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The percentages of people, by selected demographic characteristics, who describe those who display American flags on their homes or vehicles as “racist”:

One-in-five “very liberal” people view the American flag as a racist symbol, as do one-in-eight blacks and one-in-nine people under the age of 35.

The stars and stripes haven’t suffered the same fate as the Union Jack yet. But the stars and bars are done and dusted, the Gadsden flag is under siege, and even the Betsy Ross flag is in trouble. It’s on the radar.

 
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  1. The “Conservative” who believes the display of the American flag is ‘racist’ must be Republicans-in-Name-Only like Ana Navarro.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  2. Anon[383] • Disclaimer says:

    An interesting attribute of the post-modern, post-national West is the way it looks at national flags. On the one hand, the national flag is simply the flag of the state. There’s nothing harmful about that, from the perspective of the state. Yet a national flag is also a symbol of a nation, its people, its values. As time goes on, the interests of the state and the nation become irreconcilable. Thus, context starts to completely distort the meaning of flags. The American flag flown in rural Tennessee comes to have the opposite meaning of the American flag flown over the US Embassy. There’s a paradoxical effect where private flag flying is increasingly seen as a symbol of rebellion, whereas state, properly curated flag flying is seen as symbol of unity and obedience. The state doesn’t have the guts to create a new flag, since it knows obedience to the modern state rests almost solely on inertia, so flag waving becomes a bigoted act when committed by the wrong people, and a progressive act of tolerance when practiced by the right people. As with all acts in modernity, flag waving becomes a question of “who, whom”.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Thanks: Catdog, Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Jackbnimble
  3. unit472 says:

    After 9/11 my employer, a municipal utility of a largely black run city, gave us magnetic US flags to adorn our vehicles with. I wasn’t impressed as it was the new American ideal of diversity and inclusion that allowed towel heads in hijacked jets to fly into our buildings. We should celebrate and want more Muslim immigrants which is precisely what we got under this strange new ideology? Even when we waged war against terrorism we only managed to bring even more terrorists back into the US. An Afghan who murdered 50 people in an Orlando nightclub. An Palestinian who, pretending to be an Army major, starts shooting his fellow soldiers at Ft. Hood. A restaurant health inspector in San Bernardino who opens fire on his fellow county workers at Christmas event and, most recently, a Syrian refugee who murders 10 at a Boulder grocery store.

    No, I don’t want this and its damned hard to feel patriotic towards a government that allows it.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  4. I might be one of these on the far right who opposes flying the american flag pretty soon. Fly one and an army flag on my front porch and have for years but this country’s gotten so ridiculous I’m thinking of taking it down. Probably wouldn’t join the army anymore either, would fight for my home and neighborhood but not so much for our nation anymore

  5. Heh. The uptick among “very conservative” respondents is probably nothing but a random statistical fluctuation, but I wonder if a few of them are saying, “Racists with flags on their pickups? Gun racks, too! Heck, yeah!”

    Incidentally, not to disparage the poller, but the poll’s racist is a stupid word.

  6. I took our flag down when the election was stolen. This is not my country anymore, and I will not fly its flag anymore.

  7. I hope Biden changes the flag with two more states so that the Twitter libs and mega corps can unperson all the icky conservatives with a 50-star old whory. Trump 2020 voters need to have every facet of their lives become hate crimes and/or FBI monitored offenses. Especially having the flag on their lawn or house.

    They will roll over and take it up the ass like always, the faggots.

    • Agree: JohnPlywood
    • Troll: HammerJack
    • Replies: @Firefinga
    , @Buzz Mohawk
  8. Firefinga says:
    @Supply and Demand

    Biden should change it to the new now official state ideology, namely the Rainbow-Flag. After all, you get prosecuted if you desecreate the holy Rainbowflag, but not in case you burn Stars-and-Stripes.

    • Replies: @Oswald Spengler
  9. @Supply and Demand

    What are you doing about it?

    Is this you, buddy, the great internet hero?:

    • Replies: @Supply and Demand
  10. @Buzz Mohawk

    I give my classes free time to target anti-China social media posts by Americans retarded enough not to post anonymously and compose letters accusing them of racism to employers for extra credit. It’s how I keep the politically connected but hyper nationalist failsons engaged.

    As far as me doing anything in America, why would I? The woke mil will be doing that to you soon.

  11. Nodwink says:

    even the Betsy Ross flag is in trouble

  12. Dr. Doom says:

    That “civic nationalism” is as fake as all of “diversity”.
    However, this says that these people believe Americans are White.

    Racist is just blood libel against White Heterosexual Males.

    • Agree: 216
  13. @unit472

    Well, you’re dumb.

    Terrorism and violent crime have been decreasing for decades. Diversity is reducing crime and terrorism in the USA.

    Vast majority of terrorist incidents in Europe have been perpetrated by Irish and Basque separatists against their own people, as well.

    White conservatives are the true terrorists.

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
  14. Tweets from 2015:

  15. dfordoom says: • Website

    People who wrap themselves in the flag (any flag) do tend to be rather unpleasant. Mindless patriotism is not a good thing.

    I find Australians who display the Australian flag to be on the whole a rather unpleasant lot.

    And yes, often they really are both racist and depressingly unintelligent.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  16. neutral says:

    A lot of countries want the rainbow flag as their new official state flag. Since they can’t all have the same they can do something similar to the British empire and put a little rainbow flag inside a bigger flag, like they did with the Australia/South Africa/New Zealand/etc flags.

    • Replies: @Anon
  17. Dumbo says:

    Aesthetically, I like the Confederate flag, it’s even nicer than the U.S. flag. When I was a child, it was not racist at all, so this development is really very recent.

    Even the Nazi flag, is it racist? Flags or flag-wavers are not racist in themselves, so I don’t see the big deal. Lots of people seem to mistake a symbol for reality.

    The only hateful and odious flag is the gay rainbow flag, because it ruined rainbows forever.

    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @anon
    , @Wency
  18. @dfordoom

    I find Australians who display the Australian flag to be on the whole a rather unpleasant lot.

    The crucial difference is that Australians have a monarch. A lot of Australians might be grumpy about the monarch, but they still have one. To fill the monarch’s sentimental role, all Americans have is the flag.

    No significant distinction separates love of country from love of the flag in the United States. Without the flag, Americans have no tangible symbol upon which to fall back.

    The beauty of the flag is that she never lets the citizen down. She has no royal family except her own 50 stars. No Meghan Markle materializes to distract one’s view of her. Stars and Stripes Forever.


    • Replies: @nokangaroos
    , @dfordoom
  19. AP says:

    More very conservatives than conservatives consider the American flag to be racist. Are those “very conservatives” very conservative Muslims?

    • Replies: @RSDB
  20. I think a better title for this article would’ve been: ‘Red, Racist and Blue’.

    Got it?

  21. @V. K. Ovelund

    “Allegiance to the rag” as expression of lack of a nation is prolly correct.
    In Europe, waving the flag except on certain occasions is considered gauche
    marking you as an insecure recent arrival.

    I fail to see what should be “racist” about it …
    it´s not even a “political” statement.

    • Replies: @Wency
    , @V. K. Ovelund
    , @A123
  22. Wency says:
    @nokangaroos

    Europe’s hesitancy to fly the flag is, I think, a marker of Europe’s lack of national self-confidence. Back when nationalism was in vogue, Europeans did fly their national flags with pride. There’s that timeless video of some German politician waving a little German flag and Merkel snatches it from him and tosses it away as she gives him a stern look of disapproval.

    I don’t fly the flag, as I don’t want to embrace what America has become and I want my children to grow up emphasizing a number of other identities ahead of their American identity. But I’d also prefer to live in a place where people can fly the national flag with pride and the Merkels of the world aren’t there to wag their fingers. The fact that flying the American flag is becoming an embarrassment is itself an embarrassment.

  23. @nokangaroos

    In Europe, waving the flag except on certain occasions is considered gauche….

    No offense is meant to Europeans. Europe is home to proud nations whose histories are epic.

    However, in the matter of flags, is there a reason Americans should care what Europeans do?

    Americans have never cared, before.

    • Replies: @216
  24. A123 says:
    @nokangaroos

    If it is gauche, why do Irish soccer fans spend so much time waving flags for non-countries?

    Is there some special rule that states waving flags for anti-Semitic hate is OK?

    Or, are the Irish some sort of double-underclass that cannot even wave their own flag successfully?

    PEACE 😇
     

  25. Utterly OT, and I apologise, but I see that the world’s worst commenting software, Disqus, has shut down commenting at Frontpagemag, because

    It has come to our attention that your site is included in the Hate Groups listed on the Southern Poverty Law Center Hate Map

    Maybe Ron will offer his excellent commenting software.

  26. anon[712] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dumbo

    Someone should create a new flag that would be made up of everything the liberals hate, maybe a confederate flage with little swastikas all over it.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  27. 216 says: • Website
    @V. K. Ovelund

    However, in the matter of flags, is there a reason Americans should care what Europeans do?

    Americans have never cared, before.

    American elites do care what Europeans do.

    There is an ingrained sense still that Western Europe in particular is “older and wiser”, and more “culturally refined” compared to boorish American conservatives.

    On most cultural matters, the average white American conservative is closer to the average Russian or Chinese, than they are to their white liberal fellow citizens and Western European co-racialists.

    In Australia the liberals have this saying of “cultural cringe”, where some are seen to “suck up to Britain”. We don’t have similar term, but we do have a similar behavior.

    Of course, much of this interpretation of West Europe is based on tourism, or on transnational elites.

    Atypical for sausagefests like this, consider the fashion industry. The biggest cities in fashion, after New York, are all in Europe. The fashion press was historically cultivated by the CIA, just as they cultivated the “non-communist left” in Europe.

    While fashion in this sense is primarily an elite activity, women across the economic strata appear to follow this.

  28. @JohnPlywood

    You’re right. It’s criminal our elites are taking their best. They should let them keep them, as a (global) civically minded nation. Cognitive Imperialism is a dastardly thing.

    • Agree: Sollipsist
    • Replies: @Sollipsist
  29. @A123

    Hey, that’s great.

    Where can I get a Palestinian flag?

    Question: do you even believe that the Palestinians are human? As for me, I am acquainted with too few Palestinians to have formed an opinion of their national character (the one or two I happen slightly to know are admittedly not very engaging), but the endless media aspersions that invite one to think of them as vermin are a bit much.

    • Replies: @A123
  30. dfordoom says: • Website
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I find Australians who display the Australian flag to be on the whole a rather unpleasant lot.

    The crucial difference is that Australians have a monarch. A lot of Australians might be grumpy about the monarch, but they still have one. To fill the monarch’s sentimental role, all Americans have is the flag.

    Yes, that’s true.

    Nation states are fundamentally artificial things. In order to survive they have to create a sense of nationalism and nationalism on the whole is not a good thing. It’s an ideology, just like communism or liberalism, and nationalism requires constant propaganda to keep it going.

    It is natural to feel loyalty and affection for family. It is natural to feel affection for your home town or for the local area or community in which you grew up. I can perfectly understand Yorkshiremen having a sentimental attachment to Yorkshire, or New Yorkers having a sentimental attachment to New York, or Bavarians having a sentimental attachment to Bavaria.

    But nation states are artificial non-organic entities and people have to be manipulated into feeling a sense of attachment to them.

    Flags are propaganda. All flags are propaganda. The Rainbow Flag is propaganda, the EU flag is propaganda, the Australian flag is propaganda.

    Monarchies and flags are useful things for creating loyalty to artificial nation states like the United Kingdom (the United Kingdom is simply the English Empire and the Union Flag is propaganda to create an artificial sense of loyalty among the subject peoples of the English).

    True patriotism should be local, not national. True patriotism should be based on a shared history and a shared culture. Americans (and Canadians and Belgians and Australians) don’t have a shared culture and they never did.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Dumbo
    , @Mark G.
  31. A123 says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    The non-Palestinian descendants of Muhammad’s Jihad have occupied Christian & Jewish Palestine for over 1,400 years.

    Question: do you even believe that the Palestinians are human?

    Of course, non-Palestinian Muslims are human. They are victims of the Muslim pillar of Jihad. They did not ask to be born the descendants of Colonial Jihadist land thieves and occupiers.

    Among the worst Islamic crimes is tagging non-Palestinian Muslims as “Palestinian”.

    How many Muslims were present in Palestine in:
    — 400 BC?
    — 200 BC?
    — 0 BC/AD?
    — 200 AD?
    — 400 AD?
    The correct answer is ZERO.

    Non-Palestinian Islam arrived via violent Jihad against native Palestinians ~600 AD. You have better odds of finding Halal Pork than an authentic Palestinian Muslim.

    The obvious and non-controversial answer to the non-Palestinian Muslim occupation of Judea & Samaria is straightforward. Give non-Palestinian Muslims an honorable and compensated way to end the Jihadi colonization via a Right To Return to the Islamic homeland of their faith.

    Palestinian Christians will continue us to suffer at the hands of Muslims organizations like Fatah & Iranian al’Hamas as long as the Non-Palestinian occupation of Palestine continues. Even if you cannot find it in your heart to care about Jewish victims of Islam, the Christian victims of Jihad cry out for your support.

    Perhaps Palestinian Jews and Christians will fight each other when the threat of Islam ends. However, I doubt it. Jews are not interested key New Testament sites such as Gesthemane and Galgotha.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @Yahya K.
  32. @A123

    This looks more like an expression of philo-semitism
    (the Palestinians being far more semitic and indigenous than their overlords –
    ain´t genetics grand?).
    The Irish can relate to being an occupied people (if slightly overdone)
    so yes, it´s a class thingy.

  33. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    Nation states are fundamentally artificial things.

    So are all cultural creations.

    True patriotism should be local, not national.

    And you have the original tablets sent down from Mt. Sinai to show us so that we can also believe?

  34. Anon[615] • Disclaimer says:
    @neutral

    The nickname of the new South African (since 1994) flag is Winny Mandela’s bath towel. It does not have a British flag on it, it does however have a triangle which is shared by some of the most obnoxious regimes in the world. Cuba to name but one

  35. @A123

    How many Muslims were present in Palestine in:
    — 400 BC?
    — 200 BC?
    — 0 BC/AD?
    — 200 AD?
    — 400 AD?
    The correct answer is ZERO.

    I. Don’t. Care. And neither should you.

    Sounds like a problem for the Israelis. Obviously, I am unsympathetic.

    The number of Muslims who have successfully infiltrated and commandeered American institutions for the purpose of deconstructing our nation is hardly more than ZERO. Muslims in the mass aggregate may not be especially good for the United States, but meanwhile, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    Get me that Palestinian flag. I mean to wave it.

    • Replies: @A123
  36. A123 says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Do you believe that Palestinian Christians are human?

    Why would you wave a flag that stands for a Death to Christians?

    Why do you hate the followers of Jesus?

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @Yahya K.
  37. RSDB says:
    @AP

    Maybe they think the flag is racist and that that’s a good thing? Maybe they’re trolling?

    It’s a difference of something like 2 or 3 or so people vs. 4 or so people; I doubt it’s that meaningful.

  38. @anon

    How about the stars and bars, but with the St. Andrews cross replaced by a swastika? Orange field with a navy blue swastika with white stars…

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  39. @Chrisnonymous

    Also, when the US splits up, the Red State Confederacy should do everything it can just to piss off Blue Staters and keep them from coming in. For example, all customs and immigration, TSA, and border guards should wear white klansmen hoods and robes.

  40. Wency says:
    @Dumbo

    The only hateful and odious flag is the gay rainbow flag, because it ruined rainbows forever.

    Whatever happened to Honkler? Good effort, at least. I enjoyed him.

    But I am certain that if anything in this world is the work of the Devil, it’s that rainbow flag. Its creators took a beautiful natural phenomenon and a symbol of God’s grace and mercy, and they made it forever into an idolatrous symbol of perversion. And they didn’t just *create* the flag, they put the full power of the largest economy on Earth behind it, saturated the world marketing it, so that no one anywhere could fail to make the association.

    • Replies: @Dumbo
  41. @A123

    A tit-for-tat attitude on my part would be impolite (and I was the one who provoked the debate, anyway), so by your leave, I shall just answer your questions without further argument, and leave it at that.

    Do you believe that Palestinian Christians are human?

    Yes, I do.

    Why would you wave a flag that stands for a Death to Christians?

    I would not.

    Why do you hate the followers of Jesus?

    This question does not require an answer.

    • Thanks: A123
  42. Dumbo says:
    @Wency

    so that no one anywhere could fail to make the association.

    I remember visiting a famous Scandinavian capital a few years ago and seeing rainbow flags everywhere (even in churches). They looked like the flags of an occupying army.

    And if you think about it, they really were.

    And they are everywhere across the former Western World (and perhaps not only).

    Rainbow flags are really the occupation flags of Globalistan.

  43. Dumbo says:
    @dfordoom

    Nation states are fundamentally artificial things

    For hundreds of years, Germany and Italy were not unified countries, in Italy different regions belonged to different kingdoms or were independent, and yet, this didn’t stop people to call all of them “Italians.” People, culture and language are indeed more important than a mere geographical entity, especially if it contains different groups of people. Blood lasts longer than soil.

    True patriotism should be local, not national.

    Maybe, but that’s not very easy in this globalized age of empires. We are all Globalistan citizens now.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  44. Mark G. says:
    @dfordoom

    It is natural to feel loyalty and affection for family. It is natural to feel affection for your home town or for the local area or community in which you grew up.

    When I was a child my parents took me over to a cemetery in the small town of Metcalfe, Illinois where four generations of my ancestors were buried. My grandfather not only grew up in that town but all his ancestors going back a hundred years had too. It would be likely that people in that situation would feel a sense of attachment to a place where their ancestors had lived for generations.

    That small town world is largely gone now. It depended on having lots of people engaged in farming in the surrounding area and the introduction of farm machinery like tractors ended it. Most people now live in large cities and move a lot and each generation has a more tenuous attachment to a particular location. It’s unfortunate if people feel more attachment to the nation than their state and city since Washington D.C. is now enemy controlled territory and the only resistance to it is coming from state and city governments.

    We have people moving here to Indiana from places like California who immediately start in complaining about how culturally conservative this state is. I want to say “go back please go back” but being a polite Hoosier I remain silent. I really like the idea that different states have different political and cultural environments and people still have at least some choice about being able to live where like minded people are around them and the local and state government is not hostile to their values.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  45. Yahya K. says:
    @A123

    How many Muslims were present in Palestine in:
    — 400 BC?
    — 200 BC?
    — 0 BC/AD?
    — 200 AD?
    — 400 AD?
    The correct answer is ZERO.

    Let’s throw this back at you.

    How many Ashkenazi Jews were present in Palestine in:
    — 400 BC?
    — 200 BC?
    — 0 BC/AD?
    — 200 AD?
    — 400 AD?

    The correct answer is ZERO.

    Ashkenazi Jews are a peculiar product of the past thousand years of migration and miscegenation between a Middle Eastern population and Southern Europeans. They did not exist in 400 BC to 400 AD. They are genetically half-Middle Eastern, and half-European – which is a peculiar combination that didn’t exist before 0 AD. That doesn’t mean Ashkenazim can’t trace back their ancestry to the original Jews living in Palestine, but they are not genetically the same.

    Levantine Arabs, both Muslim and Christian, can not only trace their ancestry back to the original Canaanites, but are far closer genetically to the Canaanites than are the Ashkenazi hybrids. Here’s Razib Khan on the genetic study that established continuity between the Canaanites and the modern-day Arab inhabitants of Lebanon and Palestine: https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/05/26/the-canaanites-walk-among-us/.

    This seems to establish basic continuity between the Bronze Age and the modern period. Totally unsurprising. Remember that Italy exhibits deep population structure that dates back to at least 2,000 years ago, and probably earlier. It is likely that much of the same applies to the Near East. Though looking at Muslim populations one can see minor and non-trivial contributions of populations which moved in after Islam (Sub-Saharan and East Asia segments are clear signs of slavery impacting Muslims that would not apply to ethno-religious minorities), most of the ancestry broadly is deeply rooted back to antiquity.

    Arab Muslims can trace most of their ancestry (~90%) back to antiquity, and have slight traces (~10%) of exotic elements like Turkish, Caucasian, sub-Saharan and East Asian. Arab Christians in the area are also 85-90% Canaanite in stock, and about 10-15% Indo-European (admixture from Mitanni rulers). Meanwhile, Ashkenzi Jews are only 50% Middle Eastern and the other 50% Southern European.

    [MORE]

    Non-Palestinian Islam arrived via violent Jihad against native Palestinians ~600 AD.

    Islam is a religion, not a race. The vast majority of Islam’s adherents today are converts from all other religions including Judaism, Christianity, Paganism, Hinduism etc. You do not need to be a desert Arab, nor trace your descent to Arabia, to be a Muslim. This is not Judaism.

    Desert Arabs did not have the numbers to genetically replace any pre-existing population they conquered; whether it is in Egypt or Palestine, Syria or Persia; for the simple fact that the desert of Arabia has always been sparsely populated due to the harsh living conditions found therein (this is especially true in the pre-modern era). Nor did the Arabs even try to replace these populations. Frequently they just garrisoned a few thousand troops in the major centers and kept to themselves. Arabization and Islamization of Egypt and the Levant was a cultural and religious transformation, not genetic. Here’s Razib Khan: https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2009/12/09/ashkenazi-jews-are-middle-eastern-european-hybrids/

    Many of the Palestinians are likely of original Jewish or Samaritan origin, though I would guess that they were likely at least nominally Christianized during the Byzantine persecutions of the 6th century.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2011/01/17/the-assyrians-and-jews-3000-years-of-common-history/

    Even though the majority of the population of the core Middle Eastern nation is descended from the peoples of antiquity, they now consider themselves by and large Arab.

    You can see this visibly just by taking a quick look at the phenotypic differences between Egyptians, Levantines and Arabians. Anyone who is familiar with the Middle East know that desert Arabs (Saudis, Emiratis, Yemenis etc.) look different and are easily distinguishable from Egyptians and Levantines. For example, here’s a sampling of Saudi Arabians:

    Notice the darker hues.

    Here are Syrians:

    Notice the lighter hues and the differing facial features.

    Here are Palestinians (Christian and Muslim):

    They are similar to Syrians.

    Here are Egyptians:

    Totally different than both Levantines and Saudi Arabians.

    And if you look at a PCA, you’ll see they cluster differently. Syrians, Palestinians, Jordanians and Lebanese cluster together. Saudis and Bedouins are distinct and plot lower on the PCA than Levantines.

    They are not the same.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  46. Yahya K. says:
    @A123

    Do you believe that Palestinian Christians are human?

    Why would you wave a flag that stands for a Death to Christians?

    Idiotic propaganda from a Hasbara troll.

    Arab Christians are deeply loyal Palestinians and have been ever since the day the altar of hell known as Israel was foisted upon them by the Ottomans and the British. You can just read the works of Edward Said, who is a Palestinian Christian, to see why that is. Or you can look at what happened to them when the Zionists drove them out of their homes and ethnically cleansed them alongside the Palestine Muslim population to make way for the Jewish State. Here is historian Benny Morris – who happens to be one of your own (an Israeli and a Zionist) – describing the demographic facts in his book Righteous Victims:

    According to various estimates, in 1914 Palestine had 657,000 Muslim inhabitants (including 7,000 Druze), 81,000 Christians, and 60,000 Jews; in 1918 there were 618,000 Muslims, 70,000 Christians, and some 59,000 Jews.71 This drop was due to both privations and expulsions. “For the majority of the Arabs of the Ottoman Empire, World War I was a time of cruel hardship and unrelieved distress. For the Arabs of Palestine the war was doubly disastrous,” wrote historian Samir M. Seikaly.72

    By 1939, there were 1,070,000 Arabs (950,000 of them Muslims) and 460,000 Jews in Palestine. The Arabs declined from more than 82 percent of the population in 1931 to less than 70 percent in 1939.11 Arab fears of an eventual Jewish majority sharpened. As Ben-Gurion began to state openly: “There is a fundamental conflict. We and they want the same thing. We both want Palestine.” And, he explained, for once looking at things from the Arab perspective: “Were I an Arab … I would rise up against immigration liable sometime in the future to hand the country … over to Jewish rule. What Arab cannot do his math and understand that immigration at the rate of 60,000 a year means a Jewish state in all Palestine?”12

    And the formation of Muslim-Christian Levantine associations in the early days of the conflict to combat the ongoing seizure of their land by the Zionist settlers:

    After the November 2, 1918, Balfour Day parade in Jewish Jerusalem, more than one hundred Muslim and Christian notables, headed by Musa Kazim al-Husseini, Jerusalem’s mayor, handed Storrs a petition that stated: “We have noticed yesterday a large crowd of Jews carrying banners and over-running the streets shouting words which hurt the feelings and wound the soul. They pretend with open voice that Palestine, which is the Holy Land of our fathers and the graveyard of our ancestors, which has been inhabited by the Arabs for long ages, who loved it and died in defending it, is now a national home for them.”117 A similar petition was submitted by the Jaffa Muslim-Christian Association.

    New Muslim-Christian associations sprang up elsewhere in the country. Soon federated in a national framework, in January 1919 they held the “First Palestine National Congress,” which supported the incorporation of Palestine into Syria, which the participants expected would shortly emerge as a fully independent Arab state.

    Even today, Palestinian Christians, who are suffering under the jackboot of the Israeli occupation of their homeland, are loyal and patriotic to the Palestinian cause:

    So the next time you go spouting your idiotic Hasbara “muh Judeo-Christian” nonsense, you just remember what you did to the Palestinian Christians who are far more native to the Holy Land than any Jew settler who stole it from them and ethnically cleansed them of it to make way for the Jewish State.

    • Replies: @A123
    , @iffen
  47. It may be different where you live, but I see the US flag as a sign that there’s a gas station coming up on the next corner.

    • Replies: @Wency
  48. @Mark G.

    We have people moving here to Indiana from places like California who immediately start in complaining about how culturally conservative this state is.

    What is wrong with those people, anyway? They screw up the place from which they came so badly that they give up that sunny California weather to escape to tell you how to live.

    They should just don clown noses. It would be more subtle.

    [MORE]

    If you are from California and feel that you must move to Indiana, then here is how to do it:

    1. Do not buy the largest house in the neighborhood, even if you can afford it.

    2. Do not build a new house until you’ve lived in Indiana two years and know what Hoosiers expect normal houses to look like.

    3. Remove all bumper stickers from your car before you move in. If the car is a foreign luxury model, trade it in for a Buick or such.

    4. Remove all signage from everything, with one exception: paint your last name neatly on your mailbox so that the neighbors know who you are.

    5. Unless they’re related, avoid other California expatriates.

    6. During grass season, mow your lawn on Saturday mornings. The neighbors will be out mowing theirs. (Don’t start noisy work until they do.) They’ll talk to you and probe you with some questions. Keep your answers short. Listen twice as much as you talk. Say nothing about California if you can help it. Think nothing about California if you can help it. When the neighbor tells you her new grandbaby’s name, the first chance you get, duck inside and write the name down. Don’t forget the name, and don’t turn the occasion into a self-centered opportunity to talk about your own grandbaby.

    7. Attend the local church. Dress well. Remain silent unless spoken to, and then be brief. Especially, do not offer observations or propound theories during Sunday school.

    8. Don’t fly Indiana’s flag, a military flag, or any other flag. Your neighbors can do that; you can’t.

    9. Don’t try to adopt the local accent. That’s phony. However, do work on improving your standard American accent. (No, the California accent is not standard.)

    10. Bake cookies once a month or so. Send your children to deliver them to your nearest neighbors.

    11. If the neighbor mentions that he’s leaving town, if you have gotten to know him well enough, politely offer to take care of his animals while he’s away. Follow through.

    12. Vote in local elections but, unless the candidate happens to be the aforementioned neighbor, express no open opinion regarding the election. No signs in the front yard. Ever.

    13. If one of your neighbor turns out to be a jerk, suck it up. Avoid reacting. The local Hoosiers already have their opinions regarding the neighbor in question (for they’ve probably known him since elementary school): they don’t want yours.

    14. When invited to a church social or other local event for the second time, show up early to set up chairs. Stay late to wash dishes and sweep floors. Don’t ask a lot of attention-getting questions about how you can help, but just make yourself busy with the menial work: no one is likely to object if you grab the broom and just start using it.

    15. Family vacations to visit your kin still stuck in Calfornia are fine. Your neighbors will think that normal. However, when you get back to Indiana, let your excited children tell the tales without your help.

    16. Attend the school-board meeting if you wish, but dress decently and keep your mouth shut.

    17. In general, keep your California ways (to the extent to which you have not abandoned them) hidden inside the four walls of your home.

    18. If you cannot be happy living according to points 1 through 17, then stay in California. If you can be happy, though, then you might find Indiana a pleasant place. Indianans are remarkably decent people on the whole.

    There’s a reason you moved from California to Indiana. Don’t lie to yourself about it. If the Hoosiers want your advice (they don’t), they’ll ask for it (they won’t, and if they do, you shouldn’t give it, anyway).

    • Thanks: Mark G.
  49. A123 says:
    @Yahya K.

    There is no such thing as Palestinian Muslim.

    As I 100% proved, and you failed to counter, the Non-Palestinian religion of Islam foreign to the region. To adopt a non-Palestinian faith is to no longer be a Palestinian.

    Here is an older summary of Muslim crimes against Palestinian Christians that is well written. I can find more current articles if you would like, but the situation has not materially changed in decades: (1)

    Palestinian Crimes against Christian Arabs and Their Manipulation against Israel

    Under the Palestinian regime Christian Arabs have been victims of frequent human rights abuses by Muslims. There are many examples of intimidation, beatings, land theft, firebombing of churches and other Christian institutions, denial of employment, economic boycotts, torture, kidnapping, forced marriage, sexual harassment, and extortion. Palestinian Authority (PA) officials are directly responsible for many of the human rights violations. Muslims who have converted to Christianity are in the greatest danger. They are often left defenseless against cruelty by Muslim fundamentalists. Some have been murdered.

    The human rights violations against the Christian Arabs in the disputed territories are committed by Muslims. Yet for political and economic reasons many Palestinian Christian leaders blame Israel for these crimes rather than the actual perpetrators. This motif of the transference of blame has been adopted by several Christian leaders in the Western world. Others there who are aware of the PA’s human rights abuses choose to remain silent.

    Muslim organizations such as the PA, Fatah, and Iranian al’Hamas use threats and extortion to force Palestinian Christians to collaborate.

    The only way Palestinian Christians to be safe is for non-Palestinian Muslims to return to Islamic lands. Perhaps a few people will undergo sincere conversion back to a Palestinian faith and stay, but thus will be a tiny number.
    _____

    Recognizing that the key issues are religious (not ethnic) is essential to achieving a peaceful solution.

    Everyone sees that attempts to create a violent fight over racial spoils are Taqiyya deception. Islamic Colonial Jihadist conquerors do not want to peacefully end 1,400 years of occupation of non-Muslim lands. And, they are more than willing to intentionally misuse race & ethnicity to maintain their violent colonial dominance over authentic native Christians.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) From 2008 — https://jcpa.org/article/palestinian-crimes-against-christian-arabs-and-their-manipulation-against-israel/

  50. songbird says:

    If the American flag were racist, I doubt the country would be as demographically transformed as it is.

  51. iffen says:
    @Yahya K.

    Okay, I’m gonna put you in the “not a fan of Israel” group.

    • Replies: @Yahya K.
  52. @Boomthorkell

    Ruin a country economically, then skim off anybody who could rebuild. It’s a fiendishly clever modern sort of warfare.

    • Agree: Boomthorkell
    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
  53. Wency says:
    @Sollipsist

    I don’t get it.

    I take it as a sign that Republicans over the age of 50 live in this house.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Sollipsist
  54. @Yahya K.

    Islam is untrue, evil, backward, and dysgenic, and has been a political and social enemy of the Christian West since the times of the first Crusades. Muslims in Palestine can get bent. Our biggest mistake in the Middle East is that we should have given our European-Canaanite hybrid settlers control of Arabia instead of allowing the creation of a Wahhabi state there. If the Jews had control of Arabia, most of our headaches for the last 50 years wouldn’t have happened, the place would be wealthier and freer, and perhaps we wouldn’t have suffered the nation-ending ignominy of the police state ushered in by the Patriot Act.

  55. Yahya K. says:
    @iffen

    Okay, I’m gonna put you in the “not a fan of Israel” group.

    On the emotional side yes. I am an Arab (ethnically, though not necessarily genetically. Only half-Arab, with the other half being mostly Turkish and Indian), so naturally I throw in with other Arabs, and dislike Israel for what they did to my co-ethnics over in Palestine.

    [MORE]

    But that is only on the emotional side. I try to reign in my emotions from time to time and appreciate the creditable aspects of Israel (and Jews in general), such as their creativity, smarts and business aptitude which I admire in many ways. I also try to sympathize with the struggles Jews went through over the past millennium; and the position that many European Jews were put in during World War 2 that forced them to go looking for a new home elsewhere.

    That said, just because Ashkenazi Jews were persecuted in Europe, it doesn’t give them the right to inflict (albeit less severe) suffering on people who did not do it to them. I do recognize however that Arabs did mistreat Jews during the various caliphates, even if we were less severe about it than Europeans – but they were a different sort of Jew (Sephardic – not Ashkenazim). And here is the thing, the Palestinians living in the 20th and 21st century were/are under no obligation to pay for the mistakes of their ancestors. Nobody is. So that is why I feel the Zionists inflicted an injustice on them by driving them out of their homes and taking over their land.

    I don’t know how much you’ve read into the Israel-Palestine issue, but I highly recommend reading Benny Morris’ book on the subject (Righteous Victims). He is an Israeli and a Zionist, and his biases show through in the book. But he does try to be as honest and balanced as he can, and that’s why I like his books. They are detailed and describe with clarity all the facts that are relevant to the history of the area – again, albeit in a slightly pro-Jewish bent. But this is the best you will get on a contentious issue.

    Regarding what to do about the present-day situation, I haven’t figured out the answer yet. I don’t want Israel to be abolished, and nor do I want them to be absorbed into some sort of Islamic confederacy like Talha wishes. I don’t trust (us) Arabs to treat Jews properly were they to be a minority, considering the abysmal way Christian Arabs (who’ve done squat-all to deserve such treatment) are treated already. And the Israelis have demonstrated that they are capable of creating a prosperous society for their citizens of which the same cannot be said of Arabs. So the Israelis can stay as an independent state.

    But I would like them to use their smarts and business aptitude to help repay the Palestinians for driving them out. I’m not sure how one can bring this about. The Israelis promised multiple times throughout the previous century (all the way back to the early 1900s – and you’ll find this in Benny Morris) to help create jobs for the native Palestinians etc. but they never follow through and only seem to be using this as a propaganda gimmick to paper over all the injustices they’ve committed on the Palestinians.

    If I came off as resentful and bitter about this issue in my comment above, that’s because I am. It’s hard not to be after reading of all the humiliations and injustices that have occurred to Arabs over the past century at the hands of the Israelis. And this isn’t limited to the Israel-Palestine issue. It extends to the previous few centuries in which Arabs (and my Indian ancestors) were subjected to various indignities by European colonial powers, of which Israel is only one. The other one being British, and even Turkish (even though I have Turkish ancestry, i’m not remotely a fan of the Ottoman Empire). Again, I try to appreciate and respect the creditable aspects of all of the previously mentioned entities on the rational side, but the “the heart knoweth his own bitterness; and a stranger doth not intermeddle with his joy.” (Proverb 14:10; King James Bible). 🙂

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @iffen
    , @Mark G.
  56. songbird says:

    Would be interesting to ask the same question in Europe of European national flags. I suspect that the highest “racist” bars would be in those countries and regions most colonized by Arabs, Africans, etc..

  57. songbird says:
    @Wency

    Well, I’m not sure what he means, but I wonder how much of this is simply an urban/ non-urban divide.

    People in cities generally don’t own their own homes, so asking people about flags is basically asking them about how they perceive non-urbanites.

    Some people hate not only rural people, but suburban people. They want to force everyone to live in cities, so there will be no escape from their agenda.

    • Replies: @Wency
  58. @Yahya K.

    That said, just because Ashkenazi Jews were persecuted in Europe, it doesn’t give them the right to inflict (albeit less severe) suffering on people who did not do it to them.

    You have mainly the word of the Ashkenazim themselves that, and how, they were persecuted in Europe. If anyone should understand why the Ashkenazim would be so fantastically unpopular, century after century, in Europe whence they came, I would think that it would be a Palestinian.

    Little of what you have heard of the persecution the Ashkenazim suffered in Europe is true, except to the extent that it omits the inhuman deeds the Ashkenazim did in the first place to provoke the reaction. And Germans are not like that. That is not their character, if you know them—whereas the Ashkenazim, as a rule, are rather a lot like that.

    You’ve got your own problems and your own inherited colonial grudge against the white race of the north, so I do not ask you to empathize with my troubles. However, settling your difference with the Jews by affirming Jewish libel against the European is a bit much.

    (Ron Unz, on the chance you’re reading this, I am sorry. I regret it. You are a good man I admire, but the ethnic situation is what it is, and that is my view of it.)

    • Disagree: iffen
    • Replies: @iffen
  59. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Dumbo

    People, culture and language are indeed more important than a mere geographical entity, especially if it contains different groups of people. Blood lasts longer than soil.

    Yes.

    And we have to face the fact that many, if not most, modern nation states are just geographical entities. So any national identity is going to be very shallow and very artificial.

    The one thing that you cannot base a national identity on is “shared values” because in the modern West there aren’t any shared values (even though our politicians keep trying to convince us that shared values exist).

    In any typical modern western nation state you’ll find that middle-class values are not the same as working-class values. Liberals and conservatives hold values that are mutually incompatible. Christian values are not the same as atheist values. Traditionalist Catholic values are not the same as Evangelical values and Evangelical values are not the same as liberal Episcopalian values. Different ethnic groupings have differing values. The old and the young have different values. Rural communities and urban communities have different values.

    There’s simply no way to create any genuine national identity.

    In the past empires were able to create a shared identity based on loyalty to a monarch. That can work, up to a point but it’s a tricky balancing act to maintain. The Habsburgs and the Ottomans made it work for a very long time. It only worked for the British Empire for a short time.

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
  60. @Sollipsist

    It’s not even terribly modern. As far as I remember, carrying off artisans and desirables always seemed to be a thing.

    Modernity has given it a whole new scale, of course, and media a very disgusting positive image.

  61. @dfordoom

    A new Tian Xia for a new era.

    We need a new space age.

  62. Erisguy says:

    If only people would come to consider the yellow-and-red flags,usually with hammers and sickles, as genocidal and mass murdereous.

  63. iffen says:
    @Yahya K.

    so naturally I throw in with other Arabs

    When it comes to social identity, I treat it much the same as religion. I would not presume to “know” the answer for other people (and expect the same). And I agree with you that it is very much an emotionally laden area.

    I have “tried” to get some emotional direction when considering the conflicts around the world, but it is a no go. I have no emotional pull toward the Orange in Ireland, even though I know that many of my ancestors sojourned there. I look at it rationally and conclude that that they have been there long enough, and should be able to “keep” their little slice of the Isle until they are ready to unite. I have no emotional attachment to the “whites” in the former colonial countries of Africa for that matter.

    I have read Benny Morris and consider him an excellent and trustworthy scholar.

    The Israel question is a tough one for sure. I look at it as just one more nation forming like all the others that preceded it. I think that because of the JQ, and because it came at the tail-end of the nation forming period in the first part of the 20th century it presents some special problems. I think the Israelis could have been more generous with compensation, but as time has overtaken the issue that is problematic. I do think that they should stop with the further annexations.

  64. iffen says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Hasbarite provocateur.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  65. @iffen

    Quoth the Baron of Brevity:

    Hasbarite provocateur.

    Maybe so. Or do you mean me?

    Maybe so, that, too.

    I had better go to look up the word Hasbarite….

  66. Wency says:
    @songbird

    Good observation. I wonder if the results would be much different if you asked about owners of riding mowers. But I love riding mowers and yet don’t fly the flag.

    • Replies: @songbird
  67. Mark G. says:
    @Yahya K.

    On the Israeli versus Arab question, the U.S. position should be we really don’t have a dog in that fight. We don’t have to stick our nose into every quarrel on the planet. We have enough problems to deal with here in our own country. An interventionist foreign policy requires a large expensive military and we don’t have the money for that any longer. If we switched to a non-interventionist foreign policy we could cut military spending by at least fifty percent. We could save additional money by eliminating any foreign aid currently going to either side.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Wency
  68. songbird says:
    @Wency

    I used to like to see people flying the flag. Once, when I was young boy, we were out in the country in a summer cottage and some old veteran came walking down the road, and he looked far up the driveway, saw that we were flying a flag, and he saluted it. That was a long time before 9/11.

    But since then, I think it has become more subverted. I’m not sure what it stands for anymore, except our evil government. I think we are already past some demographic threshold where the Constitution is a semi-workable document. Liberians basically had a copy of the one we had, and it didn’t do them any good.

    And it is hard to appreciate it as a symbol of the military. The wars we fight are just weird wars in the Middle East. They seem to be for Israel, or perhaps, the MIC.

    Nor can I see it as a symbol of unity. Many of the people who are appealing to fact that we are all Americans are the same people who invoke Imbram X. Kendi. They seem to be doing it purely for their own status, to prevent some rational course of cutting them off – turning the tap of subsidy off, turning the tolerance for their bad behavior off, and making them live with their own kind.

  69. Wency says:
    @Mark G.

    An interventionist foreign policy requires a large expensive military and we don’t have the money for that any longer.

    USG has plenty of money for an expensive military. At some point in the future it might not, but right now it can still print money for free and borrow money for nothing, in addition to taxing an enormous economy. But yeah, I’m still for cutting military spending, with a tougher slice to Army/Marines than Navy/Air Force.

    On the Israeli versus Arab question, the U.S. position should be we really don’t have a dog in that fight.

    I mostly agree, though while I’m not really an Israel-basher, I have to think when it comes to realpolitik the Arabs’ goodwill is worth more because there’s a lot more of them and they have oil. Also dictatorships are cheaper and easier to buy off than democracies. But if all the US did was create some diplomatic distance with Israel, that would be a very low-cost way to buy some Arab goodwill. There’s not really a rational geopolitical reason why an alliance with Israel should be considered more valuable than one with, say, Greece. But obviously there is a domestic political reason.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @A123
  70. Anonymous[178] • Disclaimer says:
    @Vergissmeinnicht

    Not necessarily.

    They could also be individuals who display the American flag themselves and are proudly racist.

  71. A123 says:
    @Wency

    But if all the US did was create some diplomatic distance with Israel, that would be a very low-cost way to buy some Arab goodwill.

    The big problem with this concept is the ungrounded assumption that a pull back would gain “goodwill”. The strong regional leaders are already laughing at Biden. Weakness would generate huge amounts of “contempt”, not “goodwill”.

    There is a 100% chance that Ayatollahs Khameni and his Revolutionary Mullahs wouldn’t view a draw down as highly “exploitable”. They would *increase* violence against Christians in Europe and even here in the U.S.

    Odds are Erdogan would also view it as a Red Carpet for his Ottoman Imperial ambitions. The EastMed gas pipeline connecting Israel, Cyprus, Greece, and Italy is crucial for regional stability. A strong U.S. presence helps keeps the madness of Erdogan in check. U.S. weakness could result in a major war.
    ____

    Shutting down Afghanistan makes sense. The mission chasing Osama Bin Laden is long over. Plus, it is a landlocked logistical nightmare surrounded by potentially hostile countries. If China wants Afghanistan, they can try. Engagement proved impossible for both the U.S. and the USSR.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @Wency
  72. @A123

    There is a 100% chance that Ayatollahs Khameni and his Revolutionary Mullahs wouldn’t view a draw down as highly “exploitable”. They would *increase* violence against Christians in Europe and even here in the U.S.

    Calumny. Vicious propaganda.

    No matter how little harm Iranians actually do to Europeans, no matter how warm, decent, polite and generous most Iranians are most of the time, no matter how much unearned provocation Iranians absorb from Israel and the United States, you will find some pretext to blame them. Nothing Iranians can do will let them escape your implacable wrath.

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Replies: @A123
  73. Dr. Doom says:

    Jews don’t argue, they repeat their lies over and over.
    Its pointless to try to discuss anything with these deluded fanatics.

    )))They((( truly believe in the Lies Satan told them.
    How stupid is that? Damn stupid.

    They say that Satan always keeps his word. He’s the Best Liar in the Universe.
    Better to ignore the tribe. That infuriates them and their overblown egos.

    Just ignore A123 and his tribal cohorts. Let them talk to each other.
    They are a tape recorder in an echo chamber anyway.

    Hit the ignore on )))them(((. Let them talk to each other and no one else.
    That will end their reign of terror on Truth and Beauty.

    Its a bright and shiny world outside of the lying tongues of these deluded losers…

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  74. A123 says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Why are you so obstinate when it comes to OBJECTIVE FACTS about the Ayatollah’s anti-Christian Islamic regime? (1)

    Crimes Against Christians in Iran: Remembering Bishop Haik Hovsepian Mehr

    Iranian Christians are one of the most suppressed minorities in Iran. The government constantly deprives Christians in Iran of their most basic rights and prevents them from taking part in serious social and political activities.

    The crimes of Tehran’s rulers against the Iranian Christian community are numerous. Perhaps some of the most tragic chapters of these crimes are the murder of Christian spiritual leaders in Iran.

    On January 19, 1994, Iranian Bishop Haik Hovsepian Mehr was brutally murdered in Tehran – Evin prison. The Iranian government never launched any investigation regarding the inhuman crime against one of Iran’s prominent Christian spiritual leaders.

    Why do you embrace monsters who butcher Christian Clergy?

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.iranfocus.com/en/terrorism/34218-crimes-against-christians-in-iran-remembering-bishop-haik-hovsepian-mehr/

  75. @Dr. Doom

    Just ignore A123 and his tribal cohorts.

    I don’t know. A123 has said several things that interest me in the past, and has been unfailingly polite about it. Politer than I have been, at any rate.

    The general breakdown in communications between persons of opposite worldviews in the United States has grown pretty severe. One is reluctant to break the communications even further. At some point, people must talk.

    Moreover, A123 is outnumbered here. He deserves credit for bringing his game to our home field as it were.

    If I say something to A123, he usually responds to the specific thing I have said, and he does it without sharp insults against the persons involved in the conversation, and without hysterics. That’s really all one can ask.

    If A123 were Jewish or Hasbara or whatever—though he says he isn’t, so for a working assumption I’ll tentatively take his word for it—well, Americans are going to have to coëxist with Jews indefinitely. The Jews will not go away. Their influence will not vanish, but their influence can be opposed, restricted, moderated and, to a degree, maybe even partly channeled.

    • Replies: @A123
    , @dfordoom
    , @dfordoom
  76. A123 says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I placed “Dr. Doom” on my Blocked Commenters list some time ago.

    A123 has said several things that interest me in the past, and has been unfailingly polite about it. Politer than I have been, at any rate.

    I appreciate the compliment, however you give too much credit with “unfailingly”. I do not always live up to the ideals of my Christian faith.
    _______

    Here is another story you might find of interest about Ayatollah Khameni’s global support for violence: (1)

    German police uncovered a massive Iranian spy and terrorist network operating across 22 European cities. … The pan-European network came out after the German police recovered secret documents from Iranian spymaster Asadollah Asadi,

    With the threat of force off the table with President Biden in the White House, Iran — the world’s biggest state sponsor of terrorism — can resume the arming and financing of jihadi and terrorist groups across the globe.

    The Iranian people are also victims of the brutal Islamic Revolutionary government. (2)

    Since its inception in the late 1970s, the Iranian regime has executed numerous athletes for their political beliefs.

    Iran executed 27-year-old champion wrestler Afkari on Saturday, drawing widespread condemnation, including from the United States and the European Union. Afkari and his family had also said he was tortured into making false confessions.

    Below are some of the sportsmen and sportswomen Iran has executed in politically charged casers over the years.

    I realize that Amnesty International is a notoriously unreliable organization. However, during the 2019 fuel protests they obtained video evidence of the Iranian regime targeting their own civilians. (3)

    Amnesty cited “credible reports” for its tally and said it “believes that the real death toll may be much higher, with some reports suggesting as many as 200 have been killed.”

    “Video footage shows security forces using firearms, water cannons and tear gas to disperse protests and beating demonstrators with batons,” Amnesty said. “Images of bullet casings left on the ground afterwards, as well as the resulting high death toll, indicate that they used live ammunition.”

    Amnesty, citing eyewitnesses corroborated by video footage, said snipers also shot into crowds of people from rooftops and, in one case, a helicopter.

    The idea of an externally generated “Green SJW Revolution” was folly. However, the extremist theocracy has created huge internal resistance with its abuse of the population. Also, the IRGC lost much of its revolutionary zeal when it acquired a huge number of State Owned Enterprises [SOE]. Their authority & wealth is now directly tied to capitalist SOE revenue generation.

    A 100% internal counter-revolution, military and civilians working together, is a plausible solution to ending 40+ years of disastrous religious rule by the Mullahs. Hopefully it will happen sooner rather than later.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/german-police-expose-irans-vast-terrorist-and-spy-network-in-22-european-cities/

    (2) https://english.alarabiya.net/features/2020/09/18/Iran-s-history-of-executing-athletes

    (3) https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-than-100-killed-in-iran-protests-amnesty-international-says-2019-11-19

  77. dfordoom says: • Website
    @V. K. Ovelund

    The general breakdown in communications between persons of opposite worldviews in the United States has grown pretty severe.

    The hatred between people with opposing ideological views seems to be much much greater than the hatred between races.

    Class hatreds also seem to be growing sharper and more bitter.

    I can understand why people like AE fall for the “End the Hate – Separate” pipe-dream. It’s a very tempting cope.

    What’s really interesting is that the ideological divide is largely fake. The “Left” and the “Right” are both equally committed to maintaining the current neo-liberal economic system (which is in reality neo-fascist). The far right is too distracted by its racial obsessions to offer any effective opposition to neo-liberalism/neo-fascism.

    The ideological divide looks more and more like a fake divide that has been manufactured in order to ensure that there is no effective opposition to neo-liberalism/neo-fascism.

  78. dfordoom says: • Website
    @V. K. Ovelund

    If A123 were Jewish or Hasbara or whatever—though he says he isn’t, so for a working assumption I’ll tentatively take his word for it

    A123 is sometimes quite sensible on issues not related to religion. But once the subject of religion comes up it’s obvious that you’re dealing with a Christian zealot. There’s not much to be gained from debating religious zealots, especially Christian zealots.

    • Replies: @A123
  79. A123 says:
    @dfordoom

    I apologize if I come across as overly student from time to time. I am badly out numbered here by Muslims and their Dhimmi slaves.

    It is frustrating that people refuse to accept simple truths about religion:
    -1- Islam and Christianity are diametrically opposite
    -2- Muslim Allah is *NOT* the same as Christian God

    Apologists for for Shia Islamic violence use calumny & vicious propaganda against Jews as a distraction. When VK started posting, he sounded like an Tehran based Iranian Taqiyya operative. I am still not entirely convinced he is what he says he is.

    Part of being a good Christian is helping the Jewish victims of Muslim aggression. To me, their belief and practice supporting Old Testament values gives them great credibility as co-religionists with Christians. Christians who do not believe in the commonality of Judeo-Christian faith also have another reason to help the Jewish people. As a matter of objective fact, they are reliable allies in the struggle against IslamoGloboHomo.

    Individuals like The IslamoSoros fund Muslim NGO aggression against Christian values & practice. His Open [Muslim] Society Foundation is a scourge to Christians & Jews. Worse yet, the sharia compliant media and entertainment industries spend huge amounts of time undermining American values and covering up Muslim crimes against Christians. The Islamic Antifa movement is is a perfect example of the problem. (1)

    the migrant-rescue vessel Sea-Watch 4, which flew an Antifa flag from its bow while in a Spanish port.

    Thorsten Weiß, a politician for the AfD (Alternative für Deutschland, Alternative for Germany), has petitioned the taxation authorities to withdraw the tax-exempt status of Sea-Watch because of its proclaimed affiliation with a terrorist organization.

    The various Sea-Watch human trafficking vessels are indirectly funded by The IslamoSoros via his Open [Muslim] Society Foundation (2).

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://gatesofvienna.net/2021/04/more-on-sea-watch-4-and-its-antifa-flag/

    (2) https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/01/soros-funded-ngo-ship-sea-watch-3-roams-mediterranean-after-it-is-banned-from-ports-in-malta-greece-and-italy/
     

     

    • Replies: @Wency
  80. Wency says:
    @A123

    A strong U.S. presence helps keeps the madness of Erdogan in check. U.S. weakness could result in a major war.

    I’ll be honest, my eyes roll when I hear talk of “the madness” of this or that apparently more or less rational politician. See also North Korea for consistently generating this kind of talk. “Those crazy irrational Kims and their continued independence from USG, avoiding war and rebellion as they live out their lives in secure charge of an autocracy, dying of old age! What a bunch of nuts!”

    But the talk about US being the guarantor of peace everywhere and anywhere seems that it can be used to justify a massive US military presence forever, without ever knowing if it’s needed. “See, we have a massive MIC, and also zero significant wars between other states (even as we ourselves remain engaged in multiple Forever Wars)! The system works!”

    Weakness would generate huge amounts of “contempt”, not “goodwill”.

    Is it really weakness to treat Israel more like a normal country? To be honest, the slovenly way US politicians were trying to ingratiate themselves to Netanyahu during his last visit looked more like weakness to me. Would they have done that for, say, the King of Jordan, also ostensibly a friend of the US?

    The nominal US position has always been to try to treat Israel and the Arabs with some measure of evenhandedness. But then the US periodically gets ahead of itself, slobbers all over Israel, and gives the game away. I really don’t think the Arabs would react with contempt if our politicians could just dial down the slobbering. Now, if they were instead slobbering all over the Arabs — perhaps. So don’t do that either.

    To be clear, I guess I’m not really emotionally invested in the US-Israel relationship one way or the other though. I’m not scandalized by it like some here. I just think it’s stupid.

    • Agree: dfordoom
  81. Wency says:
    @A123

    Muslim Allah is *NOT* the same as Christian God

    I’ll be honest, I can never parse this statement, which I’ve been hearing for decades now. I know what it’s trying to say emotively, but logically it appears to be without content.

    I guess my question would be, when speaking of a single omniscient, omnipotent God, how does one distinguish between the statements “He worships a different God” and “He is mistaken about the nature of God”? I don’t think you can, and I think the latter is a frame that better approximates reality and Scripture. Romans 1 is basically describing that the human race has some “natural” knowledge of God, and that it is good, even for those ignorant of Christianity, to give thanks to God. When Muslims give thanks to Allah, would you contend that even in that moment they are refusing to give thanks to God (Romans 1:21)?

    Islam and Christianity are diametrically opposite

    When it comes to the three Abrahamic faiths, you can find several commonalities within each pair that don’t apply to the other two, so it’s really a matter of what you want to emphasize. When it comes to Christians and Jews per se, they tend to have more in common culturally because they tend to be people with roots in Europe, though those cultural commonalities are strongest where they are most secular. I acknowledge the inclination to want to back Israel because it’s more Western and democratic — more America-like — than its neighbors. Right or wrong, that’s a pretty natural response.

    • Replies: @A123
  82. A123 says:
    @Wency

    The concept of “Abrahamic faiths” is for gullible Infidels.

    The clearest proof that “Muslim Allah is *NOT* the same as Christian God” is the fact that Muslims, as an article of faith, target Christians for Murder/Jihad.

    One can rationally grasp that a religion dedicated to the extermination of Christians cannot be led by the Christian God. It is vastly more credible to believe that Allah exists as the Biblical enemy of God.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Wency
  83. Wency says:
    @A123

    The clearest proof that “Muslim Allah is *NOT* the same as Christian God” is the fact that Muslims, as an article of faith, target Christians for Murder/Jihad.

    Well, if that’s the strongest proof, it looks like a pretty tough case, because it’s a logical non-sequitur. If Joe Biden supporters kill other Joe Biden supporters in the name of Joe Biden, then are they supporters of two different Joe Bidens? Or are some of them perhaps mistaken about Joe Biden’s will?

    By the same token, I could argue Protestant Jesus is different from Catholic Jesus, or at least that this was so during the wars of religion. I could also argue that the 1st century Jews worshipped a different God — they did, after all, kill Jesus, which was simply an application of the Old Testament penalty for blasphemy: death.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @A123
  84. A123 says:
    @Wency

    I could argue Protestant Jesus is different from Catholic Jesus, or at least that this was so during the wars of religion.

    You could argue it now with substantial credibility.

    The IslamoPope Francis Muhammad:
       • Supports the Muslim Rape-ugee invasion of Christian Europe
       • Went on Hajj to Iraq
       • Publicly grovelled before his Muslim Master

    At this point it is still premature to declare Catholic = Muslim. However, it is worth noting that the SJW Islamic Catholic Church has done nothing to denounce The IslamoPope Francis Muhammad as an apostate.

    Given the failed construction of Papal Infallibility, perhaps he cannot be properly denounced until he is deceased. If so, it is likely to be years before we have a good read on the situation.

    I could also argue that the 1st century Jews worshipped a different God — they did, after all, kill Jesus,

    Nope. That is a lie. Pontius Pilate, a Roman, sentenced Jesus to death.

    Were a tiny number of money hungry Elites that had nothing to do with 99.99% of ordinary, non-Elite Jews involved in denouncing Jesus. Yes.

    Before you say that 0.01% of a population = *all* of a population, stop and consider carefully. Do you really want all Christians to be responsible for Obama’s minister Reverend Wright? People like him make up more than 0.01% of Christians.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  85. @A123

    At this point it is still premature to declare Catholic = Muslim.

    Well, if you did declare it, that would finally affirm your longstanding suspicion that I were a Muslim.

    @dfordoom

    I grow tired of admitting that you were right and I was wrong all the time, yet I think that I am finally persuaded that @A123 is a Christian, after all. Admittedly, who the heck knows anything on this pseudonymouse web site? However, the comment quoted above does seems to seal your conclusion.

    @A123

    Sorry for speaking of you here in the third person. No offense.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @A123
  86. dfordoom says: • Website
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I think that I am finally persuaded that @A123 is a Christian, after all.

    Christian Zionists can be much more extreme than Jewish Zionists. Whether you agree or disagree with Jewish Zionists they’re basically sane. They put Israel’s interests first which from their point of view is quite rational.

    Christian Zionists are not exactly renowned for being rational.

    Not that I’m suggesting that @A123 is ever irrational. Heaven forfend.

    • Replies: @Wency
  87. Wency says:
    @dfordoom

    There is one rational bit to Christian Zionism, which is that Christians have long enjoyed pilgrimages to the Holy Land. I’d enjoy doing this myself one day. For that reason, it’s desirable to have a regime with a reputation for public safety in charge of the place, and Israel is significantly safer for travel than any of its neighbors. If Israel were ever driven to the sea, pilgrimages would almost certainly become less safe.

    But there is certainly a sentimental side to Christian Zionism. It’s a force that I think is often exaggerated — aside from a sliver, I’d say most people who are saddled with that label still don’t give that high a priority to modern-day Israel in their thoughts, unlike Jewish Zionists.

    But it’s still real, and it strikes me as clear Republican “stupid party” stuff. Though admittedly, I grew up in a highly Jewish city and had several Jewish friends, but living in the South, I observe that most people here don’t have real experiences with Jews, and they have a romantic impression of most Jews as being religious, keeping kosher, and viewing Christianity with a benign respect. I live in a county that does not have a single Jewish place of worship, the closest is over an hour away.

    Just as racism has been banished within mainstream conservatism, so has anti-Semitism. The difference is that Southerners still know all the anti-black stereotypes — how could you not, living among them? But normies aren’t even aware of anti-Jewish stereotypes any longer. While they can fathom racism, someone who just can’t stand blacks and wants them gone, they can’t really even fathom anti-Semitism. And the result is that many of these people who might have had a bias against Jews a generation or two ago (despite not knowing any) have filled that gap with the heretical view that Jews remain God’s chosen and God is cool with their rejection of Jesus.

    I think they could probably be considerably enlightened if they just heard Jews talk about them for a bit. I’m not calling for the old anti-Semitism to return, just a little bit more realism.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @dfordoom
  88. A123 says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I do not want to make the same overreach that I accuse you of. The current Pope and immediate cadre around him are Elites who have sold out to SJW Islamic Globalism. Prematurely judging all Catholics based on a few of their Elites would be unfair.

    However, it is quite disturbing that there is no Catholic Church response. There is plenty of evidence Pope Francis’s policies are sacrificing European Catholic children (boys & girls) to Muslim Rape-ugees.

    • Do you agree (or disagree) that Pope Francis’s policies favour Muslims over Catholic Children?
    • If you agree, would you please explain why the Catholic Church tolerates his behaviour?

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @dfordoom
  89. @Wency

    Your polite comment, which mentions anti-Semitism, might or might not have had me in mind. I am not important enough to assume that it did, but let me respond, anyway.

    I think they could probably be considerably enlightened if they just heard Jews talk about them for a bit. I’m not calling for the old anti-Semitism to return, just a little bit more realism.

    Yes, I endorse with this and everything else you have written on the topic, except that I know nothing about the old anti-Semitism of which you speak. Do you mean in the U.S. South?

    I am aware that Jews complain about old anti-Semitism, but Jews complained about Jewish quotas in the Ivy League, too, until they took the Ivy League over (along with its priceless campus real estate and its massive, Gentile-funded financial endowments: the joke is on you, goyim); so such Jewish complaints no longer impress me.

    All that sounds as though I were pushing. I do not mean to. For information, though, what was that old anti-Semitism or which you speak, please?

    • Replies: @Wency
  90. @A123

    Sorry, I did not come to the blog to deprecate Holy Father. Had I negative opinions on the topic, I would probably not express them here.

  91. dfordoom says: • Website
    @A123

    • Do you agree (or disagree) that Pope Francis’s policies favour Muslims over Catholic Children?
    • If you agree, would you please explain why the Catholic Church tolerates his behaviour?

    The Pope’s policies on immigration are just standard Christian universalism, with a dash of left-wing anti-colonialism. And standard Christian emotion-driven policy.

    It certainly doesn’t make the Pope a Muslim!

    The current Pope and immediate cadre around him are Elites who have sold out to SJW Islamic Globalism.

    There’s no such thing as SJW Islamic Globalism. SJWism and Islam are entirely incompatible. That’s why the US makes war on Islamic countries – to promote anti-Islamic SJWism.

    The only Muslims who support SJWism are apostates who have entirely abandoned their faith and are therefore, by definition, non-Muslims. Describing them as Muslims is like describing atheists as Christians.

    I personally think that countries like the US and Britain that have trashed Islamic countries do have a responsibility towards the refugees they’ve created. The answer is for the US and its puppet states to stop waging war against Islamic countries. As Steve Sailer would say, stop invading the world and inviting the world.

    • Replies: @A123
    , @Wency
  92. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Wency

    But it’s still real, and it strikes me as clear Republican “stupid party” stuff. Though admittedly, I grew up in a highly Jewish city and had several Jewish friends, but living in the South, I observe that most people here don’t have real experiences with Jews, and they have a romantic impression of most Jews as being religious, keeping kosher, and viewing Christianity with a benign respect.

    Yes. Christian Zionists have crazy deluded hopelessly unrealistic notions about Jews. They often believe the Judeo-Christian nonsense. There’s no such thing as a Judeo-Christian tradition or Judeo-Christian values. Jewish traditions, beliefs and values. There’s some overlap but essentially you’re talking about totally different traditions, beliefs and values.

    Christian Zionists (who usually seem to be Evangelicals or followers of assorted weird Protestant sects) have the naïve idea that Jews are pretty much just like Evangelical Christians. But they aren’t.

    I have nothing against Jews but Jews have their own beliefs, values and agendas. I have nothing against the existence of Israel but Israel has its own interests which do not coincide with the interests of the US or of Europe.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
  93. A123 says:
    @dfordoom

    There’s no such thing as SJW Islamic Globalism. SJWism and Islam are entirely incompatible. That’s why the US makes war on Islamic countries – to promote anti-Islamic SJWism.

    SJW and Islam are inextricably linked. A couple of examples:

    -1- The French Muslim film Mignonnes (a.k.a. Cuties).

    • Muhammad raped Aisha when she nine years old.
    • Muslims must live as Muhammad did.
    • Therefore, Muslim men need a supply of young girls.

    Sexualizing under aged girls is very Muslim. This film, and many products of SJW Islamic Hollywood, are highly supportive of Islam *as actually practiced*.

    -2- The Islamic BLM movement. This is easy to identify in one picture:


    ____

    SJW hatred towards U.S. Christians is a subset of the Muslim Jihadi hatred toward all Infidels. Taqiyya deception encourages finding “useful idiots” to provide cover for SJW Islam. On the surface, you will see “idiot” Christian groups applied as camouflage. Dig deeper and you will find the Muslim SJW core.

    PEACE 😇

  94. Wency says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    No, that wasn’t directed at you. I should hope that my comments aren’t taken as passive-aggressive jabs at anyone in particular. If I’m thinking of someone specific when writing a comment yet I don’t name him, then most likely I just can’t recall who specifically may have said something.

    I have little doubt that Jews talk up historical anti-Semitism well beyond what actually happened, or at least what was the norm. Though I would also presume that at least some of those most focused on the JQ (again, not you specifically) are talking down historical anti-Semitism below what actually happened.

    But for purposes of my remark, I wasn’t intending to make a particularly strong claim about how much historical anti-Semitism there was in the US, if Jews were ever really excluded from public institutions or otherwise persecuted, or if the average person was spreading nasty and untrue rumors and myths about them. I only meant to say that I don’t support those things, at least so long as US institutions are what they are (if, for example, Harvard and Yale were still religious schools, that would be another matter).

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
  95. Wency says:
    @dfordoom

    The only Muslims who support SJWism are apostates who have entirely abandoned their faith and are therefore, by definition, non-Muslims. Describing them as Muslims is like describing atheists as Christians.

    While I don’t agree with A123’s general thrust here, this seems too strong. The only hijab-wearing member of the US Congress is an SJW, none of whose social views appear to be informed by Muslim tradition aside from her hostility to the traditions of Western civilization.

    Describing her as a Muslim is like describing an Episcopalian as a Christian. I can and do describe them as heretics, but as much as I wish I could say otherwise, they are still heretical Christians so long as they hold at least to something like the Apostles’ Creed. Non-Christians can’t really wield the word “heretic” though and the strongest they can say is “unorthodox”. And thus I think that’s all I can say of Omar — an unorthodox Muslim, but not an apostate.

    • Replies: @A123
    , @dfordoom
  96. A123 says:
    @Wency

    The only hijab-wearing member of the US Congress is an SJW,

    Ilhan Omar is not an exception, she is typical of U.S. elected Muslims. Some additional examples:

    • Rashid Tlaib — Michigan, U.S. House
    • Andre Carson — Indiana, U.S. House
    • Keith Ellison (a.k.a. Hakim Muhammad) — Minnesota, AG
    • Mauree Turner — Oklahoma, State Legislature — Known for identifying as sexual “non-binary”
    • Zohran Kwame Mamdani — NY, State Assembly — Democratic Socialists of America
    • Iman Jodeh — Colorado, State Legislature
    • Madinah Wilson-Anton — Delaware, State Legislature — Policy analyst at the University of Delaware’s Biden Institute (see below)

    To the best of my knowledge 100% of U.S. Muslim elected “major office” holders are SJW Islamic Globalist. The same is true of all the prominent U.S. based Muslim organizations such as CAIR, SPLC, and the Hezbollah funded “Nation of Islam”.
    ___

    I wish my often true assertion that “Elites do not represent the Non-Elites” applied in this case. Sadly, it does not.

    With the possible exception of Mauree Turner, the Non-Elite U.S. Muslim grassroots community fully aligns with and celebrates the SJW Islamic Globalist values the above elected officials espouse.

    If Ilhan Omar is SJW-Unorthodox, then it is not unreasonable to believe that the majority of U.S. Muslims are also SJW-Unorthodox under that standard.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Wency
  97. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Wency

    Describing her as a Muslim is like describing an Episcopalian as a Christian. I can and do describe them as heretics, but as much as I wish I could say otherwise, they are still heretical Christians so long as they hold at least to something like the Apostles’ Creed.

    Are lot of liberal Christians, especially liberal Episcopalians, are cultural Christians. In other words, not Christians in any meaningful sense. Much of the leadership of the Church of England for example is in fact for all practical purposes composed of atheists. That goes beyond heresy.

    I suspect that most SJW Muslims are cultural Muslims – they find it politically useful to identify as Muslims but they’re so far from orthodoxy as to be, for all practical purposes, lapsed Muslims.

    • Replies: @Wency
  98. Wency says:
    @A123

    I’ll give you credit here for these observations. Though I question how fully indicative this is of the grassroots.

    You can observe a similar phenomenon in the black church. It would seem all of the political leaders it produces end up fully embracing Woke positions on sex/abortion despite a large contingent of black Christians being orthodox on these matters (and blacks as a whole being more reluctant to embrace gay marriage than whites).

    Formal involvement in the Democratic Party evidently requires religious people to sell their souls, even if they’re black and might be expected to be given more freedom to think independently and still maintain their Democratic bona fides. I think the reason is that minority groups are more tolerant of their politicians differing from the community’s values so long as they appear to still be loyal to the community from which they came. Someone who is plainly Somali is still recognized as Somali even if she abandons Somali values, unlike white Christians for whom the values themselves are the cultural markers. Thus a Somali politician can sell out those values to increase her chances to win primaries and perhaps to buy some political capital with which to obtain other things that the Somali community prizes more highly.

    It’s lamentable, but I don’t know that white Christians would behave any differently if whites were a small minority and white solidarity were a thing.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @A123
  99. Wency says:
    @dfordoom

    Much of the leadership of the Church of England for example is in fact for all practical purposes composed of atheists. That goes beyond heresy.

    Yeah, there’s some validity to this. But at least in the US, The Episcopal Church still claims to hold to the Apostles’ Creed and John 3:16. Clearly some of the clergy does not, e.g. Spong, who was a bishop in good standing within that church, and an atheist. But my sense is most people who bother to show up in the pews on any given Sunday still mostly adhere to the Apostles’ Creed and John 3:16. Most of their sermons seem to treat these things as facts (they actually post recommended sermons on their website, I’ve looked at a few, and by and large they’re entirely orthodox).

    Plenty of Christians, perhaps a majority, wouldn’t consider Spong a Christian. But Omar is seemingly treated as a Muslim by everyone, Muslim and non-Muslim alike. No one, at least in the US, is saying she isn’t a Muslim. So I don’t know that we non-Muslims can claim authority to do so. And when I search for attacks on her from Muslims, they are all actually attacking her from the Muslim left (note that this might, paradoxically, sometimes look like attacking her from the US right: Miss Iraq caused a fuss when she called her “Islamist” and “Muslim Brotherhood”, which is a Republican sort of attack but implies that she isn’t secular enough).

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  100. A123 says:
    @Wency

    You can observe a similar phenomenon in the black church. It would seem all of the political leaders it produces end up fully embracing Woke positions on sex/abortion despite a large contingent of black Christians being orthodox on these matters (and blacks as a whole being more reluctant to embrace gay marriage than whites).

    Actually, just the opposite. Black Church leaders are well known for independently pursuing Christian goals in opposition to their local elected officials. For example: (1)

     

     

    President Donald Trump was prayed over by a group of black religious and political leaders in the Cabinet Room of the White House on Thursday. The president held a news conference and meeting and addressed the group of roughly two dozen black leaders.

    “In every field, every generation, and every calling, African-Americans have lifted up our nation to new heights — and, like all citizens, you are entitled to a government that puts your needs, your interests, and your families first,” Trump said.

    Christian Kim Klacik was not able to flip the safe DNC House seat in Baltimore. However, she is another good example of a Black Christian unafraid to stand against SJW immorality & corruption.

    There does not seem to be any similar resistance in the U.S. Muslim community. The examples above are not the end of the list. They are simply the best known. I could easily double (2x) the number of examples. Probably 3x or 4x.

    Detroit born Muslim, Keith Ellison fits your definition of SJW-Unorthodox. I cannot find any Non-Elite U.S. Muslim resistance to his SJW Islamic views. This 100% grass roots conformity cannot be caused by “Somali identity” as he is non-Somali.

    This brings me back to the simplest explanation for the observed facts — Both Non-Elite & Elite U.S. Muslims share the same SJW Islamic Globalist values.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/02/27/photos-black-leaders-pray-for-trump-at-black-history-month-celebration/

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  101. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Wency

    But Omar is seemingly treated as a Muslim by everyone, Muslim and non-Muslim alike. No one, at least in the US, is saying she isn’t a Muslim.

    Americans have bizarre and confused ideas on race. They behave as if “Muslim” is a race even though it is in fact a religion that sees race as irrelevant. Treating “Muslim” as a race would be like treating “Christian” as a race. But then Americans think there’s such a thing as an Hispanic race.

    So I suspect that liberals treat her as a Muslim because they think it would be racist not to, and rightoids treat her as a Muslim because they tend to view everything through the lens of racial hatred.

  102. @A123

    Most of your reply seems sound on its own merits, but are you sure that it didn’t miss Wency’s point? Wency ends with,

    It’s lamentable, but I don’t know that white Christians would behave any differently if whites were a small minority and white solidarity were a thing.

    A not identical but not unrelated phenomenon explains, as I suspect, why Chinese and Japanese vote Democratic in the United States, a pattern which otherwise baffles whites.

    [MORE]

    The party that implicitly promotes the customs, values and folkways of the country’s core population seems to find it hard to compete with the opposite, cosmopolitan party in the contest for minorities’ votes. Do you remember the great feeling of those Trump parades last year? The feeling was hard to put into words, but those minorities mostly weren’t feeling it.

    From general experience of human nature, I can see why.

    My view is that, practically, the Republican model ought to be the Cubans or, maybe, the Mormons, who have been allowed to find reasons of their own to bloc-vote Republican. This requires patience. You can’t find their reasons for them. (I get the sense, for example, that U.S. Koreans might be in play, for reasons of the Koreans’ own. If Republicans wish to win the Koreans, though, they’ll stand back and refrain from patronizing.)

    • Replies: @A123
  103. A123 says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Most of your reply seems sound on its own merits, but are you sure that it didn’t miss Wency’s point? Wency ends with,

    It’s lamentable, but I don’t know that white Christians would behave any differently if whites were a small minority and white solidarity were a thing.

    There can be value combining speculation with a hypothetical, however in this case it leads to a situation that cannot be tested. Sincere Christians stand up against corrupt authority. In Wency’s hypothetical — I have faith that traditional Protestant Christians would rightly choose God & “Christian solidarity” over “White solidarity”. However, I cannot prove my side any more than Wency can prove his.

    It seemed much more fruitful to indirectly refute Wency’s concept by illustrating the profound difference between Black U.S. Christians and Black U.S. Muslims. Even if there is a “Somali solidarity” effect exclusive to Omar, such solidarity would not benefit Detroit native Keith Ellison.

    PEACE 😇

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund

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