The Unz Review • An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersAudacious Epigone Blog
Peaceful Parenting by Race and Ethnicity
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

Observing the horrifying behavior of a 13 year old callously taking the life of a man she didn’t know in a carjacking gone wrong, songbird wonders if a little early life corporal intervention could have kept her off the homicidal path she ended up going down:

Would those two black girls have killed that Uber Eats driver in DC, if they attended an all girls school where nuns used the yardstick to dole out punishment?

Blacks are more supportive of physically disciplining children than members of other races are:

This doesn’t necessarily tell us anything about the particular tragedy in Washington DC last month, of course.

One problem with the idea some children are so unruly or sociopathic that physical punishment is necessary is the presumption that administering it leads to a better outcome than not doing so does. The anecdotes are invariably along the lines of “he did all these horrible things and nothing else worked so he got a whooping”. But did the whooping work? Was it the thing that finally altered the bad behavior?

The fear of violence will get compliance in the moment, little else. If what would in any other relationship be deemed battery is taken off the table, a wider range of alternative approaches present themselves. If violence is perceived to be a legitimate option, there’s a risk it becomes the default response because it’s the easiest one.

GSS variables used: SPANKING(1-2)(3-4), RACECEN1(1)(2)(3)(4-10), RELIG(1-2,4-13)(3), HISPANIC(1)(2-50)

 
Hide 46 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. Now add class to the mix, too.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @TomSchmidt

    Necessary to spank by class:

    Lower -- 76%
    Working -- 77%
    Middle -- 69%
    Upper -- 63%

  2. Black mothers tell their children to “shut up” about ten times as often as white mothers do. Would grown up blacks be louder without that constant admonition in their youth? Or is their loudness reactionary?

  3. All civilised human relationships are policed at their vital peripheries by the threat of violence.

    You enter into a contract with me. If you breach it, I’ll sue you. If you don’t settle the claim, we go to Court. If we go to Court, a judge will order you to compensate me. If you refuse to compensate me, the judge will authors a bailiff or sheriff to seize your property. Resisting the seizure is a crime. Resist arrest and you can be physically restrained. Attempt to abscond and you are denied bail. Be convicted and you can be jailed or fined. Fail to pay the fine and a whole new enforcement mechanism kicks in.

    Come to my house and act the dick. I’ll ask you to leave. You refuse to leave, I call the police. If you still refuse to leave, the police can drag you out.

    In each case, there is a chain of cause and effect which, sooner or later, leads to violence. The actual resort to violence is vanishingly rare, in some cases, so much so that nobody even things about it as an operational variable in the situation.

    But imagine completely removing the threat of violence. It’s like knocking over the first domino. Quickly and inexorably, the question of “What if I don’t feel like it?” is met with the answer of “Er, then I’ll have no choice but to ask you nicely again.”

    With children, we have two key distinctions:

    1. Children can’t be sued. That Peripheral threat of violence is gone.

    2. Children can’t generally be held criminally responsible – and where they can, we seek to avoid that step at all costs.

    There is thus no implicit threat of violence policing the relationship. Into this vacuum traditionally came actual violence: “Don’t do as I tell you and you get a wallop!”

    Take that threat away and what’s left: “Do as I say or I’ll be forced to reason with you!” And yes, I know that there are intermediate punishments like docking toys and pocket money but they don’t always work, which is why we had corporal punishment in the first place.

    Not threatening a child with corporal punishment effectively turns him into the equivalent of a mentally retarded adult with irreversible diplomatic immunity – I.e. a person lacking the ability to understand the consequences of his actions but with a special license to act with impunity.

    And so humanity’s story ends. The children are in power. The parents are in thrall.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund, Rosie
    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Truth
    @Irish Paleo


    Come to my house and act the dick. I’ll ask you to leave. You refuse to leave, I call the police. If you still refuse to leave, the police can drag you out.
     
    Bro, I never thought that I would say this, but I am really starting to miss the old-fashioned Keyboard Commando.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    @Irish Paleo

    Most adults' behavior is not motivated by a fear of physical violence, especially now. No argument that utilizing it as a last resort is better than employing it as a regular measure of discipline though.

  4. Low IQ children need more physical discipline than high IQ ones. The chart proves exactly that.

  5. 216 says: • Website

    O/T

    I don’t feel safe in a country where anti-white racists like Ted Lieu have power over me.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Asian_Pacific_American_Caucus

    All we are asking for is the same right to engage in identity politics.

    And WE ARE NEVER ALLOWED TO HAVE ANYTHING.

    I hate this country.

    • Replies: @Pop Warner
    @216

    The America First caucus isn't even racial. They literally say it's about Anglo Saxon principles like common law and presumption of innocence. They should have just made it an explicitly pro-white caucus because that's what they're accused of regardless.

    Naturally Ted Lieu, the most evil and seditious member of Congress, has nothing but contempt for these basic principles. There's nothing stopping him from joining the AF Caucus as an Asian, but since he has shown his complete hatred for whites and every aspect of American history it probably won't be the caucus for him. And the reaction to even a defense of values has shown that we need explicit pro-whites in Congress now more than ever, and not the usual hints and dogwhistles the GOP engages in but full on white advocacy. This will never be feasible through the GOP since even a defense of basic values is enough for the Stupid Party leadership to condemn their own allies to placate their enemies. What is clear is that Lieu is the enemy, and high IQ immigrants like Asians are an even greater threat to whites than low IQ Immigrants like Hispanics.

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @216

    If they were serious about defending the interests of white people, they would have an actual 'White Caucus' instead of all this nonsense.

    But they are all Jewish puppets, so of course they would never do that.

    Replies: @songbird

  6. Let’s be real here guys. Any adult man knows that a young boy needs one or two beatings from dad in order to grow up right

  7. @216
    O/T

    I don't feel safe in a country where anti-white racists like Ted Lieu have power over me.

    https://twitter.com/tedlieu/status/1383258681718964224

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Asian_Pacific_American_Caucus

    All we are asking for is the same right to engage in identity politics.

    And WE ARE NEVER ALLOWED TO HAVE ANYTHING.

    I hate this country.

    Replies: @Pop Warner, @Kent Nationalist

    The America First caucus isn’t even racial. They literally say it’s about Anglo Saxon principles like common law and presumption of innocence. They should have just made it an explicitly pro-white caucus because that’s what they’re accused of regardless.

    Naturally Ted Lieu, the most evil and seditious member of Congress, has nothing but contempt for these basic principles. There’s nothing stopping him from joining the AF Caucus as an Asian, but since he has shown his complete hatred for whites and every aspect of American history it probably won’t be the caucus for him. And the reaction to even a defense of values has shown that we need explicit pro-whites in Congress now more than ever, and not the usual hints and dogwhistles the GOP engages in but full on white advocacy. This will never be feasible through the GOP since even a defense of basic values is enough for the Stupid Party leadership to condemn their own allies to placate their enemies. What is clear is that Lieu is the enemy, and high IQ immigrants like Asians are an even greater threat to whites than low IQ Immigrants like Hispanics.

  8. The fear of violence will get compliance in the moment

    What is life but a series of moments, though?

    Striking a child to correct his behavior is entirely natural and normal.

  9. @216
    O/T

    I don't feel safe in a country where anti-white racists like Ted Lieu have power over me.

    https://twitter.com/tedlieu/status/1383258681718964224

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Asian_Pacific_American_Caucus

    All we are asking for is the same right to engage in identity politics.

    And WE ARE NEVER ALLOWED TO HAVE ANYTHING.

    I hate this country.

    Replies: @Pop Warner, @Kent Nationalist

    If they were serious about defending the interests of white people, they would have an actual ‘White Caucus’ instead of all this nonsense.

    But they are all Jewish puppets, so of course they would never do that.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Kent Nationalist

    In 2019, 29 members of Congress were born outside the US. They were all Democrats.

  10. Surely the people likely to be opposed to smacking their children are those whose children are least likely to need to be smacked anwyay

  11. Abolish government for liberty.

  12. Surely the people likely to be opposed to smacking their children are those whose children are least likely to need to be smacked anyway.

    I believe that the blogger and audience got my point last time, so I don’t want to rub it in. Moreover, AE makes a reasonable (though in my strong opinion hardly dispositive) point regarding the limited degree to which a good hard spanking elicits the desired behavior, anyway. I’ve already pointed out that for the family in the grips of an actual hellion, it may not be a mere abstract matter for leisurely, reasoned analysis and debate such as carried forth in this comment column, but rather a desperate matter of finding a way, any way, to get through this week without the hellion’s hurling a soup can at his baby brother. As for the rest, I’ve already said it and will let it be.

    However, you are exactly right, Kent. Daniel is, too. This is why busybodies need to mind their own families.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @V. K. Ovelund


    Moreover, AE makes a reasonable (though in my strong opinion hardly dispositive) point regarding the limited degree to which a good hard spanking elicits the desired behavior, anyway.
     
    Spanking can be effective in either of two ways. It may secure compliance in the immediate future, or correct problem behaviors in the long term. My impression is that people who say it doesn't work mean that it doesn't work long term. That may or may not be true, but in any case, that is not the parent's problem (or them siblings' for that matter). The question is not to spank or not to spank. The question is whether a child is entitled to make an entire family miserable by their disobedience in the here and now.

    If the playroom is a mess, and one child is refusing to help, then you have an obligation to at least try to get the child to do his share. Otherwise, your other children will resent it. You will never hear the end of how unfair it is that this brat (let's be honest, we're talking about the youngest, here) gets away with things your other children never got away with. You can ask your children to be gracious to their juniors, but you can only take that so far.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

  13. I’m convinced that one of the major problems of modern society is lack of discipline. Meanwhile, the modern state does not seem to value discipline, only compliance.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    @songbird

    Disciplined people are a threat. They can make plans, and choose the time of their retribution. They do not lash out, inviting the state's goons to control them.

    You bet they only value compliance.

  14. These girls have probably have been slapped around by their parents (ie single moms) occasionally, but the real problem is that what they did isn’t really viewed as truly bad behavior by the people that raised them and their community.

    I have personally seen/heard this from my former neighbors in DC whenever one of the neighborhood kids broke the law by stealing, assaulting, etc. It’s sort of a shrug and “young people” from 80% of the people in the hood, rather than a sense of shame and desire to let that be known. The hood mentality/culture is just completely different from most of the rest of America.

  15. @Kent Nationalist
    @216

    If they were serious about defending the interests of white people, they would have an actual 'White Caucus' instead of all this nonsense.

    But they are all Jewish puppets, so of course they would never do that.

    Replies: @songbird

    In 2019, 29 members of Congress were born outside the US. They were all Democrats.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
  16. Would those two black girls have killed that Uber Eats driver in DC, if they attended an all girls school where nuns used the yardstick to dole out punishment?

    Such a school would have also:
    • Limited “Free Time” and Social Media availability leading to misbehaviour.
    • Imposed physical chores like cleaning & cleaning.
    • Separated the troublemakers so they could not engage in mutual misconduct.

    So, “Yes” they would almost certainly be better off if they had been disciplined.
    ____

    In many ways the argument between “spank” and “no spank” is a distraction from more important issues. All communities have become worse since:

    • God has been pushed out of Public Schools and the Public Square.
    • The rise in out of wedlock births has deprived children of having both mother & father in their lives.

    Marriages do fail. A stroke can claim a 100% healthy person at any time, so spouses periodically die. Having strong Judeo-Christian values in schools and the community provides support to families in these unfortunate circumstances.

    Another exacerbating factor is the power of Corporate Globalism. Immigration and “free but unfair trade” were intentionally used to undermine the earning power of U.S. workers. A consequence of artificially-low wage families needing two incomes to meet basic needs is, not having either parent available for their children for many hours a day.

    If the U.S. returned to traditional values, odds are the “spank” vs. “no spank” debate would be rendered mostly moot.

    PEACE 😇

     

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    @A123

    Thanks for the comic.

  17. “Spare the rod spoil the child” just didn’t come out of nowhere.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    @usNthem

    No it came from this:
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2005-03-13-0503120312-story.html


    That phrase actually comes from a narrative poem written in the 1600s titled "Hudibras" by Samuel Butler. Two of the main characters are planning on starting a love affair, and one of the characters asks the other to engage in sadomasochism and flagellation before she will go to bed with him. The actual quote is: "If matrimony and hanging go/By dest'ny, why not whipping too?/What med'cine else can cure the fits/Of lovers when they lose their wits?/Love is a boy, by poets styl'd/Then spare the rod, and spoil the child."

     

    So, is it sadomasochism you're wanting to engage in? That's where your pet phrase comes from.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @usNthem, @anon

  18. If you hit your kids, you’re black in spirit if not in skin color. Case closed. I look forward to arguing with the Pan-African coalition on Unz about this.

    • Replies: @Chinese cuck
    @Supply and Demand

    "I've engaged in activities in my life to lower the standard of living of all children in America, but if you've ever spanked your kid you are the immoral one"

    Hard to imagine why you found yourself divorced romantically and culturally.

    Replies: @Supply and Demand

  19. The degree of physical punishment in black homes is not to be compared to any other. It’s the black normal. To speak of spanking is to miss the point entirely; spanking is not their thing. In the case of ghetto mothers there is something worse than physical punishment and that is indulgence, or neglect. Take your pick.

    Orphanages get an entirely undeserved bad rap. Single mothers cannot be rapped enough.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @james wilson


    Orphanages get an entirely undeserved bad rap. Single mothers cannot be rapped enough.
     
    If you're saying the government should have taken me away from my mother and put me in an orphanage, f*** you!

    Replies: @james wilson

  20. Doesn’t surprise me that Asians are less supportive of physical punishment. Their shame-based tactics work far better than any amount of physical punishment would.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Hapalong Cassidy


    Doesn’t surprise me that Asians are less supportive of physical punishment. Their shame-based tactics work far better than any amount of physical punishment would.
     
    The tactics work better for Asian children. HBD.

    Similar tactics work fine for the average 100-IQ+ white child (I have too little close experience with sub-100-IQ white children to comment), but not all 100-IQ+ white children are average.

    It is not denied that the parents are often the problem—nor that it can be a mutual problem, inherited naturally by the child from the parent—but practically nothing can be done about either case. Except where divorced parents struggle over custody or where a stepmother or boyfriend or such is involved, state intervention practically never helps.

    There is no excuse for indulging one's own qualms regarding someone else's internal family relations by inflicting on that someone a state solution one already knows to be ineffective. Indeed, the state solution is usually worse than ineffective. Usually destructive. Here is the right rule, rather: mind your business. Some problems cannot be solved.

  21. @Supply and Demand
    If you hit your kids, you're black in spirit if not in skin color. Case closed. I look forward to arguing with the Pan-African coalition on Unz about this.

    Replies: @Chinese cuck

    “I’ve engaged in activities in my life to lower the standard of living of all children in America, but if you’ve ever spanked your kid you are the immoral one”

    Hard to imagine why you found yourself divorced romantically and culturally.

    • Replies: @Supply and Demand
    @Chinese cuck

    I’m happily married, Mr. Cuck.

  22. There is a useful short video by a parent here:

    https://ogdaa.blogspot.com/2021/04/sunday-video-2_01180543565.html

    I cannot resolve the embed there to embed it correctly here. Sorry.

    PEACE 😇

  23. @songbird
    I'm convinced that one of the major problems of modern society is lack of discipline. Meanwhile, the modern state does not seem to value discipline, only compliance.

    Replies: @TomSchmidt

    Disciplined people are a threat. They can make plans, and choose the time of their retribution. They do not lash out, inviting the state’s goons to control them.

    You bet they only value compliance.

  24. @A123

    Would those two black girls have killed that Uber Eats driver in DC, if they attended an all girls school where nuns used the yardstick to dole out punishment?
     
    Such a school would have also:
    • Limited "Free Time" and Social Media availability leading to misbehaviour.
    • Imposed physical chores like cleaning & cleaning.
    • Separated the troublemakers so they could not engage in mutual misconduct.

    So, "Yes" they would almost certainly be better off if they had been disciplined.
    ____

    In many ways the argument between "spank" and "no spank" is a distraction from more important issues. All communities have become worse since:

    • God has been pushed out of Public Schools and the Public Square.
    • The rise in out of wedlock births has deprived children of having both mother & father in their lives.

    Marriages do fail. A stroke can claim a 100% healthy person at any time, so spouses periodically die. Having strong Judeo-Christian values in schools and the community provides support to families in these unfortunate circumstances.

    Another exacerbating factor is the power of Corporate Globalism. Immigration and "free but unfair trade" were intentionally used to undermine the earning power of U.S. workers. A consequence of artificially-low wage families needing two incomes to meet basic needs is, not having either parent available for their children for many hours a day.

    If the U.S. returned to traditional values, odds are the "spank" vs. "no spank" debate would be rendered mostly moot.

    PEACE 😇

     
    https://i2.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2021/04/IMG_3273.jpg

    Replies: @TomSchmidt

    Thanks for the comic.

  25. @Hapalong Cassidy
    Doesn’t surprise me that Asians are less supportive of physical punishment. Their shame-based tactics work far better than any amount of physical punishment would.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    Doesn’t surprise me that Asians are less supportive of physical punishment. Their shame-based tactics work far better than any amount of physical punishment would.

    The tactics work better for Asian children. HBD.

    Similar tactics work fine for the average 100-IQ+ white child (I have too little close experience with sub-100-IQ white children to comment), but not all 100-IQ+ white children are average.

    It is not denied that the parents are often the problem—nor that it can be a mutual problem, inherited naturally by the child from the parent—but practically nothing can be done about either case. Except where divorced parents struggle over custody or where a stepmother or boyfriend or such is involved, state intervention practically never helps.

    There is no excuse for indulging one’s own qualms regarding someone else’s internal family relations by inflicting on that someone a state solution one already knows to be ineffective. Indeed, the state solution is usually worse than ineffective. Usually destructive. Here is the right rule, rather: mind your business. Some problems cannot be solved.

  26. @usNthem
    “Spare the rod spoil the child” just didn’t come out of nowhere.

    Replies: @TomSchmidt

    No it came from this:
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2005-03-13-0503120312-story.html

    That phrase actually comes from a narrative poem written in the 1600s titled “Hudibras” by Samuel Butler. Two of the main characters are planning on starting a love affair, and one of the characters asks the other to engage in sadomasochism and flagellation before she will go to bed with him. The actual quote is: “If matrimony and hanging go/By dest’ny, why not whipping too?/What med’cine else can cure the fits/Of lovers when they lose their wits?/Love is a boy, by poets styl’d/Then spare the rod, and spoil the child.”

    So, is it sadomasochism you’re wanting to engage in? That’s where your pet phrase comes from.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @TomSchmidt

    No idiot, it comes from the Bible and is also found in Proverbs 23:


    Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.
     
    Audacious Epigone is withholding the publication of pro-child abuse comments, and needs to have his moderating powers taken away from him. He has a proven track record of taking days to approve comments that he disagrees with. Such dishonourable conduct should not be allowed. He clearly wasn't abused enough as a child, because he has absolutely zero honour...

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @TomSchmidt

    , @usNthem
    @TomSchmidt

    Not my pet phrase. A well known adage that’s been around a hundred years, if not longer. Rather curious that it supposedly comes from a centuries old poem the vast majority of people have probably never heard of.

    Replies: @TomSchmidt

    , @anon
    @TomSchmidt

    Lol, that social worker is ignorant, that isn't much of a surprise, though. She'd probably never heard of the English Civil war, had no idea who the Cavaliers and Roundheads were, etc. and so forth. But she had an agenda and obviously skimmed some internet source just to give her a talking point. Pretty much the same as many commenters here at unz.com, and especially on Epigone's sub-part.

    Attention, readers: Hudibras is a satire. It has a lot to do with English culture & politics around the time of the restoration of Charles II, in the 1660's. Voltaire liked it. Pepys didn't.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Hudibras

    PS: The passage in question is more complicated than some imaginary S&M scene. Although I can see how a simpleton would read it that way...

  27. Anonymous[181] • Disclaimer says:
    @TomSchmidt
    @usNthem

    No it came from this:
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2005-03-13-0503120312-story.html


    That phrase actually comes from a narrative poem written in the 1600s titled "Hudibras" by Samuel Butler. Two of the main characters are planning on starting a love affair, and one of the characters asks the other to engage in sadomasochism and flagellation before she will go to bed with him. The actual quote is: "If matrimony and hanging go/By dest'ny, why not whipping too?/What med'cine else can cure the fits/Of lovers when they lose their wits?/Love is a boy, by poets styl'd/Then spare the rod, and spoil the child."

     

    So, is it sadomasochism you're wanting to engage in? That's where your pet phrase comes from.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @usNthem, @anon

    No idiot, it comes from the Bible and is also found in Proverbs 23:

    Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

    Audacious Epigone is withholding the publication of pro-child abuse comments, and needs to have his moderating powers taken away from him. He has a proven track record of taking days to approve comments that he disagrees with. Such dishonourable conduct should not be allowed. He clearly wasn’t abused enough as a child, because he has absolutely zero honour…

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Anonymous

    I should know better than to engage with an @Anonymous, but apparently don't.


    No idiot.
     
    @TomSchmidt is a perfectly reasonable, polite, decent fellow. He merely disagrees with you and me. That happens.

    Audacious Epigone is withholding the publication of pro-child abuse comments, and needs to have his moderating powers taken away from him. He has a proven track record of taking days to approve comments that he disagrees with. Such dishonourable conduct should not be allowed. He clearly wasn’t abused enough as a child, because he has absolutely zero honour….
     
    Come. Really?

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    , @TomSchmidt
    @Anonymous

    Proverbs 23:9 says: "Do not speak to fools, for they will scorn your prudent words." As you consider me an idiot, perhaps you've picked and chosen your proverbial "wisdom?" I'm also reminded from Proverbs that "The lips of the godly speak helpful words, but the mouth of the wicked speaks perverse words."

    "it comes from the Bible"
    Well, no it doesn't since Proverbs was either originally in Hebrew or Greek, and the phrase I cited comes from a poem advocating for S&M, and written in English. You got the original Hebrew, which I cannot read, or the Greek, which I might be OK with? Or even that exact phrase in English? Or are you secretly into S&M and willing to abuse scripture to engage in it?

    He has a proven track record of taking days to approve comments that he disagrees with. Such dishonourable conduct should not be allowed.
    Do not withhold thy blog from us, O Anon: that we may see that you strike not the comments therein of the wastrels who agree not with thy thoughts.

    He clearly wasn’t abused enough as a child, because he has absolutely zero honour…
    Hmmm.... let's see. Not based in the Hebrew or translated bible, but:
    "It takes one to know one" or "the pot calling the kettle black" might do here, except that you're just an anonymous internet maggot and AE has put himself out there. It it weren't a sin, I'd look forward to your eventual move into Sheol, you pathetic, cringing little milksop.

  28. @TomSchmidt
    @usNthem

    No it came from this:
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2005-03-13-0503120312-story.html


    That phrase actually comes from a narrative poem written in the 1600s titled "Hudibras" by Samuel Butler. Two of the main characters are planning on starting a love affair, and one of the characters asks the other to engage in sadomasochism and flagellation before she will go to bed with him. The actual quote is: "If matrimony and hanging go/By dest'ny, why not whipping too?/What med'cine else can cure the fits/Of lovers when they lose their wits?/Love is a boy, by poets styl'd/Then spare the rod, and spoil the child."

     

    So, is it sadomasochism you're wanting to engage in? That's where your pet phrase comes from.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @usNthem, @anon

    Not my pet phrase. A well known adage that’s been around a hundred years, if not longer. Rather curious that it supposedly comes from a centuries old poem the vast majority of people have probably never heard of.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    @usNthem

    It's funny how a phrase can catch on. One of my favorite quotes about the Bard is that he really wasn't a very good writer: he just took a bunch of things people said all the time and wrote them down in one place.

    Now you know: the literal phrasing you used was in a poem as prelude to S&M.

  29. Physical punishment is temporary, psychological punishment is forever.

    On the other hand, for many that won’t work either. I know from my own experience – all the discipline, both physical and psychical (like shaming etc etc) didn’t work, and just made me sneakier instead to avoid the annoyance of dealing with that.

    For such cases, teaching works best. Make such children learn that it’s simply not profitable to do such shit

  30. @Chinese cuck
    @Supply and Demand

    "I've engaged in activities in my life to lower the standard of living of all children in America, but if you've ever spanked your kid you are the immoral one"

    Hard to imagine why you found yourself divorced romantically and culturally.

    Replies: @Supply and Demand

    I’m happily married, Mr. Cuck.

  31. @Anonymous
    @TomSchmidt

    No idiot, it comes from the Bible and is also found in Proverbs 23:


    Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.
     
    Audacious Epigone is withholding the publication of pro-child abuse comments, and needs to have his moderating powers taken away from him. He has a proven track record of taking days to approve comments that he disagrees with. Such dishonourable conduct should not be allowed. He clearly wasn't abused enough as a child, because he has absolutely zero honour...

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @TomSchmidt

    I should know better than to engage with an , but apparently don’t.

    No idiot.

    is a perfectly reasonable, polite, decent fellow. He merely disagrees with you and me. That happens.

    Audacious Epigone is withholding the publication of pro-child abuse comments, and needs to have his moderating powers taken away from him. He has a proven track record of taking days to approve comments that he disagrees with. Such dishonourable conduct should not be allowed. He clearly wasn’t abused enough as a child, because he has absolutely zero honour….

    Come. Really?

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @V. K. Ovelund

    No, not really.

  32. Growing up, my parents occasionally had a couple and their male child over for dinner or just to socialize. That child was different to every other kid I knew at the time. He was just weird.

    There were times when the kids parents would have to admonish him to behave and a few times that led to the father smacking the kid because verbal advice from minutes ago wasn’t heeded. I remember distinctly one time where the father really laced into the kid with a serious beating and during the entire time the kid laughed out loud. I mean laughed so hard you might think he was reacting to the best joke he’d ever heard, and this during a serious spanking by the father.

    The boy was normal most of the time, but then it was like a switch got flipped and he’d act up. Some people are just different somehow. You can’t count on them being rational or reasonable. The best you can do is avoid them.

  33. @usNthem
    @TomSchmidt

    Not my pet phrase. A well known adage that’s been around a hundred years, if not longer. Rather curious that it supposedly comes from a centuries old poem the vast majority of people have probably never heard of.

    Replies: @TomSchmidt

    It’s funny how a phrase can catch on. One of my favorite quotes about the Bard is that he really wasn’t a very good writer: he just took a bunch of things people said all the time and wrote them down in one place.

    Now you know: the literal phrasing you used was in a poem as prelude to S&M.

  34. @Anonymous
    @TomSchmidt

    No idiot, it comes from the Bible and is also found in Proverbs 23:


    Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.
     
    Audacious Epigone is withholding the publication of pro-child abuse comments, and needs to have his moderating powers taken away from him. He has a proven track record of taking days to approve comments that he disagrees with. Such dishonourable conduct should not be allowed. He clearly wasn't abused enough as a child, because he has absolutely zero honour...

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @TomSchmidt

    Proverbs 23:9 says: “Do not speak to fools, for they will scorn your prudent words.” As you consider me an idiot, perhaps you’ve picked and chosen your proverbial “wisdom?” I’m also reminded from Proverbs that “The lips of the godly speak helpful words, but the mouth of the wicked speaks perverse words.”

    “it comes from the Bible”
    Well, no it doesn’t since Proverbs was either originally in Hebrew or Greek, and the phrase I cited comes from a poem advocating for S&M, and written in English. You got the original Hebrew, which I cannot read, or the Greek, which I might be OK with? Or even that exact phrase in English? Or are you secretly into S&M and willing to abuse scripture to engage in it?

    He has a proven track record of taking days to approve comments that he disagrees with. Such dishonourable conduct should not be allowed.
    Do not withhold thy blog from us, O Anon: that we may see that you strike not the comments therein of the wastrels who agree not with thy thoughts.

    He clearly wasn’t abused enough as a child, because he has absolutely zero honour…
    Hmmm…. let’s see. Not based in the Hebrew or translated bible, but:
    “It takes one to know one” or “the pot calling the kettle black” might do here, except that you’re just an anonymous internet maggot and AE has put himself out there. It it weren’t a sin, I’d look forward to your eventual move into Sheol, you pathetic, cringing little milksop.

  35. That may or may not be. But as mentioned, it’s a well known adage that everyone has heard of and knows what it means: discipline. Whether one chooses to interpret and apply it literally or figuratively is on them.

  36. One problem with the idea some children are so unruly or sociopathic that physical punishment is necessary is the presumption that administering it leads to a better outcome than not doing so does.

    It’s not the children. It’s the parents.

    The best parenting advice is to be found in dog-training books, especially those of Barbara Woodhouse and her followers—to be clear, all the books in this genre are extremely opposed to beating dogs. The most important thing in the relationship of trainer to dog is that the dog has to see the trainer as the alpha. The various tricks Woodhouse and followers suggest to establish this dominance without violence (notice, dogs themselves do use violence and its threat to establish dominance) involve outsmarting the dog in one way or another.

    So, establishing and maintaining dominance without violence is an IQ-loaded task—it depends on out-smarting your inferior. It also usually involves having more patience than your inferior or at least having quite a bit of patience. This gets harder the smarter your inferior is—it is definitely harder with children than with dogs. e.g.

    So, this sentiment that spanking is wrong is just one more expression of hatred from our high-IQ overlords to their low-IQ inferiors. Dummies can’t control their kids without violence. But you, dear reader, don’t advocate violence against children, do you? You’re not . . . a dummy?

    Also relevant, spanking is uncommon among hunter-gatherers and common among settled agriculturalists and industrialists. The things kids find fun and naturally want to do make them good hunter-gatherers. Spanking is a cultural innovation used to civilize children. Though, maybe hypnotizing them with cell phones is good substitute nowadays.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  37. @james wilson
    The degree of physical punishment in black homes is not to be compared to any other. It's the black normal. To speak of spanking is to miss the point entirely; spanking is not their thing. In the case of ghetto mothers there is something worse than physical punishment and that is indulgence, or neglect. Take your pick.

    Orphanages get an entirely undeserved bad rap. Single mothers cannot be rapped enough.

    Replies: @Rosie

    Orphanages get an entirely undeserved bad rap. Single mothers cannot be rapped enough.

    If you’re saying the government should have taken me away from my mother and put me in an orphanage, f*** you!

    • LOL: sher singh
    • Replies: @james wilson
    @Rosie

    I'm saying that if you are the typical future ghetto single mother she is 15 and bf is 25, aka statuatory rape in other cultures, and yes, if you are not supported entirely by family you have no business whatever raising a child on my dime without my consent.

  38. @V. K. Ovelund

    Surely the people likely to be opposed to smacking their children are those whose children are least likely to need to be smacked anyway.
     
    I believe that the blogger and audience got my point last time, so I don't want to rub it in. Moreover, AE makes a reasonable (though in my strong opinion hardly dispositive) point regarding the limited degree to which a good hard spanking elicits the desired behavior, anyway. I've already pointed out that for the family in the grips of an actual hellion, it may not be a mere abstract matter for leisurely, reasoned analysis and debate such as carried forth in this comment column, but rather a desperate matter of finding a way, any way, to get through this week without the hellion's hurling a soup can at his baby brother. As for the rest, I've already said it and will let it be.

    However, you are exactly right, Kent. Daniel is, too. This is why busybodies need to mind their own families.

    Replies: @Rosie

    Moreover, AE makes a reasonable (though in my strong opinion hardly dispositive) point regarding the limited degree to which a good hard spanking elicits the desired behavior, anyway.

    Spanking can be effective in either of two ways. It may secure compliance in the immediate future, or correct problem behaviors in the long term. My impression is that people who say it doesn’t work mean that it doesn’t work long term. That may or may not be true, but in any case, that is not the parent’s problem (or them siblings’ for that matter). The question is not to spank or not to spank. The question is whether a child is entitled to make an entire family miserable by their disobedience in the here and now.

    If the playroom is a mess, and one child is refusing to help, then you have an obligation to at least try to get the child to do his share. Otherwise, your other children will resent it. You will never hear the end of how unfair it is that this brat (let’s be honest, we’re talking about the youngest, here) gets away with things your other children never got away with. You can ask your children to be gracious to their juniors, but you can only take that so far.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Rosie

    Later, when it's time for dessert or to pick a movie to watch, the kid who didn't help gets no dessert and has no input. He made the decision not to pick up, now you're making the decision not to give him dessert or see a movie he wants to see. Next time it's time to pick up, gently remind him about last time. The challenge is to find something the child would prefer to have and be spanked than to not be spanked and not have, and then ensure he does not have it if he behaves poorly.

  39. @Irish Paleo
    All civilised human relationships are policed at their vital peripheries by the threat of violence.

    You enter into a contract with me. If you breach it, I’ll sue you. If you don’t settle the claim, we go to Court. If we go to Court, a judge will order you to compensate me. If you refuse to compensate me, the judge will authors a bailiff or sheriff to seize your property. Resisting the seizure is a crime. Resist arrest and you can be physically restrained. Attempt to abscond and you are denied bail. Be convicted and you can be jailed or fined. Fail to pay the fine and a whole new enforcement mechanism kicks in.

    Come to my house and act the dick. I’ll ask you to leave. You refuse to leave, I call the police. If you still refuse to leave, the police can drag you out.

    In each case, there is a chain of cause and effect which, sooner or later, leads to violence. The actual resort to violence is vanishingly rare, in some cases, so much so that nobody even things about it as an operational variable in the situation.

    But imagine completely removing the threat of violence. It’s like knocking over the first domino. Quickly and inexorably, the question of “What if I don’t feel like it?” is met with the answer of “Er, then I’ll have no choice but to ask you nicely again.”

    With children, we have two key distinctions:

    1. Children can’t be sued. That Peripheral threat of violence is gone.

    2. Children can’t generally be held criminally responsible - and where they can, we seek to avoid that step at all costs.

    There is thus no implicit threat of violence policing the relationship. Into this vacuum traditionally came actual violence: “Don’t do as I tell you and you get a wallop!”

    Take that threat away and what’s left: “Do as I say or I’ll be forced to reason with you!” And yes, I know that there are intermediate punishments like docking toys and pocket money but they don’t always work, which is why we had corporal punishment in the first place.

    Not threatening a child with corporal punishment effectively turns him into the equivalent of a mentally retarded adult with irreversible diplomatic immunity - I.e. a person lacking the ability to understand the consequences of his actions but with a special license to act with impunity.

    And so humanity’s story ends. The children are in power. The parents are in thrall.

    Replies: @Truth, @Audacious Epigone

    Come to my house and act the dick. I’ll ask you to leave. You refuse to leave, I call the police. If you still refuse to leave, the police can drag you out.

    Bro, I never thought that I would say this, but I am really starting to miss the old-fashioned Keyboard Commando.

  40. anon[347] • Disclaimer says:
    @TomSchmidt
    @usNthem

    No it came from this:
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2005-03-13-0503120312-story.html


    That phrase actually comes from a narrative poem written in the 1600s titled "Hudibras" by Samuel Butler. Two of the main characters are planning on starting a love affair, and one of the characters asks the other to engage in sadomasochism and flagellation before she will go to bed with him. The actual quote is: "If matrimony and hanging go/By dest'ny, why not whipping too?/What med'cine else can cure the fits/Of lovers when they lose their wits?/Love is a boy, by poets styl'd/Then spare the rod, and spoil the child."

     

    So, is it sadomasochism you're wanting to engage in? That's where your pet phrase comes from.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @usNthem, @anon

    Lol, that social worker is ignorant, that isn’t much of a surprise, though. She’d probably never heard of the English Civil war, had no idea who the Cavaliers and Roundheads were, etc. and so forth. But she had an agenda and obviously skimmed some internet source just to give her a talking point. Pretty much the same as many commenters here at unz.com, and especially on Epigone’s sub-part.

    Attention, readers: Hudibras is a satire. It has a lot to do with English culture & politics around the time of the restoration of Charles II, in the 1660’s. Voltaire liked it. Pepys didn’t.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Hudibras

    PS: The passage in question is more complicated than some imaginary S&M scene. Although I can see how a simpleton would read it that way…

  41. @Irish Paleo
    All civilised human relationships are policed at their vital peripheries by the threat of violence.

    You enter into a contract with me. If you breach it, I’ll sue you. If you don’t settle the claim, we go to Court. If we go to Court, a judge will order you to compensate me. If you refuse to compensate me, the judge will authors a bailiff or sheriff to seize your property. Resisting the seizure is a crime. Resist arrest and you can be physically restrained. Attempt to abscond and you are denied bail. Be convicted and you can be jailed or fined. Fail to pay the fine and a whole new enforcement mechanism kicks in.

    Come to my house and act the dick. I’ll ask you to leave. You refuse to leave, I call the police. If you still refuse to leave, the police can drag you out.

    In each case, there is a chain of cause and effect which, sooner or later, leads to violence. The actual resort to violence is vanishingly rare, in some cases, so much so that nobody even things about it as an operational variable in the situation.

    But imagine completely removing the threat of violence. It’s like knocking over the first domino. Quickly and inexorably, the question of “What if I don’t feel like it?” is met with the answer of “Er, then I’ll have no choice but to ask you nicely again.”

    With children, we have two key distinctions:

    1. Children can’t be sued. That Peripheral threat of violence is gone.

    2. Children can’t generally be held criminally responsible - and where they can, we seek to avoid that step at all costs.

    There is thus no implicit threat of violence policing the relationship. Into this vacuum traditionally came actual violence: “Don’t do as I tell you and you get a wallop!”

    Take that threat away and what’s left: “Do as I say or I’ll be forced to reason with you!” And yes, I know that there are intermediate punishments like docking toys and pocket money but they don’t always work, which is why we had corporal punishment in the first place.

    Not threatening a child with corporal punishment effectively turns him into the equivalent of a mentally retarded adult with irreversible diplomatic immunity - I.e. a person lacking the ability to understand the consequences of his actions but with a special license to act with impunity.

    And so humanity’s story ends. The children are in power. The parents are in thrall.

    Replies: @Truth, @Audacious Epigone

    Most adults’ behavior is not motivated by a fear of physical violence, especially now. No argument that utilizing it as a last resort is better than employing it as a regular measure of discipline though.

  42. @TomSchmidt
    Now add class to the mix, too.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Necessary to spank by class:

    Lower — 76%
    Working — 77%
    Middle — 69%
    Upper — 63%

  43. So, upper class Jews least likely to spank. Working class blacks most likely to spank?

    I’m guessing the Tiger Mom, an Asian Yale Law School Professor married to a Jew, did not spank her kids.

  44. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Anonymous

    I should know better than to engage with an @Anonymous, but apparently don't.


    No idiot.
     
    @TomSchmidt is a perfectly reasonable, polite, decent fellow. He merely disagrees with you and me. That happens.

    Audacious Epigone is withholding the publication of pro-child abuse comments, and needs to have his moderating powers taken away from him. He has a proven track record of taking days to approve comments that he disagrees with. Such dishonourable conduct should not be allowed. He clearly wasn’t abused enough as a child, because he has absolutely zero honour….
     
    Come. Really?

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    No, not really.

  45. @Rosie
    @V. K. Ovelund


    Moreover, AE makes a reasonable (though in my strong opinion hardly dispositive) point regarding the limited degree to which a good hard spanking elicits the desired behavior, anyway.
     
    Spanking can be effective in either of two ways. It may secure compliance in the immediate future, or correct problem behaviors in the long term. My impression is that people who say it doesn't work mean that it doesn't work long term. That may or may not be true, but in any case, that is not the parent's problem (or them siblings' for that matter). The question is not to spank or not to spank. The question is whether a child is entitled to make an entire family miserable by their disobedience in the here and now.

    If the playroom is a mess, and one child is refusing to help, then you have an obligation to at least try to get the child to do his share. Otherwise, your other children will resent it. You will never hear the end of how unfair it is that this brat (let's be honest, we're talking about the youngest, here) gets away with things your other children never got away with. You can ask your children to be gracious to their juniors, but you can only take that so far.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Later, when it’s time for dessert or to pick a movie to watch, the kid who didn’t help gets no dessert and has no input. He made the decision not to pick up, now you’re making the decision not to give him dessert or see a movie he wants to see. Next time it’s time to pick up, gently remind him about last time. The challenge is to find something the child would prefer to have and be spanked than to not be spanked and not have, and then ensure he does not have it if he behaves poorly.

  46. @Rosie
    @james wilson


    Orphanages get an entirely undeserved bad rap. Single mothers cannot be rapped enough.
     
    If you're saying the government should have taken me away from my mother and put me in an orphanage, f*** you!

    Replies: @james wilson

    I’m saying that if you are the typical future ghetto single mother she is 15 and bf is 25, aka statuatory rape in other cultures, and yes, if you are not supported entirely by family you have no business whatever raising a child on my dime without my consent.

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Audacious Epigone Comments via RSS