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One of the early analytical errors I made was in assuming guys like Heartiste were wrong about fundamental aspects of the modern sexual marketplace because the data showed, if anything, that the quantity of per capita sex was going down while the share of celibates was going up. Promiscuity? Ha, more like prudishness!

Upon further study, though, it became clear to me that I was leaving a lot out. The marketplace was bifurcating, especially for men. Some were being cut out completely while others got more than ever before.

Another related change came in the shifting nature of the sexual encounters. While committed long-term relationships are the surest way to have frequent sex, committed long-term relationships are on the decline. These steady state old faithfuls are increasingly being replaced by incels and volcels on one hand and tinder trysts on the other.

I’ve long since been qualitatively convinced this is the case, but the GSS provides quantitative reassurance. The following graph shows the percentages of sexually active respondents, by decade of participation in the survey, whose experiences over the last twelve months included “casual date or pickup” sex. The residual values for each decadel cohort can thus be considered to have come by way of some degree of relationship commitment:

As is always the case with self-reported sexual data, men appear less restrained than women. Part of the explanation could be attributable to differences in how men and women view relationship dynamics. He thought it was a hookup; she thought it a real date that just happened to end in a fit of passion. Be that as it may, the trend towards casual sex consuming a greater share and committed sex a smaller share of the total is clear.

Coronavirus and its consequences (the Great Handemic?) have revealed that we are living through a historical inflection point. Will the trend towards more casual sex and less committed sex end up being one of the many casualties of corona?

GSS variables used: SEXFREQ(1-6), YEAR, SEX, PIKUPSEX

 
• Category: Culture/Society, Science • Tags: GSS, Sex 
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  1. It would be fun if you could split out the numbers of married men and women having casual sex.

  2. “Coronavirus and its consequences (the Great Handemic?) have revealed that we are living through a historical inflection point. Will the trend towards more casual sex and less committed sex end up being one of the many casualties of corona?”

    interesting but unconvincing.

    Attributing more active to less active to a group that is less than 1% of the population seems a tad self serving. I have no idea how much more or less relations people are having. I would think that the virus has forced some level of celibacy and even serves as a moderating push back against relations of most people casual or otherwise.

    ———————

    I don’t think there is any doubt that the virus originated – some dispute. I am not comletely convinced when I hear tales of people who were ill even before the Chinese story broke. But for the moment, there’s isn’t much in the way of where the virus started. How . . . whether it was bat soup or some lab error is certainly up for discussion since it’s largely an unknown fill in the blank. But I am not bought in that China was anymore careless than any other country might be when dealing with some unknown —

    How that plays into people’s relational practices is beyond me. The virus’s impact on people’s relational behaviors is not going to change because a lab in china made a mistake . Well,

    out for nightly stroll . . .

    celibacy is the spice of life.

  3. It would be more interesting to see if any what the impact of the quarantine is having on marriages.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    It would be more interesting to see if any what the impact of the quarantine is having on marriages.
     
    It's been great for my marriage. We've had time to talk about all sorts of things that we never did before. And I'm not talking about anything profound, just the ability to have an uninterrupted conversation about, I don't know, whose responsibility it is to clean the coffee maker or whatever, can make a big difference in maintaining the domestic peace. We are living way too fast, without near enough down time, that much is increasingly clear to me.
  4. I’m not sure it is the case that people don’t *want* long-term relationships. I think the problem is that increasing amounts of people, both men and women, lack what is necessary to procure or maintain one.

    I’ve also noticed that people really aren’t broad-minded enough, perhaps as a result of over-choice paralysis. It’s wonderful if you can secure a partner that fulfills every one of your dreams, but let’s be real, that’s not going to happen for most people. You’d be surprised who you could be quite happy with if you give them a chance and you both actively work on your chemistry/reconciling your differences. Certainly better than the dating market.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I’ve also noticed that people really aren’t broad-minded enough, perhaps as a result of over-choice paralysis.
     
    So, today’s Western sexual market is much like today’s Western grocery store - 79 different kinds of breakfast cereal leading to consumer over-sampling and choice-paralysis. In the end, the consumers end up getting fat and unhealthy anyway.
    , @iffen
    I’m not sure it is the case that people don’t *want* long-term relationships.

    People want everything--until they don't want it anymore. Only endless choice and supreme individualism should be forever. Buyer's regret is our fate.
  5. The marketplace was bifurcating

    The story of our times in just about everything from income to religious intensity to furniture quality to… sex.

  6. @nebulafox
    I'm not sure it is the case that people don't *want* long-term relationships. I think the problem is that increasing amounts of people, both men and women, lack what is necessary to procure or maintain one.

    I've also noticed that people really aren't broad-minded enough, perhaps as a result of over-choice paralysis. It's wonderful if you can secure a partner that fulfills every one of your dreams, but let's be real, that's not going to happen for most people. You'd be surprised who you could be quite happy with if you give them a chance and you both actively work on your chemistry/reconciling your differences. Certainly better than the dating market.

    I’ve also noticed that people really aren’t broad-minded enough, perhaps as a result of over-choice paralysis.

    So, today’s Western sexual market is much like today’s Western grocery store – 79 different kinds of breakfast cereal leading to consumer over-sampling and choice-paralysis. In the end, the consumers end up getting fat and unhealthy anyway.

    • Replies: @SFG
    That was a joke, but it's actually a very good observation about what happens when you only satisfy immediate drives--the same is true with food and sex.
  7. @nebulafox
    I'm not sure it is the case that people don't *want* long-term relationships. I think the problem is that increasing amounts of people, both men and women, lack what is necessary to procure or maintain one.

    I've also noticed that people really aren't broad-minded enough, perhaps as a result of over-choice paralysis. It's wonderful if you can secure a partner that fulfills every one of your dreams, but let's be real, that's not going to happen for most people. You'd be surprised who you could be quite happy with if you give them a chance and you both actively work on your chemistry/reconciling your differences. Certainly better than the dating market.

    I’m not sure it is the case that people don’t *want* long-term relationships.

    People want everything–until they don’t want it anymore. Only endless choice and supreme individualism should be forever. Buyer’s regret is our fate.

  8. Maybe I’m missing something, but in order to reach those conclusions, don’t we first have to know whether the category of “sexually active” people is increasing or decreasing?

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Maybe I’m missing something, but in order to reach those conclusions, don’t we first have to know whether the category of “sexually active” people is increasing or decreasing?
     
    Yes. I'd also like to know how "sexually active" was defined (if you had sex once in the past year does that make you sexually active?), and how "casual sex" was defined. The problem with all surveys on sexual behaviour or attitudes is that you can't be certain how the respondents define those terms.

    If you had sex with the same person twice is it still casual sex? Is a three-week fling casual sex? Is it casual sex if you really liked the guy? Is it only casual sex if you woke up the next day and he couldn't remember your name?
    , @Audacious Epigone
    There is a lot of noise, but the general trend seems to be that it is very modestly declining in total.
    , @Hail
    Speaking of sexual politics, and apropos of AE's uncontroversial observation in this post:

    committed long-term relationships are on the decline
     
    I'd like to bring up the case-study of Heidi Beirich, long of the SPLC, a case of someone who is both never married and a political extremist.

    I did a full investigation into her origins and life a few months ago ("Heidi Beirich (SPLC)’s Origin Story: Family, early life, clues to her political origins and radicalization").

    Almost Missouri, you left a good and thoughtful comment which I somehow missed until yesterday. The idea was that Heidi Beirich's motivation may be heavily based on what we can call sexual-politics. I'd like to call attention to the comment you left at the time (with our host AE's permission):

    https://hailtoyou.wordpress.com/2019/11/13/heidi-beirich-splcs-origin-story-family-early-life-clues-to-political-origins/#comment-26892

    It reads in part:

    the most significant sentence in your analysis may be

    “Unmarried, no children”.

    Combine that with Christian Identity Australia’s undeniable observation that Ms. Beirich is obviously hideous, and an important axis of investigation emerges.

    Ms. Beirich had all the ingredients: fair skin, blonde hair, blue eyes, Northern European ancestry, she claims to have been on a hard-body-producing swim team, yet somehow the ingredients never came together for her. Even in the more youthful pictures, she looks repugnant. And this would be aggravated by the fact that in her SoCal youth, she would have been surrounded by modern Adonises and Aphrodites.

    All her life choices make perfect sense as existential rage. [....]
     
    My reply/expansion on the point is here:

    https://hailtoyou.wordpress.com/2019/11/13/heidi-beirich-splcs-origin-story-family-early-life-clues-to-political-origins/#comment-35980

    It may help to think of this in terms of the crime cliche, “motive, means, and opportunity.” If the motive is as you describe it, what are the ‘means’? What is the ‘opportunity’? [....]
     
    While I do not believe sexual politics explains everything, it does explain a lot, and can pop up in, or influence, unlikely circumstances. In this sense, it is easier to understand people like Beirich as victims of the system, who would've been happier, ironically, if the needle had been bent back somewhat towards the bad-old-days during her formative years, back towards, a time (or some caricatured version thereof) which they like to tell themselves it is political prime imperative to rail against, but which they may have really been happier in.
  9. Almost every relationship starts with casual sex. Like you hook up, then hook up again, then decide you like each other so it gets serious.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    This does happen in real life... (Source: me.)

    But this does not happen near as much in real life as a lot of women who use it as a strategy to land a guy seem to want it to happen.

    , @Dumbo
    Maybe today, but it wasn't like this before, and it won't be in the future.

    Casual sex is bad for women, and the sad thing is, they don't even realize it.

    For men, meh - it can be fun at first but it can also be bad, especially if the guy thinks it will last forever and doesn't settle down. Men "hit the wall" too. Later, but they do.
    , @RadicalCenter
    How disgusting and sad, if true.

    You should actually know the woman, her personality, and something about her character, values, viewpoints, interests, and your points of commonality and difference, before sleeping together, no?

    How’s the hook-up-first approach going for us? Terribly low rates of marriage and fertility suggest it’s not going well, as do increasing rates of dead-end sexual deviancy, “dying without issue”, and dying alone.
  10. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Almost every relationship starts with casual sex. Like you hook up, then hook up again, then decide you like each other so it gets serious.

    This does happen in real life… (Source: me.)

    But this does not happen near as much in real life as a lot of women who use it as a strategy to land a guy seem to want it to happen.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Yeah it only works if the man wants something serious after too.

    Usually he doesn't. But sometimes it does, it has happened to me too before.

    Fathers don't seem to be teaching their daughters that men are horny bastards and that sex is the most valuable gift a woman has, so she should use it sparingly in a casual setting.
  11. @Almost Missouri
    Maybe I'm missing something, but in order to reach those conclusions, don't we first have to know whether the category of "sexually active" people is increasing or decreasing?

    Maybe I’m missing something, but in order to reach those conclusions, don’t we first have to know whether the category of “sexually active” people is increasing or decreasing?

    Yes. I’d also like to know how “sexually active” was defined (if you had sex once in the past year does that make you sexually active?), and how “casual sex” was defined. The problem with all surveys on sexual behaviour or attitudes is that you can’t be certain how the respondents define those terms.

    If you had sex with the same person twice is it still casual sex? Is a three-week fling casual sex? Is it casual sex if you really liked the guy? Is it only casual sex if you woke up the next day and he couldn’t remember your name?

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Defined as having had sex sometime in the past year.
  12. Many of the male incels of today would have become married and produced children if they had been born in earlier generations. Their father and grandfathers did, which is why they are here. The decline of long term committed relationships has been bad for the average male. It’s been a mixed blessing for women. On the plus side, younger women have more sexual choices and no longer have to stay with abusive husbands. Polling, though, shows declining levels of female happiness since the seventies. The increased level of casual sex with higher value males may bring them happiness when they are young but when they become unmarried childless middle aged cat ladies later on their view may change.

    The coronavirus may lead to more restrained sexual activities. It was thought AIDS would lead to that since the authorities at the time like Anthony Fauci were warning that it could break out into the heterosexual population. This turned out not to be the case so people didn’t change their behavior that much. We may find out people in their twenties have a low probability of catching coronavirus and won’t die if they do catch it. They may not end up changing that much. The changes will mainly take place among older people. Middle aged swingers, cougars, and older men who use any form of commercial sex will decline in numbers.

    • Replies: @Not my economy
    > On the plus side, younger women no longer have to stay with abusive husbands.

    Ultimate boomer cope

    Women seek out and choose to stay with abusive partners over and over and over again
  13. UK says:

    That reads to me like a childishly authoritarian sentiment. It may be my problem though.

    My feeling instead is that some consumers end up fat and unhealthy, while others are the healthiest and most attractive humans in history.

    This is just yet another proof of the following conundrum:

    Freedom, diversity, equality…pick two.

    Or more specifically, balance them off against each other. For example, keep freedom basically whole, but take equality and diversity on a 50/50 basis. That’s what I prefer at least. It makes me a moderate liberal nationalist.

    Kind of like South Korea does, though not many South Koreans in the West seem to want that for the West, for understandable reasons of self-advantage I suppose.

    They don’t want to be kicked out or discriminated against, even while hypocritically supporting South Korea for doing the same to others. This means they prefer diversity foremost in the West and will take freedom and equality at about 50/50.

    They tend therefore to be moderate liberal globalists in the West and moderate liberal nationalists in South Korea.

    If the point of a movement is to persuade them to a nationalist Western cause then they must be offered both carrot and stick. Only the stick is to force them away, but the carrot comes at the cost of full and equal and welcoming inclusion.

    As I’m 50/50 equality versus diversity, I am ok with this.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Freedom, diversity, equality…pick two.

    Two? I think we only get to pick one.
  14. “Almost every relationship starts with casual sex. Like you hook up, then hook up again, then decide you like each other so it gets serious.”

    This is raving lunacy.

    It may well be that this is how a plurality or even a majority of young adults today believe it should or does happen. It may well be that this is how they are trying to make it happen. But belief is not reality, and such attempts are foredoomed. This type of behavior does not produce long-lasting and stable pair bonds and families.

    The people who do NOT follow this path are the ones who end up with stable families.

    • Agree: SafeNow, RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Lol another delusional tradcuck.

    It's a great time to be a good looking man. I've already had 2 casual sex partners in 2020 and will probably have a 3rd soon.

    Horrible for society long term but I'd rather live in clown world and get laid than laid in clown world and be an incel.

    Almost every girl has casual sex partners btw. You're just not in on the secret.
    , @Rosie

    But belief is not reality, and such attempts are foredoomed.
     
    This is a massive overstatement of the case. It's not ideal, certainly, but it is reality, like it or not.

    If you were to interview couples celebrating their tenth anniversary in 2020, what do you think would be the average length of time they dated before having sex? Less than a month? A week?
  15. In much of Southern California, Asian massage parlors are ubiquitous. I wonder what will become of the employees, and, as Paul Simon put it in The Boxer, the clientele who took some comfort there.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    There’s absolutely no apparent reason why these practices need to change because of this virus. Or any other societal practice.

    There is no reliable data on the number of people infected, so we have no idea of the mortality rate.

    It appears that some governments, like the State of Minnesota, are directing doctors to call deaths “caused by covid-19” when (1) the person sometimes was never even tested for this virus, or (2) the person tested positive for the virus but there are grave comorbidity factors and the virus may not have “caused” or even much accelerated the death of an already old and sickly person.

    There is no reason to think that the virus poses any serious risk of death — certainly not much more than a bad strain of flu — to people who are not already elderly and weak and/or already have a respiratory problem (like heavy long term smokers and/or people with COPD) or uncontrolled substantial hypertension.

    How many non-elderly people have died after having a verified positive covid-19 test, compared to the number of non-elderly people who usually die from flu and pneumonia in a typical month or year? Crickets....

  16. Now, now, admitting such errors causes me to doubt you AE.

    But I suppose it really is a different world that the furcated live in.

    I will say though that now seems a perfect opportunity to have a girl experience the traditional life of a house wife. The shared experience might be bonding. It helps if you have an essential job and she doesn’t

  17. the Great Handemic

    Another good sobriquet. Thanks. I also liked dearieme’s “Contagion from Cathay” over in James Thompson’s blog.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  18. @Almost Missouri
    Maybe I'm missing something, but in order to reach those conclusions, don't we first have to know whether the category of "sexually active" people is increasing or decreasing?

    There is a lot of noise, but the general trend seems to be that it is very modestly declining in total.

  19. @dfordoom

    Maybe I’m missing something, but in order to reach those conclusions, don’t we first have to know whether the category of “sexually active” people is increasing or decreasing?
     
    Yes. I'd also like to know how "sexually active" was defined (if you had sex once in the past year does that make you sexually active?), and how "casual sex" was defined. The problem with all surveys on sexual behaviour or attitudes is that you can't be certain how the respondents define those terms.

    If you had sex with the same person twice is it still casual sex? Is a three-week fling casual sex? Is it casual sex if you really liked the guy? Is it only casual sex if you woke up the next day and he couldn't remember your name?

    Defined as having had sex sometime in the past year.

  20. @UK
    That reads to me like a childishly authoritarian sentiment. It may be my problem though.

    My feeling instead is that some consumers end up fat and unhealthy, while others are the healthiest and most attractive humans in history.

    This is just yet another proof of the following conundrum:

    Freedom, diversity, equality...pick two.

    Or more specifically, balance them off against each other. For example, keep freedom basically whole, but take equality and diversity on a 50/50 basis. That's what I prefer at least. It makes me a moderate liberal nationalist.

    Kind of like South Korea does, though not many South Koreans in the West seem to want that for the West, for understandable reasons of self-advantage I suppose.

    They don't want to be kicked out or discriminated against, even while hypocritically supporting South Korea for doing the same to others. This means they prefer diversity foremost in the West and will take freedom and equality at about 50/50.

    They tend therefore to be moderate liberal globalists in the West and moderate liberal nationalists in South Korea.

    If the point of a movement is to persuade them to a nationalist Western cause then they must be offered both carrot and stick. Only the stick is to force them away, but the carrot comes at the cost of full and equal and welcoming inclusion.

    As I'm 50/50 equality versus diversity, I am ok with this.

    Freedom, diversity, equality…pick two.

    Two? I think we only get to pick one.

    • Agree: Twinkie
    • Replies: @UK
    Perhaps the difference between our view on this is that I am only looking for an approximate?

    For example, diversity and equality are theoretically compatible, because, without freedom, the government, if competent and honest*, can make the diverse equal.

    Or freedom and diversity can work, if there is an acceptance of outcome inequality as "just"*.

    Or freedom and equality can work in as much as those living in freedom are equally privileged in talent.

    None of these are perfect of course and the asterisked points may inevitably prove their undoing, but one might naysay any proposal at all on that basis. The basis being that nothing works perfectly nor works forever.

    What I find interesting is that any two of them are not, at least, conceptually in conflict. Or rather, I find it very interesting that all three create an unresolvable conceptual conflict when taken together and one which seems to be at the heart of Western political turbulence.
    , @iffen
    Pick three, ye of little faith.
  21. Here is my take on it. “The rich get richer.”

    https://gab.com/JohnGritt/posts/104020813689979876

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Yes, like in so many other aspects of contemporary Western life, the middle is being squeezed out.
  22. “While committed long-term relationships are the surest way to have frequent sex”

    Until you have kids, and then it craters.

    Is this survey for heterosexuals only? Gay males are quite different in their behaviour.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Until you have kids, and then it craters.
     
    Indeed, which is why I don't understand why we have to talk about sex all the time on the right. It's really not all that direly important in the scheme of things.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Homosexual (not “gay”) males are a tiny part of the population, media overrepresentation and glorification notwithstanding. Both their nature and their infrequent incidence in the population make them not particularly meaningful for analysis of the rest of us.

    Why are we now in the habit of always wondering about this very small, unrepresentative group of people? We ordinarily don’t do so for other people suffering from a fairly rare psychological disorder.

    As for sex between husband and wife after having children, your point generally seems right — but that seems to depend on how many children the couple has, and how much physical space and privacy the couple still has.

    Then there’s the issue of greater contentment even with less frequent sex. Yes, even for men, hard as that would have been for me to believe at one time.
    , @MarkinLA
    Well there is that old Mel Brooks joke:

    What the best way to get a Jewish girl to stop screwing? Marry her.
  23. @vok3
    "Almost every relationship starts with casual sex. Like you hook up, then hook up again, then decide you like each other so it gets serious."

    This is raving lunacy.

    It may well be that this is how a plurality or even a majority of young adults today believe it should or does happen. It may well be that this is how they are trying to make it happen. But belief is not reality, and such attempts are foredoomed. This type of behavior does not produce long-lasting and stable pair bonds and families.

    The people who do NOT follow this path are the ones who end up with stable families.

    Lol another delusional tradcuck.

    It’s a great time to be a good looking man. I’ve already had 2 casual sex partners in 2020 and will probably have a 3rd soon.

    Horrible for society long term but I’d rather live in clown world and get laid than laid in clown world and be an incel.

    Almost every girl has casual sex partners btw. You’re just not in on the secret.

    • Replies: @Truth
    Two?...In 108 days?

    Way to go, Hef.

    , @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    Imagine how many times you might have gotten laid if you were married or at least had a steady girlfriend.

    What's the going rate for prostitutes in your neck of the woods? The ultimate in casual sex.
  24. UK says:
    @Audacious Epigone
    Freedom, diversity, equality…pick two.

    Two? I think we only get to pick one.

    Perhaps the difference between our view on this is that I am only looking for an approximate?

    For example, diversity and equality are theoretically compatible, because, without freedom, the government, if competent and honest*, can make the diverse equal.

    Or freedom and diversity can work, if there is an acceptance of outcome inequality as “just”*.

    Or freedom and equality can work in as much as those living in freedom are equally privileged in talent.

    None of these are perfect of course and the asterisked points may inevitably prove their undoing, but one might naysay any proposal at all on that basis. The basis being that nothing works perfectly nor works forever.

    What I find interesting is that any two of them are not, at least, conceptually in conflict. Or rather, I find it very interesting that all three create an unresolvable conceptual conflict when taken together and one which seems to be at the heart of Western political turbulence.

  25. @nebulafox
    This does happen in real life... (Source: me.)

    But this does not happen near as much in real life as a lot of women who use it as a strategy to land a guy seem to want it to happen.

    Yeah it only works if the man wants something serious after too.

    Usually he doesn’t. But sometimes it does, it has happened to me too before.

    Fathers don’t seem to be teaching their daughters that men are horny bastards and that sex is the most valuable gift a woman has, so she should use it sparingly in a casual setting.

    • Replies: @SafeNow
    “sex is the most valuable gift a woman has”

    Not even wrong.
    Empathy, compassion, support, an inquiring mind, a good humor. Fairmindedness; relief from the unremitting subjectivity of testosterone-driven unfairmindedness. And, telling me I am terrific, even though I suspect I am not so terrific.
    , @Twinkie

    sex is the most valuable gift a woman has
     
    That’s the kind of a thing a teenage boy would write.

    The greatest gift a human being can give another is love, the essential component of which is sacrifice - that of giving generously without expecting reciprocation. I suggest you read “The Gift of the Magi” by O. Henry instead of cruising Tinder.
  26. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Yeah it only works if the man wants something serious after too.

    Usually he doesn't. But sometimes it does, it has happened to me too before.

    Fathers don't seem to be teaching their daughters that men are horny bastards and that sex is the most valuable gift a woman has, so she should use it sparingly in a casual setting.

    “sex is the most valuable gift a woman has”

    Not even wrong.
    Empathy, compassion, support, an inquiring mind, a good humor. Fairmindedness; relief from the unremitting subjectivity of testosterone-driven unfairmindedness. And, telling me I am terrific, even though I suspect I am not so terrific.

    • Replies: @iffen
    the unremitting subjectivity of testosterone-driven unfairmindedness.

    Seriously?
    , @Lowe
    Sex itself is not the most valuable thing a woman can give a man. It's sexual loyalty.

    Also, women are anything but fair-minded. That's a pretty cuck thing to imply.
  27. @Mark G.
    Many of the male incels of today would have become married and produced children if they had been born in earlier generations. Their father and grandfathers did, which is why they are here. The decline of long term committed relationships has been bad for the average male. It's been a mixed blessing for women. On the plus side, younger women have more sexual choices and no longer have to stay with abusive husbands. Polling, though, shows declining levels of female happiness since the seventies. The increased level of casual sex with higher value males may bring them happiness when they are young but when they become unmarried childless middle aged cat ladies later on their view may change.

    The coronavirus may lead to more restrained sexual activities. It was thought AIDS would lead to that since the authorities at the time like Anthony Fauci were warning that it could break out into the heterosexual population. This turned out not to be the case so people didn't change their behavior that much. We may find out people in their twenties have a low probability of catching coronavirus and won't die if they do catch it. They may not end up changing that much. The changes will mainly take place among older people. Middle aged swingers, cougars, and older men who use any form of commercial sex will decline in numbers.

    > On the plus side, younger women no longer have to stay with abusive husbands.

    Ultimate boomer cope

    Women seek out and choose to stay with abusive partners over and over and over again

    • Replies: @Dumbo
    Yep. It's naive to think that women don't have a choice; if they are with abusive partners, it's because they want it.

    As a Brazilian writer (Nelson Rodrigues) once quipped, not all women like to be slapped, just the normal ones.


    The coronavirus may lead to more restrained sexual activities.
     
    Not sure about that. But, because "social distancing" will become in a way the new normal long after the virus is gone, it will certainly led to less social life (and more online stuff).

    So, basically, it will reinforce current trends: a few winners getting lucky with Tinder and similar, and millions of nouveau incels.

    , @Jay Fink
    Yes most abusive men are popular with the ladies. They rarely become an incel or go through dry spells of no female companionship. Another group of men that women favor are criminals. I have long predicted that we would start emptying out our prisons. We are starting to do it now. They are using the virus as an excuse but the real reason for the trend (and it will continue after the virus situation is over) is that women want sexual access to criminals, they are the dominant "real men" that women say they long for.

    If you are middle class or above a lot of what I say sounds crazy or tin foil. You don't know women with these tastes in your social circle and can't imagine they exist. Yet in lower and lower middle socioeconomic groups these primitive preferences are common. I once read a British study that found every single lower class woman they surveyed had a history of being beaten by a partner. They actually thought non-abusive men were weird.

  28. Mindless female promiscuity is on the rise, so what should one expect?

    Stefan Molyneux, whatever he may be, has recorded a rather good video where a sugar daddy, some confused guy in his 60s, confesses about his experiences with good, sometimes even great looking & affluent girls, 18-25 years age range, who went with him for no reason at all (no gerontophilia, no real financial reasons, no nothing except emptiness of soul & boredom with life).

    This is the issue of our times.

  29. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Almost every relationship starts with casual sex. Like you hook up, then hook up again, then decide you like each other so it gets serious.

    Maybe today, but it wasn’t like this before, and it won’t be in the future.

    Casual sex is bad for women, and the sad thing is, they don’t even realize it.

    For men, meh – it can be fun at first but it can also be bad, especially if the guy thinks it will last forever and doesn’t settle down. Men “hit the wall” too. Later, but they do.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Kim

    For men, meh – it can be fun at first but it can also be bad, especially if the guy thinks it will last forever and doesn’t settle down. Men “hit the wall” too. Later, but they do.
     
    The way that I see it, people have two drives, a drive for pleasure and a drive for happiness and for average people these two drives can pretty easily come into conflict.

    The drive for pleasure is the same as the desire to seek out and eat sweet things (eating addiction) or to engage in porn use or chasing tail or using drugs or alcohol or gambling or gaming addiction.

    Being a pleasure addict can be a good way of life as long as you can afford it. If you are Hugh Hefner or a Rolling Stone, you can indulge these pleasure until the day you die. No problem. In that case you don't need happiness.

    Happiness is a kind of state of pleasure or well-being that you get from having low anxiety, affectionate and supportive relations with other humans. You get small, non-addictive kicks, like seeing your kid or dog do something cute, or from taking your kids to the swimming pool or you feel the satisfaction of a job well done.

    Most people can't afford, monetarily or socially, to chase pleasure because chasing pleasure destroys the human relations that lead to happiness and these are not-coincidentally related to all kinds of survival security. Chasing pleasure leads to addiction and addiction leads to compulsive, anti-social behavior - lying and being unreliable (not "happy" behaviors), stealing from your mom, cheating on your husband, never coming home when you say you will, being distracted and having no attention for your kids, poor work performance...and this ultimately leads to loneliness and misery.

    Of course, if you are rich enough (and many modern people and societies are), you can afford to be anti-social. A rich or powerful-enough person never has to be lonely or miserable. Most of us, and most societies, though, have to choose: pleasure or happiness?

  30. @Not my economy
    > On the plus side, younger women no longer have to stay with abusive husbands.

    Ultimate boomer cope

    Women seek out and choose to stay with abusive partners over and over and over again

    Yep. It’s naive to think that women don’t have a choice; if they are with abusive partners, it’s because they want it.

    As a Brazilian writer (Nelson Rodrigues) once quipped, not all women like to be slapped, just the normal ones.

    The coronavirus may lead to more restrained sexual activities.

    Not sure about that. But, because “social distancing” will become in a way the new normal long after the virus is gone, it will certainly led to less social life (and more online stuff).

    So, basically, it will reinforce current trends: a few winners getting lucky with Tinder and similar, and millions of nouveau incels.

  31. @Audacious Epigone
    Freedom, diversity, equality…pick two.

    Two? I think we only get to pick one.

    Pick three, ye of little faith.

  32. @SafeNow
    “sex is the most valuable gift a woman has”

    Not even wrong.
    Empathy, compassion, support, an inquiring mind, a good humor. Fairmindedness; relief from the unremitting subjectivity of testosterone-driven unfairmindedness. And, telling me I am terrific, even though I suspect I am not so terrific.

    the unremitting subjectivity of testosterone-driven unfairmindedness.

    Seriously?

  33. @Not my economy
    > On the plus side, younger women no longer have to stay with abusive husbands.

    Ultimate boomer cope

    Women seek out and choose to stay with abusive partners over and over and over again

    Yes most abusive men are popular with the ladies. They rarely become an incel or go through dry spells of no female companionship. Another group of men that women favor are criminals. I have long predicted that we would start emptying out our prisons. We are starting to do it now. They are using the virus as an excuse but the real reason for the trend (and it will continue after the virus situation is over) is that women want sexual access to criminals, they are the dominant “real men” that women say they long for.

    If you are middle class or above a lot of what I say sounds crazy or tin foil. You don’t know women with these tastes in your social circle and can’t imagine they exist. Yet in lower and lower middle socioeconomic groups these primitive preferences are common. I once read a British study that found every single lower class woman they surveyed had a history of being beaten by a partner. They actually thought non-abusive men were weird.

    • Replies: @iffen
    I once read a British study that found every single lower class woman they surveyed had a history of being beaten by a partner. They actually thought non-abusive men were weird

    If he doesn't care enough to hit you--he doesn't really love you.
    , @Toronto Russian
    I've learned about the phenomenon of romantic correspondence between inmates and women outside (they are called zhdulyas "the waiting ones" in Russian). The inmate always tells her he's innocent or committed a lesser crime than he really did. They don't flaunt how violent they are. "Their" letters (actually written by the most literate guy in the cell who ghostwrites for all the others in exchange for valuable goods) are gentle and sentimental. While the duped woman brings the criminal gifts or even marries him in jail to be allowed spousal visits, he keeps convincing he will settle down with her and live an honest life. Of course it never ends like this, when he's released he's either moved on to another zhdulya, or briefly stays with her to take and drink away her money. What sells this "romance" to a woman is hope that after seeing drunks and wife-beaters around her all her life, a miracle of finding a decent, wrongly accused (or mistaken but on track to redemption) man has finally happened to her.

    Basically, the "red pill" got it all wrong. They're also ignoring the common knowledge about the follow-up to a violent act by abuser (he showers his victim with apologies and gifts, swears it will never repeat, she forgives him, they have a "honeymoon phase" and the cycle continues). Again, it's the honeymoon phase that sells the relationship - and each new abusive partner shows kindness at first, until the victim is attached to him and he can reveal his true nature.
  34. @Jay Fink
    Yes most abusive men are popular with the ladies. They rarely become an incel or go through dry spells of no female companionship. Another group of men that women favor are criminals. I have long predicted that we would start emptying out our prisons. We are starting to do it now. They are using the virus as an excuse but the real reason for the trend (and it will continue after the virus situation is over) is that women want sexual access to criminals, they are the dominant "real men" that women say they long for.

    If you are middle class or above a lot of what I say sounds crazy or tin foil. You don't know women with these tastes in your social circle and can't imagine they exist. Yet in lower and lower middle socioeconomic groups these primitive preferences are common. I once read a British study that found every single lower class woman they surveyed had a history of being beaten by a partner. They actually thought non-abusive men were weird.

    I once read a British study that found every single lower class woman they surveyed had a history of being beaten by a partner. They actually thought non-abusive men were weird

    If he doesn’t care enough to hit you–he doesn’t really love you.

  35. Back in the late 1980s I would see some married couples consisting of a nice guy beta male and their pretty wife. The thought strongly came to my mind that I was seeing the last of an era.

    I couldn’t imagine women of my generation X picking these nice, normal looking guys as partners ever again. I couldn’t really articulate it but my term at the time for the men they were with was “non-hero”. I sensed I was seeing a civility that wouldn’t maintain. I look back now and am impressed at how intuitive I was.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    I hope it will change in the future.

    The reason men work and struggle is for pussy. When increasing numbers of men have no hope at getting pussy, why bother going to work? Why bother making money?

    We know 30% of young men were sexless last year. How many got lucky once or twice? 30%? So at least 50% of young men can't get laid and realistically won't be able to. This suggests to me that something will have to change; you can't have a stable society based on this.

    Hence the push for porn, weed, Netflix, etc. As an attempt to pacify the sexless young guys. Even those nice guys in the 80s were getting laid because the institution of marriage was stronger.

  36. @Jay Fink
    Back in the late 1980s I would see some married couples consisting of a nice guy beta male and their pretty wife. The thought strongly came to my mind that I was seeing the last of an era.

    I couldn't imagine women of my generation X picking these nice, normal looking guys as partners ever again. I couldn't really articulate it but my term at the time for the men they were with was "non-hero". I sensed I was seeing a civility that wouldn't maintain. I look back now and am impressed at how intuitive I was.

    I hope it will change in the future.

    The reason men work and struggle is for pussy. When increasing numbers of men have no hope at getting pussy, why bother going to work? Why bother making money?

    We know 30% of young men were sexless last year. How many got lucky once or twice? 30%? So at least 50% of young men can’t get laid and realistically won’t be able to. This suggests to me that something will have to change; you can’t have a stable society based on this.

    Hence the push for porn, weed, Netflix, etc. As an attempt to pacify the sexless young guys. Even those nice guys in the 80s were getting laid because the institution of marriage was stronger.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    The reason men work and struggle is for pussy. When increasing numbers of men have no hope at getting pussy, why bother going to work? Why bother making money?
     
    This is one of the saddest things I ever read on Unz. It says a lot about you and others like you.
    , @nebulafox
    >Fathers don’t seem to be teaching their daughters that men are horny bastards and that sex is the most valuable gift a woman has, so she should use it sparingly in a casual setting.

    The orgasms last for seconds, the personality and habits last a lifetime.

    >The reason men work and struggle is for pussy.

    The reason animals work and struggle is for pussy. Human beings have the capability of being something better.

    Your posts reek of bitterness.

  37. @J. Gritt
    Here is my take on it. "The rich get richer."

    https://gab.com/JohnGritt/posts/104020813689979876

    Yes, like in so many other aspects of contemporary Western life, the middle is being squeezed out.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    The middle class is what separated the West from the rest of the world. Middle class means stability, and gives people the ability to enjoy life. Mexico, India, Brazil, South African have plenty of rich people. What makes those countries "shitholes" is that there is no middle class. Not that there are no rich people.
  38. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Yeah it only works if the man wants something serious after too.

    Usually he doesn't. But sometimes it does, it has happened to me too before.

    Fathers don't seem to be teaching their daughters that men are horny bastards and that sex is the most valuable gift a woman has, so she should use it sparingly in a casual setting.

    sex is the most valuable gift a woman has

    That’s the kind of a thing a teenage boy would write.

    The greatest gift a human being can give another is love, the essential component of which is sacrifice – that of giving generously without expecting reciprocation. I suggest you read “The Gift of the Magi” by O. Henry instead of cruising Tinder.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    BLA BLA BLA

    delusional tradcuck back at it again.

    you live in a fantasy world you (and I) wish were true. The real world in 2020 is not like "The greatest gift a human being can give another is love, the essential component of which is sacrifice – that of giving generously without expecting reciprocation."

    When your son is an incel and your daughter is sleeping with Chads on rotation, come back and read this comment.
  39. @Audacious Epigone
    Yes, like in so many other aspects of contemporary Western life, the middle is being squeezed out.

    The middle class is what separated the West from the rest of the world. Middle class means stability, and gives people the ability to enjoy life. Mexico, India, Brazil, South African have plenty of rich people. What makes those countries “shitholes” is that there is no middle class. Not that there are no rich people.

  40. @Twinkie

    sex is the most valuable gift a woman has
     
    That’s the kind of a thing a teenage boy would write.

    The greatest gift a human being can give another is love, the essential component of which is sacrifice - that of giving generously without expecting reciprocation. I suggest you read “The Gift of the Magi” by O. Henry instead of cruising Tinder.

    BLA BLA BLA

    delusional tradcuck back at it again.

    you live in a fantasy world you (and I) wish were true. The real world in 2020 is not like “The greatest gift a human being can give another is love, the essential component of which is sacrifice – that of giving generously without expecting reciprocation.”

    When your son is an incel and your daughter is sleeping with Chads on rotation, come back and read this comment.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    When your son is an incel and your daughter is sleeping with Chads on rotation, come back and read this comment.
     
    Don’t project your circumstances to others who live very differently. My family and I belong to a tightly-knit traditional Catholic community whose members homeschool together. The children of our community, by and large, attend universities such as Thomas Aquinas College where the dorms are sex-segregated (members of the opposite sex are not allowed), are inculcated in virtue, including chastity, and marry relatively early (early 20’s) and have lots of children. They don’t have much of an opportunity to engage in fornication and debauchery.

    I might also add that I have sons and daughters. I doubt you are even married or have a girlfriend let alone have children.

    , @Not my economy
    What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know my family and I belong to a tightly-knit traditional Catholic community whose members homeschool together. The children of our community, by and large, attend universities such as Thomas Aquinas College where the dorms are sex-segregated (members of the opposite sex are not allowed), are inculcated in virtue, including chastity, and marry relatively early (early 20’s) and have lots of children. They don’t have much of an opportunity to engage in fornication and debauchery. I might also add that I have sons and daughters. I doubt you are even married or have a girlfriend let alone have children.
  41. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    I hope it will change in the future.

    The reason men work and struggle is for pussy. When increasing numbers of men have no hope at getting pussy, why bother going to work? Why bother making money?

    We know 30% of young men were sexless last year. How many got lucky once or twice? 30%? So at least 50% of young men can't get laid and realistically won't be able to. This suggests to me that something will have to change; you can't have a stable society based on this.

    Hence the push for porn, weed, Netflix, etc. As an attempt to pacify the sexless young guys. Even those nice guys in the 80s were getting laid because the institution of marriage was stronger.

    The reason men work and struggle is for pussy. When increasing numbers of men have no hope at getting pussy, why bother going to work? Why bother making money?

    This is one of the saddest things I ever read on Unz. It says a lot about you and others like you.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    What exactly seems to you to be fallacious in his line of reasoning? He could have stated it in higher-toned language, but it seems to me that even in the vernacular, the premises are largely true and the argument is valid.
    , @Jay Fink
    Some basic truths are sad. I think he is generally right. If a man has no chance of attracting women what's his incentive to work hard? Although ideally some men are in occupations they enjoy...doing what they love.
    , @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    Not long ago, if an individual, male or female, wanted a steady supply of sex, to openly live with a member of the opposite sex and have family, he/she needed to marry and almost everyone wanted to. This incentivized a man to make something of himself in order to attract more and higher quality women. Even now, most women instinctively want a man who makes more than they do. The breakdown of sexual self-restraint, feminism, the welfare state and changes in the job market have devastated traditional ideals of marriage and family.
  42. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    BLA BLA BLA

    delusional tradcuck back at it again.

    you live in a fantasy world you (and I) wish were true. The real world in 2020 is not like "The greatest gift a human being can give another is love, the essential component of which is sacrifice – that of giving generously without expecting reciprocation."

    When your son is an incel and your daughter is sleeping with Chads on rotation, come back and read this comment.

    When your son is an incel and your daughter is sleeping with Chads on rotation, come back and read this comment.

    Don’t project your circumstances to others who live very differently. My family and I belong to a tightly-knit traditional Catholic community whose members homeschool together. The children of our community, by and large, attend universities such as Thomas Aquinas College where the dorms are sex-segregated (members of the opposite sex are not allowed), are inculcated in virtue, including chastity, and marry relatively early (early 20’s) and have lots of children. They don’t have much of an opportunity to engage in fornication and debauchery.

    I might also add that I have sons and daughters. I doubt you are even married or have a girlfriend let alone have children.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
    You write that "Don’t project your circumstances to others who live very differently. My family and I belong to a tightly-knit traditional Catholic community whose members homeschool together. The children of our community, by and large, attend universities such as Thomas Aquinas College where the dorms are sex-segregated (members of the opposite sex are not allowed), are inculcated in virtue, including chastity, and marry relatively early (early 20’s) and have lots of children. They don’t have much of an opportunity to engage in fornication and debauchery."

    While you state that the children in your community are taught community values, are there not anyone who chose not to partake in your community values? Have you met any bumps in the road personally? Only answer if you feel comfortable.

    Hypothetically how would react to any of your children abandoning your 'way of life'?

    How large is your catholic community? Does the denomination have a special name? Is it a movement?
  43. @EliteCommInc.
    It would be more interesting to see if any what the impact of the quarantine is having on marriages.

    It would be more interesting to see if any what the impact of the quarantine is having on marriages.

    It’s been great for my marriage. We’ve had time to talk about all sorts of things that we never did before. And I’m not talking about anything profound, just the ability to have an uninterrupted conversation about, I don’t know, whose responsibility it is to clean the coffee maker or whatever, can make a big difference in maintaining the domestic peace. We are living way too fast, without near enough down time, that much is increasingly clear to me.

    • Replies: @iffen
    We’ve had time to talk about all sorts of things that we never did before.

    Uh-oh.
  44. @vok3
    "Almost every relationship starts with casual sex. Like you hook up, then hook up again, then decide you like each other so it gets serious."

    This is raving lunacy.

    It may well be that this is how a plurality or even a majority of young adults today believe it should or does happen. It may well be that this is how they are trying to make it happen. But belief is not reality, and such attempts are foredoomed. This type of behavior does not produce long-lasting and stable pair bonds and families.

    The people who do NOT follow this path are the ones who end up with stable families.

    But belief is not reality, and such attempts are foredoomed.

    This is a massive overstatement of the case. It’s not ideal, certainly, but it is reality, like it or not.

    If you were to interview couples celebrating their tenth anniversary in 2020, what do you think would be the average length of time they dated before having sex? Less than a month? A week?

    • Replies: @SafeNow
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/09/e3/e9/09e3e9f7da741ca1d5ca1b24bea91037.jpg

    Yes, now, I suppose so. But I’m old enough to remember when it was different. Oh what a time, what a time.
  45. @jbwilson24
    "While committed long-term relationships are the surest way to have frequent sex"

    Until you have kids, and then it craters.

    Is this survey for heterosexuals only? Gay males are quite different in their behaviour.

    Until you have kids, and then it craters.

    Indeed, which is why I don’t understand why we have to talk about sex all the time on the right. It’s really not all that direly important in the scheme of things.

  46. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    I hope it will change in the future.

    The reason men work and struggle is for pussy. When increasing numbers of men have no hope at getting pussy, why bother going to work? Why bother making money?

    We know 30% of young men were sexless last year. How many got lucky once or twice? 30%? So at least 50% of young men can't get laid and realistically won't be able to. This suggests to me that something will have to change; you can't have a stable society based on this.

    Hence the push for porn, weed, Netflix, etc. As an attempt to pacify the sexless young guys. Even those nice guys in the 80s were getting laid because the institution of marriage was stronger.

    >Fathers don’t seem to be teaching their daughters that men are horny bastards and that sex is the most valuable gift a woman has, so she should use it sparingly in a casual setting.

    The orgasms last for seconds, the personality and habits last a lifetime.

    >The reason men work and struggle is for pussy.

    The reason animals work and struggle is for pussy. Human beings have the capability of being something better.

    Your posts reek of bitterness.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Yeah, I'm bitter as hell about everything. Way too bitter as a young guy.

    That said I'm correct on this point.

    You went from "LOL, you're so bitter, theres so much more to life than pussy" to "just improve yourself bro, it's easy once you self improve".

    It seems you agree with the premise. One self improves in order to get more pussy. Not for the sake of self improvement.

    I'm also not an incel, I'm just pointing out the truth about things.

  47. I doubt the Podestas’ sexual proclivities will change much. It’ll be more pizza and hot dogs for everyone.

  48. Perhaps those most inclined to engage in casual copulation are least inclined to be concerned about infectious diseases.

  49. @Twinkie

    The reason men work and struggle is for pussy. When increasing numbers of men have no hope at getting pussy, why bother going to work? Why bother making money?
     
    This is one of the saddest things I ever read on Unz. It says a lot about you and others like you.

    What exactly seems to you to be fallacious in his line of reasoning? He could have stated it in higher-toned language, but it seems to me that even in the vernacular, the premises are largely true and the argument is valid.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    What exactly seems to you to be fallacious in his line of reasoning?
     
    As "nebulafox" points out, we aren't animals and are (or should be) motivated by more than sexual gratification. The only reason men struggle, work, make money, etc. is for sex? That IS profoundly sad and misguided. For starters, what about for one's children? What about for God? What about for pursuit of excellence?

    While I agree that sexual desire is a very powerful motivator, it is not the only one. It definitely should not be the only one if a person is to be a whole human being. Otherwise, how would one be a good father or a good leader... or simply a good man?
  50. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Lol another delusional tradcuck.

    It's a great time to be a good looking man. I've already had 2 casual sex partners in 2020 and will probably have a 3rd soon.

    Horrible for society long term but I'd rather live in clown world and get laid than laid in clown world and be an incel.

    Almost every girl has casual sex partners btw. You're just not in on the secret.

    Two?…In 108 days?

    Way to go, Hef.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    2 fb

    I was getting it pretty regularly until this lockdown bullshit
  51. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    BLA BLA BLA

    delusional tradcuck back at it again.

    you live in a fantasy world you (and I) wish were true. The real world in 2020 is not like "The greatest gift a human being can give another is love, the essential component of which is sacrifice – that of giving generously without expecting reciprocation."

    When your son is an incel and your daughter is sleeping with Chads on rotation, come back and read this comment.

    What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know my family and I belong to a tightly-knit traditional Catholic community whose members homeschool together. The children of our community, by and large, attend universities such as Thomas Aquinas College where the dorms are sex-segregated (members of the opposite sex are not allowed), are inculcated in virtue, including chastity, and marry relatively early (early 20’s) and have lots of children. They don’t have much of an opportunity to engage in fornication and debauchery. I might also add that I have sons and daughters. I doubt you are even married or have a girlfriend let alone have children.

    • Thanks: LoutishAngloQuebecker
  52. @MBlanc46
    What exactly seems to you to be fallacious in his line of reasoning? He could have stated it in higher-toned language, but it seems to me that even in the vernacular, the premises are largely true and the argument is valid.

    What exactly seems to you to be fallacious in his line of reasoning?

    As “nebulafox” points out, we aren’t animals and are (or should be) motivated by more than sexual gratification. The only reason men struggle, work, make money, etc. is for sex? That IS profoundly sad and misguided. For starters, what about for one’s children? What about for God? What about for pursuit of excellence?

    While I agree that sexual desire is a very powerful motivator, it is not the only one. It definitely should not be the only one if a person is to be a whole human being. Otherwise, how would one be a good father or a good leader… or simply a good man?

    • Replies: @SFG
    sex=make children
    children=pass on offspring
    excellence=gain status=attract mates=make children

    You're a healthy great ape who's reached high status in his (large) pack and reproduced, living well in accordance with your animal nature instead of dying your hair purple and complaining. Nothing wrong with that! Indeed, it is the goal of most organisms.

    God, well, as a generally pro-religion atheist I won't comment.
    , @Bardon Kaldian
    Confucius speaks of higher & lower types of men (I would add, say- "middle" type). It depends on which percentage, in a given historical & cultural period, belongs to any of these 2 or 3 types.
  53. @Twinkie

    The reason men work and struggle is for pussy. When increasing numbers of men have no hope at getting pussy, why bother going to work? Why bother making money?
     
    This is one of the saddest things I ever read on Unz. It says a lot about you and others like you.

    Some basic truths are sad. I think he is generally right. If a man has no chance of attracting women what’s his incentive to work hard? Although ideally some men are in occupations they enjoy…doing what they love.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    >If a man has no chance of attracting women what’s his incentive to work hard?

    To overcome himself and become a better man: which leads to more happiness and positive life outcomes. And paradoxically, that'll solve the issue with women.

    The thing about a man who has seriously embarked on a course to become a superior individual is that it shows: and the women start to come. Not always, but more reliably than any other method I can think of. Working hard attracts the women, not the other way around. You'd be surprised how little it takes to be "above average" in the Millennial dating market. Same goes for women, BTW: not being obese or bitchy often does the trick.

    It's not like you've got to be a feminist to believe this. If you look at the manosphere stuff, half the material forgets that women are normal human beings who just have different biology and run the same gamut from saint to malicious that men do. It manifests differently for them, that doesn't mean the underlying human impulse isn't the same. But half of it is exactly what I'm talking about: and hits the nail right on the head. Don't reek of desperation: don't have a life that revolves around girls. Work on what you can control: yourself. Women love men who aren't obsessed with them. This used to be domain knowledge stuff, but in our age, it isn't: so, in a sense, they are providing a service that young men aren't going to find anywhere else...

    The problem isn't getting women, once you make serious progress on yourself. The problem is that many of these late bloomer guys will end up with the wrong woman the first time around. They don't have the experience yet to tell the warning signs, or the confidence to pull back and she'll undo a lot of the progress. A man who has been isolated and at the bottom of the barrel his whole life before that is going to understandably find the first attention he gets very difficult to resist, even if he knows better. But that's another thread for another day.

    , @dfordoom

    Some basic truths are sad. I think he is generally right. If a man has no chance of attracting women what’s his incentive to work hard?
     
    There's truth on both sides of this argument. Sex is a pretty major motivation for men and there's nothing wrong with that. That's just the way male sexuality works. Men who feel they have no chance of getting sex are obviously and understandably going to be disillusioned. And for men sex is a large part of the reason for becoming involved in a relationship with a woman. Not the only part, but a large part. While feminists may not like the idea it's still true that one of the obligations that marriage entails for a woman is to provide her husband with sex. If she doesn't then she's not keeping her side of the deal. She is in effect breaking her marriage vows.

    But of course Twinkie and others are right in saying that it's also unhealthy for men to be motivated purely by sex. And of course marriage is about a lot of things besides sex.

    There's a tendency on UR for people to adopt unnecessarily extreme views, to immediately form two armed opposing camps hurling invective at each other.

    And I think it has to be accepted that people vary widely in the importance they put on sex. The fact that sex is incredibly important to some men has to be accepted. We also have to accept (even if we don't like it) that for some men sex is an end in itself. That is very very rarely the case for women. Lots of women love sex, but for them it's not an end in itself.

    A sane society has to accept certain realities about sex and about male and female sexuality.
  54. @Jay Fink
    Some basic truths are sad. I think he is generally right. If a man has no chance of attracting women what's his incentive to work hard? Although ideally some men are in occupations they enjoy...doing what they love.

    >If a man has no chance of attracting women what’s his incentive to work hard?

    To overcome himself and become a better man: which leads to more happiness and positive life outcomes. And paradoxically, that’ll solve the issue with women.

    The thing about a man who has seriously embarked on a course to become a superior individual is that it shows: and the women start to come. Not always, but more reliably than any other method I can think of. Working hard attracts the women, not the other way around. You’d be surprised how little it takes to be “above average” in the Millennial dating market. Same goes for women, BTW: not being obese or bitchy often does the trick.

    It’s not like you’ve got to be a feminist to believe this. If you look at the manosphere stuff, half the material forgets that women are normal human beings who just have different biology and run the same gamut from saint to malicious that men do. It manifests differently for them, that doesn’t mean the underlying human impulse isn’t the same. But half of it is exactly what I’m talking about: and hits the nail right on the head. Don’t reek of desperation: don’t have a life that revolves around girls. Work on what you can control: yourself. Women love men who aren’t obsessed with them. This used to be domain knowledge stuff, but in our age, it isn’t: so, in a sense, they are providing a service that young men aren’t going to find anywhere else…

    The problem isn’t getting women, once you make serious progress on yourself. The problem is that many of these late bloomer guys will end up with the wrong woman the first time around. They don’t have the experience yet to tell the warning signs, or the confidence to pull back and she’ll undo a lot of the progress. A man who has been isolated and at the bottom of the barrel his whole life before that is going to understandably find the first attention he gets very difficult to resist, even if he knows better. But that’s another thread for another day.

    • Agree: Toronto Russian
    • Replies: @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    The accumulated wisdom of thousands of years is ignored because it conflicts with modern-day obsessions with equality and entitlement or is just inconvenient. So many people just don't know how to act like decent human beings anymore.

    Thanks for standing up for women. The contempt and outright hatred for women on the manosphere grates, along with the promotion of male promiscuity. White Sharia indeed.

    Neither sex if entitled to wear a halo. Good women are victimized by bad men and good men are victimized by bad women. Men complain that women see them as a money objects and women complain that men see them as sex objects. Society is disintegrating into all against all.
  55. @Rosie

    It would be more interesting to see if any what the impact of the quarantine is having on marriages.
     
    It's been great for my marriage. We've had time to talk about all sorts of things that we never did before. And I'm not talking about anything profound, just the ability to have an uninterrupted conversation about, I don't know, whose responsibility it is to clean the coffee maker or whatever, can make a big difference in maintaining the domestic peace. We are living way too fast, without near enough down time, that much is increasingly clear to me.

    We’ve had time to talk about all sorts of things that we never did before.

    Uh-oh.

  56. It’s the economy!

    Make family formation economically more feasible for more of the working class and they’ll get married and have babies.

    I’ve seen’em do it.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Make family formation economically more feasible for more of the working class and they’ll get married and have babies.
     
    I don't think affordable family formation is a magic cure-all but it would certainly help. A UBI might help a good deal in this respect.

    It's not just a matter of money. It's very much a matter of security. If you want people to get married and have kids you need to offer them a degree of financial security. A modest amount of money you can rely upon long-term is way more likely to be effective than a large amount short-term. That's why offering people one-off "baby bonuses" is entirely useless. A UBI might do the trick.

    Of course providing housing (not rental assistance but actual permanent housing) and healthcare is pretty much essential. Having kids when you're dependent on the private rental market is madness.
  57. @nebulafox
    >Fathers don’t seem to be teaching their daughters that men are horny bastards and that sex is the most valuable gift a woman has, so she should use it sparingly in a casual setting.

    The orgasms last for seconds, the personality and habits last a lifetime.

    >The reason men work and struggle is for pussy.

    The reason animals work and struggle is for pussy. Human beings have the capability of being something better.

    Your posts reek of bitterness.

    Yeah, I’m bitter as hell about everything. Way too bitter as a young guy.

    That said I’m correct on this point.

    You went from “LOL, you’re so bitter, theres so much more to life than pussy” to “just improve yourself bro, it’s easy once you self improve”.

    It seems you agree with the premise. One self improves in order to get more pussy. Not for the sake of self improvement.

    I’m also not an incel, I’m just pointing out the truth about things.

    • Replies: @Talha
    Eventually, hopefully, you’ll have a wife and kids...then a lot of what the veterans are saying around here will make sense. There are things you just have to experience; like looking across the table at the aging woman with growing wrinkles while realizing that he has cooked the majority of what you’ve eaten for the last 20 years and knowing that she has been worrying about the future of your children through the decades as well.

    I really like Imam Shadeed’s (I know he’s black, but just pretend he’s not if that makes it easier) advice on it, maybe it’ll be of use to you one day:
    https://www.twitter.com/Shadeed_M76/status/1232482538863628289

    Peace.
  58. @Truth
    Two?...In 108 days?

    Way to go, Hef.

    2 fb

    I was getting it pretty regularly until this lockdown bullshit

  59. “It’s been great for my marriage. We’ve had time to talk about all sorts of things that we never did before. ”

    I appreciate the response. One of the reasons I was curious is because on my walks I have seen more couples walking together or being out together than I ever saw before the current environment. And as someone wholly pro-marriage, my thoughts were positive. That this time may have been a great opportunity for husbands and wives, who lost in the grind of two jobs and or busy lives with kids had time to renew, rediscovery or revive their relationships a new.

    I am delighted to hear that Rosie. I don’t think you are alone.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    One of the reasons I was curious is because on my walks I have seen more couples walking together or being out together than I ever saw before the current environment.
     
    Just came back walking one of my dogs, and what you describe is certainly true in my neighborhood. I’ve seen more couples and families, often with their dogs too, out walking in the recent days than ever before. That’s a pretty good silver lining in the otherwise dark clouds of these days.
  60. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Lol another delusional tradcuck.

    It's a great time to be a good looking man. I've already had 2 casual sex partners in 2020 and will probably have a 3rd soon.

    Horrible for society long term but I'd rather live in clown world and get laid than laid in clown world and be an incel.

    Almost every girl has casual sex partners btw. You're just not in on the secret.

    Imagine how many times you might have gotten laid if you were married or at least had a steady girlfriend.

    What’s the going rate for prostitutes in your neck of the woods? The ultimate in casual sex.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Imagine how many times you might have gotten laid if you were married
     
    If he were married with a couple of kids, possibly he would have had even less sex. Marriages that become essentially sexless are a real problem. Feminism has encouraged women to use sex as a weapon. Quite a few now think it's OK if their husbands have to beg for it. They even think it's OK to refuse it altogether.

    Is there sex after marriage? For some people the answer is - pretty much no.

    Both men and women have become a lot more selfish, a lot less willing to accept that marriage (or any relationship) isn't about making yourself happy, it's about making the other person happy as well even if that involves some sacrifices and some compromises.
  61. @Twinkie

    The reason men work and struggle is for pussy. When increasing numbers of men have no hope at getting pussy, why bother going to work? Why bother making money?
     
    This is one of the saddest things I ever read on Unz. It says a lot about you and others like you.

    Not long ago, if an individual, male or female, wanted a steady supply of sex, to openly live with a member of the opposite sex and have family, he/she needed to marry and almost everyone wanted to. This incentivized a man to make something of himself in order to attract more and higher quality women. Even now, most women instinctively want a man who makes more than they do. The breakdown of sexual self-restraint, feminism, the welfare state and changes in the job market have devastated traditional ideals of marriage and family.

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    The breakdown of sexual self-restraint, feminism, the welfare state and changes in the job market have devastated traditional ideals of marriage and family.
     
    I agree, but there is a class/education dimension to this - the said breakdown has occurred primarily among the lower classes. Others and I have gone over this on this blog.
  62. Guys get phone numbers all the time from girls in bars they want to screw THAT NIGHT. Once they sober up, they decide that the effort needed to bang her isn’t worth it. How does that fit into the situation?

  63. @nebulafox
    >If a man has no chance of attracting women what’s his incentive to work hard?

    To overcome himself and become a better man: which leads to more happiness and positive life outcomes. And paradoxically, that'll solve the issue with women.

    The thing about a man who has seriously embarked on a course to become a superior individual is that it shows: and the women start to come. Not always, but more reliably than any other method I can think of. Working hard attracts the women, not the other way around. You'd be surprised how little it takes to be "above average" in the Millennial dating market. Same goes for women, BTW: not being obese or bitchy often does the trick.

    It's not like you've got to be a feminist to believe this. If you look at the manosphere stuff, half the material forgets that women are normal human beings who just have different biology and run the same gamut from saint to malicious that men do. It manifests differently for them, that doesn't mean the underlying human impulse isn't the same. But half of it is exactly what I'm talking about: and hits the nail right on the head. Don't reek of desperation: don't have a life that revolves around girls. Work on what you can control: yourself. Women love men who aren't obsessed with them. This used to be domain knowledge stuff, but in our age, it isn't: so, in a sense, they are providing a service that young men aren't going to find anywhere else...

    The problem isn't getting women, once you make serious progress on yourself. The problem is that many of these late bloomer guys will end up with the wrong woman the first time around. They don't have the experience yet to tell the warning signs, or the confidence to pull back and she'll undo a lot of the progress. A man who has been isolated and at the bottom of the barrel his whole life before that is going to understandably find the first attention he gets very difficult to resist, even if he knows better. But that's another thread for another day.

    The accumulated wisdom of thousands of years is ignored because it conflicts with modern-day obsessions with equality and entitlement or is just inconvenient. So many people just don’t know how to act like decent human beings anymore.

    Thanks for standing up for women. The contempt and outright hatred for women on the manosphere grates, along with the promotion of male promiscuity. White Sharia indeed.

    Neither sex if entitled to wear a halo. Good women are victimized by bad men and good men are victimized by bad women. Men complain that women see them as a money objects and women complain that men see them as sex objects. Society is disintegrating into all against all.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Thanks for standing up for women. The contempt and outright hatred for women on the manosphere grates, along with the promotion of male promiscuity. White Sharia indeed.

    Neither sex is entitled to wear a halo. Good women are victimized by bad men and good men are victimized by bad women. Men complain that women see them as a money objects and women complain that men see them as sex objects. Society is disintegrating into all against all.
     
    Yes I agree with that. We have to accept that both men and women have come to regard selfishness as normal. But that's the logic of a consumerist society.

    And the tendency of men to blame women for all their problem and for women to blame men for all their problems is hopelessly destructive.

    When you have a society based on self-interest (which is just a nice way of saying greed and selfishness) this is what you're going to end up with. It's not just a problem with marriage or sex it's a much deeper societal problem. We now live in the world Margaret Thatcher wanted, where there's no such thing as society. Just individuals, all out for themselves.

    I can understand why some men are disillusioned enough or desperate enough to be attracted to the manosphere but it's a dead end both personally and societally.
    , @nebulafox
    >Thanks for standing up for women. The contempt and outright hatred for women on the manosphere grates, along with the promotion of male promiscuity. White Sharia indeed.

    I think if you aren't a psychopath or an idiot, you can sift out the useful stuff about self-improvement/how you were lied to by mainstream culture about women from the misogynistic BS that make women into half-demonic, half-subhuman creatures. I mean: it's kind of sad if you are going to spend so much time and effort into attracting people you don't even like. That's so hollow.

    Moreover, I'm just stating what should be common sense truth. It's a sad statement about Internet culture that there seem to be so many angry, bitter people out there who hate the opposite sex. It never seems to occur to them that their romantic problems are probably partly caused by the anger and bitterness, particularly the men: women are generally a lot more subtly attuned than we are, they can detect this kind of thing.

    There's such a thing as going too far in the understandable push-back against the universalist pablum that we get treated to in Western culture, whether it is about race or sex or religion or whatever. We're all human beings who basically want the same things out of life at the end of day: a good mate, financial security, health, friends. It'd do us well to not forget that and not replace one extreme with another.

  64. @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    Not long ago, if an individual, male or female, wanted a steady supply of sex, to openly live with a member of the opposite sex and have family, he/she needed to marry and almost everyone wanted to. This incentivized a man to make something of himself in order to attract more and higher quality women. Even now, most women instinctively want a man who makes more than they do. The breakdown of sexual self-restraint, feminism, the welfare state and changes in the job market have devastated traditional ideals of marriage and family.

    The breakdown of sexual self-restraint, feminism, the welfare state and changes in the job market have devastated traditional ideals of marriage and family.

    I agree, but there is a class/education dimension to this – the said breakdown has occurred primarily among the lower classes. Others and I have gone over this on this blog.

    • Replies: @Mark G.

    I agree, but there is a class/education dimension to this – the said breakdown has occurred primarily among the lower classes.
     
    The upper classes here in the U.S. used to practice what they preached. Now they practice what they don't preach while the lower classes preach what they don't practice. The upper classes still live a conservative lifestyle but have become more nonjudgmental acting. Poorer people are engaging in worse behavior than before while still are more likely to say something is wrong. So you might see polls showing wealthier people are less likely to oppose legalization of drugs, abortions and gay sex or more likely to approve of out of wedlock sex or adultery. This is in spite of the fact that as you go up the income scale all these things decrease.
    , @dfordoom


    The breakdown of sexual self-restraint, feminism, the welfare state and changes in the job market have devastated traditional ideals of marriage and family.
     
    I agree, but there is a class/education dimension to this – the said breakdown has occurred primarily among the lower classes.
     
    The breakdown of sexual self-restraint and feminism began with the middle classes. They spread to the lower classes. I'd agree though that they have have had a much more devastating effect on the lower classes.

    The breakdown of sexual self-restraint and feminism are things that work reasonably well for the privileged classes. Degeneracy is something the privileged have always been able to indulge in. And the privileged classes have seen the resultant devastation of the lower classes as a feature rather than a bug.
  65. @EliteCommInc.
    "It’s been great for my marriage. We’ve had time to talk about all sorts of things that we never did before. "


    I appreciate the response. One of the reasons I was curious is because on my walks I have seen more couples walking together or being out together than I ever saw before the current environment. And as someone wholly pro-marriage, my thoughts were positive. That this time may have been a great opportunity for husbands and wives, who lost in the grind of two jobs and or busy lives with kids had time to renew, rediscovery or revive their relationships a new.


    I am delighted to hear that Rosie. I don't think you are alone.

    One of the reasons I was curious is because on my walks I have seen more couples walking together or being out together than I ever saw before the current environment.

    Just came back walking one of my dogs, and what you describe is certainly true in my neighborhood. I’ve seen more couples and families, often with their dogs too, out walking in the recent days than ever before. That’s a pretty good silver lining in the otherwise dark clouds of these days.

  66. @Twinkie

    What exactly seems to you to be fallacious in his line of reasoning?
     
    As "nebulafox" points out, we aren't animals and are (or should be) motivated by more than sexual gratification. The only reason men struggle, work, make money, etc. is for sex? That IS profoundly sad and misguided. For starters, what about for one's children? What about for God? What about for pursuit of excellence?

    While I agree that sexual desire is a very powerful motivator, it is not the only one. It definitely should not be the only one if a person is to be a whole human being. Otherwise, how would one be a good father or a good leader... or simply a good man?

    sex=make children
    children=pass on offspring
    excellence=gain status=attract mates=make children

    You’re a healthy great ape who’s reached high status in his (large) pack and reproduced, living well in accordance with your animal nature instead of dying your hair purple and complaining. Nothing wrong with that! Indeed, it is the goal of most organisms.

    God, well, as a generally pro-religion atheist I won’t comment.

  67. @Twinkie

    I’ve also noticed that people really aren’t broad-minded enough, perhaps as a result of over-choice paralysis.
     
    So, today’s Western sexual market is much like today’s Western grocery store - 79 different kinds of breakfast cereal leading to consumer over-sampling and choice-paralysis. In the end, the consumers end up getting fat and unhealthy anyway.

    That was a joke, but it’s actually a very good observation about what happens when you only satisfy immediate drives–the same is true with food and sex.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    It was a joke?
  68. @SafeNow
    “sex is the most valuable gift a woman has”

    Not even wrong.
    Empathy, compassion, support, an inquiring mind, a good humor. Fairmindedness; relief from the unremitting subjectivity of testosterone-driven unfairmindedness. And, telling me I am terrific, even though I suspect I am not so terrific.

    Sex itself is not the most valuable thing a woman can give a man. It’s sexual loyalty.

    Also, women are anything but fair-minded. That’s a pretty cuck thing to imply.

  69. @Jay Fink
    Some basic truths are sad. I think he is generally right. If a man has no chance of attracting women what's his incentive to work hard? Although ideally some men are in occupations they enjoy...doing what they love.

    Some basic truths are sad. I think he is generally right. If a man has no chance of attracting women what’s his incentive to work hard?

    There’s truth on both sides of this argument. Sex is a pretty major motivation for men and there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s just the way male sexuality works. Men who feel they have no chance of getting sex are obviously and understandably going to be disillusioned. And for men sex is a large part of the reason for becoming involved in a relationship with a woman. Not the only part, but a large part. While feminists may not like the idea it’s still true that one of the obligations that marriage entails for a woman is to provide her husband with sex. If she doesn’t then she’s not keeping her side of the deal. She is in effect breaking her marriage vows.

    But of course Twinkie and others are right in saying that it’s also unhealthy for men to be motivated purely by sex. And of course marriage is about a lot of things besides sex.

    There’s a tendency on UR for people to adopt unnecessarily extreme views, to immediately form two armed opposing camps hurling invective at each other.

    And I think it has to be accepted that people vary widely in the importance they put on sex. The fact that sex is incredibly important to some men has to be accepted. We also have to accept (even if we don’t like it) that for some men sex is an end in itself. That is very very rarely the case for women. Lots of women love sex, but for them it’s not an end in itself.

    A sane society has to accept certain realities about sex and about male and female sexuality.

    • Replies: @res

    There’s a tendency on UR for people to adopt unnecessarily extreme views, to immediately form two armed opposing camps hurling invective at each other.
     
    Indeed. COVID-19 has really showcased this behavior.

    P.S. Good observations overall in your comment.
    , @iffen
    There’s a tendency on UR for people to adopt unnecessarily extreme views, to immediately form two armed opposing camps hurling invective at each other.

    If we didn't have the extremists, we wouldn't know where to locate the mushy middle.
  70. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Almost every relationship starts with casual sex. Like you hook up, then hook up again, then decide you like each other so it gets serious.

    How disgusting and sad, if true.

    You should actually know the woman, her personality, and something about her character, values, viewpoints, interests, and your points of commonality and difference, before sleeping together, no?

    How’s the hook-up-first approach going for us? Terribly low rates of marriage and fertility suggest it’s not going well, as do increasing rates of dead-end sexual deviancy, “dying without issue”, and dying alone.

  71. @SafeNow
    In much of Southern California, Asian massage parlors are ubiquitous. I wonder what will become of the employees, and, as Paul Simon put it in The Boxer, the clientele who took some comfort there.

    There’s absolutely no apparent reason why these practices need to change because of this virus. Or any other societal practice.

    There is no reliable data on the number of people infected, so we have no idea of the mortality rate.

    It appears that some governments, like the State of Minnesota, are directing doctors to call deaths “caused by covid-19” when (1) the person sometimes was never even tested for this virus, or (2) the person tested positive for the virus but there are grave comorbidity factors and the virus may not have “caused” or even much accelerated the death of an already old and sickly person.

    There is no reason to think that the virus poses any serious risk of death — certainly not much more than a bad strain of flu — to people who are not already elderly and weak and/or already have a respiratory problem (like heavy long term smokers and/or people with COPD) or uncontrolled substantial hypertension.

    How many non-elderly people have died after having a verified positive covid-19 test, compared to the number of non-elderly people who usually die from flu and pneumonia in a typical month or year? Crickets….

  72. @iffen
    It's the economy!

    Make family formation economically more feasible for more of the working class and they'll get married and have babies.

    I've seen'em do it.

    Make family formation economically more feasible for more of the working class and they’ll get married and have babies.

    I don’t think affordable family formation is a magic cure-all but it would certainly help. A UBI might help a good deal in this respect.

    It’s not just a matter of money. It’s very much a matter of security. If you want people to get married and have kids you need to offer them a degree of financial security. A modest amount of money you can rely upon long-term is way more likely to be effective than a large amount short-term. That’s why offering people one-off “baby bonuses” is entirely useless. A UBI might do the trick.

    Of course providing housing (not rental assistance but actual permanent housing) and healthcare is pretty much essential. Having kids when you’re dependent on the private rental market is madness.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Having kids when you’re dependent on the private rental market is madness.
     
    Agreed. How do you plan if you don't know how much you're going to be paying for rent next year? I couldn't live like that, personally.

    It’s not just a matter of money. It’s very much a matter of security.
     
    Yep. How many more women would choose to ditch the job and have a second, third, or fourth child if they knew that, come what may, they'll always have a little bit of money coming in, guaranteed.
  73. @Twinkie

    The breakdown of sexual self-restraint, feminism, the welfare state and changes in the job market have devastated traditional ideals of marriage and family.
     
    I agree, but there is a class/education dimension to this - the said breakdown has occurred primarily among the lower classes. Others and I have gone over this on this blog.

    I agree, but there is a class/education dimension to this – the said breakdown has occurred primarily among the lower classes.

    The upper classes here in the U.S. used to practice what they preached. Now they practice what they don’t preach while the lower classes preach what they don’t practice. The upper classes still live a conservative lifestyle but have become more nonjudgmental acting. Poorer people are engaging in worse behavior than before while still are more likely to say something is wrong. So you might see polls showing wealthier people are less likely to oppose legalization of drugs, abortions and gay sex or more likely to approve of out of wedlock sex or adultery. This is in spite of the fact that as you go up the income scale all these things decrease.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  74. @jbwilson24
    "While committed long-term relationships are the surest way to have frequent sex"

    Until you have kids, and then it craters.

    Is this survey for heterosexuals only? Gay males are quite different in their behaviour.

    Homosexual (not “gay”) males are a tiny part of the population, media overrepresentation and glorification notwithstanding. Both their nature and their infrequent incidence in the population make them not particularly meaningful for analysis of the rest of us.

    Why are we now in the habit of always wondering about this very small, unrepresentative group of people? We ordinarily don’t do so for other people suffering from a fairly rare psychological disorder.

    As for sex between husband and wife after having children, your point generally seems right — but that seems to depend on how many children the couple has, and how much physical space and privacy the couple still has.

    Then there’s the issue of greater contentment even with less frequent sex. Yes, even for men, hard as that would have been for me to believe at one time.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Why are we now in the habit of always wondering about this very small, unrepresentative group of people? We ordinarily don’t do so for other people suffering from a fairly rare psychological disorder.
     
    Because our entire culture these days is largely homosexual culture. (Perhaps in some ways it may even be true that western high culture since the Renaissance has been to a large extent a homosexual culture). Homosexuals set the tone for our society and culture. They define our social and sexual mores.

    Since they're the ones in control I guess it pays to know how they're thinking. They are our masters after all.
  75. @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    Imagine how many times you might have gotten laid if you were married or at least had a steady girlfriend.

    What's the going rate for prostitutes in your neck of the woods? The ultimate in casual sex.

    Imagine how many times you might have gotten laid if you were married

    If he were married with a couple of kids, possibly he would have had even less sex. Marriages that become essentially sexless are a real problem. Feminism has encouraged women to use sex as a weapon. Quite a few now think it’s OK if their husbands have to beg for it. They even think it’s OK to refuse it altogether.

    Is there sex after marriage? For some people the answer is – pretty much no.

    Both men and women have become a lot more selfish, a lot less willing to accept that marriage (or any relationship) isn’t about making yourself happy, it’s about making the other person happy as well even if that involves some sacrifices and some compromises.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Most married men seem sexually frustrated.

    If I'm only getting laid once a month, might as well be single and free instead of dealing with a Bitch and still barely getting it.

    The Bible has an answer to this, do not sexually deprive your spouse.

    Even if women don't want it they should have it freely because it's good for their marriage. Instead they go to dildos, boxed wine and Netflix to keep them happy personally while the marriage is ruined. It's about compromise and married women no longer compromise about sex in order to keep their husbands happy.

    I'm too young to be married anyways right now. Almost all my friends would be classified as incel, apparently I'm the only one with the chutzpah to be interested in women. The world is in a sad state.
  76. @Twinkie

    What exactly seems to you to be fallacious in his line of reasoning?
     
    As "nebulafox" points out, we aren't animals and are (or should be) motivated by more than sexual gratification. The only reason men struggle, work, make money, etc. is for sex? That IS profoundly sad and misguided. For starters, what about for one's children? What about for God? What about for pursuit of excellence?

    While I agree that sexual desire is a very powerful motivator, it is not the only one. It definitely should not be the only one if a person is to be a whole human being. Otherwise, how would one be a good father or a good leader... or simply a good man?

    Confucius speaks of higher & lower types of men (I would add, say- “middle” type). It depends on which percentage, in a given historical & cultural period, belongs to any of these 2 or 3 types.

  77. @dfordoom

    Imagine how many times you might have gotten laid if you were married
     
    If he were married with a couple of kids, possibly he would have had even less sex. Marriages that become essentially sexless are a real problem. Feminism has encouraged women to use sex as a weapon. Quite a few now think it's OK if their husbands have to beg for it. They even think it's OK to refuse it altogether.

    Is there sex after marriage? For some people the answer is - pretty much no.

    Both men and women have become a lot more selfish, a lot less willing to accept that marriage (or any relationship) isn't about making yourself happy, it's about making the other person happy as well even if that involves some sacrifices and some compromises.

    Most married men seem sexually frustrated.

    If I’m only getting laid once a month, might as well be single and free instead of dealing with a Bitch and still barely getting it.

    The Bible has an answer to this, do not sexually deprive your spouse.

    Even if women don’t want it they should have it freely because it’s good for their marriage. Instead they go to dildos, boxed wine and Netflix to keep them happy personally while the marriage is ruined. It’s about compromise and married women no longer compromise about sex in order to keep their husbands happy.

    I’m too young to be married anyways right now. Almost all my friends would be classified as incel, apparently I’m the only one with the chutzpah to be interested in women. The world is in a sad state.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    The Bible has an answer to this, do not sexually deprive your spouse.
     
    Yes I agree with that. I don't know if it's in the Bible or not (having only ever read bits and pieces) but I agree with the sentiment. I've known married men who've said that sex is now nothing but a dim memory for them.

    Even if women don’t want it they should have it freely because it’s good for their marriage. Instead they go to dildos, boxed wine and Netflix to keep them happy personally while the marriage is ruined. It’s about compromise and married women no longer compromise about sex in order to keep their husbands happy.
     
    I kinda have to agree with that as well. If a woman is not going to have sex with her husband she has no business thinking she's entitled to all the advantages of being married.

    As I've said elsewhere I don't buy the argument that everything is the fault of women and I don't agree with the woman-hatred of the manosphere. But women do have to accept that having sex is an essential part of marriage. I'm not saying it's the be-all and end-all of marriage, I'm not even saying it's the most important element, but it is one of the essential ingredients. And depriving a husband of sex is simply wrong. Men should accept that marriage is about a lot more than sex but sex is something a married man should feel entitled to expect.

    Just blaming women won't help. Women have been taught that they have the right to use sex as a weapon and that's disastrous.

    I now this will appal a lot of people here but if a married woman genuinely can't stand the idea of having sex any longer maybe she should allow her husband to get sex elsewhere. Or even encourage him to do so. In the past this was a solution that some married couples did adopt - the wife would tolerate her husband's having affairs or visiting whores. Maybe not an ideal solution, but possibly better than expecting him to live without sex and then complaining when the marriage falls apart.
    , @MarkinLA
    Having kids and spending the necessary time and effort making them responsible and happy adults requires a big sacrifice in terms of the time and effort needed to keep yourself sexually desirable.

    Yeah, the man may be just as out of shape and unappealing as the wife but the woman can be coaxed into it more easily than the visually oriented man.
  78. @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    The accumulated wisdom of thousands of years is ignored because it conflicts with modern-day obsessions with equality and entitlement or is just inconvenient. So many people just don't know how to act like decent human beings anymore.

    Thanks for standing up for women. The contempt and outright hatred for women on the manosphere grates, along with the promotion of male promiscuity. White Sharia indeed.

    Neither sex if entitled to wear a halo. Good women are victimized by bad men and good men are victimized by bad women. Men complain that women see them as a money objects and women complain that men see them as sex objects. Society is disintegrating into all against all.

    Thanks for standing up for women. The contempt and outright hatred for women on the manosphere grates, along with the promotion of male promiscuity. White Sharia indeed.

    Neither sex is entitled to wear a halo. Good women are victimized by bad men and good men are victimized by bad women. Men complain that women see them as a money objects and women complain that men see them as sex objects. Society is disintegrating into all against all.

    Yes I agree with that. We have to accept that both men and women have come to regard selfishness as normal. But that’s the logic of a consumerist society.

    And the tendency of men to blame women for all their problem and for women to blame men for all their problems is hopelessly destructive.

    When you have a society based on self-interest (which is just a nice way of saying greed and selfishness) this is what you’re going to end up with. It’s not just a problem with marriage or sex it’s a much deeper societal problem. We now live in the world Margaret Thatcher wanted, where there’s no such thing as society. Just individuals, all out for themselves.

    I can understand why some men are disillusioned enough or desperate enough to be attracted to the manosphere but it’s a dead end both personally and societally.

    • Replies: @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    Terrific answer! We live in a society like "Brave New World," an atomized sociopathic population dedicated to the pursuit of status, stuff and sex, and kept doped on drugs to deal the loneliness of existence.

    The bad joke of what passes for "conservatism" thinks that this is fine.
  79. @Twinkie

    The breakdown of sexual self-restraint, feminism, the welfare state and changes in the job market have devastated traditional ideals of marriage and family.
     
    I agree, but there is a class/education dimension to this - the said breakdown has occurred primarily among the lower classes. Others and I have gone over this on this blog.

    The breakdown of sexual self-restraint, feminism, the welfare state and changes in the job market have devastated traditional ideals of marriage and family.

    I agree, but there is a class/education dimension to this – the said breakdown has occurred primarily among the lower classes.

    The breakdown of sexual self-restraint and feminism began with the middle classes. They spread to the lower classes. I’d agree though that they have have had a much more devastating effect on the lower classes.

    The breakdown of sexual self-restraint and feminism are things that work reasonably well for the privileged classes. Degeneracy is something the privileged have always been able to indulge in. And the privileged classes have seen the resultant devastation of the lower classes as a feature rather than a bug.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    There has always been a high degree of degeneracy among the rich because they have the spare time and money to indulge and will be subsidized by their family if they destroy themselves. Divorce was not uncommon among the rich when it was rare and disapproved of by the middle and lower classes.

    The middle class can subsidize to a lesser degree, but the poor end up on welfare. Someone on the bottom can't sink much lower.
  80. @RadicalCenter
    Homosexual (not “gay”) males are a tiny part of the population, media overrepresentation and glorification notwithstanding. Both their nature and their infrequent incidence in the population make them not particularly meaningful for analysis of the rest of us.

    Why are we now in the habit of always wondering about this very small, unrepresentative group of people? We ordinarily don’t do so for other people suffering from a fairly rare psychological disorder.

    As for sex between husband and wife after having children, your point generally seems right — but that seems to depend on how many children the couple has, and how much physical space and privacy the couple still has.

    Then there’s the issue of greater contentment even with less frequent sex. Yes, even for men, hard as that would have been for me to believe at one time.

    Why are we now in the habit of always wondering about this very small, unrepresentative group of people? We ordinarily don’t do so for other people suffering from a fairly rare psychological disorder.

    Because our entire culture these days is largely homosexual culture. (Perhaps in some ways it may even be true that western high culture since the Renaissance has been to a large extent a homosexual culture). Homosexuals set the tone for our society and culture. They define our social and sexual mores.

    Since they’re the ones in control I guess it pays to know how they’re thinking. They are our masters after all.

  81. @dfordoom

    Thanks for standing up for women. The contempt and outright hatred for women on the manosphere grates, along with the promotion of male promiscuity. White Sharia indeed.

    Neither sex is entitled to wear a halo. Good women are victimized by bad men and good men are victimized by bad women. Men complain that women see them as a money objects and women complain that men see them as sex objects. Society is disintegrating into all against all.
     
    Yes I agree with that. We have to accept that both men and women have come to regard selfishness as normal. But that's the logic of a consumerist society.

    And the tendency of men to blame women for all their problem and for women to blame men for all their problems is hopelessly destructive.

    When you have a society based on self-interest (which is just a nice way of saying greed and selfishness) this is what you're going to end up with. It's not just a problem with marriage or sex it's a much deeper societal problem. We now live in the world Margaret Thatcher wanted, where there's no such thing as society. Just individuals, all out for themselves.

    I can understand why some men are disillusioned enough or desperate enough to be attracted to the manosphere but it's a dead end both personally and societally.

    Terrific answer! We live in a society like “Brave New World,” an atomized sociopathic population dedicated to the pursuit of status, stuff and sex, and kept doped on drugs to deal the loneliness of existence.

    The bad joke of what passes for “conservatism” thinks that this is fine.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Terrific answer! We live in a society like “Brave New World,” an atomized sociopathic population dedicated to the pursuit of status, stuff and sex, and kept doped on drugs to deal the loneliness of existence.
     
    The use of drugs to anaesthetise us is one of the saddest aspects of modern society.

    We've lost a sense of balance. Sex is a good thing but if it dominates your life it becomes a bad thing. Consumer goods are very nice things to have and there's nothing wrong with that but if you think they're going to be enough to make life worth living you're in for a disappointment. Even the pursuit of status is not inherently a bad thing - there's nothing wrong with wanting to get recognition for achievement but if that's all you live for you're going to end up with an empty life. Having a few drinks is very pleasant. Being an alcoholic is very unpleasant.

    We need some stuff and we need some pleasure (even pleasure for the mere sake of pleasure) but they're things that need to be kept in balance. Too much stuff and too much pleasure will destroy a person.

    And yes, the atomisation is a problem and again it's a matter of balance. A society of individuals pursuing their own interests is no society at all, but a society that leaves no room for the individual is just as bad.

    A society organised entirely around the needs of men (the ideal of the manosphere) would be disastrous, and a society organised entirely around the needs of women (the ideal of feminists) would be just as disastrous.

    This is all really really obvious stuff but it seems that we've become unable to see the obvious.

    The bad joke of what passes for “conservatism” thinks that this is fine.
     
    “Conservatism” is indeed a bad joke. It needs to die.
  82. @dfordoom


    The breakdown of sexual self-restraint, feminism, the welfare state and changes in the job market have devastated traditional ideals of marriage and family.
     
    I agree, but there is a class/education dimension to this – the said breakdown has occurred primarily among the lower classes.
     
    The breakdown of sexual self-restraint and feminism began with the middle classes. They spread to the lower classes. I'd agree though that they have have had a much more devastating effect on the lower classes.

    The breakdown of sexual self-restraint and feminism are things that work reasonably well for the privileged classes. Degeneracy is something the privileged have always been able to indulge in. And the privileged classes have seen the resultant devastation of the lower classes as a feature rather than a bug.

    There has always been a high degree of degeneracy among the rich because they have the spare time and money to indulge and will be subsidized by their family if they destroy themselves. Divorce was not uncommon among the rich when it was rare and disapproved of by the middle and lower classes.

    The middle class can subsidize to a lesser degree, but the poor end up on welfare. Someone on the bottom can’t sink much lower.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    There has always been a high degree of degeneracy among the rich because they have the spare time and money to indulge and will be subsidized by their family if they destroy themselves.
     
    It's just not realistic for the lower classes to try to live the way the upper class lives. But when the lower classes get to see the way the upper classes live (and get their noses rubbed in it) they naturally want to do so.

    A good deal of what passes for popular entertainment is basically wealthy lifestyle porn. Just as porn makes men think they should be able to have an unlimited supply of gorgeous sexually insatiable women wealthy lifestyle porn makes people think that the key to happiness is have an unlimited supply of expensive cars, Malibu beach houses and designer clothes. It makes women think they are all entitled to hot high-status men and it makes men think they're all entitled to supermodel girlfriends because that's what rich people have.

    Wealthy lifestyle porn may be the most dangerous of all forms of porn.
  83. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Most married men seem sexually frustrated.

    If I'm only getting laid once a month, might as well be single and free instead of dealing with a Bitch and still barely getting it.

    The Bible has an answer to this, do not sexually deprive your spouse.

    Even if women don't want it they should have it freely because it's good for their marriage. Instead they go to dildos, boxed wine and Netflix to keep them happy personally while the marriage is ruined. It's about compromise and married women no longer compromise about sex in order to keep their husbands happy.

    I'm too young to be married anyways right now. Almost all my friends would be classified as incel, apparently I'm the only one with the chutzpah to be interested in women. The world is in a sad state.

    The Bible has an answer to this, do not sexually deprive your spouse.

    Yes I agree with that. I don’t know if it’s in the Bible or not (having only ever read bits and pieces) but I agree with the sentiment. I’ve known married men who’ve said that sex is now nothing but a dim memory for them.

    Even if women don’t want it they should have it freely because it’s good for their marriage. Instead they go to dildos, boxed wine and Netflix to keep them happy personally while the marriage is ruined. It’s about compromise and married women no longer compromise about sex in order to keep their husbands happy.

    I kinda have to agree with that as well. If a woman is not going to have sex with her husband she has no business thinking she’s entitled to all the advantages of being married.

    As I’ve said elsewhere I don’t buy the argument that everything is the fault of women and I don’t agree with the woman-hatred of the manosphere. But women do have to accept that having sex is an essential part of marriage. I’m not saying it’s the be-all and end-all of marriage, I’m not even saying it’s the most important element, but it is one of the essential ingredients. And depriving a husband of sex is simply wrong. Men should accept that marriage is about a lot more than sex but sex is something a married man should feel entitled to expect.

    Just blaming women won’t help. Women have been taught that they have the right to use sex as a weapon and that’s disastrous.

    I now this will appal a lot of people here but if a married woman genuinely can’t stand the idea of having sex any longer maybe she should allow her husband to get sex elsewhere. Or even encourage him to do so. In the past this was a solution that some married couples did adopt – the wife would tolerate her husband’s having affairs or visiting whores. Maybe not an ideal solution, but possibly better than expecting him to live without sex and then complaining when the marriage falls apart.

    • Replies: @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    It's so bizarre - some women are, uh, affectionate before they wed but suffer from perpetual headaches afterwards, especially after the kids come along.

    Dr. Laura Schlessinger has warned her female listeners repeatedly that if they don't make him happy in that manner, he'll find someone who will. Ugly situation, but I understand if a man does.

    In times past, a woman might tolerate her husband visiting prostitutes or even keeping a mistress because he wasn't going to leave her for a floozy and she didn't want to go through life perpetually pregnant.

    Agree with everything you wrote.

    I checked your website and bookmarked it. Will be visiting regularly.

    , @Wency

    I don’t know if it’s in the Bible or not (having only ever read bits and pieces)
     
    Oh, it's packed with good stuff.

    Yes, establish early on that sexually satisfying one another is an integral and inescapable part of your marriage.

    1 Corinthians 7:2-5

    But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
     
    And most importantly, marry well:

    Proverbs 12:4

    An excellent wife is the crown of her husband,
    but she who brings shame is like rottenness in his bones.
     
    I've known a man with rotting bones (bone cancer), and I've known men who married poorly, and to be honest the man with the rotting bones was happier -- he married well.
  84. @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    Terrific answer! We live in a society like "Brave New World," an atomized sociopathic population dedicated to the pursuit of status, stuff and sex, and kept doped on drugs to deal the loneliness of existence.

    The bad joke of what passes for "conservatism" thinks that this is fine.

    Terrific answer! We live in a society like “Brave New World,” an atomized sociopathic population dedicated to the pursuit of status, stuff and sex, and kept doped on drugs to deal the loneliness of existence.

    The use of drugs to anaesthetise us is one of the saddest aspects of modern society.

    We’ve lost a sense of balance. Sex is a good thing but if it dominates your life it becomes a bad thing. Consumer goods are very nice things to have and there’s nothing wrong with that but if you think they’re going to be enough to make life worth living you’re in for a disappointment. Even the pursuit of status is not inherently a bad thing – there’s nothing wrong with wanting to get recognition for achievement but if that’s all you live for you’re going to end up with an empty life. Having a few drinks is very pleasant. Being an alcoholic is very unpleasant.

    We need some stuff and we need some pleasure (even pleasure for the mere sake of pleasure) but they’re things that need to be kept in balance. Too much stuff and too much pleasure will destroy a person.

    And yes, the atomisation is a problem and again it’s a matter of balance. A society of individuals pursuing their own interests is no society at all, but a society that leaves no room for the individual is just as bad.

    A society organised entirely around the needs of men (the ideal of the manosphere) would be disastrous, and a society organised entirely around the needs of women (the ideal of feminists) would be just as disastrous.

    This is all really really obvious stuff but it seems that we’ve become unable to see the obvious.

    The bad joke of what passes for “conservatism” thinks that this is fine.

    “Conservatism” is indeed a bad joke. It needs to die.

  85. “Just came back walking one of my dogs, and what you describe is certainly true in my neighborhood.’

    That’s really great to hear.
    —————————-

    I remain as jealous as ever of people who are married. I thoght after getting my master’s with so many opportunities for work in so many areas, i could finally sette down and attnd to that possibility. Laugh . . .

    “So says the teacher,

    “You don’t whether the wind blows . . . . , how can one plan for tomorrow?”

    paraphrased and a stretch o context — but it has salience for for the last twenty years.

  86. @dfordoom

    Some basic truths are sad. I think he is generally right. If a man has no chance of attracting women what’s his incentive to work hard?
     
    There's truth on both sides of this argument. Sex is a pretty major motivation for men and there's nothing wrong with that. That's just the way male sexuality works. Men who feel they have no chance of getting sex are obviously and understandably going to be disillusioned. And for men sex is a large part of the reason for becoming involved in a relationship with a woman. Not the only part, but a large part. While feminists may not like the idea it's still true that one of the obligations that marriage entails for a woman is to provide her husband with sex. If she doesn't then she's not keeping her side of the deal. She is in effect breaking her marriage vows.

    But of course Twinkie and others are right in saying that it's also unhealthy for men to be motivated purely by sex. And of course marriage is about a lot of things besides sex.

    There's a tendency on UR for people to adopt unnecessarily extreme views, to immediately form two armed opposing camps hurling invective at each other.

    And I think it has to be accepted that people vary widely in the importance they put on sex. The fact that sex is incredibly important to some men has to be accepted. We also have to accept (even if we don't like it) that for some men sex is an end in itself. That is very very rarely the case for women. Lots of women love sex, but for them it's not an end in itself.

    A sane society has to accept certain realities about sex and about male and female sexuality.

    There’s a tendency on UR for people to adopt unnecessarily extreme views, to immediately form two armed opposing camps hurling invective at each other.

    Indeed. COVID-19 has really showcased this behavior.

    P.S. Good observations overall in your comment.

  87. @dfordoom

    Some basic truths are sad. I think he is generally right. If a man has no chance of attracting women what’s his incentive to work hard?
     
    There's truth on both sides of this argument. Sex is a pretty major motivation for men and there's nothing wrong with that. That's just the way male sexuality works. Men who feel they have no chance of getting sex are obviously and understandably going to be disillusioned. And for men sex is a large part of the reason for becoming involved in a relationship with a woman. Not the only part, but a large part. While feminists may not like the idea it's still true that one of the obligations that marriage entails for a woman is to provide her husband with sex. If she doesn't then she's not keeping her side of the deal. She is in effect breaking her marriage vows.

    But of course Twinkie and others are right in saying that it's also unhealthy for men to be motivated purely by sex. And of course marriage is about a lot of things besides sex.

    There's a tendency on UR for people to adopt unnecessarily extreme views, to immediately form two armed opposing camps hurling invective at each other.

    And I think it has to be accepted that people vary widely in the importance they put on sex. The fact that sex is incredibly important to some men has to be accepted. We also have to accept (even if we don't like it) that for some men sex is an end in itself. That is very very rarely the case for women. Lots of women love sex, but for them it's not an end in itself.

    A sane society has to accept certain realities about sex and about male and female sexuality.

    There’s a tendency on UR for people to adopt unnecessarily extreme views, to immediately form two armed opposing camps hurling invective at each other.

    If we didn’t have the extremists, we wouldn’t know where to locate the mushy middle.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    Excellent riposte.
  88. @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    There has always been a high degree of degeneracy among the rich because they have the spare time and money to indulge and will be subsidized by their family if they destroy themselves. Divorce was not uncommon among the rich when it was rare and disapproved of by the middle and lower classes.

    The middle class can subsidize to a lesser degree, but the poor end up on welfare. Someone on the bottom can't sink much lower.

    There has always been a high degree of degeneracy among the rich because they have the spare time and money to indulge and will be subsidized by their family if they destroy themselves.

    It’s just not realistic for the lower classes to try to live the way the upper class lives. But when the lower classes get to see the way the upper classes live (and get their noses rubbed in it) they naturally want to do so.

    A good deal of what passes for popular entertainment is basically wealthy lifestyle porn. Just as porn makes men think they should be able to have an unlimited supply of gorgeous sexually insatiable women wealthy lifestyle porn makes people think that the key to happiness is have an unlimited supply of expensive cars, Malibu beach houses and designer clothes. It makes women think they are all entitled to hot high-status men and it makes men think they’re all entitled to supermodel girlfriends because that’s what rich people have.

    Wealthy lifestyle porn may be the most dangerous of all forms of porn.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    Really good looking lower income chicks who aren't completely stupid can and do land rich guys. why wouldn't a smart girl try her luck? I used to work at a fru-fru place called the Pottery Barn when I went to UCLA. We had a girl that came all the way from Tennessee in a beat up Chevy Malibu to work there.

    She was cute but not great. One day she shows up in entirely new designer clothes (probably a month's pay, sporting a major do from Vidal Sassoon. I overheard her talking about the guy she met at lunch who had a Mercedes 450 SL. I sure hoped it worked out for her. It usually doesn't. These guys know how to use and discard these girls. They know there is an infinite supply.
  89. Hail says: • Website
    @Almost Missouri
    Maybe I'm missing something, but in order to reach those conclusions, don't we first have to know whether the category of "sexually active" people is increasing or decreasing?

    Speaking of sexual politics, and apropos of AE’s uncontroversial observation in this post:

    committed long-term relationships are on the decline

    I’d like to bring up the case-study of Heidi Beirich, long of the SPLC, a case of someone who is both never married and a political extremist.

    I did a full investigation into her origins and life a few months ago (“Heidi Beirich (SPLC)’s Origin Story: Family, early life, clues to her political origins and radicalization“).

    Almost Missouri, you left a good and thoughtful comment which I somehow missed until yesterday. The idea was that Heidi Beirich’s motivation may be heavily based on what we can call sexual-politics. I’d like to call attention to the comment you left at the time (with our host AE’s permission):

    https://hailtoyou.wordpress.com/2019/11/13/heidi-beirich-splcs-origin-story-family-early-life-clues-to-political-origins/#comment-26892

    It reads in part:

    the most significant sentence in your analysis may be

    “Unmarried, no children”.

    Combine that with Christian Identity Australia’s undeniable observation that Ms. Beirich is obviously hideous, and an important axis of investigation emerges.

    Ms. Beirich had all the ingredients: fair skin, blonde hair, blue eyes, Northern European ancestry, she claims to have been on a hard-body-producing swim team, yet somehow the ingredients never came together for her. Even in the more youthful pictures, she looks repugnant. And this would be aggravated by the fact that in her SoCal youth, she would have been surrounded by modern Adonises and Aphrodites.

    All her life choices make perfect sense as existential rage. [….]

    My reply/expansion on the point is here:

    https://hailtoyou.wordpress.com/2019/11/13/heidi-beirich-splcs-origin-story-family-early-life-clues-to-political-origins/#comment-35980

    It may help to think of this in terms of the crime cliche, “motive, means, and opportunity.” If the motive is as you describe it, what are the ‘means’? What is the ‘opportunity’? [….]

    While I do not believe sexual politics explains everything, it does explain a lot, and can pop up in, or influence, unlikely circumstances. In this sense, it is easier to understand people like Beirich as victims of the system, who would’ve been happier, ironically, if the needle had been bent back somewhat towards the bad-old-days during her formative years, back towards, a time (or some caricatured version thereof) which they like to tell themselves it is political prime imperative to rail against, but which they may have really been happier in.

    • Replies: @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    Lefties will project their personal problems, misfortunes and failings on society.
  90. @Jay Fink
    Yes most abusive men are popular with the ladies. They rarely become an incel or go through dry spells of no female companionship. Another group of men that women favor are criminals. I have long predicted that we would start emptying out our prisons. We are starting to do it now. They are using the virus as an excuse but the real reason for the trend (and it will continue after the virus situation is over) is that women want sexual access to criminals, they are the dominant "real men" that women say they long for.

    If you are middle class or above a lot of what I say sounds crazy or tin foil. You don't know women with these tastes in your social circle and can't imagine they exist. Yet in lower and lower middle socioeconomic groups these primitive preferences are common. I once read a British study that found every single lower class woman they surveyed had a history of being beaten by a partner. They actually thought non-abusive men were weird.

    I’ve learned about the phenomenon of romantic correspondence between inmates and women outside (they are called zhdulyas “the waiting ones” in Russian). The inmate always tells her he’s innocent or committed a lesser crime than he really did. They don’t flaunt how violent they are. “Their” letters (actually written by the most literate guy in the cell who ghostwrites for all the others in exchange for valuable goods) are gentle and sentimental. While the duped woman brings the criminal gifts or even marries him in jail to be allowed spousal visits, he keeps convincing he will settle down with her and live an honest life. Of course it never ends like this, when he’s released he’s either moved on to another zhdulya, or briefly stays with her to take and drink away her money. What sells this “romance” to a woman is hope that after seeing drunks and wife-beaters around her all her life, a miracle of finding a decent, wrongly accused (or mistaken but on track to redemption) man has finally happened to her.

    Basically, the “red pill” got it all wrong. They’re also ignoring the common knowledge about the follow-up to a violent act by abuser (he showers his victim with apologies and gifts, swears it will never repeat, she forgives him, they have a “honeymoon phase” and the cycle continues). Again, it’s the honeymoon phase that sells the relationship – and each new abusive partner shows kindness at first, until the victim is attached to him and he can reveal his true nature.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    Exactly right. Man or woman, if your experiences with the other sex have been unremittingly negative and you are desperate and wounded, you are a lot more likely to fall head over heels for somebody who promises a basic level of affection and decency... so much so that some people, the world being what it is, take advantage of that.

    And even supposing that women who genuinely do crave abuse exist: why would any man with half a brain would want to be with such a woman at all? You do not have to be Lev Landau to understand that going to bed with a crazy person leads to crazy endings.

    Speaking broadly, there are worse things than a celibate spell. This I learned the hard way when I was young... it is extremely difficult to accept that when your testosterone is at its peak in an age of 24/7 immature obsession about relationships and sex in American culture, do not get me wrong. But had I did, it would have not just led to better general outcomes, but a better outcome in the particular: with my romantic life.

    , @Intelligent Dasein

    Basically, the “red pill” got it all wrong.
     
    Very well said. I know Revilo P. Oliver made exactly this same point once long ago. I would link to it by I am unable to find it now.
  91. @dfordoom

    The Bible has an answer to this, do not sexually deprive your spouse.
     
    Yes I agree with that. I don't know if it's in the Bible or not (having only ever read bits and pieces) but I agree with the sentiment. I've known married men who've said that sex is now nothing but a dim memory for them.

    Even if women don’t want it they should have it freely because it’s good for their marriage. Instead they go to dildos, boxed wine and Netflix to keep them happy personally while the marriage is ruined. It’s about compromise and married women no longer compromise about sex in order to keep their husbands happy.
     
    I kinda have to agree with that as well. If a woman is not going to have sex with her husband she has no business thinking she's entitled to all the advantages of being married.

    As I've said elsewhere I don't buy the argument that everything is the fault of women and I don't agree with the woman-hatred of the manosphere. But women do have to accept that having sex is an essential part of marriage. I'm not saying it's the be-all and end-all of marriage, I'm not even saying it's the most important element, but it is one of the essential ingredients. And depriving a husband of sex is simply wrong. Men should accept that marriage is about a lot more than sex but sex is something a married man should feel entitled to expect.

    Just blaming women won't help. Women have been taught that they have the right to use sex as a weapon and that's disastrous.

    I now this will appal a lot of people here but if a married woman genuinely can't stand the idea of having sex any longer maybe she should allow her husband to get sex elsewhere. Or even encourage him to do so. In the past this was a solution that some married couples did adopt - the wife would tolerate her husband's having affairs or visiting whores. Maybe not an ideal solution, but possibly better than expecting him to live without sex and then complaining when the marriage falls apart.

    It’s so bizarre – some women are, uh, affectionate before they wed but suffer from perpetual headaches afterwards, especially after the kids come along.

    Dr. Laura Schlessinger has warned her female listeners repeatedly that if they don’t make him happy in that manner, he’ll find someone who will. Ugly situation, but I understand if a man does.

    In times past, a woman might tolerate her husband visiting prostitutes or even keeping a mistress because he wasn’t going to leave her for a floozy and she didn’t want to go through life perpetually pregnant.

    Agree with everything you wrote.

    I checked your website and bookmarked it. Will be visiting regularly.

    • Replies: @anon
    It’s so bizarre – some women are, uh, affectionate before they wed but suffer from perpetual headaches afterwards, especially after the kids come along.

    It's merely evo-psych at work. Courtship sex is required to lock down the provider, and more sex is required to produce children. It's known in the much-maligned manosphere that once a woman has born the number of children she desires, sexual activity drops like a rock. Because her hindbrain has gotten what it wants - a degree of security and reproductive success - so there's much less need to cooperate with her mate. To a man this looks a whole lot like outright betrayal and violation of vows, but that doesn't matter. She's got what her biology wants, and that's what matters.

    Meanwhile his biology wants sexual activity on the regular. So when she decides to use sex as a doggy treat or worse still a weapon, as I mentioned above this looks a whole lot like outright betrayal and vow breaking. Some women on the web, including here, accuse men of being "bitter" as if there's no reason for it, yet can't understand why men take oath-breaking so seriously.

    It's one of those biological differences that we are all brainwashed to believe do not exist, the whole "women are just like men except for having babies" lie.

    It takes effort to overcome our biological pressures, it's not an easy thing to do. It is work to get along with someone else whose flaws are more visible every day - and few of us look the mirror and see our own flaws. Some people find it more difficult than others, but it's there nevertheless. Many give up - we see middle aged couples that are both fat and contentious, how did they get that way? By giving up.

    It is also somewhat well known that women get restless once the youngest is no longer a nearly helpless toddler; around the age of 3 or 4, often. This accounts for divorces by women who "love, but no longer are in love" with young children, given the considerable material and emotional You Go, Girl! support offered to divorcees. I haven't looked at the data, but there used to be a notable increase of "risk of divorce" when a married woman with children was in the age 35 to age 45 range. Young enough to snag a new man-friend while the kids are still pulling in child support. It doesn't happen as often as the black-pilled Whiskey-clones claim, but it does happen. The story of Beta Bob driving by the house he's still paying for, and seeing some other man using his mower on his lawn...these are not all fabrications.

    This is over long.
    tl;dr
    Women are not men, the current equalism is damaging to both sexes. But since women benefit in the material sense from this, it will continue.
    , @Rosie

    Dr. Laura Schlessinger has warned her female listeners repeatedly that if they don’t make him happy in that manner, he’ll find someone who will. Ugly situation, but I understand if a man does.
     
    This is a two-way street. Wives are obligated to give it up, and husbands are obligated to roll with it if she just wants to have a quickie and get on with her day.

    Some men feel like they're just using their wives if they're not as into it as they once were, or at least not as often. Get over that. We really don't mind. What we don't like is being expected to turn from Mommy to sex kitten on a dime.
    , @dfordoom

    In times past, a woman might tolerate her husband visiting prostitutes or even keeping a mistress because he wasn’t going to leave her for a floozy
     
    That's a key point. It was understood that marriage was a commitment. A man might have mistresses or visit whores but his marriage still came first and both husband and wife understood that. And a married woman might take a lover but it was just for the excitement and the fun sexy times - her commitment to the marriage was not affected by it.

    It's interesting that people in the past believed in a much stricter code of sexual morality but in practice they were surprisingly flexible, realistic and pragmatic. Today we believe in a very very loose code of sexual morality but in practice we're unrealistic and inflexible.

    and she didn’t want to go through life perpetually pregnant.
     
    Yes. Good point.

    That may well be one of the reasons that birth rates started to plummet among the upper and upper middle classes in the 19th century. Married couples may have stopped having sex with each other after a couple of kids but the husbands could still have as much sex as they wanted or needed outside the marriage. And the wives were relieved because that way they could have two kids instead of twelve but still enjoy most of the benefits of being married. It was a compromise solution but it seemed to work (funny how compromise solutions usually do work whereas extreme inflexible solutions don't).
  92. @Hail
    Speaking of sexual politics, and apropos of AE's uncontroversial observation in this post:

    committed long-term relationships are on the decline
     
    I'd like to bring up the case-study of Heidi Beirich, long of the SPLC, a case of someone who is both never married and a political extremist.

    I did a full investigation into her origins and life a few months ago ("Heidi Beirich (SPLC)’s Origin Story: Family, early life, clues to her political origins and radicalization").

    Almost Missouri, you left a good and thoughtful comment which I somehow missed until yesterday. The idea was that Heidi Beirich's motivation may be heavily based on what we can call sexual-politics. I'd like to call attention to the comment you left at the time (with our host AE's permission):

    https://hailtoyou.wordpress.com/2019/11/13/heidi-beirich-splcs-origin-story-family-early-life-clues-to-political-origins/#comment-26892

    It reads in part:

    the most significant sentence in your analysis may be

    “Unmarried, no children”.

    Combine that with Christian Identity Australia’s undeniable observation that Ms. Beirich is obviously hideous, and an important axis of investigation emerges.

    Ms. Beirich had all the ingredients: fair skin, blonde hair, blue eyes, Northern European ancestry, she claims to have been on a hard-body-producing swim team, yet somehow the ingredients never came together for her. Even in the more youthful pictures, she looks repugnant. And this would be aggravated by the fact that in her SoCal youth, she would have been surrounded by modern Adonises and Aphrodites.

    All her life choices make perfect sense as existential rage. [....]
     
    My reply/expansion on the point is here:

    https://hailtoyou.wordpress.com/2019/11/13/heidi-beirich-splcs-origin-story-family-early-life-clues-to-political-origins/#comment-35980

    It may help to think of this in terms of the crime cliche, “motive, means, and opportunity.” If the motive is as you describe it, what are the ‘means’? What is the ‘opportunity’? [....]
     
    While I do not believe sexual politics explains everything, it does explain a lot, and can pop up in, or influence, unlikely circumstances. In this sense, it is easier to understand people like Beirich as victims of the system, who would've been happier, ironically, if the needle had been bent back somewhat towards the bad-old-days during her formative years, back towards, a time (or some caricatured version thereof) which they like to tell themselves it is political prime imperative to rail against, but which they may have really been happier in.

    Lefties will project their personal problems, misfortunes and failings on society.

  93. @Twinkie

    When your son is an incel and your daughter is sleeping with Chads on rotation, come back and read this comment.
     
    Don’t project your circumstances to others who live very differently. My family and I belong to a tightly-knit traditional Catholic community whose members homeschool together. The children of our community, by and large, attend universities such as Thomas Aquinas College where the dorms are sex-segregated (members of the opposite sex are not allowed), are inculcated in virtue, including chastity, and marry relatively early (early 20’s) and have lots of children. They don’t have much of an opportunity to engage in fornication and debauchery.

    I might also add that I have sons and daughters. I doubt you are even married or have a girlfriend let alone have children.

    You write that “Don’t project your circumstances to others who live very differently. My family and I belong to a tightly-knit traditional Catholic community whose members homeschool together. The children of our community, by and large, attend universities such as Thomas Aquinas College where the dorms are sex-segregated (members of the opposite sex are not allowed), are inculcated in virtue, including chastity, and marry relatively early (early 20’s) and have lots of children. They don’t have much of an opportunity to engage in fornication and debauchery.”

    While you state that the children in your community are taught community values, are there not anyone who chose not to partake in your community values? Have you met any bumps in the road personally? Only answer if you feel comfortable.

    Hypothetically how would react to any of your children abandoning your ‘way of life’?

    How large is your catholic community? Does the denomination have a special name? Is it a movement?

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    While you state that the children in your community are taught community values, are there not anyone who chose not to partake in your community values? Have you met any bumps in the road personally? Only answer if you feel comfortable.
     
    There have been a handful of children who - as they grew up to be adults - strayed from the faith, but almost all returned to the fold.

    I have not had any issues, but my kids are still young. My oldest is a teenager.

    Hypothetically how would react to any of your children abandoning your ‘way of life’?
     
    Once they reach adulthood, their conscience is between them and God. My love for my children is not conditional upon them imitating me or following my guidance. Lord knows my way is not the only way.

    How large is your catholic community? Does the denomination have a special name? Is it a movement?
     
    We are simply a group of obedient, orthodox Catholics in the area we live. There are several hundred families to our group, and we are in touch with others like us throughout the country.

    Catholics do not have disparate “denominations” as Protestants do.
  94. @jbwilson24
    "While committed long-term relationships are the surest way to have frequent sex"

    Until you have kids, and then it craters.

    Is this survey for heterosexuals only? Gay males are quite different in their behaviour.

    Well there is that old Mel Brooks joke:

    What the best way to get a Jewish girl to stop screwing? Marry her.

  95. ““Conservatism” is indeed a bad joke. It needs to die.”

    Absolute nonsense. An this,

    “A society organised entirely around the needs of men (the ideal of the manosphere) would be disastrous, and a society organised entirely around the needs of women (the ideal of feminists) would be just as disastrous.”

    has nothing to do with being a conservative, as well as most of your comments, save those about balance

    Living a conservative life in general will yield positive fruit.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Living a conservative life in general will yield positive fruit.
     
    You're confusing social conservatism and mainstream conservatism (which isn't socially conservative at all).

    Social conservatism is like everything else. It needs a balance. It's a good thing in moderation. To go back to extreme social conservatism (as some people around these parts would like to) would yield some very negative fruit. Anything pushed to an extreme tends to yield negative results.
  96. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Most married men seem sexually frustrated.

    If I'm only getting laid once a month, might as well be single and free instead of dealing with a Bitch and still barely getting it.

    The Bible has an answer to this, do not sexually deprive your spouse.

    Even if women don't want it they should have it freely because it's good for their marriage. Instead they go to dildos, boxed wine and Netflix to keep them happy personally while the marriage is ruined. It's about compromise and married women no longer compromise about sex in order to keep their husbands happy.

    I'm too young to be married anyways right now. Almost all my friends would be classified as incel, apparently I'm the only one with the chutzpah to be interested in women. The world is in a sad state.

    Having kids and spending the necessary time and effort making them responsible and happy adults requires a big sacrifice in terms of the time and effort needed to keep yourself sexually desirable.

    Yeah, the man may be just as out of shape and unappealing as the wife but the woman can be coaxed into it more easily than the visually oriented man.

  97. @dfordoom

    There has always been a high degree of degeneracy among the rich because they have the spare time and money to indulge and will be subsidized by their family if they destroy themselves.
     
    It's just not realistic for the lower classes to try to live the way the upper class lives. But when the lower classes get to see the way the upper classes live (and get their noses rubbed in it) they naturally want to do so.

    A good deal of what passes for popular entertainment is basically wealthy lifestyle porn. Just as porn makes men think they should be able to have an unlimited supply of gorgeous sexually insatiable women wealthy lifestyle porn makes people think that the key to happiness is have an unlimited supply of expensive cars, Malibu beach houses and designer clothes. It makes women think they are all entitled to hot high-status men and it makes men think they're all entitled to supermodel girlfriends because that's what rich people have.

    Wealthy lifestyle porn may be the most dangerous of all forms of porn.

    Really good looking lower income chicks who aren’t completely stupid can and do land rich guys. why wouldn’t a smart girl try her luck? I used to work at a fru-fru place called the Pottery Barn when I went to UCLA. We had a girl that came all the way from Tennessee in a beat up Chevy Malibu to work there.

    She was cute but not great. One day she shows up in entirely new designer clothes (probably a month’s pay, sporting a major do from Vidal Sassoon. I overheard her talking about the guy she met at lunch who had a Mercedes 450 SL. I sure hoped it worked out for her. It usually doesn’t. These guys know how to use and discard these girls. They know there is an infinite supply.

  98. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    Yeah, I'm bitter as hell about everything. Way too bitter as a young guy.

    That said I'm correct on this point.

    You went from "LOL, you're so bitter, theres so much more to life than pussy" to "just improve yourself bro, it's easy once you self improve".

    It seems you agree with the premise. One self improves in order to get more pussy. Not for the sake of self improvement.

    I'm also not an incel, I'm just pointing out the truth about things.

    Eventually, hopefully, you’ll have a wife and kids…then a lot of what the veterans are saying around here will make sense. There are things you just have to experience; like looking across the table at the aging woman with growing wrinkles while realizing that he has cooked the majority of what you’ve eaten for the last 20 years and knowing that she has been worrying about the future of your children through the decades as well.

    I really like Imam Shadeed’s (I know he’s black, but just pretend he’s not if that makes it easier) advice on it, maybe it’ll be of use to you one day:

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    There are things you just have to experience;
     
    Yes, the relationship between marriage and happiness is paradoxical. You kind of have to stop striving for happiness, and then you get it.

    It's also so much better than it looks from the outside in. Other people see the stress and all the difficulties involved in parenting, but the moments of sublime joy they do not see, or at least don't recognize.
  99. anon[381] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    It's so bizarre - some women are, uh, affectionate before they wed but suffer from perpetual headaches afterwards, especially after the kids come along.

    Dr. Laura Schlessinger has warned her female listeners repeatedly that if they don't make him happy in that manner, he'll find someone who will. Ugly situation, but I understand if a man does.

    In times past, a woman might tolerate her husband visiting prostitutes or even keeping a mistress because he wasn't going to leave her for a floozy and she didn't want to go through life perpetually pregnant.

    Agree with everything you wrote.

    I checked your website and bookmarked it. Will be visiting regularly.

    It’s so bizarre – some women are, uh, affectionate before they wed but suffer from perpetual headaches afterwards, especially after the kids come along.

    It’s merely evo-psych at work. Courtship sex is required to lock down the provider, and more sex is required to produce children. It’s known in the much-maligned manosphere that once a woman has born the number of children she desires, sexual activity drops like a rock. Because her hindbrain has gotten what it wants – a degree of security and reproductive success – so there’s much less need to cooperate with her mate. To a man this looks a whole lot like outright betrayal and violation of vows, but that doesn’t matter. She’s got what her biology wants, and that’s what matters.

    Meanwhile his biology wants sexual activity on the regular. So when she decides to use sex as a doggy treat or worse still a weapon, as I mentioned above this looks a whole lot like outright betrayal and vow breaking. Some women on the web, including here, accuse men of being “bitter” as if there’s no reason for it, yet can’t understand why men take oath-breaking so seriously.

    It’s one of those biological differences that we are all brainwashed to believe do not exist, the whole “women are just like men except for having babies” lie.

    It takes effort to overcome our biological pressures, it’s not an easy thing to do. It is work to get along with someone else whose flaws are more visible every day – and few of us look the mirror and see our own flaws. Some people find it more difficult than others, but it’s there nevertheless. Many give up – we see middle aged couples that are both fat and contentious, how did they get that way? By giving up.

    It is also somewhat well known that women get restless once the youngest is no longer a nearly helpless toddler; around the age of 3 or 4, often. This accounts for divorces by women who “love, but no longer are in love” with young children, given the considerable material and emotional You Go, Girl! support offered to divorcees. I haven’t looked at the data, but there used to be a notable increase of “risk of divorce” when a married woman with children was in the age 35 to age 45 range. Young enough to snag a new man-friend while the kids are still pulling in child support. It doesn’t happen as often as the black-pilled Whiskey-clones claim, but it does happen. The story of Beta Bob driving by the house he’s still paying for, and seeing some other man using his mower on his lawn…these are not all fabrications.

    This is over long.
    tl;dr
    Women are not men, the current equalism is damaging to both sexes. But since women benefit in the material sense from this, it will continue.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    So when she decides to use sex as a doggy treat or worse still a weapon, as I mentioned above this looks a whole lot like outright betrayal and vow breaking.
     
    I would love to see an example of a woman using sex as a doggy treat, not necessarily a real one, a hypothetical one would do just fine. Because it sounds to me like men want women to feel obligated to cater to their needs without feeling any reciprocal obligation to their wives.

    I'm not saying that my perception is correct. Maybe it isn't. I'm sincerely asking for clarification.

    Do you think a husband is unconditionally entitled to sex in a marriage? If not, what sorts of conditions are reasonable?

    Bear in mind that withholding of sex is not necessarily a deliberate manipulation.

    If a woman always says she's too tired for sex, maybe she really is too tired for sex, and if you want any, you're going to have to help some.

    I always know when I'm gonna get hit up. Mr. Rosie always asks if there's anything he can do to help or something like that, and then I tell him, and he does it forthwith (knock me over with a feather!) t kind of gets on my nerves that he only does that when he wants something from me.

    On the other hand, at least he does that! He recognizes that if he wants me to make some time for him, I might need a little extra help that day. That's just being a decent husband, though I fear some would see that as him being some sort of trained puppy (with the doggy treats analogy and all).
  100. @dfordoom

    Make family formation economically more feasible for more of the working class and they’ll get married and have babies.
     
    I don't think affordable family formation is a magic cure-all but it would certainly help. A UBI might help a good deal in this respect.

    It's not just a matter of money. It's very much a matter of security. If you want people to get married and have kids you need to offer them a degree of financial security. A modest amount of money you can rely upon long-term is way more likely to be effective than a large amount short-term. That's why offering people one-off "baby bonuses" is entirely useless. A UBI might do the trick.

    Of course providing housing (not rental assistance but actual permanent housing) and healthcare is pretty much essential. Having kids when you're dependent on the private rental market is madness.

    Having kids when you’re dependent on the private rental market is madness.

    Agreed. How do you plan if you don’t know how much you’re going to be paying for rent next year? I couldn’t live like that, personally.

    It’s not just a matter of money. It’s very much a matter of security.

    Yep. How many more women would choose to ditch the job and have a second, third, or fourth child if they knew that, come what may, they’ll always have a little bit of money coming in, guaranteed.

  101. @Talha
    Eventually, hopefully, you’ll have a wife and kids...then a lot of what the veterans are saying around here will make sense. There are things you just have to experience; like looking across the table at the aging woman with growing wrinkles while realizing that he has cooked the majority of what you’ve eaten for the last 20 years and knowing that she has been worrying about the future of your children through the decades as well.

    I really like Imam Shadeed’s (I know he’s black, but just pretend he’s not if that makes it easier) advice on it, maybe it’ll be of use to you one day:
    https://www.twitter.com/Shadeed_M76/status/1232482538863628289

    Peace.

    There are things you just have to experience;

    Yes, the relationship between marriage and happiness is paradoxical. You kind of have to stop striving for happiness, and then you get it.

    It’s also so much better than it looks from the outside in. Other people see the stress and all the difficulties involved in parenting, but the moments of sublime joy they do not see, or at least don’t recognize.

    • Replies: @Talha

    You kind of have to stop striving for happiness, and then you get it.

     

    Happiness is overrated; contentment is far better, much more attainable and consistent.

    but the moments of sublime joy they do not see, or at least don’t recognize.
     
    Yup, and the free comedy.

    Peace.
  102. @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    It's so bizarre - some women are, uh, affectionate before they wed but suffer from perpetual headaches afterwards, especially after the kids come along.

    Dr. Laura Schlessinger has warned her female listeners repeatedly that if they don't make him happy in that manner, he'll find someone who will. Ugly situation, but I understand if a man does.

    In times past, a woman might tolerate her husband visiting prostitutes or even keeping a mistress because he wasn't going to leave her for a floozy and she didn't want to go through life perpetually pregnant.

    Agree with everything you wrote.

    I checked your website and bookmarked it. Will be visiting regularly.

    Dr. Laura Schlessinger has warned her female listeners repeatedly that if they don’t make him happy in that manner, he’ll find someone who will. Ugly situation, but I understand if a man does.

    This is a two-way street. Wives are obligated to give it up, and husbands are obligated to roll with it if she just wants to have a quickie and get on with her day.

    Some men feel like they’re just using their wives if they’re not as into it as they once were, or at least not as often. Get over that. We really don’t mind. What we don’t like is being expected to turn from Mommy to sex kitten on a dime.

  103. @anon
    It’s so bizarre – some women are, uh, affectionate before they wed but suffer from perpetual headaches afterwards, especially after the kids come along.

    It's merely evo-psych at work. Courtship sex is required to lock down the provider, and more sex is required to produce children. It's known in the much-maligned manosphere that once a woman has born the number of children she desires, sexual activity drops like a rock. Because her hindbrain has gotten what it wants - a degree of security and reproductive success - so there's much less need to cooperate with her mate. To a man this looks a whole lot like outright betrayal and violation of vows, but that doesn't matter. She's got what her biology wants, and that's what matters.

    Meanwhile his biology wants sexual activity on the regular. So when she decides to use sex as a doggy treat or worse still a weapon, as I mentioned above this looks a whole lot like outright betrayal and vow breaking. Some women on the web, including here, accuse men of being "bitter" as if there's no reason for it, yet can't understand why men take oath-breaking so seriously.

    It's one of those biological differences that we are all brainwashed to believe do not exist, the whole "women are just like men except for having babies" lie.

    It takes effort to overcome our biological pressures, it's not an easy thing to do. It is work to get along with someone else whose flaws are more visible every day - and few of us look the mirror and see our own flaws. Some people find it more difficult than others, but it's there nevertheless. Many give up - we see middle aged couples that are both fat and contentious, how did they get that way? By giving up.

    It is also somewhat well known that women get restless once the youngest is no longer a nearly helpless toddler; around the age of 3 or 4, often. This accounts for divorces by women who "love, but no longer are in love" with young children, given the considerable material and emotional You Go, Girl! support offered to divorcees. I haven't looked at the data, but there used to be a notable increase of "risk of divorce" when a married woman with children was in the age 35 to age 45 range. Young enough to snag a new man-friend while the kids are still pulling in child support. It doesn't happen as often as the black-pilled Whiskey-clones claim, but it does happen. The story of Beta Bob driving by the house he's still paying for, and seeing some other man using his mower on his lawn...these are not all fabrications.

    This is over long.
    tl;dr
    Women are not men, the current equalism is damaging to both sexes. But since women benefit in the material sense from this, it will continue.

    So when she decides to use sex as a doggy treat or worse still a weapon, as I mentioned above this looks a whole lot like outright betrayal and vow breaking.

    I would love to see an example of a woman using sex as a doggy treat, not necessarily a real one, a hypothetical one would do just fine. Because it sounds to me like men want women to feel obligated to cater to their needs without feeling any reciprocal obligation to their wives.

    I’m not saying that my perception is correct. Maybe it isn’t. I’m sincerely asking for clarification.

    Do you think a husband is unconditionally entitled to sex in a marriage? If not, what sorts of conditions are reasonable?

    Bear in mind that withholding of sex is not necessarily a deliberate manipulation.

    If a woman always says she’s too tired for sex, maybe she really is too tired for sex, and if you want any, you’re going to have to help some.

    I always know when I’m gonna get hit up. Mr. Rosie always asks if there’s anything he can do to help or something like that, and then I tell him, and he does it forthwith (knock me over with a feather!) t kind of gets on my nerves that he only does that when he wants something from me.

    On the other hand, at least he does that! He recognizes that if he wants me to make some time for him, I might need a little extra help that day. That’s just being a decent husband, though I fear some would see that as him being some sort of trained puppy (with the doggy treats analogy and all).

    • Replies: @iffen
    I fear some would see that as him being some sort of trained puppy (with the doggy treats analogy and all).

    Don't worry about it, he won't care one bit as long as you do it doggy style every once in awhile.
    , @anon
    I would love to see an example of a woman using sex as a doggy treat, not necessarily a real one, a hypothetical one would do just fine.

    The endless "job list" or "honey do" list for a start; the list of chores and improvements and family duties that when completed will earn 2 minutes and 30 seconds of missionary intercourse with a starfish who wants to know "Done yet? Done yet?" Of course, the list never ends so there's always an excuse for a woman to refuse to do her marital duty. There are entire sites from reddit's "deadbedrooms" to a portion of "themarriagebed" to other sites where this is discussed. It might be a problem, at least if one regards men as humans rather than robots.

    But heaven forbid a man should fail to obey his loving wife in any way. That's abuse!

    Because it sounds to me like men want women to feel obligated to cater to their needs without feeling any reciprocal obligation to their wives.

    Of course it sounds that way, you are a misandric female chauvinist who regards men as objects rather than human beings.

    I’m not saying that my perception is correct. Maybe it isn’t. I’m sincerely asking for clarification.

    Clarified?

    Do you think a husband is unconditionally entitled to sex in a marriage?

    Strawman or poisoning the well? Hmm, I'll have to think. Either way it's a "have you stopped beating your dog" kind of no-win question.

    If not, what sorts of conditions are reasonable?

    Two adults can work that out between each other, now can't they? Of course, if he's been brainwashed to always appease "Mommy" then there will be problems, for sure. If she's been raised to be a Strong, Independent Woman who submits to no one and nothing, there will be problems.

    Bear in mind that withholding of sex is not necessarily a deliberate manipulation.

    Of course not. Breaking a promise isn't necessarily breaking a promise, either, at least not when a woman does it.

    If a woman always says she’s too tired for sex, maybe she really is too tired for sex, and if you want any, you’re going to have to help some.

    How many months would say is reasonable for a woman to be 'too tired" every night, no matter how her husband caters to her? Is 6 months unreasonable? How about 12? 36? 48? At what point should a man get the message that he's effectively been divorced?

    I always know when I’m gonna get hit up. Mr. Rosie always asks if there’s anything he can do to help or something like that, and then I tell him, and he does it forthwith (knock me over with a feather!) t kind of gets on my nerves that he only does that when he wants something from me.

    That's sad. It's weak, "mommy, may I please?" style provider game. Not good for either of you.

    On the other hand, at least he does that! He recognizes that if he wants me to make some time for him, I might need a little extra help that day. That’s just being a decent husband, though I fear some would see that as him being some sort of trained puppy (with the doggy treats analogy and all).

    IMO you two have some issues that need to be worked out. Just for a start Mr. Rosie should retrieve his testicles from your purse.
  104. @Rosie

    There are things you just have to experience;
     
    Yes, the relationship between marriage and happiness is paradoxical. You kind of have to stop striving for happiness, and then you get it.

    It's also so much better than it looks from the outside in. Other people see the stress and all the difficulties involved in parenting, but the moments of sublime joy they do not see, or at least don't recognize.

    You kind of have to stop striving for happiness, and then you get it.

    Happiness is overrated; contentment is far better, much more attainable and consistent.

    but the moments of sublime joy they do not see, or at least don’t recognize.

    Yup, and the free comedy.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    If I were content, I would be bored.

    Onto the next challenge...
  105. @Dumbo
    Maybe today, but it wasn't like this before, and it won't be in the future.

    Casual sex is bad for women, and the sad thing is, they don't even realize it.

    For men, meh - it can be fun at first but it can also be bad, especially if the guy thinks it will last forever and doesn't settle down. Men "hit the wall" too. Later, but they do.

    For men, meh – it can be fun at first but it can also be bad, especially if the guy thinks it will last forever and doesn’t settle down. Men “hit the wall” too. Later, but they do.

    The way that I see it, people have two drives, a drive for pleasure and a drive for happiness and for average people these two drives can pretty easily come into conflict.

    The drive for pleasure is the same as the desire to seek out and eat sweet things (eating addiction) or to engage in porn use or chasing tail or using drugs or alcohol or gambling or gaming addiction.

    Being a pleasure addict can be a good way of life as long as you can afford it. If you are Hugh Hefner or a Rolling Stone, you can indulge these pleasure until the day you die. No problem. In that case you don’t need happiness.

    Happiness is a kind of state of pleasure or well-being that you get from having low anxiety, affectionate and supportive relations with other humans. You get small, non-addictive kicks, like seeing your kid or dog do something cute, or from taking your kids to the swimming pool or you feel the satisfaction of a job well done.

    Most people can’t afford, monetarily or socially, to chase pleasure because chasing pleasure destroys the human relations that lead to happiness and these are not-coincidentally related to all kinds of survival security. Chasing pleasure leads to addiction and addiction leads to compulsive, anti-social behavior – lying and being unreliable (not “happy” behaviors), stealing from your mom, cheating on your husband, never coming home when you say you will, being distracted and having no attention for your kids, poor work performance…and this ultimately leads to loneliness and misery.

    Of course, if you are rich enough (and many modern people and societies are), you can afford to be anti-social. A rich or powerful-enough person never has to be lonely or miserable. Most of us, and most societies, though, have to choose: pleasure or happiness?

  106. @Toronto Russian
    I've learned about the phenomenon of romantic correspondence between inmates and women outside (they are called zhdulyas "the waiting ones" in Russian). The inmate always tells her he's innocent or committed a lesser crime than he really did. They don't flaunt how violent they are. "Their" letters (actually written by the most literate guy in the cell who ghostwrites for all the others in exchange for valuable goods) are gentle and sentimental. While the duped woman brings the criminal gifts or even marries him in jail to be allowed spousal visits, he keeps convincing he will settle down with her and live an honest life. Of course it never ends like this, when he's released he's either moved on to another zhdulya, or briefly stays with her to take and drink away her money. What sells this "romance" to a woman is hope that after seeing drunks and wife-beaters around her all her life, a miracle of finding a decent, wrongly accused (or mistaken but on track to redemption) man has finally happened to her.

    Basically, the "red pill" got it all wrong. They're also ignoring the common knowledge about the follow-up to a violent act by abuser (he showers his victim with apologies and gifts, swears it will never repeat, she forgives him, they have a "honeymoon phase" and the cycle continues). Again, it's the honeymoon phase that sells the relationship - and each new abusive partner shows kindness at first, until the victim is attached to him and he can reveal his true nature.

    Exactly right. Man or woman, if your experiences with the other sex have been unremittingly negative and you are desperate and wounded, you are a lot more likely to fall head over heels for somebody who promises a basic level of affection and decency… so much so that some people, the world being what it is, take advantage of that.

    And even supposing that women who genuinely do crave abuse exist: why would any man with half a brain would want to be with such a woman at all? You do not have to be Lev Landau to understand that going to bed with a crazy person leads to crazy endings.

    Speaking broadly, there are worse things than a celibate spell. This I learned the hard way when I was young… it is extremely difficult to accept that when your testosterone is at its peak in an age of 24/7 immature obsession about relationships and sex in American culture, do not get me wrong. But had I did, it would have not just led to better general outcomes, but a better outcome in the particular: with my romantic life.

    • Replies: @iffen
    going to bed with a crazy person leads to crazy endings.

    Crazy (and mean) women have the best stuff.
  107. @Talha

    You kind of have to stop striving for happiness, and then you get it.

     

    Happiness is overrated; contentment is far better, much more attainable and consistent.

    but the moments of sublime joy they do not see, or at least don’t recognize.
     
    Yup, and the free comedy.

    Peace.

    If I were content, I would be bored.

    Onto the next challenge…

    • Replies: @Talha
    Contentment is different from complacency.

    Peace.
  108. @nebulafox
    If I were content, I would be bored.

    Onto the next challenge...

    Contentment is different from complacency.

    Peace.

  109. @iffen
    There’s a tendency on UR for people to adopt unnecessarily extreme views, to immediately form two armed opposing camps hurling invective at each other.

    If we didn't have the extremists, we wouldn't know where to locate the mushy middle.

    Excellent riposte.

  110. @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    The accumulated wisdom of thousands of years is ignored because it conflicts with modern-day obsessions with equality and entitlement or is just inconvenient. So many people just don't know how to act like decent human beings anymore.

    Thanks for standing up for women. The contempt and outright hatred for women on the manosphere grates, along with the promotion of male promiscuity. White Sharia indeed.

    Neither sex if entitled to wear a halo. Good women are victimized by bad men and good men are victimized by bad women. Men complain that women see them as a money objects and women complain that men see them as sex objects. Society is disintegrating into all against all.

    >Thanks for standing up for women. The contempt and outright hatred for women on the manosphere grates, along with the promotion of male promiscuity. White Sharia indeed.

    I think if you aren’t a psychopath or an idiot, you can sift out the useful stuff about self-improvement/how you were lied to by mainstream culture about women from the misogynistic BS that make women into half-demonic, half-subhuman creatures. I mean: it’s kind of sad if you are going to spend so much time and effort into attracting people you don’t even like. That’s so hollow.

    Moreover, I’m just stating what should be common sense truth. It’s a sad statement about Internet culture that there seem to be so many angry, bitter people out there who hate the opposite sex. It never seems to occur to them that their romantic problems are probably partly caused by the anger and bitterness, particularly the men: women are generally a lot more subtly attuned than we are, they can detect this kind of thing.

    There’s such a thing as going too far in the understandable push-back against the universalist pablum that we get treated to in Western culture, whether it is about race or sex or religion or whatever. We’re all human beings who basically want the same things out of life at the end of day: a good mate, financial security, health, friends. It’d do us well to not forget that and not replace one extreme with another.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    It’s a sad statement about Internet culture that there seem to be so many angry, bitter people out there who hate the opposite sex.
     
    Maybe the happy contented people don't waste their time on the internet. The internet attracts the crazy and the angry. Especially the political parts of the internet, and even more especially the far right sites.

    Outside of the internet, out in the real world, you'd be surprised how many men actually like women, and how many women actually like men. That's not to say that they're deliriously happy or they have unrealistic illusions about the opposite sex or that they're not sometimes disappointed and exasperated by them, but on the whole they kinda like the opposite sex.

    The political internet is not reality.
    , @anon
    We’re all human beings who basically want the same things out of life at the end of day: a good mate, financial security, health, friends.

    Nonsense. That's naive, feel-good, kumbayah self-delusion. Hope you don't learn how wrong that really is the hard way.
  111. @Toronto Russian
    I've learned about the phenomenon of romantic correspondence between inmates and women outside (they are called zhdulyas "the waiting ones" in Russian). The inmate always tells her he's innocent or committed a lesser crime than he really did. They don't flaunt how violent they are. "Their" letters (actually written by the most literate guy in the cell who ghostwrites for all the others in exchange for valuable goods) are gentle and sentimental. While the duped woman brings the criminal gifts or even marries him in jail to be allowed spousal visits, he keeps convincing he will settle down with her and live an honest life. Of course it never ends like this, when he's released he's either moved on to another zhdulya, or briefly stays with her to take and drink away her money. What sells this "romance" to a woman is hope that after seeing drunks and wife-beaters around her all her life, a miracle of finding a decent, wrongly accused (or mistaken but on track to redemption) man has finally happened to her.

    Basically, the "red pill" got it all wrong. They're also ignoring the common knowledge about the follow-up to a violent act by abuser (he showers his victim with apologies and gifts, swears it will never repeat, she forgives him, they have a "honeymoon phase" and the cycle continues). Again, it's the honeymoon phase that sells the relationship - and each new abusive partner shows kindness at first, until the victim is attached to him and he can reveal his true nature.

    Basically, the “red pill” got it all wrong.

    Very well said. I know Revilo P. Oliver made exactly this same point once long ago. I would link to it by I am unable to find it now.

  112. @Rosie

    But belief is not reality, and such attempts are foredoomed.
     
    This is a massive overstatement of the case. It's not ideal, certainly, but it is reality, like it or not.

    If you were to interview couples celebrating their tenth anniversary in 2020, what do you think would be the average length of time they dated before having sex? Less than a month? A week?

    Yes, now, I suppose so. But I’m old enough to remember when it was different. Oh what a time, what a time.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Yes, now, I suppose so. But I’m old enough to remember when it was different. Oh what a time, what a time.
     
    Yes, people waited longer then, but remember, out-of-wedlock pregnancy was very common. The difference was that the couple would marry.

    The first one can come any time. The rest take nine months.

    https://www.brookings.edu/research/an-analysis-of-out-of-wedlock-births-in-the-united-states/

  113. @SafeNow
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/09/e3/e9/09e3e9f7da741ca1d5ca1b24bea91037.jpg

    Yes, now, I suppose so. But I’m old enough to remember when it was different. Oh what a time, what a time.

    Yes, now, I suppose so. But I’m old enough to remember when it was different. Oh what a time, what a time.

    Yes, people waited longer then, but remember, out-of-wedlock pregnancy was very common. The difference was that the couple would marry.

    The first one can come any time. The rest take nine months.

    https://www.brookings.edu/research/an-analysis-of-out-of-wedlock-births-in-the-united-states/

  114. @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    It's so bizarre - some women are, uh, affectionate before they wed but suffer from perpetual headaches afterwards, especially after the kids come along.

    Dr. Laura Schlessinger has warned her female listeners repeatedly that if they don't make him happy in that manner, he'll find someone who will. Ugly situation, but I understand if a man does.

    In times past, a woman might tolerate her husband visiting prostitutes or even keeping a mistress because he wasn't going to leave her for a floozy and she didn't want to go through life perpetually pregnant.

    Agree with everything you wrote.

    I checked your website and bookmarked it. Will be visiting regularly.

    In times past, a woman might tolerate her husband visiting prostitutes or even keeping a mistress because he wasn’t going to leave her for a floozy

    That’s a key point. It was understood that marriage was a commitment. A man might have mistresses or visit whores but his marriage still came first and both husband and wife understood that. And a married woman might take a lover but it was just for the excitement and the fun sexy times – her commitment to the marriage was not affected by it.

    It’s interesting that people in the past believed in a much stricter code of sexual morality but in practice they were surprisingly flexible, realistic and pragmatic. Today we believe in a very very loose code of sexual morality but in practice we’re unrealistic and inflexible.

    and she didn’t want to go through life perpetually pregnant.

    Yes. Good point.

    That may well be one of the reasons that birth rates started to plummet among the upper and upper middle classes in the 19th century. Married couples may have stopped having sex with each other after a couple of kids but the husbands could still have as much sex as they wanted or needed outside the marriage. And the wives were relieved because that way they could have two kids instead of twelve but still enjoy most of the benefits of being married. It was a compromise solution but it seemed to work (funny how compromise solutions usually do work whereas extreme inflexible solutions don’t).

  115. @EliteCommInc.
    "“Conservatism” is indeed a bad joke. It needs to die."


    Absolute nonsense. An this,

    "A society organised entirely around the needs of men (the ideal of the manosphere) would be disastrous, and a society organised entirely around the needs of women (the ideal of feminists) would be just as disastrous."


    has nothing to do with being a conservative, as well as most of your comments, save those about balance


    Living a conservative life in general will yield positive fruit.

    Living a conservative life in general will yield positive fruit.

    You’re confusing social conservatism and mainstream conservatism (which isn’t socially conservative at all).

    Social conservatism is like everything else. It needs a balance. It’s a good thing in moderation. To go back to extreme social conservatism (as some people around these parts would like to) would yield some very negative fruit. Anything pushed to an extreme tends to yield negative results.

  116. @nebulafox
    >Thanks for standing up for women. The contempt and outright hatred for women on the manosphere grates, along with the promotion of male promiscuity. White Sharia indeed.

    I think if you aren't a psychopath or an idiot, you can sift out the useful stuff about self-improvement/how you were lied to by mainstream culture about women from the misogynistic BS that make women into half-demonic, half-subhuman creatures. I mean: it's kind of sad if you are going to spend so much time and effort into attracting people you don't even like. That's so hollow.

    Moreover, I'm just stating what should be common sense truth. It's a sad statement about Internet culture that there seem to be so many angry, bitter people out there who hate the opposite sex. It never seems to occur to them that their romantic problems are probably partly caused by the anger and bitterness, particularly the men: women are generally a lot more subtly attuned than we are, they can detect this kind of thing.

    There's such a thing as going too far in the understandable push-back against the universalist pablum that we get treated to in Western culture, whether it is about race or sex or religion or whatever. We're all human beings who basically want the same things out of life at the end of day: a good mate, financial security, health, friends. It'd do us well to not forget that and not replace one extreme with another.

    It’s a sad statement about Internet culture that there seem to be so many angry, bitter people out there who hate the opposite sex.

    Maybe the happy contented people don’t waste their time on the internet. The internet attracts the crazy and the angry. Especially the political parts of the internet, and even more especially the far right sites.

    Outside of the internet, out in the real world, you’d be surprised how many men actually like women, and how many women actually like men. That’s not to say that they’re deliriously happy or they have unrealistic illusions about the opposite sex or that they’re not sometimes disappointed and exasperated by them, but on the whole they kinda like the opposite sex.

    The political internet is not reality.

    • Agree: nebulafox
    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    That was one of your best comments ever. Bookmark it.
  117. @Rosie

    So when she decides to use sex as a doggy treat or worse still a weapon, as I mentioned above this looks a whole lot like outright betrayal and vow breaking.
     
    I would love to see an example of a woman using sex as a doggy treat, not necessarily a real one, a hypothetical one would do just fine. Because it sounds to me like men want women to feel obligated to cater to their needs without feeling any reciprocal obligation to their wives.

    I'm not saying that my perception is correct. Maybe it isn't. I'm sincerely asking for clarification.

    Do you think a husband is unconditionally entitled to sex in a marriage? If not, what sorts of conditions are reasonable?

    Bear in mind that withholding of sex is not necessarily a deliberate manipulation.

    If a woman always says she's too tired for sex, maybe she really is too tired for sex, and if you want any, you're going to have to help some.

    I always know when I'm gonna get hit up. Mr. Rosie always asks if there's anything he can do to help or something like that, and then I tell him, and he does it forthwith (knock me over with a feather!) t kind of gets on my nerves that he only does that when he wants something from me.

    On the other hand, at least he does that! He recognizes that if he wants me to make some time for him, I might need a little extra help that day. That's just being a decent husband, though I fear some would see that as him being some sort of trained puppy (with the doggy treats analogy and all).

    I fear some would see that as him being some sort of trained puppy (with the doggy treats analogy and all).

    Don’t worry about it, he won’t care one bit as long as you do it doggy style every once in awhile.

  118. @nebulafox
    Exactly right. Man or woman, if your experiences with the other sex have been unremittingly negative and you are desperate and wounded, you are a lot more likely to fall head over heels for somebody who promises a basic level of affection and decency... so much so that some people, the world being what it is, take advantage of that.

    And even supposing that women who genuinely do crave abuse exist: why would any man with half a brain would want to be with such a woman at all? You do not have to be Lev Landau to understand that going to bed with a crazy person leads to crazy endings.

    Speaking broadly, there are worse things than a celibate spell. This I learned the hard way when I was young... it is extremely difficult to accept that when your testosterone is at its peak in an age of 24/7 immature obsession about relationships and sex in American culture, do not get me wrong. But had I did, it would have not just led to better general outcomes, but a better outcome in the particular: with my romantic life.

    going to bed with a crazy person leads to crazy endings.

    Crazy (and mean) women have the best stuff.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    >Crazy (and mean) women have the best stuff.

    Some shows aren't worth the price of admission.
  119. @SFG
    That was a joke, but it's actually a very good observation about what happens when you only satisfy immediate drives--the same is true with food and sex.

    It was a joke?

  120. @iffen
    going to bed with a crazy person leads to crazy endings.

    Crazy (and mean) women have the best stuff.

    >Crazy (and mean) women have the best stuff.

    Some shows aren’t worth the price of admission.

  121. “You’re confusing social conservatism and mainstream conservatism (which isn’t socially conservative at all).”

    I have never heard of mainstream conservatism. I have heard of fiscal and soccial conservatism — which makes some sense, but at the end of the day are very strange distinctions. If wanted to note mainstream conservatism — it would have helped , maybe to make that istinction initially. I won’t wear any confusion on that aspect.

    But conservativism isn’t really a this or a that. It’s an approach to life and the issues in it.

    It’s prudence and caution not anything that might destabilize “good” order and function and growth of all community members. It respects the system in place, open to change to correct faults and errors, acknowledges a greater force at play — a creator, hesitates at changes that are disruptive and in all ways notes the value of equal play or fair dealings That’s the general perspective in my view and that approach is to money, social existence and the method of governance above all justice. Balance is a compromising term —-

    So in the mainstream those who seek to live as conservatives would acknowledge the above as templates or staples of living out that approach or that approach as guide to giving.

    Something as radical as violence would not be the first, second or even the third choice, unless there was dire emergency . . . The rescue of another from harm’s way, some immovable obstacle that requires change — i.e. slavery , in a community of equality . . . and why government is hl suspect and to account for services rendered.

  122. @dfordoom

    It’s a sad statement about Internet culture that there seem to be so many angry, bitter people out there who hate the opposite sex.
     
    Maybe the happy contented people don't waste their time on the internet. The internet attracts the crazy and the angry. Especially the political parts of the internet, and even more especially the far right sites.

    Outside of the internet, out in the real world, you'd be surprised how many men actually like women, and how many women actually like men. That's not to say that they're deliriously happy or they have unrealistic illusions about the opposite sex or that they're not sometimes disappointed and exasperated by them, but on the whole they kinda like the opposite sex.

    The political internet is not reality.

    That was one of your best comments ever. Bookmark it.

  123. @dfordoom

    The Bible has an answer to this, do not sexually deprive your spouse.
     
    Yes I agree with that. I don't know if it's in the Bible or not (having only ever read bits and pieces) but I agree with the sentiment. I've known married men who've said that sex is now nothing but a dim memory for them.

    Even if women don’t want it they should have it freely because it’s good for their marriage. Instead they go to dildos, boxed wine and Netflix to keep them happy personally while the marriage is ruined. It’s about compromise and married women no longer compromise about sex in order to keep their husbands happy.
     
    I kinda have to agree with that as well. If a woman is not going to have sex with her husband she has no business thinking she's entitled to all the advantages of being married.

    As I've said elsewhere I don't buy the argument that everything is the fault of women and I don't agree with the woman-hatred of the manosphere. But women do have to accept that having sex is an essential part of marriage. I'm not saying it's the be-all and end-all of marriage, I'm not even saying it's the most important element, but it is one of the essential ingredients. And depriving a husband of sex is simply wrong. Men should accept that marriage is about a lot more than sex but sex is something a married man should feel entitled to expect.

    Just blaming women won't help. Women have been taught that they have the right to use sex as a weapon and that's disastrous.

    I now this will appal a lot of people here but if a married woman genuinely can't stand the idea of having sex any longer maybe she should allow her husband to get sex elsewhere. Or even encourage him to do so. In the past this was a solution that some married couples did adopt - the wife would tolerate her husband's having affairs or visiting whores. Maybe not an ideal solution, but possibly better than expecting him to live without sex and then complaining when the marriage falls apart.

    I don’t know if it’s in the Bible or not (having only ever read bits and pieces)

    Oh, it’s packed with good stuff.

    Yes, establish early on that sexually satisfying one another is an integral and inescapable part of your marriage.

    1 Corinthians 7:2-5

    But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

    And most importantly, marry well:

    Proverbs 12:4

    An excellent wife is the crown of her husband,
    but she who brings shame is like rottenness in his bones.

    I’ve known a man with rotting bones (bone cancer), and I’ve known men who married poorly, and to be honest the man with the rotting bones was happier — he married well.

  124. anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    So when she decides to use sex as a doggy treat or worse still a weapon, as I mentioned above this looks a whole lot like outright betrayal and vow breaking.
     
    I would love to see an example of a woman using sex as a doggy treat, not necessarily a real one, a hypothetical one would do just fine. Because it sounds to me like men want women to feel obligated to cater to their needs without feeling any reciprocal obligation to their wives.

    I'm not saying that my perception is correct. Maybe it isn't. I'm sincerely asking for clarification.

    Do you think a husband is unconditionally entitled to sex in a marriage? If not, what sorts of conditions are reasonable?

    Bear in mind that withholding of sex is not necessarily a deliberate manipulation.

    If a woman always says she's too tired for sex, maybe she really is too tired for sex, and if you want any, you're going to have to help some.

    I always know when I'm gonna get hit up. Mr. Rosie always asks if there's anything he can do to help or something like that, and then I tell him, and he does it forthwith (knock me over with a feather!) t kind of gets on my nerves that he only does that when he wants something from me.

    On the other hand, at least he does that! He recognizes that if he wants me to make some time for him, I might need a little extra help that day. That's just being a decent husband, though I fear some would see that as him being some sort of trained puppy (with the doggy treats analogy and all).

    I would love to see an example of a woman using sex as a doggy treat, not necessarily a real one, a hypothetical one would do just fine.

    The endless “job list” or “honey do” list for a start; the list of chores and improvements and family duties that when completed will earn 2 minutes and 30 seconds of missionary intercourse with a starfish who wants to know “Done yet? Done yet?” Of course, the list never ends so there’s always an excuse for a woman to refuse to do her marital duty. There are entire sites from reddit’s “deadbedrooms” to a portion of “themarriagebed” to other sites where this is discussed. It might be a problem, at least if one regards men as humans rather than robots.

    But heaven forbid a man should fail to obey his loving wife in any way. That’s abuse!

    Because it sounds to me like men want women to feel obligated to cater to their needs without feeling any reciprocal obligation to their wives.

    Of course it sounds that way, you are a misandric female chauvinist who regards men as objects rather than human beings.

    I’m not saying that my perception is correct. Maybe it isn’t. I’m sincerely asking for clarification.

    Clarified?

    Do you think a husband is unconditionally entitled to sex in a marriage?

    Strawman or poisoning the well? Hmm, I’ll have to think. Either way it’s a “have you stopped beating your dog” kind of no-win question.

    If not, what sorts of conditions are reasonable?

    Two adults can work that out between each other, now can’t they? Of course, if he’s been brainwashed to always appease “Mommy” then there will be problems, for sure. If she’s been raised to be a Strong, Independent Woman who submits to no one and nothing, there will be problems.

    Bear in mind that withholding of sex is not necessarily a deliberate manipulation.

    Of course not. Breaking a promise isn’t necessarily breaking a promise, either, at least not when a woman does it.

    If a woman always says she’s too tired for sex, maybe she really is too tired for sex, and if you want any, you’re going to have to help some.

    How many months would say is reasonable for a woman to be ‘too tired” every night, no matter how her husband caters to her? Is 6 months unreasonable? How about 12? 36? 48? At what point should a man get the message that he’s effectively been divorced?

    I always know when I’m gonna get hit up. Mr. Rosie always asks if there’s anything he can do to help or something like that, and then I tell him, and he does it forthwith (knock me over with a feather!) t kind of gets on my nerves that he only does that when he wants something from me.

    That’s sad. It’s weak, “mommy, may I please?” style provider game. Not good for either of you.

    On the other hand, at least he does that! He recognizes that if he wants me to make some time for him, I might need a little extra help that day. That’s just being a decent husband, though I fear some would see that as him being some sort of trained puppy (with the doggy treats analogy and all).

    IMO you two have some issues that need to be worked out. Just for a start Mr. Rosie should retrieve his testicles from your purse.

    • Thanks: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Rosie

    The endless “job list” or “honey do” list for a start;
     
    The nature of chores is precisely that they are endless. Mine certainly are. So what?

    Two adults can work that out between each other, now can’t they?
     
    Yes.

    Is 6 months unreasonable?
     
    Yes. What's your point?

    That’s sad. It’s weak, “mommy, may I please?” style provider game. Not good for either of you.
     
    Being a child (chronological or mental, I'm not sure) you see things as "game" when in fact they are just loving adults being considerate of each other's needs and wants, and, as you say, "working it out between each other."

    But thanks, you have indeed brought clarity to the issue.

  125. @nebulafox
    >Thanks for standing up for women. The contempt and outright hatred for women on the manosphere grates, along with the promotion of male promiscuity. White Sharia indeed.

    I think if you aren't a psychopath or an idiot, you can sift out the useful stuff about self-improvement/how you were lied to by mainstream culture about women from the misogynistic BS that make women into half-demonic, half-subhuman creatures. I mean: it's kind of sad if you are going to spend so much time and effort into attracting people you don't even like. That's so hollow.

    Moreover, I'm just stating what should be common sense truth. It's a sad statement about Internet culture that there seem to be so many angry, bitter people out there who hate the opposite sex. It never seems to occur to them that their romantic problems are probably partly caused by the anger and bitterness, particularly the men: women are generally a lot more subtly attuned than we are, they can detect this kind of thing.

    There's such a thing as going too far in the understandable push-back against the universalist pablum that we get treated to in Western culture, whether it is about race or sex or religion or whatever. We're all human beings who basically want the same things out of life at the end of day: a good mate, financial security, health, friends. It'd do us well to not forget that and not replace one extreme with another.

    We’re all human beings who basically want the same things out of life at the end of day: a good mate, financial security, health, friends.

    Nonsense. That’s naive, feel-good, kumbayah self-delusion. Hope you don’t learn how wrong that really is the hard way.

  126. @anon
    I would love to see an example of a woman using sex as a doggy treat, not necessarily a real one, a hypothetical one would do just fine.

    The endless "job list" or "honey do" list for a start; the list of chores and improvements and family duties that when completed will earn 2 minutes and 30 seconds of missionary intercourse with a starfish who wants to know "Done yet? Done yet?" Of course, the list never ends so there's always an excuse for a woman to refuse to do her marital duty. There are entire sites from reddit's "deadbedrooms" to a portion of "themarriagebed" to other sites where this is discussed. It might be a problem, at least if one regards men as humans rather than robots.

    But heaven forbid a man should fail to obey his loving wife in any way. That's abuse!

    Because it sounds to me like men want women to feel obligated to cater to their needs without feeling any reciprocal obligation to their wives.

    Of course it sounds that way, you are a misandric female chauvinist who regards men as objects rather than human beings.

    I’m not saying that my perception is correct. Maybe it isn’t. I’m sincerely asking for clarification.

    Clarified?

    Do you think a husband is unconditionally entitled to sex in a marriage?

    Strawman or poisoning the well? Hmm, I'll have to think. Either way it's a "have you stopped beating your dog" kind of no-win question.

    If not, what sorts of conditions are reasonable?

    Two adults can work that out between each other, now can't they? Of course, if he's been brainwashed to always appease "Mommy" then there will be problems, for sure. If she's been raised to be a Strong, Independent Woman who submits to no one and nothing, there will be problems.

    Bear in mind that withholding of sex is not necessarily a deliberate manipulation.

    Of course not. Breaking a promise isn't necessarily breaking a promise, either, at least not when a woman does it.

    If a woman always says she’s too tired for sex, maybe she really is too tired for sex, and if you want any, you’re going to have to help some.

    How many months would say is reasonable for a woman to be 'too tired" every night, no matter how her husband caters to her? Is 6 months unreasonable? How about 12? 36? 48? At what point should a man get the message that he's effectively been divorced?

    I always know when I’m gonna get hit up. Mr. Rosie always asks if there’s anything he can do to help or something like that, and then I tell him, and he does it forthwith (knock me over with a feather!) t kind of gets on my nerves that he only does that when he wants something from me.

    That's sad. It's weak, "mommy, may I please?" style provider game. Not good for either of you.

    On the other hand, at least he does that! He recognizes that if he wants me to make some time for him, I might need a little extra help that day. That’s just being a decent husband, though I fear some would see that as him being some sort of trained puppy (with the doggy treats analogy and all).

    IMO you two have some issues that need to be worked out. Just for a start Mr. Rosie should retrieve his testicles from your purse.

    The endless “job list” or “honey do” list for a start;

    The nature of chores is precisely that they are endless. Mine certainly are. So what?

    Two adults can work that out between each other, now can’t they?

    Yes.

    Is 6 months unreasonable?

    Yes. What’s your point?

    That’s sad. It’s weak, “mommy, may I please?” style provider game. Not good for either of you.

    Being a child (chronological or mental, I’m not sure) you see things as “game” when in fact they are just loving adults being considerate of each other’s needs and wants, and, as you say, “working it out between each other.”

    But thanks, you have indeed brought clarity to the issue.

  127. @Rattus Norwegius
    You write that "Don’t project your circumstances to others who live very differently. My family and I belong to a tightly-knit traditional Catholic community whose members homeschool together. The children of our community, by and large, attend universities such as Thomas Aquinas College where the dorms are sex-segregated (members of the opposite sex are not allowed), are inculcated in virtue, including chastity, and marry relatively early (early 20’s) and have lots of children. They don’t have much of an opportunity to engage in fornication and debauchery."

    While you state that the children in your community are taught community values, are there not anyone who chose not to partake in your community values? Have you met any bumps in the road personally? Only answer if you feel comfortable.

    Hypothetically how would react to any of your children abandoning your 'way of life'?

    How large is your catholic community? Does the denomination have a special name? Is it a movement?

    While you state that the children in your community are taught community values, are there not anyone who chose not to partake in your community values? Have you met any bumps in the road personally? Only answer if you feel comfortable.

    There have been a handful of children who – as they grew up to be adults – strayed from the faith, but almost all returned to the fold.

    I have not had any issues, but my kids are still young. My oldest is a teenager.

    Hypothetically how would react to any of your children abandoning your ‘way of life’?

    Once they reach adulthood, their conscience is between them and God. My love for my children is not conditional upon them imitating me or following my guidance. Lord knows my way is not the only way.

    How large is your catholic community? Does the denomination have a special name? Is it a movement?

    We are simply a group of obedient, orthodox Catholics in the area we live. There are several hundred families to our group, and we are in touch with others like us throughout the country.

    Catholics do not have disparate “denominations” as Protestants do.

    • Thanks: Rattus Norwegius
    • Replies: @RSDB

    Catholics do not have disparate “denominations” as Protestants do.
     
    We don't, but, at least in the US, we have a few distinct cultural groupings. Aside from the different churches (most of us are Latins but there are also Maronites, Byzantines, etc.) there are Tridentine Mass and Novus Ordo types and, in respect to opinion, there are "libs", "trads", "rad trads", etc. Except for the different churches/rites none of this is formal. There are formal lay groups though, but in general belonging to one or another of them is not particularly a divisive issue so far as I know.

    Most of us would describe ourselves as "obedient and orthodox"-- but not everybody will actually be so.

    I know you know all this, but I'm writing this comment on the off chance some of the non-Catholics here might be curious.
    , @iffen

    Catholics do not have disparate “denominations” as Protestants do.
     
    Every man a castle, every man a religion.
  128. @Twinkie

    While you state that the children in your community are taught community values, are there not anyone who chose not to partake in your community values? Have you met any bumps in the road personally? Only answer if you feel comfortable.
     
    There have been a handful of children who - as they grew up to be adults - strayed from the faith, but almost all returned to the fold.

    I have not had any issues, but my kids are still young. My oldest is a teenager.

    Hypothetically how would react to any of your children abandoning your ‘way of life’?
     
    Once they reach adulthood, their conscience is between them and God. My love for my children is not conditional upon them imitating me or following my guidance. Lord knows my way is not the only way.

    How large is your catholic community? Does the denomination have a special name? Is it a movement?
     
    We are simply a group of obedient, orthodox Catholics in the area we live. There are several hundred families to our group, and we are in touch with others like us throughout the country.

    Catholics do not have disparate “denominations” as Protestants do.

    Catholics do not have disparate “denominations” as Protestants do.

    We don’t, but, at least in the US, we have a few distinct cultural groupings. Aside from the different churches (most of us are Latins but there are also Maronites, Byzantines, etc.) there are Tridentine Mass and Novus Ordo types and, in respect to opinion, there are “libs”, “trads”, “rad trads”, etc. Except for the different churches/rites none of this is formal. There are formal lay groups though, but in general belonging to one or another of them is not particularly a divisive issue so far as I know.

    Most of us would describe ourselves as “obedient and orthodox”– but not everybody will actually be so.

    I know you know all this, but I’m writing this comment on the off chance some of the non-Catholics here might be curious.

    • Replies: @iffen
    I know you know all this, but I’m writing this comment on the off chance some of the non-Catholics here might be curious.

    Do you have any idea what % of Catholics follow the Church's teaching on birth control?
  129. @RSDB

    Catholics do not have disparate “denominations” as Protestants do.
     
    We don't, but, at least in the US, we have a few distinct cultural groupings. Aside from the different churches (most of us are Latins but there are also Maronites, Byzantines, etc.) there are Tridentine Mass and Novus Ordo types and, in respect to opinion, there are "libs", "trads", "rad trads", etc. Except for the different churches/rites none of this is formal. There are formal lay groups though, but in general belonging to one or another of them is not particularly a divisive issue so far as I know.

    Most of us would describe ourselves as "obedient and orthodox"-- but not everybody will actually be so.

    I know you know all this, but I'm writing this comment on the off chance some of the non-Catholics here might be curious.

    I know you know all this, but I’m writing this comment on the off chance some of the non-Catholics here might be curious.

    Do you have any idea what % of Catholics follow the Church’s teaching on birth control?

    • Replies: @RSDB
    I have some idea on what percentage of Catholics follow the Church's teachings on lust, greed, envy, sloth, gluttony, wrath, and pride; it hovers around zero.
  130. @Twinkie

    While you state that the children in your community are taught community values, are there not anyone who chose not to partake in your community values? Have you met any bumps in the road personally? Only answer if you feel comfortable.
     
    There have been a handful of children who - as they grew up to be adults - strayed from the faith, but almost all returned to the fold.

    I have not had any issues, but my kids are still young. My oldest is a teenager.

    Hypothetically how would react to any of your children abandoning your ‘way of life’?
     
    Once they reach adulthood, their conscience is between them and God. My love for my children is not conditional upon them imitating me or following my guidance. Lord knows my way is not the only way.

    How large is your catholic community? Does the denomination have a special name? Is it a movement?
     
    We are simply a group of obedient, orthodox Catholics in the area we live. There are several hundred families to our group, and we are in touch with others like us throughout the country.

    Catholics do not have disparate “denominations” as Protestants do.

    Catholics do not have disparate “denominations” as Protestants do.

    Every man a castle, every man a religion.

  131. @iffen
    I know you know all this, but I’m writing this comment on the off chance some of the non-Catholics here might be curious.

    Do you have any idea what % of Catholics follow the Church's teaching on birth control?

    I have some idea on what percentage of Catholics follow the Church’s teachings on lust, greed, envy, sloth, gluttony, wrath, and pride; it hovers around zero.

    • Replies: @iffen
    Harsh
  132. @RSDB
    I have some idea on what percentage of Catholics follow the Church's teachings on lust, greed, envy, sloth, gluttony, wrath, and pride; it hovers around zero.

    Harsh

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