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  1. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Aya Sophia:

    Good that A. Sophia has been returned to religion, to be a place of worship.

    Now, return the Arabic script. God and beauty.

    Return Donmeh Shlomo Ataturk’s bones to the Rothschilds, his master.

    He served his purpose. Lasted maybe 100 yrs.
    Shit always passes.
    Time to flush Shlomo Ataturk and his memory.

    His grave marker should read: “He killed 6,000,000 Christians.”

    • Replies: @Rico
  2. Talha says:

    Pray for the people of Beirut, there was a massive explosion at one of its ports. They are still trying to figure out what happened. Suffice to say, it will take a while for them to recover…

    Peace.

    • Agree: SeekerofthePresence
    • Replies: @Art
    , @jsigur
  3. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Possible causes of Beirut explosion

    #1 reason should always be the fakes south of the Litani.

  4. Art says:
    @Talha

    Hear hear — Prayers for all the people of Lebanon – I hope that this a true accident. The bad guys Turkey and Israel could take advantage of this.

    p.s. Wonder what Trump was thinking and saying with his statement using the words of “attack and bomb?” What outcome was he reaching for? It could not be benevolent.

    • Replies: @Art
  5. Art says:
    @Art

    p.s. Taxi of Plato’s Guns has not posted for almost 12 hours — very strange!

    https://platosguns.com/2020/07/31/america-chooses-a-new-mideast-policeman/

  6. @Wizard of Oz

    ‘… Denying that access should be considered an admission of guilt by Beijing…’

    I’m not as convinced as you appear to be of China’s guilt here.

    However, of all the possible explanations of this virus and the events surrounding it, the possibility that it was an inadvertent release from a Chinese germ warfare lab seems to me to remain the most plausible.

    It only makes me more suspicious that it’s so insistently ruled out. It really would be neat if there could be a free and frank discussion of all the possibilities and how we might determine which one is the true explanation.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  7. aandrews says:

    What the hell?!

    Trump: “This May Be The Last Time You’ll See Me For A While”
    ZeroHedge
    Fri, 08/07/2020 – 10:10

    The comments were made during an address Trump gave at the Whirlpool Corporation Manufacturing Plant in Clyde, Ohio.

    The context of the remarks was an executive order that will mandate U.S. government agencies purchase all essential drugs from American sources.

    Trump blamed the American political class for the fact that drugs are cheaper to buy in other countries Canada even if they are made by the same company.

    Trump: “I have a lot of rich enemies. You won’t see me for awhile.” pic.twitter.com/8AmaiENezf
    — Mike ░▒▓█ マイケル (@northexpedition) August 6, 2020

    “So I have a lot of enemies out there. This may be the last time you’ll see me for a while. A lot of very, very rich enemies, but they are not happy with what I’m doing,” said Trump.

    “But I figure we have one chance to do it, and no other President is going to do what I do. No other President would do a favored nations, a rebate, a buy from other nations at much less cost. Nobody. And there are a lot of unhappy people, and they’re very rich people, and they’re very unhappy,” he added.

    In terms of who Trump was identifying as his “enemies,” the president made reference to wealthy anonymous “middlemen” who skim profits from pharmaceutical sales.

    “They are so wealthy. They are so wealthy,” said Trump. “Nobody has any idea who the hell they are or what they do. They make more money than the drug companies. You know, in all fairness, at least the drug companies have to produce a product, and it has to be good product.”

  8. @Colin Wright

    No certainty at all.of Chinese guilt. Just seeing whether Ron will modify his original speculation.

  9. aandrews says:

    Italy: Woman had Her 4 Dogs Eaten by Migrants
    Daily Stormer
    August 9, 2020

    Il Giornale recently interviewed an Italian woman who has a farm there, where she used to raise pigs, sheep and chickens. But not any more.

    Il Giornale:

    The pigs are all I have left. They ate four of my dogs. They skinned them and then roasted them on the embers“.

    In 2018 Rosy filed a complaint with the carabinieri: she had 25 chickens, but they have eaten them all. They didn’t touch the pigs, however, because Muslims don’t eat swine flesh.

    In this video, she shows the journalists around her farm, including the mess left by the invaders.

    […]

    • Replies: @aandrews
  10. aandrews says:
    @aandrews

    An oversight tidbit.

    This case was raised on an Italian TV discussion program recently. The commentators actually laughed at the woman’s experience, mocking her as a xenophobic oik: “Oh, the immigrants ate my dogs!” You can pick up on the body language even if you don’t understand Italian.

    I hope this doesn’t sound Marxist, but journalists are an enemy class.

  11. The good ol’ City of London, aka ’The City’ – (1 mile² of banksters HQ’s) boys at it again!

    Jul 2, 2020 Bank Of England To Keep Venezuela’s \$1 Billion Gold Stash

    A UK court has ruled that Juan Guaidó is the “constitutional interim President of Venezuela”. A court in London has ruled that a \$1 billion Venezuelan goldstash locked in the Bank of England should not be used for coronavirus relief efforts as:

    “it no longer recognizes Maduro as president of Venezuela.”

    NOTE: The BoE holds the gold reserves of 30 other countries (old data)
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverwilliams1/2020/07/02/bank-of-england-to-keep-venezuelas-1-billion-gold-stash/#753ab6aefd56

  12. Huh.

    ‘…Earlier in the week, Mr. Trump had a tense phone call with the casino magnate Sheldon G. Adelson, whom the president upbraided for not donating more to support his re-election, according to a person familiar with the call. Mr. Adelson and his wife donated \$10 million to a super PAC supporting Mr. Trump in 2018, and have each written checks for nearly \$600,000 during this cycle…’

    Others who have reported this have carefully avoided speculation, but Mondoweiss has a go at reading the tea leaves:

    ‘* Trump could now be less likely to support Benjamin Netanyahu’s hope to illegally annex up to 30 percent of West Bank Palestine.

    * Trump could also be less likely to let Israel sucker him into starting a conflict with Iran.

    This mildly optimistic scenario is based partly on a revelation in the memoir of John Bolton, who served as Trump’s national security adviser before turning against him. Bolton says that the U.S. was all set to launch air strikes against Iran in June 2019, but Trump called off the attack at the last minute, concerned that it might kill 150 Iranians. Bolton (who Trump appointed apparently to please Adelson) was disgusted, but the episode may show that the president has to be prodded into using violence…’

    I’d guess that Adelson and Trump are at a bit of an impasse. After putting up with his dicking around for three and a half years, Adelson wants to see Trump actually start that war before he hands out any more cash. On the other hand, Trump knows perfectly well that while he needs the cash for the election now, if he starts the war before the election, he’ll lose it for sure.

    • Agree: Talha
  13. Talha says:

    Oop…lady might “hang herself” accidentally…

    And gosh darn it, before a trial can take place, too! Shucks!

    Peace.

  14. To put the notion that Russia influences our elections into perspective…

    Not that she’s my favorite lady anyway, but Ilhan Omar has raised \$471,000 for her campaign. Her challenger for the Democratic nomination received 3.2 million — almost entirely from large, out-of-state donations. Moreover, her Republican ‘opponent’ (the Republicans have no chance in the district) received two million — almost all of which went to attack ads targeting Omar.

    Omar’s leading by 37% anyway — but there’s definitely a moral there.

    It’s going to make your life really, really hard if you displease Israel.

  15. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    … And who would think of/approve such a doll for kids?

    Kids Doll’s CONTROVERSIAL Button and Sounds

    CEO:

    • Replies: @Patagonia Man
  16. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Biden + Harris:
    less than zero + less than zero = the laughingstock of history.

    Some, many sacrificed for this.

    • Replies: @Patagonia Man
  17. Ilhan Omar wins her primary by 28,000 votes.

    It’s mildly amusing to do a search on ‘Ilhan Omar primary 2020.’ There’s so much abuse and predictions of her impending defeat that the casual observer might be forgiven for assuming she’d lost. The swine really pulled out all the stops on this one.

  18. Also amusing. All four of the candidates in the Democratic primary in Ilhan Omar’s district for whom a picture is available are black.

    The district is 63% white.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  19. @anon

    Now, this is gonna blow – BIG TIME!

    President Trump Lists The Criminals At Press Conference; Possibly Treason (2:03)

  20. @anon

    @anon[327]

    Does it really surprise you?

    From the Talmud we read:

    “A girl over 3 years and a day is unclean”

    “A boy over 9 years and a day is unclean.”

    Goys, of course.

    Its been the goal of zionist-jews in the US for quite some time now, at least since the 1980’s, to legalize pedophilia.

    They even have organizations to advocate for this.

  21. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Recommended, appropriate change:

    Hannah and Esther for Becky and Karen.

  22. @Colin Wright

    My immediate response is that someone cleverly stitched it up for Ilhan Omar, the Zionist lobby having failed to put heavy hitters on to the job. Right?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  23. @Patagonia Man

    Please identify some good sources with reliable evidence for you last par.

  24. @Patagonia Man

    Reliable sources/links/evidence for your last par please.

  25. @Wizard of Oz

    ‘My immediate response is that someone cleverly stitched it up for Ilhan Omar, the Zionist lobby having failed to put heavy hitters on to the job. Right?’

    I’m sure the bulk of the whites remaining in Omar’s district would view voting for a fellow white with mild distaste.

    On the other hand, at least the Zionists weren’t able to snow them.

    Sometimes, both sides are unappetizing — in fact, lately both sides usually are. However, I can put up with one more Congresscreature of color — and it is nice to see the Zionists going away, frustrated and gnashing their teeth.

    …and materially, that’ll be five million dollars less they’ll have to spend pursuing their evil designs elsewhere. It would not have been a good thing if they had been able to make an example of Ilhan Omar.

    • Replies: @Talha
  26. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    …and materially, that’ll be five million dollars less they’ll have to spend pursuing their evil designs elsewhere.

    Sure about this? I mean, the advertising dollars get paid to networks to air ads during their programming and the networks are pretty much Zionist-controlled (or at least controlled by people very chummy with Zionists) so it seems like recycled dollars, no?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  27. Tacit admission from prominent Dems donor Soros that BLM protests / street riots, aka color revolution, is taking place in the ol’ US of A.

    Soros confident Trump will be ‘transitory phenomenon’
    https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/511680-soros-confident-trump-will-be-transitory-phenomenon

  28. @Talha

    ‘Sure about this? I mean, the advertising dollars get paid to networks to air ads during their programming and the networks are pretty much Zionist-controlled (or at least controlled by people very chummy with Zionists) so it seems like recycled dollars, no?’

    Well, there would at least be marked dilution. After all, a great deal of the money is ultimately paid out in wages, rents, etc — presumably even the most fervent Zionists among the recipients devote some of their income to groceries and various other non-Zionist expenses. Then too, not all the net income of all the ad agencies would go to furthering Zionism. Somebody, somewhere, is going to decide to buy a bigger boat instead.

    There is hope. They won’t get to use all the money again.

    • Agree: Talha
  29. First they toast their own drone, and now this:

    IDF missile fired at Gaza hits kibbutz cowshed

    Commenter Robert Martin remarks:

    sounds like BullS#%T to me

  30. Mazel Tov to the UAE and Israel for making peace. Exchanging diplomats, business, tourism and air travel. I hope it is a domino effect and the begging of all sane Arab neighbors for finally recognizing the State of Israel as a good partner economically and technically for moving the ME forward to peace and prosperity. Everyone realizes that the Palestinians never wanted peace or a state only the defeat of Israel. Leave the Jihadist Islamist in the dust to rot. Turning the page.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-mideast-breakthrough-11597360774?mod=opinion_lead_pos3

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @AaronB
  31. @Fran Taubman

    Meh.

    The Emirates was always known as something of a 51st state, so this is just formalizing a relationship that’s existed for quite awhile.

    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190211-ex-saudi-intelligence-chief-reveals-secret-israel-saudi-relations/

    The UAE is mentioned among Gulf states whose intel agencies have been working in tandem with Mossad since 1994, seven years before the 9/11 attacks.

    Non-story.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  32. oh Gawd! What did the American people ever do to deserve this career criminal?

    ‘You Should Certainly Consider That’: Clinton Reflects on Serving in Next President’s Administration

    “A former first lady of the United States and Senator from New York state, Hillary Clinton worked alongside presumptive 2020 Democratic presidential”

    https://newstral.com/en/article/en/1157976934/-you-should-certainly-consider-that-clinton-reflects-on-serving-in-next-president-s-administration

  33. Israel’s Leading Demographer Warns of post-COVID-19 Exodus by Young, Educated Israelis

    Prof. Sergio DellaPergola says high unemployment rate, coupled with political discontent, could drive young Israelis away; challenges government’s rosy coronavirus aliyah forecast

    Barring a dramatic economic recovery, Israel will face a massive post-pandemic wave of emigration, the country’s leading demographer warns.

    In an interview with Haaretz, Prof. emeritus Sergio DellaPergola also described recent predictions of a coronavirus-related spike in immigration to Israel as fanciful.

    Such predictions have been published by the Jewish Agency, the Immigrant Absorption Ministry, Nefesh B’Nefesh – the organization responsible for immigration from North America – and the Knesset Committee for Immigration, Absorption and Diaspora Affairs.

    “I pray that I’m wrong, but I’ve been doing population projections for 40 years – and, unfortunately, I’m usually right,” said DellaPergola, who worked at the Hebrew University and is widely regarded as the dean of Jewish demographers. “It looks like all those making these predictions are operating on the basis of hopes and fears rather than rationality,” he said.

  34. AaronB says:
    @Fran Taubman

    I told ya Fran not all Muslims are Jihadi Islamists like Talha and AnonStarter and Kevin Barrett. There are good people in the Muslim world and good developments are afoot.

    Unz review is increasingly an irrelevant hate site.

    • Agree: Fran Taubman
    • Troll: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  35. @AnonStarter

    It is a strategic game changer you can deny it all you want but there is not going back. The Islamic Arab world (Suni) is going to make peace with Israel en mass, sans a deal with the Palestinians. Once the economy, technology, medical and educational advancements are shared watch the ME bloom beyond your wildest imagination. The Islamic Jewish merger will be the most powerful healing the world has ever known.
    Suni Arabia knows the Palestinians have always been a ruse a fig leaf for Islam’s refusal to accept Judaism as an equal. Now they need the Jews to advance and the Jews need Islam to recognize them as equals. It is going to happen. It is a done deal. What happens to the Shia’s? Well hard to say but neither Iran nor Hezbollah are much loved. Neither is doing very well. Lebanon will eventually reject Hezbollah and become a secular democracy. Hezbollah is nothing but missiles stacked a mile high aimed at Israel. Yesteryear. Old news.
    This hatred is over. Finished. It was never a real fight about land for people. Never.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  36. @AaronB

    Amazing how many on the left, Jihadis and the EU are denying the facts right in front of them. Just amazing. The entire ME show is about to change. The three Abrahamic religions must coexist in that region and not only survive but thrive. Jihadist are so yesteryear. I can see Hezbollah fading to black. No one wants their BS anymore, with their stupid missiles. If Hezbollah and Iran want war, it will mean their destruction. They have to know that.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  37. AaronB says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Eh, Jihadi Islam has no place in the modern world.

    The Muslim Jihadis of Unz are relics of a bygone era.

    Probably half the Muslim world will remain dysfunctional and Jihadi, and half will move past the Jihadi phase and cooperate with Israel, etc.

    Btw, did u get a load of that taxi character! Just when I thought the Unz anti-Semites couldn’t get any worse! You have to laugh 🙂

    Why is a “new addition” to Unz never a nice, friendly, kind, well adjusted person lol 🙂

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  38. @AaronB

    I agree. The Taxi guy/gal is vile and not worthy of being a commentator. If unbridled hate is the only writing you bring to the review what is the point? Anyone can write like that. A third grader. Sub standard on UR.
    It is and will be fun to see the Jew haters with their Palestinian victim hood, Israelis kill and starve babies go down. It is over. Really over. All those countries want to move forward. Israel is the key. Once it starts, it will be overwhelming.
    They have to dismantle and disarm Hezbollah. The last piece of the puzzle. They probably have a plan to take out Hezbollah that involves a coalition including people inside Lebanon. Those missiles have to be destroyed.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  39. @Fran Taubman

    ‘It is a strategic game changer you can deny it all you want but there is not going back…’

    Sure it is. Everything is going to be all different from now on. The Lebanese are going to evacuate Lebanon so Israel can have it and all the Palestinians are going to realize their destiny is to serve Jews for all eternity like Aaron says and all the American Jews are finally going to actually emigrate to Israel and life in Israel will become wonderful and the entire Security Council of the UN will just resign and sign their functions over to Fran Taubman and…

    …or maybe there’s been no real change at all, and a week from now people will barely remember it happened.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @AnonStarter
  40. @Fran Taubman

    ‘@AaronB’

    Are we really going back to the Fran ‘n Aaron give each other hand jobs in public show?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  41. @Colin Wright

    …or maybe there’s been no real change at all, and a week from now people will barely remember it happened.

    Just look at Egypt, a country that’s been at “peace” with Israel since the late seventies, receiving massive sums of American money in return for this détente.

    Yet this situation depends entirely upon severe suppression of the Egyptian people. Even mild criticism of the government incites suspicion that the critic is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. If we looked solely at the ruling elite, the impression would be of a nation-state that has ostensibly normalized relations with Israel. The Arab street, however, reveals an entirely different scene.

    The only kind of people who think this news heralds a sea change in Israel’s relations with the Arab world are much like cossetted children, long sheltered from the reality on the ground.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Talha
  42. @Colin Wright

    No one gives better hand jobs then you, Talha and his Akhi Anon Starter. Those two fawn over each other like lovers, and you are not far behind, a soon to be third Akhi. The three Akhi amigos.

    You are such a doofus Colin.

  43. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    It’s always good to remember that various local Muslim sultanates also had treaties (and sometimes [gasp] strategic alliances) with the various Latin Crusader states.

    Wa salaam.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  44. aandrews says:

    https://altcensored.com/about/

    YouTube limits access to videos that are neither illegal, nor violate their own Terms and Conditions or Community Guidelines.

    “Limited state” videos are placed behind a warning message, cannot be shared, monetized or easily found, and have likes, comments, view counts and suggested videos disabled.

    YouTube removes videos that violate their ever-changing and arbitrarily enforced Community Guidelines, while Creators increasingly “self-censor” trying to avoid channel strikes and terminations.


    altCensored.com is an unbiased community catalog of 65470 limited state, removed, and self-censored YouTube videos across 6335 monitored channels, of which 1006 have been deleted and 2027 are being archived in case of deletion.

    Find videos and channels using the search bar. Download videos with “right mouse button click” inside the video window or use the “Download Torrent” link. Channel and Video RSS Feeds ( ) contain torrent links to easily download multiple videos. Embed videos in any website exactly like YouTube.

    Email new channel suggestions to [email protected].

    • Thanks: Colin Wright
  45. The status quo is unsustainable and the resistance will not defeat Israel without starting a world war and armageddon. Peace and prosperity are the only way forward. Hezbollah is hated in Lebanon.
    Those stuck in the all or nothing bring Israel down are lost in the sauce. The Arab street want change in their governments and their economic prospects. Jihadist are losers, they cannot deal with peace, it is like losing a job. People inside Iran want regime change. The Shia’s resistance cannot plug holes in with proxy wars. It all ended with the death of Soleimani. The resistance will go down hard.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  46. @Talha

    ‘It’s always good to remember that various local Muslim sultanates also had treaties (and sometimes [gasp] strategic alliances) with the various Latin Crusader states.’

    The Crusader States didn’t exactly make themselves welcome in the neighborhood either, but they seem to have managed to do a better job than Israel in some respects.

    At any rate, visitors from the West used to accuse the Crusaders of having ‘gone native.’ No one’s ever accused the Zionists of having ‘gone native.’

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  47. @Fran Taubman

    ‘The status quo is unsustainable and the resistance will not defeat Israel without starting a world war and armageddon…’

    Israel is being defeated. You’re not there. Aaron’s not there. Moreover, not only are your children not there, but you don’t even have children.

    Israel’s like stamp collecting. It’s a hobby without a future.

  48. @Colin Wright

    At any rate, visitors from the West used to accuse the Crusaders of having ‘gone native.’

    It appears quite a few Crusaders assimilated rather well, many of them returning to their native land all the wealthier for the experience.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  49. Anyway, perhaps more substantial.

    ‘U.S. Loses Iran Arms Embargo Vote at UN as Putin Pushes Summit on Nuclear Deal
    Russian President proposes summit of world leaders to avoid ‘confrontation’ over U.S. threat to trigger return of all UN sanctions on Iran

    The United States lost a bid to extend a UN arms embargo on Iran on Friday as Russian President Vladimir Putin proposed a summit of world leaders to avoid “confrontation” over a U.S. threat to trigger a return of all UN sanctions on Tehran.’

    — Haaretz

    US hegemony is eroding. As US hegemony erodes, Israel’s prospective lifespan shrinks.

    Peace Treaty with the UAE or no.

    • LOL: Fran Taubman
  50. Again, the Crusader States really do offer a parallel.

    It’s been convincingly argued that ultimately, what killed the Crusader States was simply declining interest in them in the West. Sure, there continued to be upsurges of support and new crusades, but over the long haul, every year saw fewer Crusaders coming to the Holy Land, fewer settlers, less money.

    The same is inevitably going to happen to Israel — is happening, in some respects. Fewer and fewer in the West will care what happens to her. But she’ll still be hated by her neighbors and subjects…

    Demographically, the last big shot in the arm Israel got was the exodus when the Soviet Union collapsed. That was the last of the big reservoirs of overseas Jews with any interest in living in Israel. Politically, this year is seeing — for the first time — favorites of the Israel Lobby going down to political defeat in the US, and incumbents on its hit list — Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib — prevailing regardless. You can say the emperor has no clothes and live now. Diplomatically, Israel has cornered itself into seeking to bring about a war between the US and Iran. That one’s a lose-lose. Either the US finally stands up to Israel — and in doing so, learns she can — or she doesn’t, and the resulting fiasco of an evil and futile war will end US support for Israel completely.

    Finally, nearly half the Jews in Israel want to leave. Some — like our very own Aaron — already have left.

    It’s over. It’s unclear whether this is 1150 for the Crusader States, or 1220 — but it’s over.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  51. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Hmmm, I think the Crusades are a poor analogy. That’s like saying Britain today is capable of doing what she could during her imperial Victorian heyday.

    During the Crusades Islam was still in its heyday, a rising civilization, technologically and intellectually superior to Europe.

    Islam today is an intellectual and technological backwater, a civilization that has been declining for centuries, and that is tearing itself apart.

    Its possible Britain will arrest its decline and restore its Victorian vitality and recreate its empire – but its probably not wise to put your hopes on it. Likewise its probably not wise to put your hopes on what the Islamic works was like a thousand years ago.

    But if it gives you comfort, go for it.

    As an aside, it is nothing short of astonishing that European knights at the end of long supply lines and coming from a technologically inferior civilization were able to carve out kingdoms for a few hundred years in the region.

    Oh, and one more thing Colin, 60% of Israel’s Jews are native to the region – as for the Ashkenazim, they are mixing with them, and soon there will be no difference. Besides, they eat Humus – can’t go much more native than that.

    Have a great weekend, Colin. Weather is getting nicer here, the heat is subsiding. I think I’m gonna go backpacking – sleep on to of a mountain counting the stars.

  52. @AaronB

    ‘Hmmm, I think the Crusades are a poor analogy. That’s like saying Britain today is capable of doing what she could during her imperial Victorian heyday.

    During the Crusades Islam was still in its heyday, a rising civilization, technologically and intellectually superior to Europe…’

    Not exactly. A good deal of the reason the First Crusade (which was the only one that worked) succeeded was that the Muslim world had just been disrupted by the irruption of the Turks. In fact, the First Crusade — and the Second — basically had to fight their way through recently-founded Turkish Emirates and things.

    As to ‘technological and intellectual superiority’ that might be valid if the comparison is to Western Europe — I’m skeptical about the accuracy of such a claim when it comes to Byzantium — which was still very much a going concern.

    ‘…Oh, and one more thing Colin, 60% of Israel’s Jews are native to the region – as for the Ashkenazim, they are mixing with them, and soon there will be no difference…’

    Except (a) few of those Jews emigrated to Palestine as a matter of authentic choice, (b) they are utterly alienated from the Ashkenazim, and (c) they’re only from ‘the region’ of Palestine if you define that ‘region’ as extending from Yemen to Morocco. It’d be kind of like seeing a Latvian as born with a birthright to Ireland — and collecting garbage in Dublin because it’s his dream.

    Think maybe he’d rather move to New Jersey — and will, if things get bad enough?

    I’m here, Aaron. I appreciate the continuing pretexts to retail and develop the argument against Israel. You and Fran keep posting.

  53. @AnonStarter

    ‘Besides, they eat Humus

    You don’t say?

    I believe they do treat their African and Asian Jews rather poorly. It’s odd that Aaron would take pride in the fact, though.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  54. @Colin Wright

    But …

    Aaron tells us that Israel is the place to be, the nation from whose illustrious font effervesces the inimitably undiluted elixirs of equality, love, and humus.

    Is Aaron just errin’?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  55. Major poll: About half of Israeli Jews want to expel Arabs

    Itamar Eichner | Published: 03.09.16, 20:59

    About half of Jewish Israelis believe Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, according to an extensive survey conducted by the Pew Research Center and whose results were revealed on Tuesday.

    Pew surveyed more than 5,600 Israeli adults in face-to-face interviews from October 2014 through May 2015 in what it described as a first-of-its-kind poll of Israelis on a wide range of religious, social and political issues.

    Nearly four fifths – 79 percent – of Arab Israelis say there is major discrimination against Muslims in Israeli society. Jews believe the opposite. The vast majority, 74 percent, says they do not see much discrimination against Muslims in Israel.

    At the same time, public opinion among Jews is divided on the question of whether Israel can be a national home for the Jewish people while maintaining the Arab minority in the country. Nearly half of Israeli Jews, 48 percent, say Arabs should be deported or exiled from Israel. Religious people tend to be particularly supportive of such a move: about 71 percent agree that Arabs should be expelled.

    Secular Jews tend to go the other way: 58 percent opposes the idea of expelling Arabs, including 25 who are completely opposed. But some secular Jews agree – about one third would support expelling Arabs from Israel.

    Seems to be a direct correlation between Jewish religiosity and racism, though secular Jews have a fairly sizeable constituency of racists as well.

  56. @AnonStarter

    ‘… the nation from whose illustrious font effervesces the inimitably undiluted elixirs of equality, love, and humus…’

    As a fairly serious gardener, I have to admit this isn’t completely unattractive.

    • LOL: AnonStarter
  57. @AaronB

    ‘… Have a great weekend, Colin. Weather is getting nicer here, the heat is subsiding…’

    ? The high this afternoon in San Rafael was one hundred degrees.

    …there’s something insulting about an interlocutor who lies so casually.

  58. @AnonStarter

    ‘Seems to be a direct correlation between Jewish religiosity and racism, though secular Jews have a fairly sizeable constituency of racists as well.’

    Actually, the interesting thing about this is how — at least on the face of it — relatively inoffensive the Palestinians are.

    The last I looked, the last Jewish civilian who was killed in a terrorist attack within Israel proper died in 2016 (key words there, Fran: ‘civilian,’ and ‘within Israel proper’.)

    Compare and contrast, say, with Cannon Hinant et al, et al, et al. Blacks routinely and commonly slaughter whites and others — often for obviously racial motives. Yet most American whites — and above all, Jews — would never dare say a word about expelling our beloved black fellow citizens.

    But here’s an absolute majority of Israeli Jews going absolutely apeshit on the same theme. This probably holds even when they’re the same Jews. Certainly, while Aaron may find it rhetorically convenient to deny it, he’d be among the expellers in Israel. At the same time, one can’t picture Aaron at a party here in the US giving utterance to similar utterances about blacks. Hey, here in the US, blacks could rape his mother and he wouldn’t peep.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  59. @AnonStarter

    ‘Seems to be a direct correlation between Jewish religiosity and racism, though secular Jews have a fairly sizeable constituency of racists as well.’

    I suspect at least much of the difference is that secular Jews are more aware of and more concerned to conform with the general shibboleths of Western political correctness.

    However, if it ever came down to practical action, I suspect there wouldn’t be much material difference in what fate either group would inflict on the Palestinians if geopolitical developments ever gave Israel a truly free hand.

    Both would promptly drive four million Palestinians into the desert. The secular Jews would probably subsequently express a pious wish that some international body would send the survivors some bottled water.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
  60. @Colin Wright

    Actually, the interesting thing about this is how — at least on the face of it — relatively inoffensive the Palestinians are.

    Palestinians on the Israeli side of the wire are in a bit of a bind. They have little choice but to adapt to the atmosphere of ethnoreligious animus in which they find themselves, since the alternative is to place themselves and their family at greater risk by moving either to the West Bank, where the PA acts as an unrestrained truncheon for Israel, or Gaza, which Israel routinely punishes for not acting as its truncheon.

    This explains why, when polled about remaining in Israel, most Palestinian residents prefer to do so, being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    It’s kind of like being given the choice between living among a lot of nasty neighbors and living among largely better neighbors, yet in far greater danger of losing your life. Hobson’s choice.

    Compared to the Jewish-black dynamic in America, there certainly is a flagrant double standard at play. The moment blacks become wise to Jewish influence, however, they’re insta-schvartzes.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
  61. @AnonStarter

    Here’s an interesting claim.

    ‘…Even though Israel is surrounded by Arab countries, rules over millions of Palestinians, and that over half of the Israeli Jewish population originates from Arabic-speaking countries, more literature is translated from Swedish into Hebrew than from Arabic each year…’

    Mondoweiss

    However one chooses to explain that, it implies that Israeli Jews exist in almost hermetic isolation from their neighbors. This is after seventy years of existence as a state and a good hundred years after a significant Zionist community appeared in Palestine.

    Has any society that behaved in such a fashion ever endured?

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  62. Miro23 says:

    Seriously OT but this is an open thread. Honest question. Why are so many people getting tattooed? I personally have no desire to have a tattoo so what am I missing?

    • Replies: @Patagonia Man
    , @AaronB
  63. @Miro23

    It can be a so-called rite of passage, i.e., initiation for some males.

    It can also be cultural – think Pacific Islanders, for instance.

  64. AaronB says:

    A few of the Muslim ambassadors are very close to me. I visited a few of the Muslim countries [with whom] we don’t have diplomatic relations yet. We cooperated against Hamas. So you can do a lot with those countries, and I will tell you a secret. Most of them support Israel and even admire Israel. When I speak with them over breakfast in my residence and we discuss the Middle East, they admire what we achieved in a short 72 years. I think it’s only a matter of time until we will be able to publicly expose the cooperation between Israel and those moderate Arab countries,” he declared.

    Ambassador Danny Damon, returning from.his post at the UN.

    Like I said, not all Muslims are Jihadis like Talha and AnonStarter, there are many good and kind and just people in the Muslim world, and for at least part of the Muslim world, they are gaining the upper hand.

    Of course, the Talha side of the Muslim world is not about to disappear, and will continue to be dysfunctional for some time.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  65. AaronB says:
    @Miro23

    To add art and color to one’s life. To not be “strait laced”. To rebel against bourgeois norms which emphasize boring functionality over color and art.

    Many societies and cultures have traditionally had tattoos. The Maoris covered themselves in tatoos.

    I my self don’t have a tatoo, but I certainly understand why some people do.

  66. @Colin Wright

    Has any society that behaved in such a fashion ever endured?

    None that I’m aware of.

    Israel does devote quite a bit of effort to training operatives that can easily assimilate in Arab or Muslim societies, however, and this requires not just an academic knowledge of Arabic (or another language) but a familiarity with regional dialects, idiomatic expressions, etc. Quite a few easily pass as indigenous folk, though a discerning fellow can weed them out.

    They’re crucial to Israel’s objective of “containing” the Muslim world — to paraphrase Aaron — a Muslim world that is simultaneously backwater and powerless yet ominously threatening.

    I suppose such self-contradiction is fairly endemic to Israel. After all, it appeals to ancient Scripture to prove its divine entitlement to land, yet refuses to honor the terms by which that land is held, kind of like an apartment tenant who violates line after line of his rental agreement but expects not to be evicted as a result.

    It really suffuses the ethos: hasbara colliding headlong with reality so routinely and resoundingly. It’s the reason the usual suspects despise this site, since it’s one of the few popular venues that serves to expose the tangled web they weave.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  67. I suppose such self-contradiction is fairly endemic to Israel. After all, it appeals to ancient Scripture to prove its divine entitlement to land, yet refuses to honor the terms by which that land is held, kind of like an apartment tenant who violates line after line of his rental agreement but expects not to be evicted as a result.

    Isn’t that pretty much everybody, and every country. I do not see any differences in nationalities fighting and protecting their territory. None

    They’re crucial to Israel’s objective of “containing” the Muslim world — to paraphrase Aaron — a Muslim world that is simultaneously backwater and powerless yet ominously threatening.

    A Muslim world……..

    I suppose such self-contradiction is fairly endemic to ( Israel.) the Muslim world. After all, it appeals to ancient Scripture to prove its divine entitlement to land, yet refuses to honor the terms by which that land is held, kind of like an apartment tenant who violates line after line of his rental agreement but expects not to be evicted as a result.

    Holiness and biblical entitlement are always in the eyes of the beholder. In short Jews think Muslims are A*****holes. Muslims think Jews are A****holes. Right now we have the guns and the ammunition. Like Talha says you guys have to saddle up and fight and get the job done. Then you will own the land. Right now we own it. I do not see any moral superiority or right or wrong. We fought !we captured !we won! All other commentary is silly. You are always trying to denigrate Judaism to prove how we have no rights to the land. Who cares? Watch Bahrain and Qatar all meet in Jerusalem for a big pow wow. Shortly before the years end then KSA. Israel is not going anywhere, neither are the Jews. Enjoy your fairytales.

  68. Never thought I’d cheer on the cops, but…

    Portland police rout Antifa micemen.

    Antifa and Black Lives Matter — bringing the rest of America together.

  69. @AaronB

    ‘Ambassador Danny Damon, returning from.his post at the UN…’

    He’s your ambassador. You could at least spell his name right.

    As to ‘exposing the cooperation’; that’s a typically moronic Israeli impulse. Think Great Britain ever ‘exposed’ anyone who cooperated with her back in the day?

    It’s why you’re going to lose. You’re not fit to rule.

  70. @AnonStarter

    ‘None that I’m aware of.

    Israel does devote quite a bit of effort to training operatives that can easily assimilate in Arab or Muslim societies, however…’

    That’s just it. Close-up, Israel can be quite talented.

    Strategically, she’s moronic. It’s like Japan having brilliantly-trained carrier pilots and excellent torpedoes — too bad the big numbers say you’re sure to lose.

    Anyway, it’s nice when Israel takes pride in her total air supremacy, etc. She doesn’t recognize none of that will matter — so we can all be happy.

    A win-win. Isn’t that nice?

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  71. Isn’t that pretty much everybody, and every country.

    No, not really.

    First of all, you have to provide an exact corollary to Israel: sacred text in which the boundaries of a land promised by God to the faithful are explicitly defined; contract stipulations which, if violated, render the agreement between Owner and tenant null and void; and evidence of said violation. All of these conditions must be met.

    However imprecise, the closest analogy would be Saudi Arabia, and I certainly have no problem with the prospect of supplanting its current leadership with one more deserving of it.

    Otherwise, there simply is no corollary.

    In short Jews think Muslims are A*****holes. Muslims think Jews are A****holes. Right now we have the guns and the ammunition. … We fought !we captured !we won! All other commentary is silly.

    Reductio ad absurdum hysterics are more the stuff of schoolyard tempests in a teapot. If that’s what you’re aiming for, then bravo. You’ve achieved it in spades.

    As for its power of persuasion … well, I’ll let you figure that out.

    You are always trying to denigrate Judaism to prove how we have no rights to the land.

    No, that’s not so.

    I merely refer you back to your own Book. For example, Deuteronomy 28: 15-68.

    If this constitutes “denigrating Judaism,” you might want to reconsider your religious conviction.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  72. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Isn’t that pretty much everybody, and every country. I do not see any differences in nationalities fighting and protecting their territory…’

    Yes. The difficulty is it’s not your territory.

    You might die to protect Long Island and your poodles. For Israel you’d give what? Fifty thousand dollars?

  73. @Colin Wright

    Strategically, she’s moronic.

    Well, she didn’t get to where she is today by being moronic.

    But she’s also cognitively dissonant about herself in a manner that epitomizes foolishness. If more Arab/Muslim-dominant states openly normalize relations with Israel, don’t be surprised if they’re thinking along the lines of Michael Corleone.

    • Thanks: Larchmonter420
  74. @Fran Taubman

    Fran said: “Holiness and biblical entitlement are always in the eyes of the beholder.”

    oh dear!

    Someone hasn’t heard of the Three Oaths.

    Orthodox jews who are who are strongly anti-Zionist, view as not being fulfilled, this midrash from the Talmud, which states that:

    God adjured 3 oaths upon the world – two of which pertain to Jews, viz., the Jews were:
    – sworn not to forcefully reclaim the Land of Israel, and
    – not to rebel against the other nations. [emphasis mine]

    Your mob were supposed to be given the land of Israel – not take it forcefully by:
    – killing Palestinian people,
    – confiscating their property without compensation,
    – razing their towns and villages to the ground, and
    – expelling ~750,000 of them at the time of the Nakba – and then refusing them the Right of Return.

    It pays to understand your own religious teachings Fran.

    If your religion is telling you to kill other human beings – you need a new religion.

    • Thanks: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  75. @AnonStarter

    First of all, you have to provide an exact corollary to Israel: sacred text in which the boundaries of a land promised by God to the faithful are explicitly defined; contract stipulations which, if violated, render the agreement between Owner and tenant null and void; and evidence of said violation. All of these conditions must be met.

    I merely refer you back to your own Book. For example, Deuteronomy 28: 15-68.

    We always go in the same circles you and I. Yes you are correct the battle is religious between Islam vs. Judaism. I get your point in spades. We are full of errors and are null and void in the eyes of the divine and the decree that follows our fallen souls.

    So it is not incumbent for me to prove what Judaism is or isn’t or what the boundaries in the text say about Israel, or whatever else you ask me to defend about Judaism. It is a waste of time. It would be like me asking you about Mohammed’s ride on the winged horse to heaven that made Jerusalem have any significance in Islam. Like quick lets make the temple mount holy to Islam. So Al Aqsa became the furtherest mosque Islam felt the need to build a mosque on the Jewish temple mount to dominate. Could you guys find a mosque a little closer to the closest mosque near Mecca? No physical location is spoken about in the Koran.

    Most people are ready to coexist as equals, but don’t let them stop you. Stick to your view point that we Jews are the worst people in the universe, with an evilness so outrages it is just a matter of time before the entire world stands up and rights the wrongs of Islam and the Palestinians, by taking down the Zionist and their power structure. Stay with that as long as it makes you feel that we Jews are going down. But at this point in time, you the Palestinians, and the Jihadist are the losers.

  76. @Patagonia Man

    Your mob were supposed to be given the land of Israel – not take it forcefully by:
    – killing Palestinian people,
    – confiscating their property without compensation,
    – razing their towns and villages to the ground, and
    – expelling ~750,000 of them at the time of the Nakba – and then refusing them the Right of Return.

    Oh please, look at the partition of India and Pakistan and the death and destruction that followed. Millions lost their lives. How many times did Poland change hands, and people were not allowed to return to their homes, Belarus? Lithuania? Are you familiar with the history of the world? Pretty violent. Jews bought land in Palestine from the Ottomans fair and square. As many Jews were kicked out of their homes with no compensation from Muslim lands as Arabs from Palestine. This situation could have been reconciled fairly with compensation a million times over. But the reality is no one wants the situation to end fairly for the Palestinians. It was never about the Palestinians. It is about getting rid of the Jews as religious coequals with self determination and control of their religious sites. Islam wants control hegemony over all of Arabia with Jews being subservient to them. Nothing else will suffice.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  77. @Fran Taubman

    ‘..Most people are ready to coexist as equals, but don’t let them stop you…’

    Like, say, Jews and Palestinians in Israel? You look forward to the day armed Arab police arrest and interrogate Jewish criminals?

    …or would that be an exception?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  78. AaronB says:
    @Fran Taubman

    It is about getting rid of the Jews as religious coequals with self determination and control of their religious sites. Islam wants control hegemony over all of Arabia with Jews being subservient to them. Nothing else will suffice.

    We don’t have to speculate about this.

    Talha freely admits that he does not want to kick Jews out of Israel – they just can’t be independent and must be ruled by Muslims.

    One of the cool things about Muslims is that they are so far in their own world that they don’t understand the rest of the world has completely different standards than them, so they’ll just blurt out exactly what’s on their mind.

    The BBC did this documentary on the Gaza Protests, and the Palestinians were just totally honest in the most refreshing way – they said, yes, we’re trying to tear down the fence, kill Israeli soldiers and then kill civilians when we make it to the villages a mile or two way. This isn’t a protest, its an invasion.

    One after another, everyone interviewed just said exactly what was on their mind without trying to hide. It was great.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  79. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Like, say, Jews and Palestinians in Israel? You look forward to the day armed Arab police arrest and interrogate Jewish criminals?

    You are aware that a substantial portion of the Israel Police are Arab, and regularly arrest Jewish criminals? Yes?

    You are aware that the general in command of the Golani Brigade, one of Israel’s most beloved infantry brigades, is an Arab Druze? Yes?

    You are aware that Arabs serve in the infantry and Border Police, and regularly participate in police action against unruly Jewish settlers?

    You have such a goofball vision of Israel. Its like you simply don’t want to learn anything about it that will change the bizarre image in your mind.

    I think you see Israel as this place full of skinny European Jewish accountants with glasses who never go out into the sun living in temporary cities that are barely built up eating European food and completely separate from Arabs doing only brain work, and who can easily just be uprooted and moved to New York. Oh, and a few Sephardi Jews living in tents eating mud and cleaning the toilets of the skinny Jewish accountants.

    Of course, you can easily discover what Israel is really like through the magic of YouTube and TV – but that would spoil the fantasy.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  80. anon[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @Fran Taubman

    It would be like me asking you about Mohammed’s ride on the winged horse to heaven that made Jerusalem have any significance in Islam.

    No, it would NOT be like you asking about “Mohammed’s ride on the winged horse to heaven”, you stupid barking jew cunt, because:

    i) “Mohammed’s ride on the winged horse to heaven” is mentioned in the Muslim Qur’an and it is precisely for this reason that al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem is the third sacred place in Islam.

    ii) “Mohammed’s ride on the winged horse to heaven” are not the words of a cunting covenant that “the LORD commanded” Mohammed to make with Muslims.

    iii) “Mohammed’s ride on the winged horse to heaven” are not the words of a cunting covenant, not a compact, not a contract, nor is it a binding agreement that can ever be breached or broken.

    iv) “Mohammed’s ride on the winged horse to heaven” are not the words of a cunting covenant, a compact, a contract, nor a binding agreement that will doom Muslims for all eternity should it ever be breached or broken.

    v) Deuteronomy 28:15-69 will be your cunting jew doom according to your own fucking jew “law” contained in your holy fucking jew torah.

    No physical location is spoken about in the Koran.

    Al-Aqsa Mosque is “spoken about in the Koran”, however, as is the Holy Land.

    How many times is Jerusalem mentioned in your holy cunting jew Torah, you stupid barking jew cunt?

    [SPOILER ALERT: Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in the cunting jew torah, AKA “the Law” in judaism, and the Pentateuch, or five books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.]

  81. @AaronB

    ‘… Talha freely admits that he does not want to kick Jews out of Israel – they just can’t be independent and must be ruled by Muslims.

    One of the cool things about Muslims is that they are so far in their own world that they don’t understand the rest of the world has completely different standards than them, so they’ll just blurt out exactly what’s on their mind…’

    You’re too funny. You say that Muslims only want Jews in Palestine if they agree to be ruled by Muslims is a completely different standard than the rest of the world.

    Never mind that you only agree to let Muslims be in Palestine if they agree to be ruled by Jews.

    …so how far would you say that you are in your own world? Is that a cool thing about Jews?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  82. @AaronB

    ‘… I think you see Israel as this place full of skinny European Jewish accountants with glasses who never go out into the sun living in temporary cities that are barely built up eating European food and completely separate from Arabs doing only brain work, and who can easily just be uprooted and moved to New York. Oh, and a few Sephardi Jews living in tents eating mud and cleaning the toilets of the skinny Jewish accountants…’

    Well, you exaggerate, but…

  83. @anon

    ‘… Al-Aqsa Mosque is “spoken about in the Koran”, however, as is the Holy Land…’

    Most of this gets back to Islam largely seeing itself as Judaism and Christianity stripped of the accretions and corruptions that had accumulated over the millennia since God gave the Chosen People the true Quran.

    Of course Jerusalem and the Temple in it is the birthright of all the true believers. It’s just that the truest believers are the Muslims. As I understand it, Al Aqsa was intended as a rebuilding of the Temple. The Muslims took great care to position it in exactly the right place.

    Now, if Jews would just think of Muslims as very reformed Jews, many problems would be solved.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  84. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Ok, but Israel doesn’t go to Lebanon and Syria and say, you guys can totally live here, you just have to be ruled by Jews, ya can’t rule your self.

    That would pretty absurd.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  85. @AaronB

    ‘Ok, but Israel doesn’t go to Lebanon and Syria and say, you guys can totally live here, you just have to be ruled by Jews, ya can’t rule your self.’

    That would pretty absurd.’

    But there we go. Israel has spent fifty years trying to destroy Lebanon, and had a go at effectively annexing the bit south of the Litani from 1982 to 2000.

    She still has the Golan Heights.

    So it would appear Israel wants the inhabitants of at least parts of Lebanon and Syria to live under Jewish rule.

    Of course, it all started out with the Jews not wanting any of it all as an independent state. None at all. Independent State? No sirree.

    Then you wanted just half of Palestine. Then 80% of it. Then all of it. Then all of it plus bits next door.

    Is there some reason to think it would end? What would you suggest would make it end? Abject surrender and see what you decide to take?

    Well, I think we can all agree that’s a fine formula for life. I’ll have to apply myself. Just give me all I want, and there’ll be no problem.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Colin Wright
    , @Art
  86. @anon

    i) “Mohammed’s ride on the winged horse to heaven” is mentioned in the Muslim Qur’an and it is precisely for this reason that al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem is the third sacred place in Islam.

    Never once mentions the location of the furthest mosque as Jerusalem. Never. Al Aqsa could be in Alaska. No one saw Mohammed leave the temple mount on a winged horse. No one ever saw Mohammed leave or enter Jerusalem dead or alive. Never. You can call me Jew cunt all you want the facts are the facts. Two Jewish temples were there each for 400 years.

    Have some cookies and milk for the winged horse fairy tale that no one saw.

    Never mentioned in the 5 books. LOL. Where the fuck do you think they were headed to when they left Egypt got the 10 commandments and stayed in the desert for 40 years. The story ends when they hit Cannon led by Joshua and David established the city, Solomon built a temple ….. It is accepted history. The 5 books ended there but not the story or the history. Jerusalem is mentioned 699 times in the bible. 0 in the Koran

    • Replies: @Art
  87. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Ok, but we both know the ideal for Israel is not to rule over Muslims.

    Israel doesn’t mind having a certain amount of Muslims, but the whole point of a Jewish state is for Jews to govern themselves. Too many Muslims ruins that.

    I mean, yes, we can talk about how evil Israel is in your mind in a whole bunch of ways, but I don’t think wanting to rule others can plausibly be one of them. Destroying Lebanon, ok, that’s not desiring to rule them. Nor is annexing the Golan.

    I don’t think any Israeli has ever expressed an actual desire to rule over others – it isn’t part of the tradition or religion. The classic Jewish aspiration is to be independent in their own land. Ruling over others would be regarded as a nightmare.

    Whereas for Muslims, it is a part of both the tradition and the religion. Historically, Muslims were empire-building conquerors who ruled others. That’s part of their historical tradition. And religiously, though opinions differs on whether there is an actual commandment to conquer others, there is certainly a copious amount written in the expectation that Muslims will in fact be ruling others.

    Of course today, Muslims can barely govern themselves, but I have noticed that for Muslims, it’s always 8th century Baghdad – mentally they are an on eternal time loop. It’s part of the “retreat into fantasy” that observers of Muslim culture have noted for a long time, and is a big part of why they constantly lose and fail to modernise.

    So since its practically still the 8th century and the Caliph will come riding with his armies any day now, why shouldn’t Talha dream of ruling Jews once again? 🙂

  88. @Colin Wright

    ‘… Well, I think we can all agree that’s a fine formula for life. I’ll have to apply myself. Just give me all I want, and there’ll be no problem.’

    …hey, wait! There really isn’t a problem.

    I already took it, and you couldn’t stop me, so it must be right. It’s an outrage that you object. An outrage!

  89. Art says:
    @Colin Wright

    The JQ is a major concern of humanity.

    For a thousand years the Muslims had a workable formula for the Jews – they let them function as a people – but kept them out of government.

    With our current deteriorating unfunctional world situation, we must consider doing the same.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  90. @AaronB

    ‘Ok, but we both know the ideal for Israel is not to rule over Muslims…’

    That’s a bit like saying the ideal of Nazi Germany was not to rule over Jews. So the Nazis were good?

    That you wanted to expel the Muslims (and the Christians) rather than rule over them is not an improvement.

    In point of fact, that’s what caused the first stirrings of popular discontent in Palestine. The Palestinian peasantry could handle Jews buying out their traditional landlords. Yes, Palestine has had different rulers over the millenia.

    The uproar came when it transpired that the Jews intended not just to collect rent, but to drive the Muslims and Christians off the land entirely. That was a first.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  91. @AaronB

    ‘Of course today, Muslims can barely govern themselves…’

    Turkey, Malaysia, Iran, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, and Tunisia come to mind.

    But there. You go right ahead and denigrate all Muslims. What can be we say about all Jews?

  92. Art says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Have some cookies and milk for the winged horse fairy tale that no one saw.

    Oh my god — too funny — the above comes from a Jew who claims that the God of the universe gave them land on our Earth.

  93. @AaronB

    ‘Of course today, Muslims can barely govern themselves…’

    Let’s talk about the one example we have of Jews governing themselves.

    Corruption? Treatment of minorities? Crime? Sexual abuse statistics?

    Israel, in spite of its small size, is the leader in the global illegal organ trade in absolute terms. Relative to its size, it’s the leader in the white slave trade. For a decade in the first part of this century, it was defrauding investors in the West — primarily in the United States — of ten billion a year via the binary options scam. It routinely steals military secrets and technology from the US and sells them to the highest bidder.

    It has gone to war with every one of its neighbors — and attacked the US, Tunisia, Iraq, and Iran besides. It has staged terrorist attacks in at least Egypt and Iran and assassinations and kidnappings around the planet. It bombs Syria weekly.

    It still can’t survive without constant subsidies and diplomatic and military support from the US.

    The place is a sexually depraved, corrupt, criminal, parasitic enterprise that apparently feels compelled to be continuously at war. And you have the gall to criticize Muslims?

    Jesus. Look in the mirror.

  94. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    … the whole point of a Jewish state is for Jews to govern themselves.

    That is not the whole point of a Yid state.

    What was wrong with areas given to Yid in past?

  95. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    The majority of the land the Jews bought was empty. It was the policy of the Zionists to especially seek out empty land, often malarial, poor land, and buy that as much as possible. It wasn’t only much cheaper, but much easier to buy, and modern drainage and farming methods made the Jews confident they could make the land flourish.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Art
  96. @Fran Taubman

    We always go in the same circles you and I.

    No, not really.

    You’re implying that we engage in regular discussion, which simply isn’t the case. Do you even remember when it was that I last responded to you before you offered your hasbara on the Emirates four days ago? Think hard, now. I know it’s not going to be easy to answer that question.

    Quite obviously, I’ve removed you (and everyone else) from my ignore filter. Full disclosure: I did this quite some time ago, so I’ve seen a lot of your content to date that, for absence of merit, just hasn’t been worth the effort. (Looks as if this correspondence will soon end as well.)

    Thus far, in the space of two posts, I’ve challenged three of your claims:

    1. That the UAE’s official normalization of relations with Israel heralds a sea change in relations between Israel and the Muslim world;
    2. That other nations are like Israel in that they claim divine entitlement to land via Scripture while failing to honor the explicitly stated stipulations of that entitlement; and
    3. That I am “always trying to denigrate Judaism.”

    You’re welcome to convince me with something other than irrelevancies and histrionic hand-waving, of course, but if past history is any indication, you’re probably more interested in dizzily pursuing the outline of those vicious circles you can’t seem to escape.

  97. @Art

    ‘…For a thousand years the Muslims had a workable formula for the Jews – they let them function as a people – but kept them out of government.

    With our current deteriorating unfunctional world situation, we must consider doing the same…’

    There are some differences between ourselves and the traditional Muslim states.

    For one, the Muslims formally recognized the existence and autonomy of the Jewish and Christian communities. So yes, ‘they’ could be kept out of government, etc. Most occupations were dominated by one group or another. It was accepted.

    We don’t — or won’t — engage in the equivalent. We don’t legally mandate that all Irishmen must be firemen and all all firemen must be Irishmen, all Japanese must be dentists and all dentists must be Japanese, etc. The idea of making any occupation the monopoly of a particular group or of restricting any group to that one occupation would be anathema to us.

    Secondly, our society is vastly more complex than the Islamic states of centuries ago. It’s not just a matter of government; what about media, etc? To cite one example, lately I’ve been thinking about how the development — and increasing dysfunction — of our modern legal system seems to owe much to its domination by Jews and their particular intellectual tendencies.

    So it would be nice if we could just say ‘no Jews in Congress’ and our problems would be solved. But I’m not really sure we could say that — and if we did, I’m not sure it would solve the problem.

    • Replies: @Art
  98. @AaronB

    ‘The majority of the land the Jews bought was empty. ‘

    Nu? You may well buy three lots in my town and two of them could be empty.

    If my house is on the third, and you tell me to move out, I still have a problem. In fact, if I see this happening to others, and I have no way of preventing it from happening to me, I might get very upset even before it does.

    The Zionists did not start moving into Palestine and say, ‘it’s okay — we’re not going to make anyone leave.’ Just the opposite — everything they bought immediately became ‘Jews only.’

    That was why there was an Arab revolt. Lots of Jews coming into Palestine meant lots of suddenly unemployed, homeless peasants or peasants threatened with the same.

    …and for the overwhelming majority, their fears turned out to be very justified, didn’t they?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  99. @AnonStarter

    ‘… You’re welcome to convince me with something other than irrelevancies and histrionic hand-waving, of course, but if past history is any indication, you’re probably more interested in dizzily pursuing the outline of those vicious circles you can’t seem to escape.’

    Fran goes to Zionist websites, reads the propaganda, and comes back here and regurgitates it in large chunks.

    You might as well try arguing with a parrot.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  100. @AnonStarter

    No bother. You missed the umbrella to the entire discussion describing the circular argument. You insist you are coming up with new challenges for me to convince you. Like you have put up a response and I
    you’re probably more interested in dizzily pursuing the outline of those vicious circles you can’t seem to escape.

    I will try one more time to explicitly state my over point, and then you should resume your ignore filter status.

    You are engaged in challenging the Jewish claim to the land of Israel using religious arguments. Covenants and entitlements based on scripture etc. My point is that it is a mute argument, we have conquered the land which we lost. I am pretty sure that I am factually correct about current ownership. That you feel it is irrelevant is of no consequence to me. I gave you in comparison the Islamic claim that Al Aqsa was the location of Mohamed night ride to heaven on a winged horse. I think it is a fairy tale.

    I presented a tit for tat. I am also sure that the comparison is factual and reasonable.
    The other tow claims about UAE is a wait and see.

    Perhaps I misspoke by using the word denigrate. I should say you since I have started communicating with you have tried to disqualify Judaism and its holy sites which in your mind have been replaced with the Islam which is certified to be the final communication from the divine.

    My posts have been anything but factual straight up talk sans histrionics and dizziness. Pretty clear, concise and to the point rather brilliantly. Islam does not recognize Judaism as a valid religion, with valid land claims. I never used religious scriptures in my arguments to claim ownership of land.
    Never. I merely said that the Jewish claims were equally valid to Islamic claims or anyone’s claims.
    We won our claim. So you are engaged in an argument with yourself. Not me.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @AnonStarter
  101. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    The Zionists did not start moving into Palestine and say, ‘it’s okay — we’re not going to make anyone leave.’ Just the opposite — everything they bought immediately became ‘Jews only.’

    No, that’s pretty much exactly what they did. The early Zionists thought the locals would welcome them for bringing economic benefits to the area and helping modernize the region. They envisioned an era of cooperation and peace.

    Only bitter experience taught them what has been confirmed again and again – the Palestinian prefers his “pride” – his need to dominate Jews – to economic cooperation and benefits.

    From an economic standpoint, this could have been solved long ago. But as Hilaire Beloc observed a century ago, this is about the Muslim’s inability to accept the Jew as his equal.

    Sure, any Palestinian forced off his land even if it was legally purchased might feel resentment, depending on how common this was in the area at the time and what economic opportunities existed. But that was a tiny number of cases.

    In any event, it was always the Arabs who objected to Jews living among them on equal terms – to this day, Israel is not thinking about kicking Israeli Arabs out, but Palestinians insist all Jews must leave the West Bank. It was the Palestinian Arabs who massacred the ancient Jewish community of Hebron. And it was Jews going to live among Arabs in Hebron.

    The early Zionists envisioned a Jewish and Arab community coexisting on equal terms, two separate nations. It was the Arabs who decided they could not let the Jews self govern – because, you know, it’s still 9th century Baghdad and they’re still the conquering armies of the Caliph.

    It is, almost, cute – but all false pride and bravado leads to self inflicted suffering in the end.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @AnonStarter
  102. Art says:
    @AaronB

    Here is the real result of AaronB and Frannie’s mendacious comments. Witness Jew immorality.

    Israeli Settlers Uproot Olive Trees near Nablus

    According to local sources, a group of right-wing Israeli colonial settlers, accompanied by an Israeli military escort, invaded Palestinian land in the northern West Bank and uprooted dozens of olive trees.

    This attack came a day after the colonial settlers had tried to set up tents to begin establishing a new colony on the Palestinian farmland, but were driven out by local Palestinians.

    The land in question belongs to Palestinian villagers in the village of Asira ash-Shamaliya, to the north of Nablus city in the occupied West Bank.

    https://imemc.org/article/israeli-settlers-uproot-olive-trees-near-nablus/

    Jews talk with forked tongue.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  103. @Colin Wright

    Fran goes to Zionist websites, reads the propaganda, and comes back here and regurgitates it in large chunks.

    Maybe you should go on some websites just plain old history sites, before you post you more then ignorant answers about the history of Judaism, the history of Israel/Palestine. Current Palestinian life in Israel proper today, The religious goal of Islam vis a vie Judaism. The origin of Jewish liturgy and biblical text of the Ashkenazim as compared to the Sephardim and Mizrahi Jews.

    That is recommend google time for you. The fact that you think you know something to say that the Jews will pack up any minute and move to NY, is pretty remarkable. You once described Israel as

    Israel’s like stamp collecting. It’s a hobby without a future.
    Gee you think Bahrain and the UAE are stamp collectors. They need Israel economic models, technology, trade and tourism. No one over there are stamp collectors. Do you homework.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  104. @AaronB

    ‘No, that’s pretty much exactly what they did. The early Zionists thought the locals would welcome them for bringing economic benefits to the area and helping modernize the region. They envisioned an era of cooperation and peace.

    ‘Only bitter experience taught them what has been confirmed again and again – the Palestinian prefers his “pride” – his need to dominate Jews – to economic cooperation and benefits…’

    Hypocrisy segues into insanity.

    Those fierce bad Palestinians, bent on oppressing the poor innocent Jews…

    I suppose there is a sort of demented consistency there. The poor innocent Jews never do anything, do they, Aaron?

    ‘…It is, almost, cute – but all false pride and bravado leads to self inflicted suffering in the end.’

    ‘Self-inflicted.’ Ye gods. It’s almost as if it would have happened even if the Zionists had never descended at all.

    Should I be alarmed at the thought that you profess to believe this vicious tripe, or insulted that you appear to expect the reader to?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  105. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Never. I merely said that the Jewish claims were equally valid to Islamic claims or anyone’s claims.
    We won our claim…’

    No…actually, we won it.

    What happens when we pull the plug?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  106. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Biden does not lead in any poll.
    Has never led.
    No one outside the sewer
    will vote for this long-gone, dead log.
    Kamala doesn’t exist.

    The lie is to set the stage for complaining Nov 4
    after Trump wallops the two zeros by 35 points
    and 49 states
    or 50.

    Similar Topic:

    Yid never buys others’ land.
    Only steals.
    Then lies.
    Descendants continue the lies.
    Add a few new lies.

  107. @Art

    ‘Here is the real result of AaronB and Frannie’s mendacious comments. Witness Jew immorality.

    It’s one of the respects in which Zionism replicates Nazism.

    Just as — say — Poles had no rights relative to Germans, gentiles have no rights relative to Jews.

    • Replies: @anon
  108. Art says:
    @Colin Wright

    So it would be nice if we could just say ‘no Jews in Congress’ and our problems would be solved. But I’m not really sure we could say that — and if we did, I’m not sure it would solve the problem.

    To ostracize is the most moral thing we can do.

    A blanket ostracization of Jews is rational and doable. It has happened many times. It would change very thing for the better. We should start thinking about it.

  109. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    In this conflict, the Palestinians are the bad guys. They are the tip of the spear of the gigantic Muslim world against the tiny Jewish community in the region, seeking to impose Muslim rule on them. Their Muslim brothers have fought major wars against Israel on their behalf. They are the local foot soldiers of an empire, or a would be empire.

    That’s not to say the Jews never do anything wrong, just that on balance, they are the good guys here.

    Self-inflicted.’ Ye gods. It’s almost as if it would have happened even if the Zionists had never descended at all.

    Its self inflicted because they could just as easily have let the Jewish community keep the empty wasteland the bought and made productive and not insisted on ruling them. It didn’t have to go down this way.

    But ego always destroys us in the end.

    • Replies: @Art
  110. @AaronB

    They envisioned an era of cooperation and peace.

    Uhm … No.

    There’s just far too much evidence that gives the lie to this claim. See, for example, Rabbi Chaim Simons’ A Historical Survey of Proposals to Transfer Arabs from Palestine: 1895 – 1947 which is a nice complement to Nur Masalha’s Expulsion of the Palestinians: The Concept of “Transfer” in Zionist Political Thought, 1882-1948. After that, we’ve got Albert Einstein’s description of how zionists rejected equal political representation of Jews and Arabs in Palestine as early as 1928 — a claim corroborated by Ilan Pappe in A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples.

    Indeed, pride goeth before the fall.

    Your own, that is. Here, have a plate of humus on me.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @AaronB
  111. @Fran Taubman

    You missed the umbrella to the entire discussion describing the circular argument.

    No, your attempt to divert the discussion by means of a straw man can’t possibly be missed.

    You are engaged in challenging the Jewish claim to the land of Israel using religious arguments.

    Check again.

    I made a tangential reference to the claim in order to call attention to Israel’s habit of self-contradiction; it was not the focus of my commentary.

    You were incorrect in saying that other nations are equivalent to Israel with respect to its territorial claims and have done nothing to prove your assertion.

    I should say you since I have started communicating with you have tried to disqualify Judaism and its holy sites which in your mind have been replaced with the Islam which is certified to be the final communication from the divine.

    You need to return to what I’ve written, then. Neither you nor Aaron seem capable of really understanding my position on most subjects, preferring instead to falsify what I write.

    My posts have been anything but factual straight up talk sans histrionics and dizziness.

    Not so fast.

    The fact that, upon being reminded of the points I challenged, you willingly conceded two of them so easily is enough to show us that you originally allowed emotion rather than reason to guide your rhetoric.

    You see, Fran … It’s just that easy to know.

  112. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    Thanks.

    Obviously there were dissenting voices and lots of ideas were floated. I’m talking about the mainstream Zionist movement.

    As for equal representation, obviously the Zionists wanted a Jewish state – a self governing Jewish community, not a shared state which would leave them vulnerable to eventual domination – yet again – by a foreign group. The whole point was that finally Jews would control their own affairs. That does not preclude harmonious coexistence with the Arabs, who would have their own state in which they ruled themselves. The Arabs, as we know, had other ideas, and the rest is history.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  113. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    …gentiles have no rights relative to Jews.

    Humanity has no rights relative to Jew/Yid.

    A disease so deep.
    2500 years deep.

  114. Art says:
    @AaronB

    In this conflict, the Palestinians are the bad guys.

    Get a life — JERK!

  115. @Colin Wright

    There were never US boots on the ground defending Israel. Never. In 1948 there was no one helping the Jews. The Brits supported the Arabs. Russia supported the Arabs, Naser et al. were armed by Russia.

    Those fierce bad Palestinians, bent on oppressing the poor innocent Jews…

    You do not get it Colin and repeat idiotic jive. It was never the Palestinians or the Arabs that caused problems with the Jews, and the Jews never had problems with the Arabs. It was the Arab leaders, like Gamal Abdel Nasser, and Pan Arabism, and the grand mufti of Palestine Amin_al-Husseini, Hitlers best bud. It is never about the people it is about the religious dictators, and Jew hating fanatics. It is not the Iranian people, it is the ruling Mullahs.

    Maybe you have not noticed but there exist in Arabia and the Arab Muslim world, hatred of Jews because they are Jewish and not Muslim, and want their own state, and own their own holy sites.That is all they hate then for.

    • Replies: @Art
  116. @AaronB

    You’re most welcome.

    Obviously there were dissenting voices and lots of ideas were floated. I’m talking about the mainstream Zionist movement.

    Let’s see … Herzl, Weizmann, Zangwill, Syrkin, Ruppin, Motzkin, Ettinger, Jabotinsky, Rothschild, Warburg, Ussishkin, Sharett, Abraham Sharon, Katznelson, Tabenkin, Thon, Norman, Neumann, Weitz, Sieff, Frankenstein, Gollancz, Ben-Horin, Ben-Shem, and, of course, Ben-Gurion.

    All big name zionists, all documented as advocating expulsion of the Palestinians. Jews such as Ahad Ha’am were largely drowned out as the zionists’ foray advanced into Palestine.

    It’s also been firmly established that the public pronouncements of zionists differed radically from what they revealed via personal correspondence, private conversation, and journal entries. For a good example of this, read Simons’ chapter on Theodore Herzl:

    http://chaimsimons.net/transfer03.html

    That’s a major factor in accounting for apparently “dissenting voices.” Otherwise, cultural zionists had no great influence upon the Yishuv and the course it would take.

    Thing is, Aaron, you’ve got nothing to support your claims. If you did, we’d have seen it by now, but thus far, the single-most glaring characteristic of your statements is that you can’t back them up with any solid evidence. Whatsoever.

    Anyways, proceed apace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  117. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    The amusing thing about you people is you always have hunt in the dark shadows for scraps to build your narrative. It’s always some “secret” document you’ve unearthed and that goes against established facts.

    Whereas for me, all I have to do is go by the public pronouncements of Muslims 🙂 No apocryphal sites in dark corners of the web of dubious authenticity needed.

    I have read s bunch on early Zionist attitudes towards local Arabs. Anyone who is interested can do Google searches.

    Take Herzl. Don’t know about those letters – whether they are accurate or what the context might be from that very not neutral site, but according to Wikipedia these are Herzl’s public attitudes –

    Altneuland, Herzl did not foresee any conflict between Jews and Arabs. One of the main characters in Altneuland is a Haifa engineer, Reshid Bey, who is one of the leaders of the “New Society”. He is very grateful to his Jewish neighbors for improving the economic condition of Israel and sees no cause for conflict. All non-Jews have equal rights, and an attempt by a fanatical rabbi to disenfranchise the non-Jewish citizens of their rights fails in the election which is the center of the main political plot of the novel.[89]

    In Altneuland, Herzl outlined his vision for a new Jewish state in the Land of Israel. He summed up his vision of an open society:

    “It is founded on the ideas which are a common product of all civilized nations … It would be immoral if we would exclude anyone, whatever his origin, his descent, or his religion, from participating in our achievements. For we stand on the shoulders of other civilized peoples … What we own we owe to the preparatory work of other peoples. Therefore, we have to repay our debt. There is only one way to do it, the highest tolerance. Our motto must therefore be, now and ever: ‘Man, you are my brother.’”[91]

    Ill take that, thanks.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @AnonStarter
  118. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Gee you think Bahrain and the UAE are stamp collectors. They need Israel economic models, technology, trade and tourism…’

    Please. They need the support of the United States. Nobody would play with you if big brother didn’t make them.

  119. @AnonStarter

    ‘… You need to return to what I’ve written, then. Neither you nor Aaron seem capable of really understanding my position on most subjects, preferring instead to falsify what I write…’

    They don’t have much choice. When you’re trying to defend the indefensible, you do what you can.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  120. @AaronB

    ‘… … What we own we owe to the preparatory work of other peoples. Therefore, we have to repay our debt. There is only one way to do it, the highest tolerance. Our motto must therefore be, now and ever: ‘Man, you are my brother.’” …’

    There’s one the Jews really followed through on.

    • LOL: AnonStarter
  121. Art says:
    @Fran Taubman

    So Frannie — in Lawrence of Arabia, the Semite women lined up on the cliffs and shouted war hoops, cheering their men on to victory.

    Being a good Semite-women yourself – do you shout Jew war hoops for AaronB, cheering and sending him on to killing and maiming Palestinian men, women, and children?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  122. @Art

    ‘…do you shout Jew war hoops for AaronB, cheering and sending him on to killing and maiming Palestinian men, women, and children?’

    Now Aaron’s not going to do any such thing. He’s going to stay right here in the US and keep being an armchair Zionist.

    Fran’s going to stay too, of course.

  123. @AaronB

    The amusing thing about you people is that you always have to hunt in the dark shadows for scraps to build your narrative.

    “Dark shadows”? Here’s a list of publicly available references in Simons’ work:

    http://chaimsimons.net/transfer32.html

    The amusing thing about you people is that, when confronted with information you can’t easily dismiss, you always resort to argument ad hominem that’s pleasantly simple to eviscerate.

    Whereas for me, all I have to do is go by the public pronouncements of Muslims 🙂

    Yes, we’ve all seen just how faithfully you’ve represented my public pronouncements. 🙄

    Altneuland

    A novel? That’s your evidence?

    And you imagine that WP’s omission of the controversy surrounding the publication of Herzl’s diary is evidence that it never occurred? Is this what we’re to gather from your stellar analysis?

    Lord, what a nothingburger you serve.

    • Replies: @Talha
  124. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    Yes, we’ve all seen just how faithfully you’ve represented my public pronouncements. 🙄

    LOL! Why are you still engaging with this guy? Speaking of public pronouncements, homeboy said on an exchange with Colin (I told Colin I felt like punishing myself so I decided to see what they were exchanging blows over on another thread):

    By shrinking its borders and rolling back its imperialism, the Muslim world will be demonstrating an appropriate humility and willingness to peacefully coexist with others.

    So this must be OUR new goal – the general rolling back of Muslim borders and the shrinking of the Muslim world to its natural place in Arabia.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-109/#comment-4028571

    “Our” new goal…you think Israel is going to do this? Nah, it’s a whole hell of a lot of “let’s YOU and HIM fight” using the royal “we” while pretended to be willing to make any sacrifice for an effort that will require millions of young men willing to die.

    Now those public pronouncements are far more extreme than anything any notable Zionist Neocon has stated; Bolton, Perle, Ledeen, etc. you name them.

    Yet, you and I are supposedly a “foreign Islamist extremist” (https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-109/#comment-4031784)…yeah, sure pal. And I’m figuring he is still trying to convince people that people like you and me are some version of Daesh or Al-Qaeda; “Jihadi Islamist”, “Islamist extremist”, etc. Seriously, how many people do you think are convinced by that? I mean, sure that might get a lot of play on comment board at jihadwatch or something – those guys love that kind of thing, but here? Really? I think it just shows how desperate their position has become among people who aren’t already hyper-Neocon Zionists.

    Do yourself a favor – up to you – but, I’d say, put him on the ignore list and save your energy for people who are worth the effort.

    Wa salaam.

    [MORE]

    My brother and I were blessed to have experienced a watershed moment in life. We washed, shrouded and buried our father this week. I cannot have imagined having paid some stranger to do it. My brother led the janazah prayer. It was a very visceral experience. I haven’t wept like this in years…little things still remind me of him. Makes one re-evaluate one’s priorities and what they plan to prepare for their passage into the next world.

    One thing I regret – and maybe you can take a lesson from it – if you have elderly parents, make sure to ask them on a regular basis to forgive you your shortcomings in fulfilling their rights as parents – you never know when it will be the last time you are able to speak to them.

  125. @Colin Wright

    When you’re trying to defend the indefensible, you do what you can.

    When, through a torturous process of denial, a diary entry or letter correspondence that’s been openly published and publicly accessible for decades somehow becomes a “secret” document, that’s a pretty good indication of what you’re talking about.

    Most offensive to the intellect is the presumption that Jewish statecraft would never involve concealment of motive, as if playing it close to the vest is a tactic strictly reserved for Gentiles. So we’re supposed to conclude that “By way of deception, thou shalt do war” — the most accurate translation of Proverbs 24: 6 — is irrelevant to the way Jewish statesmen, including all of the early twentieth century zionists, did business.

    Right.

    Aaron should try his hand at selling oceanfront property in Kansas. He’s likely to enjoy more success.

  126. @Talha

    As-salaamu ‘alaikum!

    LOL! Why are you still engaging with this guy?

    Occasionally, though not often, an opportunity arises to use him as a foil in order to provide potentially edifying information to the silent (and not-so-silent) audience.

    I’ll return to this subject later, insha’ALLAH.

    In the meantime, may ALLAH bless you generously for your counsel and may He raise your father to the utmost heights of The Garden beneath which rivers flow, abundant with pleasure that defies mortal comprehension, graced with the company of the righteous.

    SubHanALLAH, I was just reflecting upon my still living father last night. Much of what you said resonates deeply with me.

    Please take as much time as you need to remember your father.

    was-salaam.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Talha
  127. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    Ameen, bro. Value the time you still have with him.

    Also, on a related note…my father was in the ICU for a while (his death was not from Covid). When he was at the point of no recovery and had only a few days or hours left – since he was passing – we were allowed in to see him in his last moments, otherwise the hospital is shut to visitors. Everything was calm, no panic, no craziness. My brother and I reflected on this afterwards. Nurses were cautious and wearing masks, gloves, etc. but there was no sense of a pandemic at all. Everything was fairly calm, even slow. There were even some empty rooms. This was in California.

    Wa salaam.

  128. AaronB says:

    For anyone who is interested, I found two nice little books by an author Jason Gregory – Effortless Living, and Fasting the mind.

    They are written from an Eastern perspective, but not entirely. Today, we live an overstimulated and overactive life, and it is causing us immense physical and mental harm.

    There is a simple and ancient solution. Fast the mind. Live effortlessly, without forcing things.

  129. @AnonStarter

    You practice subterfuge. It is just that easy to know.

    The Jews and Israel are no different then any other people or state. Muslims and their states are no better or worse. Their statecraft, borders, corruption and claim of religious superiority is the same.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  130. @Talha

    My deepest condolances on the passing of your father. God bless your family in all the bounty of His eternal love.

    • Replies: @Talha
  131. Talha says:
    @SeekerofthePresence

    Thank you so much for your kind words and prayer. May God return all the same and more to you and your family.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @SeekerofthePresence
  132. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Muslims and their states are no better or worse… ‘

    Definitely not what you’ve said elsewhere.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
  133. @AaronB and @Fran Taubman

    Seems even the FBI is on your case:

    “FBI slammed after tweeting out ZION PROTOCOLS, history’s most notorious anti-Semitic* pamphlet”
    https://www.rt.com/usa/498466-fbi-protocols-zion-scandal/

    *NOTE: Always remember the term ‘antisemitic’ is a political use of language , i.e., using words as weapons usually to derail /distract from the topic being discussed.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  134. @Patagonia Man

    I have never used the term anti semitic in my entire time on UR. Never. I abhor the word. I have never defended the Jews. I have stated that the Jews are no better or worse then Christians, Muslims, Hindus or any other religion. Israel is no worse or better then any other state trying to keep it’s population safe.
    There is no Jewish conspiracy to take over the world and enslave non-Jews. And Jews do not control the world, media and or banking. Those are all bogus conspiracy theories. On these subjects I haver remained consistent.

    • Replies: @Art
  135. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    An Israeli settler deliberately ran over a flock of sheep owned by a Palestinian shepherd near Hebron City in the occupied West Bank. Dozens were killed.

    Hate everything.
    Usually olive trees and Palestinians.

    Diseased minds from a diseased belief system.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  136. Art says:
    @Fran Taubman

    And Jews do not control the world, media and or banking.

    Jews control the US government.

    CYNTHIA MCKINNEY: ISRAEL CONTROLS U.S. CONGRESS AND FOREIGN POLICY

    TruNews starting 39.40

    https://www.trunews.com/stream/cynthia-mckinney-israel-controls-u-s-congress-and-foreign-policy

  137. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Scottish ‘friend of Israel’ faked anti-Semitism for years

    https://www.sott.net/article/440031-Scottish-friend-of-Israel-faked-anti-Semitism-for-years

    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/scottish-friend-israel-faked-anti-semitism-years

    Another dumb f**k enemy to Humanity.
    Like bedbugs, these pests are everywhere: in the light, in the dark.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  138. ‘Biden set to accept nomination in convention-closing address.’

    For laughs, someone rig the teleprompter.

  139. @anon

    ‘An Israeli settler deliberately ran over a flock of sheep owned by a Palestinian shepherd near Hebron City in the occupied West Bank. Dozens were killed.’

    They were terror sheep. Hey: there were ‘terror kindergartens’. Why not ‘terror sheep’?

  140. Art says:

    Does anyone have any background on this story? Is it for real?

    Investigative reporter Millie Weaver and her husband have reportedly been arrested at the same time her documentary on the US “shadow government” was being screened on YouTube, sending Conservative Twitter into theory overdrive.

    https://www.sott.net/article/439859-Journalist-Millie-Weaver-Arrested-Charged-With-Burglary-Just-as-She-Releases-ShadowGate-Documentary-Exposing-Deep-State-Activities-UPDATE

    • Replies: @anon
  141. My correspondence with Trita Parsi of the Quincy Institute, funded by George Soros
    Here is the article he sent me followed by my response.

    https://newrepublic.com/article/159010/trump-israel-iran-mideast-forever-war?mc_cid=6b46a5b180&mc_eid=9b1b460b9d

    Hi Trita,

    [MORE]
    You can write for days about this alignment and that alignment, and who is fighting whom in the ME all day long. It is a game of musical chairs. No one can keep it straight, especially Turkey and the Kurds.

    There is another side to this dilemma which unlike your mish mash is as clear as a bell. You may not like or agree with it, but it is clear and concise and more and more people are signing on to the concept which goes like this:

    The Palestinian quest for independence was a fig leaf for the overall desire of Islam to get rid of Jewish hegemony in the region. The conflict is religious and about not Palestinian statehood, independence or land. The years and years of Oslo, the Road map et al. proved that the more the Israelis signed on to peace the further away it seemed. Like the Palestinians were playing the peace game to see how much they could get until the right of return changed the population from majority Jewish to majority Islamic. and presto a one state Muslim Palestine. Islam in control. The left leaning Israelis were all on board with the peace process until Gaza and Hamas. After Gaza and Hamas most Israelis were done with negotiating with the Palestinians for a two state solution.
    The most stalwart anti Zionist are the Shia Iranians who say right out that Israel must be defeated as matter of religious dogma. Islam will never let the Jews to control Al Quds. Never
    So there you have it. The rest is gibberish.

    Also you have one failed state after another over there. The Islamic countries are just not progressing economically and their populations that used to coalesce around the liberation of Palestine and the defeat of Israel, which if anyone has half a brain realizes is never going to happen. The Palestinians are losers. Losers do not dictate terms unless you have the world at your beck and call, which the Palestinians did briefly have. The world is in a different mode and has largely abandoned the Palestinians. Proof of the change by the defeat of British Labor Party (more of a demolition then a defeat). Brits do not give a rats ass about the Palestinians, and with the eventual brake up of the EU, neither does the rest of Europe. To but it succinctly Europeans are worried about Europe and each individual countries nationalism.

    You also have the Hezbollah who Lebanon (becoming another failed state) is turning on.

    So what is a Suni Muslim country left to do? DUH!! Make peace with Israel. Israel is like the Silicon Valley of the ME. China and other countries are clamoring for Israeli technology and desalination plants. What would you do if you were an Arab leader? Hmm lets stick with the hopeless Palestinian cause or sign on with peace with Israel? Not a very hard decision. Peace with Israel means shared everything. Economics, technology and tourism. And believe me none of the Arab people hate the Jews and vice versa. Everyone wants to thrive and live a decent life. Signing on with Israel is the best way to go, and Israel will be generous towards acceptance and will work hard to help the entire region thrive. it is in everyones interest.

    So where does that leave the Shia resistance to Israel and all of the proxy wars in Syria, Lebanon and Hamas. Well think Qasem Soleimani Dead!! Gosh Trita it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the Islamic Jihadist “get rid of the Jews” hey day has come and gone. Poor Iran.

    Turn the page, a new era is upon us. I am sorry for the Palestinians but they made their own bed, with stupid leaders who reaped millions and billions of dollars for the cottage industry that was the “peace process” delivering nothing absolutely nothing, but lining their own pockets. Some kind of federation will eventually be worked out with Jordan for Palestinian nationalism.

    I know it is hard for you do to but think logically about what is the best end game for everyone. The Palestinians or peace with Israel? Enjoy Soros and your foundation while it lasts.

    Your thoughts are always welcome.

    Fran

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Art
  142. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @Art

    Maybe some info here. Sound not available.

    Millie Weaver UPDATE – Political Prosecution or Par for the Course? Viva Frei Vlawg
    Aug 20, 2020

    • Thanks: Art
  143. @Fran Taubman

    ‘My correspondence with Trita Parsi of the Quincy Institute, funded by George Soros…’

    There must be better things to do than read a conversation between a known liar and a probable liar — presumably lying to each other.

    I think I’ll go plant some Anuenue lettuce. It’s cooled down enough so that it might sprout.

  144. @anon

    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/scottish-friend-israel-faked-anti-semitism-years

    This is far from the first time Israeli and pro-Israeli groups have fabricated anti-Semitism.

    Naaah.

    Ya think?

  145. Art says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Frannie – you have all the answers – fix this girl. How many were alumni of the most moral army on the planet? (Bebe shocked shocked!)

    16-year-old girl allegedly gang-raped by 30 men in Israel hotel

    A teenage girl was allegedly gang-raped by dozens of men at a hotel in Israel — in an attack the country’s Prime Minister called a “crime against humanity.”

    Two suspects have been arrested so far in connection to the filmed sexual assault of the intoxicated 16-year-old at a resort in the coastal town of Eilat, according to the Times of Israel. Police said additional arrests were expected.

    “This is shocking, there is no other word. This is not only a crime against the girl, this is a crime against humanity itself that is worthy of all condemnation,” Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu tweeted on Thursday. He called for the men to be “brought to justice”.

    https://nypost-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/nypost.com/2020/08/20/16-year-old-girl-allegedly-gang-raped-by-30-men-in-israel-hotel/amp/

  146. @Art

    And even more disturbingly …

    Nine out of 10 rape cases in Israel are closed by prosecutors without charge,

    … according to an annual survey released last year, which also found a significant increase in reports of sexual assault and harassment to authorities.

    “The report by the Association of Rape Crisis Centers in Israel found that in 2018 police opened 6,220 investigations into alleged sex crimes and harassment, including 1,166 of suspected rape, marking a 12% increase as compared to the previous year and a 40% spike from 2013.”

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/9-out-of-10-rape-cases-in-israel-closed-without-charges-study/

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  147. @Art

    ’16-year-old girl allegedly gang-raped by 30 men in Israel hotel’

    Israel has very high sexual abuse rates.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  148. JackOH says:

    Suggestion for an article: “How Unz Review Readers Can Transform Themselves into a Powerful Political Faction that Wins America Back”. Maybe written by someone with practical political experience.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  149. @Talha

    As-salaamu ‘alaikum!

    May ALLAH keep us ever close to Him and may this message find us in His good company.

    For as beneficial a source of information and correspondence this venue may be, it also remains vulnerable to parties who exploit its broadly tolerant platform as a means by which to undermine the greater purposes for which it may be used. Invariably, there will be white noise that cannot be entirely squelched. Ignore filters will mitigate its effect, but mixed-bag commenters, anonymous handle circumvention, and an increasing quantity of new posters will also make it impossible to maintain an entirely static-free environment. Such is the nature of the forum.

    [MORE]

    I still remember when Aaron was endorsing you. Not long ago, I happened to return to some of those old threads, which are really quite moving, ma sha ALLAH. Sad that it turned out as it has, but here we are, dealing with a megalomaniac whose “dominance” consists of clichéd slander about the domestic life of Muslims and advocacy for their mass extermination.

    So I completely understand why you filter the guy. I’ve considered the same. I had both Franniette Tubman and OneToothRhea screened out for awhile, but ultimately lifted the filter when determining that their content could, on occasion, serve as a means to expose the mendacity of hasbara.

    Aaron falls into the same category, though I have to say that he’s not so bad when not posturing about Israel, Islam or Muslims per se. When, as in this thread, he’s speaking falsely about Palestine, I might engage him just enough to lay his propaganda bare. I also might just kick back and see what he has to say. That thread to which you linked is a gold mine of revealing comments.

    Filtering Aaron would deprive us of that, as well as the occasional opportunity to use him in order to set the record straight.

    I’m not trying to change your mind, by the way. I’m simply presenting an alternative view.

    was-salaam.

    • Replies: @anon
  150. @Patagonia Man

    Sorry it took so long to get back to you Art, I was enjoying beating and starving the Palestinian children in my basement.
    So what is your point? You are such an empty suit with these accusations. I think the Hindu gangs lead the world in raping teenage women.
    No doubt Art, there are awful Jews, even evil Jews. To no ones surprise there are evil, cruel and awful people everywhere, Jews and non Jews.
    Did you know that? Yet you continue to post a horror story about a Palestinian or a rape. What is the point? Chicago has a lot of evil and murder going on. Do you look at the news?
    Life in Israel for Jews and Arabs is better in Israel then any other country in the ME, with laws to protect individuals. Jews and non Jews. You must be dull not to understand that.
    I hope they catch the perpetrators of this crime and that individual is punished to the full extent of the law.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @Patagonia Man
  151. Wielgus says:
    @Colin Wright

    It goes right to the top – Moshe Katsav for example.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  152. @Wielgus

    ‘It goes right to the top – Moshe Katsav for example.’

    It’s really very ironic. The modern state of Israel is the most devastating indictment of Jewry ever formulated.

    • Troll: Corvinus
    • Replies: @Art
  153. On a more depressing note…

    Biden seems to have proved still capable of delivering a set-piece speech. This raises the horrifying possibility that his handlers and the media may be able to shield him from scrutiny for the next ten weeks, shepherd him through to early November, and win the election.

  154. @JackOH

    ‘… Maybe written by someone with practical political experience.’

    If they had practical political experience, the title might be ‘ “How Unz Review Readers Can Transform Themselves into a Powerful Political Faction that Tries to win America Back but Fails.”

    After all, quite a few people have tried over the years — each from his own perspective, of course. Barry Goldwater, George Wallace, Pat Buchanan, Ross Perot, Mike Huckabee, Tulsi Gabbard, and Bernie Sanders all come to mind.

    The machine always — or almost always — wins. It’s depressing, but there it is.

    • Replies: @JackOH
  155. Art says:
    @Colin Wright

    The modern state of Israel is the most devastating indictment of Jewry ever formulated.

    Exactly – there is a palpable darkness in the Jew psyche – that is self-evident in Israeli actions. It is run-of-the-mill in Israel, that daily there is an exceptionally cruel action taken against the Palestinian people. There is no disputing this cruelty. It is always explained away with false claims of Jew victimhood.

    Those in far of lands, who enable these inhuman Israeli acts, are culpable in the malevolence.

    It is clear, that the enablers Fran and Aaron want this malice and evil to expand.

  156. Art says:
    @Fran Taubman

    No doubt Art, there are awful Jews, even evil Jews. To no ones surprise there are evil, cruel and awful people everywhere, Jews and non Jews.

    Sorry Fran — 30 guys is beyond awful — this was not a third world war crime. It was a 30 chain rape of a sixteen year old on a Sunday afternoon in a so called Western nation. There is something wrong with the Jew male mind.

    Hmm — are you a Jew, before you are woman? How can you make excuses? Nine out of ten reported rapes are not prosecuted in Israel. Looks like you Jew women are just one small step above the Palestinians in Israel’s sick male dominated hierarchy.

  157. @Art

    ‘… Hmm — are you a Jew, before you are woman?’

    In passing, she probably is. Feminist bumph notwithstanding, women generally identify with their ethnicity, class, etc long before they identify with their gender.

    I remember one writer commenting on the sheer absurdity of ‘herstory’ as applied to the Middle Ages. The notion that a noblewoman would identify with a female peasant before she would identify with her brothers and husband just had to be stated for its improbability to become apparent.

    Fran is a Jew long before she is a woman — but the point is, it wouldn’t be just Jews who are like that.

    We all are.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @Corvinus
  158. Art says:
    @Colin Wright

    Fran is a Jew long before she is a woman — but the point is, it wouldn’t be just Jews who are like that.

    We all are.

    Hmm — very interesting.

    I disagree 100% – personally I identify as a man before everything else.

  159. Corvinus says:
    @Colin Wright

    “women generally identify with their ethnicity, class, etc long before they identify with their gender.”

    ONLY if they explicitly say they do. Otherwise, you are speculating.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  160. Corvinus says:
    @Colin Wright

    “A profile of one of Biden’s handlers.”

    LOL. OK, let us assume that he ought to register as as foreign agent. I would surmise then, for you to be consistent in your thought process, that you would also support Trump’s various handlers–past and present–to engage in a similar action.

    I mean, after all, you are concerned with meddling in the American political system by outside forces. That is your implication here, right? Or are you just going to be a hypocrite?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  161. @Art

    ‘Hmm — very interesting.

    ‘I disagree 100% – personally I identify as a man before everything else.’

    You’re in the jungle. You need a ride. Two cars stop. One is driven by a white woman — well past the age of being sexually attractive. The other is driven by a black man of about the same age.

    Which car do you get in?

    • Replies: @Art
  162. @Corvinus

    ‘LOL. OK, let us assume that he ought to register as as foreign agent. I would surmise then, for you to be consistent in your thought process, that you would also support Trump’s various handlers–past and present–to engage in a similar action…’

    Actually, I would support Trump’s various Zionist handlers being similarly exposed. You may be making some assumptions about my attitudes that are not accurate.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  163. @Art

    I disagree 100% – personally I identify as a man before everything else.

    That is because you are hopelessly binary in your thought process. You lack any ability to see the human complexities in everyone. You also lack any ability for rational introspection to evaluate your ideas against others that think differently then you, like maybe you are not correct. Most peoples intellect has the ability to see opposing ideas as possibly having merit. You do not have that ability. to to reason. I don’t mean to be personal or negative Art, but after observing your post for a long time I have come to the conclusion that you are dumber then a door post. That is why I mostly ignore you. Your Jew hatred is just to childish and stupid to respond to.

    • Replies: @Art
  164. @Corvinus

    ‘… ONLY if they explicitly say they do. Otherwise, you are speculating.’

    No, I am living on the Planet Earth, and just as I can reasonably assume a given person has ten toes, I can predict what their most probable response will be to certain basic stimuli.

    You’re in bed. You wake up — and there’s a rattlesnake lying in the bed with you.

    I’ll bet you get excited. If you insist, you may label that ‘speculation.’

    No one here is going to dutifully fall in line for all your tedious ideological orthodoxies. For one thing, we’re living in an ideologically bankrupt civilization. Few of them are true.

    You might as well be preaching the efficacy of sacrificing virgins when it comes to placating the volcano god. That’s how seriously anyone is going to take your pieties from here on out.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  165. anon[351] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonStarter

    Who is OneToothRhea?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @AnonStarter
  166. @Art

    Art, our Franny suffers from Stockholm Syndrome. The sad part about it is she isn’t even aware of it.

    Cheers!

  167. @Fran Taubman

    Hi Fran,

    Although you addressed your reply to me but were answering Art, I’ll just leave this here for your perusal when you’re through with beating and starving Palestinian kiddies in your basement.

    Blessings.

    • Thanks: Art
  168. @anon

    ‘Who is OneToothRhea?’

    He’s that 123…something.

  169. Art says:
    @Fran Taubman

    So Frannie — of course Colon is right — even with my meager intellect, I can see that you identify, as a Jew, not as a woman. You simply do not have the base humanity and empathy of a normal good woman.

    Hmm — do you identify first as a human, or as a Jew? (I know dumb question.)

    I think that the Jew culture has a very powerful system of indoctrinating their children – by the age of five or six, Jew children have abandon their base natural humanity, in favor of tribal paranoia.

    Poor Frannie – her mental life can be summed up in one word – paranoia.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  170. Art says:
    @Colin Wright

    You’re in the jungle. You need a ride. Two cars stop. One is driven by a white woman — well past the age of being sexually attractive. The other is driven by a black man of about the same age.

    Which car do you get in?

    If the non-threatening old black man was a fisherman – I would go with him – we could have a good time swapping fish stories. Fishing is a bond that superceeds skin.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  171. JackOH says:
    @Colin Wright

    Ever the optimist, eh, buddy? (LOL.)

    Have you not noticed that Ron Unz may have single-handedly sparked the most recent challenge to our government’s anti-White affirmative action policies by showing those racist slob policies also unfairly hurt Asian-Americans, people who have no record of slave-owning or being enslaved in the States. I thought his analysis was a nicely reasoned and psychologically acute piece of work. Ron may be quixotic and cranky, but he does have practical political experience in a very populous state.

  172. @anon

    It’s A123, Israel’s water boy at UR.

    Fortunately, his buckets are ridden with holes, so it’s usually unnecessary to deal with him unless one feels so inclined to politely point this out.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  173. Corvinus says:
    @Colin Wright

    “Actually, I would support Trump’s various Zionist handlers being similarly exposed.”

    Including those in the Mueller report and the Senate Foreign Intelligence Committee findings?

    “You may be making some assumptions about my attitudes that are not accurate.”

    Fair enough. Perhaps you should return the favor?

  174. @AnonStarter

    Fortunately, his buckets are ridden with holes, so it’s usually unnecessary to deal with him unless one feels so inclined to politely point this out.

    You say that about everyone that doesn’t see it your way. We are all just little duckies ready to be blown out of the water by the mighty AS.
    When the going gets tough. The tough go to ignore mode
    I prefer a conversant that engages on all subjects including difficult ones. It’s fun watching you play games with someone like A123 who is all facts and no
    emotion, pretending to be cool 😎. With Talha it’s all Akih Wa Salam Akih. Like a child. You are a silly one.

  175. Corvinus says:
    @Colin Wright

    “I can predict what their most probable response will be to certain basic stimuli.”

    Weaselly statement alert. You are making an assumption based on what you think how women identify themselves. It may or may not be accurate, but you coming across as if you know with relative certainty. Again, that is speculation on your part.

    “For one thing, we’re living in an ideologically bankrupt civilization. ”

    Which is your personal opinion.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  176. David Wolffsohn, the man who succeeded Theodor Herzl as President of the World Zionist Organization, quoted Max Nordau (co-founder of the WZO) in saying, “You will ruin Herzl’s name if you publish his diaries. Whoever reads them is bound to believe that he was a fool and a swindler.” We know this because the evidence is readily verifiable in Israel’s Central Zionist Archives, an entry from Wolffsohn’s diary that was published posthumously.

    Now what could Wolffsohn, channeling Nordau, have been writing about? Why was he so convinced that Herzl’s name would be ruined by publishing his diaries?

    Answering that question requires further evidence (which is available in Rabbi Simons’ text). However, given the position of Wolffsohn and Nordau in relation to Herzl, the statement, of itself, is enough to prove that something in Herzl’s diaries revealed a major chasm between Herzl’s public and private personae.

    Incidentally, Simons is a dyed-in-the-wool zionist, yet notably distinct from our own resident hasbaraites in that he doesn’t attempt to whitewash historical truth concerning modern zionists’ intent to expel Palestinians from their native land.

  177. @Art

    ‘If the non-threatening old black man was a fisherman – I would go with him – we could have a good time swapping fish stories. Fishing is a bond that superceeds skin.’

    Reminds me. Fishing is one of the truly inter-racial activities. About all I can say is that I’ve never seen a black fly fishing.

  178. @Corvinus

    ‘“For one thing, we’re living in an ideologically bankrupt civilization. ”

    Which is your personal opinion.’

    I’d say it’s pretty objectively obvious. When people are rioting about events that clearly didn’t happen, shutting down all economic activity on account of a trivial virus, ceasing to have children, having themselves castrated, etc there’s something definitely wrong with the ruling ideology. It’s not an opinion.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  179. @Art

    If only it was a meager intellect!! There is no intellect involved with your brain whatsoever. Zero.You are a binary reptile. Jews bad. Jewish women bad, Palestinian women good. Jewish men rape. Non Jewish men good. Get the idea of how the non intellect reptilian brain responds.

  180. Corvinus says:
    @Colin Wright

    “I’d say it’s pretty objectively obvious.”

    Nope. You are being subjective here.

    “When people are rioting about events that clearly didn’t happen…”

    If you choose to be an ostrich, I’m not going to stop you.

    “shutting down all economic activity on account of a trivial virus”

    The word is contagious.

    “ceasing to have children”

    Of course white women are having children, just not enough to suit your personal taste.

    “having themselves castrated”

    “there’s something definitely wrong with the ruling ideology. It’s not an opinion.”

    Of course it’s an opinion…yours!

  181. From the Foundation for Middle East Peace:

    Lawfare: Targeting US Academia – Tracking the Cases

    When President Donald Trump signed his executive order on antisemitism back on December 11, 2019, some of us warned the real target was campus free speech critical of Israel. Complaints filed in the wake of the executive order demonstrate the accuracy of these warnings. To help people track these cases (and the many cases that preceded them in recent years), I’ve created this new resource table, which I will update whenever new information becomes available.

    See also:

    https://fmep.org/resources/?rsearch=&rcat%5B%5D=360

  182. @Colin Wright

    Wanted to address this sooner, but missed the opportunity …

    As I understand it, Al Aqsa was intended as a rebuilding of the Temple.

    It is not Muslims themselves who assert this, but rather, an inference made by examination of Jewish eschatology. In the Midrash Rabbah, and in the work of scholars such as Saadia ben Joseph, Rashi, and ibn Ezra, we find Song of Songs interpreted as an allegory depicting the vicissitudes of Israel and its relation with God from the Exodus until the coming of the Messiah and the reconstruction of the Third Temple.

    Jews, not Muslims, are most capable of understanding the history of al Aqsa this way, as they possess the texts necessary to draw this conclusion. Whether they will do so or not remains a live question.

    Another matter …

    The uproar came when it transpired that the Jews intended not just to collect rent, but to drive the Muslims and Christians off the land entirely. That was a first.

    In War over Peace: One Hundred Years of Israel’s Militaristic Nationalism, Uri Ben-Eliezer provides historical detail about the acrimonious disposition that immigrants of the Second Aliyah adopted toward the indigenous Arabs of Palestine:

    [MORE]

    The newcomers faced difficulties finding employment after they arrived in the country. The Jewish farmers, who had immigrated to Palestine around the turn of the century and established agricultural settlements, employed Arab laborers as farmhands and guards. The Zionist laborers resented this, and slogans such as “The conquest of labor” and “Conquer the guard” (from the Arabs) reflected their ethno-national orientation. One of the leaders of Hapoel Hatzair declared, “A nation that hands over its most basic labor of production to others will never be revived. One cannot build a homeland through the labor of others. … An essential condition for Zionist fulfillment is that all the labor vocations in the country must be conquered by Jews” (Shapira, 1967: 13–14). From the outset, socialist Zionists adopted a “zero-sum game” view of reality. As the spiritual leader of Hapoel Hatzair, A.D. Gordon, declared, “Are the Arabs the ‘masters of the land?’ … We will find that the Arabs have only a historical right to the land, just like us—except that our historical right is undoubtedly the greater” (Gordon, 1953: 244–45).

    What’s interesting is that Hapoel Hatzair (Young Worker) was the more moderate of the two parties that Second Aliyah immigrants had formed. Poalei Zion (Workers of Zion) was the party whose ideology held greater sway over the Hashomer, the “first substantial Jewish military organization formed in the Yishuv (the pre-state Zionist-Jewish community).”

    About Hashomer, Ben-Eliezer writes

    The organization’s immediate goal was to replace Arab guards with Jews, but its underlying objective was far more ambitious. Hashomer promoted the image of the New Jew: strong, healthy of body and mind, and muscular—the diametric opposite of the weak, dependent Jew of exile. Moreover, its members were the first Zionists to develop the theory of conquering the land by force. The organization’s founding meeting discussed the need to liberate the people and the homeland and to establish a Jewish state. The meeting was held under the slogan “In blood and fire Judah fell, in blood and fire Judah will rise.” The poem from which these words were taken also includes the words: “We have arisen and returned invigorated youths … [t]o redeem our oppressed land! We demand our heritage with a mighty hand!”?[5]

    … and …

    During a visit to Palestine in 1911, the writer and literary critic David Frishman had no doubts about the character of Hashomer: “Rather than guarding themselves, they provoke others. Their main concern is that others should know that the people that lives here is tough and rash, so that they will always be afraid.” He warned that the day was coming when their Arab neighbors “will finally awake and unite, and suddenly recognize that they have strength and might; and then they will take their revenge.”[7]

    Quoting Ben-Eliezer once more:

    … [T]he story of Hashomer illustrates the emergence of a new approach whose adherents did not seek to live in Palestine alongside the Arabs but to dominate them through armed might. In this sense, Hashomer represented an early manifestation of Israeli militaristic nationalism.

    I realize you’ve probably got your own source material — in which I myself am interested — but I always enjoy fleshing these details out more thoroughly, particularly when it so decisively crushes hasbara underfoot.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @Fran Taubman
  183. @AnonStarter

    One more note …

    Ben-Eliezer isn’t entirely accurate in saying that the Hashomer were “the first Zionists to develop the theory of conquering the land by force,” though it would be correct to say that they were the first group of zionists to implement that theory on the ground.

  184. @AnonStarter

    As

    You ought to try stand up. You crack me up with you liturgy scams presented with such sincerity. Furthermore looking back on who did what to settle Israel and witch Zionist were colonizers by force does nothing and will do nothing to change the future for the Palestinians. They are losers. Picking apart history for a morsels is like the crying over BDS opponents playing unfair. The Palestinian issue is over.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @Colin Wright
  185. 4118953

    It is not Muslims themselves who assert this, but rather, an inference made by examination of Jewish eschatology. In the Midrash Rabbah, and in the work of scholars such as Saadia ben Joseph, Rashi, and ibn Ezra, we find Song of Songs interpreted as an allegory depicting the vicissitudes of Israel and its relation with God from the Exodus until the coming of the Messiah and the reconstruction of the Third Temple.

    Jews, not Muslims, are most capable of understanding the history of al Aqsa this way, as they possess the texts necessary to draw this conclusion. Whether they will do so or not remains a live question.

    this is the part I left out of my last post. The response was directed at this. On my phone. I dunno editing is not working.

  186. 4118953

    ‘…but I always enjoy fleshing these details out more thoroughly, particularly when it so decisively crushes hasbara underfoot.’

    Having somewhat unintentionally knocked off the entire bottle of Illahee 2019 Viognier (which I definitely recommend at this point, but…) I shan’t attempt to give your post the attention it deserves, but…

    (1) ‘crushing Zionism underfoot’ is a bit like demonstrating that sexually molesting infants is wrong. It’s not too hard. However, somewhat incredibly, it still has to be done, so soldier on — as will I.

    (2) What I’ve read is that when the Muslims conquered Jerusalem, they took care to consult Jewish authorities about the precise location of the Temple. To me, that implies that al Aqsa was intended to be the Temple rebuilt — and the Muslims saw themselves as God’s Chosen People, once again incarnate. The point here is that what Jews in general and Zionists in particular fail to realize is that Muslims (and Christians) see themselves, not Jews, as the Chosen People. Once that’s grasped, any religiously-based claim to a monopoly on Palestine becomes objectively nonsensical: Christians, Jews, and Muslims can all claim it, on precisely the same grounds. We can all agree Buddhists have no right to the place, but past that, the discussion becomes fruitless.

    …which takes us back to (1). Since religion is of no use in settling the question, ordinary common sense and an interest in avoiding unnecessary misery says that Palestine should be left in the hands of the people who happened to be living in it: to wit, the Palestinians. They could all decide to become Christians, or even plump for Judaism: the rest of us would just have to suck it. By the only available objective criterion, Palestine would still be theirs.

    As so often. the truth really isn’t very complicated. It’s lies that get complicated.

  187. @Colin Wright

    You need another bottle of wine for that BS to make sense. I always say the Colin the most clueless UR commentator.

  188. @Colin Wright

    Illahee

    Is that the maker?

    The term ilahi — which appears phonetically similar — translates as “my lord” in Arabic. Do they make mead?

    I shan’t attempt to give your post the attention it deserves, but…

    I prefer to wait until you’ve determined whether or not your response was sufficient or you’d like to add something more to it. I wouldn’t want to be hasty in my own reply.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  189. @jamie b.

    BBC?

    You know the BBC is known as the British Bullshitting Corporation, right?

    Cheers!

    • Replies: @jamie b.
  190. @AnonStarter

    The term ilahi — which appears phonetically similar — translates as “my lord” in Arabic.

    Alternatively, the transliteration of “illahee” — if the double “l” reflects the shadda — could mean “except her.”

    Perhaps an unconscious desire to exclude a certain third party from our midst?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  191. Art says:
    @Fran Taubman

    The Palestinian issue is over.

    Clearly that is a lie.

    This is 2020 – apartheid is unacceptable – Israel is hated – the tide is turning against the Jew in the US – the fear of Jew retribution is starting to wain – the coercion of Jew money is obvious.

    The duped are becoming un-duped. The one-sided Jew war against Western values is about to be engaged for the first time by the majority. The JQ grows.

    The Zionist Jew has shot his wad – and he missed.

    p.s. Jew neocon Trump/Biden are pushing the ME into China’s hands. Israel/US are becoming isolated. The Jew dollar is the enemy of the good.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  192. What’s this? Have relations between the newlyweds soured so soon? Even before the honeymoon?

    UAE said to scrap meet with Israel, US envoys after Netanyahu panned F-35 deal

    Emiratis also reportedly plan to refrain from additional high-level meetings with Jerusalem until prime minister clarifies position on prospective US arms agreement

    Oh, well. I’m sure all of this will blow over and a miracle contagion infecting Arabs and Jews with involuntary spasms of peace will soon spread far and wide from the heart of Ness Ziona —

    Or else.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Art
  193. @AnonStarter

    ‘The term ilahi — which appears phonetically similar — translates as “my lord” in Arabic.

    ‘Alternatively, the transliteration of “illahee” — if the double “l” reflects the shadda — could mean “except her.”

    Perhaps an unconscious desire to exclude a certain third party from our midst?’

    Dunno ’bouts dat kind o’ stuff.

    However, I did mispell ‘Illahe’ — just one ‘e.’ I assumed it was an Indian name, but anything’s possible. Good wine…gonna see if I can get a deal on a case.

    https://www.illahevineyards.com/

    Otherwise, rereading your post in the cold light of sobriety, I still agree with what you say and, in fact, find it quite illuminating.

  194. @AnonStarter

    ‘What’s this? Have relations between the newlyweds soured so soon? Even before the honeymoon?

    UAE said to scrap meet with Israel, US envoys after Netanyahu panned F-35 deal

    Emiratis also reportedly plan to refrain from additional high-level meetings with Jerusalem until prime minister clarifies position on prospective US arms agreement…’

    This does shed some light on matters.

    Israel is in a bit of a quandary. If she’s to have friends, she has to trust them enough to permit the US to arm them — but if the US arms them, then her total military supremacy might be jeopardized.

    Will Israel ever have friends she can trust? Stay tuned…

    • Replies: @Art
  195. Art says:
    @AnonStarter

    Oh, well. I’m sure all of this will blow over and a miracle contagion infecting Arabs and Jews with involuntary spasms of peace will soon spread far and wide from the heart of Ness Ziona —

    Or else.

    Follow the money. Arab oil money is safe (or not) in Jew central banks.

    Big Arab oil money has never contested Israel. Little Arabs and Palestinians be dammed.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
  196. @Art

    what have you been smoking? The only hope is peace with the Jews and Israel in the ME. It is all done in secret now, soon to be revealed. The Arabs need Israeli technology. Wake up and smell the coffee Art, people want to live in peace. Hating on the Jews is a child’s game. Oh the Jews are so bad!!

    Trump will win in a landslide and he is a super Jew and Zionist. Good luck Art.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  197. @Fran Taubman

    ‘… They are losers. Picking apart history for a morsels is like the crying over BDS opponents playing unfair. The Palestinian issue is over.’

    Something like the Holocaust then? All those Jews were losers? Boo-hoo?

    The issue is over. Have I got it right?

  198. Art says:
    @Colin Wright

    Will Israel ever have friends she can trust?

    Israeli friends is an oxymoron.

    Can a Jew be friends with an “inferior?”

    The answer is NO! It is written – look at the Talmud and Torah.

  199. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Trump will win in a landslide and he is a super Jew and Zionist. Good luck Art.’

    Fran…I’m for Trump. Think about it.

    Well, okay: that’s improbable — but you get my point.

  200. @Colin Wright

    Okay. I’ll assume you spoke your piece yesterday.

    (1) ‘crushing Zionism underfoot’ is a bit like demonstrating that sexually molesting infants is wrong. It’s not too hard. However, somewhat incredibly, it still has to be done, so soldier on — as will I.

    For us, it’s like that, though I don’t assume too much about the audience here. Most of them are wise to it, though there’s a learning curve we can’t take for granted. It’s safe to say most people aren’t at your grade yet.

    To me, that implies that al Aqsa was intended to be the Temple rebuilt — and the Muslims saw themselves as God’s Chosen People, once again incarnate.

    I don’t see evidence that ‘Umar considered his establishment of a mosque in the al-Aqsa precinct as a “rebuilding” of the Temple. The location of al-Aqsa was the first stop on the Prophet’s Night Journey, where he led a congregation of prophets in prayer before ascending the heavens to reach close proximity to God Himself. Yes, we hold that Islam as manifest by the Prophet and his companions fulfilled Jewish prophecy. One might consider the establishment of the al-Aqsa complex part and parcel of that fulfillment, though saying that “al Aqsa was intended to be the Temple rebuilt” is misleading, suggesting restoration of a Judaic house of worship while Islam defenestrates familial/tribal assimilation as a requirement for belonging.

    I suppose that, like Fran, we could look upon this phenomenon of mutually competing claims as irreconcilable but by dint of “blood and fire,” as extremists of every variety do. I would humbly suggest, however, that a solution does lie within the treasury of our respective traditions if we are so willing to agree upon mutually beneficial terms of interest. As tough a row to hoe as this may seem, the alternative is to disregard religion as a means of reconciliation in a region where it is all but impossible to disregard it as a primary societal influence.

    I do not claim to have any simple answers here. I greatly appreciate suggestions such as Talha’s, which provide shared access to the precincts in a manner intended to engender comity and respect for all faith communities claiming a heritage therein. It is my conviction that failure to arrive at anything other than a zero-sum resolution will only perpetuate the conflict for the foreseeable future.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  201. …and victory may be in sight.

    In the last two days I’ve been in five stores: three of them chains and two of them national ones.

    All were still festooned with the usual mask orders, but no one was enforcing them. I’ve been going around mask-free for at least two days now — maybe longer.

  202. @AnonStarter

    ‘…I don’t see evidence that ‘Umar considered his establishment of a mosque in the al-Aqsa precinct as a “rebuilding” of the Temple. The location of al-Aqsa was the first stop on the Prophet’s Night Journey, where he led a congregation of prophets in prayer before ascending the heavens to reach close proximity to God Himself. Yes, we hold that Islam as manifest by the Prophet and his companions fulfilled Jewish prophecy. One might consider the establishment of the al-Aqsa complex part and parcel of that fulfillment, though saying that “al Aqsa was intended to be the Temple rebuilt” is misleading, suggesting restoration of a Judaic house of worship while Islam defenestrates familial/tribal assimilation as a requirement for belonging.’

    On the other hand, that the Muslim conquerors of Jerusalem took great care to situate al Aqsa precisely where the Temple had been does suggest that it was indeed intended to be ‘the Temple rebuilt’ in some sense, however you may wish to circumscribe the implications of that.

    ‘I suppose that, like Fran, we could look upon this phenomenon of mutually competing claims as irreconcilable but by dint of “blood and fire,” as extremists of every variety do. I would humbly suggest, however, that a solution does lie within the treasury of our respective traditions if we are so willing to agree upon mutually beneficial terms of interest. As tough a row to hoe as this may seem, the alternative is to disregard religion as a means of reconciliation in a region where it is all but impossible to disregard it as a primary societal influence.’

    I’m not sure they are reconcilable — but that’s not the end. Religions and sects have managed to reach compromises before. Frederick II recovered Jerusalem — on condition that it remain unfortified. Catholics and Protestants manage to coexist in Germany — and did so even back when religion was of importance to most people. The United States manages to remain tolerant even in combination with a great deal of religious fervor. There was even one king of Spain who described his realm as ‘the Kingdom of the Three Religions.’

    And of course there’s been the fairly consistent willingness of Islam to tolerate Judaism and Christianity — so long as they know their place. The Ottoman Empire existed as a poly-religious state for at least six hundred years — it was actually nationalism that killed it rather than religion.

    None of these solutions have been ideal — but they’ve often worked. Indeed, if the EU can be seen as a viable response to multiple national identities, surely the equivalent would be possible with religious identities.

    …or, we can just slug it out. Fran wants to go with ‘to the victors go the spoils.’

    She may get her wish.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @Art
  203. @Colin Wright

    On the other hand, that the Muslim conquerors of Jerusalem took great care to situate al Aqsa precisely where the Temple had been does suggest that it was indeed intended to be ‘the Temple rebuilt’ in some sense, however you may wish to circumscribe the implications of that.

    The phraseology is particularly pertinent to the learned among People of the Book, for whom prophecies about Islam must have been familiar. Yes, Islam lies along a continuum, though one in which periodic, epoch delineating milestones signaled a quantum shift in perspective. The Qibla’s reorientation from Jerusalem to Mecca was indicative of this.

    End times’ prophecies also herald such a shift. Given the proliferation of specific, unambiguous signs — which are not subject to interpretation — otherwise operative imperatives are subordinated to alternate instruction. As such, “Be the better son of Adam,” which appears peculiar when considering the more renowned aspects of our criteria, becomes entirely sensible when evaluated in the light of current circumstances.

    I’m not sure they are reconcilable — but that’s not the end.

    The religions themselves are not reconcilable. As you have so poignantly illustrated, their adherents’ conflict is.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  204. Art says:
    @Colin Wright

    …or, we can just slug it out. Fran wants to go with ‘to the victors go the spoils.’

    It’s not over till the fat lady sings.

    China is coming on the scene — the US is fading.

    Problem — Israel is not through being greedy and Zionist – it has more to conquer. Currently, it will not declare borders.

    A genuine world hate for Israel is growing – the rational Jew Question is growing in the US.

    p.s. Personally I am all for a real honest peace between Palestine and Israel – one that defines Israel and that compensates the Palestinian people.

    • LOL: Fran Taubman
  205. @Art

    ‘p.s. Personally I am all for a real honest peace between Palestine and Israel – one that defines Israel and that compensates the Palestinian people.’

    I think the solution that will produce peace with the least misery is to insist Israel become a genuinely egalitarian, democratic, and secular state — and make sure that Jews who aren’t prepared to live in such a state can freely emigrate to the United States or to any other country willing to admit them.

    My prediction is that the Jewish population of Israel will fall rapidly, and at some point, it will rename itself ‘Palestine.’ But I could turn out to be wrong.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  206. @AnonStarter

    ‘…As such, “Be the better son of Adam,” which appears peculiar when considering the more renowned aspects of our criteria, becomes entirely sensible when evaluated in the light of current circumstances…’

    ?

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  207. @Colin Wright

    My prediction is that the Jewish population of Israel will fall rapidly, and at some point, it will rename itself ‘Palestine.’ But I could turn out to be wrong.

    Yeah like you said that all the Israelis are booking flights to Kennedy, as soon as the US pulls the plug. Like Israel is a reality show who’s ratings are down. Just like you view about the Jews in Europe showed up at a bus stop one day. (maybe they got a telegram or phone call, no one knows, the conspiracy is not clear on this plot) and put their Jew suits on so they can go colonize Palestine. They weren’t real Jews, isn’t that what you said? No cultural continuity. They just showed up and put their Jew suits on and got their Jew books out and but on their fake Jew on. They were really Kahzars those Ashkenazim right?

    Have you figured out what BS this version is? Followed by your complete lack of understanding of the unbroken chain of command and religious cohesion inside Israel as well as in exile. Israel is not going anywhere, especially not back to NY. My sister in law’s brother and wife just moved to Israel, all of his kids and grand kids are there. You constantly make the Jews out to be cartoon characters. There is a continuity and it has survived and thrived which in itself proves that something major is amongst the aura of Judaism. There is something there that is relevant to the world, whether you like it or not. Jews have defied logic and dramatically have survived against all odds.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  208. @Art

    p.s. Personally I am all for a real honest peace between Palestine and Israel – one that defines Israel and that compensates the Palestinian people.

    No one is making peace with you Art you have a pretty silly view of Jews, no one is showing up at your peace party. Get lost.

    No one is making peace with the Palestinians, until the Muslims come clean about their real goal, which was never about peace and land for the Palestinians, it was about getting the Jews to submit to the Islam. To become subservient. It took a long time for the Jews to see it, but now that the peace process has been shown to be a Trojan Horse for a Juden free Palestine, the left and peace path for two state solution are in the rear view mirror. The Palestinians tried to be the eternal victims of the world, so that the world would turn against the Jews and terrorize them into submission. The EU and UN had a hey day with that plan but ultimately it has failed. It has failed because it is a lie. It has also failed because the world has moved on to other more pressing problems. The Palestinians are a drop in the bucket compared the other problems of the world. The EU is failing, the UN turns in circles. The world health organization is a joke etc.

    The world is tired of the left and the Palestinians. Really tired. They want their governments to protect and help their citizens, not the Palestinians, who were given more then enough support to sort out and solve their problems. It is crystal clear that the Palestinians never wanted to solve their problems. They wanted to defeat the Jews permanently, they want the whole enchilada of Palestine. The Arabs cannot defeat Israel militarily. The Jihad resistance keeps their populations in ruins and poverty. It is a fact. The Jihadist resistance is nothing but a gang of gun toting men who’s only job is defeating Israel. They have not developed their population thru education, technology and tourism.
    The world needs problem solvers and doers, not permanent victims. The Jews show up to help. What are the Jihadist doing?

    • Replies: @Art
  209. @Colin Wright

    It was narrated from Abu Musa Al-Ash’ari that the Messenger of Allah ﷺ said:

    Before the Hour comes, there will be tribulation like pieces of black night, when a man will wake up with faith but deny by evening, or he will have faith in the evening but deny by morning. And the one who is sitting will be better than the one who is standing, and the one who is standing will be better than the one who is walking, and the one who is walking will be better than the one who is running. So break your bows, cut their strings and strike your swords against rocks, and if anyone enters upon anyone of you, let him be like the better of the two sons of Adam.

    The reference to “the two sons of Adam” refers to Cain and Abel, the latter of whom did not raise a hand to defend himself against his brother. There are numerous statements of this kind attributed to the Prophet, statements which provide instruction that differs markedly from what we typically perceive as the correct course of action.

    Many shaikhs and imams hold that ours are the end times. While this perspective has been among us for many generations, the signs we currently witness are widespread, simultaneous, and so plain as to be realistically undeniable:

    [MORE]

    Wild animals will be gathered into captivity and kept in collections in pens and cages.
    Murder will be considered a minor act.
    Men will get payment for their reproductive organs.
    Reducing weights and measures of goods will be a means of increasing profits.
    The person earning a proper and lawful livelihood will be scorned and the person earning his living from unfair means will be admired.
    The main purpose in life will be earning and enjoying.
    Aphrodisiacs will be used to strengthen the body for sodomy.
    Usury will gain solid ground.
    Adultery will be commonplace.
    The murder victim will not know why he is murdered and the killer will not know why he killed.
    Mansions like palaces will be constructed.
    Bribery will become like a custom.
    There will be no regard for the ties of relationship.
    Murder will increase.
    Fools will be made rulers.
    Forbearance will be called cowardice and weakness.
    Ministers of government will be liars.
    The practice of divorce will increase.
    A liar will be considered an acceptable witness.
    Homosexuality will be openly practiced.
    Good people will keep silent fearing others’ foul speech.
    Goodness and evil will be viewed from the same perspective.
    Young boys will be used like women on payment.
    Unworthy persons will meddle in affairs of state.
    Men will keep their hair in a ladylike manner.
    The governors will consider the wealth of the people as their own and they will attack the morality of women.
    Governments will stockpile grains to maintain prices.
    Government will be entrusted to those unworthy of it.

    There are more specific ones which have been fulfilled as well. For example:

    The earth will vomit oblong pieces of its liver like columns of gold and silver. The murderer will come and say “I killed for this,” and the deserter will come and say “I deserted my family for this,” and the thief will come and say “My hand has been severed for this.”

    When geological field studies were done and the maps of oil deposits drawn, World War I broke out and divided them up as spoil. It happens that crude oil is first poured into large, open, rectangular settling fields acres in size, which from a distance look like nothing so much as a huge slab of liver.

    In any event, this is all intended merely to provide some understanding of our perspective.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  210. @AnonStarter

    ‘… The reference to “the two sons of Adam” refers to Cain and Abel, the latter of whom did not raise a hand to defend himself against his brother. There are numerous statements of this kind attributed to the Prophet, statements which provide instruction that differs markedly from what we typically perceive as the correct course of action…’

    The parallel to the Christian injunction to ‘turn the other cheek’ is obvious.

    However, I’ll point out being convinced the end times are upon is isn’t exactly a novelty. The early Christians were sure it would happen soon — like, within their lifetimes. The First Crusade owed much to millennial hysteria. Innumberable signs indicated the world was about to end, and it was very important to be in Jerusalem when it happened. Noteworthily, the whole irruption wasn’t so much a military expedition as a popular pilgrimage by some people who just happened to be rather violent.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  211. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Yeah like you said that all the Israelis…’

    You seem to be distinctly unenthusiastic about the prospect of Israel being ‘genuinely egalitarian, democratic, and secular.’

    I take it such safeguards cease to be desirable if it is Jews that are in the driver’s seat.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  212. @Colin Wright

    The parallel to the Christian injunction to ‘turn the other cheek’ is obvious.

    It is my understanding that, in its original tongue, the idiom “turn the other cheek” implied the opposite of what is commonly understood (as in “turn to them the face of wrath”). Nevertheless, what matters is the perception of Christians themselves. I’m reminded of the command in Isaiah to beat swords into ploughshares.

    However, I’ll point out being convinced the end times are upon is isn’t exactly a novelty.

    Yes. This is what I had meant when including the phrase “[w]hile this perspective has been among us for many generations, …”

    A passage from one of my teachers:

    … Jews and Christians are warned to prepare for Armageddon by beating their swords into plowshares, Muslims for The Hour by becoming like the better son of Adam: instead, Jews, Christians and Muslims — many and few — are actively promoting Apocalypse. Avoid Messianic Apocalyptic Dementia, or believing that you (or those of your communion) are uniquely and divinely anointed and appointed to save the world, or a remnant, or to usher in a new world or a new message for the faithful, while this world falls away into the Fire. This all-time favorite tool of deception is today a main event in media circuses and more often fatal.

  213. @Colin Wright

    I am into Israel matching the countries around it. And yes I would not mind if Israel became a theocracy instead of a democracy. It is that important to have a Jewish state. When Jews can move to Saudi Arabia and practice Judaism I will think about Israel becoming egalitarian, democratic and secular. But right now what is the point. You want Israel to be the only state like that, sort of like a death nail. It will become another failed Islamic state run by a king or dictator.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Art
    , @anon
  214. @Fran Taubman

    ‘I am into Israel matching the countries around it…’

    Sure that’s not setting the bar too high, Fran? Can Jews really match the dizzying heights of, say, Egypt?

  215. What’s this? More trouble atop the peace bubble?

    Bahrain rejects US push to normalise relations with Israel

    Pompeo Push for Sudan-Israel Ties Is Rebuffed

    Just last week, both countries appeared prepared to follow the UAE’s lead.

    My goodness. Could it be that they’re not such good Muslims after all? 🙂

  216. Art says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Here is the undisputed rogue reprobate squatter Jew state.

    Israel soldiers orders Palestinian families to demolish their home

    Israeli occupation forces issued demolition orders to two Palestinian-owned homes in Al-Maniya village located in north-east of Bethlehem, reported Wafa news agency.

    Head of Al-Maniya Village Council, Zeyad Kawazba, told Wafa that Israeli forces stormed the village and handed military orders to demolish two houses, because they were allegedly built without the impossible to obtain construction permits.

    A restrictive planning regime applied by Israeli authorities makes it almost impossible for Palestinians to obtain building permits in what the Oslo Accords labelled as ‘Area C’ of the West Bank, which falls under both Israeli military and administrative control, impeding the development of adequate housing, infrastructure and livelihoods.

    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200826-israel-soldiers-orders-palestinian-families-to-demolish-their-home/

  217. EXCLUSIVE: Mohammed bin Salman pulls out of planned meeting in Washington with Netanyahu

    “However the Crown Prince had one condition: that the visit be kept secret until he was in Washington. His advisers told him that if the visit were leaked, the CIA, Congress, journalists, campaigners for Khashoggi and lawyers for Jabri would all have time to launch a massive negative campaign against him and his presence in Washington would become a nightmare.

    “MBS was calculating that if he suddenly appears with Netanyahu the big event would be enough to relaunch his image as a peacemaker,” the source said.

    Meanwhile, back in reality …

    Hostility to the deal in the Gulf has been evident on social media, despite active Emirati and Saudi efforts to control and counter online criticism, with “Normalisation is treason” and “Gulf peoples against normalisation” both trending as hashtags.

  218. jamie b. says:
    @Patagonia Man

    So… you’re saying that the Merriam-Webster definition of ‘racism’ was not changed?

  219. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @Fran Taubman

    I am into Israel matching the countries around it.

    The problem, cubicle robot, is Yid is an illegal, alien parasite.

    Yid does not belong except by violence, coercion, lies, bribery, blackmail.

    Even with those five Yid actions/attributes, Yid still does not belong.

    A cult that is empty, soulless, ugly, pointless, worthless.

    Look deeply into a mirror.

    Make sure toilet close.

  220. Art says:

    What the hell — as always, Netanyahu to make US foreign policy. New “friends” be dammed.

    Israel Opposes Any F-35 Sale to UAE Despite Their Warming Ties

    JERUSALEM (Reuters) – Israel would oppose any U.S. F-35 warplane sales to the United Arab Emirates despite forging relations with the Gulf power, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Tuesday, citing a need to maintain Israeli military superiority in the region.

    https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-08-18/israel-minister-says-policy-on-us-arms-sales-to-uae-unchanged

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  221. @Art

    I think that’s about as clear an indication of what “normalization” means to Israel: Israel assumes the role of master, the remainder, the role of slaves.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Art
  222. @AnonStarter

    ‘JERUSALEM (Reuters) – Israel would oppose any U.S. F-35 warplane sales to the United Arab Emirates despite forging relations with the Gulf power, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Tuesday, citing a need to maintain Israeli military superiority in the region.’

    What’s illuminating is to consider how agreement to this looks from the Arab end: they’re to accept military inferiority in their own region.

    I’m sure that’s just fine with them. They know their place, don’t they?

    The bleakly amusing bit is that these days avionics and electronics are everything; Israel could agree to the Emirates getting ‘F-35’s’ — it wouldn’t necessarily threaten their aerial superiority at all. But they can’t even concede nominal equality to the Arabs.

    …It’s actually kind of a good thing. A wise Israel might actually last a lot longer than the current regime of thugs and fools. They keep helpfully humiliating anyone who is tempted to cooperate with them.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  223. Art says:
    @AnonStarter

    I think that’s about as clear an indication of what “normalization” means to Israel: Israel assumes the role of master, the remainder, the role of slaves.

    Those were UAE surrender terms.

    There are reports that MBS is about to do the same.

  224. @Colin Wright

    …It’s actually kind of a good thing. A wise Israel might actually last a lot longer than the current regime of thugs and fools. They keep helpfully humiliating anyone who is tempted to cooperate with them.

    Absolutely. Gotta love those silver linings.

    On that note, thank God for our resident zionists.

  225. Art says:

    The Joy of Jew Democracy – vote for who will bomb Gaza the most – Ganz or Netanyahu?

    Netanyahu vs Gantz: Gaza Escalation as Reflection of Israel’s Political Rivalry

    Only recently, the Palestinian group, Hamas, and Israel seemed close to reaching a prisoner exchange agreement, where Hamas would release several Israeli soldiers held in Gaza while Israel would set free an unspecified number of Palestinian detainees held in Israeli prisons.

    Instead of the much-anticipated announcement of some kind of a deal, on August 10, Israeli bombs began falling on the besieged Strip and incendiary balloons, originating in Gaza, made their way to the Israeli side of the fence.

    So, what happened?

    https://dissidentvoice.org/2020/08/netanyahu-vs-gantz-gaza-escalation-as-reflection-of-israels-political-rivalry/#more-108323

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  226. @Art

    ‘The Joy of Jew Democracy – vote for who will bomb Gaza the most – Ganz or Netanyahu?’

    And we go on, and on, and on. And on. It hardly stops with Israel. The ADL. Anti-Semitism. Cloying movies about Jews. Books about Jews. The Holocaust. Do you care enough about Jews? How much money should we let Jews take? What about Jews promoting Black Lives Matter, unlimited immigration, ever-more bizarre forms of sexual deviance? The role of Jews in so many revolutions?

    When does it end? How much can one people demand? Lately I’ve been getting sick of how much attention Jews expect — and get.

    There must be about sixteen million Jews in the world. So I was thinking, how much attention do we pay to other peoples whose numbers are more or less the same? Lebanese? There are between thirteen and eighteen million of those. Guatemalans? About nineteen million. Malaysians? My — thirty three million. Do we know about, care about, and pay attention to Malays twice as much as we do to Jews?

    It really gets to be a bit much. I’d love to just ignore Jews — but one can’t. We’ve tried — and look what they’ve gotten up to. I think about reading more books about Jews, about filling in the blank spots in my knowledge about Jews — and then I ask why? Am I this concerned to fill in the blank spots in my knowledge of Lebanese? Of Guatemalans? Of Malays? I’m sure they all have their peculiarities, problems, and tendencies — but I can really get by without knowing. They won’t make it my business.

    One starts to resent it. I want to think about other things, but then one looks at the name on the byline, at who is funding the people running for President — and one realizes one can’t afford to.

    Jesus. Would they give it a rest? Take up knitting or something? I like gardening, myself. They should try it.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Art
  227. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    Can’t ignore pure evil, the Spawn of Satan, who
    are turning earth into their controlled, owned hell.

    Hell for the non Yid.

  228. Art says:
    @Colin Wright

    One starts to resent it. I want to think about other things, but then one looks at the name on the byline, at who is funding the people running for President — and one realizes one can’t afford to.

    Colin — hear hear – I share your angst. Is it worth it? I think so. In the elite circles, we are still losing big time. But among the populous, I think we are making progress. Jew political coercion is becoming obvious.

    Art

    p.s. Hard to believe it, but Biden is weaker than Trump on Israel.

    On “Unconditional” Military Aid To Israel, Biden-Harris Far To The Right Even Of Bush Admin

    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/unconditional-military-aid-israel-biden-harris-far-right-bush-admin

    • Replies: @Art
  229. Art says:

    FBI – Deep State – Again

    Goes against Trump — again!

    FBI finds no evidence “indicating Antifa involvement” in DC protest despite Trump’s claims: document

    But the FBI did find evidence that far-right groups urged violence against police and protesters, the report shows
    The FBI found no intelligence “indicating Antifa involvement” in violence surrounding Sunday’s protest near the White House despite President Donald Trump’s attempts to cast blame on radical leftists, according to an FBI situation report obtained by The Nation.
    An FBI source told the outlet that other situation reports, produced daily by the FBI since the weekend, have similarly shown no evidence of Antifa involvement.

    https://www.salon.com/2020/06/03/fbi-finds-no-evidence-indicating-antifa-involvement-in-dc-protest-despite-trumps-claims-document/

    Clearly Antifa is a terrorist organization. No matter its name. Witness Portland.

  230. Art says:
    @Art

    p.s. Hard to believe it, but Biden is weaker than Trump on Israel.

    Biden is most pro-Israel nominee ever (and he will ‘defeat’ ‘hypercritical’ voices in the party)

    Pro-Israel advocates are overjoyed at the prospect of Joe Biden becoming the Democratic nominee for president this week. They say there has Never been a nominee from any party who is so pro-Israel, that Joe Biden personally wrote the Democratic platform that is “straight down the line” behind Israel, and that his choice of Kamala Harris as veep reflects his love of Israel. And as for the “hypercritical” new members of Congress, that attitude will be “defeated” under Biden.

    “We’ve actually never had a nominee on any side of the aisle for president who has a longer and stronger record than Joe Biden,” Halie Soifer of the Jewish Democratic Council of America said on an American Jewish Committee zoom call yesterday.

    https://mondoweiss.net/2020/08/biden-is-most-pro-israel-nominee-ever-and-he-will-defeat-hypercritical-voices-in-the-party/

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  231. @Art

    ‘Pro-Israel advocates are overjoyed at the prospect of Joe Biden becoming the Democratic nominee for president this week… ‘

    Catastrophic war with Iran, here we come!

  232. Art says:

    More crimes against humanity by the worldwide Jew tribe.

    These Palestinian children (and their families) are marked for life as troublemakers by the jack booted IDF Jews.

    Palestinian child prisoners in Israel

  233. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Behind the crime, a Yid:

    Palestine: 1947 escape from British prison exposed as inside job

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/30/palestine-1947-escape-from-british-prison-exposed-as-inside-job

  234. Art says:

    WATCH: Israeli soldiers video their beating of Palestinian workers

    Palestinian media have posted a video reportedly showing Israeli soldiers beating Palestinian workers on their way to work in Israel earlier this week. The video appears to have been taken by the Israeli soldiers themselves. It is unclear how the video became public.

    According to one of the victims, the video only shows a little of the beating, which lasted about an hour: “The video is nothing compared to the real thing.” The soldiers also reportedly stole money from the workers.

    https://israelpalestinenews.org/watch-israeli-soldiers-video-their-beating-of-palestinian-workers/

  235. Art says:

    Zionist Christians receives mighty blow!

    Proof – Paster John Hagee takes money from Israel.

    https://www.trunews.com/stream/evangelicals-for-hire-israel-paid-u-s-christian-zionists-to-push-propaganda

  236. This interests me.

    Off and on, I’ve had a running debate with people here and elsewhere as to whether the Antifa/Black Bullshit Matters riots are controlled or not. I tend to go with not — just because I’m skeptical of colossal, all-embracing conspiracy theories in general.

    However, I have to admit: about a week ago, it seemed to dawn on the media/political establishment that if this crap continued, Trump was likely to win reelection.

    …and of a sudden, it all seems to be getting shut down. I follow Andy Ngo, and he’s just not finding the material he used to. Now, rather than further outrages, it’s just arrests and inanities from politicians.

    https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo…

    So maybe there is some consortium who knew where the plug was, and pulled it.

    This weekend may clarify matters — one way or the other. The DC police just killed a genuine negro. What — if anything — happens in consequence?

  237. …and the fix would definitely seem to be in.

    Suddenly, the mayor of Portland is singing a different tune:

    ‘@tedwheeler
    after nearly 100 days of violent protests in his city involving people who were arrested, let go & went on to kill: “It doesn’t sit well by me that police make an arrest, somebody is processed in the jail & they’re right back on the street.”’

    So that’s how you feel, is it? Just when did you have this revelation?

  238. Outwardly attacking and vilifying whites is just dandy and par for the course, but if there is even a hint of an “anti-Semitic” canard, alarm bells start going full blast:

    https://www.aish.com/ci/a/Anti-Semitism-in-Two-Hit-TV-Shows.html

    The Umbrella Academy and Lovecraft Country trafficked in damaging anti-Jewish slurs.

    The Umbrella Academy depicts a family of superheroes who must come together to protect the world. Among the evil actors they battle is a “lizard person” who disguises himself as a human, and an organizer of evil forces who speaks Yiddish, among other languages. This seems to echo the bizarre anti-Jewish conspiracy theories of former soccer player and BBC sportscaster David Icke, who has written books claiming that many prominent Jews are actually secret “lizard people” seeking to world domination.

    Lovecraft Country, HBO’s hit new series, has only aired a few episodes, but it’s already gained over a million viewers – and raised troubling questions about its recent use of anti-Jewish tropes.

    The show is based on Matt Ruff’s bestselling 2016 novel about a group of Black Americans travelling through the US during the Jim Crow era. In addition to the monstrous racism the characters encounter from prejudiced White Americans, they also have to contend with actual monsters as the book and show veer into horror. It’s a clever conceit, stressing racism’s gruesomeness and horrifying nature.

    “With its atmospheric blend of supernatural and societal menaces, Lovecraft Country (uses) horror filmmaking as a form of social commentary on American race relations,” noted Salamishah Tillet in a recent New York times review of the show.

    On August 30, the series’ third episode aired. Titled “Holy Ghost,” it showed the character Leti buying a dilapidated old Victorian Mansion in a mostly White Chicago neighborhood. As she begins to fill the house with Black tenants, her White neighbors turn menacing – eventually turning on her and burning a cross on her front lawn. This horror outside is matched by horror inside, as restless spirits threaten the tenants. Eventually, Leti finds out the root cause of these angry ghosts: a scientist with the very Jewish sounding name Hiram Epstein apparently kidnapped eight Black people years before. He conducted gruesome experiments on them, murdered them, and buried their bodies underneath the house. It’s their souls that cause some of the mayhem in the hour-long episode.

    In a show without any other Jewish characters, the introduction of such a Jewish-sounding name, particularly one who is so bloodthirsty and destructive, is startling.

    Philissa Cramer, Editor-in-Chief of the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, is a fan of the show, and wrote about her reaction watching the episode: “I was surprised Sunday night to hear a typically Jewish name applied to a character whose only appearance was as a ghost – and whose story instantly evoked one of history’s most durable antisemitic stereotypes.”

    That stereotype is the accusation that Jews somehow are driven to kill non-Jews: the “blood libel” that’s plagued Europe and the Middle East for centuries.

    Absolute Chutzpah.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  239. Miro23 says:

    Seems that the “Fallen soldiers losers and suckers” story was invented by Jeffrey Goldberg at the Atlantic.

    US President Donald Trump rejected allegations that he bashed fallen soldiers as “losers” and “suckers,” hitting back at a recent story in the Atlantic that relied on anonymous sources, which he called “more made-up fake news.”
    The Atlantic article, published on Thursday, claims the president disparaged dead American soldiers on several occasions throughout his term, citing a flock of nameless officials and aides, none of whom would go on record with their accounts.

    https://www.rt.com/usa/499974-atlantic-magazine-biden-owner/

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  240. ‘Seems that the “Fallen soldiers losers and suckers” story was invented by Jeffrey Goldberg at the Atlantic.’

    What I’m interested in is the line between the falling out between Trump and Sheldon Adelson and Jeffrey Goldberg’s hit piece.

    I wonder if Oberkommando der Zion is trying to compel Trump to start that war with Iran that he was paid to start?

  241. @Widenose Privilege

    ‘…It’s a clever conceit, stressing racism’s gruesomeness and horrifying nature…’

    Oy.

    You know, a while back it occurred to me that racism is actually…just not that big a deal.

    I’ve become very frankly and consciously racist with respect to blacks. At the same time, I find myself able to get along perfectly well with individual blacks — and certainly able to treat them fairly as customers and employees. Indeed, if anything, accepting my inner Klansman has made me more relaxed and comfortable around blacks. If they don’t give me a problem, there’s no problem.

    So is racism so awful? Is it actually worse than being a dishonest businessman, or an exploitative employer? Maybe it’s pretty small potatoes, really.

  242. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    I need to change

    my predicted vote percentage that Trump will

    receive from 68% minimum to 82% minimum.

  243. Ron Unz says:
    @Miro23

    Seems that the “Fallen soldiers losers and suckers” story was invented by Jeffrey Goldberg at the Atlantic.

    Moon of Alabama had some excellent coverage:

    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/09/how-attacks-on-trump-help-him-to-make-his-case.html

    He quoted some internet journalist named Michael Tracey who had a plausible reconstruction:

  244. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    The neocon prism bends truth into lie.

    “Neocon” itself is a lie. Should be Yidcon.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @anon
  245. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    or lie into “truth”

    • Replies: @anon
  246. anon[159] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    @anon[327]

    The neocon jew prism bends honest truth into jew lie and jew lie into jew “truth”.

    “Neocon” itself is a lie. Should be jewcon.

    FIFY! 😉

  247. The comment you are reading branches off a discussion elsewhere on the site, where it would have been off-topic.

    I wrote:

    Now why don’t you tell the rest of the story? Like, what was the word X in the chant, “X will not replace us”? What rôle did this word play in Virginia’s declaration of emergency August 12, 2017, and in the actions of the subsequent kangaroo court? Who is Roberta Kaplan? And so on.

    @baythoven wrote:

    May I bother you to explain, if you would pardon my ignorance?

    I was hoping that my interlocutor in the other thread would explain, for a truthful answer would have been more credible had it come from him. Coming from me, the answers must inevitably sound like the answers of a mere enthusiast.

    However, since my interlocutor has not explained and since you have asked, as briefly as I can but, unfortunately, still at substantial length:

    [MORE]

    1. The word X was “Jews.” On the evening of August 11, 2017, rallygoers of the Right held a torchlight parade in Charlottesville, Virginia. You probably saw media-curated, maximally unflattering photographs of the event at the time; but the entire media narrative regarding the events of August 11 and 12 was a desperate cascade of lies (not that you should take my word for it), so whatever the average, honest citizen thinks that he remembers about the event probably never occurred. Anyway, the parade took up the chant.

    2. Frustratingly, the rôle the word played in Virginia’s otherwise inexplicable declaration of emergency has never been established. Cowardly Republicans in the state legislature never asked as far as I know, so the Democratic governor never had to answer. Regarding the kangaroo court, I really ought to (but regrettably probably won’t) find the time to research, write and submit to The Unz Review a long, thorough article, or series of articles, that reviews the court’s indefensible actions, based on court transcripts plus exculpatory evidence the court disallowed. Moreover, the disgusting maneuver the U.S. Justice Department pulled after Virginia’s verdict, plea-bargaining the federal death penalty to extract a federal guilty plea with a federal life sentence on federal civil-rights charges—thus ensuring that any state appeal by James Alex Fields, Jr., would be moot—was shameful.

    Since I have not researched or written the aforementioned article, let me tease one, minor, isolated fact that suggests the revolting flavor of the larger kangaroo-court proceedings. The court’s clerk initially assigned a public defender who, coïcidentally and separately, had been representing plaintiffs suing the city on grounds that the city’s planned removal of Robert E. Lee’s statue (the same planned removal that caused the rally of August 11 and 12) violated the statue’s deed of gift. Presumably, the name of the lawyer in question had just happened to be the name randomly atop the clerk’s routine rotation that day—I know of no other reason the lawyer would be assigned as public defender—but when the judge realized that the defendant had randomly got a competent consellor who would enthusiastically defend the defendant, the judge dismissed the public defender on grounds of conflict of interest.

    Since defense attorneys are supposed to be biased in favor of their clients, one may be forgiven for wondering whether the putative conflict of interest were not the opposite, a coïncidence of interest. Anyway, the judge, apparently determined to convict Fields on way or another, would not have it.

    There was a lot more, like video evidence (never seen by the public) the judge reluctantly allowed his hand-picked jury to view but for some reason denied to the view of the gallery, and so on. The replacement public defender was, shall we say, less than enthusiastic in the defense of her client.

    One does not presume that you had the time or interest to pursue voluminous further writings on the topic, but for reference, various further information (though admittedly not a complete picture) is found here.

    3. Roberta Kaplan is a high-profile Jewish lawyer representing defendants in an astonishingly tendentious civil suit against named rallygoers. To give an example of the suit’s vaporous complaints, the parade’s route had passed a synagogue, thus putatively violating the congregants’ civil rights. (Not targeted, not threatened, not even perceived, but merely passed; or, rather, passed while shouting slogans unrelated to the synagogue—a synagogue of which the paraders in the dark were probably not even aware—but slogans Jews do not like to hear.) According to Mike Peinovich, Kaplan now tours synagogues and other Jewish assemblies nationwide to raise funds for the suit which she all but openly advertises as mere lawfare designed to bankrupt the defendants.

    Now, if I were you, I would find comments like mine tendentious. I do not ask you to adopt my point of view, nor am I in command of all the relevant facts, but the whole tenor of the official reaction to the events of August 11 and 12 just stinks. James Alex Fields, Jr., was not speeding but was driving at 23 miles per hour (speed being time divided by distance as you know, such that video evidence proves the speed) on a street into which Fields had been misdirected by barricades that, if I understand, had been mischievously shifted by members of the Antifa mob. A shotgun had recently been brandished near Fields by a hostile Antifant perched atop a parked car, so when two members of the mob, without provocation, smashed opposite sides of Fields’ car with poles, breaking out a taillight on the one side and the passenger’s window on the other, Fields probably, reasonably thought—during that panicked instant—that the man with the shotgun or a similar Antifant had opened fire on him. So Fields put his head down and hit the accelerator.

    No one knows why the replacement public defender failed to present, in a straightforward way, the straightforward case for self defense I have just outlined.

    No member of law enforcement has as far as I know ever tried to figure out who the two men with poles were, and the man with the shotgun (despite appearing as a witness in Fields’ trial) was never charged, but Fields gets a life sentence for self defense against a hostile, surrounding, aggressive, drug-addled Leftist mob? How does that work?

    I have not even mentioned the corrupt trials of the other four Charlottesville defendants, nor the predictably friendly treatment the judge and D.A. afforded the black man that had provoked them.

    In my opinion, there was no justice in Charlottesville. Never during my lifetime have I followed such a blatant miscarriage of the law in the United States of America.

    You now need no longer wonder why so many commenters at The Unz Review today show so little faith in the courts to afford a fair trial in Wisconsin to Kyle Rittenhouse. (I actually suspect for various reasons that Rittenhouse will indeed get a fair trial, but that is to be seen and is a topic for another day.)

    Thanks for asking. I wish that I could have managed a shorter reply but, even at this length, the reply hardly begins to suggest the Commonwealth of Virginia’s abuse of the law at Charlottesville.

    • Thanks: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @baythoven
    , @iffen
  248. baythoven says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Very kind of you to reply at such length. The point number 1. is what I was in most need of learning, but I appreciate all the additional commentary as well.

  249. iffen says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Were you at the parade and did you join in the chant? Do you know what % of rally goers participated in the parade? The reason that I ask is that not long after the event I read that initially the chant was, “You will not replace us” with the “you” morphing into Jews in different sections and at different times.

    I also point out the event was promoted as Unite the Right. If the rally became an exclusive anti-Semitic one, that would negate the Unity part. You remember subsets and Venn, right?

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  250. @iffen

    Were you at the parade?…

    No.

    I knew in advance about the rally of August 12, 2017; although, of course, no one except maybe Gov. McAuliffe could have anticipated how significant the rally would turn out to be. As for the parade of August 11, 2017, I first learned of that when you did: in the news.

    Cowardly, I avoided the event so as not to lose my job.

    [N]ot long after the event I read that initially the chant was, “You will not replace us” with the “you” morphing into Jews in different sections and at different times.

    I did not know this, but it sounds right.

    I also point out the event was promoted as Unite the Right. If the rally became an exclusive anti-Semitic one, that would negate the Unity part. You remember subsets and Venn, right?

    Maybe. Right-wingers were pretty giddy then, however, as you may recall. I am unsure that anyone had thought it out as logically as you have just done.

    Did you attend any part of the event?

    • Replies: @iffen
  251. ‘Mayor
    @tedwheeler
    announced that as police commissioner, he is banning
    @PortlandPolice
    from using tear gas under all circumstances. They were previously restricted to using it only on life safety emergencies, such as when rioters do arson attacks.’

    There’s a wise policy. I wonder if he’s expecting the police to use guns and clubs instead, or perhaps go with hand-to-hand combat?

    I’ve been tear-gassed. Obviously, there are more formidable forms of the stuff, but as I experienced it in Berkeley circa 1970, it merely fills you with an overpowering desire to go somewhere the tear gas isn’t — like, several blocks away. Really, an eminent pacific solution to the problem at hand.

  252. iffen says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    although, of course, no one except maybe Gov. McAuliffe could have anticipated how significant the rally would turn out to be

    Maybe he wasn’t the only one. Maybe some people saw the chance the prove to the world that “the right” is anti-Semitic to the core and willing to kill “innocent” people who oppose them.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
  253. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    From 2005, Wayne Madsen.
    Madsen on some topics like Trump is questionable. Not here.

    THE NEOCON POWER GRAB AT NSA AND AN ATTEMPT TO STIFLE THE PRESS

    What has some NSA officials worried is that with pro-Israeli neocons now engrained within the CIA, Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), State Department, and National Security Council, NSA is ripe for penetration by Israeli intelligence. NSA has a troubled past with Israel. In 1967, Israeli warplanes launched a premeditated attack on the NSA surveillance ship, the USS Liberty, killing and wounding a number of U.S. sailors and NSA civilian personnel. Convicted Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard compromised a number of NSA sensitive sources and methods when he provided a garage full of classified documents to Israel. But NSA is also aware of an incident where Israelis used a contractor, RCA, to gain access to yet additional NSA sources and methods. In the 1980s, against the wishes of NSA, the Reagan administration forced NSA to permit RCA, one of its major contractors, to develop a tethered aerostat (balloon) signals intelligence and direction finding system for the Israeli Defense Force.

    Full article:

    https://cryptome.org/nsa-stifle.htm

    • Replies: @anon
  254. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    Madsen on some topics like Trump is questionable

    To be clear, madsen is questionable when Madsen writes about Trump.

  255. The Mystery of the Lockdowns

    How many COVID deaths could Trump have prevented by acting differently? Likely answer: zero. Recent studies find no evidence cross-country differences in lockdown policies have had any impact on COVID. For more, see –
    https://naimisha_forest.silvrback.com/the-mystery-of-the-lockdowns

  256. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Don’t care much for Carlin but this worth hearing:

    George Carlin told us about the Corona panic years ago

  257. Trump, at a recently rally in South Carolina:

    The fact is, we don’t have to be in the Middle East, other than we want to protect Israel. We’ve been very good to Israel. Other than that, we don’t have to be in the Middle East.

    Thank you, Mr. President, for finally coming clean.

    So much for the “conspiracy theory” smear.

  258. @Ron Unz

    Now here’s something for a Californian to take up. This is in Rupert Murdoch’s Australian broadsheet

    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/californians-first-to-catch-woke-wave-but-its-a-dumper/news-story/0b8518831764362befcb29f65ebb7a0f
    What is striking is this passage:

    The latest outrage is a radical reworking of the school curriculum, mandating a semester-long course in ethnic studies to teach “the four ‘i’s of oppression” — ideological, institutional, interpersonal and internalised.

    Not all ethnic groups are discriminated against, apparently. The course notes invite students to write a paper on the historical circumstances “that have led to Jewish and Irish Americans gaining racial privilege”.”

    Now that needs all sorts of explanation if the quote is correct 😎.

  259. Rico says:
    @anon

    It was returned to the wrong religion though..

  260. Anonymous[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Haha. I just saw a perfect quote for the occasion in the comment section:

    “I didn’t attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.” Mark Twain

    • Thanks: Wizard of Oz
  261. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Seems many rumors regarding Joseph Kennedy, Sr., bootlegging,
    dealing with mafia for 60s election, more, all CIA creations.

    CIA mostly scum so I can believe this.

    Robert Kennedy Jr. | Hotboxin’ with Mike Tyson

    Wouldn’t doubt CIA and other set up Ted
    to be forever blackmailable.

    Was right about Ginsburg.
    Wrote she would not last to Oct.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  262. This could furnish a useful precedent.

    https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/09/14/san-francisco1000-month-pregnant-black-pacific-islanders-improve-health-outcomes/

    If — say — at some point in the future, we wanted to increase white birthrates, it would be hard to argue that it would be wrong to pay stipends to white parents only.

  263. ‘Israel-Advocacy Groups Urge Facebook to Label Criticism of Israel as Hate Speech’

    That wouldn’t be precisely honest — but it would be a step towards honesty.

  264. @anon

    If you have time to listen to the loopy anti-vaccser on that video you have too much time on your hands and should try thinking as a novel recreation when tempted to branch out expansively on the ways of the world. BTW do you know when the CIA was created? I think you may be muddling odd things you have heard about the CIA with same on FBI….

    • Replies: @anon
  265. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Your comment could be mistaken
    for a scared kid peeing in his pants.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  266. @anon

    Confirming the impression you give of being scatterbrained and addle headed. Take comfort: you are nnot alone and you will find co.mpany on UR where you will pass for normal.

  267. Anonymous[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ron Unz

    Now here is something for you Ron which I only locate here because I said I would on a Facebook interchange with someone (smart enough to have a PhD but he thinks 16 year old s should be able to vote!!) and considerably younger than me. I am about paste here a long ramble that his remarks about an article on anti-Semitism set off. I didn’t read it all but decided to throw a small smoke bomb.

    Here is what Facebook declared outside its community standards and wouldn’t allow me to post. What would you pick as the reasons?

    As one brought up without an anti-Semitic thought or even conception of it (well out 100 yards champ and full forward was Jewish – at least father was – and full back was too, but the school standard for anti-Semitism was to comment on a boy’s large nose as Jewish when his name was classic Armenian). Now I rejoice in having half Jewish grandchildren who are very bright and fun. One of them said after reading The Jewish Century which I had given to her, said “why don’t you become Jewish grandpa ?” because of my enthusiasm for the book and what it was about. So…. it has been an interesting avocation in recent years to sort through the usually absurd anti Senitism on an excellent (if somewhat cranky) website unz.com owned by the brilliant, and Jewish, Ron Unz. Also mondoweiss, Gilad Atzmon plus the usually centrist and civilised Israeli media like Times of Jerusalem and Haaretz As my best rabbi friend says, sometimes from Israel, he can see no way the big problem is going to be solved. As I used to be very tough minded in understanding Israel’s often (in many people’s minds) excessive use of force it has only been gradually that I have come round close to his verdict of “hopeless”. Maybe Palestinians will eventually be pushed into some mini Hong Kongs if the Sunni Arab states abandon them and still have enough oil wealth to finance them. But I now trace the turning point in embedding anti-Semitism to the First World War, after which the course toward ruthless Zionism was almost unavoidably set. American Jews who weren’t Zionist but taking over from WASPS at the Ivies (with a few decades before full takeover) wouldn’t have been shut up. (People like our Governor-General Isaacs were anti Zionist!). My observation that educated Jews make the best “English Gentleman” would have gone on being paralled in Germany (don’t stop me for doubts and qualifications: there are plenty) and we may never have got to the point where the Cold War, American politics and the Holocaust combined to allow conquest of land already the home of Arab Christiians and Muslims whose families were there for generations before some Arabs moved in to trade with Jews. Against the counterfactual dream Central and Eastern Europe was perhaps insufficiently secular by 1912 when Chaim Waitzman allegedly said that a Jewish population of 1 per cent was the limit and that Germany already exceeded it. But now it does seem to be the case that even the changing demography of America’s once typical and majority Reform Jews – by intermarriage and low fertility – isn’t sufficient to break the hold of The Lobby (cf. Mearsheimer and Walt) on ME and Israel related policy which is perhaps the biggest single cause of the impoverishing of the US middle class over several decades. While the direct and indirect subsidies to Israel together with unnecessary wars inspired by neocons may be no. 1 it would be wrong to overlook the costs forced on the American plutocracy and born by the middle 50 per cent by the other big lobbies like healthcare and health insurance, Big Pharma, the organised Aged, arms industry, agriculture etc. Still, the control of “the narrative” through Jewish controlled Hollywood, electronic media (including much of FANGS), major newspapers etc. has made it obvious that, given a compulsory choice to be for or against Israel the Tribe (an Israeli media term as it was Einstein’s) will feel compelled to line up for Israel, even if not as significantly as the major billionaire donors to both major parties. I don’t know much about BDS but I think we are lucky in Australia that Bob Carr, and lesser politicians, feel able to express views that, in the US would be met by the most meretricious affronts to the First Amendment in many legislatures. We have I think a lot to be grateful for in the mechanics of our democracy from preferential voting, compulsory voting (presumably impossible in the US because of the 13 per cent deriving from its original sin) and restraint on election expenditure – apart from Clive Palmer. We may call ourselves a democracy with some justice, albeit shorthand, but the US definitely is not, and “it’s the Benjamins baby

    “.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  268. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Might want to contact the Fed and inquire
    about end of fake coin shortage.

    Is there an end or to be combined with a “currency shortage”?

  269. @Anonymous

    American politics and the Holocaust combined to allow conquest of land already the home of Arab Christiians and Muslims whose families were there for generations before some Arabs moved in to trade with Jews.

    There were 800,00 Jews living under Muslim rule in Arabia in 1948. There were about one million arabs living in Palestine. The Jews living in Arabia in countries like Syria, Egypt, and Iran were living there since Rome conquered Jerusalem in 70 A.D. In most cases they were second class citizens.

  270. Ruth Bader Ginsburg is going to ‘lie in state’ for two days.

    That seemed a little weird to me; Ginsburg only really became prominent when the issue of precisely when she was going to die — and the implications of that — came to the fore. Do deceased Supreme Court Justices normally lie in state?

    Not really. The only other time it happened was ninety years ago, when Taft died — who had been a president as well as a supreme court justice.

    So why Ginsburg?

    • Replies: @Wielgus
    , @Miro23
  271. Wielgus says:
    @Colin Wright

    I am inclined to paraphrase a description of what journalism is – it is saying “Ginsburg has died” to people who never knew Ginsburg was alive.

    • LOL: Colin Wright
  272. Art says:

    RPG — legacy — millions of aborted babies!

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  273. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Another 2 Ginsburg gifts to Americans: mediocrity
    becomes genius and the dead collect pay checks.

  274. @Art

    To most people in the Anglosphere the obsessional concentration in American politics and populist activism on abortion is bizarre and delusional.

    • Replies: @Art
  275. Allow me to set up “I told you so”.

    I predict that Trump’s female nominee will say of Roe v. Wade that, out of respect for the court and proper judicial method and tradition she regards precedents, especially those acted on for decades, as very important and can’t see herself voting to reverse it.

    As reversing it has proved unnecessary to chipping away at it she may have to answer questions about that by dismissing any attempt to anticipate whatever is in the ingenious, not to say devious, minds of those who may be working away at avoiding its impact may try next and wouldn’t necessarily favour appeals being heard by the SCOTUS against striking down of statutes.

  276. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    To most people in the Anglosphere the obsessional concentration in American politics and populist activism on abortion is bizarre and delusional.

    It is about freedom and voting, and abortion being forced on us by judges.

    In some states were it was put to voters, there is no major controversy.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  277. @Art

    What a very interesting conception of valuable freedoms. Is it really American to value the right to own guns or to vote to punish a woman for what she allows in her body over the right of a woman not to be forced to carry a foetus even when it is known to be destined for radicL disability? Which screaming loony Jew of BC(E) (or 1st century AD) ordered that?

  278. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Any reports of super bugs from excessive use of hand sanitizer?

    Super bugs from excessive use of antibiotics want to see new cousins.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  279. @anon

    I’m waiting for lung/throat/mouth cancer from wearing masks all the time made from tiny plastic spun-blown fibers that were never designed to be worn hours on end day after day…

  280. I decided to get out of the echo chamber for a bit and take a look at what the mainstream media might be up to:

    MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.”

    “If you are a Jew in this country and you are supporting Donald Trump, you are not looking back at our history,” he said. “And you are blind and you are walking like a lemming off a cliff. It is time to wake up. I’m sorry. This is where we are.”

    “There is no difference from what Donald Trump is preaching, from what Adolf Hitler preached in the early ’30s. Let’s just say it once and for all,” he added…’

    Ahem. Donald Trump has his faults. Hitler had his faults. However, the two have about as much in common as did Groucho Marx and Genghis Khan.

    Meanwhile, CNN describes the vandals wreaking havoc across the country as ‘demanding justice for Breonna Taylor.’

    Nobody points out that Breonna Taylor was killed when her boyfriend shot a police officer and those awful, awful policemen started shooting back. Bad luck — but it all has nothing to do with ‘justice.’

    We are doomed.

  281. Miro23 says:
    @Colin Wright

    Ruth Bader Ginsburg is going to ‘lie in state’ for two days.

    That seemed a little weird to me; Ginsburg only really became prominent when the issue of precisely when she was going to die — and the implications of that — came to the fore. Do deceased Supreme Court Justices normally lie in state?

    Not really. The only other time it happened was ninety years ago, when Taft died — who had been a president as well as a supreme court justice.

    So why Ginsburg?

    Suggestion: One thing is her official US status, and another is her ZioGlob NWO status. When she dies, she has to be accorded her real status (ZioGlob NWO) which exceeds that of her official position.

    These are parallel worlds. It solves the puzzle of the lineup of ex-US Presidents at the funeral of John McCain (address by Henry Kissinger). And when chief NWO architect Kissinger himself dies, the whole world will no doubt be called on to pay obeisance, eclipsing the death of a US President.

  282. ATTN PCR says:

    PCR’s latest, on Murray’s reports, is sensible and synoptic as usual. PCR makes the important point that CIA is using servile courts in their British satellite to shitcan freedom of information here at home in the USA.

    PCR bitches that nobody read his recent stuff. That’s not because we agree, though we do. That’s because PCR is a bit of a prima donna in avoiding comments. Nobody here is a broadcaster, speaking ex cathedra with no backtalk. There’s always something more to add.

    In the case of this latest piece, it’s worth noting that the First Amendment has long been worth about half of one of Nadler’s pantloads. Your bill of rights is gone. You’re not getting it back. CIA revoked it long ago.

    All you’ve got left is Article 19, in common law, the UDHR, and in the supreme law of the land in the ICCPR. The authoritative interpretive guidance of HRC General Comment 34 shows that Article 19 supersedes and beat hell out of the First Amendment – because it protects our right to seek and obtain information, our right to freedom of expression. It doesn’t just shield asskissing publishers like the Times and the Post who parrot CIA propaganda.

    https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrc/docs/GC34.pdf

    You want to stick for Assange, defend him with Article 19, not the toilet-paper 1st amendment.

  283. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    More on Corona’s bat soup(bs).

    Strong stomach needed:

    https://soranews24.com/2017/11/11/bat-soup-in-palau-is-pretty-intense/

  284. anonymous[437] • Disclaimer says:

    Time to get Whitney Webb back on here. She’s on fire,

    https://www.blacklistednews.com/article/78103/engineering-contagion-upmc-coronathrax-and-the-darkest.html

    Evidently Pitt has replaced UT as CIA’s center for deniable felony biowarfare research in breach of the BWC. Their brainstorm: cross SARS-COV-2 with… anthrax. For therapeutic purposes. Just try and say it with a straight face.

  285. Israel Isn’t Signing ‘Peace’ Deals

    Corporate media outlets such as Forbes (9/11/20), Bloomberg (9/15/20), CNN (9/15/20) and the Washington Post (9/16/20) have described recent accords that normalize Israeli relations with the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Bahrain as “peace” deals. This is a misleading label to apply to agreements that help cement a belligerent military alliance against Iran, and allow violence against Palestinians, Libyans and Yemenis to continue.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  286. @AnonStarter

    Must be very hard for you AS. The Jews and Arab Muslims hugging and kissing, unbearable for you to grab at semantic straws like whats a peace deals.

    Kosher food coming to Saudi Arabia very soon.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  287. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Must be very hard for you AS. The Jews and Arab Muslims hugging and kissing, unbearable for you to grab at semantic straws like whats a peace deals.

    Kosher food coming to Saudi Arabia very soon.’

    It should prove to be even more of a success than those ties you established to the Shah of Iran.

    You keep making those friends, Fran. It’ll pay off in the end, big time.

    • LOL: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  288. Art says:

    It’s a new day – celebrations in Iran, Russia, Venezuela, and Cuba. (Good for them.)

    But not in America’s traditional homes. The American middle class just took a gigantic hit – the billionaires won – the Deep State won – Trump blow the debate – he lost the election tonight.

  289. jamie b. says:

    Speaking of hair…

    This was evidently not meant to be funny.

  290. This message tests the site’s MORE feature: it includes the MORE tag with no blank lines above and below the tag.

    [MORE]

    Readers (unless interested in the site’s MORE feature) can disregard this message.

  291. @Colin Wright

    It should prove to be even more of a success than those ties you established to the Shah of Iran.

    You are not understanding what this peace deal means to the Islamist. Al Quds!! Al Quds!! and the flying horse to heaven. The third holiest spot in Islam, and the Jews live there, NO!!
    What will happen with this peace deal?.
    The Arabs and the Jews will be visiting each other, tourism. They will eat together. Do business together. Share information and technology. Prospering That is what this deal is about. Economic prosperity for all the people in the ME. AS can LOL all he wants, and you can do your usual dance with stupidity and abstract comparisons to whatever, but this deal will actually help everyone who lives in the ME. Sorry if peace and prosperity is not in your play book.

  292. @Fran Taubman

    ‘The Arabs and the Jews will be visiting each other, tourism. They will eat together. Do business together. Share information and technology. Prospering That is what this deal is about. Economic prosperity for all the people in the ME. ‘

    Sure, Fran. That’s why Egyptians are rolling in the dough. They made a peace deal with Israel.

    Now it’s happy days. Bet you wish you were an Egyptian, huh? Nice little farm in the Delta? Friendly secret policeman to make sure you stay happy?

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @Talha
  293. Miro23 says:

    ‘President Pelosi’: As Trump gets Covid-19, House speaker says continuity of government plans ‘ongoing’ with MILITARY

    https://www.rt.com/usa/502393-nancy-pelosi-trump-coronavirus-military/

    It couldn’t be clearer what they wish for.

  294. Miro23 says:

    US BS and Nord Stream 2

    And it was only because the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, set to supply Europe with Russian gas, is at odds with US interests, that European companies and governments have been repeatedly threatened by the US. “We will do everything we can to make sure that that pipeline doesn’t threaten Europe,” Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said. “We want Europe to have real, secure, stable, safe energy resources that cannot be turned off in the event Russia wants to.”

    Translation: Washington wants Europe to buy their gas and to be dependent on America. This would also allow the US to threaten to turn off the supply at any time. And to prove just how much Pompeo cares about Europe’s welfare, he’s also wielding sanctions against European companies involved in the project.

    https://www.rt.com/op-ed/502366-macron-nato-europe-us/

  295. @Colin Wright

    A good friend of mine who visited Cairo not too long ago showed me various pictures of graffiti, one of which read “CC = ✡ “.

    From what he tells me, I gather it’s a fairly common sentiment, though typically whispered if spoken at all.

    • Thanks: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  296. @AnonStarter

    ‘A good friend of mine who visited Cairo not too long ago showed me various pictures of graffiti, one of which read “CC = ✡ “.

    From what he tells me, I gather it’s a fairly common sentiment, though typically whispered if spoken at all.’

    That whole episode — Morsi and then the coup — was so sad.

    So much hope for people so long ground down — and then it was all subverted.

    …and we were on the wrong side. That was the kicker.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  297. @Fran Taubman

    ‘The Arabs and the Jews will be visiting each other, tourism. They will eat together. Do business together. Share information and technology. Prospering…’

    Something like the Jews and the Ukrainians? Or perhaps you were thinking of the Jews and the Poles?

    Who did you have in mind? There are the Jews and the Germans…well, maybe not.

    How do you see this playing out, Fran? What’s going to be different this time?

  298. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    The UAE are the biggest dorks. They didn’t stop annexation, they merely delayed it for four years:
    “US assured UAE it won’t back Israel annexation before 2024 at earliest”
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-assured-uae-it-wont-back-israel-annexation-before-2024-at-earliest-toi-told/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

    It’s OK though; historically, nothing of consequence has come out of that little portion of land.

    Peace.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
  299. There’s a lot of justified complaining about the quality of political journalism.
    Here’s a piece that seems to me to be an examplar of how it should be done,

    https://viconsortium.com/vi-government/virgin-islands-senate-to-move-quickly-to-convene-session-regarding-salary-of-senators-following-community-backlash-

    This “Staff Consortium” chap (odd name, must be a VI thing), should be writing for the NYSlimes or WaPoo,

  300. It’s OK though; historically, nothing of consequence has come out of that little portion of land.

    So you won’t mind moving the winged horse planetarium somewheres else like Mecca? Don’t let the hoof prints hit you on the way out.

    Sure, Fran. That’s why Egyptians are rolling in the dough. They made a peace deal with Israel.

    Times have changed. Egypt is not Arab, and that peace deal was made during a different time. Oil is running out. People are downtrodden, and stagnant. Israel, it’s economy and technology can help. Peace will come when the Arabs, Egyptians, and Persians acknowledge that the Jews are a holy people, and Israel a holy Jewish place. That is when peace will come. That is already starting to happen. There is a fundamental change in the way the Jews and Judaism are viewed by Arabian Islam. There are only a few Mullahs and Jihadist who inflame Jew hatred, all of the people want to make peace. You are as usual Colin pretty clueless.

    The Egyptian Morisi was overthrown my the Egyptian military who have always ran Egypt. Morsi was about to suspend checks and balances and take over as an Islamist theocracy. It was Morsi that was involved in a coup, and Islamic takeover. Have you ever studied the Muslim brotherhood and their hatred of everything non Islamic?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

    Why would anyone support the Muslim Brotherhood? Obama supported Morisi and the Brotherhood. What do you support Colin? You know very little about any of this. You know no one, Egyptian, Israeli, Arabs. No one. You are good at plumbing. My friend Lucette Lagnado, was Jewish Egyptian X-Pat. The Egyptian government helped her research her books, and let her work freely in Egypt. Officially Sisi and most Egyptians may not be pro Israel, but they are pro Jewish and want the Jews to return to Egypt. That is what she said and I believer her. I believe that all the peoples over there want to be friends. That is what all the people say.

  301. @Colin Wright

    Yep.

    When you’re looking at matters from the Arab street, all of the high-flung rhetoric about America’s support of democracy and prosperity in the Arab world is about as substantive as vapor. Most Egyptians have just resigned themselves to live their lives as best they can without rocking the boat, though the undercurrent of discontent is palpable.

    It’ll give way sooner or later. And when it does, I doubt the lessons learned from that coup will be forgotten.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  302. @Fran Taubman

    ‘So you won’t mind moving the winged horse planetarium somewheres else like Mecca? Don’t let the hoof prints hit you on the way out.’

    I wonder what amusing names we could come up with for Jew houses?

    Your casual, gratuitous, irrational, deliberately offensive bigotry really gets tedious. At least our other house bigots — including myself — bother to formulate justifications for our biases.

    Are you trying to incite antisemitism? Perhaps win some new converts to the cause? Because it’s hard to see what other effect you expect to have.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Fran Taubman
    , @Talha
  303. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Peace will come when the Arabs, Egyptians, and Persians acknowledge that the Jews are a holy people, and Israel a holy Jewish place. That is when peace will come…’

    This will work for me too!

    Acknowledge that I am a superior being, and that whatever I want, I should get, because I want it, and we can get along fine.

    No problemo. I guarantee it.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  304. A good friend of mine who visited Cairo not too long ago showed me various pictures of graffiti, one of which read “CC = ✡ “.

    I do not even know what this means, but really how important is it? Graffiti? Come on. Most people are not writing or reading much into graffiti. You always miss the big picture. There will be a reunion between Islam and the Jews. Big time. Looking for graffiti signs is well…… scarcely the point.

    Look forward not backwards.

  305. @AnonStarter

    ‘Yep.

    When you’re looking at matters from the Arab street, all of the high-flung rhetoric about America’s support of democracy and prosperity in the Arab world is about as substantive as vapor…’

    When it comes to Egypt, it’s worse.

    As you may recall, Obama literally incited the revolution that overthrew Mubarak. Those people came out on the streets because they thought America would support them.

    Hee hee. Boy, did we fool ’em. They ran up to kick the football, and…

    Israel told us to back off, and we backed off — and let Israel and the Saudis have their little way with the fellahin. How many thousands were cut down? We’ll never know.

    Compared to what we did, simply ignoring the condition of the Egyptian people would have been a kindness.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
  306. @Colin Wright

    Acknowledge that I am a superior being, and that whatever I want, I should get, because I want it, and we can get along fine.

    You never get it. The Jews are a holy people, like Christians, Muslims. We are not less we are equal. For an eternity Christianity and now Islam has made Jews to be has been fakes. Turned away by Allah, corrupt. Not real Jews deserving of no EQUAL status.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  307. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Your casual, gratuitous, irrational, deliberately offensive bigotry really gets tedious.

    And misdirected. I was talking about the UAE; there has never been a single Muslim scholar of repute or any kind of other contribution of knowledge or military or whatever that has come from that area that I can think of over the many centuries. Saying this about the holy land where the blessed feet of so many prophets (pbut) walked would be blasphemous.

    Ms. Taubman seems to have fallen off my ignore list for some reason through no effort of my own. The only thing I can think of is that I recently got a new cell phone from work and I guess the list is cached in your browser session (which I would have naturally lost). Makes sense since otherwise you have to expend server memory or database space to keep track – neither of which is worth the pay off.

    But that issue is fixed now and my ignore list is happily satiated.

    Peace.

    • Troll: Fran Taubman
    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  308. @Colin Wright

    ‘So you won’t mind moving the winged horse planetarium somewheres else like Mecca? Don’t let the hoof prints hit you on the way out.’

    I wonder what amusing names we could come up with for Jew houses?

    Your casual, gratuitous, irrational, deliberately offensive bigotry really gets tedious. At least our other house bigots — including myself — bother to formulate justifications for our biases.

    There is nothing bigoted at all about my comment. Not even sarcastic. It is the truth. The bigotry is reversed. What kind of racist bigot would try and wipe out the holy spot of another religion, by putting a structure up over the most holiest of Jewish sites? Answer: A seriously insecure bigot.

    My reference to the fantastical winged horse ride to heaven of Mohammed, never mentioned Jerusalem bun the Koran as that spot for the accent. Al Aqsa could be in Kansas. Alas the third holiest site to replace the one and only Jewish site. The build a mosque to cover this. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. Every other word is Jerusalem in the Hebrew bible.

    Jerus-n4i

    -Where two Jewish temples stood as the center of Judaism each temple stood for 400 years, before Islam was a name. The entire history of Judaism resided in those temple:

    – Where Jesus turned over the money changers tables at the Temple, that essentially was the foundation of Christianity.

    And oh yeah. Like 2 million people were on Mt. Sinai to witness that miracle, and like 4 people saw Jesus rise from the dead. No one saw Mohammed in Jerusalem ever dead or alive.
    I would watch my metaphors Colin, you are a sloppy SOB.

  309. @Fran Taubman

    ‘You never get it…’

    But we do get it, Fran. We know exactly what the Rabbi Schneerson taught, and what you believe.

    It even slips out now and then, doesn’t it?

    By the way, where is this nonsense that the Egyptians are not ‘Arab’ coming from? Keep that up, and pretty soon you’ll have to admit the Palestinians aren’t ‘Arab,’ either.

    They’re umm…errr….

  310. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…My reference to the fantastical winged horse ride to heaven of Mohammed, never mentioned Jerusalem bun the Koran as that spot for the accent. Al Aqsa could be in Kansas…’

    For someone who keeps getting upset that people don’t ‘understand’ Judaism (a religion practiced by 0.2% of humanity, and not even half of those), you sure don’t bother to grasp the first thing about Islam (a religion practiced by 20% of humanity).

    It’s the real Judaism, what God actually said. So it’s pretty nonsensical to insist God’s temple shouldn’t be a mosque.

  311. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…-Where two Jewish temples stood as the center of Judaism each temple stood for 400 years, before Islam was a name…’

    There you go. At least al Aqsa inarguably exists. There’s no solid evidence for your first temple at all. Indeed, given all the digging without result, it’s a pretty safe bet it’s an invention.

    …yet you, while refusing to accord any legitimacy to an actual and extant building, would insist on the reality of a fantasy.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Fran Taubman
  312. Can any other religion or people make a claim to Jerusalem and the land of Israel? Both Christianity and Islam recognize Judaism. Islam wants to compete with this for claims of Jerusalem? Lets see it.
    This is in Judaism’s liturgy about the High Priest functions during the day of Yom Kippur.

    JERUSALEM

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  313. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Can any other religion or people make a claim to Jerusalem and the land of Israel?’

    The Palestinians? Palestine…Palestinians. Hmm…

    God, you’re an idiot, Fran.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  314. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    At least al Aqsa inarguably exists.

    It’s pretty interesting that the temple compound happens to be built at an angle that approximates toward the Kaaba in Makkah. If you look at a satellite image of the Aqsa mosque, it fits naturally at the southern point without being diagonal or off the natural angle of the compound at all. What’re the chances, eh?

    Peace.

  315. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Are you trying to incite antisemitism?

    Here lies the key; this is part of the spiritual struggle one must first grasp, commend with and win. Struggles over holy land is not meant to be easily achieved. Incitement happens, but will one stand firm on principles? This is key:
    “O you who believe, be persistently standing firm for Allah, witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just! That is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is Well-acquainted with what you do.” (5:8)

    Shaykh Hamza Yusuf summarizes it well:
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=B-IZNB-sQvs

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Talha
  316. @Colin Wright

    There you go. At least al Aqsa inarguably exists. There’s no solid evidence for your first temple at all. Indeed, given all the digging without result, it’s a pretty safe bet it’s an invention.

    Huh? Tell that to the Muslims isn’t that why they built the mosque? To replace what was the temple? If there was no Temple there the whole story would just fall apart. Islam claimed vociferously until recently that the Temples of Judaism exist.

    I think Roman history and Flavius Joseph give a pretty accurate description of the destruction of the second Temple. Never mind Jesus’s visits there.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70_CE)

    As far as archeology goes, it is hard to achieve because there is a mosque there. Duh you cannot dig at Al Aqsa. The temples existed.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  317. @Colin Wright

    Are the Palestinians a religion? A people? Before 1967 they never existed.
    I am an idiot? lol

    Egypt being Arab. Have you ever talked or met a real Egyptian? I think not.

    To an outsider, Egypt is in fact an Arab country. The reality on the ground, though, is slightly different. Many Egyptians prefer to call themselves Egyptians and some shun the Arab label completely. … So Egyptians are not genetically Arabs, but they may be so culturally and linguistically.

  318. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…I am an idiot? lol…

    Well, now that you mention it…

    It’s a little weird that you profess to find the fact amusing, though.

  319. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Huh? Tell that to the Muslims isn’t that why they built the mosque? To replace what was the temple? If there was no Temple there the whole story would just fall apart. Islam claimed vociferously until recently that the Temples of Judaism exist…’

    Oh God help us. I have yet to see anyone turn idiocy into an asset.

    Do you do this naturally, Francine, or did you work on it?

    Hint: two temples. No one denies the ‘second.’ That is an actual, archeologically and historically verifiable, fact.

  320. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Egypt being Arab. Have you ever talked or met a real Egyptian? I think not…’

    Funny stuff. I have. But why would you find that so improbable?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  321. @Talha

    And misdirected. I was talking about the UAE

    I’m not sure how much more obvious you could have made it.

    I realize shamata (schadenfreude) at another’s indescribable inanity isn’t necessarily the best form of entertainment, but I might be able to make an exception in Fran’s case.

    was-salaam.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  322. @Talha

    Pretty good…but on reflection, I think it’s a little unfair to have you representing Islam and Fran representing Judaism.

    I think that — pending Judaism coming up with a better champion — we really should let that one rest.

    …assuming we’re looking for a fair contest, of course. To tell the truth, as far as I’m concerned, you can go git ’em right now. It’s fun to watch — and educational.

    • Replies: @Talha
  323. @Colin Wright

    Because you are one of the most ignorant MF’s on this site. Astonishing the name calling you come up with for someone so ignorant on religion and the peoples that actually live in the ME. Anyone with the least bit of humility or historical perspective would acknowledge that their are two very credible sides to the story (stories) over there. Not you, everyone is an idiot or what ever abusive language you can think of. You don’t really move much in the world, or know any international writers, historians, or leaders that are political involved in the field that maybe give you some sort of textural concept of the complexities. No you are happy with all black and all white. I mean aren’t you at some point embarrassed? I know people who are actually writing and are involved in the situation in real time, not just historically. Some of them pretty smart. So I know smart, and I know dumb, you are just plain fucking dumb. Like I said clueless.

    Yeah you would know Colin I am sure you would know whether Solomon’s temple existed. Gosh thanks for the clarity.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  324. @AnonStarter

    I realize shamata (schadenfreude) at another’s indescribable inanity isn’t necessarily the best form of entertainment, but I might be able to make an exception in Fran’s case.

    That’s for sure, all you and Talha do is comment on Colins comments to me, and cheer him on, all the while pretending that I am on your ignore list, taking indirect swipes at me with stupid lines about Schadenfreude to Talha.

    What a bunch of babies, and cowards with Colin as your front man. So disappointing. Let me also double LOL on the fact that Talha does not read my posts.

    Ms. Taubman seems to have fallen off my ignore list for some reason through no effort of my own. The only thing I can think of is that I recently got a new cell phone from work and I guess the list is cached in your browser session (which I would have naturally lost). Makes sense since otherwise you have to expend server memory or database space to keep track – neither of which is worth the pay off.

    Yeah right I fell off his ignore list no fault of his.

    Neither one of you have the guts to speak with any substance on of the current issues between the changes going on between muslims and Jews like normal people. You need to duck and run, like a little game. Yeah go ahead talk amongst yourselves. I have given you straight on facts about what is going on over there.

    The schadenfreude is all mine if there was anything to be really schadenfreude about.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  325. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Because you are one of the most ignorant MF’s on this site. Astonishing the name calling you come up with…’

    Fran, you’re really amazing. You just called me a son of a bitch. Now you’re calling me a mother fucker. And you are astonished at my name calling?

    Your lack of self-awareness is mind boggling. It really is.

  326. @Fran Taubman

    ‘That’s for sure, all you and Talha do is comment on Colins comments to me, and cheer him on, all the while pretending that I am on your ignore list…’

    I think Fran is upset.

    The irony is that I still find her morally preferable to Aaron. At least Fran ‘argues’ (if you choose to call it that) in good faith, which can’t be said for the eternally (if not particularly effectively) deceitful Aaron.

    Fran’s the real deal. She presents her lies frankly, if that makes any sense.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  327. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    I used to have fairly civil and even friendly conversations with a couple of Jewish guys here, but they no longer come around anymore. “Sam Shama” and “Greasy William”…I actually had some very interesting conversations with them about Judaism – its’ funny, they came from different perspectives so sometimes a question to one of them would kick off a fight between them (not my intention). It’s too bad, I liked learning stuff from them. Both of them were Zionists, but even Zionists – like everyone else – come in a spectrum.

    One thing I appreciated about both of them was that they wouldn’t say ignorant or false crap about Islam to get a one-up on the debate on the Israeli situation. I respected that a lot – I hope they are both doing well.

    There was an elderly Egyptian in SoCal – one of the Hathout brothers that were pillars of the community since Muslims came to the US in that area in the 70s. He had fought in the (I believe) Six Day War and had captured an Israeli soldier. Dr. Hathout (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Hathout) was a pious man so he treated the Israeli well*, they actually became friends over the course of time and he mentioned that they still used to call and check in on each other may years later.

    If one must fight, one must fight, but there is a level of dignity to these matters.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    *Note: I could be wrong, but I don’t know if any other religion mandates fair treatment of war captives in its religious texts. You may well end up executing them, but while they are in your control, you are supposed to treat them with dignity, feed them fairly, etc. One of the verse that mentions this is:
    “And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive. (Saying), ‘We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.’” (78:8-9)

    Imam Ibn Kathir (ra) reports regarding this verse that; Ibn Abbas (ra) – the cousin and Companion of the Prophet (pbuh – said, “At that time (at the revelation of the verse) their (meaning the Muslims’) captives were the pagans.” Proof for this is that on the day of Badr the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) commanded his Companions (ra) to treat the captives respectfully. The Companions would give them preference over themselves when eating their meals.

    • Replies: @Talha
  328. Talha says:
    @Talha

    *commend with* should have been “contend with”…

    Good old autofill.

  329. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Sorry, I checked on the details (since it had been years and I had forgotten them) and it was the 1948 War and since Dr. Hathout was a physician, he was serving as a front line medic for the Red Crescent. This included treating captured enemy fighters. The details are outlined here in this article for those interested:

    As a new round of wounded arrived, Dr. Hathout was told seven of them were injured Haganah fighters, including a woman. Now, standing at the entrance of his hospital, he faced an angry mob demanding to take revenge on their captured enemies.

    The young Egyptian physician was facing the biggest challenge of his life. Only months before, he had received his medical degree from Cairo University. He made the decision in December 1947 to launch his career by serving in the Red Crescent in neighboring Palestine.

    Now he was standing on the steps of his hospital, shouting at a crowd hell-bent on murder. “You will kill these prisoners over my dead body,” he yelled. “I am a Muslim and an Arab. The Qur’an says the wounded are in protection for their wounds. The captives are in protection for their captivity.”

    Once the mob reluctantly disbanded, Dr. Hathout spoke in English to his terrified prisoners. “You now are with us Arabs and Muslims. I will treat you the same as my Arab patients so long as you don’t try to escape. You will receive treatment according to the gravity of your wounds.”

    https://www.wrmea.org/008-may-june/dr.-hassan-hathout-a-survivor-of-the-1948-nakba-and-the-siege-of-ramle.html

    • Thanks: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  330. @Colin Wright

    The irony is that I still find her morally preferable to Aaron. At least Fran ‘argues’ (if you choose to call it that) in good faith, which can’t be said for the eternally (if not particularly effectively) deceitful Aaron.

    That’s a good point.

    I mean, Fran might make regularly embarrassing mistakes such as forgetting that I explicitly informed her she’s not in my ignore filter or demonstrating just how ignorant she is about the Arab street, but at least her potato gun shoots straight.

    But Aaron?

    There isn’t a fact he won’t spin six ways from Friday if it doesn’t make Israel look good.

  331. @Talha

    ‘…Once the mob reluctantly disbanded, Dr. Hathout spoke in English to his terrified prisoners. “You now are with us Arabs and Muslims. I will treat you the same as my Arab patients so long as you don’t try to escape. You will receive treatment according to the gravity of your wounds.”’

    What’s actually most interesting about this is that to the modern Western non-Muslim reader, the story seems implausible. I’m reminded of that episode in our invasion of Iraq where a female American soldier was captured. Near hysteria erupted.

    She was finally found, perfectly intact, in a hospital receiving treatment for her wounds. Nobody had raped or tortured her.

    …our expectations notwithstanding.

    It didn’t used to be this way. As I’ve discussed before, traditionally, Americans had a wildly romanticized but reasonably positive image of Arabs and Muslims: Rudolf Valentino and the ‘Sheik of the Burning Sands,’ Lawrence of Arabia, Grass: a People’s Struggle for Life all come to mind. About the most recent example I can think of would be the seventies film, The Wind and the Lion.

    Now it’s different. Somehow, we’ve been taught to think of Arabs and Muslims as fantastically cruel, degenerate beasts. You’d never let your daughter go out with one. You wouldn’t let your son go out with one.

    That evolution would be interesting to trace.

    • Agree: Talha
  332. @AnonStarter

    ‘But Aaron?

    There isn’t a fact he won’t spin six ways from Friday if it doesn’t make Israel look good.’

    He’s also persistently and exasperatingly deceitful in his attempts to misrepresent himself, you, and the conversation. There’s a constant attempt at manipulation. There’s something really vile about it.

    Fran is just this bigoted, ignorant, not terribly intelligent partisan of all things Jewish. Arguing with her isn’t exactly edifying — but at least you can see where she’s coming from. What you see is what you get.

    Aaron is always attempting to deceive you in some way. It never works, but it’s implicitly insulting. The implication is that he thinks you’re stupid enough to fall for it.

  333. anon[193] • Disclaimer says:

    We are a diverse community here. We have genocidal Zionazis, obsessive white supremacists, tightass National Review dupes, copsuckers, gun eunuchs, delusional Red Scare news zombies, Dem party cultists, and even a few people who are not brainwashed idiots at all.

    But I think we can all join together as one in hope and joy to watch Chris Christie drown in viscous mucus and celebrate the soft plop when his dick turns black and falls off, and laff and laff, and know that it has all been worth it, secure in the faith that Chris will surely go to his eternal reward and sit with his folds jiggling on the PU-244 strand of closed beach on the sea of boiling pus in nether hell.

  334. Isn’t Pelosi gentile?

    Regardless: BIG Chutzpah points!

    ‘Pelosi: Trump Going Out Without A Mask Was A “Brazen Invitation” To Get Infected; “I’m Praying For Him”

  335. @V. K. Ovelund

    This message regards the site’s MORE feature.

    Readers uninterested in the MORE tag’s effects can disregard.

    This is the message’s third paragraph. An extra blank line unfortunately appears above it. I do not know how to avoid the extra blank line.

    This is the message’s fourth paragraph. A single blank line should separate it from the third paragraph. If I had tried to eliminate the extra blank line above the third paragraph, then the extra line would (for some reason, at least on my browser) have appeared between third and fourth.

    How to kill the extra blank line altogether is unclear to me.

    This message has been marked up as follows:

    Paragraph 1.
    Blank line.
    Paragraph 2. (Note that no blank line immediately follows paragraph 2, but that the MORE tag intercedes.)
    <!–more–>
    Blank line.
    Paragraph 3.
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    As far as I can tell, this markup achieves best results.

  336. @V. K. Ovelund

    The last message showed the markup but failed actually to demonstrate the usage.

    Here is the demonstration.

    [MORE]

    Paragraph 3.

    Paragraph 4.

    Paragraph 5.

  337. @AnonStarter

    I mean, Fran might make regularly embarrassing mistakes such as forgetting that I explicitly informed her she’s not in my ignore filter or demonstrating just how ignorant she is about the Arab street, but at least her potato gun shoots straight.

    There is no Arab Street. The Arab Street is a propaganda tool used to manipulate people outside (and inside) the ME. The Arab Street is a dedicated group of Islamist who control money and power. Their main concern is fomenting hatred of the West and Israel, their income flow depends on it. The deliberately make it sound like a vast array of the population feel the same way. It is a lie.

    To give an example. When Trump moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, there was fear and trepidation concerning the reaction by the Arab Street. Well you can see how that worked.

    The Arab population are people, wanting prosperity and peace for their families, who are not paid huge sums of money like the PA dedicated to keeping tensions high so they can keep getting paid. The PA does not speak for the Palestinian people. They have billions of dollars not shared by the public., and the people are not stupid, they know they are being robbed. It is a corrupt system. The Israeli and the the Arabs have mingling for years in secret. That is the Arab Street. This is not like the Muslim brotherhood assassinating Sadat over Egypt’s peace deal with Israel. Times have changed. The Arab population is done with Jihad and Jew hatred. I know a business man recently involved in the Bahrain seminars. He was the one who told me that you can get Kosher food in the hotels. Huge I mean huge infrastructures are planned for the Palestinians and the entire ME, including shared security and technology. If you don’t see what lies ahead you are blind. Hezbollah and Hamas will be gone in 5 years.

    In the end the oil is going and it s all about money.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  338. There is no Arab Street.

    Keep telling yourself that, Fran. Lull yourself into that comfortable complacency with the Potemkin facade that so many before you once enjoyed in their blissful sojourn to the outer reaches of oblivion.

    I haven’t the slightest problem with it.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  339. Meanwhile, back in the real world …

    Bipartisan bill would give Israel a veto on Middle East arms sales

    Existing law already guarantees Israel a qualitative military edge in the Middle East, but Congress — not Israel — is the arbiter of whether an arms sale meets QME standards.

    But, of course, it’s “anti-Semitic” to even suggest that Jews control American government.

    Good times in the land of golems.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  340. @AnonStarter

    Like I always say Jews are not the only ones that are pro Jewish or Pro Israel. Lots of non Jews are pro Jewish, and feel comfortable with them in power positions. Israel is a valuable ally. Why don’t you feel comfortable with Jews in power? Jews work hard and are smart. I think the Jews are far better then the gun toting WN.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  341. @AnonStarter

    Potemkin facade that so many before you once enjoyed in their blissful sojourn to the outer reaches of oblivion.

    Oblivion is really extreme no. Are you sure? Maybe a blissful trip to upstate NY would suffice. Oblivion seems so sci fy. You sound so dramatic AS. Like the world is coming to an end with the Jews and the Muslims warming up.

  342. @Fran Taubman

    ‘There is no Arab Street. The Arab Street is a propaganda tool used to manipulate people outside (and inside) the ME…’

    Noted Arabologist Francine speaks.

    You know, you could just post the links to the sites you get all this from rather than regurgitating it.

    Offense, but your seal of approval doesn’t exactly reenforce whatever credibility the original claims might have.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
    , @Talha
  343. @Colin Wright

    I do not follow links. I talk to people that live in the ME. All over the ME. Iran, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon.
    Funny how prepared and informed I am. Go back to your plumbing. Clean some pipes, that is about your speed. The fact that you think you can kick me around is hilarious. You are a legend in your own lunch box Colin.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  344. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Noted Arabologist

    (Sigh) “There is no Arab street…”

    “There is no such thing as a Palestinian…”

    “There were no Arabs when we got here…”

    It gets boring after a while.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  345. @Fran Taubman

    Why don’t you feel comfortable with Jews in power?

    Why not head down to the streets of Cairo, Baghdad, or Gaza and ask some non-Jewish Arabs that question?

    Oh, that’s right … according to you, they don’t exist.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  346. @Talha

    …’It gets boring after a while.

    Peace.’

    There’s a curious consistency about it, though.

    The basic principle seems to be to do away with the injustice by denying the reality of the victim.

    Logically, you have to admit it’s sound. In fact, there’s a certain strange parallel with Holocaust Denial.

    In a minor key, of course — but for a much more substantial result. Nazi Germany’s not coming back. Israel really is there.

    • Replies: @Talha
  347. @Fran Taubman

    ‘I do not follow links. I talk to people that live in the ME. All over the ME. Iran, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon.’

    Sure, you do, Fran. You took it for granted that I’d never spoken to an actual Egyptian.

    That was telling.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  348. @AnonStarter

    I am asking you? I know what they would say. It is a religious battle between Judaism and Islam. Arab Muslims do not want Jews to control Palestine or Al Quds because they were Muslim ruled and once in Muslim rule they can never be changed it is considered part of the Islamic waqf.

    That is only part of it. Most of the reasons are irrational. Jews are the fallen of Allah.
    I am asking you why don’t you want Jews in power.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  349. @Colin Wright

    Sure, you do, Fran.

    She’s mentioned a Jewish Egyptian, and an Iranian carpet merchant.

    C’mon, Colin. You’ve got to admit that those are some pretty impressive associates.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  350. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    there’s a certain strange parallel with Holocaust Denial.

    Very interesting…I never thought about that before.

    Speaking of – I just watched Jojo Rabbit, a thoroughly enjoyable and hilarious film; especially that scene-stealing, chubby kid named Yorki.

    Peace.

  351. @AnonStarter

    I know a Christian American who is a journalist in Lebanon, a child of friends. Not sure why you are pooh poohing my carted merchant. His fabrication facilities are in Iran and Turkey. His family lives in Iran, parents, brothers. All very involved in life in Iran and Turkey. I think that is a solid contact to hear what life is like over there. He told me a story about a Jewish Iranian and Muslim Iranian spearing before a judge. Both were vendors on the street and the Muslim was abusive to the Jew. The judge was scolding to the Muslim that he could not treat anyone like that and fined the Muslim.
    It was a nice story. Maybe you are inoculated from good stories after listening to Colin who is like listening to no body. I really do not know anyone that thinks like Colin.
    My Iranian friend says that peace with the Jews and Iran must happen.

    My Jewish Egyptian friend wrote books and spent time in Egypt. The Egyptian government and people from her neighborhoods were very warm to her. She got the feeling that Egypt wanted their Jews to return. I know others not important to list here.

  352. A little temple history. Below is a video of the Tabernacle that Moses built, preceding the Temple, but with the similar rituals and style. The Arc of the covenant was stored inside the holy of holies also similar to the temple. The Tabernacle was designed to be mobile. The Levite tribe were responsible for moving and construction of the Tabernacle. This took place around 3500 years ago.

    Below the video is a wiki page on Tel Arad in Israel. A Temple built around the same time as Solomon’s temple with a similar blueprint and layout. Check the date out 2560 B.C. Wow.

    Excavations at the site have unearthed an extensive Bronze Age Canaanite settlement which was in place until approximately 2650 BCE. The site was then apparently deserted for over 1500 years.

    The site was only resettled by Israelites from the 11th century BCE onwards[2], initially as an unwalled area defined as an official or sacred domain was established on the upper hill, and then later as a garrison-town or citadel.
    The citadel and sanctuary were constructed at the time associated in the biblical narrative with King David and Solomon. Artifacts found within the sanctuary of the citadel mostly reflect offerings of oil, wine, wheat, etc. brought there by numerous people throughout the reign of the kings of Judah until the kingdom’s fall to the Babylonians. However, during the Persian, Maccabean, Roman, and Early Muslim periods, locals continued to bring these items to the sacred precinct of the upper hill. Markers of these ancient Israelite rituals remain to this day, with broken pottery littering the entire site.
    Under the Judaean kings, the citadel was periodically refortified, remodelled and rebuilt, until being ultimately destroyed between 597-577 BCE, whilst Jerusalem was under siege by Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II.

    The temple at Arad was uncovered by archaeologist Yohanan Aharoni in 1962 who spent the rest of his life considering its mysteries, dying there in the mid-1970s.

    In the holy of holies of this temple two incense altars and a standing stone were found, probably having been dedicated to Yahweh. Unidentified dark material preserved on their upper surfaces was submitted for organic residue analysis and traces of cannabinoids, boswellic acid and norursatriene (which derives from frankincense) were detected.[4] An inscription was found on the site by Aharoni mentioning a “House of Yahweh”, which William G. Dever suggests may have referred to the temple at Arad or the temple at Jerusalem.[5][6][7]

    • Thanks: SeekerofthePresence
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  353. @Fran Taubman

    Arab Muslims do not want Jews to control Palestine or Al Quds because they were Muslim ruled and once in Muslim rule they can never be changed it is considered part of the Islamic waqf.

    That’s fair enough to mention, but in truth, most of them don’t think in such terms, understanding that the bifurcation of the world into dar al-Islam and dar al-harb has become something of a false dichotomy.

    No, they simply know that Israel owns America, having led it into a wide-scale war that has been detrimental both to Muslims and Americans. As such, it can’t be trusted in matters of peace and stability.

    It isn’t that I “don’t want Jews in power.” It’s that the Jews who hold power aren’t particularly good ones.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  354. ‘…His fabrication facilities are in Iran and Turkey…’

    But do you know where your fabrication facilities are?

    …or is it a more a matter of you feeling that you have a facility for fabrication?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  355. @AnonStarter

    Name me good decent current Muslim leader. MBS? Who?

    No, they simply know that Israel owns America, having led it into a wide-scale war that has been detrimental both to Muslims and Americans. As such, it can’t be trusted in matters of peace and stability.

    Wrong Christians and Jews own America. And Islam should take responsible for their own mess, having nothing to do with the US and Jews. Seriously you cannot seriously blame the calamity of 20th century Islam on America and the Jews. Most tribal rulers and kings have been the worst leaders ever.
    They care nothing for their populations.

  356. @Colin Wright

    Oh FFS Colin. He weaves carpets in Turkey, India and Iran per sanction requirements. The wools are all Persian. It is a family dynasty. It has tremendous history. Are you familiar with Persian rugs? It is avast field and history of its own. Nasiri Carpets look them up. They do not weave the rugs in Brooklyn. One of my Nasiri Carpets it is a flat weave from Afghanistan.

    IMG_2206

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  357. @Fran Taubman

    Name me good decent current Muslim leader. MBS? Who?

    Good, decent Muslim leaders are people who shun the throne, knowing the perilous compromises that come with it. You’re more likely not to know who they are, as they also shun renown as well. The better ones are men of learning; the best of them apply what they know. We have quite a few of them, local shuyukh and ‘ulama who are pillars of their community.

    There’s a similar perspective among your Orthodox, a good number of whom find zionism to be even more odious than many Gentiles. They, too, have earned the love and reverence of their disciples, who are more interested in proximity to God than they are in possession of worldly authority. They find individuals such as Netanyahu, Gantz, Lieberman, Barak, Sharon, et al to be nothing more than charlatans, much as devoted Muslims disdain pretenders among them, and conscientious Americans find their own “representatives” to be anything but.

    Though he’s passed to the next life and enjoyed a healthy measure of undesired fame, Bediuzzaman Said Nursi’s Risale-i Nur is worth a look if you want to understand what genuine Islamic administration is all about.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  358. @Fran Taubman

    And here is a video of the Starship Enterprise.

  359. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Oh FFS Colin. He weaves carpets in Turkey, India and Iran…’

    Look up ‘fabricate,’ Fran.

  360. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Wrong Christians and Jews own America…’

    How much of America do Jews own, Fran?

  361. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Seriously you cannot seriously blame the calamity of 20th century Islam on America and the Jews.’

    You can blame a great deal of it on ‘America and the Jews.’ These actors have a great deal to do with the current condition of Egypt, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Iran.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  362. @Colin Wright

    Fran: They care nothing for their populations.

    This single sentence completely supports what I said earlier: that the autocratic rulers of the Arab world cutting deals with Israel aren’t representative of the Arab street.

    Didn’t take very long, did it?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  363. @AnonStarter

    Welcome to the world of La La land via a fantasy ridden Muslim.

    Good, decent Muslim leaders are people who shun the throne, knowing the perilous compromises that come with it. You’re more likely not to know who they are, as they also shun renown as well. The better ones are men of learning; the best of them apply what they know. We have quite a few of them, local shuyukh and ‘ulama who are pillars of their community.

    So a good decent Islamic leader is a phantom that no one knows about, because that leader is so holy he shuns visibility, and power knowing that it leads to corruption? Oh wow. This is not medieval times, a leader as to be known and held accountable, and defend the people he leads, like Mohammed.

    There’s a similar perspective among your Orthodox, a good number of whom find zionism to be even more odious than many Gentile

    What exactly is wrong with Zionism? A home for the Jewish people in their ancestral land? Besides the standard propaganda about the Palestinians. Does there exist anywhere liturgy and biblical claims that your religion spawned from that has similar claims to the land. Irrefutable claims from Allah.

    They find individuals such as Netanyahu, Gantz, Lieberman, Barak, Sharon, et al to be nothing more than charlatans, much as devoted Muslims disdain pretenders among them, and conscientious Americans find their own “representatives” to be anything but.

    Why are these people Charlatans or odious? They are warriors defending the Jewish homeland, similar to Mohammed defending Arabia to protect Muslims. So you do not like Zionism, Israel or Zionist. That is your prerogative. But people who are Zionist and want Israel to survive revere these men. These different opinions over land ownership is what wars are about, but that does not make them Charlatans. They are solid leaders.

    Though he’s passed to the next life and enjoyed a healthy measure of undesired fame, Bediuzzaman Said Nursi’s Risale-i Nur is worth a look if you want to understand what genuine Islamic administration is all about.

    A genuine Islamic administration from Medieval times was admirable. It viewed Islam as a political system not just a religion. A system dedicated to protecting and caring for all the people, wealthy and poor. It was a top down socialist system designed to distribute money evenly. It did not like usury or prophets gained by private investment like capitalism. Most wealth was granted by the leaders to men working under them and protecting them as leaders. Capitalism is a system from the bottom up and is based on making money from investment. In order to create wealth and business from investment you have to borrow the capitol and pay interest. It is a wealth creating system that has brought more people to prosperity then any other system in the world. It is a secular system and has many many pitfalls. But has taken care of far more people then socialism.

    Any top down system like a caliphate is subject to corrupt leaders and unlike a democracy there are no checks and balances to remove kings and dictators that are detrimental to their populations, like the Mullahs in Iran. Democracy and Capitalism do not mix well with Islamic theocracies based on religious rule, like in Mohammed’s time. This system has become outdated and those who cling to it by hatred of the West will not win. Judaism has no top leadership. Religion is based on the individual. That is why Islamist and Jews do not get along, we need separate countries.

    New Islamic leaders will emerge that will embrace democratic principles without becoming secular. You can still run a theocracy with democratic ideology. I am not saying that Islam should give up Islamic principals of an Islamic theocracy I am saying that it needs to be blended with capitalism that allows people the freedom to invest and become entrepreneurs with the help of their leaders.
    Most enlightened people over there see this change that must take place. They are the ones that are embracing the Jews. BTW I also believe Israel should be a Jewish theocracy not a democracy.

    Hezbollah currently has hundreds of thousands of rockets buried in civilian neighborhoods, similar to the way that the explosives were stored in the Lebanese port. The leaders are religious Islamist with strong Islamic principals. Is that good leadership? Storing dangerous explosives amongst the most vulnerable?

    Islam has to move beyond its childish fantasy of control and domination based on religion, and see the failures it has created, without the help of the West. Islam has it is currently constituted in the ME is not serving the population well.

  364. @AnonStarter

    ‘…Didn’t take very long, did it?’

    Fran really should take longer to think these things through.

    …or maybe not. This is okay too.

    • LOL: AnonStarter
  365. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Hezbollah currently has hundreds of thousands of rockets buried in civilian neighborhoods, similar to the way that the explosives were stored in the Lebanese port…’

    That would explain why it’s been fourteen years since Israel tried invading Lebanon.

    You have to know how to communicate with the Zionists. Hezbollah is very good at communicating with the Zionists.

    • Agree: Wielgus
  366. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…A genuine Islamic administration from Medieval times was admirable. It viewed Islam as a political system not just a religion. A system dedicated to protecting and caring for all the people, wealthy and poor. It was a top down socialist system designed to distribute money evenly…’

    Why am I reasonably sure you have no idea what you’re talking about?

    What site was the text lifted from, Fran?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  367. @Colin Wright

    My writing Colin. Mine alone.

    This written by an Arab Muslim or as Talha would say a Dork from the UAE.

    https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/.premium-to-the-palestinians-and-my-fellow-arabs-your-hatred-for-israel-achieves-nothing-1.9209799

    [MORE]


    There is a valid argument that says the Israelis have been intransigent. But the same can also be said for the Palestinians who still insist on the right of return for refugees in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and elsewhere. Never going to happen, and they know that full well.

    They would be better off asking the host nations to tear down the camps and allow the refugees the right to work and own their own home. Refugees pass on false hopes to their children along with the keys to the former homes of their fathers or grandfathers and keep a visceral hatred for Israelis alive down the generations. I believe this is unfair for both generations. 

    There are two million Palestinians, the descendants of Palestinians who stayed in 1948, who have Israeli nationality. Most take pride in their Arab heritage whether Muslims or Christians, yet are content to call themselves Arab Israelis.

    Hamas and other militant groups must turn their backs on violence that rebounds onto the poor residents of Gaza and is the main reason for the crippling blockade. Arabs should not support a Hamas that is 100 percent Palestinian yet cosies up to Iran.

    The beauty of the Abraham Accords is that it greatly benefits all signatories in terms of trade, commerce, tourism, technology and security. Moreover, it cements a united front against Iran, a common enemy working towards manufacturing nuclear weapons with which to hold its neighbors hostage.

    Lebanon is undergoing arguably the most challenging periods in living memory. Peace with Israel would be a major game changer, and I suspect that the Lebanese people would approve if it were not for the obstacles strewing the path. The Lebanese need the courage to express what is in their hearts and decide to live in peace.

    Hezbollah’s domination of Lebanon is reaching its end. Hassan Nasrallah and his slavish following are becoming so despised that they are attempting to disappear into the mists. And, to remain within the political arena, his allies are bound to distance themselves.

    To ensure Hezbollah never again rears its ugly head, the people should demand that its leadership and terror commanders should be tried for instigating criminal wars as well as its stranglehold over Lebanon that has delivered nothing but ruin, misery and unprecedented poverty.

  368. @Fran Taubman

    So a good decent Islamic leader is a phantom that no one knows about, because that leader is so holy he shuns visibility, and power knowing that it leads to corruption?

    No, he’s usually well known both to those he leads and to many he doesn’t. Those unfamiliar with the Muslim world, however, aren’t likely to know one. The Prophet is reported to have said:

    Do not desire a seat of authority, for if you are granted this position as a result of seeking it, you will be abandoned, yet if you are granted it without seeking it, you will be helped.

    The desire for control over others is strong in most people and more often corruptive. Understanding himself, a good leader recognizes his own desire and fears the potential implications of exercising authority, thereby disdaining it. Ironically, this very same individual is best suited to lead, being more capable of approaching the matter of administration in a strictly pragmatic manner; as such, Islam mandates the establishment of his leadership.

    Until the final chapter of the Rashidun Caliphate, this was the prevailing practice. Thereafter, political leadership and religious authority gradually developed into complementary, albeit separate institutions. Originally, the former subordinated itself to the latter, yet in time, the division between them grew and the relationship was reversed, the religious authorities now subject to the dictate of the amir.

    With periodic, usually localized exceptions, this has been the prevailing dynamic of the Muslim world ever since.

    Why are these people Charlatans or odious?

    The conflict in Palestine boils down to the manner in which the land is administrated. It isn’t that Muslims must be in control, but rather, that political control prove equitable to its subject population. Were Muslims in control, their mandate would be to secure such equity for their subjects.

    Leaders who affirm faith with God yet act in stark contrast to the demands of that faith are, by definition, charlatans. This includes most regional leaders, be they nominally Jewish or Muslim. Were God-fearing men in charge, we would not witness such disdain for the rights of the downtrodden and disfranchised as we do.

    A few of your comments reminded me of a couple of books which lay to rest the fallacy that Islam is inherently incompatible with either democracy or capitalism. Fortunately, I was able to locate two sites where they’re available in their entirely online:

    Charlemagne, Muhammad, and the Arab Roots of Capitalism, Gene W. Heck, Walter de Gruyter, Berlin, 2006.

    The Islamic Roots of Democratic Pluralism, Abdulaziz Sachedina, Oxford University Press, 2001.

    Enjoy.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
    , @AaronB
  369. @AnonStarter

    The conflict in Palestine boils down to the manner in which the land is administrated. It isn’t that Muslims must be in control, but rather, that political control prove equitable to its subject population. Were Muslims in control, their mandate would be to secure such equity for their subjects.

    The situation is not one where the Jews desire to control Muslims or create an inequitable situation, as always there are two sides. The Muslim side insisting that it is their duty to resist Jewish control, domination, occupation etc. The Jewish side saying resistance is a false dichotomy, that it is all just mindless violence and lacks any conceivable middle ground. That the Muslims want the Jews vanquished and have constantly presented an all or nothing scenario. Forcing Jews to set boundaries, walls and blockades to keep their population safe. It is an old tale of two stories, but in either case I Charlatan is an incorrect choice of word to discuss Jewish leaders, whose people do not think they are Charlatans. Like I said I consider them warriors who if did not act strongly against Jihadist violence, would have created another failed state of insanity that is so prevalent overthrew.
    One side uses violence as and means to an end, the other as an end to a means.

    Any side of the story you take the situation is going to change. It has to change. It is destiny that will make it change and it will be the biggest deal the world will ever see. Allah / Hashem is willing this to happen. To much insanity over nothing, basically keeping two very important spiritual forces in combat rather then unity. As I said earlier, peace and prosperity will come to Islam when it recognizes and accepts the holiness of Judaism and the holy land it spawned from.

    Thanks for the books. I look forward to reading them.

  370. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    It isn’t that Muslims must be in control, but rather, that political control prove equitable to its subject population. Were Muslims in control, their mandate would be to secure such equity for their subjects.

    So why not divide the land? Each side will likely disagree on what’s fair.

    Today there are no Muslim rulers who can be relied on to be fair. When Jordan controlled Jerusalem they denied Jews access to holy sites.

    Wouldn’t a genuinely honest Muslim religious position be to forget about Palestine until you get your house in order? Yet you are insisting that now that you should be the ones in control.

    Moreover, dividing the land so the two communities can be independent – that seems to be the epitome of fairness. Saying you need to be in control to administer the land fairly is just another way of saying you need to control Jews.

    • Troll: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  371. @AaronB

    ‘So why not divide the land? Each side will likely disagree on what’s fair.’

    It’s been divided — repeatedly. Each time you agree, take your share — and then take some more.

    What’s the point? Can you explain why anyone should enter into an agreement with Zionists?

    I mean, let’s take a trip down memory lane here…Versailles. Should there be a provision in the Palestinian Mandate for a ‘Jewish National Home’?

    Well, what would that mean? You’re not implying there should be an actual independent Jewish state, are you? After all, other people happen to be living there…

    Oh no. Perish the thought. We wouldn’t want anything like that. God forbid. A newspaper, some schools, an agricultural cooperative…

    Oh, alright then. We’ll write in a ‘Jewish National Home.’

    And we can go forward from there. To 1948, to 1967, to Camp David, to Oslo, to now.

    Why should anyone be foolish enough to attempt to negotiate with you at this point? You never keep your word. Just how dumb do you think everyone else is?

    But we can negotiate even now. It’s okay — we can talk. Let’s talk about the luggage allowance for the evacuation flights from Ben Gurion to JFK.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @AnonStarter
  372. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    You forgot something.

    Each time we agree – the Palestinians don’t agree, and go to war. We win and get more. Half the time we offer to give it all back for peace, like in 67.

    Maybe its time for the Palestinians to agree and not reject a fair division of the land?

    The first offer was in 1937. Jews would get independence on 7% of the land. The Jews agreed. The Arabs did not.

    If 7% was not agreeable to them, then clearly a division of the land is not what they want.

    AS tells us that only Muslims can be trusted to fairly administer the land – even though Jordan denied Jews access to holy sites, while Israel lets Muslims keep control of the temple mount. But whatever. This is just another way of saying Muslims must rule Jews.

    “Why should anyone be foolish enough to attempt to negotiate with you at this point? You never keep your word. Just how dumb do you think everyone else is?”

    Please give me an example where Israel went back on its word when a peace treaty was signed. There are no disputes with the borders with Egypt and Jordan.

    Since the Palestinians consistently reject any division of the land, there has never been an opportunity for Israel to violate any agreement with them.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  373. I returned to Uri Ben-Eliezer’s War Over Peace last night, reviewing the history of the Yishuv and its numerous political parties prior to 1948. One take away was that parties who favored a bi-national solution and sought to live amicably alongside Arabs never stood a chance. Their influence was completely subsumed by more militant factions and it’s been that way ever since.

    I offer this because one of Aaron’s many fabrications is the notion that the predominant influences of pre-state zionism were far more complex and intricate than we’re led to believe.

    Of course, that’s just scratching the surface.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  374. @Colin Wright

    I’m reminded of what you wrote earlier concerning Aaron:

    He’s also persistently and exasperatingly deceitful in his attempts to misrepresent himself, you, and the conversation.

    To wit, Aaron quotes me as follows …

    It isn’t that Muslims must be in control, but rather, that political control prove equitable to its subject population. Were Muslims in control, their mandate would be to secure such equity for their subjects.

    … then writes …

    … [Y]ou are insisting that now that you should be the ones in control.

    Hmm.

    Could it be that Aaron is less interested in dialogue than he is in provocation?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Colin Wright
  375. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    Ok, lets dialogue.

    Why does anyone have to be control of all of it. Why can’t we divide the land with each community being independent. Why did Arabs reject dividing the land 5 times, even when Jews only got 7%.

    What reason is there to think that the Muslim world as it is today would administer the land fairly. When Muslims actually did administer the land, they denied Jews access to holy sites and persecuted them. The Muslim world in general today does not seem like a peaceful place where justice prevails.

    Would not a sincerely pious Muslim focus his attention on fixing his own culture first, before claiming Muslims should replace Jews as administrators of the land because they would be more just?

    Talha repeatedly says that in Islam, it’s better to be oppressed than to oppress. Yet as it is constituted today, any imaginable Muslim victory over Israel would result in oppression. Maybe a hypothetical perfect Islam wouldn’t, but that’s not today’s reality.

    Imagine, AS, of instead of all this effort against Israel, you used that energy to try and fix the violence and injustice in the Muslim world.

  376. @AnonStarter

    I returned to Uri Ben-Eliezer’s War Over Peace last night, reviewing the history of the Yishuv and its numerous political parties prior to 1948. One take away was that parties who favored a bi-national solution and sought to live amicably alongside Arabs never stood a chance. Their influence was completely subsumed by more militant factions and it’s been that way ever since.

    Were the Arabs ever in favor of a bi-national solution, or seek to live amicably alongside the Jews?
    I never got that impression. The Mufti of Jerusalem was very pro Nazi. I do not see anyone wanting to share.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @AnonStarter
  377. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    Why does anyone have to be control of all of it. Why can’t we divide the land with each community%. being independent. Why did Arabs reject dividing the land 5 times, even when Jews only got 7%.

    Jew only got(?) 7%. FOUR /4 times more than Jew had legit.

    Palestinians had every right to reject an infinity of times.
    Jew butt hurt. Tough.
    By the way, where do you live?
    We wish to divide your land, house.

    Your first sentence question about control very generous of you.
    If you haven’t been circumcized and sucked by a rabbi,
    sure they are gathering to fight to see who gets to thank you.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  378. @AaronB

    Bullshit. We’ve been through all this before. I’m not chasing you around the mulberry bush again.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  379. @AnonStarter

    ‘Could it be that Aaron is less interested in dialogue than he is in provocation?’

    I think it’s a matter of attempting to defend the indefensible.

    If I want to keep insisting two and two make five, I’m going to have to come up with some sleight of hand somehow.

    Get ten or twelve tricks, and then run through the deck. Once we’ve got to the end, start over at the top of the deck. Continue until everyone else is exhausted and wanders off.

    Works every time, eh, Aaron?

  380. @AaronB

    ‘Ok, lets dialogue…’

    That should be it right there.

    In my book, using ‘dialogue’ as a verb should be a shooting offense. However…

    ‘…Imagine, AS, of instead of all this effort against Israel, you used that energy to try and fix the violence and injustice in the Muslim world.

    That one’s just too good to pass up. Why not kill two birds with one stone?

    Getting rid of Israel would address much of the violence and injustice in the Muslim world. Specifically, Egypt, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Iran would all have had much happier pasts and/or presents.

    Win-win, huh, Aaron? Let’s go for it!

  381. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    So Israel has not abided by treaties it signed regarding borders? I thought the Jordanian and Egyptian borders were peaceful.

    You said Israel does not abide by agreements, so there is no point negotiating. All I am asking is for an example of when Israel and its enemies agreed to a land border, and Israel violated it.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  382. @AaronB

    Ok, lets dialogue.

    That’s not dialogue, that’s just regurgitating the same old contentions as yesterday, all of which have been addressed and debunked multiple times by more than one poster.

    You want an argument, I can see that. Go on and argue, Aaron.

    I’ll wait until you’re ready for dialogue, whenever that might be.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  383. AaronB says:
    @anon

    I’m fine with you claiming Israel doesn’t even deserve 7% of the land.

    But that does show that the Palestinians were not willing to compromise even a little. You and AS keep on shifting back and forth. On the one hand the Palestinians were willing to compromise and the Jews weren’t, in the next breath you start fiercely justifying why the Arabs shouldn’t even have agreed to let the Jews be independent on 7% if the land.

    Which is it? If you come up with arguments that the Arabs should not have compromised one iota, you can’t in the next sentence say it was the Arabs who were willing to compromise and not the Jews.

    Got to choose one strategy, my friend.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Colin Wright
  384. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Were the Arabs ever in favor of a bi-national solution, or seek to live amicably alongside the Jews?
    I never got that impression. The Mufti of Jerusalem was very pro Nazi. I do not see anyone wanting to share.’

    How much of Poland should the Poles have agreed to let Hitler have in 1939, Fran?

  385. @AaronB

    ‘…All I am asking is for an example of when Israel and its enemies agreed to a land border, and Israel violated it.’

    When did Richard Ramirez sign a pre-nuptial agreement with one of his victims and then violate it, Aaron?

    I’ve never violated an agreement I signed with a steak, come to think of it.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  386. @Fran Taubman

    Were the Arabs ever in favor of a bi-national solution, or seek to live amicably alongside the Jews?

    Well, after Balfour, it’s certainly understandable why Palestinians felt cheated. They had all observed how, after the war, Britain had formally recognized the sovereignty of so many Arab nation-states, yet hypocritically denied them the right to self-determination. This, of course, was realized as a denial of Palestinians’ political rights.

    Early in the Mandate Period, the British proposed parity in government between Palestinians and Jews. Originally, the Palestinian leadership didn’t want it, yet eventually agreed. Unfortunately, the Yishuv’s response was categorical rejection.

    Fast forward to 1967, following the war. Gershom Goremberg writes:

    In the famous resolution that ended the Khartoum Summit, Arab leaders rejected formal recognition of Israel and peace treaties with it. But as Israeli scholar Yoram Meital showed in a study published a dozen years ago, the Summit restricted Arab post-war aims to regaining the territory lost in June 1967, rather than eliminating Israel, and accepted indirect diplomacy as a means to achieve this.

    Khartoum didn’t meet the basic Israeli demand for recognition and formal peace. But it did mark the start of a shift, especially in Egypt’s position, from rejectionism toward realism.

    Then you have the Taba Talks during Oslo II. Israel and the PA were quite close to striking a peace deal when — according to Shlomo Ben-Ami, who was directly involved in negotiations — Israeli public opinion made any agreement impossible.

    Even Khaled Meshaal has tempered his position in recent years. Israel construes lack of formal recognition as an insurmountable obstacle, but that’s not how good diplomacy works. Were Israel to play its cards right, Hamas’s denial could be relegated to mere rhetoric.

    But for over 1,000 years before the twentieth century, Arabs lived much more amicably among Jews. In fact, it’s safe to say that without Arab Muslims, Jews wouldn’t be where they are today.

    The Mufti of Jerusalem was very pro Nazi.

    More than 12,000 Palestinians served in the Allied Forces during WWII. Hajj al-Amin Husseini did not garner a fraction of that to serve the Axis.

  387. @AnonStarter

    Correction: Hajj Amin al-Husseini.

  388. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    Its ok if you are not yet ready for a discussion with me. These are tense issues for you, and I understand that.

    I’ll be around.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  389. @AnonStarter

    ‘…Early in the Mandate Period, the British proposed parity in government between Palestinians and Jews. Originally, the Palestinian leadership didn’t want it, yet eventually agreed. Unfortunately, the Yishuv’s response was categorical rejection…’

    Do tell, and I’m intrigued — always happy to have another arrow in the quiver.

    However, your link doesn’t seem to work.

  390. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    I don’t know what you are talking about.

    You said there was no point in negotiating borders with Israel, because Israel doesn’t abide by its agreements. But I haven’t heard of Israel not abiding by its borders agreement with Jordan and Egypt.

  391. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    Don’t confuse Palestinians with anon327;
    I won’t confuse you with impartiality, balance, honesty.

  392. @AaronB

    ‘Its ok if you are not yet ready for a discussion with me. These are tense issues for you, and I understand that…’

    This could work, Aaron. These patently hypocritical passive-aggressive remarks are infuriating, and I am sixty two.

    Keep it up, and you could trigger a heart attack. I doubt it — but it could happen. Keep pitching.

    Is there some way, some verbal formula, that could suffice to express the depth of contempt I have for you — I mean you personally?

    Don’t try to blame this on Jews or anything. It’s all about you. If we do share any views on anything, I’d just as soon not know. It’d be like discovering that smell is the shit stuck to the bottom of one’s own shoe.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  393. @AaronB

    ‘Got to choose one strategy, my friend.’

    Why? Israel is in the wrong in so many ways.

    It’s an embarrassment of riches. Why stick to just one category of malfeasance?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  394. However, your link doesn’t seem to work.

    No problem. I’ll reference my own copy of Ilan Pappe’s History of Modern Palestine. One important amendment to what I wrote: The principle of parity was itself mandated, not proposed, by the British.

    From page 86:

    The Mandate’s structure was the facade of an independent state that was in fact a colony, with one exception in the case of Palestine: local government had to be based on the principle of parity. At first, between 1923 and 1928, the Palestinians rejected parity. The Zionist leaders, using an efficient intelligence service, reciprocated by consenting to parity, although it was a far cry from their dream of a Jewish state in Palestine. Their consent was given as long as they were confident that the Palestinians would reject it. The Zionist position changed in 1928, when the pragmatic Palestinian leaders agreed to the principle of parity in a rare moment in which clannish and religious differences were overcome for the sake of consensus. The Palestinian leaders feared that without parity the Zionists would gain control of the political system. The unexpected Palestinian agreement threw the Zionist leaders into temporary confusion. When they recovered, they sent a refusal to the British, but at the same time offered an alternative solution: the partitioning of Palestine into two political units.

    British capitulation to the Yishuv eventually led to the Peel Commission’s 1936 proposal of dispossessing > 200,000 Palestinians to clear space for a “Jewish National Home.”

  395. @Colin Wright

    Keep it up, and you could trigger a heart attack.

    Meh.

    It’s fairly obvious his game is mostly instigation. If you sidestep that, sometimes he can make a good foil, but it does get tiresome to address the same old hackneyed hasbara over and over again.

    I wouldn’t get too worked up about his routine, though. It isn’t worth the price of your health.

    BTW, we had a great tomato, hot pepper, and green bean crop this year. The brandywine tomatoes were fantastic. Wish I could get the cucumber plants to last longer, though.

    How did your anuenue lettuce do?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  396. @AnonStarter

    Let me refresh the conversation and steer away from dead arguments. Keep focus on the future not the past. Peace between Arabs and Jews is on the way.

    Reread this article written by a Sunni Arab.
    https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/.premium-to-the-palestinians-and-my-fellow-arabs-your-hatred-for-israel-achieves-nothing-1.9209799

    There is a valid argument that says the Israelis have been intransigent. But the same can also be said for the Palestinians who still insist on the right of return for refugees in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and elsewhere. Never going to happen, and they know that full well.
    They would be better off asking the host nations to tear down the camps and allow the refugees the right to work and own their own home. Refugees pass on false hopes to their children along with the keys to the former homes of their fathers or grandfathers and keep a visceral hatred for Israelis alive down the generations. I believe this is unfair for both generations.

    There are two million Palestinians, the descendants of Palestinians who stayed in 1948, who have Israeli nationality. Most take pride in their Arab heritage whether Muslims or Christians, yet are content to call themselves Arab Israelis.

    Hamas and other militant groups must turn their backs on violence that rebounds onto the poor residents of Gaza and is the main reason for the crippling blockade. Arabs should not support a Hamas that is 100 percent Palestinian yet cosies up to Iran.

    The beauty of the Abraham Accords is that it greatly benefits all signatories in terms of trade, commerce, tourism, technology and security. Moreover, it cements a united front against Iran, a common enemy working towards manufacturing nuclear weapons with which to hold its neighbors hostage.

    Lebanon is undergoing arguably the most challenging periods in living memory. Peace with Israel would be a major game changer, and I suspect that the Lebanese people would approve if it were not for the obstacles strewing the path. The Lebanese need the courage to express what is in their hearts and decide to live in peace.

    Hezbollah’s domination of Lebanon is reaching its end. Hassan Nasrallah and his slavish following are becoming so despised that they are attempting to disappear into the mists. And, to remain within the political arena, his allies are bound to distance themselves.

    To ensure Hezbollah never again rears its ugly head, the people should demand that its leadership and terror commanders should be tried for instigating criminal wars as well as its stranglehold over Lebanon that has delivered nothing but ruin, misery and unprecedented poverty.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @AnonStarter
  397. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Because they contradict each other.

    You want to pike up the ways Israel is wrong that are consistent with each other.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  398. @AnonStarter

    ‘BTW, we had a great tomato, hot pepper, and green bean crop this year. The brandywine tomatoes were fantastic. Wish I could get the cucumber plants to last longer, though.

    ‘How did your anuenue lettuce do?

    The lettuce did well — until we had a day or two over a hundred. It was actually morbidly comic to see the effect — like Round Up, but quicker.

    But it’s back. Lots of other good stuff, too — the tomatoes have pretty much gone feral. One comic bit, though, are the green beans. I was counting the other day. I’ve planted green beans of four different varieties in six places. We’ve actually eaten green beans twice.

    Cucumbers I still have — and have had, all summer. Maybe try a different variety? I grow Ministro — which do well. I started those inside at the beginning of March — and I believe I was getting cucumbers in May. As I say, the plant’s still producing.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @AnonStarter
  399. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…To ensure Hezbollah never again rears its ugly head, the people should demand…’

    Fran, do you know any legal way I can give money to Hezbollah? I’m a little worried about accountability, too.

  400. @AaronB

    ‘Because they contradict each other.

    ‘You want to pike up the ways Israel is wrong that are consistent with each other.

    Why should I concern myself with that? Do I fret about the inconsistencies in National Socialism?

  401. @Colin Wright

    We’ve actually eaten green beans twice.

    Lol

    Re: Cucumbers … We got a fairly good yield off of one plant, but for whatever reason, the leaves seemed to begin browning far too soon. Our local farmer who sold it to us says it’s normal, but I’m not entirely sure about that. I’ll have to look for the ministro next year.

    You’re really fortunate to have a long growing season in your neck of the woods. I’ve heard some nice things about Southern Oregon in that regard.

    Oh, and about that raccoon … Turns out he wasn’t the culprit behind the bird feeding station after all. The whole thing remains a mystery to this day: four Droll Yankee bird feeders protected by very effective sheet metal squirrel guards were completely jarred loose from their respective hooks set at ~ seven+ feet.

    Game cameras haven’t captured anything since.

  402. @Colin Wright

    More about the raccoon …

    We observed him as he ambled about casually under the feeders, sifting loose seed for grub and nibbling away at whatever he could find. We were certain that we’d catch him in an attempt to scale the station and surpass the squirrel guards, but other than one or two curious glances upward, he never came close in the breadth of fifteen minutes’ scrounging. This went on every evening for about three weeks.

    We heard some confrontational, bestial hissing one evening and speculated that he may have had a run-in with one of our local groundhogs, but this too remains inconclusive.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  403. @AnonStarter

    ‘…We heard some confrontational, bestial hissing one evening and speculated that he may have had a run-in with one of our local groundhogs, but this too remains inconclusive.’

    Maybe another raccoon.

    When those guys get going with each other they are loud. We once had a campground to ourselves…or thought we did, until the raccoons descended and started going through the garbage cans.

    Even that would have been alright, except there were apparently more raccoons than cans. Raccoons don’t seem to believe in sharing. Their fighting literally kept us up all night.

  404. @AnonStarter

    Not to keep beating a dead horse, as we have exhausted this subject. I do however need to point out one erroneous idea that keeps popping up.

    Well, after Balfour, it’s certainly understandable why Palestinians felt cheated. They had all observed how, after the war, Britain had formally recognized the sovereignty of so many Arab nation-states, yet hypocritically denied them the right to self-determination. This, of course, was realized as a denial of Palestinians’ political rights.

    There was never a consideration by the Arab leadership of a separate Arab identity called Palestinians until 1967. Palestinian sovereignty and ethnicity was always a Pan Arab idea. A united Arab people. Not a separate Palestinian identity. Even during Nasser’s time, it was a Pan Arab desire for unity. Despite all the mess of the colonial breakup and mandates created by the fall of Turkey and the Ottoman Empire, the Arabs always thought of themselves as one group in Arabia. Arabia under one independent Caliphate, free from Turkey and Europe. I understand Israel represented an imposition on that unity as they saw it as a Western construct, spoiling their unity of Muslim rule. All the countries in the ME have nothing to do with the way the populations operate. The boundaries are tribal with tribal leaders and emirates. The tribe Saudi Arabia is from Iraq. You know the drill. That is why I always point out that Jordan is the most colonial construct detrimental to sovereignty for the Arabs living in Palestine, yet because it is Muslim it is accepted. But it is the natural homeland if you wanted to separate Palestine from Arabia. The Hashemites are also from Saudi Arabia.

    Most of the Arabs living in Palestine are not original from there. You can tell by their last names where their tribes originated from, like Egypt, Syria etc. The most indigenous were the Bedouin Arabs, which were mostly nomadic.

    Palestinian identity was formulated after the 1967 war. Surely if they wanted to have a separate identity they would have declared a Palestinian state before 1967 when Jordan illegally held it. All of these land claims are confusing, but the most pernicious is the idea of an individual Palestinian identity. There is none. It is a lie. There is no separate Palestinian liturgy, kingdom, President or archeology to identify Palestinians as a distinct people, like the Babylonians or the Assyrians. None.

    There failure to move forward on statehood is a result of this lie of identity. They are just Arabs. Jews have liturgy, archeology, and the entire old testament to attest to their identity, which they kept intact even in exile for thousands of years. Jews are a distinct group of people and always have been. That is why they have prospered in their ancestral homeland. They fit and belong there. There claim is legitimate. Other then land ownership of individual Arabs who lived in Palestine prior to it becoming Israel there is nothing to tie them to each other.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Colin Wright
    , @Art
  405. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Dead horse, dead argument, dead BS.

    You/it/they are persistent in beating it.

    A new wall has been erected.
    Throw more BS. See what sticks.
    For a few seconds.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
  406. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Most of the Arabs living in Palestine are not original from there. You can tell by their last names where their tribes originated from, like Egypt, Syria etc….

    This is simply untrue, Fran. I’m not going to go back over it with you.

  407. Art says:
    @Fran Taubman

    The Fanatical Taubman

    The Egyptians know how you Jews have celebrated the Passover killing of Egyptian children for thousands of years. What a vision of solidarity – your springtime celebratory joy – of Jew angles and Egyptian dead children!

    p.s. They all know CC is YOU!

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  408. Art says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Other then land ownership of individual Arabs who lived in Palestine prior to it becoming Israel there is nothing to tie them to each other.

    The Fanatical Taubman

    That is so wrong – the solidarity of the Palestinians is amazing. God bless them. They have the world on their side. The world knows who the real terrorists are – you Zionist Jews.

    It is time to rid the world of Israeli Jew nukes.

  409. @Art

    The Egyptians know how you Jews have celebrated the Passover killing of Egyptian children for thousands of years. What a vision of solidarity – your springtime celebratory joy – of Jew angles and Egyptian dead children!

    You do knot that Jesus’s last meal was at a Passover Seder? So Jesus celebrated it. The eucharist is based on the the wine and matzoh from the seder.

    They all know CC is YOU!

    What does CC mean?

  410. Art says:

    They all know CC is YOU!

    What does CC mean?

    Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, (born November 19, 1954, Cairo, Egypt), Egyptian military officer who became Egypt’s de facto leader in July 2013, after the country’s military removed Pres. Mohammed Morsi from power following mass protests against his rule.

    He is Israel’s evil dictator in Egypt. To guard Israel’s western front, he will murder his fellow Egyptians.

    The US government pays him in silver. Such a deal – ha Jew!

    p.s. No question, but that Jesus was religious figure and a Jew. Europeans added “Christ” and emphasized what completely separated Jesus from Judaism, thus making Christianity.

    p.s. But make no mistake – Jesus and his idealism is our guy, our example of how to live. (Your irrational hate for him, defines you.)

  411. Focusing on the present and not the past …

    Israeli Settlers Assault Palestinians, Burn 50 Olive Trees

    Palestinian official, Ghassan Daghlas, who monitors Israel’s settlement activity in the region, said that a number of Israeli settlers attacked Palestinian civilians who were harvesting olives south of Nablus, and assaulted them, resulting in three injuries among the Palestinian harvesters.

    Daghlas added that this is the third settler attack on Palestinian citizens on their own lands during the past 24 hours in the Nablus governorate.

    In related news, Israeli colonialist settlers, Wednesday, set fire to a Palestinian-owned olive grove, in Deir Ballut town, west of Salfit in the central West Bank, a municipal source reported.

    Deir Ballut town mayor, Yahya Mustafa, told Palestinian WAFA News Agency that a group of Israeli settlers set fire to 50 olive trees, identifying the landlords as Yousef, Mustafa and Sbeih Abdul-Ilah.

    Unprovoked attacks such as this occur with regularity. You can check IMEMC weekly for the news.

  412. Jewish Settlers Throw Stones at Palestinian Car, Injure Toddler

    A one-year-old Palestinian toddler was injured last night when Jewish settlers threw stones at a car he was in as it drove on a West Bank road, according to the Palestinian news agency WAFA.

    Eyewitnesses told WAFA that settlers from the illegal Daniel settlement – built on expropriated Palestinian land – threw stones at Palestinian cars driving on a highway between Bethlehem and Hebron (Al-Khalil) in the southern West Bank.

    The toddler, Mahmoud Iyad Banat, was injured in the eye from glass after stones hit and broke a window of a car he was in, said the witnesses.

  413. AaronB says:

    It is unfortunate that some people cannot get over their sense of grievance. They dwell obsessively on every perceived wrong that was done them, without realizing that the other side has an equally long list of grievance, and that there is always context.

    This is not the path of maturity and wisdom.

    Mature, wise people recognize that each side to a conflict has its list of grievances, and one must put this aside and work out practical solutions moving forward.

    To dwell on ones grievances and reject all practical compromise is not just a spiritual sickness – it is a psychological handicap that ends up in tragedy for those who think this way.

    In the end, people who cannot shake this narcissistic self pitying disease end up destroying themselves in a spectacular fashion. It is unfortunate, but sometimes a culture is too far gone to recover its health, and there is no hope for it.

    I think what we are seeing is the healthy half of the Muslim world detaching from the diseased, stuck half and moving towards life, while the diseased half moves inexorably towards death, rigidity, and no compromise.

    When extremes capture a culture, abd it loses the power if flexibility and adaptability, it us done.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Art
  414. @AaronB

    ‘It is unfortunate that some people cannot get over their sense of grievance. They dwell obsessively on every perceived wrong that was done them, without realizing that the other side has an equally long list of grievance, and that there is always context…’

    Sounds like you’re looking in a mirror, Aaron. That does describe the usual Jewish outlook, doesn’t it?

  415. To dwell on ones grievances and reject all practical compromise is not just a spiritual sickness – it is a psychological handicap that ends up in tragedy for those who think this way.

    There is no psychology in Islam, only the Quran and Mohammed. Muslims can never give up if they have been wronged. It is every Muslims duty to protect Muslims that cannot protect themselves. Martyrdom is preferable to defeat.

    Judaism and Christianity never had a prophet that worked in the messenger format of Mohammed. In the bronze age god went to war and the Jews followed. Moses only obeyed god directly with one on one conversations. Mohammed had evolving dreams and an angel Gabriel. Jesus was all about individual salvation not a national unity of defense.

    Time and context have not changed most Islamic thinking, although there are some religious scholars that show a different interpretation and side. Talha has shown some very advanced Imams. In Islam, negotiations can be used as tactic to deceive and pretend. Islam can be very frustrating to deal with to achieve rational conclusions. For whatever reason, their ideas and negotiators seem crazy. Like the Palestinians are the original Cannonites. Or the Mullahs in Iran insisting that the Jews must pack up and leave and that Al Quds must become all Muslim and return to Palestine.

    The world has sort of caught on to this and has walked away. The Muslims who realize the futility of Islamic grievances and martyrdom, have decided that the only way to survive is to understand that the Jews are a holy people, and Israel is their holy land. Accepting the Jews is not negotiating it requires living in an alternative Islamic universe where other religions can be as holy as Islam. If you do not accept that the alternative there is no negotiation but elimination of the Jews and Israel.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Colin Wright
  416. AaronB says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Muslims can never give up if they have been wronged. It

    It is a very serious problem for them. But everyone has been wronged. An adult moves on. Israel has excellent relations with Germany.

    Time and context have not changed most Islamic thinking, although there are some religious scholars that show a different interpretation and side.

    This is another reason they find it so hard to get along with others today. They are only 1,300 years old. Imagine if medieval Christians were alive today!

    They are proud of not being flexible. But only a corpse is rigid. What is living is supple.

    In Islam, negotiations can be used as tactic to deceive and pretend

    You see this on this site. Talha presents a false front. AS is insincere. It is about victory for them, not principle.

    Accepting the Jews is not negotiating it requires living in an alternative Islamic universe where other religions can be as holy as Islam. If you do not accept that the alternative there is no negotiation but elimination of the Jews and Israel.

    At the moment, many Muslims cannot make that leap. I regularly hear my orthodox Jewish friends speak well of Islam. They are generally more positive than I am. But Muslims do not yet have the self confidence and assurance to compliment others. That takes strength, and Islam is weak. All the posturing, the false bravado – that is weakness.

    Give it time. The Muslim world is splitting.

  417. ‘…Accepting the Jews is not negotiating it requires living in an alternative Islamic universe where other religions can be as holy as Islam…

    The irony here is that of the three Abrahamic religions Islam is the only one that mandates even a qualified tolerance of the other two — yet Fran would actually imply the reverse.

    Do we really need to revisit Islam’s record of toleration compared to that of Judaism, Fran?

    Start with the Kitos War and the Mamilla Pool, then work your way up to how many of the Muslims and Christians of Palestine got to stay there after 1948, and how many are now exiles. Remember, Fran: confession is good for the soul.

  418. @AaronB

    ‘…They are proud of not being flexible. But only a corpse is rigid. What is living is supple…’

    You would appear to still be gazing into that mirror, Aaron.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AaronB
  419. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…The Muslims who realize the futility of Islamic grievances and martyrdom, have decided that the only way to survive is to understand that the Jews are a holy people, and Israel is their holy land…’

    The alternative to accepting your holiness is death?

    I thought anti-BDS laws were harsh, but…well, my…

  420. @AaronB

    ‘…This is another reason they find it so hard to get along with others today. They are only 1,300 years old. Imagine if medieval Christians were alive today!'[

    Or modern Jews. Imagine if they were alive today!

    They’d probably seize this piece of land, and drive out the inhabitants, and attack literally all their neighbors, and steal the technology to build atom bombs, and set up global crime rings, and…

    But nahh. That’s crazy talk. Only an anti-semite would think modern Jews could do such things. Not those sweet, intelligent, pacific, law-abiding Jews.

    Of course not.

  421. US Muslim council drops Emgage over Zionist ties

    Emgage is a zionist trojan horse gifted to the Muslim American community, fronted by the kind of Uncle Tamases Aaron and Fran would just love to schmooze with over a bottle of Manischewitz.

    Good sign.

  422. @Fran Taubman

    Let me refresh the conversation and steer away from dead arguments. Keep focus on the future not the past.

    Not a bad idea, but it seems your boy has already derailed you.

    What do you make of this post?

    https://www.unz.com/announcement/open-thread-3/#comment-4208985

  423. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Honestly, Muslims would be suicidal (as far as religion is concerned) to follow the path of other religions or other religious groups. (Post)Modernity has chewed them up and spit them out. Following the general path of much of the Jewish community would be especially fraught with danger to one’s religious identity:
    “New Poll Shows Atheism on Rise, With Jews Found to Be Least Religious”
    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/jews-least-observant-int-l-poll-finds-1.5287579

    My personal take is what Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad (himself a convert) once stated:
    “The merit of the decentered model is to be seen in the fact that in spite of the talk of ‘the crisis of Islam’ or ‘what went wrong with Islam’ many mosques are still crowded until overflowing. Despite the decrepitude of the structures, the collapse of traditional Islamic education in many places, people still want Islam. I therefore don’t accept there is a crisis of Islam. Actually, I think Islam is the great religious success story of modernity. Ultimately you judge a religion and the validity of its truth claims on the basis of whether it is still appealing to people or not. And people keep converting to Islam.”
    http://halalmonk.com/abdal-hakim-murad-authority-within-islam

    Judging religion by metrics that have little to do with religion is not a sound practice, but to each his own.

    Peace.

  424. Emgage is a zionist trojan horse gifted to the Muslim American community,

    I never heard of Emage. What a desperado. When the going gets tough the tough drop out of Emage. A Trojan horse none the less, that never saw Troy.

    Can not wait for Colin’s next post Emage, followed by the birds and the bees, the history of bad Jews. Colin’s own history of retardation and greatness. Flowers and archeological artifacts he himself had sifted thru and collated. Some are in his refrigerator. Some in his attic. His acute knowledge and ability to revisit verbatim historical events that happened thousands of years ago. And his piece de resistance. Colin’s definitive claim and unearthly ability to truly envision that Al Aqua is in fact the third temple cause Talha told him. So boring and uninformed about religions and history Colin can bring the greatest of Jihadist to tears. Colin wins the UR inanity award.

    Sorry for the riff I am a bit depressed about watching the 0 and 4 Giants, followed by the 0 and 4 Jets. Reading a daily post from Colin is too much to bare. So I will sign off for today.

    Fuck off Colin you are obnoxious and boring.

    • LOL: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  425. @Talha

    ‘…Judging religion by metrics that have little to do with religion is not a sound practice, but to each his own.’

    I’m inclined to agree. I’ll also add that the vital strands of Christianity and Judaism these days are respectively, Evangelicals and the ultra-Orthodox. Compared to those, it’s hard to seriously argue that Islam is backwards, irrational, rigid, etc.

    People have this mildly weird tendency to take Christians and — more absurdly still — Jews as these wonderfully progressive, modern, enlightened religious communities in comparison to Muslims. I think that falls apart if you open your eyes and look at the actual practitioners of the various faiths — not those who just take the label as a kind of supra-ethnic identity, but those who actually go to Houses of God and pray and stuff.

    • Replies: @Talha
  426. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Fuck off Colin you are obnoxious and boring.’

    That’s kind of hurtful — but it was a good read up to that point!

    You keep pitching, Fran.

  427. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    It does not seem that way to me. Our record of being flexible and willing to compromise seems clear to me.

    And to me, one of the healthy things about Judaism is that it is flexible. It makes mistakes, but is able to correct them. It can become dry and about laws, but then will move towards emotion and the imagination.

    In fact, Judaism sees itself as an evolving co-creation between God and man. The saying in the Talmud that horrifies Muslims so much, that now that God gave us the Torah, the Rabbis interpretation is more authoritative than a voice from heaven, testifies to a very different sensibility, to a more intimate relationship tp God, and to a living faith. It is living because it grows, organically. It is not static. Man is made in the image of God, and is not a mere servant, but participates in God’s unfolding plan.

    To the Muslim, God’s word is static and final, mankind is infinitely distant from God, and there is no creative cooperation between the two. There are some types of people for whom this is infinitely comforting and blissful. It is a different type of civilization. I understahd that it has its attractions. Judaism can sonetimes be too dynamic, and one needs a good and refreshing rest. Judaism can sometimes place too great a burden on one, and being a servant can be easier. But being a mere servant is also highly respected in judaism, so there is a sort of Islam within Judaism.

    But while I enjoy analyzing Islam from without, it isn’t my job to tell it what to become. As I said, Israel doesn’t really need peace from the Muslim world. The Muslims will come to us when they are ready, and we will be happy to grant them peace. I recognize the value of static civilizations, and there is no reason every civilization must be dynamic. It merely means as the price of its statism and rigidity, Islam will have to give up the old dream of political power and domination, and accept a subordinate role.

  428. @Talha

    As-salaamu ‘alaikum!

    Despite the decrepitude of the structures, the collapse of traditional Islamic education in many places, people still want Islam.

    Well, there’s the rub.

    If people still want Islam, yet there is a systemic dearth of traditional Islamic education, we’re going to have a lot of Muslims who predicate their life upon something other than a traditional Islamic education.

    Perhaps this isn’t such a crisis, however. It all depends on whether available institutions of Islamic education can rise up to meet that demand.

    was-salaam.

    • Replies: @Talha
  429. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Blockchain Education, A Ticket To Digital Serfdom, Alison McDowell

    https://wrenchinthegears.com/2020/09/22/blockchain-education-a-ticket-to-digital-serfdom/

  430. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    If people still want Islam, yet there is a systemic dearth of traditional Islamic education, we’re going to have a lot of Muslims who predicate their life upon something other than a traditional Islamic education.

    Yup – this is one of the difficulties of our age. Especially people using Google or whatever as a substitute for serious, authentic, traditional Islamic education.

    Perhaps this isn’t such a crisis, however.

    These are the details of course and they need to be hashed out. One of the big problems was the collapse of the centuries-old waqf institutions across the Muslim world beginning with the colonial age and coup de grace delivered by secular nationalists. That is perhaps where we need to put some serious concentration these days (and very few are).

    At the end of the day, plenty of people still want to fall in love with their Creator and befriend and approach Him on His terms…we simply have to let them know the door is still open to the forlorn lovers that have searched but found no respite for their gaping existential wound:
    “Those who believe, and whose hearts find satisfaction in the remembrance of Allah, For without doubt; in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find satisfaction.” (13:28)

    Wa salaam.

    • Thanks: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  431. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    It is quite interesting, I actually know a few Muslim scholars who are fully qualified and credentialed scholars who are also pretty successful in other fields – this is usually in medicine, though I’ve come across a couple in IT as well. One of my very early teachers in Arabic grammar was a young scholar from Illinois, he is very accomplished (mashaAllah) in both realms:
    “Prior to his final semester in medical school, Shaykh Omar traveled to Darul Uloom Zakariyya, South Africa to further pursue Islamic studies. There in South Africa, he completed the final year of the Shari’ah course studying under such luminaries as Shaykh Radha ul-Haq, one of the leading Muftis of South Africa. In 2006, he received degrees in both Shari’ah studies and Medicine.

    From 2007 to 2013, Shaykh Omar completed his medical residency in Anatomic and Clinical Pathology and fellowships in Hematopathology and Molecular Genetic Pathology at Washington University in St. Louis.”

    I think that falls apart if you open your eyes and look at the actual practitioners of the various faiths

    Bingo. I mean, we’ve got plenty of progressive Muslim types too, but they also seem to have some sort of an ethnic-identity interpretation of the faith and you find them running these “progressive orgs” but rarely find these kinds of people running or maintaining your local brick-and-mortar mosques.

    I’ve seen a weird trend around the West (and even among UNZ readers and commenters) where I see people evaluating religion (any religion, not just Islam) by these really bizarre measurements. Like, at what point did religion get evaluated by GDP? Or by whether or not it helps you get to the moon? What is that? That can really only come out of somebody that’s lost track of what religion is about…or perhaps simply see it as an evolutionary construct in utilitarian terms.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  432. @Talha

    I therefore don’t accept there is a crisis of Islam. Actually, I think Islam is the great religious success story of modernity.

    The common mistake lies in perceiving the world’s Muslim collective — or even a mere portion of it — as representative of Islam rather than understanding Islam by its primary source material.

    In that sense, Shaikh Abdul Hakim’s assessment is entirely correct, and as such, it wouldn’t matter if the entire world militated against Islam, it would remain as it always has been — a fact which, as you correctly suggest, is a point in Islam’s favor in that true religion ceases to be as such if it cannot transcend the vicissitudes of time without losing its fundamental character.

    was-salaam.

    • Replies: @Talha
  433. @Talha

    That is perhaps where we need to put some serious concentration these days (and very few are).

    Insha’ALLAH, may this happen.

    One of the better institutions I’ve seen in America is the Dar al-Uloom, which emphasizes that traditional education and remains the only school run by Muslims to actually practice comprehensive gender segregation from student to staff. There’s also a secular component, though it’s tempered in accordance with Islamic sensibilities, so your son (or grandson) won’t be seeing any homosexual advocacy or anti-patriarchy nonsense.

    Yet the waqf can be much more than this, providing a foundation for a wide variety of endeavors beyond direct schooling.

    At the end of the day, plenty of people still want to fall in love with their Creator and befriend and approach Him on His terms…we simply have to let them know the door is still open to the forlorn lovers that have searched but found no respite for their gaping existential wound:
    “Those who believe, and whose hearts find satisfaction in the remembrance of Allah, For without doubt; in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find satisfaction.” (13:28)

    Ameen, akhi. Jazakumullah khayr.

    was-salaam.

  434. @AaronB

    ‘It does not seem that way to me. Our record of being flexible and willing to compromise seems clear to me.

    And to me, one of the healthy things about Judaism is that it is flexible…’

    Your post seems short on specific examples. Perhaps for good reason?

    …but why should a religion be ‘flexible’? Would it be to Judaism’s credit if it just chucked the Torah and the Talmud? If Judaism isn’t ‘flexible’ (and I don’t think it is) that’s actually a reason to accord it a measure of qualified respect.

    It seems to me the whole point of a religion is that it claims some sort of access to absolute and eternal truth. That you can seriously advocate the opposite just demonstrates how terminally full of shit you are.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  435. @AaronB

    ‘… Islam will have to give up the old dream of political power and domination, and accept a subordinate role.’

    …and three guesses as to who will define what it will have to accept a subordinate role to!

    • LOL: Talha
  436. @Talha

    It is quite interesting, I actually know a few Muslim scholars who are fully qualified and credentialed scholars who are also pretty successful in other fields

    I used to frequent a university mosque filled with STEM PhD candidates and the madrasat in which I learned Islam were occupied almost exclusively by exceptionally bright university students.

    In comparing their social and intellectual maturity to that of their average American counterpart, I was typically awe-struck.

    Like, at what point did religion get evaluated by GDP? Or by whether or not it helps you get to the moon? What is that? That can really only come out of somebody that’s lost track of what religion is about…or perhaps simply see it as an evolutionary construct in utilitarian terms.

    It’s usually an indication that the analyst lacks faith. Alternatively, he’s seeking to rationalize a profound loss of integrity in his own faith.

    was-salaam.

  437. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Of course, a religion should have some things that are absolute and unchanging truths, an initial revelation. But after that, Gods truth is something that unfolds over time, and humans cooperate with God in revealing that. For Judaism, the full meaning of the Torah is not even now revealed. There are deeper and deeper layers to be mined, and everyone has a chance to contribute to shaping Judaism, each generation.

    It has a rigid element that acts as a “ballast” – and an element that develops over time. Thus neither extrene is absolute – it is neither static, nor infinitely fluid.

    Perhaps the mistake of Christianity was to be too fluid, and Islam to be too rigid.

    Then of course there is the task of adapting eternal truths to changihg circumstances. The Jews began as a nation on land, then adapted to the Exile by becoming a nation stretched across countries. They went from an agricultural and warrior people to be a scholarly and financial people- the same will to power mutating to adapt to the times.

    I’ve said before that the will to power of Islam remains stuck in the 8th century. It still thinks in terms of armies winning land, when modern Muslim armies cannot win wars. A healthy people would recognize this and channel its will to power into other fields, instead of banging its head against a wall. Imagine if instead of the impossible dream of conquering Israrl, Muslims became great scholars and financiers and industrialists.

    That Islam has lost the instinct to divert its will to power into appropriate channels, like Japan did after WW2, may mean Islam is preparing itself for a subordinate role in the modern world. The rigidity of Islam may be a sign of exhaustion and inability to self renew.

    And that too is OK. If Islam cannot adapt while remaining the same, it will still have a subordinate place in the world order. To be dynamic is not the role for everyone.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  438. @AaronB

    ‘..The Jews began as a nation on land, then adapted to the Exile by becoming a nation stretched across countries…’

    There never was an exile, and Judaism appeared more or less simultaneously in several centers as a primarily urban cult.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  439. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Even if that were true, its significant that Jews have a “myth” of adaptability, while Muslims take pride in being rigid and unchanging.

    And in modern times, Jews did go from being a non physical and unwarlike people to being farmers and warriors in Israel. Zionist literature wanted to create the New Jew. I have not yet heard anything about the New Muslim.

    All this points to very differejt attitudes. In my view, extremes always fail in the long run.

  440. @AaronB

    ‘Even if that were true, its significant that Jews have a “myth” of adaptability, while Muslims take pride in being rigid and unchanging…’

    I don’t think either end of that is true. It may suit the needs of your argument du jour that it be true — but that doesn’t make it so.

    On the one hand, we have Jews taking pride in refusing to yield at all through history — Masada, Jews committing mass suicide rather than undergo even nominal conversion, wearing fur hats in Palestine to this day! Sandy Koufax refuses to pitch on Yom Kippur. Etc. So no, flexibility is not noticeably a hallmark of Jewry.

    On the other hand, a month from now we’ll have you berating Muslims about ‘taquiyyah’ — their supposed willingness to dissimilate. So at that point Muslims will be too flexible.

    In other words, you’re full of it as usual. This dog ain’t gonna hunt either.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AaronB
  441. @AaronB

    ‘And in modern times, Jews did go from being a non physical and unwarlike people to being farmers and warriors in Israel.’

    Not voluntarily they didn’t. The rate of emigration to Palestine among Jews who had an authentic choice about the matter has always been a trickle, not a flood. They’d rather keep practicing law in New York.

    You’ll also note that ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel emphatically don’t farm, and engage in military service only with the greatest reluctance.

    So much for the eagerness of the Jew to adapt.

    We could as easily point to Yemeni operators of convenience stores in California. They’ve gone from being farmers and herdsmen to being petty merchants. Have they demonstrated the adaptability of Muslims?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  442. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    I don’t think either end of that is true.

    The Muslim world has (as always) adapted in details; medicine, cars, even certain political structures, etc. that comes with the territory. No big deal.

    But we seem better at standing our ground on core principles and fundamentals; why should we be so adaptable that we question gender or whether women can be imams? Let others pollute their religions with that nonsense.

    Again, Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad nailed it in one of his talks:
    “And anybody from another ummah who really knows what religion is about, rather than just turning it into another kind of woolly-minded, social service will have nothing but respect for us. They may not agree with us, they may oppose us, but they will respect us because we still see things in proportion; we know what counts. We know that what counts is truth, is Allah (swt). And if the world shouts about us because they don’t like our attitudes to criminal law or to gender or whatever…we are not shouted down, we are never shouted down – we never change because of anybody else protesting.”

    If core principles are constantly in flux or up for debate…well, that’s an indication you either had no sturdy foundation to begin with or were just making it up as you went along.

    who will define what it will have to accept a subordinate role to!

    And who exactly will be doing the fighting to make sure it accepts a subordinated role? My, that’s a whole lot of let’s-you-and-him-fight right there.

    Peace.

  443. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Yes, some things we are willing to compromise on, and others we would rather die. Some elements of our identity are eternal and unchanging, and others are in a process of development that will only be fully revealed in time, and still others are simply temporary adaptations that have only the force of custom behind them (black hats, etc).

    You are thinking in binaries. Try thinking in terms of balance. Both/and rather than either/or.

    You would be surprised at which elements of our identity are not eternal. There is a tradition that the goyim will become the Chosen People after all Hews are fathered up to Heaven, and the same process will start again.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  444. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    World Jewry are about equally divided between Israel and the diaspora.

    The redefinition of the Jew – after millenia – envisioned by Zionism, which nearly all Jews support, is a big change, similar to Japan under Meiji, etc.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  445. Wade says:

    Ron Unz,

    What happened to the author “Larry Romanoff”? This person was putting out articles at least once a week (or more) for quite sometime and now we haven’t had anything from them in almost a month and half.

    Some of his articles were interesting so hopefully he will start writing again.

    Regards

  446. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    it wouldn’t matter if the entire world militated against Islam

    The religion really has two fail-safes:
    1. The Prophet (pbuh) mentioned in a very sound hadith that Allah swt accepted his prayer that his Ummah would not be destroyed root and branch by an external enemy even if they all gathered together for the task.
    2. Allah swt mentions He will simply replace Muslims with others if they don’t abide by the religion He gifted them with, then there are plenty of others who can readily replace them and appreciate it…as it says in Surah Maidah; “O you who believe, if any of you go back on your faith, God will soon replace you with people He loves and who love Him…”

    The train keeps moving, if people want to lose their seats, there are plenty of others available to take them who will be grateful for the ride.

    true religion ceases to be as such if it cannot transcend the vicissitudes of time without losing its fundamental character.

    Exactly. If fundamentals are negotiable, everything is negotiable. Good luck with that.

    One of the better institutions I’ve seen in America is the Dar al-Uloom

    Agreed. They could certainly use some fine tuning, but I’m seeing some very impressive projects within the last decade or so as the younger generation of scholars takes it over and brings a level of professionalism to the enterprise that was lacking before.

    seeking to rationalize a profound loss of integrity in his own faith.

    Macron recently made a big hullabaloo about the “crisis in Islam” and I also thought to myself; who is this man, what spiritual understanding or faith tradition does he even adhere to that he can presume that his opinion has any weight on the matter? The man is making category errors. It’s like my plumber talking about how the world of medicine is in crisis because his insurance bill is higher than he expected or something.

    Peace.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
  447. @AaronB

    ‘Yes, some things we are willing to compromise on, and others we would rather die. Some elements of our identity are eternal and unchanging…’

    Comically, that’s just about what Talha just said about Islam.

    So…umm…did you have a point?

    • Replies: @Talha
  448. @AaronB

    ‘…The redefinition of the Jew – after millenia – envisioned by Zionism, which nearly all Jews support, is a big change, similar to Japan under Meiji, etc.’

    Except that ‘redefinition’ keeps fading, not growing.

    Israel isn’t leading the world in agriculture, it’s leading it in the illegal organ trade.

    The great Jewish Nobel winners are still in the diaspora.

    You’re left with a remarkable talent for killing women and children.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  449. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Actually, Israel does lead the world in agricultural innovation:) So bad example, but I get your point.

    Nobel prizes? Isreal is a tech innovation hub, second only to Silicon Valley, far in advance of countries like Singapore or Hong Kong.

    But ultimately, while I want Israel to be technologically cutting edge, I want it to be a physical, healthy country foremost, and I’m not so interested in it producing too many Nobels.

    • Replies: @Art
  450. anon[327] • Disclaimer says:

    Michael Bloomberg & Bill Gates Documentary: Welcome to our techno-fascist future

    https://wrenchinthegears.com/2020/05/17/the-brothers-grim-bill-and-mikes-pandemic-panopticon/

    https://wrenchinthegears.com/2020/08/16/michael-bloomberg-bill-gates-doku-willkommen-in-unserer-techno-faschistischen-zukunft/

    #467)
    Actually, Israel does lead the world in agricultural innovatio.n:) So bad example, but I get your point”

    Yid leads in:

    The killing of sheep and burning of olive trees and shooting farmers

  451. Art says:
    @AaronB

    In the end, people who cannot shake this narcissistic self pitying disease end up destroying themselves in a spectacular fashion. It is unfortunate, but sometimes a culture is too far gone to recover its health, and there is no hope for it.

    Well – a little trial balloon, early announcement.

    So Jew — are you announcing the total annihilation of the Palestinian people (blaming it on them of course).

    You personally and your Zionist elk are truly beyond redemption.

  452. Art says:
    @AaronB

    I’m not so interested in it producing too many Nobels.

    We are interested in you Jews producing nukes and hiding them!

  453. Ninety Percent of Arabic Social Media Chatter About Israel-Gulf Deals Negative, Report Finds

    Popular hashtags against agreements with UAE and Bahrain reached over 100 million people in less than a month, according to Israel’s Strategic Affairs Ministry

    I’m sure this 90% isn’t really representative of any significant segment of the Arab world, right?

    I mean, it couldn’t be, could it?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Fran Taubman
  454. Fun fact:

    The combined citizenries of Bahrain and the UAE number less than that of the Gaza Strip.

  455. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    Its been said that for some Jews, the only thing left of their faith is the Holocaust and Israel.

    Its clear that for certain Muslims, Islam may mean nothing more than a desire to conquer Israel.

    I’m sometimes hard on Islam, but there are attractive features – you may wish to remind yourself that there is actually more to Islam than just being anti-Israel, or at least there used to be.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  456. bjondo says:

    Not that she matters other than as a deep, swamp rat.

    Some good clips from Hitchens:

    Christopher Hitchens — Speaking Honestly About Hillary Clinton

    • Thanks: Fran Taubman
  457. @AnonStarter

    Popular hashtags against agreements with UAE and Bahrain reached over 100 million people in less than a month, according to Israel’s Strategic Affairs Ministry

    What a surprise. Spoken like a true Muslim. There are still so many in the region who object to this apparent change of direction and wish to return to norms and practices held by past and present generations .

    You can never go back to how things were, it is impossible. The arc of the future demands it. It must change.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @AnonStarter
  458. @AaronB

    ‘I’m sometimes hard on Islam, but there are attractive features – you may wish to remind yourself that there is actually more to Islam than just being anti-Israel, or at least there used to be.’

    How is this an argument? In what way would acquiescing in Zionist injustice, aggression, and ethnic cleansing demonstrate a more complete commitment to Islam?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @AnonStarter
  459. @Fran Taubman

    ‘You can never go back to how things were, it is impossible. The arc of the future demands it. It must change.’

    Lol. Those deals signed in exchange for payment are truly momentous.

    A hundred years from now, they will stand as monuments to a tectonic shift in global politics. They’re going to be the 1934 German-Polish non-aggression treaty of our era. The 1935 British-German Naval Agreement.

    Ask a hundred people. How many can even accurately name the signatories any more? Hey: it was a month ago — or something. I forget…

    We can really see the arc of the future, Fran. Look at how Israel is scaling back settlement expansion, its overtures to Hamas, its initiatives to promote equality and full participation in Israeli society for all Israel’s peoples.

    I mean, just look at you. No more of that Jewish chauvinism anymore. There’s been a real shift here…

    Things have changed. Yessir.

    Did whoever it was get their F-35’s in the end?

  460. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Comically, that’s just about what Talha just said about Islam.

    Now we’re just haggling over the price and the services provided…?

    Peace.

  461. bjondo says:

    You can never go back to how things were…

    Tell to Yid. Israel.

  462. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Its ok for Muslims to be anti Israel, but for AS, that seems to be his main concern and to dominate his self image as a Muslim. He writes about nothing else.

    As a Muslim, it would be nice if he could give us interesting bits of history or theology or philosophy from the Muslim pov, or the Muslim perspective on current events or life, or just anything.

    And if he wants Israel to define him as a a Muslim, that’s also his choice. Im just saying it seems like an impoverished life.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  463. @Colin Wright

    How is this an argument?

    Observing them with a measure of detachment is an edifying experiment: suggest that the land be administrated equitably regardless of who does so and they deny you said any such thing; tell the truth about the Arab Street and either it doesn’t exist or you’re a deficient Muslim for so saying.

    In other words, you can’t win on their terms. If you consider them as the microcosm of Israel, you can see why the so-called “peace process” has failed as miserably as it has.

    • LOL: Fran Taubman
    • Replies: @Art
    , @Colin Wright
  464. @Fran Taubman

    What a surprise. Spoken like a true Muslim.

    Israel’s Strategic Affairs Ministry is Muslim?

    Now that is progress!

  465. Art says:
    @AnonStarter

    Taubman cynically laughs – but the world knows that this is no peace treaty – but a declaration of war on Iran.

    Just like Taubman and Aaron – Israeli words are always calculated to hide the truth of their intent and actions.

    Clearly the Jews are culturally inferior, they are anti-Western thought, where “the truth sets us free”. They are a tribe of chaos making dissemblers and liars. They thrive on disorder and bedlam.

    Their long-held motto – “Through deception we make war.”

    Every comment by Taubman/Aaron is war.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @Colin Wright
  466. @AnonStarter

    ‘…In other words, you can’t win on their terms. If you consider them as the microcosm of Israel, you can see why the so-called “peace process” has failed as miserably as it has.’

    The peace process has failed because Israel doesn’t wish it to succeed.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @MBlanc46
  467. @AaronB

    ‘…Its ok for Muslims to be anti Israel, but for AS, that seems to be his main concern and to dominate his self image as a Muslim. He writes about nothing else…’

    That’s actually not true at all. He frequently gets involved in various intramural questions of Islamic theology and practice with Talha.

    I can tell, because I promptly lose interest. If he was as concerned with Israel as you assert, I’d exchange a lot more posts with him.

    • Replies: @Talha
  468. @Art

    Taubman cynically laughs

    I doubt she’s actually laughing. It’s one of those A123 tactics: when all else fails, hit the “LOL” button then seethe in palpable rage behind the ever so thin veil of your relative privacy.

    Every comment by Taubman/Aaron is war.

    More or less. I mean, you open the door for dialogue and they basically slam it shut each and every time, preferring instead some kind of aggressive attack.

    Sad.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  469. @Art

    ‘Just like Taubman and Aaron – Israeli words are always calculated to hide the truth of their intent and actions.’

    Technically, that’s not quite true. Israeli actions can coincide with the truth — if that happens to be in what they conceive to be Israel’s interest.

    It’s just that any such identity is purely serendipitous. What Israel’s words will always reveal is what they wish you to believe — or at least accept as the basis for discussion. Nothing more, nothing less.

  470. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    I can tell, because I promptly lose interest.

    LOOOOOL!!!

    Peace.

    • LOL: AnonStarter
  471. @Colin Wright

    The peace process has failed because Israel doesn’t wish it to succeed.

    So is it true of our resident zionists’ overtures to peace. Were they actually sincere about it, they would have seized upon the opportunity for discussion I offered upthread.

    I’d say it’s the closest either side in this conflict — as represented here at UR — has come to offering a platform for reconciliation. It doesn’t matter that my view may seem heterodox, the door is open.

    But … to each his own. If they don’t want peace, we’re certainly no worse off than we were beforehand.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  472. @AnonStarter

    Sorry, I am opting out of this discussion. It is not like I have not tried with you sincerely. I am just worn out from Colin’s obnoxiousness and I cannot stand the duck and hide from Talha. I know you idolize him. But I am not on his ignore list. It is impossible to get involved with a thread and ignore one of the main participants. He is playing hide and seek and it is dishonest, and a bit creepy. I have never done one thing to Talha that would cause him to put me on his ignore list. But fine if I am. Then go to another post where he will not be involved in my conversations.

    I know you will defend him. Right now I need a brake from Colin and Talha. Not so much you. Honestly you never bother me. Your writing is amongst the best on UR. You ignore ad hominem attacks. Your writing is clear and concise and worthwhile, and you have a point of view not intended to beat people up over. I cannot believe I am being so mushy to you. I am in a bad mood.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @AnonStarter
  473. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Sorry, I am opting out of this discussion…’

    You keep making these promises, but…

  474. MBlanc46 says:
    @Colin Wright

    Nor does the other side.

    • Thanks: Fran Taubman
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  475. @Fran Taubman

    Sorry, I am opting out of this discussion. It is not like I have not tried with you sincerely.

    What is it you have tried with me sincerely? All I’ve seen thus far is boilerplate zionism: Palestinians are inherently violent, Jews are merely defending themselves. Show me where you’ve gone as far, proposing equitable administration independent of the ruler’s religious or political affiliation.

    I am just worn out from Colin’s obnoxiousness

    Colin is the voice of many people who feel the same way yet lack either the platform or the ability to articulate their sentiment as well as he does. You’re actually frustrated that you can’t respond to him as effectively as you’d like to.

    and I cannot stand the duck and hide from Talha. I know you idolize him.

    Oh? Is it that you idolize Aaron simply because you’re fellow travelers in religion and make that abundantly clear when communicating with each other?

    But I am not on his ignore list. It is impossible to get involved with a thread and ignore one of the main participants. He is playing hide and seek and it is dishonest, and a bit creepy. I have never done one thing to Talha that would cause him to put me on his ignore list. But fine if I am. Then go to another post where he will not be involved in my conversations.

    Sounds as if you want me to believe you here.

    Uhm … Yeah. Not gonna happen.

    I know you will defend him.

    Absolutely.

    Right now I need a brake from Colin and Talha. Not so much you. Honestly you never bother me. Your writing is amongst the best on UR. You ignore ad hominem attacks. Your writing is clear and concise and worthwhile, and you have a point of view not intended to beat people up over. I cannot believe I am being so mushy to you. I am in a bad mood.

    I don’t take kindly to divide-and-conquer antics. You may even be sincere in your compliments, but it wouldn’t make a difference since I’m not here to be praised for what I do. Aaron himself is quite talented in his own way. Now ask yourself if it’ll do him any good when he stands before His Lord, unable to speak on his own behalf.

    • Thanks: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  476. Much of today’s public discourse is governed by deception, fraud, and manipulation. Man wanders blindly in a labyrinth of his own creation. The only way out is the God of Revelation.

    • Agree: AnonStarter, Talha
  477. @AnonStarter

    I’d say it’s the closest either side in this conflict — as represented here at UR — has come to offering a platform for reconciliation.

    Correction: The earliest attempt at this occurred with Talha’s proposal for shared access to the Al Aqsa complex.

    Following this, he was met with intransigent rejection, which ultimately led him to ignore Fran.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Talha
  478. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    Muslims already have access to the Temple Mount. Talha wanted shared control of Jerusalem.

    Which was agreed, if Muslims shared control of Mecca with Jews, which Talha steadfastly refused to entertain.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @Colin Wright
  479. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    Following this, he was met with intransigent rejection, which ultimately led him to ignore Fran.

    A bit of a correction. Intransigent rejection is fine, but there are some personalities I have found to be personally difficult to deal with. Especially when it gets personal or when they have made it a point to be insulting or when they simply lie outright or when the person cannot seem to understand what I am saying (despite multiple attempts at clarity) or intentionally (or unintentionally) continuously misconstrues my statements, etc. In those situations, it is just not worth my time any more (…and as I have made it clear; everyone has a right to their opinion, but not my time. I have to juggle time as a father and a manager of a small IT team.

    It’s OK, there are about 10 folks on my ignore list and there are even entire sections of UNZ that I rarely ever even view and definitely don’t comment on since I don’t find much benefit in it; Sailer’s threads, Karlin’s, Reed’s and Kersey’s (to name a few) for instance.

    But who cares? I’m just a random guy on the internet – people shouldn’t feel bad I’m ignore them, just put me on your ignore list in return…trust me, you’ll feel better that you did.

    On Twitter, I have learned to use the “mute” feature extensively since I started being discovered and followed and harangued by random-butt-hurt-Hindutva-gang. Ain’t nobody got time for that.

    Speaking of Twitter, I’m constantly amazed at how absolutely useless most of the content is – which is why I follow only 20 accounts – but, man, I cannot believe the kinds of people I can interact with and are willing to reply. We’re talking big names in their fields of study – full conversation with experts on Qur’anic manuscripts, like Marijn van Putten (https://phoenixblog.typepad.com/). I had another one with the Algerian astrophysicist, Prof. Nidhal Guessoum.

    Also, you discover lovely things you never knew about, like the traditional dress of the Kyrgyz people (or how an administrative misunderstanding in St. Petersburg, regarding a newly conquered shamanist people, paved the way for the Russian Empire to subsidize them being proselytized into Islam):
    Wa salaam.

    [MORE]

    Also this kind of stuff! The world contains such wonders – mashaAllah!

    • Thanks: SeekerofthePresence
    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  480. @AaronB

    Muslims already have access to the Temple Mount.

    Which is routinely subject to Israeli restriction and violation of treaty.

    Talha wanted shared control of Jerusalem. Which was agreed, if Muslims shared control of Mecca with Jews, which Talha steadfastly refused to entertain.

    Jerusalem would be analogous to Mecca only if it it were held sacred exclusively to Jews. Bear in mind that Christians also lay claim to it. Mecca is more similar to the Vatican.

    In the case of Jerusalem, we have to deal with the predominant sentiments of three major religions. You draw an analogy that fails to consider this fact.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Colin Wright
  481. @Talha

    Intransigent rejection is fine, but there are some personalities I have found to be personally difficult to deal with. Especially when it gets personal or when they have made it a point to be insulting or when they simply lie outright or when the person cannot seem to understand what I am saying (despite multiple attempts at clarity) or intentionally (or unintentionally) continuously misconstrues my statements, etc. In those situations, it is just not worth my time any more (…and as I have made it clear; everyone has a right to their opinion, but not my time. I have to juggle time as a father and a manager of a small IT team.

    Completely understood, akhi. And appreciated as well.

    I myself just might be heading in that direction soon.

    Thanks for the info.

    was-salaam.

  482. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    Right, there is no perfect analogy in the Muslim world for how significant Jerusalem is for Jews. Jerusalem is not just the holiest center of the religion, but the main focus of Jewish national aspiration. Jews pray every day to return to Jerusalem.

    I understand its holy for Christians and Muslims, but you can’t just pull the rug out from under us like that. Certainly, Christian and Muslim religious access should be protected, but you must recognize that it wasn’t only ours first, but its more central and important for us than it can ever be for you, and is our national center as well as our spiritual center.

    In Temple times, it is said that non Jews also offered sacrifices on the High Holidays. There is no religious objection to Muslims praying on the Temple Mount even were the Temple to be reconstructed.

    Now, let’s say that Jews or Christians suddenly discovered Mecca was holy for them. Perhaps an old manuscript revealed Isaac or Abraham or Moses is buried there, or St Paul. Directly beneath the Kabaa.

    Would Muslims entertain a demand to share political control of Mecca?

    We would be wrong to request anything more than access to pray. It was yours first, and its more important you.

    Which is routinely subject to Israeli restriction and violation of treaty.

    Only in response to violence and unrest. Never if there is no unrest. In quiet times, there is no sudden arbitrary closures.

    Jews, in fact, are heavily restricted from praying there, which is really absurd, and slowly changing.

    And of course, you know Jordan did not let Jews pray there at all, when they had control.

  483. @AaronB

    Of course we understand how significant it is for Jews, otherwise we wouldn’t have restored them there after the Romans took them to the curb.

    Look, Aaron … At the end of the day, you’re advancing a religious claim to the land, one that is shared solely by practitioners of your particular variety of Judaism. Even the Evangelicals who appear to share your sentiment are in it for not-so-ulterior motives that, in the long run, don’t exactly bode well for most Jews.

    Truth is, I have no problem with Israeli control of Jerusalem, provided Israel acts equitably toward the Palestinians who reside there.

    And what we’ve witnessed to date is that they simply don’t do this. You’ve got the cart before the horse: the violence and unrest occur because of Israeli conduct.

    Just last month, Jews stormed the al-Aqsa complex with impunity:

    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200916-israel-exploits-normalisation-deals-to-escalate-violations-against-al-aqsa-mosque/

    From January 1 to August 31 of this year, Israel demolished 107 homes and 46 other buildings in East Jerusalem in violation of international law. They’ve also issued a demolition order for the Qa’qa Bin Amr Mosque in Silwan, again, in violation of international law. You can read about these and more, very recent violations here:

    https://palestineun.org/17-september-2020-israeli-violations-in-the-occupied-palestinian-territory-including-east-jerusalem/

    Or you can read about their illegal provocations under the guise of archaeology here:

    https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-excavations-threaten-al-aqsa-mosque-experts/1552432

    Anyways, the litany of evidence against Israel is just too long to cite in one post.

    But if Israel were to change its disposition, ceasing and desisting from this kind of behavior, it’s safe to say that Muslims would have no argument against their rule.

    Until then, you simply make war unavoidable.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  484. @AaronB

    ‘Muslims already have access to the Temple Mount. Talha wanted shared control of Jerusalem.’

    That is what the UN Partition Agreement called for, and what the Zionists assented to.

    In fact, it’s what existed (if not as originally envisaged) up until 1967, when the Zionists just took all of it.

    ‘Which was agreed, if Muslims shared control of Mecca with Jews, which Talha steadfastly refused to entertain.’

    Now you want part of Mecca as well. What are your thoughts on how much of Rome should be ceded to Jewish control?

    After you’ve gotten the parts, will you wait nineteen years before grabbing the rest, or will you just take it right away? But why bother asking? Whatever you agree to now, you’ll just grab what you can once you can.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  485. Art says:

    For what it is worth —- I have seen an article that says that the early Jew archaeological history took place in today’s Saudi Arabia.

    Not my forte or interest.

    ?????

    • Replies: @Talha
  486. @AnonStarter

    ‘In the case of Jerusalem, we have to deal with the predominant sentiments of three major religions. You draw an analogy that fails to consider this fact.’

    Well, two major religions. Judaism is the nominal faith of less than two tenths of one percent of mankind — and practiced by considerably fewer than that.

    Worse still, of that minuscule group, many feel that Jews have no business entering the Holy Land at all until the Messiah leads them to it.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  487. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    Ok, that’s a fair point, I can respect that.

    If you would accept exclusive Jewish control of Jerusalem, provided Jews allow the Muslim population religious access in a fair and just manner, that seems reasonable to me. You are not, on “principle”, insisting on Muslim control.

    If Israel is not being fair and just to Muslims in this regard, I certainly would call for that to immediately end. I fully support Muslim religious access to Jerusalem. As I mentioned, there is no religious objection to Muslims praying on the Temple Mount.

    I will look at your links, and see if there is any context they are missing, and what’s going on in general in this area, before I form a final judgment. My impression at this time is that Israel is pretty good on relihious rights.

    Right now there is conflict and turmoil, so there is probably some level of heavy handedness on the Israeli side, and some level of provocation on the Muslim side. When there is quiet, I think it will be easier to be just and fair on this matter.

  488. @AaronB

    ‘Jews, in fact, are heavily restricted from praying there, which is really absurd, and slowly changing.’

    It may or may not be absurd, but it is in fact a prohibition advocated by many Jews.

    You are insisting on unfettered access to a site where your own religion bars you from prayer. Can you seriously propose anything more absurd?

  489. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    That is what the UN Partition Agreement called for, and what the Zionists assented to.

    And what the Arabs did not assent to. And started a war to get it all.

    In fact, it’s what existed (if not as originally envisaged) up until 1967, when the Zionists just took all of it.

    During which time, the Arabs did not allow Jews access to their holy sites.

    And there is nothing wrong with gaining territory in a war your enemy started.

    Now you want part of Mecca as well. What are your thoughts on how much of Rome should be ceded to Jewish control?

    Hey, if others want a piece of our holy sites, why can’t we have a piece of theirs?

  490. @AnonStarter

    What is it you have tried with me sincerely? All I’ve seen thus far is boilerplate zionism: Palestinians are inherently violent, Jews are merely defending themselves. Show me where you’ve gone as far, proposing equitable administration independent of the ruler’s religious or political affiliation.

    The conversation always ends up with boiler plate arguments on both sides. I have tried many times to rise above the paradigm of the two sides and enter into a different discussion. I referred to our discussions as circuitous, in an attempt to explain the frustration. There are two sides to the story. Neither side is right or wrong.

    Judaism and Islam is like cats and dogs. They will never view the physical world around them in the same way. I am not promoting the Zionist point of view. I get that it is very flawed and the Islamic point of view while also flawed has merit. You would have to discuss the subject from a philosophical or metaphysical starting point. We just for whatever reason have not been able to rise above the pettiness of completion and see the core problem. I have tried. Your religious perspective is appreciated in that you have faith and can see things in a supernatural way.

    Colin is the voice of many people who feel the same way yet lack either the platform or the ability to articulate their sentiment as well as he does. You’re actually frustrated that you can’t respond to him as effectively as you’d like to.

    It does not matter what Colin’s voice represents. He is a very obnoxious conversant. Like Talha spoke about how people annoy her. I find it impossible to ignore him as he implants himself into discussions that are not addressed to him. I respect Talha’s wanting to disengage with me and do not address posts to her. In addition he is not a person of faith and only sees issues in terms of black and white. You have an Islamic point of view and you have knowledge and insight into Islam. Colin is a propagandist. He knows nothing about Islam or Judaism, so it would be pointless to try and get to another level. Like Art: Jews are evil. Zionist are evil. etc.

    In order to reach a different point between Zionist and Palestine, you would have to be willing to examine the different way in which Judaism and Islam view the world. A starting point would be Judaism is more materialistic, and values money as a means of power and wealth. Islam does not objectify money, and does not respect power that is achieved thru monetary success. I am not sure how it views power. But alas you can see what I am trying to get at.

  491. @AaronB

    ‘…Jews pray every day to return to Jerusalem…’

    …but they can’t be bothered to actually go. Witness yourself and Fran.

  492. @AaronB

    ‘And what the Arabs did not assent to. And started a war to get it all…’

    You just cannot get through a post without lying, can you?

    Benny Morris clearly shows how the Jews began attacking the indigenous population withint their assigned territory immediately after they accepted the Partition agreement, and, as soon as the agreement came into force, began seizing additional territory and driving out the inhabitants there as well.

    The surrounding Arab states reacted to the consequent flood of refugees pouring into their cities.

    To claim ‘the Arabs’ started the war is absurd. ‘The Arabs’ responded to continuous, deliberate, and planned Zionist aggression. Just look at a map: where did the bulk of the fighting in 1948 take place? Within the territory assigned to the Zionists — as it would have had ‘the Arabs’ started the war — or outside of those borders — as it did because the Zionists had crossed the partition line immediately upon it coming into force?

    • Agree: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @AaronB
  493. Talha says:
    @Art

    There were many Jews scattered around the Arabian peninsula, a good number of them in Yemen (look up the Kingdom of Himyar whose held power for a few centuries, but were defeated and replaced by the Etiopians with a satrap*), but also in other places; a tribe here, a few tribes there kind of thing.

    *Pretty concise article here:
    https://www.ias.edu/ideas/2011/bowersock-jewish-arabia

    Peace.

  494. @AaronB

    And of course, you know Jordan did not let Jews pray there at all, when they had control.’

    Jordan and Israel happened to be at war — and as we’ve seen, letting Jews in under any terms at all tends to be a slippery slope. After all, supposedly the Zionists had no intention of seeking an independent state at all when they were allowed to enter Palestine. Obviously, the Jordanians were right to be very wary of letting them get a foot in the door again.

    More typical was the situation described in the nineteenth century by a Rabbi Joseph Schwarz:

    ‘This wall is visited by all our brothers on every feast and festival; and the large space at its foot is often so densely filled up, that all cannot perform their devotions here at the same time. It is also visited, though by less numbers, on every Friday afternoon, and by some nearly every day. No one is molested in these visits by the Mahomedans, as we have a very old firman from the Sultan of Constantinople that the approach shall not be denied to us, though the Porte obtains for this privilege a special tax, which is, however, quite insignificant.’

    When it’s purely a question of religion, Muslims have exercised their usual tolerance and allowed Jews to pray where and as their religion seems to dictate they should.

    …but now, you want the whole Mount. It would seem things don’t work out very well for other faiths when Jews are top dog.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @AnonStarter
  495. @AaronB

    ‘…Hey, if others want a piece of our holy sites, why can’t we have a piece of theirs?’

    Because, Aaron, Jerusalem is sacred to them as well as to you. When you can find the references in the Torah to the holiness of Mecca or Rome, you’ll have an argument.

    Or, if you like, we can just do it proportionately — according to the number of practitioners of each faith. More democratic, that way, wouldn’t you say, Aaron? Greatest good for the greatest possible number and all that?

  496. @Colin Wright

    Well, two major religions. Judaism is the nominal faith of less than two tenths of one percent of mankind — and practiced by considerably fewer than that.

    I look at it in terms of influence rather than numbers.

    That said, your point concerning Orthodox Judaism’s prerequisites for return to Israel is one which can’t be repeated often enough.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  497. @AnonStarter

    ‘I look at it in terms of influence rather than numbers.’

    Of late, one has to ask whether that influence has been for good or for ill.

    For example, while I’m skeptical all would be sweetness and light between Islam and ‘the West’ otherwise, it’s illuminating to look at who has done so much to worsen relations between the two since 1948.

    Israel, Iraq, the general vilification of the Muslim world in Western culture over the last thirty years?

    Who, right now, is working to bring about a war between the United States and Iran? Absent Israel, would it ever have occurred to us to assassinate Soleimani?

    As Fran noted, I tend to look at things in non-religious terms. Well, in non-religious terms…

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  498. @Colin Wright

    Of late, one has to ask whether that influence has been for good or for ill.

    Yes, of course, and the myriad examples you cite must be considered as well, though even from a secular perspective, it wouldn’t be prudent to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You yourself have recognized pragmatic utility in religion that does not encroach upon your personal liberty, and if we’re speaking of Judaism per se, then it all depends upon the manner in which that Judaism is manifest. By itself, wouldn’t strict adherence to the terms of the Decalogue make for a rather civil society?

    My point here is that, since it’s unlikely these religions will fade into oblivion any time soon, it would be better to work with them than against them. Granted, there are irreconcilable differences, but if we establish a basic minimum requirement for respecting certain fundamental rights as a foundation upon which to negotiate an equitable settlement to conflict, we can work from there.

    In spite of its myriad flaws, America provides evidence it can work. Would that American money had the effect of that American principle …

  499. Will big media block awareness of the Biden-Burisma scandal?

    Place your bets.

  500. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    and, as soon as the agreement came into force

    ,

    The Partition never came into force. It was immediately rejected by the Arabs.

    According to Wikipedia, the war began with Arabs attacking Jews. Anyways, as usual with Arabs, there is no need to speculate. They quite clearly said they reject any compromise over land and will attack to take it all.

    Somehow, your propaganda efforts are getting worse. All effective propaganda needs a dollop of truth.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  501. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Ok, so Jordan letting unarmed, non violent orthodox Jews pray at their holy sites constitutes a threat? OK.

    Anyways, after 67 Israel was still at war with the Arab world, after the famous “3 nos” that rejected peace, compromise, and negotiation, yet Israel handed over the keys of AL Aqsa to Muslim control and banned Jews from praying there, in a stunning act of generosity.

    Nevertheless, traditional Islam is more tolerant than what the Muslim world has become. I have said before that when Islam is top dog and other proples humiliated and inferior, Islam can be tolerant. The challenge for Islam is to accept others as their equal, which it cannot yet do.

    Because, Aaron, Jerusalem is sacred to them as well as to you. When you can find the references in the Torah to the holiness of Mecca or Rome, you’ll have an argument

    You didn’t understand my point. If Jews suddenly found that Mecca is mentioned in the Torah, Muslims would not suddenly entertain the notion of joint political control, and Jews would be obnoxious and grotesque in asking.

  502. @AaronB

    *Sigh*

    According to Wikipedia, the war began with Arabs attacking Jews.

    Wikipedia cites Benny Morris as its source, presenting the following event as the onset of the ’48 war:

    The first deaths of the 1947–49 Palestine war occurred on 30 November 1947 during an ambush of two buses carrying Jews.

    In examining Morris’s 1948, Jeremy Hammond writes

    Yet Morris also acknowledges that these attacks were almost certainly “not ordered or organized by” the Arab Palestinian leadership. And “the majority view” in the intelligence wing of the Haganah—the Zionists’ paramilitary organization that later became the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)—“was that the attackers were driven primarily by a desire to avenge” a raid by the Jewish terrorist group Lehi, also known as the Stern Gang, on an Arab family ten days prior. Lehi “had selected five males of the Shubaki family and executed them in a nearby orange grove” as an act of revenge for the apparently mistaken belief that the Shubakis had informed the British authorities about a Lehi training session that prompted a British raid on the group in which five Jewish youths were killed.

    More on this available here:

    https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/11/14/benny-morriss-untenable-denial-of-the-ethnic-cleansing-of-palestine/

    Indeed, “all effective propaganda needs a dollop of truth.” This perfectly describes your own effort in that you correctly say Arabs rejected the flagrantly inequitable Partition Plan yet attempt to conflate this rejection with the cause of conflict.

    We now return you to your regularly scheduled hasbara.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @AaronB
  503. @Colin Wright

    Jordan and Israel happened to be at war — and as we’ve seen, letting Jews in under any terms at all tends to be a slippery slope.

    We also have to remember that Israel denied Palestinians access to their homes in West Jerusalem, a violation of the ’49 Armistice Agreements to which Israel hypocritically appealed when seeking access to their religious sites.

    You see how this works? A dollop of truth in a goulash of lies.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  504. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    According to Wiki, Israel declared independence and the next day, the Arab League invaded with 5 armies.

    The stated aim of their invasion was to create a unitary state.

    Seems pretty clear cut to me. People can read the wiki page if they like, its quite informative about what the Arabs said and did.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @Colin Wright
  505. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    The two aren’t at all similar.

    Israel was claiming land the Arabs vacated during the war as its rightful spoils from a war of self defense, and the expulsion of an equal number of Jews from the Arab world.

    There was no cost to Jordan in allowing jews access to their holy sites. It was pure malice. Israel notably did not behave this way in 67.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  506. @AaronB

    According to Wiki

    WP is a third party citing Morris. We went straight to Morris for our information.

    You also fail to mention that Israel’s declaration of statehood was unilateral, without Security Council ratification, and as such, not legally binding.

    You also fail to mention that Arab armies came in late to the conflict, well after Jews had slaughtered Palestinian civilians at Deir Yassin and other localities.

    You also fail to mention that, according to Israel’s own official assessment of the conflict, Israel itself was primarily responsible for the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians from their homes.

    The stated aim of their invasion was to create a unitary state.

    After how many years of Israel’s statesmen declaring they wanted the same?

    As we’ve just demonstrated, WP is lacking in academic depth. You rely upon it regularly because Israeli outfits such as CAMERA are actively advancing a propaganda war there:

    CAMERA and WP email batch 1
    CAMERA and WP email batch 2

    • Replies: @AaronB
  507. @AaronB

    The two aren’t at all similar.

    You’re correct in that Jordan denied access to Israel only as a response to Israel’s denial. But in truth, the two are similar in that both were violations of the Armistice Agreement.

    By your own criterion of judgment, Jordan could also claim “spoils of war from a war of self-defense.” After all, Israel’s top statesmen all acknowledged that the ’67 war was one of their own choosing:

    http://www.alanhart.net/the-lies-about-the-1967-war-are-still-more-powerful-than-the-truth-2/

    Be careful with your line of reasoning, Aaron. You’re hoisting yourself by your own petard.

  508. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    Eh.

    The fact remains that the Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected and invaded. And the Arabs themselves said the reason for their invasion was to crush the nascent Jewish state. Its so stark and clear cut.

    Interested readers are free to study the conflict and come to their own conclusions.

    You have said that the Arabs were right to reject a Jewish state on even 7% of the land, much less the Partition. With that attitude, its impossible to see how any compromise is possible with you.

    Your main desire seems to be to endlessly pore over your grievances – and ignore the fact that your enemies might have an equal list of grievancss – and reject any compromise with the existence of Israel.

    You take incompatible positions. You defend Arab unwillingness to compromise and then claim the Israelis were the intransigent ones.

    You seem too narcissistic to grasp that there are two sides to every story, and compromise is the humane and reasonable way to resolve a conflict. You insist your side is entirely right, and will not compromise.

    So.

    Only the destruction of Israel will satisfy you, and this is the conflict in microcosm. Hardline Muslim vs Jew willing to compromise. Youre free to continue working for our destruction, as we are free to work to confound your schemes. By not settling for fair terms, in the end you will lose more than you dream.

    Let it be so, if that’s how you want it. The sane element in the Muslim world is leaving you behind.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @Colin Wright
  509. @AaronB

    Eh.

    By far the most intelligent part of your response. You really should have stopped there.

    You seem to have forgotten that you flat out lied about my words in this very thread:

    https://www.unz.com/announcement/open-thread-3/#comment-4208581

    I had written:

    It isn’t that Muslims must be in control, but rather, that political control prove equitable to its subject population. Were Muslims in control, their mandate would be to secure such equity for their subjects.

    … to which you replied …

    Saying you need to be in control to administer the land fairly is just another way of saying you need to control Jews.

    Why should anyone accept anything you have to say at face value when you’re so outrageously mendacious?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  510. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    That wasn’t a lie. I characterized your statements as a slippery attempt to deny doing exactly what you were doing. A not uncommon thing people do.

    I understood you to mean that while Muslims don’t need to be in control in theory, in practice, only Muslims could be relied on to be fair.

    Rereading your words, I see they might simply mean that were Muslims in control, they would be under a binding commitment to be fair, without necessarily implying that Muslims would actually fulfill this commitment any better than Jews.

    Context determines interpretation, and you were making a case for why Jews shouldn’t be in control.

    If this was your meaning, then of course I take my earlier rematk back.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @Art
  511. @AaronB

    ‘According to Wiki, Israel declared independence and the next day, the Arab League invaded with 5 armies…’

    This can be seen as a comment on Wikipedia. I fail to see any other value in the statement.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  512. @AaronB

    ‘Eh.

    The fact remains that the Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected and invaded…’

    No…the fact remains that the Jews accepted — and then immediately and cynically began violating their own word — which it is a matter of record they had no intention of keeping.

    ‘The Arabs’ responded. Perhaps needless to say, they responded to the actual actions of the Jews, not their lies.

    Do you see something to criticize in that?

  513. @Colin Wright

    ‘According to Wiki, Israel declared independence and the next day, the Arab League invaded with 5 armies…’

    This can be seen as a comment on Wikipedia. I fail to see any other value in the statement.’

    Just to pedantically elucidate…

    ‘The five Arab armies’ so beloved of Zionist mythology would be the Lebanese, Iraqis, Syrians, Transjordanians, and Egyptians.

    The Lebanese certainly didn’t violate the territory assigned to the Jewish state — at any time. The Iraqis only entered the war at a later date — and again didn’t enter the territory assigned to the Jewish state. Neither did the Jordanians.

    That leaves the Syrians and the Egyptians. The Syrians did cross into territory assigned to the Jewish state — eventually and abortively, but I don’t think on day one.

    That leaves the Egyptians. I do believe they entered the territory assigned to the Jewish state in the Negev.

    Was it on day one? If so, congratulations — you score one out of five. Shall we talk about the one Arab army?

    • Thanks: AnonStarter
  514. @AaronB

    Why should I accept this defense?

    Not only do you enjoy a lengthy rap sheet of prevarication, you falsify my words in the very explanation you provide:

    Context determines interpretation, and you were making a case for why Jews shouldn’t be in control.

    Not at all. I was making a case for why charlatans shouldn’t be in control, be they Jewish or Arab.

    You’re an intelligent man, Aaron. Tell us how it is you misunderstood the context of my statements.

  515. ‘…In examining Morris’s 1948, Jeremy Hammond writes…’

    You’re noticing a classic Benny Morrisism.

    Morris is only honest by comparison with other Zionists; he prefers to avoid outright lies.

    However, he’s certainly not averse to deception. One of his little tricks is to present an Arab attack that happened on December 17th first — then describe the Jewish attack that happened on December 16th second.

    The casual reader is left with the impression that the Jewish attack was retaliation for the Arab attack.

    While we’re at it, another Morrisism is a principled refusal to consider oral testimony. It’s only written testimony that may be considered.

    Of course, guess who controls what written testimony is accessible.

    As I say, it’s all relative. Compared to some, Morris is quite honest.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @Talha
  516. Art says:
    @AaronB

    I saw an Israeli YouTube program with a Jew monitor and an Israeli Knesset member and a youngish Israeli Arab. The question was on the treatment of the Israeli Arabs.

    The old Jew went first, and went on an on about how the Israeli Arabs wanted to kill him and all Israeli Jews – thus they should not even be in Israel. There was ZERO in between in his mind. An Arab could not be a neighbor. The fact that the Palestinians were living in their own homes for hundreds of years was meaningless.

    Every time the Palestinian made an undisputable point regarding justice for Palestinians – the old Jew interrupted him and talked over him. The Jew monitor was useless.

    Clearly the old Jew was a nasty bastard, uninterested in right and wrong. He was useless as a peaceable human being.

    Aaron – he was YOU. Arrogant, righteous, mean, miserable, angry, and mad at the world – a product of tribal hate, instilled in youth by age five. Aaron, your life is over as a possible net plus to humanity. Some day this will stop being fun for you. Your fate is to be bitter.

    Question – are YOU going to subject your progenies to the same upbringing – forever forced to defend evil.

  517. @Colin Wright

    Nice assessment.

    I recently read an article by Morris that attempts to present an argument similar to one of Aaron’s, proposing that jihad is the root cause of the conflict. To make his case, he reaches back to 1936, citing some visiting member of the Iraqi parliament as the first individual to call for jihad against the Jews of Palestine.

    It’s quite an embarrassing piece, even for Morris.

  518. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    I apologize ahead of time for the loss of brain cells anyone may have experienced by reading the above.

    Peace.

  519. MBlanc46 says:
    @Colin Wright

    The “Palestinians” don’t want it to succeed, either.

    • Disagree: Colin Wright
  520. bjondo says:
    @MBlanc46

    The Palestinians experience with Yid “‘peace”‘
    is “‘peace”‘ to Yid means time to steal more land,
    murder more olive trees, goats, sheep, Palestinians.

    Yid wishes Yid lie to become accepted
    and Yid allies actively push Yid lies.

    5 dancing shlomos

  521. @MBlanc46

    From the epigraph of Rashid Khalidi’s The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine:

    We are a nation threatened by disappearance. —‘Isa and Yusuf al-‘Isa, Filastin, May 7, 1914

    Note the use of “nation” as well as the title of the newspaper, appearing three years before the Balfour Declaration was signed.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  522. @AnonStarter

    ‘Note the use of “nation” as well as the title of the newspaper, appearing three years before the Balfour Declaration was signed.’

    The whole ‘there are no Palestinians’ schtick is really an implicit confession of guilt.

    If there were Palestinians, then Zionism would be indefensible — therefore, there cannot be any Palestinians.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
  523. anon[386] • Disclaimer says:

    What would happen if Unz.com had a Diaspora instance? Would people join up?

  524. @MBlanc46

    If you had put the inverted commas before “The” you would have clearly acknowledged the the truth that the assertion that “The Palestinians don’t want it to succeed” is almost completely uninformative.

  525. @Ron Unz

    OT no doubt but can an apologetic retraction ever be misplaced?

    I recall I think that you made something of the fact that the Germans advanced into Russia in 1941 with transport provided by 700,000 horses. My response I think was to play down its implications based on calculation I did which called on my experience of trekking in the Himalayas with ponies to carry the baggage and supplies. As my lovkdown TV viewing has just allowed me to see a documentary about the myth of German technical efficiency in WW2 I have learned that the Germans used 1.5 million horses for transport in WW1 and 2.5 million in WW2. More to the point 85 per cent of their military transport was horse drawn and the need for 25kg a day for each horse’s fodder meant that the biggest burden on the transport system was for horse fodder… I can’t of course vouch for the figures. Perhaps the most striking figures given were for the 167 [367?] vastly over engineered and hard to drive Tiger tanks that Germany produced against the 4500 Shermans. (The common sense design and quality of the T-34s wasn’t omitted either).

  526. This society is too corrupt for me. Most people are evil. That is just the way that it is. Gamers play. People that have morals live by a different set of rules than the Gamers. They are frauds that are full of shit. Being with them or like them would be a fate worse than death for me. When someone has sold out their morality, any other gains will never be enjoyed, which is why they are easily bored thrill seekers, always in search of something to replace their soul, which they have lost, so that is certainly not winning. They have lost and are too delusional to even realize it. If everyone requires a support group just to be able to cope with society, then this is obviously an uninhabitable society, and society is the problem, and a support group will not have the solution, since it is part of a dysfunctional society.

    We are at a time when more people are corrupt than honest, which was not the case before. The risks are too high. The con artists are complete frauds that live the exact opposite of what they preach. Many of them are in the media and alternative media and many of them are accomplices in crime, or in fact out right criminals. Concealing knowledge of a crime makes someone an accomplice of that crime.

    When the psychpathic, predatory, criminals that have perpetrated the litany of crimes against me have been prosecuted and imprisoned, and I have received justice, then maybe society will be safe enough for me. Everyone realizes that the Justice system in America is totally corrupt. I will not participate in an undeniably unjust society. I have reported the crimes committed against me over and over to authorities, institutions, and government officials at all levels which have all been totally ignored, proving tbat society is just too corrupt, and there is no justice. And don’t even fool yourselves into believing that you are a citizen spies! You are God damned fucking perverted criminal and thieves fooling nobody but yourselves!  Scumizens!  Second class citizens and total losers and illegitimate individuals! Your life styles are crimes in and of themselves you sick perverted pathetic freaks of nature! 

    All of America is a No Go Zone! In case you haven’t noticed! How could anyone deny it?! This started long before BLM riots too, so don’t even think about using that as an excuse!

    Andrea Iravani

  527. Definitely locking the barn after the horse is gone.

    ‘Thousands rally to support beheaded French teacher.’

    • Replies: @Talha
  528. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Yeah…something about the way that’s worded brings up a very morbid version of Weekend at Bernie’s or something.

    Wouldn’t the proper way to express it be something like?:
    “Thousands rally to support free speech in wake of beheaded teacher”

    I don’t know. Maybe it’s clear from the context though…?

    Peace.

  529. Published on 9/20/20:

    Palestinians were never at the table

    This month marks the 25th anniversary of the beginning of the Oslo accords and the signing of the Declaration of Principles in Washington in 1993.

    The accords were touted as the only way to reach a permanent peace between Palestinians and Israelis based on the “principles” of mutual recognition and “land for peace.”

    An agreement was presented as one where Palestinians would end up enjoying freedom and self-determination on their own territory. What that territory would be in law, as well as the status of Jerusalem and a resolution to the plight of Palestinian refugees, would be addressed over five years of negotiations that were to culminate in 1998.

    It was hoped that during this time, mutual trust and confidence-building measures would generate enough momentum to ensure that a final settlement would be unstoppable.

    Not only did it not happen, it all turned out to be unworkable subterfuge.

    Not a bad summary. Tells it like it was.

  530. Talha says:

    Somebody from an Indo-Pak family posted this on Twitter as an example of an oven from a culture that doesn’t do much baking:

    I’m visiting my mom and this is is what her oven looks like too.

    “Oh wonderful! A large empty cavity in the kitchen?! Let’s store stuff in it!”

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  531. Finally struck me like a lightning bolt when I was having a bizarre conversation with a Jewish colleague that COVID-paranoia comes straight from Judaism. They are the most germaphobic people. Since, politically, they have been “judaizing” the West for 200 years or more, this paranoia and mask-wearing over a disease with a 97.7% survival rate … is their crowning achievement. They have induced millions of people to run around like phobic Jews.

  532. The morbid humor of the episode of the beheaded Frenchman continues.

    He had been pictured with a banner saying “refugees welcome.”

    As one commentator noted, this would make him the ultimate example of the suicidal liberal.

  533. @Talha

    ‘I’m visiting my mom and this is is what her oven looks like too.

    “Oh wonderful! A large empty cavity in the kitchen?! Let’s store stuff in it!”

    Peace.’

    This is very weird. My wife did this as well — but that’s not the kicker.

    I made my living with a small moving business. I would go out to do estimates for the long-distance moves I hoped to do — and naturally, it was, to say the least, important to see if the entire load would fit in one truck, and if so, how much of the truck would be left.

    So I would exhaustively inspect every corner of that house — and I always looked suspiciously in the oven.

    But in fifteen-twenty years, I never saw another example of anyone who kept dishes in the oven. Nobody did it. I could have saved myself the trouble of looking in literally hundreds of ovens over the years.

    Now here she is — my wife’s long-lost twin sister.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Wizard of Oz
  534. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    LOOOL! When I mentioned my mom’s oven to a fellow Desi (Indo-Pak) person, the response was:
    “The story of every Desi oven ever.”

    But you will only find this among the older first-generation immigrants – the old-school uncles and aunties. My generation bakes stuff (which is why I was opening the oven to use at my mom’s place).

    I’m going to guess you never had to move the home of an older Desi couple in all that time, correct? Because if you did and you didn’t find stuff stacked in their oven, they would be an exception to the rule.

    Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised to find some Desis storing tupperware in there.

    Peace.

  535. ‘But you will only find this among the older first-generation immigrants – the old-school uncles and aunties. My generation bakes stuff (which is why I was opening the oven to use at my mom’s place).’

    My own weird variation on this is the dishwasher.

    Neither I or my wife ever got into using one; we both grew up without one, and it never really made sense to me. It’s just as easy to wash the dishes and put them away as it is to put them in the dishwasher and put them away.

    But once a dishwasher appears in the kitchen, it stays. It’ll add to the resale value of the house, so ripping it out would be perverse. Plus, it is useful after Thanksgiving, etc. We’re not talking about two plates, a bowl, and a frying pan any more.

    But three hundred and sixty days of the year, the dishwasher just sits there. So our house gets remodeled, and there’s this nice new dishwasher there.

    Ultimate hi-tech wine cooler! It’s even got controls and buttons and things.

    …and if all your wine won’t fit, perhaps it’s time to admit there is a problem…

    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
  536. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    My mom is the same way with her dishwasher since she is old school. Only uses it when guests are over.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  537. @Colin Wright

    Surely you found dishes in the warming drawer many ovens have long had?

  538. @Talha

    Dawn! I forgot to advise a nice in-law to put two dishwashers into her new kitchen. That would really save putting away time.

    • LOL: Talha
  539. @Ron Unz

    Ron, please don’t miss my Comment just appended to your
    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-understanding-world-war-ii/

    I think I previously checked on A.J.P.Taylor with my old friend who was President of Taylor’s college (he was a Fellow of Magdalen) but this latest stuff is, I respectfully suggest, deadly for your Taylor based thesis.

  540. Talha says:

    A short poem I was inspired with this morning (for an open thread):

    Open your city’s gate! Let your walls crumble!

    Surrender your defenses and lay down your arms at the One Who demands the citadel of your heart.

    Are you frightened?

    He only comes to reclaim what was His from the beginning.

    Peace.

  541. Here is a song that I wrote dedicated to the surveillance state and medical mafia:

    I hate to break the news to you
    The Nazis lost World War Two
    You seem to be really out of touch
    Because you apparently don’t care so much
    You don’t have one iota of common sense
    Your thoughts are scattered
    You’re extremely dense
    You’re going to end up like the German Nazis did
    Because you act like the German Nazis did
    Everybody hates you
    The whole world hates you
    You’ll go down in history
    Your names will live in infamy
    For all of eternity
    Just like the German Nazis did
    Because you act like the German Nazis did
    Apparently you didn’t know
    America fought Nazis in World War Two
    You’ll end up like the German Nais did
    Because you act like the German Nazis did
    Every body hates you
    The whole world hates you
    You’ll go down in history
    Your names will live in infamy
    For all of eternity
    Just like the German Nazis did

    By Andrea Iravani

  542. I think we can all agree this will prove true.

    ‘French minister: Lessons on freedom of expression will continue’

    For example, should you say something critical of Jews or Israel, you will be taught a lesson.

    • LOL: Talha
  543. US Justice Department files antitrust lawsuit against Google

    It will likely be more than a year before the lawsuit goes to trial if it’s not settled first. That could mean a Joe Biden administration will be responsible for continuing the case if the former vice president defeats Trump in November. While Biden has yet to detail his thinking on antitrust, his campaign is talking to proponents of more aggressive enforcement than existed under former President Barack Obama. Many Democratic lawmakers are also concerned about the need for stepped-up antitrust enforcement of large technology companies.

    Anyone believe that a President Biden would continue this suit?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  544. And business as usual from the Middle East’s Only Democracy™ …

    Illegal Israeli Colonists Flood Palestinian Farmlands With Sewage, Attack Villages, Near Nablus

    Azem added that the colonists flooded with sewage water Palestinian lands containing olive and apricot trees, in the western area of the town, causing serious losses to the livelihoods of the farmers and their families.

    Also on Tuesday, a group of colonists from the illegal Elon Moreh colony, northeast of Nablus, attacked Palestinian olive orchards and assaulted the residents while picking their trees in Khallet al-Jaghoub area, east of Deir al-Hatab village, before more Palestinians rushed to the area and forced the assailants away.

    On Monday, the colonists invaded olive orchards in Deir al-Hatab village, east of Nablus, and flooded them with wastewater, in addition to attacking the villagers.

    The Israeli assailants, from the illegal Elon Moreh colony, channeled the sewer water into the orchards to flood and sabotage them, in order to prevent their owners from picking their olive trees during the current harvest season.

    While the illegal colonists constantly attack the Palestinians, their homes and property, their farmlands, and even holy sites and graveyards, these violations always witness a serious escalation during the olive harvest season.

    • Thanks: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Art
    , @AnonStarter
  545. Art says:
    @AnonStarter

    While the illegal colonists constantly attack the Palestinians

    I do not get why these squatters are called “colonists” — they are thieves.

    All the Jews who back Zionism are bad inferior immoral people — we can come to no other rational conclusion.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @AnonStarter
  546. @AnonStarter

    The head of Australia’s ACCC would certainly support its being pursued, as would the government judging by the strong stand it has taken on making Google (and FB ?) pay for news gathered by others. So it will be interesting to see what influence other countries have on the Biden administration’s approach. It might well be I guess that Google would try and have the matter dealt with in the US in a way which minimises damage and satizfies (just) other countries.

  547. Mildly amusing. We have an actual attempt on the part of a foreign power (other than Israel) to interfere in the 2020 election!

    …unfortunately, it was not at all what is sought.

    ‘…Threatening messages sent to Democrats blamed on Proud Boys actually came from Iran, FBI says. The foreign disinformation was meant to incite more unrest and damage the candidacy of Donald Trump…’

    • Replies: @Talha
  548. @Ron Unz

    Ron, by chance, while looking for any email which might have told me whether A.J.P.Taylor had been “purged” ny Oxford as you alleged in that July 2018 article on the origins of WW2** I came across a couple of emails I must have missed.

    One I report, just for the good news side of it was from a mathematical physicist, Rhodes Scholar, Wprld Bank executive turned top public servant who thanked me for sending reference to
    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-the-bolshevik-revolution-and-its-aftermath/ and, at the end of a long email indicated genial pleasure at how a physicist could turn into a historian.

    But it was this article that evoked a horrified response from an almost equally distinguished person (English) who has risen from humble beginnings through Oxford by scholarship.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-oddities-of-the-jewish-religion/

    It was “didgusting”, full of “lies” and I shouldn’t have circulated it as if it belonged to respectable discourse (indeed might be crime!! And he would object to your ever visiting his country). So….. trying to keep it simple….

    Am I right to say that the one essential point you raise, setting aside the interesting antiquarianism, is that a culture may have formed which had appreciable residual influence throughout the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and hasn’t totally expired that created and fostered bitter anti goy hatred and malignity?

    Is that it? It seems to me you had at least something yo build that on though I have to take what you say about Shaahak’s book on trust. (Some eye trouble has slowed down my reading speed).

    *** *** ***
    PS You are, btw, totally wrong in your assessment of my attitude to American Pravda and other anti-conventional- wisdom stuff you publish. Even before I began getting interested in the matters you raise I have always delighted in the challenge to received ideas. You have been doing so much what I would once have hoped to do that I get great pleasure in providimg, if I can, some critical fine tuning so that someone with so much to contribute doesn’t fall on his face through simple error or naive seeming assertion. Of course there are suspiciously loose ends concerning 9/11 of course, and I think Mossad knew embarrassing stuff, but the fact that you said the WTC buildings came down in free fall into their own footprints (which they did not) and that you make nothing of the way the building it lower came down first are amongst fateful flaws in your relatively maximalist conspiracy theory – even though you reject nonsense about nuclear devices and Rumsfeld and Cheney involvement. Just for one example.

    BTW my first boss, for over two years, was Australia’s representative (in effect ambassador) in Washington in WW2 and a confidant and correspondent of Frankfurter, Acheson as well as equivalent Brits. I know his biographer well and am not aware of anything which his copious diaries would support on any of the UR WW2 heterodoxy. Mind you he was teetotal and a pre war supporter of appeasement, so, unlike A.J.P.Taylor not a great admirer of Churchill.

    *** *** ***

    **I think I told you that my friend who has been head of Taylor’s college, of which he remained a Fellow, reported that he knew of nothing that suggested such a “purge ” including nothing from gossip at Taylor’s funeral.

    ** *** ***
    And another PS. Why do Jews get so upset about medieval blood libels when we are talking of an age when witches were burned?!

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  549. @AnonStarter

    More on this story …

    ‘Paradise lost’: How Israel turned the West Bank into a sewage dump for its settlements

    Untreated wastewater has destroyed the soil of Palestinian villages, causing often ancient olive trees to die and livelihoods to be lost

    The sewage is not the only problem that Leshem created for the Maarouf family and their land.

    About 10 dunams of the land’s original size were confiscated for the settlement area, which they are now forbidden from accessing. Settlers also previously attacked the land and cut down 200 olive trees that were about 25 years old.

    Deir Ballut is surrounded by the illegal settlements of Leshem, Peduel and Beit Aryeh-Ofarim, all of which release sewage that ends up on the village’s agricultural land.

    Yehya Mustafa, head of the village municipality, tells MEE that while the settlements pump their sewage into the village, Israeli authorities are simultaneously preventing the town from building their own landfill.

    The army, he says, “chase us to pay fines reaching up to 7,000 shekels (\$2,000) and confiscates Palestinian vehicles designated for trash collection.

    “We file complaints daily and address the Israeli authorities and international institutions, but to no avail.” …

    Mohammad Matawe, an agricultural engineer at the Union of Agricultural Work Committees, a Palestinian NGO, explains that the untreated sewage has wide-ranging effects on the land it pours onto.

    These include destroying the soil and changing its biological composition, consequently causing the trees to die, which is a widespread phenomenon across the West Bank.

    The residents of the village of Qaryout, south of Nablus, also recently discovered sewage on their lands.

    “We were not aware of the amount of sewage being pumped on the village lands until recently,” Bashar Muammar, an activist against settlement activity, tells MEE.

    He says that this is an “indication of the increasing population in the settlements of Eli, Shilo and Shvut Rachel, surrounding the village”.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  550. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    If this was Iran, then very, very stupid and sloppy move indeed.

    However, there is one thing to keep in mind, Israel is top-tier when it comes to things like cyber-security, cyber-warfare. I have a friend who is in the IT security field and he says that the Israelis are massively disproportionately represented at IT security trade conferences. These things are no longer physical messages.

    Can the Israelis now generate these messages (spoof) as if they are coming from a particular source? Something that the FBI has not yet caught up to? Very scary thought.

    I’m not saying that the Iranians didn’t do it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if nations like Israel, China and the US (and others who have the capability) are looking for the ability to do this kind of thing in order to stir up trouble with their enemies.

    Peace.

  551. @Art

    ‘All the Jews who back Zionism are bad inferior immoral people — we can come to no other rational conclusion.’

    There is a definite inverse relationship between the intelligence and moral stature of a Jew and his enthusiasm for Zionism.

  552. @AnonStarter

    Jus’ Jewish folks bein’ Jewish folks, I reckon.

    Israel is to Jewry as the Third Reich was to Germans. Both expressed the least appetizing aspects of the people in question.

  553. Ron Unz says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Ron, by chance, while looking for any email which might have told me whether A.J.P.Taylor had been “purged” ny Oxford as you alleged in that July 2018 article on the origins of WW2**

    **I think I told you that my friend who has been head of Taylor’s college, of which he remained a Fellow, reported that he knew of nothing that suggested such a “purge ” including nothing from gossip at Taylor’s funeral.

    Well, Taylor’s Wikipedia page recounts how he was purged from Oxford for writing his classic bestseller on the Origins of WWII:

    He became a Fellow of Magdalen College, Oxford, in 1938, a post he held until 1976. He was also a lecturer in modern history at the University of Oxford from 1938 to 1963. At Oxford he was such a popular speaker that he had to give his lectures at 8:30 a.m. to avoid the room becoming over-crowded…

    In 1964, whilst he retained his college fellowship, the University of Oxford declined to renew Taylor’s appointment as a university lecturer in modern history. This apparently sudden decision came in the aftermath of the controversy around his book The Origins of the Second World War. Moving to London, he became a lecturer at the Institute of Historical Research at University College London and at the Polytechnic of North London.[10]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._P._Taylor#Oxford_years

    His purge for writing the book is also described in his long 1990 obituary in the NY Times:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/08/obituaries/ajp-taylor-british-historian-dies.html

    As my article mentioned, after 25 years of extremely popular lecturing at Oxford, he was summarily fired the year after he published his great classic history because of the extreme controversy it had aroused in certain quarters.

    Those basic facts seem in absolutely no dispute and if your friend claims to have been unaware of them, that hardly strengthens his credibility on any related matters.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  554. @Art

    I agreed that they’re thieves, but I won’t go so far as to agree that they’re entirely bad.

    In fact, many have reasonable views that you and I may share.

    Just not when it comes to Palestine.

    • Replies: @Art
  555. @Ron Unz

    Thanks Ron. I enjoyed reading the obit and, as you say, the “basic [selected bu not self-explanatory] facts are not in dispute” and are open to your enthusiasm for *extremely unlikely* coincidences. My no doubt equally individual enthusiasm for finding alternative scenarios (as with the possible early warnings from Wuhan you will no doubt recall with irritation) easily comes up with the discussions in a hypothetical formal or informal committee to consider offering him reappointment as university lecturer two years after publication of his controversial book.**

    As I am just reminded of the novelty of #MeToo by a news item saying more complaints of sexual harassment have just been made against a former greatly admired (as conservative legal scholar judge of our highest court
    I can’t help noting the unconventional nature of Taylor’s and his wives’ attitude to sexual relations and wonder whether there weren’t deep underground rumbles about his use of his undoubted charisma on girls blessed with the pill circa 1960.

    Other snippets from hypothetical committee discussions:

    “Well, setting aside the fact that he is an arrogant prick, which doesn’t make him unique, it is obvious that his resentment at not getting the Regius professorship is such that we won’t get a volunteered extra penny’s worth from him tht he’s not contracted for. And with the sales of that book I don’t suppose he’s short of cash”.

    “Look, he’s 56,. With peak notoriety from that best-seller, he’ll be off like a shot to the first American university that offers him a tenured professorship and generous terms”.

    “Do we want every 18 year old thinking a history degree is a passport to TV fame as the great populariser?”

    And, so on, the connotations of “purged” remain to be proved.

    ** His famous choice of 8 am for his lectures to keep the numbers attending from overflowing I can put in context. At 10am I arrived on time for my first economics lecture. The lecture hall (Pembroke College dining room) was full to overflowing. As we struggled for places to sit the lecturer said “don’t worry, there’ll be plenty of room next week .

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  556. @Wizard of Oz

    PS. Another possible explanation for the “purge” was the well established practice in major legal, accounting and consultancy firms of an up or out rule. I recall indeed that a friend who joined McKinsey in the early 1960s told me , when he became a senior partner,of just that rule applying to those who did not become partners within X years Much later I learned of a major university picking up taletend Harvard academic staff who were not found tenured places at Harvard by the age of 29 or whatever

    Let me add that the committee discussions I imagined are entirely consistent with perhaps a dozen meetings of professorial and director of research selection committe meetings I chaired or participated in.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  557. Ron Unz says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Another possible explanation for the “purge” was the well established practice in major legal, accounting and consultancy firms of an up or out rule.

    Okay, let’s consider a few facts:

    (1) Taylor had been teaching at Oxford with enormous popularity for 25 years when his book came out in 1961.

    (2) The Washington Post described him as “Britain’s most prominent living historian” and his book was lavishly praised on both sides of the Atlantic, including by The New Statesman and World Politics, quickly becoming an international best-seller.

    (3) However, certain groups did not like what he was saying, and they provoked a storm of controversy. He was fired by Oxford the following year.

    (4) The very first sentence of his New York Times obituary reads: “He was abruptly dismissed as a lecturer at Oxford University in 1962” and goes on to indicate that he was fired because of the controversy surrounding his book. His Wikipedia page says the same thing.

    (5) Despite this absolutely overwhelming evidence and the verdict of the NYT, you seem to be saying that Taylor’s dismissal by Oxford was merely a “coincidence.”

    (6) In my long article, I cited eight or ten other high-ranking academics and journalists who had also been previously purged for saying roughly the same things as Taylor. Presumably, you are arguing that all those other purges were also purely “coincidental.”

    I think all of this strongly reinforces my suggestion that you are desperately clinging to any possible straw of an argument to avoid the humiliation of admitting to yourself that you had spent your entire life entirely believing the most ridiculous sort of historical propaganda.

  558. @Ron Unz

    ‘…I think all of this strongly reinforces my suggestion that you are desperately clinging to any possible straw of an argument to avoid the humiliation of admitting to yourself that you had spent your entire life entirely believing the most ridiculous sort of historical propaganda.’

    Now, Ron. And you were doing so well up to this point.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz