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Black Rednecks and White Liberals part XXVIII:

It’s time to declare victory and come home. As is the case with flu shots, allow people to decide whether or not they want to take the jab each year or every few months or whatever the recommended schedule is. The Biden administration gets a win, Big Pharma secures another perpetual income stream, people who want peace of mind get it, and people who don’t want the shot are allowed to retain their bodily integrity.

If entities discriminate against clients or customers based on Covid vaccination status, the resulting disparate impact is going to create some very *ahem* problematic optics. A Wal-Mart greeter turns a young black woman away at the door just after waving an elderly white man through. In the cellphone video of the occurrence that goes viral an hour later, the aggrieved young black woman has creatively claimed Monty Burns entering ahead of her hasn’t been vaccinated either. Uh oh. The Narrative has a problem on its hands.

Then again, those of us who think freedom of association is a fundamental principle upon which this country is founded may be advised to take our victories where we can get them. If the unvaccinated need not be waited on then the cake doesn’t need to be baked, either.

 
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  1. Not sure I follow this; you’re saying we’re going to be able to enforce doctrinal consistency all of a sudden?

  2. The authorities so far refuse to acknowledge the natural immunity of persons like me and my family who have contracted, and recovered from, actual COVID, confirmed by a live test.

    The politics of this is disturbing.

  3. If the unvaccinated need not be waited on then the cake doesn’t need to be baked, either.

    That sounds logical, but allow me to introduce the American legal concept of “protected class“. This bit of legal sophistry really does mean that some animals are more equal than others. Unvaccinated bodily integrity is not a protected class, but anal fetishism is. So while you don’t need to wait on the unvaccinated, the gay cake still must be baked.

    (The unvaccinated black girl can still be legally turned away from Walmart, but, as you suggest, she can depend on “optics” and media amplification to get her way without resort to the law.)

    ——

    As a public service to those of us who still cherish the memory of the America of freedom and opportunity, I note that for purposes of employment and education, there are still legal avenues for the vaxx-averse. AFAIK, these largely depend on the fact that the “vaccine” isn’t really a vaccine, but a phase-3 experimental emergency “gene therapy” (itself a euphemism for “random genetic alterations injected into you in the hope of a good outcome”). So once Big Pharma and their co-conspirators get their experimental “gene therapies” officially declared to be legitimate vaccines, these may no longer work.

    • Thanks: Mark G., Thomasina
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Almost Missouri


    AFAIK, these largely depend on the fact that the “vaccine” isn’t really a vaccine, but a phase-3 experimental emergency “gene therapy” (itself a euphemism for “random genetic alterations injected into you in the hope of a good outcome”).
     
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/03/17/covid-19-mrna-vaccines-are-not-gene-therapy-as-some-are-claiming/?sh=1f402d083d20

    The Covid-19 mRNA vaccines are not gene therapy because they are not designed to alter or change your genes in any way. The U.S. National Library of Medicine (NLM) describes gene therapy as a technique that “may allow doctors to treat a disorder by inserting a gene into a patient’s cells instead of using drugs or surgery.” For example, doctors may be able to either inactivate or replace a mutated gene that isn’t functioning properly or place a new gene in your body that will do something to combat a disease.

    A gene consists of DNA and serves as the “basic physical and functional unit of heredity,” according to the NLM. Messenger RNA, known as mRNA for short, is different from DNA. RNA stands for ribonucleic acid. DNA stands for deoxyribonucleic acid. DNA serves as the library for instructions to produce different proteins. When a cell wants to produce a protein, it uses the DNA to produce a copy of mRNA. That mRNA then serves as a blueprint for the protein that is built by the ribosomes in your cells. The DNA is in the nucleus of the cell. The ribosomes are not. Thus, the mRNA from a Covid-19 vaccine will not go into the nucleus but instead will simply go to the ribosomes, which in turn will manufacture the spike protein.
     
    For a more comprehensive explanation of how the Pfizer vaccine works and why it is not "gene therapy," see: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-are-not-vaccines-the-new-myth/

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Almost Missouri

  4. Couple notes. You’ve indicated the number of flat-out refuseniks. No indication of those who wait on the sidelines trying to make up their minds. I would expect the number of people who ultimately fail to jab-up will run in the neighborhood of 50%. In my county, the number of vaxxed will run 70% or more. Wal-Mart, or any other business, wouldn’t dare turn away the unvaxxed.

    Second, Black people aren’t so stupid after all. It’s hardwired in.

    • Replies: @p4nc4k3s Pl34s3
    @jsinton

    The graph shows % no+ % not sure. I would assume the % not sure would include people trying to make up their minds.

  5. anon[224] • Disclaimer says:

    Right, quit while you’re ahead and revert to the clinical precepts of informed consent and fitness for vaccination. That would be the rational course.

    Problem is, people with independent habits of mind are a threat. The state has got to keep them on the defensive. If their freedom from medical experimentation is secure, they will turn their attention to rights derogations that are less urgent, but still extremely important:

    False claims of historic import supporting EUAs for which alternative treatments were fraudulently eliminated from consideration.

    SARS-COV-2’s origin in BWTC-illegal offensive biological weapons research, and its use in breach of the 1929 Geneva Convention and Hague (III.)

    Malversation in vaccine procurement tying SARS-COV-2 to the AMERITHRAX attack with illegal US weapons in secure storage.

    Increasing recognition of the US government as a criminal enterprise, on the right and left alike, despite intense state polarization propaganda.

  6. As I said on Anatoly Karlin’s thread on the correlation between IQ and “antivaxx” sentiments,

    Rather than to strive for the reversion to a “normal” life with its late-modern social and cultural decadence (like what Florida and Texas are doing now), it might be a better strategy for the diehard antivaxxer to establish a “savage” lifestyle out of their exclusion from formal social institutions, with its full set of economic and social structures, so they can compete with the Huxleyan “New Normal” – that’s the goal agorists have recognized a long time ago. The perquisite of this is individuals’ awakened determination (覺悟) to cleanly detach from his/her past lives.

    Better to find some meaning outside than trying to get back in.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Yellowface Anon

    What I'm saying is pointing out the obvious - 2020 is the year of medical authoritarianism and 2021 of Techno-Feudalism. And this means alternatives are needed, and that in the US means agorism, agrarianism and local production, which builds independence from formal institutions. You don't need to wait to find many flocking over there.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    , @Barbarossa
    @Yellowface Anon

    That is my and my family's intention in a nutshell. Their are plenty of independent, Amish, or Mennonite businesses that haven't worried about any of NY's mandates. We've chosen to patronize them even more than we were, and will continue to do so. I'd rather give my money to them anyhow.

    So, I'm not too concerned even if they do get more coercive with vaccine mandates.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @nebulafox

    , @Alexander Turok
    @Yellowface Anon

    Most anti-vaxxers are the type of personality liable to C-out if they find themselves inconvenienced in acquiring the latest Double Decker Obesity Sandwich from MacDonalds. Asking them to make a sacrifice for something greater than themselves is gonna be a fool's errand, selfishness is the be-all and end-all.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqRPOEa3P44

  7. Those that are vaccinated should be thanking us instead of demonising us. If or when in few years time long term consequences of the ‘vaccines’ begin to reveal themselves, the presence of a significant un-vaccinated control group will make it easier to demonstrate that the ‘vaccines’ are responsible. Pharmaceutical companies may have been granted immunity from legal consequences but governments and employers are not so protected. It appears to me that the drive to ‘vaccinate’ everyone is at least partly driven by an attempt to eradicate the control group in order to hamper future claims for damages.

  8. If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?

    Anybody touting vaccine passports is either operating on the assumption that the unvaxxed have no agency to assume the risk, which is a big-time civil rights issue, or their logic is simply inverted.

    • Replies: @Greta Handel
    @The Alarmist

    Some of the support among The Vaxxed for the haste and bullying may be a way to cope with their second thoughts about an irrevocable decision. This is human nature.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @V. K. Ovelund
    @The Alarmist


    Anybody touting vaccine passports is either operating on the assumption that the unvaxxed have no agency to assume the risk, which is a big-time civil rights issue, or their logic is simply inverted.
     
    Inverted, indeed, but their virtue signaling is on target.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    , @Adam Smith
    @The Alarmist


    If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?
     
    Vaccines only work if everyone takes them...

    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1746/4337/products/IMG_0156_cropped_384x384.progressive.jpg

    Replies: @Colin Wright

    , @Alexander Turok
    @The Alarmist

    Because the vaccine is 100% effective at preventing corona spread.

    Replies: @The Alarmist

    , @Twinkie
    @The Alarmist


    If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?
     
    I received two doses of the Pfizer vaccine as did my wife (she got hers much earlier as she runs a hospital). I am not afraid of an unvaccinated person next to me. What I am concerned about is two-fold: first, that the unvaccinated (esp. those with mild symptoms) will infect other unvaccinated people who are more vulnerable (old, immuno-compromised, etc.), esp. in places such as hospitals, and, second, that the virus will circulate around among the unvaccinated and mutate into more virulent and/or vaccine-resistant variants.

    That said, I am opposed to forcing people to vaccinate, on the grounds of personal liberty. I am also, however, not opposed to private entities making decisions on vaccinations such as hiring decisions, customers, etc. Liberty goes both ways.

    Also, people and businesses should be open about what their policies are and what they are doing, either way. For example, my wife knows another wife/mom who contracted COVID and then let one of her children continue to participate in an extracurricular activity with other children after lying about COVID status in her family. She made a false declaration to the facility hosting the activity that no one in her family had contracted COVID or had COVID symptoms in the past X weeks when she herself had it (she never isolated herself from her kids either). Her justification was that "Kids don't get it anyway" and "My kid is going crazy being cooped up at home and needs to burn off some energy." She almost bragged about how COVID didn't do much to her to my wife. She didn't rat this person out, but my wife did let other moms know quietly that there was someone lying about COVID status at the facility and then, in turn, received similar texts/emails from other moms (e.g. "I know who it is - she told me she had COVID and still brought her kid too").

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Audacious Epigone, @dfordoom

  9. @The Alarmist
    If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?

    Anybody touting vaccine passports is either operating on the assumption that the unvaxxed have no agency to assume the risk, which is a big-time civil rights issue, or their logic is simply inverted.

    Replies: @Greta Handel, @V. K. Ovelund, @Adam Smith, @Alexander Turok, @Twinkie

    Some of the support among The Vaxxed for the haste and bullying may be a way to cope with their second thoughts about an irrevocable decision. This is human nature.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Greta Handel

    This reminds me of the old delusion gays had that all those straight men were secretly gay and jealous of them and any day now were gonna leave their wives and move to San Fransisco.

  10. @The Alarmist
    If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?

    Anybody touting vaccine passports is either operating on the assumption that the unvaxxed have no agency to assume the risk, which is a big-time civil rights issue, or their logic is simply inverted.

    Replies: @Greta Handel, @V. K. Ovelund, @Adam Smith, @Alexander Turok, @Twinkie

    Anybody touting vaccine passports is either operating on the assumption that the unvaxxed have no agency to assume the risk, which is a big-time civil rights issue, or their logic is simply inverted.

    Inverted, indeed, but their virtue signaling is on target.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Update from the previous thread: I never knew how much the US semiconductor industry relied on Taiwan. Always knew it was important, but damn! Up to 90%?!

    This is dangerous. Even if we had a functioning administration ready to act immediately, without any regard for private interests, to America's long term health-fat chance of that happening-it would take years to rebuild up what we'd need... and the PRC might try to act before that's achieved. Not to mention, Xi's in his late 60s. If he wants to be the man to bring Taiwan back home to the motherland, the clock is ticking.

    All I can say is that I really hope the pain of the next decade forever scars into the American consciousness the important of not cutting corners on vital supplies and always being prepared for the worst.

    Replies: @anon, @Colin Wright, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Audacious Epigone

  11. @jsinton
    Couple notes. You've indicated the number of flat-out refuseniks. No indication of those who wait on the sidelines trying to make up their minds. I would expect the number of people who ultimately fail to jab-up will run in the neighborhood of 50%. In my county, the number of vaxxed will run 70% or more. Wal-Mart, or any other business, wouldn't dare turn away the unvaxxed.

    Second, Black people aren't so stupid after all. It's hardwired in.

    Replies: @p4nc4k3s Pl34s3

    The graph shows % no+ % not sure. I would assume the % not sure would include people trying to make up their minds.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  12. In light of the information released in this video, it would be more likely that the U.S. military was targeted and infected when in China for the Military Games and brought the disease back with them to the USA than that they were the source of its spread in China, as maintained by Ron Unz. Note: “more likely” does not mean “absolutely certain”.

    You must rewind to zero to hear the important part.

    You must rewind to zero to hear the important part.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @ThreeCranes

    Why would the Chinese have intentionally unleashed a pandemic that was going to hit their nation right out the gate? Occam's razor would suggest a simple lab leak. These things can easily happen if you aren't careful. That's why anybody doing research on stuff like this is put through insanely rigorous safety training, at least in the US.

    (No, I never bought the nonsense the CCP peddled about wet markets: Wuhan is their equivalent to Fort Detrick, for Chrissakes. Hubei in general has pretty deep ties to the PLA that go back to the Mao days when they located their emergency bunkers there in event of nuclear war with the Soviets. But then, most Chinese don't take the government line at face value, either. General attitude there from my experience was genuine shock that Americans actually take anything media outlets say at face value, because you always assume there's a spin of some kind. Wise policy, TBH.)

    Replies: @ThreeCranes

  13. @The Alarmist
    If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?

    Anybody touting vaccine passports is either operating on the assumption that the unvaxxed have no agency to assume the risk, which is a big-time civil rights issue, or their logic is simply inverted.

    Replies: @Greta Handel, @V. K. Ovelund, @Adam Smith, @Alexander Turok, @Twinkie

    If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?

    Vaccines only work if everyone takes them…

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Adam Smith

    'Vaccines only work if everyone takes them…'

    That's a very strange statement. I, for example, have been vaccinated against polio, smallpox, and shingles, to name three that come to mind.

    How are these vaccines ineffectual if you haven't taken them? I bet I'm protected against polio, smallpox, and shingles no matter what you do.

    Replies: @Wielgus, @Adam Smith

  14. @V. K. Ovelund
    @The Alarmist


    Anybody touting vaccine passports is either operating on the assumption that the unvaxxed have no agency to assume the risk, which is a big-time civil rights issue, or their logic is simply inverted.
     
    Inverted, indeed, but their virtue signaling is on target.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Update from the previous thread: I never knew how much the US semiconductor industry relied on Taiwan. Always knew it was important, but damn! Up to 90%?!

    This is dangerous. Even if we had a functioning administration ready to act immediately, without any regard for private interests, to America’s long term health-fat chance of that happening-it would take years to rebuild up what we’d need… and the PRC might try to act before that’s achieved. Not to mention, Xi’s in his late 60s. If he wants to be the man to bring Taiwan back home to the motherland, the clock is ticking.

    All I can say is that I really hope the pain of the next decade forever scars into the American consciousness the important of not cutting corners on vital supplies and always being prepared for the worst.

    • Replies: @anon
    @nebulafox

    It is not an accident that Taiwan Semi is in the process of spending $12,000,000,000 (12 billion) dollars to build a brand new fab in Chandler, Arizona - right down the road from not only the existing Intel fabs, but the two (2 !) new Intel fab expansions that have been announced.

    , @Colin Wright
    @nebulafox

    '...All I can say is that I really hope the pain of the next decade forever scars into the American consciousness the important of not cutting corners on vital supplies and always being prepared for the worst.

    About all it will sear into our consciousness is a belief that it all must be someone else's fault. Probably Russia's. Maybe China's. Conceivably both.

    Iran's?

    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    @nebulafox


    Update from the previous thread: I never knew how much the US semiconductor industry relied on Taiwan. Always knew it was important, but damn! Up to 90%?!
     
    Then there's South Korea, who produced something like 65% of the world's memory chips in 2020.

    I mean, no sweat right? Their geostrategic situation is far better than Taiwan's.

    Replies: @anon, @nebulafox

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @nebulafox

    Maybe John Cena's pathetic groveling was about a little more than keeping a movie market open.

  15. @ThreeCranes
    In light of the information released in this video, it would be more likely that the U.S. military was targeted and infected when in China for the Military Games and brought the disease back with them to the USA than that they were the source of its spread in China, as maintained by Ron Unz. Note: "more likely" does not mean "absolutely certain".

    You must rewind to zero to hear the important part.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhb4aazJMF0&t=907s

    You must rewind to zero to hear the important part.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Why would the Chinese have intentionally unleashed a pandemic that was going to hit their nation right out the gate? Occam’s razor would suggest a simple lab leak. These things can easily happen if you aren’t careful. That’s why anybody doing research on stuff like this is put through insanely rigorous safety training, at least in the US.

    (No, I never bought the nonsense the CCP peddled about wet markets: Wuhan is their equivalent to Fort Detrick, for Chrissakes. Hubei in general has pretty deep ties to the PLA that go back to the Mao days when they located their emergency bunkers there in event of nuclear war with the Soviets. But then, most Chinese don’t take the government line at face value, either. General attitude there from my experience was genuine shock that Americans actually take anything media outlets say at face value, because you always assume there’s a spin of some kind. Wise policy, TBH.)

    • Agree: Triteleia Laxa
    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    @nebulafox

    I agree and have believed and said as much from the start; that the leak was unintentional, from the Wuhan lab. Accidents happen. I don't know why they need to play around with these extremely dangerous concoctions, especially if they were doing gain of function as has been rumored about Fauci's efforts here and then shipping it off to China.

    I still recall Thalidomide and the shock and humility it produced in the pharmaceutical chemist community.

  16. @nebulafox
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Update from the previous thread: I never knew how much the US semiconductor industry relied on Taiwan. Always knew it was important, but damn! Up to 90%?!

    This is dangerous. Even if we had a functioning administration ready to act immediately, without any regard for private interests, to America's long term health-fat chance of that happening-it would take years to rebuild up what we'd need... and the PRC might try to act before that's achieved. Not to mention, Xi's in his late 60s. If he wants to be the man to bring Taiwan back home to the motherland, the clock is ticking.

    All I can say is that I really hope the pain of the next decade forever scars into the American consciousness the important of not cutting corners on vital supplies and always being prepared for the worst.

    Replies: @anon, @Colin Wright, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Audacious Epigone

    It is not an accident that Taiwan Semi is in the process of spending $12,000,000,000 (12 billion) dollars to build a brand new fab in Chandler, Arizona – right down the road from not only the existing Intel fabs, but the two (2 !) new Intel fab expansions that have been announced.

  17. @The Alarmist
    If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?

    Anybody touting vaccine passports is either operating on the assumption that the unvaxxed have no agency to assume the risk, which is a big-time civil rights issue, or their logic is simply inverted.

    Replies: @Greta Handel, @V. K. Ovelund, @Adam Smith, @Alexander Turok, @Twinkie

    Because the vaccine is 100% effective at preventing corona spread.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @Alexander Turok

    You forgot the /sarc tag

    Replies: @Alexander Turok

  18. Anonymous[407] • Disclaimer says:
    @Greta Handel
    @The Alarmist

    Some of the support among The Vaxxed for the haste and bullying may be a way to cope with their second thoughts about an irrevocable decision. This is human nature.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    This reminds me of the old delusion gays had that all those straight men were secretly gay and jealous of them and any day now were gonna leave their wives and move to San Fransisco.

    • LOL: LondonBob
  19. @Adam Smith
    @The Alarmist


    If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?
     
    Vaccines only work if everyone takes them...

    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1746/4337/products/IMG_0156_cropped_384x384.progressive.jpg

    Replies: @Colin Wright

    ‘Vaccines only work if everyone takes them…’

    That’s a very strange statement. I, for example, have been vaccinated against polio, smallpox, and shingles, to name three that come to mind.

    How are these vaccines ineffectual if you haven’t taken them? I bet I’m protected against polio, smallpox, and shingles no matter what you do.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
    @Colin Wright

    Exactly. Big Pharma will of course reap big bucks if everyone takes the vaccine, but the idea that it has to be total coverage is garbage. Either they work on those vaccinated or they don't.

    , @Adam Smith
    @Colin Wright

    Good morning Mr. Wright,

    I hope this message finds you well.
    Sarcasm is often difficult to detect in a comment window.

    I was trying to point out that some people believe that nonvaxxed people are dangerous disease spreaders. (I believe that recently vaxxed people spread disease and should quarantine for about a month after each jab. I also believe that it is better and safer to catch a disease naturally while avoiding the unnecessary chemicals found in vaccines, some of which are known to be dangerous to our health and wellbeing.)

    Some vaxxers really do seem to be concerned that an uninjected person somehow poses a threat to them and society, thus the push for universal jabbing and so called “vaccine passports”. It's like a form of doublethink to have faith in the sacramental needle and to also be afraid that you can catch the disease from the unvaxxed heathens. (If vaccines work why should a vaxxer worry about catching that disease from a nonvaxxer?)

    Take a look at some of the comments under the provaxx articles in the washington post and you will read many comments that convey this message. It's like some people really believe that vaccines only work if everyone takes them, and some of them are willing to use state violence to achieve universal compliance. Such interesting times.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

  20. @nebulafox
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Update from the previous thread: I never knew how much the US semiconductor industry relied on Taiwan. Always knew it was important, but damn! Up to 90%?!

    This is dangerous. Even if we had a functioning administration ready to act immediately, without any regard for private interests, to America's long term health-fat chance of that happening-it would take years to rebuild up what we'd need... and the PRC might try to act before that's achieved. Not to mention, Xi's in his late 60s. If he wants to be the man to bring Taiwan back home to the motherland, the clock is ticking.

    All I can say is that I really hope the pain of the next decade forever scars into the American consciousness the important of not cutting corners on vital supplies and always being prepared for the worst.

    Replies: @anon, @Colin Wright, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Audacious Epigone

    ‘…All I can say is that I really hope the pain of the next decade forever scars into the American consciousness the important of not cutting corners on vital supplies and always being prepared for the worst.

    About all it will sear into our consciousness is a belief that it all must be someone else’s fault. Probably Russia’s. Maybe China’s. Conceivably both.

    Iran’s?

    • Agree: dfordoom
  21. @nebulafox
    @ThreeCranes

    Why would the Chinese have intentionally unleashed a pandemic that was going to hit their nation right out the gate? Occam's razor would suggest a simple lab leak. These things can easily happen if you aren't careful. That's why anybody doing research on stuff like this is put through insanely rigorous safety training, at least in the US.

    (No, I never bought the nonsense the CCP peddled about wet markets: Wuhan is their equivalent to Fort Detrick, for Chrissakes. Hubei in general has pretty deep ties to the PLA that go back to the Mao days when they located their emergency bunkers there in event of nuclear war with the Soviets. But then, most Chinese don't take the government line at face value, either. General attitude there from my experience was genuine shock that Americans actually take anything media outlets say at face value, because you always assume there's a spin of some kind. Wise policy, TBH.)

    Replies: @ThreeCranes

    I agree and have believed and said as much from the start; that the leak was unintentional, from the Wuhan lab. Accidents happen. I don’t know why they need to play around with these extremely dangerous concoctions, especially if they were doing gain of function as has been rumored about Fauci’s efforts here and then shipping it off to China.

    I still recall Thalidomide and the shock and humility it produced in the pharmaceutical chemist community.

  22. @Yellowface Anon
    As I said on Anatoly Karlin's thread on the correlation between IQ and "antivaxx" sentiments,

    Rather than to strive for the reversion to a “normal” life with its late-modern social and cultural decadence (like what Florida and Texas are doing now), it might be a better strategy for the diehard antivaxxer to establish a “savage” lifestyle out of their exclusion from formal social institutions, with its full set of economic and social structures, so they can compete with the Huxleyan “New Normal” – that’s the goal agorists have recognized a long time ago. The perquisite of this is individuals’ awakened determination (覺悟) to cleanly detach from his/her past lives.
     
    Better to find some meaning outside than trying to get back in.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Barbarossa, @Alexander Turok

    What I’m saying is pointing out the obvious – 2020 is the year of medical authoritarianism and 2021 of Techno-Feudalism. And this means alternatives are needed, and that in the US means agorism, agrarianism and local production, which builds independence from formal institutions. You don’t need to wait to find many flocking over there.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Yellowface Anon


    And this means alternatives are needed, and that in the US means agorism, agrarianism and local production, which builds independence from formal institutions.
     
    Are there any good examples of this, ever, anywhere, though?

    National production is one thing, but local production just does not produce enough.

    @Mulga Mumblebrain


    I do have the increasing impression that this pandemic was very carefully planned. The clincher is the manner in which cheap, very safe, medications like HCQ and ivermectin have been so fanatically slandered and their use repressed. That is either diabolical Big Pharma greed, or something far worse.
     
    I do not understand why more prosaic explanations do not suit. Does it have to have been a preplanned conspiracy?

    With respect to Ron Unz, I find his observations regarding foreknowledge of the pandemic unconvincing. I don't find the other conspiracies convincing, either, when more straightforward explanations conjoined with opportunistic political posturing seem to suffice.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @dfordoom

  23. If Geert vanden Bossche is correct that mass vaccination during a pandemic is unwise because it will drive virus evolution to evade the vaccines and become more transmissible, perhaps more virulent, then the unvaccinated will be in danger, as was the experience with Marek’s Disease in poultry. I do have the increasing impression that this pandemic was very carefully planned. The clincher is the manner in which cheap, very safe, medications like HCQ and ivermectin have been so fanatically slandered and their use repressed. That is either diabolical Big Pharma greed, or something far worse.

  24. @Alexander Turok
    @The Alarmist

    Because the vaccine is 100% effective at preventing corona spread.

    Replies: @The Alarmist

    You forgot the /sarc tag

    • Replies: @Alexander Turok
    @The Alarmist

    I meant to say it isn't 100% effective.

    Replies: @The Alarmist

  25. @Colin Wright
    @Adam Smith

    'Vaccines only work if everyone takes them…'

    That's a very strange statement. I, for example, have been vaccinated against polio, smallpox, and shingles, to name three that come to mind.

    How are these vaccines ineffectual if you haven't taken them? I bet I'm protected against polio, smallpox, and shingles no matter what you do.

    Replies: @Wielgus, @Adam Smith

    Exactly. Big Pharma will of course reap big bucks if everyone takes the vaccine, but the idea that it has to be total coverage is garbage. Either they work on those vaccinated or they don’t.

  26. @Yellowface Anon
    @Yellowface Anon

    What I'm saying is pointing out the obvious - 2020 is the year of medical authoritarianism and 2021 of Techno-Feudalism. And this means alternatives are needed, and that in the US means agorism, agrarianism and local production, which builds independence from formal institutions. You don't need to wait to find many flocking over there.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    And this means alternatives are needed, and that in the US means agorism, agrarianism and local production, which builds independence from formal institutions.

    Are there any good examples of this, ever, anywhere, though?

    National production is one thing, but local production just does not produce enough.

    @Mulga Mumblebrain

    I do have the increasing impression that this pandemic was very carefully planned. The clincher is the manner in which cheap, very safe, medications like HCQ and ivermectin have been so fanatically slandered and their use repressed. That is either diabolical Big Pharma greed, or something far worse.

    I do not understand why more prosaic explanations do not suit. Does it have to have been a preplanned conspiracy?

    With respect to Ron Unz, I find his observations regarding foreknowledge of the pandemic unconvincing. I don’t find the other conspiracies convincing, either, when more straightforward explanations conjoined with opportunistic political posturing seem to suffice.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @V. K. Ovelund


    National production is one thing, but local production just does not produce enough.
     
    It won't in any industrial scale. But what does Schwab want but much less for the masses and a smaller masses at that? If the elites don't want mass production for the common man, why should those below them ape for it?
    More scarcity, but more liberty and sovereignty both individually and communally.
    , @dfordoom
    @V. K. Ovelund



    And this means alternatives are needed, and that in the US means agorism, agrarianism and local production, which builds independence from formal institutions.
     
    Are there any good examples of this, ever, anywhere, though?

    National production is one thing, but local production just does not produce enough.
     
    I agree.

    Isn't agorism just another silly dream world offshoot of libertarianism?

    Agorism, agrarianism and local production sounds like hippie nonsense.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

  27. @Almost Missouri

    If the unvaccinated need not be waited on then the cake doesn’t need to be baked, either.
     
    That sounds logical, but allow me to introduce the American legal concept of "protected class". This bit of legal sophistry really does mean that some animals are more equal than others. Unvaccinated bodily integrity is not a protected class, but anal fetishism is. So while you don't need to wait on the unvaccinated, the gay cake still must be baked.

    (The unvaccinated black girl can still be legally turned away from Walmart, but, as you suggest, she can depend on "optics" and media amplification to get her way without resort to the law.)

    ------

    As a public service to those of us who still cherish the memory of the America of freedom and opportunity, I note that for purposes of employment and education, there are still legal avenues for the vaxx-averse. AFAIK, these largely depend on the fact that the "vaccine" isn't really a vaccine, but a phase-3 experimental emergency "gene therapy" (itself a euphemism for "random genetic alterations injected into you in the hope of a good outcome"). So once Big Pharma and their co-conspirators get their experimental "gene therapies" officially declared to be legitimate vaccines, these may no longer work.

    https://twitter.com/drsimonegold/status/1395727565164322816

    https://twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/status/1395404944925249536

    Replies: @Twinkie

    AFAIK, these largely depend on the fact that the “vaccine” isn’t really a vaccine, but a phase-3 experimental emergency “gene therapy” (itself a euphemism for “random genetic alterations injected into you in the hope of a good outcome”).

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/03/17/covid-19-mrna-vaccines-are-not-gene-therapy-as-some-are-claiming/?sh=1f402d083d20

    The Covid-19 mRNA vaccines are not gene therapy because they are not designed to alter or change your genes in any way. The U.S. National Library of Medicine (NLM) describes gene therapy as a technique that “may allow doctors to treat a disorder by inserting a gene into a patient’s cells instead of using drugs or surgery.” For example, doctors may be able to either inactivate or replace a mutated gene that isn’t functioning properly or place a new gene in your body that will do something to combat a disease.

    A gene consists of DNA and serves as the “basic physical and functional unit of heredity,” according to the NLM. Messenger RNA, known as mRNA for short, is different from DNA. RNA stands for ribonucleic acid. DNA stands for deoxyribonucleic acid. DNA serves as the library for instructions to produce different proteins. When a cell wants to produce a protein, it uses the DNA to produce a copy of mRNA. That mRNA then serves as a blueprint for the protein that is built by the ribosomes in your cells. The DNA is in the nucleus of the cell. The ribosomes are not. Thus, the mRNA from a Covid-19 vaccine will not go into the nucleus but instead will simply go to the ribosomes, which in turn will manufacture the spike protein.

    For a more comprehensive explanation of how the Pfizer vaccine works and why it is not “gene therapy,” see: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-are-not-vaccines-the-new-myth/

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Twinkie


    For a more comprehensive explanation of how the Pfizer vaccine works and why it is not “gene therapy,” see ...
     
    The problem, of course, is that too many experts in too many fields, including medicine, have prioritized political posturing above honest professional practice. Public trust has cratered.

    Since trust in you has not cratered, your references are most helpful.

    I do not ask you to answer questions you do not wish to answer, but if you like: do you see any significant benefit of COVID vaccination to persons who have already naturally contracted, and recovered from, the disease?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Twinkie

    Thanks, Twinkie. There appears to be a push by Big Pharma's marketing departments to bury the term "gene therapy" since it sounds scary and invites more regulatory oversight. Nevertheless, "gene therapy" is the term that has been used for years in the scientific literature for mRNA treatments until at least as recently as the month before COVID-19 came out. Is there a more accurate name for using genetic material for therapeutic purposes? I dunno, but the "gene therapy" name is already in use and on point, despite recent efforts to retcon it away.

    As for its purported safety, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It seems a little early to say. That's why we normally have extensive trials, data collection and review, rather than this unprecedented "Emergency Use Authorization" with little effort to collect, track and analyze adverse effects. The history of science is replete with things that scientists assured everyone were safe up until the moment it turned out they were catastrophically wrong.

    And yes, I understand how the mRNA "vaccine" is supposed to work and why it is not supposed to affect the patient's DNA. But if there is one overarching lesson of science (as opposed to Science!™), it is that we don't know everything (as opposed to Science!™, which insists it is always the ultimate authority). We do know that DNA matters and that RNA works closely with it, but we think that it is not quite close enough cause collateral harm. Okay, but we've been wrong before, and the rushed nature of these treatments doesn't inspire confidence.

    We've been here before, and before that. A little prudence and humility may be in order. Instead, no effort is being spared to impose the "vaccine" on everyone.

    And the unforeseen risks may already be presenting themselves...

    https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf

    Replies: @Twinkie

  28. @The Alarmist
    If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?

    Anybody touting vaccine passports is either operating on the assumption that the unvaxxed have no agency to assume the risk, which is a big-time civil rights issue, or their logic is simply inverted.

    Replies: @Greta Handel, @V. K. Ovelund, @Adam Smith, @Alexander Turok, @Twinkie

    If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?

    I received two doses of the Pfizer vaccine as did my wife (she got hers much earlier as she runs a hospital). I am not afraid of an unvaccinated person next to me. What I am concerned about is two-fold: first, that the unvaccinated (esp. those with mild symptoms) will infect other unvaccinated people who are more vulnerable (old, immuno-compromised, etc.), esp. in places such as hospitals, and, second, that the virus will circulate around among the unvaccinated and mutate into more virulent and/or vaccine-resistant variants.

    That said, I am opposed to forcing people to vaccinate, on the grounds of personal liberty. I am also, however, not opposed to private entities making decisions on vaccinations such as hiring decisions, customers, etc. Liberty goes both ways.

    Also, people and businesses should be open about what their policies are and what they are doing, either way. For example, my wife knows another wife/mom who contracted COVID and then let one of her children continue to participate in an extracurricular activity with other children after lying about COVID status in her family. She made a false declaration to the facility hosting the activity that no one in her family had contracted COVID or had COVID symptoms in the past X weeks when she herself had it (she never isolated herself from her kids either). Her justification was that “Kids don’t get it anyway” and “My kid is going crazy being cooped up at home and needs to burn off some energy.” She almost bragged about how COVID didn’t do much to her to my wife. She didn’t rat this person out, but my wife did let other moms know quietly that there was someone lying about COVID status at the facility and then, in turn, received similar texts/emails from other moms (e.g. “I know who it is – she told me she had COVID and still brought her kid too”).

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @Twinkie

    The vaxxes are more likely to cause the virus to mutate to a more dangerous variant in vaxxed persons, who can apparently still harbour it, carry it, and spread it; viruses in nature tend to mutate to less lethal variants.

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @Twinkie

    I am also, however, not opposed to private entities making decisions on vaccinations such as hiring decisions, customers, etc. Liberty goes both ways.

    If an employee of an employer who requires a shot has adverse effects, is the employer on the hook for those effects?

    Replies: @anon

    , @dfordoom
    @Twinkie


    I am also, however, not opposed to private entities making decisions on vaccinations such as hiring decisions, customers, etc. Liberty goes both ways.
     
    I assume you'd also be quite OK with private entities refusing to employ you because of your political beliefs? Or refusing to employ you because you're a Christian?
  29. @Twinkie
    @Almost Missouri


    AFAIK, these largely depend on the fact that the “vaccine” isn’t really a vaccine, but a phase-3 experimental emergency “gene therapy” (itself a euphemism for “random genetic alterations injected into you in the hope of a good outcome”).
     
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/03/17/covid-19-mrna-vaccines-are-not-gene-therapy-as-some-are-claiming/?sh=1f402d083d20

    The Covid-19 mRNA vaccines are not gene therapy because they are not designed to alter or change your genes in any way. The U.S. National Library of Medicine (NLM) describes gene therapy as a technique that “may allow doctors to treat a disorder by inserting a gene into a patient’s cells instead of using drugs or surgery.” For example, doctors may be able to either inactivate or replace a mutated gene that isn’t functioning properly or place a new gene in your body that will do something to combat a disease.

    A gene consists of DNA and serves as the “basic physical and functional unit of heredity,” according to the NLM. Messenger RNA, known as mRNA for short, is different from DNA. RNA stands for ribonucleic acid. DNA stands for deoxyribonucleic acid. DNA serves as the library for instructions to produce different proteins. When a cell wants to produce a protein, it uses the DNA to produce a copy of mRNA. That mRNA then serves as a blueprint for the protein that is built by the ribosomes in your cells. The DNA is in the nucleus of the cell. The ribosomes are not. Thus, the mRNA from a Covid-19 vaccine will not go into the nucleus but instead will simply go to the ribosomes, which in turn will manufacture the spike protein.
     
    For a more comprehensive explanation of how the Pfizer vaccine works and why it is not "gene therapy," see: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-are-not-vaccines-the-new-myth/

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Almost Missouri

    For a more comprehensive explanation of how the Pfizer vaccine works and why it is not “gene therapy,” see …

    The problem, of course, is that too many experts in too many fields, including medicine, have prioritized political posturing above honest professional practice. Public trust has cratered.

    Since trust in you has not cratered, your references are most helpful.

    I do not ask you to answer questions you do not wish to answer, but if you like: do you see any significant benefit of COVID vaccination to persons who have already naturally contracted, and recovered from, the disease?

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @V. K. Ovelund


    The problem, of course, is that too many experts in too many fields, including medicine, have prioritized political posturing above honest professional practice. Public trust has cratered.
     
    Absolutely. Trust in major institutions has collapsed and rightly so. They have lied and misled us. Moreover, everything is now politicized and tribal, and it’s nearly impossible to get unbiased information in public. If Trump says that the virus leaked from a Chinese lab, a third of the population treats anyone who suggests a man-made origin of the virus as a conspiracy-monger. If Fauci says the vaccine is generally effective and safe, another third of the population says it’s a deep state/big Pharma tool to control us.

    We are all on our own here and must rely on private information networks and our own reasoning capacity and education. For example, I don’t trust anything I read online about the pandemic and related healthcare issues unless I clear it with my wife and her colleagues as well as some of my work acquaintances. She and I also rely on friends with even deeper expertise such as an MD-Ph.D. who is a researcher at NIH (he had everyone in his family vaccinated as soon as possible including the youngest child who is in the 12-15 group - got the first dose and is awaiting the second).

    do you see any significant benefit of COVID vaccination to persons who have already naturally contracted, and recovered from, the disease?
     
    I think that depends on when you had the illness. For the first several months after recovering, your immune response is usually very strong. Thereafter it would decline. I would think after about year or so, it would be pretty weak. Also, the severity of the past illness might be a factor. I’ve read one research that seems to suggest that one dose boosts immunity very strongly for the previously ill and the second dose doesn’t add much value.

    If it were me, I’d receive the vaccination.

    I actually suspect that my wife and I both had COVID in the winter of 2019-2020. We both came down with an unusual flu-like illness (my wife tested positive for the flu, I tested negative) - we hadn’t had the flu in years and have vaccinated against it yearly. The oldest of our children was also mildly sick while the rest had no symptom.

    My wife likely brought it from the hospital where it went through entire floors quickly. That winter her staff had the worst absenteeism from “the flu” in living memory. Everyone there said that it was the worst flu season there ever. It was also at the same time period when a local nursing home also had an outbreak of a mystery respiratory illness that killed a number of the residents.

    Unfortunately we never had the antibody testing done to confirm. I wish we had.

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @nebulafox

  30. Sub says:

    What a crock Twinkie. The fact that the damn dictionary had to sneakily change the definition of what a vaccine is this year in order for it to cover the mRNA “vaccines” is very telling. You can also see the recent alterations in the definitions provided by your second link.

    The Forbes article is a perfect example for the Gell-Mann amnesia effect for anyone with even a high school education in biology, with the money quote being “The U.S. National Library of Medicine (NLM) describes gene therapy as a technique that “may allow doctors to treat a disorder by inserting a gene into a patient’s cells instead of using drugs or surgery.”” Genes are just units of heredity, so they can be either DNA or RNA, depending on the context. Considering that in this case they are inserting a modified gene from an RNA virus into people, calling it a gene therapy is entirely appropriate. I love how the “it’s not gene therapy” crowd can somehow simultaneously think that the spike protein RNA is a gene when SARS-COV-2 is the one inserting it into the cells, but suddenly when you take virtually the exact same material, wrap it in a nanoparticle coating, and inject it with a needle instead of a virus, it is no longer a gene. Doublethink is real.

    The Covid vaccines would much more appropriately be called “vaccine analogue gene therapies” in my opinion, but that wouldn’t allow them to trade on the known high safety profile of existing vaccines to push these drugs, so it’s right out. Of course, people could then go and check VAERS and see that just shy of half of all vaccine-related deaths in the last 30 years have occurred as the result of these very safe definitely not gene therapy treatments, which is why VAERS now has all kinds of disclaimers about how technically anyone can submit to it. Funny how you didn’t need those disclaimers over the last few decades while you used VAERS as proof of vaccine safety, eh CDC, although I’m pretty sure anti-vaccination people have been around almost as long as vaccines.

    The SkepticalRaptor blog piece is clearly the work of “I fucking love science”, and reflects the kind of crap thinking that bunch usually has. Aside from the usual fawning over priests in white coats that agree with my orthodoxy, they clearly don’t understand modern molecular biology when they say things like “So, let me repeat what I’ve written before – the mRNA fragments in these vaccines will not and cannot change your DNA. It is as close to “impossible” as I can imagine in science.” Discovering reverse transcriptase was a Nobel winning bit of research several generations ago, so I’m not sure why anyone claiming to explain biology in the year 2021 could handwave it away, especially when the evidence continues to accumulate that endogenous retroviruses play an important role in the evolution of the genome.

  31. Black people will be excepted from forced coerced vaccination because Tuskegee.

  32. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Twinkie


    For a more comprehensive explanation of how the Pfizer vaccine works and why it is not “gene therapy,” see ...
     
    The problem, of course, is that too many experts in too many fields, including medicine, have prioritized political posturing above honest professional practice. Public trust has cratered.

    Since trust in you has not cratered, your references are most helpful.

    I do not ask you to answer questions you do not wish to answer, but if you like: do you see any significant benefit of COVID vaccination to persons who have already naturally contracted, and recovered from, the disease?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    The problem, of course, is that too many experts in too many fields, including medicine, have prioritized political posturing above honest professional practice. Public trust has cratered.

    Absolutely. Trust in major institutions has collapsed and rightly so. They have lied and misled us. Moreover, everything is now politicized and tribal, and it’s nearly impossible to get unbiased information in public. If Trump says that the virus leaked from a Chinese lab, a third of the population treats anyone who suggests a man-made origin of the virus as a conspiracy-monger. If Fauci says the vaccine is generally effective and safe, another third of the population says it’s a deep state/big Pharma tool to control us.

    We are all on our own here and must rely on private information networks and our own reasoning capacity and education. For example, I don’t trust anything I read online about the pandemic and related healthcare issues unless I clear it with my wife and her colleagues as well as some of my work acquaintances. She and I also rely on friends with even deeper expertise such as an MD-Ph.D. who is a researcher at NIH (he had everyone in his family vaccinated as soon as possible including the youngest child who is in the 12-15 group – got the first dose and is awaiting the second).

    do you see any significant benefit of COVID vaccination to persons who have already naturally contracted, and recovered from, the disease?

    I think that depends on when you had the illness. For the first several months after recovering, your immune response is usually very strong. Thereafter it would decline. I would think after about year or so, it would be pretty weak. Also, the severity of the past illness might be a factor. I’ve read one research that seems to suggest that one dose boosts immunity very strongly for the previously ill and the second dose doesn’t add much value.

    If it were me, I’d receive the vaccination.

    I actually suspect that my wife and I both had COVID in the winter of 2019-2020. We both came down with an unusual flu-like illness (my wife tested positive for the flu, I tested negative) – we hadn’t had the flu in years and have vaccinated against it yearly. The oldest of our children was also mildly sick while the rest had no symptom.

    My wife likely brought it from the hospital where it went through entire floors quickly. That winter her staff had the worst absenteeism from “the flu” in living memory. Everyone there said that it was the worst flu season there ever. It was also at the same time period when a local nursing home also had an outbreak of a mystery respiratory illness that killed a number of the residents.

    Unfortunately we never had the antibody testing done to confirm. I wish we had.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @Twinkie


    If it were me, I’d receive the vaccination.
     
    Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to have a T-Cell test done and only take the vaxx if your response is weak to nil? It might also be a good idea to be cautious about taking a vaxx if you still have antibodies from a natural infection.
    , @nebulafox
    @Twinkie

    >We are all on our own here and must rely on private information networks and our own reasoning capacity and education. For example, I don’t trust anything I read online about the pandemic and related healthcare issues unless I clear it with my wife and her colleagues as well as some of my work acquaintances. She and I also rely on friends with even deeper expertise such as an MD-Ph.D. who is a researcher at NIH (he had everyone in his family vaccinated as soon as possible including the youngest child who is in the 12-15 group – got the first dose and is awaiting the second).

    >If it were me, I’d receive the vaccination.

    OK.

  33. @Twinkie
    @The Alarmist


    If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?
     
    I received two doses of the Pfizer vaccine as did my wife (she got hers much earlier as she runs a hospital). I am not afraid of an unvaccinated person next to me. What I am concerned about is two-fold: first, that the unvaccinated (esp. those with mild symptoms) will infect other unvaccinated people who are more vulnerable (old, immuno-compromised, etc.), esp. in places such as hospitals, and, second, that the virus will circulate around among the unvaccinated and mutate into more virulent and/or vaccine-resistant variants.

    That said, I am opposed to forcing people to vaccinate, on the grounds of personal liberty. I am also, however, not opposed to private entities making decisions on vaccinations such as hiring decisions, customers, etc. Liberty goes both ways.

    Also, people and businesses should be open about what their policies are and what they are doing, either way. For example, my wife knows another wife/mom who contracted COVID and then let one of her children continue to participate in an extracurricular activity with other children after lying about COVID status in her family. She made a false declaration to the facility hosting the activity that no one in her family had contracted COVID or had COVID symptoms in the past X weeks when she herself had it (she never isolated herself from her kids either). Her justification was that "Kids don't get it anyway" and "My kid is going crazy being cooped up at home and needs to burn off some energy." She almost bragged about how COVID didn't do much to her to my wife. She didn't rat this person out, but my wife did let other moms know quietly that there was someone lying about COVID status at the facility and then, in turn, received similar texts/emails from other moms (e.g. "I know who it is - she told me she had COVID and still brought her kid too").

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Audacious Epigone, @dfordoom

    The vaxxes are more likely to cause the virus to mutate to a more dangerous variant in vaxxed persons, who can apparently still harbour it, carry it, and spread it; viruses in nature tend to mutate to less lethal variants.

    • Agree: Adam Smith
  34. @Twinkie
    @V. K. Ovelund


    The problem, of course, is that too many experts in too many fields, including medicine, have prioritized political posturing above honest professional practice. Public trust has cratered.
     
    Absolutely. Trust in major institutions has collapsed and rightly so. They have lied and misled us. Moreover, everything is now politicized and tribal, and it’s nearly impossible to get unbiased information in public. If Trump says that the virus leaked from a Chinese lab, a third of the population treats anyone who suggests a man-made origin of the virus as a conspiracy-monger. If Fauci says the vaccine is generally effective and safe, another third of the population says it’s a deep state/big Pharma tool to control us.

    We are all on our own here and must rely on private information networks and our own reasoning capacity and education. For example, I don’t trust anything I read online about the pandemic and related healthcare issues unless I clear it with my wife and her colleagues as well as some of my work acquaintances. She and I also rely on friends with even deeper expertise such as an MD-Ph.D. who is a researcher at NIH (he had everyone in his family vaccinated as soon as possible including the youngest child who is in the 12-15 group - got the first dose and is awaiting the second).

    do you see any significant benefit of COVID vaccination to persons who have already naturally contracted, and recovered from, the disease?
     
    I think that depends on when you had the illness. For the first several months after recovering, your immune response is usually very strong. Thereafter it would decline. I would think after about year or so, it would be pretty weak. Also, the severity of the past illness might be a factor. I’ve read one research that seems to suggest that one dose boosts immunity very strongly for the previously ill and the second dose doesn’t add much value.

    If it were me, I’d receive the vaccination.

    I actually suspect that my wife and I both had COVID in the winter of 2019-2020. We both came down with an unusual flu-like illness (my wife tested positive for the flu, I tested negative) - we hadn’t had the flu in years and have vaccinated against it yearly. The oldest of our children was also mildly sick while the rest had no symptom.

    My wife likely brought it from the hospital where it went through entire floors quickly. That winter her staff had the worst absenteeism from “the flu” in living memory. Everyone there said that it was the worst flu season there ever. It was also at the same time period when a local nursing home also had an outbreak of a mystery respiratory illness that killed a number of the residents.

    Unfortunately we never had the antibody testing done to confirm. I wish we had.

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @nebulafox

    If it were me, I’d receive the vaccination.

    Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to have a T-Cell test done and only take the vaxx if your response is weak to nil? It might also be a good idea to be cautious about taking a vaxx if you still have antibodies from a natural infection.

  35. @Colin Wright
    @Adam Smith

    'Vaccines only work if everyone takes them…'

    That's a very strange statement. I, for example, have been vaccinated against polio, smallpox, and shingles, to name three that come to mind.

    How are these vaccines ineffectual if you haven't taken them? I bet I'm protected against polio, smallpox, and shingles no matter what you do.

    Replies: @Wielgus, @Adam Smith

    Good morning Mr. Wright,

    I hope this message finds you well.
    Sarcasm is often difficult to detect in a comment window.

    I was trying to point out that some people believe that nonvaxxed people are dangerous disease spreaders. (I believe that recently vaxxed people spread disease and should quarantine for about a month after each jab. I also believe that it is better and safer to catch a disease naturally while avoiding the unnecessary chemicals found in vaccines, some of which are known to be dangerous to our health and wellbeing.)

    Some vaxxers really do seem to be concerned that an uninjected person somehow poses a threat to them and society, thus the push for universal jabbing and so called “vaccine passports”. It’s like a form of doublethink to have faith in the sacramental needle and to also be afraid that you can catch the disease from the unvaxxed heathens. (If vaccines work why should a vaxxer worry about catching that disease from a nonvaxxer?)

    Take a look at some of the comments under the provaxx articles in the washington post and you will read many comments that convey this message. It’s like some people really believe that vaccines only work if everyone takes them, and some of them are willing to use state violence to achieve universal compliance. Such interesting times.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Adam Smith

    '...Some vaxxers really do seem to be concerned that an uninjected person somehow poses a threat to them and society, thus the push for universal jabbing and so called “vaccine passports”...'

    The whole thing long ago became some kind of political litmus test where one's position owes nothing to the actual facts of the situation and everything to one's political stance.

    Two friends of my wife got vaccinated; they both hate Trump. The other day I noticed two articles the gist of which was, 'everything we did was good and we need to keep doing it.' One was in The Nation; the other was in The Atlantic.

    The merits of any position aside, it's intellectually exasperating. How can one's perceptions of the severity of a disease be connected to one's politics?

    So if you're for vaccines, everyone has to be vaccinated; it's not a question of health policy, it's a matter of your side winning.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

  36. @The Alarmist
    @Alexander Turok

    You forgot the /sarc tag

    Replies: @Alexander Turok

    I meant to say it isn’t 100% effective.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @Alexander Turok

    It was better as sarcasm ;)

  37. @Alexander Turok
    @The Alarmist

    I meant to say it isn't 100% effective.

    Replies: @The Alarmist

    It was better as sarcasm 😉

  38. @Adam Smith
    @Colin Wright

    Good morning Mr. Wright,

    I hope this message finds you well.
    Sarcasm is often difficult to detect in a comment window.

    I was trying to point out that some people believe that nonvaxxed people are dangerous disease spreaders. (I believe that recently vaxxed people spread disease and should quarantine for about a month after each jab. I also believe that it is better and safer to catch a disease naturally while avoiding the unnecessary chemicals found in vaccines, some of which are known to be dangerous to our health and wellbeing.)

    Some vaxxers really do seem to be concerned that an uninjected person somehow poses a threat to them and society, thus the push for universal jabbing and so called “vaccine passports”. It's like a form of doublethink to have faith in the sacramental needle and to also be afraid that you can catch the disease from the unvaxxed heathens. (If vaccines work why should a vaxxer worry about catching that disease from a nonvaxxer?)

    Take a look at some of the comments under the provaxx articles in the washington post and you will read many comments that convey this message. It's like some people really believe that vaccines only work if everyone takes them, and some of them are willing to use state violence to achieve universal compliance. Such interesting times.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

    ‘…Some vaxxers really do seem to be concerned that an uninjected person somehow poses a threat to them and society, thus the push for universal jabbing and so called “vaccine passports”…’

    The whole thing long ago became some kind of political litmus test where one’s position owes nothing to the actual facts of the situation and everything to one’s political stance.

    Two friends of my wife got vaccinated; they both hate Trump. The other day I noticed two articles the gist of which was, ‘everything we did was good and we need to keep doing it.’ One was in The Nation; the other was in The Atlantic.

    The merits of any position aside, it’s intellectually exasperating. How can one’s perceptions of the severity of a disease be connected to one’s politics?

    So if you’re for vaccines, everyone has to be vaccinated; it’s not a question of health policy, it’s a matter of your side winning.

    • Agree: Adam Smith
    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Colin Wright


    So if you’re for vaccines, everyone has to be vaccinated; it’s not a question of health policy, it’s a matter of your side winning.
     
    Six months from now, Democrats will have leaped to some other virtue-signaling moral panic, forgetting this one; but twenty years from now, MAGA will still remember the Vaccine Terror.

    Democrats are scaring millions, for no substantial reason. The scared will not easily forget.

  39. @Twinkie
    @Almost Missouri


    AFAIK, these largely depend on the fact that the “vaccine” isn’t really a vaccine, but a phase-3 experimental emergency “gene therapy” (itself a euphemism for “random genetic alterations injected into you in the hope of a good outcome”).
     
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/03/17/covid-19-mrna-vaccines-are-not-gene-therapy-as-some-are-claiming/?sh=1f402d083d20

    The Covid-19 mRNA vaccines are not gene therapy because they are not designed to alter or change your genes in any way. The U.S. National Library of Medicine (NLM) describes gene therapy as a technique that “may allow doctors to treat a disorder by inserting a gene into a patient’s cells instead of using drugs or surgery.” For example, doctors may be able to either inactivate or replace a mutated gene that isn’t functioning properly or place a new gene in your body that will do something to combat a disease.

    A gene consists of DNA and serves as the “basic physical and functional unit of heredity,” according to the NLM. Messenger RNA, known as mRNA for short, is different from DNA. RNA stands for ribonucleic acid. DNA stands for deoxyribonucleic acid. DNA serves as the library for instructions to produce different proteins. When a cell wants to produce a protein, it uses the DNA to produce a copy of mRNA. That mRNA then serves as a blueprint for the protein that is built by the ribosomes in your cells. The DNA is in the nucleus of the cell. The ribosomes are not. Thus, the mRNA from a Covid-19 vaccine will not go into the nucleus but instead will simply go to the ribosomes, which in turn will manufacture the spike protein.
     
    For a more comprehensive explanation of how the Pfizer vaccine works and why it is not "gene therapy," see: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-are-not-vaccines-the-new-myth/

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Almost Missouri

    Thanks, Twinkie. There appears to be a push by Big Pharma’s marketing departments to bury the term “gene therapy” since it sounds scary and invites more regulatory oversight. Nevertheless, “gene therapy” is the term that has been used for years in the scientific literature for mRNA treatments until at least as recently as the month before COVID-19 came out. Is there a more accurate name for using genetic material for therapeutic purposes? I dunno, but the “gene therapy” name is already in use and on point, despite recent efforts to retcon it away.

    As for its purported safety, maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. It seems a little early to say. That’s why we normally have extensive trials, data collection and review, rather than this unprecedented “Emergency Use Authorization” with little effort to collect, track and analyze adverse effects. The history of science is replete with things that scientists assured everyone were safe up until the moment it turned out they were catastrophically wrong.

    And yes, I understand how the mRNA “vaccine” is supposed to work and why it is not supposed to affect the patient’s DNA. But if there is one overarching lesson of science (as opposed to Science!™), it is that we don’t know everything (as opposed to Science!™, which insists it is always the ultimate authority). We do know that DNA matters and that RNA works closely with it, but we think that it is not quite close enough cause collateral harm. Okay, but we’ve been wrong before, and the rushed nature of these treatments doesn’t inspire confidence.

    We’ve been here before, and before that. A little prudence and humility may be in order. Instead, no effort is being spared to impose the “vaccine” on everyone.

    And the unforeseen risks may already be presenting themselves…

    https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf

    • Thanks: Mark G.
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Almost Missouri


    Nevertheless, “gene therapy” is the term that has been used for years in the scientific literature for mRNA treatments
     
    The article you cited in this sentence states this as the very first sentence:

    In vitro–transcribed mRNA (IVT mRNA) is emerging as a new class of drug that has the potential to play a role in gene therapy that once was envisioned for DNA.1
     
    Indeed, the very title is, "mRNA: Fulfilling the Promise of Gene Therapy" and every citation in the article refers to "mRNA-based therapeutics" rather than gene therapy.

    And the unforeseen risks may already be presenting themselves…

    https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf
     
    First a little ad hominem. Dr. Classen is a notorious anti-vaxxer who has been making outlandish claims of vaccines (not just the Covid, but others) causing autism, diabetes, etc. His "research" has never been replicated by others and has been repeatedly debunked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Bart_Classen

    On top of that, he runs a company called "Classen Immunotherapies, Inc." that has sued unsuccessfully all the major vaccine companies for "patent infringement."

    Lastly, that journal "Microbiology & Infectious Disease" is considered a "predatory journal" and is not even indexed by PubMed.

    But if you want an actual point-by-point rebuttal of his article, read this: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/can-mrna-based-covid-19-vaccines-cause-prion-disease/

    I highlight the relevant portion below:

    So let’s look at the paper, which was published in an online journal, Microbiology & Infectious Diseases, and entitled “COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease“. Unsurprisingly, it’s an open access journal not indexed in PubMed that’s published by SciVision Publishers, which shows up in Beall’s list of predatory publishers. Is this a predatory publisher? I don’t know, as there is apparently not strong agreement whether it should be classified as such, but the fact that it’s not indexed in PubMed certainly suggests that, at the very least, it’s not very likely to be a quality journal.

    Deceptively, Classen writes this paper as though it were a real research paper, complete with hypothesis, experimental approach, results, and conclusions, starting with this fine bit of handwaving in the introduction:

    The advent of new vaccine technology creates new potential mechanisms of vaccine adverse events. For example, the first killed polio vaccine actually caused polio in recipients because the up scaled manufacturing process did not effectively kill the polio virus before it was injected into patients. RNA based vaccines offers special risks of inducing specific adverse events. One such potential adverse event is prion based diseases caused by activation of intrinsic proteins to form prions. A wealth of knowledge has been published on a class of RNA binding proteins shown to [sic] participating in causing a number of neurological diseases including Alzheimer’s disease and ALS. TDP-43 and FUS are among the best studied of these proteins [2].

    The Pfizer RNA based COVID-19 vaccine was approved by the US FDA under an emergency use authorization without long term safety data. Because of concerns about the safety of this vaccine a study was performed to determine if the vaccine could potentially induce prion based disease.
     
    The first rule of reading an introduction like this is simple: Always look up the reference cited, in this case, this article. In this case, the article is a review article that looks at RNA binding proteins (not mRNAs or RNAs) that have prion-like domains found in neurodegenerative diseases:

    Scouring the human genome with this algorithm enriches a select group of RNA-binding proteins harboring a canonical RNA recognition motif (RRM) and a putative prion domain. Indeed, of 210 human RRM-bearing proteins, 29 have a putative prion domain, and 12 of these are in the top 60 prion candidates in the entire genome. Startlingly, these RNA-binding prion candidates are inexorably emerging, one by one, in the pathology and genetics of devastating neurodegenerative disorders, including: amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), frontotemporal lobar degeneration with ubiquitin-positive inclusions (FTLD-U), Alzheimer’s disease and Huntington’s disease. For example, FUS and TDP-43, which rank 1st and 10th among RRM-bearing prion candidates, form cytoplasmic inclusions in the degenerating motor neurons of ALS patients and mutations in TDP-43 and FUS cause familial ALS.
     
    So right off the bat, I know that Classen’s rationale for making the claim that the COVID-19 vaccine can induce prion disease is very weak. He’s pointing to RNA binding proteins, not mRNAs or RNAs, and he’s using that as a rationale to imply that a vaccine that contains only lipid nanoparticles and mRNA can cause prion disease. How, you might wonder, did he do this?

    Let’s look at the methods section:

    Pfizer’s RNA based vaccine against COVID-19 was evaluated for the potential to convert TDP-43 and or FUS to their prion based disease causing states. The vaccine RNA was analyzed for the presence of sequences that can activate TDP-43 and FUS. The interaction of the transcribed spike protein with its target was analyzed to determine if this action could also activate TDP-43 and FUS.
     
    Wait, what?

    How did Classen “evaluate the potential to convert TDP-43 and or FUS to their prion based disease causing states.” No, seriously, exactly how did he do that? He doesn’t say. Sure, he claims to have “analyzed” the mRNA sequence encoding the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein that was used in the Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine to induce cells to encode the protein to be used as the vaccine’s antigen, but he didn’t say how he did that. Classen appears to be leading readers to believe that he did some sort of bioinformatics analysis of the nucleotide sequence of the mRNA used in Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine, but details matter. Nowhere is there a figure showing the alignments of the sequences that he allegedly found that can “activate” TDP-43 and FUS. Nowhere in the paper is a description of the specific algorithms used to produce these claimed “alignments”. Nowhere is there a description of the methodology used or the analysis of the “goodness of fit” for the sequences that he claims to have identified that align with prion “activating” proteins. Nowhere is there a description of the controls, such as normal RNA sequences that contain the relevant sequences, which are common, so common as to be ubiquitous.

    Instead, he engages in this bit of handwaving:

    Analysis of the Pfizer vaccine against COVID-19 identified two potential risk factors for inducing prion disease is [sic] humans. The RNA sequence in the vaccine [3] contains sequences believed to induce TDP-43 and FUS to aggregate in their prion based conformation leading to the development of common neurodegerative diseases. In particular it has been shown that RNA sequences GGUA [4], UG rich sequences [5], UG tandem repeats [6], and G Quadruplex sequences [7], have increased affinity to bind TDP-43 and or FUS and may cause TDP-43 or FUS to take their pathologic configurations in the cytoplasm. In the current analysis a total of sixteen UG tandem repeats (ΨGΨG) were identified and additional UG (ΨG) rich sequences were identified. Two GGΨA sequences were found. G Quadruplex sequences are possibly present but sophisticated computer programs are needed to verify these.
     
    Unfortunately, some of the papers cited by Classen show that what he is claiming, namely that the mRNA in the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine can induce TDP-43 and FUS to “go prion,” is basically impossible. For example, this paper points out that TDP-43 is an RBP that exists predominantly in the nucleus. As I pointed out the last time I took on the antivaccine claim that mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines can “reprogram your DNA”, the mRNA from the vaccine never makes it into the nucleus. Guess what? FUS is a nuclear RBP as well!

    So what we have here is a whole heck of a lot of speculation, with the finding of an obscure connection based on methodology that is not explained with anywhere near the level of rigor that a real molecular biologist or bioinformatics scientist would require to be convinced. Basically, Classen points to the mRNA sequence in the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine and finds sequences associated with the “prionization” of these proteins, while completely ignoring the known fact that these are nuclear proteins and that the mRNA in the COVID-19 vaccine remains in the cytoplasm. In fact, the whole idea that there are mRNAs that can behave like prions and induce misfolded proteins appears, if this recent review arguing for an expansion of the definition of prion is any indication, to be largely speculative and not yet firmly demonstrated at this time.

    Amusingly, Classen can’t resist adding one more layer to his speculation:

    The spike protein encoded by the vaccine binds angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), an enzyme which contains zinc molecules [8]. The binding of spike protein to ACE2 has the potential to release the zinc molecule, an ion that causes TDP-43 to assume its pathologic prion transformation [9].
     
    First, it’s a zinc ion that binds ACE2, not a “molecule”. “Dr.” Classen should really get some basic chemical terminology right if he wants to be taken seriously. Second, this is the purest speculation to claim that the spike protein will somehow result in the release of zinc from ACE2 that will then cause TDP-43 to “go prion”. Again, all you have to know to realize how much handwaving is involved here is to know that ACE2 is a cell surface receptor and TDP-43 is a nuclear protein. The two proteins aren’t even in the same compartment of the cell. Truly, Classen’s handwaving here is achieving sufficient velocity for him to lift off and fly like a bird!

    Of course, in his discussion, Classen also can’t resist the JAQing off (if you don’t know what that means, click here) portion of his handwaving speculation:

    Another related concern is that the Pfizer vaccine uses a unique RNA nucleoside 1-methyl-3′-pseudouridylyl (Ψ). According to FDA briefing documents, this nucleoside was chosen to reduce activation of the innate immune system [12]. RNA molecules containing this nucleoside will undoubtedly have altered binding [13]. Unfortunately, the effect on TDP-43, FUS and other RNA binding proteins is not published. The use of this nucleoside in a vaccine can potentially enhance the binding affinity of RNA sequences capable of causing TDP-43 and FUS to assume toxic configurations.
     
    Again, none of this matters because these proteins are not even in the same cellular compartment that the COVID-19 vaccine mRNA enters. That’s not all, though. Prion diseases are diseases of the central nervous system. These vaccines are injected into the muscle, and, even if Classen’s ideas were anything other than speculation pulled out of his nether regions about highly tenuous and, yes, speculative associations, COVID-19 vaccines aren’t injected into the central nervous system.
     

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  40. @Colin Wright
    @Adam Smith

    '...Some vaxxers really do seem to be concerned that an uninjected person somehow poses a threat to them and society, thus the push for universal jabbing and so called “vaccine passports”...'

    The whole thing long ago became some kind of political litmus test where one's position owes nothing to the actual facts of the situation and everything to one's political stance.

    Two friends of my wife got vaccinated; they both hate Trump. The other day I noticed two articles the gist of which was, 'everything we did was good and we need to keep doing it.' One was in The Nation; the other was in The Atlantic.

    The merits of any position aside, it's intellectually exasperating. How can one's perceptions of the severity of a disease be connected to one's politics?

    So if you're for vaccines, everyone has to be vaccinated; it's not a question of health policy, it's a matter of your side winning.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    So if you’re for vaccines, everyone has to be vaccinated; it’s not a question of health policy, it’s a matter of your side winning.

    Six months from now, Democrats will have leaped to some other virtue-signaling moral panic, forgetting this one; but twenty years from now, MAGA will still remember the Vaccine Terror.

    Democrats are scaring millions, for no substantial reason. The scared will not easily forget.

  41. @Twinkie
    @V. K. Ovelund


    The problem, of course, is that too many experts in too many fields, including medicine, have prioritized political posturing above honest professional practice. Public trust has cratered.
     
    Absolutely. Trust in major institutions has collapsed and rightly so. They have lied and misled us. Moreover, everything is now politicized and tribal, and it’s nearly impossible to get unbiased information in public. If Trump says that the virus leaked from a Chinese lab, a third of the population treats anyone who suggests a man-made origin of the virus as a conspiracy-monger. If Fauci says the vaccine is generally effective and safe, another third of the population says it’s a deep state/big Pharma tool to control us.

    We are all on our own here and must rely on private information networks and our own reasoning capacity and education. For example, I don’t trust anything I read online about the pandemic and related healthcare issues unless I clear it with my wife and her colleagues as well as some of my work acquaintances. She and I also rely on friends with even deeper expertise such as an MD-Ph.D. who is a researcher at NIH (he had everyone in his family vaccinated as soon as possible including the youngest child who is in the 12-15 group - got the first dose and is awaiting the second).

    do you see any significant benefit of COVID vaccination to persons who have already naturally contracted, and recovered from, the disease?
     
    I think that depends on when you had the illness. For the first several months after recovering, your immune response is usually very strong. Thereafter it would decline. I would think after about year or so, it would be pretty weak. Also, the severity of the past illness might be a factor. I’ve read one research that seems to suggest that one dose boosts immunity very strongly for the previously ill and the second dose doesn’t add much value.

    If it were me, I’d receive the vaccination.

    I actually suspect that my wife and I both had COVID in the winter of 2019-2020. We both came down with an unusual flu-like illness (my wife tested positive for the flu, I tested negative) - we hadn’t had the flu in years and have vaccinated against it yearly. The oldest of our children was also mildly sick while the rest had no symptom.

    My wife likely brought it from the hospital where it went through entire floors quickly. That winter her staff had the worst absenteeism from “the flu” in living memory. Everyone there said that it was the worst flu season there ever. It was also at the same time period when a local nursing home also had an outbreak of a mystery respiratory illness that killed a number of the residents.

    Unfortunately we never had the antibody testing done to confirm. I wish we had.

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @nebulafox

    >We are all on our own here and must rely on private information networks and our own reasoning capacity and education. For example, I don’t trust anything I read online about the pandemic and related healthcare issues unless I clear it with my wife and her colleagues as well as some of my work acquaintances. She and I also rely on friends with even deeper expertise such as an MD-Ph.D. who is a researcher at NIH (he had everyone in his family vaccinated as soon as possible including the youngest child who is in the 12-15 group – got the first dose and is awaiting the second).

    >If it were me, I’d receive the vaccination.

    OK.

  42. @nebulafox
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Update from the previous thread: I never knew how much the US semiconductor industry relied on Taiwan. Always knew it was important, but damn! Up to 90%?!

    This is dangerous. Even if we had a functioning administration ready to act immediately, without any regard for private interests, to America's long term health-fat chance of that happening-it would take years to rebuild up what we'd need... and the PRC might try to act before that's achieved. Not to mention, Xi's in his late 60s. If he wants to be the man to bring Taiwan back home to the motherland, the clock is ticking.

    All I can say is that I really hope the pain of the next decade forever scars into the American consciousness the important of not cutting corners on vital supplies and always being prepared for the worst.

    Replies: @anon, @Colin Wright, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Audacious Epigone

    Update from the previous thread: I never knew how much the US semiconductor industry relied on Taiwan. Always knew it was important, but damn! Up to 90%?!

    Then there’s South Korea, who produced something like 65% of the world’s memory chips in 2020.

    I mean, no sweat right? Their geostrategic situation is far better than Taiwan’s.

    • Replies: @anon
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    https://finviz.com/quote.ashx?t=mu

    , @nebulafox
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    >I mean, no sweat right? Their geostrategic situation is far better than Taiwan’s.

    It is.

    The ROKA can handle anything the DPRK can throw at it and then utterly crush them. Seoul is as prepared as a megacity of that size is ever going to be for an artillery attack, between universal conscription, an extensive subway system that can be converted into emergency bomb shelters, and the sheer degree of defenses that stretch up from the city toward the DMZ along the route through Dongducheon. That's why the Norks developed nukes, which the South will immediately do should the US nuclear shield look like it'll seriously slip for a second.

    Taiwan's ideological opponent from the civil war days, by contrast, controls the world's largest population, second largest economy, and isn't so visibly psychotic that it immediately alienates everyone else in the world.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

  43. @The Wild Geese Howard
    @nebulafox


    Update from the previous thread: I never knew how much the US semiconductor industry relied on Taiwan. Always knew it was important, but damn! Up to 90%?!
     
    Then there's South Korea, who produced something like 65% of the world's memory chips in 2020.

    I mean, no sweat right? Their geostrategic situation is far better than Taiwan's.

    Replies: @anon, @nebulafox

  44. @Yellowface Anon
    As I said on Anatoly Karlin's thread on the correlation between IQ and "antivaxx" sentiments,

    Rather than to strive for the reversion to a “normal” life with its late-modern social and cultural decadence (like what Florida and Texas are doing now), it might be a better strategy for the diehard antivaxxer to establish a “savage” lifestyle out of their exclusion from formal social institutions, with its full set of economic and social structures, so they can compete with the Huxleyan “New Normal” – that’s the goal agorists have recognized a long time ago. The perquisite of this is individuals’ awakened determination (覺悟) to cleanly detach from his/her past lives.
     
    Better to find some meaning outside than trying to get back in.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Barbarossa, @Alexander Turok

    That is my and my family’s intention in a nutshell. Their are plenty of independent, Amish, or Mennonite businesses that haven’t worried about any of NY’s mandates. We’ve chosen to patronize them even more than we were, and will continue to do so. I’d rather give my money to them anyhow.

    So, I’m not too concerned even if they do get more coercive with vaccine mandates.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Barbarossa

    Not just patronizing them, but getting a "Amish-lite" lifestyle based on ultra-trad values and opposition to the "oppressive" mainstream, and pass it to your children.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    , @nebulafox
    @Barbarossa

    >So, I’m not too concerned even if they do get more coercive with vaccine mandates.

    Not everybody has that kind of flexibility to go off the grid. If you need the vaccination card to have or keep a job, you need the money, and you don't have a social network to rely on, what are you going to do?

    I don't think it'll get that bad. But you always prepare for the worst.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

  45. @Barbarossa
    @Yellowface Anon

    That is my and my family's intention in a nutshell. Their are plenty of independent, Amish, or Mennonite businesses that haven't worried about any of NY's mandates. We've chosen to patronize them even more than we were, and will continue to do so. I'd rather give my money to them anyhow.

    So, I'm not too concerned even if they do get more coercive with vaccine mandates.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @nebulafox

    Not just patronizing them, but getting a “Amish-lite” lifestyle based on ultra-trad values and opposition to the “oppressive” mainstream, and pass it to your children.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @Yellowface Anon

    Well, I have a big beard, 5 kids, land in the middle of nowhere, a flip phone, no TV, and my own business! All I need to do is get some suspenders, shave off the moustache, and trade my 20+ year old vehicles for a horse and buggy.
    Only five kids at 35 might raise some suspicions though...
    In all seriousness, I get along quite well with the Amish and Mennonite communities around here. Once they figure out you are not a foul mouthed, meth head, porn addict, they are mostly really great to be around.
    If you can find like minded people, I would advise doing so. It's not even so much about geography as it is urban vs. rural. I'm in rural New York, and I'm not particularly affected by downstate policies. It pays to be a backwater, I think, and far from the eyes of power

  46. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Yellowface Anon


    And this means alternatives are needed, and that in the US means agorism, agrarianism and local production, which builds independence from formal institutions.
     
    Are there any good examples of this, ever, anywhere, though?

    National production is one thing, but local production just does not produce enough.

    @Mulga Mumblebrain


    I do have the increasing impression that this pandemic was very carefully planned. The clincher is the manner in which cheap, very safe, medications like HCQ and ivermectin have been so fanatically slandered and their use repressed. That is either diabolical Big Pharma greed, or something far worse.
     
    I do not understand why more prosaic explanations do not suit. Does it have to have been a preplanned conspiracy?

    With respect to Ron Unz, I find his observations regarding foreknowledge of the pandemic unconvincing. I don't find the other conspiracies convincing, either, when more straightforward explanations conjoined with opportunistic political posturing seem to suffice.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @dfordoom

    National production is one thing, but local production just does not produce enough.

    It won’t in any industrial scale. But what does Schwab want but much less for the masses and a smaller masses at that? If the elites don’t want mass production for the common man, why should those below them ape for it?
    More scarcity, but more liberty and sovereignty both individually and communally.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
  47. Twinkie says:
    @Almost Missouri
    @Twinkie

    Thanks, Twinkie. There appears to be a push by Big Pharma's marketing departments to bury the term "gene therapy" since it sounds scary and invites more regulatory oversight. Nevertheless, "gene therapy" is the term that has been used for years in the scientific literature for mRNA treatments until at least as recently as the month before COVID-19 came out. Is there a more accurate name for using genetic material for therapeutic purposes? I dunno, but the "gene therapy" name is already in use and on point, despite recent efforts to retcon it away.

    As for its purported safety, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It seems a little early to say. That's why we normally have extensive trials, data collection and review, rather than this unprecedented "Emergency Use Authorization" with little effort to collect, track and analyze adverse effects. The history of science is replete with things that scientists assured everyone were safe up until the moment it turned out they were catastrophically wrong.

    And yes, I understand how the mRNA "vaccine" is supposed to work and why it is not supposed to affect the patient's DNA. But if there is one overarching lesson of science (as opposed to Science!™), it is that we don't know everything (as opposed to Science!™, which insists it is always the ultimate authority). We do know that DNA matters and that RNA works closely with it, but we think that it is not quite close enough cause collateral harm. Okay, but we've been wrong before, and the rushed nature of these treatments doesn't inspire confidence.

    We've been here before, and before that. A little prudence and humility may be in order. Instead, no effort is being spared to impose the "vaccine" on everyone.

    And the unforeseen risks may already be presenting themselves...

    https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Nevertheless, “gene therapy” is the term that has been used for years in the scientific literature for mRNA treatments

    The article you cited in this sentence states this as the very first sentence:

    In vitro–transcribed mRNA (IVT mRNA) is emerging as a new class of drug that has the potential to play a role in gene therapy that once was envisioned for DNA.1

    Indeed, the very title is, “mRNA: Fulfilling the Promise of Gene Therapy” and every citation in the article refers to “mRNA-based therapeutics” rather than gene therapy.

    And the unforeseen risks may already be presenting themselves…

    https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf

    First a little ad hominem. Dr. Classen is a notorious anti-vaxxer who has been making outlandish claims of vaccines (not just the Covid, but others) causing autism, diabetes, etc. His “research” has never been replicated by others and has been repeatedly debunked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Bart_Classen

    On top of that, he runs a company called “Classen Immunotherapies, Inc.” that has sued unsuccessfully all the major vaccine companies for “patent infringement.”

    Lastly, that journal “Microbiology & Infectious Disease” is considered a “predatory journal” and is not even indexed by PubMed.

    But if you want an actual point-by-point rebuttal of his article, read this: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/can-mrna-based-covid-19-vaccines-cause-prion-disease/

    I highlight the relevant portion below:

    [MORE]

    So let’s look at the paper, which was published in an online journal, Microbiology & Infectious Diseases, and entitled “COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease“. Unsurprisingly, it’s an open access journal not indexed in PubMed that’s published by SciVision Publishers, which shows up in Beall’s list of predatory publishers. Is this a predatory publisher? I don’t know, as there is apparently not strong agreement whether it should be classified as such, but the fact that it’s not indexed in PubMed certainly suggests that, at the very least, it’s not very likely to be a quality journal.

    Deceptively, Classen writes this paper as though it were a real research paper, complete with hypothesis, experimental approach, results, and conclusions, starting with this fine bit of handwaving in the introduction:

    The advent of new vaccine technology creates new potential mechanisms of vaccine adverse events. For example, the first killed polio vaccine actually caused polio in recipients because the up scaled manufacturing process did not effectively kill the polio virus before it was injected into patients. RNA based vaccines offers special risks of inducing specific adverse events. One such potential adverse event is prion based diseases caused by activation of intrinsic proteins to form prions. A wealth of knowledge has been published on a class of RNA binding proteins shown to [sic] participating in causing a number of neurological diseases including Alzheimer’s disease and ALS. TDP-43 and FUS are among the best studied of these proteins [2].

    The Pfizer RNA based COVID-19 vaccine was approved by the US FDA under an emergency use authorization without long term safety data. Because of concerns about the safety of this vaccine a study was performed to determine if the vaccine could potentially induce prion based disease.

    The first rule of reading an introduction like this is simple: Always look up the reference cited, in this case, this article. In this case, the article is a review article that looks at RNA binding proteins (not mRNAs or RNAs) that have prion-like domains found in neurodegenerative diseases:

    Scouring the human genome with this algorithm enriches a select group of RNA-binding proteins harboring a canonical RNA recognition motif (RRM) and a putative prion domain. Indeed, of 210 human RRM-bearing proteins, 29 have a putative prion domain, and 12 of these are in the top 60 prion candidates in the entire genome. Startlingly, these RNA-binding prion candidates are inexorably emerging, one by one, in the pathology and genetics of devastating neurodegenerative disorders, including: amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), frontotemporal lobar degeneration with ubiquitin-positive inclusions (FTLD-U), Alzheimer’s disease and Huntington’s disease. For example, FUS and TDP-43, which rank 1st and 10th among RRM-bearing prion candidates, form cytoplasmic inclusions in the degenerating motor neurons of ALS patients and mutations in TDP-43 and FUS cause familial ALS.

    So right off the bat, I know that Classen’s rationale for making the claim that the COVID-19 vaccine can induce prion disease is very weak. He’s pointing to RNA binding proteins, not mRNAs or RNAs, and he’s using that as a rationale to imply that a vaccine that contains only lipid nanoparticles and mRNA can cause prion disease. How, you might wonder, did he do this?

    Let’s look at the methods section:

    Pfizer’s RNA based vaccine against COVID-19 was evaluated for the potential to convert TDP-43 and or FUS to their prion based disease causing states. The vaccine RNA was analyzed for the presence of sequences that can activate TDP-43 and FUS. The interaction of the transcribed spike protein with its target was analyzed to determine if this action could also activate TDP-43 and FUS.

    Wait, what?

    How did Classen “evaluate the potential to convert TDP-43 and or FUS to their prion based disease causing states.” No, seriously, exactly how did he do that? He doesn’t say. Sure, he claims to have “analyzed” the mRNA sequence encoding the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein that was used in the Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine to induce cells to encode the protein to be used as the vaccine’s antigen, but he didn’t say how he did that. Classen appears to be leading readers to believe that he did some sort of bioinformatics analysis of the nucleotide sequence of the mRNA used in Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine, but details matter. Nowhere is there a figure showing the alignments of the sequences that he allegedly found that can “activate” TDP-43 and FUS. Nowhere in the paper is a description of the specific algorithms used to produce these claimed “alignments”. Nowhere is there a description of the methodology used or the analysis of the “goodness of fit” for the sequences that he claims to have identified that align with prion “activating” proteins. Nowhere is there a description of the controls, such as normal RNA sequences that contain the relevant sequences, which are common, so common as to be ubiquitous.

    Instead, he engages in this bit of handwaving:

    Analysis of the Pfizer vaccine against COVID-19 identified two potential risk factors for inducing prion disease is [sic] humans. The RNA sequence in the vaccine [3] contains sequences believed to induce TDP-43 and FUS to aggregate in their prion based conformation leading to the development of common neurodegerative diseases. In particular it has been shown that RNA sequences GGUA [4], UG rich sequences [5], UG tandem repeats [6], and G Quadruplex sequences [7], have increased affinity to bind TDP-43 and or FUS and may cause TDP-43 or FUS to take their pathologic configurations in the cytoplasm. In the current analysis a total of sixteen UG tandem repeats (ΨGΨG) were identified and additional UG (ΨG) rich sequences were identified. Two GGΨA sequences were found. G Quadruplex sequences are possibly present but sophisticated computer programs are needed to verify these.

    Unfortunately, some of the papers cited by Classen show that what he is claiming, namely that the mRNA in the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine can induce TDP-43 and FUS to “go prion,” is basically impossible. For example, this paper points out that TDP-43 is an RBP that exists predominantly in the nucleus. As I pointed out the last time I took on the antivaccine claim that mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines can “reprogram your DNA”, the mRNA from the vaccine never makes it into the nucleus. Guess what? FUS is a nuclear RBP as well!

    So what we have here is a whole heck of a lot of speculation, with the finding of an obscure connection based on methodology that is not explained with anywhere near the level of rigor that a real molecular biologist or bioinformatics scientist would require to be convinced. Basically, Classen points to the mRNA sequence in the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine and finds sequences associated with the “prionization” of these proteins, while completely ignoring the known fact that these are nuclear proteins and that the mRNA in the COVID-19 vaccine remains in the cytoplasm. In fact, the whole idea that there are mRNAs that can behave like prions and induce misfolded proteins appears, if this recent review arguing for an expansion of the definition of prion is any indication, to be largely speculative and not yet firmly demonstrated at this time.

    Amusingly, Classen can’t resist adding one more layer to his speculation:

    The spike protein encoded by the vaccine binds angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), an enzyme which contains zinc molecules [8]. The binding of spike protein to ACE2 has the potential to release the zinc molecule, an ion that causes TDP-43 to assume its pathologic prion transformation [9].

    First, it’s a zinc ion that binds ACE2, not a “molecule”. “Dr.” Classen should really get some basic chemical terminology right if he wants to be taken seriously. Second, this is the purest speculation to claim that the spike protein will somehow result in the release of zinc from ACE2 that will then cause TDP-43 to “go prion”. Again, all you have to know to realize how much handwaving is involved here is to know that ACE2 is a cell surface receptor and TDP-43 is a nuclear protein. The two proteins aren’t even in the same compartment of the cell. Truly, Classen’s handwaving here is achieving sufficient velocity for him to lift off and fly like a bird!

    Of course, in his discussion, Classen also can’t resist the JAQing off (if you don’t know what that means, click here) portion of his handwaving speculation:

    Another related concern is that the Pfizer vaccine uses a unique RNA nucleoside 1-methyl-3′-pseudouridylyl (Ψ). According to FDA briefing documents, this nucleoside was chosen to reduce activation of the innate immune system [12]. RNA molecules containing this nucleoside will undoubtedly have altered binding [13]. Unfortunately, the effect on TDP-43, FUS and other RNA binding proteins is not published. The use of this nucleoside in a vaccine can potentially enhance the binding affinity of RNA sequences capable of causing TDP-43 and FUS to assume toxic configurations.

    Again, none of this matters because these proteins are not even in the same cellular compartment that the COVID-19 vaccine mRNA enters. That’s not all, though. Prion diseases are diseases of the central nervous system. These vaccines are injected into the muscle, and, even if Classen’s ideas were anything other than speculation pulled out of his nether regions about highly tenuous and, yes, speculative associations, COVID-19 vaccines aren’t injected into the central nervous system.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Twinkie

    Thanks again. I'll strike Dr. Classen off my list of concerns.

  48. @Twinkie
    @Almost Missouri


    Nevertheless, “gene therapy” is the term that has been used for years in the scientific literature for mRNA treatments
     
    The article you cited in this sentence states this as the very first sentence:

    In vitro–transcribed mRNA (IVT mRNA) is emerging as a new class of drug that has the potential to play a role in gene therapy that once was envisioned for DNA.1
     
    Indeed, the very title is, "mRNA: Fulfilling the Promise of Gene Therapy" and every citation in the article refers to "mRNA-based therapeutics" rather than gene therapy.

    And the unforeseen risks may already be presenting themselves…

    https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf
     
    First a little ad hominem. Dr. Classen is a notorious anti-vaxxer who has been making outlandish claims of vaccines (not just the Covid, but others) causing autism, diabetes, etc. His "research" has never been replicated by others and has been repeatedly debunked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Bart_Classen

    On top of that, he runs a company called "Classen Immunotherapies, Inc." that has sued unsuccessfully all the major vaccine companies for "patent infringement."

    Lastly, that journal "Microbiology & Infectious Disease" is considered a "predatory journal" and is not even indexed by PubMed.

    But if you want an actual point-by-point rebuttal of his article, read this: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/can-mrna-based-covid-19-vaccines-cause-prion-disease/

    I highlight the relevant portion below:

    So let’s look at the paper, which was published in an online journal, Microbiology & Infectious Diseases, and entitled “COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease“. Unsurprisingly, it’s an open access journal not indexed in PubMed that’s published by SciVision Publishers, which shows up in Beall’s list of predatory publishers. Is this a predatory publisher? I don’t know, as there is apparently not strong agreement whether it should be classified as such, but the fact that it’s not indexed in PubMed certainly suggests that, at the very least, it’s not very likely to be a quality journal.

    Deceptively, Classen writes this paper as though it were a real research paper, complete with hypothesis, experimental approach, results, and conclusions, starting with this fine bit of handwaving in the introduction:

    The advent of new vaccine technology creates new potential mechanisms of vaccine adverse events. For example, the first killed polio vaccine actually caused polio in recipients because the up scaled manufacturing process did not effectively kill the polio virus before it was injected into patients. RNA based vaccines offers special risks of inducing specific adverse events. One such potential adverse event is prion based diseases caused by activation of intrinsic proteins to form prions. A wealth of knowledge has been published on a class of RNA binding proteins shown to [sic] participating in causing a number of neurological diseases including Alzheimer’s disease and ALS. TDP-43 and FUS are among the best studied of these proteins [2].

    The Pfizer RNA based COVID-19 vaccine was approved by the US FDA under an emergency use authorization without long term safety data. Because of concerns about the safety of this vaccine a study was performed to determine if the vaccine could potentially induce prion based disease.
     
    The first rule of reading an introduction like this is simple: Always look up the reference cited, in this case, this article. In this case, the article is a review article that looks at RNA binding proteins (not mRNAs or RNAs) that have prion-like domains found in neurodegenerative diseases:

    Scouring the human genome with this algorithm enriches a select group of RNA-binding proteins harboring a canonical RNA recognition motif (RRM) and a putative prion domain. Indeed, of 210 human RRM-bearing proteins, 29 have a putative prion domain, and 12 of these are in the top 60 prion candidates in the entire genome. Startlingly, these RNA-binding prion candidates are inexorably emerging, one by one, in the pathology and genetics of devastating neurodegenerative disorders, including: amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), frontotemporal lobar degeneration with ubiquitin-positive inclusions (FTLD-U), Alzheimer’s disease and Huntington’s disease. For example, FUS and TDP-43, which rank 1st and 10th among RRM-bearing prion candidates, form cytoplasmic inclusions in the degenerating motor neurons of ALS patients and mutations in TDP-43 and FUS cause familial ALS.
     
    So right off the bat, I know that Classen’s rationale for making the claim that the COVID-19 vaccine can induce prion disease is very weak. He’s pointing to RNA binding proteins, not mRNAs or RNAs, and he’s using that as a rationale to imply that a vaccine that contains only lipid nanoparticles and mRNA can cause prion disease. How, you might wonder, did he do this?

    Let’s look at the methods section:

    Pfizer’s RNA based vaccine against COVID-19 was evaluated for the potential to convert TDP-43 and or FUS to their prion based disease causing states. The vaccine RNA was analyzed for the presence of sequences that can activate TDP-43 and FUS. The interaction of the transcribed spike protein with its target was analyzed to determine if this action could also activate TDP-43 and FUS.
     
    Wait, what?

    How did Classen “evaluate the potential to convert TDP-43 and or FUS to their prion based disease causing states.” No, seriously, exactly how did he do that? He doesn’t say. Sure, he claims to have “analyzed” the mRNA sequence encoding the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein that was used in the Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine to induce cells to encode the protein to be used as the vaccine’s antigen, but he didn’t say how he did that. Classen appears to be leading readers to believe that he did some sort of bioinformatics analysis of the nucleotide sequence of the mRNA used in Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine, but details matter. Nowhere is there a figure showing the alignments of the sequences that he allegedly found that can “activate” TDP-43 and FUS. Nowhere in the paper is a description of the specific algorithms used to produce these claimed “alignments”. Nowhere is there a description of the methodology used or the analysis of the “goodness of fit” for the sequences that he claims to have identified that align with prion “activating” proteins. Nowhere is there a description of the controls, such as normal RNA sequences that contain the relevant sequences, which are common, so common as to be ubiquitous.

    Instead, he engages in this bit of handwaving:

    Analysis of the Pfizer vaccine against COVID-19 identified two potential risk factors for inducing prion disease is [sic] humans. The RNA sequence in the vaccine [3] contains sequences believed to induce TDP-43 and FUS to aggregate in their prion based conformation leading to the development of common neurodegerative diseases. In particular it has been shown that RNA sequences GGUA [4], UG rich sequences [5], UG tandem repeats [6], and G Quadruplex sequences [7], have increased affinity to bind TDP-43 and or FUS and may cause TDP-43 or FUS to take their pathologic configurations in the cytoplasm. In the current analysis a total of sixteen UG tandem repeats (ΨGΨG) were identified and additional UG (ΨG) rich sequences were identified. Two GGΨA sequences were found. G Quadruplex sequences are possibly present but sophisticated computer programs are needed to verify these.
     
    Unfortunately, some of the papers cited by Classen show that what he is claiming, namely that the mRNA in the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine can induce TDP-43 and FUS to “go prion,” is basically impossible. For example, this paper points out that TDP-43 is an RBP that exists predominantly in the nucleus. As I pointed out the last time I took on the antivaccine claim that mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines can “reprogram your DNA”, the mRNA from the vaccine never makes it into the nucleus. Guess what? FUS is a nuclear RBP as well!

    So what we have here is a whole heck of a lot of speculation, with the finding of an obscure connection based on methodology that is not explained with anywhere near the level of rigor that a real molecular biologist or bioinformatics scientist would require to be convinced. Basically, Classen points to the mRNA sequence in the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine and finds sequences associated with the “prionization” of these proteins, while completely ignoring the known fact that these are nuclear proteins and that the mRNA in the COVID-19 vaccine remains in the cytoplasm. In fact, the whole idea that there are mRNAs that can behave like prions and induce misfolded proteins appears, if this recent review arguing for an expansion of the definition of prion is any indication, to be largely speculative and not yet firmly demonstrated at this time.

    Amusingly, Classen can’t resist adding one more layer to his speculation:

    The spike protein encoded by the vaccine binds angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), an enzyme which contains zinc molecules [8]. The binding of spike protein to ACE2 has the potential to release the zinc molecule, an ion that causes TDP-43 to assume its pathologic prion transformation [9].
     
    First, it’s a zinc ion that binds ACE2, not a “molecule”. “Dr.” Classen should really get some basic chemical terminology right if he wants to be taken seriously. Second, this is the purest speculation to claim that the spike protein will somehow result in the release of zinc from ACE2 that will then cause TDP-43 to “go prion”. Again, all you have to know to realize how much handwaving is involved here is to know that ACE2 is a cell surface receptor and TDP-43 is a nuclear protein. The two proteins aren’t even in the same compartment of the cell. Truly, Classen’s handwaving here is achieving sufficient velocity for him to lift off and fly like a bird!

    Of course, in his discussion, Classen also can’t resist the JAQing off (if you don’t know what that means, click here) portion of his handwaving speculation:

    Another related concern is that the Pfizer vaccine uses a unique RNA nucleoside 1-methyl-3′-pseudouridylyl (Ψ). According to FDA briefing documents, this nucleoside was chosen to reduce activation of the innate immune system [12]. RNA molecules containing this nucleoside will undoubtedly have altered binding [13]. Unfortunately, the effect on TDP-43, FUS and other RNA binding proteins is not published. The use of this nucleoside in a vaccine can potentially enhance the binding affinity of RNA sequences capable of causing TDP-43 and FUS to assume toxic configurations.
     
    Again, none of this matters because these proteins are not even in the same cellular compartment that the COVID-19 vaccine mRNA enters. That’s not all, though. Prion diseases are diseases of the central nervous system. These vaccines are injected into the muscle, and, even if Classen’s ideas were anything other than speculation pulled out of his nether regions about highly tenuous and, yes, speculative associations, COVID-19 vaccines aren’t injected into the central nervous system.
     

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Thanks again. I’ll strike Dr. Classen off my list of concerns.

  49. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Yellowface Anon


    And this means alternatives are needed, and that in the US means agorism, agrarianism and local production, which builds independence from formal institutions.
     
    Are there any good examples of this, ever, anywhere, though?

    National production is one thing, but local production just does not produce enough.

    @Mulga Mumblebrain


    I do have the increasing impression that this pandemic was very carefully planned. The clincher is the manner in which cheap, very safe, medications like HCQ and ivermectin have been so fanatically slandered and their use repressed. That is either diabolical Big Pharma greed, or something far worse.
     
    I do not understand why more prosaic explanations do not suit. Does it have to have been a preplanned conspiracy?

    With respect to Ron Unz, I find his observations regarding foreknowledge of the pandemic unconvincing. I don't find the other conspiracies convincing, either, when more straightforward explanations conjoined with opportunistic political posturing seem to suffice.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @dfordoom

    And this means alternatives are needed, and that in the US means agorism, agrarianism and local production, which builds independence from formal institutions.

    Are there any good examples of this, ever, anywhere, though?

    National production is one thing, but local production just does not produce enough.

    I agree.

    Isn’t agorism just another silly dream world offshoot of libertarianism?

    Agorism, agrarianism and local production sounds like hippie nonsense.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @dfordoom


    Agorism, agrarianism and local production sounds like hippie nonsense.
     
    Are or were there hippies in Australia?

    I was always under the impression that hippyism was a German-Scandinavian thing of California, where (as Steve Sailer once observed) the winter weather is too warm for a maypole.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  50. @dfordoom
    @V. K. Ovelund



    And this means alternatives are needed, and that in the US means agorism, agrarianism and local production, which builds independence from formal institutions.
     
    Are there any good examples of this, ever, anywhere, though?

    National production is one thing, but local production just does not produce enough.
     
    I agree.

    Isn't agorism just another silly dream world offshoot of libertarianism?

    Agorism, agrarianism and local production sounds like hippie nonsense.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    Agorism, agrarianism and local production sounds like hippie nonsense.

    Are or were there hippies in Australia?

    I was always under the impression that hippyism was a German-Scandinavian thing of California, where (as Steve Sailer once observed) the winter weather is too warm for a maypole.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @V. K. Ovelund


    Are or were there hippies in Australia?
     
    Yes, lots. We still have them.

    We've had all the subcultures. We had Mods in the 60s. We had hippies. We had punks. We had goths.

    Our hippies were pretty similar to your hippies since they were also associated with the anti-Vietnam War movement.

    We even had a kind of late 1950s counter-culture. It was known as the Push. Germaine Greer was probably the most famous product of the Push.

    You have to remember that most of the factors that drove the counter-culture were not just American things - there was a reaction against the conformism, the materialism and the consumerism of the 50s throughout the Anglosphere.
  51. @The Wild Geese Howard
    @nebulafox


    Update from the previous thread: I never knew how much the US semiconductor industry relied on Taiwan. Always knew it was important, but damn! Up to 90%?!
     
    Then there's South Korea, who produced something like 65% of the world's memory chips in 2020.

    I mean, no sweat right? Their geostrategic situation is far better than Taiwan's.

    Replies: @anon, @nebulafox

    >I mean, no sweat right? Their geostrategic situation is far better than Taiwan’s.

    It is.

    The ROKA can handle anything the DPRK can throw at it and then utterly crush them. Seoul is as prepared as a megacity of that size is ever going to be for an artillery attack, between universal conscription, an extensive subway system that can be converted into emergency bomb shelters, and the sheer degree of defenses that stretch up from the city toward the DMZ along the route through Dongducheon. That’s why the Norks developed nukes, which the South will immediately do should the US nuclear shield look like it’ll seriously slip for a second.

    Taiwan’s ideological opponent from the civil war days, by contrast, controls the world’s largest population, second largest economy, and isn’t so visibly psychotic that it immediately alienates everyone else in the world.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    @nebulafox


    The ROKA can handle anything the DPRK can throw at it and then utterly crush them.
     
    You don't believe the CCP will back the DPRK?

    Interesting.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  52. @Barbarossa
    @Yellowface Anon

    That is my and my family's intention in a nutshell. Their are plenty of independent, Amish, or Mennonite businesses that haven't worried about any of NY's mandates. We've chosen to patronize them even more than we were, and will continue to do so. I'd rather give my money to them anyhow.

    So, I'm not too concerned even if they do get more coercive with vaccine mandates.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @nebulafox

    >So, I’m not too concerned even if they do get more coercive with vaccine mandates.

    Not everybody has that kind of flexibility to go off the grid. If you need the vaccination card to have or keep a job, you need the money, and you don’t have a social network to rely on, what are you going to do?

    I don’t think it’ll get that bad. But you always prepare for the worst.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    @nebulafox

    I completely agree with your statement, and I should revise my own; that I'm concerned in a big picture sense and I am not indifferent that there are a lot of people who do not have the options that I have.
    I'm just not concerned with my own life and my families' being modified unduly, since I largely already headed for the off-ramp years ago.
    I must say though that I am feeling a little bit vindicated at my "insane", as part of my family saw it,
    decisions to marry young, forgo college, buy land, have 5 kids, and start a business.
    I hope more young people can make a similar go, because if they are tied down by debt, they are tied to the current system.

  53. @nebulafox
    @Barbarossa

    >So, I’m not too concerned even if they do get more coercive with vaccine mandates.

    Not everybody has that kind of flexibility to go off the grid. If you need the vaccination card to have or keep a job, you need the money, and you don't have a social network to rely on, what are you going to do?

    I don't think it'll get that bad. But you always prepare for the worst.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    I completely agree with your statement, and I should revise my own; that I’m concerned in a big picture sense and I am not indifferent that there are a lot of people who do not have the options that I have.
    I’m just not concerned with my own life and my families’ being modified unduly, since I largely already headed for the off-ramp years ago.
    I must say though that I am feeling a little bit vindicated at my “insane”, as part of my family saw it,
    decisions to marry young, forgo college, buy land, have 5 kids, and start a business.
    I hope more young people can make a similar go, because if they are tied down by debt, they are tied to the current system.

  54. @Yellowface Anon
    @Barbarossa

    Not just patronizing them, but getting a "Amish-lite" lifestyle based on ultra-trad values and opposition to the "oppressive" mainstream, and pass it to your children.

    Replies: @Barbarossa

    Well, I have a big beard, 5 kids, land in the middle of nowhere, a flip phone, no TV, and my own business! All I need to do is get some suspenders, shave off the moustache, and trade my 20+ year old vehicles for a horse and buggy.
    Only five kids at 35 might raise some suspicions though…
    In all seriousness, I get along quite well with the Amish and Mennonite communities around here. Once they figure out you are not a foul mouthed, meth head, porn addict, they are mostly really great to be around.
    If you can find like minded people, I would advise doing so. It’s not even so much about geography as it is urban vs. rural. I’m in rural New York, and I’m not particularly affected by downstate policies. It pays to be a backwater, I think, and far from the eyes of power

  55. @Yellowface Anon
    As I said on Anatoly Karlin's thread on the correlation between IQ and "antivaxx" sentiments,

    Rather than to strive for the reversion to a “normal” life with its late-modern social and cultural decadence (like what Florida and Texas are doing now), it might be a better strategy for the diehard antivaxxer to establish a “savage” lifestyle out of their exclusion from formal social institutions, with its full set of economic and social structures, so they can compete with the Huxleyan “New Normal” – that’s the goal agorists have recognized a long time ago. The perquisite of this is individuals’ awakened determination (覺悟) to cleanly detach from his/her past lives.
     
    Better to find some meaning outside than trying to get back in.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Barbarossa, @Alexander Turok

    Most anti-vaxxers are the type of personality liable to C-out if they find themselves inconvenienced in acquiring the latest Double Decker Obesity Sandwich from MacDonalds. Asking them to make a sacrifice for something greater than themselves is gonna be a fool’s errand, selfishness is the be-all and end-all.

  56. @V. K. Ovelund
    @dfordoom


    Agorism, agrarianism and local production sounds like hippie nonsense.
     
    Are or were there hippies in Australia?

    I was always under the impression that hippyism was a German-Scandinavian thing of California, where (as Steve Sailer once observed) the winter weather is too warm for a maypole.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Are or were there hippies in Australia?

    Yes, lots. We still have them.

    We’ve had all the subcultures. We had Mods in the 60s. We had hippies. We had punks. We had goths.

    Our hippies were pretty similar to your hippies since they were also associated with the anti-Vietnam War movement.

    We even had a kind of late 1950s counter-culture. It was known as the Push. Germaine Greer was probably the most famous product of the Push.

    You have to remember that most of the factors that drove the counter-culture were not just American things – there was a reaction against the conformism, the materialism and the consumerism of the 50s throughout the Anglosphere.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
  57. @nebulafox
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    >I mean, no sweat right? Their geostrategic situation is far better than Taiwan’s.

    It is.

    The ROKA can handle anything the DPRK can throw at it and then utterly crush them. Seoul is as prepared as a megacity of that size is ever going to be for an artillery attack, between universal conscription, an extensive subway system that can be converted into emergency bomb shelters, and the sheer degree of defenses that stretch up from the city toward the DMZ along the route through Dongducheon. That's why the Norks developed nukes, which the South will immediately do should the US nuclear shield look like it'll seriously slip for a second.

    Taiwan's ideological opponent from the civil war days, by contrast, controls the world's largest population, second largest economy, and isn't so visibly psychotic that it immediately alienates everyone else in the world.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    The ROKA can handle anything the DPRK can throw at it and then utterly crush them.

    You don’t believe the CCP will back the DPRK?

    Interesting.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Not if the DPRK strikes first, and that's going to be the only way it ever happens. China's relations with South Korea are cordial and have been for decades, whereas North Korea is akin to their Pakistan: they are stuck with them because of the nuclear question, not because they like them or view the world in the same way.

    Kim Jong Un, for his part, seems not to trust the Chinese like his father did. He was careful to sweep up anybody he perceived as being too under Beijing's influence during the purges surrounding his uncle, and part of the reason I suspect he was willing to talk to Putin and Trump was to diversify his options abroad. He's not stupid, whatever else he is. He knows that if US troops magically disappeared and the nuclear issue was resolved, China would be likely to figure out that a unified Korea under Seoul's control would likely sway into their sphere of influence, given Korean political culture's focus on the pre-1945 Japanese colonial period (an animosity that the CCP similarly encourages in their own body politic) over more relevant issues.

  58. @The Wild Geese Howard
    @nebulafox


    The ROKA can handle anything the DPRK can throw at it and then utterly crush them.
     
    You don't believe the CCP will back the DPRK?

    Interesting.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Not if the DPRK strikes first, and that’s going to be the only way it ever happens. China’s relations with South Korea are cordial and have been for decades, whereas North Korea is akin to their Pakistan: they are stuck with them because of the nuclear question, not because they like them or view the world in the same way.

    Kim Jong Un, for his part, seems not to trust the Chinese like his father did. He was careful to sweep up anybody he perceived as being too under Beijing’s influence during the purges surrounding his uncle, and part of the reason I suspect he was willing to talk to Putin and Trump was to diversify his options abroad. He’s not stupid, whatever else he is. He knows that if US troops magically disappeared and the nuclear issue was resolved, China would be likely to figure out that a unified Korea under Seoul’s control would likely sway into their sphere of influence, given Korean political culture’s focus on the pre-1945 Japanese colonial period (an animosity that the CCP similarly encourages in their own body politic) over more relevant issues.

  59. @nebulafox
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Update from the previous thread: I never knew how much the US semiconductor industry relied on Taiwan. Always knew it was important, but damn! Up to 90%?!

    This is dangerous. Even if we had a functioning administration ready to act immediately, without any regard for private interests, to America's long term health-fat chance of that happening-it would take years to rebuild up what we'd need... and the PRC might try to act before that's achieved. Not to mention, Xi's in his late 60s. If he wants to be the man to bring Taiwan back home to the motherland, the clock is ticking.

    All I can say is that I really hope the pain of the next decade forever scars into the American consciousness the important of not cutting corners on vital supplies and always being prepared for the worst.

    Replies: @anon, @Colin Wright, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Audacious Epigone

    Maybe John Cena’s pathetic groveling was about a little more than keeping a movie market open.

  60. @Twinkie
    @The Alarmist


    If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?
     
    I received two doses of the Pfizer vaccine as did my wife (she got hers much earlier as she runs a hospital). I am not afraid of an unvaccinated person next to me. What I am concerned about is two-fold: first, that the unvaccinated (esp. those with mild symptoms) will infect other unvaccinated people who are more vulnerable (old, immuno-compromised, etc.), esp. in places such as hospitals, and, second, that the virus will circulate around among the unvaccinated and mutate into more virulent and/or vaccine-resistant variants.

    That said, I am opposed to forcing people to vaccinate, on the grounds of personal liberty. I am also, however, not opposed to private entities making decisions on vaccinations such as hiring decisions, customers, etc. Liberty goes both ways.

    Also, people and businesses should be open about what their policies are and what they are doing, either way. For example, my wife knows another wife/mom who contracted COVID and then let one of her children continue to participate in an extracurricular activity with other children after lying about COVID status in her family. She made a false declaration to the facility hosting the activity that no one in her family had contracted COVID or had COVID symptoms in the past X weeks when she herself had it (she never isolated herself from her kids either). Her justification was that "Kids don't get it anyway" and "My kid is going crazy being cooped up at home and needs to burn off some energy." She almost bragged about how COVID didn't do much to her to my wife. She didn't rat this person out, but my wife did let other moms know quietly that there was someone lying about COVID status at the facility and then, in turn, received similar texts/emails from other moms (e.g. "I know who it is - she told me she had COVID and still brought her kid too").

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Audacious Epigone, @dfordoom

    I am also, however, not opposed to private entities making decisions on vaccinations such as hiring decisions, customers, etc. Liberty goes both ways.

    If an employee of an employer who requires a shot has adverse effects, is the employer on the hook for those effects?

    • Replies: @anon
    @Audacious Epigone

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/eeoc-says-employers-can-require-the-covid-19-vaccine/ar-BB1c1k6J

  61. @Twinkie
    @The Alarmist


    If the vaxxes are so safe and effective, why would a vaccinated person need to have any fear that the unvaxxed are around him or her?
     
    I received two doses of the Pfizer vaccine as did my wife (she got hers much earlier as she runs a hospital). I am not afraid of an unvaccinated person next to me. What I am concerned about is two-fold: first, that the unvaccinated (esp. those with mild symptoms) will infect other unvaccinated people who are more vulnerable (old, immuno-compromised, etc.), esp. in places such as hospitals, and, second, that the virus will circulate around among the unvaccinated and mutate into more virulent and/or vaccine-resistant variants.

    That said, I am opposed to forcing people to vaccinate, on the grounds of personal liberty. I am also, however, not opposed to private entities making decisions on vaccinations such as hiring decisions, customers, etc. Liberty goes both ways.

    Also, people and businesses should be open about what their policies are and what they are doing, either way. For example, my wife knows another wife/mom who contracted COVID and then let one of her children continue to participate in an extracurricular activity with other children after lying about COVID status in her family. She made a false declaration to the facility hosting the activity that no one in her family had contracted COVID or had COVID symptoms in the past X weeks when she herself had it (she never isolated herself from her kids either). Her justification was that "Kids don't get it anyway" and "My kid is going crazy being cooped up at home and needs to burn off some energy." She almost bragged about how COVID didn't do much to her to my wife. She didn't rat this person out, but my wife did let other moms know quietly that there was someone lying about COVID status at the facility and then, in turn, received similar texts/emails from other moms (e.g. "I know who it is - she told me she had COVID and still brought her kid too").

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Audacious Epigone, @dfordoom

    I am also, however, not opposed to private entities making decisions on vaccinations such as hiring decisions, customers, etc. Liberty goes both ways.

    I assume you’d also be quite OK with private entities refusing to employ you because of your political beliefs? Or refusing to employ you because you’re a Christian?

  62. @Audacious Epigone
    @Twinkie

    I am also, however, not opposed to private entities making decisions on vaccinations such as hiring decisions, customers, etc. Liberty goes both ways.

    If an employee of an employer who requires a shot has adverse effects, is the employer on the hook for those effects?

    Replies: @anon

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