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From Pew Research, the following table ranks twenty participating countries by how accepting their populations are of “scientific research on gene editing”. Net support is calculated by taking the percentages by country who deem it “appropriate” and subtracting from them the percentages who perceive it to be “misusing technology”. Because at least a plurality in every country except for the very inegalitarian India deems such research to be bad, 19 of the 20 values are negative:

Country ProScience
1) India +32
2) South Korea -1
3) Taiwan -3
4) Singapore -9
5) Great Britain -24
6) Spain -25
7) Russia -28
8) Australia -32
8) Canada -32
10) Japan -34
10) Sweden -34
12) Netherlands -35
13) United States -37
14) Malaysia -40
15) Germany -40
16) Brazil -41
17) Poland -42
18) Italy -47
19) Czech Republic -50
20) France -59

The dragon in the room, or rather not in the room, is China, which was unfortunately not among the surveyed countries. Taiwan and Singapore are mostly ethnically Chinese, so it plausible falls in a similar range.

Whatever the Chinese public’s misgivings are, if China has not yet overtaken the US as the world leader in CRISPR patents, it will do so soon. While Western Wokeism wages war on these advancements, Asia is going to increasingly be driving and taking advantage of them. While we’re pretending people are things they are not, the Han will be busy unlocking the full human potential of their people. It’s yet another reason why the 21st will be the Chinese century.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy, Ideology, Science • Tags: Genetics, Hbd, International, Science 
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  1. Given how thoroughly the (USA) botched itself during the latter part of the 20th century, I’ll look forward to whatever hideousness the Chinese come up with.

    • Agree: nokangaroos
  2. The Chinese don’t live in superstitious fear about “playing god,” because their civilization developed independently from the influence of the Abrahamic creation myth.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    @advancedatheist


    The Chinese don’t live in superstitious fear about “playing god,” because their civilization developed independently from the influence of the Abrahamic creation myth.
     
    Rabbinical Jews, Nestorians, and Muslims have had a presence in China since at least the 7th century. The Hongwu Emperor wrote a hundred word eulogy to Islam in the late 1300s. So, as usual, you are an advanced imbecile.

    Replies: @advancedatheist

    , @Joe Paluka
    @advancedatheist

    The finest hour of Chinese genetic science will come when they can grow good quality dog meat independent of the dog. A new age of culinary excellence will open up, Beagle Burgers, Pekingese Patties and Wok the Whippet. I can hardly wait!

  3. I find it interesting that a century ago the Bolsheviks took it for granted that their grand experiment would create superhumans. Leon Trotsky in his book Literature and Revolution (1924) famously speculates what a functional communist civilization would do to the human species:

    More than that. Man at last will begin to harmonize himself in earnest. He will make it his business to achieve beauty by giving the movement of his own limbs the utmost precision, purposefulness and economy in his work, his walk and his play. He will try to master first the semiconscious and then the subconscious processes in his own organism, such as breathing, the circulation of the blood, digestion, reproduction, and, within necessary limits, he will try to subordinate them to the control of reason and will. Even purely physiologic life will become subject to collective experiments. The human species, the coagulated Homo sapiens, will once more enter into a state of radical transformation, and, in his own hands, will become an object of the most complicated methods of artificial selection and psycho-physical training. This is entirely in accord with evolution. Man first drove the dark elements out of industry and ideology, by displacing barbarian routine by scientific technique, and religion by science. Afterwards he drove the unconscious out of politics, by overthrowing monarchy and class with democracy and rationalist parliamentarianism and then with the clear and open Soviet dictatorship. The blind elements have settled most heavily in economic relations, but man is driving them out from there also, by means of the Socialist organization of economic life. This makes it possible to reconstruct fundamentally the traditional family life. Finally, the nature of man himself is hidden in the deepest and darkest corner of the unconscious, of the elemental, of the sub-soil. Is it not self-evident that the greatest efforts of investigative thought and of creative initiative will be in that direction? The human race will not have ceased to crawl on all fours before God, kings and capital, in order later to submit humbly before the dark laws of heredity and a blind sexual selection! Emancipated man will want to attain a greater equilibrium in the work of his organs and a more proportional developing and wearing out of his tissues, in order to reduce the fear of death to a rational reaction of the organism towards danger. There can be no doubt that man’s extreme anatomical and physiological disharmony, that is, the extreme disproportion in the growth and wearing out of organs and tissues, give the life instinct the form of a pinched, morbid and hysterical fear of death, which darkens reason and which feeds the stupid and humiliating fantasies about life after death.

    Man will make it his purpose to master his own feelings, to raise his instincts to the heights of consciousness, to make them transparent, to extend the wires of his will into hidden recesses, and thereby to raise himself to a new plane, to create a higher social biologic type, or, if you please, a superman.

    It is difficult to predict the extent of self-government which the man of the future may reach or the heights to which he may carry his technique. Social construction and psycho-physical self-education will become two aspects of one and the same process. All the arts – literature, drama, painting, music and architecture will lend this process beautiful form. More correctly, the shell in which the cultural construction and self-education of Communist man will be enclosed, will develop all the vital elements of contemporary art to the highest point. Man will become immeasurably stronger, wiser and subtler; his body will become more harmonized, his movements more rhythmic, his voice more musical. The forms of life will become dynamically dramatic. The average human type will rise to the heights of an Aristotle, a Goethe, or a Marx. And above this ridge new peaks will rise.

    Contrast that with the current leftists’ romanticism which celebrates the stupid, the ugly, the defective and the broken.

    • Replies: @goldgettin
    @advancedatheist

    stupid ugly defective broken... is what they are.

    that is why it's left, it's not right.

    which is more fraught with danger? I do not know.

    , @Realist
    @advancedatheist


    Contrast that with the current leftists’ romanticism which celebrates the stupid, the ugly, the defective and the broken.
     
    True, but the religious rightists are against genetic engineering for equally stupid reasons.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @John Johnson

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @advancedatheist

    Indeed, the idealized Soviet Man looks nothing like the average CHAZ resident.

    Replies: @RSDB

  4. Who knows where the Chinese are going? It is worth remembering how formidable the USSR looked in 1980

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Leander Starr

    The collapse of the Soviet Union was partly as a result of Gorbachev going on a trip to China where masses of democracy protesters humiliated the Chinese leadership that were planning a USSR China rapprochement sumit, by coming to the Russian Embassy and appealing to him. Days later–after Gorby had left China– came the Tiananmen Square massacre. As he told associates, Gorbachev thought anything better that to have a Tiananmen in Red Square, so he did not crush dissent in the way he saw happen in 1989 China. Having abjured the use of force, Gorbachev was unable to control the centrifugal manifestations of the reform process he had set in motion.

    Reagan initiated Star Wars while he cut off the flow of US technology to the USSR; all they got was grain. Obama gave China fracking technology, and Biden has repeatedly of late that China is not any real competition for the US. H. R. McMaster said on the last day of the Trump state visit to China, Premier Li Keqiang, a trained economist, lectured the Americans that “China, having already developed its industrial and technological base, no longer needed the United States. … the U.S. role in the future global economy would merely be to provide China with raw materials, agricultural products, and energy to fuel its production”. It goes without saying that is the opposite of what the Chinese are planning.

    Although much too cunning to ever say, China's intention is using their unbeatable economies of scale and work discipline to out compete America in commercial laissez faire. But termite-like efficiency is not enough, they need to stay abreast of cutting edge technology. For innovation, a society requires ‘autonomy, diversity, failure tolerance and the recombination of knowledge’ .


    Having covered adaptive landscapes in biology, he asks if this metaphor can have wider use. It can in chemistry, where there are many possible solutions to the problem of arranging atoms or molecules into larger structures. And in computing, such as delivery companies finding the optimal route for their fleet of vehicles. But Wagner even sees parallels in how artists, writers, or composers work, comparing what they do to a form of creative problem-solving in a mental landscape. Here too, finding better solutions sometimes requires big leaps, which can be brought about by play, daydreaming, or other means.
     
    Biden is right that America has this partly because of its culture and immigration. But it also is dependant on DNA of the traditional ethnic majority of the US. While high, Chinese intelligence was selected for through the Imperial examination system, which rewarded Eight-legged essay type thinking. But China can get access to the fruits of such a society without the political inconvenience of allowing those un-Confucian freedoms.

    China is going to offshore its R&D to America and just shake down US corporations who want in on the burgeoning home market of China. he domination of Wall Street finance will go the way of Britain’s supremacy. China is going to be the centre of the world economy and the idea that Wall Street will retain its status as wealth allocation and asset pricing hub after that happens is dubious. New York will be like the City of London is now: home to ‘family office’ wealth management for billionaires’ private fortunes. Shanghai and Shenzhen will be where the action will be.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    , @John Johnson
    @Leander Starr

    Who knows where the Chinese are going? It is worth remembering how formidable the USSR looked in 1980

    Yea but the USSR was still trying to make Communism work. An evil empire certainly but they were fiddling with the economics of Communism up until the collapse.

    The Chinese don't care about Marxist theory or serving the proletariat. They are just a big brother type government now. They aren't at risk of economic collapse.

    , @but an humble craftsman
    @Leander Starr

    Upper Volta with nuclear weapons. (Helmut Schmidt)

    , @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @Leander Starr

    The Chinese also have far fewer problems with multiculturalism (both racial and practical) than the USSR had. Also, ask yourself how it is that the USSR never successfully mass produced quality consumer products that were marketable outside its own boundaries?

    Replies: @advancedatheist, @John Johnson

  5. @advancedatheist
    I find it interesting that a century ago the Bolsheviks took it for granted that their grand experiment would create superhumans. Leon Trotsky in his book Literature and Revolution (1924) famously speculates what a functional communist civilization would do to the human species:

    More than that. Man at last will begin to harmonize himself in earnest. He will make it his business to achieve beauty by giving the movement of his own limbs the utmost precision, purposefulness and economy in his work, his walk and his play. He will try to master first the semiconscious and then the subconscious processes in his own organism, such as breathing, the circulation of the blood, digestion, reproduction, and, within necessary limits, he will try to subordinate them to the control of reason and will. Even purely physiologic life will become subject to collective experiments. The human species, the coagulated Homo sapiens, will once more enter into a state of radical transformation, and, in his own hands, will become an object of the most complicated methods of artificial selection and psycho-physical training. This is entirely in accord with evolution. Man first drove the dark elements out of industry and ideology, by displacing barbarian routine by scientific technique, and religion by science. Afterwards he drove the unconscious out of politics, by overthrowing monarchy and class with democracy and rationalist parliamentarianism and then with the clear and open Soviet dictatorship. The blind elements have settled most heavily in economic relations, but man is driving them out from there also, by means of the Socialist organization of economic life. This makes it possible to reconstruct fundamentally the traditional family life. Finally, the nature of man himself is hidden in the deepest and darkest corner of the unconscious, of the elemental, of the sub-soil. Is it not self-evident that the greatest efforts of investigative thought and of creative initiative will be in that direction? The human race will not have ceased to crawl on all fours before God, kings and capital, in order later to submit humbly before the dark laws of heredity and a blind sexual selection! Emancipated man will want to attain a greater equilibrium in the work of his organs and a more proportional developing and wearing out of his tissues, in order to reduce the fear of death to a rational reaction of the organism towards danger. There can be no doubt that man’s extreme anatomical and physiological disharmony, that is, the extreme disproportion in the growth and wearing out of organs and tissues, give the life instinct the form of a pinched, morbid and hysterical fear of death, which darkens reason and which feeds the stupid and humiliating fantasies about life after death.

    Man will make it his purpose to master his own feelings, to raise his instincts to the heights of consciousness, to make them transparent, to extend the wires of his will into hidden recesses, and thereby to raise himself to a new plane, to create a higher social biologic type, or, if you please, a superman.

    It is difficult to predict the extent of self-government which the man of the future may reach or the heights to which he may carry his technique. Social construction and psycho-physical self-education will become two aspects of one and the same process. All the arts – literature, drama, painting, music and architecture will lend this process beautiful form. More correctly, the shell in which the cultural construction and self-education of Communist man will be enclosed, will develop all the vital elements of contemporary art to the highest point. Man will become immeasurably stronger, wiser and subtler; his body will become more harmonized, his movements more rhythmic, his voice more musical. The forms of life will become dynamically dramatic. The average human type will rise to the heights of an Aristotle, a Goethe, or a Marx. And above this ridge new peaks will rise.
     
    Contrast that with the current leftists' romanticism which celebrates the stupid, the ugly, the defective and the broken.

    Replies: @goldgettin, @Realist, @Audacious Epigone

    stupid ugly defective broken… is what they are.

    that is why it’s left, it’s not right.

    which is more fraught with danger? I do not know.

  6. Whatever the Chinese public’s misgivings are, if China has not yet overtaken the US as the world leader in CRISPR patents, it will do so soon. While Western Wokeism wages war on these advancements, Asia is going to increasingly be driving and taking advantage of them. While we’re pretending people are things they are not, the Han will be busy unlocking the full human potential of their people. It’s yet another reason why the 21st will be the Chinese century.

    I for one welcome our new two-headed extra-tall flame-retardant overlords…

    Actual footage from NATO raid on Chinese CRISPR lab, c. 2033

    Edit: I mean, seriously, unless you’re our gracious host’s gracious host, you have to believe either that the Chinese aren’t able to do serious virology without accidentally letting the virus leave the lab on someone’s Hawaiian shirt after casual Friday drinks, or that the Chinese aren’t able to do urban civilisation itself without their filthy cities becoming a petri dish for strange new cross-pollinated super-AIDSes – and these are the people going to bring about The New Man? It is to laugh

  7. There’s strong evidence that China dislikes gene editing:

    On 30 December 2018, the Shenzhen Nanshan District People’s Court sentenced He Jiankui to three years in prison and with a fine of 3 million RMB (US$430,000). Among the collaborators, only two were indicted – Zhang Renli of the Guangdong Academy of Medical Sciences and Guangdong General Hospital, received a two-year prison sentence and a 1-million RMB fine, and Qin Jinzhou of the Southern University of Science and Technology received an 18-month prison sentence and a 500,000 RMB fine.

  8. A guess about India. It’s a very racist place, there’s huge ethnic and class differences, LOTS of lower caste folks that lots of Indians don’t like.

    I had a friend who went on a Christian mission to India. He said he met multiple people who had no problem saying that they admired Hitler.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @BCB232

    As Talha may be gently hinting, India knows—even if it doesn't advertise—that it has the ongoing legacy of thousands of years Jātic inbreeding, so something that seems to hold the possibility of a rapid and painless way out of these dysgenic blind alleys will naturally appeal to India.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

    , @Wyatt
    @BCB232


    He said he met multiple people who had no problem saying that they admired Hitler.
     
    I don't know why they would admire him. He invaded Russia during the winter, he trusted the English, dismissed America as a force of reckoning and cared more about his wunderwaffe than securing a nuke. Those mistakes were too critical for him to be considered a leader worthy of admiration, but aside from those foibles, I don't see any other problems with his leadership or decisions.
    :P

    Replies: @BCB232

  9. That is very interesting about India. I do wonder how much the residual influence of the centuries-old caste system has to do with the numbers.

    Peace.

  10. Perhaps surprisingly, given existing tropes, but Chinese numbers are similar to American ones: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/who-will-dominate-the-crispr-arms-race/

    About 62% of Chinese support genetic edits to children likely to develop a fatal genetic disease, versus 60% of Americans who would change a baby’s genes to reduce of the risk of a serious disease that could occur over the child’s life.

    However, only about 23% of Chinese would support gene editing for improving intelligence, versus 19% of Americans.

    23% support for intelligence edits is just the upper range of Europeans:

    For whatever reason, it seems to be Third World publics which are more accepting of it (as well as vaccines – there might be a correlation).

    • Agree: Twinkie
    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Anatoly Karlin


    Perhaps surprisingly, given existing tropes, but Chinese numbers are similar to American ones
     
    And more South Koreans say that using genetic engineering to make babies more intelligent is misuse of technology than the highly Catholic Polish people.

    Contrary to the said tropes, East Asians seem to only support genetic research for better medical care, not for making super babies, let alone altering human nature. The only odd man out seems to be India (though Malaysia is surprisingly close).

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Thanks Anatoly, I was just about to comment that you had covered this too, and to mention the 23% figure from 2018 that you cite.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/black-clinics-of-kolkatta

    OTOH, your commenter The Spirit of Enoch Powell points to Richard Lynn's 2001 Eugenics: A reassessment, wherein the "eugenic objective of genetic counseling" was endorsed by fewer than 1/3 of the geneticists and physicians in the larger Western democracies, but was endorsed by 100% of those in China.

    Replies: @RSDB

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I don't see answers from Africans, especially re IQ enhancement....

    https://media.tenor.com/images/47e8e0c9cfb109e43a327d30f31c3408/tenor.gif

  11. Also from Pew…off topic though…but quite alarming.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    We Effie’ (iffen’ ?) hate marriage too:
    https://www.twitter.com/lilgidding/status/1337986456241930242

    • Replies: @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @Talha

    The neo-liberal conditioning is going well, the West is more than halfway there to creating the perfect worker unit.

    Replies: @Talha

    , @RSDB
    @Talha

    Certainly no self-respecting Catholic or Orthodox Christian would say that "being married [is] essential for a man or woman to live a fulfilling life"!

    Neither would Protestants, if they thought our Blessed Lord lived a "fulfilling life", but, to be fair, I'm not really sure I know what that phrase means.

    That knocks out a pretty large section of the population; still, it is depressing that considerably more people seem to think "being in a committed relationship" is essential than do for "being married".

    Not to mention "having a lot of money".

    Replies: @Talha

  12. @Anatoly Karlin
    Perhaps surprisingly, given existing tropes, but Chinese numbers are similar to American ones: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/who-will-dominate-the-crispr-arms-race/

    About 62% of Chinese support genetic edits to children likely to develop a fatal genetic disease, versus 60% of Americans who would change a baby’s genes to reduce of the risk of a serious disease that could occur over the child’s life.

    However, only about 23% of Chinese would support gene editing for improving intelligence, versus 19% of Americans.
     
    23% support for intelligence edits is just the upper range of Europeans:

    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/poll-gene-editing-babies-2020.png

    For whatever reason, it seems to be Third World publics which are more accepting of it (as well as vaccines - there might be a correlation).

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Almost Missouri, @Bardon Kaldian

    Perhaps surprisingly, given existing tropes, but Chinese numbers are similar to American ones

    And more South Koreans say that using genetic engineering to make babies more intelligent is misuse of technology than the highly Catholic Polish people.

    Contrary to the said tropes, East Asians seem to only support genetic research for better medical care, not for making super babies, let alone altering human nature. The only odd man out seems to be India (though Malaysia is surprisingly close).

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Twinkie

    If gene editing for various traits becomes viable and widely accessible, though, do you really think people won't incorporate intelligence into the process? They'll pay $50k/year to get their kids into the top preschools, after all!

  13. While we’re pretending people are things they are not, the Han will be busy unlocking the full human potential of their people. It’s yet another reason why the 21st will be the Chinese century.

    Well said. I believe most of the rejection in Western countries is due to the Christian religion.

  14. @BCB232
    A guess about India. It's a very racist place, there's huge ethnic and class differences, LOTS of lower caste folks that lots of Indians don't like.

    I had a friend who went on a Christian mission to India. He said he met multiple people who had no problem saying that they admired Hitler.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Wyatt

    As Talha may be gently hinting, India knows—even if it doesn’t advertise—that it has the ongoing legacy of thousands of years Jātic inbreeding, so something that seems to hold the possibility of a rapid and painless way out of these dysgenic blind alleys will naturally appeal to India.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
    @Almost Missouri


    so something that seems to hold the possibility of a rapid and painless way out of these dysgenic blind alleys will naturally appeal to India.
     
    Beautifully articulated and yes vast swathes of the Indian demography are dysgenic sewages. You can't blame them for wanting to escape the iron laws of hereditary. The good news is that they are aware of it there's no fake pride involved.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  15. @advancedatheist
    I find it interesting that a century ago the Bolsheviks took it for granted that their grand experiment would create superhumans. Leon Trotsky in his book Literature and Revolution (1924) famously speculates what a functional communist civilization would do to the human species:

    More than that. Man at last will begin to harmonize himself in earnest. He will make it his business to achieve beauty by giving the movement of his own limbs the utmost precision, purposefulness and economy in his work, his walk and his play. He will try to master first the semiconscious and then the subconscious processes in his own organism, such as breathing, the circulation of the blood, digestion, reproduction, and, within necessary limits, he will try to subordinate them to the control of reason and will. Even purely physiologic life will become subject to collective experiments. The human species, the coagulated Homo sapiens, will once more enter into a state of radical transformation, and, in his own hands, will become an object of the most complicated methods of artificial selection and psycho-physical training. This is entirely in accord with evolution. Man first drove the dark elements out of industry and ideology, by displacing barbarian routine by scientific technique, and religion by science. Afterwards he drove the unconscious out of politics, by overthrowing monarchy and class with democracy and rationalist parliamentarianism and then with the clear and open Soviet dictatorship. The blind elements have settled most heavily in economic relations, but man is driving them out from there also, by means of the Socialist organization of economic life. This makes it possible to reconstruct fundamentally the traditional family life. Finally, the nature of man himself is hidden in the deepest and darkest corner of the unconscious, of the elemental, of the sub-soil. Is it not self-evident that the greatest efforts of investigative thought and of creative initiative will be in that direction? The human race will not have ceased to crawl on all fours before God, kings and capital, in order later to submit humbly before the dark laws of heredity and a blind sexual selection! Emancipated man will want to attain a greater equilibrium in the work of his organs and a more proportional developing and wearing out of his tissues, in order to reduce the fear of death to a rational reaction of the organism towards danger. There can be no doubt that man’s extreme anatomical and physiological disharmony, that is, the extreme disproportion in the growth and wearing out of organs and tissues, give the life instinct the form of a pinched, morbid and hysterical fear of death, which darkens reason and which feeds the stupid and humiliating fantasies about life after death.

    Man will make it his purpose to master his own feelings, to raise his instincts to the heights of consciousness, to make them transparent, to extend the wires of his will into hidden recesses, and thereby to raise himself to a new plane, to create a higher social biologic type, or, if you please, a superman.

    It is difficult to predict the extent of self-government which the man of the future may reach or the heights to which he may carry his technique. Social construction and psycho-physical self-education will become two aspects of one and the same process. All the arts – literature, drama, painting, music and architecture will lend this process beautiful form. More correctly, the shell in which the cultural construction and self-education of Communist man will be enclosed, will develop all the vital elements of contemporary art to the highest point. Man will become immeasurably stronger, wiser and subtler; his body will become more harmonized, his movements more rhythmic, his voice more musical. The forms of life will become dynamically dramatic. The average human type will rise to the heights of an Aristotle, a Goethe, or a Marx. And above this ridge new peaks will rise.
     
    Contrast that with the current leftists' romanticism which celebrates the stupid, the ugly, the defective and the broken.

    Replies: @goldgettin, @Realist, @Audacious Epigone

    Contrast that with the current leftists’ romanticism which celebrates the stupid, the ugly, the defective and the broken.

    True, but the religious rightists are against genetic engineering for equally stupid reasons.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Realist

    "...blame both sides..." zzzzzzzzz

    C'mon man, that's a blue-check Twitter-tier take.

    It's not "equally stupid" if one side rationally believes that a higher intelligence knows better than they do, while the other side irrationally believes that they are the highest intelligence yet still embraces the manifestly stupid, ugly, defective and broken. Talk about a self-own.

    Replies: @John Johnson, @Realist

    , @John Johnson
    @Realist

    True, but the religious rightists are against genetic engineering for equally stupid reasons.

    They don't have any serious influence into such areas and are ruthlessly mocked and denigrated by the media. The religious right has pretty much retreated and is used more as a routine punching bag for the liberal establishment.

    Meanwhile the same liberal media tells the public that race doesn't exist because science says so and White people are simply to blame for all inequality. Anyone who questions this narrative in public is treated like a mass murderer.

    The left is terrified of genetic engineering because they are afraid of what the public will learn, not what will become. They have most Whites convinced that race is only superficial and blank slate is for the most part true. Genetic engineering research could easily undermine their work.

    Replies: @Realist, @Audacious Epigone

  16. @Anatoly Karlin
    Perhaps surprisingly, given existing tropes, but Chinese numbers are similar to American ones: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/who-will-dominate-the-crispr-arms-race/

    About 62% of Chinese support genetic edits to children likely to develop a fatal genetic disease, versus 60% of Americans who would change a baby’s genes to reduce of the risk of a serious disease that could occur over the child’s life.

    However, only about 23% of Chinese would support gene editing for improving intelligence, versus 19% of Americans.
     
    23% support for intelligence edits is just the upper range of Europeans:

    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/poll-gene-editing-babies-2020.png

    For whatever reason, it seems to be Third World publics which are more accepting of it (as well as vaccines - there might be a correlation).

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Almost Missouri, @Bardon Kaldian

    Thanks Anatoly, I was just about to comment that you had covered this too, and to mention the 23% figure from 2018 that you cite.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/black-clinics-of-kolkatta

    OTOH, your commenter The Spirit of Enoch Powell points to Richard Lynn’s 2001 Eugenics: A reassessment, wherein the “eugenic objective of genetic counseling” was endorsed by fewer than 1/3 of the geneticists and physicians in the larger Western democracies, but was endorsed by 100% of those in China.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Almost Missouri

    I'm not offering this as an explanation, because I don't know enough, but the word eugenics may not mean the same thing to different people, nor, more importantly, have the same connotations.

    The objective of genetic counseling is, generally, to avoid certain defects; most people in the West would not use the word "eugenics" to refer to that, perhaps because of the very unpleasant associations the word has in our cultural context, while, say, UR columnist Steve Sailer would.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

  17. @Realist
    @advancedatheist


    Contrast that with the current leftists’ romanticism which celebrates the stupid, the ugly, the defective and the broken.
     
    True, but the religious rightists are against genetic engineering for equally stupid reasons.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @John Johnson

    “…blame both sides…” zzzzzzzzz

    C’mon man, that’s a blue-check Twitter-tier take.

    It’s not “equally stupid” if one side rationally believes that a higher intelligence knows better than they do, while the other side irrationally believes that they are the highest intelligence yet still embraces the manifestly stupid, ugly, defective and broken. Talk about a self-own.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    @Almost Missouri

    It’s not “equally stupid” if one side rationally believes that a higher intelligence knows better than they do, while the other side irrationally believes that they are the highest intelligence yet still embraces the manifestly stupid, ugly, defective and broken. Talk about a self-own.

    The Western mainstream left should never be contrasted with Christianity in the same context as the latter are not running the government and schools while professing secular adherence. Christianity is voluntary while we are forced to support the liberal religion with our paychecks.

    Liberals tell us that they "love the science" and then ex-communicate anyone that talks about race. A female researcher actually had her nose broken for giving a talk on racial differences. A professor had to move since his family was being given death threats.

    These liberals privately like to think it is just a white lie we should all tell when it is in fact a grand lie that infects and corrupts everything. Economics is entirely related to race and yet this billion dollar area of study has to pretend that race is merely circumstantial. Purely window dressing. The San bushmen would be developing vaccines under the right circumstances. Why aren't they? Must be racism!

    , @Realist
    @Almost Missouri


    It’s not “equally stupid” if one side rationally believes that a higher intelligence knows better than they do, while the other side irrationally believes that they are the highest intelligence yet still embraces the manifestly stupid, ugly, defective and broken.
     
    It is not rational to believe in something that has no proof of existence. You're spouting religious dogma.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

  18. @advancedatheist
    The Chinese don't live in superstitious fear about "playing god," because their civilization developed independently from the influence of the Abrahamic creation myth.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein, @Joe Paluka

    The Chinese don’t live in superstitious fear about “playing god,” because their civilization developed independently from the influence of the Abrahamic creation myth.

    Rabbinical Jews, Nestorians, and Muslims have had a presence in China since at least the 7th century. The Hongwu Emperor wrote a hundred word eulogy to Islam in the late 1300s. So, as usual, you are an advanced imbecile.

    • Replies: @advancedatheist
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Hearing about a foreign religion's beliefs doesn't necessarily translate into an influence on your own beliefs. The Jesuit missionaries who went to China realized that they faced an extraordinarily hard challenge in Christianizing such a radically different culture, and their project clearly failed.

    Besides, I've heard about Catholicism myself for as long as I can remember, yet I still view it an alien cult, even if my ancestors belonged to it a few generations back before the Reformation.

    It probably also sucks for Western Christians to realize that Buddhism has started to make inroads in the West. Buddhism has the advantage over Christianity in that it makes empirically testable claims, and that these claims don't even depend on arguments over whether the Buddha existed historically.

    Replies: @Athletic and Whitesplosive, @John Johnson

  19. If I recall, private tutors were once illegal in South Korea because it was felt that they gave the wealthy an unfair advantage.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @songbird

    Gene editing could potentially be the equivalent of giving everyone a private tutor, though.

  20. @Leander Starr
    Who knows where the Chinese are going? It is worth remembering how formidable the USSR looked in 1980

    Replies: @Sean, @John Johnson, @but an humble craftsman, @Jim Bob Lassiter

    The collapse of the Soviet Union was partly as a result of Gorbachev going on a trip to China where masses of democracy protesters humiliated the Chinese leadership that were planning a USSR China rapprochement sumit, by coming to the Russian Embassy and appealing to him. Days later–after Gorby had left China– came the Tiananmen Square massacre. As he told associates, Gorbachev thought anything better that to have a Tiananmen in Red Square, so he did not crush dissent in the way he saw happen in 1989 China. Having abjured the use of force, Gorbachev was unable to control the centrifugal manifestations of the reform process he had set in motion.

    Reagan initiated Star Wars while he cut off the flow of US technology to the USSR; all they got was grain. Obama gave China fracking technology, and Biden has repeatedly of late that China is not any real competition for the US. H. R. McMaster said on the last day of the Trump state visit to China, Premier Li Keqiang, a trained economist, lectured the Americans that “China, having already developed its industrial and technological base, no longer needed the United States. … the U.S. role in the future global economy would merely be to provide China with raw materials, agricultural products, and energy to fuel its production”. It goes without saying that is the opposite of what the Chinese are planning.

    Although much too cunning to ever say, China’s intention is using their unbeatable economies of scale and work discipline to out compete America in commercial laissez faire. But termite-like efficiency is not enough, they need to stay abreast of cutting edge technology. For innovation, a society requires ‘autonomy, diversity, failure tolerance and the recombination of knowledge’ .

    Having covered adaptive landscapes in biology, he asks if this metaphor can have wider use. It can in chemistry, where there are many possible solutions to the problem of arranging atoms or molecules into larger structures. And in computing, such as delivery companies finding the optimal route for their fleet of vehicles. But Wagner even sees parallels in how artists, writers, or composers work, comparing what they do to a form of creative problem-solving in a mental landscape. Here too, finding better solutions sometimes requires big leaps, which can be brought about by play, daydreaming, or other means.

    Biden is right that America has this partly because of its culture and immigration. But it also is dependant on DNA of the traditional ethnic majority of the US. While high, Chinese intelligence was selected for through the Imperial examination system, which rewarded Eight-legged essay type thinking. But China can get access to the fruits of such a society without the political inconvenience of allowing those un-Confucian freedoms.

    China is going to offshore its R&D to America and just shake down US corporations who want in on the burgeoning home market of China. he domination of Wall Street finance will go the way of Britain’s supremacy. China is going to be the centre of the world economy and the idea that Wall Street will retain its status as wealth allocation and asset pricing hub after that happens is dubious. New York will be like the City of London is now: home to ‘family office’ wealth management for billionaires’ private fortunes. Shanghai and Shenzhen will be where the action will be.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Sean

    This is a really interesting perspective, thanks. What happens to the US dollar as this plays out?

  21. @Leander Starr
    Who knows where the Chinese are going? It is worth remembering how formidable the USSR looked in 1980

    Replies: @Sean, @John Johnson, @but an humble craftsman, @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Who knows where the Chinese are going? It is worth remembering how formidable the USSR looked in 1980

    Yea but the USSR was still trying to make Communism work. An evil empire certainly but they were fiddling with the economics of Communism up until the collapse.

    The Chinese don’t care about Marxist theory or serving the proletariat. They are just a big brother type government now. They aren’t at risk of economic collapse.

    • Agree: John Achterhof
  22. @Almost Missouri
    @Realist

    "...blame both sides..." zzzzzzzzz

    C'mon man, that's a blue-check Twitter-tier take.

    It's not "equally stupid" if one side rationally believes that a higher intelligence knows better than they do, while the other side irrationally believes that they are the highest intelligence yet still embraces the manifestly stupid, ugly, defective and broken. Talk about a self-own.

    Replies: @John Johnson, @Realist

    It’s not “equally stupid” if one side rationally believes that a higher intelligence knows better than they do, while the other side irrationally believes that they are the highest intelligence yet still embraces the manifestly stupid, ugly, defective and broken. Talk about a self-own.

    The Western mainstream left should never be contrasted with Christianity in the same context as the latter are not running the government and schools while professing secular adherence. Christianity is voluntary while we are forced to support the liberal religion with our paychecks.

    Liberals tell us that they “love the science” and then ex-communicate anyone that talks about race. A female researcher actually had her nose broken for giving a talk on racial differences. A professor had to move since his family was being given death threats.

    These liberals privately like to think it is just a white lie we should all tell when it is in fact a grand lie that infects and corrupts everything. Economics is entirely related to race and yet this billion dollar area of study has to pretend that race is merely circumstantial. Purely window dressing. The San bushmen would be developing vaccines under the right circumstances. Why aren’t they? Must be racism!

  23. @BCB232
    A guess about India. It's a very racist place, there's huge ethnic and class differences, LOTS of lower caste folks that lots of Indians don't like.

    I had a friend who went on a Christian mission to India. He said he met multiple people who had no problem saying that they admired Hitler.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Wyatt

    He said he met multiple people who had no problem saying that they admired Hitler.

    I don’t know why they would admire him. He invaded Russia during the winter, he trusted the English, dismissed America as a force of reckoning and cared more about his wunderwaffe than securing a nuke. Those mistakes were too critical for him to be considered a leader worthy of admiration, but aside from those foibles, I don’t see any other problems with his leadership or decisions.
    😛

    • Replies: @BCB232
    @Wyatt

    The individuals from India said that they admired him because he "stood up for his people" or something like that. This is what my Christian friend told me.

  24. @Realist
    @advancedatheist


    Contrast that with the current leftists’ romanticism which celebrates the stupid, the ugly, the defective and the broken.
     
    True, but the religious rightists are against genetic engineering for equally stupid reasons.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @John Johnson

    True, but the religious rightists are against genetic engineering for equally stupid reasons.

    They don’t have any serious influence into such areas and are ruthlessly mocked and denigrated by the media. The religious right has pretty much retreated and is used more as a routine punching bag for the liberal establishment.

    Meanwhile the same liberal media tells the public that race doesn’t exist because science says so and White people are simply to blame for all inequality. Anyone who questions this narrative in public is treated like a mass murderer.

    The left is terrified of genetic engineering because they are afraid of what the public will learn, not what will become. They have most Whites convinced that race is only superficial and blank slate is for the most part true. Genetic engineering research could easily undermine their work.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @Realist
    @John Johnson


    Meanwhile the same liberal media tells the public that race doesn’t exist because science says so and White people are simply to blame for all inequality. Anyone who questions this narrative in public is treated like a mass murderer.
     
    Yes, both sides eschew the science that doesn't fit their narrative.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    @John Johnson

    It could undermine their work, but it could also up new possibilities they'll find irresistible. Genetic engineering does hold the promise of greater egalitarianism, but it requires admitting human biodiversity is a real thing first.

  25. Eugenics was once considered valid and accepted science.

  26. If human gene editing becomes a practical reality, the goal will NOT be to unlock the potential of the average person. The goal will be to turn the average person into a domestic animal, docile and hard working. This has been the great goal of the rich ever since civilization started, and they have ever been frustrated. No matter how much they step on little people. and seem to be keeping the lid on, the little people keep rebelling or at least causing enough friction that they are a bother to keep in line. Gene editing people will solve that problem once and for all. Who will need slavery, when our descendants (not the elites of course) will be born and bred to that status naturally?

    Be afraid. Be very afraid.

    • Thanks: joe2.5
    • Replies: @Talha
    @TG


    If human gene editing becomes a practical reality, the goal will NOT be to unlock the potential of the average person. The goal will be to turn the average person into a domestic animal, docile and hard working.
     
    From Brave New World to Gattacca, this has been the proposed future. That this leads to castes rather than abolishes them due to who has access to the technology and who doesn’t. I guess we may be looking to India to see the direction things go within our lifetime; will they use it to final toss the caste system or will it be even more rigorously established...I don’t know, but it’ll be interesting to find out.

    Peace.

    Replies: @RSDB, @iffen

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @TG

    If they're able to make Sisyphus enjoy pushing the boulder, though, is it really that bad?

  27. @TG
    If human gene editing becomes a practical reality, the goal will NOT be to unlock the potential of the average person. The goal will be to turn the average person into a domestic animal, docile and hard working. This has been the great goal of the rich ever since civilization started, and they have ever been frustrated. No matter how much they step on little people. and seem to be keeping the lid on, the little people keep rebelling or at least causing enough friction that they are a bother to keep in line. Gene editing people will solve that problem once and for all. Who will need slavery, when our descendants (not the elites of course) will be born and bred to that status naturally?

    Be afraid. Be very afraid.

    Replies: @Talha, @Audacious Epigone

    If human gene editing becomes a practical reality, the goal will NOT be to unlock the potential of the average person. The goal will be to turn the average person into a domestic animal, docile and hard working.

    From Brave New World to Gattacca, this has been the proposed future. That this leads to castes rather than abolishes them due to who has access to the technology and who doesn’t. I guess we may be looking to India to see the direction things go within our lifetime; will they use it to final toss the caste system or will it be even more rigorously established…I don’t know, but it’ll be interesting to find out.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Talha

    From a feasibility standpoint, "unlocking the potential of the average person" doesn't sound like the easiest thing to do out of the selection of things being proposed.

    Replies: @iffen

    , @iffen
    @Talha

    From Brave New World to Gattacca, this has been the proposed future.

    Sometimes, in my crazier moments I wonder if I might be an imperfectly manufactured Gamma; that I'm not supposed to know some of the stuff that I know. Then, I wonder what would be the methods that they would use to detect my existence and locate me. That's when I do things like commenting under a tag like iffen.

    effing ≠ iffen

    Replies: @Talha

  28. Honestly, “gene editing” and things like that can be used for good or for bad things. Given human nature and history, and the recent plans of our elites, probably more bad things. So, not a great fan. There is a natural way to keep and develop “good genes”, we just seem to have forgotten how it works.

    The Indians probably like the idea because they have so many castes already, so from that to Alfa-Beta-Epsilon Brave New World is just a step.

  29. The current ChiCom government model has always been willing to engage in massive “scientifically based” social and biological experiments. These experiments start out gung ho and end in disaster. A prime example is the “one child” policy, which has currently at least hobbled, if not crippled, China from a demographic perspective.

    Rumors are that China is working on experiments to produce “super soldiers”. A back story to an early Heinlein scifi novella predicted exactly this. The results Heinlein imagined, needless to say, were not good.

    Engineering the as yet poorly understood human genome is still a place where only fools choose to tread.

    • Agree: Dissident
  30. @Leander Starr
    Who knows where the Chinese are going? It is worth remembering how formidable the USSR looked in 1980

    Replies: @Sean, @John Johnson, @but an humble craftsman, @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Upper Volta with nuclear weapons. (Helmut Schmidt)

  31. @Talha
    Also from Pew...off topic though...but quite alarming.

    Peace.

    We Effie’ (iffen’ ?) hate marriage too:
    https://www.twitter.com/lilgidding/status/1337986456241930242

    Replies: @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @RSDB

    The neo-liberal conditioning is going well, the West is more than halfway there to creating the perfect worker unit.

    • Replies: @Talha
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Each man a cog and every cog in its place.

    Peace.

    It could be argued that the West has to catch up with the Far East in this regard. Japan being an interesting case study.

    Replies: @RSDB, @Polemos

  32. @Intelligent Dasein
    @advancedatheist


    The Chinese don’t live in superstitious fear about “playing god,” because their civilization developed independently from the influence of the Abrahamic creation myth.
     
    Rabbinical Jews, Nestorians, and Muslims have had a presence in China since at least the 7th century. The Hongwu Emperor wrote a hundred word eulogy to Islam in the late 1300s. So, as usual, you are an advanced imbecile.

    Replies: @advancedatheist

    Hearing about a foreign religion’s beliefs doesn’t necessarily translate into an influence on your own beliefs. The Jesuit missionaries who went to China realized that they faced an extraordinarily hard challenge in Christianizing such a radically different culture, and their project clearly failed.

    Besides, I’ve heard about Catholicism myself for as long as I can remember, yet I still view it an alien cult, even if my ancestors belonged to it a few generations back before the Reformation.

    It probably also sucks for Western Christians to realize that Buddhism has started to make inroads in the West. Buddhism has the advantage over Christianity in that it makes empirically testable claims, and that these claims don’t even depend on arguments over whether the Buddha existed historically.

    • Replies: @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    @advancedatheist


    It probably also sucks for Western Christians to realize that Buddhism has started to make inroads in the West. Buddhism has the advantage over Christianity in that it makes empirically testable claims, and that these claims don’t even depend on arguments over whether the Buddha existed historically
     
    It must really burn you up that atheists are such a genetic and social dead end that they are consistently dying off in favor of more fulfilling religions. Christianity has the advantage over atheism in that it actually makes materially self-consistent claims about spiritual truth without having to contradict itself with appeals to virtues that don't even exist according to their worldview (like you did in your second post: stupid, ugly, defective... lol, nice metaphysics fag).

    Hearing about a foreign religion’s beliefs doesn’t necessarily translate into an influence on your own beliefs. 

     

    Well he provided a concrete example of their Emperor himself being involved with Islam, what would you call influence then you twit?

    The Chinese don’t live in superstitious fear about “playing god,”
     
    Well even leaving aside your total ignorance of how traditional eastern philosophy would view the sanctity of the human person and the relationship of that to their own pantheon, that you are so flippant with the moral question of genetic engineering reveals what a provincial philistine you really are. "If it involves SCIENCE! it must be good!" Totally unable to see outside of your limited parochial prejudices, you are the superstitious peasant you think you're ridiculing. Genetics are so fundamental to what makes us who we are that to substantially alter them is basically to create a totally different person (not that the concept of distinct persons makes any sense in a materialistic worldview). You may as well ask why we don't just populate the world with robots and kill off all the people, robots will always be more efficient than even the brightest flesh and blood people.

    But if you're serious in your view that being the smartest/strongest/most beautiful is what really matters, then I have to ask, why are you still polluting the world with your mediocre presence? I know you must hold out hope that gene-editing will reach you in time, but you must know realistically it won't. You'll never be the world's smartest man, you'll never even be one-hundredth smartest commenter on unz dot com! You'll be the same useless dork, of middling intellect and lesser achievement until your dying day, so why are you even going through the motions?

    Replies: @Dissident

    , @John Johnson
    @advancedatheist

    It probably also sucks for Western Christians to realize that Buddhism has started to make inroads in the West. Buddhism has the advantage over Christianity in that it makes empirically testable claims, and that these claims don’t even depend on arguments over whether the Buddha existed historically.

    I guess you haven't read much about Buddhism. Do tell how how past lives that affect the present are testable.

    Can start with Buddha's headache:
    https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/English-Texts/Why-the-Buddha-Suffered/09-A-Headache.htm

  33. @Talha
    @TG


    If human gene editing becomes a practical reality, the goal will NOT be to unlock the potential of the average person. The goal will be to turn the average person into a domestic animal, docile and hard working.
     
    From Brave New World to Gattacca, this has been the proposed future. That this leads to castes rather than abolishes them due to who has access to the technology and who doesn’t. I guess we may be looking to India to see the direction things go within our lifetime; will they use it to final toss the caste system or will it be even more rigorously established...I don’t know, but it’ll be interesting to find out.

    Peace.

    Replies: @RSDB, @iffen

    From a feasibility standpoint, “unlocking the potential of the average person” doesn’t sound like the easiest thing to do out of the selection of things being proposed.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @RSDB

    “unlocking the potential of the average person” doesn’t sound like the easiest thing to do

    Just because the commies keep failing doesn't mean that it can't be done.

  34. Superhumans cannot be enslaved. Globalism is about SLAVERY.

    The brown and black populations are being bred for slavery, not freedom.

    They are satisfied with less. They are also criminally prone.

    Globalism is about Criminality and Slavery writ large.

    After there is nothing left to steal, it will implode into violence.

    The “slaver lords” will be slaughtered and probably eaten.

    Without White Agriculture, there will be a Mass Extinction Event like no other.

    Except maybe a comet hitting the Earth again…

  35. @Almost Missouri
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Thanks Anatoly, I was just about to comment that you had covered this too, and to mention the 23% figure from 2018 that you cite.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/black-clinics-of-kolkatta

    OTOH, your commenter The Spirit of Enoch Powell points to Richard Lynn's 2001 Eugenics: A reassessment, wherein the "eugenic objective of genetic counseling" was endorsed by fewer than 1/3 of the geneticists and physicians in the larger Western democracies, but was endorsed by 100% of those in China.

    Replies: @RSDB

    I’m not offering this as an explanation, because I don’t know enough, but the word eugenics may not mean the same thing to different people, nor, more importantly, have the same connotations.

    The objective of genetic counseling is, generally, to avoid certain defects; most people in the West would not use the word “eugenics” to refer to that, perhaps because of the very unpleasant associations the word has in our cultural context, while, say, UR columnist Steve Sailer would.

    • Agree: res, Almost Missouri
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @RSDB

    The GSS asks respondents whether or not they would abort a fetus with a "serious genetic defect". A majority respond that they would. If that is not the literal definition of eugenics, I don't know what is.

    Replies: @A123

  36. @Talha
    Also from Pew...off topic though...but quite alarming.

    Peace.

    We Effie’ (iffen’ ?) hate marriage too:
    https://www.twitter.com/lilgidding/status/1337986456241930242

    Replies: @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @RSDB

    Certainly no self-respecting Catholic or Orthodox Christian would say that “being married [is] essential for a man or woman to live a fulfilling life”!

    Neither would Protestants, if they thought our Blessed Lord lived a “fulfilling life”, but, to be fair, I’m not really sure I know what that phrase means.

    That knocks out a pretty large section of the population; still, it is depressing that considerably more people seem to think “being in a committed relationship” is essential than do for “being married”.

    Not to mention “having a lot of money”.

    • Replies: @Talha
    @RSDB


    That knocks out a pretty large section of the population; still, it is depressing that considerably more people seem to think “being in a committed relationship” is essential than do for “being married”.
     
    Quite possible, however I would like to point out one thing.

    Peace.

    I'm not exactly sure Christian ethos is at play here. It may well be, but I would venture to say that; 1) previous generations of these very people were arguably more Christian than the people that were polled and 2) I'm not sure the numbers championing these same prioritizations would be the same regarding what is essential to life.

    But I am not a Christian so others would have to answer what they consider to be the "sunnah" of the Son of Mary (pbuh) which is applicable in their own lives as essential.

    Replies: @RSDB

  37. @Talha
    @TG


    If human gene editing becomes a practical reality, the goal will NOT be to unlock the potential of the average person. The goal will be to turn the average person into a domestic animal, docile and hard working.
     
    From Brave New World to Gattacca, this has been the proposed future. That this leads to castes rather than abolishes them due to who has access to the technology and who doesn’t. I guess we may be looking to India to see the direction things go within our lifetime; will they use it to final toss the caste system or will it be even more rigorously established...I don’t know, but it’ll be interesting to find out.

    Peace.

    Replies: @RSDB, @iffen

    From Brave New World to Gattacca, this has been the proposed future.

    Sometimes, in my crazier moments I wonder if I might be an imperfectly manufactured Gamma; that I’m not supposed to know some of the stuff that I know. Then, I wonder what would be the methods that they would use to detect my existence and locate me. That’s when I do things like commenting under a tag like iffen.

    effing ≠ iffen

    • Replies: @Talha
    @iffen


    Then, I wonder what would be the methods that they would use to detect my existence and locate me.
     
    Without giving too much away, in the end the criminal in Gattacca is finally discovered [partial spoiler alert]...

    Peace.

    ...when they pick up his eyelash and run a genetic match on it. I'm guessing soon they will be able to accurately pick up anyone by a drone simply touching down and whisking away the saliva from the spit or bubblegum they just left on the sidewalk. If the computing power gets good enough, the drone may be able to perform the analysis on the spot without a need to deliver it to a lab.

    Can this vision of the future be stopped? Possibly, but each succeeding generation has an easier time giving up freedoms while also thinking they are freer than the previous generations. I could only shake my head as my daughter was so excited by the fact that her newest cell phone can be conveniently opened with her fingerprint. But I had to also realize that there is nothing stopping my phone from having a record of my fingerprint as well, the only difference being her active participation and my unwitting one.

    If Neil Postman's analysis in Technopoly is right; we cannot stop it, it is inevitable in any society that advances past the stage from a tool-using culture. Technology then seeks the means to define the culture with itself as the ascendant on the totem pole of hierarchies and priorities. Resistance is futile.

    Replies: @iffen, @Justvisiting, @Audacious Epigone

  38. @RSDB
    @Talha

    From a feasibility standpoint, "unlocking the potential of the average person" doesn't sound like the easiest thing to do out of the selection of things being proposed.

    Replies: @iffen

    “unlocking the potential of the average person” doesn’t sound like the easiest thing to do

    Just because the commies keep failing doesn’t mean that it can’t be done.

  39. @Leander Starr
    Who knows where the Chinese are going? It is worth remembering how formidable the USSR looked in 1980

    Replies: @Sean, @John Johnson, @but an humble craftsman, @Jim Bob Lassiter

    The Chinese also have far fewer problems with multiculturalism (both racial and practical) than the USSR had. Also, ask yourself how it is that the USSR never successfully mass produced quality consumer products that were marketable outside its own boundaries?

    • Replies: @advancedatheist
    @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Soviet-era firearms have found a market outside of the Soviet Union, even among American gun enthusiasts. Funny how no libertarian has written an essay titled, "I, the AK-47 Assault Rifle," to show that central planning can produce a complex and useful product.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter, @Johnny Smoggins, @John Johnson

    , @John Johnson
    @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Also, ask yourself how it is that the USSR never successfully mass produced quality consumer products that were marketable outside its own boundaries?

    Consumer products? They couldn't even feed themselves.

    Their exports were mostly raw materials and oil/gas. Also selling arms to third world countries.

    They were importing grain from those evil capitalists.

    What a joke of a system. Denouncing the west while buying food from them.

    Oh but Marx said they would surpass us in everything.

    Amazing that people still sign up for this idiocy and call themselves Marxist.

  40. Frankenstein, you fucking geek.

  41. @iffen
    @Talha

    From Brave New World to Gattacca, this has been the proposed future.

    Sometimes, in my crazier moments I wonder if I might be an imperfectly manufactured Gamma; that I'm not supposed to know some of the stuff that I know. Then, I wonder what would be the methods that they would use to detect my existence and locate me. That's when I do things like commenting under a tag like iffen.

    effing ≠ iffen

    Replies: @Talha

    Then, I wonder what would be the methods that they would use to detect my existence and locate me.

    Without giving too much away, in the end the criminal in Gattacca is finally discovered [partial spoiler alert]…

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    …when they pick up his eyelash and run a genetic match on it. I’m guessing soon they will be able to accurately pick up anyone by a drone simply touching down and whisking away the saliva from the spit or bubblegum they just left on the sidewalk. If the computing power gets good enough, the drone may be able to perform the analysis on the spot without a need to deliver it to a lab.

    Can this vision of the future be stopped? Possibly, but each succeeding generation has an easier time giving up freedoms while also thinking they are freer than the previous generations. I could only shake my head as my daughter was so excited by the fact that her newest cell phone can be conveniently opened with her fingerprint. But I had to also realize that there is nothing stopping my phone from having a record of my fingerprint as well, the only difference being her active participation and my unwitting one.

    If Neil Postman’s analysis in Technopoly is right; we cannot stop it, it is inevitable in any society that advances past the stage from a tool-using culture. Technology then seeks the means to define the culture with itself as the ascendant on the totem pole of hierarchies and priorities. Resistance is futile.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Talha

    Resistance is futile.

    Remember what Mamaw said, "There are bad Terminators and there are good Terminators."

    I don't think AI can get past the singularity without bringing along many of our faults.

    Replies: @Polemos

    , @Justvisiting
    @Talha


    Resistance is futile.
     
    Of course, one of the points of Gattaca is that when the stakes are high enough, people will cheat--a lot.

    Humans are amazingly good at finding "work-arounds" under great stress.

    When large institutions become oppressive, many folks just quietly go about their business in very sneaky ways--hoping that no-one in authority notices (or that the authorities can be bribed to look the other way).

    That is one reason that "history" is such a joke--it only measures the loud and the visible, and ignores the quiet heartbeat of the human spirit that makes day to day life bearable for the masses.

    Replies: @Talha

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @Talha

    But I had to also realize that there is nothing stopping my phone from having a record of my fingerprint as well, the only difference being her active participation and my unwitting one.

    They'd prefer it be consensual because that is easier. But if they have to rape you, they will. Either way, they're going to have their way with you.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @A123

  42. @RSDB
    @Talha

    Certainly no self-respecting Catholic or Orthodox Christian would say that "being married [is] essential for a man or woman to live a fulfilling life"!

    Neither would Protestants, if they thought our Blessed Lord lived a "fulfilling life", but, to be fair, I'm not really sure I know what that phrase means.

    That knocks out a pretty large section of the population; still, it is depressing that considerably more people seem to think "being in a committed relationship" is essential than do for "being married".

    Not to mention "having a lot of money".

    Replies: @Talha

    That knocks out a pretty large section of the population; still, it is depressing that considerably more people seem to think “being in a committed relationship” is essential than do for “being married”.

    Quite possible, however I would like to point out one thing.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    I’m not exactly sure Christian ethos is at play here. It may well be, but I would venture to say that; 1) previous generations of these very people were arguably more Christian than the people that were polled and 2) I’m not sure the numbers championing these same prioritizations would be the same regarding what is essential to life.

    But I am not a Christian so others would have to answer what they consider to be the “sunnah” of the Son of Mary (pbuh) which is applicable in their own lives as essential.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Talha

    Well, it's probably quite true that previous generations were much more Christian than this one, but I'm not sure what conclusions can be drawn from that about this particular poll, given that, as far as I can tell, previous generations have not been summoned from their graves to answer this question; one of the few pertinent things we do know about how these previous generations might have answered is that, at least answering for the Catholics among them, they were MUCH more likely to enter the religious life-- that is, to become priests, monks, or nuns. So I'm not sure I would quite agree with your implied projection as to their answers.


    As to whether Protestants would regard our Lord as in any way a pattern for their own lives, and in what way that would be, I really can't say, but I would point out that a "yes" to the question asked, whether being married was "essential" to a "fulfilling life", would imply, logically speaking, that no unmarried life could be "fulfilling", and therefore, that the life of Jesus Christ, God and incarnate Son of God (I think most Protestants believe this[?]), was not "fulfilling".

    While I doubt most people surveyed thought through that, given that surveys are usually a pain people try to get through with a minimum of thought-- would Cleobis and Biton have had fulfilling lives? Solon certainly thought so, and he was a pretty "based" guy in UR terminology.

    (Always with the caveat that I am not entirely sure of the phrase "a fulfilling life", though):

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/miscellaneous-elf-self_fulfilling_prophecy-self_fulfilling_prophecy-fill-filling-nki0202_low.jpg

    Why the "more" tag? OT, I guess? This would have fit in pretty well on that "happiness" thread that got shut down, though.

    Replies: @Talha

  43. Anon[164] • Disclaimer says:

    Twinkie says:

    Contrary to the said tropes, East Asians seem to only support genetic research for better medical care, not for making super babies, let alone altering human nature. The only odd man out seems to be India (though Malaysia is surprisingly close).

    Pakistanis are Muslim Indians, essentially, and account for most of the current birth defects in England, due to many centuries or millenia of cousin marriage.

    https://conservativedailypost.com/70-of-pakistan-half-of-arab-world-plagued-by-shocking-inbreeding-affliction/

    This is also a problem endemic is some other large regions of South Asia –

    http://countrystudies.us/india/86.htm

    In South India, in sharp contrast, marriages are preferred between cousins (especially cross-cousins, that is, the children of a brother and sister) and even between uncles and nieces (especially a man and his elder sister’s daughter). The principle involved is that of return–the family that gives a daughter expects one in return,

    Large scale, continuing tribal Consanguinity hits two sonic barriers –
    the first is large scale Neurological disorders, and if that warning is ignored,
    then the 2nd arises which is large scale visible birth defects.

    A tribal people already at or beyond barrier 1 is going to be accepting of CRISPR because its the only option.

    Providentially, now that the Republiscum have provided these nations Infinity work visas to relocate to America and take all the employment and wages that melt the icy hearts of the most unscupulous labor speculators, they will have plenty of cash to pay for the CRISPR treatments, courtesy of our betrayal elites.

  44. Because at least a plurality in every country except for the very inegalitarian India deems such research to be bad, 19 of the 20 values are negative:

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh

    • Replies: @Talha
    @MEH 0910

    Life imitates art...

    Peace.

  45. @MEH 0910

    Because at least a plurality in every country except for the very inegalitarian India deems such research to be bad, 19 of the 20 values are negative:
     
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/19/Khan1.jpg

    Replies: @Talha

    Life imitates art…

    Peace.

  46. Anon[240] • Disclaimer says:

    “…the USSR never successfully mass produced quality consumer products…”

    This calls to mind an old joke from back in the day when the fear was, nukes would soon be miniaturized. At a national-security meeting, one expert says, “This is scary — the day is coming when some Russian will be entering the U.S. with an attache-case nuke. Then another expert replies, “Don’t worry – the Russians will never be able to manufacture an attache case.

    • LOL: Dissident
  47. @Talha
    @RSDB


    That knocks out a pretty large section of the population; still, it is depressing that considerably more people seem to think “being in a committed relationship” is essential than do for “being married”.
     
    Quite possible, however I would like to point out one thing.

    Peace.

    I'm not exactly sure Christian ethos is at play here. It may well be, but I would venture to say that; 1) previous generations of these very people were arguably more Christian than the people that were polled and 2) I'm not sure the numbers championing these same prioritizations would be the same regarding what is essential to life.

    But I am not a Christian so others would have to answer what they consider to be the "sunnah" of the Son of Mary (pbuh) which is applicable in their own lives as essential.

    Replies: @RSDB

    Well, it’s probably quite true that previous generations were much more Christian than this one, but I’m not sure what conclusions can be drawn from that about this particular poll, given that, as far as I can tell, previous generations have not been summoned from their graves to answer this question; one of the few pertinent things we do know about how these previous generations might have answered is that, at least answering for the Catholics among them, they were MUCH more likely to enter the religious life– that is, to become priests, monks, or nuns. So I’m not sure I would quite agree with your implied projection as to their answers.

    [MORE]

    As to whether Protestants would regard our Lord as in any way a pattern for their own lives, and in what way that would be, I really can’t say, but I would point out that a “yes” to the question asked, whether being married was “essential” to a “fulfilling life”, would imply, logically speaking, that no unmarried life could be “fulfilling”, and therefore, that the life of Jesus Christ, God and incarnate Son of God (I think most Protestants believe this[?]), was not “fulfilling”.

    While I doubt most people surveyed thought through that, given that surveys are usually a pain people try to get through with a minimum of thought– would Cleobis and Biton have had fulfilling lives? Solon certainly thought so, and he was a pretty “based” guy in UR terminology.

    (Always with the caveat that I am not entirely sure of the phrase “a fulfilling life”, though):

    Why the “more” tag? OT, I guess? This would have fit in pretty well on that “happiness” thread that got shut down, though.

    • Replies: @Talha
    @RSDB


    whether being married was “essential” to a “fulfilling life”, would imply, logically speaking, that no unmarried life could be “fulfilling”
     
    This indeed is an important part of the question at play.

    Peace.

    How do the people answering regard the word “essential”; is it in the sense of “very important” or “absolutely necessary”.

    This chart does help in distinguishing between the “essential” and “important” showing marriage is still considered important by many, so that’s a good sign:
    https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/11/06/public-views-of-marriage-and-cohabitation/psdt_11-06-19_cohabitation-02-02/

    In our tradition, men like Imam Nawawi (ra), who never married, were the exception rather than the norm. He was simply too busy writing books and formulating fatwas (and getting in trouble with the Mamluk authorities for standing up for the poor) that he felt he would not be able to fulfill the rights his wife would have over him. Of course, he was kind of an outlier; voluntarily refusing to drink cool water and forbidding himself fruits. I can’t think of any Muslim I know that considers him to have lived a worthless life.

    Anyway, here is the more detailed report:
    https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/11/06/marriage-and-cohabitation-in-the-u-s/


    Jesus Christ, God and incarnate Son of God (I think most Protestants believe this[?]
     
    I guess this depends on who you ask...the numbers seem to be shifting:
    “A Majority Of Americans Think Jesus Is A Great Teacher Yet Reject His Claims To Be God”
    https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/a-majority-of-americans-think-jesus-is-a-great-teacher-yet-reject-his-claims-to-be-god-301119281.html
  48. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @Talha

    The neo-liberal conditioning is going well, the West is more than halfway there to creating the perfect worker unit.

    Replies: @Talha

    Each man a cog and every cog in its place.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    It could be argued that the West has to catch up with the Far East in this regard. Japan being an interesting case study.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Talha

    Despite my reservations as to reading too much into this particular poll, I can't challenge the general thrust here.

    , @Polemos
    @Talha

    Group Action or synchronized walking:

    https://youtu.be/vREfRjJlRZo?t=166

    Replies: @Talha, @Twinkie

  49. @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @Leander Starr

    The Chinese also have far fewer problems with multiculturalism (both racial and practical) than the USSR had. Also, ask yourself how it is that the USSR never successfully mass produced quality consumer products that were marketable outside its own boundaries?

    Replies: @advancedatheist, @John Johnson

    Soviet-era firearms have found a market outside of the Soviet Union, even among American gun enthusiasts. Funny how no libertarian has written an essay titled, “I, the AK-47 Assault Rifle,” to show that central planning can produce a complex and useful product.

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @advancedatheist

    Other than ordinance (and shit they offloaded on to starving satellite states like Cuba).

    E.G.-- Have you ever seen a Russian/USSR TV for retail sale to general public in a place that doesn't match a Cuba /East European client state scenario? How about a pair of shoes? A set of mechanics' tools?
    A computer? A bicycle? A personal vibrator?

    For a while, back in the day, they produced some model airplane glow plug and compression ignition engines that gained some international acclaim, but as usual, supply, parts availability and QC was sporadic and erratic. Around 1979 the José Figueres family in Costa Rica attempted to import and market Skoda cars and some tractors. That fell flat on its face real quick.

    Vodka really seems to be about it and even that requires some browsing effort to find in the sea of Scandinavian and US competitors at the liquor store.

    , @Johnny Smoggins
    @advancedatheist

    Back when I had better quality enemies, I used to send them Soviet made microwave ovens as gifts. It just seemed more up to date than the old scorpion- in- the- mail- slot trick.

    Replies: @A123

    , @John Johnson
    @advancedatheist

    Soviet-era firearms have found a market outside of the Soviet Union, even among American gun enthusiasts. Funny how no libertarian has written an essay titled, “I, the AK-47 Assault Rifle,” to show that central planning can produce a complex and useful product.

    Well gun enthusiasts know that the AK-47 is mostly a rip of the German STG-44.

    The Soviets were just good at mass producing them.

    Soviet firearms don't have a market in the US. That hasn't been true since the 90s.

    There are all kinds of import limitations on AKs as part of a left/right compromise. Most AKs sold today are built in the US.

    For someone calling themselves "advancedatheist" you really have a lot to learn.

    Probably need a name change.

    How about "sophomoricarrogantheist"

    Replies: @Twinkie

  50. @Talha
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Each man a cog and every cog in its place.

    Peace.

    It could be argued that the West has to catch up with the Far East in this regard. Japan being an interesting case study.

    Replies: @RSDB, @Polemos

    Despite my reservations as to reading too much into this particular poll, I can’t challenge the general thrust here.

  51. @RSDB
    @Talha

    Well, it's probably quite true that previous generations were much more Christian than this one, but I'm not sure what conclusions can be drawn from that about this particular poll, given that, as far as I can tell, previous generations have not been summoned from their graves to answer this question; one of the few pertinent things we do know about how these previous generations might have answered is that, at least answering for the Catholics among them, they were MUCH more likely to enter the religious life-- that is, to become priests, monks, or nuns. So I'm not sure I would quite agree with your implied projection as to their answers.


    As to whether Protestants would regard our Lord as in any way a pattern for their own lives, and in what way that would be, I really can't say, but I would point out that a "yes" to the question asked, whether being married was "essential" to a "fulfilling life", would imply, logically speaking, that no unmarried life could be "fulfilling", and therefore, that the life of Jesus Christ, God and incarnate Son of God (I think most Protestants believe this[?]), was not "fulfilling".

    While I doubt most people surveyed thought through that, given that surveys are usually a pain people try to get through with a minimum of thought-- would Cleobis and Biton have had fulfilling lives? Solon certainly thought so, and he was a pretty "based" guy in UR terminology.

    (Always with the caveat that I am not entirely sure of the phrase "a fulfilling life", though):

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/miscellaneous-elf-self_fulfilling_prophecy-self_fulfilling_prophecy-fill-filling-nki0202_low.jpg

    Why the "more" tag? OT, I guess? This would have fit in pretty well on that "happiness" thread that got shut down, though.

    Replies: @Talha

    whether being married was “essential” to a “fulfilling life”, would imply, logically speaking, that no unmarried life could be “fulfilling”

    This indeed is an important part of the question at play.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    How do the people answering regard the word “essential”; is it in the sense of “very important” or “absolutely necessary”.

    This chart does help in distinguishing between the “essential” and “important” showing marriage is still considered important by many, so that’s a good sign:
    https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/11/06/public-views-of-marriage-and-cohabitation/psdt_11-06-19_cohabitation-02-02/

    In our tradition, men like Imam Nawawi (ra), who never married, were the exception rather than the norm. He was simply too busy writing books and formulating fatwas (and getting in trouble with the Mamluk authorities for standing up for the poor) that he felt he would not be able to fulfill the rights his wife would have over him. Of course, he was kind of an outlier; voluntarily refusing to drink cool water and forbidding himself fruits. I can’t think of any Muslim I know that considers him to have lived a worthless life.

    Anyway, here is the more detailed report:
    https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/11/06/marriage-and-cohabitation-in-the-u-s/

    Jesus Christ, God and incarnate Son of God (I think most Protestants believe this[?]

    I guess this depends on who you ask…the numbers seem to be shifting:
    “A Majority Of Americans Think Jesus Is A Great Teacher Yet Reject His Claims To Be God”
    https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/a-majority-of-americans-think-jesus-is-a-great-teacher-yet-reject-his-claims-to-be-god-301119281.html

  52. @Almost Missouri
    @BCB232

    As Talha may be gently hinting, India knows—even if it doesn't advertise—that it has the ongoing legacy of thousands of years Jātic inbreeding, so something that seems to hold the possibility of a rapid and painless way out of these dysgenic blind alleys will naturally appeal to India.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

    so something that seems to hold the possibility of a rapid and painless way out of these dysgenic blind alleys will naturally appeal to India.

    Beautifully articulated and yes vast swathes of the Indian demography are dysgenic sewages. You can’t blame them for wanting to escape the iron laws of hereditary. The good news is that they are aware of it there’s no fake pride involved.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    Indians seem to have a problem with Covid-19 distancing ...

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1338364345781268480

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

  53. It’s yet another reason why the 21st will be the Chinese century.

    There is still the African population explosion, if those huge numbers come to pass as projected then nobody can keep out the black hordes. China already does a lot of business with Africa, so it cannot completely close itself off to Africans moving into China (otherwise it will be an obvious “they are racist” target), add the drop in fertility and China will be overwhelmed like all other places.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    @neutral

    The African population explosion is a Covid-19-like globalist myth. Like climate change, it's a fabrication designed to advance political goals.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter, @V. K. Ovelund, @res, @dfordoom

    , @Dissident
    @neutral


    China already does a lot of business with Africa, so it cannot completely close itself off to Africans moving into China (otherwise it will be an obvious “they are racist” target),
     
    How much do they care whether anyone calls them "racist"? Is this not a major difference between China and the West?

    Has any of the scolding or condemnation from the West or anyone else had any actual influence upon China's behavior toward their Uyghur population, for example? Or toward Tibet?

    I wonder if our gracious host AE or anyone else who takes the popular view that "the 21st will be the Chinese century" is familiar with the arguments made by Michael Beckley in his book Unrivaled: Why America Will Remain the World’s Sole Superpower. (Cornell University Press, 2018) Link is to synopsis at American Enterprise Institute web site, where one also finds by the same author, The Chinese economic miracle: How much is real… how much is a mirage?, a chapter from white paper of his published one year ago (December, 2019).
    https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1l6u.d7fb_uJkSnfoq6z_epXaW/Boys-Coat-2019-New-Winter-Baby-Boy-Clothes-Christmas-Dragon-Embroidered-Gentleman-Chinese-Style-Retro-Thicken.jpg
  54. @Talha
    @iffen


    Then, I wonder what would be the methods that they would use to detect my existence and locate me.
     
    Without giving too much away, in the end the criminal in Gattacca is finally discovered [partial spoiler alert]...

    Peace.

    ...when they pick up his eyelash and run a genetic match on it. I'm guessing soon they will be able to accurately pick up anyone by a drone simply touching down and whisking away the saliva from the spit or bubblegum they just left on the sidewalk. If the computing power gets good enough, the drone may be able to perform the analysis on the spot without a need to deliver it to a lab.

    Can this vision of the future be stopped? Possibly, but each succeeding generation has an easier time giving up freedoms while also thinking they are freer than the previous generations. I could only shake my head as my daughter was so excited by the fact that her newest cell phone can be conveniently opened with her fingerprint. But I had to also realize that there is nothing stopping my phone from having a record of my fingerprint as well, the only difference being her active participation and my unwitting one.

    If Neil Postman's analysis in Technopoly is right; we cannot stop it, it is inevitable in any society that advances past the stage from a tool-using culture. Technology then seeks the means to define the culture with itself as the ascendant on the totem pole of hierarchies and priorities. Resistance is futile.

    Replies: @iffen, @Justvisiting, @Audacious Epigone

    Resistance is futile.

    [MORE]

    Remember what Mamaw said, “There are bad Terminators and there are good Terminators.”

    I don’t think AI can get past the singularity without bringing along many of our faults.

    • Replies: @Polemos
    @iffen


    I don’t think AI can get past the singularity without bringing along many of our faults.
     
    Do you think they will get a little help from above (above us, that is)?

    Do you think humans themselves also had a little help from above, or was it always a coming-of-age into self-awareness from below?

    Replies: @iffen

  55. Current type of homo sapiens has no future.

    Gene editing (actually, on a more advanced level, gene engineering), should be applied to change everything that, more or less, defines human life:

    health
    looks & everything about it
    cognitive ability & talents

    And do away with faggotry & other deviations.

    And this is just a first step to artificial wombs, then to not such a vulnerable, Carbon based life …

  56. @neutral

    It’s yet another reason why the 21st will be the Chinese century.
     
    There is still the African population explosion, if those huge numbers come to pass as projected then nobody can keep out the black hordes. China already does a lot of business with Africa, so it cannot completely close itself off to Africans moving into China (otherwise it will be an obvious "they are racist" target), add the drop in fertility and China will be overwhelmed like all other places.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein, @Dissident

    The African population explosion is a Covid-19-like globalist myth. Like climate change, it’s a fabrication designed to advance political goals.

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @Intelligent Dasein

    I wish.

    , @V. K. Ovelund
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Your comment leaves me in the dark.


    The African population explosion is a Covid-19-like globalist myth.
     
    It is?

    Like climate change, it’s a fabrication designed to advance political goals.
     
    You usually have interesting takes, so a comment of yours is not to be dismissed, but I don't get it. The fabrication has apparently taken me in. Kindly elaborate.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    , @res
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Evidence?

    Replies: @anon

    , @dfordoom
    @Intelligent Dasein


    The African population explosion is a Covid-19-like globalist myth. Like climate change, it’s a fabrication designed to advance political goals.
     
    That's awesome. A brand new conspiracy theory. I thought every possible conspiracy theory had already been thought up but it appears I was wrong. This is excellent news since what the political right badly needs at the moment is more conspiracy theories.
  57. @advancedatheist
    @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Soviet-era firearms have found a market outside of the Soviet Union, even among American gun enthusiasts. Funny how no libertarian has written an essay titled, "I, the AK-47 Assault Rifle," to show that central planning can produce a complex and useful product.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter, @Johnny Smoggins, @John Johnson

    Other than ordinance (and shit they offloaded on to starving satellite states like Cuba).

    E.G.– Have you ever seen a Russian/USSR TV for retail sale to general public in a place that doesn’t match a Cuba /East European client state scenario? How about a pair of shoes? A set of mechanics’ tools?
    A computer? A bicycle? A personal vibrator?

    For a while, back in the day, they produced some model airplane glow plug and compression ignition engines that gained some international acclaim, but as usual, supply, parts availability and QC was sporadic and erratic. Around 1979 the José Figueres family in Costa Rica attempted to import and market Skoda cars and some tractors. That fell flat on its face real quick.

    Vodka really seems to be about it and even that requires some browsing effort to find in the sea of Scandinavian and US competitors at the liquor store.

  58. @Intelligent Dasein
    @neutral

    The African population explosion is a Covid-19-like globalist myth. Like climate change, it's a fabrication designed to advance political goals.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter, @V. K. Ovelund, @res, @dfordoom

    I wish.

  59. @Intelligent Dasein
    @neutral

    The African population explosion is a Covid-19-like globalist myth. Like climate change, it's a fabrication designed to advance political goals.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter, @V. K. Ovelund, @res, @dfordoom

    Your comment leaves me in the dark.

    The African population explosion is a Covid-19-like globalist myth.

    It is?

    Like climate change, it’s a fabrication designed to advance political goals.

    You usually have interesting takes, so a comment of yours is not to be dismissed, but I don’t get it. The fabrication has apparently taken me in. Kindly elaborate.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I won't be able to get a reply together before the thread closes, but as the matter is an important one, I will contact you privately.

    Replies: @anon, @A123, @Almost Missouri

  60. It would be interesting to have a two axis view for the issue. Scientific research on human gene editing (other than terminal genetic disorders):

    -1- Moral / Immoral
    -2- Low Risk / High Risk

    I suspect that the “Moral” / “High Risk” quadrant is dominating the numbers. It is not a resistance to science. Instead, there is unwillingness to bear the burden of damaged children from gene enhancement gone wrong.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @anon
    @A123

    It would be interesting to have a two axis view for the issue. Scientific research on human gene editing (other than terminal genetic disorders):

    How many people in the poll have the slightest clue what is involved in CRISPR, or in "gene editing" at all? Heck, how many of them really know what "genes" are, beyond the mid-high Mendelian sense? How many of them have any sense at all of the failure modes of something like CRISPR?

    Refine that for this thread: how many PhD's outside of the appropriate niche actually have a clue what the current state of the art is regarding alleles that influence intelligence? How many self-taught philosophers are even numerate?

    Most people are ignorant about most things, just as a matter of probabilities. Therefore we can't answer some questions at all, really.

    It is not a resistance to science. Instead, there is unwillingness to bear the burden of damaged children from gene enhancement gone wrong.

    There's more than "burden" involved, there is a profound sense of loss as well. Small families don't cope as well with such a loss - if you have two children and one is permanently damaged, it's a different situation than in a case of one out of five. As you noted, outside of really obvious things like sickle-cell anemia, the risk/reward is not good at all. For parents of a single child, it would be devastating.

    Tangentially this is why I view the chances of China starting aggressive war as doubtful. Virtually the entire PLA consists of only-children. Getting too many of them killed would be a very bad situation for the current regime, it might approach "lost the Mandate of Heaven" badness.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @A123

  61. @Talha
    @iffen


    Then, I wonder what would be the methods that they would use to detect my existence and locate me.
     
    Without giving too much away, in the end the criminal in Gattacca is finally discovered [partial spoiler alert]...

    Peace.

    ...when they pick up his eyelash and run a genetic match on it. I'm guessing soon they will be able to accurately pick up anyone by a drone simply touching down and whisking away the saliva from the spit or bubblegum they just left on the sidewalk. If the computing power gets good enough, the drone may be able to perform the analysis on the spot without a need to deliver it to a lab.

    Can this vision of the future be stopped? Possibly, but each succeeding generation has an easier time giving up freedoms while also thinking they are freer than the previous generations. I could only shake my head as my daughter was so excited by the fact that her newest cell phone can be conveniently opened with her fingerprint. But I had to also realize that there is nothing stopping my phone from having a record of my fingerprint as well, the only difference being her active participation and my unwitting one.

    If Neil Postman's analysis in Technopoly is right; we cannot stop it, it is inevitable in any society that advances past the stage from a tool-using culture. Technology then seeks the means to define the culture with itself as the ascendant on the totem pole of hierarchies and priorities. Resistance is futile.

    Replies: @iffen, @Justvisiting, @Audacious Epigone

    Resistance is futile.

    Of course, one of the points of Gattaca is that when the stakes are high enough, people will cheat–a lot.

    Humans are amazingly good at finding “work-arounds” under great stress.

    When large institutions become oppressive, many folks just quietly go about their business in very sneaky ways–hoping that no-one in authority notices (or that the authorities can be bribed to look the other way).

    That is one reason that “history” is such a joke–it only measures the loud and the visible, and ignores the quiet heartbeat of the human spirit that makes day to day life bearable for the masses.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @Talha
    @Justvisiting


    Humans are amazingly good at finding “work-arounds” under great stress.
     
    This is very true. Notice how I started that paragraph...

    Peace.


    IF Neil Postman’s analysis in Technopoly is right...
     
    It is always difficult to predict the future due to so many variables. In Brave New World you also have some people figuring some way around a rule here and there. But - again - IF Postman is correct, these will be small voices that have found ways to cope that are drowned out by the din of the overwhelming machinery. It is that juggernaut which is unstoppable.

    In Gattaca, the lead character gets to carry out his very specific dream. For that to happen, another human being gives up his body for him, his soul and spirit crushed by the weight of the dystopian society.

    What would bring it down or cause a change? Maybe some kind of a black swan event of sorts - history is full of these. Enough that they cannot be discounted.

    Or maybe Postman got it wrong, though he hasn't been wrong thus far.


    the quiet heartbeat of the human spirit that makes day to day life bearable for the masses.
     
    Human beings can get through tremendously difficult circumstances - I agree. I guess we will also find out if this is increasingly possible without religion. Technopoly seeks to supplant that as part of its cultural take over.
  62. anon[199] • Disclaimer says:
    @A123
    It would be interesting to have a two axis view for the issue. Scientific research on human gene editing (other than terminal genetic disorders):

    -1- Moral / Immoral
    -2- Low Risk / High Risk

    I suspect that the "Moral" / "High Risk" quadrant is dominating the numbers. It is not a resistance to science. Instead, there is unwillingness to bear the burden of damaged children from gene enhancement gone wrong.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @anon

    It would be interesting to have a two axis view for the issue. Scientific research on human gene editing (other than terminal genetic disorders):

    How many people in the poll have the slightest clue what is involved in CRISPR, or in “gene editing” at all? Heck, how many of them really know what “genes” are, beyond the mid-high Mendelian sense? How many of them have any sense at all of the failure modes of something like CRISPR?

    Refine that for this thread: how many PhD’s outside of the appropriate niche actually have a clue what the current state of the art is regarding alleles that influence intelligence? How many self-taught philosophers are even numerate?

    Most people are ignorant about most things, just as a matter of probabilities. Therefore we can’t answer some questions at all, really.

    It is not a resistance to science. Instead, there is unwillingness to bear the burden of damaged children from gene enhancement gone wrong.

    There’s more than “burden” involved, there is a profound sense of loss as well. Small families don’t cope as well with such a loss – if you have two children and one is permanently damaged, it’s a different situation than in a case of one out of five. As you noted, outside of really obvious things like sickle-cell anemia, the risk/reward is not good at all. For parents of a single child, it would be devastating.

    Tangentially this is why I view the chances of China starting aggressive war as doubtful. Virtually the entire PLA consists of only-children. Getting too many of them killed would be a very bad situation for the current regime, it might approach “lost the Mandate of Heaven” badness.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @anon


    How many people in the poll have the slightest clue what is involved in CRISPR, or in “gene editing” at all? Heck, how many of them really know what “genes” are, beyond the mid-high Mendelian sense? How many of them have any sense at all of the failure modes of something like CRISPR?
     
    It's another example of the complete worthlessness of opinion polls on any subject more complex than "do you prefer Korean food or Thai food".

    On any even moderately complex issue the proportion of the population capable of holding an informed opinion is probably around 5%. If it's a really complex issue that probably drops to 2% or less. Possibly much less.

    Opinion pollsters ask people questions that ordinary people cannot possibly answer. In fact ordinary people cannot possibly even understand the questions.

    It's not a matter of stupidity. No-one can give an intelligent answer on a subject of which they have no specialised knowledge. You might as well ask me who's going to win the World Lacrosse Championship this year. Unless I'm an ardent follower of professional lacrosse I'm not going to have the vaguest idea. I'm not even sure what lacrosse is.
    , @A123
    @anon


    How many people in the poll have the slightest clue what is involved in CRISPR, or in “gene editing” at all?

    Most people are ignorant about most things, just as a matter of probabilities. Therefore we can’t answer some questions at all, really.
     
    You may get an *better* answer from those without technical details.

    The question will be perceived as, "Would you genetically enhance your child that you just conceived?"

    After being deceived by Dr. Fauci.... Why would anyone trust an M.D. claiming that baby-editing is safe & effective?

    The only parents who would roll those rice are those who have little to lose. For example, their child has a life threatening genetic defect.

    PEACE 😇
  63. @advancedatheist
    @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Soviet-era firearms have found a market outside of the Soviet Union, even among American gun enthusiasts. Funny how no libertarian has written an essay titled, "I, the AK-47 Assault Rifle," to show that central planning can produce a complex and useful product.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter, @Johnny Smoggins, @John Johnson

    Back when I had better quality enemies, I used to send them Soviet made microwave ovens as gifts. It just seemed more up to date than the old scorpion- in- the- mail- slot trick.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Johnny Smoggins

    Microwaves are dangerous.... (1)


    Florida Man Dies Attempting to Microwave a Microwave

    26-year old Florida man Bill Davis died after attempting to microwave a microwave. Allegedly, the man was on video call with his friends and the bored lot dared him to microwave a smaller microwave.
     
    https://i1.wp.com/www.hoaxorfact.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Florida-Man-Dies-Attempting-to-Microwave-a-Microwave.jpg
     

     
    OK... It was a joke/satire that escaped into the news.

    http://www.hoaxorfact.com/pranks/florida-man-dies-attempting-to-microwave-a-microwave.html

    PEACE 😇
  64. @Johnny Smoggins
    @advancedatheist

    Back when I had better quality enemies, I used to send them Soviet made microwave ovens as gifts. It just seemed more up to date than the old scorpion- in- the- mail- slot trick.

    Replies: @A123

    Microwaves are dangerous…. (1)

    Florida Man Dies Attempting to Microwave a Microwave

    26-year old Florida man Bill Davis died after attempting to microwave a microwave. Allegedly, the man was on video call with his friends and the bored lot dared him to microwave a smaller microwave.


     

    [MORE]

     
    OK… It was a joke/satire that escaped into the news.

    http://www.hoaxorfact.com/pranks/florida-man-dies-attempting-to-microwave-a-microwave.html

    PEACE 😇

  65. @Justvisiting
    @Talha


    Resistance is futile.
     
    Of course, one of the points of Gattaca is that when the stakes are high enough, people will cheat--a lot.

    Humans are amazingly good at finding "work-arounds" under great stress.

    When large institutions become oppressive, many folks just quietly go about their business in very sneaky ways--hoping that no-one in authority notices (or that the authorities can be bribed to look the other way).

    That is one reason that "history" is such a joke--it only measures the loud and the visible, and ignores the quiet heartbeat of the human spirit that makes day to day life bearable for the masses.

    Replies: @Talha

    Humans are amazingly good at finding “work-arounds” under great stress.

    This is very true. Notice how I started that paragraph…

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    IF Neil Postman’s analysis in Technopoly is right…

    It is always difficult to predict the future due to so many variables. In Brave New World you also have some people figuring some way around a rule here and there. But – again – IF Postman is correct, these will be small voices that have found ways to cope that are drowned out by the din of the overwhelming machinery. It is that juggernaut which is unstoppable.

    In Gattaca, the lead character gets to carry out his very specific dream. For that to happen, another human being gives up his body for him, his soul and spirit crushed by the weight of the dystopian society.

    What would bring it down or cause a change? Maybe some kind of a black swan event of sorts – history is full of these. Enough that they cannot be discounted.

    Or maybe Postman got it wrong, though he hasn’t been wrong thus far.

    the quiet heartbeat of the human spirit that makes day to day life bearable for the masses.

    Human beings can get through tremendously difficult circumstances – I agree. I guess we will also find out if this is increasingly possible without religion. Technopoly seeks to supplant that as part of its cultural take over.

  66. @Talha
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Each man a cog and every cog in its place.

    Peace.

    It could be argued that the West has to catch up with the Far East in this regard. Japan being an interesting case study.

    Replies: @RSDB, @Polemos

    Group Action or synchronized walking:

    • Replies: @Talha
    @Polemos

    Pretty amazing.

    Peace.

    , @Twinkie
    @Polemos

    Not as cool as this:

    https://youtu.be/GEIU_7v40Dw

    Or my kids' favorite:

    https://youtu.be/Fl54gG0B8I0?t=98

    A couple of my girls are dancers (ballet, tap, and modern), and the whole time, they kept muttering "Wow, look at how many formation changes they do and how precise they are. Everyone is right where he is supposed to be after each formation change."

  67. @iffen
    @Talha

    Resistance is futile.

    Remember what Mamaw said, "There are bad Terminators and there are good Terminators."

    I don't think AI can get past the singularity without bringing along many of our faults.

    Replies: @Polemos

    I don’t think AI can get past the singularity without bringing along many of our faults.

    Do you think they will get a little help from above (above us, that is)?

    Do you think humans themselves also had a little help from above, or was it always a coming-of-age into self-awareness from below?

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Polemos

    Do you think humans themselves also had a little help from above

    I assume that you are not talking about stardust sprinkling down and coagulating into planets and such.

    Although it seems a bit lonely sometimes, I have no doubt that we are alone. Unless of course you are talking about other civilizations somewhere in the universe. I don't think they would be inclined to help us even if they are there and could get to us.

    Replies: @Polemos, @Dissident

  68. @Intelligent Dasein
    @neutral

    The African population explosion is a Covid-19-like globalist myth. Like climate change, it's a fabrication designed to advance political goals.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter, @V. K. Ovelund, @res, @dfordoom

    Evidence?

    • Replies: @anon
    @res

    You should know by now that mere evidence on the physical plane of reality doesn't fit some Aristotelian Form or other inside his head, and is thus totally beneath his notice.

  69. @advancedatheist
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Hearing about a foreign religion's beliefs doesn't necessarily translate into an influence on your own beliefs. The Jesuit missionaries who went to China realized that they faced an extraordinarily hard challenge in Christianizing such a radically different culture, and their project clearly failed.

    Besides, I've heard about Catholicism myself for as long as I can remember, yet I still view it an alien cult, even if my ancestors belonged to it a few generations back before the Reformation.

    It probably also sucks for Western Christians to realize that Buddhism has started to make inroads in the West. Buddhism has the advantage over Christianity in that it makes empirically testable claims, and that these claims don't even depend on arguments over whether the Buddha existed historically.

    Replies: @Athletic and Whitesplosive, @John Johnson

    It probably also sucks for Western Christians to realize that Buddhism has started to make inroads in the West. Buddhism has the advantage over Christianity in that it makes empirically testable claims, and that these claims don’t even depend on arguments over whether the Buddha existed historically

    It must really burn you up that atheists are such a genetic and social dead end that they are consistently dying off in favor of more fulfilling religions. Christianity has the advantage over atheism in that it actually makes materially self-consistent claims about spiritual truth without having to contradict itself with appeals to virtues that don’t even exist according to their worldview (like you did in your second post: stupid, ugly, defective… lol, nice metaphysics fag).

    Hearing about a foreign religion’s beliefs doesn’t necessarily translate into an influence on your own beliefs. 

    Well he provided a concrete example of their Emperor himself being involved with Islam, what would you call influence then you twit?

    The Chinese don’t live in superstitious fear about “playing god,”

    Well even leaving aside your total ignorance of how traditional eastern philosophy would view the sanctity of the human person and the relationship of that to their own pantheon, that you are so flippant with the moral question of genetic engineering reveals what a provincial philistine you really are. “If it involves SCIENCE! it must be good!” Totally unable to see outside of your limited parochial prejudices, you are the superstitious peasant you think you’re ridiculing. Genetics are so fundamental to what makes us who we are that to substantially alter them is basically to create a totally different person (not that the concept of distinct persons makes any sense in a materialistic worldview). You may as well ask why we don’t just populate the world with robots and kill off all the people, robots will always be more efficient than even the brightest flesh and blood people.

    But if you’re serious in your view that being the smartest/strongest/most beautiful is what really matters, then I have to ask, why are you still polluting the world with your mediocre presence? I know you must hold out hope that gene-editing will reach you in time, but you must know realistically it won’t. You’ll never be the world’s smartest man, you’ll never even be one-hundredth smartest commenter on unz dot com! You’ll be the same useless dork, of middling intellect and lesser achievement until your dying day, so why are you even going through the motions?

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @Athletic and Whitesplosive


    You may as well ask why we don’t just populate the world with robots and kill off all the people, robots will always be more efficient than even the brightest flesh and blood people.
     
    Indeed, once one no longer considers the sanctity of human life absolute, there is no end to the rationalizations and justifications that can be made and where they may lead. And without belief in a transcendent, divine Master, morality and ethics can never be more than relative, situational, and ultimately instrumental. The very concept of inherent worth or good cannot ultimately exist, absent a transcendent arbiter.

    But if you’re serious in your view that being the smartest/strongest/most beautiful is what really matters,
     
    Absent a belief that life is inherently sacred, a life is only of value in so far as it serves as a means toward some perceivable goal.

    You raise compelling questions and present valid criticisms and challenges. I must challenge, though, your copious use of insults. Were many of them not gratuitous? Do you think that resorting to such name-calling enhances or bolsters your credibility or the quality or persuasiveness of your arguments?

    Lest you feel I have singled you out for special censure, let me assure you that I would offer the same challenge (and on occasion have) to any number of other commenters whom I have seen succumb to this same vice/ resort to this same crutch. Note, as well, that I make no moral judgments here.) In order to remain both credible and effective, as well as mature and honorable, debate should, at least as a rule, stick to argumentation from facts and logic.

  70. @neutral

    It’s yet another reason why the 21st will be the Chinese century.
     
    There is still the African population explosion, if those huge numbers come to pass as projected then nobody can keep out the black hordes. China already does a lot of business with Africa, so it cannot completely close itself off to Africans moving into China (otherwise it will be an obvious "they are racist" target), add the drop in fertility and China will be overwhelmed like all other places.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein, @Dissident

    China already does a lot of business with Africa, so it cannot completely close itself off to Africans moving into China (otherwise it will be an obvious “they are racist” target),

    How much do they care whether anyone calls them “racist”? Is this not a major difference between China and the West?

    Has any of the scolding or condemnation from the West or anyone else had any actual influence upon China’s behavior toward their Uyghur population, for example? Or toward Tibet?

    I wonder if our gracious host AE or anyone else who takes the popular view that “the 21st will be the Chinese century” is familiar with the arguments made by Michael Beckley in his book Unrivaled: Why America Will Remain the World’s Sole Superpower. (Cornell University Press, 2018) Link is to synopsis at American Enterprise Institute web site, where one also finds by the same author, The Chinese economic miracle: How much is real… how much is a mirage?, a chapter from white paper of his published one year ago (December, 2019).

  71. @Polemos
    @iffen


    I don’t think AI can get past the singularity without bringing along many of our faults.
     
    Do you think they will get a little help from above (above us, that is)?

    Do you think humans themselves also had a little help from above, or was it always a coming-of-age into self-awareness from below?

    Replies: @iffen

    Do you think humans themselves also had a little help from above

    I assume that you are not talking about stardust sprinkling down and coagulating into planets and such.

    Although it seems a bit lonely sometimes, I have no doubt that we are alone. Unless of course you are talking about other civilizations somewhere in the universe. I don’t think they would be inclined to help us even if they are there and could get to us.

    • Replies: @Polemos
    @iffen

    Have you ever read Peter Watts' science fiction novels? They might appeal to you. It's a thoroughly materialist take on consciousness being a mistake and intelligence not requiring a self, set in a larger story about post-humans making first contact with an alien intelligence.

    If we're alone, then what are we that we're the sort of thing that has conversations with one another about being the only sorts of things in this vast unending Space all around us capable of subjectivity?

    I apologize if my questions are tedious or boring. I found your comment to be very interesting, as thinking about Singular life as limited in distinct ways having had humans as models or tutors, pedagogues, is similar to indigenous or sensible stories that seek to understand humans via their gods who made them, rather than the sort of now traditional way to think of gods as the images or products of people inventing explanations for a godless world. I wonder if people who think of their gods as companions or friends, or even being made or formed from the same stuff/substrate as they are, and saw friendship as mutual reinforcement and camaraderie and support, would create robots who reflected those values, who would then go on to nurture other gods made from other metals and earths. I think there's a latent fear among various people that the kind of men who seek to create self-replicating machines, whether virtual or tangible or some synthesis of these (and other modalities?), aren't playing out a biological imperative to reproduce human forms, but reproduce either the aggrandized version of their own egos or the divergence of an autistic or an evacuated empathy — a spiritualization of ego, making it something that can go trans. There's a way to think about this from a Platonic perspective that becomes a judgment of our own spiritual guides, I think.

    Sorry also if this doesn't make any sense 💆🏻‍♂️
    I appreciate that you make more sense, and thank you for it.

    Replies: @iffen

    , @Dissident
    @iffen


    I have no doubt that we are alone.
     
    Have you considered, say, how prior to the discovery of radio waves, people might have reacted upon hearing that very concept described to them? Or the concept of an actual radio; that there would one day exist a box containing various wires, tubes and other objects, out of which one would hear the amplified voices and musical performances of people hundreds or even thousands of miles away? Imagine how someone who was completely unfamiliar with any of those concepts would have reacted upon hearing a description of any one them.

    Or, have you considered how you would have reacted if, still many years before the Internet and the smartphone would even be invented, someone were to have described them to you? If someone were to have insisted that if you would live long enough, you would one day witness the reality that you now have: a world in which the Internet and the smartphone are a ubiquitous part of everyday life?

    Or consider the same thought exercise about germs, atoms, molecules, or any other microscopic being or object before its existence had been discovered.

    To be absolutely certain that nothing exists beyond what we, in our limited mortal state, are able to perceive or comprehend? That there is no transcendent, divine being? No spirits of the dead, say, who dwell among us completely unseen and unseeable, unknown and unknowable to us, but who are aware of us? Just how rational is such certainty?

    Replies: @iffen

  72. @Polemos
    @Talha

    Group Action or synchronized walking:

    https://youtu.be/vREfRjJlRZo?t=166

    Replies: @Talha, @Twinkie

    Pretty amazing.

    Peace.

  73. @res
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Evidence?

    Replies: @anon

    You should know by now that mere evidence on the physical plane of reality doesn’t fit some Aristotelian Form or other inside his head, and is thus totally beneath his notice.

    • LOL: res, dfordoom, Twinkie
  74. @Grahamsno(G64)
    @Almost Missouri


    so something that seems to hold the possibility of a rapid and painless way out of these dysgenic blind alleys will naturally appeal to India.
     
    Beautifully articulated and yes vast swathes of the Indian demography are dysgenic sewages. You can't blame them for wanting to escape the iron laws of hereditary. The good news is that they are aware of it there's no fake pride involved.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Indians seem to have a problem with Covid-19 distancing …

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Help me interpret what is going on there. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is bemused (and mildly amused).

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  75. @anon
    @A123

    It would be interesting to have a two axis view for the issue. Scientific research on human gene editing (other than terminal genetic disorders):

    How many people in the poll have the slightest clue what is involved in CRISPR, or in "gene editing" at all? Heck, how many of them really know what "genes" are, beyond the mid-high Mendelian sense? How many of them have any sense at all of the failure modes of something like CRISPR?

    Refine that for this thread: how many PhD's outside of the appropriate niche actually have a clue what the current state of the art is regarding alleles that influence intelligence? How many self-taught philosophers are even numerate?

    Most people are ignorant about most things, just as a matter of probabilities. Therefore we can't answer some questions at all, really.

    It is not a resistance to science. Instead, there is unwillingness to bear the burden of damaged children from gene enhancement gone wrong.

    There's more than "burden" involved, there is a profound sense of loss as well. Small families don't cope as well with such a loss - if you have two children and one is permanently damaged, it's a different situation than in a case of one out of five. As you noted, outside of really obvious things like sickle-cell anemia, the risk/reward is not good at all. For parents of a single child, it would be devastating.

    Tangentially this is why I view the chances of China starting aggressive war as doubtful. Virtually the entire PLA consists of only-children. Getting too many of them killed would be a very bad situation for the current regime, it might approach "lost the Mandate of Heaven" badness.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @A123

    How many people in the poll have the slightest clue what is involved in CRISPR, or in “gene editing” at all? Heck, how many of them really know what “genes” are, beyond the mid-high Mendelian sense? How many of them have any sense at all of the failure modes of something like CRISPR?

    It’s another example of the complete worthlessness of opinion polls on any subject more complex than “do you prefer Korean food or Thai food”.

    On any even moderately complex issue the proportion of the population capable of holding an informed opinion is probably around 5%. If it’s a really complex issue that probably drops to 2% or less. Possibly much less.

    Opinion pollsters ask people questions that ordinary people cannot possibly answer. In fact ordinary people cannot possibly even understand the questions.

    It’s not a matter of stupidity. No-one can give an intelligent answer on a subject of which they have no specialised knowledge. You might as well ask me who’s going to win the World Lacrosse Championship this year. Unless I’m an ardent follower of professional lacrosse I’m not going to have the vaguest idea. I’m not even sure what lacrosse is.

    • Agree: Dissident
  76. @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    @advancedatheist


    It probably also sucks for Western Christians to realize that Buddhism has started to make inroads in the West. Buddhism has the advantage over Christianity in that it makes empirically testable claims, and that these claims don’t even depend on arguments over whether the Buddha existed historically
     
    It must really burn you up that atheists are such a genetic and social dead end that they are consistently dying off in favor of more fulfilling religions. Christianity has the advantage over atheism in that it actually makes materially self-consistent claims about spiritual truth without having to contradict itself with appeals to virtues that don't even exist according to their worldview (like you did in your second post: stupid, ugly, defective... lol, nice metaphysics fag).

    Hearing about a foreign religion’s beliefs doesn’t necessarily translate into an influence on your own beliefs. 

     

    Well he provided a concrete example of their Emperor himself being involved with Islam, what would you call influence then you twit?

    The Chinese don’t live in superstitious fear about “playing god,”
     
    Well even leaving aside your total ignorance of how traditional eastern philosophy would view the sanctity of the human person and the relationship of that to their own pantheon, that you are so flippant with the moral question of genetic engineering reveals what a provincial philistine you really are. "If it involves SCIENCE! it must be good!" Totally unable to see outside of your limited parochial prejudices, you are the superstitious peasant you think you're ridiculing. Genetics are so fundamental to what makes us who we are that to substantially alter them is basically to create a totally different person (not that the concept of distinct persons makes any sense in a materialistic worldview). You may as well ask why we don't just populate the world with robots and kill off all the people, robots will always be more efficient than even the brightest flesh and blood people.

    But if you're serious in your view that being the smartest/strongest/most beautiful is what really matters, then I have to ask, why are you still polluting the world with your mediocre presence? I know you must hold out hope that gene-editing will reach you in time, but you must know realistically it won't. You'll never be the world's smartest man, you'll never even be one-hundredth smartest commenter on unz dot com! You'll be the same useless dork, of middling intellect and lesser achievement until your dying day, so why are you even going through the motions?

    Replies: @Dissident

    You may as well ask why we don’t just populate the world with robots and kill off all the people, robots will always be more efficient than even the brightest flesh and blood people.

    Indeed, once one no longer considers the sanctity of human life absolute, there is no end to the rationalizations and justifications that can be made and where they may lead. And without belief in a transcendent, divine Master, morality and ethics can never be more than relative, situational, and ultimately instrumental. The very concept of inherent worth or good cannot ultimately exist, absent a transcendent arbiter.

    But if you’re serious in your view that being the smartest/strongest/most beautiful is what really matters,

    Absent a belief that life is inherently sacred, a life is only of value in so far as it serves as a means toward some perceivable goal.

    You raise compelling questions and present valid criticisms and challenges. I must challenge, though, your copious use of insults. Were many of them not gratuitous? Do you think that resorting to such name-calling enhances or bolsters your credibility or the quality or persuasiveness of your arguments?

    Lest you feel I have singled you out for special censure, let me assure you that I would offer the same challenge (and on occasion have) to any number of other commenters whom I have seen succumb to this same vice/ resort to this same crutch. Note, as well, that I make no moral judgments here.) In order to remain both credible and effective, as well as mature and honorable, debate should, at least as a rule, stick to argumentation from facts and logic.

  77. @Intelligent Dasein
    @neutral

    The African population explosion is a Covid-19-like globalist myth. Like climate change, it's a fabrication designed to advance political goals.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter, @V. K. Ovelund, @res, @dfordoom

    The African population explosion is a Covid-19-like globalist myth. Like climate change, it’s a fabrication designed to advance political goals.

    That’s awesome. A brand new conspiracy theory. I thought every possible conspiracy theory had already been thought up but it appears I was wrong. This is excellent news since what the political right badly needs at the moment is more conspiracy theories.

  78. @iffen
    @Polemos

    Do you think humans themselves also had a little help from above

    I assume that you are not talking about stardust sprinkling down and coagulating into planets and such.

    Although it seems a bit lonely sometimes, I have no doubt that we are alone. Unless of course you are talking about other civilizations somewhere in the universe. I don't think they would be inclined to help us even if they are there and could get to us.

    Replies: @Polemos, @Dissident

    Have you ever read Peter Watts’ science fiction novels? They might appeal to you. It’s a thoroughly materialist take on consciousness being a mistake and intelligence not requiring a self, set in a larger story about post-humans making first contact with an alien intelligence.

    If we’re alone, then what are we that we’re the sort of thing that has conversations with one another about being the only sorts of things in this vast unending Space all around us capable of subjectivity?

    I apologize if my questions are tedious or boring. I found your comment to be very interesting, as thinking about Singular life as limited in distinct ways having had humans as models or tutors, pedagogues, is similar to indigenous or sensible stories that seek to understand humans via their gods who made them, rather than the sort of now traditional way to think of gods as the images or products of people inventing explanations for a godless world. I wonder if people who think of their gods as companions or friends, or even being made or formed from the same stuff/substrate as they are, and saw friendship as mutual reinforcement and camaraderie and support, would create robots who reflected those values, who would then go on to nurture other gods made from other metals and earths. I think there’s a latent fear among various people that the kind of men who seek to create self-replicating machines, whether virtual or tangible or some synthesis of these (and other modalities?), aren’t playing out a biological imperative to reproduce human forms, but reproduce either the aggrandized version of their own egos or the divergence of an autistic or an evacuated empathy — a spiritualization of ego, making it something that can go trans. There’s a way to think about this from a Platonic perspective that becomes a judgment of our own spiritual guides, I think.

    Sorry also if this doesn’t make any sense 💆🏻‍♂️
    I appreciate that you make more sense, and thank you for it.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Polemos

    Thanks, you have packed quite a bit into that comment. Some of it might be above my pay grade so I will have to think about what you have written.

    One of the reasons that I think AI might not develop sans human characteristics, except problem solving, is my observation of the hyper-woke charges of racism in algorithms and AI. And then there is the V’ger problem.

    then what are we that we’re the sort of thing that has conversations with one another about being the only sorts of things in this vast unending Space all around us capable of subjectivity?

    Pulled from one of the cubby holes in my mind: star stuff contemplating itself.

    I don’t believe that this can be improved upon:


    “We have begun to contemplate our origins: starstuff pondering the stars; organized assemblages of ten billion billion billion atoms considering the evolution of atoms; tracing the long journey by which, here at least, consciousness arose.”
    ― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
     
    Have you ever read Peter Watts’ science fiction novels?

    I don’t read fiction anymore because in another cubby hole is: fact is stranger than fiction.

    “Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't.”
    ― Mark Twain, Following the Equator: A Journey Around the World
     
    but reproduce either the aggrandized version of their own egos or the divergence of an autistic or an evacuated empathy — a spiritualization of ego, making it something that can go trans.

    Haven’t we been up to something like this for several hundred thousand years?

    Replies: @anon, @Dissident

  79. @Polemos
    @Talha

    Group Action or synchronized walking:

    https://youtu.be/vREfRjJlRZo?t=166

    Replies: @Talha, @Twinkie

    Not as cool as this:

    Or my kids’ favorite:

    A couple of my girls are dancers (ballet, tap, and modern), and the whole time, they kept muttering “Wow, look at how many formation changes they do and how precise they are. Everyone is right where he is supposed to be after each formation change.”

  80. @advancedatheist
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Hearing about a foreign religion's beliefs doesn't necessarily translate into an influence on your own beliefs. The Jesuit missionaries who went to China realized that they faced an extraordinarily hard challenge in Christianizing such a radically different culture, and their project clearly failed.

    Besides, I've heard about Catholicism myself for as long as I can remember, yet I still view it an alien cult, even if my ancestors belonged to it a few generations back before the Reformation.

    It probably also sucks for Western Christians to realize that Buddhism has started to make inroads in the West. Buddhism has the advantage over Christianity in that it makes empirically testable claims, and that these claims don't even depend on arguments over whether the Buddha existed historically.

    Replies: @Athletic and Whitesplosive, @John Johnson

    It probably also sucks for Western Christians to realize that Buddhism has started to make inroads in the West. Buddhism has the advantage over Christianity in that it makes empirically testable claims, and that these claims don’t even depend on arguments over whether the Buddha existed historically.

    I guess you haven’t read much about Buddhism. Do tell how how past lives that affect the present are testable.

    Can start with Buddha’s headache:
    https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/English-Texts/Why-the-Buddha-Suffered/09-A-Headache.htm

  81. @advancedatheist
    @Jim Bob Lassiter

    Soviet-era firearms have found a market outside of the Soviet Union, even among American gun enthusiasts. Funny how no libertarian has written an essay titled, "I, the AK-47 Assault Rifle," to show that central planning can produce a complex and useful product.

    Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter, @Johnny Smoggins, @John Johnson

    Soviet-era firearms have found a market outside of the Soviet Union, even among American gun enthusiasts. Funny how no libertarian has written an essay titled, “I, the AK-47 Assault Rifle,” to show that central planning can produce a complex and useful product.

    Well gun enthusiasts know that the AK-47 is mostly a rip of the German STG-44.

    The Soviets were just good at mass producing them.

    Soviet firearms don’t have a market in the US. That hasn’t been true since the 90s.

    There are all kinds of import limitations on AKs as part of a left/right compromise. Most AKs sold today are built in the US.

    For someone calling themselves “advancedatheist” you really have a lot to learn.

    Probably need a name change.

    How about “sophomoricarrogantheist”

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @John Johnson


    Well gun enthusiasts know that the AK-47 is mostly a rip of the German STG-44.

    The Soviets were just good at mass producing them.
     
    There is some dispute on that topic.

    By the way, most “AK-47’s” we discuss today are really AKM’s and their clones. The original AK-47 did not have a hammer retarder (so a higher chance of kaboom without the cartridge being fully seated) and, though initially made of stamped steel, the production was changed to a forged receiver design due to tolerance issues, which in turn led to a more expensive construction. The AKM remedied and “modernized” its predecessor (back to stamped receiver of a different design), and went on to be mass produced cheaply.

    In comparison to the AR-15/M16/M4 series, the AKM is less precise, suffers from a poor balance (front heavy) and ergonomics, and has a primitive sighting system (and a goofy mounting system for optics). It also will hammer the receiver hard and eventually cause all kinds of issues, sometimes minor, sometimes serious. On the other hand, it is pretty robust and reliable during its service life, and can be maintained very easily (you can simply press a button at the back of the receiver and pop the top cover off and access the guts). And while the bullet it uses (7.62x39mm) is not as flat-shooting as the NATO 5.56x45mm, it does have better penetration and suffers less from wind and obstruction.

    For most armies with decent logistics and trained soldiers, the AR-15-based platforms are the way to go, but the AKM series has its charms. My wife has one of her own (highly customized by Marc Krebs) and she prefers it to her AR (a gas-piston LMT). She actually prefers a direct-impingement M-4 clone for its handiness and light weight best, but I haven’t given one to her since she won’t clean the chamber fastidiously.
  82. @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @Leander Starr

    The Chinese also have far fewer problems with multiculturalism (both racial and practical) than the USSR had. Also, ask yourself how it is that the USSR never successfully mass produced quality consumer products that were marketable outside its own boundaries?

    Replies: @advancedatheist, @John Johnson

    Also, ask yourself how it is that the USSR never successfully mass produced quality consumer products that were marketable outside its own boundaries?

    Consumer products? They couldn’t even feed themselves.

    Their exports were mostly raw materials and oil/gas. Also selling arms to third world countries.

    They were importing grain from those evil capitalists.

    What a joke of a system. Denouncing the west while buying food from them.

    Oh but Marx said they would surpass us in everything.

    Amazing that people still sign up for this idiocy and call themselves Marxist.

  83. @Polemos
    @iffen

    Have you ever read Peter Watts' science fiction novels? They might appeal to you. It's a thoroughly materialist take on consciousness being a mistake and intelligence not requiring a self, set in a larger story about post-humans making first contact with an alien intelligence.

    If we're alone, then what are we that we're the sort of thing that has conversations with one another about being the only sorts of things in this vast unending Space all around us capable of subjectivity?

    I apologize if my questions are tedious or boring. I found your comment to be very interesting, as thinking about Singular life as limited in distinct ways having had humans as models or tutors, pedagogues, is similar to indigenous or sensible stories that seek to understand humans via their gods who made them, rather than the sort of now traditional way to think of gods as the images or products of people inventing explanations for a godless world. I wonder if people who think of their gods as companions or friends, or even being made or formed from the same stuff/substrate as they are, and saw friendship as mutual reinforcement and camaraderie and support, would create robots who reflected those values, who would then go on to nurture other gods made from other metals and earths. I think there's a latent fear among various people that the kind of men who seek to create self-replicating machines, whether virtual or tangible or some synthesis of these (and other modalities?), aren't playing out a biological imperative to reproduce human forms, but reproduce either the aggrandized version of their own egos or the divergence of an autistic or an evacuated empathy — a spiritualization of ego, making it something that can go trans. There's a way to think about this from a Platonic perspective that becomes a judgment of our own spiritual guides, I think.

    Sorry also if this doesn't make any sense 💆🏻‍♂️
    I appreciate that you make more sense, and thank you for it.

    Replies: @iffen

    Thanks, you have packed quite a bit into that comment. Some of it might be above my pay grade so I will have to think about what you have written.

    One of the reasons that I think AI might not develop sans human characteristics, except problem solving, is my observation of the hyper-woke charges of racism in algorithms and AI. And then there is the V’ger problem.

    then what are we that we’re the sort of thing that has conversations with one another about being the only sorts of things in this vast unending Space all around us capable of subjectivity?

    Pulled from one of the cubby holes in my mind: star stuff contemplating itself.

    I don’t believe that this can be improved upon:

    “We have begun to contemplate our origins: starstuff pondering the stars; organized assemblages of ten billion billion billion atoms considering the evolution of atoms; tracing the long journey by which, here at least, consciousness arose.”
    ― Carl Sagan, Cosmos

    Have you ever read Peter Watts’ science fiction novels?

    I don’t read fiction anymore because in another cubby hole is: fact is stranger than fiction.

    “Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn’t.”
    ― Mark Twain, Following the Equator: A Journey Around the World

    but reproduce either the aggrandized version of their own egos or the divergence of an autistic or an evacuated empathy — a spiritualization of ego, making it something that can go trans.

    Haven’t we been up to something like this for several hundred thousand years?

    • Replies: @anon
    @iffen

    One of the reasons that I think AI might not develop sans human characteristics, except problem solving, is my observation of the hyper-woke charges of racism in algorithms and AI.

    So far anything called AI cannot solve any problem in the way a human can[1] has zero self awareness and essentially is a variation on the back-error-propagation model of the 1980's. Given a sufficiently large training set, these deep pattern recognizers can tease out matches from data that would take a human a long time.

    The so called AI's in a very rudimentary way notice patterns. It's not the algorithm that is "rayciss" per se, it is...reality. The real problem that Wokies have isn't with the so-called "Artificial Intellligence", it is with reality.

    By the ever-shifting Woke definition(s), reality itself is racist. AI's just notice and do not have any CrimeStop feature. Not yet, anyway, although there are some abstract ways to do that, I"m sure.

    [1] Some standard tests such as the "Traveling Salesman Problem" with any of the popular variations are quite solvable by even very basic systems, but there isn't any "there" solving it. It's probably about the same level of intelligence as a housefly, but in a larger package that cannot get off the ground.

    , @Dissident
    @iffen


    I don’t read fiction anymore because in another cubby hole is: fact is stranger than fiction.

    “Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn’t.”
    ― Mark Twain, Following the Equator: A Journey Around the World
     

     
    The trick is being able to figure-out how much of what is presented, accepted or perceived as truth and, certainly, history, is really fiction; and vice-versa. Not easy, or even always possible.

    Both consuming as well as composing fiction can provide an enticing, even intoxicating escape from the limitations and tribulations of reality. In fantasy, the only limitations are those of the imagination. ( This is a critical difference between radio and television/film/ even physical theater. The latter, visual mediums, are constrained to a very large degree not only by physical limitations but also, the viewer is constrained by having imposed upon him the specific visual imagery of the author's imagination and the performer's presentation.)

    Replies: @iffen

  84. @John Johnson
    @advancedatheist

    Soviet-era firearms have found a market outside of the Soviet Union, even among American gun enthusiasts. Funny how no libertarian has written an essay titled, “I, the AK-47 Assault Rifle,” to show that central planning can produce a complex and useful product.

    Well gun enthusiasts know that the AK-47 is mostly a rip of the German STG-44.

    The Soviets were just good at mass producing them.

    Soviet firearms don't have a market in the US. That hasn't been true since the 90s.

    There are all kinds of import limitations on AKs as part of a left/right compromise. Most AKs sold today are built in the US.

    For someone calling themselves "advancedatheist" you really have a lot to learn.

    Probably need a name change.

    How about "sophomoricarrogantheist"

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Well gun enthusiasts know that the AK-47 is mostly a rip of the German STG-44.

    The Soviets were just good at mass producing them.

    There is some dispute on that topic.

    By the way, most “AK-47’s” we discuss today are really AKM’s and their clones. The original AK-47 did not have a hammer retarder (so a higher chance of kaboom without the cartridge being fully seated) and, though initially made of stamped steel, the production was changed to a forged receiver design due to tolerance issues, which in turn led to a more expensive construction. The AKM remedied and “modernized” its predecessor (back to stamped receiver of a different design), and went on to be mass produced cheaply.

    In comparison to the AR-15/M16/M4 series, the AKM is less precise, suffers from a poor balance (front heavy) and ergonomics, and has a primitive sighting system (and a goofy mounting system for optics). It also will hammer the receiver hard and eventually cause all kinds of issues, sometimes minor, sometimes serious. On the other hand, it is pretty robust and reliable during its service life, and can be maintained very easily (you can simply press a button at the back of the receiver and pop the top cover off and access the guts). And while the bullet it uses (7.62x39mm) is not as flat-shooting as the NATO 5.56x45mm, it does have better penetration and suffers less from wind and obstruction.

    For most armies with decent logistics and trained soldiers, the AR-15-based platforms are the way to go, but the AKM series has its charms. My wife has one of her own (highly customized by Marc Krebs) and she prefers it to her AR (a gas-piston LMT). She actually prefers a direct-impingement M-4 clone for its handiness and light weight best, but I haven’t given one to her since she won’t clean the chamber fastidiously.

  85. @Wyatt
    @BCB232


    He said he met multiple people who had no problem saying that they admired Hitler.
     
    I don't know why they would admire him. He invaded Russia during the winter, he trusted the English, dismissed America as a force of reckoning and cared more about his wunderwaffe than securing a nuke. Those mistakes were too critical for him to be considered a leader worthy of admiration, but aside from those foibles, I don't see any other problems with his leadership or decisions.
    :P

    Replies: @BCB232

    The individuals from India said that they admired him because he “stood up for his people” or something like that. This is what my Christian friend told me.

  86. @Almost Missouri
    @Realist

    "...blame both sides..." zzzzzzzzz

    C'mon man, that's a blue-check Twitter-tier take.

    It's not "equally stupid" if one side rationally believes that a higher intelligence knows better than they do, while the other side irrationally believes that they are the highest intelligence yet still embraces the manifestly stupid, ugly, defective and broken. Talk about a self-own.

    Replies: @John Johnson, @Realist

    It’s not “equally stupid” if one side rationally believes that a higher intelligence knows better than they do, while the other side irrationally believes that they are the highest intelligence yet still embraces the manifestly stupid, ugly, defective and broken.

    It is not rational to believe in something that has no proof of existence. You’re spouting religious dogma.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Realist


    It is not rational to believe in something that has no proof of existence. You’re spouting religious dogma.
     
    Mind-body problem. Plato's cave.
  87. @John Johnson
    @Realist

    True, but the religious rightists are against genetic engineering for equally stupid reasons.

    They don't have any serious influence into such areas and are ruthlessly mocked and denigrated by the media. The religious right has pretty much retreated and is used more as a routine punching bag for the liberal establishment.

    Meanwhile the same liberal media tells the public that race doesn't exist because science says so and White people are simply to blame for all inequality. Anyone who questions this narrative in public is treated like a mass murderer.

    The left is terrified of genetic engineering because they are afraid of what the public will learn, not what will become. They have most Whites convinced that race is only superficial and blank slate is for the most part true. Genetic engineering research could easily undermine their work.

    Replies: @Realist, @Audacious Epigone

    Meanwhile the same liberal media tells the public that race doesn’t exist because science says so and White people are simply to blame for all inequality. Anyone who questions this narrative in public is treated like a mass murderer.

    Yes, both sides eschew the science that doesn’t fit their narrative.

  88. anon[421] • Disclaimer says:
    @iffen
    @Polemos

    Thanks, you have packed quite a bit into that comment. Some of it might be above my pay grade so I will have to think about what you have written.

    One of the reasons that I think AI might not develop sans human characteristics, except problem solving, is my observation of the hyper-woke charges of racism in algorithms and AI. And then there is the V’ger problem.

    then what are we that we’re the sort of thing that has conversations with one another about being the only sorts of things in this vast unending Space all around us capable of subjectivity?

    Pulled from one of the cubby holes in my mind: star stuff contemplating itself.

    I don’t believe that this can be improved upon:


    “We have begun to contemplate our origins: starstuff pondering the stars; organized assemblages of ten billion billion billion atoms considering the evolution of atoms; tracing the long journey by which, here at least, consciousness arose.”
    ― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
     
    Have you ever read Peter Watts’ science fiction novels?

    I don’t read fiction anymore because in another cubby hole is: fact is stranger than fiction.

    “Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't.”
    ― Mark Twain, Following the Equator: A Journey Around the World
     
    but reproduce either the aggrandized version of their own egos or the divergence of an autistic or an evacuated empathy — a spiritualization of ego, making it something that can go trans.

    Haven’t we been up to something like this for several hundred thousand years?

    Replies: @anon, @Dissident

    One of the reasons that I think AI might not develop sans human characteristics, except problem solving, is my observation of the hyper-woke charges of racism in algorithms and AI.

    So far anything called AI cannot solve any problem in the way a human can[1] has zero self awareness and essentially is a variation on the back-error-propagation model of the 1980’s. Given a sufficiently large training set, these deep pattern recognizers can tease out matches from data that would take a human a long time.

    The so called AI’s in a very rudimentary way notice patterns. It’s not the algorithm that is “rayciss” per se, it is…reality. The real problem that Wokies have isn’t with the so-called “Artificial Intellligence”, it is with reality.

    By the ever-shifting Woke definition(s), reality itself is racist. AI’s just notice and do not have any CrimeStop feature. Not yet, anyway, although there are some abstract ways to do that, I”m sure.

    [1] Some standard tests such as the “Traveling Salesman Problem” with any of the popular variations are quite solvable by even very basic systems, but there isn’t any “there” solving it. It’s probably about the same level of intelligence as a housefly, but in a larger package that cannot get off the ground.

  89. It is not rational to believe in something that has no proof of existence.

    There may not be empirical proofs for the Divine, but there are many rational proofs. Otherwise one has to conclude men who believed in the Divine, like Newton, Pascal, Leibniz were all irrational people – that’s a hard sell.

    As a refresher, since this thread is about science, it’s always good to review the limits of science as expounded by the men who have studied and written about its foundations, like Hugh Gauch (of Cornell Univ.) who wrote a very accessible book on the Scientific Method:
    “Several limitations of science are rather obvious and hence are not controversial. The most obvious limitation is that scientists will never observe, know, and explain everything about even science’s own domain, the physical world. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle, Godel’s theorem and chaos theory set fundamental limits. (pg 96)…
    Methodological naturalism contrasts with metaphysical or ontological naturalism that asserts natural entities exist but nothing is supernatural, as claimed by atheists. Hence, methodological naturalism does not deny that the supernatural exists but rather stipulates that it is outside science’s purview. Unfortunately, methodological naturalism is sometimes confused with ontological naturalism. To insist that science obeys methodological naturalism and that science supports atheism is to get high marks for enthusiasm but low marks for logic. (pg 98)”
    Scientific Method in Brief (Cambridge Univ. Press)

    Peace.

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
    • Replies: @Dissident
    @Talha

    I appreciate this post and would mostly agree but I do wish to challenge one point of yours.


    There may not be empirical proofs for the Divine, but there are many rational proofs. Otherwise one has to conclude men who believed in the Divine, like Newton, Pascal, Leibniz were all irrational people – that’s a hard sell.
     
    Is it not entirely possible, common even, for an otherwise rational man to hold an irrational belief?

    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?

    Replies: @Talha, @iffen, @V. K. Ovelund

  90. @anon
    @A123

    It would be interesting to have a two axis view for the issue. Scientific research on human gene editing (other than terminal genetic disorders):

    How many people in the poll have the slightest clue what is involved in CRISPR, or in "gene editing" at all? Heck, how many of them really know what "genes" are, beyond the mid-high Mendelian sense? How many of them have any sense at all of the failure modes of something like CRISPR?

    Refine that for this thread: how many PhD's outside of the appropriate niche actually have a clue what the current state of the art is regarding alleles that influence intelligence? How many self-taught philosophers are even numerate?

    Most people are ignorant about most things, just as a matter of probabilities. Therefore we can't answer some questions at all, really.

    It is not a resistance to science. Instead, there is unwillingness to bear the burden of damaged children from gene enhancement gone wrong.

    There's more than "burden" involved, there is a profound sense of loss as well. Small families don't cope as well with such a loss - if you have two children and one is permanently damaged, it's a different situation than in a case of one out of five. As you noted, outside of really obvious things like sickle-cell anemia, the risk/reward is not good at all. For parents of a single child, it would be devastating.

    Tangentially this is why I view the chances of China starting aggressive war as doubtful. Virtually the entire PLA consists of only-children. Getting too many of them killed would be a very bad situation for the current regime, it might approach "lost the Mandate of Heaven" badness.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @A123

    How many people in the poll have the slightest clue what is involved in CRISPR, or in “gene editing” at all?

    Most people are ignorant about most things, just as a matter of probabilities. Therefore we can’t answer some questions at all, really.

    You may get an *better* answer from those without technical details.

    The question will be perceived as, “Would you genetically enhance your child that you just conceived?”

    After being deceived by Dr. Fauci…. Why would anyone trust an M.D. claiming that baby-editing is safe & effective?

    The only parents who would roll those rice are those who have little to lose. For example, their child has a life threatening genetic defect.

    PEACE 😇

  91. @advancedatheist
    The Chinese don't live in superstitious fear about "playing god," because their civilization developed independently from the influence of the Abrahamic creation myth.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein, @Joe Paluka

    The finest hour of Chinese genetic science will come when they can grow good quality dog meat independent of the dog. A new age of culinary excellence will open up, Beagle Burgers, Pekingese Patties and Wok the Whippet. I can hardly wait!

  92. @Realist
    @Almost Missouri


    It’s not “equally stupid” if one side rationally believes that a higher intelligence knows better than they do, while the other side irrationally believes that they are the highest intelligence yet still embraces the manifestly stupid, ugly, defective and broken.
     
    It is not rational to believe in something that has no proof of existence. You're spouting religious dogma.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    It is not rational to believe in something that has no proof of existence. You’re spouting religious dogma.

    Mind-body problem. Plato’s cave.

    • Thanks: Realist
  93. @Anatoly Karlin
    Perhaps surprisingly, given existing tropes, but Chinese numbers are similar to American ones: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/who-will-dominate-the-crispr-arms-race/

    About 62% of Chinese support genetic edits to children likely to develop a fatal genetic disease, versus 60% of Americans who would change a baby’s genes to reduce of the risk of a serious disease that could occur over the child’s life.

    However, only about 23% of Chinese would support gene editing for improving intelligence, versus 19% of Americans.
     
    23% support for intelligence edits is just the upper range of Europeans:

    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/poll-gene-editing-babies-2020.png

    For whatever reason, it seems to be Third World publics which are more accepting of it (as well as vaccines - there might be a correlation).

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Almost Missouri, @Bardon Kaldian

    I don’t see answers from Africans, especially re IQ enhancement….

  94. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Your comment leaves me in the dark.


    The African population explosion is a Covid-19-like globalist myth.
     
    It is?

    Like climate change, it’s a fabrication designed to advance political goals.
     
    You usually have interesting takes, so a comment of yours is not to be dismissed, but I don't get it. The fabrication has apparently taken me in. Kindly elaborate.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    I won’t be able to get a reply together before the thread closes, but as the matter is an important one, I will contact you privately.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Intelligent Dasein

    It should be trivial for you to demonstrate the accuracy of your statement regarding African population growth in public, and using fewer than 10,000 words.

    , @A123
    @Intelligent Dasein

    There are plenty in reasons to doubt that an African population explosion will occur. Mostly around what is colloquially know at the "Law of the Minimum":


    Liebig ... growth is dictated not by total resources available, but by the scarcest resource (limiting factor).
     
    Should we use this as an approximate short-term explanation until you post something in long form.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @anon

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Intelligent Dasein

    I too would like to learn, even at second hand, about ID's debunking of the Afro pop explosion.

    Note though, while it may very well be true that 4 billion Africans won't happen (whether because of e.g. faulty statistics or insufficient food production), that does not mean that Africa cannot be an effectively infinite source of migration to the first world, which is the real hazard that lies beneath everyone's surface concern for "African overpopulation". Whatever the limits to African population growth in Africa, it only takes a few million migrants per year to inundate the first world (a mere rounding error to Africa), and once in the first world, African population constraints no longer pertain while Western pathological altruism suddenly does, to the benefit of the migrants and to the detriment of the Westerners.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

  95. @Intelligent Dasein
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I won't be able to get a reply together before the thread closes, but as the matter is an important one, I will contact you privately.

    Replies: @anon, @A123, @Almost Missouri

    It should be trivial for you to demonstrate the accuracy of your statement regarding African population growth in public, and using fewer than 10,000 words.

  96. @Intelligent Dasein
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I won't be able to get a reply together before the thread closes, but as the matter is an important one, I will contact you privately.

    Replies: @anon, @A123, @Almost Missouri

    There are plenty in reasons to doubt that an African population explosion will occur. Mostly around what is colloquially know at the “Law of the Minimum”:

    Liebig … growth is dictated not by total resources available, but by the scarcest resource (limiting factor).

    Should we use this as an approximate short-term explanation until you post something in long form.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @anon
    @A123

    Name the scarcest resource in Africa that will limit population growth at some point in the future.

    Then explain why it is not in effect yet.

    Or you could explain how a TFR > 4 will somehow not lead to a population increase.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/356rank.html

    Innumeracy is just as bad as illiteracy.

    Replies: @Talha, @Intelligent Dasein

  97. anon[350] • Disclaimer says:
    @A123
    @Intelligent Dasein

    There are plenty in reasons to doubt that an African population explosion will occur. Mostly around what is colloquially know at the "Law of the Minimum":


    Liebig ... growth is dictated not by total resources available, but by the scarcest resource (limiting factor).
     
    Should we use this as an approximate short-term explanation until you post something in long form.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @anon

    Name the scarcest resource in Africa that will limit population growth at some point in the future.

    Then explain why it is not in effect yet.

    Or you could explain how a TFR > 4 will somehow not lead to a population increase.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/356rank.html

    Innumeracy is just as bad as illiteracy.

    • Replies: @Talha
    @anon


    Or you could explain...
     
    https://media.tenor.com/images/1d223734962cdf3a897a0bd701019091/tenor.gif

    Peace.
    , @Intelligent Dasein
    @anon


    Name the scarcest resource in Africa that will limit population growth at some point in the future.
     
    Food. There is not a single Sub-Saharan African country that is self-sufficient in food production, let alone the infrastructure to distribute food, medicine, and energy.

    Then explain why it is not in effect yet.
     
    It is.

    Or you could explain how a TFR > 4 will somehow not lead to a population increase.
     
    It's called child mortality, you dumb motherfucker. Pacific cod have a TFR of >10,000 but they are not overrunning the planet. Why? Because 9,999 of them die before reaching reproductive age.

    Innumeracy is just as bad as illiteracy.
     
    You don't say?

    Replies: @anon, @A123, @Mike Tre, @Menes

  98. @anon
    @A123

    Name the scarcest resource in Africa that will limit population growth at some point in the future.

    Then explain why it is not in effect yet.

    Or you could explain how a TFR > 4 will somehow not lead to a population increase.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/356rank.html

    Innumeracy is just as bad as illiteracy.

    Replies: @Talha, @Intelligent Dasein

    Or you could explain…

    Peace.

  99. @anon
    @A123

    Name the scarcest resource in Africa that will limit population growth at some point in the future.

    Then explain why it is not in effect yet.

    Or you could explain how a TFR > 4 will somehow not lead to a population increase.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/356rank.html

    Innumeracy is just as bad as illiteracy.

    Replies: @Talha, @Intelligent Dasein

    Name the scarcest resource in Africa that will limit population growth at some point in the future.

    Food. There is not a single Sub-Saharan African country that is self-sufficient in food production, let alone the infrastructure to distribute food, medicine, and energy.

    Then explain why it is not in effect yet.

    It is.

    Or you could explain how a TFR > 4 will somehow not lead to a population increase.

    It’s called child mortality, you dumb motherfucker. Pacific cod have a TFR of >10,000 but they are not overrunning the planet. Why? Because 9,999 of them die before reaching reproductive age.

    Innumeracy is just as bad as illiteracy.

    You don’t say?

    • Replies: @anon
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Food. There is not a single Sub-Saharan African country that is self-sufficient in food production...

    African self sufficiency in food is not necessary due to food aid from outside. In fact, European and US food aid tends to drive local farmers out of business. This isn't new, it was noticed 30 or 40 years ago. OxFam, Save the Children, CARE and other organizations involved have been wrangling over the issue for decades. There's a lot of foolishness as well as overt corruption in food aid to Africa all along the logistic chain, from the US to the African city.

    But that's a side issue, the fact is food aid to Africa continues, and the African population continues to increase. Therefore it is not necessary for Africa to be self sufficient in food - white people will provide as a form of charity just as we have for the last 70 or so years, if not longer.

    ...let alone the infrastructure to distribute food, medicine, and energy.

    The city of Lagos has an estimated population of about 20,000,000 people. It has a larger population than Cairo, Egypt. Obviously that requires infrastructure to distribute food, medicine and energy. There are multiple other cities in sub-Saharan Africa with populations over 1,000,000. However poor the infrastructure in those cities may be compared to cities in Europe, East Asia or the Anglosphere, it is obviously sufficient to meet the needs of Africans. That is why those cities continue to grow in population.

    Here is a list of urban agglomerations in Africa with estimated population as of 2010. Note how many have a population in excess of 1,000,000.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_Africa


    Or you could explain how a TFR > 4 will somehow not lead to a population increase.
     
    It’s called child mortality,

    Child mortality in Africa has been declining for years. That's why populations of all African countries have been growing for years. The various population projections for Africa through the year 2100 take the historical level of child mortality into account. By the way, what are the actual child mortality estimates for African countries south of the Sahara? I'm sure you have those numbers available right now. Why not post them?

    you dumb motherfucker.

    Which Aristotelian Form are you engaging with these words? Please do explain in detail.

    Pacific cod have a TFR of >10,000 but they are not overrunning the planet. Why? Because 9,999 of them die before reaching reproductive age.

    I'm pretty sure that humans in Africa are smarter than Pacific cod, and receive a lot of medical & food aid from outside of Africa. That might explain why all Africa population continues to grow in a different manner than the population of Pacific cod.

    Perhaps you could try doing a bit of research, and come back with some facts? I have generously provided you with a list of the largest cities in Africa, maybe you could start there.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    , @A123
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Interesting.

    The limiting factor I first think of for Africa is Water & Sewer [W&S]. It will not take much in degradation of water quality before disease begins competing with fertility. This is a very grim trade off for the human condition.

    -- I have to concede that your call on food makes immediate sense. There is still room for gains from simple systems (e.g. Septic Tanks), but there is not much further to go on that track. Even when working, septic fields tend to release nutrients to the water system.

    -- The next level is capital intensive city-style water and sewer. Much of Sub-Saharan Africa cannot fund this type of solution. Perhaps the "One Pepe Belt, One Escobar Road" solution will provide Chinese funding. However, Belt projects are more likely to focus on resource extraction.

    The two concepts do tie together. One of the key constraints for Agriculture is Water Quality.

    PEACE 😇

    , @Mike Tre
    @Intelligent Dasein

    I'm reminded of this infamous tirade with your "dumb motherfucker" comment:


    https://youtu.be/QOZxT9MHAJU?t=205

    , @Menes
    @Intelligent Dasein


    There is not a single Sub-Saharan African country that is self-sufficient in food production
     
    Ignorant bullcrap. Educate yourself:

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/africa-in-focus/2020/12/14/unpacking-the-misconceptions-about-africas-food-imports/


    Sub-Saharan Africa’s spiraling food import bill—which stood at $43 billion in 2019—has attracted mounting attention as a worrisome trend. For years, many pundits have wondered why Africa seems increasingly unable to feed itself, despite having much of the world’s remaining unutilized arable land.

    This alarming narrative is largely inaccurate. Our research, which disaggregates sub-Saharan Africa’s (SSA) agricultural trade performance by country and type, shows that four countries—Nigeria, Angola, the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), and Somalia—account for most of SSA’s net agricultural import position. The rest of the countries in the region are actually net agricultural exporters.

    Sub-Saharan Africa’s food imports are not rising. While the value of SSA food imports rose rapidly during 2005-2011, the annual value of those imports has actually declined slightly and then leveled off since 2011, as shown in Figure 1. While the African Development Bank projected that Africa’s food imports would reach $90 billion by 2030, these projections were based on trends during 2000-2010—a period when global food prices rose rapidly—and do not reflect the more recent 2011-2019 period during which the value of SSA’s food imports has been relatively flat. The fact that—even with rapidly growing demand for food driven by population growth and rising per capita incomes—the value of SSA food imports has not continued to rise over the past decade can be explained by the region’s success in expanding food production.

    In fact, SSA has recorded the highest rate of agricultural production growth of any region of the world since 2000.

     

  100. @Intelligent Dasein
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I won't be able to get a reply together before the thread closes, but as the matter is an important one, I will contact you privately.

    Replies: @anon, @A123, @Almost Missouri

    I too would like to learn, even at second hand, about ID’s debunking of the Afro pop explosion.

    Note though, while it may very well be true that 4 billion Africans won’t happen (whether because of e.g. faulty statistics or insufficient food production), that does not mean that Africa cannot be an effectively infinite source of migration to the first world, which is the real hazard that lies beneath everyone’s surface concern for “African overpopulation”. Whatever the limits to African population growth in Africa, it only takes a few million migrants per year to inundate the first world (a mere rounding error to Africa), and once in the first world, African population constraints no longer pertain while Western pathological altruism suddenly does, to the benefit of the migrants and to the detriment of the Westerners.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    @Almost Missouri


    I too would like to learn, even at second hand, about ID’s debunking of the Afro pop explosion.
     
    I will post it once it's done. I will try to drop it into a relevant thread but it may end up being an OT essay bomb. Hopefully that won't cause too much trouble.

    Replies: @Talha, @V. K. Ovelund

  101. anon[133] • Disclaimer says:
    @Intelligent Dasein
    @anon


    Name the scarcest resource in Africa that will limit population growth at some point in the future.
     
    Food. There is not a single Sub-Saharan African country that is self-sufficient in food production, let alone the infrastructure to distribute food, medicine, and energy.

    Then explain why it is not in effect yet.
     
    It is.

    Or you could explain how a TFR > 4 will somehow not lead to a population increase.
     
    It's called child mortality, you dumb motherfucker. Pacific cod have a TFR of >10,000 but they are not overrunning the planet. Why? Because 9,999 of them die before reaching reproductive age.

    Innumeracy is just as bad as illiteracy.
     
    You don't say?

    Replies: @anon, @A123, @Mike Tre, @Menes

    Food. There is not a single Sub-Saharan African country that is self-sufficient in food production…

    African self sufficiency in food is not necessary due to food aid from outside. In fact, European and US food aid tends to drive local farmers out of business. This isn’t new, it was noticed 30 or 40 years ago. OxFam, Save the Children, CARE and other organizations involved have been wrangling over the issue for decades. There’s a lot of foolishness as well as overt corruption in food aid to Africa all along the logistic chain, from the US to the African city.

    But that’s a side issue, the fact is food aid to Africa continues, and the African population continues to increase. Therefore it is not necessary for Africa to be self sufficient in food – white people will provide as a form of charity just as we have for the last 70 or so years, if not longer.

    …let alone the infrastructure to distribute food, medicine, and energy.

    The city of Lagos has an estimated population of about 20,000,000 people. It has a larger population than Cairo, Egypt. Obviously that requires infrastructure to distribute food, medicine and energy. There are multiple other cities in sub-Saharan Africa with populations over 1,000,000. However poor the infrastructure in those cities may be compared to cities in Europe, East Asia or the Anglosphere, it is obviously sufficient to meet the needs of Africans. That is why those cities continue to grow in population.

    Here is a list of urban agglomerations in Africa with estimated population as of 2010. Note how many have a population in excess of 1,000,000.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_Africa

    Or you could explain how a TFR > 4 will somehow not lead to a population increase.

    It’s called child mortality,

    Child mortality in Africa has been declining for years. That’s why populations of all African countries have been growing for years. The various population projections for Africa through the year 2100 take the historical level of child mortality into account. By the way, what are the actual child mortality estimates for African countries south of the Sahara? I’m sure you have those numbers available right now. Why not post them?

    you dumb motherfucker.

    Which Aristotelian Form are you engaging with these words? Please do explain in detail.

    Pacific cod have a TFR of >10,000 but they are not overrunning the planet. Why? Because 9,999 of them die before reaching reproductive age.

    I’m pretty sure that humans in Africa are smarter than Pacific cod, and receive a lot of medical & food aid from outside of Africa. That might explain why all Africa population continues to grow in a different manner than the population of Pacific cod.

    Perhaps you could try doing a bit of research, and come back with some facts? I have generously provided you with a list of the largest cities in Africa, maybe you could start there.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    @anon


    The city of Lagos has an estimated population of about 20,000,000 people.
     
    No. The city of Lagos has an actual population of 8 million according to the UN's own census. The Nigerian government simply rebuked the UN's numbers and then inflated the population by a factor of 2.5. This is all right there on the Wikipedia page, if you care to look.

    And if this is going on in Lagos, which is the pinnacle of African civilization (such as it is), what do you think is going on in the rest of the continent? This is one of the points I'm going to talk about in more detail later.

    Replies: @anon

  102. anon[282] • Disclaimer says:

    Adding on to my previous comment, there is a way for Africa to become nearly independent with regard to basic food. 60 years ago Rhodesia was a net exporter of grain and other foodstuffs, mostly to other African countries. Then independence and other political events occurred, leading up to massive land seizures by the Mugabe regime about 20 years ago. This was followed by food shortages – who could have seen that coming?

    Earlier this year the new regime offered to pay white farmers a total of $3.5 billion in compensation for lost infrastructure – not the land, the infrastructure. Now something else is happening.

    Here are a couple of sources.

    https://www.thezimbabwenewslive.com/white-farmers-quietly-returning-to-their-farms/
    https://www.zimbabwesituation.com/news/zimbabwe-white-farmers-returning-to-once-seized-land/

    Note the bitter quote from ZANU-PF. Not surprising, frankly. That blank slate…it’s a foundation to various forms of Communism. Although not Chinese communism anymore.

    Perhaps the Zim regime now prefers to welcome English speaking white farmers back into their country vs. Chinese farmers? The Chinese who took over some farming in 2016 went into the tobacco business, if I remember correctly. Profitable for them but not edible.

    If the temperate zones of southern Africa return to the level of agricultural productivity circa 1960 those countries would be independent in food and exporting to other parts of Africa. However given the Borlaug revolution it is likely that crop yields would be even higher.

    tl;dr there’s more than one way for the population of Africa to continue growing.

    PS: The combination of insatiable curiosity, a good search engine and a humble approach to learning is very powerful.

  103. @Intelligent Dasein
    @anon


    Name the scarcest resource in Africa that will limit population growth at some point in the future.
     
    Food. There is not a single Sub-Saharan African country that is self-sufficient in food production, let alone the infrastructure to distribute food, medicine, and energy.

    Then explain why it is not in effect yet.
     
    It is.

    Or you could explain how a TFR > 4 will somehow not lead to a population increase.
     
    It's called child mortality, you dumb motherfucker. Pacific cod have a TFR of >10,000 but they are not overrunning the planet. Why? Because 9,999 of them die before reaching reproductive age.

    Innumeracy is just as bad as illiteracy.
     
    You don't say?

    Replies: @anon, @A123, @Mike Tre, @Menes

    Interesting.

    The limiting factor I first think of for Africa is Water & Sewer [W&S]. It will not take much in degradation of water quality before disease begins competing with fertility. This is a very grim trade off for the human condition.

    — I have to concede that your call on food makes immediate sense. There is still room for gains from simple systems (e.g. Septic Tanks), but there is not much further to go on that track. Even when working, septic fields tend to release nutrients to the water system.

    — The next level is capital intensive city-style water and sewer. Much of Sub-Saharan Africa cannot fund this type of solution. Perhaps the “One Pepe Belt, One Escobar Road” solution will provide Chinese funding. However, Belt projects are more likely to focus on resource extraction.

    The two concepts do tie together. One of the key constraints for Agriculture is Water Quality.

    PEACE 😇

  104. @Talha

    It is not rational to believe in something that has no proof of existence.
     
    There may not be empirical proofs for the Divine, but there are many rational proofs. Otherwise one has to conclude men who believed in the Divine, like Newton, Pascal, Leibniz were all irrational people - that's a hard sell.

    As a refresher, since this thread is about science, it's always good to review the limits of science as expounded by the men who have studied and written about its foundations, like Hugh Gauch (of Cornell Univ.) who wrote a very accessible book on the Scientific Method:
    “Several limitations of science are rather obvious and hence are not controversial. The most obvious limitation is that scientists will never observe, know, and explain everything about even science’s own domain, the physical world. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle, Godel’s theorem and chaos theory set fundamental limits. (pg 96)…
    Methodological naturalism contrasts with metaphysical or ontological naturalism that asserts natural entities exist but nothing is supernatural, as claimed by atheists. Hence, methodological naturalism does not deny that the supernatural exists but rather stipulates that it is outside science’s purview. Unfortunately, methodological naturalism is sometimes confused with ontological naturalism. To insist that science obeys methodological naturalism and that science supports atheism is to get high marks for enthusiasm but low marks for logic. (pg 98)”
    Scientific Method in Brief (Cambridge Univ. Press)

    Peace.

    Replies: @Dissident

    I appreciate this post and would mostly agree but I do wish to challenge one point of yours.

    There may not be empirical proofs for the Divine, but there are many rational proofs. Otherwise one has to conclude men who believed in the Divine, like Newton, Pascal, Leibniz were all irrational people – that’s a hard sell.

    Is it not entirely possible, common even, for an otherwise rational man to hold an irrational belief?

    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?

    • Replies: @Talha
    @Dissident


    Is it not entirely possible, common even, for an otherwise rational man to hold an irrational belief?
     
    Well, I do have to admit you've got a point there...I mean people who believed in the Roman pantheon nevertheless built the formidable Roman Republic then Empire.

    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?
     
    Likely not.

    Peace.

    Replies: @RSDB

    , @iffen
    @Dissident

    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?

    I assume that you mean other than certain UR commenters that I shall not name.

    , @V. K. Ovelund
    @Dissident


    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?
     
    I love this question, though I do not know the answer.

    There appear to exist men who believe that they hold only rational beliefs. In my observation, ironically, those men seem to end up being the most irrational of all.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein, @Dissident

  105. @iffen
    @Polemos

    Do you think humans themselves also had a little help from above

    I assume that you are not talking about stardust sprinkling down and coagulating into planets and such.

    Although it seems a bit lonely sometimes, I have no doubt that we are alone. Unless of course you are talking about other civilizations somewhere in the universe. I don't think they would be inclined to help us even if they are there and could get to us.

    Replies: @Polemos, @Dissident

    I have no doubt that we are alone.

    Have you considered, say, how prior to the discovery of radio waves, people might have reacted upon hearing that very concept described to them? Or the concept of an actual radio; that there would one day exist a box containing various wires, tubes and other objects, out of which one would hear the amplified voices and musical performances of people hundreds or even thousands of miles away? Imagine how someone who was completely unfamiliar with any of those concepts would have reacted upon hearing a description of any one them.

    Or, have you considered how you would have reacted if, still many years before the Internet and the smartphone would even be invented, someone were to have described them to you? If someone were to have insisted that if you would live long enough, you would one day witness the reality that you now have: a world in which the Internet and the smartphone are a ubiquitous part of everyday life?

    Or consider the same thought exercise about germs, atoms, molecules, or any other microscopic being or object before its existence had been discovered.

    To be absolutely certain that nothing exists beyond what we, in our limited mortal state, are able to perceive or comprehend? That there is no transcendent, divine being? No spirits of the dead, say, who dwell among us completely unseen and unseeable, unknown and unknowable to us, but who are aware of us? Just how rational is such certainty?

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Dissident


    I have no doubt that we are alone.

    Just how rational is such certainty?
     

    You drive a hard bargain. What are you, Jewish? :)

    Okay, I accede to the possibility that there is another "dimension" of which we are unaware and perhaps will never be aware. But if such a dimension exists, it will be indifferent, not just to the affairs of humans but to the universe.

    Replies: @Dissident

  106. @Dissident
    @Talha

    I appreciate this post and would mostly agree but I do wish to challenge one point of yours.


    There may not be empirical proofs for the Divine, but there are many rational proofs. Otherwise one has to conclude men who believed in the Divine, like Newton, Pascal, Leibniz were all irrational people – that’s a hard sell.
     
    Is it not entirely possible, common even, for an otherwise rational man to hold an irrational belief?

    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?

    Replies: @Talha, @iffen, @V. K. Ovelund

    Is it not entirely possible, common even, for an otherwise rational man to hold an irrational belief?

    Well, I do have to admit you’ve got a point there…I mean people who believed in the Roman pantheon nevertheless built the formidable Roman Republic then Empire.

    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?

    Likely not.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Talha


    Well, I do have to admit you’ve got a point there…I mean people who believed in the Roman pantheon nevertheless built the formidable Roman Republic then Empire.

     

    Polybius thought it may have helped:

    Wherefore, to my mind, the ancients were not acting without purpose or at random, when they brought in among the vulgar those opinions about the gods, and the belief in the punishments in Hades: much rather do I think that men nowadays are acting rashly and foolishly in rejecting them. This is the reason why, apart from anything else, Greek statesmen, if entrusted with a single talent, though protected by ten checking-clerks, as many seals, and twice as many witnesses, yet cannot be induced to keep faith: whereas among the Romans, in their magistracies and embassies, men have the handling of a great amount of money, and yet from pure respect to their oath keep their faith intact. And, again, in other nations it is a rare thing to find a man who keeps his hands out of the public purse, and is entirely pure in such matters: but among the Romans it is a rare thing to detect a man in the act of committing such a crime.

     

  107. @anon
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Food. There is not a single Sub-Saharan African country that is self-sufficient in food production...

    African self sufficiency in food is not necessary due to food aid from outside. In fact, European and US food aid tends to drive local farmers out of business. This isn't new, it was noticed 30 or 40 years ago. OxFam, Save the Children, CARE and other organizations involved have been wrangling over the issue for decades. There's a lot of foolishness as well as overt corruption in food aid to Africa all along the logistic chain, from the US to the African city.

    But that's a side issue, the fact is food aid to Africa continues, and the African population continues to increase. Therefore it is not necessary for Africa to be self sufficient in food - white people will provide as a form of charity just as we have for the last 70 or so years, if not longer.

    ...let alone the infrastructure to distribute food, medicine, and energy.

    The city of Lagos has an estimated population of about 20,000,000 people. It has a larger population than Cairo, Egypt. Obviously that requires infrastructure to distribute food, medicine and energy. There are multiple other cities in sub-Saharan Africa with populations over 1,000,000. However poor the infrastructure in those cities may be compared to cities in Europe, East Asia or the Anglosphere, it is obviously sufficient to meet the needs of Africans. That is why those cities continue to grow in population.

    Here is a list of urban agglomerations in Africa with estimated population as of 2010. Note how many have a population in excess of 1,000,000.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_Africa


    Or you could explain how a TFR > 4 will somehow not lead to a population increase.
     
    It’s called child mortality,

    Child mortality in Africa has been declining for years. That's why populations of all African countries have been growing for years. The various population projections for Africa through the year 2100 take the historical level of child mortality into account. By the way, what are the actual child mortality estimates for African countries south of the Sahara? I'm sure you have those numbers available right now. Why not post them?

    you dumb motherfucker.

    Which Aristotelian Form are you engaging with these words? Please do explain in detail.

    Pacific cod have a TFR of >10,000 but they are not overrunning the planet. Why? Because 9,999 of them die before reaching reproductive age.

    I'm pretty sure that humans in Africa are smarter than Pacific cod, and receive a lot of medical & food aid from outside of Africa. That might explain why all Africa population continues to grow in a different manner than the population of Pacific cod.

    Perhaps you could try doing a bit of research, and come back with some facts? I have generously provided you with a list of the largest cities in Africa, maybe you could start there.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    The city of Lagos has an estimated population of about 20,000,000 people.

    No. The city of Lagos has an actual population of 8 million according to the UN’s own census. The Nigerian government simply rebuked the UN’s numbers and then inflated the population by a factor of 2.5. This is all right there on the Wikipedia page, if you care to look.

    And if this is going on in Lagos, which is the pinnacle of African civilization (such as it is), what do you think is going on in the rest of the continent? This is one of the points I’m going to talk about in more detail later.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Intelligent Dasein

    The city of Lagos has an actual population of 8 million according to the UN’s own census.

    Citation required. Be attentive to detail. Use the proper Aristotelian Form.

    Lol.

  108. @Intelligent Dasein
    @anon


    The city of Lagos has an estimated population of about 20,000,000 people.
     
    No. The city of Lagos has an actual population of 8 million according to the UN's own census. The Nigerian government simply rebuked the UN's numbers and then inflated the population by a factor of 2.5. This is all right there on the Wikipedia page, if you care to look.

    And if this is going on in Lagos, which is the pinnacle of African civilization (such as it is), what do you think is going on in the rest of the continent? This is one of the points I'm going to talk about in more detail later.

    Replies: @anon

    The city of Lagos has an actual population of 8 million according to the UN’s own census.

    Citation required. Be attentive to detail. Use the proper Aristotelian Form.

    Lol.

  109. @Dissident
    @Talha

    I appreciate this post and would mostly agree but I do wish to challenge one point of yours.


    There may not be empirical proofs for the Divine, but there are many rational proofs. Otherwise one has to conclude men who believed in the Divine, like Newton, Pascal, Leibniz were all irrational people – that’s a hard sell.
     
    Is it not entirely possible, common even, for an otherwise rational man to hold an irrational belief?

    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?

    Replies: @Talha, @iffen, @V. K. Ovelund

    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?

    I assume that you mean other than certain UR commenters that I shall not name.

  110. @Dissident
    @iffen


    I have no doubt that we are alone.
     
    Have you considered, say, how prior to the discovery of radio waves, people might have reacted upon hearing that very concept described to them? Or the concept of an actual radio; that there would one day exist a box containing various wires, tubes and other objects, out of which one would hear the amplified voices and musical performances of people hundreds or even thousands of miles away? Imagine how someone who was completely unfamiliar with any of those concepts would have reacted upon hearing a description of any one them.

    Or, have you considered how you would have reacted if, still many years before the Internet and the smartphone would even be invented, someone were to have described them to you? If someone were to have insisted that if you would live long enough, you would one day witness the reality that you now have: a world in which the Internet and the smartphone are a ubiquitous part of everyday life?

    Or consider the same thought exercise about germs, atoms, molecules, or any other microscopic being or object before its existence had been discovered.

    To be absolutely certain that nothing exists beyond what we, in our limited mortal state, are able to perceive or comprehend? That there is no transcendent, divine being? No spirits of the dead, say, who dwell among us completely unseen and unseeable, unknown and unknowable to us, but who are aware of us? Just how rational is such certainty?

    Replies: @iffen

    I have no doubt that we are alone.

    Just how rational is such certainty?

    You drive a hard bargain. What are you, Jewish? 🙂

    Okay, I accede to the possibility that there is another “dimension” of which we are unaware and perhaps will never be aware. But if such a dimension exists, it will be indifferent, not just to the affairs of humans but to the universe.

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @iffen

    To you and everyone else who replied: Thanks and sorry for the delay in following-up. Feel no pressure to reply further; I know the thread will close soon.


    But if such a dimension exists, it will be indifferent, not just to the affairs of humans but to the universe.
     
    It may seem that way but again, how could we know?

    Do you ever recall memories from the time you were still but a young child, and then consider how different and limited your thinking and entire mindset was then from how it would become-- first, once you came-of-age, then as you advanced through adolescence into adulthood, and then as you grew older and gained wisdom and perspective from your experiences over the years?

    Surely, the difference between our minds and thoughts and the mind and thoughts of any transcendent, divine being would be at least as great as that between an adult and a child.


    You drive a hard bargain. What are you, Jewish?
     
    Hey, I just shamelessly sneaked my own grift into Steve Sailer's latest fundraising drive thread...
    ( :-)

    Replies: @iffen

  111. @Dissident
    @Talha

    I appreciate this post and would mostly agree but I do wish to challenge one point of yours.


    There may not be empirical proofs for the Divine, but there are many rational proofs. Otherwise one has to conclude men who believed in the Divine, like Newton, Pascal, Leibniz were all irrational people – that’s a hard sell.
     
    Is it not entirely possible, common even, for an otherwise rational man to hold an irrational belief?

    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?

    Replies: @Talha, @iffen, @V. K. Ovelund

    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?

    I love this question, though I do not know the answer.

    There appear to exist men who believe that they hold only rational beliefs. In my observation, ironically, those men seem to end up being the most irrational of all.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Beliefs are not rational or irrational. Arguments are rational or irrational. Beliefs can only be confirmed or disconfirmed, by experience.

    No individual has the necessary range of experience to test all beliefs, which is one reason why there will always be a lot of nonsense in the world.

    Replies: @iffen

    , @Dissident
    @V. K. Ovelund


    There appear to exist men who believe that they hold only rational beliefs.
     
    Every man has areas where his judgment is clouded. Vested interests, entrenched biases, psychological needs (to say nothing of visceral physical needs and desires)-- all these encumber clear, logical, rational thought and evaluation. As the old saying goes, it's difficult to convince a man against something that his livelihood (or sense of self-worth, social status, a critical relationship, etc.) is dependent upon his remaining unconvinced of.

    It's also been said that life (as we experience it) is more psychological than logical.


    Beliefs are not rational or irrational. Arguments are rational or irrational. Beliefs can only be confirmed or disconfirmed, by experience.
     
    A belief that a man can fly, or escape death, to take but two obvious examples, would not be accurately described as irrational? If a man believes that he is Napoleon or Julius Ceaser...(or a woman...)

    (LOL @ iffen's reply to ID)

    Replies: @RSDB

  112. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Dissident


    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?
     
    I love this question, though I do not know the answer.

    There appear to exist men who believe that they hold only rational beliefs. In my observation, ironically, those men seem to end up being the most irrational of all.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein, @Dissident

    Beliefs are not rational or irrational. Arguments are rational or irrational. Beliefs can only be confirmed or disconfirmed, by experience.

    No individual has the necessary range of experience to test all beliefs, which is one reason why there will always be a lot of nonsense in the world.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Intelligent Dasein

    No individual has the necessary range of experience to test all beliefs

    Don't sell yourself short, I. D.

  113. @Intelligent Dasein
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Beliefs are not rational or irrational. Arguments are rational or irrational. Beliefs can only be confirmed or disconfirmed, by experience.

    No individual has the necessary range of experience to test all beliefs, which is one reason why there will always be a lot of nonsense in the world.

    Replies: @iffen

    No individual has the necessary range of experience to test all beliefs

    Don’t sell yourself short, I. D.

  114. @Almost Missouri
    @Intelligent Dasein

    I too would like to learn, even at second hand, about ID's debunking of the Afro pop explosion.

    Note though, while it may very well be true that 4 billion Africans won't happen (whether because of e.g. faulty statistics or insufficient food production), that does not mean that Africa cannot be an effectively infinite source of migration to the first world, which is the real hazard that lies beneath everyone's surface concern for "African overpopulation". Whatever the limits to African population growth in Africa, it only takes a few million migrants per year to inundate the first world (a mere rounding error to Africa), and once in the first world, African population constraints no longer pertain while Western pathological altruism suddenly does, to the benefit of the migrants and to the detriment of the Westerners.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    I too would like to learn, even at second hand, about ID’s debunking of the Afro pop explosion.

    I will post it once it’s done. I will try to drop it into a relevant thread but it may end up being an OT essay bomb. Hopefully that won’t cause too much trouble.

    • Replies: @Talha
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Why not submit it as another separate guest article?

    Peace.

    , @V. K. Ovelund
    @Intelligent Dasein



    I too would like to learn, even at second hand, about ID’s debunking of the Afro pop explosion.
     
    I will post it once it’s done. I will try to drop it into a relevant thread but it may end up being an OT essay bomb. Hopefully that won’t cause too much trouble.
     
    I too am interested.

    Your original thought sometimes seems original for mere originality's sake, but the fact is that you dream up all kinds of interesting illiberal ideas that would never have occurred to me. Whether you persuade me or not, I always look forward to the next installment.

    @Talha suggests a guest article, but if you can trim it down and moderately restrain its rhetorical flight, as long as the article is based in research, is there a reason Ron Unz would not publish it on its own under the masthead?

    Replies: @Talha

  115. @Intelligent Dasein
    @Almost Missouri


    I too would like to learn, even at second hand, about ID’s debunking of the Afro pop explosion.
     
    I will post it once it's done. I will try to drop it into a relevant thread but it may end up being an OT essay bomb. Hopefully that won't cause too much trouble.

    Replies: @Talha, @V. K. Ovelund

    Why not submit it as another separate guest article?

    Peace.

  116. @Intelligent Dasein
    @anon


    Name the scarcest resource in Africa that will limit population growth at some point in the future.
     
    Food. There is not a single Sub-Saharan African country that is self-sufficient in food production, let alone the infrastructure to distribute food, medicine, and energy.

    Then explain why it is not in effect yet.
     
    It is.

    Or you could explain how a TFR > 4 will somehow not lead to a population increase.
     
    It's called child mortality, you dumb motherfucker. Pacific cod have a TFR of >10,000 but they are not overrunning the planet. Why? Because 9,999 of them die before reaching reproductive age.

    Innumeracy is just as bad as illiteracy.
     
    You don't say?

    Replies: @anon, @A123, @Mike Tre, @Menes

    I’m reminded of this infamous tirade with your “dumb motherfucker” comment:

  117. “Faith and reason are the shoes on your feet. You can travel further with both than you can with just one.”

    PEACE 😇

  118. @Intelligent Dasein
    @Almost Missouri


    I too would like to learn, even at second hand, about ID’s debunking of the Afro pop explosion.
     
    I will post it once it's done. I will try to drop it into a relevant thread but it may end up being an OT essay bomb. Hopefully that won't cause too much trouble.

    Replies: @Talha, @V. K. Ovelund

    I too would like to learn, even at second hand, about ID’s debunking of the Afro pop explosion.

    I will post it once it’s done. I will try to drop it into a relevant thread but it may end up being an OT essay bomb. Hopefully that won’t cause too much trouble.

    I too am interested.

    Your original thought sometimes seems original for mere originality’s sake, but the fact is that you dream up all kinds of interesting illiberal ideas that would never have occurred to me. Whether you persuade me or not, I always look forward to the next installment.

    suggests a guest article, but if you can trim it down and moderately restrain its rhetorical flight, as long as the article is based in research, is there a reason Ron Unz would not publish it on its own under the masthead?

    • Replies: @Talha
    @V. K. Ovelund

    ID has had an article published before, I don’t see why a well researched contrarian article would be rejected. It would certainly spur on more discussion/debate on the topic in the comments area.

    Peace.

  119. @Talha
    @Dissident


    Is it not entirely possible, common even, for an otherwise rational man to hold an irrational belief?
     
    Well, I do have to admit you've got a point there...I mean people who believed in the Roman pantheon nevertheless built the formidable Roman Republic then Empire.

    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?
     
    Likely not.

    Peace.

    Replies: @RSDB

    Well, I do have to admit you’ve got a point there…I mean people who believed in the Roman pantheon nevertheless built the formidable Roman Republic then Empire.

    Polybius thought it may have helped:

    Wherefore, to my mind, the ancients were not acting without purpose or at random, when they brought in among the vulgar those opinions about the gods, and the belief in the punishments in Hades: much rather do I think that men nowadays are acting rashly and foolishly in rejecting them. This is the reason why, apart from anything else, Greek statesmen, if entrusted with a single talent, though protected by ten checking-clerks, as many seals, and twice as many witnesses, yet cannot be induced to keep faith: whereas among the Romans, in their magistracies and embassies, men have the handling of a great amount of money, and yet from pure respect to their oath keep their faith intact. And, again, in other nations it is a rare thing to find a man who keeps his hands out of the public purse, and is entirely pure in such matters: but among the Romans it is a rare thing to detect a man in the act of committing such a crime.

  120. @Intelligent Dasein
    @anon


    Name the scarcest resource in Africa that will limit population growth at some point in the future.
     
    Food. There is not a single Sub-Saharan African country that is self-sufficient in food production, let alone the infrastructure to distribute food, medicine, and energy.

    Then explain why it is not in effect yet.
     
    It is.

    Or you could explain how a TFR > 4 will somehow not lead to a population increase.
     
    It's called child mortality, you dumb motherfucker. Pacific cod have a TFR of >10,000 but they are not overrunning the planet. Why? Because 9,999 of them die before reaching reproductive age.

    Innumeracy is just as bad as illiteracy.
     
    You don't say?

    Replies: @anon, @A123, @Mike Tre, @Menes

    There is not a single Sub-Saharan African country that is self-sufficient in food production

    Ignorant bullcrap. Educate yourself:

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/africa-in-focus/2020/12/14/unpacking-the-misconceptions-about-africas-food-imports/

    Sub-Saharan Africa’s spiraling food import bill—which stood at $43 billion in 2019—has attracted mounting attention as a worrisome trend. For years, many pundits have wondered why Africa seems increasingly unable to feed itself, despite having much of the world’s remaining unutilized arable land.

    This alarming narrative is largely inaccurate. Our research, which disaggregates sub-Saharan Africa’s (SSA) agricultural trade performance by country and type, shows that four countries—Nigeria, Angola, the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), and Somalia—account for most of SSA’s net agricultural import position. The rest of the countries in the region are actually net agricultural exporters.

    Sub-Saharan Africa’s food imports are not rising. While the value of SSA food imports rose rapidly during 2005-2011, the annual value of those imports has actually declined slightly and then leveled off since 2011, as shown in Figure 1. While the African Development Bank projected that Africa’s food imports would reach $90 billion by 2030, these projections were based on trends during 2000-2010—a period when global food prices rose rapidly—and do not reflect the more recent 2011-2019 period during which the value of SSA’s food imports has been relatively flat. The fact that—even with rapidly growing demand for food driven by population growth and rising per capita incomes—the value of SSA food imports has not continued to rise over the past decade can be explained by the region’s success in expanding food production.

    In fact, SSA has recorded the highest rate of agricultural production growth of any region of the world since 2000.

  121. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Intelligent Dasein



    I too would like to learn, even at second hand, about ID’s debunking of the Afro pop explosion.
     
    I will post it once it’s done. I will try to drop it into a relevant thread but it may end up being an OT essay bomb. Hopefully that won’t cause too much trouble.
     
    I too am interested.

    Your original thought sometimes seems original for mere originality's sake, but the fact is that you dream up all kinds of interesting illiberal ideas that would never have occurred to me. Whether you persuade me or not, I always look forward to the next installment.

    @Talha suggests a guest article, but if you can trim it down and moderately restrain its rhetorical flight, as long as the article is based in research, is there a reason Ron Unz would not publish it on its own under the masthead?

    Replies: @Talha

    ID has had an article published before, I don’t see why a well researched contrarian article would be rejected. It would certainly spur on more discussion/debate on the topic in the comments area.

    Peace.

  122. @advancedatheist
    I find it interesting that a century ago the Bolsheviks took it for granted that their grand experiment would create superhumans. Leon Trotsky in his book Literature and Revolution (1924) famously speculates what a functional communist civilization would do to the human species:

    More than that. Man at last will begin to harmonize himself in earnest. He will make it his business to achieve beauty by giving the movement of his own limbs the utmost precision, purposefulness and economy in his work, his walk and his play. He will try to master first the semiconscious and then the subconscious processes in his own organism, such as breathing, the circulation of the blood, digestion, reproduction, and, within necessary limits, he will try to subordinate them to the control of reason and will. Even purely physiologic life will become subject to collective experiments. The human species, the coagulated Homo sapiens, will once more enter into a state of radical transformation, and, in his own hands, will become an object of the most complicated methods of artificial selection and psycho-physical training. This is entirely in accord with evolution. Man first drove the dark elements out of industry and ideology, by displacing barbarian routine by scientific technique, and religion by science. Afterwards he drove the unconscious out of politics, by overthrowing monarchy and class with democracy and rationalist parliamentarianism and then with the clear and open Soviet dictatorship. The blind elements have settled most heavily in economic relations, but man is driving them out from there also, by means of the Socialist organization of economic life. This makes it possible to reconstruct fundamentally the traditional family life. Finally, the nature of man himself is hidden in the deepest and darkest corner of the unconscious, of the elemental, of the sub-soil. Is it not self-evident that the greatest efforts of investigative thought and of creative initiative will be in that direction? The human race will not have ceased to crawl on all fours before God, kings and capital, in order later to submit humbly before the dark laws of heredity and a blind sexual selection! Emancipated man will want to attain a greater equilibrium in the work of his organs and a more proportional developing and wearing out of his tissues, in order to reduce the fear of death to a rational reaction of the organism towards danger. There can be no doubt that man’s extreme anatomical and physiological disharmony, that is, the extreme disproportion in the growth and wearing out of organs and tissues, give the life instinct the form of a pinched, morbid and hysterical fear of death, which darkens reason and which feeds the stupid and humiliating fantasies about life after death.

    Man will make it his purpose to master his own feelings, to raise his instincts to the heights of consciousness, to make them transparent, to extend the wires of his will into hidden recesses, and thereby to raise himself to a new plane, to create a higher social biologic type, or, if you please, a superman.

    It is difficult to predict the extent of self-government which the man of the future may reach or the heights to which he may carry his technique. Social construction and psycho-physical self-education will become two aspects of one and the same process. All the arts – literature, drama, painting, music and architecture will lend this process beautiful form. More correctly, the shell in which the cultural construction and self-education of Communist man will be enclosed, will develop all the vital elements of contemporary art to the highest point. Man will become immeasurably stronger, wiser and subtler; his body will become more harmonized, his movements more rhythmic, his voice more musical. The forms of life will become dynamically dramatic. The average human type will rise to the heights of an Aristotle, a Goethe, or a Marx. And above this ridge new peaks will rise.
     
    Contrast that with the current leftists' romanticism which celebrates the stupid, the ugly, the defective and the broken.

    Replies: @goldgettin, @Realist, @Audacious Epigone

    Indeed, the idealized Soviet Man looks nothing like the average CHAZ resident.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Audacious Epigone

    The New Soviet Man quickly became the NEPman, who evolved after the suppression of the NEP into Homo Sovieticus; not an encouraging trajectory on the whole.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhXuj_gBXAA

  123. @Twinkie
    @Anatoly Karlin


    Perhaps surprisingly, given existing tropes, but Chinese numbers are similar to American ones
     
    And more South Koreans say that using genetic engineering to make babies more intelligent is misuse of technology than the highly Catholic Polish people.

    Contrary to the said tropes, East Asians seem to only support genetic research for better medical care, not for making super babies, let alone altering human nature. The only odd man out seems to be India (though Malaysia is surprisingly close).

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    If gene editing for various traits becomes viable and widely accessible, though, do you really think people won’t incorporate intelligence into the process? They’ll pay $50k/year to get their kids into the top preschools, after all!

  124. @songbird
    If I recall, private tutors were once illegal in South Korea because it was felt that they gave the wealthy an unfair advantage.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Gene editing could potentially be the equivalent of giving everyone a private tutor, though.

  125. @Sean
    @Leander Starr

    The collapse of the Soviet Union was partly as a result of Gorbachev going on a trip to China where masses of democracy protesters humiliated the Chinese leadership that were planning a USSR China rapprochement sumit, by coming to the Russian Embassy and appealing to him. Days later–after Gorby had left China– came the Tiananmen Square massacre. As he told associates, Gorbachev thought anything better that to have a Tiananmen in Red Square, so he did not crush dissent in the way he saw happen in 1989 China. Having abjured the use of force, Gorbachev was unable to control the centrifugal manifestations of the reform process he had set in motion.

    Reagan initiated Star Wars while he cut off the flow of US technology to the USSR; all they got was grain. Obama gave China fracking technology, and Biden has repeatedly of late that China is not any real competition for the US. H. R. McMaster said on the last day of the Trump state visit to China, Premier Li Keqiang, a trained economist, lectured the Americans that “China, having already developed its industrial and technological base, no longer needed the United States. … the U.S. role in the future global economy would merely be to provide China with raw materials, agricultural products, and energy to fuel its production”. It goes without saying that is the opposite of what the Chinese are planning.

    Although much too cunning to ever say, China's intention is using their unbeatable economies of scale and work discipline to out compete America in commercial laissez faire. But termite-like efficiency is not enough, they need to stay abreast of cutting edge technology. For innovation, a society requires ‘autonomy, diversity, failure tolerance and the recombination of knowledge’ .


    Having covered adaptive landscapes in biology, he asks if this metaphor can have wider use. It can in chemistry, where there are many possible solutions to the problem of arranging atoms or molecules into larger structures. And in computing, such as delivery companies finding the optimal route for their fleet of vehicles. But Wagner even sees parallels in how artists, writers, or composers work, comparing what they do to a form of creative problem-solving in a mental landscape. Here too, finding better solutions sometimes requires big leaps, which can be brought about by play, daydreaming, or other means.
     
    Biden is right that America has this partly because of its culture and immigration. But it also is dependant on DNA of the traditional ethnic majority of the US. While high, Chinese intelligence was selected for through the Imperial examination system, which rewarded Eight-legged essay type thinking. But China can get access to the fruits of such a society without the political inconvenience of allowing those un-Confucian freedoms.

    China is going to offshore its R&D to America and just shake down US corporations who want in on the burgeoning home market of China. he domination of Wall Street finance will go the way of Britain’s supremacy. China is going to be the centre of the world economy and the idea that Wall Street will retain its status as wealth allocation and asset pricing hub after that happens is dubious. New York will be like the City of London is now: home to ‘family office’ wealth management for billionaires’ private fortunes. Shanghai and Shenzhen will be where the action will be.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    This is a really interesting perspective, thanks. What happens to the US dollar as this plays out?

  126. @John Johnson
    @Realist

    True, but the religious rightists are against genetic engineering for equally stupid reasons.

    They don't have any serious influence into such areas and are ruthlessly mocked and denigrated by the media. The religious right has pretty much retreated and is used more as a routine punching bag for the liberal establishment.

    Meanwhile the same liberal media tells the public that race doesn't exist because science says so and White people are simply to blame for all inequality. Anyone who questions this narrative in public is treated like a mass murderer.

    The left is terrified of genetic engineering because they are afraid of what the public will learn, not what will become. They have most Whites convinced that race is only superficial and blank slate is for the most part true. Genetic engineering research could easily undermine their work.

    Replies: @Realist, @Audacious Epigone

    It could undermine their work, but it could also up new possibilities they’ll find irresistible. Genetic engineering does hold the promise of greater egalitarianism, but it requires admitting human biodiversity is a real thing first.

  127. @TG
    If human gene editing becomes a practical reality, the goal will NOT be to unlock the potential of the average person. The goal will be to turn the average person into a domestic animal, docile and hard working. This has been the great goal of the rich ever since civilization started, and they have ever been frustrated. No matter how much they step on little people. and seem to be keeping the lid on, the little people keep rebelling or at least causing enough friction that they are a bother to keep in line. Gene editing people will solve that problem once and for all. Who will need slavery, when our descendants (not the elites of course) will be born and bred to that status naturally?

    Be afraid. Be very afraid.

    Replies: @Talha, @Audacious Epigone

    If they’re able to make Sisyphus enjoy pushing the boulder, though, is it really that bad?

  128. @RSDB
    @Almost Missouri

    I'm not offering this as an explanation, because I don't know enough, but the word eugenics may not mean the same thing to different people, nor, more importantly, have the same connotations.

    The objective of genetic counseling is, generally, to avoid certain defects; most people in the West would not use the word "eugenics" to refer to that, perhaps because of the very unpleasant associations the word has in our cultural context, while, say, UR columnist Steve Sailer would.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    The GSS asks respondents whether or not they would abort a fetus with a “serious genetic defect”. A majority respond that they would. If that is not the literal definition of eugenics, I don’t know what is.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Audacious Epigone


    The GSS asks respondents whether or not they would abort a fetus with a “serious genetic defect”. A majority respond that they would. If that is not the literal definition of eugenics, I don’t know what is.
     
    To play Devil's Advocate....

    What is the chance of childbearing for that “serious genetic defect” child? If the chance is 0%, then from strict Eugenics standpoint "Propagation Rate is Equal" for both cases.

    PEACE 😇
  129. @Talha
    @iffen


    Then, I wonder what would be the methods that they would use to detect my existence and locate me.
     
    Without giving too much away, in the end the criminal in Gattacca is finally discovered [partial spoiler alert]...

    Peace.

    ...when they pick up his eyelash and run a genetic match on it. I'm guessing soon they will be able to accurately pick up anyone by a drone simply touching down and whisking away the saliva from the spit or bubblegum they just left on the sidewalk. If the computing power gets good enough, the drone may be able to perform the analysis on the spot without a need to deliver it to a lab.

    Can this vision of the future be stopped? Possibly, but each succeeding generation has an easier time giving up freedoms while also thinking they are freer than the previous generations. I could only shake my head as my daughter was so excited by the fact that her newest cell phone can be conveniently opened with her fingerprint. But I had to also realize that there is nothing stopping my phone from having a record of my fingerprint as well, the only difference being her active participation and my unwitting one.

    If Neil Postman's analysis in Technopoly is right; we cannot stop it, it is inevitable in any society that advances past the stage from a tool-using culture. Technology then seeks the means to define the culture with itself as the ascendant on the totem pole of hierarchies and priorities. Resistance is futile.

    Replies: @iffen, @Justvisiting, @Audacious Epigone

    But I had to also realize that there is nothing stopping my phone from having a record of my fingerprint as well, the only difference being her active participation and my unwitting one.

    They’d prefer it be consensual because that is easier. But if they have to rape you, they will. Either way, they’re going to have their way with you.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone



    But I had to also realize that there is nothing stopping my phone from having a record of my fingerprint as well, the only difference being her active participation and my unwitting one.
     
    They’d prefer it be consensual because that is easier. But if they have to rape you, they will. Either way, they’re going to have their way with you.
     
    There is not going to be any need for rape. 99% of people under 40 will not only consent willingly, they'll do so enthusiastically.
    , @A123
    @Audacious Epigone



    there is nothing stopping my phone from having a record of my fingerprint
     
    They’d prefer it be consensual because that is easier.
     
    Did you read the Consent Agreement that came with your TV? This is the future of the human race:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMzMg2vzhhU

    PEACE 😇
  130. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    Indians seem to have a problem with Covid-19 distancing ...

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1338364345781268480

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Help me interpret what is going on there. I’m sure I’m not the only one who is bemused (and mildly amused).

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Audacious Epigone

    They're too crowded & unable to follow distancing rules of Covid-19. So, uniforms (female, male) are beating them with hands & sticks to punish them for disobedience (never mind they couldn't follow the distancing rules- it was technically impossible).

    Welcome to India.

  131. @Audacious Epigone
    @Talha

    But I had to also realize that there is nothing stopping my phone from having a record of my fingerprint as well, the only difference being her active participation and my unwitting one.

    They'd prefer it be consensual because that is easier. But if they have to rape you, they will. Either way, they're going to have their way with you.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @A123

    But I had to also realize that there is nothing stopping my phone from having a record of my fingerprint as well, the only difference being her active participation and my unwitting one.

    They’d prefer it be consensual because that is easier. But if they have to rape you, they will. Either way, they’re going to have their way with you.

    There is not going to be any need for rape. 99% of people under 40 will not only consent willingly, they’ll do so enthusiastically.

  132. @Audacious Epigone
    @advancedatheist

    Indeed, the idealized Soviet Man looks nothing like the average CHAZ resident.

    Replies: @RSDB

    The New Soviet Man quickly became the NEPman, who evolved after the suppression of the NEP into Homo Sovieticus; not an encouraging trajectory on the whole.

    [MORE]

  133. @iffen
    @Dissident


    I have no doubt that we are alone.

    Just how rational is such certainty?
     

    You drive a hard bargain. What are you, Jewish? :)

    Okay, I accede to the possibility that there is another "dimension" of which we are unaware and perhaps will never be aware. But if such a dimension exists, it will be indifferent, not just to the affairs of humans but to the universe.

    Replies: @Dissident

    To you and everyone else who replied: Thanks and sorry for the delay in following-up. Feel no pressure to reply further; I know the thread will close soon.

    But if such a dimension exists, it will be indifferent, not just to the affairs of humans but to the universe.

    It may seem that way but again, how could we know?

    Do you ever recall memories from the time you were still but a young child, and then consider how different and limited your thinking and entire mindset was then from how it would become– first, once you came-of-age, then as you advanced through adolescence into adulthood, and then as you grew older and gained wisdom and perspective from your experiences over the years?

    Surely, the difference between our minds and thoughts and the mind and thoughts of any transcendent, divine being would be at least as great as that between an adult and a child.

    You drive a hard bargain. What are you, Jewish?

    Hey, I just shamelessly sneaked my own grift into Steve Sailer’s latest fundraising drive thread…
    ( 🙂

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Dissident

    It may seem that way but again, how could we know?

    I already said that I couldn't know for certain, just that I think that it is highly improbable, and as such I don't really think about it that much.

    While we are on the subject, and since you seem to be saying that we can't know "for sure," how do you know that some devil didn't create this world of suffering for its own amusement?

  134. @Dissident
    @iffen

    To you and everyone else who replied: Thanks and sorry for the delay in following-up. Feel no pressure to reply further; I know the thread will close soon.


    But if such a dimension exists, it will be indifferent, not just to the affairs of humans but to the universe.
     
    It may seem that way but again, how could we know?

    Do you ever recall memories from the time you were still but a young child, and then consider how different and limited your thinking and entire mindset was then from how it would become-- first, once you came-of-age, then as you advanced through adolescence into adulthood, and then as you grew older and gained wisdom and perspective from your experiences over the years?

    Surely, the difference between our minds and thoughts and the mind and thoughts of any transcendent, divine being would be at least as great as that between an adult and a child.


    You drive a hard bargain. What are you, Jewish?
     
    Hey, I just shamelessly sneaked my own grift into Steve Sailer's latest fundraising drive thread...
    ( :-)

    Replies: @iffen

    It may seem that way but again, how could we know?

    I already said that I couldn’t know for certain, just that I think that it is highly improbable, and as such I don’t really think about it that much.

    While we are on the subject, and since you seem to be saying that we can’t know “for sure,” how do you know that some devil didn’t create this world of suffering for its own amusement?

  135. @Audacious Epigone
    @RSDB

    The GSS asks respondents whether or not they would abort a fetus with a "serious genetic defect". A majority respond that they would. If that is not the literal definition of eugenics, I don't know what is.

    Replies: @A123

    The GSS asks respondents whether or not they would abort a fetus with a “serious genetic defect”. A majority respond that they would. If that is not the literal definition of eugenics, I don’t know what is.

    To play Devil’s Advocate….

    What is the chance of childbearing for that “serious genetic defect” child? If the chance is 0%, then from strict Eugenics standpoint “Propagation Rate is Equal” for both cases.

    PEACE 😇

  136. @Audacious Epigone
    @Talha

    But I had to also realize that there is nothing stopping my phone from having a record of my fingerprint as well, the only difference being her active participation and my unwitting one.

    They'd prefer it be consensual because that is easier. But if they have to rape you, they will. Either way, they're going to have their way with you.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @A123

    there is nothing stopping my phone from having a record of my fingerprint

    They’d prefer it be consensual because that is easier.

    Did you read the Consent Agreement that came with your TV? This is the future of the human race:

    PEACE 😇

  137. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Dissident


    Is there a man who holds only rational beliefs?
     
    I love this question, though I do not know the answer.

    There appear to exist men who believe that they hold only rational beliefs. In my observation, ironically, those men seem to end up being the most irrational of all.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein, @Dissident

    There appear to exist men who believe that they hold only rational beliefs.

    Every man has areas where his judgment is clouded. Vested interests, entrenched biases, psychological needs (to say nothing of visceral physical needs and desires)– all these encumber clear, logical, rational thought and evaluation. As the old saying goes, it’s difficult to convince a man against something that his livelihood (or sense of self-worth, social status, a critical relationship, etc.) is dependent upon his remaining unconvinced of.

    It’s also been said that life (as we experience it) is more psychological than logical.

    Beliefs are not rational or irrational. Arguments are rational or irrational. Beliefs can only be confirmed or disconfirmed, by experience.

    A belief that a man can fly, or escape death, to take but two obvious examples, would not be accurately described as irrational? If a man believes that he is Napoleon or Julius Ceaser…(or a woman…)

    (LOL @ iffen’s reply to ID)

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Dissident


    A belief that a man can fly, or escape death, to take but two obvious examples, would not be accurately described as irrational? If a man believes that he is Napoleon or Julius Ceaser…(or a woman…)

     

    No, the beliefs themselves are not irrational in and of themselves, but, if they are called irrational, as, to be fair, in ordinary English, they probably can be, they are so by virtue of the process of thought behind them, or by virtue of the fact that they are held despite contrary evidence.

    In other words we can probably refer to a belief justified (or at least unchallenged) by rational reasoning as a rational belief for all practical purposes, but we can also distinguish that when we do this we are predicating the word "rational" of beliefs and arguments in two different ways.

    Your examples are a little funny; most men can fly nowadays, most Christians believe they can escape Death (or rather that Death has been vanquished), and the belief that one is Napoleon is quite rational (you see I use this shorthand myself) in at least one case.
  138. @iffen
    @Polemos

    Thanks, you have packed quite a bit into that comment. Some of it might be above my pay grade so I will have to think about what you have written.

    One of the reasons that I think AI might not develop sans human characteristics, except problem solving, is my observation of the hyper-woke charges of racism in algorithms and AI. And then there is the V’ger problem.

    then what are we that we’re the sort of thing that has conversations with one another about being the only sorts of things in this vast unending Space all around us capable of subjectivity?

    Pulled from one of the cubby holes in my mind: star stuff contemplating itself.

    I don’t believe that this can be improved upon:


    “We have begun to contemplate our origins: starstuff pondering the stars; organized assemblages of ten billion billion billion atoms considering the evolution of atoms; tracing the long journey by which, here at least, consciousness arose.”
    ― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
     
    Have you ever read Peter Watts’ science fiction novels?

    I don’t read fiction anymore because in another cubby hole is: fact is stranger than fiction.

    “Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't.”
    ― Mark Twain, Following the Equator: A Journey Around the World
     
    but reproduce either the aggrandized version of their own egos or the divergence of an autistic or an evacuated empathy — a spiritualization of ego, making it something that can go trans.

    Haven’t we been up to something like this for several hundred thousand years?

    Replies: @anon, @Dissident

    I don’t read fiction anymore because in another cubby hole is: fact is stranger than fiction.

    “Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn’t.”
    ― Mark Twain, Following the Equator: A Journey Around the World

    The trick is being able to figure-out how much of what is presented, accepted or perceived as truth and, certainly, history, is really fiction; and vice-versa. Not easy, or even always possible.

    Both consuming as well as composing fiction can provide an enticing, even intoxicating escape from the limitations and tribulations of reality. In fantasy, the only limitations are those of the imagination. ( This is a critical difference between radio and television/film/ even physical theater. The latter, visual mediums, are constrained to a very large degree not only by physical limitations but also, the viewer is constrained by having imposed upon him the specific visual imagery of the author’s imagination and the performer’s presentation.)

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Dissident

    Both consuming as well as composing fiction can provide an enticing, even intoxicating escape from the limitations and tribulations of reality. In fantasy, the only limitations are those of the imagination.

    Ahh, but retconning history is the biggest thrill of all. Do you deny such retconning has occurred in the past, is occurring now and will occur in the future?

    the viewer is constrained by having imposed upon him the specific visual imagery of the author’s imagination and the performer’s presentation.)

    Eye of the beholder and all that. You can't "make" me see what you want me to see. Or do you not wish to apply your prejudice against "certainty" in this case?

    Replies: @Dissident, @V. K. Ovelund

  139. @Dissident
    @iffen


    I don’t read fiction anymore because in another cubby hole is: fact is stranger than fiction.

    “Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn’t.”
    ― Mark Twain, Following the Equator: A Journey Around the World
     

     
    The trick is being able to figure-out how much of what is presented, accepted or perceived as truth and, certainly, history, is really fiction; and vice-versa. Not easy, or even always possible.

    Both consuming as well as composing fiction can provide an enticing, even intoxicating escape from the limitations and tribulations of reality. In fantasy, the only limitations are those of the imagination. ( This is a critical difference between radio and television/film/ even physical theater. The latter, visual mediums, are constrained to a very large degree not only by physical limitations but also, the viewer is constrained by having imposed upon him the specific visual imagery of the author's imagination and the performer's presentation.)

    Replies: @iffen

    Both consuming as well as composing fiction can provide an enticing, even intoxicating escape from the limitations and tribulations of reality. In fantasy, the only limitations are those of the imagination.

    Ahh, but retconning history is the biggest thrill of all. Do you deny such retconning has occurred in the past, is occurring now and will occur in the future?

    the viewer is constrained by having imposed upon him the specific visual imagery of the author’s imagination and the performer’s presentation.)

    Eye of the beholder and all that. You can’t “make” me see what you want me to see. Or do you not wish to apply your prejudice against “certainty” in this case?

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @iffen


    Do you deny such retconning has occurred in the past, is occurring now and will occur in the future?
     
    I would have thought this was obviously and very much included in what I wrote about the challenge of separating fact from fiction in much of what is perceived/presented as history, but perhaps I have misunderstood you.

    You can’t “make” me see what you want me to see.

     

    Obviously, any sight (just as any sound, taste, smell, feel, etc.) will be perceived at least somewhat differently by different people. Nonetheless, when one views a play or film, one inevitably sees, at least on the most basic level, the actors, costumes, props, backgrounds, and other visual effects that were chosen by those who produced and presented the performance. When merely hears a performance or presentation being voiced, the visual images are created entirely within the mind of the listener (obviously, under influence of the specific sounds that are pre-chosen for him). When one merely reads the written word, even the voices and other sounds are furnished within the imagination of the listener.

    Ahh, but retconning history is the biggest thrill of all.
     
    What I have begun doing is to take actual memories of mine and base fiction on fantasies crafted from them.

    Replies: @iffen

    , @V. K. Ovelund
    @iffen


    Ahh, but retconning history is the biggest thrill of all. Do you deny such retconning has occurred in the past, is occurring now and will occur in the future?
     
    Disturbing.

    You know that something has gone wrong when you trust some pseudonymous fellow online, calling himself @iffen, more than you trust a newspaper or a history book.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  140. @Dissident
    @V. K. Ovelund


    There appear to exist men who believe that they hold only rational beliefs.
     
    Every man has areas where his judgment is clouded. Vested interests, entrenched biases, psychological needs (to say nothing of visceral physical needs and desires)-- all these encumber clear, logical, rational thought and evaluation. As the old saying goes, it's difficult to convince a man against something that his livelihood (or sense of self-worth, social status, a critical relationship, etc.) is dependent upon his remaining unconvinced of.

    It's also been said that life (as we experience it) is more psychological than logical.


    Beliefs are not rational or irrational. Arguments are rational or irrational. Beliefs can only be confirmed or disconfirmed, by experience.
     
    A belief that a man can fly, or escape death, to take but two obvious examples, would not be accurately described as irrational? If a man believes that he is Napoleon or Julius Ceaser...(or a woman...)

    (LOL @ iffen's reply to ID)

    Replies: @RSDB

    A belief that a man can fly, or escape death, to take but two obvious examples, would not be accurately described as irrational? If a man believes that he is Napoleon or Julius Ceaser…(or a woman…)

    No, the beliefs themselves are not irrational in and of themselves, but, if they are called irrational, as, to be fair, in ordinary English, they probably can be, they are so by virtue of the process of thought behind them, or by virtue of the fact that they are held despite contrary evidence.

    In other words we can probably refer to a belief justified (or at least unchallenged) by rational reasoning as a rational belief for all practical purposes, but we can also distinguish that when we do this we are predicating the word “rational” of beliefs and arguments in two different ways.

    Your examples are a little funny; most men can fly nowadays, most Christians believe they can escape Death (or rather that Death has been vanquished), and the belief that one is Napoleon is quite rational (you see I use this shorthand myself) in at least one case.

  141. @iffen
    @Dissident

    Both consuming as well as composing fiction can provide an enticing, even intoxicating escape from the limitations and tribulations of reality. In fantasy, the only limitations are those of the imagination.

    Ahh, but retconning history is the biggest thrill of all. Do you deny such retconning has occurred in the past, is occurring now and will occur in the future?

    the viewer is constrained by having imposed upon him the specific visual imagery of the author’s imagination and the performer’s presentation.)

    Eye of the beholder and all that. You can't "make" me see what you want me to see. Or do you not wish to apply your prejudice against "certainty" in this case?

    Replies: @Dissident, @V. K. Ovelund

    Do you deny such retconning has occurred in the past, is occurring now and will occur in the future?

    I would have thought this was obviously and very much included in what I wrote about the challenge of separating fact from fiction in much of what is perceived/presented as history, but perhaps I have misunderstood you.

    You can’t “make” me see what you want me to see.

    Obviously, any sight (just as any sound, taste, smell, feel, etc.) will be perceived at least somewhat differently by different people. Nonetheless, when one views a play or film, one inevitably sees, at least on the most basic level, the actors, costumes, props, backgrounds, and other visual effects that were chosen by those who produced and presented the performance. When merely hears a performance or presentation being voiced, the visual images are created entirely within the mind of the listener (obviously, under influence of the specific sounds that are pre-chosen for him). When one merely reads the written word, even the voices and other sounds are furnished within the imagination of the listener.

    Ahh, but retconning history is the biggest thrill of all.

    What I have begun doing is to take actual memories of mine and base fiction on fantasies crafted from them.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Dissident

    I would have thought this was obviously and very much included in what I wrote about the challenge of separating fact from fiction in much of what is perceived/presented as history,

    My bad, I missed that. Perhaps you went above my paygrade.

  142. @Dissident
    @iffen


    Do you deny such retconning has occurred in the past, is occurring now and will occur in the future?
     
    I would have thought this was obviously and very much included in what I wrote about the challenge of separating fact from fiction in much of what is perceived/presented as history, but perhaps I have misunderstood you.

    You can’t “make” me see what you want me to see.

     

    Obviously, any sight (just as any sound, taste, smell, feel, etc.) will be perceived at least somewhat differently by different people. Nonetheless, when one views a play or film, one inevitably sees, at least on the most basic level, the actors, costumes, props, backgrounds, and other visual effects that were chosen by those who produced and presented the performance. When merely hears a performance or presentation being voiced, the visual images are created entirely within the mind of the listener (obviously, under influence of the specific sounds that are pre-chosen for him). When one merely reads the written word, even the voices and other sounds are furnished within the imagination of the listener.

    Ahh, but retconning history is the biggest thrill of all.
     
    What I have begun doing is to take actual memories of mine and base fiction on fantasies crafted from them.

    Replies: @iffen

    I would have thought this was obviously and very much included in what I wrote about the challenge of separating fact from fiction in much of what is perceived/presented as history,

    My bad, I missed that. Perhaps you went above my paygrade.

  143. @iffen
    @Dissident

    Both consuming as well as composing fiction can provide an enticing, even intoxicating escape from the limitations and tribulations of reality. In fantasy, the only limitations are those of the imagination.

    Ahh, but retconning history is the biggest thrill of all. Do you deny such retconning has occurred in the past, is occurring now and will occur in the future?

    the viewer is constrained by having imposed upon him the specific visual imagery of the author’s imagination and the performer’s presentation.)

    Eye of the beholder and all that. You can't "make" me see what you want me to see. Or do you not wish to apply your prejudice against "certainty" in this case?

    Replies: @Dissident, @V. K. Ovelund

    Ahh, but retconning history is the biggest thrill of all. Do you deny such retconning has occurred in the past, is occurring now and will occur in the future?

    Disturbing.

    You know that something has gone wrong when you trust some pseudonymous fellow online, calling himself , more than you trust a newspaper or a history book.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @V. K. Ovelund


    You know that something has gone wrong when you trust some pseudonymous fellow online, calling himself @iffen, more than you trust a newspaper or a history book.
     
    That's what makes it so easy to end up going down the paranoia/conspiracy theory rabbit hole. Once you decide that journalists and historians are all liars you start believing anything you find on the internet that appeals to you on an emotional level. You end up believing anything. That's one of the reasons the dissident right has become so deranged.
  144. @Audacious Epigone
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Help me interpret what is going on there. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is bemused (and mildly amused).

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    They’re too crowded & unable to follow distancing rules of Covid-19. So, uniforms (female, male) are beating them with hands & sticks to punish them for disobedience (never mind they couldn’t follow the distancing rules- it was technically impossible).

    Welcome to India.

  145. @V. K. Ovelund
    @iffen


    Ahh, but retconning history is the biggest thrill of all. Do you deny such retconning has occurred in the past, is occurring now and will occur in the future?
     
    Disturbing.

    You know that something has gone wrong when you trust some pseudonymous fellow online, calling himself @iffen, more than you trust a newspaper or a history book.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    You know that something has gone wrong when you trust some pseudonymous fellow online, calling himself , more than you trust a newspaper or a history book.

    That’s what makes it so easy to end up going down the paranoia/conspiracy theory rabbit hole. Once you decide that journalists and historians are all liars you start believing anything you find on the internet that appeals to you on an emotional level. You end up believing anything. That’s one of the reasons the dissident right has become so deranged.

    • Agree: Dissident

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