RSS
A refreshingly stark story about a German couple living in Britain:
Frieda is 38 and is struggling to have a baby.
She got married in 2011, and started trying to conceive immediately. Eventually it became clear there was a problem.
“I actually had four rounds of IVF treatment and obviously none of them were successful. And after the third round the doctor said, ‘We doubt that your eggs are going to be any good and you probably need to consider going down the egg donation route.’ And she literally got up from her seat and said, ‘I’ll give you some time with your husband to discuss,’ and she walked out the room. And that was it.”
Frieda’s next step was to call organisations that might help her obtain a donor egg. One was a donation bank.
“They basically said, ‘We’re going to have to be honest with you, but we don’t have many German egg donors come forward.’ They told me straight and I appreciated the honesty rather than being sent on a goose chase.”
Frieda then cast her net further afield. A clinic in Spain offered her an egg donated by a Canadian. Many might think this was not a bad solution, but Frieda was not sure it would be right for her.
“My heritage is German. My grandparents on both sides of the family are both from Bavaria… it was important to me to at least have some cultural connection with the child, and I felt that if it was from a different heritage, I may not…”
She also felt that her family, which she says “has a big hang-up about who looks like who”, might discriminate against a child that they knew had come from a donor.
…
Dr Edmond Edi-Osagie, a reproductive medicine specialist in Cheshire says that there is “something cultural within the German community” that makes women reluctant to donate eggs.
“Any time I see a German woman over the age of 35 who walks through my clinic, the first thing I think about is, ‘Are they going to need donor eggs?’ My heart really sinks, because I know that it’s going to be a really difficult battle if they are,” he says.
…
Edi-Osagie has been to a number of German organisations and Lutheran churches to talk about the lack of donor eggs and the message always goes down well, he says.
“I get a line of people who wait to speak to me to give me their contact details and then I get my staff, over the following weeks, to try to contact all of those people – and unfortunately, almost invariably that’s where the trail ends,” he says.
As readers likely suspect, a few slight edits have been made from the original story.
Natasha’s, er, Frieda’s desires are perfectly healthy. To the extent that there is anything ‘wrong’ with her actions, it is that she waited until she was in her thirties–when upwards of 90% of her eggs were gone–to begin trying to conceive. That she wants a child with whom she shares a physical and cultural resemblance is, if not laudable, unobjectionable–in a sane world, anyway.
This honest presentation of a racially sensitive story is possible because it cannot be spun as being the fault of whites. It’s almost as if resentment and animosity are extracted, racial issues can be honestly and constructively discussed. Yeah, they say those are the words of a dreamer, but I’m not the only one!
English
Arabic
Chinese (Simplified)
Dutch
French
German
Hebrew
Hindi
Italian
Japanese
Korean
Persian
Polish
Portuguese
Russian
Spanish
Swedish
Turkish
Vietnamese
The problem with this sort of ‘find-replace’ from the original story is that it is not plausible that there could ever be a shortage of German egg donors.
Just like it is not plausible that there could be a shortage of black egg donors, except that ‘Afro-Caribbean’ is too small of a boutique subgroup (1.1%) to be easily found.
Plus, I thought that WNs always say that any black person who ever seeks an egg or sperm donor only ever wants a white donor. The original article proves that this is not the case.
AOC's boyfriend -- white male.
Illhan Omar's illicit lover -- white male.
Susan Rice's husband -- white male.
Halley Berry's baby daddy -- white male.
NYC mayor Deblasio -- his wife wanted a white male.
ETC.
How many Indian male / white female couples do you see? Not many. Do Chinese companies hire models from your tribe? Rarely, unless they are female Caucasiods. Must be emasculating. Enjoy your "WN" rage Elliot. Essentially every loser WN is still inherently better than you ... and women still want them more, which says a lot.
BTW, why do you allow this troll to post here? He contributes nothing, he monopolizes the top comment with an insult which derails the conversation, and he's using "WN" as a slur on whites in general (which would seem to be an oblique violation of your own posting policy). True, I use "Ansari" as a counter insult ... but I wouldn't have to if his comments were moderated in the first place. Any use of the term "WN" that is not germaine to the conversation should be removed. Moderate his posts, or I'll stop posting here. Others should follow suit.Replies: @Mark G., @eah
According to the story, there were only 45 total black egg donors in 2017, 15 of whom were Afro-Caribbean, so the shortage is a real thing.
Re: the WN claim which I’ve not seen made anywhere, anyway we’re not WNs and that claim isn’t being made here.
The thing is, he is not wrong on the point of ease of access. There is no way German egg donors would be hard to find. Eggs can be shipped internationally too.
Just like the 'Afro-Caribbean' sob story was also phony. She can get donor eggs shipped from one of her selected countries, or use other black British (or British half-black) eggs.
Why So Many Women Travel to Denmark for Fertility Treatments
https://time.com/5491636/denmark-ivf-storkklinik-fertility/
The Brexit crisis nobody is talking about? Our need for Danish sperm
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-danish-sperm-banks-imports
The Serbian Women Who Want Danish Sperm Donors
https://www.newsweek.com/2015/03/20/serbian-women-who-want-danish-sperm-donors-313513.html
Women Are Now Pillaging Sperm Banks for Viking Babies
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3dx9nj/women-are-now-pillaging-sperm-banks-for-viking-babies
The men in the Charlottesville march were generally pretty good looking and healthy. They would have done more for the cause by donating sperm than participating in that foolish protest.
I shall respond to the fictional version:
Honestly, I sympathize with some of her feelings, but I think she is being too picky.
Germany is in the center of Europe. It doesn’t have a well-defined genetic population structure, when compared with its close neighbors. It can be hard to tell a German from a Dutchmen, or an Englishman.
The important thing for her to do, if she wants to preserve Germany is preferably to get a NW-European egg (or wider European egg, if that is not possible) and turn it into a child imbued with the German culture, to support the continuance of the existing German bio-culture. People who are true Germans will embrace this child, if they are sane.
If German women don’t want to donate eggs and refuse eggs other than German who cares not my problem.Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Audacious Epigone
Bavarians are Catholics and should not be participating in artificial conceptions – neither as donors nor as recipients.
I guess in the past, this would have been a reason for a wealthier couple to devote their time into adopting from a local German family or desperate mother that could not afford her new baby (or, out of shame left it at the doorstep of a church), but that is likely not the case anymore in Germany since the entire society is generally well to do and out-of-wedlock births are not a big deal.
Peace.
Germany is more of a political-ideological creation than an organically national one – as you likely know, Germans are genetically shifted toward their closest foreign neighbors.
Re: the WN claim which I've not seen made anywhere, anyway we're not WNs and that claim isn't being made here.Replies: @Thomm
Except that the comment immediately after yours (#3) is exactly that. So you were right for exactly 7 minutes, but not longer.
The thing is, he is not wrong on the point of ease of access. There is no way German egg donors would be hard to find. Eggs can be shipped internationally too.
Just like the ‘Afro-Caribbean’ sob story was also phony. She can get donor eggs shipped from one of her selected countries, or use other black British (or British half-black) eggs.
Consider how the borders of German Teutonic territory have changed over the centuries. Nation of Germany didn’t exist till 1866. I never did a 23&me. But my sister had 20%. FrenchGerman not French and German but French German on her’s.
If German women don’t want to donate eggs and refuse eggs other than German who cares not my problem.
Historically, there were few infertile women wanting to reproduce. Today; the number of older infertile women considering reproduction is greater than the number of natutally fertile females. German population pyramid evolution from 1910-2025https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kristin_Kistowski/publication/225645059/figure/fig2/AS:339596861820933@1457977609548/Population-pyramids-for-Germany-in-1910-2005-and-2025-The-data-for-1910-do-resemble-a.pngAlso I sincerely doubt the average German woman wants German eggs.Replies: @Svevlad
Correction 90% of a woman’s eggs aren’t gone by the 30s. Only 12 eggs a year are ripened and are lost or become a zygote.
She married at 29 and planned to get pregnant right away. German N European so let’s rightly assume menarche at 13. So when she married she’d been losing 12 eggs a year for 16 years.
A woman is born with approximately 450 eggs. 16 X 12 = 192. So when she married she had about 258 eggs left.
Hardly 90% eggs gone at age 30. Perhaps the author should have googled a little basic anatomy before he stated that 90% of a woman’s eggs are gone by 30.
If she hasn’t been able to get pregnant there’s something wrong. Since she and husband are looking for an egg, rather than a sperm donor, her reproductive system isn’t functioning. She’s still got about 150-160 eggs left.
.* That post is on my theory, maybe pretty obvious, that the strong negative emotions generated during women's periods are due to the sub-conscious mourning of the loss of these eggs/follicles. Just as with men's sexual appetite that does not consciously bring up ANY thoughts of babies, perhaps it's an analogy to that.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16701262/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29581388/Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Talha, @Homeschooling Mom in NY
I’m sorry, and at least I’m not a homo-
..nym Commie, but on this writing:
I am figuratively speechless. How else could the Doc get up from her seat but literally? Secondly, I really don’t understand the woman’s problem with being told the truth straight-up.
On the subject, firstly, I don’t know HOW you got to this before Steve Sailer. I thought he read the BBC. IBC, NYT, all of it for us! This is right in his wheelhouse but should generate good discussion here too, with lots of the same commenters.
Your point that Mrs. Osagie should have had a baby much earlier in life is a good one. That is the crux of the matter. In one of our 1st few posts on feminism, Peak Stupidty noted “Feminism 101 – It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature!”. From that post:
Even if Mrs Osagie (and her husband, who hopefully has a little say in the matter) get their egg from a type of donor they want, the 2nd and 3rd of the 3 problems are still there. Hopefully it goes well, as Germany could use more Germans.
Lastly, on a sad sad story from England about women who waited too long to understand what they were made for, here are two more posts with discussion on this matter – “Not Bringing Home a Baby” – the Sadness of Stupidity – Part 1 and Part 2.
Thanks, Hippo, I had this scene in my mind pretty much the whole time I was reading the post.
She married at 29 and planned to get pregnant right away. German N European so let’s rightly assume menarche at 13. So when she married she’d been losing 12 eggs a year for 16 years.
A woman is born with approximately 450 eggs. 16 X 12 = 192. So when she married she had about 258 eggs left.
Hardly 90% eggs gone at age 30. Perhaps the author should have googled a little basic anatomy before he stated that 90% of a woman’s eggs are gone by 30.
If she hasn’t been able to get pregnant there’s something wrong. Since she and husband are looking for an egg, rather than a sperm donor, her reproductive system isn’t functioning. She’s still got about 150-160 eggs left.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @JohnPlywood, @Rosie
You may be right about the 90% – maybe it’s a few years after 30. BTW, it’s not just the eggs, but the egg follicles, but that probably doesn’t change the percentages you are writing about. I went through this, something I hadn’t really delved into since high-school biology, when I wrote the post Feminism 102 – Mother Nature expresses herself monthly*. This is right from a wiki source, and being not-too-awful-political, it’s likely an accurate picture:
My question is to you, #567, is what is the quality of the remaining eggs and the follicles that may turn into eggs? How good is that incubator in the long term? I think that is the problem with a woman trying to conceive in the late ’30’s or later.
.
* That post is on my theory, maybe pretty obvious, that the strong negative emotions generated during women’s periods are due to the sub-conscious mourning of the loss of these eggs/follicles. Just as with men’s sexual appetite that does not consciously bring up ANY thoughts of babies, perhaps it’s an analogy to that.
“My heritage is German. My grandparents on both sides of the family are both from Bavaria… it was important to me to at least have some cultural connection with the child, and I felt that if it was from a different heritage, I may not…”
In so many ways this is sad.
But , my first thought was they simply go to Germany. Maybe I missed something.
https://www.whatclinic.com/fertility/germany/egg-donor
https://vivaneo-ivf.com/en/treatment/egg-donation/
So if it’s illegal in Germany, certainly there are German women willing to depart the country to donate a precious egg .
Furthermore, i am very confused. There was no discussion about how to improve the viability of her own eggs, if possible.
———————————-
Saddest of all is that we still don’t understand, very little of national trait is passed on via biology. To link biology to culture is frankly – incorrect. Biological lineage, is important, but it is not cultural.
1) Dietary preference associated with national culture is sometimes genetic: coffee vs. tea, for example.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coffee-tea-preference-dna-chemical-sensitivity-taste
2) Warrior gene frequency varies with population. So does psychopathic tendency. I’m sure that has some impact on cultural / national toleration of violence and related topics.
3) “In China, coffee shop habits show cultural differences tied to farming.”
IIRC, the article concerns a study examining propensity of coffee shop patrons to push in nearby chairs. This behavior had a genetic link to their ancestor’s farming habits. This is something that could likewise vary between major racial groups, although I don’t think that was examined. Regardless, this further demonstrates that culture can indeed be genetic even within populations.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/china-coffee-shop-habits-show-cultural-differences-tied-farming
There are lots of other examples. There will be more in coming years. The poster’s comment is, unfortunately, the kind of thinking prevalent among Boomer conservatives. It’s often uninformed by the science, based on magical thinking, and mildly condescending from a point of perceived – but unwarranted – moral supremacy. My guess: Boomer Trump has brainwashed a lot of his gullible followers into abandoning their dissident bent from 2016 and following him down the Mitt Romney path to defeat in 2020. That means digging up old, discredited tropes from the past so no one in authority can call them names.Replies: @dfordoom, @Twinkie
correction:
My first thought was they should simply go to Germany or Caribea. Maybe I missed something. It doesn’t make much sense to me to expect to find German or Caribean eggs in the UK. If you want German biology, go to Germany. If you want Caribean biology go to the Caribea.
https://time.com/5491636/denmark-ivf-storkklinik-fertility/
The Brexit crisis nobody is talking about? Our need for Danish sperm
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-danish-sperm-banks-imports
The Serbian Women Who Want Danish Sperm Donors
https://www.newsweek.com/2015/03/20/serbian-women-who-want-danish-sperm-donors-313513.html
Women Are Now Pillaging Sperm Banks for Viking Babies
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3dx9nj/women-are-now-pillaging-sperm-banks-for-viking-babiesReplies: @MalePaleStale
Guys can make 125 dollars per sperm donation here in the USA. I visited a few of these donation websites and what struck me most was how few donors there were. I urge the qualified men of UNZ to look into donating.
The men in the Charlottesville march were generally pretty good looking and healthy. They would have done more for the cause by donating sperm than participating in that foolish protest.
This woman is clearly an idiot.
She needs to run, not walk, to that Spanish clinic to get that Canadian egg, if she wants ever to have a child.
Just like it is not plausible that there could be a shortage of black egg donors, except that 'Afro-Caribbean' is too small of a boutique subgroup (1.1%) to be easily found.
Plus, I thought that WNs always say that any black person who ever seeks an egg or sperm donor only ever wants a white donor. The original article proves that this is not the case.Replies: @anon
Broad, unsourced generalization that ignores the concept of proportion. And don’t kid yourself. The Ansari’s of the world aren’t exactly highly sought after, so you’re out of luck in the dating department. Enjoy being alone.
AOC’s boyfriend — white male.
Illhan Omar’s illicit lover — white male.
Susan Rice’s husband — white male.
Halley Berry’s baby daddy — white male.
NYC mayor Deblasio — his wife wanted a white male.
ETC.
How many Indian male / white female couples do you see? Not many. Do Chinese companies hire models from your tribe? Rarely, unless they are female Caucasiods. Must be emasculating. Enjoy your “WN” rage Elliot. Essentially every loser WN is still inherently better than you … and women still want them more, which says a lot.
BTW, why do you allow this troll to post here? He contributes nothing, he monopolizes the top comment with an insult which derails the conversation, and he’s using “WN” as a slur on whites in general (which would seem to be an oblique violation of your own posting policy). True, I use “Ansari” as a counter insult … but I wouldn’t have to if his comments were moderated in the first place. Any use of the term “WN” that is not germaine to the conversation should be removed. Moderate his posts, or I’ll stop posting here. Others should follow suit.
I cannot see approx a third of the comments here because I have a rather extensive IGNORE list (I may be on a few myself) -- I don't think I'm missing much; perhaps you now agree.
Also, pick a moniker and use/stick with it -- you're still anonymous.
“• Troll: Mr. Rational”
Goodness gracious.
If you can demonstrate a culture that arises from the exchange of one’s conception, have at it. This is a vitally important distinction, because from that definition or understanding of culture from biology flows an entire list of arguments that link biology to traits that have some value to immediate family personality even possibly IQ and those links are tenuous as steady state effect – very tenuous and variable. But German ancestry in this context, Caribean ancestry in this context is via biology — a child conceived by Caribean parents is not going to spontaneously, spring out with
“Don’t worry, be happy”,
a deeply embedded phrase among Caribean cultures, especially Jamaica. A German child conceived by German parents is not going to spontaneously pop out with, “Guten tag.” they may have a hankering for schnitzel, but that would be due to the biology impacted by diet. I absolutely think there is something to “cellular memory”, even in the case of conception.
And I don’t think there is anything there is anything inciteful by encouraging people to fish on the pond where the desired fish is substantial.
In so many ways this is sad.
But , my first thought was they simply go to Germany. Maybe I missed something.
https://www.whatclinic.com/fertility/germany/egg-donor
https://vivaneo-ivf.com/en/treatment/egg-donation/
So if it's illegal in Germany, certainly there are German women willing to depart the country to donate a precious egg .
Furthermore, i am very confused. There was no discussion about how to improve the viability of her own eggs, if possible.
----------------------------------
Saddest of all is that we still don't understand, very little of national trait is passed on via biology. To link biology to culture is frankly - incorrect. Biological lineage, is important, but it is not cultural.Replies: @Divine Right
That’s not entirely correct. National / ethnic culture, in some instances, is downstream from biology. Example: Japan has a culture of learning because Japan has the world’s highest mean IQ for any nation. As of the late 1980s, Japanese students were two grade levels above Western counterparts. That culture didn’t fall from the sky but was rather the result of an underlying genetic code that varies with the population under consideration; switch Mexico’s population with Japan’s population and suddenly the area known as Mexico is a global economic and cultural power. IQ is strongly heritable, and nearly any objection you could raise on the subject has already been debunked. Obviously, the strength of the “national / ethnic culture” association varies with what is being considered, but it’s not true to imply that people are blank slates, either.
1) Dietary preference associated with national culture is sometimes genetic: coffee vs. tea, for example.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coffee-tea-preference-dna-chemical-sensitivity-taste
2) Warrior gene frequency varies with population. So does psychopathic tendency. I’m sure that has some impact on cultural / national toleration of violence and related topics.
3) “In China, coffee shop habits show cultural differences tied to farming.”
IIRC, the article concerns a study examining propensity of coffee shop patrons to push in nearby chairs. This behavior had a genetic link to their ancestor’s farming habits. This is something that could likewise vary between major racial groups, although I don’t think that was examined. Regardless, this further demonstrates that culture can indeed be genetic even within populations.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/china-coffee-shop-habits-show-cultural-differences-tied-farming
There are lots of other examples. There will be more in coming years. The poster’s comment is, unfortunately, the kind of thinking prevalent among Boomer conservatives. It’s often uninformed by the science, based on magical thinking, and mildly condescending from a point of perceived – but unwarranted – moral supremacy. My guess: Boomer Trump has brainwashed a lot of his gullible followers into abandoning their dissident bent from 2016 and following him down the Mitt Romney path to defeat in 2020. That means digging up old, discredited tropes from the past so no one in authority can call them names.
In fact it may well be that Japan has a very high mean IQ because it has a culture of learning. That's more likely.
You have not demonstrated that national/ethnic culture is downstream from biology. You have merely asserted it.
https://www.worlddata.info/iq-by-country.phpReplies: @Sya Beerens, @JohnPlywood
Interesting…so – in essence – she wants to be a surrogate mother for another German woman’s child conceived with her husband’s sperm.
Peace.
She married at 29 and planned to get pregnant right away. German N European so let’s rightly assume menarche at 13. So when she married she’d been losing 12 eggs a year for 16 years.
A woman is born with approximately 450 eggs. 16 X 12 = 192. So when she married she had about 258 eggs left.
Hardly 90% eggs gone at age 30. Perhaps the author should have googled a little basic anatomy before he stated that 90% of a woman’s eggs are gone by 30.
If she hasn’t been able to get pregnant there’s something wrong. Since she and husband are looking for an egg, rather than a sperm donor, her reproductive system isn’t functioning. She’s still got about 150-160 eggs left.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @JohnPlywood, @Rosie
Women do lose about 90% of their functional eggs by the 30s:
https://www.ed.ac.uk/news/all-news/ovaries-280110
Also, don’t be foolish setting the age of first menarche at age 13 using ancient data. You’ll never be able to predict anything using math when you assume fakeass parameters like that. The average age of first menarche among white girls is 7 or 8 nowadays. By age 14 girls are already starting to degrade reproductively.
Women lower age 20 birth weak, incel sons, and their male fertility-impairing mtDNA mutations are going mainstream in the general population due to advanced birthing ages. We have got to to accelerate the births of young women before it’s too late.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16701262/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29581388/
http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/files/display/139/fullsize
http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/case-studies/207Europe and US in general:
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/121/Supplement_3/S167/F1.medium.gif"From as early as the 1800s, data on the age of menarche have been collected and recorded in health records among specific populations in the United States1 and Europe.2 Declines in the age at menarche have been reported from the late 1800s to the mid-1900s, and these declines have been attributed to improvements in nutrition occurring over the same period (Fig 1). 3,4"
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/121/Supplement_3/S167Interesting. Here is a (partial) list of very young birth mothers. Obviously, this likely doesn't take into account places where the birth may have not been recorded like in the past centuries or in outer Mongolia, Yemen, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothersPeace.Replies: @Sya Beerens
correction: And I don’t think there is anything there is anything inciteful by encouraging people to fish in the pond where the desired fish is substantial.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16701262/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29581388/Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Talha, @Homeschooling Mom in NY
*Women over age 20 birth
I would have thought along these lines as well; the lines of parentage are blurred and what not. Though there are a lot of German Protestants (for obvious historical reasons) and I have no clue how many Germans actually abide by religious rules any more.
I guess in the past, this would have been a reason for a wealthier couple to devote their time into adopting from a local German family or desperate mother that could not afford her new baby (or, out of shame left it at the doorstep of a church), but that is likely not the case anymore in Germany since the entire society is generally well to do and out-of-wedlock births are not a big deal.
Peace.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16701262/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29581388/Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Talha, @Homeschooling Mom in NY
Yeah – pretty weird since whites had generally been higher than others, but this downward trend has been happening for a while (example here is Norway):
http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/files/display/139/fullsize
http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/case-studies/207
Europe and US in general:
“From as early as the 1800s, data on the age of menarche have been collected and recorded in health records among specific populations in the United States1 and Europe.2 Declines in the age at menarche have been reported from the late 1800s to the mid-1900s, and these declines have been attributed to improvements in nutrition occurring over the same period (Fig 1). 3,4”
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/121/Supplement_3/S167
Interesting. Here is a (partial) list of very young birth mothers. Obviously, this likely doesn’t take into account places where the birth may have not been recorded like in the past centuries or in outer Mongolia, Yemen, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers
Peace.
But when it comes to Europeans it’s “WASP Christians White or Jews”
AmishReplies: @Talha
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16701262/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29581388/Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Talha, @Homeschooling Mom in NY
Citation needed.
If German women don’t want to donate eggs and refuse eggs other than German who cares not my problem.Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Audacious Epigone
It’s not just that German women don’t want to donate; but that:
the ratio of fertile German women to sub-fertile or infertile German women has never been lower
Historically, there were few infertile women wanting to reproduce. Today; the number of older infertile women considering reproduction is greater than the number of natutally fertile females.
German population pyramid evolution from 1910-2025
Also I sincerely doubt the average German woman wants German eggs.
Germany moved to Israel case closed
Fertility rates and a desire for german children
https://www.womenshealthmag.com/life/a19924737/egg-donation/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/17/fertility-rate-germany-rises-33-year-high-births-children-population
https://www.economist.com/europe/2019/06/29/why-germanys-birth-rate-is-rising-and-italys-isnt
https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-fertility-rate-hits-43-year-high/a-43163756
https://www.dw.com/en/are-family-policy-reforms-to-thank-for-germanys-rising-birth-rates/a-43188961
Would like to take a moment to correct myself here, for having referred to that picture as the “evolution” of German population structure. I can think of no better word for this terrifying image than “deformity”. The beauty of the symmetrical, natural pyramid of 1910 Germany, contrasted against the hideous shape of 2005 Germany, and the evil that it represents, is horrifying.
Peace.
Bavarian? Have you been anywhere the past 200 years? Nurture over nature
Historically, there were few infertile women wanting to reproduce. Today; the number of older infertile women considering reproduction is greater than the number of natutally fertile females. German population pyramid evolution from 1910-2025https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kristin_Kistowski/publication/225645059/figure/fig2/AS:339596861820933@1457977609548/Population-pyramids-for-Germany-in-1910-2005-and-2025-The-data-for-1910-do-resemble-a.pngAlso I sincerely doubt the average German woman wants German eggs.Replies: @Svevlad
Oof. Germany better get some plague or something lest they die of mass pensionism
HoloPlague survivors
http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/files/display/139/fullsize
http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/case-studies/207Europe and US in general:
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/121/Supplement_3/S167/F1.medium.gif"From as early as the 1800s, data on the age of menarche have been collected and recorded in health records among specific populations in the United States1 and Europe.2 Declines in the age at menarche have been reported from the late 1800s to the mid-1900s, and these declines have been attributed to improvements in nutrition occurring over the same period (Fig 1). 3,4"
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/121/Supplement_3/S167Interesting. Here is a (partial) list of very young birth mothers. Obviously, this likely doesn't take into account places where the birth may have not been recorded like in the past centuries or in outer Mongolia, Yemen, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothersPeace.Replies: @Sya Beerens
What’s with all the DATA flying around here? 7 yo girls? African IQ libido?
But when it comes to Europeans it’s “WASP Christians White or Jews”
Amish
Peace.
The 2005 and 2025 graph look like two old dudes looking away from each other (with a big nose and lips and a weak, sloping chin) – I cannot unsee it.
Peace.
“That’s not entirely correct. National / ethnic culture, in some instances, is downstream from biology.”
There’s no evidence of this. They also have the one of the most educational systems of any society and that is in my the primary contributor. Now I am not as keen as Frederick the Great (?) who tested the value of nature to nurture to the extreme. But that intense experiment makes a very clear case that future is required and for humans is more a factor for survival than biology. One would think that the millions of years of human genetic pass along among that inherited trait would be the desire to survive, if one has access to food and water. In that experiment the nurtured (environment) children survived, the others did not.
Unless you remove said japanese child from that environment only to that same child dive into his studies or perform x cognitive ability, the claim you make is unsupported.
The Medical Procedure of Egg Donation
So egg donation is not exactly routine or trivial; more at the link re risks and potential complications of both phases.
That said, more women would probably be willing to do it if there was something comparable to the campaign promoting organ donation (or attractive compensation).
AOC's boyfriend -- white male.
Illhan Omar's illicit lover -- white male.
Susan Rice's husband -- white male.
Halley Berry's baby daddy -- white male.
NYC mayor Deblasio -- his wife wanted a white male.
ETC.
How many Indian male / white female couples do you see? Not many. Do Chinese companies hire models from your tribe? Rarely, unless they are female Caucasiods. Must be emasculating. Enjoy your "WN" rage Elliot. Essentially every loser WN is still inherently better than you ... and women still want them more, which says a lot.
BTW, why do you allow this troll to post here? He contributes nothing, he monopolizes the top comment with an insult which derails the conversation, and he's using "WN" as a slur on whites in general (which would seem to be an oblique violation of your own posting policy). True, I use "Ansari" as a counter insult ... but I wouldn't have to if his comments were moderated in the first place. Any use of the term "WN" that is not germaine to the conversation should be removed. Moderate his posts, or I'll stop posting here. Others should follow suit.Replies: @Mark G., @eah
“He contributes nothing, he monopolizes the top comment with an insult which derails the conversation, and he’s using “WN” as a slur on whites in general (which would seem to be an oblique violation of your own posting policy).”
Commenters like Thomm give other commenters something to respond to. Sometimes the responses are interesting and the responses wouldn’t exist if not for the original comment they are responding to. Sometimes Thomm’s original comment is interesting too. He can’t resist the temptation to recycle the same taunts over and over again, though.
The most boring comment sections to me are the heavily censored ones where the blog owner heavily censors anyone who doesn’t agree with him. You just end up with everyone agreeing and telling each other how smart they are. Liberal bloggers are especially prone to that and those comment sections are a real snoozefest. They also come across as silly since most liberals aren’t all that smart.
Supporting facts include the observation that WNs are almost entirely male, and virtually identical in number with an all-female group that has many of the same ne'er do well traits : the fat bluehaired feminists.
Repetition is necessary to expose this sordid tier for what it is. As a mainstream white person, I am very keen on this group not mooching off of us, as other welfare-seeking groups (blacks, etc.) already mooch off of us.
Only a complete idiot could possibly think that I am a South Asian, since my 2000+ comments over two years give no such indication. Even Ron Unz admitted that he perpetuated that meme just to troll the WNs (as is the primary purpose of this website).
Young Boy Meets the Angel Who Saved His Life! — video about a young German woman who, after volunteering to be typed and later finding out she was a match, donated bone marrow to a 10 y/o American boy with leukemia.
Peace.
AOC's boyfriend -- white male.
Illhan Omar's illicit lover -- white male.
Susan Rice's husband -- white male.
Halley Berry's baby daddy -- white male.
NYC mayor Deblasio -- his wife wanted a white male.
ETC.
How many Indian male / white female couples do you see? Not many. Do Chinese companies hire models from your tribe? Rarely, unless they are female Caucasiods. Must be emasculating. Enjoy your "WN" rage Elliot. Essentially every loser WN is still inherently better than you ... and women still want them more, which says a lot.
BTW, why do you allow this troll to post here? He contributes nothing, he monopolizes the top comment with an insult which derails the conversation, and he's using "WN" as a slur on whites in general (which would seem to be an oblique violation of your own posting policy). True, I use "Ansari" as a counter insult ... but I wouldn't have to if his comments were moderated in the first place. Any use of the term "WN" that is not germaine to the conversation should be removed. Moderate his posts, or I'll stop posting here. Others should follow suit.Replies: @Mark G., @eah
Use the IGNORE feature: that’s what it’s for (as opposed to advocating someone else censor comments) — you can choose to show individual comments from IGNOREd commenters if you wish.
I cannot see approx a third of the comments here because I have a rather extensive IGNORE list (I may be on a few myself) — I don’t think I’m missing much; perhaps you now agree.
Also, pick a moniker and use/stick with it — you’re still anonymous.
But when it comes to Europeans it’s “WASP Christians White or Jews”
AmishReplies: @Talha
I don’t know; I just posted something that I thought might add to the conversation.
Peace.
My sister-in-law had a similar situation, she also found a bone marrow donor from Germany (this was a man) who was a match for her. Really crazy procedure and and absolutely comprehensive. She now has a different blood type than the one she was born with! And has been certified cancer free!
Peace.
“It’s almost as if resentment and animosity are extracted, racial issues can be honestly and constructively discussed.”
Extract the proximity as well.
I hope that when I get to the Big Rock Candy Mountains, there won’t be any childless white women anymore….
It never would have occurred to me that anyone would want my eggs. I’ve always assumed people could pay for and get eggs from only 5’7″ model types.
I think I’m beginning to understand what this is all about. Women are just supposed to marry any schlub ten years older who comes along and offers to impregnate them, without regard to their own desires.
That may sound like a ridiculous straw man, but I don’t know how else to interpret this. If men don’t want to get married until later in life, what else are women supposed to do. Perhaps someone can explain.
Besides, women are attracted to seniority.
She married at 29 and planned to get pregnant right away. German N European so let’s rightly assume menarche at 13. So when she married she’d been losing 12 eggs a year for 16 years.
A woman is born with approximately 450 eggs. 16 X 12 = 192. So when she married she had about 258 eggs left.
Hardly 90% eggs gone at age 30. Perhaps the author should have googled a little basic anatomy before he stated that 90% of a woman’s eggs are gone by 30.
If she hasn’t been able to get pregnant there’s something wrong. Since she and husband are looking for an egg, rather than a sperm donor, her reproductive system isn’t functioning. She’s still got about 150-160 eggs left.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @JohnPlywood, @Rosie
You’ll find that the usual dissident right preference for empirical analysis goes out the window when it comes to the WQ.
The dissident right behaves in exactly the same way that they accuse liberals of behaving. They only like facts ands analysis and evidence when those factors seem to accord with their prejudices. Mostly they rely on emotion.
It is amusing that dissident rightists/white nationalists like to mock women for thinking emotionally when they themselves are slaves to their emotions to an embarrassing extent.Replies: @Rosie
That may sound like a ridiculous straw man, but I don't know how else to interpret this. If men don't want to get married until later in life, what else are women supposed to do. Perhaps someone can explain.Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Audacious Epigone
Women have historically always married older men. It takes men a long time to build up all those resources that make them viable herdsmen.
Besides, women are attracted to seniority.
Actually, women of below average height are preferred. No one wants genes from a 5’7″ woman.
I’m glad you lot are finally starting to be a bit more honest, about your desires, at least, though of course not the facts.
We don’t want older men. We want men our own age, regardless of what women have “historically always” done. You’re not calling all the shots, anymore.
If men want twenty-something wives, they need to be ready to be twentysomething husbands.
https://i.insider.com/51e55045eab8eaf71c000000?width=800&format=jpeg&auto=webp
We spend enough time old and alone as it is. The kids fly the nest when you’re fifty, then your husband dies when you’re fifty-five, leaving you alone for twenty years? No, thanks.
https://i.redd.it/gyuqbvjwyyj11.pngMen peak in their 50s and in most locales remain more desired than 20-something males well in to their 80s. It's conceivable that 20-something women would be more attracted to a 100 year old man than than a 23 year old. When women see young adult males in their 20s, their private parts shrivel and they are compelled by an urge to murder them with the nearest stabbing weapon, a logical impulse given the enormous trouble young males create for society in peacetime. Women desire seniority and men desire 20-something females.
Old men are going to continue marrying 20-something attractive females and you're going to continue failing in your war against that reality.Replies: @Rosie
That is not true at all. Female fashion models are selected for height.
In the real world however, men are not atttacted to tall women or supermodels, and shorter-than-average women are the most successful:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2667-short-women-more-successful-with-men/Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
1) Dietary preference associated with national culture is sometimes genetic: coffee vs. tea, for example.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coffee-tea-preference-dna-chemical-sensitivity-taste
2) Warrior gene frequency varies with population. So does psychopathic tendency. I’m sure that has some impact on cultural / national toleration of violence and related topics.
3) “In China, coffee shop habits show cultural differences tied to farming.”
IIRC, the article concerns a study examining propensity of coffee shop patrons to push in nearby chairs. This behavior had a genetic link to their ancestor’s farming habits. This is something that could likewise vary between major racial groups, although I don’t think that was examined. Regardless, this further demonstrates that culture can indeed be genetic even within populations.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/china-coffee-shop-habits-show-cultural-differences-tied-farming
There are lots of other examples. There will be more in coming years. The poster’s comment is, unfortunately, the kind of thinking prevalent among Boomer conservatives. It’s often uninformed by the science, based on magical thinking, and mildly condescending from a point of perceived – but unwarranted – moral supremacy. My guess: Boomer Trump has brainwashed a lot of his gullible followers into abandoning their dissident bent from 2016 and following him down the Mitt Romney path to defeat in 2020. That means digging up old, discredited tropes from the past so no one in authority can call them names.Replies: @dfordoom, @Twinkie
Japan almost certainly does have a culture of learning. And Japan may well have a very high mean IQ. But you haven’t proved an actual connection between the two.
In fact it may well be that Japan has a very high mean IQ because it has a culture of learning. That’s more likely.
You have not demonstrated that national/ethnic culture is downstream from biology. You have merely asserted it.
The dissident right has a preference for empirical analysis? When did this happen?
The dissident right behaves in exactly the same way that they accuse liberals of behaving. They only like facts ands analysis and evidence when those factors seem to accord with their prejudices. Mostly they rely on emotion.
It is amusing that dissident rightists/white nationalists like to mock women for thinking emotionally when they themselves are slaves to their emotions to an embarrassing extent.
That’s on the short side for models. Runway models are usually taller. More like 5’9”-5’10”.
1) Dietary preference associated with national culture is sometimes genetic: coffee vs. tea, for example.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coffee-tea-preference-dna-chemical-sensitivity-taste
2) Warrior gene frequency varies with population. So does psychopathic tendency. I’m sure that has some impact on cultural / national toleration of violence and related topics.
3) “In China, coffee shop habits show cultural differences tied to farming.”
IIRC, the article concerns a study examining propensity of coffee shop patrons to push in nearby chairs. This behavior had a genetic link to their ancestor’s farming habits. This is something that could likewise vary between major racial groups, although I don’t think that was examined. Regardless, this further demonstrates that culture can indeed be genetic even within populations.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/china-coffee-shop-habits-show-cultural-differences-tied-farming
There are lots of other examples. There will be more in coming years. The poster’s comment is, unfortunately, the kind of thinking prevalent among Boomer conservatives. It’s often uninformed by the science, based on magical thinking, and mildly condescending from a point of perceived – but unwarranted – moral supremacy. My guess: Boomer Trump has brainwashed a lot of his gullible followers into abandoning their dissident bent from 2016 and following him down the Mitt Romney path to defeat in 2020. That means digging up old, discredited tropes from the past so no one in authority can call them names.Replies: @dfordoom, @Twinkie
It has one of the highest, but not the highest. That belongs to Singapore, Taiwan, or South Korea depending on how one defines a country.
https://www.worlddata.info/iq-by-country.php
Who cares? Don’t brag about intelligence as if it’s what makes the world go round
https://i.redd.it/uqkx37h3dq831.jpgReplies: @Audacious Epigone, @Twinkie
The dissident right behaves in exactly the same way that they accuse liberals of behaving. They only like facts ands analysis and evidence when those factors seem to accord with their prejudices. Mostly they rely on emotion.
It is amusing that dissident rightists/white nationalists like to mock women for thinking emotionally when they themselves are slaves to their emotions to an embarrassing extent.Replies: @Rosie
They’re slaves, all right, but the master is not the heart, but rather a different organ.
I take pride in my contributions of thought leadership to HBD. Notably, the fact that the white distribution is bimodal, with an 80% mainstream group that exudes excellence, and a 20% group that obviously exists for a reason I have explained elsewhere.
Supporting facts include the observation that WNs are almost entirely male, and virtually identical in number with an all-female group that has many of the same ne’er do well traits : the fat bluehaired feminists.
Repetition is necessary to expose this sordid tier for what it is. As a mainstream white person, I am very keen on this group not mooching off of us, as other welfare-seeking groups (blacks, etc.) already mooch off of us.
Only a complete idiot could possibly think that I am a South Asian, since my 2000+ comments over two years give no such indication. Even Ron Unz admitted that he perpetuated that meme just to troll the WNs (as is the primary purpose of this website).
https://www.worlddata.info/iq-by-country.phpReplies: @Sya Beerens, @JohnPlywood
I’m North African with 116 IQ
Who cares? Don’t brag about intelligence as if it’s what makes the world go round
Female fashion models are selected by homosexual males who you would otherwise be complaining about if they were in any other position of influence.
In the real world however, men are not atttacted to tall women or supermodels, and shorter-than-average women are the most successful:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2667-short-women-more-successful-with-men/
https://www.worlddata.info/iq-by-country.phpReplies: @Sya Beerens, @JohnPlywood
Most of the data on that site comes from Richard Lynn’s IQ and the Wealth of Nations (2002) and is no longer regarded by Lynn himself as accurate as it used niche samples (sometimes university students vs. plumbers) for many developed countries.
This is a data table from Lynn’s most recent work, which is considered more accurate:
Here’s what science has to say on the matter:
Men peak in their 50s and in most locales remain more desired than 20-something males well in to their 80s. It’s conceivable that 20-something women would be more attracted to a 100 year old man than than a 23 year old. When women see young adult males in their 20s, their private parts shrivel and they are compelled by an urge to murder them with the nearest stabbing weapon, a logical impulse given the enormous trouble young males create for society in peacetime.
Women desire seniority and men desire 20-something females.
Old men are going to continue marrying 20-something attractive females and you’re going to continue failing in your war against that reality.
https://i.redd.it/gyuqbvjwyyj11.pngMen peak in their 50s and in most locales remain more desired than 20-something males well in to their 80s. It's conceivable that 20-something women would be more attracted to a 100 year old man than than a 23 year old. When women see young adult males in their 20s, their private parts shrivel and they are compelled by an urge to murder them with the nearest stabbing weapon, a logical impulse given the enormous trouble young males create for society in peacetime. Women desire seniority and men desire 20-something females.
Old men are going to continue marrying 20-something attractive females and you're going to continue failing in your war against that reality.Replies: @Rosie
Meanwhile, here on planet Earth, most women marry men not more than 3 years older than them, and the smaller the age gap, the more likely the marriage will end in divorce.
Yes, men get more interest when their fifty…from women in their forties, because eligible men are scarce in that age cohort. Sorry.
I'm sixty. I would say, with the exception of the rare Lolita or Billie Eilish "might seduce your dad type", adolescent girls have zero interest in older men. I've never run into one and if I did I would avoid her. The only time women in their twenties notice me is if I go to a strip club. Then they just want my money. There a few gold digger types in their thirties who would actually want a relationship with me but once again that is mostly based on money. I have fairly large numbers of women in their forties and fifties interested in me. John Plywood's graph showing that male desirability decreases at a slower rate than female desirability seems to be true.
I have one anomalous relationship. I have a 29 year old female who I have been friends with for several years who I have lunch or dinner with sometimes. She has never shown any sexual interest in me and also no interest in getting money out of me. I don't know why she likes me. Her father left her as a child and my friends have a theory that she somehow sees me as a father substitute.Replies: @JohnPlywood
Bad news for dysfunctional feminist white women who hate old men and prefer young boys:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/mar/02/evolution.geneticsReplies: @Rosie
In the real world however, men are not atttacted to tall women or supermodels, and shorter-than-average women are the most successful:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2667-short-women-more-successful-with-men/Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
I agree. Those fashion show models are too skinny. From what I’ve read, that kind of frame shows these clothes off the best, but then those are the kind of clothes that most people don’t buy anyway. It’s just more Bread & Circuses, but for the women. The leggy supermodels ought to stick to the beach.
Older male-younger female marriages really only commonly exist in traditionalist societies where parents maintain control over their daughter’s mate choices and female education and career choices are legally restricted. Young women do have a natural desire for men close to their age.
I’m sixty. I would say, with the exception of the rare Lolita or Billie Eilish “might seduce your dad type”, adolescent girls have zero interest in older men. I’ve never run into one and if I did I would avoid her. The only time women in their twenties notice me is if I go to a strip club. Then they just want my money. There a few gold digger types in their thirties who would actually want a relationship with me but once again that is mostly based on money. I have fairly large numbers of women in their forties and fifties interested in me. John Plywood’s graph showing that male desirability decreases at a slower rate than female desirability seems to be true.
I have one anomalous relationship. I have a 29 year old female who I have been friends with for several years who I have lunch or dinner with sometimes. She has never shown any sexual interest in me and also no interest in getting money out of me. I don’t know why she likes me. Her father left her as a child and my friends have a theory that she somehow sees me as a father substitute.
Are you Amish?
;-}
How much of a dumbass do you have to be to not realize that that chart says that over 85% of women marry a man older than they are? By the way, that chart is for gay marriage.
Bad news for dysfunctional feminist white women who hate old men and prefer young boys:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/mar/02/evolution.genetics
I'm sixty. I would say, with the exception of the rare Lolita or Billie Eilish "might seduce your dad type", adolescent girls have zero interest in older men. I've never run into one and if I did I would avoid her. The only time women in their twenties notice me is if I go to a strip club. Then they just want my money. There a few gold digger types in their thirties who would actually want a relationship with me but once again that is mostly based on money. I have fairly large numbers of women in their forties and fifties interested in me. John Plywood's graph showing that male desirability decreases at a slower rate than female desirability seems to be true.
I have one anomalous relationship. I have a 29 year old female who I have been friends with for several years who I have lunch or dinner with sometimes. She has never shown any sexual interest in me and also no interest in getting money out of me. I don't know why she likes me. Her father left her as a child and my friends have a theory that she somehow sees me as a father substitute.Replies: @JohnPlywood
Keep telling yourself that “Mark G.” or “Karen” as they call you at Costco. Adolescent girls are exclusively attracted to old men. It’s why guys like Epstein have such an easy time with them.
Having any child of mine raised by strangers would be abhorrent. Perhaps German women feel the same way.
How’d you know, Sya? What are you, one of those skinny English fucks?
;-}
That’s funny. I could’ve sworn the girls that got knocked up as teens when I was growing up had hooked up with the strapping youths in the neighborhood. Who knew it was the cranky old codgers?
How much of a dumbass do you have to be not to realize that this fact is entirely explicable by the fact that men have a preference for younger women?
In any event, I don’t necessarily deny that women prefer older men, the question is: how much older?
Another question: If men aren’t going to marry until they’re older, will they be celibate until then, or will they be pumping and dumping “whores” whom they have unfairly pigeonholed as worthless subhumans, as opposed to “wife material”? This is the foul stench at the heart of the old double standard that repels all decent men.
It also depends on what you mean by prefer. The men that women prefer as sex partners are not necessarily going to be the ones they marry. Until the 20th century women were more likely to choose a husband on the basis of his suitability. They'd look for a man who was responsible, stable and a good provider, which pretty much eliminated men under 30 (and except among the upper classes it probably eliminated most men under 35).
Then came the 20th century Cult of Romantic Love which encouraged women to forget suitability as husband material and choose a partner purely on the basis of emotion and lust. And to be fair the Cult of Romantic Love also encouraged men to choose wives based on emotion and lust.
Women probably do feel more sexual attraction to men their own age but the sensible ones will look for good husband material instead.Replies: @Rosie, @Audacious Epigone
Bad news for dysfunctional feminist white women who hate old men and prefer young boys:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/mar/02/evolution.geneticsReplies: @Rosie
What makes you think that?
If that is true, I figure it’s probably because he is seen as more attainable than a you g man with that very same sports car, and he is advertising his own stupidity. You know what they say about fools and their money.
Anecdotal (probably fake) horseshit. The average age of fathers who conceived with teen mothers is 21.
http://recapp.etr.org/recapp/index.cfm?fuseaction=pages.CurrentResearchDetail&PageID=393&PageTypeID=18#who
Homo erectus-tier statement.
A substantial number of males of males are incel; this figure rises above 30% for some ethnicities.
Typical cope from bottom of the barrel losers who are angry that someone other than them is at the top of the hierarchy. “Oh they’re just easier!“. But if women went for the more attainable man and vice versa, there’d be no incel crisis.
Instead, people go for the least attainable partner. You crack sucking pipe addict.
Look, the data show that women are more likely to respond to a message from a man ten years older than them than a man their own age. I’m sorry you don’t like that, but as so many around here are fond of saying, facts don’t care about your feelings.
Right. Like I said, young women want youthful men around their own age. The average age difference is 2.3 years, presumably much less if you factor out the gold diggers. What are we arguing about?
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whats-the-average-age-difference-in-a-couple/
P.S. There is no incel crisis.
We could’ve went with a “Holy Roman Empire” ancestral culture, I suppose. She wanted to name her son Otto, but I didn’t excerpt that part!
If German women don’t want to donate eggs and refuse eggs other than German who cares not my problem.Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Audacious Epigone
Doggerland is good enough for me.
In the USA we have a roughly equivalent number of males and females of a given age in most areas, or on average, a slightly higher number of males. If the average couple involves a 2.3 year age difference, and “YOUNGMALE+OLDERFEMALE” couples are 50% less common than the inverse, as your link shows, it means that for every female of a given age in a relationship, there are 1.05 males of the same age who are incel and unable to find a partner.
And indeed over 50% of youths are single:
^ That is an incel crisis. We have a low birth rate crisis, an aging crisis, a marriage crisis, and a divorce crisis. Never before in the history of humanity has something like this happened. Drastic measures are going to be required to fix it. If we don’t, a world of malfunctioning nuclear power plants, spontaneously disintegrating airplanes and leaked CDC bioagents is all you have to look forward to.
That may sound like a ridiculous straw man, but I don't know how else to interpret this. If men don't want to get married until later in life, what else are women supposed to do. Perhaps someone can explain.Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Audacious Epigone
Ceteris paribus, if having kids is what a woman wants, she’s going to have better luck the earlier she starts, that’s all.
The author is correct in this instance. Shoot the messenger if you must–he is a cathartic little pin cushion!
Are fashion models selected by men who reproduce?
Peace.
https://i.redd.it/uqkx37h3dq831.jpgReplies: @Audacious Epigone, @Twinkie
Haiti higher than the Dominican Republic? Interesting.
I was thinking the same thing! They don’t look like breeders.
Peace.
Women don’t have kids, AE. Couples have kids.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/19/college-educated-men-take-their-time-becoming-dads/Replies: @Talha
So now you’re conceding that women prefer men their own age and claiming that’s a problem that requires “drastic measures”?
When is someone going to lecture these college-educated men about their desire to postpone fertility? Don’t they know their wives’ eggs are deteriorating as we speak?
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/19/college-educated-men-take-their-time-becoming-dads/
Peace.Replies: @Rosie
https://i.redd.it/uqkx37h3dq831.jpgReplies: @Audacious Epigone, @Twinkie
Do you have a citation for that dataset?
https://viewoniq.org/?author=2
It includes data from Lynn and Vanhanen 2012 which I am guessing is the source of the data in the comment you were responding to.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289611001413Replies: @Twinkie
Don’t forget – the whole thing was called “das Heilige Römische Reich deutscher Nation” – the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. So the history of that ideology runs deep. I blame the Romans and the Byzantines, really. They pretty much called everyone across the Danube “Germans” and “Scythians.”
Wink, wink.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/19/college-educated-men-take-their-time-becoming-dads/Replies: @Talha
Yup – it’s a two front problem. I remember when I was a young man in high school, I had pretty much decided I was going to get married before I turned 25 and find a woman that was interested in family life and become a young father. When one has figured out these goals ahead of time, one doesn’t then mess around or waste time with a potential partner that doesn’t fit into the life one plans to live. A lot of young men don’t seem to have raising children as a priority in life these days.
Peace.
What I did figure out in college was what wasn't important: stuff. I took an almost mystical, withdrawn turn after that. Then, I met my husband and began to recover a sense of the essential goodness of this life. Of course, from there, it was only a matter of time until I started wanting kids.Replies: @Talha
Peace.Replies: @Rosie
This is very interesting. I was a hot mess in high school, and even in college, I hadn’t had it figured out.
What I did figure out in college was what wasn’t important: stuff. I took an almost mystical, withdrawn turn after that. Then, I met my husband and began to recover a sense of the essential goodness of this life. Of course, from there, it was only a matter of time until I started wanting kids.
1. Have a focus on your primary life goals; spiritual, health, financial, relationship, etc.
2. Have milestones figured out for when you aim to achieve them by
3. Re-evaluate yearly to see if you are on target; if not, make adjustments
4. As far as women; there is not "the ONE", there are "ones"
4-a. When you are ready for the woman milestone, find one that fits in well with your life and goals
I remember having a recent chat with my wife about when we met and got married in college. She thought maybe we got married a bit earlier than we should have (she graduated university with a belly full with our daughter). I told her, if she hadn't come into my life at that particular stage (and I'm glad she did), I would have simply ended up married to someone else* who was ready and available since I was earning and was on track for my marriage and family milestone by age 24-25. That was a particularly busy and fruitful year; I also completed my Hajj milestone just a couple of weeks before getting married.
Peace.
*I don't think women like to hear this, but I would hope that is made up for if they know they have a man that is focused and has thought-out goals. I could be wrong.Replies: @Rosie
What I did figure out in college was what wasn't important: stuff. I took an almost mystical, withdrawn turn after that. Then, I met my husband and began to recover a sense of the essential goodness of this life. Of course, from there, it was only a matter of time until I started wanting kids.Replies: @Talha
I think this is fine for women, I think men should be much more focused about how they approach life and goals. That’s what I plan to sit down with my eldest son soon about:
1. Have a focus on your primary life goals; spiritual, health, financial, relationship, etc.
2. Have milestones figured out for when you aim to achieve them by
3. Re-evaluate yearly to see if you are on target; if not, make adjustments
4. As far as women; there is not “the ONE”, there are “ones”
4-a. When you are ready for the woman milestone, find one that fits in well with your life and goals
I remember having a recent chat with my wife about when we met and got married in college. She thought maybe we got married a bit earlier than we should have (she graduated university with a belly full with our daughter). I told her, if she hadn’t come into my life at that particular stage (and I’m glad she did), I would have simply ended up married to someone else* who was ready and available since I was earning and was on track for my marriage and family milestone by age 24-25. That was a particularly busy and fruitful year; I also completed my Hajj milestone just a couple of weeks before getting married.
Peace.
*I don’t think women like to hear this, but I would hope that is made up for if they know they have a man that is focused and has thought-out goals. I could be wrong.
1. Have a focus on your primary life goals; spiritual, health, financial, relationship, etc.
2. Have milestones figured out for when you aim to achieve them by
3. Re-evaluate yearly to see if you are on target; if not, make adjustments
4. As far as women; there is not "the ONE", there are "ones"
4-a. When you are ready for the woman milestone, find one that fits in well with your life and goals
I remember having a recent chat with my wife about when we met and got married in college. She thought maybe we got married a bit earlier than we should have (she graduated university with a belly full with our daughter). I told her, if she hadn't come into my life at that particular stage (and I'm glad she did), I would have simply ended up married to someone else* who was ready and available since I was earning and was on track for my marriage and family milestone by age 24-25. That was a particularly busy and fruitful year; I also completed my Hajj milestone just a couple of weeks before getting married.
Peace.
*I don't think women like to hear this, but I would hope that is made up for if they know they have a man that is focused and has thought-out goals. I could be wrong.Replies: @Rosie
Well, I can tell you, in my case, I think my husband really was “the one.” Everything some men around here hate about me, my husband thinks is adorable, and not in a demeaning you’re-so-cute-when-you’re-angry kind of way. I’m not sure I’d have ever married but for him.
I guess, the way a traditional Muslim man approaches the situation, it would be very different. For instance, as I said, I was ready and able to support myself and get married and start a family. It is at that point that I was now in the market (since we don't date or shack up or any of that stuff) looking for a wife with compatible goals. Things didn't work out with the first few attempts...oh well, try again until you hit pay dirt.
So I guess I'd say; my wife is "the one" from a pool of potential "ones"...if that makes sense.
Peace.Replies: @Rosie
I can see that – and I think that is very important for women.
I guess, the way a traditional Muslim man approaches the situation, it would be very different. For instance, as I said, I was ready and able to support myself and get married and start a family. It is at that point that I was now in the market (since we don’t date or shack up or any of that stuff) looking for a wife with compatible goals. Things didn’t work out with the first few attempts…oh well, try again until you hit pay dirt.
So I guess I’d say; my wife is “the one” from a pool of potential “ones”…if that makes sense.
Peace.
I guess, the way a traditional Muslim man approaches the situation, it would be very different. For instance, as I said, I was ready and able to support myself and get married and start a family. It is at that point that I was now in the market (since we don't date or shack up or any of that stuff) looking for a wife with compatible goals. Things didn't work out with the first few attempts...oh well, try again until you hit pay dirt.
So I guess I'd say; my wife is "the one" from a pool of potential "ones"...if that makes sense.
Peace.Replies: @Rosie
It stems from a fear of abandonment. If you’re just another pretty face, what happens when a prettier face comes along? I know NAMALT, and I’m not saying it’s entirely fair. I’m just saying that’s the root of it.
Peace.
I suspect it’s mostly culture rather than biology that drives marriage partner choices. In Victorian times no-one thought there was anything odd about women marrying men thirty years their senior. Today people seem to think that’s creepy.
It also depends on what you mean by prefer. The men that women prefer as sex partners are not necessarily going to be the ones they marry. Until the 20th century women were more likely to choose a husband on the basis of his suitability. They’d look for a man who was responsible, stable and a good provider, which pretty much eliminated men under 30 (and except among the upper classes it probably eliminated most men under 35).
Then came the 20th century Cult of Romantic Love which encouraged women to forget suitability as husband material and choose a partner purely on the basis of emotion and lust. And to be fair the Cult of Romantic Love also encouraged men to choose wives based on emotion and lust.
Women probably do feel more sexual attraction to men their own age but the sensible ones will look for good husband material instead.
That's why this evergreen game is still a thing!Replies: @Rosie
It also depends on what you mean by prefer. The men that women prefer as sex partners are not necessarily going to be the ones they marry. Until the 20th century women were more likely to choose a husband on the basis of his suitability. They'd look for a man who was responsible, stable and a good provider, which pretty much eliminated men under 30 (and except among the upper classes it probably eliminated most men under 35).
Then came the 20th century Cult of Romantic Love which encouraged women to forget suitability as husband material and choose a partner purely on the basis of emotion and lust. And to be fair the Cult of Romantic Love also encouraged men to choose wives based on emotion and lust.
Women probably do feel more sexual attraction to men their own age but the sensible ones will look for good husband material instead.Replies: @Rosie, @Audacious Epigone
This is a false dilemma. Just because a man is poor doesn’t mean he’s not “good husband material.” The question is whether he show a willingness to work hard for his family.
And women who marry for a meal ticket are prostitutes. Sorry.
I'd like to see women make smart choices and end up happy but if they don't it's not going to have any effect on me personally. I'm not in the market for a wife so I honestly don't have a dog in this fight.
Just because I think it's an interesting topic to discuss doesn't mean I have a personal investment in it. You seem to think that I have a personal agenda. I don't.Replies: @Rosie
Peace.Replies: @Rosie
It also depends on what you mean by prefer. The men that women prefer as sex partners are not necessarily going to be the ones they marry. Until the 20th century women were more likely to choose a husband on the basis of his suitability. They'd look for a man who was responsible, stable and a good provider, which pretty much eliminated men under 30 (and except among the upper classes it probably eliminated most men under 35).
Then came the 20th century Cult of Romantic Love which encouraged women to forget suitability as husband material and choose a partner purely on the basis of emotion and lust. And to be fair the Cult of Romantic Love also encouraged men to choose wives based on emotion and lust.
Women probably do feel more sexual attraction to men their own age but the sensible ones will look for good husband material instead.Replies: @Rosie, @Audacious Epigone
The men that women prefer as sex partners are not necessarily going to be the ones they marry.
That’s why this evergreen game is still a thing!
You all are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.
That's why this evergreen game is still a thing!Replies: @Rosie
Of course, in real life, we don’t have to make those kinds of choices. We get to pick someone we want to marry and f***!
You all are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.
It’s a very real and legitimate fear. And it’s a concern I have for my own daughter. I don’t want to entrust her to some young man who is spiritually immature and will abandon her when she is older and there are younger conquests around. A woman gives her youth to a man, bears his children, etc. has a right to expect courtesy, dignity, etc. when the youthfulness has faded.
No, but enough may be to warrant caution. Since my wife is a family therapist/counselor, I get to hear about how miserable some husbands can be.
Peace.
The problem is that twenty-something men aren’t grown up yet. There’s no way of knowing how they’ll turn out. The lazy irresponsible bums might turn out to be hard-working and stable when they hit their thirties. The ones that seem to have potential might turn out to be alcoholic self-pitying losers. The advantage for a woman in choosing an older male is that if he’s responsible and stable he’ll probably stay that way.
Why are you apologising to me? I don’t care if women marry 20-year-olds or 70-year-olds. I don’t really care if they marry rich guys or good-natured layabouts. It doesn’t affect me personally. If a woman makes an unwise choice it’s a problem for her, not for me. If she decides not to marry for a meal ticket and she ends up living in poverty then again that’s a problem for her, not for me.
I’d like to see women make smart choices and end up happy but if they don’t it’s not going to have any effect on me personally. I’m not in the market for a wife so I honestly don’t have a dog in this fight.
Just because I think it’s an interesting topic to discuss doesn’t mean I have a personal investment in it. You seem to think that I have a personal agenda. I don’t.
1. Take a chance at being miserable.
2. Be miserable for sure.
It's not hard.
I suppose I do have a dog in this fight, as much as I hate that expression. Old man/young woman pairings are bad for everyone except gold diggers and old men. A young woman who wants to marry a man her own age can't do it because her male peers are out screwing around, and they will suffer no adverse consequences as they can get a young wife in ten or fifteen years when they're going bald and getting fat. Likewise, young men who want to marry a young woman and build a life together can't do that if women won't give a young man without any wealth a chance.
Everyone here should understand that personal choices have implications for other people's lives. Otherwise, we'd be liberals.Replies: @dfordoom
Perhaps, but the arrangement has been fairly universally acceptable as long as they stick to that one customer for the long haul and bear his children.
Peace.
I'd like to see women make smart choices and end up happy but if they don't it's not going to have any effect on me personally. I'm not in the market for a wife so I honestly don't have a dog in this fight.
Just because I think it's an interesting topic to discuss doesn't mean I have a personal investment in it. You seem to think that I have a personal agenda. I don't.Replies: @Rosie
2 choices:
1. Take a chance at being miserable.
2. Be miserable for sure.
It’s not hard.
I suppose I do have a dog in this fight, as much as I hate that expression. Old man/young woman pairings are bad for everyone except gold diggers and old men. A young woman who wants to marry a man her own age can’t do it because her male peers are out screwing around, and they will suffer no adverse consequences as they can get a young wife in ten or fifteen years when they’re going bald and getting fat. Likewise, young men who want to marry a young woman and build a life together can’t do that if women won’t give a young man without any wealth a chance.
Everyone here should understand that personal choices have implications for other people’s lives. Otherwise, we’d be liberals.
And I'm not sure that people should be expected to consider the good of society when they get married. They should certainly consider the interests of the person they're marrying but I think that's where their responsibility ends.Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. If you're an alcoholic and you're single then your personal choice has no effect on anyone else. If you're an alcoholic and you're married your choice probably will affect others. If you're an alcoholic and you drink-drive you're definitely affecting others. I don't see how the age or the financial status of the person you choose to marry can possibly have implications for other people's lives.
Whether society has the right (or possibly a duty) to interfere in people's lives merely to protect people from their own folly is a tricky question. I'm inclined to think that when society starts doing that it won't end well.Replies: @Rosie
Peace.Replies: @Rosie
The whole thrust of the manosphere critique of contemporary society is bitterness that women no longer have to be prostitutes (with one customer or many). Only Andrew Anglin has ever been so crass as to come right out and say point blank that women shouldn’t be in any workplace that’s not a brothel, but plenty of others imply the same, intentionally or not.
Just imagine getting undressed to engage in the most intimate act in human life with some guy you feel nothing for just to get your three hots and a cot. It may be hard for men to understand the horror of this on account of the fact that they don’t see sex as we do.
"Now, the latest data reveals not only that the phenomenon is spreading, but also that it’s gaining traction in certain areas much more than in others. The University of Texas at Austin, in particular, saw a massive growth in sign-ups between 2013 and 2014. With a 227 percent increase the growth far outpaced all other schools in the country when it came to the sugar phenomenon, according to SeekingArrangement."
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/01/where-the-sugar-babies-are/384547/
To be honest, it surprises me as well, but it's not really my business what reasons/motivations people marry each other for as long as it's not coerced/forced or done via underhanded means.
Peace.Replies: @Rosie
I think it should be the woman's choice. If she personally thinks it's a worthwhile trade-off then good luck to her. If she feels it's not a worthwhile trade-off then that's OK by me as well. Women do sometimes marry for money but nobody forces them to do so.There are some pretty weird and creepy men on the far right. There are a few who probably would go Full Handmaid's Tale on women if they got the chance. Fortunately nobody takes the far right (or the dissident right or the manosphere) seriously.Replies: @Talha
Well, I certainly don’t think it’s an optimal arrangement.
I get the reservation on the woman’s side and I agree a lot of it has to do with how men and women see things differently with regards to that, but it seems plenty of young women don’t necessarily mind the arrangement, even in a pretty feminized society:
“Now, the latest data reveals not only that the phenomenon is spreading, but also that it’s gaining traction in certain areas much more than in others. The University of Texas at Austin, in particular, saw a massive growth in sign-ups between 2013 and 2014. With a 227 percent increase the growth far outpaced all other schools in the country when it came to the sugar phenomenon, according to SeekingArrangement.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/01/where-the-sugar-babies-are/384547/
To be honest, it surprises me as well, but it’s not really my business what reasons/motivations people marry each other for as long as it’s not coerced/forced or done via underhanded means.
Peace.
If my understanding is correct, I'm not surprised. A small fraction of women are perfectly fine prostituting themselves. Lack of remorse about casual sex is one of the defining characteristics of psychopathy in women. They see it as just another way to get what they want.Replies: @Talha
"Now, the latest data reveals not only that the phenomenon is spreading, but also that it’s gaining traction in certain areas much more than in others. The University of Texas at Austin, in particular, saw a massive growth in sign-ups between 2013 and 2014. With a 227 percent increase the growth far outpaced all other schools in the country when it came to the sugar phenomenon, according to SeekingArrangement."
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/01/where-the-sugar-babies-are/384547/
To be honest, it surprises me as well, but it's not really my business what reasons/motivations people marry each other for as long as it's not coerced/forced or done via underhanded means.
Peace.Replies: @Rosie
Well, I certainly agree with that.
I assume from your cited that, despite the growth in this phenomenon, it remains the case that 99% of women students at Austin are not in the market for a sugar daddy.
If my understanding is correct, I’m not surprised. A small fraction of women are perfectly fine prostituting themselves. Lack of remorse about casual sex is one of the defining characteristics of psychopathy in women. They see it as just another way to get what they want.
If my understanding is correct, I'm not surprised. A small fraction of women are perfectly fine prostituting themselves. Lack of remorse about casual sex is one of the defining characteristics of psychopathy in women. They see it as just another way to get what they want.Replies: @Talha
It seems reasonable to me that in any given society, there is probably a 1% of women willing to be with any guy just for the financial benefit, no matter how old or repulsive. Now, if you make the guy reasonably older (maybe by 20-25 years) and OK-looking, that percentage probably jumps to 10%. That’s just my intuition and life experience. Which, I believe accords well with the percentage of men that likewise don’t mind that arrangement, since I don’t believe most men are down to be with a woman knowingly who is only with them for their money.
Peace.
1. Take a chance at being miserable.
2. Be miserable for sure.
It's not hard.
I suppose I do have a dog in this fight, as much as I hate that expression. Old man/young woman pairings are bad for everyone except gold diggers and old men. A young woman who wants to marry a man her own age can't do it because her male peers are out screwing around, and they will suffer no adverse consequences as they can get a young wife in ten or fifteen years when they're going bald and getting fat. Likewise, young men who want to marry a young woman and build a life together can't do that if women won't give a young man without any wealth a chance.
Everyone here should understand that personal choices have implications for other people's lives. Otherwise, we'd be liberals.Replies: @dfordoom
You seem to be assuming that women who marry older men or marry for money end up miserable. Is there any evidence for that? People with money seem to me to be remarkably happy.
Why? Have you considered the possibility that some of those women end up rich and happy? You’re also overlooking the fact that it is possible for a woman to marry an older and/or rich man and actually be in love with him. You’re making some sweeping generalisations. I don’t particularly approve or disapprove of old man/young woman pairings. I can’t see that such a marriage is anybody’s business apart from the old man and the young woman concerned. I can’t see how it harms society.
And I’m not sure that people should be expected to consider the good of society when they get married. They should certainly consider the interests of the person they’re marrying but I think that’s where their responsibility ends.
Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don’t. If you’re an alcoholic and you’re single then your personal choice has no effect on anyone else. If you’re an alcoholic and you’re married your choice probably will affect others. If you’re an alcoholic and you drink-drive you’re definitely affecting others. I don’t see how the age or the financial status of the person you choose to marry can possibly have implications for other people’s lives.
Whether society has the right (or possibly a duty) to interfere in people’s lives merely to protect people from their own folly is a tricky question. I’m inclined to think that when society starts doing that it won’t end well.
In any event, these icky marriages are no problem so long as they remain a deviation rather than the norm. In that way, it's kind of like homosexuality.Replies: @dfordoom
Not getting your three hots and a cot can be pretty miserable as well.
I think it should be the woman’s choice. If she personally thinks it’s a worthwhile trade-off then good luck to her. If she feels it’s not a worthwhile trade-off then that’s OK by me as well. Women do sometimes marry for money but nobody forces them to do so.
There are some pretty weird and creepy men on the far right. There are a few who probably would go Full Handmaid’s Tale on women if they got the chance. Fortunately nobody takes the far right (or the dissident right or the manosphere) seriously.
Peace.Replies: @dfordoom
I think it should be the woman's choice. If she personally thinks it's a worthwhile trade-off then good luck to her. If she feels it's not a worthwhile trade-off then that's OK by me as well. Women do sometimes marry for money but nobody forces them to do so.There are some pretty weird and creepy men on the far right. There are a few who probably would go Full Handmaid's Tale on women if they got the chance. Fortunately nobody takes the far right (or the dissident right or the manosphere) seriously.Replies: @Talha
A lot of them remind me of the guys from our extreme wings to be honest. Many of the brothers that challenge them online call them Incel-Qaeda.
Peace.
There do however seem to be some odd similarities between all these lunatic fringes. Look at the extreme environmentalists - they're as filled with hate as any religious or political zealots. And they talk airily about the need to reduce the global population by billions and they don't seem to be bothered by the fact that they're effectively talking about genocide.
Maybe all these assorted weird creepy guys are just guys who can't find women who will have anything to do with them. Or maybe they're borderline schizophrenics.
I'm sure there's also a small element of women who are seriously and disturbingly weird as well but women manifest weirdness differently. They get into extreme New Age stuff.
And I'm not sure that people should be expected to consider the good of society when they get married. They should certainly consider the interests of the person they're marrying but I think that's where their responsibility ends.Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. If you're an alcoholic and you're single then your personal choice has no effect on anyone else. If you're an alcoholic and you're married your choice probably will affect others. If you're an alcoholic and you drink-drive you're definitely affecting others. I don't see how the age or the financial status of the person you choose to marry can possibly have implications for other people's lives.
Whether society has the right (or possibly a duty) to interfere in people's lives merely to protect people from their own folly is a tricky question. I'm inclined to think that when society starts doing that it won't end well.Replies: @Rosie
You seem to be taking a libertarian turn here lately, Doom.
In any event, these icky marriages are no problem so long as they remain a deviation rather than the norm. In that way, it’s kind of like homosexuality.
It's not just sexual deviancy that this applies to. Nobody worries about extreme religious sects if they're a tiny minority and they're not zealously proselytising. Nobody worries about the Amish because they're 0.1% of the population and they mind their own business. If there were 20 million Amish and they started trying to impose their beliefs on non-Amish people would be seriously worried by the Amish Menace.
Back in the 60s there were neo-nazis but they were so small in numbers and so chaotic that they were mostly just ignored. Same with the Trotskyists.Yes, I'm disturbed by that as well! Mind you I still despise economic libertarianism as much as I ever did.
I think that these days I pretty much agree with the view you expressed above. Deviant behaviour is no great problem as long as the numbers are small and as long as nobody is trying to normalise the deviance. There are some seriously weird sexual fetishes. I think foot fetishism is pretty bizarre, but foot fetishists are so few in number and so closeted that they can be regarded as weird but harmless. So I'm prepared to be a social libertarian towards people like that. When they start organising Foot Fetish Pride Marches and start spreading foot fetish propaganda in schools I'll start to worry about them.
When deviants try to persuade us to accept the normalisation of their deviance I stop being a social libertarian.
Peace.Replies: @dfordoom
I guess the truth is that every religion and every political ideology will attract a small lunatic fringe of weird creepy men. Different religions and different political ideologies will tend to attract slightly different lunatic fringes.
There do however seem to be some odd similarities between all these lunatic fringes. Look at the extreme environmentalists – they’re as filled with hate as any religious or political zealots. And they talk airily about the need to reduce the global population by billions and they don’t seem to be bothered by the fact that they’re effectively talking about genocide.
Maybe all these assorted weird creepy guys are just guys who can’t find women who will have anything to do with them. Or maybe they’re borderline schizophrenics.
I’m sure there’s also a small element of women who are seriously and disturbingly weird as well but women manifest weirdness differently. They get into extreme New Age stuff.
In any event, these icky marriages are no problem so long as they remain a deviation rather than the norm. In that way, it's kind of like homosexuality.Replies: @dfordoom
Yeah I think you’re right. People who manifest deviant behaviour, even extreme deviant behaviour, are no great problem if the numbers are fairly small and they’re not trying to aggressively promote their deviant behaviour. The closeted homosexuals of the 50s were not a social problem.
It’s not just sexual deviancy that this applies to. Nobody worries about extreme religious sects if they’re a tiny minority and they’re not zealously proselytising. Nobody worries about the Amish because they’re 0.1% of the population and they mind their own business. If there were 20 million Amish and they started trying to impose their beliefs on non-Amish people would be seriously worried by the Amish Menace.
Back in the 60s there were neo-nazis but they were so small in numbers and so chaotic that they were mostly just ignored. Same with the Trotskyists.
Yes, I’m disturbed by that as well! Mind you I still despise economic libertarianism as much as I ever did.
I think that these days I pretty much agree with the view you expressed above. Deviant behaviour is no great problem as long as the numbers are small and as long as nobody is trying to normalise the deviance. There are some seriously weird sexual fetishes. I think foot fetishism is pretty bizarre, but foot fetishists are so few in number and so closeted that they can be regarded as weird but harmless. So I’m prepared to be a social libertarian towards people like that. When they start organising Foot Fetish Pride Marches and start spreading foot fetish propaganda in schools I’ll start to worry about them.
When deviants try to persuade us to accept the normalisation of their deviance I stop being a social libertarian.
If you want country IQ data David Becker’s dataset is probably the best available right now.
https://viewoniq.org/?author=2
It includes data from Lynn and Vanhanen 2012 which I am guessing is the source of the data in the comment you were responding to.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289611001413
https://viewoniq.org/?author=2
It includes data from Lynn and Vanhanen 2012 which I am guessing is the source of the data in the comment you were responding to.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289611001413Replies: @Twinkie
Thanks.