RSS
Talha, in reaction to changes over time among whites and by partisan affiliation for the favoring of close relatives marrying whites:
How do other ethnicities/races compare? 🤔
That would show whether whites are less or more in-group conscious vis-a-vis other folks.
The sample sizes are too small to break out non-white groups by year, so the following graph shows the percentages of people who favor and who oppose a close relative marrying a member of the respondent’s own race from 2012 through 2018 (note the restricted y-axis range, starting at 40% and ending at 80%):
Thus 51.0% of whites favor a close relative marrying a white person, 2.4% oppose, and the residual 46.6% (not shown) neither favor nor oppose it; 58.4% of blacks favor a close relative marrying a black person, 2.5% oppose, etc.
GSS variables used: MARWHT(1-2)(3-5), MARBLK(1-2)(3-5), MARHISP(1-2)(3-5), MARASIAN(1-2)(3-5), RACECEN1(1)(2)(4-10), HISPANIC(1)(2-50), YEAR(2012-2018)
English
Arabic
Chinese (Simplified)
Dutch
French
German
Hebrew
Hindi
Italian
Persian
Portuguese
Russian
Spanish
Swedish
Wow – Asians seem to be the outliers here…interesting – didn’t expect that. For some reason, I expected Hispanics/Latinos to be the outliers. I grew up in a heavy Latino town and they used to generally stick to their own as far as boyfriend/girlfriend was concerned.
Peace.
Note: When this happens…
“Thus 51.0% of whites favor a close relative marrying a…close relative.”
We’ll get those white clans and tribes back!
Go to the 1:30 mark of the insightful video.
https://youtu.be/yFnpL42KqUEReplies: @GodHelpUs
Some things to remember: Asians aren't broken out by sub-race, e.g. Indian, Chinese, etc., and this survey is USA only.
Also, Blacks are the most race-faithful. Which doesn't surprise, except in that the number isn't higher.Replies: @Audacious Epigone
Asians have White Fever.
Chart means nothing to me if you don’t break samples down by sex ratio. A much higher percentage of black females could raise that figure up quite a bit. Lower rates of Asian male respondents (virtually guaranteed just based off the fact that there are less Asian males) could drive the Asian figure down.
In any case, saying “most” prefer keeping it in their own race is stretching it. It’s more like half. In the groups that actually matter because they are young, growing and not shrinking (Hispanics, Other and Asians), less than half favor same race relationships (incest). Few people were going to mix with blacks anyway.
What are the figures for Jews?
Peace.
Note: When this happens...
"Thus 51.0% of whites favor a close relative marrying a...close relative."
We'll get those white clans and tribes back!Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Ash Williams, @Twinkie
Correction East Asian Women are the Outliers here. Every other demographic is in general consensus.
Go to the 1:30 mark of the insightful video.
Asian men in the West are considered bottom tier betas by all Western women, even Westernized Asian women! They are the most feminized males, so they face the stiffest competition. Likewise Westernized African women are considered bottom tier even by African men in the West. They are the most masculine women, and poor marriage prospects compared to white and Asian women.
The alliance between gender and racial minoritarianism is fracturing. As the straight white male recedes from view, the minorities begin to turn on each other.
An Australian Asian man calling Australian Asian women racist against Asians because they won't date Asians is the perfect expression of the chaos that social constructivism has brought to the modern Western world.Replies: @Toronto Russian
The question in the graph title is clear enough, A.E., but that “in-house” expression makes me wonder if you’re referring to that “incest is best, forget the rest” crowd. I mean, in house?
1st-cousin marriage is somewhere in between. I wonder what our gold-star commenter has to say about that, because it IS a big thing in the Moslem world. Perhaps that’s off the subject, but not totally, and I really would like to know what Talha thinks about this subject.
My brother and I have eight kids between the two of us (mashaAllah) and I will be having a talk with him about planning to arrange a couple of marriages between our grandchildren (so second cousins); we’ll see if he’s game.
Peace.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @res
1st-cousin marriage is somewhere in between. I wonder what our gold-star commenter has to say about that, because it IS a big thing in the Moslem world. Perhaps that's off the subject, but not totally, and I really would like to know what Talha thinks about this subject.Replies: @Talha
I don’t really see a problem with 1st cousin marriage if kept to a ratio of about 10-15% of all marriages. Especially in places where clans and tribes are around and would like to keep their cohesion. More than that tends to bring in associated problems.
My brother and I have eight kids between the two of us (mashaAllah) and I will be having a talk with him about planning to arrange a couple of marriages between our grandchildren (so second cousins); we’ll see if he’s game.
Peace.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/101053950401600204
They show (Table 1) about a 1/3 SD (5.7 points) decrease in full scale IQ for the children of second cousins relative to children with unrelated parents. The children of first cousins are another 6.5 IQ points worse.
Presumably it is not just IQ that is affected.
A more recent study with full text: Estimating the Inbreeding Depression on Cognitive Behavior: A Population Based Study of Child Cohort
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0109585
They include more detail, but don't state the conclusion as directly. Figures 5 and 6 give a pretty good idea of the effect size though.
I am unsure if there is any selection bias related to the intelligence of people who choose to inbreed (or not) at different levels.Replies: @Talha, @RadicalCenter
My brother and I have eight kids between the two of us (mashaAllah) and I will be having a talk with him about planning to arrange a couple of marriages between our grandchildren (so second cousins); we’ll see if he’s game.
Peace.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @res
The whole clan/tribal aspect is positively un-American, so I hope you are referring to back in the “old country”, but anyway, thanks for the reply. You just have to be careful, I guess. There are lots of genetically-caused problems with the Pakistanis in England, from what I’ve read.
Peace.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
Almost certainly more than half, these question being done in a face-to-face interview is a huge corruption of the data, I was amazed when I heard that’s how it’s conducted.
Moron. You may as well call sleeping with a human rather than a chimp incest. Or maybe a chimp is incest too, you’d better play it safe and go with a sheep. But then, even sheep are mammals…
So Backs are the most ethnocentric, Whites are second most ethnocentric. Meanwhile Asians are the least ethnocentric and Hispanics are second least ethnocentric.
Just goes to show that White supremacist alt-right types are wrong. Whites are not the least clannish. Not all Colored people are clannish – just some, like Blacks for instance.
Well, tribes and clans were deliberately eliminated in the West so that’s not a surprise. Since I married a white lady and my brother married a Memon, we’ve got fresh blood in the mix. A couple of pairings of grandkids should be fine, but I do thank you for the concern.
Peace.
Peacetears, unfortunately, I think is the way it's going to end up.Replies: @TalhaThe question posed is idiotic. “Favor” and “oppose” as to marrying within one’s own race is about as stupid as a poll can get. I’m surprised the “oppose” is as high as 2.5% for any race. This is a clear illustration why polls so seldom have any meaning whatever.
A poll asking “okay with” or “oppose” regarding marrying outside one’s race might have some meaning.
Peace.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
Well, I’m getting more off-topic, but since this is in your wheelhouse, and you have that gold star, let me address this:
Well, that was the plan with assimilation… about till 50 years back. Now, multiculturalism is the 1/2-century-long experiment we have been undergoing here in the US (with no control group, unfortunately).
In “Importing a civil war, in Sweden”, Peak Stupidity wrote about the importation of rival clans or tribes to once-lovely Sweden:
It’s not just Sweden, though, Talha. America has been performing the same acts of stupidity. I hope your people can just be left alone by some of “your” other people that didn’t get along with y’all in the old country. Either way, we had our own ethnic problems from one “problematic” group even in the 1960s. We don’t need this shit.
Like I said, OT, sorry.
.
Peacetears, unfortunately, I think is the way it’s going to end up."Among the anthropologically defined 356 contemporary societies of Euro-Asia and Africa, there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages;..."
https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/You cannot get rid of tribes in 50 years, this takes centuries of constant work.Yup - fairly stupid.Interestingly, in the US, we are simply too diverse and too small in numbers to be really infighting at an ethnic level. I rarely see that happening. I have seen legal conflicts between groups based on ideological/sectarian differences*.I certainly hope not, but one also has to be vigilant and prepare reasonably ahead of time.Peace.
*Had a great talk with one of my spiritual teachers last night. Looks like we are going to be coming out strong with our traditional Sufi teachings. I've been waiting for this. He and some of the other elders have come to the conclusion that we have tried to be less visible and less outward about our tradition in order to not cause conflict with the Salafi-Wahhabis, but that has given them way too much influence over the public narrative due to us keeping quiet - and they have completely screwed it up wherever they go and ended up causing trouble for everyone. High time for the push back to begin.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Tusk, @res
The fact that every human on Earth has an equivalent ancestral contribution of one great-great-great-great grandparent from long extinct species (Neanderthals, Denisovans, possibly others) indicates that when there were biologically compatible species on planet Earth, our ancestors did prefer to reproduce with them. You’re contradicted by the very blood that is flowing through your veins, boy. How does that even feel? How does somebody cope with that kind of psychological terrorism? My bet: you will ignore and try to forget.
Peacetears, unfortunately, I think is the way it's going to end up.Replies: @TalhaBro – this goes waaaay back. The Church went to war with the tribes of Europe, why do you think you guys don’t have the clans and tribes of yore? This is a very good start:
“Among the anthropologically defined 356 contemporary societies of Euro-Asia and Africa, there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages;…”
https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/
You cannot get rid of tribes in 50 years, this takes centuries of constant work.
Yup – fairly stupid.
Interestingly, in the US, we are simply too diverse and too small in numbers to be really infighting at an ethnic level. I rarely see that happening. I have seen legal conflicts between groups based on ideological/sectarian differences*.
I certainly hope not, but one also has to be vigilant and prepare reasonably ahead of time.
Peace.
*Had a great talk with one of my spiritual teachers last night. Looks like we are going to be coming out strong with our traditional Sufi teachings. I’ve been waiting for this. He and some of the other elders have come to the conclusion that we have tried to be less visible and less outward about our tradition in order to not cause conflict with the Salafi-Wahhabis, but that has given them way too much influence over the public narrative due to us keeping quiet – and they have completely screwed it up wherever they go and ended up causing trouble for everyone. High time for the push back to begin.
https://eppc.org/publications/i-and-my-brother-against-my-cousin/Replies: @Talha
"Among the anthropologically defined 356 contemporary societies of Euro-Asia and Africa, there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages;..."
https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/You cannot get rid of tribes in 50 years, this takes centuries of constant work.Yup - fairly stupid.Interestingly, in the US, we are simply too diverse and too small in numbers to be really infighting at an ethnic level. I rarely see that happening. I have seen legal conflicts between groups based on ideological/sectarian differences*.I certainly hope not, but one also has to be vigilant and prepare reasonably ahead of time.Peace.
*Had a great talk with one of my spiritual teachers last night. Looks like we are going to be coming out strong with our traditional Sufi teachings. I've been waiting for this. He and some of the other elders have come to the conclusion that we have tried to be less visible and less outward about our tradition in order to not cause conflict with the Salafi-Wahhabis, but that has given them way too much influence over the public narrative due to us keeping quiet - and they have completely screwed it up wherever they go and ended up causing trouble for everyone. High time for the push back to begin.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Tusk, @res
No, that’s not what I meant, Talha. I meant that after 40 years of pretty large-scale immigration into America by Eastern Europeans (Jewish, I guess, most), more Irish, and southern Italians, the 1924 immigration Act signed by Silent Cal was left pretty much alone (though many tried to to push for change) until the 1965 Act. That’s 41 years in which these not-so-awful-foreign, but still different, people could spread out into society more, and, to put it nicely, get a freakin’ clue. (It’s the “when in Rome” thing.)
Maybe you weren’t here, but I can tell you, no matter the turmoil of the 1960s and with the exception of blacks who just won’t get with it, Americans were Americans. That WAS the tribe in 1965, but even pretty much 1975, and one could stretch it to 1985, kinda’. Now, after 50 years of massive legal and illegal immigration, mostly of people VERY different from the old Americans, we are many tribes. “E. Unum Pluribus” ought to be written on the new cheap-ass pennies, dimes, and quarters, assuming I got the Latin correct (hell, nobody would know anyway, with our approach to Peak Stupidity).
*Who I always thought was Pakistani - no kidding! - I had no clue what Latinos were; I thought - brown guy = Pakistani. It didn't help that Erik Estrada looked quite a bit like one of my uncles who was also a Pakistani motorcycle patrol officer.Replies: @Talha, @Achmed E. Newman
(Actually, E ūnī multi)Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
Our duty is to keep the flame of Western civilization through whatever is ahead of us.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
The noun in the original motto is only implied; however, unum indicates it is of neuter gender.Replies: @Haruto Rat
E Plubius Muttis!
Ah OK – sorry about misinterpreting that.
Although, this may be a useful read:
Got it. Yeah, I could definitely see that. Though, I will say that (growing up as a little kid in Karachi), my favorite show was CHiPs. Which of course started a white guy and a Latino guy*.
I totally get why Americans from that age are like; “what the heck happened to that country I grew up in?”
Peace.
*Who I always thought was Pakistani – no kidding! – I had no clue what Latinos were; I thought – brown guy = Pakistani. It didn’t help that Erik Estrada looked quite a bit like one of my uncles who was also a Pakistani motorcycle patrol officer.
“Forbidden Relatives challenges the belief–widely held in the United States–that legislation against marriage between first cousins is based on a biological risk to offspring. In fact, its author maintains, the U.S. prohibition against such unions originated largely because of the belief that it would promote more rapid assimilation of immigrants.”
https://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/catalog/76rws4ss9780252065408.html
E ūnī plures.
(Actually, E ūnī multi)
*Who I always thought was Pakistani - no kidding! - I had no clue what Latinos were; I thought - brown guy = Pakistani. It didn't help that Erik Estrada looked quite a bit like one of my uncles who was also a Pakistani motorcycle patrol officer.Replies: @Talha, @Achmed E. Newman
Sorry – forgot the reference:
“Forbidden Relatives challenges the belief–widely held in the United States–that legislation against marriage between first cousins is based on a biological risk to offspring. In fact, its author maintains, the U.S. prohibition against such unions originated largely because of the belief that it would promote more rapid assimilation of immigrants.”
https://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/catalog/76rws4ss9780252065408.html
Go to the 1:30 mark of the insightful video.
https://youtu.be/yFnpL42KqUEReplies: @GodHelpUs
This video is a great example of the implosion of the Marxist diversity coalition that has begun in the past couple years in the West.
Asian men in the West are considered bottom tier betas by all Western women, even Westernized Asian women! They are the most feminized males, so they face the stiffest competition. Likewise Westernized African women are considered bottom tier even by African men in the West. They are the most masculine women, and poor marriage prospects compared to white and Asian women.
The alliance between gender and racial minoritarianism is fracturing. As the straight white male recedes from view, the minorities begin to turn on each other.
An Australian Asian man calling Australian Asian women racist against Asians because they won’t date Asians is the perfect expression of the chaos that social constructivism has brought to the modern Western world.
Asians with their bishonen aesthetics have been doing very well at charming girls worldwide, now that doramas and K-pop enjoy international popularity. BTS were the highlight of New Year 2020 Times Square concert for example.
https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.556657533.8564/flat,550x550,075,f.jpg
So the Asian type per se is not unattractive. The problem of Asian men is that, so to say, there's no middle ground - they either look very good like dorama actors, or... like old-timey "Jap" caricatures. As nutrition gets better and orthodontics more available, more boys grow up on the handsome side, but on the other hand rising obesity counteracts it. I'd say good hairstyles would benefit most of them - no need to go all BTS with unnatural colors, but hair should be a little grown out (traditional hairstyles in Asia were either long or shaved for a reason) and well cared for.Replies: @GodHelpUs
E Uno Plures. The motto for America before it descends into the valley of the shadow of death.
Our duty is to keep the flame of Western civilization through whatever is ahead of us.
Peace.
Note: When this happens...
"Thus 51.0% of whites favor a close relative marrying a...close relative."
We'll get those white clans and tribes back!Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Ash Williams, @Twinkie
I was also surprised. It seems the most self-hating race in America are Asians. Which is even crazier than white self-hate (or any self-hate).
Some things to remember: Asians aren’t broken out by sub-race, e.g. Indian, Chinese, etc., and this survey is USA only.
Also, Blacks are the most race-faithful. Which doesn’t surprise, except in that the number isn’t higher.
"Among the anthropologically defined 356 contemporary societies of Euro-Asia and Africa, there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages;..."
https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/You cannot get rid of tribes in 50 years, this takes centuries of constant work.Yup - fairly stupid.Interestingly, in the US, we are simply too diverse and too small in numbers to be really infighting at an ethnic level. I rarely see that happening. I have seen legal conflicts between groups based on ideological/sectarian differences*.I certainly hope not, but one also has to be vigilant and prepare reasonably ahead of time.Peace.
*Had a great talk with one of my spiritual teachers last night. Looks like we are going to be coming out strong with our traditional Sufi teachings. I've been waiting for this. He and some of the other elders have come to the conclusion that we have tried to be less visible and less outward about our tradition in order to not cause conflict with the Salafi-Wahhabis, but that has given them way too much influence over the public narrative due to us keeping quiet - and they have completely screwed it up wherever they go and ended up causing trouble for everyone. High time for the push back to begin.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Tusk, @res
OT question for you Talha: what are good, or your recommended, Sufi authors or works an interested person should read? I have read Ibn ‘Arabi and Mulla Sadra but it is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff in terms of what is good to read and what should be read.
My recommendation kind of depends on what you are looking for. Are you looking for a general overview of the subject? Or are you looking for the poetry or aphorisms of a particularly well-known Sufi teacher like Attar (ra) or Ibn Ata Illah (ra)? Or are you looking for a actual, pratical guide as to what the Sufi teachers taught their students and how they were trained (often these are in the form of correspondence through letters)? Or looking for a more academic work in as far as the whole development and history and what not?
I don't want to point you in a direction you are not interested in and waste your time.Tell me about it. Just full disclosure; if you are asking me, then you should expect stuff from Sufis that are known to be practitioners of Islam (often high-level Sufi-scholars*). I'm not really going to point you to some Deepak Chopra nonsense or some dude with a Persian name who claims he can fly or something.
A general good and reliable intro (but a horribly unattractive website) into various aspects of Sufism one could explore is Prof. Alan Godlas' site:
http://islam.uga.edu/Sufism.html
It's actually fairly decent if you can get past the fact that it probably hasn't been overhauled since the late 90's...at least it doesn't have a bunch of animated gifs.
Peace.
*Most people forget this, but Maulana Rumi (ra) was the Hanafi mufti of Konya - it's kind of amazing how he has been transformed into some sort of hippy.Replies: @Tusk
(Actually, E ūnī multi)Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
Thanks. Where were you in high school?
Our duty is to keep the flame of Western civilization through whatever is ahead of us.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
OK, you and Mr. Red Wings got to get your storius straight. (Believe it or not, I did take Latin, but it was pretty long ago.) Agreed on your last sentence.
*Who I always thought was Pakistani - no kidding! - I had no clue what Latinos were; I thought - brown guy = Pakistani. It didn't help that Erik Estrada looked quite a bit like one of my uncles who was also a Pakistani motorcycle patrol officer.Replies: @Talha, @Achmed E. Newman
Hell, I knew hardly any Chicanos (that was the term of use then) back then either, though I lived in neither Miami or California. That’s funny about your uncle!
Peace.
Wow – heavy stuff.
My recommendation kind of depends on what you are looking for. Are you looking for a general overview of the subject? Or are you looking for the poetry or aphorisms of a particularly well-known Sufi teacher like Attar (ra) or Ibn Ata Illah (ra)? Or are you looking for a actual, pratical guide as to what the Sufi teachers taught their students and how they were trained (often these are in the form of correspondence through letters)? Or looking for a more academic work in as far as the whole development and history and what not?
I don’t want to point you in a direction you are not interested in and waste your time.
Tell me about it. Just full disclosure; if you are asking me, then you should expect stuff from Sufis that are known to be practitioners of Islam (often high-level Sufi-scholars*). I’m not really going to point you to some Deepak Chopra nonsense or some dude with a Persian name who claims he can fly or something.
A general good and reliable intro (but a horribly unattractive website) into various aspects of Sufism one could explore is Prof. Alan Godlas’ site:
http://islam.uga.edu/Sufism.html
It’s actually fairly decent if you can get past the fact that it probably hasn’t been overhauled since the late 90’s…at least it doesn’t have a bunch of animated gifs.
Peace.
*Most people forget this, but Maulana Rumi (ra) was the Hanafi mufti of Konya – it’s kind of amazing how he has been transformed into some sort of hippy.
I will have a read of that site though, and since I've been around the internet long enough it is more nostalgic than outdated. Thanks for your comment and any further recommendations.Replies: @Talha
O/T
Driving the Speed Limit
Yeah man, we had Latino gangs and everything. Cholos…all that stuff. You didn’t mess with them – some of the brought knives to school, you just kind of stayed a nice distance. A bunch of them dumped me into a trash can once. I walked into the locker room and a group of them were just kind of looking at the trash can for some reason (judging it’s capacity, I guess) and they saw me come in – they all looked at me, and then just grabbed me and stuck me in. They were fairly cool about it though, they weren’t rough or anything and the trash can was empty. We all kind of just laughed about it (what else does one do in that kind of situation?).
Peace.
My recommendation kind of depends on what you are looking for. Are you looking for a general overview of the subject? Or are you looking for the poetry or aphorisms of a particularly well-known Sufi teacher like Attar (ra) or Ibn Ata Illah (ra)? Or are you looking for a actual, pratical guide as to what the Sufi teachers taught their students and how they were trained (often these are in the form of correspondence through letters)? Or looking for a more academic work in as far as the whole development and history and what not?
I don't want to point you in a direction you are not interested in and waste your time.Tell me about it. Just full disclosure; if you are asking me, then you should expect stuff from Sufis that are known to be practitioners of Islam (often high-level Sufi-scholars*). I'm not really going to point you to some Deepak Chopra nonsense or some dude with a Persian name who claims he can fly or something.
A general good and reliable intro (but a horribly unattractive website) into various aspects of Sufism one could explore is Prof. Alan Godlas' site:
http://islam.uga.edu/Sufism.html
It's actually fairly decent if you can get past the fact that it probably hasn't been overhauled since the late 90's...at least it doesn't have a bunch of animated gifs.
Peace.
*Most people forget this, but Maulana Rumi (ra) was the Hanafi mufti of Konya - it's kind of amazing how he has been transformed into some sort of hippy.Replies: @Tusk
Probably more in the vein of academic works towards development and history. My reading of Mulla Sadra was based on understanding perspectives of metaphysics (specifically wujud) as that is an area of interest. And yes please no New Age crap, I want to read real works instead of just garbage pumped out to fill the void because they deny god and find nothing in materialism. The issue is that without the cultural and historical contexts it is much harder to decide on what to read, so I will put my trust in a practicing Muslim to provide some authenticity.
I will have a read of that site though, and since I’ve been around the internet long enough it is more nostalgic than outdated. Thanks for your comment and any further recommendations.
A few good books about general doctrine and/or development, written by Muslims would be these:
https://www.meccabooks.com/208-sufism-and-islam-9789957230258.html
https://www.amazon.com/What-Sufism-Islamic-Texts-Society/dp/0946621411
https://www.amazon.com/Sufism-Non-Sufis-Allah-al-Sakandaris-al-Arus/dp/0199873674 (also very good for just your basic meat-and-potatoes of what is the essence of Sufism from an accomplished master [who was also huge scholar at al-Azhar])A generally good source, from an academic perspective, are articles from Oxford - pretty concise and fairly comprehensive - like this one:
http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t236/e0759I haven't read all of this book, but enough to appreciate that is a pretty good approach to the subject form a "historical phenomenon and development" perspective - shortcomings are expected in anything that tries to approach a subject so vast something at such a comprehensive level (especially by a non-Muslim author), but the positives abound (and, frankly - I'm not sure any Muslim has attempted such an encompassing inquiry):
https://www.amazon.com/Sufism-Global-History-Nile-Green/dp/1405157658Also some good videos.A short one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXzHs7TsV8UA long one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQWNeGyRu0kIn my estimation; convert scholars (like Shaykhs Abdal Hakim Murad, Yahya Rhodus, Nuh Keller, etc.) that have actually studied and trained under Sufis have probably the best grasp on how to properly speak on the phenomenon in the English language and Western parlance.Hope this helps.
Peace.
Note: When this happens...
"Thus 51.0% of whites favor a close relative marrying a...close relative."
We'll get those white clans and tribes back!Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Ash Williams, @Twinkie
Why are you surprised? Asians in America have the highest rates of intermarriage.
Peace.
We have data for response rates in online data:
I suspect black women and asian men are the least thrilled at competition by other races.
I think that is true but I would add a few caveats involving Asian men. Your conclusion was my same conclusion looking at the chart you produced. Rosie, though, once produced a chart that offered some interesting evidence: https://www.unz.com/anepigone/the-40-year-old-incel/#comment-3284238. That shows black men being least desired among all nonblack women. It appears that women overall are least interested in Asian men but that is because black women are extremely unfavorable to them. If you subtracted out black women, black men would be least desired because Asian women generally like Asian men and white females higher up on the income and education scale are also willing to consider Asian men since they make good husbands. So if I were an Asian guy looking to get married, I would not feel terribly upset. A lot of Asian women and higher quality white females might be interested in marrying me and only ghetto black women would shun me in large numbers.Replies: @Twinkie
I honestly had no clue!
Peace.
E uno plura.
The noun in the original motto is only implied; however, unum indicates it is of neuter gender.
Ex is unlikely to be shortened before a vowel.
The noun in the original motto is only implied; however, unum indicates it is of neuter gender.Replies: @Haruto Rat
On a second thought, ex uno plura.
Ex is unlikely to be shortened before a vowel.
My brother and I have eight kids between the two of us (mashaAllah) and I will be having a talk with him about planning to arrange a couple of marriages between our grandchildren (so second cousins); we’ll see if he’s game.
Peace.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @res
You might want to take a look at this paper: Effect of Inbreeding on Wechsler Intelligence Test Scores among North Indian Children
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/101053950401600204
They show (Table 1) about a 1/3 SD (5.7 points) decrease in full scale IQ for the children of second cousins relative to children with unrelated parents. The children of first cousins are another 6.5 IQ points worse.
Presumably it is not just IQ that is affected.
A more recent study with full text: Estimating the Inbreeding Depression on Cognitive Behavior: A Population Based Study of Child Cohort
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0109585
They include more detail, but don’t state the conclusion as directly. Figures 5 and 6 give a pretty good idea of the effect size though.
I am unsure if there is any selection bias related to the intelligence of people who choose to inbreed (or not) at different levels.
The big issue happens when you repeatedly marry first cousins, over and over again (which I'm not much interested in):
https://wjla.com/news/offbeat/a-new-study-shows-marrying-your-first-cousin-is-not-as-bad-as-it-seemsSure, when your sample populations have been doing this for generations:
"The incidence of consanguineous marriages ranges from 35% to 50% among the populations under study."
I'm not really that worried, but I appreciate the advice.
Peace.Replies: @res
12.50% of genes in common between first cousins
6.25% of genes in common between second cousins
3.00% of genes in common between third cousinshttps://www.popsci.com/marrying-cousins-genetics/Perhaps the genetic distance of third cousins would be the happy medium: achieving much of the family and social cohesion that Talha rightly values, without paying for it in measurably reduced intelligence or appreciably increased incidence of genetic disorders.It was surprising to learn that some of our most populous States (including California, Florida, New York, and New Jersey) allow FIRST-cousin marriages. Doesn’t seem wise, on balance, as suggested by these two articles in The Muslim Times:https://themuslimtimes.info/2017/08/07/marriage-between-first-cousins-doubles-risk-of-birth-defects-say-researchers/https://themuslimtimes.info/2015/07/10/first-cousin-marriages-in-pakistani-families-leading-to-disabilities-among-children/Replies: @res
"Among the anthropologically defined 356 contemporary societies of Euro-Asia and Africa, there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages;..."
https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/You cannot get rid of tribes in 50 years, this takes centuries of constant work.Yup - fairly stupid.Interestingly, in the US, we are simply too diverse and too small in numbers to be really infighting at an ethnic level. I rarely see that happening. I have seen legal conflicts between groups based on ideological/sectarian differences*.I certainly hope not, but one also has to be vigilant and prepare reasonably ahead of time.Peace.
*Had a great talk with one of my spiritual teachers last night. Looks like we are going to be coming out strong with our traditional Sufi teachings. I've been waiting for this. He and some of the other elders have come to the conclusion that we have tried to be less visible and less outward about our tradition in order to not cause conflict with the Salafi-Wahhabis, but that has given them way too much influence over the public narrative due to us keeping quiet - and they have completely screwed it up wherever they go and ended up causing trouble for everyone. High time for the push back to begin.Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Tusk, @res
An interesting juxtaposition. I tend to think your first statement is correct, and given the numbers it will be more of an ethnic us versus a legacy American them rather than intra-ethnic infighting.
https://eppc.org/publications/i-and-my-brother-against-my-cousin/
Peace.
https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/ethnic-preferences2.png?w=1260&h=1431&crop=1&strip=all&quality=75
I suspect black women and asian men are the least thrilled at competition by other races.Replies: @Mark G.
“I suspect black women and Asian men are the least thrilled at competition by other races.”
I think that is true but I would add a few caveats involving Asian men. Your conclusion was my same conclusion looking at the chart you produced. Rosie, though, once produced a chart that offered some interesting evidence: https://www.unz.com/anepigone/the-40-year-old-incel/#comment-3284238. That shows black men being least desired among all nonblack women. It appears that women overall are least interested in Asian men but that is because black women are extremely unfavorable to them. If you subtracted out black women, black men would be least desired because Asian women generally like Asian men and white females higher up on the income and education scale are also willing to consider Asian men since they make good husbands. So if I were an Asian guy looking to get married, I would not feel terribly upset. A lot of Asian women and higher quality white females might be interested in marrying me and only ghetto black women would shun me in large numbers.
https://eppc.org/publications/i-and-my-brother-against-my-cousin/Replies: @Talha
And THAT is precisely what someone in my position wants to avoid. Association of Islam with foreign ethnicity(ies) is completely incongruent with the goal people like myself an my teachers have.
Peace.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/101053950401600204
They show (Table 1) about a 1/3 SD (5.7 points) decrease in full scale IQ for the children of second cousins relative to children with unrelated parents. The children of first cousins are another 6.5 IQ points worse.
Presumably it is not just IQ that is affected.
A more recent study with full text: Estimating the Inbreeding Depression on Cognitive Behavior: A Population Based Study of Child Cohort
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0109585
They include more detail, but don't state the conclusion as directly. Figures 5 and 6 give a pretty good idea of the effect size though.
I am unsure if there is any selection bias related to the intelligence of people who choose to inbreed (or not) at different levels.Replies: @Talha, @RadicalCenter
Thanks for that, appreciated. A potential loss of 5 IQ points is simply not worth the loss of the benefits of family cohesion going forward into the next generations as far as I’m concerned. Plus, I’m only interested in a couple pairs of grand kids and they can do so for their own grand kids. I’ve got a pair of first cousins who got married together and their kids are brilliant (mashaAllah). One of their sons got an LSAT score so high that he can go to any law school that he wants (assuming they can afford it).
The big issue happens when you repeatedly marry first cousins, over and over again (which I’m not much interested in):
https://wjla.com/news/offbeat/a-new-study-shows-marrying-your-first-cousin-is-not-as-bad-as-it-seems
Sure, when your sample populations have been doing this for generations:
“The incidence of consanguineous marriages ranges from 35% to 50% among the populations under study.”
I’m not really that worried, but I appreciate the advice.
Peace.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6385/171
I think it is worth noting that their outcome variable was longevity which they calculated as having a heritability around 15% (which is low compared to the usual estimates). This compares to a heritability for IQ of more like 70%.
I found the first cousin spouses analysis (pp. 20-21 of the Supplemental Material) less than straightforward. I do not see how it justifies the statement in your article. Which I consider a credibility red flag for the summarizing article.
But do as you like. Good luck.Replies: @Talha
Asian men in the West are considered bottom tier betas by all Western women, even Westernized Asian women! They are the most feminized males, so they face the stiffest competition. Likewise Westernized African women are considered bottom tier even by African men in the West. They are the most masculine women, and poor marriage prospects compared to white and Asian women.
The alliance between gender and racial minoritarianism is fracturing. As the straight white male recedes from view, the minorities begin to turn on each other.
An Australian Asian man calling Australian Asian women racist against Asians because they won't date Asians is the perfect expression of the chaos that social constructivism has brought to the modern Western world.Replies: @Toronto Russian
But girls like somewhat feminine guys more than burly machos. Peter Jackson knew it when he put two skinny, almost beardless young Dwarves in The Hobbit. These guys of course got most of female viewers’ attention, along with Thorin who was masculine in a dramatic/Byronic way, but still thin for a Dwarf and mostly beardless. Loki in Marvel movies has about three times as many fangirls as Thor according to online polls. When I was a kid, everyone was crazy about Leonardo DiCaprio as a baby-faced romantic artist, Johnny Depp in his pre-Jack Sparrow “gothic” image, boy bands etc.
Asians with their bishonen aesthetics have been doing very well at charming girls worldwide, now that doramas and K-pop enjoy international popularity. BTS were the highlight of New Year 2020 Times Square concert for example.
So the Asian type per se is not unattractive. The problem of Asian men is that, so to say, there’s no middle ground – they either look very good like dorama actors, or… like old-timey “Jap” caricatures. As nutrition gets better and orthodontics more available, more boys grow up on the handsome side, but on the other hand rising obesity counteracts it. I’d say good hairstyles would benefit most of them – no need to go all BTS with unnatural colors, but hair should be a little grown out (traditional hairstyles in Asia were either long or shaved for a reason) and well cared for.
The guy in the video is a good example of this. There is nothing wrong with how he looks. He is reasonably fit and attractive, but his attempt at strutting and flaunting himself is so forced that he ends up looking like a goofy kid. Then he whines and complains about being rejected like a scorned woman. This makes him look pathetic. If he just took the attitude of, "fuck those Asian bitches, I'm going to drown myself in white pussy," then he'd be a lot less repulsive and would probably end up with the Asian girls that he obviously wants so badly.
I will have a read of that site though, and since I've been around the internet long enough it is more nostalgic than outdated. Thanks for your comment and any further recommendations.Replies: @Talha
OK – so a here goes…below the MORE tag…
Peace.
A few good books about general doctrine and/or development, written by Muslims would be these:
https://www.meccabooks.com/208-sufism-and-islam-9789957230258.html
https://www.amazon.com/Sufism-Non-Sufis-Allah-al-Sakandaris-al-Arus/dp/0199873674 (also very good for just your basic meat-and-potatoes of what is the essence of Sufism from an accomplished master [who was also huge scholar at al-Azhar])
A generally good source, from an academic perspective, are articles from Oxford – pretty concise and fairly comprehensive – like this one:
http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t236/e0759
I haven’t read all of this book, but enough to appreciate that is a pretty good approach to the subject form a “historical phenomenon and development” perspective – shortcomings are expected in anything that tries to approach a subject so vast something at such a comprehensive level (especially by a non-Muslim author), but the positives abound (and, frankly – I’m not sure any Muslim has attempted such an encompassing inquiry):
Also some good videos.
A short one:
A long one:
In my estimation; convert scholars (like Shaykhs Abdal Hakim Murad, Yahya Rhodus, Nuh Keller, etc.) that have actually studied and trained under Sufis have probably the best grasp on how to properly speak on the phenomenon in the English language and Western parlance.
Hope this helps.
The big issue happens when you repeatedly marry first cousins, over and over again (which I'm not much interested in):
https://wjla.com/news/offbeat/a-new-study-shows-marrying-your-first-cousin-is-not-as-bad-as-it-seemsSure, when your sample populations have been doing this for generations:
"The incidence of consanguineous marriages ranges from 35% to 50% among the populations under study."
I'm not really that worried, but I appreciate the advice.
Peace.Replies: @res
Thanks for the link. Here is the underlying paper:
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6385/171
I think it is worth noting that their outcome variable was longevity which they calculated as having a heritability around 15% (which is low compared to the usual estimates). This compares to a heritability for IQ of more like 70%.
I found the first cousin spouses analysis (pp. 20-21 of the Supplemental Material) less than straightforward. I do not see how it justifies the statement in your article. Which I consider a credibility red flag for the summarizing article.
But do as you like. Good luck.
Peace.Replies: @res
I think that is true but I would add a few caveats involving Asian men. Your conclusion was my same conclusion looking at the chart you produced. Rosie, though, once produced a chart that offered some interesting evidence: https://www.unz.com/anepigone/the-40-year-old-incel/#comment-3284238. That shows black men being least desired among all nonblack women. It appears that women overall are least interested in Asian men but that is because black women are extremely unfavorable to them. If you subtracted out black women, black men would be least desired because Asian women generally like Asian men and white females higher up on the income and education scale are also willing to consider Asian men since they make good husbands. So if I were an Asian guy looking to get married, I would not feel terribly upset. A lot of Asian women and higher quality white females might be interested in marrying me and only ghetto black women would shun me in large numbers.Replies: @Twinkie
Your intuition is borne out by the marriage data. Asian males have the highest marriage rate among men of all races in the U.S. and Asian husband-white wife couples have the highest median income of all pairings (Asian husband-Asian wife couples have the second highest). That’s some sorry state of affairs for Asian men. 🙂
http://m.www.na-businesspress.com/JABE/GiusM_Web14_4_.pdfReplies: @res, @Twinkie
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6385/171
I think it is worth noting that their outcome variable was longevity which they calculated as having a heritability around 15% (which is low compared to the usual estimates). This compares to a heritability for IQ of more like 70%.
I found the first cousin spouses analysis (pp. 20-21 of the Supplemental Material) less than straightforward. I do not see how it justifies the statement in your article. Which I consider a credibility red flag for the summarizing article.
But do as you like. Good luck.Replies: @Talha
What I’d be interested in is if heritability of traits actually varies across different people; I don’t see why that wouldn’t be the case. Why should all people inherit at a constant of 70% (or whatever the assumption is)?
Yeah, not too interested in arranging for that. If a couple of the kids themselves are interested within my own grand kids, I’d ask them to do a genetic screening first.
Thanks!
Peace.
I believe the big thing which causes heritability to vary is how variable the environment is for that group. Think of it as two components adding to describe total variation within the group:
genetic variance + environmental variance = total variance
Heritability is simply (genetic variance) / (total variance)
So it is easy to see how either genetic or environmental variance changing can influence the heritability. Genetic variance might differ for more and less diverse groups, or groups which have an especially low or high frequency of deleterious alleles.
But I think environmental variance is more variable. Especially if you start looking at between country differences.
If anyone is really interested in this, this page is worth a look:
https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-psychology/classroom-resources/understanding-heritability
This excerpt provides a common example:What Lewontin's experiment speaks to is the low between group heritability in that case. Within group heritability is 100% in both trays.
That the Lewontin example is so popular in genetics classes with so little questioning or closer examination says a great deal. Note that Lewontin is better known for "Lewontin's Fallacy" which makes his biases clear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genetic_Diversity:_Lewontin%27s_Fallacy
P.S. It is worth emphasizing that Lewontin did not actually do the experiment. It is a thought experiment. Some more discussion of it and an older variation: https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/?p=8094Replies: @iffen
Asians with their bishonen aesthetics have been doing very well at charming girls worldwide, now that doramas and K-pop enjoy international popularity. BTS were the highlight of New Year 2020 Times Square concert for example.
https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.556657533.8564/flat,550x550,075,f.jpg
So the Asian type per se is not unattractive. The problem of Asian men is that, so to say, there's no middle ground - they either look very good like dorama actors, or... like old-timey "Jap" caricatures. As nutrition gets better and orthodontics more available, more boys grow up on the handsome side, but on the other hand rising obesity counteracts it. I'd say good hairstyles would benefit most of them - no need to go all BTS with unnatural colors, but hair should be a little grown out (traditional hairstyles in Asia were either long or shaved for a reason) and well cared for.Replies: @GodHelpUs
The issue is more personality type rather than physical looks. Asian men are less assertive and more self-conscious. It’s rare to see Asian men rise to the top of a male social hierarchy when they have to compete with men of other races. Given that social status is the most important trait that women look for in a mate, this puts Asian men at a big disadvantage.
The guy in the video is a good example of this. There is nothing wrong with how he looks. He is reasonably fit and attractive, but his attempt at strutting and flaunting himself is so forced that he ends up looking like a goofy kid. Then he whines and complains about being rejected like a scorned woman. This makes him look pathetic. If he just took the attitude of, “fuck those Asian bitches, I’m going to drown myself in white pussy,” then he’d be a lot less repulsive and would probably end up with the Asian girls that he obviously wants so badly.
Peace.Replies: @res
More meaningful to ask if it varies across different groups (you might consider extended families or multiple siblings, but those groups generally aren’t large enough for good statistical power). Heritability numbers have an implicit “within this group of people/etc.” attached to them. Then it is a question of how representative the sample is of a given population.
I believe the big thing which causes heritability to vary is how variable the environment is for that group. Think of it as two components adding to describe total variation within the group:
genetic variance + environmental variance = total variance
Heritability is simply (genetic variance) / (total variance)
So it is easy to see how either genetic or environmental variance changing can influence the heritability. Genetic variance might differ for more and less diverse groups, or groups which have an especially low or high frequency of deleterious alleles.
But I think environmental variance is more variable. Especially if you start looking at between country differences.
If anyone is really interested in this, this page is worth a look:
https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-psychology/classroom-resources/understanding-heritability
This excerpt provides a common example:
What Lewontin’s experiment speaks to is the low between group heritability in that case. Within group heritability is 100% in both trays.
That the Lewontin example is so popular in genetics classes with so little questioning or closer examination says a great deal. Note that Lewontin is better known for “Lewontin’s Fallacy” which makes his biases clear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genetic_Diversity:_Lewontin%27s_Fallacy
P.S. It is worth emphasizing that Lewontin did not actually do the experiment. It is a thought experiment. Some more discussion of it and an older variation: https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/?p=8094
But is the "ideal" environment the same for differing genetic packages?Replies: @Talha
I believe the big thing which causes heritability to vary is how variable the environment is for that group. Think of it as two components adding to describe total variation within the group:
genetic variance + environmental variance = total variance
Heritability is simply (genetic variance) / (total variance)
So it is easy to see how either genetic or environmental variance changing can influence the heritability. Genetic variance might differ for more and less diverse groups, or groups which have an especially low or high frequency of deleterious alleles.
But I think environmental variance is more variable. Especially if you start looking at between country differences.
If anyone is really interested in this, this page is worth a look:
https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-psychology/classroom-resources/understanding-heritability
This excerpt provides a common example:What Lewontin's experiment speaks to is the low between group heritability in that case. Within group heritability is 100% in both trays.
That the Lewontin example is so popular in genetics classes with so little questioning or closer examination says a great deal. Note that Lewontin is better known for "Lewontin's Fallacy" which makes his biases clear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genetic_Diversity:_Lewontin%27s_Fallacy
P.S. It is worth emphasizing that Lewontin did not actually do the experiment. It is a thought experiment. Some more discussion of it and an older variation: https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/?p=8094Replies: @iffen
The other environment is enriched with ideal amounts
But is the “ideal” environment the same for differing genetic packages?
But is the "ideal" environment the same for differing genetic packages?Replies: @Talha
Certainly an interesting question. I mean, take a rich environment like a place I visited in the early 2000’s – Kosovo – beautiful landscape, land looked very verdant and fertile (at least the valleys), plenty of rain, streams here and there bringing in water from the mountains. There was a hilltop I remember climbing and looking at the land below – the clouds were this amazing color – and thinking, this is what Paradise must look like. I even remember, as I walked back down, two Apache helicopters went patrolling overhead very low, looked less than a 100 feet off the ground from my vantage point.
Contrast that to an article I read about the environment of one of the Gulf countries – absolutely awash in oil wealth now, but even their elites were living in mud huts in the 60’s and some of them even remember when there were episodes of acute lack of water and their elders would slit the throat of a camel and have them drink its blood to avoid dying of thirst.
What a world, eh?
Peace.
Frigging Garden of Eden, no wonder the Serbs want it back.
Peace.
Land swap for it with parts of Republik Sprska might work (with population swaps also).
Peace.
Some things to remember: Asians aren't broken out by sub-race, e.g. Indian, Chinese, etc., and this survey is USA only.
Also, Blacks are the most race-faithful. Which doesn't surprise, except in that the number isn't higher.Replies: @Audacious Epigone
I’ve heard many times over the years that the Japanese allegedly hate themselves. Maybe. They seem to like Japan well enough, though.
American Jewish net outmarriage data:
Majority of Jews have non Jewish partner since 1995.
Chapter 2: Intermarriage and Other Demographics
in the six chapter piece
A Portrait of Jewish Americans
https://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/
P.S. I am guessing you know all of this, but perhaps others are interested.
Are you sure about that? This study seems to suggest whitemale+Asianfemale has a higher income than Asian male+Asian female or Asian male+white female? Asian male+black female earns more?
http://m.www.na-businesspress.com/JABE/GiusM_Web14_4_.pdf
Pattern Recognition Is Another Name for Racism and Sexism.
Hate to break it to you, but Americans are not a tribe. We are a people. Sometimes united, sometimes divided.
E Plubius Muttis!
https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/09/jew-chp2-1.pngMajority of Jews have non Jewish partner since 1995.Replies: @res
Thanks! I had not seen that data. Here is a link to the source. There is much more information at the link. Your table is just a small part of
Chapter 2: Intermarriage and Other Demographics
in the six chapter piece
A Portrait of Jewish Americans
https://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/
P.S. I am guessing you know all of this, but perhaps others are interested.
http://m.www.na-businesspress.com/JABE/GiusM_Web14_4_.pdfReplies: @res, @Twinkie
I assume you are looking at Table 2? Note that is part of a multivariate model. The education coefficients (bachelors degree, grad degree) are about 10x the size of the race pairing coefficients. I bet there is an Asian advantage in education (and maybe other variables?) which overwhelms the race coefficients if you look at actual observed incomes for each group.
And isn’t Asian-Asian the largest positive race coefficient at 0.0828?
Yeah and I can prove it. My Asian wife has a 100% rate of white intermarriage.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/101053950401600204
They show (Table 1) about a 1/3 SD (5.7 points) decrease in full scale IQ for the children of second cousins relative to children with unrelated parents. The children of first cousins are another 6.5 IQ points worse.
Presumably it is not just IQ that is affected.
A more recent study with full text: Estimating the Inbreeding Depression on Cognitive Behavior: A Population Based Study of Child Cohort
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0109585
They include more detail, but don't state the conclusion as directly. Figures 5 and 6 give a pretty good idea of the effect size though.
I am unsure if there is any selection bias related to the intelligence of people who choose to inbreed (or not) at different levels.Replies: @Talha, @RadicalCenter
Thank you, res, this is helpful. Would be interesting to see stats on IQ scores — and the incidence of serious genetic defects — among people whose parents are THIRD cousins.
This 2018 article from Popular Science reports:
12.50% of genes in common between first cousins
6.25% of genes in common between second cousins
3.00% of genes in common between third cousins
https://www.popsci.com/marrying-cousins-genetics/
Perhaps the genetic distance of third cousins would be the happy medium: achieving much of the family and social cohesion that Talha rightly values, without paying for it in measurably reduced intelligence or appreciably increased incidence of genetic disorders.
It was surprising to learn that some of our most populous States (including California, Florida, New York, and New Jersey) allow FIRST-cousin marriages. Doesn’t seem wise, on balance, as suggested by these two articles in The Muslim Times:
https://themuslimtimes.info/2017/08/07/marriage-between-first-cousins-doubles-risk-of-birth-defects-say-researchers/
https://themuslimtimes.info/2015/07/10/first-cousin-marriages-in-pakistani-families-leading-to-disabilities-among-children/
It would be interesting to have data good enough to check this idea in detail. It is pretty close for the first and second cousin results from the IQ data I linked.
This might even be a more accurate way of estimating the rates than trying to measure the low frequency cases.
BUT I believe the sharing is different than the article you quoted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consanguinity#Genetic_definitionsWhich makes those IQ results I cited above odd.
Those numbers make more sense (note the once removed intermediate points) because the relatedness is cut in half with each generation of distance. And second cousins are more distant than first cousins by two links--one for each side of the tree. The easy way to calculate this is using "degrees of consanguinity" calculated by counting up from one prospective partner to the common ancestor, then down to the other prospective partner.
Based on this, second cousin marriage does not look that bad genetically. But might be wise to do some genetic testing of the potential partners first.That's not the only issue. When the early Christian church cracked down on inbreeding I think it was as much (more?) about the social (tribal behavior) impact than the genetic negatives impact.
Inbreeding can definitely increase family cohesion, but does it really increase social cohesion between families? I tend to think rather the opposite.Replies: @iffen
12.50% of genes in common between first cousins
6.25% of genes in common between second cousins
3.00% of genes in common between third cousinshttps://www.popsci.com/marrying-cousins-genetics/Perhaps the genetic distance of third cousins would be the happy medium: achieving much of the family and social cohesion that Talha rightly values, without paying for it in measurably reduced intelligence or appreciably increased incidence of genetic disorders.It was surprising to learn that some of our most populous States (including California, Florida, New York, and New Jersey) allow FIRST-cousin marriages. Doesn’t seem wise, on balance, as suggested by these two articles in The Muslim Times:https://themuslimtimes.info/2017/08/07/marriage-between-first-cousins-doubles-risk-of-birth-defects-say-researchers/https://themuslimtimes.info/2015/07/10/first-cousin-marriages-in-pakistani-families-leading-to-disabilities-among-children/Replies: @res
Since the big negative of inbreeding is uncommon recessives pairing up in two different IBD paths from the same source I think we can make a reasonable first order approximation by just derating the first cousin results by the differences in genetic commonality. So we would expect second cousin marriage to be half as bad as first cousin and third cousin half as bad as second cousin. (see below, should be one quarter and one sixteenth)
It would be interesting to have data good enough to check this idea in detail. It is pretty close for the first and second cousin results from the IQ data I linked.
This might even be a more accurate way of estimating the rates than trying to measure the low frequency cases.
BUT I believe the sharing is different than the article you quoted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consanguinity#Genetic_definitions
Which makes those IQ results I cited above odd.
Those numbers make more sense (note the once removed intermediate points) because the relatedness is cut in half with each generation of distance. And second cousins are more distant than first cousins by two links–one for each side of the tree. The easy way to calculate this is using “degrees of consanguinity” calculated by counting up from one prospective partner to the common ancestor, then down to the other prospective partner.
Based on this, second cousin marriage does not look that bad genetically. But might be wise to do some genetic testing of the potential partners first.
That’s not the only issue. When the early Christian church cracked down on inbreeding I think it was as much (more?) about the social (tribal behavior) impact than the genetic negatives impact.
Inbreeding can definitely increase family cohesion, but does it really increase social cohesion between families? I tend to think rather the opposite.
How about expounding further on this?Replies: @Audacious Epigone, @res
It would be interesting to have data good enough to check this idea in detail. It is pretty close for the first and second cousin results from the IQ data I linked.
This might even be a more accurate way of estimating the rates than trying to measure the low frequency cases.
BUT I believe the sharing is different than the article you quoted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consanguinity#Genetic_definitionsWhich makes those IQ results I cited above odd.
Those numbers make more sense (note the once removed intermediate points) because the relatedness is cut in half with each generation of distance. And second cousins are more distant than first cousins by two links--one for each side of the tree. The easy way to calculate this is using "degrees of consanguinity" calculated by counting up from one prospective partner to the common ancestor, then down to the other prospective partner.
Based on this, second cousin marriage does not look that bad genetically. But might be wise to do some genetic testing of the potential partners first.That's not the only issue. When the early Christian church cracked down on inbreeding I think it was as much (more?) about the social (tribal behavior) impact than the genetic negatives impact.
Inbreeding can definitely increase family cohesion, but does it really increase social cohesion between families? I tend to think rather the opposite.Replies: @iffen
Inbreeding can definitely increase family cohesion, but does it really increase social cohesion between families? I tend to think rather the opposite.
How about expounding further on this?
This slide presentation talks a bit about social network theory and kinship. I did not find more in a quick look around the internet, but this seems like it might be a useful way to look at this issue.
https://www.imsc.res.in/~sitabhra/meetings/socialnetwork0212/talks/Rowena_Robinson_Kinship_and_social_networks21feb.pdf
The next to last slide gives an inbreeding example.
A big question is what greater within family social cohesion does to between family social cohesion. To what extent do these compete vs. reinforce each other?Replies: @Talha
How about expounding further on this?Replies: @Audacious Epigone, @res
It increases the bonds of kinship–culturally and genetically, since the children of cousins are more related to heir extended family members on both sides (which are substantially the same side!)–at the level of extended family and at the expense of local community that would otherwise develop with unrelated neighbors.
How about expounding further on this?Replies: @Audacious Epigone, @res
AE gave a good answer which summarizes my view as well. I don’t really know much about this. My comment was as much trying to get a response from anyone who knows more as expressing my opinion.
This slide presentation talks a bit about social network theory and kinship. I did not find more in a quick look around the internet, but this seems like it might be a useful way to look at this issue.
https://www.imsc.res.in/~sitabhra/meetings/socialnetwork0212/talks/Rowena_Robinson_Kinship_and_social_networks21feb.pdf
The next to last slide gives an inbreeding example.
A big question is what greater within family social cohesion does to between family social cohesion. To what extent do these compete vs. reinforce each other?
Peace.Replies: @res
This slide presentation talks a bit about social network theory and kinship. I did not find more in a quick look around the internet, but this seems like it might be a useful way to look at this issue.
https://www.imsc.res.in/~sitabhra/meetings/socialnetwork0212/talks/Rowena_Robinson_Kinship_and_social_networks21feb.pdf
The next to last slide gives an inbreeding example.
A big question is what greater within family social cohesion does to between family social cohesion. To what extent do these compete vs. reinforce each other?Replies: @Talha
I would think that it is naturally dependent on ratios. If one avoids extremes, then one can come to a balance between the two concerns. For instance, if a cousin marriage rate is within 10-15% in a society, that obviously means that extended families are making networks into the rest of the community with the majority of their marriages. Now if you switch that to some extremes like there are in the Muslim world where you have 50% or so cousin marriage – than the opposite applies.
Peace.
Chapter 8 of this gives a good look at multiple social cohesion indicators, but is limited to the Asia Pacific region:
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/society-at-a-glance-asia-pacific-2011_9789264106154-en
Trust is an incomplete metric, but this still might be useful.
https://ourworldindata.org/trust#how-do-countries-around-the-world-compare-in-terms-of-interpersonal-trust
This article links to numerical data on cousin marriages by country:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-many-americans-are-married-to-their-cousins/
I think the thing to do is to merge the country data from above:
Download trust map data from above.
https://github.com/fivethirtyeight/data/blob/master/cousin-marriage/cousin-marriage-data.csv
Then look at the correlation. I'll probably try this later. Unless someone else gets to it first.
Any ideas for alternative metrics and/or data sources?Replies: @Talha, @res
Peace.Replies: @res
Concrete examples would be helpful. How do these things vary in actual (not theoretical) societies?
Chapter 8 of this gives a good look at multiple social cohesion indicators, but is limited to the Asia Pacific region:
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/society-at-a-glance-asia-pacific-2011_9789264106154-en
Trust is an incomplete metric, but this still might be useful.
https://ourworldindata.org/trust#how-do-countries-around-the-world-compare-in-terms-of-interpersonal-trust
This article links to numerical data on cousin marriages by country:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-many-americans-are-married-to-their-cousins/
I think the thing to do is to merge the country data from above:
Download trust map data from above.
https://github.com/fivethirtyeight/data/blob/master/cousin-marriage/cousin-marriage-data.csv
Then look at the correlation. I’ll probably try this later. Unless someone else gets to it first.
Any ideas for alternative metrics and/or data sources?
Peace.
The correlation was almost exactly 0 with no obvious patterns to my eye.
If anyone else wants to take a look, the merged CSV is after the MORE.
"","Entity","Code","Year","Trust.in.others....","Percent.Cousin"
"1","Algeria","DZA",2014,17.92863,22.6
"2","Argentina","ARG",2014,22.64706,0.5
"3","Australia","AUS",2014,54.43383,0.5
"4","Bahrain","BHR",2014,33.5,44.4
"5","Brazil","BRA",2014,6.52759,4.3
"6","Chile","CHL",2014,12.64016,0.9
"7","China","CHN",2014,62.69384,5
"8","Colombia","COL",2014,4.12783,3.5
"9","Ecuador","ECU",2014,7.1607,3.5
"10","Egypt","EGY",2014,20.55154,31
"11","India","IND",2014,32.95383,26.6
"12","Iraq","IRQ",2014,30,34.3
"13","Japan","JPN",2014,35.93942,7.6
"14","Jordan","JOR",2014,13.25,31.6
"15","Kuwait","KWT",2014,29.15361,51.7
"16","Kyrgyzstan","KGZ",2014,37.72538,45.2
"17","Lebanon","LBN",2014,9.83333,26.6
"18","Libya","LBY",2014,11.00614,37.6
"19","Malaysia","MYS",2014,8.53846,7.6
"20","Mexico","MEX",2014,12.4062,0.8
"21","Morocco","MAR",2014,12.44743,19.9
"22","Nigeria","NGA",2014,14.78113,51.2
"23","Pakistan","PAK",2014,23.54949,51
"24","Peru","PER",2014,8.21577,2.5
"25","Philippines","PHL",2014,2.83333,0.4
"26","Qatar","QAT",2014,21.4151,44.5
"27","Singapore","SGP",2014,38.51626,3.6
"28","Slovenia","SVN",2014,19.98124,0.6
"29","South Africa","ZAF",2014,23.50609,2.8
"30","Spain","ESP",2014,19.01944,2
"31","Sweden","SWE",2014,63.75839,0.7
"32","Tunisia","TUN",2014,15.51867,26.9
"33","Turkey","TUR",2014,12.00762,20.1
"34","United States","USA",2014,38.17277,0.2
"35","Uruguay","URY",2014,14.43515,2.1
"36","Uzbekistan","UZB",2014,13.92236,23.3
"37","Yemen","YEM",2014,38.5,34.9
Chapter 8 of this gives a good look at multiple social cohesion indicators, but is limited to the Asia Pacific region:
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/society-at-a-glance-asia-pacific-2011_9789264106154-en
Trust is an incomplete metric, but this still might be useful.
https://ourworldindata.org/trust#how-do-countries-around-the-world-compare-in-terms-of-interpersonal-trust
This article links to numerical data on cousin marriages by country:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-many-americans-are-married-to-their-cousins/
I think the thing to do is to merge the country data from above:
Download trust map data from above.
https://github.com/fivethirtyeight/data/blob/master/cousin-marriage/cousin-marriage-data.csv
Then look at the correlation. I'll probably try this later. Unless someone else gets to it first.
Any ideas for alternative metrics and/or data sources?Replies: @Talha, @res
I don’t really, I was just talking from an intuitive perspective. Thanks for the interesting links.
Peace.
Chapter 8 of this gives a good look at multiple social cohesion indicators, but is limited to the Asia Pacific region:
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/society-at-a-glance-asia-pacific-2011_9789264106154-en
Trust is an incomplete metric, but this still might be useful.
https://ourworldindata.org/trust#how-do-countries-around-the-world-compare-in-terms-of-interpersonal-trust
This article links to numerical data on cousin marriages by country:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-many-americans-are-married-to-their-cousins/
I think the thing to do is to merge the country data from above:
Download trust map data from above.
https://github.com/fivethirtyeight/data/blob/master/cousin-marriage/cousin-marriage-data.csv
Then look at the correlation. I'll probably try this later. Unless someone else gets to it first.
Any ideas for alternative metrics and/or data sources?Replies: @Talha, @res
I went ahead and did that. The merged data only had 37 countries, but seemed like a relatively representative set.
The correlation was almost exactly 0 with no obvious patterns to my eye.
If anyone else wants to take a look, the merged CSV is after the MORE.
“”,”Entity”,”Code”,”Year”,”Trust.in.others….”,”Percent.Cousin”
“1”,”Algeria”,”DZA”,2014,17.92863,22.6
“2”,”Argentina”,”ARG”,2014,22.64706,0.5
“3”,”Australia”,”AUS”,2014,54.43383,0.5
“4”,”Bahrain”,”BHR”,2014,33.5,44.4
“5”,”Brazil”,”BRA”,2014,6.52759,4.3
“6”,”Chile”,”CHL”,2014,12.64016,0.9
“7”,”China”,”CHN”,2014,62.69384,5
“8”,”Colombia”,”COL”,2014,4.12783,3.5
“9”,”Ecuador”,”ECU”,2014,7.1607,3.5
“10”,”Egypt”,”EGY”,2014,20.55154,31
“11”,”India”,”IND”,2014,32.95383,26.6
“12”,”Iraq”,”IRQ”,2014,30,34.3
“13”,”Japan”,”JPN”,2014,35.93942,7.6
“14”,”Jordan”,”JOR”,2014,13.25,31.6
“15”,”Kuwait”,”KWT”,2014,29.15361,51.7
“16”,”Kyrgyzstan”,”KGZ”,2014,37.72538,45.2
“17”,”Lebanon”,”LBN”,2014,9.83333,26.6
“18”,”Libya”,”LBY”,2014,11.00614,37.6
“19”,”Malaysia”,”MYS”,2014,8.53846,7.6
“20”,”Mexico”,”MEX”,2014,12.4062,0.8
“21”,”Morocco”,”MAR”,2014,12.44743,19.9
“22”,”Nigeria”,”NGA”,2014,14.78113,51.2
“23”,”Pakistan”,”PAK”,2014,23.54949,51
“24”,”Peru”,”PER”,2014,8.21577,2.5
“25”,”Philippines”,”PHL”,2014,2.83333,0.4
“26”,”Qatar”,”QAT”,2014,21.4151,44.5
“27”,”Singapore”,”SGP”,2014,38.51626,3.6
“28”,”Slovenia”,”SVN”,2014,19.98124,0.6
“29”,”South Africa”,”ZAF”,2014,23.50609,2.8
“30”,”Spain”,”ESP”,2014,19.01944,2
“31”,”Sweden”,”SWE”,2014,63.75839,0.7
“32”,”Tunisia”,”TUN”,2014,15.51867,26.9
“33”,”Turkey”,”TUR”,2014,12.00762,20.1
“34”,”United States”,”USA”,2014,38.17277,0.2
“35”,”Uruguay”,”URY”,2014,14.43515,2.1
“36”,”Uzbekistan”,”UZB”,2014,13.92236,23.3
“37”,”Yemen”,”YEM”,2014,38.5,34.9
http://m.www.na-businesspress.com/JABE/GiusM_Web14_4_.pdfReplies: @res, @Twinkie
I was wrong about the Asian-Asian being the second highest (white-Asian is), but correct about Asian-white being the highest.