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Last year, 1,004 people were fatally shot by police. The vast majority of them were armed men.

Over the last two decades, the number of men who take their own lives each year has increased by over 13,000. That’s not 13,000 men who kill themselves annually–that’s 13,000 more men who kill themselves today than killed themselves a generation ago.

In 2017, 36,782 men committed suicide. Fortunately, cop killings are on the decline. But suicides are on the rise; Cowboys and Indians hit hardest:

For every white man killed by police, 65 white men kill themselves.

For every black man killed by police, 10 black men kill themselves.

For every Hispanic man killed by police, 18 Hispanic men kill themselves.

For every Other man killed by police, 36 Other men kill themselves (sorry, that’s how the data are recorded).

Are cop killings fifty times as preventable as suicides are? That’s what’s needed for the current efforts–granting efficacy to said efforts for the sake of argument–to result in as many lives being saved as effective suicide intervention would spare.

If people want to kill themselves, are they worth saving? Well, police shooting victims aren’t angels, either. If lives matter, they matter.

 
• Category: Culture/Society, Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Police, Suicide 
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  1. The higher suicide rate among American Indians and whites is mostly attributable to the higher rate of gun ownership. American Indians have the highest rate of gun ownership in America (Guns at College, Journal of American College Health, Volume 48, Issue 1). It is even said that Native Americans are the original source of gun culture in the US:

    https://fee.org/articles/you-can-thank-american-indians-for-american-gun-culture/

    • Replies: @anon
  2. Twinkie says:

    Last year, 1,004 people were fatally shot by police. The vast majority of them were armed men… In 2017, 36,782 men committed suicide.

    You know this. I know this. Most readers and commenters here know this. Black males are shot in large numbers disproportionately, because they commit crimes and are thusly stopped by the police in large numbers disproportionately. In point of fact, at least one study has shown that police officers are slightly LESS likely to shoot black suspects than white ones (this was linked and discuss on Unz in the aftermath of previous police fatal shootings of blacks).

    Even non-blacks who are shot by the police are, in the vast majority of cases, armed men who posed a threat to the police officer in question or those nearby.

    Yes, there are very questionable cases – because human beings are not perfect and there are bad police officers as well as police officers who make mistakes. But those are a very small minority of those who are shot fatally by the police, contrary to the moronic rhetoric of “police mowing down civilians with impunity” that even some commenters here (you know who you are) repeat.

  3. Rosie says:

    The trouble with untalked-about “feelz” is that they can kill you.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  4. Men doing what men of a defeated people do.

    Here is a chart I made from the mortality data at the CDC combining suicide and drug and alcohol deaths for US males, ages 15-54, by race:

    (The CDC has an amazing number of “death by” categories, including, believe it or not, death by pretending to die.)

    • Replies: @Gordo
    , @JohnPlywood
    , @Twinkie
    , @res
  5. Gordo says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Men doing what men of a defeated people do.

    Oh indeed, and the media shout and drone and squeak it in the faces of White men and boys every day in something that is akin to attempted murder.

    The day will come…

  6. @Craig Nelsen

    There is no logical basis for describing white people as defeated.

    • Troll: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  7. Talha says:

    Wow, that graphic is pretty incredible. Speaks volumes for who is getting hit hard over the years or at least those that see a very bleak future ahead of themselves.

    Peace.

  8. Talha says:

    Some folks don’t feel defeated at all:
    What is up with all these world leaders taking such creepy as hell photos with glowing globes as if they are some comic book villains?!🤨

    Are they that confident that they simply don’t care anymore?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @neutral
  9. AE: “For every White man killed by police, 65 White men kill themselves.”

    SFX: Sound of intense, gleeful, high-speed hand-rubbing.

  10. Twinkie says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Men doing what men of a defeated people do.

    There has to be other factors at work, because it is an understatement to say that American Indians are much worse off than whites. It’s not even a comparison.

    Personally, I think the real reason is that many whites have lost a sense of community and feel extremely isolated and alienated, and I think this is case even in areas with very few nonwhites, so “Diversity!” can’t be the sole (or a major) factor.

    I think it’s being distant from family and relatives, lacking friendships, not having a religious community, etc. – not belonging to something larger and meaningful that empower them with a sense of greater purpose in life.

  11. It’s not a bug, it’s a feature. White men are basically selfless and other directed, the worlds finest self appointed white knights. When we feel unneeded, we lose the will to live. This is not a “defeated American” thing. White men world wide have the highest suicide rates.

    It’s sweet to see how selection is working here to purify and harden Whites.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  12. Twinkie says:
    @Jedi Night

    White men world wide have the highest suicide rates.

    Not quite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

    Among the top ten (for males), 5 are in the former Soviet Union (Russia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, and Latvia), two are in South America (Guyana and Suriname), two are in Africa (Ivory Coast and Equatorial Guinea, and one is in East Asia (South Korea). Among these, only South Korea is a top-tier economy/very high human development index country.

    You have to go to the 31st place to find a non-former Soviet block European country – Belgium. Most Western European countries cluster around 50th place and the 90th-100th or so.

    It seems to me that the most probable common denominator is alcohol abuse.

    • Agree: EldnahYm
  13. I guess age is an important factor when it comes to suicide. It might in part explain the rise of suicide rates. Maybe with the medical system today more people than before reach a age and medical situation in which they simply don’t want to live anymore. Also people who commit suicide are on average probably much older than people who get shot by the police. So there could be a discussion concerning years of life lost, similar to the discussion in relation to COVID-19. Anyway the problem with police-shootings is complicated. On one hand I guess by far the most shootings are justified at it is in most cases some kind of self-defense. On the other hand the police in the USA shoot people so much more often than the police in Europe.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  14. It does not do any good to try to discuss “the” cause of suicide. Remember, suicide is simply self-homicide; and just like other-homicides, suicides run the whole gamut of causes, from the justified to the unjustified, from the petty to the dramatic to the psychotic. Anybody who comes piping in with some generic theory about the suicide rate is simply confessing his own conceits, he is not shedding any light on the subject at hand.

  15. @Twinkie

    I think it’s being distant from family and relatives, lacking friendships, not having a religious community, etc. – not belonging to something larger and meaningful that empower them with a sense of greater purpose in life.

    Yes, and who is at the bottom of these things? Who seeks the destruction of all our heroes to purge from our minds the ideal of the transcendent? Our erstwhile conquerors.

    Do note Phil Giraldi’s article about the Memorials to Judah Benjamin.

    That said, I generally agree with Intelligent Dasein above me.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @iffen
  16. Twinkie says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    suicide is simply self-homicide

    No, it is not. There are different thresholds to killing oneself to killing others.

    suicides run the whole gamut of causes, from the justified to the unjustified

    There is no such thing as “justified suicide” (where as there are justified homicides, such as those in self-defense). You are certainly an “interesting” kind of Catholic to claim such a thing. Indeed the Church quite correctly views suicide as “self-murder,” not “self-homicide,” and it is a grave and mortal sin.

    simply confessing his own conceits, he is not shedding any light on the subject at hand.

    You are on a roll with self-descriptions lately.

  17. Twinkie says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Our erstwhile conquerors.

    You ascribe much power to these “conquerors,” and little, if at all, to free will and agency of the allegedly conquered.

  18. iffen says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Yes, and who is at the bottom of these things?

    “We have met the enemy and he is us.” ― Walt Kelly.

  19. @Twinkie

    Indeed. Twinkie has dropped another truth bomb on the negative nancies around here, most of whom are probably on the verge of suicide, themselves.

    Western Europeans also have the lowest rate of drug overdose deaths in the world:

    So we can see is that this is not a result of “defeat” or propaganda or any of the shit people are blabbering about here; since Europeans have the same riots, same governments, shittier economies, etc. Rather, three major defects in American culture largely explain the trend:

    1.) Widespread tolerance of recreational drug and alcohol use; a spirit of “let everybody do what they want”

    2.) Firearms: the USA is saturated with firearms, white males more likely than most other ethnies to have them. Firearms ownership being one of the strongest correlates with suicidal success.

    3.) Whites having way more middle aged people, most of them fat fucks with a myriad of health problems (greatly raises odds of dying from drugs and alcohol and suicide).

    Blacks have seen a decline in their suicide and substance abuse rates, which is remarkable and good news, but their overall mortality rate is still higher:

    https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2017/p0502-aa-health.html

    It’s likely that COVID-19 will have erased black gains in mortality, as well. They will likely have experienced the equivalent of several years worth of white people’s “deaths from despair” just due to being disproportionately affected by COVID.

    So cheer up Unz commenters, this is your opportunity to get back at the blacks and finally kick that heroin/estradiol habit!

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @dfordoom
  20. People who “want” to kill themselves are worth saving if you can help them with whatever is giving them reasons to want.

    If you’ve been there, you know. We who have gone through that can tell you.

    BTW, what’s with this “worth” shit? In a world of over seven billion cows, um, people, you can’t determine if any individual life is worth saving by any measurement you might come up with.

    But we know that each life — each consciousness — is something, and you are not capable of placing a value (i.e. price) on it.

    (Oh, and the vast majority of people shot by cops are indeed worthless, in fact less than worthless, a flat out negative against good lives, in fact. But you knew that already.)

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Dr. Krieger
  21. nebulafox says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    A family is a much more effective barrier against suicide than anything else because of who you’d be scarring. Men are a lot more likely to be completely isolated and at the margins of society-that’s just a fact of life-so it doesn’t shock me that there are more male suicides.

    Take it from someone who has been there… I don’t think it helps that most mental health treatments and emergency services are very geared to the conventional strengths of women: sit perfectly still and talk about your feelings. That’s not the optimal MO for most men. If you agree to be the dude’s gym partner for a week or agree to build something with him, my hunch is you’d be far more likely to prevent a suicide than talking about his feelings. Additionally, most suicidal guys are very aware of the fact that if they let people know they are suicidal, they’ll all of a sudden have people who previously couldn’t have cared less about them pretending that they are best friends out of the severe emotional compulsions that society drills into people about suicide. It’s very cynicism-inducing. Agree to go to the gym with the guy? You aren’t pretending to be his best friend off the block, but you are implying that you could use him for something: or at the very least, that you are willing to invest some time with him and thus might actually care that he doesn’t die rather than just not feeling guilty.

  22. Anon[247] • Disclaimer says:

    “Life goes on
    Long after the thrill
    of living is gone”

    John Mellencamp

    When men no longer believe in heaven or hell, and they are old and widowed……..

  23. neutral says:
    @Talha

    Are they that confident that they simply don’t care anymore?

    Well are they wrong in that confidence? They can do what they want with zero consequence for their actions.

  24. White right-wing men are likely to off themselves because they keep guns by the boatload.

    Just one more in a long list of reasons that my whitey fetish never extended to right-wing males.

    • Replies: @fish
  25. TG says:

    As with comment #1, while gun control would not reduce the homicide rate (witness sky high levels of homicide per-capita in gun-controlled Mexico), it would (for better or worse) reduce the suicide rate.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  26. anon[348] • Disclaimer says:
    @JohnPlywood

    The higher suicide rate among American Indians and whites is mostly attributable to the higher rate of gun ownership

    No, it is not.

    The culture of the US has much more to do with English and Western European culture than native

    “John Plywood” is just another troll / shill. Possibly paid to muddy comment streams.

    TG
    As with comment #1, while gun control would not reduce the homicide rate (witness sky high levels of homicide per-capita in gun-controlled Mexico), it would (for better or worse) reduce the suicide rate.

    No.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  27. res says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Thanks. For perspective there are about 10 million black males aged 15-54 based on this chart.
    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/30/most-common-age-among-us-racial-ethnic-groups/

    If we take the highest estimate for killing of unarmed black men by police I see for 2019 of 13:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/23/fact-check-how-many-unarmed-black-men-did-police-kill-2019/5322455002/
    And assume all of those killings were men aged 15-54 then we have 1.3 deaths per 100k population.

    Which would be barely visible on your chart. And less than a tenth of the self inflicted deaths for blacks that age. (but actually higher than I would have guessed)

  28. @Twinkie

    Guyana, huh? I hope that’s not just smoothed data that includes the nearly 1,000 people who drank the original Kool-Aid* in the Guyanan jungle at Jonestown in late 1978. That’d skew your results right quick. OTOH, if I lived in that part of S. America, I’d be contemplating suicide too.

    .

    * OK, to get technical and give props where they are due, it was Flavor-Aid brand. You don’t see it on the shelves anymore. Did the People’s Temple corner the market on that stuff, like the Hunt Brothers almost did with silver? No, I’m not stuck in the 1970s, why do you people keep thinking that!?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  29. @Erik Sieven

    Those are all good points. Thanks, Erik.

  30. @TG

    That’s no sure thing. There are plenty of substitutes more readily available than guns. Why not a bottle of aspirin or a dose of something else? If I were prone to this sort of thing (I’m not), I think I would use medicine. I have no idea why people want to make such a mess in their wake.

    As far as comment #1 goes, what’s missing is the effect of the firewater. Some call it alcohol. The Indians cannot handle the stuff, and between that, having guns around, and having a lost culture, you’ve gonna have these gun suicides. The way the Indians introduced the gun culture to the settlers of America was by being such a vicious threat to life and limb that all the pioneers had guns and learned to shoot.

  31. People kill themselves because they would rather be dead than alive. It’s sort of like voting for the lessor evil. Maybe White lives suck more than they used too. Or maybe White men only think their life sucks because that’s what they were taught in school. Or both.

    In any case, suicide is not a problem so much as it is a solution. The ultimate solution. I think of it as an option and value it as such.

    • Replies: @follyofwar
  32. @Twinkie

    Would you stop being a pussy with the scare quotes?

    All you have to do is read the New York Times to see the open celebration of white decline in the very top echelons of power. That is the attitude of a conqueror.

    Secondly, no, I do not ascribe “no” free will or agency to the average white or Christian (I say “Christian” because many blacks oppose the cultural revolution; but they get no screen time).

    Yes, it is, in fact, a two-way street. On the other hand, the philosophy of the liberal conquerors – taking Derrida for an example – claims that people have no agency when it comes to taking a stand for their community, because humans are supposedly incapable of discerning fundamental truth, and they are unable to struggle for transcendent ideals. The whole education and media complex of this state is designed to stop people from having agency. And then you act like it’s all the fault of the little people when they don’t stand up to it. As if social engineering is something you can’t grasp.

    You really expect me to believe that these people aren’t happy when Cervantes is attacked? There can be no more fitting symbol of the (((revolutionary))) hatred of idealism than to attack Cervantes.

    And for you to write “allegedly,” honestly, you infuriate me, Twinkie. While vicious criminals are allowed to destroy cultural monuments at their leisure, white people nationwide are prosecuted, doxxed, persecuted, and so forth when they do stand up to it without the support of the law (because the law, or at least the FBI, is on the side of the criminals). You really sicken me – how long will you wait before you quit pretending that the liberal elite is trying to destroy the vestigial remains of white people and Christian society?

  33. @iffen

    Apparently neither you nor Walt Kelly ever read First Thessalonians 2:13-16.

    There is nothing more indicative of having a mind colonized by liberalism than an unwillingness to acknowledge how conquest works as a two-sided process.

    • Replies: @iffen
  34. Eventually someone other than the FBI will start to weaponize these suicidal men

    The average Muslim suicide terrorist is an engineer with 4 kids and 1.5 wives i.e. they have plenty to live for

    Hello?

  35. @Rosie

    Yes, and the problem for many men in talking about their feelings is that the women in their lives lack the awareness to listen.

    Or they even maintain a (normally) unconscious campaign against them, so that such conversations and such support can always be unidirectional. She will always receive. If not support for her, then his compliments for her, wrapped as feelings.

    This naturally tends to apply to when such feelings are complicated or potentially negative in any way.

    In those cases, the woman will see the man’s feelings as a threat, make it about herself, and do anything and everything to shut such a conversation down. They may not even hear the man’s words at all, such is a lack of awareness.

    There will, if conscious, also, no doubt, be endless reasons why these are different, not like hers at all, and why they must be invalidated by hook or crook.

    Unsurprisingly, men respond to such incentives by closing up even more. So many of these suicides have a partner they share a bed with, how unperceptive must she have been?

    50/50, the sexes develop each other.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Jane Plain
  36. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    You really expect me to believe that these people aren’t happy when Cervantes is attacked? There can be no more fitting symbol of the (((revolutionary))) hatred of idealism than to attack Cervantes.

    Kooky theory…

    Jews hate Cervantes so much they wish he was Jewish.

    https://www.jpost.com/jewish-world/jewish-news/did-cervantess-family-have-jewish-roots-319468

  37. Rosie says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    In those cases, the woman will see the man’s feelings as a threat, make it about herself,

    There are ways of expressing yourself without triggering a defensive reaction, but it is a skill that must be learned. It doesn’t come naturally, at least not to everyone.

    And for what it’s worth, it seems that wives do a pretty decent job at preventing suicide, given that unmarried men are twice as likely to off themselves as married men.

    https://www.medscape.com/answers/2013085-157686/what-is-the-role-of-marital-status-in-the-development-of-suicidal-behaviors

    • Thanks: Jane Plain
    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  38. @Rosie

    There are ways of expressing yourself without triggering a defensive reaction, but it is a skill that must be learned.

    That’s the most common rationalisation for those lacking awareness.

    “It’s his fault that I always screamed at him for trying to share his feelings. (Now I divorced him and he killed himself, so he should have shared his feelings more, it is his fault.)”

    Assigning blame in the context of a domestic relationship is mostly stupid; except where one party cannot see how they have any responsibility at all, or other such extreme cases.

    It is a form of psychosis.

    If you don’t see that many men don’t share their vulnerabilities because many women hate them when they do, then you don’t see much about relationship dynamics at all.

    Of course, the men should be less narcistically afraid of hurting the women’s feelings by sharing theirs, as, no matter how much she catastrophises, she really isn’t having that bad a time at all. It is condescending to say otherwise.

    And that’s only two layers down something that can be peeled almost infinitely. Hence 50/50, and my newfound fear of you that you seemed to waive that away. Sorry, my fear is real, “power” always avoids responsibility by denying it has any power.

    And for what it’s worth, it seems that wives do a pretty decent job at preventing suicide, given that unmarried men are twice as likely to off themselves as married men.

    If you did an IQ test on men at Harvard, you’d hardly congratulate Harvard on making those men smart.

    You would, however, be extremely dismayed if you did that test, found out that they were smart, but then tested them after leaving Harvard, and found out that they had subsequently become far less smart than average.

    Married men may committ suicide less than single men, but divorced men do it much more often.

    • Agree: Cloudbuster
    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Jane Plain
  39. Twinkie says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    (((revolutionary)))

    Didn’t realize you were a “frog Nazi” – sorry I engaged you in a conversation.

    And just use “Jew” or “Jewish” instead of using the dumb ((())). You are not fooling anyone.

    And for the record, I am pretty angry about what’s happening in the country today, and as much as I am critical about Jews, I don’t see one in every shadow plotting to “destroy… white people.”

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  40. @Twinkie

    And just use “Jew” or “Jewish” instead of using the dumb ((())). You are not fooling anyone

    If he wrote his theories more clearly as “Jews hate idealism”, even he’d have to recognise how unworkable they are.

  41. @Twinkie

    I so agree Twinkie. I’ll add to that the enormous amount of young white men who are Incels. Millions of shy non-Alpha young men, who have few social skills, have little chance of finding a wife or even a girlfriend today. And it has surely become worse since this overblown plandemic has taken away their jobs, closed down all the nightlife, and forced them to stay at home. I guess they can always try their luck with online hook-ups, but I wouldn’t know about that.

    I’m glad that I’m a senior citizen, and am beginning to look forward to death. My wife and I have been looking forward to more travel, but that avenue has been shut off. Will the “new normal” ever permit it again? I’m very glad that I’m not a young white man today.

  42. Rosie says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Of course, the men should be less narcistically afraid of hurting the women’s feelings by sharing theirs,

    If sharing your feelings hurts someone else’s feelings, you’re doing it wrong, which is precisely my point.

    I guess this is just another one of those situations where men expect women to acknowledge things they (men) do better, but you are unwilling to admit your own weaknesses.

  43. @Rosie

    If sharing your feelings hurts someone else’s feelings, you’re doing it wrong, which is precisely my point.

    I guess this is just another one of those situations where men expect women to acknowledge things they (men) do better, but you are unwilling to admit your own weaknesses

    I’m sorry, it seems that you’re not able to get this at the moment. I don’t want to waste your time.

  44. @WorkingClass

    Much as suicide is the “ultimate solution,” I’d rather see white men go out fighting. At bottom, suicide in many or most instances is a cowardly act. Even if white men are defeated by the Mob, (which would include the government once Trump is defeated and the democrats take full control), would it not be better to go down on their feet defending themselves than bending a knee to their communist conquerors?

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @anon
  45. iffen says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    You must have been absent the day that The Bible study group covered these verses.

    Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

  46. For every black man killed by police, 10 black men kill themselves.

    Has anyone looked to disaggregate “suicides by cop” in these figures?

  47. @Achmed E. Newman

    That’s no sure thing. There are plenty of substitutes more readily available than guns. Why not a bottle of aspirin or a dose of something else? If I were prone to this sort of thing (I’m not), I think I would use medicine. I have no idea why people want to make such a mess in their wake.

    I agree that guns shouldn’t increase the rate of attempted suicide. As you say, there are plenty of different ways to try to do the job. What it may do is increase the rate of successful suicide. Hanging, intentional overdosing, cutting yourself, and all these other alternatives are very unreliable, while a gunshot is usually the end.

    To figure this out you’d also need to look at data on attempted suicide rates, and compare them.

  48. fish says:
    @Black woman

    Just one more in a long list of reasons that my whitey fetish never extended to right-wing males.

    WHEW…..dodged a bullet there!

  49. @Buzz Mohawk

    But we know that each life — each consciousness — is something, and you are not capable of placing a value (i.e. price) on it.

    (Oh, and the vast majority of people shot by cops are indeed worthless, in fact less than worthless, a flat out negative against good lives, in fact. But you knew that already.)

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone refute their own statement that quickly. From – Every life is priceless… To- Most shot by cops are worthless (which I agree with) in about 50 keystrokes.

    You outta be the subject of study, man.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  50. songbird says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Widespread tolerance of recreational drug and alcohol use

    Compared to Europe, America is puritanical about alcohol.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  51. Charlotte says:
    @Rosie

    If sharing your feelings hurts someone else’s feelings, you’re doing it wrong, which is precisely my point.

    I really don’t think it’s that simple. Hearing a loved one’s true feelings about yourself or something you care about can often be painful, and many people react to emotional pain by lashing out at the person causing them pain. I grew up in a dysfunctional family; I’ve seen this dynamic many times, from different angles.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  52. @songbird

    The United States is a multiracial country, ostensibly around 60% non-Hispanic white, a level of diversity that is unmatched by European countries. And the non-white minorities are less likely to drink than the white majority:

    https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/alcohol-and-hispanic-community

    Overall, Hispanics are less likely to drink at all than are non-Hispanic Whites. In fact, Hispanics have high rates of abstinence from alcohol. But Hispanics who choose to drink are more likely to consume higher volumes of alcohol than non-Hispanic Whites.

    Black Americans are also less likely to drink alcohol than non-Hispanic Americans:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3432983/

    Results of the present longitudinal study of African-American and White youth document increasing use of alcohol from ages 9–20, as well as changing preferences in alcoholic drinks, binge drinking and drunkenness, alcohol purchasing, peer norms, encouragement and offers of alcohol from friends, neighborhood alcohol problems and access, and drinking and driving. Many of the results differed by ethnic group, indicating that alcohol use is more common among Whites than African Americans. By the age of 20, most youth in the present study reported that they had used alcohol (about 87% of Whites and about 63% of African Americans).

    If we add up the sum of “white” American religious and ethnic minorities with very low rates of alcohol consumption (Arabs, Jews, primitive German religous sects and Mormons, etc), we get about 5-10% of the white population who are skimping out on alcohol consumption simply due to the fact that they are weirdly prohibitive or abstinent of alcohol compared with the white majority.

    In spite of this, America’s rate of alcohol mortality is comparable to Europe’s:

    https://ourworldindata.org/exports/death-rates-from-alcohol-use-disorders_v3_850x600.svg

    That it is slightly lesser than than Eastern Europe’s and Germany is no surprise, given the huge number of minorities
    who drink less than white core America. This topic is about white core America. It is likely that the alcohol problem among our whites is worse than it is for British whites or Germans.

    But yes, obviously Europe has a problem with alcohol. And it boggles the mind why white people continue to defend this utterly disastrous poison which does nothing positive, like infantile little shits who don’t want to stop sticking forks in electrical outlets. And the guns, and the drugs, and the shitty guitar music, and the tobacco, and the sordid mentality, and all the other disgusting barbaric shit that they stubbornly refuse to stop doing.

    However, the fact remains that white mortality in America is largely a result of white America’s cultural defects, not a “defeat”, or some such cop-out. And white Americans almost certainly fare worse on alcohol consumption than white Europeans. It was blacks, Asians and Hispanics who carried the team for white Americans on this one. Every white person reading this: go out and hug a black man after reading this comment. He is making you look better on paper than you really are.

  53. Rosie says:
    @Charlotte

    I really don’t think it’s that simple. Hearing a loved one’s true feelings about yourself or something you care about can often be painful, and many people react to emotional pain by lashing out at the person causing them pain. I grew up in a dysfunctional family; I’ve seen this dynamic many times, from different angles.

    Yes, this can happen. My point is simply that there are strategies for minimizing the impact, which NOW is completely unwilling to acknowledge, claiming rather that to even suggest the possibility that there are right ways and wrong ways to express oneself is “the most common rationalisation for those lacking awareness.”

    In my very experience, a few very simple, easy-to-remember tricks to make sensitive communications go more smoothly.

    Most importantly, you have to actually express your feelings rather than attack the other person. This tactic is commonly referred to as using “I-messages” and it really does work. Whether NOW wants to admit it or not, it really is harder for men to do this, because you have to reveal your own emotional vulnerabilities, which men are particularly reluctant to do. But with effort, they can learn.

  54. @Dr. Krieger

    LOL. Good catch.

    I believe both of my statements to be true, even though their juxtaposition is paradoxical.

    Did you ever hear of holding two thoughts in mind at once? I must be applying different standards to the two. Don’t we have a similar problem in the Declaration of Independence, where it says, “all men are created equal”?

    • Replies: @Dr. Krieger
  55. dfordoom says: • Website

    I’d really like to see stats on American male suicide rates by social class.

    How many of those white American men who kill themselves are corporate lawyers, CEOs, tenured academics, currency traders, senior bureaucrats or media elites?

    And how many are unemployed, or working class, or lower middle class on a downward socio-economic spiral?

    It isn’t always about race. I don’t believe that any white American males are killing themselves because of anti-white racism. But I do believe that many are killing themselves because of the never-ending class warfare of the elites against the non-elites.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Rosie
  56. dfordoom says: • Website
    @JohnPlywood

    There is no logical basis for describing white people as defeated.

    But there’s a very strong basis for describing the lower socio-economic classes as defeated.

  57. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Twinkie

    Personally, I think the real reason is that many whites have lost a sense of community and feel extremely isolated and alienated, and I think this is case even in areas with very few nonwhites, so “Diversity!” can’t be the sole (or a major) factor.

    I agree with you that Diversity can’t be the sole (or a major) factor.

    Maybe it’s just economic despair. Too much debt. Too many bills to pay that just can’t be paid. Mortgages that can’t be paid. The prospect of losing their house. And the prospect that if they lose the house they will probably lose the wife and never see their kids again.

    Maybe in many cases it’s the result of divorce.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Twinkie
  58. nebulafox says:
    @dfordoom

    >And how many are unemployed, or working class, or lower middle class on a downward socio-economic spiral?

    I have no data to confirm this, but I strongly suspect it’s most prominent in downwardly mobile men: the potential consequences of downward mobility being far steeper for men than women. I’m sure it gets worse the lower in the socioeconomic spectrum you fall, of course, but you need to have lost something, or at the very least know you could have been something but weren’t.

    If you are “nothing” and stood little chance of being anything else from the start, you are more likely to have accepted that and moved on with what you could have in life. If, on the other hand, you know viscerally what you’ve either lost or failed to achieve and have no way of recompensing that, choosing a quick end over decades of having “what could have been” rubbed in your face in an age of 24/7 social media really isn’t that crazy.

  59. Rosie says:
    @dfordoom

    I don’t believe that any white American males are killing themselves because of anti-white racism.

    Not directly, but a healthy sense of racial pride is probably somewhat protective when a person faces some catastrophic setback in life. Likewise with religion.

    Only rarely do people kill themselves as a direct result of losing their religion, but I would be surprised if, once having lost it, they are not much more vulnerable to suicidal ideation in the future.

    https://sntjohnny.com/front/reading-dawkinss-delusion-drives-christian-college-student-to-commit-suicide/404.html

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @iffen
    , @Thea
  60. dfordoom says: • Website
    @JohnPlywood

    Firearms: the USA is saturated with firearms, white males more likely than most other ethnies to have them. Firearms ownership being one of the strongest correlates with suicidal success.

    Agreed.

    When women try to commit suicide they usually use pills. Which means they’re not very likely to succeed. It’s quite difficult to successfully kill yourself with pills.

    When white American men decide to try to commit suicide they’re much more likely to use a gun. Which means they’re very very likely to succeed.

    So obviously gun ownership is a huge factor in the high rates of suicide among white American males.

  61. It should not escape notice that the overwhelming tendency here is to interpret suicide as the end result of something bad, e.g. despair, defeat, anomie, and so forth. The facts do not really bear out such an hermeneutic, however. These negative states are frequently felt and only very rarely conduce to suicide. The modern world has forgotten what the Church understood quite well in ages past, viz. that a great many suicides, certainly the majority, are actually prideful and melodramatic acts and are not brought about by intensely negative personal circumstances.

    Suicide is not really the self-contradiction of a person’s life but rather the elaboration of the kind of life he had been living before. The nihilistic streak was always there to be observed, most especially in what was erstwhile considered his “successes.” High-flying bankers like to throw themselves off buildings because that impetuous leap into the void has always been their preferred coping mechanism. Up until that point they had dealt with every challenge in life by running clear away from it, borrowing more money, and precipitously inventing a new narrative to explain everything away. When they were finally hemmed past the point of escape, that ledge appeared as a real and no less constructive solution. We must imagine that as they hurtled to their deaths they felt not despair but a genuine sense of exhilaration. It was the culmination of who they had always been.

    The disturbing thing about suicide is that by the time the doom settles upon one his soul actually wants it as a legacy of its past decisions.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @Old Palo Altan
  62. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosie

    a healthy sense of racial pride is probably somewhat protective when a person faces some catastrophic setback in life.

    That seems very very unlikely.

    A sense of pride in something meaningful, such as a sense of pride in belonging to a coherent ethnic or cultural group, might help a little.

    The problem with white racial pride is that the “white race” is just too abstract, too vague and too broad to matter to anyb0dy. For a sense of belonging to develop there has to be a shared history, a shared culture.

    You might just about be able to persuade me to feel some pride in my Anglo-Celtic heritage, or pride in being Australian, and you could certainly persuade me to feel pride in being working class, but you’ll never be able to persuade me to feel pride in merely being white. I don’t feel the slightest sense of connectedness to other people who just happen to be white.

    It would be like trying to tell a Japanese person that even if his life isn’t going too well he can at least feel pride in being Asian. It just isn’t going to mean anything to him. But tell him that he should feel proud to be Japanese and you might get somewhere.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  63. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Intelligent Dasein

    High-flying bankers like to throw themselves off buildings because that impetuous leap into the void has always been their preferred coping mechanism.

    The real tragedy is that so few high-flying bankers actually do throw themselves off buildings. Perhaps we should set up a kind of helpline for bankers thinking of doing that. When they say, “I’m thinking of throwing myself from the thirty-fifth floor” they could be told, “Do it! Do it now! Go for it!”

    • Replies: @Talha
  64. Rosie says:
    @dfordoom

    The problem with white racial pride is that the “white race” is just too abstract, too vague and too broad to matter to anyb0dy. For a sense of belonging to develop there has to be a shared history, a shared culture.

    Except that there are all sorts of people for whom it very clearly does matter to a lot of people. Otherwise, there would be no need for the constant guilt propaganda.

    And we certainly do have a shared history. We were all born in Greece.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  65. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    I don’t feel the slightest sense of connectedness to other people who just happen to be white.

    I empathize since I feel about as much connection to any random person labeled “brown”…

    Peace.

  66. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    Maybe in many cases it’s the result of divorce.

    I recently came across a very heart wrenching and visceral message that a brother posted to his ex-wife. These are not isolated cases:

    If he didn’t have some hope that he would be able to appeal to some level of justice (even in the afterlife), I could totally see him becoming despondent and suicidal.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Rosie
  67. nebulafox says:
    @Talha

    Divorce courts in the US are notoriously rough on the male partner. That’s why so many men my age are very cautious about marriage and pursue pre-nups. Wrong woman, and you are toast without previously arranged legal protection. I saw enough of this as a child to be extremely sympathetic to fathers screwed over by divorce, often by wives who were responsible for the marriage’s destruction in the first place.

    Good to hear that he’s grounded in faith, but that doesn’t mean that he can’t use some help in the here and now. Remember my post that you liked yesterday? If you live near him, you know what to do, if not, go find somebody who does. Find out what appeals, preferably something physical where you can visibly see progress, and get busy. That’s how men were meant to deal with depression: and getting something done would be a great stimulant to get his brain in a state where he can rationally think of plans to get contact with his kids. Take it from someone of my generation: the kids are usually very aware when one of their parents is a manipulative liar who is trying to harm the other in a divorce.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Talha
    , @Talha
  68. Twinkie says:
    @dfordoom

    Maybe it’s just economic despair.

    People were in all sorts of terrible economic despair in the American past and didn’t kill themselves in such percentages.

    People are not economic animals. They are social animals. People go insane in isolation. So I really think that much of this is due to the destruction of the sense of community, which I think is particularly pronounced among “generic” whites (“ethnic” whites and white immigrants are more immune, because they still rely on ties of communities, real or imagined). People need to belong and work toward a shared destiny (where leftists go wrong is in the scale of the community – a real community, a tribe, cannot be scaled up without destroying the very cohesion that makes such a community valuable – the platoons have to be little, indeed).

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @dfordoom
  69. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    We were all born in Greece.

    Most American whites hail from Northwestern Europe. Reference to the “ancestral” Ancient Greek and Roman civilizations is ideological cooption, not biological ancestry.

    One major problem with an imagined community is that when the constituent members start imagining differently, the community evaporates quickly. That’s why shared culture and religion are critical to sustaining such a constructed community.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
  70. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    but a healthy sense of racial pride is probably somewhat protective

    So hard core racists should work to destroy the social construction that is the black race?

  71. Rosie says:
    @nebulafox

    Divorce courts in the US are notoriously rough on the male partner.

    A bogus excuse.

    • Disagree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  72. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    I am very skeptical of such tales of woe, Talha. Ex-wives do not have the power to cut men off from their kids. The right to visitation with one’s children is as absolute under the US Constitution as the right to a fair trial, to own a gun, etc. (You can thank Justice O’Connor’s penumbras for that!)

    Any custodial parent who attempts to thwart visitation risks becoming a noncustodial parent.

    • Replies: @Talha
  73. @Buzz Mohawk

    I think it should go without saying, that “all men” basically meant all Englishmen or possibly all European Christian men. Though reading statements by the likes of Franklin, I’m not even sure they meant all Europeans. Some very low opinions of Germans and Mediterranean types among the Founders.

  74. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    This isn’t the first time I have come across a situation where a woman lied about physical abuse or drugs or other things in order to get the court to side with her and keep the father out of their lives. I don’t think this happens a lot, but it’s also not unheard of.

    Peace.

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @anon
  75. Talha says:
    @nebulafox

    Divorce courts in the US are notoriously rough on the male partner.

    I’ve known most divorces (that I’ve come across) to end amicably and with the parents both still involved in the children’s lives and moving on, but there are definitely some men getting railroaded when the former wife decides to go rogue and the courts basically side with her:

    In my experience, these are not the majority of cases (since most women are thankfully not manipulative psychopaths), but it happens enough to warrant attention.

    If you live near him, you know what to do, if not, go find somebody who does.

    I don’t know who he is, nor where he is. This was posted by a brother who does a lot of research into how creeping feminism is damaging Muslim families in the West. Many guys reach out to him so he has noted this is an “increasing” trend. But, yes, I agree that your recommendations are good advice.

    Peace.

  76. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    This isn’t the first time I have come across a situation where a woman lied about physical abuse or drugs or other things in order to get the court to side with her and keep the father out of their lives. I don’t think this happens a lot, but it’s also not unheard of.

    That women lie I don’t doubt, and not because women are particularly deceitful, but simply because of human nature. The problem is that I don’t think lying is very effective. Most liars simply cannot keep their story straight under cross-examination, not to mention the fact that fathers can easily disprove drug abuse allegations by submitting to testing. Physical abuse has to be proven. Without medical documentation, this is going to be difficult.

    I think there are numerous reasons why fathers’ relationships with their kids break down post divorce. At least sometimes, the divorce is the father’s fault, and seeing his children is a painful reminder of what he has done. If there is a homewrecker involved, she may not want the father visiting the children for fear that such visitation might be conducive to a reconciliation with the ex-wife. When visitation is inconsistent, custodial parents become resistant, because no-shows often cause the child considerable emotional distress which the custodial parent then has to deal with. This can even interfere with the child’s academic performance.

    More data is desperately needed to ascertain the causes of divorce and post-dissolution dysfunction. A fair system is good for everyone. Lord knows, I certainly don’t want to be put out of my future grandchildren’s lives by a bad ex-wife.

    • Replies: @Talha
  77. Talha says:
    @nebulafox

    Also, if interested, this was a great breakdown of the three tiers of male relationships, how male friendships are forged and under what conditions. Goes along the lines of what you stated; “find out what appeals, preferably something physical where you can visibly see progress, and get busy.”

    I remember recently one of the best experiences I had with a bunch of brothers was when we did a clean up of a construction site where a new mosque was being built; there was purpose, camaraderie, it was physically tasking…after it was done, we saw a task with definitive goals (with spiritual rewards), that needed to be completed on a timeline, get done and we were all dirty and muddy (and even bleeding a little) and the coolest part were that some of us had teenage sons that were old enough to be involved. I remember I lifted something in a really stupid way that strained a muscle that didn’t recover for almost three months, but I look back on those days and it was such a positive event. I think men need this more in their lives. Sports are good, but these kinds of things are more purposeful than sports.

    Peace.

  78. @Not Only Wrathful

    You dodged Rosie’s main point:

    And for what it’s worth, it seems that wives do a pretty decent job at preventing suicide, given that unmarried men are twice as likely to off themselves as married men.

    I suppose there’s a way to blame this on “women.” Show us the way.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  79. @Twinkie

    It seems to me that the most probable common denominator is alcohol abuse.

    Bingo.

    But that leads to the question, “why do some men drink to excess”?

    Also, what kind of women kill themselves? This might help to shed light on why men kill themselves. My guess would be that alcohol abuse is also a factor in female suicide.

    • Replies: @Toronto Russian
  80. @Not Only Wrathful

    Yes, and the problem for many men in talking about their feelings is that the women in their lives lack the awareness to listen.

    Actually, the problem for many men is that they have no women in their lives to talk to.

    Gay men have very high suicide rates, although I have no stats to offer. Maybe AE does.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  81. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    More data is desperately needed to ascertain the causes of divorce and post-dissolution dysfunction. A fair system is good for everyone.

    Agree and agree.

    Peace.

  82. @Jane Plain

    I wrote clearly. You can re-read it.

    I won’t be drawn into another conversation with someone who tells me I’m the one only blaming one sex whereas I keep saying sexual dynamics are 50/50 and the sexes interdependently create each other.

    Since both you and Rosie seemingly can’t read words in front of you, you both lack strength of awareness in this. I am not able to teach this skill, go practice yoga or something.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Jane Plain
  83. anon[209] • Disclaimer says:
    @follyofwar

    Read this somewhere once upon a time:
    Suicide isn’t usually the result of some conscious decision, but a breakthrough of emotion so overwhelming that the person can’t resist the urge to immediately kill himself.
    Was told by Indians [Buddhists] that Muslim religious organisations in remote areas of Pakistan bring orphans up from early childhood with the sole aim of creating suicide bombers. All the rest are people whose families are being held hostage.

  84. anon[209] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    It happens a lot, boy, don’t you worry about that.
    It just doesn’t get reported on anywhere.
    Don’t believe me? Head off down to the Family Court and sit in on a few Trials.
    You’ll see the same female lawyers presenting the same Case to the same Judge, just with a different client each time.
    It’s a real eye opener.

  85. @Intelligent Dasein

    “just like other-homicides, suicides run the whole gamut of causes”

    A long time ago I read a memoir of a London police officer from pre-diverse days, one of whose duties was to accompany the river patrol which (inter alia) pulled suicides from the Thames. The hands and nails of those slighted in love, unlike those of bankrupts or the disgraced, were torn and bleeding where they’d desperately tried to cling to bridges, obviously having changed their minds. A valuable lesson for us all – “she’s not worth it!” where ‘it’ is your life.

    “some generic theory about the suicide rate “

    I think it’s a pretty fair guess that a defeated people given access to drugs, welfare and alcohol will have a high suicide rate. I wonder if there are any stats or even anecdotes about suicide in North America before Europeans came.

    Some defeated peoples have refused to be defeated – the Palestinians, the Irish Travellers, who are now thought to be descended from those dispossessed during the Plantation of Ulster. I bet both have a low suicide rate – bombings excepted.

    The destruction of white Christian culture in both the US and UK has also increased suicides, in that suicide was very much looked down on in Christianity, as the destruction of God’s gift of life. Attempting suicide was a criminal offence in the UK until the 1960s, and in 19th century Britain suicides were buried outside consecrated ground, sometimes at a crossroads with a stake through their heart.

    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Grave_By_The_Handpost_(Hardy)

    I was a child in the last years of Christian Britain, and I heard of no teenage suicides. In the last 15 years half a dozen young people have killed themselves within a ten mile radius, including two classmates of my children.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @Toronto Russian
  86. @Rosie

    https://freekeene.com/2011/06/16/thomas-james-ball-self-immolated-in-protest-of-the-justice-system/

    “You are using the old First Set of Books- the Constitution, the general laws or statutes and the court ruling sometime call Common Law. They are using the newer Second Set of Books. That is the collection of the policy, procedures and protocols. Once you know what set of books everyone is using, then everything they do looks logical and upright.”

    • Replies: @Rosie
  87. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Twinkie

    People were in all sorts of terrible economic despair in the American past and didn’t kill themselves in such percentages.

    I think another commenter (sorry I’ve forgotten which one) nailed it when he said that the big thing that causes economic despair is sliding down the socioeconomic scale. So during the Depression (for example) there were people suffering economic hardship but they were often pretty poor to begin with, so they could deal with it.

    But in recent times we’ve seen people going from prosperity and relatively high socio-economic status to poverty and significantly lowered socio-economic status (which means significantly worse long-term prospects). That’s the sort of thing that hits men hard.

    Also when you look at previous economic hard times people assumed those hard times were temporary. The Great Depression was terrible but there’d been depressions before, followed by economic recovery. People figured they were in for a few years of financial suffering but that eventually things would get better. The jobs would come back.

    But today a lot of people believe that for them the financial hardship is likely to be permanent. The jobs are not going to come back.

  88. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Twinkie

    People are not economic animals. They are social animals. People go insane in isolation. So I really think that much of this is due to the destruction of the sense of community, which I think is particularly pronounced among “generic” whites (“ethnic” whites and white immigrants are more immune, because they still rely on ties of communities, real or imagined).

    Yes, I agree with that.

    You don’t actually need a community. If you have one person on whom you know you can rely that can be enough. But on the whole I agree with you.

    People need to belong and work toward a shared destiny (where leftists go wrong is in the scale of the community – a real community, a tribe, cannot be scaled up without destroying the very cohesion that makes such a community valuable – the platoons have to be little, indeed).

    Yes, I agree with that too. Very strongly agree in fact.

    That’s why I think it’s futile for people to go on about white racial solidarity. The “white race” is much too big and too loose to be meaningful to people. Small scale community in which the members of the community actually have something in common – that’s much more valuable.

    Where we might possibly differ is that I don’t think that these small-scale communities need to be “traditional” or based on religion. Or even necessarily a shared culture. But they do need to be based on interests in common and some shared sense of identity.

    • Replies: @Talha
  89. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    But they do need to be based on interests in common and some shared sense of identity.

    Geographic proximity? Neighborhood?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  90. dfordoom says: • Website
    @YetAnotherAnon

    A long time ago I read a memoir of a London police officer from pre-diverse days, one of whose duties was to accompany the river patrol which (inter alia) pulled suicides from the Thames. The hands and nails of those slighted in love, unlike those of bankrupts or the disgraced, were torn and bleeding where they’d desperately tried to cling to bridges, obviously having changed their minds.

    I remember reading that in the poet A. Alvarez’s extremely interesting (non-fiction) book on suicide, The Savage God.

    “just like other-homicides, suicides run the whole gamut of causes”

    That’s something I very much doubt. I suspect that there are actually only a very small number of things that will drive a person to suicide. The things that drive men to suicide are probably not quite the same things that drive women to suicide but in the case of both sexes I suspect that the overwhelming majority of suicides can be attributed to two or three things.

    I don’t believe that being a “defeated people” is one of those things. Suicide is a very personal matter. Nobody commits suicide because of something that has happened to his community or his people or his nation or his culture or his civilisation. He commits suicide because of something that he finds personally devastating.

  91. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    But they do need to be based on interests in common and some shared sense of identity.

    Geographic proximity? Neighborhood?

    Definitely not.

    As much as I deplore the whole LGBT thing I remember once a lesbian friend saying to me that one of the great things about being a lesbian is that she could go to any city in the world and all she’d have to do is go to the first lesbian bar she could find and she would have an instant social network in that city. And she’d have herself a new girlfriend within a few days.

    I suspect it used to be the same for Marxists, or Trotskyists. If you were a Trotskyist from London and you moved to Melbourne all you’d need to do is find the local Trotskyist bookstore. You would then have an open door to every Trotskyist group in the city. Your social network was ready made. And you’d have an excellent chance of finding a nice Trotskyist girlfriend.

  92. @Jane Plain

    Actually, the problem for many men is that they have no women in their lives to talk to

    They have women in their lives, alnost everyone has some, they just don’t feel safe sharing with them.

    • Replies: @Jane Plain
  93. @Intelligent Dasein

    Entirely true and classically expounded.
    And therefore never preached, because neither believed nor even conceivable to the empty brains of the Catholic clergy of today and, lo, these past fifty years.

  94. Rosie says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    YAN,

    You must understand, when the injustices pile up on top of one another, they become exponentially more difficult to believe.

    First, I’m told that the wife gets the house, child support, and the kids even though she divorced a perfectly good husband for no reason.

    Having gotten a sweet deal, she then risks it all by not allowing a father to see his kids, aggravating the judge and possibly losing primary custody.

    I’m sorry, but that is the sort of proposition that requires extraordinary proof.

    The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that the secularization of marriage was unfortunate. Men clearly have no confidence whatsoever in the system, and the system is therefore arguably illegitimate on that basis alone.

    I wonder how Muslim men fare in religious courts. I doubt they fare much better than in secular courts, but having respect for religious authorities, they probably trust the system more.

  95. Rosie says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    I won’t be drawn into another conversation with someone who tells me I’m the one only blaming one sex whereas I keep saying sexual dynamics are 50/50 and the sexes interdependently create each other

    I’m skeptical of this for a number of reasons, probably because I only ever hear this argument used to deflect any criticism of men (even of the most well-meaning and constructive kind) and never the other way around.

    But more importantly, it’s not really particularly helpful, even if true. In some sense, I’ll certainly allow that it’s not men’s fault they struggle with positive marital communications more than women. But then fault is beside the point. What is needed are solutions and consistent effort.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  96. @Rosie

    Hopeless!

    He’s too scared to talk to you about his feelings and therefore he’s too scared to say he is scared.

    And no wonder, I’d be the same..look how this thread has gone.

    You’ve not listened or asked a single genuine question. Just attacked or invalidated or misrepresented.

    Were in your position I’d be fascinated to find out. You literally have a man talking to you about feelings, which you say men don’t do, completely openly, and you just dismiss them out of hand.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  97. @Rosie

    I wonder how Muslim men fare in religious courts. I doubt they fare much better than in secular courts, but having respect for religious authorities, they probably trust the system more

    Muslim women move in with their mother-in-law, where their husband’s family treats them like a domestic servant. But worse, as one Muslims girl told me, as they don’t get paid or treated with respect.

    Without secular courts, they simply wouldn’t be allowed to leave and certainly wouldn’t get the house or kids if they did.

    It is a very cruel to women system.

    The cycle is: men are spoiled by their mothers, who spoil them because they are rejected by their husbands and need some love. The mothers then hate their daughter-in-law, who they have total power over. The sons end up doing the same because no adult women with any self-respect will be as nice to the man as his entirely emotionally dependent mother. And so it goes on, generation after generation.

    • Replies: @Talha
  98. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    I wonder how Muslim men fare in religious courts. I doubt they fare much better than in secular courts,

    Knowing some of the way the legal rulings work (mostly from the Hanafi school) – their are rulings that would seem leaning towards the husband in one context while their are other rulings that would seem to favor the wife in another context – at least from a secular perspective.

    but having respect for religious authorities, they probably trust the system more.

    This is key. When it has the stamp of authority of God, then one accepts the outcome:
    “It is not becoming for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.” (33:36)

    This also allows private funding of these courts to adjudicate civil matters so that not everyone has to be financially nor morally responsible for their decisions.

    Peace.

  99. Talha says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Muslim women move in with their mother-in-law, where their husband’s family treats them like a domestic servant.

    The rules that have been clearly outlined by the ulema:
    For example, it is not necessary upon the wife to cook for or serve her parents in-law…Coming to your question, In the Hanafi school, the wife has a right to live (and demand to live) separately. It is the duty and responsibility of the husband to provide her with shelter (suknah). This shelter must, if she demands so, be free from the interference of any of the husband’s family.
    Imam al-Haskafi states in Durr al-Mukhtar:
    ‘It is necessary for the husband to provide the wife with a shelter (home) that is free from his and her family members…. taking into consideration both their economic standings. A separate quarter within the house that has a lock, separate bathroom and kitchen will be (minimally) sufficient.’…
    https://seekersguidance.org/answers/hanafi-fiqh/a-wifes-right-to-housing-seperate-from-her-in-laws/

    Unfortunately – as the article mentions, there is a convergence of lack of knowledge about Islamic guidelines among many people and many assume their cultural practices have the backing of the sacred law, which is simply a mistaken understanding.

    It is a very cruel to women system.

    What you have described is indeed.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  100. @Not Only Wrathful

    I won’t be drawn into another conversation with someone

    Fine, buzz off then.

    I keep saying

    Excuse me that I haven’t looked up your entire history of commenting.

    • Troll: Not Only Wrathful
  101. Anonymous[872] • Disclaimer says:

    I noticed this with many conservatives, especially white men.

    They have internalized this notion that everything is bad, everything is evil. Like “we live in such a degenerate society I hate it!” and this seeps into their every day life, slowly making them depressed.

    So smile, make a good life for yourself. Embrace the modern world, don’t be afraid of it.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @dfordoom
  102. @Not Only Wrathful

    I won’t be drawn into another conversation with someone

    Says you at 4:24 PM GMT

    They have women in their lives, alnost everyone has some, they just don’t feel safe sharing with them.

    Says you at 11:03 PM GMT

    • Troll: Not Only Wrathful
  103. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    I noticed this with many conservatives, especially white men.

    They have internalized this notion that everything is bad, everything is evil. Like “we live in such a degenerate society I hate it!” and this seeps into their every day life, slowly making them depressed.

    So smile, make a good life for yourself. Embrace the modern world, don’t be afraid of it.

    I think it’s true that social conservatives and the far right do often exaggerate the ills of modern society. This leads to the attitude that, “it’s so hopeless we just need to burn everything down” or “things are so bad we need civil war even if it kills millions of people” or “I hope everything collapses and then we can go back to living virtuous lives based on subsistence agriculture and the Bible.”

    It also paralyses them and makes them unable to struggle to change things that maybe could be changed.

    The modern world is much worse than the world of the past in some ways, and much better in other ways. But social conservatives and the far right just can’t see the positives at all.

    You see this in their attitude towards almost everything. Globalism for example. Globalism has been very bad in some ways, and very good in other ways. Speaking from an Australian perspective globalism has on the whole been a net positive. Even the poor in Australia are materially much better off than they were half a century ago. And life is much richer in other ways. Australia was depressingly provincial and grey 50 years ago. There have been costs, and there have been benefits.

    The sensible approach to the modern world is to try to ameliorate the many negatives without sacrificing the positives.

    We are heading towards greater social conformity, even to the extent of soft totalitarianism, and that needs to be fiercely resisted. But to resist it successfully we need to engage with the modern world rather than completely rejecting it and retreating into a fantasy world in which magical solutions (such as the return of Christendom) will one day solve everything.

    The Far Right is the mirror image of the Social Justice Left. Both see the world as a stark choice between good and evil. Neither is capable of seeing any nuance. Neither is capable of understanding the need for compromise.

    • Replies: @Thea
    , @Anonymous
  104. anon[197] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    No matter how obstinate a woman is in refusing to let the dad see his kids, a Judge will very rarely reverse Residence [Custody].
    Here’s one example I know of: the mother’s allegation was that she had witnessed the father sexually abuse one of the daughters on a particular date in Eastern Queensland.
    On that basis, she was awarded Residence.
    The father was then able to present to the Court photographic Evidence of him withdrawing cash from an ATM on that date in Perth, 3,000 miles away.
    Obviously the mother was lying, and Residence was reversed, though that wasn’t the end of the mother’s attempts to regain Residence.
    That’s an outlier though, reversal is quite rare.

  105. Thea says:
    @Rosie

    Not racial pride but rather a sense of community and belonging to a group. Church can fill this role. Or a small town where one’s family has lived for generations. This is likely to include people all of the same race but that isn’t the basis of a meaningful bond.

  106. Thea says:
    @dfordoom

    Yes

    The fantasists here that imagine complete separate and a new segregation are going to get a lot of us killed if they were to go down that road. We need to learn to make this strange, contradictory, multicultural society work. It won’t be perfect, it isn’t my first choice and it won’t be like the past but it is survivable.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @Mr. Rational
  107. @YetAnotherAnon

    I wonder if there are any stats or even anecdotes about suicide in North America before Europeans came.

    “It is important to note that before the 19th century suicide was extremely rare in North American Native communities. The culture shock that ensued with the arrival of the European explorers coupled with the institutionalized racism inherent in the Canadian government’s policies, resulted in a steady increase of suicide in the 20th century which has continued until the present day.”
    https://www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/indigenoussuicide/

    Considering Canada, male suicides in Quebec have been falling consistently since 1999.

    In Alberta they were at the highest in 1986 (the first year of available data) and 1991, fell until 2005, then grew. The numbers on the graph are mortality rate, not total numbers.

    In Brisish Columbia there was a spike in 2014 (382 to 488 male suicides), and a slow fall since then, to 424 in 2018. Only total numbers are available (the population of BC likely grew a little, thus decreasing the rate).

    We can see the steady increase in the US is quite unique and not shared by their most culturally close neighbor. What will you make of it?

  108. Anonymous[872] • Disclaimer says:
    @dfordoom

    Agreed. I live in a very vibrant area, in fact it is only 30% white and my city is <50% white.

    Being relatively wealthy and white, it's actually a blessing to live in this area. In fact, I've never had a non-white, be it Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, or Arab, bitch at me for being white, or scream for more abortions or climate change. You can guess which group has done this. Non-pozzed, non-redneck white men are at the top of the dating pole. Despite the cries of muh white supremacy, every brown girl wants to be riding a white dick

    Downsides are atomization, lack of community, and general loss of western IQ which suggests to me that this area will eventually turn into a slum. And I admit that this is probably alot worse for the white working class, who have been moved out. The white working class needs to band together and create its own populist movement.

    But life is still good. The middle class white conservatives who whine about everything wouldn't have been successful in the 1950s either. It's just a cope so they can feel safe about their lack of social and sexual success.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  109. @Jane Plain

    Also, what kind of women kill themselves? This might help to shed light on why men kill themselves. My guess would be that alcohol abuse is also a factor in female suicide.

    There are some age stats. Women in their 50s have the highest suicide rate (just as men), while for teenagers and the elderly it’s about equally low. 15 to 19-year-old girls dwarf every other group by attempts, but that fortunately doesn’t result in many actual deaths. Men’s suicide rate decreases in their 60s and 70s (but never gets as low as for teenage boys) and grows again after 80, but not everywhere. In British Columbia, for example, the 80+ age group has the same, very low suicide rate as the 10-18 age group for both sexes.

    Being Native American and especially a native of the Arctic is the biggest ethnic factor for female suicide. Living in a big city significantly lowers both suicide and attempt risk.
    That doesn’t square with the social alienation theory – but maybe it’s just a result of cities having many immigrants.

  110. @Talha

    Best of luck persuading other Muslims that your (seemingly very thin) argument is the true one. It would substantially reduce human suffering.

    Nonetheless, as always with the “Islam is actually not about all these unpleasant things that Muslims do” lines of reasoning, it goes against the observation that the more into Islam someone is, the more likely they are to act in these nasty ways.

    Except for children (and maybe not even for them), I’m not going to push that you should tell people what is moral and then they’ll do it; instead they’ll probably use it to justify their most monstrous excesses. That’s why Islam, with its simplistic prohibitions, is not for me.

    Instead, I feel that whole, aware people will naturally be good, not because of some abstract argument, though they might make one up afterwards, but because they are benevolent and strong in spirit. As everyone actually is, but in these cases their consciousness is in tune with their spirit, rather than lost in artificial moral dictates.

    Having said that, I’d guess there’s a part of Islam that’s in line with my vision. There normally is in any spiritual conglomeration, but it certainly doesn’t see to be the case for the vast bulk of what fervent Muslims adhere to.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AaronB
  111. Talha says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    that your (seemingly very thin) argument is the true one.

    It’s only thin for people who haven’t studied this religion in any depth. The scholarship cited in that article is unassailable; men like Imam Ibn Abidin (ra) are the go to fatwa reference in the largest school of Islamic jurisprudence (the Hanafi school). The scholar who wrote the article is a mufti that I personally attended an intensive course on regarding the Islamic rules of marriage and divorce. He himself is a student of Mufti Taqi Uthmani, who was just selected as the most influential Muslim on the planet.

    If some illiterate “auntie” in Peshawar has no clue about what Islam demands of rights and obligations of husbands and wives, then that is a issue of education, not doctrine or praxis.

    it goes against the observation that the more into Islam someone is, the more likely they are to act in these nasty ways.

    Hardly. I have studied Islam for over a decade with qualified scholars. I certainly don’t run my household like that since I know both my rights and obligations as a husband. My wife is a white convert and has studied even more than me – she knows both her rights and obligations according to the sacred law. Why don’t you ask your Muslim acquaintance how much formal knowledge of Islam the people she is talking about have.

    So no, the reality is that there is an inverse relationship between the knowledge of Islam someone has and their propensity to act or run their households in the manner you described.

    That’s why Islam, with its simplistic prohibitions, is not for me.

    That’s fine – that’s not the discussion here; I’m simply clearing the air on doctrine.

    but because they are benevolent and strong in spirit.

    The sacred law is there to define the boundaries for those that may be personally lacking these internal mechanisms in those very cases when they may be angry or otherwise be in a position to take away someone else’s rights. Why? Because, even if they can get away with it in this world, the Divine is observing and will take them to task:
    “O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do.” (4:135)

    “O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just! That is next to piety – and fear Allah. For Allah is Well-Acquainted with all that you do.” (5:8)

    it certainly doesn’t see to be the case for the vast bulk of what fervent Muslims adhere to.

    I guess it really depends on who these “fervent Muslims” are that you have labeled as such.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  112. AaronB says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Having said that, I’d guess there’s a part of Islam that’s in line with my vision.

    Sufism. The great Sufis were opposed to mainstream Islam in most respects. Some Sufis even denied they were Muslims.

    Instead, I feel that whole, aware people will naturally be good, not because of some abstract argument, though they might make one up afterwards, but because they are benevolent and strong in spirit. As everyone actually is, but in these cases their consciousness is in tune with their spirit, rather than lost in artificial moral dictates.

    The basic position of Taoism. And to some extent Buddhism.

    • Thanks: Not Only Wrathful
  113. @Talha

    The sacred law is there to define the boundaries for those that may be personally lacking these internal mechanisms in those very cases when they may be angry or otherwise be in a position to take away someone else’s rights. Why? Because, even if they can get away with it in this world, the Divine is observing and will take them to task:

    It feels clear to me that by empowering the false ego, these strictures are used to impose suffering, even while, when painfully articulated and studied, they may end up as a simulacrum of what the benevolent spirit would do naturally.

    • Replies: @Talha
  114. Talha says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    It feels clear to me that by empowering the false ego

    There is no empowering of the false ego; the sacred law is pretty clear about the need to bring one’s ego into check and bring into conformity with the Divine Will. However, not everyone is able to (nor sometimes willing to) devote the time and energy into working to bring this reality about. We still have to deal with those people in the world.

    these strictures are used to impose suffering

    Laws are there to prevent harm from those that are likely to break the law. I don’t lock my door at night to protect my home from law-abiding citizens. We fine the kinds of people who would carelessly park their car in a handicap spot NOT those who naturally abstain from it out of courtesy.

    what the benevolent spirit would do naturally.

    Some don’t have a benevolent spirit and it needs to be reigned in otherwise:
    There are those who are strong and they will take advantage of the weak and they have to be reminded that there is One over them that can take them to task for it.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  115. @Talha

    There is no empowering of the false ego; the sacred law is pretty clear about the need to bring one’s ego into check and bring into conformity with the Divine Will.

    Since the divine will is creation, and people are part of that, if they follow their true spirit then it will accord with the divine will. What you call “sacred law” is a confusing abstraction that most often rationalised to avoid this.

    The way the world has actually unfolded speaks to this perfectly.

    Laws are there to prevent harm from those that are likely to break the law. I don’t lock my door at night to protect my home from law-abiding citizens. We fine the kinds of people who would carelessly park their car in a handicap spot NOT those who naturally abstain from it out of courtesy.

    Yes, a world full of confused and less than fully conscious people, will need enforcement of laws, but reifying the law above consciousness is counter-productive, except maybe, for the very young.

    Some don’t have a benevolent spirit and it needs to be reigned in otherwise

    If he wasn’t so defensive and could open himself up, he would have realised that he was one with those he was scattering and the greatest violence he was doing was to himself.

    You might call him strong and he was, but only in an egotistical way, really he was closed, guarded, confused and far too weak.

    You can reason yourself into thinking you feel good at someone else’s pain, or you can shroud your own pain at seeing it, but, at root, your pain is equal to theirs. You might not have the strength to face up to this and may, instead, choose to inflate your ego, but that’s not strength or true virtue.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @Talha
  116. Talha says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    if they follow their true spirit then it will accord with the divine will.

    How does one know when they are following their true spirit? How does one know that this will automatically align with what the Divine expects of them?

    he would have realised that he was one with those he was scattering and the greatest violence he was doing was to himself.

    I guess it depends on perspective; I don’t see how he was doing greater violence to himself than thousands of women and children that weren’t slaughtered or burned or whatever in the wake of his conquests. This seems kind of like “everyone is really equally a victim at root”; should we take this seriously?

    but, at root, your pain is equal to theirs.

    He stated that their pain made him happy; why shouldn’t we take his statement at face value?

    Peace.

  117. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Thea

    We need to learn to make this strange, contradictory, multicultural society work. It won’t be perfect, it isn’t my first choice and it won’t be like the past but it is survivable.

    Yep.

    The important thing is to overcome the sense of isolation that so many people feel. Almost any shared interest can do that. If you’re a gardening fanatic and you join a gardening club you’ll find other people with whom you have at least something in common. You have the basis for a social network. You will make friends. With luck you’ll make one or two close friends. You might even find a nice gardening fanatic of the opposite sex and that could lead to wedding bells (it’s been known to happen).

    Traditionalists and racialists will object that such communities are not organic and not permanent. Who cares? You work with what you’ve got. Any social network is better than none. And once you find a social network, no matter how inorganic it might be, you learn social skills. If the gardening club goes belly up you ask yourself what other passions you might have. Maybe you’ve always had a yen to do amateur theatrics. So you join an amateur dramatic society. Since you’ve already picked up social skills and confidence in the gardening club the chances are very good that you’ll make friends in the amateur dramatic society.

    The main reason people feel isolated is usually lack of confidence. A common interest gives you a social icebreaker. You know you have at least one subject to talk about with these scary new people.

    The internet initially seemed like it would make this sort of thing easier but in fact it’s made it worse. Online communities don’t really work. But the internet can be used to find real life groups. Say you’re obsessed with morris dancing and you live in Melbourne and you think there’s nobody else in that city who shares your interest. Spend five minutes on a search engine and there’s a good chance you’ll find the Melbourne Morris Dancing Association and if they have actual real life meetings, go along.

    Sometimes social problems can be solved quite simply and they don’t require the complete destruction of existing society.

    • Replies: @Talha
  118. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    Good points. This can definitely help people get out of the rut of loneliness, which is a growing issue in our society.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  119. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    This can definitely help people get out of the rut of loneliness, which is a growing issue in our society.

    The tragedy is that loneliness is mostly just an inability to take that first step towards social contact with another person. Because that first step is a really big one. You might spend a couple of years travelling to work on the same bus as a woman and you might want to talk to her, and she might want to talk to you, but it doesn’t happen because it’s too scary.

    But if you were both Wagner fanatics and met at a Wagner Lovers’ convention within minutes you’d be happily chatting away about Lohengrin and within an hour you’d have exchanged phone numbers.

    The internet has killed real life social clubs and that’s a large part of the problem. Somehow we need to rebuild those real life informal social meeting places.

    The internet has also encouraged hookup culture which is a lot worse than the old-fashioned picking someone up at a bar (or getting picked up at a bar) system where you at least had to go through the motions of interacting socially before you got to have sex. Whether you approve or disapprove of casual sex I think you’d have to agree that casual sex without even the pretence of having to make conversation first is much worse.

    I admit I have no idea how to persuade people that they need to drop their smartphones into the trash can and go out and meet actual people in real life.

    • Replies: @Talha
  120. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    The middle class white conservatives who whine about everything wouldn’t have been successful in the 1950s either. It’s just a cope so they can feel safe about their lack of social and sexual success.

    There’s a certain amount of truth in that.

    It’s the working class who have really been screwed, but the black working class has been screwed just as thoroughly as the white working class. Rural communities are suffering also but that has nothing to with race.

    I’ve never had a non-white, be it Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, or Arab, bitch at me for being white, or scream for more abortions or climate change.

    The Poz is a monstrous creation but it’s something that whites created.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  121. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    More good points.

    I admit I have no idea how to persuade people that they need to drop their smartphones into the trash can and go out and meet actual people in real life.

    Don’t worry, give it a decade and smart phones may well be replaced. Though we may be the worse off for whatever replaces them.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  122. @Talha

    You must spend a lot of time following utter weirdos if you could even find such videos to use as examples.  I sure don’t have time for that stuff.

    • Replies: @Talha
  123. @Thea

    We need to learn to make this strange, contradictory, multicultural society work.

    It is not working because it cannot work.  That was the whole point of the social engineers who imposed it; the purpose is to torture the erstwhile majority with impossible demands.

    • Replies: @Thea
    , @dfordoom
  124. @dfordoom

    The Poz is a monstrous creation but it’s something that whites created.

    Wrong.  It was created by (((fellow white people))).

  125. Talha says:
    @Mr. Rational

    They are simply examples of human beings in dysfunction, you don’t have to look hard to find them.

    Peace.

  126. @Talha

    How does one know when they are following their true spirit?

    Unpeeling all of your false ego’s defences may be challenging, but if you can’t know what you truly are, then how can you know anything at all?

    How does one know that this will automatically align with what the Divine expects of them?

    All of creation is one, so all of creation is God.

    Rather than trying to rationalise your way to awareness though, you might simply drop the false rationalisation and just be.

    I guess it depends on perspective; I don’t see how he was doing greater violence to himself than thousands of women and children that weren’t slaughtered or burned or whatever in the wake of his conquests. This seems kind of like “everyone is really equally a victim at root”; should we take this seriously?

    I didn’t say “greater”. He was one with his victims as he was one with everything. He therefore hurt himself the greatest, literally, though he hurt them equally.

    His consciousness may have partly hidden his pain from itself via endless rationalisation, but he was hurting nonetheless.

    I am not expert on Ghengis Khan, so I can’t go into a lot more detail than that, nonetheless I do know #BLM. Of course, the following are generalisations of types by skin colour in that movement, but I am saying what I see.

    The black rioters may burn down stuff and beat people, while seemingly being highly emotional, but their own sense of feeling does tremendous violence to their own sense of awareness. This is why they come across as megalomaniacal children, irrational and yet also so full of energy, however misdirected.

    Half of them is being beaten, arsoned and looted by the other half. This is happening constantly within themselves. They have no escape. For those on the extremes, it is a true manifestation of hell.

    The white enablers may smugly parade their peverse morality and seemingly developed sense of awareness, while lecturing on in endless inane abstract sermons, but their sense of awareness has boxed in, suffocated and practically disappeared their own sense of true feeling. It has defeated its purpose, and theirs, so they now have none.

    This is why they come across as soulless, dead inside, cold fanatics. They too are their first victims. They are lost in the endless lies of the narcissist, trading being, for the illusions of the ego. Just imagine having to listen to their thoughts, 24 hours a day and 365 days a year! Then imagine having to identify as their thoughts…(cold) hell, indeed…

    He stated that their pain made him happy; why shouldn’t we take his statement at face value?

    People walk around in pain without fully realising it all of the time. People lie to themselves and others. They run from it and never face it. Often they even add to it by using terrible distractions to try to escape themselves. Why would anyone take the purported self-justification of a monster at face value?

    Thankfully, despite all of the above, on a deeper level, everyone really is already complete. All of their suffering is up near the surface and, if they could just bring their awareness to the almost unfathomable depths below, they’d realise that they were always exactly as they were and are, complete and serene and part of divine creation.

    [MORE]

    This last paragraph is what I find hardest, and I still struggle to keep my awareness of it. It is probably poorly expressed, sorry, as my realization of it is poor.

    For various personal reasons, I am sure, I struggle with not losing myself in empathy for others, and in taking responsibility for the feelings of those close to me. This may sound generous, but it is not. It is the greatest disrespect. That final paragraph is how I half realised that I am mistaken to do so.

    It is normal that whatever you think you are doing that makes you a “good” person becomes your downfall. This is egocentric pride, and tragedy. It is sacrificing being true for being “good”.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @AaronB
  127. AaronB says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    but if you can’t know what you truly are, then how can you know anything at all?

    If you distrust your mind, then the mind doing the distrusting cannot be trusted. At a certain point you realize you literally have no choice but to trust yourself.

  128. AaronB says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Absolutely brilliant comment – especially the last paragraph.

    That’s why many people who are formally religious are often hugely egotistical people, often being completely blind to it (case in point on this site). And the more you talk about subduing your ego the bigger it grows.

    The entire comment should be read with care and attention, as its more subtle than most mainstream commentary.

    • Thanks: Not Only Wrathful
  129. Thea says:
    @Mr. Rational

    If the Amish can survive and thrive so can others. People need to form likeminded groups around a shared value( race isn’t enough glue.) face to face groups that interact regularly such that all members know each other. These groups are unlikely to ever be in charge but they can survive and provide a community for their children.

  130. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    give it a decade and smart phones may well be replaced. Though we may be the worse off for whatever replaces them.

    There sees to be a law that each new technology is more destructive than the previous one.

  131. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Mr. Rational

    We need to learn to make this strange, contradictory, multicultural society work.

    It is not working because it cannot work. That was the whole point of the social engineers who imposed it; the purpose is to torture the erstwhile majority with impossible demands.

    That leaves you with two alternatives.

    A. Retreat into a fantasy world.

    B. Hope for a cataclysmic economic and political collapse which will most likely result in millions of deaths and a society in ruins. And which could trigger a global war which will leave the planet a smoking ruin.

    I think that trying to make the very imperfect system that we have more bearable is better than either of those alternatives.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  132. @dfordoom

    I think that trying to make the very imperfect system that we have more bearable is better than either of those alternatives.

    Whites are being genocided under the current system.  Unless large parts of it are figuratively bulldozed (all racial preferences for non-Whites, most if not all anti-discrimination law in both employment and housing, the feed-em-and-breed-em welfare system, all immigration both legal and illegal) White people are done for.

    I’m willing to exercise the Samson option to get rid of the threats.  If our rulers won’t remove them peacefully, they deserve what they get.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  133. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Mr. Rational

    Whites are being genocided under the current system.

    Poppycock. And right-wingers accuse liberals and women of putting feelz before reelz. That really is emotional nonsense. White people are suffering from declining fertility rates. So are the Japanese, the South Koreans, the Singaporeans. Are the Japanese being genocided?

    When you use terms like white genocide you simply discredit yourself in the eyes of ordinary people.

    There is certainly a culture war going on but it is not black vs white or non-white vs white. The culture war is mostly being waged by one group of whites against another group of whites. The culture war is elites vs non-elites, and it’s also to a very large extent Millennials and Zoomers vs Boomers and GenXers.

    And to a large extent the culture war is the imposition of American liberal culture on the rest of the planet.

    There is certainly a problem with increasing suicide rates among some whites. Mostly it’s poor, working-class and rural whites. This is a result of economic problems which have been caused by white people. White people who have been royally screwed by other white people are giving in to despair and killing themselves. This has zero to do with race. There’s also a cultural problem in that white people have, quite voluntarily, abandoned the family and community networks which in the past tended to prevent suicides.

    I’m not saying that declining fertility rates and higher white suicide rates are not real problems. They are. But they are not white genocide. They are problems which are afflicting all races in all advanced societies.

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