The Unz Review • An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersAudacious Epigone Blog
The Politics of Peaceful Parenting
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

Peaceful parenting is slowly but steadily gaining acceptance:

There is no greater power disparity than that which exists between parent and child. An abused wife can leave her abusive husband and take most of his stuff on the way out. An abused drug pusher can turn his contentious encounter with the police into a winning lottery ticket. But an abused toddler has nowhere to go, no one to turn to. A parent is a child’s custodian, not his owner. Hitting any person other than one’s own child is battery. If it doesn’t get the assailant killed, it will get him cuffed.

That it is done behind closed doors hardly grants it justifiability. To the contrary, if a parent is worried what the neighbors will think about the severity of the physical punishment he dishes out to his child, what’s going through the mind of the helpless child on the receiving end? That might makes right, and when he’s mightier than dad, dad can go pound sand, that’s what.

Relatedly, parents who put their children in daycare have no leg to stand on when their adult children ship them off to a nursing home to deteriorate in their dotage. Mom chose work when the kids needed her. Is it not natural, then, for the kids to choose work when she needs them? You reap what you sow.

To the objection kids these days are going off the rails on account of a spared rod, fair enough. But a shepherd’s rod isn’t used to hit his sheep, it’s used to guide them and protect them from wolves. With the perpetual rise in single-parent households and decline in homemaking as dual incomes have become increasingly necessary to materially support a family, parental neglect is a large and growing problem. Instead of mom and dad transmitting norms and values to their kids, the kids are being raised by the wolves in their internet devices.

GSS variables used: SPANKING(3-4), YEAR, POLVIEWS(1-3)(4)(5-7)

 
• Category: Culture/Society, Ideology • Tags: Ethics and Morals, GSS, Parenting 
Hide 103 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
    []
  1. It’s a spanking, not a duelling scar. Relax.

    Kids are pre-rational. Pain conveys a message. So does humiliation. It’s really not a big deal.

  2. songbird says:

    I don’t know about hitting little kids, but I suspect that it would benefit some adults and teenagers to be hit.

    Would those two black girls have killed that Uber Eats driver in DC, if they attended an all girls school where nuns used the yardstick to dole out punishment? I wonder…

    • Thanks: JohnnyWalker123
  3. @songbird

    Those girls probably got beat, but the beatings likely weren’t connected to any nun-based morality. Guidance was probably the bigger thing missing. Of course, punishment for moral misdeeds along the way, rather than whatever stuff gets black kids beat by their Mom these days.

    Then again, Stalin got beat black and blue by his Mother.

    It comes down to parents and messages and manners, of course.

    • Replies: @unit472
  4. Like some others, this subject is a continuum. Fortunately, the results clarify that they are referring to a “good hard spanking,” rather than just a spanking of unspecified severity.

    Parenting, like walking, breathing and teaching, is something humans have been doing naturally as long as they have existed. We didn’t get here by instructing people how to walk, breathe, teach — or guide their own children.

    Unfortunately, corporal punishment is ripe with opportunities for abuse. What might just be a light spank of an unruly child in one situation could be a severe whipping and degradation by a violent asshole in another.

    The only time my father came at me with a belt, he was drunk and I was five years old. The only thing I learned then is that drunks can turn on you and to be very careful around them, even if they are your parents and you are five years old. That event changed forever my relationship with my father.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Rosie
  5. the use or nonuse of physical discipline is not about its punitive violent character (except in cases where the degree of violence is truly exceptional). what matters far more is whether the spanking is done in the interest of child development (dont touch that hot stove! dont run out into traffic!), or whether it is the result of a parent losing their shit over an entirely unrelated matter and taking it out on the kid.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  6. Rosie says:

    Mom chose work when the kids needed her.

    This is uncharacteristically simplistic, AE, for all sorts of reasons. You admit in the next paragraph that two incomes are often necessary to raise a family, but you single women out all the same. I have already gone into how the erosion of alimony puts stay at home moms at risk of a bleak future. A news flash: some fathers suck, and a woman’s income allows her to get her children away from men who suck.

    Of the majority of men who don’t suck, they are increasingly likely to lose their jobs and be unable to support the family alone. I am not saying mothers should work full-time, but this is a delicate issue that requires a careful balancing of risks and benefits and reasonable people can disagree.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  7. Rosie says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Unfortunately, corporal punishment is ripe with opportunities for abuse. What might just be a light spank of an unruly child in one situation could be a severe whipping and degradation by a violent asshole in another.

    I’m curious. Do you know why your father came at you with a belt? To me, the question is less one of severity than of justification. If a child is incorrigibly disobedient, there is a very real possibility of that child coming to harm as a result of that disobedience.

    If you have numerous children, it is almost impossible to do anything with them unless they are obedient. You have to know that, if you take them to the park and tell them to stay on the playground, they will stay on the playground. Otherwise, you can lose track of them in a matter of seconds while you’re kissing someone’s booboo or whatever.

    So the upshot is: Correct the disobedience, or you can’t go to the park.

    Anyway, I was just wondering if you have any knowledge of the circumstances, and, if so, whether that would make a difference.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  8. @Rosie

    First I would ask you: Would anything merit whipping a five-year old with a belt?

    [MORE]

    My parents were having another one of their fights, just as the family was sitting down to dinner. I had already witnessed many frightening, violent times between them, and I was afraid this would escalate. My father went outside to get out of it. (That was smart, and I wish he had done it more often.)

    I went outside and shouted at him to “stop it,” or “leave Mom alone,” or “shut up,” or something.

    Right or wrong, at a young age I instinctively sided with my mother, who, I realize in retrospect, was often wrong.

    Dad followed me inside and proceeded to whip me from behind my chair at the dinner table, while my mother and two sisters watched. I was terrified, but fortunately Dad was too drunk to realize his belt was mostly hitting the back of my chair.

    Was I wrong? Did I deserve that? Did my father need to do that?

    In the following years, my mother sometimes came at me, drunk, after Dad left the house, after another fight. I would go hide outside in the dark. In those instances, I did nothing at all to cause her to do that. It was sheer abuse.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  9. Rosie says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    First I would ask you: Would anything merit whipping a five-year old with a belt?

    Not merit, but mitigate.

    I’ve never used a belt, so I don’t really know how damaging it is, but I do know that spanking with an open hand doesn’t hurt very much, and there are some children who only understand pain. We know that roughly ~2% of the male population are psychopaths, and serious misconduct begins in childhood with abuse of siblings, bullying of other children, and cruelty to animals. If you don’t deal with it, you’re liable to lose your other children.

    Even setting aside extreme cases like that, current wisdom about child-rearing is heavily skewed to small families. Suppose you’re on a camping trip and one of your kids continues engaging in some unacceptable behavior. What do you do? Pack it up and go home, punishing all the children for the misconduct of one or two? That gets old real fast.

    I don’t know the answer, by the way. I just don’t think an absolute ban on corporal punishment would be a good idea, for a number of reasons. That’s not to say that there shouldn’t be oversight and accountability, of course.

  10. Daniel H says:

    I hate bullies. To this day I resent all those who bullied me. I will not forgive, I will not forget. None of them.

  11. Daniel H says:

    One reason it’s so damn hard for mothers to stay home and tend to the family. I’ve been hearing crazy stories from friends in Florida that when they go to look at a house (this is not Miami or Naples but the hinterlands surrounding Orlando) a buyer appears with cash in the hand and closes the deal. They have no chance. This is happening en masse down there.

    Fed->easy money -> commercial banks -> private equity/hedge funds-> buying up residential real estate = families getting screwed. What a country.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/02/single-family-landlords-wall-street/582394/

    • Agree: Rosie
    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Alexander Turok
  12. @Rosie

    Thank you for this conversation, Rosie. I hope you did read past the “MORE” tag in my comment. Just click on it.

    Here is another one. Please click on it and read what follows:

    [MORE]

    I did not mean to imply that corporal punishment of children by their parents should be shunned or “banned” at all. Like you, “I don’t know the answer,” but I think human beings have naturally reared their children for as long as there have been human beings. I implied this at the very beginning of this conversation.

    Certainly this cannot be decided via legislation or any other government power. It is up to the parents. Only real abuse or damage, as defined by law, would apply, as it would to any adult. True violence and assault is already illegal, regardless of the age of the victim.

    Personally, I think a little smack now and then is normal. Just as I remember other kids eating dirt. Just as I remember my self and friends wading around in a drainage ditch, catching fish with our bare hands. Kids need to get dirty and rough around a bit.

    I fully agree that soft-pedaling, kid-gloving children — and adults — today only leads to weak people and disorder.

    At that park, you do what God and/or nature meant for you to do. You protect and teach your children. That is natural.

    What was done to me by my parents, and the things I witnessed them doing to each other, should not ever happen in the life of any child. I could recount things here to you that are so grotesque that they might not even pass whatever filter our host uses. It was that bloody and ridiculous. (Let me give you a clue: One time, when I was eleven years old, I saw my mother rip open my father’s scrotum, on my own bed, in my bedroom, while I was trying to stay away from them. —- Okay?)

    Back to normal now: Thank you for your comments. I appreciate them. I think your descriptions from experience are perfectly normal and applicable, just as I think you are doing what is naturally (God given?) to be done. A mother, if she is good, knows what to do with children. God bless you.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    , @Rosie
  13. Twinkie says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Would anything merit whipping a five-year old with a belt?

    Absolutely none. That is straight up child abuse. And I am sorry that you went through that. I can empathize because I was occasionally beaten by my parents.

    My mother punished me more often, but I never held a grudge toward her, because the punishment was quite ritualized and I understood why I was being punished. I also saw her cry afterwards and felt bad about causing that mental anguish in her. My father, on the other hand, beat me much less often, but when he did, he was not in control of his emotions. He lashed out and I remember those few beatings vividly. It took me a long time to forgive my father.

    I have used spanking for my younger children and I have two big rules. First, I don’t lash out right away. When there is a “hot” emotion involved, it is not a correction and is liable to become a violent outburst. I take some time for myself and administer the punishment later after both the child in question and I have had time to reflect. Second, I never use anything but my own hand. If I spank hard, I feel the pain myself on my palm. It’s self-limiting in a way. I am of the belief that using an object is generally not a good idea, because you cannot have sensitivity through an object whereas your own body part (such as a hand) will give you a feedback on the severity instantly.*

    *It’s for the same reason that most police departments do not allow officer to use hard objects such as batons to control and strangle the necks of resisting suspects. When you use your own arms to constrict the carotid artery, you can sense much more easily whether or not the suspect has gone unconscious and can immediately stop the compression of the artery. When you use something like a PR-24 baton, you are much more likely to continue to constrict it well after the suspect has been rendered unconscious and cause a very serious injury (e.g. stroke) or death.

    When I first saw that infamous Floyd/Chauvin video, what struck me in particular was that the office in question did not sit up the suspect after he was able to restrain and handcuff him. People fixate on the knee on the neck and, as bad as that looks visually (and it’s not something I would do to restrain someone), what was really damning to Chauvin was how he appeared to continue to compress Floyd’s neck (and his chest for that matter) long after Floyd was restrained. A properly trained officer who is in control of emotions would have immediately sat him on his buttocks once he was handcuffed behind his back.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  14. @Twinkie

    Thank you, Twinkie.

    What you say thus in particular is wise:

    Second, I never use anything but my own hand. If I spank hard, I feel the pain myself on my palm. It’s self-limiting in a way.

    I think your hand is much better, less traumatizing than using, say, a belt, as my parents did. Why? Because the belt, or any other threatening implement, is a weapon (and much more painful.)

    To a child, it is, quite frankly, terrifying. My father terrified me when he did that, which is why I so vividly remember it to this day. It is also why I worked so hard to escape my own mother on those nights. Your hand is part of you, and nature or God gave it to you, just as He gave you your child to teach. I think spanking is okay in that sense.

    • Thanks: Twinkie
  15. Yes, peaceful parenting. It sounds lovely to parents whose children (usually only one or two children) happen to respond to moderate correction. It sounds even better to nonparents.

    Wait till a delinquent six-year-old psychopathic hellion descends on your home. At six, he’s stealing the cookies. At ten, your credit card. Over and over and over again.

    Unlike his less rambunctious siblings, this one thinks moderate spanking hilarious.

    You’ll change your mind.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @Twinkie
  16. @V. K. Ovelund

    Oh, how could I forget: what about the boy who finds an old rod of steel rebar in the yard, decapitates your poultry with it, and, satisfied with that work, whistles it in a great, swinging arc within a few inches of his little sister’s head?

    AE, with respect, but for once you have no idea what you are talking about. Such a defiant boy might grow up to be a leader of men if he survives his childhood and can handle the ramifications of the fifteen-year-old girl he has impregnated when he is sixteen-and-a-half, but sparing the rod does neither the boy nor anyone else any favors.

    Consider a young Donald J. Trump…. Oh, never mind. You don’t understand.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  17. @Rosie

    there are some children who only understand pain

    Millions of years of frontal cortex development and you’re going to have a few of these in a population, I guess. Since they “only” understand pain, they don’t understand language. Can you describe a few of these retrograde subhumans you’ve come in contact with?

    • LOL: Twinkie
    • Replies: @Rosie
  18. Can safely say I’ve never needed to hit my daughters, in spite of my psychopathic contempt for women. Anyone who feels the need to take a switch to their children is no better than a negro.

    Children respond to charisma, willpower, and force of character. You essentially need to first be a Napoleonic type of strong male energy, and the rest flows quite naturally. You essentially need to ‘mog’ them. Fear only goes so far, and is only temporary.

  19. @Buzz Mohawk

    “True violence and assault is already illegal”

    Apparently not. Recall the original post:
    “Hitting any person other than one’s own child is battery. If it doesn’t get the assailant killed, it will get him cuffed.”

    So it’s not illegal to batter your child. The state only steps in when abuse turns deadly.

    Should the state have no right to step in? I haven’t heard anti-anti-spanking people (since I don’t think any parent actually likes it, but some consider it a necessary evil) make this argument, but it then sets up a slippery slope. If you admit that sub-lethal abuse of children by spanking is prosecutable, what’s to stop an aggressive prosecutor from bankrupting parents who insist THEIR method of child-hitting is safe and effective? And you know that liberal prosecutors will use this against conservative parents.

    Better to simply ban the practice. Or let parents let fly.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
  20. @Rosie

    “What do you do? Pack it up and go home, punishing all the children for the misconduct of one or two? That gets old real fast.”

    And it works, as the child will get peer-directed hate. Do it once, and group norms enforce desired social behavior. Ostracism has worked for the Amish for years, and they seem to have held on to their culture.

    Worse than spanking is parental shunning, where disobedience makes you an unperson. Children hate that more than anything.

  21. unit472 says:
    @Boomthorkell

    There isn’t really a problem with an openly declared policy that includes reasonable physical punishment. The child will know if he does X he will reap Y. I occasionally was sent to my room to await the arrival of my father from work for him to mete out with his belt the punishment I had earned for my misbehavior.

    Where physical punishment becomes a problem is when the parent hits or whips a child because they themselves are enraged. The only ‘lesson’ a child learns from that is that it is OK to hurt someone smaller and weaker than you if they piss you off.

    • Agree: Boomthorkell
  22. As with anything, moderation is important. I can’t imagine ever hitting any of my kids with a belt or other object, but have utilized the swift swat to the behind when it’s appropriate and necessary.

    Some of my kids have never gotten a spanking since they are either extremely agreeable or require only verbal scolding to bring them back into line. Two of them have had extremely stubborn and insubordinate behavior’s pop up around 3 to 4. They required much more concerted correction, which in the cases of their willfulness putting themselves or their siblings in potential danger or extremely sustained defiance would sometimes bring a swift stinging swat.

    I feel it can be effective in certain situations at a particular age range where a bit of a shock is necessary to convey the point. Overuse would be a disaster though and eliminate any possible utility.

    As other’s have mentioned in a somewhat large family order has to be maintained for the good of all. I have 5 kids ranging in age from 1 to 13 and once the rules are ingrained it really becomes a bit of a self sustaining system. The older three are great (usually!) about taking care of the younger ones, helping with chores etc. The two youngest ones are what I call “random object relocaters”, they excel at that!

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @V. K. Ovelund
  23. Twinkie says:
    @Barbarossa

    a bit of a shock is necessary to convey the point

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
  24. Twinkie says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Wait till a delinquent six-year-old psychopathic hellion descends on your home. At six, he’s stealing the cookies. At ten, your credit card. Over and over and over again.

    Why wait six years? 😉

  25. @Barbarossa

    I have 5 kids ranging in age from 1 to 13 and once the rules are ingrained it really becomes a bit of a self sustaining system.

    The same worked for four of my five. Not the fifth.

    I observe that too many of us, especially AE on this particular topic, are falling into the fallacy of believing that what works for us will work for someone else. It doesn’t. It never has, it never will, and fellow citizens ought to mind their business.

    There is no way to fix the childhood of a child born into a bad home. It cannot be done. Such is the fallen world, but decent parents who deliver escalating discipline to certain children sometimes have an extremely good reason, which is not for you and me to question—for you and I do not have to deal with the consequences.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
  26. neutral says:

    Peaceful parenting does not mean you need to spawn brats. The SJWs that infest the USA and affiliated ZOG states, many of them are a product of being spoilt little shits.

  27. Rosie says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Yes I did read you’re whole comment and appreciated it very much.

    Sad to say, I can’t say I’m terribly surprised by what you’ve said. I have noticed that corporal punishment tends to escalate, and that’s why I’ve never used it much. A swat on the butt stings one day, but then the next day the child is desensitized to that, so you have to either escalate or make a new plan. Nevermind the fact that you can’t spank the child unless you can catch him. Good luck with that if you’re nursing. A disobedient child isn’t going to obey you when you tell him to come hither and sit still for a spanking.

    On the other hand, if another parent finds it effective as a last resort and can keep it under control and within appropriate limits, I won’t judge. It seems we agree on that.

    I have spent a lot of time thinking about parents like yours, trying to make sense of it. Sometimes I think maybe it has to do with people’s jobs. If you’re a coalminer in West Virginia or a roofer in Texas, I would imagine you would be pretty exhausted at the end of the day. If you’re all out of patience and unable to cope with children at the end of the day, maybe you could do worse than stopping by the tavern for a couple drinks every evening like my Grandfather used to do.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
  28. Rosie says:
    @TomSchmidt

    there are some children who only understand pain

    There are some children who only understand respond to pain.

    Happy now?

    And it works, as the child will get peer-directed hate.

    In theory, that should work, yes. Whether it does in fact work is another question. We’re not talking about normally sensitive children who care about others’ needs and interests but rather particularly difficult, inconsiderate,, and willful ones.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
  29. The Politics of Peaceful Parenting

    PPP lots of P’s

    Title better than Personal Protection Equipment or Politics Philosophy and Economics and their Bat Soup Fever and Oxford accompaniment.

    Virginia Quakers accepted that they came from violent blood stock and curbing the instinct to smash and crush in a willy-nilly manner was a major function of Virginia Quakerism — along with avoiding church taxes but that is rather too precise and mundane for our concerns.

    How about Producing Patriotic Spawn?

    Parenting that produces those suited to rule instead of to be ruled is the thing.

    It won’t take many such young to create a new ruling class for the American Empire.

    I wrote this in 2017 about parenting during the implosion of the American Empire:

    The American Empire is now at the point where it will make sociobiological sense for parents to refrain from indoctrinating their children into the decomposing managerial capitalist system. What does that mean? Who knows. It might mean that some smart parents who have ancestors who settled America in the 1600s will start to think in terms of raw power instead of wealth accumulation.

    The parents who perceive the rot in the American Empire might raise their children not to endure the anti-White nonsense that goes on in colleges and universities. These parents will raise their children in such a manner that the children will instinctively want to smash the managerial capitalist system much as the Normans smashed the power of Saxons in England in 1066.

    Some parents might correctly assume that the managers of the American Empire need to be fired and removed from power. These parents might also understand that the monetary extremism of the globalized central banks renders the capitalist portion of managerial capitalism null and void. There is no capitalism anywhere on the globe. The global financial system is just central banker shysterism.

    Universities and colleges in the American Empire are too far gone to be salvaged. They need to be shut down and have their land and faculty re-pastoralized. That re-pastoralization business is what some bitter Jews wanted to do to Germany after World War II.

    Power is everything. The power to print money and conjure money out of thin air is one of the ultimate forms of political power. The political power comes before the money power.

    Parents who raise their children to rule instead of to be ruled will be the ones in the future who control the political power in the American Empire.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/which-college-has-the-richest-graduates-the-richest-parents/#comment-1918076

  30. Rosie says:
    @Daniel H

    I’ve been hearing crazy stories from friends in Florida that when they go to look at a house (this is not Miami or Naples but the hinterlands surrounding Orlando) a buyer appears with cash in the hand and closes the deal. They have no chance.

    But don’t despair! Your friends can rent that place from the guy who just paid cash for it and work their lives away paying for his golf memberships or whatever it is he needs that rent money for.

  31. Realist says:
    @Daniel H

    I hate bullies. To this day I resent all those who bullied me. I will not forgive, I will not forget. None of them.

    With that, I agree. While growing up I experienced a very few occasions of attempted bullying…I say attempted because I found that a good, quick smack to the face ended that crap right away. Nip it in the bud.

  32. @V. K. Ovelund

    There really is no “one size fits all” approach. As I mentioned, out of my five kids one has to use different approaches to be effective.
    I’ve seen other families be successful with different approaches than myself.
    Personally, I feel that not striking children with anything but the hand is a good line to have.
    My parents did use a paddle occasionally, and while it certainly didn’t affect me adversely in any way, I’ve chosen to be a bit less free with corporal punishment in my own family.

    It really does make me mad though that we live in a world where I have to worry about some busybody calling CPS if I’m seen giving a judicious swat. It’s a stupid and judgemental world out there.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
  33. @Twinkie

    How did they get that video of me parenting? I mean, are there people who don’t do that stuff to teach their kids valuable life lessons?!

  34. Love this post. Also, let children play. Let children experiment. Let them be weird. Provide secure attachment regardless. They’ll be fine if you can allow them that.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  35. Dutch Boy says:
    @Daniel Williams

    True. I am just grateful that I didn’t get it every time I deserved it!

  36. @Supply and Demand

    It’s good that you have so much respect for their stepfather, to use such bold language in describing him. I wonder why your ex-wife ever chose you, when she was capable of attracting a Napoleonic personality.

    • Replies: @Supply and Demand
  37. @Daniel H

    To this day I resent all those who bullied me. I will not forgive, I will not forget.

    That sounds like a great recipe for long-term happiness and peace of mind.

  38. @Rosie

    There are some children who only respond to pain.

    Happy now?

    I’d be happier if you could produce one for me so I could study it and write it up and become famous for my brilliance at discovery in science. You could have second billing on the paper.

    We’re not talking about normally sensitive children who care about others’ needs and interests but rather particularly difficult, inconsiderate,, and willful ones.

    In other words, boys.

    Social control works better on girls, I’ll grant you. Effective leadership is required with boys or you do get Lord of the Flies, and quick. With leadership, Western Civilization. That willfulness turns out to be a feature, not a bug.

  39. @Barbarossa

    Personally, I feel that not striking children with anything but the hand is a good line to have.

    I think you could convince anti-spanking activists to accept this if you added not hand, but palm. You surely don’t mean to let a parent use a fist. The infliction of pain on the spanking dispenser is a natural governor on the ability to inflict permanent harm on the child, physically.

    My parents did use a paddle occasionally, and while it certainly didn’t affect me adversely in any way
    You literally cannot know this. I’d argue it’s wrong: it turned you off to using anything but your hand. Good for you: you made a moral judgment, and it was the correct one.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @Barbarossa
  40. @Rosie

    I have noticed that corporal punishment tends to escalate, and that’s why I’ve never used it much. A swat on the butt stings one day, but then the next day the child is desensitized to that, so you have to either escalate or make a new plan. Nevermind the fact that you can’t spank the child unless you can catch him.

    Weds of wisdom, Rosie, I thought worthy of highlighting.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  41. A123 says:

    For anyone who has not read Heinlein’s Starship Troopers, there is a good chunk on raising children. I will quote some of the the relevant text below [MORE].

    https://www.readbooksol.com/Starship_Troopers/22.html

    https://www.readbooksol.com/Starship_Troopers/23.html

    PEACE 😇

    [MORE]

    Let’s get back to those juvenile criminals. The most vicious averaged somewhat younger than you here in this class . . . and they often started their lawless careers much younger. Let us never forget that puppy. These children were often caught; police arrested batches each day. Were they scolded? Yes, often scathingly. Were their noses rubbed in it? Rarely. News organs and officials usually kept their names secret—in many places the law so required for criminals under eighteen. Were they spanked? Indeed not! Many had never been spanked even as small children; there was a widespread belief that spanking, or any punishment involving pain, did a child permanent psychic damage.”

    The usual sequence was: for a first offense, a warning—a scolding, often without trial. After several offenses a sentence of confinement but with sentence suspended and the youngster placed on probation. A boy might be arrested many times and convicted several times before he was punished—and then it would be merely confinement, with others like him from whom he learned still more criminal habits. If he kept out of major trouble while confined, he could usually evade most of even that mild punishment, be given probation—‘paroled’ in the jargon of the times.

    “This incredible sequence could go on for years while his crimes increased in frequency and viciousness, with no punishment whatever save rare dull-but-comfortable confinements. Then suddenly, usually by law on his eighteenth birthday, this so-called ‘juvenile delinquent’ becomes an adult criminal—and sometimes wound up in only weeks or months in a death cell awaiting execution for murder.”

    Mr. Dubois,” a girl blurted out, “but why? Why didn’t they spank little kids when they needed it and use a good dose of the strap on any older ones who deserved it—the sort of lesson they wouldn’t forget! I mean ones who did things really bad. Why not?”

    “I don’t know,” he had answered grimly, “except that the time-tested method of instilling social virtue and respect for law in the minds of the young did not appeal to a pre-scientific pseudo-professional class who called themselves ‘social workers’ or sometimes ‘child psychologists.’ It was too simple for them,

    Mr. Dubois then turned to me. “I told you that ‘juvenile delinquent’ is a contradiction in terms. ‘Delinquent’ means ‘failing in duty.’ But duty is an adult virtue—indeed a juvenile becomes an adult when, and only when, he acquires a knowledge of duty and embraces it as dearer than the self-love he was born with. There never was, there cannot be, a ‘juvenile delinquent.’ But for every juvenile criminal there are always one or more adult delinquents—people of mature years who either do not know their duty, or who, knowing it, fail.

    “And that was the soft spot which destroyed what was in many ways an admirable culture. The junior hoodlums who roamed their streets were symptoms of a greater sickness; their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of ‘rights’ . . . and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  42. @TomSchmidt

    You surely don’t mean to let a parent use a fist.

    I surely mean to mind my business.

    When I was 13, I beat my 8-year-old brother up, so my father beat me up. That was a good decision.

    My father and I get along great to this day.

    If that’s not for you, fine. I won’t question it, but I will not have some busybody who does not live in my home and does not have to deal with the consequences of actions within the home telling me, or anyone else, how to raise children that are not theirs.

    If my two grown sons were in the thread, they would agree with me, because after being raised in my home they know better.

    • Replies: @Chris Renner
    , @TomSchmidt
  43. @Daniel H

    I hear people complaining too about the fed’s easy money causing more people to get mortgages rather than buy outright, they can’t both be true.

    • Replies: @Daniel H
  44. @Chinese cuck

    You totally missed me with the logic on this one. They’re both mine. One is from myself and my ex-wife, the other is the daughter of my current wife and I. Both biological.

    Should we continue this 在说中文的同时, Mr. Cuck? You may be able to get your point across better.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  45. I believe that the peaceful parents in this thread honestly would like to help. However, insofar as help in the United States generally means intervention of the state’s Child Protective Services (CPS), I would suggest that the peaceful parents consider the practical array of remedies CPS is actually able to deploy with the tools at its disposal.

    If you look into the matter, I believe that you will discover that, nine times out of ten, CPS is only able to make a bad situation worse. If you doubt me, consider how few adults you know who have expressed gratitude toward CPS for past intervention during those adults’ own childhoods. Probably zero.

    Some troubles cannot be fixed.

  46. @V. K. Ovelund

    When I was 13, I beat my 8-year-old brother up, so my father beat me up. That was a good decision.

    This sort of thing is the reason I believe that corporal punishment needs to be on the table. One, it’s especially vital to boys – they’ll understand the pain of getting hit themselves much better than they’ll understand an abstract lecture about size differences and the Golden Rule.
    Two (again more applicable to boys) they don’t usually resent physical pain in the long run, when they know they had it coming.

    My two year old intentionally hit his 6-month-old brother in the face hard enough that the smaller boy cried, and there wasn’t possibly a better solution than what I did: calmly gave him 2 smacks to the face that were hard enough to hurt and soft enough not to do lasting damage.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    , @TomSchmidt
  47. Daniel H says:
    @Alexander Turok

    I hear people complaining too about the fed’s easy money causing more people to get mortgages rather than buy outright, they can’t both be true.

    They both can be true. Banks are not granting mortgages to borderline cases as they did 15 years ago. Most of the easy money is going to hedge funds/private equity that are buying up residential housing on a large scale. Outbidding the less capitally endowed. Easy Capital never sleeps. It is relentless in its pursuit of return. No matter that residential real estate has not been a customary domain. If Capital senses a profit they will sniff it out, damn the consequences for the rest of society.

  48. @Chris Renner

    In the same vein, a good friend of mine in his 80’s told the story of a similar confrontation with his older teenage son.
    The boy was about 15 of 16 and was really giving his mother an awful time. It had been an issue but came to a particular head one day when my friend had enough. He ordered his son to follow him behind the barn and told him in no uncertain terms that he would not have his wife disrespected that way. He told his son that if he wanted to treat his mother that way he was going to have to come through him.
    It never came to blows, but the son knew that his father was completely serious. The behavior cleared up when it was made clear how serious it was, and the boy (who is in his 50’s now) learned an important lesson about honor.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
  49. The niggardly savagery shown by many of the posters here in dealing with their own children is just more evidence that working class whites deserve a go at cotton pickin’ on the Jewish neo-feudal plantations too.

    Hopefully they’ll be enough Lifted Whites with diplomas to manage the chattel. Would hate to see blacks get the overseer jobs.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Chinese cuck
  50. @TomSchmidt

    Yes, I wouldn’t hit my kids with a closed fist. With the possible exception of a situation such as I retold in my response to Chris Renner.

    These questions on language make me reflect the language of the original polling in AE’s post. “A good hard spanking” could mean very different things to different people. I would personally hesitate a bit in answering that question, since I’m not sure that I would consider a smack on the bottom fit’s that bill or not. Or if it implies a sustained number of blows.
    It seems like a poorly worded question since it’s rather subjective. Has public understanding of what constitutes “a good hard spanking” even remained constant since 1986? I’m really not sure the data here is particularly useful, even though I’m sure just through personal observation that the overall trend is correct.

    As to whether I’m adversely affected by my childhood experience with Mr. Paddle…I would say that it was perhaps not entirely ideal and that I’ve tried to improve on it with my own children. However, I’m sure that despite my best intentions I will fail to provide my children a perfect environment. We all have some level of less than ideal circumstances in life but whether those things dog us in life is another matter entirely.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @TomSchmidt
  51. @Barbarossa

    Yes, I wouldn’t hit my kids with a closed fist.

    For what it’s worth, I never did hit a child with a closed fist, nor thought to do so, for I could never see how it might help; but I am certain that some parents here fail to grasp the decade-long hell through which a really bad kid can put his entire family. Those parents are too quick to judge a situation they do not understand.

    AE is not entirely right about the power disparity. Between a parent that cares and a kid that doesn’t, it may be the kid that has the advantage, after all.

    Juvenile Hall exists for a reason. If the parents in question knew some of the boys in there, they’d change their minds.

    Sometimes there exists no good answer. Meddling in someone else’s family in a circumstance like that is wrong and does not help.

  52. @Barbarossa

    A good example. I think one of the better sayings I’ve ever heard is “learn to control yourself, or someone else will do it for you.” there’s always someone bigger to lay a beating on you, and some behavior goes beyond the pale.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  53. @Chris Renner

    I’ve long been in favor of the use of a painful hand spank to prevent a larger casualty. To pretend that a 2yo is an entirely reasoning adult is a disaster. If the hand reaches for the hot pot on the stove, a sharp smack is entirely appropriate, since the pain is like the pain from vaccinating for a real disease like smallpox: a small harm to prevent a bigger problem. Smack your little brother in the face and immediately get a smack for your efforts? It works with a 2yo in at least reassuring him that there is some sense of justice in the universe.

  54. To the objection kids these days are going off the rails on account of a spared rod, fair enough.

    They’re going off the rails because they get zero discipline in any way not because their parents don’t spank them. “Don’t spank” doesn’t equal indulge them in every way.

    I’ve probably said this before here but there are times using force (which is not violence) is totally justified. The parent/child relationship is unique. Parent can “invade their kid’s space,” as it’s called.

    And we’re all human, tempers flare. But learn to dial it down. Hitting a kid just teaches them that you have no control over yourself.

  55. @TomSchmidt

    … some behavior goes beyond the pale.

    Okay, but what would you have done about it?

    Whatever that is, have you any evidence, even an anecdote, that similar action has produced good long-term results in the past? Can you name a single adult who, when he or she was a child, benefited from similar action and now is thankful for it? Because I can name two separate adults who, decades after the childhood action, still damn Child Protective Services (CPS) to hell for it.

    I believe that you are trying to solve an insoluble problem. Such solutions only make a bad situation worse.

    The state will never be allowed to displace the family if I have anything to say about it.

  56. @Barbarossa

    Violence is dangerous stuff and best controlled. The person swinging a belt or paddle is amplifying force through leverage and also not personally suffering any physical pain from the effort. It can quickly and easily get out of hand. there’s a reason for laws like “An eye for an eye.” They also mean “no more than an eye for an eye.” In other words, people are pretty good at stepping up the level of violence in retribution. Belts and paddles allow this where open hands do not.

    There’s a reason why brass knuckles are banned by most polities, as well. They remove the natural caution people have with hitting with fists.

    despite my best intentions I will fail to provide my children a perfect environment
    We can guarantee that. But that’s also an impossible standard to meet. Best to asymptotically approach perfection. You’ve moved your family’s application of force to children away from use of amplifying objects. I don’t know too many people who wouldn’t say that’s better. If your kids decide that you were too harsh and move further along the “no harmful hitting” continuum, they’ll be doing so from the stable base you provided them. Maybe 100 generations along they’ll hit perfection.

  57. @V. K. Ovelund

    I will not have some busybody who does not live in my home and does not have to deal with the consequences of actions within the home

    Oh, but I very much DO have to deal with the consequences of parents who think “discipline” only means hitting, and never teach their kids to internalize proper behavior. Those are consequences that go outside the home. If you raise a little psychopath who only learns to stop obnoxious behavior because physical force is used against him, then some day if we cross paths I might have to shoot him.

    I don’t think this is your parenting style, but I’ve met plenty of children of that sort of pathological parenting. I hope their abused children vent their anger upon them, not the rest of us.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
  58. anonymous[129] • Disclaimer says:

    Less than 50% of liberals are currently opposed to corporal punishment of kids?? This seems like it is crying out with racial confounders.

  59. Tulip says:

    Excluding actual abuse, what if corporal punishment doesn’t actually matter to children’s development. I understand there are studies showing worse outcomes for children who receive corporal punishment, but little into behavioral genetics, e.g. whether little hellions get more corporal punishment than more compliant children. Having grown up in a time and place where schools used corporal punishment, I must say that children used to be a lot more polite and well behaved.

    I am afraid we have spared the rod and force fed the kiddies ritalin and other powerful mind altering drugs at great cost, looking at all the fentanyl zombies walking around who all started on ritalin. Maybe if they had just gotten a good paddling some of them might still be here with us, instead of being found cold and face down in a gas station bathroom.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  60. JessicaR says:
    @Daniel H

    My mother’s boyfriend used to pick fights with me and goad me until I talked back. Then he would spank me on my bare buttocks and afterwards look at my genitals. It started the first time he was in the house. He was a stranger. Few things are worse for a girl than to have intimate body parts exposed by a stranger of the opposite sex.

    He never spanked my brothers. Ever. Even when one brother hit my mother.

    He also tried repeatedly to see me naked by asking me if he wanted him to help me wash my back.
    And in later years, he talked about those spankings with the same disgusting smirk and choked tone of voice he used in trying to talk me into the bathing thing

    He ALSO never ever helped my brothers bathe.

    I found out later that my mother had sex with him once, found it disgusting–he was much older and very ugly–and rebuffed him afterwards.

    He was angry about sex and took it out on his lady love’s female child.

    NO MAN SHOULD EVER SPANK A FEMALE CHILD THAT IS NOT HIS–MEANING THAT HE ISTHE GENETIC OR ADOPTIVE FATHER. WANTING TO GET INTO THE GIRL’S MOTHER’S PANTS DOES NOT COUNT.

    For some people, spanking is a source of sexual gratification–the FBI actually busted a ring of child-spanking fetishists. It is a real thing.

    If a man spanks a female child not his own, he should be required to pay child support and include that child in his will. If he administers a parental punishment, he should have parental responsibilities to go with it.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @Barbarossa
  61. I have posted an unusual number of comments to this thread. I hope that readers still reading are reading because they judge that, on this particular topic, I have something interesting to say.

    A significant fallacy into which parents of fewer than four children or so often fall is to believe that the manner in which children are raised largely determined their personalities once they’ve grown up. Within the normal range of parenting, this just isn’t so—as becomes comically obvious once one has four or five children in the home. Each child remains as he or she came out of the womb.

    How is this observation connected to corporal punishment, you ask? In the interest of brevity, I shall leave it to others to complete the link.

  62. Host: Have more kids!

    Also host: No using simplest and most effective discipline tool!

    I have 4 kids under 8. I discipline the way laid out repeatedly in the Bible. I take them anywhere without fear of meltdowns. Grandparents comment. My own kids ask me what’s wrong with the other kids who scream and rage when told it’s home time. There is nothing peaceful about disobedient screaming kids. They have to manhandle them off to the car, whereas my quick attention with the wooden spoon at home means I can speak and turn to leave without even having to watch to see if they’ll obey.

    Peaceful parenting should be put right up there with a mostly peaceful protest for pure propaganda. It’s anything but.

    Proverbs has it right:

    The rod and reproof give wisdom:
    but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
    When the wicked are multiplied, transgression increaseth:
    but the righteous shall see their fall.
    Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest;
    yea, he shall give delight unto thy soul.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
  63. @JessicaR

    NO MAN SHOULD EVER SPANK A FEMALE CHILD THAT IS NOT HIS–MEANING THAT HE IS THE GENETIC OR ADOPTIVE FATHER. WANTING TO GET INTO THE GIRL’S MOTHER’S PANTS DOES NOT COUNT.

    I agree with this and condone and promote the sentiment that underlies it.

    One does not judge a lonely parent who, divorced or widowed, takes a new partner; but even with the best intentions, it’s a mess. With worse intentions, it’s worse than a mess. It has been a mess since Biblical times. If the lonely parent can bear to live without a new partner, that is admirable, and is probably preferable.

    (A note regarding J. R. R. Tolkien’s fiction follows. I would not call the note a spoiler but someone might.)

    [MORE]

    Did you know that the entire, epic catastrophe whose denouement was memorably recounted by Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings, unfolded from a single, fictional instance of a widowed king that took a second wife? Only Tolkien’s readers that have read The Silmarillion will be aware of it, but it strikes me as a significant that a second marriage, of all factors, should motivate Tolkien to craft The Lord of the Rings, regarded by some to be the 20th century’s greatest English-language novel.

    The second wife was even Galadriel’s paternal grandmother, good not evil, yet vast strife ensues nevertheless.

  64. @Supply and Demand

    Not everyone has the moral fortitude to pat themselves on the back for being an Ethel Rosenberg the way you do.

    Good luck staying out of the labor camps once the US government collapses and foreign governments no longer have to worry about their meddling when they confiscate the wealth of the dumbass expats who don’t understand that Uncle Sam’s constant foreign interventions are the only thing that protects them.

    • Replies: @Supply and Demand
  65. @Rosie

    We know that roughly ~2% of the male population are psychopaths…

    Just curious, what percent of the female population suffers from psychopathy?

    there are some children who only understand pain.

    How hard do you have to hit a boy to beat the psychopathy out of him?
    Does it actually work?

    I think your ~2% estimate is low. I believe primary psychopathy manifests in ~6% of the population while secondary psychopathy occurs in another 8-10%.

    Most psychopaths go undetected.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @A123
  66. @Adam Smith

    How hard do you have to hit a boy to beat the psychopathy out of him? Does it actually work?

    No.

    In some cases, nothing works. No matter how many hundreds of evenings parents have sat up in bed, trying to figure out together what to do about Johnny, there is no answer. The misery does not end until Johnny steals the neighbor’s wallet and jewelry, molests Johnny’s little sister, wrecks Johnny’s mother’s car on a joyride, and lands in state custody for it.

    So let us not judge. Those parents are probably doing about the best they can. You and I have not walked alongside them. We do not know.

    • Agree: Adam Smith
  67. A123 says:
    @Adam Smith

    Just curious, what percent of the female population suffers from psychopathy?

    Women have different problems. (1)

    Over 50% Of Liberal, White Women Under 30 Have A Mental Health Issue. Are We Worried Yet?

    Progressivism is an ideology that supposedly demands equality for all, and one that keeps score to an exhausting degree. The privilege between social classes, between races, between men and women, between religious and non-religious, and more, all have to be constantly monitored, and “inequality” has to be exposed for the purposes of “accountability.” That kind of behavior isn’t just unrealistic, it’s unsustainable.

    We know that building resiliency against hardship is the best weapon against depression and anxiety, yet progressive ideology forces its followers to wallow in feelings of helplessness and victimhood. Instead of empowering women and minorities with self-knowledge, strength of character, and resilience to hardship, progressivism encourages victims to stay in a place of fear and helplessness.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.eviemagazine.com/post/over-50-percent-white-liberal-women-under-30-mental-health-condition

  68. @songbird

    Would those two black girls have killed that Uber Eats driver in DC, if

    Not sure you want to use that example. If there is any demographic more likely to have been routinely backhanded across the face as toddlers for crossing undefined boundaries, I don’t know what it would be.

  69. @JessicaR

    That a truly terrible story and I’m sorry that you had to endure that. It’s somehow amazing to me that there are people who would do such things to a defenseless child. They are true monsters.
    I hope you have been able to put it behind you as much as possible and can make a good life for yourself despite it.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  70. @Observerate

    My own punishment style is perhaps a bit less physical than yours, but I understand your point completely. My own kids are similar in that I get a lot of compliments on their behavior, which is often somewhat surprising to me since I usually just feel they are behaving reasonably, not exceptionally. However, when the alternative examples are reflected on…

    I would say that at this juncture there is far more societal damage done by under disciplined kids than over disciplined. In that sense, the continued rise of “peaceful parenting” should perhaps be regarded with more horror than the alternative it’s replacing.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
  71. Twinkie says:

    This is the Twinkie household, except I don’t need a whistle:

    We can do it in German too, complete with Eins, Zwei, Drei, Vier, Fünf, und so weiter, complete with “Jawohl, mein Vater!” I even got one who shows up with her nose in the book.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
    • LOL: Johann Ricke
  72. @Chinese cuck

    You are much more likely to die in an Biden internment camp than I am, frankly, because I paid my dues here in the PRC by stealing research on my way out of ZOG. If there’s one thing the Chinese value at the end of the day, it’s research. Innovation isn’t their strong suit, and I expect they will keep some whites like myself in very comfortable cages for the rest of their dynasty.

    Worst case scenario, I married into a politically connected family. It’s all about guanxi at the end of the day.

    I hope you’ll get around to realizing your own likely death in a Jew-run camp and make the appropriate preparations.

    Best of luck!

  73. @Daniel Williams

    There is an easy answer.

    What to do when your kid is recalcitrant and really acting badly? Like hurting their siblings? Or doing things that is legitimately bad behavior?

    Give them chores. Make them help.

    Clean the car in and out, fold the laundry, do the dishes, mow the lawn… plenty of choices. If they act up, they get jobs to do. If they still act up, more jobs.

    Best of all, you as the parent don’t have to pop a blood vessel or turn into a monster you don’t want to be. Just calmly give them a job. And if need be, another, and another. You aren’t berating and abusing them. They have a consequence. And stuff that needs doing anyway gets done.

    Yelling and correcting verbally has its place but it is rough on the parent and the kid. Peacefully giving the naughty kid jobs is the way and the light!

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
    , @anon
  74. @DanHessinMD

    In my own mind, by the time a kid is able to have more productive punishments as you describe, the time for things like spankings has passed.
    The best thing about punishments like what you’re describing is that useful stuff gets done!

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
  75. anon[393] • Disclaimer says:
    @DanHessinMD

    What do you do when none of that works? Even better, what do you do when the child in question refuses to submit, while threatening to call the Child Protective services & tell them he’s being abused?

    Have you ever been interviewed by CPS as a suspect?

    It’s interesting to see how many people here allegedly have children, yet cling to a mixture of blank-slate mythology and solipsism.

    Yet…genes really exist, and human behaviors are a combination of nurture with nature.

  76. @V. K. Ovelund

    Just saw this in my mailbox.

    The original note was a poster talking about how he had been disrespectful to his mother, and how his father had taken him to the barn and told him in no uncertain terms that he was going to lay a beating on the kid if he didn’t stop. No beating was applied, because the disparaging behavior was stopped.

    In a world where Antifa says “Your speech is violence. Our violence is speech,” the story was a reminder from a different time. Sticks and stones… but sometimes words can incite violence. One thing young men need to learn is that you do NOT keep needling people, or they can go to violence. Insult a man’s mother by calling him an SoB, for instance, and you may get shot or beaten for your troubles.

    That’s what I mean by “beyond the pale.” Some speech will bring about a violent response, and young men need to learn to control this at home before they realize it while they’re bleeding out on a street somewhere. The father’s lesson: learn to control yourself, or someone else will do it for you. That’s good parenting, even though the father committed what the police would call assault (that’s threatening violence, not hitting, which is battery.)

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
  77. @Barbarossa

    My own kids are similar in that I get a lot of compliments on their behavior, which is often somewhat surprising to me since I usually just feel they are behaving reasonably, not exceptionally. However, when the alternative examples are reflected on…

    If I may, here’s a chance for the rest of us to chip in. I recall going once with a friend and his wife and two young sons, one of them with autism, to a restaurant. Being boys, they weren’t perfect automata, but they were well behaved. What I remember was the older woman who went up to my friend’s wife and praised her for her well-behaved children. She might have floated to heaven at that moment.

    Disciplining children takes work, a lot of work. Work without reward is often left aside. Don’t just notice and avoid the noisy, undisciplined brats: seek out and praise the parents of the well-behaved and indeed delightful children. As Thich Nhat Hanh says: “everything requires nourishment to survive,” including love, hate, and parenting. Feed what you want to grow, and starve what you want to kill.

    I would say that at this juncture there is far more societal damage done by under disciplined kids than over disciplined.

    I’d argue that it has always been thus. I’ve seen too many kids whose parents lack discipline, so they’re incompetent at teaching it to children. A lot of those rely on hitting children; I’m going to wager that even the people here who DO hit children will insist on a few rules, like 1) NEVER do it when you’re angry; 2) Using your own hand, rather than an implement like a wooden spoon self-limits the physical pain (and thus damage) you can inflict. Undisciplined parents don’t bother to circumscribe their disciplining within channels, so you wind up with undisciplined children who learn to lie to get out of punishment and also to hit others, indiscriminately.

    • Replies: @Barbarossa
  78. AE,

    You know you need to do the follow-up post on racial differences in corporal punishment of children.

    Your use of peaceful parenting indicates a desire to not see corporal punishment. Show that it’s most favored amongst the black underclass and maybe you can shame white parents into avoiding it as low-class black behavior. That approach won’t work on the liberals, but it might work on right-wingers.

    • Replies: @J1234
  79. J1234 says:
    @TomSchmidt

    Your use of peaceful parenting indicates a desire to not see corporal punishment. Show that it’s most favored amongst the black underclass and maybe you can shame white parents into avoiding it as low-class black behavior. That approach won’t work on the liberals, but it might work on right-wingers.

    Interesting observation. I think you’re on to something. How long before peaceful parenting will be seen (by the possessed left) as yet another manifestation of white privilege? That’s already happened to civility, a quality that used to be almost universally admired (though not always adhered to.)

    https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2019/03/14/700897826/when-civility-is-used-as-a-cudgel-against-people-of-color

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
  80. @TomSchmidt

    This is a spot on comment.
    The only thing I can think to add to it is that yes, it is a lot of work to raise to raise well disciplined children, but less work than perpetually dealing with poorly disciplined children. And the former gets you small people that you actually enjoy being around, who become adults that you enjoy being around.

  81. @J1234

    Glad to see you caught the potential irony in that approach. Chris Rock had the famous video of “how not to get your ass beat when dealing with the police.” It was funny, but I wonder if he’s disowned it? In the case of the shooting in Minnesota this week, and the fellow shot in Kenosha, both failed to comply with police demands, setting off bad consequences for themselves, the surrounding communities, and the police who shot them.

    If the black lower class does it, it first must now only be permitted, it must be praised. I can imagine the next riot being in defense of parents who refused to surrender to police after dousing their children with boiling water, a particularly noxious child “discipline” method I’ve only heard of black parents using.

    Still there’s an obvious counter-thrust: beating black children was something white slaveowners did, so it must be wrong. Not that the left even tries to be consistent.

  82. @Daniel Williams

    Pain conveys a message. So does humiliation.

    Agree on these accounts.

  83. @ravin' lunatic

    Emotional, uncontrolled abuse whether verbal or physical isn’t discipline or guidance at all. It’s all bad.

  84. @Rosie

    Well put, thanks. There are a lot of creative ways to reduce expenses, but when the two incomes are needed or only one can be earned, it’s probably at least worth serious explanation once the child(ren) matures to the point she is able to understand why mom had to work and how much she missed not being around as much as she’d like to have been around.

  85. @Buzz Mohawk

    There is no justification for a parent to be drunk around his child, ever.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  86. @V. K. Ovelund

    So the corporal punishment kept this under control and his behavior would’ve been even worse without it?

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  87. @Supply and Demand

    Fear gets compliance in the moment, little else.

  88. @Barbarossa

    For what it’s worth, this is not a call for greater state intervention that will end up doing more harm than good. It’s a moral case.

  89. @A123

    The hole in this heavy insinuation is that there is no evidence so far as I’m aware that indicates giving these hoodlums a good whooping instead of confinement would’ve resulted in them turning out better. Crime has gone down as corporal punishment has gone down, and demographics who employ more corporal punishment are more criminally prone than those who don’t. There’s an obvious racial angle to this and that’s not to necessarily claim anything significant about causality.

    The retort is that while violent criminality is down from a generation or a century ago, younger generations are soft and fragile. Agreed on the assessment but not on the subsequent assertion that it’s because they aren’t being beaten enough as kids. There are a lot of other factors in play–electronics, little peer contact especially outside the constricted environment of school, social media, fewer men involved in raising their children, etc.

    • Replies: @A123
  90. @Supply and Demand

    I bit, it translates as “while speaking Chinese”.

  91. @Audacious Epigone

    So the corporal punishment kept this under control and his behavior would’ve been even worse without it?

    No, not under control. There were no good options, though every imaginable option was tried, anyway. Most options were tried more than once.

    So do not meddle. Do not judge. Not until you have sat up with those parents through 1000 late nights, tearing your hair out, attempting to discern what to do.

    Fear gets compliance in the moment, little else.

    You do not understand the fundamentally spiteful, manipulative child, the child who turns all love and reason to perversity. Thank God. You would not want to understand that. Such a child is not as other children are.

  92. A123 says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    There’s an obvious racial angle to this and that’s not to necessarily claim anything significant about causality.

    Starship Troopers was originally released in 1959. There was an obvious racial angle present in the presumably Hispanic hero Johnny Rico.

    With all due respect, I humbly suggest that you read (or re-read) the book with the original publication date firmly in mind.

    PEACE 😇

  93. @V. K. Ovelund

    This post isn’t a call for greater state intervention, which will likely do more harm than good. That CPS is bad gets no objection here. But did the spanking do any good? Does it ever?

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  94. @Tulip

    Isn’t that a false dichotomy? The choice isn’t confined to corporal punishment or this:

  95. @Observerate

    The proverb works just as well without physical violence. The shepherd uses his rod to guide the sheep, not to beat them. The choice isn’t dichotomously between neglect and corporal punishment.

  96. @Audacious Epigone

    But did the spanking do any good? Does it ever?

    Of course spanking does good ever.

    Have you never met the four-year-old who was miserable for hours on end until he or she got a mild spanking, ten minutes after which the child was as happy as could be?

    Some children love to be spanked, and won’t rest until they get what they love. Reports of my own family are of limited use to anyone else, but I’ve a daughter who absolutely, positively demanded mild spankings at age 4, and would settle for nothing else. Her little brother, on the other hand, was indignant to be spanked (but on the other hand he was an orderly child who needed little correction, anyway, so that was fine). For that pair, I shrugged and gave each what he or she wanted. Why not? It worked.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  97. @V. K. Ovelund

    Rereading, AE, I get the sense that I may have missed your point. Am not being deliberately dense. Please feel free to rephrase if you wish.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  98. @V. K. Ovelund

    Regarding the troubled child that was physically disciplined in desperation, did that physical discipline do any good?

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  99. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    There is no justification for a parent to be drunk around his child, ever.

    My wife and I have been inebriated around our children once or twice over the years. We were happy drunk and our kids thought we were goofy and funny.

    By the way, do you object to my style of corporal punishment as well?

  100. @Audacious Epigone

    Regarding the troubled child that was physically disciplined in desperation, did that physical discipline do any good?

    Since the alternative happens to be counterfactual (that is, since the child was in fact disciplined in desperation), it is impossible to say; but the ultimate outcome was not an especially good one for the child. In that sense, one might say that physical discipline did no good.

    Siblings were never seriously injured by the troubled child in the event, but again the comparison compares against a counterfactual. Impossible to say.

    To be clear, I do not even imply that the physical discipline was, on the whole, for the best in the case in question. Maybe it was; maybe it was not. I only believe that no good options likely existed.

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Audacious Epigone Comments via RSS