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The New Great Game: The West, Uyghers and China
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Uyghur Region and Eurasia. Credit: Mehmud Gallery
Uyghur Region and Eurasia. Credit: Mehmud Gallery

The control of Central Asia has been a core part of international relations since the “Great Game” between Tsarist Russia and the British Empire. At the turn of the 20th century, John Halford Mackinder developed the “Heartland Theory,” which revolves around the concept of a pivot area/Heartland, that covers Eastern Europe, Central Asia, Western China and most of Eastern Russia. The theory determines that whichever regional power controls Eurasia will determine that country’s supremacy over world politics.

Mackinder’s theory had widespread traction. It was influential to Nazi military planners, and the “Heartland” concept has been apparent in United States foreign policy since President Jimmy Carter’s term in the White House, when the US backed the mujahideen in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union. Mackinder’s theory was pushed by then National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brezinski, a voice still listened to in Washington D.C. circles, and took on renewed relevance following the end of the Cold War.

As a leaked 1992 Pentagon document states: “Our first objective is to prevent the reemergence of a rival that poses a threat on the territory of the former Soviet Union. This is a dominant consideration… and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power…Our strategy must now refocus on precluding the emergence of any potential future global competitor.”

A decade after this policy objective, US forces were in Afghanistan, and in 2010, the Obama administration launched its “pivot to Asia” foreign policy initiative, its very name drawn from Mackinder’s Heartland theory.

A clear aim is that the US and its allies – embodied in NATO – are trying to contain China’s ascendancy to retain political and financial power. There is the realization that power is shifting from the West to the East. The US strategy has been proactive, trying to shore up its allies in China’s immediate geographical vicinity, and been aggressive in its military build up, particularly in Asia Pacific. But in Central Asia, the US is on the back-step, unable to undermine Russia and China’s strong positioning, evident in the Shanghai Cooperation Council (SCC). Outside of the SCC, in the immediate area, the US is reducing troops in Afghanistan – albeit to retain a presence until 2024 – and is not as strategic a partner with Pakistan as in the past. The US is struggling to have “full spectrum dominance” in Central Asia, and economically has been losing out to China, in goods and services, to accessing hydrocarbons. Furthermore, China is cementing its position in the area through its Silk Road Economic Belt, which is to run from China to Eastern Europe, and ramping up ties and investment with neighboring Pakistan, evidenced in President Xi’s visit to Islamabad with pledges of some US$46 billion. Additionally, China is challenging the financial status quo regionally and further afield through the launch of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AAIB).

Back to the Future

American policymakers were aware that exerting US influence in Central Asia was going to be an uphill struggle, if not mission impossible. Washington would not be able to have a military presence with the same capabilities as in the Asia-Pacific, in Taiwan, South Korea and Japan. Moscow would not stand for it, and neither would Beijing. Afghanistan and Pakistan – known as AfPak – therefore become focuses during and after the Cold War.

The NATO presence in Afghanistan has been devastating for the country, and the US’ acquiescence in its relationship with Pakistan and its infamous intelligence service the ISI – which has co-opted and used Islamic terrorist organizations for its own ends to fight India in Kashmir, and retain influence in Afghanistan – has created fertile ground for extremists in the region.

As leaked documents have shown, this has been both intentional and unintentional, with the US on one hand waging its “Global War on Terrorism” and on the other creating the conditions for the rise of Islamic terrorism – for instance ISIS spawned from the battlefields of Iraq – and directly working with and through its allies with Islamic terrorist groups.

In the wake of the Cold War, Britain and the US – along with Arab Gulf allies – utilized Islamist groups, including fighters affiliated with Al-Qaeda, for its own foreign policy objectives in Bosnia, Kosovo and Chechnya, documented in Mark Curtis’ book, which draws on declassified documents, Secret Affairs: Britain’s Collusion with Radical Islam.

As cited in written evidence by Nafeez Ahmed to a UK Parliamentary inquiry in 2010: “According to Graham Fuller, former Deputy Director of the CIA’s National Council on Intelligence, the selective sponsorship of al-Qaeda terrorist groups after the Cold War continued in the Balkans and Central Asia to intensify the rollback of Russian and Chinese power (2000): ‘The policy of guiding the evolution of Islam and of helping them against our adversaries worked marvelously well in Afghanistan against the Red Army. The same doctrines can still be used to destabilize what remains of Russian power, and especially to counter the Chinese influence in Central Asia.'”

Covert operations programs have also been carried out by British and American intelligence that supports certain Islamist opposition groups in the Middle East to curtail Iranian and Syrian influence in the region. This came to a head during the uprisings in the Arab world from 2011 onwards, with Western intelligence agencies working with funders Saudi Arabia and Qatar to develop the militant opposition against the regime of Bashar Assad in Syria, as has been documented here, here and here. Turkey, a NATO member, has also been instrumental in supplying Islamic rebels in Syria, including ISIS (the Islamic State).

The move on Xinjiang

At the other end of the “Heartland”, Eastern Europe, the US and Europe have been involved in regime change in Ukraine, utilizing non-governmental organizations (NGOs) to undermine the Kiev government away from the Russian orbit, and through backing pro-Western politicians, despite in cases their openly neo-Nazi and fascist sympathies. A propaganda war has been waged in the West that has ignored the West’s subversive policies in Ukraine to primarily demonize Russia, framing the conflict as one of “freedom” and “democracy” and leading to renewed discourse of a “New Cold War”. Such a policy has had mixed success, still being played out, but is a clear geo-political attempt to undermine Moscow in the public eye as well as economically through sanctions. What is notable in the Ukraine arena is that the US has not been directly involved militarily, relying on proxies and covert operations, to not risk an all-out war with Russia.

Given the West’s track record with co-opting and using Islamist groups for its own ends, as well as undermining democratically elected governments that do not see eye-to-eye with the US since World War II through coups and assassinations, it is far from conspiratorial to suggest that such tactics will be employed in the future against Chinese interests.

As such, Xinjiang is China’s Achilles heel, bordering on Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan, as well as having abundant hydrocarbons and being a key transit hub for the Silk Road Economic Belt. As mentioned, the US is attempting to contain China in the Asia-Pacific, and while it is strengthening its relationship with India, does not have the same capabilities in Central Asia, which will force the US to act clandestinely through NGOs, pro-democracy organizations, and Islamist groups. For instance, the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), which is funded by the US government and has been linked to subversive measures in numerous countries, including most recently in Hong Kong, is a sponsor of the World Uygher Conference and the Uygher American Association.

This is given further credence by the Uyghers not having the same ‘appeal’ as the Tibetans when it comes to “information politics” and winning “hearts and minds” in the West. The Uygher diaspora has attempted to portray their political grievances as self-determination causes, ‘minority rights’ and ‘human rights’ to capitalize on media coverage in the West. It is a classic method to highlight a cause in the eyes of the Western public, concerned about human rights, women’s rights and so on, the “softer” foreign policy issues. This was evidenced in the media’s use of humanitarian intervention to justify the US-led invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, such as by focusing on women’s rights and bringing “freedom,” thereby simplifying the complex reasons for US military engagement.

But while the Uygher cause will not gain the same traction in the West as Tibet arguably has – for one it is an under-covered area in the media, and secondly the Uyghers’ Islamic identity can be considered a “turn off” for liberal mainstream media – it is becoming a more important issue in Islamic extremist circles.

A Jihadi Front Against China?

Beijing is aware of the international dimension of Islamic terrorism, pressurizing Central Asian states to ban Jihadist groups such as the Turkistan Islamic Party (TIP) in Pakistan, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU), the Islamic Jihad Union, and the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM).

The TIP is linked to the IMU, which is pushing for the jihad to go beyond Pakistan and Afghanistan into China. Its mufti, Abu Zar al-Burmi, has become a prominent Jihadi leader in Pakistan with an anti-China message that is reportedly gaining in popularity. In 2013, in a speech called “A Lost Nation”, al-Burmi said the “mujahideen should know that the coming enemy of the Ummah (the Islamic community) is China, which is developing its weapons day after day to fight the Muslims.” In the speech, al-Burmi stated Muslims should kidnap and kill Chinese citizens and target Chinese companies, while blasting the Pakistani-Chinese relationship.

In May, 2014, Reuters briefly interviewed TIP’s leader Abdullah Mansour, who echoed al-Burmi’s statements. “The fight against China is our Islamic responsibility and we have to fulfill it. China is not only our enemy, but it is the enemy of all Muslims … We have plans for many attacks in China,” he told Reuters. “We have a message to China that East Turkestan people and other Muslims have woken up. They cannot suppress us and Islam any more. Muslims will take revenge.”

It is highly probable, lacking other options and not able to go head to head with Beijing, that the US will capitalize on such sentiments, urging directly and indirectly attacks against Chinese interests in Central Asia and China itself, as well as further afield, utilizing networks in Pakistan and the Middle East.

A scenario, going by past example, would be to force Beijing’s hand into harsh crackdowns against the Uyghers in Xinjiang, thereby providing ample propaganda opportunities for Jihadi groups to label China as an enemy of Islam, for Western media to highlight the Uygher’s aspirations for self-determination, and draw China into a costly war that will destabilize the Silk Road Economic Belt initiative.

The US appears to have already utilized such a strategy. “Between 1996 and 2002, we, the United States, planned, financed and helped execute every single uprising and terrorism related scheme in Xinjiang (aka East Turkistan and Uyghurstan)”, said Sibel Deniz Edmonds, a former Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) translator and founder of the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition (NSWBC), under oath in the US.

Militant Uyghers in the AfPak arena pose the closest geopolitical threat in this regard. Elements of Pakistan’s ISI in conjunction with financiers in the Arabian Gulf, as well as through establish networks with Western intelligence agencies, would pose the greatest concern. Indeed, as in the past when Islamabad played off British and American interests to maximum advantage, so could it play off its main financial backers, China, Saudi Arabia and the US.

Turkey is also a player to be watched in this regard, trying on the one hand to not sour growing ties with China, and on the other keep its affinities and further strengthen relations with Turkic groups. Istanbul has played a major role in the rebel movement against Assad, while the country is home to a large Uygher diaspora. Furthermore, with Turkey a transit hub for rebel groups to enter Syria and Iraq, it has played a role in enabling Chinese Muslims and Uyghers to join ISIS and become radicalized.

Another “Great Game” is unfolding, and the Heartland of Eurasia will be a key arena in the battle for the US to retain a unipolar world, or make room for a multilateral one, which Washington will fight on all fronts to ensure does not happen.

As Brzezinski wrote in The Grand Chessboard, echoing Mackinder: “The US, a non-Eurasian power, now enjoys international primacy, with its power directly deployed on three peripheries of the Eurasian continent […]. But it is on the globe’s most important playing field – Eurasia – that a potential rival to America might at some point arise”.


Paul Cochrane is a freelance journalist based in Beirut, where he has lived since 2002. He covers the Middle East for specialized publications, business magazines and newspapers. Mr Cochrane’s work has been featured in over 70 publications, including Reuters, Money Laundering Bulletin, Accountancy Futures, Commercial Crime International and Petroleum Review. Educated in Britain, Mr Cochrane earned a master’s degree in Middle Eastern Studies at the American University of Beirut. See: Email contact: [email protected]

• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Central Asia, China, Uyghurs 
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  1. rod1963 says:

    The U.S. can try to stir up and support the Uyghers, but I doubt it will work. The Chinese do not labor under the stupidity of PC/MC and our limited rules of engagement. If the Uyghers really manage to piss off the Chinese, they will respond with the sort of military force against them that will make the Muslims regret they every tried anything.

    Remember what they did to the Tibetans and that is mild compared to what they will do when you threaten the economic or political stability of China.

    • Replies: @Realist
    , @another fred
  2. Realist says:

    “The U.S. can try to stir up and support the Uyghers, but I doubt it will work. The Chinese do not labor under the stupidity of PC/MC and our limited rules of engagement.”

    I agree but that is what an average higher IQ does for a country.

  3. Kiza says:

    USUK support of Uygher terrorism is a no-brainer and it is not even new. Simply, Chinese Xinjiang is exactly as Russian Chechnya. Same old, same old: Saudi money combined with USUK Know-How in terrorism and destabilization.

    This statement of the author is a little off:
    “… Uyghers’ Islamic identity can be considered a “turn off” for liberal mainstream media …”
    The Islamic identity has never been a turn-off for the West, and even clear acts of terrorism become justified, as the cases the author lists show: Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya. Thus, the horrible acts of terrorism against the Chinese civilians perpetrated by the Uygher extremists routinely turn into the “struggle for freedom” in the Western MSM. My enemy’s terrorist is my freedom-seeker.

  4. Cochrane’s analysis is extremely good. American readers need to learn more about Mackinder’s Eurasian Heartland theory, since that is the guiding principle behind US foreign policy today.

    There is, however, one possibility Cochrane overlooks here: once the Dalai Llama dies, the US could radicalize the Tibetans and militarize that conflict. Because they are Bhuddist rather than Moslem, they might make a more sympathetic impression on Western audiences. The CIA has had a close relationship with Dalai Llama for years, but it seem the DL has been against militarizing the situation. Once he goes, that could quickly change.

  5. Tom Welsh says:

    Thanks for the map! A really useful adjunct to the article, as even educated Westerners are often none too sure about the relative sizes and positions of (for example) the seven “-stands”.

    The map makes it clear that the only Western access to the Uighur zone is through five of those -stans, of which only Pakistan and Afghanistan are currently accessible to Americans. So the future struggle will inevitably focus on all seven -stans, plus the neighbouring nations of India and Iran.

    • Replies: @ltlee
  6. Seraphim says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    @once the Dalai Llama dies, the US could radicalize the Tibetans and militarize that conflict.

    It is possible, on the contrary, that the present Muslim-Buddhist conflict, which is an old one, would be exacerbated. The Tibetans might as well revert on their Shambala mythology, which is definitely anti-Islamic. Do not forget that Buddhism is a Chinese religion too and the Tibetans are more likely to finally incline towards the Chinese (who keep a tight control of the Tibet, anyway)than towards the Americans, especially if they would back the Muslims.

    • Replies: @Wally
  7. Tom Welsh says:

    Another thought that this article provokes is the possibility of retaliation in kind. If the Americans try to stir up anti-Chinese (and anti-Russian) terrorism among the Uighurs, several Asian governments might be tempted to point out the unwisdom of throwing stones while living in a glasshouse. After all, the myth of the “melting pot”, whereby all immigrants to the USA are swiftly assimilated and lose their ancestral cultures and nationalisms, has been discredited. Not only Black people but also “Latinos” (essentially Spanish speakers) have very distinct identities and interests. Of course, it is not only ethnic minorities who might become strongly disaffected from the US federal government: all US citizens outside the one percent have legitimate grievances.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  8. Islam expands everywhere. In muslim countries Islam expands in the sense that those countries have become much more influenced by islamism in the last decades and the non-muslim share of the population has fallen and that the non-muslims get more and more harassed. In non-muslim countries it expands in the way that the safer of the muslim minority rises and terror. This is happening in China like in Russia, India, Europe etc.
    The muslim terrorism in China is cruel in a special way. By killing the victims with long knives at train stations the victims – which is the Han Chinese – seem to be so physical weak. It is somehow degrading.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  9. Kiza says:
    @Tom Welsh

    Hello Tom, I sincerely like your insights.

    Also, sorry to labor this point, but there is a real problem with this idea that the Muslim religion is any kind of turn-off in the West. How it worked in Kosovo, for example, is that they were the “oppressed Kosovars”, not Muslims. Likewise, Chinese Uyghers will be presented as the “oppressed Uyghers” or as an “oppressed Turkish minority in China”. The author and some commentators are really underestimating the spin meisters of the MSM in their ability to convince the unwashed Western masses that white is black and black is white. It happens every day, routinely.

    • Replies: @Tom Welsh
  10. @rod1963

    No doubt the Chinese will crack down on anyone who threatens them, just as we, and ME allies, will continue to pursue “extremists” such as ISIL and the Taliban. Neither we nor the Chinese have any choice as the fundamental Islamist position is surrender/convert or die.

    But we err if we believe the Islamist impotence is permanent. Advances in genetic manipulation such as CRISPR-Cas9 will give them access to terror weapons on an apocalyptic scale. Keeping Iran from developing a nuke is child’s play compared to preventing the development of these weapons. Crackdowns on the Islamists will only give them more justification for the release of bioweapons.

    See the cat? See the cradle?

  11. Tom Welsh says:

    I do not argue that the Western MSM have a stranglehold on the opinions of the majority. (Although, in the West, they are apt to pride themselves on being very frequently and scrupulously washed – and then anointed with various chemical unguents in pursuit of the all-important physical attractiveness). But I am not sure what the pay-off is. The Western masses are already pig-ignorant and very happy to support the mass-murder or even genocide of foreigners. But that, in itself, doesn’t harm any Asian nation. So far, Western public opinion has mattered insofar as it has allowed their governments to murder defenseless people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, etc. But the use of armed force against China, Russia, or even India, Pakistan or Iran, would be far more risky – indeed, probably too risky even for the lunatics in power.

  12. Vinegar says:

    If we keep meddling in other countries’ business, it’s going to come back to us ten-fold. It’s probably already too late to avoid that.

    I think the puppetmasters who pull the strings of our naive and arrogant puppet leadership desire exactly that. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that we’ve been set up – that we’ve only managed to piss off the entire world and ensure that they hate us, and for dubious benefit to ourselves.

    What have we gained? A lot of oil that we really didn’t need, and the continuation of our doomed-to-fail petrodollar hegemony.

    What have we done with it? Built unsustainable and far-flung car-dependent suburbs and filled our cheaply-built homes with useless plastic status-symbol crap — what Kunstler calls, “the greatest misallocation of resources in the history of the world.”

    In light of this, when the dollar crashes, when we’re quite literally eating each other in the streets, starvation, race war… the rest of the world will just point and laugh.

    “They deserve it!”, they’ll say.

    Then comes armed invasion from the United Nations under the aegis of restoring order.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  13. Vinegar says:

    I believe there’s a morality tale at work here.

    People seem to think that we’re immune from the sort of chaos, death, and destruction we’ve helped to impose on other countries – whether directly or otherwise. The idea of “American exceptionalism”.

    Why should we be immune? We’ve been living high on the hog for far too long, and consuming far more than our share of the world’s resources. We’ve become fat, arrogant, and stupid. Who in their right mind would respect what we’ve become or desire to keep feeding us valuable resources?

    The more we delude ourselves with grandiose ideas about ‘pivoting to Asia’, the more our fate is sealed. I can almost guarantee that we’ll get our asses kicked in the next military conflict, and once the illusion of military superiority is gone, the world will drop us like a hot potato. I’ve been saying this since 2005 when it first occured to me.

    We’re due for a culling. It’s obvious to me that it’s being arranged.

    • Replies: @another fred
  14. HungWeiLo says:

    The map of Uyghur’s region is actually incorrect. North Xinjiang is steppe/desert and has always been inhabited by nomadic turks and mongols, while the southern regions are oases in the tarim basin, inhabited by genetically mixed tocharian/iranian/ugyhur peoples who were settled around the silk road cities of the subregion. After famine and the bloody conquest of the area destroyed the dzungar khanate(western mongols), the steppe was depopulated and irreligious kazakhs and settled chinese along with loyal mongols and manchurians split the area, creating a huge “””native””” chinese population since most of the surviving indigenous mongol clans who actually lived there were part of a migration to the pontic steppe state of Kalmykia, which is now part of Russia. No matter how much the turk/muslim tries, they they will never manage to get the whole state, and the chinese government is actively hostile to all muslim minorities given their natural violent expansionist behavior, so china’s normal placation attempts towards most minorities with the carrot will be accompanied by a very large stick, given the demographic power of the han living in the state, mirroring the burmese crackdown on the rohingya, but far more under wraps.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  15. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Tibetian Buddhism has a long history of co option by the imperial aims .It has blood on its hand.It reached Mongolian border and the Steppe of Central Asia in 7 th century .It banned certain variant of Buddhism that was prevalent in Tibet,China and Central Asia. Today’s Tibet under China was China under Tibet in 7th- 9th century.

    Biological weapons targeting selected ethnicites were addressed and basically recommended by the neocons in one of their position papers written in 1996 or 2000 ( PNAC doc)

    Israel at one time was interested in developing this in S Africa to target the locals

    Currently while Muslim are waiting to convert the Han Chinese, the Han Chinese are forcing them to observe Han’s custom,use Chinese dialect,wear Chinese dress ,and forsake the local traditions,religion,and cultural signs . Fasting has been banned by Chinese government .They cant travel abroad for religious reasons .

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  16. Wally says:

    Yes, and I doubt the Tibetans really think much of US gay marriage or the US applauded sex change surgeries.

    A fact: the US is disliked more & more for so many reasons.

  17. @Vinegar

    “We’re due for a culling. It’s obvious to me that it’s being arranged.”

    I doubt that anybody with any brains thinks it has to be arranged, just planned for.

    Hell, I tell my children to plan for it.

    For thousands of years cities were population sinks*, then, with the advent of modern sanitation and antibiotics in the last 200 years, cities began to be sources of population. Now the cities are teeming masses of incubators for the coming plagues, many of them useless for anything else.

    “It is useless to see the future and screech at it…”

    * The cities were sinks because they only grew because people moved from the country faster than they died in the cities, with the advent of sanitation and antibiotics they began to grow because people were born there faster than they died.

    • Replies: @another fred
  18. @another fred

    Vinegar, I did not mean to say you don’t have any brains, I meant people in high places, privy to information the rest of us do not have.

  19. @Wally

    Why on earth, do you figure, would they care very much? These people have a lot of basic national interest issues to worry about. I doubt they like SSM and whatnot, but I also doubt they lose a lot of sleep over somebody thousands of miles away doing it.

    • Replies: @Wally
  20. @Seamus Padraig

    Militarising the Tibetan conflict sounds nice and all, except the PLA has at least 1 man under arms for every 3 Tibetans in the world: men, women, and children. Any such conflict would be ridiculously one-sided.

  21. CK says:

    So there is now an Asian/European equivalent to the world bank
    an Asian/Russian equivalent to the IMF.
    Coming soon will be a non-American equivalent to the BIS
    and an Asian competitor to SWIFT (
    When Mackinder wrote his thesis about the hub and the periphery, land transport across the heart of the world was by mule, camel and foot. It was as it had been since the origins of the original silk road, so a naval power could indeed impede trade and travel and exert control over the heartland from the periphery.
    Image a high speed, unified gauge rail line running from Lisbon to Seoul, with arterials north to Leningrad and Murmansk, south to Brindisi and west to the Chunnel. Add to that 6 to 8 lane super highways and other useful infrastructure profit sustainers. Someones in Russia India China and Germany are thinking very Large indeed.
    The first rail trip from China to western Europe has already happened and it was not even a unified gauge rail line the whole way. 20 days, versus 35 by container ship, 40+% faster.
    The economics is irrefutable.

    • Replies: @Vinegar
    , @Seraphim
    , @PandaAtWar
  22. @Vinegar

    If we keep meddling in other countries’ business, it’s going to come back to us ten-fold.

    How so? China has been playing its neighbors against each other for thousands of years, and it’s grown steadily larger, both in population and territorial terms.

    • Replies: @Vinegar
  23. @Greg Pandatshang

    Militarising the Tibetan conflict sounds nice and all, except the PLA has at least 1 man under arms for every 3 Tibetans in the world: men, women, and children. Any such conflict would be ridiculously one-sided.

    It would involve low intensity warfare, rather than an all-out conventional attack. They would bide their time until the occurrence of instability in China. Finland obtained its independence largely as a result of the Bolshevik Revolution.

    • Replies: @CaoMengDe
  24. Vinegar says:

    Yep. And what city is right in the middle of it all?

    Why, their new shiny new city, or Eurasian capital if you will: Astana, Kazakhstan

    Looks like The Guardian even did a story about it two days ago:

  25. CaoMengDe says:
    @Johann Ricke


    Finland obtained its independence largely as a result of the Bolshevik Revolution.

    Finland retained its independence largely as a result of the NOT getting swallowed up by USSR during Winter War.

    as for

    bide their time until the occurrence of instability in China

    , it’s gonna be a long wait

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  26. Vinegar says:
    @Johann Ricke

    Probably when they stop accepting U.S. paper in exchange for real goods.

    And China could very well completely disintegrate too.

    In fact, I think the plan is for every currency/government in the world to go tits up, but some places will fare better than others.

    The people least exposed to the current “beast system” will fare the best.

    After that, people/locales/countries will reorganize around a more sensible and sustainable system… and the game will begin again.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  27. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    What I don’t get is why it was necessary to misspell “uyghur” as “uygher”? Does this unconventional spelling bring any new meaning?

  28. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The Mackinder theory has sounded attractive and has spawned many an imitator such as Brzezinski. But is it in fact true? We’ve gained control of Afghanistan-sort of-and that’s been the springboard to what, exactly? Times have changed with modes of travel, warfare, information, level of development of the various countries all having advanced since then. Capturing the riches of the world may no longer be feasible in the modern world, seeing as it’s actually something of a pirate’s dream only on a grand scale.
    The use of Islamic zealots as pawns in our games may garner short term results but in the long run is bound to create blowback that’ll create regrettable results. The schemers probably pat themselves on their collective backs for their cleverness for all this but will be gone later when things metastasize. These clever people are pretty good at getting a lot of people killed and thwarting their development; not that they care, of course.

  29. Seraphim says:

    Yes, the US shot themselves in the foot with the stupid embrace and promotion of gay marriage and castration (the so-called sex change surgery).
    Look at the reception given to these follies in Africa:

    “African leaders counter Obama’s ‘ideological colonization’ in Kenya”


    Nairobi, Kenya, Jul 28, 2015 / 02:25 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- U.S. president Barack Obama has come under fire from African politicians and Church leaders after advocating for gay rights in Kenya this weekend – a practice Pope Francis has referred to as “ideological colonization.”
    “Even if people don’t like us for it, our Church has always said homosexuality is unnatural and marriage is between a man and a woman,” Cardinal John Onaiyekan of Abuja told the News Agency of Nigeria July 26.
    He stressed that “there is no question of the Catholic Church changing its positions on this matter.”
    Archbishop Charles Palmer-Buckle of Accra, a Ghanaian, also weighed in on the U.S. president’s comments, emphasizing that for the Church, homosexual activity is both contrary to the law of God and “anti-human,” Breitbart News reports.
    He said that although the Church respects homosexual individuals since they are created in the image and likeness of God, it cannot support homosexual acts and is committed to upholding “the fundamental truth about marriage and family life.”…
    In his July 25 speech at a joint news conference with his Kenyan counterpart, President Uhuru Kenyatta, Obama spoke out about the importance of gay rights, despite requests from Kenya’s leaders to not address the issue. Homosexual acts are illegal in Kenya, as well as several other African countries….
    Prior to Obama’s visit, 700 evangelical pastors wrote an open letter asking the president not to use the trip as an occasion to push the homosexual agenda.
    Mark Kariuki, who leads of an alliance of 38,000 churches and 10 million Kenyan Christians, was the primary author of the letter.
    “We do not want (Obama) to come and talk on homosexuality in Kenya or push us to accepting that which is against our faith and culture,” Kariuki wrote.
    In response to Obama’s comments, Kenyatta noted that while the U.S. and Kenya hold many values and goals in common, such as democracy and entrepreneurship, gay rights is not one of them.
    “It is very difficult for us to be able to impose on people that which they themselves do not accept. This is why I repeatedly say for Kenyans today, the issue of gay rights is generally a non-issue. We want to focus on other areas.”….
    And Bishop Badejo, the Nigerian who chairs communications for the Symposium of Episcopal Conferences of Africa and Madagascar (SECAM), said in a February interview with Aleteia that the U.S. has made its help in fighting the radical Islamist group Boko Haram contingent on the Nigeria’s support of homosexual acts….
    Bishop Badejo called the U.S. decision “criminal,” saying that if the West boasts of the value they place on human freedom, they shouldn’t try to impose values on Africa with which its people do not agree.

    From the politely diplomatese “not an issue”, to “criminal decision”! The Americans stepped on a wasp nest.

  30. Wally says:
    @Greg Pandatshang

    You missed the point utterly.

    They do not want what the US would necessarily bring them.
    Got it?

    Now go and read the article under discussion.

  31. Kiza says:

    This is a nice article by Paul Cochrane. But here is another one by Eric Draitser, definitely worth reading if you are interested in the topic of subversion of China:

    It appears that China has followed the example of Russia and introduced a law requiring registration of NGOs financed from foreign countries. Russia, has of course, followed suit of US which has exactly the same kind of law, but listening to NED, HRW and the rest of the US alphabet soup NGOs you would be excused for thinking that only Russia invented such law to hinder foreign interference in the domestic politics.

    In short, as long as Russia and China use US$ as their reserve currency, they are helping US interfere almost cost free in their political system by limitless printing of US$ and distribution through NGOs. This worked throughout Ukraine, Russia (in Moscow and in Chechnya), China (Hong Kong and XinJiang) and any other countries wishing to be independent of the “International Community”. Use US$ and you are paying for your own subjugation.

  32. Seraphim says:

    The apparition of Mackinder’s “The Pivot of History” in 1904 was not by chance. It was certainly re-asserting the objectives of the British Empire and of the still hidden USA policies towards Russia. Russia has reached the Pacific and built the Trans Siberian and the Chinese Eastern Railways. Britain moved quickly “to restrict naval competition by keeping the Russian Pacific seaports of Vladivostok and Port Arthur from their full use”, by concluding the Anglo-Japanese Alliance of 1902 and pushing Japan to war against Russia, abetted by the Americans:

    “[Theodore] Roosevelt was influenced by a group of friends which included Brooks Adams and Adm. Alfred Thayer Mahan. In a prophecy, perhaps ahead of his time, Adams had concluded that future conflicts would pit a declining Britain against a rising Russia. Adams felt that America would have to enter the lists in order to maintain a balance of power which would prevent Russia from gaining a preponderant position. He felt that dominance by either Russia or Germany would be ominous for America, with Russia, because of its larger size, a greater long term threat. He envisioned China as the focal point of the struggle. Seeing the competition as between Teuton and Slav, Mahan saw Russia, the great land power, as the more potent long term threat. Mahan also saw China as focal point of the struggle, with the means of containment of Russia as the strength of the sea powers, primarily Britain, Germany, the United States and Japan. (THEODORE ROOSEVELT AND THE RUSSO-JAPANESE WAR) @

    It is known that the Japanese were helped by American (Jewish) bankers to the tenor of hundreds of millions of dollars in loans.

    “One of Mackinder’s personal objectives was to warn Britain that its traditional reliance on sea power would become a weakness as improved land transport opened up the Heartland for invasion and / or industrialisation…
    Mackinder identified the geopolitical nightmare that was to haunt the world’s two sea powers during the first half of the twentieth century — Great Britain and later on the United States. The nightmare was that if Germany or Russia were allowed to control East Europe then this could lead to the domination of the Eurasian land mass by one of these two powers as a prelude to mastery of the world.” (Wikipedia).

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  33. @CaoMengDe

    , it’s gonna be a long wait

    It’s not unheard of. Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for 300 years. Then Greek patriots seized their moment. Vietnam was a Chinese province for 1000 years, and yet kept breaking free. Proto-Koreans repeatedly ejected Chinese imperial troops from their soil over a period of 1000 years.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @PandaAtWar
  34. denk says:

    the west, principally the ukus, started its depopulation wars on chinese with the opium genocide, they’ve never looked back since.
    the opium genocide reduced 3/4 of chinese to zombies, until this day they havent fully shaken off the after effect of that heinous crime.

    those charming fellows in langley followed up with another *biggie* , the 1965 genocide in indonesia, until this day *company* veterans still reminisce on their *master piece* with fondness.
    in one of the century’s greatest genocide, aka *cia’s greatest hit*, over 3m indonesian peasants , ethnic chinese were butchered by drug crazed muslim death squads.
    they even orchestrated an encore in 1998, again lettting loose muslim death squads on the ethnic chinese populations, thousands were killed and gang raped in the most horrendous manner in a murderous orgy which lasted for weeks.
    another pogrom on chinese occured in malaysia 1963, most likely another cia *master piece*.

    while being butchered like sacrificial lambs oversea,
    even in their home land the hans aint safe from cia’s death squads.
    uighurs violence have spread from xinjiang to all corners of china.
    the cops in beijing started carrying sidearms last yr for the first time, after spades of deadly attacks by uighurs death squads.

    thank you very much murkka !
    ever since your war OF terror started in 2001, the world has never known a day of peace and harmony !
    these days no corner of the planet is safe from these jihadists death squads except in murkka itself, aka the *great satan* amongst muslims,….i wonder why,
    hehehehe !

    the shills are crawling all over this thread !

  35. Seraphim says:
    @Johann Ricke

    And you really think that the Chinese do not have contingency plans for various “opportunity” scenarios?

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  36. @Anonymous

    Currently while Muslim are waiting to convert the Han Chinese,

    The Han Chinese can’t wait being converted by the religion of peace…

    Fasting has been banned by Chinese government

    Source, please.

    They cant travel abroad for religious reasons .

    Such as cut some random chap’s head off?

    • Replies: @KA
  37. @CK

    Someones in Russia India China and Germany are thinking very Large indeed.

    Dunno how, but for about decade or so the MSM has succefully convinced the world’s populace that whenever the word China is mentioned, the word India must be added as a rule, as if whenever Germany is mentioned, Albania must be mentioned in the same breath. It’s a miracle how MSM managed to have pulled that out.

    India “think” big?

    India doesn’t think. It talks. India does what it’s told by their Anglo masters. As usual it talks aloud long before it starts to do. When it comes to independent thinking, India only thinks in term of where it can get its next lunch from.

  38. @Johann Ricke

    Don’t hold your breath for it. It won’t happen unless thermonuclear WW3 breaks out.

    Vietnam and Korean penninsula were far from priority in eyes of Imperial China, drastically different from Greece to Ottoman.

  39. @Seraphim

    The 21st century is likely to play out between Sino-Germania (possiblely plus Franco)Eurasia continental power axis Vs. American-Japan (possiblely plus British) Pacific sea power axis, if Germany breaks through to become independent.

    Despite having quite a large land mass and nuke stock pile, Russia seems to Panda just too weak economically (e.g. Russia’s innovations/patents as measured by WIPO are trivial compared to other major powers), particularly in the long run.

  40. @Vinegar

    And China could very well completely disintegrate too.

    That’ll be a theoritically remote “could”, but not “very well”, nor “completely”.

    Too many people and events tried and failed in the last 2,000 years…

    Say, the “completely disintergration” of world’s single largest high IQ mono-raical group that basically invented the words of “Nationalism” and “State Bureaucracy” would take some divine force to be honest.

    It didn’t happen even at China’s lowest historical point in her 2,000 years history being an intergrated empire – the end of 19th century to the 1st half of 20th century, when other newly-industrialised major powers could theoritically overwelme Manchu-led agricultural Qing.

    And any sane mind shouldn’t hope for it either, as that spells WW3 without a shred of doubt.

  41. ltlee says:

    Many westerners have the wrong idea that Xiangjiang belongs to the Uighurs. But they were immigrants to the region.

    1. The following time line 1755 – 1759 is extracted from “THE GREAT GAME” by Peter Hopkirk:
    1755: Qing defeated the Djungarian Empire which initiated the hostility by invading Tibet at 1717. The Djungarian Empire were then splitted into 4 parts.
    1756: The four parts rebels.
    1757-1758: Qing sent an army to quell the rebellion. Brutal killing by the Qing army, together with small pox epidemic, killed the bulk of Djungarian population.
    1759: Xinjiang became part of China. Qing repopulated the regions with immigrants including the Uighurs from near and afar .

    2. Jack Chen, a Chinese American writer provided some more details on the aftermath upon the disintegration of the Djungarian empire.
    “Djungaris was then divided adminstrately into Seven Circles:… Military settlements were built and colonists brought in from other parts of China… Many Uighur settlers were brought in as farmers from Kashgaris.” (THE SINKIANG STORY)

  42. ltlee says:
    @Tom Welsh

    The map is misleading. Most of the today’s Xinjiang belonged to the Zungarian (Mongolian) empire. China defeated the Zungarian empire during the 18th century and Uyghurs moved in as immigrants.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  43. @HungWeiLo

    That’s true.

    gGenerally speaking, the Northern Xinjiang has been under the influences of Han Chinese migrants both historically and now, relatively to other minority tribes.

    The Ugyhurs can’t even claim the South Xinjiang for their own but perhaps some pockets of it due to residence instead of the point of origin.

    Now MSM have whitewashed the entire Western world that somehow “oppressed Ugyhurs are indigenous to Xinjiang ” and “they can legitly claim whole of it as East Turkistan“.

    Yeah right, just like indigenous Turks in Western Germany can somehow legitly claim the entire Mannheim, the Black Forest, and Stuttgart as “West Turkistan” as well. LMAO.

  44. @Erik Sieven

    The muslim terrorism in China is cruel in a special way. By killing the victims with long knives at train stations the victims – which is the Han Chinese – seem to be so physical weak. It is somehow degrading.

    Even though the newly-pacified Han may appear physically weak, they were some of the most fearsome and hardened warriors traditionally if forced into the corner. The Han Chinese were the original inventors of “Bushido” (the Japanese translation of the original Mandarin – Wushi Dao ; the Way of Warriors, a fringe of Neo-Confuciusm in imperial China at a time). Japan copied the concept entirely making it mainstream in domestic Japan, and has made it known to the West as its own thing in the modern era.

    If given free hand by the Chinese Communist Party that is proactively protecting these muslims in in a sense for the sake of stability, the local Han could squash the terrorists easily even though being physically weak.

    • Replies: @Erik Sieven
  45. @Greg Pandatshang

    Militarising the Tibetan conflict sounds nice and all, except the PLA has at least 1 man under arms for every 3 Tibetans in the world: men, women, and children. Any such conflict would be ridiculously one-sided.

    I never meant to suggest that the Tibetans could win–probably one important reason why the Dalai Llama has avoided going down that route. But once he’s gone, The Exceptional Empire might not care. What do Tibetans really mean to Washington? Just more pawns in the Great Game! They might come to see a Tibetan war as a way of

    a.) disrupting silk road and pipeline construction

    b.) forcing China to divert more resources away from productive investment into security, and

    c.) creating a narrative of ‘genocidal Chinese’ that the western MSM can use to pressure Washinton’s remaining vassals not to upgrade links with China and move away from the dollar-régime.

    The whole thing would somewhat resemble their strategy in Ukraine. I mean, what chance does Ukraine have of beating Russia? Or even of long surviving without it? But it has been a good excuse to get Washington’s Euro-muppets to sanction Russia, hasn’t it?

    I also agree with Johann Ricke’s comments above (#24).

    • Replies: @Greg Pandatshang
  46. @ltlee

    Right. That Uighur region map in the OP is a fantasy land.

    Your post should be addressed to the blogger of the article, PAUL COCHRANE, who obviously is taken for ride by some random “freedom fighter”. LoL

    The Uigher region graph in the OP map in taken from here as the it says:

    Uyghur Region and Eurasia. Credit: Mehmud Gallery

    What is this Mehmud Gallery?

    Who is this Mehmud then?

    So he’s a Uighur coming from China studing as a 3rd-year student of Computer Science at University of Pittsburgh. (

    Yeah right, Mehmud, the origin author of the OP map, specialises on making some very creative computer-generated graphs though. ROFL

    Dear PAUL COCHRANE, you’d better quoting the fellow commentors here like itlee, CaoMengDe, or Panda, rather than that Mehmud bugger! LOL

    (Actually it’s also Mao’s fault. Xinjiang was called Province Xi Yu – translated as “the Western Border Province”, before 1949 PRC Maoist taking over. Then Marxist Chairman Mao changed the name into some half-arsed ridiculous “Uighur Autonomous region” for the sake of praising minorities.)

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  47. @PandaAtWar

    @ [email protected]
    I am sure they would. And I wrote “they SEEM to be…”. I guess when a group of terrorists with long knives would start attacking people in European cities the victims would react similar to the chinese victims. In the USA this would of course be something different because there are enough people with guns over there.
    The mild reaction of the communist party to this terrorism is just a shame.

  48. Actually Russia’s Ukraine issue is minor compared to what the US is doing against China at the moment:

    1. Western China: the CIA is making deals, Panda suspects, with Turkey, to turn blind eyes on the Kurd issue, in exchange for issuing fake Turkish passports to any Uighers, train them and arm them in Turkey, then send them either to ISIS or back to China as “Freedom Fighters”.

    2. Western China: The US and its MSM mag dog, alongwith those brainless Western hippies, have been working intensively on Free Tibet issue for decades now

    3. South west China: Hillary Clinton, Obama and Kerry all visited Burma in the last several years to turn it into another colour-revolution hot spot. Burma just suspends China’s oil pipe project there and arrested > 150 Chinese workers this week…

    4 South West: being the 1st US president doing so, Obama’s recent visit to India participating its National Day Parade was a field trip to tell his Modi slave to be ready when needed.

    5. South China : yeah right, after the being deadly silent for over 5 decades, all of a sudden South China Sea is “controvertial” now, what a coincidence! ROFL…Vietnam, Pinoys, Japan, Australia…need to say more?

    6. South China: anyone who thinks that Hong Kong’s recent large-scale street demonstrations is purely about democracy needs to have his brain checked.

    7. South-East China: the US just received Taiwan’s next president candidate, a Taiwan-Independence trouble maker, with exceptional high level of importance, in the hope to turn Taiwan against the mainland from 2016 after the election…

    8, East China: Daiyu Island with Japan.

    9. Northen China: the US holds regular military execises with Mongolia!, right.

    10 Northeast China: Obama has been flirting with dear leader evil Kim right after the Iran deal…who are you kidding with? ROFL

    And you “think” China’s recent(and still ongoing) stock market crash , and huge up&down swings, are a “random” thing , an “irrational behaviour purely about economic demand, supply or growth rate ” without the hands of Washington? Which planet you’re from? ROFL

    Panda can go on…

    Putin’s simple straightforward Ukraine issue is a child’s play in comparison.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  49. Ron Unz says:

    Dear PAUL COCHRANE, you’d better quoting the fellow commentors here like itlee, CaoMengDe, or Panda, rather than that Mehmud bugger! LOL

    Actually, the questionable map in question was added as a simple illustration by The Review based on a bit of very casual (and ignorant) Googling. Therefore, Mr. Cochrane bears absolutely no responsibility for its selection.

  50. @Ron Unz

    Oke, got it.

    So with lessons learned the next time The Review can quote Panda, with 3-year guarantee and no extra charge. LOL

  51. KA says:

    China bans Muslims from fasting during Ramadan, say Uighur … › News › World › Asia
    Jun 17, 2015 – China has, once again, banned Ramadan in parts of the far western Xinjiang district for Muslim party members, civil servants, students and …

    Chinese city bans Islamic beards, headwear and clothing on buses … › World › Xinjiang
    Aug 6, 2014 – A city in China’s mainly Muslim Xinjiang region has banned people with large beards or Islamic clothing from travelling on public buses, state …

    Chinese city bans beards, Islamic clothing on buses –
    Aug 6, 2014 – People wearing Islamic-style clothing and large beards are banned from riding public buses during the Xinjiang Sports Games in northwestern …

    Terrorism is a card that Chinese played well during the time when Afghan war was going on.It actively supported US and Pakistan against Soviet .

    China like most of the big countries have problems at the borders. China -Vietnam,China-Northern Mynamar,and China-Mongolia, China-Kryikighstan and there was border fights between Russia and China and China and India . Xinxiang is the border land. It was fully incorporated in China in around post WW2 when the delegation of the Xinxiang negotiating team failed to arrive to Peking to discuss with Mao and the Communist party the status . The flight carrying them met a fatal accident.

    It is not the issue of Xinxiang remaining part of China. It is the issue of the economic opportunity and issue of preservation of local culture.

    China has a choice . It can stop its marauding hungry poor impoverished greedy section of the Han people from encroaching on the local or face the revolt.

    The Chinese in US and Canada are the best example of the ethnocentric clannish behaviors.
    Indonesia and Thailand should teach America what the hungry marauding tribal poor people can do to the host country.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  52. @Ron Unz

    Commenters are correct that Uyghurs mostly live in the southern half of Xinjiang. The northern half was once Oirat and was subsequently repopulated with a mix of Uyghurs, Han Chinese, and Sinophone Muslims. Even today, the southern half has as a Uyghur majority, while the northern half probably never did. On the other hand, the Uyghurs are a large minority in the north and, moreover, the entirety of Xinjiang is designated a “Uyghur Autonomous Area” by the Chinese government. So, the map accurately reflect official boundaries, if not current or historical demography.

    Editorially, your site may wish to correct Cochrane’s spelling to Uyghur. Some people write “Uigher”, but nobody writes “Uygher”. It would be tough to take somebody seriously writing about, say, Ukraine, if they didn’t know how to spell the word Ukraine right.

  53. @Seamus Padraig

    Fair enough. It is possible that Washington will push Tibetans to militarise despite the fact that that is a bad idea for the Tibetans. That’s interesting to consider. I’m less enthusiastic about Johann Ricke’s comments. Strategically, better odds would be to keep asking for a diplomatic solution, and wait for a time when China’s leadership wants to offer an acceptable deal. That could take decades or centuries, but it’s less unlikely than a bunch of Tibetans defeating China in a war.

    The population and military imbalance between Tibet and China is obviously much greater than the imbalance between Ukraine and Russia.

  54. @KA

    The Guardian!
    and CNN!
    Let panda guess, BBC, Fox as well?

    What shining badges of uncompromising cradles of truth!


  55. @Greg Pandatshang

    You don’t count today’s population as some THE evidence of “ownership”.

    If that were the case, London should be granted as independent state of West Pakistan or West Hindustan, Southwest Germany should be West Turkistan, Detroit should be North Carribean, LA should be North Mexicana…

    That is the basic logic, particularly when the Han Chinese have been subject to 1-child policy, while the Uighurs have been encouraged to breed as many as they like in the past decades with all the goodies of free coupons of free mutton, beef, cash hangouts amongst many other priviledged minority policies of the Maoists.

    However painful you might feel, face the cold and fair reality: the Uighurs have today’s population size for a good reason that has been handed to them in a silver plate by Mao as a kind-hearted Marxist “charity” (the similar reason why India or Africa or Muslims in the West have their population sizes of today), which was not available in the entire pre-Communist history of Imperial China when the single biggest success factor, hence the legit land ownership in China or elsewhere on this blue planet, had always been the good ‘n old Darwinian force, being economics or military, of a tribe that wasn’t, isn’t, and won’t be, the Uighurs in that neighbourhood, Panda tells yer.

    As for your Uighurs or Uighers spellings, the only person who gave two hoot was the dead Red Soviet official in the 1920s who coined the word. Yeah right, so-called “Uighurs” even didn’t call themselves such for pretty much the entire history until 1920s.

    Panda doesn’t know how to sepll Ukraine, so what? is a forum for ideas and opinions, if you are excited about spellingbee contest warm-up or a summer camp, off then the 3nd door on your left. ROFL

    • Replies: @Greg Pandatshang
  56. @Greg Pandatshang

    This is embarrrassing. I made a typo in my complaint about spelling. Some people write “Uighur”. My point is that the -ur ending, not -er, is unanimous.

    P.S. Here’s a bit more anti-pedant pedantry: you might get pedants arguing that Uyghur is the wrong name for these people. It’s true that that name not applied to them before the early/mid-20th century – named after an ancient empire which is not especially closely related. Older sources call them Turki or Taranchi or Hui, &c. But still, nowadays, “Uyghur” is what everyone calls them nowadays, include self-application.

  57. Actually Panda doesn’t agree with Paul Cochrane at all.

    The Uighu/ers don’t have any weight at all in a so-called “the New Great Game”.

    In Chinese it’s called “fen fen zhong miao xa ni” – if the idoitic CCP takes a pill and moves aside, the Han peasants there would “settle the issue in any minute” ; if not the Han, the mother nature would do – the similar reason if the massive UN Aid and Medicare Programme turns off the tab, just watch the populations of India and Sub-Saraha Africa plummet.

    A possible New Great Game in the bigger scheme, as Panda mentioned earlier, would be the Middle Kingdom-Germania Eurasia land powers Vs Americana-Japan Pacific sea powers, as long as Germany manages to become independent.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  58. HungWeiLo says:
    @Ron Unz

    i got ron unz to respond through my fact-finding skills. lulz but I do respect the actual investigation of facts by your site sir.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  59. Chuck says:

    This whole Heartland concept doesn’t make much sense. Control of sea lanes has always been more important than landlocked regions. Has central asia even been a pivotal region? Maybe only when Genghis Khan was in the saddle.

    Also, China is not as opposed to the anglo-semitic empire as the western media would portray it to be. There are important links between Chinese elites and western elites going back to the fall of the Qing dynasty.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    , @Seraphim
  60. @PandaAtWar

    Dear Panda,

    What is the thing that I said that you disagree with? You sound disagreeable, but I don’t see any engagement with anything specific that I wrote.

    Also, I have no idea which words you know how to spell and don’t care. I think the author of the article itself should spell the subject of the article right.

    P.S. It is ironic but not terribly surprising that I replied below to your remark “As for your Uighurs or Uighers spellings, the only person who gave two hoot was the dead Red Soviet official in the 1920s who coined the word” prior to knowing that you had written it.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  61. @HungWeiLo

    My bad, my post 47 mistakened you with CaoMengDe.

  62. @Greg Pandatshang

    Actually you’re right, in a sense that being too fast and too eager Panda had finished replying you before realised that there was indeed no major disgreement there to start with, except that Uighu/er minor spelling drivel. Haha, my fault, apologies.

  63. @Chuck

    Disagreed. BTW are you “Chuck”of the HBD world? Panda meant THE “Chuck”? LoL

    Actually heartland concept used to make, and probably will make, an excellent sense.

    In the pre-industrialised world humans and merchandises mainly travelled by land. Sea lanes only became eminent after the discoveries of the new world and industrialisation with those machine-powered big war ships and commecial ships that have enabled transporting all-important merchandises around the world more efficeintly…

    As technologies progress, China is now in the unique position to offer the world with virtually unbeatable price, hence very feasible, of building faster, more reliable and cheaper alternative to sea lanes – land transport via (super) high speed rails across the Eurasia. Once it’s done it could made sea lanes much less important. From there you could detect the nervousness of both US and Japan in the latest China’s AIIB bank build-up.

    Plus, the essence behind all those South China Sea (SCS) Anglo media hype in the recent days is all about controlling SCS via sea lane that currently is the key channel responsible for over 90% of China’s energy and merchandise transport from and to the world.

    That being said, you can see clearly why and how “Anglo-Semitic empire” is blackmailing China as we speak by threatening to cut her throat – SCS.

    And “China is not as opposed to the anglo-semitic empire? ” ROFL! But the whole point is the insatiable anglo-semitic empire now wants the every drop of life-blood of China, too, and China is forced to defend herself, can’t you see?

    “China” is the Western word. ‘China”means nothing to the Han. the Han people and the East Asians call “China” HuaXia – the 2,000-year-old real name of “China”. The irony is that Han Dynasty first called and used to call Roman Empire “Da Qin” – meaning “Big Qin”, whereas nowadays the West call us “China” (from Qinna). ROFL

    As for HuaXia-West contact, they started 2000 years before the end of Qing actually. . Accoding to Han Dynasty historic document record, the first Roman emissary arrived in China’s Han Dynasty in 166 CE sent by either the Roman emperor Antoninus Pius or the later emperor Marcus Aurelius . The insatiable Roma Empire demand of the Han’s highly fashonable silk and otehr luxries was one of the major reasons for establishing the “Silk Road” anyway. On the other hand the 1st Han Dynasty effort to reach Rome, an envoy led by General Ban Chao, failed to reach Rome in 97 BCE.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  64. @Seraphim

    And you really think that the Chinese do not have contingency plans for various “opportunity” scenarios?

    The predecessors to China’s current rulers sent imperial troops to quell the revolts. Sometimes they won, and sometimes they lost. In Korea and Vietnam, the costs outweighed the perceived benefits, so they gave up for a time, and then resumed hostilities at a later time. China may eventually resurrect its claims to both Korea and Vietnam. Such are the ebbs and flows of territorial struggles between sovereign states. Given that the Chinese rank their dynasties based on the extent to which they expanded the territorial boundaries of the realm, it’s quite possible that once China gets enough of an edge over its neighbors, Chinese armies will once again range far and wide as they once did during the heyday of the Qing dynasty.

  65. Seraphim says:

    @This whole Heartland concept doesn’t make much sense

    You seem to not have understood what Mackinder was talking about. A simple summary was given by the Wikipedia:

    “He outlined the following ways in which the Heartland might become a springboard for global domination in the twentieth century:
    Successful invasion of Russia by a West European nation (most probably Germany). Mackinder believed that the introduction of the railroad had removed the Heartland’s invulnerability to land invasion. As Eurasia began to be covered by an extensive network of railroads, there was an excellent chance that a powerful continental nation could extend its political control over the Eastern European gateway to the Eurasian landmass. In Mackinder’s words, “Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland.”
    A Russo-German alliance. Before 1917 both countries were ruled by autocrats (the Tsar and the Kaiser), and both could have been attracted to an alliance against the democratic powers of Western Europe (the US was isolationist regarding European affairs, until it became a participant of World War I in 1917). Germany would have contributed to such an alliance its formidable army and its large and growing sea power.
    Conquest of Russia by a Sino-Japanese empire.
    The combined empire’s large East Asian coastline would also provide the potential for it to become a major sea power. Mackinder’s “Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland …” does not cover this scenario, probably because the previous 2 scenarios were seen as the major risks of the nineteenth century and the early 1900s.
    One of Mackinder’s personal objectives was to warn Britain that its traditional reliance on sea power would become a weakness as improved land transport opened up the Heartland for invasion and / or industrialisation.

    The objectives of the Outer Insular Crescent was, and remained, to prevent any of these scenarios to happen. What they could not conceive was the possibility of a strategic collaboration between Russia and China.

    • Replies: @Kiza
    , @Greg Pandatshang
  66. Kiza says:

    It is interesting that Russia had a very similar idea as China – joining forces with Germany. Nothing came out of it, because Germany is not only totally controlled by the US, then also Germany is a US of yesteryear. The Russians and the Germans even know each other very well, better than the Russians and the Americans.

    It is almost funny how the Chinese, who do not have much understanding of the European history, are making pie-in-the-sky plans because they admire German cars which they drive or dream to drive one day. That is, the Chinese admire German engineering but know nothing of the people who built it.

    Germany could rule China, but it will never join China against the US+Japan. The EuroAsianUnion must exclude Germany out of realism. I believe Russia has mostly woken up to this fact already. But this does not preclude a new Silk-Super-High/Railway to Central Europe and Germany.

    Russia+China is as far as EAU will go, with others (Iran, India etc) joining in and out, according to their own momentary need, trying to play off EAU against the “International Community” (who can offer me more).

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  67. Kiza says:

    “One of Mackinder’s personal objectives was to warn Britain that its traditional reliance on sea power would become a weakness as improved land transport opened up the Heartland for invasion and / or industrialisation…What they could not conceive was the possibility of a strategic collaboration between Russia and China.”

    In the 19th century Europe, China was a place to be ruled, not to be partnered with. It was a sheer luck which created a competitor to the US rule of the World, by bringing Russia and China together into an alliance out of strong, shared, and persistent interest. The US helped, of course, by pestering both countries at the same time.

    The US will keep trying to conquer Russia or China through NGO color revolutions and terrorism by the ethnic minorities (the standard destabilization package). But the real success of the US would be to make one forget that it is much weaker without the other, if they let the US pick one off, then the US global hegemony will have a much better chance. This is the essence of this strategic game.

    Count one day in the future, on Europe controlled by Germany (excluding Britain) as the third force in this chess game, not a permanent ally of either.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  68. denk says:

    *Xinxiang [sic] is the border land. It was fully incorporated in China in around post WW2 when the delegation of the Xinxiang negotiating team failed to arrive to Peking to discuss with Mao and the Communist party the status . The flight carrying them met a fatal accident.*

    wow i dunno about that, thanks for the headup.
    it stinks innit, i’d say it had cia’s fingerprints all over it dont u think so ?
    the langley’s glamour boys have performed at least 60 wet jobs on foreign dignitries since ww2, thats just the known cases mind u.
    these guys HATE peace negotiations, they’d be out of job if peace is at hand, see ?
    in 1959 it tried to prevent chinese premier chou enlai from attending the nam meeting in bandung indonesia. it got the wrong plane and sent 300 poor sods down to a waterly grave under the scs.
    charming fellas eh ?

  69. @Seraphim

    So, it appears that none of Mackinder’s ideas as summarised here have any resemblance to what subsequently happened in world history. Therefore, one might conclude that Mackinder was a failure at understanding how the world works or talking about anything of relevance. Perhaps it is unwise to try to view real-life Xinjiang today, or the price of tea in China for that matter, through Mackinder’s lens.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  70. Seraphim says:

    Color revolutions go through a tough patch.

    “Times are tough for America’s “color revolution” industry. Perfected in Eastern Europe after the fall of the Soviet Union, and honed during the so-called “Arab Spring,” the process of backing subversion in a targeted country and overthrowing a sitting government under the cover of staged mass protests appears to be finally at the end of running its course….
    Russia’s emerging media influence on the world stage played an essential role in unmasking and disrupting America’s efforts to destabilize and overthrow the government in Armenia. The ability to be one step ahead of the Western-narrative and expose the players before they even take to the stage, meant that people already knew what to look for.”
    First appeared:

    Ditto for China. The umbrellas have been taken by the wind. Obdurate ethnic minorities would be reminded of what was talked about in some posts here, the “Pacification of Dzungaria”.
    As for the “US making one forget that it is much weaker without the other”, it seems highly unlikely as long as both are ruled by responsible statesmen.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  71. Seraphim says:
    @Greg Pandatshang

    @Perhaps it is unwise to try to view real-life Xinjiang today, or the price of tea in China for that matter, through Mackinder’s lens.

    Of course, Murphy’s Laws have universal application. Perhaps one should try to tell that to Zbignew Brzezinski.

  72. Ivan says:

    Have you ever wondered why all the countries surrounding China, do not like it? Do you think that various Burmese, Indian, Vietnamese, Japanese who are otherwise quite nationalistic simply toe some alleged American line on China? The Chinese have no friends since hardly anyone wants to befriend a combination of a snake and a tiger.

    For all the nonsense about how the Russians and Chinese are running circles around the Americans the reality is there is an undercurrent of mistrust based on unresolvable territorial disputes that while not fully fleshed out, are nonetheless potent and unseen.

  73. @Kiza

    You, ditto Russia, may understand a lot of today’s post WWII German generation/s, but not a lot on China and the Han, Panda is afraid.

    What China+Germany Vs US+Japan is Panda’s mockup “New Great Game” model vs Paul Chchrane’s, with an assumption that Germany must be good enough to make it independent in the first place. Panda’s model doesn’t represent the real one in progress in Beijing, Berlin, Moscow, DC or Tokyo, nor reflecting what the general population’s view. The Middle Kingdom’s mentality has always been “Non-alliance” btw, with WWII being about the single big exception when China was at her lowest point in history.

    “Germany rule China”? Panda is shocked to see this joke. You might have vastly underestimated the Middle Kingdom’s self-confidence and intellectual capabilities beneath. The current “made-in-China”jokes are merely a flash in the pan from historical point of view. Many of us may live to the day to witness that Chinese engineering, instead of that of the shoddy Germans or Japanese, marks the true gold standard of world, because that had been the Han Chinese historical norm. To make a simple easy analogy:

    If the US (Anglo-Jewish-Germanic) elites + mish mesh of average ethnic European, Africans and Latino etc are arrogant enough and proud of (many are based on their real achievements though, hence partly justified ) their 200-year history and 60 years of world domination sinc WWII (with a good part of it shared with the Soviet) and therefore have a natural mentality talking about “American Exceptionism” and ‘World Policeman”, 10X of those and you would get to a proxi of the realistic picture of whom the Han Chinese are and what they feel about themselves and the others (partly justified as well). Germany who? LoL. Panda doubts China’s top thinktanks would realistically think about alliance with anyone to be honest.

    And Sino-German collaborations in modern era started way before WWII and Germany’s successful attempt to make quality cars. The natural fundation of such a view would be intuitively based on considerations of geographic location, relative population size in the region, average IQ, general national characteristics (e.g. disciplined, diligence, endurance, etc), and natural historical mentality/tendency of land powers. In this sense, Panda is afriad that the comtemporary Russians may be misguided by the post WWII tamed and half-domesticated German generations at their surface , let alone the decent understanding about the Han. (As a matter of fact, the West is making the similar blunder with the Japanese as well, to whom few have a clue except “fierce warriors”etc bullshit stereotypes straight out of Hollywood.)

    The West, including some of the best thinktanks and “strategic” minds and “China-hands” (or legs) such as Brezinski or Kissinger etc, had and still have no much clue on China and the Han Chinese, Panda would say.

    In Panda’s view, if Brezinski or Kissinger could be labelled as “strategic” and are directing the US foreign policy, then say hello to the better strategic minds of some random Chinese high schoolers, white and blue-colar workers when surfing through any major on-line Chinese language military forum comment section. As Panda always say:

    The US (Anglo-Jewish) “strategy” means: divide&conquer by cowboy style bluffs and counter-bluffs, balance one against another, etc . So in a simpler analogy: the cowboys are playing poker and blackjack.

    The Russian “strategy” means: checkmate by Russian version of bluffs and counter bluffs, to see who is the last man standing, etc. So the Ruskie elites are playing int’l chess.

    The Han Chinese strategy means: well, if you are not at least semi-pro player of “Weiqi”, you are not taken serioualy as anything close to true strategy. In this sense, with all the respect, Brezinski, Kissinger and Art of Wars lecturers of the US Naval War College are merely kid’s play.

    One mistake people make is that the current moves of China represent China’s best thought-thru strategic policy. Very wrong. They represent only what the Communist Party thinks. Communist Party thinks in term of how to best safeguard their rule of China, and nothing else, not China’s long term national interests or its int’l competitiveness or anything. And senior Communist Party officials, by the party nature contrary to what the MSM and Hollywood would have made the rest of the world to believe as “competent engineers”, are formed actually by a bunch of (Chinese) average IQers and some way below-average IQer – retards, who are hugely inefficient, with no or low morals, plainly dumb and detrimental to China’s long term national interests most of the time, hence by and large they suck big time. That’s current China’s real problem, being economics-wise, technology innovations -wise, or military-wise.

    So to the “China’s miracle of 30 years continuous double-digit growth”, “China rising” etc blah blah”, Panda’s response would be “WTF are you talking about?? you ain’t seen nothin’ yet!”

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  74. Sam Shama says:

    I wonder if I might pose a simple question (this is for you as well as @Kiza, since both of you appear to have a deep knowledge and understanding of the Asian and Eurasian political and economic history, but disagree on some points).

    What are the pre-conditions necessary for the US-German (Europe)-UK-Japan axis to accept China’s power and potential and approach ecologically sustainable, global economic growth , in a co-operative manner with the China-Russia-other Asian (India, Iran, Malaysia etc) group? Is this a notion a pipe dream?

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  75. @Ivan

    China borders over 20 countries, and you raised an example of 4 and concluded that all the countries surounding China do not like it…

    Yes, Panda does wonder…wonder that who taught you arithmatics in primary school? ROFL

    By the way, compared to America’s few neightbours (Canadians and Mexicans), China is perceived far greater in percentage term, don’t you think? Allow Panda to remind you that this one is slightly beyond arithmatics. LoL

    If you manage to get correct answers of above 2, then in the same vein of logic of yours, if you call China “a combination of snake and a tiger”, what you call America then? a combi of rattlesnake and a bully with brain cells of a chimp?

    On a more serious note:

    –the Burmese don’t like China? If you know the 2,000 years historical relationship btw the Burmese and the Han, you might kick yourself for saying that.

    –the Indians don’t like China? So? as if China gives 2 hoots about a country that is situated a world’s away – yes, in a sense Hymalayas mountain range is a much more formitable barrier than the Pacific Ocean. LoL They pretty much don’t like ANY of their “neighbours” in the region to be honest. Go pick up a map and tell Panda otherwise.

    –The Vietnamese don’t like China? well, that’s more complicated, as it deals with 2,000-year-old love-hate mish mash… but boil it down the Vietnamese actually LOVE China! (hey, if you gotta hate, you’d better hate MSM which have successfully brainwashed you into thinking such nonsense. LMAO) Everything master China did and does, the loyal Viets are the 1st in the world to make a copy of it and take it as their own: national flag? economic slogans such as “open door”policy, SEZs? military uniforms? military strategies? folk songs? etc etc just to name several.

    –The Japanese don’t like China? LoL. of course, say a combi of jealousy + envy+ inferiority complex+ worry of being revenged on what they did in WW2 yet refuse to profundly apologise is a potent factor. Being afraid of lossing for sure its short-lived statue and accompanied material benefits alongwith souped-up ego since the beginning of the 20th century, however fragile it is, of being Asia’s #1 for some short decades in its entire written history would be another natural poison of mind.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  76. @Sam Shama

    Thanks for the compliment, but semi-ignorant Panda only knows some surface stuff. ROFL

    To be frank, it all boils down to 1 point IMO – the sheer Darwinian force that ultimately decides each of thier national prosperities in the long run. The brutal power of this natural force has been shaping the human societies up and down for eons that has made “accept or not accept, or in which terms, or with whom in or whom out, or ecologically sustainable (what you’re talking about? LMAO), etc ” completely out of hands of subjective judgement and/or wishful thinkings of anyone. When it comes, it comes, can delay it for a while but can’t stop it. Therefore, HBD, average IQ and the size are such a big deal. LoL

  77. @Ivan

    Have you ever wondered why all the countries surrounding China, do not like it? Do you think that various Burmese, Indian, Vietnamese, Japanese who are otherwise quite nationalistic simply toe some alleged American line on China? The Chinese have no friends since hardly anyone wants to befriend a combination of a snake and a tiger.

    They don’t much like the US either, but are hoping that Uncle Sam will fight China to help them preserve their sovereignty. The best thing the US could do to force them to take their defenses seriously is to stay out of the first armed conflict that breaks out due to Chinese incursions. Then the nations of the Orient will finally start spending serious money on defense instead of merely talking about it.

    What’s amusing about the current situation is that apart from China, the region’s military spending is at its lowest point as a % of GDP since the Cold War ended, yet the possibility of armed conflict (involving a Chinese invasion) is at its highest point ever, and ratcheting ever higher. It’s one thing for Westerners to think of the Chinese as a bunch of docile laundrymen, and quite another for the nations of the Far East, which have a history of being attacked by China during its moments of economic and military strength, to do so.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  78. @Seraphim

    Obdurate ethnic minorities would be reminded of what was talked about in some posts here, the “Pacification of Dzungaria”.

    A Chinese ruling faction that exterminates a minority is one that might have to deal with the economic problems related to subsisting without foreign trade – a super-sized Iran, without the oil. Khomeini was Allah’s representative on earth and Mao was a veritable Son of Heaven for a new dynasty, with the Mandate of Heaven firmly in hand. The odds are that rival Party factions won’t be quite as quiescent as Iran’s mullahs or Mao’s colleagues in the face of an opportunity to turf their rivals, during the course of any economic ructions that would follow a genocide-induced global trade embargo.

  79. Seraphim says:

    @The Han Chinese strategy means… “Weiqi”,

    Wow, great minds think alike!
    It might be not very long ago that this came out (I can’t remember exactly where, but take my word): Americans play Monopoly, Russians play chess. I added: but Chinese play Go! There was a response: Americans, who are achievers, play poker! I responded in my turn: They play poker with marked cards, and when they lose, the pull out the gun and the winner takes all!
    Anyhow, Chess is closer to Go than to poker. That means the Russians have a better understanding of China and Chinese than the poker players who can’t really comprehend the world outside of the bubble of smugness in which they live.

    BTW, the Sino-German “collaboration” is indeed older. Leibniz, although developed the binary system by himself, thought that his system was the re-discovery of a system known to the Ancient Chinese (the I Ching), showing the universality of the human thought. Yes, he believed that the Chinese thought processes were the same as ours.
    Leibniz re-discovered a method of arranging linear equations into a matrix, which could then be manipulated to find a solution, method pioneered by Chinese mathematicians almost two millennia earlier, but had long fallen into disuse.

  80. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Actually, China’s history with its neighbors in the Sinosphere and SE Asia is remarkably peaceful. Especially considering the number of states it has historically bordered. It’s much more peaceful than the history of conflict among the European states, for example.

    • Replies: @Ivan
    , @Johann Ricke
  81. denk says:

    *The Chinese in US and Canada are the best example of the ethnocentric clannish behaviors.
    Indonesia and Thailand should teach America what the hungry marauding tribal poor people can do to the host country.*

    hey u [email protected]#$%^!
    the chinese indonesians are the world’s most assimilated minorities.
    they’re required by law to use indonesians names, speak the language and chinese culture is largely curtailed or banned outright.

    pray tell, what exactly did those ethnocentric clannish, hungry marauding tribal poor chinese indonesians did to the host country that calls for a final solution ?

    THE blueprint for a global chinese depopulation program.

    *The Indonesian covert action of 1965, reported by Ralph McGehee, who was in that area division, and had documents on his desk, in his custody about that operation. He said that one of the documents concluded that this was a model operation that should be copied elsewhere in the world. Not only did it eliminate the effective communist party (Indonesian communist party), it also eliminated the entire segment of the population that tended to support the communist party – the ethnic Chinese, Indonesian Chinese. And the CIA’s report put the number of dead at 800,000 killed. And that was one covert action. We’re talking about 1 to 3 million people killed in these things. [1987 Lecture] THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA: by John Stockwell*

    and the rest is history,
    afpak, iraq, indonesia, xinjiang, malaysia, ……..

  82. denk says:


    the statement ivan hates denk is meaningless without context,

    can u gimme one good reason why the jp should dislike the chinese, just one ?

    so u’r supposed to be russian i guess , hehehe 😉

    • Replies: @Ivan
  83. denk says:

    johan ricke
    *What’s amusing about the current situation is that apart from China, the region’s military spending is at its lowest point as a % of GDP since the Cold War ended, *

    Since no nation threatens China, one must wonder; Why this growing investment? Why these continuing large and expanding arms purchases? Why these continuing robust deployments?”

    Thus spoke the yet to be tried war criminal Donald Rumsfeld.

  84. Ivan says:

    ROLF all you want. As someone said, if you go out in the morning and meet an asshole, you’ve just met an asshole. But if you keep meeting – here apparently twenty of them – then you are the asshole. The Chicoms are in the latter category.

    There are certainly more than four countries who have problems with them. We saw how they grated on the nerves of the ASEAN countries in the search for MH370. And just to take one example among many, for decades the Chinese triangulated against India by using Pakistan, they and not the Americans are the real backstop for Pakistan. We have not forgotten what a perfidious snake China really is. Neither have the Russians; don’t imagine that all those nuclear missiles are to deter only the Americans.

    • Replies: @denk
  85. Ivan says:
    @Johann Ricke

    On a related point Johann, the fact of the matter is that the peace and prosperity of the Far East was achieved under the aegis of the Pax Americana. None of these highly nationalistic countries would have the wherewithal to concentrate on development had it not been for the security of the American umbrella. The Americans gave with an open hand, of their knowledge, expertise and money. That generation of Americans may well be passing, but it does no good to replace the truth with some version of Chinese propaganda.

  86. Ivan says:

    When it comes to war the Chinese wars, though conducted mainly among themselves were as bloody as anything among the Europeans. Even if they had wanted to, they could never overcome the natural barriers to conquest given their geography, the Himalayas in the South, the deserts in the West, the tundra in the North and the sea in the East. The Chinese are an empire all by themselves, so the moment they start getting out of line, we will see all the fissures developing. This is not an exclusively Chinese phenomenon.

  87. Ivan says:

    denk, please read the Nikkei it is easily accessible online. Speaking of the Japanese, they must be really tired of being the whipping boy for the Chicoms, whenever they need a distraction.

    I am an Indian, the name Ivan was given to me by my parents, possibly because in the time when I was born, the early sixties, we Indians were admirers of all things Russian.

  88. denk says:

    * for decades the Chinese triangulated against India by using Pakistan,*

    so this is why indians dislike *chicoms* ?
    this is kinda like *robber crying robbery* !
    the sino pak alliance is spawn out of china’s need to counter the indo murkka strangulation.
    see, bharat declared right after the 1962 border war that it’d henceforth join the unitedsnake’s encirclement of china.

    bharat seem to learn a lot from its colonial master, the perfidious albions, no mean teachers those !

    *during the chini chini bhai bhai era, bharat colluded with the unitedsnake to orchestrate the tibetan uprising in 1959.
    when the plot failed, bharat welcomed hmdl with open arms, granted him a operational base , it’s been used to destabilisation ever since.

    *bharat was again complicit in the 2008 tibet riots.

    *2008, bharat sponsored maoists deposed the nepalese monarchy coz its was deemed *too friendly* to beijing.

    modi engineered a regime change in sri lanka to oust the pro beijing prez, even when its courting massive investments from china.

    when it comes to double dealing, bharat sure can teach the unitedsnake a thing or two , it isnt for nuthin that bharat is often known as the unitedsnake of south asia, hehehe

    so u couldnt come up with one valid reason for jp to *dislike* china,
    that makes jp an asshole, ditto bharat.

  89. denk says:

    *We saw how they grated on the nerves of the ASEAN countries in the search for MH370. *

    kudos to unitedsnake’s divide and conquer tricks,
    check out my comments in this thread…

  90. denk says:

    *denk, please read the Nikkei it is easily accessible online. Speaking of the Japanese, they must be really tired of being the whipping boy for the Chicoms, whenever they need a distraction.*

    why’d the ccp bother to rile up the masses against jp when abe the asshole is doing all the work ?

    do u know ?

  91. Ivan says:

    What remains is that the Chinese are mistrusted by everyone, their only true friend is Pakistan. For that reason the idea that the Russians and Chinese are going to form the core of an effective anti-Western bloc is not going anywhere outside the realm of fantasy. The Russians will have enough problems looking over the Chinese making a stab for the riches of Siberia.

    • Replies: @denk
  92. LoL. Panda can accutely detect that the burning anxiety out of inferiority-complex has unfortunately made our dear friend Ivanski Grupta total chimpout. Perhaps instead of bitching the Han masters, Ivanski could find it more realistic to worry about India’s Great Game of the 21st century – of how to churn out enough toilets for his compatriots in order to avoid daily tragedies of being run over by some 19th-century-British-made anceint snail trains while they’re enjoying “happy hour” answering nature’s calls along the nation’s garbage-filled rail tracks? ROFL

    • Replies: @Ivan
  93. denk says:

    when former jp fm taro aso visited delhi a few yrs back , he and his host indulged in some kind of china bashing fest. aso complained to his host that *china and jp never had a harmonous relaton for the past few centuries* [sic]

    i wonder why, aso san ?

    1500 – 1600 jp pirates terrorised chinese coastal towns

    1609, jp robbed ryukyu [currently okinawa] from china,

    1895 jp robbed tw ,diaoyu isle from china

    1900 jp [bharat too ] participated in the rape of beijing

    1939 jp invaded china, the imperial army committed many barbarous atrocities including the rape of nanjiang, the infamous unit 731.
    tens of millions of chinese were slaughtered during the eight yrs of jp occupation.

    1965, jp was complicit in the genocide on chinese indonesians.

    the chinese had 101 reasons to hate jp but they didnt , they even took care of the thousands of jp war orphants left in china after wwii and repatriate them to their homeland. !
    in 1970 premier chou enlai formally proposed to jp to shelf the diaoyu issue so that sino jp can continue normalisation of relation .
    such wisdom led to a decade of reconciliation when bilateral trade increased exponentially, tourism boomed and cultural, educational exchanges flourished.

    the honeymoon was shortlived however, it ended abruptly in 2010 when jp unilaterally broke the gentleman agreemen ,rekindle the hitherto dormant diaoyu issue.
    jp has been ratching up its provocations against china ever since.
    the rest is history.

    for jp to dislike/distrust china is a bit rich dont u think so ?
    ditto for bharat !

  94. Well, I suppose we can safely conclude that ‘Ivan’ really really hates China.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Ivan
  95. Seraphim says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    Could it be the fact that India really belongs more to the “Outer Insular Crescent” than to the “Inner Marginal Crescent” of the “Heartland” (in Mackinder parlance)? That India has a secret nostalgia for the British Raj? That she entertain dreams of great Power (who would make all the world Hindu!) and that the Americans would help it?

    “The Americans are vastly experienced with the Indians’ Himalayan ego and by now they know well enough where and how to tickle Indian vanities. How they pedal fresh dreams to the Indians and pick up the fruits of their endeavors will be keenly watched not only by the multitude of Indians back at home, but also by the Pakistanis, Chinese and the Russians.” (The Dragon spews fire at the Elephant, by M K Bhadrakumar, Oct 17, 2009, Asia Times).

    • Replies: @Ivan
  96. denk says:

    *What remains is that the Chinese are mistrusted by everyone, their only true friend is Pakistan*

    when the elephant has three legs firmly planted in the zwo camp, perhaps the brics should ponder if they’ve invited a trojan into the house ?

    stop peddling that msm canard that everybody distrust/dislike china old chap, as panda already pointed out, the china baiters consists of a small clique of murkkan poodles jp, ph who only follow washington’s dictat, does bharat wanna join that
    distinguished puppets fraternity as well ?

    if u keep getting your news from the western, indian msm u’d be kept in the dark and fed bs all day long…like mushrooms !
    to get the real scoop, why not ask the neigborhood ?

    a view from nepal,
    +Permitting training camp for the Nepali Maoist insurgents and helping Nepal fight the Maoists at the same time is the worst form of duplicity, +

    a view from sri lanka
    the same duplicity, abetting the ltte and helping the sri lanka army to fight the militants at the same time, classic unitedsnake. !

    btw, both nepal, sri lanka are traditionally friendly to china.,
    both have their leaders outsed by the delhi/zwo axis.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  97. @Anonymous

    Actually, China’s history with its neighbors in the Sinosphere and SE Asia is remarkably peaceful.

    In its periods of strength, China has repeatedly waged versions of the Ten Great Campaigns against its neighbors. The past two centuries have seen less aggressive action from China mainly because of its weakness. And yet, starting with Mao, China has fought territorial wars with India, Russia, Vietnam and simply grabbed territory from the Philippines. And the elephant in the living room is the Korean War, during which China fought UN Forces in order to not only preserve a UN member state (DPRK) that waged aggressive war against another, but to eliminate that other UN member state (ROK). During the Cold War, China financed, trained and supplied Communist guerrillas around the world, with a special focus on Southeast Asia. Burma, Thailand, Malaysia, the Philippines, Cambodia, Laos, South Vietnam and Indonesia were all affected by Chinese support for local insurgencies, with Cambodia, Laos and South Vietnam actually turning communist.

    The West’s imperial era, of annexing foreign peoples and lands for recreation and profit, is over. China’s several millennia-long campaign, of bringing All Under Heaven into the realm in a piecemeal fashion, is starting again, after something of a hiatus.

    You have to hand it to the Chinese. They whine endlessly about “unequal treaties”, yet nobody listens to the Turks when they complain about the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. When was the last time you heard an Austrian whinge about the breakup of the Austria-Hungarian Empire? China’s bottomless reserves of arrogance combined with its renewed economic heft will eventually lead to big clashes with its neighbors. The question is whether they can set aside their differences and myopia long enough to hold the Chinese colossus back.

    Unless the US is careful, it will be sucked into another war “Asian boys ought to be (fighting) for themselves” (quoting LBJ). The Vietnam War was a holding action that gave the newly-established and/or war-ravaged states of the Far East breathing room against the communist insurgencies that plagued them. During the Cold War, China and Russia devoted significant resources towards exporting revolution. The sheer scale of US resources devoted to the Vietnam War meant it also absorbed the vast majority of the Chinese and the Russian aid directed toward foreign communist insurgencies. Thanks to this holding action, the non-Communist nations of the Orient are now economically and politically well-established. It’s time Uncle Sam cut the cord.

  98. Ivan says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    I don’t hate China, just making some pertinent observations. I suppose I have to make the required declarations that some of my best friends are Chinese, etc.

  99. Ivan says:

    Please, Bhadrakumar has to fill up a column a week, which he often does with gas. Don’t over analyse things Seraphim. Mere self-interest, goes a long way to explain geopolitics.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  100. Ivan says:


    The only issue here is the complete farce of a Russo-China alliance. It will not work, too many skeletons in the cupboard.

    • Replies: @denk
  101. Ivan says:

    Do you do anything else except ROFL? If the Chinese want to work their collective asses off destroying the value of manufacturing work, they are welcome to it, although I personally would advise against it. We used to have a saying at a plant where I worked. If a machine is made in US costing $1.oM, then if it is made in Singapore it should cost $0.5M, and if it is made in China it should cost $0.2M .

    There is no rhyme or reason to the China price, but the Chicoms are caught n the own trap, should they raise prices by say 10 to 15%, the entire supply chain moves back to the US, or is relocated to Brazil or Indonesia. I have nothing but sympathy for the Chinese workers, slogging 24/7 like slaves, chasing illusory dreams, having worked there myself on and off on small projects. Basically, the so-called China advantage can be overhauled overnight, by other low cost producers. So no, among the last things I would envy is the lot of the mainland Chinese.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @PandaAtWar
  102. Seraphim says:

    @nobody listens to the Turks when they complain about the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. When was the last time you heard an Austrian whinge about the breakup of the Austria-Hungarian Empire?

    The Chinese Empire lasted 2133 years. Modern China is the direct continuation of the Empire. One more hundred years, mostly on the same territory with a remarkably stable civilization.
    The Turkish Empire lasted 520 years.
    The Austro-Hungarian Empire 51.
    Is it really the same thing?

  103. denk says:

    *professor of chinese history johann ricke cited wiki [sic] source of chinese imperialism… the 17c,
    then the good professor solemnly tell us…
    *The West’s imperial era, of annexing foreign peoples and lands for recreation and profit, is over*
    [work in progress]


  104. Seraphim says:

    @Mere self-interest, goes a long way to explain geopolitics.

    Or perhaps is just Indians’ fondness for cricket?

    • Replies: @Ivan
  105. denk says:

    the snake seems to take the brics alliance seriously… sans india !
    perhaps the elephant is a trojan after all ?

    • Replies: @Ivan
  106. @Ivan

    Panda ROFL because Panda’s posts and yours are a vivid showcase of natural Master Mentality Vs. Slave Mentality. Obviously the self confidnce beneath ROFL is far beyond 82 IQers’ frontal lobe capacity, now got it? ROFL

    Master Mentality is what all the great empires and people in the world have had in common on their way up:

    >=100 average IQ,
    keep the head low,
    work hard, but very hard ,
    work up the value chain step by step from a low but solid basis,
    no complains,
    full of self-confidence and discipline

    Chinese in China in 20th century, Brits in England in the 18th century, Germans in Prussia in the 19th century, Euro Americans in America in the earlier 20th century… every one of them worked their arses off 24X7 up from the lowest value chain, with no exception.

    Glory is built on hardships, not on boastful empty bullcrap that you Indians are excel at and worship, LoL

    Slave mentality is reflected as such ( “high”castes or “low”castes) :

    with <= 85 average IQ,

    lazy like hell all year long, bullshitting as gurus all day long,

    transporting goods on top of their heads instead of arms and hands – perhaps Peter Frost could write a piece on why only Africans and Indians act like that?)

    sharing the common features of Western NGO weekly TV commecials Save the Children (i.e. with their posterchilds, either half-naked or in some dirty Sarins, begging for food with tiny bones huge eyes and faces full of flies…),

    chest-thumbing like chimps,

    feed up their bellies on free UN Food Aid while envily laughing at the hard work of others whom they just beg from,

    breed like rabbits topping the highest population growth rates in the world year after year,

    complete alien to the concepts of indoor-plumbing, condoms, ROFL, and soup spoons (yeah, they use barehands instead),

    zealous lovers of open-defecation and their countless gods of everything with 4 legs, followed by drinking and pissing in the same rivers before gangraping whatever that is moving nearby,

    immensely proud of being capable of stringing up a sentence or two of their Master Queen's English and sports such as cricket,

    last but not least when they have a train-ride, they usually take it literally, which means on the top!

    Do those sound familiar to you, dear Ivan Angloson Gupta? ROFL

    • Replies: @Ivan
  107. denk says:

    johann ricke
    *During the Cold War, China financed, trained and supplied Communist guerrillas around the world, with a special focus on Southeast Asia. Burma, Thailand, Malaysia, the Philippines, Cambodia, Laos, South Vietnam and Indonesia were all affected by Chinese support for local insurgencies, with Cambodia, Laos and South Vietnam actually turning communist.*

    this is the kind of craps that justify the snake’s genocidal wars in asia, south america.
    typical m.o.,
    + The techniques of the Indonesian destabilization were classic: CIA agents planted caches of arms that would then be “found” by Indonesian police under the watchful eye of the alerted media. [sound familiar, 911 etc etc ?] Along with the arms would be all kinds of forged documents proving that the Communists were fomenting a violent uprising. Propaganda agents planted stories in the media, inflaming the mistrust of the Communists. Others gave speeches. The situation heated up until some generals in the Indonesian army were killed, and the boil of tension burst. The Indonesian army went after the Communists and the people they felt traditionally supported the Communists. The result was a bloodbath that the New York Times described in terms half a million to a million and a half dead. The Australian secret service, closer to Indonesia, put the figure at closer to two million-the rivers were clogged with the bodies of the dead.

    in nam,
    +It was all an act for me, a cover-up for deeper fears I couldn’t name, and the reason I know that is that we had to dehumanize our victims before we did the things we did. We knew deep down that what we were doing was wrong. So they became dinks or gooks, just like Iraqis are now being transformed into ragheads or hajjis. People had to be reduced to “niggers” here before they could be lynched. No difference. We convinced ourselves we had to kill them to survive, even when that wasn’t true, but something inside us told us that so long as they were human beings, with the same intrinsic value we had as human beings, we were not allowed to burn their homes and barns, kill their animals, and sometimes even kill them. So we used these words, these new names, to reduce them, to strip them of their essential humanity, and then we could do things like adjust artillery fire onto the cries of a baby.+

    how many mylai’s yet to be unearthed ?
    then there’s the phoenix program where cia death squads rubbed off thousands of *commie sympathisers* following the template in indonesia 1965, vc *suspects* thrown off a helicopter.
    free firing zones where anything that moves were legit targets.
    carpet bombings, apache gunships, napalm, artillary barrage wiping off whole villages.
    all told, three millions killed in nam alone, mostly civilians.

    another three millions in cambodia, laos.

    is this how you defend democrazy in asia, professor ?

    • Replies: @Ivan
  108. Ivan says:

    Those of us who care about cricket and PG Woodhouse are a dying bunch sir. The new Indian, at least the ones making all the noises, is an aggrieved mix of jingo nationalism, Hindu cardboard fanaticism, bourgeoisie calculation with apparently an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the Chinese.

  109. Ivan says:

    Thank you sir for kicking us out! I am certain the Brazilians would be only to happy to turn the entire Amazon into a granary for China. Good luck my friend.

    • Replies: @denk
  110. Ivan says:

    Indonesia was the successor country of the Dutch East Indies. Instead of being happy with that largesse of the colonial masters spanning three time zones, Sukarno wanted more, supporting subversion in Malaya and Borneo. He clearly had to go. He was quite stupid to accept help from the all-round troublemakers, the Chicoms. This redounded badly on the Indonesian Chinese who were minding their own business, but suffered horribly when the reaction set in.

    • Replies: @denk
  111. Ivan says:

    Man I have to admire your research skills, even while ROFL.

  112. denk says:

    u dont seem to understand, nobody wanna kick u out.
    what happens is russia, china are on the snake’s hit list but not india,
    so the rumor that bharat is an under cover agent seems vindicated !

    dont worry about brazil, china is gonna invest big in india…as per modi’s request !

  113. denk says:

    u clearly missed cia’s gloating of eliminating the entire community of chinese indonesians, thats a goal, not collateral damage.
    fact is, the 1965 caper was recommended as a template to be repeated in places including afpak, malaysia, singapore , indonesia again in 1998 and xinjiang.

  114. denk says:

    prof johann ricke says the snake is here to defend us from the commies…

    with friend like this…..




    diego garcia,

    puerto rico

    protesting fbi’s murder of puerto rico freedom fighters,

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