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China suffered through the H1N1 coronavirus epidemic in 2008 largely because the CDC took 6 months to identify it and, as a result, 300,000 died prematurely. SARS (774 deaths) was the clincher. They created a hair-trigger alarm system, mandated post-mortem pneumonia DNA testing nationwide, and promoted the CDC head, Dr. George F. Gao[1]Dr. Gao has made contributions to the study of inter-species pathogen transmission. He organized the first World Flu Day on November 1 2018, commemorating the centenary of the Spanish flu. It was also the 15-year commemoration of the severe acute respiratory syndrome outbreak, SARS, which led to China prioritising investment in the public health system. He is a virologist and immunologist. He has served as Director of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention since 2017 and Dean of the Savaid Medical School of the University of Chinese Academy of Sciences since 2015. Gao is an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences and The World Academy of Sciences, as well as a foreign associate of the US National Academy of Sciences and the US National Academy of Medicine. He was awarded the TWAS Prize in Medical Science in 2012 and the Nikkei Asia Prize in 2014., to Demigod.

Their Covid-19 emergency has now passed and must give Dr. Gao a B+ because, though his system contained a potential epidemic it suffered from a weakness: local politicians could delay, (but not stop) the alarm sounding. Doubtless for sound bureaucratic reasons, Wuhan officials delayed notifying Beijing for a few weeks but, after Beijing pried the information from the Wuhan Director of Public Health[2]They fired him the next day. Henceforth local politicians will be out of the loop and everyone will have a CDC hotline number., the system swung into action, everyone pitched in, and they literally killed it.

National cohesion and coordination were amazing, thanks to the Communist Party. They coordinated everything and filled all the gaps, no questions asked. Ninety percent of the frontline volunteer medical staff–of whom 18 died–were Party members sworn to ‘bear the people’s burden first and enjoy their pleasures last.’ Zhang Wenhong, a prominent Party member and Director of the Department of Infectious Diseases at Shanghai’s Huashan Hospital, became a local hero for his pep-talk to Party members [emphasis added]:

The first-aid team put themselves in great danger. They are tired and need to rest. We shouldn’t take advantage of good people. From now on, I’ll replace all the frontline medics with Party members from different sectors. When we joined the Party, we vowed that we would always prioritize people’s interests and press forward in the face of difficulties. This is the moment we live up to the pledge. All CPC members must rush to the front line. I don’t care what you were actually thinking when you joined the party. Now it’s time to live up to what you promised. I don’t care if you personally agree or not: it’s non-negotiable.

Altogether, 40,000 volunteers self-organized and showed up to help Wuhan.

Now the storm has passed and China has become the world’s Santa Claus, giving out goodies and turning a potential disaster into a real triumph.

Nothing would make that triumph sweeter than the public revelation that our CDC knew about Covid-19 last September. Like many national public health systems, the CDC ignores novel Coronaviruses every ‘flu season and blends their effects in with the immense, fluctuating number of annual deaths. That’s why, back in 2008, the CDC took so long to detect H1N1: they weren’t looking.

Same old, same old until January 1, when China identified a nasty Coronavirus and the US went ballistic and blamed them for starting a pandemic and insulted their culture and their government.

But they handled Covid-19 so competently that they won the world’s admiration[3]Dr Bruce Aylward, head of the WHO International Mission said,“In the face of a previously unknown disease, China has taken one of the most ancient approaches for infectious disease control and rolled out probably the most ambitious, and I would say, agile and aggressive disease containment effort in history. China took old-fashioned measures, like the national approach to hand-washing, the mask-wearing, the social distancing, the universal temperature monitoring. But then very quickly, as it started to evolve, the response started to change . . . So they refined the strategy as they moved forward, and this is an important aspect as we look to how we might use this going forward. WHO has been here from the start of this crisis, an epidemic, working every single day with the government of China… WHO was here from the beginning and never left. What’s different about this mission is it’s complementing a lot of other external experts.” and made our attacks on them look mean, but no big deal. People will forget about the huge fuss we made and just remember vaguely that China is filthy and its leaders are liars. Except for two things:

  1. Their society’s health policies are more compassionate than ours, as older readers will realize. They have always placed a higher societal value on eighty year-olds than we do. So when they were threatened with premature, painful deaths, they put their entire economy on hold for two months and cooperatively saved their parents and grandparents, to worldwide applause (at least from my age-group). Now China is competing to have the lowest per capita Covid-19 death rate of any major country.
  2. The world suspected that Covid-19 was circulating outside China last year when they recalled this: First Vaping Death Reported by USA Health Officials. August 2019, “Amid the lack of information, investigators scrambled to find shared links to the respiratory problems. Officials said earlier this week that many patients, most of whom were adolescents or young adults, had described difficulty breathing, chest pain, vomiting and fatigue.” Covid-19 symptoms. If that’s too speculative, here’s what NPR turned up: Other Countries can Learn Important Lessons from Italy, says Dr. Giuseppe Remuzzi, co-author of a recent paper in The Lancet about the country’s dire situation. The takeaways include how to swiftly convert a general hospital into a coronavirus care unit with specially trained doctors and nurses. “We had dermatologists, eye doctors, pathologists, learning how to assist a person with a ventilator,” Remuzzi says. Some question why Italy was caught off guard when the virus outbreak was revealed on Feb. 21. Remuzzi says he is now hearing information about it from general practitioners. “They remember having seen very strange pneumonia, very severe, particularly in old people in December and even November. This means that the virus was circulating, at least in northern Lombardy before we were aware of this outbreak occurring in China.

The WHO has not requested the data from CDC because the US has been attacking the WHO daily and Dr. Ghebreyesus knows the US can get him fired. But Dr. Ghebreyesus and Dr. Gao and every Health Minister on earth know the truth. Dr. Remuzzi’s Italian DNA is traceable. So is China’s. The world is very good at tracing Coronaviruses back through their generations and China has done so and now it seems the shit is about to hit the fan.

Here’s what happened in Chinese cyberspace today (Thomas Hon Wing Polin, Facebook):

WUHAN OUTBREAK: CHINA DEMANDS AN HONEST ACCOUNTING

  • It is now virtually certain that COVID-19 was brought to Wuhan by American troops taking part in the city’s World Military Games last Oct. 18-27.
  • The 300-strong US contingent stayed 300 meters from the Huanan Seafood Market where China’s outbreak began (see map below) at the Wuhan Oriental Hotel.
  • Five of the US troops developed a fever on Oct. 25 and were taken to an infectious-diseases hospital for treatment.
  • 42 employees of the Oriental Hotel were diagnosed with COVID-19, becoming the first cluster in Wuhan. At the time only 7 people from the market had been thus diagnosed (and treated before the hotel staff). All 7 had contact with the 42 from the hotel. From this source, the virus spread to the rest of China.
  • The American Military Games team trained at a location near Fort Detrick, the military’s viral lab closed down by the CDC in July for various deficiencies.
  • The big question now is whether the transmission was planned, or accidental.
  • Chinese authorities are awaiting an explanation from US authorities.
  • A few days ago, Mike Pompeo phoned Yang Jiechi, Chinese State Councillor for Foreign Affairs. Pompeo’s counterpart is actually Foreign Minister Wang Yi and Yang is Wang’s boss, so Pompeo wanted to talk about something urgent and important.
  • Pompeo wanted the Chinese not to publicize what they had found.
  • Yang’s reply: “We await your solemn explanation, especially about Patient Zero.”

China’s leaders have long suspected US military involvement in the Wuhan outbreak but were determined to stop the disease before pursuing the Americans for an honest accounting.

Notes

[1] Dr. Gao has made contributions to the study of inter-species pathogen transmission. He organized the first World Flu Day on November 1 2018, commemorating the centenary of the Spanish flu. It was also the 15-year commemoration of the severe acute respiratory syndrome outbreak, SARS, which led to China prioritising investment in the public health system. He is a virologist and immunologist. He has served as Director of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention since 2017 and Dean of the Savaid Medical School of the University of Chinese Academy of Sciences since 2015. Gao is an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences and The World Academy of Sciences, as well as a foreign associate of the US National Academy of Sciences and the US National Academy of Medicine. He was awarded the TWAS Prize in Medical Science in 2012 and the Nikkei Asia Prize in 2014.

[2] They fired him the next day. Henceforth local politicians will be out of the loop and everyone will have a CDC hotline number.

[3] Dr Bruce Aylward, head of the WHO International Mission said,“In the face of a previously unknown disease, China has taken one of the most ancient approaches for infectious disease control and rolled out probably the most ambitious, and I would say, agile and aggressive disease containment effort in history. China took old-fashioned measures, like the national approach to hand-washing, the mask-wearing, the social distancing, the universal temperature monitoring. But then very quickly, as it started to evolve, the response started to change . . . So they refined the strategy as they moved forward, and this is an important aspect as we look to how we might use this going forward. WHO has been here from the start of this crisis, an epidemic, working every single day with the government of China… WHO was here from the beginning and never left. What’s different about this mission is it’s complementing a lot of other external experts.”

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: American Military, China, Coronavirus, Disease 
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  1. Since this was published, Ron has queried me on the dates and here is what I came up with:

    It has been spreading for the same amount of time in both China and the US but China has a detection system for novel Coronaviruses and we don’t.

    If it started October 12 in the US it had time to incubate, spread to Lombardy, and infect Wuhan hotel workers on October 27, during the Military Games (i.e., almost November).

    It killed 3200 there and they noticed and got on it.

    We didn’t notice when it killed 3200 here because we forbade testing until early March*. The CDC planned to bury our 3200 in the stats for a bad ‘flu season (which this is) as it always does.

    Then, when China reported the outbreak there, instead of saying nothing they blamed China for causing it– the kind of stupidity (like starting a trade war with the world’s biggest economy when our economy was already shaky) the White House specializes in.

    If we begin a proper national testing program like China’s–and signs are that we won’t–total ‘flu/Coronavirus deaths will match our worst season in 40 years: January 6, 2020: Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said while it’s impossible to predict how the flu will play out, the season so far is on track to be as severe as the 2017-2018 flu season, which was the deadliest in more than four decades, according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.” The initial indicators indicate this is not going to be a good season — this is going to be a bad season,” Fauci said.

    If only we’d kept our mouths shut…

    * https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-delays.html

  2. “It is now virtually certain that COVID-19 was brought to Wuhan by American troops taking part in the city’s World Military Games last Oct. 18-27.”
    virtually certain or . . . speculated by some

    • Agree: eah, By-tor, Irish Savant
    • Replies: @padre
  3. onebornfree says: • Website

    “National cohesion and coordination were amazing, thanks to the Communist Party. They coordinated everything and filled all the gaps, no questions asked.”

    You fully indoctrinated , naive, commie/government-loving idiot, you. You and the rest of your slave-minded commie sheep here and elsewhere make me want to puke 🤮. Your idiotic , slave-minded pro-state propaganda disgusts me. All of you , please, just fuck off back to China where you all belong, if you ain’t already there. Fuck you all, and fuck the Chinese government and all its Coronavirus so-called “solutions”.

    “Governments don’t want a population capable of critical thinking, they want obedient workers, people just smart enough to run the machines and just dumb enough to passively accept their situation.You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own, and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear.” George Carlin

    “Any real state of fear will bring panic, and once panic is the prevailing attitude of society at large, the herd seeks safety at all cost. Seeking safety under these circumstances allows for tyranny by the ruling class, and when the restrictive consequences of that tyranny are in place, escape from mass servitude is almost impossible to achieve. It must be understood that decisions made under stress due to fear end with a loss of freedom, and when freedom is compromised, what is left is slavery.” GaryD. Barnett

    No regards, onebornfree

  4. anon[488] • Disclaimer says:

    It started way before October. The bullshit induced moral panic over pot-vaping I mean illness spiked in August.

    https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/severe-lung-disease.html

    And this commenter got it before that. With no vaping of anything. I don’t get anything. So did xymph. It was persistent and bad but fortunately pneumonia and fibrosis did not ensue. And Lola Short was not the first fake flu death, either. CDC emergency response is classified in part because they were testing for it novel coronavirus along.

    EVALI my ass, that was CIA OPSEC.

    • Replies: @Sasha
    , @SolontoCroesus
  5. An amazing and truly mind-blowing article, hopefully, it will not fall into the memory hole or be ‘accidentally’ erased. It reveals the ugly little wizard hiding behind the American flag.

  6. @onebornfree

    Says the drooling idiot who never leaves his basement. Don’t forget your MAGA hat!

    • Agree: Realist, Sasha, Cyndy
  7. Billy Bob says:
    @onebornfree

    It’s amazing how propaganda can turn otherwise thoughtful and intelligent folks into deranged lunatics when it comes to certain issues. The cradle to grave anti-communist indoctrination which we have all been exposed to is nowhere better displayed than in this screed. What an anti-intellectual and pathetically misguided emotional outburst. If the author was slightly more sane he would have been too ashamed to post his screed for fear everyone would see just how little of his mind is left.

  8. Notice. US soldiers introduced it to China. Not a speculation. A fact.

    Of course it’s a fact. Not even debatable.

    • Replies: @WJ
  9. Anonymous[112] • Disclaimer says:

    This is why Harvard chemistry chair Prof. Charles Lieber got rolled up with trumped up charges when this outbreak hit the news.

    Lieber’s specialty was in virus detection tech. His work in Wuhan enabled China to detect an accidental or intentional virus spread by the US relatively early. China’s response to the outbreak alerted the US to this fact, so the feds brought the hammer down on Lieber.

    https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2004/10/sensor-detects-identifies-single-viruses/

    Two of the world’s biggest threats may someday be reduced by wires thousands of times thinner than a hair but capable of detecting a single virus. The specter of worldwide viral epidemics is always with us, so detecting them quickly offers the possibility of saving thousands of lives. The pathogens also can be stealthy biological weapons, making their positive detection a vital national defense requirement.

    “We want to find a single virus before it finds you,” says Charles Lieber, Hyman Professor of Chemistry at Harvard University. Tests recently completed in his laboratory show that these unimaginably thin nanowires can sense and distinguish between viruses that cause flu, measles, and eye infections. Lieber believes future versions will be able to spot HIV, Ebola, SARS, West Nile, hepatitis, bird flu, and other dangerous viruses.

    “Viruses are among the most important causes of human disease and are of increasing concern as agents for bioterrorism,” Lieber says. “Our work shows that nanoscale silicon wires can be configured as detectors that turn on or off in the presence of a single virus particle. Such detectors could be fashioned into arrays capable of sensing thousands of different viruses, ushering in a new era for diagnoses, biosafety, and quick response to viral outbreaks.”

  10. Iris says:

    Many thanks to the author for yet another great article.

    Assuming the best case scenario, that it was only incompetence that made the US miss the outbreak of a pandemic on its soil, a fair conclusion is that the Chinese government has more care and more respect for its people than so-called “democracies”. Unlike others, China took the pain to identify and contain an epidemic that would have otherwise taken a high toll on the elderly, the vulnerable and health personnel.

    Not everyone believes in the best case scenario, however.
    From CGTN Chinese website, this “1o Questions to the US government ” article asks in particular:

    – As the ground glass opacity (white patches) can be easily seen in CT scans of the lungs of patients with the novel coronavirus-infected pneumonia, it should have been an easy thing to separate the cases of COVID-19 and H1N1 flu. But why were there so many misdiagnoses?

    – Why are there new [US] biological laboratories in Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan? Are those labs for biochemical warfare?

    https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-03-19/10-questions-for-the-U-S-Where-did-the-novel-coronavirus-come-from–OZrgRTSZfa/index.html

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  11. Anon[299] • Disclaimer says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    This is a very good video on the dates:

    • Agree: Quintus
    • Thanks: Erebus, antitermite
    • Replies: @Herald
  12. @Anonymous

    Thank you for that remarkable quote.

    The FBI’s frantic actions and announcements are beginning to make sense.

  13. Realist says:
    @onebornfree

    You and the rest of your slave-minded commie sheep here and elsewhere make me want to puke 🤮.

    Do it…maybe you’ll choke.

    You should read the article I presented in comment #1…perhaps it would save you from more dumbass comments like the one you offered.

    • Replies: @BrokenheartAmerican
  14. “Nothing would make that triumph sweeter than the public revelation that our CDC knew about Covid-19 last September. “

    Take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCEM5dPZP8k

    • Thanks: Curmudgeon
  15. Ron Unz says:

    Well, unless I’m missing something huge, the hypothesis advanced in this article makes absolutely no sense at all…

    Apparently, the claim is that Coronavirus began circulating in the US as early as August 2019, but the results were misclassified as “vaping deaths.”

    This seems totally nuts to me. As we know from China, Northern Italy, and most recently New York, Coronavirus is *extremely* contagious. In the absence of severe government restrictions, the number of infected individuals tends to double every 3-5 days, thereby increasing by a factor of something like 100-1000x per month. And it seems to kill at least 1% of the population, perhaps rising to 5% when the health system collapses under the strain of the 20% who require hospitalization.

    If the Coronavirus had been circulating in America in August 2019, we probably would have seen a million dead Americans by the end of the year, and I don’t remember reading about it in my morning newspapers.

    But let’s ignore that part of the article, and go to the next point, namely that several of the American military officers visiting Wuhan in October 2019 had *accidently* been infected in the US, and thereby spread it to China.

    America has a population of something like 330 million, and if so few Americans were infected in October 2019 that nobody here noticed, the likelihood that tiny handful would happen to include the ones visiting Wuhan is nil.

    Even in such extraordinarily implausible circumstances, that would mean the infection took off in the US at least as early as it did in Wuhan. So the exponential growth in the two countries would have been roughly similar, and nobody would have paid attention to the Wuhan disaster because so many Americans would have already been dying.

    This whole theory is so ridiculous and illogical, I strongly suspect it’s just (very poor quality) PRC propaganda, being promoted for obvious political reasons.

    Since Trump and his friends are denouncing China, the Chinese leaders wish to respond with a theory that makes America look bad and blames the Coronavirus outbreak on the US. But they’re very reluctant to point to the pretty strong circumstantial evidence that the virus outbreak was a biowarfare attack on China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons. After all, that would be difficult to prove and also would be an act of war. Anyway, given the total incompetence of the US government, the Coronavirus is about to inflict enormous punishment upon the population and economy of the US, whether we were actually guilty or not.

    So instead they concocted this ridiculous “Oops!” theory just so that they have something to say in response to Trump’s ridiculous charges.

    Now that’s perfectly fine, and I understand what they’re doing and why. But I’m not a PRC propagandist so I don’t have to pretend that their theory makes any sense at all.

  16. Iris says:
    @Ron Unz

    As we know from China, Northern Italy, and most recently New York, Coronavirus is *extremely* contagious. In the absence of severe government restrictions, the number of infected individuals tends to double ever 3-5 days

    As of the 5th March, where no stringent health measures had been implemented yet except in Asia, the number of infected people globally was around 100,000 and was doubling every 6 days. At the same time, and by implementing strict containment, China had managed to extend the doubling rate to two months.

    Considering that the Jul 2019 lab breach of containment has happened in a unique location, involving limited personnel, and was found out, is it not possible that the US authorities had locally applied the same measures China did, almost quenching a nascent epidemic and postponing its outbreak?

    America has a population of something like 330 million, and if so few Americans were infected in October 2019 that nobody here noticed, the likelihood that tiny handful would happen to include the ones visiting Wuhan is nil.

    Just before major competitions, sports team gather for extensive training and “friendly” games; it is always the case. It is possible that one or two American individuals only were infected, then contaminated their colleagues during training just prior to the games, thus making the cluster that brought the virus to Wuhan only a little time before the games.

    So instead they concocted this ridiculous “Oops!” theory just so that they have something to say in response to Trump’s ridiculous charges.

    President Trump’s charges are indeed ridiculous: he pretends that his country is the only one on Earth not to have received the epidemic warnings issued by China, while all other nations have been applying more or less strict containment measures for months.

    These assumptions are for an accidental contamination.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts, Vidi
  17. clip says:
    @Ron Unz

    Your analysis assumes this specific virus is not a bioweapon. The data so far shows that the Chinese, Iranians, and Italians are highly susceptible to this virus. All three nations have defied American imperial domination in some way. Thus, they were probably attacked with this (possible) race targeting bioweapon. The virus in Iran and China were sequenced and found to be different – suggesting that a race specific virus was engineered to each target group. Italians and Iranians are very close genetically speaking, which partly explains their high death rates.

    The (possible) race targeting nature of the bioweapon would help partly explain why the virus had a much weaker effect in America despite being leaked here months earlier.

  18. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ron Unz

    As we know from China, Northern Italy, and most recently New York, Coronavirus is *extremely* contagious. In the absence of severe government restrictions, the number of infected individuals tends to double ever 3-5 days, thereby increasing by a factor of something like 100-1000x per month. And it seems to kill at least 1% of the population, perhaps rising to 5% when the health system collapses under the strain of the 20% who require hospitalization

    (Allow me to play Devil’s Advocate):

    There is also the possibility that the “doubling period” was not initially (in the early stages, in the U.S.) so short as every 5 or even 3 days when there were very few initial cases, or indeed, only ONE (“Patient Zero”) initial case.

    That is to say, unless and until a minimum critical mass of infected is reached, the rate of spread of Detrick-19 virus could be significantly slower. INITIALLY.

    (A 5-day doubling period would be a rough compounded increase of 15% a day, while a 3-day doubling period would be a rough compounded increase of 26% a day – these are obviously very fast).

    What if, for reasons of the patterns and frequencies of travel and typical interaction and circulation of individuals in society (all the usual activities – driving on the freeway, playing video games, fixing up his own house etc.), as long as only a few individuals were sick, the doubling period was as long as 30, even 45 days?

    It is possible the infected “Patient Zero from Ft. Detrick” simply had little opportunity to interact with others for some time (for example, he might have been someone who spent time alone, liked to read, a bit of a shut-in, who knows?)

    You start with only one person accidentally exposed and sick. It COULD theoretically have taken 2 weeks to a month to infect a second, and another 2 weeks/1 month for those 2 infected people to become 4 infected. And so forth.

    UNTIL you hit say 100 or more people infected and interacting in society all at once, at which time an inflection point is reached, and the daily rate of increase trends sharply upward.

    (Devil’s Advocate mode off.)

    OTOH,

    IF, in fact, a critical mass of infected people need to be present for the Detrick-19 Virus to spread quickly, then, I have to admit, it does point rather heavily in the direction of a deliberate (vice accidental) effort to spread the virus in Wuhan, China and Qom, Iran – in other words, NOT AN ACCIDENT, but a premeditated act of war by the United States against China and Iran.

    To which reasonable conclusion, quite a few of our countrymen have come.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  19. A Facebook group is not exactly an authoritative source of information.

    If any of the suggestions made in the Facebook post are accurate, I hope we will hear more about them from more trustworthy sources.

    The fact that 300 Americans took part in the World Military Games in Wuhan in 2019 obscures the fact that 9,308 athletes from 110 countries took part.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Military_World_Games

  20. Stoneman says:

    The facts presented by Dr. Roberts have checked out. They provide an alternative theory for the origin of the SARS-2 Coronavirus. It is after all only a theory, same as the theory that it came from Wuhan bats. We’ll probably never know unless everyone works together on the investigation. Even then, we won’t be absolutely sure. While both sides like to say everything is on the table, cooperation apparently is not included. I think China is tired of getting insulted and attacked by morons, which is understandable. I myself do enjoy the freedom to lie and insult and be ignorant, and the Chinese wil have to pry that away from my cold dead fingers.

    As for Ron’s opinion on the contagious character of the current strains, we should remember that viruses mutate very frequently. Therefore the early Coronavirus strain that first infected humans may have survived in the hosts for long periods without causing harm or readily transmitted to another human. Eventually, a mutuation creates the protein spikes that lets the virus grab onto human cells (see linked scientific article below), especially bronchial and pulmonary epithelial cells. Then all hell breaks loose. I would like to make Dr. Roberts’s theory a bit more complete by adding that the SARS-2 Coronavirus likely originated from a bat. It is known to be studied in Fort Detrick ostensibly for scientific purposes. On this, America is not alone. Many governments and research institutes know that this is coming and have been studying on ways to defend humans from the next outbreak. The only thing that seems a little suspicious is why Fort Detrick? Googling Fort Detrick and MK Ultra will give us some background.

    In any case, something happened at the Fort Detrick lab that caused the CDC to shut it down last July. Humans may have been contaminated (it’s possible but we won’t know unless Fort Detrick work is declassified). Since the Coronavirus did not have that protein spike for attaching to human cells, the infected persons did not get sick, and there was minimal or no transmission. To the rest of the world, nothing happened. The next significant mutation may allow the virus to become transmitted to another human host, similar to how even today over eighty percent of the infected are asymptomatic or experience only slight flu symptoms. People would think that it’s just a cold. The next big mutation probably occurred shortly before or after the GIs arrived at Wuhan. The protein spikes are now much better adapted to attaching to human pulmonary epithelial cells, which causes pneumonia and since there is no defence against this new virus, the result could be deadly. Subsequent mutations may have further adapted SAR-2 to human cells making the virus very contagious among humans. This is of course, still a theory, but hopefully answers Ron’s concern that Dr. Roberts is a propagandist for the CCP. At the end of the day, we all believe what we want to believe. I believe I’ll have a beer.

    https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-not-human-made-in-lab.html

    • Replies: @occupatio
    , @MarkU
    , @Nils
  21. @Ron Unz

    Let’s dispense with the vaping deaths and other tantalizing possibilities and simplify the hypothesis thus:

    1. Patient Zero, an infected US serviceman*, went to Wuhan with the US Military Games team.

    2. He infected four of his teammates and all five were hospitalized in Wuhan with Covid-19. If that is the case then the Chinese have their medical records. If Mike Pompeo is begging it’s because he has no alternative.

    3. The Army should have quarantined the team** after they returned to the US on December 1, so our outbreak may have started late December, if other returned team members tested positive.

    4. A Chinese arrived from Wuhan Jan. 19 and asked to be tested for the coronavirus China had identified. He tested positive and our media call him ‘Patient Zero’ but..

    5. We don’t know when our domestic outbreak started because the CDC discouraged testing from January until early March despite having received the WHO’s Coronavirus warning January 1.

    5. CDC Director Robert Redfield recently admitted that some deaths previously attributed to ‘flu have been reclassified as Covid-19 after post-mortem DNA testing. I assume that at least one of those patients died in December since Dr. Redfield refused to reveal their dates.

    6. Right now the CDC is still refusing to share its data with the WHO or identify Patient Zero** to the American public–unprecedented behavior during a pandemic.

    ______________________________________________________
    *It doesn’t materially matter if he was infected while training near Ft. Detrick but, if he was, it helps explain the coverup.

    **Did some team members go on leave to Italy after the Games? USMAC makes that easy.

    ***The significance of finding Patient Zero is to determine the time of initial infection and then estimate the scope of transmission and epidemic scale. The second purpose is to find the intermediate host. If Patient Zero really is our hypothetical US serviceman and the CDC is lying about him, then Patient Zero assumes political significance, too.

  22. @Ron Unz

    In the absence of severe government restrictions, the number of infected individuals tends to double ever 3-5 days, thereby increasing by a factor of something like 100-1000x per month.

    That’s a misconception, Mr Unz.

    You’ve failed to notice Pynchon’s 3rd Proverb for Paranoids:

    If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.

    Everybody’s been encouraged to watch the wrong card – namely, ‘confirmed cases‘ – which is the number of people who have returned a positive test (on a test which is worse than a coin toss, as Zhuang et al have recently shown).

    .

    The obvious way to have low numbers of “confirmed cases”, is to administer very few tests.

    Zero tests = zero confirmed cases… regardless of what the actual number of infected is, or its rate of growth. That shows the weakness of using ‘confirmed cases’ as a basis for spread.

    ‘Confirmed cases’ is a low-information quantity, and I think it was chosen deliberately.

    ‘Not testing’ is what the US did – it was administering 1 test per million population as recently as early March.

    It’s obvious that failing (or refusing) to test, doesn’t stop the virus from spreading: the rate at which it actually spreads is independent of the rate at which tests are conducted.

    So while people weren’t being tested, the virus was doing what it does – at whatever rate it can achieve ‘in the wild’.

    Now…

    If Mr Roberts’ claims are correct and this particular coronavirus existed in a human-transmissible form as early as last September, then by March there will already have been a large ‘stock’ of infected people in the US and elsewhere, all of whom were untested. 5 months (near enough) of untrammeled spread at whatever rate this things spreads at (left for below), versus 2 months or so.

    And…

    Since this was – as the quote from Fauci indicates – a reasonably bad flu season, there will have been tens of thousands of people with a range of ‘flu like symptoms from October onwards. If Mr Roberts’ information is correct, some proportion of those will have been undetected coronavirus (they could never be ‘confirmed cases’ because nobody was being tested).

    Now…

    Those among the ill who were otherwise healthy, would have simply gotten over it (with the worst cases requiring time off work and bed rest). Before and after they would have simply gone about their business – infecting others.

    By the time testing was being implemented, there’s a very high likelihood that a very large proportion of them were entirely virus-free – making them undetected, undetectable, resolved cases. Contact tracking proceeding backwards from people who contracted coronavirus from them, would draw a blank (especially if the original carrier’s specific case had no symptoms).

    So…

    Depending on the actual start date (September 2019 vs January 2020), there are 2-6 months’ worth of infected that are sitting there untested at the time that testing begins.

    Some of these people will be in cohorts timed to have symptoms by March; some of them will have become very ill. These – and people in their downstream orbit – are the first cohort that was tested.

    And of course there are others downstream from the Sep-Mar ‘resolved’ cases; some of those having low- or no-symptoms, going about their daily lives, being undetected infectious.

    OK, so now we have some starting stock of infected and resolved as at the start of testing, and it’s a much bigger number than 1 (i.e., the starting value for the #ZOMFG!!_exponential curve).

    Now… start testing.

    People who were infected weeks ago by a slow-spreading virus, start getting detected as new ‘confirmed cases’.

    Ramp up testing #ZOMFG!!_exponentially!!! (which is roughly what has happened), and the ‘confirmed case’ numbers will also ramp up #ZOMFG!!_exponentially!!!.

    Mathematically, that could just mean that there is a constant proportion of the population who is infected.

    If the virus spread was accelerating, positive tests as a proportion of total tests would slope upwards.

    There’s no evidence of that, either cross-sectionally (i.e., across countries with different test numbers) or internally (as test counts increase in a given country).

    The exact opposite is happening – as more testing is happening, the ratio of confirmed cases to total tests is declining.

    The rate of growth of ‘confirmed cases’ won’t slow until much later, because of the existing ‘stock’ of infected.

    The stock of infected on the day that ‘confirmed case‘ #1 is detected, was absolutely, certainly, emphatically, irrefutably not 1.

    Later, the downside analogies of same phenomena will also give the false impression that control measures having an effect.

    This will give charlatans the bonus of being able to applaud each other and declare themselves and their flailings as the sine qua non of victory (the “Omaha Beach Effect‘).

    With a full-court media press behind them (because journalists are innumerate and gullible) this will, they hope, infect the minds of the Mass Man with the worst possible virus: the one that makes people believe that politicians and their apparatchiks are competent.

    Reference (on the terrible false-positive problem for the current test)

    Zhuang et al (2020), “Potential false-positive rate among the ‘asymptomatic infected individuals’ in close contacts of COVID-19 patients” (link is to English abstract)

    • Agree: Showmethereal
    • Thanks: RodW, TomSchmidt, antitermite
  23. Erratum says:

    In trying to debunk the hypothesis that COVID-19 was circulating before Q4, Unz assumes that the virus has a single immutable R0. That assumption does not hold if the virus is circulating in a new species for the first time. As old micro points out, a novel virus gains virulence as it adapts to its new host organism. And it did in fact mutate in the US, into four or five distinct strains. So you can’t just extrapolate and compare. Let’s not get like Caitlin Johnstone’s Republican RPCs and call unwelcome notions Chinese.

    Also, don’t forget, there were multiple introductions. There is no one patient zero. Contagion by multiple introductions is prima facie biological warfare.

  24. occupatio says:
    @Stoneman

    Godfree Roberts,

    The interview with Italy’s Dr. Remuzzi has been truncated in English-language media. He actually says the virus outbreaks were observed by doctors as early as OCTOBER, and not just November as reported.

    Interview, relevant part at 4:19 mark:

    A reporter asks Dr. Remuzzi about virus cases from Fall of 2019. Below is a translation:

    Dr. Remuzzi (at 4:19): “It is very true. Do you know what happened? Certain family doctors, who have the best on the ground information, at least the most attentive ones, have told me recently that they were seeing truly grave cases of pneumonia, which we had never seen before. These pneumonia cases had nothing to do with typical flu pneumonia, they were interstitial pneumonias, they had to do CT, radiography, [to diagnose it], and this was happening in October, November, December. So this virus has been around a long time.”

    This translation is from comment #111: https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/03/the-moa-week-in-review-open-thread-2020-22/comments/page/2/#comments

    So, in summary, Dr. Remuzzi not only says the cases occurred in October, but that multiple “family doctors, who have the best on-the-ground information” have observed the strange pneumonias at that time as well, and says explicitly that “this virus has been around a long time.”

  25. Sasha says:
    @anon

    There was a huge panic over “vaping” pneumonia here in Ottawa, Canada last August. I developed pneumonia at that exact same time (I don’t vape).I know exactly how and when I got it too – oral congress with a peeler’s not-so-private parts very late in her shift. I’m not a freaking coincidence theorist, and can certainly do rudimentary arithmetic. Then, the clusters of “vaping illness” around Ft. Detrick at the VERY SAME TIME… (youtube that) Anyone still thinking this is a pangolin plague isn’t bat-soup crazy (that’s far too generous an assessment) – they’re a brain-dead cretin that is destined to die of terminal stupidity (said the idiot pig!).

  26. anonimo11 says:
    @Ron Unz

    Your comment, while reasonable, could be proven wrong if the virus, due to heat, humidity, or vitamin D level of the population, is suppressed in late summer. Then the virus starts proliferating only in the Fall. Assuming it is vitamin D, the half life of the vitamin in the human body depends on diet (can be very long), but for most people it is of order a few weeks.

    Lombardy is extremely foggy in Fall, and they had a hospital crisis already in Dec. 2019, due to too many patients and not enough respirators. The interview with Prof. Remuzzi provides hard data. People have highest vit. D levels in late summer, and lowest right now (in the N. Hemisphere). This hypothesis would also explain the extremely low numbers in tropical countries (they typically do not get the flu either).

    If my point is correct, this epidemics should solve itself in early summer. Then you would have a consistent explanation for all facts…

  27. @occupatio

    Thank you.

    Surely someone has compared the Italian strain to the Chinese and the American?

    • Replies: @windjammer
  28. anonimo11 says:
    @occupatio

    Thanks for advertising my work Occupatio. Since I did that translation a bit on the fly I want to make some small corrections, highlighted in caps.

    It is very true. Do you know what happened? Certain family doctors, who have the best ANTENNAS IN THE TERRITORY, at least the most ABLE AND attentive ones, have told me recently that they were seeing grave cases of pneumonia, which we had never seen THE OTHER YEARS. These pneumonia cases had nothing to do with typical flu pneumonia, they were interstitial pneumonias, they had to do CT, radiography, [to diagnose it], and this was SEEN in October, November, December. So this virus has been CIRCULATING a long time.”

  29. Ron Unz says:
    @clip

    Your analysis assumes this specific virus is not a bioweapon…The (possible) race targeting nature of the bioweapon would help partly explain why the virus had a much weaker effect in America despite being leaked here months earlier.

    No. Back a month or two ago, I was indeed quite suspicious that the Coronavirus might be a bioweapon racially-targeting East Asians, and we ran several articles by Lance Welton arguing that case. But the facts proved otherwise, including the very rapid spread and growing death toll in Italy and most recently in New York. Over the next few months, I fear that hundreds of thousands of Americans may die, and the overwhelming majority are likely to be Caucasian.

    • Replies: @Will
  30. Tor597 says:
    @Ron Unz

    Ron,

    I think that can best be explained by the different types of Corona Virus strains. The S Type is a more mild form of the disease.

    Interestingly enough, vaping increases your chance of becoming severe 14 times.

    https://mol.im/a/8136069

    So the mild strain could have been in circulation causing a moderately increased death rate that many have observed this flu season with certain spikes of deaths due people vaping.

    There are many anecdotal accounts of people suspecting Corona Virus last year in the above tweet.

    What happened in China, Italy, and Iran I believe was the result of the more virulent L strain.

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/covid-usa-targeting-italy-and-south-korea/5707042

    The above link goes over the concept of super spreaders. These were people that led to explosive outbreaks that are more characteristic of the parabolic pandemic you describe.

    I believe that the US may have seeded the S strain in America first in order to try and increase herd immunity to the public without needing vaccinations.

    Once the S strain was seeded in America, the L strain was released in China and Iran. It spread to S. Korea and Italy.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @johnm33
    , @TT
  31. Ron Unz says:
    @Anonymous

    This is why Harvard chemistry chair Prof. Charles Lieber got rolled up with trumped up charges when this outbreak hit the news.

    Yes, I’ve repeatedly pointed to the *extremely* suspicious timing of Lieber’s arrest:

    https://www.unz.com/article/how-to-yellow-cake-a-tragedy/#comment-3715020

  32. Ron Unz says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    1. Patient Zero, an infected US serviceman*, went to Wuhan with the US Military Games team.

    Under your reconstruction, let’s ask ourselves how many Americans were infected when that alleged serviceman carried the Coronavirus to Wuhan in October.

    Maybe he was the only infected individual in America and by purest chance, he happened to take the virus to China, launch the disease there, then avoid infecting any other American when he returned home. But this is *exceptionally* implausible.

    The other possibility is that large numbers of Americans were already infected in October, and one or more of them happened to go to China. But if that were true, there would have been a massive outbreak in the US even before the one in China, so the theory makes absolutely no sense.

    So maybe the virus was harmless in the US or not easily contagious. But when it got to China, it suddenly decided to randomly mutate into the extremely contagious and deadly form we now have. But that’s also *exceptionally* implausible.

    I’ve never been particularly impressed with PRC propaganda, but this propaganda story is so ridiculously bad and implausible I can’t see how even a child could believe it.

  33. Ron Unz says:
    @Tor597

    I believe that the US may have seeded the S strain in America first in order to try and increase herd immunity to the public without needing vaccinations.

    Once the S strain was seeded in America, the L strain was released in China and Iran. It spread to S. Korea and Italy.

    Well, my impression is that the existence of this sharp S strain/L strain difference is still under dispute. But leaving that aside, your theory is that the Deep State Neocons (or whomever) deliberately attacked China and Iran with the deadly form of the Coronavirus, which seems a perfectly plausible hypothesis to me.

    But I’m extremely skeptical that they had earlier released a different form of Coronavirus to spread around the US to protect us from the other form. Anyway, if that was their “clever plan,” it clearly didn’t work, and hundreds of thousands of Americans may soon pay with their lives for such total incompetence.

    Since your theory relies upon the total incompetence of the purported biowarfare attackers, it’s really pretty similar to the one I’ve been suggesting.

    • Replies: @Tor597
  34. jjc says:

    The military games thesis offers two pieces of information – five US team members hospitalized and forty-two hotel employees first infectious cluster – which should be relatively easy to ascertain independently. The thesis is certainly viable if both can be confirmed.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  35. @Ron Unz

    I’m a minimalist.

    I’ll settle for one of 300 guys training near Ft. Detrick getting infected on the last day of training. Pure bad luck but plausible enough to get us to where we are today and to explain our government’s utterly weird, paranoid behavior–a factor which must be explained, too.

    Incidentally, Ft. Detrick developed the bioweapons the US used on China in 1951. Ah, those were good times!

    I have always been impressed by how well the PRC’s words match their deeds.

    Of course, if you think that the words our media put into their government’s mouth (when, for example, summarizing a speech) match what they actually said then of course you won’t be impressed.

    But if you compare the official translations–even their courts translate important decisions now–it’s hard to fault them.

    They’ve made 150 major promises in the past 70 years and kept all of them–and that’s why they are where they are today.

  36. @Iris

    Yikes!

    My rejoinder is, they weren’t looking.

    The CDC doesn’t go looking for trouble. It waits for trouble to come to it. It has become entirely passive.

  37. utu says:

    You wrote:

    “Five of the US troops developed a fever on Oct. 25 and were taken to an infectious-diseases hospital for treatment.”

    Why did Chinese paper on Feb 24 Global Time write this:

    Five foreign athletes from military world games in Wuhan infected with malaria, not COVID-19 in October 2019: hospital head
    https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1180549.shtml

    and the article does not imply nationality of athletes.

  38. occupatio says:

    @Ron Unz

    Of course it’s possible that an outbreak occurred in the US in October or earlier. If that happened, it’s not that no one noticed but that these cases were miscategorized as influenza or other respiratory problems. In other words, COVID-19 doesn’t seem to exist until you can identify it, and if there is no testing for it, then it is invisible to the CDC.

    This issue has already been addressed in a congressional hearing, in which the CDC admitted that COVID-19 might have been among the deaths categorized as influenza last year. The CDC doesn’t know because they never tested for it. (And they don’t want to go back to test the earlier cases either.)

    We are talking about tens of thousands of influenza and pneumonia deaths in the recent season, according to the CDC. It is easy for an early-stage, new epidemic to ‘hide’ in these statistics. The US system is first of all unsuitable for finding the new virus, and secondly, as is shown by the US govt suppression of investigative testing early this year in Washington state, the CDC does not actually want to know how early COVID-19 was present on American soil. I’m referring to the NYT story, in which the CDC shut down Dr. Chu’s investigation of Washington state testing for COVID-19, after she independently found a patient with COVID-19 who had not traveled, and had no known contact with those exposed to COVID-19.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  39. utu says:

    According to Godfree Roberts’s Chinese counter-narrative America was infected before China and apparently life went on in America w/o anybody noticing. The epidemic grew exponentially and still nobody noticed. There was no Wuhan in America. So it must be true that the covid-19 is just like a flu. Most get it, some feel under the weather and few old people die. It happens every year. But apparently not to Chinese who created a crisis out of nothing by getting hysterical about 3,200 people dying in Hubei province in 3 months, a province of 58 millions where every month 34,000 people die on average. If Chinese did not overreact there would be no crisis and we all would be OK. Did I get it right? Is this Godfree Roberts’s theory in a nutshell?

  40. Tor597 says:
    @Ron Unz

    I pretty much agree with everything you said.

    No matter which view point you take, it is hard to create a unifying theory of anything right now since there is still a lot we don’t know yet.

    The main thing that bothers me is why was China, Italy, and Iran hit so hard. I no longer think it was a racially targetted weapon but something has to account for the difference in intensity.

    There are many countries that are pretty much doing nothing and the severity of their outbreak is mild to moderate. Meanwhile the effects on Italy, China, and Iran were truly devastating.

    It was speculated that Chinese smoking was what made their outbreak so bad, but over time that just seems like a minor contributing factor. So what was the main driver that made the outbreak so bad then?

    There being S and L variants with different virulence makes the most sense to me but there are probably other scenarios that make sense too.

    You could take the same virus that is going around everywhere, and then enhance it in a test tube to make it easier to infect people, then release it in countries you want to target.

    This is kind of like how plants are fed fertilizers. You can plant the same species of tree all over the world. But if you fertilize the trees in Italy, China, and Iran what would happen?

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    , @Ton Jacobs
  41. Prajna says: • Website

    Maybe a little reflection on quite how nuts some of these microbiology experiments are might assist in developing insights:

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/rmv.1963

    …Specifically, 2 to 4 plasmids are used as the vectors, a strategy that aims to minimize viral gene recombination and thereby reduce the possibility of reversion to the WT [wild type] virus…

    …As HIV is the causative agent of AIDS, which could raise some safety concerns, some investigators employed SIV [simian imunodeficiency virus] vectors in the development of similar 3‐plasmid systems…

    Etc

  42. glib says:
    @occupatio

    Also, same link, see the #98 comment by Lysias, a regular there, who lost his brother to pneumonia in December. Yes, he lived near Fort Detrick.

    • Replies: @lysias
  43. Realist says:
    @Ron Unz

    Or maybe C0vid-19 was misdiagnosed in the US

  44. anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    I appreciate your bringing specific, contestable assertions into this discussion. Uncle Sam, sadly, is quite capable and willing to act as you suspect. People like Mr. Pompeo should be held to account, something that the MSM in this country will not do.

    But your schoolgirl crush on the rulers of China distracts from and undermines your reportage.

    Please stick to matters of fact.

  45. glib says:
    @Ron Unz

    If you have trouble believing that the epidemic could not propagate in early Fall, but it is propagating now, you will also have trouble believing in mortality by month

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/68/wr/mm6826a5.htm

    Obviously, if the probability of dying is flat, which seems to be your assumption, then every month has the same mortality. But that is not the case, and yes, the reason for the modulation in mortality is flu and other viruses, nearly absent when vit. D status is sufficient. This is why these epidemics are strictly in winter.

    The graph below shows that flu activity is 20 times higher in February compared to October. Why do you expect CV (itself a 1/7 of the flu) to behave differently? Do you really expect an epidemic to develop equally if R0 is 0.1, or 2?

    https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season.htm

  46. Anonymous[370] • Disclaimer says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    If it started October 12 in the US it had time to incubate, spread to Lombardy, and infect Wuhan hotel workers on October 27, during the Military Games (i.e., almost November).

    It killed 3200 there and they noticed and got on it.

    We didn’t notice when it killed 3200 here because we forbade testing until early March

    This is very plausible but I think it’s important to note that we can’t use just arithmetics to find out initial starting points for any viral outbreak. It can only be done through on the ground interviews, testing and detective work. In the beginning, when the numbers are tiny, the rate of infections will completely depend, and vary wildly, on the actual infected individuals and their behaviour/circumstances. Just that first guy can infect 20 people or one (technically none, but that would end it) which would almost certainly affect the timing by months.

    So, even if we, as an example, test everyone in a city and find a single cluster with 100 infected persons, the patient zero for that area could have arrived a month ago or six months ago. We simply won’t know until we do the legwork.

  47. Ron Unz says:

    Actually, I think the Coronavirus outbreak together with this article effectively illustrate the competing strengths and weaknesses of China and the US.

    China is generally run on meritocratic grounds by trained engineers and other skilled professionals. So when an unprecedented viral epidemic erupted out of nowhere just before Lunar New Year, they moved with remarkable speed and determination to take all steps necessary to avert a disaster, and managed to do so, resulting in only relatively minor damage to their economy and a few thousand deaths. But the quality of their government propaganda is terrible, so they came out with a ridiculous and logically-contradictory story about the Coronavirus outbreak, as presented above.

    Meanwhile, America has spent decades being run by its Ministry of Propaganda, whose highly-skilled professionals believe that they can create Reality using words and pictures. I think it’s pretty clear that these Deep State Neocons were responsible for promoting the various “China Done It!” stories about the Coronavirus that started in January, quite possibly as a cover for what was actually their own biowarfare attack against China (and Iran). Their propaganda is also highly implausible when you carefully consider it, but still vastly superior to the totally lame PRC propaganda.

    However, except for its excellent propaganda, the American government spent months doing nothing about the Coronavirus, being totally lazy and incompetent in non-propaganda matters. And to the horror and dismay of our leaders, the Coronavirus just ignores their propaganda, regardless of its outstanding quality.

    As a result, the rate of infection and death in the US, especially New York, has grown exponentially, and hundreds of thousands or even millions of Americans may die over the next few months, while our national economy has been wrecked.

    Everything is a trade-off, and countries that heavily invest in their technocratic management naturally are weaker in their propaganda, and vice-versa. So the rest of the world will have to decide whether the Chinese or the American approach turned out to be more successful.

  48. glib says:
    @utu

    The epidemic grew exponentially and still nobody noticed.

    Utu, there is a big difference between a flu epidemic propagating in Fall and propagating in winter. Specifically, the exponential curve changes dramatically. See my other post. Also it is strictly not true that nobody noticed. In Northern Italy a bunch of doctors noticed.

  49. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ron Unz

    Let us postulate that the initial release was accidental, and that the subsequent vectoring of the Detrick-19 Virus to China from the United States was likewise accidental.

    How might all this have come about?:

    Maybe he was the only infected individual in America and by purest chance, he happened to take the virus to China, launch the disease there, then avoid infecting any other American when he returned home. But this is *exceptionally* implausible.

    We are dealing with a much smaller population set than the American people. We are talking only of the fraction of our military who might have been infected with an earlier variant of Detrick-19/”America-virus”. The percentage of our military that was infected would be far higher than the infected in the general population – not only is the base set much smaller, but the occupations involved would be more exposed to any military pathogens around (simply being in and around bases).

    Consider also that, since the military sent 300 service members from all across our military to compete in the World Military Games, the chances of ONE (1) of them being one of the undocumented infected persons who got it around the Fort Detrick or Fort Belvoir area, go up.

    So maybe the virus was harmless in the US or not easily contagious. But when it got to China, it suddenly decided to randomly mutate into the extremely contagious and deadly form we now have. But that’s also *exceptionally* implausible

    As to the virus failing to raise alarms within the United States in spite of circulating since perhaps early October, it is very plausible that the optimal mass of asymptomatic carriers was not achieved in the United States, or (far more likely) was buried in the statistics of the known, “boring” disease of “Flu”.
    I.E. the American health system was not paranoid about anything SARS-like, so we weren’t looking.

    The obverse was probably true in Wuhan. It did achieve the optimal density of infected in and around the games venues, the hotels, the restaurants and the market place, AND the Chinese, rightly paranoid about a SARS repeat, were alert to Detrick-19/Corona-virus.
    A cluster was subsequently reported to the WHO by the Wuhan medical authorities, and here we are. (It seems that China, from that start, strongly suspected a deliberate Biological Warfare attack, but could not YET prove it, and so remained silent.)

    This is to try to exonerate our country from the charge of military aggression and attempted genocide, and to lower the bar to gross incompetence and widespread and willful lying and cover-up, ignoring the domestic danger to protect the military, and leveling malicious accusations against another country, all of the preceding costing a huge number of innocent lives around the world.

    It’s simply more comforting for us to think that we screwed up, then covered it up, disregarded the grave danger to our own people, and spewed lies about another country, than to admit that maybe we did it all deliberately.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  50. Anonymous[316] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu

    According to Godfree Roberts’s Chinese counter-narrative America was infected before China and apparently life went on in America w/o anybody noticing. The epidemic grew exponentially and still nobody noticed.

    It is possible. Please see my previous comment.

    https://www.unz.com/article/last-man-standing/#comment-3789557

    A viral outbreak can reach its first milestone – 100 infected – in any number of months so we shouldn’t be extrapolating current rates (even if they were reliable) to pinpoint the initial timing. It’s a completely useless approach for that purpose. Also, the numbers will almost always be fairly small and easy to overlook in the first couple of months.

    It happens every year. But apparently not to Chinese who created a crisis out of nothing by getting hysterical about 3,200 people dying in Hubei province in 3 months, a province of 58 millions where every month 34,000 people die on average.

    The virus has infected only a super tiny fraction of the world’s population so far. If we abandon “hysterics” and allow it to infect 80+% of us in a relatively short amount of time, the numbers of infected would explode by orders of magnitude and the mortality rate would probably surpass the Italian one. Even now, some countries are lacking proper facilities to cope so we’d end up burying hundreds of millions.

    Since we’re talking about exponential growth, the “rice and chessboard” story is instructive. One infected rice grain only managed to produce 128 infected grains at the end of the first row on the chessboard but more than 8 billion near the beginning of the fifth one.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Iris
  51. anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:

    The world suspected that Covid-19 was circulating outside China last year

    I ran into a person I know recently here in Chicago and he stated he had the flu in Jan and that it lasted for three weeks, two of them being very bad. I sort of wondered what sort of flu he could have had that would be so severe in an otherwise healthy person. They just diagnose flu through symptoms and that’s been it up to now. Maybe this thing has been circulating for a while without being specifically identified. American troops spread the “Spanish Flu” then blamed the Spanish, which gave it its nickname.

    • Replies: @Realist
    , @Ann K.
  52. anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Good comment. But why do you say “we”?

    Try to forego this Pat Buchananesque pronoun propaganda that conflates the American people with those creatures that rule us and as much of the world as they can.

    • Agree: Gleimhart Mantooso
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  53. @utu

    utu,

    To distract you back to that Petri dish the Diamond Princess.

    2154 of the 3711 people on board the Diamond Princess were over 60 years of age; the crew numbered 1045, and these would tend to be younger and healthier so even if some were infected they should have recovered. What I find hard to believe is that all those who died, died of Covid-19 and not of any other ailments, which considering the age and probably ill health of many of these passengers seems rather odd – not even due to complications arising from the seasonal flu. You can find the detailed age breakdown at:

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.05.20031773v2.full.pdf

    It would be useful to know what was the prevalence of the seasonal flu among these passengers, but were they tested for this at all? So they all got the coronavirus and nobody got the flu, or so it seems? For the sake of completeness of these studies, one would expect that they should also be testing for seasonal flu in parallel. If you come across any data for these flu tests for those on board the Diamond Princess, or elsewhere, post it. Obviously if a passenger tested positive for both the seasonal flu and Covid-19, and then died, they’d have a problem to decide which of these was the cause of death. Since we know that the seasonal flu kills many of these elderly and sick, shouldn’t the experts have also investigated the incidence, prevalence, and mortality due to seasonal flu among the passengers? And likewise in the general population.

    • Replies: @utu
  54. jalon says:
    @Ron Unz

    If all these assertions are true, it would be important to find out what happened to those 5 military persons AFTER they went back to the US.
    Are they still alive?
    -if they are all dead – dead men tell no tales
    – were they quarantined?
    How were they transported back to the US, separately or along with all other military games personnel ?
    Other pertinent questions:
    how were they treated by the infectious disease place, what kind of medication were they given? what reasons they gave for their illness? did they claim malaria, because malaria drug hydroxylchloroquine has been shown have some effectivemess (ie this demonstrate fore knowledge).

    As to why it did not spread wildly in US before this:
    a. this is a planned attack by rogue group, perhaps with permission from just one or two, as to who, I would have to pick the fat guy with name started with a P…. That’s why he has been “relatively” quiet since this virus event; before he has been basically issuing threats or bribes almost every day on Iran, China, Russia, Syria almost daily;

    b. it did not infect others because they only started doing it in Wuhan, and got themselves infected as well
    c. it’s possible after they left, they were quarantined, or perhaps victims of dead men tell no tales
    etc

    Note that the theory of “accident” does not make as much sense, as it would suggest a wider earlier epidemic in the US.
    The Chinese are trying to give the US a way out by giving some stupid “accidental” excuses, because to say that it’s a deliberate attack would require (demanded by her citizens) a war-like response.
    They don’t like war, really, incase there are still idiots rainwashed with the “Chinese aggression to take over the world” type mentality reading this.

  55. utu says:
    @Anonymous

    A viral outbreak can reach its first milestone – 100 infected – in any number of months

    Not any number of months. There are limits to how slow the lingering process that you postulate can be. All carriers would have to exhibit exceptional meandering to avoid infecting too many subjects. So the probability of it gets lower and lower as you need to postulate longer times to get from 1 to 100 cases.

    Keep in mind that Godfree Roberts postulates that infection in the US began before China. China on Jan 22 had 571 case and on Feb 1 14,308 cases while the US on March 8 had 541 cases and it reached 13,789 cases on March 19. So US is about 45 days behind China. Clearly this is not congruent with Godfree’s hypothesis.

    I would go even further and claim that the hypothesis that the infection in China began on October 27, 2019 during the Military Games might be a stretch. It implies that it took 87 days to get to 571 on Jan 22 which is about 10 day doubling time. Fortunately for Godfree China is most likely lying and the true count case on Jan 22 was probably higher. Unfortunately for Godfree he is trapped because he is psychologically incapable to openly question Chinese figures.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @Anonymous
    , @Johnwho
  56. @Ron Unz

    Wrong!

    We know from the Diamond Princess and now the Costa Luminosa that SARS-CoV-2 is not extremely contagious. 17% of the people on the DP were infected, half without symptoms (perhaps even false positives-the jury is out). 52 from 3711 (1.4 %) became critically ill or died. On the CL 74 (known to be an overcount, in a shared cabin both were counted as critical) from 1471 (5% or less) became critically ill or died according to current information. So, in cases of 100% population exposure, or as close as it will be in this world we see 1 to 5% critically ill (assuming a consistent definition of critically ill). They could easily be lost in the everyday winter flu statistics in the US. The deaths from vaping are a key clue.

    • Replies: @utu
  57. @Tor597

    Could be TB 60 years ago lingering in the older population.

  58. utu says:
    @Philip Owen

    “not extremely contagious” – You are making a wrong conclusion. Passengers on Diamond Princess were isolated in their cabins. Passengers who tested positive were taken out of the ship to military hospital in Japan. Diamond Princess was not a peri dish! The epidemic was arrested there and stopped.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/trapped-on-virus-ravaged-cruise-ship-shocked-passengers-struggle-to-keep-spirits-up/2020/02/05/6fbae50c-47d3-11ea-91ab-ce439aa5c7c1_story.html

    “…passengers who tested positive […] have been transferred to hospitals…”

    “For those left on board, there is nothing to do but sit in their cabins, wait for meals to be delivered, watch television or choose from a limited selection of movies on demand. Those lucky enough to have a balcony can at least sit in the sun, look at the ocean and talk to their neighbors.”

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  59. utu says:
    @Commentator Mike

    The most interesting part of the paper you linked (thanks) is the fact that it took TEN authors plus the whole “CMMID COVID-19 working group” to estimate ONE number, the CFR from SEVEN cases of deaths among passengers of Diamond Princess. And the result is 1.1% (95% CI: 0.3–2.4%). What a waste.

  60. @clip

    Your analysis assumes this specific virus is not a bioweapon.

    It was most likely bat soup and other crazy food.

    But if it was a bio-weapon, it was likely spread by rogue elements, not by official state policy. I can’t imagine the government deciding to spread this all around to tank the economy in China and US.

    • Replies: @vot tak
  61. vot tak says:

    “The world is very good at tracing Coronaviruses back through their generations and China has done so and now it seems the shit is about to hit the fan.”

    From the info Roberts has gathered here, the Chinese have traced the source of the virus. I sort of thought they had when Chinese officials began publicly talking about the usa being the likely source.

    The israeloamericans thought they would pull another one, but instead China defeated them quite spectacularly. No doubt the israeloamericans thought they would bring China down, while using the large size of their own interrelated economies to weather the storm and come out on top. Not the first time they, the western capitalist oligarchy, tried this gambit, btw.

    China is already in recovery, while the israeloamerican colonies are still far from recovery. This means China will be on the rise while israeloamerica is still in descent. There is a term for this in tennis, it’s called:

    Game, set and match.

    And trump is now toast, BTW.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  62. vot tak says:
    @Priss Factor

    This is called damage control.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  63. vot tak says:
    @Ron Unz

    “So maybe the virus was harmless in the US or not easily contagious.”

    Yes, maybe the virus was engineered to affect a specific Asian genetic group harshly (or developed this aspect naturally), and is mostly like a normal flu to others.

  64. @utu

    There was no quarantine for two weeks. The centre of infection was the kitchen which served both passengers and crew.

    • Replies: @utu
  65. Iris says:
    @Anonymous

    The virus has infected only a super tiny fraction of the world’s population so far. If we abandon “hysterics” and allow it to infect 80+% of us in a relatively short amount of time, the numbers of infected would explode by orders of magnitude

    It would be good to clarify what “hysterics” are actually about.

    In the lowly world of “inferior” beings (not Israel or the US, obviously), countries abide by the International Health Regulations, which oblige them not only to disclose any potential epidemic that could harm populations and Health Systems to the WHO, but also to help other countries with knowledge and means.

    https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/what-are-the-international-health-regulations-and-emergency-committees

    The death rate of Covid-19 does not matter: by definition, it is an unknown parameter anyway in the case of a new pandemic appearing. “Inferior” countries, such as the PRC, treat the patients first and will calculate death rates later. It is not possible at this stage to scientifically calculate the Covid-19 death rate: there is not enough data, not enough distance, and not enough specific information by risk classes anyway (age, pre-existing conditions, level of exposure).

    Only some non-scientific, anecdotal, common-sense information is available at this stage:
    – the coarse global “death rate” stands at around 5%
    – the Covid-19 syndrome kills essentially the elderly, those with pre-existing health condition, and health personnel. It is therefore an unacceptable threat to National Health Systems.
    – In a developed country, it seems to increase standard mortality rate by about 10 % per day (France: 1900 instead of 1700 per day)
    – It requires to mobilise a large number of intensive care units, which are already long past their capacity in Italy, and nearing the end of their capability in France. Germany has just offered to take on French patients from the badly hit Alsace epidemic centre.
    – As a matter of comparison, the epidemiological risk link of AIDS is incomparably lower (only 40 million people infected after 4 decades); it still remains a WHO priority.
    – Covid-19 kills care personnel exposed to it: 4 French doctors have died so far.

    In an uncertain situation with no distance, the attitude towards Covid-19 was likely to be different, depending on the culture of the country:
    – Italy, France, Germany, Spain Iran, China being relatively equalitarian countries, not likely to let their elderly go before their time, they declared national emergency.
    – The UK is a class society, but where the rule of law is strong and people heavily-taxed. Malthusian Boris Johnson would have loved to have his way and let “herd immunity” do its job of culling the elderly, but he needs to think of future elections. So, he followed suit with fellow European countries.

    The US, although the Nr 1 global economy, has done none of the above. Does stating this evidence make one a PRC sycophant?

    • Replies: @refl
  66. Anon[195] • Disclaimer says:

    ” Coronavirus: ‘strange pneumonia’ seen in Lombardy in November, leading Italian doctor says

    Virus was circulating ‘before we were aware of the outbreak in China’, says Giuseppe Remuzzi, director of the Mario Negri Institute for Pharmacological Research”

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3076334/coronavirus-strange-pneumonia-seen-lombardy-november-leading

    A “strange pneumonia” was circulating in northern Italy
    as long ago as November, weeks before doctors were made aware of the novel coronavirus outbreak
    in China, one of the European country’s leading medical experts said this week.

    “They [general practitioners] remember having seen very strange pneumonia, very severe, particularly in old people in December and even November,” Giuseppe Remuzzi, the director of the Mario Negri Institute for Pharmacological Research in Milan, said in an interview with the National Public Radio of the United States.

    “This means that the virus was circulating, at least in [the northern region of] Lombardy and before we were aware of this outbreak occurring in China.”

  67. utu says:
    @Philip Owen

    Are you like CanSpeccy who often unknowingly argues against his original argument?

    • LOL: Parfois1
  68. d dan says:
    @Ron Unz

    This is a rare case where I disagree with Ron Unz. I believe the accidental release theory put forward by Godfree is not a ridiculous story promoted by PRC. It is a reasonable possibility independently arrived by a number of fair minded people too. Considering the following reasons / points:

    1. The bioweapon attack and the accidental release theories are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to have both. Further, the order can’t be determined at the moment. There could be a bioweapon attack followed by accidental release, or the reverse order.

    2. Cases of unexplained source of infection is sufficient to throw more weight to the accidental release theory over the bioweapon theory. And we know there are plenty of (early) cases where the sources can NOT be traced to China/Iran/Italy/whatever possible target of bioweapon attack.

    3. Although Fort Detrick was close in August, it does not followed the leak happened around that time. It could be later (or earlier).

    4. The accidental release could be transmitted to Wuhan by US military personnel, or it could be transmitted by other innocent visitors.

    5. The assumption of Covid-19 being extremely infectious is not necessarily valid. The assumption is based on confirmed test cases in various countries. We know most countries, including China, started the testing late. So many of the test case increases were due to “pent-up” cases. So it exaggerates the rate of increases.

    6. Wuhan and several hotspots are densely populated. So US rate of infection was likely lower. Further the weather, temperature, human travel pattern may affect the rate too, most pointing to lower US rate than China’s.

    The accidental release theory is also consistent with your view of crazy, lazy and incompetent government. It also does not require the assumption of ill-intent (although this last one is not hard to find).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Hibernian
  69. MarkU says:
    @Stoneman

    If the original form of the virus could not attach to human cells, then it would need a different host in order to replicate and that host would have to have contact with humans in order to pass it on. If it can’t replicate, then it can’t mutate. So what was its host in the meantime?

  70. @utu

    Here’s a Google translation from Guancha News.
    https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=248463

    Four special patients “exposed” a special military Games support force

    Recently, as two foreign athletes of imported infectious diseases were discharged from Wuhan Jinyintan Hospital, this brought a special medical security team to the surface of the current Military Games. They are the military games organized by Jinyintan Hospital to prevent and treat infectious diseases.

    It is understood that during the military games, five foreign athletes were sent to Wuhan Jinyintan Hospital because of suffering from imported infectious diseases. The hospital immediately launched an emergency plan for infectious diseases, launched isolation treatment for five infectious disease patients, and provided high-quality medical care services, which not only made foreign athletes and officials feel professional and reliable medical services, but also effectively controlled the spread of infectious diseases. .

    According to reports, in order to do a good job in medical services for various infectious diseases during the military games, the city’s Jinyintan Hospital has stored 77 infectious disease treatment drugs, 29 infectious disease protective supplies, and 4 bioterrorism protective supplies; five experts were selected as Member of the expert team of the public health emergency team of the military games; sent 2 deputy chief physicians to the medical support center of the military games to participate in the front-line diagnosis and treatment of infectious diseases; formed the bioterrorism medical rescue emergency team of the military games and opened at the military games Coordinated with the Military Command Medical Command Center, organized 11 emergency drills for medical treatment and transfer of Ebola virus disease and 4 emergency drills for medical treatment of bioterrorism, which provided a strong guarantee for the smooth running of the event.

    Zhang Hongxing, the party secretary and director of the Municipal Health and Health Committee, also made a special trip to the infectious ward of the hospital to condolence two of the patients, shake hands with them, ask about their illness, comfort them and raise their health, and send blessings. He fully affirmed Jinyintan Hospital’s effective response to the infectious disease treatment of this international event, and highly praised the medical security team behind the scenes.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Hibernian
  71. Factorize says:

    This url shows the phylogeny of COVID19.
    There is no evidence for more than one place of origin of the virus.

    All existing patients can be traced to coviral Eve’s RNA with an inferred date of November 28. The phylogeny shown would suggest that other nations did not have emerging epidemics within their own borders pre-existing a single origin genesis, as this would imply that other branches of the genetic development of the virus would trace back before the first sequenced patient. No sequencing results exist to support such an hypothesis. In fact as seen in the phylogeny there are typically multiple generations of the virus with mutations before this went international.

    Given the totality of the viral sequencing that has been performed (and this has been the most sequenced pandemic ever (using nanopores almost in real time)) there is not much room to propose alternative narratives.

    https://nextstrain.org/ncov

    • Thanks: Bombercommand
  72. @occupatio

    Thanks for clarifying that.

    Our media’s silence about America’s bizarrely suspicious behavior–refusing to identify Patient Zero, refusing to perform post-mortem tests, refusing to say where the first outbreaks were identified, discouraging testing until March, producing faulty test kits–is effective.

    Yet it is precisely that behavior that gives Chinese suspicions credibility.

    Silence, in this case, truly is golden.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
  73. @jjc

    The stories in Chinese media confirm military patients being treated in special infectious wards, and carry photos of them with the medical staff, but do not identify their infection as Covid-19. Four special patients “exposed” a special military Games support force: https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=248463

    If it was Covid-19 then it could now be identified retroactively. No-one has done that but the Chinese Ambassador is asking who was our Patient Zero. And we’re not saying. Why?

    The Games ran until October 27 so the team would have been home by November 1, presumably. All militaries are strong on epidemics, given their history in warfare. Were the returnees ultra-quarantined for fear of creating a scandal? Can we talk to them?

  74. @utu

    The Games ran until October 27 so the team should have been home by November 1.

    All militaries are strong on epidemics, given their history in warfare. Were the returnees ultra-quarantined because they had a highly infectious strain of Coronavirus? Can we talk to them?

    The stories in Chinese media confirm military patients being treated in special infectious wards and carry photos of them with the medical staff, but do not identify their infection as Covid-19. Four special patients “exposed” a special military Games support force: https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=248463

    If it was Covid-19 then it could now be identified retroactively. No-one has done that but the Chinese Ambassador is asking who was our Patient Zero. And we’re not saying. Why?

  75. Ron Unz says:
    @utu

    I would go even further and claim that the hypothesis that the infection in China began on October 27, 2019 during the Military Games might be a stretch. It implies that it took 87 days to get to 571 on Jan 22 which is about 10 day doubling time. Fortunately for Godfree China is most likely lying and the true count case on Jan 22 was probably higher.

    There’s really no need to assume that China was lying. As we all know, it’s *exceptionally* difficult to correctly estimate the number of infected individuals since Coronavirus has a long incubation period and something like 80% of the cases are anyway mild or asymptomatic. Obviously, there’s no way the Chinese could have tested all 11M residents in Wuhan, let alone their entire country. Similarly, the reported number of identified cases in the US is now around 40K, but the true figure must be vastly higher.

    Therefore, some people have reasonably argued that it’s much better to rely upon the number of deaths. Taking into account the incubation period, speed of propagation, and the mortality rate, the estimate is that the number of infections = 800-1000 times the number of deaths (during periods when the virus is spreading without restriction). I think there had been 17 deaths by Jan. 23 in China, so there were probably 14,000-17,000 infections. Since it’s quite plausible that a few extra very early deaths were misidentified, the infection total might even be considerably higher.

    Those numbers are pretty consistent with a doubling time of 6 days or less, which seems perfectly reasonable given all the huge estimation error-bars.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @utu
  76. utu says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Hilarious translation like from an anti-Chinese satire sketch. I am afraid your valiant fight on the behalf of China that exists only in your fantasy is not helping the real China. Anyway, there is no mention that the five foreign devils were Americans but you wrote this:

    “Five of the US troops developed a fever on Oct. 25 and were taken to an infectious-diseases hospital for treatment.”

    so you confabulated their nationality and confabulated their fever which is not mentioned either. Godfree Roberts, you are a liar.

    Check again the article in Global Times I have linked:

    https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1180549.shtml
    A Wuhan hospital clarified the clinical diagnoses of five foreign athletes at the 7th CISM Military World Games held in Wuhan, Central China’s Hubei Province in October 2019, saying that they contracted malaria and were not infected by the novel coronavirus.

    Zhang Dingyu, chief physician with the Wuhan Jinyintan Hospital, told Southern Weekly during a telephone interview on Sunday evening, stressing such cases had nothing to do with the novel coronavirus pneumonia, or COVID-19.

    Zhang’s clarification came after an old media report resurfaces online, claiming that five athletes were sent to a hospital in Wuhan for medical care and quarantine measures after they were infected with an imported epidemic between October 18 to 27. Posts subsequently went viral on social media, prompting theories that they were the original carriers of the novel coronavirus.

    You give very infantile vibes. Naivety, lack of sound judgment and retarded moral development. Sad.

    • Agree: Fran Taubman
    • Thanks: Bombercommand
  77. Before deciding which country to listen to, everybody should brush up on the US government’s two-decade history of undermining the object and purpose of the Biological Weapons Convention.

    https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/bwc

  78. @vot tak

    Some say the Deep State is using the Corona Crisis as excuse for the economic meltdown that was just waiting to happen. Even if true, I doubt if Wall Street goons engineered this crisis with some bio-weapon.

    So far, it seems like Bat Soup to me. Chinese need to stop eating crazy shit.

    Also, they need to be more humane to animals. Otherwise, they aren’t fully human, and Morrissey is right.

    • Replies: @S
    , @Chinaman
  79. utu says:
    @Ron Unz

    “There’s really no need to assume that China was lying.” – Oh, no. Godforbid. China and lying in one sentence, that can’t be.

    “the estimate is that the number of infections = 800-1000 times the number of deaths “ – Nonsense. Mortality for Wuhan was about 4% not 0.1%.

    You stretching numbers as if they were made of rubber. This is just another form of confabulation. Godfree Roberts you are a liar!

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @Godfree Roberts
  80. utu says:
    @Ron Unz

    the estimate is that the number of infections = 800-1000 times the number of deaths

    Are you sure you want to go there? CFR=0.1% 40 times lower than the official estimate for Wuhan. Three times lower than currently in Germany. With that low mortality perhaps we are worrying too much. Still a lot of deaths if 60% of American get infected but not in millions. Four times more than from flu in 2017-2018 when there were 45 mil symptomatic cases, 21 mil medical visits and 0.8 mil hospitalizations.
    https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

    “Coronavirus has a long incubation period” – Five days is long?
    https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/coronavirus-resource-center

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  81. Ron Unz says:
    @utu

    “There’s really no need to assume that China was lying.” – Oh, no. Godforbid. China and lying in one sentence, that can’t be.

    That’s unreasonable. Unless China tested all 11M people in Wuhan, how could they possibly know the exact number of infected individuals given the long latency period?

    The current official total in California is about 2,100. But nobody believes that’s correct, and the true figure is probably at least 10x larger. Is California “lying”?

    “the estimate is that the number of infections = 800-1000 times the number of deaths “ – Nonsense. Mortality for Wuhan was about 4% not 0.1%.

    No, I think the Wuhan mortality rate only spiked that high when the health care system was overwhelmed, and I doubt that had yet happened by Jan. 23 since they only began constructing that large temporary hospital on Feb. 3. On Jan 23 there were only a couple of hundred severe cases in a city of 11M. So I assume that the mortality rate at that point was the usual 1%.

    Backing out the number of infections from the number of deaths requires assumptions of the mortality rate, the timelags of infection and death, and the propagation time. But I think a ratio of 800-1000x is a reasonable means of estimating the number of infections. Here’s the (very crude) reasoning:

    Assume 100 individuals infected on Day 1, resulting in 1 death 15 days later. Based upon a five-day doubling period, the number of infected will have grown to 800 by the time that death occurs. This is obviously a *very* crude estimation technique, since I don’t know the mean time from infection-to-death. But given the latency period and lack of widespread testing, it’s probably much more accurate than the official totals during the exponential expansion of the virus, whether in the US or China.

    You stretching numbers as if they were made of rubber. This is just another form of confabulation. Godfree Roberts you are a liar!

    Ha, ha. I’m not Godfree Roberts and I’m not a liar!

    • Replies: @utu
  82. Ron Unz says:
    @utu

    Are you sure you want to go there? CFR=0.1% 40 times lower than the official estimate for Wuhan.

    No, you’re missing the key point. For example, I just read somewhere that the mean time from infection to death is about 3 weeks. If that’s correct, then the deaths that occur *today* give us an estimate of the number of infections 3 weeks ago (based upon the assumed mortality rate). And once we know the number of infections three weeks ago, we can try to estimate the current number of infections.

    In effect, current deaths give us a reasonably accurate time-lagged picture of infections.

  83. Anon[544] • Disclaimer says:

    https://www.army.mil/article/228879/us_women_finish_8th_despite_crash_in_50_mile_cycling_road_race

    WUHAN, China — A hit from behind on the final lap may have dashed the U.S. Armed Forces’ hopes for gold in women’s cycling, but bruised ribs and a cracked helmet didn’t stop Sgt. 1st Class Maatje Benassi from crossing the finish line.

    Benassi led the pack for much of the third and fourth laps in the 50-mile, five-lap road race Sunday during the second day of cycling competition in the CISM Military World Games. She had dropped back to draft a while and was just beginning her final push when the crash happened.

    “My plan was to move up on the left,” Benassi said. Two more wide right turns were approaching before the finish “and so if you move on the left, you don’t have to hit your brakes; you can carry all that momentum — that speed — going into the turn.”

    Matthew Benassi worked at Fort Detrick lab that was shut down. What is Maatje Benassi’s relationship with Matthew Benassi?

  84. Ronnie says:

    Much like Ebola, the early symptoms of COVID-19, including fever, myalgia, and fatigue, might be confused with malaria and lead to challenges in early clinical diagnosis. It is said that the five infected US troops in Wuhan in October were diagnosed and treated for Malaria at a local Wuhan hospital – chloroquine – but they actually had COVID. And they apparently recovered. This may also explain why Trump is pushing chloroquine treatment so aggressively.

  85. @Godfree Roberts

    Our media’s silence about America’s bizarrely suspicious behavior

    What do you mean, “our” media’s silence, Godflee?

    • LOL: Fran Taubman
  86. @Ron Unz

    To flesh out what I previously said about the ‘starting stock’ that will exist in an environment where nobody is testing anyone for a while, consider the following ‘back of the envelope’ example. (It’s a decent-sized envelope).

    This is also a really nice little example to show how unrealistic the unconstrained epidemiological models are.

    Start with some broad parameters. I’ve got them from ‘official’ sources (I’ll write this up properly at some point – maybe tomorrow – and give a link with references and what-not).

    Examine the numbers in the list below, and see if you think any of them are controversial.

    • the average person has 5 contacts per day with uninfected people;
    • there’s a 20% chance of infection from contact with an infected person;
    • the incubation period is 5 days;
    • 70% of infected people have symptoms less than a cold (half of them totally symptomatic);
    • the infectious period lasts for ten days;
    • 21 days after infection, people are dead or recovered (assume 3.8% IFR).

    Now we can step through day by day and see what stock of infected people we wind up with at various points in time. The day-on-day changes match the transition functions for an unconstrained SEIR model.

    [MORE]

    Start at Day Zero: Patient Zero – who is infected, contagious and asymptomatic – gets off a plane.
    .
    .
    .
    [Iterate iterate iterate]
    .
    .
    .

    Day 45: 2.8 MILLION have been exposed; 1.9 million are infectious, only 1500 have recovered, and there have been only 55 deaths.

    (NB: ‘deaths’ and ‘recovered’ are a function of the total infected population 21 days ago; “infectious” is equal to infectious yesterday plus 20% of people exposed 5 days ago).

    That total infected number’s unrealistically high because of the nature of the model: it is missing a shitload of obvious constraints.

    For example: people might have 5-10 contacts a day, but it’s not with new people. (On the flip ide, it’s not like each uninfected can only get it from a specific infected individual – but there will be innate spatial constraints on movements, too)

    By the 60-day mark, unless you put constraints on the model, there are 298 million people who are infectious (and 445 million exposed).

    This is obviously stupid in a world where the overwhelming majority of people test negative (98.7% negative with 121,000 tests done in Australia)… and most countries don’t contain 445 million people.

    At 60 days it’s also generating 9000 deaths a day in a single country, from a single imported patient, and has a cumulative death toll of 30,000.

    These are all far too unrealistic, because the model has no built-in constraints.

    Uninfected people would become progressively rarer after the 50-day mark (by which time 10 million would be infectious in an unconstrained model), and the death toll would be just over a thousand already.

    But let’s stick with it – otherwise we have to do some tweaking, some combination of
    • reduce the infectiousness;
    • decrease the IFR (3.5%);
    • lengthen the incubation period;
    • reduce the number of contacts per infected person per day.

    Now… if Day Zero is at the very end of October 2019, then by mid-December there would be 1.8 million infectious wandering around – a million of whom would have no or few symptoms.

    How many ‘confirmed cases‘ would there be on the same date? ZERO. Testing hadn’t started yet.

    If Day Zero is instead late December 2019, under this scenario (which as I say, is based on parameters promulgated by the authorities) there would be almost 2 million infectious wandering around by February 15.

    By Feb 15 the US had conducted 2148 tests and had 15 confirmed cases.

    The difference: the CDC assumes that ‘Day Zero’ is the date of the first confirmed case (January 21) – which is fucking stupid.

    They are effectively claiming that between January 1 and January 21, no infected-asymptomatic person from Wuhan, Italy, Iran or elsewhere, entered the US and went about their normal lives.

    I call bullshit on that.

    .

    If this thing was worth worrying about – genuinely highly infectious; with a genuine IFR above 3% and transitional dynamics akin to those described by a SEIR model – then by the time testing started in earnest (mid-March) it was already too late to ‘fix’ by any mechanism whatsoever.

    The most likely explanation is that this thing is moderately infectious, but not very lethal: under that scenario there are plenty of people already out there carrying and spreading the thing, and tests are ‘finding’ those people, not new infections.

    That’s consistent with the C/T (confirmed cases / total tests) being relatively constant (in fact slightly declining)

    So I’ve been let down by Mother Nature yet again: she has again failed to furnish me with my longed-for 14th-century style ‘rinse-out’ of the gene pool. What a BITCH.

  87. utu says:
    @Ron Unz

    “Ha, ha. I’m not Godfree Roberts and I’m not a liar!” – I am really sorry. When writing it I thought I was responding to GR. I posted it and then I realized my mistake and erased the comment. Refreshed the page and it wasn’t there. But apparently I was too late. Then I wrote my second comment.

    Assume 100 individuals infected on Day 1, resulting in 1 death 15 days later. Based upon a five-day doubling period, the number of infected will have grown to 800 by the time that death occurs.

    Now I understand and agree providing that the true CFR is 1%. On Jan 22 there were 17 deaths which translates to 1700 infections (instead of 571 worldometers.info) which using 5 day doubling period gets us to the patient zero 54 days earlier, i.e, late November which makes late October first infection feasible providing all crude assumptions: CFR could be less than 1%, number of deaths on Jan 22 could be larger than 17 because, you know them Chinese, they could be lying.

    • Agree: Ron Unz
    • Replies: @ploni almoni
    , @utu
  88. Anon[348] • Disclaimer says:

    A few days ago, Mike Pompeo phoned Yang Jiechi, Chinese State Councillor for Foreign Affairs. Pompeo’s counterpart is actually Foreign Minister Wang Yi and Yang is Wang’s boss, so Pompeo wanted to talk about something urgent and important.

    Pompeo wanted the Chinese not to publicize what they had found.

    This story would be more credible if a recording of said phone call is made public. In fact, it would blow the whole thing up.

    I have heard from a source in “deep state” that they had known about coronavirus in DC back in November, and that lots of people had already had it. They just took antibiotics. I don’t know how credible that is since antibiotics appear not to be able to cure Covid-19, or at least not by itself. A French doctor has discovered that if used in conjunction with hydroxycloroquine then the cure rate is 100% in 6 days. Maybe it wasn’t a true French discovery, he was tipped off.

    • Replies: @refl
    , @Johnwho
  89. Ron Unz says:

    Well, one of the world’s leading epidemiologists was interviewed by the NYT. And he says that according to his detailed models, the *best case* scenario involves over a million American dead.

    This is clearly shaping up to be the greatest American disaster at least since the Civil War 150 years ago.

    If it’s indeed blowback from a biowarfare attack against China (and Iran), I’m not surprised that the Deep State Neocons responsible are so desperately trying to convince people it was all caused by “Chinese bat soup” and other propaganda-nonsense. And this obviously helps to explain the large numbers of trolls and shills now cluttering up the comment-threads of this website.

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

  90. Anon[153] • Disclaimer says:

    First Vaping Death Reported by USA Health Officials. August 2019, “Amid the lack of information, investigators scrambled to find shared links to the respiratory problems. Officials said earlier this week that many patients, most of whom were adolescents or young adults, had described difficulty breathing, chest pain, vomiting and fatigue.” Covid-19 symptoms.

    Vaping victims are mostly young people, many under 20, the opposite of Covid-19 victims, who are mostly the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions, no one under 20.

    Also main symptoms of Covid-19 are coughing and fever, which didn’t seem to afflict the vaping victims. Some Covid-19 patients also reported body ache, headache and fatigue. The more serious ones cough up blood, like Amy Klobuchar’s husband.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  91. @Bobby Mitchum

    Awww, the “mom’s basement” meme. I haven’t seen that one in a long time. Thanks for taking it out of the mothballs. The classics never die.

    Next up: How about the one where the commenter you don’t like lives in a trailer park and married his sister?

  92. @Bruce Arney

    It reveals the ugly little wizard hiding behind the American flag.

    Only if you believe the bovine chips being shoveled by this worthless communist.

  93. Anon[312] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ron Unz

    Apparently the Trump administration ran a “simulation” last year involving a respiratory virus from China that became a pandemic. It sounds like it was some sort of war game or exercise.

  94. FB says: • Website

    And then we have this…

    Bill Gates predicted a coronavirus-like outbreak – down to it starting at a Chinese market – in 2019 Netflix documentary show ‘The Next Pandemic’

    In what now appears to be an eerie premonition of future events, the Microsoft tycoon …warned of the likelihood of a virus breaking out in one of China’s wet markets – exactly like the one in Wuhan where this new outbreak of Coronavirus is believed to have originated.

    ‘Eerie premonition’ indeed…the Microsoft oligarch has been having a lot of those lately…including the Event 201 last fall where various pinheads and mini-fascists from various globalist outfits like the WHO and IMF and organized by the Gates Foundation, drilled about a coronavirus outbreak that would unfold for real just weeks later…

    He’s been going around for 20 years now trying to get every human on earth to take a needle of something or other, supposedly a ‘vaccine’…he’s also investing big bucks in biotech firms that are developing bleeding edge gene-editing techniques…now one of his ‘vaccines’ is being rushed through the system without being tested on lab mice and going direct to human trials…

    William Engdahl has a good article about Gates’s dabbling in pandemics here…

    • Thanks: Parfois1
    • Replies: @Seraphim
  95. Why this attack on China? If anyone is covering up it’s the Germans. Compare their data to France: more than 7 times fewer deaths than France! Now what’s the reason? That’s what I call unbelievable. Those Germans always want to look better no matter what.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Zarathustra
  96. Parfois1 says:
    @Ron Unz

    Also funny how the US had 300 military personel in Wuhan for a major sporting event & roughly 14 days after the US departure this unknown aggressive disease surfaces…coincidence,

    There are many glaring holes in your argument, which other commenters are taking care of. As to one specific instance, this “coincidence” of the World Military Games in Wuhan, was highlighted here on the 22/2/2020, started by “animalogic” and my response below:

    “Yes, I noticed that coincidence too. But it goes a bit further than that. Comparatively, you would expect that such a large contingent of US military athletes would scoop a respectable number of medals. But no, they got a dismal 8 medals and no gold, behind such military powerhouses as Namibia and Tunisia.

    Is it the case that the US military are sub-standard or were they bioweapons personnel masquerading as athletes?”

    I admit it was a speculative comment, but it arose from the cumulative evidence about the capacity to and performance of acts of the highest criminality, the precedent factor in criminal investigations. As it turns out, the military athletes were the carriers of a bug already escaped from Fort Detrick, whether accidentally or not is yet to be ascertained. But it is not inconceivable, given the numerous other “coincidences”, that they were intended to be the carriers to cause a pandemonium in China.

    This is not in the realm of “conspiracy theories”, just logical conclusions and observations consistent with prior behaviour. And it all fits a recognizable pattern.

    • Replies: @Krollchem
  97. Anonymous[603] • Disclaimer says:
    @vot tak

    If it could be proved that the whole thing started in America, that Trump himself made it in his kitchen with a Fisher Price science set…. They will just deny it. The media denies it, the average man on the street doesn’t know about the nuts and bolts of this stuff. If there is hard evidence, you just say it was fabricated. Easy.

    It’s like 9/11. It’s obvious that many aspects are off about the whole thing, but it makes no difference if the mass media has no desire to push the issue. If China pushes the issue, you can just get Americans worked into a dumb, patriotic, anti-Chinese lather. You end up with a new Cold War (or a hot war), which was probably the goal in the first place.

    The reality or truth of a situation no longer matters. It’s the perception that matters, and this can be manipulated quite easily.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  98. jonswift says:
    @Billy Bob

    He might have been drunk when he wrote the comment and got confused.

  99. 22pp22 says:

    Oh, go away you silly little man!

    I am not even going to read the article. I know the contents already. We are in lockdown because of Chinese people’s depraved eating habits. I am not amused. They have infected the world with one virus after another. Repatriate out industries and build a wall around them.

    • Troll: d dan
  100. @Godfree Roberts

    It has been spreading for the same amount of time in both China and the US but China has a detection system for novel Coronaviruses and we don’t.

    Wat?

    No. Epidemiology doesn’t need a defined pathogen. It needs a case defintion. See also clinical syndrome

    John Snow didn’t know what Vibrio cholerae was — but he knew what cholera was.

    Similarly, the Chinese did not recognize this disease via some kind of microbiologic surveillance — they recognized a cluster of cases of a particular clinical syndrome. When they reported a cluster of cases on December 31, 2019, those were not cases of a novel coronavirus, but of pneumonia of unknown cause. They did not know what pathogen was causing this disease until they identified the pathogen in mid-January.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  101. refl says:
    @Ron Unz

    Mr. Unz, I really appreaciate some of Robert Godfrees writing. Especially, I found his articles on Mao eye-opening. And there can be no doubt that China at least for now is providing a far better modell for the rest of the world to follow then the US.

    But treating Corona as a given is disinfo.

    Under the Kevin Barret article (and a huge thanks for posting it) the percentage of Corona-believers and Corona-deniers is about 50/50, where it should be in an informed discussion.

    The Chinese superhero demigod George Gao, as far as I have read, was part of the test run Event 201.
    We have here an interesting case of collusion again, where the eastern and western world powers again put Europe on the chopping block.

    Now, this is a huge generalization on my part, but as we see this giant mass hysteria psyop develop in real time, any reporting should leave enough space open for the denier faction.

    China has a lot to gain from setting the pace for disaster management in the West. The US is hopelessly divided, politically, and thus incapable of coherent political action.

    There are more then enough motives for the elite players to set this up jointly.

    How about some sort of open thread for commenters from various countries to fill in the level and pace of the destruction of their civil liberties at this moment. I have read about lock downs in New York and California (the notorious anti-Trump bastions). I have read about Americans hoarding weapons like Europeans hoard toilett paper.

    We could be experiencing something huge in real time.

    Now, I will skim the comments for Corona denial.
    Thanks once more for the opportunity you are providing with this site.

  102. 22pp22 says:

    No, Godfree, it is the Japanese who have behaved best.

    Look at Taiwan, too. The superior behaviour of the Taiwanese is undoubtedly due to fact they spent two generations under Japanese rule. Think how much better China would be today if the Japanese had been allowed to conquer it and civilize it back in the 1930s.

  103. refl says:
    @Anon

    They just took antibiotics. I don’t know how credible that is since antibiotics appear not to be able to cure Covid-19,

    VERY credible! You are hit with a garden variety flu and if it takes a more severe course, you are hit with a bacteriological super infection. That is, what the antibiotics are for.
    As for the flu, you sweat it out. The most normal course of a flu.

    If you are old or ill or live in a country with a broken health system, it can be deadly.
    Your question is a huge indicator that Corona is a nothing burger.

  104. Well in terms of deaths, it’s Korea and Singapore, not China, that have best handled the virus outbreak. And in any case, all the industrialised Pacific rim countries (including the US) have handled the outbreak relatively well. New Zealand for example, is yet to register a death from the outbreak.

    The big divide has been between the Pacific rim and Europe. European countries like Italy and Spain failed to crack down on tourism from China early on and that’s why Europe is now suffering high infection rates. However, mentioning this obvious fact would undermine the author’s simple narrative of good, competent China outwitting the bad, incompetent USA.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
  105. @Anonymous

    You have a point. Legwork, done retroactively after the pandemic died down, found that patient zero appeared 5-6 months earlier than the official H1N1 start date.

    This was not widely reported, probably because it would have reflected poorly on the CDC.

  106. 22pp22 says:
    @Ron Unz

    I really appreciate this website and I really miss Razib Khan – even his bad temper. But Godfree’s view that the Chinese are incapable of doing anything bad is just plain silly. I used to be a lecturer in Japanese history and many of my colleages on the floor below were Chinese-born. I owned a hazelnut orchard at the time and I brought a barrel of hazelnuts in for everyone to share. One of my Chinese colleagues was quite elderly. He hid little supply of hazelnuts all over his office. Mao-made famine is, it seems, something you don’t just forget. You just could not trust him around a plate of sandwiches either.

    I agree the Western world has lost its way, but the Wuhan flu came out of a Chinese wet market. This is not the first time this has happened and it won’t be the last.

    China ceased to be a basket case when it started imitating us, not the other way round. Western traitors gave them our technology on a platter and filled our research labs with their people. All we need to do is to say goodbye to this post-Marxist claptrap that passes for thought and morality in the Western World.

    • Agree: aandrews
  107. @utu

    The photographs accompanying the Guancha story were of US servicemen.

    “Malaria” is clearly a place-holder. Their treatment regime clearly shows that they were not treated for ‘malaria’.

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  108. @utu

    Unlike Ron Unz, I am Godfree Roberts but, like him, I am not a liar either.

    I’ve been studying China for 60 years and have never caught their government in a lie. If you have, kindly share it.

    • Replies: @22pp22
    , @Getaclue
  109. To Godfree Roberts:

    Please can you provide the source documentation for this:

    “•42 employees of the Oriental Hotel were diagnosed with COVID-19, becoming the first cluster in Wuhan. At the time only 7 people from the market had been thus diagnosed (and treated before the hotel staff). All 7 had contact with the 42 from the hotel. From this source, the virus spread to the rest of China.”

    Is this just anecdotal evidence or is there a published source?

    Thanks

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  110. refl says:
    @Iris

    – As a matter of comparison, the epidemiological risk link of AIDS is incomparably lower (only 40 million people infected after 4 decades); it still remains a WHO priority.

    Your comparison with Aids is really instructive. You remember when they told us that Aids was fulminantly deadly, back in the eighties? Welll, those dying in the New York art scene lived a life on drugs and unhealthy sexual practices in the first place, and susceptible to hysteria as they were started to take untested heavy medical drugs on top.

    Today, the thing is around but you hardly hear about it. It is rather a promotional item to foment homosexuality.

    I have read, via Wikipedia, that regular vaginal sex carries an infection risk of 0.1%. Let that think in! While I am all for condomes, when people sleep around, what amount of time do you still have for a working life, when it takes you 1000 sexual encounters with changing partners to contract Aids?

    As for gays, their practices can be far more violent, the number of encounters and partners increases enormously, so they contract any sort of disease, if they don’t protect themselves.

    I take Corona for the new Aids (which means stage managed psycosis in my view). Sadly, it has the serious potential to disrupt our societies, if we don’t manage to cut through this web of disinfornation.

    As for your french doctors who died:
    Give me the names, the pictures of their grieving families,their medical preconditions.
    This has become so big, that a little scare story to raise the hysteria will be dropped in every day now.

    • Replies: @Iris
  111. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @d dan

    Excellent post, offering a fine summary of relevant points.

  112. @onebornfree

    And in the UK the aristocracy still own a third of all the land, whilst the housing everyone lives in adds up to 6% of the land mass!

    You’re not debating, you’re putting up ideological statements, worthy of the indoctrinated.

    The state is not always beneficial, but when a quick response is necessary, a directing mind can act faster than individual cells. Of course this allows for tyranny, but it doesn’t guarantee it.

    It’s like the vaccers – they shout against em, but when an ebola appears, they are all for them in that instance – it’s not all so black and white.

    “Socialism without freedom” is slavery and brutality – but what freedom do most apes seem to want? The freedom to travel, watch TV, and eat lots of food. And for the freedoms most want, the Chinese state is not tyrannical.

  113. S says:
    @Priss Factor

    Some say the Deep State is using the Corona Crisis as excuse for the economic meltdown that was just waiting to happen.

    If one looks at history since 1776 and 1789 as a Hegelian Dialectic (an artificially created and broadly guided and controlled one I submit) consisting of an individualist oriented Capitalist ‘thesis’, a collectivist oriented Communist ‘anti-thesis’, and global Multi-cultural ‘synthesis’, ultimately manifesting in the introduction of a world state/empire to be called the ‘United States of the World’, it makes perfect sense.

    [MORE]

    In that light, in the same manner that there was an orchestrated top down ‘Fall of Communism’ thirty years ago, it follows there would also be a roughly corresponding and orchestrated top down ‘Fall of Capitalism’, to clear the path for the two closely paralleling internationalist ideologies final ‘convergance’ in global Multi-culturalism.

    The Corona virus, whether artificially created or not, and with it’s dire economic consequences for the Capitalist oriented US/UK and much of Western Europe, makes a perfect cover story for such a hypothesis.

    True believers in Communism will then be able to make the delusional claim that it was they that ultimately won the ‘Cold War’, just as true believers in Capitalism made the same delusional claim in regards to themselves thirty years ago, when in reality, broadly speaking, the ‘Fall’ of each ideology had been planned all along.

    It’s the power of the Big Lie.

    Wake up humanity!

    https://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/the_new_rome_or_the_united_states_of_the_world_1853

  114. The WHO was still saying on January 1st that Wuhan Virus didn’t spread by human-to-human contact.
    As for Washington being paranoid, COVID-19 kills mostly elderly. So of course a gerontocracy will not act rationally.

  115. GeeBee says:
    @Anonymous

    I see that when Prof. Lieber was released on a million dollars’ bail, Harvard University, where Lieber’s laboratory hosts more than a dozen graduate students and postdoctoral researchers, so far from supporting him as one of its leading researchers in this crucial field, appears to have fallen into line behind the US Governemnt. It has placed Lieber on paid administrative leave, barred him from campus and suspended his research and teaching roles. A spokesperson for the university told Nature magazine that “The charges brought by the US government against Professor Lieber are extremely serious. Harvard is cooperating with federal authorities, including the National Institutes of Health, and is conducting its own review of the alleged misconduct.”

    Naturally, the crucial education infrastructure became a bought-and-paid for part of the NWO before even the politicians did…

  116. Chinaman says:
    @onebornfree

    Governments don’t want a population capable of critical thinking, they want obedient workers, people just smart enough to run the machines and just dumb enough to passively accept their situation.You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own, and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear.” George Carlin

    Thank you. It is an apt description of the state of things in the US. Your president do own a lot of important land and your politicians are the most corrupted in the world.

    Your vitriol reminds me of the 2 minute hate sessions in 1984 and betray some deep seated psychological issues. How ironic coming from one who claim to be free. Some part of your subconscious is manifestly trying to contradict you by making you quote George Carlin. The virulent ignorance you are spreading is worst than the coronavirus.

  117. Truth3 says:
    @Ron Unz

    I was at Ft. Bragg in late December.

    When I left, I got horribly sick within 2 days.

    Cough, fever, body aches off the charts. Vomiting… and expelling from my lungs immediately. Normally if I have bronchial or lung infection it is after prolonged other sickness with sinus infection. This time, it started in the lungs. No nasal drip to speak of… just massive lung infection. Weird to say the least.

    I’ve had both bacterial and viral pneumonia. This was that on steroids with booster rockets attached.

    I was sick for over a month. Lost over 30 pounds because not only could I not eat from nausea, I couldn’t keep fluids in me. Massive dehydration.

    Unreal chest pain, akin to heart attack… only throughout lungs.

    I probably expelled 5 kilos of lung detritus 5 grams at a time. 30 or more expelling episodes daily for 30+ days. Eventually, bleeding in the lungs caused first tinged red, then whole blood clots to be expelled.

    Breathing was so difficult that for a 9 day stretch of it I was sure I would die.

    When I was able to move, Clinic said I did NOT have pneumonia… made no sense at the time.

    Thousand Dollar Bills to Donuts I had COVID-19.

    COVID-19 is a bio-weapon from Ft. Detrick, that has boomerang effects.

  118. Chinaman says:
    @Ron Unz

    The bat eating Chinaman narrative is as ludicrous as batman in real life. The bioweapon narrative can’t be substantiated.

    Only hope is the phylogeny studies which hopefully will shed light on origin and clear china’s name. The issue is that the current model is suffering from sample biased and presumes a Wuhan origin since the US wasn’t testing. We need more data.

  119. @Ron Unz

    Which leading epidemiologist was this?

    Also, I recall responding to one of your comments in an earlier article regarding the blowback angle.

    I said something along the lines of “In the very globalised world of 2020, and with much Chinese migration between China and the West, the people who released this bioweapon would have known that the probability of blowback was almost 1.”, You never replied and in reply to someone else’s comment, simply swatted away this large hole in the bioweapon storyline as “the American attackers were dumb”

    This virus is affecting the West far more than China, and the would-be American planners of this nefarious attack would have known that China would be able to lock down its population far easier than Western democracies.

    Not only that, but the leadership of Western nations don’t seem to have been briefed on this bioweapon attack and we’re all very complacent and were letting flights in and out of China and Iran long after the Chinese locked down.

    Of course it would be unlikely the leaders would know about the bioweapon, but they would likely have been briefed by their national security advisers that “Mr. President, this virus poses a great threat and we should shut down flights from China”

    Instead what happened was nothing!

    • Replies: @Half Back
  120. Anonymous[316] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu

    Not any number of months. There are limits to how slow the lingering process that you postulate can be.

    The point is that it can easily be one month or six months. It can linger, stay within the “average” rates or move much faster. In the beginning, when the numbers are very small, it all depends on luck, basically. If the first infected person is a social butterfly, who works in a kitchen, uses public transport and lives in a crowded household, the rate of infections will “skip” froward by a couple of months. So right there you should realise that the global patient zero (or a group of them) can’t be found without actual interviews and detective work on the ground.

    Therefore, your attempt to mathematically find out where and when the virus originated by using the later data – when the numbers were both unreliable and already in the hundreds and thousands – is completely useless. The margin of error is bigger than the chart.

    If I throw a six-sided dice 10 000 times, each number will show up at a rate close to 17%, but if I do it only six times that result would be extremely improbable.

  121. Realist says:
    @anonymous

    I ran into a person I know recently here in Chicago and he stated he had the flu in Jan and that it lasted for three weeks, two of them being very bad. I sort of wondered what sort of flu he could have had that would be so severe in an otherwise healthy person. They just diagnose flu through symptoms and that’s been it up to now. Maybe this thing has been circulating for a while without being specifically identified. American troops spread the “Spanish Flu” then blamed the Spanish, which gave it its nickname.

    I had a very similar situation, north of Chicago in late Jan. early Feb. after a visit to the DMV (nasty places for sure). The flu lasted about three weeks also…my wife suggested I may have pneumonia, but I did bed rest and toughed it out. I have no way to know if I had a bout with Covid-19…but my point is, it is possible Covid-19 was originally misdiagnosed, for sometime.

  122. @Godfree Roberts

    Based on the theory of a single genesis in Wuhan, there’s graphic tracking of the subsequent genetic samples here:

    https://nextstrain.org/narratives/ncov/sit-rep/2020-03-13

    Not much data coming from Iran yet, so there’s been some ‘backtracking’ from Canada and Australia.

    • Replies: @anon
  123. @onebornfree

    Commies. Commies. Commies.

    Lookmate, the people telling you what to think are far more powerful than Chinese propaganda. All the more powerful because you think you are free.

    Why would even hate some other country so far away? Because your war leaders want you to.

    You’ve been told to hate any country where neo liberalism isn’t dominant – Russia, China, Venezuela etc. So you do.

    It never occurs to you to not care about other countries because imperialism is bred in the American bone. Assad needs to go. Saddam needs to go. Putin needs to go. Chinese communism needs to go. Maduro needs to go. The EU are commies. Utter mind controlled zombism.

    And your “thought leaders” (they are kind enough to use those terms) want you to hate China now because just recently China has started to compete as capitalists and warlords with American industry and its permanent war state – that is to compete for profits and tanks, not just helping lower wages.

    China is powerful today because American capitalists, following free market globalist principles, sold out Americas manufacturing base for lower wages and higher profits. Now that the Chinese are manufacturing their own stuff the US capitalist class want to ban excellent technology like china’s 5G, and want the rest of the “free world” (or vassal states) to follow suit.

    So they want you to hate China now. More than usual. So you do.

    (I assume during your life you hated everything and every country the war lords wanted you to.)

    If you consider yourself “bornfree” then maybe spend less time worrying about other countries economic or political systems and take down the war party and the prison industrial complex in your own.

    • Replies: @Iris
    , @onebornfree
  124. padre says:
    @George F. Held

    No way USA would be responsible, USA spreads only democracy, human rights and salvation from hunger all around the world, even to those who don’t deserve it, because of hating our values and way of life!

    • LOL: Parfois1, Crazy Horse
  125. onebornfree says: • Website
    @onebornfree

    In skimming all the comments[92 to date] subsequent to my own original one in this thread [comment no. 4] , unless I missed it, I see nothing here that head-on addresses the main point of the article, which was/is[to paraphrase]:

    ” the Communist/fascist government of China did exactly the right thing by shutting down entire regions and citizens and forcibly quarantining people in their homes for weeks , or forcibly dragging them off, kicking and screaming, to government -run “treatment centers”, and that “therefor”, the US and other western nations should now copy the “great”, “wonderful “, Chinese “solution ” , because the Chinese government has now released “totally believable”figures “proving” that its “solution” has worked”, blah , blah blah, yadda,yadda , yadda.

    Even more idiotic than the article itself is the idiocy displayed by the majority of posters in response, who think that endlessly arguing over various supposedly believable infection/death rates actually means anything , when all the while , here in the US their freedoms and very livelihoods are now being removed en masse via the proclamations of the Commie scum-bag imitators and would-be Hitlers such as Newsome[CA], and Cuomo[NY].

    I repeat: “Your idiotic , slave-minded pro-state propaganda disgusts me. All of you , please, just fuck off back to China where you all belong, if you ain’t already there. Fuck you all, and fuck the Chinese government and all its Coronavirus so-called “solutions”” May you all rot in hell.

    No regards, onebornfree

    • Agree: Richard B
    • Replies: @DaveE
  126. Johnwho says:
    @Anon

    Yup, Cuba has 22 promising cures for this virus but you will never find it anywhere in the msm because Cuba is not politically correct. Tell you something; if I had the bucks to get there and was in good health that is where I would go. I would close my eyes and try to sleep going over America.
    Anybody here got the guts to write an article about that and save lives in America? Just wondering.

    • Replies: @Iris
    , @Patricus
  127. Chinaman says:
    @Priss Factor

    So far, it seems like Bat Soup to me. Chinese need to stop eating crazy shit.

    I guess you also believe in UFOs, ancient aliens and that America is the greatest country in the world.

    That bat soup video was made in Palau. The Chinese lady was a tour guide. I assume you won’t know where to find it on the map since you are American.

    Don’t try to conflate all 1.4b people. That’s one quarter of humanity you are insulting. I just did it above by assuming you never heard of Palau.

    You probably eat a lot of crazy shit I find revolting. I am vegan.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  128. Johnwho says:
    @Ron Unz

    Well, you’re a bit deep on the subject so let me staighten it out for you. There is absolutely no chance that any country would deliver a virus load to the city of Wuhan for the simple reason that they had flights going out from there to destinations all over the world. Including America, I just don’t buy it.

  129. Z-man says:

    Seek help and/or move to Wuhan.

  130. Herald says:
    @Anon

    The video is clever and contains a lot of useful information but its underlying theme is to keep the US off the hook.

  131. Biff says:
    @Ron Unz

    And this obviously helps to explain the large numbers of trolls and shills now cluttering up the comment-threads of this website.

    I for one, am glad you let them hang around – even if it’s for a little while. The reading can get quite entertaining…

  132. Herald says:
    @Ron Unz

    So the rest of the world will have to decide whether the Chinese or the American approach turned out to be more successful.

    This may well be the end of the Empire as we know it. Its long, but fairly slow, descent was already beginning to accelerate even before the coronavirus, but now it will likely soon approach free fall. The next few years look exceedingly dangerous for all of us.

  133. Tom Welsh says:
    @onebornfree

    The remarks by Carlin and barnett were actually directed at the US government.

    • Replies: @Polemos
  134. Baloney! This is a slanty-eyed virus and all the Godfreys (it means sycophant in ching-chong) in the world aren’t going to convince either Americans or Italians that the US deliberately infected the world with it. Please go sell the hogwash somewhere else!

  135. anon[191] • Disclaimer says:
    @onebornfree

    Now while some of the things you are saying have some validity, the vulgarity in which you express yourself belies a lack of intelligence on your part. Just because George Carlin swore like a trucker, he was a performer and that’s how he made his living, that doesn’t give you an excuse to do so.

    • Agree: Steve Penfield
  136. @Godfree Roberts

    Godfree Roberts, you are not a minimalist, you just have minimal brains and knowledge of probability theory.

    Do you understand how improbable it is that this highly infectious disease just happened by chance to occur in Wuhan which has a BSL4 lab. Do you realise how much more improbable it is that it happened in 2-3 locations at the same time – as many commentators in various sites are alleging (they claim it arose in Italy, US and China at the same time).

    As to your claimed “fact” that it was the military games contingent from the US who had the virus and transferred it to the Chinese, do you realise how improbable it is that the contingent participants were among the extremely small number of people who got infected first in the US (since there was no epidemic) and subsequently went to China.

    There is no arguing with you because you claim unsupported facts (American soldiers transported covid19 to china) and have no knowledge of probabilities involved in the claims you are making.

    You are just either working for the CCP or a fool extremely susceptible to propaganda!

    • Replies: @Herald
  137. “Their society’s health policies are more compassionate than ours, ”

    This is the most naive comment. If the author has ever lived in China he must have worn blinders. China is not a benevolent society. Quite the opposite.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  138. @Ron Unz

    What can you expect from Ron, he still believes the moon landings were real.

    As readers will recall from the earlier article (above), Japanese and Taiwanese epidemiologists and pharmacologists have determined that the new coronavirus could have originated in the US since that country is the only one known to have all five types – from which all others must have descended. Wuhan in China has only one of those types, rendering it in analogy as a kind of “branch” which cannot exist by itself but must have grown from a “tree”.

    The Taiwanese physician noted that in August of 2019 the US had a flurry of lung pneumonias or similar, which the Americans blamed on ‘vaping’ from e-cigarettes, but which, according to the scientist, the symptoms and conditions could not be explained by e-cigarettes. He said he wrote to the US officials telling them he suspected those deaths were likely due to the coronavirus. He claims his warnings were ignored.

    Immediately prior to that, the CDC totally shut down the US Military’s main bio-lab at Fort Detrick, Maryland, due to an absence of safeguards against pathogen leakages, issuing a complete “cease and desist” order to the military. It was immediately after this event that the ‘e-cigarette’ epidemic arose.

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/covid-19-further-evidence-virus-originated-us/5706078

  139. You were thinking?
    Looked more, like you outsourced the thinking to a people that don’t know how a country works and has to move from place to place and always leaves behind scorched earth.

  140. Erebus says:
    @utu

    I responded to your post referencing that article on the Kevin Barrett thread. You didn’t respond.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @d dan
  141. For the record I don’t know how this bug started. Nor does anyone else. But hey lets believe the Chinese government because ___? All governments lie. Besides theft, its what they are good at.

  142. Sean says:

    Martin Rees more than a decade ago predicted a million deaths from bio error or bio terror by 2020. However, those looking to the past might have seen the future the most clearly.

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/1/140123-spanish-flu-1918-china-origins-pandemic-science-health/
    “This is about as close to a smoking gun as a historian is going to get,” says historian James Higgins, who lectures at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and who has researched the 1918 spread of the pandemic in the United States. “These records answer a lot of questions about the pandemic.” “I would say that the takeaway message of all of this is to keep your eye on China as a source of emerging diseases”, Higgins says.

    The disease is called COVID-19. The virus that causes it is called “severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2” (SARS-CoV-2) by the World Health Organisation. The ‘-2’ is there because of the Nov 2002 appearance of the previously unknown SARS-CoV in Guangdong. This original SARS-CoV was due to a virus in a bat that got into a civet then a human.

    Scientific examination of its structure indicates that severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 is probably due to the November 2019 recombination of a bat virus with one from a pangolin. The Angiotensin Converting Enzyme 2 receptor binding domain is from a pangolin and that component is the key to how the chimerical virus enters human cells to infect them. Hypertension is the condition that makes you most likely to die of the coronavirus, and the treatment for high blood pressure is to put people on ACE inhibitors, which are definitely known to produce upregulation of ACE2. In SARS-CoV-2-infected humans with high blood pressure, the ACE inhibitors their doctors have put them on to treat hypertension are quite possibly pumping their lungs full of the virus and producing pneumonia.

  143. Wellens says:
    @onebornfree

    ‘Born Free’? Nope not at all, more like ‘Born an indoctrinated red baiting asshat’. Your xenophobic hysterical comment reveals your total inability to at least appreciate that socialist China is the only country that has succeeded in controlling and containing the coronavirus pandemic: nobody else! Not your corporate neo-liberal fascist shit coiuntry USA.

    China is sending massive airplane lifts of badly needed supplies to Africa, Italy, etc. What is USA doing? Implementing even more severe sanctions on Iran (BLOCKING MEDICAL SUPPLIES TO THEM!!) in an effort to kill them and immiserate them with coronavirus fatalities and contagion. Winning hearts and minds, huh? That’s your capitalist USA you asswipe clown.

    Let’s see how your crapitalist, ‘got mine, fuck you’ USA system deals with coronavirus. All the homeless tent cities, worlds largest prison population, 3rd world cities like Detroit, Baltimore, Camden, etc. will be epicenters of transmission. Private for profit healthcare to handle a global pandemic!? Good luck with that, joe mccarthy jr.

    I feel sorry for anybody in USA right now, the shit is really going to hit the fan 🙁

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @redmudhooch
  144. Erebus says:
    @Ron Unz

    I’ve been looking for that article on the NYT site without success. Do you have a link?

    • Thanks: Erebus
    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @Iris
  145. lysias says:
    @glib

    I live fairly near Fort Detrick, but my brother did not. He lived in New Jersey just outside New York City, and came down with what was diagnosed as pneumonia in late December, I believe as a result of a visit to Sloan Kettering cancer hospital on Manhattan just before Christmas. He died at the beginning of February.

  146. Having actually lived in a Communist country, I can’t believe some of the idiotic comments posted here providing cover to the Chinese Communist “authorities”. No, American soldiers did not bring the virus to China. This sort of tinfoil hat nonsense has no place here or anywhere else, for that matter.

    Let me educate the fools who believe the gibberish spewed out by the ChiComs. All Communist regimes have a few things in common. One, the very worst people rise to the top. Not necessarily the most stupid, but the worst in a moral sense. Second, they are brutal, arrogant thugs. Third, under the top tier, Communist functionaries are almost universally incompetent, lazy, and dumb. As for ordinary people, they are generally apathetic and sit around doing as little as possible – unless they are forced to work, as they obviously are in China, or the Reds figure out that by letting people improve their lives a bit, they can get more out of them.

    China’s economic growth is due to the innate hard-working nature of the Chinese (which even Communists could not destroy) – once the Communists allowed ordinary people to earn more than a starvation wage, the Chinese started working again. The other elements in Chinese success are intellectual property theft, the stupidity and greed of Western businessmen, and a complete absence of any kind of moral or ethical standards.

    As for the virus, get real. China is and always has been the breeding ground for most of the lethal epidemics unleashed on the world. That anybody fails to understand this is mind-boggling. Outside of the major cities built with the proceeds of stealing our industry, China is, to put it mildly, filthy. Of course this crud comes out of there.

    Caitlin, stop making a fool of yourself.

    • Disagree: John Chuckman, Ber
  147. manouche says:

    When lot of Chinese suffer from epidemic,I say “poor chinese”,when a lot of italians suffer and die from it,I say poor italians,but when americans start to suffer in quantities abnormal,I can’t get my self to say “poor americans”,i rather say,”serves you well,cause you are all criminals in that country for the way you make the world suffer over and over again.You are just the Empire of Evil,and it cheers me up to see you go down.Think about it.

  148. Rich says:
    @Ron Unz

    I cannot accept that anyone with even an 8th grade education could be stupid enough to initiate a biowar against any nation, let alone one as powerful as Red China. Maybe some rogue Dr Evil? If it turns out your theory is correct, there is no punishment too severe for the individual, or individuals responsible.

    • Replies: @John Chuckman
    , @Ron Unz
    , @anon
  149. Hibernian says:
    @d dan

    So many of the test case increases were due to “pent-up” cases.

    The illness is characterized by 2 weeks incubation and 2 weeks recovery for the vast majority of cases which are mild.

  150. Half-Jap says:
    @onebornfree

    Same reaction.
    As much as I appreciate the challenge of governing a historically disparate and quarrelsome region, I haven’t met a single mainlander who gushes as much as our friend Dr Roberts here. Even party members lol.

  151. Hibernian says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    This is propaganda of a regime which has certainly mellowed out since they killed 60 million of their own people, but still finds it necessary to control the appointment of Catholic bishops and more or less condemn to death by this virus the doctor who sounded the alarm concerning it. If you can’t see that this regime is a greater evil than our admittedly corrupt Western governments, you might be a Communist, or at least a fellow traveler.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  152. @Ron Unz

    Well, one of the world’s leading epidemiologists was interviewed by the NYT

    — and NYT would never, ever engage in fear-mongering.

    You surprise me, Ron.

    Did a plane crash into the towers or did FDR know Pearl Harbor would happen?

    You are arguing over the brand name and missing the main event.

    The icon of Coronavirus has been a graph, a curve, and all you super-smart math guys are arguing about where to put the decimal. I used to be good at maths but that was before my eyes started to fail; now I see only larger patterns.

    9/11 only used the destruction of the towers to implement the GWOT: the destruction of the towers was not the main event, it was the branding icon; the main event was announced by Ehud Barak from a BBC studio in London.
    Barak’s declaration of GWOT was planned at least as early as July 1979 in Jerusalem.

    Apply the same study, Scare-brands vs war and occupation agenda– Dreyfuss, WWI, WWII, GHWBush’s Iraq war, Syria chemical attack, Libya, next stop Iran.

    At each step zionist Jews gained more and more power and control over the economy, culture, and political institutions of a target nation.
    Next stop USA.

    The process has been the same, as have been the perpetrators; you named them.

    But they’re very reluctant to point to the pretty strong circumstantial evidence that the virus outbreak was a biowarfare attack on China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons. After all, that would be difficult to prove and also would be an act of war. Anyway, given the total incompetence of the US government, the Coronavirus is about to inflict enormous punishment upon the population and economy of the US, whether we were actually guilty or not.

    The destruction of US economy is the intended outcome; it’s the war.

    My state is now under lockdown.

    What comes next?

    Out and out coup?

    Jeff Gates tried to frame a slightly more precise definition of the evildoers, the “transgenerational criminal gang — zionists, if you will” who intend to take over USA.

    https://www.bollyn.com/john-mccain-and-the-zionist-crime-syndicate-2/

    I don’t think “millions and millions” are going to die in USA.
    Thousands, maybe.

    And it’s not “incompetence.”
    Shutting down an entire economy is not incompetence, it’s a plan.


    Adam Schiff and Gerry Nadler have been quiet lately. What are they up to? Celebrating?

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  153. RodW says:

    The situation here in Japan is most peculiar. We had the Death Princess or the Petri Princess (choose your favourite name) docked in Yokohama apparently breeding the Coronavirus, then people were let off it and they traveled home by public transport, later ‘testing positive’ for it when they had earlier ‘tested negative’. Every day several times a day, the NHK news has an update on infections and deaths, but they’re very unimpressive.

    The measures against the virus haven’t been at all heroic here. A lot of people are wearing masks and there’s hand spray in most public buildings, but this is the same every flu season. While urging the closing of schools and the taking of heroic measures, the elderly politicians are seen on television sitting close together in enclosed spaces, without masks, whispering in each other’s ears, and coughing audibly because most of them smoke. Their deaths aren’t reported and we see that their numbers aren’t obviously declining.

    It’s said that deaths in Japan from the plague are underreported so that the Tokyo Olympics can still be held, but of my 1,500 or so Japanese friends on Facebook all over the country, I don’t know even one who has even one friend who has the virus. A lot of these people are however beginning to ask what exactly this Coronavirus is.

    I caught something nasty back in December that has lingered and now produces a dry cough, but it started as a normal cold.

    • Replies: @Hacienda
    , @Half-Jap
  154. Anonymous[316] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    The more serious ones cough up blood, like Amy Klobuchar’s husband.

    Considering that he was married to the hag, that was probably a pre-existing condition.

  155. WJ says:
    @obwandiyag

    Not debatable at all if you are tin foil hat nut job.

  156. antibeast says:
    @Ron Unz

    This seems totally nuts to me. As we know from China, Northern Italy, and most recently New York, Coronavirus is *extremely* contagious. In the absence of severe government restrictions, the number of infected individuals tends to double every 3-5 days, thereby increasing by a factor of something like 100-1000x per month. And it seems to kill at least 1% of the population, perhaps rising to 5% when the health system collapses under the strain of the 20% who require hospitalization.

    Sorry, Mr. Unz, but you’re wrong on this one because you’re assuming only ONE(1) independent variable (n = number of infected individuals) affecting the dependent variable (N = total number of infections) over a period of time t at a constant rate of infection k, to wit:

    N = f (n)

    In multivariate analysis, the mathematical model of viral transmission should include other independent variables such as 1). population density, 2). rate of infection and 3). urbanization model. Wuhan, Hubei has a high-density population living in an urban environment while Frederick, Maryland has a mid-density population living in a suburban environment. The rate of infection also depends on meteorological factors (weather, climate) as well as biological factors (genetics, age distribution). Thus, the total number of infections (N) over a period of time (t) should be a function f of number of infected individuals (n), population density (d), rate of infection (k) and urbanization model (m), to wit:

    N = f (n, d, k, m)

    It’s quite easy to verify if the unusually strong flu season in 2019 in Frederick, Maryland was caused by Covid-19. All the CDC has to do is to perform posthumous testing of the dead patients diagnosed with influenza during the months of October, November, December 2019, and January 2020 and February 2020.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  157. @Rich

    Oh, plese, look at the activities the American government all over the world now.

    It is precisely what allows such theories to be plausible.

    Venezuela. Bolivia. Nicaragua. Cuba. Ukraine. Syria. Iraq. Libya. Iraq. Yemen. Etc, etc.

    Supporting Saudi Arabia. Supporting Egypt’s tyrant. And other ugly governments.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @windjammer
  158. Juzi says:
    @Ron Unz

    actually not hard to turn a virus infectious tbh.

    proteins for example can be deactivated in the presence of certain chemicals or temperature, so does RNA.

    In that essence it is entirely and easily possible that something that would have seemed harmless before would get triggered in a foreign environment, such as travelling abroad and eating foods that they usually don’t eat.

    In that case, it is likely that the virus might have been circulating in the USA but it was not as infectious until triggered in China and Italy, or, in fact, places in the same latitude. When triggered it mutates into a deadlier form and then gets introduced back to the USA.

  159. I believe Godfree Roberts should be welded into a shipping container and sent to China.
    This POS Commie fan-boy is a joke.

  160. Ron Unz says:
    @Erebus

    I’ve been looking for that article on the NYT site without success. Do you have a link?

    Sure, it was Nicholas Kristof’s piece in the Sunday NYT quoting Dr. Neil Ferguson of Britain:

    I asked Ferguson for his best case. “About 1.1 million deaths,” he said.

    When that’s a best-case scenario, it’s difficult to feel optimistic.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-outcomes.html

    Kristof buried it pretty far down in his piece, saying he did so to avoid getting his readers too depressed.

    • Thanks: Erebus
  161. Half-Jap says:
    @Ron Unz

    Models are as good as the inputs and algorithms. Just like those climate models. So perfect in predicting the past. As to the future, your model is as good as mine 😛 I wonder where the millions dead from other dire warnings turned out.
    Speaking of which, consider the lack of any mention on the rate of accuracy for these tests. Even on the definitional front, what the cause of death actually was is suspect, as vast majority, if not all, had other variables affecting morbidity and mortality. Few die from the flu, but do from pneumonia. They are distinct, although one tends to follow the other.
    I am just thirsty for data. They are all far from honesty, China and all others. While basic hygiene is good normal practice, this panic seems unfounded and flamed by govs and attendant media.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  162. Hacienda says:
    @RodW

    Their deaths aren’t reported and we see that their numbers aren’t obviously declining.

    It’s a big nothing in Tokyo. They just decided to postpone the Olympics, apparently because they’ve recently realized what a hysteria it’s become outside of Japan.

    Expert opinion is all over the board. But you can see slowing acceleration everywhere and actual deceleration in Italy. Warm countries have no problem. Trivial numbers in Southern Californa, I bet.
    Gavin Newsom seems to be a f+ck up.

    As for me, I’ve made some 3x leverage in stock market. See you all on the other end. New highs by November.

    Both Trump, China win again. Leverage is real. Not one in, one out game. Ask Archimedes.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  163. Half-Jap says:
    @RodW

    Exactly. It is actually damn right more comfortable commuting here as companies implemented various measures to stagger employee commute hours.
    The media and the minority parties love inflaming and exaggerating the situation and bash the government for how they are dealing with the situation, but considering the 97%+ survival rate, and most deaths being pneumonia anyways, if not by other organ failure, then who cares. Be clean, considerate, and healthy as usual.

  164. @Factorize

    Whatever it is you are saying, which is not clear because it is in jargon (deliberately?) it is clear that you are not taking into account known unknowns, and unknown unknowns.

  165. antibeast says:
    @Chinaman

    That bat soup video was made in Palau. The Chinese lady was a tour guide. I assume you won’t know where to find it on the map since you are American.

    That was fake news by the Western Media which also fabricated the lie that bats were sold in the Wuhan Wet Market which transmitted the Covid-19 virus to humans. Bats are not a delicacy in China nor were they sold in the Wuhan Wet Market. In fact, it is Yunnan not Hubei that is home to the bats which contain the Coronavirus whose RNA is the closest match to Covid-19. No animal sold in the Wuhan Wet Market so far has been found to contain the Covid-19 virus, not even the Pangolin.

    The Western Media is also promoting the false narrative that live animal markets cause zoonotic diseases by claiming that having live animals in a public market exposes buyers and sellers to animal viruses. Neither does consuming wild (or exotic) animals cause the animal-to-human transmission of animal viruses. The H1N1 swine flu pandemic originated in pig farms in the USA which then spread and killed several hundreds of thousands of people worldwide. The fact that those farm animals were raised in a factory environment didn’t prevent animal-to-human transmission of zoonotic diseases. Instead, it amplified the viral load which all but guaranteed a viral pandemic. The reason has to do with the density of those farm animals packed together in tight cages which increases the chances of pandemics.

  166. Ron Unz says:
    @Rich

    I cannot accept that anyone with even an 8th grade education could be stupid enough to initiate a biowar against any nation, let alone one as powerful as Red China.

    Here’s a recent comment of mine:

    Well, let’s temporarily leave aside the whole bioweapon issue…

    The entire American national security leadership, including Bolton and Pompeo, totally ignored the viral outbreak in China, even after it began to spread to various other countries, and for two months didn’t take any serious steps to prevent it from hitting the US. As a direct consequence, the official US CDC estimates are now that that millions of Americans may die from Coronavirus and our entire health care system will collapse.

    Offhand, that seems like a pretty “stupid” thing to do. So now apply that result to your original question…

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/#comment-3775013

    If it turns out your theory is correct, there is no punishment too severe for the individual, or individuals responsible.

    I agree entirely!

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
  167. Maiasta says:
    @22pp22

    “Think how much better China would be today if the Japanese had been allowed to conquer it and civilize it back in the 1930s.”

    Yeah, they gave it a good shot with the Rape of Nanking. In a period of about 6 weeks they civilised into their graves somewhere between 40,000 to 300,000 people. And a much vaster number in the long run.

    Also, where exactly did Japanese culture come from in the first place? Any ideas?

    But something tells me you already know, and that you’re really just a troll.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @lysias
  168. Ron Unz says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    — and NYT would never, ever engage in fear-mongering…The icon of Coronavirus has been a graph, a curve, and all you super-smart math guys are arguing about where to put the decimal…I don’t think “millions and millions” are going to die in USA.
    Thousands, maybe.

    Well, look. When people argue about Global Warming, they’re arguing about what might happen decades in the future. So the arguments are bitter and endless.

    When people argue about the Coronavirus, they’re arguing about what might happen within another few weeks. So we’ll know soon enough who was right and who was wrong.

    For example, CA Gov. Newsom locked down all of California last week because he was given the estimate that if nothing were done by early summer, 25M Californians would have been infected and (maybe) a million Californians would be dead. Personally, I think he did the right thing.

    But I do very much hope I’m proven to be a totally gullible idiot and we won’t see hundreds of thousands of Americans dead over the next few months.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  169. DB Cooper says:
    @22pp22

    Japan invaded China and massacre Chinese people in the order of hundreds of thousands. Rape of Nanking alone account for three hundred thousands. It also conducted the most diabolic biological experiments on human like vivisections under its Unit 731 program in China’s northeast. Japan brutally occupied Hong Kong for three years and eight months. During the occupation it confiscated the assets of Hong Kong people in exchange for the so called ‘military coupon’ as currencies. After the war Hong Kong people were left with a pile of these useless paper. When the Hong Kong people petition to the Japanese consulate year after year to redeem back the ‘military coupon’ it was duly met with evasion. The Japanese consulate refused to received the petition letter and address the issue year after year. Clearly Japan is waiting for those older generations to die out and hope the problem will resolve itself. These are not war reparation. These are actual money Japan owned to the Hong Kong people. Japan is a deadbeat.

    https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/1849456/hong-kong-protesters-demand-compensation-japan-70th

    It was the Chinese who civilized the Japanese in the last two millenniums you fucking moron. Part of the Japanese written language is Chinese and even its present system of government harks back to the era of the Tang dynasty, a period in which Japan wholesale copied everything China. Go fuck yourself you piece of filth.

  170. antibeast says:
    @Hacienda

    As for me, I’ve made some 3x leverage in stock market. See you all on the other end. New highs by November.

    That’s risky. If you look at the Wall Street Crashes of 1929 and 2008, it took longer — around a few years to reach earlier highs. 2008 also had the benefit of TARP, bank and auto bailouts plus 10 years of easy money which won’t work this time around because the US government is flat broke. Imagine having Trump bail out the Shale Oil, Airline, Hotel, Banking and Auto industries, plus small businesses like Restaurants. Not to mention U.S. boomers whose 401Ks and pensions have been wiped out by the Wall Street Crash of 2020. And the ranks of unemployed who will now depend on the US government for their hand-to-mouth existence. This ain’t what it used to be.

    • Replies: @Hacienda
  171. @utu

    I am sure you know, UTU, that viruses sometimes behave as if they are part of the individual, and they don’t appear at all, and sometimes, they suddenly reveal that they are really not part of the individual and prove to be an infection of a foreign entity. You know, like a cold sore. Sometimes it’s there, sometimes it’s not. Like people. Sometimes they are good. Sometimes they are bad. What are they, really? What are you? After all, you too, could be, just a virus.

  172. DaveE says:
    @onebornfree

    You’re right about one thing, at minimum. The level of ideologically based “reasoning” here is off the charts. Yet few if any recognize the natural factors involved in the balancing act between viral outbreaks and the containment thereof, via natural antibodies, vaccines, behavior, environment and other factors. That, coupled with the relentless pathological LYING from the zionist media trying to steer our thoughts towards another war for The Chosen , makes for one big clust^%#$ck.

    That being said, I think some common-sense and common-science reasoning kills these ideologues dead on contact.

    My first point: Airborne viruses don’t stay lethal for long, as the bodies of the host population develop antibodies against them, in time. There are two competing time functions here – the exponential growth function of the virus in a host population vs. the much-less-understood time function for said population to develop sufficient antibodies for a “novel” virus. (Although not very novel – always a minor variant on “last year’s flu”…. no pun intended.) So outbreaks can, and do, occur. But in time, the antibodies are developed and the virus dies off. Every Single Time, since we’re having this discussion – after 15 million years or so of life on planet Earth.

    Second point: Blood borne viruses like rabies, HIV, etc. are a real problem, but not for long since these viruses don’t last but a few minutes in air. They can perhaps be weaponized and spread through the air via some kind of air-cannon or put into food – I don’t know much about the limiting factors of germ-warfare – but I know that in nature, it takes some very unusual circumstances for these viruses to be spread to a normal population, through natural processes. Therefore, these viruses cannot lead to the kind of outbreak that will wipe out humanity, through natural processes at least.

    Third point: For the above reasons, there’s never going to be a virus that’s both lethal to healthy people and easily transmitted in air, in the long run. The antibodies always win, in the end, or we wouldn’t be talking about this.

    Fourth Point: The exception to 3.) above is germ warfare. Perhaps. Maybe. Certain groups have been lusting to develop a viral weapon – a lethal virus and a means of quickly transmitting it – for a long time, but so far have been, at most, locally successful, but not globally. It’s like killing people with mustard gas or similar – once it stops being intentionally spread, the disease stops.

    In other words, if this “coronvirus” is really a threat to the population at large, it’s because it’s been weaponized. This should be pretty easy to spot, and stop.

    Fifth Point: People can be easily manipulated. It’s much easier to make people THINK they’re going to die than it is to actually kill them. It’s become blindingly obvious that our (((media))) and (((politicians))) have been blaming China for this outbreak, and vice-versa. So it doesn’t take a rocket-surgeon to smell some utterly diabolical forces trying to play us off against each other. Coupled with a LONG history of failed false-flag operations (9/11, Iraq war, Iran-gate, Syria-gate, Mueller-gate, Impeachment-gate, public shootings to disarm us, etc. etc.) it becomes obvious where the REAL disease lies.

    Can anyone think of a better way to start WWIII than to play the US against China? I can’t – and I doubt the zionists can, either.

    • Replies: @S
  173. A premise for some for the “U.S. behind corona”- theory in this thread has been that infected U.S. personnel in Wuhan for the military games accidentally released the virus and this started the epidemic there.

    This has been countered by others with the reasonable argument that then we should by now have had an explosive growth in the USA.

    But what if some individual – being a deep state operative embedded with the group of U.S. athletes – deliberately let loose the virus in Wuhan just before leaving? So that no one in the U.S. delegation was infected?

    • Replies: @Parfois1
  174. JAH says:

    I appreciate a website that allows different points of view. I will defend the right for this author to say what he wants a to say. However, this author is a complete Marxist liar. I know you hate the USA, and there reasons to do so, but that does not make the Chinese government good. This author is an indoctrinated fool. Just because the CIA is bad does not make the Communist government good. There can be two evils at one time.

  175. Iris says:
    @Johnwho

    Yesterday, a Cuban medical team made up of 52 health professionals, some of whom with experience combating Ebola in Africa, arrived to Milan on request of Italian Health authorities to help fight the Covid-19 pandemic. It is the 6th or 7th medical mission Cuba sends abroad since the pandemic broke out.

    I haven’t read any such news about US , despite the many US military bases in Italy.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  176. Half-Jap says:
    @DB Cooper

    We owe ancient China, not the modern one, which has been on life support culturally.
    But provide all evidence that will withstand scrutiny in the court of law about your allegations.
    Too bad the Japs have been weak dogs for the Yanks. If we operated on a pre-war mentality, just fckin bring it on. China has more crimes under Communism than Japs ever did, or others, except fckin Brits. Those wankers.

  177. Here is an interesting new fact.

    Some months before the coronavirus outbreak, Trump fired the CDC rep, an epidemiologist, based in China with the job of keeping track of disease developments there.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-cdc-exclusiv/exclusive-us-axed-cdc-expert-job-in-china-months-before-virus-outbreak-idUSKBN21910S

    Another bit of news says a number of italian doctors are now questioning deaths they saw last year, thinking they may have been the virus. Maybe Italy was the first outbreak?

    Whatever, the great Orange One and his Big Fat Idiot sidekick, Pompeo, should stop slurring the Chinese when they speak of the disease. They’ve generated a lot of needless hostility.

  178. The 1918 flu was avian in nature, something that was only recently confirmed by reconstructing it from preserved tissue samples.

    “The fully reconstructed 1918 virus was striking in terms of its ability to quickly replicate, i.e., make copies of itself and spread infection in the lungs of infected mice. For example, four days after infection, the amount of 1918 virus found in the lung tissue of infected mice was 39,000 times higher than that produced by one of the comparison recombinant flu viruses”

    https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/reconstruction-1918-virus.html

    Routine mutations should not come as a shock.

  179. Hacienda says:
    @antibeast

    This ain’t what it used to be.

    It never is. But, PE and Buffet indicators are back where they should be. And many have HUGE stockpile in real estate and you have unprecedented generational transfer of wealth from Silents, Boomers to Millenials. Plus China is actually in better position economically in 2020 than in 2008. Remember, also, that in 1930s there was no such thing as Asian capital.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  180. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Ureneck

    I have lived in China, for a little over a year. China is no paradise, but it is benevolent enough.

    I had the sniffles and a persistent cold.

    Went to a hospital to get myself checked out. It wasn’t a fancy hospital for expats, just the local place. They immediately insisted on taking my temperature, and I consented to them taking some blood.

    An hour later, they were relieved that nothing unusual had shown up. Apparently, the staff were concerned about SARS, and the doctors asked me how long I had had the cold. Then I was given some cold medicine, both conventional and herbal, and told to monitor myself.

    So, we can conclude that they were fairly diligent for a small public hospital, in what was then a developing country. That hospital was pretty clean, well-lit and fully-staffed, considering it was in a not-very-nice neighborhood, and it was around 11:00PM at night. The people’s taxes at work, eh?

    China is, I would say, sufficiently benevolent. Nothing to write home about, but good enough.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
    • Thanks: Iris
  181. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Truth3

    Damn, I absolutely believe you did have Ft. Detrick 19 Virus! For 30 days!

    Glad you’re alive and OK.

  182. FB says: • Website
    @Factorize

    …patients can be traced to coviral Eve’s RNA…

    The phylogeny shown would suggest…

    …using nanopores…

    Thanks for nothing, pinhead…

    If you actually KNEW something, you would be able to convey that in language that the laypeople here can understand…

  183. S says:
    @DaveE

    Can anyone think of a better way to start WWIII than to play the US against China?

    I certainly agree.

    It pushes forward decoupling of US industry from China, a process already started to an extent with Trump’s ‘trade wars’. This is something you would want if preparing for WWIII and to whether what at first might start out as a conventional war.

    The development of, and tapping into, what amounts to oil reserves with the shale fracking so as to have, at least temporarily, complete oil independence would be another on the ‘to do’ list in preparation for a world war.

    The demonization of the Chinese (and vice-versa) regarding the US would be another. As is known ‘the Ruskies’ have already been demonized. Trump has exercized war powers by invoking the Defense Production Act, and has placed a ‘suggestion’ in people’s minds of a world war by calling the anti-viral effort a ‘war’. [Also see upthread comment link below in regards to a manufactured Hegelian Dialectic in place since 1776 and 1789.]

    https://www.unz.com/article/last-man-standing/#comment-3791116

  184. @Truth3

    Anyone interested can check your posting history and see how active you were posting on this site, including New Year’s Eve, during that period of a month from the end of December, and judge for themselves whether you are telling the Truth about being in the state you describe. I don’t believe you.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Truth3
    , @Truth3
    , @Anonymous
  185. @Ron Unz

    I thought I’d erased this.
    It was disconnected.

    I don’t think you’re a gullible idiot, quite the contrary: I struggle to follow the logic, the statistics, and the forecasts that those of you who are much smarter than I am, come up with.

    My state, which is neither California nor New York, is now in lockdown.

    I’m more afraid of some sinister governmental entities using lockdown status-panic to execute a full spectrum coup — something that my no-longer-mathematically-acute brain can comprehend, than I am of contracting coronavirus and dying a horrible death (over night I went from “senior citizen” to “elderly”).

    The presence of so many future tenses in discussions of need for lockdown gives me pause, with those futurities supported by mathematical models.

    My brain is too tightly wrapped around a cynical but not tightly disciplined understanding of what has happened in the past, and I see some of those same actors and mindsets active behind the scenes in the current circumstance.

    If the gods are kind, Ron, we will both be wrong.

    • Replies: @Truth3
    , @obwandiyag
  186. Anonymous[368] • Disclaimer says:
    @clip

    A bioweapon attack against Italy? Maybe you’ve given yourself some Chinese herbal-vaping injury to the brain

  187. Anonymous[368] • Disclaimer says:
    @Maiasta

    Japanese are like the Vulcans while Chinese are like the Romulans.

  188. Iris says:
    @refl

    I take Corona for the new Aids (which means stage managed psycosis in my view). Sadly, it has the serious potential to disrupt our societies, if we don’t manage to cut through this web of disinfornation

    There are valid opinions expressing that the reaction to the Covid-19 pandemic is exaggerated and that the treatment may cause more harm than the actual ailment. See this interesting opinion from a professor of epidemiology:

    A Fiasco in the Making? As the Coronavirus Pandemic Takes Hold, We Are Making Decisions Without Reliable Data

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/5707168

    A few facts are certain:
    – The pandemic is proving an unbearable burden to Heath Services. In the UK, cancer treatments are now being delayed for 2 weeks so hospitals can face the pandemic. France is already at the stage where patients are being triaged for access to respirators.
    – Health personnel is unacceptably affected. The 4 French doctors who died were in the frontline, aged between 60 to 70 yo, but that is not a sufficient excuse to expect their younger colleagues to continue exposing themselves to excessive risks.

    The extreme alternative to rescue National Health Systems would be to let the elderly to die; such a rogue occurrence happened in Spain, where care homes have been found abandoned with patients dead/dying of Covid-19 inside.

    At this present time, such a decision would be totally inacceptable in Europe; we still (supposedly) value human life and we are heavily-taxed for the state to deliver universal health care.

    • Replies: @refl
  189. utu says:
    @utu

    Actually I made a mistake. Instead of 1700 it should have been 17,000 infections which gives 70 days instead of 54 which means that patient zero counting back form Jan 22 is pushed to 1st half of November.

    To see how the result depends on choice of parameters I try different parameters. First the formula for Ron Unz’s patient zero date estimation method (see comment #83):

    ∆d=D+DP*ln(N(d)/CFR)/ln(2) where

    CFR – case fatality risk (mortality rate)
    N(d) – number of deaths on day d
    DP – infection doubling period
    D – average number of days from infection to death
    ∆p – number of days from d to patient zero

    So if we use d=Jan 22 N(d)=17 from worldometers.info; CFR=0.01, DP=5, D=15 then ∆d=68.5. But the doubling period DP is likely higher and between 6.3 and 7.3 according to CDC estimate.
    https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/20-0146_article
    Then ∆d would be 82 and 93. If we increase CFR form 0.01 to 0.015 ∆d gets reduced by 4 days. If we reduce N(d) by 25% ∆d gets reduced by 3 days.

    If we use data from Jan 23 N(Jan 23)=25 and Jan 24 N(Jan 24)=41 the zero patient date is pushed back by 2 and 6 days respectively.

    The mortality statistics from Jan 22-Jan 25 in China are not inconsistent with the hypothesis that the first infection in Wuhan occurred in late October 2019.

    • LOL: FB
    • Replies: @FB
    , @Sean
  190. DB Cooper says:
    @Half-Jap

    “But provide all evidence that will withstand scrutiny in the court of law about your allegations.”

    What are you disputing? Rape of Nanking? Unit 731?

    “China has more crimes under Communism than Japs ever did, or others, except fckin Brits. ”

    If Japan had not invaded China Chinese Communist would not have a chance to rise up and gain power, Half Jap. And I am not from mainland China. Fuck Japan.

  191. Truth3 says:
    @Commentator Mike

    I don’t give a shit if moron Joo assholes don’t believe me.

    Truth. All I ever say or do or write.

    Ask Satan for the Tape of My Life when you go, Asshole Mike.

    Besides… Posting while sick took my mind off my misery. Nothing else I could do.

    And I couldn’t spread it thru the Internet, so THANK ME for not visiting you then.

    Assholes like you are going to Hell… it’s always important to know who they are.

    Wanted to shapen my pitchfork, so to speak.

    From my perch in Purgatory I get to poke you on your way down to Hell.

    Putting a road-bump just outside Purgatory Window. Get you when you bounce.

    So… Fork, Meet Asshole Mike. Up yours asshole.

  192. @Ron unz
    Couple of facts:
    1. Wherever there is a large pop of Chinese immigrants and travelers there are way bigger numbers.
    2. Chinese people hate Americans, it’s in our evolutionary genes of disgust that keeps us safe from strangers.
    3. New York has bigger numbers than any country/state/city in the world and New Yorkers are now leaving there to spread it to Red States they talk shit about all the time, just like the chi com niggers in Hubei.
    4. China contained 84% (67,000) of the infected in Hubei/Wuhan and only 16% in the rest of the highly populated country.
    5. I hate these people, New Yorkers, Californians and China
    6. You’re welcome geniuses and lucky I had a brain injury at 5 years old

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  193. FB says: • Website

    National cohesion and coordination were amazing, thanks to the Communist Party.

    This is the bottom line here, and if nothing else, this article is very much necessary for REALISTIC reflection…[not yowls of indignation from the well known indoctrinated pinheads here…]

    This graphic brings everything back down to earth and gives us a meaningful picture at a glance…

    At the bottom of the graphic is the most interesting part…number of cases per million population…China has by far the LOWEST figure of any of the most severely hit countries…at just 56 per million…in other words, China has wrestled this virus to the mat, while the US and other ‘democracies’ have not…

    The US RATE is already more than double [and likely to get much worse, considering the uncertainty about actual numbers in the US at this early stage…]

    Even South Korea which has been hailed by the US govt as a ‘model’ [because they’re not ‘communist’ god forbid] has a rate THREE times higher than China’s…

    Interestingly, Germany’s infection rate is even higher than Iran’s…although with very few deaths so far…

    Also I will note that there is a lot of quite stupid arguing back and forth here about things which are absolutely unknowable at this point in time…like the virus’s rate of growth [doubling period] and the actual mortality rate…

    The total pinhead ‘utu’ has been particularly gumming up this thread with wild extrapolations from the numbers we have floating about…numbers which are quite incomplete and do not in any way allow us to make hard and fast conclusions…

    For me, the only thing we can glean with certainty from the information at hand is the fact that the Chinese have acted very nimbly and have brought this thing under control…

    It may or may not have simply come from an infected bat at that admittedly disgusting ‘wet market’ [incidentally, the CPC is working hard to stamp out these kind of anachronistic elements in Chinese society]…

    HOWEVER…one thing is for certain…and that is the very extreme response from the Chinese government…they moved very hard very quickly…

    Now none of the ‘geniuses’ here trying to read tea leaves have picked up on the obvious…which is to ask WHY did Chinese authorities move so drastically, so quickly…?

    After all, this virus may not be very deadly [Ron Unz’s comments on this are quite reasonable]…but the virus does seem to spread quickly and effectively…and at least some of those who get it require intensive medical care, which could strain any health system to the breaking point, as is happening in Italy now…

    We know NOW that in the 1918 flu pandemic, most of the deaths, over 90 percent, were caused not by the flu virus itself, but from secondary bacteria infections…scientists now say that the Spanish flu virus rarely was fatal by itself…but like Corona it did spread quickly…

    In today’s world of air travel, virus spread is even quicker…and although we now have antibiotics to treat bacterial infection [far deadlier throughout history than any virus], we only have so many hospital beds, ventilators etc…which means a large number of people may die [huge numbers even] simply because the health capacity is overwhelmed…

    So it is idiotic to say now that this whole thing is just overblown…we have not reached the critical mass yet where thousands or even millions of people need a hospital bed, yet only one in ten will get one…

    Ron Unz is again correct on this point [despite the source being NYT]…prudence must be exercised here…and the bottom line is that the Chinese have shown an absolutely incredible capability here in taking care of their people…

    But this drama is far from over…we can sit here an fantasize about how it started, but the important thing is it’s here now and we really don’t know how bad this thing will actually get…NOBODY KNOWS…[certainly not ‘utu’ and other complete pinheads…]

    The important thing is that people stand back and look at how China has taken care of its people…shutting down the entire country, and winning the battle quickly…and see if our own people in charge show a similar competence, and more important, a true concern for the well being of the people…

  194. utu says:
    @Erebus

    I agree with you that this is possible that Global Times article is an official damage control to squash the rumors so their denial is a lie, though for Godfree Roberts China does not lie:

    https://www.unz.com/article/last-man-standing/#comment-3791085
    I’ve been studying China for 60 years and have never caught their government in a lie.

    So if China did not lie in Global Times then Godfree Roberts lied by confabulating that the 5 athletes were American and that they did not have malaria but rather covid-19 and also you lied by confabulating the same in the comment on the Kevin Barrett thread.

  195. @Ron Unz

    hundreds of thousands or even millions of Americans may die over the next few months, while our national economy has been wrecked.
    The latter statement is inarguably true. The suffering inflicted by the shutdowns is real, and the number of businesses that will shutdown and never recover will be huge.

    The potential number of lives lost, by contrast, is speculation, and extrapolation from very poor data.

    Fortunately, the Dutch have continued to pursue the “herd immunity” strategy, so we have a Western society serving as a control group.

    Unz will at least publish the results in a few months. The bought-and-paid-for media won’t raise it at all.

  196. DB Cooper says:
    @Half-Jap

    “But provide all evidence that will withstand scrutiny in the court of law about your allegations.”
    What are you disputing? Rape of Nanking? Unit 731?

    “China has more crimes under Communism than Japs ever did, or others, except fckin Brits. ”

    If Japan had not invaded China Chinese Communist would not have a chance to rise up and gain power, Half Jap. And I am not from mainland China. The Nationalist government was fighting Japan while the Communist was exploiting this tragedy to recruit and gain power. So Japan not only brutally invaded China but also was instrumental in making the Communist gain power. So double fuck Japan. Ever wonder why the Koreans also hate Japan?

    Today Japan is a shell of its former self and is going downhill for the last thirty years. Long line of homeless Japs waiting for a bowl of thin gruel in the morning is not an uncommon scene in Japan now. What a wonderful scene to see this pathetic Japs begging for a bowl of thin gruel! I wish Jap people all the worst. When is the next Tusnami?

  197. “National cohesion and coordination were amazing, thanks to the Communist Party. They coordinated everything and filled all the gaps, no questions asked.”

    Look how easy it is to maintain order when “citizens” have no rights or freedom! Party on!

    • Replies: @Chinaman
  198. Corrupt says:

    While I don’t subscribe to the authors conspiracy theory, I do believe that the virus was spread earlier than is acknowledged, based on personal experience. I was in pretty good shape for my age, hiking 2-5 miles most days. After visiting the kids (in Seattle of all places) late November/Early December I became sick later in December, with a terrible non-productive cough that left me lightheaded after a coughing fit. I eventually got to my GP just after New Years. Two courses of antibiotics failed to have any effect, and it was off to see a pulmonary specialist. The Dr. thought that I might have bronchitis or asthma exacerbated by a cold. Fortunately, XRays showed no pneumonia. Blood tests indicated no flu or corona virus (the non-novel type). I’m not sure if either would have still shown up in a blood test by the time my blood was tested (I’ll be the first to admit I have no medical experience or depth of knowledge in the subject, so anyone able to do so is welcome to comment). I eventually started recovering early-mid February. During the period while I was sick, I noted the inability to smell or taste, which is now being bandied about as a possible symptom (the wife even joked about feeding me things I don’t normally eat).

    One final ?coincidence?… While I was sick, we were concerned about my wife also getting sick as she is dealing with some immunological problems of her own, but she never got sick. Part of her treatment includes the anti-malarial drugs being investigated as possible treatment for the virus. I realize this is all anecdotal, but given the current situation believe that it is at least possible, if not actually probable.

  199. To Godfree Roberts:

    Please can you provide the source documentation for this:

    “•42 employees of the Oriental Hotel were diagnosed with COVID-19, becoming the first cluster in Wuhan. At the time only 7 people from the market had been thus diagnosed (and treated before the hotel staff). All 7 had contact with the 42 from the hotel. From this source, the virus spread to the rest of China.”

    Is this just anecdotal evidence or is there a published source?

    Thanks

    • Replies: @TT
  200. @Godfree Roberts

    America is mad at Wuhan for spreading it. Now New Yorkers are doing the same as they leave their shithole city. This is my proof this is all a hoax and our govt does not care. If it was real they would not let people leave New York and go to Florida, Salt Lake, Virginia etc… Seal New York’s borders, nobody in or out

  201. lysias says:
    @Maiasta

    There were awful massacres during the Manchu conquest of China, but the Manchu Ching dynasty then proceeded to provide China with over a century of prosperity and good rule. For all we know, a Japanese dynasty ruling China might have done the same.

    • Replies: @d dan
  202. Truth3 says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    I don’t think you’re a gullible idiot, quite the contrary:

    Nice thing to say to the Guy that allows us all this fun.

    Maybe want to try again?

    • Agree: Three of Swords
  203. antibeast says:
    @Hacienda

    It never is. But, PE and Buffet indicators are back where they should be. And many have HUGE stockpile in real estate and you have unprecedented generational transfer of wealth from Silents, Boomers to Millenials. Plus China is actually in better position economically in 2020 than in 2008. Remember, also, that in 1930s there was no such thing as Asian capital.

    The problem is the US financial system which makes those P/E ratios irrelevant. If you look at what’s happening in the credit markets, it’s pretty scary out there with too much debt piled sky high speculating on financial assets such as mortgage-backed securities, junk bonds, derivatives, equities, corporate stock buybacks, etc. Those financial bets are now unraveling in the credit markets which is why there was a liquidity squeeze in the repo markets back in September 2019. Everybody is now liquidating their positions in stocks and bonds to get cash in order to settle their debts. That’s called “systemic margin calls” which is deflating the entire financial system.

    The Boomers are retiring and need their 401Ks to pay for their retirement. But with stocks crashing and zero interest rates, how are their collapsing 401Ks going to fund their retirement? Then you have the Millenials who don’t have enough earning capacity to support the Social Security System which is supposed to payout welfare benefits to retiring Boomers. Those retirees could sell their houses and live off their equity. But that’s going to crash the housing market because Millenials don’t have enough income to buy those houses.

    I would wait until AFTER the election in November before making any major moves because Trump won’t be able to resolve these systemic risks in the financial system in just six months time. It took Obama almost four years before the economy recovered from the 2008 financial meltdown.

    My gut feeling is that this Wall Street Crash of 2020 is the mother of all financial meltdowns.

    • Agree: S
    • Replies: @Hacienda
  204. Truth3 says:
    @Commentator Mike

    You Too utu.

    Another Joo heard from.

    Gotta put some pine tar on that pitchfork handle.

  205. @Godfree Roberts

    Went to your Guacha link. Photos show one patient, not “servicemen” (plural). Nothing in the photos or article to suggest he is American. Appearance and body language appear to be African.

  206. Ko says:

    Perhaps the soldiers were unwittingly infected, and they were the carriers of the virus. The question is, who set this fire?

  207. @FB

    If you look at China Map, 84% contained in Hubei, 16% to the rest of China. They contained it well before the globalist spread it around the entire world via airplanes and cruise ships. It is an elite disease spread to the common folk of many nations. 67,000 in Hubei and only 17,000 across the rest of China. New York city has 8 million and has over 20,000 cases so far. Now they are leaving to spread it to Red States they hate.

  208. Agent76 says:

    Mar 24, 2020 Trump is right ‘the cure for coronavirus is worst than the disease’

    While the elderly and those with chronic diseases should be isolated and protected, it is important the coronavirus response does not cause the world to sink to a global depression, according to former Australian Conservatives Senator Cory Bernardi.

    Mar 21, 2020 Medical Martial Law 2020

    As the lockdowns go into place and the military takes to the streets in country after country, the decades of preparation for medical martial law are finally paying off for the pandemic planners.

  209. Polemos says:
    @Tom Welsh

    onebornfree has always been against all government, from village elders to globalist technocrats. He isn’t being inconsistent.

  210. DB Cooper says:
    @Half-Jap

    “Too bad the Japs have been weak dogs for the Yanks. If we operated on a pre-war mentality, just fckin bring it on. ”

    The US should have dropped hundreds of atomic bombs to wipe off the Jap cretins. And Jap mutt like you need to be exterminated too. You should kill yourself. Now go fuck yourself you stupid Jap shit.

  211. anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @Commentator Mike

    There are still many unknown variables atm that may account for the differing death rates. In any case, actual evidence holds more weight than accusations.

  212. Ko says:
    @Ron Unz

    “Even in such extraordinarily implausible circumstances, that would mean the infection took off in the US at least as early as it did in Wuhan.”

    Or, as shown in Nathan Rich’s video, there suspicious clusters and outbreaks attributed to vaping, and then flu cases rose. Perhaps it was Covid-19 all along. Rich’s speculation there was a leak and outbreak that was covered up is compelling. The best way to cover-up was to infect some of the soldiers who spread it to Wuhan, then blame China.

  213. Truth3 says:

    Jooz travel.

    Have to do something with all that stolen money.

  214. anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @22pp22

    I really appreciate this website and I really miss Razib Khan – even his bad temper.

    Razib has still been blogging on his own site for years.

    gnxp.com

  215. aandrews says:
    @22pp22

    “Mao-made famine is, it seems, something you don’t just forget.”

    I’ve long noted that people that date back to the Great Depression as kids (at least the ones in the hinterlands) have a “food kink”.

  216. Anonymous[545] • Disclaimer says:
    @Commentator Mike

    He said he was sick, not comatose. Online posting is not an Olympic sport.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  217. Krollchem says:
    @Parfois1

    Could this case extend the timeline of case Zero back to November?

    “25-year-old Connor Reed
    A Welshman who caught the coronavirus in China has described how the deadly disease hit him “like a train” leaving him “suffocating” and in blinding pain for weeks.
    Connor Reed, from Llandudno, got ill while working as an English teacher in Wuhan.
    The 25-year-old described how it started as “just a sniffle” on November 25 – a month before authorities officially announced the virus – but over the next three-and-a-half weeks he got increasingly ill and was unable to move.”
    https://www.zerohedge.com/health/its-not-just-flu-heres-why-you-definitely-dont-want-catch-covid-19

  218. FB says: • Website
    @utu

    The mortality statistics from Jan 22-Jan 25 in China are not inconsistent with the hypothesis that the first infection in Wuhan occurred in late October 2019.

    That’s like saying the theory of relativity is not inconsistent with the hypothesis that the moon is made of cheese…

    It is meaningless gibberish…and a textbook example of the misapplication of math to a problem where crucial variables are NOT KNOWN…

    For instance…we have no idea of the actual death rate [CFR]…you are assuming 0.01 which is one percent…and allowing for a range up to 1.5 percent, a tiny spread…how do you know this with such PRECISION at this point in time…?

    Nobody does…that variable could be up [or down] by almost an order of magnitude…which would put it at ten percent [OR one tenth of a percent]…for instance, five percent has been bandied about and that number seems to fit the Italy numbers we have so far…

    Even using five percent [0.05] changes the total number of days to 57, which means early December as the beginning of the outbreak in China…not late October…

    Then there is doubling period, which again is right now just a stab in the dark…again, you make the blunder of unrealistically constraining the possible range for this number, between five and 7 days…which is a daily rate of growth of between 10 and 15 percent…there is absolutely no grounds for extrapolating such a fine resolution from the very vague hard information we have at this point in time…

    The rate of growth could in fact be over 30 percent per day…which means a doubling period of under THREE days…that would cut the total days from the outbreak to less than 40 and further pull forward the patient zero date in China to about mid December…

    OR, those UNKNOWN variables of death rate and doubling period could be skewed in the opposite direction…which would mean patient zero and the date of the outbreak pushed back even EARLIER than October…there is no way to know…

    You are just pulling numbers out of your ass…previously here you took up all kinds of bandwidth similarly chasing ghosts with regard to the Italy numbers…making a big stink out of nothing at all…

    Now, in hindsight, the Italy picture is emerging and beginning to make more sense, with actual doctors coming out and saying there were suspicious cases going back as far as October…

    • Troll: Truth3
    • Replies: @utu
    , @DaveE
  219. @onebornfree

    I think the author is throwing teddy out of the pram. Someone put the dummy back, its getting noisy.

  220. ricpic says:
    @onebornfree

    Finally someone stands up for American liberty!

  221. The idea the the U.S. started this thing is far fetched. Far more likely it was either the Chinese Military experiment gone wrong or an accidental release from Wuhan Market.

    Usually the most likely is the reality. Chinks and moron propagandists can fuck themselves.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  222. @Bruce Arney

    I would say it’s a problem of Globalism via air and sea. At the same time that is still our leaders/failures part

    • Replies: @John Chuckman
  223. Anon[596] • Disclaimer says:
    @22pp22

    The Imperial Japanese were anti-Western Sinophiles who wanted to use Chinese manpower to push Kiwis like yourself and other Westerners out of Asia. I’m not sure why you would be pro-Imperial Japan.

  224. Hacienda says:
    @antibeast

    The problem is the US financial system which makes those P/E ratios irrelevant.

    Which rests upon a credit system that is pretty precise. IOW, they don’t give money to any fool that wants it.

    Americans are actually a frugal people. And household debt as percentage of GDP was decreasing last 10 years.

    As long a people are allowed to get back to work, travel, and spend fairly soon, I think the economy will do alright. April/May marks the end of flu and cold season, and probably CV-19. As long as there are no longer any more blacks swans (and that’s a big if in 2020), the stock market is going to be extremely hot this summer, if not already.

  225. Anonymous[111] • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    It was the Chinese who civilized the Japanese in the last two millenniums you fucking moron.

    Speaking as an ethnic Chinese born and raised outside China, I would much rather visit and live in Japan today than in China. Most people today view the Japanese as polite, quiet, clean, civilized and honest, the opposite of the Chinese who are viewed as rude, loud, dirty, uncouth and dishonest. China would’ve been better off had it been taken over and ruled by the Japanese, it’d be more like Taiwan and South Korea. Ethnic pride is a stupid thing. Get over it. Japanese culture is far superior to Chinese culture in most regards, despite China’s richer history, this is true not just in Japan and China, but in their diasporas everywhere.

    The same can be said of Germany and Europe. Europe today would’ve been much better off had it been taken over and ruled by Germany. German culture is very much like Japanese culture, perhaps a little less polite(colder) but more honest. It is the most honest culture in the world. Southern and Eastern Europe would’ve been much better off had they been ruled by Germany.

    Most of the UK’s African, Mideast and Subcon colonies would’ve been better off had they continued to be ruled by the UK.

    Ethnic pride is a stupid thing. We all need to get over it. There are some cultures that are simply superior to others. German, Japanese, traditional English cultures are superior cultures that the rest of the world should emulate, not denigrate.

    • Agree: Bookish1, Half-Jap
  226. Agent76 says:

    Mar 24, 2020 We’re Living in 12 Monkeys

    Welcome to teleprompter-free, unscripted analysis of The Matrix we live in.

  227. @Ron Unz

    Thank you, Ron, for providing this forum allowing the expression and exchange information and ideas.

    And to the horror and dismay of our leaders, the Coronavirus just ignores their propaganda, regardless of its outstanding quality.

    That these leaders and their propaganda writers have so bought into their own make-believe world is truly amazing.

  228. d dan says:
    @lysias

    “There were awful massacres during the Manchu conquest of China, but the Manchu Ching dynasty then proceeded to provide China with over a century of prosperity and good rule. For all we know, a Japanese dynasty ruling China might have done the same.”

    Sure, same reasoning can be applied to US or anywhere. IF Japanese managed to conquer Hawaii, or IF the British won the revolutionary war, or IF Hitler managed to conquer Russia,…blah, blah, blah.

    By your stupid reasoning, every bad thing might be good eventually.

    • Agree: Maiasta
    • Troll: Gleimhart Mantooso
  229. @Anonymous

    LIEBER is a traitor of the worst type. Thousands Talents is for Chinese communists, not Harvard communists. I bet he grew up with bed time stories of pogroms. For me it was Paul Revere and not Anne Frank

    • Agree: Truth3
  230. @Realist

    Keep in mind genius that this was spread via air and sea from China. One born free is right, just ask Ukraine commie

    • Replies: @Realist
  231. jim jones says:

    If China’s so GREAT, why do so many FLEE when they have the chance?

    • Replies: @Lo
  232. Will says:
    @Ron Unz

    But the facts proved otherwise, including the very rapid spread and growing death toll in Italy and most recently in New York.

    That’s not an argument. The fact that it exists in other countries or spread so quickly doesn’t rule out it being a bioweapon. In fact, if you wanted to use a bioweapon and disguise its employment as such you might take care that it be disseminated in multiple countries.

  233. Realist says:
    @BrokenheartAmerican

    Keep in mind genius that this was spread via air and sea from China.

    No one knows, that it is supposition…so yes in relation to you I am a genius.

    Citing One Born Free of a brain…as right, shows your place on the left of the curve.

    • LOL: Parfois1
    • Replies: @BrokenheartAmerican
  234. SafeNow says:

    Yesterday, L.A.’s mayor Garcetti, near the start of his daily press conference, uttered the following. He referenced the people who, on the beach or the canyon trails, were not observing social distancing. He then admonished them: “We know who you are.” Two days ago, a spokesman at Mr. Trump’s press conference referenced price-gougers. He then said “We are coming for you.” I never thought I would hear government high officials speaking like this. Attorney general Barr, to his credit, yesterday walked back “we are coming for you” when he described how gouging has been made a crime, and prosecutors can therefore now proceed with cases. Nevertheless, the language I quoted above is worrying to me. This is not OT because I feel it is indicative of how government officials think.

  235. Iris says:
    @Erebus

    The mention of 1 million victims in the NYT article is second-hand information taken from this study carried out by a team of epidemiologists at Imperial College London:

    https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

    It is a good study by competent professionals. They have made projections to see how non-pharmaceutical mitigation and suppression measures would impact the progression of the Covid-19 pandemic in the US and UK.

    In the unlikely absence of any measures being undertaken, they calculate that 81% of both populations will be infected after 3 months, and that the US and UK maximum death toll would be respectively 2.2 and 0.52 millions.

    They go on to examine the effect of various containment measures on the fatality rate, but state:

    In addition, even if all patients were able to be treated, we predict there would still be in the order of 250,000 deaths in GB, and 1.1-1.2 million in the US

    I already posted this link to your intention in Dr Barrett’s thread. Best.

    • Replies: @9/11 Inside job
  236. utu says:
    @FB

    I suspect you might be quite smart, though I am not sure, but I am certain that you are suffering from a serious personality disorder that most likely keeps sabotaging potential accomplishments that otherwise your talents could produce.

    • Replies: @FB
  237. @BrokenheartAmerican

    Globalism is only “a problem” to Luddites and victims of the infectious disease called American Patriotism.

    We all know what the great Dr Johnson said about Patriotism.

    It was, by the way, Thomas Jefferson he mainly had in mind when he said it.

    Readers may enjoy:

    https://chuckmanwordsincomments.wordpress.com/2019/04/03/john-chuckman-comment-the-remarkable-case-of-thomas-jefferson-he-wasnt-at-all-what-so-many-think-he-was-how-the-needs-of-politics-can-twist-and-exploit-historical-figures-and-myth-making-as-a/

    • Disagree: Dannyboy
    • Replies: @BrokenheartAmerican
  238. DaveE says:
    @22pp22

    “Western traitors gave them our technology on a platter and filled our research labs with their people.”

    Yes. And I have some experience with these “western traitors” as you accurately put it. Much, if not most of the industrial espionage in the US happens straight out the back door of the US Patent and Trademark Office, usually via a small so-called “country” on the eastern Mediterranean.

    • LOL: Iris
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  239. DB Cooper says:
    @Anonymous

    “Speaking as an ethnic Chinese born and raised outside China, I would much rather visit and live in Japan today than in China. ”

    Go and live in Kawasaki city Japan then, dumb ass.

    • Replies: @Anon
  240. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @BrokenheartAmerican

    2. Chinese people hate Americans

    Naaah, totally not my experience on the ground. Most are neutral to Americans, not interested, and not curious. Chinese are just normal people.

    • Replies: @BrokenheartAmerican
  241. DB Cooper says:
    @Anonymous

    “Most people today view the Japanese as polite, quiet, clean, civilized and honest, the opposite of the Chinese who are viewed as rude, loud, dirty, uncouth and dishonest. ”

    As a child growing up outside of China myself I remember male Japs has a reputation of pissing on the streets. At least this is what I heard from the adults. Civilized my a$$. They probably don’t do it anymore. Culture change when a society becomes more prosperous. But what I said is still true. It was the Chinese who civilized the Japanese in the last two millenniums.

  242. March 23rd, 2020. Origins of CoronaVirus – Metadata Says Ft. Detrick:

  243. refl says:
    @Iris

    The article by John Ioannidis provides an important counternarraitive. Thanks for linking to it. I happily do it again

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/5707168

    The certain facts you link to can be read in a different light:
    – If in the UK other treatments are being delayed (same in Germany) then this is in a huge part due to the situation that hospitals have been done down by decades of austerity – but they won’t tell that the disaster is of their own, very conscious making. And this disaster includes that old people in hospital tend to get worse, not better, if the conditions are poor.
    – The same could be said for the french doctors. Maybe the decision to put doctors of that age group in the frontline was no good decision. They died as heros in their profession, but maybe the superiors could have provided for more and younger staff and give these people a calmer working environment. Also they have died of austerity rather, not Corona.
    – Your story from Spain reminds me of things that I was told about when living there in the early 90s. It probably got worse in times of austerity.

    in Europe; we still (supposedly) value human life

    There we have it: “We” – you and me and all the non-psychopaths suffering from this crisis, do.
    But the godfathers of the austere western world economy don’t.
    I do not know what happened in China, but I can see that they have a health system that in the wake of some serious health crisis can send doctors to the formerly first world countries in Europe.

    I will call this virus austerity, not Corona. The pandemic is possibly fiction, the consequences and the real reasons are not.
    So noone needs to calculate infection rates here. Look for the forest, not the trees!

  244. ‘What if Japan took down China? ‘

    rule China = eventually you become Chinese, your people, your territory, your culture, your language, your identity…all Sinicized and become Chinese. This happened to all the ruling class of China, no matter who they were, they Sinicize themselves. Maybe the only half-qualified exceptions is Mongols (outer Mongolia separation under the support of USSR at China’s weakest time), but again there is a reason it is called outer Mongolia.

    This is one important method how China made it the current size, population, and becomes a blackhole. You don’t want to rule China if you are in Chinese neighborhood, unless you are some Chinese want to be. You can’t rule from distance made China a full colonial vessel, not even at its weakest time. Direct rule is a must for China.

    What if Japan took down China? No, no such if, Japan won’t win. Mao has saw the victory at early days of CCP and made famous article to illustrate the reasons. No, not even without the two nuclear bombs which accelerated the ending.
    But, let’s go on with this disgusting & interesting IF.
    There will be a new nation that is neither Chinese nor Japanese we are familiar with for now. This new nation will fight the WWII with east Asia as a start at least.
    If this new nation fails WWII, again, there will be another PRC. Same old story. Meaningless IF.
    If this new nation, say Japina wins WWII, it would have taken SEA and then dominant Asia at least. That’s the IF we can continue to talk about.
    Is Japina still a ally of Germany? Did German also win the WWII and Hitler grasp Europe?
    In this scenario, is US even involved in WWII? Maybe not?
    Does USSR get divided by German and Japina? Will German and Japina get satisfied with Europe and Asia? What about those colonial states? Will they win the independence if the Axis power win? If US don’t go for the Axis, will the Axis eventually go to the US?

    It’s a global world. Human destinies are all connected. You don’t simply give some IF and quarantine it locally in some place you don’t really care, and make your fantasy dreams of IF with the people you don’t care at all.
    I thought COVID-19 has told you something. No, some people never learn.

  245. China Wins Big With Covid-19.

    This may cost them dearly because key people will not be fooled about their responsibility.

    Proposed US Senate Bill condemns China’s cover-up and also calls for designing a mechanism for compensation:

    https://www.hawley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/Hawley-China-Coronavirus-Resolution.pdf

    Draft text excerpt:

    [MORE]

    Now, therefore, be it Resolved, That the Senate—

    (1) condemns the decision by the Government of the People’s Republic of China to hide the emer- gence and spread of COVID–19 within its borders during the initial weeks of the outbreak;

    (2) assesses that the decision by the Govern- ment of the People’s Republic of China to hide the emergence and spread of COVID–19 during that pe- riod almost certainly contributed to the rapid spread of that disease throughout the Indo-Pacific region, Europe, and the rest of the world;

    (3) finds that the Government of the People’s Republic of China should be held accountable for the impact, of its decision to hide the emergence and spread of COVID–19, on the lives and livelihoods of the people of the United States and other nations;

    (4) calls for an international investigation led by public health officials from the United States and other affected nations to determine how the handling by the Government of the People’s Republic of China of the COVID–19 outbreak prior to March 11, 2020, contributed to the emergence of the COVID–19 global pandemic; and

    (5) calls on the international community to— (A) quantify the harm caused, by the han- dling of the COVID–19 outbreak by the Gov- ernment of the People’s Republic of China, to the health and economic well-being of the peo- ple of the United States and other nations; and (B) design a mechanism for delivering compensation from the Government of the Peo- ple’s Republic of China to all affected nations for the harm caused by its decision to hide the emergence and spread of COVID–19 during the initial weeks of the outbreak.

    • Thanks: DaveE
    • Replies: @Iris
    , @Nils
    , @Robjil
  246. anonymous[589] • Disclaimer says:

    Ironically was it Chinas R&D or was it USA Corporate big pharma in China???

  247. Anon[217] • Disclaimer says:

    Several co-workers at my job had a wierd flu in December through January. It took one guy 5 weeks to get completely over it. We ship out via truck everywhere. I had it for four miserable days, and medicined-up (Dayquil, elderberry, zinc, C, ginger, garlic, throat lozenges constantly). I coughed a great deal during this one, which she complained kept her awake at night. She got it too. Just another flu or covid? Cant say for sure, but theres that.

  248. Booom….It takes some time to recover after these shocking revelations.
    The MSM have to recognize ASAP they hide things or governments hide things. Or they’ re dead meat. (In fact they are already dead meat, – zombie media soon directly fed by the FED maybe, with almost zero true readers or listeners). Because with the increasing number of dead, people won’t forgive. People will say : Despised conspiracy theories were finaly often true ! ( Oh yes they are) and MSM were lying to us all this time ! It could even get a lot of people to revisit what they think about 9/11.
    Among a number of possible conséquences of the actual crisis, I hope one will be : Coronavirus will cost US a lot, so now we can’t afford no longer wars and massive military presence overseas… Sadly it’s not sure !

  249. The problem is that everyone is spewing meaningless statistics particularly if they are coming from the WHO and the CDC and its foundation which makes money from the sale of vaccines. Former employees of the CDC and WHO have accused both organizations of corruption . The larger problem is that there is no accurate or reliable test for Coronavirus/COVID-19 either in the field or in the lab .The new tests reportedly have problems also, have the studies of the tests been peer-reviewd, have the tests gone through double blind-test procedures ? Can someone tell me how you test for COVID-19 in the lab, ?I believe it is very difficult to do so. So when the media reports 36,000 Coronavirus infections , for example, it’s a LIE All the reported infections are likely exaggerated and may be just cases of the seasonal flu. So please stop reciting Coronavirus/COVID-19 statistics until there is a proven and reliable test that has been peer-reviewed and subjected to a double-blind study.

    • Agree: Hempus
    • Thanks: DaveE
    • Replies: @refl
  250. @Anonymous

    I am talking about here in the San Gabriel Valley.
    1. Chinese marry/date Chinese predominately.
    2. Chinese hire Chinese predominately.
    3. Chinese shop at Chinese stores except during pandemic shutdowns brought here from Wuhan via air and sea.
    4. If you say hello as a friendly American they will not even acknowledge you.
    5. Chinese people are rude, weak, and pussies predominately

    • Disagree: John Chuckman
    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  251. @onebornfree

    You can’t handle the truth! Can you? you idiot MAGA,et!

    • Replies: @BrokenheartAmerican
  252. utu says:

    OT: I have heard some good things including the negative reviews by the usual suspects about Nail Ferguson’s 2017 book “The Square and the Tower”

    eg. from Guardian

    “The problem is that there are simply too many strands and too much disparate information for a coherent thesis to emerge. Indeed, such is Ferguson’s restless desire to uncover connectedness that he can sound like a conspiracy theorist, though he is at pains to distance himself from that perspective. ”

    National Review

    “Throughout the book, Ferguson oscillates between a strict definition of networks, as the aggregation of one-to-one relationships in a social system, and a looser definition that encompasses social movements and civil-society associations. For instance, he describes secret societies and fraternal lodges (e.g., the Illuminati and the Freemasons) as networks even when they have a hierarchical structure. It is certainly likely that networks exist within voluntary associations, but to treat the
    associations as identical to networks is like saying a human being is a circulatory system of blood.”

    The CS Monitor

    ‘Ferguson understands that focusing so much on secret societies nudges him close to some fairly shady encampments; as he puts it, part of his purpose is “to rescue the history of networks from the clutches of the conspiracy theorists.” ‘

    • Replies: @Anon
  253. @John Chuckman

    Its fitting then that ze Globalists will die from this disease at some point economically, politically, and physically. Me, I’ll be fishing after tending the garden with thoughts of Paul Revere. Do you have any flights or voyages planned for the near future? LMAO The Lord is in control

    • Agree: Dannyboy
    • Replies: @John Chuckman
  254. @Anonymous

    Covid -19 may well have been present in the US military before 2020, but I think there’s a slim chance that some braggart from Fort Bragg would be revealing this to us here on UR? Even what he wrote

    COVID-19 is a bio-weapon from Ft. Detrick, that has boomerang effects.

    may well be true, but Truth3? And what about his reaction? I’m not convinced by his attempt to allay my doubts about his testimony.

    • Replies: @Truth3
  255. Abbybwood says:
    @Bruce Arney

    What’s the big damn deal anyhoo?!

    Mike Pompeo says publicly that this is all just a “live exercise”!

    No wonder Trump is already bored with it all and wants to call it off by Easter!:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb_logo&v=3Qscuw_3aUk

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  256. Nils says:
    @Stoneman

    Sorry, but the mutations observed in the virus via occupancy intermediate hosts, identified genetically as a bat, a pangolin, and something else equally impossible in the wild, prove it was a curated virus – not something born over time naturally.

    Further, the spike protein on the outside of the virus is derived from HIV.

    The work of the architect is clear as day, but if natural evolution is what you need to sleep at night, so be it.

    • Replies: @FB
  257. DaveE says:
    @FB

    I agree with your assertion that the uncertainties here can be several orders of magnitudes “off”. It’s a little like calculating the “damage” caused by so-called “greenhouse” gasses to the ozone layer. After a point, the uncertainties dwarf the known data and make any further discussion basically pure conjecture.

    Even worse, in this case, is the unstated fact that the geometric growth function of the virus is hardly the only variable and probably not even the dominant one. There’s also a (probably exponential) DEATH function of the virus that competes with the growth function. It’s due to many factors, antibodies, sunlight, diet, precipitation, the immune systems of all creatures concerned and probably 50 other variables which are impossible to calculate, at least currently.

    In other words, these equations are mental masturbation, to put it politely.

    • Replies: @FB
  258. Nils says:
    @Ron Unz

    Taking a step back, which side is appearing to stall and withhold information?

    The US.

    China sequenced the virus first, performed full-on mandatory quarantines, at their own expense.

    IF the US really was worried about this being a pandemic, it would have mobilized the CDC into testing early on – not stalling, not wondering what to do next.

    The government trains for these events frequently, it’s not something new to them. Sometimes these training events go “live”. But I digress…

    Is it a weird coincidence, among the many already enumerated and dissected in the comments, that the response on the American side has been primarily financial?

    What’s in the current bill being debated by both Republicans and Democrats? A digital wallet and currency to perform direct-to-citizen cash injections. Also known as a subset of UBI.

    Why did the US sack Lieber before committing to testing? Why would they be preoccupied so early on with the narrative of virus origins before combating the virus? Unless they already knew what had happened, were modeling it, and basically gaming the next steps carefully to reap the biggest rewards from a bad or deliberate situation.

    • Replies: @Nils
  259. @antibeast

    I don’t know. Maybe you’re right about bats.

    But all these diseases are coming out of china, and they often come from animals.

    So, Chinese gotta handle this shit obviously.

    Also, Chinese need to stop being so cruel to animals, disease or no disease. It’s a sick civilization that conflates cruelty with power and kind-heartedness with weakness.

  260. Iris says:
    @Been_there_done_that

    Wow !!

    The US Deep State doubling-down on insanity and stupidity, how predictable.

  261. Levtraro says:
    @Factorize

    I checked the provided link. Thanks. Interesting presentation.

    It seems to me that the start of the phylogeny in Wuhan in the map is by design, it’s a decision made by the builders of the map, not a result of the analysis which is what you assert.

    The authors write: “Site numbering and genome structure uses Wuhan-Hu-1/2019 as reference. The phylogeny is rooted relative to early samples from Wuhan.”

    They also write:

    “Please be aware that specific inferred transmission patterns are only a hypothesis.”

  262. @Realist

    Is it possible that I know how it got here? That I have seen pictures of half Jewish elites eating outside in South China before boarding their corona chan cruise ship. Before they were cruised back here off the coast of California, just far enough off shore so they couldn’t jump ship and swim in? With their filthy chi com disease? Genius? It doesn’t take one lol

    • Replies: @Realist
  263. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    On less emotional note:

    What the Japanese should have started doing by say 1900 was to reach out to their fellow Asians and given them a genuine hand in modernization.

    Instead, Japan just wanted to dominate Asia and emulate the Western empires, all while never, not for an instant, being accepted into the fold by Europeans or Americans. Japan was in the same boat as Turkey and Russia, but were too myopic to change course. It’s like their goal in life was to be lesser whites, instead of being true-blue asians.

    So now, Japan is all alone. Can’t be part of the USMCA ([cough]NAFTA[cough]), won’t join the the Belt and Road Initiative (which is the smart play)

    When will they learn?

  264. Amanda says:

    IMO this is a global psyop, and the virus is being used as cover for the central bankers (owners of the Federal Reserve, the hidden oligarchy that prints money out of thin air) to bring in the NWO, with a new digital financial system and a forced vaccine with a nanochip used to create a “digital identity”

    ***If you think this is a “conspiracy theory” well look at this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbrett/2020/03/23/new-coronavirus-stimulus-bill-introduces-digital-dollar-and-digital-dollar-wallets/#6bb272394bea

    Greg Mannarino warning about central bankers NWO, digital, cashless society

    “Look around you. A world in lock down. Cities, states, nations shutting down. Markets in free-fall. Moreover, NOTHING you are seeing is by accident! Something I have been telling you for YEARS. Understand.. A deliberate global meltdown is occurring by design. A second Great Depression is being THRUST upon us, yes thrust. Many, many people are going do die. For how many years my EXACT words have been “It Will Be Biblical.” This is all being done to bring about a NEW financial system.. and methods of control over the remaining population beyond your wildest nightmares are going to occur… what we are seeing now is JUST THE BEGINNING…. GM
    – IMO this is a DELIBERATE meltdown of the world economic and financial systems. The New America is now the epicenter of a new order which will sweep the globe, quickly. I also believe it is by design that The Fed. is flooding the world with dollars now in order to usher in a one world ALL digital currency… GM” (I highly recommend people watch GM on y/t-he’s warning the people about the on-going LOOTING by the bankers, while everyone is distracted with the virus psyop)

    Coronavirus End Game: The Economic Crisis & Roll Out of the New Digital Financial System
    https://www.activistpost.com/2020/03/coronavirus-end-game-the-economic-crisis-roll-out-of-the-new-digital-financial-system.html

    The virus will be used as a cover story for the central bankers bringing in their new world digital currency (cashless society). The MSM is already floating stories about “dirty money and coins” and that they could have the so-called virus on them.

    The Coronavirus COVID-19 Pandemic: The Real Danger is “Agenda ID2020” -Peter Koenig (former World Bank economist)
    What is the infamous ID2020? It is an alliance of public-private partners, including UN agencies and civil society. It’s an electronic ID program that uses generalized vaccination as a platform for digital identity.

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/coronavirus-causes-effects-real-danger-agenda-id2020/5706153 (please read entire article)

    “Another hypothesis, at this point only a hypothesis, but a realistic one, is that along with the vaccination – if not with this one, then possibly with a later one, a nano-chip may be injected, unknown to the person being vaccinated. The chip may be remotely charged with all your personal data, including bank accounts – digital money. Yes, digital money that’s what “they” are aiming at, so you really have no control any more over your health and other intimate data, but also over your earnings and spending. Your money could be blocked, or taken away – as a ‘sanction’ for misbehavior, for swimming against the stream. You may become a mere slave of the masters. Comparatively, feudalism may appear like a walk in the park.”

  265. Nils says:
    @Nils

    The response from the US has been a fastidious control of the narrative and manipulation of finance. It has not been about enhanced testing or prudent early quarantining.

    Compare the response of the US to all other countries. Sure seems suspicious and out-of-sequence. Except, of course, the UK – another tidbit worth examining in detail.

    As a corollary, lets do a thought experiment:

    Your a cop investigating a burglary. You’ve apprehended two suspects and are interrogating them to determine guilt.

    One who was at the scene immediately called the cops, checked for missing items, provided accurate and logical responses to being affected by robbery. They even ask you questions about what happened and try to piece it together themselves

    The other is evasive, confrontational when questioned about whereabouts. Previous history of repeated robberies, claimed in various blogs he wanted to rule his city block and robbing was one tool in his tool kit. His behavior is centered on being reimbursed for items he lost during the robbery, never mentions anything compassionate about the victims, refuses to answer basic questions for alibi, etc.

    What would you think? Which one is China, which is the US?

    This assumes the virus was genetically engineered by someone, which it’s pretty clear it was. So now just determining guilt, either intentional or unintentional.

  266. Amanda says:

    Here is some information that supports the idea that this is a global psyop (I believe hoax), and that they are waging psychological warfare on the people (bombarding the population with fear porn), which is being used as a justification for deliberate destruction of the economy (economic warfare):

    Dr. Ron Paul- The Corona Virus Hoax

    Jon Rappoport’s blog: https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/ (read every single article he has written on corona—he calls out the BS on the MSM/US govt. narrative). For those that don’t know, Rappoport has studied fake epidemics for 30 years (yes, the medical establishment is really that corrupt, just like the US. Govt.)

    JonRappoportTheBloodlessCoupTheFakeEpidemic
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=179&v=DJM-67-WzIw&feature=emb_logo

    Does the 2019 Corona Virus Exist?
    https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/does-2019-coronavirus-exist

    The bankers have Hollywood make virus pandemic movies to prime the population that a virus can do this.

    https://occamsrazorterrorevents.weebly.com/blog/coronavirus-hoax-jan-2020

    “Below are a number of indicators that the alleged coronavirus pandemic is, essentially, a globally orchestrated “live exercise” in managing a pandemic (preceded in October last year by Event 201, a “pandemic tabletop exercise”). We can infer that the alleged purpose of this exercise is really a flimsy pretext for fear-mongering instigated by the global power elite in order to exercise better control – there are about 8,500 of them and 7 billion of us. The scope of social control laid bare by this pandemic is truly scary. What social controls will be implemented and how this event will be used as a pretext for blaming looming economic problems only time will tell.”

    https://jamesfetzer.org/2020/03/gary-d-barnett-the-only-pandemic-in-america-is-that-of-unbridled-fear-and-a-total-lack-of-intelligent-thought/

    “It is my belief that the regular flu is being used as a cover for this fake virus, and will serve to hide fault of a state-created economic collapse. In the process, all will become slaves to the state, and this is not a temporary tyranny, as it will last long after this current non-risk is over. Today, Trump and his entourage of idiots stood before the cameras and said now we can do this next spring to help stop the flu! That is basically an announcement that these measures can be used for any excuse deemed “necessary” by the ruling class. They are actually preparing the sheep for ongoing martial law.”

    “Coronavirus, according to Dr. Wolfgang Wodarg, is a part of all viruses, and 8% to 15% of viruses are coronavirus, so that will show up in testing. This is especially the case when testing the already sick and dying, the old and infirmed, and this kind of testing would be far different than random population tests. In other words, if testing is set up to test sick people, up to 15% will show coronavirus. It is a natural part of flu, and will always show up, so it would be easy to use to fool the dumbed-down and dependent herd. They are easily frightened, and expect government to take care of them from cradle to grave, so this test has been successful for those intending to take control of populations around the world.”

    Don’t forget, in the NDAA of 2012, they did something (“modernization”) to the Smith Mundt Act to make PROPAGANDA LEGAL!!!

    • Replies: @S
  267. Amanda says:

    They are doing all sorts of Hollywood tricks to maximize the drama. At this link,
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-virus-plan-anticipates-18-month-pandemic-and-widespread-shortages/ar-BB11ktjA there used to be a photo of 3 guys all geared up in hazmat suits spraying the clothes of a guy on a motorcycle. Does that sound like standard procedure for treating viruses?? Spraying people?? This feels like a Hollywood production, with props to sell the narrative. Like setting up the testing tents for maximum drama and photo ops to push the fear—they wouldn’t have such photo ops if people just got tested in the doctor’s office. At some point, I also saw a photo with a bunch of guys geared up in hazmat suits spraying the crosswalk–so, what? were they afraid the sheeple would lick the sidewalk and get the scary virus??

    Fakery and lying here:


    Check out Camelot Daily here exposing the media and this female CEO of Urgent Care in a Hawaii facility lying about long lines of people getting test for the CV. He shows up and there is nobody in line at all, empty parking lot, and he calls her out and she assaults him while the police are present.

    And who even believes that govts. around the world care about their people??? They lie us into wars all the time and let young men get slaughtered, but now they are here to save us?? Really?? You’re buying that??

    And finally, it’s quite possible that everything they have ever told us about viruses is a lie (yes, the medical establishment is that corrupt):

    Book- Virus Mania. Avian Flu (H5N1), Cervical Cancer (HPV), SARS, BSE, Hepatitis C, AIDS, Polio- How the Medical Industry Continually Invents Epidemics, Making Billion-Dollar Profits at Our Expense
    http://www.whale.to/c/Virus-Mania55tt66.pdf

    Medical researcher, Janine Roberts writes about scientific fraud in virology, polio and HIV in her book Fear of the Invisible:
    http://www.whale.to/a/roberts_b.html

    A good summary of her book is here: http://www.davidpratt.info/roberts.htm

    “We have been taught to greatly fear viruses, yet scientists have long known that these are fundamental parts of life, made by the millions by all healthy cells…Cells naturally produce viral-like particles without being invaded, both when healthy and sick…It now seems that we may have misconceived the virus; that most of them could well be simply inert messages in envelopes carried from cell to cell…We need to know if a poisoned cell may produce unhealthy messengers or viruses…Research indicates that cellular stress, illness or malnourishment often precedes the production of viruses rather than the reverse…. As we have seen, no virus has ever been isolated directly from a sick patient’s cells. Since ‘scientists have long known that the guaranteed way to make cells produce viruses in the laboratory, including flu and measles virus, is not primarily by getting them infected, but by exposing them to stress and toxins

    The Viral (Infectious Disease and Epidemic) Fear Racket
    http://www.whale.to/a/infectious_scares.html

    • Replies: @9/11 Inside job
  268. @SolontoCroesus

    You know there are ostensibly young people on here who hate you because you caused everything wrong in the world. No, really. They do. The little Rocket Scientists.

  269. refl says:
    @9/11 Inside job

    Thank you for keeping up with reasonable commenting here. Why don’t people here question the narrative as ha whole? They do it on other issues.
    Example: #246 links to a film and it starts “We are trying to find the origin of the Corona-virus and especially of COVID-19…” I did not even listen any further (if something reasonable stiil followed, please tell me someone). Don’t these people even realize that Corona is a group of viruses, that has always been around? There is no point in tracking down the origin of the Corona-virus. For this recent type, maybe, it makes sense, but to start the reporting this way shows that they have no idea.

    A test for this type of Corona in particular is still out and might never come. So the whole statistics is pointless. It might very well be that while searching for Corona, quite a number of different bacteriological diseases will be found, that cause severe cases of respiratorial health issues but have not been mapped yet. And doing so around the world in very different countries might indeed prove interesting. All these findings will now at first be counted as Corona, because that is the fashion of the day.
    This will give the background noise to the ever growing panic. Add in authorities that do not admit errors and huge corruption and there you have your pandemic.

    • Thanks: 9/11 Inside job
  270. @anonymous

    Just FYI, the rest of the world does not separate the American govt and the American people.

    We own the actions of our govt.

    That is how the rest of the world see us.

  271. @Iris

    See. Communism is better. All these troglodytes on here fighting the Cold War of 15 centuries ago always bring up Stalin. They never bring up Castro. Because he made Cuba better. In spite of a massive draconian endless embargo.

    Now, they would say that Russia and Venezuela bankrolled them.

    To an extent. But not that much.

    But the important point, the killer point, is above. When you have a corrupt, venal, murderous dictatorship of a country, you don’t even have squads of highly-educated medical personnel to send out to crisis zones. Much less do you send them out.

    No. Communists are better people, kinder people, more moral people, and braver people than you. My example is in the picture of the heroic doctors proudly flying into the danger zone to help the common people–the way all good Communists do.

    Fuck you, liars.

    • Thanks: Iris
    • Replies: @Dannyboy
    , @Twodees Partain
  272. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Giving up identity is never a good idea, all you end up being is a pathetic, puke-worthy imitation of the thing you are trying to be, and the people you admire so much will forever recoil in disgust at you, because you try so hard to be something impossible for you.

    Give up identity, and replace it with boot-licking and zero knowledge of yourself? Seems VERY dumb.

    Mainland China chose the only real way forward, keep the identity and soul, but learn from (not boot-lick) others. Learn from/Copy/Imitate/Emulate : Germany, Japan, the United States, even Russia and the UK.

    Seems to me that China has kept its soul, and is succeeding just fine.

    • LOL: Prajna
    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Prajna
  273. @DB Cooper

    Japanese are the only noble non-White race, we should not have went to war with Japan or National Socialist Germany and Japan should have exterminated the Chinese to make room for Japanese settlers.

    Hopefully when the riding tide of White nationalism binds together the White nations, we can go full Turner Diaries on China.

    • Troll: d dan
  274. @BrokenheartAmerican

    Depends on if they are ABC or FOB.

    If you don’t know what that means, then you don’t know Chinese.

  275. Patricus says:

    So the clever and diabolical deep state devised a virus aimed at Chinese, Iranians and Italians (of all people). Oops, they bungled and now the world’s economy is in a tailspin with everyone suffering from the Corona virus. That’s a coherent explanation. Personally I believe UFOs instigated the disease in order to kill all but Zionists and Free Masons who will then rule the earth with iron fists.

  276. @DB Cooper

    Can you cite evidence for these allegations? This seems to be yet another anti-Japanese canard, like the far East version of the Holocaust.

    It probably didn’t happen that way, but I wish the Japanese had finished the job and unleased the Unit 731 plagues on the mainland to clear or out for future Japanese settlers. That piece of land wouldn’t be churning out insectoid people and diseases had the Japs did God’s work and exterminated you all.

    • Troll: d dan
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Chinaman
  277. FB says: • Website
    @utu

    Well…I’m not surprised you have nothing for a rebuttal…

    Let me restate here again…your ‘analysis’ is completely retarded…and yes, I am getting annoyed at the voluminous nonsense you are cluttering up here…[annoyance with obvious idiots is not a ‘personality disorder’…it is completely normal…]

    Let me put your gibberish in context here…you cite a paper from Du et al, which is concerned with a much more narrow focus [the probability of the virus propagating within China, IF there were no quarantine]…and which furthermore uses not only a simple exponential growth analysis, but a more nuanced epidemiologic model…

    Additionally, a human mobility from one town to the next in China was developed…

    I have already mentioned previously this simple fact that you cannot just use exponential growth and assume that the entire country starts at the same time…it doesn’t…each new location starts from zero, when an infected person arrives at that particular location…

    In other words, you are taking this paper completely out of context and trying to now fit SOME of the numbers they come up with [doubling rate for instance] into a totally unrealistic ‘hypothesis’ about WHEN precisely the outbreak started…that is not what these authors were after…

    What they DID come up with was a quite frightening scenario where more than half of China’s population is eventually infected and 99 percent of people in the four biggest urban centers…that is what COULD have happened without the quarantine measures…

    Unlike your ramblings, the authors preface their conclusions with ample cautions…

    Our conclusions are based on several key assumptions…

    Further, considerable uncertainty regarding the lag between infection and case detection remains.

    We expect that estimates for the doubling time and incidence of COVID-19 will improve as reconstructed linelists and more granular epidemiologic data become available…

    To these cautions I would add my own criticism of their methodology, which was to come up with their ESTIMATE of doubling time by using data from the ‘first’ 19 cases outside of China…a lot of uncertainties there…more on the methodology at the appendix here…

    Nonetheless, the paper does give us food for thought about just ‘what might have been’ in China, had they not reacted so forcefully with the quarantine…and what could happen here where such a reaction is not forthcoming…

    That is the relevant issue here…not goofy warbling about whether or not the outbreak could have started simultaneously with the military games…

    • Replies: @Iris
    , @utu
  278. @Monty Ahwazi

    SarsCov2 came from China. There is your truth

  279. @FB

    Very well written.

    South Korea tested 20,000 people per day.

    USA refuses to test people.

    Why the fuck do we praised SK as a model and do jack shit after?

    To fellow Americans. No one will help you. Not the govt. Not your imaginary god. Maybe a good neighbor, who knows, could happen.

    Help yourself, protect yourself. Stock up on all needed supplies for 6 months. I did. Thank the fucking prudence that I have a solar roof.

    Be safe. Be prepared. Hope you got guns and ammo. Wait till this shit to blow over. Literally wait.

    Good luck.

  280. @Iris

    The Imperial College study needs to be peer-reviewed, I was admitted to Imperial College in 1966 to study law but instead went to the “godless institution on Gower Street ” otherwise known as University College London . Imperial College has a good reputation but I am suspicious of any institution with “imperial” in its name , the English still want to seize America surreptitiously through Rhodes Scholars and their like ,who over the years have infested many high positions in the US government. As all the signs point to the “Coronavirus pandemic” being a psyop , studies such as the one from Imperial College must be treated with the utmost caution. In any event ,Cecile Viboud who does infectious disease modeling for the NIH says :”Like every modeling study , it has a lot of uncertainty.”npr.org Under the circumstances , policy decisions should not be based on this study .

  281. @DB Cooper

    It was only due to the good grace of Jew Kissinger that we didn’t wipe Chinese out. I prefer Japs to chinks any day as the latter have produced nothing of value and are all parasites who come to the West. There are literally millions of Chinese leeching off White nations while Japanese have their own prosperous land that isn’t a shithole like China.

    If Corona was a US bioweapon it was weak sauce, should have brought out the big guns and terminated all life on that God forsaken piece of land. It would have been good for the environment as well.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @anonymous
  282. Anon[200] • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    I hope you don’t live in the West. If you do, please move the F back to China. The last thing we need is yet another traitorous China rat in the West.

  283. onebornfree says: • Website
    @Eugene Norman

    “So they want you to hate China now. More than usual. So you do.”

    No I don’t.

    FYI I oppose [hate] a particular ideology, regardless of where it occurs in this world.

    Specifically, I oppose ALL forms of statism/collectivism under the various commonly used labels [eg communism, socialism , fascism, democracy, republicanism etc etc].

    I don’t give a flyin’ crap whether a particular communist/socialist/fascist/democratic, republican etc. etc. government is Chinese, American, Israeli, British, Italian,French, German, Portugese, Japanese, Saudi Arabian, or wherever.

    Ultimately, it’s all the same mind rot [served up with a slightly different local disguise/dressing, dependent on the country concerned].

    To be clear: I’m 100% capitalist and I vehemently, 100% oppose ALL forms of statism/collectivism in this world, regardless of where it presents itself [and which probably includes yourself].

    Get it now?

    “Regards”, onebornfree

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  284. Patricus says:
    @Johnwho

    If you go to Cuba for health care remember to bring your own bedsheets, bandages, hypodermic needles, medicines and food. If you happen to be a senior member of the Communist party you might get decent medical care.

    • Replies: @Popeye
    , @Johnwho
  285. Nils says:
    @Been_there_done_that

    Another fake, patsy-contrived (medical) 9/11.

    This goes hand-in-hand with the trade war and the other mysterious virus outbreaks in the poultry and pig markets in China.

    My guess is they will find a PLA membership card in smoldering ashes of Patient Zero!

  286. DB Cooper says:
    @Just Passing Through

    “‘Japanese are the only noble non-White race”

    High Japanese officials and Sony chairman openly called the Americans lazy and stupid just a couple decades ago. Given your comment may be they are right!

  287. DB Cooper says:
    @Just Passing Through

    “That piece of land wouldn’t be churning out insectoid people and diseases had the Japs did God’s work and exterminated you all.”

    I always think God is a piece of shit. You just prove it. In case you doubt what I said go and read the old testament and see what the genocidal, vindictive control freak have to say. Fuck that little prick in the sky and you too.

    No wonder Europe was in a constant state of war up to WWII.

    • Disagree: Fuerchtegott
    • Replies: @anon
  288. Realist says:
    @BrokenheartAmerican

    I have seen pictures of half Jewish elites eating outside in South China before boarding their corona chan cruise ship.

    How would you…of all people know…that a picture was of half Jewish elites eating outside in South China?

    Usually dumb bastards like you comment on Giraldi’s articles

  289. Iris says:
    @FB

    …not goofy warbling about whether or not the outbreak could have started simultaneously with the military games…

    A “coincidence” which, anyway, has long been proven to be possible, realistic and consistent with the data gathered for “The Lancet” article providing a description of the first cases:

    Lucey says if the new data are accurate, the first human infections must have occurred in November 2019—if not earlier—because there is an incubation time between infection and symptoms surfacing

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/wuhan-seafood-market-may-not-be-source-novel-virus-spreading-globally

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30183-5/fulltext

  290. FB says: • Website
    @Nils

    Interesting…

    You sound like you know something about the subject…as does the original commenter ‘Stoneman’ to whom you responded to…

    So the discussion here is whether or not, the new corona virus could have been created in a lab, as opposed to developing in the wild…

    Now we already have one peer-reviewed paper on this that has been widely cited, which states quite assuredly that the virus could NOT have been manmade…that is the paper from a week ago in Nature, The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2

    This paper has been cited here and elsewhere, notably by ‘Bernhard’ over at moon of alabama, who seems to take this as gospel proof that the virus is ‘natural’…

    ‘Stoneman’ in his original comment here…points to an article here, where a competent-sounding science writer tries to break down the Nature paper for the lay reader…

    Now here is the takeaway for me…the explanation given by the Nature authors makes very little sense…it boils down to the fact that computer models predict that a virus like the new corona would be very ineffective at latching onto [binding] human cells…ergo, scientists would not have thought to pursue such a virus architecture because the models are apparently not that smart…

    …in computer simulations, the mutations in SARS-CoV-2 don’t seem to work very well at helping the virus bind to human cells. If scientists had deliberately engineered this virus, they wouldn’t have chosen mutations that computer models suggest won’t work.

    So we are asked to believe a couple of things here…the first one is not unlikely, that our best models aren’t really that good after all…happens all the time in science, especially in numerical modeling…

    But the second one is rather ridiculous…ie that computer models are the ONLY way that research proceeds…this is pure nonsense…like I said, everybody already knows the limitations of mathematical modeling…in EVERY scientific discipline where these tools are used…

    They are NOT a replacement for EXPERIMENT…anymore than the computer has made the wind tunnel and flight testing obsolete in designing an airplane…

    The lab [I’m assuming] likewise uses experiments as the final arbiter of what works and what doesn’t…people are creative and follow hunches…nobody I know in my field of aeronautics will rely on just a computer model, in fact that is so silly that I now tend to dismiss this entire Nature article as worthless at best, and propaganda at worst…

    Yes, I know that it was peer-reviewed…but this issue of the corona virus is now very political…and science is also dependent on politics and money…so even if the authors here are honest, they may be looking out for themselves, even subconsciously, by not rocking the boat…

    Bottom line is I now find this explanation as to the origins of the virus totally unconvincing…I would love to hear more from anyone with specialist knowledge here…

    This explanation about ‘computer models’ certainly does NOT merit the idea that it was lab developed as a ‘myth’…now that is pure propaganda…

    PS…a neat picture of what this virus supposedly looks like…with those ‘spike proteins’ clearly visible on the outside of the ‘corona’ shaped virus…

    • Replies: @dimples
    , @Parfois1
  291. anonymous[261] • Disclaimer says:
    @Just Passing Through

    I wonder if the Trump administration is taking extra effort to keep UnzForum up and running.

    A lot of very angry peeps letting off steam.

    Imagine the domestic violence incidents avoided by a few well-chosen — if inarticulate, contributing nothing and totally without merit — cuss-words on Unz.com

    Who do you suppose will introduce Ron Unz when Trump gives him the Medal of Freedom?

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
  292. @Amanda

    Thank you for the links that you provided , I agree that it’s a global psyop . It took me 11 to 12 years to understand that 9/11 was a psyop/false flag/staged deception . As I have been saying:
    FOOL ME ONCE(9/11 PSYOP),SHAME ON YOU, FOOL ME TWICE(CORONAVIRUS PSYOP) SHAME ON ME

  293. johnm33 says:
    @Tor597

    Wuhan and Milan have poor air quality, lots of heavy industry, Iran has lots of vets exposed to nerve gas. Virus’ like damaged/diseased cells and once attacked in those cells can set off a cascade of reproduction, especially when triggered by insulin or growth hormone from adreniline release.

    • Replies: @Tor597
  294. utu says:
    @FB

    Let me restate here again…your ‘analysis’ is completely retarded…and yes, I am getting annoyed at the voluminous nonsense you are cluttering up here…[annoyance with obvious idiots is not a ‘personality disorder’…it is completely normal…]

    A profound lack of insight. Your personality disorders manifests itself in that you are motivated by anger that you construct but w/o a clue why. You do not know where the need of proving others being wrong comes from. You construct reality where it is ‘you against the idiots’ which is some form of reification of the model of reality you have created. The model of reality you were painted into a corner by your personality disorder. Why your talents do not manifest themselves in a constructive way? Probabaly because you are mostly in slumber feeling depressed until you notice something that you permit yourself to get angry with. Then you move to action and temporarily you feel a satisfaction and relief. Perhaps you keep a journal or keep your mother posted (just like Feynman did) or at least mental points about your little ‘victories’ where you ‘showed them’ and ‘defeated them’, ‘them idiots’. But you keep fooling yourself that you act because of reason as you are not connected to deeper emotions that really drive you. I have one caution for you that perhaps you could dwell on: think how much do you miss by being angry; how much your perception of reality might be distorted.

    For instance in Du et al. paper you saw only what you wanted to see but you skipped the fact that within Wuhan the model they used was exponential (see their appendix) that from which they determined the doubling period “By limiting our estimate to infections occurring ≥10 days before the quarantine, we account for an ≈5–6-day incubation period and 4–5 days between symptom onset and case detection. ” and “By using epidemiologic evidence from the first 425 cases of COVID-19 confirmed in Wuhan by January 22, 2020 (4), we made the following assumptions regarding the number of new cases…”

    I believe that their estimate of the doubling period in conjunction with the exponential model and the scheme proposed by Ron Unz can be used to approximate the date of the patient zero in Wuhan. This is important because earlier some (including myself) floated skepticism whether the late October 2019 of Military Games in Wuhan could indeed be the starting time of the epidemic. If the used model could not predict the patient zero in October then the hypothesis of Military Games in Wuhan plus the cobvbid-19 would have to be rejected, so the conclusion that data from Wuhan are not inconsistent with the hypothesis is strong not weak.

    • Agree: Craig Nelsen
    • LOL: FB
  295. @Amanda

    Agree . They are using the same techniques as they used for 9/11 – crisis actors (Harley guy) Hollywood like productions ,such as the 9/11 Naudet Brothers faked video of the first jet(cgi) hitting the North Tower and FEAR , nothing controls people like fear, frightened people will willingly surrender their civil liberties .

    • Agree: Amanda
    • Replies: @Amanda
    , @Anonymous
  296. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    I just find out that Japan is the biggest producer and exporter of ‘sex robots’. Custom made, even child size in order to prevent actual child abuse!
    They show us the ‘civilized’ way forward. Brave New World.

  297. Military games at Wuhan, 18th October – 27th October.

    Great America with its great army landed at the 35th position, behind such countries as Switzerland, Slovenia, Tunisia and so on and so on. Details here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Military_World_Games#Medal_table

    The 23rd place is a lie.
    Another proof of US lying. They are now claiming a gold medal in women triathlon. Too bad, the winner was the Swiss Jolanda Annen, with 1h56′ (to be compared with the US 2h10′).

    NY, 18th October.

    Events 201.

    Quote:

    “Event 201 simulates an outbreak of a novel zoonotic coronavirus transmitted from bats to pigs to people that eventually becomes efficiently transmissible from person to person, leading to a severe pandemic. The pathogen and the disease it causes are modeled largely on SARS, but it is more transmissible in the community setting by people with mild symptoms.

    The disease starts in pig farms in Brazil, quietly and slowly at first, but then it starts to spread more rapidly in healthcare settings. When it starts to spread efficiently from person to person in the low-income, densely packed neighborhoods of some of the megacities in South America, the epidemic explodes. It is first exported by air travel to Portugal, the United States, and China and then to many other countries. Although at first some countries are able to control it, it continues to spread and be reintroduced, and eventually no country can maintain control.”

    Source:

    http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/scenario.html

    • Replies: @Parfois1
  298. @Bobby Mitchum

    Bobby, give the poor guy a break. When he chose his handle, he meant to write onebrainfree. He just can’t spell.

    • LOL: Mustapha Mond
  299. Maiasta says:
    @Amanda

    Yes. Mannarino and Skouras are completely correct. We are facing a gigantic hoax aimed at facilitating a global police state. As Skouras commented, the technology has finally caught up with elite intent, and the society described by Nicholas Rockefeller (via Aaron Russo) is now possible. There are a few specialists that are not going along with this, but they are a miniscule number, and Mannarino is almost certainly correct that we cannot win this:

    Twelve medical experts whose opinions on Coronavirus contradict the official narratives:

    https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/24/12-experts-questioning-the-coronavirus-panic/

  300. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Nils

    Yes, both the U.S. and China played to their strengths in this matter.

    I think Ron Unz himself observed something to the effect:

    America, so artful and focused on the art of perception-shaping (aka propaganda) deployed its array of media outlets and propagandists toi serve its own goals – attack China’s reputation, give false reassurance to the public, downplay the disease and so forth. It’s as if American authorities thought that perception really WAS reality.

    China, conscious of its execrable weakness in soft power, had to deploy its engineers, doctors, workers and their associated machines and technology to serve a simple goal: push back the virus, as effectively as possible.

    Both China and America succeeded in their aims. And here we are in America – in crisis.

  301. Strange goings on –
    Consider the news article https://www.propublica.org/article/a-medical-worker-describes–terrifying-lung-failure-from-covid19-even-in-his-young-patients by news reporter Lizzie Presser released on March21, 2020. In this article an anonymous doctor in Louisiana describes the immense difficulties of treating COVID-19 patients. The doctor is anonymous because we are told he “fears retribution”. Why would the doctor fear retribution by simply reporting honestly on the situation with coronavirus in the hospital where he works? Some lovely descriptions here including “secretions that are actually pink because they’re filled with blood cells that are leaking into their airways”.
    Maybe the doctor is anonymous because they could not get an honest doctor to sign off on this propaganda horseshit?
    Another article the same day https://www.wesh.com/article/its-absolutely-surreal-new-jersey-woman-loses-four-family-members-to-coronavirus-in-a-week/31802755 tells us that a woman lost 4 members of her immediate family to coronavirus in a week!
    Wow! Maybe the Chinese virus will cause honest Yankee folk to climb into the trees and crow like roosters? I agree that we should end the political correct nonsense and call a spade a spade: the ‘Yellow peril Red Chinese heathen Chinee virus’?
    The great toilet paper caper. “Where has all the toilet paper(flowers) gone, long time passing”.
    Maybe the elite is just adamantly refusing to restock the toilet paper in order to create a sense of fear and demoralization among the herd of cattle so that they are more susceptible to control. This is an obvious psychological warfare technique and brilliantly executed though pretty obvious.
    They are deliberately taking down the North American and world economies. This is the only way they could find to sabotage the rise of China. This is a transformative event. It is not 1987 or 2008. It is more akin to 1929. A new North American economy will be born, much slimmed down. Globalism in terms of ‘just in time’ supply lines from China will be ended. Canada and Mexico will be brought ever closer to the USA in a de-facto North American union. A much reduced standard of living at least initially will be the result for North Americans.

  302. Dannyboy says:
    @obwandiyag

    See. Communism is better. All these troglodytes on here fighting the Cold War of 15 centuries ago always bring up Stalin. They never bring up Castro. Because he made Cuba better. In spite of a massive draconian endless embargo.

    Now, they would say that Russia and Venezuela bankrolled them.

    To an extent. But not that much.

    But the important point, the killer point, is above. When you have a corrupt, venal, murderous dictatorship of a country, you don’t even have squads of highly-educated medical personnel to send out to crisis zones. Much less do you send them out.

    No. Communists are better people, kinder people, more moral people, and braver people than you. My example is in the picture of the heroic doctors proudly flying into the danger zone to help the common people–the way all good Communists do.

    Fuck you, liars.

    Clap…Clap…Clap

    That’s funny, because my fervent hope is that your kind and your brats get to experience FULL ON MARXIST COMMUNISM for several generations…lol

    You lazy, stupid entitled little fucks certainly deserve that.

  303. anon[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rich

    there is no punishment too severe for the individual, or individuals responsible.

    Or nations, and all neocon activities have their origins in Israel. But some good can yet come of this. The other nuclear-armed nations of the world should dedicate 10 warheads each to make Tel Aviv the world’s permanent nuclear waste dump.

  304. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @onebornfree

    Okay, prove that it’s all about ideology.

    The Russians gave up Communism. Can we agree on that? I mean Communism is DEAD in Russia.

    Are the Russians and Russia alright with you now?

    You know the right answer, pls say it.

    • Replies: @onebornfree
  305. FB says: • Website
    @DaveE

    In other words, these equations are mental masturbation, to put it politely

    Yup…

    There’s also a (probably exponential) DEATH function of the virus that competes with the growth function.

    It’s due to many factors, antibodies, sunlight, diet, precipitation, the immune systems of all creatures concerned and probably 50 other variables which are impossible to calculate, at least currently.

    Indeed…I noticed some very interesting comments in this thread, for instance about vitamin D levels and how this very seasonal factor plays an extremely large role in viral illnesses…

    A lot of these interesting comments have been effectively lost in the noise here…

  306. Popeye says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Information on the 150 major promises would be much appreciated. Thank you. Popeye

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  307. Ann K. says:
    @anonymous

    Two acquaintances of mine here in central Texas also had debilitating respiratory illnesses in January-February that lasted for weeks and were much more severe than any “flu” they had ever experienced.

    I think it’s been around quite some time, too.

  308. Dannyboy says:

    Sic Semper Tyrannis.

    • Replies: @aandrews
  309. Herald says:
    @ancientarcher

    You are just either working for the CCP or a fool extremely susceptible to propaganda!

    And so this is your first comment on UR….hmmm. Looks very much like you’ve been pressed ganged into taking on the role of a lowly gatekeeper. This one is certainly bringing out the lowlifes, no doubt about it, but these are desperate times and require desperate measures! It’s always the same when someone at UR starts getting a bit too near the truth.

    Still it must be a very worrying time for your bosses, now that the nasty China coronavirus stunt is beginning to backfire in such spectacular fashion. Heads will have to roll at your place, but hopefully when it’s all over you can get back to more like normal. I guess that would be making coffee in your case.

    • Replies: @Parfois1
  310. Popeye says:
    @Patricus

    Or if you need an organ transplant, bring lots of cash or $20k limit on your credit. Organs are readily available there…just execute a few political prisoner or common criminal

  311. Amanda says:
    @9/11 Inside job

    And they are trotting out famous people and Hollywood types to keep selling the narrative:

    https://www.winterwatch.net/2020/03/step-1-coronavirus-panic-step-2-loss-of-liberty-and-depression/

    [MORE]

    One of my remarks was this: “Look for a big celebrity who’s active on Twitter to ‘come down’ sick to help trigger a panic among the plebs.”

    And now, lo and behold Tom Hanks and his wife have announced they have the coronavirus. Has to be Oprah next?

    Then Utah Jazz basketball player Rudy Gobert has also tested positive for coronavirus. Moments after the Gobert announcement, the NBA declared it would suspend the season until further notice. A short time later, it was announced that games would be played in empty arenas. No fans would be allowed to attend. Yes, now they have Joe Sixpack’s full attention.

    Hanks even provided instruction on what’s next. No, you can’t make this stuff up.

    Hello, folks. Rita and I are down here in Australia. We felt a bit tired, like we had colds, and some body aches. Rita had some chills that came and went. Slight fevers too. To play things right, as is needed in the world right now, we were tested for the Coronavirus, and were found to be positive.

    Well, now. What to do next? The Medical Officials have protocols that must be followed. We Hanks’ will be tested, observed, and isolated for as long as public health and safety requires. Not much more to it than a one-day-at-a-time approach, no?

    We’ll keep the world posted and updated.

    Take care of yourselves!
    Hanx!

    Takeaway: With this as the narrative, look for medical martial law and huge curtailment of liberties to follow very soon. This will be facilitated by shortages and, I predict, food rationing. New York Gov. Cuomo called in the National Guard.

    And here’s the latest from Jon Rappoport:

    https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/03/24/heres-what-the-cdc-says-about-the-test-for-the-coronavirus/

    As my readers know, I’ve described why the widespread diagnostic test for the coronavirus is insufficient, misleading, useless, and deceptive.

    That test, used all over the world where it is available, is called the PCR.

    It DIAGNOSES patients. “Yes, you have the virus.” “No you don’t.”

    A very alert reader sent me a link to a US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) document about the test. The CDC establishes the guidelines for how the test should be done, and what the results mean.

    Here is a CDC paragraph about results. I suggest you read it several times.

    “Positive [test] results are indicative of active infection with 2019-nCoV but do not rule out bacterial infection or co-infection with other viruses. The agent detected may not be the definite cause of disease. Laboratories within the United States and its territories are required to report all positive results to the appropriate public health authorities.”

    I’m going to blow past the blatant contradiction in that CDC paragraph and cut to the chase.

    The key line in that paragraph is: “The agent detected [the coronavirus] may not be the definite cause of disease.”

    BANG.
    “On a deeper level, the CDC is saying straight out, IF THE TEST SHOWS A CORONAVIRUS IS PRESENT, THAT DOESN’T MEAN IT’S CAUSING DISEASE.”

    While everyone is distracted by this psyop and the fake virus, the nation and we the people are being LOOTED and with EPIC printing spree out of the Fed, we are being set up for HYPERINFLATION. Please start listening to Greg Mannarino on y/t–he’s warning the people what the bankers are up to.

    And if you don’t understand central banking, then you really don’t understand how the world works. Central bankers (owners of the Fed and all the other central banks) have the power to create money out of thin air and loan it at interest to governments. This is the ultimate power, the power to create money. The have had this power for hundreds of years and they are the hidden oligarchy that rules nation states from behind the scenes.

    Please watch James Corbett’s Century of Enslavement: This History of the Federal Reserve, Money as Debt, Bill Still’s The Money Masters, Mike Rivero’s All Wars and Banker’s Wars, and Mike Maloney’s Hidden Secrets of Money, where he warns back in 2013 that in the next ten years there is going to be the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world (and in part 7 he warns of what’s going to happen because of all of the printing at the Fed).

    • Replies: @S
  312. Hempus says:

    @ 16 Ron Unz

    “the number of infected individuals tends to double every 3-5 days”

    It looks to me that the number of available tests kits double every 3-5 days!
    Not only in Italy ….all over the world.
    An anormous “spread” of test kits!

    All this remains me when the HIV causes AIDS theory came up.
    First they have tested Gay people who spend lots of times in saunas / dark rooms …taking poppers bevor having sex..sometimes with 5-10 partners an afternoon….then the test went to prostitutes in Thailand, then whole Afrika was “infected” and so on.
    Finally they found that all baboon ape’s where HIV positive, well, the baboons did not catch the hysteria and did not start to hyperventilate.

    The EVENT 201 happened in october 2019 sponsered by vaccination pope Bill Gates.

    “Among the selected “players” as they were called, was George Fu Gao. Notably, Prof. Gao is director of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention since 2017. His specialization includes research on “influenza virus interspecies transmission (host jump)… He is also interested in virus ecology, especially the relationship between influenza virus and migratory birds or live poultry markets and the bat-derived virus ecology and molecular biology.” Bat-derived virus ecology…”

    Dr. Gao was one of the main plotter. I dont think that he will be long treated as a demigod.
    China did not mastered the virus epidemic because there is only a test epidemic.
    They are now only testing on the borders and stopped testing inside China.
    Any nation should stop testing!
    Problem solved!

  313. Amanda says:

    NIH Report ~ 80% False Positive !!!! Covid 19 Test Results..SPREAD THIS WIDE AND FAR

  314. Lo says:
    @jim jones

    Obviously to tell everyone how great China is, silly.

  315. Art says:
    @Ron Unz

    Within the last weeks, the Chinese say that they have had days with NO new CV cases — in a country with 1,500,000,000 people, I find that totally impossible to believe.

    • Replies: @Iris
  316. anon[837] • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    The Old Testament is the Jew personified.

  317. Sean says:
    @utu

    The mortality statistics from Jan 22-Jan 25 in China are not inconsistent with the hypothesis that the first infection in Wuhan occurred in late October 2019.

    The Chinese themselves say the first known infection occurred on the 17th of November, with five infections per day after that. Would a bioweapons attack in October not appear to be a starburst spread back in October with a lot of people getting infected at one time and exponential growth from that broad base rather than everything tracing to a narrow line of transmission that shows signs of being a single infection event in November? See here

    The mutations in SARS-CoV that produced SARS-CoV-2 are ones that computer models suggest would not work. Such a counter-intuitive feature is surely a marker for evolutionary search rather that consciously directed design. See here.

    • Replies: @Iris
    , @utu
  318. @anonymous

    To be completely honest, a few anons here would do the world a lot of good by killing themselves. They are dangerous to the rest of us.

    FYI, I call everyone here anons.

  319. Cyrano says:

    OK, this is the mother of all conspiracies. I am not even authorized to share it with you, but because I’m kind hearted – I will.

    I think the US are going to use this virus “outbreak” to self-invade themselves. Remember how they used the 9/11 to invade Iraq? This is the same thing. The similarities are just striking. It’s deja view all over again (it means we’ve seen it before).

    Remember how they said that there were 19 hijackers on 9/11? And now they are calling the virus COVID 19. Coincidence? I don’t think so. I mean it’s obvious. It’s totally related. This is how it’s going down: In the next few days, there will be a plane-full of Chinese hijackers (19 of them) flying to the US. The plane will be full of viruse(s) – remember – S – plural – viruses. Bucketfuls and bucketfuls full of liquid viruses. The US of course will intercept the plane – shoot it down or whatever. And then they’re going to use it as an excuse to self-invade themselves. Isn’t it logical?

    After you’ve proven that you are numero uno military power in the world – who else is there to prove your military might against? Of course – yourself. Attacking a lesser military power becomes unbecoming so you have to fight the strongest army in the world – which happens to be none other than yourselves.

    They are going to call the whole operation – a mope-up operation – supposedly to clean up the viruses from the crash site, but we all know what’s all about – just an excuse to self-invade and put an end on any speculation about which one is the strongest military in the world.

  320. @anon

    I am 100% sure Africa and Latin America would be the only somewhat safe places to be when shit hits the fan.

    Israel is 100% glassed in that situation. Judeo-Christians would finally have their end days.

  321. @Nils

    If only anons who oppose your views can make coherent comments like yours.

    Thanks for your comments. Very good points.

  322. @Godfree Roberts

    Look at how clever American soldiers are at disguising themselves as Chinese women, and then spreading the virus (and whatever else) in White countries:

    https://bigleaguepolitics.com/shock-video-chinese-people-repeatedly-attempt-to-spread-coronavirus-in-public/

    Let me guess: They’re CIA agents trying to throw you off the scent.

  323. Half Back says:
    @Just Passing Through

    One point I would like to have some opinions on, If it was a bio weapon would those who done it inform the President Or would you say the president authorizes it and so fully invested in the operation.? My guess they (the intell/bio weapons unit Command/General might go ‘rouge’ however I only have Hollywood scrips to sustain that allegation.

  324. @James Forrestal

    Your line of reasoning is correct and a much better explanation of the process, but it leads to the same endpoint: an aggressive system for catching and identifying novel Coronaviruses (inter alia) that we, apparently, don’t have and don’t want.

    • Replies: @Iris
  325. @22pp22

    Godfree’s view that the Chinese are incapable of doing anything bad is just plain silly. You’re putting words in my mouth. I present China’s positives exclusively because 99% of our media not only presents their negatives exclusively but even invents negatives.

    China ceased to be a basket case when it started imitating us. China ceased being a basket case in 1951 and, from then until today, grew its economy 300% faster than ours–despite our bioweapon attacks, food and financial embargoes, and UN exclusion. China owes us nothing.

    • Replies: @22pp22
    , @Richard B
    , @Erebus
  326. @Ayatollah Smith

    I’ve asked friends to contact the author of that story, Thomas Hon Wing Polin, for substantiation and will get back to you when and if they do.

    I published it because it fit most of what I knew and suspected about the outbreak.

    It looked to me like a White House leak, but who knows?

  327. Amanda says:

    IMO, David Icke nails the hoax virus!

    DAVID ICKE – THE TRUTH BEHIND THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC: COVID-19 LOCKDOWN & THE ECONOMIC CRASH

  328. anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:
    @Spaclasois

    Ding ding! Another one-and-done, drive by commenter.

  329. jsinton says:

    I’m sorry. I’m not buying that the Chinese are out of the woods. Epoch Times reports the loss of 21 million cellphone users in the first quarter. I think the Chinese massage and propagandize the virus figures just like they lie about their economic data. It’s a feature, not a bug.

    • Replies: @Tor597
  330. Pft says:

    Dr Gao attended Event 201 and the outbreak began when he returned to China. First case now known to have been treated November 17

    If the virus was circulating in the US since August 2019 it certainly didn’t spread very quickly and suddenly changed from affecting young vapers to old and sick people. Are IQ’s really dropping this quickly?

    There is an agenda of course, and its the same agenda as those behind Climate Change Terror. A total remake of the economy and global/national governance. Total control over individuals. The same folks behind the Pandemic Industrial Complex are behind Climate Change and Digital ID/Reproductive Management, Mandatory Vaccinations. Bill Gates, Rockefeller Foundation , Global Financial Institutions, and of course the worlds Central Banks and UN institutions like WHO and World Bank (pandemic bonds anyone?).

    Its about the coming Green Economy thats being planned. An authoritarian world government where everyone is controlled by Technocrats using technology (5G, IoT, surveillance, smart meters, big data, digital ID, social credit scores), for the purpose , so they say, of meeting the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development. And lets not forget Big Pharma with Mandatory Vaccinations for all. Experimental DNA changing vaccines this fall, what could go wrong?

    They knew they couldn’t achieve what they want with only Climate Change fears since the dubious consequences are too distant for most people except the young, so they need to resort to something that will generate immediate fears, especially for older people and perhaps something that will reduce the number of older people. They have actually been preparing for a large scale Pandemic for 20 years with a few trial runs conducted with SARS, MERS, Swine Flu, Ebola, Zika, Bird Flu. Of course. The 1976 Swine Flu and maybe even HIV pandemic gave them the idea of how useful Pandemics or the threat of Pandemic can be to create social demand for testing, vaccinations,
    travel/immigrant restrictions and behavioral changes. Bioterrorism is clearly effective. What next, Global War on Pandemics? Nanobots that monitor individuals health 24/7 and reports to authorities via 5G health and location data for each individual with their digital id. Homeland Security to screen incoming travelers for disease? Automatic quarantine fir anyone who is on the streets and detected with fever by IR cameras and drones? Fever prisons?

    Obviously they couldn’t unleash a deadly new virus that puts them at risk too. So this is not too deadly, assuming its even a new virus and not just of a creation of a test made to be positive in a percentage of people who mostly only get tested when they are real sick.
    People would figure it out eventually so they had to bring down the economy to reinforce the Pandemic Virus, that way they guarantee panic and fear that would allow them to make rapid changes. Nobody was worried much in 2009 because the economic collapse had already happened and it was business as usual, especially when people realized it was just the flu, and nobody was turning into zombies or dropping dead in the streets.

    The collaboration with China is interesting as well. Two Words. Fake Wrestling. We made China, from when we betrayed the KMT and withheld aid as Stalin was arming the Communists, to throwing Taiwan under the bus and recognizing China, to MFN despite them being communists (unlike sanctions against FSU, Cuba, Iran, Venezuela). Tariffs are not sanctions.

    If you look at the research thats been done on corona viruses gain of function and corona virus/ebola/zika virus vaccines you run into the same names a lot, Chinese scientists (Shi Zhengli) , American scientists (Ralph Baric-UNC) , Wuhan , UNC, Duke all funded by DARPA, NSAID, NIH , USAMRIID, chinese military, chinese cdc ,Bill Gates, etc, often in collaboration with each other. As noted, George Gao of China CDC attended Event 201 funded by Gates

    China is the model for future governance. Look at the praise they get for the handling of Covid 19. Completely ignoring the reality that China did not tell its own people about the risk immediately and refused to let in major foreign epidemiological teams and delayed release of samples and genomic sequences.

    Nationalism is now a useful tool of the Globalists. Globalism is for the controlling elite (corporate and philanthropic individuals via Foundations). They control nationalist leaders who use alleged external threats from other nations as a means to control their populations. Immigration and party politics serves to divide populations. Divide and rule. China has neither party politics nor immigration to divide people so must resort to playing up conflict with other countries (like the US was behind Covid). The same is true in Russia albeit to a lesser extent. Conflicts between nations, and conflicts between political parties are for the most part Fake Wrestling.

    There is unification among the global elite and has been since around 1990 when the FSU, Chinese and European (under the EU) elites united under WTO and neoliberalism with its associated wealth inequality, while forcing austerity measures on populations used to socialism, with democratic socialism faring better than communist socialism . China and Soviet elites saw how much better Western Elites lived and wanted the same. Russia went all in with oligarchal capitalism and Democracy. China decided to keep their socialist religion with Fake Socialism while turning state assets over to the party elite who privatized (in their name) the profitable assets socializing the losses (not unlike us).

    Democratic capitalist countries like the US who once had a productive economy that made stuff (besides food) were transitioned into neoliberal debt based service sectors that produced mainly financial products like derivatives and sub-prime backed securities. Profits by multinationals were increased by labour arbitrage using cheap labor and booking profits overseas to avoid taxes in US and Europe.

    The Rockefeller Foundation funded a study on the consequences of the next Pandemic in 2010. One of the more likely scenarios was what they called Lock Step .

    “A world of tighter top-down government control and more authoritarian leadership…”

    Those in power also realized the asset bubble and Ponzi economy could not be sustained. COVID-19 can be blamed for the crash. That takes central banks, the Federal Reserve, investment firms, and other economic criminals off the hook . They will be rewarded with tens of trillions of bailout dollars. Some will trickle to the little people to pacify them. Maybe Medicare for all (last scare in 2009 gave us Obamacare and 4 billion for the vaccine industry), maybe guaranteed income, definitely digital ID, forced vaccination, and much much less freedom.

    • Replies: @FB
  331. Iris says:
    @Sean

    The Chinese themselves say the first known infection occurred on the 17th of November, with five infections per day after that.

    Hasbara Sean making things up as he goes …

    The Chinese have no clue when the first infection occurred, as they have been unable to trace Patient 0.

    Which, incidentally, hints at a simultaneous contamination of several separate clusters.

    Which would indicate either imported, or deliberate contamination.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Zarathustra
  332. Anon[200] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Thanks for showing us why we should never allow citizens of China, India etc. to become citizens of the US. You people will never be loyal to the US. No matter where you go, it’s always China #1! India #1!

    Please hurry up and move the F back to your beloved motherland. The US does not need more fifth columnists among us, we have enough with the Zionist filth.

  333. Iris says:
    @Art

    Dear Art;

    They test only people who show signs, or are high risk.

    China, like most countries who abide by International Health Regulations, report these figures to the WHO for monitoring by expert committess. It would be stupid and pointless to lie: the Chinese are too smart for that. Best.

  334. onebornfree says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    “The Russians gave up Communism. Can we agree on that?”

    No, we can’t agree on that. They might not call it communism anymore, now I guess the label might be “neo-socialism”, or “fascism,” or “state capitalism”, or just plain ole’ “collectivism” .

    These [including “communism”], are all just slightly different variants of what is usually referred to generically as “collectivism”. Same $hit, different label to fool the gullible,[ like yourself, apparently].😎.

    The imagined differences between them all are as much an illusion as the “differences” between the Democrats and the Republicans in the US, while the ultimate goal of them all is exactly the same, specifically, total control of all resources, and yours , mine , and everyone elses total enslavement.

    “Regards” onebornfree

    • Replies: @lysias
    , @obwandiyag
  335. utu says:
    @Sean

    I am not convinced. The stigma and fatwa awaiting any microbiologist who would pursue the hypothesis that the virus was lab created is so great that I must take any claims that the culprit virus is natural with a grain of salt. Articles like the ones you linked are not quantitative. Basically they say: trust us because we know it is so.

    Furthermore I believe that it is possible to have lab created virus that will be almost impossible to prove its artificial origin. Here I described a possible process of creation of such a virus:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/corona-cost/#comment-3768878
    You find a known virus in nature (in the database of known viruses) that requires minimum number of modifications to obtain the desired gain of function. Furthermore you can create intermediate stage viruses and introduce them into the nature (some animals) and then have your trusted scientists to discover them and upload them to the database of known viruses. So when the culprit virus is identified during the epidemic and cross checked against what is in the database it may appear as it is a product of natural random mutations from its known precursors.

    Otoh, I think it should not be too expensive to hire a postdoc outside of academia setting and have him go through the completed database of viruses including all versions of the covid-19 to get an impartial, outside of the academia and national research labs opinion about the likelihood of covid-19 being natural or not. This would require some detective work of looking into the precursor viruses that are considered natural whether indeed they are natural: who found them first and where and do they have their own precursors in nature or did they come ab nihilo.

  336. antibeast says:
    @Priss Factor

    That was obviously “staged” just like 9/11.

  337. @Ron Unz

    You’re 100% right to point out that the USA is not 100% infected. If this theory is true, flu and pneumonia treatment in the USA in 2019 and early 2020 was suppressing COVID-19. Very unlikely, but that would be so important that it should be investigated. Has there even been a change in treatment? It’s not working now as cases are exploding in the USA.

    Of course, strict quarantine of early US military cases might also have slowed it down or crushed it in the USA. That’s also improbable. This is a theory that justifies investigation but not belief. [email protected]

    • Replies: @ploni almoni
  338. Anonymous[136] • Disclaimer says:
    @Priss Factor

    That video is from somewhere in SE Asia. Just like that bat soup video was from Palau.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  339. Iris says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    A new and relatively extraordinary claim has been made by an Oxford epidemiology professor, who lead a study concluding that half the UK’s population has probably already been infected by SARS-CoV-2, and hence the UK has already developped herd immunity.

    https://www.ft.com/content/5ff6469a-6dd8-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

    The modelling by Oxford’s Evolutionary Ecology of Infectious Disease group indicates that Covid-19 reached the UK by mid-January at the latest. Like many emerging infections, it spread invisibly for more than a month before the first transmissions within the UK were officially recorded at the end of February.
    The research presents a very different view of the epidemic to the modelling at Imperial College London, which has strongly influenced government policy. “I am surprised that there has been such unqualified acceptance of the Imperial model,” said Prof Gupta

    The modelling brings back into focus “herd immunity”, the idea that the virus will stop spreading when enough people have become resistant to it because they have already been infected. The government abandoned its unofficial herd immunity strategy — allowing controlled spread of infection — after its scientific advisers said this would swamp the National Health Service with critically ill patients.

    They will start population testing for antibodies in the coming days, and don’t explain why “herd immunity” did not work in China. This is looking more and more fishy.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  340. Anonymous[712] • Disclaimer says:
    @Just Passing Through

    You don’t know anything about Imperial Japan.

    The Imperial Japanese were anti-Western Sinophiles who wanted to incorporate Chinese manpower into their Empire in order to push the West out of Asia.

    Given white nationalists’ recent history of committing genocide against the Chinese’s co-racialist Mongoloid Native Americans, and given the genocidal sentiments and aims that white nationalists have as you reveal here, the Chinese should seriously consider exterminating white nationalists out of self-defense in the near future when they have the chance as Chinese power grows and white nationalists’ power and numbers decline.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Anonymous
  341. TRM says:

    I truly hope it was accidental because if it was intentional then WW3 has started and payback will be a ….

    • Replies: @Gleimhart Mantooso
  342. Good article here on the origins of COVID-19.

    Brief points:

    1. No evidence that the virus arose in China.
    2. No evidence that the virus came from eating bats.
    3. Chinese normally do not eat bats.
    4. By insinuating that the virus is “Chinese” the Trump regime is deliberately opposing WHO instructions to not call germs by any geographic term.
    5. Viruses jump species all the time (as I mentioned a few days ago).
    6. The Chinese did not institute any kind of cover up and were instead aggressively proactive in containment measures once they realised that it was a pandemic. Unlike the EU and the Trump regime waited until hundreds of deaths before beginning quarantine measures. If there is anybody responsible for turning it into a pandemic it is the EU and America.

    http://thesaker.is/will-covid-19-be-known-as-the-chinese-virus-or-the-trump-virus/

    In India I noted a sudden splurge of Whatsapp forwards blaming China for “creating Coronavirus” in order to “crash the western economy and rule the world”. It was not in the regular media, which of course would be subject to counter by the Chinese embassy, but on Indian WhatsApp, and various versions all appeared at approximately the same time and all featuring English of a markedly better standard than the average Indian conspiracy theory claptrap and anti-Muslim/anti-Pakistani/anti-secularism ranting. I do not think that this is a coincidence any more than I think it is a coincidence that those forwards all appeared just after China successfully crushed the virus. It is obvious to me that this is an orchestrated sponsored campaign to smear China and project America as a helpless victim instead of the primary creator of the conditions that led to a localised outbreak, whatever its origins, becoming a pandemic. There is only one logical source of this sponsored campaign, and I don’t need to tell you who that could be.

    • Replies: @vot tak
  343. MBlanc46 says:

    My goodness, who knew that we had a Maoist cell operating right here at unz.com?

    • Agree: Gleimhart Mantooso
  344. @Dannyboy

    Plenty of people have and the are happier,healthier, and better off for it than their forebears were under feudalism.

  345. DB Cooper says:
    @Just Passing Through

    Enjoy:

    On 24th October 1943, Australian commando Leonard Siffleet was beheaded on Aitape Beach in Papua New Guinea, along with two Ambonese, H. Pattiwal and M. Reharing.
    This photograph, of Japanese soldier Yasuno Chikao just before he struck, was taken from the body of a Japanese casualty later in the war.

    http://ww2today.com/24th-october-1943-japanese-execute-australian-commando-leonard-siffleet

    • Thanks: Chinaman
  346. vot tak says:

    Very interesting article from Romanoff. I’ll post some of it, but what he also describes about how the virus got going in Italy and South Korea is also very interesting.

    COVID-19: Targeting Italy and South Korea? “The Chain of Transmission of Infection”

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/covid-usa-targeting-italy-and-south-korea/5707042

    “For both Italy and South Korea, I could also add that there is no supposed “bio-weapons lab” anywhere within reach (as was claimed for China), but that wouldn’t be accurate. There are indeed bio-weapons labs easily within reach of the stricken areas in both Italy and South Korea – but they belong to the US Military.

    Korea is particularly notable in this regard because it was proven likely that MERS resulted from a leak at the American military base at Osan. The official Western narrative for the MERS outbreak in South Korea was that a Korean businessman became infected in the Middle East then returned to his home in Gyeonggi Province and spread the infection. But there was never any documentation or evidence to support that claim, and to my best knowledge it was never verified by the South Korean Government.

    Pertinent to this story is that according to the Korean Yonhap News Service, at the onset of the outbreak about 100 South Korean military personnel were suddenly quarantined at the USAF Osan Air Base. The Osan base is home to the JUPITR ATD military biological program that is closely related to the lab at Fort Detrick, MD, both being US military bio-weapons research labs.
    .
    There is also a (very secretive) WHO-sponsored International Vaccine Institute nearby, which is (or at least was) managed by US military biological weapons personnel. At the time, and given the quarantine mentioned above, the event sequence accepted as most likely was that of a leak from a JUPITR biowarfare project. (5) (6)
    .
    The Korean path is similar with that of Italy. If we look at a map of the virus-stricken areas of Italy, there is a US military base within almost a stone’s throw of all of them. This is of course merely a case of circumstance arousing suspicion, and by no means constitutes proof of anything at all.

    However, there is a major point here which cannot be overlooked, namely the fact of simultaneous eruptions of a new virus in three different countries, and in all three cases no clear epidemiology, and an inability to identify either the original source or a patient zero

    Multiple experts on biological weapons are in unanimous agreement that eruptions in a human population of a new and unusual pathogen in multiple locations simultaneously, with no clear idea of source and cases with no proven links, is virtually prima facie evidence of a pathogen deliberately released, since natural outbreaks can almost always be resolved to one location and one patient zero. The possibility of a deliberate leak is as strong in Italy and South Korea as in China, all three nations apparently sharing the same suspicions.”

    • Agree: Robjil
    • Replies: @Iris
  347. @Priss Factor

    “Also, Chinese need to stop being so cruel to animals, disease or no disease. It’s a sick civilization that conflates cruelty with power and kind-heartedness with weakness. ”

    So they’re like women???

  348. @Anonymous

    That video is from somewhere in SE Asia. Just like that bat soup video was from Palau.

    Let’s assume it is from SE Asia. Fact is it’s a Chinese guy doing it. There are lots of Chinese in SE Asia.

    Also, China is infamous for its annual massacre-and-devour-dogs festival.

  349. vot tak says:

    Ten Questions for the U.S.: Where did the Novel Coronavirus Come From?

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/ten-questions-for-the-u-s-where-did-the-novel-coronavirus-come-from/5707035

    [MORE]

    “Given that some major U.S. media and politicians made groundless claims that the novel coronavirus originates in China, blamed and slandered China, even asked for an apology from China, then I have every reason to ask 10 questions for the United States about its origin too. Better still, unlike the U.S., I did a lot of homework and will base my questions on international media coverage of COVID-19.”

    (Here are the first 3 questions)

    “Question 1

    Since the director of the U.S. Centers of Disease Control, Robert Redfield admitted that some Americans seemingly dying from flu were tested positive for the novel coronavirus, can I conclude that those people actually died from the novel coronavirus? Among the 34 million influenza patients, with a death toll of 20,000, how many were misdiagnosed?

    When did the misdiagnoses start? And did it actually start from August 2019? These questions are so vital that the world is waiting for an explanation from the United States.

    Question 2

    When there were some misdiagnoses admitted by U.S. CDC, I’m scratching my head – isn’t the U.S. that owns the best medical technologies in the world? Why did that happen?

    As the ground glass opacity (white patches) can be easily seen in CT scans of the lungs of patients with the novel coronavirus-infected pneumonia, it should have been an easy thing to separate the cases of COVID-19 and H1N1 flu. But why were there so many misdiagnoses?

    Well, that reminds me of the U.S. Vice President Mike Pence’s request of controlling all messaging regard to the coronavirus. Why does the White House call for messaging control? Does the U.S. need to hide something? Are they plotting some conspiracy?

    Question 3

    Why did the U.S. withdraw from the 1972 Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention (BTWC) in 2001? Why did it try to prevent a monitoring mechanism for the execution of the Convention? Is it standing in the way of developing biological weapon for the U.S.?

    If not, why are there new biological laboratories in Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan? Are those labs for biochemical warfare? It’s impossible that they are keeping viruses as pets. If the U.S. is aiming at provoking a biochemical war, who would be the first target then?

    Also, how about the swine flu outbreak in China last year? The odd thing is that it broke out in different places simultaneously instead of breaking out separately. Why were drones used to poison the pigs? Was the U.S. behind all that? I heard that it was the pork speculators. But that theory makes no sense – since the swine flu killed millions of pigs in China during the same period of time, pork speculators would suffer great loss instead of profits.

    The best possible answer to that was foreign meddling. I was among those who wondered if the U.S. had anything to do with that and hoped for an explanation.”

  350. Anon[279] • Disclaimer says:

    The WSJ’s resident Ziocon Walter Russell Mead wrote a column today on why coronavirus will bring an end to populism, because this crisis shows that the world needs better coordination to help fight pandemics.

    I don’t know how anyone other than a brainless globalist Ziocon stooge can come to such a conclusion. Seems to me most thinking people would realize this is happening exactly because there is too much globalism, and that we need a lot less of it. The airline industry – the #1 source of globalism, pandemics, and global warming, needs to go die period. It’s utterly ridiculous that we are again bailing them out.

    The best thing that could come out of this crisis would be nationalism on steroids: a complete decoupling between US and China, a return of manufacturing to the US, an end to all immigration, repatriation of all non-citizens, and a drastic cut to international travels resulting in many international airlines going out of business.

  351. lysias says:
    @onebornfree

    Post-Communist Russia has rejected atheism and embraced Christianity. The Russian Orthodox Church is more or less part of the Russian state. Meanwhile, Western secular societies have more or less abandoned Christianity. The sides in the Cold War have changed. It is now the West that is Godless.

    Object to enslavement by the state? Christianity is a much more effective check on this than any secular Western ideology.

  352. Anon[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    No need for any mutual extermination. White nationalists just want all non-whites out of white majority countries. The world is big enough for whites, blacks, browns, yellows. We can all co-exist peacefully, just not on the same continent.

  353. vot tak says:
    @Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist

    The israeli’s colonial trump regime began calling the virus “Chinese virus” only recently, about the same time China got the virus contained. This is psywar, pure and simple, and further evidence trump’s owners seeded the virus.

    Trump’s coordinated public relations ploy to blame China

    https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-03-22/Trump-s-coordinated-public-relations-ploy-to-blame-China-P4DgpR2qFa/index.html

    “A State Department cable obtained by the news outlet “The Daily Beast” has found that U.S. President Donald Trump has demanded an all-government-agency effort to collaboratively blame China for the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic.

    The cables emphasize a series of talking points which argue that Beijing implemented a “cover-up,” hid the existence of the disease from the world, failed to warn other countries and that they rejected America’s assistance, all because the Communist Party “cared more about its reputation than people’s suffering.” Evidence has already shown that this plan is in motion, with organizations such as the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) also tweeting anti-China content along the same lines.”

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  354. Iris says:
    @vot tak

    In summary, the article indicates that there seems to be multiple simultaneous contaminations with impossibility to find Patient Zero in all of China, Italy and South Korea.

    If this is true, the Neocons are involved up to their neck in this “pandemic”.

  355. Chinaman says:
    @22pp22

    You do know that almost every aspect of Japanese culture, down to their names… originated from China, right ? ramen, sushi, toilet paper you are hoarding..that’s all from China .

    After Pearl Harbor, may be Japanese should have pushed forward and colonise America to civilise Americans with Confucianism.

    • Troll: Gleimhart Mantooso
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Poco
    , @22pp22
  356. d dan says:
    @Erebus

    Erebus: You are probably right in your original conjecture that those military personnel did NOT get malaria. Please see comment# 595 & 607 by TT.

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/?showcomments#comment-3792847

  357. @Commentator Mike

    Germans eat lots of butter.
    In Italy is spreading cov 19 like crazy because they cook almost exclusively with olive oil.
    ……………………………..
    When we talk about that it is made in USA virus, it does not automatically means that Congress, Senate. and Trump eventually agreed to release it. It was most probably some patriotic group from CIA and Military with mentality like this onebornfree who did it.

  358. FB says: • Website
    @Pft

    China is the model for future governance.

    The only sane thing you said…

    PS…get a thermometer, pronto…

  359. Lo says:

    Why so many conspiracies? SARS was originated from China, and scientists, including Chinese scientists warned, as recently as a year ago that there might be another corona virus pandemic originating from China. What is so difficult to understand about the fact that these people are eating stuff that we haven’t widely consumed until very recently (and that is in China alone), including very exotic animals such as pangolins. Given they also have ZERO safety and cleanliness standards, these wild meat markets are all perfect petri dishes for evolution and animal to animal transmission.

    They are now coming up with these bullshit conspiracies in the hope of controlling the damage. Right now, everyone is so pissed with Chinese, it is just that people are busy trying to survive that they cannot focus on China. Once this is over there could be serious setbacks for China, including compensating victims, because this isn’t just caused by an accident but also thanks to the gross negligence and irresponsibility of the CCP that it was allowed to become a major pandemic. So all these stories are just stories to confuse and distract people from the culprit, which is China.

    It wouldn’t even be surprising if CCP allowed it to become a pandemic, calculating they have the capacity to manufacture disease fighting equipment, ability to control population thoroughly and an utter disregard for human life. In fact, it wasn’t a miscalculation, if they did think this -considering how evil they are given concentration camps, torture, organ harvesting and all the animal cruelty, combined with a population apathetic to the suffering of even other Chinese- it was a success as far as a strategy. CCP is responsible. They should be forced to compensate, and if they don’t want to pay, they should be kicked out of WTO and all international bodies. Then a total blockade of China and Chinese should follow. Once this is dealt with, we can finish off other enemies.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @TT
  360. Half-Jap says:
    @DB Cooper

    The Koreans are an entirely different matter, but selective and self-serving history certainly would have a powerful effect. There’s an interesting book out in Korea about this, and was one of the best sellers. In any event, every people are entitled to their stories, regardless of veracity, and up to them to change it. Pity the Germans for one that’s imposed and enforced.

    I do not deny that what ended up as an invasion of the mainland lead to the CCP, and that such was most unnecessary (I blame Prince and PM Konoe as the main culprit, and the nasty propaganda the media pushed out about the Chinese), and there are certainly actions that require accounting for and justice, but the accepted history is the victor’s history. There are facts mixed with fiction, and it has served the CCP well to keep it that way, including maintaining hatred as a useful buffer against discontent against the CCP.

    I only have respect for the Chinese, and wish them all the best, regardless of how bitter and hateful people can be.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @d dan
  361. @Dannyboy

    Thanks for your hopes. I hope so too. And I hope you do not get to experience it. So you can suffer.

  362. @onebornfree

    Yes, the free market will solve the coronavirus crisis. Using it’s wonderful invisible hand.

    • Replies: @onebornfree
  363. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317175442.htm

    All natural not man made. The conspiracy con-artists on this site are talking about it being a bioweapon because they want to stroke their ego and probably sell a book eventually to the gullible masses.

  364. This is literally the most virulent vile piece of Chinese Communist agitprop I have seen so far concerning the Chinese Virus, aka Covid-19.

    Covid-19 is MADE IN CHINA, released IN CHINA via Chinese arrogance and sloppiness.

    Covid-19 is a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY (and everything that term implies for the CCP leadership) and CHINA MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

    • Replies: @ploni almoni
  365. FB says: • Website
    @Iris

    The Chinese have no clue when the first infection occurred, as they have been unable to trace Patient 0.

    The forgot to check with ‘utu’ who has already figured that out, right here on this thread…

    Which, incidentally, hints at a simultaneous contamination of several separate clusters.

    YES…

    I already discussed in several threads that the very forceful reaction of the Chinese, quaranting millions of people, building a hospital in a matter of days, marshaling the full resources of the state very swiftly…points to the possibility that Chinese specialists realized very quickly they were dealing with a HUGE viral load…not just one ‘patient zero’ from a wet market…which story btw, Chinese researchers have pretty much rejected…

    You don’t go ballistic like that for no good reason…and a massive viral contamination points to foul play…

  366. Chinaman says:
    @Just Passing Through

    I am genuinely taken back by this level of hatred and the genocidal fantasies.

    It is fascinating since it is not race based but specifically aim at the Chinese .

    Can you actually tell the difference between a ethics Jap and ethic Chinese if they were both born and bred in America and speak the way you do ? In your Nazi fantasy, Would you actually make that distinction about their ethnicity before sending them to the gas chamber ? I think you will not waste any time on that and we are all just gooks to you, right ? I get mistaken as a Jap in the west all the time . Just curious

    What have the Chinese done to you beside producing most of the stuff you use on a daily basis? Perhaps envy have poisoned your soul and fermented this hatred.

    You would probably have said and done the same thing to the Japanese at their height of their economic prowess.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  367. @Iris

    Two (presumably American) commenters, above, described having had symptoms resembling Covid19’s and one lost a brother to it, all before the Wuhan outbreak. Their accounts match similar reports from Italy.
    I don’t know how many unique visitors have read that post, but it sounds like the virus may have been prevalent since last August–even worldwide. 

    Has anyone else experienced these symptoms of COVID-19:
    Fever
    Cough
    Shortness of breath
    Sore throat
    Headache
    Fatigue
    Nausea
    Vomiting
    Diarrhea

    Or these emergency warning signs:
    Trouble breathing
    Persistent pain or pressure in the chest
    New confusion or inability to arouse (wake) a person
    Bluish lips or face

    Your comment fuels my suspicions:

    A new and relatively extraordinary claim has been made by an Oxford epidemiology professor, who lead a study concluding that half the UK’s population has probably already been infected by SARS-CoV-2, and hence the UK has already developped herd immunity.

    https://www.ft.com/content/5ff6469a-6dd8-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

    The modelling by Oxford’s Evolutionary Ecology of Infectious Disease group indicates that Covid-19 reached the UK by mid-January at the latest. Like many emerging infections, it spread invisibly for more than a month before the first transmissions within the UK were officially recorded at the end of February.

    The research presents a very different view of the epidemic to the modelling at Imperial College London, which has strongly influenced government policy. “I am surprised that there has been such unqualified acceptance of the Imperial model,” said Prof Gupta.

    The modelling brings back into focus “herd immunity”, the idea that the virus will stop spreading when enough people have become resistant to it because they have already been infected. The government abandoned its unofficial herd immunity strategy — allowing controlled spread of infection — after its scientific advisers said this would swamp the National Health Service with critically ill patients.

    They will start population testing for antibodies in the coming days, and don’t explain why “herd immunity” did not work in China. This is looking more and more fishy.

    • Replies: @Iris
  368. @Wellens

    I agree!

    I also have a real bad feeling about this! Not just the virus, but the new Patriot Acts, corporate welfare, handing more control of “our” govt over to Wall St fascists, the austerity that will inevitably come later. Not good!

    I have to somewhat disagree with Mr. Unz that “our” govt is incompetent. Yes they are to some extent, but they’re mostly just greedy, and self serving. They’re not stupid for the most part. They know exactly what they’re doing.

    I’m thinking there were more cases of covid 19 early on, as some here have pointed out. Maybe they were just treated/reported as “flu” patients. Remember that millions of Americans have little or no health “insurance” So many of these folks would have just tried to tough out the sickness. Most would avoid going to a doctor all together unless they were half dead.

    Anyone know the numbers of deaths from the “flu” or other similar illnesses from this period?

    Seems to be what the Chinese are thinking as well. I was reading this Chinese officials twitter feed recently. He was retweeting people from US who were describing illnesses they had around this time. Pretty interesting stuff in the threads. Theres probably many more people like these that never went to doctors or hospitals at all.


    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Lo
    , @Parfois1
  369. FB says: • Website
    @dimples

    I already debunked that completely ridiculous blog article as being written by ignorant amateurs who have nothing to so with science…

    There is nothing of value there…their idiotic premise is that the Chinese built this virus in the Wuhan lab and it got out through ‘incompetence’…

    Yeah, no…Chinese have shown all kind of competence to the entire world in dealing with what is quite possibly yet another biological warfare attack by the US…

    • Replies: @Been_there_done_that
  370. DB Cooper says:
    @Half-Jap

    “There are facts mixed with fiction, and it has served the CCP well to keep it that way, including maintaining hatred as a useful buffer against discontent against the CCP.”

    Nonsense. Where did you get this? Yes MSM for sure. This is one of the narrative pushed by the fake news media but I haven’t seen any evidence to support it. The CCP came to power in 1949 and never have exploited the issue (they were busy doing shit like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution and other shit) for political purpose until late in the 1990s when it must have realized that Japanese revisionism is on full swing. Only then did they start addressing the issue. Go to China and visit any war memorial sites and none of them were built before the 1980s may be even later when they could have if they want to exploit the issue, unlike the exploitation of victimhood by Japan when they reenact the atomic bombing year after year after year from day one in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. CCP’s revisionism is not in creating hatred for Japan but in claiming credit that it is they who fought Japan when in fact the overwhelming majority of the fighting was done by the Nationalist government. This is the most sensitive issue to them even to today, who (the Nationalist party or the Communist party) fought the Japanese. Most of the Communist were hiding in the vast hinterland of China during the Sino-Japanese war where you couldn’t see a ghost of the Japanese.

  371. Chinaman says:
    @Sick of Orcs

    I envy your freedom.

    You have the freedom to die from the coronavirus because of some marauding spring breakers and all the selfish people that is spreading it in america.

    You and all Americans will have the right and privilege to PAY thousands for the coronavirus test. Americans are not commies and it is a free market. It shouldn’t be a free test as they do in China!

    That’s freedom and human rights that the Chinese will never have but you can keep those rights to yourself. We are happy being communist here and not getting infected.

    I think all Americans should exercise their freedoms and forgot about self quarantines and social distancing. Fuck it…It is within the infected individual’s right and freedom to go about their daily life and continue to spread the virus.

    “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. “. It is time you defend those liberties and die in the name of freedom and democracy!

  372. DB Cooper says:
    @Chinaman

    Heck even the name of the reign of the Japanese emperors are taken from ancient Chinese text from generations to generations up to the present emperor.

  373. @Godfree Roberts

    They’ve made 150 major promises in the past 70 years and kept all of them–and that’s why they are where they are today.

    What was the promise of the Great Leap Forward made some sixty years ago?

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  374. FB says: • Website
    @Lo

    Excuse me RETARD…

    Do they actually let you wander the streets…?

    It would seem that a person who is practically blind with stupidity would quickly get run over by traffic…not something that caregivers would likely do…

    • Replies: @Lo
  375. d dan says:
    @Half-Jap

    “I only have respect for the Chinese, and wish them all the best, regardless of how bitter and hateful people can be.”

    Most Japanese alive today are not responsible for any bad deeds of WW2. Likewise, most reasonable Chinese understand that. Neither do most Chinese today care much about Mao. This is 21st Century, and this thread is about the origin of Covid-19. So why did so many of you been hijacked to this “ancient” topic about WW2?

    The future of Asia (and the world) lies on a friendly and reconciled Sino-Japanese relationship. Don’t let trolls prevent the healing process. Recall how they started this. They are the true evils here.

    “22pp22”:

    “Think how much better China would be today if the Japanese had been allowed to conquer it and civilize it back in the 1930s.”

    “Just Passing Through”:

    “I wish the Japanese had finished the job and unleased the Unit 731 plagues on the mainland to clear or out for future Japanese settlers. That piece of land wouldn’t be churning out insectoid people and diseases had the Japs did God’s work and exterminated you all.”

    • Agree: RodW
    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  376. Lo says:
    @FB

    Look Russian professor dropped by to defend his comrades. He understands once China is crushed Russia will be getting much more fire under its already burning bottoms. Here is a quick hint for you; Chinese secretly hate you, they also have plans for Russia’s East. Since you’re not very smart, you may not realize it but I guarantee you Chinese have no concern for others. What makes you think you are different from Uighurs or Dzungars in the eyes of Chinese? You are just a tool, you think you can be safer by aligning with China, except you never think what would happen if USA somehow collapsed and China become the sole super power with its great hunger. Right professor? Lol.

    • LOL: Seraphim
    • Replies: @FB
    , @Bookish1
  377. Parfois1 says:
    @Trond Andresen

    But what if some individual – being a deep state operative embedded with the group of U.S. athletes – deliberately let loose the virus in Wuhan just before leaving? So that no one in the U.S. delegation was infected?

    That has been implicitly factored in the comments. No-one knows yet the details of the yet-to-confirm hypothetical operation, let alone whether the athletes or entourage were the “operatives”. Obviously, a planned operation would more likely involve an outsider embedded into the delegation as cover.

    What makes this supposition a candidate for the smoking gun is the convergence of convenient coincidences and opportunities that elegantly fit into a pattern of a recognizable modus operandi by the USual suspects, whether Deep State, CIA or some other agents. Let’s not forget that many hush-hush jobs are carried out by outside contractors (off-shoring) to avoid accountable supervision and potential legal entanglements; for instance, the proliferation of US biological and chemical laboratories in client countries on the periphery of Russia, Iran and China to prevent internal scrutiny and avoid treaty obligations. The spying on Assange by the CIA was done through a Spanish eavesdropping company.

    An intrepid journalist of the Seymour Hersch or John Pilger variety could – with sufficient resources – easily (?) investigate whether any of the suspect patient athletes were the carriers of the CV-19. In the old days of decent and competitive journalism that would offer the chance of a great scoop, but not anymore.

  378. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Chinaman

    specifically aim at the Chinese

    What have the Chinese done to you

    It’s very simple, really. It isn’t logical, it’s based on primal emotions.

    People are very uncomfortable with what they don’t understand. And even when they understand something, they are afraid of it and distrust it simply because it’s different.

    They prefer that culture/race which they don’t understand, to be far away (like on the other side of the universe) or better still, to simply not exist, period.

    Okay, that’s for most people in the world, even Chinese, Russians, Arabs, South Americans, Africans etc.

    But in the case of the Western world, there’s the added factor that Western Civilization was the most advanced in the world, not really challenged, for the last 400 to 500 years, and especially for the last 250 years of the industrial age.

    So we have become used to being on top, and also we are used to having ALL the good things in life like power, wealth, military force, technology ONLY for ourselves, and NONE for non-westerners.

    It is normal for us to DENY all those good things to all other cultures and races. Many in the West feel that other races have no right to learn from us, and have no right to have what we have.

    We don’t care if they advance by hard work, study and peaceful means, they cannot be allowed to go forward, period. What ever non-whites have, they didn’t work for it, we “gave” it to them. This western attitude has been true for almost 5 centuries.

    When we interact with other cultures, we don’t like it when they start learning from us. They are supposed to remain backward and weak, like Africans, South Americans, Muslims and even Hindus (no offense meant for any of those cultures).

    So the main reason many white westerners hate and fear China is this: China is far away, very different to the point of being very alien, and worst of all, China is getting more advanced.

    That’s China’s main crime: developing so fast, yet being so different.

    China, just by being itself, just by developing, threatens to end the Western monopoly on advancement, development and the good things in life – on top of being so very alien in appearance, in language, in thinking, in everything.

    This is shocking to many Americans and Europeans, but normal ones can get used to the idea that we are no longer unique.
    Abnormal ones – well, they have these strange genocidal fantasies against Chinese, and even other Asians.

  379. Truth3 says:
    @Commentator Mike

    You’re an Ass.

    I’m not a braggert from Ft. Bragg, I simply tell the Truth.

    Assholes like you don’t get it, never will.

    My pitchfork never misses, either.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  380. Lo says:
    @redmudhooch

    What morons these Communist Chinese and Russian propagandists are. It is as if we cannot see their cheap tricks, to clear CCP of responsibility just pretend it was spread long before China’s gross irresponsibility caused the pandemic. The problem is that, even if this was the case, fact remains they kept these weird bushmeat markets open -even after SARS- and in fact encouraged farming of these exotic species as a source of income. So not matter how much they squirm, they will not be able to escape responsibility. China should pay for this mess.

  381. Anonymous,[603] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    I’ve read that the Chinese are fully aware of this fact. It’s accepted as a given among Chinese leadership that Zionist/Isreali interests are the true power who steer America. So this may prove to be a very, very bad move by the ZUSA. The Chinese have a racial sense we no longer have in the Western world, and they can hold a grudge almost as well as the Jews. This will never be forgiven/forgotten if the Chinese establish it as a fact (to their own satisfaction)

  382. @Craig Nelsen

    Here are the promises: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-year_plans_of_China.

    Some of the Great Leap promises were delayed by the worst El Nino event on record (it wiped out 50% of Canada’s Prairie wheat crop and left New England with the worst drought in 300 years) but they were all eventually kept. Here’s the background:

    The Chinese made their first car, their first truck, their first tractor, their first airplane, their first gunboat, and so on during the Great Leap Forward. Of the ten biggest reservoirs in China today, the Danjiangkou Reservoir, Miyun Reservoir, Shisanling Reservoir, Xiashan Reservoir, Xinanjiang Reservoir, Lushui Reservoir, Xinfengjiang Reservoir, Songtao Reservoir, Shengzhong Reservoir, and Guanyinge Reservoir, nine were built during the Great Leap Forward. (In 1949 there were only 6 big reservoirs, 13 medium-sized reservoirs, and 1,200 small reservoirs in China).

    The Great Leap built 302 big reservoirs (a 50-fold increase, mostly during the Great Leap Forward), 2,110 medium-sized reservoirs (a 162-fold increase), and 82,000 small reservoirs (a 68-fold increase). The total reservoir capacity rose from 20 billion cubic metres before Liberation to 450 billion cubic meters in 1976 – a 21-fold increase. These irrigation projects, combining the functions of irrigation, flood control and electricity generation, effectively mitigated the potential damages of floods and droughts that threatened the livelihood of peasants for thousands of years. Chinese peasants no longer were helpless before the vicissitudes of nature for their grain production.Xinfengjiang Reservoir was nationally famous at the time it was built.

    [MORE]

    I had read about it before, but seeing it in person this summer nevertheless had a profound impact on me. The reservoir has a 14 billion cubic meter capacity, an average of ten cubic meters of clean water for each Chinese citizen today. It has generate billions of kilowatts of electricity, helping power Chinaʼs rural and urban development. It has been an important asset in flood control and irrigation for the region. Today, it is one of the most important water sources for Guangdong Province and Hong Kong. The Great Leap Forward also laid the foundation for Chinaʼs industrialization. During the three years of the Great Leap Forward, China made great strides in the output of steel, coal, machine tools and electricity. The increase of output over these three years accounted for 36.2 per cent of Chinaʼs total coal production, 29.6 per cent of Chinaʼs cloth production, and 25.9 per cent of Chinaʼs electricity generation between 1949 and 1979. Of the industrial projects the Chinese government launched between 1949 and 1964, two-thirds were started during the Great Leap Forward.

    During the second five-year-plan, which included the three years of the Great Leap Forward, China invested 120,090 million yuan and completed 581 big and medium industrial projects. Fixed national industrial assets increased by 861,820 million yuan. Without the hard work of the Great Leap Forward, it would be hard to imagine that China would be able to take off in the automobile, boat, transportation, and national defence industries. That China would develop nuclear bombs and satellites would be questionable. Great Leap Forward grain shortages?

    Post-Mao Chinese scholars, together with their foreign counterparts, try to paint a very dark picture of the Great Leap Forward. They claim that the Great Leap Forward created an unprecedented famine in China. They circulate rumours that 36 or more millions of people starved to death. In 1958, 1959 and 1960, the Americans, the Russians, the British, the Jiang Jieshi regime in Taiwan, the Japanese, and South Koreans were all hostile to China, had spies in China, and listening devices around China to monitor what was going on. But they did not have any evidence to show there was a famine in China at that time.

    The post-Mao struggle between the representatives of opposing lines in the Communist Party ended in an anti-Mao faction coming to power. This anti-Mao faction began a political campaign to tarnish the Mao era in order to legitimize their political return and to introduce a different political platform, opposed to that of Chairman Maoʼs. They started changing population statistics, and began to focus on the shortcomings of the Great Leap Forward. For many years, they only allowed one sided anti-Mao materials to be published. They used questionable methods to project the population changes in China during the Great Leap Forward, and eventually claimed dozens of millions of Chinese people perished during that period. A Chinese mathematics professor, Sun Jingxian, and an Indian economist, Utsa Patnaik, have refuted these claims and denounced them as an ideologically motivated attack on socialism.

    I will not repeat their argument here. Rather, I shall present some of my own field research, which will provide a case study of experiences of people in the Great Leap Forward and corroborate some of these findings. I grew up during the Great Leap Forward, and I have done rural research in China during the 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s. In 1958, the year when the commune was formed, we had the greatest summer and fall harvests in recorded history. People ate so well. That was true not only in my hometown in Shandong Province, but also in Henan and Anhui Provinces, where I studied.
    Peasants in Henan and Anhui told me that they were able to eat very well, better than ever before, in 1958. This indicates that the forming of the peopleʼs communes and the Great Leap Forward only improved peopleʼs livelihoods in 1958.

    In 1959, my hometown suffered a summer flood without precedent in the last hundred years. I still remember that my mother and my aunt took me to the fields in those days. After several days of rain, the ditches beside the roads were filled with water. All of our fields were water-logged. My mother pulled out some of the sweet potato plants which were planted about a month earlier, and saw no growth. I heard my mother tell my aunts that we were going to have a hard time that year. In the spring of 1960, my hometown had a very bad drought. On top of that, we had another very bad summer flood. The crops failed again. Quite a few people in my village migrated to the Northeast with their families, and quite a few young people left the village to look for opportunities elsewhere. Thus our region was hit very badly by natural disasters for two consecutive years.
    The Shandong Provincial Government, as well as the Central Government sent teams of investigators to our county to find out what was happening with the local leadership. The County Party Secretary Xu Hua and the Head of County Government Office Wang Changsheng were both dismissed by the upper government because of the grain shortage in the county. But during the two years of natural disasters, we got relief grains from the Central government, the provincial government, Qingdao City, Shanghai City and many other regions. I still remember the two dried wild vegetables shipped to us from Yunan Province: one with golden hair which we called ginmaogou (golden-haired dog), because it was shaped like a tiny dog, and another which was brown and shaped like a pig liver, called yezhugan (wild pig liver) by the local people. For many years, my parents kept a piece of each of these wild vegetables as souvenirs of the two hardship years, and also to remember the help we got from other people in China.
    People in Baoding Prefecture, Hebei Province, published a collection of memoirs titled During the Difficult Days, which describes how, amid the severe grain shortages, people worked together helping each other, and how the local government leaders shared the hardship of the common people. When I read the book, I was reminded that the reason very few people starved amid the natural disasters of the Great Leap Forward was because of the spirit of socialism. Whenever and wherever one place had difficulties, people from other places helped. I remember many peasants told me that if it were not for the help of the Peopleʼs Government, many people would have starved amid disasters like the one in 1960.

    By contrast, in Northern Henan Province (where the grain shortage during the Great Leap Forward was supposed to have been severe), five million people had starved to death in 1942. The Government at that time had done nothing to help the local people. In the 1990s, I accompanied Ralph Thaxton, my advisor in graduate school, to study (on a Guggenheim scholarship) the regionʼs famine. When he said that he had come to study the famine, peasants thought that he was studying the famine of 1942-3. During that 1942-43 famine, not only did five million people starve, but many people had to sell their land, their houses, and their children, before fleeing their hometowns. The local government and national government did nothing to help the people there.

    But nothing like that took place during the grain shortage of the Great Leap Forward. Amid the grain shortages, my maternal grandfather died of a disease. My paternal grandfather also died that year at the same age. They were both in their sixties. (Chinese peopleʼs life expectancy was less than 60 years then.) They had been sick for a long time. The grain shortage might have weakened them, and they may have eventually succumbed to disease. But I think there is a significant difference between that and saying that they starved to death. Only people with ulterior motives would blame principally the Great Leap Forward, or the public dining halls, or the peopleʼs communes, for the grain shortage we faced during these three years amid severe natural disasters. The grain shortage was caused first and foremost by natural disasters.

    Like my mother, my father never went to school when he was young. He started working as an apprentice when he was 13 years old. When the Communist Party came to power, the Government set up night schools for workers who wanted to learn how to read and write. He learned how to read and write at the night school. Later, the factory sent him to get training from Shandong Industrial College in Jinan. Because of the training he got, he and a few others were put in charge of building a steel factory in my county (Jimo County) during the Great Leap Forward.
    The factory was set up in 1958, and in a very short time span, the factory recruited 2000 workers from the rural areas in the county, mostly young men in their late teens and early twenties. For three months, my father interviewed and recruited these workers. Two years later, faced with economic difficulties caused by the natural disasters and the souring of relations with the Soviet Union, the Government decided to close down the steel factory.

    The 2,000 young workers my father recruited and trained were all asked to go back to their original villages. Mr. Sun Jingxian (who, as mentioned earlier, wrote a refutation of the inflated estimates of deaths during 1959-61) argues in his article that the alleged population loss (on paper) during the Great Leap Forward was partly caused by the fact that a large number of people moved in this period. First they moved as a result of industrialization at the beginning of the Great Leap Forward; and later they moved because the closing down of these factories led to workers being sent back. What happened in my fatherʼs factory could support Mr. Sunʼs argument. An important point I want to make here is that these rural youth received important training during the two years working in my fatherʼs factory.

    Let me tell you how I found out if people starved to death during the Great Leap Forward. I went to the places where the famine was supposed to have been very bad. I talked with all the old people in the village and asked them how many people starved to death in their village. In one village, where there were 2,000 people during the Great Leap Forward, some people said that about 100 people died and some people said that 50 people died. I then asked these same people to tell me the names of these people who died and how old these people were when they died. It turned out that in this village of 2,000 people, these old people could only name 15 people collectively, and those who died were all over 60 years old (when life expectancy then was less than 60 years), except one man who was in his forties. But this man was a mentally handicapped orphan, who lived alone, could not care for himself and had nobody else to help him. And sadly, he died prematurely. In the last 30- odd years, one heard many stories about starvation and famine during the Great Leap Forward. But most of the stories could not stand close scrutiny and examination.

    Frank Dikötter also claimed that he had documents to prove that Chairman Mao was willing to starve half of the Chinese people to death so that the other half could have more than enough to eat. My friend challenged him to produce the document. Dikötter said that he had an agreement with the source of the document not to show the document to anybody. But under pressure, he agreed to let my friend in Hong Kong to see the document. It turned out that the document was a speech by Chairman Mao at a meeting discussing the investment planned in industrial projects. China had planned to launch over one thousand industrial projects in 1960. Chairman Mao said in the speech that he would rather cut the number of investment projects by half so the Government would have enough money to quickly complete the remaining half of the projects. But Dikötter interpreted Chairman Maoʼs words to mean that he was willing to starve half the Chinese population in order that the other half have more than enough to eat. Dikötter claimed that he was a China specialist. I wonder if he was able to read and understand Chinese text, or he was in fact a linguistic genius who could read into the Chinese language something that was not there in the first place.

    I had a debate with one of my professors when he said in class that 40 million Chinese peasants starved to death in the Great Leap Forward. I asked him why the Chinese peasants, allegedly facing certain starvation, did not rebel during the Great Leap Forward. Chinese peasants had rebelled so many times in history when there was a famine. He said that Chinese people were too starved to rebel then. I said that apparently the Chinese peasants were not too starved to build thousands of reservoirs during the Great Leap Forward. He then said that the Chinese peasants did not have weapons during the Great Leap Forward with which to rebel. I said that throughout Chinese history, the Chinese ruling classes never allowed Chinese peasants to have weapons. But that did not prevent Chinese peasants from rebellion with sticks and shovels, again and again.

    In our Chinese language, we have a proverb, “jie gan erqi” (pick up a bamboo stick and rebel), to describe one of the earliest rebellions in the Qin Dynasty. I also told my professor that the Mao era was an exception in Chinese history: under Chairman Mao, the Chinese State did allow the Chinese people, both peasants and workers, to have weapons. During the Great Leap Forward, the Chinese government called upon the Chinese people to organize several hundred divisions of militia.
    Peasants worked in the fields with rifles stacked beside them. This summer I interviewed the former village party secretary of Yakoucun Village in Guangzhou. He told me that during the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution years, his villageʼs militia had more than 200 rifles, machines guns, and even anti-air artilleries. The village militia was trained regularly. The weapons were taken away from the village when Deng Xiaoping started the rural reforms in 1982. It would be much easier for peasants to rebel, if they wanted to, with such easy access to weapons. But there was not even a protest, let alone a rebellion, during the Great Leap Forward.

    –Dongping Han, Hao Qi, Mobo Gao. *Remembering Socialist China, 1949-1976* (Remembering Socialist China, 1949-1976 (http://www.rupe-india.org/59/han.html))

    • Thanks: FB, Vidi
    • Replies: @Craig Nelsen
  383. NPleeze says:
    @utu

    Utu the foolish troll is again foolishly trolling, proving once again that the more things change, the more they remain the same.

    I don’t know where Godfree got the fever news, but Global Times article says they supposedly had malaria, which is strongly associated with a fever, troll.

    The fact that China does not want to publicly accuse the US of attacking it with a bio-weapon is hardly proof that it didn’t happen (or that it did).

    What’s interesting is that the Chinese first identified the virus as a pneumonia. What’s also interesting is that in September 2019 there were a number of “mysterious” “pneumonia” cases the CDC linked to vaping (of course, vaping is a risk factor for COVID-19, and pneumonia is a common infection among COVID-19 patients). I have also heard reports that there were these “pneumonia” outbreaks in many nursing homes on the East Coast around the same time, though the CDC is slow to publish data (if it publishes it at all – talk about lack of transparency).

    The fact is when there is an unknown virus involved, pneumonia is almost always listed as the cause of death. The only way to rule out pneumonia is to do testing on tissue from those deceased last year in the US of “pneumonia”, but we all know in a million years that won’t happen.

    • Replies: @John Chuckman
  384. FB says: • Website
    @Lo

    The only thing ‘burning’ is your hair…and I’m NOT Russian…although I have done a lot of consulting work there in the aerospace industry…much to the benefit of ALL Americans…including retarded dingbats like you, I might add…

  385. Here’s a thread of people sharing anecdotes about suffering c-19 symptoms last year: https://twitter.com/mamaxbea/status/1238869710046777344

    Most sound like the commenters, above, who were sick with it.

  386. Parfois1 says:
    @FB

    …but the virus does seem to spread quickly and effectively…and at least some of those who get it require intensive medical care, which could strain any health system to the breaking point, as is happening in Italy now…

    The “patriots” cannot be convinced by the clarity of raw numbers; they claim the figures are cooked by the Chicoms, etc.

    This reminds me of some comments made by “patriots” who rubbished my comment about the celerity and organizational capacity of China’s planners and builders when they erected the two hospitals for 2,600 patients in Wuhan in about 20 days. “Nothing to write home about”, they said, “They used American technology”, “We can do much better” and so on.

    Now, when in some states they are running out of hospital beds and equipment, I hope the “American technology” comes to the rescue. Pity the patients have to suffer for the boasting of their uncaring leaders – the ugly image of an uncaring ideology.

  387. 22pp22 says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Chinese ex-colleagues would beg to differ. Fellow students who lived in China in the 80s said it was dirt-poor. Many of them contracted poor-country diseases while studying there. Anyway, enough said. Arguing with a fanatic is a waste of breath.

    Since 1951, China has suffered massive self-inflicted famines. Outside the cities, it is still a poor country.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  388. @jalon

    They don’t like war, really, incase there are still idiots rainwashed with the “Chinese aggression to take over the world” type mentality reading this.

    Idiots brainwashed with the “war is the only form of aggression available to those wanting to take over the world” type mentality should know that there are other forms of aggression. If you control the disbursement of information, for example, you control the world, and it’s possible to gain control of the media without recourse to war.

    When Westerners expand, it’s through glorious and sudden war. The Chinese expand through the ruling families over centuries. The West conquers. The East seeps. Between the two, the latter will likely be the last man standing.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  389. @Anonymous

    Your words do capture many Western attitudes towards China.

    Although I believe they apply more to America than “the West.”

    And that’s because America has a severe case of what Putin calls “exceptionalism.”

    Many Americans do believe they are entitled to be first and best simply because they are Americans.

    It’s a seriously bent notion. A kind of mental illness. A kind of brain virus.

    It comes largely from the postwar era of “the American Dream” with America’s extraordinary success in dominating the world economy.

    That stemmed from the fact that America was left intact after WWII and all of its competitors were destroyed.

    Well, all the destroyed nations have come back and new emerging places are also competing.

    The American Dream era is well and truly over.

    Unfortunately a great many Americans do not understand that, and some Americans, the power elites, refuse to accept that.

    So a huge set of hostilities has been unleashed by America against many other states, but especially against China, a country that has done nothing wrong but performs better than America, beats it at its own game, and America’s elites hate it for that.

    One of America’s enduring weaknesses, bred by the golden era of the American Dream, is the belief that they should be best, that they are, in some sense, God’s chosen children.

    Just pure superstitious nonsense, and also a great burden against truly doing better.

    America just ignores its crumbling infrastructure, its poor public education, and many other competitive weaknesses.

    Its too busy thinking it’s best and spending about a trillion dollars a year on a military/security complex that is largely nonproductive.

    The country’s expectations are like those Christian fundamentalists who periodically gather on a hill with outstretched arms waiting for” the Second Coming.”

    Well, it ain’t going to happen. The American Dream is an advertising slogan that’s outlived its usefulness.

    If you can’t invest and work hard, you are only going to keep falling behind.

    • Agree: Parfois1, Iris
  390. @Anonymous

    Thanks for the important perspective.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  391. @TRM

    Less people in the world have Corona than people on this site have neurotically predicted WWIII over the past several years. Hell, at this point we oughta be halfway through WWVII by now, if the Unzians were as brilliant as they posture to be. However, I’m thinking that the Chinese are not too keen on having us unload our silos on their communist asses.

    • Replies: @TRM
  392. @Godfree Roberts

    In 1958, 1959 and 1960, the Americans, the Russians, the British, the Jiang Jieshi regime in Taiwan, the Japanese, and South Koreans were all hostile to China, had spies in China, and listening devices around China to monitor what was going on. But they did not have any evidence to show there was a famine in China at that time.

    This is an example of the low quality of Chinese propaganda–childlike complaints that everybody is against them and absurd claims like foreign spies creeping around the country planting listening devices in the bushes.

    A private student I tutored in English in Beijing–a microbiologist, in fact–would become quite talkative after a couple of beers. He told me stories of his parents during the Great Leap Forward giving him all the milk and eating leaves themselves from the trees in order to stave of starvation. That was in Beijing itself.

    As for industrial output, “[i]n China, backyard furnaces (土法炼钢) were small blast furnaces used by the people of China during the Great Leap Forward (1958–62). These were constructed in the backyards of the communes, to further the Great Leap Forward’s ideology of the rapid industrialization of China.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace

    Also known as The Great Blunder, or The Great Catastrophe, or The Greatest Fuck-up Ever, the Great Leap Forward resulted in millions of deaths by starvation. Even the Chinese now allow Mao was 30 percent wrong, but you undermine your credibility by seeming to refuse even that concession.

  393. Seraphim says:
    @FB

    Somewhere here the “Epoch Times”, the mouthpiece of the notorious Falun Gong was quoted.

    In 2006 it published an alleged speech of “Chi Haotian, China’s Minister of Defence and Vice-Chairman of China’s Central Military Commission, given to his military leadership in which he exposed the “Plans for Conquest & Extermination of North America”. It makes very interesting reading (it talks of ‘lebensraum’, ‘yellow race’, ‘white race’, uses phrases lifted from ‘Hitler’s Table Talk’, which alone would point to the origin of the speech). But the most interesting passage is:

    “We still need America. Therefore, we must do everything we can to promote our relationship with America, learn from America in all aspects and use America as an example to reconstruct our country. …
    Only by using special means to ‘clean up’ America will we be able to lead the Chinese people there. … Only by using non-destructive weapons that can kill many people will we be able to reserve America for ourselves. There has been rapid development of modern biological technology, and new bio weapons have been invented one after another. Of course we have not been idle; in the past years we have seized the opportunity to master weapons of this kind. We are capable of achieving our purpose of ‘ cleaning up’ America all of a sudden. When Comrade Xiaoping was still with us, the Party Central Committee had the perspicacity to make the right decision not to develop aircraft carrier groups and focus instead on developing lethal weapons that can eliminate mass populations of the enemy country. …
    Biological weapons are unprecedented in their ruthlessness, but if the Americans do not die then the Chinese have to die. If the Chinese people are strapped to the present land, a total societal collapse is bound to take place. According to the computation of the author of Yellow Peril, more than half of the Chinese will die, and that figure would be more than 800 million people! Just after the liberation, our yellow land supported nearly 500 million people, while today the official figure of th population is more than 1.3 billion. This yellow land has reached the limit of its capacity. One day, who knows how soon it will come, the great collapse will occur any time and more than half of the population will have to go.
    It is indeed brutal to kill one or two hundred million Americans. But that is the only path that will secure a Chinese century, a century in which the CCP leads the world. We, as revolutionary humanitarians, do not want deaths. But if history confronts us with a choice between deaths of Chinese and those of Americans, we’d have to pick the latter, as, for us, it is more important to safeguard the lives of the Chinese people and the life of our Party. … The last problem I want to talk about is of firmly seizing the preparations for military battle. … The central committee believes, as long as we resolve the United States problem at one blow, our domestic problems will all be readily solved. Therefore, our military battle preparation appears to aim at Taiwan, but in fact is aimed at the United States, and the preparation is far beyond the scope of attacking aircraft carriers or satellites. Marxism pointed out that violence is the midwife for the birth of the new society. Therefore war is the midwife for the birth of China’s century”.

    China’s Century? Sounds like the ‘New American Century’ of PNAC-1996. In 2000 PNAC released “Rebuilding America’s Defenses”, a report that promotes “the belief that America should seek to preserve and extend its position of global leadership by maintaining the preeminence of U.S. military forces.” The report also states, more importantly, that “advanced forms of biological warfare that can “target” specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool.”
    Wiki gives some more clues:
    “In 2012, ‘The Atlantic’ wrote that a specific virus that targets individuals with a specific DNA sequence is within possibility in the near future. The magazine put forward a hypothetical scenario of a virus which caused mild flu to the general population but deadly symptoms to the President of the United States. They cite advances in personalized gene therapy as evidence.
    In 2016, Foreign Policy magazine suggested the possibility of a virus used as an ethnic bioweapon that could sterilize a “genetically-related ethnic population”.

    Are these the sources of Bill Gates’ ‘prophetic’ revelations? And of the mantra ‘China did it’?

    • Thanks: Parfois1
  394. Parfois1 says:
    @FB

    Thanks FB for your review of the Nature’s article. Besides your remarks about the reliability of computer modelling without verifiable experimental confirmation, it appears to me that there is a contradiction between, quote :

    “… in computer simulations, the mutations in SARS-CoV-2 don’t seem to work very well at helping the virus bind to human cells…”

    and the field reports indicating the CV-19 has an exceptionally good adherence to human cells, hence the extreme virulence of this epidemic. Is Nature reporting on the correct version of Coronavirus?

    Your informative opinion is appreciated.

    • Replies: @FB
  395. @Anonymous

    It is normal for us to DENY all those good things to all other cultures and races. Many in the West feel that other races have no right to learn from us, and have no right to have what we have.

    And yet, only the West has made–and continues to make–massive efforts to PROVIDE all those good things–exactly opposite to what you claim.

    When I was an English teacher in Shanxi Province, one of my students took me to his hometown of Datong. He showed me the Agricultural University there built by American missionaries. He also showed me the spot where the Chinese executed those missionaries and their children during the Boxer Rebellion. Today, both my former student and his wife are professors there.

    Your West-so-bad ignorance stinks. You shit on the graves of those Americans and their horrific deaths (they were hacked to death by mobs using farm implements–ALONG WITH THEIR CHILDREN). You lack insight and understanding.

    • Replies: @Chinaman
    , @Anonymous
  396. @Truth3

    Well Ron Unz knows who you are so why not send the evidence to him so he can reassure us about the truth of what you have written. Even if you were to ask for confirmation from those who cared for you in hospital and got one of them, using his own name and contact address/number to write that you (unnamed) had the experience that you describe that would be very valuable to those of us concerned to read the truth on UR.

    • Agree: Commentator Mike
    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    , @Truth3
  397. Parfois1 says:
    @Olivier1973

    Thank you for your reporting about Event201. I’m trying to figure out a connection between Event201 and the almost simultaneous outbreak of CV-19 plus the Military Games. I assume it is an interesting angle to look into considering the regular coexistence between training exercises and false flag events.

    • Replies: @Olivier1973
  398. Parfois1 says:
    @Herald

    And so this is your first comment on UR….hmmm. Looks very much like you’ve been pressed ganged into taking on the role of a lowly gatekeeper.

    Team B has been called to action!

  399. @22pp22

    You and I know many expat Chinese who can tell you how they grew up poor in America.

    They did their homework under the shop counter while their parents put in 80 hour weeks and walked miles to find bargain so that they could pay off the loan from earlier emigrants in 9 years instead of 15.

    They chose the area to open the restaurant because it had good, free schools and and the kids wore hand-me-down uniforms.

    Now one of the kids is a partner in a Big Five accounting firm in HK and the other works in Intel’s chip design division.

    Were they poor?

    Was China?

  400. @onebornfree

    One born (NOT) free, you are an Israeli Troll!

    • Replies: @onebornfree
  401. @Craig Nelsen

    Nonsense.

    There was a famine and its effects were just like the effects we’re currently experiencing from Covid-19: premature deaths amongst people over 60–at a time when life expectancy was 58.

    But nobody starved to death.

    The man who started the ’60 million deaths’ nonsense was a) insane, b) a liar, and c) paid $2 million for his troubles. One example of a+b:

    Remember the front cover of his book?

    Well, a reader[1] asked why the book’s heart-wrenching cover image was taken twenty years before the Great Leap?

    Dikotter’s answer? “I could find no photographs of a Great Leap famine.”

    I’ve written a fairly detailed analysis of the scam here: https://www.unz.com/article/mao-reconsidered-part-two-whose-famine/

    [1] The Socialist Legacy Underlies the Rise of Today’s China in the World– by Dongping Han. Remembering Socialist China, 1949-1976. Aspects of India’s Economy Nos. 59-60 (Oct. 2014):

  402. Tor597 says:
    @johnm33

    India has poor air quality, so do a bunch of other nations that have not been hit near as hard.

    Greece smokes a lot, why haven’t they been hit as hard?

    Iranian vets exposed to nerve gas? Lol. Now you are just grasping at straws.

  403. Tor597 says:
    @jsinton

    Lol. You are quoting the Epoch times?

    Nice CIA propaganda there.

  404. @Half-Jap

    ” As to the future, your model is as good as mine ”

    That is correct, IMO. Mr. Unz’s appeal to authority might be more convincing if another authority was chosen. Like you, I’m rather thirsty for actual data. What is being presented by official sources doesn’t fit my definition of data. The controlled news media remains collectively on the same page, just as they have been in regards to every other crisis in recent memory.

    A saying in the southern US goes, “When everybody’s telling the same story, it’s bound to be a lie”.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  405. @obwandiyag

    Once in a while, you boil over and post a rant that reveals what you are. Thanks for the reminder. It gives newer participants an insight into your extreme ideology and provides them with some context by which to judge your usual nasty little one-liners.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  406. @Amanda

    It’s pretty obvious that the declaration of a pandemic with no proof presented is a misdirection. If you can get the mark to watch the shells being moved around, he’ll never notice that there is no pea under any of them.

    • Replies: @Amanda
  407. Chinaman says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Thank you. I think this piece of history would have been buried in the historical footnote of that period if you didn’t dig it out. It is a shameful and uncivilised act of violence.

    I think it sits well in contrast to the racist attacks on Chinese coolies in California during the gold rush. I wonder how many died due to racial violence which were never acknowledged. The Chinese exclusion act were unique in history for its blatant racism.

    I also regret that these barbaric Chinese have hacked these WHITE CHILDERN to deaths using farm implements, I guess it can only be surpassed by the depraved acts and senseless of killing grandmothers and BABIES using M-16s and bayonets by professional soldiers in My Lai, Vietnam. I didn’t need to dust off the annuals of history to dig this one out. It is called the MY LAI MASSACRE in 1968.

    One of my pet reeve when people talk about good things Americans have brought to the world. Anyway, It is ironic that there are people on both side who is clamouring to go to the other country only to get slaughtered. Watch out, buddy. Your student might have been trying to warn you.

    I have to admit I lack the insight and understanding of the motivation and drive of Americans, yourself included, to go to a undeveloped foreign country to “provide the good things”. ( we will leave the bad things aside first) Is it the messianic complex ? Or does it satisfy the some deep seated superiority complex ( as the other commenter alluded to) to have helped bring civilisation to an uncultured people. I am genuinely interested and trying to suss out whether these Americans are doing this to feel better and sanctimonious about themselves or how much or it is really for the good of these inferior people. I guess the truth is always somewhere in the middle. Love your input on this.

    Have it appeared to the do-gooders that may be the natives don’t need their help and don’t want to be Christians ? As this coronavirus crisis have shown, China don’t need anyone’s help and it is the other way around.

    P.s. Apologies for my English, I am a bit apprehensive since you are an English teacher. I am sure you can write Chinese or speak mandarin better than I could write English given your experience.

    • Replies: @Craig Nelsen
  408. antibeast says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Also known as The Great Blunder, or The Great Catastrophe, or The Greatest Fuck-up Ever, the Great Leap Forward resulted in millions of deaths by starvation. Even the Chinese now allow Mao was 30 percent wrong, but you undermine your credibility by seeming to refuse even that concession.

    I am not defending Mao here but it is to his credit that China’s population and life expectancy doubled during his rule even taking into account the disaster of the GLF. But the USA is relentless in discrediting Socialism to the point that all that Yankee Propaganda does is to demonize the Maoist Era using the GLF. Methinks what Godfree is doing is to counter that anti-Socialist propaganda with a pro-Socialist version of the GLF.

    By the way, Mao didn’t invent agricultural collectivization which came from the Soviet Union. And Mao was deposed as President of China in 1960, just two years after the GLF started in 1958.

    Lastly, China was a famine-prone country for most of its history due to its reliance on agriculture which is dependent on rainfall and irrigation from inland rivers. The Chinese Communists solved that problem which all prior Chinese rulers failed to do.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
    • Replies: @Craig Nelsen
  409. Parfois1 says:
    @redmudhooch

    I also have a real bad feeling about this! Not just the virus, but the new Patriot Acts, corporate welfare, handing more control of “our” govt over to Wall St fascists, the austerity that will inevitably come later. Not good!

    I have read three articles already pointing out what the strategy is: to get Congress to approve special legislation for a Federal Reserve-Treasury private-public partnership whereby the Fed will administer the trillions for the corporations but guaranteed by the Treasury, that is, the taxpayers. If it goes through it will be a massive transfer of wealth to the wealthy.

    Apologise for not having links at hand.

    • Agree: 9/11 Inside job
  410. @Donald A Thomson

    What is “exploding” is a new awareness of something which was unconscious. This happened in “underdeveloped” countries that suddenly discovered a “new disease” brought in by “foreigners.” But the “new disease” was really an “old disease.” What was new about it was the revelation by the foreigners that it was caused by “microscopic organisms.” The “new disease “that had “never existed before the foreigners came” was an old disease of whose real nature they were ignorant.

    Of course this new disease, Covid is not that old, it escaped into the world out of a bio-warfare lab in Maryland in July, 2019. It took the Chinese and the Italians to inform us of what the CDC did not want to admit to its own people. Dig a pit for someone else and you will fall into it yourselves, the Book of Ancient Proverbs tells us.

    But millions have already had it since July 2019. Some of us are just discovering that. Will the discovery tell us something else about ourselves that we did not want to know?

  411. @FB

    …their idiotic premise is that the Chinese built this virus in the Wuhan lab and it got out through ‘incompetence’…

    Neither you nor anyone else has debunked this plausible conclusion, which is based on documented premises, such as the type of research that was being conducted at that lab, and prior accidents that had occurred there. The blog you referred to has plenty of specific links to support their basic narrative.

    Many commentators here have preferred to simply ignore this most likely conclusion, regarding what happened. Abandoning objectivity, they have instead concocted various unlikely conjectures, containing concatenations of contrived premises, that were at least consistent with their political biases or fantasies.

    In other threads at this site about this topic I had alluded to Prof. Boyle, the bio-weapons expert who blew the whistle on the 2001 anthrax attacks intended to break congressional resistance to the PATRIOT Act.

    Here is a link that summarizes his recent comments pertaining to the Wuhan coronavirus:

    https://www.leanmachine.net.au/healthblog/bioweapons-expert-coronavirus/

    Three days ago I cited two telling quotes, from a researcher at the Wuhan lab, appearing in a recent Scientific American article, which featured her as a “Bat Woman”, both of which underscored the plausibility of an accidental release at that lab.

    https://www.unz.com/article/how-covid-19-will-test-the-west/#comment-3787652

    Since it’s impossible to credibly refute knowledgeable insiders who reveal or suggest the truth, people like you preferred to just make up their own stories because perception or delusion seems more important than reality.

    • Agree: Bombercommand
  412. antibeast says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Dikotter is a paid hack. He wrote a book entitled “The Age of Openness: China before Mao” praising Republican China under the KMT gangster-Capitalists. This is the same guy who wrote “Mao’s Great Famine” and claimed that Mao’s GLF caused the famine. Before Mao, China didn’t need a famine because so many Chinese were dying of Opium-addiction, courtesy of the British Opium-traders.

    • Thanks: Godfree Roberts
  413. Parfois1 says:
    @Anonymous

    So we have become used to being on top, and also we are used to having ALL the good things in life like power, wealth, military force, technology ONLY for ourselves, and NONE for non-westerners.

    When I came to that para. I stopped reading and rushed to the reply button to lambast you about arrogating to yourself the title of a spokesperson for the “West” by using “We”. What saved you from a verbal lashing was my seeing FB’s agree and my going back to restore my cognitive balance.

    Almost fooled me. Might be advisable to give some clues beforehand about and impending satire.

  414. Prajna says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    Giving up identity is never a good idea, all you end up being is a pathetic, puke-worthy imitation of the thing you are trying to be, and the people you admire so much will forever recoil in disgust at you, because you try so hard to be something impossible for you.

    Quoted for its exquisite irony. Anon, yes really, riles against giving up identity and confusedly thinks identity is something you can assume by trying. Anon, what happens if you stop trying? Maybe it’s a little like cogito ergo sum: all very well but stop thinking and ‘poof’, cease to be.

  415. onebornfree says: • Website
    @obwandiyag

    “Yes, the free market will solve the coronavirus crisis. Using it’s wonderful invisible hand.”

    Nah, the mailed fist of government will “solve” the coronavirus “crisis” , ‘cos government “solutions”[ie the mailed fist ] really work out here in the real world. Right, slave-boy?

    Mo’ gubmint, mo’ gubmint mo’ gubmint! 🤣

    You’ll no doubt be pleased to know that you and your like”minded” fellow dumbass buddies here and elsewhere, absolutely, positively, make me sick. 🤮 Please, fuck off to China, pronto!Or if you can’t make it there New York City, or California right now would at least be a step in the right direction .

    No regards, onebornfree

    • Replies: @Biff
  416. @Lo

    So when Jewish trolls talk among themselves all they have to say is what kind of morons Russians and Chinese are?

    • LOL: Iris
  417. KA says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    US would be very happy if it could infect any opponent and never get detected . But this episode can’t be explained as an American military borne germ warfare that landed on China and initiated an epidemic.

    We have to explain the absence of the infection in the American military ,absence of any clusters of infection in the US around that time or later until it appeared in Seattle.

    We would have had many more infection and many more deaths by this time . Essentially it should have paralleled Chinese scenario.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  418. KA says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Neither China nor USA will ever provide any correct information even if the bioengineering of the virus and escape from labs were found to be correct or stealing from US laB were found to be choreographed by USA.

    It is like 911 . After playing some kind of junior roles ,Saudis, American and to some extent Pakistan realize that they had been used like piece of condoms for the gratification of Israel raping the rest of the humanity. Trying to expose Israel will hurt many who occupy powerful positions and embarrass the nations with unknown consequences.
    May be one day but we are not there yet.

  419. @Oregon Farmer

    A pathetic and dishonest attempt to shift blame. As if you have not done enough damage to yourself already.

  420. Amanda says:
    @Twodees Partain

    Yes, we are being played for fools. While everyone is being distracted by this virus psyop, the central bankers are buying up the world, setting us up for hyperinflation, and ushering in their new digital financial system, and perhaps Agenda ID2020 is on the way!

    More here:

    Digital Dollar A-Coming: Draft Bills Mention New US Central Bank Digital Currency

    https://thefreedomarticles.com/digital-dollar-us-bills-mention-central-bank-digital-currency/?owa_medium=feed&owa_sid=

    The Digital Dollar is no longer just a concept that alternative reporters and conspiracy researchers have been warning about. It has taken a big step to becoming a reality. This is just more proof that the coronavirus crisis is being exploited to push forward all sorts of NWO (New World Order) agendas that have been waiting in the wings for the right moment to be rolled out. The US Congress floated a stimulus bill on Sunday March 22nd 2020 that specifically mentions the term digital dollar in reference to a new currency the USG wants launched.

    This new currency has been planned for a long time; recently, it has been referred to as a CBDC (Central Bank Digital Currency). Although the provision for a digital dollar has been removed from the bill, the rulers have shown there hand. Is this another step to the elimination of cash and to a One World Currency where every single financial transaction will recorded and monitored?

    Wake up!! We are sheep being led to slaughter!!

  421. Parfois1 says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    “…stave of starvation.”

    Normally I would attribute the above to carelessness or typo and would not make a fuss about it. However, when it comes to an “English teacher”, I make an exception because an English teacher would not make that type of error. An English teacher would know that “of” and “off” are almost antonymous and would make sure that his student (especially a non-native English speaker) became aware of that fundamental difference between the prepositional “of” and the, mostly, adverbial “off”. Consequently, you are open to the accusation of lying about being a teacher and once that is attached to someone, what else he says associated with the lie is also contaminated with the lie.

    • Replies: @Bookish1
  422. Escher says:

    ”Doubtless for sound bureaucratic reasons, Wuhan officials delayed notifying Beijing for a few weeks”

    Mr. Roberts, congratulations. WeChat payments from your Beijing handlers have restarted.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  423. @BlackDragon

    “One born (NOT) free, you are an Israeli Troll!”

    Au contraire, mon frere. Phuck Israel [and all other states] , and phuck you too, moron. Enjoy your daily increasing slavery!

    “Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.”
    George Carlin

    “On most people the strain of being an independent adult weights heavily.”  The State provides a way of eliminating “the psychic burden of adulthood.”— Randolph Bourne,

    No regards, onebornfree

  424. Anonymous[545] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    I think that the guy you’re responding to is a Jew pretending to be someone else.

    White nationalists are overwhelmingly either neutral or friendly towards East Asians.

  425. Anonymous[545] • Disclaimer says:
    @vot tak

    The cables emphasize a series of talking points which argue that Beijing implemented a “cover-up,” hid the existence of the disease from the world, failed to warn other countries and that they rejected America’s assistance, all because the Communist Party “cared more about its reputation than people’s suffering.”

    They should probably contact Zero Hedge for a much more comprehensive list. That rag has been posting at least five obvious anti-China, COVID-19 propaganda articles every single day for months. As far as this topic goes, their coverage is 100% garbage.

    • Agree: refl
    • Replies: @vot tak
  426. Parfois1 says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    The man who started the ’60 million deaths’ nonsense was a) insane, b) a liar, and c) paid $2 million for his troubles.

    Looks like the “60 million” was the going rate of the time to vilify Communism. Robert Conquest (working for the propaganda arm of the British Secret Service, did not know Russian and never been to the USSR ) came up also with 60 million in “The Great Terror”, the same figure repeated again by Solzhenitsyn. This caused a bit of a problem because, meanwhile, when Conquest published the second edition at the instance of the publisher to revise the figures to be more reasonable, he reduced the 60 million to 20 million and the unfortunate Solzhenitsyn was forced to carry the 60 million burden alone until the “Epoch Times” recently decided to round the total to 100 million!

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Craig Nelsen
  427. Biff says:
    @onebornfree

    You’ll no doubt be pleased to know that you and your like”minded” fellow dumbass buddies here and elsewhere, absolutely, positively, make me sick. 🤮 Please, fuck off to China, pronto!Or if you can’t make it there New York City, or California right now would at least be a step in the right direction .

    In times of crisis, the insane are the first to crack…..

  428. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    The West conquers. The East seeps.

    That’s an interesting analogy, and echoes something I heard in China a while back. I had struck up a conversation with this Chinese history buff.

    We got to talking about American history, and he made this observation:

    “The natives were no match for the power of Western arms, but that would have meant nothing in the end. What destroyed the natives and gave birth to your country was the endless waves of people who made the land their own.

    You were like an ocean, coming in slowly but steadily. The natives were too few, and had too few descendants.”

    Did he have a point?

    • Replies: @Bookish1
  429. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @John Chuckman

    Thanks for the important perspective.

    And thank you as well, for expounding on that perspective.

    “Chosen Exceptionalism” (to paraphrase) is a COLOSSAL psychological hindrance to be overcome, before America can heal.

    In the meantime, the country’s elite will lash out in desperation, like a rabid, berserk beast. Horrendous stuff.

  430. Anon[124] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu

    Thank you kindly for the reference.

    For me it is so obvious that people move in little groups that it makes no sense that public policy or business success should be analysed as a “national interest” or a “business model” problem. At least not exclusively. In Mexico they say “it is not the know-how, but the know-who.” Trust is based on personal relationships, and that is needed to take risks, business or political. Not everything is compromat. My guess is that very little going on is essentially coerced.

    Why do people conceal their networks.. that is another question. For example, take the YPO. (Young Presidents Organization). Quite in vogue in the US and other countries. A network of under 50 CEOs that support each other, very above-board and status-symbolish. But there’s a devil in the details:
    – a group (forum) of 8 people is organized. The membership cannot be changed unless one dies. They meet once a month, if you miss two sessions, you are booted. The wives get their parallel 8 wives forum, also for life. They do a couples dinner and a sophisticated trip once a year at least. In the sessions, you end up doing a confessional: drugs, affairs, suicide in the family, business woes, etc. The other group members opine. However, they CANNOT publicly socialize except weddings and funerals. They are not supposed to do business with their forum confreres, but money can be lent. They don’t really know the composition of other forums. Naturally nice conferences are held for YPO members to do some mingling. It’s supposed to be under 50, but when you get past that, it’s YPO Gold, so you keep doing the monthly confessional.

    Does it sound like a great social control scheme? A way to form elite bien pensants? People like mystery and a little edge. Whether they’re dupes or successes, only History will tell. Perhaps.

    • Replies: @Parfois1
  431. Half-Jap says:
    @Twodees Partain

    Fantastic saying! Will try to remember and use it when apropo! Many thanks

  432. Half-Jap says:
    @d dan

    A so-called war criminal, who only wanted peace, once said that the future lies in an alliance between China, Japan, and Russia, if we were ever to counter the empires of the West. Oh, so true it was and still today. Sun Yat Sen was supported by so-called war criminals. So many that loved and believed in China were out of power by the time of Konoe Fumimaro, who I blame most for the calamity. But we can still rebuild and move forward.
    Japan probably needs China and Russia more than the US now in many ways.

  433. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    And yet, only the West has made–and continues to make–massive efforts to PROVIDE all those good things–exactly opposite to what you claim.

    My honest observation of how the West genuinely gives, and under what circumstances, is this:

    Yes, we do wholeheartedly hand out charity and aid to the world’s very, very poorest. That part cannot be faulted, and is in fact laudable.

    But notice, we help just enough, meaning we are generous only to the extent (and we are obligated to do no more, I would argue) to keep cultures lying flat on their backs, from outright staying there on the ground.

    My analogy is that elites in the West are ready to assist other cultures to lay one very weak hand on the ladder of ascent and progress, but God forbid those foreigners then strengthen their own hands, legs and bodies to start climbing that ladder for themselves! How dare they make any progress beyond what we allow them, the ungrateful wretches!

    Our elites say to them “Up to here you shall rise, and not a millimeter more” – as if it were up to us. Very arrogant. You might say our generosity, while real, is predicated on those we help never learning or growing to any extent. We like them weak, and needy.

    Our elites VERY LOUDLY trumpet the quiet and heartfelt generosity of some of our citizens (like the missionaries in your example), but are then discomfited by any further progress and advance that those we helped, make on their own.

    How often are we bombarded by phrases “The West made Russia strong”, “Japan only learned from us; without us they’d be nothing” and “We made China, all they had was cheap ant-like labor”.

    ANY significant progress another culture makes is reason enough to hamstring, hinder, cripple or even destroy “those upstarts”.

    The telling case is Japan. I was just old enough to witness the Japan “scare” back in the the day. Japan, an ally, a nation with a tiny military, demonized and accused of waging “business as war”. It’s main offense? Playing the same game as the West, and doing it well.

    In all three cases, those of Russia, Japan, and China, the very development and advance of these cultures revealed our assumption of our own uniqueness, coupled with anxiety over our status.

    The West does not like other cultures closing the gap with us, not even a little.

    We dig wells and give medicines to Africa, then we look askance when someone (a certain very populous country in Asia comes to mind) else comes in to build railways, roads, ports, technical colleges, STEM universities, malls, business centers, power plants, and factories.

    [sarc] Oh no, Africans don’t deserve THOSE good things, surely? They’re really happiest in their little quaint villages. Those are neo-colonialist projects![sarc]

    ALL good things EXCLUSIVELY for the West, NOTHING beyond a pittance, for The Rest.

    • Agree: John Chuckman
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Craig Nelsen
  434. @Wizard of Oz

    If Truth3 really thinks he had Covid-19 then he should report this to the medical authorities so they can trace everyone he was in contact with at Fort Bragg. Isn’t this the responsible things to do? I won’t say “instead of reporting it to us on UR”, as he is free to do that too, as long as he did the former. But this is the internet so anyone can claim anything.

  435. Truth3 says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    You ass.

    I did not go to hospital, for a damn good reason.

    I have an immune disorder that can kill me if I get a superbug. So I don’t go to hospitals.

    Because of this, I know more about the immune system than probably any 5 PhD candidates in Virology & Immunology you care to name. Why? Because I studied this my entire life.

    If I am wrong, it might cost me my life.

    So go fuck yourself.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  436. Robjil says:
    @Been_there_done_that

    Every Purim, I wonder what ZUS will do.

    This year Purim was March 9-11.

    [MORE]

    https://www.chabad.org/holidays/purim/article_cdo/aid/1362/jewish/Purim-How-To-Guide.htm

    Purim celebrated on the 14th of Adar, is the most fun-filled, action-packed day of the Jewish year. It commemorates our nation’s miraculous salvation more than two millennia ago. Purim 2020 begins Monday night, March 9 and continues through Tuesday, March 10, (March 11 in Jerusalem).

    New Rochelle, near NYC, declared a containment area on March 10 – Purim day.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/10/814099444/new-york-creates-containment-area-around-cluster-in-new-rochelle

    Coronavirus: New York Creates ‘Containment Area’ Around Cluster In New Rochelle
    March 10, 20202:17 PM ET

    March 11, the WHO declares Coronavirus a pandemic. March 11 is Jerusalem (walled city) Purim.

    https://www.who.int/dg/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing-on-covid-19—11-march-2020

    We have therefore made the assessment that COVID-19 can be characterized as a pandemic. 
    Pandemic is not a word to use lightly or carelessly. It is a word that, if misused, can cause unreasonable fear, or unjustified acceptance that the fight is over, leading to unnecessary suffering and death.

    Lockdown in Italy started on March 11.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

    “We expect to see the first effects of the stringent lockdown measures adopted on March 11 after 2-3 weeks, so the coming week will be absolutely crucial in this sense: we expect to finally see a  sign of trend reversal,” said Franco Locatelli, President of the Health Council [source]

    Senate uses March 11 as the marker date to get China as being “bad”.

    https://www.hawley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/Hawley-China-Coronavirus-Resolution.pdf

    (4) calls for an international investigation led by public health officials from the United States and other affected nations to determine how the handling by the Government of the People’s Republic of China of the COVID–19 outbreak prior to March 11, 2020, contributed to the emergence of the COVID–19 global pandemic; and

    Trump stops travel to the US for Europeans.

    https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-outbreak-03-11-20-intl-hnk/index.html

    11:46 p.m. ET, March 11, 2020
    European officials say they were blindsided by Trump’s new travel restrictions

    Well, this is the worst Purim gift in the recent history.

    All Nethie got for Purim last year was Golan Heights.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-leaders-gush-over-trumps-golan-statement-a-purim-miracle/

    We’re celebrating Purim, when 2,500 years ago, other Persians, led by Haman, tried to destroy the Jewish people. They failed then; and today, 2,500 years later, again Persians led by Khamenei, are trying to destroy the Jewish people and the Jewish state. They’re going to fail again,” Netanyahu said.

    Pompeo praised Trump as well, and added: “The people of Israel should know that the battles they fought and the lives they lost on that very ground [the Golan] were important and worthy.” Israel captured the Heights from Syria in the 1967 war.

  437. anon[837] • Disclaimer says:

    What do people here make of the new bill passed by Congress that promises $1200 for each American?

    • Replies: @anon
  438. @NPleeze

    I certainly was among the suspicious concerning a bio-weapon.

    The quality and attitudes of America’s leadership today make that not unthinkable at all, which is part of the reason so many have written articles suggesting the possibility, or even likelihood.

    While still ready to accept any facts that emerge, I am beginning to think otherwise.

    First, Italian doctors last year appear to have discovered the same thing as the Chinese, an unusual cluster of pneumonia cases.

    They are beginning to think they were actually the coronavirus.

    Two, a number of serious experts have suggested we have all of our numbers wrong.

    The infection, it is suggested, rolled through European and American populations a while back.

    But because, for most people, the infection is so mild, even free of symptoms, all numbers on the total infections everywhere are likely wildly off on the low side.

    Of course, if that’s the case, the death rate for this thing is actually extremely low and does not warrant extreme measures, and our political leaders have acted on the basis of terrible data.

    I don’t know. It all represents quite a nightmare.

    And I can’t help remembering, watching the US reactions to all the events, “How the Mighty have fallen.”

    Of course, it didn’t help that this disease was discovered in China, the target of immense hostilities and resentments in America.

    The President of the US and, especially, his Secretary of State, have made the most shameful statements. Just beyond common decency.

    But where’s the decency left in a country that severely sanctions the innocent populations of Venezuela and Iran? That attends to killing people in a half dozen other places? And that supports genuinely bloody tyrants in a number of countries?

    There is no pity and no soul which appear to remain.

    • Agree: Parfois1
    • Replies: @NPleeze
  439. Iris says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Your comment fuels my suspicions

    Things are becoming more suspicious by the hour.

    It must be noted that the extraordinary claim made in the Financial Times that the UK population might have already developed “herd immunity” presents a timing element which tallies up with the forecast calculated by the leading Imperial College epidemiological study, on which the UK’s response policy was based.

    https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

    This study predicted that in absence of any mitigating measures, the SARS-CoV-2 virus would infect 81% of the UK population over the course of 3 months, so the timing of this announcement matches the outbreak of the pandemic late Dec. in Wuhan.

    Now, the next extremely suspicious information of the day is that the UK government would have already bought as much as 3.5 million antibody test kits, from a source they refuse to reveal.

    For clarity, an antibody test kit is not used to detect the infection, but to prove a posteriori that the individual has already been infected and has successfully developed antibodies and overcome the illness.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8150449/UK-Government-wont-reveal-new-antibody-tests-rolled-out.html

    Now, this is simply extraordinary.
    NATO poodle Boris Johnson, who is lagging behind other European countries for his Covid-19 response and is being heavily criticised for the very low testing level in the UK, is now confidently rushing to use the country’ s means, time and effort into an avenue proving that health measures are NOT necessary.

    Is PM Boris Johnson talking to a NATO-enlightened crystal ball?

    Or is the pandemic a carefully planned biowarfare global operation, where several different strains of viruses with varying lethality have been used, depending on the country?

    • Replies: @Parfois1
  440. Poco says:
    @Chinaman

    You shouldn’t mind being ruled by the Japanese then.

  441. anastasia says:

    Corona, Corona

    Ray Peterson

    [MORE]

    I love Corona, tell the world I do
    I love Corona, tell the world I do
    I pray every night
    She’ll give me a trillion too

    Corona, Corona
    Corona, Corona
    Corona, Corona (ah oo)
    I love you so

    Oh, little virus, waiting, when are you coming
    Oh, little virus, waiting, when are you coming

    I ain’t had no job since you been gone

    Corona, Corona
    Corona, Corona
    Corona, Corona (ah oo)
    I love you so

    I left Corona way across the sea, oh, me
    I left Corona way across the sea
    And if you see Corona, send her back to Wuhan for me

    Corona, Corona
    Corona, Corona
    Corona, Corona (ah oo)
    I love you so

    Corona, Corona
    Corona, Corona
    Corona, Corona (ah oo)
    I love you so

    Oh, bring me a trillion before you go

    I love you so

  442. @Truth3

    #119

    When I was able to move, Clinic said I did NOT have pneumonia… made no sense at the time.

    So the Clinic kept a record.

    • Replies: @Truth3
  443. FB says: • Website
    @Parfois1

    Parf, the Nature paper is indeed talking about THE coronavirus SARS COV2…

    They are arguing, quite ridiculously, that the virus is not manmade because the COV mechanism for binding to human cells does the opposite in computer simulations to what it does in real life…ie the computer models are so bad that they predict that the COV architecture would be BAD at binding, where in actuality it is very effective…

    As I said, the fact that the computer models are bad is not surprising…these models operate on the GIGO principle…garbage in, garbage out…

    Everybody knows this, which is why computer models are NOT a substitute for experiment…so the idea that just because the models give a surprising result, opposite to what we see in real life, does not mean anything…it is preposterous…

    Biology is a lot more complex than say mechanics, which is the study of physical bodies in motion, where things are fairly easy to reduce to fairly straightforward math…but even in say modeling the flow of air over an airplane wing, the computer models are only ever APPROXIMATIONS…with certain assumptions and SIMPLIFICATIONS that do not exist in real life…

    Every single such computer model MUST be validated by experiment before you can use it for even simple things…so in aerodynamics the use of computer models is simply complementary…it is NOT a substitute for experiment [wind tunnels, flight testing]…it is not even a substitute for analysis, which is the classical method of working out basic physics by way of math [ie pencil and paper]…

    Some of the most complex engineering has been done completely without any kind of computer modeling…including the Apollo moon program, the Concorde supersonic aircraft just to name a couple…the math for these was done using nothing more than slide rules, generally…

    Computer models are often more harmful than they are useful, depending on the individual using them…in the wrong hands, these tools are nothing but a joke…

    Biology is not my bailiwick, but I would think that due to its even greater complexity and relatively immature status compared to more established physical sciences, these rules about relying on goofy models would be even more cautious…

    So it is completely ridiculous to say what these propagandists are saying…yes, all things considered the conclusion in that nature paper that because models predict the corona architecture to be bad, and therefore not something that scientists would pursue is a total sham…

    • Replies: @Iris
  444. dave.x says:

    Coronavirus could already have infected HALF the British population and been spreading in the UK since JANUARY, Oxford University study claims

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8148529/Coronavirus-infected-half-British-population-say-Oxford-University-experts.html

  445. dave.x says:

    Italian expert: special pneumonia symptoms exist in October in Italy

  446. dave.x says:

    Do you remember what had happened to the more than a few American tourists who suddenly collapsed and mysteriously died in the Dominican Republic? Remember they thought the tourists were being poisoned. They had respiratory failure and their lungs were filled with fluid! Guess what?! That is also the cause of death of the Coronavirus!
    We are dealing here with a bio-terrorist!
    See the following article about the mysterious American deaths in the Dominican Republic:
    https://nypost.com/2019/07/24/inside-the-reports-of-deaths-sickness-that-have-consumed-dominican-republic/

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/18/us/dominican-republic-deaths-natural-causes/index.html

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  447. Anonymous[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @DaveE

    This sounds interesting. Would you be able to flesh out the details a bit more?

  448. Anonymous[412] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    You’re stuffing all kinds of oranges, apples and other edibles in too few buckets.

    Western elites and Western people are crack cocaine vs. apples.

    High IQ countries like China, Russia, Japan and low IQ countries in Africa or ME are oranges vs. potatoes.

  449. Iris says:
    @FB

    …so in aerodynamics the use of computer models is simply complementary…it is NOT a substitute for experiment [wind tunnels, flight testing]…

    All correct FB, just a quibble: Fluid Dynamics, of which Aerodynamics is a branch, is THE exception in classical Physics where, otherwise, results can be forecast by governing Laws. Because Fluid processes involve too many parameters, they have to be modelised/approximated by mathematical models (Analyse dimensionelle) and by experimentation.

    • Replies: @FB
  450. @utu

    If the Chinese over-reacted, it is also true that Fauci did not over-react. In fact, he was inert. It only multiplies exponentially if you test. Out of sight, out of mind. Fauci: “Me know nothing.”

  451. Truth3 says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Keep trying asshole.

    You want my medical records? The price is $150 million… cash.

    Fuck off and die a miserable death asshole.

  452. S says:
    @Amanda

    ..justification for deliberate destruction of the economy (economic warfare):

    We should probably then expect to start hearing the term ‘Fall of Capitalism’ in time in relation to this, just as thirty years ago we were hearing the term ‘Fall of Communism’.

    I submit both of these economic collapses have been engineered from the top down as part of a manufactured Hegelian Dialectic. The apparent objective would seem to be the synthesis of Capitalism and Communism and the establishment of a global ‘Multi-Cultural’ super-state/empire.

  453. FB says: • Website
    @Parfois1

    Parf…these laughable fascist propaganda tropes are believed only by the Pavlovian numbskulls as seen on this thread…they do not realize that the indoctrination they have been programmed with by the ruling elite is designed only to control them and make them good little slaves to the rich and powerful that run our system…

    Btw…in case you missed Godfree’s excellent response to this ‘Craig Nelson’ liar [English teacher my ass]…the full text by Dongping Han is here…

    The Socialist Legacy Underlies the Rise of Today’s China in the World

    The author is a professor in North Carolina…he has also written an amazing book…

    The Unknown Cultural Revolution: Life and Change in a Chinese Village

    I will not even get into the bullshit from the likes of Conquest and Solzhenytsin…complete fantasy…

    The simple truth about socialism in both China and Russia is that the so-called famines and mass killings never happened…in fact things would have been far worse had not the people had the benefit of the socialist protections…this spirit of helping your neighbors was always imbued in socialism…

    The propaganda narrative here in the west is simply the inversion of reality…in fact it was in the west that the biggest famines occurred in the 1930s…as written about by John Steinbeck in Grapes of Wrath…in the US there was a 10 million population shortfall in the 1930s…the true ‘Holodomor’…

    This shameful history, where tenant farmers were driven off the land in the dustbowl years and millions literally starved to death while trying to survive as salve labor on massive private fruit plantations in California is the story preserved for all time in Grapes of Wrath…[see if you can find the 1940 movie with Henry Fonda on youtube]…

    The folk singer Woodie Guthrie and the photographer Dorothea Lange also preserved the memory of the Dust Bowl and the starving ‘Okies’ as the migrant farmers came to be known…of course the idiots you will here and elsewhere are completely ignorant of true history…proving that the Pavlovian agenda of the oligarch class has completely enslaved these fools to the point where they are totally ignorant of their own history, but with heads filled with bizarre nonsense about Chinese and Soviet ‘famines’ that were far less than what happened in capitalist America…

    It’s great that Ron Unz allows the voice of Godfree Roberts to be heard here…a true gift to those of us who are interested in digging out from the mountain of lies that have been heaped upon us by the worst scoundrels the world has ever known…

    • Agree: Cyrano
    • Thanks: Iris, Parfois1
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    , @Lo
  454. A few interesting reflections in the link below on the crisis and the economy and on how it will likely accelerate China’s rise to the top, something which was coming anyway.

    https://sputniknews.com/analysis/202003251078703856-winners–losers-of-a-global-recession-why-the-covid-19-crisis-may-accelerate-chinas-rise/

  455. @clip

    You are also assuming that the death rates are correct. In many European countries including Italy, Austria, Croatia (which I know for a fact since I know doctors in each of these), any death that in post mortem tests shows COVID-19 presence is counted as COVID-19 death. Basically, if you get hit by a car crossing the street and die, and you happen to test positive for COVID-19 after death (without ever exhibiting any symptoms before death), you are still counted among the COVID-19 death stats.

    Now, this if anything, in only demonstrating the willingness of governments to inflate COVID-19 death numbers, to spread undue panic and consequently destroy the economy of their respective countries. Remember also that in a lot of countries working is now outlawed. There could be any number of reasons for these desires from pure economic to more esoteric depending on which conspiracy theory you subscribe to.

    • Replies: @9/11 Inside job
  456. S says:
    @Amanda

    And they are trotting out famous people and Hollywood types to keep selling the narrative:

    Not just ‘Hollywood types’, but royalty too.

    The BBC has just announced that Prince Charles has tested positive for the virus.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52033845

  457. FB says: • Website
    @Iris

    Iris…I wish you would actually read what I said…which is that computer models are APPROXIMATIONS and need to make SIMPLIFYING ASSUMPTIONS that don’t exist in real life…

    I’m well aware that aerodynamics is part of fluid mechanics, thanks…I learned that about two seconds into my undergrad studies 40 years ago…

    My point here was not to get into an elaborate description of computer models, which in fluid mechanics are called computational fluid dynamics…

    To be precise, these ‘models’ use so-called ‘numerical’ methods to solve partial differential equations [which are unsolvable] by means of APPROXIMATION…mostly what is used is the so-called finite element method [FE], where the problem is broken down into a mesh containing thousands of points in the fluid flow [or a structure], and each point solved by means of simple algebra [which is the only thing a computer can really solve]…thus the APPROXIMATIONS…

    An example is the Navier-Stokes equations for fluid flow with friction [viscosity]…which have been around for nearly 200 years, but not solvable by math [analysis]…

    The same FE math approximations is used in other physics such as structures etc…

    The important thing to keep in mind here for the layman reading this is that these computer ‘models’ are ALWAYS approximations and are often NOT VERY GOOD…and depend very much on trial and error, and the skill of the person building these models…

    I would guess this is even more true for biology, which is incredibly complex and not nearly as straightforward as mechanics…

    • Replies: @Iris
    , @Parfois1
    , @Olivier1973
  458. Bookish1 says:
    @Lo

    The real big war that we have always heard about is going to be between Russia and China over siberia since Siberia has every natural resource that you can think of (and probably more) including diamonds, gold, oil, timber and everything else and it is untouched since there was no way to get down into that frozen earth. Until now that is.

    • Replies: @Parfois1
  459. Iris says:
    @FB

    I agree, FB. Many thanks for your very informative comments. Best.

  460. Cyrano says:
    @FB

    My own great-grandfather spent those crucial years in the American gulag during the great depression. He was supposed to bring home a small fortune – which would have made a huge difference in the desperately poor Balkan country that he was from.

    It didn’t turn out that way, his savings were massacred by the great depression, and all he managed to bring home, was enough money for a very modest little house that he built, and a cow. I can’t even begin to imagine the sacrifices that he made for his family – alone for somewhere between 10-20 years (I have no accurate information on this), trying to build a better life for his family.

    Anyway, the house is still there today, standing strong – like the man who build it. It’s made of stone, and is probably going to last for another 100 years. One of my cousins uses it only as a summer retreat, and I have spent countless hours in it as a kid. But I bet that if someone asked my great-grandfather what was his biggest regret in life-undoubtedly he would have said that he regrets the most that he wasn’t allowed to participate in the greatest democracy of them all by voting – because he wasn’t an American citizen. He lived an impoverished life indeed.

    • Replies: @John Chuckman
  461. @Super Mario

    There is no accurate or reliable test for COVID-19 and it is very difficult to test for it under lab conditions . Therefore, how are they testing for COVID-19 in Italy,Austria and Croatia ? In light of my previous statement, I assume that the doctors doing these post-mortem tests are lying about the results . As many people are now realizing this is a “faux pandemic” , a psyop and as Ron Paul has observed it should be called “The Coronavirus hoax”ronpaulinstitute.org

  462. @Anonymous

    How often are we bombarded by phrases “The West made Russia strong”, “Japan only learned from us; without us they’d be nothing” and “We made China, all they had was cheap ant-like labor”.

    We are not “bombarded” by those phrases. This sounds like something playing in your own head, but you lack the character to address your thoughts on their own terms.

    You’ve been taught that chauvinism is evil, that it’s a sin to think of your own culture as superior, that the very phrase “us and them” is problematic. Thus, you condemn your own thoughts. You’ve been neutered and are incapable of protecting “us” from “them”.

    In truth, “them” is still there, despite what the globalist media and Hollywood propaganda have made you believe. All successful cultures know this. Our own culture, once mighty and confident, is no longer successful. It has been rotted from the inside and is incapable of resisting “them”.

    You are not one of “them” and never will be. To them, you are just another deplorable. And you will pay the price.

    • Replies: @John Chuckman
  463. Bookish1 says:
    @Anonymous

    The american indians didn’t even have a written language when the white man came. Whie ingenuity would have won the day for whites no matter what.

  464. Chinaman says:
    @Anonymous

    Thank you. I appreciate the analysis (and perhaps a bit of honest introspection).

    Having live and worked with whites all my life, it dovetails with my own observations and belief. I am thinking whether this is human nature or unique to white people. I might hold the same grudge if India managed to surpass China one day. Nothing like Envy that poisons the soul. Anyway, I think there are going to be exceptions to the rule in any narrative. Having ran a company in the US in the past (albeit unsuccessfully), I have to say there are many whites who do treat me at least as equals and do want to see me succeed. As usual, it is those who are on the bottom of the socioeconomic totem pole who want to pull everyone else with them.

    You are right that human behavior is driven by illogical primal drives. Psychologically, I guess the messianic complex and the superiority complex is always fighting for dominance. If these other races are far away and doesn’t seem a threat, then you want to save them. if they are the next-door neighbor who drive a better car, then genocide is a serious option.

    For example, I see mainstream media pundits (and also some UNZ regulars) chastise the Chinese for throwing the Muslim Uyghurs into concentration camps (not true of course) but then turn around and support the Muslim ban in American and the applaud the assassination and murder of millions of Muslims in the middle east.

    No one seems to realize the contradiction and irony.

    • Replies: @John Chuckman
  465. @Chinaman

    I think it sits well in contrast to the racist attacks on Chinese coolies in California during the gold rush. I wonder how many died due to racial violence which were never acknowledged. The Chinese exclusion act were unique in history for its blatant racism.

    Attention white folks: look for increasing attention paid to the Chinese Exclusion Act. Someday, it will be used as justification to steal your property.

    As for “unique in history for its blatant racism”: I would say the Boxer Rebellion, during which the scene with the American missionaries and their children being hacked to death by a mob was repeated (at the behest of the Empress Dowager) all over China against any white person (though in the country legally), was an example of racism substantially more blatant than a democratically passed piece of legislation.

    • Replies: @Chinaman
    , @anonymous
  466. Parfois1 says:
    @Anon

    Why do people conceal their networks.. that is another question. For example, take the YPO. (Young Presidents Organization). Quite in vogue in the US and other countries. A network of under 50 CEOs that support each other, very above-board and status-symbolish. But there’s a devil in the details:

    Interesting, thank you. I remember years ago a friend tried to get me into a similar group (forgot the name) where members pick up a non-business project and carried it through. At the time my Social Psychology was still fresh in my mind and I did notice something “sinister” about it and did not join.
    Presumably it fosters the concept of cliquism and the formation of isolated clandestine cells to be later integrated into a higher order organization similar to the Nazi Sturmabteilung, not necessarily of the martial variety.

  467. @Cyrano

    Thanks, an interesting anecdote.

    • Thanks: Cyrano
  468. @Craig Nelsen

    I’m sorry, but I think you are very mistaken in these assertions.

  469. @Chinaman

    Indeed, but the ironies come thick and fast in America anymore.

    And it is almost as though whatever a trashy government like the current American one says about anything, anything at all, if you assume the opposite is true, you will be closer to truth.

  470. TRM says:
    @Gleimhart Mantooso

    And what makes you think it will be a nuclear war? A bio war with plausible deniability is way more likely. If the USA gets hit with a cattle virus that wipes out most of the cattle you will know it is game on.

    You are naive to think there is only one way to fight a war. Nuclear weapons will be the last ones used.

  471. Parfois1 says:
    @Iris

    The mystery deepens, thank you for exposing another angle. It was hard enough with the simple vision of the bat soup but now we have to deal with a veritable Hydra rising ugly heads everywhere. Still I cling to my unshakable belief (for the moment) that Uncle Sham was in it up his eyeballs, probably riding the Hydra himself remote controlled by MOTU (((Masters of the Universe))).

    • Replies: @Iris
  472. @KA

    No testing, no infection.

    Why did the CDC block testing until March–two full months after it received the WHO red notice?

  473. @Escher

    Doubtless for sound bureaucratic reasons, the CDC blocked testing for Covid-19 for two months after it received the WHO red notice. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-delays.html

    Bureaucracies are pretty much the same everywhere, I’m afraid.

  474. Iris says:
    @Parfois1

    This opinion article published on China’s official CGTN website is very interesting:

    https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-03-25/COVID-19-patient-zero-may-remain-an-unsolved-mystery-P952WNMudi/index.html

    It states in a diplomatic but firm manner that Patient Zero has not yet been identified, neither in China nor in Italy.

    It goes on explaining that the only way to trace back the epidemic trail and identify Patient Zero was to sequence the virus’ genome in all the places it appeared. Furthermore, such genetic sequencing is vital to understanding how the virus’ genetic structure evolved and how the contamination process was made possible, all in order to prevent future pandemic episodes.

    So Uncle Sham’s duty is to collaborate, be transparent and share his Covid-19 information with the rest of the world, if he really is intent on fighting pandemics. If he doesn’t, well, we’ll know what this means. Best.

    • Replies: @John Chuckman
  475. anon[397] • Disclaimer says:
    @Realist

    Actually, both liberal & conservative NPC’s hate China.

    • Replies: @Realist
  476. Parfois1 says:
    @FB

    The important thing to keep in mind here for the layman reading this is that these computer ‘models’ are ALWAYS approximations and are often NOT VERY GOOD

    My daughter taught me that years ago when she was studying (or attempting to) cloud formations and motion. The number and complexity of interconnecting variables is so vast and their behaviour so unpredictable that modern computer power was unable to bring predictability (that was about 15 years ago, perhaps there have been improvements since). At the time and compared the study of cloud behaviour with economic models used to predict actual economic trends: just tools to befuddle the layman.

    PS – She gave up staring at clouds and became a philosopher. Perhaps as bad!!!

  477. @Lo

    It’s not that simple, Lo.

    As commenters above suggest, it appears that Covid-19 was circulating here last Fall.

    Here are some documented cases of circulation abroad:

    The novel coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 was in Northern Italy as early as 1 January.

    An epidemiological analysis of Lombardy, the epicentre of the outbreak in Italy, reveals that the first onset of symptoms in the country occurred weeks before the disease was reported there on 20 February. The study looks at nearly 6,000 laboratory-confirmed cases to track how the outbreak unfolded in the region. It was posted to the arXiv preprint server on 20 March. The undetected spread in January is “very striking”, says Michele Tizzoni, an infectious disease modeller at the ISI Foundation in Turin, Italy, who was not involved in the work. “At that time we were probably still talking about Wuhan.” Instead, by the time the first case was detected in Italy, the virus had already spread to most towns and cities in Southern Lombardy. Over the next several weeks, nearly half of the patients who tested positive for COVID-19 were hospitalised; about one-fifth of those required intensive care.

    The coronavirus that causes Covid-19 may have spread beyond China before the health authorities had even discovered the disease, according to the Italian professor who recently said there had been “very strange pneumonias” in Europe as early as November last year. Remuzzi said he had learned about the cases from a few general practitioners and he has not yet been able to verify the information. But he said there are some other suspicious cases he “knows for sure”, including two pneumonia cases in Scanzorosciate in northern Italy in December, where the patients developed high fever, a cough and had difficulty in breathing.
    He said there had also been 10 patients who developed bilateral interstitial pneumonia in two other nearby towns, Fara Gera D’Adda and Crema, who had similar symptoms.

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3076792/italian-professor-repeats-warning-coronavirus-may-have-spread

    Coronavirus may have infected half of UK population — Oxford study
    https://www.ft.com/content/5ff6469a-6dd8-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

    • Replies: @Olivier1973
  478. Robjil says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    I know it sounds weird but we live in Zion Theocracy.

    [MORE]

    3/10 is Purim this year. Our rulers had to wait till Purim to open the gates of fear for this disease.

    It is a pattern.

    1991- war on Iraq ends on Purim

    2003- war on Iraq starts on Purim

    2011-war on Libya starts on Purim

    2019- US says Golan Heights is Israel’s on Purim

  479. @Godfree Roberts

    Coronavirus may have infected half of UK population — Oxford study
    https://www.ft.com/content/5ff6469a-6dd8-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

    No, no way, not yet. On little less than 100’000 people tested less of 10% were positive.

    • Thanks: Commentator Mike
    • Replies: @NPleeze
  480. @FB

    which is that computer models are APPROXIMATIONS and need to make SIMPLIFYING ASSUMPTIONS that don’t exist in real life…

    Thanks a lot for that very simple truth. Now it is only necessary to tell people using computers, because most of them are not aware of that.

  481. Crazy Horse says: • Website

    Interesting article published in FRN today:

    https://www.fort-russ.com/2020/03/military-dictatorship-ruling-class-launches-bio-war-against-humanity/

    If the US along with its partner in crime Israel did launch this as a bioweapon then blowback doesn’t even begin to describe the subsequent consequences. If their military objective was to take out China, Russia and Iran then this is a major reversal reversal on their evil little plan.

  482. anon[143] • Disclaimer says:
    @windjammer

    But no data from Italy, which would be the important comparison?

  483. Parfois1 says:
    @Bookish1

    “… including diamonds, gold, oil, timber and everything else and it is untouched since there was no way to get down into that frozen earth. Until now that is.”

    Ignorant bullshit. Mines in the Arctic Siberia have been operating at least since 1930s to fuel and produce the industrialization of the USSR. Graphite mining had been in operation in the Kureika region (where Stalin was exile to during the last four years before the Revolution, 1913-17) for more than 100 years Some of the mines are gigantic, such as the 500-metre deep diamond mine at Mirny, now abandoned, where temperatures go down as far as -55 C. It is very cold, but permafrost has not impeded exploration even when using the then available primitive machinery.

  484. NPleeze says:
    @John Chuckman

    The infection, it is suggested, rolled through European and American populations a while back.

    I can believe the pandemic started around the time Fort Detrick was closed, and all of the early deaths were attributed to pneumonia/vaping in the US (since the CDC shut down Fort Detrick, and has covered up why that was done, it would have been easy to cover up those deaths as well).

    We don’t have the stats to show how many deaths have been attributed to flu / pneumonia in the last 5 months, but it’s also not clear that would reveal anything, since flu season starts in about October, which would be the “gestation” period of the virus in most folks.

    Like I wrote in some posts in Unz’s related post, for all we know 100 million Americans have already been infected, and those who are dying in the next few weeks will be it.

    But it’s speculation. Unless random testing is done, there’s little evidence to go on – and the CDC won’t do it. That is either b/c they are utterly incompetent/stupid (very possible), they don’t have enough kits to do testing (that would also be utterly incompetent of course), or they are still engaged in their cover-up.

    If the disease suddenly peters out in the US, despite these half-measures, I think that will be conclusive proof that it was a Fort Detrick release.

  485. @Anonymous

    The legwork will not be done, because the CDC will resist it, just as they ordered Dr. Chu in Seattle to stop her testing.

    Due to that obstruction (coverup), I am assuming the virus was created at Ft Detrick, that participants in the military games were deliberately infected (though the individuals might not have known), and sent to Wuhan to introduce the virus to China. A completely different strain was introduced to both Italy and Iran through some yet to be determined vector.

    I will choose to believe that until either 1) the CDC authorizes an independent investigation including testing of all specimens taken from deceased ILI patients and a check of the serum antibodies of the survivors of ILI or “vaping syndrome” in the second half of 2019 or 2) I die.

  486. Parfois1 says:
    @Olivier1973

    Thank you Olivier, much appreciated. We may not get the smoking gun (probably buried in a grave or smelted in a crematorium), but the circumstantial evidence will be enough for finger pointing in due course.

  487. NPleeze says:
    @Olivier1973

    Here’s a non-paywall article on the Oxford modeling (not a STUDY, FFS! :)): https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/oxford-study-coronavirus-may-have-infected-half-of-u-k.html

    less of 10% were positive

    What does positive mean? If they had it and recovered, do they test positive? If there were immune (as 80% of the population may be), do they test positive? If they have mild system, and the virus is maybe in the lungs but not in the mouth where they swab, does it test positive?

    People keep assuming the infallibility of these tests, it’s just fucking amazing.

    • Replies: @Olivier1973
  488. 22pp22 says:
    @Chinaman

    I find Godfree so annoying that I like to provoke him and his acolytes. Singapore and Taiwan are the Chinese societies I respect. I assume the CCP is lying most of the time and most of the time I am right. Godfree just now tried to say tell me that living standards were in some way comparable in China and the USA in the 80s. That is daft. I love this site, but I cannot comprehend why Godfree is employed as a writer here. He is a blind worshipper of the CCP. He does not bring a fresh perspective. Ron Unz might as well employ a shill for the Norks.

    • Replies: @NPleeze
  489. 22pp22 says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    The words of a gullible fanatic.

    Everybody lies sometimes even if by accident. We all do. We make mistakes. We say things we believe at the time to be true but turn out not to be. It is simply impossible for any government or person not to speak a falsehood once in sixty years.

    Lance Welton made a fool of himself over this. I would have some respect for him if he owned up to it. For you I have not and never will have any respect.

    This site plays a very important social function, but its credibility will suffer if continues to employ kooks.

  490. Chinaman says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Don’t worry, we don’t need your money or reparation. It is the other way round. America owe China a trillion dollars and senator is also trying to use the coronavirus as a pretext to not pay back those loans. How much property does America have ? The NET asset of 60% of Americans is ZERO.

    Democracy…right …so was it to the will of the America people to order its armies to bayonet babies in My Lai and commit one of the worst war crimes known to the world in the 60s ? (you might Still remember the “baby killers“ if you are the boomers who are still walking free) Or was it simply just racism? may I remind you Americans were the only country in the world to have dropped nuclear bomb on civilian populations..oh..what about bombing dams and civilian targets in North Korea that led to the death of 25% of NK’s population? If that is not genocide, I don’t know what is…

    With all these Atrocities and war crimes, it is quite surprising you still have the audacity of talk about all the good things that America have brought to the world.

    Do you know why there was a boxer rebellion in the first place? did I misunderstood Chinese history and all these white people were in China NOT to colonise China ? Was the introduction the pleasures of opium to the Chinaman part of the good things that whites brought to us?

    You just cherry pick your facts to fit your narrative. For every American missionary that was butchered, I can give you hundred thousand Asians killed by Americans.

  491. Anonymous[194] • Disclaimer says:
    @dave.x

    The article implies that Americans were the only participants at these Military World Games, however that’s not true. It was a global event. How can we be sure it wasn’t another country that infected the rest?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Military_World_Games

    The ceremony officially started Ocotber 16th, 2019
    Obviously, the athletes had to arrive earlier than that.

    The incubation time of COVID-19 is about 5.5 days with a range between 11.5 days to 2.2 days.
    https://www.jwatch.org/na51083/2020/03/13/covid-19-incubation-period-update

    “Five of the US troops developed a fever on Oct. 25 and were taken to an infectious-diseases hospital for treatment.”

    So there is a 9 day period between the official start of the event (ignoring time to arrive and get set up in living arrangements) and symptoms for these five US troops. Knowing the time it takes to acquire symptoms from COVID-19, the timing just doesn’t match up.

    Incubation time for Malaria is 10 days to 4 weeks.

    Ultimately, this article is disingenuous because it implies this virus has to have either a Chinese origin or American origin, however, can we really say that for sure?

  492. NPleeze says:
    @22pp22

    I assume the CCP is lying most of the time and most of the time I am right

    So if I pull 10 random articles from a CCP website, 6 articles will be wrong? How much would you like to wager?

    US government and media are the biggest and most nefarious liars on the planet and I don’t see how they can be outdone by even the Norks.

    • Agree: Godfree Roberts
  493. Chinaman says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    The part I don’t understand is why these haters love to bring out the great famine as a red herring or straw man whenever you are using facts and stats to confront them. It is as if it was their own ancestors that got starve to death! they cite the great famine not because it is a tragedy but just to feel a little sanctimonious and better about themselves. The fact that they derive some sort of sick pleasure reveal the psychopaths that they are. To them, it is a joke. They more Chinese died, the more satisfied they are.

    Communism was a fucking mistake and the CCP realise and acknowledge it. It wasn’t as if Mao was intentionally tried to kill all these people. It is the breakdown of a centrally managed economy with no price mechanism and accountability on many levels that lead to such tragedy. It is the fault of the system and the bureaucracy itself…it is so naive to just attribute it to Mao.

  494. antibeast says:

    The fact that they derive some sort of sick pleasure reveal the psychopaths that they are. To them, it is a joke. They more Chinese died, the more satisfied they are.

    Yup. That about sums it up.

  495. @Parfois1

    Under 20th Century Genocides one may find an example of extreme inflation of the number of victims, but the genocide in question didn’t occur in Soviet Russia, nor in Mao’s China. To discover which genocide claims laughably impossible victim totals, search for the one that claims laughably absurd atrocities like lampshades made from human skin.

  496. Wuhan CoronaVirus Patient Zero Revisited:

  497. @Godfree Roberts

    Well, I could believe you, or I could believe someone who was there. But, I don’t understand your need to exonerate communism. Everywhere communism was implemented, it was a disaster–something anyone with average intelligence would predict, given Marx’s inversion of the human condition. Why should China be any different?

    Marx is unworkable garbage that destroys societies to the extent it gains a foothold. It gained total control in China, and the Chinese suffered horribly. The only ones who ever make out under communism are the sadistic brutes who ride Marxism to power–the genocidalists themselves. Perhaps it is with them your sympathies lie?

  498. Getaclue says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Seems they’ve been lying recently– nicely documented right here : https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/chinas-devastating-lies/ — yes seems a lot of recent lies on top of those the “Party” pops out daily — when its not disappearing people for criticizing “dear leader pooh bear”: https://www.foxnews.com/world/high-profile-chinese-tycoon-missing-after-calling-president-xi-jinping-a-clown

    (Also for all the Mao “lovers” here –There are good books written about the absolute carnage of Mao and, on top of a record holding Mass Murderer, what a cretin at a personal level he was– here’s one:https://www.amazon.com/Mao-Story-Jung-Chang/dp/0679746323)

    Find it kind of funny sort of…– Ron Unz here is proprietor of this site– what with the “Elite Establishment”/Mainstream Media is not a particularly popular outlet– no one here would dispute that I would guess?– questioning 911 “facts”, proclaiming Israel a cancer, Holocaust narrative questions, use of Race as a weapon etc…. in fact some of the writers here have actually been booted out of the Mainstream Media and landed here– alive but out….– Ron constantly has pieces attacking what the “Elite”/People “running” things/their Media are trying to sell (which I personally think is great!)– him and his here aren’t buying what they are selling and are quite vocal about it! Again, I don’t think anyone would disagree?

    My question is– if Ron Unz was doing just this same thing in China — as to the Communist Party “Elites” who run things over there like he does to the “Elites” who run things here — how would things go for him over in Communist China? A week, a day, an hour? How long would he be allowed to run a site like this in China? How long until they showed up at his door in an “unfriendly” manner and loaded him into a van? How long until he disappeared? How long until he was just a memory that people feared to even mention? OK then, back to cheer leading for those wonderful ChiComs with Comrade Godfree….

    • Agree: Craig Nelsen
    • Replies: @Biff
    , @Godfree Roberts
  499. @22pp22

    Your ad hominem conceal an awful truth: you have no facts to back up what you say.

    I do.

    You also make up statements and attribute them to me.

    If you’ve caught the PRC in a lie, give us the direct quote and a link to it.

    Pay me the same courtesy. Don’t be a troll.

    • Replies: @Craig Nelsen
  500. @anon

    In 2014, Hadassah magazine published an article that pointed out Anne Schuchat’s Jewish background and praised her accomplishments at CDC, even quoting

    “Dr. Schuchat’s supervisor, Dr. Rima Khabbaz, [also Jewish] CDC’s deputy director for infectious diseases, calls her a great leader. During the 2009 H1N1 pandemic, Dr. Khabbaz says, “She was the face of public health at CDC.

    On Nov 19, 2019, Schuchat pointed to vaping as a source of illnesses.
    https://www.c-span.org/video/?465905-5/washington-journal-dr-anne-schuchat-discusses-rise-vaping-related-illness

    On Feb. 11, 2020, Anne Schuchat said, “While coronavirus spreading faster than SARS, it could be less severe.” https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/practices/3-takeaways-for-clinicians-emerging-coronavirus-crisis

    Two weeks later, Schuchat stood with Pres. Trump and said, “Aggressive containment efforts have been working.” https://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/02/26/cdcs-dr-anne-schuchat-on-preventing-the-spread-of-coronavirus.html

    Less than Three weeks after that, on Mar 13, 2020, Pres. Trump declared a national emergency.
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/13/politics/donald-trump-emergency/index.html

    To which the Unz Forum’s self-described resident “defender of Jews and Israel” had this to say:
    @ Fran Taubman,

    Forget Anne Schuchet.

    The source of Corona is

    “The wet market . . . in China [it] has been an issue forever. . . .Forget Anne Schuchet. Just google it there are a million articles. Hot topic. Common sense would lead one to a virus form a Zoonotic.”

    What does this tell us about the credibility of CDC, of Anne Schuchet, and of Fran Taubman?

    Has Schuchet reached the Peter Principle? Is it time for CDC researchers and those charged with protecting the public health of the American people to come clean?

    Will Fran Taubman lead the effort demanding that exercise in integrity?

  501. mastodon says:

    20yrs ago I got interested and with many others worked out for ourselves that continuous growth on a finite planet will end in tears. Part of the reading was a book produced by The club of Rome, Limits to growth, the research for said book that was funded by the few at the top…

    Today the few at the top must surely be able to reach the same conclusion, so what to do….
    option 1) the system collapses thru too much debt created while trying to keep growth going or resource limits are hit hard or (many options)
    —–result: the mob witness the failings of the system and change it, those at the top as a minimum lose control….. or
    option 2) have something else crash the system, which by way of a bonus number smacks a couple of recalcitrant nations alongside the head, global reset enabled with the few still at the top, power/control retained and none the wiser…=> msm virusvirusviruspanicpanic

    I begin to feel this is not a nation/nation punchup, this is the round ? of the few against the rest.

    Read Overshoot by Catton for an excellent biological assessment of our predicament

    Peace

  502. anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:

    Now that the article has fallen off the homepage, will we see any further reportage from Mr. Roberts (or anyone else) on the specific, contestable claims about Uncle Sam’s use of biological agents? I want to know more about the Chinese government’s suspicions, the claimed Pompeo phone call, etc.

    Most of the comment thread confirms my early fear that the author’s schoolgirl crush on another country’s rulers would enable the ad hominem, distracting China bashing/defending above.

  503. Biff says:
    @Getaclue

    Seems they’ve been lying recently– nicely documented right here :

    Nicely documented in the National Review???!! Bwaaahhh!!! You’ve even got the ghost of Saddam laughing at that one…

  504. Realist says:
    @anon

    The reason it was not worse is that over the preceding decade, computer code on critical systems had been examined, and any problems were identified and either fixed or worked around.

    Ms. Johnstone’s article is correct. There may be some animosity toward China from a few on the left, but nothing like on the right.
    Since both parties are extensions of the Deep State, all hatred of both Russia and China are fear of the end of US global dominance and hegemony.

  505. @Craig Nelsen

    Everywhere communism was implemented, it was a disaster? Nobody, as far as I’m aware, has ever claimed to have implemented communism.

    Marx was very clear that capitalism came first. So was Mao, who wrote[1] President Roosevelt a plea he repeated to Truman and Eisenhower, “China must industrialize. This can only be done by free enterprise. Chinese and American interests fit together, economically and politically. America need not fear that we will not be co-operative. We cannot risk any conflict.”

    All ignored him (because he refused to be

    colonized

    by foreign capital)?

    Some people refuse to understand why the Chinese Communists do not fear capitalism but, on the contrary, develop it as much as possible. Our answer is simple: we have to replace foreign imperialist and native feudalist oppression with capitalist development because that is the inevitable course of our economy and because both the capitalist class and the proletariat benefit. What we don’t need is not native capitalism but foreign imperialism and native feudalism. On the contrary, our capitalism is indeed too little..Enormous capital is required to develop industry. Where will it come from? It can only come from two sources: the capital accumulated by the Chinese people themselves and from foreign loans, and we must welcome all foreign investments as long as they obey the laws of China and are advantageous to our economy. [2]

    Nevertheless, to the degree that Mao implemented communism it was remarkably successful: despite crushing embargoes and constant threats of war, he grew the economy 300% faster than the US during its boom years and did so for 25 years. Far from ‘suffering horribly,’ the Chinese were healthier, happier and better off than India when he stepped down–despite the fact that India was far wealthier in 1950.

    It will be at least a century before anyone (China) is ready to implement communism. A clear, well-organized, flexible and firm leadership is required: so far the CPC is providing that. More important is the people: communism requires extraordinary maturity of the entire population and China’s population is just becoming 100% literate, so there’s a lot of foundational work to be done. Having lived in a communistic society for 30 years, I can promise you that it’s way, waaaay better than the dog-eat-dog, dumbass society we endure today.

    Read Marx’s critiques of capitalism and you will think he’s describing the US today.

    _________________________________

    [1] Mission to Yenan: American Liaison with the Chinese Communists, 1944-1947 by Carolle J. Carter
    [2] Portrait of a Revolutionary. Robert Payne. Abelard-Schuman. 1950.

  506. antibeast says:
    @anonymous

    Now that the article has fallen off the homepage, will we see any further reportage from Mr. Roberts (or anyone else) on the specific, contestable claims about Uncle Sam’s use of biological agents? I want to know more about the Chinese government’s suspicions, the claimed Pompeo phone call, etc.

    The ball is in the US court. Why aren’t the CDC, NIH and DHHS doing their job? They should be doing massive tests of present and past patients all the way to October 2019 in order to map out the epidemiological history of Covid-19 in the USA.

    Most of the comment thread confirms my early fear that the author’s schoolgirl crush on another country’s rulers would enable the ad hominem, distracting China bashing/defending above.

    The critics of the author don’t even bother addressing the disturbing issues raised in this article which is the lack of urgency on the part of US public health authorities in discovering the epidemiological history of Covid-19 in the USA. Instead, we have US officials from the National Security State (“Deep State“) vilifying China on a daily basis for the Covid-19 pandemic which is supposed to be a Public Health Emergency not a National Security Threat.

    Why are they behaving like something went wrong in the USA?

  507. @Getaclue

    Your first link leads to an article by Jim Geraghty, The Comprehensive Timeline of China’s COVID-19 Lies. Let me give a more complete timeline:

    August 6, 2019–America’s main biological warfare lab at Fort Detrick shut down by the CDC, an unheard-of intervention into military affairs, because of violation of safety protocols and effluent leaks. A senior scientist describe an atmosphere as “fear and mistrust.” HHS refuses to provide details.

    August – September 2019–A nationwide outbreak of a mysterious respiratory disease causes severe respiratory problems in hundreds of people. Imaging of vaping-associated lung disease and Covid-19 invariably show the same bilateral ground-glass opacities. the same ground-glass opacity.

    Oct. 18 2019–The Deputy Director of the CIA participated in a Johns Hopkins, WEF, and the Gates Foundation hosted a pandemic tabletop exercise codenamed Event 201 modeling a fictional coronavirus pandemic.

    Oct. 18–27, 2019–Wuhan Military Games, Wuhan, China. Cyclist Maatje Benassi participated and her husband, Matthew, works at Fort Detrick.

    November, 2019–Coronavirus identified in Italy after laboratory tests isolated a strain of the virus from an Italian patient with genetic differences from the original strain isolated in China. Massimo Galli, professor of infectious diseases at the University of Milan said, “Very strange pneumonias” circulated in Europe as early as November last year.

    Dec. 27, 2019 – Dr. Zhang Jixian, ICU doctor at Hubei Hospital reports to Wuhan Municipal Health Commission on pneumonia patients with an unknown cause..

    Dec. 28, 2019– three more patients arrive at the hospital, all related to Huanan Seafood Market.

    Dec. 30, 2019 – Wuhan Municipal Health Committee issues notice of an unknown viral illness.

    Dec. 31, 2019–Beijing receives virus genome results, informs WHO of Wuhan pneumonia with unknown cause. Wuhan announces virus on CCTV and CGTN.

    Jan. 1, 2020– Chinese CCDC researchers publish an article on suspected outbreak. Seafood market shut down.

    Jan. 3, 2020–China reports 44 suspected patients with the mystery pneumonia. National Health Commission classifies it as a highly pathogenic, orders all labs without high pathogen licenses to destroy or transfer samples to secure labs.

    Jan. 9, 2020– Chinese labs confirm the existence of the new virus, begin genetic sequencing. China reports the death of a 61-year-old male in Wuhan with several underlying medical conditions.

    Jan 11, 2020–China uploads the genetic sequence of the novel coronavirus to an international database.

    Jan 14, 2020– WHO reports “limited human-to-human transmission between close contacts and assesses that there was no clear evidence of sustained human-to-human transmission.

    Jan. 15, 2020.– Oxford University’s Evolutionary Ecology of Infectious Disease group says Covid-19 reached the UK no later than mid-January and may have infected half the population by March 21.

    January 18, 2020–US HHS runs a6-month “Crimson Contagion” scenario of a respiratory virus pandemic that begins in China and quickly spreads around the world.

    Jan. 21, 2020 – WHO confirms human-to-human transmission of the virus.

    Jan. 24, 2020 – Complete quarantine of Wuhan.

    Jan. 28, 2020 – First confirmed coronavirus case at Seattle clinic.

    Jan. 30, 2020 – US State and Federal officials refuse permission for Dr. Chu, UW infectious disease expert permission to repurpose ongoing tests to monitor for coronavirus.

    Feb. 3, 2020. US CDC refuses to adopt a WHO approved test and ships 200 test kits, capable of producing results on 700 to 800 samples, to states.

    Feb. 15, 2020–CDC announces that its tests were flawed, and recalls them.

    Feb 16-24, 2020– WHO Joint Mission headed by American Dr. Bruce Aylward report that China’s response to the outbreak of Covid-19 has been ‘exceedingly transparent, swift, effective and lifesaving.’

    Feb. 25, 2020 –Dr. Chu and UW colleagues begin coronavirus testing without government approval, get an immediate positive Covid-19 result. By then, the virus has contributed to the deaths of two people and would kill twenty more in the Seattle region over the following days.

    March 3, 2020–CDC announces it will distribute diagnostic kits to test 75,000 people by March 17. The C.D.C. decided not to adopt a test approved by the World Health Organization and instead forged ahead with its own test.

    Mar. 11, 2020–US announces it has tested 5,000 people suspected of C-19 infection.

    Mar. 12, 2020– CDC director Dr. Robert Redfield testifies to Congress that some early fatalities attributed to ‘flu have been attributed to C-19 after post-mortem analysis. Dr. Redfield does not identify their dates or locations.

    March 12, 2020–Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian says the United States that lacks transparency. “When did patient zero begin in the US? How many people are infected? What are the names of the hospitals? It might be the US army who brought the epidemic to Wuhan. Be transparent! Make public your data! The US owes us an explanation!”

    March 20, 2020–US State Department cables all officials: NSC Top Lines: Propaganda and Disinformation on the Wuhan Virus Pandemic. Chinese Communist Party officials in Wuhan and Beijing had a special responsibility to inform the Chinese people and the world of the threat, since they were the first to learn of it. Instead, the… government hid news of the virus from its own people for weeks, while suppressing information and punishing doctors and journalists who raised the alarm. The Party cared more about its reputation than its own people’s suffering. “These talking points are all anyone is really talking about right now,” one official said. “Everything is about China. We’re being told to try and get this messaging out in any way possible, including press conferences and television appearances.”

    Covid-19 video timeline:

    • Thanks: Iris, vot tak
  508. Getaclue says:

    Are you trying to say the ChiComs have not been experimenting with this? That they have not released SARS etc. before– and even admitted doing so? The ChiComs admit this–you seem to be trying to indicate otherwise….– (I don’t doubt the USA has plenty of Globalist Mad Scientists at work also (many are probably on board with the Communist program–certainly may of the “Elite” are in fact Communists– even the Ivy League is full of “Professors” who clearly are these days and the NYSlimes has nothing but love for Mao and Comrade Stalin etc….)–the USA released Lyme Disease out of Plum Island, also “accidentally”, where it was invented and rode out on the backs of Deer who swam it to shore– but your zeal as to the NWO loving ChiComs is misplaced by the facts of this history as to creating these viruses and otherwise: https://fromrome.info/2020/03/26/rai-in-2015-reported-that-the-chinese-had-developed-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR0MLZ7Hs3SJJlKTlLf5UQu_H464xAHc6DuGGJGXFPbT3Ym3_SBcJ5EozP0 The NWO ChiComs are just as bad as the NWO lunatics in the USA and the West and just as dangerous to the Peons….

    Also you didn’t address what I said as to Ron Unz and what would happen to him if he attempted to operate the UNZ REVIEW there and attacked the Communist Party “Elite” as he does the Western “Elite” here (something I’m all for by the way….) (neither did the loser who just posted an attack on the National Review of course “attacking the source” as morons do these days who can’t state facts or argument… )–

    Does UNZ get a knock on the door and stuffed into a Van by some unfriendly folks for running his blog attacking the ChiCom “Elites” in China? Or is he allowed to operate as he is still allowed to do here (for how long may be a question at some point forward….)? You don’t need to answer- – your not answering was an answer because we both know that Ron Unz would be in that Van and gone very fast in even “present day” China. How about it Ron– think you could do this in China now and not get a visit and a one way trip in a Van????

    • Troll: vot tak
    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @denk
  509. vot tak says:
    @Anonymous

    I never found zerohedge to be a useful source and pretty much ignore material based upon their articles. Much like with the rest of the zionazi-gay westrrn media psywar machine.

  510. romar says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Mr Roberts, on this site, Gilad Atzmon similarly indicated that doctors in Israel also realised – in hindsight – that coronavirus-type pneumonia had caused havoc there since December – which was then attributed to …. swine flu? (Israel, Corona and Abraham Wald – https://www.unz.com/gatzmon/israel-corona-and-abraham-wald/)
    On another point: Dr Tedros is Ethiopian, so the name that appears first is analogous to the surname in the West, and he should be addressed as Dr Tedros, unless the full name is required.
    Just as the current prime minister , Abiy Ahmed Ali, is addressed as “Prime Minister Abiy”, and the current president, Sahle-Work Zewde, is “President Sahle-Work.”

  511. anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:
    @Getaclue

    OK.

    Now …

    Can you (or anyone else) refute any of the contestable assertions in Mr. Roberts’ new timeline immediately preceding your comment?

  512. denk says:
    @Getaclue

    Are you trying to say the ChiComs have not been experimenting with this? That they have not released SARS

    Hey you fucking idiot,
    SARS1 was a race specific bio attack from FUKUS.

    The CCP would be derelict of its duty if it didnt commence research on SAR COV post 2003/

    The big question here…
    WTF is USA doing all these SAR COV weaponisation for ?

    Get a fucking clue, indeed…

    • Replies: @FB
  513. @Godfree Roberts

    For one minute – taking bio warfare out of the equation…. My question would be why is it that at Event 201 held in NY in Oct 2019 – where this almost exact type of outbreak was modeled – how can the US government be so unprepared??? It is actually sad…

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
  514. @Anonymous

    And his story was quickly taken out of the news. Yup he worked with the CDC and the DOD. They claim they didnt know for the past almost 10 years thathe ran a lab in China. I wonder how they will spin the charges…?

  515. @Anonymous

    In reality most people who have it dont have a clue. They think cold or the flu. Even right now – NY shows the most cases in the US simply because NY has performed the most tests. It is no question that it could have been floating arou d for months.

  516. @NPleeze

    If they had it and recovered, do they test positive?

    Depends how long the virus is still present, depends if it is the virus or the antibodies which are tested.

    The antibodies can be tested weeks if not months after the contact with the virus.

    What is “fucking amazing” is to think that 50% of the population is already immune.

    Oh well, if it would be the case (50%), it would mean that the virus was already present in Fall 2019 and NOT IMPORTED from China.

    Now only to look at the number of deaths in the coming weeks.

  517. @22pp22

    Go back to NBC where you belong.

  518. @Anonymous

    Humanity must thanks wholeheartedly China who was the first country to find that virus and to take measures to control it successfully. China demonstrated that its policy is a model to be followed in the way to control the epidemy. China cares not only about its population, but also of other populations by forwarding material and expertise. Exactly what the USA are unable to do or worse, don’t want to do.

    USA, Italy, and who knows which other country were unable to find out what this disease was, and took it for influenza (USA) or acute pneumonia syndrom (Italy).

    THANK YOU CHINA!

    Now have a look at these data:

    https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm

    23’000-59’000… what is that country which is unable to come with a better estimate?

    At the same time, deaths in France caused by influenza is 72 (yes, seventy-two).

    The USA do not care about their population. Because they are a ploutocratic oligarchy.

    • Replies: @Iris
  519. Question: where does the virus come from?

    From Brazil, and from a bat, stupid!

    Only look a the Events 201 scenario. It is all written in it, even that it will spread in China.

  520. FB says: • Website
    @denk

    BREAKING NEWS…the gun is starting to SMOKE…

    Genetic evidence is now EMERGING that the coronavirus was very likely MADE IN A LAB…

    Two days ago a respected bioresearcher at France’s Sorbonne Université dropped a highly informative overview of what specialists have learned from the recent gene studies carried out on the coronavirus now rampaging…[SARS COV2]

    Coronavirus origins: genome analysis suggests two viruses may have combined

    The bottom line is that this virus is almost certainly what is known by virus specialists as a CHIMERA…

    What is a ‘chimera’ virus…?

    It is a virus made out of a COMBINATION of two or more different viruses…

    This kind of work has been THE PRIMARY focus of bioweapons research…as ‘Old Microbiologist’ informed us in his article here last week, talking very specifically about ‘chimeric viruses’…Was Coronavirus a Biowarfare Attack Against China?

    In fact such a coronavirus based on SARS was already BUILT a few years ago in the US…

    …to examine the emergence potential (that is, the potential to infect humans) of circulating bat CoVs, we built a chimeric virus encoding a novel, zoonotic CoV spike protein—from the RsSHC014-CoV sequence that was isolated from Chinese horseshoe bats…

    A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence; Menachery et al, Nature Medicine, 2015

    The process of ‘building’ such viruses is done with cutting and pasting genes in A LAB…

    This is technically called ‘recombination’…

    A recombinant virus is a virus produced by recombining pieces of DNA using recombinant DNA technology.

    Rocombination can occur naturally…BUT it requires that the animal’s cell where this process occurs, be infected with BOTH viruses at the same time…

    The question now boils down to which is more likely…?

    I’m not a biologist nor have any specialist expertise in this field, so those that do are encouraged to chip in here…

    BUT…a quick search for terms like ‘do chimeric viruses occur naturally’‘does virus recombination occur naturally’…and ‘coronavirus recombination’ seems to point to an important DISTINCTION…

    While recombination does occur naturally and is a part of how a virus evolves…this does NOT create what is known as a chimeric virus…which is created either in vitro…[a test tube]…or in vivo [in a lab animal…]

    Rendering of coronavirus SARS COV2 with its distinctive protein spikes…a bioengineered weapon…?

    In the space of a few weeks, we have all learned a lot about COVID-19 and the virus that causes it: SARS-CoV-2. But there have also been a lot of rumours.

    And while the number of scientific articles on this virus is increasing, there are still many grey areas as to its origins.

    Says the noted French bioresearcher, who is obviously NOT convinced with the quick verdict from the widely-cited Nature paper of a couple of weeks ago that claims the virus could not have been bioeengineered…[on the laughable claim that ‘computer models’ would not have suggested this particular virus combination, particularly its distinctive protein spikes that make it so infectious…which I have already debunked upthread in my comments about the nature of computer models’ well known unreliability…]

  521. Iris says:

    Taiwan News (US ally in Asia): According to Israel source provided to the TV station, Wuhan Military Games in October 2019 was participated by US Military stayed in a hotel 500 yards from Wuhan Wet Market. 5 fallen ill evacuated by US and later died, it has appeared that none of the US military personnel were real competitors ranked 35th on medal counts behind N Korea. Suspect most were from US Germs Warfare Units in China for a special mission.

    Can anybody who speaks Mandarin please translate or indicate what is being said in this clip?

    • Replies: @denk
  522. Iris says:
    @Olivier1973

    At the same time, deaths in France caused by influenza is 72 (yes, seventy-two).

    Thanks, Olivier.

    A few people have their mind so badly damaged by the “law of the jungle” philosophy that they find it suspicious we cannot accept a low-mortality rate pandemic that will nonetheless disproportionately kill the elderly among us.

  523. denk says:
    @FB

    A layman applying the
    Ian Fleming Law of prob,
    Coincidence stop at two…..

    Combined with the five who test,

    Who’s the motive,

    Who benefits,

    Who’s the mean,

    Who’s been doing SAR COV weaponisation since 2005,

    Who’s has a long track record of malfeasance towards China,

    All points to You know who.

    With more independent expert opinion coming on, the smoking gun may soon be found indeed !

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Craig Nelsen
  524. Iris says:
    @FB

    Great find, FB, very interesting article by a Biology academic.

    In summary, the new SARS-CoV-2 virus has handily combined two characteristics that were never found together so far:
    – the lethality to humans of its close parent the SARS-CoV virus, already proven by the 2002 SARS pandemic.
    – a region within its S protein which is tailored to the ACE receptor binding domain that allows the virus to enter and infect human cells.

    If somebody wanted to create a super-efficient virus, this is exactly how they would have proceeded.

    It becomes very urgent and important to collaborate and trace the genetic trail of this new virus, as China has been asking for weeks.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
    , @FB
  525. @FB

    The Wuhan Institute of Virology produced a similar chimera, and the epidemic started in Wuhan, but there couldn’t possibly be any connection….too farfetched….must be Fort Detrick…..

  526. Iris says:
    @Bombercommand

    Why have the Chinese been calling for international collaboration to trace the genetic trail of the virus for months now?

    Who is refusing to share information?

    Who has until recently refused to even acknowledge they had Covid-19 patients?

    Who is using baseless accusations to further deteriorate state relationships so as serene scientific communication on the topic becomes impossible and no objective investigation can take place?

    • Agree: FB, Olivier1973
    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  527. @jalon

    Agree with your comment…. Though overall there is a misunderstanding on how viruses work. In reality we have no clue when covid-19 started. We only know it was first DIAGNOSED in Wuhan. Take out any nefarious act by anyome for a minute. Viruses are living organisms. Their goal is to find a way to reproduce and find new hosts to latch onto. In the same way governments experiment with them – viruses themselves do the same on their own. It is very much possible covid 19 was flying around the globe for months – but people died from “flu” or “pneumonia”. Most people who have it don’t die. Wuhan is a crowded city and like others noted China actually looks for new outbreaks since SARS. H1N1. was around many months before it got its name. Even look at something like HIV. There is no real “patient 0”. We only know HIV in its present form. There is no telling how it changed before it became what we know now. Humans arent as knowledgeable as we think we are.

  528. @Bombercommand

    Diagnosis started in Wuhan. You dont know where the virus made its jump to humans. Just as there are people now with it who have no clue unless they are tested for it and it comes back positive. Had the genome not been mapped in China and tests developed – you would have no clue. There are WAY MORE than 400k people in the world with it right now.

  529. FB says: • Website

    The Wuhan Institute of Virology produced a similar chimera…

    Link please…

    In fact, it was the Wuhan lab and scientists associated with it that have done the biggest legwork so far in quickly sequencing the COV2 genome…

    So they are doing the detective work…that kind of detective work [which is now giving us solid understanding of this virus’s origins] is entirely CONSISTENT with China’s stated need to FIGHT this virus…and entirely INCONSISTENT with the retarded idea that they unleashed it, either by accident or otherwise…

    PS…since you asked about my work back in fall 2018 where I debunked the official Russian narrative of a friendly fire incident from a Syrian SAM bringing down that Russian spyplane, you will have noticed that I never said what you claim…

    I simply proved that a Syrian S200 shot was impossible based on the radar data presented by the Russians, and the technical characteristics of the S200…

    Nowhere did I mention it was the French ship that fired the missile…in fact I said it was more likely that the missile could have been fired by one of the British Tornados or Eurofighters in the air at the time and based in Cyprus, a stone’s throw away…

    As ALWAYS…I presented this as an OPEN ENDED HYPOTHESIS…not a statement of fact that needs to be ‘backed up’…

  530. @Iris

    And no one seems to be able to answer why in Oct 2019 at Event 201 in NY they specifically simulated a coronavirus outbreak. They were even careful to put a disclaimer against conspiracy theories. Strange. You can watch the whole conference on YouTube. Check it out. They pinpointed everything that would happen. They “chose” the starting point as pig farms in South America. Everything else is almost exactly as they modelled.

    • Replies: @FB
  531. FB says: • Website
    @Iris

    Iris, I think your second point is more correct than the first…that the distinctive protein spikes of COV2 are what make it so infectious and easily spread…very dangerous…

    However, your first point I don’t think is correct…

    The original SARS virus from nearly 20 years ago, which also targeted China [quite possibly a US bioweapon]…was much more deadly than this version 2 [COV2]

    This was its Achilles Heel…it killed too much…hence burned itself out, infecting only 8,000 people globally, but killing 800…virologists will tell you that a virus needs to have a kind of ‘Goldilocks’ balance…not too deadly to kill itself off before it can spread widely, but also able to make people very sick and cause a lot of deaths…

    This virus seems to have the perfect ‘blend’…

    With the SARS virus, it’s no surprise that killing 10 percent of its host, it wasn’t able to establish itself as a pandemic virus on this planet.

    –Leading virologist Dennis Carroll,/a>

    • Thanks: Iris
  532. FB says: • Website
    @Bombercommand

    My above comment in response to ‘Buttbomber’…

  533. @FB

    Obviously you haven’t been paying attention. Go to the comment history of “eah”, he posted the “link” twice. To reject the possibility of an accidental release from the Wuhan facility requires child like acceptance of a long string of preposterous premises, a sure sign of error.

    • Replies: @