The Unz Review: An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersAudacious Epigone Blog
The Enthusiasm Gap
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

It’s hard to find positive indicators regarding Trump’s reelection chances, but voter enthusiasm is one of them:

Most Trump voters are “enthusiastic” about backing the president while a plurality of Biden voters are merely “satisfied, but not enthusiastic” about the former vice president. And while only a handful of Trump voters, 6%, are dissatisfied or upset with him, some 16% of Biden backers feel that way about their guy. These are presumably Sanders voters who feel inclined to “vote blue no matter who”, but just barely. A meaningful ‘stimulus’ payment or promise of universal healthcare wouldn’t only dissuade many from voting, it would flip some to the president.

 
• Category: Culture/Society, Ideology • Tags: Election 2020, Healthcare, Polling 
Hide 89 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
    []
  1. I think you’re right about Medicare for All, AE. Both Biden and Harris in their debate points hit Trump on “he is going to take away healthcare from people with pre-existing conditions/take away insurance from 20MM people.”

    Both those charges went unanswered by a VP and P who kept focusing on “court packing.” Sure, that will be a problem,but it’s not existential like losing healthcare in a nation with the medical scam industry we are stuck with.

    Offer everyone and anyone the right to be covered by Medicare by paying a fee if under 65. Publicize it, constantly, and make the point that “the only jobs Biden ever created were medical insurance bureaucrats made wealthier by Obamacare.” Medicare isn’t bad at cost control, except in drugs.

    Don’t make other insurance illegal, and point out that this is how you are different from Democratic plans to eliminate private health insurance.

    Sit back, and collect the votes.

  2. @TomSchmidt

    I pretty much agree. Our current insurance system is both horribly inefficient and directly responsible for many blatantly ineffectual health decisions (like being forced to go to a more distant hospital). I don’t think Medicare for All would much reduce our ridiculously high healthcare costs, but it shouldn’t increase them either. The high costs are caused by much deeper issues over which insurance is merely a veneer. Medicare would be way simpler, it would help companies at the verge of being over 50 employees which are currently getting shafted, it would reduce the need for bloated corporate HR departments and make compensation more transparent. And a bunch of other minor positive effects.

    My one reservation is that making it a government department based in D.C. would represent yet another massive transfusion of wealth to the already ostentatiously opulent capital, away from the struggling provinces. If medicare for all is going to be a thing, it should be operated entirely out of other cities, and preferably headquartered somewhere that’s been screwed over by different government policies (e.g. rust belt).

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
  3. Thomm says:

    One might be amazed at how much socialism is advocated on this supposed ‘right-wing’ website, but that is only if one makes the mistake of thinking the ideologies here are right-wing. If one goes by economic views, this blog is wholly left-wing. Horrendous ideas like a $25/hr minimum wage, UBI, and other such socialism-in-all-but-name are touted here every day. Ron Unz based his political career (such as it was) on a $12/hour minimum wage in 1998, despite running as a Republican. To the surprise of no one except Mr. Unz, advocating a far-left position while running as a Republican, that too in CA, failed to gain him any voter support.

    On enthusiasm alone, Trump is set to win, as he should. A quick glance at videos of the two town halls on YouTube reveals that Trump has a 3:1 upvote ratio, while Biden is 1:2. This is despite the fact that non-US people also upvote/downvote videos, and most of those are Democrats.

    Trump’s videos also have 15 times as many views as Biden’s on the same channel, but that does not imply Trump support. Fortunately, the upvote ratio does.

    Since Audie Baby has predicted that Biden will win, that means Trump will win.

    • Replies: @davidgmillsatty
  4. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.
    Joseph Stalin

    • Agree: Adam Smith
  5. Catdog says:

    Nate Plastic from 538 claims that enthusiasm is totally irrelevant. Dems could be as enthusiastic about Biden as a trip to the dentist and he’ll still win because he’s polling higher, according to Nate.

    “I don’t care how much higher a quality is that doesn’t matter [Enthusiasm].”

    “But basically: I don’t think enthusiasm is a terribly meaningful indicator above and beyond what is already reflected in polls.

    Sanders’s voters were more enthusiastic than Biden’s in the primaries. But he’s actually tended to underperform his polls. Sometimes higher enthusiasm means you have a narrower base, and the other candidate has more room to turn out undecideds, etc.”

    “The fact that Democrats are worried about an enthusiasm gap because of 2016 could easily help Biden because it will scare Democrats into voting.”

  6. Talha says:

    One thing this doesn’t measure is the enthusiasm by which they hate the other guy. For many DNC voters, the motivation to see Trump kicked out may be enough to get them out to the polls.

    Peace.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    , @Jay Fink
  7. Stick says:

    So will Nanzi allow a stimulus? Could Trump just direct one without Nanzi? What would Nanzi do in response? Impeach Him? Fun Times.

  8. I think you’re right about Medicare for All, AE. Both Biden and Harris in their debate points hit Trump on “he is going to take away healthcare from people with pre-existing conditions/take away insurance from 20MM people.”

    Both those charges went unanswered by a VP and P who kept focusing on “court packing.”

    Trump should have taken a independent position on health care from the beginning. In fact he was more of a Democrat on health care before he ran for president.

    Moving closer to the GOP position was a huge mistake.

    It undoubtedly caused him to lose independents and even some conservatives.

    The GOP also needs to change their position. Polls show that most Americans do not want the ACA dismantled. They should be trying to improve it and not for political gain but because it is simply the right thing to do. In fact all conservatives need to drop the idiotic libertarian attitude on health care.

    Even if Trump wins the GOP is still doomed unless they change their strategy. They seem to think there is some eternal White middle class that will always vote for them. They lost California with that attitude.

    It’s up to Trump and his supporters. I’d be shocked if he can pull off a second win.

    Drugged up Biden did better in the debate than Trump was expecting and we still haven’t seen a response to that.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    , @Mark G.
  9. A123 says:

    The two key numbers are:

    — Net 24% “Enthusiastic” for Trump. These voters will climb significant obstacles to make sure they get their votes in.

    — Net 9% “Dissatisfied” against Biden. Any inconvenience and those potential voters will quickly become non-voters.

    Yet more leading indicators that Trump’s 2nd Term is inevitable.
    ___

    There is no evidence that Americans trust Biden to do anything on healthcare.

    Biden was arm-in-arm with Barack Obama when he lied, “If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor”. With that track record, everyone understands that Biden is lying about pre-existing conditions in a deliberate & irrational attempt to create unwarranted fear.

    Biden’s total lack credibility on healthcare is driving independents and swing voters to Trump.

    PEACE 😇

  10. Mr. Epigone says:

    A meaningful ‘stimulus’ payment or promise of universal healthcare wouldn’t only dissuade many from voting, it would flip some to the president.

    I say:

    The filthy scams known as Paycheck Protection Program and the 600 dollars extra cash in the unemployment checks and the Fed buying corporate bonds and zero interest rate policy and all the other swindles and scams from the Ruling Class have ‘stimulated’ a whole boat load of anger and bitterness and rancor and jealousy and irritation and I think the nasty globalizer goons in the rancid and treasonous Ruling Class of the American Empire have done it on purpose to keep the American people frazzled and angry and bitter as all Hell.

    Cut everybody who is eligible a check for ten thousand dollars a month — the Pewitt Conjured Loot Portion — and be done with it, DAMMIT!

    The dollar is a dodo after the last asset bubble popped over a decade ago so it don’t matter anyway. Kill the dollar and create a new one called the Washington/Jackson dollar and after all they’re just Federal Reserve Bank notes anyhow. I don’t mean Claudell or Reggie either, although they were excellent baseball players in their day, with Reggie piling up Hall of Fame numbers.

    No more filthy scams that benefit some mugs and not others. The airline and airport industries are all lease and fly by night financial scams of monumental proportions and it is just too much fraud and corruption. They say ‘bail out the airlines’ but what they mean is ‘bail out the financializers or the banks’ or some other damn scam.

    The Pewitt Conjured Loot Portion avoids the scams and the swindles and the corruption and the fraud and the PCLP doles out the electronically created cash evenly and fairly.

    The Pewitt Conjured Loot Portion(PCLP) will pay each American who has all blood ancestry born in colonial America or the USA before 1924 a cool ten thousand dollars a month. The US Treasury and the Federal Reserve Bank shall work together to conjure up the cash out of thin air, just like the ruling class is doing now.

    DESTROY THE REPUBLICAN PARTY NOW!

    WHITE CORE AMERICA RISING!

  11. @John Johnson

    Mr John Johnson says:

    Even if Trump wins the GOP is still doomed unless they change their strategy. They seem to think there is some eternal White middle class that will always vote for them. They lost California with that attitude.

    I say:

    I told Teddy Cruz at a presidential primary town hall event in 2015 that the Republican Party lost California because of mass legal immigration and mass illegal immigration and Teddy the Princeton debater Goldman Sachs Hubby avoided and ignored the part about California.

    Here I am in 2015 telling US Senator Teddy Cruz that the Republican Party in California was wiped out by mass legal immigration and mass illegal immigration.

    Charles Pewitt confronts Teddy Cruz on trade and immigration at a 2015 presidential primary town hall:

    Tweet from 2015:

  12. I ENTHUSIASTICALLY say that Trump and the rancid Republican Party can go straight to Hell!

  13. @Charles Pewitt

    Why would you expect a Cuban-Canadian to be in favor of cutting back on immigration to the United States.
    Cruz should be deported to whichever of those hellholes will take him. Though I suspect that would be the start of the Canadian-Cuban War where the loser has to accept him.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
  14. Mark G. says:
    @John Johnson

    They should be trying to improve it and not for political gain but because it is simply the right thing to do.

    What would improve it consist of? If you give insurance to people with pre-existing conditions then everyone would just wait until they have a serious health problem and then get it. Insurance only works when most people who have it don’t need it. You could fine people for not getting it but the fine would have to be as high as the cost of the insurance. If the fine was lower, people would just pay the fine until they get sick and then get the insurance.

    So let’s say we just give everyone free health care because it’s popular with the voters. Everyone needs food too. You don’t want people to starve to death, do you? So give everyone free food. Everyone needs shelter, don’t they? You don’t want anyone to freeze to death in the winter, right? Buy everyone a house. What would be the difference between medical care and these other items? What would be the philosophical objections to the government not providing everything people need? What would be the cost? Is there a ceiling on how much money the government spends? We run trillion dollar a year deficits now. Is two trillion ok? How about four trillion? Can we raise taxes without productive people deciding they are not going to work so hard or move to another country? Are you going to just print the money up? Would that work in the long run? If we can print up money to pay for free medical care can we print up enough money to give to people so they don’t have to work? Why not?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @John Johnson
  15. @TomSchmidt

    Switzerland is the only civilized country with a private health-care system vaguely comparable to the US’s. Except they have one thing the US system don’t have.

    Price and wage controls. Doctors can only make, oh, $300,000 or so a year (penury) instead of millions. Drugs don’t cost an arm and a leg. Hospital stays, diagnostics, etc., have their prices fixed low at cost.

    Not even mentioned in anybody’s discussion anywhere. Not even mentioned.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
  16. @Talha

    That’s for sure. I am ever amazed at the hysteria he engenders in normally civil people. All because they don’t “like” him. Not because of any particular policy, not that they know any of his.

    It’s all because he’s a boor. Because he is a boor, and he is, therefore he is bad bad bad.

    The problem is a particularly Western one. We are taught, inculcated, indundated with training to judge everything by “like” and “dislike.” No “content of character.” No “efficacious” or “detrimental.” No “actions speak louder than words.” No “right” and “wrong.”

    Just “like” and “dislike.” If you “like” a candidate a little better than another candidate, then you vote for him. If you “dislike” a candidate a little more than the other candidate, you vote against him. This is how it is. This is how it has ever been. This is how it will always be.

    Policy is for irrelevant, expendable geeks.

    Yes, I am afraid the hysteria against Trump will bring out these troops like abortion brings out the other troops, and they will decide the election.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Jay Fink
  17. Talha says:
    @obwandiyag

    That’s for sure. I am ever amazed at the hysteria he engenders in normally civil people. All because they don’t “like” him. Not because of any particular policy, not that they know any of his.

    Exactly. It’s really something else. Some people I’ve come across, even when you point out that; “You know, I don’t like the guy either, but I don’t really think that statement of his can be interpreted like that in lieu of the many other clear statements he’s made.”

    They look at you as if you just said you want to let Charles Manson out of prison or something.

    Peace.

  18. @Chris Mallory

    Mr. Chris Mallory says:

    Why would you expect a Cuban-Canadian to be in favor of cutting back on immigration to the United States.

    Cruz should be deported to whichever of those hellholes will take him. Though I suspect that would be the start of the Canadian-Cuban War where the loser has to accept him.

    I say:

    Teddy Goldman Sachs Hubby Cruz gets on my nerves but good. Teddy Cruz can’t push away from the table if it has delicious pulled pork on it and Teddy Cruz has a bloated mug and now that Teddy Cruz has grown an Orson Welles beard to give himself the appearance of a jawline. It’s an outrage and just like something some damn Canadian would pull.

    This brings up the scenario whereby the Democrat Party and the Republican Party immediately begin an internecine civil war within each party after the election is decided. That’s to say that the intensity of animosity between rival factions within each party exceedes that of any party vs party animosity. The dust will settle from the election and each side starts brawling with the closest tribe and the two party system begins to collapse. First past the post produces two party systems but sometimes those systems break down. Civil War II could start multiple ways.

    I have more disdain and scorn for Teddy Cruz and Ben Sasse and Tom Cotton and Josh Hawley and all the other Republican Party politician whores than I do for any Democrat Party politician whore.

    I wrote this in July of 2019 about Canadian slob Teddy Goldman Sachs Hubby Cruz:

    Teddy Cruz Belongs To The Coalition Of The Canadian Cuckservatives

    Teddy Cruz should keep his phucking mouth shut tight like a bastard when it comes to Tennessee or Nathan Bedford Forrest.

    This Canadian pussy boy puke Teddy Cruz is now attacking the memory and sacred honor of General Nathan Bedford Forrest. If Canadian cuck boy Teddy Cruz saw Nathan Bedford Forrest on horseback galloping towards him while waving his sword at Teddy Cruz’s fat face, you can be sure that Teddy Cruz would piss his pants.

    This rancid Republican Party turd Teddy Cruz pushes nation-wrecking mass legal immigration and legalization(amnesty) for illegal alien invaders.

    Teddy Cruz once co-wrote an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal with Paul Ryan that called for giving Obama full trade promotion authority to continue on with the negotiations for Obama’s sovereignty-sapping, job-killing Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal scam.

    I hereby challenge snot-nosed punk Teddy Cruz to a 4 hour debate on Nathan Bedford Forrest and mass legal immigration and illegal immigration and trade deal scams and endless overseas war and American national identity and multiculturalism and any other damn thing that needs saying to this rat puke Teddy Cruz!

    I would rhetorically pound the stuffing out of globalizer coward boy Teddy Cruz in a debate!

    I call on the great people of Texas to immediately recall and replace the treasonous rat politician whore Teddy Cruz.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-coalition-of-the-fringes-circular-firing-squad/#comment-3327958

    Tweet from 2019:

  19. Jay Fink says:
    @Talha

    All of my Trump supporting friends point out that Trump attracts big crowds at all his rallys while Biden hardly attracts anyone. This gives them a strong sense of comfort that Trump is going to win. What I tell them (and for some reason they can’t comprehend) is that crowd sizes mean nothing. No one has passion for Joe Biden so of course they don’t show up. What they do have is a hysterical level of hatred towards Trump. They are not voting for Biden, they are voting against Trump.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @A123
    , @Corvinus
  20. Jay Fink says:
    @obwandiyag

    Part of it is media fueled and more people than not do and think what they are told. That’s why 2016 was so upsetting to the elites. They were shocked and outraged that the people disobeyed their programming.

  21. Talha says:
    @Jay Fink

    What they do have is a hysterical level of hatred towards Trump.

    This, I personally believe, will decide this election. I think many people, last time, around voted against Clinton and gave Trump the victory. She was hated (justifiably) by a LOT of people on the right.

    They are not voting for Biden, they are voting against Trump.

    That’s exactly what I was telling people that were surprised that Trump won last time around; “They are not voting for Trump, they are voting against Clinton.”

    I think Michael Moore mentioned that the election of Trump was the biggest F*** YOU to the ruling elite in electoral history. Not because people thought he was a great savior, but because they were tired of what the current leaders were doing.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @usNthem
    , @Talha
    , @Talha
  22. A123 says:
    @Jay Fink

    No one has passion for Joe Biden so of course they don’t show up. What they do have is a hysterical level of hatred towards Trump. They are not voting for Biden, they are voting against Trump.

    So your position is… People doing nothing are more enthusiastic than the those who are actually turning out?

    That makes no sense. If there was enthusiastic hatred for Trump, there would be rallies. If Biden rallies provided inadequate hatred, there would be other successful Hysterical Hate rallies. The number of hate rallies is quite small, and may have actually flipped Minnesota to a Trump state.

    The reality of the situation is mild & superficial dislike for Trump that does not promote action. This lethargy is in direct contrast to those who like Trump are willing to go to great lengths to demonstrate their positive beliefs.

    PEACE 😇

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @John Johnson
  23. usNthem says:
    @Talha

    And so let’s vote for Biden so we can get back to what we voted against in 2016. Idiocracy indeed.

  24. Altai says:

    Trump has an actual platform for some kind of change, Biden doesn’t. In essence, Biden can’t answer the simple question ‘Why do you want to be president?’

    Biden doesn’t promise change, even for those who like the status quo (Gen X and up upper middle class and up) he doesn’t offer anything to be enthusiastic about, the status quo is already the status quo. He’s just ‘not Trump’.

    • Replies: @Justvisiting
  25. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Daughter of first wife and third wife show how some people voting for either candidate are feeling:

    Keep smiling…

  26. Corvinus says:

    “A meaningful ‘stimulus’ payment or promise of universal healthcare wouldn’t only dissuade many from voting, it would flip some to the president.”

    Um, no, it would not. People long ago made up their mind about whether or not to support Trump. Voters understand completely the backgrounds and positions of two candidates. They are not going to flip merely because Trump all of the sudden supports those things, and calls for Congress to immediately act.

  27. Corvinus says:
    @Jay Fink

    “All of my Trump supporting friends point out that Trump attracts big crowds at all his rallys while Biden hardly attracts anyone.”

    Sure, when they are paid to.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/shell-workers-donald-trump-paid-attendees-rallies-2019-8

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/candace-owens-blexit-group-pays-attendees-travel-trumps/story?id=73531036

  28. Dr. Doom says:

    The Lugenpresse is protecting Biden like he’s a broken shelled egg.

    That Hunter Biden story is actionable. A real Attorney General would INDICT.

    Trump has this won already. There is no excitement for spoiled vanilla Stupid Joe.

    This idea that people will go out and vote based on Trump Hatred is a Media Wish.

    I doubt people will stand in Line for Biden/Harris.

    Stupid Joe is bizness as usual. 47 years of living in The Swamp.

    The Lugenpresse is crippling itself trying to push this wheelless old fogey to the Finish Line.

  29. Arclight says:

    The fact the McConnell is not going to pass a stimulus and other GOP senators are not on TV arguing otherwise says they think it doesn’t matter one way or another towards Trump’s fate…or theirs for that matter. The Senate is almost certainly going to be in Dem hands in January.

  30. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Mark G.

    So let’s say we just give everyone free health care because it’s popular with the voters. Everyone needs food too. You don’t want people to starve to death, do you? So give everyone free food. Everyone needs shelter, don’t they? You don’t want anyone to freeze to death in the winter, right? Buy everyone a house. What would be the difference between medical care and these other items? What would be the philosophical objections to the government not providing everything people need?

    I don’t have a philosophical objection to a government making sure that nobody starves and nobody is homeless. I don’t have a philosophical objection to a government making sure that everybody has access to healthcare.

    I understand that many right-wingers think it’s good for some people to starve and for some people to be homeless because poor people should be punished for being poor. I do have a philosophical objection to that.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  31. @Charles Pewitt

    I told Teddy Cruz at a presidential primary town hall event in 2015 that the Republican Party lost California because of mass legal immigration and mass illegal immigration and Teddy the Princeton debater Goldman Sachs Hubby avoided and ignored the part about California.

    That’s only half the story. The other half is that college educated Whites in California are solidly liberal and the GOP has done nothing to address this.

    I can dig up the numbers if you want. College educated Whites in California left the GOP and so did half the wealthy. It was never Whites vs Hispanics.

    It didn’t help that the California GOP insisted upon running people like Whitman instead of actual centrists. They just kept to the failed strategy of running a corporate whore when the polls said it was a bad idea.

  32. @Mark G.

    What would improve it consist of?

    Tax the wealthy and cover more people.

    If you give insurance to people with pre-existing conditions then everyone would just wait until they have a serious health problem and then get it.

    That’s why the ACA had a tax penalty. It really didn’t make sense to remove it. The whole plan is basically a deal with insurance companies and an expansion of medicaid. The GOP should have fixed it and taken credit. The ACA was modeled after a state system under Romney but then he and the GOP made the mistake of moving away from it.

    So let’s say we just give everyone free health care because it’s popular with the voters. Everyone needs food too. You don’t want people to starve to death, do you?

    No one starves to death in America. There is SNAP and food banks.

    The European right and nationalist parties all support public health care. It’s only in the US that we have a party defending this crazy system.

    Polls show that the people want the system changed. The GOP continues to stick its head in the sand. It needs to at least try to improve the system or continue to send easy votes to Democrats. Try to reduce costs somewhere instead of just defending the status quo.

    AE is absolutely right that Trump could have routed Biden on health care. It would have been a genius move. Break with the GOP on health care and go all in on a Canadian system. Trump wouldn’t lose any of his fans and would win over moderates and even many Democrats.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @Mark G.
  33. @A123

    That makes no sense. If there was enthusiastic hatred for Trump, there would be rallies. If Biden rallies provided inadequate hatred, there would be other successful Hysterical Hate rallies.

    Hate rallies independent of Biden? That’s a normal Friday night get together for liberals.

    They aren’t going to show up for a Biden rally because no one wants to hear him talk. He is just a Manchurian candidate that only has one job which is to beat Trump.

    The reality of the situation is mild & superficial dislike for Trump that does not promote action.

    Yes and that is why Trump is in trouble. TDS is real and they only need to be motivated enough to vote.

    It is not a good sign that urban voters in Georgia are showing up early and in lines.

    Those are not Trump voters.

  34. @John Johnson

    Tax the wealthy and cover more people.

    In your view, how wealthy is wealthy enough to tax?

    That is, would you boost the tax against a couple earning $100,000, or $1 million, or $10 million, or $100 million, or some other figure? Or would you boost the tax on some other basis?

    Also, how heavy should the tax be, and (if you choose to explain) why?

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  35. @dfordoom

    I understand that many right-wingers think it’s good for some people to starve and for some people to be homeless because poor people should be punished for being poor.

    I think people should be punished for acting stupidly.

    If those acts have resulted in them becoming and staying poor, the consequences should include not leaving any offspring to continue their bad tendencies.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  36. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Mr. Rational

    I think people should be punished for acting stupidly.

    One minor problem is that people can do stupid things and their families suffer. Is it OK for kids to be homeless because Mommy made a stupid decision?

    Also, if a corporation makes a stupid decision and faces bankruptcy as a result should the government bail them out? Or just let them go bust? Because one of the reasons right-wing parties like the GOP are hated is that they believe in bailing out billionaires and mega-corporations that make stupid decisions while they hate the idea of bailing out ordinary people who behave stupidly.

    Personally I find it difficult to comprehend people who like the idea of punishing other people.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    , @Jay Fink
  37. Mark G. says:
    @John Johnson

    Tax the wealthy and cover more people.

    That won’t work. Sweden tried to pay for free health care and other free items by raising taxes on the rich. They either cut back working, engaged in income tax evasion, or left the country. The Swedish government then had to replace it with increased taxes on the working class. American proponents of socialism point to more benefits in Scandinavian countries than here but are silent about the fact that the working class there pays more taxes than the working class pays here. They do that because they are dishonest. If you are paying for your free health care with more taxes then it’s not really free is it?

    If socialism can’t work in a country full of high IQ Swedes how is it going to work in a country where a third of the population are low IQ blacks and Hispanics, meaning the U.S.? When the wealthy start fleeing are you going to have guards at the border shoot them like the Soviet Union? That’s where you are heading for.

    That’s why the ACA had a tax penalty. It really didn’t make sense to remove it.

    When the penalty was there, it was lower than the cost of insurance so people would pay the penalty and not get insurance until they got sick. An insurance system can’t work when healthy people stay out of it and only sick people are in it. I suppose you could increase the tax to equal the cost of the insurance. If people supposedly don’t have enough money to buy insurance where are they going to get the money to pay such a tax?

    Polls show that the people want the system changed.

    Yes, giving people free stuff is popular and making people work and pay for what they need is unpopular. Thus the eternal appeal of socialism. If the Republicans try to win elections by offering more free stuff than the Democrats it is not going to work because the Democrats can always outbid them. Trump may get by Sleepy Joe and Hindu Hillary but there are just too many people now who want the government to give them things. I predict an expanding Democrat run government in the future. The Democrats free health care plan will be especially unworkable. They also support open borders immigration and free health care and free everything else will act as a magnet pulling in poor people from around the world and hasten the collapse. I am very pessimistic here. Any intelligent person needs to start thinking about how they are going to insulate themselves and their family when the economy crashes and we descend into Great Depression 2.0.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  38. @dfordoom

    One minor problem is that people can do stupid things and their families suffer. Is it OK for kids to be homeless because Mommy made a stupid decision?

    That’s what we have foster care homes for.  The “Mommy” who hooks up with Jerktavious and assists an armed robbery needs to never see her kids again, and never have any more.  If her kids start to follow in her footsteps, no kids for them.

    Also, if a corporation makes a stupid decision and faces bankruptcy as a result should the government bail them out? Or just let them go bust?

    Go bust, of course.  With management and the board held liable for their decisions against stockholder interest.

    Personally I find it difficult to comprehend people who like the idea of punishing other people.

    So if someone robbed you or tried to kill you, you think they should not be punished?

    You’re a special variety of stupid.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  39. Jay Fink says:
    @dfordoom

    If anything Democrats are more in favor of bailing out Wall Street than Republicans. Remember TARP? Several Republicans voted against it but almost all Dems voted for it, Bernie Sanders being a rare exception.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  40. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Mr. Rational

    Personally I find it difficult to comprehend people who like the idea of punishing other people.

    So if someone robbed you or tried to kill you, you think they should not be punished?

    I thought it was obvious from the context that we were discussing punishing people for being stupid, rather than for committing crimes. But maybe it wasn’t obvious. OK, I’ll revise that statement to make it clear.

    Personally I find it difficult to comprehend people who like the idea of punishing other people merely for being stupid.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Mr. Rational
    , @Michelle
  41. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    people who like the idea of punishing other people

    It is not punishment, it is nature red in tooth and claw. If you don’t let nature prune the useless eaters from the herd there won’t be enough grass for the ones who really deserve to eat. Who are you to overrule nature? Really. What will you come up with next? Burying your dead with flowers? Myths? Poetry? Virtues? Visual arts? Religions? Souls? Human rights?

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @John Johnson
    , @Yahya K.
    , @Talha
  42. @dfordoom

    Personally I find it difficult to comprehend people who like the idea of punishing other people merely for being stupid.

    A great deal of stupidity creates its own punishment.  Decisions like using drugs, sleeping with worthless people, that sort of thing.  We need to let those consequences play out as object lessons rather than trying to ameliorate them.

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  43. @Mr. Rational

    A great deal of stupidity creates its own punishment. Decisions like using drugs, sleeping with worthless people, that sort of thing. We need to let those consequences play out as object lessons rather than trying to ameliorate them.

    Here is seen the diversity within the U.S. Right. In the United States at least, some of the Right (probably including me) are temperamentally paternalistic. Some (perhaps including you) are not. A spectrum spans the gap, so many Rightists stand between the two poles; but what they all have in common is a lack of belief that state action can solve universal problems.

    To the paternalistic Right, it is a question of ameliorating pain—partly via state action—in particular circumstances close to home. The parternalistic Right recognizes that the nonpaternalistic Right makes an important point and that a major tradeoff are involved, whereas the Left will not recognize the same tradeoff in the same way.

    This is one reason Left remains Left while Right remains Right—and is why trying to resolve Left from Right through a Libertarian lens tends to be an exercise in confusion.

  44. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Daughter of first wife and third wife show how some people voting for either candidate are feeling:

    Keep smiling…

  45. @V. K. Ovelund

    That is, would you boost the tax against a couple earning $100,000, or $1 million, or $10 million, or $100 million, or some other figure? Or would you boost the tax on some other basis?

    You are thinking wages.

    They wealthy don’t play that game.

    They have all kinds of scams they use to hide profits.

    Can start with their fake charities.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  46. @iffen

    It is not punishment, it is nature red in tooth and claw. If you don’t let nature prune the useless eaters from the herd there won’t be enough grass for the ones who really deserve to eat. Who are you to overrule nature? Really.

    Our system is based on nature? That’s hilarious.

    We live in a welfare state and the GOP does nothing to change that.

    So not even sure what you guys are defending.

    Our system is dysgenic and completely stupid. If you don’t work and have kids the government will give you money and health care.

    But the “minimal government” types tells the middle class that they have to endure rugged capitalism while the indolent and amoral get a free ride.

    It’s all so stupid and the GOP goes along with it because at the end of the day the GOP thinks this ship is going down anyways.

    • Agree: Jay Fink
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  47. @Mark G.

    That won’t work. Sweden tried to pay for free health care and other free items by raising taxes on the rich.

    Taxing the wealthy won’t work? Did you not read about Trump’s tax return? They are playing the public for suckers with tax avoidance schemes.

    All these wealthy families do it. The Clintons are masters at it.

    These wealthy families laugh at you guys for defending them.

    I’ve been around the wealthy. They are not worth defending.

    A few changes to the capital gains tax code would raise billions that the wealthy wouldn’t even notice.

    If socialism can’t work in a country full of high IQ Swedes how is it going to work in a country where a third of the population are low IQ blacks and Hispanics

    Where did I say I want socialism?

    I said tax the wealthy and expand health care coverage.

    Any intelligent person needs to start thinking about how they are going to insulate themselves and their family when the economy crashes and we descend into Great Depression 2.0.

    And this is why Republicans continue to lose. You don’t have any solutions to modern problems and just expect the whole thing to crash anyways. You have wed yourself to this idea that minimal government is always the ideal when there are problems like health care access that run into problems with market allocation.

    If “minimal government” was everything then Africa wouldn’t have any problems. Oh doesn’t apply to them? Well that is not what the GOP and the conservative establishment teach. They talk about their economic theories as if they were handed down by God.

    Would you rather have surgery in Sweden or “minimal government” Ethiopia that has been capitalist for hundreds of years? This is clearly more complex than degree of public ownership. But good luck getting anyone from the GOP to even talk about this honestly. They just want to turn on AM radio or Fox to hear about how tax breaks can magically fix health care.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  48. dfordoom says: • Website
    @John Johnson

    It is not punishment, it is nature red in tooth and claw. If you don’t let nature prune the useless eaters from the herd there won’t be enough grass for the ones who really deserve to eat. Who are you to overrule nature? Really.

    Our system is based on nature? That’s hilarious.

    I think iffen was being facetious.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  49. @dfordoom

    I think iffen was being facetious.

    Perhaps but there are clearly posters here that defend the status quo as if it some form of minimal government.

    What we have is a bastardized system that is the worst of all worlds.

    If you get AIDs from being an irresponsible fag the government will pay for your medication.

    But middle class Whites are told that they have to deal with medication costs cause capitalism.

    If the GOP doesn’t have a plan then they should get the f–k out of the way and let the populists take over. Even if Trump wins the current GOP strategy will eventually lead to a Democrat supermajority. Waving flags and complaining about Hispanics voting Democrat is not going to win them anything and we saw this in California.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @Mr. Rational
  50. Yahya K. says:
    @iffen

    It is not punishment, it is nature red in tooth and claw. If you don’t let nature prune the useless eaters from the herd there won’t be enough grass for the ones who really deserve to eat.

    Decrease the surplus population!

    • Replies: @iffen
  51. iffen says:
    @Yahya K.

    I know, the do-gooders did away with a perfectly functioning system in the poor houses. Not only that, they did away with convict leasing. Talk about a prison vocational rehabilitation program that really worked! Don’t get me started on turning the mentally ill out of the snake pits to live in the streets. With our system of farming out government functions by contracts we could have better snakes and pits at less cost.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  52. dfordoom says: • Website
    @John Johnson

    If the GOP doesn’t have a plan then they should get the f–k out of the way and let the populists take over.

    The problem with that is that Populism as a viable political alternative exists only in the imagination of a handful of commenters on sites such as this. Once Trump is gone Populism is going to collapse due to the fact that it has no alternative leader, no organisation, no money, no elite support, no media support, no coherent program. Populism is nothing more than a cult of personality built around Trump.

    I’m not saying Populism is bad. I have some sympathy for Populism. It just doesn’t actually exist as a viable alternative.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  53. Michelle says:
    @dfordoom

    I have been arguing this for years. White liberals are very racist, because they think that all white people are somehow, naturally smart and would be just like the educated elite, if only they sought out education. Like quitting mining and taking ethnic studies , reading the NYT’s and learning to code! When I try to argue that there are millions of white people who, through accident of birth, don’t have high enough IQ’s to benefit from education, they just don’t get it. They think white people are responsible for their own stupidity.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  54. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    I know, the do-gooders did away with a perfectly functioning system in the poor houses.

    Exactly. People need to stop reading Dickens the wrong way. They need to treat his novels as instruction manuals on how to deal with the poor!

    Also we need to go back to establishing penal colonies. Hey, Australia turned out OK.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Yahya K.
    , @iffen
  55. Yahya K. says:
    @dfordoom

    Also we need to go back to establishing penal colonies. Hey, Australia turned out OK.

    It sure did! With lots of luck of course:

  56. @Elmer's Washable School Glue

    “My one reservation is that making it a government department based in D.C. would represent yet another massive transfusion of wealth to the already ostentatiously opulent capital, away from the struggling provinces. ”

    Trump moved one department out to CO. Send the rest of them away. Couldn’t agree more.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  57. @obwandiyag

    Doctors can only make, oh, $300,000 or so a year (penury) instead of millions. Drugs don’t cost an arm and a leg. Hospital stays, diagnostics, etc., have their prices fixed low at cost.

    I’d quibble on medical doctors, who face 4 years college, four years med school, then more training before they can earn $300k, or millions. Them getting paid after alL that training isn’t as bad as, for example, the head of Eli Lilly making millions from stock options because they’ve driven the price of insulin for poor Americans so high they get to choose between food and medicine. Horrible. Look at who makes the money in hospitals, too: more Professional/Managerial class skimming.

    We can impoverish the doctors AFTER we claw back the dollars from the MBAs who not only wet their beaks, but bathe in and foul the water the rest of us need.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @John Johnson
  58. @John Johnson

    If you get AIDs from being an irresponsible fag the government will pay for your medication.

    That is the problem, and always been.  Who the FUCK apologizes for fags?!

    But middle class Whites are told that they have to deal with medication costs cause capitalism.

    Whites who die because they cannot pay for their grossly-overpriced insulin or Epipens (because under government-backed patent that should have been revoked and deemed generic) need to be deemed murders for the sake of the Elite and billed at a least a $Billion per head.

  59. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    Hey, Australia turned out OK.

    Are you still allowed to say that out loud there? I mean, look at how civilization has devastated the Aborigines? Can we still call them Aborigines?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  60. iffen says:

    RE: Dysfunctional welfare systems, aka safety nets.

    That they are now called safety nets should give you a clue to how most people view social welfare. Also, most people believe that the children should not suffer for the bad decisions made by the adults in their lives. “Giving” welfare to the mother is believed to be one way of helping the children to an equal opportunity.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  61. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    Hey, Australia turned out OK.

    Are you still allowed to say that out loud there?

    Of course, as long as you make it clear that Australia is a great country because of diversity. The fact that you have to add the qualifier is another thing for which we can thank American influence.

    I mean, look at how civilization has devastated the Aborigines? Can we still call them Aborigines?

    No, they’re now indigenous Australians or indigenous persons. They were Kooris for a while, but that’s gone out of fashion. And God help you if you don’t bow down to their flag. You have to bow down to the Rainbow flag as well. Which is yet another thing for which we can thank American influence.

    That doesn’t mean that you can’t say racist things. You can say horrible things about the Chinese. And yes, that’s another result of being an American colonial possession. If the US is anti-China then we obey our US colonial masters and become anti-China as well.

    • Replies: @iffen
  62. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    Also, most people believe that the children should not suffer for the bad decisions made by the adults in their lives. “Giving” welfare to the mother is believed to be one way of helping the children to an equal opportunity.

    Yes. In a sane society we’d just let those children starve.

    There are of course alternatives. We could put those children to work in factories or send them down the coal mines. Or use them as chimney sweeps. There’s nothing like putting children to work as chimney sweeps to teach them rugged individualism and self-reliance.

    And don’t get me started on all those useless old people and sick people. A sane society recognises that it’s best to let the old and the sick die. If only we could convince all those useless eaters that they need to die.

    • Replies: @iffen
  63. @John Johnson

    I’ve been around the wealthy. They are not worth defending.

    What do you mean, please? No police protection, say?

    And this is why Republicans continue to lose. You don’t have any solutions to modern problems and just expect the whole thing to crash anyways. You have wed yourself to this idea that minimal government is always the ideal when there are problems like health care access that run into problems with market allocation.

    Except for the bit about not defending the wealthy, you are probably right.

  64. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    Agree-Mr. Rational

    Just so you don’t have to use up all your buttons, Mr. R. 🙂

    • Troll: Mr. Rational
  65. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    Sometimes I think that it’s too bad that we didn’t allow you Aussies to learn to speak Japanese.

    • Disagree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  66. @Thomm

    So the clause in the Preamble to the Constitution and the clause in Article 1 which expressly says that the federal government is to “promote the general welfare” of the people is socialistic?

    Marx didn’t write the Communist Manifesto till 1848, which was 59 years after the Constitution took effect.

    It is odd how anything the government does that supports the public at large is deemed socialistic.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  67. @davidgmillsatty

    So the clause in the Preamble to the Constitution and the clause in Article 1 which expressly says that the federal government is to “promote the general welfare” of the people is socialistic?

    Have you noticed that U.S. citizens (even white U.S. citizens) born after about 1975 are uninterested when the word “socialism” is mentioned?

    One is tempted to try to educate younger citizens better until one remembers that a citizen born in 1975 is now aged 45. That’s not so young. It is at any rate too old to try to educate.

    Those of us that are old enough remember Cold War-era socialism shall have to come up with a different way to discuss these concepts, if we expect to be heard. We shall also need to listen. I grasp the threat the word “socialism” is intended to convey but, for general audiences, the word no longer seems to work.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @John Johnson
  68. @dfordoom

    Populism is nothing more than a cult of personality built around Trump.

    I’m not saying Populism is bad. I have some sympathy for Populism. It just doesn’t actually exist as a viable alternative.

    Populism existed before Trump and it will continue after Trump.

    The question is whether or not the GOP will choose to stick with a losing strategy or switch to populism.

    European conservatives have been moving towards populism. Traditional conservatism has too many flaws and is unable to defeat the left. It is built around a White middle class that struggles to exist. But the real problem is that it simply isn’t in touch with the problems of most people and the limitations of the free market.

    Conservatism is certainly more common than populism but it is not a viable solution to the plans of the left. We saw this in California and conservatives will decide if they want to lose the country as well.

    • Replies: @A123
  69. Talha says:
    @iffen

    nature red in tooth and claw. If you don’t let nature prune the useless eaters from the herd

    Tooth and claw…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
  70. @TomSchmidt

    Horrible. Look at who makes the money in hospitals, too: more Professional/Managerial class skimming.

    We can impoverish the doctors AFTER we claw back the dollars from the MBAs who not only wet their beaks, but bathe in and foul the water the rest of us need.

    Everyone forgets that the doctors in the US hand over 1/3 of their income to the gov and if they are small practice have to pay their own insurance.

    The hospital managers really aren’t the main problem either.

    Them getting paid after all that training isn’t as bad as, for example, the head of Eli Lilly making millions from stock options because they’ve driven the price of insulin for poor Americans so high they get to choose between food and medicine.

    It’s a combined problem of corporate greed and a rise in demand. Type 2 diabetes is out of control. Democrats fall back to education which simply isn’t working. Conservatives really have no solutions here other than words of moral advice.

  71. @V. K. Ovelund

    One is tempted to try to educate younger citizens better until one remembers that a citizen born in 1975 is now aged 45. That’s not so young. It is at any rate too old to try to educate.

    Those of us that are old enough remember Cold War-era socialism shall have to come up with a different way to discuss these concepts, if we expect to be heard. We shall also need to listen. I grasp the threat the word “socialism” is intended to convey but, for general audiences, the word no longer seems to work.

    If anything the problem is with boomer conservatives that live in denial of our problems and just throw out the socialism card as a lazy argument.

    It’s wearing thin as an argument against any form of public social spending.

    Quoting Reagan or Rand and calling people socialists isn’t a solution to our complex health care problems.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @dfordoom
  72. A123 says:
    @John Johnson

    The question is whether or not the GOP will choose to stick with a losing strategy or switch to populism.

    The advantage that Populism offers the GOP is that is diametrically opposite the DNC’s Corporate Woke Elite Globalism.

    The real question is, “Who becomes the next leader?” U.S. Populism needs someone who can who break the back of Elite Islamic media outlets that are the core constituency of wokism. Ted Cruz has changed significantly in the past four years. Maybe he will be Trump’s successor in 2024.

    PEACE 😇

  73. @Altai

    I think there is compelling evidence (based on early voting, _not_ polls) that Trump is en route to a comfortable victory.

    I expect we will see the pollsters back-pedaling in a hurry once they figure out what has actually happened with early voters.

    A detailed discussion can be found here (well worth anyone’s time):

    https://the-american-catholic.com/2020/10/16/why-polls-this-year-are-crap

    I expect Unz readers to be ahead of the curve, not stuck behind it!

    • Thanks: A123
    • Replies: @A123
  74. A123 says:
    @Justvisiting

    Interesting link based on the first few minutes. I will have to watch the entire thing this evening.
    ____

    You make a good point about early polling.

    Actual swing state early voting party splits are in hand. They can be compared to the polling about early voting. In Wisconsin:

    — Predicted double digit lead DNC over GOP registered voters turnout.
    — Actual early turnout, little to no lead in DNC turnout.

    Things look worse for Team Blue everyday.

    PEACE 😇

  75. @John Johnson

    If anything the problem is with boomer conservatives that live in denial of our problems and just throw out the socialism card as a lazy argument.

    Fellow older citizens of the United States, are we listening?

    The country is going to hell. That happened on someone’s watch.

    These younger citizens do not believe that we older citizens have the answers. Why? Because, over the course of several decades, we older citizens have proved beyond doubt that we do not have the answers.

    Results speak for themselves.

    [MORE]

    I realize that many of my fellow older citizens feel unappreciated and disrespected, but the one thing too many of us older folks have not tried is to listen. Just listen.

    If you listen, you will find that our children’s generation does not hate or loathe us as you think that they do. Rather, our children’s generation is intensely frustrated with us—for good reason. If you listen, you will find that some among our children’s generation, right of center, actually have some pretty good ideas—ideas which came to them as a result of growing up in this Clown Nation we have made for them out of what had been our ancestors’ Shining City on a Hill.

    The younger generation are not kids any more. They just about old enough to lead. We screwed up—not all of us, but as a rule. What does that tell you?

    It tells me that it is time for us older citizens to show some collective generational humility. If we will not listen and cannot help, then we ought to consider getting out of the way.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  76. iffen says:
    @Talha

    Interesting, Talha. He kills the cubs because he “knows” that he is not the father. Domestic cats, feral or otherwise, do it as well. I saw the evidence when I was a child.

    Are you suggesting that the impulse to kill the non paternity cubs is related to the impulse to disregard the welfare of children that are not one’s own?

    • Replies: @Talha
  77. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    Sometimes I think that it’s too bad that we didn’t allow you Aussies to learn to speak Japanese.

    We would have missed out on all the awesome benefits of being an American colony. We would have missed out on rap music, AIDS, ubiquitous internet porn, moronic comic book movies, transgenderism, homosexual worship, Drag Queen Story Hour, getting dragged into the Vietnam War and countless other American wars, drive-by shootings, the cult of diversity, Wokeism, Social Justice Warriors, green energy (which produces everything except actual energy), the drug culture and so many other glorious benefits of American culture.

    God bless America!

    • Replies: @iffen
  78. dfordoom says: • Website
    @John Johnson

    If anything the problem is with boomer conservatives that live in denial of our problems and just throw out the socialism card as a lazy argument.

    Yes, more or less.

    For conservatives it’s always the 1950s and there are communists hiding under every bed and the commies are about to take over America.

    For much of the American far right it’s always the 1950s and there are communists hiding under every bed and the commies are about to take over America.

    You can’t reason with these people.

    • Replies: @A123
  79. A123 says:
    @dfordoom

    For conservatives it’s always the 1950s and there are communists hiding under every bed and the commies are about to take over America.

    For much of the American far right it’s always the 1950s and there are communists hiding under every bed and the commies are about to take over America.

    You can’t reason with these people.

    The NeoCons and those paranoid about communist Russia have been driven out of the Populist GOP. Thus, it would be better to say:

    For SJW Globalists it is always the 1950’s and there are Russian election meddlers hiding under every bed. For much of the American extreme, woke, corporate Elites it’s always the 1950’s.

    The tweet below shows how much the SJW Globalist DNC fears the commie threat.

    And, you certainly cannot reason with them.

    PEACE 😇

  80. Talha says:
    @iffen

    I think so. “Genetic dead weight” in the eyes of the patriarch that is worried about others competing for resources he needs for his own kin. In the lion’s case, he kills the cubs because he needs the females to be in estrus again so he can mate with them and he does not want their milk or attention going to the cubs of the lion he just killed or drove off to win those females. Survival of the fittest is pretty ugly.

    Thankfully, we are human.

    On a related note, I did have a brief exchange with Mufti Musa Furber (who is a white convert that studied and received his credentials to give fatwas from al-Azhar) about something related. He mentioned an usuli (foundational) principle used in arriving at a fatwa in the Shafi’i school. He cited the very famous medieval Shafi’i scholar of Mamluk Egypt, ‘Izz Ibn ‘Abdus Salam (ra) – who is often called the “Sultan al-‘Ulama” (leader of the scholars) from the book “Qawa’id al-Kubra” (or, “The Greatest Pillars/Foundations”):
    “Repelling a detriment from the poor is more pressing than repelling a detriment from the rich.”

    The rights of both are foundational, but proper perspective must be kept…and this is rather intuitive for most people anyway.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
  81. @V. K. Ovelund

    Fellow older citizens of the United States, are we listening?

    The country is going to hell. That happened on someone’s watch.

    I’m not an older citizen.

    I had boomer profs try to cheat me in college on separate occasions.

    They weren’t a fan of my thinking and it didn’t make me a fan of them.

  82. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    Well, we had to suffer through a whole series of Crocodile Dundee movies so we are even.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  83. iffen says:
    @Talha

    the patriarch that is worried about others competing for resources he needs for his own kin.

    Many commenters pitch their opposition to social welfare along racial, ethnic or religious lines, only some are hard core Social Darwinists with regard to their own group. Of course I have an idea of where it would go if they gained complete power.

    I don’t understand “detriment from”. If you are saying that peons are the greater source of society’s “bad decisions” than are the rich and elite, I will have to strenuously disagree. If you are saying that peons need more help from society than do the rich and elite, I couldn’t agree more.

    • Replies: @Talha
  84. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    Well, we had to suffer through a whole series of Crocodile Dundee movies so we are even.

    We felt that you guys needed to be exposed to some real culture!

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @A123
  85. Talha says:
    @iffen

    If you are saying that peons need more help from society than do the rich and elite, I couldn’t agree more.

    Yes, this.

    It is reported that Abu Bakr (ra), the very first Caliph made this famous address to the people after they had pledged their allegiance to him:
    “I have been given the authority over you, and I am not the best of you. If I do well, help me; and if I do wrong, set me right. Sincere regard for truth is loyalty and disregard for truth is treachery. The weak amongst you shall be strong with me until I have secured his rights, if God wills; and the strong amongst you shall be weak with me until I have wrested from him the rights of others, if God wills. Obey me so long as I obey God and His Messenger. But if I disobey God and His Messenger, you owe me no obedience. Arise for your prayer, God have mercy upon you.”

    It is not that the rich do not have rights – they absolutely do. But so do the poor. And the poor are more vulnerable and at risk from harm if their rights are not secured on their behalf as opposed to the rich.

    I’ll give you a couple of practical examples since my spiritual teacher has recently been doing refresher lessons on zakat. Zakat is sometimes called the poor tax or alms or whatever, but that’s not what it is exactly. If you have a certain minimum amount of wealth and a lunar year passes, then 2.5% of it is no longer yours; Allah swt has declared that it is not your property any longer, it belongs to the poor and you are now obligated to purify your wealth from it (which is the root meaning of zakat) but getting to its rightful owners.

    As such, one can calculate whether they owe zakat by either a minimum value of gold or a minimum value of silver. Because the market fluctuates, the calculations lead to different results for gold or silver. Technically, you have the right to decide whether you want to calculate based on the higher or lower minimum value, but most ulema I have come across will tell you to calculate based on the lower minimum amount because that is more likely to secure the rights of the poor.

    Another one is 401K. People need to pay zakat on that amount, but if you extract the money early (before retirement), there is some penalty to be paid, so technically you don’t have full rights over the money as yet when you are young. Thus you can wait until you have unfettered access to the money to pay the zakat of the past years on it. However, my teachers have taught us it is better to pay the zakat on the 401K on time each year and not defer – simply take the small penalty (God will just reward you extra for it) and get the money to the poor, because – again – they are in a vulnerable situation; it may be your right to wait until many years later (to avoid paying penalties), but they have need for the money at the moment and, if you are wealthy, the penalty is an inconvenience for you, but nothing you can’t absorb.

    Peace.

  86. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    Yes, he taught us never to be unprepared for a knife fight.
    “Tha’s no’ a knoife….Tha’s a knoife!”

    And of course, this fun family game:

    Peace.

  87. A123 says:
    @dfordoom

    We felt that you guys needed to be exposed to some real culture!

    So… Your idea of culture is “That’s not a knife. This is a Knife.” ???

    Admittedly a full tang, fixed blade is preferred for SHTF. However, they are a bit awkward for every day carry.

    PEACE 😇

  88. @Jay Fink

    Indeed. Wall Street owns both parties, but the Democrat party is the senior partner and the GOP the junior partner.

  89. @Michelle

    When I try to argue that there are millions of white people who, through accident of birth, don’t have high enough IQs to benefit from education, they just don’t get it.

    They mock and belittle rednecks and hillbillies–poor whites–in ways they would never in a million years mock and belittle poor non-whites.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational, iffen
Current Commenter
says:

Leave a Reply - Your comment will appear after approval from the schoolmarm. Racial slurs, dehumanizing language, personal identifying information, spamming, the advocation of illegal activity, or excessive profanity will not be approved. Approval of a comment does not imply endorsement of its contents by the authors of this blog or by The Unz Review.


 Remember My InformationWhy?
 Email Replies to my Comment
Submitted comments have been licensed to The Unz Review and may be republished elsewhere at the sole discretion of the latter
Subscribe to This Comment Thread via RSS Subscribe to All Audacious Epigone Comments via RSS