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The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped. Hubert Humphrey, Nov. 1, 1977.

• • •

In 1850, when Western nations were the richest on earth, capitalists created the first market economy. By privatizing credit, land, and labor, they allowed human society to be regulated by the market. In 1950, when China was the poorest nation on earth, communists created an organic economy by subordinating credit, land, and labor to the service of society and trusting the government to regulate it. In 2020, after growing twice as fast, China’s economy is overtaking market economies in two important aspects: eliminating poverty and inequality.

• • •

In 2000, the United Nations set six Millennium Development Goals: eliminate extreme poverty, hunger, disease, inadequate shelter, exclusion, and gender bias in education by 2015 and, since then, on Poverty Relief Day, China’s President and Prime Minister, trailed by TV crews, have visited rural villages to remind urbanites what poverty looks like. In 2016, urban poverty disappeared and, by June 1, 2021, rural poverty will follow it and every Chinese in the lower half of the income distribution will own a home[1]. Here we briefly retrace the steps in this remarkable program before meeting the poorest man in a poor village.

In 1993, Shanghai’s successful Minimum Livelihood Guarantee Trial Spot[2] went national as today’s social safety net, dībǎo, which pays the difference between people’s actual income and the ‘dībǎo line,’ set based on local living costs. Though the qualifying process is daunting, the dībǎo gives recipients discretionary money and access to benefits like inexpensive medical insurance.

An ethnic Miao[3] family exemplified rural poverty in 2008. They owned a little adobe house, farmed their tiny plot, sold blood, and did odd jobs to get by. With three children (minorities are exempt from family planning), they were unable to afford furniture so their clothes were folded on the floor and their entertainment was a black-and-white TV. They received a monthly living allowance of two hundred dollars from the local government, the husband’s occasional day jobs earned ten to twenty dollars, and blood-selling brought in another hundred dollars. His wife said this paid for sixty pounds of rice, two packs of salt, a kilo of peppers and a bag of washing powder, electricity and transportation. Their village headman explained, “Our village population is 1,770 and more than two hundred people live on blood-selling. Our land is arid, seven hundred villagers’ homes have no arable land at all and, without a road, they walk three miles for drinking water.”

Rural pensions, introduced in 2009, lowered poverty to fourteen percent then, in 2014, workers’ compensation, maternity benefits, unemployment insurance, skills training and equal access to urban employment reduced it to seven percent.

Next, tens of thousands of anti-poverty teams moved into poor villages to help them join the cash economy by growing mushrooms, planting pear trees, raising mohair goats, or hosting eco-tourists–anything to bring them into the cash economy. By 2018, pinned to the door of every poor household was a laminated sheet listing its occupants, the causes of their poverty, their remediation program, a completion date and the name, photograph and phone number of the responsible official. Corporations pitched in. Foxconn, Apple’s assembler, moved two-hundred thousand jobs inland, Hewlett-Packard moved huge factories to Xinjiang, and Beijing moved entire universities.

But it was infrastructure–roads, railways, Internet and drones–that tipped the scales. By 2019, lives in one-hundred twenty-three thousand poor villages had been transformed by high-speed, low-cost Internet service that made e-commerce, distance education, remote healthcare and delivery of public services possible. Isolated villages soon averaged four daily drone pickups and demand for drone piloting classes exploded as crop-spraying, land surveying, and product delivery made off-farm employment the majority of rural income.

To combat isolation, Congress took $120 billion from vehicle sales tax revenues and built 150,000 miles of new rural roads, one of which reached Mashuping[4], an isolated cliff village on the bank of the Yellow River and one of the poorest in Shaanxi Province. Villagers cultivated apples and Sichuan pepper trees but were forced to sell their produce cheaply to the few dealers who came by motorbike. Then a new five-hundred mile, riverbank highway brought ‘targeted anti-poverty teams’ and now, said a grower, “Our apples sell out when they’re still hanging on the trees”. By 2019, per capita income was twice the national poverty level.

Villages like Liangjiahe, where Xi Jinping grew up, exploit unique niches. Though cabbage fields still line its single road, the canny inhabitants cultivate tourists, charging thousands of visitors eight dollars to hear tales of Xi’s Four Hardships–flea bites, bad food, hard labour, and assimilating into the peasantry. They give three hundred overnight guests a taste of Xi’s boyhood in cave inns decorated with vintage Mao posters and kerosene lanterns and furnished with hard brick beds warmed by earth stoves. “All authentic, of course. We want to protect the Liangjiahe brand image,” a young guide brightly explained.

Dedicated software apps help rural laborers connect with employment opportunities, veterans and disabled folk to find piecework, and young people returning home to start businesses. In one Zhejiang Trial Spot, five hundred villages employ 200,000 locals to promote local products and skills in e-commerce niches where villages have organized into clusters around market towns. By 2019, rural online stores employed thirty-million people, creating an e-commerce market bigger than Europe’s.

Beijing judges anti-poverty programs successful when ninety percent of villagers swear, in writing, that they are no longer poor and after roaming teams of auditors conduct followup studies and send their findings, with videos, to anti-poverty officers. Beijing plans to recoup its entire poverty alleviation investment by 2040, through e-sales taxes.

In 2016 the government shifted ten percent of the equity in the most valuable SOEs[5] into the social security fund and President Xi set a final goal[6], “If we lift ten million rural people out of poverty each year until 2020, the social security system will provide adequate financial support for our twenty-million disabled people.”

Accelerating inland growth has triggered coastal labor shortages and forced employers to automate, raise productivity, and move up the value chain–just as Beijing intended. In 2019, Mentech, a telecom manufacturer in coastal Dongguan, offered regular wages plus $1,100 guaranteed monthly overtime, air-conditioned dorms, free Wi-Fi, and birthday presents. Monthly manufacturing wages averaged $1800 in 2019[7] and overtime, bonuses, company housing and free meals allow workers to send money home. Factory workers are generally young, happy, and carefree, gossiping, flirting, listening to music and–except in large corporations–wearing what they please.

Today, adjusted for productivity, regulations and benefits, Chinese employees cost[8] employers more than their American cousins and barely two percent of them pay taxes.

Until recently, millions of migrant workers who contributed to urban retirement funds could only collect full pensions in their home provinces, and local governments had no money for them when they returned at the end of their working lives. Despite pleas from cash-starved inland provinces, rich coastal provinces clung to multi-billion surpluses so Beijing endowed a trillion-dollar National Pension Insurance Program in 2011 and strong-armed provinces to join and the People’s Daily drummed up support by appealing to national pride, “In developed countries like America–whose Gini index sometimes reaches .41–income disparities are eased through gradually increasing taxation on the wealthy and improving welfare systems to help the poor. China should learn from America’s experience.” In 2014, civil servants and academics joined the national scheme and, in 2019, Beijing issued a billion electronic cards that access personal and medical records, dispense social security benefits, receive government subsidies and reimbursements, and pay bills.

As wealth redistribution becomes a national priority, economists[9] are finding that inequality statistics have been exaggerated because land, housing and food are much cheaper inland–though their quality is identical–and rural incomes have fifty percent more purchasing power than coastal wages.

Adjusted for temporary migration, inequality shrinks even further. Until 2019, economists counted people by where their hukou were registered rather than where they actually lived, so the movement of three hundred million migrant workers distorted statistics severely. In reality, the coastal provinces have millions more migrant residents than their registered populations and the inland provinces have millions less, so a worker moving from the interior to the coast lifts inequality indicators because she contributes to aggregate income at her coastal destination but is still counted as living in her rural home. When analysts corrected[10] the error, they found that regional inequality has been declining by 1.1 percent annually since 1978. In 2002 for example, it took the combined earnings of fourteen Guizhou workers[11] to equal one Shanghainese but, by 2019, the number had dropped to five. Nor is the structural gap as painful as it sounds. Inlanders and their friends got richer every year and, to them, Shanghai’s glitzy lifestyle was no more relevant than Manhattan’s is to folks in Little Rock, AK.

Examining China’s inequalities from a global perspective is enlightening. In 2018, residents of coastal Guangdong Province were five times richer than those in inland Gansu–but Gansu folk were better off than average Armenians or Ukrainians–while residents of wealthy Beijing, Shanghai, Tianjin, and Jiangsu not only earned more than the average American but their median savings, $130,000 were higher, too.

Confucian attitudes will help the Great Rebalancing, since everyone knows the Master’s admonition, “The ruler of a state need not worry that his people are poor but that wealth is inequitably distributed for, if wealth is equitably distributed, there is no poverty.”

Gao Village. A Closer Look, by Prof. C.F. Gao

The economy is in such a state that men don’t have enough money to care for elderly parents and support their wives and children. Even in good years their lives are bitter while, in bad years, they struggle to avoid starvation and death. Under those circumstances, how can you expect them to be civil–or even lawful? Mencius, 320 BC.

Who are the poor in Gao Village? How poor are they? Why are they poor?

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It is difficult to talk about these issues regarding the whole village. To start with, there is no institutional set-up to regularly record household or personal incomes. There are no taxes and no tax returns. Agricultural subsidies are distributed to the villagers not according to income, but on the basis of per unit of farming land. Secondly, most Gao Village income is from migrant workers, but hometown authorities have no knowledge of what migrant workers earn far away, all over the country. Local authorities will come up with some guesstimates if and when they are required to provide some statistics for government authorities. Finally, while there is a motivation for the provincial and even county authorities to present an average income figure as high as possible, because that can be a performance index for promotion, there is a motivation for the authorities at the village and village committee level to present the average income figure as low as possible. There are two main reasons for this behavior. Village and village committee officials do not have a promotion issue because they are villagers themselves and will never get promoted anywhere. Another reason for not reporting higher or even real income is that they want to get as many state subsidies as they can, and so the poorer the statistics show their villages to be, the better.

For those reasons, I will present a case study of one individual who is considered one of the poorest, if not the poorest in Gao Village. His name is Gao Renfang, but he is nicknamed Lati.

Gao Lati the Person

Gao Renfang is his official name, but he is usually known as and called by Gao villagers Lati (“one with impetigo”). He does not have impetigo anymore, but he did when he was little. As described in Gao Village, impetigo used to be a common contagious skin infection in the area and many Gao villagers had it, especially men. One Gao villager is simply called cou lati (“an additional person with impetigo”). Another one is even called lantou (“rotten head”) because his head is full of scars. Like many other contagious diseases in Gao Village, this kind of skin disease was eliminated due to improvements in hygiene and health in the general population in the Mao era. Lati is one of two sons of my mother’s elder sister, Jiang Xianhua. The other son, Gao Shihua, usually known as Baoshui, was not born a Gao villager but came to Gao Village from Wan Village with his mother when she married a Gao villager, after her former husband had passed away. Baoshui was a village barefoot doctor, and, as described in Gao Village, was the one who influenced me to become involved in Gao Village clan politics during the Cultural Revolution. Baoshui died of lung cancer in the early 1990s, but is survived by his wife and three children. Lati was 65 years old in 2015 and married with three children, and his wife Yuangui is from Wan Village, where Lati’s mother had her first family. In fact Lati and Yuangui are cousins, a blood relationship so close that their children were born with lower than average health and intelligence.

Marriages arranged between cousins were not uncommon in those days, partly because of the lack of knowledge of the risks involved, but also partly because of economic considerations. When two families of relatives arrange a marriage, it is not necessary to have a go-between to carry out sometimes complex and costly negotiations. As the two families know each other well, matters such as the dowry and gifts of this and that kind can be less difficult to manage. Furthermore, the relationship between the two families can be made closer with a marriage. This is called qin Shang jia qin, meaning to cement old ties by adding a new relative. One of their sons, Zhimin, developed epilepsy early on during childhood and died in his late 205 in 2006. Their daughter Pingping was born with some defect on her face and was considered unmarriageable. My family helped Pingping get a job as a maid to look after my ex-wife’s parents in Xiamen for some years. My ex-wife’s parents, two retired professors at Xiamen University, liked the honest, hardworking, and unassuming Pingping and even helped her to have an operation, which made her look much better. She left Xiamen when she married a man in Xiangshuitan, not very far from Gao Village.

Pingping has a son and a daughter now; a very good ending, apparently. The two retired professors have fond memories of Pingping to this day. Lati’s son Zhihua works as a migrant worker in Xiamen. Lati is considered by the villagers a laoshi ren (“simple and honest person”). The term laoshi ren is difficult to render in English, though the name of Voltaire’s innocent and naive Candide, when translated into Chinese by Fu Lai, was rendered laoshi ren. Lati can be described as a person who is the opposite of “slick and sly,” and is a person who is inarticulate and timid, but hard working. I will give an example as illustration, which not only shows what kind of person Gao Lati is, but also what kind of interactions are possible among the three parties of local governance: the State, the government agent, and the villagers.

An Issue of Dibao for Lati

There are several Gao villagers who are in the category of what is called dibao, which literally translates as “low guarantee” and means the minimum living standard guarantee, a kind of social welfare. Those who are categorized as dibao persons are considered to be poor enough to receive annual government support in cash, the amount of which in 2013 was RMB 1,350. Lati is one of the Gao villagers belonging to the dibao category. In 2013, Lati went to the Yinbaohu Township administration to get his allowance, using his household registration card. For some reason, Lati was given RMB 2,700, two people’s entitlement.

Lati did not ask why he was given that amount, or whether he was given too much by mistake or whether he should pass half of that money to someone else, but he took the money, probably happily. A few weeks later, the then-chairman of the Qinglin Village Committee, a person from Jiang Village, paid Lati a visit, during which he demanded Lati give back RMB 2,000. Naturally Lati would not agree, as it meant he would only retain RMB 700. Chairman Jiang told Lati in no uncertain terms that if Lati did not give him RMB 2,000, he would exclude Lati from dibao in 2014. Confused by the situation and frightened by the threat, Lati complied and Chairman Jiang took the money. During our chat I asked Lati why he gave in like that. Lati said he was afraid of being excluded from dibao and that RMB 700 was better than nothing. Lati did not even dare to ask for a receipt, though I assume even if he did ask he would not get one anyway. In the end, Lati was 650 short of his due, the money that Chairman Jiang took remained unaccountable, and Lati did not receive any payment in 2014. For some reason, I was more angry than Lati after I was retold the story.

I immediately asked my brother Changxian to telephone Xu Congchang, who worked as a social work officer in the Yinbaohu Township government, to see if I could pay him a visit. In fact, I had met Congchang the night before when he came to a celebration dinner for my nephew’s wedding. Congchang and I were good friends back when I was in Gao Village, and we slept near each other on bunk beds when we participated in local militia training together. Later, tons haul; lotned the Chinese navy and we kept correspondence for some years belitre I Iril Gao Village. I walked to Xu Village and talked to Congchang about Lati’s case. Congchang was sympathetic and promised to look into the matter when he returned to work from the Chinese New Year holiday. Before I left Gao Village, I also asked Changxian to telephone Congchang to make sure that the matter had been dealt with. The latest I heard is that Lati is getting paid as a dibao person for the year 2015. As for 2014, the issue is too murky to clarify, I was told. The party secretary of the township government had actually paid Lati a visit to tell him to keep the matter quiet.

Work, Income, and Life

Lati is in poor health, is weak, often coughs due to bronchitis, and has stomach complaints all the time. He hates the cold weather because that makes his cough worse. We used to be next-door neighbors and one thing I remember of Lati as a child is that he was known to have an irresistible desire to eat charcoal, though I had never seen him doing it myself. He used to be a migrant in Guangdong working as a simple mechanic at construction sites. He taught himself how to work on engines during the Mao era, when Gao Village bought an engine pump to pump water from the river to irrigate rice fields. The pump engine would usually run day and night during summer, and Lati was one of those who would stay at the pump station on night duty. Even this kind of simple skill proved useful when he went to Guangdong in the late 1980s. However, as his son Zhimin’s illness got worse, he had to give up his work in Guangdong to go back to Gao Village, with great regret. For one thing, he preferred the warm weather in Guangdong where he felt much healthier, he told me. Now Lati is too old and weak to be a migrant worker.

He and his wife Yuangui work on a little more than six mu of land. Because Lati is weak and in poor health, most of the physically strenuous work is actually done by Yuangui, who is stronger and healthier. Based on the price index in 2014, what Lati and Yuangui produced was priced about RMB 15,000. Supposing that both of them spent 200 days in a year working in the field, each would earn only RMB 37.5 a day. They probably spend less than 200 days a year working on a little more than six mu of land, but their daily earning would not be more than RMB 5o a day. However, this income is considerably higher than the official poverty line of RMB 2,30o a year, which is set by the Chinese government. Lati and Yuangui have an income of RMB 15,00o a year, which does not include the hidden income that is not calculated. First of all, this income does not include the pigs and chickens that they raise at home. Nor does it include the vegetables they grow for their own consumption. Secondly, they do occasionally earn cash from work in and around Gao Village. For instance, starting in 2015, Lati earned RMB 1,500 a year by collecting rubbish along the main road running through Gao Village.

In 2011 when I visited Gao Village, Lati was still fit enough to work at Gao Wenshu’s construction site for about RMB 100 a day plus a pack of cigarettes. Nowadays, Lati is too weak to do that but Yuangui actually still earns some money from this kind of work in Gao Village, as there is always some construction going on in the village. Lati’s son Zhihua is a migrant worker in Xiamen and now earns RMB 4,000 a month. According to Lati, his son only gives him a few hundred RMB a year. During the 2015 Chinese New Year, Zhihua came home for the festival and left RMB 600 for his parents before he left again for Xiamen. For Lati and Yuangui, this was not only disappointing but worrying. They thought, Zhihua earns a lot, so where is the money? If Zhihua could save up to build a house or for his own marriage, that would be great. But who knows what young people do these days?

When I visited Lati a couple of times in 2015, there was no evidence of lack of food. In fact, the leftovers on the dinner table were good food, like pork, fish, and tofu. When we sat down in the sun in front of Lati’s house, other villagers came along and we were treated with peanuts and tea. The peanuts tasted nice but were commercial ones they had bought from a shop. Lati ran around on an electric motorbike, which was very convenient and easy to use. His clothes—leather shoes, wool-like lined trousers, and an imitation leather jacket, which all appeared new—were more fashionable than those that Yuangui wore. Lati was proud to show me the lining of his trousers, but I guessed it was not real wool, although it still seemed to be warm enough. On the other hand, Yuangui’s shoes, trousers, and jacket were obviously made by herself. Lati told me that his jacket, trousers, and shoes were gifts from his daughter Pingping.

What Does It Mean to be Poor?

During one of those many informal chats when Gao villagers came to see me, one after another, my brother Changxian loudly proclaimed that there were no poor people in Gao Village, a statement concurred with by the other villagers present, including Lati, who said that life was infinitely better now in terms of food and clothing. There were only those who were better off versus those worse off, Changxian further commented, worse off either due to illness or laziness.

Changxian gave an example of one young Gao villager who could earn a few thousand a month and thus save up to start a family. It turned out that the young man would stop work after a couple of months and spend all the money on who knows what, before he would have to look for work again. I did try to talk to this young man but he was reticent and the only relevant information I got out of him was that work was too boring. All the same, this young man was an exception in Gao Village and even he left for Guangdong to look for work a couple of weeks after the Chinese New Year. He said goodbye to me, and added that it was too boring to stay any longer in Gao Village.

How poor is Lati then? For the Gao villagers, the fact that you are not poor is indicated by two accomplishments: that you have built a house that is up to the current standard, and that your son or sons are properly married. Girls are never an issue in rural China these days, for they can always get married. One of the consequences of the post-Mao family planning policies is that there is a huge imbalance between genders, with males far outnumbering females. In other words, the circumstances are such that almost any woman has the luxury of choice when it comes to choosing a husband. In contrast, in urban China there is a sociological phenomenon called shengna (leftover women), meaning women who remain unmarried after the age of 27.

The fact that there are women who remain unmarried in urban China can be explained in a number of ways. One is that there is in general no gender imbalance in urban China. In fact, it is possible that, if anything, there might be more females than males in the cities. This is the case because there is virtually no gender discrimination in urban centers like Beijing or Shanghai, where people would not even think of aborting a child because it is a girl. This lack of discrimination in urban centers has nothing to do with them having a higher quality of people (the so-called suzhi), as some Chinese intellectual elite would like to claim, but can be attributed to two main facts. The first fact is that away from clan villages and lineage traditions, urbanites don’t have the peer pressure or traditional value of having the male to carry on the family line.

The second fact, which is more powerful in influencing changing mentality, is that urban people have had a better welfare system for a long time, ever since the Mao era. Parents do not need, as rural people do, a son to stay with them and look after them when they are old, since they are looked after by the State. Another reason why more urban women remain unmarried is that women, for reasons that are too complex to discuss here, are not supposed to marry men whose social status is lower than theirs. A female university graduate would not marry a non-tertiary educated male; a woman with a doctorate degree would not likely seek a man without a postgraduate degree.

Most of all, and most definitely, an urban woman would not marry a migrant worker from rural China. The wall that has divided the urban and rural has never been higher. In many ways it is like a caste system. In any case, Lati and Yuangui have not accomplished either of the two achievements that is evidence of success and symbolic of not being poor. Even though their daughter has married, their surviving son Zhihua is still single at the age of 37. Every year, one of the main reasons that Lati and Yuangui want their son to come back to Gao Village during the Chinese New Year is to help him find a marriage partner. In 2015 when I was there, Zhihua was arranged to meet two women in nearby villages; however, Zhihua failed in securing a partner. They had wasted RMB 400 on the go-between, Lati complained. I was curious to know why Zhihua had failed in getting a marriage partner, as he was reasonably good looking and earned RMB 4,000 a month, which was not too bad for a rural villager in current China. Several reasons were offered.

One was that the Lati family did not have an impressive house to show, and this was of course known around the area. They had started to build a house but the project was stopped due to lack of money, as a result of Zhimin’s illness and Lati not being an earning migrant worker in Guangdong anymore. The second floor of the house has been left unfinished and they do not have the money to decorate either the interior or the exterior of the house. Compared to the other beautifully decorated and imposingly big houses in Gao Village, the description of which is in the next chapter, this decent and adequate, though not luxurious, house looks an eyesore. Another reason offered was that Zhihua is another laoshi ren, like his father: inarticulate, timid, and simple. Zhihua would not know how to start a conversation, especially among strangers. He would appear nervous in this kind of situation. This weak point was especially damaging in Zhihua’s prospect of looking for a female partner, because these days even rural young women would have had a few years of education and would have “seen the world” as they are also migrant workers. They would not start a relationship with a man if they were not attracted to him in the first instance.

This lack of attractive personality is made worse in regard to Zhihua’s prospect of finding a marriage partner by the fact that there are so many men looking for female partners. Lati could see the situation clearly. The second woman that Zhihua met during the 2015 Chinese New Year actually was a divorced woman with a child. For Lati and Zhihua, to agree to meet a woman of these circumstances was already a concession on their part. For a long time in Gao Village, according to traditional values, a divorced women was considered to be second rate for marriage, and in the mind of some even today, a breakdown of marriage is always the fault of women, just as it is considered to be the fault of the wife if she does not give birth to a son. Of course, that kind of attitude and value is eroding in China, but Lati indicated that he had lowered his standard in agreeing that his son meet a divorced woman with a child. Alas, the problem was his; on the day when Zhihua met that woman, five other men were lining up to meet her, as Chinese New Year is the time when young migrant workers return to their home villages to get married or to look for marriage partners.

Why Is Lati’s Family Poor?

Apart from the fact that he is weak and always sick, which reduces the chance of making more income on the one hand and incurs a considerable medical cost on the other, another reason is that his son Zhimin’s epilepsy meant that not only could he not make an income like other young men in the village, but he also incurred significant medical costs also. Furthermore, Zhimin’s illness meant that Lati, who could have made some money as a migrant worker for a few more years, was unable to do so. Yet another reason why the family was poor, Lati pointed out to me, was that as Zhihua was single, the family had lost income from another able person. If he had a daughter-in-law, she would work as a migrant worker earning something like RMB 3,000-4,000 a month for the family. According to Lati, his family was caught in a conundrum: unless he has a good house ready, no girl will marry his son, but he is not able to build a house unless there is additional income.

Underlining all these reasons is the fact that farming does not make enough income; not enough to get married, not enough to build a house. All the successful households in the Gao Village area are successful because of additional income from sources and work other than farming. Farming can yield you enough to eat, maybe to clothe oneself, but not enough to build the best house possible.

Conclusion

In this chapter, I have discussed the life of an individual, Gao Lati, and his family, to illustrate what it is to be poor in Gao Village. There are several conclusions that can be drawn from the personal life of Lati. The first one is that, in terms of income, the poor in Gao Village are still considered to be above both the World Bank’s and the Chinese government’s official poverty line. From what I can observe, this seems to be the case in the Gao Village area and in the whole of Poyang County, which is classified as one of the poor counties by the provincial authorities of Jiangxi, which itself is considered a second-tier and backward agricultural province without much industry.

There is also some anecdotal evidence that Gao Village is certainly not among the poorest in China. During the 2015 Chinese New Year, I encountered a very pretty and articulate young mother of a six-year-old child, a daughter-in-law of a Gao villager, who looked like a university student. She was from Hubei Province and worked in Hainan, but traveled back to Gao Village every Chinese New Year to see her child, who had been left behind with the grandparents. She said she liked Gao Village, much better than her home village in Hubei. She spoke perfect Mandarin and, of course, her hometown language, but also the Gao Village dialect. When she heard that I was living in Australia, she said the company where she worked produced massage armchairs that were even exported to Australia. The fact that such an able woman finds Gao Village better than her hometown is an indication that Gao Village is certainly not the poorest in China. Furthermore, two Gao Village women divorced their husbands after they had visited their husbands’ hometowns.

One man was from Hubei and the other from Sichuan. Why did the two Gao Village women want to divorce them? “Tamen tiaojian tai cha” (“their conditions are too bad”), they told me. The second conclusion is that the rural sector is still at the bottom end of Chinese society and farming, or at least household farming, is at the very end of the bottom. Gao Villagers have only recently started to enjoy some kind of welfare in terms of education, health care, and retirement, which the urban sector has taken for granted since the Mao era. The fact that there are no longer any taxes on agriculture, and that instead there are subsidies, is a great improvement for rural people.

However, the cessation of taxes and introduction of subsidies are still not enough for farmers to make a living. The villagers have to rely on earnings from migrant workers. Further evidence of the rural sector being at the very bottom end of Chinese society is the fact that even the urban unemployed would not be willing to work as a migrant worker. These days, migrant workers from rural China do not just work in foreign-owned companies such as Apple or Foxconn. State-owned Chinese firms and enterprises employ migrant workers from rural China to do the most strenuous work with the lowest pay, keeping better pay and better conditions for the urban registered workers.

The third conclusion is that the conceptualization of poverty is not something that can be taken for granted. For Gao villagers, currently what is poor is defined by the inability to build a house that is up to the current standard, and to get the family’s son or sons properly married. China may still be considered a developing country, but daily necessities such as basic food and shelter are no longer the main and only aims and purpose of life for most people, even the poorest in Gao Village.

Finally, the story of Gao Lati is relevant to the issue of the GDP in China. There have long been debates of whether China’s GDP is overestimated or under-reported. In scientific terms, there are certainly inaccuracies in the Chinese government statistics. This case study of Gao Village suggests there is no systematic record of incomes or GDP at the grass roots level in the rural sector.

The evidence from my study here seems to suggest that the GDP in the rural sector is under-reported. To what extent and in what way this has an effect on the aggregated county, and then provincial statistics, is beyond the inquiry of this book. Amazon: Gao Village Revisited. [Reprinted here by express permission of Prof. Gao].

Godfree publishes Here Comes China, a weekly newsletter of informed news and opinion.

<strong>Notes</strong>

[1] How People In China Afford Their Outrageously Expensive Homes, by Wade Shepard. Forbes, Mar 30, 2016

[2] Most legislation begins as a challenge to provincial administrators to find local solutions to national problems. They do so by creating Trial Spots, experimental programs to demonstrate their creativity, competence, and fitness for promotion. Currently there are thousands of Trial Spots underway addressing problems ranging from childhood obesity to vandalism.

[3] Blood Selling Tells Bitter Story of Poverty in China. Xinhua. 2010-09-22

[4] China’s iconic revolutionary base Yan’an bids farewell to poverty. Xinhua. 2019-05-07

[5] One quarter of the world’s most profitable corporations–mostly banks and insurance companies–are State Owned Enterprises, SOEs.

[6] In 2018 he set the goal of reducing inequality to world-leading levels–below Finland’s–by 2035.

[7] Wages in Manufacturing in China. Trading Economics. Adjusted for purchasing power parity.

[8] Oxford Economics, quoted in ‘Made in China’ labor is not actually that cheap. by Sophia Yan CNN. March 17, 2016

[9] Spatial Price Differences and Inequality in the People’s Republic of China: Housing Market Evidence,” Chao Li & John Gibson, 2014. ”Asian Development Review, MIT Press, vol. 31(1), pages 92-120, March.

[10] Regional Inequality in China allowing for Spatial Cost-of-Living Differences: Evidence from a Hedonic Analysis of Apartment Prices. Chao Li, John Gibson. IDEAS.

[11] China’s Got a $46,000 Wealth Gap Problem. Bloomberg News. May 21, 2018

 
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  1. Andrei says:

    There’s another thing about the Chinese system. The CCP can rein in capitalism and inequality at any time, because the party is stronger than the capitalist class and the top capitalists are always monitored by the Secret Services so as not to gang up against the state. In Western countries, capitalists are stronger than the state, so if the state were to try and move against them (confiscate their wealth or try to push some truly substantial taxation), the capitalists would be able to topple the state before that happened.

    This is why capitalists love electoral-style “democracy”: it pits different parties against each other, and if one of them tries to go after them, the capitalists back the other with money and media influence.

  2. Anonymous[852] • Disclaimer says:

    The people who *REALLY* run the west – behind the curtains of the political Punch and Judy Show – that is the Davos Crowd, the Globalists, The Economist Magazine etc, really honestly *DO NOT GIVE A SHIT* about income equality, grinding poverty etc.

    In fact, they love it – more servants, more cheap prostitutes etc etc.

    • Agree: HeebHunter, Alfred, Ugetit
    • Replies: @anon
  3. A former merchant of quack ED medicine made from ground up turtle pills just made $50 billion from his bottled water company, so I think China still has room to improve

  4. @Andrei

    The CCP are the capitalists at the top; the monopoly capitalists. Many of them are connected to the gang that seized power after the death of Mao. They were on the ground floor when the U.S. during the time of Nixon began transferring western technology to spark Chinese development.

    Like all monopoly capitalists their objective is to control the other 99% and their capitalist opportunities. That is why their is no real permanent property ownership and that is why the cities are being set up with the Social Credit Score system of total surveillance and control. Can’t have the livestock running around loose. Monopoly capitalism always requires government collusion.

  5. Andrei says:
    @mark tapley

    This is just Trotskyist or anarchist sophistry. In any society you will have people required to lead, people more capable than the rest. And of course there will be some measure of abuse of that power. The question is whether the rulers’ decisions benefit society as a whole and you have plenty of concrete, factual arguments in this article alone to answer that.

    Unlike the capitalist class, which doesn’t really answer to anyone (even the laws are written by them to benefit them) the state apparatus is implicitly responsible for anything that goes wrong. There is no such thing as “state capitalism”. Either the state rules capitalists, or the capitalists rule the state.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts, Miro23, xcd
    • Replies: @mark tapley
    , @Realist
    , @anon
  6. PJ London says:

    “People who live at subsistence level want first things to be put first. They are not particularly interested in freedom of religion, freedom of the press, free enterprise as we understand it, or the secret ballot. Their needs are more basic: land, tools, fertilizers, something better than rags for their children, houses to replace their shacks, freedom from police oppression, medical attention, primary schools.”
    ― Mao Tse-tung, Mao Tse-Tung On Guerrilla Warfare

    “There are two principles here: one is the actual needs of the masses rather than what we fancy they need, and the other is the wishes of the masses, who must make up their own minds instead of our making up their minds for them.”
    ― Mao Tse-tung

    The people of the west see societies through their lenses and cannot conceive of alternative viewpoints.

    Then complain that Africa, Arabia and Asia are barbaric.

    Whereas, other societies see theWest as shallow, selfish and materialistic.

  7. @PJ London

    Is Mao really that different than Maslov?

    • Replies: @PJ London
    , @Ugetit
  8. PJ London says:
    @Curmudgeon

    No but the idealistic, opinionated critics who live in ivory towers, far removed from the realities of work-a-day people, need reminding.
    As do those numpties that believe all the nonsense the critics write.
    How many times do the professors tell you that what the poor down-trodden blacks really need is …..

    • Agree: Curmudgeon
  9. In the figure about home ownership, it seems the caption below the left-hand barchart should be “*above* median income”, or else I don’t understand why ownership for that income bracket is higher than for the general population. If it is the effect of di1bao3 or some other state intervention, an explanation would be welcome.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @Ron Unz
  10. @Andrei

    Who do the thugs ruling China answer too? No one but their own criminal cartel, just like in Mao’s great leap forward that caused the deaths of 60 million. Every tyrant uses the excuse of benefiting society when in fact the only ones they are benefiting are themselves and their cronies. Who decides what benefits society? Did the one child rule that caused the deaths of millions of innocent children benefit society? Did the starvation of 60 million resulting from the edict of an ignorant despot benefit society. I recommend you read the book by Mao’s personal physician for over 20 years “The Personal Life of Chairman Mao.” and “Mao’s Great Famine.”

    Government will never limit itself. As Jefferson said “let us hear no more own confidence in men, but bind them down with the chains of the Constitution.” When you have big gov,. you have big corruption. China has both. The power of government must be limited by the rule of law. You go on about capitalists, but everyone is a capitalist. The issue is whether it is free market capitalism that benefits everyone with the fruits of their labor in the elaborate mechanism of individual actions or whether it is monopoly capitalism (socialism) that is a racket run in collusion with the government for the benefit of the elite.

    If the thugs holding power in China really want to benefit society rather just aggrandize more power at the top then they should all step down and allow the people to set up a real republic with all the different regions having real representation. Property rights and contracts have to be enforced and the government’s power to invade the lives of the people in warrantless intrusions and spying must cease. The Thugs that run China are not installing the Social Credit System for nothing. Property rights are not limited for no reason and the self determination of the people of Hong Kong has not been trampled on for the social good but as another example of the abuse of power from the thugs at the top.

  11. @mark tapley

    Complete nonsense.

    This entire article contradicts your claims and for which there is no evidence.

    • Disagree: neutral
    • Replies: @Jazman
  12. @Jean-Marie L.

    In the figure about home ownership, it seems the caption below the left-hand bar chart should be “*above* median income”, or else I don’t understand why ownership for that income bracket is higher than for the general population.

    Ownership for that income bracket is higher than for the general population because the government of China is Communist.

  13. Who do the thugs ruling China answer too?

    They answer to Congress.

    No one but their own criminal cartel, just like in Mao’s great leap forward that caused the deaths of 60 million. I recommend you read the book by Mao’s personal physician for over 20 years “The Personal Life of Chairman Mao.” and “Mao’s Great Famine.”

    I recommend you read some actual history, rather than fantasy, starting here: https://www.unz.com/article/mao-reconsidered-part-two-whose-famine/
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSwu9_UuXVgGipDwApCnGcZVlbgWXeFSRwbMQyevSpJmr_yLzp3vBL5hXPZdVGfgv41jsUj3LUkroKN/pub

    Who decides what benefits society? Did the one child rule that caused the deaths of millions of innocent children benefit society? Two-thirds of Chinese decide what benefits society. Not just two-thirds of an invisible oligarchy, or two-thirds of officials, but two-thirds of 1.4 billion people based on surveys, and voted on by two-thirds of Congress. That’s how they handle legislation and this is the result:

    When you have big gov, you have big corruption. China has both. I can see evidence for that in the USA, but not in China. What evidence have you seen?

    If the thugs holding power in China really want to benefit society rather just aggrandize more power at the top then they should all step down and allow the people to set up a real republic with all the different regions having real representation. Property rights and contracts have to be enforced and the government’s power to invade the lives of the people in warrantless intrusions and spying must cease

    . You’ve described the USA, a failing state, not China.

    The Thugs that run China are not installing the Social Credit System for nothing.

    Correctamento! They’re installing it because two-third of people there want it. Ask your Chinese friends to explain why or, if you have none, think how pleasant our lives would be if we and the cops didn’t have to deal with assholes all the time.

    Property rights are not limited for no reason and the self determination of the people of Hong Kong has not been trampled on for the social good but as another example of the abuse of power from the thugs at the top.

    Hong Kong is the most expensive housing market in the world, the most expensive healthcare market in Asia–second only to the US–and the most expensive education system in the world. Hong Kong parents spend three times global average on education.

    More than 1.4 million people were living below the poverty line in Hong Kong in 2018. The city’s poverty rate rose 0.3 percentage points to 20.4 per cent, the second highest since records began in 2009. Within the last 25 years, Hong Kong’s middle class shrank to about 10% of the population while gross domestic product grew by 26 per cent. The average household income of the top 10 per cent of the population increased by 21 per cent, to HK$104,900 a month, according to Hong Kong Census and Statistics Bureau.

    Within one generation, 20% of HKers fell below the poverty line, despite rapid overall economic growth. Hong Kong: 20% of residents live in poverty And this is not counting the invisible bottom rung – the ~ 400,000 “domestic helpers”, aka foreign servants, who are not allowed to live independently but must lodge inside their employers apartments, and are allowed only one day a week off-work. Incomes for the lowest-earning 10 per cent of households dropped by HK$100, to an average of HK$2,500 in 2010. And the 80 per cent of the population in between saw their incomes grow only marginally, well below the 14 per cent increase in the Consumer Price Index.

  14. Erebus says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    … ~ 400,000 “domestic helpers”, aka foreign servants, who are not allowed to live independently but must lodge inside their employers apartments…

    Not sure about the “not allowed” part. Rather, I thought that the employer must make that available or the city would face ghettos with foreign domestic staff living 10/room in squalor. Simply, there’s nowhere near the available housing for 400k extras. HK can’t house its own.

    You probably know that in order to build/start a factory in China, the employer had to make available accommodation for the staff. Most of the workers had migrated from a town or village in the hinterlands and would have had to be accommodated in the local rental market. As that didn’t yet exist in most places, and to keep exploitation by landlords at bay, factories had/have to supply accommodation themselves. No suitable dormitory, no license to operate.

    Dormitories had to be built to the standards set by the local labour dept. No luxury to be sure, but in most cases significantly better than whatever accommodation the worker may have had at home in their villages. That’s how China avoided the shanty towns that mar many other cities in the developing world.

    • Thanks: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @xcd
  15. @Godfree Roberts

    China has been built up starting in the late 70’s by massive investment of U.S. Fortune 500 companies. This really got going in the 90’s and we know that the Clinton ad. transferred lots of technologies to the Chinese. Soros (Swartz Gyorgy) said that “China is the economic engine of the NWO.” David Rockefeller even wrote the obituary for Mao in the 70’s in The New York Times, saying that “his grand social experiment was a great success. ” The fact that approximately 60 million people died of starvation was of no consequence to the elites. To get a picture of how the mind of a totally corrupt degenerate despot works I recommend everyone read “The Private Life of Chairman Mao” written by his long time personal physician. Mao had no more concern for the people of China than he would stepping on a bug. While millions of people were starving in the communist utopia of the “Great Leap Forward”, the sybaritic tyrant Mao had every type of delicacy cultivated in his private gardens. Thats the way communism works. We see the same thing with the hierarchy of the entirely Zionist manufactured Soviet Union with Stalin and his cronies who while they were murdering and starving millions, lived in lavish dachas and had private zoos. China has been built up as was the Soviet Union and will be used in the Zionist plan just as was the USSR.

    You mention a Congress representing the will of the people. Was the peoples will being expressed in the one child policy that wrecked the domestic culture of the country resulting in the deaths of millions of infant girls. China is still adjusting from this Great leap also. No one but a bunch of communist thugs would come up with something this hideous when the population would naturally decrease as it has everywhere else as people have moved out of subsistence farming

    That brings up the issue property. The best indicator of the true prosperity of a society is how well property rights and contracts are enforced. In china they follow rule no. 1 of Marx (Moses Mordecai Levy) Manifesto which calls for the abolition of all private property. The thugs that rule China keep a tight grip on property rights because they all know that property ownership and perpetual inheritance are the true hallmarks of a free people. Look at California. There are large suburban areas of Chinese immigrants who have left the Chinese paradise and come to the U.S. for that very reason. The graft you show is just more socialist propaganda. Governments produce nothing but merely redistribute the fruits of production (like China’s shoddy construction and empty cities) while wasting much of it in bureaucracy, and cronyism. The best way for all governments to help the great mass of people would be to leave them alone.

    Where is all that representation when it comes to the Chinese of Hong Kong? They are overwhelmingly opposed to uniting with the Mainland. You refer to the problems in Hong Kong but the biggest problem over many years other than interference from the power hungry mainland dictators has been the constant influx of people to Hong Kong from the mainland. If Hong Kong were so bad why has this been the case? Everything is carefully censored on the mainland but that has not been the case in Hong Kong. Why is that? People filming and doing documentaries in China are well aware of the censorship and restrictions by the government.

    In China’s long history of mainly impoverished struggle for all but the elite there had never been a culture of republican limited government and individual liberty until recent times because of some exposure to the west. Now the global Zionist syndicate is tightening it’s grip everywhere, but china is leading the pack and is the model for the NWO. The Social Credit Score system of total surveillance and control with face recognition capability is in use now in Chinese Cities. If someone so much as crosses the street wrong they will be alerted and fined immediately. This is not enlightened representation but the dystopian lion’s paw of the new age of high tech feudalism.

  16. TKK says:
    @mark tapley

    Mr. Roberts does not entertain any criticism, no matter how mild, of the CCP.

    To aggressively hamfist an idea of of 1.4 billion people living in blissful utopia—where around 500 million people, or 40 percent of the population within China, survive on $5.50 per day or less—is insulting to the Unz reader.

    His flagrant bias and unwavering propaganda to cheerlead the CCP erases any credibility or authority he has when analyzing the vast world that is China.

    • Troll: Godfree Roberts, Alfred
    • Replies: @Alfred
    , @TKK
    , @mark tapley
  17. Anon[260] • Disclaimer says:

    In 2019, Mentech, a telecom manufacturer in coastal Dongguan, offered regular wages plus $1,100 guaranteed monthly overtime, air-conditioned dorms, free Wi-Fi, and birthday presents. Monthly manufacturing wages averaged $1800 in 2019[7] and overtime, bonuses, company housing and free meals allow workers to send money home.

    Are these amounts in RMB or US Dollar?

    How much does a college graduate, computer science major in a first or second tier city make fresh out of college if they work for a company like Microsoft, JP Morgan, Tencent or Alibaba? How about 10 or 20 years out? I read that the president of China makes only $26k a year, which begs the question, how does an average professional in China make enough money to send their kid(s) to college in the US, or could come up with $1M for an EB-5 investor visa? Yet everywhere I look in the West Coast, I see and hear China people. I suspect many are living here on tourist visas.

    I think the 4m Chinese in the US is a gross under count. Their true number is probably 5 to 10x larger. It seems as soon as they can afford it, they leave China for greener pastures.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  18. @Godfree Roberts

    I agree with Mark Tapley, and just because what he said isn’t represented in you’re article, does not prove him wrong. I mean you are biased by you’re own article as it represents your point of view does it not?
    China, ruled by rich totalitarian oligarchs, the U.S., ruled by rich puppet master oligarchs, however we do have a Constitution, however weakened it has become, which keeps some restraint on rich would be totalitarian oligarchs in the U.S.,
    who at least have to put up the veneer that the average American citizen has certain freedoms and rights, although that veneer is quickly dropping as proven since Trump was elected.
    You can write article after article, like Larry Romanoff, Unz’s resident pro China propagandist, revelling in the communist / socialist wonders of the great tiger China. But we still don’t want your damn communism / socialism.

  19. @mark tapley

    I’m out of agree buttons, but I’m in complete agreement with you. Both your comments were excellent, Roberts is trying to sell us on China being the great new society of the future. He can razzle dazzle us with all the stats, charts and graphs he wants, I’m not buying his b.s.!
    If the Chinese people like it, great, good for them! But Americans / western Europeans are not Chinese. How many wars have we fought both hot and cold to stop totalitarian communist regimes over the past century?

    • Thanks: mark tapley
    • Replies: @Realist
    , @Biff
    , @Ugetit
    , @denk
  20. Waiting for DoD and State Department shills to chime in with childish insults lol 😂

    This is a divine and rightous development. May the subhuman ideologies of the 18th and 19th century die for good.

  21. @mark tapley

    You haven’t the slightest idea what you’re on about.

    The quickest way to ruin your dynastic business is to get involved with the Communist Party directly. As you climb the ladder, you will have to dismantle your corporation by nationalizing components of it as proof of loyalty, ruin its productivity (and your own dynasty’s security in said business) by nepotism, or get wrung dry in Guanxi (关系) relationship-building in order to get promoted. There is a particular disaffection with the hereditary nomenklatura (Descendants of the Eighth Route Army commanders) towards businessmen of any stripe — and the upper echelons wouldn’t allow a merchant into their midst. Confucian caste rules still apply there. CCP are the mandarins. The Mandarins skim off the top through taxation, but the Ming would behead them if they ever played a role in direct mercantile activity. Same rules apply now.

    My father-in-law had political ambitions in the early 70s when Zhou Enlai was the Big Man and was eager to bring the Manchus and Inner Mongolians in as military-industrial elite. Inheriting the “Directorship” (read: Hereditary Right) of a large mining operation was unacceptable for ascending in the Cadre. His choice was clear: Ascend the ladder fast and ride the political Tiger by trading the sinecure, or remain content as a very rich, very safe man in upper Manchuria. He chose the latter.

    The mercantile class and the globalists have the Jiusan Society as their political wing. It is subsidiary to the CCP, but exerts a fair amount of pressure by effectively bribing politburo members to advocate on their behalf. Same playbook as the internationalists in the West, but with minimized effects. You go against the party will too many times — a “corruption scandal” materializes, and you are shot in a ditch after a speedy show trial like Gang Yong.

  22. frankie p says:
    @Andrei

    Trump has said a number of times that the fact that Americans and their health insurance providers, be they private or Medicare/Medicaid or paid out of pocket, should pay for medicines at the rate of the lowest cost of any foreign single payer health insurance system. He even convened a meeting for the CEOs of all the American Big Pharma companies to discuss this issue. NOBODY CAME! Not one CEO answered the call from the President of the United States. The corporate capitalists and their big finance brothers run the shit show in the US and the west in general. The government MUST rein in the corporatocracy for the good of the grass roots.

    The four categories of the people (四民) was an occupation classification used in ancient China by either Confucian or Legalist scholars as far back as the late Zhou dynasty and is considered a central part of the fengjian social structure (c. 1046–256 BC). These were the shi (gentry scholars), the nong (peasant farmers), the gong (artisans and craftsmen), and the shang (merchants and traders). History has recorded them in this order.

    The categorization was sorted according to the principle of economic usefulness to state and society, that those who used mind rather than muscle (scholars) were placed first, with farmers, seen as the primary creators of wealth, placed next, followed by artisans, and finally merchants who were seen as a social disturbance for excessive accumulation of wealth or erratic fluctuation of prices.

  23. Tor597 says:
    @mark tapley

    This is just a bunch of concern trolling propaganda.

    1) To say that China, when it was at its weakest and most impoverished, trampled on the rights of its people is not the point. America did the same thing.

    The fact is from that point forward China has become more egalitarian and individual rights of people at the very bottom has increased as poverty has gone down.

    This is the opposite of what we see in the west.

    2) You admit that there is now a culture of limited government and individual liberty in China, but only lol because of pressure from the west.

    This is ludicrous. As China has become more prosperous, it has increased rights and representation of it people independent of what the west wants.

    What the west fears the most is living standards of the poorest people in China improving along with their rights increasing because this makes the west look bad since they are moving in the opposite direction.

    3) You cite property rights of HK, but why should China lose land because the west is sponsoring color revolutions? Do you think America would tolerate this?

    I will take you seriously when you also are concerned about Catalonian rights, Irish rights, Aboriginal rights etc etc.

    4) You are holding China to a standard no other country would pass.

    Tell me, which country passes your standards for freedom and liberty? America?

    5) To say that China is leading the NWO is projection. China along with Russia and Iran are the only countries left righting off the globalist one world order lead by America and not China.

  24. frankie p says:
    @mark tapley

    The more that you speak and write, the more evidence you give that the Chinese under the control of the Communist Party have the ability to change and improve their systems; they are a flexible, responding party, and they have made countless changes that have benefited the people of China. You throw out examples from decades ago. The Great Leap Forward, The Cultural Revolution, The Anti-Rightist Campaigns are all ANCIENT history. The books you mention, which sit on my bookshelf, are testaments to a past time, a time of the cult of personality, and yes, the excesses were terrible.

    Your insistence on ignoring the positive developments wrought by the policies of the CCP in the past 30 to 40 years smacks of a child sticking fingers in the ears and saying “Na, na, na, na, na, na.”

    Who decides what benefits society? Good question. I guess everyone can make a judgement, and I too, can judge as I do, by outcomes for the common man. China is succeeding wildly in this, and my country, the US, is failing miserably. Look at the plank in your own eye and stop focusing on the speck in the eye of the CCP. Stop your unhinged libertarian ranting and realize that different governments and systems DO result in different outcomes for the people. Realize that for many common Chinese, the Social Credit System protects them from unscrupulous businessmen who tend to rip off the people. Do I support the Social Credit System? No! Look for it soon in the west, as those who don’t behave correctly and agree to the Gates digital ink vaccine will not be permitted to fly. What do we have in the US to protect us from the predators who suck the blood from our people through usury, consumerism, pornography, Hollywood shit, and opiod addiction?

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts, Tor597
  25. @mark tapley

    Lol, even more sophistry. The (((west))) is worst than every single instance you listed.

  26. @mark tapley

    Well, this state department shill is much more educated than those employed by the alphabet soups, I admit.
    But still the same old same old of muh freedumb, muh investment in China, which is hilariously ironic when you just think about it for 5 seconds. It would dimiss everything that comes after.

    Look, we all know your lot really wants a world war with the Chinese, hmmh. But street gangs, trannies, liberals do not make an army, mmkay?

    You might want to reverse your course of development first. Oh wait, that would make you become evil chyna!

    • Agree: Ghan-buri-Ghan, Tor597, xcd
    • Troll: Biff
    • Replies: @Biff
  27. slorter says:
    @mark tapley

    Good article ! Lots to look at for reference!

  28. @mark tapley

    The following is my discussion with someone on another forum some years ago:

    [MORE]

    .

    {[*Bar the Chinese themselves of course, who ran the second biggest war in history by deaths with foreigners only in a supporting role. Taking a port or two and demanding free trade by brute force vs twenty million dead.]
    .
    So, which is this “second biggest war in history by deaths”? Are you trying to make up something?
    .
    [Not at all. Taiping Rebellion.]
    .
    Thanks! Those are EXACTLY the words I wanted you to say.
    .
    As I said before, though not a history buff, I do pay attention to some important historic events and Taiping Rebellion is one of them. As I understand, the power of each sides in that struggle were very close– Perhaps with a small advantage with the revolutionaries. That was one reason why the struggle was so bitter and casualty so high.
    .
    The Taiping armies were closing in and they managed to take Tianjin and was poised to take Peking. It could well have been the end of the Qing dynasty there and then– Until the imperialist West saw that they were better off with the Qing than with a new revolutionary regime, which most likely would not be accommodating to the imperialistic designs of the Western powers.
    .
    The intervention by the imperialist powers, with their superior weapons and modern fighting methods, proved decisive and the revolution was put down.
    .
    Now, if there were NO imperialist intervention in that struggle, the Taiping armies would most likely have won the struggle. Then China would not have to go through decades more of the corrupt Qing rule. There would not have been a Warlord period either because the country would have been ruled by a single revolutionary government.
    .
    With a Taiping government in place, China would have started industrializing then and would be able to withstand the Japanese invasion, which came later, far better– Both because of higher industrialization and a united political establishment and would not have opposing forces of KMT and CCP fighting each other, instead of the enemy.
    .
    Without the KMT and CCP, China would not have another civil war. Without that, China would not have Mao and his GLF and CR.
    .
    With this single intervention against the Taiping, the West had prolonged all the above sufferings in China. And if you add the extra deaths together, it would be well over 100 millions people. And instead of blaming the West that gave rise to them, you blame the Chinese (the actual victims of that Western act) instead. Well, all I want to say is that you people are no different from the Japanese militarists– And that also explain why you are on their side today.
    .
    Oh, I forgot. The Taiping would have make China a Christian– or at least a pseudo-Christian– country too.}

    • Agree: HeebHunter, xcd
    • Replies: @Supply and Demand
    , @xcd
  29. GMC says:

    Good article – good for China. Home ownership is a false pretense especially in the US. That 2007-8 – Government induced depression, showed that anybody with a mortgage is Not the owner of the house. Millions have found that out, and then look at the local taxes on ” Your Home and Your Land “. Most taxes are in the thousands, each year, so there again – You don’t own your home and land. The taxes in Russia for your flat , house etc. is about 5 to 15 bucks a month and that covers repairing the utilities, roads, garbage pick up, community clean up workers, etc. Very few have mortgages cause of the cash economy. Life is hard enough, no one needs the thought of losing your home because of the mass manipulation of the country, by the corrupt government – Federal or Local. I wonder what China’s taxes are?

    • Agree: Alfred
    • Replies: @Biff
    , @Anon
  30. @VinnyVette

    Please respond to the assertions I made in the article, and point out their errors and shortcomings.

    Instead of representing a point of view, the article makes a series of claims. Which of them are wrong? Why? How?

  31. @Godfree Roberts

    I haven’t been able to open your first link, to a UR article thread, but the second is quite soundly argued as far as I can see except for its failure to take into account the huge advantages for Chinese peasants procreation and survival, especially as infants, as soon as the civil war stopped in 1949. Later, it should be noted, the huge increases in fertility (ultimately leading to the post-Mao one child policy) meant that mortality figures were reduced by the youth of the population compared to earlier days. Not that I’m equipped to argue for much worse consequences of the Great Leap Forward than admitted in that piece.

    I note that you have not backed up your past elevation of Mao by actually dealing with the biographical memoir by his physician that Mark Tapley cites.

    I general I would have more faith in your interesting articles if I knew where the funding was coming from to allow you to produce your propaganda (neutral sense) for the CCP government.

    I long since stopped regarding the US as a democracy in any useful sense but why you don’t recognise the place of financial and career self-interest in the Chinese model of government of what, in its economic aspect, is surely a mixed economy puzzles me. And surely you must have something to say about the very limited extent to which Chinese people (and foreigners from weaker countries) can rely on the Rule of Law as exemplified pretty well by most Western countries, with I fear too many exceptions in the US.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  32. @mark tapley

    Mark, you’re repeating Fox News memes that have no grounding in observable reality.

    Why not produce the evidence for your claims, as I did in the article above? Survey results, court judgements, metrics, anything to help us take your claims seriously.

    • Agree: Tor597
  33. Larry says:

    Insane article.

    Mao is by far the greatest genocidal monster humanity has ever seen, surpassing easily his ideological brothers Hitler or Stalin.

    It is only when China has allowed some modicum of economic freedom that it has turn itself around.

    And as the repugnant dictatorship it is, this can end tomorrow.

    • Troll: Godfree Roberts
  34. @Anon

    The figures are US$ adjusted for PPP.

    Their President makes US$66,000 PPP and other civil servants makes proportionately less, as befits servants.

    Huawei offers starting wages for star graduates comparable to Google’s.

    We’ve had Chinese (and Poles, Swedes, Italians and Mexicans) migrating to the US for 200 years and raising families here, which explains their abundance.

    Affording visas is not a problem. Every week two more people become billionaires and a hundred become millionaires.

    In 2019 Credit Suisse[1] reported, “This year, China recorded more members of the global top 10 percent (100 million) than the United States (99 million), and created 182 new billionaires[2]–compared to America’s fifty-nine–taking its total to 799”.

    Adjusted for productivity, regulations and benefits, Chinese manufacturing workers cost the same in China as in the US. [3]

    A friend who hires workers in both countries, explained why they represent good value:

    At our US facility our only requirement for assemblers is a high school degree, US citizenship, passing a drug and criminal background check, and a simple assembly test: looking at an assembly engineering drawing and then putting the components together. While the vast majority of American applicants were unable to complete the assembly test, in China they completed it in half the time and 100% of applicants passed. Hiring for an assembler position in the US would require thirty interviews a day and produce twenty-nine rejections, not to mention all the HR hassles of assemblers walking off shift, excessive lateness, stealing from work, slow work speed and poor attitudes. The position starts at $12 an hour in flyover country which is pretty reasonable compared to other jobs that only require a GED and no prior work experience. It offers medical, dental and annual raises with plenty of opportunity to move up in the company and earn an average Production Assembler salary, $33,029, if they stay beyond five years. Identical positions in China pay the same wages as other positions there with only a high school degree and no work experience. Yet the applicant quality is much higher and this also applies to the white collar support professionals: schedulers, quality inspectors, equipment testers and calibrators, engineers, supply chain managers, account managers, sales. Their labor quality is simply higher. At the end of the day, high-end and middling manufacturing is not moving to either the US or Mexico because average workers in flyover country cannot meet the demands of twenty-first century manufacturing.

    [1] Credit Suisse Global Wealth Report 2019.
    [2] 2020 Hurun Global Rich List.
    [3] Oxford Economics, quoted in ‘Made in China’ labor is not actually that cheap. by Sophia Yan. CNN. March 17, 2016

    • Replies: @Anon
  35. @Godfree Roberts

    I haven’t been able to open your first link, to a UR article thread, but the second is quite soundly argued as far as I can see except for its failure to take into account the huge advantages for Chinese peasants procreation and survival, especially as infants, as soon as the civil war stopped in 1949. Later, it should be noted, the huge increases in fertility (ultimately leading to the post-Mao one child policy) meant that mortality figures were reduced by the youth of the population compared to earlier days. Not that I’m equipped to argue for much worse consequences of the Great Leap Forward than admitted in that piece.

    I note that you have not backed up your past elevation of Mao by actually dealing with the biographical memoir by his physician that Mark Tapley cites.

    I general I would have more faith in your interesting articles if I knew where the funding was coming from to allow you to produce your propaganda (neutral sense) for the CCP government.

    I long since stopped regarding the US as a democracy in any useful sense but why you don’t recognise the place of financial and career self-interest in the Chinese model of government of what, in its economic aspect, is surely a mixed economy puzzles me. And surely you must have something to say about the very limited extent to which Chinese people (and foreigners from weaker countries) can rely on the Rule of Law as exemplified pretty well by most Western countries, with I fear too many exceptions in the US.

    And BTW what justification is there for not only seeking to insiist on Taiwan becoming a part of China ruled from Beijing as HK effectually now is even though its people do not want it but to be willing to use force? Why can’t it take the civilised view of the EU towards Brexit and the United Kingdom vis a vis Scotland?

  36. padre says:
    @mark tapley

    It is such a shame!Why can’t they be more like US!

  37. @Wizard of Oz

    The links work fine for me.

    I did not address the biographical memoir by his physician that Mark Tapley cites because he was not Mao’s physician.

    All of the salacious stuff in the book was written by his American co-author.

    None of it is backed up by anyone who actually knew Mao. None.

    Why not address what I say, rather than wonder about how support myself?

    China has a dual track approach to law and order. They have (unarmed) police , courts, and (comparatively empty) jails but, for 99% of stuff that we submit to rule of law, they apply rule of virtue:

    If people are ruled by uniform laws and penalized uniformly they’ll always try to avoid punishment but they’ll never develop a sense of shame. If they’re inspired by the good example of admirable leaders they’ll emulate them, internalize their ethics, and gradually become good themselves. Confucius

    One of the responsibilities of government officials is to set a good example and so inspire everyone else to emulate them.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  38. neutral says:

    The author leaves out the fact that China is not overrun by various different races, this is by far the biggest determinant of income inequality and other problems that countries have.

    • Agree: Realist
  39. Realist says:
    @Andrei

    Unlike the capitalist class, which doesn’t really answer to anyone (even the laws are written by them to benefit them) the state apparatus is implicitly responsible for anything that goes wrong.

    Here is a perfect example of your observation. The SCOTUS has passed down egregious decisions that abridge the First Amendment and show contempt for the concept of a representative democracy. Buckley v. Valeo, 424 U.S. 1976 and exacerbated by continuing stupid SCOTUS decisions First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti, Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission and McCutcheon v. Federal Election Commission.
    These decisions have codified that money is free speech thereby giving entities of wealth and power almost total influence in elections.

    • Agree: xcd
  40. @mark tapley

    Your comment actually sounds like Neocon/Leftist scum that is spewed out of each scum politician’s mouth everyday. Most conservatives too. Our white man’s government does not work in other cultures. We forget the the thousands of years of history that preceded communism in China. We have Jesus Christ and they don’t. I don’t understand why white people (most liberals/progressives and conservatives) think our way of life works everywhere? Just shut up and be okay that China does what’s best for China.

    • Agree: Tor597
    • Replies: @anonymous
  41. Realist says:
    @VinnyVette

    But Americans / western Europeans are not Chinese. How many wars have we fought both hot and cold to stop totalitarian communist regimes over the past century?

    All our wars were claimed to be for that reason…but the struggle for world dominance was the real reason. The US should concern itself with internal problems.

  42. Malla says:
    @mark tapley

    Many of them are connected to the gang that seized power after the death of Mao.

    And they were connected to the Globalist financial class. It seems, President Xi screwed the gang up and hence the sudden anger towards China. Only this can explain why the sudden strange extreme hatred towards China.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  43. Ugetit says:
    @PJ London

    Whereas, other societies see theWest as shallow, selfish and materialistic.

    And barbaric, which the record shows, is all too true.

  44. @Godfree Roberts

    1. I am not interested in how you support yourself but am inclined to think that if you have Chinese money paying for research or otherwise assisting with your articles then I should be wary of taking on trust assertions of fact that for one reason or another I cannot reliably research for myself. So, until I know whether you are financially supported by CCP favouring Chinese I will remain not just open minded but suspicious of some pro CCP lines that seem surprising.

    2. You reference to Confucius tells us not much. It is hardly the quintessence of human wisdom to recognise that setting a good example and indoctrinating youth in the virtues is highly desirable if you want a peaceful law abiding population. There are a few problems. Most Chinese régimes/dynasties have not achieved anything close to the Confucian ideal for any considerable length of time – correct me if you can – and amongst the reasons for wondering why a party which could preside over the Cultural Revolution should inspire confidence in its Confucianism is the appalling example of what the Confucian society of Japan could inculcate in its armed services. Emperor worship and dying for the Emperor FGS! And Hitler Jugend comes to mind. (I think you may attribute too much effect to good or bad example rather than indoctrination which relies on the young and impressionable personalities throughout life believing the propaganda, trusting their elders). Your figure of 99% application of the rule of virtue is at odds with human nature, at least if you are suggesting a correspondingly huge effect from virtuous example. More than incidentally it also shows that you are avoiding much of what rule of law means in Western ethics and jurisprudence. Doing the bidding of the prosecution is just not on. And I could go on about hostage taking from nations not of comparable power to the US. The two Canadian businessmen come to mind and three Australian journalists (one ethnic Chinese) have just been treated arbitrarily.

  45. Biff says:
    @VinnyVette

    How many wars have we fought both hot and cold to stop totalitarian communist regimes over the past century?

    Only to get one installed for yourself by the permanent totalitarian government you will never get to elect(NSA, FBI, CIA, NED, DHS, CNN, NBC, MSNBC). Enjoy your colored revolution little boy.

    Suck On This
    Thomas Friedman

    • Agree: xcd
  46. Ugetit says:
    @Curmudgeon

    To bad our “leaders” (parasites, really) in the West at least, generally seem to be forever stuck at level 2, “Safety.”

    Hitler and Mussolini, according to Ezra Pound and Nesta Webster for instance, performed Mao like miracles for their respective countries as well but without nearly the bloodshed and we can see what happened to them.

    I sincerely hope the people and leadership of China fare better.

    • Replies: @xcd
  47. Biff says:
    @GMC

    Life is hard enough, no one needs the thought of losing your home because of the mass manipulation of the country, by the corrupt government – Federal or Local.

    Or a medical bill.

    • Agree: GMC
  48. Ugetit says:
    @VinnyVette

    How many wars have we fought both hot and cold to stop totalitarian communist regimes over the past century?

    None. Zero.

    Instead, under such convenient pretexts “we” saddled ourselves with a bloody totalitarian “commie” regime complete with rapacious, perverted, top down control and we’re living the nightmare as we speak.

    The fact that “we” supported the USSR and Mao ( who apparently was a Yali) tells one all you really need to know, but that fact should at least be the genesis of some inquiries.

  49. Erebus says:
    @Malla

    It seems, President Xi screwed the gang up and hence the sudden anger towards China.

    The anger against Putin and Russia started almost the day he took power. I guess it was clear immediately that he and his backers meant to take Russia out of their reach.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
    • Thanks: GMC
  50. Anonymous[557] • Disclaimer says:

    Jung Chang and Jon Holliday presented the truth about Mao in the Unknown Story, which is banned in China. Mao was a mere cipher, an inveterate liar, a sadist, and in many ways an imbecile who did the bidding of Sidney Rittenberg, Israel Cohen and a bevy of western capitalists. He didn’t write his red book – that was written for him by his committee of (((western))) advisers. He was placed in China by the forerunner to the CIA, the OSS. It’s hilarious to me, reading reasonable assertions that quickly descend into drivel. You are a true acolyte – always moving well beyond a reasonable base into the never-never land of total abasement to these people. Mao and his policies of pig iron and pot clanging to kill all the evil pigeons. Mao and his not fighting the Japanese, whilst pretending to do so. Mao and his mass starvation of Chinese peasants by sending non-existent ‘surplus grain’ to the Soviets to buy artillery. Mao and his systematic burning and pillaging of practically every single artifact of Chinese culture during the cultural revolution – guess whose advice he was following to inflict that on the Chinese people? Mao and his Yenan terror. Why pretend that the Chinese didn’t openly revolt against Mao in 1976 for Deng the little bottle? Why pretend he wasn’t forced to back-down by his superior colleagues in 1962 to stop his manufactured famine? If the people who knew Mao, loved him so, why did on multiple occasions members of the Communist party rebel against his rule, again, and again, and again? Because they understood what people in the west are understanding right now about their particular cipher rulers.

    It’s hilarious you quote Confucius in respect of Mao. Mao personally ordered Confucius’s shrine in Shandong to be destroyed, as an enemy of Mao Tse-tung Thought. He ordered China’s best Architect, Liang Si-Cheng, to be killed. Mme Mao had every old book destroyed, and the only performing arts allowered were eight cretinous ‘revolutionary model shows’.

    I don’t understand this ridiculous need to deify that corpulent little sadist. China is/was great without Mao. Xi is vastly superior to Mao in character and capacity. Of course, for western whites Chinese rule would be stupendously horrific, almost as horrific as direct Jewish rule in a Sinofied national political socio economic society denuded of a first and second amendment, but for the Chinese, he’s been great. Vastly superior to Mao.

    Ways that are dark.

    If you just stuck to the positive aspects of China without trying to distort the truth about the history, you’d be fine. China is superior to the West, currently, simply because it is Chinese. Those problems with human capital are the result of the 1965 immigration bonanza, and the Brazilification of the United States. China is ruled by a Chinese elite. They benefit from that. The West is not ruled by a western elite. The west is no longer western.

    But it’s interesting. As we know, the Jewish mythical IQ is a total myth. But it’s becoming increasingly apparent that so is the Chinese IQ, at least in the West.

    https://freebeacon.com/national-security/report-college-board-became-key-partner-with-chinese-regime/

    I wonder how much cheating on the SAT’s College Board has allowed in the last 20 years by the Chinese in the West? The Jews measured vastly lower on IQ tests then whites for many years, until they got control of the universities.

    The smart hard working Asian Immigrant myth is just another ******* myth.

    Everybody is going to have to go back. If it takes a century of war to determine the contours of post-America, so be it.

    • Disagree: ChineseMom
    • Thanks: Mark G.
    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  51. Vojkan says:
    @mark tapley

    Correction: “Who do the thugs ruling the USA answer too?” Fixed.

    • LOL: Sya Beerens
    • Replies: @mark tapley
  52. Let’s look at what Godless Gottfried Robber says about China and then consider it carefully:

    In 2000, the United Nations set six Millennium Development Goals: eliminate extreme poverty, hunger, disease, inadequate shelter, exclusion, and gender bias in education by 2015 and, since then, on Poverty Relief Day, China’s President and Prime Minister, trailed by TV crews, have visited rural villages to remind urbanites what poverty looks like.

    The implication here is that the government of China is acting on the basis of humanitarian motives to fulfill the the mandate of some highfalutin kumbaya UN project, specifically the “Millennium Development Goals,” as if the Chinese had some sort of universal concern for global poverty and wanted to end poverty for its own sake (and not just help their fellow Chinese – which is totally okay mind you). This is the same kind of fallacy that gets communicated when you hear the oft-repeated trope that China “lifted millions of people out of poverty,” never mentioning the fact that the “millions of people”(excluding the ones killed via Communist terror, anti-rightist campaigns, starvation and famines brought on by the ill-conceived policies of the 1950s and 1960s 5-year plans where micro-managing sparrows was a cornerstone of agricultural policy) were “lifted out” of a self-imposed poverty brought on by the Communist government itself. But, hey, why talk about that when you can whine and complain about the so-called 100 years of humiliation when the Chinese rejected foreign “barbarian” technology in order to preserve their Chinese culture (which they later proceeded to destroy and demolish in the Communist terror whose over-arching ideology was imported from abroad ironically enough).

    That aside, these “millions of people” are just Chinese people, not people in some broad, general sense of the term. Don’t get me wrong: there’s nothing wrong with the Chinese lifting THEIR OWN people out of poverty. But please don’t couch this in universalist, humanitarian terms that suggests some sort of broader concern for global poverty. The Chinese care about themselves first and foremost. The last thing they care about is poverty in Africa, Latin America, etc. The Chinese themselves probably don’t put much stock in what the UN says, it being a leftist, globalist institution dominated by foreigners. I can’t blame them for that, can you? If they do pretend to care about some idealistic leftist UN agenda, then it’s only a publicity stunt and gimmick intended to improve their image abroad and gain some concrete economic advantage. (The US doesn’t really care about these univeralist goals itself and obviously acts in the name of universalism and human rights to pursue its own agenda. However, let’s not praise China for resisting globalist institutions and then for actually participating in them at the same time. The cognitive dissonance is going to make Unz readers get brain cramps).

    Then Godless Gottfriend has the gall to think that Chairman Xi or Premier Li Keqiang going to some village to shake hands with the locals and say, “加油!” is anything but a carefully-manicured photo-op and publicity stunt that obscures the fact that the Politburo members have properties abroad valued in tens of milions of dollars, that they send their children preppy schools abroad (just as Chairman Xi sent his daughter to Harvard), and all have fancy sports cars, private yachts, and you name it. A lot of people would readily ridicule and mock any depiction of Trump pandering to rural and working-class white folk with rallies in the heartland – but somehow the Chinese Chairman or Premier going to a no-name village in rural China is authentic and not scripted, while the American equivalent is all an act? Talk about double standards.

    Let’s continue with Godless Gottfried’s “analysis”:

    In 2016, urban poverty disappeared and, by June 1, 2021, rural poverty will follow it and every Chinese in the lower half of the income distribution will own a home[1]. Here we briefly retrace the steps in this remarkable program before meeting the poorest man in a poor village.

    Urban poverty “disappeared”? Well, the Chinese do a have knack for making people “disappear.” Urban poverty is no exception. They know how to rephrase and re-classify, change definitions, and tinker with the numbers, if not outright lie, that’s for sure. Then Goddfried momentarily morphs into a CCP official, declaring that “rural poverty will follow it and every Chinese….”(haha). As if declaring something to be so (using the future tense at that) were ever somehow tantamount to an argument.

    Next Gottfried purports to show what is probably the most spurious and disingenuous high-school tier Excel graph (yellow background because it means wealth and prosperity in Chinese culture? a little on the campy side if you ask me, don’t you think Gottfried?) that I’ve seen in my life, citing whom exactly? Himself. Gottfried 2020 (your trusted source for everything China). And then … JLW China, which is… who exactly? Who exactly is JLF China and on what basis are they on par with the US Census Bureau for comparison purposes? Is this a CCP-affiliated organization? International third-party? Housing ownership for urban hukou holders in China may very well hover at 70-80% since the privatization of state housing in the late 1990s under Zhu Rongji, but for rural residents it is at less than 10%. I don’t know what made Gottfried Robber think that by some statistical sleight of hand it was possible for all of the income “brackets” in China to be magically “aggregated” into one catch-all umbrella statistic. Why not break that down for us a little Gottfried since your article supposedly is about income inequality. He won’t, because inequality in “home ownership” is one of the areas where the glaring inequality in Chinese society is so great that even Chinese government officials are ashamed of it. Godless Goffried also doesn’t want to tell you about the hukou system in China, which despite some recent “reforms,” is still very much in effect in the major cities, the 1st tier cities particuarly (i.e. Beijing, Shanghai, Chongqing, etc.) and allows for all of those down-trodden peasants shacked up in employer-provided tenements to not exist for purposes of census-gathering and “statistics” dealing with “urban poverty.”

    Godless Gottfried Robber also neglects to tell you that “home ownership” or ownership of land as a concept doesn’t even exist under the Chinese law, where you only have a 70-year LEASE on any land that you supposedly own. Godless Gottfried apparently mistakenly believes that the concept of “home ownership,” as conceived of in a Western liberal democrary (really a plutocracry – I know, I know, please don’t spam me with your banal “but the USA is so-so too” moral equivalence critiques) translates in such a nice and neat way to Communist China that you can put them side-by-side in a simplistic bar graph whose color-clashing, apart from its shameless pandering to Chinese color symbolism) shows a pathetic deficiency in graphic design and computational skills on the part of its maker, the aforementioned Godlesss Gottfried. What’s more, Godless Gottfried doesn’t want you to know that Chinese don’t live in what Western people properly understand as a “house” per se (land and building included) but rather live in what can only be described as apartment buildings slapped together in a rush to reap major speculation profits and huddled together in panoptic gated communities surrounded by barbed wire or spiked fences, with regular “guard” service (China is either a very low-trust society or its government super-paranoid in its totalitarian emphasis on surveillance when literally every housing complex, school, and facility (except those downtown) are panoptic to the nth degree – you take your pick).

    In any case, Godless Gottfried Robber is nothing but a hack and fraud when it comes to the whole China analysis bit.

    • Troll: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  53. @Deep Thought

    Complete Western fantasy. A failed kulak Mandarin would become Emperor, and see no reason to cook the golden goose, just like every other. Revolutions in China before Sun Yat Sen’s were not to change the system, merely to replace its dynasty.

    In fact, the Taiping rebellion convinced Empress Dowager Cixi to build the Beiyang fleet and import General Gordon with 10,000 Lee Enfields. The Portuguese sent an emissary to Jesus’s younger brother and the poor fellow got beheaded on arrival. The artillery piece he brought as a gift was later pawned to a Xinjiang Khan.

    Cixi’s son was a Luddite because he left him to be raised by eunuchs. Thus the backslide and Boxer Rebellion. Never a good idea.

    Additionally, If there is one positive about the warlord period, it is that the warlords who persisted into the 1930s were all aggressive proponents of Industrialization. They were facing the triple barrel of the Japanese, the Communists, and the KMT. They had no other hope for survival. Unlike the Western myths, there was industry in China before Kissinger opened the door. Mao destroyed it.

    • Replies: @Deep Thought
  54. Alfred says:
    @TKK

    survive on $5.50 per day or less

    Compare the cost of medical care between the USA and China. Or education. Or transport. Or food. Or entertainment. Or rent – which almost no Chinese pay.

    People live better on $5.50 daily in rural China than on $55.00 daily in rural USA. 🙂

    • Replies: @TKK
  55. @mark tapley

    The author does have a valid point on inequality and lifting millions out of poverty.

    Unlike Adelson, Bezos, Bloomberg, Gates and ilk, CCP modern mandarins know that vast economic disparities will lead to discontent and violent revolution.

    However, the comparison with the United States is slightly flawed because it includes a huge black and brown underclass.

    • Replies: @mark tapley
  56. @PJ London

    “People who live at subsistence level want first things to be put first. They are not particularly interested in freedom of religion, freedom of the press, free enterprise as we understand it, or the secret ballot. Their needs are more basic: land, tools, fertilizers, something better than rags for their children, houses to replace their shacks, freedom from police oppression, medical attention, primary schools.”

    ― Mao Tse-tung, Mao Tse-Tung On Guerrilla Warfare

    Woeful ignorance.

    Mao was a total disaster for China. The man who arrested the situation is Deng Xiaoping.

    Then complain that Africa, Arabia and Asia are barbaric.

    There are clear differences between various groups. Denying this is folly and the reason we have lots of problems in the world.

    In fact when people talk ‘racism’ or ‘white privilege’ they really mean the cognitive advantage of Europeans.

    • Agree: Mark G.
  57. @mark tapley

    This is such a terrible comment that I think it’s actually a pro-China bot.

    • Replies: @xcd
  58. TKK says:
    @TKK

    Troll? No data, no reasoning, just Troll?

    Because I point out the truth about your constant fellatio of the CCP?

    I hope you are paid to make such a fool of your self- shilling for barbarians.

    And on that note: Those silly Chinese! They eat anything that crawls, swims, flies, or walk and torture their dogs as well.

    When they are not eating them.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8743351/German-shepherd-cries-forced-Chinese-owner-eat-chillies.html

    • Troll: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Sollipsist
  59. I can only wonder if such a miracle as the one described here could have putatively been performed if China’s population were 13 (that lucky number) percent Sub Saharan black plus another 27 percent of shit holers potpourri.

    • Agree: TKK
  60. Ron Unz says:
    @Jean-Marie L.

    In the figure about home ownership, it seems the caption below the left-hand barchart should be “*above* median income”, or else I don’t understand why ownership for that income bracket is higher than for the general population.

    Well, an overwhelming fraction of the lowest-income Chinese are rural peasants, who earn just a fraction of what urbanized workers make. And I’d assume that rural peasants mostly own their own homes, though those homes are obviously not luxurious mansions.

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  61. It is good that essays are published which challenges the current economic orthodoxy no matter from which end of the spectrum but this reads like a government written and approved propaganda piece from an apparatchik whose name is legion (note the nom de plume and the dragon in the Book Revelations.

  62. TKK says:
    @Alfred

    I do not defend the rapacious American health care industry. It is repellent.

    You are comparing apples to hammers. You set up a straw man argument because you have no valid reply.

    I am speaking to the idiocy of believing an author who writes about a country of over 1.3 billions in the sentimental, mawkish fashion a dullard southern grandmother would her favorite spoiled grandchild on a Facebook post with some random statistics thrown in for credibility.

    China is vast: scary, safe, polluted, clean, exciting, sedate- and a million other nuances. If you have been (and I am not sure Roberts has) you would immediately see the lunacy of simplistic reductions about China.

    You also would want to retract your rosy outlook on their healthcare. They do not have socialized healthcare. Rural Chinese have miserable outcomes with cancer, TIAs, and other significant health crisis. They have to scrape up the cash for the best treatments in large metro areas- just like Americans.

    The ability to hold two opposing thoughts in your head and appreciate complexity is a sign of higher intelligence.

    America- bad!
    China- good!

    — is laughable, beyond basic and intellectually retarded.

    • Agree: mark tapley
    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @denk
  63. Anon[260] • Disclaimer says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    “Adjusted for PPP” doesn’t mean much to me. How much are these salaries in nominal dollar terms?

    Emigration from China greatly accelerated in the last decade. The emigrants are mostly wealthy. In a country as corrupt as China, no one can become wealthy without bribes, either by taking them or giving them. The Economist has written about the “naked officials” in China who send their wive and kids overseas after getting enough graft, so they can escape in the middle of the night if need be. The emigrants take with them their ill gotten gains and thus siphon a lot of wealth out of China. China cannot get rich as long as its rich continue to do this.

    I don’t think any ordinary Chinese can afford to send their kids overseas or emigrate, unless they do it illegally like living on or overstaying their tourist visa. The Chinese government doesn’t clamp down on it because they 1) are themselves corrupt and looking for a way out, and 2) think that this is good for China because the emigrants help extend China’s soft power and influence in the West. In reality Chinese immigration has grown so fast in the US and their emigrants(as well students, tourists) are so ill behaved (loud, uncouth, rude, poor English skills) they end up giving people around the world a very negative impression of China. Most people I know avoid them like a plague whichever neighborhood they move into. And you can always tell when a Chinese (or Indian) is the owner of a house because they usually have the shittiest yard, lawn, roof, paint job, even if they buy million dollar homes.

  64. anon[260] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Yep. It’s why Rothschild owned The Economist is always singing the praises of immigration. Everyday at TE is a “hug an immigrant” day. I had said fifteen years ago they should rename themselves The Globalist. As far as they’re concern immigration is all well and good, there is no down side whatsoever to immigration; anyone who disagrees is just a hysterical nativist xenophobe bigot hater. At the start of the Syrian war, they published a cover story “Let Them In, Let Them Work” and depicted Syrian refugees as if they were all college educated professionals instead of a bunch of poor illiterate young men as they really were. I think Angela Merkel’s poor decision to let in 1m and destroyed her career was at least in part influenced by that ill advise.

    America needs a 40 year moratorium on immigration like in 1924 or we will disintegrate within a generation. The more third worlders we take in, the more we will resemble the third world. United States of MexChindia will not be a good place to live.

    • Replies: @Sya Beerens
  65. PJ London says:
    @Amerimutt Golems

    You are of course entitled to your opinion, however hundreds of millions of people followed him, facing starvation on the “Long March”,because they were far worse off under Chiang.
    I understand that it does not fit the US narrative just as Castro and Chavez could not possibly have been more popular than Batista and any other US puppet.
    The US declared economic war on these countries and devastated their economies merely because they did not allow the financial rape of their resources.
    Did you read ; every single “Poor” household even in rural areas had a government employee who was responsible with plans and datelines for lifting the household out of poverty!!!!
    Are you kidding? Try that in Europe or USA see how far you get.
    I am not going to change your world-view, nor do I wish to. I am, merely sharing mine with any who wish to read it.

    • Thanks: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  66. Anon[338] • Disclaimer says:
    @TKK

    Something the China boosters are ignoring or covering up, or maybe they don’t know about it, is that China is still in it’s growth/boom phase of industrialization/infrastructure sugar rush.

    The boom will end. Then the privatization will get going. The observation of the ancient Greeks, ‘revolution, democracy, oligarchy, tyranny, and back to revolution and repeat, will operate in China just as it did in Russia, Soviet Union. After the glory days of industrialization/infrastructure, communism will go where it always ends up, privatization, and the populace will be squeezed.

    The cycle of history will continue, there is no such thing as permanent prosperity.

    They hate us for our property rights. And they will re-institute them.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  67. Half-Jap says:

    As many may have expected, the article is more narrative than convincing the reader about the sufficiency of the data and interpretations.
    It comes off as another propaganda puff piece, even though I do appreciate the improvements in the countryside which I always enjoy visiting. Cities are still only superficially impressive, though.
    The economic project is a function of Party survival, not humanitarianism or whatever you claim, by the way. A win-win, in any event on practical terms, but fake virtue signaling is disgusting.

  68. anon[156] • Disclaimer says:
    @Andrei

    There is no such thing as “state capitalism”. Either the state rules capitalists, or the capitalists rule the state.

    An astute observation. The US is definitely ruled by capitalists, thanks to return of the monopolies first encouraged by Reagan then reinforced by Clinton. The last time the antitrust dept. broke up a company was AT&T under the Reagan era. Clinton actually encouraged companies to merge and become monopolies, esp. in the agricultural sector, which is how 3 multinationals came to own the majority of our farm land. I don’t recall a single time in the last 3 decades where a merger or acquisition was struck down by the DOJ. When Comcast acquired NBC, which totally should not have been allowed as pipeline companies should not also own content, the FCC official who approved the deal became a VP at Comcast soon after the merger. Our DOJ is as corrupt as they get.

    Monopoly power corrupts every society. We can thank Yale law prof Robert Bork and the Chicago School of Economics led by Milton Friedman for our current state of affairs. This gang of freaking Jews destroyed this country by arguing for monopoly power and mocking anyone who disagreed as not understanding math and science. The books Goliath by Matt Stoller and Tailspin by Steven Brill do a great job detailing how this country is destroyed by Economics and Law professors in our premier universities, and the significant role Jews played in them.

    • Replies: @Dr.C. Fhandrich
  69. TKK says:

    The Sacred and Benevolent Chinese: Mr. Roberts, any comments or concerns?

  70. Drew says:
    @Andrei

    Say, didn’t Hoover spy on the top capitalists of his day? How’d that work out?

  71. @Tor597

    “What the west fears the most is living standards of the poorest people in China improving along with their rights increasing because this makes the west look bad since they are moving in the opposite direction.”

    Exactly. And this is a critically important point for anyone trying to understand the “foreign policy” of the corrupt U.S. “government” in general. In fact it represents a fundamental spiritual axiom: “Evil hates a good example.”

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  72. Mark G. says:
    @Amerimutt Golems

    Mao was a total disaster for China. The man who arrested the situation is Deng Xiaoping

    .

    If the Gang of Four had won the power struggle after the death of Mao instead of Deng, China would probably be in worse shape now. They were fortunate that a pragmatist like Deng ended up on top instead of some Communist ideologue.

  73. Unquenchable greed, ” Cultural Marxism” (no values)running Western Schools, an essentially unworkable Congress and Senate,( unworkable in terms of representing American citizens best interests in favor of serving elites best interests), have all contributed to poverty in the U.S. The upshot is that global businesses and U.S. tech elite, literally are those who control the U.S. for their own ends and those ends in no way favor the citizens nor the country as a whole. When a foreign nation, China, can already dictate to the U.S. because it manufactures so many critical things, drugs, military hardware, movies Americans see, etc. then its clear that the Constitution and U.S. citizens have been betrayed by a corrupt elite. This was the purpose of electing a businessman that millions of grass roots voters had decided was necessary, instead of another lawyer or politician from the swamp and we clearly know now that their is a swamp. etc. Millions of words have been written about all of this, the necessity of electing Trump, who has by almost super human willpower tried his best to take the nation back to its true values, in spite of a dumbed down public that cannot perceive what is happening to them coming from the toxic far left democratic party, an entity totally in the service of destroying the nation as it has been for over two hundred years. Obama stated this goal from the moment he was elected. WE HAVE NO EXCUSE IN PRETENDING OTHEWISE.

  74. @TKK

    The collective left, that is, American movie makers, Marxist beard scratchers teaching in U.S. universities, news papers, magazines, etc. have all painted a false picture of China and even the U.S. for years now. I once asked a Chinese businessman, a rather decent and lighthearted guy, if it was true that the Chinese have great respect for the elderly as propagated in American media for years and years. He surprised me totally by saying that this has not been the case for years and years. The elderly in China have no great respect from the younger Chinese. There is no Kung Fu type values as shown on American television and movies he said to me. There is however, a lot of greed among the youth and middle aged Chinese, totally mimicking the worst of Americans.

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  75. News From United Shitehole of America

    Assange who faces 175 years in prison if extradited to United Shithole of America is being forcefully subjected to radiation poisoning every day by being X-Rayed everyday, and transported in something similar to a vertical coffin. They are clearly murdering Assange in slow motion!

    The psychopaths that are doing this are sick and sadistic monsters! What is their goal? To make Hitler, Goebels, and Mengela look like kittens?!

    Sputnik:
    “Morris, who is the mother of Assange’s two children, who were conceived while the WikiLeaks founder was living in the Ecuadorian embassy in London, said that every day her partner has been “woken at 5 am, handcuffed, put in holding cells, stripped naked and x-rayed.”
    “He’s transported 1.5 h each way in what feels like a vertical coffin in a claustrophobic van. He’s in a glass box at the back of court, from where he can’t consult his lawyers properly, ” the lawyer wrote on Twitter, as she advertised a crowdjustice campaign “to  free Julian Assange and stop US extradition”.

    https://sputniknews.com/world/202009171080489844-assanges-partner-says-he-is-being-stripped-naked–x-rayed-transported-in-vertical-coffin-daily/

    Andrea Iravani

  76. @mark tapley

    “Who do the thugs ruling China answer too?”

    You might be taken a little more seriously if you could bring your grammatical skills up to at least the third grade level.

    “If the thugs holding power in China really want to benefit society rather just aggrandize more power at the top then they should all step down and allow the people to set up a real republic with all the different regions having real representation. Property rights and contracts have to be enforced and the government’s power to invade the lives of the people in warrantless intrusions and spying must cease.”

    LOL! I love it when a benighted subject of the satanic, messianic, hellbound, judeo-communist dictatorship known as “America” undertakes to criticize some foreign government for something, e.g. infringement of “property rights.”

    Yo shit for brains, when was the last time an “American” could actually own a home for example? When was the last time an “American” was not subject to arbitrary government “intrusions”? FYI America is the realization of Karl Marx’ satanic wet dreams.

  77. @anon

    Basically true. National Socialist Germany”s every day economy, seemed totally capitalistic. There were many things business people had freedom with. It totally resembled capitalism in the U.S. But when the state did insist on some policy for business, that policy was expected to be put into practice. It often wasn’t however. One example was when Hitler insisted on having a people’s car built at a price that was utterly impossible, that no company could match. So even though the Volkswagen or “peoples car”, started to be manufactured, Germany’s other major car makers constantly foiled Hitlers plans and an actual VW was never produced for public consumption until Germany was defeated in war.

  78. We say hello

    Why do you keep LARPing as American?

  79. Durruti says:

    Nice thought provoking article by Roberts, along with many intelligent comments.

    This was an enjoyable & educational read.

    The question hotly searched, and is the most profound question for humankind in 2020 is…

    1. Can the people rule themselves, or do they need Super, Magically Endowed, Oligarchs with superior intelligence passed down from THE PARTY, to tell them what to do, where to live, and how to have sex?

    Let me ask the same question once more:

    1. Do humans stand on their own 2 feet, or do they assume the status of Animals, by walking on all fours, wearing masks, walking in approved directions, closing their Red Doors-acknowledging their abandoning of FAITH in their God, and spreading their asses – on command?

    This article by Godfree (an apt first name), Roberts is a worthy read. It resembles many favorable articles and books that chronicled the Stalinist Bureaucracy‘s (Trotsky’s term) apparently wonderful 5 Year Economic Development/Industrialization Plans.

    Here come the numbers again:

    1. The 5 Year plans in the Soviet Union, as well as the Industrialization and farming initiatives in China, have been a significant SUCCESS.

    2. To the Brainwashed, — Stalin’s Centralized Totalitarian Bureaucrats, and Mao’s Bureaucrats have not killed 60 million, or anywhere near that number of their People. I have detailed, more than once the impossibility of these numbers (on UNZ REVIEW) & will not do it again in a COMMENT. I note that the charge recently posted accuses the Mao Communists of killing the exact same number of people as the Stalinists are accused of killing. [They lack originality in their rantings. They might at least vary the numbers a tad.]

    Comment # 15, Referring to Mao, and I quote

    The fact that approximately 60 million people died of starvation was of no consequence to the elites.

    The commenter might have entered the 6 million HOLOHOAX accusation against the Germans while he was at it. These numbers are phoney. None of them add up! The propagandists like to use numbers beginning with 6, and then add zeros.

    Conclusion:

    I prefer the separation of powers of a REPUBLIC, to any Totalitarian concoction. I thank Ron Unz for at least allowing me to voice my belief in LIBERTY over dictatorship – HERE.

    Republics are all different. Each has varying levels of democracy. But all exist on the worship of individual self-worth, freedom, and love. A Republic exists in the fraternal embrace of Democracy. The two go together -in love- as husband and wife.

    Dictators live atop a narrow power pyramid. They are not amenable to correction. They usually benefit from the healthful input of Revolutionary upsurges, but eventually decline, as a brain with no free intellectual stimulation – will. Napoleon, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Batista, Trujillo, the Rothschild Oligarchs, and so many, more serve as examples.

    The fact that their servants are just as criminal, and often far uglier, are more visible, Casino Trump, Ukraine Biden, Killery, Bill in a blue dress Clinton, Obomber, Netenyahoo, Epstein, Maxwell, Macron, Ehud Barak, Weinstein, – I’m getting fatigued, You continue this list………….

    We Americans have as our Historical and Moral Duty, to Restore Our Sacred Republic, that was destroyed, by means of Assassination, on November 22, 1963.

    God Bless!

    Durruti and his friend, Dr. Peter J. Antonsen

    • LOL: HeebHunter
  80. @Godfree Roberts

    “Who do the thugs ruling China answer too?“

    They answer to Congress

    I disagree with you on this.

    The leaders should answer to the Congress maybe on paper, but not in reality. It is a new concept imported from the West, has not fully absorbed by the Chinese society and people yet. The supreme leader like Xi doesn’t really need to answer to anyone, just like the emperors in old time, but he can not do whatever he want, no matter good or bad. All the leaders want to do good to the society and people, but they may not have the ability or power. Mao could dictate whole China is not because Chinese political system gave him this power but because he won the power with his accomplishments. His past track records proved that he was almost always right, he was the savior of China, he won the trust, respect and love of officials, intellectuals and Chinese people. This is where his power came from. The same is for Deng. Deng”s accomplishments were not as great as Mao, people not trust or love him as Mao, so he had less ability to dictate than Mao. Jiang and Hu didn’t have much accomplishment and their personal abilities are limited, so they are weak leaders. Xi’s anti-corruption is very successful, a real accomplishment. I think this gives him more power then Jiang ant Hu. Targeted poverty alleviation is another accomplishment for him.

    The lower level officials have to answer to the officials above them and the public opinions. In pass several months, many Chinese officials lost their jobs because their inability to handle the pandemic, this hasn’t happened in the U.S. yet.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @Ron Unz
  81. Because there’s no real election in China and the government has enormous power, this results the government and its officials have to pay more attention and respond to ordinary people’s need and public opinions, especially in this internet time. While in America, there’s election every two to four years, but nothing changes.

  82. @mark tapley

    Who counted the starved and dead of malnutririon, malsanitation and lack of basic medical services for the poor in democratic India,. or 19th centrury capitalist Germany? Where there any less girl infants left to die via malnutrition, aborted or prevented in India? India and China started out from about the same level, now look who has surged ahead, it’s the well-organized state bureaucratic one.

    ” The best indicator of the true prosperity of a society is how well property rights and contracts are enforced. ”

    I would say that better inidcators are the HDI and trust.

    Unfettered accumulations of heritable property for generations is a source of societal problems as much as total lack of property rights is. Unlimited private ownership of land tends to lead to speculation bubbles and to rent incomes for an indolent upper class.

    • Replies: @mark tapley
  83. Durruti says:

    Assange who faces 175 years in prison if extradited to United Shithole of America is being forcefully subjected to radiation poisoning every day by being X-Rayed everyday, and transported in something similar to a vertical coffin. They are clearly murdering Assange in slow motion!

    Although America is not a “Shithole.” It is my home & my country, I thank you for this update. I have passed it on to our mailing & local friends.

    Do I understand correctly, that Assange is being treated this way in a British jail?

    Assange should be freed & and all charges dropped.

  84. Z-man says:

    I take those graphs with a large grain of salt especially that ‘Inequality’ graph, watzupwitdat!?!
    Trump 2020-24 and b-e-y-o-n-d. (Wry grin)

  85. vot tak says:

    The chart showing home ownership really shows how medieval and backward the usa is in comparison with China. Most people in the usa with lower incomes have to spend a high percentage of what they earn to pay rent. Those in the lowest income bracket have to buddy up with others just to be able to afford the rent payments. I’ve read that the percentage of home ownership in the usa is in decline. In other words as Chinese get better lives, americans remain stagnant or see their lives become harder. The usa is headed back to 19th century while China remains in the 21st century.

    Excellent, informative article by Roberts.

    • Agree: Harold Smith
  86. 100 years ago, China was a country very much like middle-age Europe, Chinese people and elites were very much like middle-age Europeans. Many people who criticize or hate China and Chinese government either don’t know or forget this fact, many people who pro China are often unwilling to admit it (because it doesn’t fit the great Chinese culture narrative and hurt Chinese people’s pride ) .

    I think The New Culture Movement in the 1910s and 1920s in China can be considered as the Enlightenment among Chinese elites, and Mao’s 27 year ruling between 1949 and 1976 (including the Culture Revolution) is the Enlightenment to ordinary Chinese. Mao modernized Chinese thinking and values system. China still has long way to go but on the right track.

    Last night, in my college alumni WeChat group, one person who extremely anti Chinese government and Chinese political system ask people to list one good thing that Chinese communists did in past 71 years of their ruling. People in the group listed following major accomplishments:

    Mao era: United the whole country, abolished serfdom in south-west China (including Tibet), land reform (this is the most important foundation for the economic take off in past 40 years), established relatively equal society and installed senses of equality in people, liberated women and established equal rights for women, mass education, public health accomplishments (at the end of Mao era, in 27 years, Chinese life expectancy improved from about 35 to 68, was about same as South Korea and close to developed countries, 14 years longer than India) , and not to mention the advancement in science, agriculture and Manufacturing industry. ….

    Deng, Jiang and Hu era: economic reform and development, building the market economy and correcting many mistakes made in Mao era.

    Xi era: correcting the mistakes made in Deng, Jiang and Hu era, including anti corruption, building the rule of law (started with rule by law) , installing the sense of law to people and officials, harnessing
    the oligarchs, the capitals, local police and government officials, pouring resources to combating the poverty.

    Basically, each generation of leaders did what they supposed to do and did reasonably good job.

    People often criticize Mao era for many bad things happened in those time. It is because they used today values to measure Chinese society in those times, just like today SJWs use today values measure the US in 100+ years ago. Chinese society evolved extremely fast in past 70 years, especially past 40 years. My young relatives in China once told me that it is used to be 10 years generation, than 5 years, now it’s three years. China in last 70 years transforms the largest country in the world that the West used about 500 years.

    • Thanks: Wizard of Oz
  87. The bit that really stood out for me was how much involvement Foxconn and HP gave to the rural project.

    It’s encouraging that companies like these can be leveraged into investing in tangible public works projects… rather than, say, investing in unproductive PR “support” for BLM or LGBTQ+ type causes, or partisan political campaigns, while offshoring profits to tax havens…

    • Replies: @xcd
  88. @TKK

    What is it about articles on China that always attract stupid retards like you?

    • Agree: Biff
  89. @Wizard of Oz

    I should be wary of taking on trust assertions of fact that for one reason or another I cannot reliably research for myself.

    Such as?

    It is hardly the quintessence of human wisdom to recognise that setting a good example and indoctrinating youth in the virtues is highly desirable if you want a peaceful law abiding population.

    But it IS the quintessence of human wisdom to do it, as the Chinese have been doing for 2000 years.

    Most Chinese régimes/dynasties have not achieved anything close to the Confucian ideal for any considerable length of time

    Most Chinese regimes have lasted longer than the United States regime.

    Your figure of 99% application of the rule of virtue is at odds with human nature, at least if you are suggesting a correspondingly huge effect from virtuous example.

    Really? Why are there are more hungry children, drug addicts, suicides and executions, more homeless, poor, and imprisoned people in America than in China?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  90. @vot tak

    I think that is a non issue if the wages are rising.

    Since 1980, wages when adjusted for inflation, has been stagnant for the last 40 years.

    That is the most important stat that Ron brought up.

    Essentially all the gains by the American economy has gone to the top 0.1%.

    • Replies: @vot tak
  91. @Dr.C. Fhandrich

    it was true that the Chinese have great respect for the elderly as propagated in American media for years and years.

    It was truth until about 40 years ago. Nowadays, the more developed area, the less elders were respected, but is still treated better than the US.

    • Replies: @Dr.C. Fhandrich
  92. @TKK

    I’m a shelter worker, so I see things like your link describes nearly every day. Trust me, there’s no shortage of dog torturers in the good ol’ US of A.

  93. anonymous[252] • Disclaimer says:
    @Oppression 4 U

    We have Jesus Christ and they don’t.

    The Chinese have the Buddha.

    The Hindoos have Vishnu, or Shiva or… pick any one.

    The whiteys have their own “mangod” Jesus Christ.

    Point is, conceptually this pagan deification of human figures exists in many other cultures. In that manner, your kind and the Chinese hardly differ at the spiritual level.

    You are all a part of the Brotherhood of Pagans.

  94. @Anonymous

    Mao’s accomplishments, and the esteem of 98% of his countrymen make nonsense of Jung Chang’s allegations.

    When he stepped down in 1974 he had reunited, reimagined, reformed, and revitalized the largest, oldest civilization on earth, modernized it after a century of failed modernizations, and ended millennia of famine. Despite the West’s crushing, twenty-five-year embargo on food, finance, technology, and medical and agricultural equipment, and its exclusion of China from the family of nations, he had banished invaders, bandits, and warlords; eliminated serious crime and drug addiction; doubled the population, its life expectancy and literacy; liberated its women and educated its girls; erased its disparities of wealth and land; built its infrastructure; grown the economy twice as fast as the West’s; led four revolutions and succeeded in three; produced jet aircraft, locomotives, oceangoing ships, ICBMs, hydrogen bombs, and satellites, and left the country debt-free.

    According to data provided by the World Bank, expressed at constant prices (base 1980) and in ten-year averages, China’s economic growth rate was 6.8 percent between 1970 and 1979, i.e., more than double that of the United States during the same period (3.2 percent, also at 1980 constant prices).4

    Furthermore, according to the official GDP series published by China’s National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) since its creation in 1952 up until today, the growth rate of China’s GDP averaged 8.3 percent annually from 1952 to 2015, with a strong 6.3 percent between 1952 and 1978 and an even stronger 9.9 percent between 1979 and 2015. These percentages are expressed at constant prices in base 1952 and standardized to take into account the statistical breaks that marked the accounting transition from the Material Product System (MPS) to the more “modern” System of National Accounts (SNA).5 Nevertheless, if we exclude the very first years of the People’s Republic from 1952 to 1962—i.e., between the completion of the unification of the continental territory and the period of the break with the Soviet Union—there is a recorded average of 8.2 percent per annum GDP growth rate in the period of 1963–78, reflecting very rapid growth even during the Cultural Revolution.the average growth rates of the capital stock that we called “productive” (including equipment, machinery, tools, industrial buildings, and facilities, but not residential buildings and their land value) showed very little difference over the two subperiods of 1952–78 and 1979–2015: 9.7 percent for the first subperiod and 10.9 percent for the second. If we retain a larger productive capital stock, including the inventories, which are important for calculating the rotation rate of circulating capital, we see that the average rhythm of accumulation of such a stock was slightly higher between 1952 and 1978 (10.41 percent) than between 1979 and 2015 (10.39 percent). Moreover, if we select an even larger capital stock to also include the constructed residential buildings and their land, not directly productive components, the growth rate of this very large capital stock continued to be high, averaging 9.1 percent from 1952 to 1978 compared to 10.9 percent from 1979 to 2015. It is, therefore, quite clear that the capital accumulation effort is not a recent phenomenon, but that it has been continuously decided and planned by the Chinese authorities over the past six decades.

    It is this sustained effort of accumulation, enabled in particular by surplus transfers from rural areas, that explains the success of industrialization and, to a large extent, the robust rate of GDP growth.[Development Indicators (Washington, DC: World Bank, various years)databank.worldbank.org. –The Enigma of China’s Growth. Zhiming Long and Rémy Herrera. Monthly Review, Dec 1, 2018; China Statistical Yearbook (Beijing: National Bureau of Statistics of China, various years), http://stats.gov.cn/english.%5D
    https://monthlyreview.org/2018/12/01/the-enigma-of-chinas-growth/

    BTW, Jung Chang comes from the higher levels of China’s failed social stratum: she is the grand-daughter of a warlord. Like most members of fallen elites anywhere in the world, she has an extremely bitter view of those who replaced her kind. Entirely blind to the fact that they failed when they had a chance to remould China.

    What’s odd is that the West takes characters like Jung Chang so seriously. The establishment seem to think that people with a legacy of decades of failure and weakness will now deliver them a repentant China ready to be remoulded to Western values. This is about as likely as an egg being laid in Tchaikovsky’s Swan Lake.

    Chang naturally assumes that students of peasant background are ‘semi-literate’ and had ‘little aptitude’, while she was clever and deserved the best, including a generous Chinese government scholarship to study in Britain. Chang claims that she was the victim of a brutal regime but, In fact, as well as being a Red Guard, Jung Chang was the privileged daughter of China’s Communist elite. It is a peculiarity of the reception of Wild Swans that it was told and read as a story of great personal suffering, when its author grew up with a wet-nurse, nanny, maid, gardener and chauffeur provided by the party, protected in a walled compound, educated in a special school for officials’ children.

    As a Grade 10 official, her father was among the 20,000 most senior people in a country of 1.25 billion, and it was in this period that children of ‘high officials’ became almost a class of their own. Still, the enthusiastic Western audience of Wild Swans found something to identify in Jung Chang’s perennial fear of being reduced to the level of the rest of the population, shuddering with her at the prospect that ‘Mao intended me to live the rest of my life as a peasant’ (Heartfield 2005). It was during the supposedly most difficult times of her family that Chang managed to leave the countryside a few weeks after she was sent down, become a barefoot doctor, an electrician and then a university student, and finally receive a generous scholarship to study in the UK, the kind of career moves that were dreams for millions of young Chinese, all accomplished during the Cultural Revolution years before her father was officially rehabilitated.

    Like a White Russian, former Cuban plantation owner, or ex-Iranian Shah supporter, or Venezuelan capitalist, she is a deluded elitist and an incorrigible liar.

    • Agree: ChineseMom, Erebus
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  95. @TKK

    You bring out an excellent point. We are seeing a similar picture painting as was done for the Zionist manufactured Soviet Union. Once further military buildup is completed, look for China and Russia to be deployed as the external enemies Jewmerica must have in order to achieve the Hegelian dialectic global feudalist system.

  96. @Godfree Roberts

    What I’ve said is not in conflict with this survey. I was just saying that the People’s Congress in Chinese political system doesn’t have much power, it’s just a rubber stamp. The government officials don’t answer to the Congress.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @Awash
    , @Godfree Roberts
  97. Cowboy says:
    @mark tapley

    When hordes of collectivist rats come screeching out of their hell holes as your comments have accomplished in this instances you know you’ve touched the truth nerve. Nicely done.

    • Troll: d dan
    • Replies: @mark tapley
  98. @Occasional lurker

    The Communist imposed infanticide in China dwarfs all others and is still causing serious problems in China. The individuals stewardship and contractual guarantee to be able to pass property down to succeeding generations along with the free market actions of the individual are the mainspring of human progress. Speculative bubbles are the result of the banking cartel’s monopoly control of credit and interest rates. Land and real estate is capitol, it has a price just like anything else. If the free market is allowed to work without government interference none of the abuses you mention will occur. gov. power has always been used by the elite in order to get society to work for them.

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  99. @vot tak

    As I see it, the precipitous general decline of America and particularly with regard to the decline of home “ownership” – are good examples of evil destroying itself.

    In order to rise to the top, the satanists had to eviscerate the middle class (the socioeconomic class from which political resistance to their hopeless agenda of world conquest would arise), and one way they did this was to implement open-ended property taxation as per the first (and perhaps most important) tenet of Marx’ communist manifesto.

    So in a sense no one in America is actually allowed to own any real estate; it all belongs to local “government.”

    At both a philosophical/spiritual level and a practical level this was a great achievement for the satanists, and here’s why: America was ostensibly founded on the concept that “the people” are endowed with God-given natural rights, such as the right to exist. According to the Declaration of Independence:

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

    So if there is recognized in America a God-given right to “Life” (i.e to exist) then there must also be implied rights such as the right to defend that existence (e.g. from an aggressor) and the right to own (or at least have access to) the property necessary to exist, which would include land and shelter.

    So if land and shelter are necessary for human existence, but the people cannot own (or have access to) land and shelter unless they pay the state some arbitrarily high sum of money for it, then existence is no longer a God-given right but a prerogative of the state. Thus in “one fell swoop” the satanists have already trashed the whole foundation upon which America was founded as the state has basically usurped God. What good is the constitution and the other “rights” if we can’t even have shelter from the elements without being bankrupted by the state?

    After setting up the evil system, the satanists sit back and watch with a twinkle in their eye as human corruption and greed take over – as they knew it would – and we destroy ourselves.

    • Agree: HeebHunter
    • Replies: @vot tak
    , @Biff
  100. @Ron Unz

    Yes, all of the rural peasants own their home and some land in their home village. This is their safety nets. If they lost their jobs as migrant workers in the city, they always can go back home. This is the key reason that China can cope with this COVID-19 without causing social instability.

    • Thanks: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @xcd
  101. Anon[350] • Disclaimer says:
    @Andrei

    If the government has the right to steal from the rich, then they have the right to steal from the middle class and poor as well.

    Hey, if you you’re inclined to steal, you’re not picky. You’ll take from whoever’s around, like a black guy snatching peoples’ cell phones. You go for anyone looks like they can’t fight back, like women and the elderly, and you take every opportunity you can to steal because you’re greedy and you get a kick out of pushing other people around and terrorizing them.

    A government with that right will do it. People always have this blithe assumption that a government confiscating money from the rich will stop there. How naive. If anything, the ‘little people’ will become the targets because they can’t hire the high-powered lawyers to fight back against state tyranny and confiscation.

    This is why democracy is better than communism, and why it’s better not to give the government absolute power you. Giving anyone absolute power over yourself is crazy and leads to slavery.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  102. Art says:

    China has been growing rapidly for 30 years. Rapid growth covers up all the things that have been done wrong. When the growth stops, all of China’s economic and organizational sins will become known. There will be a “1930’s like depression” event.

    China has three major cultural faults.

    The Chinese are greedy – they love money. They will reform the clans and cartels of old. Government will be overtaken. Before the greedy Jew takeover of Western capitalism, the West favored sustained organization, over money going to the top. The goal of the Western mind was to create sustainable business organizations that maintained a continuous cash flow and a long term future.

    The Chinese culture venerates the past – the West venerates the future. Venerating the past stagnates and ages the culture. Whereas looking to the future always renews the culture making it forever new.

    The Chinese do not honor intellectual innovation as the West does. The Chinese just as soon steal innovation, as create it. The West has transitioned to an intellectual paradigm, as opposed to the Chinese tribal biological prototype.

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
    , @vot tak
  103. Anon[544] • Disclaimer says:
    @GMC

    Daughter slams New Jersey officials for putting her 89-year-old dementia-suffering mom’s home up for sale and nearly forcing her out over SIX CENTS in back taxes

    Glen Kristi Goldenthal’s home was put up for sale by Ocean Township officials
    She lived in the New Jersey home for 50 years and was one day from eviction
    Her daughter Lisa Suhay said that Goldenthal owed just six cents in back taxes
    Suhay took to social media to voice her anger that officials failed to help

    This came out today.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8742851/New-Jersey-Alzheimers-sufferer-89-nearly-loses-home-SIX-CENTS-taxes.html

  104. vot tak says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    It’s not a non issue, but a closely related one, in my opinion. A home of their own is a place where one can live at least secure with the security of not being forced to live as a vagrant. Equally important, it is a place where one decides themselves in what manner they want to live and not have to worry about the landlord booting them (landlord being renter or mortgage lender) for this, that or whatever.

    Having a secure place you can call home is worlds apart from renting a place from someone else who can turn your life upside down at a whim. And in the usa frequently, if not always, do.

    Been in both situations and having my own place to live as I want is miles above the alternative here in pindo “paradise”. Make that pindo exceptional paradise.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  105. @Amerimutt Golems

    Part of the problem here is that the Zionists you mention are determined to lower the standard of living in Jewmerica while raising it in China. This same group of saboteurs has done everything possible in the U.S. to create racial strife from the founding of the NAACP in 1907 by Zionist Jew and Int. banker Jacob Schiff to the so called civil rights movement with non stop race baiters including MLK, Jackson, Sharpton and Obama’s real father Frank Marshal Davis, minority set asides, a steady cultural attack on white society and now the ANTIFA-BLM straight out of the Frankfurt School for destruction of the western counties.

    China is not nearly as homogenous as it is portrayed. It takes lots of government resources to keep all the different groups in line. We know that all the animals on the farm are not as contented as the author leads us to believe. The Muslims in the North would revolt against their Chinese overlords at any opportunity. There are other groups with simmering resentment against the heavy handed oligarchy as demonstrated by the Tiananmen Square protest. The gov. since then has only tightened it’s grip.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @denk
  106. anon[191] • Disclaimer says:

    The rise of China in the past 40 years is truly amazing. China is far from perfect but is miles ahead of what it was in the 1970’s. Western style government doesn’t suit the Chinese because it doesn’t come out of their own experience, it’s a Northwest European style of politics that only suits only Northwest Europeans. The best style of governance for the Chinese is one that they create themselves from their own minds. No Jewish style of politics from Karl Marx works for them or an Anglo-Saxon style of government from the mind of Thomas Jefferson will truly work because it doesn’t mesh with their mentality. It is the mentality of the group, not the individual. Even in the United States, the Jeffersonian style of governance is not working too well any more with the throngs of Negroes, Jews Mestizos, Muslims and Asians that now inhabit it. Rather than everyone appreciating the freedom to be the best you can be, the underperformers are in an endless feeding frenzy to get whatever they can out of the system and the corrupt politicans are more than happy to give it to them. If Trump gets in a second term, it would be music to my ears to hear him admit that the United States as it is is a dumpster fire and this is because of multiculturalism. Jeffersonian Republicanism only works with an absolute majority of Northwest Europeans, not the ethnic compost heap we have in the US. This is going to end in civil war and partitioning along ethnic lines as it always does. If China keeps an overwhelming Han majority, they won’t suffer the same fate as the US, if they become a minority, they will suffer the same fate as the United States.

    • Agree: ChineseMom
  107. @mark tapley

    The poor killing their newborn or selling their children to the rich as servants were common practices before the Communist took the power. The Communist made all these things illegal and greatly improved people’s life, that’s why Chinese population exploded in 1950’s, grew from about 450 million to 600 millions in less than 10 years. This is the key reason in my opinion for the so called the “great famine” to happen during late 50s and early 60s. The famine was not caused by the great leap, it was caused by this population explosion before the green revolution. China had been in Malthusian trap for a couple of hundreds of years. This thirty percent increase of population in such short time without much increase of agriculture ability is the great success of Mao and the Communist, but also made the famine bound to happen. The Great Leap was just the last straw that broke the camel’s back.

    In early 80’s, China adopted “one child policy”. In many places, this policy was strictly enforced during late 80’s and 90’s, people facing severe punishment for giving birth to more than one (two in most rural countryside), this resulted that some poor rural peasants in some areas with tradition of infanticide in old China to kill their unwanted girls, but this was not that widespread. It’s illegal after all. Now China is much richer and more developed, the “one child policy” is also relaxed, infanticide isn’t a problem anymore.

  108. Wally says:
    @PJ London

    said:
    “The people of the west see societies through their lenses and cannot conceive of alternative viewpoints.
    Then complain that Africa, Arabia and Asia are barbaric.
    Whereas, other societies see the West as shallow, selfish and materialistic.”

    Nonsense.

    – It is the west where people worldwide are banging down the doors to get into.

    – Strawman alert.
    I really don’t think the west considers Asia (east Asia that is) to be “barbaric” in the true meaning of the term. Some do perceive China as a threat, but that is not the same as your misleading descriptor “barbaric”.
    While Africa certainly is barbaric, as is Arabia in many ways.

    • Replies: @PJ London
  109. @Art

    You are totally wrong.

    The past 70 years, especially past 40 years, China not only made great progress in economic development, but also changed culturally. The three cultures faults you said aren’t true anymore. Chinese now honor intellectual innovation probably more than most western countries if not more than Americans yet.

  110. @Cowboy

    Yeah just like on Orwells animal farm where the pigs were always dishing out more propaganda like the Jew controlled MSM whores in Jewmerica. It changes over time. Just a few I remember are the new ice age in the 60’s then there was the great overpopulation guru Paul Ehrlich, acid rain, mercury in the fish, the Great Lakes are dying, we’re running out of oil, air and water pollution is ruining the world and the great push to convince everyone to believe the utter nonsense of global warming. Not just to syphon more tax money into the pockets of the elite like Armand Hammer’s shill Al Gore and co. but to move us down the road to their U.N. planned Sustainable Development Initiative, Agenda 2030-21. Now Greta and global warming have been put on the back burner after predicting imminent catastrophe for over 30 years (every ten years is the end of humanity) for a much more effective scam.

    Some of us have known for a long time that everything Jewmerica does is a lie and a fraud but even I was surprised at the success of the latest roll out of the long planned fake virus. The same Zionists syndicate that fabricated 911 and WMD’s has hit a home run with this transparently absurd medical fraud of the fake virus, fake test and fake numbers. It was a great cover for the latest theft of more trillions by the banking cartel.

    • Replies: @Cowboy
  111. @anon

    No “refugees” without WAR..

    You should hate war as much as you claim to hate “refugees”

    • Agree: Awash
  112. @Godfree Roberts

    I don’t see “the results”

    • Replies: @vot tak
  113. @vot tak

    It is a non issue if the rent is just 10% of the wages instead of 50%.

    See where I am going with this?

    The problem you brought up is only a problem because of 40 years stagnant wages.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @Anonymous
  114. @Amerimutt Golems

    For Mao’s real record, see my reply, #94

  115. @Gottfried Robber doesn't know anything about China

    I would click Thanks but for the tone! I am pleased to have some edge added to my otherwise uninformed general scepticism on things like home ownership by someone who shares my understanding of the US as a plutocracy.

  116. Anonymous[557] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s amusing to read your psycho-babble. You sound like a cliched vaudeville villain in a Bond film. Why is that po-faced Maoist types always descend into this hilarious stilted vile alien Maoist kitsch?

    Your entire nauseatingly dumb screed about Ms Chang is one big turd of a non-sequitur. All that matters is the truth of Chang’s assertions – and they are all meticulously documented and verifiable.

    Yes, let’s talk about Mao’s economy.

    From June 1941, the fat little demon Mao was an opium-lord, working with a Nationalist general in the north, Teng Pao-Shan. In a single year, Mao was able to inflict enough Opium on the Chinese people to accumulate 250 million fabi in savings. In 1943 the Soviets estimated Mao’s Opium sales at 44,760 kg, worth 2.4billion fabi.

    After assaulting the local peasants with opium causing vast amounts of suffering and death, Mao the squat little OSS dwarf, then proceeded to force the local peasants to ‘voluntarily donate’ firewood, vegetables, pigs, sheep and gold to the communists in Yenan province. Mao banned guns, so wolves could enter the villages and kill entire families, and all their livestock. Then, when the animals were brought inside the village houses, naturally there was a proliferation of disease from the resulting filth. More people died, of Typhus, and of various animal viruses.

    And the entire time, Mao the drug-lord gangster was working with a nationalist general to spread opium into the provinces.

    [MORE]

    In 1944 Mao also caused massive inflation by ignoring his advisers on the scale of printing of the Communist bianbi. In 1944 the price of salt was 2,131 times the price in 1937. Matches were 25,000 times the price. Mao then diversified from his Opium peddling, into becoming a loan shark. The Communists were charging local peasants interest rates of 30-50% monthly, according to Chief Secretary Xie. Mao’s economic predations were so bad that in 1954, even a Hungarian peasant commented that Yenan was an indescribably poor, squalid hellhole.

    Ironically, Mao was saved by the stupidity of the general George Marshall, who listed to Chou En-Lai make hilarious statements like ‘China prefers America to Russia’ and ‘Mao is interested in democracy’.

    There isn’t a single economic epoch of Mao that wasn’t marked by corruption, lunacy and contempt for China. But Mao the squalid Opium-lord and Mao the loan-shark from the very beginning is indicative of his general economic character.

    But let’s move on to the 50’s, and Mao’s ‘national requisitioning’ – which he based overtly on the Japanese confiscation of food in Manchukuo. Mao’s liason Chen Yun informed Mao his policy would lead to death and revolt in 100,000 villages in China – one seventh of the total. He proceeded anyway.

    Mao was also a quantitative retard. The agriculture component of his ‘Superpower plan’ in 1956 demanded the peasants produce 500billion tonnes of grain by 1962, 3x the largest harvest ever recorded in China in 1936, without any additional capital investment in things like ‘fertilizer’. What Mao did was ‘back-calculate’ the amount of grain he needed to steal to fund his fantasies of being Goldfinger, with zero regard for physics or reality.

    It was so appallingly daft, that Chou En-Lai and Liu had to step in and risk their lives and oppose Mao to stop him basically killing all of China’s population. Chou cut spending on industrial projects in China by a quarter in 1956.

    Then lets look at the ‘Hundred Flowers’ killings, from 1957-58. Mao had rat cunning, no question. He pretended to mirror Kruschevs criticisms of Stalin and Communist terror saying ‘let a hundred flowers bloom’. But it was a trap, to identify and destroy anyone with a brain in the Chinese communist party, as relayed by Shanghai crime-lord Ke Qing-shi. He let the hundred flowers criticise the party for it’s secrecy, abolishment of rule-of-law, foreign policy, feudal privileges etc. He made sure none were ever expressed in general media to the general population, and only in seminars and wall posters he ensured were destroyed quickly.

    Then, having flushed out anyone who wouldn’t kowtow to him, he began his ‘Anti-Rightist’ campaign, labelling 550,000 people as ‘Rightists’ randomly, by setting a quota of 1-10% of all intellectuals. He went as far as to shut down education in the cities because educated people realised what a fraudulent evil Toad Mao was. Everyone accused was subjected to hellish psychological torture in days long denunciations, then exiled to Manchurian Gulags.

    Then, 64-67 he began his ‘Great Leap’ where he openly said ‘Half of China may well have to die‘. That’s when we got the fun of Mao demanding multiples of already fake grain quotas to buy useless nuclear submarines the Soviets had no intention of every selling him. Reports in 1959 indicated there was severe starvation in over half the country. At the same time, Mao exported 4.74million tonnes of grain worth $1billion USD.

    Mao prided himself on his ‘three simultaneouslys’ where projects had to be designed, and executed, simultaneously. So he built a 1400 km long canal across the Yellow Earth plateau in the Northwest, across 800 mountains and valleys. 170,000 labourers lived in caves on herbs to build the project. Over 3 years, 2000 died, and the canal was abandoned. Of 500 reservoirs Mao built, almost all of them had to be abandoned. He was responsible for the Henan dam failure, which killed an estimated 230k-240k Chinese people. Etc.

    This was the period where Mao declared war on Sparrows, because they eat grain. He forced Chinese to make a racket to stop pigeons landing. Pigeon numbers fell, pest numbers rose, even more Chinese starved. This was also the period Mao demanded that China exceed US steel production – in 1959. 90million people had to make idiot pig-iron furnaces on their properties, which produced totally worthless scrap monstrosities, made out of every metal heirloom in the country.

    Then in 72-73 the great purge, again. Mao used the Red Guards, including high-school students from schools like ‘The Red Violent School’ who beat their teachers to death. This was the period when Mao’s ‘Small Group’ destroyed Confucius’ shrine in Shandong.

    Mao and Mme Mao (the disgusting depraved ugly sow, Jang Qing) turned China into a cultural desert from 1966-1975. Maybe Jun was disgusted by Mm Mao who entertained herself by engaging in every frivolous attitude she denied her countrymen, like playing cards, watching theatre, having pets (a pet monkey no less), having swimming pools, channeling herself mineral water from Canton nearly 100km away, having special purpose roads built for her to cretinously ‘view the mountains’. That pair of cultural illiterates basically destroyed every Chinese artifact that wasn’t in Taiwan, or Hong Kong, or in the West. In Guangxi in 1968 100,000 people in the middle-class who opposed Mao were killed. Mao sponsored and recommended cannibalism. Yunnan persecuted 1.4 million people. Inner Mongolia persecuted approximately 500,000.

    It goes on, and on, and on – all meticulously documented.

    But those reports aren’t real because Jung was persecuted by these pigs, says Godfree the pig-flunky.

    Any economic number from before Mao’s death, and most after it, basically aren’t real. China wouldn’t have any clue what GDP was during Mao’s time. Absolutely zero clue. Because economic numbers were made up.

    Godfree is a great example of Mao’s ‘Three simultaneouslys’. He is simultaneously a 1) bore 2) liar 3) sycophant.

    If the Nationalists had simply executed Mao, China probably would have actually achieved super-power status much faster, with far less bloodshed, and be beloved instead of increasingly reviled around the world.

    Of course, Jew run United States is in many ways worse then Xi’s China, so spare the whatabboutism.

    But Mao was truly an evil vile creature.

    Chang naturally assumes that students of peasant background are ‘semi-literate’ and had ‘little aptitude’, while she was clever and deserved the best, including a generous Chinese government scholarship to study in Britain

    You absolute Uriah Heap. Guess what, Donkey, peasants ARE almost universally semi-literate, with little aptitude – the world over. Not just in China – because being a peasant means you don’t get to read War and Peace. Ms Chang is demonstrably intelligent, certainly more intelligent then you.

    So Jung Chang experienced what so many Russians experienced when a pack of goons steal all of their property and livelihoods.

    Like a White Russian, former Cuban plantation owner, or ex-Iranian Shah supporter, or Venezuelan capitalist, she is a deluded elitist and an incorrigible liar

    Haha. Yes, Venezuela is now a model of success and all of it’s exiles are just embittered failures, unlike it’s shining light of a current leadership coterie. So was the Soviet Union. Cuba, Iran. What a revealing statement.

    As a Grade 10 official, her father was among the 20,000 most senior people in a country of 1.25 billion, and it was in this period that children of ‘high officials’ became almost a class of their own

    That’s why you miscreants screech and seethe so much. Because she was part of the inner-party, and had full visibility on the sheer macro-evilness of the entire squalid communist regime in China under Mao. That actually promotes her case, as opposed to negating it, you dolt. Maybe you’ve acquired a reduction in your already severely deficient IQ since you embraced Maoism.

    It was during the supposedly most difficult times of her family that Chang managed to leave the countryside a few weeks after she was sent down, become a barefoot doctor, an electrician and then a university student, and finally receive a generous scholarship to study in the UK

    Yes, so having been sent to squat in fields arbitrarily under conditions of persecution, she was able to use her own cunning and her families’ powerful position in the inner-party to obtain a position whereby she was able to defect.

    Again, this also is testament to her capabilities. You are making the case against yourself, you stain of a Monkey.

    No, I think Ms Chang isn’t a liar. I think you are a liar. This particular concourse has been most revealing. You really are an odious little beetle. There isn’t going to be a repeat of the China experience in the West. You truly are disgusting. I hope, as events proceed, that in the course of my young life I get to piss on the graves of the crawling men of your ilk. You are vermin. You would have been foremost in the Red Guard groups, that’s absolutely clear. What a shame in the US everybody is armed, so that people like you can be dispatched instead of enabled to act on your puerile fantasies of subjugation and persecution.

    Yes, Ms Chang was the victim of a brutal regime. Again, I wonder how many Chinese in the West have been permitted to cheat on SAT’s because College Board allowed Chinese agents to manage their SAT papers and processes.

    For My eyes are on all their ways. They are not hidden from My face, and their guilt is not concealed from My eyes.

    For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be brought to light.

    A century of war.

    • Replies: @vot tak
  117. vot tak says:
    @Art

    You guys are losing, shlomo. All your trolling will not reverse that. Maybe your owners will let you into their bomb shelters when they think they can win?

    LOL, Dream on…

    • Troll: GeneralRipper
  118. @TKK

    You also would want to retract your rosy outlook on their healthcare.

    Really? Why? Here’s what they get for 10% of our per capita spending:

    • Troll: GeneralRipper
  119. vot tak says:
    @Sya Beerens

    Guardianistas only see what israel tasks them to see.

    • Troll: GeneralRipper
    • Replies: @vot tak
  120. @Anon

    The observation of the ancient Greeks, ‘revolution, democracy, oligarchy, tyranny, and back to revolution and repeat, will operate in China just as it did in Russia, Soviet Union.

    Those are Roman cultures. China is Confucian, and will resume prioritizing socialism next year.

    Xi wants China’s 43.8 Gini index* to match Finland’s 27.2 by 2035.


    * A Gini index of 0 represents perfect equality, while an index of 100 implies perfect inequality. In 2020 China’s was 38.2 and America’s was 41.5.

    • Troll: GeneralRipper
    • Replies: @Anon
  121. PJ London says:
    @Wally

    The fact that some starving people or some disaffected people are “banging down the doors” does not negate what I said.

    One child policy and forced sterilisation?
    Binding young girls feet for beauty?
    Selling daughters as prostitutes for cash?
    Caning people for graffiti?
    Executing criminals in public and charging the family for the expense of the bullet?
    Many aspects of the Chinese culture were-are considered ‘barbaric’.

    Only in the western eye is Arabia barbaric, to an Arab it is moral and perfectly logical.
    Similarly in Africa to traditional africans nothing they do is barbaric.
    The western obsession with right to life is ridiculous to a hierarchical tribal society.
    It is only 200 years ago that the west stopped burning witches.

  122. Ron Unz says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    It is a non issue if the rent is just 10% of the wages instead of 50%.

    Yep. As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, the real wages of ordinary Chinese workers have been doubling every decade since the late 1970s.

    It seems to me if the real wages of ordinary American workers were doubling every decade, there wouldn’t be as many angry complaints about our ruling elites or the One Percent…

    • Agree: vot tak
  123. Cowboy says:
    @mark tapley

    Maybe the difference between all the previous canards offered and this latest is they found that the previous were more abstract and long term whereas this iteration is more immediate and add to that the prolifigacy of the propagandistic media which moved the herd to submission quickly it’s not surprising the sheeple bleated in unison.

    • Agree: mark tapley
  124. @PJ London

    One might take your world view as worth reading if you weren’t so colossaly ignorant about something as famous as the Long March. Mao didn’t have anything remotely like “hundreds of millions” follow him on the Long March. Go back to a simple introduction to 20th century Chinese history before putting your hand up again.

    • Replies: @PJ London
  125. @Supply and Demand

    […there was industry in China before Kissinger opened the door. Mao destroyed it.]
    .
    Of course, “there was industry in China before Kissinger opened the door”. Otherwise, China could not have built its own Atom Bomb. However, any serious industrialisation was done under Mao and then Deng expanded, and advanced, it.
    .
    The rest of your post is also irrelevant crap.

  126. @TKK

    I haven’t time for that video.Please provide summary.

  127. vot tak says:
    @Harold Smith

    Land taxes paid to government (state, not fed, btw) in the usa are but a minor outlay in comparison to the initial high cost of the place being bought and the exorbitant loan interest.

    But like the cost of the property itself, these taxes are way too high. In fact taxes really shouldn’t exist at all. Taxes are a capitalist way of fleecing the unconnected from the power structure to finance the power structure in order to reinforce capitalist dominance.

    None of this has anything to do with Marxism, other than being an oligarch misdirection counter to Marxism. And satan has about as much influence as god. IE: nil.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
    , @xcd
  128. @Anon

    “This is why democracy is better than communism, and why it’s better not to give the government absolute power you. Giving anyone absolute power over yourself is crazy and leads to slavery.”

    On the contrary, the U.S. is a real world example which proves that “democracy” and “communism” are not mutually exclusive. In fact the statement that “Democracy is the road to Socialism” is attributed to Karl Marx.

    If you “own” property in the U.S. you are a slave to the state and if you don’t or can’t pay the arbitrarily high extortion payments you will eventually be removed from the property (at gunpoint if necessary), and thus be made homeless and left to die by exposure to the elements.

    Field mice have more of a right to exist in communist America than “the people.”

  129. jadan says:

    One commenter notes that China’s development and concern for its poor is not exclusively from its humanitarian politics, but from necessity. From the Guardian, 2005:
    ” In driving off more than 1,000 riot police at the start of the week,
    Huankantou village in Zhejiang province is at the crest of a wave of
    anarchy that has seen millions of impoverished farmers block roads and
    launch protests against official corruption, environmental destruction
    and the growing gap between urban wealth and rural poverty.”
    The Party cannot hope to maintain power if it does not manage the causes of social distress. At the annual congress the topic of “mass incidents” was primary in the recent past and those incidents of civil unrest have been reduced dramatically in 15 years as a result of the policies Mr. Roberts describes. Suppression of restive Muslim populations Uyghurs, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, has gone forward also in a vast assault on the “pre-crime” of whole populations. The CCP has developed an infrastructure of re-education camps and it will tolerate no dissent. None. It does not like diversity. If you want to imagine yourself as a sovereign individual with unalienable rights given to you by your creator, disappear or get the fuck out! And take your Statue of Liberty with you!

    China is a repressive, totalitarian political system, anathema to the core political convictions of these United States. And yet we have much to learn from China and an apologist like Godfrey Roberts does us a service by rubbing our noses in our failed “free market” capitalism, by comparison, that is currently coming apart at the seams. We must learn to manage the causes of our own social distress. That means pushing forward in the evolutionary direction of this country towards greater democratic involvement of the American people. We need to eliminate vestiges of the founders’ anti-democratic politics such as the “Electoral College” and revamp the electoral apparatus so that the majority voice of the American people can be heard. We need to be able to trust electoral results. We need to create a social democracy. Our greatest enemy is internal in the far right ideologues with billions of dollars, the “conservatives” who are the enemies of democracy no matter how they shout “liberty” over the air waves. They want nothing more than to preserve the Oligarchy they currently control.

    If we can see ourselves in the mirror Godfrey Roberts provides, we may be able to see just how stupid we are and begin a political 12-step program to get back to health!

    • Replies: @Biff
    , @vot tak
  130. vot tak says:

    Actually scratch the Marxism reference and replace it with collectivist. This idea of one for all and all for one as opposed to one against all predates Marxism by tens of 1000s of years. The one agaisnt all critters were generally booted, back then. Unfortunately run off, not killed off. The backlash of this mistake we see now running the ziowest and their minions.

    • Replies: @xcd
  131. Biff says:
    @Harold Smith

    Worth repeating

    In order to rise to the top, the satanists had to eviscerate the middle class (the socioeconomic class from which political resistance to their hopeless agenda of world conquest would arise), and one way they did this was to implement open-ended property taxation as per the first (and perhaps most important) tenet of Marx’ communist manifesto.

    So in a sense no one in America is actually allowed to own any real estate; it all belongs to local “government.”

    Thnx for the rest – nailed it.

  132. vot tak says:
    @Anonymous

    Are you a bot or a virgin pindo adolescent?

  133. Like I said, State Department shills are working overtime now.
    Good luck on attacking a billion strong high tech, industrial continent sized nuclear country with an army of noodle arms kikes, niggers and trannies. You might still get some low IQ trailer trashes for 11B though, lol.

  134. @Godfree Roberts

    I note that you don’t really push the Chinese civilisatiin BS more than 2000 years back. Perhaps you have noticed the character of the first emperor and his rule 😉
    I hold no brief for the US government or the plutocracy
    it serves but I keep my BS tuned to praise of any group of people organised to wield power over others.

    By the way you seem to overlook the likelihood that, in amostly illiterate empire of peasants the respect for elders and their productive ways was a natural product of family necessity. I haven’t read Ron Unz,’s 1980s (I think) essay on what natural selection (with a bit of economic compulsion) did for the Chinese brain over many centuries and more, but I think it is probably relevant.

  135. Anonymous[632] • Disclaimer says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Such a chart means nothing. The Chinese were afraid to say otherwise. It would drive down their social credit score.

    Biggest bunch of charlatans ever.

    • Replies: @Anon99
    , @Godfree Roberts
  136. Biff says:
    @jadan

    You read like a CIA bot….

  137. @Godfree Roberts

    How dou reconcile your description of the privileges provided by the CCP to Jung Chang’s family with your praise for Mao and the CCP? I toy with the idea that Chang Kai Shek’s Nationalists were the Stuarts and Jacobites who lost out and the CCP and associated institutions is like Britain’s pre Reform parliamentary government though Xi does seem to be better at holding and wielding power to hiz taste than Queen Victoria and her uncles and grandfather.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  138. vot tak says:
    @jadan

    “From the Guardian”

    The guardian is israeli propaganda, guardianista.

    But thanks for showing that israel and your sacred zionazism is every bit as much a part of the zpc/nwo war on China.

  139. Erebus says:
    @ChineseMom

    Love most of your comments, but I have a couple of bones to pick with this one.

    1. “The Great Famine” was more like the “The Great Hunger”. The word famine has a meaning, and it doesn’t simply mean food shortages. The idea that statistically significant numbers of people actually died of starvation during the GLF is a construct that doesn’t map well onto reality. Much of what one reads stretches the meaning to include all or some of the numbers of “excess deaths” (from all causes) of the period, and some stretch it to include even the “dearth of births.” In short, almost all of the “studies” are politically motivated and result in political conclusions.

    2. The 1 child policy seems to have been very unevenly enforced. I know several (Han) people who’ve got more than 1 sibling, and one of them has 4. Of course, the ethnic groups were exempt from the 1 child policy so had as many as they could support.

    As for “killing girls”, what I’ve learned is that girls (esp. first-borns) were often simply not registered. Legally, they didn’t exist. That caused its own problems as it prevented them from registering in the local school, getting state health care and a variety of other services. A couple of decades ago, you’d find such girls working in factories far from their villages with no papers at all. Some had no real idea how old they were and could read and write on only the most fundamental level. There was a drive to bring these girls and women in from the cold a few years ago, but I have no idea how far it went or succeeded.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @ChineseMom
    , @xcd
  140. @ChineseMom

    You must think we are all as stupid as all the idiots going around with the face diapers on. “The poor killing their newborn or selling their children to the rich as servants were common practices before the Communist took the power.” Do you really think anyone believes this. I doubt this was a common practice in any society, even in the long history of an oriental rat hole like China.

    You sound just like the MSM that spouted propaganda back in the 30’s and 40’s about the workers paradise in Russia. They even duped about ten thousand “true believers” into immigrating to the frozen Soviet hell hole where they all were rounded up and either killed or thrown in the gulag. I have already mentioned in my other post about the ignorant, degenerate Jew advised Mao and his disastrous Great Leap Forward that caused the biggest catastrophe in Chinese history. The Chinese archives even reveal the death toll to be an incredible 60 million. This far out strips even the Zionist Jew Genrikh Yagoda and Stalin’s other henchmen with the massive starvation of the Ukraine added in. Mao’s record of mass murder as the typical tool of communism everywhere is also documented.
    What an improvement it was.

    The Malthusian theory has long been disproved but no matter in your communist fantasies you have to have something to grasp at. There was plenty of agriculturaly suitable land just as there was in Russia. Had that not been the case then population expansion would have been limited to start with. The disastrous centralized control destroyed food production just like it did in Russia. All of this is documented in “Mao’s Great Famine”.

    You go from one lie to the next. The “China adopted the one child policy” is quite a euphemism for the massive infanticide that resulted and is still causing maladjustment for the country. Nowhere but in a communist controlled rat hole would the mass murder of young children on this scale happen. You pass this off like it was just an inconvenience.

    The only reason the peoples life has gotten better is because the Zionist plan called for American industry and technology to begin flooding China. Before that happened China was an economic basket case.

    The thugs that control China care no more about their people than do the Zionists anywhere else. While they spin nationalist jargon for the masses and fables for the true believers like you and the propagandist that wrote this column their real loyalty is only to themselves and total global control. You will be happy to know however that China is ahead in one area. It is the model for the NWO. They thugs that run China were the first to spring the Covid fraud on their own people and they are also the first to implement the Social Credit Score Total Surveillance System. Maybe you can tell us all how that will “greatly improve peoples life.”

    • Troll: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  141. @vot tak

    “Land taxes paid to government (state, not fed, btw) in the usa are but a minor outlay in comparison to the initial high cost of the place being bought and the exorbitant loan interest.”

    I completely disagree.

    First, property taxes are levied against both the land and the house. Second, as of right now, mortgage interest rates are somewhere around 3% on a 30 year mortgage; hardly “exorbitant.” Third, yes, they are levied and collected under state law, but so what? EVERY state in the U.S. has property tax, just like every state has gun laws. In fact property taxation can be compared to gun control because the same communists that routinely use state law against the second amendment are also the main political force behind confiscatory state property taxation.

    I don’t know where you live but here in PA, the annual property tax on a house with a market value of $150,000 will typically be in the range of $3000 to $5000. So let’s say you buy a $150,000 house with a 10% down payment and you get a 30 year mortgage loan. Your monthly mortgage payment will be about $625 and your monthly property tax bill could easily be $300; hardly a “minor outlay.”

    “But like the cost of the property itself, these taxes are way too high. In fact taxes really shouldn’t exist at all. Taxes are a capitalist way of fleecing the unconnected from the power structure to finance the power structure in order to reinforce capitalist dominance.”

    It’s unrealistic to say that taxes “shouldn’t exist at all.” Taxes, like almost everything else in the universe fall somewhere on a moral spectrum. An argument can be made that the “state” has some legitimate authority to levy and collect certain taxes on certain things. For example, without a system of highways, a legal system, a banking system, etc., overseen by the state, there could be no modern commerce. So it can be argued that the state has a right to collect a reasonable tax on income or on sales in return for a safe and well regulated society without which commerce as such couldn’t exist.

    But levying and collecting an arbitrarily high tax on land and shelter, which are necessities of human life, is a completely different moral, philosophical and ultimately legal situation. Ownership of property – especially property necessary to sustain life – is a pre-political right; that is to say, we were living in caves and surviving off the food and water provided by the land, long before we created “government.” This is called the “state of nature”; it’s the hypothetical life of people before societies were created.

    “None of this has anything to do with Marxism, other than being an oligarch misdirection counter to Marxism. And satan has about as much influence as god. IE: nil.”

    LOL! Seriously? Clearly you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT THE SUBJECT. Communism was conceived as a satanic political ideology implemented to overturn the natural order; a “spiritual jihad” against God so to speak. There’s a reason that the implementation of property taxation is the very FIRST tenet of Marx’ communist manifesto and there’s a reason that the same jews who push gun control also generally push confiscatory property taxation. Unfortunately I don’t have the time right now to explain it to you in detail.

    • Replies: @Awash
    , @Biff
  142. @ChineseMom

    Thank you for your input. The more information the close we come to the truth. As the philosopher Plato said over two thousand years ago, ” It takes all of our knowledge to come close to the truth.” PEACE.

  143. Awash says:
    @ChineseMom

    Godfree is like Mao, you have to agree to every thing he says verbatim, otherwise he gets miffed. Glad he isn’t the ruler where he lives.

  144. Excellent stuff Godfree. Always appreciate info on China not from Falun Gong/Epoch Times or CIA.

    Here’s some other stuff I’ve read lately that may interest some, concerning Chinese socialism:

    Excellent Twitter thread on China and socialism:

    https://rainershea.com/f/“china-is-capitalist”-is-an-anti-marxist-position-to-take

    https://www.invent-the-future.org/2018/10/is-china-still-socialist/

    https://journal-neo.org/2020/07/03/why-is-china-painted-as-capitalist-by-western-propaganda/

    This kid is good to follow on twitter, he writes mostly about China, debunks a lot of the myths and propaganda we get from the CIA

  145. Awash says:
    @Harold Smith

    Who is satan? Does it have a gender? Have you ever seen it?

    I agree that states need to tax to make modern society possible. Property taxes should be low on average houses, and high on rich guys houses.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  146. Biff says:
    @Harold Smith

    here in PA, the annual property tax on a house with a market value of $150,000 will typically be in the range of $3000 to $5000. So let’s say you buy a $150,000 house with a 10% down payment and you get a 30 year mortgage loan. Your monthly mortgage payment will be about $625 and your monthly property tax bill could easily be $300;

    Who, in their right mind would want to live in a place like that?

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  147. The technical aspects of this piece aside, it is generously infused with relationships – human relationships. I experienced a feeling of warmth and camaraderie reading about real lives of real human beings, with all their trials, tribulations, achievements, pains, joys. The human being is right at the center of the human project. In the West, all would be lost in the anonymity of stats, faceless rulers and an even greater facelessness of the ruled, subsumed under lifeless stats and pawns manipulated by anonymous crooks and robber barons. This would explain our flimsy social fabric so utterly bereft of compassion and empathy.

  148. @Biff

    I’m getting out; it’s unconstitutional and completely out of control.

    Legislation has been proposed that would eliminate the school property tax, the most damaging one, but the communists here have been able to prevent it from going anywhere. (BTW it’s not just PA; other states are bad too, e.g. NJ, NY, IL, etc.)

    • Replies: @Biff
  149. Ron Unz says:
    @ChineseMom

    Deng”s accomplishments were not as great as Mao, people not trust or love him as Mao, so he had less ability to dictate than Mao. Jiang and Hu didn’t have much accomplishment and their personal abilities are limited, so they are weak leaders. Xi’s anti-corruption is very successful, a real accomplishment. I think this gives him more power then Jiang ant Hu. Targeted poverty alleviation is another accomplishment for him.

    Thanks for a very interesting perspective. It’s extremely welcome to have someone like you participate in these discussions, given that you seem to have direct personal experience of these matters, while being so much less “agitated” and obnoxious than many of other commenters.

    • Thanks: ChineseMom
  150. @Awash

    “Who is satan?”

    I think of satan not as “who” but “what”; the best description I can think of would be the “spiritual force of evil.”

    “Does it have a gender?”

    Not that I know of.

    “Have you ever seen it?”

    Not directly, no, but the indirect evidence of its existence seems quite plentiful, IMO.

    “I agree that states need to tax to make modern society possible. Property taxes should be low on average houses, and high on rich guys houses.”

    The problem is that property tax is wrong in principle – especially when levied and collected against a necessity of life. Once you agree that it’s within the legitimate authority of the state to make you pay an arbitrary amount of money just to be allowed to exist, where does it stop? Since the ad valorem property tax has no basis in anyone’s ability to pay then what are the limits? If it can be 1%, then why not 2% or 5% or 10% or 100% of the market value of the property?

    Moreover, if the state can levy and collect a tax on land and shelter, and make someone homeless if they can’t pay, then why can’t it also/alternatively make everybody breathe through a valve, and tax everyone on the air they breathe, and then simply shut off the air supply when someone can’t pay?

    If the founding documents and the federal and state constitutions have any meaning, the state has no such power because the people themselves have no such power in the first place that they could’ve ceded to the state even if they wanted to.

    A state that claims this authority has usurped God and that is the essence of communism; i.e. the people have no right to exist, only the omnipotent state has a right to exist and the people exist at the fickle discretion of the state, only to serve the state.

  151. Biff says:
    @Harold Smith

    it’s unconstitutional

    I believe that the constitution states that the government can only tax “profit”, but I can’t site any references at the moment. But if that is true then obviously taxing your primary residence is unconstitutional, which is a similar argument as taxing your personal labor – there’s no profit.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
    , @mark tapley
  152. @ChineseMom

    China’s Congress is just a rubber stamp. The government officials don’t answer to the Congress.

    Where’s your evidence for asserting that?

    Is it more of a rubber stamp than the US Congress? Why?

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  153. @Biff

    As I see it, property tax, as implemented in most if not all states in the U.S. (certainly in PA) boils down to something to the effect of: “Gimme $5000 or I take your house and sell it to somebody else (and I don’t care whether or not you actually have the ability to pay what I demand).”

    In my view, this is a violation of the doctrine of substantive due process under the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. constitution, and a violation of many state constitutions; certainly those states such as PA which incorporate a version of George Mason’s “Virginia Declaration of Rights.”

    For example, Art. 1 Sec. 1 of the PA Constitution reads as follows:

    Ҥ 1. Inherent rights of mankind.

    All men are born equally free and independent, and have certain inherent and indefeasible rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring, possessing and protecting property and reputation, and of pursuing their own happiness.”

    I don’t see how PA citizens can have the “inherent and indefeasible [right]…of acquiring, possessing and protecting property” and at the same time, the “state” can have the legitimate authority to levy and collect an arbitrarily high tax on that property and to seize it and sell it to someone else if the “owner” can’t pay. IOW it’s either a natural right or it’s a privilege of wealth/income; they can’t have it both ways.

    • Agree: Biff
  154. @mark tapley

    the heavy handed oligarchy as demonstrated by the Tiananmen Square protest?

    Really? What evidence do you have that there was heavy handed oligarchy demonstrated by the Tiananmen Square protest?

  155. @Anonymous

    Anyone who has lived in both countries will tell you that Americans are more afraid of their government than Chinese–by far.

    No government kills, imprisons, or assassinates more of its citizens than the USA, and China is nowhere near close in any of those respects.

    • Agree: Biff
  156. @Erebus

    The word famine has a meaning, and it doesn’t simply mean food shortages. The idea that statistically significant numbers of people actually died of starvation during the GLF is a construct that doesn’t map well onto reality.

    I do believe that there are significant numbers of people died of starvation during the GLF, but the excessive death number (from all causes) is not as high as those politically motivated estimates. I think several millions is a reasonable estimate.

    My mother was a college student at the time. She told me that she and most female students stopped having periods during that time; even though they didn’t have enough food to eat, they still gave part of their rationed food to male students because the guys’ rationed food was about the same as girls’. My father was in Beijing and had a very high salary, he volunteered to have his salary reduced, but still high enough compared to ordinary people that he could afford to eat at restaurants occasionally, he got edema in his legs because of malnutrition. My parents social economic status could be considered among top 3%. If they were this bad, it’s not hard to imagine how bad for those poor peasants in rural countryside. Because of the strong relationship of the Communist, there were only widespread food shortages and hunger, not many deaths. So I considered this as one of the Communist accomplishment.

    I agree with your second and third points. I believe that there were female infanticide because I personally know a peasant woman who worked in Beijing as a maid tried to kill her newborn girl. The girl was adopted by a German couple. I don’t think infanticide was a common practice though.

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @Ron Unz
  157. @mark tapley

    The poor killing their newborn or selling their children to the rich as servants were common practices before the Communist took the power.” Do you really think anyone believes this. I doubt this was a common practice in any society, even in the long history of an oriental rat hole like China.

    FYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide
    There were also male infanticide in old China. There was no contraceptive method nor knowledge in those days. During the bad economic times, the poor people couldn’t even feed themselves and the children they already had. It’s only natural for them to kill the newborn.

    The Chinese archives even reveal the death toll to be an incredible 60 million.

    I think you were misinformed by those anti-China propagandas. There’s no such Chinese archives. China was a very poor and undeveloped country, not many people were literate. Do you think that counting the deaths and collecting the data were cheap and easy for a very poor country in those days without computers and man power? Besides, 60 million is about 10% of the population. If there were this many people dead during that time, every Chinese should be able to name several people they personally knew who dead during that time. But during the last 20 years debating about the death number among Chinese netizens, few people can honestly say that they have relative or friend died during that period, not even those who were from rural countryside.

    • Replies: @AnonCN
    , @Godfree Roberts
  158. Jazman says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Hi Godfree
    Can you explain me what is actually truth about Chinese family planing
    There is myth in the west that only one child is allowed
    Thanks

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  159. PJ London says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I understand how the comment may be mis-understood. The comma should have ben a full stop.
    However anyone with discernment would have realised what was said.

    Only a couple of hundred thousand (up to 300,00 at various times and places) actually took part in the march, but ;

    “The Long March is a manifesto. It has proclaimed to the world that the Red Army is an army of heroes, while the imperialists and their running dogs, Chiang Kai-shek and his like, are impotent. It has proclaimed their utter failure to encircle, pursue, obstruct and intercept us. The Long March is also a propaganda force. It has announced to some 200 million people in eleven provinces that the road of the Red Army is their only road to liberation”

    The Nationalists had power but no support, Mao had support and eventually had power.

  160. @Wizard of Oz

    That’s entirely consistent with the way the PRC treats enemies.

    After capturing Chiang Kai-shek (whose agents had murdered Mao’s wife and thrown his children onto the street), Mao treated him honorably and sent him back to his troops.

    After decades of enduring horrific massacres at the hands of the Japanese, Mao permitted thirteen to be executed (convicted of torture and multiple rapes), pardoned 1.1 million, and sent them home in such good condition that they formed an association to keep his memory alive.

  161. @ChineseMom

    In 2016, when the Education Ministry pledged to reach that goal by the 2021 centennial, they discovered thirty-million missing girls. Under Family Planning guidelines, second children were encouraged after birth spacing, though third children attracted a fine. Though minorities, rural farming families, and those with disabled parents or siblings were exempt, unregistered siblings were mostly girls. Thus was born the myth of the ‘missing girls’ which, like ‘ghost towns,’ captured imaginations but irritated political scientist John Kennedy[1], “Thirty-million girls–the population of California–are missing from the population and they think they’re just gone?” Kennedy compared 2010 census figures with girls’ enrollment and graduation rates in 2016 and reported:
    Most people are using a demographic explanation to say that abortion or infanticide are the reasons girls don’t show up in the census and that they don’t exist, but we find there’s a political explanation. The point of contention is the interaction between the central state’s capacity to influence local officials and local officials’ willingness to implement central policies–especially unpopular policies. We find that millions of unreported female births ‘appear’ in older cohorts [school enrollment years], and this also reflects a cultural shift regarding the value of girls in China. The ‘preference for sons’ cultural argument suggests that parents see sons as necessary for elderly care and contributions to family income while daughters are viewed as a burden.
    However scholars suggest that, over the last few decades and especially since the introduction of economic reforms, daughters have contributed more to their natal families (i.e., increased their value). Still, the 1990, 2000 and 2010 censuses show that unreported male births are overwhelmingly registered between the ages of one and ten years old but that the vast majority of children registered after the age of ten are females. This implies an administrative bias towards sons whereby they are registered earlier than daughters, rather than a strict son preference (i.e., fewer daughters).

    Kennedy interviewed a farmer who introduced his elder daughter and son by name but referred to his middle daughter as ‘the non-existent one,’ “He told us that his first daughter was registered but that when his second child, another daughter, was born they did not register her and instead waited to have another child. The third child was a boy and they registered him as the second child”. To keep the peace village officials, often blood relatives, turned a blind eye to children born outside family planning limits and left them unreported. Kennedy found that, though the government relaxed the rural one-child policy in the 1980s, village-level enforcement had already bypassed it and the thirty-million girls were where they should be: in school.
    Today, more girls graduate from university than boys and, normalized for job position and seniority, gender and wage gaps almost disappear.


    [1] Delayed Registration and Identifying the ”Missing Girls” in China. The China Quarterly, Volume 228. December 2016, pp. 1018-1038

    • Agree: ChineseMom
  162. @Ron Unz

    Those that cover up the truth about the monopoly capitalist tool called communism as first displayed in the blood bath of the French Revolution and glorified by the early industrialists and bankers agent Karl Marx (Moses Mordecai Levy) go to great lengths to keep people from looking at the real history.

    The former Soviet official and Jew Avraham Shifrin in his book “The first Guidebook to Prisons and Concentration Camps of The Soviet Union” said that all big projects in the USSR were done by slave labor and he lays out the 11 region Gulag system (10 run by Jews) in detail. He commented that there were no communists in Russia. That is a delusion for people like “Chinese Mom.” I would also recommend Solzeitsyn’s long suppressed book “200 Years Among Us” for another real look at this dehumanizing, atheistic plan implemented by the elites for total control. Communism is great for the elites at the top, and no doubt the devil would tell you that hell is a nice place.

  163. @Biff

    The founders laid out a system of Sovereign States (a Republic) with a very limited national Government. The graduated income tax was unconstitutional and they believed taxes overall should be so low as to be a minor issue. Had we stayed on this course instead of becoming a European style “democracy” now run by the Zionists, the benefits of individual freedom and limited government would put everyone (except those that use the power of gov. to make society work for them ) far ahead of where we are today. This process of tyrannical despotism started mainly with the attack on the South by the sodomite A. Lincoln and was followed up a few years later by the Rothschilds (Rockefeller’s , Morgan) power grab evidenced today a Zionism.

    The original constitution had little authority over the states before the illegal 14th amendment. States were only required to have a Republican government, not a monarchy. In those days before the public had become docile sheep to be fleeced, the idea of high taxes like today were unheard of.

    On the comments about Satan, the Bible says he is a fallen angel. All angels are male.

  164. Erebus says:
    @ChineseMom

    I think several millions is a reasonable estimate.

    The UN doesn’t declare a famine until there are 2 deaths / 10k pop. / week (amongst other requirements), and the deaths can’t be from diseases caused by malnutrition but by starvation.

    Famine ≠ “I’m famished”.

    I can see starvation happening in remote, isolated areas, but not across a province much less nationally. You may be interested in a recent discussion on this topic here. Enjoying your posts, but I fear you’ll soon be exasperated by the sewage spewing trolls who’ve never left the kool-aid pitcher to see what the world actually looks like.

  165. denk says:
    @VinnyVette

    How many wars have we fought both hot and cold to stop totalitarian communist regimes over the past century?

    Why you keep talking rubbish ?
    I see you’ve already been roundly spanked.

    YOu enjoy getting spanked ?

    https://www.unz.com/article/the-rising-cult-of-china-experts/#comment-4168858

  166. @Godfree Roberts

    The National People’s Congress in China is totally different from the US Congress.

    1. It’s members are not elected. There’s no real election in China.
    2. It’s members have other full time jobs.
    3. It’s members don’t have any power.
    4. It’s members usually don’t have the ability to propose any legislation or to fully understand the issues presented to them. A lots of them were not even well educated.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_People%27s_Congress#Powers_and_duties

    I had an uncle once served as the Congress member. He was a university math professor, a good person with good publications, so his university official let him to be the Congress member. The only thing he had to do was to come to Beijing for the annual meeting. Because he was representing his university, when people in the university had any problem with the government, they could ask him for help or just tell him about the problem, he would inform government officials about the problem. But this kind of thing rarely happened.

    • Replies: @AnonCN
    , @Godfree Roberts
  167. @VinnyVette

    There has been a massive PR campaign to cover the brutal history of communism in China. We saw the same thing with the Soviet Union all the way through the Zionist instigated WW2. Once they were converted over to the new enemy, the court historians and controlled MSM allowed more truth to leak out. China was raised up from an economic backwater after the U.S. defeated the Japanese, then gave their military hardware to the communist forces while at the same time cutting off all aid to Chiang Kai-shek. This is all documented in Anthony Kubek’s book “How the Far East Was Lost.”

    Mao’s brutal regime is also documented in the other books I mentioned. The Zionists must always maintain an external enemy. Now that China’s massive industrial and high tech development launched by the U.S. has been going on since its inception in the late 70’s we are beginning to see the Zionist rhetoric starting to paint China as the enemy along with the revamped Russian kleptocracy. As FDR (((Van Rosenvelt))) stated “in politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.” FDR with his 52 Zionist Jew advisors led by Bernard Baruch, ought to know. The same syndicate runs things today.

    • Replies: @Tor597
  168. AnonCN says:
    @Ron Unz

    While her perspective to my Chinese ears sound like like ABCDEFG, I even thought that it’s some universal thing, simple and basic, with the same original logic as it is in your Hollywood superhero movies.
    The more you can contribute to your people, more leadership and power you get from your people.
    Why is that a ‘very interesting perspective’?
    Isn’t it natural that people tend to love/respect/follow the leader that can really lead?

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  169. Anonymous[157] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ron Unz

    Invective and polemic is proportionate to the subject matter.

    The fact that College Board has been administrating and quantifying SAT’s as an agent of the Chinese government and almost certainly cheating to artificially inflate the SAT scores of Chinese in the US is infuriating. Just another betrayal to add to a long list of depredations by alien not-Americans who in due course, are going to be going back. You still don’t believe it. It’s going to be an economic inevitability.

    Noxious, toxic subject matter is going to be subject to increasingly ‘obnoxious’ ‘agitated’ responses.

    The criticisms of Jung Chang being made here are asinine. She has no veracity despite her voluminous citations, because she was a high-level official and her family were members of the inner-party? She was weak because she escaped a regime that did, in fact, murder millions of people and destroyed all of China’s cultural artifacts? How do we escape that one? Can Godfree explain what happened to all of China’s precious artifacts?

    Chinesemom’s perspective is welcome as an insight into the psychology of the Chinese people.

    Lies about the nature and record of Mao are not.

    It is astonishing that officials like Deng responsible for the microeconomic reform that led to China’s growth are regarded as inferior to Mao, when Mao did practically everything within his power to destroy the Chinese economy.

    Ms Chang painstakingly evidences that up to 1958 Mao had forced 1,639 arms factories to be built, and only 28 ever actually produced anything during his reign etc.

    Mao forced the creation of collective food canteens where peasants had to leave their homes and live in camps where the food had been moved. First, to pretend there was no food shortage, he gave them more food then they could eat. Then, when it ran out within a few months, he cut off their food arbitrarily, then forced them to move back to their homes which had been dismantled to be used as fuel for the useless pig-iron smelts. All of their livestock and home provisions in the meantime had been sold as ‘surplus food’ for useless military hardware.

    Mao even tried to remove the practice of people having names and replacing names with numbers. He stopped movement out of famine zones and forced people to die where they lay – it reminds one a bit of COVID-19 policy as practiced by Ms Whitmer et al and the beloved DNC who are going to lose the upcoming election in a landslide to Mr Trump. It’s really interesting to compare the policy platforms of Mao with contemporary DNC policy – such as it exists. To be fair to Mao, he had a more definite & credible policy agenda then the modern DNC, given that he made policy decisions from his bath based on dreams.

    It is astonishing that Chinese commentators simply seem to accept there was no alternative. I respect that, but it is nonetheless astonishing.

    Maos’ economic agenda was one of the most wasteful and feckless in history – but we’re told to celebrate it by Godfree, why? Because the World Bank at China’s behest has engaged in retrospective GDP averaging from 1974 to 1945 based on totally guessed imputations at very best, or more likely just plain lies? Again, no one on the planet can state what China’s GDP was during Mao’s reign, because his economic numbers were simply made up out of whole cloth. They can use lies, or they can engage in make-believe based on retrospective reverse trajectories, but that is the extent of what they can do. The fact it’s the World Bank doesn’t change the econometric fundamentals.

    Mao and the communist party were responsible for population growth? What about the return of Manchukuo, departure of the Japanese, cessation of a vicious civil war, the end of World War 2, and vast American and Soviet aid? I respect Chinesemom’s opinions, but it does seem strange that all of those factors are secondary to Mao’s quixotic experimentation. It would have been astonishing if population static under conditions of war didn’t increase when war ended, regardless of how ridiculous governance was.

    Mao’s record of lunacy has been meticulously documented. The fact China grew in spite of Mao’s lunatic impediments to that growth is testament to the strength of the Chinese people, and the bravery of men like Chou En-Lai who restrained him.

    The fact that Mao continues to be espoused seriously is testament to the truth of the total failure of civic-nationalism, the idea of universal rationality, and the possibility of maintaining a diverse society in the United States.

    I see that Xi has now announced that the Chinese government will be intervening much more closely in the private sector economy http://cpc.people.com.cn/n1/2020/0916/c64036-31862864.html .

    Well, if anyone can run a centralized system, Xi can, particularly with the help of his social credit panopticon and AI, so I hope he is more successful then his predecessors.

    China’s bureaucrats are indeed much smarter then those in the United States – so I wish them luck. Hopefully this Chinese national-socialism isn’t a prelude to any escalated conflict.

  170. denk says:
    @TKK

    America- bad!
    China- good!

    At least the Chinese dont bother us.
    They mind their own biz

    A typical CCP five year plan,

    Attain zero poverty by 2025,
    [this has hit a snag, due to the fukus engineered biowarfare, aka covid 19]

    Achieve hi tec self sufficiency ,
    Made In China 2030
    [This is the reason why fukus crap that shit in Wuhan,
    if you cant beat them…….]

    New fast rail from Shengzhen to Xinjiang

    etc etc
    ————————————
    This is typical fukus five year plan…

    https://genius.com/General-wesley-clark-seven-countries-in-five-years-annotated

    Its the murikkans who wanna lord over
    everybody else.

    Spare us this ‘China is just as bad if not worse’ crap.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  171. AnonCN says:
    @ChineseMom

    Your uncle is not a professional politician. If he doesn’t do anything as a congress man, its just him don’t cherish the power he had in his hand, he doesn’t see the politic value of the respect and trust he earned. That’s his thing. Many Chinese are not used to involving in politics, not until the day they have to getting involved.
    There are also other congressmen/representatives who cherish the power they have, who proposes new legislations, who speak out loudly to make a small difference.

    I don’t see any necessary for Chinese congress to the same as the US one.
    I don’t see any need for those representatives to go professional for politic. Who would they represent for in that case?
    What real election? The US one? No, let’s pay our own price and find our own way. I believe 1.4 billion people can pay for anything, just give us more time.

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  172. Anonymous[259] • Disclaimer says:

    Hewlett-Packard moved huge factories to Xinjiamg… no wonder America is becoming poorer by the day. With friends like that, who would have need of enemies?

  173. AnonCN says:
    @ChineseMom

    Since your time is not infinite, you will find out that there are people in this world (right here in this site) doesn’t worth your time to type even one word

  174. Tor597 says:
    @mark tapley

    What exactly is your point since you never answered my critiques?

    China is communist (and this dooms them) and America is capitalist (and this gaurantees success)?

    The truth is that China is much more capitalist and America is much more communist than you are letting on.

    Bringing up Mao doesn’t make sense. I agree that Mao was a terrible leader. But that was a long time ago and China has prospered tremendously since then.

    You just come off as a hater with nothing to add.

    • Agree: Harold Smith
    • Replies: @anon
  175. denk says:
    @mark tapley

    Who do the thugs ruling China

    Screaming Thugs, thugs, thugs…
    in every comment.

    Speak for yourself idiot.

    Try this for size,

    Kidnapping the Huawei CFO to exact trade concession from the Chinese…

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/book-reveals-trump-sees-meng-170000819.html

    Sounds like a mofoking thug to me

    • Agree: Harold Smith, Tor597
  176. Ron Unz says:
    @ChineseMom

    I do believe that there are significant numbers of people died of starvation during the GLF, but the excessive death number (from all causes) is not as high as those politically motivated estimates. I think several millions is a reasonable estimate….

    My mother was a college student at the time. She told me that she and most female students stopped having periods during that time; even though they didn’t have enough food to eat…My father was in Beijing and had a very high salary, he volunteered to have his salary reduced, but still high enough compared to ordinary people that he could afford to eat at restaurants occasionally, he got edema in his legs because of malnutrition. My parents social economic status could be considered among top 3%. If they were this bad, it’s not hard to imagine how bad for those poor peasants in rural countryside.

    Since you seem like a very level-headed individual with good personal knowledge of that history, it would be interesting if you were to take a closer look at the GLF evidence and see what you thought. We’d had a heated debate on that issue earlier this month, but many of the participants seemed to be irrationally committed to particular positions.

    What seemed to me like very strong evidence was China’s subsequent population-pyramid, based upon official statistics:

    As you can see, there’s a *gigantic* “hole” in the age-cohort born around the GLF years, presumably due to very high infant-mortality and reduced-fertility, with 40-50% of the children being “missing.” That seems like exactly what one would expect to see after a huge famine, and suggests population losses well into the tens of millions, since many non-infants obviously died as well.

    Back a few months ago, I’d read TOMBSTONE, written by a retired high-ranking PRC journalist, with the assistance of many other PRC provincial officials and demography experts. He included a 40 page chapter presenting about 8-10 different demographic estimates of the total GLF losses, most of which seemed to be in the range of 35 million deaths, with additional tens of millions of population losses due to reduced fertility. I think those sorts of numbers seem pretty consistent with the official population-pyramid.

    I believe you mentioned you currently live in the US, so it would be very easy for you to order a copy of TOMBSTONE from Amazon and see what you think about the credibility of the material presented:

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  177. @AnonCN

    I agree with what you said, but it doesn’t change the fact that the National People’s Congress in China is just a rubber stamp. Godfree Roberts asked me to give the evidence for my assertion, so I wrote that post.

    • Replies: @d dan
  178. anon[176] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tor597

    Truth is China is just a racist country. It’s not communist or capitalist. China is going nowhere.

    They are just arrogant racial supremacists who think they’re better than everyone.
    Nobody can stand them.

    Does China have any allies? Literally none. None of China’s neighbors actually have any love for Chinese – they only do business with them because you can’t not do business with Chinese now. Chinese can only use their money to manipulate people and get what they want. And every business deal made with a Chinese always works in the Chinese party’s favor.
    That kind of mentality can only take you so far.

    Can a poor Mexican or Cambodian or Vietnamese go to China to get rich? Haha. Maybe they can go to China to be a nanny or a servant. Now you understand why everyone still goes to America.

    All of the races of the world are invested in America and are not to going to let it go away so that racist Chinese can show off and act cocky with them. Chinese universities, jobs, benefits, etc. are for Chinese people only – China offers nothing to the rest of the world. American universities, jobs, benefits, etc. are for everyone to share, for the whole world. Even when China builds infrastructure overseas, opens embassies abroad, or whatever, they hire Chinese only, never local people. Thanks China. Selfish pricks.

    It’s no wonder all of the racists and White nationalists on Unz love China so much – racists of a feather just flock together. Like-minded people who share a common worldview understand each other. What racists hate about America is what makes America great.

    America offers everyone in the world the chance to start a new life and improve their situation. Even Chinese come to America for that reason.

    America is the future – it’s where all the races come together to live in harmony. It’s a microcosm of HUMANITY. China is just a microcosm of China and a bigger and bigger China – it makes me sick.

    America represents progress, egalitarianism, and human rights. It’s the way of the future, not China.

    China sets humanity backwards. Back to tribal warfare and petty nationalism. Back to greed, status-seeking, back-stabbing, etc.

    We’re done with that. We’re not going back there anymore.

    It’s time for China to catch up with the 21st century and join the rest of humanity.

    • LOL: Erebus, Tor597
    • Troll: d dan
    • Replies: @Tor597
    , @mark tapley
  179. denk says:

    America represents progress, egalitarianism, and human rights. It’s the way of the future, not China.

    It’s time for China to catch up with the 21st century and join the rest of humanity.

    Who needs to join humanity you say ?

    Me against the world
    http://krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html

    UNZ should ban anon posting,
    I want to bozo file this troll.

    • Replies: @Anon
  180. Anon[252] • Disclaimer says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Looking at Chinese history of over two thousand years would convince most people that turmoil will happen in China, as elsewhere.

  181. Anonymous[428] • Disclaimer says:
    @Astuteobservor II

    I’m from the UK.

    Since childhood, it was bred into my generation that Americans were/are ‘ridiculously rich’ as compared to Britons, the notion being that even the humblest American workers had an exceptional standard of living as compared to the typical Briton.
    At least, that was the perception 40/50 years ago.
    Today, when I look at wage rates in the USA for most typical working class occupations, there seems to be no difference to that pertaining in the UK, when adjusted for exchange rates. In fact, I’d even go as far as saying that, typically, American wages are *lower*.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  182. d dan says:
    @ChineseMom

    China’s Congress is just a rubber stamp. The government officials don’t answer to the Congress.

    Where’s your evidence for asserting that?

    I don’t see any need for those representatives to go professional for politic.

    I agree with what you said, but it doesn’t change the fact that the National People’s Congress in China is just a rubber stamp.

    I think the confusion here is that they haven’t learn the skills. If they fight like this in the Taiwanese parliament, they would be called a “vibrant democracy” rather than a “rubber stamp body”:

    Maybe Jackie Chan should spend more time in Beijing rather than Hong Kong?

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @Rdm
  183. Tor597 says:
    @anon

    Did some Chinaman hurt you?

    Lol at the idea China is more racist than America.

    You are just bitter that China is acting like a nationalist state and looking after the interests of its people.

    Who says China does not have any friends? You think America has friends? American allies only care about access to the American markets or they fear America will attack them. That is not real friendship. Just wait till America collapses and see how many countries are actually happy about that.

    A big no to the fake race relations found in America which is actually a big caste system.

    The rest of the world will be grateful that it could stand up to America. Maybe not the elites in these countries. But average everyday people yes.

    • Agree: denk
  184. @Ron Unz

    As you can see, there’s a *gigantic* “hole” in the age-cohort born around the GLF years, presumably due to very high infant-mortality and reduced-fertility, with 40-50% of the children being “missing.”

    I think Yang international used that graph to mislead. That big gap is not due to the high infant deaths, it is the result of the reduced-fertility. There’s originality data from China’s National Bureau of Statistics showed that there’s a big drop in birth rates during those three year.

    We’d had a heated debate on that issue earlier this month, but many of the participants seemed to be irrationally committed to particular positions.

    It has been a hot topic for many years in China, and most participants are also irrationally committed to particular positions, LoL.

    I consider TOMBSTONE‘s author Yang as journalist with anti-Mao era position. Like most journalists in China, especially his generation, he is not good at understanding or analyzing the data. The data he used in his books are all garbage, the methods he used are also wrong.

    Here are the links of some articles refuting Yang’s book published in Chinese websites by a math professor Sun Jing Xian

    http://www.guancha.cn/history/2013_09_11_171787.shtml
    http://www.guancha.cn/SunJingXian/2013_08_25_167986.shtml
    http://www.mzfxw.com/e/action/ShowInfo.php?classid=18&id=61357
    https://www.kunlunce.com/e/wap/show.php?bclassid=0&classid=131&id=1978

    This article chronicled how this 30 million death number came out and spreaded:

    http://www.cwzg.cn/history/201610/31906.html

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  185. Anon[252] • Disclaimer says:
    @denk

    Orly, and denk is known to whom? denk is anonymous as far as readers are concerned. What typical reader knows who you are?

    • Replies: @Erebus
  186. @anon

    China has gotten massive aid, western investment and technology transfers since the communists were installed by the Zionists as documented by Anthony Kubek in his book “How the Far East Was Lost.” David Rockefeller even furnished the degenerate Mao’s eulogy in the New York Times. China has been anointed by the Zionist’s MSM whores as a miracle of collective progress. This is the same scam used to promote the Soviets in the 30’s. Now we see the first signs of the changing tide as China is starting to be criticized by the Zionist controlled Trump ad. Once China and The Kleptocracy in Russia achieve more military parity with Jewmerica, the ready made external enemies the Zionists must have will be used for the 3rd world war between the western NATO block and the East. This will result in the long planned martial law and installment of the new global feudalist system.

  187. Smith says:

    Um, who’s “we”.

    Hello I guess?

  188. Ron Unz says:
    @ChineseMom

    Here are the links of some articles refuting Yang’s book published in Chinese websites by a math professor Sun Jing Xian

    Yes, Prof. Sun’s rebuttal to Yang’s book had come up in the previous discussion-thread, and it seemed the first legitimate critique I’d seen from the other side. On the other hand, Sun’s a mathematician, while the Chinese experts who assisted Yang’s research were experienced professional demographers.

    And unfortunately, I don’t read Chinese, so I can’t evaluate Yang’s articles, even if I had the technical expertise. Also, a few of Sun’s specific claims were that Yang’s figures on several pages were incorrect for the death toll records in particular counties. But since I can’t go to China and consult the archival records for e.g. Changshu County, Jiangsu Province, there’s really no way I can decide who’s correct.

    Since you can read Sun’s articles, you really might want to order a copy of the TOMBSTONE book and read the 40 page chapter estimating total deaths. It would only take you a couple of hours, and then you could better decide whether Sun or Yang seemed more persuasive.

    • Replies: @mark tapley
    , @ChineseMom
  189. @Vojkan

    They all answer to the same global syndicate that put them in power and controls financially practically all the countries of any consequence. Since the first International Zionist Convention in 1897 there has been a lot of progress. From the world wars to 911 and the WMD’s to the ongoing destruction of the Middle East. From the Kelrgi Plan flooding Europe with Africans to the staged riots in Seattle. From permeant war and blood and treasure for the Kazar thugs of Israel to the bailout for billionaires in 08-09 to the current theft of more trillions by the banking cartel under the cover of the long planned fake virus. The Zionist criminal syndicate is running the show and is getting close to finishing the course.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  190. vot tak says:
    @vot tak

    Those guardianistas never fail to support their fellow zionazi-gay co-spammers. The sodding (literally) things destroy communication.

  191. @ChineseMom

    The point about having a math professor in Congress is that most Chinese legislation is based on math.

    Chinese legislation is data-driven, and 90% of it is trialled in counties, cities and provinces before it reaches the National People’s Congress.

    Robin Daverman explains the legislative process:

    China is a giant trial portfolio with millions of trials going on everywhere: innovations in everything from healthcare to poverty reduction, education, energy, trade and transportation are being trialled in different communities. Every one of China’s 662 cities is experimenting: Shanghai with free trade zones, Guizhou with poverty reduction, twenty-three cities with education reforms, Northeastern provinces with SOE reform, pilot schools, pilot cities, pilot hospitals, pilot markets, pilot everything.

    Mayors and governors, the Primary Investigators, share their ‘lab results’ at the Central Party School and publish them in State-owned media, their ‘scientific journals.’

    Beginning in small towns, major policies undergo ‘clinical trials’ that generate and analyze test data. If the stats look good, they’ll add test sites and do long-term follow-ups. They test and tweak for 10-30 years then ask the 3,000-member People’s Congress to review the data and authorize national trials in three major provinces. If those trials are successful, the State Council [China’s Brains Trust] polishes the plan and takes it back to Congress for a final vote. It’s very transparent and, if your data is better than mine, your bill gets passed and mine doesn’t. Congress’ votes are nearly unanimous because the legislation is backed by reams of data.

    This allows China to accomplish a great deal in a short time, because your winning solution will be quickly propagated throughout the country, you’ll be a front page hero, invited to high-level meetings in Beijing and promoted. As you can imagine, the competition to solve problems is intense. Local governments have a great deal of freedom to try their own things as long as they have the support of the local people. Everything from bare-knuckled liberalism to straight communism has been tried by various villages and small towns.

    Thousands of Trial Spots generate immense volumes of data[1], says author Jeff J. Brown[2],

    “My Beijing neighborhood committee and town hall are constantly putting up announcements, inviting groups of people–renters, homeowners, over seventies, women under forty, those with or without medical insurance, retirees–to answer surveys. The CPC is the world’s biggest pollster for a reason: China’s democratic ‘dictatorship of the people’ is highly engaged at the day-to-day, citizen-on-the-street level. I know, because I live in a middle class Chinese community and I question them all the time. I find their government much more responsive and democratic than the dog-and-pony shows back home, and I mean that seriously”.


    [1] The Chinese Labor Dynamics Survey (Sun Yat-Sen University), the Chinese Family Panel Survey (Peking U), the Chinese General Social Survey (Renmin U), the Chinese Income Inequality Surveys (Beijing Normal U) and polls by Harvard University, Gallup, Edelman, World Values and Asian Barometer.
    [2] 44 Days Backpacking in China: The Middle Kingdom in the 21st Century, with the United States, Europe and the Fate of the World in Its Looking Glass. Jeff J. Brown. 2013

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  192. @ChineseMom

    When I said that I know of only one person who died in the Cultural Revolution–which I have studied extensively–many people attacked me for ‘cherry picking’ or being pro-communist.

    But when I asked them to identify another death they were silent.

    Researchers who have done field work in provinces where the famine was worst were told, “yes, so-and-so died in the famine, and so did his uncle and my grandmother, etc., etc.”

    When he asked them the age of the deceased at death, they all replied that they were in their 60s–at a time when average life expectancy was 58. And all of the deceased had been born and grew up in an environment of hunger and disease, so it is hardly surprising that months of bad nutrition tipped them over the edge.

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  193. @Ron Unz

    That would be about as reliable as getting Hilary to give us an honest accounting of the Destruction of Libya or the need to continue attacks on Syria’s Assad, since she has already stated that “the best way we can help Israel is to attack Syria.” ChineseMom is cut from the same cloth.

  194. @Jazman

    Like all social policies, the Family Planning bill had wide popular support–about 72%, I believe–because it offered a valuable benefit–world-class schooling, which every Chinese parent desires–in exchange for spacing births.

    Under Family Planning guidelines, second children were encouraged after birth spacing, though third children attracted a fine.

    Minorities, rural farming families, and those with disabled parents or siblings were exempt or encouraged to limit births to two.

    Thus was born the myth of the ‘missing girls’ which, like ‘ghost towns,’ captured imaginations but irritated political scientist John Kennedy[1], “Thirty-million girls–the population of California–are missing from the population and they think they’re just gone?” Kennedy compared 2010 census figures with girls’ enrollment and graduation rates in 2016 and reported:

    Most people are using a demographic explanation to say that abortion or infanticide are the reasons girls don’t show up in the census and that they don’t exist, but we find there’s a political explanation. The point of contention is the interaction between the central state’s capacity to influence local officials and local officials’ willingness to implement central policies–especially unpopular policies. We find that millions of unreported female births ‘appear’ in older cohorts [school enrollment years], and this also reflects a cultural shift regarding the value of girls in China. The ‘preference for sons’ cultural argument suggests that parents see sons as necessary for elderly care and contributions to family income while daughters are viewed as a burden.
    However scholars suggest that, over the last few decades and especially since the introduction of economic reforms, daughters have contributed more to their natal families (i.e., increased their value). Still, the 1990, 2000 and 2010 censuses show that unreported male births are overwhelmingly registered between the ages of one and ten years old but that the vast majority of children registered after the age of ten are females. This implies an administrative bias towards sons whereby they are registered earlier than daughters, rather than a strict son preference (i.e., fewer daughters).

    Kennedy interviewed a farmer who introduced his elder daughter and son by name but referred to his middle daughter as ‘the non-existent one,’ “He told us that his first daughter was registered but that when his second child, another daughter, was born they did not register her and instead waited to have another child. The third child was a boy and they registered him as the second child”. To keep the peace village officials, often blood relatives, turned a blind eye to children born outside family planning limits and left them unreported. Kennedy found that, though the government relaxed the rural one-child policy in the 1980s, village-level enforcement had already bypassed it and the thirty-million girls were where they should be: in school.


    [1] Delayed Registration and Identifying the “Missing Girls” in China. The China Quarterly, Volume 228. December 2016, pp. 1018-1038

    • Thanks: Erebus
    • Replies: @Jazman
  195. @Ron Unz

    These two unclassified CIA reports on China in 1961 and 1962 are worth reading:
    https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0001098172.pdf
    https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0001098211.pdf

    It confirmed three things: huge increase in population from 1957 to 1960 (50 million), two years bad weather resulted food production in 1960 was less than in 1957, no wide spread famine.

    Because you don’t know the background of Yang’s book, your other questions are not that easy to answer, I’ll explain to you late when I have time.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  196. Erebus says:
    @Anon

    What typical reader knows who you are?

    It has nothing to do with knowing who you are, and everything to do with having a comment history that can be referenced.

    Using a consistent handle on Unz generates a comment history. History establishes bona fides, and can yield a general impression of whether one is dealing with a serious person, a madman, or someone simply trying to disrupt. I generally stay away from them, as do many other veteran posters.

    “Anonymous” yields no more anonymity than a “Pseudonymic Handle”, but does prevent the creation of a searchable comment history. As there are few legitimate reasons to avoid creating a history, one concludes that only those that would disrupt rather than contribute to the conversation would use it.

    • Replies: @denk
  197. @Godfree Roberts

    The point about having a math professor in Congress is that most Chinese legislation is based on math.

    LOL. Most people in the Congress are not professors. My uncle was probably just a rare case. There have been a lot of entertainment celebrities, peasants and factory workers in the Congress. They’re just there to discuss the legislation that government proposed and put stamp on them.

    Chinese legislation is data-driven, and 90% of it is trialled in counties, cities and provinces before it reaches the National People’s Congress.

    Robin Daverman explains the legislative process:

    This is probably true, especially recently decades.

  198. @Godfree Roberts

    When I said that I know of only one person who died in the Cultural Revolution–which I have studied extensively–many people attacked me for ‘cherry picking’ or being pro-communist.

    Are you talking about the Cultural Revolution or the “famine”? It’s not difficult to find more than one death during the Cultural Revolution due to the persecution.

    Researchers who have done field work in provinces where the famine was worst were told, “yes, so-and-so died in the famine, and so did his uncle and my grandmother, etc., etc.”

    When he asked them the age of the deceased at death, they all replied that they were in their 60s–at a time when average life expectancy was 58. And all of the deceased had been born and grew up in an environment of hunger and disease, so it is hardly surprising that months of bad nutrition tipped them over the edge.

    Yes, I asked many people and got the similar answers.

  199. @Wizard of Oz

    Godfree’s Confucianism is about as phony as Mao’s little Red Book of communist truisms. The only code he lived by was the one in which he stated “power comes from the barrel of a gun.”

    The idea that this kakistocracy of thugs that have caused the deaths of millions, more than any other tyrannical depots in history is trying to inculcate a moral system in the youth is ludicrous. Their whole philosophy can be summed up as “be a good barnyard animal and keep your mouth shut.” Anyone over there that doesn’t follow this philosophy is most likely going to be picked up and not be seen again. To inculcate values requires freedom of thought and freedom of speech. The notion of divergent opinions or religious freedoms, much less the western heresy of Rule of Law has never been part of Chinese culture nor of communism (monopoly capitalism). They tolerate no religion except worship of the State as all Trotskyites, Neo-Cons and Zionists, regardless of the political front they shill for. All roads lead to Hegal and the State as god. That is why they are the model for the NWO and determined to instill even more “values” in order to make sure the cattle are all obedient workers.

    This oligarchy of entitled elite criminals that pontificate around as if they are working for the people are nothing but a bunch of crony parasites living and skimming off the productivity of the Chinese people. Just like the animals on Orwells book: All the animals on the animal farm were equal, but some were more equal than others.

    • Troll: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @Biff
  200. Jazman says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Thank you Godfree so much . Very good point vs western myths

  201. denk says:
    @mark tapley

    The Muslims in the North would revolt against their Chinese overlords at any opportunity. There are other groups with simmering resentment against the heavy handed oligarchy as demonstrated by the Tiananmen Square protest. The gov. since then has only tightened it’s grip.

    tsk tsk tsk

    sTraight outta a guardian hit piece.

    Your slip is showing honey.

    ‘Heavy handed’

    Idiot,
    How long would those HK peaceful rioters, TAM molotov cocktail ‘peaceful students’, UIghur head choppers last in Washington DC, before they are cut down by a hailstorm of bullets…..
    5 min ?

    At least they were given a fair trial by those brutal thugs in Beijing.

    brutal, thugs, brutal , thugs

    Bandits crying robbery.
    Do murikkas have mirror in their homes ?

    hehehehhe

    PS
    To that anon idiot,
    I dont wanna waste a separate post for you,
    neither do I wanna know you [sic]
    Get a gawd damned handle so I can scroll past your rubbish next time.
    Now you can fuck off.

  202. denk says:
    @Erebus

    There are exceptions..

    Every now and then, some anon come along and offer kick ass insights.

    Regrettably they choose to remain anon 🙁

  203. Ron Unz says:
    @ChineseMom

    These two unclassified CIA reports on China in 1961 and 1962 are worth reading…It confirmed three things: huge increase in population from 1957 to 1960 (50 million), two years bad weather resulted food production in 1960 was less than in 1957, no wide spread famine.

    Thanks for those declassified CIA reports. Just as you say, they discuss the very difficult food situation in China, due to a mixture of bad weather and counter-productive Great Leap Forward policies, leading to widespread malnutrition, but apparently no famine.

    That’s certainly evidence worth considering. But I really wonder whether the CIA really had much of an effective intelligence operation in the rural Chinese areas in which the alleged famine was occurring.

    One of the important points that Yang makes is that the central government was being given false reports by local officials, who were determined to avoid revealing just how bad things actually were. My guess is that most of the CIA intelligence would have come from those central government sources, so if they were being misled, then the CIA would have been misled as well.

    • Replies: @mark tapley
  204. Vojkan says:
    @mark tapley

    OK. Now, how is it better than what China has? You must admit that the Chinese leadership cares at least a tiny little more for the Chinese people than the ziobanksters care for Western people.

  205. xcd says:

    “In 1850.. capitalists created the first market economy.”

    I know you have to start somewhere, and perhaps soothe the expected readers for what follows, but this is just a part of bedrock propaganda. The reality has always been fascism: collusion, rigged economy, exploitation, brute force and unearned income.

    “.. the cessation of taxes and introduction of subsidies are still not enough for farmers to make a living..”

    This is a critical matter. Food production is vital to dismantling the folly of globalism.

    My suggestion to Godfree Roberts: For questions you have answered earlier, just provide a link to that answer.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  206. xcd says:
    @Erebus

    On a related note
    – there have been no further outbreaks of covid even in such factory dorms in China
    – there have been no end of “cases” in certain developing countries that the “democratic” West rates highly.

  207. xcd says:
    @Deep Thought

    Also on the subject of civil war deaths, who/what was the source of finance for Chiang Kai Shek’s army?

  208. xcd says:
    @Ugetit

    So did Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddhafi, contrary to propaganda, but see what happened to them.

  209. xcd says:
    @Cho Seung-hui

    Fortunately, this website provides a feature I find indespensible. Under Agree/Disagree, select Ignore Commenter.

  210. xcd says:
    @vot tak

    Talk of rising rent and declining home ownership is polite economics talk. The whole world has seen photos of the homeless on the streets of towns and cities. Trash, feces, syringes and dogs surround them. They struggle with hunger, physical and mental illness, and violence.

  211. xcd says:
    @Sollipsist

    When big business cannot get things done by bribery/blackmail, or the recepient cannot conceal his wealth – say by sending it to the “free market” abroad – then, it is faced with having to be useful to society. Yes, the same society that Thatcher claimed does not exist.

  212. Biff says:
    @mark tapley

    In Webster’s dictionary definition of ‘Troll’(noun:
    a person who posts inflammatory, inappropriate, controversial, or polarizing messages online for the purpose of cultivating animosity, upsetting others, or provoking a response.) it should be followed by ‘example’: mark tapley

    • Agree: d dan, Godfree Roberts
  213. Anonymous[261] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Americans must brace themselves for the *certainty* that typical earnings per hour, for a whole host of occupations, whether manual or non manual, in China will surpass those prevailing in the USA in the near future.
    Your children and grandchildren will live in such a world.

  214. xcd says:
    @ChineseMom

    Many no longer own farmland. They gave it up in exchange for one or more homes – of good quality – in the nearest town that may itself be new. This was a part of the policies of urbanisation and raising incomes: old news.

    Returning to one’s village had nothing to do with tackling covid. As we all know, the government even forbade the annual return home for CNY. The success came from (a) quick and thorough response – even excessive due to the lack of knowledge at that stage (b) preventing profteering – exactly what you would expect in an “un-free market”.

  215. @Ron Unz

    There was always “bad weather” and a failed harvest in the in Mao’s catastrophic Great Leap Forward, just like in the workers paradise of Russia where the collective farms were perennial failures. Only constant and massive agricultural, industrial and financial aid from the U.S. kept the USSR from total collapse from beginning to end. Mao’s army of thugs, like the Zionist “Freedom Fighters” we hire for in the Middle East were installed and also required huge amounts of aid from Washington.

    The CIA like its domestic counterpart, the totally corrupt and discredited FBI are merely operatives for the criminal Zionist syndicate like Mao’s Red Guard or the Soviet Cheka. As the facade of the powerful Soviets began to crumble (the thesis-antithesis) where we were constantly told how powerful the communists were and Nixon’s handler, Kissinger and the MSM was always reminding us that we had to get the best deal we could when dealing with the formidable Soviet Union, the Eastern satellites could no longer be controlled and the rotten facade was finally allowed to collapse while the venerable CIA cover up squad could only say “we never saw it coming.” The transparent lies of Godfree and the “we love China” supporters are cheering the same type of manufactured entity as the artificially created USSR. China will be used by the Zionists further down the road.

  216. xcd says:
    @vot tak

    In private finance, the main activity is transferring or transforming existing assets, about 80% of which are real estate. – Prof. Michael Hudson, 2016

    IOW, homes and the loans for them constitute yet another “free market” to rig and exploit.

  217. xcd says:
    @vot tak

    Even the “scriptures” most of these people claim to abide by prescribes collectivism – where it does not prescibe abject submission to the capitalist usurer.

  218. xcd says:
    @Erebus

    Godfree Roberts had a detailed article here exposing the “great famine”.

  219. Ron Unz says:
    @Deep Thought

    Thanks for the link:

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1728-4457.2011.00398.x

    The article is by eminent economic historian Cormac Grada, and seems a very solid and detailed academic review of the Dikotter book on the Great Leap Forward, which he regards as rather trashy, loose with facts and propagandistic. Although I haven’t read the book in question, the analysis is quite persuasive, and I’d strongly recommend it to other commenters.

    However, although he doesn’t directly focus on the Yang book, perhaps because it had not yet been translated into English, he does seem to have a much higher opinion of it, so piece actually tends to somewhat confirm my own judgment.

    Incidentally, he also emphasizes how the central Chinese government remained almost completely unaware of the massive rural disaster for much of the GLP period, which was also Yang’s conclusion. If the top leadership of the CCP wasn’t aware of scale of the horrific famine, I’m really not surprised that those 1961 and 1962 CIA reports mentioned above were similarly oblivious.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  220. Erebus says:
    @Ron Unz

    My read of Grada’s critique is that he trashes MGF completely, albeit in an understated, academically polite manner. He is/was, after all “a research scholar at the Center for Health and Wellbeing, Woodrow Wilson School, Princeton University.” and is obliged to maintain decorum.

    Nevertheless, he closes the main part of his critique with:

    On page after page of MGF, numbers on topics ranging from rats killed in Shanghai to illegal immigration to Hong Kong are produced with no discussion of their reliability or provenance: all that seems to matter is that they are ”big.”

    and, at the very end…

    The success of MGF should not deter other historians from writing calmer and more nuanced books that worry more about getting the numbers right and pay due attention to geography and history.

    Though we can all hope it doesn’t, there’s no mistaking Grada’s tone. It is as dismissive as academic propriety allows.

    I guess as an economic historian, he wouldn’t necessarily been paying much to non-economic matters, but I couldn’t help but note that he threw in this gratuitous little hat tip to orthodoxy:

    Few of the countless deaths in 1959–61 were sanctioned or ordained from the center in the sense that deaths in the Soviet Gulag or the Nazi gas chambers were.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  221. Ron Unz says:
    @Erebus

    My read of Grada’s critique is that he trashes MGF completely, albeit in an understated, academically polite manner…there’s no mistaking Grada’s tone. It is as dismissive as academic propriety allows.

    Sure. Or as I put it in less polite language, “the Dikotter book on the Great Leap Forward, which he regards as rather trashy, loose with facts and propagandistic.”

    • Replies: @Erebus
  222. Rdm says:
    @d dan

    ChineseMom is a self-taught pseudo intellectual.

    Hey ChineseMom, do you remember BigWoWo?

  223. Erebus says:
    @Ron Unz

    My 2nd blockquote, translated from academese is basically, “I hope a more competent and honest historian displaces this book from its “most popular” status”.”

    I sorta expected your “trashy, loose with facts and propagandistic.”, but I didn’t expect Grada to give voice to a wish that MGF would go away. He’s right, of course. MGF discredits the whole genre.

    As Grada spoke so hopefully of Tombstone, I hoped to find he’d also reviewed Yang’s book in the intervening years. No luck, which probably tells us something as well.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  224. Ron Unz says:
    @Erebus

    I sorta expected your “trashy, loose with facts and propagandistic.”, but I didn’t expect Grada to give voice to a wish that MGF would go away. He’s right, of course. MGF discredits the whole genre.

    Sure, that’s a good point.

    But Grada seemed to have a favorable opinion of Yang’s book. Although no English translation was yet available, I’d assume he’d probably heard good things from some of his colleagues who had read the Chinese version, which tends to somewhat strengthen my own appraisal.

    I really don’t understand why you won’t at least just spend a couple of hours reading Yang’s 40 page chapter on the various demographic estimates, and deciding for yourself how his analysis stacks up against that of Prof. Sun or other critics.

    I think you might have once said that you live in China, so perhaps it’s difficult for you to buy a copy on Amazon. But there are apparently lots of website where you can just set up a free account with an email, and then read or download a PDF. Are they somehow blocked in the PRC?

    https://all-med.net/pdf/tombstone-the-great-chinese-famine-1958-1962/

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