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Liberating or objectifying? The answer depends more on sex than on politics (or, overly generously, on constitutional interpretation). That’s probably one reason it doesn’t get talked about often in a political context:

My recommendation: Cut out the cranking. Irrespective of your particular situation, you’ll be better for it.

 
• Category: Culture/Society, Ideology • Tags: Polling, Pornography, Sex 
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  1. I wonder what the mainstream opinions on sex bots are.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    , @anon
  2. L Woods says:

    My recommendation: Cut out the cranking. Irrespective of your particular situation, you’ll be better for it.

    Because there’s just not enough surplus thirst for women to profit from. We need…more.

  3. @L Woods

    Because there’s just not enough surplus thirst for women to profit from. We need…more.

    Yeah….nope.

    Well, as an MGTOW I strongly support adult porn and sex bots.

  4. @EastKekistani

    Good question. I bet they mirror perceptions of porn but shifted towards disapproval for all groups.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @216
  5. @L Woods

    It’s enervating on multiple levels though, isn’t it?

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @L Woods
  6. @Audacious Epigone

    It really depends on how you view it.

    To me porn and erotica are useful since I can use them to get rid of sexual urges. I do not tend to seek them for other purposes. To me sexual urges are something useless since I’m MGTOW so I want to get rid of them as soon as they appear.

  7. anon[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @EastKekistani

    Heartiste reckons they’ll change everything.

    I think they’ll change almost nothing.

    What’s the difference between a sex bot and a prostitute? In both cases you’re paying to simulate a romantic experience with a woman. (Well, maybe not all that romantic.) In both cases you know it’s not really real, and in both cases, most men would feel a little ashamed.

    Because of that, most men today aren’t availing themselves of prostitutes. Sex bots won’t be any different. People just assume that they’ll change things, because they’re robots, and they’re from the future. They’ve imbibed the spirit of the age.

  8. @Audacious Epigone

    Probably. Do they have any rational reason for opposing sex bots? Women obviously oppose them because they take away their power over men. Some men may oppose it to signal that they aren’t incel because incels are a low status group that tends to favor sex bots.

    • Replies: @Toronto Russian
  9. @anon

    In both cases you’re paying to simulate a romantic experience with a woman.

    Well, I simply don’t believe that most women love their partners and spouses in any society at all. Darwinism informs me about how precarious the situation both men and non-human males are in. History informs me that if you got murdered in an ancient war your wife was likely to willingly submit to your murderer and forgot about you no matter how much you did for her.

    “Romantic experience” means a dude sometimes loving and often pretending to love a lady for the sake of sex and a lady pretending to love a dude for the sake of his resources. That’s it. If you chase a sexually attractive woman what you are after is essentially something that will go away in a couple of years for every pretty girl ends up as a smelly and ugly woman when she becomes sufficiently old.

    most men today aren’t availing themselves of prostitutes.

    Yes..for it is usually illegal and low status.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Rosie
    , @Corvinus
  10. @anon

    Differences: Not illegal, doesn’t involve gross sharing, doesn’t involve humiliating yourself in front of another human (I assume many men feel some shame as they use a prostitute, shame that the prostitute presumably picks up on).

    • Replies: @anon
    , @iffen
  11. In the modern world especially in the West people do not tend to consider power as something legitimate. But since power exists anyway people tend to avoid it when discussing issues which obfuscates issues.

    Example 1: What’s the basis of male power?

    Ability to murder and injure. No, it is not about intelligence or contribution. In societies in Sub-Saharan Africa where men are economically very unproductive there is still male power. Why? Because men are better bullies and murderers. The trait that causes women to obey men is the same as the trait that causes many non-Negroids to fear and avoid Negroids.

    Example 2: What’s the basis of female power?

    Ability to provide a limited resource. No, that resource isn’t housework. It isn’t even sex. Instead it is the fact that they are essential to childbirth. A man can live a long and wonderful life without women. On the other hand a man can not reproduce without women. Hell, it’s not even that reproduction is something essential. It really isn’t. You don’t need to reproduce to remain alive. You really don’t. However the blind hand of evolution certainly selects against whatever traits that leads to less surviving offsprings, especially traits that cause childlessness… The irrational and powerful craze for sex of course evolved through this process…to the point that many male organisms such as praying mantises would rather die just for the sake of having sex once..

  12. songbird says:

    This poll is quite funny. But I wonder what the average age of female respondents would be. I feel somewhat skeptical that most females who grew up with the internet would genuinely feel this way. But I think they would possibly be more likely to lie about it.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  13. Porn is for idiots. Anyone who is at all conversant with the 60s and its mentalities will know this implicitly.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @Truth
  14. @songbird

    I feel somewhat skeptical that most females who grew up with the internet would genuinely feel this way.

    Not really. That’s how you would have felt if you were a lawyer and AI lawyers better than humans ones began to show up…or if you were a cab driver and Uber arrived at your town..

    It is really about restricting competition, not very different from cab drivers protesting Uber or high school students & parents in certain cities of China where it is easier to get into top universities not wanting people from the rest of the country to be able to take their gaokao exams there.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @L Woods
  15. @obwandiyag

    Not really. Porn is good for MGTOWs who don’t want to be hijacked by their libido.

    • Replies: @216
  16. anon[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @EastKekistani

    [paying for sex] is usually illegal and low status.

    Exactly, as long as we understand that the latter does not follow from the former.

    There are lots of places in the world where prostitution is legal, or quasi-legal, or where the laws against it aren’t enforced. But there aren’t many places where using a prostitute isn’t low status.

    Sex bots will be low status too, and for the same reason, and will therefore be no more popular than prostitutes.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @AaronB
  17. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    Hey, it’s getting fun again.

  18. @anon

    Exactly, as long as we understand that the latter does not follow from the former.

    Sure.

    There are lots of places in the world where prostitution is legal, or quasi-legal, or where the laws against it aren’t enforced. But there aren’t many places where using a prostitute isn’t low status.

    Yes. This does not have a lot to do with whether it is legal. Instead it is more about breaking social norms and in the case of the West sexual unattractiveness.

    Sex bots will be low status too, and for the same reason, and will therefore be no more popular than prostitutes.

    I’m not exactly sure about that one. What if sex bots become so good that they are genuinely a lot better than humans in terms of the amount of sexual pleasure they can provide? In societies where people often live alone such as the West (and among younger people it also applies to NE Asia) people may treat sex bots like porn. They may use them all the time while denying that they actually use them at all until the norm against sex bots becomes impossible to enforce since almost everyone uses them anyway.

    • Replies: @anon
  19. songbird says:

    One thing I was always mystified by is the profusion of sex on network TV. I don’t see how anyone could possibly find it titillating, so it seems very unnecessary and in bad taste.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  20. anon[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    I think those are only minor differences.

    Prostitution is often legal, de facto or otherwise. (See my other comment.) Plus, I doubt people who think sex bots will change the world think that banning them will make much difference, although I may be misrepresenting the position.

    Not sure what you mean by “gross sharing”. If referring to STDs, fair enough, sex bots won’t have AIDS. (But condoms exist.) If referring to weirdos with intimacy problems, yes, sex bots might be preferable for some of them.

    Humiliation is exactly my point: anybody capable of feeling shame in front of a prostitute, which is most men, would also feel shame in front of a sex bot, and for the same reason: you’re settling for an ersatz romantic/sexual experience, because you aren’t good enough to get a real one. The fact that the robot doesn’t react to your shame is immaterial: you still feel it. (And many prostitutes are presumably good at pretending they don’t notice.)

    Sex bots will appeal to some subset of:

    – Men who are presently using prostitutes

    – Men who would use prostitutes, but are afraid of disease

    – Men who would use prostitutes, but are too autistic or whatever to be intimate with any real human being

    – Trans-humanist, techno-futurist types – the kind who’d like an RFID chip implanted in their skin

    – Men with extremely perverse sexual urges who are presently confining themselves to porn – assuming they can find a sex bot manufacturer willing to meet their demand

    And that’s it.

    Note re: evil perverts: across the entire population of such men, the escalation that sex bots will enable will push a few over the edge into indulging their urges for real, i.e. there will be a small increase in rape, pederasty, bestiality, etc after the sex bot revolution. For that reason alone, sex bots will be heavily regulated in most societies, and sex bots in the image of children, for instance, will be illegal.

  21. anon[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @EastKekistani

    Sex bots will be low status too, and for the same reason, and will therefore be no more popular than prostitutes.

    I’m not exactly sure about that one. What if sex bots become so good that they are genuinely a lot better than humans in terms of the amount of sexual pleasure they can provide?

    That may well be technically possible, but you’re missing my point if you think it’s relevant. A high-class prostitute is probably much better at giving sexual pleasure than a woman who doesn’t do it for a living, and yet most men are chasing the latter, even though the former is easier to get. If sexual pleasure was all men were after, they’d be saving themselves a lot of time and money by banging whores, but they’re not.

    Supermarkets exist, but men still go fishing.

    In societies where people often live alone such as the West (and among younger people it also applies to NE Asia) people may treat sex bots like porn. They may use them all the time while denying that they actually use them at all until the norm against sex bots becomes impossible to enforce since almost everyone uses them anyway.

    I would believe this if every man secretly brought out an arsenal of sex toys and drugs when he watched porn, but this isn’t the case.

    And the norm against prostitution is as old as prostitution is as old as humanity. It’ll never become “impossible to enforce” because it’s a facet of basic human nature. Men don’t like buying it, women don’t like selling it, and they certainly don’t like other women selling it.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @Rosie
  22. songbird says:
    @EastKekistani

    I wonder what the response would have been if they asked if pornography should be allowed. Going by originalism, they would probably be correct.

    • Replies: @Anon
  23. Anonymous[206] • Disclaimer says:

    It is an interesting data point and worth keeping in mind, but also inherent to the poll question that “pornography” as a term is so legally and culturally protean. Is sappy Twilight fan-fic not the kind of controlled-substance, capital-P porn of which you speak?

    Also, you’d have to be a space cadet not to observe the female shift toward abstemiousness and blue-haired-biddy kind of temperament in the U.S., with ersatz-domestic tics like getting into knitting/yarn crafts. It’s a cycle, of course: 1) build up the celebrities/prosititutes of the age (a sufficient supply of male dopes being essential to this formula); 2) get exhausted and depressed from doomed self-comparison to even the D-list tier of feminine icons comprising the bottom 1/2 of the 99th percentile of hotness and status; 3) start nagging any man in sight, merely for the distraction from worshipping the Kardashian or Markle literal betch goddess.

    I would be surprised by many women having deeply considered views on the morality of legal erotica but probably all have a general idea of unappealing “male behavior” they hate– not the same thing as a lonely dude whacking to porn, but related

    • Replies: @anon
  24. @anon

    If the sexbot can cook, clean, and satisfy a man sexually, and make sandwiches; then the primary ways a woman could compete for a share of a man’s resources would be to demonstrate superior moral values and child rearing abilities. Total game changer. If not, then it’s just an expensive fleshlight, and not important.

    • Replies: @anon
  25. anon[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Is sappy Twilight fan-fic not the kind of controlled-substance, capital-P porn of which you speak?

    Excellent point. The publishing industry caters to female tastes for the same reason the porn industry caters to male.

  26. @anon

    By this logic, internet pornography wouldn’t have been more popular than going to a porn cinema

    • Replies: @anon
  27. anon[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @14wordstofreedom

    There’s no reason that a sufficiently advanced robot couldn’t do all those things, although it’s worth bearing in mind that people have been waiting for robot butlers for a long time, and may be waiting even more.

    But my point remains: there’s no reason a man couldn’t pay a woman to do all those things today, but by and large they either don’t, or they do, but still get married anyway, and usually to a woman who offers more (or less) than her moral compass and parenting skills, i.e. a good-looking woman, if they can.

    Donald Trump can afford maids, cooks, and prostitutes, but he still married a supermodel. Were there no homely-looking chicks of better character to be found?

    Even if they were more than an expensive fleshlight, sex bots would still be no big deal.

    • Replies: @Truth
  28. anon[290]: “Men don’t like buying it, women don’t like selling it, …”

    Baloney.

    If that were true, there’d be no need to make laws against prostitution. It’s unnecessary to make laws against something nobody wants to do.

    anon[290]: “… and they certainly don’t like other women selling it.”

    True, which is probably why there are such laws. As usual, the popular wisdom is 100% an inversion of reality. We live not in a patriarchy, but under a totalitarian matriarchy. As the #metoo movement shows, a man can be ruined nowadays even for offenses that exist only in the woman’s mind. She was raped if she feels it was rape; assaulted if she felt assaulted.

    • Replies: @anon
  29. anon[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dr. Robert Morgan

    anon[290]: “Men don’t like buying it, women don’t like selling it, …”

    Baloney.

    Take it to mean “most men”, “most women”.

    There are laws against lots of things that most people don’t want to do.

    • Replies: @Michael S
  30. anon[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @Curious Person

    That is a fair point. But the analogy only goes so far.

    Why was internet porn more popular? Thinking out loud…

    No-one’s going to see you going in to the theatre any more. But porn was able to keep the entire video rental industry afloat for years, and your neighbours might see you sneaking off into the adult section in the back. Were there that many people too embarrassed to use videotapes and DVDs, but willing to use the internet? Or is it just that it’s easier for porn consumers to consume more porn now?

    (It occurs that a big growth market for internet porn, at least the free stuff, was teenage boys, who would’ve struggled to rent porn from video stores. But presumably they’ll also struggle to buy sex bots, so it’s moot.)

    Internet porn is much cheaper than the alternatives, so maybe it came down to price. If that’s true, then maybe sex bots will take over once they’re cheap enough – but I don’t know. The price for actual prostitutes can go much lower than it is, right? They don’t have much overhead; their price is mostly related to demand. Compare the transition from theatres to video to internet, where porn producers lowered their overheads each time. Theatres would inevitably lose out there, but flesh-and-blood hookers might not, if they can match the costs of the sex bot manufacturers.

    All interesting to think about, perhaps, but it occurs that it’s not really germane to my initial point, which is that sex bots won’t much change society, at least not to the extent that some people – e.g. Chateau Heartiste – say they will. Sex bots may well replace prostitutes, but they won’t bring much more change than that.

    I suppose, though, that if an entire generation grows up banging sex bots as much as young men today watched porn, then I might be forced to eat my words.

    • Replies: @216
  31. @anon

    most men today aren’t availing themselves of prostitutes

    Really? Numbers on this must be fiendishly difficult to pin down especially as “most men would feel a little ashamed”, but the Feds didn’t shut down Redbook, Craigslist ads, and other online “adult” hook-up sites because they were languishing unused.

    Sex bots won’t be any different

    If you try to “shut down” a prostitute and shove her in a closet when surprise guests show up, you’ll likely end up in prison. So that at least will be different.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Feryl
  32. anon[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    “Numbers on this must be fiendishly difficult to pin down…”

    I doubt they’re much less accurate than numbers re: masturbation, porn, etc. Perhaps this is a topic for our intrepid host and his powerful research skills?

    “…but the Feds didn’t shut down Redbook, Craigslist ads, and other online “adult” hook-up sites because they were languishing unused.”

    Don’t be silly. That there are enough men willing to fuck hookers as to keep the lights on at Craigslist doesn’t rise to “most men”. But again, perhaps someone ought to find some numbers. Just how many men fuck whores regularly, and how many have ever done so, and what’s that as a proportion of all men?

  33. iffen says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    (I assume many men feel some shame as they use a prostitute

    Only the ones that think that they are “better than” the prostitute.

  34. L Woods says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Like social media, it’s probably a double edged sword. Like prostitutes and sexbots, I’m inclined to personally abstain while supporting its proliferation.

  35. L Woods says:
    @EastKekistani

    Ditto with the current “sex trafficking” moral panic.

  36. @EastKekistani

    To me porn and erotica are useful since I can use them to get rid of sexual urges. I do not tend to seek them for other purposes. To me sexual urges are something useless since I’m MGTOW so I want to get rid of them as soon as they appear.

    What, you don’t know how to move your body? Maybe you could, like, go for a walk or something? Good grief, you people are ridiculous. What, you think our incredibly masculine European ancestors settled this country by way of channeling their sexual urges – that is, energy – into porn?

    • LOL: Truth
    • Replies: @Talha
  37. @L Woods

    This comment makes a lot more sense if your last name is actually “Woodstein.”

    Tell me: where, exactly, in the Talmud can I find the elaborate moral justifications for supporting this “proliferation”?

  38. anon[290]: “There are laws against lots of things that most people don’t want to do.”

    You’re missing the point. Virtually everybody wants to do illegal things, but fear of the law prevents it. That’s the reason the law exists.

    Laws against prostitution in the US are draconian, particularly for men who patronize or would like to patronize prostitutes, since as I said above, we live in an unacknowledged matriarchy. In many jurisdictions penalties for mere solicitation can include vehicle forfeiture, loss of job, fines, and having to register as a sex offender.

    Just as there’s no reason to make a law against something nobody wants to do, the severity of the penalty is an indication both of how badly people want to do it, and how much society wishes to discourage the behavior. For example, laws against murder until recently usually included the death penalty. You would no doubt reply that most people don’t want to commit murder, which might be true most of the time. But virtually everyone can think of occasions in their past in which they’ve been angry enough to want to kill someone, or at least could have gained considerable advantage by doing so; and likewise, virtually all men have been horny enough at some point to want to solicit a prostitute. The law, with its potential penalties, is what restrains them. The shame that you and others cite as a disincentive is just an internalization of the law. It’s more effect than cause.

    • Replies: @anon
  39. Genericus says:


    Real life reactions to a sexbot, prepare to cringe.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  40. ” … Cut out the cranking.”

    If by “cranking” you mean masturbation I’m afraid I must disagree, AE. If a man doesn’t have a partner with whom he can relieve himself on a daily basis then he should resort to masturbation. Guys need to expel the demon juice to keep the prostate healthy. If your imagination is insufficient to conjure erotic images and thoughts to make quick work of your daily needs, then turn to visual aids. We dudes are visual creatures. But while you’re cranking your yank in front of the digital screen, remember that the porn business profits from performers who usually come from a background of childhood sexual abuse.

  41. notanon says:

    o/t

    but just realized they seem to have dropped “religion of peace”

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  42. notanon says:

    i think dropping sex dolls over the 3rd world could dramatically reduce immigration.

    • Replies: @216
  43. anon[188] • Disclaimer says:

    My recommendation: Cut out the cranking. Irrespective of your particular situation, you’ll be better for it.

    i’m practicing for when i get the real thing

    i’ll be ready

  44. anon[188] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    had me until “liberator” of jerusalem

    islam liberates no one

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Achmed E. Newman
  45. Truth says:
    @anon

    Donald Trump can afford maids, cooks, and prostitutes, but he still married a supermodel.

    All that glitters, grashopper…

  46. Talha says:
    @anon

    Thanks. Who taught you that “liberation” is the end purpose of life?

    Why? So that one can serve the wrong master…

    “Have you seen the one who takes his desires as his god?…” (25:43)

    As far as Jerusalem, well, we certainly think he liberated it; you are free to come for it again once we get it back – then you can say you liberated it! Fun times!

    Peace.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Audacious Epigone
  47. Truth says:
    @Talha

    LOL, I’m just messin’ with Keki, he’s pretty rude he can take it.

    • Replies: @iffen
  48. JRM says:

    I don’t think anyone has mentioned a potential downfall for the owner of a sexbot, and that is over-familiarity. One of the big drivers that set men looking for prostitutes (or massage “therapists”) is the simple urge for something besides the wife or gf. Plenty of men with beautiful wives will occasionally seek “professional” short-term encounters simply to satisfy the urge for something different- even if different is actually less attractive than their sanctioned mate. A girl I knew once described any non-wifely body a man sought as “strange”, i.e., a vagina “strange” as in previously unknown to that particular man.

    I think boredom drives a large part of the trade in prostitution; not desperation, not uncontrollably strong lust; just boredom and that irritating sense in the back of the head that says life holds more excitement than you are currently enjoying.

    Back to the bots: they will become unexciting even faster than flesh and blood gfs and wives, because the latter can at least be shocked occasionally by some new, offbeat sexual request.

    Bot manufacturers should probably consider a generous trade-in allowance on used models, to keep selling fresh product.

    • Agree: Travis
    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @EH
  49. Mark G. says:
    @anon

    I don’t remember the exact numbers but the number of men who have visited a prostitute was twice as high in Europe than the U.S. It was something like thirty percent and fifteen percent. It’s mostly legal in Europe so that means that half the men in the U.S. who would normally do it aren’t doing it just because of the illegality of it here.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  50. anon[188] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Thanks. Who taught you that “liberation” is the end purpose of life?

    Why? So that one can serve the wrong master…

    who taught you that your job was to “teach” me?

    you and your religion are just more authoritarians trying to shove their beliefs down others’ throats at the point of a gun

    • Replies: @Talha
  51. Talha says:
    @anon

    who taught you that your job was to “teach” me?

    God did, whether you accept it or not is your business.

    you and your religion are just more authoritarians

    I get it, the growth of Islam might mean less access to on-demand porn and less “slut walks” in major metropolitan areas might even mean more difficult access to abortions. I feel your pain.

    I’m sure we can come up with a nice arrangement with an atheist collective to let you guys have your own millet where you can do these things undisturbed within your jurisdiction. Just pony up taxes and we won’t care what you do; have pot-smoking orgies with your grandparents in the streets – no sweat off my back.

    shove their beliefs down others’ throats at the point of a gun

    This is how democracy works once you have a majority – it’s built into the cake; if I try to marry another wife, I’ll get thrown in jail by a bunch of guys carrying guns:
    “In Illinois, committing bigamy is a Class 4 felony. If a person is found guilty of this crime, he or she can be sentenced to up to three years in prison. In fact, a person found guilty of Class 4 in Illinois can be sentenced to no one less than one year, but not more than three.”
    https://www.scomlaw.com/divorce-lawyer-dupage/2014/06/13/uncovering-bigamy-divorce/

    Why are secularists such authoritarians?

    Peace.

  52. @EastKekistani

    That was a great comment, E.K. It’s hard for young people to understand that what you wrote is kind of what it’s all about. When you’re young it feels like LUVVV… don’t you LUV to be IN-LUV?! (I think that last bit was a from comedy routine by some feminist, come to think of it, Bette Midler?? Anyone?)

    I’ve been in love, but sometimes what it’s really all about comes through all that.

  53. @anon

    women don’t like selling it… … women don’t like people understanding that they are selling it.

    FIFY, as they say on the internet. Women not only ARE selling it (ever known a man who just likes to pay double for auto insurance and maintenance, triple for food, and quintuple for clothes, and put his house and other assets up for a 20-year gamble just for the extra fun of working harder and longer?), but it’s in their nature to sell it. That’s what marriage or partnership is about.

    … and they certainly don’t like other women selling it

    No, not a a steep rental discount they don’t. If it flies, floats, or _____, well you all have heard that before.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @iffen
    , @anon
  54. Rosie says:
    @JRM

    I think boredom drives a large part of the trade in prostitution; not desperation, not uncontrollably strong lust; just boredom and that irritating sense in the back of the head that says life holds more excitement than you are currently enjoying.

    This is also my impression. The solution is to crowd it out with hobbies. Chess, reading, a musical instrument, home improvement, whatever it takes.

    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  55. Rosie says:
    @anon

    Men don’t like buying it, women don’t like selling it, and they certainly don’t like other women selling it.

    Women’s opposition to prostitution is not about market control. We oppose prostitution because we believe the prostitute is harming herself, not the rest of us. Women generally believe prostitution should be illegal, but oppose severe punitive measures against it.

    • LOL: L Woods
    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Michael S
    , @216
    , @anon
  56. Rosie says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    FIFY, as they say on the internet. Women not only ARE selling it (ever known a man who just likes to pay double for auto insurance and maintenance, triple for food, and quintuple for clothes, and put his house and other assets up for a 20-year gamble just for the extra fun of working harder and longer?), but it’s in their nature to sell it. That’s what marriage or partnership is about.

    Because it’s just inconceivable that men value their wives’ companionship and nurturing services. As ever, I try to defend the essential goodness of mankind (in the narrow sense), and am foiled by the very men I try to defend, who appear to agree with feminists for the most part about the nature of Male humanity.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @iffen
    , @anon
  57. AaronB says:
    @anon

    In Asia, men regularly and avidly patronize prostitutes. Its huge, and there’s no shame. And the “fantasy” element does not bother them at all. They know its not real, but culturally that’s fine.

    The insistence on real affection and the sense of shame at visiting a prostitute is purely a Western cultural thing, and a fairly recent one at that.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Feryl
    , @anon
    , @anon
  58. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    Survey cited in this article shows that only 20% (18% of men and 21% of women) think prostitution should be an incarcerable offense.

    https://reason.com/2016/03/11/american-prostitution-study

    For patrons, 19% of men and 20% of women think incarceration would be an appropriate punishment.

  59. AaronB says:
    @anon

    Most high status men use prostitutes. That’s why we have these scandals every now and then. And also mistresses.

    Using prostitutes is forbidden to the middle classes, who are always the guardians of social morality, and have stricter rules than other classes.

    The lower classes are outside the social pale, and the upper classes are free from any status concern and play by their own rules.

    The upper and lower classes are both free for different reasons, whereas the middle classes have to obey social rules.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @L Woods
    , @anon
  60. @Rosie

    They do value that stuff, Rosie. That’s why it’s great “being just friends”.

    Once you get married, you’ve put your money down, and made that gamble that those 2 other important parts you mentioned will hold out. If they don’t, and there are kids involved, then you put up with it for those innocent kids or The State wins, one or the other.

    You can’t deny Mother Nature, though, sex for protection, deal or no deal? It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature!

    • Replies: @Rosie
  61. “Cut out the cranking.”
    To paraphrase Grandmaster Melle Mel:

    Meat Beat
    Ya beatin’ ya meat
    I seen ya beatin’ that meat from across the street
    Meat Beat is a lesson, too
    Don’t let ya meat beat you

  62. @Rosie

    I’m not sure you have any ability to explain ANY of this without the same equipment, Rosie. I’m just saying. You are trying to understand, but without those parts you not only never will, but you CAN’T.

    It probably goes vice versa, I will admit. I don’t have those hormones that make you all into nut-cases for significant chunks of the lunar month. It’s very expensive. Help me understand …

    .

    … no, I kid. I don’t want to know ….

  63. @Rosie

    No deal.

    And your husband hasn’t sue for breach of contract? Whaaaa??

    Wait a minute. You have 6 kids, right? So, yes, whatever BS you may say here, you made a good deal.

    • LOL: Rosie
  64. Rosie says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    You can’t deny Mother Nature, though, sex for protection, deal or no deal?

    Let me explain to you the difference between a wife and a prostitute since you seem to be confused.

    A prostitute will only consider men of means, and if they become unable to provide for her, she’s off. A real wife chooses her husband out of genuine regard and affection, and remains with him irrespective of his economic resources.

  65. Michael S says:
    @anon

    the escalation that sex bots will enable will push a few over the edge into indulging their urges for real, i.e. there will be a small increase in rape, pederasty, bestiality, etc

    This is like the “video games cause violence” and “porn causes rape” narratives, both literally opposite to the reality. If anything, sexbots would reduce sex crime, but of course women don’t really care about that, they only care about eliminating competition, as others have already pointed out.

    If sexual pleasure was all men were after, they’d be saving themselves a lot of time and money by banging whores, but they’re not.

    Also very wrong, or at least massively distorted. The reality is that we have a superabundance of whores who just aren’t charging much for their services.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @anon
  66. Rosie says:
    @Michael S

    If anything, sexbots would reduce sex crime, but of course women don’t really care about that, they only care about eliminating competition, as others have already pointed out.

    The upside: men who think sexbots are suitable substitutes for real women would fail to pollute future generations with the defective genes.

    The reality is that we have a superabundance of whores who just aren’t charging much for their services.

    That’s a headscratcher.

    Actually, not really. Once again, the grievance is not that women are “whores,” but rather precisely that we are not.

    • Replies: @Michael S
  67. Anon[170] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @EastKekistani

    To me porn and erotica are useful since I can use them to get rid of sexual urges. I do not tend to seek them for other purposes. To me sexual urges are something useless since I’m MGTOW so I want to get rid of them as soon as they appear.

    Since the 70s, it’s been said 80% of Japanese cinema consists of porn movies. Some study says 1/200 Japanese women are into porn business. That is not a healthy society. It’s one thing to have some sex industry as Red Light district stuff. In Japan, it has taken over much of culture.
    In the 80s and 90s, Western commentators would disapprovingly of Japanese in their relation to erotica. For example, there were articles about how people in subway flip through porny magazines and manga(yes, porny cartoons). That became the Norm in Japan. And now, look at the spread of jungle fever in Japan. As a porny nation, Japan is about featuring Negro men and Japanese women, and as the message spreads, more Japanese women will have kids with black men, and these kids will take over sports and Japanese will worship blacks as Japanese heroes. That will set the psychological template for Japan going the way of London.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  68. Michael S says:
    @anon

    Dude, what do you think Tinder is?

    If you guessed anything other than “heavily discounted prostitution”, then you guessed wrong. It’s the expense, social stigma, and usual illegality that largely stops most men from soliciting prostitutes.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Mark G.
  69. Anon[170] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @songbird

    At the very least, access to porn should be denied to kids. This should be done at all cost.

    But internet monopolies crack down on free speech while doing little to control access to porn.

    If it’s illegal to sell porn to minors, why should it be so easily available on the net?

    It’s like saying tobacco can’t be sold to minors but making it super-easy for kids to get cigarettes.

    But then, today’s media are like porn. Russia Collusion… hysteria porn.
    Iraq War: Neocon War Porn.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Feryl
  70. utu says:

    Sex bots? But Jew bots on which you could practice your anti-semitic fantasies or acts that could be perceived as anti-semitic will be certainly outlawed.

    Children beat effigy of Judas in Poland, amid persistence of ‘medieval anti-Semitism’
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/04/23/children-beat-effigy-judas-poland-amid-persistence-medieval-anti-semitism/?utm_term=.21dd38d0057c

    • Replies: @Curious Person
  71. Michael S says:
    @Rosie

    Women’s opposition to prostitution is not about market control. We oppose prostitution because we believe the prostitute is harming herself

    Feminists: Women who have sex for money are harming themselves.

    Also feminists: Women who hook up with dozens of men on Tinder, make thousands of dollars camwhoring on Instagram, or marry and then divorce rich men for their money are strong, empowered and courageous.

    Women are literally incapable of telling the truth on this subject. A woman with no sexual history who chooses to go into prostitution, including the soft prostitution of modeling/acting/etc., is harming herself. That’s true. But a prostitute with 10 years and thousands of tricks under her belt is not further harming herself by continuing to ply her trade.

    Besides, if that were truly your objection, then you wouldn’t have a problem with sexbots, as they have no humanity and therefore can’t harm themselves. And yet you feel anger, or at least irritation about them, don’t you? No matter, the hamster will spin some new rationalization for that anger.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Rosie
  72. @utu

    That does seem like a rather niche market.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  73. Political speech is the thing that is constitutionally protected, but in this upside-down world, they protect porn more than political speech.

  74. Rosie says:
    @Michael S

    No matter, the hamster will spin some new rationalization for that anger.

    I wasn’t aware that objecting to perversion required any “rationalization.” If it came right down to it, I’d struggle to articulate a logical reason why consensual necrophilia is morally wrong.

    https://www.debate.org/debates/Consensual-Necrophilia/1/

    But a prostitute with 10 years and thousands of tricks under her belt is not further harming herself by continuing to ply her trade.

    You think so because you consider her damaged goods that can’t be damaged any more than she already is.

    In any event, if you must resort to sex outside of regular marriage, using a secret rather than a human being is to be preferred, I suppose.

    • Replies: @Michael S
  75. Michael S says:
    @Rosie

    Once again, the grievance is not that women are “whores,” but rather precisely that we are not.

    Ha! I think you have me confused with the MGTOW whiners. No shortage of whores here; you just refuse to abide by the word’s proper, biblical definition, and instead insist on one that involves a formal transaction with money changing hands.

    If you could see past your silly paleo-feminist posturing for one minute and actually listen, you’d realize that men like myself are your only real allies in this fight. I don’t think porn or prostitution should be destigmatized or legalized, but the problem with our system is that it’s women who need to be regulated in order to make that happen. If there are many rules for men and none for women, then a single man who breaks the rules can ruin a hundred women. If the rules (and social norms) are applied to women, then only the one woman who breaks the rules is ruined.

    You yourself claim that female prostitutes are harming themselves, so why are they allowed to do it? Is it logical that the only “crime” is when a man takes her up on her offer? That’s like making drug trafficking legal, but possession illegal. Totally impractical and utterly absurd.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Rosie
  76. L Woods says:
    @AaronB

    This is accurate. Given that the lower classes don’t live poorly in an objective, material sense in today’s America, there’s a definitely a certain argument to be made for ‘dropping out’ and living amongst the proles.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  77. Rosie says:
    @Michael S

    Also feminists: Women who hook up with dozens of men on Tinder, make thousands of dollars camwhoring on Instagram, or marry and then divorce rich men for their money are strong, empowered and courageous.

    There is no feminist consensus on sex work.

  78. Rosie says:
    @Michael S

    No shortage of whores here; you just refuse to abide by the word’s proper, biblical definition, and instead insist on one that involves a formal transaction with money changing hands.

    I don’t consider money changing hands to be the defining characteristic of prostitution. Rather, it is sex for consideration, in cash or in kind.

    I don’t think porn or prostitution should be destigmatized or legalized, but the problem with our system is that it’s women who need to be regulated in order to make that happen

    What sorts of “regulations” do you have in mind, and to what end?

    • Replies: @Michael S
  79. Michael S says:
    @Rosie

    I wasn’t aware that objecting to perversion required any “rationalization.”

    And there it is. Can you articulate a definition of sexual perversion, or is that also just a vague emotion?

    You think so because you consider her damaged goods that can’t be damaged any more than she already is.

    Yes. Realistically, scientifically, there isn’t a huge difference between a hundred partners and a thousand partners. All of the attributes we know how to measure – happiness, chance of marriage, chance of divorce, fertility, etc. – they all fall off a cliff after about a dozen, and by the time a woman hits 20 or 30 partners, they’ve basically flatlined.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @anon
  80. Michael S says:
    @Rosie

    What sorts of “regulations” do you have in mind, and to what end?

    Pretty obvious, isn’t it? The same regulations that kept the western sexual market in check for a thousand years. No premarital sex, and shotgun marriage for anyone caught breaking that rule.

    This necessarily requires removing many of the legal protections for single women that you’ve come to believe are “rights”. Because as long as they’re in place, whores receive a temporary but significant advantage over women who exercise self-control.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Rosie
  81. 216 says:
    @EastKekistani

    In comparison to a low value man being cuckolded and destroyed by an ex-wife in divorce court, there is some logic to that thinking.

    It should still be viewed as negative, however, as it shows weakness of willpower.

    As the various “vice industries” go, the sex industry is quite unregulated and that should probably change.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  82. Talha says:
    @Michael S

    The same regulations that kept the western sexual market in check for a thousand years.

    Return to a negotiated form of benevolent (not predatory) legalized patriarchy – this is good. Thumbs up!

    whores receive a temporary but significant advantage over women who exercise self-control.

    Sex needs to have a high market value again (it is in women’s interest):
    https://canavox.com/dear-katy/hope-for-35-and-single/

    Peace.

  83. 216 says:
    @Anon

    If you want to sell this narrative, you have to voice it in the black female dialect, shaming black men for not showing tribal loyalty.

  84. AaronB says:
    @L Woods

    Oh yeah, there is definitely a certain temptation in that. Every couple of years I almost feel like doing it lol.

    In a way the middle classes are the least free of anyone. Taleb wrote recently that only the very wealthy and the extremely poor are truly free in a society – and of the two, the poor are actually freer. And that is certainly correct.

    Philosophers and mystics have been saying this for a long time.

  85. @Rosie

    ” A real wife chooses her husband out of genuine regard and affection, and remains with him irrespective of his economic resources.”

    That’s certainly the theory, and even the contract (unenforceable) made at marriage. For better, for worse. But there must be an awful lot of “not-real” wives out there, when 70% of divorce is initiated by women.

    Try losing your job or your business, the house goes, you’re in some grotty “social housing” (aka ‘project’) 25 miles away, the kids either have to move school and lose their friends or you have a big school commute, and your wife’s friends are all at once sorry for her and obscurely thrilled by the catastrophe.

    Still, some good women hang on in there and stick to their vows. But a lot won’t.

    Back on topic, I think the chaps are going to have to wait until the Chinese, who like to play with real DNA, develop the Stepford 2030 human/computer hybrid- warm, living, with all the attributes which pull the male evolutionary mating triggers, but with the female evolutionary mating strategy/psychology (which looks and tests for the best she can get) disabled. It could give them mastery of the globe, if only by the enormous demographic hit on recipient countries as men drop out of the marriage market.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @Rosie
  86. 216 says:
    @Rosie

    Regardless of how you phrase it, the logic of protectionism still remains. Revealed prefereneces are what matters.

    The average woman stands to benefit from a society where beta male sexuality is contained, and their only option for release is relentless labor to signal provider status. Much of the Islamic world is governed in this fashion.

    In the same visage, women tend to be more tolerant of polygamy and homosexuality. Polygamy offers a greater chance at an alpha male, and reduced sexual labor. Male homosexuality is thought to remove lower-value men from the mating market, and gays tend to be viewed as non-threatening. Western feminists have a tendency to taunt self-proclaimed incels to become gay, in an amazing doublethink against a long-standing narrative of “born this way”.

    It is also true that women tend to engage in public slut-shaming, far more than men. This is also an action of protectionism or “mate guarding” as RedPillers call it.

  87. 216 says:
    @notanon

    The spread of smartphones and wireless coverage has already occurred even in warzones like Somalia. If titillation was sapping energy levels, I’d think we’d already be seeing signs of it.

    The AI needed for a realistic sexbot could presumably affect the status of automation in other industries. A bot able to simulate sex acts might be a by-product of bots designed to work in nursing homes and hospitals.

    • Replies: @Feryl
  88. 216 says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Female sexbots already exist, with minimal social condemnation.

    We just avoid calling them sexbots.

  89. @Rosie

    “A prostitute will only consider men of means, and if they become unable to provide for her, she’s off. A real wife chooses her husband out of genuine regard and affection, and remains with him irrespective of his economic resources.”

    A “real wife” chooses a mate on far more factors than “genuine regard and affection.” There’s looks, income, social status, height, family background, and education among other things. A lot of men don’t measure up when it comes to those qualifications.

    Women don’t see these “invisible” men because they block them on dating sites, where you can digitally adjust your qualifications for education, height, etc.

    So what do we do with these men who are “unqualified” for today’s women? Considering women “marry up” and prefer men who are higher status then themselves, today’s super-educated crop of women are leaving more of these men behind than ever. What becomes of the men?

    Well, for one thing, prostitutes won’t dismiss them if they’re under 6′ or didn’t go to a name university. So the guy who isn’t Mr. Big but manages to save some money at least has access to a woman then.

    As for wives remaining with their husbands regardless of the man’s financial status, this might have been true before the no-fault divorce era. But this isn’t the case in a country where half of marriage end in divorce and the majority of those divorces are initiated by women.

    I’ve seen instances of women “branch swinging” from one high-status man to the next. When Man #1 is deemed disposable because of health or job problems, she jumps to Man #2 — often with the kids in tow. And I’ve noticed conservative white women tend to be pretty good at this.

    To bring together both these issues, I would consider things like this to be a form of “soft prostitution.” When a woman trades her looks for a place to live with one man followed by the next, that’s essentially trading sex for resources. No-fault divorce has given us a society teeming with “soft prostitutes” in all classes, so it’s disingenuous to complain about hookers when you might just have a woman living next door who is one in everything but name.

    It’s not in the nature of most women to have empathy for men. Women tend to care about children, while men care about women. Because of this, the law should consider the fates of “surplus men” who have been left behind. Having a high amount of frustrated, alienated men with no families and no stake in society isn’t good for anyone.

  90. 216 says:
    @EastKekistani

    Pron still relates to a dependence on women, mediated through a digital format.

    MGTOW has the concept of the “anger phase” and pron might be considered part of that.

    While digitization has wrecked the profit margins and concentrated the industry into a monopoly, usage still provides enough ad dollars to keep it spinning.

    As a matter of social concern, individually we should do our part towards starving the beast by not consuming.

  91. 216 says:
    @anon

    Presumably when realistic sexbots are built, they will at first be too expensive for all but upper-class individuals. So instead there will be either brothels, or Uber-like rentals.

    Female sexbots, known to us as “vibrators” can be purchased online, and enable total privacy. Jeff Bezos did a lot to mainstream them.

    The male equivalent is more technologically difficult, because of “visual requirements”, and it won’t be as private. So that will reduce consumption, unless prices drop and there is a tolerance for “used models”.

    Feminist reaction at the present has focused on the idea of “exploitation” and that this will “teach men how to rape”. The more powerful narrative of social paternalism for the benefit of male psychology hasn’t been engaged, because feminists hate beta males. It also raises uncomfortable ideas that women “owe men”.

    If Prostitutes could be paid off with UBI, I doubt they will raise much concern with being displaced by robots. I speculate that the AI needed to make a sexbot will be a product of industrial automation in other sectors like healthcare.

    A lot of current feminist discourse is about policing male behavior, mainly through the use of public shaming. This will eventually reach the law of diminishing returns. The interesting question will be whether feminism moves in the direction of incentives for pro-female behavior, or towards chemical interdiction of “toxicity”.

  92. iffen says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    John Burns, if you could shake your Jewphobia, you might have prospects.

  93. iffen says:
    @Truth

    The comment section is an intellectual free-fire zone. God-damnit, I love it sometimes.

    Kek can take it as well as you and I, but the schoolmarm wants a dignified discussion space.

    Something that won’t frighten the carriage horses while the owners are reading. I support it.

  94. Feryl says:
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    Stuff like gonorrhea and chlamydia is nowhere near as common now as it was in the 70’s or 80’s, so we can safely say that most hetero men are not using prostitutes these days(however, prostitutes and gay men, as usual, still suffer from high rates of STDs).

    In general, sex and interpersonal violence was a much bigger “problem” among normies in the mid 1970’s-mid 1990’s then it has been in the current era, or in say, the 1950’s and 60’s. STDs, serial killing, robberies, child abuse, etc. seem like cyclical phenomona that have very little to do with legislative policies, or political trends (after all, FDR’s America with it’s fairly mild controls on behavior experienced swiftly declining interpersonal violence, crime, and sex, while Reagan and George HW Bush’s vengeful America was extremely violent and sexualized, more so than even Kennedy or LBJ’s America). Gen X-ers, who were children and teenagers in the 70’s and 80’s, are of course well aware of how much more dangerous 1990 was in comparison to say, 1960. The 1960’s were a tentative dip into a Dionysian cycle that didn’t hit it’s full stride until Carter was in office, and didn’t fully end until George W was elected.

    Eventually Gen Z is going to ignore the warnings of the Boomers and X-ers who reached adulthood during the Dionysian cycle, and once we reach this generation critical mass Gen Z will begin another Dionysian cycle, and we won’t realize the folly of this until we’re 15-20 years into it (much like how society generally was accepting of Boomer decadence* in the 1970’s, then swiftly turned against it under Reagan). Millennials will sometimes “try their hand” at wilder behavior in the 2030’s and 2040’s, but like the middle aged Silents of the 70’s and 80’s, are mostly going to be just too old to do that much partying or fighting.

    Boomers have higher partner counts, higher rates of divorce, and higher rates of alcoholism than Silents, X-ers, and Millennials. This suggests that having a young adulthood in the late 60’s/1970’s (when society gave the greenlight to decadence) left a residue that Boomers have never been able to remove. Interesting how it took two all time peaks in crime (in 1980 and 1991) to make Americans become so ashamed of sex, violence, and drugs during the Reagan, Bush, and Clinton eras.

  95. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    and am foiled by the very men I try to defend

    I told you so, but you didn’t listen to me. The Aryan right is not “good” for women.

    • Replies: @Talha
  96. iffen says:
    @AaronB

    The insistence on real affection

    Only a moonbeam collector could think that people believe that they can pay for “real affection.”

    • Replies: @AaronB
  97. iffen says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Alfred, I know that “opening up” is the thing these days, but don’t go for it, keep a lot of this stuff to yourself.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  98. Talha says:
    @iffen

    You ever see Bone Tomahawk – especially that scene where they are escaping the cave and they come across the pregnant “women”?

    I recommend the movie if you like Westerns. It’s a weird one, but not bad in the Western/Horror genre.

    Anyway – yeah – that depicts a violently predatory patriarchy if I’ve ever seen one.

    Peace.

  99. Feryl says:
    @216

    But the compulsion to want titillation, and act on one’s impulses, is quite low right now. We are certainly far away from the 1970’s, when Richard Dawson could host Family Feud and kiss all the women contestants. And the prevailing attitude (among Boomers) in the 70’s was that STDs were a mere nuisance that would only temporarily stop you from sleeping around.

    The MeToo movement, as a moral imperative, only resonates with Millennials and the most conservative X-ers who regretted the Bacchanalian climate of the late 1960’s-early 1990’s or never experienced it as adults in the first place (The Boomer women complaining of mistreatment in the 70’s and 80’s are only going along with it as also rans who don’t want to be seen as tolerating the worst abuses perpetrated by depraved sex maniacs who got their start in the 1960’s-1980’s).

    And of course, most of the biggest villains in the me-too era are late Silents, Boomers, and early Gen X-ers, with the vast majority of men born before 1940 and after 1970 doing a good job of not pawing and slobbering over whoever happens to be turning them on at the moment (and those born after 1970 who get busted stand out for being outliers within their generation). If you reached age 30 before 1970 or after 2000, odds are that you have a higher level of behavioral inhibition than people whose young adulthoods occurred mostly or entirely in 1970-2000.

  100. Feryl says:
    @Anon

    They gave up on trying to “beat” internet porn because the truth is that most people use it, and it doesn’t physically hurt people (whereas drugs, violence, and prostitution all do immediate damage to the bodies of those involved).

    Frankly, people “turning to” internet porn is vastly preferable to the old school method of desperately horny people: actually having causal sex with strangers, sometimes via the exchange of money for services rendered (e.g., prostitution).

    The late 18th and very early 19th century were also a period in which men often struggled to find stable romantic partners, but back then, there wasn’t widespread porn, so men had little choice but to pay for sex in order to not be plagued by unresolved lust.

    You can’t destroy the marriage prospects of 50-60% of younger men (many men born since the mid-1970’s are flat out not getting married) and then try to extirpate prostitution (in the past) or porn (the present). We were able to largely crack down on vice in the 1940’s and 50’s precisely because most men got married at a young age, and could reasonably expect to have a wife who fulfilled his needs.

    Porn is damaging to kids? No, what’s damaging to “kids” is allowing them to grow up in a society that doesn’t allow most young men to develop well-paid careers, doesn’t keep the mentally ill off of streets, doesn’t punish corrupt elites, and so forth.

    • Replies: @216
    , @Pericles
  101. @EastKekistani

    Don’t put undue emphasis on personal consciousness. Survival is a means for allowing reproduction, but reproduction is the telos.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  102. 216 says:

    The MeToo movement, as a moral imperative, only resonates with Millennials and the most conservative X-ers who regretted the Bacchanalian climate of the late 1960’s-early 1990’s or never experienced it as adults in the first place

    I welcolmed the exposure in Hollyweird, while regretting the electoral damage to the GOP.

    A lot of GenXers in the Dissident movements seem to loathe the left’s moralizing tendencies, dismissing it as “Neo-Victorianism”. I like that term, and wish that we unironically “respected women”.

    Declining female happiness is a defining feature of Gen Y/Z, the product of exaggerated expectations via the university system and the dating apps, when debt and alpha widowhood being the results. Chalk it up to failed/divorced Boomer parents, or to a rash of “toxic masculinity”; regardless of the cause, the mainstream Right tends to use ineffective shaming/bootstraps language on women. And it is worse for us in that the Right tends to promote women on physical appearance rather than on competence (see Maddow, Rachel).

    • Replies: @Feryl
  103. Rosie says:
    @Michael S

    Can you articulate a definition of sexual perversion, or is that also just a vague emotion?

    I’d call it a God-given intuition.

    they all fall off a cliff after about a dozen, and by the time a woman hits 20 or 30 partners, they’ve basically flatlined.

    My understanding is that this is not true, but I will have to find the data yet again.

  104. Feryl says:
    @AaronB

    The differences arise from Caucasians having a much greater sense of individual dignity than sub-Saharan blacks and Asians. It’s interesting that in Europe and the MENA, sexual behavior is often regarded as highly personal, subject to heavy regulation, and something over which to feel great shame and embarrassment. Sex is idealized as being “only” acceptable between two life-long partners, and anything outside that context is shameful and degrading.

    It’s not a “Western” thing, in the sense that Muslims are even more neurotic about sex than Europeans are (to the point that in some Muslim societies their is great pressure on women to not show their hair in public, lest it trigger lusting men).

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @anon
  105. Rosie says:

    There are a lot of replies here, and they look quite good. I hope to reply to every one of them, but it will take a bit of time.

  106. @anon

    A lot to think about there, thanks.

    • Replies: @anon
  107. 216 says:
    @Feryl

    Porn is damaging to kids? No, what’s damaging to “kids” is allowing them to grow up in a society that doesn’t allow most young men to develop well-paid careers, doesn’t keep the mentally ill off of streets, doesn’t punish corrupt elites, and so forth.

    There are some good reasons why we should limit the screen time of minors. Where this fails is in the expectation that legislated virtue can displace parenting.

    The UK “age-gate pron” law will make an interesting case study. Will it be successful in curbing minor usage? Or will minors presumably work around the law by sharing images.

    Welfare statism and equal pay regulations make paternal involvement a “want” rather than a “need” for many women.

    • Replies: @Feryl
  108. Rosie says:
    @Michael S

    Because as long as they’re in place, whores receive a temporary but significant advantage over women who exercise self-control.

    I don’t see any such advantage, and I don’t accept your division of women into “whores” and “nonwhores.” Indeed, it looks suspiciously like a divide-and-rule ploy to me. I’ll set that concern aside for now.

    All that said, I do think your proposal for shot-gun marriages is on the right track. Indeed, part of the reason that single mothers need protection is precisely because the fathers do not marry them and form a proper family. There appears to be some sort of assumption that I do not believe women should ever be held to any standards at all, but this is not true. As far as I’m concerned, if a woman has sex with a man, and then refuses to marry him, I would wonder why precisely she had sex with him if she didn’t think he was good enough to marry.

    • Replies: @216
  109. @anon

    According to the GSS, 14% of men have “ever paid for sex”. There isn’t any question about frequency, though. One-in-seven isn’t “most men”, but it’s not an insignificant number of men, either.

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @anon
  110. L Woods says:
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    while men care about women

    Not this man. Like so much of modern America, they aren’t deserving your consideration or loyalty.

    Having a high amount of frustrated, alienated men with no families and no stake in society isn’t good for anyone.

    It’s good for women, who get off on their misery and unrequited desire, and it’s (temporarily at least) good for Chad who gets to clean up the entirety of the spoils.

  111. Rosie says:
    @EastKekistani

    History informs me that if you got murdered in an ancient war your wife was likely to willingly submit to your murderer and forgot about you no matter how much you did for her.

    Nonsense.

  112. Feryl says:
    @216

    “A lot of GenXers in the Dissident movements seem to loathe the left’s moralizing tendencies, dismissing it as “Neo-Victorianism”. I like that term, and wish that we unironically “respected women”.”

    Well, Gen X itself does it’s own moralizing and preaching, as anyone who lived through the 1990’s understands quite well (when Gen X developed it’s own “call out culture” of complaining that Silents and Boomers were too hedonistic, selfish, and materialistic; Gen X-ers basically killed the culture of “rock and roll” by insisting that “real” artists have nothing in common with David Lee Roth prancing around. At the end of the day, though, X-ers were still doing more than their fair share of sleeping around, drugs, partying, etc. It’s just that a lot of X-ers acted so depressive about it that they figured that what they did was “deeper” than all the highfalutin bullshit the Boomers did in the 60’s and 70’s. Of course, mistaking a depressive affect for intellectual and moral worth was probably the worst flaw of 1990’s pop culture (granted, by 1997 most people had given up on trying to elevate Gen X culture as somehow smarter or cooler than Boomer culture).

    But, as I stated above, most mid-late period X-ers did feel legitimately grossed out by behavioral excess, which is why they along with Millennials completely destroyed “rock and roll” culture in the 2000’s (thus, X-ers and Millennials have lower divorce rates and lower rates of alcohol use compared to late Boomers, who are the worst behaved cohort).

  113. Rosie says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    when 70% of divorce is initiated by women.

    Initiating a divorce does not make one not a real wife. It only makes you not a real wife if you leave your husband because of a financial setback. It is true that women initiate most divorces, but it is also true that men are most likely to do things that lead to divorce: drugs, compulsive gambling, adultery, etc.

    Back on topic, I think the chaps are going to have to wait until the Chinese, who like to play with real DNA, develop the Stepford 2030 human/computer hybrid- warm, living, with all the attributes which pull the male evolutionary mating triggers, but with the female evolutionary mating strategy/psychology (which looks and tests for the best she can get) disabled.

    Still waiting to see evidence that women are choosier about marriage partners than men. It seems to me that they are willing to have sex with lots of women, but get awfully particular when asked to pick one mate and settle down.

    • Replies: @216
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    , @Feryl
  114. @SunBakedSuburb

    The succubus will take care of that.

    Though I’m no expert on the terminology, I think “cranking” refers not just to sexual release but also to an attempt at positive mood stimulation. Maybe it’s healthier if it’s on a schedule as opposed to just doing it whenever the urge to strikes.

  115. Rosie says:

    I’ve seen instances of women “branch swinging” from one high-status man to the next. When Man #1 is deemed disposable because of health or job problems, she jumps to Man #2 — often with the kids in tow. And I’ve noticed conservative white women tend to be pretty good at this.

    I have never seen any such thing among conservative White women (the only kind I associate with).

    It’s not in the nature of most women to have empathy for men. Women tend to care about children, while men care about women. Because of this, the law should consider the fates of “surplus men” who have been left behind. Having a high amount of frustrated, alienated men with no families and no stake in society isn’t good for anyone.

    I reject your view that women have no empathy for men, and I certainly think society should be concerned about men who can’t find mates. The problem, as I have detailed elsewhere, is that I am not convinced there are any such men. I understand they can’t find women they want, but that is not the same thing as not being able to find one at all. Half of men are below average, and will have to settle for a below average mate.

    I indicated the other day that women might be more acceptable to men if they had access to appetite suppressants to help them look more like porn stars. For that I was roundly ridiculed and dismissed as a “clown,” with nary a defender in sight.

    • Replies: @216
  116. 216 says:
    @Rosie

    Still waiting to see evidence that women are choosier about marriage partners than men. It seems to me that they are willing to have sex with lots of women, but get awfully particular when asked to pick one mate and settle down.

    I generally compliment men for being strict with their gatekeeping role for committment. That said, there are less social expectations in mainstream culture for a man to commit.

    Women at a certain age are willing to settle, because there is an internal female hierarchy around marriage. This hierarchy does not exist with men, but there is a tendency for married women to only want to socialize with other married couples, and push men away from their single peers.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  117. Feryl says:
    @216

    Screen time and porno is a distinction with a difference. Autism rates have soared since the the early 90’s, basically paralelling the rise of neurotic Boomer/X-er parents who don’t want their kids to be roaming around outside. But in return for physical safety, we’ve evidently traded the traditional path of development which prevents autism.

    It can’t be emphasized enough that Boomers and X-ers, who by gawd despise what society has become over the last 30-40 years (see: the massive rise in corruption, inept leadership, etc.), while also fearing that their kids will try and recreate the Dionysian atmosphere of circa 1970-1990, do not want their kids to have anything to do with the outside world…..A much different sentiment than the one that youngsters remember from the 1940’s-1970’s, when kids were supposed to play around, and fool around care free. Naturally, a lot of Boomers will make airheaded claims about “crime being worse than ever before”, but truth be told, parents for the last 30 years generally assume that their kids will be much better off getting a “scripted” childhood, free of unwanted intrusions or improvisation (and god forbid that someone “touches” your child, since “society” let so many monsters get away with it (meanwhile, mass incarceration, sparked by the Jimmy Carter era peak in crime, has been off and running since the later 80’s, while actual abuse of children peaked in 1992 and has been declining ever since, what with society erecting thick layers of bubble wrap around Millennials and Gen Z ever since Clinton took office).

    • Replies: @216
  118. 216 says:
    @Rosie

    I have never seen any such thing among conservative White women (the only kind I associate with).

    What Metropolitan Statistical Area do you reside in?

    As an aside: To all, whenever debating with a leftist on racial matter, always demand their census tract.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  119. AaronB says:
    @Feryl

    No, shame about sex really is most developed in the West. It doesn’t have anything to do with dignity of the individual, either. It seems to have to do with the generally unbalanced nature of life in the West, with the suppression of the emotional and aesthetic side of man, as well as his instinctive and animal nature.

    Asian and Muslim countries in this respect are more balanced, and display a saner acceptance of the full human being. In these countries people are outwardly quite conservative – Japanese and Korean girl band members are often expected to stay single and not have sex before marriage, and if caught doing so, will face massive negative consequences socially.

    In this manner, the claims of social propriety are preserved, and a healthy sexual order is maintained for the purpose of forming stable families.

    On the other hand, outside the limelight and done in a discreet manner, all manner of prostitution, keeping of mistresses, and similar things are socially acceptable if not flaunted. In this way, the human being is not repressed and his full nature is catered to.

    Europeans chafing under the sexual repression of their homes started travelling to the Muslim Near East, where they found a similar arrangement of outward observance of the proprieties in order to maintain a healthy social order with a frank acceptance of discreet sex not found in Europe at the time.

    Freud was wrong about most things, but his basic idea that Europe was trying to disown an entire side of life – not just “dirty” sex, but everything supposedly primitive and instinctive, what Jung called the Shadow (and unlike Freud Jung developed this idea in genuinely fruitful ways) – and this attempt at repression was deeply unhealthy, was right.

    And aside from Asia and the Near East, European aristocratic sexual life was far more liberated and less ashamed of sex than that of the middle classes, the natural guardians of social morality.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  120. Two questions:

    Are romance novels “pr0n”?

    And what about mainstream novels that are dirtier than the pornographic ones of 5o years ago they sold at the train station?

    In the late 1970s I found a copy of Her Bestial Dreams and gave it to a shipmate, who read it. (He said it was rather obvious that it changed writers about halfway through. They were the ultimate hacks.)

    But Googling the title doesn’t get me close to the real thing. Instead, it shows a whole lot of contemporary fiction.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    , @anon
  121. Rosie says:
    @216

    Sorry, but men are choosier than women when it comes to actual messaging:

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @216
  122. Rosie says:
    @216

    What Metropolitan Statistical Area do you reside in?

    I’m not about to tell you that.

    • Replies: @216
  123. @AaronB

    …European aristocratic sexual life was far more liberated and less ashamed of sex than that of the middle classes, the natural guardians of social morality.

    Sexual impropriety is most deleterious to the middle classes, who have to behave to get ahead. Or even to stay put. And I don’t mean just outward appearances. Divorce is brutal.

    The real randiness is found at the top and the bottom, where they either have too much to lose, or nothing.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  124. AaronB says:
    @iffen

    Take it up with the Asians, not my culture.

    I do not support emulating Asian culture, although I do think there are lessons to be learned there, and intelligently adapted.

    • Replies: @216
    , @neutral
  125. L Woods says:

    When are you people going to learn not to feed women the attention they crave? This on a dissident right website, no less.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  126. @Audacious Epigone

    That’s actually a claim that is both secular and very religion-like. Evolution which is a blind process does not inherently come with any value preference. You were not born with the duty that you must reproduce.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @iffen
  127. AaronB says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    I agree.

    It goes beyond sexual morality – the middle classes suffer terribly from status anxiety in general. They are the least free of the three classes.

    And the upper classes are not the merely wealthy. Money can be lost or taken from you anytime. The real upper classes are those that exist in a protective class network that spans generations – you lose money, a position will always be found for you. They take care if each other.

  128. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    It turns out the claim that women are all chasing the same 20% of men is mere projection. It is men who are all competing for the same women.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090626153511.htm

    • Replies: @216
    , @notanon
  129. @SunBakedSuburb

    Guys need to expel the demon juice to keep the prostate healthy.

    I thought that’s what wet dreams were for.

    Tears clean the tear ducts. So you should torture yourself to bring them about?

    “Masturbation can make you blind” can be seen as quite true, in a spiritual sense. I remember Dr Fleming of the Rockford Institute quipping, “You can’t ask a girl out for a date?”

  130. Rosie says:
    @L Woods

    When are you people going to learn not to feed women the attention they crave? This on a dissident right website, no less.

    I will renew my offer to go away and never come back so long as the lying about women on DR websites stops for good. I have better things to do, I assure you.

  131. AaronB says:
    @EastKekistani

    You live in Asia, right? Tell us when is the last time you or someone you know went to a prostitute. Last week?

    You are MGTOW and don’t have a girlfriend, but I’m sure you avail your self of your culture’s resources for dealing with such a predicament.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  132. 216 says:
    @Feryl

    what with society erecting thick layers of bubble wrap around Millennials and Gen Z ever since Clinton took office).

    The root of SJW culture is the anti-bullying programs in schools, which I encountered starting in primary school during the late ’90s. Some conservatives embarass themselves by making unironic pro-bullying arguements as a way to argue that kids weren’t toughened enough.

    Naturally, a lot of Boomers will make airheaded claims about “crime being worse than ever before”, but truth be told, parents for the last 30 years generally assume that their kids will be much better off getting a “scripted” childhood, free of unwanted intrusions or improvisation

    Confirm, my Boomer father normally rode his bike with friends as a preteen across the West Side of Cleveland, during the objectively more dangerous late 1960s-early 1970s. I’ve never even heard of a mugging occuring in the exurban neighborhood we live in, but this would have never been accepted for me.

    One side effect of contained kids, is unlocked medicine cabinets being a source of prescription opiates.

    But in return for physical safety, we’ve evidently traded the traditional path of development which prevents autism.

    What are the causes of autism? The suspected vaccine preservatives were removed, ruling that out (unsure of how an immune injection could alter brain chemistry/shape). Autism is known to be common in males more than females, but this is normally not commented upon. I recall a link with births at a later age.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    , @Feryl
  133. @Anon

    That’s a legitimate concern.

    Groids are already trying to sexually fuck up NE Asia. Their low numbers do restrict the damage. However the per capita harm caused by groids in NE Asia is very high.

  134. 216 says:
    @Rosie

    That data is pre-Tinder, and collected during a time when smartphones were still a novelty. It should be rejected on that basis alone.

    • LOL: Rosie
  135. @AaronB

    I don’t live in NE Asia now. Only one dude I know admits having visited a prostitute. Since most people are still married / dating they definitely will never admit having visited prostitutes because ladies definitely hate cheating a lot.

    MGTOW is growing in NE Asia but it is definitely not socially acceptable right now. Neither trads nor women like us.

  136. notanon says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    i did it once just to see what it was like – never had any desire to do it again.

  137. @iffen

    I don’t know what you mean, Iffen. This is stuff is not too personal for me right now. I just see the way things work, especially with the 5 decade-long experiment in feminism and matriarchy and call out things not working as planned (by whom, if anybody?)

  138. 216 says:
    @Rosie

    I live in Cleveland–Elyria Metropolitan Statistical Area

    This isn’t hard, and carries no risk of doxxing. But the answer is relevant, because if you live in Utah your lived experiences are abnormal and must be discounted as such.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  139. Rosie says:
    @216

    This isn’t hard, and carries no risk of doxxing.

    Hell no.

    • Replies: @216
  140. Feryl says:

    Haidt et al have said that Gen Z differs from those born before 1996, because they got an even more stifling childhood than Millennials did, if that’s possible. Once parenting became dominated by late Boomers and early X-ers, in the 2000’s, society became even more hostile to the idea of letting your kids roam free. It’s striking how much naivete there is within these generations, about their conception of what “quality” parenting is. Beginning with late Boomers, each Western generation has had fewer practical skills, and a more depressed attitude, than the preceding generation. While Gen X could make a legit argument that increased status striving meant that society was telling them that it would no longer be as necessary for the average person to be able to sew or do basic carpentry (since time was so precious that you’d just buy something new or pay someone else to do these things for you), at least Gen X had freedom to choose……Millennials and especially Gen Z could plausibly complain that their parents were flat out not letting them grow up like normal people are supposed to.

    Well gee whiz, when society (older adults) is telling you that only losers work with their hands, so get cracking on a professional career, while also drilling into their children that wandering off for a couple hours is sure to lead to a kidnapping, is it any wonder than Gen Z is so psychologically fucked up? Millennials at least had the GHW Bush and Clinton era, which was when things were actually dangerous to a large degree, so their parents didn’t seem like total lunatics to want their kids off the street. But Gen Z, on the other hand, has to feel as if their parents went on some psychotic break, since Gen Z has parents who consistently describe an outside world which doesn’t actually exist. Moreover, Gen Z has parents who didn’t give them the opportunity to even experience the outside world, in the first place.

  141. @Days of Broken Arrows

    Hey, good comment there. I just used up my [AGREE] about 2 minutes ago.

  142. 216 says:
    @AaronB

    I do not support emulating Asian culture, although I do think there are lessons to be learned there, and intelligently adapted.

    I agree. The Dissident Right should consider it shameful that Asians display more pro-social behavior and economic attainment in data indicators than whites do. In contrast to the over-commented BMWF pairing, there is minimal questioning of the far more common WMAF pairing, which tends to be based in the illusion that AF is “more traditional”.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @EastKekistani
  143. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    the claim is that as the middle class shrinks 80% of women are chasing the top 20% of husband material

    husband material != physical attractiveness alone

    • Replies: @Rosie
  144. 216 says:
    @Rosie

    You posted data to counter me, that ends up confirming my narrative.

    The cost of messaging on OKC is free, which is a reason why the site went into decline. Women rated as 8 and 9 by men receive an avalanche of messaging, which annoys them and can be justifiably called harassment. The Tinder and Bumble apps require a match to have a conversation.

    Your graphs also don’t show the number of messages, which is higher among men than women.

    Still waiting to see evidence that women are choosier about marriage partners than men. It seems to me that they are willing to have sex with lots of women, but get awfully particular when asked to pick one mate and settle down.

    It is staring you in the face, but you refuse to see lest it undermine your People’s Front of Judea White Nationalist Feminism.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  145. Rosie says:
    @216

    You posted data to counter me, that ends up confirming my narrative.

    Liar.

    • Replies: @216
  146. Feryl says:
    @216

    Well, back in the 70’s parents didn’t spend every waking hour in terror that their kid would turn out to be a “loser”. Seriously, Silent parents in the 60’s and 70’s spent a lot of time playing bridge, or whatever the hell it was they were doing with their ample free time, rather than worrying themselves sick that their kids weren’t “making the grade”.

    Boomer and especially Gen X parents are absolutely obsessed with having the “best” possible outcomes with their kids, e.g. they all become wealthy/respected professionals or at least marry into wealth/prestige. Naturally, your child’s life being ended altogether by a bad driver or a sicko predator will completely obliterate the possiblity of one’s ego being boosted by a successful son or daughter.

    I think that much as one could say the greatest failing of the GI generation was in being far too gentle with their bratty Boomer kids, the greatest failing of Gen X will be in psychologically disfiguring their children with absurdly over-sized expectations that they “stay safe” and “do well” in life. We also see that many X-ers were frauds all along; they care as much about status as Boomers do, but the difference is that Boomers were less likely to rely on their own kids for glory.

  147. AaronB says:
    @216

    Agree about the pro social deficit. Western countries however perform better economically than East Asian countries, although the Asians in the West perform somewhat better than whites in the cognitive middle, and worse than whites at the cognitive top (in non-academic settings). But they are a highly selected bunch.

    But whites definitely do have an ambition deficit, and that is a problem.

    • Replies: @216
  148. 216 says:
    @Rosie

    You’re running a narrative that men need to lower their standards.

    Something about the “beam in your eye”

    • Replies: @Rosie
  149. Rosie says:
    @notanon

    the claim is that as the middle class shrinks 80% of women are chasing the top 20% of husband material

    husband material != physical attractiveness alone

    Are you claiming that only 20% of men are considered “husband material” by women? If so, that is a more modest claim than others have made, but it is still not supported by the data.

    • Replies: @notanon
  150. notanon says:

    a big part of what’s gone wrong between the sexes is the result of the economic squeeze that has taken place over the last 50 years.

    in particular we now have a situation where a majority of women are competing for the minority of men who can still provide a middle class lifestyle leading to the thot-roastie pipeline on the one hand and bitter incels and feminists on the other.

    the solution is political – we need a polity where affordable family formation is a priority, which requires replacing the current ruling class.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @L Woods
    , @Feryl
  151. Rosie says:
    @216

    You’re running a narrative that men need to lower their standards.

    They don’t have to, but then if they choose to chase women out of their league, their loneliness is not my problem.

  152. Rosie says:
    @notanon

    a big part of what’s gone wrong between the sexes is the result of the economic squeeze that has taken place over the last 50 years.

    Yes, this is what I thought you meant, and there may be some truth to this. In a more immediate sense, I’m not sure women are generally aware of just how bad the job market is for men right now. Some may be wrongly assuming that men are unmotivated when in fact they are just lost.

    As for me, my husband didn’t have anything when we got married. I assumed we would build a life together and that’s what we did.

    • Replies: @notanon
  153. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    it’s just a random number to illustrate the point.

    the divergence will have started back when the economic squeeze first started so for the sake of argument say in 1965 it was 80% men could provide a middle class lifestyle (at some level) making the balance 80% women chasing 80% men and then over time it became
    – 80% chasing 75%
    – 80% chasing 70%
    etc
    as the middle class got progressively squeezed.

  154. Feryl says:
    @216

    Autism seems to be caused in large part by a lack of important socialization that children are supposed to experience at an early stage. Well, at least the milder forms of autism, anyway. In America, places with worse weather generally have higher levels of autism, suggesting that denying kids the opportunity to spend a lot of time outdoors, and experience a wide variety of situations and encounters, stunts social skills and psychological development. Of course, we can expect “free range” kids to have more frequent accidents and run-ins with unsavory characters, but trying too hard to remove kids from “dangerous” situations can backfire. Gen Z has major levels of depression and anxiety, because their parents often didn’t allow them experience stressful situations on their own. Thus, they are hyper sensitive to anything that makes them feel hurt or uncomfortable. Interestingly, Gen X in the 90’s started to buy into the narrative that experiencing pain/abuse as a youngster leads to PTSD, thus letting us understand just how Gen X would make the opposite mistake of never letting their own kids be traumatized. It’s also interesting that while Silents and Boomers never questioned the idea that they were superiors to their kids, we see Gen X make the mistake that the GI Gen did: treating your children as equals, rather than subordinates. But for the Boomers, the 50’s and 60’s were a much better time in this country to be young. Whereas the 2010’s have been hellish for Gen Z, who all feel pressure to “win”.

  155. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    I’m not sure women are generally aware of just how bad the job market is for men right now. Some may be wrongly assuming that men are unmotivated when in fact they are just lost.

    yes

    As for me, my husband didn’t have anything when we got married. I assumed we would build a life together and that’s what we did.

    same for me and wife but in our case when we started out there were more jobs than people and cheap, plentiful housing.

    and even then we eventually got into a situation where “good schools” made us buy a place beyond our means just to make sure the kids were safe and the financial burden of that almost led to us splitting up.

    • Replies: @Feryl
  156. L Woods says:
    @notanon

    Women aren’t competing for middle class providers — those are a dime a dozen even now, and they can be sure that one or (many) more dopes will offer them cash and prizes for their vaunted accomplishment of being born with a uterus. What they’re really out for are the minority of retrograde social parasites the commonly referred to as “alphas.”

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @Rosie
    , @216
  157. notanon says:
    @L Woods

    Women aren’t competing for middle class providers

    intelligent women who want children are

    • Replies: @L Woods
    , @Curious Person
  158. Feryl says:
    @notanon

    Actually, it’s people born after about 1972 who have had it really tough. Wages didn’t really start to plummet until the 1990’s (just ask your typical Gen X-er). Living expenses didn’t really start to soar until the later 90’s. On various attitudinal and ideological measures, the key cohort”split” seems to occur in the early to mid 70’s. Look at any workplace, or in any political discussion, and you generally find that people born in the 1960’s generally side with older generations, those born in the Carter era or thereafter tend to side with younger people, while those born from 1970-1976 are a cross between older and younger generations. To put it another way, which decades do you remember? People who have a strong memory of the 70’s are “old-school”, those whose memory doesn’t go back before 1980 are the “new school”. People who have slight memory of the 1970’s (e..g, those born during the decade) are cross between the two main groups.

    All this is to say that 1980 appears to be the key year. Not 1945, or 1960, or 1968, or 1972, or 1976. The 1980’s was the decade when most Americans agreed that signs of corruption/greed/inequality/shallowness, etc. were becoming noticeably worse, and Reagan’s tax cuts for the wealthy were the catalyst for a new era of elite arrogance. Going by cycle theory, we’d expect a similar generational divide tracing back to the 1880’s (notably, the Lost Generation grew up during our descent into the first Gilded Age, and they were notoriously melancholy and nihilistic; I suspect that many Millennials will also share these traits, since they too were born during our descent into a new Gilded Age).

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @notanon
  159. Feryl says:
    @notanon

    Has trying to give “our” kids the best possible situation really been the brightest idea, in hindsight?

    • Replies: @notanon
  160. notanon says:
    @Feryl

    Actually, it’s people born after about 1972 who have had it really tough

    i pick 1965 as a nod to what i think the root cause was but yes you’re right it took some years for wages to flat-line.

    • Replies: @Feryl
  161. Rosie says:
    @L Woods

    Women aren’t competing for middle class providers — those are a dime a dozen even now

    Are you quite serious? Home price inflation is outpacing wage growth in the only markets that are creating any jobs.

    https://www.attomdata.com/news/market-trends/home-sales-prices/q3-2018-home-affordability-report/

  162. 216 says:
    @AaronB

    Wrt, the ambition deficit, there’s a lot of truth to that. The presence of high-achieving Asian peers may demotivate white students who feel either culturally alienated, or unwilling to put their nose to the grindstone in the Tiger Mother style. But I think we see this unmotivated nature with US whites writ large, a multifacted cause.

    I encountered some lower-standards East Asians in high school, who were presumably the descendants of wealthier parents back home that valued a Western private school. Without domineering parents, they weren’t at the top, with the exception of one brilliant guy that was the only member of the class to be admitted to an Ivy.

    One difference may be that white parents place rather large emphasis on athletics, which is nearly absent among East/South Asians. I’m not sure if there is data collected on time spent on youth sports (which might clash with youth obesity data), but it was less present for my early-Millennial older cousins than it was for me. The athletics difference might go a way into explaining why whites do better in non-academic settings, with the additional impart that East/South Asians are unfamiliar with certain social norms, or possibly hold those norms in contempt.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  163. notanon says:
    @Feryl

    as an overall aim i’d say yes but the method we chose was all wrong because we didn’t realize we had a hostile elite who were betraying us.

    instead of trying to run ahead of the chasing monster we should have turned round and dealt with it.

  164. 216 says:
    @L Woods

    No

    Income inequality has been on a steady rise, and women are specially burdened with 2/3rds of the student loan debt, while being 3/5th of students and 1/2 the population.

    There are men in skilled blue-collar positions earning well, but the reason these positions pay well has to do with their undesirability, and the virtual absence of immigrant populations working in them. (The US has no equivalent to the UK Polish Plumber, Mexican illegals can’t do the licensed trades). The number of men in dead-end jobs probably outnumbers the amount in skilled blue-collar occupations.

    Your notion of alphas doesn’t fit with the manosphere norm. “Parasite” is not usually used to describe them, the alpha archetype is a leader of men which is amoral in nature dependent on the individual.

    When women “hit the wall”, they do become friendlier to lower-value beta males, which will benefit a surprising number of alleged Millennial incel in the 2020s. But I agree with you in cautioning men against pairing with these women.

    • Replies: @L Woods
  165. AaronB says:
    @216

    Definitely, Asian academic excellence is driven by Tiger Momming. That is a tremendous amount of pressure and generates incredible effort, and there is nothing comparable among whites at the moment. Although previous generations of whites may have had something similar.

    Asians also place greater importance on “formal” status signifiers and the appearance of status. I was reading an article recently about how Asians who are weak academically are more likely to prefer attending an elite school where they will be on the bottom and struggle, than one more matched to their level. Whites reported opposite preferences. The Asians candidly admitted that there is more status being at the bottom of an elite school, and that’s the priority.

    All that being said, whites shouldn’t celebrate their apathy – whites will have to start working hard again. The period after WW2, where whites could goof off and still be effortlessly dominant, is over. And a more normal competitive environment is replacing it. This is hardly tragic, and pre WW2 whites were more accustomed to work hard.

    We can find joy again in striving and performing, but for that our culture as a whole has to believe in itself again. And that will inevitably happen.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @Feryl
  166. @216

    The Dissident Right should consider it shameful that Asians display more pro-social behavior and economic attainment in data indicators than whites do.

    Well, I consider it shameful that NE Asian people are still underrepresented in the highest levels of science, still aren’t the richest countries in the world and does not have enough individualism.

    Yep we all get better over time when we are all racing to the top instead of the bottom.

    • Replies: @216
  167. @AaronB

    We can find joy again in striving and performing, but for that our culture as a whole has to believe in itself again. And that will inevitably happen.

    Good luck. I wish you guys the best.

    This is how the world improves. Stiff competition causes everyone to improve because everyone wants to be the best. This is just like how multipolar Europe got better and better over time in the past… Britain wanted to be better than France and Prussia. France wanted to be better than Britain and Prussia. Prussia wanted to be better than Britain and France. Everyone benefited not because everyone got to be #1 but because everyone improved faster as a result of competition.

    On the other hand without competition stagnancy is common. Imperial China was one the best examples of this phenomenon. When one person or group doesn’t have to do much to be #1 standards fall and everyone suffer in the long run.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  168. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Feryl

    Correct. Devout Muslims may even insist on “marrying” a prostitute, and then divorcing her immediately afterwards, to provide a thin fig-leaf of legitimacy covering their shameful act. They wouldn’t bother with the deception if they didn’t, deep down, feel bad about knobbing a prostitute.

  169. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    I’d feel more confident in this assessment of Asian men if it were coming from an Asian man, but judging by your name, it’s not.

    A lot of Western men’s experience of Asia is as a sex tourist, whether vicariously or otherwise. (Not that I’m accusing you…) This may lead them to think Asia is much more libertine than it is.

    I’d believe there was no shame in visiting a prostitute in Asia if (a) I knew nothing about human nature, or assumed it was fundamentally different in Asia, and (b) if Japanese porno didn’t pixellate the giblets. Clearly they’ve got some kind of hang-up.

    As for such shame being only recent in the West, that must mean that it was unremarkable of Jesus to consort with prostitutes. I’m not well-versed in Christianity, but wouldn’t that rather invert the point of that story?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @216
  170. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    double-post

  171. On the other hand instead of participating in the global competition for excellence Negroids tend to attempt to simply ruin the competition by shaming and penalizing competence. Since they perform really poorly in it in order to preserve their social status they simply discredit the legitimacy of the competition itself. It is not that much of a problem to not do well. After all one can improve over time especially in this age since genetic engineering is gradually becoming available. On the other hand attempting to ruin the competition should be discouraged because it harms everyone in the long run.

  172. Rosie says:
    @Michael S

    Ha! I think you have me confused with the MGTOW whiners. No shortage of whores here; you just refuse to abide by the word’s proper, biblical definition, and instead insist on one that involves a formal transaction with money changing hands.

    Michael, I wanted to add that I am particularly creeped out by modern whore-shaming precisely because the Biblical approach to the issue is now ignored.

    https://biblehub.com/john/8-11.htm

    The double standard has always existed, but the line between whore and non-whore is brighter among modern pseudotrads than it was among Medieval Christian’s, who knew perfectly well that God didn’t accept their double standards, and patrons would burn in hellfire just as hot as the prostitute herself.

    For this reason, I believe, the redeemed prostitute was a figure of veneration and great comfort to medieval sinners, all of whom knew they were equal in their sin.

    https://amedievalwomanscompanion.com/prostitute-saints/

  173. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    Most high status men use prostitutes.

    Openly?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  174. 216 says:
    @EastKekistani

    Every NE Asian country has a nuclear power plant, and all except North Korea have far superior passenger rail versus the US and arguably the EU as well.

    Science achievement is a product of excess wealth to be spent on research. Japan has started winning Nobels, and S. Korea should soon follow, it takes time to train the cadre of scientists and then make discoveries.

    The supposed Verban IQ difference in favor of S. Asians will probably lead to India hustling a larger share of future Nobels than might be expected.

    Hard to say why we’d want to see a more individualistic NE Asia, unless you really like personal firearms ownership. Sky-high female material expectations, in defiance of the wishes of elder generations, seem to be a root cause for low fertility rates. More individualism might mean more single mothers.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  175. Truth,

    I very much respect your intellect. Please respect my schoolmarmery–no racial slurs. Thanks!

  176. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Michael S

    I left out “albeit such a small increase in rape etc that it might not be noticed amongst various other effects”, but perhaps I shouldn’t’ve.

    Please note that I’m not saying “x causes y”, but rather that someone with a predisposition towards y who was too afraid to try it might acclimate themselves to it via x.

  177. AaronB says:
    @anon

    Well, consider it coming from Asian friends indirectly through me. You can also find videos on YouTube asking Japanese people what they think of prostitution. They admit its ubiquity, and even some of the women think it’s pretty much ok.

    The point is, its not flaunted. Its discreet private activity, at most with a bunch of friends. Social propriety – the promotion of stable families – has to be preserved. But a release valve for excess pressure is provided. But it’s a totally accepted activity with a long history – Japan has always had a “floating world”, a twilight demi-monde where temporary escape can be found from the harsh pressures of conscious daily life. And in that they are wiser than us.

    So that’s why Japanese poem pixelates the giblets. It is a nod to social propriety, and a rather amusing one in a country with such a large and varied porn industry.

    As for Jesus, consorting openly with prostitutes would be considered scandalous behavior in Asia today. Everything has its place, and is socially acceptable in its place. Violating this order is scandalous, but does mean said behavior is rejected in toto.

    By the way, in Asia women use male prostitutes just as much as men, and rich older women are just as likely to have young male boy toys. This crops up amusingly in Japanese dramas, and there are some interesting documentaries on YouTube and other places.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  178. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Ditto re: your blog

  179. AaronB says:
    @EastKekistani

    Well, the world does seem to work this way, and there is no use fighting it. Rather we have to accept it laughingly, with a good grace, and roll up your sleeves and get to it.

    As I told you on another thread and you disagreed, at bottom all is one, and opposites unite – to reject the competitive aspect of the world out of some dream of peace (as I once did) is to be too one-sided, and at bottom is not necessary.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  180. @Talha

    Don’t take my donning of this tunic emblazoned with the cross of St. George across the front the wrong way, friend, but–on guard!

    • LOL: Talha
  181. AaronB says:
    @anon

    Discreetly.

    But acceptably, totally.

    • Replies: @anon
  182. @Mark G.

    Your recollection for the US is nearly exactly what the GSS shows.

  183. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    You might rephrase what you said as “women don’t like to think of themselves as selling it”. Which might be rephrased again as, “they don’t like selling it”.

    Of course, if you’re going to reframe marriage as entirely transactional, men are selling something of themselves too, and I expect they don’t much like that, in the same way as above.

    “If it flies, floats, or _____, well you all have heard that before.” – actually, I had to google it. TIL, as they also say on the internet

  184. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Days of Broken Arrows

    Having a high amount of frustrated, alienated men with no families and no stake in society isn’t good for anyone.

    Tell that to cults, revolutionary movements, porn producers, drug and videogame manufacturers, bloggers…

  185. Anon[170]:

    Apologies for deleting your rather long comment, but no dehumanizing racial slurs (ie “muds”).

  186. 216 says:
    @anon

    The scandal of Jesus associating with prostitutes may have been linked to them not undergoing the ritual purification via the corrupt Temple priesthood. Prostitutes also may have been serving the occupying Roman Army. There was also an element of hypocrisy where customers of the prostitutes would engage in ritual killings of them.

    The theme is around forgiveness in place of ritual. It is often interpreted by moderns in the visage that bad behavior is to be excused instead of admonished, that Jesus was against the Pharisee class because they were “judgemental”. The element that the Pharisees went onto author the Talmud is downplayed or ignored altogether.

    The shame is rather recent in the US, perhaps not the wider West. Prior to the 60s Sexual Revolution, prostitutes were more common than today, and they were even more common in the 19th century and prior. (Trump’s grandfather managed a brothel in Alaska, which he euphemistically calls a restaurant). Medieval authors tended to view prostitution as a “necessary evil”. Making it illegal has its roots in Victorian Temperance movements.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Americas
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_South_America

    In areas where Victorian-era Methodism had minimal impact, the prior patterns continued uninterrupted.

  187. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Speaking only of myself, but the “essentially good” are often doing something other than arguing with strangers on the internet in the middle of the day.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  188. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Michael S

    Realistically, scientifically, there isn’t a huge difference between a hundred partners and a thousand partners.

    I don’t know about scientifically, but supposedly pimps have a concept called “mileage on a ho” which would suggest that there is a huge difference between a hundred and a thousand, at least if the ho’s mileage occurs between the two. In other words, there is only “enough to cope with” and “too much to cope with”.

    No idea how true that is, but they are the experts.

  189. @AaronB

    Well, the world does seem to work this way, and there is no use fighting it. Rather we have to accept it laughingly, with a good grace, and roll up your sleeves and get to it.

    Yep.

    As I told you on another thread and you disagreed, at bottom all is one, and opposites unite – to reject the competitive aspect of the world out of some dream of peace (as I once did) is to be too one-sided, and at bottom is not necessary.

    Well, peace is actually earned through strength. Competition on this planet helps humanity in any future struggle against aliens. Better compete more with other humans in a fairly benevolent environment instead of losing the competition with aliens in a Hobbesian environment.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Audacious Epigone
  190. @AaronB

    By the way, in Asia women use male prostitutes just as much as men, and rich older women are just as likely to have young male boy toys.

    Yeah, some women go down to SEA to fuck SEA bad boys. At least for now there aren’t a lot of NE Asian women flying to Africa for this purpose…thankfully.

    • Replies: @216
    , @AaronB
  191. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    I doubt most people, male or female, are so pure.

    I think much of female opposition to prostitution is for the same reason as female opposition to sluttiness. Feminism has upended it, but women used to hate sluts. If “metoo” had happened pre-feminism, most of the women involved wouldn’t have been considered victims.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  192. L Woods says:
    @216

    I’m aware of the income issue, but it’s largely chimerical when women only begin to value it when they are expired goods themselves, and can simply steal it through divorce or other dishonest means anyway. Even if wage growth remained healthy, few could be said to have any real stake in the present order.

    • Replies: @216
  193. AaronB says:
    @EastKekistani

    In Japan, the local women use local men. There is actually a huge male industry in Japan.

    There was an interesting documentary on Netflix a while back about female Japanese hostessess who use all their hard earned money on….male hosts.

    The whole thing was very sad. Each group clearly wanted genuine affection, in that instance.

  194. AaronB says:
    @EastKekistani

    Peace being earned through strength is a good example of the unity of opposites, in a way, although I usually mean it more metaphysically.

    I agree – the aliens, when they come, as they will, we must give them a run for their money.

    But in all seriousness – if you wish to promote harmony between whites and Asians and all the races, as you say, perhaps the only way to do so is to press the danger of alien invasions. As I said in the Karlin thread on aggression, human societies discourage interpersonal violence in order to better direct it at outsiders.

    So the alien invasion aspect of your philosophy actually fits rather nicely with your project for racial harmony.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  195. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Michael S

    It’s the expense, social stigma, and usual illegality that largely stops most men from soliciting prostitutes.

    Emphasis on the one that actually matters.

    What’s the cost of a cheap hooker vs. the cost of several rounds of drinks, dinner, maybe some jewellery eventually?

    In those places that actually enforce their laws against prostitution, how much of a depressant effect does that really have?

    I understand your point about Tinder being “heavily discounted prostitution”, except that very few people participating would feel comfortable characterising it as such. And why would they feel that why? The same reason there’s a social stigma.

  196. @216

    Science achievement is a product of excess wealth to be spent on research. Japan has started winning Nobels, and S. Korea should soon follow, it takes time to train the cadre of scientists and then make discoveries.

    Well, it is still too slow. The actual situation is better than the Nobel Prize info because it usually takes decades for the latest scientific progress to be awarded a Nobel Prize. But it is still really awful compared to Germanics per capita.

    The supposed Verban IQ difference in favor of S. Asians will probably lead to India hustling a larger share of future Nobels than might be expected.

    Maybe..especially in economics, literature and peace?

    Hard to say why we’d want to see a more individualistic NE Asia, unless you really like personal firearms ownership.

    I do like personal firearms ownership for two reasons:

    1. It keeps tyranny and potential tyranny in check.
    2. It helps NE Asian people survive and thrive in the Third World (e.g. Sub-Saharan Africa).

    Sky-high female material expectations, in defiance of the wishes of elder generations, seem to be a root cause for low fertility rates.

    Well, in NE Asia a large part of female material expectations is from the parents of a young woman.

    More individualism might mean more single mothers.

    That’s true. But we will get more innovation and space exploration too. In an age of space exploration you want at least some people to be Columbuses and Pizarros. In an age of rapid scientific progress you want at least some people to be weird and nonconformist techies. If everyone has to be a good Confucian and obey his/her parents then almost nobody is going to do the important work elders don’t understand. In particular I definitely don’t want people to be discouraged from leaving this planet due to families.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @216
  197. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Not insignificant at all, no. But in line with “most men haven’t”.

    I think it’s like drugs: the majority don’t ever, a lot have tried it once or twice, a few make it a habit, and a small number go hog-wild.

    (Although, with drugs, those first two categories might be closer in number.)

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  198. 216 says:
    @L Woods

    Contra manosphere tropes, women tend to benefit from staying married vis-à-vis divorce. Divorce settlements are consumed with legal fees, and the expense of reverting to two households. The experience also tends to be emotionally toxic due to the adversarial common law system, an administrative or inquisitorial system would probably be better.

    It’s somewhat common for a woman to simply marginalize a husband within a marriage, given that they already make most household spending decisions. This usually keeps around the benefits of both incomes, and male domestic labor. Female social hierarchies also grant higher status to married women versus divorced women, but divorced tend to rate higher than spinsters.

    Women in Western cultures rarely aspire to more than 3 children, so a marriage age at 30 doesn’t look outrageous to them, and if there are only two births they usually aren’t that disappointed.

    Female hypergamy clashes with fempowerment demands for equal pay. Some female anger is rooted in a disgust that men tend to “lean back”.

  199. AaronB says:
    @EastKekistani

    Asians need to be more individualistic, and whites need to be more communal.

    Each culture needs to correct its excesses. Balance is health.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  200. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dr. Robert Morgan

    If the law is the only thing that stops you from murdering people, then I’m glad we’re having this conversation over the internet.

  201. Rosie says:
    @anon

    I doubt most people, male or female, are so pure.

    Why? People often tend to support paternalistic laws that prevent people from hurting themselves. There is no appetite for legalizing heroine, for example.

    I think much of female opposition to prostitution is for the same reason as female opposition to sluttiness. Feminism has upended it, but women used to hate sluts. If “metoo” had happened pre-feminism, most of the women involved wouldn’t have been considered victims.

    Women’s judgements of other women depend primarily on a kind of empathy. If we can see ourselves doing a thing, we are less likely to judge it harshly. I would imagine it’s the same for men. Men hate child molesters because they are doing something atypical and abhorrent to the average man. Adultery, on the other hand, is likely to be seen as much more forgivable, because it is the sort of mistake any man might make.

    • Replies: @anon
  202. @AaronB

    But in all seriousness – if you wish to promote harmony between whites and Asians and all the races, as you say, perhaps the only way to do so is to press the danger of alien invasions.

    Yes. Alien invasion, AI and Negroids.

    So the alien invasion aspect of your philosophy actually fits rather nicely with your project for racial harmony.

    Yep. In this precarious age humans need to get along so that we can take care of our problems. There is this internal problem, namely our good old outlier, I mean Negroids, who aren’t really helping in the efforts to strengthen humanity..mostly due to incompetence and negligence instead of malice and there is this external problem, namely aliens who may be trying to exterminate humans. In order to take care of the external problem we first need to be able to utilize as many resources on this planet as possible which requires us to take care of the internal problem…

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Audacious Epigone
  203. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    Obviously there are gradations of “acceptable”, but if it were at all acceptable, they wouldn’t need to be discreet.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  204. 216 says:
    @EastKekistani

    Well, in NE Asia a large part of female material expectations is from the parents of a young woman.

    Can you describe how this works? In the US there is a a historic expectation that the bride’s family pays for the wedding, not the groom. Weddings have become increasingly lavish, despite (because?) a decline in religious observance.

    If everyone has to be a good Confucian and obey his/her parents then almost nobody is going to do the important work elders don’t understand. In particular I definitely don’t want people to be discouraged from leaving this planet due to families.

    Here we speak in two different directions. I envision an authoritarian, insular West where deference to elders is restored as a cultural value, up to the point of “arranged marriages”. Traditionalists within the Western socieites will only perservere, IMO, in deliberately counter-cultural communities where the wings of feminism are clipped. Our views are treated with less respect and representation among the elite than the views of blacks.

    Contra space exploration, I think the global warming gambit is a more serious concern. AGW and multikult will lead to a growing police state regardless of what anyone here wants. The Right is better off accepting this truth and acting accordingly, along the lines of Singaporean “constitutional fascism”.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  205. AaronB says:
    @anon

    Umm, there are lots of activities – typically physical – that are socially acceptable but must be done in a discreet fashion. And lots of things its ok to reveal to some people in some contexts but not others.

    You have too much of a black and white view. Society is more complex than that.

    • Replies: @anon
  206. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    One can oppose something for the best of reasons whilst also opposing it, even more, for other reasons. Take heroin: people may not want heroin addicts to hurt themselves, but I think the main reason they support its banning is because they don’t want those goddamn junkie animals roaming the streets mugging their grandmothers. The purported causal link between drugs and crime is gospel as far as most people are concerned. (Not to derail things even further, but I think people have that one backwards.) In other words, they’re concerned with themselves, not with the junkies.

    Re: empathy… are you saying most women can see themselves as prostitutes?

    I confess I find your point very difficult to understand there. Well, it’s not that I don’t understand it, but that it’s an alien perspective. We really are from different planets!

    Still: I can’t let go of my own explanation – perhaps I didn’t articulate it sufficiently. Women are competing against each other for men in the sexual marketplace; the market has rules that regulate the competition; sluts are breaking those rules to achieve an advantage over their competitors, i.e. they’re cheating; “slut-shaming” is an attempt to enforce those rules.

    Men have similar methods of policing male behaviour. I don’t see why women shouldn’t be subject to the same pressures and evolve the same solutions.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Feryl
  207. Rosie says:
    @216

    “arranged marriages”

    Forced prostitution.

    • Replies: @Talha
  208. AaronB says:
    @EastKekistani

    On the other hand, I reverse this calculation of yours, and see the primary value of the external problem as its ability to help solve the internal problem.

    So it isn’t that we must cooperate in order to fright aliens, but that we need aliens to make us cooperate.

    But perhaps it is the same thing, and certainly my formulation can’t be “admitted” if it is to be effective.

    As for Africans, they are fine. Some problems now, but things change. And I would not be so surprised if in several hundred years Africans became the next race to make major advances.

    But I know you disagree.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  209. Rosie says:
    @anon

    Re: empathy… are you saying most women can see themselves as prostitutes?

    Sure. We generally assume that prostitution is an act of desperation and not freely chosen. I realize this is not always the case. Women who choose prostitution are extreme psychological outliers, generally sociopathic in nature. They believe they are the exploiters, not the exploited, and in their case, I assume they are half right.

    Still: I can’t let go of my own explanation – perhaps I didn’t articulate it sufficiently. Women are competing against each other for men in the sexual marketplace; the market has rules that regulate the competition; sluts are breaking those rules to achieve an advantage over their competitors, i.e. they’re cheating; “slut-shaming” is an attempt to enforce those rules.

    We don’t see it that way. We see it as a girl who got made a fool of because she believed a man saying he loved her and would always be there, blah, blah, blah….

    • Replies: @anon
  210. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    Hence “gradations of acceptable”. But some things are so far into the black that “unacceptable” is accurate enough, and banging prostitutes is one of them.

    Take Trump and Stormy Daniels (allegedly): their affair ended up costing him $130,000. I don’t know how much Stormy Daniels (or some other pornstar) charges for a “personal appearance”, but it is surely much less. (And presumably comes with a non-disclosure agreement.)

    Trump did a bad thing that is nonetheless somewhat acceptable – adultery. But if all he wanted was sex, he could’ve got it much cheaper and more discreetly.

    Why?

    The same reason that he wouldn’t mind bragging about fucking a pornstar to his mates, but he would probably be ashamed to admit to paying to fuck a pornstar.

    It’s all about how much of a man you are.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  211. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    We see it as a girl who got made a fool of because she believed a man saying he loved her and would always be there, blah, blah, blah….

    You might see it that way the first time. But if this girl was made a fool of several times, with several men – particularly married men – are you seriously suggesting that women (especially pre-feminism) wouldn’t have looked askance?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  212. @anon

    He had me until I saw “CE” instead of “AD” on the poster… bunch of wankers … oops… probably not the best term to use just now….

  213. @anon

    Nah, Rosie os no stranger. She is familiar from iSteve threads, and it’s generally pretty friendly as the Commies have left it alone for now – too much thinking and truth-telling going on – they can’t handle all that. Shhhhh!

  214. Rosie says:
    @anon

    You might see it that way the first time. But if this girl was made a fool of several times, with several men – particularly married men – are you seriously suggesting that women (especially pre-feminism) wouldn’t have looked askance?

    We still look askance at serial homewreckers, feminism notwithstanding.

    Assuming she is not sleeping with married men, I would be more likely to feel sorry for her than angry or punitive towards her. I would see her as desperate for attention/affection that she rightly or wrongly believes she cannot get any other way.

    • Replies: @anon
  215. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    If I may – I come from a culture that has arranged marriages and, though there are always certain excesses and abuses of power, in the vast majority of arrangements, the woman’s consent is a must. Arranging a marriage is not forcing two people to marry; rather it is facilitating the union by outsourcing the matching-up process to elders in the family and community – often it is exclusively the womenfolk who do all the arranging and the menfolk simply sign off on it.

    Maybe it was different in European cultures, but simply equating all variations of arranged marriage as forced prostitution is not a serious argument. I already have a couple of families and their daughters in mind for my sons, but it will obviously need sign off from all parents and potential spouses.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @RSDB
  216. @AaronB

    I can see your point on the external problem even though I’m very reluctant to introduce pro-social myths. So we can agree to disagree because it is likely to be an issue of personal preferences caused by personality differences.

    You are indeed right that it is possible for Negroids to make major advances several hundred years later. To me it is still very implausible unless genetic engineering can be widespread and the UN, the Catholic Church or some other entity impose mandatory genetic engineering on Negroids. Without genetic engineering this is also possible. However it may take at least 1,000-2,000 years. Probably more.

    However they are currently not exactly contributing to improvement of human civilization right now. Due to the global disparity in fertility rates if the world economy is going to continue to grow Negroids need to be able to do a lot of jobs currently done by non-Negroids unless these jobs are eliminated by automation. If Negroids are indeed sufficiently capable then this is not really that much of an issue. But what if HBD is right and they really can’t? Are we only going to admit that we have a serious problem when global economy enters long-term secular decline as BOTH production AND consumption decline (because Negroids aren’t consuming a lot of goods either)? In such an economy there may not be enough money to properly fund research in genetic engineering..and then who are going to make your hypothesis about Negroids happen?

  217. AaronB says:
    @anon

    That’s primarily a middle class perspective. The need to prove oneself.

    Upper class men don’t really take that seriously.

    What if one’s manhood is already proved, and one has a history of success with women, and prostitution is simply about convenience and not toying with the emotions of a girl you have no intention of marrying?

    And it’s more an American perspective. Less common even in Europe, and non-existent in Asia.

    Look, I personally don’t care one way or another. I’m just reporting on facts, that social attitudes vary by culture and class. Its rather easily verifiable by YouTube videos and historical literature even if you don’t have personal access to those cultures or classes.

    And I’m not suggesting you personally should change your values system with regard to this – if you find prostitution intrinsically unacceptable, and the need to prove manhood an insuperable obstacle, then that’s a perfectly legitimate opinion.

    I too, as a young naive American, was quite shocked at the attitudes towards this subject that existed in other countries and among men of certain classes. It was an eye opener. But live and learn.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @anon
    , @L Woods
  218. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    If I may – I come from a culture that has arranged marriages and, though there are always certain excesses and abuses of power, in the vast majority of arrangements, the woman’s consent is a must. Arranging a marriage is not forcing two people to marry; rather it is facilitating the union by outsourcing the matching-up process to elders in the family and community – often it is exclusively the womenfolk who do all the arranging and the menfolk simply sign off on it.

    So defined, I have no objection whatsoever to the practice. My experience with 216 leads me to believe that he has something far less benevolent in mind.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @216
  219. @EastKekistani

    Probably. Do they have any rational reason for opposing sex bots? Women obviously oppose them because they take away their power over men.

    Falling birthrates, breakdown of social connections (you have no in-laws or access to wife’s social circle if you’re married to a robot), growth of inequality (the upper classes will still have plenty of nepotistic connections to get ahead in life), personal hygiene failure. The latter is already a problem among anime waifu lovers, and a robot mistress also won’t care if you bathe or how clean your clothes are.

    I don’t see women upset about losing their power over men to waifus and their physical manifestations, the infamous dakimakura. The kind of guys who are into this stuff aren’t regarded as desirable mates in the first place. ‘You don’t want to stick your d in crazy’ is just as relevant when the sexes are reversed.

    • Replies: @Wency
  220. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    And if you were single, and might have liked the man she was using her sluttiness to entice, in violation of the rules?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  221. Rosie says:
    @AaronB

    What if one’s manhood is already proved, and one has a history of success with women, and prostitution is simply about convenience and not toying with the emotions of a girl you have no intention of marrying?

    Seriously. If you’re going to use a woman for sex, hiring a prostitute is probably the most fair and honest way to go about it, though of course that’s not saying much.

    • Agree: AaronB
  222. Rosie says:
    @anon

    And if you were single, and might have liked the man she was using her sluttiness to entice, in violation of the rules?

    His abuse of her will have saved me the trouble of investing any time or effort in a man without honor.

    • Replies: @anon
  223. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    It is kind of cute at times; often it will be two older ladies that are grandmothers that arrange for their one or more pairs of grandchildren to marry each other. If they are sisters, then it will be a cousin marriage obviously else, if they aren’t related, it is simply an extension and expression of their life long friendship. The fact that these elders have a stake in the union often means they are also invested in making sure problems and issues are resolved and the marriage doesn’t fall apart. Again, there are of course instances where abuses of the institution occur, but most family situations are normal and care for the benefit of their children.

    Peace.

  224. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    His violation of the marketplace rules marks him as an abuser without honour, whereas the exact same sin makes her a victim to be pitied.

    Meanwhile, open eyes are all that’s necessary to see that empathy and pity isn’t the only thing going through women’s minds when they see a slut, at least without decades of feminist brainwashing that being a slut is empowering and awesome. (And even still.)

    • Replies: @Rosie
  225. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    You’re acting like people of different classes or cultures are from different species.

    The man with no need to prove himself is rare indeed, and what few of him there are can be found in any class.

    Staying with Trump – admittedly an extreme example – he has surely “proved himself” long ago, and yet still felt the need to make more money, build more buildings with his name on it, become president… even to rock that ridiculous combover or work on his golf swing.

    Or take Donald Sterling, another billionaire who felt the need to engage in the pretense that some young girl was attracted to him and not his money. Why did we hear about his pathetic story? Ultimately, because he was worried that the other billionaires would make fun of him when the pretense couldn’t be maintained.

    Why do old rich men get hair plugs, face lifts, fancy cars they don’t drive, etc, etc… The desire to prove oneself a man is universal to men and only ends with extraordinary spiritual enlightenment or death. Guess which one is most common.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    , @AaronB
  226. EH says:
    @JRM

    Combination with sufficiently good VR goggles displaying infinitely varied but impossibly beautiful computer-generated girls using AI body-model and image generation software will delay boredom considerably. Adjustments in the dolls could allow for some bone length adjustment, and skins, heads and nether parts could potentially be changed. The latter is especially desirable for sanitary reasons as most guys won’t be buying their own, at least not the full-motion capable ones, which will not fall below several thousand dollars barring some technical revolution. The first full motion ones will cost 10 times that, and the tech won’t be up to doing it at all for a few years.

  227. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    Well, I can relate to this topic too. There’s a real difference, always, where fallen humanity is concerned, between what is and what should be.

    Arranged marriage (which every subcontinental Hindu, Muslim, Christian, or Buddhist will be familiar with) gets a bad rap in the modern West, and in the West in general, because it really isn’t understood here. In cultures where marriage arrangement is common it’s not the only common thing which in the West today would be regarded as sheer parental oppression; children in these places don’t “leave the nest” but rather live their lives in a sort of partnership with their parents and a less direct partnership with the rest of their family.

    Now it’s also the case that Christianity regards marriage as a holy thing, not to be unduly tampered with. And while nobody thinks marriage ought to be taken lightly, it often is, and that is deadly whether the marriage is principally arranged by the parents or the spouses. And in either case, but especially in the case of arrangement, there are two things which I see around me which seem specially important, if marriage is not to become an evil mockery: 1) a deeply grounded attitude of self-sacrifice on the part of the spouses and 2) a general attitude of chastity, preferably a society-wide one.

    Do you have marriage-brokers, too? In Ceylon they seem to have gone out of fashion, as they have with Jews in the US. I would add that (in my very fallible opinion) one reason for in-family marriages, cross-cousins and such, is that they are much easier to arrange than marriages at some remove.

    I don’t make it my life’s mission to recommend Hindi films, but a good movie having to do with this topic, and which makes one think, if a little arty for many viewers, is Duvidha, which I believe has been remade as Paheli.

    I replied to your last comment on SL but UR seems to have eaten it. In fact since I’ve been on here recently the site seems generally clunkier than before– I wonder if it’s under more attack. I may try to rewrite the lost comment.

    Anyway I wanted to thank you for the concern you expressed for my family and express my belief, always a given in SL anyway, that there’s something fishy about what the government is telling us. At any rate the least kind of a warning to the hotel managers of Colombo or to the Cardinal Archbishop, and a few other people, could have drastically reduced the scale of the crime. We in Sri Lanka (well, I’m not, but never mind) may not know much but the one thing we are familiar with by now is suicide bombing– that, and tea, are the local areas of expertise.

    The kind of alertness that there was at the Cinnamon Grand, for instance, when I was there during the war, would have made the murders much more difficult.

    Sorry to ramble on about this but it does strike hard, especially as I must watch from here, when so many others are on the front lines, so to speak.

    Many of the victims have been buried; the fellow who gave land for that purpose in Negombo is known to my grandmother.

    May God grant –and I ask the holy martyrs recently made to intercede to that effect– that the evil in our hearts be buried as quickly! Our Blessed Lord said something about camels and needles which seems to apply to the rich and well-connected people who, it seems, have made themselves murderers. May their hearts be converted. I fear that these wealthy fools have done nothing but endanger their poor and innocent fellows. Before this Catholics were the only major group on the island not bearing a grudge against Muslims. During disturbances Muslims were always safe in Christian areas (and vice versa; some of my relatives were sheltered by Muslim neighbors in ’83). Now … I don’t know. People are angry. Muslims are mad as hell, too, at the perpetrators, who have put them in an awful position.

    We require the prayers of the holy innocents, as the blood of the Martyrs of Mannar was the seed of the Church in the North, and the conversion of their persecutors. St. Anthony’s was already a holy and miraculous site, dating from the Dutch persecutions– how much holier it will be now! And how much multiplied will be such places.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @RSDB
    , @EastKekistani
    , @Talha
  228. RSDB says:
    @RSDB

    Sorry for the hyperbolic post; my excuse is that it’s late at night here.

    Anyway, I think I expressed the thoughts I wanted to convey, if in a strained manner.

    My principal purpose, again, in case it got lost, was to thank you for the concern you expressed for my family and wish the same blessings on you and yours.

  229. Rosie says:
    @anon

    His violation of the marketplace rules marks him as an abuser without honour, whereas the exact same sin makes her a victim to be pitied

    And here I thought we were just having a friendly exchange of thoughts about this matter.

    I’ve been over this elsewhere. I don’t accept your premise that it’s “the exact same sin.” The reluctant accomplice is not as culpable as the enthusiastic one.

    • Replies: @anon
  230. @Rosie

    ” they are willing to have sex with lots of women, but get awfully particular when asked to pick one mate and settle down”

    With 70% of divorces initiated by women, they will need to get more particular still.

    Maybe it’s just my social milieu, but I don’t see many women leaving their husbands because of drugs/alcohol/gambling/adultery, though I did recently meet someone who’d been abandoned with three young kids. The splits seem to be just that the woman was no longer “happy” with her husband – and nearly all the women are still either single or “dating”, where at least a couple of the husbands have remarried, in a triumph of hope over experience.

    One woman did remarry, having left a really nice guy husband. It lasted maybe two years.

    (And the edit function has returned, on this blog anyway, where I’m not moderated)

    • Replies: @Toronto Russian
  231. “Liberating or objectifying? ”

    It’s neither. Both represent the positive and negative of feminist framing, and that premise is false.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  232. @SunBakedSuburb

    Not really any evidence for this for younger men. A study found that men who masturbated frequently suffered from prostate cancer at an increased rate and another a decreased rate.

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319536.php

  233. @anon

    “Why do old rich men get hair plugs, face lifts, fancy cars they don’t drive, etc, etc… The desire to prove oneself a man is universal to men “

    Somerset Maugham was a homosexual, but had a certain witty detachment about affairs of the heart and other organs.

    https://www.fadedpage.com/books/20180433/html.php#p170

    He went on with his interrupted breakfast. Lisette did not speak and there was silence between them. But his appetite satisfied, his mood changed; he began to feel sorry for himself rather than angry with her, and with a strange ignorance of woman’s heart he thought to arouse Lisette’s remorse by exhibiting himself as an object of pity.

    “It is hard to break a habit to which one has grown accustomed. It was a relief and a solace to me to come here when I could snatch a moment from my many occupations. Will you regret me a little, Lisette?”

    “Of course.”

    He gave a deep sigh.

    “I should never have thought you capable of so much deception.”

    “It is the deception that rankles,” she murmured thoughtfully. “Men are funny in that way. They cannot forgive being made fools of. It is because they are so vain. They attach importance to things that are of no consequence.”

    “Do you call it a matter of no consequence that I should find you having breakfast with a young man wearing my pyjamas?”

    “If he were my husband and you were my lover you would think it perfectly natural.”

    “Obviously. For then I should be deceiving him and my honour would be secure.”

    “In short, I have only to marry him to make the situation perfectly regular.”

    For a moment he did not understand. Then her meaning flashed across his clever brain and he gave her a quick look. Her lovely eyes had the twinkle he always found so alluring and on her large red mouth was the suspicion of a roguish smile.

    “Do not forget that as a member of the Senate I am by all the traditions of the Republic the authorised mainstay of morality and good behaviour.”

    “Does that weigh very heavily with you?”

    He stroked his handsome square beard with a composed and dignified gesture.

    “Not a row of beans,” he replied, but the expression he used had a Gallic breadth that would perhaps have given his more conservative supporters something of a shock.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  234. @notanon

    I.e. 37 year old women dedicated to their careers, who could resist that?

  235. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    “And here I thought we were just having a friendly exchange of thoughts about this matter.”

    Aren’t we?

    “The reluctant accomplice is not as culpable as the enthusiastic one.”

    I don’t know where you’re getting enthusiasm/reluctance from. I didn’t mention it.

    Assuming they’re both equally enthusiastic participants in their sexual dalliance, and with all the other shit I stipulated still in place, do you still think other women wouldn’t frown on this woman’s behaviour?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  236. iffen says:
    @EastKekistani

    a blind process does not inherently come with any value preference.

    There are no descendants among us of people who did not reproduce. I’d say that evolution “values” reproduction above all else.

  237. 216 says:
    @Rosie

    No, I generally agree with the description that Talha made.

    • Replies: @notanon
  238. @RSDB

    Lack of neolocal residence is actually a huge problem. The West mostly got rid of patrilocal systems during the feudal period through the bipartite manor which helped the West transition from good old familism that ancient Rome had to individualism & civil society.

    The main problems with familism are:

    1. It is almost impossible for anyone to make novel decisions that may turn out to be useful simply because elders tend to dislike them. Hence less innovations.

    2. Lack of cooperation in a society between non-kin.

    3. Important decisions are only made by really old people who are already as competent as they were in their prime years.

    In particular a familist system is very unlikely to be able to handle a world with many new technologies.

    In the West this problem did not exist because married men were allowed to be free and made their own decisions. Almost everywhere else there was no such freedom.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    , @Audacious Epigone
  239. neutral says:
    @AaronB

    Being a jew makes you Asian, unless you can show me a map that shows Israel being in Europe.

  240. @YetAnotherAnon

    With 70% of divorces initiated by women, they will need to get more particular still.

    Maybe it’s just my social milieu, but I don’t see many women leaving their husbands because of drugs/alcohol/gambling/adultery, though I did recently meet someone who’d been abandoned with three young kids. The splits seem to be just that the woman was no longer “happy” with her husband – and nearly all the women are still either single or “dating”, where at least a couple of the husbands have remarried, in a triumph of hope over experience.

    Here’s the American underclass. 80% of women married to ‘Henry’ initiated the divorce, but does it make him a nice innocent person screwed up by evil gold-diggers? Nope, in his own words. And he’s likely not paid a single cent of alimony to any of them.

    – I had a patient, let’s call him ‘Henry’ for reasons that are to become clear, who came to hospital after being picked up for police for beating up his fifth wife.

    So I asked the obvious question: “What happened to your first four wives?”

    “Oh,” said the patient, “Domestic violence issues. Two of them left me. One of them I got put in jail, and she’d moved on once I got out. One I just grew tired of.”

    “You’ve beaten up all five of your wives?” I asked in disbelief.

    “Yeah,” he said, without sounding very apologetic.

    “And why, exactly, were you beating your wife this time?” I asked.

    “She was yelling at me, because I was cheating on her with one of my exes.”

    “With your ex-wife? One of the ones you beat up?”

    “Yeah.”

    “So you beat up your wife, she left you, you married someone else, and then she came back and had an affair on the side with you?” I asked him.

    “Yeah,” said Henry.

    I wish, I wish I wish, that Henry was an isolated case. But he’s interesting more for his anomalously high number of victims than for the particular pattern.

    https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    , @Rosie
  241. notanon says:
    @216

    Europeans overtook the rest of the world after adopting pretty much the exact opposite of the arranged marriage model found in the rest of the world.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line

    mutual voluntary marriages based on fully mature adult characteristics (combined with harsh sanctions on reproduction outside this model).

    we don’t need to copy outside models. we just need to get back to how we were before the poz.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @Feryl
  242. @Toronto Russian

    Yes, I knew the odd Henry in my youth (and I remember Scott’s lament that you linked to), including a chap who not only beat his girlfriend, but moved a second girl into their council flat. There are good evolutionary reasons why a violent chap doesn’t go short of female attention.

    But these days, how many of the underclass get married? And the underclass is still a minority, although a much bigger one than 60 years ago. Most women and men don’t belong to it. They are I’d have thought a smallish minority of divorces.

    • Replies: @Toronto Russian
  243. @notanon

    Exactly. You guys actually have what I desperately want to import. Don’t throw that away.

    mutual voluntary marriages based on fully mature adult characteristics (combined with harsh sanctions on reproduction outside this model).

    Yeppo.

    we don’t need to copy outside models. we just need to get back to how we were before the poz.

    That is, patriarchy within a nuclear family only. Married men are sovereign and not subject to their parents and extended family. This is a family structure that helps with colonization, exploration and innovation.

    • Replies: @notanon
  244. notanon says:
    @EastKekistani

    yes, imo it creates a kind of lattice structure which is optimal for large scale cooperation.

    imo it’s almost materials science applied to human group dynamics.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  245. Pericles says:
    @Feryl

    They gave up on trying to “beat” internet porn because the truth is that most people use it, and it doesn’t physically hurt people (whereas drugs, violence, and prostitution all do immediate damage to the bodies of those involved).

    The porn performers do seem fairly damaged too, much like prostitutes. And the porn viewer can easily get into some very strange habits. I wonder if the millennial sexual oddness (increased preference for homo/bisexuality, anal sex, group sex, etc) is driven by porn viewing. It wouldn’t surprise me.

    • Replies: @Feryl
  246. AaronB says:
    @anon

    Good point. I don’t really know why the upper class don’t see prostitution as shameful. Maybe they get enough validation from their money and status. Maybe they see it as validation of their money and status (they can “buy” people). Maybe they get lots of female attention anyways.Its not that they don’t also need validation, but they get differently than the other classes. It takes other forms. Maybe they get pleasure of feeling they are above middle class norms. Maybe they feel a sense of impunity.

    But if we take the broad and comprehensive view, we will see that prostitution was an accepted part of all historical societs, and sometimes even a respected proffession, although that more rarely (in ancient India and in certain places that had temple prostitution, and Percilean Athens). And that the upper classes have always had a much more lax attitude towards sexual matters than the prim middle class. There were prostitutes who were educated and refined and considred suitable companions for the nobility and were highly sought after (Pericles got political advice from his courtesan)

    So it would seem that shame at prositution is rather a unique feature of modern Western societies, and particularly Anglo societies (Continental Europe legalizes it for the most part.) Seen from this perspective, it probably has to do with Puritanism, and the Anglo desire to channel all available energy into hard work and conquest etc (this is why Anglo societies are generally hostile to pleasure, so that people can channel their frustration into work and conquest).

    I think its important to look at history and other cultures and societies to get the greast possible breadth and depth of view on sucbject, and see it from the most comprehensive angle. Otherwise one risks being parochial, and assuming the local prejudices are universal.

    • Replies: @anon
  247. Pericles says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    You can stumble on a lot of bizarre romance books on Amazon, and I don’t even mean the dinosaur stuff. For example, I just typed “twins seals romance” into the search box and what do you know, there is at least half a dozen directly about that, such as “The SEAL’s Surprise Twin (Special Forces: Operation Alpha)” or “The Navy SEAL Brotherhood: A Navy SEAL Romance (The BWWM Romance Brotherhoods Book 4)”. The most complicated related title, however, was “My Father’s Best Friend’s Secret Baby (His Secret Baby Book 1)”.

    Anyone looking for “seal billionaire romance”? I think the best title was “Bad Boy SEALs: Menage Romance. Billionaire Romance. (British Romance Trilogy Book 2)”. NB: just one billionaire SEAL is apparently not enough. And it looks like they have to be foreigners too.

    I’ve never really felt the need to buy these, but perhaps some enterprising journalist should bite the bullet and review ten or so of the best titles.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  248. L Woods says:
    @AaronB

    The idea of “manhood” as defined by one’s ability or inclination to please women is repulsive.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @anon
  249. @notanon

    yes, imo it creates a kind of lattice structure which is optimal for large scale cooperation.

    Yep. Thankfully parental power over adults in NE Asia has already weakened significantly partly due to urbanization and the fact that in cities apartments and condos can not house entire extended families. These days people also have mobile phones and sometimes their own rooms even if they live with their parents. Parents can’t kill their children and get away with that and honor killings are unheard of after modernization. Moreover people tend to leave their parents for work or school at least at some point in their lives. After having ever tasted freedom nobody is going to actually obey their parents in all matters. Of course people still take care of their parents which is good. You can take care of people without being subject to their rule. However seniors are no longer controlling middle-aged and younger people any more. More interesting things get done as a result.

    • Replies: @216
  250. @L Woods

    The idea of “manhood” as defined by one’s ability or inclination to please women is repulsive.

    Of course this is a weird definition. But what about the oldest (and Sub-Saharan African) definition of manhood, I mean one’s ability to physically harm people? That’s not very nice either.

    What you may like the most is the northern Malthusian definition of manhood, namely one’s ability to provide for his family. Am I right?

  251. @Pericles

    When love congeals
    It soon reveals
    The faint aroma of performing SEALs
    The double-crossing of a pair of heels
    I wish I were in love again!

    — Lorenz Hart

  252. @YetAnotherAnon

    Somerset Maugham was a homosexual, but had a certain witty detachment about affairs of the heart and other organs.

    Only 3/4, by his own admission.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  253. Talha says:
    @RSDB

    in the West in general, because it really isn’t understood here.

    Yup. And the cases of abuse that end up having news articles written about them makes it sound like all situations are gross violations of a person’s rights (my dad is forcing my to marry my ugly cousin and will kick me out of the house if I don’t), but the majority of cases go along fairly well – of course, those don’t make the headlines.

    children in these places don’t “leave the nest” but rather live their lives in a sort of partnership with their parents and a less direct partnership with the rest of their family.

    Agreed. They tend to live in the same areas (relatively close proximity) have plenty of get-togethers, etc. On my dad’s side, three of my uncles basically just built a new floor on top of the original existing house of my grandparents.

    Do you have marriage-brokers, too?

    Well, it really depends on the culture you are talking about. Since I come from a Desi background, I don’t know of any charge for this kind of thing. It seems to be a hobby of the “aunties”. Some, like the mother of a good friend of mine, are known to have a knack for this and have set up multiple successful marriages; the more success, the more one’s reputation grows and the more people are willing to come to you for help/advice. Now this is more along the match-making spectrum than the arranged marriage spectrum, but there is a lot of overlap.

    Anyway I wanted to thank you for the concern you expressed for my family

    Most welcome, I hope the Christian community recovers and is stronger and safer than before this horrific event.

    there’s something fishy about what the government is telling us.

    Seems that way too, but I’ve also read that they are asking some top security and police officials to resign so it may have been just a very, very bad case of incompetence.

    People are angry. Muslims are mad as hell, too, at the perpetrators, who have put them in an awful position.

    Indeed, which is often the goal of these kinds of extremists – to cause chaos, they are nihilists are their core. I highly recommend this read by Olivier Roy, who is an expert on Muslim radicals and profiled 100 cases in France and Beligum:
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    They really don’t care a whit about anybody (not even the community the are supposedly doing all this for) except for their delusional pipe-dream. If the accounts are to be believed, one of them was a pregnant woman and she blew herself up with her three children. Someone that has this kind of mentality hardly cares if this means other Muslims will be under scrutiny or mosques will be attacked and thus set off a bloody cycle of back-and-forth reprisals.

    as the blood of the Martyrs of Mannar was the seed of the Church in the North, and the conversion of their persecutors

    Indeed, this has often been the case that Christianity historically arises from this kind of blind persecution. If there is a silver lining, I hope the authorities in Sri Lanka will take the security of their minority Christian community much more seriously.

    Sorry for the hyperbolic post

    I found it to be emotional, not hyperbolic.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @RSDB
  254. RSDB says:
    @EastKekistani

    Well, you certainly make some interesting points, but that really wasn’t quite what I was getting at. It’s actually not really necessary to this idea of partnership that people live under the same roof; I know it’s the practice in some places, but it really depends as much on attitude towards land as towards marriage.

    As for your specific claims about it, OK. Clannishness certainly has drawbacks, but I tend to misdoubt extreme claims about it. Assuming colonization, for instance, which you mention, is something you actually want, it seems to have been carried out, historically, extremely successfully by Arabs and Romans, not to mention Chinese, not societies particularly distinguished by a lack of respect for elders. And not to forget Britain, it’s interesting if you read much about the East India Company just how often young men were set up in it by their relatives.

    I haven’t noticed people in love marriages, all things being equal, to be more at home with new technology or more innovative than people in arranged marriages (noting there’s always a spectrum between the two). But that’s just personal observation.

    I’m not trying to put down the idea of love marriage. As a matter of fact I think the Western idea of romanticism, not limited to sexual matters, is a very good thing.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  255. L Woods says:
    @EastKekistani

    No, because that still casts the man as a means rather than an end. Between the three, I’d sooner subscribe to the supposed African model.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  256. Wency says:
    @Toronto Russian

    Extremely correct.

    I swear, anyone pushing that angle has no clue how women think. Women are mostly normies, even more so than men. They don’t like sexbots because they’re gross and weird and eww. They don’t frame such topics intellectually in terms of how it affects the balance of power between the sexes. Few are capable of thinking explicitly about this issue.

    I’d compare this to one of the most powerful instincts women do have regarding power balance of the sexes, and that’s slut-shaming. I’ve only ever once heard a woman defend slut-shaming explicitly: “Thanks to sluts, men feel they don’t have to romance you anymore.” She was pretty intelligent.

    If a woman has any intellectual opinion about slut-shaming, it’s almost invariably that it’s a tool of the patriarchy from which she should refrain — a thought she’s just parroting uncritically after hearing it somewhere. Though sometimes even these women can’t help themselves. A “sex-positive” feminist once told me in private, “That whore has been with like 50 guys!” about a girl she was quarreling with.

    Women have no evolutionary instincts regarding sexbots per se, except to view them like a man having a romantic relationship with a cow, or possibly a shovel. “Weird pathetic pervert loser, stay away”.

  257. Rosie says:
    @Toronto Russian

    Here’s the American underclass. 80% of women married to ‘Henry’ initiated the divorce, but does it make him a nice innocent person screwed up by evil gold-diggers? Nope, in his own words. And he’s likely not paid a single cent of alimony to any of them.

    There seems to be a common belief around here that women are up and leaving their husbands for no reason. I have literally never seen that happen, ever. What I see is just the opposite: women sticking around and putting up with crap they really shouldn’t have to.

    • Replies: @Wency
  258. Rosie says:
    @anon

    Assuming they’re both equally enthusiastic participants in their sexual dalliance, and with all the other shit I stipulated still in place, do you still think other women wouldn’t frown on this woman’s behaviour?

    I think they would, but not for the calculated reasons you suppose, i.e. to punish cheaters. We would mostly just think it’s wierd. We don’t get the idea of casual sex for its own sake. It literally doesn’t compute.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Mikel
  259. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    If the accounts are to be believed

    I think they are; you don’t frame people as wealthy as that. I can think of a number of cases in the past (notably Premadasa) where a lot of people think somebody was framed but it’s generally some poor and not too well-known person.

    The Roy article was very good, though I have a minor quibble; wasn’t the line about loving death as life from Msulim general Khalid?

    Most welcome, I hope the Christian community recovers and is stronger and safer than before this horrific event.

    Thanks again. Actually, though, and although I may seem callous as my personal loss was small, the damage has been much less than during the riots or the JVP insurrection and at many times during the war. This isn’t even the first time the Cinnamon Grand (then the Oberoi) was bombed– minor group EROS (yes, I know) planted a bomb there at the very start of the conflict. It’s really the suddenness, the total lack of sense, and, to be honest, the purer degree of nihilistic evil of this that gets one.

    Peace with you as well.

    • Replies: @Talha
  260. 216 says:
    @EastKekistani

    Honestly, I revile that as atomization and anomie. Where the cleric and the extended family fall away, the welfare state and the corporation take its place.

  261. Talha says:
    @RSDB

    wasn’t the line about loving death as life from Msulim general Khalid?

    Yes you are correct. I have read various variations, like:
    I bring with me men who love to fight and die in the path of God like your men love life (sometimes it is women and/or wine).

    That was definitely Khalid ibn Walid’s way to get the other side to rethink their position (which they may or may not have regretted before they lay dying on one or another battlefield). He would also say things like:

    I actually like that attitude to show resolve in the face of an enemy, but there is a massive difference between stating that when you are about to face an imperial army twice your size, soldiered by trained warriors, on the battlefield and going into a place of worship full of children, women and old people and turning them into burned chunks of meat in their most vulnerable and innocent moment. Across the board, at least across the traditional circles I’m in, I’m seeing the perpetrators being referred to as a cancer, akin to the ebola virus, demons, etc.

    It’s really the suddenness, the total lack of sense, and, to be honest, the purer degree of nihilistic evil of this that gets one.

    Agreed. Honestly, I had thought maybe it was the Tamil Tigers coming back with a vengeance, but it’s fairly obvious it’s our extremists – very interesting how so many of these people come from privileged or well-to-do backgrounds. On the total lack of sense, part of me also believes these people have a screw loose, everything they do and everything they touch is a disaster, even in their evil they can’t seem to accomplish anything other than the equivalent of a bloody tantrum.

    Oh, and I forgot “dogs of hell” – that’s also what some people are calling them.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @RSDB
  262. @Reg Cæsar

    So he only ever made it to 3rd base?

  263. Anon[283]: “If the law is the only thing that stops you from murdering people, then I’m glad we’re having this conversation over the internet.”

    Probably very wise. Few things annoy me more than sanctimonious hypocrites who pretend to be moral.

    • Replies: @anon
  264. Feryl says:
    @Pericles

    Do we really need, for the 10,000 time, to recite statistics about promiscuity and STDs being substantially worse in the 1970’s-early 1990’s than they are now? Some forms of cancer (of the type associated with bodily orifices and the reproductive system) have been shown to be worse in people with a large number of lifetime partners. Oral sex in particular went “under the radar” for a long, long time, but Boomers and early Gen X-ers are going to pay a serious price for all the blow jobs (and muff dives) they gave to each other.

    Group sex? Really? That’s always been pretty niche, but it was far more common in the 70’s and 80’s than it is now. And as a matter of fact, “swinging” is aging along with the people who popularized it in the 70’s.

    I’ll give you that today’s young women are far more accepting of lesbian sex, but you also have to realize that we live in a society that socializes girls to be repulsed by most males.

    Also, porn performers are obviously going to be marginal figures, since having sex with lots of people is emotionally ravaging to most people, women especially. But, porn viewers aren’t going to get diseases from what they watch. It definitely is preferable to say, the 1920’s, when a lot of men were desperate and had to risk contracting a disease in order to sate their lust.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  265. Feryl says:
    @notanon

    Yes it was freedom from “excessive” extended family obligations which freed up time and energy for Western Europeans so that they could pursue various intellectual, technical, and artistic pursuits. Now that most white Western European countries have imported a lot of clannish non-Europeans, we’re seeing collapsing levels of happiness, confidence, trust, etc. within the traditional (e.g., white) population. Rising China, it would seem, is actually becoming more hostile toward ethnic minorities as a way to insure that China remains China, culturally and demographically. Whereas your typical white Western country has, since the end of World War 2, gone to greater and greater lengths to downplay the accomplishments of whites and elevate non-whites.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @notanon
  266. Feryl says:
    @Rosie

    Divorces became a lot more common in the 1970’s, when society began to openly favor “minorities” (including women) at the expense of white men. “No fault” divorce was introduced on Jan 1, 1970 (no, I’m not kidding), supposedly to spare children the trauma of watching their parents bitterly argue about whether a divorce should be granted or not. In reality, it was pandering to women who, beginning in the 1970’s, started to compete with men. The idea that women should conform to a traditional patriarchal structure was discarded on the grounds that it didn’t give women the proper respect. Unfortunately, starting in the 70’s, a lot of women became openly hostile toward and competitive with men, so it would seem that quite a few women are all too willing to say “in your face” to men, instead of trying to figure out how to live amicably together (as was the general goal during the 1930’s-1960’s). By 1980, female education attainment reached parity with men, indicating that a lot of women were simply not bothering to concern themselves with the traditional idea that finding a male provider/protector early in life was important.

    Women are the main instigators of divorce because they know that there’s always other men out there. Whereas for guys, it’s so difficult to win a women’s trust and love, that they figure that after marriage, they might as well be happy with what they got.

    The Christian conception of marriage explicitly states that a marriage should endure through thick and thin. It’s intended to ward off the impulsivity, boredom, pride, greed, etc. that both men and women can struggle to deal with during marriage, the things that spur divorces. But when Westerners rejected respect for tradition in the 1970’s, well, whaddaya know, divorces became a lot more common. Funny thing is most people born after 1970 intuitively understand just why things like traditions happen in the first place: because many generations of people had to learn the hard way why you just shouldn’t do certain things. A lot of people who were teenagers or young adults in the 1970’s have ruined their lives by not being able to say “no” to base impulses.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  267. Pericles says:
    @Feryl

    Millennials seem far more accepting of anal sex in various forms. Also, come to think of it, the weird BDSM style choking, slapping, spitting etc. (Where did that come from?)

    Group sex in the form of threesomes today seems “not unheard of”.

    Promiscuity: Would be interesting to do a bit of data analytics on Tinder and Grindr.

    Porn viewers might not get syphilis but they can still end up with erectile dysfunction and related issues. And an odd sexuality.

    • Replies: @Feryl
  268. Rosie says:
    @Feryl

    Women are the main instigators of divorce because they know that there’s always other men out there. Whereas for guys, it’s so difficult to win a women’s trust and love, that they figure that after marriage, they might as well be happy with what they got.

    I wish there was a tag that said “bullshit.”

    All I ever hear about is how undesirable women are as they age, and now this!

    • Replies: @Rosie
  269. Feryl says:
    @anon

    “One can oppose something for the best of reasons whilst also opposing it, even more, for other reasons. Take heroin: people may not want heroin addicts to hurt themselves, but I think the main reason they support its banning is because they don’t want those goddamn junkie animals roaming the streets mugging their grandmothers. The purported causal link between drugs and crime is gospel as far as most people are concerned. (Not to derail things even further, but I think people have that one backwards.) In other words, they’re concerned with themselves, not with the junkies.”

    Um, I’m not sure what you mean by “backwards”. It seems to me that both drug abuse and crime are linked to poor impulse control and a lack of conscientiousness. In other words, the same kinds of assholes are likely to be crazy, drunk, high, violent, and so forth.

    Yeah, drug abusing idiots who crash cars, let dangerous dogs run loose, steal to support their habit, and so forth are the reason that most drugs are taboo.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @notanon
  270. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    When a marriage breaks down it is women who need the courts to intervene and distribute property, order awards, etc. Men are typically better off officially staying married, even though they have abandoned their wives for all practical purposes.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  271. Feryl says:
    @Pericles

    Oral sex isn’t wholesome, either, but 1960’s and 70’s culture indicates that it was prominently in the sexual zeitgeist of the, well, Sexual Revolution.

    “Promiscuity: Would be interesting to do a bit of data analytics on Tinder and Grindr.”

    Dude, we don’t live in the kind of climate that produced late 70’s Times Square (or even early 90’s South Central LA). In the funky 1970’s, it didn’t matter how pimply, frizzy-haired, or buck-toothed you were. You were gonna get laid. A lot.

    The weird BDSM stuff (which unlike oral sex is obviously dangerous) is probably linked to mental distress/illness being considerably more common now than it was in the 1930’s-1990’s. Because we live in a Gilded Age, there is a lot of anger/pain/frustration/depression/anxiety, rooted in the sense that people don’t care about each other anymore, nobody can be trusted anymore, everyone is just in it for themselves, etc.

    We go through “wildness” cycles, caused by hedonistic youth (e.g., Boomers and early X-ers being socialized to crave sex and violence in the 60’s and 70’s). But that’s a different beast than cycles of alienation, which are linked to vast rises in inequality. So the early adopter yuppie slimebags of the 1970’s and 1980’s stood out for being detested bringers of corruption and distrust, but society largely accepted their goals by the 1990’s, setting the stage for the beginning of a new Gilded Age in the 2000’s (which is the decade, BTW, when porno started getting a lot weirder).

    Millennials display almost none of the “wild” traits associated with Boomers and X-ers, but do however bear the burden of coming of age during a period of quickly rising corruption. Gen Z is even worse, as they have no memory at all of the slightly less corrupt 80’s and 90’s (let alone the generally laid-back climate of the 1930’s-1960’s).

  272. @216

    Honestly, I revile that as atomization and anomie. Where the cleric and the extended family fall away, the welfare state and the corporation take its place.

    We can agree to disagree.

    I prioritize economic and scientific development. The main reason why I have so many problems with the Negroids, mestizos etc is that they are hampering both through crime, incompetence, affirmative actions, etc.

  273. Feryl says:
    @AaronB

    How old are you? Whites don’t need to be “pressured” to succeed. We’ve already destroyed one generation mentally (Gen Z), because they came of age feeling so much pressure to be “winners”. The dog-eat-dog mentality of Gilded Ages inflicts a lot of psychological damage on people.

    “Hard work”? Only when it makes sense, and not to destructive excess. Boomers, who came of age with very little pressure to succeed in the 1950’s-1970’s, opted to place a lot of their energy into “hard work”. And for what? Look, Gen X hasn’t been right about everything, but they were correct in their resentment of Boomer workaholism.

    What we really need to do is create social and legal pressures on elites to better spread the wealth, and stop gratuitously investing so much of it into themselves and further money making schemes.

    As someone born in 1985, I never thought I’d look back on the 90’s as being a fairly relaxed and happy time, but, here we are. The 2010’s have been the worst decade for Western culture in a long, long time. It’s hard to say when we last experienced a decade so dreadful, although the 1970’s and 1920’s are strong contenders (the 70’s had Boomers pushing car crash rates to record levels and….. Polyester, while the 1920’s were a decade of much interpersonal and political violence, with the deservedly named Lost Generation treating the decade as the last big bash before the modest GI Gen gave us our greatest period ever, the late 1930’s-early 1960’s).

    • Replies: @AaronB
  274. @Rosie

    Of course. Historically this has always been the case in societies with temperate climate.

    It is clear that “abandoned their wives” includes but is not limited to “no longer give resources to their wives in exchange for 0 dollars”.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  275. @Feryl

    It’s not really that much about family obligations even though these clearly seriously hamper wealth accumulation. Instead it is more about the extended family as a form of control. Under the control of some really old guy nobody can get anything new done. What’s even worse under the Confucian system is that even wishes of dead people are sometimes binding. This ensures that almost nothing new and interesting actually got done…ever..until white contact tore down the system.

  276. Rosie says:
    @EastKekistani

    It is clear that “abandoned their wives” includes but is not limited to “no longer give resources to their wives in exchange for 0 dollars”.

    Indeed.

  277. @216

    Speaking of the cleric do you actually believe that some deity/deities exist or do you really just want a authoritarian system for the sake of social control?

    I would like to provide a litmus test. Please answer the following questions:

    1. What should be done about fundamentalist sects of your religion that do not fit in your society for religious reasons?

    2. What should be done if certain authority figures violate religious principles? Shall people be allowed to rebel against these authority figures or report them to their authority figures in this scenario?

    3. What should be done if certain authority figures attempt to force people to violate religious principles?

  278. AaronB says:
    @Feryl

    I agree somewhat.

    I don’t propose we adopt Asian levels of effort. That is harmful to creativity, and isn’t appropriate for whites at this stage. Asians still have much to prove. Whites have a different optimum balance of work/play anyways.

    The “winner” philosophy of the 80s was money above all and ruthless individualism – agree that was extremely harmful and not what I’m talking about.

    Also agree elites should be pressured to better spread the wealth.

    But I do feel after WW2 and especially recently, the West lost faith in its civilization and a lack of purpose set in. And the fact is we live in a competitive world – somehow, we’re still outcompeting Asians despite their incredible drive and ambition advantage. Its really quite astonishing. But if our willingness to sacrifice and work hard continues to fall, it won’t be good.

    Yes, balance – but part of balance is striving to accomplish also. But for that we need a purpose again, a goal – Asians need to vindicate themselves with regard to the West. That’s their goal. What’s our goal? We had one for 500 years – reason, science, the Enlightenment, was gonna make everything perfect.

    No one believes that anymore.

    • Replies: @Feryl
  279. @RSDB

    Well, you certainly make some interesting points, but that really wasn’t quite what I was getting at. It’s actually not really necessary to this idea of partnership that people live under the same roof; I know it’s the practice in some places, but it really depends as much on attitude towards land as towards marriage.

    Marriage norms definitely matter a lot evolutionarily speaking. Of course marriage norms are only a subset of family norms. The latter includes many aspects from whether couples live with or near the family of the husband, the wife or neither to whether daughters can inherit wealth from their parents.

    Neolocalism is good precisely because it can destroy the power of the clan so that there can actually be a civil society. Clannism isn’t bad when the population is low simply because it is actually possible for a tribe to be closely related. On the other hand in a modern society the population is way too high for high levels of clannism to be optimal.

    Assuming colonization, for instance, which you mention, is something you actually want, it seems to have been carried out, historically, extremely successfully by Arabs and Romans, not to mention Chinese

    China colonized almost nothing other than state-imposed settling of northern Xinjiang in the 18th century after the Dzungar Genocide and Fujianese & Hakkas colonizing Taiwan.

    Arabs and Romans had the clan. However they also had something else that is neither a clan nor a Leviathan. Rome had a community of citizens while Arab Muslims had and still have the Ummah.

    , not societies particularly distinguished by a lack of respect for elders.

    I’m usually against having too much social respect because it usually tends to be a form of censorship. It is hard to exchange or even have novel ideas when “DON’T OFFEND ME!!!!!!!!!!” creates a lot of speech taboos that can stop thoughts.

    I haven’t noticed people in love marriages, all things being equal, to be more at home with new technology or more innovative than people in arranged marriages (noting there’s always a spectrum between the two).

    I don’t think whether marriages are arranged matter that much. Instead it is whether married men are actually allowed to be free individuals that matters much more. Any society that de facto disenfranchises almost all men below 50 just does not tend to get much done simply because men above 50 do not tend to be very creative.

    • Replies: @RSDB
  280. RSDB says:
    @EastKekistani

    OK.

    Arabs and Romans had the clan. However they also had something else … Any society that de facto disenfranchises almost all men below 50

    This reminds me of a quote:

    G.K. Chesterton on eugenics: In this sense people say of Eugenics, “After all, whenever we discourage a schoolboy from marrying a mad negress with a hump back, we are really Eugenists.” Again one can only answer, “Confine yourselves strictly to such schoolboys as are naturally attracted to hump-backed negresses; and you may exult in the title of Eugenist, all the more proudly because that distinction will be rare.”

    I’m sure you have a good cause in arguing against whatever conditions you’re arguing against, and I can assure you I wasn’t referring to them.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  281. Feryl says:
    @notanon

    If you understand the cultural cycle theory, 1964-1984 was the “consciousness revolution”, with 1967-1975 being the most intense phase. Reactionary politics began to creep in by the ’76 bicentennial, with Carter de-regulating the airline and trucking industry and the wealthy beginning to hoard more of the wealth (thereby stimulating an impulse that would lead to Reagan’s outrageous tax cuts in 1981). But the consciousness revolution didn’t fully fade away until around 1985, when people stopped joining cults, started going to re-hab, divorce rates declined modestly, and we had the PMRC in the US and the Video Nasty censorship flap in the UK. Indoor smoking bans also began to really go into effect around 1985.

    After 1984, the Unraveling fully commenced. Immigration levels exploded, paranoia about crime and strangers began to run rampant, and all generations neither expected nor wanted sweeping ideological campaigns (whereas in the 1940’s and 50’s, everyone wanted to stop fascism and communism, while in the 60’s and 70’s there was widespread agreement on expanding rights for “minorities”, greater environmental protections, and encouraging creativity.)

    The Unraveling began to peter out in the late 90’s (when crime declined, rock music became more upbeat, theaters began barring minors from attending R-rated movies, hysteria over drugs and child abuse diminished compared to how the public felt in the late 80’s and early 90’s). 9/11 and the Patriot Act killed off the Reagan-Clinton Unraveling, with resurgent nativism and Islamophobia making another 1986 immigration amnesty impossible, while criminal suspects and prisoners lost many of the rights that they had gained in the 1950’s-1970’s.

    Since late 2001 we’ve been in a “Crisis” phase, where there is much earnest and often heated debate about how to tackle the issues facing us. This a much different mood from the Awakening (when most people agree to loosen up), and even the Unraveling (when there is widespread apathy toward civic and political issues).

    Each phase generally lasts about 20-25 years (roughly the time it takes for a generation to reach adulthood). Boomer were born during the High phase of about 1945-1963. Gen X-ers were born during the Awakening phase of about 1964-1981. Millennials were born during the Unraveling phase of about 1982-1996. Of course, the precise boundaries of these cultural eras, and the boundaries of generations, are open to debate and are typically fuzzy. A good rule of thumb when it comes to generations is: what is the earliest era that an entire generation, from first to latest born, can relate to? For Boomers, it’s the 1950’s. For X-ers, it’s the 1970’s. For Millennials, it’s the 1990’s. X-ers can’t possibly understand the mood of the 50’s. Millennials can’t possibly understand the 1970’s. Gen Z can’t possibly understand the 1990’s.

  282. notanon says:
    @Feryl

    China has our fall as a warning.

  283. Feryl says:
    @AaronB

    “The “winner” philosophy of the 80s was money above all and ruthless individualism – agree that was extremely harmful and not what I’m talking about.”

    Ambitious Silents and Boomers were embarrassingly up-front about how self-interested they were. With X-ers and Millennials, it’s more of a low-key resignation that we’re never going to get “our own” 1950’s to enjoy. So we’ve got to keep up even if we feel, on some level, that being in an era of rising corruption and inequality really, really sucks, but what are we supposed to do after Silents and Boomers trashed the place for the last 40-50 years?

    BTW, literal accumulation of money doesn’t matter as much to post-Boomers as it did to Silents and Boomers. Be that as it may, younger generations are still very much attuned to their status, and what they can do to enhance it. Actual wealth holdings are aging with the Silents and Boomers who hoarded so much of it, so us younger folks don’t have much choice but to resort to other means to enhance our status. At Agnostic’s blog (akinokure.blogspot.com) he did a great post about X-ers judge each other based on “lifestyle” (e.g,, where do you play golf or surf? What activities do you encourage your kids to do?) rather than material objects. Millennials, on the other hand, don’t pay much attention to either money or lifestyle, but rather, the kind of “persona” you project. It looks too like poverty has an effect on status totems; Silents and Boomers had the dough to just flat out buy nice cars, bigger houses, cabins, etc. X-ers don’t have as much, and prefer to spend it on exciting activities. Millennials are pretty much broke, and not being able to afford any kind of shiny objects or even activities, they resort to playing a sort of cultivated character in their social lives. Note that a lot of “trendy” Millennials move to “happening” places, even though they can barely afford the rent; at the end of the day, aspiring to play a “cool” character matters more than saving or making money among Millennials, because after all, they have hardly any peers who ever had money in the first place.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  284. @EastKekistani

    If aliens are able to get here, I suspect bacteria and viruses are our only chance.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  285. notanon says:
    @216

    i think there is some truth in that but it may be a function of population size.

    the western marriage model in the context of a small population ends up with everyone vaguely related to everyone else i.e. a much larger extended family.

    however if the population is too large you may end up with people who are too individualistic because they’re not related enough.

    the solution may be splitting up populations into bite-sized chunks like swiss-style cantons.

  286. @EastKekistani

    Snuffing out Africans to better prepare the rest of humanity against the alien onslaught?

    Do not insinuate genocide as a desirable thing here. Schoolmarm hates it and so do I.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  287. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    Talha,

    I actually like the Khalid bin Walid quote; I didn’t like it being attributed to bin Laden as evidence of his nihilism.

    When I heard of the bombings I knew immediately it wasn’t LTTE because many if not most of the victims were sure to be Tamil, and because even when the Tigers did stupid and evil things like blowing up the Temple of the Tooth, there was a rational thought process involved at some level. For that reason I thought it might be Buddhists playing politics, but suicide bombs aren’t a Sinhalese thing, so I figured on foreign Muslims. Locals was a shock. I don’t know what was going on with the police, but I suspect someone was playing politics (probably with the expectation that things would be less serious than they were), I just don’t know who. We will find out eventually, I think.

    People on here tend to detest the Tigers, for international political reasons, I think. I’m not a fan of them myself but they did run a pretty decent impromptu government which is remembered fondly in much of the North, and they got rid of caste discrimination. Many of the reasons people on here give for being fans of Hezbollah would actually apply to the LTTE.

    Local police in Colombo are not incompetent. As for higher-ups, I can’t really say. But had local police known, or people been alerted, it would have made a big difference. In fact, even with no alertness or preparation at all, the Batticaloa guy made himself so suspicious that he failed to bomb the Catholic church he intended to and was about to be escorted away from the church he did bomb when he detonated himself, thus sparing a fair number of lives.

    Again, sorry to go on at length. My main point in coming back on here was to let people know I’m alive, and here I go on all sorts of tangents.

    Peace

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @iffen
  288. @Audacious Epigone

    Yeah. This is why the key is for us to catch them unprepared in their home star system and hopefully on their planet, not the other way around.

  289. @Audacious Epigone

    Nope. I really didn’t mean that. If you check my other comments you can see that I only want to put some form of regulation on Sub-Saharan Africa so that it does not deviate too much from the rest of this planet, not genocide.

  290. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    What happens when everyday activity turns porny?

    Look here:

    Meanwhile at a Jamaican baby shower 😨😭 #FOLLOWME & @ParkedCarConvos on Youtube

    Posted by Lue McClain on Sunday, November 26, 2017

  291. @RSDB

    Maybe Sri Lanka is different. However NE Asia suffered from a very long period of stagnation and ossification. I just don’t want to enter another period of the same shit.

    Well as technologies improve over time the problem is naturally getting solved anyway.

  292. AaronB says:
    @Feryl

    I remember that blog from years ago. I didn’t know he was still around.

    He is basically applying the idea of cycles to microtrends in popular culture. I think the idea of cycles, rather than progress, is a very important idea and should be more widely accepted.

    Basically when a trend gets too extreme it naturally begins to reverse itself.

    Cycles can be combined with progress in that the next stage can be a better balance between extremes, but then that too always breaks down.

    Its an interesting blog and he has the right idea, but I personally am not so interested in popular culture trends specifically.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  293. @EastKekistani

    After this absurdly financialized false economy bubble bursts, the resulting impoverishment, unemployment, and dollar depreciation is going to send even more millennials back into their parents’ houses while keeping Gen Zs from ever leaving. This will increase tribalism within the US, accentuating the demographic fault lines that are already growing.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  294. @Audacious Epigone

    After this absurdly financialized false economy bubble bursts,

    Yeah. Sadly this time the world economy may enter a long-term secular decline….because there aren’t enough young and middle-aged people among high-IQ races left to do many jobs and consume a lot of goods.

    Then I hope this won’t cause WWIII.

    the resulting impoverishment, unemployment, and dollar depreciation is going to send even more millennials back into their parents’ houses while keeping Gen Zs from ever leaving.

    Sigh.

    This will increase tribalism within the US, accentuating the demographic fault lines that are already growing.

    Yeah. I hope there will be a way out.

    I’m thinking about writing a novel that describes my Dystopia. The current global demographic decline led to long-term global economic decline. Radical political movements formed and took over multiple countries. Radicals carelessly plunged the world into WWIII using WMD caused widespread destructions and eradicated all humans other than Negroids, Australoids and Negritos. Economic collapse became total.

    • Replies: @iffen
  295. @AaronB

    Culture cycles? Is the dude you mentioned Peter Turchin?

    http://peterturchin.com/

    • Replies: @AaronB
  296. Wency says:
    @Rosie

    The differences in these experiences are amazing. I guess part of it is mainly male friends vs. mainly female friends. If your friends are mainly good people of one sex, then you’ll have plenty of stories of their spouses not being up to par.

    The most recent divorce I’m familiar with: the wife, previously a homebody, decided at age 34 that she wanted to go out drinking for hours with her girlfriends literally 5-6 nights every week, often not coming home (supposedly staying the night with a girlfriend who lived near the bar), other times arriving well after midnight. I would guess that she cheated on him some number of times.

    Also, she decided to adopt 5 cats and 3 dogs shortly before all this, saddling her husband with their care. Luckily they didn’t have kids. He’s just a somewhat dorky nice guy, no vices, who wanted to make it work, and she stonewalled him in all of his efforts to save the marriage. Wouldn’t even do counseling.

    Luckily it sounds like the divorce was not too financially ruinous for him.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    , @Rosie
  297. iffen says:

    I am a bit disappointed, but not surprised, that out of all the learned commenters here, none have attempted to explain why a man who sells his brain, muscle, back or soul for dollars is considered “better than” a woman who sells her body for the sexual pleasure of another.

  298. iffen says:
    @EastKekistani

    WTF is it with you and your “Negroid” obession? Endlessly complaining about the fact that there are more Negroes than one can shake a stick at is like complaining about the weather.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  299. @Wency

    Why stay married to a woman in her mid-thirties without any children? What’s the point?

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @RSDB
    , @Wency
  300. @iffen

    In the case of the man, the dollars earned presumably create some net utilitarian value for society that the dollars earned by prostitutes does not create?

    • Replies: @iffen
  301. iffen says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Like hos don’t shop at Kroger?

    Like spectator sports are verboten?

    Like screwing is not valuable to society?

  302. iffen says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Do you really believe that the only reason for marriage is to produce children?

  303. @iffen

    Not the only one, but the primary reason, yes.

  304. RSDB says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    That you swore to.

    • Agree: Rosie
    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Audacious Epigone
  305. RSDB says:
    @iffen

    I think the key point is here: sells his … soul

    That would be pretty bad.

    • Replies: @iffen
  306. iffen says:
    @RSDB

    There is no virtue, all is lost.

  307. iffen says:
    @RSDB

    Depends upon one’s idea of the soul, doesn’t it?

    • Replies: @RSDB
  308. RSDB says:
    @iffen

    I suppose, if by “soul” you mean something like “green Jaguar”.

    But in general, in either a conversational (e.g. X has “sold his soul” and is writing propaganda for Tyrannical Government Y) or a theological sense, I don’t see much of a problem.

    • Replies: @iffen
  309. Talha says:
    @RSDB

    Again, sorry to go on at length.

    Not at all, I learned more about the Tamil Tigers than I think I ever have. I don’t think I honestly ever had an opinion on the group. They simply seemed to be one of a number of break away ethnic insurgent groups around the world. Plenty of those exist; for legitimate reasons and not.

    My general outlook is that I don’t like any group that makes it a matter of policy to kill random civilians, especially women, children and elderly. This was the main reason why people like me turned against the second Chechen insurgency fairly early on. To this day, I still believe the attack on the school at Beslan is the worst terrorist attack ever (not in quantity, but in principle) – they specifically targeted children – absolutely unacceptable and despicable.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @RSDB
    , @Rosie
  310. iffen says:
    @RSDB

    I mean your essence. When you bend your knee and do what you have to do instead of what your soul told you that you could do.

    • Replies: @RSDB
  311. AaronB says:
    @EastKekistani

    No its the website feryl referenced. I’m familiar with Turchin. Cyclical time is an ancient idea that’s been around for a long time. It used to be mainstream.

    You know the theory about aliens, don’t you? They are the modern versions of fairies, monsters from the depths. Strange apparitions we can’t explain.

    There’s an article today about how there has recently been a large uptick in Navy pilots spotting UFOs – many of them responsible men with the engineering degree, etc. The Navy has actually decided to finally draft official protocol for reporting these incidents.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Audacious Epigone
  312. iffen says:
    @Talha

    for legitimate reasons and not.

    I’m really thankfull that you are around to sort these for us.

  313. iffen says:
    @AaronB

    an ancient idea that’s been around for a long time.

    Smok’em if you’ve got’em.

  314. iffen says:
    @RSDB

    My main point in coming back on here was to let people know I’m alive

    Keep on keeping on.

    • Replies: @RSDB
  315. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    “Good point. I don’t really know why the upper class don’t see prostitution as shameful.”

    But my point was that the upper class sees prostitution as shameful. I’m confused.

    ————————

    I will agree that “the upper classes have always had a much more lax attitude towards sexual matters than the prim middle class”, as long as we understand “always” to mean “for the last few centuries in the west”. I don’t know that the middle class is always and everywhere more prim than the upper; ironically, you might be being parochial here.

    —————————–

    Also: “There were prostitutes who were educated and refined and considred suitable companions for the nobility and were highly sought after (Pericles got political advice from his courtesan)”. I’m reminded of Theodora of Byzantium, a prostitute who became empress. But that was probably a huge scandal at the time, and we just don’t think of it as such because Theodora’s faction won the civil war.

    Note that, even if Theodora wasn’t really a whore, but that this was a lie made up by her enemies, then it’s still the case that being a prostitute wasn’t high status in Byzantium – and that therefore we should express a similar skepticism about other cases of high-falutin’ whores. We may be reading history as written by dishonest political enemies, or we may be reading history as written by the victors, who write out a widespread public distaste for their flouting of sexual mores.

    ————————

    I’ll agree that “prostitution was an accepted part of all historical societs”, but I think you’re failing to distinguish between acceptance-as-fatalism and acceptance-as-respect. (That might not be the best word.)

    Let’s make a modern comparison: drugs. A great many people “accept” drug use, insofar as they don’t think it’s a big deal, it’s somewhat inevitable, the cure is worse than the disease, etc. But these same great many people wouldn’t want their kids taking drugs, nor their leaders, etc. They “accepted” Obama’s youthful cocaine use, but if they found out he was still doing it as president, they’d be disturbed.

    This follows for those societies that legalise prostitution, too. Maybe the frogs or Italians wouldn’t frown on hearing about some respected figure banging the whoo-ers, but the Germans certainly would. (Probably. What do I know?)

    Again: “accepted” but not respected, i.e. still shameful.

    ———————————-

    And why is it still shameful? For the reasons I outlined before.

    I agree that a broad view is important, and that the world is pretty weird and wonderful.

    But there are certain verities, things that are broadly true across most cultures. They might vary in intensity across space and time – you’re correct that Anglo-puritan culture frowns on sex more than other cultures, and frowned on it even more in the Victorian era – but with these verities, they almost never vary to the point that the universal truth isn’t true.

    Taboos against stealing, for instance: I can’t think of any culture that permits stealing. (Although there are those, e.g. gypsies, that permit stealing from outsiders.)

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Audacious Epigone
  316. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    “Are romance novels “pr0n”?”

    100%, but women won’t admit it.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  317. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @L Woods

    Nonetheless, that’s how a lot of men think.

    They also define manhood by one’s ability to win a fight, or to lift heavy things, or to catch a particularly large fish, or to consume large quantities of alcohol, or to withstand especially spicy food…

    I don’t see the sense in getting all worked up about it.

  318. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wency

    Excellent points you and whoever you were replying to.

    I do suppose though that the “women don’t like competition” angle is more about women’s subconscious desires as molded by evolutionary/economic pressures.

    But that might be a cop-out.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @Wency
  319. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    I’m not positing “calculation” – it would be a person of rare mental clarity who could see the reasons why they thought the things they did. I’m positing that human nature, biological reality, economic law and evolution conspire to produce a certain result, i.e. that women would frown on sluttiness.

    Why women think they think what they think is another matter entirely.

    Most men don’t think of themselves as engaging in a lifelong dick-measuring contest, but that’s pretty much what they’re doing most of the time.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  320. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dr. Robert Morgan

    What about people who pretend to be doctors?

  321. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Feryl

    …I’m not sure what you mean by “backwards”. It seems to me that both drug abuse and crime are linked to poor impulse control and a lack of conscientiousness. In other words, the same kinds of assholes are likely to be crazy, drunk, high, violent, and so forth.

    That’s exactly what I meant – but talk to a lot of “normies”, and you’ll find they think that there’s a causal relationship between drug use and crime:

    1. A perfectly nice person takes drugs
    2. Drugs cause addiction
    3. Addiction causes poverty
    4. Poverty causes theft

  322. AaronB says:
    @anon

    I guess to really settle this matter we’d have to do a fairly detailed and comprehensive survey of attitudes both historical and of contemporary foreign cultures, with extensive documentation and footnotes lol.

    My opinions are based on – history I’ve read, literature I’ve read, personal experiences with Asians and high status men in the West, and a few other sources that merely corroborated what I already knew, like YouTube videos and documentaries.

    And I think I have a different understanding of male psychology than you do – I just don’t think shame at visiting a prostitute because of the implication that you can’t attract women on your own is innate. Its obvious that men who can easily attract women might find it easier and more convenient to visit prostitutes, and other men simply won’t care. I think this attitude is culturally learned.

    I have noticed that this attitude seems particularly strong in Anglo men – it is far less strong in European men I have met. And it isn’t a coincidence that Anglo culture also created game/pua – which also shares the attitude that a mans value is defined by women’s reactions.

    Its something about Anglo culture, especially in our times. And its not a coincidence that feminism as female supremacism emerged out if this milieu as well.

    All three phenomena are related.

    I think the only way for you to see a different perspective would be to live in a foreign culture for a while. But in the meantime, I think something about the Anglo milieu at the moment creates these female supremacist attitudes, like game, etc, and it’s really hard for some men to see beyond that.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Audacious Epigone
  323. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    That’s a good outlook. It’s hard to say in the case of the Tigers, because there’s still a lot of vitriol on both sides, and, unlike the situation with modern Muslim groups, nobody wants to admit to being or harboring violent sociopaths. In general, I’d say the LTTE didn’t see killing civilians (unless they were connected in LTTE eyes to government organizations) as an objective, but was pretty cavalier about civilians dying. But there were definitely exceptions– retaliatory murders, for instance, and at least one massacre of prisoners. And then there are things that are harder to pin down: in 1990, for instance, someone entered a mosque near Batticaloa and shot it up. To this day Tamils will tell you it was the government and Sinhalese will tell you it was the Tigers; since whoever did it clearly intended to create an atrocity to smear the other side, I can believe either and I don’t think anyone but the perpetrators, who are probably dead by now, is really sure.

    Muslims typically speak Tamil even if they are not Tamil, probably due to having arrived as traders to Tamil-speaking port areas.

    And with the Tamil part of the war you have to consider that it developed slowly, in different phases. Before 1983, the Tigers were only one group among many, and the question was: how do we achieve our political aims (independence, but they would probably have settled for less)? At this point the war was limited to guerrilla actions, assassinations, and sabotage bombings. Between 1983 and the IPKF the question became: how do we survive as a people? This is when real hatreds were forged. During the IPKF the question was: how do we get rid of this onerous occupation? Indians think the IPKF atrocity stories are false. They are not. After the IPKF left the question, which was the final question and never solved, was: how do we (now only the Tigers, having assassinated their rivals) defend this largely indefensible and internationally unrecognized territory of which we have somehow become master?

    And some of the time there was an entirely unrelated war in the south, which was settled even more brutally under Premadasa (who was actually pretty friendly with the Tigers, which makes the official story that they murdered him, rather than the political enemies he was rubbing out, somewhat doubtful).

    Wikipedia generally reflects the official view, but sometimes some kind of Tamil view, Tiger or other. The LTTE propaganda site is still being run, I think from the US: https://www.tamilnet.com/

    Of course all this is largely before I was even born, so I have it at second hand and I am probably biased. My sources certainly are. For a long time Colombo could be a deadly place for a Tamil and every checkpoint was a source of acute worry. Bizarrely the checkpoints were sponsored by Laugfs gas and typically read: Power of Lanka Laugfs, an unsettling image. Fortunately for me I am a pretty obvious American.

    Civil wars get very complex very fast.

    But the LTTE always had a reason for what they did, no matter how stupid (like the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi) or evil. And they were generally pretty courteous to foreigners (though I was never in an LTTE-controlled area, just for the record). They would sink Sri Lankan ships without warning, which happened to my uncle’s ship, but they would allow the survivors to be rescued.

    Wow, that was a screed. I should stay off UR at night.

    Wish all of you the best this Paschal season.

  324. RSDB says:
    @iffen

    It wasn’t really a question of choice, I was just lucky 🙂

  325. RSDB says:
    @iffen

    Well, I think that falls on the cusp of the theological and conversational meanings. And the degree to which you have to do it is important.

    Suppose you are Christian and an ISIS member holds a knife to your throat and invites you to Islam. You’re culpable if you accept, but not very.

    Suppose on the other hand Saladin promises to remit your taxes for the same action. Now in all probability, barring extreme circumstances, your culpability is considerably greater if you accept.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @iffen
  326. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    Ha! I don’t even remember how this debate got started, or why, and I certainly agree that we aren’t going to settle it. FWIW, I think you’re still failing to take my point, or perhaps making the same mistake over and over again.

    Its obvious that men who can easily attract women might find it easier and more convenient to visit prostitutes, and other men simply won’t care.

    If other men won’t care – and if “men who can easily attract women” don’t feel shame – then these men wouldn’t feel the need to hide their paid liaisons; they would be bragging about fucking whores with the same frequency that they brag about fucking other women.

    What culture exists where this is widespread?

    I don’t want to repeat my other arguments, so I’ll leave it at that. Unless… did I mention that “men who can easily attract women” is a tiny subset of men, and that therefore “men who feel no shame about banging whores” is a tiny subset of men, and therefore largely irrelevant? I don’t think I did.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  327. @Wency

    I swear, anyone pushing that angle has no clue how women think. Women are mostly normies, even more so than men. They don’t like sexbots because they’re gross and weird and eww. They don’t frame such topics intellectually in terms of how it affects the balance of power between the sexes. Few are capable of thinking explicitly about this issue.

    Well, this issue doesn’t have to manifest itself in explicit thoughts. Instead the “balance of power” or more accurately power maximization at any cost is something all animals including humans practice. Humans just sometimes think about it. Non-human animals don’t but they still practice it anyway.

    By the way the male version of this issue is historically usually even nastier than the female version. It is about violence and blackmailing using the ability to commit violence. Manipulation is really a lesser issue compared to outright massacres.

  328. @anon

    I do suppose though that the “women don’t like competition” angle is more about women’s subconscious desires as molded by evolutionary/economic pressures.

    Yep. Due to the amoral nature of the universe organisms are usually nastier than what we think they are. A significant portion of life of an organism is often devoted to defending against hostile agents. This isn’t just true at the level of organisms. Even cells in an organism can defect against all other cells. This is known as cancer. Hell, even some genes are fairly nasty. Intragenomic conflicts actually exist.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intragenomic_conflict

  329. @RSDB

    Suppose on the other hand Saladin promises to remit your taxes for the same action. Now in all probability, barring extreme circumstances, your culpability is considerably greater if you accept.

    Speaking of the Jizya this is ironically how non-Muslims tend to become wealthier than Muslims on average in Muslim societies. Basically poorer people tend to convert to Islam over time because they can not pay the Jizya. This causes non-Muslim groups to gradually become predominantly rich.

    One interesting fact is that the Copts who were once considered a fairly poor group became richer than average in Egypt. That’s because poorer Copts converted to Islam over time and were no longer considered Copts.

  330. L Woods says:
    @iffen

    Contrarily, why is the latter considered a “victim” and not the former? Of course, that’s a rhetorical question.

  331. AaronB says:
    @anon

    But they don’t hide it. They’re quite open about it to their male friends. They go to prostitutes together with their male friends.

    In Asia and Japan businessman finalize deals in karaoke parlors where you pay for female companionship, and companies frequently arrange a prostitute for you as a gesture of goodwill.

    You’re very skeptical, but you’re not googling this stuff.

    They only hide it from their wives, for the purpose of maintaining healthy marriages. The wives know what’s going on, but mostly don’t care so long as it isn’t flaunted.

    Again the sanction against flaunting has nothing to do with shame at not being able to attract women, but at preserving the appearance of harmonious families – sexual morality.

    Sex is “no big deal” in Asia and there is no shame in paying for it. Most Asian men secure wives based on their good character and ability to provide for families not their Adonis like good looks and sheer charisma, so their isn’t this culture of preening oneself on ones “ability” to attract women, except among a minority.

    As you say, only a tiny fraction of men can attract women for sex based on looks alone – and only a tiny fraction of women likewise.

    For most people, it’s a combination of looks, character, personality, status, and finances. Most people don’t have this attitude of preening oneself on ones ability to attract women, especially older men.

    And most men on any level have no problem finding women who are interested in them – I hope you didn’t mean only a tiny fraction of men are capable of generating female interest?

    If so I emphatically disagree. All men st any level can easily find women in their level.

    However such men might want to pay for companionship from more attractive women than they can get, or more quick and easy sex with no courtship or the possibility of rejection, etc.

    Only the Western Anglo cultures Andrei to stigmatize this behavior.

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @anon
    , @L Woods
  332. iffen says:
    @RSDB

    Nothing like a little persecution to separate the wheat from the chaff.

    • Replies: @Talha
  333. Corvinus says:
    @EastKekistani

    “Well, I simply don’t believe that most women love their partners and spouses in any society at all. ”

    You must have really gotten burned in a relationship to have that sad sack attitude.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  334. Corvinus says:
    @216

    “In comparison to a low value man being cuckolded and destroyed by an ex-wife in divorce court, there is some logic to that thinking.”

    Over 95% of all divorces end up being settled equitably out of court. Assuredly, there are instances of a man–not a “low value man”–getting pillaged and plundered as a result of divorce. Perhaps their bitterness is well-founded or ill-conceived.

    “The average woman stands to benefit from a society where beta male sexuality is contained…”

    Assuming that the social-sexual hierarchy exists and operates in the manner that Heartiste and Vox Day prescribe.

    “In the same visage, women tend to be more tolerant of polygamy…”

    Not in the United States.

    “Western feminists have a tendency to taunt self-proclaimed incels to become gay…”

    Do you have specific examples?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  335. @Corvinus

    You must have really gotten burned in a relationship to have that sad sack attitude.

    You don’t really need that. Just read some history. Humans are cruel. Animals are cruel. The universe is cruel. Societies will of course pretend that moral laws actually hold universally because blind faith in such a pro-social myth does help making moral laws work. Fiction is written by humans to provide bogus examples to deceive other humans into thinking that moral laws actually work.

    In reality there are only ethical conventions within groups that are often violated and can be destroyed at any time.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    , @notanon
  336. AaronB says:
    @AaronB

    The reason I am arguing this and not letting it go, is because I think this attitude that men’s value depends on women’s reaction is very unhealthy for both men and women and the dynamic between them.

    Look, of course a certain part of ones feeling of self worth is determined by how much we are socially successful, liked by bosses, friends, and women. That’s our nature as social beings.

    But this has become blown out of all proportion, and game/pua attitudes are socially unhealthy. They emerged out of the same milieu as last wave non-equalitarian feminism, which is female supremacism.

    If you were against prostitution for family reasons, I’d be more sympathetic but point you towards the Asian/historical European model of public/private dichotomy, and even then agree the middle class needs to be more prim about these things.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Mikel
  337. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    But they don’t hide it. They’re quite open about it to their male friends. They go to prostitutes together with their male friends.

    In Asia and Japan businessman finalize deals in karaoke parlors where you pay for female companionship, and companies frequently arrange a prostitute for you as a gesture of goodwill.

    Again, the question isn’t whether this happens, but how widespread it is. I can point you to examples of American men being open about it, but it’s hardly the norm. (Notice that they’re open about it “to their male friends”. There are lots of relatively shameful things one might nonetheless admit to one’s friends, especially if one’s friends were just as shameful.)

    You’re very skeptical, but you’re not googling this stuff.

    What good would that do? I would either find something that confirmed what I already thought, and agree with it, or find something that didn’t, and remain skeptical. I hardly have the time or pre-existing knowledge on the subject to separate fact from fiction, so unless I’m prepared to sink quite a lot of effort into learning, then five minutes of Googling isn’t going to be worth much.

    Of course, I did find the time to argue pointlessly back and forth with a stranger on the internet…

    As you say, only a tiny fraction of men can attract women for sex based on looks alone…

    You’re confusing “men who can easily attract women” to mean “good-looking men”. Perhaps this was what you meant by it – I was quoting you – but that’s certainly not what I said.

    Women aren’t as interested in looks as men. So there’s nothing unusual about “Most Asian men” in your comment: most Anglo men secure wives for the same reasons, although I suspect you’re undervaluing charisma a little.

    Most people don’t have this attitude of preening oneself on ones ability to attract women, especially older men.

    It’s hardly “preening” to take pride in your achievements. And older men are just as prone to it, although they will be “preening” themselves on past glories.

    …most men on any level have no problem finding women who are interested in them…

    Well, “on any level” doesn’t matter: of course higher-level men don’t have trouble finding interested women. But lower-level men? The ever-growing hordes of lonely cat ladies and bitter porn addicts would suggest that you’re wrong.

  338. Rosie says:
    @Wency

    The differences in these experiences are amazing. I guess part of it is mainly male friends vs. mainly female friends. If your friends are mainly good people of one sex, then you’ll have plenty of stories of their spouses not being up to par.

    That probably has something to do with it. Still, men around here often claim that the courts are biased against men. The more parsimonious explanation, if a man gets a bad deal from a (usually male) judge, he was the one who was determined to be at fault for failure of the marriage.

    He’s just a somewhat dorky nice guy, no vices, who wanted to make it work, and she stonewalled him in all of his efforts to save the marriage. Wouldn’t even do counseling.

    That is a real shame, but here again, do you know anything about the events that led up to this? Sometimes, a man decides at the eleventh hour to start caring about his marriage, but by then it’s too little too late. The wife has moved on, and feels nothing but resentment for him.

  339. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    This was the main reason why people like me turned against the second Chechen insurgency fairly early on. To this day, I still believe the attack on the school at Beslan is the worst terrorist attack ever (not in quantity, but in principle) – they specifically targeted children – absolutely unacceptable and despicable.

    Russia should have let them go.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @EastKekistani
  340. Rosie says:
    @iffen

    I am a bit disappointed, but not surprised, that out of all the learned commenters here, none have attempted to explain why a man who sells his brain, muscle, back or soul for dollars is considered “better than” a woman who sells her body for the sexual pleasure of another.

    He isn’t necessarily better, and he may be worse. That’s why we often refer to politicians and journalists as prostitutes.

  341. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    I think this attitude that men’s value depends on women’s reaction is very unhealthy…

    Since the continuation of the human race depends, to a large part, on a woman’s “reaction” to a man, I’d say it’s a pretty good thing, all things considered.

    I suppose it’s possible to have too much of a good thing, but I think things aren’t so bad for men on this score. We could derive our self-worth from our ability to attract the opposite sex to the extent that women do – then we’d really be in trouble!

    • Replies: @AaronB
  342. Rosie says:
    @anon

    100%, but women won’t admit it.

    Except that there is no need to use actual human beings to produce it, being all imaginary. That’s not to say I approve of raunchy novels, mind you.

    • Replies: @anon
  343. Rosie says:
    @Corvinus

    Over 95% of all divorces end up being settled equitably out of court. Assuredly, there are instances of a man–not a “low value man”–getting pillaged and plundered as a result of divorce. Perhaps their bitterness is well-founded or ill-conceived.

    And why would a judge destroy a man in divorce court whom he believes did nothing wrong?

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  344. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    I didn’t realise AI had come so far already

    • Replies: @Rosie
  345. Rosie says:
    @anon

    I’m not positing “calculation” – it would be a person of rare mental clarity who could see the reasons why they thought the things they did. I’m positing that human nature, biological reality, economic law and evolution conspire to produce a certain result, i.e. that women would frown on sluttiness.

    OK, fair enough. Now my question to you is this: Given that your claim about women’s motives is unfalsifiable, useless, and alienating, why bother saying it?

    It is in fact a classic genetic fallacy when you psychoanalyze a person to undermine their position, rather than simply opting to focus on the merits of the issue at hand, to wit, whether or not prostitution is salutary for society and/or the individuals involved.

    • Replies: @anon
  346. AaronB says:
    @anon

    The continuation of the human race depends on the sexes being attracted to each other – it’s a natural, spontaneous thing. Nature saw to it. Believe me, if she left it to the individual man consciously trying to earn female admiration we’d have gone extinct long ago. Its much too important to leave to the error prone conscious mind.

    Of course, both men and women also seek to consciously increase attraction by dressing better, being pleasant and polite, etc. There’s a role for that too, certainly. But the bulk of our attractiveness is not under our control.

    And seeking to increase attractiveness is not the same as basing one’s self worth on how the other sex reacts to one. The first is healthy and the second neurotic and unhealthy.

    But I have had enough conversations with men on this topic to know this is a fundamental divide psychologically among men – some men simply define their value based on female reactions, and some men find that sad.

    Its similar to the divide Trevor Lynch makes between bourgeois values and honor. They just are different value systems.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @anon
  347. Talha says:
    @iffen

    Seems to be part of the program:
    “Do men think that they will be left alone to say, ‘We believe’, and that they will not be tested? We certainly tried those who have gone before them, so God will indeed distinguish between those who are truthful and those who are lying.“ (29:2-3)

    Peace.

  348. Rosie says:
    @anon

    I didn’t realise AI had come so far already

    Cute. In any event, you don’t need human beings to perform sex acts on camera.

    • Replies: @anon
  349. Wency says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    I agree it’s stupid, but in the same way that Leonidas’ decision to hold Thermopylae was stupid. The guy was a man of his word.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  350. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    They probably will eventually. I think the Russians were fine with them being separate but then the idiot Salafi-Wahhabi extremists started coming in and attacked neighboring places like Dagestan and others in order to create their “Emirate in the Cacausus” and Russia did not want that spreading into its territories in the region. But that whole business was kind of on the Russians too, they assassinated the one man that could have held an independent Chechnya together and kept those extremists out; Dudayev. But apparently they had to avenge their butt-hurtery from the first war of independence.

    Peace.

  351. @Rosie

    Russia should have let them go.

    Unfortunately this is not how the cruel universe works. I’m very sorry.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  352. Rosie says:
    @Wency

    I agree it’s stupid, but in the same way that Leonidas’ decision to hold Thermopylae was stupid. The guy was a man of his word.

    It would be strange indeed if a man could hook up with a woman in her twenties, use her for sex for ten years, and then say, “We don’t have any kids, so I’m outta here.” Surely the decision not to have kids was taken in common, and if it wasn’t, why didn’t he leave a long time ago?

    • Replies: @Wency
    , @Pericles
  353. Rosie says:
    @EastKekistani

    Unfortunately this is not how the cruel universe works. I’m very sorry.

    Really? Personally, I would enthusiastically support Calexit. Call it enlightened self-interest.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  354. @Rosie

    Russia is in a different situation. I suspect that just like in the case of China there are a lot of Russian nationalists who do not want Russia to give up even one inch of territory for whatever reasons. If that’s the case then Putin will have to do its utmost to keep Chechenya in Russia or he may lose support.

    Moreover the relationship between Russia and Chechenya is a bit weird. Chechens and half-Chechens actually sometimes have important positions in the Russian government or fight clandestine foreign wars on Russia’s behalf. So it is possible that the Russian military actually needs Chechens.

    P.S. There is no such thing as “should” in politics. I’m sorry. That’s just not how the universe works.

    • Replies: @Talha
  355. Rosie says:
    @AaronB

    But I have had enough conversations with men on this topic to know this is a fundamental divide psychologically among men – some men simply define their value based on female reactions, and some men find that sad.

    Such men are not to be trusted. If they define their own value based on women’s attraction to them, then they presumably define women’s value based on men’s attraction to us. Where will they be when you are growing old and your beauty is fading?

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  356. Wency says:
    @Rosie

    From what I could see, they had a pretty good friendship, spent lots of time together while still having plenty of friends outside the marriage (including me).

    A switch just flipped, in the span of maybe a month, where she went from always spending time with him to never being around, mainly after she made a new friend (who incidentally happened to be divorced). One detail to add: she didn’t make much money, and was spending a LOT of his earnings on her drinking habit.

    I’m not the biggest fan of the manosphere mentality, but this incident seemed to support some of their beliefs. He was too passive, didn’t stick up for himself enough, didn’t challenge her, and I’d guess she ended up resenting him for it. In particular, the way he let her fill the house with animals and then disappear — you could call that a “shit test”. Also the way he let her rack up a credit card balance.

    And post-divorce he’s still taking way more of the animals than he wants to, and I’d predict he’s going to keep them until they die, even though he would like to be rid of them.

  357. @Rosie

    Where will they be when you are growing old and your beauty is fading?

    Yeppo. Hence a sufficiently rational man is likely to be an MGTOW in any society where men do most of the work. Similarly in societies where women do most of the work a sufficiently rational woman is likely to be an WGTOW. This phenomenon is not about sexuality for a sufficiently rational person can see through it for what it is. Instead it is about raw self-interest.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  358. Rosie says:
    @EastKekistani

    Hence a sufficiently rational man is likely to be an MGTOW in any society where men do most of the work.

    Because homemaking and childcare isn’t “work.”

    Instead it is about raw self-interest.

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  359. Talha says:
    @EastKekistani

    or fight clandestine foreign wars on Russia’s behalf. So it is possible that the Russian military actually needs Chechens.

    Yup, they deployed Chechens in places like Syria.

    That’s the reason we need them to be eventually broken off, we need them for the same purpose in hot zones.

    Give me a thousand Chechens backed by another two thousand Uzbeks and I can pretty much guarantee you the Rohingya crisis will be over in a month.

    Peace.

  360. Rosie says:
    @Wency

    I’m not the biggest fan of the manosphere mentality, but this incident seemed to support some of their beliefs. He was too passive, didn’t stick up for himself enough, didn’t challenge her, and I’d guess she ended up resenting him for it. In particular, the way he let her fill the house with animals and then disappear — you could call that a “shit test”. Also the way he let her rack up a credit card balance.

    I utterly reject the notion of the “shit-test” in its entirety, but I certainly acknowledge that women are sometimes at fault for marital breakdown. Women can become alcoholics, etc. Also, I think that middle age is a particularly vulnerable time for a marriage, especially among secular people, who really do believe this life is all there is, and it’s already half (or more) over. The stereotype is that only men suffer from a mid-life crisis, but I’m sure it happens to women, too.

    As I alluded to above, having hobbies that one is passionate about helps in this regard. If the only excitement one sees in life concerns the opposite sex, it’s going to be difficult to find contentment in a life-long marriage, even for religious people.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    , @notanon
  361. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Unfalsifiable? Fair enough. Alienating? A matter of perception, but also fair enough.

    Useless? Hardly.

    Knowing that most people are misguided as to their own motives helps us ignore what they say and focus on what they do, and thereby approach the truth.

    WRT sluts, over the last few decades, women have been encouraged to become sluttier. Knowing that women will naturally tend to abhor sluttiness helps us understand that this was a bad idea.

    And I don’t know that I’ve been psychoanalysing anybody, nor that the issue at hand is the one you mention. Scrolling back to the beginning, I’m reminded that I was talking about sex bots to begin with, and that this tangential argument was about why women frown on prostitution. The effects of prostitution on society and its participants are tangential even to the tangent.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  362. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    It was only half-facetious. Textual porn may be relatively harmless to its producers, but I don’t half wonder whether it isn’t similarly damaging to the consumers. We’ve all heard about the weird and unrealistic sexual expectations young men have these days; might not women raised on a steady diet of Mills & Boon be similarly warped?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  363. Rosie says:
    @anon

    We’ve all heard about the weird and unrealistic sexual expectations young men have these days; might not women raised on a steady diet of Mills & Boon be similarly warped?

    Yes. Her Imperial Majesty Queen Rosie I would it ban it wholesale.

  364. @Wency

    All I can take away from it is reinforcing some manosphere observations: women HATE beta males. He was too passive, didn’t stick up for himself enough, didn’t challenge her, and I’d guess she ended up resenting him for it.

    I won’t use the word “hate”. This is just one part of the amoral universe being what it is.

    In order to understand this phenomenon we first need to understand what is the origin of male power. Here some rad fems are actually right. Male power is a consequence of male ability to harm. This is easy to observe. The male violence rate is much higher than the female violence rate. Most crimes are committed by men. Inter-gender violence is predominantly men beating, injuring and even murdering women. In history this is literally what happened. Male animals including men are often abusive towards females from the same species. Spousal abuse and rape are not uniquely human phenomena.

    Now some people may argue that male power is from the male ability to protect females. Well, the ability to protect is really the same as the ability to harm. People who can’t harm anyone can not protect anyone. Hence “male protection” is originally fairly similar to extortion by organized crime (or taxation by the government). That is, “protection” means the protector will prevent others from harming the protected through his ability to harm.

    Beta males are really an a lot more recent phenomenon among northern agriculturalists. Humans are a tropical, African species. After humans left Africa and entered colder areas such as Europe and NE Asia and later began to farm the conditions were so poor that heavy labor was required for people to survive in Malthusian conditions. Since men evolved to be more capable at violence compared to women this also caused men to be able to perform harder labor. In the cruel northern conditions men began to do most of the agricultural work, that is, men became economic providers which was a new development because among tropical agriculturalists it was often women who did most of the work. This dependence on male labor caused the familiar patriarchy to be established because men managed to blackmail women in such conditions: either submit to a man or starve to death. In order to survive women had to submit to men until the Industrial Revolution allowed many women to be self-sufficient again after which the patriarchy naturally waned. On the other hand in tropical and wet regions instead of patriarchies matrilocal and matrilineal societies were often formed where marriages are unstable and men are basically economic parasites depending on (and using extortion/protection to benefit from) female labor. These males dependent on the new northern agriculturalist Malthusian system who are good and peaceful providers are known as beta males. Such societies tended to heavily crack down on violence and had a strong selection bias towards beta males.

    After the Industrial Revolution conditions that led to the patriarchy no longer exist. Hence we witness something known as feminism. The rise of feminism is as natural as the previous rise of patriarchy for both are consequences of socioeconomic conditions. If Malthusian conditions ever return to northern societies one day some form of the patriarchy will return which again has nothing to do with morals, just socioeconomic conditions. Changing socioeconomic conditions caused beta males to suffer because they are not adapted to the new conditions.

  365. Rosie says:
    @anon

    Knowing that most people are misguided as to their own motives helps us ignore what they say …

    Precisely, it’s an excuse for ignoring women, a debate-stopper. It is obnoxious whether it is done to women or to men.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @anon
  366. @Rosie

    Because homemaking and childcare isn’t “work.”

    Of course they are work. However crucially an MGTOW dude doesn’t need childcare and a lot of the gender roles are socially constructed, that is, men can actually easily learn housework that is traditionally considered female. I do suspect that one key reason for this idea that certain work isn’t male to rise is to trick men into believing that they somehow need wives in order to remain alive or healthy which is obviously a pro-social myth. Nope. We can clean our rooms, wash our clothes, cook and sew. We have no need for wives.

    The truth does not end here. In a post-Industrial Revolution world women don’t need men to remain alive either.

    • LOL: Truth
  367. @Rosie

    Precisely, it’s an excuse for ignoring women, a debate-stopper. It is obnoxious whether it is done to women or to men.

    Well, as I said before, male motives aren’t benign either. They are often even worse than female motives.

    In fact one key reason why most women don’t do well at the top levels of politics is precisely because women are usually not malicious enough to do so. At the top level politics has to include murder. You can not get around that. All societies have some form of killing mechanisms, that is, mechanisms to kill people both inside and outside these societies under certain circumstances. Even stateless societies generally at least reserve the power (not right, that isn’t a right, seriously.. that is power..) to kill people. The Moriori are an example of societies that are too benign to live in this cruel universe. Even the Moriori had the killing mechanisms. They just failed to use them in that fateful struggle..

  368. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    …if [mother nature] left it to the individual man consciously trying to earn female admiration we’d have gone extinct long ago.

    Then why aren’t we extinct? The very things women find most attractive about men are the qualities they admire in them. For women, admiration and attraction are quite intertwined. Men, meanwhile, are famously indifferent to a woman’s admirable qualities, at least where sex is concerned.

    …I have had enough conversations with men on this topic to know this is a fundamental divide psychologically among men – some men simply define their value based on female reactions, and some men find that sad.

    All men define their value based on their ability, or inability, to meet some tangible benchmarks, the ability to attract women being just one. Might as well say that comedians define their value based on audience reactions, or weightlifters on the reaction of their muscles to the weight.

    In other words, can you lift it? Can you get the laugh? Can you get the girl? If you can, you feel good; if you can’t, you feel bad. That’s men. To believe otherwise is to kid yourself.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  369. Wency says:
    @Rosie

    Would it really be that strange?

    Not my proudest or wisest moment, but I had a live-in girlfriend for a number of years when I figured I wasn’t ready to marry. The sex was good, she was low-maintenance, I was at a low point in my faith, and I hated dating and the prospect of trying to find someone new. But I figured out about a year in that I would never marry her. In addition to some other red flags, she didn’t want kids. I wasn’t sure if I wanted kids, but I was sure I wouldn’t marry a woman who didn’t want them.

    I’ve never seen the point to have government sanctioning for a relationship between two people, within a secular framework that assigns no moral condemnation to premarital sex. Why shouldn’t the relationship be at-will, like an employment contract? Apparently Europeans have figured this out, and they mostly don’t get married anymore unless they’re religious.

    She knew I had these views but hoped I’d change my mind. When I decided I did want kids, wanted to start going to church again, and was ready to get married, I dumped her. I actually did give her a few thousand dollars and some things to help her on her way, but I made a clean break very quickly, and she took it pretty hard.

    That said, if my wife and I couldn’t have kids, I’d stay married to her because I take that vow seriously. Also because I’m pretty sure she’s the best woman I’ve ever met.

    As for my divorced friend, he thought there would be kids. They were only married maybe 5 years. Only once the house was filled with animals did he realize the kids weren’t coming.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Rosie
  370. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    It’s not an excuse for ignoring anybody, it’s an acknowledgement of reality. The real “debate-stopper” is your question-dodging, and repeated attempts to control the terms under which this conversation operates; what’s really obnoxious is your insistence on speaking from atop your high horse.

    If I had been trying to ignore women or stop debate, why would I have spent so much time today debating a woman? And if I wanted an excuse to ignore someone, why not use one of the several you’ve already given me?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  371. AaronB says:
    @anon

    The qualities that make women sexually attracted to men are largely out side of his control and vice versa. It is bestowed by nature.

    The role of consciousness is minor, and limited to hygiene and pleasant manners.

    That is why we are not extinct.

    Some men act in the world out of a feeling of fullness – and some men out of a feeling of lack. You have described the mentality of the man operating out of a feeling of lack. The needy man.

    Some men write books because they are bursting with things to say, and some do it to earn admiration and acclaim.

    This was a distinction made by Goethe, btw, but I am sure others made it as well.

    I agree with you most men operate out of a psychology of lack – instead of gaining skills because they are necessary and useful, and doing things because they enjoy them, they try and satisfy benchmarks in order to impress others.

    This is an unfortunate disease of civilization, and while not curable, should be fought as much as possible.

    The important thing with women is to attract one so you can reproduce – in what way is one benefited from basing ones value on whether one can do so? That is merely neurotic, and rather sad. Especially since attraction is outside anyone’s conscious control for the most part.

    • Replies: @anon
  372. Talha says:
    @Wency

    Who is raising all these people that grow up and don’t want kids? It’s so common now. Are they from abusive or dysfunctional homes such that they don’t have a good view about family?

    My wife’s sister was with a guy for ten years before they got married – and he cheated on her and left within the first two years. But he was also against having children. He was an only child though and from a broken home, so maybe that’s why.

    It’s really weird but many of my daughter’s friends are like that, but most come from weird home situations.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Wency
    , @EastKekistani
  373. Mark G. says:
    @Michael S

    The expense, social stigma and illegality of prostitution do stop men from engaging in it. Also the possibility of a std is one reason men avoid it. A hooker might have sex with hundreds of men and those men are probably being promiscuous too. If you have sex with her, even with a condom, you are taking a risk. There is also a higher probability prostitutes are injecting drugs so they can pass on hepatitis or even AIDS to you. Part of the social stigma may be related to this fact that prostitutes and their johns spread disease. I never considered using a prostitute for your reasons and the health issues. I also enjoy the company of women. I like looking at them, talking to them and being with them. Prostitution would appeal to men who like sex but don’t like women. Men who like both sex and women would usually prefer a wife or girlfriend.

  374. Corvinus says:
    @Rosie

    “And why would a judge destroy a man in divorce court whom he believes did nothing wrong?”

    You ASSUME a judge would undertake this action.

    • Replies: @Anon
  375. Corvinus says:
    @EastKekistani

    “Humans are cruel. Animals are cruel. The universe is cruel.”

    Get over it.

    “Societies will of course pretend that moral laws actually hold universally because blind faith in such a pro-social myth does help making moral laws work.”

    It’s not blind faith, it’s called observing reality.

    “Fiction is written by humans to provide bogus examples to deceive other humans into thinking that moral laws actually work.”

    That would be the nihilism talking.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  376. L Woods says:
    @AaronB

    All men st any level can easily find women in their level.

    1955 called; it’d like its smp back.

  377. @Corvinus

    Get over it.

    Of course. Anyone who does not accept this fact is deluded.

    “Societies will of course pretend that moral laws actually hold universally because blind faith in such a pro-social myth does help making moral laws work.”

    It’s not blind faith, it’s called observing reality.

    Lol what? You know that moral laws don’t work at all without constant enforcement..which is why they had never worked at the top of any society. Once enforcement is paused for whatever reason they immediately fall apart. It’s really that simple.

    “Fiction is written by humans to provide bogus examples to deceive other humans into thinking that moral laws actually work.”

    That would be the nihilism talking.

    Nah. I got the idea from Robin Hanson.

  378. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus

    So what action were you describing?

    Please explain.

  379. @Rosie

    “I utterly reject the notion of the “shit-test” in its entirety”

    But how many women have you been out with? I think sometimes – often in fact – one has to listen to the voice of experience rather than the voice of conviction not backed by experience.

    I won’t go through the history, but when I first found red pill ideas (at an advanced age) it was interesting to backtrack through my various relationships (and marriage) using some of the concepts for illumination.

    That particular concept certainly gave a theoretical frame to what I’d already discovered from bitter experience, that when a woman wants to be confrontational in some way*, it is utterly pointless (no matter what a peace-loving soul you may be) to try and avoid that confrontation (one can waste a whole evening backpedalling), and far better (for both of us) to be up for it, to give at least as good as one gets, and to never back down. It sounds awful, but it seems to work, and it’s not me starting the confrontation.

    * I don’t mean “you crashed my car drunk/hit my father/slept with my friend” – all things which would justify anger/resentment. But sometimes women will pick a row about anything.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  380. notanon says:
    @iffen

    producing children in harsh environments is the primary reason for the evolution of pair bonding behavior.

    pair bonding behavior then exists as an independent trait.

  381. notanon says:
    @Feryl

    It seems to me that both drug abuse and crime are linked to poor impulse control and a lack of conscientiousness. In other words, the same kinds of assholes are likely to be crazy, drunk, high, violent, and so forth.

    i think that’s usually true but there is a special case at the moment where evil people got doctors to prescribe opiode pain killers on a mass scale to regular people which got them addicted and then once their prescription ran out they started spiraling down to feed the addiction.

    it may be that the ones who spiraled down only did so because they also had various flaws to start with but not flaws bad enough to have got themselves into the initial addiction without being led into it by our corrupt and evil elite.

    • Agree: Rosie
    • Replies: @Rosie
  382. notanon says:
    @EastKekistani

    it seems to me environments where:

    1) marriages are voluntary

    and

    2) successful monogamous marriages are optimal for child rearing

    that those environments would select over time for pair bonding behavior e.g. love.

    i agree for many environments and chunks of history this might not have been true.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  383. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    Still, men around here often claim that the courts are biased against men.

    i think part of this is particularly bad examples “go viral” in terms of what people remember.

    for example some years ago i read a story where a guy thought he had four children but they weren’t his and after the divorce the judge ordered him to pay alimony for the kids anyway.

    the thing about that is the judge no doubt was looking at it from the pov of it not being the kids’ fault but all the dude’s money going to alimony would greatly reduce his ability to find someone else and have children of his own – very evil.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  384. @notanon

    Right.

    Here is something funny. Evolution does not inherently select for traits beneficial to oneself. Instead it selects for traits that maximize the amount of surviving offspring.

    For example if some male praying mantises have a heritable trait that makes them less likely to mate and get cannibalized this trait is beneficial to these praying mantises and at the same time strongly selected against by evolution.

    • Replies: @notanon
  385. Rosie says:
    @Wency

    Would it really be that strange?

    Very much so, indeed. You deprived another man of her partnership during the time you were together. If men were allowed to do as you did without judgment, they could occupy women throughout their fertile years, then dump them and occupy another woman during her fertile years. That would be very bad for men who want a family, the only ones whose interests I particularly care about, being pro-White and not a degenerate.

    • Replies: @Wency
  386. Rosie says:
    @anon

    If I had been trying to ignore women or stop debate, why would I have spent so much time today debating a woman?

    Cool your jets. I was speaking un general terms, not specifically about you.

  387. notanon says:
    @iffen

    none have attempted to explain why

    if you assume evolution derived morality (i.e. maladaptive behavior comes to be considered morally “bad”) then

    1) “eggs are expensive, sperm is cheap” -> double standard over male/female promiscuity

    2) selling labor to support a family != selling sex for non reproductive purposes

    Q: is the attitude to females forced to sell sex to feed their family treated differently to women doing it to buy drugs?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  388. Rosie says:
    @notanon

    i think part of this is particularly bad examples “go viral” in terms of what people remember.

    Yes, I quite agree, and to be fair, it happens the other way around as well. A woman gives up her career to raise lots of children, then gets dumped in middle age with no ability to support herself.

    The thing is, there are no guarantees in life, and family formation cannot be made risk-free for either sex. We can’t control that. We can only make the best decisions we can, with the understanding that if we are unwilling to take risks, we may never have the life we want.

    • Replies: @notanon
  389. Rosie says:
    @notanon

    Q: is the attitude to females forced to sell sex to feed their family treated differently to women doing it to buy drugs?

    I would treat them the same, because drug addicts are usually without self-control over their substance abuse.

    But still, the point remains, women tend to assume that prostitutes are working under some sort of duress, economic or otherwise, and I think it is for this reason that we tend not to support harsh penalties against them, though we strongly oppose prostitution in principle.

    • Replies: @iffen
  390. Rosie says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    * I don’t mean “you crashed my car drunk/hit my father/slept with my friend” – all things which would justify anger/resentment. But sometimes women will pick a row about anything.

    Because small things that would be very easy to correct for man who gives a shit about his wife and her feelings build over time and cause what appears to be disproportionate rage.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  391. Rosie says:
    @notanon

    it may be that the ones who spiraled down only did so because they also had various flaws to start with but not flaws bad enough to have got themselves into the initial addiction without being led into it by our corrupt and evil elite.

    And obviously the lack if any reason to have self-control hasn’t helped matters. Why make an effort to avoid drugs when you have no opportunity and nothing to live for anyway. I believe that opiates were given to the WWC as a consolation prize to fend off social unrest in the face of globalization. Call me conspiratorial, but one must admit the timing is certainly suspicious.

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @EastKekistani
    , @iffen
  392. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    Who is raising all these people that grow up and don’t want kids? It’s so common now. Are they from abusive or dysfunctional homes such that they don’t have a good view about family?

    White guilt and self-hatred.

    • Disagree: iffen
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @notanon
  393. notanon says:
    @EastKekistani

    yes, eusocial behavior can be like that.

  394. Mikel says:
    @AaronB

    If you were against prostitution for family reasons, I’d be more sympathetic

    I was born in a country where prostitution is both legal and socially accepted. I have never seen much evidence that it harms families. Adultery does because you are more likely to leave your wife (or husband) and replace her by your new sexual partner. But an exceedingly small amount of men marry the prostitutes they hire.

    Nature just refused to make men monogamous. Monogamy is an efficient way of arranging reproduction, rearing of children and life in late age. But natural instincts fight against it very powerfully. Having the relieve-valve of prostitution not only allows for some mental and physical ease of natural tensions but, in fact, also discourages adultery. Adultery is much more emotionally expensive than prostitution. I get the impression that in countries where prostitution is banned men tend to engage in adultery more because that is the only way they have to follow the call of nature.

    Speaking of which, I think that the American habit (no other Anglo country goes that far) of enticing men to solicit prostitution through disguised female cops and then arresting and publicly shaming them is just perverse. That does lead to families being destroyed. And in some cases the guy may have never even engaged in the act if he hadn’t been provoked by the disguised female cop wearing provocative attire.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these female cops end up practicing prostitution themselves when they see what it all is really about. I know for a fact that in places where prostitution is legal you get all kinds of women practicing it. Likewise, all kinds of men solicit it, not just the creepy ones. To be sure, most prostitutes everywhere are low-class or immigrants from poor countries, which makes local women less inclined to practice it, but even so, some do.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @AaronB
  395. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    OK – but some of the kids that exhibit this are certainly not White. One of my daughter’s friends is a Latina and she thinks this way. Of course, she has a crappy mom and dad who do not care about her and lives with her grandma – so there’s that. But she’s not the only non-White kid with this outlook.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @RSDB
  396. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    drugging the masses is globalist policy

  397. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    it’s media driven

    although it does effect a certain kind of guilt-driven white people disproportionately.

  398. @Rosie

    The global elites want to destroy us all partly by tricking us into destroying each other, leaving only themselves and an African & Africanized underclass as the only humans on this planet.

  399. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    yes – part of the problem is people remember worst cases more than the average case.

  400. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    But still, the point remains, women tend to assume that prostitutes are working under some sort of duress, economic or otherwise, and I think it is for this reason that we tend not to support harsh penalties against them, though we strongly oppose prostitution in principle.

    Some men think this way as well. 🙂

  401. Pericles says:
    @iffen

    Endlessly complaining about the fact that there are more Negroes than one can shake a stick at is like complaining about the weather.

    Some of us grew up entirely without them. I saw my first negro in the flesh while at uni. (Disappointing, in case you wonder.)

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @EastKekistani
  402. iffen says:
    @Mikel

    the American habit (no other Anglo country goes that far) of enticing men to solicit prostitution through disguised female cops and then arresting and publicly shaming them is just perverse.

    That’s who we are. We take a so-called victimless crime and create a victim.

    Seriously, it addresses a popular notion of justice in that both participants are punished, not just the prostitute.

  403. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    It’s an interesting question. I imagine it’s partly a certain degree of alienation and anomie, partly a certain degree of lack of courage/fear of responsibility, and partly the broken-home/abuse stuff (especially abuse) you were talking about.

    But well-off people don’t come, generally, from broken homes, and they sometimes still feel this way.

    Also, I think, unchaste behaviour may tend to cloud the idea of procreation in people’s minds. This is not an issue I would like to talk about so I’ll leave it off there.

    I don’t think being an only child has much to do with it.

    Nor does an actual desire for celibacy, which is a good thing.

    I go to a number of poetry readings and a fair number of people from my generation tend more to talk about depression and discouragement than actually to read poetry as poetry. If people feel a deep detachment from the world and a simultaneous conception that the world is all there is, why should they want to introduce more people into it?

    And social attitudes probably have to do with it; while one of my great-grandmothers, for instance, had nine children, none of her children had any more than three of their own, and most had only one or two.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @iffen
    , @Talha
  404. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    Call me conspiratorial,

    Well, you do spend a fair amount of time at Unz, that’s bound to affect your thinking.

    Anyway, I’m sure that sooner or later, Big Pharma will be held responsible. Ha, ha, ha, God, I kill myself.

  405. Rosie says:
    @RSDB

    If people feel a deep detachment from the world and a simultaneous conception that the world is all there is, why should they want to introduce more people into it?

    Without religion, race, or some combination of both, there is nothing.

    • Replies: @iffen
  406. iffen says:
    @Pericles

    Some of us grew up entirely without them.

    I grew up in the hill country segregated South, so it was entirely without them and not really.

    I spoke to a Negro for the first time when I went to work at age 17. Two of the nicest people that I met at that time. Of course we were a selected group, black and white.

  407. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    I utterly reject the notion of the “shit-test” in its entirety

    shit-tests (more accurately testosterone tests) are definitely a thing.

    the way you can tell if it’s a t-test or they’re genuinely mad about something (or period-cranky) is if you put your foot down to a t-test they immediately want sex afterwards and if they’re genuinely mad they don’t.

    there’s nothing wrong with t-tests – they make perfect sense from an evolutionary pov – the problem is men being brain washed by the media into thinking that women want a “nice guy” (aka a wimp) which they do some of the time – but other times they want something very different.

    The stereotype is that only men suffer from a mid-life crisis, but I’m sure it happens to women, too.

    a lot of women have a mid-life crisis at 30, cheat but don’t get caught while a lot of men have a crisis at 40, cheat and get caught.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    , @Rosie
  408. Pericles says:
    @Rosie

    Breaking up due to barrenness or sterility is often considered if not great, excusable. For example, I have an acquaintance who got divorced. After the divorce, his ex-wife remarried and got pregnant while he and his new wife adopted a girl. Ten years of trying might be considered excessive though.

  409. Pericles says:
    @Wency

    I would assume that she wanted to get pregnant but for whatever reason couldn’t. In her thirties perhaps, assembling numerous fur babies?

    • Replies: @Wency
  410. iffen says:
    @RSDB

    It’s in the genes.

    Breeders gonna breed.

    (Or out of the jeans, as the case may be.)

  411. RSDB says:
    @notanon

    Please explain?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student%27s_t-test

    EDIT: Oh, I see, sorry. But I’ll leave this comment up because using “t-test” is pretty confusing.

    • Replies: @notanon
  412. Wency says:
    @anon

    If our subconscious was that efficient at causing us to pursue evolutionary incentives, then whatever revulsion women feel towards sexbots they would feel 100x towards feminism and every other anti-natal notion to which they’ve ever been exposed.

    • Replies: @anon
  413. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    Without religion, race, or some combination of both, there is nothing.

    What about thinking? Can ‘t we get that in there somewhere?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  414. Rosie says:
    @notanon

    the way you can tell if it’s a t-test or they’re genuinely mad about something (or period-cranky) is if you put your foot down to a t-test they immediately want sex afterwards and if they’re genuinely mad they don’t.

    ROFL. As I understand it, you are happily married and probably don’t need my advice, but for any others who might be interested:

    Instead of trying to figure out if your woman is really mad or not, just listen to what she says and evaluate it in it’s merits. If you do that, you can’t go wrong.

    Suppose I bitch my husband out for forgetting to clean out his junk drawer… again.

    Now, does it really matter whether I’m genuinely mad or not? Suppose I’m not genuinely mad. I’m just mouthing off because I’m on my period or something (never happens). H still either needs to clean out his junk drawer or not. Whether I’m really mad about it or not doesn’t matter. I need to be able to put unidentified objects someplace when I’m picking up after H, if he doesn’t want them thrown away. Eventually, if H doesn’t clean out the drawer, it will be too full to put anything else into.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @AaronB
    , @notanon
    , @Talha
    , @anon
  415. Rosie says:
    @iffen

    What about thinking? Can ‘t we get that in there somewhere?

    Thinking is wonderful, but one must have something interesting to think about, such as race (what is good for us?), religion (broadly defined), and ____________.

    Fill in the blank. Nothing occurs to me but art, itself related to the other two.

    I believe it was Kierkegaard who spoke of the three value systems. (It’s been awhile.)

    Ethics
    God
    Beauty

    Do I have that right?

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @iffen
  416. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    I’m just mouthing off because I’m on my period or something (never happens).

    ROFLMAO

    This is another example of where you refuse to understand the differences between men and women. “Cleaning out” the junk drawer negates the whole idea of having a junk drawer.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @Rosie
  417. Wency says:
    @Talha

    That girlfriend was from a not-quite-broken but still rather unhealthy home. I’d say it was a combination of the upbringing and also some colonization by feminist ideas. The sad thing in her case is that she was very nurturing and might have derived great joy from motherhood, except for the mind-virus that got into her head. She liked kids but hated every job she ever worked and could never settle on a career, life goals, or purpose of any kind. But she fully believed that being a stay-at-home mom was the worst fate that could ever befall a woman.

    The much more common phenomenon though is that people just don’t make marriage and children a priority and then sometime in their 30s become mostly resigned to never being married, or at least not having kids when they finally do. But they probably would have had children if they’d gotten married in their 20s.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    , @Talha
  418. Rosie says:
    @iffen

    This is another example of where you refuse to understand the differences between men and women. “Cleaning out” the junk drawer negates the whole idea of having a junk drawer.

    And when it’s full and I can’t close it anymore? Am I supposed to clear out my kitchen utensils and give him another drawer?

    • Replies: @iffen
  419. notanon says:
    @RSDB

    yeah, t-test = shit-test.

    typing “shit” bugs me.

  420. AaronB says:
    @Rosie

    I actually couldn’t stop laughing at that paragraph either. I cannot understand how these people can be so absurd.

  421. RSDB says:
    @Rosie

    Isn’t the aesthete fundamentally a worse man than the others? Johannes the Seducer is a repulsive character, for instance. But the idea, perhaps, (I’m never on entirely sure ground with Kierkegaard) is that the aesthetic must be lifted up into the life of the spirit to produce that faith which is better than relatively lifeless merely ethical.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  422. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    you’re wrong on this.

    for any younger dudes
    – sometimes they’re genuinely mad
    – sometimes they’re period-cranky
    – sometimes it’s a testosterone test

    and failing a testosterone test cos you’re trying to be a “nice guy” -> they lose respect.

    the reason is simple “eggs are expensive, sperm is cheap” ergo it’s the man’s job to protect from danger while they take the kids to safety ergo they want you to have more testosterone than them.

    when they’re fantasising about Rhett Butler they’re not fantasising about how sensitive he is.

    testosterone-testing is evolved behavior.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @notanon
  423. Rosie says:
    @RSDB

    Isn’t the aesthete fundamentally a worse man than the others?

    If I recall correctly, the order of the value systems is as follows, from highest to lowest:

    Religious
    Ethical
    Aesthetic

    (Again, it’s been awhile.)

  424. AaronB says:
    @Mikel

    I also don’t think it necessarily harms families – really depends on the circumstances.

    I just meant that at least that would be a better argument than that it is shameful because it means a man can’t get a woman. That’s just silly Anglo sphere thinking.

    If you wanna oppose prostitution, come up with some good reasons, like it harms society, not childish pride issues like that.

  425. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    Do I have that right?

    I confess to not being up on my Kierkegaard. (Number 147 in my reading queue.)

    My point is that race and religion don’t require a lot of thought. Well, that’s not right at all. What I mean is that thinking can get one past the religious and racial divisions to see that we have something in common with the “other.”

    We have a complex society. Some people (some pretty smart people) think that we are going to collapse because we can no longer deal with the complexity. Some other people (pretty smart in their own right) think that making complex societies work is the only solution.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  426. Rosie says:
    @notanon

    you’re wrong on this.

    I’ll admit it’s theoretically possible, though it doesn’t happen very often;)

    and failing a testosterone test cos you’re trying to be a “nice guy” -> they lose respect.

    If I understand correctly, what you are saying here is that a man should go out of his way to be unresponsive and unreasonable, even if his wife has a point. Forgive me, but this is goito boil over into resentment and a distinct feeling of being unloved.

    testosterone-testing is evolved behavior.

    Why then do women have such an obsession with musicians, sages, artists, etc.? I don’t accept the notion that women value fighting ability above all else.

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @RSDB
    , @notanon
    , @anon
  427. Wency says:
    @Rosie

    Happens all the time though. It’s not good, but it’s not strange. Maybe in a healthy society it would be strange, but that’s not the society we’re living in.

    And I never felt particularly judged for it. Funny enough, the only person who gave me any pushback was my mother. “That girl loves you. If you’re not going to marry her, you should break up with her while she’s still young and pretty enough to find a man.”

    While I thought the sentiment was apt, it was very not-in-keeping with the spirit of this age. I’ve never known a millennial to speak such words.

  428. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    And when it’s full and I can’t close it anymore?

    The next time he needs something he won’t have to go to the trouble of opening the drawer.

    my kitchen utensils

    What’s mine is mine and what’s his is mine.

    • LOL: Rosie
  429. @Rosie

    I didn’t say wife – my worst experience of this was with my first real love and serious girlfriend. Once I’d worked out the way to respond (post-split, when I swore I’d never be treated like that again) things went swimmingly going forwards.

    And some girls didn’t do it at all, I don’t consider the “where’s this relationship going” moment to be a shit test.

    “all things that would be very easy to correct for man who gives a shit about his wife and her feelings”

    No, it could be anything. It was about wanting to fight – and if I responded the wrong way (i.e. not wanting to fight) it would just escalate. You’ve not been there – and been there on multiple occasions with more than one woman.

    But when I worked out the right way to respond (i.e. prepared and eager to fight), things got much better. It was almost as if, once she (generic ‘she’) knew how I’d react, she didn’t need to goad* me.

    * Kipling summed it up as “scientific vivisection of one nerve till it is raw …” in his poem The Female Of The Species.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  430. Rosie says:
    @iffen

    What I mean is that thinking can get one past the religious and racial divisions to see that we have something in common with the “other.”

    We have all sorts of things in common with the other, but I don’t see racial and religious identity as problems we need to “get past.” We do need to think carefully about our moral duties to out groups, though.

  431. Wency says:
    @Pericles

    I’m pretty sure neither of them was sterile. I think it’s just delayed adolescence; I would guess she never felt ready and wasn’t ready to fully grow up. Evidenced by her getting into drinking behavior in her mid-30s that seemed stupid and immature to me by my mid-20s.

  432. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    a man should go out of his way to be unresponsive and unreasonable, even if his wife has a point

    not when she has a point – only when it’s a testosterone test.

    Why then do women have such an obsession with musicians, sages, artists, etc.? I don’t accept the notion that women value fighting ability above all else.

    sensitive sometimes, rhett butler other times

  433. Rosie says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    But when I worked out the right way to respond (i.e. prepared and eager to fight), things got much better. It was almost as if, once she (generic ‘she’) knew how I’d react, she didn’t need to goad me.

    Perhaps she gave up trying to get you to consider her point of view? That might work, but then again it might backfire.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  434. RSDB says:
    @Rosie

    Do women have an obsession with sages anywhere outside Hindu mythology?

    Perhaps I’m unduly influenced by both Christian and Buddhist religious generally being celibate; violently so, in the case of St. Thomas Aquinas.

    Musicians and artists I’ve known can be … other than sensitive. But you’re right that some of those who are “nice guys” still get pleny of attention. Dancers too, and performers in general.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Rosie
  435. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    Why then do women have such an obsession with musicians, sages, artists, etc.? I don’t accept the notion that women value fighting ability above all else.

    put another way…

    for most of history being attracted to “toxic masculinity” was probably adaptive if a woman wanted her sons to survive but as we’ve civilized over time the balance between genes for wanting “sensitive” or “toxic” has probably shifted but most women still hanker for a bit of toxic now and then because those primitive genes are still there lurking.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @EastKekistani
  436. Rosie says:
    @notanon

    for most of history being attracted to “toxic masculinity” was probably adaptive if a woman wanted her sons to survive but as we’ve civilized over time the balance between genes for wanting “sensitive” or “toxic” has probably shifted but most women still hanker for a bit of toxic now and then because those primitive genes are still there lurking.

    I suppose, but I very much doubt the balance is the same for all women. Women with a preference for nice guys would have enjoyed a huge survival advantage as a result of the domestication of dogs, to be sure.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @notanon
  437. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    clean out his junk drawer… again

    As iffen mentioned, this doesn’t make sense, but I get your drift.

    just listen to what she says and evaluate it in it’s merits

    I’m no expert, I’ve only been with one woman in my life, but that approach seems to work for me. If my wife is complaining about something that has merit, I will own it and admit fault. If it doesn’t, I stand my ground and she usually apologizes some time after the fact.

    Seems to work, at least for me.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Rosie
  438. iffen says:
    @RSDB

    violently so, in the case of St. Thomas Aquinas.

    I like your way with words. I might try to emulate.

  439. Rosie says:
    @RSDB

    Do women have an obsession with sages anywhere outside Hindu mythology?

    I believe so. Don’t women often fall in love with their therapists (a sort of modern sage)? Cult leaders usually wind up having sex with every woman in the group. At the risk of offending, I’ve always thought there was an erotic note to this Bible story:

    https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/people/main-articles/mary-and-martha

    I’m sure, had he been inclined, Jesus could have certainly had his way with Mary, even more so than Martha.

  440. iffen says:
    @Talha

    If my wife is complaining about something that has merit

    I’m the decider.

    • Replies: @Talha
  441. @Wency

    “and then sometime in their 30s become mostly resigned to never being married, or at least not having kids when they finally do”

    There’s now an organisation for women (many of whom have carouseled their way through their 20s and missed the cut, though there are also tragic medical cases) who would like to have been mothers but aren’t. Some real pain in the comments.

    https://gateway-women.com/

    • Replies: @Talha
  442. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    Women with a preference for nice guys would have enjoyed a huge survival advantage as a result of the domestication of dogs, to be sure.

    ??

    • Replies: @Rosie
  443. Talha says:
    @Wency

    Lots to agree with here.

    colonization by feminist ideas

    I’ve noticed in my house, it requires much more attention to my daughter to talk her out of or mitigate modernist ideas. The boys don’t seem to take much at all.

    But she fully believed that being a stay-at-home mom was the worst fate that could ever befall a woman.

    And this to me is the craziest thing of all. I’ve mentioned in other threads how the loss of the sacred position of motherhood has been lost in all this argumentation about men/women, hoes/PUAs, feminism/machoness, etc.

    But they probably would have had children if they’d gotten married in their 20s.

    Good point – there is the reality of the biological clock.

    Peace.

    • Agree: Wency
    • Replies: @iffen
    , @EastKekistani
  444. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    If my wife is complaining about something that has merit, I will own it and admit fault. If it doesn’t, I stand my ground and she usually apologizes some time after the fact.

    Quite right. I don’t think you can go wrong being reasonable and showing self-respect at the same time. Spouses need to be gracious and always ready to apologize and accept the other’s apology.

    • Agree: Talha
  445. Talha says:
    @iffen

    Well someone has to be. It’s your opinion against hers. You either get rolled over every time she thinks she has the case in the argument or you stand your ground. Usually, you can tell the merit in how the case is being argued. Bill Burr had something to say on it:

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  446. iffen says:
    @Talha

    I’ve noticed in my house, it requires much more attention to my daughter to talk her out of or mitigate modernist ideas. The boys don’t seem to take much at all.

    Verbal difference thingy.

  447. Rosie says:
    @iffen

    Don’t you think so? Caring gentlemen would be more likely, it seems, to form an advantageous partnership with a dog, who can smell, hear, bark, and fight.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @anon
  448. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    I very much doubt the balance is the same for all women

    yes balanced selection, bell curves ftw

    i imagine the most k-selected women would be on the wanting more sensitive end of the spectrum and the more r-selected women would be on the wanting more toxic end of the spectrum but in my experience even the most sensitive-wanting women want some rhett butler once in a while.

  449. @Talha

    And this to me is the craziest thing of all. I’ve mentioned in other threads how the loss of the sacred position of motherhood has been lost in all this argumentation about men/women, hoes/PUAs, feminism/machoness, etc.

    From an individualistic point of view this isn’t crazy at all. When children are no longer profitable to produce they are no longer raised a lot more than pets.

    • Replies: @Wency
  450. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    Well someone has to be. It’s your opinion against hers. You either get rolled over every time she thinks she has the case in the argument or you stand your ground. Usually, you can tell the merit in how the case is being argued.

    We don’t expect to bet our way all the time. To be heard is enough.

    • Replies: @Talha
  451. @notanon

    for most of history being attracted to “toxic masculinity” was probably adaptive if a woman wanted her sons to survive but as we’ve civilized over time the balance between genes for wanting “sensitive” or “toxic” has probably shifted but most women still hanker for a bit of toxic now and then because those primitive genes are still there lurking.

    Toxic masculinity is ugly. However it is what the original definition of masculinity is and it is actually useful. A beta male is by definition a dude who isn’t violent and intimidating. Such a person obviously can not protect himself, let alone a wife for the ability to harm and the ability to protect are the same thing.

    • Replies: @notanon
  452. @Pericles

    I grew up without them. Hence I know very well what a normal life is like.

  453. @Rosie

    “to consider her point of view”

    There wasn’t one. It was never about an issue, that can be talked through – that’s the last thing she’d want – it was about having a fight.

    I can see you have a point of view though, I see what it is, and nothing’s going to alter that, least of all some man describing his lived experience.

    (Threads about sex and relationships tend to go on forever, because we’re all experts …)

    • Replies: @Rosie
  454. @Talha

    Who is raising all these people that grow up and don’t want kids? It’s so common now. Are they from abusive or dysfunctional homes such that they don’t have a good view about family?

    Was Sir Issac Newton a broken and dysfunctional person? No? I think when a person is sufficiently intellectual he/she is no longer suited to family life for the latter will simply be an obstacle on his/her path of intellectualism.

    I think the idea of celibate monks and nuns isn’t bad. The most intellectual people on this planet should not be forced to deal with family life. The most moral people on this planet should simply be protected from the society because the universe itself is amoral which causes almost everything in it to be sufficiently amoral to be extremely toxic to these guys.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Rosie
    , @Talha
  455. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    Caring gentlemen would be more likely, it seems, to form an advantageous partnership with a dog,

    Dogs are tools, so the person who knows how to effectively use the tools would be “desirable.”

    • Replies: @Rosie
  456. notanon says:
    @EastKekistani

    Such a person obviously can not protect himself, let alone a wife for the ability to harm and the ability to protect are the same thing.

    yes

  457. iffen says:
    @EastKekistani

    Was Sir Issac Newton a broken and dysfunctional person? No? I think when a person is sufficiently intellectual he/she is no longer suited to family life.

    I suppose that you think that all “artistes” have to be alcoholics, drug addicts or mentally ill.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  458. @iffen

    I suppose that you think that all “artistes” have to be alcoholics, drug addicts or mentally ill.

    Nope. Why?

    • Replies: @iffen
  459. Rosie says:
    @iffen

    Dogs are tools, so the person who knows how to effectively use the tools would be “desirable.”

    Dogs aren’t much use without the man-dog bond, which I’m sure you’ve noticed, is among the strongest in nature. A dog is not going to defend you to the death without an emotional bond, and to hunt together, man and dog must be able to communicate and empathize one with the other.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  460. @Rosie

    Speaking of animals I bet that dog people are overrepresented on this board while cat people are underrepresented. Am I right?

    Every single STEM nerd-heavy place I have ever been in including soc rightist ones is full of cat people. Every single far-rightist place I have been in other than places filled with STEM nerds is full of dog people.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Wency
  461. Rosie says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    least of all some man describing his lived experience.

    I have lived experience of my own, you know.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  462. Rosie says:
    @EastKekistani

    So far as I know, only Anatoly Karlin, Toronto Russian (?), and I are outspoken cat-lovers. Mr. Karlin and myself also being known to be very pro-dog as well.

    Perhaps our gracious host, Mr. Epigon, will weigh in on this age-old debate?

  463. Talha says:
    @RSDB

    If people feel a deep detachment from the world and a simultaneous conception that the world is all there is, why should they want to introduce more people into it?

    Good point.

    It is interesting, my teachers have always taught of children being like a harvest. The spiritual rewards of the generations that proceed from you and do righteous deeds (assuming you have taught them to be such) and praying for you, giving charity, etc. keeps on accruing to the increasing balance in your favor on the Day of Judgment.

    And social attitudes probably have to do with it

    Yup. It is really amazing that this is such a fundamental part of biological reality – wanting to have children and propagate one’s genes that it is shocking that there is even a discussion about it or people have to be convinced.

    I’m guessing part of it also has to do with the rising “me, me, me” attitude because having children (and even being able to hold down a marriage) necessitate the ability for the person to look beyond themselves and sacrifice for the sake of someone else.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @iffen
  464. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    Yeah – I agree. Sometimes I’m at the receiving end of a yelling-fest which comes out of nowhere, but if I manage things right, she is eventually crying in my arms and I realize, something/someone else was really the problem and she was carrying an emotional hammer inside her…and I just happened to be the only nail around.

    One has to be roll with that in a marriage too.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
  465. @Talha

    Yup. It is really amazing that this is such a fundamental part of biological reality – wanting to have children and propagate one’s genes that it is shocking that there is even a discussion about it or people have to be convinced.

    It’s not really amazing. Instead this is just how evolution selects for organisms that sacrifice their own interests for the sake of reproduction.

    I’m sure that if praying mantises had human-level intelligence the few male praying mantises that did not want to be cannibalized would have been considered anti-social, loser and whatever.

    • Replies: @Talha
  466. iffen says:
    @EastKekistani

    Nope. Why?

    Because it would fit with your idea that genius (Newton) shouldn’t be burdened with sharing ordinary human characteristics and manners. Artistes and visionaries need some sort of flaw that separates them from ordinary people.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  467. @iffen

    Because it would fit with your idea that genius (Newton) shouldn’t be burdened with sharing ordinary human characteristics and manners.

    Well here we are talking about what ought to happen as opposed to what happens. The main problem with intellectuals having to have families is that it is very likely that the household will be full of arguments and low-quality thoughts that are harmful to the intellectual output of the intellectuals.

    Artistes and visionaries need some sort of flaw that separates them from ordinary people.

    It does not have to be a flaw. I’m strongly against drugs and drunkenness because they are harmful to one’s body and because they hamper one’s ability to think clearly. Artists and visionaries do not have to be separated from ordinary people by having flaws.

    • Replies: @iffen
  468. Rosie says:
    @EastKekistani

    I think the idea of celibate monks and nuns isn’t bad. The most intellectual people on this planet should not be forced to deal with family life.

    I’m not necessarily opposed, but I have always thought that true holiness requires a challenge. It’s easy to be mindful and virtuous in a monastery. In a house full of screaming kids, not so much.

  469. Talha says:
    @EastKekistani

    Was Sir Issac Newton a broken and dysfunctional person?

    Michael Hart wrote a book about the 100 most influential human beings to have ever lived on the planet; Newton was number 2 on the list.

    Now, Newton is an outlier – you cannot have a society benefit from outliers, but you cannot run a society based on “norms” defined by outliers. And it is not just in that field of human endeavor, but others also. Khalid Ibn Walid (ra) came up in the discussion earlier, but he is also an outlier:
    “When I am in the battlefield, I love it more than my wedding night with the most beautiful of women.” – Khalid ibn Walid

    The most intellectual people on this planet should not be forced to deal with family life.

    Who said anything about forcing? One of the medieval scholars I point out often is Imam Nawawi (ra) – he never married. He had no time for it, he knew all the rules of marriage and knew he would not be able to fulfill the rights of his wife, so he gave up marriage altogether. It is reported that if he ever had anyone over for dinner or something, in between eating and conversation with his guest, he would be getting his pens and writing materials ready…he is an outlier.

    Peace.

  470. iffen says:
    @Talha

    God forbid, and save us from tragedy, but I can see a scenario where you and Rosie unite and move to The Little House on the Prairie and live HEA. If we want to do macabre, y’all will have to shoot and kill all the Waltons before you go.

    • Replies: @Talha
  471. Talha says:
    @EastKekistani

    At this level of adoption or ubiquity in society? That is what is shocking.

    But, as I have stated before; the Great Human Culling is at hand.

    sacrifice their own interests for the sake of reproduction

    What is interesting here is that, if you look at the totality of my comment, you’ll see the sacrifice is not simply against self-interests. Someone like me has full conviction that, if I raise them right and they go on to raise their succeeding generations right, that is ultimately in my self interest in the long run on the spiritual plane. In fact, not having kids would deprive me of benefiting from them and their actions after I pass away. Just as I pray and give charity on behalf of my deceased ancestors. In this case, children are really a very long-term investment.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  472. iffen says:
    @EastKekistani

    low-quality thoughts that are harmful to the intellectual output of the intellectuals.

    It’s not much of an intellectual that can’t screen, balance and filter.

    What’s the point of your high powered intellectuals if people (families) are not the beneficiaries?

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  473. @iffen

    What’s the point of your high powered intellectuals if people (families) are not the beneficiaries?

    What’s the point of intellectualism? Intellectualism is something that tends to edify and benefit the entire society and even the entire species (and maybe multiple species/AI too) instead of something that can give anyone a lot of personal gain.

    Of course unless the intellectual is in a monastery/nunnery or academia he/she should still feed himself/herself. However that’s an issue separate from his/her intellectualism.

    • Replies: @iffen
  474. @Talha

    At this level of adoption or ubiquity in society? That is what is shocking.

    But, as I have stated before; the Great Human Culling is at hand.

    Nature has always been culling humans, non-human animals, plants, fungi….. The death rates used to be much higher. It’s really weird..So many people don’t think a lot of dead people from war, starvation or diseases count as human culling. On the other hand when we finally manage to shut down Malthusianism..there are less dead people..there is actually Great Human Culling because there are fewer kids.

    What is interesting here is that, if you look at the totality of my comment, you’ll see the sacrifice is not simply against self-interests. Someone like me has full conviction that, if I raise them right and they go on to raise their succeeding generations right, that is ultimately in my self interest in the long run on the spiritual plane. In fact, not having kids would deprive me of benefiting from them and their actions after I pass away. Just as I pray and give charity on behalf of my deceased ancestors. In this case, children are really a very long-term investment.

    Well, this is again a religion-dependent statement. Assume that your sect of Islam is factually accurate then you are right. Assume that the universe is atheistic or deistic (i.e. with one or more deity/deities that do not interact with humanity) then I’m right.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Talha
  475. iffen says:
    @EastKekistani

    What’s the point of intellectualism? Intellectualism is something that tends to edify and benefit the entire society and even the entire species (and maybe multiple species/AI too) …

    Really?

    Was Freud an intellectual?

    If so, did his work benefit society?

    Was Marx an intellectual?

    If so, did his work …

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  476. @iffen

    Was Freud an intellectual?

    If so, did his work benefit society?

    Not sure. His psychoanalysis does not seem to be science if we use Karl Popper’s definition since it isn’t falsifiable.

    Whether you think his work benefit society really strongly depends on your values.

    Was Marx an intellectual?

    If so, did his work …

    Well, Commies suck. To me Marx’s stuff should be allowed to exist on the grounds of free speech even though it sure as hell shouldn’t be believed.

    The Marxist theory on history has already been falsified. So it is basically a factually inaccurate theory not very different from aether theories that doesn’t even approximate reality well. That is, it is garbage.

    There will always be nonsense produced by intellectuals but on average intellectuals benefit the world.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @iffen
  477. iffen says:
    @EastKekistani

    Assume that the universe is atheistic

    I believe this to be correct. How does this make you “right”?

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  478. @iffen

    I believe this to be correct. How does this make you “right”?

    Sure. Please explain to me what “evolutionary interests” actually are. I have a litmus test for you:

    If there is a technology that kills you and creates 2 clones of you are you going to use it?

    • Replies: @iffen
  479. iffen says:
    @EastKekistani

    Intellectualism is something that tends to edify and benefit the entire society and even the entire species (and maybe multiple species/AI too) …

    Do you want to re-work this?

  480. Talha says:
    @EastKekistani

    Nature has always been culling humans

    Good point; the Great Voluntary Human Culling is at hand!

    Well, this is again a religion-dependent statement.

    To a degree. It is indeed Pascal’s Wager…I’m just putting my money where my mouth is.

    But, whether someone with my beliefs is correct in an ontological assessment, it makes no difference in respect to results in the world. If my children adopt and keep upon my belief, they will also propagate their genes, and so on down the line.

    There is a reason why the Muslim world is still quite fecund and it has to do with these kinds of beliefs and acting upon them.

    then I’m right.

    Sure, but you still lose.

    Peace.

  481. iffen says:
    @EastKekistani

    If there is a technology that kills you and creates 2 clones of you are you going to use it?

    I speak on behalf of my wife of 46 years and say, “Hell no”!

    Clones, with regard to living organisms, are a misnomer. Two organisms cannot be “the same.”

    I think that I see your point, but evolution has been getting by without my conscious imput for quite a while. Which doesn’t mean that I don’t think that I could give it a few pointers if it would listen to me.

  482. iffen says:
    @EastKekistani

    but on average intellectuals benefit the world.

    Duh

  483. Talha says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Some real pain in the comments.

    Yeah – ouch. I feel bad for those women and it’s only going to get worse with age…

    Peace.

  484. Mikel says:
    @Rosie

    We don’t get the idea of casual sex for its own sake. It literally doesn’t compute.

    Reading your comments is interesting and useful for me as a man in order to better understand the always intriguing mind of women. But I’m not that young anymore and a sweeping statement like this clearly reveals that your opinions are not very representative of women in general or probably even of average American women.

    If not from Utah, as someone suggested above, you must be from some similar place where sexual behavior is strongly influenced by religious views.

    In my personal experience with women (admittedly mostly Europeans), what you say is plainly not true. In fact, my very wife initially just found me fit for a one-night stand. But I found her much more valuable than that and it took me a big effort and a rather long time to convince her to move in with me and get more serious. Last month we celebrated the 18th anniversary of our wedding.

    Nature quite clearly decided to make sex a pleasurable activity for both men and women. Probably certain aspects of sex are more intense for guys but I wouldn’t even say that we need sex more than women. A female psychologist once told me that the opposite is true. So saying that women are unable to conceive sex as something worth of being enjoyed by its own sake is not credible. You are just explaining how women in your particular demographic group view sexual relations. That limited information is valuable but only if you make it clear that you are just speaking for that group.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @iffen
  485. Rosie says:
    @Mikel

    Thank you so much for your kind words. As for this…

    That limited information is valuable but only if you make it clear that you are just speaking for that group.

    It may be that your wife is more of an outlier than I, or perhaps neither of us are.

    I think it is at least fair to say that many, many women are nearly asexual. Consider …

    Only 48% of women want regular sex after four years of marriage.

    https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/relationships/g3811/shocking-statistics-married-sex/

    Presumably, some of those women are unsatisfied with their marriage, but probably not most.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Mikel
  486. iffen says:
    @Mikel

    it took me a big effort and a rather long time to convince her to move in with me and get more serious. Last month we celebrated the 18th anniversary of our wedding.

    God-damnit! I do love a happy ending.

    • Agree: Talha
  487. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    Only 48% of women want regular sex after four years of marriage.

    Rosie, there’s more to marriage than sex and there’s more to sex than marriage.

  488. Mikel says:
    @Rosie

    It may be that your wife is more of an outlier than I, or perhaps neither of us are.

    Well, I put my wife as an example of your assertion not being quite true but I had plenty of relationships before meeting her and they all happened to be outliers if your position is the norm.

    As it happens, I’ve been living in Utah of all places for four years now so I’m not very sure what the attitude of more representative American women towards sex is. But my experience in several European countries (not only restricted to my own relationships) is that very few women nowadays are unwilling to have casual sex. I get the impression that women in New York, Florida or California are quite similar to Europeans in this respect.

    Also, the statistics in that magazine, if true, don’t imply that so many women are nearly asexual. Men also get bored after some years of marriage. A more relevant metric would be how many women would like to continue having sexual experiences (regardless of who their partner would be) or how often they masturbate.

    BTW, the fact that magazines for women are so full of articles about sex lends credence to my female psychologist friend’s claim that sex is in some ways more important for women than for men.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Rosie
  489. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    Again, you’ve missed the point. While a great many men are indeed interesting in impressing others, that’s an adjunct of the universal. What’s universal is trying to meet the objective benchmark, and feeling bad about yourself if you don’t – but the only person who needs to know is you.

    (Of course, this can become confused where the only way to tell if you’ve met the benchmark is by judging other people’s reactions. Ability to attract a woman, for instance, is entirely theoretical until you actually attract a woman – it’s contingent on her reaction. A comedian would be another example.)

    Men – women too – need to feel that they measure up to something. This is not seeking acclaim, but rather seeking to define oneself. Without a yardstick, you wouldn’t even exist. “Needy” it may be, but that doesn’t matter. Neediness ends with death. A living man will never have a feeling of fullness for very long. It’s in his nature to get hungry again.

  490. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mikel

    BTW, the fact that magazines for women are so full of articles about sex lends credence to

    women having a very different approach to sexual matters than men. When was the last time you read an article about sex?

    …I think I’ll drop this topic now, while I still can.

  491. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wency

    I don’t know, doesn’t feminism enable single motherhood, with government as the ersatz provider male? That’s not precisely anti-natal.

    Plus, there are a great many complicating/confounding factors. Sex bots are revolting to most men, as well, so a big part of it must be something other than sexual economics; feminism is carefully brainwashed into suggestible young people; people are suggestible generally; women are lied to about how anti-natal these various notions are (i.e., reading all the time about rich celebrities getting IVF treatments and having children in their 40’s); etc.

    Still and all, food for thought and another excellent point.

  492. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Instead of trying to figure out if your woman is really mad or not, just listen to what she says and evaluate it in it’s merits.

    I lol’d.

    I would advise against this for most men with most of what most women say, because it probably has no merit.

    And might I propose a junk cardboard box as an annex to the junk drawer?

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @Rosie
  493. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Why then do women have such an obsession with musicians, sages, artists, etc.? I don’t accept the notion that women value fighting ability above all else.

    Fighting ability is just one aspect of protecting ability. We might also consider the ability to lead other men, to persuade or inspire them to fight on your behalf, the ability to marshal their resources, and above all the confidence not to shrink from the challenge.

    A man technically able to defeat someone in a fight is of no use if he’s too afraid to fight, whereas a brave man who isn’t much good at fighting might nonetheless still win. Across many fights, over many years, we should see that bravery is selected for more than martial skill. That’s why women fantasise about rockstars playing before huge audiences more than rockstars toiling in the studio by themselves.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  494. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    As knowledgeable about dogs as everything else, I see :p

  495. AaronB says:

    I cannot help you my friend. You seem determined to make women’s reactions a measure of your worth.

    Good luck.

  496. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:

    Thank you. Enjoy your lotus.

  497. Rosie says:
    @anon

    That’s why women fantasise about rockstars playing before huge audiences more than rockstars toiling in the studio by themselves.

    Nope. Musicians are hot even when poor and unknown.

    • Replies: @Talha
  498. Rosie says:
    @anon

    I would advise against this for most men with most of what most women say, because it probably has no merit.

    No telling how many divorces are the result of this very shitty attitude. GFY.

  499. Rosie says:
    @Mikel

    But my experience in several European countries (not only restricted to my own relationships) is that very few women nowadays are unwilling to have casual sex.

    Whether they like to do it and whether they will do it are separate questions. Women nowadays feel they have little choice as most men simply are not willing to wait around.

    Also, the statistics in that magazine, if true, don’t imply that so many women are nearly asexual. Men also get bored after some years of marriage. A more relevant metric would be how many women would like to continue having sexual experiences (regardless of who their partner would be) or how often they masturbate.

    Disagree. Men may get bored, but they don’t stop wanting sex altogether like women do.

    • Replies: @Mikel
  500. Wency says:
    @EastKekistani

    There was a post maybe a month ago about pets. I thought the board was pretty pro-dog overall (I’m strongly in this camp), and some people who liked both dogs and cats. I don’t remember anyone volunteering that they were cat-only. There were also some people who just seemed anti-pet in general.

    I think the revulsion towards pets as child-substitutes is common in these circles, whether you like pets or not. I love my dog but she’s not my daughter.

    • Agree: iffen, Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @Mikel
  501. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    Musicians are hot even when poor and unknown.

    I can already see an upcoming article in some science journal:

    New DNA Research Suggests Most of Europe’s Nobility Trace Their Lineage to a Handful of Traveling Medieval Bards

    Peace.

    • LOL: AaronB, Rosie
    • Replies: @Rosie
  502. @Wency

    Well, I expected that. I assume that the cat-dog axis should be fairly close to the antitrad-trad axis. There are of course exceptions.

    For example Islam is very pro-cat and anti-dog so in the Muslim world the cat-dog axis probably negatively correlates with the antitrad-trad axis or maybe just correlates with non-Muslim%. Hinduism on the other hand does not like cats much. Hence a trad Hindu is probably more like to be pro-dog compared to an anti-trad Hindu.

    I think this cat-dog axis probably mostly correlates with the antitrad-trad axis except for in cultures with strong trad view on either species or both.

    • Replies: @Talha
  503. Mikel says:
    @Wency

    I don’t remember anyone volunteering that they were cat-only.

    I don’t know how this argument over pet preferences got associated with the prOn discussion but, fwiw, I am a cat-only man. Kittens are the cutest creatures in the animal world.

    I’ve had dogs in the past and they were amazingly loyal and emotional but, frankly, I have no use for their untidiness, constant licking and tendency to overreact. They can also be aggressive sometimes and dangerous with children.

    Having a small farm, I’m also planning to raise rabbits and perhaps, in the future, horses and small livestock. But definitely no dogs if my wife and I manage to keep the idea out of our little son’s mind.

  504. Talha says:
    @EastKekistani

    For example Islam is very pro-cat

    Correct, cats are granted a special exemption from other carnivores insofar as ritual purity is concerned.

    anti-dog

    The religion is not anti-dog anymore than it is anti-lion or anti-bear, it simply treats them just like other carnivores from a perspective of praxis. Except for the Maliki school, they have no purity rules with dogs (or other carnivores) and one of my former teachers studied in Mauritania with some of the top Maliki scholars and reported that they both owned dogs and would feed them with the same hand that they were eating with. Some Muslim cultures are quite anti-dog (like a good part of India and Pakistan) and some are pro-dog (like Turkey or those folks in Mauritania). I’ve noticed it often depends on rural versus city folks, so it kind of depends where you go.

    Peace.

  505. RSDB says:

    Dogs are liked in Ceylon:

    Unfortunately the police had to apologize to Buddhist authorities afterwards.

    Certain kinds of cat are seen less positively, at least by the government:

  506. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    New DNA Research Suggests Most of Europe’s Nobility Trace Their Lineage to a Handful of Traveling Medieval Bards

    It seriously wouldn’t surprise me in the least.

    • Replies: @Talha
  507. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    Money for nothin’, chicks for free…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  508. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    Can I trade places with Zakk Wylde’s guitar

  509. @Rosie

    “I have lived experience of my own, you know.”

    I thought you were straight – have you had many sexual relationships with women, exclusive or casual? If not you’re not qualified to preach on this subject.

    (From my long-ago memory, when I hung out with radical feminist types, lesbian relationships are at least as stormy as heterosexual ones.)

    • Replies: @Rosie
  510. Wency says:
    @EastKekistani

    It’s basically a myth that children were ever truly “profitable”. This should be intuitive, since reproduction is extremely expensive for every sort of animal. It is true that land-rich farming households were able to use their labor to defray a lot of costs of raising them though. Now they’re more expensive than ever, though people with children still live with far more convenience and luxury than in a colonial farmhouse.

    One cost has decreased massively though: the probability of death in childbirth could be as high as 10% per birth as late as the 19th century. I’d much rather pay 21st century prices for each child with 21st century risk of losing my wife.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  511. @Wency

    Right. I remember that late Roman Empire was also barren.

    Speaking of women in the past they generally pretty much had to marry outside the Hajnal line in temperate regions. Yes..even though reproduction was fairly deadly.

    Here is my Spengler-like hypothesis:

    Civilization causes wealth, knowledge and maybe even intelligence to grow. When knowledge is sufficiently accumulated it deconstructs enough pro-social myths, including the pro-social myth that reproduction is beneficial to oneself. When a society is sufficiently knowledgeable (e.g. late Roman Empire) it is no longer going to reproduce and fight a lot. This induces barbarian invasion..

    Then this cycle repeats.

  512. “When a society is sufficiently knowledgeable (e.g. late Roman Empire) it is no longer going to reproduce and fight a lot. This induces barbarian invasion..”

    http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf

    Empires begin when a small people burst upon the world scene. The pattern is repeated from Alexander the Great to Mohammed to the Mongols to the British.

    During the outburst period the new empire displays courage and great energy. Thus the Arabs conquered Spain in 711 with only 12,000 men. Their ships were burnt behind them for added encouragement. There was no way back, only forward to conquest.

    Glubb sees the outburst as aided by its poverty and lack of traditions. With nothing to bind the new imperial people by way of customs, they are free to quickly adopt new innovations.

    These are bloody, though providential, episodes — the imperial outburst spreads new customs, habits, and modes of thought to the conquered people.

    The new empire also has the advantage of binding large geographical areas together to allow trade — but without arising national jealousies. Glubb points out that the then European Economic Community is attempting to do what empires achieve through economic unity, but it cannot do so because the nations involved are rivals rather than vassals yoked together by an empire.

    This success in empire leads to an age of commerce, which in turn continues the tradition of exploration. Education remains tough, and encourages resilience and forcefulness in the young.

    What follows is a replacement of the pursuit of adventure with the adventure of pursuing money. Education ceases to inculcate martial, adventurous values and aims at producing qualified bureaucrats and technicians to maintain the status quo.

    This is the high point for an empire. There is immense wealth, and other nations are impressed and tremble at the empire’s prowess — and just about enough martial courage and adventurousness remains to keep the empire strong.

    It’s all down hill from here.

    Material luxury and comfort breeds a defensive disposition in the empire. People with something to lose are wary of risking too much in an adventure. The empire becomes pacific — the people forget their predatory past, and forget there are predatory peoples at the gates of the empire.

    Duty is abandoned and selfishness prevails.

    But great developments are made in science and the intellect. Science and technology do not, however, protect the empire from military decline.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @notanon
  513. Rosie says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    I thought you were straight – have you had many sexual relationships with women, exclusive or casual? If not you’re not qualified to preach on this subject.

    IOW, shut up! Sorry, but no. You are not entitled to tell me what I may have an opinion about.

    I am a woman and I know perfectly well what I do and do not want, and an unresponsive jerk for a husband is certainly not something I want.

    • Replies: @iffen
  514. iffen says:
    @Talha

    wanting to have children and propagate one’s genes

    People (mostly men) want to have a lot of sex which indirectly propagates one’s genes.

    The % of people who are genetically driven to “want children” is small.

    • Replies: @Talha
  515. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    radical feminist types

    Is this you, Rosie?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  516. Talha says:
    @iffen

    I don’t know about this; this might be true in the West. If you go travel in the Muslim world, for instance, men want children and are often proud of a large family.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @EastKekistani
  517. Rosie says:
    @iffen

    radical feminist types

    Is this you, Rosie?

    No. I’m a complementarian. Someone called me “paleofeminist” the other day. That’s probably fairly accurate.

  518. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    I don’t know about this; this might be true in the West. If you go travel in the Muslim world, for instance, men want children and are often proud of a large family.

    Peace.

    Antinatalism runs deep in the West. I seem to recall reading somewhere that ancient Rome had laws on the books compelling men to have sex with their wives, else they would just share prostitutes among themselves so they wouldn’t have to be bothered with legitimate children.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  519. @Talha

    Because you don’t live in late Abbasid Caliphate or late Delhi Sultanate?

    • Replies: @Talha
  520. @Rosie

    Not just the West..everywhere where there are high civilizations.

  521. Talha says:
    @EastKekistani

    Yes – partially. The elites in the Muslim world do act this way, but the masses do not (except in certain places like Iran – I watched a clip recently of a Shiah scholar berating a crowd in a mosque that they will be replaced by Sunnis in a couple of generations).

    But in the West, this has percolated down to the masses to the extreme.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  522. @RSDB

    Fair, once you’re there. This question should be asked prior to marriage if the intention is not to have children.

    • Replies: @RSDB
  523. @AaronB

    Mind sharing the link?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  524. @anon

    Re: the upper classes, Augustus’ reportedly mostly futile attempt to force female probity in Rome seems like an example of the upper trying unsuccessfully to force the middle to be less lax.

  525. @AaronB

    There is of course the common quip that rich and famous men don’t pay prostitutes for sex, they pay them not to tell anyone about it.

  526. @YetAnotherAnon

    Yep.

    Intellectualism and STEM can only be freed once there are enough people who don’t believe in pro-social myths.

    The main reason why hopefully this time there will no longer be the cycle is because tech is contributing to military strength while pro-social myths are increasingly useless in war.

  527. @Talha

    (except in certain places like Iran – I watched a clip recently of a Shiah scholar berating a crowd in a mosque that they will be replaced by Sunnis in a couple of generations).

    This won’t really help. A sufficiently rational (which correlates with selfism) and knowledgeable person is just very unlikely to voluntarily do anything good for the tribe that is against his/her own interests.

    • Replies: @Talha
  528. @Rosie

    Re: attitudes towards marriage and the courts, it seems one thing that could be done to shore up the desirability of the institution is to encourage prenuptial arrangements and then ensure that they are honored in the case of divorce. I’ve talked to many men who explicitly say stories about prenups being ignored in divorce proceedings are what scare them more than anything else.

    It’s not a pleasant topic to discuss ahead of marriage, but the benefits of doing so would outweigh the drawbacks if it were enforced, I think.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Wency
  529. RSDB says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Agree. Can’t see how this gets skipped.

  530. Talha says:
    @EastKekistani

    Who says having children is against one’s own self-interest? It’s certainly a cost benefit analysis. Having children certainly helps in old age and as something to fall back on for support. My brother is over at my parents’ house all the time to help them with stuff (my Dad’s health is not good) and I make specific trips out to California just to help them with things around the house.

    The Sunnis in Iran seem to be having kids. Now it can be said they are more rural people than Shiahs, so there’s that.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    , @EastKekistani
  531. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    It really depends, I suppose, on what the self is interested in.

    • Replies: @Talha
  532. Talha says:
    @RSDB

    Yup. Now do you think elderly Japanese would be committing crimes just to get into jail if they were surrounded by their grandchildren?
    “Elderly people in Japan are getting arrested on purpose because they want to go to prison”
    https://www.businessinsider.com/japan-aging-prison-2018-3

    To ask the question is to answer it.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @RSDB
  533. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    Most people in the West seem to realize this sometime before 50, which may still be too late depending on the person.

    Some of these people in Japan actually do seem to have children: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-16/japan-s-prisons-are-a-haven-for-elderly-women

    “ My son tells me I’m ill and I should be hospitalized in a mental institution and take it easy. But I don’t think I’m ill.”

    It’s really quite bizarre.

    • Replies: @Talha
  534. @Rosie

    Two of my earliest serious introductions to thoughtful engagement on the internet were to Randall Parker of the old Parapundit blog and the polymath Razib Khan. The former is firmly a dog person, the latter firmly a cat person. I don’t know that I’ve been able to tease out a consistent line of demarcation, though. Since 2018 is the first year the GSS has asked about pets, the sample sizes are probably too small to tease much out.

    I suffer pretty severe allergic reactions to cats, so we are by default a (single) dog family. That’s on account of my wife and by extension the kids, though. I’d prefer not have any pets at all.

  535. Mikel says:
    @Rosie

    Men may get bored, but they don’t stop wanting sex altogether like women do.

    I think that you’re talking mostly about what some women allow themselves to do within the limited set of choices culturally acceptable to them. Nature abhors idle organs and reproductive organs are obviously not an exception, regardless of cultural norms.

    In fact, some men also lose interest in sex as they get older or see themselves otherwise unfit for sexual relations. This is likely not too different from women’s experience.

    Giving up on sex altogether is most likely unhealthy though. You can’t try to mentally switch off an organ that is still consuming metabolic resources and expect no consequences. A good husband who sees that his wife is no longer interested in having sex with him should try to encourage her to at least use purpose-made toys. Although I read (in the feminine section of a newspaper, of course) that an increasing amount of women don’t need any encouragement for this.

  536. notanon says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    alternatively

    a vigorous people become successful and start expanding.

    their success attracts parasites.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  537. Talha says:
    @RSDB

    But I wonder if those children are married and have kids, what’s your guess?

    It also depends on how much the son keeps up with his mother, whether he is aloof or not.

    I guess being in prison beats this:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/world/asia/japan-lonely-deaths-the-end.html

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @RSDB
  538. Rosie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Re: attitudes towards marriage and the courts, it seems one thing that could be done to shore up the desirability of the institution is to encourage prenuptial arrangements and then ensure that they are honored in the case of divorce. I’ve talked to many men who explicitly say stories about prenups being ignored in divorce proceedings are what scare them more than anything else.

    It’s not a pleasant topic to discuss ahead of marriage, but the benefits of doing

    Prenuptial agreements are attempts to override society’s definition of the rights and responsibilities of marriage. I don’t like them. I would not blame a woman who flat out refused to consider marrying a man who demanded a prenup.

    You have to remember that whatever property a spouse brings into a marriage remains their separate property.

    Only property earned by either spouse during the marriage is considered marital property, as it should be.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @Rosie
    , @Wency
  539. @notanon

    a vigorous people become successful and start expanding.

    their success attracts parasites.

    Both hold.

    The main issue here is actually what “parasites” mean. Some “parasites” are actually parasites. Others are in fact barbarians, that is, potential conquerors. Yet some others are fellahs. Fellahs can’t conquer. However fellah tribes are usually shrewd business people and workers who tend to cause a society to be more and more like them (and hence get enslaved by despots or barbarians).

  540. @Talha

    But I wonder if those children are married and have kids, what’s your guess?

    In Japan many people don’t have sex. Even those who are actually married often lose interest in sex after the birth of the first child.

  541. @Rosie

    Only property earned by either spouse during the marriage is considered marital property, as it should be.

    Communism, huh? This is a reason why a sufficiently self-interested and rational man does not tend to get married. That dated back to at least late Roman Empire..

    • Replies: @Rosie
  542. @Talha

    Who says having children is against one’s own self-interest? It’s certainly a cost benefit analysis. Having children certainly helps in old age and as something to fall back on for support. My brother is over at my parents’ house all the time to help them with stuff (my Dad’s health is not good) and I make specific trips out to California just to help them with things around the house.

    Are children ever going to pay back everything their parents give them plus interests? Nope. Then again whether kids are profitable depends on whether certain religions are factually accurate.

    Maybe…it is indeed true that people who are sufficiently free from pro-social myths tend to be single and childless?

    • Replies: @Talha
  543. Wency says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Marriage is still strong among the upper middle class — i.e., those who have something to lose. Marriage is weakest among those who have nothing to lose.

    I believe that the sort of man you’re describing exists — I was one of them. But he’s not that common, and I still ended up getting married. All the taboos and fears about pre-nups did is encourage me to be extremely scrutinizing in the woman I chose. This is a good thing. If it weren’t for this fear, I might have been more tempted to marry that girlfriend I mentioned upthread who was plainly wrong for me.

    All that said, my understanding is that in reality, U.S. judges throw out pre-nups only under extraordinary circumstances, usually ones where the man was plainly a bad actor with an incompetent lawyer. I’d be curious if anyone knows any reliable stories to the contrary.

  544. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    It’s very rare for me to agree with the Gray Lady, but here it is.

    https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/03/21/the-power-of-the-prenup/if-you-want-a-prenup-you-dont-want-marriage

    The nature of a prenup is that it is a kind of social fraud. It reflects a desire for the social recognition of marriage, while stipulating the actual, binding legal marriage out of existence by means of various ifs, and, and buts.

    • Replies: @Wency
  545. Rosie says:
    @EastKekistani

    Communism, huh?

    Yes, indeed. That’s precisely what a marriage is.

    Otherwise, you wind up with the absurd situation where a woman can marry a man “for better or for worse,” but with no upside, which is really just “for worse.” If he never has a pot to piss in, she’ll be poor. If he gets rich, he dumps her for a younger woman, and she is poor.

    There’s nothing at all in that deal for women.

  546. Talha says:
    @EastKekistani

    Are children ever going to pay back everything their parents give them

    Impossible. It is reported that the Companion, Ibn Umar (ra), saw a man carrying his mother on his back and circling the Kaabah, the man asked him; have I repaid her? To which Ibn Umar (ra) replied; not even one birthing pain.

    depends on whether certain religions are factually accurate.

    Agreed, only the Divine can truly grant complete recompense, though there is one thing mentioned about the father:
    “No child can compensate his father unless he finds him as a slave, buys him, and sets him free.” – reported in Muslim

    people who are sufficiently free from pro-social myths tend to be single and childless?

    Seems that this is the trend. Freedom comes with it’s own cost.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  547. Wency says:
    @Rosie

    “whatever property a spouse brings into a marriage remains their separate property.”

    This depends on the state and is not always true. Even if the state protects these things in principle, a pre-nup can help hammer it out more clearly, or if the state changes its laws (or you move states).

    The other thing pre-nups tend to do is protect against large alimony claims.

    The thing they are generally NOT supposed to do is what you’re describing: award one party a disproportionate share of assets accumulated during the marriage.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  548. Rosie says:
    @Wency

    The other thing pre-nups tend to do is protect against large alimony claims.

    Right. IOW, it totally negates the legal existence of the marriage.

    The thing they are generally NOT supposed to do is what you’re describing: award one party a disproportionate share of assets accumulated during the marriage.

    Anything other than 50/50 is a slap in the face to homemakers, especially those who married their husbands when they had nothing. Imagine being there for your husband for all those years while he built up his career, and then him being allowed to replace you with a younger model with no financial consequences. That is in fact what the “men’s rights movement” is demanding and it is GD disgrace. There is in fact nothing “traditional” or “wholesome” about it.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Wency
  549. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    Mother’s Day is coming up. Let’s remember Mrs. Schlaffly (pbuh), and her efforts to protect traditional, SAHM.

    https://judyflander.org/phyllis-schlafly-era-is-anti-family-fraud-leaves-wives-without-support-edd9e7a89a11

  550. Wency says:
    @Rosie

    Well, this guy is evidently a conservative and he speaks a lot of sense.

    Or at least, when entering a first marriage, with relatively few assets. I’m not sure what the wisest approach to take is if you’re Donald Trump. He probably could have done better and married once, but he could have done worse and been robbed blind in his divorces. He likely would not have been able to produce the children he did without marriage.

    But for 99% of people in a first marriage, I agree that if you’re demanding a pre-nup, it probably means you have the wrong mentality and have likely chosen the wrong woman.

  551. @Talha

    Yep. So we have established that the very existence of children depends on either pro-social myths or in the case of careless people, carelessness. Since people believe in fewer pro-social myths the amount of children decreases and reproduction becomes dysgenic.

    • Replies: @Talha
  552. Wency says:
    @Rosie

    As someone mentioned earlier, a lot of the problem seems to do with debates about typical cases vs. extraordinary cases.

    A lot of MRA types might look at Bezos’ wife and say she should be happy with, say, $1 billion. Does she really deserve tens of billions? On the other hand, who really cares? Money at that level is mostly just a method of keeping score.

    I agree the situation you name is important and non-trivial; protecting stay-at-home moms from men who trade in for a younger model. Of course, we know this isn’t the majority of cases, since men only file 20-30% of divorces, but it’s common enough.

    The flip side of this, where a pre-nup could help, is the situation where the uncertainty about a payout provides a woman with more incentive to work on a struggling marriage, just as the social stigma and legal pain of divorce provide incentives to work on the marriage.

    How typical is that second scenario? Hard to say, I suppose there’s a legitimate debate if the more typical case of a woman filing is “Man is a womanizing, drinking, abusive scumbag and woman can’t take it anymore so files divorce” vs. “Woman just isn’t feeling anymore despite man making full-court press to save marriage, so she files divorce.” We each have our anecdotes, but I’ve never seen stats.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  553. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    My opinion is that if the lady was really insane she would probably be in or at least receiving treatment from the prison hospital.

    It’s really not my job to guess whether other people’s children are unfilial or infertile, but something is clearly very broken. It all seems very bizarre for a Confucian-descended society with such an emphasis on duty in many ways.

    • Replies: @Talha
  554. Rosie says:
    @Wency

    How typical is that second scenario? Hard to say, I suppose there’s a legitimate debate if the more typical case of a woman filing is “Man is a womanizing, drinking, abusive scumbag and woman can’t take it anymore so files divorce” vs. “Woman just isn’t feeling anymore despite man making full-court press to save marriage, so she files divorce.” We each have our anecdotes, but I’ve never seen stats.

    IMO the solution is to do away with no-fault divorce altogether.

    I suspect that we already don’t actually have no-fault divorce. We have judges who do what they think is fair in the individual case, and then find a way to rationalize it within the current legal framework. I am perfectly satisfied with that state of affairs. I understand men typically are not. What to do?

    I am unclear whether men’s dissatisfaction is dissatisfaction with marriage as such, as is apparently the case for EastKekistani, or whether they think “the system is biased” against them for whatever reason.

    It’s a vexing problem, to be sure.

    • Replies: @notanon
  555. Talha says:
    @EastKekistani

    reproduction becomes dysgenic.

    I don’t see why. Especially if “dysgenic” is defined as that which is not conducive to survival and genetic propagation; remember, Darwinian selection process doesn’t care for anyone’s aesthetics – the most fit to survive, do.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  556. Talha says:
    @RSDB

    Yes, I’ve always thought filial piety was such a huge thing in those societies. Of course that requires kids in the first place.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @RSDB
  557. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    It’s a vexing problem, to be sure.

    in my experience a lot of the problem is the economic backdrop making relatively minor relationship difficulties worse than they would otherwise have been.

    fixing the economic backdrop (shrinking middle class) would fix a lot of it.

    • Agree: Rosie
  558. @Talha

    That was the case before 1840s. However we have already seen the consequences of isolationism and cultural ossification. Thanks to our high IQ and grit non-NE Asian colonization of NEA territories generally completely failed. However new ideas from Europeans poured in but unlike earlier inputs from East Iranians, Persians and Arabs this time the mental wall was completely torn down.

    Both Soviet influence in China & NK and Western influence in Japan, SK, Taiwan and Singapore caused us to change. Overall it is definitely for the better.

    Of course you will disagree but that’s fine. I know very well that I’m a product of late civilization and am adapted to late civilization. With tech we should be able to prevent the good old barbarian invasions.

    • Replies: @Talha
  559. Talha says:
    @EastKekistani

    Yeah, I’m not worried about a barbarian invasion, I’m more intrigued by which permutation of a dystopian hyper-Technopoly will eventually emerge there. Nobody wants to attack China, not worth it.

    There is, of course, the growing numbers of Christians there and that will eventually come to a head, but not sure which way that one will go.

    Peace.

  560. @Talha

    Especially if “dysgenic” is defined as that which is not conducive to survival and genetic propagation

    Well, that’s not how it’s defined…

    • Replies: @Talha
  561. Talha says:
    @EastKekistani

    Don’t see why:
    “tending to promote survival of or reproduction by less well-adapted individuals (such as the weak or diseased) especially at the expense of well-adapted individuals (such as the strong or healthy)”
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dysgenic

    Sorry, but if idiots inherit the earth, they are the ones that are well adapted by definition.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
  562. @Talha

    Sorry, but if idiots inherit the earth, they are the ones that are well adapted by definition.

    Yes. But is this a world we want??

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Truth
  563. Talha says:
    @EastKekistani

    Irrelevant. The future belongs to those that bother to show up. It’s like losing a football game then complaining about the colors on the other team’s jerseys; who cares, they get to hoist the trophy and go sleep with the cheerleaders.

    Intelligence is preferable when it is a trait that correlates with being well-adapted for survival, if a certain level of intelligence leads to an organism being less well-adapted, then it becomes a dysgenic trait – you can’t retconn Darwinian paradigms.

    Peace.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone, Truth
    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    , @iffen
  564. @Talha

    Irrelevant. The future belongs to those that bother to show up. It’s like losing a football game then complaining about the colors on the other team’s jerseys; who cares, they get to hoist the trophy and go sleep with the cheerleaders.

    Intelligence is preferable when it is a trait that correlates with being well-adapted for survival, if a certain level of intelligence leads to an organism being less well-adapted, then it becomes a dysgenic trait – you can’t retconn Darwinian paradigms.

    Well, there are still transhumanism and genetic engineering. However the incentives here are almost the same as the incentives in reproduction. If new humans are allowed to be free then manufacturing humans will be unprofitable. Hence there will either be very few new humans manufactured through transhumanism etc or the new class of humans will have to be in some sense unfree and in fact it is likely that such humans may be deliberately made servile and obedient.

    I do suspect that if there are intelligent aliens or intelligent community of robots somewhere in the universe they have the same social problems humans have. There are always situations in societies where the Prisoner’s Dilemma takes place..The more competent an individual is the more likely that it is also more competent at evading rules of the society…Hence pro-social myths evolve to deliberately nerf individuals to reduce effective defection…This causes sufficiently cunning individuals to pretend to believe in pro-social myths while not actually believing in them..

  565. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    Reading EK’s reply is interesting because the last time I was talking to him he had this image of a society in which everyone under 50 was disenfranchised, which he seemed to think I supported. And I think, even more than that, since pretty much everybody was in some sense disenfranchised 200 years ago in most of the world, the implication was, I suppose, that nobody under 50 made any significant decisions at all. (My impression, fwiw, was that if that ever happened it must have been in a society with a pretty decent life expectancy.)

    I guess he means that was 200 years ago? If that is anything remotely like an accurate picture it means conditions have made a full pendulum swing since then, which I suppose is a danger in going too far in taking society in any one direction.

    Or maybe Japanese are just different? You don’t hear, at least here in the West, about this happening in China, even where they have pretty severe birthrate issues.

    My mother befriended an elderly Japanese couple in Colombo a while ago. They were both retired and the man was making a pretty good effort to learn Tamil*. I have no idea if they had children, but I never heard about any. His life plan, which he talked about a lot, was to attend to his wife until she died, then commit suicide (which he also explained). If he died first he was saving his pension so his wife could go back to Japan and live in familiar surroundings. Hopefully there were children or somebody she could stay with, but, again, I’m not really sure.

    East Asians (like Tamils) can be a very passionate and determined people. I wonder if after being beaten by the Americans the Japanese just took Americanism and ran with it, much farther than actual Americans would ever go?

    *You might ask, why Tamil? I’m not sure of that either but I think he believed it had some sort of mystical connection to Japanese.

    OT: By the way, I hear that an assault, or at least some threatening (reports differ), has been made in SL on some Ahmadi refugees from Pakistan and they were subsequently moved out of one of the bombed areas (where they were living) for their own safety. I also heard on the grapevine rather than on the news that certain Muslim fishermen had their boats burned. Obviously this is not ideal. But the reaction seems to have been confined, more or less, to right around the mass funerals, and the Ahmadis may have been targeted because people knew they were foreigners and assumed (idiotically) that they were spreading Saudi-style ideas. And in general things are better than I expected, and the Cardinal Abp. of Colombo has made it pretty clear that the “Islamic community” at large is not to be blamed.

    In general, if the Christians were to engage in serious retaliation right now they’d have the whole island behind them. So the degree of restraint is praiseworthy even if it has been violated to a minor degree (all things considered) by some hotheads. Some Western media outlets are delighted to have in these minor incidents a confirmation of their Standard Narrative and run with them.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    , @YetAnotherAnon
  566. Porn is evil.
    There is nothing good about it.
    Porn sucks the living soul out of a person.
    Porn is addictive and changes the brain chemistry,
    creating neural pathways that teach the mind/body to respond ONLY
    to porn stimulus and NOT the real thing.
    Thus, even young men can become impotent due to porn.
    Sexual energy is very powerful and should be used wisely, and if one does not have a
    sex partner then it’s wise to use that energy to improve oneself and the world at large.
    We only have so much time on this earth. It is not very manly to spend one’s time
    drooling over some useless drug addicted low IQ slut on the internet.
    Any activity would be more productive.
    Porn brings shame to men, makes men feel like losers, creates crazy expectations
    regarding real life women, etc.etc.etc.
    AND….the nose is behind porn and it’s being used to RUIN our people.
    That should be enough to make you stop using porn.

    • Replies: @iffen
  567. RSDB says:
    @RSDB

    But the worst thing that happened was that several people –Christians, even!!!– stole from some of the dead bodies in Negombo. That is frankly going to cause a lot more trouble down the line than the silly Ahmadi kerfluffle or any such similar thing.

    • Replies: @Talha
  568. iffen says:
    @Talha

    Social Darwinists have difficultly grasping the idea that some people have legitimate objections to the evolutionary environment that they wish to create. They think: “What’s good for me is good for you too, even if you are not around anymore.”

    • Replies: @Talha
  569. iffen says:
    @Robert Dolan

    the nose is behind porn

    I don’t know if the schoolmarm will let this slide. You may have to sub in “people who have a group evolutionary strategy.”

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  570. Talha says:
    @RSDB

    after being beaten by the Americans the Japanese just took Americanism and ran with it

    I can see this; I have no idea what the effect was on the national psyche for the god-emperor and his people to be defeated and so utterly on their impregnable fortress island due to technology…it may have led to a unique “never again” mentality.

    So the degree of restraint is praiseworthy even if it has been violated to a minor degree (all things considered)

    I agree, the words of the cardinal are exactly what I would expect from a Christian who understands his religion. I honestly wish more Muslims would have more restraint when it comes to cases of potential communal violence.

    several people –Christians, even!!!– stole from some of the dead bodies in Negombo.

    Ok, now that is pretty deplorable. You wonder what goes through people’s mind sometimes.

    Peace.

  571. Pericles says:

    If you want to learn further about how divorce, child support etc works in practice (at a layman level), you could do worse than looking through the following:

    http://www.realworlddivorce.com/

  572. Talha says:
    @iffen

    Social Darwinists have difficultly grasping the idea that some people have legitimate objections to the evolutionary environment that they wish to create.

    My big beef is in the inconsistency of applying first principles. If someone asks; “But is this a world we want??” that implies a purpose-driven end point or some sort of preferred goal. That’s simply not built into the framework. Evolution doesn’t care what the surviving hominid looks like, the whole point is survival.

    For instance, if it turns out that all women who are 9s and 10s end up wasting their lives away bouncing from one guy to another who gives them temporary attention until they are finally used up and incapable of having kids while more homely women settle down with normal guys and the society becomes aesthetically uglier – guess what, extreme beauty was a liability in that stage of our evolutionary progress. You might not like to imagine a world full of uglier humans, but that is irrelevant.

    If human beings wipe each other (and half the species) out due to a cataclysmic war or scientific blunder, the question is settled; higher intelligence is ultimately a liability and cockroaches are superior in the long run.

    Peace.

  573. iffen says:
    @Talha

    If someone asks; “But is this a world we want??” that implies a purpose-driven end point or some sort of preferred goal.

    Right, they have a preferred model that they want to create, then they want to step back and say, “It’s just evolution, we’re not responsible.”

    • Replies: @Talha
  574. Talha says:
    @iffen

    Yeah, it seems kind of cheap to whine about some group wanting a world without you around while also being quite vocal about wanting a world without them around. I guess at the end of the day, each side of that argument seems to want to “curve” evolution in the right direction for their preferred model and end goal.

    Peace.

  575. notanon says:
    @notanon

    thinking more about this

    for any younger dudes
    – sometimes they’re genuinely mad
    – sometimes they’re period-cranky
    – sometimes it’s a testosterone test

    how do you tell?

    i don’t know as i never really thought about it but looking back if i had to guess it would be

    1) if they’re making a rational argument they’re probably genuinely mad about something -> probably worth listening

    2) if they’re not making a rational argument and they’re on their period then they’re probably period-cranky -> get them some chocolates and go fishing

    3) if they’re not making a rational argument and they’re not on their period -> probably a testosterone test

    and actually the more i think about my own experiences the more i wouldn’t be at all surprised if testosterone tests mostly happen when they’re ovulating i.e. it’s a sex thing.

  576. @Talha

    Evolution doesn’t care what the surviving hominid looks like, the whole point is survival.

    Right. However human interventions are by definition a part of nature and hence can change the direction of evolution.

    If human beings wipe each other (and half the species) out due to a cataclysmic war or scientific blunder, the question is settled; higher intelligence is ultimately a liability and cockroaches are superior in the long run.

    Well, we can stop that.

    • Replies: @Talha
  577. @Rosie

    So far as I know, only Anatoly Karlin, Toronto Russian (?), and I are outspoken cat-lovers. Mr. Karlin and myself also being known to be very pro-dog as well.

    No really, I don’t care about pets. We even gave away potted plants when our kid started to mess with the soil, and I don’t miss them. Anatoly is allergic to cats and has lived with two family dogs IIRC.

  578. @Wency

    Women have no evolutionary instincts regarding sexbots per se, except to view them like a man having a romantic relationship with a cow, or possibly a shovel. “Weird pathetic pervert loser, stay away”.

    Roger Taylor gets a pass for being in love with his car.

  579. Talha says:
    @EastKekistani

    However human interventions are by definition a part of nature and hence can change the direction of evolution.

    I’m not sure you can change the direction of evolution, since human intents to do so are subsumed by evolution, that is why I put the word curve in quotes. All you are doing is adding another selection pressure into the mix. You literally cannot determine who/what is most adapted in the survival of the fittest until the dust clears – the one left standing gets the prize. The direction evolution has taken is always determined after the fact.

    I assume you’re familiar with The Tortoise and the Hare?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
  580. @RSDB

    “You might ask, why Tamil? I’m not sure of that either but I think he believed it had some sort of mystical connection to Japanese.”

    There may be a Buddhist connection. Sri Lanka is where the Bodhi sapling (from the tree beneath which the Buddha received enlightenment) was planted in the Ashokan Empire period, and there are Buddha relics there. Japanese Buddhists visit the shrines there (as they do other Buddhist sites in the subcontinent – there are Japanese Buddhist temples in places like Sarnath and Bodh Gaya).

    Mind, I could be wrong, as the Sinhalese are more likely to be Buddhists – most Tamils are Hindu. Tamil is a very old language, the literature goes back more than 2,000 years (to about the Ashokan period, maybe that’s coincidence).

    • Replies: @RSDB
  581. iffen says:
    @Talha

    I’m not sure you can change the direction of evolution

    I’m just an amateur, Talha, but I think that you are wrong here. Humans have been shaping the environment for quite a while and then that environment shapes us. That said, recognition of unintended consequences seems to be above our paygrade. We (the West) are reaping what we have sown.

    • Replies: @RSDB
  582. RSDB says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Yes, I meant “Why Tamil as opposed to Sinhala?” They both already spoke okay English, otherwise we wouldn’t have been able to understand them.

    Yeah, the Sinhalese have a relationship with Buddhism going very far back, and they’re still very respected at least in the Theravada community. Classical Sinhala is, as far as I know, a fairly useful language to know for Buddhist academic work.

    Tamil is rather less so, to say the least. It’s possible that the great monk Bodhidharma who had a lot to do with the origin of Zen may have been Tamil, but it doesn’t seem certain. As far as I know that’s about the only significant Tamil contribution to Buddhism. I thought maybe his interest was because Tamil and Japanese are fairly euphonious agglutinative languages. But come to think of it, I wonder now if there aren’t cultural similarities between Tamils and Japanese (and Germans). Again, come to think of it, all the Germans I ever heard of in SL were pro-Tamil to some extent. Tamils have the same stereotypes of being industrious and educated, shy, having a bizarre sense of humor which makes their neighbors think they have no sense of humor…

    And like the Germans and Japanese the Tamils are not bad at war-fighting. They’re never, hopefully, going to have the record the first two had, because the opportunity won’t arise, but a Tamil group* succeeded in denying the Army control over a significant area of country, bleeding the Indian Army until India decided that fighting wasn’t worth it, and holding off a ruthless foe vastly superior in manpower, equipment, and financing for well over a decade, along with creating a “navy” and “air force” from scratch.

    *Note to FBI: I really don’t like the LTTE. But as a fighting force they were pretty impressive.

  583. RSDB says:
    @iffen

    But it’s a semantic question; in the worldview under discussion humans are the environment, because to make them not so requires importing some tricky metaphysical baggage.

    And again in this view the “direction” of evolution is a myth constructed after the fact; hence it cannot exist in the present. So we do things; a bunch of people are born and a bunch of people die, and a few generations hence someone says “In the twenty-first century human evolution was directed along the lines of x; it seems varying political factions desired y or z

    • Replies: @iffen
  584. @iffen

    It’s highlighting a stereotypical feature without dehumanizing or being vulgar, so while she doesn’t like it, her powers of censure are not unbounded. This slides.

    • Replies: @iffen
  585. @Talha

    Well put.

    “X supremacy” is one of those phrases that is designed to shutdown rather than stimulate discussion, but if I were to employ it, it’d be determined by TFRs.

    • Replies: @Toronto Russian
  586. iffen says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Since you are in validation business can you validate that stereotype?

    I can say that Jews are usurious, money grubbing financial cheats that apply a different moral behavior when dealing with Gentiles?

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  587. iffen says:
    @RSDB

    I am in general agreement with your comment.

    The point that I was trying to make, and I think Talha agrees, is that some people want to tinker with the environment in order to”direct” evolution in a certain direction, thereby disadvantaging certain groups that they consider not up to snuff in the current environment. Then they want to turn around and say, “We are not responsible, it’s evolution.”

    • Replies: @Talha
  588. Truth says:
    @EastKekistani

    It’s the one you want; you brag of being an incel who will never have kids.

  589. Talha says:
    @iffen

    As RSDB pointed out, my point was a semantic one and one of perspective.

    The essence of my point is that evolution succeeds whether one sort of human remains or another or whether humans remain at all. That might suck from a human perspective, but whatever, Diplodocus isn’t around to complain either and it’s kind of nice for us since that is one biga** lizard.

    I would go into more detail about how our cognition is also a result of evolution and and our ability to change the environment and even our arguing whether to do so…but Ramadan is around the corner so I’ve got preparation to do (which includes less online time).

    Peace.

  590. @iffen

    I’d be happy to try if the data were available!

    Sure, you can assert as much. No racial slurs, nothing dehumanizing. Comments don’t have to be true to be permitted.

  591. @YetAnotherAnon

    But these days, how many of the underclass get married? And the underclass is still a minority, although a much bigger one than 60 years ago. Most women and men don’t belong to it. They are I’d have thought a smallish minority of divorces.

    Sure, I don’t contradict it and don’t absolve women of responsibility. The last divorce in my Toronto (diaspora) social circle was when a rich old businessman’s younger wife, who had left her previous husband for him, cheated on him with a computer repair guy. Who said nerds can’t get chicks? I just say there are other parts of human experience than the one the MRA present as the universal truth. And that’s just in America. In other cultures, for example, a marriage may be broken up by fighting between mother-in-law and daughter-in-law, with husband remaining a passive figure, or by any kind of other weird stuff.

  592. @Audacious Epigone

    “X supremacy” is one of those phrases that is designed to shutdown rather than stimulate discussion, but if I were to employ it, it’d be determined by TFRs.

    Faroese supremacy!

    https://www.faroeislands.fo/people-society/people-of-the-faroe-islands/population/

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