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Dysgenics and Low Creativity: Why China Can’t Save Civilization
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It’s possible to derive some comfort from contemplating the Chinese. Sure, unless something radical is done, Western civilization is going to collapse due to the most intelligent women having the fewest children and massive IQ (and highly fertile) immigration from the Third World [See At Our Wits’ End: Why We’re Becoming Less Intelligent and What It Means for the Future, By Edward Dutton and Michael Woodley of Menie] but surely civilization will be preserved by the Chinese. Unfortunately, research is showing that this is just wishful thinking.

Thus the leading IQ researcher Professor Richard Lynn actually proclaimed in his book Dysgenics that China’s one child policy—introduced in 1979 and abolished in 2015—was the saviour of civilization. The strongly cultural desire in China for a boy and the abortion of female fetuses, meant that by the late-1990s, young males massively out-numbered females in China, showed Lynn. The females would naturally be attracted to the wealthiest and most educated males, as these males would be able to provide the optimum lifestyle for them and, anyway, females tend to sexually select for status because doing so, under evolutionary conditions, ensured the survival of their offspring [Women marry up, By Edward Dutton, In T. Shackleford, & V. Shackleford-Weeks,Encyclopaedia of Evolutionary Psychological Science, Springer, 2018]. The inevitable result, argued Lynn: less intelligent Chinese men would fail to breed, as intelligence robustly predicts wealth and status and is about 80% genetic. In addition, the ability to pay the fines for breaking the One-Child law would allow the wealthy, and thus more intelligent, to have more than one child. As such, concluded Lynn China must have “eugenic fertility” and it is to China that the “torch of civilization” will pass. [Richard Lynn: “Eugenics and Dysgenics: A Promise Denied”, YouTube, at 42 minutes]

Unfortunately, this is not what research by a young Chinese psychologist has found. In a study published in 2016 in the leading journal Intelligence, Mingrui Wang presented some shocking—and counter-intuitive—findings. Even despite the one child policy, there is dysgenic fertility in China. [Evidence of Dysgenic Fertility in China, by Mingrui Wang et al, Intelligence, July-August 2016]

The Chinese researcher and his team explored the relationship between intelligence, education-level and fertility, using a large sample from the China Family Panel dataset, which is highly representative of the Chinese population. They found that among the cohort born between 1951 and 1970, the correlation between general intelligence and fertility was -0.1, very similar to that found in Western countries.

Between 1986 and the year 2000, the Chinese lost 0.31 IQ points per decade and between 1971 and the year 2000, the Chinese lost 0.75 IQ points.

The researchers also discovered that education level is negatively associated with fertility in China. And the negative correlation between fertility and both IQ and education level is stronger among females than males.

In other words, though the Chinese have an average IQ of 105 according to Richard Lynn, and despite their introduction of the One-Child policy, they are suffering precisely the same process as the West. The most intelligent females are not selecting for the most intelligent Chinese males or, indeed, any males. As in the West, they are dedicating themselves to their education and then their careers, meaning they are simply failing to pass on their genes at all.

In addition, the strong cultural tradition in China—especially in the low IQ countryside – of desiring sons rather than daughters, leading to selective abortion, is dual-edged. The more intelligent Chinese, living in the cities, are more likely to content themselves with having a daughter. And the more intelligent she is, the more likely she is to have no children, leading to the elimination of her (intelligent) parents’ genes. It is possible that this phenomenon could even be sufficiently strong to undermine any indirect benefits to IQ which may have been wrought by the one child policy.

Slightly less intelligent women are spending all of their twenties dedicated to their careers, only have children in their thirties and not having very many. The least intelligent Chinese women—too low in IQ and impulsive to use contraception—are, it would seem, having excess children even despite the fines and the risk of heavy-handed Communist Party officials (illegally) trying to compel them to have abortions []. Perhaps their husbands see the fines as a price worth paying if it ensures that they get a son.

In addition, the one child policy never even applied to China’s non-Han ethnic minorities. These groups are overwhelmingly rural-dwelling and they have lower IQ than the Han. The more Han a Chinese region is then the smarter it is [Differences in intelligence across the 31 regions of China and their economic and demographic correlates, By Richard Lynn & Helen Cheng, Intelligence, 2013]. For example, the average IQ of Tibetans in 92 [I Q and Mathematics Ability of Tibetans and Han Chinese, By Richard Lynn, Mankind Quarterly], meaning their IQ is almost 15 points lower than that of the Han, similar to that of Greece or Romania. [Intelligence: A Unifying Construct for the Social Sciences, By Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen, Ulster Institute for Social Research, 2012]

This decline is made all the more perilous due to research, led by a Japanese psychologist called Kenya Kura, which has shown that Northeast Asians are genetically less intellectually creative than Europeans. [Why do Northeast Asians Win So Few Nobel Prizes?, By Kenya Kura et al., Comprehensive Psychology, 4: 2015] Northeast Asians, compared to Europeans, have higher gene frequencies of polymorphisms which make people collectivist, socially anxious, and fearful of anything novel. Kura and his team argue that this is adaptation to a particular ecology, where it is vital to stay in a tightly-bonded group.

However, they note that scientific innovators tend to combine very high IQ with an optimally low level of collectivism, low social anxiety and low fearfulness of the new. In other words, they have high “Openness-Intellec t”, as psychologists term this trait. This psychological profile means that they can think outside the box and don’t care about the offence to vested interests which their new idea will almost certainly result in.

This is why, maintains Kura, it is the West that generated the Industrial Revolution, rather than more intelligent Northeast Asians. The West is indeed the Goldilocks Zone for genius.

“The torch of civilization” may well pass to China, but it will continue to get dimmer and dimmer and very little new fuel will be added to it. The torch’s bearer will slide into an increasingly authoritarian dictatorship—as happens to relatively low IQ societies—and the light of civilization will go out, unless it can somehow be passed to a society that is still under eugenic fertility.

Lance Welton [Email him] is the pen name of a freelance journalist living in New York.

(Republished from VDare by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity, Science • Tags: China, Chinese IQ, Dysgenic, IQ 
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  1. Gordo says:

    A colleague of mine who has completed some projects in China tells me emphatically that outside of the coastal elites there is no way their average IQ is as high as 105.

    • Replies: @jgarbo
  2. Talha says:

    dysgenic: tending to promote survival of or reproduction by less well-adapted individuals (such as the weak or diseased) especially at the expense of well-adapted individuals (such as the strong or healthy) the dysgenic effect of war

    So high intelligence seems to be dysgenic…survival of the fittest doesn’t play nice or by our rules.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  3. There have not been any truly representative studies of Chinese IQ or intelligence. Too many people are still excluded from studies conducted in the mainland, often because of government interference, the Chinese tendency toward self-serving embellishment, or simply the inability to obtain a representative sample due to the still extremely disorderly nature of Chinese society. The most laughable case is the Shanghai PISA results — not only not representative of China, but not even close to representative of Shanghai. Studies done using ethnically Chinese people in other countries produce results that are obviously not representative of the entirety of the Chinese ethnicity, as those individuals very often must meet criteria positively correlated with intelligence, ambition, and financial prowess to make their way out of China. Having worked as a factory inspector and teacher in China, I personally doubt the average IQ for the entire Chinese population is over 95 — and that is after having taught in very good schools (i.e., expensive, well-known schools to which rich parents send their kids) in the dark blue regions on the map.

  4. @Read David Brock's Memo

    Come, come. There have been dozens of studies, many of which have been reproduced in The Unz Review.

  5. The strongly cultural desire in China for a boy and the abortion of female fetuses, meant that by the late-1990s, young males massively out-numbered females in China, said Lynn“.

    Dr. Lynn was misinformed. The missing girls, like the Thai boys in the cave, are safe and well. It happened like this:

    In preparation for the 2021 centennial, education officials pledged to complete Mao’s work to liberate women by achieving gender balance in China’s schools and universities (they achieved it in 2018) and in the process discovered thirty million ‘missing’ girls. The Education Ministry had carefully counted girls’ enrollment and graduation rates in 2016 and researchers[1] John Kennedy compared the Ministry’s figures to the previous, 2010 census,

    People think 30 million girls are missing from the population. That’s the population of California–and they think they’re just gone! Most people are using a demographic explanation to say that abortion or infanticide are the reasons girls don’t show up in the census and that they don’t exist. But we find there’s a political explanation. The point of contention is the interaction between the central state’s capacity to influence local officials and the willingness of local officials to implement central policies, especially unpopular policies. We find that millions of unreported female births ‘appear’ in older cohorts [school enrollment years], and this also reflects a cultural shift regarding the value of girls in China. The ‘preference for sons’ cultural argument suggests that parents see sons as necessary for elderly care and contributions to family income while daughters are viewed as a burden. However, scholars suggest that over the last few decades, and especially since the introduction of economic reforms, daughters have contributed more to their natal families (i.e., increased their value). Still, the 1990, 2000 and 2010 censuses show that unreported male births are overwhelmingly registered between the ages of one and ten years old but that the vast majority of children registered after the age of ten are females. This implies an administrative bias towards sons whereby they are registered earlier than daughters, rather than a strict son preference (i.e., fewer daughters)”.

    Kennedy interviewed a farmer who introduced his elder daughter and son by name but referred to his middle daughter as ‘the non-existent one,’ “He told us that his first daughter was registered but that when his second child, a daughter, was born they did not register her and instead waited to have another child. The third child was a boy and they registered him as the second child,” Kennedy said. To keep the peace in their villages officials, often blood relatives, turned a blind eye to children born outside Family Planning limits and left them unreported. Though the government relaxed the rural one-child policy in the 1980s, Kennedy found that village-level enforcement had already bypassed it. The Heavens were high, the Emperor far away and thirty-million girls were where they should be: in school. Today, more girls than boys graduate from university and, when data is normalized for job position and seniority, gender and wage gaps almost disappear.

    As for “The torch of civilization” may well pass to China, but it will continue to get dimmer and dimmer and very little new fuel will be added to it. The torch’s bearer will slide into an increasingly authoritarian dictatorship—as happens to relatively low IQ societies—and the light of civilization will go out“?

    That’s a pretty bold statement about a 3,000 year old civilization that is currently getting smarter every year, on its way to a potential national IQ of 112 (which at least one province has reached).

    According to NIH Director Francis Collins, China leads the world in genomics, “If you ask me where is tit’s not in the United States. It is in Shenzhen, China, at BGI”. BGI is involved in raising the national IQ by identifying genetic clusters in thousands of geniuses so parents can choose their smartest embryos. The service will probably launch in 2019. See Steve Hsu[2], who works on the project.  Meanwhile, China leads the world in most of the hard sciences and nearly all the applied technologies and they’re pulling away. No need for panic yet.

    And if authoritarian governments happen to relatively low IQ societies (like Germany in 1933?), we might ponder this:

    A truly authoritarian leader would have the sole power to:
    – declare war unilaterally and frequently;
    – issue 300,000 national security letters, administrative subpoenas with gag orders that enjoin recipients from ever divulging they’ve been served;
    – control information at all times than any monarch in history under the National Security and Emergency Preparedness Communications Functions.
    –torture, kidnap and assassinate anyone anywhere at will.

    Personal freedom in an authoritarian state would be limited by
    – secretly banning 50,000 people from flying and refusing requests for an explanation
    – imprisoning 2,000,000 people witout trial
    – executing 2,000 people each year prior to arrest.

    In a real an authoritarian state there would be
    – warrantless surveillance of private phone and email conversations by the NSA;
    – SWAT team raiding homes;
    – shootings of unarmed citizens by police;
    – harsh punishment of schoolchildren in the name of zero tolerance;
    – endless wars;
    – out-of-control spending;
    – militarized police;
    –roadside strip searches;
    – roving TSA sweeps;
    – privatized prisons with a profit incentive for jailing Americans;
    – fusion centers that collect and disseminate data on citizens’ private transactions;
    – militarized agencies with stockpiles of ammunition

    No Chinese leader, including Mao, has ever had one such power. The US President has and exercises all of them. Regularly.

    [1] Delayed Registration and Identifying the “Missing Girls” in China. The China Quarterly, Volume 228. December 2016, pp. 1018-1038
    [2] https://youtu.be/62jZENi1ed8. See also https://arxiv.org/pdf/1408.3421.pdf

    • Replies: @Per/Norway
    , @m___
  6. Yee says:

    If Westerners want to know the IQ of the Chinese poor, they can take samples of 3rd or above generation North America Chinese.

    Most of them are descendants of the poorest people of China. Only the most desperate poor sold themselves for overseas slave labour back then.

    Anyway, IQ is Pseudo-science. It serve no purpose except making people feel good about themselves, or feel bad. China don’t run routine IQ test at school.

    • Agree: utu
  7. Patricus says:
    @Yee

    Yee is probably right about IQ studies being pseudo science. When I was a student in the 1970s the psychology profession was dismissive of IQ scores. It was then believed there were 10 or 12 different aptitudes including spoken language, written language, math, spatial reasoning and others. Somehow the single IQ score, which apparently explains everything, came back to popularity. Would these scores be allowed as evidence in a court of law?

  8. The real authoritarian state sounds like the United States. Of course, you high IQers will blame it on liberals or some other braindead winger chimera.

    • Replies: @CrisS
  9. @Read David Brock's Memo

    And have you looked at the white students in the US and Europe?

    If you think that China is 95, then whites must be even lower

    And the PISA was not limited to Shanghai they did 12 provinces, and even the poorest provinces dominated

    Several PISA administrators from Europe surveyed poor chinese schools with no heating in extremely poor regions and administered tests personally

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-17585201

    >Mr Schleicher says the unpublished results reveal that pupils in other parts of China are also performing strongly.

    >”Even in rural areas and in disadvantaged environments, you see a remarkable performance.”

    >In particular, he said the test results showed the “resilience” of pupils to succeed despite tough backgrounds – and the “high levels of equity” between rich and poor pupils.

    And in addition poor Vietnam also beats white countries in PISA

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  10. @Hbd investor

    And yet, the Chinese have to steal our technology because they can’t come up with their own. It seems they have difficulty understanding what they steal from us.

    Vietnam? Come on. It’s a shithole.

    • Agree: Stan d Mute
    • Replies: @Another German Reader
  11. The idea that East Asians are less creative is laughable

    The paper linked showing east asians are less creative is pure malarkey, and the author simply states that asians are more collective and conservative and then uses that for an explanation for why the Europeans were the first to industrialize.

    The ability to invent, is highly dependent on factors such as a demand to invent, and the resources and time needed.

    Typically pre industrial scientific advances were done by the idle rich aristocracy who lived lives of luxury as land owners who collected rent, because they were the only ones who could afford education and had the wealth to buy scientific equipment not because they were more creative and intelligent than the peasants

    They had the money to order craftsman to build things like test tubes, and order peasants to collect various rocks and chemicals

    If we look at say cooking, say chicken.

    The chinese had far more numerous recipes to boil, steam, deepfry, bake, grill, smoke

    Or how about swords?

    European swords

    Meanwhile the chinese had numerous types of swords

    Not only did they have the stiff ones used by historical europe, they made scimitars, a flexible whiplike sword (dao), tiger hook swords, and the 9 ring sword

    So now you are probably asking, if the chinese are indeed creative then why didn’t they industrialize?

    This has all been explained by Karl Marx and by Thanos

    In order to do science, you need capital accumulation

    The aristocracy historically did science because they had capital

    China never had capital accumulation, since all excess capital went to serve a ever growing population

    Europe on the other hand had The black death, which led to a smaller population that inherited wealth from a larger population, the black death ended the middle ages and started the Renaissance

    This is the same reason why Thanos wanted to wipe out half of earths population, so the surviving half would have plenty of resources and be able to pursue and advance science rather than science stagnating due to capital and resources being split amongst a massive population.

  12. >And yet, the Chinese have to steal our technology because they can’t come up with their own

    China leads the world in trapped ion quantum computers, photonic quantum computers, has the world’s first quantum satellite, world’s first superconducting tokomak (only 2 in the world south korea has the other one but has not been able to beat the chinese one), has built the submarine with the world’s deepest dive.

    There are numerous other chinese scientific achievements

    Pick up any science journal and look at all the chinese names.

    It’s funny how layman who never bothered to pick up a science journal, somehow believes that they are qualified to determine who is stealing from who, and who has made contributions to what

    >Vietnam? Come on. It’s a shithole

    Yet they dominate Europeans in the Pisa which was my entire point

    Wealthy Europeans with the best healthcare, education and living standards can’t beat a bunch of partially east asians 3rd worlders in reading, science and math

    • Replies: @attilathehen
    , @WHAT
    , @Phille
    , @Karl
  13. @Hbd investor

    The Chinese are notorious cheaters.

    Who would want to live in Vietnam besides the Vietnamese?

    The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Seraphim
  14. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition Chi-Commies! (especially under a Lance Weldon post).

    It’s a sad, sad state of affairs on unz.com when attila-the-hen writes by far the sanest comment so far.

    I will say that Godfree Robert’s statement about current Police State USSA is accurate, but you write, Godfree, as if there is no such thing as history. I’ve read your crap before, and you are nothing but Pro-Mao, pro-Commie, and pro-China, with no earthly idea of the dark side. Good luck over there. No matter how much you think you fit in, you’ll always be a white ghost over there, and if (hopefully not) there are really bad relations to come, you’d better watch your 6. China cult-revs go a lot farther than the current US one has, as Americans will remain armed. I am exhibit A.

    • Replies: @Random Smartaleck
    , @ger
  15. Medvedev says:

    Hard to believe that 1.4bln Chinese have the same average IQ as more homogeneous Koreans (106) or Japanese (105). If many provinces, judging by the map, have lower IQ than other provinces with hundreds of millions of people have higher IQ than Japanese and Koreans.

    Other Chinese neighbors have lower IQ: Thailand 91, Vietnam 94, Cambodia 90. I would expect IQ in different Chinese provinces to fall between 91 and 106. And the average IQ to be somewhere between 98 and 100.

    • Replies: @Anon
  16. WHAT says:
    @Hbd investor

    >muh Thanos analogies
    Ahahahaha, nice one! Oh wait, you`re serious.

    And sword bullshit is just that. European swords are all function over form, and would be more than sufficient to cut through any oriental katana folded over 9000 times.

  17. WHAT says:
    @Hbd investor

    Kek. Wake me up when they are finally able to at least reproduce MTBF or spool-up characteristics of a russian engine design made 30 years ago(and they have those things in metal for decades now) or build any kind of supercomp using indigenous specialists instead of western mercenaries. Or at least an actually quiet sub. Or a complex ship that is not a full-on copypaste. Or at least something that does not explode spontaneously.

    Or when they stop driving over their own children.

    • Replies: @Hbd investor
  18. m___ says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    To Welton and Roberts both,

    The core argument against dysgenic China is the not accounted for female offspring is the point made in the comment? This goes against the article, being mute on this, and using the imbalance between girls and boys as an argument for a dysgenic China.

    Two things, is this so, are Welton’s sources wrong, partly wrong. Secondly, does this in itself account for the annihilation of the dysgenic factor, is this rather a neutral phenomenon, and in case, the “later accounted for” girls do not exist, does this make China dysgenic, or again is this a neutral factor, a one of more variables, what we suspect.

    We await you both to elaborate on this. Unz.com at it’s best for once.

    • Replies: @Godfree Roberts
    , @FKA Max
  19. @m___

    Need it be said that Unz.com is always at its best? It is inconsistent because scribblers, like your humble servant, are human.

    Alas, I am not qualified to address your point. My speciality is our misconceptions about China, a fertile field I promise you.

  20. @attilathehen

    A shithole, which as a lower-middle income country beats all Latin-American, Arab, SSA and its’ richer neighbours and India and is already on par with poorer European countries

    [MORE]
    in all international education comparisons.

    The shithole with the fastest growing middle-class in the world.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  21. @WHAT

    >muh Thanos analogies

    >Ahahahaha, nice one! Oh wait, you`re serious.

    Numerous scholars have written about the Malthusian Trap, the writers at marvel did not create a new economic theory. The general consensus amongst economists is that high population equals low GDP per capita due to declining returns on labor and division of capital and natural resource constraints, while killing half the population increases GDP per capita and concentrates capital.

    The general consensus amongst historians and economists is that the black death gave rise to the Renaissance which led to Industrialization.

    http://www1.umassd.edu/euro/resources/worldeconomy/1.pdf

    Escaping from the Malthusian Population Trap in Northwestern Europe

    >Second, income per capita is negatively related to population size due to a diminishing return to labor. The classic example for this is the Black Death of the 14th century. As European populations declined by approximately one-third to half their level before the plague, wages rose since here were far fewer workers available for a similar level of technology, resources and fixed capital.

    >And sword bullshit is just that. European swords are all function over form, and would be more than sufficient to cut through any oriental katana folded over 9000 times.

    The historical ignorance is real, the Chinese and Japanese both had straight swords similar to European swords.

    The main point was that the Europeans created mainly two types of swords curved swords sabre’s and straight swords but they never created anything similar to tiger hook swords, nor did it ever occur to the Europeans to add rings to their swords (Chinese 9 ringed sword)

    This is strong evidence that on average the Chinese are more creative when given the same material metal and the ability to shape said metal into different forms, the Chinese were able to create everything the European mind created and more.

    And these swords were not decorative, the tiger hook sword was effective with multiple killing edges and the hook could grab onto other weapons and shields. The 9 ringed sword was a training weapon that the user wielded during training to receive feedback on proper strikes. A properly swung sword would cause all the rings to make certain sounds.

    Likewise we see the same pattern in almost everything, the European mind could only conceive boiling noodles while the Chinese conceived stir frying, steaming and even deep frying (seafood bird nest)

    Likewise even kitchen utensils both groups created spoons, knives and forks but the Europeans never conceived chopsticks. Which are useful for eating anything that you do not want pierced.

  22. @WHAT

    >Kek. Wake me up when they are finally able to at least reproduce MTBF or spool-up characteristics of a russian engine design made 30 years ago(and they have those things in metal for decades now) or build any kind of supercomp using indigenous specialists instead of western mercenaries. Or at least an actually quiet sub. Or a complex ship that is not a full-on copypaste. Or at least something that does not explode spontaneously.

    The J-20 runs on Chinese made engines (WS-10B) superior to the engines on the SU-35 the AL-41F

    The AL-41F (iz 117)is Russia’s most advanced engine and is used on the SU-35 and the SU-57 prototypes

    And the Sunway supercomputer is indigenous

    The WS-15 is even more powerful, and is already being set up for mass production with the first one to be delivered by next year. The WS-15 is superior to the engines on the F-22

  23. @Another German Reader

    Is there Asian poontang in your life? No way I would want to be a second tier Asian. Vietnam has hit its peak.

    • Replies: @Escher
    , @Stan d Mute
  24. Lin says:
    @Yee

    I’m completely at ease if not comfortable when Chinese IQs are rated low or at least not as high as thought. BTW, I usually don’t like talking about IQ because no matter how people babble on IQs of this or that group, fact is the IQ advocates can’t change the reality. I live in HK and I’ve relatives who are highly successful as well as relatives whose lifestyles are similar to the ghetto NAMs in US…
    1)One of them was raised in resettlement slum without household toilets and he got to rush 3 floors down to take a leak. Some 10 yrs ago, he was interviewed by local TV in the capacity of a senior executive of a financial institution.
    2)Another one went to jail for committing gang related crimes
    3)My youngest brother studied so hard that he scared my mom because he studied non-stop after supper well passed mid-night and refused to go to bed
    ………….
    There’s an ancient Chinese motto–Lack of talents can be compensated by hard work勤能补拙.
    ……
    Actually ‘low Chinese IQ’ or ‘Chinese aren’t innovative’ polemics are actually what China needs to counter ‘yellow peril/sinphobia’ propaganda

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  25. No, I’m just a frequent business traveller in East-/Southeast-Asia.

    The Vietnamese came out of devastating civil war and 10 years of failed socio-economic policies and now are already ahead of many other developing countries.

    Vietnam in 2018 is where China was in 2000 or S-Korea/Taiwan in 1978.

    If you live in Europe, come to this years’ Paris Auto Show and see the first sign of Vietnamese grand ambition:

    (Yes, they are getting help from the Italians & Germans, but any master was a student once.)

    Even with moderate IQ, ambition & hard work can carry you very far: Indonesian medium-tank prototype:

    But both Indonesians and Viets have cohesive societies. Something the clannish Arabs, tribal SS-Africans and the stratified Latinos don’t have.

    Soon the West will join the club of mediocrity.

    • Agree: Triumph104
  26. FKA Max says: • Website
    @m___

    I have looked into these matters and came to the conclusion that the most dysgenic factor in Chinese culture is their “Social Darwinist” tendency and history:

    So if we consider selection for male wealth as a proxy for selection for intelligence, once again, it’s been stronger in Africans due to the polygynous nature of the traditional societies there and the increased reproductive success of wealthy men in polygynous societies.

    This is the wrong conclusion to draw, in my opinion, and precisely the mistake the IQ-ist/Social Darwinist crowd has made. They, in most cases, equate greater wealth with higher intelligence. I believe collective/societal/national/per capita wealth/GDP/productivity can be a good and useful proxy for the average intelligence of large populations, especially for nations/societies which are not natural resource exporters, e.g. oil, gas, etc., or tax havens, etc., but individual wealth can be a bit of a misleading proxy for intelligence, when wealth, wages, titles, political offices, business/family connections etc. can be inherited, etc., which is a common practice, especially in more corrupt and “traditional” societies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
    [...]

    It seems that very harsh and “Social Darwinist” environments and cultures do not necessarily select for intelligence exclusively, or maybe not even predominately, but that they mostly select for risk taking, aggressiveness, ruthlessness, i.e., psychopathic and rather anti-social traits.
    [...]
    So the less chauvinistic/“macho” a race or culture is the more likely it is to select for intelligence and low(er) testosterone, i.e., lower aggressiveness, and against the “warrior gene,” i.e., psychopathy.

    http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/#comment-1866207

    https://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2071354

    Godfree Roberts is correct that the gender imbalance in China is not as severe as it was initially believed to be (see graph towards the bottom of this comment), nevertheless Chinese culture is rather patriarchal as opposed to being matriarchal “This male-heavy gender imbalance is not seen in some emerging nations, such as Thailand, Indonesia and the Philippines, partly because these countries have matriarchal cultures. However, the demographic changes in India, China and Vietnam, which account for about 60% of Asia’s population, have a big impact on the rest of the region.” – http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/#comment-1866207

    So, as I stated above, in my opinion, “Social Darwinist” Chinese/Confucian culture/society does not select for intelligence and creativity, but rather for conformity and ambition, and IQ tests, in my opinion, are a better measure/test of the latter than the former: “I think what is important to reiterate is that IQ tests seem to measure and predict certain things very accurately [...] but they do ironically/paradoxically only seem to test “intelligence” to a limited extent”http://www.unz.com/jthompson/piffers-equation-further-updated/#comment-2301523

    [I wonder though. Why has higher intelligence not disappeared then?]

    It is still being selected for, but the how exactly is important and difficult to figure out. This is just speculation on my part so far, but I suspect and my research has led me to believe, that with greater emancipation of women selection for intelligence rather than aggressiveness, etc. actually increases. This could be another explanation for the Flynn Effect; greater emancipation and protection of women, which enables them to select their mates by traits they prefer and like, like intelligence and agreeableness rather than aggressiveness and violence/anti-social behavior.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/tomster-on-marriage/#comment-1838477 and http://www.unz.com/jthompson/womens-brains/#comment-1848017

    Source: https://www.unz.com/article/investigating-a-great-though-flawed-investigator/#comment-2440069

    There was an interesting Twitter comment on this article on the VDare Twitter page, which I agree with:

    @witchysloot
    Replying to @vdare

    East Asian high IQ is basically high functioning autism tbh
    8:45 AM – 26 Aug 2018

    • Replies: @m___
  27. females tend to sexually select for status because doing so, under evolutionary conditions

    Where do people get the idea that females select for anything? Soap operas?

    Through most of known history, parents did the selecting.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  28. In a letter in the very last print edition of American Renaissance, the classicist E Christian Kopff slammed Prof Lynn for having defended polygamy as eugenic for the Bushmen of southern Africa. It’s worth reading.

    If the Bushmen themselves have ever produced anything worth reading, do please inform us.

  29. @Another German Reader

    If this was meant for me, focus on Germany. You need to expel blacks/Asians/Muslims/Jews from your country.

    • Replies: @Another German Reader
  30. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Reg Cæsar

    Although the choice of a marriage partner was surely substantially codetermined by family interests and concerns in older European societies, we must not overlook the fact that, given the relatively large age gap between generations, the bride’s or bridegroom’s parents would no longer be alive in a high percentage of marriages. In addition, being employed as a servant took many young people far away from home. We can generally assume that a particularly high degree of self-determination in choosing a partner was to be found in the lower levels of society, where the age at marriage was especially high. The principle of marriage by consent, endorsed by the Christian Church, enhanced the trend to increased self-determination that was linked to marriage later in life. The Western Church’s concept in the High Middle Ages of marriage as a sacrament was based on the view that each partner offers the sacrament to the other. The idea of consent is an essential, fundamental principle of the conjugal family, where the relationship between the couple is central, not ties of descent. What rested on the principle of consent — seen in the long term — was the ideal of marrying for love, but the obverse did as well: the particular vulnerability of a type of relationship based on personal inclination and the freedom to decide for onself.”https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/but-what-about-the-english/ Archived link: http://archive.is/FpJnj

    This ties in with my previous comment http://www.unz.com/article/dysgenics-and-low-creativity-why-china-cant-save-civilization/#comment-2486057 , and this excellent blog post by Mr. Sailer:

    Conformity and Cousin Marriage

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/conformity-and-cousin-marriage/

    [MORE]

    Commenter Robert Hume writes:

    It has occurred to me that the reason why some groups of Europeans seem to have greater creativity then equally intelligent Asians may be due to their method of finding mates for marriage.

    Family arranged marriages, such as in much of Asia and much of the Middle East look for indicators of social approval and success within the current social milieu such as doing well on achievement tests which are socially coupled to success in life.

    On the other hand, in historical England for example, the female chooses the male, and, in this case, going back to Darwin, the males may exhibit a broad spectrum of capabilities; some very maladaptive and some extremely adaptive. Those that are extremely adaptive have more children.

    I wonder if there is a greater variance in male IQ in historical England than in China.

    Leaving aside plain IQ, I suspect that love marriages select for a wider variety of personality types and other traits in offspring than do arranged marriages, with the historic English predilection for young lovers selecting their own mates (e.g., in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet) perhaps leading to the famous English appreciation for individualism and eccentricity. [...]

    I commented on the blog post:

    The English seem to have best recognized the importance and power of humor as an easily testable proxy for identifying intelligence. Giving young women more say in the selection of their mate is likely highly eugenic. No other culture that I know of has a more subtle, sophisticated, i.e., highly developed/advanced sense of humor and humor culture than the English

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/conformity-and-cousin-marriage/#comment-1834845

    Joking aside, British really do have unique sense of humour

    Transatlantic survey of identical twins shows our taste for biting satire and withering one-liners is in the genes

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/joking-aside-british-really-do-have-unique-sense-of-humour-793491.html

    [...]
    However, negative humour – teasing and ridicule, as well as more offensive, racist or sexist forms of humour, together with self-disparaging humour – appeared to be genetically linked only in Britain.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/conformity-and-cousin-marriage/#comment-1835042

  31. However, they note that scientific innovators tend to combine very high IQ with an optimally low level of collectivism, low social anxiety and low fearfulness of the new. In other words, they have high “Openness-Intellec t”, as psychologists term this trait. This psychological profile means that they can think outside the box and don’t care about the offence to vested interests which their new idea will almost certainly result in.

    Sounds like Elon Musk.

  32. Jim says:
    @Read David Brock's Memo

    It would be desirable to have more representative data on the IQ of the Chinese population. However there is extensive data on the IQ of the Japanese population and the results obtained by Japanese vs. western psychometricians do not differ significantly. These studies indicate an average population IQ of 107 in Japan. Given the genetic similarity between Han Chinese and Japanese it is very unlikely that the average IQ of the Han Chinese is anywhere near as low as 95.

    • Replies: @m___
    , @Nawyr
  33. Anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @attilathehen

    Before copying the West, Japan copied everything from China. Japanese civilization is based on Chinese civilization. By your logic, the Chinese should be more intelligent than the Japanese, since the Japanese copied from both China and the West, whereas China copies from the West.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  34. Anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20110813170529/http://classics.lss.wisc.edu/~bbpowell/web/china.htm

    The contributions of the Han weigh enormously into the accomplishment of civilization, though are almost unknown, even to the Chinese themselves, who think of their great contributions as merely “The Four Inventions:” gunpowder, the compass, paper, and printing. But Joseph Needham of Cambridge University, who died in 1995, the greatest sinologist of his generation, spent his long life assembling evidence for the other extraordinary Chinese achievements in science and technology, published in his monumental Science and Civilization in China, of which nine volumes and several supplements have appeared. According to Needham’s work, the Han also invented the row cultivation of crops, the iron plow, and the horse collar, which transformed European agriculture when it came West in 700 A.D., 1,000 years after its invention in China. They invented the seed-drill, cast iron, and discovered how to make steel from cast iron. They invented the double-acting piston bellows, the crank handle, deep drilling for natural gas, the belt drive, water power, the suspension bridge, the essentials of the steam engine, the segmental arch bridge, lacquer, strong beer, petroleum and natural gas as fuel, the wheelbarrow, sliding calipers, and the fishing reel. The Chinese invention of the stirrup revolutionized warfare when it reached Europe in the 5th century A.D. and made possible the heavily armed knight, the crusades, and medieval romance. Of course the Chinese invented porcelain, a high-fired special clay–sometimes translucent–which rings when struck, always the most valued ceramic in the world. The Chinese invented the umbrella, biological pest control, matches, and chess, though most think the game came from India. They invented brandy and whiskey (which we could never seem to find), the mechanical clock, and systems of movable type seven hundred years before Gutenberg. They invented playing-cards and paper money, the spinning-wheel, the decimal system, the kite, and first experimented with manned flight with kites, made the first relief maps and invented the rudder. The Chinese first found a place for zero, invented negative numbers, and learned how to extract higher roots. They first worked with decimal fractions, used algebra in geometry, refined the value of pi, and defined “Pascal’s” triangle of binomial coefficients. The paddle-wheel boat is a Chinese invention too, as is land sailing, the canal pound-lock, batten sails and staggered masts, multiple masts, leeboards, and watertight compartments in ships. Already in the Shang dynasty (1800-1200 B.C.) the Chinese had invented the large tuned bell and tuned drums. Daoist priests discovered hermetically sealed research laboratories and first understood musical timbre and equal temperament in music (how to make the circle of fifths correspond with the octave, so that music can be modulated from key to key). In warfare the Chinese remained for long transcendent, inventing poison gas, smoke bombs, tear gas, the crossbow, flame-throwers, flares, grenades, metal cased bombs, land and sea-mines, and the rocket, both single and multistage. They invented the fire stick and the first true gun. The Chinese first understood how to diagnose diabetes through urine analysis and described the circulation of the blood 1,800 years before it was understood in the West. The Chinese discovered the solar wind, made the first Mercator map-projection, and recognized sunspots as solar phenomena. They understood circadian rhythms in the human body in the 2nd century B.C., invented the helicopter rotor and propeller, and the seismograph, and described the first law of motion 2,000 years before Newton. Only a European could discover and explain to Chinese their own past, because in China the past is not made by men striving for perfection, but is a moral pageant illustrating the universal state’s approach to and decline from heavenly favor. In China there has never been, and can never be, a scientific historiography.

  35. @Talha

    I don’t think that’s the conclusion to draw (even tongue-in-cheek); intelligence concentrates upwards, and furthermore regression to the mean is being exposed for the sham propaganda pseudoscience that we all anticipated it would be.

    There’s a difference between traits that select for numerical success (which yields more players on the field, each with about-average skills), and traits that select for greater relative success (a smaller number of players, all of whom have elite skills).

    I was in the throes of making an analogy with the vanishingly-small proportion of queens in bee (and ant) populations, and the persistence of queen bees/ants – but frankly that’s a bit of a shit analogy … since the queens do all the reproducing for the hive/colony.

    Fuck it – let’s go there.

    Bees (and ants) are almost all neutered females; the exceptions are drones (stingless males who do not work and whose sole role is to mate with the queen) and queens.

    Each colony of ~10K-20K bees has 1 queen (which makes a queen rarer than an individual human with an IQ of about 160) and 200-ish drones (making drones as rare as a human with an IQ of about 135).

    They persist – despite their rarity – because they have a niche. There is no ‘eugenic’ pressure for the number of queens or drones to expand, but an expansion of their numbers would not be obviously dysgenic (a new queen generally will mean the establishment of another colony).

    Humans with elite cognitive ability have the most obvious and persistent niche in human civilisation; they are the originators of all innovation, which augments the productivity of all humans (they need slightly-less-elite humans to operationalise their innovations: really smart people have almost zero commercial nous).

    Cognitively-elite humans will keep that niche until we develop Artificial Super-Intelligence (ASI) – in a decade or so – at which point it all becomes moot because reproduction will be irrelevant.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @Talha
  36. @Lin

    without household toilets and he got to rush 3 floors down to take a leak

    See, this I don’t understand.

    Why not piss in a bucket or bottle and empty it when it’s convenient?

    Confession: In the late 80s I was profoundly influenced by the post-recovery toilet habits of a good friend who was incapacitated for several months in his early 20s as a result of a t12-L1 spinal fracture. After his recovery, Scott kept a urinal bottle – for the simple expedient of not having to get up to piss in the night. Seemed like a brilliant idea, and I adopted it – with the additional constraint that the bottle had to have a lid. Fucking ROCKS.

    I know – eeew, TMI gross.

  37. @Patricus

    the psychology profession was dismissive of IQ scores

    … in much the same way that the theology ‘profession’ was dismissive of heliocentrism.

    That’s not much of a point against IQ: if anything, being dismissed by the worse-than-placebo innumerate witch-doctors of anything starting with ‘psych’, is a decent half-point in its favour.

    History is replete with groups of charlatans who pretend to have insight into something, who disliked shit that went against their particular pulled-out-of-someone’s-ass dogma.

  38. @Anonymous

    I know this. And yet, only Japan has a first world, democratic country in Asia. China is a shithole.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @jgarbo
  39. Anon[184] • Disclaimer says:
    @Read David Brock's Memo

    China still suffers the effect of a lousy diet. You can’t raise high IQ children on a lot of rice and very little meat protein. If they ate a western diet, they’d have a higher IQ.

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  40. YEE

    You made this point about a year ago on Robert’s site and it is relevant.

    1870′s saw a huge wave of Chinese pigtails to California from Guangdong. They were laborers and career prostitutes with a few highly-feared Tongs intent on making money from vice in railroad boom towns off opium sales (Nothing changes) and gambling.

    These early Chinese immigrants were an unruly headache and nightmare for the white authorities of San Francisco. Their neglected kids ran wild in the streets, sometimes robbing whites, and at one point the police force simply went into their slums and shot Chinese street urchins.

    But over the last 100 years, they assimilated and are now firmly middle-class. They don’t even live in Chinatown anymore. They moved into the suburbs in the mid-20th century.

    The second wave of Chinese immigrants post-1965 to the US were technocrats or skilled tradespeople and had less trouble finding gainful employment. I grew up with these Chinese. Most were Cantonese or from Beijing.

    It was not until the 1990′s that the Chinese new-rich arrived. The US was more than happy to have their money.

    You are correct that Old Stock Chinese-Americans are not the real new wealthy or famous tech millionaires.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Bucky
  41. Anon[184] • Disclaimer says:
    @Medvedev

    People in the western Chinese provinces show the effect of the hiving off of their best and brightest to the eastern coastal region. The Imperial Examination system has for several centuries been drawing those with the best verbals skills away from the provinces and giving them jobs on the east coast. Do it for enough generations, and the provincial west will end up with exactly what testing shows, namely a lower overall verbal ability than the east.

    None of this is any surprise considering China’s history. Ancient China very likely had a more evenly spread set of IQs than it does today.

  42. Anonymous[789] • Disclaimer says:
    @attilathehen

    Being a “first world, democratic country” means being a feminized society run by women and homosexuals. It means a society literally devoted to worshiping the shithole. It’s not a point of pride, except for gay pride.

  43. @Kratoklastes

    Let us look at Derbyshire’s “over-classes” or more commonly what are referred to as “market-dominant minorities”-

    In the US, these are purportedly Jews.

    In Southeast Asia, these are unarguably Fuji Chinese.

    In the LA ghetto, it is Koreans.

    In Latin America, it was a small number of Basque emigrants from the Spanish-France border. This includes Castro, Pinochet.

    So this is nothing new and of course China, like the US, is run by a thin sliver of East Coast while Turks in Western China are wholly barbarians.

  44. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m curious why white people cling to the creativity angle so much when white people themselves are not so creative.

    Sure, Jews definately are. But to try and make creativity a white characteristic is absurd. Blacks are definitely more creative than whites, so are Latinos. Arabs are in a bad spot right now with Islam sucking all of the life out of them, but if you know their culture and history I would even say that Arabs are more creative than whites.

    So the only people whites are definitely more creative than are East Asians. Whoopty do. Japan being the wealthiest Asian nation has definately shown creativity, more so than most European nations except the white countries with Jews like America.

    The creativity meme is clearly just insecure white people grasping at straws to try and find something to make up for the lower iq.

    • Replies: @Logan
  45. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    So, you grew up in the 1980s in the black ghettoes of Detroit, the wealthy White college town of Ann Arbor 50 miles from Detroit and now you grew up among Chinese in the 1980s.

    Where did you live that you grew up among Chinese?

    Maybe you should read your old posts so you can keep your stories straight

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  46. All these IQ predictions for the future ignore technological developments like gene editing and egg selection, which are coming soon and could be a total game-changer. The Chinese would have less moral compunctions with using such technologies also.

  47. tamo says:

    [Using proper spacing, punctuation, and capitalization is important if you want your comments published.]

    This is another bullshit article saying Chinese are not creative. The only reason the Western culture has dominated for the last 250 years is that it’s power has ascended greatly since the Industrial Revolution. Things are going to change in this century. Before the Industrial Revolution, Europe was basically a copying and adaptive culture. The Greek civilization was NOT an ORIGINAL civilization like the Chinese civilization. The Greek civilization was heavily influenced by both Egyptian and Mesopotamian civilizations ( Greek myths and religion had their roots in various Mesopotamian and Egyptian beliefs).. The Greek architecture and medicine were adopted from Egypt and ancient Greeks extensively borrowed from Babylonians ( the ancestors of the present day Arabs) for it’s astronomy and mathematics and even it’s alphabet was based on the non- European Semitic Phoenician alphabet. How about Christianity which was originated among non-European Semitic people?.

    [MORE]

    As you can see, the Greeks were the biggest copycats in the ancient world. During this ancient time period, there were Confucius, Laozi, Mozi, Zhangzi, Mencius, Sun tsu, etc in China whose thoughts were at least as great as those of any Greek thinkers.Before you wrote this outdated Eurocentric trash, you should have read SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION IN CHINA by Joseph Needham which was picked as one of the 100 best English language non-fictions of the 20th century by Random House. I’m going to list some of many Chinese inventions and ideas that were transmitted to the backward Europe through direct, indirect, stimulus diffusion before the Industrial Revolution (some of the Chinese technologies were even transmitted at the late stage of the Industrial Revolution). China invented compass, rudder, leeboard, centerboard, multi-mast and also watertight compartments (Europe didn’t use for their ships until the late 18th century). Without adopting all these Chinese inventions, the European voyages of discovery wouldn’t have been possible. Also China invented not only paper but also printing (both woodblock and movable type about 400 years before Gutenberg who had been vey likely influenced by the movable type developments in China and Korea beforehand, developed one). Without assimilating these Chinese inventions, the SPREAD of Renaissance would have been extremely difficult. China invented not only gunpowder but also gun, cannon, rocket including multi-stage ones, both land and sea mines, bomb, even hand grenade. All these Chinese military technologies were transmitted to Europe by direct or indirect diffusion . Can you imagine the modern military without these Chinese inventions? China even invented the mechanical clock in the 8th century with the invention of the ESCAPEMENT FOR EXACT TIME-KEEPING. This Chinese mechanical clock technology was first transmitted to the Islamic civilization then to the Moslem-occupied Spain. After assimilating the previous Chinese and Moslem mechanical clock -making technologies, in the early 14th century Europe finally developed more advanced mechanical clock, run by falling weight or springs rather than falling water or mercury. Also the first industrial revolution which is represented by mechanization and mass-production in the human history took place in Song Dynasty in the 11th century. China utilized water mills extensively for massive industrial and agricultural productions. Even the European Enlightenment was heavily influenced by many of Chinese thoughts. As a matter of fact, many Enlightenment thinkers such as Montaigne, Leibniz, Voltaire, Quesnay, etc. were enamored with the ancient Chinese idea of mandate of heaven that essentially declared that an UNFIT king should be overthrown. These European scholars thought the mandate of heaven idea was much more enlightening than the rigid and primitive European idea of the divine right of king to rule forever no matter what. There is no doubt this Chinese idea of mandate of heaven influenced the French Revolution. Also these European thinkers had a high opinion of the Chinese bureaucratic system based on meritocracy through civil service examinations, while denouncing the privileges of the European hereditary aristocracy. Even the concept of LAISSEZ-FAIRE CAPITALISM, also known as FREE- MARKET CAPITALISM (the most Ideal form of capitalism) was borne around the 6th century BC in China. Both Taoists and Confucian scholars believed in little or no state intervention in economic activities. From about 2nd century BC on, Chinese dynasties practiced free market economy while only intervening from time to time in iron and salt enterprises and also by and large they kept taxes low. The Chinese idea of laissez-faire capitalism greatly influenced the French economist Quesnay who in turn influenced Adam Smith. Also in the 18th century all things Chinese were a rage in Europe. Europeans copied Chinese architecture, interior decoration, tea-drinking, etc. As you can see it was the Europeans copying Chinese, not the other way around. It’s no accident China and India were the two biggest economies in the world from the 1st century to the end of the 18th century. Also China invented blast furnace coking – coal, so called- Bessemer Steel Process, Siemens’ Steel process, weaving machine( the British weaving machine was based on Italian design that in turn was based on original Chinese model. So in other words, the design of Chinese silk weaving machine was first transmitted to Italy in the13th century and later to Britain by the way of Italy but British modified the machine for the production of cotton fabrics ), drilling techniques for oil and natural gas ( China drilled for natural gas and transferred it through pipelines for heating and lighting starting in the 4th century BC, on the other hand Europe didn’t use natural gas until the 19th century but again Britain was the first country in Europe to use natural gas in 1798). All these Chinese inventions were transmitted to Europe by direct or indirect or stimulus diffusion. Without using all these Chinese inventions, the Industrial Revolution wouldn’t have been possible. Even in agriculture, the backward Europe got modern horse collar, moldboard cast iron plow, rotary winnowing fan, MULTI -seed drill technologies and the techniques of row cultivation of crops and intense hoeing by horse-drawn hoes from China( with the exception of the horse collar which Europe adopted in the 8th century, the rest of the Chinese agricultural technologies were adopted by Europe only in the 18th century). This really shows how backward Europe was at the time. By adopting all these Chinese technologies, Britain could bring about an agricultural revolution in the 18th century These are just some of the ground- breaking Chinese inventions and ideas that were transmitted to Europe before the Industrial Revolution. Even SCIENCE was born in the 11th century in the Islamic civilization with the birth of the EXPERIMENTAL SCIENTIFIC METHOD ( all ancient civilizations were pre-scientific) The backwards Europeans translated a very large amount of Islamic scientific writings into Latin and extensively studied them thus bringing SCIENCE to Europe. Specially Alhazen’s masterpiece, BOOK OF OPTICS which is recognized as the first scientific treatise in the world by many scholars had profound effects on many European scientists. Without the influence of the Islamic science, there would have been no Scientific Revolution in the 17th century or modern science in the 18th and 19th centuries in Europe. The relatively primitive Europeans learned not only science but also advanced math from the Islamic civilization in the Middle Ages. Also the Islamic architecture and literature greatly influenced Europe. As you can see Europe was basically copying and adaptive culture before the Industrial Revolution.

  48. m___ says:
    @FKA Max

    Your comment

    This is as close as we got over the last three months to seeing the needed mindset to make public communication (on unz.com) associative and of quality! Opening a thread to analyze the article of Welton in depth would be appropriate now, and the pages would steer away of the author – commenter gap, of author – commenter being on different intellectual levels, the bread-writing incentive diminished. Correct mistakes, rewrite, bring in meaningful variables, additional evidence, it all can be done “on-line”, and give the internet quality meaning. Ultimately, who takes credit for better ideas, better theory, more insightful analysis, clearer writing is less important then authorship and ego boosting, coining, self-promoting. The “warrior gene” is indeed not very beneficial to better public understanding.

    Will get back to you concerning content. For now, could it be that the correlation between IQ and wealth – power is not so much as flawed, but simply not linear, since the association up to say 130 IQ points and relative dominance in society at large seems to break there-after?

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  49. Despite my Sinophilia, I am likewise skeptical of China’s scientific prospects. In per capita terms, Japan and South Korea have the elite science performance (as proxied by Nature Index) of Spain, while Taiwan has the performance of Italy. The Anglo/Germanics are twice as scientifically productive. Assuming no major collapse in the US, I suspect that Chinese and American scientific output will converge; China will not dominate, like it will in economics and eventually military power.

    If there is no radical technological break this century (e.g. widespread gene editing for greater IQ, or machine superintelligence), the scenario I posit is one of decreasing average IQ and increasing fertility rates: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/short-history-of-3rd-millennium/

    This will eventually bring back Malthusian conditions when the global population hits the carrying capacity of industrial civilization, and restart the engine of technological growth. But this will take centuries.

  50. Logan says:
    @Anonymous

    Thanks for posting. For at least 2000 years the Chinese were more creative than anybody else, possibly more creative than everybody else put together.

    But it appears that this long tradition of creativity more or less ended sometime around 1500, roughly when Europeans began their spectacular explosion of creativity and then expansion into the world. The drop in Chinese creativity/inventiveness was not only in relation to Europe, but apparently in relation to that of its own past. Absolute, not just relative. Never have heard a logical explanation why.

    If China was indeed more creative than Europe for 2000 years and then stopped being so, which seems to be the case, it seems unlikely the explanation is genetic or biological.

    BTW, the author of the quote is inaccurate about the rise of the knight occurring only because of the Chinese-invented stirrup. Heavy cavalry, with both horse and rider armored, charging with the lance as the primary weapon, were around long before the stirrup. Which, admittedly, probably made heavy cavalry a good deal more effective.

    Should also note that while China invented many of these things, it often did not exploit them nearly as well as others.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  51. Anonymous[632] • Disclaimer says:

    Who wants to save civilization anyway? Civilization is the problem.

  52. m___ says:
    @Jim

    It would be desirable to have more representative data on the IQ of the Chinese population.

    Large samples, the biology of genetics, in a “few” years, will be indeed the more conclusive argument.

  53. Bucky says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    I’m not aware of any descendants from the 19th century Chinese migrants. As they were mainly men, most who stayed led to lonely deaths. I suppose a few did marry white women, But decades afterwards of intermarriage would make the Chinese minuscule.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  54. Tony Borg says:

    A five thousand year old culture with 1.4 billion people.

    Don’t be so hasty.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  55. @Anon

    My Lord you are a dumb Gen Y troll.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Truth
  56. @Bucky

    Enough of them did to have a Chinatown in San Francisco by Mark Twain’s era.

  57. Sam F2 says:

    The writer has not studied IQ vs. intelligence.
    It is not passed on genetically; some results from family learning.
    He should not be writing on this subject.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  58. AaronB says:

    In many ways China has all the pathologies of the West, just on lag time.

    As for creativity, the highly collectivist Jews who occupied an ecological niche that highly favored collectivism and ethnocentrism if anyone did, were quite creative, and Europeans were more creative the more collectivist their cultures were – the rise of individualism coincided with increasingly less creativity.

    Creativity itself is highly collectivist and conformist – only societies that value it highly produce creative people – i.e, societies that value above all else discovering some new aspect of the physical world to control and manipulate – and creative people draw from and rely upon the work of many people before them.

    Only European society, and to some extent Jews who lived in these societies, had that level of materialism.

    No Asian country can match the materialism of the modern West. This may change.

    • Replies: @tamo
  59. Yee says:

    Jeff Stryker,

    I think the wave after 1965 were still poor peasants who were relatives or married to the earlier migrants. Because China and US didn’t have foreign relation until 1979, so only families or relatives were able to immigrate in the 60s. Those who went from Taiwan to US might have been different, I don’t know. But Taiwan was also quite poor in the 60s, its economy really started to take off in mid 70s to 80s under Chang’s son.

    The better educated group from mainland started in the 80s or 90s since universities in China didn’t go back to normal until 1978. The richer immigrants must be in the new millennium.

    Anyway, there’s no denying that lots of the top talent of China have been going to the US. Top universities Tsinghua and Peking students are joked to be future Americans.

    In a bizarre way, it’s fortunate for China that this lot have been placed under Indians in the US, considering it’s mostly the second rate talent that are building China.

  60. This article indicates that Chinese female hypergamy is asserting itself with the greater prosperity and access to birth control in very similar ways that it did in the west.

  61. Genius can be ‘produced’ artificially, the problem is how to do it and that it’s expected a strong correlation with broader spectrum of mental disorders, if a disorder must be necessary to produce the genius, if the genius itself IS a disorder, a extreme phenotypical expression, just like gigantism, a syndrome. but in not absolute maladapted expression.

    Seems majority of ”intelligence-researchers” only know to talk about IQ. Creativity, that is fundamentally important, is seeing as less than what IQ measure/compare.

    Another huge problem our brave eugenists barrely discuss and even tend to be antagonistic is about morality issues, and yes, majority of them because their conservative approach will defend a disgusting and contradictory combination between a deffective heuristics [religion] a eugenics.

    Before to think and even to engage in the ”fabrication” of human beings, think about what most of us no have, real rationality.

  62. A repetition of same thing since i was in hbd sphere, absolutely nothing creative in this text, period.

    Another possible question about genius is that, because its rarity, the current demographic transition may not be good for its sporadic individual manifestations, at least in natural selective circunstances.

  63. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Another German Reader

    “devastating civil war ” LOL

    Are you referring to the French colonization followed by the US attempts at colonization using /agent Orange/carpet bombing/village massacres/napalm etc.

    sort of like the Syrian “civil” war

    • Replies: @Another German Reader
  64. @Sam F2

    Imprinted genes theory look very good to explain genetic transmission. There are parents who have children which basically inherited the whole phenotype of one them. I have a adopted mulato cousin woman who had a girl with a white guy and her daughter basically is the face, the body and the personality of him. So, the idea that it’s always a genetic COMBINATION seems possibly wrong because what happen is the ”fight” between maternal and parental genes and sometimes one of them absolutely obliterate the other.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  65. jgarbo says:
    @Gordo

    Your comment is worse than useless. It betrays you stupidity. Try again and contribute something.

  66. Phille says:
    @Hbd investor

    Then why does Japan with a much higher IQ, bigger population and higher r&d investment lag behind the Western European countries when it comes to scientific output and GDP?

    • Replies: @Hbd investor
  67. jgarbo says:
    @Per/Norway

    Never the “one child” rule. Engineering Prof in Guangzhou, old friend, explained he could have as many children as he liked BUT the govt would only pay – everything – for the first. After that he would paying full price for subsequent children. He and his wife took the one child route, a charming, bright son. There was never a “One child” – abort the next – policy. More Western propaganda?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  68. jgarbo says:
    @attilathehen

    Lived and worked in Japan for three years, spoke Japanese daily. Democracy does not exist in Japan, as it does not exist in US. It’s a ritual. Visit China often with (Chinese) father-in-law. No “democracy” but everyone doing what they like, business, work,study, supported by “authoritarian” govt to improve the whole country. As for the US, Honduras is its future. Take a trip, bring a gun.

    • Replies: @Bucky
    , @Daniel Chieh
  69. Logan says:
    @Anonymous

    Since just about everything we see around us in the modern world was invented/created by white people, I will assume you are using some non-standard definition of the word.

    So give us your definition and then we can perhaps discuss which groups excel in it.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  70. Phille says:
    @Hbd investor

    “Yet they dominate Europeans in the Pisa which was my entire point”

    But they actually don’t. If you look at the native’s scores Germany is basically on Japan’s level and Switzerland on Korea’s. It is only third world immigration that is bringing the European scores down. And I’m not even sure that the “natives” don’t contain kids with an immigration background two generations back.

  71. @Logan

    It was created by ”white” INDIVIDUALS and not PEOPLE, and not YOU. It’s a cultural appropriation via colectivization of individual achievements.

    If ”high IQ” women stop to have kids, ”high IQ” phenotypes will be umbalancedly expressed by ”masculine” genes or transmissible by males. It seems will recreate a patriarchism.. poor stupid feminists..

    • Replies: @Logan
  72. Escher says:
    @attilathehen

    And on what basis do you say that Vietnam has peaked?

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  73. Escher says:
    @Anonymous

    The works of Socrates and Plato were also ghost written by a Chinese philosopher.

  74. Bucky says:
    @jgarbo

    Lol very much yes.

    This is why it is so folly to divide the world into good democracies and evil autocracies. Who in the world is going to fight for, as Obi-Wan Kenobi yelled before chopping off the legs of a teenager, democracy?

  75. Joe Wong says:
    @Read David Brock's Memo

    It is puzzling why the West insists that Chinese is smarter and with higher IQ, then they try very hard to disprove what they created and said themselves. Is it an expression of inferiority complex or an anxiety of the chicken coming home to roost for what they have done to the world in the past?

  76. Joe Wong says:
    @Anon

    The Chinese are eating more western diet now, unfortunately they are getting a lot of Western health problems like obesity and diabetes before raising their IQ.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  77. Who cares what the IQ sect believes? Their religion is no less ridiculous than the Mormon faith.

    The collective suicide of the so-called West appears irreversible. So, if the humanity survives (i.e., if the Empire in its death throes does not start WWIII), the civilization torch-bearers would be either East Asians (including China), or Eastern Europeans (including Russia), or Latin Americans (including … gasp… Mexico). Most likely all of the above. Anyway, as the saying goes, “we can predict everything, except the future”.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @Eric Novak
  78. @Santoculto

    Congrats! You reinvented the wheel. Old man Mendel knew ~150 years ago that genes can be dominant or recessive. Take an introductory biology course and then come back.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  79. @Tony Borg

    When Zhou Enlai was asked in the late 20th century what he thinks about the French revolution, he replied: “it’s too early to judge”.

    • Replies: @Anon
  80. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    And what does it say about your narcissism that you haven’t noticed the Anon [257] is no gen Y commenter? Or is it your weird sense of humour?

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  81. @AnonFromTN

    LATIN AMERICA

    Sure, they have a great track record there.

    EASTERN EUROPE

    I doubt this.

    EAST ASIA

    More probable.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  82. @Logan

    I think you may be perpetuating the error in the article of not allowing enough for the enormous number of sharp brains still to be educated and exploited in China together with a discernible move away from social pressures against creativity – and not just following one’s elders.

    • Replies: @Logan
  83. @attilathehen

    expelling Jews:

    Forget about it! Adolf gave them an unassailable armour.

    expelling Black:

    Children of Black US GIs and German women – not possible as they are citizen from the start.

    SS-African could be much better regulated – especially the recent illegal arrivals from Med.

    SS-Africans, who came as diplomat/businessmen/college-students are not troublemakers.

    expelling Muslims:

    The former guest-workers and their (grand)children are partially integrated, if their background was from urban regions of home country.

    The ones from the rural regions of Anatolia & MENA are not integrated, but a high portion has received citizenship in 1980s/1990s. Only a dictatorship could deport them.

    The recent arrivals from the Med will probably deported, when the Merkel era ends in 2021.

    expelling other migrants:

    There are migrants from Vietnam, the Caucasus, former Yugoslavia and Latin-America. Most are relatively integrated and/or are in low numbers and mostly keep their heads down. Troublesome migrants from these groups are already being deported.

    In the end: Germany/W-Europe will be diverse even if stop all migration right away. The trouble are jihadists with citizenship and SS-Africa’s surplus sons in the next century.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  84. @AnonFromTN

    Or my english is going worse or it’s your reading/interpretation issues…

    How explain a always- genetic combination scenario when we have a son or a daughter who simply look like a copy of only-one of their progenitors…

    A ”one” recessive gene… i’m talking about situations where entire phenotype is supressed by other… can understand this*

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  85. @Jeff Stryker

    I suggest you visit Mexico and see for yourself just how wrong all US myths about it are. Mexico City is safer than most US cities, they have more book stores in downtown Mexico City than we have in all of the US, college-educated Mexicans are better informed about the world than Americans with PhD, etc. I don’t know about you, but I was surprised, even though I did not expect to hear anything true from American MSM.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @Truth
    , @Amen
  86. @Anon

    That’s one of the interpretations. Not necessarily the truest one.

  87. @The Scalpel

    Like I said before: Go visit Vietnam and feel/witness the dynamic atmospshere! Talk to foreign businessmen and ask their opinion on VN’s prospects!

    Within MNCs many people are already saying that Vietnam is the Last Mohican of this century. The last country to become a trully industrial society.

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
  88. Anonymous[266] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Despite my Sinophilia, I am likewise skeptical of China’s scientific prospects. In per capita terms, Japan and South Korea have the elite science performance (as proxied by Nature Index) of Spain, while Taiwan has the performance of Italy. The Anglo/Germanics are twice as scientifically productive. Assuming no major collapse in the US, I suspect that Chinese and American scientific output will converge; China will not dominate, like it will in economics and eventually military power.

    There is a lag between scientific performance and recognition. And the demographic change in the Anglo/Germanic world is increasing at an increasing rate. A few months ago I went to the graduation of the best STEM school in the U.S. It was startling how while 90% of the faculty present was white male (American & European) between the ages of ~40 to ~75, the BS/MS/PhD students were about 90% Chinese or Chinese-American (though some could’ve been Korean with Chinese-sounding names, e.g., Sung, Chang, etc.).

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  89. The cultural hypothesis make little sense, europeans has been sharply collective since most part of its history. Because white europeans have invaded another places via globalization or invented the industrialization it’s doesn’t mean they are CONSIDERABLY more individualistic..

    Cultural differences between eastern and western in moral, artistic/philosophical/scientific issues throghout history has been little than supporters of this hypothesis would like. The significant and simple difference is that highly creative people have appeared more [and produced more] in Europe than in China, and specially during post-middle european age.

    If chinese elites had more of subservient geniuses to improve their kingdom/power before western domination, i doubt they would oppress them.

  90. @Anonymous

    Sure, but the Nature Index (unlike Nobel Prizes) is a current measure of high quality scientific output, i.e. published in the world’s top few dozen journals.

    • Replies: @Hbd investor
    , @Anonymous
  91. @AnonFromTN

    Why are Mestizos and Indians so poor in Mexico? Why don’t the 10% of the population that is white willing to share the pie?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  92. @jgarbo

    Democracy is a sham. The Japanese are more hypocritical about it….I mean,more polite about it :)

    The great firewall is bullshit annoyance though.

  93. Talha says:
    @Kratoklastes

    I get your analogy with the drones (and it is a good one). The one issue is that the humans with high IQ don’t seem to pass along their specific genetic material while the drones do plenty of it (as you pointed out). So while those drones (in their niche) are adapted to propagate their genes, the high IQ humans seem less adapted to. And that’s great if we simply want to keep cycling out new human beings to take their spots as high-IQ ones voluntarily vacate it.

    So I agree, it’s great for us as a species, not so great for them as individuals.

    Cognitively-elite humans will keep that niche until we develop Artificial Super-Intelligence (ASI)

    Doh! They are willingly destroying their own niche!

    Peace.

  94. @Santoculto

    Well, if a child has one Italian or Spanish and one “Scandinavian blonde” parent, chances are that the child would look exactly like the Italian or Spanish parent simply because “darker” genes are dominant. Pale skin, blue eyes, and blond hair mean lack of pigment, whereas darker skin/eyes/hair mean the presence of pigment, so that one gene from a “darker” parent dominates in the first generation. The “blonde” genes are still present and will manifest themselves if that child has children with a “blonde” partner: the ratio of darker and paler children would be 1:1.

    That’s just one example, but I guess you get the drift.

    • Replies: @Logan
    , @Santoculto
  95. @Jeff Stryker

    For the same reason the likes of Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates are reluctant to share the pie with other Americans. History shows that wealth is never shared voluntarily. The wealthy can be forced to share it by the government (progressive taxation; inheritance tax) or by the population (revolutions). The first option is generally less destructive, but not always feasible: the wealthy usually buy the government lock, stock, and barrel (like today in the US).

    • Replies: @Someone
  96. @Yee

    IQ has limited utility, so as long as it is understood as “best catch all metric” rather than some transcendent value. You wouldn’t use VO2 volume to determine the winner of every sport either, would you?

  97. Logan says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I don’t think that’s my error. I am objecting to the idea that Chinese are inherently less innovative or creative, as the article says. My objection is based on historical evidence that China was for most of its history more creative than the West.

    It also seems to me, though I’m no expert, that China suffered a sudden drop in creativity just about the same time the West took a spectacular bounce up.

  98. Logan says:
    @Santoculto

    An odd remark. Anon was, presumably, comparing the aggregate creativity of “white people” vs. other ethnic or racial groups. It’s his model, not mine.

    But we can’t even talk about it if we don’t first agree on what we mean by the term.

    I’ve seen “creativity” used to refer primarily to inventiveness related to the arts or aesthetics. Doesn’t seem right to me. I think creativity is more accurately defined as innovation of any type. Science, engineering, even politics.

    Dictionary (creative):
    adjective
    having the quality or power of creating.
    resulting from originality of thought, expression, etc.; imaginative:
    creative writing.
    originative; productive (usually followed by of).

  99. Logan says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Don’t think it works that way. We have definitive evidence from families where a Swede marries a Nigerian and they have multiple kids. The kids may look much like Mom or Dad, or just about anything in between (the norm).

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AnonFromTN
  100. jim jones says:

    The most glaring deficiency in Chinese Culture is the lack of any understanding of Biology. Traditional medicine is based on the existence of Zang-fu organs which control the flow of a mystical energy called Chi.

  101. Talha says:
    @Logan

    I agree here – genetics is weird like this – I recently saw a mixed family at the park (Black and White). They had four kids, two of them looked very white (and only looked like they had slightly darker skin than the mother) and the other two looked to be lighter-skinned Blacks. The facial structure on all of them was more Caucasian.

    I know a Polish guy that married someone from India – two of their kids look completely White (light skin, green eyes) and one daughter looks extra tanned.

    One of my own sons looks like he has absolutely no input from me and looks just as if my wife would have had a brother (I’m from Pakistani background and she is from Swedish background).

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Karl
  102. J says: • Website

    It is very difficult to say anything certain about the enormous human mass of China. Statistics are unreliable. I cannot believe that in one generation they lost 15 points IQ. If they did, it is a tragic loss of potential for humanity all.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  103. Truth says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    I think Geoffrey has had enough of you clowns questioning his street-cred.

  104. Someone says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Unfortunately there are a lot of Jeffs out there. On this site they’re just anonymous hate mongers. In real life, there are plenty of dim bulb racists and tribal puritans who are easily led to vote against their own interests by any number of Machiavelian politicians.

    Instead of rightly railing against the concentrated power of monopolies, the military and the FIRE industry, the dim bulb demographic’s ire is safely channeled towards some ethnic out-group. Kinda explains the happy marriage between Ayn Randian anarcho-capitalism and racist/ethnic purity activists.

  105. Truth says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I haven’t spent much time in Mexico, but I live in New Mexico and speak Spanish fairly well.

    A few hours watching Univision (whereat I once worked) disputes much of this…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  106. @Phille

    Many things effect GDP and gdp per capita and wages tend to decline as population increases, industries, pop culture etc….

    Countries like Qatar are wealthy and are clearly low innovation.

    So the argument that Japan is not innovative because it has low gdp holds no water

    And as for reasearch, how exactly are you measuring research?

    Is it patents? Is it research papers? Is it citation rankings?

    Does research count social science papers about the effect of racism on transgender transracial gender neutral children?

    Are fields like biology and medicine that tend to generate thousands upon thousands of research papers lumped in with physics papers?

    What about countries like the US that have papers generated by numerous non whites and non white grad students?

    Ranking a country by research papers is about serious issue because there is no way to sort by quality.

    A physics paper that solves a 50 year old physics problem that barely gets any citations because it is in a extremely difficult speciality is surely higher than the 300,000 cancer research papers produced every year each of them highly cute by the other 299,999 papers

    Of note

    Japan has the world’s highest patents per capita followed by south korea

    So useful research that ends up generating patents is led by japan

    • Replies: @Karl
  107. tamo says:
    @AaronB

    China was far more creative than Europe before the Industrial Revolution. The last 250-year European domination in technology is an aberration from long-running Chinese domination in technology and economy. By the middle of this century, China has a good chance to reclaim it’s top spot in technology again. Read my comment 49.

  108. @jim jones

    Here we call this “IQ”, a mystical thing.

  109. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    … research, led by a Japanese psychologist called Kenya Kura, which has shown that Northeast Asians are genetically less intellectually creative than Europeans. [Why do Northeast Asians Win So Few Nobel Prizes?, By Kenya Kura et al., Comprehensive Psychology, 4: 2015] Northeast Asians, compared to Europeans, have higher gene frequencies of polymorphisms which make people collectivist, socially anxious, and fearful of anything novel. .. they note that scientific innovators tend to combine very high IQ with an optimally low level of collectivism, low social anxiety and low fearfulness of the new. In other words, they have high “Openness-Intellect”, as psychologists term this trait. This psychological profile means that they can think outside the box and don’t care about the offence to vested interests which their new idea will almost certainly result in.

    I’m not sure this really makes sense. After all, when it comes to hard sciences such as biology, physics, and chemistry and MATH, it is impossible to give offense to anyone. Even in the West, those are areas least affected by PC. And in the USSR, those in hard sciences and math had total freedom. It was in the human ‘sciences’ that people had to be careful.

    So, there is little chance that East Asians will give offense to anyone in biology, chemistry, and physics. And esp math. Also, if Asians are anti-anything-novel, why do they take to new technology like crazy? South Korea was ahead of the game in providing fast internet to everyone. Japanese love robots and video games and anything mecha. And Chinese sure went crazy in attacking everything old and embracing everything radical during the Mao yrs. And since the rise of market-economics, the Chinese have been willing to do ANYTHING to get ahead and make money. They pay no heed to tradition.

    And in 19th century Europe, Germany was more autocratic than certain other European nations, but it was a great center of science and modern learning. And the Anglo formula was never just individualism and freedom. It was a combination of individualism and extreme-mindfulness of what peers thought. It was about conforming to the high standards of British intellectual institutions. So, the issue isn’t always individualism vs conformism but conformism vs conformism. It depends on what you conform to. If you are mindful about conforming to repressive dogma(like Marxist theology or Confucian texts), then you’ll be trapped. But if you’re mindful about conforming to high standards of intellectual inquiry(empiricism and reason), then you can achieve much. So, people like Darwin weren’t maverick rebels who went against the grain. If anything, they were steeped in British institutional norms and did serious work to conform to those intellectual standards.

    Still, Asian personality may have a repressive effect on full creativity and individuality. Maybe, there are fewer variations of personality in East Asia, or there are only starkly different ones whereas the West has subtle gradations of various kinds of personalities. Perhaps, nuances in personality make for more creativity. Also, it could be hormonal. Maybe Asians have lower levels of hormones and this lends less fuel to passion and drive. Maybe Asian emotions are more cold-blooded than warm-blooded. It’s like cold-blooded animals need the heat from outside sources. In contrast, warm-blooded animals generate heat from the inside. Maybe Asian intelligence tends to be less stellar because the heat to drive the passion has to come from the outside.

    There is also the issue of respect for older people. This is a good thing socially but in not so much in academics. If there’s a very bright Japanese guy who can do great work, he may suppress his own ideas out of deference to older academics who are past their prime.

    Another problem is the status-madness of Asian academic culture. Because so much emphasis is placed on the prestige of going to a good school, most students expend most of their energies on studying for tests to enter good schools. But instead of seeing the college experience as the prime time to do serious work, Asian students began to grow lax just then. They figure, “I made it to a top college, so I’m going to take it easy.” So, colleges are treated as vacations in Asia. They think the real work comes in high school and after college. College is respite between the two.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
    , @Amen
  110. @J

    They kill 200 million of potential humans since one child control. I thought since the fact we have a single country with near 1,5 billion is already a treat for all of us, ecologically speaking.

    (200 million or more)
    (killed).

  111. @AnonFromTN

    Please, I wrote thongs I would like this things be used in this debate. I know, superficially, about this subject, recessive and dominant, but I’m talking about, again, when a kid push considerably one of its parents, as if the kid was a copy of him/her. A entire phenotype (all traits) being dominant of one of parents. Yes, I know what I said here is not insightful, just a mere observation…

    But thank you for your gratuitous lesson of genetics!! It’s hard to find kind people these days!! :)

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  112. bucky says:

    Actually, the problem with this article is that it is too centric on the nation-state.

    Technically, China is a nation-state on the same level as Sweden is a nation-state.

    In reality, China is more akin to continental Europe. There is a reason why they use the term, “civilizational state”.

    And as well, the map does not include Taiwan, which is largely populated by Han Chinese.

    The Alt-Right tends to make the argument that they want to make the United States like Israel. An ethnostate. But Israel is the size of New Jersey. Making the United States an ethnostate would be more like making all of the Middle East or all of Europe on big ethnostate. If you took all of China, ignored all of the crappy areas to the west, you get a highly productive population akin to Japan in a geographic region that is similar in size to Japan itself. And without an underclass of minorities causing crime like you have in Western countries.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  113. @Truth

    If you judge any nation by their TV, you’d conclude that every country on Earth is populated by hopeless morons. Besides, Univision is Tex-Mex.

    • Replies: @Truth
  114. @Anatoly Karlin

    The nature index still has flaws, they look only at papers written in english and they give more points to citations from other countries

    In addition they lump in cancer research and biology journals with journals containing real science

    Clearly this would result a bias against non english speaking countries and also a bias against highly specialized and more difficult research.

    A super string paper could be revolutionary yet barely cited due to the low number of super string specialists yet get less citations than cancer paper that gets cited thousands of times due to the vast number of cancer researchers and all the funding that cancer research gets

  115. @bucky

    One of the sanest replies to the thread. There is pretty significant genetic variation within China itself.

  116. @Anon

    Human sciences are the basis of human condition, so called self awareness. Without this and humans are just like giant weird ants. It’s about critical thinking and not exactly what we have today. Human science is: Why study science? It’s science before science. Why be ethical? It’s morality too. It’s not the most difficult stuff human mind can reach but it’s the most basic, and exactly because the bankruptcy of human science fundamentally about philosophy, and not just since today (don’t forget when politically correct was everything about religion), western civilization is being imploded.

  117. @Another German Reader

    You’re a cuck.

    The Hitler card is gone. It’s the Caucasian RCC/Zioevangizer male who is the cause of our problems.

    Many blacks in Germany leave and come to the USA. They know they don’t belong.

    Guest worker in Germany can cover Spaniards, Portuguese and Turks. The Turks will have to go.

    A lot of diversity can be reversed.

    Of course, you will not help. You’re too busy worrying about the shithole Vietnam.

  118. Truth says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Univision, (extremely short version here) was started by a bunch of upper-middle class Cubans to appeal to the Mexican Hoi polloi. And they have have done a very good job, as per ratings. Their chief-rival, Telemundo is a Puerto-Rican outfit that evolved the same way; and is even lower on the intellect scale if this is possible.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  119. @Santoculto

    AnonFromTN is an actual scientist and this is his specialization. He could probably explain the details of dominance through expressed alleles via protein activation/or lack of there of. He spared you.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  120. Truth says:
    @attilathehen

    Many blacks in Germany leave and come to the USA. They know they don’t belong.

    Listen to Tillie and learn there, Schmidt; she knows her stuff.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  121. @Logan

    The kids cannot look white unless the Nigerian in question had some white genes. I know that many people who call themselves “blacks” in the US have a significant admixture of European genes (apparently, slave owners liked black women). The cross with a Scandinavian blond is like “analytical backcrossing” in genetics: if you cross someone with a partner with all recessives, you can determine the genetic makeup of that individual by the frequency of different traits in children.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Truth
  122. @AnonFromTN

    Haploinsufficiency can cause heterozygous expression, no?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  123. FKA Max says: • Website
    @m___

    The Art of Productive Laziness

    Progress isn’t made by early risers. It’s made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.’ Robert Heinlein (1907 – 1988)
    [...]
    This theory has existed for many years and applied in a number of interesting ways. One of the most famous of these was in the Prussian Army.
    Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke (1800 – 1891) was a German Generalfeldmarschall. The chief of staff of the Prussian Army for thirty years, he is widely regarded as one of the great strategists of the latter half of the 1800s, and the creator of a new, more modern method, of directing armies in the field.
    Moltke had a particular insight to and approach to categorising his officer corps, something which lives on to this day within many armed forces, and something which can apply to all forms of leadership.- https://pmiwdc.org/article/peter-taylor/art-productive-laziness Archived link: http://archive.is/aFosN

    There are some other additional aspects that don’t often get mentioned in race realist circles regarding the creativity and productivity (both of which presumably require above-average intelligence) gap between Europeans (particularly historically Protestant European countries and the Anglosphere) and Northeast Asians. I recently commented on this:

    Mr. Sailer this chart might be of interest to you, from the Economist. 6.7%, in 2013, of household spending in South Korea went towards education

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-flynn-effect-in-china/#comment-2478207

    Europeans are also extremely productive per hours worked. South Koreans, for example, work 800 hours more per year than Germans

    https://www.unz.com/article/beijings-bid-for-global-power-in-the-age-of-trump/#comment-2478701

    The Chinese work about as much as the South Koreans [...] The average Chinese worker works between 2,000-2,200 hours every year in China, [...] “It may have been one of the secrets that help created the ‘China miracle’ but it has created a lot of problems,” Mr. Lai said, citing the frequency of workplace accidents, which tend to happen when workers are tired. “It is not sustainable.”

    https://www.unz.com/article/beijings-bid-for-global-power-in-the-age-of-trump/#comment-2479487

    Race realists often associate myopia with genetic intelligence and since Northeast Asia has experienced an unprecedented myopia boom over the last decades and IQ test scores have risen in tandem, they take that as proof that Northeast Asians are of superior intelligence and genetic stock, but research has shown that myopia is not an indicator of intelligence but rather effort/ambition:

    The reason East Asians do so well on IQ tests and in intelligence competitions, etc., is the same reason they have high rates of myopia, they spend a lot of time indoors studying from a young age on:

    East Asia has been gripped by an unprecedented rise in myopia, also known as short-sightedness. Sixty years ago, 10–20% of the Chinese population was short-sighted. Today, up to 90% of teenagers and young adults are. In Seoul, a whopping 96.5% of 19-year-old men are short-sighted.[]
    [...]
    To put it crudely, myopia is not the ophthalmic sign of intelligence, rather it marks the striver”, says Alireza Mirshahi.

    https://www.unz.com/article/americas-cultural-revolution-the-obsession-with-self-esteem/#comment-2295700 and https://www.unz.com/jthompson/boost-your-iq/#comment-2078174

    A lot of recent Northeast Asian economic, IQ test, etc. outperformance is simply due to hard work and effort, and not genetic intelligence, etc. as many “race realists” like to claim.

    The World’s Most Productive People

    Source: https://www.unz.com/article/beijings-bid-for-global-power-in-the-age-of-trump/#comment-2478701 and https://web.archive.org/web/20180828192612/https://conorneill.com/2018/01/24/the-worlds-most-productive-people/

    • Replies: @m___
  124. @Daniel Chieh

    Yes, but in most cases we are fine with just one allele working. Swedish blonds don’t have any pigment in their skin (humans have 6 or 8 genes that determine skin color, both alleles are active, so we have 13 or 17 gradations of that), their eyes (the difference between blue, gray, and green is determined by the structure of the iris w/o pigment; the difference between all hues of brown and black eyes is determined by iris structure with pigment), and hair (we have several genes for the production of pigment in the hair, so we can have different hair colors, depending how many you have, like skin). These genes yield obvious results, most are not as obvious, so that’s why I used color as an example.

  125. @Truth

    Are they intellectually inferior to the American TV? That would be quite an achievement.

    • Replies: @Truth
  126. Truth says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The kids cannot look white unless the Nigerian in question had some white genes.

    Wey’ll….

    //www.cbsnews.com/news/white-baby-shocks-black-parents-medically-possible/

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  127. @jim jones

    But despite that, their traditional medical approach did take them pretty far. A model can be wrong in its explanations yet still yield useful practical results.

  128. tamo says:

    America is the granddaddy of industrial espionage and counterfeiting. When America was a developing country in the 19th and early 20th centuries, An America that lacked both creativity and originality, was the biggest thieving- copycat in the world. Consequently, the U.S. became the counterfeit capital of the world. America copied other countries’ inventions, ideas without regard to patents, copyright, trademarks. Even the U.S. Treasury Department under Alexander Hamilton set up a bounty system for rewarding anybody for stealing and bringing foreign technologies to America. As a matter of fact, the 19th century American textile industry was basically based on stolen British technologies. Also Americans were infamous for illegally copying Charles Dickens’ novels or manufacturing inferior hats in New York and then slapping made-in Paris labels on them and had a very bad reputation for making unsafe and gross food products (For example, American meat packers used extremely harmful TB -infected pork to make sausages).
    You can find all this information and more by reading Aug 26, 2007 Boston Globe article named A NATION OF OUTLAWS A CENTURY AGO, THAT WASN’T CHINA—– IT WAS US and also a Dec 5, 2012 Foreign Policy article titled WE WERE PIRATES, TOO. Every developed country went through copying stage before it became innovative. Germans copied from British. Americans stole and copied from Europe (Even in the early 20th century, American car makers were busy reverse-engineering more advanced European cars) and Japan stole and copied from both Europe and America. Also before the Industrial Revolution the technologically backward Europeans directly or indirectly copied a lot of things from China and Islamic civilization.

    Reply 5 3

  129. @attilathehen

    Is there Asian poontang in your life? No way I would want to be a second tier Asian. Vietnam has hit its peak.

    There’s a real slant to most of these comments isn’t there? This should be nipped in the bud before the whole thing slopes downward. Just zip it I say. Quit dragon down the level of discourse and make it more celestial.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  130. @Truth

    Two people with dominant phenotype (black) can have a child with recessive phenotype (white), if both are heterozygotes. The same is true for two brown-eyed people: they can have a blue-eyed child, if they are heterozygotes. However, two blue-eyed people cannot possibly have a brown-eyed child (the participation of the third person in this case is 100% assured).

    • Replies: @Eric Novak
    , @Jeff Stryker
  131. @Hbd investor

    The entire modern world was created by Europeans. What wealth did Issac Newton or Gauss or Tesla need for their genius? None.

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @Hbd investor
  132. @Daniel Chieh

    I don’t think so… A lot of experts are not absolutely understandable of their pet-knowledge…

    Maybe he don’t understand my english, he even answer the points i put, he just take the parts he believe understood and use it to teach me the basics of genetics.

    Interestingly you have some interest on me, the reciprocal is impossible. I just remember you repeating the same stupid things since, 8 years ago** Just repeating your insecurities and supposed supremacy of ”your” people…

    Do yu can detect where he refute or even talk about my points*

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  133. FKA Max says: • Website
    @tamo

    The U.S. and the Soviets benefited greatly post-WW 2 from Operation Paperclip and Operation Osoaviakhim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim , respectively:

    Throughout its operations to 1990, Operation Paperclip imported 1,600 men, as part of the intellectual reparations owed to the United States and the UK, some $10 billion in patents and industrial processes.[20][24:Naimark. 206 (Naimark cites Gimbel, John Science Technology and Reparations: Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany) The $10 billion compare to the 1948 US GDP $258 billion, and to the total Marshall plan (1948–52) expenditure of $13 billion, of which Germany received $1.4 billion (partly as loans).]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip#Scientists

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/nyt-complains-trump-doesnt-respect-the-narrative-under-his-presidency-the-american-dream-would-be-primarily-reserved-for-americans/#comment-1502881

    $10 billion in 1948 was about 4% of US GDP, which would be about $800 billion in today’s money as a percentage of the current U.S. GDP of about $ 20 trillion.

    Science, Technology, and Reparations.
    Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany.
    John Gimbel. Stanford University Press

    Source: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/248/4960/1241.1

  134. @AnonFromTN

    You’ve made no case against the strong predictive power of IQ as measured by many tests, including SAT/ACT tests in the US.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Daniel Chieh
  135. @AnonFromTN

    Two Africans with no European ancestors can produce a white child. You are a troll.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @AnonFromTN
  136. @Santoculto

    I am glad you enjoy the “me” in your fantasy world. I didn’t even post here prior to 2016 and your understanding of genetics is evidently as sound as your memory.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  137. @tamo

    Americans are Germans and British. They steal ideas from each other in the same way Germans in Germany steal from other Germans.

    • Replies: @tamo
    , @FKA Max
  138. @Achmed E. Newman

    [Godfree Roberts is] nothing but Pro-Mao, pro-Commie, and pro-China…

    He may be God-free, but he’s certainly not god-free.

  139. Truth says:
    @Eric Novak

    They needed some wealth, or they would have been working as serfs; or in a factory.

    “Hey, would somebody tell Newton to shut the fuck up and run that plow ox through the potato field…”

  140. Nawyr says:
    @Jim

    Basic population similarity isn’t an indicator of shared intelligence. The genes coding for intelligence are relatively few and far inbetween — a population can be genetically close to another (autosomally) and still be far more intelligent.

  141. @Eric Novak

    Two people with dominant phenotype (black) can have a child with recessive phenotype (white), if both are heterozygotes.

  142. @Eric Novak

    Two self-claimed Africans with European genes can produce a white child. Without being heterozygotes they can’t. Didn’t I explain it clearly enough?

  143. Amen says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Mexican poets, scientists and philosophers are world renowned. Their scientific/engineering/medical advancements and contributions to the modern world are on par with those from Wakanda.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  144. @Eric Novak

    Tests predict the results of other tests. Key point is, do the results of any test reflect the intelligence of a person? To the best of my knowledge, the answer is a resounding “no”.

    • Replies: @Eric Novak
  145. I wonder what percentage of the people who subscribe to all the Chinese lack creativity and China’s system cannot be innovative talk is actually in serious STEM. It’s more of a popular perception as far as I can tell, and often, what the legitimate experts know of is quite different from what’s sold to the general public. Chinese mostly ignore this shit, though surely, it does do some reputation damage that is increasingly being countered.

    It’s long occurred to me that in objective capability and competence, Chinese are actually pretty good, though of course there is still room for improvement. It’s marketing that China is much more deficient in due to cultural differences and partial isolation from the mainstream. An interesting analogy I thought of is that China is like a powerful self-funded entrepreneur in defiance of the VC system, whose role is taken by America, which means China does not get substantial marketing and connection benefits from being VC-funded, making recognition much more of an uphill battle. The upside is full ownership and control, and the possibility of eventually displacing the VC structure.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  146. @Eric Novak

    IQ has strong links to working memory, but working memory isn’t the final metric of all intellectual function. There’s actually pretty decent evidence that weakness in some parts of the brain improve creativity, for example, which is important for say, artistic creation. Executive function has a weak correlation as well.

    It’s fine for a casual measure but I do understand from a scientist’s perspective that it’s really not granular enough. It’s like measuring beats per second and using it as universal measure of health. Yes, athletes have lower heartbeats per second, usually. But weightlifting might have nothing to do with it.

  147. tamo says:
    @Eric Novak

    But before the Industrial Revolution, Europeans copied a lot of CHINESE INVENTIONS without which the SPREAD of European Renaissance, the European gunpowder-based weapons revolution, the
    European voyages of discovery, the Industrial Revolution in Europe would have been impossible. Read my comment #49.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  148. Amen says:
    @Anon

    Another problem is the status-madness of Asian academic culture. Because so much emphasis is placed on the prestige of going to a good school, most students expend most of their energies on studying for tests to enter good schools.

    That pretty much describes most top students in America today, regardless of ethnicity. The chase for prestige has destroyed real learning in our schools. Our smartest kids no longer learn for the sake of learning, they learn only to excel in exams, while running themselves ragged participating in extracurricular activities they have little real interest in just so they could get into a prestigious college, then graduate and start a lucrative career by tapping into the alumni network. Holistic admission and the chase for prestige are destroying real learning, innovation and creativity in America.

    Meanwhile, if you are a CEO/politician wannabe, startup founder, doctor, scientist, mathematician or in any field in the humanities and want to be taken seriously in your field, you pretty much have to graduate from one of these elite schools to be taken seriously, because their graduates have formed a country club and only prop up those who went to the same schools.

    The Traitorous Eight plays a big role in taking America down this rabbit hole. It’s a system of privilege further perpetuating privilege.

  149. Tsigon says:

    Here’s an article based on a study out of China exploring the effects of pollution on intelligence. Curious to know your thoughts: https://futurism.com/air-pollution-intelligence/

  150. @Amen

    Here you are on a very shaky ground. The nation where Warhol is considered a painter and Copland and Gershwin are believed to be composers has serious issues with artistic creativity. You don’t want to throw stones when you live in a glass house.

  151. @Daniel Chieh

    Do YU can show some accurate examples about my ”fantasy world”**

    Yu hate me, i simply don’t care if you exist or not… some differences here chinkwinky..

    Are you creative in some way*

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Talha
  152. @Santoculto

    People have the most interesting pathologies these days.

  153. Talha says:
    @Santoculto

    Are you sober – I mean this as a serious question?

    If not, please avoid posting when inebriated, we’ll still be here after a few hours when the effects have worn off.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  154. Bucky says:

    Intelligence is kind of an artificial measure. I’m sure that Kanye is a creative genius in some way. But can Kanye build a building that won’t fall down?

    It isn’t really intelligence in making unusual connections. Intelligence like that is how we get garbage like “63 genders,” or rap music.

    It is cultural discipline which explains why Chinese can accomplish stuff. They keep at it, they don’t get distracted, they don’t complain, they don’t squabble needlessly. This trait also has its problems. It is disruption of the status quo coming from complaint and squabble which is how new systems are come to.

    And that makes outside observers think that Orientals are uncreative.

    But what they miss is how if they were more creative they wouldn’t be able to build anything in the first place. Creativity is how the Chinese got Mao’s “Great Leap Forward.” It is how we get terms like “cisgender.” Like all things, creativity is a double-edged sword.

    • Agree: utu
  155. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Eric Novak

    There almost as many ethnic Germans in the U.S. as there are in Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans and German Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Americans are still the U.S.’s largest ethnic group.

    26 Maps That Show How Ethnic Groups Are Divided Across America

    https://www.businessinsider.com/maps-of-ancestry-groups-in-america-2013-9

  156. Jake says:

    The Chinese have NEVER developed or run a civilization truly worth having. The Chinese always move toward a system in maybe 30%, often no more than 20%, of the population owns and controls at least 80% of the national wealth, and the society necessarily stagnates into a permanent hellhole save for the super rich.

    Japan’s history is almost as bad, as is Korea’s.

    Civilization worth having is only built upon European values and cultural identities. I submit that there will be no saving of civilization, nor any rebuilding after a major collapse, unless whites end their rebellion against Christendom. Either there is rebuilding and maintaining Western Christian Civilization, or there is decay into utter barbarity.

    • Replies: @Bucky
    , @tamo
    , @Bliss
  157. @Joe Wong

    Very, true, Joe. Even just lots of white rice is bad, as it has a higher glycemic index than even potatoes. The incidence of diabetes in China has gone way up, as you say.

    I no longer dub you “Joe Wrong”. (It’s been a while, Joe, and I can’t remember what that was even about – ~ year ago or so.)

  158. @jgarbo

    There was never a “One child” – abort the next – policy. More Western propaganda?

    This is true as it stands, JGarbo, there was no government abortion policy that I’ve heard about. I also know someone whose cousins had a 2nd child, and the girl could not be registered for school (goes along with the theory of why # of girls may be “catching up”), and the 2 parents were fired from their workplace.

    However, that doesn’t mean that lots of Chinese Moms didn’t have abortions when they found out a girl was on the way. In fact, there was government policy enacted within a decade ago that forbid divulgence of the sex of a fetus to the parents for this reason. You’ve got to understand that 90% of Chinese were very poor up until 15 – 20 years back, and there are still hundreds of millionns of very poor Chinese people. They almost all still want a boy for taking care of the parents during old age, and they may not have the money to support more than one. Unlike American ghetto dwellers, even the very poor over there are responsible (that’s a topic for another discussion).

    Maybe you didn’t read the “propaganda” thoroughly, but your engineering prof. sounds on the level.

    • Replies: @Truth
  159. Bucky says:
    @Jake

    Oh come on. European feudalism was similar if not worse concentration of wealth. And today in America the top 10% have like half the national wealth.

  160. @tamo

    LOEL – yes, even Louder than Mike-at-Mike-dot-Mike! To pick rough numbers, 1750 to 1915 in America had to be the best time and place ever in history to be an inventor. Man, I’d have loved to have had the money just for tools, including some metal-working stuff, (maybe some glass-blowing equipment) and basic materials that were available, and a small lab! (A saloon nearby with bar-girls would have, of course, been nice too. Oh, and to live in a town with a sheriff that can shoot. OK, OK, I try not to get all my history from the movies like certain, ahem, commenters here. ;-}

    Somewhat OT, but it is about China: It’s not all genetics/HBD, people. America is, as we all know, except Godfree Roberts, not anything like the free, libertarian society it used to be (understand, Roberts?). What I’ve been encouraged about regarding China has been their nearly-free-market healthcare system. It’s not that they have the medical science up to Western levels completely. It’s the way things run. Freedom works wonders! Personal experience in the Chinese free-market healtcare system, and Part 2, Part 3 and a brief postscript.

  161. anonymous[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    In per capita terms, Japan and South Korea have the elite science performance (as proxied by Nature Index) of Spain, while Taiwan has the performance of Italy.

    Quite surprised Spain is only 1/2 of Germany per capita. Would have expected it to be lower.

  162. @Talha

    Any question is serious tralha…

  163. Bill P says:

    All I have to see to know these stats are bogus is the map showing Sichuan with a higher IQ than Guangdong.

    Chinese statistics are notoriously unreliable, so I don’t think anyone ought to put much faith in these numbers. They also deliberately fudge the numbers by, for example, not counting migrant workers and their children in stats for places like Shanghai and Beijing. This despite the fact that births to migrants are likely the majority of all births in these places. Migrant workers’ children are typically banned from attending official schools, so they obviously won’t be included in test results.

    Chinese are smart, but there are reasons to doubt this will translate to technological and civilizational dominance. In addition to a clumsy, Bronze Age writing system, China has a remarkably primitive legal tradition by Western standards. Rule of Law is a concept that has never been applied in China, and there are no serious efforts to implement it. This depresses innovation for the obvious reason that the powerful (or even the merely crafty and unscrupulous) can expropriate intellectual property and leave the innovator with no reliable means for obtaining compensation.

    Additionally, rampant cheating and fakery mean that separating the wheat from the chaff is very difficult. Efforts to address this, such as the new “social credit” system, are only as effective as the people running it, which again brings us back to the law issue: if those setting the standards are not held to objective standards themselves, isn’t it inevitable that they will begin to abuse their power in ways that put their own interests ahead of the people’s?

    Even if IQ is higher on average than, say, Norway, what’s to keep Chinese from stepping on their neighbors to rise higher in the social hierarchy? And when they do finally arrive at the top, what’s to keep them from pulling up the ladder and even hurling impediments at those who would follow them? This is in fact the Chinese way. Although this tendency is common throughout humanity, Chinese have few cultural practices to mitigate this behavior, having instead institutionalized it. This is why China needs constant growth to prevent revolutionary sentiment from arising: the entire society is essentially a giant ponzi scheme that is prone to collapse when it runs out of steam.

    • Replies: @Amen
    , @Johann Ricke
    , @tamo
    , @tamo
  164. tamo says:
    @Jake

    Get off this Euro -white supremacy bullshit. When Germans were running around in animal skins in the ancient Europe, China’s Han dynasty already had the essentials of a sophisticated modern state. After fall of the Western Roman Empire, ignorant, barbaric, low-iq conquering Germans couldn’t run the old empire so that things in western Europe went backward like aqueducts and roads being in severe disrepair. These dismal conditions lasted for many hundred years because Germans couldn’t have the skills or knowledge to preserve and build on what’s left by the Romans. You said “The Chinese always move toward a system in maybe 30%, often no more than 20%, of the population owns and controls at least 80% of the national wealth, and the society necessarily stagnates into a permanent hellhole save for the super rich”. You sound like you are describing America or many European countries, lol !!! Rejuvenation of Christendom? I don’t think so. Just look at Europe which is in the middle of moslem invasion and America where less and less young people become Christian and by 2045, there is a good chance the whites in America will be a minority.

  165. Anonymous[423] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It sounds like you watched Idiocracy one too many times.

    Regarding the gap between China and the other East Asian societies, I don’t think this is a permanent gap.

    It is hard for Chinese scientists to crank out 1st world scientific research while so many of their people are still working long days in rice paddies.

    As their economy improves I expect to see China normalize with the other East Asian countries.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  166. Bliss says:
    @Jake

    The Chinese have NEVER developed or run a civilization truly worth having……..Japan’s history is almost as bad, as is Korea’s…….Civilization worth having is only built upon European values and cultural identities. I submit that there will be no saving of civilization, nor any rebuilding after a major collapse, unless whites end their rebellion against Christendom. Either there is rebuilding and maintaining Western Christian Civilization, or there is decay into utter barbarity.

    What a pretentious ignoramus. Christianity did not originate in Europe. It was not “built upon European values and cultural identities”. Read the Bible and stop bullshitting.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  167. @Escher

    The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians who have developed a first world country. The Vietnamese are less intelligent than the Japanese. Vietnam never was and never will be great again.

  168. People with lower openess ”debating” about openess… what a crap..

  169. @Stan d Mute

    As I have commented before, most commentators on this website and several others can be grouped into 3 types: RCCers who accept black/Asian priests-popes, insane anti-Semites and Western males involved with Asian females.

    Many commentators scribble about the JQ: Jewish Question. When I found out that many commentators are involved with Asian females this cleared up many of the contradictions and hypocrisy posted by these commentators. John Derbyshire is exhibit A.

    My language is mild compared to what I have seen from other commentators. I had to give the Asian female problem a name: Asian Poontang Problem (APP). This is why I ask the Western commentators if they are involved with Asian women. If they are, they are worthless to the West.

    The German Reader is not involved with Asian female, but I have a feeling he is planning on this in the future. Hence his degenerate interest in Vietnam. He will not fight for his true country – Germany.

    Is there APP in your life?

  170. @tamo

    And yet, the modern world we have today is a strictly Western creation. Blacks/Asians have to stop appropriating Western culture, i.e., airplanes, computers, telephones, cars, etc.

    The Chinese can use the abacus for their calculations.

    • Replies: @tamo
  171. FKA Max says: • Website
    @tamo

    Turn of the Screw

    ONE GOOD TURN
    A Natural History of the Screwdriver and the Screw.
    By Witold Rybczynski.

    What Rybczynski sees is that everything that requires mechanical precision, and that includes the instrumentation of modern science, rises out of the perfection of the simple screw and the complex machinery required to manufacture these indispensable items. He notes at the conclusion of the book that science (sometimes self-deprecatingly or self-consciously called ”Western science”) did not develop in cultures unfamiliar with the screw. In China, for example, where astrology did not evolve into astronomy or alchemy into chemistry, he writes, ”They didn’t know screws at all: the screw is the only major mechanical device that they did not independently invent.”

    https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/00/09/10/reviews/000910.10mont.html

    It is considered by some that the screw thread was invented in about 400BC by Archytas of Tarentum (428 BC – 350 BC). Archytas is sometimes called the founder of mechanics and was a contemporary of Plato. One of the first applications of the screw principle was in presses for the extraction of oils from olives and juice from grapes. The oil presses in Pomeii were worked by the screw principle.

    [MORE]

    Archimedes (287 BC – 212 BC) developed the screw principle and used it to construct devices to raise water. The water screw may have originated in Egypt before the time of Archimedes. It was constructed from wood and was used for land irrigation and to remove bilge-water from ships. The Romans applied the Archimedean screw to mine drainage. The screw was described in the first century AD in Mechanica of Heron of Alexandria. http://www.boltscience.com/pages/screw2.htm

    The screw press which allowed direct pressure to be applied on flat-plane was already of great antiquity in Gutenberg’s time and was used for a wide range of tasks.[11] Introduced in the 1st century AD by the Romans, it was commonly employed in agricultural production for pressing wine grapes and (olive) oil fruit, both of which formed an integral part of the mediterranean and medieval diet.[12] The device was also used from very early on in urban contexts as a cloth press for printing patterns.[13] Gutenberg may have also been inspired by the paper presses which had spread through the German lands since the late 14th century and which worked on the same mechanical principles.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press#Technological_factors

    What the Romans Did For Us Life of Luxury Ep 1 ©BBC

    The screw press, reconstructed using traditional techniques by carpenter Henry Russell, was used to produce wine.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Romans_Did_for_Us

    • Replies: @tamo
  172. @tamo

    This is really a waste of time to engage with them.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  173. @Truth

    Attila has no idea what the ructions of immigration from Germany to the US are-she’s lived in an exurb somewhere all her life and never traveled anywhere out of the country.

    Most blacks in Europe could not possibly reach the US or they already would have.

    Even the forgotten children of black serviceman around the bases, of which there are many, cannot qualify for US citizenship.

    Seemingly, the US only wants Red Indians from Central America.

    Turks are now 3rd generation Germans so it would be hard to get rid of them.

  174. @tamo

    China was taken over by Manchurian nomads from Siberia far into Medieval times and Manchu became the rulers of China so barbarians were not simply running Rome.

    • Replies: @tamo
  175. @Daniel Chieh

    DANIEL

    Just as Rome was toppled by Northern barbarians, so too did Northern barbarians known as Manchu from Siberia invade China and become its ruling elite.

    In this respect, Manchu were analogous to both the Germanic tribes that sacked Rome and the Normans who invaded England in 1066.

    We can sit here and argue which culture was more barbaric. It would be pointless.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  176. @AnonFromTN

    Then your resounding knowledge resounds like a nickel dropped on a shag rug: the predictive power of IQ tests and of their close kin in college tests has been proven and demonstrated for decades. Kids with a 19 on the ACT never become neurologists or electrical engineers. The data and the policies they produce are readily available. Don’t troll.

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
    , @AnonFromTN
  177. @FKA Max

    “Ethnic Germans”

    Many Jews are German-descended and would respond to a census by simply stating “German” for origin.

    So the label covers Amish in Ohio (Actually Austrians of some sort) and Sarah Silverman.

  178. The problem is that China is that it never quite recovered from communism, an idealogy which by its very nature is dysgenic. The most extreme example is Cambodia in the 70’s, killing people who wore glasses because it was assumed they were smart.

  179. In China a rural girl like you might have been drowned by her parents in the bathtub. I heard about this in 1983 or 1984 when I was 10 years old.

    That was in my lifetime, not 1750. I’m 44 years old and as a child of the 80′s I remember this was an issue in China.

  180. @Bliss

    Vikings in Iceland were still pagans when Rome was ruled by the Vatican and Jews were long dispersed into Europe.

  181. @Eric Novak

    Kids with a 19 on the ACT never become neurologists or electrical engineers.

    I dunno about that and it frightens me. We have offshore med schools like Ross in Barbados, unrated loser schools like Stritcher, and we get doctors from places like Zimbabwe University (I know of at least two cardiologists here). Doctors should be required to publish their MCAT scores. And electrical engineers, unless they are PE’s, aren’t required to prove any abilities are they?

  182. @Eric Novak

    Thanks for coming out of the closet with your naked ignorance. The tests are well known to people who tried to use them for decades as worthless. Every person who spent some time on college admissions committee knows that SAT scores have no predictive value: they only show how much time people spent preparing for them. I was on the admissions committee of our graduate program for eight years, and I know first-hand that GRE scores do not predict the performance of graduate students. We still have to pay attention to the scores only because when you write training grant renewal, you have to demonstrate that you are selective, i.e., take kids with good scores. But we do know that those scores mean nothing whatsoever, except that very low scores usually suggest stupidity. Anything above 50% of max is purely random, as far as intelligence, creativity, and future success of the students in grad school and beyond is concerned. The value of test scores is exactly the same as the value of “diversity” – nil. Of course, a burger-flipper would religiously believe in scores. S/he would not know any better.

    • Replies: @Hbd investor
  183. tamo says:
    @FKA Max

    The absence of the continuous screw and worm in traditional China SHOULDN’T be taken to mean no helicoidal forms were in China; on the contrary, there were many of those things. For example,there was the zoetrope, or vane-wheel rotated by by an ascending air current, or the helicopter top or horizontal air-screw which itself ascended when rapidly rotated by a cord, The skew-set vanes of all sch devices were (like the oblique paddle-boards of horizontal water mills or the sails of early vertical windmills) essentially separate flat surfaces tangent to the continuously curving helix of a complete screw or worm. So it s possible to define rather precisely the different achievements of the Hellenistic and Chinese worlds, for while the Greeks made abundant applications of elongated screw and worm shapes, the Chinese early developed tangent-plane helicoid structures. According to Dr. Peter Liu of Harvard University who published his research paper in Science, China invented the complex (compound) machine about 2550 years ago. That’s about 600 years earlier than Hero of Alexandria was previously thought to have invented the machine. For your information, science itself was born in the Islamic civilization in the 11th century with the birth of EXPERIMENTAL SCIENTIFIC METHOD that the medieval European scholars eagerly copied thus bringing science to Europe. For your information, all the ancient civilizations were PRE-SCIENTIFIC. Without the Islamic invention of SCIENCE itself, there would have been NO MODERN SCIENCE in Europe.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @FKA Max
  184. @attilathehen

    Is there APP in your life?

    I’d say the appellation is vulgar, but my homie Ted Nugent published a song using the word and honestly Detriot itself is more vulgar than any word. I have a cracker poontang problem (CPP) but I chose my fate and must abide it. The problem isn’t that she’s a cracker, since everybody in my family is, but that she’s female and that is problem enough for me.

  185. @Jeff Stryker

    Eh. I don’t think anyone is arguing who’s more barbaric. Its overall quite pointless.

    The Manchu have since ceased to have an identity, though, so in that sense China was much more successfully in absorbing them in total than the Germanics were by Rome. A more accurate comparison would be the Mongols, who also triggered a great deal of civilization destruction.

    Tang and Song were definitely ahead of Europe, though since Han was roughly equivalent(I’ve gone through this once, with a number of metrics) and then Europe self-destructed into the Dark Ages.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @AnonFromTN
  186. @AnonFromTN

    America simply attracted many entrepreneurs from Europe after the Civil War.

    At that point, industrialization and a booming surplus economy fueled invention. Levi Strauss, for example, was a German Jew who discovered that miners would purchase jeans. For example.

    The other colonies mostly attracted completely impoverished English settlers from Dickensian conditions in UK.

  187. FKA Max says: • Website
    @tamo

    The Renaissance Myth

    http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/renaissance.html Archived link: http://archive.is/iZmxu

    Just look at Europe which is in the middle of moslem invasion [...]

    Europe has been under threat of Muslim invasion for 1300 years, which, incidentally, is also what caused and contributed to the “Dark Ages”…

    Did Islam cause the Dark Ages?

    [MORE]

    Where the so-called Dark Ages actually “dark”? Not at first. The barbarian invaders admired Roman civilization. When Alaric the Goth (Visigoth) sacked Rome in 410, the capital of the western empire had already been moved to Ravenna. The Goths had originally been supporters of Rome and served in its military, but after the Huns forced them to move, they faced discrimination from the Romans and their support turned to resentment.
    [...]
    Essentially, the entire Dark Ages consisted of relentless attacks by Muslims. They came on slaving raids, sometimes enslaving entire towns. They committed mass murder, killing hundreds of thousands to millions. Thousands of churches were destroyed. Education declined because the papyrus supply was cut off after Egypt was captured by Umar, the second caliph, in 640. Thereafter, Europeans had to reuse old texts and parchment became a luxury. Without a supply of paper for learning, poor Europeans grew increasingly illiterate. While Europe was under constant bombardment, so was North Africa, India and even China.
    [...]
    The only reasonable conclusion is that Islam indeed caused what was known as the Dark Ages.

    https://www.quora.com/Did-Islam-cause-the-Dark-Ages

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Destruction of Classical Civilization

    A historical account of 1300 years of jihad against western civilization and the spread of Islam.

    Bill Warner, PhD: Jihad vs Crusades

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Not So Golden Age of Islam

    We are often told of the greatness of the Islamic Golden Age. But how much actual gold was there? And why does Islam do so poorly in intellectual work today?

    • Replies: @tamo
    , @Seraphim
    , @Logan
  188. tamo says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    The Manchus took over China in the 17th century. Their rule lasted about 250 years. But during this time period, the Manchus were almost completely became SINICIZED. You can find very few Manchus in the North East (formerly Manchuria)

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @Nawyr
  189. @FKA Max

    Norwegians are strongest in Fargo! I thought they all lived in Alabama. What a revelation.

    Most Italians live in the Northeast? This would make sense, the Yankee factory owners did not want the issue of slavery and could pay Sicilians a pittance.

    Chinese live in New York and California for the most part? Why would you immigrate anywhere else?

    French live on the border of Quebec and Vermont or down in Louisiana?

    This is a revelation.

  190. @gmachine1729

    I wonder what percentage of the people who subscribe to all the Chinese lack creativity and China’s system cannot be innovative talk is actually in serious STEM.

    I’m fairly well engaged and its probably true. The specific mechanism likely has to do with stronger inhibitory systems which seem to also compromise creativity. Understanding the brain is necessary in order to modify its behavior, if desired but its also an useful lesson that nature works in boom/bust methods rather than any specific angle of balance.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  191. tamo says:
    @attilathehen

    For your information, before the Industrial Revolution, Europe copied a lot of Chinese technologies without which the SPREAD of Renaissance, European gunpowder -based weapons revolution, the European voyages of discovery, the Industrial Revolution would have been IMPOSSIBLE. According to Robert Temple, a well-respected scholar of the Oriental Studies, more than half of the inventions that laid the foundations for the modern world before the Industrial Revolution came from China. By looking at the things going on now, I think there is a very good chance China will RECLAIM it’s position as the technology superpower that it lost with the coming of the Industrial Revolution, by 2040.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @attilathehen
  192. FKA Max says: • Website
    @tamo

    See comment with video here:

    Bill Warner, PhD: The Not So Golden Age of Islam

    We are often told of the greatness of the Islamic Golden Age. But how much actual gold was there? And why does Islam do so poorly in intellectual work today?

    https://www.unz.com/article/dysgenics-and-low-creativity-why-china-cant-save-civilization/#comment-2488512

    Many of the so-called Golden Age of Islam advances were actually advances made by other cultures and “borrowed” by Arabs and converts to Islam, or by Jews and Christians living as dhimmis. Islamic texts often have an unscientific tinge to them, such as Quran 18:83–86 and Sunan Abu Dawud 3991, which describe the Sun setting in a pool of hot or muddy water. The so-called Arabic numerals came from India. Al-Khwarizmi called them “Hindu numerals.” Algebra, a word coined by the same Al-Khwarizmi, goes as far back as the Babylonians. Al-Khwarizmi used translated Greek texts, and was raised a Zoroastrian in medieval Persia. Others had to disobey Islamic laws in order to make their discoveries, such as Ibn al-Nafis, who secretly dissected human bodies to learn about circulation. One of the top translators of ancient Greek texts into Arabic was Hunayn ibn Ishaq, a Nestorian Christian.

    https://www.quora.com/Did-Islam-cause-the-Dark-Ages and https://www.quora.com/Did-Islam-cause-the-Dark-Ages/answer/Richard-Warner-26

    • Replies: @tamo
  193. @Daniel Chieh

    Europeans stumbled upon industrialization sooner, and mostly by accident. Civilizations get a temporary advantage and this changes the game for a few centuries.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  194. @tamo

    I’d compare them to the Normans. However, China was nonetheless taken over by these barbarians.

    Then again, barbarians have taken over the inner-cities of the US. Primitive physical courage and a complete lack of ethics as well as nothing to lose always gives barbarians the edge.

    • Replies: @tamo
  195. @Stan d Mute

    “Cracker”

    That’s fine, but don’t extend your definition of white to German-Americans or Italian-Americans. We are not wandering around wearing Confederate belts and our ancestors were not British freebooters who settled in the pine barrens with some squaw.

    We Yankee whites have our own heritage.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
    , @Stan d Mute
  196. AaronB says:
    @tamo

    I agree, China will reclaim its position as the technological superpower by 2040, as you say.

    Then you can relax. You’ve proven yourself. No one is superior to you.

    After that, I hope you can also reclaim the traditional Chinese attitude of not caring so much about this stuff and having nothing to prove.

    Right now China has accepted white values and seeks to prove itself in the white mans world – if you could do what the white man does, even better, then you will have worth. What the white man deems worthy – you seem worthy.

    I understand why you need to do this, and I hope you do it soon – then I hope you step out of the shadow of the white man and his values and reclaim your old culture.

    When we want something very bad and don’t yet have it, it seems incredibly desirable – often, when we get it, it’s disappointing.

    • Agree: Talha
  197. @Daniel Chieh

    The great strength of China was always the size of the population. It absorbed Manchu, and Mongols before them, due to sheer numbers. China is doing the same thing with Uighurs in Xinjiang, the government simply encourages Han people to move there. BTW, Chinese pronounce Uighur as Wiger, which means a totally different thing in the US.

    In the Soviet Union during tensions with China there was a joke about Sino-Soviet war. Day one. The Army command reports to the party bosses: today we surrendered 100 million. Day two: today we surrendered 200 million. Day three: today we surrendered 300 million. Let them figure out who is who’s prisoner.

    In all this assimilation thing, I always wondered what the results are genetically. For example, Han people do not have sweat glands in their armpits, whereas others do. Do assimilated and Sinicized Mongols, Manchu, and Uighurs still have sweat glands?

  198. tamo says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    There is big difference. At the end, instead of dominated by ” bamarians” the Han Chinese dominated over Mongols, Manchus, Tibetans, Uyghurs.

    • Replies: @Nawyr
    , @Jeff Stryker
  199. Anonymous[406] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    As the member of previous genius class in the China best university in 90s, I found that nearly all of my classmates were busy in making money rather than doing pure research & academic jobs, no matter how smart they were proved in IMO, IPhO, etc.

    The key reason I guess: food & shelter were highly prioritized (reflected as money) in the mind after over 100 years of deep poverty and hunger.

    Now the status has been changed, but the new generation still needs more time for mature scientific culture and ecosystem, which costed 50~100 years in the history of west countries.

    i.e, I don’t think that the current Nature Index is good indicator for your viewpoint.

  200. @Jeff Stryker

    Why are you living in Asia with APP? You couldn’t find a Yankee woman with whom you could share your heritage? You say German and Italian Americans are not white? You sound just like Derbyshire.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  201. Truth says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Unlike American ghetto dwellers, even the very poor over there are responsible (that’s a topic for another discussion).

    Terminating a life because you didn’t get exactly what you want is, “responsible?”

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  202. @Stan d Mute

    At least your keeping it in the Western family.

  203. Amen says:
    @Bill P

    Spot on! China is the Wild East and probably always will be. Dishonesty and selfishness are ingrained in the Chinese culture. The day China leads the world is the day the world plunges into darkness. Just look at advanced societies with a dominant Chinese population such as Hong Kong or Taiwan, total dog-eat-dog, unpleasant societies even to visit, much less to live in. The only exception is Singapore and that’s only because they’ve adopted English as the lingua franca. But with the reversal back to Chinese and high immigration from China due to China’s rise, Singapore is sure to revert back to the corrupt Chinese ways.

  204. @Patricus

    In the United States, the single IQ score is used to determine whether someone who has received the death penalty can be executed. People with an IQ of roughly 70 or below cannot be executed.

  205. Amen says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The great strength of China was always the size of the population.

    It’s not a strength, it’s a liability. The average Chinese will always be much poorer than the average westerner due to its 1.4 billion mouths to feed.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  206. Nawyr says:
    @tamo

    And becore that, Mongols had taken over China.

    And before that, it was Jurchen nomads.

    And before that, it was Turks.

    Etc.

    Spotting a pattern here?

    • Replies: @tamo
  207. Nawyr says:
    @tamo

    No they didn’t. Manchu remained in power and the people in China today in power have Manchu genetics. Han Chinese culture had been Manchurianized — that’s why all those Han Chinese coming to the USA back in the day were wearing shaved heads and long braids.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  208. tamo says:
    @FKA Max

    Sure, there were some Jews and converted-Christian moslems who contributed to the Islamic science and mathematics. That doesn’t mean the Islamic science and mathematics were dominated by Jews and converted Christian moslems. Just like there are Chinese and Indian scientists and mathematicians contributing to the American science. But a vast majority of scientists and mathematicians in America are Americans. Also Ibn al Haytam is considered the first scientist in the world history by some scholars. His Book of Optics is the world’s first scientific treatise that greatly influenced many European scientists.
    Also there is a good chance “the Hindu-Arabic Numerals were originated from China because there are a lot of similarities between the”Hindu-Arabic” Numerals and more ancient Chinese counting rod numerals. Read THE DEVELOPMENT OF HINDU -ARABIC AND TRADITIONAL CHINESE ARITHMETIC by Dr. Lam Lay Yong, a member of The International Academy of The History of Science. You talk about ancient Greek “science” and math influencing the Arabic scholars . How about the ancient Greeks copying math, astronomy, medicine from the ancient Babylonians who just happen to be the ANCESTORS of Arabs ? For your information, Hippocratic Oath was heavily copied from a more ancient Babylonian medical text and circulation of blood was NOT discovered by either Arabs or William Harvey. It was discovered by Chinese in the 2nd century BC.

  209. tamo says:
    @FKA Max

    The Dark Ages in Europe was MAINLY caused by the inability of ignorant and far less intelligent Germanic tribes to run the old empire after they sacked and took over the more advanced Roman Empire. At this time period, Europe was at the bottom of the heap. The Islamic civilization was MUCH MUCH MORE advanced than the third-rate Europe.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
    , @Talha
    , @FKA Max
  210. FKA Max says: • Website
    @tamo

    Bill Warner, PhD: Why We Are Afraid: 1400 Years of Fear – Czech Sub-titles

    Did Islam Destroy Classical Civilizations?
    John J. O’Neill

    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1780&context=ccr Archived link: https://web.archive.org/web/20180829054753/https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1780&context=ccr

    [MORE]

    Decline of Classical Civilization
    “One of the most enduring problems of history is the decline of Classical Civilization.
    How is it, scholars have long asked, that the civilization of Greece and Rome, which
    had endured over a thousand years, gave way to the world of the Medieval, an age
    which saw, for a while, the decline and apparent disappearance of the rationalist spirit
    of Greece and Rome?
    In academic and journalistic literature and in the popular imagination, there is no
    mystery at all. After the Barbarian Invasions of the 5th century, we are told, the
    peoples of Western Europe reverted to living in thatched, wattle-and-daub huts. Cities
    were destroyed and abandoned, the art of writing virtually lost, and the mass of the
    population kept in a state of ignorance by an obscurantist and fanatical Church, which
    effectively completed the destructive work of the Barbarians. Into this darkened
    stage, the Arabs arrived in the 7th and 8th centuries like a ray of light. Tolerant and
    learned, they brought knowledge of the science of antiquity back into Europe and,
    under their influence, Westerners began the long journey back to civilization.
    That, in a nutshell, is the story told in an enormous number of scholarly treatises and
    academic textbooks. It is a story implicitly accepted by a large majority of
    professional historians, both in Europe and North America; and yet it is a version of
    the past that is completely and utterly false. Indeed, it would be difficult to imagine a
    narrative further removed from what actually happened.”

    • Replies: @tamo
  211. Miro23 says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Understanding the brain is necessary in order to modify its behavior, if desired but it’s also an useful lesson that nature works in boom/bust methods rather than any specific angle of balance.

    Agree with that, and the classic over-ripe fruit is Empire.

    When societies reach the” Imperial stage” they invariably ascribe their dominance (even while falling apart) to ethnic/biological/racial superiority. It happens every time . Who has ever heard of a humble Imperialist?

    It was finally true with regard to the Roman Citizen, The Englishman, the Germanic Superman, post war Americans (Shining “City on a Hill”) and the current racial doctrines of 21st century Jewish Imperialism. The Chinese will be no different, and will no doubt ascribe their Imperial power to the ethnic superiority of the Chinese – giving them a convenient and obvious right to subjugate lesser races. They will have no problems with it, and are already giving it a trial run in South East Asia.

  212. Objectively speaking, in STEM creativity, Chinese are not bad. Of course not spectacular, but they’ve definitely produced some real geniuses. In the theoretical sciences people like Shiing-shen Chern in math and Chen-Ning Yang in theoretical physics. Plenty of Chinese as professors in top STEM departments in the US. Also several prominent Chinese technologist entrepreneurs in the semiconductor/chip field.

    Japanese have surely done better, as one can see from their many recent Nobel Prizes, but they also started much earlier.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  213. @tamo

    Manchurian were the Normans to Hans Anglo-Celts crossed with the Vandals that sacked Rome.

    They became the ruling elite of China and forced Fuji Chinese to flee all the way South in the near-tropics even though Manchurian were from Siberia.

    So that is sort of backwards. The Manchurian, a vaguely Eurasian Siberian tribe from Russia, took over China.

    Uighur also successfully invaded China from Turkey.

    So many people got over the wall.

    Han cornered the seaboard and Eastern interior but the Manchurian really squashed them and the Turks to this day semi-own Uighur Western China.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @tamo
  214. @Anonymous

    还有科大少年班校友在这上面啊?真没想到这里会吸引那么多中国人。这说起,您现在在做啥啊?我感觉中国科技大学校友在美国留在学术界拿到终身教职的还真不少。

  215. @Anonymous

    Correct. And with said societies having 2-3x less per capita elite science output than the US, convergence would mean that China would be comparable to – not dominant over – the US.

  216. @Anonymous

    UR commenter Daniel Chieh recently told us about an acquaintance of his who wanted to do AI research at a leading Beijing university, but his family pressured him into becoming a (higher-paid) office drone. With China’s traditions of filial piety, whose overweening nature was remarked upon by Westerners even in the 19th century, this is going to be a hard pattern to break.

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  217. @attilathehen

    I get a nice paycheck to worry about that shithole and the other shithole in that region. That’s how I feed the family (and Merkel’s adopted sons for now).

    If Hitler had beeen smart he would have just be content with Sudetenland & Austria and deported them Juice to British Palestine. Cold War would have been much more interesting with Germany XL.

    People like me are content with deporting all illegal migrants, abolishing the asylum-laws and strong safe borders. Furthermore expanding the prison-terms to jail hundred-thousands of Paper-Europeans, who are Jihadist. There is no need to go full-gas-chamber on the issue.

    Here is a little info for you:

    1. AfD is already polling at road-block-Level in E-Germany with aprox. 20 -25%. The three state-elections next year will force Merkel to handover the leadership of the CDU. The next chancellor in 2021 will have to be much closer to the Orban-Salvini line or else the AfD might control the government in 2025.

    2. Eastern-German men make up 70% of soldiers in the Bundeswehr. Currently the officer-corps is still West-German, but by 2025 the officer-corps will nearly 80% East-German. Merkel her cronies know about the potential for a coup d’etat, that’s why they have been starving the Bundeswehr of funds – but Trump put an end to this.

    3. The Western European governments all know that during the last French presidential elections, the overwhelming majority of French police-officers and active soldiers have voted for Le Pen. This applies to the Swedish Forces/police and the Swedish Democrats as well.

    4. Day of Reckoning starts next week with the Swedish elections.

    In darker corners of the web, I would call you a shill/JIDF/Sorosbitch/Shareblue/glowinthedark/Lügenpresse-negro. But here I will call you a lazy provocateur.

    Long-term Unz.com-Readers like me recognize the new kind of commenters here, who spend alot of time insulting other commenters.

    @ Ron Unz: I hope you keep an eye on the IP-adresses and the new influx of retards into this site.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  218. Seraphim says:
    @attilathehen

    @Who would want to live in Vietnam besides the Vietnamese?

    The French loved it very much. So much so that they did not want to leave it.

  219. Seraphim says:
    @FKA Max

    It is time to see the light through the ‘Dark Ages’, but you have to shed the politically correct blinkers that Islam brought the ‘Renaissance’ to a Europe stultified by the Church bigotry. And not be afraid that you will be called an ‘Islamophobe’. Actually the light was saved in Europe against the true spread of the Dark Age of Islam.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  220. @attilathehen

    I say German-Americans and Italian-Americans are not white? I say they are not crackers.

  221. @Truth

    Nah, not the abortion, Truth. They are responsible in mentality. That means they don’t want to have a kid and plan on letting other people pay to raise them, as is done here. Abortion is done just as much in the black ghetto, but then you still end up with 2 or 3 (sometimes more) that other people, trying to raise their own kids responsibly, have to pay for.

    The responsible ones in China who still insisted on having boys would just have raised them off-the-grid, which is pretty much not a choice in parts of China even now. I mean, though, that they could not be registered in school and all that. I know people who had 7 kids in order to have a boy (he was #7, of course), but they didn’t expect fellow Chinamen to pay for those. The only ones who helped, besides family, were Americans! Yes, Americans – even in the 1970′s, we had been sending them corn. Sure it was feed corn, but you don’t look a gift capitalist roader in the mouth, right?

  222. @attilathehen

    I do like your terminology, Attila. I would point out to you that the Middle Kingdom, China, I mean, has had this 5,000 year long continuous culture. That’s MMMMM or half a wan, if you’re Roman or Chinese, irrespectfully. You have to keep in mind that some guys like women who have not (YET) picked up the highly-caustic Western feminism. Some like the old culture ingrained in these Oriental women like an ancient whisper from deep in the Poontang Dynasty.

    And, yes, of course I’ve heard Ted Nugent’s Wang, Dang, Sweet Poontang, but I’m still partial to Cat Scratch Fever. Mr. Nugent has my respect for his strong support of US Constitution – Amendment II.

  223. Miro23 says:
    @Another German Reader

    2. Eastern-German men make up 70% of soldiers in the Bundeswehr. Currently the officer-corps is still West-German, but by 2025 the officer-corps will nearly 80% East-German. Merkel her cronies know about the potential for a coup d’etat, that’s why they have been starving the Bundeswehr of funds – but Trump put an end to this.

    3. The Western European governments all know that during the last French presidential elections, the overwhelming majority of French police-officers and active soldiers have voted for Le Pen. This applies to the Swedish Forces/police and the Swedish Democrats as well.

    Just suppose that there was a coup. The people who’re supposed to regain order, would probably sympathize with the coup, or may be actively involved – and don’t expect any EU country to send their reluctant troops across any frontiers.

    And talking about Germany, France and Sweden, there are similarities in the UK and the US. If for example, the US should go this route, the first piece of business would be to do everyone a favor and arrest and question everyone remotely connected to 9/11 (inc. administration, CIA, FBI, media, port authority, airlines, building owners, maintenance, security etc.) and get the full story behind the story.

  224. @Amen

    The number of people is the number of mouths to feed, but at the same time the number of goods’ producers. Besides, China produces real goods (just visit any store in the US: virtually everything, from nails and socks to computers and trendy clothes, is made in China), in contrast to the US, where ~60% of GDP is hot air (politically correct term is “financial services”; there are other tricks: at least 6% is “rent” home owners would have paid themselves if they were crazy enough to rent their homes from themselves).

    By your logic Malta should be the richest country in Europe, which is patently not true.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  225. @Jeff Stryker

    The wall was fairly successful; the number of failed invasions and raids is innumerable and the Ming lasted three hundred years. They ultimately were undone by a massive internal rebellion partly spurred by the Little Ice Age, and the Manchu could not have succeeded without significant help from Chinese generals(many who were disaffected by the rebellions). Ultimately, the success of the Manchu was political rather than military – they practiced a policy of rapid sinicization, kept Chinese officials and institutions intact(such as the Imperial Exams and the scholar-officials), claimed the Mandate of Heaven(a Chinese concept), and married Manchu princesses to Chinese generals.

    They were quite aware of what had happened to the Mongols, so they attempted to avoid becoming completely absorbed while sacrificing as much as possible to maintain steady running and to encourage the Chinese to cooperate. Ultimately they failed as they lacked even a native written language, nomadic culture can’t translate well to urban life and Manchu is now a dying language that China spends millions to try to maintain.

    No idea what you’re talking about Uighurs. Uighurs were settled in China after the Dzungars were destroyed; the Uighurs were allies of the Chinese against the Dzungars and thus given lands to settle, and several cities were built for them. The name is Chinese: Xinjiang, for “New Territory.”

    The closest to possible uighur involvement goes back to the Xiongnu Confederacy(which was a collection of nomadic tribes, some which may have be proto-uighur), which defeated the Han Dynasty in a war. This was reversed in eighty years, the Xiongu fell apart after defeats by the Han.

    • Replies: @bucky
    , @ThatDamnGood
  226. @gmachine1729

    There’s something off about the education system, as they’ve talked about even in China. The greatest Chinese scientist in recent memory is probably Qian Xuesen, who was directly involved with the nuclear program, the rocketry programs, hydropower and arguably sketched out the thoughts being social credit. His engineering cybernetics class is still taught at US and German universities to this day. Considering the importance of the nuclear program, the AS/AD defense systems and hydropower is to China today, his contribution to Chinese technology cannot be overestimated.

    Yet, he wasn’t a product of the education system in China. He was a graduate of MIT and worked at CalTech. Had the US not flipped out and deported him to China because they couldn’t tell the difference between a Nationalist and a Communist(and thought that a logbook was secret spy code), he probably would be writing theoretical mathematics and its applications to engineering for the rest of his life.

    So what’s wrong with Beida and Tsinghua grads? I doubt that they, fundamentally, lack his capabilities. But there’s something going on that makes them primarily engage in less theoretical, and doesn’t allow them to truly grow. And perhaps its of the entire “credit stealing” which I feel is going on: Ma Weiming almost certainly is not solely responsible for the successful railgun though he probably had something to do with the development of the transmission system. However, I’m pretty sure he’s taken credit for his entire team.

    That can’t be heartening if you’re one of those people.

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
    , @gmachine1729
  227. @Nawyr

    Nonsense. It would have been the equivalent of Tecumseh’s confederacy had successfully conquered the newly formed US with help from US defectors. They would rapidly find themselves incapable of administrating urban areas, and that nomadic norms wouldn’t work. They would also not be able to stop their children from reading English books, watching English plays, or otherwise engaging in American culture.

    The most they could do would be to attempt to cargo cult some version of their old culture, which is basically what the Manchus did, but it was a stalling tactic. China now pays millions to try to preserve Manchu language and culture from being lost in total.

  228. @AnonFromTN

    I have sweat glands but I’m part Mongol.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  229. DC says:

    Karl Marx and the accumulation of capital has absolutely nothing to do with the industrial revolution.
    I’m a Brit that lives close to where the IR took off.
    We live on an island that gets cold at night and cold in the winter, it rains a lot and we also keep having babies.
    After we cut down all the trees there was nothing to burn but by happy circumstance our little island also happened to have one of the largest coal deposits on the planet arranged in seams that run deep underground and under the North Sea.
    So we burned all the coal we could get at but then we had a problem that water would constantly flood the mines so if we didn’t find ways of removing the water to get at the coal we would all freeze to death in winter.
    Once we had invented a really inefficient pump we could get at the rest of the coal and not die. At first we used canals to move stuff around but after we had improved the pumps, invented engines and put them on rails we realised it was much easier to build trains and railways instead of canals. If you visit Britain today you will still find thousands of miles of canals, all built by white, British working class men while their children were down the mine digging for coal.
    The idea that you can invent your way out of problems on a large scale instead of slaughtering each other is far more an explanation of the IR than anything Marx wrote.

  230. tamo says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Daniel Chieh’s reply is excellent.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  231. @Daniel Chieh

    In just finished 2018 international congress of mathematicians, there are 8 invited speakers out of 180 are Beijing university graduates.

  232. @Anatoly Karlin

    I read the story of Daniel Chieh‘s friend, I didn’t think it was the whole story at the time.

    After 27 years of Mao’s ruling with his relentless efforts to destroy outdated traditional culture and to establish new culture, and another 40 years of opening doors to the West, traditions like filial piety don’t have a strong hold on Chinese people any more. Old culture and traditions are relatively easy to get rid of, the new good ones are hard to form. I think this’s part of the reason stopped Japan and Korea from producing more scientific output and will be the bottle neck for China. Comparing what I know about Korean and Japanese, I think we Chinese are less bonded by traditions and more open to the west, China should be a lot more creative once China industrialized.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  233. @ChineseMom

    I don’t think that its so easy to dismiss the importance of money to the Chinese. He’s a very important member of one of the leading credit card systems, which is great for him. But he’s not researching anything and as he noted, its kind of sad. But he wouldn’t be able to make very much if he continued to do his little animal brain to machine experiments and that’s life.

    As AnonFromTN here can confirm, academics don’t exactly break the bank. The work is its own fulfillment. But that’s hard to explain to your parents, or your wife why you can’t give your kids a better life.

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
  234. @tamo

    Here’s Robert Temple’s wiki: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Robert_Temple

    His “oriental studies” were with APP. This guy is a nutcase. Asia/Africa had nothing to do with the West’s development. Read Ricardo Duchesne’s book The Uniqueness of Western Civilization.

    China never was and never will be great again. The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians and are the only Asians with a first world country. China will never do this. China is collapsing. Over 400 million abortions in the past 30 years have now made it the fastest aging country in the world. Coupled with an average IQ of 90, this has brought about China’s end. This is good news.

    If you wan to believe China is great, do it in China, not the West.

    • Replies: @ChineseMom
    , @tamo
    , @Anon
  235. @Jeff Stryker

    I’ve written about this before, but I actually believe that Catholicism, especially Catholic rationalism, was a huge boost for European science. Any of the early books by Bacon or Linnaeus shows strong religious undertones to discover the divine through physical knowledge; a variation of this are scientists who seek to discover God through analysis of Pi or quantum mechanics to this day.

    By making pursuit of knowledge into something metaphysical, it gave it value and worth well beyond the practical(this is also visible in European alchemy). Note that the Greeks, who developed rationality and arguably had all of the basics needed for science, did not pursuit it because it was seen as abolishing the need for slaves. Christianity may have tolerated slavery, but did not advocate it, and therefore had no such compunctions.

  236. Sparkon says:
    @tamo

    The Dark Ages in Europe was MAINLY caused by the inability of ignorant and far less intelligent Germanic tribes to run the old empire after they sacked and took over the more advanced Roman Empire.

    No, I don’t think so.

    In truth, the so-called Dark Ages were caused by rather severe climate change known as the Dark Age Cold Period, which was brought about by the eruption of a volcano or volcanoes in 536 and again in 542. Ejecta from these eruptions created a dense veil of acidic dust and ash that blocked the sun’s radiation:

    An enormous volcanic eruption in the sixth century seems to have triggered catastrophic global cooling, perhaps precipitating famine, cultural conflict and plague across the planet.

    The theory offers an explanation for why historical records from the period make references to dimmer skies and a cooler climate. Documents from Ireland, for example, describe “a failure of bread” for a few years after 536 AD, and there are also accounts of summertime snow in China.

    The Byzantine historian Procopius wrote that in 536 “a most dread portent took place. For the sun gave forth its light without brightness… and it seemed exceedingly like the sun in eclipse, for the beams it shed were not clear.”

    Scientists have been studying evidence of this cold snap for more than 20 years. Tree rings from this time, for example, show that growth was slowed down by cold weather. The cause of these climate changes has been controversial. Now, however, it seems a volcano was to blame.

    https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080311/full/news.2008.665.html

    • Replies: @tamo
  237. @Daniel Chieh

    Money definitely a factor in your friend’s case. But I suspect his old research job wouldn’t take him any where. He probably wasn’t a research faculty at a university or a research institution.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  238. @attilathehen

    China isn’t a welfare state, majority Chinese people are still poor compare to the West. This means Chinese economy still has a lot of potential to grow and the aging population won’t be that much of a burden to the government budget as in the West and Japan.

    China still has a lot of problems need to be sorted out, but it is definitely on the right track. It won’t be great in foreseeable future if Europe and the US are not in the decay. Now with the big mess in the West, I believe in 30 years or less, China will a formidable power to reckon with.

  239. Talha says:
    @tamo

    The Islamic civilization was MUCH MUCH MORE advanced than the third-rate Europe.

    The rivalry between Islam and Christendom can, in certain respects, be seen as an extension of the ancient rivalry between the Greco-Romans (who went all in on Christianity and heavily influenced its development and culture) and the Persians (who went all in on Islam and heavily influenced its development and culture). Both those cultures had a very wide influence beyond their borders in their regions. The same way that the Greeks and Romans did much of the heavy lifting as far as science and math are concerned in Europe, most of the Islamic Golden Age in those categories belongs to the sophisticated Persians – the Arabs made a good showing, but are far outnumbered by Persian contributions (heck, the Persians even codified the Arabic language and grammar). This is sometimes obscured by the fact that Arabic was the lingua franca across the Muslim world and that many Persians had adopted Arabic names. Add on to that, the ability for communities from as far as Transoxiana to the Levant to the Iberian peninsula to communicate with each other in a single language and collaborate in science and technology (and having translated initial Greek works – as foundations to build upon – into Arabic) and you have the right mix for why Islamic civilization was advanced. Being close enough to borrow ideas from China and India was also extremely helpful. What do they say…location, location, location.

    Though Mr. Warner is an idiot and a Zionist tool, FKA Max makes some good points. There is little doubt that having lost many of the prized lands (like the fertile regions of Egypt, or the major intellectual centers like Damascus, etc.) made a significant difference in the ability of Europe to manage on its own without being able to rely on its Eastern wing.

    Another significant factor was that, with Pax Romana shattered, you basically had a house of cards with various Europeans fighting each other (as well as trying to defend from invasions from Muslims) – constant war not being very conducive to productivity in certain spheres like intellectual endeavors. Whereas on the other side, the expanding Islamic empire had established the opposite, a Pax Islamica within its very extensive borders (especially ending the centuries-old wars of rivalry between the Greeks and Persians). And though the Abbasid grip on power faded as early as the 11th century, it really wasn’t until the Mongol invasions that it was completely smashed.

    Anyways, I hope China does well, but I also hope she returns to some of her more traditional (pre-Mao) past since I am a fan of that culture.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
    , @tamo
    , @Anonymous
  240. @Daniel Chieh

    Thought so: political and cultural assimilation cannot change genetics, and therefore cannot change the phenotype. I mentioned those sweat glands because their absence is the only thing I know to be specific for the Han people. Very convenient for them, as they don’t need deodorant, unlike others.

    In fact, I guess I am more positive about Chinese than most non-Chinese commenters here. Two of my best post-docs, as well as my second-best grad student, were Chinese. In fact, two of these three spoke better English than most Chinese or French even after many years in the US, which in my book means high intelligence (arguably, the language is the most challenging thing we ever learn). The third one was from the South of China, and (according to my other Chinese post-doc) had equally heavy accent in Mandarin and English. One former post-doc is an Assistant Professor now in another University, the other is in industry. Former grad student (who will have 2-3 more papers/reviews/chapters from my lab) is now a post-doc in a good lab with a fair chance of getting an independent position later. She is interested in academia, which I approve of: I believe that the best place for creative, intelligent, and independent-minded scientists is academia, even though it does not pay as much as industry and does not have the same job security as government. I find the posts about lack of creativity among Chinese ridiculous: my personal experience says otherwise.

    Having come from the USSR, I hate hierarchy, and you get army-style hierarchy in industry and government: no matter who you are, there is a general above you. Not so in academia. If you are funded, even your department chair or dean is not your boss, just a colleague. However, all Chinese I ever met were in the US. A boon for the US, a loss for China.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  241. @ChineseMom

    He actually was – at Beida. However, this was some years ago, when China was really, really poor. Might be different now.

  242. FKA Max says: • Website
    @tamo

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Pirenne#Islam

    The Pirenne Thesis

    Read chapter “The Europe that Muslims Found” for some alternative/revisionist history:

    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1780&context=ccr Archived link: https://web.archive.org/web/20180829054753/https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1780&context=ccr

    http://www.unz.com/article/dysgenics-and-low-creativity-why-china-cant-save-civilization/#comment-2488731

    “In his Mohammed and Charlemagne, Henri Pirenne (of whom more later) devotes
    over 140 pages packed full of evidence to show that the economy, the arts and the sciences flourished under the Gothic kings, who employed their enormous wealth in the construction of brilliantly decorated residences and churches. By 500 AD, virtually all of the damage that had been done during the Invasions of the 5th century had been repaired, and cities flourished as they had under the old Imperial administration.”

    Henri Pirenne – Mohammed and Charlemagne

    • Replies: @Logan
    , @tamo
  243. @Daniel Chieh

    Daniel Chieh, I’m curious about your background, like where you were raised and educated. You certainly don’t sound like a mainland Chinese, I’ll say that.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  244. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Seraphim

    Not a big fan of the Roman Catholic Church, but their preservation of Roman eugenic practices indeed, in my opinion, saved civilization:

    Actually, utu, this is one of the few areas where this “kook” gives the Vatican/Rome high marks and praise. The Vatican/Rome is mainly responsible for the lower frequency/prevalence of low-activity MAOA in Europeans, South Americans, etc., in my opinion. [...] But otherwise Catholicism is much more eugenic and peaceful than Islam, since it forbids polygamy and cousin marriage.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2058848

    [MORE]

    https://www.unz.com/freed/fun-with-iq-deep-thought/#comment-2097090

    anyway, there is a direct link between ancient rome’s and medieval/modern northern europe’s cousin marriage avoidance. that link is quite obviously the catholic church which adopted all sorts of roman institutional structures and practices; but more specifically i’m referring to several of the church fathers, the earliest of whom lived in the roman empire itself and who, no doubt, were very aware of the roman avoidance of cousin marriage and very likely, having been raised “in rome,” had even internalized the idea as a natural and good one.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2058848

    This gave Europe and Europeans, in my opinion, an eugenic edge over the rest of the world:

    When Were Marriages Between Cousins Banned in China?

    https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2017/09/when-were-marriages-between-cousins-banned-in-china/

    In my previous blog post, How Degrees of Kinship Are Calculated Under Chinese Law?, it was mentioned that cousin marriage is banned by the People’s Republic of China (PRC) Marriage Law. In fact, the ban has not been there for very long: it officially appeared in the Law when it was revised in 1980.

    How Degrees of Kinship Are Calculated Under Chinese Law

    Therefore, under the PRC Marriage Law, siblings are considered second-degree relatives, because there are two degrees between each of them and the parent. First cousins are third-degree relatives, because there are three degrees between each of them and the common ancestor, the grandparent.

    Note that the degrees of kinship under Chinese law do not necessarily reflect the distance of a blood relation. Although the distance of blood relation between an individual and his or her first cousin is further than that with his or her uncle or aunt, the uncle or aunt is also third degree relative under the PRC Marriage Law

    Source: https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2017/08/how-degrees-of-kinship-are-calculated-under-chinese-law/

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @FKA Max
  245. @AnonFromTN

    In fact, I guess I am more positive about Chinese than most non-Chinese commenters here.

    That’s because you actually work with Chinese, and therefore have a much more realistic view both for ill and good. Unfortunately, most of the commentators here are pretty much rambling off in their own little world. Most unfortunately, some of their like are making decisions for the US government so…let’s just say that it won’t end well.

  246. @AnonFromTN

    That was one of your better comments, Russian-in-Tennessee, sounding almost like something off of Zerohedge, or an amalgamation of a few years of reading it. You are right – much of GDP is hot air, and it’s hard to sort out what’s not. “Services” of all kinds means lots of things. A bitter divorce (or on a bigger scale, a corporate buy-out) can result in 1000′s or 10′s of thousands of high-paid lawyer hours. That was lots of back-and-forth of letter-writing, threatening phone calls, and meetings. Did anything get made? Was wealth created? Nope. Those millions are part of the GDP, helping it “kick ass”! (Making GDP not a good indicator of quality of life.)

    See Peak Stupidity’s take on the huge Chinese DIY infrastructure (that America used to have) in China vs. America and the local hardware store, with a self-rebuttal.

    From the rebuttal there is this:

    … the Chinese culture DOES NOT RESPECT hand labor. A better way of saying that might be that the Chinese ladies (the hot ones, where it matters) value a money-grubbing social-climbing, I’ll-scratch-your-back type man over a simple honest hardworking hands-on guy. Because of that, Chinese men will aspire to be the former over the latter, which is a damn shame.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  247. @Talha

    Hey Talha, you’re back with your nonsense. First a reminder to new commentators, Talha is of Pakistani origin – Pakistan, Asian, average IQ 84, Muslim (Christian heresy).

    China is doing very well in one area. China is exterminating its Muslims. I like this. This is the best thing for China and then China will go back to its mediocre culture.

    Whether Bill Warner is a Zionist tool is not important. He tells the truth about Islam. I support Israel because that’s where Jews belong. I am not a Zionist tool. You’ll have to deal with Israel’s reality. 99% of Palestinians are Muslims with an average IQ of 84 so they cannot build up a prosperous country. They have the Gaza strip and Jordan – both shitholes. Leave them there. What is important is to set Israel’s boundaries.

    • Replies: @Talha
  248. @Daniel Chieh

    Daniel, I have worked with many Chinese men and women, mostly in academic environments. There is a different sort that have come over from the mainland in the last 10 years vs. the very best and brightest that came from Taiwan (and a very few from the mainland) in the 1980′s. I do know what I’m talking about and may have been in China longer than you (though I don’t know, but you do sound Americanized culture-wise).

    There are plenty that come to grad school in any field – even sociology (not Womyn’s Studies yet, praise the Lord) – to get that piece of paper. Most are not of the quality that I’d seen years back. There IS lots of cheating or just demanding to be spoon-fed (YES, graduate school!), maybe not much more than the Americans and dot-Indians on the latter.

    As I told the Russian in TN before, lots of Americans could do one hell of a job in the same fields, but don’t, due to the fact that the stipends are low* and it’s hard to raise a family on that (in the American style, that is). RIT doesn’t believe me because he came here in the early 1990′s. That kind of talking out one’s ass reminds me of the Godfree Roberts crowd, who have no idea that the US used to be the free-est country the world has/had ever seen. Just because you weren’t there doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

    Lastly, back to my point: As I wrote in Chinese Students at the American Universities, I believe the students themselves are not getting a good deal either. Reputations take a long time to make and often a long time to break. I think those pieces of paper they want will soon not be worth as much as they thought. American Universities need to be figuratively torn out at the roots and replanted.

    .
    .

    * Just like every other form of immigration, big supply with the same demand brings prices (aka wages for this labor) down.

    • Replies: @Vinegar18
  249. bucky says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Mongol invasion, and Manchu invasion, likely reduced the prestige of the celestials.

    The fact is that the Han Chinese were dominated by nomadic horsemen. This meant that over time, the more brave, you could say the more assertive, more intelligent, were killed off. That is what the whole pigtail thing is all about. It is a sign of submission to the Manchu. The Manchu slaughtered entire cities which refused to adopt this humiliating style.

    The meek survived. This might be the root of Chinese stagnation which is how the European powers were so easily able to dominate it.

    Following the Mongol invasion, the Japanese viewed the Chinese as lost and tarnished. They greatly admired the Tang dynasty and they modeled their society after it. After the Mongols defeated the Chinese, the Japanese no more admired the Chinese.

    I mean, invasion and domination is just the way of the world. The Norman invasion of Britain resulted in generations of deprivation for the defeated. The lower class accent in England is derived from the defeated peoples of the Norman invasion.

    Also the imperial examination was a means to dominate the Han Chinese. The ruling Manchus were not subject to this system.

    You can easily see the parallels to the current day, where Chinese are suing Harvard over admissions discrimination. This is their deeply embedded cultural trait.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  250. Logan says:
    @FKA Max

    What this comes down to is: Did western Europe go into steep civilizational decline in the late 400s or the mid 600s?

    For several decades it’s been fashionable to talk about “the continuity of late antiquity” rather than “the Fall of Rome.” This is of course revisionist history.

    Recently read a short but very interesting book. https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Rome-End-Civilization/dp/0192807285

    In it the author, I think, does a great job of disassembling the myth that Rome didn’t fall. It did, though at different times in different areas, and the depth of the fall also varied a great deal by place. What is now England, for instance, went waaayy down. Just about lost the ability to make pottery, for example. Writing completely disappeared.

    Also, if we’re going to blame the loss of civilization on raiders, we need to look farther than the Muslims. Magyars were raiding from the east, and they got as far as Spain. The Vikings raided from the north, and they got just about everywhere there was a coast or river. The Muslims raided from the south, and they got well up into what is now France and Italy, controlling many of the Alpine passes for most of the 10th century.

    I’ve sometimes thought it would be interesting to set a novel or movie in, say, Provence in the 940s. Muslim, Magyar and Norse raiders have a three-way set-to.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  251. Logan says:
    @FKA Max

    the economy, the arts and the sciences flourished under the Gothic kings, who employed their enormous wealth in the construction of brilliantly decorated residences and churches. By 500 AD, virtually all of the damage that had been done during the Invasions of the 5th century had been repaired, and cities flourished as they had under the old Imperial administration.

    Quite right, and all pretty much destroyed by 20 years of war launched by Justinian in an attempt to rebuilt the empire, and by the outbreak of bubonic plague named after him.

  252. @Daniel Chieh

    Of course, I work with Chinese. And many others. I judge people on their individual merits, regardless of race, gender, religion or lack thereof, or other things that have zero predictive value. I believe that’s the only scientifically sound approach.

  253. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    China is exterminating its Muslims. I like this.

    Good for you, you can have a cookie.

    He tells the truth about Islam.

    Anyone who states something as foolish as the Muslim conquests “annihilated” Damascus is either a moron or a liar, take your pick. And I love on all his charts he never covers the last 300 years of history when Christians were on the offensive all over the world, including all of the Muslim lands – convenient…

    But hey, if you like his style go for it. Why don’t give him some money while you’re at it if you appreciate his work so much? Here’s his snake oil shop:

    https://www.politicalislam.com/shop/

    C’mon, you know you want to purchase one of those bundles – c’mon…

    You’ll have to deal with Israel’s reality.

    As they will have to deal with the fact that Muslims have kicked out every invader into those lands…we have a solid track record. InshaAllah, time is on our side (10, 50, 500 years), Israel will eventually have to negotiate.

    I am not a Zionist tool.

    No, not a Zionist one anyways.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
    , @Anonymous
  254. @Achmed E. Newman

    Thanks for the links, they are interesting (although broken English does not help).

    Yes, the US GDP is a ruse, like the US dollar or the US treasuries. Lots of people believe in these things, though. The funniest thing is that the swindlers believe their own lies. That’s a sure sign of a dying Empire: the elites act even dumber than the average Joe.

    As to self-rebuttal, I had three Chinese ladies in the lab, and none of them showed signs of valuing “money-grubbing social-climbing” men. However, my sample is probably not representative: I work in science, so there is self-selection. All three Chinese ladies I worked with were well-educated, two of them quite intelligent. That would prevent them from being socially climbing sluts: a woman with a brain understands that money-grubbing men are likely to keep changing sluts for younger ones, so this mode of self-advancement is ultimately self-defeating.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  255. Buckwheat says:

    The day America stops buying Chinese cheap junk is the day they go back to being a 3rd world cesspool. Without thievery they would be like the African continent. Their inventive skills are limited to what they can beg borrow or steal from American and European countries. What have they invented since gunpowder or paper? Not much……….

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  256. @bucky

    The Yuan/Mongols lasted only three generations(ending in the 1300s) and Japan “admired” or more importantly continued to be heavily influenced by Chinese influence well into the Sengoku Period(1500s) so I don’t know where you’re getting that from. Miyamoto Musashi himself was friends with a Confucian scholar who was one of the Shogun’s top advisers.

    The Imperial Exam was started in Han era and therefore had nothing per se to do with Manchu(or humiliating the Han, obviously). The Manchus messed with the system to privilege themselves, but fundamentally they kept the Chinese forms.

    I’d say that Japanese frustrations with the Chinese probably came late Ming, due to Chinese interventions for Koreans which kept the Koreans from being defeated and ultimately forced the Japanese off Korea. It was one of the justifications for the later Sino-Japanese war.

  257. @Logan

    I think people often underestimate the dangers of interconnected worlds; Rome definitely fell and it can just be observed in the collapse of steel production. Previously, Rome imported metals which were centralized and forged with standardized procedures. With the collapse of the cities and imports, this rapidly meant a loss of knowledge. It would take hundreds of years to replicate the same level of metallurgy using poor quality iron and small local bloomeries. The barter system returned with the collapse of minting.

    If civilization collapsed now, for example, it’d be almost impossible to rebuild a computer mouse or even mass produce food by hand with local materials. Its one of the central fragilities of the modern world.

    • Agree: Talha, Logan
  258. @Buckwheat

    When is it going to happen, pray? The day after the Hell freezes over?

  259. @AnonFromTN

    It’s not broken English, though I do tend to write like I talk, more than in a manner of a research paper. I do need a proofreader, no doubt about it.

    I believe you that the very educated girls may have different personalities and appreciate a man for his brain. I think the culture also values education very highly, but that gets to my point. I’ve had guys from China and India in a lab who didn’t know how to use a screwdriver. I don’t care what your schooling level is, in that field you’ve got to be able to use your hands too. However, as my post from the 1st link said, I believe this is all changing.

    My personal experience with a number of people in/from China says that being a hands-on guy is NOT respected. This is a long-term cultural thing, that doesn’t correspond to the way American culture developed. Americans have always had respect for the guy who can get it done – hell, I have more respect for tree-guys than I ever did. That stuff scares the hell out of me, just watching.

    I didn’t really mention the social-climbing, as you put it. I’d probably have to write another comment on that to try to explain.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  260. tamo says:
    @Talha

    Thank you for the excellent reply.

    • Replies: @Talha
  261. tamo says:
    @Sparkon

    I stand by what I said. Climate change pr not, it’s rulers’ responsibility ( in this case, various Germanic tribal leaders) to insure the well- being of their respective domain.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  262. @Achmed E. Newman

    In that case I can give you the advice I’d give to the Saker: it helps to read what you wrote at least once. Written text, scientific or not, should not sound like a stream of consciousness (unless you are James Joyce writing Ulysses).

    As a matter of fact, I respect people who can do anything efficiently: electricians, plumbers, car mechanics, house painters, tree people, etc. What I despise is people who boast, but can’t do a thing, in science or in any other area. There are plenty of those, unfortunately, particularly in the US (American is a self-praise culture, much more so than European or Russian).

    • Replies: @Logan
    , @Achmed E. Newman
  263. Talha says:
    @tamo

    Most welcome. I’m enjoying your and Daniel’s (and AnonfromTN) insights as well.

    Learning a lot.

    Peace.

  264. tamo says:
    @attilathehen

    You are full of it. Your buddy Ricardo Dushii is nothing but a moronic, half-brained Eurocentric ideologue Asia / Africa ( Egypt) had EVERYTHING to do the development of less-intelligent inferior Europe from the ancient times to the Industrial Revolution. The pitiful Greek civilization copied a great deal from Egypt and Babylonia at it’s beginning and the Islamic and Chinese civilizations in later times.
    There is almost nothing original about the Greek civilization. It’s myth, religion, architecture, astronomy, mathematics were all copied from Egypt and Babylonia and also the Greek Alphabet was based on non-European Phoenician Alphabet. You say Japanese were most intelligent Asians !!! That’s not even a bad joke, my little man, lol Japan was almost a NONENTITY in the world stage until the late 19th century. Japanese culture is essentially an offshoot of Chinese culture. The Japanese written language is still heavily depends on the Chinese written language (kanji). Also overwhelming portion of the Japanese culture ORIGINATES from China. I’ll give you some examples for your benefit: Confucianism, tea ceremony,zen,etc. There is VERY LITTLE INDIGENOUS JAPANESE CULTURE if you subtract the Chinese input from it. Unlike Chinese who have a long history of creativity and ground-breaking original inventions, Japanese have almost always been followers and adopters and adapters. It’s the Euro-whites who face impending demise in both Europe (invasion by moslem refugees) and the disastrous demographic change in America where Euro-whites will be a MINORITY in the very near future. If Chinese Iq is 90, then the IQ of the Euro-whites should be 70, LOL !!!!

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  265. Sparkon says:
    @tamo

    Sorry, but standing by it doesn’t make it true.

    You provide neither counterargument nor citations, while I can provide plenty more to support what I’ve said. You can’t just ignore what you don’t like, nor pretend that Earth’s changing climate has no effect on humans.

    https://www.techtimes.com/articles/152351/20160423/two-massive-volcanic-eruptions-may-have-led-to-dark-ages-in-europe-and-beyond.htm

    Yours is argument by assertion: No citations; just hot air.

    • Replies: @tamo
  266. tamo says:
    @FKA Max

    Still the developments in Europe at this time is insignificant compared to the other parts of the old world.

  267. tamo says:
    @FKA Max

    I watched the video for a few minutes and stopped watching it because he sounds like a blooming idiot.

  268. tamo says:
    @Nawyr

    Yes, I spot the pattern. At the end, it’s Han Chinese who prevail like after the collapse of the Manchu Qing dynasty.

  269. @Eric Novak

    >The entire modern world was created by Europeans. What wealth did Issac Newton or Gauss or Tesla need for their genius? None.

    Are you dumb? The equivalent of no wealth would be a group of people waking up on a formerly deserted island.

    The car sitting in your garage at one point was nothing more than a bunch of dirt, plants, animals and rocks.

    Issac Newton, had numerous things and a lifestyle where other people grew his food, built his house, made his clothes, paid for his lab in Cambridge, numerous craftsmen built the equipment in his lab. Newton performed over 400+ chemistry experiments, had craftsman that built catapults, ramps, balls, pendulums, gears and pulleys to measure time various ramps made of various materials to discover friction. He had a lifestyle where he received good nutrition and health from childhood, received education, and had numerous colleagues that were equally educated he regularly traveled around to other universities to bounce around ideas and theories.

    The act of wealth creation is taking the dirt, plants, animals and rocks around us and turning that into things we want like swords, papers, to microchips and planes.

    Likewise the discovery of gunpowder by china, came from someone exploring a cave and finding a white powder (salt peter) and harvesting it, then someone finding pyrite (fools gold) and heating it to release the sulfur, and then creating charcoal from wood by heating the wood so that all the moisture is released but the wood is not burned. Then mixing these 3 ingredients in the right ratios to cause a explosion. Your civilization is not going to discover gunpowder without a lot of labor and free time.

    And this is why wealth is needed for scientific discovery, because it takes time, equipment and education. Newton didn’t wake up one day and through the magic of being white discover the gravitational constant. He dropped things and measured the time with pendulums, rolled balls down ramps, shot balls using mini catapults

    Having thanos greatly helps this process because your parents and your uncles, aunts and cousins dying means you now get all the gold they saved up, all their cows, all their jewelry etc… And now you suddenly have the wealth to quit your job as a farmer and lounge around all day or focus on your hobby of science

    • Replies: @Eric Novak
  270. @AnonFromTN

    >The great strength of China was always the size of the population

    Mixing up the chicken and the egg, China’s strength has always been a high genetic IQ.

    High IQ caused high population, advances in agricultural technology because of high IQ led to China’s massive population

    China’s massive population didn’t spring up out of thin air. Nor was China blessed with incredible farmland

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Anon
  271. @AnonFromTN

    >The tests are well known to people who tried to use them for decades as worthless. Every person who spent some time on college admissions committee knows that SAT scores have no predictive value

    Completely incorrect, SAT scores have some of the strongest predictive values. They don’t appear to correlate with GPA but only because they didn’t control for majors. When you do control for majors the correlation there and it is extremely strong.

    People with higher SAT scores tend to have higher odds of getting PHD, publish research articles, obtain patents, higher average incomes, tend to enter in STEM while lower SAT scores enter non STEM majors.

    Even when controlled for the same major and same school, students with higher SAT scores tend to do better in everything.

    Something like half of the perfect 800 math scores never took a prep class or prepped for the exam. The SAT doesn’t test much more than algebra, trigonometry and geometry and basic arithmetic many scientists could take it cold after decades of not being in school and get 800

    The SAT doesn’t require any studying, the ceiling for it is extremely low most of the people getting perfect scores are 130+ IQ who never did any preparation other than taking a couple of practice tests.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  272. @Talha

    Bill Warner is only stating what the pre-Vatican II RCC used to state about Islam. I don’t need to pay for his materials. The present day RCC is not doing its job and it will soon close. The Orthodox Church will be the new church for the West.

    Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand kicked out the Muslims.

    The Indians kicked out the Muslims and are in process of kicking the rest out right now.

    The Israelis kicked out the Muslims.

    The Chinese are exterminating their Muslims.

    Eastern Europe is cracking down on Muslims and will expel them.

    The only thing that time has shown in the past 500 years of Islamic takeovers is the consistent racial degeneration and lowering of Muslim IQs through miscegenation and interbreeding.

    Your time is up. Of course, you don’t realize this because you are incapable telling and understanding the concept of time. You can only quote the past.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Seraphim
    , @Logan
  273. @tamo

    tamo, you prove your IQ deficiency.

    First, the ancient Egyptians were Caucasians. Their DNA has been mapped. Many modern day English people have the same DNA. Many Caucasian Egyptians went to other parts of the world and became the Western, Caucasian, European people we know today. The ones who stayed mixed with blacks and this destroyed their intelligence. 90% of modern day Egyptians have black ancestry and the corresponding low IQ of 84. They are not related to the ancient Egyptians. Modern day Egypt is a shithole. Babylonia was a Caucasian population. The ancient world was Caucasian/Aryan, not black/Asian. The Phoenicians were Caucasians. There are only 3 racial groups: Caucasian/Asian/black. Ancient Egypt was Caucasian. The Greeks were a branch of the diaspora from ancient Egypt. So, again all Caucasian peoples who developed different civilizations from the original source.

    I know the Japanese are an offshoot of the Chinese. Look at present day Japan and China. Which country is better? The Japanese industrialized and Westernized in the 19th century. They have built a first world nation. China is still way behind them. China never was and never will be great again. The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians who have a democratic country.

    Let’s look at India. Present day Indians have an average IQ of 82. This is because the original Aryan Indians mixed with Asians and this destroyed their intelligence. The ancient Hindus (Aryans) created the Hindu religion. They created a great civilization. India today is a shithole.

    The modern world was created entirely by the West. This means Caucasians/Europeans. The East contributed nothing. The West is best. The West is not black/Asian/Jewish/Muslim.

    • Replies: @tamo
  274. AaronB says:

    I believe that China can and will save civilization. In fact I am counting on it.

    The West will collapse, and China will find itself suddenly top dog. It’s dream will come true. Then it will find that that’s kind of dull and lame and pointless, and not nearly as much fun as it thought it would be. Then China will collapse.

    Then China will return to its glorious Taoist past, and it will not take things seriously anymore. It will not care, gloriously and magnificently just not care. And China won’t produce dreary people like gmachine anymore.

    Then we can all have a good laugh at the absurdity of it all.

    Who’s with me on this glorious dream vision? Anyone? People?

    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @gmachine1729
  275. @Hbd investor

    Tribes in New Guinea had pulleys and gears and cows and shît in a hole outside just like Newton. Take your meds, kooky.

    • Replies: @Hbd investor
  276. tamo says:
    @Sparkon

    I think you are full of bullshit by saying that only climate change contributed the Dark Ages. In this particular case, I don’t need citations
    for my statements. There is the reason why this particular period is called the Dark Ages but not enlightened ages. This is because things regressed under the German leadership after their taking over the Roman Empire. The ultimate responsibility to safeguard the welfare of the ruled rested squarely on the leaders, in this case, the various German tribal leaders who took over more advanced Roman Empire. These Germanic leaders should have done better job of protecting their people from the ill-effects of the climate change. It’s you who is full of really super hot air.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  277. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    I don’t need to pay for his materials.

    Cheapskate.

    racial degeneration

    Muh racial purity.

    Your time is up.

    Yup, anytime now Germany or Italy are going to plant their flag on top of the Kaabah.

  278. @Hbd investor

    Yea, right. Looks like you never were around college admissions committee or even college, period.
    There are many studies questioning predictive value of SAT scores:

    https://www.vox.com/cards/sat/do-high-sat-scores-predict-better-performance-in-college

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/26/new-research-suggests-sat-under-or-overpredicts-first-year-grades-hundreds-thousands

    Some find that SAT scores only account for 10 to 20 percent of the variation in first-year college GPAs,

    https://blog.prepscholar.com/do-sat-scores-predict-success

    Not to mention recent “recalibration” that created a lot of confusion

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/new-sat-scores-sow-confusion-over-how-to-tell-a-good-result/2017/09/25/8732abce-a1f5-11e7-ade1-76d061d56efa_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.543b769f0665

    https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2017/09/25/new-sat-yields-higher-scores-but-dont.html

    But you are welcome to believe whatever you want. That’s freedom of religion, after all. Some people worship old guy with a beard, some the Sun, some test scores… There is no accounting for tastes.

    • Replies: @Hbd investor
  279. @Hbd investor

    That’s an interesting hypothesis. Especially considering that China had huge (by the standards of that time) population as early as ~2,200 years ago, probably even before that.

    • Replies: @Logan
  280. Sparkon says:
    @tamo

    Blah blah blah. You present nothing to support your case, nor to refute mine. Special pleading notwithstanding, your argument by assertion remains entirely unconvincing.

    • Replies: @tamo
  281. tamo says:
    @attilathehen

    You are full of it. There is a big debate going on whether the ancient Egyptians were caucasians. Some scholars say the ancient Egyptians were black. Just take a look at Spinx that has the Negroid facial feature. Babylonians ( ancestors of present day Arabs,lol !!) and Phoenicians might have been caucasians but NOT EUROPEANS.
    There were SEMITIC people related to your favorite people..the JEWS, lol !!! I guess even in the ancient times, the SEMITIC people including JEWS were A LOT SMARTER THAN DUMB HALF-BRAINED EUROPEANS, LOL !!!!
    Japan only overtook China in the late 19th century. Unlike the Chinese who have a long history of creativity and ground-breaking original inventions, Japan has almost always been follower and adopter and adapter.
    But there is a good chance China will overtake the U.S. in the size of economy in nominal exchange rate terms in 2026 ( China’s economy already overtook America’s in PPP terms) and RECLAIM it’s position as the technology superpower by 2040. For your information, Indo-Europeans NEVER created the ORIGINAL CIVILIZATIONS in the world. The Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Indus River Valley. Chinese Yellow River Vallley civilizations were all created by NON INDO-EUROPEANS. So you say Aryan invaders created Hindu religion in India. I hope you know that the Aryan-invented Hindu religion is the biggest impediment to the Indian development. Have you heard of caste syetem ? It seems to me your kind will be a MINORITY in the U.S. in the very near future because pretty soon, blacks and hispanics will be a majority in the U.S. Also it doesn’t look any better for your kind in Europe either considering Europe is facing the invasion by moslem refugees. Wow, this really makes me feel soooo good, lol !!! Hey go back to the degenerate STORMFRNT and AMERICAN RENAISSANCE for spewing out your ridiculous garbage.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @attilathehen
  282. AaronB says:
    @tamo

    Getting triggered by attilthehen – not a good look, tamo.

    Lao Tzu would not approve.

    • Replies: @tamo
  283. tamo says:
    @Sparkon

    You are nothing but a lazy guy. Instead of putting in your input, you just provide links to citations. A researcher can come up with any outcome he wants by tweaking his statistical models. Hey genius, prove to me the citations you provide is the results of unbiased and scientific statistical methods. You seem to be an agenda-driven bullshitter.

  284. tamo says:
    @AaronB

    I just LOVE to mess with the moronic Euro-white supremacists. I used to go to the AMERICAN RENAISSANCE and had it out with dummies there.

  285. @tamo

    Assuming you are Chinese, I hope you are in China and not the West. China needs you. Go back. You hate the Japanese because you know you are inferior to them.

    I know about the Aryan Hindu caste system. They were trying to protect their intelligence and genes. They could see that the Asians were inferior. It didn’t work out. Look at modern day India.

    There are only 3 racial groups: Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Negroid. The ancient Semites were Caucasians and are in the same group as Indo-Europeans. Modern day Jews are not related to the ancient Jews.

    Hispanics can be of any race and divide themselves accordingly.

    Here’s a simple test of intelligence: the darker the skin, the lower the IQ. Blacks/Asians have dark skin.

    • Replies: @tamo
    , @Logan
  286. Seraphim says:
    @attilathehen

    You can’t win with Talha. Although he doesn’t even understand the problems he is talking about, he never gives up, like the attention seeking children who interfere in adult’s conversations and get angry when they are not given the attention. He is immune to any contrary arguments, actually he rejects from the start any validity to your arguments. Anyone who tells the truth about Islam, who reminds him that we don’t live anymore in the time of his beloved Rashidun, is treated with the infantile ‘you are an idiot and a ‘Zionist tool’. Discussion closed.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  287. dux.ie says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The ignorance among East Asians and Westerners is that they are unaware that more than 40% modern Chinese are actually latent carriers of the recessive red hair gene, see

    https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs2228479

    “rs2228479, known as Val92Met or V92M, is one of several SNPs in the MC1R gene commonly associated with red (or blond) hair and poor tanning, but note its high presence in one Asian population [PMID 7581459, PMID 16463023]”

    where CHB is Beijing Chinese and CHD is ChineseAmerican in Denver. The source of that particular red hair gene is different from the common European red hair genes and it is traced to be originated in very ancient time from the Altai region on the north western China, it is not of European origin. However red hair gene is recessive, i.e. it will not be expressed in the presence of the dominant black hair genes. However if the latent carrier marries a westerner the admix children might have red hair, as in the CHD situation the percentage of those with genotype AA is 5.9% and may be 4% might have real red hair.

    • Replies: @Bucky
    , @Nawyr
  288. tamo says:
    @attilathehen

    Hey garbage spewer. you don’t know what race I belong to. For your information, I’m not Chinese. I might be Scandinavian or Irish or self-hating sorry -butt EURO-WHITE. You will never know my true identity, my little garbage man, LO L !!!!! I really don’t think Japanese are superior to Chinese when about 90% of the Japanese culture originates from China. But I think Japanese are superior to Euro-whites, lol !!! It’s the LESS INTELLIGENT light -skinned Aryans who conquered the Indus Valley civilization created by DARK-SKINNED NON- Aryan people. From that point on, with the introduction of the obnoxious Hindu caste system by the LESS INTELLIGENT Aryans, it was a steady downhill for the Indian civilization. It’s the Euro- whites who were VERY INFERIOR to ASIANS BEFORE THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION. Hey little man, your days are numbered. By the middle of century, Asians,specially Chinese will outperform the DYING-EURO WHITES. You just remember that by middle of the century, America will be a NON-EURO WHITE COUNTRY, lol !!!
    Ancient Semites might have been caucasian (some scholars claim the SEMITIC people mixed with the African Negroid people due to the geographical closeness between these two peoples). Sure, modern-day Jews( both Sephardi and more European Ashkenazic Jews) are related to their ancient Middle Eastern ancestors. Most hispanics are either mulattos or mestizos, your favorite people, lol !!!! Many hispanics who appear to be ” white”. have NEGROID genes if DNA test is taken. Any way you look at it, Americas WILL be a country in which blacks, mulattos, mestizos WILL BE A
    MAJORITY BY THE MIDDLE OF THIS CENTURY. You are screwed, my little garbage man, lol !!! In my experience, by and large, the East Asians as light as Euro-whites. Also the black Ibo people of Nigeria are SMARTER than many of EURO-WHITES.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  289. Seraphim says:
    @FKA Max

    What saved civilization (i.e. the Greco-Roman civilization from itself) was Christianity, which preserved most of the practices of the Greco-Romans.
    A phrase like “several of the church fathers, the earliest of whom lived in the roman empire itself were very aware of the roman avoidance of cousin marriage and very likely, having been raised “in rome,” had even internalized the idea as a natural and good one” is a bit misleading. All of the Church Fathers lived in the Roman Empire. All of them were Roman citizens, subjects to the Roman Law. Some were trained lawyers themselves. All of them were persons educated in the Greco-Roman schools. Marriage of first cousins were not prohibited, neither in Ancient Rome, nor under the Empire. The Church was more restrictive in regards to the degrees of consanguinity.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  290. Vinegar18 says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    You realised that the way you evaluate the Chinese is the same way that the mainland Chinese evaluate the incoming American of whom are mostly US reject English teachers. In a authoritarian country like China where permission is needed to move to another town, you will be very naive to think that China will allow the brightest to leave China. Taiwan is a different case as there are more freedom to travel.

    Furthermore in a poor country how many students are able to afford the hefty uni fees and living expenses if they are able to be admitted into the local universities. Most oversea Chinese undergraduate students in USA are rich slackers who cannot hack the competition back home and cannot enter the local universities. They just wanted a long oversea holidays out of sight of their parents.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  291. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    The Official Truth: Propaganda in the Roman Empire

    Other themes remained constant. Perhaps the most important of the latter was the idea that Rome represented peace, good government, and the rule of law. The societies with which Rome was in conflict were caricatured as barbaric, lawless and dangerous. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/romans/romanpropaganda_article_01.shtml

    I found an interesting article, which further confirms, in my opinion, that German tribes were not unsophisticated and uncivilized barbarians. Would barbarians practice this type of eugenics?

    Ancient Eugenics: Much more than just selective infanticide

    [MORE]

    The Spartans, however, were not the only culture focused on raising tall, strong warriors. The warrior society in Germania Transrhenane took a far different approach, though. Infanticide was repugnant to them. Instead, they chose positive reinforcement to accomplish their goals of a more formidable warrior society. They placed emphasis on stature and strength as traits for a suitable mate. Early marriage was forbidden to ensure only properly mature females were child bearers and celibacy was encouraged to limit the number of children. Polygamy was only allowed on a limited scale for the few of noble birth.

    This strategy was apparently so effective that during the Year of the Four Emperors it was assumed that anyone of exceptional stature was a Vitellianist and a German.

    Tacitus claims, though, that the Germans lacked moral strength because the children grew to manhood naked and uncared for with no distinction between master and slave.

    Tacitus says they were incapable of enduring hardships. “Their frames were huge but vigorous only for attack; their strength was great for sudden effort, but they could not endure wounds. Their courage was the frenzy of the Berserk, not the disciplined valour of the Spartan hoplite.” – Tacitus, Annals, ii. 14

    http://ancientimes.blogspot.com/2017/02/ancient-eugenics-much-more-than-just.html Archived link: https://web.archive.org/web/20180830064743/http://ancientimes.blogspot.com/2017/02/ancient-eugenics-much-more-than-just.html

    It is generally assumed that the tribes which overthrew Roman civilisation were a bunch of… well, barbarians. A new exhibition suggests that this is grossly unfair.

    The reason we have such difficulty grasping what happened to the Roman Empire in terms of continuity rather than disaster was because the Roman propagandists were very good. The word barbarian came from Greek, and Herodotus spelt out what was wrong with them. “Barbarians can neither think nor act rationally… barbarians are driven by evil spirits… which force them to commit terrible acts… Their lust for gold is immense, their love of drink boundless… They are given to gross personal hygiene [and] run dirty and barefoot… Their reproductive energy is inexhaustible.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/new-light-on-the-dark-ages-who-are-you-calling-barbaric-779158.html

  292. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    Thanks God, someone has finally found Needham. It might have been a very long search. His ‘Science and Civilisation in China’ is around since 1985 (and continued after). ‘The Shorter Science and Civilisation: An abridgement of Joseph Needham’s original text’ was issued between 1980- 1995.
    Or maybe not, probably a lot of the ‘I know better than you’ commentators where not even born. It is true that reading it requires a level of education above elementary school.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  293. m___ says:
    @FKA Max

    Interesting take, additionally, pointing to Race Realists, we have the impression, and this is disconnected slightly from the thought in your thread, that they quantify the distance in intelligence between races as far more important (not in numbers, that we will not contest) but as to their phenotype, compared to the “lucky score” of highly endowed individuals within these race groups.

    This is our way of pointing to the view that in Western societies, more as today in China, “talent” is selected out of the single most spot of importance, the elite of power and capital. It sounds un-intuitive for the power elites to have outliers do their thinking and implement it, but that with AI and for now big data searches could brake the general idiocy of power play. This seems to be better implemented by China these days, also the circle around Putin seems ahead in rational analysis incorporation, in the long term prospective allowance of policies and polities ahead. As a macro-view it makes these entities slightly stand out, regardlessly of their mean and average IQ of population.

  294. Anon[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Here we have the common tendency to absolutize relative entities.
    It is said “civilization” where it should be said “Western civilization”.
    Of course East Asians won’t be good torch-carriers of Western civilization.
    Just like the AngloSaxons have not been good torch-carriers of Middle-European civlization.
    Just like the Romans didn’t “continue” Greek civilization much.

    Therewith, it’s easy to realize how open-mindedness and freedom of mentation go together with higher personal stress and, well, openess to sorrow. If your mind is open, the first thing it is open to is sorrow (and, speaking of open-mindedness, a more open-minded article would have mentioned arts and philosophy beside technical/scientific innovation: they are, even, quite closely correlated with each other).

    So, yes, more creative/open-minded civilizations are also more open to stress and despair, and last less in temporal terms, and aren’t “continued” by heir civilizations.
    Civilizations follow the same courses individuals do. The freerer, the deeper, the more creative (and sorrowful, and sickly), the harder they are to endure, have followers, and “be continued”.

  295. Logan says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Yup. The size of the armies fighting in early China is quite amazing. Relatively small states coming up with armies in the hundreds of thousands.

  296. Logan says:
    @attilathehen

    There is a general skin color gradient across the subcontinent. Lighter in the north and west, darkening as you go south and east.

    If IQ correlates directly with skin color and/or “Aryan” ancestry, it should be relatively easy to demonstrate a similar distribution of average IQ.

    But I don’t think there is any such correspondence. In fact, I’ve seen claims that some of the south Indian states, such as Tamil Nadu, are considerably higher in IQ than northern states.

    But India is extremely weird compared to anywhere else due to their endogamy within relatively small caste groups going back thousands of years. Nothing like this anywhere else.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  297. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    As they will have to deal with the fact that Muslims have kicked out every invader into those lands…we have a solid track record. InshaAllah, time is on our side (10, 50, 500 years), Israel will eventually have to negotiate.

    God willing, you will bring them to keel.

    My only request is that could you please kindly let them import the rest of the Jewish diaspora before you start making their life too difficult? It’ll be very nice for Europeans and we will be very grateful.

    • Replies: @Talha
  298. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Hello Talha IQ 84*,

    Thanks for the history lesson. I had no idea the Persians were the driving force behind the Islamic golden age. It fits with my worldview as I’ve always found them to be very civilized people whereas Arabs are rascals.

    What exactly was the dynamic between Arabs and Persians? I understand that the Greeks did most of the inventing while the Romans did most of the conquering. Was it similar? And why did Shia Islam remain mostly confined to Iran if the Persians were so influential?

    Anyways, I hope China does well, but I also hope she returns to some of her more traditional (pre-Mao) past since I am a fan of that culture.

    Don’t worry. The diaspora is keeping it alive. Once material conditions stabilise, their culture will flourish again. They’re already protesting against chemical plants, which means they’ve attained a level of environmental awareness many long-running countries cannot match.

    *according to atillathehen

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  299. Logan says:
    @AnonFromTN

    One of my favorite sayings is from Will Rogers: We are all ignorant, just about different things.

    In my line of work I deal with a good many people who are experts in their fields, notably quite a few attorneys. I’m regularly amazed by how many of them think expertise in their field translates directly to expertise in mine, about which they are completely ignorant.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  300. @Logan

    Of course, there is no correlation between skin color and intelligence (BTW, IQ is not a measure of intelligence, no matter what the IQ sect believes). However, India is not a good place to do this kind of research: their inbreeding within the same caste in the same tribe (they have hundreds of tribes using more than a hundred languages and many alphabets) means that genetically speaking India is a conglomeration of small populations, rather than one large population with prevalent outbreeding, like China. Inbreeding has severe adverse consequences in plants and animals, including humans.

    In my experience, there are two main sources of racism in the US:
    1. White trash, which resents being trash, because it is white. They have nothing to be proud of, so take pride in their skin color by way of compensation.
    2. Prevailing entitlement mentality among American blacks (best described by “still waiting for forty acres and a mule” promised by Union General Sherman on January 16, 1865), which is the main reason for their remaining an underclass more than 150 years after the abolition of slavery. Just compare the achievements of African and Caribbean blacks in the US with those of locals: it’s day and night. Or compare the achievements of the descendants of Russian peasants who were freed in the same year, 1861, with those of American blacks.

    Affirmative action actually reinforces both, so it is no surprise that it failed miserably in its declared goals.

    The claim that skin color correlates with intelligence is as ridiculous as the claim that eye color, or hair color, or height, correlates with intelligence. All of these traits are encoded by different genes, and, in contrast to skin, eye, and hair color, or stature, we don’t even know what genes affect intelligence and how many there are.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  301. @Logan

    That explains the US politicians: Congress is full of lawyers, mostly failed ones, who are well-rounded people: they know nothing about everything. Pretty much like Bush Jr: dumb, ignorant, and proud of it.

  302. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    please kindly let them import the rest of the Jewish diaspora

    No problems there. The Muslim world has always been willing to absorb Jews being kicked out from Europe, I don’t see why we should stop now. I’m not one of those Muslims that wants to massacre the Jews in Israel or push them out to the sea or some inane nonsense like that. I’d rather go back to how it was before where Jews could freely travel and settle all over the Muslim world. The state of Israel is an unwelcome political entity in the region.

    Talha IQ 84

    Correction, she said average IQ of 84. And this seems rather accurate if you average what my estimate of my IQ happens to be and what my wife thinks it is. ;)

    It fits with my worldview as I’ve always found them to be very civilized people whereas Arabs are rascals.

    The Persians sit at the crossroads of the worlds. They have helped to civilize every people that have come into contact with them (and even conquered them) whether it be Arabs, Mongols, Turks, etc.

    The Arabs were semi-nomadic people. The particular good qualities they had were; they had a culture based on honor, they were very sincere, they were simple and had few delusions about themselves, they were very, very tough. They were great as the foundation people for our religion (simple, pious, ascetic) and they simply passed the torch along to others who further developed it.

    What exactly was the dynamic between Arabs and Persians?

    As I said, the Arabs basically passed on the foundations of Islam to the Persians and others. The Persians took it further including development of theology (especially that which could respond to the Greek philosophers) and well as laying down the principles of jurisprudence (for instance, the widest adopted Sunni school of law is the Hanafi – founded by a Persian scholar Imam Abu Hanifah [ra]). This describes the phenomena well:
    “But the universality of the Persian contribution to all facets of Islamic learning must be kept in mind in any study of the relationship between Persia and Islamic civilization. The extensive efforts of Persian scholars in helping to lay the foundations of so many of the Islamic sciences during the early period continued with the same force into the Saljuq and Timurid periods. So many of the works of this later period which are standard texts in Muslim madrassas, both Sunni and Shi’i, works of such men as Ghazzali, Fakhr al-Din Razi, Zamakhshari, Baidawi, Nasir al-Din al-Tusi, Taftazani, Sayyid Sharif Jurjani and Jalal al-Din al-Dawani, to cite just a few of the better known names, are connected with the Persian world. Ghazzali alone would be sufficient to underline the significance of the contribution of Persia to Islamic civilization…all that we identify with classical, orthodox Islam in both its Sunni and Shi’i aspects would be unimaginable in its existing historical form without extensive efforts of Persians scholars, who worked along with Arab scholars in creating that vast world of Islamic learning to which other peoples also became subsequent heirs and contributors. For this reason, the role of Persia in the elaboration of Islamic civilization and the Islamic sciences has remained central throughout history.”
    The Cambridge History of Iran, Volume 4

    “Nobody did for Islam what the Persians did. Nobody.”

    Also, within a relatively short time, the Persians basically took control of politics and administration; the Abbasid revolt was basically a revolt of many of the Persian mawali under an Arab veneer against the Arab-supremacist Ummayyads…(Persian) Empire Strikes Back of sorts.

    The Arabs of Arabia pretty much stayed the same (from a development index) until they hit oil. Even the Arabs that contributed to scientific development and such come from civilization centers in Persia, the Levant, Egypt, Spain, etc.

    And Arabs definitely did most of the initial conquering – going all the way into Spain and parts of India and Central Asia. But Persians were absorbed into the mix since very early on, including governors and Persian divisions (including the elite Asawira horse-archers) that defected to the Muslim side. By the time the Abbasids roll around, the Persians are fully integrated into the army. The best books on this subject (tactics, weapons, strategy, etc.) are written by military historian David Nicolle:

    https://www.amazon.com/Islamic-Conquests-632-750-Essential-Histories/dp/1846032733

    And why did Shia Islam remain mostly confined to Iran if the Persians were so influential?

    For the majority of its history, Iran was mostly Sunni (it was the center of the Abbasid Caliphate) and following the Shafi’i school. Shiah Islam became dominant through coercive state power starting with the reign of the Safavids. So the most influential Muslim Persians (whether religious scholars, scientists, poets, etc.) were mostly Sunni – though some Shiahs definitely make a showing like Nasir al-Din Tusi.

    Don’t worry. The diaspora is keeping it alive. Once material conditions stabilise, their culture will flourish again.

    This is great news. I hope to see this within my lifetime. A China that melds the wisdom from its traditional past is a welcome contributor to the world that I hope my great-grandchildren inherit. InshaAllah, China’s successes will benefit us all.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Logan
  303. Talha says:
    @Talha

    My God – I cannot believe I did not mention their massive contribution to spirituality in the form of Sufism, practically all of the chains of the current Sufi orders go through the Persians. I believe this is mentioned in that video though.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  304. @Vinegar18

    Re: your 1st paragraph, as authoritarian as the country was back in the 1980′s, they did indeed send their best, for 3 reasons:

    1) Don’t think I’m accusing every Chinaman (or woman), people, but there were some spies in the midst. I don’t necessarily mean all defense-related spies, but your industrial spies that came for technology were damns sure gonna be bright guys that can understand the high-level stuff.

    2) The US did have the best Universities in the world a few decades back (the time period I’m talking about*). There’s no way the Chinese would have wasted the fairly-few opportunities on people who were not the academic best.

    3) Just for pride alone. Are you going to send a few thousand retards as representatives of you country?

    Secondly, the authoritarianism you write of has not been the case over the last 15-20 years (time of the huge influx of Chinese students through now)

    Your 2nd paragraph is right on the money. That’s the situation today – if you read my post that I linked to above for Mr. Tennessee, you’ll see I’m quite up on the situation.

    * personal experience

  305. @Eric Novak

    >Tribes in New Guinea had pulleys and gears and cows

    Source

  306. @AnonFromTN

    I found one more typo yesterday when I read over it, but it reads fine otherwise. Number of visits is going up monthly.

    Written text, scientific or not, should not sound like a stream of consciousness.

    I believe you’re thinking of the beat poets as described in 10,003 Maniacs.

    Run-on sentences are my problem. I just cut the previous one off to help myself work on this. At least we don’t write 3″ thick books like the Russians. I can’t even get through the Cliff-notes on some of those guys – War, What is it Good For: Absolutely Nothin’, I mean WFT, man?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  307. @Jeff Stryker

    We Yankee whites have our own heritage.

    Yes, one of cuckoldry and fanatical stupidity. See Quakers and Shakers.

    “Cracker”

    Partly because I’m lazy and partly because I just don’t give a shit, I’ll quite fakipedia:

    Cracker, sometimes white cracker or “cracka”, is a colloquial term for white people,[1] used especially for poor rural whites in the Southern United States. It is also at times used indiscriminately and pejoratively against any person of white background. However, it is sometimes used in a neutral or positive context or self-descriptively with pride in reference to a native of Florida or Georgia (see Florida cracker and Georgia cracker).[2]

    In my decade living in South Florida, some of the best folks I met were crackers. I embrace the term much more than I embrace my familial lineage to circus freak Quakers. Crackers take no shit from anybody. A cracker will take on a 1,000lb alligator single-handedly, a Quaker will offer his daughters up to African savages in atonement.

    You go ahead and be a Quaker, I’ll stick with being a cracker.

    • Replies: @Truth
  308. @AnonFromTN

    1. White trash, which resents being trash, because it is white. They have nothing to be proud of, so take pride in their skin color by way of compensation.

    Absolute bullshit. You aren’t an American, and you don’t seem to understand anything that may have happened before you arrived. Hell, you provided much of the answer yourself:

    Affirmative action actually reinforces both, so it is no surprise that it failed miserably in its declared goals.

    Lower class white people have been getting burned in their schools, jobs, freedom, etc. for 5 decades now, as AA means they are purposefully discriminated against by governments at all levels and, more recently, Big-Biz. The Lyin’ Press treats them like scum, and yes, many are too dumb or lazy to do so much as kill the cable and search out news besides Yahoo and the local TV station’s website.

    When/where I grew up, there were plenty of blacks. Whites may have made lots of jokes (just as blacks did), and things were not in general integrated at the social level, but they got along one hell of a lot better than now. Most whites were not racist in any way that would cause harm to blacks. Yeah, there were plenty of names and other terminology.

    Many whites, rich or poor, have been getting more racist over the last few years for the reasons I described.

    I don’t write about growing up in the Ural mountains and my parents getting caught in the midst of the Russian Civil War and the October Revolution*. I don’t think you should write about Americans that you know squat-all about.

    * yes, I did watch Dr. Zhivago. Why do you ask?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  309. @AnonFromTN

    I have already addressed this, none of your linked studies control for major or institution

    A genius that scores high on the sat is more likely to major in engineering in mit and graduate with a gpa under 2.4

    While a 80 iq black attending community college in business graduates with a 4.4.0

    This is why there is no correlation between sat and gpa

    Different schools and different majors have different grading standards

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  310. @Achmed E. Newman

    The elites hope that sheeple have attention span of no more than 30 seconds. That helps them change narratives to the opposite, using “newspeak”, and sheeple sincerely believe that war is peace. 3” thick books are for those with longer attention span. The people with brains and memory are the natural enemies of the elites and their lying MSM. Ask yourself, where do you stand in this divide?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @Logan
  311. @AnonFromTN

    I know you can’t keep up with every commenter and his brother here on unz, but I’ve stated multiple times* that I’ve been off the Lyin’ Press for years now. (Sorry, you still call it the MSM – get with the times, geeezz!). I agree with your 2nd-to-last sentence completely, but 3″ thick novels? Nah, that’s a big distraction. One can learn a lot from experience in this world, don’t you think?
    .
    .

    * For references, see material with the TV, aka Gov’t Media topic key. (Scroll down.) I believe we are on the same page on this.

  312. @Achmed E. Newman

    Yes, I did not grow up here. However, you’d be surprised how many similarities there are between dying Soviet and American Empires. Makes me sad: I did not move halfway across the globe to witness the death of yet another Empire.

    I know quite a bit about Americans now, after all these years. Besides, I drove through 40+ states, which very few locals do, visiting many gas stations, eateries, and hotels in the boonies. It is true that I don’t know what was here before 1991, except from books. But I do know what white trash is, I have white trash café right next to my house. Many of these people are poor not because they are oppressed (although their stupidity is certainly taken advantage of by the elites), but because they are lazy, often with the same entitlement mentality as blacks. This mentality would drag down anyone, regardless of color.

    Even now there is not much racism as such, at least among educated Americans. Our black grad students from Africa or Caribbean do well, as well as a few American blacks that don’t have entitlement mentality. But there are others that simply game the system. I agree that AA is a catastrophic failure and promotes racism more than anything. In fact, AA is blatantly racist.

    I agree that most negro jokes among whites (as well as white jokes among blacks) harm no one, just like Jewish jokes in Russia (actually, these jokes in Russia are best told by the Jews, with characteristic accent and mannerisms).

    However, real racism is bad for the society, black racism is no better than white racism. I believe that everything that promotes either should be eliminated, including AA.

    P.S. Speaking of Dr. Zhivago, this novel is nowhere near the top of Russian literature. Pasternak was a good poet, but pretty bad writer. He should not have attempted a novel, it’s not his thing. Besides, the movie was made by people ridiculously ignorant about Russian realities.

  313. @Hbd investor

    You are right about GPA: 4.0 at the Shithole Community College and many four-year colleges in the boondocks is often less than 2.2 at a good school. Not to mention that a grade in “Women’s studies” or “Beaches of the United States” is not the same as a grade in math, quantum physics, or biochemistry. There are many colleges where if you can read and write, it’s an A, and if you can count to ten in addition to that, it’s an A+. That’s what I always pointed out at our admissions committee meetings.

    However, SAT score does not predict success in college, just like GRE does not predict the success in grad school. We simply don’t have tools to measure real intelligence and predict the success, so we are clutching at straws of these tests. This is understandable, but believing that test scores mean what you claim is ridiculous.

    • Replies: @Hbd investor
  314. More on Chinese creativity: the first home-built Chinese aircraft carrier successfully went through the second round of sea tests ( the report on the beginning of those tests is here: https://www.npr.org/2018/08/28/642493101/chinas-newest-aircraft-carrier-type-001a-reportedly-begins-sea-trials).
    Intensification of Imperial hysterics is anticipated.

  315. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Seraphim

    Thank you for your feedback.

    Have you seen this paper?

    Close-Kin Marriage in Roman Society?
    Brent D. Shaw and Richard P. Saller
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/2802181 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#Ancient_Rome
    Contrary to the recent suggestion of Professor J. Goody, there is strong evidence for continuity of the general practice of exogamy in the western Roman empire from the pre-Christian period (first three centuries after Christ) to the era of the establishment of Christianity as the state religion. [...] Consequently, the Christian ban on marriages within the sixth degree of kinship had little impact.

    st. augustine on outbreeding

    We have also found that, for moral reasons, marriages between cousins are rare even in our own times, because, even though such marriages are permitted by law, the degree of kinship involved in them is only one step away from that of brother and sister. Such marriages were not prohibited by divine Law, and they have not yet been forbidden by human law either;[82] but abhorrence was felt for an act which, though lawful, bordered on the unlawful because marriage with a cousin seemed to be almost the same as marriage with a sister. For cousins are called brothers and sisters even among themselves, because of the closeness of their blood relationship, which is almost that of full brothers and sisters.”
    [...]
    ““[82] Marriage between cousins was, in fact, prohibited by the Emperor Theodosius I (see Ps. – Aurelius Victor, ‘Epitome de caesaribus’, 48; Ambrose, ‘Epist.’ 60,5. This is a fact that Augustine seems to remember in the next paragraph. See also Plutarch, ‘Quaest. Rom.’, 108″https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2015/01/12/st-augustine-on-outbreeding/ Archived link: http://archive.is/lLRsq

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  316. @tamo

    OK. If you’re not Asian, then you’re Caucasian. So you, once again, prove my point about the degenerate Western male who gets involved with APP or is some insane SJW.

    So if you are Western and do not like Westerners (who are not black/Asian/Jewish/Muslim), you can move to Asia or Africa. Then, like Derbyshire, you do not have to deal with Caucasians/Europeans, whom you insanely believe are inferior to blacks/Asians.

    • Replies: @tamo
  317. @Seraphim

    I posted a response to Talha, but Unz Review did not publish it.

    It’s not that I can’t win with Talha, it’s that he is a loser to begin with.

    He is Pakistani (Asian), from a country with an average IQ of 84. He is Muslim, thus a Christian heretic.

    You are correct in stating he is childish. This is typical of black/Asian males. Their anger is increased when a Caucasian Christian woman, like me, challenges them. Not only are they not equal to Caucasian males, but they are not equal to Caucasian females.

    I tell him that Islam is a Christian heresy. This is something that all churches used to teach. You will not hear this any more. The pre-Vatican RCC used to teach this. Today’s RCC has been taken over by homos and they like Islam because of its sexual degeneracy. The only reason Muslims kill gays is because the gay did not get a fatwa from his mullah. Every mullah is a pope and can give permission for many kinds of degenerate and immoral behavior. The Bacha Bazi boys of Afghanistan are a perfect example. When our troops (who are mostly Christian) came across this immorality they were in shock. And it was worse when they found out this is typical of Muslim Afghan culture. Christianity does not in any way permit this kind of behavior. Islam is a relativistic faith, and the only time it deals in absolutes is when it condones immoral behavior and killing apostates.

    Again, as I have consistently pointed out, it is the Caucasian RCC/Zioevangizer male who is the root of the problem. They will not state Islam is a Christian heresy. They will not state that modern day Jews are not the chosen.

    I will state this. And this what enrages Talha, because a woman is stating the truth.

    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @Bucky
  318. tamo says:
    @attilathehen

    Hey dummy, keep on guessing LOL !!!!

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  319. Bucky says:
    @dux.ie

    That is fascinating.

    I’ve noticed too this reddish trait among mixed orientals.

  320. Bucky says:
    @attilathehen

    Bacha Bazi is a result of extreme sex segregation. Which is the thing about homosexuality: it really arises due to cultural influences and structures.

    Islam isn’t a Christian heresy. Mormonism is a Christian heresy. A heretic has to have at one point been a practitioner.

    Islam is simply a separate order and belief system. That is why there is a respect for Islam among many in the West, because they see it as totally alien to them so they see it from the outside. Mormonism in contrast is often ridiculed, quite unfairly.

    This insider/outsider dynamic really means that keeping separate spheres is most prudent, because too much mixing and disputes become worse when there is an element of otherness to the dispute. Most people fight within their families because they only choose to associate with their families. Force them together with strangers and disputes become far worse and violent. That is why terrorism is so much worse, and why we really do need to limit the number of Muslims in the West.

  321. @tamo

    You’re Tweedledum to Talha’s Tweedledee.

    • Replies: @tamo
  322. @Bucky

    When a mullah or iman preaches that Jesus was not the Son of God and states this about Mary:

    http://www.wnd.com/2017/01/cleric-muhammed-will-marry-virgin-mary-in-heaven/?cat_orig=faith

    he is preaching a heresy.

    Anyone who “respects” Islam is a cuck and will not state to a Muslim that what he believes about Jesus is wrong and heretical and that as Christian he has the right to state this. I’ve told Muslims in my area this.

    I’ve been to the Middle East. The Muslims are the most evil, stupid and degenerate people I’ve come across.

    I’ve met Mormons. They are very nice. They did not try to convert me because I would have proven their belief system wrong. But, they were white and were not a danger. I start with biology first, then beliefs. I will not have anything to do with blacks/Asians unless it is necessary. I don’t care what they believe as long as they are not in West or completely segregated. As for Caucasians, as they long as they are some kind of Christian or European pagan, I have no problem with them. If a Westerner has “converted” to Islam, they must be told that they must revert or be expelled from the West.

    • Replies: @Bucky
  323. tamo says:
    @attilathehen

    The same to you, boy lol !!!

    • Replies: @dcite
  324. Bucky says:
    @attilathehen

    I don’t disagree with you, but just have to say that I’ve seen black ghettos in America and those people are the worst people on the planet, and there is an entire continent of them which will be bulging in population over the next hundred years. Muslims at least in America can merge into the upper middle class, which provides some hope.

    Travelers to Africa actually come to appreciate Islam because at least it provides some semblance of order. The real struggle in life is disorder vs order, not any bullshit like communism vs capitalism. And Africans represent disorder at its most primordial.

  325. @Bucky

    If you think that Mormon faith is ridiculed by Christians unfairly, I suggest you go to any hotel in Utah. In each room they have Gideon’s Bible and a Book of Mormon. Just read the latter. I found it fascinating before getting bored to death: it is a long and very angry parody on the Bible, even though they just meant to parrot its style.

    • Replies: @Bucky
  326. Bucky says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I’m beyond caring about the text.

    Mormons are a highly functional and prosperous people. That is what matters to me.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  327. joe webb says:

    speculation only….
    Subject: Murray’s book, Human Accomplishment, and the Chinese.

    Charles Murray takes a good longish look at what the Chinese did accomplish in the late Middle Ages of the West. It is impressive inasmuch as they were substantially ahead of the West, at least technically, if not scientifically. ( China invented locks for canals about 200 years before Europe, and then there was gunpowder, and a couple other things.)

    Genetics Department. In very broad strokes, the only thing I can do without a lot of study, the Chinese, and probably other north Asian races that we know are as smart and maybe smarter than Whites (but one-dimensionally), the Chinese as well as the Japanese and Koreans, are probably much more genetically alike or similar to their racial cohort than are Whites.

    Genetic Similarity amongst any particular race is taken for granted by most White folks who think about it. However, the degree of similarity is not addressed. This will change as more and more science comes along but right now it is probably limited by the newness of genetic testing generally, and particularly of personality testing.

    Intelligence testing is relatively straightforward, but personality testing is not, at least with regard to the amount of testing that is required.

    Taking the recent Chinese government’s decision to track every individual Chinese person’s opinions, etc. in order to police thought/speech, is only the latest news on Chinese conformism. Also, the recent news about the President-for-Life status of the chief chink confirms the thesis that the Chinese are without the psychological niceties of Whites who have notions like free speech, etc.

    Genetics folks in the West are now able to measure genetic dissimilarity amongst various White countries. They can measure “genetic distance” of particular White country’s people from one another, like England compared to Denmark. And so on, like Europeans compared to other races.

    My guess is that the genetic similarity of, say Chinese , is far more similar then for Whites. And I would bet that Japan and Korea are pretty much the same as the Chinese, both within their own national cohort as well as the north Asian countries like Korea and Japan.

    Whites have arguably more genetic dissimilarity within their own racial cohort than north Asians. Think about the Hajanal line in Eastern Europe, the Turkish occupation of the Balkans for over 400 years, the Mongol invasions of Europe, the Arab occupation of Spain for several hundred years, the invasions of Europe by Genghis Kahn and Attila and so on. (So far, with the Arab invasions of Europe, there does not seem to be any significant inter-marriage with Europeans. So far.)

    Whites also have their genetic propensity to Think for Themselves, or extreme Individualism. Whites are very good/bad at
    “thimking” as a comic locution put it a while back. “Man thinks, God laughs” as some East European writer put it a while back (Milan Kundera?).

    No other race goes for race mixing. Only Whites Thimking go for this lunacy.

    So, Whites are well known for our Individualism, as compared to other races. We Thimk, God laughs. Other races don’t Thimk, they just do what they are told.

    They will still be around after Whites Thimk ourselves into oblivion .

    Joe Webb

    • Replies: @tamo
  328. I think Chinese people are very creative. We invented compass, gunpowder, papermaking and printing. Today, our mobile payment is leading the world. TSMC is the leading factory for mobile chip manufacturer — currently, it is the only one with 7 nm chip manufacturing capacity in the world. (Despite self-governance, Taiwan is a province of China.) Huawei is so creative that getting banned in USA and Australia.

    The only difference with the west is we are not expansionist. When you hear USA and Australia, you think about white people. That’s wrong in the most time in history. The real Americans and Australians have already been committed genocide. Their great civilizations have already died. Sadly, they can’t be saved.

  329. @AnonFromTN

    When you control by major and school quality

    Sat score vs patents, phd attainment and research publications

    When you look at the science the sat is indeed measuring intelligence, the sat has no predictability is propaganda pushed using cherry picked studies with horrible controls and other confounds with the goal of getting rid of the sat because the test be racist

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  330. dcite says:
    @tamo

    Also the black Ibo people of Nigeria are SMARTER than many of EURO-WHITES.

    Many? What is “many”? What kind of “EURO-WHITES?” Albanians? the Irish kind? Nebraskans? These Ibos, Will they make Baltimore great again??
    My parents and grandparents could walk the streets of Baltimore safely at night back in the 50s.

    btw, don’t you bellow into a loudspeaker at the Gallery Place Metro Stop in D.C. for hours on end?

    • Replies: @tamo
  331. @Bucky

    I know American black ghettos are the worst places in the USA, but Muslims will not integrate. Most Muslims are black/Asians. Biology first, beliefs second. Muslims have to go back.

    • Replies: @Bucky
  332. Truth says:
    @Stan d Mute

    . A cracker will take on a 1,000lb alligator single-handedly, a Quaker will offer his daughters up to African savages in atonement.

    LOL, Now there’s a slight generalization…

    https://deadspin.com/5341946/father-chooses-alabama-football-player-over-his-own-daughter-in-lovers-quarrel

  333. Seraphim says:
    @Bucky

    This is correct. Islam is a ‘heresy’ but not a ‘Christian’ heresy.

    St. John of Damascus, a great Father of the Church (8th Century AD) wrote about Islam in a treatise called “Heresies in Epitome: How They Began and Whence They Drew Their Origin” (he describes all Christian heresies of his time):

    “There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites. They are also called Saracens, which is derived from Sarras kenoi, or destitute of Sara, because of what Agar said to the angel: ‘Sara hath sent me away destitute.’ These used to be idolaters and worshiped the morning star and Aphrodite, whom in their own language they called Khabár, which means great. And so down to the time of Heraclius they were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his OWN HERESY. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration”.
    It is, if you want, a heresy of the idolatrous cult of the Arabs. The anti-Christian part of the new heresy was the influence of Judaism on Mohammed. Actually it is rather ‘Judaism’ that is a Christian heresy

  334. Truth says:
    @Bucky

    Travelers to Africa actually come to appreciate Islam because at least it provides some semblance of order.

    Oh yeah, this is exactly what I’ve heard every traveler to Africa say.

  335. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    I’d rather go back to how it was before where Jews could freely travel and settle all over the Muslim world. The state of Israel is an unwelcome political entity in the region.

    I’ll be extremely impressed if you are able to assimilate the Ashkenazis without incurring harm. They have always been sociopathic shapeshifting parasites in Christendom. Are they even from Muslims lands originally? I really have no idea.

    The Arabs of Arabia pretty much stayed the same (from a development index) until they hit oil. Even the Arabs that contributed to scientific development and such come from civilization centers in Persia, the Levant, Egypt, Spain, etc.

    From a human development point of view, I’m not sure the oil has helped much. Arabs are still coarse and unrefined. Even when they are rich, they have no taste!

    Thanks for the video btw. It serves to reaffirm your point that Persia was really the center of Islamic culture. I had no idea about this since the modern view seems to be that Islam is an extension of Arabic culture, and Persians are ‘less true’ Muslims on account of their sect.

    For the majority of its history, Iran was mostly Sunni (it was the center of the Abbasid Caliphate) and following the Shafi’i school. Shiah Islam became dominant through coercive state power starting with the reign of the Safavids.

    According to wikipedia, the Safavid dynasty started around 500 years ago. That’s well after Islam had solidified, and about the same time the British monarchy also spun off their own sect of Christianity.

    Is there any movement in Persia to revert to Sunni Islam?

    My God – I cannot believe I did not mention their massive contribution to spirituality in the form of Sufism, practically all of the chains of the current Sufi orders go through the Persians. I believe this is mentioned in that video though.

    This is interesting. In my view, Sufi is the branch of Islam that really ‘gets it’. It’s the branch that moves beyond fundamentalism and into direct experience of the divine. It makes sense something so civilized came from Persia and it also makes me wonder if Persia’s proximity to India had any bearing. India has been the spiritual heart and religious incubator of the world for many millenia and Sufi is very reminiscent of their direct approach to enlightenment.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Talha
  336. Logan says:
    @attilathehen

    lowering of Muslim IQs through miscegenation and interbreeding.

    You do realize that these two are opposites?

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  337. Finally someone agrees with me. I’ve always been skeptical of this idea that Peterson promotes that women are responsible for sexual selection. I think it’s bullshit, men and families as you say did the selecting, not women.

  338. Logan says:
    @Talha

    The Arabs were semi-nomadic people.

    Mohammed and all the leaders of the Arabs were town-dwellers, not nomads.

    The Bedouin made up a large part of their armies, but were seldom if ever among the leaders.

    • Replies: @Talha
  339. Logan says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The LP is dying.

    One of the things replacing it is long-form media on YouTube and podcasts. Joe Rogan holds discussions lasting two hours or longer. His podcast downloads for many of the shows are a significant multiple of those watching CNN.

    That’s just one example.

  340. Nawyr says:
    @dux.ie

    That gene is of European origin. It comes from European Neanderthals.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/06/neandertal-origin-of-mc1r-haplotypes.html

    The red hair gene isn’t recessive, either. No hair color is recessive. Hair color is a polygenic trait and as you say, Chinese have more black hair genes (not dominant) than red hair genes. That is the reason they have black hair (not because red hair is recessive, as so many ignorants on the interwebs apparently believe.)

    • Replies: @dux.ie
  341. Nawyr says:

    Whites have arguably more genetic dissimilarity within their own racial cohort than north Asians. Think about the Hajanal line in Eastern Europe, the Turkish occupation of the Balkans for over 400 years, the Mongol invasions of Europe, the Arab occupation of Spain for several hundred years, the invasions of Europe by Genghis Kahn and Attila and so on. (So far, with the Arab invasions of Europe, there does not seem to be any significant inter-marriage with Europeans. So far.)

    You are clearly unaware of the forensic genetic evidence collected by South Korean and Mongolian scientists from a Mongolian necropolis which proves that the Borjigin Mongols who invaded Europe were genaologically Western European. Genghis Khan himself was fully white.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0161622

    Although many regard the portrait at the National Palace Museum in Taipei, Taiwan, as the depiction most closely resembles Genghis Khan, all existing portraits, including this one, are essentially arbitrary interpretations of Genghis Khan’s appearance by historians living generations after Genghis Khan’s era [2, 6]. Although the factual nature of the statement is controversial, Persian historian Rashid-al-Din reported in his “Jami’s al-tawarikh” written at the start of the 14th century that most Borjigin ancestors of Genghis Khan were tall, long-bearded, red-haired, and bluish green-eyed, suggesting that the Genghis Khan’s male lineage had some Caucasoid-specific genetic features [44]. He also said that Genghis Khan looked just like his ancestors, but Kublai Khan, his grandson, did not inherit his ancestor’s red hair, implying that the addition of Mongoloid-specific alleles for determining hair color to the genetic makeup of Genghis Khan’s Borjigin clan was probably from the grandmother or mother of Kublai Khan, that is, the wife or daughter-in-law of Genghis Khan.

    “On” and “gud” from Ongud mean West and plural in ancient Altaic language, respectively, implying that the Ongud is a tribe from Western Asia. In fact, the ancestors of the Ongud are the Shato Turks of the Western Göktürks Khaganate [45, 46]; they moved to Eastern Xinjiang in the 7th century, and were scattered over Northern China and Inner Mongolia in the 9th century [47]. In the Mongolian era, many Ongud peoples were resettled in Khorazm of Western Central Asia, as governors for the Golden Horde Dynasty, and eventually formed part of the Kazakhs and the Mughals [44]. In addition, they also fell under the Chagatai Khanate that was ruled by Chagatai Khan and his descendants and/or successors and extended from the Southern part of the Aral Sea to the Altai Mountains [48]. These suggest the possibility that the Ongud clan may be anthropologically Caucasoid rather than Mongoloid, according to their geographical origin. Therefore, the male bodies carrying R1b-M343 (prevalent in Western Europe) from Tavan Tolgoi, which was located within the territory of the Ongud Kingdom during the early Mongolian era, could be related to the Ongud male lineage, implying that Tavan Tolgoi bodies are genealogically Caucasoid.

    The Ottoman Turks were genealogically Caucasoid as well. The Y-DNA haplogroup of Ottoman Empire descendants is R1a, which is also the predominant Y-DNA haplogroup of Northeastern Europeans. The early Turks with Y-DNA R1a inberited it from Eastern Europeans and were fully white. The Yenisei Kirghiz, Cumans, Kipchaks, Western Gökturks, etc were all described as majority Caucasoid and with red, blond hair color and blue/green eyes. Most of these groups were a continuation of the Scythians, geneaologically as well as culturally in most regards.

    Below is a Yenisei Kirghiz skull in it’s death mask, with full Caucasian features and preserved hair. These are your Turks who contributed “diversity” to Anatolia and the Balkans; i.e. made it whiter. Notice that the majority of Ottoman deacendants today are whiter looking than most Southeastern Europeans.

    • Replies: @Nawyr
  342. Nawyr says:
    @Nawyr

    Below are the living descendants of the Osmanoglu family, quite as white and Nordic as the 500 A.D. Yenisei Kyrgyz Turk skull I posted above.

    All the Turk invasions did was spread more white genes, more European-like DNA, with smatterings of East Eurasian genes that were already present in Eastern Europeans who descended from Andronovo and the Scythians, like the Turks. It made Southeastern Europe less woggy and brown by bringing over genetic lines from Indo Europeans who had been living in Siberia and Mongolia.

    In 2009, a genetic study of ancient Siberian cultures, the Andronovo culture, tha Karasuk culture, the Tagar culture and the Tashtyk culture, was published in Human Genetics.[2] Six Tashtyk remains of 100–400 AD from Bogratsky region, Abakano-Pérévoz I, Khakassia were surveyed.[2] Extractions of mtDNA from four individuals was determined to belong to the Western Eurasian HV, H, N9a, and T1, while the other carried the East Asian haplogroup C.[2] Extractions of Y-DNA from the remains of one individual was determined to be of Y-chromosome haplogroup Western Eurasian R1a1, which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans.[2] All individuals surveyed were determined to be Caucasoid, and were except for one individual light-eyed and light-haired.[2]

    • Replies: @Logan
    , @Anonymous
  343. Seraphim says:
    @FKA Max

    That was a fluctuation in prohibitions. The prohibition of Theodosius was upheld by his son Honorius, Emperor of the Western part. It was rescinded by the Code of Justinian for first cousins, but was re-instituted after his death. Theodosius made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.
    The Goths (Visi or Osthro), the Vandals were Christians before being settled in the Empire, after a long period of association with it as foederati or serving in the auxiliary corps of the Roman Army. Anyhow Gaul and Spain were thoroughly Christian even before Christianity became the official religion. The Franks became Christians once they set foot in Gaul.
    The Goths installed themselves comfortably into the Roman environment and ‘micegenated’ quickly. Their Law codes borrowed heavily from the Codex Theodosianus. Classical Greco-Roman Christianized education continued, literature, architecture, arts.
    They now saved this civilization from Islam. But that had really little to do with ‘eugenics’ of the cousin marriage.

  344. @Daniel Chieh

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_alphabet

    There is a picture of manchurian writing from the Forbidden city here.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  345. @ThatDamnGood

    It was an artificial later creation derived from Mongolian, which the article itself somewhat indicates.

    Some other important contributions by Nurhaci include ordering the creation of a written Manchu script, based on Mongolian script, after the earlier Jurchen script was forgotten (it had been derived from Khitan and Chinese). Nurhaci also created the civil and military administrative system that eventually evolved into the Eight Banners, the defining element of Manchu identity and the foundation for transforming the loosely knitted Jurchen tribes into a nation.

  346. Bucky says:
    @attilathehen

    Actually, Muslims do integrate nicely. I’m talking Arab Muslims, not this NOI cult garbage.

    At the very least, they’re hygienic.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
    , @Truth
  347. Talha says:
    @Logan

    Correct, which is why I used the term semi-nomadic to refer to the Arabs as a people.

    Peace.

  348. @Bucky

    In reality, some Mormons are highly functional, some are prosperous, but your generalization is unwarranted. I personally know both highly intelligent Mormons and incredibly dumb ones. They can be prosperous or dirt-poor, just like anyone else. I strongly suspect that their faith has nothing to do with it, just like all other faiths.

  349. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    I’ll be extremely impressed if you are able to assimilate the Ashkenazis without incurring harm.

    The source is irrelevant. We Muslims get criticized for this at time, but there is a wisdom to the way we set up our societies. Most Muslim countries have legal safeguards to make sure non-Muslims (it’s not just Jews) cannot achieve past a certain level of power in government; usually that is head of state or other high-level office and including certain military positions. You’ll never see a Muslim country with like 3 or 4 Jews or Buddhists on the supreme court. Or, if you have those (like Pakistan has had a couple of Hindu and one Christian SP Justice), you’ll have some level of oversight and review powers by a Federal Shariah Court or the like. This is very easy to do since many Muslim countries explicitly state Islam as the national religion and supreme law of the land in their constitution. Many Muslim countries also have parallel legal systems for non-Muslim minorities for civil laws such as marriage – a left over of the old millet system. Of course, anyone can gain full enfranchisement by converting; the idea is that you legally prevent those, that may not hold your same worldview, into positions of power where they can take society in a different direction you don’t want.

    There is also the issue of interest/usury, which is now fairly ubiquitous in Muslim lands, but had prohibitions on it for the lion’s share of our history thus there was no loan industry for anyone to monopolize and control.

    Did you know Baghdad used to be like 1/3 Jewish in the 1930′s – no joke!

    Arabs are still coarse and unrefined. Even when they are rich, they have no taste!

    There are different types of Arabs. Some Arabs are very nice people; known for their generosity and hospitality. Others are as you said – and unfortunately, these seem to be the kind of people that have the money.

    Islam is an extension of Arabic culture

    Islam cannot be decoupled from its Arabic roots since it is the language of the source texts and the Prophet (pbuh) was an Arab. It doesn’t require people to become Arabs, but certain parts of Arab culture that come along with it – for instance, even in Malaysia people break their fast with dates and greet each other with ‘assalaamu alaikum’.

    Persians are ‘less true’ Muslims on account of their sect

    Well, the Shiah sect is a minority one and considered heterodox by the majority so I can see where this impression comes from. But, as I mentioned, Persia was Sunni for the majority of its Islamic history so if one takes the long view of things, then I don’t see why one should come to that conclusion. Again, some of the biggest names in Sunni Islam were Persians.

    Is there any movement in Persia to revert to Sunni Islam?

    Not really a movement, no. But there are significant Sunni populations in the East and Western regions of the country. Sometimes it is tied with ethnicity; Kurds, Tajiks, Balochis, etc. have generally been Sunni historically.

    However there is a demographic trend afoot. The Shiah population (which is often more urban and educated) is declining due to sub-par TFR – the authorities have expressed public concern about this. The Sunni populations are more rural and don’t seem to have the same issue.

    This is a good documentary (a bit long though) on Sunnis in Iran – yes, there is some propaganda by the Iranian government in it (which I believed funded it), but it is fairly accurate and sound nonetheless:

    In my view, Sufi is the branch of Islam that really ‘gets it’.

    I wouldn’t call Sufis necessarily a branch though since there are plenty of Sunnis and Shiahs that would categorize themselves as Sufi. I happen to be a student in the Naqshbandi Order and we are quite orthodox in our beliefs and practices.

    into direct experience of the divine.

    You are right in that Sufis seek to understand the inward spiritual realities beyond just the outward practices – and they are generally way more mellow and less rigid and harsh with people. Which is one of the reasons they were so successful in places like Malaysia, Indonesia, India, West Africa, etc. Prof. David Cook of Rice Univ. estimated that around 90% of converts in the West go to the Sufi path. We would say that the Persians really codified and fine-tuned the spiritual practice that was already present from the start in concepts such as asceticism, rectification from spiritual diseases such as pride, etc.

    proximity to India had any bearing

    Sufis arrive in India fairly late though, around the 12-13th century (after the military invasions by Ghaznavids and others) but made a fairly big splash. I think one of the reasons is exactly as you pointed out; their practices to seek out the inner dimensions of worship were very accessible by the Hindu population. To this day there are many Sufi mausoleums that are revered and visited by Hindus in India.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  350. @Hbd investor

    Look, I am familiar with stats. Correlation of 0.36 can be highly significant statistically, but even a correlation of 0.78 has no predictive value in individual cases. That’s actually illustrated by your graph: ~34% of high performers on SAT got PhDs, fewer than 20% got PhDs in STEM and publications. Which means that two thirds of those scoring in the top quartile never got an advanced degree, and more than 80% never got PhDs or publications in STEM. The difference between the lowest and highest quartile is also far from impressive. That shows exactly what I said. Thanks for confirming it.

    BTW, I never said that SAT is racist. There might racial differences in intelligence (real one, not the test scores), but existing tests (SAT, ACT, GRE, or IQ) do not measure intelligence. We use them as crutches, for lack of real measures, but we must be aware that a crutch is not a leg.

  351. Logan says:
    @Nawyr

    Below are the living descendants of the Osmanoglu family, quite as white and Nordic as the 500 A.D. Yenisei Kyrgyz Turk skull I posted above.

    Of course, that just might have something to do with the fact that for 500 years the mothers of the sultans were generally European Christian slaves. LOL

    I wouldn’t have any idea how to go about calculating the amount of “steppe DNA” in this family by this time, but I’d bet a considerable sum it’s probably under 1%.

    • Agree: Talha, Bliss
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Nawyr
  352. you white peoples obsession with asian women are going to be your downfall learn to appreciate your white women who are prettier smarter more compassionate and sweeter than the average chinese female only bad thing about white women that i can see is the degenarate sexual urges that control their brain I am glad biologically the chinese women has less of these carnal desires.

    • Replies: @Nawyr
  353. Edit
    you white peoples obsession with asian women are going to be your downfall learn to appreciate your white women who are prettier smarter more compassionate and sweeter than the average chinese female only bad thing about white women that i can see is the degenarate sexual urges that control their brain I am glad biologically the chinese women has less of these carnal desires.
    I meant white women excluding the manly nasty bat shit crazy degenerate british and Irish women.

  354. @Logan

    No, you’ve just proven your low IQ.

    After Islam conquered North Africa, they introduced black slavery, concubinage and polygamy. The original North Africans were Caucasians. St. Augustine is an example of this type. They had high IQs.

    90% of modern day North African have black ancestry and the corresponding low IQ of 84. Many of them marry their first cousins. This is a common practice.

    Pakis marry first cousins. The only reason they are not black is because black slavery was not introduced in Pakistan (or it was originally India). England is dealing with the cost of low IQ offspring from these first cousin marriage today.

    Islam is a biologically degenerative belief system.

    • Replies: @Logan
  355. Talha says:
    @Logan

    Man, your calculation – or off-the-cuff estimation – is pretty solid, bro.

    Someone actually ran the numbers:
    “According to my calculations, by the time we get to the 36th and final sultan of the Ottoman Empire, Mehmed VI (r. 1918 – 1922), the Oghuz blood was so diluted that he was only about 0.195% Turkic. All of those generations of mothers from Greece, Poland, Venice, Russia, France, and beyond really drowned out the sultans’ genetic roots on the steppes of Central Asia.”

    https://www.thoughtco.com/ottoman-sultans-were-not-very-turkish-195760

    Peace.

    List of Ottoman Sultans and their Mothers’ Ethnicities

    [MORE]

    Osman I, Turkish
    Orhan, Turkish
    Murad I, Greek
    Bayezid I, Greek
    Mehmed I, Turkish
    Murad II, Turkish
    Mehmed II, Turkish
    Bayezid II, Turkish
    Selim I, Greek
    Suleiman I, Greek
    Selim II, Polish
    Murad III, Italian (Venetian)
    Mehmed III, Italian (Venetian)
    Ahmed I, Greek
    Mustafa I, Abkhazian
    Osman II, Greek or Serbian (?)
    Murad IV, Greek
    Ibrahim, Greek
    Mehmed IV, Ukrainian
    Suleiman II, Serbian
    Ahmed II, Polish
    Mustafa II, Greek
    Ahmed III, Greek
    Mahmud I, Greek
    Osman III, Serbian
    Mustafa III, French
    Abdulhamid I, Hungarian
    Selim III, Georgian
    Mustafa IV, Bulgarian
    Mahmud II, Georgian
    Abdulmecid I, Georgian or Russian (?)
    Abdulaziz I, Romanian
    Murad V, Georgian
    Abdulhamid II, Armenian or Russian (?)
    Mehmed V, Albanian
    Mehmed VI, Georgian

    • Replies: @Logan
  356. @Bucky

    Where do you live?

    How are the Arab Muslims working out in Sweden, Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands?

    “Arab Muslims” can cover north Africa and the Gulf area.

    90% of North African Muslims have black ancestry and average IQs of 84.

    Saudi Arabia, Yemen have huge black populations and the corresponding low IQ.

    Only about 10% of North African and Gulf Arabs can be classified as Caucasian and have the necessary IQs to run their countries.

    • Replies: @bucky
  357. bucky says:
    @attilathehen

    I live in a university town which has a high number of muslims: professionals, foreign students. There are a number of Muslim restaurants in the area.

    They never are in the news. The people who make the local crime news are either trashy whites or trashy blacks.

    I encounter many on a weekly basis. The women sometimes wear the hijab. I haven’t seen the full-gown niqab worn often, maybe once or twice. The foreign students, we have a lot from Saudi Arabia, especially tend to be kind of quiet, kind of all the same, nerdy, often the same height of about 5’6″ to 5’8″. The muslim women are often quite talkative. But overall while they are different they are a respectful and good people, with good cultured manners.

    I don’t actually place much stock in raw IQ. I believe that culture is far more important. It’s what you do with what you have that matters, not how much raw potential you have. Many people become talented musicians through sheer effort.

    I find hip-hop culture far more irritating. This “get wasted who cares” culture is utter garbage. I’ve seen it ruin perfectly good white Christian women. You have to pick your battles in life.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  358. tamo says:
    @dcite

    How about some of the Euro-whites in the Balkans ?

  359. Anonymous[288] • Disclaimer says:

    Harvard is being sued by “Asians” who say that it discriminates against them because “only” 23% of Harvard students are Asians.

    Sure, Asians are often smart and hard-working, but they also have a lot of gall to try to take over Harvard and thus push out Whites and others.

    Harvard and all institutions should be able to decide for themselves who they let in.

    This is what happens with some minorities and some selfish immigrant groups in America.

    You let them come in or you let them rise up and then they reproduce and they think they have the right to take over instead of just being grateful we even let them in or give them rights. Yes, I mean that.

    Would you go to a foreign country that was not White and Christian and try to take it over? No, you would not.

    This is a White Christian country. Minorities and, yes, Jews, don’t like that. Tough luck.

    Will America please wake up?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  360. Anonymous[288] • Disclaimer says:
    @Nawyr

    I don’t believe your photo.

    If those are descendants of Turks, it is only because some of them came to America over the last 50 – 150 years and married Whites and so the children look White.

    You will not find any Turk in Turkey that looks like those kids.

    Stop your propaganda please.

    • Replies: @Nawyr
  361. @bucky

    “university town…,” you live in a bubble. You did not answer my remarks about the European countries I named.

    “I don’t actually place much stock in raw IQ. I believe that culture is far more important.” Culture comes from race, which is biological and IQ is biological and related to race. Islamic culture is an oxymoron. Do you not read the news? Have you not heard of jihad, honor killings, polygamy? The people you meet are the talented 10% I mentioned. Saudi Arabia is a shithole.

    If you are a Christian, Islam is your enemy. You haven’t picked any battles. You are a cuck.

    • Replies: @Bucky
  362. Someone says:

    Anyone else wonder if Attilathehen is a NARC? Someone to push already-unbalanced idiots over the edge? Or she could be just another failed abortion. Sincerely racist and sincerely dumb. Plenty of those around here.

    And LOL @ the Ivy League. Their street cred is only as good as their material results in American finance and government. Even the most insidious propaganda system cannot compensate for harsh reality. Give it 10-15 years, and a Harvard diploma will have the same gravitas as a Moscow State degree circa 1992.

  363. Talha says:
    @Someone

    Don’t think so – I think we are dealing with a sincere person, but somewhere on the autistic spectrum. I don’t mean that as an insult, just an evaluation of the exhibited personality traits.

    Agree on the Ivy League schools though I think the time range may be longer than your estimate.

    Peace.

  364. Bucky says:
    @attilathehen

    I am aware that I live in a bubble.

    But my experience with Muslims on a personal level just goes to show that benevolent coexistence is possible with Muslims, and that they have the potential to be a good and civilized population to be neighborly with.

    Culture is related to race but it is not 100% derived from race. People have their own free will to choose what they want. I see a lot of white people adopting hip hop and that behavior. Their race is white but they have chosen to adopt hip hop culture and all that entails.

    I myself have more of an alt-right understanding of Christianity.

    But again, as I said earlier, you have to pick your battles. Would 500,000 Africans have been better to be let into Germany than Syrians? I’ve seen reports of Africans complaining that Syrians get special treatment compared to them. The Syrians have their issues, but overall are a civilized people. Even the issue of polygamy—at least the man acknowledges it and provides for the women.

    It is Africans who popularized the term “baby momma.” Not wife, not girlfriend, no hint of love or attachment. Just someone they fucked that they don’t care for emotionally. Africans invented shit like twerking. I’ll take a niqab any day over that. And the African population bomb is a much greater threat than the Muslim world.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  365. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    Also, if you are interested in specifically the military history of the Persians; including all the way from the Achaemenid, Parthian, Sassanian, Abassid, blah blah blah (including Safavids, Qajars, etc.) – down to the modern day era, this is probably the best read:

    IMMORTAL: A Military History of Iran and Its Armed Forces

    http://press.georgetown.edu/book/georgetown/immortal

    I haven’t read all of it, but the parts that I have read were enlightening. Should be required reading for anyone thinking attacking Iran is going to be a cakewalk. It also has a great quote from Herotodus:
    “…for in boldness and warlike spirit, the Persians were not a whit inferior to the Greeks…”

    Peace.

  366. @Someone

    I’m afraid she’s just a genuine crazy. For what it is worth, I actually believe she has been banned from Stormfront.

    So…lol.

  367. Nawyr says:
    @Logan

    Wrong, they weren’t. That is a myth that continues to spread around here. Blond hair in Turks is from Turks alone; several Turkic tribes were whiter than the Europeans themselves as documented by multiple sources Chinese and European.

    The Turkics west of China (and some east of Cbina’s border with Turkic countries) were genealogically European.

  368. Nawyr says:
    @Anonymous

    Yes you will and I already posted the picture of the excellently preserved 500 A.D. Turk skull from Kyrgyzstan with blond hair and mustache, European features.

    You don’t believe it because you are willfully ignorant about the history of the earliest Turks. Turks were always a confederation with high racial variation, many tribes were simply Indo Aryans (such as Scythians) who adopted Turkic language. That’s why Turks have so much R1a1 (a haplogroup spread around Central and East Asia by Indo Europeans).

  369. Nawyr says:
    @britisharebasque

    Oh yeah, a lot of blonds and European looks among those Greeks and Abkhazians

    Fake ancestry calculations and note that it’s the Sultans with two Turkish parents who were blond and European looking:

    http://www.theottomans.org/english/family/orhan.asp

    Orhan Gazi was born in 1281. His father was Osman Gazi and his mother was Mal Sultana, the daughter of Omer, who was a respected person in the Kayi Clan. Orhan Gazi was tall, had a blonde beard and blue eyes

    Again, Turks already had more blond hair and European features than southeastern Europeans themselves. The Yenisei Kirghiz )long before the Ottomans) were Caucasoids of the Nordic type. Cumans, Kipchaks: Nordic. Turks get their blond features entirely from themselves and those Sultans with Southeastern European and Caucasus mothers tended to be darker.

    It’s not just Osmanoglu Turks who are wbiter than Europeans:

    Many of the whitest Europeans also have Turkic admixture (Boris Johnson and Turkish dad):

    Turks got their blond genes from their central Asia Turkic ancestors and they didn’t come crom brown, swarthy Latinolooking Balkanites and Abkhazians, what a joke.

    Average “white” American today is a 5’8″ Latinolooking abomination with black hair, Negro lips. White Americans are not even white anymore.

    Keep wishing you could be as white as us Turks. Whoever disagrees with this comment is a brown 5’8″ Latinolooking Zionist with black hair, black eyes.

    • Replies: @Logan
  370. tamo says:
    @joe webb

    You said “President-for-Life status of the chief chink ” . You sound like a self-pitying honkie, LOL !!!

  371. Truth says:
    @Bucky

    Actually, Muslims do integrate nicely.

    Oh, is that so?

  372. Truth says:
    @Someone

    Anyone else wonder if Attilathehen is a NARC? Someone to push already-unbalanced idiots over the edge?

    I think the “already imbalanced” is the operative part there.

  373. @Someone

    “Someone,” you’re a nobody I’ve never seen before on this website. A NARC? LOL!!!

    Your problem is you cannot deal with the truth, facts, reality. I don’t know your background, so maybe my comments may be bothering you if you are not Western.

    If you are Western, you may be cucky like Bucky. I consistently point out that the most important truth is IQ and IQ is directly linked to race. The West (which is black/Asian/Jewish/Muslim) has always had the highest IQ people in history.

    If you cannot deal with the truth, that the ancient Egyptians (Caucasians) were destroyed by mixing with blacks, you’re the problem.

    If you cannot deal with the truth, that the ancient Aryan Indians were destroyed by mixing with Asians, you are the problem.

    If you cannot deal with the truth that today’s Jews are not the chosen or related to the Jews of the Old Testament and Jesus lived, you are the problem.

    If you are male, you are thinking with a feminized brain. What is it about the truth that you cannot deal with it?

  374. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    America will wake up when it will give up drugs and six-packs and when it will re-learn to read and write. When it will put in charge people who don’t confuse Australia with Austria, or Crimea with Korea.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  375. @Bucky

    “I am aware that I live in a bubble.” This is so incredibly degenerate and stupid maybe you are a troll or a NARC. I do have to respond to some of your statements.

    “…benevolent coexistence with Muslim…,” this was “tried” when the Muslims took over Spain. If this “benevolent coexistence” was so great, why did the Catholic Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand kick out all the Muslims and Jews from Spain?

    Cucky Bucky, you’re not picking any battles, you’ve raised your white flag. This is ok in your little university town, but not for a nation or for the West. Syrians and Africans do not belong in Germany or in the West.

    Hip hop is dying out among whites. Again, maybe where you live, you see a lot of degeneracy, but many whites are fighting back and reclaiming their great Western cultures.

    “I’ll take a niqab any day over that.” In a Muslim culture, a cuck like you would be castrated and turned into a bachi bazi boy. I suggest you move to Afghanistan. You would feel right at home.

  376. @Seraphim

    Do you really believe this has a chance of happening before the Hell freezes over?

  377. dux.ie says:
    @Nawyr

    > That gene is of European origin. It comes from European Neanderthals.

    Read the paper carefully. “””Frequency of this Neanderthal introgression is low in Europeans (∼5%), moderate in continental East Asians (∼30%), and high in Taiwanese aborigines (60–70%). … comparing the Eurasian haplotypes with the Altai Neanderthal on the ancestry informative markers (AIMs) of the Altai Neanderthal.”””

    Altai is at the junction of Eastern Russia and China, not Europe. The introgression between Neanderthal and Sapien happened about 30K years ago. The ancestors of most Modern European were not even in Europe at that time. https://theconversation.com/european-invasion-dna-reveals-the-origins-of-modern-europeans-38096 The third wave of immigrant from Yamnaya almost replace all the ancient European male population only around 5000 year ago. Now Altai is closer to China than Yamnaya or Berlin, and to Britain there is also the sea barrier.

    Again look at the paper by Ding you mentioned at figure 1 in the blue insert, the most of the closest pop groups in there to the Altai Neanderthal are Chinese (CHB,CHS) and Japanese (JPT). Look at figure 3 the geographic distributions, with large distribution in East Asia and very little in Europe,. “””Moreover, frequency of rs2228479*A is significantly higher in the East/Southeast Asians comparing to the Europeans (Student’s t-test, P = 0.0003).”””

    > The red hair gene isn’t recessive, either.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair “””Red hair appears most commonly in people with two copies of a recessive allele on chromosome 16 which produces an altered version of the MC1R protein.””” You are lying through your teeth.

    • Replies: @Nawyr
  378. @Bill P

    China has a remarkably primitive legal tradition by Western standards. Rule of Law is a concept that has never been applied in China, and there are no serious efforts to implement it. This depresses innovation for the obvious reason that the powerful (or even the merely crafty and unscrupulous) can expropriate intellectual property and leave the innovator with no reliable means for obtaining compensation.

    That may be the real problem in China. If an inventor can’t get paid for his creations, why would he bother? One interesting thing I’ve noticed about both theoretical and practical breakthroughs stateside is that a significant and increasing number feature what appear to be Chinese names. We may be getting into a “our Chinese are better than their Chinese” dynamic similar to the “our Germans are better than their Germans” situation that helped us win WWII.

  379. Someone says:

    Americans aren’t waking up anytime soon. The oil barons, bankers, defense contractors and monopolists who control government, media and academia are pretty much unchallenged.

    The blaming of various ethnic scapegoats just allows these vested interests to escape ire more easily. The likes of Attila are so delusional, they overlook the economically depressed all-white areas like Appalachia mining towns or the disintegrating mill towns in rural Washington and Oregon. Their inhabitants may not have much melanin nor do they identify with hip hop, but economic precariousness and the gutting of the welfare state have resulted in antisocial and self destructive behavior. Basically paler versions of Detroit.

    Plus we also are infected with idiotic bootstrap Ayn Randian philosophy. People want to see the world as just.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  380. Logan says:
    @Talha

    Thanks for the info! I was just too lazy to do the research or run the numbers.

    I have no particular opinion on what the original “race” of the Seljuk/Ottoman Turks might have been. They might very well have been white, whatever that means.

  381. Logan says:
    @Nawyr

    I have no opinion on what “race” the “original” Turks might have been. I have no problem with the possibility that they were white, whatever that means.

    My comment spoke to the indisputable fact that the Osmanli family had outbred so enthusiastically for centuries that by the 20th they were almost zero of Turkish or steppe ancestry.

    Much the same happened with the Normans. I have read claims about William the Conqueror’s being so effective due to his Norse genes. The problem is that the incredibly tiny group of original Norse settlers of Normandy married almost exclusively into the native Gallo-Roman population. By the time you get to William, sixth generation, any Northern blood is highly diluted.

    • Replies: @Nawyr
  382. tamo says:
    @Bill P

    Do not mention rule of law and America in the same breath. America is the granddaddy of industrial espionage and counterfeiting. When America was a developing country in the 19th and early 20th centuries, An America that lacked both creativity and originality, was the biggest thieving- copycat in the world. Consequently, the U.S. became the counterfeit capital of the world. America copied other countries’ inventions, ideas without regard to patents, copyright, trademarks. Even the U.S. Treasury Department under Alexander Hamilton set up a bounty system for rewarding anybody for stealing and bringing foreign technologies to America. As a matter of fact, the 19th century American textile industry was basically based on stolen British technologies. Also Americans were infamous for illegally copying Charles Dickens’ novels or manufacturing inferior hats in New York and then slapping made-in Paris labels on them and had a very bad reputation for making unsafe and gross food products (For example, American meat packers used extremely harmful TB -infected pork to make sausages). You can find all this information and more by reading Aug 26, 2007 Boston Globe article named A NATION OF OUTLAWS A CENTURY AGO, THAT WASN’T CHINA—– IT WAS US and also a Dec 5, 2012 Foreign Policy article titled WE WERE PIRATES, TOO. Every developed country went through copying stage before it became innovative. Germans copied from British. Americans stole and copied from Europe (Even in the early 20th century, American car makers were busy reverse-engineering more advanced European cars) and Japan stole and copied from both Europe and America. China is no exception to the rule. Also before the Industrial Revolution the technologically backward Europeans directly or indirectly copied a lot of things from China and Islamic civilization

    • Replies: @lulu
    , @lulu
  383. Logan says:
    @attilathehen

    After Islam conquered North Africa, they introduced black slavery, concubinage and polygamy.

    Black slavery in North Africa goes back at least a thousand years before Islam. Carthage made a lot of its money trading across the Sahara.

    Concubinage of course goes back to the beginning of human history. The Romans practiced it enthusiastically, though it was officially frowned on after the introduction of Christianity. It’s interesting that you mention Augustine, since he had a concubine for about 15 years, including a son by her.

    The Romans did not practice legal polygamy, but I have no idea what the practices of the native Berbers were in this regard.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  384. tamo says:
    @Bill P

    For your information,the concept of rule of law was first initiated by Li Kui who wrote BOOK OF LAW in ancient China in the 5th century BC. This is a few decades before Aristotle in Greece came up with the same concept in the 4th century BC. I’m going to paraphrase and quote from THE ART OF THE STATE by Christopher Hood, a prominent British scholar specializing in analysis of various government systems. “According to Max Weber a great German social scientist, a modern state must have the fully formed modern bureaucracy that clearly establishes official duties, elaborate rules governing the exercise of authority, continuous and regular performance of tasks by staff appointed on the regulated qualifications”. “Han dynasty of more than 2000 years ago that had much more complex and sophisticated bureaucracy than the imperial Rome, met Weber’s criterion for the modern state”. Starting from the middle of the 2nd century BC, Han dynasty implemented the civil service examination that was rooted in winnowing-down meritocratic system. It’s officials operated under clearly defined duties and rules. For checks and balances, Han dynasty had the institutional system that even applied to the emperor. The dynasty had an office of inspector general that had “the power to impeach officials, inspect their efficiency and integrity and criticize the policies of topmost officials or even of the emperor” According to Anthony Francois Paulus Hulsewe a prominent Dutch expert on ancient Chinese law, Han dynasty had a sophisticated law code that had more than 26,000 articles written in about 7,700,000 words that clearly outlined punishments. and there were about 500 articles on the death penalty alone which included almost 1,900 offenses and about 3,500 pieces of case law. Also ancient Chinese courts practiced forensic medicine from at the latest 3rd century BC long before the West ( although Hippocratic corpus mentioned forensic science, there is no record of ancient Greek courts’ having practiced it). So we can say Han dynasty had been a modern state long before any Western country became one. Also according to Angus Maddison a well- respected economic historian, Han dynasty had a bigger economy and was much wealthier than the Roman Empire.

  385. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    I wouldn’t call Sufis necessarily a branch though since there are plenty of Sunnis and Shiahs that would categorize themselves as Sufi. I happen to be a student in the Naqshbandi Order and we are quite orthodox in our beliefs and practices.

    I understand Sufis are often sees as heretical as they are not afraid to take unorthodox approaches to religion. I should probably read a bit more background. All I really know at the moment is that most Muslims care more about religion than God, while the Sufis seem to be the Osho-like rebels of Islam.

    they are generally way more mellow and less rigid and harsh with people. Which is one of the reasons they were so successful in places like Malaysia, Indonesia, India, West Africa, etc.

    I’ve never come across Sufi in either Malaysia or Indonesia. I think it must have disappeared again because Islam in this region today is very tribal, fundamentalist, and retrograde.

    Prof. David Cook of Rice Univ. estimated that around 90% of converts in the West go to the Sufi path.

    That makes sense. Westerners have a scientific mind and, if they are serious enough to change their religion, they’re going to want to do it properly. Equally, most of the Western converts to Buddhism are very much into meditation, spiritual practice, and understanding whereas Asian buddhists seem to be more about waving joss sticks around and leaving fruit in front of god pictures.

    • Replies: @Talha
  386. Anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    The field where Europeans unarguably dominate everyone else is art, in any genre, from painting to literature to music. Non whites’s art is absolutely basic compared to white people’s art. And before you say Latin America, most of its brilliant authors were basically white.

  387. Anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:

    Bucky, universities select for conscientious, well adapted, smart people. Of course you’re going to find all the Muslims in your uni town to be nice normal people. You need to understand it’s absolutely not a representative sample. Look at rape rates in Sweden…80% foreign born. That’s closer to the effect Muslims have on the West. They do not belong. You shouldn’t have to pick between niqabs and Africans: send them all back and block them from returning.

    • Replies: @Bucky
  388. @Logan

    You’re showing off your low IQ again. Your response is confused.

    I know about St. Augustine’s concubine. This was common before Christianity. The Romans did not practice polygamy. Polygamy is not a Western idea. It was not practiced too much in pre-Christian, Western times. Christianity codified sexual behavior and set boundaries to protect women and children.

    Carthage was an outpost of the Roman Empire. The people were Caucasians/Europeans. There was black slavery in Egypt, but it was not introduced west of Egypt until Islam took over. Then racial degeneration destroyed Caucasian North Africans.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Logan
  389. @Someone

    Another one who is once again proving his stupidity. My father was a steel worker and my mother worked part-time as a housekeeper, so don’t tell me I don’t know about economic struggles. They worked hard to give us a good education and my siblings and I have been successful. We survived without any kind of assistance. I do know what the working class has to go through. Trump is reversing the de-industrialization of the USA. The jobs are coming back. Now people have to get their morals straight.

    I don’t believe in Ayn Rand’s libertarian philosophy. I know she suffered in the Soviet Union, but she never understood why or who caused her suffering. When she left the Soviet Union, she stayed with family members so she had help in her life. Also, she married a nice man and had no children, so basically a lot of her philosophy is based on her life in the USA. She made a nice life for herself and thought everyone could do what she did. No, sometimes people will need help so I don’t mind a very limited amount of government assistance. The problem we have today is with the illegals and blacks who consume what could be a nice social welfare system for Caucasians. Sweden had this. It is now gone because of the blacks/Muslims/Asians they have allowed invade their country.

  390. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    Then racial degeneration destroyed Caucasian North Africans.

    ‘Cause them White boys couldn’t keep themselves from tappin’ that brown sugar!!! Mmmmm-mmmm!!!

  391. Logan says:
    @attilathehen

    Carthage was not part of the Roman Empire in the period I referenced. Not till 146 BC.

    The Romans were not polygamous. But many “western” peoples certainly were. The Celts, Germans, Norse and Slavs, among others. Though, to be fair, the line between formal polygamy and informal usage of dependent women around the house is sometimes vague.

    One of the biggest conflicts between the Church and the various German successor kingdoms after the fall of Rome was over the kings’ wish to continue with their traditional serial and simultaneous polygamy while the Church insisted they be monogamous.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @attilathehen
  392. Someone says:

    I shouldn’t be picking on the retarded, but Attila is just an easy target.

    No one cares about your parents or you. They could have been normal people cursed by your existence, or they could have touched you inappropriately, thus leading to your present self.

    Anyway, Attila is just a prime example of why America is F*cked like the last days of the Romans or Ottomans or any other has-been empire. Gullible masses have legitimate economic grievances projected towards irrelevant scapegoats while holding up overtly corrupt demagogues (Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump) as the ever-changing turning point.

    As if anything other than banks, pharmaceuticals, insurance, oil, military rent-seeking oligarchs matter?

  393. Talha says:
    @Logan

    Didn’t Charlemagne have a concubine? At least that’s what I remember…

    Peace.

  394. @Logan

    I know that some Germans and Charlemagne practiced a type of polygamy and concubinage. When the RCC ended this, these people were able to develop into great nations. Countries taken over by Islam degenerated because of black slavery, concubinage, inbreeding. Monogamy is the best for a nation. Of course, now that we know about IQ, blacks/Asians and their low IQs cannot produce anything great so morality issues are moot among these types. Westerners (who are not black/Asian/Jewish/Muslim) need to emphasize why conservative Christianity is best for them.

  395. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    I understand Sufis are often sees as heretical as they are not afraid to take unorthodox approaches to religion.

    Correct. Some Sufis are as orthodox as it gets (for instance the great Egyptian scholar Imam Ibn Ata-Allah [ra] who was a major jurist, hadith scholar and guide of the Shadhili Order – or Imam Ghazali [ra] who Sunni Muslims call ‘The Proof of Islam”) and some are so far off the radar, it would be difficult to even consider them Muslims. There are some non-Muslims who call themselves Sufis, so the term is fairly flexible.

    I should probably read a bit more background.

    This is a concise and very well-balanced article from a reliable source:

    http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/print/opr/t236/e0759

    Islam in this region today is very tribal, fundamentalist, and retrograde.

    That is bizarre because Islam was brought there by Sufi shaykhs, specifically the well-known Wali Songo (The Nine Saints):

    http://www.eastjava.com/books/walisongo/

    I don’t doubt that Salafi-Wahabi influence has made headway there, but I would be surprised if there are no Sufis in that area. There are many. many students that travel from Indonesia to learn in Yemen from the Sufi-scholars in an area called Tarim.

    more about waving joss sticks around and leaving fruit in front of god pictures.

    This is what happens when religion devolves into “folk-religion”.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  396. Bucky says:
    @Anonymous

    You shouldn’t have to, but nonetheless you do.

    The muslim student are all engineers of some sort. They’re not versed at all in the liberal arts. I would assume that they carry the default social positions of the society they come from, because all engineers do.

    I know, I know, even then they are self-selecting. But still, if this subgroup can live well here, it is possible. And that is better than hostility.

  397. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    That link contained the following:

    In the famous ḥadīth of Gabriel, the Prophet describes iḥsān as the innermost dimension of Islam, after islām (“submission” or correct activity) and īmān (“faith” or correct understanding). Iḥsān is a deepened understanding and perception that, in the words of this ḥadīth, allows you “to worship God as if you see him.” This means that Ṣūfīs strive to be aware of God’s presence in both the world and themselves and to act appropriately.

    This iḥsān describes my own view. I have little patience for islām as it seems to be mainly ritualised worship that makes for a block to further progress. My own spiritual life has taught me that attaining real enlightenment is extremely difficult and that our monkey mind will fabricate distractions at every step of the process. Dogma and rituals are the favourite tools of the monkey mind, and it will seize upon them to keep us in islām and firmly shut out the possibility of going past this to iḥsān. Very few religions give this the attention it deserves. Zen is probably the best and Zen masters are mind hackers who can ‘crash’ the computer of the monkey mind to wake up the user.

    The article also said:

    most Ṣūfī teachers have attempted to strike a balance between sobriety and drunkenness, or reason and unveiling. If sobriety is lost, so also is rationality, and along with it the strictures of islām and īmān; if drunkenness is lost, so also is love, spiritual vision, compassion, and iḥsān.

    My own experience of Muslims and also Christians is that most are completely stuck in sobriety. Most don’t even know that direct experience of the divine is possible. And without this direct experience, the whole religious tradition dries up, loses its vital essence, and becomes a set of empty rituals entirely devoid of spirituality.

    I don’t doubt that Salafi-Wahabi influence has made headway there, but I would be surprised if there are no Sufis in that area. There are many. many students that travel from Indonesia to learn in Yemen from the Sufi-scholars in an area called Tarim.

    Indonesia’s diversity is legendary so there almost certainly are some Sufi enclaves, probably scattered around Java. Malaysia is a lot more homogenous and Islam is very tightly controlled because it’s prime utility is as a tool for the ruling classes to divide the population, eliminate interracial marriage, and keep the races scared of each other. Sharia courts hold some real power in Malaysia and these guys are extremely backwards, so I’d be very surprised if any unconventional Sufis were allowed to talk openly.

    This is what happens when religion devolves into “folk-religion”.

    Perhaps it had to assimilate their folk religions to gain acceptance in the first place? Buddhism was invented in India and also developed in Tibet, but I’m not sure China ever contributed much.

    Either way, for a lot of these ‘Buddhists’, the temple seems to have replaced the pub and they have a jolly time doing their rituals and then eating food, drinking beer, and watching television afterwards (yes, in the temple). Sometimes there’s even live music and dancing!

    • Replies: @Talha
  398. Nawyr says:
    @dux.ie

    The Altai Neanderthals are a late eastern migration of European Neanderthals. That version of Val92met was first documented in European Neanderthals over 10 years ago:

    https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/11/dna-reveals-neanderthal-redheads/

    The Altai neanderthal was actually brown haired.

    Again, hair color is NOT recessive and your Wikiledia article (which anyone can edit™) is wrong:

    https://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/determining-dominant-and-recessive-traits

    The only one lying through their teeth here is you, although not intentionally (as the mentally retarded have a diminished capacity defense)

    • Replies: @dux.ie
  399. Nawyr says:
    @Logan

    And what you apparently fail to understand is that those “steppe” Turks were genetically European not “Steppe”.

    • Replies: @Logan
  400. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    I can see your perspective. For us – that adhere to the normative practices – islam cannot be disconnected from ihsan. The Hadith of Gabriel (as) mentions both. Islam is that which guides the practices of the body, ihsan is what guides the practices of the heart. The Sufis concentrate on the sciences of ihsan.

    The article (it was a fairly good read, right?) also stated the famous hadith:
    “My servant draws near to Me through nothing I love more than that which I have made obligatory for him, and My servant never ceases drawing near to Me through supererogatory works until I love him. Then, when I love him, I am his hearing through which he hears, his eyesight through which he sees, his hand through which he grasps, and his foot through which he walks.”

    And this is what orthodox Sufis seek to attain; experiential knowledge of the Divine through worship. Basically to make sure worship doesn’t just become mundane rituals and dead routine (as it can easily do).

    And without this direct experience, the whole religious tradition dries up, loses its vital essence, and becomes a set of empty rituals entirely devoid of spirituality.

    Bingo! Absolutely necessary in our day and time and I fully agree that way too many Muslims have forgotten this aspect of our religion.

    I really don’t know enough about the current particulars in Malaysia to comment on what’s going on there. I did come across this video of Habib Umar of Tarim travelling and meeting people in Malaysia:

    I had the pleasure of meeting him in Chicago once. But he is an orthodox Sufi teacher so maybe that’s not what you had in mind.

    Perhaps it had to assimilate their folk religions to gain acceptance in the first place?

    Hmmm – it’s quite possible. And many people are not very educated in these subjects so they just go with the flow. I’ve seen videos of Sufis in India plucking out their eyeballs from their sockets and driving skewers through their skin and stuff – mimics a lot of the stuff you might see from the sadhus.

    jolly time doing their rituals and then eating food, drinking beer, and watching television afterwards (yes, in the temple)

    That’s pretty whacky. But yeah, these are the kind of things that the rules of religion is supposed to help keep at bay. Otherwise, who knows, maybe they’ll eventually integrate female mud-wrestling into the mix.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  401. Anon[235] • Disclaimer says:
    @tamo

    China may have a lot of potential among its population, but it’s never at any point had a reasonable government that is capable of unleashing that potential. The Chinese government, in fact, has a long and disgraceful history of burning books containing knowledge about anything that happened in the previous dynasty to keep from ‘tainting’ the minds of the people. Dynasty after dynasty after dynasty has used this technique to exert control over the people. As a more recent example, Mao ordered the Red Guards to destroy the ‘Four Olds.’

    This is entire culture burning, not just book burning, and it’s incredibly difficult to recover from. It’s tough to build civilization when a nasty, paranoid government keeps knocking the ladder out from under their own people whenever they start trying to climb it. Nor have the Chinese cured themselves of this habit of making funeral pyres of their own culture whenever the fit takes them. Part of the motivator appears to be shame. Anything that makes them feel ashamed of themselves therefore has to die. The Chinese character is self-destructive in this respect.

    • Replies: @tamo
    , @Logan
  402. Anon[235] • Disclaimer says:
    @attilathehen

    Name one country that has been destroyed by abortion. Seriously. There’s never been one. What’s more, the thought that abortion can destroy a billion+ population is ridiculous. You have no grasp of the massive numbers involved.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  403. Anon[235] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hbd investor

    A huge population is not a strength except in one area, namely war. If your population is too big, you spend all your time trying to fill that rice bowl, and everybody is too busy farming ten hours a day to avoid starvation. This severely limits the amount of time you spend thinking up creative ideas.

  404. @Anonymous

    Iran was converted to Shia Islam in the 1500s when Shah Ismail took control with his establishment of the Safavid empire. By then the Sunni Ottomans to the west and Mughals to the east in India were too strong to be overcome.

  405. Logan says:
    @Nawyr

    What you apparently fail to understand is that I’m utterly agnostic on the racial identity of the Turks. Not only do I not know, I don’t care.

    You seem to flip back and forth between geographic and “racial” designations. One moment you use European to mean “white” whatever that means, and in the next you deny the Turks come from the steppe. The latter statement flies in the face of all history.

    When I said there was little steppe ancestry left in the ruling Ottoman line by the 19th century, I was speaking literally. Whoever the “original Turks” that rode into Anatolia in the mid 11th centurt were, much less than 1% of their “blood” was left in the Osmanli line by the 19th century, due to repeated out-crossing with Balkan and other actually European slaves.

    • Replies: @Nawyr
  406. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    I can see your perspective. For us – that adhere to the normative practices – islam cannot be disconnected from ihsan.

    Ok. I’m glad you see where I’m coming from. My own spirit has frequently needed to make journeys that involved casting everything off and traveling to new lands (metaphorically and physically). The journey is necessary, even if I eventually come back to the place I started. I am very glad that I wasn’t born into a restrictive religious tradition because this would have caused a lot of friction.

    Bingo! Absolutely necessary in our day and time and I fully agree that way too many Muslims have forgotten this aspect of our religion.

    I’m curious. Have psychedelics ever made inroads into Sufi or Islam? Of all the things in the world, psychedelics have an immense potential to revitalise and rejuvenate religious practice; to take the dry and arid and make it lush and verdant once more. I think they could complimentary to the Sunnah and allow one to maintain islam while enhancing ihsan.

    To preempt a potential objection, they don’t fit the definition of intoxicants, and therefore are not haram.

    I’ve seen videos of Sufis in India plucking out their eyeballs from their sockets and driving skewers through their skin and stuff

    Haha. They would be called Fakirs. Yes, that sort of thing is very popular in India because Indians love to have some miracles to go with their spiritual teachings.

    That’s pretty whacky. But yeah, these are the kind of things that the rules of religion is supposed to help keep at bay. Otherwise, who knows, maybe they’ll eventually integrate female mud-wrestling into the mix.

    Haha if they add female mud wrestling then I’m going along for sure!

    But seriously, my point is that it’s not really a religion as we understand it. Instead, it uses some kind of polytheistic semi-shamanic folk buddhism for the bonding ritual, and then the rest is a social occasion for the community. In my view, there’s absolutely nothing at all wrong with any of this, but it just leaves me somewhat curious as to what their real religious beliefs actually are!

    • Replies: @Talha
  407. Xeno says:

    The creativity difference isn’t going to matter when the Chinese have an average IQ of 120+, a prospective that is very likely now given that GWAS has already made it possible to construct IQ-related polygenic scoring (see Steve Hsu’s blog).

    In the near future it will be possible to construct cognitive ability polygenic scores (and not just proxies like educational attainment) and if the Chinese are open to embryo-selection (Hsu even expects that places like Singapore will make it part of its healthcare system) then it will be possible to raise the average IQ of the population by generation. Richard Lynn’s prediction that the Chinese will raise their population IQ by embryo-selection is a real possibility.

    Ashkenazi Jews, who are far more collectivist than White-Europeans, are probably between White-Europeans and East-Asians on the ‘creativity’ spectrum but the much more significant IQ difference (112-115 vs 100) has enabled them to compete with Europeans in many fields. At some point the IQ advantage will compensate for lack of creativity.

    This is not to even mention that personality traits like openness to experience and extroversion are highly heritable and so there will be polygenic predictors for them soon enough.

    The fate of civilization is entirely dependent on the progress of GWAS in capturing most of the heritability of cognitive ability before the rubicon of decay.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  408. @Xeno

    That’s naïve, to put it mildly. Just one example. There were many GWAS studies looking for genetic causes of Parkinson’s disease (PD). Dozens of genes were found to be associated with PD. Net result? We are exactly where we started many decades ago: the best treatment is still purely symptomatic, dopamine replacement therapy with L-DOPA, which works fine for a few years, and then causes motor fluctuations and dyskinesia. GWAS yield solutions to our problems about as often as snake oil.

    • Replies: @Xeno
  409. Xeno says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Your comparison doesn’t hold because finding specific genes, which might be necessary for medicine, is irrelevant in selecting for cognitive ability. GWAS simply needs to do for IQ what it has already done for height.

    It is now possible to predict height to within an inch using polygenic predictors constructed from GWAS studies. Do we know all the specific genes associated with height? No, we don’t – but the point is that we don’t need to know what they are if all we want to do is screen embryos for height and pick the embryo that the predictor shows as likely having the highest potential height (the one with the highest polygenic score).

    The specific genes associated with IQ are irrelevant for embryo selection. All you need is a polygenic predictor that can capture most of the common variants and then you can use it to select the embryo that has the highest polygenic score for cognitive ability.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  410. tamo says:
    @Anon

    The cycle of self-destructiveness and regeneration can be applied to not only China but also many other cultures. China like any other country has had t’s own share of both good and bad governance. China, after the disaster of the Cultural Revolution seems to be on upswing again.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  411. DB Cooper says:
    @tamo

    Agree with what you said.

  412. @Anon

    I stated and it is known that China is the fastest aging country because of the implosion of its birthrate. What caused this? Forced abortions and a 1 child policy. It worked out for the West.

  413. Anonymous[101] • Disclaimer says:
    @Patricus

    IQ as I understand it, is actually an extremely reliable tool for predicting life outcomes. It isn’t everything, but it seems to measure certain things with a very high degree of accuracy. It seems to stand up to scrutiny much better than the the theories of its detractors.

    • Replies: @Logan
  414. Logan says:
    @Anonymous

    It has been noted that IQ, while not a perfect measurement of intelligence (whatever that is) does a far better job of predicting life outcomes than any other factor we’ve developed measurements for.

  415. Logan says:
    @Anon

    Not entirely sure this is true. The only example I know of prior to the 20th was that of the Qin in 200-something BC.

    In fact, it became a tradition that it was the obligation of each new dynasty to record the history of the previous one. Of course, this obviously becomes a way to potentially spin that history to your own benefit.

    However, I’m no expert on Chinese history, and I’ll cheerfully bow to those with greater expertise if they demonstrate it.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Seraphim
  416. dux.ie says:
    @Nawyr

    > https://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/determining-dominant-and-recessive-traits The only one lying through their teeth here is you, although not intentionally (as the mentally retarded have a diminished capacity defense)

    Only retard will blame wikipedia. You intentionally chose one that talk about recessive gene in general for other traits. What about from the same source (Stanford Uni) which specifically about “The red hair versions of the MC1R gene are recessive to the other (black hair) MC1R versions.“””

    https://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask245

    “””This is where recessive comes in. Not all versions of genes are created equal — some versions are “weaker” than other ones. In genetics speak, we’d say that some alleles are recessive and some are dominant. The red hair versions of the MC1R gene are recessive to the other MC1R versions.“””

    Liar! Liar! Lying Retard Pants on Fire!

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Nawyr
  417. @Xeno

    That’s also naïve. What is the relationship between IQ and intelligence? It’s anybody’s guess. The only thing we know for sure is that IQ is not intelligence. Besides, if by intelligence you mean creativity (which is the only thing that matters: computers have more memory than any person, but zero creativity), it has nothing to do with IQ whatsoever. Under the circumstances, any GWAS would be pathetic groping in the dark and empty howling in the wind.

  418. @AnonFromTN

    “What is the relationship between IQ and intelligence?” Trying having conversations about it in Baltimore, Chicago’s south side, Ferguson. If you want to ask Asians, try the Philippines, India. If you go to shitholes, you will soon find your correct answers.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  419. @AnonFromTN

    Well, there are specific subsets of intelligence that at least you can control for: executive function, working memory, reaction time, and so on. For creativity there are convergent and divergent processes and some playing around with Torrance Tests. A lot of it is kind of groping, but its not completely useless groping; we’re probably going to learn more about how the brain functions and what we define as intelligence in the near future.

    What’s more difficult, I think, is the fact that a lot of intellectual processes actually brush up against mental illnesses. Schizoid behavior seems to be serotonin related, but serotonin also seems to be related to creativity; working memory may reduce creative associations, dopamine appears related to addictive/gamlbing behavior and so on. I doubt it’ll be an open and shut case anytime soon.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  420. @attilathehen

    What exactly do you mean by that? My bet is that the conversation about IQ and/or intelligence with TN rednecks would be exactly as productive as with the blacks in Baltimore. What does it prove, pray?

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  421. @Logan

    Much like Rome, China created far too much paperwork for history to really be covered after the Qin. We’re still digging up receipts for transactions of silk being sold on little towns in the Silk Road and stupid legal cases about kids injured by wagons to this day.

    No one has destroyed, for example, Sima Qian’s writings from the Han Dynasty that I know of.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  422. @dux.ie

    He’s obviously a nutcase not really worth much time.

    • Replies: @Nawyr
  423. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    We’re still digging up receipts for transactions of silk being sold on little towns in the Silk Road and stupid legal cases about kids injured by wagons to this day.

    Hahaha sounds like China had a litigation society 2000 years before America.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  424. @Daniel Chieh

    I agree, a lot more research in this area is needed. We can learn a lot by doing it properly.

    What I disagree with is that some “know-it-all” people presume that they know the answers before this research is done.

  425. @AnonFromTN

    Do you live in an area vibrating with blacks? Or, do you live in a redneck area? If the TN is for Tennessee this would clear up a lot.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  426. Seraphim says:
    @Logan

    You know correctly. It happened only once and even not all books have been burned, but only those in the possession of the particulars, especially of the ‘hundred schools of Thought’. It is what the Sima Qian’s “Records of the Grand Historian (Shiji)” tells us:

    “The Chancellor Li Si Said: “I, your servant, propose that all historians’ records other than those of Qin’s be burned. With the exception of the academics whose duty includes possessing books, if anyone under heaven has copies of the Shi Jing [Classic of Poetry], the Shujing [Classic of History], or the writings of the hundred schools of Thought, they shall deliver them (the books) to the governor or the commandant for burning. Anyone who dares to discuss the Shi Jing or the Classic of History shall be publicly executed. Anyone who uses history to criticize the present shall have his family executed. Any official who sees the violations but fails to report them is equally guilty. Anyone who has failed to burn the books after thirty days of this announcement shall be subjected to tattooing and be sent to build the Great Wall. The books that have exemption are those on medicine, divination, agriculture, and forestry. Those who have interest in laws shall instead study from officials.”
    —Shiji Chapter 6. “The Basic Annals of the First Emperor of Qin” thirty-fourth year (213 BC)

    All technological books were to be spared. The “objectionable” books, poetry and philosophy in particular, were preserved in imperial archives and allowed to be kept by the official scholars.
    The measure, taken by the first Emperor of a unified China, was aimed to prevent the abuse of ‘personal interpretations’ of the ‘Five Classics’ (sort of Sacred Texts) by the self appointed ‘thinkers’ and trouble makers for political reasons (fomenting revolutions). Incidentally, that suggests a high level of literacy in China.
    The exact parallel is the dissemination of the printed ‘Bible’ and its use for fomenting revolutions.
    Other known burnings were the result of revolts, wars or simply accidents as everywhere else in the world. Mao’s çultural revolution was a revolutionary act of the ‘masses” aimed at the total obliteration of any Chinese tradition. It was carried on by ideologists infected by an alien ideology, well ‘Western’ through and through.

    • Replies: @Logan
  427. @attilathehen

    Of course, TN mean Tennessee, what else could it mean? And yes, our local color is redneck.

  428. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    I am very glad that I wasn’t born into a restrictive religious tradition because this would have caused a lot of friction.

    Yeah, if one wants to kind of pick-and-choose doctrine & practice or go about it in a have-it-your-way style, then Islam is not the religion for you. It translates to “submission” for a very good reason. This is only really the path for those that are not satisfied with their life and want to approach and know God by means of Islamic teachings and doctrine.

    Have psychedelics ever made inroads into Sufi or Islam?

    Almost certainly. For Sufis which, as discussed, could be quite heterodox – I’m sure they used all sorts of stuff in their practice since they really didn’t feel they had any restrictions.

    they don’t fit the definition of intoxicants, and therefore are not haram.

    With all due respect, these are questions that are resolved by qualified muftis (usually working with a technical expert from the medical side like a neurologist). I don’t know the difference between psychedelics and intoxicants so I have no clue.

    Instead, it uses some kind of polytheistic semi-shamanic folk buddhism for the bonding ritual, and then the rest is a social occasion for the community.

    Well, it does sound like some form of religion. Maybe not the forms or patterns we are used to, but it fits the archetype. But yeah, I do wonder what their core beliefs are or if they care much about them.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  429. @Anonymous

    Literally:

    In Gongyuecheng, Merchant Li borrowed 275 bolts of silk from Cao Yanyan, Rokhshan testified, and the two men, who had no common language, agreed to meet in Kucha, some 300 kilometers to the south.

    At the time of their parting, the Sogdian was leading two camels, four cattle, and one donkey who carried his wares: silk, bowls, saddles, bows and arrows. The Sogdian merchant never arrived at his destination. One witness speculated that he might have died at the hands of Turkish bandits who wanted his cargo of weapons and saddles. Not surprisingly, the Chinese merchant never paid back the 275 bolts of silk he had borrowed from the dead man.

    Then, sometime between 665 and 673, and probably before the Tibetan incursions of 670, Cao Rokhshan brought a complaint before the authorities in Turfan on behalf of his deceased brother. His name marks him clearly as a Sogdian; Cao was a surname Chinese assigned to Sogdians who lived north of the Zerafshan River (which runs through Samarkand), and Lushan was the Chinese transcription of the Sogdian name Rokhshan “bright”, the masculine equivalent of the English “Roxanne”.

    In his affidavit the Merchant Li denied borrowing anything from his Sogdian partner. But then the court officials confronted him with the testimony of two Sogdian merchants who had witnessed the
    original loan of the 275 bolts of silk at Gongyuecheng. Although the copy of the contract belonging to the deceased Sogdian partner had disappeared, and although the Chinese merchant denied it,
    the two Sogdian witnesses vouched that the Chinese merchant had indeed borrowed the silk. According to Tang law, their testimony had the same legal standing as a copy of the contract.

    Ruling in Rokhshan’s favor, the court ordered the Merchant Li to pay back 275 bolts of silk in addition to interest.

    Its somewhat charming, seeing ancient people having basically the same legal disputes that we’re having to this day.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  430. Seraphim says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    So, there was a ‘rule of law’ in China after all. Chinese law is one of the oldest legal traditions in the world, a bit older than ‘Common Law’.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  431. Logan says:
    @Seraphim

    Thanks much for the reply! Very interesting.

  432. @Seraphim

    Tang was a high waterpoint. Pity that An Lushan ruined all that.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Seraphim
  433. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    What goes up, must come down; it is the way of the world..

    Peace.

  434. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Yeah, if one wants to kind of pick-and-choose doctrine & practice or go about it in a have-it-your-way style, then Islam is not the religion for you.

    You make it sound light hearted and insincere. More often than not, this striving for a new way is driven by disgust with the hypocrisy of established religion and a desire to know the truth at any cost. Some folk like the Buddha do this and get it right, and some folk like Aleister Crowley do this and get it wrong.

    With all due respect, these are questions that are resolved by qualified muftis (usually working with a technical expert from the medical side like a neurologist). I don’t know the difference between psychedelics and intoxicants so I have no clue.

    Please see the following link. This guy successfully petitioned the Grand Ayatollah to make psychedelics halal!

    http://realitysandwich.com/219826/ayahuasca-and-the-godhead-an-interview-

    Sufis! I fucking love them :-)

    Well, it does sound like some form of religion. Maybe not the forms or patterns we are used to, but it fits the archetype. But yeah, I do wonder what their core beliefs are or if they care much about them.

    They’re all Chinese, so very matter of fact and down to earth. They don’t like to waste time discussing metaphysical nonsense like Indians will, so they just get on and live life in the way they know. Yet one of them told me very matter of fact the other day that ‘we all believe in karma’. It also seems that all the Chinese have a similar religious outlook irrespective of whether they’re formally Christian or Buddhist or Taoist. I think it’s a subliminal spirituality and I have only managed to catch glimpses of it. Tangentally, I wonder how much of their worldview is encoded in their writing system. Because Chinese characters are made up of atomic glyphs called ‘radicals’, each with a fixed meaning, and therefore the graphical construction of a character must necessarily encode a relationship between concepts that impacts the way the reader feels about it.

    • Replies: @Talha
  435. Xeno says:
    @AnonFromTN

    IQ is an estimate of the g factor – what is common among different cognitive tasks/tests. The concept is actually a mathematical one, courtesy of Charles Spearman.

    It is not ‘intelligence’ whatever that means but IQ is an incredibly useful measure of cognitive ability and is the single best predictor of academic performance in fields like mathematics, science, engineering etc in the sense that people who do well in them tend to have high IQs and people who tend to do poorly have low IQs.

    IQ is also the single best predictor of job performance (especially jobs requiring complex mental work), income and criminality to name a few things.

    ‘Creativity’ is a nebulous concept which, unlike cognitive ability, cannot be measured very well (tests designed to measure it tend to have poor reliability, reproducibility, predictive power etc).

  436. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    You make it sound light hearted and insincere.

    Yes, I should have worded it better. That was not my intention, but I can see how it came across as offensive. And I totally understand the desire to get past some of the abuses that happen in the institutions of all organized religions – one has to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff and this can be exhausting.

    I was pointing out that Islam generally doesn’t work for those that, at the outset, want the right to incorporate doctrines and practices specific to other religious traditions in order to form some kind of a syncretic new tradition. It’s actually one of the reasons we have kept a remarkable unity in belief and practice; you can take a joe-shmoe Muslim from Nigeria and drop him in a congregational prayer in Malaysia and he’ll know exactly what to do. Try taking a Southern Baptist and dropping him in a Greek Orthodox Church on Sunday – he won’t know up from down.

    So there are inherent advantages and disadvantages to each approach.

    This guy successfully petitioned the Grand Ayatollah to make psychedelics halal!

    LOL! That is pretty amazing; definitely first ime I’m reading about it. I don’t know if there is any movement on this from a Sunni perspective though – Sunni and Shiah foundations for deriving rulings can be quite divergent; the article points to this.
    Again, I have no experience with this issue. So…you could be taking these substances and be completely fine to fly and land an airplane for instance?

    Because Chinese characters are made up of atomic glyphs called ‘radicals’…

    Very interesting. I first read about the concept that language is a technology and a tool and has an inherent culture built into it from Neil Postman’s excellent book, Technopoly.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  437. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Another German Reader

    Your reply is a complete non-sequiter.

  438. Nawyr says:
    @dux.ie

    Again, my spastic son, haid color is NOT recessive and neither is the red hair variant of MC1R. Hair color is polygenic.

    https://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/determining-dominant-and-recessive-traits

    This is a great question! From a first pass we would conclude that blue eyes and blonde hair are recessive. Unfortunately we’d be wrong about the blonde hair (and only partly right about eye color).

    The way you figure out if a trait is dominant or recessive is you look for patterns. As I’ll explain in more detail later, if a trait is recessive, then it can appear even if both parents don’t have that trait. Another way to tell if a trait is recessive is if both parents and all their kids share that same trait.

    In our case here, both parents have brown eyes but they had a blue-eyed child. So this follows the first pattern meaning blue eyes are recessive. The same would be true for blonde hair. Both parents had brown hair but they had a child with blonde hair.

    As I said, though, we’d be wrong. It turns out that eye color and most hair colors are way too complicated to be simple dominant/recessive traits.

    One of the big reasons why blonde hair and blue eyes (and all those other traits) fail as true recessives is that they are not due to a single gene.  And truly recessive traits almost always involve a single gene

    You were wrong ahout the Altai Neanderthals and you are wrong about hair color.

    • Replies: @dux.ie
  439. Nawyr says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Oh look, our resident pipsqueak has something to say about me.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  440. Nawyr says:
    @Logan

    I have never once denied that Turks “came from the steppe”. That is entirely your own delusion and reflected in nothing I have ever written here. The Turks in central Asia were substantially genealogically European. Their invasions in the Caucasus and the Balkans didn’t bring “steppe DNA” but mostly Northern European DNA, as evidenced by the very high frequencies of R1a1/R1b in Turkic burials and of course fhe ubiquity of R1a1 among Turkish royal lines.

  441. Nawyr says:

    Genealogical origins of Altai Neanderthals

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160217140315.htm

    The team’s evidence of “gene flow” from descendants of modern humans into the Neanderthal genome applies to one specific Neanderthal, whose remains were found in a cave in the Altai Mountains in southern Siberia, near the Russia-Mongolia border. Two Neanderthals from European caves that were sequenced for this study — one from Croatia, another from Spain — both lack DNA derived from modern humans. The team also analyzed the genome of another extinct human, a Denisovan, whose remains were found in the same cave in the Altai Mountains as the Neanderthal bone. Unlike the Neanderthal individual, the Denisovan individual did not carry any modern human DNA. That does not mean modern humans never mated with Denisovans or European Neanderthals. What it does mean, Siepel clarifies, is that “the signal we are seeing in the Altai Neanderthal probably comes from an interbreeding event that occurred after this Neanderthal lineage diverged from its European cousins, a little more than 100,000 years ago.”

    mtDNA of European, south-central Asian and Altaic Neanderthals:

    https://pages.vassar.edu/central-asia-sites/2017/12/07/okladnikov-cave/

    The human remains found from Okladnikov cave were the first neanderthals found in the Altai. The remains are as follows: adult humerus and human M3 tooth from stratum 2, subadult humerus and femur, adult middle hand phalanx, and three teeth (P3, M1, M3) from stratum 3, and lower dm2 tooth from stratum 7 (Krause et al, 2007 supplement). Krause et al posit that the humerus and femur in stratum 3 are from the same subadult individual. The mtDNA sequence of these individuals clearly shows a gene pool distinct from modern humans, and confirms their neanderthal provenience. Their study compares the mtDMA from European neanderthals with Tekish-Tash and the Okladnikov individuals, which showed that, though Tekish-Tash was more closely related to Western European neanderthals than it was to the Okladnikov individuals, the minimal mtDNA divergence suggested that none of these population had been separated for very long (Krause et al, 2007). Moreover, Dobrovolskaya and Tiunov confirmed that neanderthals at Okladnikov cave had a diet similar to European neanderthals—namely, hunting large herbivores (Dobrobolskaya and Tiunov 2013).

    European Neanderthals crash in to Southeast China:

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/1997630/neanderthal-marco-polo-prehistoric-chinese-skull-intriguing-signs

    In the throes of the Great Leap Forward, farmers in a remote Guangdong township discovered local links with a long-buried European past.

    The farmers in Maba township were shovelling sediment from hillside limestone caves in their search for phosphorus to use as fertiliser on their crops in 1958.

    The caves had long been a source of phosphorus-rich animal bones and they would grind the material into a powder and heat it in ovens to later spread over the fields.

    As they dug into the sediment, load after load, one of the farmers spotted something that looked like a human skull.

    Palaeoanthropologists later pieced it together with more fragments found at the site to form much of the skull of a early human that lived in southern China more than 130,000 years ago.

    The Maba specimen was neither the oldest nor the best preserved early human remains found in China, but something set it apart: it had a “European” face with distinct features that resembled those of a Neanderthal, a human species that roamed Europe before modern humans arrived from Africa

    That raised the question of whether the Maba skull was from a species of human that originated in Europe, a kind of prehistoric Neanderthalian Marco Polo.

    The biggest problem to finding an answer was the incompleteness of the fossil. Its lower face was missing and there were numerous gaps in the brain casing.

    So a joint Spanish and Chinese research team scanned the specimen and filled in the gaps with digital technology, leading to some surprising results.

  442. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    I was pointing out that Islam generally doesn’t work for those that, at the outset, want the right to incorporate doctrines and practices specific to other religious traditions in order to form some kind of a syncretic new tradition.

    I’m starting to understand where you’re coming from. The religion is pretty tightly regulated, yet there seems to be a lot of space at the mystical end for those who need to see the truth for themselves. I guess this is quite culture-specific though. Headbangers like the Taliban or the Saudis probably don’t permit too much Sufi activity. Then again, psychoanalysis was banned in Nazi Germany and The USSR so I guess the athiests can be just as bad.

    Again, I have no experience with this issue. So…you could be taking these substances and be completely fine to fly and land an airplane for instance?

    Not recommended. Medium-high doses can cause functional impairment or even complete ego loss. For a Sufi looking to see God, that’s perfect. For a pilot who needs to be a pilot, that’s bad.

    I dispute the term ‘intoxication’ because it’s absolutely nothing like alcohol or even any of the other commonly taken drugs. In very broad terms, common drugs cause the mind to narrow. This is true of alcohol and also true of stimulants like caffeine and amphetamines. In the former case, the behavior will be drunk and messy and in the latter case the behavior will be focused, precise, and highly productive. They appear to be completely different, but the common factor is the narrowing of the mind. One who is on a all night caffeine binge may be churning out reams of coursework, but their appreciation for life as a whole is very much diminished. Same for a coke fiend stockbroker. He’s a highly optimized animal, expert at his job, and yet gains success at the expense of his ‘whole human’ consciousness.

    Psychedelics are quite the opposite. They widen the field of consciousness and allow the spirit to gain a broader perspective. Low doses may provide answers to daily problems, medium doses may allow one to heal emotional blockages or explore religious thinking, while high doses may cause full on ego loss and direct experience of the God head.

    I think that it’s generally impossible for people without experience to imagine what psychedelics may allow. We all grew up in a propaganda-heavy prohibitionist atmosphere, so we all have a stubbornly negative view towards ‘drugs’.

    Personally, I feel that psychedelics have their greatest value in catalyzing spiritual development and transmuting book knowledge into numinous experience. People with no spiritual inclination and not much of interest in their mind may spend their experience watching mental hallucinations dancing around their vision and be entirely unchanged as people afterwards. Conversely, sincere religious practitioners can attain life changing breakthroughs and real divine blessing.

    I respect your sincerity of faith, Talha, and I also respect that you are open to other people taking other paths. I also see that you have a good appreciation for the mystical side of your own religion, even if it is not your path. I think if someone like yourself were to undergo a psychedelic ceremony in a proper setting under proper supervision, the results could be fantastic.

    Please seriously consider it!

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @Talha
    , @Talha
  443. @Patricus

    Patricus wrote: Yee is probably right about IQ studies being pseudo science.

    No, he’s not right. This was debated and settled among psychometric psychologists long ago. Read Jensen’s comprehensive _Bias in Mental Testing_ from 1981. None of the arguments against IQ tests have gotten any better since then, just True Believers of the egalitarian cult rehashing the same old nonsense.

    >When I was a student in the 1970s the psychology profession was dismissive of IQ scores.

    Well, duh, the sixties and seventies were the pinnacle of intolerant egalitarian fanaticism. Dissenting professors had to be accompanied by security guards when they stepped onto campus because of the death threats.

    > It was then believed there were 10 or 12 different aptitudes including spoken language, written language, math, spatial reasoning and others.

    They told you a politically acceptable half truth. What they left out, but knew even then, is that these aptitudes are all positively correlated because a large part of each of these aptitudes is explained by a single common factor–the general factor or general intelligence or Spearman’s coefficient.

    >Somehow the single IQ score, which apparently explains everything, came back to popularity.

    It is called bowing to reality. Among scientists with expertise in the field, the IQ score and its importance never went away–but many academics consider this information to be too dangerous for the hoi polloi to be exposed to. You might call it “Spearman’s dangerous idea.”

    >Would these scores be allowed as evidence in a court of law?

    They already are allowed. Murder convicts are sometimes spared the death penalty on the ground that their IQ test score is “too low” to consider them fully responsible for their actions.

    • Replies: @Patricus
  444. @Anonymous

    LSD days

    Gen Y does not know how LSD wiped out a generation. It really mangled people’s brains. I’m talking about the guys who did 10 or more hits of acid.

    A cocaine or meth addict is fine a few years later. You cannot really tell if they have damaged their brains.

    But meet a guy who did LSD 100 times ten years later and you will know immediately.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  445. @Nawyr

    Trust me, its not me who needs convincing that Turks are white.

    Let me endeavour very briefly to sketch, in the rudest outline, what the Turkish race was and what it is. It is not a question of Mahometanism simply, but of Mahometanism compounded with the peculiar character of a race. They are not the mild Mahometans of India, nor the chivalrous Saladins of Syria, nor the cultured Moors of Spain. They were, upon the whole, from the black day when they first entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity.

    - William Ewart Gladstone, one of the most popular Prime Ministers of England

    https://attackingthedevil.co.uk/related/bulgarian_horrors.php

    For me, the existence of caucasoid indo-european populations is almost certain given some Tang records, and of equally little importance. The Xiongnu existed,the Xiongnu ended, and life goes on.

  446. Seraphim says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    It had certainly something to do with the expansion of Islam in Central Asia and further north. Turks, Uighurs loom large. Why would Talha giggle so happily otherwise?

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  447. @Seraphim

    The Uighers are not expanding. The Chinese are killing them off. The Turks are dying off through their low birth rates.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  448. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    The religion is pretty tightly regulated, yet there seems to be a lot of space at the mystical end for those who need to see the truth for themselves.

    Bingo! As I stated, many very knowledgeable scholars are Sufis; the former grand muftis of both Egypt and Pakistan are Sufi guides. Not sure about the current ones.

    Taliban or the Saudis probably don’t permit too much Sufi activity.

    The Taliban were actually not as bad as the Saudis on this front though they were restrictive. This actually lists a reasonable breakdown of the differences between the Taliban and Daesh (who are currently at war):
    “There are theological differences too. The Taliban is a conservative clerical movement loyal to the puritanical version of the Hanafi school of Sunni Islam, practised by the vast majority of Sunni Afghans. They generally believe in Sufism and have tended to avoid anti-Shia sectarian violence.”

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35123748

    The Salafi-Wahhabi take on Islam generally hates Sufis with a passion.

    I also see that you have a good appreciation for the mystical side of your own religion, even if it is not your path.

    It is my path actually, which is why I study the lessons of the Naqshbandi Order (under the guidance of my shaykhs) as formulated by the Khawajagan of Persia and Central Asia. But my order is known for its adherence to the Shariah in praxis.

    Please seriously consider it!

    Sounds fairly neat (and tempting) to be honest with you. But, as I said, I’m a fairly orthodox when it comes to practice. If this starts becoming something adopted by the scholars of my tradition, I might give it a whirl. The chances of that happening are fairly low at this point, but you never know.

    Peace.

  449. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    Thanks for the great exchange, by the way, much appreciated. We should probably should wrap it up though. Thanks also for that article and the info on the psychedelics in comparison to thing like alcohol, etc.

    Perhaps psychedelics will help solve the issue of creativity in the title of this article…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  450. Seraphim says:
    @attilathehen

    Uighurs and all the ISIS like Central Asians have been mandated to sabotage the Silk Roads, like their likes of yore.

    • Replies: @myself
  451. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Gen Y does not know how LSD wiped out a generation. It really mangled people’s brains. I’m talking about the guys who did 10 or more hits of acid.

    LSD doesn’t mangle brains. It has no physical effects.

    If someone released more than they could handle, did so in an uncomfortable setting, or had major issues to begin with, I can understand how they could develop problems afterwards. To prevent this, approach psychedelics with extreme respect.

    But meet a guy who did LSD 100 times ten years later and you will know immediately.

    I think this would include Stan Grof, who is now 87 years old and as sharp as ever. Also Albert Hofmann, who died at 102 years old with perfect mental clarity.

    Have you ever considered that you’ve only seen the failures, simply because the success stories prefer to keep quiet about their illegal activity?

  452. dux.ie says:
    @Nawyr

    Read the text you quoted carefully. It is about blonde hair, nothing about red hair.

    Liar! Liar! Color Blind Illiterate Lying Retard Pants on Fire!

  453. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Thanks for the great exchange, by the way, much appreciated.

    Yes, thank you too Talha.

    Perhaps psychedelics will help solve the issue of creativity in the title of this article…

    I have often wondered about exactly this! I can see two markets in China for psychedelics – one for the ultra rich who have transcended material pleasure simply by having already tasted everything money can buy, and two for a party-approved program to deliberately enhance creativity by dosing up selected smart folks. Perhaps it could even take off grassroots style in somewhere like Shenzhen where one hi tech/software company learns to increase productivity, and then the rest follow.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  454. @Anonymous

    A COLLEGE DRUGGIE SPEAKS (Used everything from nutmeg to ecstasy to cocaine)

    Ex Acid Heads

    This is your average conspiracy freak. A paranoid schizophrenic and schizoid type. Happens to people who trip for days on end.

    Ex Cocaine Users

    Aggressive and unable to control impulsive outbursts of anger. Heightened sense of entitlement.

    Ex Crackheads

    Same, but crackheads often have other experiences that are traumatic as a result of their addiction.

    Ex Methheads

    Brain damaged and fried.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  455. @Anonymous

    Pot has been around in China for thousands of years. Also, mushrooms.

    From experience I would say that cocaine is the drug of choice for striving young techies. Second, ecstasy.

    LSD is sort of passe, like ludes.

    You’re probably over 40. I’m not sure that you can even FIND acid anymore.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  456. myself says:
    @Seraphim

    Uighurs and all the ISIS like Central Asians have been mandated to sabotage the Silk Roads, like their likes of yore.

    But what if the Han, Mongolians and Manchurians put them down again, as happened before?

    I mean, since we’re using ancient history as a template for the future, we might as well go all the way . . .

    Not that I see history repeating, mind you

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  457. @Jeff Stryker

    You are incorrect, and behind the times here. I cannot speak for China, as I haven’t heard any major use of psychoactives by professionals but in Silicon Valley microdosing with LSD is a huge thing lately – just google it.

    Thus the joke:”In the 1960s, you trip to experience new frontiers of reality. In 2010, you trip to increase your productivity by 14%”

    I suspect the serotonin overstimulation is not that helpful. Still, interesting.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  458. @Anonymous

    LSD doesn’t mangle brains. It has no physical effects.

    It’s not magic. It leaves molecules in the brain that increase serotonin sensitivity. It’s probably harmless in the main – eventually leaves your system but its incorrect to state that it has no physical effects. Prolonged use ought to dampen serotonin reception in theory.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  459. @Daniel Chieh

    LSD is a “college drug” (I know this, I tried it) along with pot and shrooms.

    You cannot function on LSD. It is a psychoactive drug.

    Once you drop acid, you’re gone for about 8 hours.

    I only did acid twice. It can be unpleasant and like many other people I wanted to simply get through it.

    By the way, LSD does not necessarily expand your mind. It merely distorts it.

    I’ve done every type of psychoactive drug from nutmeg to LSD to mushrooms. I smoked pot everyday for 5 years (Twenty years ago, quit in 1999).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  460. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Previously you said:

    A cocaine or meth addict is fine a few years later. You cannot really tell if they have damaged their brains.

    Now you say:

    Ex Cocaine Users

    Aggressive and unable to control impulsive outbursts of anger. Heightened sense of entitlement.

    Ex Methheads

    Brain damaged and fried.

    As Daniel Chieh pointed out, you’re way off the mark on contemporary drug use too.

    If you don’t know anything about the topic, it’s ok to sit quietly and listen. Don’t make stuff up just because you want to sound clever.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  461. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    It leaves molecules in the brain that increase serotonin sensitivity.

    It doesn’t leave anything behind. It’s metabolised pretty quick. This thing about ‘molecules left behind’ is a scare story invented by the drug warriors.

    its incorrect to state that it has no physical effects.

    No it’s not. LSD has no direct physical effects. Any physiological changes are mediated purely through a psychological mechanism.

    Prolonged use ought to dampen serotonin reception in theory.

    What theory? LSD is active at such minute doses and leaves the system so fast that there is no reason to suspect lasting effects. Empirically, users generally report a diminished sensitivity to all psychedelics for about 3 days and no long term effects.

    Stop looking for physical causes. It’s the mark of ignorance. These things work at the mental level and any physical symptoms are secondary.

  462. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    You cannot function on LSD. It is a psychoactive drug.

    Yes you can. You can be very creative.

    I only did acid twice. It can be unpleasant and like many other people I wanted to simply get through it.

    So you’ve only tripped twice and both times you couldn’t get the hang of it? You’re a novice and you’ve got no place disparaging it.

    By the way, LSD does not necessarily expand your mind. It merely distorts it.

    Typical symptom of a bad trip. You were so twisted up trying to hang on to your ego and ‘get through it’ that you outright refused to let the process run its course. You should have had more trust so you could loosen up, let go, and let the process naturally run its course. It would have been a much more pleasant experience, and you would have a much more positive opinion.

    I’ve done every type of psychoactive drug from nutmeg to LSD to mushrooms. I smoked pot everyday for 5 years (Twenty years ago, quit in 1999).

    Nutmeg? Seriously? Starbucks sell better. And pot? It’s a herbal condiment at best.

    Mushrooms are serious, but I bet you had a one or two bad trips and gave up on them too.

    Please stop pretending to know stuff about psychedelics. You really don’t have a clue.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  463. @Anonymous

    Oh, I know drugs. My inconsistencies could be a symptom.

    However I am flattered that a reader should so parse my off-the-cuff observations.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  464. @Anonymous

    Mushrooms don’t have the peaks and valleys of acid; bad trips are rarer. Acid on the other hand can really trash you.

    Nutmeg is definitely a low-grade hallucinogen. Terrible hangover.

    Pot a herbal condiment? Well not quite.

    • Replies: @Logan
    , @Anonymous
  465. Logan says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    One comment. There are LOTS of different magic mushrooms, and of course they grow in a wide variety of environments.

    While I’m no expert, it would be reasonable to assume their characteristics and effects are a good deal more variable than those of a chemical compound with a precise formula.

    http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/mushrooms

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  466. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    Typo: There *are* almost as many ethnic Germans in the U.S. as there are in Germany

    German-Americans
    The silent minority
    America’s largest ethnic group has assimilated so well that people barely notice it

    Today German-Americans are quietly successful. Their median household income, at $61,500, is 18% above the national norm. They are more likely to have college degrees than other Americans, and less likely to be unemployed. A whopping 97% of them speak only English at home.

    They have assimilated and prospered without any political help specially tailored for their ethnic group. “The Greeks and the Irish have a far stronger support network and lobby groups than we do,” says Peter Wittig, Germany’s ambassador in America. There was no German-American congressional caucus until 2010, though there were caucuses for potatoes, bicycles and Albanian affairs. The German caucus has quickly grown to about 100 members, who lobby for trade and investment as well as the preservation of their common cultural heritage.

    http://archive.is/xIBYH#selection-1325.0-1329.539

    They also elected Trump, who is half-German:

    Which White People Support Trump?

    Pundits often talk about the “white vote,” but it’s more complicated than that. Voters who say they have German or Italian heritage lean most heavily to Trump and the GOP, a poll run for BuzzFeed News reveals.

    Source: http://www.unz.com/isteve/dennis-ross-memories-of-an-anti-semitic-state-department/#comment-2023463 and http://archive.fo/2C233

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @Bliss
  467. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Oh, I know drugs. My inconsistencies could be a symptom.

    You’d have to have actually taken any for that to be the case.

  468. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Mushrooms don’t have the peaks and valleys of acid; bad trips are rarer. Acid on the other hand can really trash you.

    Wrong. Given sufficient dosage, the highs and lows can be just as soul shattering as acid.

    Actually, I’d say mushrooms are more difficult because acid is a pure chemical substance that gives a very pure high, whereas mushrooms have a much more complicated earthy feel that most people find more overwhelming and hard to deal with. They’ve got an energy of its own that comes in waves, and can feel like floating in an ocean during a storm.

    If you wish to learn more, there’s lots of info on https://www.erowid.org/

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  469. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Logan

    While I’m no expert, it would be reasonable to assume their characteristics and effects are a good deal more variable than those of a chemical compound with a precise formula.

    If we ignore the amanita muscaria (red dot ones) then all of the psilocybe mushrooms are roughly similar. Potency will vary a lot, but the variation among qualitative effects would be much less than in the case of cannabis. I’d guess it’s because mushrooms only have one main psychoactive compound (psilocin plus its prodrug, psilocybin), whereas cannabis has a few different alkaloids. Pure psilocin is still very similar to mushrooms, whereas pure THC is nothing like smoking cannabis.

  470. @Anonymous

    Why would I want to read your links when I was my own guinea pig in college?

    Anyhow, you’re simply tailgating to tailgate. This is pointless.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  471. @FKA Max

    Italian-Americans used to run the Democratic machine back when it was the white working class party supported by unions etc.

    That is how the mafia got close to Kennedy.

  472. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Anyhow, you’re simply tailgating to tailgate. This is pointless.

    Nah, I’m just calling you out on your BS because it annoys me. Psychedelics have huge potential for human development and the last thing we need is a bunch of 2-trip wonders like yourself spreading their FUD around.

  473. “Huge potential for development”

    I never knew anyone who took more than 100 trips who had development for anything.

    Maybe you’re on acid right now and you think that, but go an visit a bunch of 45 year old deadheads out in Oregon who have been tripping everyday since 1990 when they went to their first Phish concert (Are those guys still around) and you will simply see some aging grunge-hippie types in a Jam session.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  474. Seraphim says:
    @myself

    Well, history was repeating according to the same scenario and with the same actors in more recent times. Control of the Silk Roads, terrestrial and maritime, carving of China, smothering her traditions, challenging the ‘Mandate of Heaven’ of the Chinese Emperors. China always prevailed albeit with enormous sacrifices.

  475. Patricus says:
    @Realityphile

    Thanks for the detailed response. Suppose I will have to read up on psychometric psychologists And “Spearman coefficients” some day. Those of us who studied physical sciences tend to be snobs when we hear about the glorious work of social scientists with their 5% confidence intervals.

    Egalitarian fanaticism: new words for me. One day I took an IQ test on the internet and, to my surprise, I was a near genius. I was also old enough to know there is no way I am in the top fraction of 1%. Half the people I meet are smarter than me. For only $99 they offered my the opportunity to further explore my superior intellect. Passed on that offer and I think that proves I’m probably in the top 50% if morons, cretins and idiots are included.

    When one honestly realizes he or she is mostly stupid it then becomes possible to learn quickly. Humility precedes enlightenment.

  476. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    And therein lies the difference between use and abuse.

  477. Bliss says:
    @FKA Max

    On the other hand:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Americans_in_the_American_Civil_War

    German-Americans were the largest ethnic contingent to fight for the Union in the American Civil War….Approximately 516,000 Union soldiers, or 23.4% of all Union soldiers, were immigrants; about 216,000 of these were born in Germany…..Commonly referred to as “Dutchmen” by other Union soldiers, and “lopeared Dutch” by Confederates, German-American units in general earned a reputation for discipline. Some of them had previously served in European armies, and they brought valuable experience to the Union Army.

    A popular Union commander and native German, Major General Franz Sigel was the highest ranking German-American officer in the Union Army, with many Germans enlisting to “fight mit Sigel.”……Another famous German American, though not an immigrant, was Maj. Gen. George Armstrong Custer. He fought against the Confederate cavalry of Maj. Gen. J.E.B. Stuart at Gettysburg and famously died in the Battle of Little Big Horn during the Indian Wars .

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  478. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Bliss

    “Democrats are the real racists” hahahahaha ;-)

    Abraham Lincoln and the members of Congress who fought to reconstruct the South in a manner that would guarantee the rights of freed slaves were Republicans. And the Democratic Party’s history is rife with horrific racism. D’Souza’s schtick is to selectively cite those historical truths while eliding other truths, like huge changes in the political parties across the decades, Democrats who’ve fought for civil rights, and a Republican Party history that is also rife with horrific racism, helping to explain why so few African Americans cast ballots for the GOP today.

    D’Souza’s approach is especially attractive to the subset of grassroots Republicans who resent being lectured about racism on the ideological right. How psychologically comforting to be told that Democrats are the real racists, rather than grapple with the bigotry that is present in their own coalition. My colleague cited apt examples of the intellectual dishonesty and factual distortions D’Souza deploys while profiting off of his pandering. But Frum’s article happened to be written just before the absurdity of D’Souza’s project reached what may be its apotheosis.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/08/peak-absurdity-for-democrats-are-the-real-racists/567317/

    Donald Trump Jr. Praises D’Souza’s Film Comparing Democrats to Nazis (HBO)

  479. lulu says:
    @tamo

    Guess a lot people here don’t know how two Christian monks stole silkworms from China in 6th AD, which was then used to give Byzantine Empire a monopoly of silk trade in Europe.

    This is how much “moral superiority” and “inventive creativity” that those white supremacists here claim the white Christian people have over all the yellow, brown and black people.

    • Replies: @tamo
  480. lulu says:
    @tamo

    Btw, Made-in Germany used to be equivalent to bad/inferior quality due to its copycat manufacturing. The label was originally introduced in Britain by the Merchandise Marks Act 1887 to protect British brands. Then German government under Bismarck introduced a protectionist policy to legally prohibit the import of goods in order to build up domestic industry.

    Talking about American food scandals, The Jungle, a 1906 novel by Upton Sinclair, depicted the harsh conditions and exploited lives of immigrants in the United States and described “in lurid detail the filthy conditions in the meat packing industry—where rats, putrid meat, and poisoned rat bait were routinely ground up into sausages, which prompted Roosevelt’s pushing for the Meat Inspection Act and the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906.

    • Replies: @tamo
  481. tamo says:
    @lulu

    You are absolutely correct. This is the first known case of the backward Europe stealing from China BEFORE the Industrial Revolution. Even Adam Smith in 1776 in his WEALTH OF NATIONS stated that China was TECHNOLOGICALLY MORE ADVANCED and RICHER than EUROPE
    AT THE TIME. But unfortunately for China, the European industrial revolution accelerated by James’Watt’s steam engine left China in the dust. But there is a good chance China will be the technology superpower AGAIN by 2040.

  482. tamo says:
    @lulu

    Also America protected ONLY it’s own patents until 1893 when the U.S. finally gave legal protections to foreign patents. It means that America had a long open season on foreign patents.

  483. Logan says:
    @tamo

    Adam Smith was incorrect in 1776. Nobody, in China or Europe, had yet realized just how fast China was falling behind. But they were already behind and fading fast.

    The famous Opium Wars of a half century or so later were fought because while Europe wanted silk and tea and other things, Europe didn’t really have anything China wanted. Probably because China didn’t know much about what Europe already had. This led to a massive drain of silver into China.

    So the Brits (mostly) developed an artificial market for opium they could sell to China to pay for all that tea and silk. When the Chinese tried to stop this trade, it led to war. Though the whole story of the war is complicated and not nearly as egregious on the part of the Brits as commponly portrayed.

    • Replies: @tamo
  484. tamo says:

    I think Adam Smith in 1776 was VERY right saying that China was ahead of Europe in TECHNOLOGY and also produced about one third of the global GDP ( according to a distinguished economic historian Paul Bairoch ). Even though Europe overtook China in math, physics including astronomy in the early 17th century, China was still ahead of Europe in botany, chemical knowledge until the late 18th century and in the case of medicine well into the 19th century. Throughout the 18th century , Europeans gathered a lot of Chinese technologies through the Jesuits stationed in China and even in 1765, Anne Robert Jacques Turgot , the finance minister under France’s Louis 16th, sent missionaries to China to gather information on Chinese technologies, agricultural techniques. Without such Chinese inventions as blast furnace, cast iron, so-called Bessemer Steel Process, coking-coal, deep drilling technologies for natural gas and oil etc, the Industrial Revolution in Europe would have been impossible. Europe had nothing to sell to China. In this time period, Chinese manufactured cannon were as powerful as any European ones and also China could produce the mechanical clocks that were as good as British ones but at two-thirds of the cost. James Watt’s steam engine patented in 1781 . was the game changer,Up to that time, steam engines were primitive and used MAINLY to discharge excess water from mines. But Watt’s steam engine could be VERY EFFICIENTLY deployed for running machines in factories for mass production. So by the time Lord Macartney went to Beijing in 1793, China already fell behind Europe. Also the Napoleonic Wars advanced the European military technologies and tactics. So when you combine the acceleration of the Industrial Revolution with coming of the Watt’s steam engine with the positive technological effects on European military after the Napoleonic Wars, China couldn’t stand a chance against British in the Opium War in 1839.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
  485. tamo says:
    @Logan

    I replied to you. Please read comment # 494.

  486. Talha says:
    @tamo

    China couldn’t stand a chance against British in the Opium War in 1839.

    Don’t feel too bad, the Europeans (after having serious practice on each other) basically kicked everyone’s backsides on the battlefield all over the world.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @tamo
  487. tamo says:
    @Talha

    You are right. But Europeans’ habitual internecine warfare (for example, World War one and two) brought about drastic- weakening of their power. I think the 21st century might become a very different story.

    • Replies: @Talha
  488. Talha says:
    @tamo

    drastic- weakening of their power

    This and they both shared and sold their military technology with other nations thus losing their enormous edge on the battlefield in many cases. Massive divergence in population also has a lot to do with it. For instance, the Dutch were able to bring Indonesia to heal in the past – that seems completely unimaginable in our current situation unless some new game-changer comes about.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @tamo
  489. tamo says:
    @Talha

    I think there is a good chance that Asia will play predominant positions by the middle of this century as she had been before the Industrial Revolution.

    • Agree: Talha
  490. Logan says:

    Thanks for the reply.

    In poking around, I discovered that this split between China and Europe is commonly referred to as the Great Divergence. In 1750 it was not perhaps entirely clear which civilization was ahead, by 1800 Europe clearly was. Since the year we’re referencing came precisely in the middle of that period, I think it’s reasonable to hold either POV.

    However, according to Wiki, the Great Divergence is considered by most historians to have begun well before 1750, or certainly 1776, perhaps well back into the 1600s. There is of course no “right” answer to such questions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Divergence

    I will cheerfully agree that China for most of its history was much more innovative than Europe. But it had, at least under the later Ming and the Ching, a severe and ultimately fatal case of Not Invented Here syndrome. The Chinese were absolutely convinced of their own superiority and thus that they had nothing to learn from others. So they didn’t.

    You will note that Europeans were interested in China, traveled there when allowed, and brought inventions, items and ideas back to Europe, which was fascinated by all things Chinese. China did not reciprocate. Few Chinese traveled to Europe, and those who did found little interest in what they’d seen when they returned. Japan and Korea, with much the same mindset, quite possibly derived from Chinese ideas, went even farther, banning most contact with the outside world completely.

    I do somewhat question your comments about clocks and cannon, as I do know that Jesuit missionaries were initially welcomed into China partly because they produced superior clocks, and Portuguese mercenaries played major roles in the Ming/Ching wars because their artillery was greatly superior to that available locally. This was of course long before 1776,

    Without such Chinese inventions as blast furnace, cast iron, so-called Bessemer Steel Process, coking-coal, deep drilling technologies for natural gas and oil etc, the Industrial Revolution in Europe would have been impossible.

    Most if not all of these were developed long before the period in question.

    My limited understanding of the issue is that most of the great inventions of history came out of China up to about 1500. Verryy roughly speaking. But China seems to have basically stopped such innovation then, not only relative to the explosive growth of Europe that began around then, but even absolutely. In 1500 China was far ahead of Europe, but it appears to have reached something like stasis, maintaining but not innovating, essentially living on its capital. Meanwhile Europe surged ahead in rate of growth, catching up to and eventually passing China.

    The question, of course, is two-fold. Why did Europe suddenly generate by far the greatest burst of innovation and creativity in human history? Why did China abruptly stop or at least drastically reduce its own innovation and creativity?

    Ran across an interesting article on the subject you might like.

    https://www.cairn.info/revue-l-europe-en-formation-2013-4-page-3.htm

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @tamo
  491. Anonymous[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Logan

    Why did Europe suddenly generate by far the greatest burst of innovation and creativity in human history?

    Maybe because the burden of religion was suddenly lifted?

    • Replies: @Logan
    , @gmachine1729
    , @Logan
  492. Logan says:
    @Anonymous

    Possibly. Though I think without qualification this lumps all religions in together as equally detrimental to human development.

    Western Christianity was uniquely suited to act as the incubator for science and secularism. It accepted that God had created the universe with rules in place that He only occasionally violated. Hence those rules could be discovered and exploited. This is a very different mental universe than one like Islam where the universe acted as it did because Allah chose at each moment for it to do so.

    Europeans of the early modern period were Sons of Martha. Well, some, enough, of them were.

    http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_martha.htm

    For a Muslim to be a Son of Martha would be heresy and apostasy.

    • Replies: @Talha
  493. @Anonymous

    Haha Philippe Rushton thinks it’s due to the Black Death, which wiped out a quarter of Europe’s population, which drastically improved the gene pool. Also transmission of knowledge and inventions from China and the Middle East to Europe via the Mongol invasions.

    • Replies: @Logan
  494. Logan says:
    @Anonymous

    One of the other problems with this POV is that the burst of creativity started quite some time before religion even began loosening its grip on society in Europe. The point at which you start that burst is highly debatable, but many run it back to 1400 or even earlier.

    The Reformation did not loosen the grip of religion, exactly. In some ways and in many areas it made that grip stronger. Actual de facto religious toleration began first in Netherlands and then in Britain, but any date you assign to it is clearly well after the burst of creativity started.

    Also, a great many of the earlier participants in this burst were very religious indeed, it simply wasn’t the noble secular humanists against the wicked obscurantist religious people.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  495. Talha says:
    @Logan

    This is a very different mental universe than one like Islam where the universe acted as it did because Allah chose at each moment for it to do so.

    But that did not stop Muslim scientists, of which there were plenty of discovering the rules in the universe. They made advances in science, astronomy, mathematics. Why? Because if you study Islamic theology you come to understand that it indeed does not give the universe an existence independent at any moment from the will of God (in fact its existence at every moment is subsumed by the Divine willing into being and sustaining it), but it also recognizes that it is the locus of the Divine attribute of Wisdom. This entails that one can indeed map out patterns (or the Sunnah of God – His normal pattern and practice) in the phenomenal world – which is the essence of what the scientific endeavor is.

    But I agree, there is no way that the world of Islam would have hatched secularism.

    For a Muslim to be a Son of Martha would be heresy and apostasy.

    According to the poem, the Sons of Martha seem to be heretics even from the Christian perspective and it would seem now that most Christians are cultural Christians and the religion is bleeding numbers faster than any other.

    Chucking religion confers many, many advantages to a society. What’s not clear are the disadvantages that come with the package…we’re about to find out.

    Also, a great many of the earlier participants in this burst were very religious indeed, it simply wasn’t the noble secular humanists against the wicked obscurantist religious people.

    Great point; Roger Bacon comes to mind.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  496. Logan says:

    I will happily agree that Islam led the world in science for centuries. I could have made my point more clearly.

    The specific Muslim tradition that trying to determine natural laws is an infringement on the freedom of Allah to do as he darn well pleases is from a tradition (supposedly) started byAl Ghazali around 1100. His book, The Incoherence of Philosophers, became increasingly influential and eventually accepted as Truth.

    IOW, Muslims were engaged in science but abandoned it. More accurately, they gave up the idea of the pursuit of knowledge outside religion and even potentially in conflict with it. Like the Greeks before them, they didn’t develop the true scientific method and thus didn’t really have any “science” in the proper meaning of the term.

    This thread is about China, so I should note that while they were incredibly inventive in many ways, they never got anywhere near true science.

    • Replies: @gmachine1729
    , @tamo
    , @Bliss
    , @Talha
  497. Logan says:
    @gmachine1729

    While we don’t have as many records, I know of no reason the think the Black Death didn’t hit China as hard as Europe. It certainly hit Muslim lands hard.

    And just how, exactly, does killing half of the population of Europe “improve the gene pool?” It makes the pool smaller, is all.

    BTW, just listed to a long podcast about the BD in Europe. Recent research keeps revising the toll upward. The present consensus is somewhere around 50% to 60%. There is a consistent pattern whereby the better the records for an area, the higher the death toll.

    • Replies: @gmachine1729
  498. tamo says:

    What happened to my reply to Logan ?

  499. @Logan

    This thread is about China, so I should note that while they were incredibly inventive in many ways, they never got anywhere near true science.

    That’s very true. And the Greeks were the forerunners, if not the pioneers, of that.

    Chinese were practically very impressive. Even in mathematics, they calculated pi to 7 decimal places as early as the 5th century. But they never discovered rigorous theoretical science. There is not even any documentation of knowledge of round earth with solid scientific evidence to back it up in ancient Chinese texts, and this fundamental reality of physical nature was not really known to them until contact with the Jesuits in the 16th or 17th century. Yes, Zheng He and his crew did sail to Africa in the 15th century, and I wonder if they knew of round earth but didn’t document it in a durable way.

    This really smart guy who happens to also be Jewish suspects that East Asians on average have lower aesthetic discernment. Yes, scientific achievement is not just about IQ, there’s also a taste and vision component involved in it.

    As for modern times, I did go on recently the Wiki page on history of quantum field theory, and I saw photos of three East Asians who are real geniuses, scientific giants. They are Shinichiro Tomonoga (renormalization), Chen-Ning Yang (Yang-Mills theory), and Yoichiro Nambu (spontaneous symmetry breaking). So the raw talent is definitely there, but surely, China and its cultural derivatives achieved minimally in real science before substantial contact with the West. There was though https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seki_Takakazu.

    Ironically though, Chinese and East Asians in general have an instinctive sanity and realism on HBD lacking in whites who determine the Western mainstream culture. So I would bet that China will be the first to find the genes for IQ and actually make use of that knowledge.

    • Replies: @tamo
  500. @Logan

    Almost certain it did not really hit China. Otherwise, we’d see something about that in the Chinese history books, which we do not. One may even hypothesize that it was the Mongols who spread it.

    And just how, exactly, does killing half of the population of Europe “improve the gene pool?” It makes the pool smaller, is all.

    By weeding out the weak.

  501. tamo says:
    @Logan

    By 1750, Europe was still behind China in technology, size of economy, living standards. I’ll list the major technological areas where China was ahead. Metallurgy—- Europe didn’t get the advanced Chinese technologies such as Bessemer Steel Process, Siemens Steel Process until the late 19th century. Shipbuilding— Chinese batten sail was superior to the Western sail. Chinese sailors could control their sails from the deck with windlass and halyards, on the other hand, Western sailors had to climb along yard-arms to furl and unfurl the canvas sails ( a dangerous task), the Chinese batten sails could sail with more holes in them and were more aerodynamic than the Western ones. Chinese Ships also had advanced fenestrated rudder and balanced rudder that Europe didn’t adopt until the 19th century. China fitted it’s ships with bulkheads and watertight compartments long before Europe adopted them in the 19th century.

    [MORE]
    Mining and deep-drilling———————— Chinese could drill a lot deeper than Europeans for minerals and gas and oil Textiles——- Hargreaves’ spinning jenny and Kay’s flying shuttle in the late 18th century were the inferior copies of preexisting Chinese weaving machines. Printing——– Jesuits in China thought Chinese printing press was better than European one and also Chinese color printing was superior to European one. Only in the 19th century, European printing press became faster than Chinese one. Porcelain——- Europe started producing porcelain only in the 18th century after a French Jesuit transmitted the Chinese technological secret to Europe. but Chinese porcelain was of better quality. You are right saying such Chinese technologies as blast furnace, cast iron, coking coal that played crucial roles in the Industrial Revolution were introduced to Europe long before 1750 but such technologies as Bessemer Steel Process, Siemens Steel Process, deep -drilling for gas and oil were introduced from China to Europe in the 19th century. Agricultural technology——— Such Chinese advanced technologies as row cultivation, horse- drawn hoeing, winnowing machine, multi-seed drill, heavy moldboard cast iron plow were only adopted in the 18th century. By adopting these advanced Chinese technologies , Britain could bring about it’s own agricultural revolution. So now I can say with reasonable confidence that China was STILL ahead of Europe in technology in 1750.
    It’s a gross fallacy that China under Ming and Qing dynasties were stagnant. On the contrary, they had vibrant economies backed by huge market-oriented domestic economy and healthy foreign trade. Although Ming government issued edicts restricting most of foreign trade for a while, Chinese sea merchants bribed officials to ignore the edicts and continued to trade with foreign countries and eventually Ming government rescinded the edicts. Also under Qing dynasty, foreign trade expanded much more. According to Andre Gunder Frank, a prominent economic historian in the 20th century, about 40% of the silver mined in the Americas from the 16th century to the end of the 18th century ended up in China due to the insatiable European hunger for such Chinese products as silk, processed tea, porcelain, lacquer ware. Such economic historians as Kenneth Pomarenz, Bin Wong said that the 18th century Qing dynasty economy was much more market-oriented than European one. For more information about Qing economy,please read THE GRANDEUR OF THE QING ECONOMY by professor Madeleine Zelin. China was SO FAR ADVANCED SO EARLY ON by making a lot of ground-breaking technologies and in the later dynasties, even though they came up with their own breakthrough technologies, they concentrated MOSTLY steady, incremental improvements on their preexisting technologies. I definitely think that’s not being stagnant but making steady progresses. So China didn’t suddenly stop progressing in Ming and Qing times and Europe didn’t suddenly pop up to overtake China. For backward Europe, it was an about 600 year-long arduous journey starting in about the early 13th century with likes of Marco Polo and the Crusades. Through these endeavors ,Europe got advanced technologies from both China and Islamic civilization. The 600- year long European journey to overtake China finally culminated in the Industrial Revolution and the rest is history. The cannon and mechanical clock are very few cases of the ORIGINAL Chinese technologies were REINTRODUCED to China by Europe. China invented the mechanical clock with the INVENTION OF THE ESCAPEMENT MECHANISM for EXACT TIMEKEEPING that was run by water power ( this was NOT a water clock) but many centuries later Europeans developed more advanced mechanical clock worked by weight or springs. When Jesuits introduced the European mechanical clock,they not only made mechanical clocks themselves but also transmitted the advanced European technology to Chinese craftsmen. By the late 18th century, the Chinese clock makers in Guangzhou could make mechanical clocks that were as good a British ones at two-thirds of the cost. China invented not only gunpowder but also gun, cannon, rocket including multi-stage one, mines (both land and sea). hand grenade. But by the early 16th century, Europe produced better cannon and musket. So Chinese hired European cannon experts such as Jesuits (what a surprise !!!). These Europeans transmitted their technologies to the Chinese cannon makers who combined both Chinese and European techniques to come up with excellent cannon. By the late 16th century,the Chinese cannon were as good as European ones.This was the case until the late 18th century. China didn’t have any problem defeating Portuguese or Dutch naval land forces in the 16th and 17th centuries. Also in the 17th century, China defeated Russia decisively in border conflicts culminating in the Treaty of Nerchinsk of 1689 according to which Russia had to cede a lot of territory to Qing dynasty. Europeans gave up challenging militarily China in the 18th century. Also some of the Jesuits were optics experts and transmitted their knowledge to Chinese craftsmen who then made excellent telescopes. Why DON’T rich and advanced Americans generally want to go to backward countries ? Why are a lot of people from backward countries dying to come to rich and advanced America? If you can answer these questions. then you can answer why rich and technologically advanced Chinese didn’t want to go to backward Europe but on the other hand, poor and technologically backward Europeans were dying to go to rich and advanced China before the Industrial Revolution . You just remember that Columbus found the American continent by accident when he really wanted to find a new route to China and the Spice Islands. As you can see China was like America before the Industrial Revolution. By looking at the things going on now, there is a good chance that China will be the technology superpower AGAIN by 2040.

    • Replies: @Logan
  502. tamo says:
    @Logan

    SCIENCE itself was born in the 11th century in the Islamic civilization with the birth of the EXPERIMENTAL SCIENTIFIC METHOD ( all ancient civilizations were pre-scientific) The backward Europeans translated a very large amount of Islamic scientific writings into Latin and extensively studied them thus bringing SCIENCE to Europe. Specially Alhazen’s masterpiece, BOOK OF OPTICS which is recognized as the first scientific treatise in the world by many scholars, had profound effects on many European scientists. Without the BIRTH of SCIENCE in the Islamic civilization in the 11th century, there would have been no Scientific Revolution in the 17th century or modern science in the 18th and 19th centuries in Europe.

    • Replies: @Karl
  503. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Logan

    Protestantism encouraged and taught a whole bunch of people, including women, how to read and write, a major advantage when it comes to inventiveness and creativity, etc.:

    Religious Competition and Reallocation:
    The Political Economy of Secularization in the Protestant Reformation

    http://www.jeremiahdit