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The Ancient Ethnostate: Biopolitical Thought in Ancient Greece
Guillaume Durocher
Amazon Createspace, 2021

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This is an extended version of the foreword to The Ancient Ethnostate.

Guillaume Durocher has produced an authoritative, beautifully written, and even inspirational account of the ancient Greeks. Although relying on mainstream academic sources, he adds an evolutionary perspective that is sorely lacking in contemporary academia at a time when the ancient Greek civilization, like the Western canon in toto, has been subjected to intense criticism reflecting the values of the contemporary academic left. To get a flavor of the current state of classics scholarship, consider the following from the New York Times:

Long revered as the foundation of “Western civilization,” the field [of classics] was trying to shed its self-imposed reputation as an elitist subject overwhelmingly taught and studied by white men. Recently the effort had gained a new sense of urgency: Classics had been embraced by the far right, whose members held up the ancient Greeks and Romans as the originators of so-called white culture. Marchers in Charlottesville, Va., carried flags bearing a symbol of the Roman state; online reactionaries adopted classical pseudonyms; the white-supremacist website Stormfront displayed an image of the Parthenon alongside the tagline “Every month is white history month.” …

For several years, [Dan-el Padilla] has been speaking openly about the harm caused by practitioners of classics in the two millenniums since antiquity: the classical justifications of slavery, race science, colonialism, Nazism and other 20th-century fascisms. Classics was a discipline around which the modern Western university grew, and Padilla believes that it has sown racism through the entirety of higher education. Last summer, after Princeton decided to remove Woodrow Wilson’s name from its School of Public and International Affairs, Padilla was a co-author of an open letter that pushed the university to do more. “We call upon the university to amplify its commitment to Black people,” it read, “and to become, for the first time in its history, an anti-racist institution.” Surveying the damage done by people who lay claim to the classical tradition, Padilla argues, one can only conclude that classics has been instrumental to the invention of “whiteness” and its continued domination.

In recent years, like-minded classicists have come together to dispel harmful myths about antiquity. On social media and in journal articles and blog posts, they have clarified that contrary to right-wing propaganda, the Greeks and Romans did not consider themselves “white,” and their marble sculptures, whose pale flesh has been fetishized since the 18th century, would often have been painted in antiquity. They have noted that in fifth-century-B.C. Athens, which has been celebrated as the birthplace of democracy, participation in politics was restricted to male citizens; thousands of enslaved people worked and died in silver mines south of the city, and custom dictated that upper-class women could not leave the house unless they were veiled and accompanied by a male relative. They have shown that the concept of Western civilization emerged as a euphemism for “white civilization” in the writing of men like Lothrop Stoddard, a Klansman and eugenicist. Some classicists have come around to the idea that their discipline forms part of the scaffold of white supremacy — a traumatic process one described to me as “reverse red-pilling” — but they are also starting to see an opportunity in their position. Because classics played a role in constructing whiteness, they believed, perhaps the field also had a role to play in its dismantling.[1]Rachel Poser, “He Wants to Save Classics from Whiteness. Can the Field Survive?,” New York Times (February 2, 2011). https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/02/magazine/classics...s.html ; see also Donna Zuckerberg, Not All Dead White Men: Classics and Misogyny in the Digital Age (Harvard University Press, 2018).

Durocher’s treatment is a refreshing antidote to this contemporary academic orthodoxy. Unlike so many scholars, whose main concern is to score political points useful to the anti-White left and thereby improve their standing in the profession, he has attempted to present an accurate account of these writers and the world they were trying to understand and survive in. The phrase “so-called white culture” in the above quotation from Rachel Poser’s New York Times article is indicative of this mindset. Durocher does not shy away from discussing slavery, the relatively confined role of women, or the cruelty that Greeks could exhibit even toward their fellow Greeks. But he also emphasizes the relative freedom of the Greeks, their intellectual brilliance, and the ability of the two principal city-states, Athens and Sparta, to pull together to defeat a common foe and thereby save their people and culture from utter destruction.

The contemporary academic left has abandoned any attempt to understand the Greeks on their own terms in favor of comparing Western cultures (and typically only Western cultures) to what they see as timeless moral criteria—criteria that reflect the current sacralization of diversity, equity, and inclusion. But even the most cursory reflection makes it obvious that moral ideals such as valuing diversity, equity, and inclusion are not justified because of their value in establishing a society that can survive in a hostile world. They are valued as intrinsic goods, and societies that depart from these ideals are condemned as evil. Recently there was something of a stir when a video was released by the website of Russia Today, a television station linked to the Russian government, comparing ads for military service in Russia and the United States.[2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEnxmzqXJN8 Ads directed at Russians show determined, physically fit young men engaged in disciplined military units and difficult, dangerous activities under adverse conditions. On the other hand, the recruitment ad for the U.S. military features a woman who, although physically fit, dwells on her pride in participating in the marriage of her two “mothers.” The contrast couldn’t be more striking. The Russian military is seeking the best way to survive in a hostile world, while the American military is virtue-signaling its commitment to the gender dogmas of the left.

Durocher emphasizes that the Greeks lived in a very cruel world, a world where “the fate of the vanquished was often supremely grim: the men could be exterminated, the women and children enslaved as so much war booty. Our generation too often forgets that our political order exists by virtue of a succession of wars — from the revolutionary wars of the Enlightenment to the World Wars of the Twentieth Century — and it cannot be otherwise.” We in the contemporary West have a life of relative ease, wealth, and security that was unknown to the ancient Greeks who were threatened not only by other Greek poleis, but by foreign powers, particularly the aggressive and much more populous Persian Empire. In such an environment, there is no room for virtue signaling. Survival in a hostile, threatening world was the only worthwhile goal:

Before anything else, a good city-state was one with the qualities necessary to survive in the face of aggressive foreign powers. This was ensured by solidarity among the citizens, each being willing to fight and die beside the other. Hence the citizen was also a soldier-citizen.

Aristocratic Individualism. Ancient Greece was an Indo-European culture, and thus prized military virtues, heroism, and the quest for honor, fame, and glory. Homer “tells of a terrible war for sexual competition, for the heart of beautiful Helen, and its inevitable tragedies. But the maudlin self-pity and effeminacy of our time are unknown to Homer: if tragedy is inevitable in the human experience, the poet’s role is to give meaning and beauty to the ordeal, and to inspire men to struggle for a glorious destiny.” “Their way of life is one of ‘vital barbarism,’ having the values of ruthless conquerors, prizing loot, honor, and glory above all.” Achilles “prefers a brief but glorious life to one of lengthy obscurity.” “Quick, better to live or die, once and for all, than die by inches, slowly crushed to death – helpless against the hulls in the bloody press, by far inferior men!” (Iliad, 15.510). Trust was confined to people within one’s social circle. Strangers and foreigners could not be trusted: “As in the Iliad, in the Odyssey strangers and foreign lands are synonymous with uncertainty and violence. This is a world without mutual confidence. Even the gods do not trust in one another.”

This sense of heroic struggle in a hostile environment is central to the classical world of Greece and Rome, and was evident among the Germanic peoples who inherited the West after the fall of the Roman Empire. As Ricardo Duchesne notes, the Indo-European legacy is key to understanding the restless, aggressive, questing, innovative, “Faustian” soul of Europe. Indo-Europeans were a “uniquely aristocratic people dominated by emerging chieftains for whom fighting to gain prestige was the all-pervading ethos. This culture [is] interpreted as ‘the Western state of nature’ and as the primordial source of Western restlessness.”[3]Ricardo Duchesne, The Uniqueness of Western Civilization (Leiden: Brill, 2011), p. 51. Durocher expands on this beautifully:

This Aryan ethos is what so appealed to Nietzsche: a people not animated by pity or guilt, nor trying to achieve impossible or fictitious equality in an endlessly vain attempt to assuage feelings. Rather, Hellenic culture, driven by that aristocratic and competitive spirit, held up the ideal of being the best: the best athlete, the best warrior, the best poet, the best philosopher, or the most beautiful. This culture also held up the collective ideal of being the best as a whole society, for they understood that man as a species only flourishes as a community.

This competitive ethic so central to the West is fundamentally individualistic, not based on extended kinship. It is in strong contrast to the contemporary West where the main goal of far too many of its traditional peoples is to uphold moral principles and to feel guilt for differences in wealth and accomplishment. In individualist Western culture, reputation is paramount, and in the modern West, reputation revolves mainly around being an honest, morally upstanding, trustworthy person, with moral rectitude defined by media and academic elites hostile to the Western tradition. In my Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition I ascribe this fundamental shift in Western culture to the rise of the values of an egalitarian individualist ethic that originated among the northwestern European hunter-gatherers—an ethic that is in many ways the diametrical opposite of the Indo-European aristocratic tradition.[4]Kevin MacDonald, Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition: Evolutionary Origins, History, and Prospects for the Future (Seattle: CreateSpace, 2019). This new ethic began its rise to predominance with the English Civil War of the seventeenth century and remains most prominent in northwest Europe, particularly Scandinavian cultures.

The aristocratic individualism of the ancient Western world implies a hierarchy in which aristocrats have power over underlings (although there was the expectation of reciprocity), but there is egalitarianism among peers. “The kings … are not tyrants: they are expected to welcome legitimate criticism from their peers and even tolerate a good deal of backtalk.” In the Iliad, the Achaean army is made of several kings and is therefore fractious, with no one having absolute power over the rest. Decisions therefore require consensus and consultation. Aristocratic individualism is always threatened by what one might term a degenerate aristocracy—the ancient tyrants and early modern European monarchs kings who aspired to complete control. For example, King Louis XIV of France (reigned 1643-1715) had power over the nobility undreamed of in the Middle Ages while his legacy of absolute rule led ultimately to the French Revolution.

Herodotus notes that a common strategy for ruling elites was to form a distinct and solidary extended family by only marrying among themselves, for example by the ruling Bacchiadae clan of Corinth (Herodotus, 5.92). This also occurred in the European Middle Ages and later as elites severed ties with their wider kinship groups and married among themselves—likely a tendency for any aristocratic society.

But even apart from peers, there was an ideal of reciprocity within the hierarchy—a fundamental feature of Indo-European culture. As I noted in Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition:

Oath-bound contracts of reciprocal relationships were characteristic of [Proto-Indo-Europeans] and [Indo-Europeans] and this practice continued with the various I-E groups that invaded Europe. These contracts formed the basis of patron-client relationships based on reputation—leaders could expect loyal service from their followers, and followers could expect equitable rewards for their service to the leader. This is critical because these relationships are based on talent and accomplishment, not ethnicity (i.e., rewarding people on the basis of closeness of kinship) or despotic subservience (where followers are essentially unfree). (p. 34)

Such reciprocity is apparent in Homer’s world: “The Homeric ideal of kingship is one of familial solidarity, moderation, trust, piety, strength, and reciprocal duties between king and people, to the benefit of one another. Hierarchy and community are fundamentally necessary in Homer’s world. Followers require leadership and, indeed, servitude in a sense makes them foolish.”

Greek Collectivism: The Necessity of Social Cohesion

Given the exigencies of survival in a hostile world, Greek conceptions of the ideal society were firmly based on realistic assessments of what was necessary to survive and flourish. In my book Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition,[5]Ibid.
(Kevin MacDonald, Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition: Evolutionary Origins, History, and Prospects for the Future (Seattle: CreateSpace, 2019).)
I noted that the Puritan-descended intellectuals of the nineteenth century, like today’s academic and media left, were moral idealists, constructing ideal societies on the basis of universalist moral principles, such as abolitionist ideology based on the evil of enslaving Africans. The Greeks also had ideas on the ideal society, but they were not based on moral abstractions independent of survival value. And among those values, social cohesion was paramount. Because of its inherent individualism and the practical necessity of social cohesion, Western culture has always been a balance between its individualism and some form of social glue that binds people together to achieve common interests, including forms of social control that impinge on the self-interest of at least some individuals, but also providing citizens with a stake in the system.

There is thus a major contrast between the Greeks and a slave-type society such as the Persian Empire—a contrast the Greeks were well aware of. For example, Aristotle wrote “these barbarian peoples are more servile in character than Greeks (as the peoples of Asia are more servile than those of Europe); and they therefore tolerate despotic rule without any complaint” (Politics, 1285a16). The social cohesion of the West has typically resulted from all citizens having a stake in the system. In the world of Homer, kings understood that they would benefit if the citizens are willing to fight and die for their homeland: “The Odyssey reaffirms the Iliad’s tragic message: that good order and the community can only be guaranteed by the willingness to fight and die for family and fatherland.” And Herodotus noted that Athens became a superior military power after getting rid of tyrants and developing a citizenry with a stake in the system: “while they were under an oppressive regime they fought below their best because they were working for a master, whereas as free men each individual wanted to achieve something for himself” (Herodotus, 5.78).

My interest in understanding the West has always revolved around kinship, marriage, and the family as bedrock institutions amenable to an evolutionary analysis. An important aspect of social cohesion in the West has been institutions that result in relative sexual egalitarianism among males, in contrast to the common practice (e.g., in classical China, and the Middle East, including Greece’s main foreign enemy, the Persian Empire) where wealthy, powerful males maintained large harems, while many men were unable to procreate. In ancient Greece, the importance of social cohesion can be seen in Solon’s laws on marriage (early sixth century BC). Solon’s laws had a strongly egalitarian thrust, and indeed, the purpose of his laws was to “resolve problems of deep-seated social unrest involving the aristocratic monopoly on political power and landholding practices under which the ‘many were becoming enslaved to the few.’”[6]Susan Lape, “Solon and the institution of ‘democratic’ family form. Classical Journal 98.2 (2002–2003), pp. 117-139, p. 117. As Durocher notes, Solon “abolished existing private and public debts and banned usurious loans for which the penalty for defaulting was enslavement. In his poems, Solon condemns the nation-shattering effects of usury and poverty, which lead unfree citizens to wander the world, homeless.”

The concern therefore was that such practices were leading to a lack of social cohesion—with people not believing they had a stake in the system. As in the case of the medieval Church, the focus of Solon’s laws on marriage was to rein in the power of the aristocracy by limiting the benefits to be gained by extra-marital sexual relationships. In Solon’s laws, legitimate children with the possibility of inheritance were the product of two Athenian citizens, a policy approved by popular vote in 451 B.C. As Pericles noted, bastards were to be “excluded from both the responsibilities and privileges of membership in the public household” (in Patterson, 2001, 1378). Given that wealthy males are in the best position to father extramarital children and provide for multiple sexual partners, it’s critical that Solon’s legislation (like the Church’s policies in the Middle Ages) was explicitly aimed at creating sexual egalitarianism among men—giving all male citizens a stake in the system.

Greek thinkers and lawgivers thus had no compunctions about reining in individual self-interest in the interest of the common good. For example, “Aristotle’s discussion of population policy and eugenics reflects the view which the Greeks took for granted: that the biological reproduction and quality of the citizenry was a fundamental matter of public interest. The citizen had a duty to act and the lawmaker to regulate by whatever means necessary to achieve these goals.” The public interest in achieving a society able to withstand the hostile forces arrayed against it was paramount, not the interests of any particular person or segment of the society, including the wealthy.

Greek cultures therefore often had strong social controls aimed at creating cohesive, powerful groups where cohesion was maintained by regulating individual behavior, effectively making them group evolutionary strategies. These cultures certainly did not eradicate individual self-interest, but they regulated and channeled it in such a manner that the group as a whole benefited. For example, in constructing an ideal society, Aristotle rejected a mindless libertarianism in favor of a system that had concern for the good of the society as a whole. Anything that interfered with social cohesion or any other feature that contributed to an adaptive culture had to be dealt with—by whatever means necessary.

Solon’s laws on marriage and inheritance would therefore have been analyzed by Aristotle for their effect on social cohesion. Egalitarianism, like everything else, had to be subjected to the criterion of what was best for the community as a whole, and that meant that societies should be ethnically homogeneous and led by the best people. Aristotle’s arguments for moderate democracy are not founded on abstract “rights” or a moral vision, ideas that have dominated Western thinking since the Enlightenment, “but rather, are based on what benefits the community as a whole. … Aristotle’s citizens rule and are ruled in turn, this reciprocity fostering a spirit of friendship between social classes.” “Aristotle is clear … that private property is not a right enabling individuals to be as capricious and selfish as they please, but merely a sensible way of producing wealth, whose aim must ultimately be the well-being of the community.” The social cohesion needed in a hostile world was a fundamental value that trumped any concern for individual rights. Durocher:

Aristotle’s unabashed ethics are typically Hellenic: there is no egalitarian consolation for the ugly and the misbegotten, there is no pretense that all human beings can be happy and actualized. Rather, Aristotle, like the Greeks in general, celebrates excellence. … This vision is in fact unabashedly communitarian and aristocratic: Firstly, the human species cannot flourish and fulfill its natural role unless it survives and reproduces itself in the right conditions; secondly, the society must be organized so as to grant the intellectually-gifted and culturally-educated minority the leisure to exercise their reason.

Sparta was even more egalitarian among the Spartiates, giving the citizens a stake in the system, but with an ethic that rejected effeminacy and weakness and in which individuals strived to achieve excellence in military skills. Also likely promoting social cohesion was that the Helot slave class was an outgroup that Spartans understood needed to be rigorously controlled, setting up a very robust ingroup-outgroup psychology that promoted social cohesion and high positive regard for the ingroup along with disparagement and even abuse of the outgroup. Spartan social cohesion is legendary and likely contributed to the intense solidarity needed to defeat the far more numerous Persian Empire:

By their triumph in the Persian Wars, the Greeks preserved their sovereignty and identity, setting the stage for the Golden Age of Athenian power and philosophy. The Greeks triumphed because of the winning combination of their culture of civic freedom and solidarity, and the successful alliance between Athens and Sparta, which required both cities to adopt a conciliatory attitude. Herodotus’s Histories are a poignant commemoration of the fragility and value of Greek unity.

The results have resounded down the ages:

In the Persian Wars, the Greeks showed that a small and scattered nation could, with luck, skill, and determination, triumph even over the greatest empire of the day. This example can still inspire us today and discredit all defeatism. In their victory, the Greeks were able to pass down an enormous political, cultural, and scientific heritage to generations ever since. No wonder John Stuart Mill could claim: “The Battle of Marathon, even as an event in British history, is more important than the Battle of Hastings.”

This emphasis on giving individuals a stake in the system as a mechanism for social cohesion thus has strong roots in Western culture. The political system of the Roman Republic was far from democratic, but it was also far from a narrow oligarchy, and the representation and power of the lower classes gradually increased throughout the Republic (e.g., with the office of tribune of the plebs). The highest offices, consuls and praetors with military and judicial functions, were elected by the comitia centuriata, a convocation of the military, divided into centuries, where people with property had the majority of the vote (people were assigned to a century depending on five classes of property ownership, with the lower classes voting after the wealthy; the election was typically decided before the poorer centuries could vote).

A deep concern with social cohesion enabled by having a stake in the system was also apparent in the Germanic world after the fall of the Roman Empire. Although unquestionably hierarchical, early medieval European societies had a strong sense that cultures ought to build a sense of social cohesion on the basis of reciprocity, so that, with the exception of slaves, even humble members near the bottom of the social hierarchy had a stake in the system. The ideal (and the considerable reality) is what Spanish historian Américo Castro labeled “hierarchic harmony.”[7]Américo Castro, The Structure of Spanish History, trans. Edmund L. King (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1954), p. 497; see also Américo Castro, The Spaniards: An Introduction to Their History, trans. Willard F. King and Selma Margaretten (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1971).

For example, the Visigothic Code promulgated by seventh-century King Chindasuinth of Spain illustrates the desire for a non-despotic government and for social cohesion that results from taking account of the interests of everyone (except slaves). Regarding despotism:

It should be required that [the king] make diligent inquiry as to the soundness of his opinions. Then, it should be evident that he has acted not for private gain but for the benefit of the people; so that it may conclusively appear that the law has not been made for any private or personal advantage, but for the protection and profit of the whole body of citizens. (Title I, II)[8]The Visigothic Code (Forum judicum), trans. S. P. Scott (Boston, MA: Boston Book Company, 1910; online version: The Library of Iberian Resources Online, unpaginated).

http://libro.uca.edu/vcode/visigoths.htm

Thus the concern with social cohesion is a strong current in Western history.

Ethnic Diversity and Lack of Social Cohesion.

Aristotle was well aware that extreme individualism may benefit some individuals who gain when a culture discourages common identities. I recall being puzzled when doing research on the Frankfurt School that intellectuals who had been steeped in classical Marxism had developed an ideology that prized individualism—jettisoning ethnic and religious identities in favor of self-actualization and acceptance of differences.

In the end the ideology of the Frankfurt School may be described as a form of radical individualism that nevertheless despised capitalism—an individualism in which all forms of gentile collectivism are condemned as an indication of social or individual pathology. … The prescription for gentile society is radical individualism and the acceptance of pluralism. People have an inherent right to be different from others and to be accepted by others as different. Indeed, to become differentiated from others is to achieve the highest level of humanity. The result is that “no party and no movement, neither the Old Left nor the New, indeed no collectivity of any sort was on the side of truth. . . . [T]he residue of the forces of true change was located in the critical individual alone.”[9]Kevin MacDonald, The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political movements (Bloomington, IN: Authorhouse, 2002; originally published: Westport, CT: Praeger, 1998), p. 165, quoting J. B. Maier, “Contribution to a critique of Critical Theory,” in Foundations of the Frankfurt School of Social Research, ed. J. Marcus & Z. Tar (New Brunswick, NJ: 1984, Transaction Books).

Aristotle understood this logic, noting that both extreme democrats and tyrants encouraged the mixing of peoples and losing old identities and loyalties. Aristotle:

Other measures which are also useful in constructing this last and most extreme type of democracy are measures like those introduced by Cleisthenes at Athens, when he sought to advance the cause of democracy, or those which were taken by the founders of [the] popular government at Cyrene. A number of new tribes and clans should be instituted by the side of the old; private cults should be reduced in number and conducted at common centers; and every contrivance should be employed to make all the citizens mix, as much as they possibly can, and to break down their old loyalties. All the measures adopted by tyrants may equally be regarded as congenial to democracy. We may cite as examples the license allowed to slaves (which, up to a point, may be advantageous as well as congenial), the license permitted to women and children, and the policy of conniving at the practice of “living as you like.” There is much to assist a constitution of this sort, for most people find more pleasure in living without discipline than they find in a life of temperance. (Politics, 1319b19)

The ancient Greeks were also aware that ethnic diversity leads to conflict and lack of common identity. As Aristotle noted, “Heterogeneity of stocks may lead to faction – at any rate until they have had time to assimilate. A city cannot be constituted from any chance collection of people, or in any chance period of time. Most of the cities which have admitted settlers, either at the time of their foundation or later, have been troubled by faction.” Realizing this, tyrants often took advantage of this evolutionary reality by importing people in order to undermine the solidarity of the people they ruled over.

It’s interesting in this regard that such efforts to undermine the homogeneity of populations continue in the contemporary West. In the wake of World War II, the activist Jewish community, in part inspired by the writings of the Frankfurt School,[10]Ibid., Ch. 5.
(Kevin MacDonald, The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political movements (Bloomington, IN: Authorhouse, 2002; originally published: Westport, CT: Praeger, 1998), p. 165, quoting J. B. Maier, “Contribution to a critique of Critical Theory,” in Foundations of the Frankfurt School of Social Research, ed. J. Marcus & Z. Tar (New Brunswick, NJ: 1984, Transaction Books).)
made a major push to open up immigration of Western countries to all the peoples of the world, their motive being a fear of ethnically homogeneous White populations of the type that had turned against Jews in Germany after 1933.[11]Ibid., Ch. 7.
(Kevin MacDonald, The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political movements (Bloomington, IN: Authorhouse, 2002; originally published: Westport, CT: Praeger, 1998), p. 165, quoting J. B. Maier, “Contribution to a critique of Critical Theory,” in Foundations of the Frankfurt School of Social Research, ed. J. Marcus & Z. Tar (New Brunswick, NJ: 1984, Transaction Books).)
Corroborating this assessment, historian Otis Graham notes that the Jewish lobby on immigration “was aimed not just at open doors for Jews, but also for a diversification of the immigration stream sufficient to eliminate the majority status of western European so that a fascist regime in America would be more unlikely.”[12]Otis Graham (2004). Unguarded Gates: A History of American’s Immigration Crisis. (Rowman & Littlefield), p. 80. The motivating role of fear and insecurity on the part of the activist Jewish community thus differed from other groups and individuals promoting an end to the national origins provisions of the 1924 and 1952 laws which dramatically lowered immigration and restricted immigration to people largely from northwestern Europe. These same intellectuals and activists have also pathologized any sense of White identity or sense of White interests to the point that it’s common for White liberals to have negative attitudes about White people.

 

Greek Race Realism. The ancient Greeks were vitally concerned with leaving descendants and they understood that heredity was important in shaping individuals—a view that is obviously adaptive in an evolutionary sense. Aristotle writes that “good birth, for a people and a state, is to be indigenous or ancient and to have distinguished founders with many descendants distinguished in matters that excite envy” (Rhetoric, 1.5). The Greeks also had a sense that they shared a common ethnicity and culture with other Greeks, resulting in common expressions of the need for ethnic solidarity, particularly in the wars with Persia. Durocher notes that “One cannot exaggerate the pervasiveness of the rhetoric of kinship and pan-Hellenic identity throughout the conflict.”

The Greeks were thus proud of their lineage and had a sense of common kinship. However, it was not the sort of extensive kinship that is typical of so much of the rest of the world. There was an individualist core to Greek culture stemming from its Indo-European roots, resulting in the famously fractious Greek culture, with wars between Greek city-states. Even during the Persian wars, several Greek city-states failed to join the coalition against Persia, and “the sentimental love for Hellas was often overridden by personal or political interests. Prominent Greek leaders and cities frequently collaborated with the Persians, either because the alternative was oblivion or simply for profit.”

As in individualist cultures generally, lineage is confined to close relatives, and there are no corporate kinship-based groups that own property or where brothers live together in common households: “Despite typically vague modern notions of a primitive clan-based society as the predecessor to the historical society of the polis, early Greek society seems securely rooted in individual households—and in the relationships focused on and extending from those households.[13]C.B. Patterson, The Family in Greek History (Cambridge, MA: 2001, Harvard University Press), pp. 46–47.

And congruent with contemporary behavior genetic research, there was an expectation that children would inherit the traits of parents: King Menelaus is impressed by Odysseus’s son Telemachus: Surely you two have not shamed your parentage; you belong to the race of heaven-protected and sceptered kings; no lesser parents could have such sons” (4.35-122). Menelaus later adds: “What you say, dear child, is proof of the good stock you come from” (4.549-643).

Reflecting the common Greek view that it was necessary to regulate society in order to achieve adaptive goals of the city as a whole, the Greeks accepted the idea that individual behavior needed to be regulated in the common interest, resulting in eugenic proposals by philosophers and, in the case of Sparta at least, practices such as killing weak infants. Both Plato and Aristotle accepted eugenics as an aspect of public policy. Plato was particularly enthusiastic about eugenics—Durocher labels it “an obsession,” and, like many evolutionists, such as Sir Francis Galton, he was much impressed by animal breeding as a paradigm for eugenic policies for humans. For Plato, eugenics was part of a broader group evolutionary strategy he proposed for the Greeks. As Durocher notes, Plato advocated

a great reform of convention grounded in reason and expertise, to transform Greece into a patchwork of enlightened, non-grasping city-states, cultivating themselves intellectually and culturally, reproducing themselves in perpetuity through systematic and eugenic population policies, avoiding fratricidal war and imperialism among themselves, and working together against the barbarians, under the leadership of the best city-states. Taken together, I dare say we can speak of a Platonic Group Evolutionary Strategy for Greece.

It’s worth noting in this context that the basic premises of eugenics are well-grounded in evolutionary and genetic science and were broadly accepted in Western culture, even among progressives, from the late nineteenth century until after World War II when the entire field became tarred by association with National Socialism. It is thus part of the broad transformation among Western intellectuals away from thinking in terms of racial differences and the genetic basis of individual differences—to the point that it’s currently fashionable to deny the reality of race and any suggestion that race differences in socially important traits such as intelligence could possibly be influenced genetically. As Durocher notes, “Race is, especially in geographically contiguous land masses, typically a clinal phenomenon, with gradual change in genetic characteristics (i.e., allele frequencies) as one moves, for instance, from northern Europe to central Africa.” However, in the contemporary West, intellectual and cultural elites have sought “to suppress cultural chauvinism and ethnic solidarity, for example by glorifying foreign cultures and shaming native ethnic pride. Such nations are unlikely to survive long however.” So true.

Scientific Think as Characteristic of the West

In his discussion of Herodotus, Durocher describes the “beginnings of scientific thought concerning both nature and society, for instance with plausible speculations about the formation of the Nile Delta, micro-climates, and the effect of the natural environment on human biology and culture.” Analogical thinking is fundamental to science (e.g., Christiaan Huygens’s use of light and sound to support his wave theory of light; Darwin’s analogy between artificial selection and natural selection—with obvious implications for eugenics; the mind as a blank slate or computer). Scientific thinking is thus apparent in the eugenic recommendations noted by Greek philosophers based, as they were, on analogies with animal breeding.

Such scientific thinking is a unique characteristic of Western individualist culture. In his book The WEIRDest People in the World, Joseph Henrich describes “WEIRD psychology”—i.e., the psychology of Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic people. A major point is that the psychology of Western peoples is unique in the context of the rest of the world: “highly individualistic, self-obsessed, control-oriented, nonconformist, and analytical. … When reasoning WEIRD people tend to look for universal categories and rules with which to organize the world.” (21)

Henrich notes that people from cultures with intensive kinship are more prone to holistic thinking that takes into account contexts and relationships, whereas Westerners are more prone to analytic thinking in which background information and context are ignored, leading ultimately to universal laws of nature and formal logic. I agree with this,[14]MacDonald, Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition, 112–113. but, while Henrich argues that analytical thinking began as a result of the policies on marriage enforced by the medieval Church, this style of thinking can clearly be found among the ancient Greeks. Consider Aristotle’s logic, a masterpiece of field independence and ignoring context, in which logical relationships can be deduced from the purely formal properties of sentences (e.g., All x’s are y; this is an x; therefore, this is a y); indeed, in Prior Analytics Aristotle used the first three letters of the Greek alphabet as placeholders instead of concrete examples. Or consider Euclidean geometry, in which theorems could be deduced from a small set of self-evident axioms and in which the axioms themselves were based on decontextualized figures, such as perfect circles and triangles, and infinite straight lines. Despite its decontextualized nature, the Euclidean system has had huge applications in the real world and dominated thinking in geometry in the West until the twentieth century.

Ancient Greece was an Indo-European-derived culture (Individualism, Ch. 2) and, beginning in the Greco-Roman world of antiquity, logical argument and competitive disputation have been far more characteristic of Western cultures than any other culture area. As Duchesne notes, “the ultimate basis of Greek civic and cultural life was the aristocratic ethos of individualism and competitive conflict which pervaded [Indo-European] culture. … There were no Possessors of the Way in aristocratic Greece; no Chinese Sages decorously deferential to their superiors and expecting appropriate deference from their inferiors. The search for the truth was a free-for-all with each philosopher competing for intellectual prestige in a polemical tone that sought to discredit the theories of others while promoting one’s own.”[15]Duchesne, The Uniqueness of Western Civilization, 452,

In such a context, rational, decontextualized arguments that appeal to disinterested observers and are subject to refutation win out. They do not depend on group discipline or group interests for their effectiveness because in Western cultures, the groups are permeable and defections based on individual beliefs are far more the norm than in other cultures. As Duchesne notes, although the Chinese made many practical discoveries, they never developed the idea of a rational, orderly universe guided by universal laws comprehensible to humans. Nor did they ever develop a “deductive method of rigorous demonstration according to which a conclusion, a theorem, was proven by reasoning from a series of self-evident axioms,”[16]Ibid.
(Duchesne, The Uniqueness of Western Civilization, 452,)
as seen in Aristotle’s Prior Analytics. Indeed, I can’t resist noting the intelligence and creativity that went into creating the incredibly intricate Antikythera Mechanism designed by an unknown Greek (or Greeks). Dated to around 150–100 B.C. and “technically more complex than any known device for at least a millennium afterwards,” it was able to predict eclipses and planetary motions decades in advance.[17]S. Freeth, et al. (2006). Decoding the ancient Greek astronomical calculator known as the Antikythera Mechanism . Nature 444: 587-591, 587. Western scientific and technological creativity did not begin after the influence of Christianity, the Renaissance, or the Industrial Revolution.

Schematic of the Antikythera Mechanism
Schematic of the Antikythera Mechanism

As Durocher notes, “The fruits of Hellenic civilization are all around us, down to our very vocabulary.”

Conclusion

The Ancient Ethnostate should be at the top of everyone’s reading for those interested in understanding Western origins and the uniqueness of the West. It is also an inspiring work for those of us who seek to reinvigorate the West as a unique biocultural entity. The contemporary West, burdened by loss of confidence and moral and spiritual decay, cannot be redeemed by a fresh influx of ethnically Western barbarians as happened with the collapse of the Roman Empire and the rise of Germanic Europe. There are no more such peoples waiting in the wings to revive our ancient civilization.

ORDER IT NOW

Reinvigoration must come from within, but now it must do so in the context of massive immigration of non-Western peoples who are addicted to identity politics and are proving to be unwilling and likely unable to continue the Western traditions of individualism and all that that implies in terms of representative, non-despotic government, freedom of speech and association, and scientific inquiry. Indeed, we are seeing increasing hatred toward the people and culture of the West that is now well entrenched among Western elites and eagerly accepted by many of the non-Western peoples who have been imported into Western nations, many with historical grudges against the West. It will be a long, arduous road back. The Ancient Ethnostate contains roadmaps for the type of society that we should seek to establish.

Notes

[1] Rachel Poser, “He Wants to Save Classics from Whiteness. Can the Field Survive?,” New York Times (February 2, 2011). https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/02/magazine/classics-greece-rome-whiteness.html ; see also Donna Zuckerberg, Not All Dead White Men: Classics and Misogyny in the Digital Age (Harvard University Press, 2018).

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEnxmzqXJN8

[3] Ricardo Duchesne, The Uniqueness of Western Civilization (Leiden: Brill, 2011), p. 51.

[4] Kevin MacDonald, Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition: Evolutionary Origins, History, and Prospects for the Future (Seattle: CreateSpace, 2019).

[5] Ibid.

[6] Susan Lape, “Solon and the institution of ‘democratic’ family form. Classical Journal 98.2 (2002–2003), pp. 117-139, p. 117.

[7] Américo Castro, The Structure of Spanish History, trans. Edmund L. King (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1954), p. 497; see also Américo Castro, The Spaniards: An Introduction to Their History, trans. Willard F. King and Selma Margaretten (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1971).

[8] The Visigothic Code (Forum judicum), trans. S. P. Scott (Boston, MA: Boston Book Company, 1910; online version: The Library of Iberian Resources Online, unpaginated).

http://libro.uca.edu/vcode/visigoths.htm

[9] Kevin MacDonald, The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political movements (Bloomington, IN: Authorhouse, 2002; originally published: Westport, CT: Praeger, 1998), p. 165, quoting J. B. Maier, “Contribution to a critique of Critical Theory,” in Foundations of the Frankfurt School of Social Research, ed. J. Marcus & Z. Tar (New Brunswick, NJ: 1984, Transaction Books).

[10] Ibid., Ch. 5.

[11] Ibid., Ch. 7.

[12] Otis Graham (2004). Unguarded Gates: A History of American’s Immigration Crisis. (Rowman & Littlefield), p. 80.

[13] C.B. Patterson, The Family in Greek History (Cambridge, MA: 2001, Harvard University Press), pp. 46–47.

[14] MacDonald, Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition, 112–113.

[15] Duchesne, The Uniqueness of Western Civilization, 452,

[16] Ibid.

[17] S. Freeth, et al. (2006). Decoding the ancient Greek astronomical calculator known as the Antikythera Mechanism . Nature 444: 587-591, 587.

(Republished from The Occidental Observer by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. anonymous[324] • Disclaimer says:

    Big error above regarding the Greek-Persian wars. MacDonald writes of

    a slave-type society such as the Persian Empire

    Very wrong! It is the Graeco-Roman West which had the slavery cultures. Ancient Persia and India were anti-slave, more advanced and spiritual and humane in many ways. It’s a tragedy that essentially anti-slave Persian and Zoroastrian cultures, were defeated by slave-owning Greeks and eventually pro-slavery Islam, the Western-Judaic-Christian-Islamic slavery mentality still poisoning the world.

    It is too-little recalled that Persia 2500 years ago, gave us the world’s ‘first human rights document’, the Cyrus cylinder in the picture below … Cyrus sought to grant freedom of religion and an end to slavery throughout his empire. Some forms of effective Persian slavery existed despite the overall framework – including voluntary work-bondage in exchange for food and care, often cancellable by the servant – but it was not full-blown, legally-enshrined Graeco-Roman-Judaic slavery.

    As well, slavery was not a major part of ancient India, and apparently its caste system involved much more mobility than the modern one, with no ‘untouchables’ of a degraded order … Kingdoms of ancient India as well became the first nations to abolish the death penalty, some time approaching 2000 years ago … Here’s the Cyrus Cylinder, purloined for the British Museum as such things often were

  2. Not sure what to think about this overall, but the constant back-reading of “individualism” into cultures such as those of Ancient Greece or the German tribes of the Roman Era or medieval Europeans strikes me as ahistorical and anachronistic. In all those cultures, the most important thing about you was what group you belonged to. True “individualism” is, I submit, rare, and historically late (perhaps the settlement of the American West).

    • Replies: @René Fries
    , @Dumbo
  3. The contemporary West, burdened by loss of confidence and moral and spiritual decay

    Balzac had written that “enfin, quand l’Europe ne sera plus qu’un troupeau d’hommes sans consistance parce qu’elle sera sans chefs, elle sera dévorée par de grossiers conquérants / finally, when Europe will be nothing but a herd of men without consistence because it will be without leaders, it will be swallowed by uncouth conquerors” (in La confidence des Ruggieri).

    There are no leaders in the west, only criminals: “THE CRIMINAL CONDUCT OF OUR LEADERS HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN BLOOD – OUR BLOOD”, https://richardsonpost.com/howellwoltz/24470/the-stage-is-now-set-for-prosecutions-to-begin/

  4. @Mackerel Sky

    True “individualism” is, I submit, rare

    it was and is and continues to be, more today than in the ages past

    and historically late

    no. Have you read Blumenberg’s Die Legitimität der Neuzeit? there you can find it all.

    • Replies: @René Fries
  5. Bartolo says:

    I can only recommend The Ancient Ethnostate, by Guillaume Durocher . DUROCHER has a very deep knowledge of Ancient Greek thought and this book is a treat. It’s as insightful as it is entertaining, a very rare combination for intellectually rigorous books. It’s full of very well-chosen quotes from the Ancients that shed light on the most important questions of our time. If you want to know, for instance, what Aristotle had to say about immigration, diversity and power, this is you book. You’ll be surprised!

    • Agree: René Fries
    • Replies: @René Fries
  6. @anonymous

    a slave-type society such as the Persian Empire must not necessarily be a slave-holder society

    Individualism never was highly prized in Eastern cultures; on the India subcontinent compliance with the rites (every one of them) was paramount (Le Veda, 2 vol., Marabout Université, Paris 1967), and if one must accept that “Islam” was a catastrophe in Persia (as everywhere else), one may compare the scientific advances made in Greece/Europe with those made elsewhere. Besides, it is a fact too little known that “…der Inkarnationsgedanke war – gleichgültig dass das nicht intendiert sein konnte – eine unendliche Bestärkung der menschlichen Selbstachtung / the concept of incarnation was — irrespective of the fact that this could not be intended — an infinite reinforcement of the human self-respect” (Hans Blumenberg, Die Legitimität der Neuzeit, suhrkamp taschenbuch wissenschaft 1268, FFM 1999, p. 699). The said reinforcement, associated with the Greek/Roman/Germanic base talked of in the article, precisely is what all other cultures lacked and apparently, continue to lack.

    • Replies: @SomeoneInAsia
  7. @Bartolo

    You’ll be surprised!

    – not me, La Politique, Librairie philosophique J. Vrin, Paris 1989 and Ethique à Nicomaque, Garnier Flammarion, Paris 1965 are relevant here

  8. As Aristotle noted, “Heterogeneity of stocks may lead to faction – at any rate until they have had time to assimilate. A city cannot be constituted from any chance collection of people, or in any chance period of time. Most of the cities which have admitted settlers, either at the time of their foundation or later, have been troubled by faction.”

    Have Aristotle and Plato been canceled yet? If not it must surely only be a matter of time and inertia.

    I imagine thinking like this was a major influence on the early American Republic when its fathers instituted the Naturalization Act of 1790. If one reads their writings what immediately stands out is the Greek and Roman influence on their thought. Even in the time of Napoleon Cleon and Sulla seem to get mentioned more often than the Emperor himself.

    It is amazing how much of what passes for politics in more recent generations is about reinventing the wheel on issues where even people thousands of years ago had not only considered the issues carefully. But often arrived at better answers too than our current oracles.

    Thank you Dr. MacDonald, for bringing Durocher’s book to our attention. It looks very interesting.

    • Agree: René Fries
    • Thanks: Mike Tre
    • Replies: @JackOH
  9. You can’t make this stuff up or ycmtsu

    • Replies: @Bubba
  10. Ancient Greece was an Indo-European-derived culture

    The problem are the ancient sources which deny it. The stereotypical classicist is repulsed by any connection to Ancient Egypt which was a mixed people founded not on skin color but of values as Isokrates also declared about Ancient Greece!

    RFK liked Aeschylus and on a slab at his graveside he is quoted:

    ‘Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.’”

    Aeschylus is thought by some to have been the writer of the first play but strictly speaking this is not so since the passion play of Osiris, the sacred drama of his death and resurrection, was played out annually in Ancient Egypt in the previous millennium. Aeschylus has been described as xenophobic yet he acknowledges that the earliest colonizers which gave rise to his beloved Greece came not only from Egypt but were black as well!

    Famously Egyptologists and Classicists keep to their own territory and I do not know much in the way of modern scholarship that dares to cross the divide. I made several posts on Unz relating to Hyksos, Jews and the Exodus not realizing until yesterday that Hekatious of Abdera had described the same linkage in the 4th century BC.

    Anyhow the puzzlement of Aeschylus of how refugees, indeed “barbarians”, from Egypt (i.e. the ancestors of the Jews, the Hyksos) could become rulers without a battle being fought can be answered by any number of Americans who have their eyes opened regarding the destruction of the West.

    I would suggest that the “blacks” of Aeschylus was a distorted memory of the Hyksos “refugees” who had finally been booted out of Egypt after biting the hand that fed them and whom the Jewish historian
    Josephus recognized as his ancestors also comprised Nubians. This is supported by a text from the New Kingdom in Ancient Egypt which describes the Nubians as being confederates of the Hyksos (a recently excavated burial pit in the Hyksos capital Avaris lends support to this).

    In a later period the blacks of Kush would restore unity in Ancient Egypt and were noted for piety and their antiquarianism – upholding conservative values and traditions. BLM are a demonic joke compared to them but like the Nubians of old they are being used by the ancestors of the Jews.

    I think it is far too late but here is what Hekatious of Abdera noted:

    the natives of the land [Egypt] surmised that unless they removed the foreigners [Hyksos/Jews], their troubles would never be resolved. At once, therefore, the aliens were driven from the country, and the most outstanding and active among them banded together and, as some say, were cast ashore in Greece and certain other regions; their leaders were notable men, chief among them being Danaus and Cadmus. But the greater number were driven into what is now called Judaea, which is not far distant from Egypt and was at that time utterly uninhabited. 3. The colony was headed by a man called Moses,

    The conflict between the “outstanding” and “barbarian” of Hekatious is understood to be a distorted memory of the Hyksos (barbarians) who fled to Greece and the “outstanding” being the evictors of the Hyksos who stopped the human sacrifices taking place in Anu (Heliopolos) after the reconquest.

  11. @Jack McArthur

    The conflict between the “outstanding” and “barbarian” of Hekatious is understood to be a distorted memory of the Hyksos (barbarians) who fled to Greece and the “outstanding” being the evictors of the Hyksos who stopped the human sacrifices taking place in Anu (Heliopolos) after the reconquest.

    I should add that the “outstanding” family who evicted the Hyksos after they had infiltrated and abused the charity given them would quickly spread their influence to the Aegean and the Mother of the King who evicted the Hyksos became known as the Lady of the Aegean. All the adulatory texts about Ancient Egypt and its civilizing influence from Greece relates to this era and not the Hyksos albeit the stain is still there in the cruelty of the Ancient Greeks and the Semites.

  12. @Jack McArthur

    I have the 8 books (5473 pages) published by Hans Schiler Verlag, Berlin under a collection named “Inârah” (http://inarah.net/ ) initiated and supervised by the Universität des Saarlandes/prof. K.-H. Ohlig. These books show in detail that “the traditional account of Muhammad, the Qur’an, and the emergence of Islam actually have little or nothing in common with historical reality, nor does it fit into the well-established parameters of Late Antiquity”. Now, the said parameters coincide with much of what you’ve written, and Kush and Meroë, to speak only about those Nubian kingdoms, are not unmentioned.

  13. JackOH says:
    @John Regan

    It is amazing how much of what passes for politics in more recent generations is about reinventing the wheel on issues where even people thousands of years ago had not only considered the issues carefully. But often arrived at better answers too than our current oracles.

    Fine comment, sir.

    I’d submit we’re condemned under our current government(s) to reinventing the wheel, and also to ignoring the wheel (hope that means something) in the name of American exceptionalism, or, much more likely, to satisfy the kleptocratic lust and power lust of our leaders.

    We ignore the ancients at our peril.

    • Agree: John Regan
  14. RobinG says:
    @Jack McArthur

    So, was Cadmus a real person? Have you read “The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony,” by Calasso? (I’ve never been a Grecophile and wasn’t disappointed.)

    • Replies: @Jack McArthur
  15. RobinG says:
    @anonymous

    How much of what we ‘know’ about Greece is just their myths about themselves? Their demos was tyrannical.

  16. So the only purpose for all of ancient history is to prove whites superior.

    Gee. I did not know that.

  17. Seraphim says:

    Its a pity that Durocher overlooked such an enduring soul lifting aspect of the ‘Greek miracle’: male to male ‘love’ (paiderastia), female to female ‘love’ (sapphism), so enthusiastically endorsed by the ‘unique West’ (Germanic especially).

    • Replies: @Chinaman's Nightmare
  18. Oh boy, you spoke ill of the Frankfurt school and Marxism…Keith Woods and Richard Spencer won’t be having this.

    Expect them to call upon you and enlighten to the truth of one struggle with communists and Muslims against zionism.

  19. Anon[278] • Disclaimer says:

    In these discussions of the Classical World; don‘t forget Bzyantium whise society upheld classic Greek culture until 1453.

    The Renaissance was sparked by Byzantine ‘Greeks’ fleeing the Turks.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  20. J says:
    @anonymous

    The Greeks certainly considered themselves free and the Persians, slaves. Xenophon explains Greek superiority in the battle to their voluntarism.

  21. @Jack McArthur

    That the Hyksos were not the same people as the people of the Exodus, the descendants of Joseph and the other sons of Jacob—in other words, the ancient Hebrews—had already been solidly established by historians and archaeologists when I first studied ancient history in college in the early sixties. Since then, the techniques of archaeological chemistry have grown immensely more sophisticated and revealing. Nothing discovered or confirmed since the sixties with the aid of chemistry and computers has made the equation of the Hyksos with the Hebrews more likely. These aids have in fact done precisely the opposite.

    All the comments in this thread that treat this equation as if it had some basis in established historical or scientific fact are fanciful in the extreme and, as such, have no genuine relevance either to Durocher’s book or Doctor MacDonald’s introduction to it.

    I pass over in silence the notion that the Greeks of antiquity had Nubian or other black African origins. This assertion was laughable when black pseudo-scholars began promoting the fiction fully forty years ago. With the passage of time, those looking for classic laughter with a black origin would be better advised to hunt up films or kinescopes of the televised version of Amos ‘n’ Andy—if any exist.

    • Agree: René Fries
  22. @anonymous

    Here’s the Cyrus Cylinder, purloined for the British Museum as such things often were.

    And probably still are, or at least the trade in such things still takes place:

    Students at NYU school named for Steinhardt calls for removal of his name
    By SHIRA HANAU/JTA – Yesterday 7:01 PM

    Student government leaders at New York University’s Steinhardt School of Culture, Education, and Human Development are calling for the school to remove Michael Steinhardt’s name after it was revealed that the philanthropist had acquired, owned and sold more than 1,000 looted items over the past 30 years.

    This was not the first time students at NYU have called for Steinhardt’s name to be removed from the school… In 2019, students at the school called for his name to be removed after Steinhardt was accused of propositioning and making sexually inappropriate remarks to several women with whom he interacted as part of their work in Jewish philanthropy or the arts.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/students-at-nyu-school-named-for-steinhardt-calls-for-removal-of-his-name/ar-AARFhKJ?ocid=msedgntp

  23. Dumbo says:
    @Mackerel Sky

    Yes, also back-reading things such as an “evolutionary perspective” or that the Greeks were somehow “white nationalists” or “alt-right” avant-la-letre.

    It’s sort of annoying, both in the left and in the right, to try to mold ancient societies to their current prejudices. The ancients just didn’t think this way. Perhaps we’ll never know exactly how they thought, but their own surviving books give a good hint.

    They had some admirable traits, others, not so much.

    Also, I think this evolutionary thought applied to how societies, modern or old, work, is just wrong. Societies obey principles other than “evolution”.

    Or we wouldn’t be today in a process of conscious self-destruction, which make no sense from that perspective.

  24. @RobinG

    So, was Cadmus a real person? Have you read “The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony,” by Calasso? (I’ve never been a Grecophile and wasn’t disappointed.)

    The infiltration of the Hyksos and their eventual expulsion from Egypt is indeed history supported by the archeological records. They had to go somewhere and there is nothing particularly improbable that two branches took two routes that would impact on the Aegean. Semitic names like Jacob were used by the Hyksos and there is an epithet of Zeus which in English seems close to Hyksos. In short I think the Greek stories are reflecting truth to some degree.

    Even the Phoenician alphabet that Cadmos is supposed to have brought to Greece folds back to Ancient Egypt.

    The Phoenician alphabet is also called the Early Linear script (in a Semitic context, not connected to Minoan writing systems), because it is an early development of the pictographic Proto- or Old Canaanite script, into a linear, alphabetic script, also marking the transfer from a multi-directional writing system, where a variety of writing directions occurred, to a regulated horizontal, right-to-left script.[4] Its immediate predecessor, the Proto-Canaanite, Old Canaanite or early West Semitic alphabet,[5][4] used in the final stages of the Late Bronze Age first in Canaan and then in the Syro-Hittite kingdoms, is the oldest fully matured alphabet, thought to be derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs.[6]

    Thanks for the link to Calasso.

  25. @obwandiyag

    Let’s have a bit of pity for the white man. The world he has created has proven so dysfunctional — just take a look around — that he now seeks solace by retreating into his nostalgic fantasies about the Greeks. 🙂

    • Replies: @Sepp
    , @Bartolo
  26. John Helms says: • Website

    Is this book really worth reading, and how useful would it be to spend the time to read it?
    _____________________________
    P.s: About me:
    Freelance developer at http://jooble.org/

  27. @René Fries

    Individualism never was highly prized in Eastern cultures…

    One wonders to what extent those who make extravagant claims of this nature have seriously studied Eastern cultures. I dare say there’s individualism aplenty in premodern China’s culture. The 18th-century novel A Dream of Red Mansions contains hundreds of characters with very distinct personalities; I doubt you can get mixed up between them. The skeptic is invited to read the five-volume English translation published by Penguin under the title The Story of the Stone.

    Individuality was highly prized as well in the arts, as scholars of Chinese art such as James Cahill acknowledge. This is especially true of Chinese calligraphy, where the individual artist is expected to eventually develop a signature style of his own in forming the characters on the paper.

    But perhaps a bit of analysis of the term ‘individualism’ is in order. Just what do we mean by being ‘individualistic’? Do we perhaps mean a recognition of an individual’s will and his right to be in possession of and to exercise it? Hey, it can be found in Confucius:

    “The commander of three armies may be taken away, but the will of even a common man may not be taken away from him.” (Analects 9:25)

    Or do we mean having firm convictions of one’s own which one would stand by even when threatened with death? That’s found in Confucius, too:

    “Confucius said: Heaven produced the virtue that is in me; what can Huan Tui do to me?” (Analects 7:22)

    Or do we mean not going with the grain by simply doing what everyone else does?

    “The superior man seeks harmony but not sameness. The mean man seeks sameness but not harmony.” (Analects 13:23)

    Or do we mean recognizing that individuals are different and that therefore there can’t be any one-size-fits-all method of teaching different people?

    “Tzu-lu asked: Should we immediately practice what we’ve learned? Confucius replied: No, consult your parents and siblings first. Jan Yu later asked the same, whereupon Confucius replied: Yes. Still later someone asked why Confucius gave two different answers to the same question, whereupon Confucius replied: Jan Yu is the hesitant sort, so I want to give him a push. Tzu-lu is too impulsive, so I want to slow him down.” (Analects 11:21)

    Or do we mean an understanding that the individual needs to constantly exercise his intellect by thinking of the right thing to do in any given situation, rather than simply live by an inflexible set of rules, because reality is so complex and multifaceted that we can’t have a one-size-fits-all set of rules to be used by everyone every time?

    “In the world there is nothing the superior man will always or will never do. He simply follows what is in accordance with yi (often translated as ‘righteousness’).” (Analects 4:10)

    “If I have pointed out one corner of a square and [those I teach] cannot come back to me with the other three, I won’t go over the points again.” (Analects 7:8)

    “I have no hard-and-fast rules on what may and what may not be done.” (Analects 18:8)

    Or do we mean being able to think for ourselves and not agreeing with everything others say?

    “For a whole day I conversed with Hui and he, like a dullard, never raised an objection.” (Analects 2:9)

    “Hui is no help to me. He never disagrees with what I say.” (Analects 11:3)

    All in all, I remain utterly unconvinced that the Hellenes alone (plus the Teutons?) prized the individual. Such a claim simply holds no water. Be it said, too, that there was very little slavery in premodern China. Slavery was considered a luxury: only the filthy rich could afford slaves.

    I actually have precious little against what the people of the West want to believe about themselves so long as they don’t go around forcing their brand of ‘civilization’ down others’ throats in the name of some ‘civilizing mission’. It will be appreciated if they give up this tiresome game, of which others have had enough, thank you very much. (As if the world’s really become a better place for it.)

  28. Jon Chance says: • Website

    Two practical rules may be of central concern for those of us who value cultural and national integrity:

    1 – All voting Citizens — both men and women — must serve in our well-regulated militia (national guard).

    2 – All voting Citizens must be born of two biological parents both of whom were born within the nation.

    How many other rules are necessary?

  29. As Duchesne notes, although the Chinese made many practical discoveries, they never developed the idea of a rational, orderly universe guided by universal laws comprehensible to humans. Nor did they ever develop a “deductive method of rigorous demonstration according to which a conclusion, a theorem, was proven by reasoning from a series of self-evident axioms,”
    as seen in Aristotle’s Prior Analytics.

    Quite evidently Duchesne never heard of the 12th-century thinker Chu Hsi (Pinyin romanization: Zhu Xi), whose cosmology has invited comparisons (by Western scholars) with Aristotle, Aquinas, Leibniz and Whitehead. Those who are interested in finding out more about this thinker — and who have not been too drunk with fantasies about the superiority of the West — are invited for a start to check out the first volume of the late British sinologist Joseph Needham’s Science and Civilization in China (published by Cambridge University Press).

    As for logic and reasoning, the Hindus and Buddhists had heaps of such things. The Chinese also came up with an independent proof of Pythagoras’ Theorem.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  30. SafeNow says:

    I am a believer in the traditional rather than “refreshed” (Harvard’s word) curriculum in schools. I am now thinking I should be applying this more broadly. Great essay and comments for me to think about, thank you.

  31. Sepp says:
    @SomeoneInAsia

    All hail the Han ethnostate. What is it now, 2 billion? When will the Han stop genociding every ethnic group they come in contact with? Will they ever? Goodbye Tibetans, goodbye Mongolians, goodbye Uigurs,

  32. Sepp says:

    Those Greek city states were not only “mono-ethnic”, they were also small. Empires like the US, Russia, China, Turkey, India or even the UK are an abomination not only because of their tragic “diversity”, but also because they are simply far too big, both is geographic size and population.

    The US, Russia and China should be broken down into hundreds of independent countries in a confederation, with each of those countries a confederation of dozens of highly sovereign provinces each with a maximum population of less that 1 million, ideally closer to 100,000. Local and individual sovereignty should be sacrosanct.

    This is the only way to have a truly representative government managing a high trust society composed of voluntary citizens. To a large degree this is what ancient Greece represents.

    • Replies: @Pierre de Craon
  33. geokat62 says:
    @anonymous

    Very wrong! It is the Graeco-Roman West which had the slavery cultures. Ancient Persia and India were anti-slave, more advanced and spiritual and humane in many ways. It’s a tragedy that essentially anti-slave Persian and Zoroastrian cultures, were defeated by slave-owning Greeks and eventually pro-slavery Islam, the Western-Judaic-Christian-Islamic slavery mentality still poisoning the world.

    It is too-little recalled that Persia 2500 years ago, gave us the world’s ‘first human rights document’, the Cyrus cylinder in the picture below …

    Here’s a Quora response to Why didn’t Persians practice slavery through history?:

    It’s misleading [to] say the Persian’s didn’t practice slavery or slave trading. There are a lot of internet claims about this but they reflect a mixture of a very real distinction between the Persian economy and those of the Mediterranean world and a misreading of the Cyrus Cylinder (a misreading which was happily fostered by the Shah of Iran, who wanted to find a “progressive” role model in pre-Islamic Persian history).

    [MORE]

    On the positive side, we do know that Persian society was more or less “feudal”; a lot of the population were “free” but bound to the land like medieval European serfs. There’s also good bit of evidence — literary and archaeological — that suggests that the Persians (or more precisely one part of Persia, the region of Persepolis for which we have some archival material) did not rely on slaves to the same extent as Greeks, Romans, or Mesopotamians did. That much is pretty uncontroversial

    Still: there was slavery in the Persian empire. There’s a lot of evidence over several hundred years, across all three incarnations of the Persian empire.

    Achaemenids
    In the Achaemenid empire there are a number of accounts of Persians taking slaves. For example, here’s this from Herodotus:
    All this now came upon the Milesians; for the most part of their men were slain by the long-haired Persians, and their women and children were accounted as slaves, and the temple at Didyma with its shrine and place of divination was plundered and burnt.

    6.19

    People who want to believe in Persian abolitionism dismiss this (and several other stories involving mass enslavement of captured Greek cities) as “propaganda.” That’s an entirely anachronistic way to to look at it: what kind of propaganda value this would have for a Greek audience who regarded slavery as a normal consequence of warfare? It’s hardly some kind of uniquely Persian vice in their eyes, and it’s passed along without comment time after time.
    This isn’t in any way unique, either; similar stories crop up all over Herodotus (again, without being particularly highlighted). When Persian satrap Oroetes murders Polycrates of Samos, he takes his followers as slaves:
    Oroetes then crucified him; as for the Samians in his retinue he let them go, bidding them thank Oroetes for their freedom; those who were not Samians, or were servants of Polycrates’ followers, he kept for slaves.

    3.126

    But when Darius has Oroetes killed, he still keeps Oroetes’ slaves:
    Oroetes’ slaves and other possessions were brought to Susa. Not long after this, it happened that Darius, one morning, while hunting, twisted his foot in dismounting from his horse, so violently that the ball of the ankle joint was dislocated from its socket. Darius called in the first physicians of Egypt,α whom he had till now kept near his person; who, by their forcible wrenching of the foot, did but make the hurt worse; and seven days and nights the king could get no sleep for the pain. On the eighth day he was in very evil case; then someone, who had heard in Sardis of the skill of Democedes of Croton, told the king of him. Darius bade Democedes be brought to him without delay. Finding the physician somewhere all unregarded and forgotten among Oroetes’ slaves, they brought him into view, dragging his chains and clad in rags.

    3.129

    In a similar vein Herodotus tells the story of Hermotimus of Pedasa, a young Carian who was castrated and sold to the Persian king as a eunuch. He eventually rose to a position of power at court and used his position to wreak revenge upon the man who had enslaved him.
    But even if you want to read all of that as propaganda there’s really no good explanation for these first-hand observations from Xenophon’s Anabasis

    Cyrus [the younger] presented him with the customary royal gifts—to wit, a horse with a gold bit, a necklace of gold, a gold bracelet, and a gold scimitar, a Persian dress, and lastly, the exemption of his territory from further pillage, with the privilege of taking back the slaves that had been seized, wherever they might chance to come upon them.

    1.2.27

    and
    In these villages they remained three days, and a deputation from the great king arrived—Tissaphernes and the king’s brother-in-law and three other Persians—with a retinue of many slaves.

    2.3.17

    There’s also things like the fact that Babylon’s annual tribute to Persia included 500 castrated boys — a form of taxation which makes no sense at all if those boys were free to turn around and go home whenever they chose.
    It is worth pointing out that this doesn’t proves that the Persians practiced slavery on the same scale as their neighbors. But that’s a very different claim than the often repeated but never documented claim that they actually abolished slavery in their domains. We know from innumerable pieces of of evidence — literary and archaeological — that Greeks and Lydians and Babylonians and Phoenicians and many other subject peoples still practiced slavery under the Persian empire without hindrance from the Persian authorities.
    Greek sources are the most accessible evidence, but they aren’t the only examples. For example the biblical book of Esther is set in Persia, and Esther is attended both by female slaves and eunuchs. In the biblical book of Nehemiah — who was governor of Judaea under Artaxerxes I

    — poor Israelites are reduced to selling their children into slavery.
    We have very little documentary evidence from the Achaemenid empire but, we do have things like cuneiform documents from this period include records of slave sales

    including Persian buyers and sellers, and even slaves with Persian-sounding names. There’s good evidence for the Persian imperial government collecting taxes on the sale of slaves

    , so it’s not an example of some kind of surreptitious underground trade.

    A slave-sale contract from the archives of the Babylonian firm of Egibi. The Egibi archives include slaves from as far away as Gandhara in modern Pakistan — people who could never have reached Babylon if the Persians did not permit slave trading through the Persian heartland. Image: Metropolitan Museum

    Above all — surprisingly, given how few private Persian documents actually survive from this period — we even have first-person evidence: the letters of the Persian nobleman Aršama

    , a satrap of Egypt in the fifth century BC make it pretty obvious:
    From Aršama to Artavanta (‘Artahanta’). I send yo[u] (wishes for) much peace and strength! And now, (there is) peace in this (place) before me. 2. May there also be peace there before y[o]u. And now: there are Cili[cian] men, my slaves, in Egypt: 3. (he) whose name is Pariyama, (he) whose name is Ammuwana, (he) whose name is Saraka, (he) whose [n]ame is TʿNDY, [] (he) whose name is [….]MY, (he) whose name is Sadasbinazi 4. [] (he) whose name is I[nda]ma (?), (he) whose name is Sarmanazi, (he) whose name is Kaʾ, (he) whose name is Bagafarnah, (he) whose name is Piyatarunazi, (he) whose name is Asmaraupa, (he) whose name is Muwasarma, (In) all, 13 men. They were appointed (as) pressers among my domains which are in Upper and Lower (Egypt). After, when Egypt rebelled, and the (armed) force were garrisoned, then that Pariyama and his companions were not able to enter into the fortress. After, the wicked [I]n[ḥ]arou seized them, (and) they were with him. Now, if (it seems) like a good thing to you, let an order be issued by you, so that a person should not do anything bad to that Pariyama and his companions. Let them be released. Let them do my work as previously

    T.AD.6.7

    . You’ll note that both Aršama and Artavanta are Persians.
    It’s also worth remembering that slavery doesn’t just mean whip-cracking labor in the fields or the mines. Persian men had both wives and concubines, and the latter were frequently slaves. For example the poor Greek girl Aspasia

    ended up in the harem of Cyrus the Younger “not willingly nor with the consent of her father, but by compulsion, as it often happens upon the taking of cities.” Now, the story makes a big deal of the way that Cyrus became besotted with her and showered her with gifts — but that is hardly typical of a system where young women are carted off into the embraces of powerful men by force. After Cyrus’ death, she found her way into the good graces of Artaxerxes — by comforting him for the death of his own favorite slave lover, a eunuch boy named Tiridates.
    Parthian Period
    There’s also good evidence for slavery in the Parthian period.
    The most famous example is the 10,000 or so Roman survivors of the battle of Carrhae who were enslaved and deported to Bactria. But the most picturesque example is the slave girl who became empress of the Parthian realm: Musa of Parthia

    was an Italian slave — a gift of the emperor Augustus — who charmed Phraates IV into marrying her… at least, until she had him poisoned and ruled as regent with her young son Phraates V.

    Phraates (left) and Musa (right)

    There’s also the Parthian viceroy Himerus, who (according to Diodorus) enslaved many of the Babylonians, upon slight pretexts, along with their whole families, and sent them into Media to be sold as booty. He also burnt to the ground the market-place, and some of the temples in Babylon; and destroyed the best part of the city.

    Himerus was a Hyrcanian, so perhaps his vices reflect the behavior of his rough-and-ready origins — but he’s taking his victims to Media, in the heartland of the empire, not west to Mediterranean markets.
    It appears that the Parthians particularly used slaves in their mines: Pliny the Younger writes to the emperor Trajan

    (letter XXVI) about an encounter with a Greek named Callidromos who escaped from a Parthian mine. Interestingly Callidromos was not captured in war, but sent to the Parthian king Pacorus by Decebalus, the king of the Dacians — evidence for an international movement of slaves between the Balkans and Persia, independent of Rome. Pliny enclosed with the letter a small nugget of gold which the escaped slave had smuggled out of the mine.
    Sassanian Period
    Slavery is well attested in Sassanian law

    — for which, unlike previous eras, we have a reasonable number of Iranian sources. The martial exploits of the Sassanids generated a lot of captives, who ended up as slaves. For example, Shapur I boasted in his inscription at Naqsh-i-Rustam:

    And the men, who from the land of the Romans, from not-Iran, were led back as spoils, into Iran, into Persis, Parthia, Xuzestan, Asurestan and the other lands, land by land, where settlements were established by me and my father and forebearers and ancestors, there they were settled.

    Thus anšahrīg, “foreigner” and wardāg, “captive.” became the common ways to refer to slaves. However Sassanian slavery also encompassed people sold into slavery for debt, or who sold themselves into it voluntarily to obtain economic support.
    The terms seem to be generally fairly humane, for a slave law-code — cruelty and mutilation were punishable with fines, for example — but it’s still slave law. It seems to have been illegal to sell an Iranian to a non-Iranian, or a Zoroastrian to a non-Zoroastrian. This is similar to (and may even be the inspiration for) similar prohibitions on the enslavement of co-religionists in Byzantine among Byzantine Christians and early Muslims.
    Islamic Period
    In Islamic times slavery became common in Persia.
    The Arab Abbassid Caliphate, centered in Baghdad but including much of Persia, was a massive importer of slaves from both Africa and Europe. And the even when the Persians reasserted themselves (under the Saffarids

    , in the later 9th century) they clearly still had domestic slaves. There’s a famous story, for example, that Ferdowsi

    , the father of classical Persian literature, was so offended at a skimpy fee given him for one of his poems that he gave the reward to the slave who had brought the money. Later on the Safavid dynasty

    in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries used slave soldiers (similar to the Mamluks in Egypt) taken among Christian Georgians and pagan Circassians.

    All this said, it’s still worth pointing out that the Persian practice of slavery does not seem to have reached the same level of ubiquity we find in the Greco-Roman or Mesopotamian world. However there’s a world of difference between that recognition and the claim that that Persians “abolished” slavery. Our knowledge of all of this is more limited than we’d like— we don’t have much native Persian information before the Sassanians — but there’s no reason to think the Persians were so radically different from their neighbors. In addition to all of contemporary evidence already cited it’s important to remember that no ancient source ever says that they didn’t have slaves: something that the many Greek, Roman, and Jewish sources would have found remarkable if it had been true, since it would have been a glaring exception to the behavior of all the neighboring societies.

    Answer to Why didn’t Persians practice slavery through history? by Steve Theodore

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  34. @SomeoneInAsia

    Superb comment. Great examples and a dynamite last paragraph!

    I’m a Westerner who’s had around a three quarters of a century of having had enough of it, (particularly repugnant are the pretexts piously trotted out), and I marvel at the forebearance of much of the rest of the world.

    Thank you.

    • Replies: @JWalters
  35. geokat62 says:
    @Anon

    The Renaissance was sparked by Byzantine ‘Greeks’ fleeing the Turks.

    A little known fact is the West was just one of three beneficiaries of the Byzantine cultural legacy.

    Excerpt from Sailing from Byzantium:

    The book’s second organizing idea is that the beneficiaries of this dual legacy were the three younger civilizations that emerged at first in lands wrested from Byzantium: the Western, Islamic, and Slavic worlds. Each of these three global civilizations was radically shaped by Byzantium— but each was highly selective about the side of Byzantium it chose to embrace. This book celebrates the energy and drive of these younger cultures as well as the extraordinary richness of Byzantine culture.

    The book is an excellent read, I highly recommend it.

    • Thanks: Arthur MacBride
    • Replies: @Anon
  36. geokat62 says:
    @SomeoneInAsia

    Quite evidently Duchesne never heard of the 12th-century thinker Chu Hsi (Pinyin romanization: Zhu Xi), whose cosmology has invited comparisons (by Western scholars) with Aristotle, Aquinas, Leibniz and Whitehead.

    Could you kindly cite some of those Western scholars who’ve made those comparisons? I’m curious to see if any of them are from the traditional classics school or, more likely, are drawn from the woke left.

    As for logic and reasoning, the Hindus and Buddhists had heaps of such things.

    Heaps, huh?

    Could you cite something in Hindu or Buddhist logic and reasoning that is comparable to Aristotle’s magnum opus, Organon?

    They grouped Aristotle’s six logical treatises into a sort of manual they called the Organon (Greek for “tool”). The Organon included the Categories, On Interpretation, the Prior Analytics, the Posterior Analytics, the Topics, and On Sophistical Refutations. These books touch on many issues: the logical structure of propositions, the proper structure of arguments (syllogisms), the difference between induction and deduction, the nature of scientific knowledge, basic fallacies (forms of specious reasoning), debating techniques, and so on. But we cannot confine our present investigations to the Organon. Aristotle comments on the principle of non-contradiction in the Metaphysics, on less rigorous forms of argument in the Rhetoric, on the intellectual virtues in the Nicomachean Ethics, on the difference between truth and falsity in On the Soul, and so on. We cannot overlook such important passages if we wish to gain an adequate understanding of Aristotelian logic.

    The Chinese also came up with an independent proof of Pythagoras’ Theorem.

    Could you provide a reference to a Chinese compendium of mathematical principles, axioms, theorems, and proofs that is comparable to Euclid’s Elements?

  37. R2b says:

    How booring!
    And untimely!
    There are certainly other issues.
    Than pondering theAristocracy of yester Greece.
    Get a grip!
    Aristocracy is pursuing a coup, NOW!

  38. Bartolo says:
    @SomeoneInAsia

    It is so dysfunctional that the flow of people from Asia to West is probably hundreds of times bigger than the flow from the West to Asia. All is said.

  39. Ancient Greece was an Indo-European culture

    I stopped right there, and came here to comment. There is no “Indo”- European culture, there is only European culture, or Proto- European culture. The Europeans of today have ancestors hailing from somewhere in the Caucasus; and a branch of those ancestors went east into India and conquered it, that’s all. The rest of Indian population at that time was racially very distinct from these conquerors, and even now a very large bulk of the present Indian population is not descended from those conquerors (though many of them have a trace of these conquerors). Calling Greek culture as Indo-European is like calling a Spanish man as “South Americo-Spanish”.

    • Replies: @Malaparte
    , @Malla
  40. ““Aristotle is clear … that private property is not a right enabling individuals to be as capricious and selfish as they please, but merely a sensible way of producing wealth, whose aim must ultimately be the well-being of the community.””

    Do you think that pigs like Bezos, Zuckerberg inrer alia understand it? I seriously doubt it!

  41. Anon[408] • Disclaimer says:
    @geokat62

    Indeed – forgot about the Bzyantine ‘Greek’ roots of Moscow. Thank you

    … So know, pious king, that all the Christian kingdoms came to an end and came together in a single kingdom of yours, two Romes have fallen, the third stands, and there will be no fourth….

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow,_third_Rome

    • Thanks: geokat62
  42. anon[263] • Disclaimer says:

    For an example of Hollywood’s subliminal message on racial supremacy, look no further than the legal drama Suits, which ran on USA for 9 seasons. The show is created by a Jewish male and is primarily about a bunch of cocky, ruthless, abrasive, shady, pugnacious and self-righteous NY lawyers whose firm only hire “best of the best of the best”, i.e. graduates of Harvard Law. Every main male lawyer on that show is either Jewish or black. But all the main actresses are gorgeous blonde shiksas, plus a couple of black females. The gorgeous white shiksas are falling all over themselves for the Jewish men, while the lone WASP male is a punk who lied his way into the profession and ended up with a mulatto. Must be the dream world for every Jewish man.

    Aside from the subliminal miscegenation, the show also tries to encourage what was once seen as negative Jewish traits by normalizing them: lies are endearingly referred to as “bluffs”, business partners/colleagues/friends/family members are constantly backstabbing one another. Everyone is vengeful, vindictive, rude and always yelling. No one ever does anything for anyone out of kindness or for doing what’s right, it’s always, “you owe me one”, with the implication that “someday, I will come collect and you can’t say no”. And indeed they do collect, always with the reminder, “you owe me, remember?” People are always angry, and threatening one another, “if you do this…” The show normalizes Jew ethos by making them seem like “everyone does it”. All the black, Indian, WASP characters on the show act like Jews.

    • Agree: Vinnyvette
  43. Malaparte says:
    @Old Brown Fool

    Although I acknowledge and greatly appreciate MacDonald’s many contributions and sacrifices for the cause of Europeans, the theory of “Indo European” aristocratic individualism is pure myth-making & backward projection without any basis in archaeological science. MacDonald & Duchesne are overly reliant on David Anthony’s now discredited chronology of horse mastery on the primordial Steppe. Duchesne paints a romantic picture of young, daring men on horseback garnering individual glory & fame by raiding herds across the Steppe for a few thousand years before they swept into Europe, bringing in their train the culture and practices of “aristocratic individualism.”

    But there’s a fatal flaw with this theory, which is that R1b groups entered and spread across Europe long before the horse was mastered for purposes of raiding and warfare. Although Mycenaean Greece may itself have been the product of a late-stage takeover by Steppe warriors circa 1600 BCE (see the work of Robert Drews), the wider West European world has no such legacy or cultural foundation. We are not the descendants of Aryan conquerors. Rather, we are the children of the all the different peoples who combined to make modern Europeans.

    Aside from this, I enjoyed MacDonald’s review and intend to read Durocher’s book.

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
    , @Anon
  44. @obwandiyag

    Thanks for admitting the obvious. It took long enough, better late than never.

  45. “[T]he Chinese … never developed the idea of a rational, orderly universe guided by universal laws comprehensible to humans. Nor did they ever develop a “deductive method of rigorous demonstration according to which a conclusion, a theorem, was proven by reasoning from a series of self-evident axioms,”[16]
    as seen in Aristotle’s Prior Analytics.”

    So much for the aspiring hegemon! A people best suited to work for the Western interests. Chinese bravado will not be welcome here!

  46. chris says:
    @SomeoneInAsia

    First of all, let me just say that I really appreciate you comment and perspective, though I believe that if you were to take a survey of opinions from around the world, about adjectives describing Asians, I would venture to guess that “individualistic” would not make the top 10.

    To a great extent, this is obviously a function of the population densities in which these societies were formed. For this reason it’s clear that individualism was imperative when the societies were smaller, and so this aspect will be found in earlier historical documents, but such traits and their historical blueprints will become less frequent in more contemporary documents and national traits, as these societies become more populated.

    And I can’t help but point out the fact that there is something very funny about making the case for individualism in Asia, and then signing you comment as: “Someone in Asia”

  47. Is anyone really still that confused about “West” vs “White?”

    Nobody is (plausibly) claiming that the Greeks were direct biological ancestors of (for example) white people in the US via Europe. Attempts by the left to imply that they were really “brown peoples” are merely a sneaky way to default on the debt that we owe to Greece and Rome as ancient civilizational antecedents.

    Show the Left any tradition that someone might be proud to carry on, and they’ll either tell you why you should be ashamed of it or that you have no right to call it your own. I don’t really care if someone wants to feel isolated and self-defeating, as long as they keep it from poisoning an objective understanding.

    • Agree: Pierre de Craon, chris
  48. @Malaparte

    The critical factor is the invention of The Wheel, circa 3000BC, in the area of modern day Poland SE to Serbia. The Wheel might have been invented as early as 5000BC in Europe. It spread to the rest of the World Island about 1800BC. East Asians had no wheel before 1800BC. By 1800BC the Celts had produced the innovation of iron tires over wooden wheels to increase service life. The Wheel is purely an invention of White Men. The domestication of the horse cannot be separated from Wheel Technology. This pre-historical area is still unresolved due to the sparse archeological record.

  49. Mulegino1 says:
    @Pierre de Craon

    I agree completely. The idea of a black African origin of Hellenic culture is ridiculous.

    Negroid Africans never developed a high culture themselves. They never discovered the wheel. They never even had a sense of real, rational causality.

    Egyptian civilization was the work of Indo-Europeans.

  50. @Pierre de Craon

    You assert

    the Hyksos were not the same people as the people of the Exodus,

    but modern scholarship:

    Nor are we justified in construing as a difficulty the discrepancy between the bondage tradition of Exodus 1:11-14 and the historical reality of the Hyksos expulsion: the Biblical writer has here incorporated another figment of legend for which , in fact he had Egypt to thank…”

    This is from “Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times” (p. 413) which was awarded the “Best Scholarly Book in Archaeology” by the Biblical Archaeology Society.

    also:

    True, the report of the Exodus stems from an authentic account of a sojourn in and departure from Egypt, but those events were experienced not by the Hebrews but the Hyksos, whose traditions the Hebrews inherited

    This is from “The Mind of Egypt”(p. 283) . The writer:

    Jan Assmann is professor emeritus of Egyptology at the University of Heidelberg and holds an honorary professorship in the theory of religion and general cultural studies at the University of Constance. He has been honoured with numerous awards for his work, including the Federal Cross of Merit First Class and the Thomas Mann Prize, as well as the Peace Prize of the German Book Trade (together with his wife), the Karl Jaspers Prize, the Balzan Prize, and (most recently) the Order “Pour le Mérite for Science and Arts”. Jan Assmann has published widely on Egyptology, cultural studies, and religious studies, including “Cultural Memory” (1992), “Exodus: The Revolution of the Ancient World” (2019), “Axial Age: An Archaeology of Modernity” (2018), and “Total Religion: Origins and Forms of Puritan Intensification” (2016). Numerous visiting professorships and fellowships have taken Assmann to Yale, Jerusalem, Houston, Paris, Oxford, and Chicago. He is a member of many academies of science, and has been awarded honorary doctorates from Münster, Yale and Jerusalem.

    The issue of when Cananites Hebrews, Israelites and Jews become differentiated in the minds of modern readers seems to be heavily in the realm of faith.

    Biblical scholar Mark Smith notes that archaeological data suggests “that the Israelite culture largely overlapped with and derived from Canaanite culture … In short, Israelite culture was largely Canaanite in nature.”[7]: 13–14 [8][9]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan

    Your final remarks do not invalidate the point I raised regarding possible Nubian representation among Hyksos refugees which lend supports to Ancient Greek reports.

    • Replies: @Pierre de Craon
  51. anon[408] • Disclaimer says:

    The West is lost. Perhaps Islam is the future. WSJ has an article today about Dubai booming with its 90% vaccination rate and de facto open borders with 10 year visas attracting loads of tourists and wealthy/professional immigrants from the world over. But before anyone hails victory for conservatism, they have also loosen the laws and now allow bikinis, alcohol, marijuana and co-habitation of unmarried couples. I’m assuming gays are now tolerated as long as they refrain from PDA, though they’re probably working hard on bringing the first pride parade to the Arab world.

    I’ve often wondered about Dubai’s model. If 90% of the people living in your country are foreigners, is it still your country? The government appeases the natives with lots of largess: cushy government jobs, free healthcare, education etc. It is said the average Dubaian just drives between the mosque and the mall 5 times a day everyday, like the Saudis. It is extremely difficult for foreigners to gain citizenship. They have to live there for at least 30 years, and be married to a citizen, and I think only a male citizen. But I do wonder how it is that the natives don’t seem to care about losing their culture. Is such fear a uniquely Christian white phenomenon?

    I also wonder about the right’s romanticizing of the Greeks and Romans. The Greeks were an immoral lot with homosexuality and pedophilia running rampant. Men and women thought nothing of infidelity. The Romans were savages by today’s standards. All of human history is one of constant warfare and savagery. The West was saved by Christianity, not by the Greeks and Romans. The loss of Christianity will bring about the demise of the West and return us to savagery. Without Christianity, the West has no two legs to stand on when it comes to cultural superiority. We are now approaching Greek/Roman level of decadence and immorality. It is ironic for conservatives to cling to these eras as the salvation of the West.

  52. Malaparte says:
    @Bombercommand

    The relevant issue, for purposes of assessing MacDonald & Duchesne, is that West Europeans are *not* the descendants of Aryan conquerors who swept in on horse-drawn chariots, let alone on horseback. Chariot warfare precedes skillful horseback riding. The chariot appears around 1800 BC, as you correctly state, and effective horseback riding not until after 1000 BC, for reasons to do with bits and stirrups. See the work of Robert Drews.

    But my point is that Steppe-related lineages entered Central & Western Europe over 1000 years before the appearance of chariot warfare, and most of these Steppe-like lineages derived from the forest steppe! MacDonald & Duchesne want to trace Western individualism back to a primordial epoch of daring young men on horseback raiding herds and winning glory across the Steppe. But we are not the descendants of any such people. Plain & simple.

    See https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04018-9

    [MORE]

    “Our results reject the commonly held association7 between horseback riding and the massive expansion of Yamnaya steppe pastoralists into Europe around 3000 BC8,9 driving the spread of Indo-European languages10. This contrasts with the scenario in Asia where Indo-Iranian languages, chariots and horses spread together, following the early second millennium BC Sintashta culture11,12”

    “Analyses of ancient human genomes have revealed a massive expansion from the Western Eurasia steppes into Central and Eastern Europe during the third millennium BC, associated with the Yamnaya culture8,9,11,12,21. This expansion contributed at least two thirds of steppe-related ancestry to populations of the Corded Ware complex (CWC) around 2900 to 2300 BC8. The role of horses in this expansion remained unclear, as oxen could have pulled Yamnaya heavy, solid-wheeled wagons7,22.”

    “Whereas horses living in the Western Eurasia steppes in the late fourth and early third millennia BC were the ancestors of DOM2 horses, there is no evidence that they facilitated the expansion of the human genetic steppe ancestry into Europe8,9 as previously hypothesized7. Instead of horse-mounted warfare, declining populations during the European late Neolithic35 may thus have opened up an opportunity for a westward expansion of steppe pastoralists.”

    “Our results also have important implications for mechanisms underpinning two major language dispersals. The expansion of the Indo-European language family from the Western Eurasia steppes has traditionally been associated with mounted pastoralism, with the CWC serving as a major stepping stone in Europe39,40,41. However, while there is overwhelming lexical evidence for horse domestication, horse-drawn chariots and derived mythologies in the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European family, the linguistic indications of horse-keeping practices at the deeper Proto-Indo-European level are in fact ambiguous42 (Supplementary Discussion) . The limited presence of horses in CWC assemblages43 and the local genetic makeup of CWC specimens reject scenarios in which horses were the primary driving force behind the initial spread of Indo-European languages in Europe44. ”

    See also https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi6941
    “Although it has been proposed that Corded Ware (CW) formed from a male-biased westward migration of genetically Yamnaya-like people (23, 41–44), no overlap in Y-chromosomal lineages (with the exception of a few nondiagnostic I2) has been found between the predominantly R1a-carrying CW and mainly R1b-Z2103–carrying Yamnaya males. Steppe ancestry is also present in Bell Beaker (BB) individuals (5); however, they predominantly carry R1b-P312, a Y-lineage not yet found among CW or Yamnaya males. Therefore, despite their sharing of steppe ancestry (3, 4) and substantial chronological overlap (45), it is currently not possible to directly link Yamnaya, CW, and BB groups as paternal genealogical sources for one another, particularly noteworthy in light of steppe ancestry’s suggested male-driven spread (23, 41–43) and the proposed patrilocal/patriarchal social kinship systems of these three societies (46–48) . . . . Early CW society was diverse and emerged amid a strong cultural and genetic transition, involving males and females of diverse origins and likely ethnicities. Genetic shifts occurred within CW, BB, and EBA societies despite continuity in material culture. Cultural affiliations played a major role in third millennium BCE social behaviors, which ultimately changed with the influx of new people over time.”

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  53. @Mulegino1

    The following shows photographs of busts of the elite which date from the pyramid age.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_head

    • Replies: @Iris
  54. @anon

    I also wonder about the right’s romanticizing of the Greeks and Romans. The Greeks were an immoral lot with homosexuality and pedophilia running rampant. Men and women thought nothing of infidelity. The Romans were savages by today’s standards. All of human history is one of constant warfare and savagery. The West was saved by Christianity, not by the Greeks and Romans. The loss of Christianity will bring about the demise of the West and return us to savagery. Without Christianity, the West has no two legs to stand on when it comes to cultural superiority. We are now approaching Greek/Roman level of decadence and immorality. It is ironic for conservatives to cling to these eras as the salvation of the West.

    Yes:

    Classical authors provide ample and credible evidence for infanticide in Graeco-Roman society (cited in Brunt, 1971; Eyben, 1980–81; Pomeroy, 1984; Wiedemann, 1989; Harris, 1994). Recent archaeological discoveries attest to infanticide from one end of the Roman empire to the other, from Ashkelon in Roman Palestine (Smith & K ahila, 1992) to sites in Roman
    Britain (Mays, 1993)…

    ..from a letter, dated June 17, written by a certain Hilarion in Alexandria to his expectant wife Alis in Oxyrhynchus. He writes ‘‘I ask and beg you to take good care of our baby son, and as soon as I receive payment I will send it up to you. If you are delivered of child [before I get home], if it is a boy keep it, if a girl discard it’’ (Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 744, translated in Lewis, 1985: 54)…There were both public and private bathhouses in Roman Ashkelon. The small bathhouse, where infants were discarded in the sewer beneath, was probably one of many private baths run for profit in this seaport.

    (Determining the Sex of Infanticide Victims from the Late Roman Era through Ancient DNA Analysis, Marina Faerman, Journal of Archaeological Science)

  55. Jim H says:

    ‘Rachel Poser’s New York Times article’ — Kevin Macdonald

    Poser: from the French poseur (an affected or insincere person).

    What a perfectly fitting surname for a (presumably) Jewish pseudo-intellectual scribbler, compulsively acting out her ethnicity’s self-appointed, alienating role as subverter, underminer and vandalizer of her host culture’s values.

    Yet she is a perfect fit for a former general-interest newspaper that has degenerated into a parochial émigré journal pitched to a narrow but chronically overrepresented niche group of American society.

  56. @obwandiyag

    Or, conversely, to prove blacks were inferior… take your pick!

  57. @Seraphim

    Ok, wise guy! While Greeks did all those things, so did the Jews (something about son screwing the father or father doing it to the son, I can’t remember) and the Indians, Chinese, Africans and aboriginals of Australia and Americas. Some wrote it down, like the Greeks and Indians, maybe even the Japanese and some had no written languages to relay the tales of tails to their progeny and their oral histories were conveniently forgotten to appease Judeo-Christian-Islamic authorities. So, let’s not be holier-than-thou!

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  58. Iris says:
    @Pierre de Craon

    This assertion was laughable when black pseudo-scholars began promoting the fiction fully forty years ago.

    But they never did, which shows that your knowledge of the subject is totally inexistent.

    The father of the theory that Ancient Egypt was of Black Africa (Nubian) origin was a physicist from Senegal called Cheikh Anta Diop. He single-handedly produced his breakthrough thesis in 1954, and published it under the title “Nations Negres et Culture“.

    He never said or wrote that “the Greeks of antiquity had Nubian or other black African origins” as you put it. His thesis was that of the anteriority of a Black civilisation over its neighbour White Greece. Egypt’s civilisation being anterior to Greece’s is an undisputable fact anyway, he stated that he transfer of knowledge for a long time operated from Egypt towards Greece, not the other way around.

    A simple example well illustrate our self-inflicted blindness: Pythagoras studied in Egypt for at least 10 years, some say 13. Knowledge of the theorem attributed to him is clearly materialised in the design of the Pyramids by Egyptian engineers whose work long precede his birth. Yet we still call this famous little piece of mathematical knowledge the Pythagorean theorem.

  59. @Jack McArthur

    You appear to be resting your case on a single book by someone whose formidable credentials will prompt me to back off in embarrassment or confusion. Noted.

    The Hyksos were a Semitic people. According to a near consensus of professional present-day archaeologists and of their colleagues going back roughly seventy-five years, any connection between the Hyksos and the Hebrews ends there. I suppose it could be argued that differentiating the two groups might be important enough to Jews for them to cook the evidence, but it would be very difficult to sustain a claim that Christian, non-Christian, and utterly irreligious Old Testament–era archaeologists have all been manipulated to do likewise.

    Speaking of farfetched matters, what does a Wikipedian’s claims about the extent of Canaanite influence upon the material culture of the Israelites—who did to the Canaanites what the Jews have done to the present-day West—have to do with who left Egypt when and why? [Answer: nothing] For certain Jews, doubtless, pretending to a sort of cultic purity or indifference to extratribal influence of any sort remains something of great importance, but no such pretence or temptation to falsify evidence weighs upon others—least of all upon Christians, for whom the significance of Old Testament revelation and Heilsgeschichte lies in the fact that, for reasons yet undisclosed, God the Father chose the Jews as the biological antecedents of the human nature of His Son.

    As one’s faith has, if possible, even less to do with the terminological distinctions relating to the Jews and the people from whom they in measurable part descend than to the foregoing matters, one is left to wonder why you have dragged it (i.e., faith) and those distinctions into your reply, especially as any correspondence between the religion of the close-knit tribal people known as Hebrews and post–70 AD rabbinic Judaism is founded more on (((a certain group’s hyperactive imagination))) than on hard evidence.

    Finally, your last sentence is striking in what it reveals. To talk about “possible Nubian representation among Hyksos refugees” is to prefer daydreams to likelihood. If, as some people aver, the moon landings of 1969–1972 were elaborate hoaxes, dare anyone rule out as impossible the belief that the moon is made of green cheese?

  60. Anonymous[124] • Disclaimer says:

    The phrase “so-called white culture” in the above quotation from Rachel Poser’s New York Times article

    Is jewyawktimes’ Rachel-the-Poseur a “so-called” Chosenite…yet another White-envying noseberg who’s jealous of White beauty, energy, generosity, tenacity, smarts, feats, and successes?

    Asking for a friend.

    Defenders of Whiteness need to start protesting antigentilism.

    Durocher does not shy away from discussing slavery, the relatively confined role of women, or the cruelty that Greeks could exhibit even toward their fellow Greeks.

    Slavery. Different roles for men and women. Fratricide. Internecine wars. None of the preceding are unique to Whites or Greeks.

    What IS unique is White civilizations having expended much blood and treasure to lessen each of the above all-too-human arrangements.

    Now…have jews ever owned slaves? Did jews ever profit from trading slaves?

    Have blacks atoned for CREATING slavery in Africa?

    Why didn’t “fierce and feisty” Greek females form their own hoplite phalanxes? Any benefits of being female in ancient Greece like there are today for modern women?

    Have no other groups/nations had civil wars? Do Hutus and Tutsis love each other?

    FACT: anti-White hatred deflates the nanosecond Whites start equally criticizing other cultures.

    That’s why Whites need to start…

    …capitalizing the “W” in White and un-capitalizing the “B” in black and other descriptors.

    …comparing the Holycaust to the Holodomor;

    …showing how WWII Germany’s treatment of Juden is echoed by Israel’s treatment of Palestinians;

    …using “Christianish” alongside “Jewish;”

    …critiquing jew antiteutonism;

    …asking if the Amish killed Christ;

    …interrogating why it’s kosher that jew males chant: “Blessed are you, LORD our God, Ruler of the universe, Who has not made me a woman;”

    …counter-attacking any and all who slander Whites and the civilizations they created; and

    …calling the oppression of whites a “pogrom.”

    Per the latter: Whites, thus far, have lost sundry culture battles because they ignored and/or downplayed the critical role of language in human affairs. Propaganda works only when (1) lies are constantly repeated and (2) never challenged.

    So don’t let any slur pass unrebutted!

    Now, some final thoughts…

    anonymous[324]: Ancient Persia and India were anti-slave, more advanced and spiritual and humane in many ways.

    The same “advanced, spiritual, humane” Persia that created an “empire” and tried to colonize Greece several times via playing pattycakes?

    And India “anti-slave”? Tell that to Dalits!

    “Early sources suggest that slavery was likely to have been a widespread institution in ancient India by the lifetime of the Buddha (sixth century BCE), and perhaps even as far back as the Vedic period” ~Wiki

    Even today: “India has the highest number of slaves in the world, with estimates ranging from 14 million to 18 million people.”

    Jack McArthur: I made several posts on Unz relating to Hyksos, Jews and the Exodus

    The non-existent, made up (Kwanzaa-like) Exodus?

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-biblical-exodus-story-is-fiction_b_1408123

    Aeschylus…acknowledges that the earliest colonizers…were black

    Yasssss! Mbutu Greeks like PlaToYoBro. DemosTakeKnees. Cadillac Aeschylade. EuripidesPantz. Plus WuhSappho? and EuclidInMe?

    obwandiyag: So the only purpose for all of ancient history is to prove whites superior.

    It’d be hard not to, given the mountain of evidence proving White creativity, perseverance, advancements, and accomplishments.

    Now riddle us this, Bat Guano: do modren BLM zist ony tuh diss wypipo?

    Why not sacrifice another chicken, Gay Idnaw-Bo. Then ask the Great Gizzard to reveal the wonders of Wakanda to us again..like George telling Lenny about them thar rabbits.

    • Thanks: mark green
  61. Iris says:
    @Jack McArthur

    It is not just the African features and types, it is also the kinky breaded hair and the skin color of hundreds of artefacts widely visible to the day. There are hundred of such pieces at the British Museum in London.

    Before Covid hit, there was a Tutankhamun exhibition touring Europe. I saw it several times, I just could not tire of the beauty, the delicacy, the incredible refinement of the artefacts. The sophistication is otherworldly, hard to believe even considering modern craftmanship techniques available today.

    Well, the main guy, Tutankhamun himself, is totally Black. Not Brown, or Black-ish, but really Black as night. Why would that be, if not for the majority of his subjects being Black too?

    • LOL: Bombercommand
    • Replies: @Anon Anon
  62. @Iris

    I won’t plead guilty to an error I didn’t make. I wrote that black pseudo-scholars promoted the Nubian fiction; I never wrote that the thesis you call a breakthrough—how’s that for a bit of editorializing!—was something they devised themselves. I move for a directed verdict of acquittal.

    On the other hand, I did write “the Greeks of antiquity” when I meant and hence should have written “the Greek civilization of antiquity.” Guilty with extenuation.

    As for Diop’s thesis, with its upside-down notion that Egypt was fundamentally black, no more needs to be said of it than has been said for seventy years.

    • Replies: @Iris
  63. @Malaparte

    Very interesting stuff, Malaparte. I had simply assumed that The Wheel and The Horse evolved concurrently, an error on my part. From your link, which I bookmarked, The Wheel seems to have been in use 1000 years before The Horse was domesticated, or at least the ancestor of all modern horses was domesticated. Interestingly, the area of the Volga/Don Rivers, the origin point of The Horse according to your link, is within, but at the extreme eastern edge, of the postulated area of the origin of The Wheel. Certainly, The Wheel does not require The Horse. Oxen and Donkeys are suitable, perhaps more suitable, than the fragile, but high-status Horse. I think your most important point is a refutation of the “single replacement theory” of horseback riding Yamnaya males exterminating West European males and taking over. Many White Nationalist bloggers support this. It seems, from your quoted texts, that Europeans are the result of a series of waves of migration from the East, which were additive. This process continued into the historical era with The Goths, The Huns, and to a lesser extent The Mongols, all of which represented surging migrations from an inhospitable Central Asian steppe that bred some very tough customers.

    • Replies: @Malaparte
  64. @Iris

    Diop claimed that SubSaharan Africans were the Ancient Egyptians. Diop is a total idiot, and wrong about everything. There is zero evidence that SubSaharan Africans contributed anything, culturally or genetically, to Ancient Egypt. But of course, someone who is stupid enough to believe that the Apollo moon landings are a hoax, might be stupid enough to believe Diop.

    • LOL: Iris
  65. Robjil says:

    Ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome were all great cultures.

    They were great cultures because they held their own values. No one other culture was behind the scenes tormenting them. They did not have “a behind the scenes culture” holding a sword over them like the culture we have been in living in the past 100 years in west.

    Greek culture gave the world such beautiful artwork – vases, sculptures, and architecture. It was unique for that alone.Egypt also gave the world beautiful artwork – paintings, sculpture and architecture. It was also unique in its own way in that too. Rome did the same in its architecture and sculpture. Roman paintings did not survive as much as from ancient Greece and Egypt. Greek paintings survived on vases. Egypt paintings survived with the artwork in the tombs.

    All cultures that held their own without “a behind the scenes rulers” are very interesting to study. Our culture of the past 100 will not be so interesting to study, since it did not hold its own. An overlord culture ruled it. Ironically or not so ironically, D-day operation was labeled “Operation Overlord.”

    I think that is what the author of this book is saying. We have to return to a time when cultures of the world can hold their own again. It is not only about ancient Greece. It about celebrating any culture that held its own without any overlord culture dictating them.

    • Thanks: Iris
  66. @Bombercommand

    The wheel was first fabricated and used massively in India in the Dravidian civilizations of Monendjo Daro and Harappa : it was not a White civilization, though it was not at all a Negro one neither. The Aryans slowly arrived (not as brutal invaders but as cow-boy manpower) and then adopted it the first among their brethren before other Aryans used it as massively. India was decidedly the first country to make a massive use of the invention of the wheel (not to be confused with a sporadic one being limited to battles). Most inventions that ended up being most useful to Whites were not White inventions.

    • Replies: @Anon Anon
    , @Bombercommand
  67. Iris says:
    @Pierre de Craon

    I never wrote that the thesis you call a breakthrough—how’s that for a bit of editorializing!

    It is not “editorializing”: Cheik Anta Diop’s thesis was so important that it lead to questioning the very basics of Humankind’s History in the 1974 Cairo International Symposium organised by Unesco, Unesco being the foremost global cultural studies organisation, and the custodian of human civilisational heritage.

    This symposium, at a time where healthy intellectual competition and unbound dialectics were still possible due to the Cold War, saw the overwhelming victory of Diop’s thesis, with Unesco acknowledging that Ancient Egypt was of Black African origin.

    Today, of course, official history has tremendously progressed, which, unchallenged, promotes Dallas’ “Magic Bullet”, the “Saturn V” engine which miracles no one can replicate 50 years on, the magical “gas chambers” open to the external atmosphere, the office fires able to collapse sky-scrappers into their own footprint and to reduce people into mince meat, etc…

    We are way more intelligent, and won’t be fooled by those African historians. LOL, just LOL.

    • Agree: Robjil
    • Replies: @Pierre de Craon
  68. @anon

    The Catholic Church, of which I have been a faithful son for my entire life—for much of it in the Church’s unwarped pre-Vatican II form—has never shared your dismissive attitude toward ancient Greece (especially ancient Athens) or ancient Rome, nor has the great mass of other Christians. On the contrary, while looking without intellectual or moral blinders at all of its failings, Christian saints and scholars have seen in ancient Athens, especially in what we know of the thinking of its three great philosophers, unexampled (and since then seldom approached) insights into the being and nature of the One God and of the essential components of the virtuous life, the kind of life without which the individual soul’s salvation in the world to come is inconceivable. Whatever their faults, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle and the society that they briefly addressed did not have these insights handed to them on the silver platter of divine revelation, unlike the ancient Hebrews.

    Much the same can be said of the overall Christian attitude toward ancient Rome, especially if you begin with the pagan Roman whom the Church esteems above all others, Cicero. Although the Roman persecutions of the faithful long seemed to be unmatchable in severity, persistence, and sheer cruelty—at least before Lenin and the Bolsheviks raised the bar for all three to once unthinkable heights—the desire of the Romans to embrace truth, specifically the Truth of the Faith, when, try as they might, they could no longer find a way to deny where it lay, has also earned them the gratitude of the Church. All Christians, I suggest, should follow suit, especially given the by no means unqualified, unnuanced character of their historical admiration.

    Whatever my reservations (I have several) about the correctness of Guillaume Durocher’s understanding of the ancient pagan world, I count myself a disciple of Augustine, Boethius, Aquinas, and many others in believing that to lose an appreciation of Greek antiquity’s merits is to lose a crucial component of understanding how and why the Christian West came to be and why it is worth fighting to prevent its enemies, (((one enemy))) especially, from destroying it utterly and finally.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Jack McArthur
    , @Seraphim
  69. Anon Anon says:
    @Iris

    You are so full of it, I have seen countless artifacts they all portray a people of broadly west asian(Using this term to refer to all “middle easterners” and not Iranians and other such peoples.) ancestry including the ones the guy you are responding to linked and the statue you posted, lastly we have countless other depictions of King Tut from other artifacts that are supposed to depict scenes of his life that are colored and he is not depicted as completely black, in fact one of them depicts him slaughtering coal black Nubians by the dozens. If one where to explain this one depiction in the context of ancient Egyptian culture the answer is obvious; the Egyptians coded Gods of the underworld as being pure black(In contrast to White for gods of the earth and Green for gods of the heavens.) in coloration and this depiction is supposed to represent an apotheosis of Tut after death.

  70. Anonimko says:

    So-called ‘ancient’ Greek history (so as Roman) was heavily falsified. The ‘West’ stretched back in time this history and appropriated, leaving impression of very long western history. This ‘western’ history came from Russian steppes, brought by nomads who were on much lower level of culture comparing to indigenous European people. Greeks officially entered the world history with first ‘Olympic games’, i.e. several hundreds of years after the Trojan battle. At that time, they even did not have this name (who gave them the name?) and did not know for Mt. Olympus. How it is possible that they had ‘Olympic’ mythology 900 years before they actually saw the Mt. Olympus. Greek were not indigenous in today’s Greece, they came from Egypt/Middle East. Greeks and their original language were NOT ‘Indo-European’. Athens ‘democracy’ was actually the tribal system in comparison to Spartans meritocracy system. Greeks did not have their own state until 1829AC. Homer and Alexander the Great were NOT Greeks. There are so many other things.

  71. @Iris

    … Unesco being the foremost global cultural studies organisation, and the custodian of human civilisational heritage.

    Here, rather than later in your comment, is where you should have typed LOL.

    The UN, in all of its many subdivisions and activities, has been since its founding an enemy of the West and an enemy of the Cross. Thank you for identifying your own loyalties with such clarity.

    • Agree: René Fries
    • Replies: @Bubba
    , @Allan
  72. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malaparte

    But there’s a fatal flaw with this theory, which is that R1b groups entered and spread across Europe long before the horse was mastered for purposes of raiding and warfare. Although Mycenaean Greece may itself have been the product of a late-stage takeover by Steppe warriors circa 1600 BCE (see the work of Robert Drews), the wider West European world has no such legacy or cultural foundation. We are not the descendants of Aryan conquerors. Rather, we are the children of the all the different peoples who combined to make modern Europeans.

    The domestication of the horse have been a long process uniquely lincked to ancestors of proto indo europeans . In the samara culture the ancestors of proto indo europeans the first horse burial of the world were found , grave offerings included ornaments depicting horses , and an overburden of horse remains in the graves , A practice that would gain inertia with the khavalisnk culture , a leap in to the future and yamnaya the vector of the expansion of PIE had already protein of horses milk(the first found in the world) sugesting it was domesticated the same way the sheep or the goat were , the Equus milk peptides from the protein is found 2 of 17 Early Bronze Age individuals not as widespread as in the Middle Late Bronze Age but existant nonetheless when 15 of 19 individuals analized were positive for evidence of ruminant milk consumption.

    “During the Early Bronze Age, populations of the western Eurasian steppe expanded across an immense area of northern Eurasia. Combined archaeological and genetic evidence supports widespread Early Bronze Age population movements out of the Pontic–Caspian steppe that resulted in gene flow across vast distances, linking populations of Yamnaya pastoralists in Scandinavia with pastoral populations (known as the Afanasievo) far to the east in the Altai Mountains1,2 and Mongolia3. Although some models hold that this expansion was the outcome of a newly mobile pastoral economy characterized by horse traction, bulk wagon transport4,5,6 and regular dietary dependence on meat and milk5, hard evidence for these economic features has not been found. Here we draw on proteomic analysis of dental calculus from individuals from the western Eurasian steppe to demonstrate a major transition in dairying at the start of the Bronze Age. The rapid onset of ubiquitous dairying at a point in time when steppe populations are known to have begun dispersing offers critical insight into a key catalyst of steppe mobility. The identification of horse milk proteins also indicates horse domestication by the Early Bronze Age, which provides support for its role in steppe dispersals. Our results point to a potential epicentre for horse domestication in the Pontic–Caspian steppe by the third millennium bc, and offer strong support for the notion that the novel exploitation of secondary animal products was a key driver of the expansions of Eurasian steppe pastoralists by the Early Bronze Age.”

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03798-4

    In the end not only are europeans the childrens of proto indo europeans genetically linguistically and culturally ( or at they were ) but the people who spread around eurasia and who call thenselfs aryans are basically europeans that after mixing in central europe they moved to steppe displacing yamnaya .

    “The authors of the study found the Sintashta people to be closely genetically related to the people of the Corded Ware culture, the Srubnaya culture, the Potapovka culture, and the Andronovo culture. These were found to harbor mixed ancestry from the Yamnaya culture and peoples of the Central European Middle Neolithic.[g][h] Sintashta people were deemed “genetically almost indistinguishable” from samples taken from the northwestern areas constituting the core of the Andronovo culture, which were “genetically largely homogeneous”. The genetic data suggested that the Sintashta culture was ultimately derived of a remigration of Central European peoples with steppe ancestry back into the steppe.”

    Genetic distance to sintashta ( the aryans )

    https://ibb.co/tpvrXtc

    • Replies: @Malaparte
  73. @Mulegino1

    Thank you.

    Are you as surprised as I am about the overall character of the comments in this thread—specifically, about the extent of the hostility toward, not just MacDonald’s essay or Durocher’s book, but pagan Greco-Roman antiquity in toto? Or should I have seen this coming?

    Like the (((Antifa mob))) that runs the New York Times and editorializes daily about heretofore unsuspected venues of white supremacy past and present, many of this thread’s commenters have at least a visceral sense that “the Christian West” or “white societies”—whichever characterization one prefers, since to their enemies they are geographically coextensive, however noumenally distinct they are—will never be totally erased until their white populations agree to the cancellation of these cornerstones of their past. Like the good soldiers they are, they are giving their all in the attack, however poor their aim and decayed their ammunition.

    • Agree: mark green, Mulegino1
    • Replies: @Malaparte
  74. Anon[259] • Disclaimer says:
    @Pierre de Craon

    @ I count myself a disciple of Augustine, Boethius, Aquinas, and many others in believing that to lose an appreciation of Greek antiquity’s merits..

    Bravo.

    • Thanks: Pierre de Craon
  75. @geokat62

    Why would you put a dissertation on a blog post? Especially when what you say can be summarized in a sentence?

  76. @anonymous

    Gore Vidal gives us the Persian viewpoint on the smelly barbaric hayseed Greeks and their lying historians in Creation.

  77. Lots of ancient Greeks fought on the Persian side. Gladly. They like the Persian side better. Less treacherous.

  78. Joe Wong says:
    @anonymous

    There are so little actual time documented history of the West before modern time, therefore Kevin MacDonald is trying to fabricate a root of Indo-European civilization from the thin air to reinforce what the West has been glorifying themselves thru imagation in the last few hundred years.

    Even the Greek victory over Persian is a hearsay, other things passed down about the Greece and Roman are myths, legends, poets, but documented facts.

    Kevin MacDonald glossed over European’s unorganized backward and primitive tribal behavior before modern era as individualism and aristocratic is out of touch of reality and mind-boggling.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  79. Anon Anon says:
    @Francis Miville

    What? There exists no solid consensus about the origin of the Wheel but no one has suggested it originated in pre-Indoeuropean india, the most solid proposed nonIndoeuropean origin is that the Mesopotamians invented it but this is not a certainty as there is as much evidence for wheeled vehicles being used by first used by them as there is evidence for it being first used by Indoeuropeans. But the idea that indoeuropeans learned of it from Dravidians is completely absurd as the arrival of Indoeuropeans to India(Around 1000 bc) greatly postdates the presence of wheels in Europe. (4000-3000 bc) It is however known for a fact that spoked wheels and the subsequent development of true chariots originated with the Indoeuropeans around 2000 bc. And also; no your idea that Whites did not invent most useful things is far from true.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel#History

  80. Seraphim says:
    @Chinaman's Nightmare

    Some Jews were maybe doing it, but they were not considering it natural and laudable. On the contrary they were condemning it in the strongest terms:
    ”You must not lie with a man as with a woman; that is an abomination. 23You must not lie carnally with any animal, thus defiling yourself with it; a woman must not stand before an animal to mate with it; that is a perversion.…Do not defile yourselves by any of these practices, for by all these things the nations I am driving out before you have defiled themselves.…(Leviticus 18: 22-24).
    ”If a man lies with a man as with a woman, they have both committed an abomination. They must surely be put to death; their blood is upon them” (Leviticus 20:13).
    ” Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.” (1 Cor. 1:24-27).
    But of course you are one who revile and condemn ‘Judeo-Christianity’ precisely for the ‘persecution of the gays’.
    Remember what happened to Sodom.

    • Replies: @Arthur MacBride
  81. Joe Wong says:
    @SomeoneInAsia

    Based on modern history, the Anglo-Saxon’s forte is racial genocide, while the French’s forte is culture genocide. Wherever the French arrived they carried out culture genocide immediately, Vietnam is the prime example of French’s culture genocide.

    What René Fries did here is the tradition of French since Montesquieu (Charles-Louis de Secondat), in order to show the virtuous and pristine of the West, the French hence the Westerner only needs to show how bad is the East, then they say they are not the East, and they are the other side of the bad guy, the East.

    René Fries just follows the blue print laid down by his ancestors to demonizing the East in order to claim the moral high ground they never deserve it, entitle it and work for it.

    • Disagree: Anon Anon
  82. Bubba says:
    @Priss Factor

    Seems like Rich Lowry is doing a marketing test run through the brainwashed young college R’s to seek additional funding for his Conservative, Inc. National Review salary.

    If it works, maybe he’ll target transgender alpha males next Christmas season.

  83. Malaparte says:
    @Bombercommand

    “I think your most important point is a refutation of the “single replacement theory” of horseback riding Yamnaya males exterminating West European males and taking over. Many White Nationalist bloggers support this. It seems, from your quoted texts, that Europeans are the result of a series of waves of migration from the East, which were additive. This process continued into the historical era with The Goths, The Huns, and to a lesser extent The Mongols, all of which represented surging migrations from an inhospitable Central Asian steppe that bred some very tough customers.”

    To be clear, I consider myself to be something of a White Nationalist, insofar as I believe European peoples have a right to self-determination and their own sovereign states, a right that I would extend to all races and peoples across the globe. France should be for the French, Italy for Italians, Germany for Germans, and the USA will hopefully splinter into several independent states, including a European-derived ethnostate, and, why not, even a liberal cosmopolitan state for those who still enjoy that kind of thing.

    What I object to with MacDonald and Duchesne is not their political agenda, with which I am largely sympathetic, but their false arguments about the origins & principal components of the European soul. In particular, they valorize & romanticize Steppe warriors from whom Central & Western Europeans are *not* in fact descended. Our egalitarian & moralistic tendencies come from the hunter-gatherers; I forgot what, if anything, they credit to Anatolian farmers; and our greatest cultural trait, “aristocratic individualism,” allegedly comes from Aryan conquerors on horseback.

    I do not have my copies of Duchesne’s books on hand, so permit to quote at length this interview of Duchesne, in which he explicitly reveals how his otherwise convincing phenomenology of Western individualism is founded on pure Nietzschean myth:

    “The first cultural signs of individualism are to be found in history only with the horse riding Indo-European aristocratic warriors who came storming out of the Pontic Steppes in the fourth millennium BC. Indo-European (IE) societies were uniquely ruled by aristocratic men living in a state of permanent mobility and adversity for whom the highest value in life was heroic struggle to the death for pure prestige. It was out of this struggle for renown by aristocratic men seeking recognition from their aristocratic peers that the separation and freedom of humans from the undifferentiated world of nature and the undifferentiated world of collectivist-despotic societies was fostered . . . .

    “The IEs created a new type of aristocratic society in the sense that “some men,” not just the king, were free to deliberate over major issues affecting the group, as well as free to strive for personal recognition. The material origins of this aristocratic individualist ethos are to be found in the unique pastoral lifestyle of the IEs, their original domestication and riding of horses, their co-invention of wheeled vehicles in the fourth millennium BC, together with the efficient exploitation of the « secondary products » of domestic animals (dairy products, textiles, harnessing), all of which gave IEs a more robust physical anthropology and the most dynamic way of life in their time. This horse-riding lifestyle included fierce competition for grazing rights, constant alertness in the defense of one’s portable wealth, and an expansionist disposition in a world where competing herdsmen were motivated to seek new pastures as well as tempted to take the movable wealth of their neighbors . . . .

    “It was Nietzsche who inspired me to think that the active originators of Western Civilization were not priests, not bookish men sitting on desks, not ideas and institutions, not technological changes and geographical factors—however important these were, but aristocratic men performing great deeds. As Goethe said, “in the beginning were great deeds.” I found Nietzsche’s short essay, “Homer on Competition” incredibly intuitive, his argument that the greatness of classical Greece involved putting Apollonian limits around the indispensable but excessive and brutal Dionysian impulses of barbaric pre-Homeric Greeks. I also learned a lot from his emphasis on the nature of existence as strife, and his insight that not all cultures have handled nature’s inherent strife in the same way, and that not all cultures have been equally proficient in the sublimated production of creative individuals. He taught me that “every elevation of the type ‘man’ has hitherto been the work of an aristocratic society.” I added to Nietzsche the historically based argument that the Greeks (and Europeans generally) viewed life as strife to a higher degree than other people because of their Indo-European aristocratic background, and I also added that only the Aryans were really aristocratic.”

    http://gregoirecanlorbe.com/a-conversation-with-ricardo-duchesne-for-the-occidental-observer

    Don’t get me wrong. Duchesne is brilliant. There is much to admire in his thinking in the passages I quoted above. But it simply is not true that Central & Western Europeans are the descendants of Aryan warrior on chariot & horse. On the contrary, our ancestors defended Europe from all such Steppe incursions. And to the extent that we have Steppe ancestry, it is either ancestry from the “Forest Steppe” found today in Germanic & Baltic peoples–ain’t much horse raiding in the forest!!!–or else ancestry from Yamnaya-related R1b groups that entered Europe long before the advent of highly mobile horse warfare and which admixed very early one with haplogroup-G2a affiliated farming populations in the Baden culture, and which then dispersed throughout Western Europe with the Bell Beaker phenomenon. The only exception to the foregoing is Mycenae, which may in fact have been founded by proper Aryan (IE) warrior elites.

    In short, it does our ancestors a disservice to attribute there accomplishments to an Aryan Steppe that they never experienced or derived from

    • Replies: @Pierre de Craon
    , @Seraphim
  84. Bubba says:
    @Pierre de Craon

    The UN, in all of its many subdivisions and activities, has been since its founding an enemy of the West and an enemy of the Cross.

    Thank you for your excellent comment.

    • Thanks: Pierre de Craon
  85. Joe Wong says:
    @Joe Wong

    We have been taught, inside the classroom and outside of it, that there exists an entity called the West, and that one can think of this Est as a society and civilization independent of and in opposition to other societies and civilizations [i.e. the East]. Many of us even grew up believing that this West has [an autonomous] genealogy according to which ancient Greece begat Rome, Rome begat Christian Europe, Christian Europe begat the Renaissance, the Renaissance the Enlightenment, the Enlightenment political democracy and the industrial revolution. Industry crossed with democracy, in turn yield the United States, embodying the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness . . . [This is] misleading, first, because it turns history into a moral success story, a race in time in which each [Western] runner of the race passes on the torch of liberty to the next relay. History is thus converted into a tale about the furtherance of virtue, about how the virtuous [i.e. the West] win out over the bad guys [the East]. – Eric Wolf

    This article is a member of this long list of moral success story, a fabrication of long long fake historical narrative.

    • Agree: Iris
    • Disagree: Anon Anon
    • Replies: @Malaparte
    , @Iris
  86. Malaparte says:
    @Anon

    Certainly there was an expansion out of the Steppe grasslands into Europe, and from the forest Steppe into points further north in Europe, but these expansions occurred in the main long before the appearance of highly mobile, militarized, horse-led warfare. This means that Western Europeans, far from being the descendants of noble Aryans on chariot & horseback, descend from populations that successfully resisted all such incursions from the Steppe. They may have adopted Steppe innovations, but that is the extent of it.

    • Replies: @Anon
  87. Anonymous[390] • Disclaimer says:

    @ Anon192
    Another heavily falsified topic and this is a reason that so-called Aryan issue could not be solved for 200 years. Just quick references on some points.

    The term ‘(Proto)Indo-European’ is meaningless and without substance. Yamnaya nomads (R1b), the ancestors of today’s ‘westerners’ came to Europe 2800-2500BC. Their language was NOT sc. ‘Indo-European’ and did NOT influence other Euro and some Asian languages. They were NOT Aryans, who brought Sanskrit and Rg Veda to India. The key falsification here is the ignorance of ‘Old Europe’ culture, several 000 of years older than Yamnaya, which practiced agriculture, had first industrial revolution 8000 BC, knew for metallurgy, gold processing, , trade, buildings, multistory temples, astronomy, mathematics, wheel, literacy, etc. etc. They had horses before Yamnaya came and made cheese 7500 years ago. Their language was brought to India where became Sanskrit. Which modern language is the most similar to Sanskrit? And yes, at that time Greeks did not exist, these indigenous people lived in the today’s Greece, they gave to further Greeks the name, the language and mythology. Yamnaya nomads families just followed their herds and did not know for metal and agriculture before their arrival to Europe. The modern language which is the most similar to Sanskrit will discover who were Aryans.

  88. Malaparte says:
    @Pierre de Craon

    My loyalty is entirely to Europe & the West. I am a great admirer of Germanic Christianity and the pagan culture of Greece & Rome. I therefore look forward to reading Durocher’s book in a few months, when I will have more free time. And I believe that Ricardo Duchesne’s “Uniqueness of the West” is a vitally important work. I just happen to think that Duchesne and MacDonald give far too much credit to the experience of the Steppe, to the point that it distorts their thinking. The greatness of Europe lies within Europe itself.

    • Replies: @Pierre de Craon
  89. @Pierre de Craon

    I do not cite wikipedians. The citations given in the article are scholarly. If you disagree then provide verifiable sources that contradict.

    The linking of the expulsion of the Hyksos to the Greek texts as I have done above is not my invention and nor is it recent. See Cambridge Ancient History, Volume II, Part 1, pp. 635-638.

    That Nubians were in alliance with the Hyksos:

    In a communique intercepted by Theban troops in the Libyan Desert, Apophis, the Hyksos king, requested assistance from his Kushite ally because of Kamose’s attacks on the Delta
    (Aspects of Egyptian Foreign Policy in the 18th Dynasty in Western Asia and Nubia, James K. Hoffmeier)

    My speculation that Nubians could have been in the Hyksos contingents which headed for the Aegean is therefore not groundless and is supported by Ancient Greek texts which refer to blacks.

    Regarding the ethnicity of the Israelites:

    The consensus of modern scholars is that the Torah does not give an accurate account of the origins of the Israelites, who appear instead to have formed as an entity in the central highlands of Canaan in the late second millennium BCE from the indigenous Canaanite culture.[3][4][5]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus#Reliability_of_the_biblical_account

    The linking of the Hyksos expulsion with the Exodus is not fringe.

    The expulsion of the Hyksos may not have been a single event, and many still read Manetho’s texts on the Hyksos expulsion as a record of the Israelites’ Exodus. After the Hyksos were defeated by Ahmose,
    https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/news/the-expulsion-of-the-hyksos/

    The expulsion of the Hyksos, a Semitic group that had conquered much of Egypt, by the Seventeenth Dynasty of Egypt is also frequently discussed as a potential historical parallel or origin for the story.[46][47][48]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus#Reliability_of_the_biblical_account

    The scholar whose opinion you seem to dismiss despite the multiple awards he has been given is a Christian.

  90. Malaparte says:
    @Joe Wong

    “This article is a member of this long list of moral success story, a fabrication of long long fake historical narrative.”

    No, this article is about the unrivaled political wisdom of the Greeks, in particular Aristotle

  91. No nation state thrives without a subservient slave caste to do the heavy lifting. While compensation varies from place to place, in most, it’s just enough to keep barbarians from burn loot murdering and raping their masters sons and daughters.
    What we’re witnessing now is a slave revote on government plantations by career criminal blacks exercising their new found (((Cybil Rites))) that guarantees black aspiring gangsta rappers legal immunity from most crimes as seen on TV and other outlets. BLM hoodrats have gone full on smash-snatch’n-grab, temporarily replacing burning the town centers down until the next nigga refuses to obey a simple police order and gets his black azz terminated.

  92. @Pierre de Craon

    Christian saints and scholars have seen in ancient Athens, especially in what we know of the thinking of its three great philosophers, unexampled (and since then seldom approached) insights into the being and nature of the One God and of the essential components of the virtuous life, the kind of life without which the individual soul’s salvation in the world to come is inconceivable.

    Some balance:

    Worldly wisdom culminates in philosophy with its rash interpretation of God’s nature and purpose. It is philosophy that supplies the heresies with their equipment. . . . The idea of a mortal soul was picked up from the Epicureans, and the denial of the restitution of the flesh was taken from the common tradition of the philosophical schools. . . . Heretics and philosophers [ponder] the same themes and are caught up in the same discussions. What is the origin of evil and why? The origin of man, and how?. . . A plague on Aristotle, who taught them dialectic [logical argumentation), the art which destroys as much as it builds, which changes its opinions like a coat, forces its conjectures, is stubborn in argument, works hard at being contentious and is a burden even to itself. For it reconsiders every point to make sure it never finishes a discussion.

    From philosophy come those fables and fruitless questionings, those “words that creep like as doth a canker.” To hold us back from such things, the Apostle [Paul] testifies expressly in his letter to the Colossians [Colossians 2:8] that we should beware of philosophy. “Take heed lest any man [beguile] you through philosophy or vain deceit, after the tradition of men,” against the providence of the Holy Ghost. He had been at Athens where he had come to grips with the human wisdom which attacks and perverts truth, being itself divided up into its own swarm of heresies by the variety of its mutually antagonistic sects.

    What has Jerusalem to do with Athens, the Church with (Plato’s) Academy, the Christian with the heretic? Our principles come from the Porch of Solomon, who had himself taught that the Lord is to be sought in simplicity of heart. I have no use for a Stoic or a Platonic or a dialectic Christianity. After Jesus Christ we have no need of speculation, after the Gospel no need of research. When we come to believe, we have no desire to believe anything else; for we begin by believing that there is nothing else which we have to believe.

    Cicero was greatly admired by influential Church Fathers such as Augustine of Hippo, who credited Cicero’s lost Hortensius for his eventual conversion to Christianity,[125] and St. Jerome, who had a feverish vision in which he was accused of being “follower of Cicero and not of Christ” before the judgment seat.[126]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero

  93. Anonymous[390] • Disclaimer says:

    So distorted picture. ‘Horseback riding Yamnaya males’ did NOT exterminate West Europeans. They were Ancestors of today’s West Europeans and exterminated indigenous people of Vinca civilisation and took their women. They were not ‘aristocratic’, they were nomads on very low cultural level and ‘the most murderous group’ in human history. Europe did not know for wars for thousands of years until Yamnaya, ancestors of today’s ‘westerners’ came. Since 3000 BC up to today we have continuous wars in Europe, caused mostly by Yamnaya descendants.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  94. The first quotation is Tertullian’s well known “What has Jerusalem to do with Athens?”

  95. @Pierre de Craon

    According to a near consensus of professional present-day archaeologists and of their colleagues going back roughly seventy-five years, any connection between the Hyksos and the Hebrews ends there.

    The citations I have already given do indeed draw connections between the Hyksos and the Hebrews via the Exodus. This is not fringe.

    Proponents of the historicity of the transition between Genesis and Exodus—the Joseph story—often see the so-called Hyksos rulers of the Egyptian Fifteenth Dynasty (ca. 1640–1550 1) as ethnically analogous to the earliest “Israelites.” This view places the “Sons of Israel” (or “Hebrews”) in Egypt in preparation for the exodus and views their subsequent migration from Egypt as a memory of the Egyptian expulsion of the Hyksos recorded in ancient texts.2
    (Joseph the Infiltrator, Jacob the Conqueror? Reexamining the Hyksos–Hebrew Correlation, Journal of Biblical Literature 136, no. 1 (2017)

  96. Anon[400] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malaparte

    You are only playing with a ridiculously reduccionist conception of what aryans are supossed to mean when its evident that proto indo europeans like i showed were just a primitive version of the chariot militarized aristocracy of the late middle bronce age that spread across eurasia. The language , the gods , myths , genetics, the early domestication of the horse all can be ultimely trace back to proto indo europeans that formed the etnocultural identity of the european people

    In one thing you are correct we are not the childrens of the aryans, we are the aryans , the steppe mlba ” chariot aristocracy formed ultimely in central europe ultimely as a mix of yamnaya and neholitic farmers before reemigrating again to the steppe .

    • Replies: @Malaparte
  97. Anon[400] • Disclaimer says:

    I know a lot of good hearted and smart european nationalist that reject any relation with our indo european heritage or any modern european colonialism expansionism for that matter calling those russians , spaniard and english conquerors and builders as peasants that escaped from europe and cant be anymore considered part of the family anymore.

    Is the only way they think they can morally justify our existance and built a founding myth that could make peace with the world to built a kind of ” international nationalism” . Maybe is the smart thing to do i dont know , but its ultimely FALSE

  98. @Malaparte

    I thank you for your comments. I share Bombercommand’s reaction that they make very interesting reading, in my case not least because the movements of peoples in prehistory is an area of study about which I know almost nothing, and what little I do know derives from Duchesne at second hand via Kevin MacDonald.

  99. JWalters says:
    @Fart Blossom

    I fully agree. The obsession with the white race seems to render some people blind to many things in other cultures, and their own culture!.

    • Agree: Iris
    • Replies: @Pierre de Craon
  100. Iris says:
    @Joe Wong

    This article is a member of this long list of moral success story, a fabrication of long long fake historical narrative.

    Indeed, and it is a poor fabrication at that.

    It beggars belief that such profound imbecilities can be written in 2021. The civilisations that made up the world are of diverse origins, and the greatest ones preceded the West’s without possible discussion.

    The Fertile Crescent (Mesopotamia, Syria and Egypt) is called by scholars the Cradle of Civilisation for a reason: it is where our Western civilisation started.
    On the other hand, China’s civilisation was extremely advanced and accomplished at the same time as Egypt’s and owes nothing to the Western hemisphere.

    There are fine and educated thesis explaining why the West succeeded and dominated the rest of the world. Its heightened sense of competition and subsequent ruthlessness, which developed because Europe was a relatively small territory concentrating a high density of small powers warring for centuries, is one plausible explanation. It was laid out by historian Paul Kennedy in his outstanding “Rise and Fall of Great Powers”.

  101. @Sepp

    Those Greek city states were not only “mono-ethnic”, they were also small.

    There is no point that is more critical than this when it comes to properly understanding the nature of Hellenic-era Greek life. Its greatest importance attaches to understanding the virtues, defects, and most of all, the functional limits of genuine democracy—a form of governance that has worked as intended only in the poleis and perhaps, just perhaps, for a short time in a few locales in pre-1787 USA.*

    It is helpful to recall that one of the most famous quotations from antiquity—Aristotle’s statement in the Politics that “Man is a political animal [zoon politikón]”—embodies a significant mistranslation. A rendering such as “Man is a creature native to the polis” better conveys what the words mean. In part because of this fundamental confusion, much of what Aristotle taught and believed about politics and, in a wider sense, all societal relations has been misunderstood, in ways both large and small.
    __________
    *For those who think that women’s participation in governance is essential, genuine democracy has probably never been seen anywhere. If I recall aright, even Roger Williams never went so far as to allow women a voice in political decision making. Not that that would have stopped a woman in Providence Plantation from dictating to her hubby what he would say if he knew what was good for him.

  102. Weird article. This website has been publishing a lot of weird articles lately.

    What with all the weird articles, this organ is starting to read like Counterpunch.

  103. @Malaparte

    As you will doubtless see from my comment below, which was in the to-be-published queue before yours appeared, I never meant to include you among the hostile commenters whose number and virulence came as a big surprise to me. Your comments have been of the utmost interest, and I thank you sincerely for them.

    • Thanks: Malaparte
  104. @JWalters

    The obsession with the white race seems to render some people blind …

    If white people had been even a third as “obsessed” with their whiteness as the rest of the world’s tribes and races are with their own defining characteristics, the magnificent societies that present-day whites’ forbears built would not have fallen en masse into the clutches of Jews and other viciously hostile, criminal, parasitic invaders.

    How white is your own neighborhood or community, I wonder. White enough to allow you to feel secure in your moral posturing?

  105. Seraphim says:
    @Pierre de Craon

    To understand the ‘overall Christian attitude toward ancient Rome’ and Hellenic philosophy and science, we must look at the Christianized Roman Empire, from Constantin the First to Constantin the Twelfth, the so-called ‘Byzantium’. At the temple of the ‘Holy Wisdom’, the ‘Logos’. The study of Plato and Aristotle never ceased. The ‘Wise Solon’, the ‘Wise Plato’, the ‘Wise Aristotle’, the ‘Wise Tucydides’, the ‘Wise Plutarch’ were frequently depicted on the frescoes of ‘Byzantine’ Churches (in all the countries of the ‘Byzantine Commonwealth’). Throughout the Byzantine period, Homer remained the most influential ancient author and continued to be considered ‘The Poet’ by excellence. Neither Herodotus and Thucydides have been forgotten. And so on…

  106. Anon[167] • Disclaimer says:

    Greek literature give us a clear picture of the aryanization of the clasical era

    “-Apollo is described by Alceo as “Phoebus with blond hair to whom the daughter of Coos gave birth after joining the illustrious Cronida who dwells in the clouds.”

    The god Radamantis, son of Zeus and Europa, is described as blond in the Odyssey, and Strabo calls him “the blond radamantis” in his Geography (Book III, 11-13).

    Artemis, the sister of Apollo, is described by Sappho and by Anacreonte (Hymn to Artemis), as “blonde daughter of Zeus”.

    Dionysus is called by Hesiod “golden-haired” (Theogony: 947).

    Aphrodite, daughter of Zeus, goddess of love, feminine beauty and eroticism, is always described as blonde. Her conventional title is almost always “Golden Aphrodite”.

    Hecate, goddess of the wilderness and also of the Parthians, is described by an unknown Greek poet as “golden-haired Hecate, daughter of Zeus”.

    Helen, considered the most beautiful woman ever, and indirect cause of the Trojan War, was described by Stesychorus, Sappho (Book I of poems, Alexandrian compilation) and Ibicus as “the blonde Helen” (Ode to Polycrates).

    King Menelaus of Sparta, absolute model of noble warrior, brother of Agamemnon and legitimate husband of Helen, besides being compared to a god “who stood out for his broad shoulders”, is, par excellence, countless times, “the blond Menelaus” both in the Iliad (a minimum of 14 times -III: 284; IV: 183, 210; X: 240; XI: 125; XVII: 6, 18, 113, 124, 578, 673, 684; XXIII: 293, 438) and in the Odyssey.

    Cassandra, the daughter of Agamemnon and sister of Orestes, is described by Philoxenus of Kythera as “golden-curled”, and by Ibicus as “green-eyed Cassandra”.

    Meleager is described as “the blond Meleager” by Homer (Iliad, II: 642) and Apollonius of Rhodes (“Argonautica”) likewise describes him as blond.

    Herakles is described as having a strong constitution and blond and curly hair, among others, by Apollonius of Rhodes (Argonautica).

    Achilles, considered the greatest warrior of the past, present and future, is described as blond by Homer in the Iliad, when he is about to attack Agamemnon and, to prevent it, the goddess Athena restrains him and “grabs him by the blond hair” (I: 197).

    In his Argonautica, Apollonius of Rhodes describes Jason and all the Argonauts as blond. The Argonauts were a männerbund, a confederation of warriors that brought together the first Greek heroes, many of them direct children of gods, who laid the foundations of legends and fathered later heroes, often with divine mediation.

    Among the gods and goddesses, 60 were blondes and 35 were brunettes-and of the brunettes, 29 were kthonian-telluric, marine (such as Poseidon) or Underworld divinities, and who came from the ancient pre-Aryan mythology of Greece. Of the mythological heroes, 140 were blond and 8 were dark-haired.

    We have seen many issues that have to do with mythological characters, which is important because it gives us valuable information about the ideal of divinity and perfection of the ancient Greeks, and points out that in their values they identified with the North and with the “Nordic” racial type. However, Sieglin also took into account the passages where the appearance of real historical characters is described. Thus, of 122 prominent persons of ancient Greece whose appearance is described, 109 were light-haired (blondes or redheads), and 13 were dark-haired. Among the ruddy-haired are, for example, Alcibiades, Alexander the Great, Critias, Demetrius of Phalerus, King Lysimachus, Ptolemy II Philadelphus, Dionysius I of Syracuse, Euripides and King Pyrrhus.”

    • Replies: @geokat62
  107. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    You are perfectly right. The ‘Yamnaya’ people were the ‘prototype’ of the parasite robber nomads, outlaws exiled from the ancient civilizations into wilderness. Parasites do not ‘exterminate’ the host they live off.

  108. Seraphim says:
    @Malaparte

    The ‘Aryan myth’ of ‘aristocratic’ excellence originated in the writings of people uncertain of their ‘nobility’, like the ‘Count’ Henri de Boulainvilliers (1658-1722) and the better known ‘Count’ Joseph Arthur de Gobineau.

    • Replies: @Malaparte
  109. @Seraphim

    In your example of sodomy you err in conflating Jews and Hebrews.

    The word “Jew” first appeared in 1775 and refers mainly to Khazars, a Turkic group, otherwise as a corruption of Judahite.
    “Hebrew” refers to Abraham’s ancestor Eber who was of the city of Ur in Mesopotamia, present-day location Tel el-Muqayyar in Iraq.
    “Semitic” refers to descendents of Shem, one of the three sons of Noah. Jews are not Semitic, but Arabs are …
    Jews themselves admit that they are not Hebrews.

    The Abrahamic Law, which you cite, stands in sharp contrast to the Talmud (meaning Instruction) a large collection of the rulings of rabbi’s. Some of those rabbi’s are so clever that they can out-argue God … The main Talmud (there are two) originated in Babylon —

    “The Babylonian Talmud is based on the mystical religious practices of the Babylonians which were assimilated by the Judahite Rabbis during their Babylonian captivity around 600 B.C.,” wrote Edward Hendrie in Solving the Mystery of Babylon the Great. “The Rabbis then used these occult traditions in place of the word of God.”

    You may know how Jesus of Nazareth addressed all Sadducees and most Pharisees “Serpents ! Race of vipers ! How can you escape the damnation of Hell ?” and quite often in similar terms. So much for Judeo-Christianity …

    Among other vile practices like sex with (very young) children, Jews promote sodomy which has historically been an abomination for Europeans.
    More detail —

    https://biblicisminstitute.wordpress.com/2014/07/27/jesus-was-not-a-jew/

    https://www.ebh.club/jews-are-not-hebrew-christ/

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @René Fries
  110. geokat62 says:
    @Anon

    Cassandra, the daughter of Agamemnon and sister of Orestes…

    Cassandra was a princess of Troy, the daughter of King Priam and Queen Hecuba and the fraternal twin sister of Helenus.

    Perhaps you were thinking of Electra?

  111. Malla says:
    @anonymous

    As well, slavery was not a major part of ancient India, and apparently its caste system involved much more mobility than the modern one, with no ‘untouchables’ of a degraded order …

    What rubbish. The caste system was never mobile. It was a type of slavery, which is why Mahatma Phule described the caste system in his book named ‘Gulamgiri’ or slavery. According to Phule the condition of lower castes was worse than Black slaves of the New World.

    Kingdoms of ancient India as well became the first nations to abolish the death penalty,

    What Hindutva wakanda bullshit!!! Only Brahmans were exempt from the death penalty.

  112. Malla says:
    @Old Brown Fool

    even now a very large bulk of the present Indian population is not descended from those conquerors (

    The only people who have no Aryan/ Steepe ancestry in the Indian subcontinent are South Indian lower castes/dalits/ tribals and maybe some predominantly Mongoloid populations of the East. But South Indian Dalits/Lower castes have Indus Valley ancestry. Except that nearly all Indians have some Aryan ancestry. South Indian upper castes are more Indus Valley Culture ancestry but have Aryan ancestry too. In North India, nearly everybody, including lower castes & jungle tribals have some Aryan ancestry in their ancestry mix along with Australoid, Indus Valley and Mongoloid. Of course upper caste North Indians have more of this Aryan Steppe ancestry, indeed in Reich’s research it was found that North Indian upper caste Hindus had more Northern European ancestry than Armenians/Georgians. That does not mean that we are pure Northern Euros, we are mixed with Australoids and others too.

    And the original Indus Valley people who predated the Aryans in Northern India/Pakistan by many millennia were themselves of the Caucasian type.
    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/scientists-reconstruct-faces-of-indus-valley-people/articleshow/71512919.cms
    Scientists reconstruct faces of Indus Valley people
    “In a first, scientists have generated an accurate facial representation of the Indus Valley Civilization people by reconstructing the faces of two of the 37 individuals who were found buried at the 4,500-year-old Rakhigarhi cemetery.”
    …snip…
    “A multi-disciplinary team of 15 scientists and academics from six different institutes of South Korea, UK and India, applied craniofacial reconstruction (CFR) technique using computed tomography (CT) data of two of the Rakhigarhi skulls, to recreate their faces.”
    …snip…
    “The CFR technology generated faces of the two Rakhigarhi skulls, therefore, is a major breakthrough,” Shinde, a professor at Deccan College Post-Graduate and Research Institute, said. Going by the 3-D video representation of the faces, the two individuals appeared to have Caucasian features with hawk-shaped and Roman noses.”
    ———-
    That is, even before the Aryans came, the originators of the Indus Valley Civilization of India were already of the Caucasian type, not Negroid as some Afrocentrist crackpots claim. Indeed the Rakhigari search have found out that the Indus Valley Civilization people were about 75% Caucasoid and 25% Australoid. When they went into the interior with the coming of the Aryans, by the time they reached South India, mixing with Australoid tribes along the way (and also Mongoloid populations moving in from the East with rice farming like Cambodian rice farmers, Tibeto Burmans etc…) meant that the population became 75% Australoid and 25% Caucasoid. Later Aryan ancestry came into the upper castes of South India like Nayars and Brahmins. It is in South India (and maybe the Brahui of Pakistan) that vestiges of Indus Valley Culture is best preserved today.
    Indeed the Indus Valley Civilization may be even older than the Sumerian/Iraqi and Egyptian/Nile civilizations according to new findings.

    • Thanks: Bombercommand
    • Replies: @Malla
  113. Malla says:
    @Malla

    https://www.ksgindia.com/study-material/news-for-aspirants/21670-faces-of-indus-valley-people-reconstructed.html

    This is what the pre-Aryan Indus Valley People looked like, now believed to be an older civilization than those river civilizations in Iraq and Egypt.
    Ancient Indus Valley Civilization People, of the Caucasoid type.

  114. @Francis Miville

    There is zero evidence that The Wheel “was first fabricated and used massively in India”. Unlike in Europe, where actual wheels and axles have been recovered dating to 3,500BC-3000BC, no wheels of that early date have been recovered in Harappa sites. The earliest find in Harappa is a single bronze figurine depicting a chariot-like(or the remaining fromt half of a four wheeled cart as it does not resemble the front of a chariot) drawn by two bulls, dating to 2000BC. However the latest research suggests this figurine was not produced in Harappa, but in Bactria(just south of the Aral Sea and east of The Caspian). Chariots first appear in Bactria about 2100BC. Meanwhile, in Eastern Europe figurines of wheeled vehicles have been found dating to no later than 4000BC, possibly 4500BC. If you wish to postulate The Wheel was invented in India you must show ACTUAL WHEELS from a date older than 3500BC. In contrast, the dates of European wheels and the dates of the wheel appearing in other civilisations, with China getting the wheel last, around 1200BC, fit neatly in a hypothesis of The Wheel originating in Europe, then radiating outward. Wheel technology spreads quickly, as The Wheel is a mode of long distance transportation so it gets around fast, is highly visible, making a startling impression to even a casual observer, and all elements are easily seen and copied. Contrast this to metallurgy, that can be practised secretly behind closed doors.

  115. Malaparte says:
    @Seraphim

    Gobineau is one of those people that I mean to read, but never get around to reading. My understanding is that he drew a racial distinction between the (supposedly) Germanic aristocratic and priestly ranks of the Ancient Regime and the common people, who were (supposedly) Italo-Celtic, or something to this effect. Leaving aside that Frankish elites mixed with old Roman estate holders very early on in Merovingian times, I accept your suggestion that Gobineau might well be the source of this Aryan myth, which MacDonald and Duchesne try to recuperate.

    In essence, the Aryan myth aims at dividing Europeans along imaginary racial lines. True, Northern Europeans carry more Steppe ancestry than Mediterraneans, but this Steppe ancestry was *already mixed* with Hunter-Gatherer & Early Farmer components at the eastern edge of Europe, in modern-day Romania & Hungary, before expanding westward. The Steppe component was not preserved over generations (let alone millennia) as a marker of aristocratic pedigree. Rather, the mixing began early, and was continuous and thoroughgoing.

    Further, and this is a point that I have tried to make repeatedly in this thread, the Aryans did not invade Europe as mighty conquerors on horseback or chariot. They did not possess overwhelming military prowess. If they had a military advantage, it was at best slight. Why? Because they expanded throughout Europe many centuries *before* the development of horse-driven warfare on the Pontic Steppe. Now it is certainly true that R1b replaced G and I as the predominant male lineage in Central & Western Europe, but one must realize several key points. First, different R1b lines mixed with different G and I lines to form new groupings in, for example, Baden, before pushing westward. It was not a single, monolithic advance of a unified R1b population. Second, the reasons for the greater reproductive success of R1b are to this day obscure, and the reasons may have been different from one situation to the next. But I do not think it was a simple case of R1b males enjoying greater military resources or prestige than other men, whether at the point of first contact, or down through the ages.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  116. Malaparte says:
    @Anon

    I emphasize the point that most of the Steppe ancestry in modern-day Central & Western Europeans spread into these areas many centuries *before* the rise of horse-driven warfare on the Pontic Steppe because Duchesne, on whom MacDonald relies, treats the Experience of the Steppe as a Factor of Primordial Importance in the shaping of European psychology. I think that experience was at best peripheral, Duchesne & MacDonald make it central.

    As a minor point, the Steppe ancestry in modern-day Germans is mainly from the Forest Steppe. Therefore, their Faustian psychology did not “evolve” on the open grasslands, looking out over infinite expanses, and then with utmost daring raiding on horseback distant flocks.

    You correctly note that the language, the gods, the myths, the early domestication of the horse can be traced back to the proto-IE people on the Pontic Steppe. But the question is, How did this cultural package enter Europe? Was it imposed on earlier European peoples by an over-mastering race of Steppe conquerors? Or did it enter and spread by relatively peaceful cultural exchange?

    Remember that MacDonald is an evolutionary psychologist. His arguments stand or fall with the notion that modern-day Europeans have genetically inherited psychological processes that developed in response to the experience of the Steppe.

    • Replies: @Anon
  117. anon[262] • Disclaimer says:

    Kevin MacDonald argues that the ancient Greeks were more aligned with individualism and kinship-driven social cohesion than with moralistic ideals, and the former was what gave rise to Western greatness, which is brought down by the latter.

    I happen to think the opposite is true.

    While it’s true that individualism encouraged independent thinkers to achieve prominence since the Greek era, did the Greek society actually live by the teachings of Socrates, Plato or Aristotle? It doesn’t appear so. Athens was nothing like Plato’s Republic. It was also why there was so much warring even among Greeks themselves — the Greek society was one of all chiefs and no Indians, and every man for himself. Individualism on steroids.

    Most people are not deep thinkers. Individualism without deep thinking amounts to superficial competition to be different – blue hair, tattoos, individualized license plates, starchitects, modern artists, LGBTQ lifestyle, biggest/most expensive car/house/yacht/jet, strange clothing etc. eventually doing more harm than good to society.

    Growing up in strict protestant families, children were expected to be seen and not heard, kids were taught “you get what you get and you don’t throw a fit”, that they are not special therefore it’s bad manners to ask for anything special, or talk endlessly about themselves, and to be gracious in defeat as well as in victory etc. Those were the Protestant ethos we were inculcated with since birth. But as E.A. Ross told us in The Old World in the New, Jew ethos are quite different. Jewish mothers always wanted to get something extra for their kids, in schools, in the halfway house etc. Jewish kids are taught from the day they were born that they are special. Which is why as they took over our education system, they gradually turned all our children into narcissistic oversensitive snowflakes who demand and expect special treatment like their own. The mantra is now “everybody is special”, “everybody is a winner”, etc.

    Individualism by nature is antithetical to social cohesion. Being individualistic means you don’t care about conforming to societal norms and expectations. It is the very thing promoted by Jews in Hollywood through “maverick” characters like John Wayne and Clint Eastwood to break apart the solidarity of whites attained through millennia of shared history, culture and religion.

    Most people of the world live in ethnically homogeneous societies – all across Asia, Latin America, Africa, Mideast. Yet they do not build cohesive societies. Maybe to outsiders countries like China, Japan, Korea, India etc. seem cohesive, but I’m sure many who live in those countries can tell you about all the bickering, disagreement and political division within these countries, i.e. there is plenty of individuality everywhere. Individualism is not a uniquely Western concept. Nor is social cohesion automatically achieved through ethnic purity. Look at Europe. About as racially pure as possible yet non-stop warring for the last 500 years, and even after WWII, they are still bickering.

    What makes the West different from all other societies is not individualism or race based social cohesion, rather, it is the very thing that MacDonald eschewed – our moralistic ideals, brought to us by Christianity. Adherence to those ideals is what allows us to build high trust societies that are so appealing to and lacking in all other societies. The reason we are falling apart is not because we have such ideals, but that those ideals – of integrity, self-restraint, self-reliance, civic mindedness, respect for rule of law, modesty, thrift, temperance, stoicism etc. — have been hijacked and supplanted by a new set of ideals: those of greed, unscrupulousness, narcissism, pleasure seeking, over sensitivity, end justifies means, being vengeful, punitive, etc. Our high trust society unfortunately also becomes our downfall as we become too trusting even of outsiders and never question why our moralistic ideals have been supplanted.

    To return the West to greatness, we must return to those very moralistic ideals that our parents and grandparents taught us, eschew the new set of Wokism ideals that is now being shoved down our throats in our schools and media. In addition, we need a 40 year moratorium on immigration to assimilate the newcomers into these traditions, instead of seeking more individualism or social cohesion through racial purity, which will only create more chaos. People of all races and nationalities can be taught our moralistic ideals, after all, it’s what they came here seeking, not DEI or LGBTQ mania, but a high trust society that allows them to thrive. Our schools failed them and us. To take back our country, we start by taking back our schools.

    • Replies: @Malla
  118. Malla says:
    @anon

    Maybe it is a combination of Christian (more so Protestant values) and race. Black Africa has many Protestants, devout Protestants and Latin America loads of Catholics but they are just as low trust as India or Middle Eastern civilizations. Christianity did not do the work there, or at least not to the same extent it did in Europe/ North America/Australasia/ Southern African Whites etc…. Maybe had they not been Christian, things there would have been even worse.

    Maybe to outsiders countries like China, Japan, Korea, India etc. seem cohesive, but I’m sure many who live in those countries can tell you about all the bickering, disagreement

    I would say, Japan is really cohesive. And China is more cohesive than the Indian subcontinent or the Middle East but far less than Japan.
    At the same time Southern Europe is more low trust than Northern Europe even if they are Christian and Eastern Europeans among Northern Europeans are comparatively low trust than North Western Europe. So Christianity is one (major/ important) component among many. There are other factors at work.
    It may be good to go back to Christian ethos as long as Whites keep the morality among themselves and not waste time trying to spread it among non Whites via some White Man’s burden or waste time doing service in non White places like missionaries in Africa. Christian morality among White gentiles, not so with outsiders including Jews. Survival triumphs morality, anytime.

  119. Anon[400] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malaparte

    I emphasize the point that most of the Steppe ancestry in modern-day Central & Western Europeans spread into these areas many centuries *before* the rise of horse-driven warfare

    i have already posted how equs milk protein appered among yamnaya as unmisticable sign of domestication before yamnaya expanded west and how was an integral and ritualistic symbol of the samara and khavalisnk culture that preceded them , a transitional period of at least 3000 years evolved in the heart of the steppe before the etno cultural sintesis of the so called proto indo europeans were born . a culture that embraced the same aristocractic movile warrior like mindset spreading across the steppe that their proto indo euroean childrens did , with more primitive weapons and trasportation but the same inner spirit

    Was it imposed on earlier European peoples by an over-mastering race of Steppe conquerors? Or did it enter and spread by relatively peaceful cultural exchange?

    Its pure phantasy embraced by a politiced academia that wanted to forget the traumatic events of the ww2 and rewrite a past that served as a guide to a pacifist raceless pseudo egalitarian future . Today the climate change have became the causant of every important historical event to further the necesity( ambition of the cosmopolitan class ) of a world goverment against the petty nationalism incapable of confronting problems of world scale , making nationalists ​the enemies of the salvation of the planet and humanity itself .

    The development of genetics studies no longer permit that wishfull thinking

    “As reported by New Scientist, and presented at the New Scientist Live event in London last weekend, researchers have been studying the DNA of people that lived in Europe and Asia several thousand years ago.

    The latest results, presented by David Reich of the Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts, concern the arrival of a group of people in Europe known as the Yamnaya. With the newly invented wheel and domesticated horses, they were able to expand like few others”

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/spanish-men-were-completely-wiped-out-by-the-arrival-of-a-new-tribe-4000-years-ago

  120. Seraphim says:
    @Malaparte

    It is not my suggestion, but a well known fact, endlessly discussed, dissected, analyzed, you name it, that Gobineau is at the the origins of the ‘Aryan myth’. It is partially true, the idea was floating in the air since the discovery of the affinities between Sanskrit and European languages. In any case Gobineau’s thrust was a denunciation of ‘democracy’ resulted from the French Revolution and the demise of ‘aristocracy’. It is an episode of the very complex ‘history of mentalities’.

  121. Seraphim says:
    @Arthur MacBride

    The name ‘Jew’ derives from Judah, who is a descendant of Jacob, who is a descendant of Abraham who is a descendant of Eber, who is a descendant of Shem.
    ‘Judah’ (Yehuda) is eponymous of the Kingdom of Judah, the land of Judea and the word ‘Yehudi’/pl.Yehudim, which became the Greek ‘Ioudaios’, Latin ‘Iudaeus’. From Latin it became in Medieval languages ‘judieu/iudieu’, which became in Middle English ‘Gyw, Iewe’. It always referred to Iudaei, long before 1775 (why 1775?).
    You do not know anything about either the ‘Jews’ or the ‘Khazars’.

    • Disagree: Arthur MacBride
    • Replies: @Arthur MacBride
  122. @Seraphim

    The name ‘Jew’ derives from Judah …

    It is a false derivation for “Jews”, Seraphim.
    They are not connected to Judah therefore not to Jacob/Israel, Abraham, Eber or Shem.
    They admit this themselves (but only for private scholarly Jewish consumption).

    Their Talmud is the direct opposite and negation of Abrahamic Law.

    You do not know anything about either the ‘Jews’ or the ‘Khazars’.

    Evidently much of the world, including my humble self, knows way more about Jews than you do Seraphim. Russians after the 1917 Jewish Coup learned a lot, for example.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  123. Bamba345 says:

    Much that is not Greek creeps in here and ruins the rest. For example expressions such as “Given the exigencies of survival in a hostile world” reveal Darwinian infection. First of all to talk of “the Greeks” as if their beliefs remained the same for the four hundred years between the writing down of the “Iliad” around 750 and Plato some four hundred years later is to flatten everything into “a culture,” one of those modern things which we look back on as contributors of various good things that we can all enjoy today. Cultures are things that supply fruits and perhaps evil thoughts. Are the Greeks good or bad. Please.

    “Survival,” for example is something that, for the Greeks of all ages, is dishonorable to want. Alcestis, the play, is the example. But to truly understand why it is dishonorable is required to understand the Greeks. Once you understand that you will realize that the Greeks are not a culture that has given us many wonderful things, but the very source of how we see the world. The concept of “nature” quite changed from the Greek to be sure, is the heart of our science, and could have come from nowhere else. In truth the dying ember of the West has overawed the East, for the East, now in thrall to “nature,” has acquiesced to the setting West. As China embraces technology more and more, as it inevitably must, everything else about it will dissolve.

    As far as slavery is concerned, for the Greeks slavery was not something someone did to someone else, but part of one’s nature. A slave could be a slave even if not owned by anyone. Socrates talks of enslaving someone unjustly and about being enslaved to pleasure. In the Laws the Athenian suggests that drinking parties be instituted by the state to arm the young against being enslaved to them.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  124. Anonymous[415] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bamba345

    ‘Iliad’ was not a Greek epic (they even did not have this name in the following 900 years), Homer was not a Greek. They got literacy in the 6th c.BC. In meantime, they had several hundreds of years of so-called Dark Ages, what means – don’t ask anything about this. Their history was artificially stretched back in time by the ‘west’ to present this non-existent history as the ‘ancient west’. Who, during this time, orally transferred the epic from generation to generation and from which language was Iliad translated to Greek?

    Sparta had a meritocracy system. Athens changed such system and introduced the tribal system, now better known as – democracy. What were characteristics of such system? Athens at its height had 135K free citizens, 100K slaves, 5000 paid ministers, 6000 judges. Other parts also had enormous numbers of slaves – Evia 20K, Boeotia 28K, Argolis/Corinth 175K slaves. There was widely spread system of corruption where you could buy everything for your money. Demosthenes, for example, had 52 slaves who manufactured weapons and swords and bought the position of Athens’ mayor. Such system had to collapse, and it did after the war with Phillip, the ruler of Macedonia. For easier control, he created the League of Corinth of defeated semi-vassal cities but did not include in this Sparta. Some still say that Macedonia was Greek but cannot explain how few separate cities without economy, without any fertile land, without horses, with enormous number of unemployed and tramps could control one Empire which conquered everything till India. It seems that it is the time to rethink today’s democracy and to find the way how to introduce meritocracy.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @RobinG
    , @Anon
  125. Seraphim says:
    @Arthur MacBride

    No, you don’t. Repeating ridiculous inanities like ”the word “Jew” first appeared in 1775 and refers mainly to Khazars” is proof enough of your sophomoric ‘knowledge’.

  126. geokat62 says:
    @Anonymous

    … one Empire which conquered everything till India.

    Alexander successfully conquered the part of northern India called the Punjab:

    In 325 B.C. what is now the Punjab and Sind area of Pakistan and India were conquered by Alexander and became the easternmost region of his brief empire.

    https://lisbdnet.com/when-did-alexander-the-great-invaded-india/

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  127. Anonymous[415] • Disclaimer says:
    @geokat62

    Yep, you are right. In my comment, this was not the topic for discussion, and I mentioned this to make some other points (for e.g. that Alexander was not a Greek, so neither his dukes (P)tolomey, Seleucid, Cassander, who inherited parts of his Empire – Egypt, Balkan, Mesopotamia, etc). I am glad that you agree with the rest of my comment. It is still very rare that someone uses his/her brain, common sense and basic logic when talking about ‘ancient’ Greek and Roman histories.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Seraphim
  128. geokat62 says:
    @Anonymous

    … Alexander was not a Greek…

    Not a Greek, huh?

    If that were true, then why did American archeologist, Professor Stephen Miller, write a letter to president Barack Obama demonstrating that Alexander was Greek? A letter that was endorsed by close to 400 classicists?

    Excerpt from Letter to President Barack Obama:

    Alexander the Great was thoroughly and indisputably Greek. His great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, competed in the Olympic Games where participation was limited to Greeks.

    Even before Alexander I, the Macedonians traced their ancestry to Argos, and many of their kings used the head of Herakles – the quintessential Greek hero – on their coins.

    Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia– wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, and in Greek. While in Macedonia, Euripides also wrote the Bacchai, again in Greek. Presumably the Macedonian audience could understand what he wrote and what they heard.

    Alexander’s father, Philip, won several equestrian victories at Olympia and Delphi, the two most Hellenic of all the sanctuaries in ancient Greece where non-Greeks were not allowed to compete. Even more significantly, Philip was appointed to conduct the Pythian Games at Delphi in 346 B.C. In other words, Alexander the Great’s father and his ancestors were thoroughly Greek. Greek was the language used by Demosthenes and his delegation from Athens when they paid visits to Philip, also in 346 B.C.

    Another northern Greek, Aristotle, went off to study for nearly 20 years in the Academy of Plato. Aristotle subsequently returned to Macedonia and became the tutor of Alexander III. They used Greek in their classroom which can still be seen near Naoussa in Macedonia.

    Alexander carried with him throughout his conquests Aristotle’s edition of Homer’s Iliad. Alexander also spread Greek language and culture throughout his empire, founding cities and establishing centers of learning. Hence inscriptions concerning such typical Greek institutions as the gymnasium are found as far away as Afghanistan. They are all written in Greek.

    The questions follow: Why was Greek the lingua franca all over Alexander’s empire if he was a “Macedonian”? Why was the New Testament, for example, written in Greek?

    The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later.

    http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html

    How many classicists can you muster that are prepared to endorse your absurd proposition that he wasn’t Greek?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  129. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    Alexander and his successor were not ‘Greek’, but they were bearing “Hellenic’ names, acting like ‘Hellens’, speaking ‘Hellenic language’, founding schools of ‘Hellenic’ sciences and literature. That’s why historians couldn’t come with a better term to describe the post-Alexander civilization: ”Hellenistic”.

  130. RobinG says:
    @Anonymous

    Sparta had a meritocracy system.

    Really? Sparta had a caste system and slavery. They routinely murdered their serfs, and there were numerous Helot revolts. Introduce a Spartan system? No, thanks!

  131. Seraphim says:
    @geokat62

    Tropes like Alexander ‘Slav’, Ancient Macedonians ‘Slavs’ are survivals of an exercise that in 1876 the then Russian Minister of the Interior, Pyotr Valuev (resisting the appeals of the ‘Pan-Slavists’ for a Russian intervention in the Serbian and Bulgarian revolts against the Ottoman Empire), called ‘Slavophile onanism’. He might have had the prescience of what wasp nest Macedonia would become, bone of contention between the ‘Slav’ brothers.

  132. Anon[218] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack McArthur

    I wont enter to discurss the greek etnogenesis the clasicist have already done an incredible job in documenting the organic process that give rise the helenic civilization and there is nothing the afrosemitic group can claim as their own except a few thing aknowloadged by greeks thenselfs but as you seem soo interested with the hyksos and the ” oustanding family that expulsed then ” , let me putt you a couple of facts that maybe clarify your understanding of the whole process

    Probably you know that a coulple years ago they texted the samples of the pharaoh tut from ” the oustanding dinasty” that expulsed the hyksos an their paternal halogroup was of european origin , everyone mocked it as the tipical neo nazi crackpotery , well finally the egiptian authorities have spoken a couple of months ago they published the linague of new kingdom dinasty and the results are conclusive the entire linague belongued to r1b .

    ” An investigative study was carried out on the familial relationships of a number of late 18th dynasty mummies (ca. 1550–1295 b.c.), including that of Tutankhamen. The study was based on the analysis of the autosomal and Y-chromosome STR markers in addition to mitochondrial hypervariable region 1 sequences. A 4-generation pedigree of Tutankhamun’s immediate lineage and the identity of his ancestors were established. The Royal male lineage was the Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b that was passed from the grandparent (Amenhotep III) to the father (KV55, Akhenaten) to the grandchild (Tutankhamen). The maternal lineage, the mitochondrial haplogroup K, extended from the great-grandmother (Thuya) to the grandmother (KV35 Elder lady, Queen Tiye) to the yet historically unidentified mother (KV35 Younger lady) to Tutankhamen ”

    https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2020/10/18th-dynasty-r1b-tutankhamun-mtdna-k.html?m=1

    Basically the ones who expulsed the hyksos and created the most prosperous dinasty in the entire history of egypt expanding militarily like never before and becoming the uncontested force of the middle east alongside the hitites , creating the most memorable architecture painting and the first monotheisyic religion breaking with the milenial egiptian traditions of the old world were at least partially of indo european extraction.

    Is the new kingdom when the myth of seth and rah slaying the serpent apep is introduced in egypt a myth purely of indo europeans , curiusly the followers of seth were described as redhead and some of the pharaoh have been positively confirmed as being ginger

    Probably part of the elite of the hyksos of indo european extraction more asimilated to the egiptian culture were the ones who get ridd of the semites .

    • Replies: @Anet
  133. Anon[218] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    The illiad was obviously transmited orally by greeks thenselfs like it was with the vedas in india a enormous compilation of himms that date a milenia before the appearing of writing or to a lesser extent nordic sagas that cover events that spand a similar amount of time .

    The chronology of the illiad and oddysei correspond perfectly with the invasion that putt an end to the bronze age kingdoms , the genetics of the philistine one of the tribes of the sea people that that conquered the levant were of south european origin , their language was indo european and the pottery and other material elements were from mycenians greeks.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/65867-philistines-ancient-dna-europe.html

  134. Anet says:
    @Anon

    Sorry here is the link of the dna of the egiptian pharaohs

    https://academic.oup.com/hmg/article/30/R1/R24/5924364

  135. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:

    I am limited in commenting by my name but just briefly:

    @ Anon218 – Obviously you know little about this topic. Sanskrit was brought from Europe and it is not older than 2000BC in India. Rg Veda (what is the meaning?) was also brought by Aryans. At the time of Trojan battle, Greeks did not have this name, did not have the Olympic mythology and even did not live in today’s Greece. Odyssey was an Illyrian, no Greek. Philistine – ‘South European’ origin – but which one, not Greek. Sea People were no Greeks. ‘Mycenean Greeks’ is an oxymoron.

    @Seraphim – The term ‘Greek’ was given to Greek colonists by European indigenous people. The term ‘Hellenic’ also originated from indigenous people.

    [MORE]

    @geokat62 – This letter is obviously a joke. Why would so many scholars write to Obama(!?) to ask him to punish those who state that Alexander was not a Greek? Did they expect that Obama should bomb them? Similarly, some Indian scholars (R. Malhotra and Swadeshi) asked from British parliament to declare that Aryans did not exist. I could go point by point through this letter but justa couple questions for anyone:
    1) Why Makedonia has a Serbian name (‘poppy valley’), not a Greek?
    2) Greeks did not have the name Alexander before, this is actually a Serbian name – Lesander and Greeks added A.
    3) Alexander’s dynasty was 500 years long (I can list all rulers) and there was no Greeks there. This dynasty was established when Greeks still did not enter the history.
    4) It is a joke that Alexander’s ‘great-great-great grandfather competed in the Olympic Games where participation was limited to Greeks’. Greeks at that time even did not have this name, they just started settling in Greece and lived far from Mt. Olympus.
    5) Why Demosthenes was constantly repeating that Philip (and Alexander) were no Greeks?
    6) How Greek cities could control the Macedonian Empire if they did not have soldiers, economy, fertile land and horses? Greeks never had states nor kings before 1829AC.
    7) Why Alexander named his money units – dinars, which is up to today the name for money in Serbia, while Greeks took the name ‘drachma’?
    8) Homer was not a Greek so as many others (e.g. Orpheus).
    9) What is the Plato’s real name, what does it mean his nickname (Plato) and in which language?
    10) In his book Cratylus (available in the Net), Plato and Socrates were discussing the words which Greeks adopted from Phrygians (who were Phrygians and where they came from?)
    11) In his decisive battle on the river Granik (a Serbian name which means – border), where Alexander defeated Persians what opened him a path to the East, Greeks consisted one half of Persian army and most of them got killed. Greeks were not in Alexander’s army. Who consisted his army?
    12) What was the official language in Alexander’s army and who were his dukes and generals? A small number of Greeks in his army advancing to the East were sons of rich Athenians who were actually hostages to guarantee a peace at home.
    13) Why all Macedonian toponyms (several thousands) were Serbian and persisted until 100 years ago when they were changed after the WW1 and are still get changed at present (Ican present a map and a full list with previous and current names).
    14) 100 years ago, they were 1 million Serbs in Greece, today they do not exist anymore.
    15) Delphi was not built by Greeks.
    16) I can list almost 100 Macedonian tribes at Alexander’s time, most of them are modern Serbian surnames. Can anyone mention only one Greek tribe in Macedonia?
    17) Today’s Greece was a part of Roman province Illyric. Illyrian/Thracians gave couple dozens of Roman Emperors (Constantine, Diocletian, Jovian, Maximilian, Justin, Justinian, etc) and they were the elite of Roman army. Greeks were non-fighting units and they did not give any Roman Emperor.
    18) ‘Herakles – the quintessential Greek hero’ (and semi-deity) was actually a historic figure and he was not a Greek, either (so as a Dionysus).
    19) ‘Thracians’ is a Greek reading of Rasens, what is an alternative name for Serbs.
    20) Who lived in Troy? Greeks, not!
    21) Greeks were NO ‘Indo-Europeans’ and their original language also was NO ‘In-Eu’.
    22) Key question which everyone avoids to answer – When (future) Greeks came to today’s Greece and where from?
    23) There are so many other points, anyone who replies can use the specific assertion/question, not unspecified assertions/disqualifications

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @Seraphim
    , @geokat62
  136. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    I cannot stop wondering why you Serbs want to confirm that you suffer from ‘Slavophile onanism’.

  137. geokat62 says:
    @Anonymous

    @geokat62 – This letter is obviously a joke.

    You must’ve missed what I wrote at the end of my comment:

    How many classicists can you muster that are prepared to endorse your absurd proposition that he wasn’t Greek?

    Archeologist, Professor Stephen Miller, managed to get close to 400 classicists to endorse his letter. I’ll be impressed if you could muster anything above single digits.

    P.S. I quickly perused the brief points you listed that supposedly refute the fact that Alexander was Greek. I must admit I found them very amusing. Rather than wasting time and refuting all of them, I’ll trash the first two so readers can get a glimpse of how ridiculous your assertions are.

    1) Why Makedonia has a Serbian name (‘poppy valley’), not a Greek?

    Macedonia
    c. 1300, Macedone, from Latin Macedonius “Macedonian,” from Greek Makedones “the Macedonians,” literally “highlanders” or “the tall ones,” related to makednos “long, tall,” makros “long, large” (from PIE root *mak- “long, thin”).

    https://www.etymonline.com/word/Macedonia

    2) Greeks did not have the name Alexander before, this is actually a Serbian name – Lesander and Greeks added A.

    Etymology. The name Alexander is derived from the Greek: Ἀλέξανδρος ( Aléxandros; ‘Defender of the people’, ‘Defending men’, or ‘Protector of men’). It is a compound of the verb ἀλέξειν ( aléxein; ‘to ward off, avert, defend’) and the noun ἀνήρ ( anḗr, genitive: ἀνδρός, andrós; meaning ‘man’).

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander#:~:text=Etymology.%20The%20name%20Alexander%20is%20derived%20from%20the,ἀνήρ%20%28%20anḗr%2C%20genitive%3A%20ἀνδρός%2C%20andrós%3B%20meaning%20%27man%27%29.

    Like I said, let me know when you find a few classicists that are prepared to endorse your 23 points. Good luck!

    • Thanks: Robjil
    • Replies: @RobinG
  138. Anonymous[390] • Disclaimer says:

    @ Seraphim – no bad feelings toward Greeks but your comment says everything about you and about the topic.

    @geokat62 – In 710 BC, the karan Perdika took the title of king and created his kingdom. The name ‘perdika’, until recently in western Serbia, was the name for a stone or wooden fence around the property. Perdika gave the name to his kingdom – Makedonia. At that time, Latin language still did not exist.

    “Like I said, let me know when you find a few classicists that are prepared to endorse your 23 points. Good luck!”

    What do you think – isn’t strange that someone organized telephone calls/emails to hundreds of scholars to confirm that Alexander was a Greek? What was the intention of sending this letter to Obama? What they wanted to achieve?
    No need to endorse my points but can anyone prove their incorrectness? There is a map of Serbian toponyms in Macedonia since before Alexander up to 100 years ago. About 2000 names are changed to Greek names (if you are researcher, I can send you the full list of old and new names).

    https://www.google.com/search?q=map+of+macedonia+changed+toponyms+to+greek&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiOtLC2uOL0AhXEg2MGHb9HBvsQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=map+of+macedonia+changed+toponyms+to+greek&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoECAAQQ1CwGFi4ZGC9aGgAcAB4AIABpgGIAecakgEEMC4yNpgBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=1hu4YY7xN8SHjuMPv4-Z2A8&rlz=1C1GCEA_enAU984#imgrc=nqBhEReTZpCPsM

    One of another major falsifications in the world history is so-called the migration of Slavs (actually Serbs) in the 7th c.AC to Balkan. There is no SINGLE historical or any other account from anyone that this migration existed. How worldwide scholars accepted this falsification? Can you find ONE only account that this migration existed?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  139. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    Don’t you realize that blusters like yours justify the accusation that all the calamities that befell the Balkans are the result of the ‘insane Serbian dreams of ‘Greater Serbia’ fed by childish fables like the ones you peddle?
    Now listen to what Herodotus had to say about Perdiccas:
    ”From Argos fled to the country of the Illyrians three brothers of the descendants of Temenus, Gauanes, Aeropus, and Perdiccas; and passing over Illyria from the mountains they came into the upper parts of Macedonia to the city of Lebaia.”… ”Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.”
    Now, Argos was a major stronghold during the Mycenaean era and the Mycenaeans were speaking a ‘Greek’ language in the IId millennium BC.
    But you know better than Herodotus, or the linguists who deciphered the Linear B!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  140. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:

    So, geokat62, instead of ‘Rather than wasting time and refuting all of them (my points)’ (for example, what Demosthenes wrote in his ‘Philipique’ or why Greeks fought in Persian army against Alexander), you may just answer a simple question – When the (future) Greeks came to today’s Greece and where they came from? Txs.

  141. @SomeoneInAsia

    All you say is true and by no means unknown to me: Worte des Konfuzius (Goldmann Taschenbuch, Band 914), Das Reich der Mitte (Cotterell/Yap, Knaur, München 1965) and La philosophie chinoise (Presses universitaires de France 1972) are my references.

    However indeed, the term “individualism” does not quite suit here, hence my emphasis on Blumenberg’s “Inkarnationsgedanke” and the developments it generated. One of those is exemplified by Marie-Dominique Chenu, in ST THOMAS D’AQUIN et la théologie, collection “Maîtres spirituels”, éditions du Seuil 1959, p. 126: “ainsi chaque substance réalise, selon sa nature, sa fin propre dans la finalité générale de l’univers (…) la liberté s’inscrit dans la nature, et la loi naturelle comporte l’impératif d’une volonté libre. La personne, valeur absolue au titre de cette liberté… (etc.) / so each substance realizes, according to its nature, its own finality in the general finality of the universe (…) liberty inscrives itself in the nature, and the natural law comprehends the imperative of a free will. The person, absolute value in regard to this liberty (etc)”. BTW, Thomas Aquinas, in “Summa theologica”, quaestio 97, art. 1 also had spoken of “…eigen gezagdragers te kiezen / elect their own representatives”, in: Over de Wet, Uitgeverij Ambo/Baarn 1996, p. 120.

    However again, all this only was a prerequisite to a development which ONLY could occur in Europe, see Ralph Raico https://fee.org/articles/why-europe-rose-and-others-didnt/ : “(…) the key to western development is to be found in the fact that, while Europe constituted a single civilization — Latin Christendom — it was at the same time radically decentralized. In contrast to other cultures — especially China, India, and the Islamic world — Europe comprised a system of divided and, hence, competing powers and jurisdictions. — After the fall of Rome, no universal empire was able to arise on the Continent. This was of the greatest significance. Drawing on Montesquieu’s dictum, Jean Baechler points out that “every political power tends to reduce everything that is external to it, and powerful objective obstacles are needed to prevent it from succeeding” (Baechler 1975, 79). In Europe, the “objective obstacles” were provided first of all by the competing political authorities. Instead of experiencing the hegemony of a universal empire, Europe developed into a mosaic of kingdoms, principalities, city-states, ecclesiastical domains, and other political entities. — Within this system, it was highly imprudent for any prince to attempt to infringe property rights in the manner customary elsewhere in the world. In constant rivalry with one another, princes found that outright expropriations, confiscatory taxation, and the blocking of trade did not go unpunished ” (emphasis mine).

    Thereupon came the aforementioned evolution triggered by the “Inkarnationsgedanke”. Again Ralph Raico: “As Anderson has summed up the evidence, ‘the scientific and technical stasis that followed the remarkable achievements of the Song dynasty, or of the flowering of early Islam, indicates that scientific inquiry and technology do not necessarily possess in themselves the dynamism suggested by the European experience’ (Anderson 1991, 46). On the contrary, technology and science emerged out of an interrelated set of political, legal, philosophical, religious, and moral elements in what orthodox Marxism has traditionally disparaged as the “superstructure” of society”, emphasis mine.

    • Replies: @René Fries
  142. Anonymous[415] • Disclaimer says:

    @ Geokat62 – the list of the names of 800 Macedonian villages in Aegean Macedonia, occupied by Greece in 1912, that have forcedly been changed from 1926 and forward.

    https://macedonianhistory.ca/PDF/Macedonian%20village%20names.pdf

  143. Anonymous[415] • Disclaimer says:
    @Seraphim

    It seems you still believe in old propaganda and media Satanization which led and justified the bombing of Serbia. In their, several thousands of years of history, Serbs never attacked other nations, did not have slavery but were themselves subjected to numerous aggressions from various sides and multiple genocides which decimated Serbian corpus. Greeks got their first nation-state in 1829 as a present from English and Austrians together with instant ‘ancient’ history. They used historical circumstances to expand their borders 11 times.

    So, when was the beginning of the Alexander’s dynasty?

    On the north of the Tempe River, which includes Mt. Olympus, in 814 BC, the ruler of Pelonia which was a part of Dardania, from the capital town of Bela Zora, (present-day Veles, in Serbian=White Dawn) sent a nobleman to the town of Voden (in Serbian – Watery) to be a karan. The town was famous with a series of springs and waterfalls. The ‘karan’ was an old Serbian title which assumed the administration of some region or town or as a military commander of certain region. The karan settled in Vodena acted as a mayor of the town. The karan wasn’t hereditary title but, in in this case, karan’s sons inherited his position and all of them administered the town for almost 100 years, until the year 710 BC. Etc, etc….

    [MORE]

    The Serbian name of this town, Greeks later changed to Edessa. Let see what the folklore in Edessa is now, Greek or Serbian, 2800 years after the first karan and 2300 years after Alexander:



    • Replies: @Seraphim
  144. RobinG says:
    @geokat62

    “Greek” drug originally Egyptian:

    Ancient Greek drug could cut COVID-19 deaths – Israeli scientist
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/ancient-greek-drug-could-cut-covid-19-deaths-israeli-scientist/ar-AAROczA?ocid=msedgntp

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  145. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    What you call a ‘karan’ is the name of the first king of Macedonia according traditions, certainly oral, but recorded later than Herodotus: Karanos. Anyway, these traditions make the Macedonian dynasty as Greek as it is possible, bringing it from the Peloponnessus and not from ‘Pelonia’ (you mean Pelagonia, check your spelling before writing).
    Karanos was the son of the king of Argos Temenos, a great-great-grandson of Herakles. Quarreling with his brother Pheidon for who should be king, he decided to move North ”with a large band of Greeks”, ”collected from the Argives and from the rest of the Peloponnese”, at the request of the king of the Orestae, who offered him half of his kingdom for his help in the war he had with the Eordaei.
    Alexander therefore was of a ‘Heraklid’ lineage, Greek.

  146. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @RobinG

    This is an interesting information regarding C19 but also regarding the origin of Greeks, who came to Europe from Egypt and Middle East. That is the reason why their original, middle-Eastern language, was no ‘Indo-European’. It is unclear why this detail is virtually hidden so as the time when they came. No one can explain how it is possible that (future) Greeks had Olympic mythology at the time of Trojan battle if they did not know of Mt. Olympus. One interesting article about early Slavic presence in Minoa Crete (there is a genetic similarity between sc. Slavic Macedonians (now northern Greece) and Cretans but different from Greeks.

    https://korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik11/serafimov_slavic_crete.pdf

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  147. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    What do you make of the fact that there are numerous peaks called Olumpos in antiquity in Mysia, Arcadia, Lycia, Cyprus, Attica, Euboea, Ionia, Lesbos, and others?
    The one in Arcadia was known also as Mount Lykaion and the Arcadians called its top ‘Cretea’ claiming that it was the birthplace of Zeus.
    Lycaon, son of Pelasgus, has instituted the worship of Zeus at Mt. Lykaion and established games in his honor, older than any Panhellenic games.
    Olympiads were called after the city of Olympia in Peloponnese which might have been called such because of its proximity to Mount Olympus/Lykaion.
    Whereas the Linear B has been demonstrated to be ‘Greek’, therefore ‘Indo-European’, the Linear A was not.

  148. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:

    Greeks present mythology and stories as their history. So many kings and kingdoms but they never had a state, their political organisations were polises. Who will answer – where and when (future) Greeks came to today’s Greece? No one is enough brave to assert that they were indigenous people there because he/she had to provide some evidence. Where and in which period they developed their mythology? Or, they just adopted this mythology (and language) from indigenous people? Where were Greeks at the time of Sea People? During Dark Ages?

    Citation about Paionians (or Pelonians or Peonians): “In antiquity, Paeonia or Paionia was the land and kingdom of the Paeonians or Paionians. The exact original boundaries of Paeonia, like the early history of its inhabitants, are obscure, but it is known that it roughly corresponds to most of present-day North Macedonia and north-central parts of Greek Macedonia and a small part of south-western Bulgaria.[2][3][4][5][6] Ancient authors placed it south of Dardania (an area corresponding to modern-day Kosovo and northern North Macedonia), west of the Thracian mountains, and east of the southernmost Illyrians.[7] It was separated from Dardania by the mountains through which the Vardar river passes from the field of Scupi (modern Skopje) to the valley of Bylazora (near modern Sveti Nikole).

    In the Iliad, the Paeonians are said to have been allies of the Trojans. During the Persian invasion of Greece the conquered Paeonians as far as the Lake Prasias, including the Paeoplae and Siropaiones, were deported from Paeonia to Asia.[8]”

    It would be interested if anyone knows the origin of the name of ‘Europe’.

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @Seraphim
  149. As Duchesne notes, although the Chinese made many practical discoveries, they never developed the idea of a rational, orderly universe guided by universal laws comprehensible to humans.

    What have the Germans, the Anglos, the French have independently discovered in the 3000 years from 2000 B.C. to 14th century? Fucking nothing. You guys were all barbarians, one of those slaves that were worked to death in the mines.

    I don’t know how White people nowadays find the audacity to take credit for the Greek’s achievements and proclaimed to their “heir” when their own ancestors were barbarians that the Greek despised and enslaved.

    The only thing that white people inherited from the classical period is megalomania and shamelessness.

    • Replies: @Ansadoe
    , @Malla
    , @Anonymous
  150. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    If you don’t know refer to Wikipedia:
    ”The first recorded usage of Eurṓpē as a geographic term is in the Homeric Hymn to Delian Apollo, in reference to the western shore of the Aegean Sea. As a name for a part of the known world, it is first used in the 6th century BCE by Anaximander and Hecataeus. Anaximander placed the boundary between Asia and Europe along the Phasis River (the modern Rioni River on the territory of Georgia) in the Caucasus, a convention still followed by Herodotus in the 5th century BCE…
    ”In classical Greek mythology, Europa (Ancient Greek: Εὐρώπη, Eurṓpē) was a Phoenician princess. One view is that her name derives from the Ancient Greek elements εὐρύς (eurús) ‘wide, broad’, and ὤψ (ōps, gen. ὠπός, ōpós) ‘eye, face, countenance’, hence their composite Eurṓpē would mean ‘wide-gazing’ or ‘broad of aspect’…
    ”Established by Roman Emperor Diocletian (284–305), the province [Europa] largely corresponds to what is modern day European Turkey. The province’s capital was Perinthus (later known as Heraclea; modern Marmara Ereğlisi).
    Bordering only the provinces of Rhodope and Haemimontus to the west and northwest, Europa was a peninsula and was surrounded by water on three sides: the Black Sea to the northeast, the Bosphorus to the east, and the Sea of Marmara and Aegean Sea to the south and southeast”. Constantinople was in the middle of Europe.

    It was not until the Carolingian Renaissance of the 9th century that the term Europa was ‘transferred’ to the West designating the sphere of influence of the Papal Church, excluding the Eastern Orthodox churches and the Eastern parts of the Roman Empire now contemptuously called ‘Greek’.

  151. Ansadoe says:
    @RealChinaman

    Greeks didnt slave any northern europeans people , they were in living free in little tribes at that time if something indo europeans were the ones who conquered and give form to classic greece

  152. Malla says:
    @RealChinaman

    to 14th century?

    Western Europe by the 1500s was already the most advanced civilization on Earth. As far as ancient times those people who lived in all we had is people lucky enough to get access to great agricultural lands and thus use their excess grain (food) production for civilization building. Place the same people in a place with no agricultural potential and you would get barbarians. Indus Valley civilization is the oldest in the World, but it was based near a river, the Indus. Had there been no rivers in India, there might have been no civilization. Like the Arab barbarians in Arabia, Arabain peninsula is nearly the same size as our Indian civilization but was full of desert barbarians. Had there been rivers there, they would have had a civilization.
    The modern technological World developed by the West is independent of this but depends primarily on human average IQ, productivity and high trust-ness. And the Greeco Roman element was not the core driver of Western civilization superiority, it was Germanic elements which made the West unique and laid the groundworks for its great emergence.
    David Landes, Prof of History and Economics in his book, Wealth and Poverty of Nations
    “Europe of the Middle Ages -one of the most inventive societies that history had known”. Between the years 900 A.D. and 1300 A.D., Europeans created their first industrial revolution, which set Western civilization on the road to global dominance.

    • Agree: René Fries
    • Replies: @geokat62
  153. @René Fries

    When writing the above, I was hurried away (appointment at the hospital) and now I see there is a “missing link”, a very specific dynamic inherent to the said “Inkarnationsgedanke”. In the words of Hans Blumenberg: “(…) vielmehr hatte die theologische Spekulation selbst sowohl die Notwendigkeit herbeigeführt als auch die Systemverbindung geliefert, um die in der Gottesspekulation gewonnenen Kategorien mit der Vorstellung vom Menschen in Kommunikation zu setzen”, in: Die Legitimität der Neuzeit, op. cit., Section Four, “Aspekte der Epochenschwelle”. My translation may be approximative: “(…) rather it was the theological speculation itself that brought about the necessity as well as the systemic liaison (needed) to put into communication, the categories won in the theological speculation with the representation of Man”.

  154. geokat62 says:
    @RobinG

    The Duke of Paeonian Oven Mitts

    • Replies: @RobinG
  155. geokat62 says:
    @Malla

    And the Greeco Roman element was not the core driver of Western civilization superiority, it was Germanic elements which made the West unique and laid the groundworks for its great emergence.

    The West was profoundly influenced by the Renaissance. It first flowed from Italy and spread to the rest of the West.

    Excerpts from, German Renaissance:

    The German Renaissance, part of the Northern Renaissance, was a cultural and artistic movement that spread among German thinkers in the 15th and 16th centuries, which developed from the Italian Renaissance. Many areas of the arts and sciences were influenced, notably by the spread of Renaissance humanism to the various German states and principalities. There were many advances made in the fields of architecture, the arts, and the sciences…

    One of the most important German humanists was Konrad Celtis (1459–1508). Celtis studied at Cologne and Heidelberg, and later travelled throughout Italy collecting Latin and Greek manuscripts…

    Another important figure was Johann Reuchlin (1455–1522) who studied in various places in Italy and later taught Greek.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Renaissance#:~:text=The%20German%20Renaissance%2C%20part%20of%20the%20Northern%20Renaissance%2C,Germany%20produced%20two%20developments%20that%20were%20to%20dominate

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Malla
  156. Espadac says:

    half the commenters are horrified of a positive self afirmation of european people even when is grounded in a non confrontative ways by the articulist ; human trash like seraphin really showed his colours here , 40 % are too apathetic to respond them and the remaining 10% act like cornered beast that only worsen the situation.

    Is this the end for european people ? it definitively look like it.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  157. Seraphim says:
    @Espadac

    Nobody would be ‘horrified’ of a ‘positive self affirmation’ of ‘european people’ if that would be really a positive one and not the ridiculously ‘pagan’ and positively anti-Christian of scatterbrained infantile ‘white’ buffoons fancying themselves ‘SS warriors’ wielding the ‘Thor’s hammer’, but unconsciously playing to the Jewish tunes. They don’t realize that they are objects of ridicule. If that is the ‘positive self affirmation’, then it is really the end of ‘european people’, objects of pity rather.

    • Agree: Pierre de Craon
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Espadachi
  158. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @RealChinaman

    There is some truth in your assertion but not quite. The fact is that ‘westerners’ originated from Yamnaya nomads who came to Europe from Russian steppes. Despite attempts to present them as some ‘aristocracy’, they were on much lower cultural levels comparing to indigenous European people. They did not know for agriculture, metallurgy, building, pottery, gold processing, trades, astronomy, literacy, etc, etc. They had substandard living even for this time (2800-2500BC), had economy based on few domesticated animals and followed them across the steppe, came with stone axes and considered as the most murderous group in human history. Western scholars try to persuade us that they brought the language which influenced the whole Europe and a half of Asia, although it is against the basic logic. Because of this, the official history hides that indigenous European people developed the oldest and the highest civilization, the oldest literacy, the language (and mythology) which was carried to S.Asia, where became Sanskrit and also brought there Rg Veda. They also had intensive contacts with Chinese in Asia (there are few phd papers about these ‘northern’ people).

    Westerners tried hardly for 200 years but could not establish the link between Yamnaya (their ancestors) and Sanskrit/Vedas. Simply, genes which Aryans brought to Asia did not match with Yamnaya. Instead, they tried to make story of ‘ancient’ Greece, stretched this back in time up to the Trojan battle and after that appropriated as theirs. Subsequently, they heavily falsified Roman history and the first millennium of Eu history. The corner stone of such falsifications was non-existent migration of ‘Slavs’ to Balkan in the 7th c.AC, without one single historical or any other evidence. If this falsification is uncovered, it would have a domino effect and require the writing of new world history. Western scholars cannot explain the diffusion of so-called ‘Indo-European’ (Yamnaya) language and the similarity between Sanskrit and their modern Euro languages, especially because there is a time gap of 3500 years between them.

    Because they glorify ‘ancient’ Greek (and Roman) histories to make impression that they also belong to the highest culture in world history and ignore a civilisation which is almost 10K years old. Btw, the original term ‘barbarian’ was different from the modern one and there is often confusion because of this (I may present the original meaning). Greeks could not enforce anything (e.g. slavery) on ‘westerners’, simply because they did not have the economy, fertile land, horses and even, during the Roman Empire, they were not fighting units in the army. They had influence much later in the East Roman Empire, so-called ‘Byzantium’ (another term invented by ‘westerners’ to prevent ‘easterners’ to also claim a part of ‘ancient’ Roman heritage), but that would be another story.

    • Replies: @Malla
  159. RobinG says:
    @geokat62

    What amuses me is the eagerness to claim genetic entitlement to this character.

    According to Bernal, [Martin Bernal, Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization, Vol. 1], whereas Greek civilization was known originally to have roots in Egyptian, Semitic, and various other southern and eastern cultures, it was redesigned as ‘Aryan’ during the course of the nineteenth century, its Semitic and African roots either actively purged or hidden from view.

    Also, recall that only in the nineteenth century did European historians of the Crusades begin not to allude to the practice of cannibalism among the Frankish knights, even though eating human flesh is mentioned unashamedly in contemporary Crusader chronicles.
    Edward Said, Culture and Imperialism

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @geokat62
  160. Seraphim says:
    @Seraphim

    Merci Pierre! I hope that France would find her Jeanne D’Arc again and that ‘les cochons’ won’t prevail.

    • Replies: @Pierre de Craon
  161. Seraphim says:
    @geokat62

    It is most ‘ironic’ if you want, that the first apologist of ‘German virtues’ was the Italian humanist scholar Enea Silvius Piccolomini, the future Pope Pius II, who in 1454 used the recently discovered manuscript of Tacitus’ ”De origine et situ Germanorum” to urge the ‘Germans’ as the ‘imperial people’ to take the mantle of the Crusade against the ‘infidel Turks’, for which the ‘German’ princes had no appetite whatsoever and who rejected the appeals of the future Pope as another attempt of the corrupt Italians to extort financial and human sacrifices from the poor ‘Germans’, but retained the exaggerated description of Tacitus and used them later in the fight of the Reformation against the ‘Papstum’. It outgrew steadily to became the malignant growth of ‘PanGermanism’ which brought the calamities of two world wars and still poison the minds of the ”white ‘Europeans”’ with dreams of a ‘pagan (“Aryan”) Reich’ led by wielders of ‘Thor’s hammer’ (be them the buffoons of ‘Viking metal bands’, race cultists, or the ‘scholarly’ retarded social darwinist ‘evolutionary strategists’) with which they would smash the heads of the mongrel Tartar Moskali.

  162. Espadachi says:
    @Seraphim

    Denigrating greeks one of the basic pillars of the west as a bunch of sexually perverted degenerates or any other native cultural phenomenom not perfectly aliniated with wharever your conception of a christian worldview is certainly is not helping .

    There is live outside the church .

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @RobinG
  163. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @RobinG

    Thanks for this reference. It is also pretty interested wiki topic on Black Athena. Because no one tried to answer – where (future) Greeks came from? I already mentioned Egypt and Middle East. Maybe someone can now answer when and where from they came to Egypt together with Jews? Another interesting fact – Greeks and Jews are genetic cousins. I wonder what would 400 scholars/classicists say about this and would they be writing a new joint letter to Kamala Harris?

  164. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:

    Thanks for this reference. It is also pretty interesting wiki topic on Black Athena. Because no one tried to answer – where (future) Greeks came from? I already mentioned Egypt and Middle East. Maybe someone can now answer when and where from they came to Egypt together with Jews? Another interesting fact – Greeks and Jews are genetic cousins. I wonder what would 400 scholars/classicists say about this and would they be writing a new joint letter to Kamala Harris?

  165. @Seraphim

    With so much confusion about the present, it is hardly surprising that a similar confusion infects the once clear sense of how the classical past ought to be understood. We must hope and pray, of course, that the present bizarre and ultimately self-defeating interest in a return to paganism will fail to gain more traction than it already has.* The Christian West, after all, was built on an alternative concept: taking from paganism whatever in it was insightful, instructive, and founded upon a deep understanding of human nature and man’s place in the world—in other words, the aspects of the pagan past that were timeless and hence worth preserving and incorporating—and abandoning the rest.

    To a degree, the situation observable in this thread bears more than a skin-deep resemblance to what one sees every day at TOO: a string of commenters who aren’t quite sure which they hate more, the West’s Christian past or its Jewish present.
    ___________
    *Alas, much of the time, prayer seems the only recourse with more than the proverbial snowball’s chance in Hell of success.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Anon
  166. @Arthur MacBride

    Abraham’s ancestor Eber who was of the city of Ur in Mesopotamia, present-day location Tel el-Muqayyar in Iraq

    “(…) in der Bibelwissenschaft besteht ein Konsens darüber, dass es Abraham nicht gegeben hat // …) in the ‘Bibelwissenschaft’ there is a consensus that Abraham didn’t exist”, in: Der frühe Islam, Verlag Hans Schiler, Berlin 2007, p. 310

    …and there was a neo-Babylonian king Nabonid who served as “model”, cf Die Entstehung einer Weltreligion III, Schiler Verlag Berlin 2012 p. 95

    These 2 books form part of a series (8 books in my possession, 5473 pages) called “Inârah” and supervised by the Universität des Saarlandes: “Hitherto our researches have clearly shown that the traditional account of Muhammad, the Qur’an, and the emergence of Islam actually have little or nothing in common with historical reality”, http://inarah.net/ , the said reality ( = influences not only of Judaism/Christianism but also of Zûrvanism, Buddhism, Zoroastrism etc) being amply explained and discussed in the said thousands of pages

  167. geokat62 says:
    @RobinG

    According to Bernal, [Martin Bernal, Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization, Vol. 1],

    You’re a fan of Bernal? Good ‘ole Marty kept himself very busy pushing another big lie to delegitimize the roots of Western Civilization.

    Unfortunately for Marty, one of his co-religionists (Mary Lefkowitz) had enough integrity to debunk the nonsense he was spewing.

    Snippet from Donald Kagan’s, Stealing history:

    Professor Lefkowitz goes beyond the easy explosion of such fictions to trace the route by which they came into being. Two ancient writers, in particular, have been the sources of assertions of Egyptian origins of Greek ideas: Herodotus, who lived in the fifth century B.C., and Diodorus of Sicily, four centuries later. They neither spoke the Egyptian language nor could read its scripts but were dependent for what they report on what was told them by Egyptian informants. Like many other Greeks they had great respect for the antiquity of Egyptian civilization and liked to seek the roots of Greek ideas and customs in it. The Egyptian informants, for their part, were eager to claim origins in their own culture for Greek achievements, for the days of Egypt’s imperial greatness were long in the past. In Herodotus’s day, Egypt was a province of the Persian Empire; in the time of Diodorus and later Greek writers it was a part of the Roman Empire. The chief remaining source of national pride was the antiquity and superiority of Egyptian history and culture. Over time they claimed, as reported in Greek sources, that Egyptian wisdom had instructed such Greek thinkers as Homer, Thales, Pythagoras, Democritus, Eudoxus, and Plato. The decipherment of ancient Egyptian writing in the last century has made it possible for us to read thousands of documents that reveal a civilization and way of thinking that could hardly be more different from that of the Greeks and could not possibly serve as a basis or a model for the ideas of the listed Greek thinkers.

    https://newcriterion.com/issues/1996/3/stealing-history

  168. Seraphim says:
    @Espadachi

    There is life outside the church, but there is no salvation outside the Church. Your choice.

  169. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:

    Finally, we are getting some trickles of information. Until now, we could not ask about origins of (future) Greeks and when they came to today’s Greece. Genetics already established their kinship with Jews. Also, many linguists confirmed the Middle Eastern (non-Indo-European) roots of their original language. There are so many other unanswered questions. It is amazing how some assume that ‘ancient’ Greeks are the sole foundation of Western civilisation. Actually, they are not, Etruscans are. Isn’t it strange that all famous people (philosophers, writers, historians) are considered to be Greeks? Homer, for example, was not a Greek. Also, Thales and Orpheus (Sorbey). What Plato’s real name says to us and what is the meaning of this his nickname? Greeks are presented as a miracle nation in domains of science, philosophy, writings, history, etc. There is nothing, not one single thing, contributed by indigenous people. Who were they and what’s happened with them? Isn’t it strange that in last 200 years we don’t know any ‘miracle’ Greek, whose name would be worth mentioning on a global scale? But, instead, in many countries around the world we can see on every corner giros and souvlaki outlets. What’s happened that modern generations could not keep up with their ‘miracle’ ancestors?

  170. geokat62 says:

    Excerpt from, Plato:

    Name
    The fact that the philosopher in his maturity called himself Platon is indisputable, but the origin of this name remains mysterious. Platon is a nickname from the adjective platýs (πλατύς) ‘broad’. Although Platon was a fairly common name (31 instances are known from Athens alone), the name does not occur in Plato’s known family line. The sources of Diogenes Laërtius account for this by claiming that his wrestling coach, Ariston of Argos, dubbed him “broad” on account of his chest and shoulders, or that Plato derived his name from the breadth of his eloquence, or his wide forehead. While recalling a moral lesson about frugal living Seneca mentions the meaning of Plato’s name: “His very name was given him because of his broad chest.”

    His true name was supposedly Aristocles (Ἀριστοκλῆς), meaning ‘best reputation’.[f] According to Diogenes Laërtius, he was named after his grandfather, as was common in Athenian society. But there is only one inscription of an Aristocles, an early archon of Athens in 605/4 BC. There is no record of a line from Aristocles to Plato’s father, Ariston. Recently a scholar has argued that even the name Aristocles for Plato was a much later invention. However, another scholar claims that “there is good reason for not dismissing [the idea that Aristocles was Plato’s given name] as a mere invention of his biographers”, noting how prevalent that account is in our sources.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  171. RobinG says:
    @Espadachi

    Denigrating greeks….as a bunch of sexually perverted degenerates….

    Did he [seraphim] do that? Well, they (and their gods) were the champions of rape and pederasty.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Seraphim
  172. geokat62 says:
    @RobinG

    “Save for the wild force of Nature, nothing moves in this world that is not Greek in its origin.” — Lord Acton

  173. Seraphim says:
    @Pierre de Craon

    Absolutely. It was spelled out in no uncertain terms by Augustin:
    St. Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, Book II, Ch. 40
    CHAP. 40.–WHATEVER HAS BEEN RIGHTLY SAID BY THE HEATHEN, WE MUST APPROPRIATE TO OUR USES:
    ”60. Moreover, if those who are called philosophers, and especially the Platonists, have said aught that is true and in harmony with our faith, we are not only not to shrink from it, but to claim it for our own use from those who have unlawful possession of it. For, as the Egyptians had not only the idols and heavy burdens which the people of Israel hated and fled from, but also vessels and ornaments of gold and silver, and garments, which the same people when going out of Egypt appropriated to themselves, designing them for a better use, not doing this on their own authority, but by the command of God, the Egyptians themselves, in their ignorance, providing them with things which they themselves were not making a good use of; in the same way all branches of heathen learning have not only false and superstitious fancies and heavy burdens of unnecessary toil, which every one of us, when going out under the leadership of Christ from the fellowship of the heathen, ought to abhor and avoid; but they contain also liberal instruction which is better adapted to the use of the truth, and some most excellent precepts of morality; and some truths in regard even to the worship of the One God are found among them. Now these are, so to speak, their gold and silver, which they did not create themselves, but dug out of the mines of God’s providence which are everywhere scattered abroad, and are perversely and unlawfully prostituting to the worship of devils. These, therefore, the Christian, when he separates himself in spirit from the miserable fellowship of these men, ought to take away from them, and to devote to their proper use in preaching the gospel. Their garments, also,–that is, human institutions such as are adapted to that intercourse with men which is indispensable in this life,–we must take and turn to a Christian use”.

    Of course, the ‘neo-paganists’ turn the words of Augustin on their head: Christians have ‘stolen’, ‘plagiarized’ the ‘pagans’. That is because they are really atheists who reject the Incarnation, like the Jews they pretend to combat, but in fact strive to imitate.

  174. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @geokat62

    Very good! So, Plato’s real name was Aristocle, which was derived from the name of his father Aristo(n). But what is CLE? It comes from KNEE adopted from indigenous language. In many languages, ‘knee’ had the meaning of descendants and kinship. E.g. ‘we are cousins from the third knee’, means – the third generation, etc. It means that Plato’s real name is – Aristo’s son (i.e. descendant). Some other names were also created in this way – Sophocles, Pericles, Themistocles, etc. It was present even at Romans time. Diocletian, for example, meant Dio’s son (God’s son). The nickname ‘Plato’ also comes from the indigenous language and means what was mentioned – wide-shouldered (or square-shouldered) guy.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  175. geokat62 says:
    @Anonymous

    But what is CLE? It comes from KNEE adopted from indigenous language. In many languages, ‘knee’ had the meaning of descendants and kinship.

    KNEE, huh?

    Excerpts from, Kleos:

    Kleos (Greek: κλέος) is the Greek word often translated to “renown”, or “glory”. It is related to the English word “loud” and carries the implied meaning of “what others hear about you”. A Greek hero earns kleos through accomplishing great deeds…

    Etymology
    According to Gregory Nagy, kleos is a noun, derived from the verb kluein, which means ‘hear’.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleos

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  176. Malla says:
    @Anonymous

    Westerners tried hardly for 200 years but could not establish the link between Yamnaya (their ancestors) and Sanskrit/Vedas. Simply, genes which Aryans brought to Asia did not match with Yamnaya

    What rubbish!! What bullshit do you fart.


    The Blue bars represent Iranian farmers, who were Caucasians too.
    The Orange ones represent the Aryans, the Nordic horse ridding pastoralists, basically the cowboys of their day. Genetically related to North East Europeans like Slavs (Russians, Poles) and Baltics (Lithuanians)
    Yellow bars represent the original primitive black Australoid aborigine hunter gatherers
    Pink bars represent North East Asians coming from the East across the Himalayas (Tibetans, proto Chinese) as well as South East Asian farmers (Cambodian Rice Farmers).

    “The oldest example of R1a in ancient DNA from Central Asia is dated to 2132-1940 calBCE (ID I3770, Narasimhan 2019). Moreover, this sequence is closely related to much older R1a samples from Central, Eastern and Northern Europe, and phylogenetically nested within their diversity. Thus, it must surely represent a population expansion from Europe to Central Asia. Indeed, it’s also associated with the Bronze Age Andronovo archeological culture, which is usually seen as an offshoot of the Corded Ware culture (CWC) of Late Neolithic Europe. The vast majority of present-day R1a lineages in Central Asia are closely related to that of I3770, and so must also ultimately derive from Europe.”

    Also form the map of R1a
    The oldest instance of R1a in ancient DNA from South Asia is dated to just 1044-922 calBCE (ID I12457, Narasimhan 2019). This sequence, as well as the vast majority of present-day South Asian R1a lineages, are closely related to much older R1a samples from Central, Eastern and Northern Europe, and phylogenetically nested within their diversity. Thus, they must surely represent a population expansion from Europe to South Asia via Central Asia, in all likelihood during the Bronze Age. Even if R1a existed in South Asia before the Bronze Age, which is extremely unlikely, because it’s found in samples from indigenous European hunter-gatherers, the vast majority of present-day R1a lineages in South Asia must be ultimately from Europe.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  177. Seraphim says:
    @RobinG

    A great influence on shaping the view that the Greek art reflects the beauty of the ‘white race’ had the glorification of marble statues representing the white, male body by Johann Joachim Winckelmann, ”the father of the discipline of art history”, extended to the glorification of Greek architecture of white marble. His vision was completely false, the ‘pure white’ marble of the statues and of the temples were painted over (even in the most strident colors). But it is likely that the enthusiasm of Winckelmann was most likely for the male naked bodies. He was a notorious homosexual, and open homoeroticism formed his writings on aesthetics.

  178. Malla says:
    @geokat62

    I am not talking about the Renaissance. I am talking way back when. Indeed during the Renaissance there was a lot of falsification of history.
    There are two ways to look at Western Civilization.
    1] It is a continuation from Greeco-Rome and even from ancient Egypt/ Sumeria.
    2] It is a distinct civilization which emerged after the fall of Rome.
    Both are correct, Western Civilization is at the same time a continuation of Classical Civilization but at the same time it is something new, a distinct civilization. Just like Japanese Civilization, which is a continuation of Tang dynasty China but also at the same time it is a new unique civilization of its own, different from Chinese, Korea, Vietnamese Confucian civilization. That is why Huntington in his Clash of Civilizations considered Japanese Civilization a distinct civilization, I have written about this before. So even if the Japanese are the same race as Koreans/Chinese etc… they have a distinct Civilization just like Russian Civilization is distinct from Western civilization even if they are all the same race. Some people consider Russian civilization a part of Western civilization.
    Three civilizations arose from the dead matter of Classical Civilization
    1] Western Civilization
    2] Orthodox Civilization
    3] Islamic Civilization
    All of them are influenced by Greeco Rome, and are in some ways a continuation of it. Islamic Medicine is called Unani medicine which literally translates to “Greek medicine”. “Yunan”= “Yavanas” term of ancient Indians = Greeks, from “Ionian” Greeks. Of course Islamic Civilization is not the pure version of Greeco Roman, Western civilization is more closer in many ways. Islamic civilization also included Arabic, Persian, Indian, Egyptian etc… elements along with the Greeco-Roman-Byzantine Classical. There is also a theory of “Aryan Islam”, because most of the intellectual developments of Islam took place in Persia and Central Asia, the Hadith Sahi Bukhari from Bukhara for example. Similarly Russian Civilization became distinct because of Eastern Slavic, Baltic and Uralic elements mixed in with Greeco-Roman-Byzantine elements + Orthodox Christianity.
    Western civilization which emerged from the death of the Classical civilization became a distinct civilization and it had three pillars holding it up.
    1] Greeco=Roman elements
    2] Western Christianity (Roman Catholicism, later Protestantism, Mormonism)
    3] Germanic elements (as well as Celtic, Western Slavic, Baltic, Finnic etc… elements in the mix)
    Many elements of Western Civilization which made it unique and also so successful actually comes from Germanic elements.
    This is well explained in this video below

    Understanding Western Civilization. What made it unique and actually a bit weird but insanely successful.
    As the video explains, during the Renaissance, the history of Western Civilization’s Germanic elements was downplayed and the achievements of the Middle Ages downplayed as well. This attitude contributed to the ‘White Man’s Burden’ civilizatizing mission. The “Dark Ages”, is a myth. Medieval Europe already had a mini Industrial Revolution (So did Song Dynasty China), had a standard of living by 1200 A.D. about 90 percent of Song Dynasty China, the most developed part of the World, was already an equal to all the other civilizations of Eurasia/ Meso America by the 12th Century, was ahead of the world (including Islamic civilization) by then in castle and naval technology, even the Mongol Imperial forces found the maze of Western European Castles too formidable to expand further. Medieval Europe had loads of innovations and inventions during the Middle ages like horse drawn carriages (other civilizations used pack animals), glasses for elderly scholars, the mechanical clock (ones in Switzerland impressed a Ottoman gentleman traveler Evleya Celibi, who called it “White magic”) etc…. This was already leading to higher economic productivity in Europe in the Middle Ages itself, from the 12th century A.D.
    The idea that Europe was the “most backward part of the World” by 1500 A.D. and then”suddenly advanced” is a historical myth. Same with Japan, Japan was already developing to a higher state than other Asian societies by the 15th century, the belief that Japan “suddenly developed from a very backward state” is a like-wise historical myth. Already the earliest Europeans to Japan in the 16th century, were commenting that Japan was a sophisticated society and that the Japanese in their engineering skills not only outdid all other Asians but even Europeans themselves!!!

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @RobinG
  179. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @geokat62

    Not bad, not bad at all. Let test and compare two options. What would be a better solution – Plato-‘Aristo’s reputation’, or Plato – Aristo’s descendant (i.e. son)? ‘Knee’ is still used for one family generation, e.g. ‘My family is the sixth knee (i.e. generation) American’. Both words (‘knee’ and the word from which ‘plato’ originated, are still used and with the same meaning in the modern version of this indigenous language.

    Wiki also says: “From other source, the Greek term kleos is derived from the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) term *ḱlewos, which expressed a similar concept in PIE society.” But, we already established (did we?) that original Greek language was no Indo-European or it was much later after the proto-language phase. So, this assertion is not very reliable.

  180. geokat62 says:
    @Malla

    Thx for the lengthy response, Malla.

    I initially reacted to this initial statement of yours:

    And the Greeco Roman element was not the core driver of Western civilization superiority, it was Germanic elements which made the West unique and laid the groundworks for its great emergence.

    Since you’ve just acknowledged that there were indeed three pillars underpinning WC:

    Western civilization which emerged from the death of the Classical civilization became a distinct civilization and it had three pillars holding it up.
    1) Greeco=Roman elements
    2) Western Christianity (Roman Catholicism, later Protestantism, Mormonism)
    3) Germanic elements…

    … do you still feel comfortable with the way you framed your initial statement, above, – i.e., “it was Germanic elements which made the West unique and laid the groundworks for its great emergence.”?

    • Replies: @Malla
  181. Anonymous[190] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malla

    Take it easy, what’s the point of this frustrated farting? You did not read my comment carefully. I almost agree with everything what you wrote. But, the fact is that Yamnaya (westerners’ ancestors) was R1b and they have nothing to do with Aryans, Sanskrit and Rg Veda. Aryans were proto-Slavics and they came from Europe. What is the problem?

    I read your second comment. You have some big gaps in your big picture. As I said above, the European civilisation did not start with Greeks (776 BC) nor with Yamnaya (2800 BC). When Yamnaya came to Europe, the indigenous people 5000 years before that had the first industrial revolution, agriculture and literacy (3000 years before Yamnaya nomads came to Europe with stone axes). So, you must go back to drawing board and try again. You should start with the end of Ice Age (about 10-12000 BC) and follow the people and civilisations. Where people in Europe lived during the Ice Age? Where originated the oldest and the highest European civilisation? Where is the cradle of European civilisation? It was 7000 years before Yamnaya, i.e. it is more time than between Yamnaya and us (about 4500-4800 years ago). In your framework people come from nowhere, we don’t know where originated and which language they spoke. ‘Yavana’ were not Greeks. Greeks came much after Aryans and they simply did not have horses. Yavanas were Aryans, i.e. no (future) Greeks. Who were indigenous European people? Greeks not. You would achieve better results if you employed more your brain than your ass.

    • Replies: @Malla
  182. RobinG says:
    @Malla

    The Bright Ages: A New History of Medieval Europe
    Hardcover – December 7, 2021

    • Thanks: Malla
  183. The world of the ancient Greeks is long gone. their values and way of life have very little to do with ours. America as a continent was conquered and populated by various ethnic groups. The Greeks valued their lineage and their social cohesion more than anything abhorring frictions in the city. Slavery was an ancient institution with various forms and methods. Even Spartacus had slaves. The caste system is a form of slavery, and the Persian Empire was exactly an Empire comprised of many ethnic groups which had their own slavery systems.
    We value the heritage of the ancient Greeks to the extend that we want to live, as an ideal, the life of arete, virtue, in our private lives and as citizens. Unfortunately we value more sexual gratification, escapism from this world through drugs and lately through the metaverse, trying to live in a word far far away from our senses and nature.
    The sacred, as a feeling emanating from our owe for nature and the hardships of life is not our preoccupation anymore. Rewards are for here and now. Time is confined in an instantaneous act of self gratification of “happiness”. The Greeks lived to perform great deeds. To be honored by the other Greeks and posterity. Individualism was with accepted as a social accomplishment to be celebrated and remembered for posterity as an example. Thucydides wrote his history so that it would be “possession for ever”.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  184. Anonymous[190] • Disclaimer says:
    @Nicholas Βιniaris

    Neither Thucydides nor Spartacus were Greeks!

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  185. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    Nobody ever said that Spartacus was Greek. Everybody knew that he was a Thracian.
    Thucydides was Athenian by birth which makes him ‘Hellen’, notwithstanding the ‘Thracian’ name of his father, Olorus. Thucydides was related to Miltiades the Younger, the victor of Marathon, who married Hegesipyle, the daughter of a ”King of Thrace”, Olorus. The Odrysian Kings were always allies of Athens and were largely ‘hellenized’.
    Anyway, Thracians were not ‘Slavs’ if that’s what you want to suggest.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  186. Anonymous[190] • Disclaimer says:
    @Seraphim

    Don’t get me wrong Serco, Greeks are my third most favourite nation. But, amicus Greeks, sed magis amica veritas. We came to the point – who were Thracians? Herodotus (he is also one-half a Car) said that Thracians are the biggest nation in the world after Indus. This is actually a Greek reading of Rasians what is an alternative name for Serbs and also the root for Russians and Prussians. It came from Reasa (or Rasa), the goddess of Earth (and agriculture). This is also a root for English word ‘race’ (in Serbian – rasa). Later Greeks’ version is Gea or Gaya what is also a Serbian word. For example, Justin and Justinian were Thracians. So, what’s happened overnight with the biggest nation in the world and their language just few decades after Emperor Justinian who built Sveta Sofia in Constantinople and issued the Roman Law? This disappearance coincided with alleged arrival of so-called ‘Slavs’ to Balkan. It is interesting that indigenous Thracians and Serbs (who allegedly came from somewhere) have the same genetics. Indigenous Thracians later mixed with a small number of Asiatic Bulgars and we have Bulgarians, who speak the same language as Serbs. How come? To cut short, Thracians were Serbs and spoke some old version of Serbian, which heavily influenced Greek language as well. For example, the concept of ‘muse’, Greeks got from Thracians. Yes, Spartacus was a Thracian, too. It is a similar case with Illyrians (e.g. Odyssey) what is a Roman common name for several Serbian speaking tribes in former Yugoslavia.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  187. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    You know what happened to the ‘Thraco-Illyrians’ under the Romans? Well, they became that population that every ‘balkan’ people never speak about the Aromanians (Armâni, as they call themselves), Vlachi, Cutsovlachi, Tzintzari, Maurovlachi, a Latino-phone population spread all over the Balkans, consanguineous with the North Danubian Daco-Romanians. Even today, after significant shrinkages due to ‘slavization’ and ‘grecization’ the total number of Romanians exceeds the number of all the Balkanic Slavs. ‘Rasians’ is not an alternative name of the Thracians.
    Constantin, Justin, Justinian belonged to that population. ‘Serbia’ in their time was still ‘Dacia’. Justinian built the ‘Ναός της Αγίας του Θεού Σοφίας/Naós tis Ayías tou Theoú Sofías’; Latin: ‘Ecclesia Sanctae Sophiae’, designed by the Greeks mathematician Anthemius of Tralles and geometer and engineer Isidore of Miletus. No ‘Sveta Sofia’. The ‘Roman Law’ was written in Latin (continuously since the foundation of Rome). Justinian ordered a compilation of all the existing laws.
    But I can’t stop you telling yourself bed time stories. Sweet dreams.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  188. Anonymous[190] • Disclaimer says:
    @Seraphim

    Serco, the problem is that Greeks think that everything started with their arrival to Balkan and that the time before did not exist. Because they state that Aryans did not exist because it was before their time. You should know that civilisation in Europe existed for almost 10 K years before Greeks came or 7K years before Yamnaya (western ancestors). By now, you should know that Euro civilisation originated in Vinca/Danube where the most of Euro people (including the Serbian ancestors) spent the Ice Age. In this case you would know where groups you mentioned originated, which genes they had and which language they spoke. You should know that Goths (Romans call them Dacians) have the same genetics as Serbs. Dacians also originated in Danube valley. The name ‘Romanian’ was invented in the middle of 19.c.AC when Jesuits created an artificial nation with an artificial language (although they still have 9000 Serbian words). It was Jesuits’ 300 years project ‘East Latins’. Romans held 16% of today’s Romania for 168 years what was not enough to make them Latins so as you are not a Turk. Btw, Romanians were baptized on Serbian language, their medieval churches have frescos written in Serbian and officially belonged to the Serbian church until 1924, when they bought tomos from Phanars.

    So, what’s happened overnight with ‘the biggest population in the world (after Indus)’, Illiro-Thracians, which lived in former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Asia Minor, Romania, Greece, Hungary, etc. Overnight, in a matter of few decades, their languages were (according to wiki) extinct! They were elite and the iron fist of Roman Army and gave couple dozens of Emperors (e.g. Diocletian, Constantine, Maximilian, Galerian, Jovian, Licinius, Justin, Justinian, etc). How come much lower number of Greeks survived while the biggest nation disappeared without traces. Rasians (or Rashani or Raseni) is not alternative name for Thracians, Thracians ARE Greek pronunciation of Rasians. ‘Sveta Sofia’ is a Serbian translation of ‘Sanctae Sophiae’ or Hagia Sophia. Of course that Justinian, who was born in a Serbian mountain village next to the village of his uncle, Emperor Justin, did not write the Roman Law by himself, but he made it official and it is still the ruling Legal code in Europe (except UK). So-called ‘migration of Slavs’ to Balkan did not exist, there is no a single evidence or any other account to confirm this Vatican’s falsification.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  189. Anon[615] • Disclaimer says:
    @Pierre de Craon

    He who prays does not waste his time. The Lord of History permits some evils but will not allow truth to be wholly subverted.

    Look how pagans, occultist and that favorite synagogue have tried to steal the Christ from Christmas, to the drumbeat of silly Santas, “white” songs, and consumerism.. and yet the inmemorial joy and hope and amazement of the Advent shines through even in childish cartoons. Here’s a charming example:

    Rosary + Advent = Per Mariam ad Iesum.

    • Thanks: Pierre de Craon
  190. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    The Greek language survived because Greeks were literate for few thousands of years. Literacy came late for the ‘Slavs’. Actually the ‘Greeks’ made them the favor to translate everything for them (Cyril and Methodius were Greeks).
    ‘The Jesuits created the artificial nation of Romania’. God Almighty, you are Hungarian!
    Don’t bother to answer. I do not intend to wake you up from your sweet dreams. I closed the door.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  191. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Seraphim

    I was expecting that you have better information from diverse sources. Greeks are nominally Orthodox, but they have secret dealings with Vatican. Plus, Phanar directly works for CIA. Many Turks are actually converted Greeks. Only 200-250K ‘real’ Turks came to Byzantium which had 6 million citizens and many modern Turks are in fact former Greeks. In addition, you are Jewish genetic cousins, so you should have knowledge from various sources (CIA, Mosad) and religions. It is amazing that you don’t know that Jesuits created Romanian nation and language (to separate Serbs from Russians). You probably don’t know that Hungarians are also mostly assimilated Serbs (similar to Bulgarians who are ‘bulgarised’ Serbs, too). So, Romanians and Hungarians mostly have ‘Slavic’ genetics and can be considered as Slavic countries, too. Serbian literacy from Vinca is the oldest in the world (have a look for e.g. Etruscan alphabet) so as the language, C&M were Vatican’s agents, it is a joke that they brought literacy to ‘Slavs’ (if they came in the 7th c, why they would be waiting in Roman Empire for 250 years for someone to bring them some alphabet?), Greeks got literacy in the 6th c.BC when translated Iliad and Odyssey (from which language?). The sc. ‘old Greek language’ was very similar to the language of indigenous people (Pelasgians, Paeonians, Pannonians).

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  192. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    A final recommendation, which came from your own people:

    Vuk Drašković, a Serbian politician and writer, said in “Nova Makedonija” newspaper, Skopje, FYROM, 13–7-1991:

    “I have heard many, as a matter of fact not many but plenty educated people from Skopje (capital of North Macedonia), which out of somewhere believe that Alexander of Macedon was a Slav and that he is their progenitor. There are also simple people who believe in that, but that is not a job for press conferences, but for universities, and if the universities don’t help, then it is a job for doctors.” Psychiatrists, I suppose.

  193. Malla says:
    @Anonymous

    You did not read my comment carefully.

    My apologies. I did not see where you were coming from. I knows when I needs to apologise.

  194. Malla says:
    @geokat62

    do you still feel comfortable with the way you framed your initial statement, above, – i.e., “it was Germanic elements which made the West unique and laid the groundworks for its great emergence.”?

    Yes, those Germanic elements made the West unique and successful. Some may argue, that the post- Roman Empire West is a type of Germanic civilization. But for that you have to view that video I posted or else, I cannot type everything. Even the concepts of liberty and democracy as we understand is has a lot to do with Germanic tribal culture which got infused into mainstream European Civilization, no wonder Iceland has the oldest parliament. After the fall of Roman Empire as Germanics moved into the earlier Roman Empire territory, in many case Germanic elites intermarried with the old Roman aristocracy. But I cannot type everything, you gotta see the video, very well explained.

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @geokat62
  195. Anonymous[415] • Disclaimer says:

    @Malla – Pleasantly surprised with your reaction. No worries, accepted, apologies for a farting response. Cheers.

    @Serco – You’ve found a reference. The guy is a real (not just a figure a speech) psychiatric case for 30 years. Before, he was a writer of speeches to communist political leaders, his father was a ww2 communist murderer who killed hundreds of underaged boys with a suspicion that they were royal sympathizers. Works for CIA and prepared to do anything for money.

    PS: I missed few details from earlier comments (e.g. #1). There are many incorrect things. First, it was not a Greco-Persian war than Macedonian-Persian war. Alexander and Macedonians were NO Greeks. In his battle at the river Granicus (i.e. Granik, this is a Serbian name meaning the ‘border’) Alexander defeated Persians and this win opened him a path to the East. One half of Persian army were Greeks, the most of them got killed the rest were captured and taken to Macedonia to work in mines. The core of Alexander’s army were fighters from Balkan (today’s Serbia) because he left his Macedonians to protect Macedonia. He also had some Greeks in his army, but he did not use them in this battle because he expected their treason. Few Greeks in his army while progressing to India were actually hostages and sons of rich Athenians who guaranteed the peace at home. Many writers were simply forgetting that Greeks lived in cities/polises, did not have horses and they were no warriors (they were in non-fighting units later in Roman army).

    Alexander was not a Greek and because there was a huge celebration in Athens when they heard that he was poisoned. Alexander created a global Empire and removed all borders between individual nations. The fact is that Greeks, after his death, used this borderless situation to spread their influence. Alexander’s dukes, who divided his Empire, were no Greeks, either. (P)Tolomey took Egypt and established his dynasty (the last ruler was Cleopatra), Seleuc took Persia and Mesopotamia, Cassander took Balkan, etc. It is also important to know that Persians were one stream of descendants of Aryans who came from Europe. The other stream were Aryans who came to India. Their (meritocracy) rank system was transformed into the caste system in India.

  196. RobinG says:
    @Malla

    Rudyard Lynch has something of a following. Not sure if I should thank you for yet another rabbit hole.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  197. geokat62 says:
    @Malla

    But I cannot type everything, you gotta see the video, very well explained.

    You mean the video in which the narrator begins by saying:

    “I’m going to start here with a controversial claim, the Greeks and Romans weren’t a part of Western civilisation.”

    … that video?

    • Replies: @Malla
  198. geokat62 says:
    @RobinG

    Not sure if I should thank you for yet another rabbit hole.

    Rabbit hole, indeed.

    Excerpt from, Rudyard Lynch | The Creator Of Whatifalthist:

    Recently, I had the pleasure to interview the creator of the Whatifalthist – Rudyard Lynch. He runs YouTube’s biggest alternative history and geopolitics channel.

    https://atlasgeographica.com/interview-whatifalthist-rudyard-lynch/

    “Alternative” to what? To conventional history, one supposes.

  199. Malla says:
    @geokat62

    … that video?

    Yes that video, one of the best explanation of Western Civilization there is. It cleared my puzzle of what made Western civilization different from byzantine civilization or others.

    controversial claim

    “Controversial” because it goes against the bullshit historical propaganda spewed for so many days.
    “Claims” made on solid historical analysis.
    Watch the whole video. it is good.

    Rabbit hole, indeed.

    Rabbit hole where you actually catch the rabbit.

    alternative history

    SMH. My God! SMHA (Shaking My Head Again) He makes a loads of videos on alternative history but many on real historical analysis as well. I do not agree with everything he says on other videos but that video solid. His main problem is he is not Jew-wise or prefers to remain Jew-unwise so that his videos are not demontised and then banned by jew tube. And he has this liberal Anglo view where all races are equal in their potential of advancement. But his these drawbacks and a few others do not affect that video on Western civilization.

    THIS below is one of his ALTERNATIVE WHAT IF HISTORY Videos

    What if the French had Colonized India?
    Alternative History based on good understanding of history.
    THIS below is NOT one of his ALTERNATIVE WHAT IF HISTORY Videos but a video based on factual historical analysis.

    Understanding Mesopotamian Civilization.

    Understanding this difference is not rocket science.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @RobinG
    , @RobinG
  200. Allan says:
    @Pierre de Craon

    The UN was established by “Western” civilization and is fully a demon of the West’s own making. It counts as more evidence that your civilization needs to be destroyed without mercy for its leaders and without pity for its ignorant, pigheaded masses. If the UN is “an enemy of the Cross”, which is no vice at all, that counts against your objection to the UN. We are fortunate, however, that we don’t need the UN to break the cross, to disperse all congregations of Christian idolators, and to destroy anyone who might lead or support a recidivist movement back to the mangod who committed suicide with assistance.

    • Troll: Pierre de Craon
    • Replies: @Seraphim
  201. Seraphim says:
    @Allan

    A message from ISIS by Jihadi Allan.

  202. geokat62 says:
    @Malla

    Watch the whole video. it is good.

    I watched it all and I disagree that it’s good.

    My biggest criticism is that he completely glossed over the influence of the renaissance on the West.

    He said next to nothing about it.

    The following excerpt outlines what conventional historians have to say about the influence of the renaissance.

    Rudyard Lynch presented absolutely no contradictory evidence to refute the conventional storyline. Nothing.

    Excerpt from, Renaissance:

    Latin and Greek phases of Renaissance humanism

    In stark contrast to the High Middle Ages, when Latin scholars focused almost entirely on studying Greek and Arabic works of natural science, philosophy and mathematics, Renaissance scholars were most interested in recovering and studying Latin and Greek literary, historical, and oratorical texts. Broadly speaking, this began in the 14th century with a Latin phase, when Renaissance scholars such as Petrarch, Coluccio Salutati (1331–1406), Niccolò de’ Niccoli (1364–1437) and Poggio Bracciolini (1380–1459) scoured the libraries of Europe in search of works by such Latin authors as Cicero, Lucretius, Livy and Seneca. By the early 15th century, the bulk of the surviving such Latin literature had been recovered; the Greek phase of Renaissance humanism was under way, as Western European scholars turned to recovering ancient Greek literary, historical, oratorical and theological texts.

    Unlike with Latin texts, which had been preserved and studied in Western Europe since late antiquity, the study of ancient Greek texts was very limited in medieval Western Europe. Ancient Greek works on science, maths and philosophy had been studied since the High Middle Ages in Western Europe and in the Islamic Golden Age (normally in translation), but Greek literary, oratorical and historical works (such as Homer, the Greek dramatists, Demosthenes and Thucydides) were not studied in either the Latin or medieval Islamic worlds; in the Middle Ages these sorts of texts were only studied by Byzantine scholars. Some argue that the Timurid Renaissance in Samarkand and Herat, whose magnificence toned with Florence as the center of a cultural rebirth, were linked to the Ottoman Empire, whose conquests led to the migration of Greek scholars to Italian cities.

    One of the greatest achievements of Renaissance scholars was to bring this entire class of Greek cultural works back into Western Europe for the first time since late antiquity.

    Muslim logicians, most notably Avicenna and Averroes, had inherited Greek ideas after they had invaded and conquered Egypt and the Levant. Their translations and commentaries on these ideas worked their way through the Arab West into Iberia and Sicily, which became important centers for this transmission of ideas. From the 11th to the 13th century, many schools dedicated to the translation of philosophical and scientific works from Classical Arabic to Medieval Latin were established in Iberia, most notably the Toledo School of Translators. This work of translation from Islamic culture, though largely unplanned and disorganized, constituted one of the greatest transmissions of ideas in history.
    The movement to reintegrate the regular study of Greek literary, historical, oratorical and theological texts back into the Western European curriculum is usually dated to the 1396 invitation from Coluccio Salutati to the Byzantine diplomat and scholar Manuel Chrysoloras (c. 1355–1415) to teach Greek in Florence. This legacy was continued by a number of expatriate Greek scholars, from Basilios Bessarion to Leo Allatius.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance

    • Replies: @Malla
  203. RobinG says:
    @Malla

    Nice to give the Germans more credit, but Lynch is too Christian-biased for me. Geo, being both Greek and a proponent of “White” superiority, has a vested interest in proving his entitlement to noble status. Lynch plays around with ‘what if this or that had or hadn’t happened’ but when he gives his interpretation of what actually did happen, it’s funny that anyone who’s a “Holocaust revisionist” would be so adamantly uncharitable to any deviation from standard accepted history. Really, I don’t care enough to dwell on it, and they both seem too narrow in their emphasis.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Malla
  204. RobinG says:
    @Malla

    A little OT, but this is how much the enlightened West hates Islam and the prospect of peace in Asia. And this guy is whack, like Islam wasn’t the whole point of Pakistan.

    Pakistan is opening a dangerous Pandora’s box with the Taliban
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pakistan-is-opening-a-dangerous-pandora-s-box-with-the-taliban/ar-AAS01wx?ocid=msedgntp

    • Replies: @Malla
  205. geokat62 says:
    @RobinG

    Geo, being both Greek and a proponent of “White” superiority, has a vested interest in proving his entitlement to noble status.

    “White” superiority, noble status?

    I’m just a truth seeker. If someone has rock solid evidence to support their assertions. I’ll accept them. If they don’t, I won’t.

    Now, if those aren’t the words of a pure supremacist, I don’t know what is.

  206. Malla says:
    @geokat62

    Thanks geokat62, about the Renaissance.

    • Thanks: geokat62
  207. Malla says:
    @RobinG

    Thanks, I guess Western civilization is too complicated to be defined by narrow viewpoints.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  208. Malla says:
    @RobinG

    Let the Pakistanis have it, Afghanistan is too expensive, under the Taliban, it will be a semi-feudal state but it will have modern demands. Pakistan does not have the money, only China does. For China, it is a shortcut for cheap Iranian oil. They got a cheap deal, 1/4th the price of Russian oil. In my opinion, India should stay out and let Pakistan wade into that minefield. Only problem is India will find it difficult to fund the Balochistan Independence Struggle against Islamabad’s rule in response to Pakistan funding the Kashmiri Independence Struggle against New Delhi’s rule. Only problem is Indian Government is full of ultra-nationalist hotheads, who will end up doing something stupid. Modi is not that different from Erdogan in his mentality but the Anglo-Saxon style Indian state structure (very independent Judiciary to keep check) prevents him from going as autocratic as Erdogan.

  209. Seraphim says:
    @Malla

    It is indeed. It is the anti-Christian bias that obscures the basic continuity between ‘Antiquity’ and ‘Modernity’.

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