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YouGov inquired in 2017 about the perceived morality of ten different personal behaviors. The percentages who deemed them to be “morally wrong” (as opposed to “morally acceptable”), by age cohort:

On six of the ten behaviors–birth control, divorce, premarital sex, assisted suicide, gambling, and drinking alcohol–zoomers (and younger millennials) are the least morally permissive age cohort. Zoomers and millennials are modestly more morally accepting of homosexuality and of open marriages–the two things are related–and there is no discernible age pattern on abortion and weed.

 
• Category: Culture/Society, Ideology • Tags: Generational storm, GSS, Morality 
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  1. Talha says:

    Wow, looking at some of those numbers and just judging things relatively. My reaction – assuming the numbers reflect reality accurately – to the newer generation:

    Peace.

    • Agree: Rosie, 216
    • Replies: @Rosie
  2. YouGov inquired in 2017 about the perceived morality of ten different personal behaviors. The percentages who deemed them to be “morally wrong” (as opposed to “morally acceptable”), by age cohort:

    Some of the Zoomer Groypers are coming to the correct understanding that the actions and intentions of the Republican Party ruling class and Conservative Inc. are IMMORAL and they aren’t going to accept them any longer.

    Some of the Zoomers are directly calling out sovereignty-sapping, job-killing free trade deals and nation-wrecking mass legal immigration and mass illegal immigration and these Zoomers are starting to get a lean and hungry look at the rancid frauds in Conservatism Inc. and the repulsive treasonites in the Republican Party ruling class.

    The Zoomers are like the animals who sense a storm or some natural cataclysm coming and they may be trying to keep their minds and their spirits and their souls clear and ready for action because something wicked this way comes.

    Jaden McNeil is a Zoomer who has started up a group to challenge Conservatism Inc. and here is a bit of an article that describes his efforts:

    “Increasingly, the interests of Americans are overlooked by our globalist ruling class, which is more concerned with looting the country than governing justly,” McNeil’s announcement continued. “To make things worse, Conservatism Inc. has brainwashed many students into believing that globalist policies — particularly free trade and mass immigration — constitute conservatism, when they clearly do not.”

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/01/former-tpusa-chapter-president-jaden-mcneil-launches-new-america-first-student-organization/

    • Replies: @anonymous
  3. Given my eyes and my lap top screen I am unable to differentiate between the color assigned to 18-29 and that assigned to 65+.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Audacious Epigone
  4. neutral says:

    How many of these “zoomers” are white? It could just be that a large percentage of the people being questioned here are deemed American but they came from third world countries with different moral views.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
  5. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    Cue 216 fretting about a Neo-Victorian Feminist Consensus.

  6. Leopold says:

    More likely explanation :

    YouGov polls in general are pure garbage.

  7. “Zoomers and millennials are modestly more morally accepting of homosexuality and of open marriages.”

    That’s too bad.

    ————————————-

    “On six of the ten behaviors–birth control, divorce, premarital sex, assisted suicide, gambling, and drinking alcohol–zoomers (and younger millennials) are the least morally permissive age cohort.”

    Good for them . . .

  8. Talha says:
    @WorkingClass

    18-29 is the left-most bar and 65+ is the right-most bar.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @WorkingClass
  9. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Leopold

    More likely explanation :

    YouGov polls in general are pure garbage.

    Yep.

  10. Some Guy says:

    The study also says that 20% of 18-29 year olds consider interracial marriage wrong, compared to 17% for 30-44 year olds. Whites are about as opposed to interracial marriage as the other races.

    Morally wrong according to blacks/whites:
    Birth control 21%/9%
    Divorce 36%/25%
    Premarital Sex 48%/32%
    Drinking alcohol 30%/15%

    Blacks are a lot more conservative than whites on these issues on paper at least.

  11. There’s just something weird to me to see numbers from 20-somethings–44% pre-martial sex is “morally wrong” but only 41% find homosexual relations “morally wrong”.

    I realize there’s no logical contradiction. But from any traditional viewpoint all homosexual relations would are inherently pre-martial.

    Hollyweird’s homoganda has clearly done it’s work in this cohort. But the weird thing is that Hollyweird also routinely makes falling into bed a very casual affair as well.

    Apparently there are a some young Christians who believe homosexuality is blessed by God under “marriage” and all good.

  12. @neutral

    How many of these “zoomers” are white? It could just be that a large percentage of the people being questioned here are deemed American but they came from third world countries with different moral views.

  13. anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:
    @Charles Pewitt

    Notice what’s floating in the punch bowl:

    “ .. affirming the vision laid out by President Trump in his inaugural address.”

    Why would anyone wishing to effect change needlessly identity with a politician hated by half the country from the get go, who has since alienated many of the other half who believed his lies?

    Sounds like dissidence designed to fail.

  14. @Leopold

    One confounding issue here is the use of “morally wrong”.

    I’m a fairly conservative guy, who has lived a very conventional–marriage and children–life. But i don’t think most of these things are always “morally wrong”. I just think they are generally bad for you.

    Homosexuality is fundamentally disordered–a bug. (We still don’t precisely know the cause.) And certainly the male homosexual lifestyle is one worst things you can do.

    Pre-martial sex–or at least sex with someone who is not your future spouse–interferes with the sexual bonding–at least for women–that keeps couples together. (It shows up clearly in the divorce statistics.) Bad idea. But premartial sex with someone you are committed to? I would counsel the discipline to wait–or perhaps “just getting married!”–but i can’t say i’d call it “morally wrong”.

    Divorce. Well that depends. There are legitimate causes. But a lot of divorces are willful and unnecessary–selfish.

    Smoking dope. That’s just stupid. But morally wrong only in the sense of wasting the potential the good Lord has given you.

    Drinking alcohol … let me take another sip of Southern Comfort, while i ponder that. Don’t be a drunk. Don’t drink and drive. Don’t drink to excess. And if you’re drinking so that it affects your duties–family, career–then yes, “morallly wrong”.

    Birth control? That’s actually a good thing for most people. But yeah, for intelligent healthy married white women … our race is dying, stop being so selfish and have some babies! So for them, sure “morally wrong”.

    Anyway, i’m pretty conservative and vote “bad idea” on almost all these things. But i’m not sure these sort of polls capture that.

  15. @Charles Pewitt

    Damn minorities, ruining our … uh … tolerance of LGBTQATTIP+ people and premarital sex!

  16. This *kind of* lines up with what I’ve seen.

    I’ve mentioned before how Boomer and Gen X parents push degeneracy on their own children as a means to live vicariously – a second youth for them, if you will. But Gen Z is not living nearly as crazy as the older generations.

    Here is a conversation I heard between a pair of white 19 year old boys last weekend:
    “Are you drinking tonight?”
    “Nah, I’m driving home. You?”
    “Nah, I have work early tomorrow”

    Would you ever have heard Boomers saying this in the 70s? No way.

    From what I’ve seen: Fashion consciousness is way up. Drinking is way down. Weed use is up but not as widespread as the media portrayals. Sex is down for sure. Depression, anxiety, loneliness, etc… way, way up even for wealthy or good looking people.

    Most of these young white people are pretty lost. I wouldn’t say they’re social conservatives; they’re just drifting through space. I’m fortunate to have a found a community where drinking, premarital sex, and drug use is low and fashion awareness is somewhat high. However mental illness is severely affecting even religious young people.

    For the Boomers… Party like it’s 1974, hell yeah, let the good times roll. And Dwante Shakrone is going to win the Super Sports Ball Tournament next weekend!! Like , yeah! As long as you’re happy!

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @Curmudgeon
  17. Brett says:
    @Charles Pewitt

    The source AE shows also breaks down the differences by race. At a glance, it looks like all of the “conservatism” of the Zoomers is driven by racial change.

  18. Concerned about the shift in demographics —

    immigration violations —

  19. @Some Guy

    There’s the polls, and there’s reality. Something like 3/4 of black families are without a father in the house. Oh, and they don’t make Mad Dog 20/20 for White people.

  20. @AnotherDad

    A.D., I’m surprised you left out the very thing I was going to write about, with this point. Gambling – morally wrong or not, unless you really do it for entertainment only, it is kind of stupid. I was in a convenience store 2 days back and had 2 people in line ahead of me playing the idiotic lottery. (IT’S FOR THE CHILDREN!) Get the hell out of the way, lose your money at the back of the store, and let me get my gas, Gatorade, and Donette Gems, bitchez!

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  21. Ian Smith says:

    I’m an older Millenial and I can’t believe that close to half of under-30s believe pre-marital sexy is wrong. Until I see some more studies backing this up, I’m going to assume that something is amiss with this poll.

  22. @AnotherDad

    Your stance on alcohol makes good sense … and applies equally well to marijuana.

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    , @AceDeuce
  23. MBlanc46 says:
    @RadicalCenter

    I thought the same thing. I’d like to hear AD’s reasoning.

  24. Jay Fink says:

    I was buying sheets and two college age women were also in the aisle. One of them pointed to red sheets and said she would never buy those because they are “too promiscuous”. Young women wouldn’t have talked that way 20-30 years ago. I think there is a puritanism movement with young people mixed with economic liberalism.

  25. It takes about two generations after a successful ideologically motivated coup (such as the ’60s counterculture was in America) for things to start normalizing again. Even if the revolution is never officially repudiated, people just move on. The old catch phases no longer motivate, and the old “terrors” no longer terrify. Common sense, briefly imprisoned in the dungeon by usurpatious vanity, returns to resume its ancient lordship. There can be no very long-lived fanaticism, for the issues of life weigh against it.

    One should not hope herein, though, for a restoration of the great days of the West. The damage to that civilization is too far advanced, and mortal. The significant point is that, in those small green patches where life is advancing, it is doing so in spite of and against the West, not in it and through it.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Difference Maker
  26. Nodwink says:

    It’s worth remembering that someone born in the year 2000 has only ever known a world of Islamist terrorism, Middle East wars, stagnant wages, global financial instability, and constant anxiety over environmental degradation.

    This type of environment would, in my opinion, create people who are more conservative. On the other hand, I did see surveys from the time of the Vietnam War which showed younger people as some of the war’s strongest supporters. Maybe the idea of youthful libertines versus crusty conservatives is just another lazy stereotype.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @nebulafox
  27. @WorkingClass

    I’m unsatisfied with the color scheme by age. The youngest are the greenest in life, the oldest have grey hair. Open to suggestions that cover at least four age cohorts.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  28. @Leopold

    “pure garbage” is extreme hyperbole. They ask interesting questions that push the PC boundaries. So what if they lean left? So does Pew Research, but they similarly put together interesting surveys.

  29. @AnotherDad

    The sketch emerging among Gen Z is something like this:

    – More accepting of embracing identity than any generation before them, by a long shot. That manifests itself in ways the zeitgeist celebrates–LGBTQETC–but also in ways it does not, like trad Catholicism and positive white identity.

    – Socially conservative on lifestyle behaviors relative to previous generations when those generations were the same age. This shows up in lower hard drug usage, less drinking, less casual sex, less petty crime, etc.

    So those two things make sense if it is granted that homosexuality is acceptable and functionally no different that heterosexuality when it comes to relationship dynamics.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  30. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    However mental illness is severely affecting even religious young people.

    I’m skeptical of the idea that there’s been some epidemic of mental illness. How does a previously healthy person “catch” one of these mental illnesses?

    I think it’s more likely that either (a) earlier generations suffered just as much from whatever is now being called mental illness, but they were quieter about it whereas Gen Z is more willing to talk about it, or (b) Gen Z sufferers are only imagining suffering from mental illness — Gen Z, having heard more about mental illness, is simply more likely to describe whatever problems they’re having in the language of ‘mental illness.’

    • Replies: @A123
    , @Feryl
  31. @Audacious Epigone

    – Socially conservative on lifestyle behaviors relative to previous generations when those generations were the same age. This shows up in lower hard drug usage, less drinking, less casual sex, less petty crime, etc.

    Social psychologist Jean Twenge’s book “iGen – Why Today’s Superconnected Kids Are Growing Up Less Rebellious, More Tolerant, Less Happy — And Completely Unprepared For Adulthood” has plenty of graphs showing this. BUT, I think it’s important to point out that the differences between Gen Z [what Twenge calls iGen – which didn’t catch on] and earlier generations are not night and day. In most cases, the differences is only about 5-15%.

    For example, the percentage of 8th-12th graders who answered neutral, mostly agree or agree to:

    “Do not enjoy life” – rose from what I eyeball as an average of 23% from 1991-2011 to 29% in 2015

    “My life is not useful” – rose from 26% to 31%

    “Can’t do anything right” – rose from 31% to 37%

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  32. @Nodwink

    global financial instability

    Someone born in 2000 would have been 8 or 9 years old during the GFC.

    How aware of economics and financial markets were you at the same age?

  33. Zoomers’ parents are themselves mostly relatively young, and therefore grew up steeped in clown world

    To have still met and married and had children suggests that they are particularly resilient to the zeitgeist and relatively conservative

    Millenials on the other hand are the spawn of the Boomers, and, no surprise, are the gayest generation

    P. S. I think that while these age boundaries (18-29, 30-44 etc) are useful, they are used here by convention and do not adequately capture societal developments.

    It would be better to shift the boundaries to break out the cohorts by “generation”, ie Zoomers, Millenials, X, Boomers, etc

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @Feryl
  34. Nodwink says:

    I do remember the 1987 crash quite vividly, though I only had a vague inkling of how financial markets worked. I did take a keen interest in politics, from around the age of 7.

    My point is that someone born in 2000 has never lived through a sustained period of optimism. I grew up with Gorbachev and Glasnost, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the prosperity of the 90s, talk of the “Global Village,” and the end of history. We really did think we had it made.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  35. @anonymous

    Why would anyone wishing to effect change needlessly identity with a politician hated by half the country from the get go, who has since alienated many of the other half who believed his lies?

    Sounds like dissidence designed to fail.

    That part struck a sour note with me, I’ll admit.

    Better to hear the Barra MacNeils in concert playing traditional Scottish music out of Nova Scotia than read that discordant part from Jaden McNeil about “…affirming the vision laid out by President Trump in his inaugural address.”

    To be perhaps overly generous, that could mean that they recognize that President Trump has not fully lived up to his words as he gave the inaugural speech and they are gently holding Trump’s feet to the fire.

    I think Trump and the entirety of the Republican Party must be crushed in November and the only exception to that is Jeff Sessions in Alabama.

    Trump and the Republican Party are evil and immoral and they are pushing for the USA to be flooded with mass legal immigration “in the largest numbers ever.”

    Trump and the rancid Republican Party are refusing to deport the upwards of 30 million illegal alien invaders in the USA.

    Trump and the treasonous Republican Party politicians are donor whore slaves to Shelly Adelson and other Jew billionaires and Trump and the Republican Party are putting the interests of Israel ahead of the interests of the USA.

    Turnabout being fair play, I would hope when this new campus conservative group has an open meeting that some young people ask some tough questions of Jaden McNeil and his people about their unwarranted devotion to fat ass baby boomer treasonite Trump and the rancid politician whores in the Republican Party.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  36. @Audacious Epigone

    Green, light blue (c0llar), white (collar), grey (beards)?  Black background?

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  37. A123 says:
    @silviosilver

    I’m skeptical of the idea that there’s been some epidemic of mental illness. How does a previously healthy person “catch” one of these mental illnesses?

    It would not be surprising that leftist thinking causes mental illness. The brain is very flexible, but trying to hold mutually exclusive concepts as absolute truths cannot be good for proper function.

    For example:
    — All races are equal, diversity is celebrated.
    — It is all whitey’s fault.

    Or:
    — All religions, even no religion, must be embraced and accepted.
    — The evil Jews did it.

    The surprise is that so few Left Globalists are mentally ill after intentionally damaging their brains with irreconcilable ‘facts’.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    , @Saint Louis
  38. @A123

    I’m inclined to agree with you.  The constant self-censorship to avoid seeing contradictions, the doublethink required to exercise crimestop to avoid a “microaggression”, cannot help but be stressful.

    To heal these people (if they CAN be healed), we first have to make the cognitive dissonance hurt so badly that their choices are to break the mental habits or die trying.

    • LOL: A123
  39. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    Here is a conversation I heard between a pair of white 19 year old boys last weekend:
    “Are you drinking tonight?”
    “Nah, I’m driving home. You?”
    “Nah, I have work early tomorrow”

    Would you ever have heard Boomers saying this in the 70s? No way.

    Here’s a conversation from a 17 year old teen the 60s, when the drinking age was 21:
    Me: Can I borrow the car tonight?
    Dad: Have you washed and cleaned it yet?
    Me: Yes.
    Dad: Will you be drinking?
    Me: No
    Dad: OK, but be home by midnight (weekends, Sun-Thurs 11:00PM)

    This was the norm for me and everyone I knew, and we did the same with our kids. So, yes, Boomers were saying that in the 70s. Sure some of us drank and went to work, but none of us called in sick because we didn’t feel like going. We dragged our asses in and suffered through the day.
    Can you imagine millenials doing that?

  40. iffen says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    One should not hope herein, though, for a restoration of the great days of the West.

    What? Then what was that Renaissance thingy all about?

  41. @anonymous

    Trump’s agenda is more popular than Trump. Dissidents who have half the country with an open ear out of the gate are in a great position.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Corvinus
  42. @Achmed E. Newman

    They don’t call it the ignorance tax for nothing.

  43. Corvinus says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    “Trump’s agenda is more popular than Trump.”

    Except it’s not Trump’s agenda, it is an agenda touted by his handlers that has been used before by politicians in the 1850’s, 1920’s, and 1950’s.

    “Dissidents who have half the country with an open ear out of the gate are in a great position.”

    That half of the country has already heard the message before. Great for a young man to form an organization that represents his ideals.

    But here is an interesting nugget from Charles Pewitt’s source–“I’m excited about Jaden McNeil’s launch of America First Students because young people who understand the existential threat of mass migration to our country and their futures desperately need a voice. The GOP donor class has poured tens of millions of dollars into campus front groups like YAF and TPUSA that promote ruinous policies and demonize true America First-ers instead of defending them,” Michelle Malkin told TGP. “Last fall’s ‘Groyper Wars’ exposed the intellectual dishonesty and brittle weakness of Conservatism Inc’s ‘brand ambassadors’ on the bread-and-circuses circuit. AFS poses a similarly disruptive threat because dissident students who have left TPUSA and YAF in disgust now have a choice. Dan Crenshaw’s empty threats and Ben Shapiro’s smug smears have not extinguished the young nationalist flame. They’ve ignited it.”

    First, isn’t it ironic that an anchor baby that Malkin is touting the threat of “mass migration”?

    Second, isn’t the Groyper’s headed by Nick Fuentes, whom Malkin had just endorsed as one of the rising stars of Conservatism? So where does her loyalty lay?

    Third, it would appear that there are competing ideologies among the Right for the souls of youth. McNeil is going to have to out-market, out-propagandize, and maybe even outspend his opponent.

    I wish them well.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  44. Corvinus says:
    @AnotherDad

    “But premartial sex with someone you are committed to? I would counsel the discipline to wait–or perhaps “just getting married!”–but i can’t say i’d call it “morally wrong”.”

    So what about the Bible prohibition? Is the Good Book just too old fashioned?

  45. nebulafox says:

    On divorce, the thing I’d stress is that a lot of them experienced personally as children what divorces are like on all involved. I’m not sure you’d get a lot of people to classify it as “morally wrong”, but I do think as a result of bearing the fallout from en masse no-fault divorce, Generations Y and Z are going to be a lot less casual about it.

    The thing I’m primarily concerned about with my generation is less our social attitudes or our politics, per se (though the pro-authoritarian bent from older Millennials is a bit disturbing), but rather our resilience and ability to function as adults. Learning stuff in your 20s that you should have learned a decade earlier has some deep costs.

    • Replies: @anon
  46. nebulafox says:
    @Nodwink

    I’m not sure “conservative” is accurate, especially economically. People who know that they are likely to be worse off than their parents, no matter what they try or how hard they work-with worse health care, worse retirement, worse wages, worse security, and generally more work for less rewards-are simply never going to subscribe to GOP economic orthodoxy, as it currently stands. Some of that is undoubtedly coddled expectations, at least within the upper-middle class: particularly when looking at the grand scheme of history. But that doesn’t change the fact that many of the charges aimed at the “Boomer”/early X generation have a basis in reality, including the argument that they basically mortgaged our future.

    What I do think is noticeable is that this is a relatively non-Whiggish generation, which stands out in American history. It has always been strongly embedded in America’s national psychology that history is progressing positively, in a mostly linear way. There will be some bumps and slow-downs on the way, but nothing more. Even catastrophes like the Great Depression didn’t manage to dent this faith with previous generations. But regardless of whether the young person is right or left wing, you don’t see much of that with people born after the USSR fell. This is something that starkly contrasts with our parents.

    • Replies: @Feryl
  47. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Difference Maker

    P. S. I think that while these age boundaries (18-29, 30-44 etc) are useful, they are used here by convention and do not adequately capture societal developments.

    It would be better to shift the boundaries to break out the cohorts by “generation”, ie Zoomers, Millenials, X, Boomers, etc

    Both generations and age cohorts are essentially artificial and abstract. Generations are a social construct! There isn’t actually any such thing as a Zoomer or a Millennial.

    Looking at differences between these groups can be interesting but you always have to bear in mind that they’re artificial and abstract and not particularly meaningful.

  48. @Corvinus

    Indeed, Trump picked up several $100 bills laying on the sidewalk–trade, immigration, foreign wars, political correctness–that no one else would pick up because they were afraid their puppet masters would have them sniped if they dared try.

    McNeil is the founder, Fuentes the leader, and Malkin the grizzled veteran of the America First campus group.

    They don’t have a chance in hell to outspend their opponents. Out-market and out-meme, though, are both in the realm of possibility.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  49. anon[275] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox

    On divorce, the thing I’d stress is that a lot of them experienced personally as children what divorces are like on all involved.

    Something like 40% of marriages end in divorce in the first 10 years. Back of the envelope means that 30% to 40% of college students came from busted homes, with Mom living one place and Dad another place – makes school breaks like Thanksgiving and Christmas complicated.

    Depends on how old everyone was when it happened. It’s ugly to go home at Christmas and get told that your parents are divorcing. It’s worse in high school. It’s even worse in mid high and downright ugly in primary. Kindergarten? I think that a lot of BPD’s are created by divorce when they are 5 years old.

    Gets more fun when someone marries, and has the first grandchild. What to do? Go see “her Mom” and stepdad, “her dad” and his girlfriend, “his Mom” and her “roommate”, “his Dad” who lives alone? All of them in different towns?

    Learning stuff in your 20s that you should have learned a decade earlier has some deep costs.

    Truth.

    Divorce sucks. For the kids it’s like being in the back seat when a really ugly car accident happens, only worse because it keeps on going. and going.

    You Boomers and X’rs who get pissed at Millennials and Zoomers for their quirks – remember who it is that screwed them over, ok?

    • Thanks: Talha
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  50. @anon

    … remember who it is that screwed them over, ok?

    The feminists and the divorce/family court industry. Yep, how can I forget?

    • Agree: dfordoom
  51. @Audacious Epigone

    I’d called it the tax on stupidity, but then I would, right? ;-}

    (Your term works fine too.)

  52. “You Boomers and X’rs who get pissed at Millennials and Zoomers for their quirks – remember who it is that screwed them over, ok?”

    You need to spell out what you think are quirks. I don’t think quirks is the issue. Nor would I dismiss a contention that my generation, whatever generation that is failed to educate them, on what it means to be a citizen of this country.

    And I would further grant that the supposed genius of attacking education and engaging in tactics to dissuade from conservatives from the fields of the same was a wise choice.

    However, in some areas as indicated by the subtle indicators of assessments such as the gss, last noted here — that the following generations have seen the rot of the past generations and aren’t buying it. Some are concerned that singles are having less relations, I disagree, that’s a healthy sign in my view. Now if they would just get to that next step of abstaining or living celibately until married — that would be a U turn from the silliness of the 7o’s worth celebrating. (I am not talking about being an incel)

    ——————————————

    But that haven’t figured that their best way forward is to some king of national loyalty — that’s disappointing.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  53. @AnotherDad

    Vices – using drugs, gambling, drinking, etc – become morally wrong when they interfere with an individual’s ability to care for their immediate family.

    It’s not an absolute distinction but makes a pretty good reference point.

    Practicing homosexuality is antithetical to a healthy civilization as it promotes the degradation of children and rejects reproduction. So yeah, immoral is putting it lightly.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  54. Feryl says: • Website
    @nebulafox

    People who know that they are likely to be worse off than their parents, no matter what they try or how hard they work-with worse health care, worse retirement, worse wages, worse security, and generally more work for less rewards-are simply never going to subscribe to GOP economic orthodoxy, as it currently stands.

    The white early Millennials who voted for Trump, or much less likely, any other Republican recently, only did so because Trump is not a Republican. . Trump for years derided the post-Reagan stock market boom as reckless and built on suspect foundations, called out our idiotic foreign policy (“democracy building” and unholy alliances across the Middle East and Latin America since the 80’s ), and lambasted the GHW Bush guided NAFTA atrocity that destroyed what was left of America’s New Deal era middle class paradise. Millennials are never going to be “traditional” Republicans, since the dominant neo-lib faction of “conservatives” is so gutless, corrupt, and mentally ill. All of our problems do not lie in “big government” or labor unions. Unlike most of our parents, we didn’t grow up in a middle class paradise in which it was possible to sympathize with business owners. Nope, we grew up with Enron, Clear Channel, Amazon, Disney etc. essentially running our government. Vast “private sector” actors conspiring to make huge monopolies and drive up record high corporate profits. And we also grew up with massive levels of Pentagon pork, against vast evidence that the military is as crooked as any other institution we now have. Need I also mention wide open borders, cheered on by spineless idolators of the decadent rich like Dan Lungren, Republican of California, who did nothing to legally fight the judically mandanted striking down of the proposition which denied illegal aliens many publicly provided benefits. And this during a time when there was bi-partisan (!) support of immigration restriction. Face it, Reaganites, it was your party’s descent into the maelstrom of unconditional support of business owners in the mid-1970’s that blew open the borders, that incentivized profiteering above all else (including the very existence of traditional Western culture), and eventually destroyed the middle class and general family and economic stability.

    Some of that is undoubtedly coddled expectations, at least within the upper-middle class: particularly when looking at the grand scheme of history. But that doesn’t change the fact that many of the charges aimed at the “Boomer”/early X generation have a basis in reality, including the argument that they basically mortgaged our future.

    Sure, evidence of mounting corruption and decadence piles up, and yet they still say that what their great grandparent, grandparents, and parents were doing 100, 80, 60, 40 years ago is the reason they can’t fix things. They’ve dominated congress and corporate boards since the early 1990’s, yet it’s never their fault that we have wide open borders, an ever rising deficit, historically bad levels of partisan bickering, NINJA loans, obviously narcissistic and greedy robber barons, and so on.

  55. @dfordoom

    We may consider that Zoomers have grown up never knowing a world without internet

    For that matter Boomers were the first generation with mass television and color television, and it corrupted them.

    Also, we must imagine what it was like to be surrounded by clueless peers, a literal baby boom, with vastly outnumbered adults. “Never trust anyone over 30”. They grew up on TV and mass media; were raised by them.

    And we may consider that if truly everyone reproduced, then there was little selection, or quality control.

    Of course, they are the ‘elders’ now, so I don’t blame
    for the conceit of thinking they know better than previous generations

  56. dfordoom says: • Website
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    Practicing homosexuality is antithetical to a healthy civilization as it promotes the degradation of children and rejects reproduction. So yeah, immoral is putting it lightly.

    It also causes massive health problems that they expect other people to pay for.

    Vices – using drugs, gambling, drinking, etc – become morally wrong when they interfere with an individual’s ability to care for their immediate family.

    Agreed, but I’d also say that vices become morally wrong when the practitioners of such vices start trying to convert others to their vice. That’s my big beef with the drug culture – it’s been aggressively promoted and glamourised. That’s also my big beef with the homosexual lobby – the unbelievably aggressive promotion of the homosexual lifestyle, particularly targeted at kids and at the vulnerable.

    There are people who are into other deviant sexual practices that are pretty weird and disturbing but I don’t have a problem with them because they aren’t trying to make converts. For example I have zero problem with foot fetishists. They’re seriously weird but they really do just want to be left alone and they don’t want to teach our five-year-olds all about foot fetishism.

  57. AceDeuce says:
    @Some Guy

    You must not know many blakpypo.

    On paper, Communism is the perfect system.

    On paper, Christie Brinkley and Rosie O’Donnell are both middle aged women living in New York.

    • Agree: Twodees Partain
  58. @dfordoom

    Use very real events to define generations.

    Depression, Mass media, world wars, internet, even Watergate and terrorist attacks; these will not fall neatly into arbitrary age brackets

  59. Corvinus says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    “Indeed, Trump picked up several $100 bills laying on the sidewalk–trade, immigration, foreign wars, political correctness–that no one else would pick up because they were afraid their puppet masters would have them sniped if they dared try.”

    As a marketing ploy to get elected. He is a showman. Besides, Trump has his own puppet masters. Do not be naive to think otherwise. Look at his effort to start trouble in Iran. Unz.com authors have had a field day with Trump’s hypocrisy–trust the “Deep State’s” intelligence to blow to bits a supposed imminent threat to American national security.

    “McNeil is the founder, Fuentes the leader, and Malkin the grizzled veteran of the America First campus group.”

    Is Malkin even a Heritage American?

    “They don’t have a chance in hell to outspend their opponents. Out-market and out-meme, though, are both in the realm of possibility.”

    Let me rephrase–McNeil will have to out-wit his opponent Fuentes. They are both competing for the same (white) American. That is what I was saying. McNeil and Fuentes are not buddy-buddy. Malkin is playing both sides to the middle here.

  60. Feryl says: • Website
    @Difference Maker

    Millenials on the other hand are the spawn of the Boomers, and, no surprise, are the gayest generation

    P. S. I think that while these age boundaries (18-29, 30-44 etc) are useful, they are used here by convention and do not adequately capture societal developments.

    It would be better to shift the boundaries to break out the cohorts by “generation”, ie Zoomers, Millenials, X, Boomers, etc

    Um, thing is, there is a lot of over-lap between generations. If anything, grouping in late X-ers with Millennials, and late Boomers with early X-ers, is probably the right thing to do. After all, if you were born in 1946 you may have had kids born in say, 1966. Generational traits don’t suddenly appear one year, and completely go away with the last cohort of that generation. Generations exist on a continuum; with differences apparent as you move from the earliest born people to the latest born people within a generation.

    Even Strauss and Howe admitted this they said that deciding when a generation begins and ends is very subjective, and depends on the criteria used. For example, they used UCLA’s 1980 freshmen survey to conclude that 1961 births were the first X-ers due to this cohort citing the importance of financial security ahead of “living a meaningful life” on the survey. They also said that in their own interviews, 1961 births professed a lot more self loathing and alienation from society than those born in 1960, but still the 1960 births were more alienated than the people born in 1946, although Strauss and Howe considered the 1943-1960 cohort to be the cultural and political baby boomers. Strauss and Howe gave 1982 as the first Millennial birth year, because that marked the start of a trend toward greater social protection of minors; the first Millennial celebrities were infants and toddlers whose endangerment in the 80’s sparked outrage, new laws (often named after Millennials) designed to protect kids, and widespread media coverage of child abuse in most of the 80’s and 90’s. And Strauss and Howe’s prediction of America’s vices and rancor aging with the Boomers and X-ers has proven to be largely true. The LBJ-Carter years conditioned the young adults/teens/children of that era to basically want Mad Max anything goes chaos instead of the stultifying faceless bureaucratic order and moral policing of the New Deal and Great Society era.

    If you really want to be pedantic, you could break birth cohorts down into half-decade increments, which I tend to think works best. But it’s kind of a pain in the ass to people when they can’t generalize about people born in say, a twenty year span. Even though realistically, how are people born in 1947 going to have the same traits as someone born in 1963? They won’t. They will have some commonalities, but certainly will also have some differences. For one thing, most decades tend to be dividable into two halves. Someone born in 1955 can remember the early 60’s, but someone born in 1963 won’t be able to. So I think that being of an impressionable age during a certain half decade has a powerful effect.

    • Replies: @Difference Maker
  61. Feryl says: • Website
    @silviosilver

    Rates of self-harm are up among teenagers (they are up among all age brackets, but the biggest increase in the 2010’s has been among teenagers ). So it’s not just a matter of people self-reporting according to fashion. Kinda like how white male Millennials don’t report higher rates of same sex partners than older generations do. So we know that same sex attraction is still the same among males no matter how hard some may try to “popularize it”. But genuine depression and anxiety is in fact, more “popular” now than it was 30 or 40 years ago. But that’s your society on neo-liberalism for 4-5 decades. It’s a sick and destabilizing ideology. Spoils for the big first world yuppie winners and some of the third world peasants, but a giant middle finger to the working classes of the formerly industrialized first world.

    I think that Gen Z has good reason to loathe late period neo-liberalism, and they want it to be over with. Later X-ers and Millennials are also fed up with it, since all the bullshit their parents told them about “hard work” and “America is still the greatest country” is well, bullshit and the younger generations know it by now.

  62. Vendetta says:
    @Corvinus

    McNeil and Fuentes are buddies. I went out to dinner with them in Florida before the counter-summit to TPUSA, and we all hung out afterwards. You have met none of these people, and are straight up talking out of your ass.

    It’s a very tight knit group, and they’re all much more interested in fighting their enemies than fighting each other. Shut up and learn from them.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  63. @AnotherDad

    Quite a sensible way of looking at these issues. Utilitarian, but utility is always an important consideration.

  64. @silviosilver

    Guess it would depend whether your parents lost jobs, lost the house, lost the car…& you lost your pocket money & the treats you were used to….

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  65. @Audacious Epigone

    I tend to agree with you about lotteries etc. However, there are nuances. Some people are obviously & ridiculously addicted, spending small fortunes a week. Others simply play one small game a week. I suspect its about “hope”. The hope that by some miracle one’s fortunes will change for the better…

    Lotteries are one thing — & poker machines are another. Those things are truly evil. In Australia (with the exception of West Australia ?) poker machines infest every pub & club. By “infest” I don’t mean a few machines, I mean 20, 30, 40 machines & upwards. It’s not difficult to find a pensioner dumping much of their fortnightly money into one of these hypnotic things.
    (Incidentally, “live music” ? More or less killed by “pokies” in the 90’s & naughties.)

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  66. @Intelligent Dasein

    I think a post six generation effect merits analysis, let’s say broadly, 150 years.

    Where no one more than 150 years later knows anyone (grandfather) who knew anyone (grandfatheer’s grandfather) who had first hand knowledge of the events

  67. @silviosilver

    I know someone who claimed his family went from Wall Street to homelessness because of that time

  68. Corvinus says:
    @Vendetta

    “McNeil and Fuentes are buddies. I went out to dinner with them in Florida before the counter-summit to TPUSA, and we all hung out afterwards.”

    Maybe you did, and maybe you didn’t. Of course, you didn’t address the problem–the acolytes of Fuentes, aka The Groypers, are not too fond of McNeil. Meanwhile, Malkin has sided with the Fuentes crew while also congratulating McNeil on his cause. So there she’s playing both sides. Who is she going to ultimately show fealty to?

    And, again, is she (and even Fuentes) “Heritage Americans”?

    “It’s a very tight knit group, and they’re all much more interested in fighting their enemies than fighting each other. Shut up and learn from them.”

    You haven’t been paying attention or you have your head in the sand. There remains a chasm between the “Alt-Right” and the “Alt-Light”.

    https://www.diggitmagazine.com/column/charlie-kirk-culture-war-groyper-trolls

    • Replies: @Vendetta
  69. @Feryl

    Tbh I think this is rather obvious. But as I am rather lazy and often sleepy, thank you for expositing on the matter

  70. The problem for Mr. Kirk is that the current executive has long strayed from the agenda that he was elected to represent.

    Mr. Fuentes, contends an ethos that is neither historically accurate regarding social issues and what they instruct or impact us about today of the past or present and has little conception of how to address matters related to the Constitution.

    Seems a bit rhetoric to fell good. The current executives issues with his constituency that criticizes his performance thus far is that “feel good” rhetoric is a might short of actual leadership and management decisions required for change. At the end of the day, despite being distracted — people care about words to action – integrity does not mean perfection, but its value to intent and supported behavior — invaluable.

  71. Vendetta says:
    @Corvinus

    There is no gap here. They are not alt-light and alt-right, they have the exact same ideas. They are both part of the same scene. They are just working on different fronts. Nick works through the Internet, Jaden is trying to take the battle to the campuses. You are inventing an entirely fictitious rivalry, to no constructive purpose.

    Help or stay out of their way. I’ve done my own share to contribute to the cause, see Episode 5 of Restoring Order or the American Populism channel on Telegram. How about yours?

  72. anonymous[184] • Disclaimer says:
    @Vendetta

    Help or stay out of their way.

    Help!? Corvinus wants to hinder them.

  73. anonymous[184] • Disclaimer says:
    @Charles Pewitt

    “…affirming the vision laid out by President Trump in his inaugural address.”

    And nothing about his achievements as president! This is definitely a criticism of Trump’s presidency.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  74. This is the first time I’ve ever seen anyone manage to quantify the almost stupendous degree of self-righteousness associated with the under-30 age cohort (of which the rush to condemn and “cancel” the unwoke is but as aspect thereof).

    I mean, it’d be awesome if they were upholding a new, rigorous moral standard. But we can see that’s not happening. Maybe it will start to happen later, if we’re very lucky, but it’s certainly not happening now. All we seem to have now is a lot of hypocrites who enjoy condemning others for failings they exhibit themselves, often in spades.

  75. @animalogic

    Yes, I guess it would. But since those were the experiences of only a small minority of people, I can’t see why they should characterize the views of an entire generation.

    • Replies: @animalogic
  76. @Vendetta

    They’re not just working on “different fronts”; they have different visions for the future and place different value on white interests.

    Corvinus is an anti-white race-denier anyway, so he’ll neither be helping nor getting out of the way.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  77. Corvinus says:
    @Vendetta

    “There is no gap here. They are not alt-light and alt-right, they have the exact same ideas.”

    Not according to Fuentes front, the Groypers.

    “You are inventing an entirely fictitious rivalry, to no constructive purpose.”

    No, I am reporting facts. Charlie Kirk is at the center of it. Now, why are avoiding responding to a simple question–are Malkin and Fuentes “Heritage Americans”?

    “I’ve done my own share to contribute to the cause, see Episode 5 of Restoring Order or the American Populism channel on Telegram.”

    Great, a lot of talk.

  78. Jason Liu says:

    I suspect this says more about old people than young people, the seniors are probably less judgmental because they’ve already done those things, or regret not doing them

  79. “On paper, Communism is the perfect system.”

    Not even on paper.

  80. Corvinus says:
    @silviosilver

    “They’re not just working on “different fronts”; they have different visions for the future and place different value on white interests.”

    Which is referred to as different fronts. Although, they are representing THEIR version of what white interests should be.

    “Corvinus is an anti-white race-denier anyway, so he’ll neither be helping nor getting out of the way.”

    I don’t hate my own kind, i.e. anti-white. But it’s easier for you to put me in that camp.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  81. @AnotherDad

    But the weird thing is that Hollyweird also routinely makes falling into bed a very casual affair as well.

    And unnecessarily so– there are so many other pretexts for an actress to disrobe.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  82. @Reg Cæsar

    I wish I could just give this a LOL… but Ron’s insane restriction on opinion-posts forces me to comment instead.

    Take that as you will.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  83. @Corvinus

    Which is referred to as different fronts.

    An army can fight on different fronts but have the same war goals. Alt-right and alt-lite don’t share the same war goals.

  84. @silviosilver

    “Small minority” ? I’m not so sure….

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  85. @dfordoom

    Exactly right. Generations are a family construct. It’s ridiculous to assign generation tags to people who were born within a range of years. In my own family of 7 siblings, two were born before 1946, three were born between ’46 and ’64 and two were born after ’65. That would mean that there were three generations within one generation of my family.

    Taking this false meme to the level of contrived polls is doubly silly.

  86. @EliteCommInc.

    Who are you responding to? Use the reply button already.

  87. @Mr. Rational

    Lately, I get the feeling that all of us who haven’t been awarded gold stars are unwelcome here. This is the only site I’ve ever seen that allows comments while restricting the number a participant is allowed, and has such a good siteware for comments while restricting the use of the features.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  88. “Lately, I get the feeling that all of us who haven’t been awarded gold stars are unwelcome here.”

    I am responding to you. Laugh.

    I would let that issue ride. Whatever is meant by excellent writing is not necessarily reflected in sound critical thinking. effective use of writing is important no doubt. But the ability to critically think through an issue is in my view more important.

    I wouldn’t be discouraged by someone else’s gold pin. Good for them . . . however, that doesn’t make them any more correct or astute or ethically sound.

  89. AaronB says:
    @Twodees Partain

    What are you limited to? I’m limited to 2 comments per hour, and 3 likes per 12 hour period 🙂

    I bet I got you beat.

    Ron Unz is trying to craft a politic tool against what he sees as the Jewish Establishment, so commenters that support this agenda will be privileged, and those who don’t, will be deplatformed.

    This was never about free speech or an interest in unusual ideas, but in the initial stages it was important to present it like that. Once the site gains traction, the usual political repression takes over. “Let a hundred flowers bloom” 🙂

    Ron Unz is neither pro-Muslim nor pro-white racism, but he is happy to use both as tools for attacking the Establishment, just as blacks were once used by earlier dissidents to attack the Establishment. When it becomes expedient, they will be discarded.

    This is the ordinary and expected way of the world – no need to be surprised or upset. Ron is a thoroughly political animal and a good strategist – he ran for office in California, and has always been heavily involved in various political activities. Anyone expecting a philosopher has not been paying attention.

    One unintended positive side-effect of Ron’s efforts is that on the margins of this site, if you are not too loud about it, eccentric and interesting individuals can still sort of hold a conversation 🙂

    And that in this political age where everything is political, who can ask for more? And who knows, even, how long that will last, as Ron’s agenda advances.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  90. @animalogic

    Well, if 10% of workers lost their jobs, it means 90% kept them. Seems like a small minority to me.

  91. @Corvinus

    I’m not hostile to the general angle you take here, as a skeptic asking a lot of cross-examination questions. But in this case you’re wrong. McNeil and Fuentes are friends, not rivals.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  92. @animalogic

    Yeah, distinctions are in order. With lottery, scratch off tickets are really the ignorance tax–they’re like slots, where lots of money can be burned through quickly with no prospect of life-changing winnings. Power Ball is less destructive. Pay a few bucks to daydream about what you’d do if you became a multimillionaire next week, check your tickets after the drawing some days later, sigh as you don’t win, and go on with your life. Pretty cheap entertainment, really.

  93. @Vendetta

    Btw, your ten point, IIRC, outline of American Nationalism (AmNat) is great.

  94. @anonymous

    Indeed, it sounds like a backhanded ‘compliment’.

  95. @AaronB

    Disagree. Ron’s primary desire is to digitize as much contrarianism and dissidence as he is able to. He’s doing yeoman’s work archiving old periodicals, etc. It takes most of his time even though it (currently) draws little traffic.

    Relatedly, he is interested in ensuring current thoughtful, perspicacious contrarianism and dissidence is not only given a platform today but also available for posterity.

    There are a lot of people who lazily assume Unz is free to operate with impunity. He isn’t. No one is. He, like everyone else running an operation of this size, is potentially vulnerable via domain registrar, DoS protection, etc. Having Fed posters and deranged lunatics swamping the comments is a good way to get the plug pulled.

    • Agree: John Arthur
    • Disagree: iffen, AaronB
  96. Corvinus says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    “But in this case you’re wrong. McNeil and Fuentes are friends, not rivals.”

    Not if the Groypers are confronting McNeil.

  97. @A123

    “…trying to hold mutually exclusive concepts as absolute truths cannot be good for proper function.

    For example:
    — All races are equal, diversity is celebrated.
    — It is all whitey’s fault.”

    Don’t forget “race doesn’t exist”.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational

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