The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 Godfree Roberts Archive
Social Credit, Datong Dreams
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>
SocialCredit-1

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

The ethical is always more robust than the legal. Over time, it is the legal that should converge to the ethical, never the reverse. Laws come and go but ethics remain.

Sextus Empiricus, 200 AD.

For centuries Western monarchs derived legitimacy from a God Who lent authority to the laws they promulgated. The simultaneous demise of God and the monarchic principle in 1918 left the law legitimized by force alone and, a century later, our distrust[1]Confidence in Institutions. 2018. Gallup suggests that it has failed to converge with the ethical.

Things were little better in China two thousand years ago but, before we examine the evolution of its legal system, we must recall that it exists not only to suppress crime but to serve a national goal that ninety percent of the population shares: the creation, in two stages–xiaokang and dàtóng–of a radically advanced society.

Confucius’ Book of Rites, in one of its most celebrated passages, reads:

Once Confucius was taking part in the winter sacrifice. After the ceremony was over, he went for a stroll along the top of the city gate and sighed mournfully. He sighed for the state of Lu. His disciple Yen Yen, who was by his side, asked: ‘Why should the gentleman sigh?’

Confucius replied: ‘The practice of the Great Way, the illustrious men of the Three Dynasties–these I shall never know in person and yet they inspire my ambition! When the Great Way was practiced, the world was shared by all alike. The worthy and the able were promoted to office and men practiced good faith and lived in affection. Therefore they did not regard as parents only their own parents, or as sons only their own sons. The aged found a fitting close to their lives, the robust their proper employment; the young were provided with an upbringing and the widow and widower, the orphaned and the sick, with proper care. Men had their tasks and women their hearths. They hated to see goods lying about in waste, yet they did not hoard them for themselves; they disliked the thought that their energies were not fully used, yet they used them not for private ends. Therefore all evil plotting was prevented and thieves and rebels did not arise, so that people could leave their outer gates unbolted. This was the age of Grand Unity, dàtóng.

Now the Great Way has become hid and the world is the possession of private families. Each regards as parents only his own parents, as sons only his own sons; goods and labor are employed for selfish ends. Hereditary offices and titles are granted by ritual law while walls and moats must provide security. Ritual and righteousness are used to regulate the relationship between ruler and subject, to insure affection between father and son, peace between brothers, and harmony between husband and wife, to set up social institutions, organize the farms and villages, honor the brave and wise, and bring merit to the individual. Therefore intrigue and plotting come about and men take up arms. Emperor Yu, Kings Tang, Wen, Wu and Cheng and the Duke of Chou achieved eminence for this reason: that all six rulers were constantly attentive to ritual, made manifest their righteousness and acted in complete faith. They exposed error, made humanity their law and humility their practice, showing the people wherein they should constantly abide. If there were any who did not abide by these principles, they were dismissed from their positions and regarded by the multitude as dangerous. This is the Age of Lesser Prosperity’ xiaokang.

In 2011, the Prime Minister defined xiaokang as ‘a society in which no one is poor and everyone receives an education, has paid employment, more than enough food and clothing, access to medical services, old-age support, a home and a comfortable life’ and, when China reaches that goal on June 1, 2021, there will be more drug addicts, suicides and executions, more homeless, poor, hungry and imprisoned people in America than in China.

Guided by Xi Jinping Thought (which, like Deng’s Thought which preceded it, is a plan and its ethical justification) the National Family will then attempt to create a dàtóng society, an advanced version of Marx’s notion of Communism, ‘from each according his ability, to each according to his need’. Once it is clear that virtually every Chinese is on board with this program, this account of the steps towards it makes sense.

Anciently, laws protected the State from the people (not vice versa) and the elite assumed that everyone was naturally wicked, controllable only by impersonal laws, “Applied to rich and poor alike for offenses large and small because, if small faults are pardoned, crimes will be numerous”. Yet, though Legalism had prevailed for a thousand years, crimes were stubbornly numerous because, Confucius explained, “If people are ruled by uniform laws and punished uniformly they’ll certainly try to avoid punishment but will never develop a sense of shame. If, on the other hand, they’re led by morally admirable people and encouraged by rules of good behavior they’ll emulate their leaders, internalize the moral code and gradually become good”.

Provincial governors began experimenting with his ideas and, four centuries later, the emperor formally adopted them and urged his officials to set a virtuous example and make repression unnecessary. Despite failures and setbacks, the rule of virtue proved popular, the spread of literacy introduced it to the masses and, just as the Master had predicted, the people gradually became good says[2]Imperial China 900-1800. F.W. Mote F. W. Mote, “More important than penal law and judicial procedures in maintaining order in the community were the methods of arbitration and compromise. That route to resolving disputes allowed the parties to retain their dignity, utilized social pressures as understood by all and gave problem-solving roles to senior figures acting as arbitrators that reinforced the community’s recognition of its shared ethical norms. Some regions of China were known to be more litigious, more quarrelsome, less placid than others but, throughout their observations of ordinary Chinese life from the sixteenth century onward, early European travelers remarked on the mannerliness, good humor and social graces of the common people”.

Then as now, China’s investment in crime prevention is astounding. The common people still address older strangers as ‘auntie,’ ‘uncle,’ ‘grandfather,’ or ‘grandmother’ and act, literally, as their brother’s keepers. Social pressure, amplified by social media, is immense and even strangers commonly address mischief-makers in the street. Instead of sliding down a slippery slope, would-be criminals must struggle through a briar patch of family, workmates, classmates, neighbors and strangers intent on socializing them. Mass media regularly explain new laws and schools, offices, factories, mines and even army units discuss them. Volunteers on every block liaise with police who know everyone in their precinct by name and who have tools–temporary restraining orders and home confinement among them–their Western colleagues can only dream of. Citizens have won the right to video police who must publish the status of all active cases online. Regulations have clarified concepts like the exclusion of illegally obtained evidence and made police and court officials responsible for wrongful prosecutions–for life, with no statute of limitations. All criminals, from arrest to release, must receive humane levels of material comfort and dignity and can prosecute prison staff if their rights are breached. Criminologists assume that even murderers can reform and inmates must participate in career, legal, cultural and a course of moral education that considers the social consequences of their crime.

As in France magistrates, traditionally regarded as neutral truth seekers, interrogate suspects, examine evidence, hear testimony and render verdicts. Since most have no formal legal training President Xi, who experimented with judicial oversight committees as a provincial governor, required jurists to be selected on their professional track records rather than political correctness and, by 2016, Shanghai’s Judicial Selection and Punitive Committee Trial Point[*]Trial Spots are administrative experiments at the local, provincial or national level to generate the statistical information required for passage of all legislation. Planners built the smaller, downstream Gezhouba Dam, as a Trial Point for the Three Gorges Dam but Congress remained unenthusiastic, finally approving the project by a small majority. had expelled a High Court prosecutor, two sub-prosecutors, the Vice President of the Provincial Supreme Court and a senior circuit court judge.

In 2016, Xi[3]Xi stresses integrating law, virtue in state governance. Xinhua | Updated: 2016-12-10 21:27 explained to a study group, “Law is ethics expressed in words and ethics is law borne in people’s hearts. In state governance, law and ethics have equal status and play the role of regulating social behavior, adjusting social relations and maintaining social order. If rule of law embodies moral ideals they provide reliable institutional support for ethical behavior. Laws and regulations should promote the virtuous, while socialist core values (prosperity, democracy, civility, harmony, freedom, equality, justice, the rule of law, patriotism, dedication, integrity and friendliness) should be woven into legislation, law enforcement and judicial process”.

The culture’s traditionally low opinion of lawyers received a boost from current Prime Minister Li who, as a freshman, translated commentaries on British Common Law and the Supreme Court’s internship program now attracts top students. Trained appeals court judges have been overturning decades of wrongful convictions, ordering restitution and requiring courts to study the reversals. The court’s website–which has live-streamed six hundred thousand trials, explains unfamiliar concepts like due process, invites criticism of new laws and provides a database for legal scholars–has received five billion hits.

A Shanghai Trial Spot provides defense lawyers for every criminal defendant (mandatory only for juveniles, the disabled and those facing life imprisonment or death) and wealthier provinces are following suit. Others are trialling neighborhood mediation committees. One jurisdiction found that locating mediation offices in courthouses dramatically reduced litigation costs and now Beijing wants all lawyers to take mediation training. An Internet Trial Spot bundles free mediation, dispute settlement and legal aid on a platform that connects plaintiffs to thousands of lawyers, notaries and judicial appraisers. Another uses facial and speech recognition technologies and electronic signatures so that all parties can participate in online legal proceedings. In another Trial Spot plaintiffs go all the way to trial using Weisu, an app that lets them join the courtroom from home while the program verifies their ID, submits their files and transcribes their testimonies using voice-to-text. The government plans that, by 2020, everyone will be able to afford legal proceedings and, should they wish to appeal, the courts will have electronic records of their case.

Hangzhou, home of Jack Ma and Alibaba, launched the first cyber court in 2017 to handle exclusively online disputes like e-commerce complaints, online loan litigation and copyright infringement. On its website, Beijing’s Internet Court provides artificial intelligence-based risk assessment tools as a public service and automatically generates legal documents, applies machine translation and allows people to interact with its knowledge base orally to accelerate and simplify settlements. In 2018, it heard TikTok and Baidu contest ownership rights to user-generated content in short video apps.

In Taoist-Confucian China, of course, no-one is really separate: the government is part of the family and the courts are part of the government and nobody is under any illusion that they’re independent since, to reach dàtóng, everyone must be on the same page and navigating to dàtóng is the responsibility of the Communist Party. That’s why Chief Justice Xiao Yang told a shocked British journalist, “The power of the courts to adjudicate independently doesn’t mean independence from the Party at all. On the contrary, it embodies a high degree of responsibility vis-à-vis the Party’s [dàtóng] program”. The program, with ninety-five percent popular support, will deliver xiaokang prosperity and the Party’s logic is ancient: once everyone has a home, an education, safety, plentiful food, clothing, medical and old age care in 2021 then everyone can afford to improve their manners, good humor and social graces. But if the logic is ancient, the technology is not.

Technologies that revealing details about personal integrity have always caused alarm. In 1968, when credit bureaus were reporting debtors’ sexual and political preferences, The New York Times[4]Witness Says Credit Bureaus Invade Privacy and Asks Curb. NYT March 13, 1968 warned, “Transferring such information from a manual file onto a computer triggers a threat to civil liberties, to privacy, to a man’s very humanity–because access is so simple”. Fifty years later, three credit bureaus evaluated everyone, The NYPD surveilled New Yorkers with drones, the Federal Child Support Registry tracked parents, the No-Fly List grounded troublemakers, an IRS list blocked delinquents’ passports, the Federal Sex Offenders List wrecked offenders’ lives and the National Security Agency’s mission[5]Collect It All: The NSA Surveillance Doctrine. Andrew Conry Murray, Information Week, August 2014 was, ‘Know It All, Collect It All, Process It All, Exploit It All’.

The absence of capitalism, the efficiency of its crime prevention and the traditional preference for all cash, face-to-face transactions rendered credit records unnecessary until the 1980s, when Beijing launched Consumer Rights Day as a trust-building exercise. Officials and vendors took to the streets, experts discussed product quality and TV screens flashed shots of fake merchandise being shredded, crushed and burned. Though consumers are more sophisticated today, one element of the campaign remains popular: and ‘awards’ ceremony in which CEOs of cheating companies are hauled before a billion gleeful viewers, beg forgiveness and promise to change their companies’ wicked ways. Most are local but, when Apple was called out for persistently defying the two-year warranty law, CEO Tim Cook apologized and conformed. The CEOs of Volkswagen and Nikon have also taken the Walk of Shame, altered policies and groveled satisfyingly.

Then, in 2001, Internet fraud exploded, a cycle of distrust caused consumer confidence to plummet. Concerned, The People’s Daily called for ‘corporate and individual credit dossiers,’ to promote sincerity, chengxin, and trustworthiness, yongxin. Scholars extolled the benefits of accountability and American consultants went on TV to explain that credit records would make online transactions trustworthy. President Xi promised[6]18th Party Congress, November 8, 2012 to govern the country by virtuous example, hide zhiguo, and create a spiritual civilization, jingshen wenming, and called for Trial Spots to advance dàtóng. In response, Congress legislated[7]Global Policy Watch. ethical manufacturing, truthful advertising, secure distribution, honest payment and trustworthy delivery and required retailers to accept returns unconditionally within seven days, to pay doubled fines for false advertising and to refund three times the price of counterfeits (Nike ran ads urging consumers to make money off the counterfeits).

Suining County[8]China’s Social Credit System: An Evolving Practice of Control. Rogier Creemers. University of Leiden in Jiangsu Province had launched the first ‘mass credit’ Trial Spot in 2010. Citizens were initially given a thousand credit points and lost them for infringing legal, administrative and moral norms: a drunk driving conviction cost fifty points, having a child without family planning permission (this was before it was abolished) cost thirty-five points and delinquent loans cost thirty to fifty points. Lost points could be recovered after two to five years depending on the gravity of the infraction and participants were categorized A-D on the basis of their scores. A-class citizens received preferential access to employment opportunities while others faced scrutiny when applying for desirable jobs, government contracts, low-cost housing, social welfare, business licenses and permits. But when the county published the entire list Xinhua News compared it to the Good Citizen Cards, liangminzheng, Japanese occupiers issued during the war. Though crude and embarrassing, the trial provided valuable data on calibrated disincentives, the effects of naming and shaming and rewarding compliance with local rules and regulations.

E-commerce took off but, by 2014, the People’s Daily had become concerned, “Our national family currently suffers from socially unhealthy phenomena like economic disputes, telecommunications fraud, lack of trust and indifference to human feelings, perhaps because our integrity system is weak..Integrity systems are vitally important: they should start with government-level honesty, promise-keeping and respect for basic morality and customs, and make a genuine effort to strengthen social integrity”.

The timing was fortuitous: smartphones were becoming ubiquitous and the creating an online economy bigger than the rest of the world’s combined (during a twenty-four hour sale one merchant[9]The company also pledged $300 billion–of which the government guaranteed $12 billion–to provide finance, insurance, loans, logistics and analytical tools for cash-strapped small firms, street vendors and farmers and to help four hundred million unbanked rural people establish personal credit., handled a billion transactions, peddled 140,000 new cars and delivered a billion packages worth $30 billion and generated a billion credit records) and data showed that sales, profits and societal satisfaction rose with trust–a discovery that unleashed a flurry of Trial Spots designed to promote the virtuous and demote the vicious.

The first target was deadbeats, laolai, who stonewalled loan repayment because the police refused to collect debts so, in 2017, the Supreme Court ruled that anyone who failed to carry out a valid court order or administrative decision could be placed on a public list for up to two years. A Trial Spot began publishing laolai’s names, Social Security numbers, photographs, addresses and outstanding debts and restricting their access to ‘luxurious activities’ like traveling first-class. By 2018[10]Global Times, 2018/5/20, the program had blocked twelve million laolai flights, five million high-speed train trips and–to Beijing’s dismay–blacklisted a thousand government officials. One laolai Trial Spot told callers, “The person you are calling is listed as dishonest by the Dengfeng People’s Court. Please urge them to fulfill their obligations”. After featuring local laolai in a video clip set to dramatic music, a court website in Henan claimed its first victory when a Guangxi deadbeat saw himself and promptly paid his $78,000 debt.

Image: Douyin
Image: Douyin

Xi invited citizens to oversee opaque government departments and by 2019, one hundred towns and cities had been listed as dishonest, their top officials banned from taking high-speed trains, visiting golf courses and high-end hotels or purchasing real estate. Their cities’ credit ratings were downgraded and local governments began realizing that they are not only administrative entities but also civil subjects subject to civil laws. The Ministries of Ecology, Finance and Customs created a joint Trial Spot that, by 2018, had punished[12]China Economic Daily fifty-thousand corporations and reduced crimes like counterfeiting, food and drug violations and regulatory flouting. By 2019, the corporate watchdog had integrated existing laws into a transparent system of universal accountability and begun publishing every company’s inspection results and corporate behavior began to improve[13]What Could China’s ‘Social Credit System’ Mean for its Citizens? Foreign Policy, August 15, 2018:

Rules broken by corporations can lead to their being unable to issue corporate bonds and individuals officers being blocked from company directorships. Trust-breakers can face penalties on subsidies, career progression, asset ownership and the ability to receive honorary titles from the government. Penalties include limiting ability to establish companies in the financial sector, issue bonds, receive stock options, establish social organizations or participate in government procurement programs or receive government subsidies or in-kind support. Trust breakers are barred from senior positions in State Owned Enterprises, financial sector companies and social organizations, entry into the civil service, the Communist Party and the military; they are restricted from industry sectors including food, drugs, fireworks and dangerous chemicals and refused authentication for customs purposes; special procedures are required when they apply for loans and they are barred from purchasing real estate, land-use rights, exploiting natural resources and subject to restrictions on conspicuous consumption, no longer allowed to travel first class, on high-speed trains or civil aircraft, to visit star-rated hotels or luxury restaurants, resorts, nightclubs and golf courses, to go on foreign holidays, to send their children to fee-paying schools, purchase some high-value insurance products, or buy homes or cars.

As much as government and corporate dishonesty sap national strength, antisocial behavior, incivility and petty cheating dilute the quality of social life and

Tentative Trial Spots addressing antisocial behavior, incivility and petty cheating have begun to bear fruit, too. The national railways Trial Spot[14]Measures on the Administration of Railway Passenger Credit Records 2017 (Provisional) China Law Translate curtails travel for fare dodgers, disruptive behavior, smoking, scalping tickets, using false ID, invalid tickets and handles enforcement automatically. Personal Trial Spots, [15]China Daily. 2018-7-14. 09:50:51 while controversial, have stimulated a national debate about ethics: a private[16]Public universities are forbidden to discriminate on any but criminal grounds. university in Zhejiang told a businessman’s son they could not complete his enrollment because his father had failed to settle a $30,000 bank debt. While the father promptly paid the debt some netizens decried what they saw as collective punishment saying that parents, not their children, are responsible for their own misdeeds. Others argued that children should not enjoy privileges paid for with unpaid debt. Unleashed dogs, long a source of concern in Chinese cities, disappeared from Jinan after the city launched its “Civilized Dog-Raising Credit Score System” in 2018, and its success was duplicated elsewhere. Some personal Trial Spots are experimenting with credit objections, appeals and credit repair and protection of citizens’ rights.

As the trials mature, high Social Credit ratings have begun winning hearts and minds. Some automatically qualify high scorers for cheaper loans, upgraded flights, no-deposit rentals and–the ultimate Chinese incentive–desirable schools for offspring. Young people post scores to attract mates and one posted a video showing how Alibaba’s unstaffed automobile vending machine gave him a car for a three-day test drive and a cheap loan to buy it. China Daily regularly talks up the benefits, “After graduation, Zhang Hao, 28, found a job at a securities company in Hangzhou. On his mobile app, Alipay, he saw an apartment he liked. Alipay, Alibaba’s mobile payment service, rates its users’ credit based on their consumption and investment habits and Zhang had a high score so was exempted from the $1,000 security deposit and the $200 broker’s fee. The experience not only saved Zhang time and energy in renting an apartment, which is often complicated, but also gave him a fresh look at the city where he was about to build a career”.

By amplifying existing sanctions and building confidence in the law the plan hopes to make more people honest and fewer dishonest by applying the very Confucian assumption that officials and corporations should do the heavy lifting before citizens are asked to follow suit. Hence first phase[11]Social Credit Overview. Jeremy Daum. China Law Translate. 2018/10/31. will improve government transparency and public supervision of government actions, enforce commercial regulation, track corporate and industrial violations, uncover welfare and charity fraud and enhance courts’ credibility and capacity to enforce judgments.

Computer-aided virtue is on the march. Social Credit promises to be China’s biggest attitude adjustment since the Cultural Revolution and, if successful, will reduce costs and friction in trade, commerce, travel, romance and even international relations. More carrot than stick, it will empower good citizens to reap the benefits of a xiaokang society and, in the process, save an enormous amount of money.

With two percent of America’s legal professionals, one-fourth its internal security budget and unarmed police, China already has the lowest incarceration and re-offence rates on earth and the highest public satisfaction: when Harvard’s Tony Saich[17]How China’s citizens view the quality of governance under Xi Jinping. Tony Saich. Apr 2016. asked about their greatest concern people ranked ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ highest. When he asked which government service they were most satisfied with they again placed ‘Maintenance of Social Order’ first. As the most lawless centuries in its history fade into memory, will Social Credit speed China’s transition to dàtóng?

Notes

[1] Confidence in Institutions. 2018. Gallup

[2] Imperial China 900-1800. F.W. Mote

[*] Trial Spots are administrative experiments at the local, provincial or national level to generate the statistical information required for passage of all legislation. Planners built the smaller, downstream Gezhouba Dam, as a Trial Point for the Three Gorges Dam but Congress remained unenthusiastic, finally approving the project by a small majority.

[3] Xi stresses integrating law, virtue in state governance. Xinhua | Updated: 2016-12-10 21:27

[4] Witness Says Credit Bureaus Invade Privacy and Asks Curb. NYT March 13, 1968

[5] Collect It All: The NSA Surveillance Doctrine. Andrew Conry Murray, Information Week, August 2014

[6] 18th Party Congress, November 8, 2012

[7] Global Policy Watch.

[8] China’s Social Credit System: An Evolving Practice of Control. Rogier Creemers. University of Leiden

[9] The company also pledged $300 billion–of which the government guaranteed $12 billion–to provide finance, insurance, loans, logistics and analytical tools for cash-strapped small firms, street vendors and farmers and to help four hundred million unbanked rural people establish personal credit.

[10] Global Times, 2018/5/20

[11] Social Credit Overview. Jeremy Daum. China Law Translate. 2018/10/31.

[12] China Economic Daily

[13] What Could China’s ‘Social Credit System’ Mean for its Citizens? Foreign Policy, August 15, 2018

[14] Measures on the Administration of Railway Passenger Credit Records 2017 (Provisional) China Law Translate

[15] China Daily. 2018-7-14. 09:50:51

[16] Public universities are forbidden to discriminate on any but criminal grounds.

[17] How China’s citizens view the quality of governance under Xi Jinping. Tony Saich. Apr 2016.

 
• Category: Economics, Foreign Policy • Tags: Censorship, China, China/America, Crime 
The China/America Series
Hide 24 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
    []
  1. it was a nice change to read a informational article about China instead of reading a propaganda filled muuh concentration camps galore:)

  2. peterAUS says:

    I guess that lack of comments tells something.

    For me it simply felt surreal. As long it stays within borders of that (future) paradise.

    Should it spill out of borders “surreal” will definitely change to something else.

    I am sure that’s a wet dream of ….ahm…certain parties in West. But even they would feel slightly …weird?….pushing for it.
    I mean, they know that even most of them will be watched and measured. Uncomfortable, at least.

    It appears that author is in favor of such world. No comment there.

  3. Excellent piece. I feel emotionally informed about Chinese attitudes.

  4. @peterAUS

    ‘Surreal’ (strange, odd, queer, curious, weird, peculiar, funny, eccentric, outlandish, ludicrous, ridiculous, fantastic) is an interesting epithet.

    China’s culture is literally outlandish. It’s hard to follow Braudel’s advice to imagine, “the impact on European civilization of a series of Imperial dynasties maintaining the self-same style and significance from Caesar Augustus until the First World War. Now imagine such a civilization existing on the other side of the planet unaware of Greek philosophy, the alphabet, Roman governance, Christianity, feudalism, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment or democracy, but with its own, unique cultural and institutional correlates that exceeded all of them in intellectual subtlety and material success“.

    It’s almost as hard as imagining what it would be like to have our brains distributed along our arms and legs, as octopi do.

    There’s no point in being if favor of, or against, such a world since that world is not accessible to us. It’s a very ancient world, built around assumptions and customs entirely different from our own.

    It’s an excerpt from a book I’m writing about China and Ron has kindly allowed me to use this space to garner feedback. The deafening silence around this excerpt, as you rightly observe, tells me a great deal. I’ll have to go back and make sure that everything in this section is well supported by what precedes it, and I’ll have to re-write this section, expand it and tie its various elements to the Confucian tradition that underlies it and the culture that has spawned it.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @peterAUS
  5. DB Cooper says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Godfree is on to something here. In many respects Chinese quite often have a worldview the opposite of their Western counterparts. The result of a culture very alien to the West as Godfree noted here. It is not right or wrong, just different. Here is one example. Chinese in general have a higher trust in the central government than the local governments. It is historically been this way. This is the polar opposite of the mindset of the Americans. Americans in general distrust the federal government more than the state government. This is just one example of difference in world views. If I have time I can write more about these kind of differences.

  6. anonymous[469] • Disclaimer says:

    “Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom” anyone? Yes, we humans generally pay quite a bit of attention to social norms and ranking (probably some more disposed to this than others), and – if/when – well and honorably guided, this can be a good thing. But remember, humans also will ‘optimize’ (aka cut corners) relative to stated/enforced rules and boundaries. How does such a full disclosure society manage itself against being gamed by the rougher edges of our too often expressed potential for (in)humanity?

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  7. peterAUS says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    I think there is a bit of misunderstanding here, so, let’s clear it.

    When I said surreal I wasn’t talking about Chinese culture. I was talking about surveillance state managed by party apparatchiks.

    Now, to clear it again, in a perfect world where some sort of benevolent all powerful entity can see all, evaluate that and act upon it, yes, I wouldn’t mind it. Something, say, as that Central Computer in “The City and the Starts”. So, as idea, one day, perhaps, it could be a good thing. Definitely NOT a good thing today. Or, better, a terrible thing.

    So, to emphasize my point re

    ….There’s no point in being if favor of, or against, such a world…

    There are quite a few points to be against such a world.

    I can, with ease, imagine such environment in any major Western city, and managed by “progs”.

    Now, I am sure that “cosmopolitan urbanites” wouldn’t mind that. But, something tells me that many people reading , let alone posting, here would mind it very much.
    Including majority of authors.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  8. @anonymous

    They give moral oversight to admirable citizens, the ninety million Party members who have sworn to ‘bear hardships first and enjoy comforts last’. Few of them benefit much materially from membership and hundreds of thousands have given their lives since the Party’s founding. Make no mistake: all China’s elite are members and people expect them to set an example when the shit hits the fan.

    The work the of actually reaching xiaokang and datongis deputized to governance professionals, who are drawn from the top 2% of university graduates then sent to godforsaken villages until they raise the villagers’ incomes by 50%. The best of them are asked to repeat the performance at the township, county, city and provincial levels before being called to Beijing for advanced training and greater responsibility. As these ambitious officials rise, their lives become increasingly transparent and, since all promotions are publicly advertised and all candidates have strong track records, most weight is given to their moral stature. So, at both the ideological and the administrative levels, everything converges towards the ethical.

    It sounds too good to be true–until you check the stats.

    • Replies: @alan2102
  9. @peterAUS

    Coming as we do from a (currently dystopian) Western governance model and informed as we are by media hostile to theirs, it’s natural for us to imagine a surveillance state managed by party apparatchiks.

    But their governance model is utterly unlike ours, their government has kept every promise it’s made for seventy years and and they’re informed by media they trust. As Martin Jacques says,

    The Chinese state enjoys much greater legitimacy than any Western state. The Chinese treat the state with a reverence and respect that is more or less unknown in the West; and the reason clearly has nothing to do with democracy. In other words, a state’s legitimacy cannot be reduced to the existence or otherwise of democracy: on the contrary, democracy is not necessarily the most important factor in a state’s legitimacy and may, as in the case of China, be relatively unimportant.

    The underlying reason for the legitimacy of the Chinese state is that, as discussed earlier, it is seen by the people as the embodiment and guardian of Chinese civilization, enjoying, as a consequence, something akin to a spiritual significance. It follows that what would undermine the legitimacy of a government, the present one included, is a threat to the country’s unity. The attitude of the Chinese towards the state, thus, is very different to that of Westerners.

    For the latter, the state is an outsider, a stranger, even an interloper, whose presence should, as far as possible, be limited and confined. This is most obviously the case in the United States, with those who identify with the Tea Party, for example, regarding the state as an alien body, but even in Europe it is viewed with varying degrees of suspicion.

    In China, in contrast, the state and society are seen as on the same side and part of the same endeavour: the state enjoys the status of an intimate and is treated like a member of the family, not just any member but the head of the family – the patriarch himself. We can only understand the immense authority of the Chinese state in these terms, an authority which has been reinforced by the fact that, unlike in the West, it has had no serious rivals for over a millennium.

    When China Rules the World

    • Replies: @Per/Norway
    , @peterAUS
  10. Have an uneasy feeling about the perspective of Godfree Roberts, despite interesting factoids etc

    There is a hint of, ‘It’s a really, really different culture so you can’t really criticise it’ relativism theme

    Seems there is a ‘most Chinese are on board with the programme, so it’s good’ fallacy … But what realistic choice do the Chinese have if they are not ‘on board’? It is human nature to internalise and pretend you like, what you must accept anyway

    Hong Kongers and Taiwanese I have met rather differ … mainland Chinese also sometimes drop quiet subtle ambiguous hints that they wish things were different in some ways

    Tho Chinese also see that ‘exiting China’ is not so realistic either even where immigration avenues are open, because (1) the West is both pretty corrupt itself and falling apart as well (2) Western people are not your tribe tho you may live amongst them (3) China is the power of the future (4) the long arm of China reaches globally and can ‘touch’ you, including via family etc

    China is not the most darling big-power actor … ‘economic hit man’ type debt-enslavement of other countries … flat-out bullying in the South China Sea etc … or so it seems

    Tho there seems to be a few well-funded cheerleaders, such as André Vltchek, critiquing the West passionately and accurately, but selling one version or another of the story, that the hate targets of the West, Russia or China or Iran or Cuba or Venezuela or North Korea etc, are in fact great wonderful places in many ways

    Whereas I get a rather more mixed view from travellers to most of the above, whom I meet personally … certainly the Western-Nato propaganda is full of tripe … but there is lots going on elsewhere that seems rough and ugly too … not just ‘temporary problems or weaknesses’, but things likely to stay negative and not as we would wish

    Godfree Roberts is ‘writing a book’ … Is a ‘book’ really something in these times? People largely do not so much buy or read books anymore, tho the notion still has a certain lustre for older folks … in general, a book now, seems a way to bury ideas more than spread them

  11. @Godfree Roberts

    I am looking forward to read your book. I bookmarked this article so i wont forget.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  12. @Brabantian

    My experience with Chinese people i have met and talked with(tourists in Norway`s beautiful Geiranger fiord) have boasted about the Chinese government and its honesty when compared with the west, they said they were mostly satisfied with the government and its work. I admit that a dozen Chinese is not a very big number but i hope to remedy that when i travel to China next year.

  13. I suspect that Chinese “support” for these police-state measures is much like Western “support” for PC culture. They’re looking over their shoulders, fearful of being the nail that gets hammered down.
    I take neo-liberal anti-Chinese propaganda with a very big grain of salt, but Godfree is the exactly the opposite, swallowing their state propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @alan2102
  14. peterAUS says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    ….their governance model is utterly unlike ours, their government has kept every promise it’s made for seventy years and and they’re informed by media they trust….

    Moving on.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  15. peterAUS says:
    @Fidelios Automata

    ….swallowing their state propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

    I get a feeling it’s something else.

  16. peterAUS says:
    @Brabantian

    Have an uneasy feeling about the perspective of Godfree Roberts, despite interesting factoids etc

    Don’t say.

    Hong Kongers and Taiwanese I have met rather differ … mainland Chinese also sometimes drop quiet subtle ambiguous hints that they wish things were different in some ways.

    Pretty much.

    Tho Chinese also see that ‘exiting China’ is not so realistic either even where immigration avenues are open, because (1) the West is both pretty corrupt itself and falling apart as well (2) Western people are not your tribe tho you may live amongst them (3) China is the power of the future (4) the long arm of China reaches globally and can ‘touch’ you, including via family etc

    Yup. Especially the 2.
    But, they do open sometimes and then you can hear a lot. Barbecue with a lot of beer helps there.

    …Whereas I get a rather more mixed view from travellers to most of the above…

    Swap “travelers” with “immigrants” and you’ll hear better.

  17. alan2102 says:
    @Brabantian

    “there is lots going on elsewhere that seems rough and ugly too … not just ‘temporary problems or weaknesses’, but things likely to stay negative and not as we would wish”

    On what basis do you say “likely to stay negative”? I’m not saying you are wrong, but asking you to inquire of yourself. What makes for that perceived likelihood?

    In the case of China, my own guess is that things are likely to get more positive. When I ask of myself why I believe that, I don’t have a clear answer. But I do know that the totality of everything I have read in recent years suggests that they are at least somewhat more intelligent, and somewhat more morally enlightened*, than us (Westerners) at this time and for the foreseeable future. Hence: likely to get more positive.

    * A low bar, I grant.

  18. alan2102 says:
    @Fidelios Automata

    “I take neo-liberal anti-Chinese propaganda with a very big grain of salt, but Godfree is the exactly the opposite, swallowing their state propaganda hook, line, and sinker.”

    Consider that we are utterly awash in neoliberal Sinophobic propaganda. It is universal. As such, we desperately need the opposite point of view to be articulated. Call it “swallowing propaganda” if you wish, but to me this articulation is essential, and very rare — possibly truly unique, i.e. not existing ANYWHERE else in the West. A great public service, if for no other reason than to chart the antipode without which one cannot meaningfully think or form an opinion about something.

  19. @Per/Norway

    email me at my first name at gmail.com and I’ll send you a sample chapter

  20. @peterAUS

    Have you ever read a Five Year Plan? They average 20-30 promises. You can track their promise-keeping rate here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-year_plans_of_China

  21. Anon[250] • Disclaimer says:

    The article presents the social credit system as a good thing. This is somewhat the idea that “a good dictator is a good thing”, with a “good dictator” one that imposes to all what you yourself think is the right thing… It all goes wrong as soon as the “dictator with absolute power” starts to impose rules you don’t agree with…

    If everybody agreed on everything including what is good and desirable, all the time, this social credit system would be a benign framework. But this is not what happens in reality.
    In practical terms the social credit system will impose on all, in a total surveillance way, criteria decided by a set of higher rank people, and through algorithms that they do not disclose to the common citizens. This means the Chinese citizen will constantly be haunted by the uncertainty “Is this within the rules?” and to be on the safe side will “comply and over comply”. I don’t think this is benign.
    At some point the algorithms, run automatically, with artificial intelligence, may even affect the higher rank group of leaders that put them in place, and go out of control even of that group.

    For common people, disagreeing with the social credit system does not mean they are bad people. They may simply disagree with some of what is imposed. For example, if they see evidence that a given vaccine is harming children, it is only natural that they will want to avoid their own child being vaccinated – and they will be penalized in their score for doing so. If they want to help a friend with a lower score, that is in difficulties with the system because of his/her score, they won’t be free to do it… or they will have penalties on their own social credit score.
    Is this a society we want to live in?

    The social credit techniques being implemented in China will leak or merrily expand to the West. We should be very alert and try to avert this happening.

    • Replies: @alan2102
  22. alan2102 says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    “It sounds too good to be true”

    Yes, many things about China sound too good to be true, almost. It appears to be a socialist utopia in the making, and will remain so as long as it maintains its LEFT creds: commitment to social justice, sex equality, racial equality, the general welfare, antiwar/anti-imperialism, and environmental protection; universalism in general. Humanistic, eco-centric and morally enlightened.

    Areas of concern that would be inconsistent with the noble left orientation: Han racism (a significant problem); strident Chinese nationalism (a little, here and there); hero-worshiping personality cultism around Xi and formerly Mao (not too bad, but some). Also a growing military budget; still small by U.S. standards, and justifiable (they have to be able to defend themselves from Western aggression), but something to watch, cautiously.

    Other than those things, there is little resonance with right Hegelianism or fascism; they show no signs of degenerating into a right totalitarian dystopia — hyper-nationalism and exceptionalism, jingoism and glorification of brutality, sexism, imperialism, ruthless domination and exploitation, etc., etc. Even their Han racism, distasteful though it may be, has little practical consequence; witness their behavior in Africa, which is decidedly ANTI-racist in actual substance; not to mention the fabulous Belt and Road (backed with serious money, not just talk), which welcomes all nations, all races, all ethnicities, to participate in mutually-beneficial trade and development. Contrast the West: now subjectively (and sanctimoniously) “anti-racist”, but still decidedly racist in actual objective substance, up to and including literal genocide of black and brown people.

    The social credit system has at first blush a totalitarian flavor, until you realize that the utopian aspect — broad (even universal) mutual encouragement of ethical behavior — far outweighs the ugly dictatorial aspect. “Dictatorial” is not even the right word, since it is not a matter of some mere fiat from on high, which everyone must obey. The enforcer is not the state, but the people themselves. The people ARE the state, in a sense. And as Godfree pointed out, it is more carrot than stick, and a cooperative thing; “do well by doing good”; “let’s all help each other to do better”. Humane and comradely. The right/fascist version would have an entirely different flavor: peremptory and brutal, fear-based and fostering paranoia, featuring secret police spying on your every move, scapegoating and ostracism of violators, perhaps arrests and summary punishment, or perhaps even people being “disappeared”, and so on.

    The funny thing about Westerners is that they look at something like China’s social credit system, and all they can see is dictatorship and the right/fascist version of things. They are blind to the utopian aspect, which is far more important. It is as though the Western mind is poisoned in such a way that it can only see evil, not good. I’ve noticed the same thing with respect to China in Africa: Westerners see only a new colonial force, aiming to extract, exploit, enslave and despoil, (just like the West did), while the reality is much different and close to the opposite of that. I think it is projection: the corruption and brutality of the West, over the centuries, is now projected onto any new comer. It is as though assumed that someone else’s agenda MUST be as foul and nasty as one’s own. Hence China’s social credit system MUST reflect ugly dictatorship and descent into Orwellian dystopian hell (as it almost certainly would if it were happening in the West). It is all that they know, and therefore all that they can see. And to an uncomfortable extent, all that they can BE. Even the Western left (what tiny pockets of it remain after a half-century of systematic marginalization and destruction) has a hard time with this, and behaves as though not comprehending what is happening in front of their eyes. When asked about China, Noam Chomsky for example dwells almost exclusively on their problems, as though uncomprehending of their accomplishment and trajectory.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  23. alan2102 says:
    @Anon

    “The social credit techniques being implemented in China will leak or merrily expand to the West. We should be very alert and try to avert this happening.”

    I agree. We should not try anything like this. We would fuck it up. We would do it the right/fascist way, and it would speed our descent into hell.

    Give a good tool to a bad person, and bad stuff will happen.

  24. @peterAUS

    For me it simply felt surreal. As long it stays within borders of that (future) paradise.

    I wouldn’t hope too hard.

    Domestic Chinese issues aside, social credit married to advanced surveillance technologies (in which China has become an international leader) are essentially a social-technological rootkit that annuls the risk of color revolutions – forever.

    Authoritarian regimes everywhere are going to be salivating after it. Venezuela is already serving as a testbed.

    The main difference, as I see it, is that the bigger and higher IQ authoritarianisms, such as Russia, will largely build their own domestic equivalents; while the smaller, low IQ countries, such as most of Southeast Asia and much of Africa, will be more directly reliant on China for the system’s technical upkeep (with all the accompanying political dependence).

    Of course the picture will not be any better outside the Sinosphere. Within the Blue Empire (otherwise known as neoliberalism.txt and GloboHomo world), the system will be softer, but even more universalistic, aggressive, and will actually seek the demographic replacement of its indigenous populations, as opposed to just keeping an oligarchy in perpetual power.

Current Commenter
says:

Leave a Reply -


 Remember My InformationWhy?
 Email Replies to my Comment
Submitted comments become the property of The Unz Review and may be republished elsewhere at the sole discretion of the latter
Subscribe to This Comment Thread via RSS
PastClassics
The sources of America’s immigration problems—and a possible solution
Are elite university admissions based on meritocracy and diversity as claimed?
The evidence is clear — but often ignored
What Was John McCain's True Wartime Record in Vietnam?
Hundreds of POWs may have been left to die in Vietnam, abandoned by their government—and our media.