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In trying to track down convincing evidence for the claim that female happiness is in a state of secular decline, I stumbled into a chasm of self-reported happiness by marital status. The General Social Survey regularly asks respondents about how happy they are. The three potential responses are “very happy”, “pretty happy”, and “not too happy”.

The following graphs depict what I’ll call a happiness index, calculated by simply taking the “very happy” percentage and subtracting from it the “not too happy” percentage. For contemporary relevance, responses are from 2000 onward. To avoid racial confounding, only non-Hispanic whites are evaluated:

Correlation does not necessarily indicate causation, of course. And Tennyson’s assertion that it is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all deserves skepticism.

That said, this is prima facie evidence that the Western world’s increasingly anti-marital zeitgeist is making people miserable.

In anticipation of the objection that older people tend to be happier than younger people are, here are the results by marital status and age cohort:

Oh how our putative moral progress takes away what forever took to find.

GSS variables used: HAPPY, MARITAL(1)(3-4)(5), SEX, AGE(18-34)(35-49)(50-64)(65-89), RACECEN1(1), HISPANIC(1)

 
• Category: Culture/Society 
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  1. I just thought I’d point out something about Book Density and Intelligence. The fact that more books means more intelligence proves environment over heredity. More books in the house makes for smarter people. You of course in your cross-eyed upside-down way will say that it proves that smarter people mean more books. This is known as “Reversing Causation Fallacy” amongst those who read books, which means–people unlike you. Oh, what’s the use. You can’t even understand what this paragraph is saying. Fie.

  2. The fact you cite Dave Matthews invalidates anything and everything you say.

  3. anon[186] • Disclaimer says:

    This may be purely a function of my place in the world but it seems like White millennials have a bent towards marriage and family-formation, despite having to live in the wake of the worst generation in US history, the Baby Boomers.

    I look across the culture as a whole — ranging from music, movies, and even porn — and there is an undercurrent of wholesomeness that you did not see in the 1990’s and 2000’s. An example. In the 90’s, Sex and the City championed promiscuity and childlessness for upper class White women. But there is no modern day equivalent. Even HBO’s millennial successor, Girls, made the main characters look like losers. The closest modern day equivalent, the Kardashians, have little following among white women. The things that occupy the mindshare of women, Instagram and Pinterest, tend to be fairly wholesome, focusing on nutrition and health.

    Honestly, I think there is an aspect of White men not meeting White women at a halfway mark. Weed and video games seem like bigger dealbreakers for White women than deindustrialization and diminished job prospects. Looking at much of the rhetoric on men’s forums, it seems to be stuck in 2005, portraying women as either aspiring to be Samantha from Sex and the City or an armpit-haired feminist.

  4. Trevor H. says:
    @obwandiyag

    I’ve been married and I’ve been single and they both sucked. Actually, they both offered tremendous countervailing benefits but I don’t want to wreck a happy aphorism.

  5. @obwandiyag

    Where does this comment about book density come from? The post mentions nothing about that.

    Anyway, you’re making your own equally invalid assumption about the direction of causation.

    Dumb people don’t like to read. Therefore, they don’t have a lot of books around.

    You can’t turn an IQ 80 into an IQ 120 by pelting the kid with books. If you can shift a whole standard deviation through environment, including nutrition, you are doing fantastic. But, in the modern US, we’ve achieved almost all the environmental modification we reasonably can by government fiat.

    “This is known as “Reversing Causation Fallacy” amongst those who read books, which means–people unlike you. Oh, what’s the use. You can’t even understand what this paragraph is saying. Fie.”

    Way to be a condescending jerk. As an insult, it doesn’t even have the benefit of being slightly plausible.

  6. @obwandiyag

    “More books in the house makes for smarter people.”

    There are a lot of bums in the city library, so your thesis is disproven 😉

  7. Wency says:
    @anon

    Yeah, there might be something to this.

    Maybe it’s just that I’m in the South and things are worse on the coasts, but there are tons of good women out there. In the final push to find my wife (not long ago), I went on dates with maybe 10 other women, and all but 2-3 of them were marriage material for some man, I would say.

    All the men I know who are still single in their 30s have huge issues. Often live with parents, smoke lots of pot, play lots of video games. And they have highly unrealistic expectations about the kind of woman they can hope to land.

  8. @Cloudbuster

    Where does this comment about book density come from?

    He is sabotaging another blogger’s thread because I banned that bum from commenting on mine for incessant trolling and insults. Perhaps AE could follow suit.

  9. @Cloudbuster

    You can’t turn an IQ 80 into an IQ 120 by pelting the kid with books.

    Has this actually been tried? It’s illegal to pelt them with bricks or rocks, but I’d gladly have a go at beaming the morons with some nice heavy books if it’s legal.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  10. Is there a breakout by sex? I have a hypothesis that 3/4 of men would be happier married. By some odd coincidence the same ratio of time their wives are off the rag..

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @iffen
  11. @anon

    The things that occupy the mindshare of women, Instagram and Pinterest, tend to be fairly wholesome, focusing on nutrition and health.

    You have to wonder the kinds of women who supply the market for those one-off magazines you see at supermarkets these days about wellness, holistic living, yoga, mindfulness, superfoods and spirituality.

    At least in the supermarkets in Anglophone areas of the U.S. The American supermarkets in Hispanic areas don’t carry magazines, not even in Spanish, because Hispanics don’t read.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  12. @Anatoly Karlin

    Him, as well as Thomm seem averse to making productive comments.

  13. @Cloudbuster

    See I told you you were what you are. And there you are being what you are. And you think you’re different. Hardehar.

  14. Well,

    if yyou wanted to avoid confounding, including hispanics who are registered as whites doesn’t make much sense.

    Further white is no indicator of ideological or emotional states innately. Being hispanic is however, a descriptor of a general social understanding and as they might very well be white

    I would suggest. It’s confounded.

    ———————————-

    But aside from my quibbling. Marriage has always been popular because of what it offers to the general well being on men and women. So the graph only reinforces previous research, general understanding about the benefits of marriage.

    And clearly the downward pressure on marriage has been damaging historically. And that despite divorce most people continue to seek marriage and relationships that lead to marriage.

    By marriage, I limit my perspective to relations only between men and women.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  15. @Anatoly Karlin

    Why should I care what a child who poses like a Mighty Power Ranger and loves censorship because he is too sensitive to take it (although not to sensitive to dish it out) and most importantly is stupider than me thinks?

    • Replies: @iffen
  16. @Cloudbuster

    You are wrong. All you have is prejudice in your head. No brain.

    Probably there are few books in your house.

    Reading to children makes them smarter. Fact. If you deny it, you are an ignorant idiot. Fact. Idiots don’t like facts. Fact.

  17. @Stan d Mute

    Good point. This guy is so stupid he doesn’t know what you do with books. Which is not throw them but read them. Probably never actually read one in his life. A moron calling non-morons morons. Ain’t that typical.

    • LOL: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @M. Hartley
    , @Stan d Mute
  18. iffen says:

    I’m 69 and I have been married all my life, although, at times is seems much longer.

    Oh, one more thing, happiness is highly over-rated.

    • Agree: Philip Owen
  19. Be interested to see a breakdown by gender. From my personal observations, single women (whether divorced or never married) over the age of 34 are pretty miserable, especially if they don’t have kids. They know that they missed the boat and that their chances of getting married again to anything close to decent guy are slim. What’s more, they’re staring down decades of being alone. I’m guessing that’s why the 65+ group isn’t quite as unhappy.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  20. iffen says:
    @Wency

    And they have highly unrealistic expectations about the kind of woman they can hope to land

    If we had an economy that provided decent jobs for these guys, a lot of problems would solve themselves.

    • Replies: @Wency
  21. iffen says:
    @Stan d Mute

    Stan, your Mom only has so many tears, then she will be gone.

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
  22. iffen says:
    @obwandiyag

    Mighty Power Ranger

    Mighty Morphin Power Ranger

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  23. @advancedatheist

    I must admit the magazines I see aimed at women at the UK supermarket checkouts don’t look very wholesome, being mainly about dreadful TV shows and vacuous (if full-bosomed) celebrities plus a leavening of “I Married My Rapist” type stories.

  24. @anon

    My sense as a millennial is that we are vaguely aware that our parents’ generation lost something valuable, but don’t have any idea how to get it back. Certainly they are less likely to marry, and I don’t expect that to change as they age.

    “In the 90’s, Sex and the City championed promiscuity and childlessness for upper class White women. But there is no modern day equivalent.”

    What about Transparent or Orange is the New Black? I’ve never seen either show, but just from the promotional posters I’d think they’d make Sex and the City look conservative in comparison.

    “Honestly, I think there is an aspect of White men not meeting White women at a halfway mark. Weed and video games seem like bigger dealbreakers for White women than deindustrialization and diminished job prospects.”

    Lots of millennial men read a sentence like that and ask “wait, why do women get to complain about men’s hobbies and interests and not the other way around?” The societal message to men who do is “well of course you don’t see the value in X, you’re a guy, now go back to playing your video games. Actually stop that, it’s a waste of time.” It sours them on the whole idea of getting married.

    • Replies: @anon
  25. @iffen

    I knew some stripling youth would correct me. Very mature. Knowing the correct names of Saturday Morning cartoons.

    • Replies: @iffen
  26. @obwandiyag

    Ok, it’s time to figure out how to block you.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  27. iffen says:
    @obwandiyag

    “Pay attention, boy, I’m cuttin’ but you ain’t bleedin’!”

    • LOL: Talha
  28. @Cloudbuster

    Read the last few letters of his screen name backward. That will explain everything.

  29. 216 says:

    O/T

    Polls, Canada

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_2019_Canadian_federal_election

    Note the rise in the Greens. Not a good sign for the Right. The Trudeau corruption scandal isn’t moving voters into the Conservatives. The highest they polled was 39% for Harper in 2011. The demographic eclipse is easily the proximate cause for their lower share, white Liberals are shifting Green. Bernier’s party is going nowhere, and probably will end with nothing more than Bernier’s re-election akin to Carswell’s useless stint in UKIP.

  30. divorced guys are worse off than never married guys, because the woman completely takes them in the divorce under the current legal system. so yeah. getting married is a bad idea now sometimes, and something a guy shouldn’t automatically do anymore.

    unfortunately, even the right woman, can still take you, 20 years down the line. the system allows them that ability, and even the right woman can find that hard to resist. so there’s no guarantees that even if you definitely meet the right person, you’re safe from this stuff.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @anon
  31. @obwandiyag

    I know you don’t get many [AGREE]s, OB, but that was not given just in charity. Dave Mathews is another know-it-all musical artist like the Bono, who preaches the whole Global Climate Disruption(TM) bit, yet dumps raw sewage out of his tour bus into the Chicago River. Screw Dave Matthews!

    (It was a very poetic line though.)

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  32. @prime noticer

    AGREED. Having BIG STATE as a back-up husband supported by tax money from other husbands makes the decision to bail out pretty tempting, and kind of hard for a husband trying to be a proper leader of the family. Welcome to Socialist Hell.

    Better choose real carefully, and cut off the cable. Once you have the kids, it’s a crap shoot.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  33. In case anyone’s wondering, I checked, and the pattern’s basically the same for men.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  34. @obwandiyag

    He’s a limousine leftist of the most predictable kind, boringly woke in so many ways. But Dreaming Tree is a based song, especially the verses about the woman, verses that almost could’ve been written by Heartiste.

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @obwandiyag
  35. @Wency

    What kinds of issues? I’ve known married people who do all three of the activities listed.

    • Replies: @Wency
  36. @obwandiyag

    In your entire comment history you’ve never made one that wasn’t insipid trolling. If you could manage to at least be funny once in a while there would at least be that value, but you can’t. You have nothing. You’re just boring as hell. I’ve amused myself by winding you up a time or two, but even wound up you still manage to be boring. For fuck sake, watch a commenter like Twinkles and learn a thing. He’s as interesting as you are boring. He makes sensible comments and when you wind him like a clock he comes unsprung with tales of secret agent assassination missions.

    Amuse me.

  37. @Anatoly Karlin

    If the insults are at least court jester caliber, they can continue. He’s going to have to step his game up from what’s been offered here, though.

    • Replies: @Truth
  38. @iffen

    My mom was much better after menopause. Then she died of ovarian cancer. Life sucks like that sometimes.

    • Replies: @iffen
  39. @EliteCommInc.

    These results are restricted to those who explicitly identified as non-Hispanic, so it shouldn’t include too many George Zimmermans!

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  40. @iffen

    All your life? All your *adult* life, you mean?

    • Replies: @iffen
  41. @Citizen of a Silly Country

    It’s tragic that YOLO women in their thirties are often only just then contemplating what living another 50 years completely invisible to the outside world is going to be like, a time when it is close to being an inevitability for them.

  42. Truth says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    …Now that’s high praise.

  43. Truth says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Hey how come the Commie gets permanent block privileges, but the rest of you ‘Murcans (and Fred Reed) have no choice but do sit there and take these silly, immature, unproductive snarky, assholes who do nothing but spam thread after thread with goofy non sequitors, unfunny puns and childish innuendo, never take the thread topic seriously and basically instigate problems between the members, and race-bait, and have nothing in common with the other posters anyway.

    Dude, I’d be all in banning those clowns. So we could go back to the original purpose of this site. An aggregator for the worlds premier intellects to solve the world’s greatest problems.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  44. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @iffen

    I am a white man. When I was single I dated lots of attractive white women. Exclusively white women. Every relationship plateaued and then soured in 12-18 months. Within 6 months they would start giving me crap about little things. I’d walk on egg shells and constantly have to placate them. After many relationships like this I thought marriage was not for me. When I was single I found Rushton’s Race, Evolution, and Behavior at a used bookstore. Long story short. I consciously sought and married a NE Asian woman. Since then I have had decades of high-level baseline happiness. Never get any crap just support with cheerful disposition. Thank you JPR!

    • Replies: @Rosie
  45. @Stan d Mute

    “Amuse me”

    This is all you’re getting from him:

    • Agree: Stan d Mute
    • LOL: Twinkie
    • Replies: @Twinkie
  46. anon[361] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alexander Turok

    What about Transparent or Orange is the New Black? I’ve never seen either show, but just from the promotional posters I’d think they’d make Sex and the City look conservative in comparison.

    It’s a question of audience-size and glorification. No woman watches either show and says “I want to be a tranny” or “I want to be a bull dyke in prison.” Similarly, few men watch Breaking Bad and decide to deal meth. But many women watched Sex and City, and decided to ho’ it up. Many guys watched Entourage, and thought it would be cool to “hang with their boys” instead of being a man.

    Lots of millennial men read a sentence like that and ask “wait, why do women get to complain about men’s hobbies and interests and not the other way around?” The societal message to men who do is “well of course you don’t see the value in X, you’re a guy, now go back to playing your video games. Actually stop that, it’s a waste of time.” It sours them on the whole idea of getting married.

    Video games + weed are the male equivalent of soap operas + bonbons. It’s acceptable if you’re in your 20’s and hot. Any guy who is less is the male equivalent of a fat chick.

  47. anon[186] • Disclaimer says:
    @prime noticer

    This may be the case. But the only thing sadder than divorced guys are guys that never married. They will have their rare high points of “if it works for George Clooney, then it works for me!” Other than that, they spend Thanksgiving at Arby’s.

  48. @Audacious Epigone

    But the music sucks. But you would have to know music to know why.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  49. Twinkie says:
    @Stan d Mute

    Now that was funny. Well done.

  50. Twinkie says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    I don’t know why, but that made me crack up and spill my beer.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  51. Twinkie says:

    First of all, per the Church’s teachings, marriage is a foretaste of Heaven. Given that life is mostly suffering punctuated by glimpses of Heaven, I’d say it is one sacrament that even the most impious can take to with alacrity.

    I have been married for about 25 years now, and it has been – along with fatherhood – the most fulfilling aspect of my life (with fewer moments of anxiety, frustration, and worry than fatherhood, I might add). I have been blessed with a wonderful marriage, and I am often asked how it was that I was able to marry such an amazing woman and have such a happy marriage (we still hold hands when we walk and people say we act like newlyweds – but they are actually wrong, because I love her more now than I did at our wedding night).

    Even at the risk of sounding like what younger men call “a white knight” for women, I offer the following thought:

    I meet these days some younger men in the marriage age (say, 25-35) who often complain that most of the women they meet are, in their angry words, “whores, gold-diggers, and psychos” or some other similar terms. They argue that these women are not marriage material. When I delve further into their “dating habits” for lack of a better term, it turns out a sexual relationship is of primary importance, even from the beginning, for these young man.

    When I ask them whether they have considered courting a likable woman and trying to have a romantic relationship with her without having a sexual one, most of them look at me like the proverbial deer caught in a headlight (it’s that “What is this guy talking about?” look). It doesn’t seem to occur to them that expecting virtue out of women without practicing it themselves is not only hypocritical, but is bound to lead to disappointments and resentments on both sides.

    There used to be a saying: good things come to those who wait. I understand that sex is fun, it’s exciting, etc. The problem with that aspect of it is that, precisely because it is so enjoyable, it obscures and covers up other aspects of an interpersonal relationship. When you court a woman without having sex, you instead learn a lot about each other in sobriety without the intoxicating veil of sex. So when a man and a woman form a deep bond and develop a strong affection for one another without sex, it all but guarantees that their relationship is likely to blossom into an enduring one of mutual regard and, hopefully and eventually, mutual sacrifice. And, yes, to put in very practical terms, you will be able to “screen out” “whores, gold-diggers, and psychos.”

    Put another way, if there is love – genuine love – before the surrender to lust, there will be love after that lust fades as it inevitably does with familiarity and age (and that’s human nature) while relationships built on lust will have long crumbled.

    And when a woman has known no other man but you, she will love you, honor you, comfort you, and make certain that you know there is always one person in this world who will make you feel at home. She will give you her all.

    In order to win a virtuous woman like that, you have to practice virtue yourself. You have to earn that trust and sacrifice from her by giving your all without falling into the easy temptations of the world. And that is in my experience how you have a marriage that gets stronger as time goes on and all the while irritations, difficulties, and complications of life pile up.

    • Replies: @Wency
    , @Rosie
    , @Rosie
  52. Wency says:
    @iffen

    That might apply to the white working class, to men with IQs in the 95-100 range, but I’m not really acquainted with any such people. I’m talking about guys who got into good colleges and either graduated or flunked out due to total lack of effort. I.e., a total lack of ambition.

    At another time, such men might have been paired with women at a younger age and found their inner drive from a desire to provide for the family. Or maybe they would have ended up as burnouts in any time and place.

    • Replies: @iffen
  53. Wency says:
    @Jokah Macpherson

    I don’t understand what you’re trying to argue. Those characteristics (taken to excess) are a distinct negative in the eyes of nearly all marriageable women — i.e., the sort of women who are looking for a husband and father. If a guy lands a good woman in spite of them, he’s surely got some serious game. But can he keep her?

    I did know a married guy who decided unilaterally to quit his job to stay home, smoke pot, and play video games, and count on his wife to pay the bills. She gave him about two years to see if he could pull himself back together, then divorced him.

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @Jokah Macpherson
  54. @anon

    I am single. I have a female housemate who was married. I think the reason I am single is the result of

    1. money — I don’t care what anyone says about love. I have a firm belief in in cash on hand. And no woman I have ever met was not consumed with cash. Being blacklisted has not helped.

    2. If one has no cash then one must have looks, personality, and or power/influence. I may be a character, but looks, personality and power/influence are not part of being.

    3. I am conservative and despite some major hurdles that should have me on the liberal bandwagon, I am more conservative now than ever. Since I avoid religious circles as a staple, being conservative makes one an odd person out.

    4. Women are usually not happy to discover that when i indicate I don’t drink or engage in the most intimate of exchanges as a single person. I have to laugh that they are disappointed that what I said about the nature of dating is in fact accurate.

    Though I have spent the last twenty years or so deeply imbittered as to my circumstances — no advice requested —

    I have never been more at peace with who I am. I am very happy about me, granting that I could use improvement. it would be nice to get my finances and carreer back into some sane course and the finances to follow – and meet a woman, who actually was “nuts” about me as I her. But when I pass my singular thought will most likely be whether what I did and who i am served anyone to their benefit, if not to know Christ (said at the risk of getting the boot – so be it) then for who they are and they will positive influence this life as a person of integrity — a quality losing ground daily in my view.

    Despite the need to make changes — if happiness if “a sense of liking oneself” then I guess I can say, some happiness, if not contentment.

    Odd that one would desire a spouse to remind them just how not “ok” they really are.

    Ha.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  55. Wency says:
    @Twinkie

    Great comment.

    The double standard between male and female sexual virtue is largely grounded in biological reality, as every red-pilled fellow knows. But some men immersed in the manosphere apparently take this to mean they are fully justified in screwing everything that moves while holding no respect for any woman not a virgin.

    There is a lot to be said for practicing some damn restraint. It’s enriching for the soul; builds character. I also think it’s better for meeting a wife. If you’re just looking to get laid, you probably find yourself spending time with a sort of woman that you would not if you were purely looking for a wife.

  56. @Twinkie

    Keep drinking, I only get funnier.

    • LOL: iffen
  57. iffen says:
    @Stan d Mute

    If your Mom is deceased, why did you tell us that she cried when you told her your political views?

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
  58. iffen says:
    @Wency

    but I’m not really acquainted with any such people.

    Interesting because you are talking about one half of the white male population.

    • Replies: @Wency
  59. iffen says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    “That’s a joke, I say that’s a joke son”

    BTW, is the schoolmarm going to address the use of pekkawood, or will you be using the MSM Deliverance model for deciding what is derogatory?

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  60. Truth says:
    @Wency

    Sir (or Ma’am, I’m not sure), you are 100% right on this one.

    One of the brainwashing conspiracies that has been implimented over the last 50 or so years is that with all of this hero worship (which is all TV is), men have come to see themselves, through proxies, as more capable, interesting, and deserving than they actually are. I hear fat guys, for instance, insulting fat women all of the time, and implying that the woman is not good enough for them. It’s almost like they have never looked into a mirror.

    Then you press them about it and they say; “urr….yeah….well, it’s different for dudes, we can compensate for it”, a point about which they are not totally mistaken, but you look at the guy and he is not only 50 lbs. overweight, but sloppy, lower-middle class and uniteresting.

    It’s like when I read the countless white men here savaging white women and fetishizing Asians, they go on and on about the bad qualitites that white women possess, I am dumbfounded because it’s like they have never read their own posts. and have no idea that even on an anonymous forum they present themselves as whiny, beta losers.

  61. Wency says:
    @iffen

    Is it really unusual to have no friends or acquaintances of below-average IQ, no one who’s multi-generational working class? I don’t think so at all — see Coming Apart.

  62. @iffen

    If your Mom is deceased, why did you tell us that she cried when you told her your political views?

    WTF? Where did I write that? In a comment five years ago? What are you, a fucking elephant or something?

    And that’s not even an accurate account, I used to debate with my uber-liberal yet highly intelligent doctor mom. Often as not, those debates ended in her tears true enough, but mostly because I deflated her liberal egalitarian delusions. I’d force her to concede HBD and she’d spend an hour crying because biology is real and immutable (a fact she learned in med school). I finally got the same confession from her equally bright sister on her deathbed – she admitted the sole and permanent reason for affirmative action is negro cognitive inferiority which neither can nor ever will change. Tough pill to swallow for a liberal, even though they all know it’s true. But if we can’t face truth we can’t progress. After my aunt’s admission she begged me to convince her granddaughter to abort the mulatto fetus she had in the oven, made me swear a deathbed promise. That part I failed. I now have a third cousin mulatto.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    , @iffen
  63. ” Often as not, those debates ended in her tears true enough, but mostly because I deflated her liberal egalitarian delusions. I’d force her to concede HBD and she’d spend an hour crying because biology is real and immutable (a fact she learned in med school).”

    One wonders whether this was the logic or the force combined with the internal dynamics that revolves around any family. But given how so many here use the “immutable truth of biology” logic would not be without speculation. There is no evidence that biology to the subject if determined with any finality. In fact, it is quite the opposite.

    Up until 1960, the oft maligned population on this site exceeded the dominant population in marriages. That was the case for nearly 100 years. Then something happened around the 1960 or mid 1960’s in which marriage rates for that population dropped below the dominant population. So based on the immutable truth of biology as suggested repeatedly among this circle

    the marriages rate should have remained constant for the smaller population, after all if marriage is a biologically determined state and the biology did not change then the rate of marriage would not change — based on that 100 years timeline, that smaller population exhibited more marriage relationships. You would have to pinpoint the biological change that occurred that caused the change.

    When I taught interpersonal communication one of the sections was on male female communication dynamics and despite the gender issues, men and women remain curiously different in their communication styles. tears as understood by men is a sign of acquisessence, giving up, giving in, weakness. But that simply is not the case. women exhibit tears out of frustration, anger, disappointment with greater frequency and ease than men. And I have some confidence that your mother’s tears and her supposed submission had very little to do with her seeing the light as one might think.

    So I would be curious if in fact a particular group is actually more attendent to marriage base on this unspoken biological trait , what biological change occurred that caused the drop in marriages in 1960.

    Let’s ignore that this population, biological trait unspoken was already ahead in the number of marriages for quite some time, which by the “immutable truth of biology” would indicate that marriage is more a practice among that group than the dominant society.

    I would say the evidence for the change is structural sociological as opposed to some biological determinent. But I certainly invite someone to note a biological cause if you have one.

  64. @Cloudbuster

    Way to be a condescending jerk.

    You can’t even call Windy Bag deluded, because if he actually believed what he writes here he would be back home trying to Make Nigeria Wakanda Again.  No matter that it would be just as pointless as the Zambia Space program:

    THOSE guys BELIEVED they were going somewhere.  Windy Bag does not.  Instead of making sure there are lots of books in Nigeria, he posts here trying to do something about his own sense of inferiority.  It’s no wonder that he fails at both.

    Oh, and Windy Bag?  My house is CRAMMED with books, from fiction through multiple encyclopedias and other reference works.

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
    , @Truth
    , @Truth
  65. @M. Hartley

    Click the “Agree/Disagree” button, it’s at the bottom of the pop-up.

  66. @Mr. Rational

    My house is CRAMMED with books

    Can we throw some heavy ones at morons and see if beaning them raises their IQ as posited?

    Please?

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  67. Note:

    I fully support marriage between men and women. I think it is vital to sustaining community and as such ranks higher in value than singleness.

    not having a family is one of my failures.

    The country must support heterosexual unions — marriage.

    • Replies: @Truth
  68. Mark G. says:
    @Wency

    Most people with realistic expectations of the opposite sex get married in their twenties. I would say both men and women in their thirties who aren’t married often have unrealistic expectations. Women have the problem that the men they can get to marry them are usually of lower physical attractiveness or have a less charming personality than the guys who will just have sex with them. Guys have the problem that they can marry a female who is better than the ones they can sleep with but they have to give up being the slacker type who watches tv, drinks beer and plays video games. It’s harder if a lot of higher paying jobs have disappeared because of bad government economic policies, they have to pay high levels of taxes if they do get a job, and they have to worry about divorce or child support laws that are tilted against them. What seems to be happening is that the guys don’t get married, the single women turn to government as an economic provider, the government raises taxes to provide that support and then the increased taxes cause even fewer men to desire to work a job which has a larger chunk being taken out in taxes. Then you have even more male slackers followed by even more single females needing government support. I don’t know how you can reverse this once you start going down this road.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  69. Truth says:
    @Mr. Rational

    No matter that it would be just as pointless as the Zambia Space program:

    You’re right, pointless.

    Of course our space program has a point, but it’s probably not one you’d want to sign off on.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  70. Truth says:
    @Mr. Rational

    Oh, and Windy Bag? My house is CRAMMED with books, from fiction through multiple encyclopedias and other reference works.

    With all possible respect, Big Chief, that might be part of your issue. You should get out more and have conversations with entities with beating hearts.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  71. Truth says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    not having a family is one of my failures.

    Well now, virtual permanancy in fathering children is one of the advantages we have over the double-X chromosomers, Old Bean.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  72. @Stan d Mute

    After my aunt’s admission she begged me to convince her granddaughter to abort the mulatto fetus she had in the oven, made me swear a deathbed promise. That part I failed. I now have a third cousin mulatto.

    My condolences.  At least your aunt didn’t live long enough for that sorrow to be fully realized.

  73. @Stan d Mute

    Not any of MINE, thankyouverymuch.  But I’m all for taking donations of Zinn’s “People’s History of the United States” for that purpose.  It would outrage all the right people.

  74. @Truth

    NASA did manage to do this too, you know:

    • Replies: @Truth
  75. @Truth

    With all possible respect, Big Chief, that might be part of your issue.

    Did I say that I spend all my time reading them?  I did not.  I have not looked at most of them in years.  But they are there if I want or need them, such as to give someone else a look at a given genre or period in fiction or western civilization.

    I consult Webster’s unabridged a few times a year.  It is still not something I would give up, and the dictionary stand has pride of place in my library.

  76. @Wency

    I wasn’t really arguing anything…just following up out of curiosity. I don’t think being a slacker instead of a driven careerist = “issues” in the same way that some more severe things might, though; difference in terminology I guess.

    FWIW I’m mid-30’s and never married and none of the characteristics you list are particularly applicable to me, but maybe I’m not the modal group member. I get the feeling, though, that there’s plenty of others out there who are similar.

  77. iffen says:
    @Stan d Mute

    I do have a good memory on selected subjects. However, in your case it was just repetitive reinforcement because most of the time when I read your comments I would say to myself, “Now I know why his mother cried.”

    Tough pill to swallow for a liberal

    Very true.
    Are you sure you didn’t copy this from one of my comments?

    I now have a third cousin mulatto.

    You have to admit that the little brown scamps are adorable. And when they get old they get the benefit of having that seemingly ageless black skin which is a definite improvement over aged white skin.

    BTW, the said mulatto is your 1st cousin, once removed. If you should ever have children, your children and the said mulatto will be 2nd cousins.

  78. @anon

    mmm. arby’s.

    i’m happier than some of my married friends. less happy than some of the others. but i’m much happier than 100% of my divorced friends.

    my brother just went thru a divorce, and it went about as badly as possible. so, no thanks to all that. luckily they were no kids. it would have been much worse if there were.

    if upper class, graduate degree europeans who are serious about getting married and staying married, and deliberately want to make children, still can’t make it work sometimes now, i think there’s much less future in long term one man one woman marriage. and all the statistics say that is how things are going.

    after divorcing my brother and taking all his money, his house, even taking all his stuff, and fighting to take things that weren’t even hers (and getting them), turns out she was just seeing some other guy the last year of their marriage. so she was planning to leave him anyway. saving up her money, his money, and plotting to procure the house. she set up the entire thing.

    LOL. guys, society is in trouble.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  79. also, having lived well over 40 years now, i think a lot of this stuff is just random.

    the quality of the mates you meet is just random and there is no rhyme or reason. so you’re just rolling dice here. the marriage stakes are high, for rolling dice.

    it’s not much different than small business creation. 1000 guys start a small business in new industry x, then 20 years later, the 5 guys who made it, charge you 200 bucks at a conference to explain how it was all so easy, and just do it like i did. you never hear from the other 900 guys who were just about as good, made just about the same moves, and met with various degrees of fail. due mainly to simple luck.

    the survivorship bias is high.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  80. 216 says:

    Grifters are useless Part XCXII

    All the criticism of Islam from the Right hasn’t managed to dent public/elite support for mass immigration. On the contrary, it probably weakens us because it plays into the leftist narrative of hypocritical Christians, not to mention the “Mooselimbs hate teh gayz” argument.

    But hey, gotta live that Gloria Steinem lifestyle…

    P.S. – Thernovith and BumbleJack were wrecked by Disney. And all of the Right was ritually humiliated, again.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Audacious Epigone
  81. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Never get any crap just support with cheerful disposition. Thank you JPR!

    “I used to employ White men, and it worked out fine for awhile, but then they started demanding better wages and working conditions, so I started hiring coolies and never looked back. Never get any crap just hard work with a cheerful disposition. Thanks Mr. Hart and Mr. Celler.”

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  82. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    And when a woman has known no other man but you, she will love you, honor you, comfort you, and make certain that you know there is always one person in this world who will make you feel at home. She will give you her all.

    She’ll do that even if she has known other men, if you stand out as the most honorable.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  83. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    I have been married for about 25 years now, and it has been – along with fatherhood – the most fulfilling aspect of my life (with fewer moments of anxiety, frustration, and worry than fatherhood, I might add).

    People have this strange assumption that marriage should be hassle-free. That is to say, whatever annoying habits they have are their spouses’ cross to bear till Kingdom Come. Its a very take-it-or-leave-it, my-way-or-the-highway kind of attitude. Personally, I couldn’t live like that.

  84. Rosie says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    AGREED. Having BIG STATE as a back-up husband supported by tax money from other husbands makes the decision to bail out pretty tempting, and kind of hard for a husband trying to be a proper leader of the family.

    Boo hoo. We can’t bully our wives if they’re not forced by economic necessity to put up with our crap!

    😥

  85. Rosie says:
    @216

    Grifters are useless Part XCXII

    Meanwhile, this “grifter” has done more good for White people than you most likely ever will.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  86. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    I kinda get what you are saying, but that position can be used to justify sloth (“Give me money, but I don’t want to work hard.”) and being abrasive to the opposite sex.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  87. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    She’ll do that even if she has known other men, if you stand out as the most honorable.

    Two-way street. Women who want honorable knights should be chaste ladies. Hypocrisy can go both ways.

    I’m afraid that sociological evidence is rather strong about the reduced ability of women with multiple past partners to bond with a new partner.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Audacious Epigone
  88. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    When in doubt, “The Gift of the Magi” is the best manual on marriage… which is why my wife and I give out a nice illustrated copy to all the newly-weds in our community.

    Love is sacrifice. Mutual sacrifice multiflies that magic manifold.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  89. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    I kinda get what you are saying, but that position can be used to justify sloth (“Give me money, but I don’t want to work hard.”) and being abrasive to the opposite sex.

    I never promised that I would never be “abrasive” after being on my feet taking care of children all day.

    If that is the standard we’re expected to live up to, then to hell with it. It’s hopeless!

  90. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    I’m afraid that sociological evidence is rather strong about the reduced ability of women with multiple past partners to bond with a new partner.

    No it isn’t.

    And if it were so, shouldn’t fornicators be criminally punished? As I have pointed out elsewhere, if pump and dumpers harm women as much as forcible rapists, then they should be punished as severely as forcible rapists. Funny how I never hear anyone advocating for such. My surmise is that they know they are full of shit and are simply trying to defend an indefensible double standard.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  91. @Rosie

    “People have this strange assumption that marriage should be hassle-free. ”

    And by “people,” you mean “women.”

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150822154900.htm

  92. Rosie says:

    And by “people,” you mean “women.”

    Very much to the contrary. Women are usually more than happy to do the emotional work necessary to keep a relationship healthy and mutually satisfactory. Husbands view this as “nagging.”

    The fact that women initiate most divorces proves absolutely nothing about who is and who is not willing to work on their relationship.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  93. @Rosie

    Aren’t you the broad who said people can’t be defined as conservatives unless they have at least three children? Southern is merely an internet version of the Fox News Channel Bimbo Brigade, sometimes minus the miniskirt and 5 inch heels. She does nothing for whites except use them promote her go girl lifestyle and avoid having to either raise a family or get a real job. If she looked like Janet Reno she’d have a fraction of the viewership if any at all.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  94. @Rosie

    “The fact that women initiate most divorces proves absolutely nothing about who is and who is not willing to work on their relationship.”

    Oh sure – and the fact that blacks commit most of the crime proves absolutely nothing about who is and who isn’t willing break the law.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  95. Rosie says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    If she looked like Janet Reno she’d have a fraction of the viewership if any at al

    Unlike you, I don’t much care whether Lauren gets traffic because she’s a sex symbol. Propriety is the least of my worries just now. My priority is securing the existence of our people and a future for White children.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  96. Rosie says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    Oh sure – and the fact that blacks commit most of the crime proves absolutely nothing about who is and who isn’t willing break the law.

    That is a terrible analogy. Women whom I know to have filed for divorce have done so very reluctantly, after years of desperate attempts to get their husbands to at least pretend to give a shit about them once in awhile.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  97. @Rosie

    “I never promised that I would never be “abrasive” after being on my feet taking care of children all day. ”

    Boohoo! Don’t you ever tire of hanging on your cross? Your wrists must ache worse than your feet.

  98. @Rosie

    It is a perfect analogy to illustrate the fallacy of your logic.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  99. Rosie says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    It is a perfect analogy to illustrate the fallacy of your logic.

    You’re smarter than this, Mike.

  100. @Rosie

    “Unlike you, I don’t much care whether Lauren gets traffic because she’s a sex symbol. ”

    That’s because it would require you to realize that most women’s success is based upon their appearance, and not their content. And FTR, I don’t care, I’m merely pointing out the obvious.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  101. Rosie says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    That’s because it would require you to realize that most women’s success is based upon their appearance, and not their content.

    Is that so? I was unaware that the 50+ percent women law school and med school admittees were required to send boob pics along with their test scores and transcripts.

  102. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    As I have pointed out elsewhere, if pump and dumpers harm women as much as forcible rapists

    What? Are you deranged?

    Look, I have a low regard for man-whores, but to equate them to violent rapists is completely illogical and over-the-top.

    shouldn’t fornicators be criminally punished?

    Not everything requires a legal solution. Moral disapproval and social exclusion from polite company should be sufficient for cads and sluts alike.

    No it isn’t.

    Are you defending promiscuity now? Or is it just for women?

    See: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003.00444.x

    premarital sex or premarital cohabitation that is limited to a woman’s husband is not associated with an elevated risk of marital disruption. However, women who have more than one intimate premarital relationship have an increased risk of marital dissolution.

    And: http://before-i-do.org/

    Men and women who only slept with their (future) spouse prior to marriage reported higher marital quality than those who had other sexual partners as well. Further, for women, having had fewer sexual partners before marriage was also related to higher marital quality. This doesn’t mean that sex before marriage will doom a marriage, but sex with many different partners may be risky if you’re looking for a high-quality marriage.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  103. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    I never promised that I would never be “abrasive” after being on my feet taking care of children all day.

    Wow. I’m getting the picture now. In your vision, women can sleep around and be cantankerous to their husbands, but the latter should be devoted, tolerant, and gentlemanly, and break their backs earning for the family. If only the 14 words were held as Gospel by all whites, you’d get this world, right?

    You are a mirror image of the so-called Mansophere that you (rightly) hold in low regard.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  104. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    Look, I have a low regard for man-whores, but to equate them to violent rapists is completely illogical and over-the-top.

    Not if you are correct in your view that man-whores seriously damage women’s prospects for a successful marriage to the point that men should avoid marrying them, because the man-whore has not only victimized the woman, but has also deprived a man of a suitable mate. Said man-whore is in fact quite as much of a menace to the social order as a forcible rapist, if your assumption of a causal relationship between number of premarital sex partners and higher divorce risk is correct.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  105. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    You are a mirror image of the so-called Mansophere that you (rightly) hold in low regard

    Give me a break! I never said men aren’t entitled to the same understanding and forgiveness after a hard days’ work as women are. (Yes, we do work just as hard as you do, at least those of us who don’t have maids.)

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  106. @Truth

    I have to admit, I have no idea what this means. Unless you mean, I could marry someone younger.

    Hmmm . . . I am careful what age range and I would not be inclined to date youngsters.

  107. Truth says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    Well then I guess you have no chance of remedying your “greatest regret.”

  108. Rosie says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    Hmmm . . . I am careful what age range and I would not be inclined to date youngsters.

    Good for you. You would probably just be taking a mate from a younger man anyway.

  109. @Truth

    I have access to the block function but I’m hesitant to use it. He hasn’t heavily spammed posts or violated the other minimal standards I want to maintain, so I’m not going to here, either.

    • Replies: @Truth
  110. @obwandiyag

    The band brought in more tour revenue in the 2000s than any other musical act in the world. You’re going to need a little more behind the assertion “the music sucks”.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  111. @EliteCommInc.

    I have found in my own lived experience (after hearing Trump call Democrats “border deniers”, I’m really going to make an effort to sharpen my Titania McGrath language), having children unlocked a new plane of happiness I couldn’t reach alone.

  112. @iffen

    Yes, I will. Where?

    • Replies: @iffen
  113. @prime noticer

    Marriage without the intention of children is courting disaster for men, agree.

  114. @prime noticer

    It seems like that but the signs are always there if they’re scrutinized meticulously enough.

  115. @216

    P.S. – Thernovith and BumbleJack were wrecked by Disney. And all of the Right was ritually humiliated, again.

    I’m not sure what you’re referring to here.

    • Replies: @216
  116. @Twinkie

    In all these things, we’re looking at probabilities rather than certainties, of course, but the evidence is strong on this.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Twinkie
  117. Truth says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    LMAO!

    So let me see if I understand this? All of the bloggers here have free will to block posters who do not agree with them, but the Commie is the only one who doesn’t practice freedom of speech?

    Man, if this site did not exist, man would have had to invent it.

  118. @Twinkie

    Oneof the best pieces of marital advice I’ve received:

    Love is a verb, not a noun.

  119. @EliteCommInc.

    The rule of seven is a good one (half your age + seven years). Outside of it, maintaining a relationship is going to be difficult.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  120. Rosie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    In all these things, we’re looking at probabilities rather than certainties, of course, but the evidence is strong on this.

    How do we know that high religious observance among partners in which the bride has no prior sexual experience? My surmise is that women who can negotiate an early commitment have high SMV and are therefore less likely to be taken for granted or mistreated by their spouse. Also, women who withhold sex are also likely to be more assertive in their relationship, thus getting more of their needs met.

    I absolutely do not buy the claim that women with prior sexual experience are less bonded or loyal to their spouse. If anything, it’s the other way around, like the alley cat you adopted out of your garbage can. They are grateful to finally have someone to care for them.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Twinkie
  121. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    How do we know that high religious observance among partners in which the bride has no prior sexual experience?

    Sorry. I didn’t finish my sentence:

    …doesn’t account for higher marital satisfaction and lower divorce risk?

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  122. @Rosie

    Good point. That’s surely some of the explanation.

  123. @216

    Thanks.

    Meh, it’s just another example that there is not a double standard but merely a single standard–to ask Who? Whom? and proceed accordingly.

  124. @Audacious Epigone

    Anybody who argues that popular acceptance of whatever is stuffed down the ignorant tasteless popular throat is some kind of superior art–simply because of that fact and for no other reason–is just as stupid as somebody who cites Dave whatshisname.

    I don’t need more nothing. You need more sense.

  125. If you love me why you makin me marry you? Sounds like you don’t love me. You just want a personal pidgeon..

  126. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    Said man-whore is in fact quite as much of a menace to the social order as a forcible rapist

    There are so many differences between the two that I don’t even know where to start. A woman has a choice when dealing with a cad. She can choose to not engage in a sexual relationship with him. In fact, a smart and chaste woman doesn’t no matter how appealing he might be. A violent rapist does not give her a choice and inflicts both emotional and physical harm.

    Don’t conflate a poor choice/judgment by a woman with a violent crime, a gross violation of both her dignity and her body inflicted upon her by another. The former should be dealt with by social ostracism and exclusion, the latter by the criminal justice system.

    I suggest you drop this, because it comes off as completely unhinged.

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Anonymous
  127. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    high religious observance among partners

    You really ought to read the links to the studies I provided if you plan to make intelligent counter-arguments: http://before-i-do.org/

    We do control for a range of variables, such as education, race/ethnicity, and religiousness, that might otherwise explain the association between the factors this study analyzes and marital quality. We also track our respondents longitudinally over time, so we know that their behaviors precede their marital outcomes and not vice versa. Moreover, we offer explanations for why we think the experiences of the men and women in this study might plausibly have an impact on their marital futures.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  128. @anon

    In the 90’s, Sex and the City championed promiscuity and childlessness for upper class White women. (…) The closest modern day equivalent, the Kardashians, have little following among white women.

    Grandma Kardashian has 6 children with 2 husbands because she was widowed, and only one of the second generation is childless. The face of the family, Kim, has been no doubt promiscuous (a porn video was her original claim to fame), but her 3 kids have the same father. Not that I ever watched their show, but I do look at Internet forums about celebrities and have just googled this family tree.

    Anyway, to have more children than average and be skinny and well-groomed is the ultimate mark of high status among women. See: Kate Middleton, Maye Musk, Cate Blanchett, Beyoncé, that fitness trainer from “What’s your excuse?” poster, etc.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  129. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    In all these things, we’re looking at probabilities rather than certainties, of course, but the evidence is strong on this.

    The authors of one of the studies, to which I linked, write as much:

    Finally, we believe that arguments about selection can be taken too far, and end up implying deterministically that individuals have no power to affect their odds of achieving success in relationships or other areas. We take the view that both selection and personal choices matter for how life unfolds. In this report, we focus more attention on experiences that people can control to some degree. With the help of our research, we hope current and future couples will better understand the factors that appear to contribute to building a healthy, loving marriage in contemporary America.

    But even without the data, what they propose is commonsense:

    But there are ways to effectively navigate this new, complicated reality. First, people should realize the importance of the past. What happens in Vegas—everything you do before settling down in marriage—may not stay there. The ghosts of prior romances can haunt new ones. Those who have had more romantic experiences—for example, more sexual or cohabiting partners—are more likely to have lower-quality marriages than those with a less complicated romantic history. It is common among social scientists to dismiss these associations as being attributable to preexisting risks based in family, socio-economic context, or underlying personality traits (i.e., selection). Indeed, such background factors and prior risks matter quite a bit. At the same time, many associations between life experiences and marital quality do not disappear even after researchers control for background factors. Moreover, prior experiences of the sort we have emphasized here also reflect behaviors that people have some control over, and their choices can either constrain or protect their romantic and life options in the future. Avoiding one particularly high-risk relationship or avoiding having a child before marriage may alter the course of a person’s life significantly, whatever his or her family and economic background.

    And as you know, I am always on about building a community and that applies to marriage as well:

    Finally, rituals and community matter. One of the most surprising findings to come out of our study concerned the wedding day. We found that couples who had more than 150 guests at their ceremony had the greatest marital quality down the line. We think this finding has to do with making a public declaration of commitment and having community support. The more support a couple has, the better they are able to navigate the occasional choppy waters associated with marriage. Many couples would do well to consider ways to be more connected, as couples, with others in the community. Maintaining important friendships and family connections, making new friends together, and getting involved in the community may enhance a couple’s relationship in multiple ways (Amato, Booth, Johnson, & Rogers, 2007).

  130. Twinkie says:
    @Toronto Russian

    Anyway, to have more children than average and be skinny and well-groomed is the ultimate mark of high status among women.

    My main home is in a super zip of super zips while my farmhouse is in Appalachia (and it’s on the “right” side of the mountains, so it’s not exactly the worst of Appalachia).

    They are worlds apart, but one of the first things one notes is the dramatic increase of obesity, especially among women, as one drives from the former to the latter. I literally go from seeing very trim and fit moms decked out in Barbour and Le Chameau to women 50-100 lbs. overweight wearing left-over 80’s clothes.

    I get angry when I hear about “white privilege” and want to drag by the collar those who use such terms through that area.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Toronto Russian
  131. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    Yes, we do work just as hard as you do

    My wife would never say this, because she nursed me back to normalcy after I came home hurt from overseas. And this is a woman who worked to put food on the table and took care of the kids (and me) while I was out of action. My wife is extremely gritty and strong (she was a high-caliber athlete in college), but she’s realistic enough to know that jobs for men and women are not equally tough by any objective metric.

    And I know a thing or two about a woman’s work, because once I recovered somewhat I took care of the kids and educated them while my wife worked. I still homeschool my children from a teenager to a child barely beyond being a toddler.

    If that’s too personal and anecdotal, read the relevant stats. Men work disproportionately in more dangerous and back-breaking professions. There is a reason why men have more stress, are more likely to be injured or killed at work, are more likely to be addicted to pain killers, and die earlier than women.

    at least those of us who don’t have maids

    What percentage of women have maids in America? You don’t have it any worse than the vast majority of American women, because you don’t have one.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  132. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    A woman has a choice when dealing with a cad.

    You completely ignored my point about the man who would have been her husband not having any choice in the matter.

    Don’t conflate a poor choice/judgment by a woman with a violent crime, a gross violation of both her dignity and her body inflicted upon her by another.

    Here we have, yet again, that very strange notion that, while both force and fraud are impermissible means to separate a man from his money, only brute force should be off limits when it comes to inducing a woman to have sex.

    You massively underestimate the rage and sense of violation a woman who has been lied into bed experiences as a result.

    I suggest you drop this, because it comes off as completely unhinged.

    Twinkie, you seem to have some difficulty facing up to the full logical implications of the things you claim to believe/embrace.

  133. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    What percentage of women have maids in America? You don’t have it any worse than the vast majority of American women, because you don’t have one.

    I didn’t say I did. I said I work just as hard as my husband, not that I work harder than most other women.

    There is a reason why men have more stress, are more likely to be injured or killed at work, are more likely to be addicted to pain killers, and die earlier than women.

    Sorry, but being responsible for multiple small children who have no sense of danger is far more stressful than most mens’ jobs. A moment’s inattention can be life-threatening. Most men are well-aware of this.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
  134. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    From your own link:

    It could be that these underlying traits or experiences, rather than the behaviors we analyzed, explain the associations reported here. This objection applies to most research that is not based on randomized experiments. We cannot prove causal associations between the personal and couple factors we explore and marital quality.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  135. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    Here is what I found:

    Additionally, more sexual partners before marriage were negatively associated with marital quality for women (b = -.061), not for men (b = -.004).

    .061

    I’m not well-versed in statistics, but I would assume this is an underwhelming correlation to say the least. Correct me if I’m wrong. Not only can you not prove causation; you don’t even have much of a correlation.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  136. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    Sorry, but being responsible for multiple small children who have no sense of danger is far more stressful than most mens’ jobs. A moment’s inattention can be life-threatening. Most men are well-aware of this.

    BTW Twinkie, this is all tangential anyway. I’m sure there are plenty of couples where the husband works harder than the wife. I doubt they are the majority, but I can’t know that for certain. The point is that a home is the place where you can have an unguarded moment from time to time and everyone takes it in stride because you are family. If you are constantly on your guard, then you are in fact a servant, but then that is what I think many men around here think marriage is, a master-servant relationship, though they wouldn’t say so directly.

  137. @Rosie

    “Sorry, but being responsible for multiple small children who have no sense of danger is far more stressful than most mens’ jobs.”

    LOL You might be clinically insane.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Anonymous
  138. Rosie says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    LOL You might be clinically insane.

    Lol. Meanwhile, here in the world, moms know that if they leave their husbands alone with more than two small children for any length of time, he’s liable to have a nervous breakdown. Either that, or he’ll just cope by lettingthem run wild, and your house will have to be declared a federal disaster area.

    Notice that when you go to the grocery store, Dads rarely have more than one child with them, and almost never more than two. They can’t handle it. Fortunately, most are much more appreciative of their wives efforts than you.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Twinkie
  139. Anonymous[359] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    There’s nothing stopping these guys from having “orphan” parties, where you throw a party with people in the same situation. I used to have them when I was younger and estranged from my family. You can’t pick your family but you can pick your friends.

  140. @Mark G.

    “I don’t know how you can reverse this once you start going down this road.”

    Easy! Just vote for A O Cortez! No more nasty oil and coal. We’ll have solar and wind and it will all be freeeeeeeeeee!*

    *A liberal delusion. Hard-nosed physics energy in/out calculations show that solar and wind are net money losers. Our economy would contract severely if we adopted them exclusively. Massive die off of the human race would follow. AOC is an idiot. Like many liberals, she has big Ideas but never bothered to study the math and science that would enable her to subject her grandiose schemes to critical scrutiny.

  141. Anonymous[359] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    Rosie, like obwandiyag, add nothing to the conversation.

  142. Anonymous[359] • Disclaimer says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    She is insane. I’ve taken care of multiple children and I’ve never been stressed about their safety. But I’m not the typical hysterical female. Rosie is a good example of why women suck these days.

  143. Rosie says:

    She is insane. I’ve taken care of multiple children and I’ve never been stressed about their safety. But I’m not the typical hysterical female. Rosie is a good example of why women suck these days.

    I don’t suppose the human species would have gotten off the ground if we weren’t “hysterical” about children’s safety. Civilization requires bipedalism, which in turn requires developmentally early childbirth, and therefore an extremely high level of maternal solicitude and vigilance.

    https://babygooroo.com/articles/10-most-common-choking-hazards

    • Replies: @Rosie
  144. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    BTW, I sincerely hope you never offer to babysit for anyone, given your cavalier attitude towards children’s needs.

    • Replies: @iffen
  145. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    Rosie,

    It’s not rocket science, just don’t drop them on their head. That said, the value of “child care” is not properly recognized in our economy and society.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  146. Rosie says:
    @iffen

    It’s not rocket science, just don’t drop them on their head.

    Imagine thinking this is all there is to responsible childcare. You can’t fix stupid.

    • Replies: @iffen
  147. @Twinkie

    They are worlds apart, but one of the first things one notes is the dramatic increase of obesity, especially among women, as one drives from the former to the latter. I literally go from seeing very trim and fit moms decked out in Barbour and Le Chameau to women 50-100 lbs. overweight wearing left-over 80’s clothes.

    This is international. Provincial Russian wedding guests:

    Muscovites (photo: Moscow’s Teacher of the year 2017 winners) are a mixed bag but generally thinner.

  148. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    moms know that if they leave their husbands alone with more than two small children for any length of time, he’s liable to have a nervous breakdown. Either that, or he’ll just cope by lettingthem run wild, and your house will have to be declared a federal disaster area.

    Notice that when you go to the grocery store, Dads rarely have more than one child with them, and almost never more than two. They can’t handle it.

    Sounds like you experienced more than a few moments of a “marriage of low quality.”

  149. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    You can’t fix stupid.

    Apparently not.

  150. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    I’m not well-versed in statistics, but I would assume this is an underwhelming correlation to say the least. Correct me if I’m wrong. Not only can you not prove causation; you don’t even have much of a correlation.

    I can’t tell if you suffer from reading comprehension or are deliberately playing dumb/picking-and-choosing, because you want to “win.”

    Causation: http://www.unz.com/anepigone/marriage-is-bliss/#comment-3097764

    Correlations/predictors:
    http://before-i-do.org/

    Moderation Analyses
    Gender. Only two of the findings were moderated significantly by gender, controlling for demographic variables. Having a child or children from prior relationship was negatively associated with marital quality for women (b = -1.72), not for men (b = .055). Additionally, more sexual partners before marriage were negatively associated with marital quality for women (b = -.061), not for men (b = -.004).

    In other words, only two factors exhibited very different predictive powers based on sex of respondent. Put another way, this means having a baby or multiple partners prior to relationship is FAR MORE DAMAGING for women than for men. I know, it’s unfair, but it’s biology.

    Now here is the factor relevant to what I wrote earlier:
    http://before-i-do.org/pdf/table2.pdf

    Premarital predictors of marital quality
    Only had sex with future spouse, no others 23 percent (mean (sd) or percentage) 1.04 (average marital quality) .58 (average marital quality with controls)
    Number of prior sex partners 8.78 (10.72) -0.05 -0.04

    • Replies: @Rosie
  151. Rosie says:

    Put another way, this means having a baby or multiple partners prior to relationship is FAR MORE DAMAGING for women than for men. I know, it’s unfair, but it’s biology.

    That doesn’t matter if it’s not particularly damaging in any case. Moreover, even if premarital sex did seriously damage a woman’s prospects for a successful marriage. it still doesn’t justify the shitty old double standard you are defending. I will repeat myself yet again since you seem to be missing the point: If a man pumps and dumps multiple women, thus “ruining” them for marriage, then his actions are antisocial, even reprehensible, according to your own premises, harmful not only to those women, but also the men who might otherwise have been happily married to them.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  152. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    And BTW Twinkie, I’m not remotely interested in your proffered solution of informal shaming and stigma “for cads and sluts alike.” We know from bitter experience how that will turn out. No, if you are going to claim that premarital sex renders us unsuitable as marriage partners, you need to put your freedom where your mouth is and support serious legal sanctions for fornicators of either sex. Perhaps then pump amd dumpers will at least learn to keep their mouths shut.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  153. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    That doesn’t matter if it’s not particularly damaging in any case. Moreover, even if premarital sex did seriously damage a woman’s prospects for a successful marriage.

    Read the numbers under “Only had sex with future spouse, no others.”

    I will repeat myself yet again since you seem to be missing the point: If a man pumps and dumps multiple women, thus “ruining” them for marriage, then his actions are antisocial, even reprehensible, according to your own premises, harmful not only to those women, but also the men who might otherwise have been happily married to them.

    Unlike you, I subscribe to the idea that women have moral and legal agency.

    Do you want legal sanctions if I promised (verbally) that I’d be your best friend, and then ended up using you for emotional support and left you hanging when you needed some comfort too? Are you going to equate that with someone who hits you on the head and takes your purse?

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Rosie
  154. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    I’m not remotely interested in your proffered solution of informal shaming and stigma “for cads and sluts alike.” We know from bitter experience how that will turn out

    For someone who claims to be a “race realist,” you seem utterly determined to ignore a factor that is much more deterministic than race, namely sexual biology.

    God made us differently, and we bear different crosses. It’s not “Women and children first” when a boat sinks for no reason. It’s also for a very good reason that when the house alarm goes off, I’m the one – not my wife – who puts on the body armor, picks up the rifle, and goes to face the unknown intruders.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Rosie
  155. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    Are you going to equate that with someone who hits you on the head and takes your purse?

    Actually, depending on the severity of the blow to the head, that might actually be less traumatic than the situation you describe. Likewise, forcible rape is in some ways less hurtful than pump and dump, because the forcible rapist does not attempt to offload their guilt on their victims.

    But I digress. To answer your question, we could avoid all these nasty proof problems by simply going back to the old way of recriminalizing fornication outright.

    Unlike you, I subscribe to the idea that women have moral and legal agency.

    So no criminal sanctions for fraud then? Since the victim should have known better?

    You still ignore the harm to the man she would have married had she not been “ruined.”

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  156. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    God made us differently, and we bear different crosses. It’s not “Women and children first” when a boat sinks for no reason. It’s also for a very good reason that when the house alarm goes off, I’m the one – not my wife – who puts on the body armor, picks up the rifle, and goes to face the unknown intruders.

    There is indeed a very good reason for “women and children first.” Specifically, children are the future and without women, there are no children. Herein lies precisely the problem with your hypocritical and self-serving position:

    From a demographic point, pumping and dumping is tantamount to femicide. If men follow your shitty advice, “ruined” women will have the same number of children as Mollie Tibbetts. That is, none. Cads are, in fact, an existential threat to the community, again assuming your premises. Criminal sanctions are considered common sense for far less, e.g. your purse-snatching example above.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  157. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    Read the numbers under “Only had sex with future spouse, no others.”

    What about them? It is incumbent upon you to make your case.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  158. Truth says:

    Well, OK, I think we’ve discovered why you guys have such low “white female participation” in your WN movement.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  159. Rosie says:
    @Truth

    Well, OK, I think we’ve discovered why you guys have such low “white female participation” in your WN movement.

    “Twinkie” here isn’t even White, yet he tells White men to reject all White women who aren’t pure as the driven snow. Of course, he apparently helped himself to one of the few who meet that standard.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Truth
  160. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    Of course, he apparently helped himself to one of the few who meet that standard.

    Nothing stopped other men from trying. I’m the only one who courted her properly. Almost all the men in our college were looking for hookups and young women of easy virtue. I was not.

    White men to reject all White women who aren’t pure as the driven snow

    I tell young men AND women of all races to be virtuous, and for the virtuous to seek each other.

    Your message seems to be: “Young women should be able to sleep around, maybe have a baby or two out of wedlock, but then still should be able to marry men who are less morally compromised than they are. And guys who seduce women and don’t comit should be jailed like rapists. And unmarried women with babies should be supported by tax dollars (i.e. other people’s money), so they can ditch men who are not up to their liking. Oh, and where is my maid? And, nonwhites, get out of the country.”

    White nationalists… only the finest people. This will succeed.

    Why are you even here wasting your time? If your man can’t watch the kids properly without having a “nervous breakdown,” in your own words, shouldn’t you be tending to your kids instead of arguing with people on the Internet?

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Audacious Epigone
  161. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    Actually, depending on the severity of the blow to the head, that might actually be less traumatic than the situation you describe.

    So you want to criminalize being a bad friend (to you). I got my answer. You are, I am sorry to say, deranged.

  162. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    What about them? It is incumbent upon you to make your case.

    Did you suddenly lose the ability to read numbers?

  163. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    Cads are, in fact, an existential threat to the community, again assuming your premises. Criminal sanctions are considered common sense for far less, e.g. your purse-snatching example above.

    How about women exercise their moral agency and say no to cads? Just like I tell young men to be virtuous and seek out virtuous women.

    You want to have the cake and eat it too. Sorry, nature doesn’t allow that. Not even for you.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  164. Truth says:
    @Rosie

    I am well aware of Twinkles story, he’s a smart guy, and probably a good guy who seems ridiculously naive and comically insecure.

  165. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    Nothing stopped other men from trying. I’m the only one who courted her properly. Almost all the men in our college were looking for hookups and young women of easy virtue. I was not.

    Lol. Thanks for that little nugget.

  166. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    You want to have the cake and eat it too. Sorry, nature doesn’t allow that. Not even for you.

    Au contraire. It’s you who want to have your cake and eat it too. You insist upon keeping those aspects of the sexual revolution that you like, and getting rid of the rest. Very typical.

    So you want to criminalize being a bad friend (to you). I got my answer. You are, I am sorry to say, deranged.

    Nope. I just wanto recriminalize fornication, a great deal more objective than being a bad friend. That way, we wouldn’t have to worry about intent, motives, consent, etc. It would simplify matters a great deal. I suspect prosecution for fornication would be very rare, again assuming cads kept their filthy mouths shut.

    Did you suddenly lose the ability to read numbers?

    Did you suddenly lose the ability to wrote English. I’m expected to develop my own arguments, and I’m not going to do your work for you.

    I know how to read this number:

    -.061

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  167. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    You insist upon keeping those aspects of the sexual revolution that you like

    Such as what? My wife and I are traditional Catholics. Try to understand what that means in terms of human sexuality. Here is a preview: sex only within marriage, no contraception, and obviously no abortion.

    we wouldn’t have to worry about intent, motives, consent

    Right. We’ll just remove moral agency from human beings. Or you could have exercised good judgment and just said no.

    Did you suddenly lose the ability to wrote English.

    Oh, the irony. (In case you don’t get it: incorrect verb conjugation and punctuation at the end.)

    Let me quote myself from upthread:

    And when a woman has known no other man but you, she will love you, honor you, comfort you, and make certain that you know there is always one person in this world who will make you feel at home. She will give you her all.

    In order to win a virtuous woman like that, you have to practice virtue yourself. You have to earn that trust and sacrifice from her by giving your all without falling into the easy temptations of the world.

    Now the relevant predictor:

    Only had sex with future spouse, no others 23 percent (mean (sd) or percentage) 1.04 (average marital quality) .58 (average marital quality with controls)

    Is that clear enough for you or do you need stick figures in crayons?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  168. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    Right. We’ll just remove moral agency from human beings. Or you could have exercised good judgment and just said no.

    I don’t buy your feigned concern for women’s humanity, Twinkie. You are, just like the most extreme misogynists I encounter in this movement, disingenuously claiming that the only way to hold women responsible is to never hold men responsible. If you hold both men and women responsible, you’re somehow letting men off the hook. This must be that new math.

    Is that clear enough for you or do you need stick figures in crayons?

    Who here understands Twinkie’s figures well enough to explain them in two or three sentences of plain English? If I must, Ill go back and read the whole article, but I’d prefer not to.

  169. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    If you hold both men and women responsible, you’re somehow letting men off the hook.

    *letting women off the hook.

  170. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    feigned concern for women’s humanity

    Not only do I love my wife, I have daughters whom I love more than my own life.

    If you hold both men and women responsible

    I want both men and women to exercise virtue. You are the only one who keeps insisting that women who were sluts should be excused, because only cads are responsible (and should be jailed).

    Your deranged level of hysterics and venom toward such men all the while imputing zero agency toward women of easy virtue lead me to think that this is too personal for you. So I suspect reason is futile in this discussion. Please go save your husband from a nervous breakdown.

    My patience has run out.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  171. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    I want both men and women to exercise virtue. You are the only one who keeps insisting that women who were sluts should be excused, because only cads are responsible (and should be jailed).

    I never said they should be jailed. I said that you would want them jailed if you actually believed that their actions ruined women for marriage. You don’t believe that, of course. You just say that in order to justify the double standard you inexplicably seek to defend.

    That you are disingenuous is evident from the fact that you claim that fornication is not a mere private wrong between two citizens, but rather a serious threat to the community as a whole. Then, you insist upon treating it as a mere interpersonal trifle, barely worthy of public notice. Which is it?

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Twinkie
    , @Twinkie
  172. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    Your deranged level of hysterics and venom toward such men all the while imputing zero agency toward women of easy virtue lead me to think that this is too personal for you. So I suspect reason is futile in this discussion. Please go save your husband from a nervous breakdown.

    Once again, by stating the obvious fact that both parties to the transaction are equally culpable and responsible for any harm that results, I am denying women’s “agency.” Patently absurd.

  173. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    That you are disingenuous is evident from the fact that you claim that fornication is not a mere private wrong between two citizens, but rather a serious threat to the community as a whole.

    Obesity kills more people than just about anything else in our country. It causes serious harm to the community at large (and I pay for it even if I am healthy and trim). It doesn’t mean we should criminalize unhealthy diets.

    If you valued freedom, you would realize that certain things cannot be controlled by force of the state and should be left to the moral agency of individuals and communal – social – judgment. Remember that virtue only exists if it is exercised voluntarily.

    You keep avoiding the salient question. Why don’t the women just say no? If they are forced, it’s called rape and that is criminally punished. Or are you suggesting that women are like children and too feeble-minded and therefore must be prevented from making decisions of their own?

  174. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    if you actually believed that their actions ruined women for marriage.

    That’s not what I wrote.

  175. Rosie says:

    Why don’t the women just say no?

    We do. You all refuse to take no for an answer, choosing instead to relentlessly wear us down until we go along with it, hoping to keep you around. As you admit yourself, men are increasingly impatient.

    Or are you suggesting that women are like children and too feeble-minded and therefore must be prevented from making decisions of their own?

    Neither women nor men have some sort of sacred right to “make decisions of their own” about anything and everything. There is no such right where the vital interests of the community are at stake.

    And something definitely needs to be done about the obesity epidemic. It’s rather more complicated than /he fornication issue, because there is no such thing as a moderate, healthy amount of fornication, as is the case with sweet, rich foods.

    Personally, I think the appropriate remedy for a pump and dump is a facial rearrangement in a dark alley courtesy of a girl’s brother’s, cousins, etc. Of course, we’re too civilized for such rough justice nowadays.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  176. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    choosing instead to relentlessly wear us down until we go along with it, hoping to keep you around.

    That’s not saying no. That’s saying yes, unless there was force involved, in which case it’s rape. Sounds like an excuse for poor impulse control.

    Personally, I think the appropriate remedy for a pump and dump is a facial rearrangement in a dark alley courtesy of a girl’s brother’s, cousins, etc. Of course, we’re too civilized for such rough justice nowadays.

    And what’s the remedy for the other half of the fornicating couple?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  177. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    That’s not saying no. That’s saying yes, unless there was force involved, in which case it’s rape. Sounds like an excuse for poor impulse control.

    Now who is refusing to impute agency to whom? You continue to refuse to acknowledge the hurt and humiliation involved in being used for sex and then summarily discarded like a piece of trash by aman who just the other day couldn’t live a moment without you.

    And what’s the remedy for the other half of the fornicating couple?

    A broken heart is it’s own punishment.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Audacious Epigone
  178. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    Now who is refusing to impute agency to whom?

    To clarify: You ask, why do women not say no? I gave you an answer. Now, I’ll ask you, why do men importune, manipulate, and lie to women to get sex? I suppose your answer will be something along the lines of boys will be boys, but of course girls will also be girls. We are by nature yielding and accommodating. Would you have it any other way?

    Twinkie, you need a new handle. Twinkies are full of sweet, gooey goodness on the inside. You, on the other hand, are pitiless, utterly indifferent to the feelings of mistreated women whom you deem unworthy, so long as a man’s behavior isn’t beyond the pale according to your own reckoning.

  179. Mark G. says:
    @Rosie

    You say men manipulate women for sex. Of course they do but are you claiming women never use the potential of sex to manipulate men? Women never manipulate men? Seriously? Women are”yielding and accommodating”? You are really quite funny! You know the first rule when you find your self in a hole is to stop digging but you seem incapable of doing that in exchanges on here.

    • Agree: Twinkie
    • Replies: @Rosie
  180. @Audacious Epigone

    Well,

    I am certainly tempted by younger women. However, the reality is usually matters. All one has to do is spend time teaching and working around younger people, with younger women, and though I have met some wonderful younger women — and seriously desired to have a son – Henry the Eight I am — kidding sort of — it’s hard to imagine a younger women appreciating aging. Laugh.

    Though I will admit the women I aged with are oft infected with all manner of liberal notions They would be unwilling to abide my conservative ethos, though I find many of them attractive as well.

    Let’s face it being poor really ______.

    Laugh.

  181. Rosie says:
    @Mark G.

    Of course they do but are you claiming women never use the potential of sex to manipulate men?

    In what ways do you think women use the potential for sex to manipulate men? I would imagine that some such manipulations are salutary, while others are not.

    Women are”yielding and accommodating”? You are really quite funny!

    Do you have an argument?

    • Replies: @Mark G.
  182. @Twinkie

    young women of easy virtue

    Ha, that sounds like a good name for a popular dime store novel.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  183. @Rosie

    Short of bringing back the patriarchy, women are the gatekeepers of sex. The social shaming of men will never be as effective as the social shaming of women. While that doesn’t necessarily mean caddery shouldn’t be shunned, it needs to be taken into account that while socially shaming men won’t be very effective, it will take some of the pressure off of women to play their gatekeeper roles and so will probably lead to *more* pumping-and-dumping than if all the social onus was on women. Blaming PUAs gives women a cop-out.

    It’s not ‘fair’, but c’est la vie. In a liberalized society, it’s primarily up to women.

    • Agree: Twinkie
  184. @Rosie

    The man gets smashed up, maybe even killed in an alley, and the woman gets off with a broken heart?

    That’s not going to go over too well!

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  185. @Rosie

    If there is significant social pressure against sexual flings, women will yield to that social pressure on account of being accommodating. That there is no longer social pressure against it is the root of the problem, I think.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @EliteCommInc.
    , @Rosie
  186. Mark G. says:
    @Rosie

    Last Friday night I went to see a girl. When I left she gave me a big smile and said she loved me. Last time you and me had an exchange you said money I make should be taken from me by the government so I can’t spend it on the girl who loves me and given to single moms on welfare who I don’t know or care about and who don’t care about me. You are a female and I don’t consider you to be “yielding and accommodating” or “agreeable”. I consider you to be an evil person for advocating something like that. There are so many women like you now and that is a major problem.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  187. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    The man gets smashed up, maybe even killed in an alley, and the woman gets off with a broken heart?

    Feminism, in all its forms, including Rosie’s WN variety, is not about equality, but supremacy. In reality, it leads to unhappiness for all parties involved.

    The darkly ironic thing about Rosie’s paradigm (i.e. women lack agency and fault and can be pestered into sex, her male relatives should assault her sexual partner to right the dishonor, etc.) is basically Pakistan, minus the honor killings.

    It also seems not to occur to her that the said male might also have relatives and such “justice” would quickly escalate into clan wars.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  188. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    If there is significant social pressure against sexual flings, women will yield to that social pressure on account of being accommodating. That there is no longer social pressure against it is the root of the problem, I think.

    Yes. But Rosie doesn’t want “slut-shaming.”

  189. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Ha, that sounds like a good name for a popular dime store novel.

    Sadly, it is also known was the 21st century Western world.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  190. iffen says:

    Trying to get men to restrain themselves and not try to mate with every woman is uphill.

    Trying to get women to be very selective when mating is downhill.

    Men deserve more credit for battling uphill than women deserve for going downhill. Women do not get credit for going against their nature but men do.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  191. @Audacious Epigone

    While I agree that men should be virtuous and I suspect minus the popular myths probably are until college or certainly after HS. Women have traditionally been expected to hold a firm line.

    I think the “old school” norms here historically correct for western populations. Until the late 1960’s most relations outside of marriage were taboo — and taboo I mean unacceptable as the norm, not that they did not occur.

    The increase of preventative methods and killing/murdering children in the womb have been conduits of removing the previous norm. And as such women ought to be held accountable for their relational choices. Rape is occurs to less than 1% of the female population and on the matter of rape, I think it remains accurate that men are raped by half or twice as often than women.
    —————–

    It’s a peculiar conversation to assess more culpability because the interplay between men and women is the courtship process which I think remains largely, men pursue women and women behave to be pursued. More than half the population is female. Marriage remains a primary goal. feminists have made some inroads, but trying to upend this dynamic more than a million years old is one that not even technology will topple, at least not yet.

    It has been an odd conversation to read, interesting but odd.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Audacious Epigone
  192. Rosie says:
    @iffen

    Trying to get women to be very selective when mating is downhill.

    Utter nonsense. What you all fail to appreciate is that women desperately crave intimacy, which gives men power. You all seem to assume that men have needs ans women have the power to meet their needs. The reality is far more mutual. Unless women have the bargaining power to get men to bother courting them without putting out, they will usually, and more than likely, put out.

    Men set the sexual tone in society, not women. Women always prefer sex within a committed relationship; men prefer sex within a committed relationship only when they perceive a scarcity of mates. Otherwise, they prefer to play the field. When men are scarce, their socio sexual preferences prevail. When men are abundant (willing to commit and not using porn), women’s sociosexual preferences prevail.

    In a sociosexual environment, it is very difficult, and herein lies the moral ugliness of the blame-women approach, for any one woman to withhold sex for commitment. Imagine a powerless factory worker demanding a wage hike. They won’t get it. What is needed is concerted action. That would have to be top-down, from the commanding heights of the culture into the general population.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @iffen
  193. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    Truly, this whole issue has got to be one of the most astonishing attempts by one population to offload their failures into another that the world has ever seen.

    On no other context is the reluctant partner in crime considered more culpable than the enthusiastic one.

    https://archive.unews.utah.edu/news_releases/men-want-commitment-when-women-are-scarce/

  194. Rosie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    If there is significant social pressure against sexual flings, women will yield to that social pressure on account of being accommodating. That there is no longer social pressure against it is the root of the problem, I think.

    You are overestimating the potential of shaming to contain “sexual flings.” There have always been sexual flings. The difference is that girls got pregnant, and young men duty-bound to marry them.

    The separation of sex from reproduction has created a whole new world.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Audacious Epigone
  195. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    It also seems not to occur to her that the said male might also have relatives and such “justice” would quickly escalate into clan wars.

    Easy fix: man keeps mouth shut about the affair.

  196. Rosie says:
    @Mark G.

    You are a female and I don’t consider you to be “yielding and accommodating” or “agreeable”.

    I am certainly much less so than most.

    I consider you to be an evil person for advocating something like that.

    Feelings mutual.

    • Replies: @Mark G.
  197. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    BTW if I’m not mistaken, studies have been done on time lapses between marriages and childbirth, showing that women routinely got pregnant, then got married, then had the child. Like in the Madonna video. I wouldn’t know where to find that now, though.

  198. Rosie says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    I think the “old school” norms here historically correct for western populations. Until the late 1960’s most relations outside of marriage were taboo — and taboo I mean unacceptable as the norm, not that they did not occur.

    It wasn’t until 1972 that single people had the right to access birth control. I would much rather that not have happened. It made it extremely difficult for women to consistently say no. But here again, you won’t find much enthusiasm on the dissident right for supporting a reversal of this policy. The first, last, and only resort to promote committed sexual relationships is shaming women. Men’s freedom to pursue casual sex is treated as perfectly sacrosanct.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  199. Mark G. says:
    @Rosie

    Ok, I supported my statement why I think you are an evil person and you replied with an unsupported statement that you feel the same about me. What exactly have I done that makes me evil? Is it that I think men and women should have voluntary relationships instead of involuntary ones? You said previously you feel the animus some men feel for women is based on the fact that women are not for sale. However, when a female sells her vote to a politician in exchange for unearned benefits she is engaged in selling there and you shouldn’t be pretending otherwise. I think a male rightly feels anger when women vote to have some politician transfer his income over to them. If he doesn’t do it then the government will send agents to arrest him. If he resists arrest, then the government agents will shoot and kill him. So women who vote for this are supporting having the government kill men if needed. I think both men and women can engage in exploitation of the opposite sex. I think that is why the voluntary institution of marriage was developed. It is an arrangement between equals where each side has equal responsibilities and receives equals benefits. If one side doesn’t think they will equally benefit they don’t get married or look for someone else to marry. To replace this voluntary relationship with an involuntary one is a mistake. Not only is it wrong but the women who support that are too stupid to even realize it’s not going to work. Men will just turn into slackers who spend all their time watching tv, smoking weed or playing video games. Or they will turn into the pump and dump pickup artists. This is exactly what is happening. The marriage rate in this country has dropped from ninety percent to sixty percent. This is the result of women voting for a welfare state that benefits them at the expense of men.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  200. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    What you all fail to appreciate is that women desperately crave intimacy, which gives men power.

    I am unaware of any studies that show women crave intimacy more than men. It is a trait common to both. If anything, men have more of it. It is “Band of Brothers,” and not Band of Sisters” after all.

    Women always prefer sex within a committed relationship

    BS, many women have bought into the idea that they have the right to sexual behavior that is more typical of men. Acting on that belief frequently has bad consequences for the woman.

    men prefer sex within a committed relationship

    No, men prefer sex. Our culture has to should modulate that behavior.

    herein lies the moral ugliness of the blame-women approach

    I don’t, but I don’t expect that to slow you down.

    What is needed is concerted action. That would have to be top-down, from the commanding heights of the culture into the general population.

    Don’t hold your breath; they are the ones that drove this bus to this cliff.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Rosie
  201. Rosie says:
    @Mark G.

    What exactly have I done that makes me evil?

    You would rather women and children go hungry than pay a few bucks in taxes, despite the fact that White women do not abuse welfare by deliberately having children out of wedlock.

    This is the result of women voting for a welfare state that benefits them at the expense of men.

    Men benefit from welfare too. I believe in second chances for all. Humane, safe prisons with opportunities for rehabilitative training, drug treatment etc. Men and women both make mistakes that cost taxpayers money.

  202. Rosie says:
    @iffen

    BS, many women have bought into the idea that they have the right to sexual behavior that is more typical of men. Acting on that belief frequently has bad consequences for the woman.

    Indeed. Faced with cognitive dissonance, people often change their views rather than their behavior. Human beings are like.

  203. @EliteCommInc.

    I think it remains accurate that men are raped by half or twice as often than women.

    By other men, you mean (ie prison)?

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  204. @Rosie

    The separation of sex from reproduction has created a whole new world.

    On that we’re in complete agreement.

    • Agree: Twinkie
  205. Rosie says:
    @iffen

    I am unaware of any studies that show women crave intimacy more than men. It is a trait common to both. If anything, men have more of it. It is “Band of Brothers,” and not Band of Sisters” after all.

    Then why all the pumping and dumping?

    Don’t hold your breath; they are the ones that drove this bus to this cliff.

    Agreed.

    • Replies: @iffen
  206. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    Then why all the pumping and dumping?

    It’s called a biological sex drive.

    Men do not think that sex requires intimacy. It’s a great toe tingler if it is there, but that’s all.

    Personal emotional connection may or may not include a sexual connection.

  207. Rosie says:

    It’s called a biological sex drive.

    I get that, but if they valued intimacy as much as we do, they would pump and hold rather than pump and dump.

    Do you think women have inborn biological drive to seek physical intimacy (cuddles) and bonding with men?

    • Replies: @iffen
  208. Rosie says:

    Since 1969, however, shotgun marriage has gradually disappeared (see table 1). For whites, in particular, the shotgun marriage rate began its decline at almost the same time as the reproductive technology shock. And the disappearance of shotgun marriages has contributed heavily to the rise in the out-of-wedlock birth rate for both white and black women. In fact, about 75 percent of the increase in the white out-of-wedlock first-birth rate, and about 60 percent of the black increase, between 1965 and 1990 is directly attributable to the decline in shotgun marriages. If the shotgun marriage rate had remained steady from 1965 to 1990, white out-of-wedlock births would have risen only 25 percent as much as they have. Black out-of-wedlock births would have increased only 40 percent as much….

    The increased availability of contraception and abortion made shotgun weddings a thing of the past. Women who were willing to get an abortion or who reliably used contraception no longer found it necessary to condition sexual relations on a promise of marriage in the event of pregnancy. But women who wanted children, who did not want an abortion for moral or religious reasons, or who were unreliable in their use of contraception found themselves pressured to participate in premarital sexual relations without being able to exact a promise of marriage in case of pregnancy. These women feared, correctly, that if they refused sexual relations, they would risk losing their partners. Sexual activity without commitment was increasingly expected in premarital relationships.

    https://www.brookings.edu/research/an-analysis-of-out-of-wedlock-births-in-the-united-states/

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  209. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    These women feared, correctly, that if they refused sexual relations, they would risk losing their partners.

    That is putting the cart before the horse. You can’t offer sex first, then refuse. It doesn’t work like that. They shouldn’t be “partners” in the first place.

    Here is a thought. Don’t offer sex first. Insist on being courted and getting to know the man well first. That’ll weed out the cads, because they won’t wait for all that. Seriously, there is self-selection here at work for the long-horizoned.

    But I do agree this woudn’t work well if you were a cantankerous, ill-tempered shrew. If you don’t offer sex upfront, you’d have to charm your knight of a suitor with wit, intelligence, and grace… and with the prospect of a long, pleasing life together. I suppose that’s why there used to be an unpleasant old maid aunt in every family. 🙂

    • Replies: @Rosie
  210. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    That is putting the cart before the horse. You can’t offer sex first, then refuse. It doesn’t work like that. They shouldn’t be “partners” in the first place.

    Stop playing dumb. By partners, they mean dating partners, not sexual partners.

    Being a tradcat as you claim, you should know better than to blame the chaos that results from artificial birth control on women and defend men’s right to use them for fruitless casual sex.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  211. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    defend men’s right to use them for fruitless casual sex.

    I do that nowhere. You have a very bad habit of imagining straw men in your mind and imputing them to your interlocutors.

    I am categorically opposed to casual sex. I just don’t believe in criminalizing it for either party if there is adult consent. I reserve social opprobrium for that. You, on the other hand, reserve “heart break” for women who break traditional sexual norms, but prison or vigilante justice for the men who do so. It’s pure hysterics.

    Finish reading the study yet? Or are you still begging some man here to write a Cliff Notes summary for you? And why do you keep ignoring the following?

    Here is a thought. Don’t offer sex first. Insist on being courted and getting to know the man well first. That’ll weed out the cads, because they won’t wait for all that. Seriously, there is self-selection here at work for the long-horizoned.

    You keep on insisting that women should open their legs first to men they don’t know well and then hope for the best. That, as you put it so well, is a recipe for heart breaks… and, as I put it above (and supported by studies), is something that is likely to affect other later relationships.

    Men and women are not the same. Women can get pregnant. Men can’t. Therefore, barring coercion (which is a crime), it is up to women themselves to guard their virtue, not their brothers or male cousins. As a father, I can only educate and inculcate my daughters with virtue, I can’t go around guarding it for them once they are adults.

    When men and women interact (or when people of any sex interact), there is no guarantee of good will or pleasant feelings. There is also no guaranteed that feelings of intimacy or friendship would remain unchanged over time. The fact that you equate negative consequences of voluntary associations of poor judgment with criminal fraud, assault, and rape says you have seriously distorted sense of freedom and basic human nature.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  212. iffen says:
    @Rosie

    Do you think women have inborn biological drive to seek physical intimacy (cuddles) and bonding with men?

    I think that both have the desire (and need) for intimacy and touching. I think that men have a different bonding response which is triggered among men given the correct environment. (That is why women should not be allowed in the combat fields.) Men do have a bonding drive that supports the marital bond. Women have a unique nurturing bond that is amplified by giving birth. Men may have a narcissistic trait that is amplified by fathering children.

    All that aside, men do not equate bonding, cuddling, intimacy, etc., etc. with sex. They are two different domains. It’s great with or without (sex). Men are like the lounge lizards that fall in love with someone new every Saturday night only we can “fall in love” in just a few minutes several times a week.

  213. Rosie says:
    @Twinkie

    The fact that you equate negative consequences of voluntary associations of poor judgment with criminal fraud, assault, and rape says you have seriously distorted sense of freedom and basic human nature.

    Consent procured through fraud in the inducement is ordinarily considered inoperative in the law. Promissory fraud can send you to the poor house by wag of punitive damages for breach of contract. Sex, for some reason, is an unprincipled exception.

    https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/promissory-fraud/

    You keep on insisting that women should open their legs first to men they don’t know well and then hope for the best. That, as you put it so well, is a recipe for heart breaks… and, as I put it above (and supported by studies), is something that is likely to affect other later relationships.

    I never said women should do that. I said they will do that. You offer absolutely nothing in the way of practical solutions. Your position amounts to this “I women were impeccable saints, we wouldn’t have any of these problems.” No shit, Sherlock.

    As a father, I can only educate and inculcate my daughters with virtue, I can’t go around guarding it for them once they are adults.

    No, but you could, at a minimum, favor social supports that take the pressure off and make it easier to say no, simply by returning to the legal status quo ante of fifty years ago, which is supported by your Church BTW.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  214. @Audacious Epigone

    I think the last time I looked at the stats prison was the primary but the report by the DOD about three years ago came to a similar finding among the armed forces.

    I was caught completely off guard.

    ——————

    But that is view regarding all crime. We make special efforts to address crime against women and that ‘s fine. But the real issue remains that crimes committed by men against other men outstrips women.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  215. @Rosie

    I actually had to take a peek at the history of condoms to respond.

    https://daily.jstor.org/short-history-of-the-condom/

    https://spafe.com.au/history-of-condoms/

    Condoms were did not really become but required a physician to prescribe it as best as I can make out. But that is a different and trickier issue in my view because based on this,

    https://spafe.com.au/history-of-condoms/

    They seem to have been around even in the west for quite some time. I suspect the legal question varied from state to state.

    The contend that troubles me in your comments is the suggestion that women have not had control over their relations with respect to expression. I just don’t buy that. Women have been the gatekeepers, in fact, the women have the “power of sex”. Something I heard in 1979 and tend to agree with.

    Women say no quite frequently, even to the possibility of courtship, which in fact is saying no that all that comes with it. And I cannot think of anything in male female dynamics that has changed that. What has changed either in truth or perception is that more women are willing to say yes and in fact, expect the ultimate expression from men. The incidence or rape in the US is less than 1% and that is being generous. Social pressure from men has lost it force as a contention in my view by the very advocacy of women. Romance novels are not popular because of men. And have been for more than fifty years. Nothing has complicated this matter more than the frequency of drugs and alcohol in dating scenarios and they are employed to ease the mood and decrease inhibitions. But again, I don’t see vast numbers of men forcing women into using inebriating substances, that too is a choice.

    As a person on the right, there is nothing about right wing advocacy that limits a woman’s freedom of expression. Nothing. If a woman belongs to a certain faith she will have to navigate whether said expression confirms to her practice and respond as she will. But right wingers are not in people’s bedrooms. The advocacy on relations has two primary columns:

    a. relations ought to be reserved for marriage — but that is choice

    b. the consequence of conceiving a child should never be murdering said child in the womb.

    Now from those tiers there are several issues, i.e. parental discretion and control over their children’s relational education and practice, the right to be forced to endorse behavior that is condemned by scripture by approving it or supporting it

    In lieu of killing children in the womb, I fully support the use of contraceptives to prevent conception. If someone is incapable of self control or self management to be celibate or abstain from contact that would lead to conception — by all means prevent the conception of a human being that might not be desired.

  216. @Rosie

    Even now women say “no” more often than they say “yes”. I think you should address that.

  217. In today’s environment I don’t think it can be stressed enough that no one should engage alcohol or other drugs when dating, certainly not while dating alone as opposed to double dating or group outings.

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