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Though Saudia Arabia has an outsized impact on US foreign policy, the country largely operates behind a corporate media curtain. It’s unusual to get an empirical glimpse into how Americans feel about the place. Given Saudi Arabia is a putative ally, they feel pretty crappy about the desert dwellers:

Cringe. We don’t need Saudi oil and we don’t need to facilitate a genocide against Houthis in Yemen. They are among the most pitiful, pitiable, poorest people on the planet and they don’t threaten us at all. It’s not like 19 of their nationals crashed airplanes into our skyscrapers, after all.

Fellow repulsive Republicans, it’s long past time we wash our hands of the House of Saud.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy, Race/Ethnicity 
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  1. Anonymous[217] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s obvious why Republicans and men want Saudi Arabia. They want a white and Christian version of it. If you’re a conservative man, and you live in a Saudiesque society, you are treated as a king, simply for being a man. You can permit or deny your daughter to go to university, or find a job. If you allow your wife and daughter to work, you can take all the money they earn. You can marry up to 4 women, but your wives cannot be with other men. You don’t even have to worry about your wife or wives cheating on you. They can’t even leave the house without you chaperoning them.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    If man is allowed marry four women, that's good for roughly 25% of men and quite bad for the other 75%.
  2. They’re like Israel, only worse.

    • Replies: @George Taylor

    They’re like Israel, only worse.
     
    In the eyes of the U.S. Military Industrial Complex, their better. Unlike Israel, they pay full list price for U.S. weapons systems.....
  3. Saudi Arabia is right about women.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    It is funny that the left is kneejerk pro-Muslim while the right allegedly is not, yet it is the American right that likes Saudi Arabia and the left that apparently does not.
  4. 216 says: • Website

    15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi.

    The Bin Laden family is ancestrally Yemeni, and relocated north following the oil. Unsure what the ethnic backgrounds of the hijackers were.

    Yemen is not a real country in any sense, and logically should be re-partitioned, if not an additional partition to create a Houthi state.

    I would caution against describing the Yemenis as “pitiable” with their sky-high TFR at a moment of water shortages from growing khat. Malthusian is a better description.

    Any sympathy, however deserved, would be weaponized by the Warren Occupation to deliver them to a suburb near you.

    The other aspect is that the Saud family’s rule is shakier than one might expect. The replacement is likely even more extreme Salafists. They would be well advised to consider switching from the US to the PRC as a client.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    The need to vociferously reject the false dichotomy that we must either invade them or invite them has been a long, long time coming.
    , @Talha
    There used to be a North and South Yemen not long ago.

    The other aspect is that the Saud family’s rule is shakier than one might expect. The replacement is likely even more extreme Salafists.
     
    Not sure about this. The trend in Saudi has been towards less Salafi-extremism as of late. I think Daesh, really kind of scared them regarding a potential nightmare scenario - they are actually having these debates and discussions out in the open right now which is a good sign:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWORE6OBfhc

    The Saudis basically pay billions in arms purchases for weapons they barely maintain or know how to use (the Saudi military is the most useless pound-for-pound in relation to the dollar amount spent) in order to keep on the good side of the US and have them patrol the Persian Gulf on their behalf. I think Republicans like them only as a counterweight to Iran which they have been programmed to hate even more.

    As far as Saud falling, it is possible. The most powerful faction in Saudi Arabia is not the relatively small national army, but the Pakistani troops that are stationed there numbering close to 70,000. They are the kingmakers and whichever tribe/clan/house wants to take Saudi Arabia will be the one that gets them on their side.

    Dream scenario: house of Saud falls and Pakistani troops take over with a coordinated assault from Turkish special forces and jets stationed in Qatar (https://ahvalnews.com/saudi-turkey/turkey-expand-military-presence-qatar-new-base) and install a compliant vassal ruler (preferably from Ahl ul-Bayt [lineage from the prophetic household])...Hanafi school becomes top dog on the Hijaz once again.

    Peace.

    , @orionyx
    Yemen has been a more real country than Saudi Arabia for at least 2000 years. The very name, coupled with that of Somalia, tells you that it was on the trade circuit of the Erythrean Sea, which was at least as important in those times as the Mediterranean. At the same time, Arabia has always been more of a geographical expression than a country. And as for Saudi, that's a very recent imperial creation.
    Yemen was a thriving civilization based on agriculture and trade, until the collapse of a significant dam in about the 5th century put an end to its irrigation system. But it still exported a lot of valued spices and perfumes to the west. When Lady Macbeth spoke of "all the perfumes of Arabia", she was talking of Yemeni products.
  5. I am surprised and impressed at how anti-Saudi Democrats are. I don’t think I ever agreed with them before.

    • Replies: @neutral
    My guess it has to do with being anti Trump, if Trump was not around that graph would probably be completely different.
  6. @216
    15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi.

    The Bin Laden family is ancestrally Yemeni, and relocated north following the oil. Unsure what the ethnic backgrounds of the hijackers were.

    Yemen is not a real country in any sense, and logically should be re-partitioned, if not an additional partition to create a Houthi state.

    I would caution against describing the Yemenis as "pitiable" with their sky-high TFR at a moment of water shortages from growing khat. Malthusian is a better description.

    Any sympathy, however deserved, would be weaponized by the Warren Occupation to deliver them to a suburb near you.

    The other aspect is that the Saud family's rule is shakier than one might expect. The replacement is likely even more extreme Salafists. They would be well advised to consider switching from the US to the PRC as a client.

    The need to vociferously reject the false dichotomy that we must either invade them or invite them has been a long, long time coming.

    • Agree: 216, SFG, Talha
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    What we really need is for people to understand that it's a ruse of our globalist elites to tell us we must invite people from the countries that they decided must be invaded. Yeah, that's the ticket, inviting people's to immigrate whose very relatives may have been maimed or killed by the US military, or, even better, different groups from these regions who are at war with each other over there!

    (See, for an example, "Importing a civil war, in Sweden".)
  7. Saudi Arabia is in a mechanical sense our actual Greatest Ally.

    Everything about our modern life is only possible because of dollar hegemony, and Saudi Arabia is basically the lynchpin of that system

    If this goes away, absolute bloodbath

    (Narrator: and it definitely would go away)

    • Agree: nokangaroos
    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    "(Narrator: and it definitely would go away)"

    Would? No, will.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    Agree, with a caveat. Saudi Arabia used to be the lynchpin but it's at risk of losing that status. An oil field gets blown up and... the world in general barely notices and even the oil markets in particular barely noticed.
  8. @216
    15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi.

    The Bin Laden family is ancestrally Yemeni, and relocated north following the oil. Unsure what the ethnic backgrounds of the hijackers were.

    Yemen is not a real country in any sense, and logically should be re-partitioned, if not an additional partition to create a Houthi state.

    I would caution against describing the Yemenis as "pitiable" with their sky-high TFR at a moment of water shortages from growing khat. Malthusian is a better description.

    Any sympathy, however deserved, would be weaponized by the Warren Occupation to deliver them to a suburb near you.

    The other aspect is that the Saud family's rule is shakier than one might expect. The replacement is likely even more extreme Salafists. They would be well advised to consider switching from the US to the PRC as a client.

    There used to be a North and South Yemen not long ago.

    The other aspect is that the Saud family’s rule is shakier than one might expect. The replacement is likely even more extreme Salafists.

    Not sure about this. The trend in Saudi has been towards less Salafi-extremism as of late. I think Daesh, really kind of scared them regarding a potential nightmare scenario – they are actually having these debates and discussions out in the open right now which is a good sign:

    The Saudis basically pay billions in arms purchases for weapons they barely maintain or know how to use (the Saudi military is the most useless pound-for-pound in relation to the dollar amount spent) in order to keep on the good side of the US and have them patrol the Persian Gulf on their behalf. I think Republicans like them only as a counterweight to Iran which they have been programmed to hate even more.

    As far as Saud falling, it is possible. The most powerful faction in Saudi Arabia is not the relatively small national army, but the Pakistani troops that are stationed there numbering close to 70,000. They are the kingmakers and whichever tribe/clan/house wants to take Saudi Arabia will be the one that gets them on their side.

    Dream scenario: house of Saud falls and Pakistani troops take over with a coordinated assault from Turkish special forces and jets stationed in Qatar (https://ahvalnews.com/saudi-turkey/turkey-expand-military-presence-qatar-new-base) and install a compliant vassal ruler (preferably from Ahl ul-Bayt [lineage from the prophetic household])…Hanafi school becomes top dog on the Hijaz once again.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @neutral

    Dream scenario: house of Saud falls and Pakistani troops take over with a coordinated assault from Turkish special forces and jets stationed in Qatar (https://ahvalnews.com/saudi-turkey/turkey-expand-military-presence-qatar-new-base) and install a compliant vassal ruler (preferably from Ahl ul-Bayt [lineage from the prophetic household])…Hanafi school becomes top dog on the Hijaz once again.
     
    I need to add to that, with Saudi Arabia becoming the Islamic Republic of Arabia then Egypt will not be able to maintain its junta regime for long. With both Egypt and Arabia not being cucks to Israel they massively increase the pressure on Israel, kind of how all of Africa was against apartheid South Africa. All that expensive hardware that Saudi Arabia is so useless at using can be given to more capable hands like Hamas and Hezbollah.

    That is the dream scenario.

    , @Twinkie

    Dream scenario
     
    Or we could just develop complete energy autarchy and, better yet, become a giant net exporter and make petroleum inexpensive. That's the real dream.
    , @iffen

    Dream scenario: house of Saud falls and Pakistani troops take over with a coordinated assault from Turkish special forces and jets stationed in Qatar (https://ahvalnews.com/saudi-turkey/turkey-expand-military-presence-qatar-new-base) and install a compliant vassal ruler (preferably from Ahl ul-Bayt [lineage from the prophetic household])…Hanafi school becomes top dog on the Hijaz once again.

     

    And Talha is appointed supreme madrasah commissar for life.
  9. @Audacious Epigone
    The need to vociferously reject the false dichotomy that we must either invade them or invite them has been a long, long time coming.

    What we really need is for people to understand that it’s a ruse of our globalist elites to tell us we must invite people from the countries that they decided must be invaded. Yeah, that’s the ticket, inviting people’s to immigrate whose very relatives may have been maimed or killed by the US military, or, even better, different groups from these regions who are at war with each other over there!

    (See, for an example, “Importing a civil war, in Sweden”.)

  10. Most of us who deployed along-side Saudis, particularly the Princes, came away with a serious dislike for them. Sure, they occasionally invited us lesser mortals to their parties, but they reserved the bags of cash for senior Field grade, Flag officers, and elected and appointed officials, which explains why they feel so much affection for them.

  11. Those 12 percent of Republicans who like Saudia Arabia have 100 percent control of the Repbublican Party

  12. @Jay Fink
    I am surprised and impressed at how anti-Saudi Democrats are. I don't think I ever agreed with them before.

    My guess it has to do with being anti Trump, if Trump was not around that graph would probably be completely different.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
    I wonder if SA killing the journalist has anything to do with it?
  13. @Talha
    There used to be a North and South Yemen not long ago.

    The other aspect is that the Saud family’s rule is shakier than one might expect. The replacement is likely even more extreme Salafists.
     
    Not sure about this. The trend in Saudi has been towards less Salafi-extremism as of late. I think Daesh, really kind of scared them regarding a potential nightmare scenario - they are actually having these debates and discussions out in the open right now which is a good sign:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWORE6OBfhc

    The Saudis basically pay billions in arms purchases for weapons they barely maintain or know how to use (the Saudi military is the most useless pound-for-pound in relation to the dollar amount spent) in order to keep on the good side of the US and have them patrol the Persian Gulf on their behalf. I think Republicans like them only as a counterweight to Iran which they have been programmed to hate even more.

    As far as Saud falling, it is possible. The most powerful faction in Saudi Arabia is not the relatively small national army, but the Pakistani troops that are stationed there numbering close to 70,000. They are the kingmakers and whichever tribe/clan/house wants to take Saudi Arabia will be the one that gets them on their side.

    Dream scenario: house of Saud falls and Pakistani troops take over with a coordinated assault from Turkish special forces and jets stationed in Qatar (https://ahvalnews.com/saudi-turkey/turkey-expand-military-presence-qatar-new-base) and install a compliant vassal ruler (preferably from Ahl ul-Bayt [lineage from the prophetic household])...Hanafi school becomes top dog on the Hijaz once again.

    Peace.

    Dream scenario: house of Saud falls and Pakistani troops take over with a coordinated assault from Turkish special forces and jets stationed in Qatar (https://ahvalnews.com/saudi-turkey/turkey-expand-military-presence-qatar-new-base) and install a compliant vassal ruler (preferably from Ahl ul-Bayt [lineage from the prophetic household])…Hanafi school becomes top dog on the Hijaz once again.

    I need to add to that, with Saudi Arabia becoming the Islamic Republic of Arabia then Egypt will not be able to maintain its junta regime for long. With both Egypt and Arabia not being cucks to Israel they massively increase the pressure on Israel, kind of how all of Africa was against apartheid South Africa. All that expensive hardware that Saudi Arabia is so useless at using can be given to more capable hands like Hamas and Hezbollah.

    That is the dream scenario.

  14. The House of Saud is a bunch of survivors. They somehow manage to balance us Americans, the Israelis, the Salafists, and their Shia subjects in the oil-producing areas, all the while fending off the Iranians. And they do this without having a self-sustainable, capable army, for that matter.

    The Saudis don’t have a powerful, influential, and wealthy domestic constituency in the United States as the Israelis do (or the business lobby as the Chinese do), yet have managed to burrow into the body politic of America somehow. Sure, having a lot of oil money helps, but look how poorly, say, the Russians play the game (the Soviets were the masters of setting up friendly fronts in the West, but somehow the Russian successors have managed to bungle all that after the collapse of communism and are now quite clumsy at influence acquisition).

    One thing that much of the American public doesn’t know is how much foreign money flows – “non-directly” – to various think tanks and policy influencers in Washington, D.C. via foundations and such. I don’t know whether it is still around, but there used to be an outfit in D.C. that tracked the inflow of Saudi money to various groups and peoples by such means.

  15. @Talha
    There used to be a North and South Yemen not long ago.

    The other aspect is that the Saud family’s rule is shakier than one might expect. The replacement is likely even more extreme Salafists.
     
    Not sure about this. The trend in Saudi has been towards less Salafi-extremism as of late. I think Daesh, really kind of scared them regarding a potential nightmare scenario - they are actually having these debates and discussions out in the open right now which is a good sign:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWORE6OBfhc

    The Saudis basically pay billions in arms purchases for weapons they barely maintain or know how to use (the Saudi military is the most useless pound-for-pound in relation to the dollar amount spent) in order to keep on the good side of the US and have them patrol the Persian Gulf on their behalf. I think Republicans like them only as a counterweight to Iran which they have been programmed to hate even more.

    As far as Saud falling, it is possible. The most powerful faction in Saudi Arabia is not the relatively small national army, but the Pakistani troops that are stationed there numbering close to 70,000. They are the kingmakers and whichever tribe/clan/house wants to take Saudi Arabia will be the one that gets them on their side.

    Dream scenario: house of Saud falls and Pakistani troops take over with a coordinated assault from Turkish special forces and jets stationed in Qatar (https://ahvalnews.com/saudi-turkey/turkey-expand-military-presence-qatar-new-base) and install a compliant vassal ruler (preferably from Ahl ul-Bayt [lineage from the prophetic household])...Hanafi school becomes top dog on the Hijaz once again.

    Peace.

    Dream scenario

    Or we could just develop complete energy autarchy and, better yet, become a giant net exporter and make petroleum inexpensive. That’s the real dream.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Talha
    Agreed and I think this is possible in the future. I don’t think we are as dependent on oil from Saudi as.nations like Japan, China and India though; those are the guys that need to figure out how to become independent.

    Peace.
    , @Mr. Rational
    Make petroleum obsolete and you'll do better.

    That, plus bringing manufacturing back home, would end the necessity for US dollar hegemony.  We're going to lose it anyway so we might as well be ready for it.
    , @Lot
    The USA is a net exporter of refined petroleum and a large exporter of natural gas and NGLs.
  16. @Talha
    There used to be a North and South Yemen not long ago.

    The other aspect is that the Saud family’s rule is shakier than one might expect. The replacement is likely even more extreme Salafists.
     
    Not sure about this. The trend in Saudi has been towards less Salafi-extremism as of late. I think Daesh, really kind of scared them regarding a potential nightmare scenario - they are actually having these debates and discussions out in the open right now which is a good sign:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWORE6OBfhc

    The Saudis basically pay billions in arms purchases for weapons they barely maintain or know how to use (the Saudi military is the most useless pound-for-pound in relation to the dollar amount spent) in order to keep on the good side of the US and have them patrol the Persian Gulf on their behalf. I think Republicans like them only as a counterweight to Iran which they have been programmed to hate even more.

    As far as Saud falling, it is possible. The most powerful faction in Saudi Arabia is not the relatively small national army, but the Pakistani troops that are stationed there numbering close to 70,000. They are the kingmakers and whichever tribe/clan/house wants to take Saudi Arabia will be the one that gets them on their side.

    Dream scenario: house of Saud falls and Pakistani troops take over with a coordinated assault from Turkish special forces and jets stationed in Qatar (https://ahvalnews.com/saudi-turkey/turkey-expand-military-presence-qatar-new-base) and install a compliant vassal ruler (preferably from Ahl ul-Bayt [lineage from the prophetic household])...Hanafi school becomes top dog on the Hijaz once again.

    Peace.

    Dream scenario: house of Saud falls and Pakistani troops take over with a coordinated assault from Turkish special forces and jets stationed in Qatar (https://ahvalnews.com/saudi-turkey/turkey-expand-military-presence-qatar-new-base) and install a compliant vassal ruler (preferably from Ahl ul-Bayt [lineage from the prophetic household])…Hanafi school becomes top dog on the Hijaz once again.

    And Talha is appointed supreme madrasah commissar for life.

    • Replies: @Talha
    Unqualified people being put into positions of influence that they do not deserve is precisely what is wrong with places like Saudi Arabia - no thanks.

    Peace.
  17. @Twinkie

    Dream scenario
     
    Or we could just develop complete energy autarchy and, better yet, become a giant net exporter and make petroleum inexpensive. That's the real dream.

    Agreed and I think this is possible in the future. I don’t think we are as dependent on oil from Saudi as.nations like Japan, China and India though; those are the guys that need to figure out how to become independent.

    Peace.

  18. It’s not like 19 of their nationals crashed airplanes into our skyscrapers, after all.

    Anybody who is still repeating this nonsense is not to be taken seriously.

    • Troll: Mr. Rational
  19. @iffen

    Dream scenario: house of Saud falls and Pakistani troops take over with a coordinated assault from Turkish special forces and jets stationed in Qatar (https://ahvalnews.com/saudi-turkey/turkey-expand-military-presence-qatar-new-base) and install a compliant vassal ruler (preferably from Ahl ul-Bayt [lineage from the prophetic household])…Hanafi school becomes top dog on the Hijaz once again.

     

    And Talha is appointed supreme madrasah commissar for life.

    Unqualified people being put into positions of influence that they do not deserve is precisely what is wrong with places like Saudi Arabia – no thanks.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
    It is a bit unfair to single out KSA for what is commonplace.
  20. @Twinkie

    Dream scenario
     
    Or we could just develop complete energy autarchy and, better yet, become a giant net exporter and make petroleum inexpensive. That's the real dream.

    Make petroleum obsolete and you’ll do better.

    That, plus bringing manufacturing back home, would end the necessity for US dollar hegemony.  We’re going to lose it anyway so we might as well be ready for it.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  21. Though Saudia Arabia has an outsized impact on US foreign policy, the country largely operates behind a corporate media curtain. It’s unusual to get an empirical glimpse into how Americans feel about the place. Given Saudi Arabia is a putative ally, they feel pretty crappy about the desert dwellers:

    I ain’t so impressed with any of the new songs from Prince Camel Jockey and the Bone Saw Boys neither.

    They had some fun with their hit songs in 1973 or so, but they really went downhill after the Saudi driven planes plowed into the World Trade Center Towers and the Pentagon and some field and trees in Pennsylvania in September of 2001.

    It was clear to this peasant in the American Empire that the Bush Organized Crime Syndicate was completely and totally in bed with the Saudi Organized Crime Syndicate. The treasonous creatures in the Bush Organized Crime Syndicate put the interests of the Saudi ruling class way ahead of the interests of the United States of America.

    President Trump should demand and then forcibly take massive amounts of oil and natural gas from the Saudi Organized Crime Syndicate and, if necessary, find some other Saudi stooges to run the joint. The Chinese and the Russians will have to be cut in on the action, of course, but that’s a small price to pay to be rid of the rancid anti-American scoundrels in the Saudi Organized Crime Syndicate.

    Tweets from 2014 and 2015:

  22. Rupert Murdoch and his thugs in the Murdoch Mob are in bed with the Saudi ruling class.

    A lot of mugs in the ruling class of the American Empire seem to be getting a lot of oil loot from the ruling class of Saudi Arabia.

    Antipodean Globalizer Rupert Murdoch uses Fox News to protect the ruling class of Saudi Arabia. Rupert Murdoch and his mob also protect and advance the interests of Israel at the expense of the interests of the USA.

    Saudi Arabia is a millstone client thug state of the American Empire.

    How many Swamp City DC dwellers are getting oil loot cash bribes from the Saudi Organized Crime Syndicate?

    It turns out that Prince Tallyweed Wacker sold his billions of dollars of shares of Fox News in 2017. But Rupert Murdoch is good pals with the new ruler of the Saudi Organized Crime Syndicate named Prince Mohammed Bin Salmon.

    Rupert Murdoch and his Murdoch Mob at Fox News and the Wall Street Journal should be taxed so hard their pips squeak, and then Fox News should be broken up and the Wall Street Journal should be taken over by American owners who put America First and not Globalization First or Financialization First or Multiculturalism First or Saudi Arabia First or Israel First or China First or Mexico First.

    Tweet from 2015:

    • Replies: @Talha

    Saudi Arabia is a millstone client thug state of the American Empire.
     
    Though I love this sentence - beautifully worded - Saudi Arabia isn't really a good thug. It's more of a wimpy sidekick from a rich family that whines a lot about how it'll pay his big bully friend to beat you up.

    All of their military strength is bought or paid for.

    Peace.
  23. @Charles Pewitt
    Rupert Murdoch and his thugs in the Murdoch Mob are in bed with the Saudi ruling class.

    A lot of mugs in the ruling class of the American Empire seem to be getting a lot of oil loot from the ruling class of Saudi Arabia.

    Antipodean Globalizer Rupert Murdoch uses Fox News to protect the ruling class of Saudi Arabia. Rupert Murdoch and his mob also protect and advance the interests of Israel at the expense of the interests of the USA.

    Saudi Arabia is a millstone client thug state of the American Empire.

    How many Swamp City DC dwellers are getting oil loot cash bribes from the Saudi Organized Crime Syndicate?

    It turns out that Prince Tallyweed Wacker sold his billions of dollars of shares of Fox News in 2017. But Rupert Murdoch is good pals with the new ruler of the Saudi Organized Crime Syndicate named Prince Mohammed Bin Salmon.

    Rupert Murdoch and his Murdoch Mob at Fox News and the Wall Street Journal should be taxed so hard their pips squeak, and then Fox News should be broken up and the Wall Street Journal should be taken over by American owners who put America First and not Globalization First or Financialization First or Multiculturalism First or Saudi Arabia First or Israel First or China First or Mexico First.

    Tweet from 2015:

    https://twitter.com/CharlesPewitt/status/631906249504882688

    Saudi Arabia is a millstone client thug state of the American Empire.

    Though I love this sentence – beautifully worded – Saudi Arabia isn’t really a good thug. It’s more of a wimpy sidekick from a rich family that whines a lot about how it’ll pay his big bully friend to beat you up.

    All of their military strength is bought or paid for.

    Peace.

  24. Support for SA is proxy support for Israel, since the Israelis and the Saudis are in de facto alliance against Iran. Good luck trying to upset that apple cart.

  25. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Unknown, ~ 400 B.C.

    The are few reasons to believe that good relations between the Saudis and the U.S. are set in stone. Currently, working with the Saudis is in the interests of America. MBS opposes — Wahhabism, the Muslim Terrorist Brotherhood, and the Iranian started nuclear arms race. All of these threats to the common good are falling apart under pressure.

    Give it another 20 years. Either
    — Iran will start a massive Muslim self-extermination event in the Middle East.
    — Or, the most violent aspects of both Shia and Sunni Islam will be ejected and repudiated.

    Either way, more distance will separate the diverging interest of SA and the U.S. Once they no longer need each other.

    PEACE 😇

  26. @Talha
    Unqualified people being put into positions of influence that they do not deserve is precisely what is wrong with places like Saudi Arabia - no thanks.

    Peace.

    It is a bit unfair to single out KSA for what is commonplace.

    • Replies: @Talha
    It's commonplace (especially in that area) for sure, they just have it at an inordinately high level.

    Like, say, if you have the flu vs the plague - yeah sure both are diseases, but...

    Peace.
  27. @iffen
    It is a bit unfair to single out KSA for what is commonplace.

    It’s commonplace (especially in that area) for sure, they just have it at an inordinately high level.

    Like, say, if you have the flu vs the plague – yeah sure both are diseases, but…

    Peace.

  28. Yemen is not really about Yemen. Yemen has a very healthy and lucrative relationship with the Saudis years ago. The Saudis, a country that actually needed workers, hired thousands of Yemenis to work in Saudia Arabia. Then because Islam has the trap of universalism — one of the reasons, we should not seek to import an single one, they en masse began protests against the Saudis Islamic practices, which had nothing to do with Yemen, suspected incites by Iranians. When the protests began to interfere with Saudi governance, the Saudis terminated the economic relationship. Plunging Yemen into the economic mess it is today.

    It was utterly foolish for the Yemenis to interfere in Saudi politics, but then, we have Mexicans serving on juries and in LA and San Francisco seeking political office, teaching, coaching, serving on boards and in lots of places inside Hollywood celebrity and non-celebrity businesses and homes. So, who’s to say. Me for US, sovereignty matters. At any rate, the Saudis rightfully gave Yemenis the boot. And given the long term tit for tat between Shia and Sunnis — typical. At any rate, Iran is really the issue.

    And the fault we place on the Saudis as to radicals, actually has deeper roots in activist Islam as part the greater Islamic revolution. One of the first huge blows modern times(?) – the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and the assassination of Pres Anwar Sadat — furthermore, what most citizens seem ignorant of is that Saudi Arabia has been battling terrorists since since before the 1970’s and the Royal family in Saudi Arabia have been primary targets. So I like to walk carefully before spouting platitudes about brutality — as a US citizen, there are reasons to love the privilige. Most of here would dead for the views we hold, killed for our opinions, on which side of the road to drive on much more, our views on social configuration.

    The rhetroic about Arabia is colored by so much incorrect, volatile, and emotional rhetoric since 9/11, an honest rendering is very difficult.

    Note: I have held these before 9/11 and 9/11 doesn’t really change the past so I hold today — even if I don’t get my well deserved check for the same

    laughing

    I think the invasion of Yemen was a mistake. I think the Saudis have only made their relations and strategic position worse by fighting the consequences of the civil conflict — The Houthis won, they have gone so far as to shut out the black members of the population for the lighter skinned to have greater appeal. Anything to appease western sensibilities.

  29. @216
    15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi.

    The Bin Laden family is ancestrally Yemeni, and relocated north following the oil. Unsure what the ethnic backgrounds of the hijackers were.

    Yemen is not a real country in any sense, and logically should be re-partitioned, if not an additional partition to create a Houthi state.

    I would caution against describing the Yemenis as "pitiable" with their sky-high TFR at a moment of water shortages from growing khat. Malthusian is a better description.

    Any sympathy, however deserved, would be weaponized by the Warren Occupation to deliver them to a suburb near you.

    The other aspect is that the Saud family's rule is shakier than one might expect. The replacement is likely even more extreme Salafists. They would be well advised to consider switching from the US to the PRC as a client.

    Yemen has been a more real country than Saudi Arabia for at least 2000 years. The very name, coupled with that of Somalia, tells you that it was on the trade circuit of the Erythrean Sea, which was at least as important in those times as the Mediterranean. At the same time, Arabia has always been more of a geographical expression than a country. And as for Saudi, that’s a very recent imperial creation.
    Yemen was a thriving civilization based on agriculture and trade, until the collapse of a significant dam in about the 5th century put an end to its irrigation system. But it still exported a lot of valued spices and perfumes to the west. When Lady Macbeth spoke of “all the perfumes of Arabia”, she was talking of Yemeni products.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    Wasn't Yemen called Aden while it was part of British India until 1937?
    , @Twinkie

    “all the perfumes of Arabia”, she was talking of Yemeni products.
     
    Southern Arabia, Yemen, and Somalia produced myrrh and frankincense (remember the gifts of the magi to Jesus?), which were enormously valuable during the Roman times. These regions, along with the Nabatean middle men who dominated the caravan routes, drained huge sums of silver from the Roman Empire (in which the government of Rome was complicit, because it levied a quarter tax on such imports and, which, along with the tax on the Indian trade, accounted for a large fraction of the imperial treasury.
  30. @SFG
    They're like Israel, only worse.

    They’re like Israel, only worse.

    In the eyes of the U.S. Military Industrial Complex, their better. Unlike Israel, they pay full list price for U.S. weapons systems…..

  31. @neutral
    My guess it has to do with being anti Trump, if Trump was not around that graph would probably be completely different.

    I wonder if SA killing the journalist has anything to do with it?

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  32. @Not My Economy
    Saudi Arabia is in a mechanical sense our actual Greatest Ally.

    Everything about our modern life is only possible because of dollar hegemony, and Saudi Arabia is basically the lynchpin of that system

    If this goes away, absolute bloodbath

    (Narrator: and it definitely would go away)

    “(Narrator: and it definitely would go away)”

    Would? No, will.

  33. If anything, the data show that yet again the whole Republican/Democrat is an obsolete categorization of modern US politics. I would venture that most of those Republicans are neocons, which is to say, they have pretty much nothing in common with me policy-wise.

    In 1999 I trained in Saudi with the their version of the Marines – Royal Naval Infantry – or some such, I forget and don’t care to look it up. Imagine the Keystone Kops but 10 times worse with real ammo. Their amphibious unit consisted of a motley crew operating old Czech built OT-64 SKOTs, with a hodgepodge of medium to heavy machine guns mounted on top; Soviet, Nato, you name it. Twice that I remember they accidentally discharged their main gun while we weren’t even in a live fire exercise, let alone a range. It was no wonder the Saudi royal family was scared to death of Iraq and later Iran. Any semi competent invasion of the country would more than likely be successful.

    Any depiction of the uncovered female is forbidden (Our platoon t-shirt was a cartoon photo of an alligator recusing a mermaid; since the mermaid had a seashell bikini top, we weren’t allowed to wear it. ) Then we heard the motto of men in Saudi was “Men are for pleasure, women are for babies.” At night the Saudi troops would wander around holding hands with each other.

    • Replies: @Talha

    At night the Saudi troops would wander around holding hands with each other.
     
    OK, but that doesn’t really mean anything. When I was in Egypt it was common for a man to grab hold of your hand to lead you somewhere, like if you wanted him to point you out to a restaurant or bus stop or mosque. I held hands with some men in that kind of situation where we were going to the same destination, didn’t mean anything. Felt a bit weird at first, but then you get used to it since nobody else cares.

    My brother spent some time working in Saudi among Saudi office workers and obviously as a Muslim so they would take him to go out to the desert for things like hunting elephant mice and camp fires. He did mention that he did notice a few of them were communicating some kind of attraction to each other in the office, but in a very low key way, but it wasn’t widespread or ubiquitous.

    Peace.

    , @Twinkie
    The best trained Saudi troops are their national guard, which is their anti-coup force. Lightly equipped, but has higher readiness than their army units and the manpower is derived from the desert tribes.

    If you thought the Saudis made for poor soldiers, you haven’t seen the Kuwaitis. Same incompetence, sloppiness, and cowardice, but with twice the arrogance of the Saudis.
  34. @orionyx
    Yemen has been a more real country than Saudi Arabia for at least 2000 years. The very name, coupled with that of Somalia, tells you that it was on the trade circuit of the Erythrean Sea, which was at least as important in those times as the Mediterranean. At the same time, Arabia has always been more of a geographical expression than a country. And as for Saudi, that's a very recent imperial creation.
    Yemen was a thriving civilization based on agriculture and trade, until the collapse of a significant dam in about the 5th century put an end to its irrigation system. But it still exported a lot of valued spices and perfumes to the west. When Lady Macbeth spoke of "all the perfumes of Arabia", she was talking of Yemeni products.

    Wasn’t Yemen called Aden while it was part of British India until 1937?

  35. @MikeatMikedotMike
    If anything, the data show that yet again the whole Republican/Democrat is an obsolete categorization of modern US politics. I would venture that most of those Republicans are neocons, which is to say, they have pretty much nothing in common with me policy-wise.

    In 1999 I trained in Saudi with the their version of the Marines - Royal Naval Infantry - or some such, I forget and don't care to look it up. Imagine the Keystone Kops but 10 times worse with real ammo. Their amphibious unit consisted of a motley crew operating old Czech built OT-64 SKOTs, with a hodgepodge of medium to heavy machine guns mounted on top; Soviet, Nato, you name it. Twice that I remember they accidentally discharged their main gun while we weren't even in a live fire exercise, let alone a range. It was no wonder the Saudi royal family was scared to death of Iraq and later Iran. Any semi competent invasion of the country would more than likely be successful.

    Any depiction of the uncovered female is forbidden (Our platoon t-shirt was a cartoon photo of an alligator recusing a mermaid; since the mermaid had a seashell bikini top, we weren't allowed to wear it. ) Then we heard the motto of men in Saudi was "Men are for pleasure, women are for babies." At night the Saudi troops would wander around holding hands with each other.

    At night the Saudi troops would wander around holding hands with each other.

    OK, but that doesn’t really mean anything. When I was in Egypt it was common for a man to grab hold of your hand to lead you somewhere, like if you wanted him to point you out to a restaurant or bus stop or mosque. I held hands with some men in that kind of situation where we were going to the same destination, didn’t mean anything. Felt a bit weird at first, but then you get used to it since nobody else cares.

    My brother spent some time working in Saudi among Saudi office workers and obviously as a Muslim so they would take him to go out to the desert for things like hunting elephant mice and camp fires. He did mention that he did notice a few of them were communicating some kind of attraction to each other in the office, but in a very low key way, but it wasn’t widespread or ubiquitous.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
    Sorry, meant these guys (jerboa):
    http://animalia.bio/uploads/animals/photos/full/1.25x1/LW4hxib3NnoZi3rNMxp9.jpg

    He told me once they were all in a Range Rover or something and one of these ended up on my brother’s lap (think it got out of the bag or something) and these guys are just laughing at him and he had no clue what to do.
    , @Audacious Epigone
  36. Herr Marantz, here’s something you can do

    https://www.gov.il/en/Departments/ministry_of_aliyah_and_integration

    200 unregulated nukes to protect you from hurt feelings

    • LOL: Herbert West
  37. @Talha

    At night the Saudi troops would wander around holding hands with each other.
     
    OK, but that doesn’t really mean anything. When I was in Egypt it was common for a man to grab hold of your hand to lead you somewhere, like if you wanted him to point you out to a restaurant or bus stop or mosque. I held hands with some men in that kind of situation where we were going to the same destination, didn’t mean anything. Felt a bit weird at first, but then you get used to it since nobody else cares.

    My brother spent some time working in Saudi among Saudi office workers and obviously as a Muslim so they would take him to go out to the desert for things like hunting elephant mice and camp fires. He did mention that he did notice a few of them were communicating some kind of attraction to each other in the office, but in a very low key way, but it wasn’t widespread or ubiquitous.

    Peace.

    Sorry, meant these guys (jerboa):

    He told me once they were all in a Range Rover or something and one of these ended up on my brother’s lap (think it got out of the bag or something) and these guys are just laughing at him and he had no clue what to do.

  38. @orionyx
    Yemen has been a more real country than Saudi Arabia for at least 2000 years. The very name, coupled with that of Somalia, tells you that it was on the trade circuit of the Erythrean Sea, which was at least as important in those times as the Mediterranean. At the same time, Arabia has always been more of a geographical expression than a country. And as for Saudi, that's a very recent imperial creation.
    Yemen was a thriving civilization based on agriculture and trade, until the collapse of a significant dam in about the 5th century put an end to its irrigation system. But it still exported a lot of valued spices and perfumes to the west. When Lady Macbeth spoke of "all the perfumes of Arabia", she was talking of Yemeni products.

    “all the perfumes of Arabia”, she was talking of Yemeni products.

    Southern Arabia, Yemen, and Somalia produced myrrh and frankincense (remember the gifts of the magi to Jesus?), which were enormously valuable during the Roman times. These regions, along with the Nabatean middle men who dominated the caravan routes, drained huge sums of silver from the Roman Empire (in which the government of Rome was complicit, because it levied a quarter tax on such imports and, which, along with the tax on the Indian trade, accounted for a large fraction of the imperial treasury.

  39. @MikeatMikedotMike
    If anything, the data show that yet again the whole Republican/Democrat is an obsolete categorization of modern US politics. I would venture that most of those Republicans are neocons, which is to say, they have pretty much nothing in common with me policy-wise.

    In 1999 I trained in Saudi with the their version of the Marines - Royal Naval Infantry - or some such, I forget and don't care to look it up. Imagine the Keystone Kops but 10 times worse with real ammo. Their amphibious unit consisted of a motley crew operating old Czech built OT-64 SKOTs, with a hodgepodge of medium to heavy machine guns mounted on top; Soviet, Nato, you name it. Twice that I remember they accidentally discharged their main gun while we weren't even in a live fire exercise, let alone a range. It was no wonder the Saudi royal family was scared to death of Iraq and later Iran. Any semi competent invasion of the country would more than likely be successful.

    Any depiction of the uncovered female is forbidden (Our platoon t-shirt was a cartoon photo of an alligator recusing a mermaid; since the mermaid had a seashell bikini top, we weren't allowed to wear it. ) Then we heard the motto of men in Saudi was "Men are for pleasure, women are for babies." At night the Saudi troops would wander around holding hands with each other.

    The best trained Saudi troops are their national guard, which is their anti-coup force. Lightly equipped, but has higher readiness than their army units and the manpower is derived from the desert tribes.

    If you thought the Saudis made for poor soldiers, you haven’t seen the Kuwaitis. Same incompetence, sloppiness, and cowardice, but with twice the arrogance of the Saudis.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    If you thought the Saudis made for poor soldiers, you haven’t seen the Kuwaitis. Same incompetence, sloppiness, and cowardice, but with twice the arrogance of the Saudis.
     
    I've always thought this was coup insurance. A military competent enough to take on external threats is strong enough to elevate its commander to the throne. Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Libya are cases in point. It's not even unique to the Middle East. My impression is that a good number of Chinese rulers deliberately kept the military under-resourced in order to avoid coup attempts.
  40. @Twinkie

    Dream scenario
     
    Or we could just develop complete energy autarchy and, better yet, become a giant net exporter and make petroleum inexpensive. That's the real dream.

    The USA is a net exporter of refined petroleum and a large exporter of natural gas and NGLs.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    The USA was and remains a net importer:

    https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec1_2.pdf

    A great many of the producers responsible for the surge in tight oil production can never repay their invested capital at current prices.  The whole sector is a scam that would make Ponzi blush.  When it goes down, we will be in a world of hurt.  This could and should have been nipped in the bud by forcing shaky producers to close and raising prices, but bad investments and cheap gas have worked out well for our overlords in the past so why not continue?
  41. @Lot
    The USA is a net exporter of refined petroleum and a large exporter of natural gas and NGLs.

    The USA was and remains a net importer:

    https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec1_2.pdf

    A great many of the producers responsible for the surge in tight oil production can never repay their invested capital at current prices.  The whole sector is a scam that would make Ponzi blush.  When it goes down, we will be in a world of hurt.  This could and should have been nipped in the bud by forcing shaky producers to close and raising prices, but bad investments and cheap gas have worked out well for our overlords in the past so why not continue?

    • Replies: @Lot
    Agree about fraud, or something close to it, in small fracking stocks. This has been going on for at least 10 years, they keep failing, yet investors keep buying shares of new ones.

    Best to stick to the 40 bil+ market cap majors.

    Chesapeake is an example of a pretty big gas company whose stock is down 95%.
  42. @Anonymous
    It's obvious why Republicans and men want Saudi Arabia. They want a white and Christian version of it. If you're a conservative man, and you live in a Saudiesque society, you are treated as a king, simply for being a man. You can permit or deny your daughter to go to university, or find a job. If you allow your wife and daughter to work, you can take all the money they earn. You can marry up to 4 women, but your wives cannot be with other men. You don't even have to worry about your wife or wives cheating on you. They can't even leave the house without you chaperoning them.

    If man is allowed marry four women, that’s good for roughly 25% of men and quite bad for the other 75%.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    It might be necessary to encourage out marriage for men while forbidding it for women. 😉
    , @Lot
    Ultra-orthodox Jews have a man shortage because of their rapid population growth. There are always fewer 24 year old men than 18 year old women, the ideal age for marriage for them.

    The sex ratio of 1.05:1 at birth covers gay men and higher boy mortality, but 1.5% per year pop growth means a 9% size difference in age cohorts six years apart.

    A small polygamy rate would fix this.
  43. @216
    Saudi Arabia is right about women.

    It is funny that the left is kneejerk pro-Muslim while the right allegedly is not, yet it is the American right that likes Saudi Arabia and the left that apparently does not.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    Perhaps this is due to the fact that rightly or wrongly by both in the Left and the Right there is the belief that Saudi Arabia does not work for the interest of the Ummah.
  44. @Not My Economy
    Saudi Arabia is in a mechanical sense our actual Greatest Ally.

    Everything about our modern life is only possible because of dollar hegemony, and Saudi Arabia is basically the lynchpin of that system

    If this goes away, absolute bloodbath

    (Narrator: and it definitely would go away)

    Agree, with a caveat. Saudi Arabia used to be the lynchpin but it’s at risk of losing that status. An oil field gets blown up and… the world in general barely notices and even the oil markets in particular barely noticed.

  45. @Talha

    At night the Saudi troops would wander around holding hands with each other.
     
    OK, but that doesn’t really mean anything. When I was in Egypt it was common for a man to grab hold of your hand to lead you somewhere, like if you wanted him to point you out to a restaurant or bus stop or mosque. I held hands with some men in that kind of situation where we were going to the same destination, didn’t mean anything. Felt a bit weird at first, but then you get used to it since nobody else cares.

    My brother spent some time working in Saudi among Saudi office workers and obviously as a Muslim so they would take him to go out to the desert for things like hunting elephant mice and camp fires. He did mention that he did notice a few of them were communicating some kind of attraction to each other in the office, but in a very low key way, but it wasn’t widespread or ubiquitous.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
    Yeah - it's actually not a big deal there. Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, who has traveled extensively in the Muslim world mentioned how common it is for a friend, when he wants to go somewhere with you, to grab your hand and you go along. I mean, in many of those cultures, sometimes when males meet for the first time or after a while, they kiss each other's cheeks or at least touch cheek-to-cheek on both sides. I had an Egyptian friend whose dad would almost slam his cheek into yours - I always had to brace for it.

    Peace.
  46. @Audacious Epigone

    Yeah – it’s actually not a big deal there. Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, who has traveled extensively in the Muslim world mentioned how common it is for a friend, when he wants to go somewhere with you, to grab your hand and you go along. I mean, in many of those cultures, sometimes when males meet for the first time or after a while, they kiss each other’s cheeks or at least touch cheek-to-cheek on both sides. I had an Egyptian friend whose dad would almost slam his cheek into yours – I always had to brace for it.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
    Also - people have to pay attention to body language among world leaders; these are not guys that dislike or are at odds with each other:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXiSafSqXAY
  47. @Talha
    Yeah - it's actually not a big deal there. Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, who has traveled extensively in the Muslim world mentioned how common it is for a friend, when he wants to go somewhere with you, to grab your hand and you go along. I mean, in many of those cultures, sometimes when males meet for the first time or after a while, they kiss each other's cheeks or at least touch cheek-to-cheek on both sides. I had an Egyptian friend whose dad would almost slam his cheek into yours - I always had to brace for it.

    Peace.

    Also – people have to pay attention to body language among world leaders; these are not guys that dislike or are at odds with each other:

  48. @Audacious Epigone
    If man is allowed marry four women, that's good for roughly 25% of men and quite bad for the other 75%.

    It might be necessary to encourage out marriage for men while forbidding it for women. 😉

  49. @Audacious Epigone
    It is funny that the left is kneejerk pro-Muslim while the right allegedly is not, yet it is the American right that likes Saudi Arabia and the left that apparently does not.

    Perhaps this is due to the fact that rightly or wrongly by both in the Left and the Right there is the belief that Saudi Arabia does not work for the interest of the Ummah.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    I wonder what Talha thinks about that.
  50. @Blinky Bill
    Perhaps this is due to the fact that rightly or wrongly by both in the Left and the Right there is the belief that Saudi Arabia does not work for the interest of the Ummah.

    I wonder what Talha thinks about that.

    • Replies: @Talha
    Saudi Arabia is a net liability for the Ummah in both their actions and in how bad they are for PR for the religion. If they were some tin pot dictatorship or kingdom in some remote area like Brunei, no one would care, but they control the holy sites and have tons of oil and use it to spread their interpretation of Islam everywhere.

    The only leader that has ever been perceived as a positive one outside of that country was King Faisal and he ended up assassinated.

    I’m on record in this thread hoping that they get replaced by a Pakistani and Turkish joint military effort.

    Peace.
  51. @Twinkie
    The best trained Saudi troops are their national guard, which is their anti-coup force. Lightly equipped, but has higher readiness than their army units and the manpower is derived from the desert tribes.

    If you thought the Saudis made for poor soldiers, you haven’t seen the Kuwaitis. Same incompetence, sloppiness, and cowardice, but with twice the arrogance of the Saudis.

    If you thought the Saudis made for poor soldiers, you haven’t seen the Kuwaitis. Same incompetence, sloppiness, and cowardice, but with twice the arrogance of the Saudis.

    I’ve always thought this was coup insurance. A military competent enough to take on external threats is strong enough to elevate its commander to the throne. Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Libya are cases in point. It’s not even unique to the Middle East. My impression is that a good number of Chinese rulers deliberately kept the military under-resourced in order to avoid coup attempts.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I’ve always thought this was coup insurance. A military competent enough to take on external threats is strong enough to elevate its commander to the throne.
     
    Yes, it's an old habit, but one that doesn't die easily. Back in the 60's and 70's, there was this idea of using Western/American-trained foreign military institutions as modernizing forces to develop backward countries, especially those that were garrison states. But even where that idea worked to some degree (such as South Korea), civilian governments had to deal with the threat of coups and actual coups on occasions.

    It’s not even unique to the Middle East.
     
    Dictatorial regimes almost always create competing institutions of armed forces, be they regular army, national guard (or republican guard, Waffen-SS, or what have you), armed police/gendarmerie, intelligence/domestic security units, etc. It's dangerous for armed forces to be centralized particularly in undemocratic societies.
  52. @Audacious Epigone
    I wonder what Talha thinks about that.

    Saudi Arabia is a net liability for the Ummah in both their actions and in how bad they are for PR for the religion. If they were some tin pot dictatorship or kingdom in some remote area like Brunei, no one would care, but they control the holy sites and have tons of oil and use it to spread their interpretation of Islam everywhere.

    The only leader that has ever been perceived as a positive one outside of that country was King Faisal and he ended up assassinated.

    I’m on record in this thread hoping that they get replaced by a Pakistani and Turkish joint military effort.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Excellent, thanks for that.
  53. I posted these survey results on a mainstream political forum to see what reaction it would get. The forum is mostly made up of partisan Dems and Reps who cheerlead for their parties and repeat talking points. I specifically was interested on why Democrats are the most anti-Saudi Arabia demographic. Here is their response in a nutshell.

    Republicans: Iran is the worst country in the world. Saudi Arabia is their enemy so the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Besides Saudi get along with Israel which is a plus.

    Democrats: Islam isn’t bad in itself but Saudi Arabia’s version of it is awful. Of course we don’t like them, besides Trump is friends with them and sells them weapons which makes us like them even less.

    • Replies: @Talha
    That sounds along the lines of what I would have guessed for Republicans. Makes sense what the Democrats say for their reasoning, but I hadn’t factored in the Trump-likes-them-so-they-must-eevul card.

    Peace.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    And thanks for that!
  54. @Jay Fink
    I posted these survey results on a mainstream political forum to see what reaction it would get. The forum is mostly made up of partisan Dems and Reps who cheerlead for their parties and repeat talking points. I specifically was interested on why Democrats are the most anti-Saudi Arabia demographic. Here is their response in a nutshell.

    Republicans: Iran is the worst country in the world. Saudi Arabia is their enemy so the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Besides Saudi get along with Israel which is a plus.

    Democrats: Islam isn't bad in itself but Saudi Arabia's version of it is awful. Of course we don't like them, besides Trump is friends with them and sells them weapons which makes us like them even less.

    That sounds along the lines of what I would have guessed for Republicans. Makes sense what the Democrats say for their reasoning, but I hadn’t factored in the Trump-likes-them-so-they-must-eevul card.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
    So many times on this forum the Democrats come across as nasty, mean and over defensive. Yet on the issue of Saudi Arabia they actually had some well reasoned thoughts...although it was partly influenced by Trump hatred.
  55. @Talha
    That sounds along the lines of what I would have guessed for Republicans. Makes sense what the Democrats say for their reasoning, but I hadn’t factored in the Trump-likes-them-so-they-must-eevul card.

    Peace.

    So many times on this forum the Democrats come across as nasty, mean and over defensive. Yet on the issue of Saudi Arabia they actually had some well reasoned thoughts…although it was partly influenced by Trump hatred.

    • Replies: @Talha
    That is surprising actually - most of the time I deal with that side, much of their arguments come down to emotion.

    The one issue I can see immediately is that all the Democratic administrations have also made money hand over fist through arms sales to the Saudis so singling out Trump seems silly.

    Peace.

  56. @Jay Fink
    So many times on this forum the Democrats come across as nasty, mean and over defensive. Yet on the issue of Saudi Arabia they actually had some well reasoned thoughts...although it was partly influenced by Trump hatred.

    That is surprising actually – most of the time I deal with that side, much of their arguments come down to emotion.

    The one issue I can see immediately is that all the Democratic administrations have also made money hand over fist through arms sales to the Saudis so singling out Trump seems silly.

    Peace.

    • Agree: Jay Fink
  57. @Mr. Rational
    The USA was and remains a net importer:

    https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec1_2.pdf

    A great many of the producers responsible for the surge in tight oil production can never repay their invested capital at current prices.  The whole sector is a scam that would make Ponzi blush.  When it goes down, we will be in a world of hurt.  This could and should have been nipped in the bud by forcing shaky producers to close and raising prices, but bad investments and cheap gas have worked out well for our overlords in the past so why not continue?

    Agree about fraud, or something close to it, in small fracking stocks. This has been going on for at least 10 years, they keep failing, yet investors keep buying shares of new ones.

    Best to stick to the 40 bil+ market cap majors.

    Chesapeake is an example of a pretty big gas company whose stock is down 95%.

  58. @Audacious Epigone
    If man is allowed marry four women, that's good for roughly 25% of men and quite bad for the other 75%.

    Ultra-orthodox Jews have a man shortage because of their rapid population growth. There are always fewer 24 year old men than 18 year old women, the ideal age for marriage for them.

    The sex ratio of 1.05:1 at birth covers gay men and higher boy mortality, but 1.5% per year pop growth means a 9% size difference in age cohorts six years apart.

    A small polygamy rate would fix this.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Every eighth man getting an extra wife isn't quite each man being able to take four, though!
  59. @Johann Ricke

    If you thought the Saudis made for poor soldiers, you haven’t seen the Kuwaitis. Same incompetence, sloppiness, and cowardice, but with twice the arrogance of the Saudis.
     
    I've always thought this was coup insurance. A military competent enough to take on external threats is strong enough to elevate its commander to the throne. Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Libya are cases in point. It's not even unique to the Middle East. My impression is that a good number of Chinese rulers deliberately kept the military under-resourced in order to avoid coup attempts.

    I’ve always thought this was coup insurance. A military competent enough to take on external threats is strong enough to elevate its commander to the throne.

    Yes, it’s an old habit, but one that doesn’t die easily. Back in the 60’s and 70’s, there was this idea of using Western/American-trained foreign military institutions as modernizing forces to develop backward countries, especially those that were garrison states. But even where that idea worked to some degree (such as South Korea), civilian governments had to deal with the threat of coups and actual coups on occasions.

    It’s not even unique to the Middle East.

    Dictatorial regimes almost always create competing institutions of armed forces, be they regular army, national guard (or republican guard, Waffen-SS, or what have you), armed police/gendarmerie, intelligence/domestic security units, etc. It’s dangerous for armed forces to be centralized particularly in undemocratic societies.

  60. @Talha
    Saudi Arabia is a net liability for the Ummah in both their actions and in how bad they are for PR for the religion. If they were some tin pot dictatorship or kingdom in some remote area like Brunei, no one would care, but they control the holy sites and have tons of oil and use it to spread their interpretation of Islam everywhere.

    The only leader that has ever been perceived as a positive one outside of that country was King Faisal and he ended up assassinated.

    I’m on record in this thread hoping that they get replaced by a Pakistani and Turkish joint military effort.

    Peace.

    Excellent, thanks for that.

  61. @Jay Fink
    I posted these survey results on a mainstream political forum to see what reaction it would get. The forum is mostly made up of partisan Dems and Reps who cheerlead for their parties and repeat talking points. I specifically was interested on why Democrats are the most anti-Saudi Arabia demographic. Here is their response in a nutshell.

    Republicans: Iran is the worst country in the world. Saudi Arabia is their enemy so the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Besides Saudi get along with Israel which is a plus.

    Democrats: Islam isn't bad in itself but Saudi Arabia's version of it is awful. Of course we don't like them, besides Trump is friends with them and sells them weapons which makes us like them even less.

    And thanks for that!

  62. @Lot
    Ultra-orthodox Jews have a man shortage because of their rapid population growth. There are always fewer 24 year old men than 18 year old women, the ideal age for marriage for them.

    The sex ratio of 1.05:1 at birth covers gay men and higher boy mortality, but 1.5% per year pop growth means a 9% size difference in age cohorts six years apart.

    A small polygamy rate would fix this.

    Every eighth man getting an extra wife isn’t quite each man being able to take four, though!

    • Replies: @Talha
    That's really not how it works in practice though. The legal ability to have four wives does not equal the ability to acquire and afford them; just like it is legal for me to screw fifty supermodels, but...yeah...good luck with that one. Polygamy, like concubinage, is not something within the reach of most men in the world that have a hard time providing for one set of wife and kids. It's actually meant to keep men like Andrew Tate or Wilt Chamberlain limited in their conquests.

    Imagine that all these alphas/chads going around screwing 100+women can only take 4 maximum (as opposed to simple polygamy which has no limits) out from the pool AND they are on the hook for providing and caring for them and any kids.

    Peace.
  63. @Audacious Epigone
    Every eighth man getting an extra wife isn't quite each man being able to take four, though!

    That’s really not how it works in practice though. The legal ability to have four wives does not equal the ability to acquire and afford them; just like it is legal for me to screw fifty supermodels, but…yeah…good luck with that one. Polygamy, like concubinage, is not something within the reach of most men in the world that have a hard time providing for one set of wife and kids. It’s actually meant to keep men like Andrew Tate or Wilt Chamberlain limited in their conquests.

    Imagine that all these alphas/chads going around screwing 100+women can only take 4 maximum (as opposed to simple polygamy which has no limits) out from the pool AND they are on the hook for providing and caring for them and any kids.

    Peace.

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