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The Left's Love of Free Trade
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Last week, YouGov included a couple of interesting but clumsy questions about jobs and trade. The organization has released a new poll this week with a much cleaner question that cuts to the chase. It asks respondents if “free trade is good or bad” for the US. The following graph shows, for selected demographics, the percentage who think it is good and subtracts from that the percentage who think it is bad. The 36% answering “not sure” are coded neutrally:

The paleocon stands alone.

Neoliberalism isn’t losing. To the contrary, it’s co-opting leading figures on the left. Immigration wasn’t the only thing Bernie Sanders was singing a different tune on four years ago. He was also once skeptical of trade agreements.

No longer. Now it’s all silent on the Democratic Socialist’s front. The last time he tweeted about “free trade” was in 2016. He brought it up regularly in the last presidential election cycle, but just as the neoliberal establishment corrected him on immigration, it has corrected him on trade as well. Update: As was pointed out in the comments, Sanders does bring up trade with some frequency. Interestingly, he does it more frequently on his smaller Senate account than on his larger and more salient presidential account, and while he regularly mentioned “free trade” in the 2016 election, he no longer does so.

 
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  1. Free trade is good. Countries like Germany and The Netherlands are doing very well with Free Trade. The big problem is China violating WTO rules for so long.

    But I question the poll. The numbers seems too low, and I don’t think blacks would be so much higher than Hispanics.

    • Replies: @d dan

    "The big problem is China violating WTO rules for so long."
     
    Please cite the specifics of China's violation of WTO rules - you can't
    , @d dan

    "The big problem is China violating WTO rules for so long."
     
    Prove that! You can't, because China has the best record of compliance of WTO rulings among all nations.

    Guess which country has the worse compliance record: yes, it is U.S.

    Any wonder why Trump has to resort in trade wars to settle scores outside WTO? Because U.S. is often on the wrong side of WTO ruling.
    , @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    "Thus in this case, therefore in all cases." Libertarianism is a bad joke.
  2. Yeah. You ain’t preaching to the choir. The pea-brain libertarians on here are too stupid to understand your, and my, hatred of “free trade.” They think it’s good because it has the word “free” in it, they are that stupid. I like how the first libertarian out of the box has not even recognized the cognitive dissonance–that he is a liberal with his stupid free-trade talk.

  3. I’m skeptical of that conservative number. Most of the conservative establishment led by the Wall Street Journal and AEI is very pro-free trade. Is Trump changing people’s minds that much? I did notice in his rally tonight that talk of slapping tariffs on German goods got a big cheer.

    • Replies: @BaboonTycoon
    Indeed, even I am pro free trade right now. Under ideal conditions, I would not be, but consider the practical reality that supporting tariffs causes right now. What happens when there's a big jobs boom combined with affirmative action and wide open borders? Not anything good for the working class.
    , @GodHelpUs
    Trump was elected because the distance between what the people want and what the leaders want has become immense in both parties. He didn't make it that way.

    Also keep in mind most people's political opinions are absorbed from the media they view and the people they interact with. Very few people make an active effort to develop political views through reason, critique, and study. This is why propaganda is so effective.

    But propaganda can only be taken so far before it leads to an Emperor Has No Clothes moment. It seems Trump is the child pointing and speaking the unmentionable about free trade.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    Conservative, Inc and actual conservatives are not the same thing, though. Did Trump lead the revolt or just run to the front of it?
  4. @Bragadocious
    I'm skeptical of that conservative number. Most of the conservative establishment led by the Wall Street Journal and AEI is very pro-free trade. Is Trump changing people's minds that much? I did notice in his rally tonight that talk of slapping tariffs on German goods got a big cheer.

    Indeed, even I am pro free trade right now. Under ideal conditions, I would not be, but consider the practical reality that supporting tariffs causes right now. What happens when there’s a big jobs boom combined with affirmative action and wide open borders? Not anything good for the working class.

  5. @Thomm
    Free trade is good. Countries like Germany and The Netherlands are doing very well with Free Trade. The big problem is China violating WTO rules for so long.

    But I question the poll. The numbers seems too low, and I don't think blacks would be so much higher than Hispanics.

    “The big problem is China violating WTO rules for so long.”

    Please cite the specifics of China’s violation of WTO rules – you can’t

  6. Not correct; Warren and Sanders are both protectionist.

    • Replies: @songbird
    Sanders is totally spineless. He used to give a lot of lipservice to immigration restrictionism, but that was too un-PC because it accidentally went against increasing diversity, so he came around to supporting immigration, while specifying that he supported diversity.
  7. Bernie has to lay low on this, because the Establishment Democrats will shred him if he takes any stance that even slightly resembles Trump’s. (they themselves do this all the time, but none of them are harassing billionaires)

  8. That’s why I voted for Nader. Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum were both free traders. The Dems went corporate with Bill Clinton. The New Democrats HATE guys like me. I’m talking about union guys.

    Observe those (former) coal miners in England voting Tory. Nobody hates today’s so called left like those of us who have been betrayed. There are a lot of us among the Deplorables. But we are old and dying off. The young folks don’t remember when Labor was respected and prosperous. They have been told it’s all about skin color. No. It’s still about Capital vs Labor and government as arbiter between them.

    If your choice is Globalists or Socialists you are truly fucked.

    If you like your Capitalism you can keep your Capitalism. But you have to share the loot (wages not welfare) with the workers.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    Carter was no working class hero. Remember he joined all the other Presidents (Reagan was already gone mentally) in the Rose Garden to support ratifying NAFTA. He just had a short run messed up by a severe recession.
  9. This is quite lazy. But that’s pretty typical for you.

    Look at Senator Sanders’ Senatorial account, and search for the word “trade” rather than the more restrictive “free trade”. You’ll find that he has tweeted about trade policy at least once a month throughout the campaign, the most recent tweet coming from 2nd of this month. All his comments are quite critical of what is (misleadingly) described as “free trade”. That’s not counting all the other times he mentions trade on TV, in stump speeches, etc.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Thanks, corrected it in the body of the post.

    Lazy, I wish! I'm extremely busy. But everyone has 24 hours in a day, so I have to cop to being sloppy. It is interesting that he used to criticize "free trade" regularly in 2016 but never does so anymore. Also interesting that he talks about trade more on his Senate account (8m followers) than on his presidential one (10m followers).
  10. Should individuals have the right to buy and sell anything they want, to anybody they want, anywhere in the world? Of course not! We all need big daddy governments to tell us exactly what we can trade, and who we can trade with, as we’re all too stupid to figure it out for ourselves. Thank god that selfless governments, who know better than all us morons, are there to make all of our lives easier by preventing us all from buying/selling whatever we want, to anyone we want, anywhere in the world.😂

    And so it goes……

    “Regards” onebornfree

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    It's God with a capital G, virgin boomertarian. Unless you're boomertarian e e cummings or something. Anyway, silence. No one is born free either, by the way - we're all born in sin. Which is why people can sell porn and other crap all over the world, while people like you complain about a nonexistent nanny state.
    , @Arthur Pierce
    “What we can trade”
    Basically. I think the State is perfectly justified in jailing people who sell heroin. I think it doesn’t go far enough, in fact. Heroin dealers really deserve to be hanged in the public square.

    “Where we can trade it.”
    What you’re really in favor of is China’s government subsidizing its own industries until all US industries have shut down and moved to China, and the various network externalities and economies of scale and learning favor Chinese firms.

    , @Lars Porsena
    Brilliant essay that explains what free trade is actually all about:

    https://jacobitemag.com/2019/12/14/the-geopolitics-of-liberalism/
    , @Thorfinnsson
    It's almost like the free choices of individuals have second-order effects.

    Crazy, I know.
    , @MarkinLA
    Society is more complex than just buying and selling products. There are families that need to be supported. This requires a whole host of issues that economics has nothing useful to say about.

    Is it better to have cheap products and 50% of the population unemployed or is it better to have everybody employed even it it costs each of us a little more?

    Is it better to have people working at jobs that don’t pay the bills such that they are also on welfare or is it better to have wages high enough so that people think they are self-sufficient. The kids see their dad as a great provider, the dad is proud that he takes care of his family.

    Libertarianism is the immature thinking that lacks any depth.
    , @Biggus Dickus
    Free trade destroys the family, and the nation. No nation can survive it long.
  11. @Onebornfree
    Should individuals have the right to buy and sell anything they want, to anybody they want, anywhere in the world? Of course not! We all need big daddy governments to tell us exactly what we can trade, and who we can trade with, as we’re all too stupid to figure it out for ourselves. Thank god that selfless governments, who know better than all us morons, are there to make all of our lives easier by preventing us all from buying/selling whatever we want, to anyone we want, anywhere in the world.😂

    And so it goes......

    “Regards” onebornfree

    It’s God with a capital G, virgin boomertarian. Unless you’re boomertarian e e cummings or something. Anyway, silence. No one is born free either, by the way – we’re all born in sin. Which is why people can sell porn and other crap all over the world, while people like you complain about a nonexistent nanny state.

    • Replies: @Onebornfree
    What a laugh! Thanks for re- confirming my “most people are total morons” theory of how the world really works. 😂

    "The kind of man who wants the government to adopt and enforce his ideas is always the kind of man whose ideas are idiotic" H.L.Mencken

    “Regards” onebornfree
  12. @Onebornfree
    Should individuals have the right to buy and sell anything they want, to anybody they want, anywhere in the world? Of course not! We all need big daddy governments to tell us exactly what we can trade, and who we can trade with, as we’re all too stupid to figure it out for ourselves. Thank god that selfless governments, who know better than all us morons, are there to make all of our lives easier by preventing us all from buying/selling whatever we want, to anyone we want, anywhere in the world.😂

    And so it goes......

    “Regards” onebornfree

    “What we can trade”
    Basically. I think the State is perfectly justified in jailing people who sell heroin. I think it doesn’t go far enough, in fact. Heroin dealers really deserve to be hanged in the public square.

    “Where we can trade it.”
    What you’re really in favor of is China’s government subsidizing its own industries until all US industries have shut down and moved to China, and the various network externalities and economies of scale and learning favor Chinese firms.

    • Replies: @Onebornfree
    Arthur Pierce says: “I think the State is perfectly justified in jailing people who sell heroin. I think it doesn’t go far enough, in fact. Heroin dealers really deserve to be hanged in the public square.”

    Way to go , Arfur! 😂 🤪

    “The kind of man who wants the government to adopt and enforce his ideas is always the kind of man whose ideas are idiotic" H.L.Mencken

    "Everything government touches turns to crap" Ringo Starr

    “Regards” onebornfree
  13. On this one, A.E., I’ll just make a general comment about poll results for different age groups. Most of that 18 through 29 y/o group has no clue. Before those readers get up in arms, I’ll say the same for every group of people that age, with some exceptions, of course, like myself.

    So, you can expect the young people to be on the wrong side of lots of political issues, over the years, and over the centuries. First, lets repeal Amendment XXVI.

  14. The fact you have to apply for a permit means so-called “free trade” is far from being free.

    Well, at least you can apply for a permit to trade with Wakanda.

  15. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    It's God with a capital G, virgin boomertarian. Unless you're boomertarian e e cummings or something. Anyway, silence. No one is born free either, by the way - we're all born in sin. Which is why people can sell porn and other crap all over the world, while people like you complain about a nonexistent nanny state.

    What a laugh! Thanks for re- confirming my “most people are total morons” theory of how the world really works. 😂

    “The kind of man who wants the government to adopt and enforce his ideas is always the kind of man whose ideas are idiotic” H.L.Mencken

    “Regards” onebornfree

  16. @Arthur Pierce
    “What we can trade”
    Basically. I think the State is perfectly justified in jailing people who sell heroin. I think it doesn’t go far enough, in fact. Heroin dealers really deserve to be hanged in the public square.

    “Where we can trade it.”
    What you’re really in favor of is China’s government subsidizing its own industries until all US industries have shut down and moved to China, and the various network externalities and economies of scale and learning favor Chinese firms.

    Arthur Pierce says: “I think the State is perfectly justified in jailing people who sell heroin. I think it doesn’t go far enough, in fact. Heroin dealers really deserve to be hanged in the public square.”

    Way to go , Arfur! 😂 🤪

    “The kind of man who wants the government to adopt and enforce his ideas is always the kind of man whose ideas are idiotic” H.L.Mencken

    “Everything government touches turns to crap” Ringo Starr

    “Regards” onebornfree

    • Replies: @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    Well you want the right to "trade whatever you want, wherever you want" to be enforced by the government, so you prove your own quote at least correct in your case, you total idiot.

    And Ringo Starr was by far the most mediocre of the liverpool mediocrities. "Everything Ringo Starr has done is shit."
    -anyone with any taste
  17. @Bragadocious
    I'm skeptical of that conservative number. Most of the conservative establishment led by the Wall Street Journal and AEI is very pro-free trade. Is Trump changing people's minds that much? I did notice in his rally tonight that talk of slapping tariffs on German goods got a big cheer.

    Trump was elected because the distance between what the people want and what the leaders want has become immense in both parties. He didn’t make it that way.

    Also keep in mind most people’s political opinions are absorbed from the media they view and the people they interact with. Very few people make an active effort to develop political views through reason, critique, and study. This is why propaganda is so effective.

    But propaganda can only be taken so far before it leads to an Emperor Has No Clothes moment. It seems Trump is the child pointing and speaking the unmentionable about free trade.

  18. @E. Harding
    Not correct; Warren and Sanders are both protectionist.

    Sanders is totally spineless. He used to give a lot of lipservice to immigration restrictionism, but that was too un-PC because it accidentally went against increasing diversity, so he came around to supporting immigration, while specifying that he supported diversity.

  19. @Thomm
    Free trade is good. Countries like Germany and The Netherlands are doing very well with Free Trade. The big problem is China violating WTO rules for so long.

    But I question the poll. The numbers seems too low, and I don't think blacks would be so much higher than Hispanics.

    “The big problem is China violating WTO rules for so long.”

    Prove that! You can’t, because China has the best record of compliance of WTO rulings among all nations.

    Guess which country has the worse compliance record: yes, it is U.S.

    Any wonder why Trump has to resort in trade wars to settle scores outside WTO? Because U.S. is often on the wrong side of WTO ruling.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    ... aaaannnnnd, another resident Commie Mao sack-hanger heard from.

    Dan, are you a Chinaman? I'm really conflicted about this now, as I completely agreed with all your comments on the Ron Paul post a few weeks back. You may be a modern-China proponent, and believe me, I get that. Peak Stupidity has many posts with the China topic key for your immediate perusal. We describe the good, bad, and the the ugly with humor, fairness, and alacrity.

    However, unless I remember wrongly, you seem to be also enamored with the Communist Red China under Chairman Mao. I just cannot reconcile an understanding of the enlightening concepts of property rights, adherence to the US Constitution, and liberty from Dr. Paul with the sick, tyrannical stupidity of the Communism of Mao the Butcher.

    Don't take this the wrong way, Mr. Dan, but are you politically bipolar?
  20. @Onebornfree
    Arthur Pierce says: “I think the State is perfectly justified in jailing people who sell heroin. I think it doesn’t go far enough, in fact. Heroin dealers really deserve to be hanged in the public square.”

    Way to go , Arfur! 😂 🤪

    “The kind of man who wants the government to adopt and enforce his ideas is always the kind of man whose ideas are idiotic" H.L.Mencken

    "Everything government touches turns to crap" Ringo Starr

    “Regards” onebornfree

    Well you want the right to “trade whatever you want, wherever you want” to be enforced by the government, so you prove your own quote at least correct in your case, you total idiot.

    And Ringo Starr was by far the most mediocre of the liverpool mediocrities. “Everything Ringo Starr has done is shit.”
    -anyone with any taste

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    I don't appreciate the repetition anymore by onebornfree of the Menken and Starr quotes, but that doesn't make those guys wrong ... far from it.

    As far as understanding of freedom goes, for Americans with 16+ years of indoctrination at the government prop-camps, it can take many of them a whole lifetime, or even never, to get it. It don't some easy. You've got to pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues, and you know it don't come easy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anpjEN9KeJ0
    , @Onebornfree
    Athletic and Whitesplosive says: “Well you want the right to “trade whatever you want, wherever you want” to be enforced by the government,”

    I do? Just how the phuck did you arrive at that particular [false] assumption,genius?

    “Regards” onebornfree
  21. @Thomm
    Free trade is good. Countries like Germany and The Netherlands are doing very well with Free Trade. The big problem is China violating WTO rules for so long.

    But I question the poll. The numbers seems too low, and I don't think blacks would be so much higher than Hispanics.

    “Thus in this case, therefore in all cases.” Libertarianism is a bad joke.

    • Replies: @Leopold
    So anything less than 50% income tax is 'Libertarianism'?

    You socialists are the most gluttonous moochers around.
  22. @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    Well you want the right to "trade whatever you want, wherever you want" to be enforced by the government, so you prove your own quote at least correct in your case, you total idiot.

    And Ringo Starr was by far the most mediocre of the liverpool mediocrities. "Everything Ringo Starr has done is shit."
    -anyone with any taste

    I don’t appreciate the repetition anymore by onebornfree of the Menken and Starr quotes, but that doesn’t make those guys wrong … far from it.

    As far as understanding of freedom goes, for Americans with 16+ years of indoctrination at the government prop-camps, it can take many of them a whole lifetime, or even never, to get it. It don’t some easy. You’ve got to pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues, and you know it don’t come easy.

  23. @Onebornfree
    Should individuals have the right to buy and sell anything they want, to anybody they want, anywhere in the world? Of course not! We all need big daddy governments to tell us exactly what we can trade, and who we can trade with, as we’re all too stupid to figure it out for ourselves. Thank god that selfless governments, who know better than all us morons, are there to make all of our lives easier by preventing us all from buying/selling whatever we want, to anyone we want, anywhere in the world.😂

    And so it goes......

    “Regards” onebornfree

    Brilliant essay that explains what free trade is actually all about:

    https://jacobitemag.com/2019/12/14/the-geopolitics-of-liberalism/

  24. @d dan

    "The big problem is China violating WTO rules for so long."
     
    Prove that! You can't, because China has the best record of compliance of WTO rulings among all nations.

    Guess which country has the worse compliance record: yes, it is U.S.

    Any wonder why Trump has to resort in trade wars to settle scores outside WTO? Because U.S. is often on the wrong side of WTO ruling.

    … aaaannnnnd, another resident Commie Mao sack-hanger heard from.

    Dan, are you a Chinaman? I’m really conflicted about this now, as I completely agreed with all your comments on the Ron Paul post a few weeks back. You may be a modern-China proponent, and believe me, I get that. Peak Stupidity has many posts with the China topic key for your immediate perusal. We describe the good, bad, and the the ugly with humor, fairness, and alacrity.

    However, unless I remember wrongly, you seem to be also enamored with the Communist Red China under Chairman Mao. I just cannot reconcile an understanding of the enlightening concepts of property rights, adherence to the US Constitution, and liberty from Dr. Paul with the sick, tyrannical stupidity of the Communism of Mao the Butcher.

    Don’t take this the wrong way, Mr. Dan, but are you politically bipolar?

    • Replies: @d dan

    "… aaaannnnnd, another resident Commie Mao sack-hanger heard from."
     
    Who is Mao? Oh, yes, a dead man for decades. I don't even know why is there such infatuation with him.

    As for the substance of my comment:

    Firstly, I am stating fact: China has the best compliance record on WTO ruling. So it is simply wrong for others to accuse China of violating WTO rules. Further, U.S. has the worse record, so it is double irony to accuse China of violating WTO rules. I challenge any people to prove me wrong.

    Second, trade war is ineffective. The core reason is that U.S. is losing its competitiveness. U.S. has lots of problems, those problems lies in U.S. So do the solutions. Blaming China is stupid.

    Thirdly, I believe in free trade, the freedom to trade with anyone. This is consistent with Ron Paul's idea. You might be the one that is politically bipolar.

    And finally, if you are talking about overall freedom, sorry to break it to you. China is getting more and more free each year (except in political freedom - but I don't care about criticizing Xi nor Trump). Chinese are definitely enjoying a lot more freedom comparing with the days of Mao (and of course, you just like to talk about the dead person). Whereas U.S. is going the other way. The trends are triple irony.

  25. Free Trade and Sovereignty-Sapping Trade Deal Scams will destroy the Democrat Party and Mass Legal Immigration and Mass Illegal Immigration will destroy the Republican Party. Unfortunately, the USA will be smashed all to pieces in the mayhem of the smoking ruins of the free trade policy battle and the immigration policy battle destroying the Democrat Party and the Republican Party.

    The two-party tyranny will be ripped to shreds by the globalizer donors who push free trade and trade deal scams and mass legal immigration and mass illegal immigration.

    Joe Biden is a radical extremist free trader who has pushed every anti-worker, sovereignty-sapping trade deal scam that he has ever seen. Biden backed NAFTA and Biden was screaming about how great NAFTA would be for rich people and corporations and globalizers and financializers and bankers and wankers, but Biden didn’t care about all the workers who would be attacked and destroyed and pauperized by that damn dirty trade deal scam called NAFTA.

    That horrible anti-worker scoundrel Joe Biden didn’t give a damn about the NAFTA attack on United States sovereignty that obliterated the freedom of decent Americans to make their own choices about how to use trade and manufacturing to do the most beneficial things for the entirety of the USA and the USA as a whole.

    In short, Biden the nasty politician whore grabbed the donor cash like a bastard and deliberately sacrificed the American worker and the sovereignty of the USA by pushing nation-killing free trade.

    Attention Free Trader — Trade Deal Scam Globalizer Joe Biden:

    If you wrap up the Democrat Party presidential nomination on March 3, you will see millions upon millions of voters abandon the Democrat Party to vote for the GREEN PARTY.

    You stupid dolts in the GREEN PARTY better have Lori Wallach or some patriotic America First trade agents who can tell the voters how much of a nasty, filthy free trader globalizer whore that Biden is.

    The Democrat Party must be destroyed, and the Clinton and Obama plan to de-industrialize the USA and pauperize the American worker using trade deal scams and free trade must not stand!

    Obama scuttled that trade deal scam called the Trans-Pacific Partnership because it would have really knocked the stuffing out of the Democrat Party in the Great Lakes states in 2016.

    Sanders would have benefited like an SOB from the brawl over TPP, and it would have hurt that baby boomer globalizer Hillary.

    FREE TRADE will destroy those nasty evil and immoral globalizers in the Democrat Party and it is gonna start on March 3 when that free trade loving scam artist Joe Biden wins the Democrat Party nomination.

    The GREEN PARTY will support America First trade and the Green Party will grab millions of votes from the Democrat Party in the Great Lakes states.

    The WHITE CORE AMERICA political party will call for the immediate implementation of an immigration moratorium and will call for the immediate deportation of all 30 million illegal alien invaders in the USA and that will destroy the treasonous and rancid Republican Party.

  26. @Achmed E. Newman
    ... aaaannnnnd, another resident Commie Mao sack-hanger heard from.

    Dan, are you a Chinaman? I'm really conflicted about this now, as I completely agreed with all your comments on the Ron Paul post a few weeks back. You may be a modern-China proponent, and believe me, I get that. Peak Stupidity has many posts with the China topic key for your immediate perusal. We describe the good, bad, and the the ugly with humor, fairness, and alacrity.

    However, unless I remember wrongly, you seem to be also enamored with the Communist Red China under Chairman Mao. I just cannot reconcile an understanding of the enlightening concepts of property rights, adherence to the US Constitution, and liberty from Dr. Paul with the sick, tyrannical stupidity of the Communism of Mao the Butcher.

    Don't take this the wrong way, Mr. Dan, but are you politically bipolar?

    “… aaaannnnnd, another resident Commie Mao sack-hanger heard from.”

    Who is Mao? Oh, yes, a dead man for decades. I don’t even know why is there such infatuation with him.

    As for the substance of my comment:

    Firstly, I am stating fact: China has the best compliance record on WTO ruling. So it is simply wrong for others to accuse China of violating WTO rules. Further, U.S. has the worse record, so it is double irony to accuse China of violating WTO rules. I challenge any people to prove me wrong.

    Second, trade war is ineffective. The core reason is that U.S. is losing its competitiveness. U.S. has lots of problems, those problems lies in U.S. So do the solutions. Blaming China is stupid.

    Thirdly, I believe in free trade, the freedom to trade with anyone. This is consistent with Ron Paul’s idea. You might be the one that is politically bipolar.

    And finally, if you are talking about overall freedom, sorry to break it to you. China is getting more and more free each year (except in political freedom – but I don’t care about criticizing Xi nor Trump). Chinese are definitely enjoying a lot more freedom comparing with the days of Mao (and of course, you just like to talk about the dead person). Whereas U.S. is going the other way. The trends are triple irony.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    You are right, Mr. Dan, that I have disagreed on that one Ron Paul belief in unlimited free trade (not the post in question that I saw your comments under). Maybe we are both bipolar, as I distinctly remember reading your support of all things China, including the Mao era, under the Godfree Roberts posts, and J. Derbyshire ones (maybe Fred Reed too). Do you deny that?

    The Chinese government cheats like hell on everything and that includes trade. I know personally of a whole container of goods held up at the docks in Shenzhen for over 1/2 a year, just to put the hurt on the imported goods. Funny thing is, that container was full of goods rejected by a German company due to the quality being below their standards. It had gotten shipped through the Mediterranean, the Suez Canal, Red Sea, Indian Ocean and S. China Sea, as the company was tired of the low-quality crap. When it finally got through Chinese customs, the container was pawned off on an unsuspecting other customer. China has it's own problems, and the biggest, for me personally, is that of the Cheap China-made Crap.

    In general, after the US elites, starting with a massive effort by Bill Clinton (MFN status) gave away loads of manufacturing expertise and human capital, trade has been unfair as hell. Trump is trying to set that right against opposition from elites of all kinds. They do not like that freedom-loving American middle class, or what's left of it.

    China WAS getting more free, but they've reverted. No more simply buying a SIM card on the street to use any mobile phone. One much REGISTER with the .gov. No more surfing the web at an internet cafe (if anyone does that anymore) without an ID. Then there's the social capital thing. The Chinese are going cashless in a big way, and that's not only going away from freedom and toward Orwellian control, but getting close to the Mark of the Beast territory.

    You never said where you live. I don't need a street address, just Lat/Long to get me within 500 miles.

    , @Bragadocious
    Maybe you're right about China's compliance with WTO, I don't know and frankly don't care. What I do know is that China has a miserable environmental record and a long history of dumping awful and dangerous products onto the American market, including toxic dog food, toxic drywall, defective steel, children's toys with lead paint, toothpaste with antifreeze chemicals in it, the list goes on and on. And of course, fentanyl. But I guess turning their rivers into Superfund sites and harming people overseas doesn't upset the WTO. Sounds like the WTO needs a new mission statement.
  27. @d dan

    "… aaaannnnnd, another resident Commie Mao sack-hanger heard from."
     
    Who is Mao? Oh, yes, a dead man for decades. I don't even know why is there such infatuation with him.

    As for the substance of my comment:

    Firstly, I am stating fact: China has the best compliance record on WTO ruling. So it is simply wrong for others to accuse China of violating WTO rules. Further, U.S. has the worse record, so it is double irony to accuse China of violating WTO rules. I challenge any people to prove me wrong.

    Second, trade war is ineffective. The core reason is that U.S. is losing its competitiveness. U.S. has lots of problems, those problems lies in U.S. So do the solutions. Blaming China is stupid.

    Thirdly, I believe in free trade, the freedom to trade with anyone. This is consistent with Ron Paul's idea. You might be the one that is politically bipolar.

    And finally, if you are talking about overall freedom, sorry to break it to you. China is getting more and more free each year (except in political freedom - but I don't care about criticizing Xi nor Trump). Chinese are definitely enjoying a lot more freedom comparing with the days of Mao (and of course, you just like to talk about the dead person). Whereas U.S. is going the other way. The trends are triple irony.

    You are right, Mr. Dan, that I have disagreed on that one Ron Paul belief in unlimited free trade (not the post in question that I saw your comments under). Maybe we are both bipolar, as I distinctly remember reading your support of all things China, including the Mao era, under the Godfree Roberts posts, and J. Derbyshire ones (maybe Fred Reed too). Do you deny that?

    The Chinese government cheats like hell on everything and that includes trade. I know personally of a whole container of goods held up at the docks in Shenzhen for over 1/2 a year, just to put the hurt on the imported goods. Funny thing is, that container was full of goods rejected by a German company due to the quality being below their standards. It had gotten shipped through the Mediterranean, the Suez Canal, Red Sea, Indian Ocean and S. China Sea, as the company was tired of the low-quality crap. When it finally got through Chinese customs, the container was pawned off on an unsuspecting other customer. China has it’s own problems, and the biggest, for me personally, is that of the Cheap China-made Crap.

    In general, after the US elites, starting with a massive effort by Bill Clinton (MFN status) gave away loads of manufacturing expertise and human capital, trade has been unfair as hell. Trump is trying to set that right against opposition from elites of all kinds. They do not like that freedom-loving American middle class, or what’s left of it.

    China WAS getting more free, but they’ve reverted. No more simply buying a SIM card on the street to use any mobile phone. One much REGISTER with the .gov. No more surfing the web at an internet cafe (if anyone does that anymore) without an ID. Then there’s the social capital thing. The Chinese are going cashless in a big way, and that’s not only going away from freedom and toward Orwellian control, but getting close to the Mark of the Beast territory.

    You never said where you live. I don’t need a street address, just Lat/Long to get me within 500 miles.

    • Replies: @d dan
    I don't deny what I wrote. But I have very little interest in Mao, I just think that he had too often been wronged by westerners. He had contributed more to China and the humanity than you guys willing to give credit to.

    You see China as a glass half empty and I see it as half full. You pick little items of regressing like requiring ID and social credit, whereas I look at big items of progressing like economic liberalization and international cooperation. In a few decades, I am sure the answer will be so obvious that there is no more dispute.

    That is also why I think it is important that US should be a friend of China. Just look at what Europe, Japan and all others are doing - while paying lip service to US alliance, all are rushing to be friendly to China. If US persists in its hostility, guess, for example, which one would China choose between Airbus and Boeing in future?

    I am currently staying in California. Not sure why is this of interest to anyone.
  28. @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    Well you want the right to "trade whatever you want, wherever you want" to be enforced by the government, so you prove your own quote at least correct in your case, you total idiot.

    And Ringo Starr was by far the most mediocre of the liverpool mediocrities. "Everything Ringo Starr has done is shit."
    -anyone with any taste

    Athletic and Whitesplosive says: “Well you want the right to “trade whatever you want, wherever you want” to be enforced by the government,”

    I do? Just how the phuck did you arrive at that particular [false] assumption,genius?

    “Regards” onebornfree

  29. @Onebornfree
    Should individuals have the right to buy and sell anything they want, to anybody they want, anywhere in the world? Of course not! We all need big daddy governments to tell us exactly what we can trade, and who we can trade with, as we’re all too stupid to figure it out for ourselves. Thank god that selfless governments, who know better than all us morons, are there to make all of our lives easier by preventing us all from buying/selling whatever we want, to anyone we want, anywhere in the world.😂

    And so it goes......

    “Regards” onebornfree

    It’s almost like the free choices of individuals have second-order effects.

    Crazy, I know.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    It’s almost like the free choices of individuals have second-order effects.

    Crazy, I know.
     

    As I pointed out the other day, freee trade creates a prisoner's dilemma.

    If you want to run a business while hiring only native, legal labor, you can only do this if ALL of your competitors are forced to do likewise. So we're not choosing between freedom and coercion. We're choosing between:

    (1) government coercion of traitors who would prefer cheap foreign labor, OR
    (2) economic coercion of patriotic business who would prefer to hire native labor at a living wage.

    For some reason, these libertoonians think that the only objectionable coercion is the government kind.

    (Note that outsourcing works the same way. As soon as any market competitor begins offshoring any part of it's production, the others must follow suit or their market share will dwindle to nothing.)

  30. @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    "Thus in this case, therefore in all cases." Libertarianism is a bad joke.

    So anything less than 50% income tax is ‘Libertarianism’?

    You socialists are the most gluttonous moochers around.

  31. Based on NAFTA alone I thought the black and Hispanic numbers would be switched. I guess that tells you how much each group really knows about free trade.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    My AGREE was for your 2nd sentence, Mike. On the first, well, yeah ...
    , @Audacious Epigone
    If NAFTA was good for Mexico, why have so many Mexicans come here since its implementation?
  32. @Pope Gregory I
    This is quite lazy. But that's pretty typical for you.

    Look at Senator Sanders' Senatorial account, and search for the word "trade" rather than the more restrictive "free trade". You'll find that he has tweeted about trade policy at least once a month throughout the campaign, the most recent tweet coming from 2nd of this month. All his comments are quite critical of what is (misleadingly) described as "free trade". That's not counting all the other times he mentions trade on TV, in stump speeches, etc.

    Thanks, corrected it in the body of the post.

    Lazy, I wish! I’m extremely busy. But everyone has 24 hours in a day, so I have to cop to being sloppy. It is interesting that he used to criticize “free trade” regularly in 2016 but never does so anymore. Also interesting that he talks about trade more on his Senate account (8m followers) than on his presidential one (10m followers).

  33. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Based on NAFTA alone I thought the black and Hispanic numbers would be switched. I guess that tells you how much each group really knows about free trade.

    My AGREE was for your 2nd sentence, Mike. On the first, well, yeah …

  34. @Thorfinnsson
    It's almost like the free choices of individuals have second-order effects.

    Crazy, I know.

    It’s almost like the free choices of individuals have second-order effects.

    Crazy, I know.

    As I pointed out the other day, freee trade creates a prisoner’s dilemma.

    If you want to run a business while hiring only native, legal labor, you can only do this if ALL of your competitors are forced to do likewise. So we’re not choosing between freedom and coercion. We’re choosing between:

    (1) government coercion of traitors who would prefer cheap foreign labor, OR
    (2) economic coercion of patriotic business who would prefer to hire native labor at a living wage.

    For some reason, these libertoonians think that the only objectionable coercion is the government kind.

    (Note that outsourcing works the same way. As soon as any market competitor begins offshoring any part of it’s production, the others must follow suit or their market share will dwindle to nothing.)

    • Agree: Thorfinnsson
  35. “Please cite the specifics of China’s violation of WTO rules – you can’t.”

    Au contraire.

    https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/news12_e/trip_05jun12_e.htm

    https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm7_e.htm

    China is not alone in dealing producers of counterfiet products

    https://www.businessinsider.com/most-counterfeit-goods-are-from-china-2013-6

    ———–

    Imagine trying to police more than 500 million people – huge task.

    http://www.spotcounterfeits.co.uk/which-countries-produce-counterfeits.html

    • Replies: @d dan
    Since entering WTO, China has been accused of WTO violation for 44 times. 23 of these were filed by U.S. and 9 by EU.

    https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/dispu_by_country_e.htm

    If you click on each of the complaint that has been adjudicated, you will see that China either complied with the complaints or settled with complainants of each case.

    Of course, there are still pending cases, and there are also accusation that has no official complaint filed (yet?) But these can best be classified as WTO disputes rather than China's WTO violations.
  36. Hatred of normal working class white people seems to be the left’s biggest motivation.

  37. @d dan

    "… aaaannnnnd, another resident Commie Mao sack-hanger heard from."
     
    Who is Mao? Oh, yes, a dead man for decades. I don't even know why is there such infatuation with him.

    As for the substance of my comment:

    Firstly, I am stating fact: China has the best compliance record on WTO ruling. So it is simply wrong for others to accuse China of violating WTO rules. Further, U.S. has the worse record, so it is double irony to accuse China of violating WTO rules. I challenge any people to prove me wrong.

    Second, trade war is ineffective. The core reason is that U.S. is losing its competitiveness. U.S. has lots of problems, those problems lies in U.S. So do the solutions. Blaming China is stupid.

    Thirdly, I believe in free trade, the freedom to trade with anyone. This is consistent with Ron Paul's idea. You might be the one that is politically bipolar.

    And finally, if you are talking about overall freedom, sorry to break it to you. China is getting more and more free each year (except in political freedom - but I don't care about criticizing Xi nor Trump). Chinese are definitely enjoying a lot more freedom comparing with the days of Mao (and of course, you just like to talk about the dead person). Whereas U.S. is going the other way. The trends are triple irony.

    Maybe you’re right about China’s compliance with WTO, I don’t know and frankly don’t care. What I do know is that China has a miserable environmental record and a long history of dumping awful and dangerous products onto the American market, including toxic dog food, toxic drywall, defective steel, children’s toys with lead paint, toothpaste with antifreeze chemicals in it, the list goes on and on. And of course, fentanyl. But I guess turning their rivers into Superfund sites and harming people overseas doesn’t upset the WTO. Sounds like the WTO needs a new mission statement.

    • Agree: Arthur Pierce
  38. The great Asian economies coming about after WWII were protectionist. America was protectionist during its economic rise up to recent “free-trade” agreements. Britain lost its economic supremacy to U.S. by the end of the 19th century after repealing the anti-free trade Corn Laws in 1840s. America maintained what Henry Clay called “The American System.”

    Which economic regime would be stronger?
    1) Zero tariffs and impediment to trade, but 100% tax on income.
    2) 100% PROSCRIPTION of foreign trade, but zero % tax on income.

    This comparison matrix should tell us that it is not trade but human volition that is the primary economic catalyst.

    While trade has advantages, great in the distant past but with the advantages diminishing every day since industrial revolution with its rise of manufacturing. The economy relies less and less on hard goods from elsewhere and more on localized resources such as manpower and brainpower. 3-D printing will accelerate this 2.5 century trend

  39. @Bragadocious
    I'm skeptical of that conservative number. Most of the conservative establishment led by the Wall Street Journal and AEI is very pro-free trade. Is Trump changing people's minds that much? I did notice in his rally tonight that talk of slapping tariffs on German goods got a big cheer.

    Conservative, Inc and actual conservatives are not the same thing, though. Did Trump lead the revolt or just run to the front of it?

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    If I may,


    He got in front of it. And should have acted in accordance with the mandate for which he was elected.

    And that mandate was:


    1. Curb the outflow of US jobs
    2. Reinvest in the US via infrastructure and cities
    3. more than curb the flow of immigrants legal or illegal
    4. reduce the US presence in needless conflicts
    5. re-examine the role of US investments in NATO
    6. re-evaluate trade agreements (NAFTA is going to disappoint), TPP and others that harm the US
    7. defend the rights of people of faith

    all of those arguments were clearly established before Candidate Trump's nomination or election.


    --------------------------------

    NAFTA transformed the Mexican economy. In less than thirty years the Mexican economy shot up more than 500%. The issue is not that Mexico is imp[overished the issue is that Mexico despite elections still operates as a mercantile monarchial system - feudalism, where that growth is held for the top percent. Which explains why despite that growth illegal immigration actually increased. The feudal system si literally exporting it;s citizens for economic and social agendas

  40. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Based on NAFTA alone I thought the black and Hispanic numbers would be switched. I guess that tells you how much each group really knows about free trade.

    If NAFTA was good for Mexico, why have so many Mexicans come here since its implementation?

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    Are we having a quid pro quo? Because I have yet to receive several answers to questions I have posed to you over the weeks.

    But just to show I am not a vindictive sort: The answer is complex, but fundamentally, I will answer with this rhetorical question:

    If spending several 100 million dollars more per year on publicly educating black students compared to white ones is good for black students, why have so many blacks failed to close the achievement gap between the two groups?
    , @Thorfinnsson
    NAFTA could be good for Mexico and still fail to equalize Mexican wages with American ones owing to domestic Mexican conditions.

    NAFTA was good for Mexican manufacturing (but not as good as expected owing to China's entry into the WTO) and commercial export-oriented agriculture (avocados, tomatoes, etc.). It was bad for traditional Mexican agricultural staples produced for the domestic market, such as corn. This wiped out a lot of Mexican peasants and facilitated their exodus to the United States in the '90s and '00s.

    But it should be noted that American wages are inevitably higher than Mexican wages for many reasons, and regardless of trade arrangements this exerts a powerful gravitational pull on Mexican labor. Large-scale immigration from Mexico began 50 years ago, long before NAFTA. The only solution to that is effective immigration control, though fortunately for us the supply is now lower as Mexico has finally undergone its "modern fertility transition".
    , @John Arthur
    Cuz its easy to come here. Mexicans are actually liked by many in the country, so when the come in mass numbers, it doesn't instigate a alt-right backlash the way that other ethnic/racial groups do.

    Given the differential in wages, then it makes complete sense why the most miserable Mexicans would come here.

    NAFTA allowed Mexico to become one of the most sophisticated manufacturing countries in the world, with an economic complexity beyond China.

    If it werent for the drug lords and corruption, Mexico might actually become a first world country.
  41. @Audacious Epigone
    If NAFTA was good for Mexico, why have so many Mexicans come here since its implementation?

    Are we having a quid pro quo? Because I have yet to receive several answers to questions I have posed to you over the weeks.

    But just to show I am not a vindictive sort: The answer is complex, but fundamentally, I will answer with this rhetorical question:

    If spending several 100 million dollars more per year on publicly educating black students compared to white ones is good for black students, why have so many blacks failed to close the achievement gap between the two groups?

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Okay, but why has the rate of migration to the US increased since NAFTA? To stick with the rhetorical analogy, wouldn't this be akin to the gap widening after the funding disparity increased?

    Hit me with the question(s) I've missed, it wasn't intentional.
  42. @WorkingClass
    That's why I voted for Nader. Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum were both free traders. The Dems went corporate with Bill Clinton. The New Democrats HATE guys like me. I'm talking about union guys.

    Observe those (former) coal miners in England voting Tory. Nobody hates today's so called left like those of us who have been betrayed. There are a lot of us among the Deplorables. But we are old and dying off. The young folks don't remember when Labor was respected and prosperous. They have been told it's all about skin color. No. It's still about Capital vs Labor and government as arbiter between them.

    If your choice is Globalists or Socialists you are truly fucked.

    If you like your Capitalism you can keep your Capitalism. But you have to share the loot (wages not welfare) with the workers.

    Carter was no working class hero. Remember he joined all the other Presidents (Reagan was already gone mentally) in the Rose Garden to support ratifying NAFTA. He just had a short run messed up by a severe recession.

  43. @Onebornfree
    Should individuals have the right to buy and sell anything they want, to anybody they want, anywhere in the world? Of course not! We all need big daddy governments to tell us exactly what we can trade, and who we can trade with, as we’re all too stupid to figure it out for ourselves. Thank god that selfless governments, who know better than all us morons, are there to make all of our lives easier by preventing us all from buying/selling whatever we want, to anyone we want, anywhere in the world.😂

    And so it goes......

    “Regards” onebornfree

    Society is more complex than just buying and selling products. There are families that need to be supported. This requires a whole host of issues that economics has nothing useful to say about.

    Is it better to have cheap products and 50% of the population unemployed or is it better to have everybody employed even it it costs each of us a little more?

    Is it better to have people working at jobs that don’t pay the bills such that they are also on welfare or is it better to have wages high enough so that people think they are self-sufficient. The kids see their dad as a great provider, the dad is proud that he takes care of his family.

    Libertarianism is the immature thinking that lacks any depth.

  44. @EliteCommInc.
    "Please cite the specifics of China’s violation of WTO rules – you can’t."


    Au contraire.

    https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/news12_e/trip_05jun12_e.htm

    https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm7_e.htm

    China is not alone in dealing producers of counterfiet products

    https://www.businessinsider.com/most-counterfeit-goods-are-from-china-2013-6

    -----------

    Imagine trying to police more than 500 million people - huge task.

    http://www.spotcounterfeits.co.uk/which-countries-produce-counterfeits.html

    Since entering WTO, China has been accused of WTO violation for 44 times. 23 of these were filed by U.S. and 9 by EU.

    https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/dispu_by_country_e.htm

    If you click on each of the complaint that has been adjudicated, you will see that China either complied with the complaints or settled with complainants of each case.

    Of course, there are still pending cases, and there are also accusation that has no official complaint filed (yet?) But these can best be classified as WTO disputes rather than China’s WTO violations.

  45. @Achmed E. Newman
    You are right, Mr. Dan, that I have disagreed on that one Ron Paul belief in unlimited free trade (not the post in question that I saw your comments under). Maybe we are both bipolar, as I distinctly remember reading your support of all things China, including the Mao era, under the Godfree Roberts posts, and J. Derbyshire ones (maybe Fred Reed too). Do you deny that?

    The Chinese government cheats like hell on everything and that includes trade. I know personally of a whole container of goods held up at the docks in Shenzhen for over 1/2 a year, just to put the hurt on the imported goods. Funny thing is, that container was full of goods rejected by a German company due to the quality being below their standards. It had gotten shipped through the Mediterranean, the Suez Canal, Red Sea, Indian Ocean and S. China Sea, as the company was tired of the low-quality crap. When it finally got through Chinese customs, the container was pawned off on an unsuspecting other customer. China has it's own problems, and the biggest, for me personally, is that of the Cheap China-made Crap.

    In general, after the US elites, starting with a massive effort by Bill Clinton (MFN status) gave away loads of manufacturing expertise and human capital, trade has been unfair as hell. Trump is trying to set that right against opposition from elites of all kinds. They do not like that freedom-loving American middle class, or what's left of it.

    China WAS getting more free, but they've reverted. No more simply buying a SIM card on the street to use any mobile phone. One much REGISTER with the .gov. No more surfing the web at an internet cafe (if anyone does that anymore) without an ID. Then there's the social capital thing. The Chinese are going cashless in a big way, and that's not only going away from freedom and toward Orwellian control, but getting close to the Mark of the Beast territory.

    You never said where you live. I don't need a street address, just Lat/Long to get me within 500 miles.

    I don’t deny what I wrote. But I have very little interest in Mao, I just think that he had too often been wronged by westerners. He had contributed more to China and the humanity than you guys willing to give credit to.

    You see China as a glass half empty and I see it as half full. You pick little items of regressing like requiring ID and social credit, whereas I look at big items of progressing like economic liberalization and international cooperation. In a few decades, I am sure the answer will be so obvious that there is no more dispute.

    That is also why I think it is important that US should be a friend of China. Just look at what Europe, Japan and all others are doing – while paying lip service to US alliance, all are rushing to be friendly to China. If US persists in its hostility, guess, for example, which one would China choose between Airbus and Boeing in future?

    I am currently staying in California. Not sure why is this of interest to anyone.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    I agree completely that the US should maintain friendly relations with China (and Russia). That should not preclude some redoing of unfair trade deals, though I see no reason for anti-China rhetoric to go along with it.

    I asked your location because I wanted to know if you were writing in from China. That changes things.

    See you on another Ron Paul thread.
  46. @Onebornfree
    Should individuals have the right to buy and sell anything they want, to anybody they want, anywhere in the world? Of course not! We all need big daddy governments to tell us exactly what we can trade, and who we can trade with, as we’re all too stupid to figure it out for ourselves. Thank god that selfless governments, who know better than all us morons, are there to make all of our lives easier by preventing us all from buying/selling whatever we want, to anyone we want, anywhere in the world.😂

    And so it goes......

    “Regards” onebornfree

    Free trade destroys the family, and the nation. No nation can survive it long.

  47. @Audacious Epigone
    If NAFTA was good for Mexico, why have so many Mexicans come here since its implementation?

    NAFTA could be good for Mexico and still fail to equalize Mexican wages with American ones owing to domestic Mexican conditions.

    NAFTA was good for Mexican manufacturing (but not as good as expected owing to China’s entry into the WTO) and commercial export-oriented agriculture (avocados, tomatoes, etc.). It was bad for traditional Mexican agricultural staples produced for the domestic market, such as corn. This wiped out a lot of Mexican peasants and facilitated their exodus to the United States in the ’90s and ’00s.

    But it should be noted that American wages are inevitably higher than Mexican wages for many reasons, and regardless of trade arrangements this exerts a powerful gravitational pull on Mexican labor. Large-scale immigration from Mexico began 50 years ago, long before NAFTA. The only solution to that is effective immigration control, though fortunately for us the supply is now lower as Mexico has finally undergone its “modern fertility transition”.

  48. @Audacious Epigone
    Conservative, Inc and actual conservatives are not the same thing, though. Did Trump lead the revolt or just run to the front of it?

    If I may,

    He got in front of it. And should have acted in accordance with the mandate for which he was elected.

    And that mandate was:

    1. Curb the outflow of US jobs
    2. Reinvest in the US via infrastructure and cities
    3. more than curb the flow of immigrants legal or illegal
    4. reduce the US presence in needless conflicts
    5. re-examine the role of US investments in NATO
    6. re-evaluate trade agreements (NAFTA is going to disappoint), TPP and others that harm the US
    7. defend the rights of people of faith

    all of those arguments were clearly established before Candidate Trump’s nomination or election.

    ——————————–

    NAFTA transformed the Mexican economy. In less than thirty years the Mexican economy shot up more than 500%. The issue is not that Mexico is imp[overished the issue is that Mexico despite elections still operates as a mercantile monarchial system – feudalism, where that growth is held for the top percent. Which explains why despite that growth illegal immigration actually increased. The feudal system si literally exporting it;s citizens for economic and social agendas

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    There is a number

    8. but I am biting my tongue on that issue
  49. “The only solution to that is effective immigration control, though fortunately for us the supply is now lower as Mexico has finally undergone its “modern fertility transition”.

    I prefer to be honest about what is happening. We imported a host Southern Hemisphere instructors for the purposes of higher learning. They taught in out history and social sciences programs and one of the consistent themes was the deconstructive treatments they layed on their own they layed out here and for more than thirty years they have been teaching thousand of US students that the US literally stole the southwest. And that Mexico formerly a Spanish colony and the others have been targets of US oppression always and forever. However, if one looks at the details it’s clear the oppression save in rare instances has been internal and the US has repeatedly attempted to repair dysfunction —

    At any rate we have millions of US citizens believing that nonsense they were taught and democrats and no small number of republicans actually don’t get it — what is happening at the border is a low level war and the US is losing by her own choices.

    —————————————-

    “Libertarianism is the immature thinking that lacks any depth.”

    No means of wrestling with complex realities. Nice in theory, instructive, innovative, but as any manner of actual feasible structuration implementation —

  50. @EliteCommInc.
    If I may,


    He got in front of it. And should have acted in accordance with the mandate for which he was elected.

    And that mandate was:


    1. Curb the outflow of US jobs
    2. Reinvest in the US via infrastructure and cities
    3. more than curb the flow of immigrants legal or illegal
    4. reduce the US presence in needless conflicts
    5. re-examine the role of US investments in NATO
    6. re-evaluate trade agreements (NAFTA is going to disappoint), TPP and others that harm the US
    7. defend the rights of people of faith

    all of those arguments were clearly established before Candidate Trump's nomination or election.


    --------------------------------

    NAFTA transformed the Mexican economy. In less than thirty years the Mexican economy shot up more than 500%. The issue is not that Mexico is imp[overished the issue is that Mexico despite elections still operates as a mercantile monarchial system - feudalism, where that growth is held for the top percent. Which explains why despite that growth illegal immigration actually increased. The feudal system si literally exporting it;s citizens for economic and social agendas

    There is a number

    8. but I am biting my tongue on that issue

  51. @Audacious Epigone
    If NAFTA was good for Mexico, why have so many Mexicans come here since its implementation?

    Cuz its easy to come here. Mexicans are actually liked by many in the country, so when the come in mass numbers, it doesn’t instigate a alt-right backlash the way that other ethnic/racial groups do.

    Given the differential in wages, then it makes complete sense why the most miserable Mexicans would come here.

    NAFTA allowed Mexico to become one of the most sophisticated manufacturing countries in the world, with an economic complexity beyond China.

    If it werent for the drug lords and corruption, Mexico might actually become a first world country.

  52. “Cuz its easy to come here. Mexicans are actually liked by many in the country, so when the come in mass numbers, it doesn’t instigate a alt-right backlash the way that other ethnic/racial groups do.”

    I am not sue you have been paying attention to most of the country, muchless the alt right. It’s not really about liking. That’s a separate issue. This about the US and what that means. It’s about wait a minute we did share with mexico and the return has not been forthcoming, least in that return was decreased immigration that undermines the US economy.

    Likeability, ask those parents whose kids are loaded with students who don’t speak english. As the contractors who are forced to compete with illegal alien businesses.

    I think anyone paying attention to the last election — expressed their backlash.

  53. @d dan
    I don't deny what I wrote. But I have very little interest in Mao, I just think that he had too often been wronged by westerners. He had contributed more to China and the humanity than you guys willing to give credit to.

    You see China as a glass half empty and I see it as half full. You pick little items of regressing like requiring ID and social credit, whereas I look at big items of progressing like economic liberalization and international cooperation. In a few decades, I am sure the answer will be so obvious that there is no more dispute.

    That is also why I think it is important that US should be a friend of China. Just look at what Europe, Japan and all others are doing - while paying lip service to US alliance, all are rushing to be friendly to China. If US persists in its hostility, guess, for example, which one would China choose between Airbus and Boeing in future?

    I am currently staying in California. Not sure why is this of interest to anyone.

    I agree completely that the US should maintain friendly relations with China (and Russia). That should not preclude some redoing of unfair trade deals, though I see no reason for anti-China rhetoric to go along with it.

    I asked your location because I wanted to know if you were writing in from China. That changes things.

    See you on another Ron Paul thread.

  54. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Are we having a quid pro quo? Because I have yet to receive several answers to questions I have posed to you over the weeks.

    But just to show I am not a vindictive sort: The answer is complex, but fundamentally, I will answer with this rhetorical question:

    If spending several 100 million dollars more per year on publicly educating black students compared to white ones is good for black students, why have so many blacks failed to close the achievement gap between the two groups?

    Okay, but why has the rate of migration to the US increased since NAFTA? To stick with the rhetorical analogy, wouldn’t this be akin to the gap widening after the funding disparity increased?

    Hit me with the question(s) I’ve missed, it wasn’t intentional.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    The availability of welfare entitlements to illegals in the US has increased since then also, has it not? As well as the overall decriminalization of illegal entry and employment within the US? The decriminalization of further criminal activity within the US? The narco-violence in Mexico has also increased, has it not? Governmental corruption continues unabated, correct? Illegal migration trends are probably not best explained citing merely one factor.

    How was NAFTA bad for Mexico, to the extent that it would have Mexicans holding that perception (more than blacks do anyway; Has NAFTA been good for blacks to the extent that they perceive?)
  55. @Audacious Epigone
    Okay, but why has the rate of migration to the US increased since NAFTA? To stick with the rhetorical analogy, wouldn't this be akin to the gap widening after the funding disparity increased?

    Hit me with the question(s) I've missed, it wasn't intentional.

    The availability of welfare entitlements to illegals in the US has increased since then also, has it not? As well as the overall decriminalization of illegal entry and employment within the US? The decriminalization of further criminal activity within the US? The narco-violence in Mexico has also increased, has it not? Governmental corruption continues unabated, correct? Illegal migration trends are probably not best explained citing merely one factor.

    How was NAFTA bad for Mexico, to the extent that it would have Mexicans holding that perception (more than blacks do anyway; Has NAFTA been good for blacks to the extent that they perceive?)

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Blacks seem to reflexively like what heritage white Americans dislike and dislike what heritage white Americans like. Blacks are also more enthusiastic about immigration than Hispanics, presumably for the same reason.
  56. @MikeatMikedotMike
    The availability of welfare entitlements to illegals in the US has increased since then also, has it not? As well as the overall decriminalization of illegal entry and employment within the US? The decriminalization of further criminal activity within the US? The narco-violence in Mexico has also increased, has it not? Governmental corruption continues unabated, correct? Illegal migration trends are probably not best explained citing merely one factor.

    How was NAFTA bad for Mexico, to the extent that it would have Mexicans holding that perception (more than blacks do anyway; Has NAFTA been good for blacks to the extent that they perceive?)

    Blacks seem to reflexively like what heritage white Americans dislike and dislike what heritage white Americans like. Blacks are also more enthusiastic about immigration than Hispanics, presumably for the same reason.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    Ok, the question was rhetorical. Obviously blacks like whatever whites don't. Their identity as a group depends on that behavior. It doesn't address the first paragraph, however.
  57. @Audacious Epigone
    Blacks seem to reflexively like what heritage white Americans dislike and dislike what heritage white Americans like. Blacks are also more enthusiastic about immigration than Hispanics, presumably for the same reason.

    Ok, the question was rhetorical. Obviously blacks like whatever whites don’t. Their identity as a group depends on that behavior. It doesn’t address the first paragraph, however.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Those points are well taken. Welfare entitlements, yes. Enforcement being weaker is hard for me to gauge. The change in ease of being a criminal in Mexico over the last twenty years is probably larger than the change in ease of being a criminal in the US.
  58. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Ok, the question was rhetorical. Obviously blacks like whatever whites don't. Their identity as a group depends on that behavior. It doesn't address the first paragraph, however.

    Those points are well taken. Welfare entitlements, yes. Enforcement being weaker is hard for me to gauge. The change in ease of being a criminal in Mexico over the last twenty years is probably larger than the change in ease of being a criminal in the US.

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