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The following graph shows the percentages of people who prefer “the government respect civil liberties, even if that means accepting some risk to public safety”. Residuals show the percentages who prefer “the government ensure public safety, even if that means limiting some civil liberties”:

Most Americans don’t want a shot at liberty if it comes with a chance of death. Between 1775 and 2020, liberty’s stock price crashed through the floor while security’s went to the moon.

Parenthetically, liberals want security and order, conservatives want liberty?! Our political nomenclature is hopeless.

America’s tepid response at the federal level has left states with a lot of discretion over how to proceed from here. That means the old “laboratory of the states” idea is getting another shot. Governor Brian Kemp is planning on firing things back up on Friday, just a couple of days out from this posting. Georgia has been hit relatively hard by coronavirus, though the state’s death rate is still barely half the national rate (the national rate having been driven up substantially by New York’s numbers).

Ostensibly the primary reason for shelter-in-place orders going into effect weeks ago was to prevent the medical system from being overwhelmed by flattening the curve. Fortunately, hitting capacity hasn’t come close to happening anywhere, so the only people who will be at risk from returning to normal in a week are those voluntarily choosing to do so. There is nothing preventing people worried the reopening is happening too soon from remaining sheltered in place.

If we need a test case–to the extent we don’t already have one in South Dakota–we are fortunate it will be comprised of volunteers eager to run the test.

Yet more parenthetically still, recall how after all the other ties that used to bind the country together have been broken, the one remaining bond is under the greater stress it has ever been under:

Increasingly the only argument in favor of holding the nation together is a mix of complacency and economic expediency.

The international credit system is unwinding. Every municipality, every pension fund, every unemployment program, every state insurance program in the country is financially insolvent. Blocs of states are forming up to deal with the pandemic at a distance from the federal government. Let’s hope they like their partners, because they’re going to be locking arms for longer than most anticipate. The economic seas are going to be a lot rougher than even the epidemiological seas have been.

 
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  1. >liberals want security and order, conservatives want liberty?!

    That’s just messed up, man.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    >liberals want security and order, conservatives want liberty?!

    That’s just messed up, man.
     
    Most conservatives are not conservative. They're liberals who don't like paying taxes. They don't give a damn about society or security or order. They care about money. And tax cuts. In this instance "conservatives" are being consistent with their principles, or rather their lack of principles. Liberty means tax cuts.

    I'm not sure about the "liberals" because modern-day liberals really are a motley coalition. In general I think modern liberals hold the absurdly contradictory view that an individual's right to liberty is so important that it can only be preserved by having lots and lots of laws and regulations. The coalition also includes a lot of special interest groups (such as homosexuals and feminists) who believe that their interests can best be advanced through draconian social controls to provide them with special protections and privileges.
  2. I´m afraid “civil liberties” and “public safety” mean very different things to different people. If I advocate summary execution of quarantine violators and “loitering” diversities but pee on libertarians´heads when it comes to speech and guns does that mean I´m metrosexual?

    K´ung-Tze, the Shakyamuni and Jesus all warned against toying with the meaning of words – and both are dog whistles to a degree that precludes meaningful answers.
    Still, the results are amusing (and unsurprising) 😀

    • Replies: @Elmer's Washable School Glue

    K´ung-Tze, the Shakyamuni and Jesus all warned against toying with the meaning of words – and both are dog whistles to a degree that precludes meaningful answers.
     
    Exactly. It all makes sense once you recognize that "liberty" is nothing but a corollary of "law." The "right to life" is nothing but a law precluding another from killing you. The "right to bear arms" is a law preventing someone else from taking your guns away. The "right to free speech" is a law to protect you from being silenced. The dimmer sort of libertarians think that such laws should only apply against the government, but when the US passes a law to prevent google from purging conservatves, does "liberty" go up or down? Most people here, myself included, would support this, but if you really think "liberty" is freedom from government telling people what to do, then this law is certaintly anti-liberty.

    All actions impact others to some extent; you could really argue your liberty is being taken away to support or oppose anything. Instead of arguing which laws "increase" or "decrease" liberty, it's best to think about what the best outcomes are and who is most qualified to determine them.
  3. Parenthetically, liberals want security and order, conservatives want liberty?! Our political nomenclature is hopeless.

    Well, the term “liberal” has been misused anyway for near a century now anyway, and R hasn’t equaled “conservative” that long too (exception in 1964 with AuH20). I don’t know if that’s what you mean by that, or more like the American people that support the 2 wings of The Party have switched their stances.

    Keep in mind that the main reason the “liberals” supported the US Constitution and their rights thereunder so much 50 years ago is that let them get away with taking over university buildings in the name of free speech and helped them get out of jail for bombing said buildings on technicalities. They most assuredly don’t want free speech now, as it works against their agenda at this point.

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    All forms of liberalism are a joke.

    Long live Christ the King.

    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hPHCT-fOcks/WmeTMHctVkI/AAAAAAAAHjU/S85YPG1NMNwPgRMpWbpeIcqJzWyTj9bDQCLcBGAs/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/cristo-rey-color.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YswQS_ovZ_M

  4. Commenter Rosie should be along aaany minute now to explain that pink bar. Rosie? Rosie pick up the white courtesy smart phone.

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute

    Commenter Rosie should be along aaany minute now to explain that pink bar. Rosie? Rosie pick up the white courtesy smart phone.
     
    Rosie is quite busy these days, having discovered the satisfaction and fulfillment in performing traditional female duties. She’s been sewing face masks, baking cookies, changing diapers (even if her own), scrubbing floors, and delivering Mr Rosie (yeah, this is all BS) ham sandwiches.
    , @Twinkie
    I am having trouble accepting the yellow bar. East Asians are not exactly people who value liberty over public safety.
    , @anon
    Women's preference for security over liberty is established in so many ways, and is another verification of evo-psych. Too be honest, I'm surprised that the bar is that high.

    InB4 Rosie:yes, not all women are like that. Just a large majority.
  5. A.E., thank you very much for pointing out one of the few bright spots* among the disastrous happenings in this Kung Flu Infotainment Panic-Fest. That is, States’ rights are still being observed to a slight degree, and that “experiments in democracy” bit. 3 points, though:

    1) This is still a top-down effort as the Feral Gov’t, with Dr.Fauci as the Korona-Czar. Sure, the governors don’t have to listen, but if they get too far out of line, we’ll see what happens to certain funding sources later (another evil effect of the abominable Amendment XVI – see Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3).

    2) It seems that the State Governors have been trying to one-up each other. “What, N. Carolina has closed the boat ramps? Well, I’m gonna close the beaches AND the boat ramps! That’ll show em who’s the leader here!” (Just yesterday I ran (not literally) into a new bit of Corona-panic-induced fencing around a 1/4 mile running track – Governor’s orders – for what, exactly?)

    3) As a Libertarian I abhor the random DUI traffic stops and that type of Police State BS. However, if Florida wants to set up a roadblock on the Southbound lanes of I-95 to turn away New Yorkers, I think that’s cool as hell. Granted, they should have done that 50 years ago…

    .

    * Another bigger one being the inadvertent test run for wide-scale home-schooling.

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute

    pointing out one of the few bright spots* among the disastrous happenings in this Kung Flu Infotainment Panic-Fest
     
    A blazing bright spot is that the geezers and soccer moms are largely off our roadways at exactly the same time that cops are avoiding traffic enforcement due to coronaphobia.

    Sadly for me, this once in a millennium confluence occurs when I no longer have a sports car and efforts to procure one on loan from a friend have failed as my friends all know me too well.
    , @AaronInMVD
    So, here I still am in Uruguay. Raw dogging life, except for those times I am inside a supermarket because there you need to put the mask on per the supermarket's rules.

    Numbers are starting to come out suggesting we have the lowest R0 in the world for this uncommon cold. We still aren't hitting out capacity for testing, but out of six hundred-ish tests 8 popped up positive yesterday. We still have no mandatory lockdown, but a lot of voluntary compliance with the government's recommendations. Beaches got opened back up now that we are headed into fall. Over the next month it seems we are getting staggered voluntary re-openings into our new, very Asian normal.

    At this point, living in a country where the government is trying to do it's best off of third hand hype and panic... It is hard not to promote the idea the "civilized world" just wanted an excuse to take an authoritarian turn, and that this was a somewhat planned disaster. Nearly all of the guilty are probably just caught up in the hysteria, but they are using it to try to force as much of their wishlist as they can upon their herds.

    The biggest damage to the local economy here is going to be the tourism sector trying to adapt to the new normal, but the locals here in the free world can't do much to fight the rest of the world turning into a factory farm.
  6. Once again the ideological difference between Democrats and Republicans is stark…Democrats are truly the mommy party.

    • Replies: @RVBlake
    Two Mommy party, actually
  7. @Achmed E. Newman
    Commenter Rosie should be along aaany minute now to explain that pink bar. Rosie? Rosie pick up the white courtesy smart phone.

    Commenter Rosie should be along aaany minute now to explain that pink bar. Rosie? Rosie pick up the white courtesy smart phone.

    Rosie is quite busy these days, having discovered the satisfaction and fulfillment in performing traditional female duties. She’s been sewing face masks, baking cookies, changing diapers (even if her own), scrubbing floors, and delivering Mr Rosie (yeah, this is all BS) ham sandwiches.

    • LOL: Achmed E. Newman
  8. @Achmed E. Newman
    A.E., thank you very much for pointing out one of the few bright spots* among the disastrous happenings in this Kung Flu Infotainment Panic-Fest. That is, States' rights are still being observed to a slight degree, and that "experiments in democracy" bit. 3 points, though:

    1) This is still a top-down effort as the Feral Gov't, with Dr.Fauci as the Korona-Czar. Sure, the governors don't have to listen, but if they get too far out of line, we'll see what happens to certain funding sources later (another evil effect of the abominable Amendment XVI - see Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3).

    2) It seems that the State Governors have been trying to one-up each other. "What, N. Carolina has closed the boat ramps? Well, I'm gonna close the beaches AND the boat ramps! That'll show em who's the leader here!" (Just yesterday I ran (not literally) into a new bit of Corona-panic-induced fencing around a 1/4 mile running track - Governor's orders - for what, exactly?)

    3) As a Libertarian I abhor the random DUI traffic stops and that type of Police State BS. However, if Florida wants to set up a roadblock on the Southbound lanes of I-95 to turn away New Yorkers, I think that's cool as hell. Granted, they should have done that 50 years ago...

    .

    * Another bigger one being the inadvertent test run for wide-scale home-schooling.

    pointing out one of the few bright spots* among the disastrous happenings in this Kung Flu Infotainment Panic-Fest

    A blazing bright spot is that the geezers and soccer moms are largely off our roadways at exactly the same time that cops are avoiding traffic enforcement due to coronaphobia.

    Sadly for me, this once in a millennium confluence occurs when I no longer have a sports car and efforts to procure one on loan from a friend have failed as my friends all know me too well.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Roads at 5% capacity. Gas at $1.30. - - ROAD TRIP!

    There's never been a better time in a half a century.
  9. @nokangaroos
    I´m afraid "civil liberties" and "public safety" mean very different things to different people. If I advocate summary execution of quarantine violators and "loitering" diversities but pee on libertarians´heads when it comes to speech and guns does that mean I´m metrosexual?

    K´ung-Tze, the Shakyamuni and Jesus all warned against toying with the meaning of words - and both are dog whistles to a degree that precludes meaningful answers.
    Still, the results are amusing (and unsurprising) :D

    K´ung-Tze, the Shakyamuni and Jesus all warned against toying with the meaning of words – and both are dog whistles to a degree that precludes meaningful answers.

    Exactly. It all makes sense once you recognize that “liberty” is nothing but a corollary of “law.” The “right to life” is nothing but a law precluding another from killing you. The “right to bear arms” is a law preventing someone else from taking your guns away. The “right to free speech” is a law to protect you from being silenced. The dimmer sort of libertarians think that such laws should only apply against the government, but when the US passes a law to prevent google from purging conservatves, does “liberty” go up or down? Most people here, myself included, would support this, but if you really think “liberty” is freedom from government telling people what to do, then this law is certaintly anti-liberty.

    All actions impact others to some extent; you could really argue your liberty is being taken away to support or oppose anything. Instead of arguing which laws “increase” or “decrease” liberty, it’s best to think about what the best outcomes are and who is most qualified to determine them.

    • Replies: @anon

    The dimmer sort of libertarians think that such laws should only apply against the government, but when the US passes a law to prevent google from purging conservatves, does “liberty” go up or down? Most people here, myself included, would support this, but if you really think “liberty” is freedom from government telling people what to do, then this law is certaintly anti-liberty.
     
    The smug, dimmer sort of commentators make straw-man arguments completely removed from reality. Google was given immunity from content liability because it claimed it is a platform, like the phone company, instead of a publisher like a newspaper. By censoring conservative voices, ,google is no longer acting like a platform but instead like a publisher and like every other publisher, it should be held liable for all the content on its sites. If google wants to retain content liability immunity, it needs to act like a platform again and stop censoring conservative voices.
  10. You can always try renting a spare Ryder truck if you are really into that you know?

  11. So how does defending civil liberties square with banning porn?

  12. This is another of those questions that is potentially subject to interpretation. What is a “civil liberty”:

    — The Right to own guns?
    — The liberty of LBGTQXYZ activists to demand special privileges?

    It would be interesting to ask the same question substituting the less ambiguous term “Constutional Rights” for the much more vague “civil liberties”.

    My hunch is that would drive the Republican number well over 50% and the Democrat number even lower.

    PEACE 😷

  13. Most Americans don’t want a shot at liberty if it comes with a chance of death. Between 1775 and 2020, liberty’s stock price crashed through the floor while security’s went to the moon.

    That is very much true. Just think of Franklin’s often quoted statement from 1775 that those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. We really are not the same country that we used to be.

    • Replies: @Brian Reilly
    Mark, We never were that country, in fact, We did believe and acted as though we believed in the myth of that nation. That myth has been destroyed, and we stood by while the demolition went on. We paid for it in our public schols, and elected the people who wrote and enacted policies which destroyed the national ethos, flawed as it may have been.

    Now we cast about, looking (soon desperately) for a new myth worthy of belief.
    , @Toronto Russian

    That is very much true. Just think of Franklin’s often quoted statement from 1775 that those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. We really are not the same country that we used to be.
     
    A smallpox epidemic hit America that very year and showed Franklin was pro-quarantine though.

    Many of the leading figures associated with the American Revolution were also involved in the attempt to stop the disastrous spread of smallpox throughout the American Colonies and beyond. Such individuals included George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin, among others. Prior to the steps made by these parties, public health policies in the colonies were not well established; they were limited to emergency situations. This is to say that policies and programs sprung up around epidemics and quarantines, wherever they were needed in the moment.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1775%E2%80%931782_North_American_smallpox_epidemic
     
  14. Maybe between 1775 and 2020 people grew up. Libertarians certainly haven’t. All authority figures are not your abusive mommy and daddy and like it or not your only real safety is the strength of your community, not hoarding canned goods or firearms or gold eagles.`

    • Replies: @76239
    "community" is an abstraction describing a collection of individual people. You cannot have community without individuals, but you can have individuals without community.

    "All authority figures are not your abusive mommy and daddy " You right, they are a lot worse. Nothing but scoundrels.
  15. @Realist
    Once again the ideological difference between Democrats and Republicans is stark...Democrats are truly the mommy party.

    Two Mommy party, actually

    • LOL: RadicalCenter
  16. @nebulafox
    >liberals want security and order, conservatives want liberty?!

    That's just messed up, man.

    >liberals want security and order, conservatives want liberty?!

    That’s just messed up, man.

    Most conservatives are not conservative. They’re liberals who don’t like paying taxes. They don’t give a damn about society or security or order. They care about money. And tax cuts. In this instance “conservatives” are being consistent with their principles, or rather their lack of principles. Liberty means tax cuts.

    I’m not sure about the “liberals” because modern-day liberals really are a motley coalition. In general I think modern liberals hold the absurdly contradictory view that an individual’s right to liberty is so important that it can only be preserved by having lots and lots of laws and regulations. The coalition also includes a lot of special interest groups (such as homosexuals and feminists) who believe that their interests can best be advanced through draconian social controls to provide them with special protections and privileges.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    >Most conservatives are not conservative. They’re liberals who don’t like paying taxes. They don’t give a damn about society or security or order. They care about money. And tax cuts. In this instance “conservatives” are being consistent with their principles, or rather their lack of principles. Liberty means tax cuts.

    https://twitter.com/zenpundit/status/1253061374655201280

    This is 1990s Russia level stuff here, folks.
  17. I have to call a the above messy for lack of context regarding history. Conservatives press for liberty is the arbitrary tendency pf government and the emotional desires of the individual to the extreme or excess of liberty.

    A conservatives values good order as the means for liberty for most people to the constructive benefit of the individual. As such, conservatives should own the civil rights discussion, because it tends the binding of government excess and the use of government to benefit uniquely one group of over another.

    Unfortunately, the founders set a peculiar response to liberty and in order in that manner as there was nothing orderly about the revolution or the events that led up to it. Tricky hoola hoops to make it an either this or that proposition in light of bot the record or historical context.

    Unfortunately for some citizens, their access to liberty and order required appeals to government intervention — that has warped the meaning as exemplified in the article.

  18. @Achmed E. Newman

    Parenthetically, liberals want security and order, conservatives want liberty?! Our political nomenclature is hopeless.
     
    Well, the term "liberal" has been misused anyway for near a century now anyway, and R hasn't equaled "conservative" that long too (exception in 1964 with AuH20). I don't know if that's what you mean by that, or more like the American people that support the 2 wings of The Party have switched their stances.

    Keep in mind that the main reason the "liberals" supported the US Constitution and their rights thereunder so much 50 years ago is that let them get away with taking over university buildings in the name of free speech and helped them get out of jail for bombing said buildings on technicalities. They most assuredly don't want free speech now, as it works against their agenda at this point.

    All forms of liberalism are a joke.

    Long live Christ the King.

  19. While this news is a little discouraging, it’s not surprising.
    People have been conditioned to be fearful and obedient to “authority”.

    It’s good to hear Georgia is reopening some less essential parts of the economy.
    I can finally get that face tattoo that I couldn’t get last week.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    I can finally get that face tattoo that I couldn’t get last week.
     
    You mean the one with a a bar code on your forehead* for scanning at the grocery store? Dude, that's so 1980's. Oh, c'mon guys, it's so simple, maybe you need a new Book of Revelations. It's all ball bearings and RFID tags nowadays!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTI_S8xETSI

    .


    * See Peak Stupidity with "Chipotle - no credit, no debit, and hold the E. Coli".
  20. I think on a different issue the roles would be reversed and the conservatives would want security. Look at how people talk about release of prisoners and detained immigrants (since prisons and detention camps are great ways to spread the virus). As a libertarian I have no objection (except in the case of prisoners in there for violent crimes). Non-violent prisoners and peaceful immigrants should be free just like all citizens should be free. Conservatives want to be allowed back to their normal lives but want to keep prisoners locked up. Liberals want to free the prisoners but keep everyone else under house arrest. I just want freedom for everyone.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational

    Look at how people talk about release of prisoners and detained immigrants (since prisons and detention camps are great ways to spread the virus).
     
    We should be offering detainees a choice between El Corona or immediate repatriation.  None of this "notice to appear" crap.
  21. @Achmed E. Newman
    A.E., thank you very much for pointing out one of the few bright spots* among the disastrous happenings in this Kung Flu Infotainment Panic-Fest. That is, States' rights are still being observed to a slight degree, and that "experiments in democracy" bit. 3 points, though:

    1) This is still a top-down effort as the Feral Gov't, with Dr.Fauci as the Korona-Czar. Sure, the governors don't have to listen, but if they get too far out of line, we'll see what happens to certain funding sources later (another evil effect of the abominable Amendment XVI - see Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3).

    2) It seems that the State Governors have been trying to one-up each other. "What, N. Carolina has closed the boat ramps? Well, I'm gonna close the beaches AND the boat ramps! That'll show em who's the leader here!" (Just yesterday I ran (not literally) into a new bit of Corona-panic-induced fencing around a 1/4 mile running track - Governor's orders - for what, exactly?)

    3) As a Libertarian I abhor the random DUI traffic stops and that type of Police State BS. However, if Florida wants to set up a roadblock on the Southbound lanes of I-95 to turn away New Yorkers, I think that's cool as hell. Granted, they should have done that 50 years ago...

    .

    * Another bigger one being the inadvertent test run for wide-scale home-schooling.

    So, here I still am in Uruguay. Raw dogging life, except for those times I am inside a supermarket because there you need to put the mask on per the supermarket’s rules.

    Numbers are starting to come out suggesting we have the lowest R0 in the world for this uncommon cold. We still aren’t hitting out capacity for testing, but out of six hundred-ish tests 8 popped up positive yesterday. We still have no mandatory lockdown, but a lot of voluntary compliance with the government’s recommendations. Beaches got opened back up now that we are headed into fall. Over the next month it seems we are getting staggered voluntary re-openings into our new, very Asian normal.

    At this point, living in a country where the government is trying to do it’s best off of third hand hype and panic… It is hard not to promote the idea the “civilized world” just wanted an excuse to take an authoritarian turn, and that this was a somewhat planned disaster. Nearly all of the guilty are probably just caught up in the hysteria, but they are using it to try to force as much of their wishlist as they can upon their herds.

    The biggest damage to the local economy here is going to be the tourism sector trying to adapt to the new normal, but the locals here in the free world can’t do much to fight the rest of the world turning into a factory farm.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Thank you for the on-the-scene report, Aaron. You make it sound like some of the Police State bit will not go away. I hope you will chime in to keep me posted, and I'll keep your blog in its own tab (I have many!) to check on you and your attempt at living in a free world.
  22. @Adam Smith
    While this news is a little discouraging, it's not surprising.
    People have been conditioned to be fearful and obedient to "authority".

    It's good to hear Georgia is reopening some less essential parts of the economy.
    I can finally get that face tattoo that I couldn't get last week.

    I can finally get that face tattoo that I couldn’t get last week.

    You mean the one with a a bar code on your forehead* for scanning at the grocery store? Dude, that’s so 1980’s. Oh, c’mon guys, it’s so simple, maybe you need a new Book of Revelations. It’s all ball bearings and RFID tags nowadays!

    .

    * See Peak Stupidity with “Chipotle – no credit, no debit, and hold the E. Coli”.

    • Replies: @Adam Smith
    I don't want a lame bar code tattoo. I want a really nice face tattoo.

    Maybe something like...

    https://boredbug.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/The-Tax-Man.jpg

    or...

    https://teamjimmyjoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Face-Skull.jpg

    This one is is pretty nice...

    https://thestyleup.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/face_tattoos_07.jpg

    I don't know...
    I'll come up with something.
  23. @Achmed E. Newman

    I can finally get that face tattoo that I couldn’t get last week.
     
    You mean the one with a a bar code on your forehead* for scanning at the grocery store? Dude, that's so 1980's. Oh, c'mon guys, it's so simple, maybe you need a new Book of Revelations. It's all ball bearings and RFID tags nowadays!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTI_S8xETSI

    .


    * See Peak Stupidity with "Chipotle - no credit, no debit, and hold the E. Coli".

    I don’t want a lame bar code tattoo. I want a really nice face tattoo.

    Maybe something like…

    or…

    This one is is pretty nice…

    I don’t know…
    I’ll come up with something.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Man, I really hope those 1st two are watercolors, for the sake of their marriages!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FnTW8O4UtI
  24. anon[210] • Disclaimer says:

    Wait, you mean all those natural conservatives that the US imported from south of the Rio Grande and a lot of the rest of the planet are not participating in the great, national, Vermont town meeting in the same way? They don’t all respect the “rights of Englishmen”?

    How could that be? All humans are interchangeable carbon-units, aren’t we? Koreans and Chinese and Japanese and Javanese and Siberians and Central Europeans and South Americans and South Africans and up-country New Guinea tribesemen – we are all the same. Because reasons.

    Now it’s become clear: muh Melting Pot isn’t working as advertised? Garsh. Who could have predicted that?

    I’ll just leave this here for anyone who wants to read it.
    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2014/03/10/big-summary-post-on-the-hajnal-line/

  25. Even I was not quite prepared for what a nation of mindlessly conformist nitwits we have become. At the grocery store yesterday, virtually everyone was wearing a mask except for me and a rather attractive young hijabi woman (the irony there!), even though masks have not been made mandatory in my state. Me and a few other anti-panic proponents here have been diligently holding the line against the government lockdown, and have been proven correct every step of the way, but it seems the powers that be are bound and determined to have their emergency theater in any case, and the public is overwelmingly in favor of it. I read now that Georgians are protesting against their governor opening up the state too early. Strangely, so is Donald Trump.

    I believe we are now in a special historical position to witness the concretization of the old truism that God punishes the sinner by throwing him into more sin, i.e. by letting him have what he has chosen, good and hard. For so many years in this country we have neglected the Sabbath observence, preferring rather to shop and watch spectacles, to work when we were commanded to rest; and we prefer the convenience of Amazon to the community of our neighbors.

    Now God is reclaiming His lost Sabbaths. The phony Church of the New Order, which never believed in Him and never pleased Him, is taken away, and people couldn’t attend even if they would; but the shopping and sports spectacles and casual dining are also gone, as are the jobs, and people are forced to sit at home and pray for deliverance. They would not work together in obedience and charity; now they will not work at all, their small businesses are crushed, and the evil Amazon will be the last retailer standing, whose hideous leader they will be forced to grovel to if they wish to buy or sell.

    We have neglected to treat the aged and the sick with prudent consideration, with the simple mercies which cost us little except our time, instead erecting confabulous sick-care systems and nursing homes to eat up their wealth and enrich the corporate parasites. Now the old people cannot get a visit from a loved one as they wait to die in their miasmic swamps of infection; and should you have to put a loved one in a hospital, you will not be able to see them while some Third World nurse holds their life in her barely literate hands. We have made a mockery out of marriage and scoffed at praying for the dead; now weddings and funerals are no more. We have aborted and contracepted ourselves to the point of negative population growth, and this was during the times of abundance; now the abortuaries are doing brisk “essential” business, and we wait in horror to see the birth rates in nine months. We were terrified of a common cold virus, therefore the creepy Bill Gates, the self-appointed commissar of world health, has a vaccine he will sell you in 18 months, and an immunology passport he will issue so he can decide when you can leave your house again.

    Too many of us stupidly believed in the democratizing promises of social media, and found out only too late that Facebook will shut you down if you attempt to organize an anti-lockdown protest. That smartphone was so convenient, now it will chirp and alert the authorities if you violate the social distancing rules. It was such a consumer paradise when we outsorced our manufacturing so we could have cheap Chinese crap, but now we can’t even make our own facemasks or pharmaceuticals. In short, all our trust was in this world, in our own hubris and greed and sensuous indulgence, in lies and liars and sloth, in ignoring the cliams of eternity upon our frail temperate existence. As it turns to dust in our hands, can we honestly say we were not warned?

    As an extension, here is a blog post that demonstrates the veracity of another claim made by myself and the anti-panic proponents, viz. that infection by coronavirus is already quite widespread and not dangerous, that lockdowns have been totally ineffective at their ostensible purpose of flattening the curve, that the nebulous concept of “herd immunity” is already a de facto reality, and that therefore all of this was unnecessary. It has to do with the fact that the increasing number of confirmed cases is entirely a function of the increasing number of tests performed and is not indicative of a “spreading epidemic.” The correlation between tests and cases displays a very curious relationship. Can you see what it is?

    “That’s very linear, Sheriff.”
    “Age will flatten a man, Wendell.”

    The Corona Panic of 2020 has been the biggest, lamest, and costliest farce ever perpetrated since the French Revolution, and the free peoples of the Western world have deserved every bit of it. I can only pray that God in His mercy will not punish the innocent along with the guilty, and that He will protect the lives and interests of those who held out as best they could against the long bathos of Clown World ascendancy. At this critical moment when so much seems lost and with more set to follow, we must do well by remembering the old adage that evil doth never prosper. Yes, the man who does the evil may prosper; he may escape punishment in this life and die peacefully in his bed; but the evil plan, the evil intention, the evil idea never goes on to become reality. It is always overcome by the good, which penetrates it from beneath and from beyond. The whole of history is a tapestry of good, a single chord of divine harmony that invites us to resonate with its eternal tones. We regard as heroes those who in every age answered this call. Let it be us, and leave all the consequences to Him who plays the notes.

    • Agree: Hail, Achmed E. Newman
    • LOL: utu
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Me and a few other anti-panic proponents here have been diligently holding the line against the government lockdown, and have been proven correct every step of the way,
     
    You are delusional if you really believed this.

    On top of that, “Me and... have...”? You ramble on about theological orthodoxy and can’t even be bothered to use the correct subject.

    At the grocery store yesterday, virtually everyone was wearing a mask except for me
     
    You are a jackass and a menace to public health.

    “herd immunity” is already a de facto reality, and that therefore all of this was unnecessary
     
    Stop making up nonsense. There might actually be dimwits who believe you and subject themselves and others around them to transmission.

    You sound like another version of that idiot writer on Unz who went on and on about Covid-19 not affecting white people.
    , @anon
    Even I was not quite prepared...

    lol.
    , @Old Palo Altan
    ID, I don't need to tell you to, but I will: ignore the facile attacks of the unreflective.
    But I do have a criticism of my own: no one is innocent, and all will suffer. After all, we die, and death is the punishment for the sin of our first parents. We share in their sin by descent and we will share in their punishment through that same blood tie.

    Where the less guilty will thrive is rarely in this world but certainly in the next: Gates, Soros, the whole crew will, barring a final incursion of God's grace, suffer an eternity of punishment for their active evil, while the compunctious sinner will neverendingly see God face to face, from near or far depending upon his earthly co-operation with God's grace. Our Gracious Lady is at His very hand, while the last to be admitted is something just under an infinity away, but still fulfilled according to God's measure.

    "Be of good cheer; I have overcome the world".

    That means you, Bezoz.
    , @Truth
    I can't believe I am actually agreeing with Telly-Dase here.
    , @MBlanc46
    I can’t say that I agree with every word of that, but it sure is some nice writing.
    , @Jay Fink
    I was talking about this virus and how concerned I was about it back in January and February. The irony is the same people who poked fun at me for thinking about it back then are now scared as hell, much more than I am. They constantly have their masks on while I don't wear one.
  26. @Intelligent Dasein
    Even I was not quite prepared for what a nation of mindlessly conformist nitwits we have become. At the grocery store yesterday, virtually everyone was wearing a mask except for me and a rather attractive young hijabi woman (the irony there!), even though masks have not been made mandatory in my state. Me and a few other anti-panic proponents here have been diligently holding the line against the government lockdown, and have been proven correct every step of the way, but it seems the powers that be are bound and determined to have their emergency theater in any case, and the public is overwelmingly in favor of it. I read now that Georgians are protesting against their governor opening up the state too early. Strangely, so is Donald Trump.

    I believe we are now in a special historical position to witness the concretization of the old truism that God punishes the sinner by throwing him into more sin, i.e. by letting him have what he has chosen, good and hard. For so many years in this country we have neglected the Sabbath observence, preferring rather to shop and watch spectacles, to work when we were commanded to rest; and we prefer the convenience of Amazon to the community of our neighbors.

    Now God is reclaiming His lost Sabbaths. The phony Church of the New Order, which never believed in Him and never pleased Him, is taken away, and people couldn't attend even if they would; but the shopping and sports spectacles and casual dining are also gone, as are the jobs, and people are forced to sit at home and pray for deliverance. They would not work together in obedience and charity; now they will not work at all, their small businesses are crushed, and the evil Amazon will be the last retailer standing, whose hideous leader they will be forced to grovel to if they wish to buy or sell.

    We have neglected to treat the aged and the sick with prudent consideration, with the simple mercies which cost us little except our time, instead erecting confabulous sick-care systems and nursing homes to eat up their wealth and enrich the corporate parasites. Now the old people cannot get a visit from a loved one as they wait to die in their miasmic swamps of infection; and should you have to put a loved one in a hospital, you will not be able to see them while some Third World nurse holds their life in her barely literate hands. We have made a mockery out of marriage and scoffed at praying for the dead; now weddings and funerals are no more. We have aborted and contracepted ourselves to the point of negative population growth, and this was during the times of abundance; now the abortuaries are doing brisk "essential" business, and we wait in horror to see the birth rates in nine months. We were terrified of a common cold virus, therefore the creepy Bill Gates, the self-appointed commissar of world health, has a vaccine he will sell you in 18 months, and an immunology passport he will issue so he can decide when you can leave your house again.

    Too many of us stupidly believed in the democratizing promises of social media, and found out only too late that Facebook will shut you down if you attempt to organize an anti-lockdown protest. That smartphone was so convenient, now it will chirp and alert the authorities if you violate the social distancing rules. It was such a consumer paradise when we outsorced our manufacturing so we could have cheap Chinese crap, but now we can't even make our own facemasks or pharmaceuticals. In short, all our trust was in this world, in our own hubris and greed and sensuous indulgence, in lies and liars and sloth, in ignoring the cliams of eternity upon our frail temperate existence. As it turns to dust in our hands, can we honestly say we were not warned?

    As an extension, here is a blog post that demonstrates the veracity of another claim made by myself and the anti-panic proponents, viz. that infection by coronavirus is already quite widespread and not dangerous, that lockdowns have been totally ineffective at their ostensible purpose of flattening the curve, that the nebulous concept of "herd immunity" is already a de facto reality, and that therefore all of this was unnecessary. It has to do with the fact that the increasing number of confirmed cases is entirely a function of the increasing number of tests performed and is not indicative of a "spreading epidemic." The correlation between tests and cases displays a very curious relationship. Can you see what it is?

    https://i2.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/cases-vs-tests-usa.png?w=677&ssl=1

    "That's very linear, Sheriff."
    "Age will flatten a man, Wendell."


    The Corona Panic of 2020 has been the biggest, lamest, and costliest farce ever perpetrated since the French Revolution, and the free peoples of the Western world have deserved every bit of it. I can only pray that God in His mercy will not punish the innocent along with the guilty, and that He will protect the lives and interests of those who held out as best they could against the long bathos of Clown World ascendancy. At this critical moment when so much seems lost and with more set to follow, we must do well by remembering the old adage that evil doth never prosper. Yes, the man who does the evil may prosper; he may escape punishment in this life and die peacefully in his bed; but the evil plan, the evil intention, the evil idea never goes on to become reality. It is always overcome by the good, which penetrates it from beneath and from beyond. The whole of history is a tapestry of good, a single chord of divine harmony that invites us to resonate with its eternal tones. We regard as heroes those who in every age answered this call. Let it be us, and leave all the consequences to Him who plays the notes.

    Me and a few other anti-panic proponents here have been diligently holding the line against the government lockdown, and have been proven correct every step of the way,

    You are delusional if you really believed this.

    On top of that, “Me and… have…”? You ramble on about theological orthodoxy and can’t even be bothered to use the correct subject.

    At the grocery store yesterday, virtually everyone was wearing a mask except for me

    You are a jackass and a menace to public health.

    “herd immunity” is already a de facto reality, and that therefore all of this was unnecessary

    Stop making up nonsense. There might actually be dimwits who believe you and subject themselves and others around them to transmission.

    You sound like another version of that idiot writer on Unz who went on and on about Covid-19 not affecting white people.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Troll: anarchyst
  27. @Achmed E. Newman
    Commenter Rosie should be along aaany minute now to explain that pink bar. Rosie? Rosie pick up the white courtesy smart phone.

    I am having trouble accepting the yellow bar. East Asians are not exactly people who value liberty over public safety.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  28. @Observator
    Maybe between 1775 and 2020 people grew up. Libertarians certainly haven't. All authority figures are not your abusive mommy and daddy and like it or not your only real safety is the strength of your community, not hoarding canned goods or firearms or gold eagles.`

    “community” is an abstraction describing a collection of individual people. You cannot have community without individuals, but you can have individuals without community.

    “All authority figures are not your abusive mommy and daddy ” You right, they are a lot worse. Nothing but scoundrels.

    • Agree: MBlanc46
  29. It’s curious how Sweden’s response seems to contrast with the response that I would presuppose from typical Swedes on an individual level, who I think would be like Über-Democrats and lean to a perception of public safety.

    I wonder if I have pegged them wrong? Or is it oligarchy that is causing the Swedish response, and Swedes are rallying behind the state, after the fact, as is their wont?

    • Replies: @128
    Maybe it's this?
    https://tradingeconomics.com/sweden/private-debt-to-gdp
    Private Debt to GDP in Sweden increased to 279.70 percent in 2018 from 274.50 percent in 2017.
  30. @Intelligent Dasein
    Even I was not quite prepared for what a nation of mindlessly conformist nitwits we have become. At the grocery store yesterday, virtually everyone was wearing a mask except for me and a rather attractive young hijabi woman (the irony there!), even though masks have not been made mandatory in my state. Me and a few other anti-panic proponents here have been diligently holding the line against the government lockdown, and have been proven correct every step of the way, but it seems the powers that be are bound and determined to have their emergency theater in any case, and the public is overwelmingly in favor of it. I read now that Georgians are protesting against their governor opening up the state too early. Strangely, so is Donald Trump.

    I believe we are now in a special historical position to witness the concretization of the old truism that God punishes the sinner by throwing him into more sin, i.e. by letting him have what he has chosen, good and hard. For so many years in this country we have neglected the Sabbath observence, preferring rather to shop and watch spectacles, to work when we were commanded to rest; and we prefer the convenience of Amazon to the community of our neighbors.

    Now God is reclaiming His lost Sabbaths. The phony Church of the New Order, which never believed in Him and never pleased Him, is taken away, and people couldn't attend even if they would; but the shopping and sports spectacles and casual dining are also gone, as are the jobs, and people are forced to sit at home and pray for deliverance. They would not work together in obedience and charity; now they will not work at all, their small businesses are crushed, and the evil Amazon will be the last retailer standing, whose hideous leader they will be forced to grovel to if they wish to buy or sell.

    We have neglected to treat the aged and the sick with prudent consideration, with the simple mercies which cost us little except our time, instead erecting confabulous sick-care systems and nursing homes to eat up their wealth and enrich the corporate parasites. Now the old people cannot get a visit from a loved one as they wait to die in their miasmic swamps of infection; and should you have to put a loved one in a hospital, you will not be able to see them while some Third World nurse holds their life in her barely literate hands. We have made a mockery out of marriage and scoffed at praying for the dead; now weddings and funerals are no more. We have aborted and contracepted ourselves to the point of negative population growth, and this was during the times of abundance; now the abortuaries are doing brisk "essential" business, and we wait in horror to see the birth rates in nine months. We were terrified of a common cold virus, therefore the creepy Bill Gates, the self-appointed commissar of world health, has a vaccine he will sell you in 18 months, and an immunology passport he will issue so he can decide when you can leave your house again.

    Too many of us stupidly believed in the democratizing promises of social media, and found out only too late that Facebook will shut you down if you attempt to organize an anti-lockdown protest. That smartphone was so convenient, now it will chirp and alert the authorities if you violate the social distancing rules. It was such a consumer paradise when we outsorced our manufacturing so we could have cheap Chinese crap, but now we can't even make our own facemasks or pharmaceuticals. In short, all our trust was in this world, in our own hubris and greed and sensuous indulgence, in lies and liars and sloth, in ignoring the cliams of eternity upon our frail temperate existence. As it turns to dust in our hands, can we honestly say we were not warned?

    As an extension, here is a blog post that demonstrates the veracity of another claim made by myself and the anti-panic proponents, viz. that infection by coronavirus is already quite widespread and not dangerous, that lockdowns have been totally ineffective at their ostensible purpose of flattening the curve, that the nebulous concept of "herd immunity" is already a de facto reality, and that therefore all of this was unnecessary. It has to do with the fact that the increasing number of confirmed cases is entirely a function of the increasing number of tests performed and is not indicative of a "spreading epidemic." The correlation between tests and cases displays a very curious relationship. Can you see what it is?

    https://i2.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/cases-vs-tests-usa.png?w=677&ssl=1

    "That's very linear, Sheriff."
    "Age will flatten a man, Wendell."


    The Corona Panic of 2020 has been the biggest, lamest, and costliest farce ever perpetrated since the French Revolution, and the free peoples of the Western world have deserved every bit of it. I can only pray that God in His mercy will not punish the innocent along with the guilty, and that He will protect the lives and interests of those who held out as best they could against the long bathos of Clown World ascendancy. At this critical moment when so much seems lost and with more set to follow, we must do well by remembering the old adage that evil doth never prosper. Yes, the man who does the evil may prosper; he may escape punishment in this life and die peacefully in his bed; but the evil plan, the evil intention, the evil idea never goes on to become reality. It is always overcome by the good, which penetrates it from beneath and from beyond. The whole of history is a tapestry of good, a single chord of divine harmony that invites us to resonate with its eternal tones. We regard as heroes those who in every age answered this call. Let it be us, and leave all the consequences to Him who plays the notes.

    Even I was not quite prepared…

    lol.

  31. Parenthetically, liberals want security and order, conservatives want liberty?

    I just want the liberty to enforce security and order on my own terms on my own land.

    • Replies: @anon
    Hey, hey! Dude! Dial back on the anti-Semitism!
  32. @Intelligent Dasein
    Even I was not quite prepared for what a nation of mindlessly conformist nitwits we have become. At the grocery store yesterday, virtually everyone was wearing a mask except for me and a rather attractive young hijabi woman (the irony there!), even though masks have not been made mandatory in my state. Me and a few other anti-panic proponents here have been diligently holding the line against the government lockdown, and have been proven correct every step of the way, but it seems the powers that be are bound and determined to have their emergency theater in any case, and the public is overwelmingly in favor of it. I read now that Georgians are protesting against their governor opening up the state too early. Strangely, so is Donald Trump.

    I believe we are now in a special historical position to witness the concretization of the old truism that God punishes the sinner by throwing him into more sin, i.e. by letting him have what he has chosen, good and hard. For so many years in this country we have neglected the Sabbath observence, preferring rather to shop and watch spectacles, to work when we were commanded to rest; and we prefer the convenience of Amazon to the community of our neighbors.

    Now God is reclaiming His lost Sabbaths. The phony Church of the New Order, which never believed in Him and never pleased Him, is taken away, and people couldn't attend even if they would; but the shopping and sports spectacles and casual dining are also gone, as are the jobs, and people are forced to sit at home and pray for deliverance. They would not work together in obedience and charity; now they will not work at all, their small businesses are crushed, and the evil Amazon will be the last retailer standing, whose hideous leader they will be forced to grovel to if they wish to buy or sell.

    We have neglected to treat the aged and the sick with prudent consideration, with the simple mercies which cost us little except our time, instead erecting confabulous sick-care systems and nursing homes to eat up their wealth and enrich the corporate parasites. Now the old people cannot get a visit from a loved one as they wait to die in their miasmic swamps of infection; and should you have to put a loved one in a hospital, you will not be able to see them while some Third World nurse holds their life in her barely literate hands. We have made a mockery out of marriage and scoffed at praying for the dead; now weddings and funerals are no more. We have aborted and contracepted ourselves to the point of negative population growth, and this was during the times of abundance; now the abortuaries are doing brisk "essential" business, and we wait in horror to see the birth rates in nine months. We were terrified of a common cold virus, therefore the creepy Bill Gates, the self-appointed commissar of world health, has a vaccine he will sell you in 18 months, and an immunology passport he will issue so he can decide when you can leave your house again.

    Too many of us stupidly believed in the democratizing promises of social media, and found out only too late that Facebook will shut you down if you attempt to organize an anti-lockdown protest. That smartphone was so convenient, now it will chirp and alert the authorities if you violate the social distancing rules. It was such a consumer paradise when we outsorced our manufacturing so we could have cheap Chinese crap, but now we can't even make our own facemasks or pharmaceuticals. In short, all our trust was in this world, in our own hubris and greed and sensuous indulgence, in lies and liars and sloth, in ignoring the cliams of eternity upon our frail temperate existence. As it turns to dust in our hands, can we honestly say we were not warned?

    As an extension, here is a blog post that demonstrates the veracity of another claim made by myself and the anti-panic proponents, viz. that infection by coronavirus is already quite widespread and not dangerous, that lockdowns have been totally ineffective at their ostensible purpose of flattening the curve, that the nebulous concept of "herd immunity" is already a de facto reality, and that therefore all of this was unnecessary. It has to do with the fact that the increasing number of confirmed cases is entirely a function of the increasing number of tests performed and is not indicative of a "spreading epidemic." The correlation between tests and cases displays a very curious relationship. Can you see what it is?

    https://i2.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/cases-vs-tests-usa.png?w=677&ssl=1

    "That's very linear, Sheriff."
    "Age will flatten a man, Wendell."


    The Corona Panic of 2020 has been the biggest, lamest, and costliest farce ever perpetrated since the French Revolution, and the free peoples of the Western world have deserved every bit of it. I can only pray that God in His mercy will not punish the innocent along with the guilty, and that He will protect the lives and interests of those who held out as best they could against the long bathos of Clown World ascendancy. At this critical moment when so much seems lost and with more set to follow, we must do well by remembering the old adage that evil doth never prosper. Yes, the man who does the evil may prosper; he may escape punishment in this life and die peacefully in his bed; but the evil plan, the evil intention, the evil idea never goes on to become reality. It is always overcome by the good, which penetrates it from beneath and from beyond. The whole of history is a tapestry of good, a single chord of divine harmony that invites us to resonate with its eternal tones. We regard as heroes those who in every age answered this call. Let it be us, and leave all the consequences to Him who plays the notes.

    ID, I don’t need to tell you to, but I will: ignore the facile attacks of the unreflective.
    But I do have a criticism of my own: no one is innocent, and all will suffer. After all, we die, and death is the punishment for the sin of our first parents. We share in their sin by descent and we will share in their punishment through that same blood tie.

    Where the less guilty will thrive is rarely in this world but certainly in the next: Gates, Soros, the whole crew will, barring a final incursion of God’s grace, suffer an eternity of punishment for their active evil, while the compunctious sinner will neverendingly see God face to face, from near or far depending upon his earthly co-operation with God’s grace. Our Gracious Lady is at His very hand, while the last to be admitted is something just under an infinity away, but still fulfilled according to God’s measure.

    “Be of good cheer; I have overcome the world”.

    That means you, Bezoz.

    • Thanks: Intelligent Dasein
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    ignore the facile attacks of the unreflective.
     
    Don’t be a dimwitted fellow-traveler. Several thoughtful people have pointed out numerous problems with his arguments about the pandemic, and his response was to simply ignore data and facts contrary to his assertions with a hand wave, at one point simply claiming that the data did not comport with his own common sense.

    Most people here - like people anywhere - suffer from confirmation bias. Once they make up their minds, they don’t want to be “confused” by contrary facts, and bandwagon with people like Intelligent Dasein who simply double- and triple-down.

    People tend to confuse assertiveness of the person making an argument with soundness of the argument.

    , @anon
    ID, I don’t need to tell you to, but I will: ignore the facile attacks of the unreflective.

    He's a big, all-grown-up boy quite capable of ignoring reason, elementary logic and facts on his own, in an emotionally incontinent fashion. Your cheerleading is redundant.

  33. @jtgw
    I think on a different issue the roles would be reversed and the conservatives would want security. Look at how people talk about release of prisoners and detained immigrants (since prisons and detention camps are great ways to spread the virus). As a libertarian I have no objection (except in the case of prisoners in there for violent crimes). Non-violent prisoners and peaceful immigrants should be free just like all citizens should be free. Conservatives want to be allowed back to their normal lives but want to keep prisoners locked up. Liberals want to free the prisoners but keep everyone else under house arrest. I just want freedom for everyone.

    Look at how people talk about release of prisoners and detained immigrants (since prisons and detention camps are great ways to spread the virus).

    We should be offering detainees a choice between El Corona or immediate repatriation.  None of this “notice to appear” crap.

  34. @Old Palo Altan
    ID, I don't need to tell you to, but I will: ignore the facile attacks of the unreflective.
    But I do have a criticism of my own: no one is innocent, and all will suffer. After all, we die, and death is the punishment for the sin of our first parents. We share in their sin by descent and we will share in their punishment through that same blood tie.

    Where the less guilty will thrive is rarely in this world but certainly in the next: Gates, Soros, the whole crew will, barring a final incursion of God's grace, suffer an eternity of punishment for their active evil, while the compunctious sinner will neverendingly see God face to face, from near or far depending upon his earthly co-operation with God's grace. Our Gracious Lady is at His very hand, while the last to be admitted is something just under an infinity away, but still fulfilled according to God's measure.

    "Be of good cheer; I have overcome the world".

    That means you, Bezoz.

    ignore the facile attacks of the unreflective.

    Don’t be a dimwitted fellow-traveler. Several thoughtful people have pointed out numerous problems with his arguments about the pandemic, and his response was to simply ignore data and facts contrary to his assertions with a hand wave, at one point simply claiming that the data did not comport with his own common sense.

    Most people here – like people anywhere – suffer from confirmation bias. Once they make up their minds, they don’t want to be “confused” by contrary facts, and bandwagon with people like Intelligent Dasein who simply double- and triple-down.

    People tend to confuse assertiveness of the person making an argument with soundness of the argument.

  35. @The Alarmist

    Parenthetically, liberals want security and order, conservatives want liberty?
     
    I just want the liberty to enforce security and order on my own terms on my own land.


    https://images5.alphacoders.com/432/thumb-350-432894.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8P1AkixEj0

    Hey, hey! Dude! Dial back on the anti-Semitism!

  36. @Old Palo Altan
    ID, I don't need to tell you to, but I will: ignore the facile attacks of the unreflective.
    But I do have a criticism of my own: no one is innocent, and all will suffer. After all, we die, and death is the punishment for the sin of our first parents. We share in their sin by descent and we will share in their punishment through that same blood tie.

    Where the less guilty will thrive is rarely in this world but certainly in the next: Gates, Soros, the whole crew will, barring a final incursion of God's grace, suffer an eternity of punishment for their active evil, while the compunctious sinner will neverendingly see God face to face, from near or far depending upon his earthly co-operation with God's grace. Our Gracious Lady is at His very hand, while the last to be admitted is something just under an infinity away, but still fulfilled according to God's measure.

    "Be of good cheer; I have overcome the world".

    That means you, Bezoz.

    ID, I don’t need to tell you to, but I will: ignore the facile attacks of the unreflective.

    He’s a big, all-grown-up boy quite capable of ignoring reason, elementary logic and facts on his own, in an emotionally incontinent fashion. Your cheerleading is redundant.

  37. This ought to just about settle the matter. The latest preliminary reports suggest that 21% of New York City dwellers are seropositive for coronavirus antibodies. That alone brings the IFR down to about 0.5%.

    However, as I’ve been saying and as others are starting to pick up on, a seropositive result is a proxy only for specific immunity. But there is also non-specific immunity, i.e. the people who were exposed to the virus but whose immune systems simply destroy it without needing to develop an antibody response. These people are not counted by antibody tests but they must comprise some additive component.

    For reasons I have not yet expounded fully upon, I believe that non-specific immunity is about one Pareto (that is, one 80/20 proportion) greater than specific immunity. This forms the basis of my oft repeated statement that “the herd is already immune.” Most people have already been exposed to this virus and they are immune not in the sense that they’ve developed antibodies but in the sense they will neither get sick nor develop antibodies upon any subsequent exposure. Their innate immune system will handle corona just fine.

    Putting this all together, it means that the virus is not very dangerous and that the lockdowns did very little good. It’s time to stop arguing over the epidemiology. These facts now need to be addressed in the domain of policy and accountability.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    This ought to just about settle the matter. The latest preliminary reports suggest that 21% of New York City dwellers are seropositive for coronavirus antibodies. That alone brings the IFR down to about 0.5%.
     
    You are intellectually dishonest. The full quote:

    In New York City, 21 percent of people had antibodies for coronavirus, compared to 3.6 percent in upstate New York, 16.7 percent in Long Island and 11.7 percent in the Westchester/Rockland area.
     
    If this is your definition of “herd immunity,” you don’t know what that means.

    Over 10,000 people died in NYC in a span of a few weeks, a fatality rate of 120 per 100,000 people in as many weeks. NYC hospitals ICUs were like war zones. All that suffering and only 20% of the population were infected.

    However, as I’ve been saying and as others are starting to pick up on, a seropositive result is a proxy only for specific immunity. But there is also non-specific immunity, i.e. the people who were exposed to the virus but whose immune systems simply destroy it without needing to develop an antibody response. These people are not counted by antibody tests but they must comprise some additive component.
     
    Stop making things up. Here is a good summary of non-specific vs. specific immunity. Non-specific immunity is not what you think it is: https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-specific-and-vs-nonspecific-immunity/

    Most people have already been exposed to this virus and they are immune not in the sense that they’ve developed antibodies but in the sense they will neither get sick nor develop antibodies upon any subsequent exposure. Their innate immune system will handle corona just fine.
     
    From the same link: “ Most importantly, non-specific immunity does not form a defensive memory while specific immunity does.”
  38. @Intelligent Dasein
    Even I was not quite prepared for what a nation of mindlessly conformist nitwits we have become. At the grocery store yesterday, virtually everyone was wearing a mask except for me and a rather attractive young hijabi woman (the irony there!), even though masks have not been made mandatory in my state. Me and a few other anti-panic proponents here have been diligently holding the line against the government lockdown, and have been proven correct every step of the way, but it seems the powers that be are bound and determined to have their emergency theater in any case, and the public is overwelmingly in favor of it. I read now that Georgians are protesting against their governor opening up the state too early. Strangely, so is Donald Trump.

    I believe we are now in a special historical position to witness the concretization of the old truism that God punishes the sinner by throwing him into more sin, i.e. by letting him have what he has chosen, good and hard. For so many years in this country we have neglected the Sabbath observence, preferring rather to shop and watch spectacles, to work when we were commanded to rest; and we prefer the convenience of Amazon to the community of our neighbors.

    Now God is reclaiming His lost Sabbaths. The phony Church of the New Order, which never believed in Him and never pleased Him, is taken away, and people couldn't attend even if they would; but the shopping and sports spectacles and casual dining are also gone, as are the jobs, and people are forced to sit at home and pray for deliverance. They would not work together in obedience and charity; now they will not work at all, their small businesses are crushed, and the evil Amazon will be the last retailer standing, whose hideous leader they will be forced to grovel to if they wish to buy or sell.

    We have neglected to treat the aged and the sick with prudent consideration, with the simple mercies which cost us little except our time, instead erecting confabulous sick-care systems and nursing homes to eat up their wealth and enrich the corporate parasites. Now the old people cannot get a visit from a loved one as they wait to die in their miasmic swamps of infection; and should you have to put a loved one in a hospital, you will not be able to see them while some Third World nurse holds their life in her barely literate hands. We have made a mockery out of marriage and scoffed at praying for the dead; now weddings and funerals are no more. We have aborted and contracepted ourselves to the point of negative population growth, and this was during the times of abundance; now the abortuaries are doing brisk "essential" business, and we wait in horror to see the birth rates in nine months. We were terrified of a common cold virus, therefore the creepy Bill Gates, the self-appointed commissar of world health, has a vaccine he will sell you in 18 months, and an immunology passport he will issue so he can decide when you can leave your house again.

    Too many of us stupidly believed in the democratizing promises of social media, and found out only too late that Facebook will shut you down if you attempt to organize an anti-lockdown protest. That smartphone was so convenient, now it will chirp and alert the authorities if you violate the social distancing rules. It was such a consumer paradise when we outsorced our manufacturing so we could have cheap Chinese crap, but now we can't even make our own facemasks or pharmaceuticals. In short, all our trust was in this world, in our own hubris and greed and sensuous indulgence, in lies and liars and sloth, in ignoring the cliams of eternity upon our frail temperate existence. As it turns to dust in our hands, can we honestly say we were not warned?

    As an extension, here is a blog post that demonstrates the veracity of another claim made by myself and the anti-panic proponents, viz. that infection by coronavirus is already quite widespread and not dangerous, that lockdowns have been totally ineffective at their ostensible purpose of flattening the curve, that the nebulous concept of "herd immunity" is already a de facto reality, and that therefore all of this was unnecessary. It has to do with the fact that the increasing number of confirmed cases is entirely a function of the increasing number of tests performed and is not indicative of a "spreading epidemic." The correlation between tests and cases displays a very curious relationship. Can you see what it is?

    https://i2.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/cases-vs-tests-usa.png?w=677&ssl=1

    "That's very linear, Sheriff."
    "Age will flatten a man, Wendell."


    The Corona Panic of 2020 has been the biggest, lamest, and costliest farce ever perpetrated since the French Revolution, and the free peoples of the Western world have deserved every bit of it. I can only pray that God in His mercy will not punish the innocent along with the guilty, and that He will protect the lives and interests of those who held out as best they could against the long bathos of Clown World ascendancy. At this critical moment when so much seems lost and with more set to follow, we must do well by remembering the old adage that evil doth never prosper. Yes, the man who does the evil may prosper; he may escape punishment in this life and die peacefully in his bed; but the evil plan, the evil intention, the evil idea never goes on to become reality. It is always overcome by the good, which penetrates it from beneath and from beyond. The whole of history is a tapestry of good, a single chord of divine harmony that invites us to resonate with its eternal tones. We regard as heroes those who in every age answered this call. Let it be us, and leave all the consequences to Him who plays the notes.

    I can’t believe I am actually agreeing with Telly-Dase here.

    • Replies: @res
    The Covid-19 craziness has been full of strange new respect (and antipathy) between various commenters and bloggers. One of the more interesting outcomes of it in the Unz Review comments sections. It has completely upended the usual fault lines for differences here.
  39. @Achmed E. Newman
    Commenter Rosie should be along aaany minute now to explain that pink bar. Rosie? Rosie pick up the white courtesy smart phone.

    Women’s preference for security over liberty is established in so many ways, and is another verification of evo-psych. Too be honest, I’m surprised that the bar is that high.

    InB4 Rosie:yes, not all women are like that. Just a large majority.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    "Oh yeah, but a majority of white women voted for Trump!" Hey, I believe her, but Trump is no man of principle. That's not why I voted for him. We haven't had a man of principle in that office since Ronnie, or arguably, Calvin Coolidge. (Actually, Jimmy was one to a great degree, but I just agree with many of his principles.)
  40. Every municipality, every pension fund, every unemployment program, every state insurance program in the country is financially insolvent.

    A conspiracist might believe that the shutdown is all about forcing a reckoning on pensions.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Never let a crisis go to waste, right?
  41. @Mark G.

    Most Americans don’t want a shot at liberty if it comes with a chance of death. Between 1775 and 2020, liberty’s stock price crashed through the floor while security’s went to the moon.

     

    That is very much true. Just think of Franklin's often quoted statement from 1775 that those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. We really are not the same country that we used to be.

    Mark, We never were that country, in fact, We did believe and acted as though we believed in the myth of that nation. That myth has been destroyed, and we stood by while the demolition went on. We paid for it in our public schols, and elected the people who wrote and enacted policies which destroyed the national ethos, flawed as it may have been.

    Now we cast about, looking (soon desperately) for a new myth worthy of belief.

  42. @Intelligent Dasein
    This ought to just about settle the matter. The latest preliminary reports suggest that 21% of New York City dwellers are seropositive for coronavirus antibodies. That alone brings the IFR down to about 0.5%.

    However, as I've been saying and as others are starting to pick up on, a seropositive result is a proxy only for specific immunity. But there is also non-specific immunity, i.e. the people who were exposed to the virus but whose immune systems simply destroy it without needing to develop an antibody response. These people are not counted by antibody tests but they must comprise some additive component.

    For reasons I have not yet expounded fully upon, I believe that non-specific immunity is about one Pareto (that is, one 80/20 proportion) greater than specific immunity. This forms the basis of my oft repeated statement that "the herd is already immune." Most people have already been exposed to this virus and they are immune not in the sense that they've developed antibodies but in the sense they will neither get sick nor develop antibodies upon any subsequent exposure. Their innate immune system will handle corona just fine.

    Putting this all together, it means that the virus is not very dangerous and that the lockdowns did very little good. It's time to stop arguing over the epidemiology. These facts now need to be addressed in the domain of policy and accountability.

    This ought to just about settle the matter. The latest preliminary reports suggest that 21% of New York City dwellers are seropositive for coronavirus antibodies. That alone brings the IFR down to about 0.5%.

    You are intellectually dishonest. The full quote:

    In New York City, 21 percent of people had antibodies for coronavirus, compared to 3.6 percent in upstate New York, 16.7 percent in Long Island and 11.7 percent in the Westchester/Rockland area.

    If this is your definition of “herd immunity,” you don’t know what that means.

    Over 10,000 people died in NYC in a span of a few weeks, a fatality rate of 120 per 100,000 people in as many weeks. NYC hospitals ICUs were like war zones. All that suffering and only 20% of the population were infected.

    However, as I’ve been saying and as others are starting to pick up on, a seropositive result is a proxy only for specific immunity. But there is also non-specific immunity, i.e. the people who were exposed to the virus but whose immune systems simply destroy it without needing to develop an antibody response. These people are not counted by antibody tests but they must comprise some additive component.

    Stop making things up. Here is a good summary of non-specific vs. specific immunity. Non-specific immunity is not what you think it is: https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-specific-and-vs-nonspecific-immunity/

    Most people have already been exposed to this virus and they are immune not in the sense that they’ve developed antibodies but in the sense they will neither get sick nor develop antibodies upon any subsequent exposure. Their innate immune system will handle corona just fine.

    From the same link: “ Most importantly, non-specific immunity does not form a defensive memory while specific immunity does.”

    • Disagree: Hippopotamusdrome
    • Replies: @Brás Cubas
    Intelligent Dasein's explanation seems to be in agreement with the text you cited. Could you elaborate on your objections? I am not a partisan in this matter.

    From the same link: “ Most importantly, non-specific immunity does not form a defensive memory while specific immunity does.”
     
    Sure, but an organism who beat the virus once has great odds of beating it again. It's the same organism after all, bar some serious health deterioration in the meantime. Of course, there are factors like the weather, etc. which could change those odds for the worse. And of course you don't want to be stuck with permanent side-effects from your infections.
    , @Lowe
    I have no idea what non-specifuc immunity is. You must admit though, whether the infection rate is 3.6% or 21%, that is a huge number of infected.

    It is looking more and more that the CFR of this disease is nothing close to the insane figure of 5-6% that was originally paraded by the press.

    Especially considering that, in addition undercounting the infected, we are almost certainly overcounting the victims. This just isn't the disaster that was advertised.

    In a few weeks the same public servants who are urging continued caution in reopening (as a form of personal ass covering) are going to be begging businesses to reopen at all. Begging.

    Right now, with the numbers I see, this looks like one of the worst series of public policy decisions ever. We have 23% unemployment, and there are invisible costs as well. Consider the regime uncertainty about starting a business, moving forward.
  43. @Truth
    I can't believe I am actually agreeing with Telly-Dase here.

    The Covid-19 craziness has been full of strange new respect (and antipathy) between various commenters and bloggers. One of the more interesting outcomes of it in the Unz Review comments sections. It has completely upended the usual fault lines for differences here.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    I don’t think that’s quite true. It seems to me that the “new division” Covid-19 fault lines have been with us all along and are still more-or-less that of believers of conspiracies and Inner Party (and Jew-obsessed) on the one hand and more empirical types on the other. Or put another way, people who perceive themselves to be persecuted or ignored geniuses (“I’m always right, but I don’t have the power, influence, attention of others, etc. I should!”) vs. sober people who carefully weigh their views and modify them as evidence dictates.
  44. @dfordoom

    >liberals want security and order, conservatives want liberty?!

    That’s just messed up, man.
     
    Most conservatives are not conservative. They're liberals who don't like paying taxes. They don't give a damn about society or security or order. They care about money. And tax cuts. In this instance "conservatives" are being consistent with their principles, or rather their lack of principles. Liberty means tax cuts.

    I'm not sure about the "liberals" because modern-day liberals really are a motley coalition. In general I think modern liberals hold the absurdly contradictory view that an individual's right to liberty is so important that it can only be preserved by having lots and lots of laws and regulations. The coalition also includes a lot of special interest groups (such as homosexuals and feminists) who believe that their interests can best be advanced through draconian social controls to provide them with special protections and privileges.

    >Most conservatives are not conservative. They’re liberals who don’t like paying taxes. They don’t give a damn about society or security or order. They care about money. And tax cuts. In this instance “conservatives” are being consistent with their principles, or rather their lack of principles. Liberty means tax cuts.

    This is 1990s Russia level stuff here, folks.

  45. @Adam Smith
    I don't want a lame bar code tattoo. I want a really nice face tattoo.

    Maybe something like...

    https://boredbug.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/The-Tax-Man.jpg

    or...

    https://teamjimmyjoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Face-Skull.jpg

    This one is is pretty nice...

    https://thestyleup.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/face_tattoos_07.jpg

    I don't know...
    I'll come up with something.

    Man, I really hope those 1st two are watercolors, for the sake of their marriages!

    • Replies: @Adam Smith
    Some chicks dig face tattoos...

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f5/9c/8b/f59c8bf8a8546b05d8449d0583709475.jpg

    http://tattoo-journal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Face-Tattoo-46-650x650.jpg

    https://lillyslaughterswampwindshome.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/tumblr_ox6l6a2wh71shl2c7o1_1280.jpg

    https://66.media.tumblr.com/891b90f56b62610386677abec06a09c1/tumblr_obyjcnK77a1szucd3o1_1280.jpg
  46. @anon
    Women's preference for security over liberty is established in so many ways, and is another verification of evo-psych. Too be honest, I'm surprised that the bar is that high.

    InB4 Rosie:yes, not all women are like that. Just a large majority.

    “Oh yeah, but a majority of white women voted for Trump!” Hey, I believe her, but Trump is no man of principle. That’s not why I voted for him. We haven’t had a man of principle in that office since Ronnie, or arguably, Calvin Coolidge. (Actually, Jimmy was one to a great degree, but I just agree with many of his principles.)

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    "... just disagreed ..." dang spell check.. or something.
    , @Rich
    Ronnie had no principles. Hr appointed an affirmative action female to the USSC, signed Martin King day into law, raised taxes and turned tail after getting our boys killed in Lebanon. He gave a good speech, but he turned out to be just another used car salesman.
  47. anon[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @Elmer's Washable School Glue

    K´ung-Tze, the Shakyamuni and Jesus all warned against toying with the meaning of words – and both are dog whistles to a degree that precludes meaningful answers.
     
    Exactly. It all makes sense once you recognize that "liberty" is nothing but a corollary of "law." The "right to life" is nothing but a law precluding another from killing you. The "right to bear arms" is a law preventing someone else from taking your guns away. The "right to free speech" is a law to protect you from being silenced. The dimmer sort of libertarians think that such laws should only apply against the government, but when the US passes a law to prevent google from purging conservatves, does "liberty" go up or down? Most people here, myself included, would support this, but if you really think "liberty" is freedom from government telling people what to do, then this law is certaintly anti-liberty.

    All actions impact others to some extent; you could really argue your liberty is being taken away to support or oppose anything. Instead of arguing which laws "increase" or "decrease" liberty, it's best to think about what the best outcomes are and who is most qualified to determine them.

    The dimmer sort of libertarians think that such laws should only apply against the government, but when the US passes a law to prevent google from purging conservatves, does “liberty” go up or down? Most people here, myself included, would support this, but if you really think “liberty” is freedom from government telling people what to do, then this law is certaintly anti-liberty.

    The smug, dimmer sort of commentators make straw-man arguments completely removed from reality. Google was given immunity from content liability because it claimed it is a platform, like the phone company, instead of a publisher like a newspaper. By censoring conservative voices, ,google is no longer acting like a platform but instead like a publisher and like every other publisher, it should be held liable for all the content on its sites. If google wants to retain content liability immunity, it needs to act like a platform again and stop censoring conservative voices.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Elmer's Washable School Glue
    Dude, I agreed with you. I think Google is evil and should be held accountable. But "content liability" is itself a type of law and enforcing it, from a knee-jerk anti-state perspctive, "decreases" liberty just like a more direct free speech law would.

    You totally missed my real point: liberty originates from law. The state creates some rights by taking away others, so the distinction between "public safety" and "civil liberties" is false and misleasding.
  48. @Stan d Mute

    pointing out one of the few bright spots* among the disastrous happenings in this Kung Flu Infotainment Panic-Fest
     
    A blazing bright spot is that the geezers and soccer moms are largely off our roadways at exactly the same time that cops are avoiding traffic enforcement due to coronaphobia.

    Sadly for me, this once in a millennium confluence occurs when I no longer have a sports car and efforts to procure one on loan from a friend have failed as my friends all know me too well.

    Roads at 5% capacity. Gas at $1.30. – – ROAD TRIP!

    There’s never been a better time in a half a century.

  49. @Mark G.

    Most Americans don’t want a shot at liberty if it comes with a chance of death. Between 1775 and 2020, liberty’s stock price crashed through the floor while security’s went to the moon.

     

    That is very much true. Just think of Franklin's often quoted statement from 1775 that those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. We really are not the same country that we used to be.

    That is very much true. Just think of Franklin’s often quoted statement from 1775 that those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. We really are not the same country that we used to be.

    A smallpox epidemic hit America that very year and showed Franklin was pro-quarantine though.

    Many of the leading figures associated with the American Revolution were also involved in the attempt to stop the disastrous spread of smallpox throughout the American Colonies and beyond. Such individuals included George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin, among others. Prior to the steps made by these parties, public health policies in the colonies were not well established; they were limited to emergency situations. This is to say that policies and programs sprung up around epidemics and quarantines, wherever they were needed in the moment.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1775%E2%80%931782_North_American_smallpox_epidemic

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Mark G.
    Thank you for the article. If you wanted to find out if liberty was more valued then than now comparing reactions to infectious diseases would be instructive.

    Smallpox had a thirty percent death rate according to your article. Coronavirus has a death rate much lower than that. For young people the death rate is extremely low. For older people the death rate is higher but years of remaining life lost is low since many of them would have only lived a year or two longer since many of them had other serious health conditions.

    The reaction to smallpox was basically to isolate sick people and to have requirements that cases be reported to the authorities. Sometimes if a large percentage of the inhabitants of a town became sick a whole town would be quarantined.

    The reaction to the coronavirus seems to be more to quarantine the whole population to keep them away from sick people rather than vice versa. This has resulted in almost a complete lockdown of large parts of the economy with devastating economic results. Some proponents of this want this to continue for months, maybe even until a vaccine is found which may be a year off. Nothing like this has ever been done in American history before. It is important to emphasize here that this is a much less serious disease than smallpox or the many other highly deadly infectious diseases which previously existed.
    , @nebulafox
    Franklin's strong advocacy of vaccination had a lot to do with losing his only legitimate son to smallpox at the age of 4. From what I can gather, he was moderately pro-vaccination by that point and intended for the kid to undergo the procedure, but wanted to wait until he recovered sufficient strength from an unrelated illness... I'm sure that deeply haunted him and made him strongly pro-vaccination.

    As a side note, it is very reasonable to debate whether there would even be United States if Washington didn't have the Continental forces vaccinated at Valley Forge. Washington gained immunity from smallpox the old fashioned way when young-just like the Kangxi Emperor, Mozart, and Stalin-so he was very aware of the potentially lethal nature of the disease.

    , @anon

    A smallpox epidemic hit America that very year and showed Franklin was pro-quarantine though.
     
    Do you have an actual quote from Benjamin Franklin’s writings or just your dubious Wikipedia article? The only quotes I can find from Benjamin Franklin’s writings is that he regretted not inoculating his son against smallpox - nothing about forced quarantine or even forced vaccinations.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2653186/
  50. @Intelligent Dasein
    Even I was not quite prepared for what a nation of mindlessly conformist nitwits we have become. At the grocery store yesterday, virtually everyone was wearing a mask except for me and a rather attractive young hijabi woman (the irony there!), even though masks have not been made mandatory in my state. Me and a few other anti-panic proponents here have been diligently holding the line against the government lockdown, and have been proven correct every step of the way, but it seems the powers that be are bound and determined to have their emergency theater in any case, and the public is overwelmingly in favor of it. I read now that Georgians are protesting against their governor opening up the state too early. Strangely, so is Donald Trump.

    I believe we are now in a special historical position to witness the concretization of the old truism that God punishes the sinner by throwing him into more sin, i.e. by letting him have what he has chosen, good and hard. For so many years in this country we have neglected the Sabbath observence, preferring rather to shop and watch spectacles, to work when we were commanded to rest; and we prefer the convenience of Amazon to the community of our neighbors.

    Now God is reclaiming His lost Sabbaths. The phony Church of the New Order, which never believed in Him and never pleased Him, is taken away, and people couldn't attend even if they would; but the shopping and sports spectacles and casual dining are also gone, as are the jobs, and people are forced to sit at home and pray for deliverance. They would not work together in obedience and charity; now they will not work at all, their small businesses are crushed, and the evil Amazon will be the last retailer standing, whose hideous leader they will be forced to grovel to if they wish to buy or sell.

    We have neglected to treat the aged and the sick with prudent consideration, with the simple mercies which cost us little except our time, instead erecting confabulous sick-care systems and nursing homes to eat up their wealth and enrich the corporate parasites. Now the old people cannot get a visit from a loved one as they wait to die in their miasmic swamps of infection; and should you have to put a loved one in a hospital, you will not be able to see them while some Third World nurse holds their life in her barely literate hands. We have made a mockery out of marriage and scoffed at praying for the dead; now weddings and funerals are no more. We have aborted and contracepted ourselves to the point of negative population growth, and this was during the times of abundance; now the abortuaries are doing brisk "essential" business, and we wait in horror to see the birth rates in nine months. We were terrified of a common cold virus, therefore the creepy Bill Gates, the self-appointed commissar of world health, has a vaccine he will sell you in 18 months, and an immunology passport he will issue so he can decide when you can leave your house again.

    Too many of us stupidly believed in the democratizing promises of social media, and found out only too late that Facebook will shut you down if you attempt to organize an anti-lockdown protest. That smartphone was so convenient, now it will chirp and alert the authorities if you violate the social distancing rules. It was such a consumer paradise when we outsorced our manufacturing so we could have cheap Chinese crap, but now we can't even make our own facemasks or pharmaceuticals. In short, all our trust was in this world, in our own hubris and greed and sensuous indulgence, in lies and liars and sloth, in ignoring the cliams of eternity upon our frail temperate existence. As it turns to dust in our hands, can we honestly say we were not warned?

    As an extension, here is a blog post that demonstrates the veracity of another claim made by myself and the anti-panic proponents, viz. that infection by coronavirus is already quite widespread and not dangerous, that lockdowns have been totally ineffective at their ostensible purpose of flattening the curve, that the nebulous concept of "herd immunity" is already a de facto reality, and that therefore all of this was unnecessary. It has to do with the fact that the increasing number of confirmed cases is entirely a function of the increasing number of tests performed and is not indicative of a "spreading epidemic." The correlation between tests and cases displays a very curious relationship. Can you see what it is?

    https://i2.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/cases-vs-tests-usa.png?w=677&ssl=1

    "That's very linear, Sheriff."
    "Age will flatten a man, Wendell."


    The Corona Panic of 2020 has been the biggest, lamest, and costliest farce ever perpetrated since the French Revolution, and the free peoples of the Western world have deserved every bit of it. I can only pray that God in His mercy will not punish the innocent along with the guilty, and that He will protect the lives and interests of those who held out as best they could against the long bathos of Clown World ascendancy. At this critical moment when so much seems lost and with more set to follow, we must do well by remembering the old adage that evil doth never prosper. Yes, the man who does the evil may prosper; he may escape punishment in this life and die peacefully in his bed; but the evil plan, the evil intention, the evil idea never goes on to become reality. It is always overcome by the good, which penetrates it from beneath and from beyond. The whole of history is a tapestry of good, a single chord of divine harmony that invites us to resonate with its eternal tones. We regard as heroes those who in every age answered this call. Let it be us, and leave all the consequences to Him who plays the notes.

    I can’t say that I agree with every word of that, but it sure is some nice writing.

    • Thanks: Intelligent Dasein
  51. @Achmed E. Newman
    "Oh yeah, but a majority of white women voted for Trump!" Hey, I believe her, but Trump is no man of principle. That's not why I voted for him. We haven't had a man of principle in that office since Ronnie, or arguably, Calvin Coolidge. (Actually, Jimmy was one to a great degree, but I just agree with many of his principles.)

    “… just disagreed …” dang spell check.. or something.

  52. @AaronInMVD
    So, here I still am in Uruguay. Raw dogging life, except for those times I am inside a supermarket because there you need to put the mask on per the supermarket's rules.

    Numbers are starting to come out suggesting we have the lowest R0 in the world for this uncommon cold. We still aren't hitting out capacity for testing, but out of six hundred-ish tests 8 popped up positive yesterday. We still have no mandatory lockdown, but a lot of voluntary compliance with the government's recommendations. Beaches got opened back up now that we are headed into fall. Over the next month it seems we are getting staggered voluntary re-openings into our new, very Asian normal.

    At this point, living in a country where the government is trying to do it's best off of third hand hype and panic... It is hard not to promote the idea the "civilized world" just wanted an excuse to take an authoritarian turn, and that this was a somewhat planned disaster. Nearly all of the guilty are probably just caught up in the hysteria, but they are using it to try to force as much of their wishlist as they can upon their herds.

    The biggest damage to the local economy here is going to be the tourism sector trying to adapt to the new normal, but the locals here in the free world can't do much to fight the rest of the world turning into a factory farm.

    Thank you for the on-the-scene report, Aaron. You make it sound like some of the Police State bit will not go away. I hope you will chime in to keep me posted, and I’ll keep your blog in its own tab (I have many!) to check on you and your attempt at living in a free world.

  53. @res
    The Covid-19 craziness has been full of strange new respect (and antipathy) between various commenters and bloggers. One of the more interesting outcomes of it in the Unz Review comments sections. It has completely upended the usual fault lines for differences here.

    I don’t think that’s quite true. It seems to me that the “new division” Covid-19 fault lines have been with us all along and are still more-or-less that of believers of conspiracies and Inner Party (and Jew-obsessed) on the one hand and more empirical types on the other. Or put another way, people who perceive themselves to be persecuted or ignored geniuses (“I’m always right, but I don’t have the power, influence, attention of others, etc. I should!”) vs. sober people who carefully weigh their views and modify them as evidence dictates.

    • Replies: @MattinLA
    Jew-obsessed? You mean like Ron Unz, who's on your side? Gimme a break. The distinction is zimple: between those who scare too easy, and those who never liked being buffaloed into anything. You are among the former....
    , @res
    That's a fair response. On reflection, I think I overstated my point ("completely upended"). But I still think I have a valid point. There has definitely been some rearrangement of who thinks who is worth listening to concerning COVID-19 vs. other topics. Or in less extreme fashion, who agrees with whom.

    I think we actually provide a decent example of the latter form. The two of us appear to be on the same page for most topics, but my sense is I tend more towards a "COVID-19 is serious, but the level of lockdown in the US is unjustified except for a select few areas (e.g. NYC)" view while I think you tend more towards a "lockdowns are justified" view. Please feel free to clarify if I have misread you.

    But I do tend to just go along with the measures I think have a decent cost/benefit (or which don't inconvenience me TOO much) even if I think they are overkill. So I have my face covering which I wear when I am out and about near people. The interesting thing is I have gotten more positive comments for not wearing a mask and negative comments for wearing a mask (etc.) than the reverse.

    And I was scrupulous about wearing a mask when I was sick and their use was being discouraged by the CDC.
  54. @Twinkie
    I don’t think that’s quite true. It seems to me that the “new division” Covid-19 fault lines have been with us all along and are still more-or-less that of believers of conspiracies and Inner Party (and Jew-obsessed) on the one hand and more empirical types on the other. Or put another way, people who perceive themselves to be persecuted or ignored geniuses (“I’m always right, but I don’t have the power, influence, attention of others, etc. I should!”) vs. sober people who carefully weigh their views and modify them as evidence dictates.

    Jew-obsessed? You mean like Ron Unz, who’s on your side? Gimme a break. The distinction is zimple: between those who scare too easy, and those who never liked being buffaloed into anything. You are among the former….

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    You mean like Ron Unz, who’s on your side?
     
    Mr. Unz and I disagree on some things and agree on others. I used to disagree with him on the Hispanic crime rate issue, but after reviewing his articles and data, have come closer to his view - I think the age-normed Hispanic crime rate is probably around 1.5x the white rate.

    On the Covid-19, I consider ridiculous his suspicion that it was some sort of an engineered bio-weapon. I only agree with him on the severity of the pandemic, the part of his opinion that is data-based.

    those who scare too easy
     
    Don’t make me laugh.

    those who never liked being buffaloed into anything.
     
    You mean like the anti-vaccine people who have managed to bring back the measles in a first world country? (Granted, they had help from illiterate immigrants, but those people have an excuse - they are third world illiterates).
  55. @Toronto Russian

    That is very much true. Just think of Franklin’s often quoted statement from 1775 that those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. We really are not the same country that we used to be.
     
    A smallpox epidemic hit America that very year and showed Franklin was pro-quarantine though.

    Many of the leading figures associated with the American Revolution were also involved in the attempt to stop the disastrous spread of smallpox throughout the American Colonies and beyond. Such individuals included George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin, among others. Prior to the steps made by these parties, public health policies in the colonies were not well established; they were limited to emergency situations. This is to say that policies and programs sprung up around epidemics and quarantines, wherever they were needed in the moment.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1775%E2%80%931782_North_American_smallpox_epidemic
     

    Thank you for the article. If you wanted to find out if liberty was more valued then than now comparing reactions to infectious diseases would be instructive.

    Smallpox had a thirty percent death rate according to your article. Coronavirus has a death rate much lower than that. For young people the death rate is extremely low. For older people the death rate is higher but years of remaining life lost is low since many of them would have only lived a year or two longer since many of them had other serious health conditions.

    The reaction to smallpox was basically to isolate sick people and to have requirements that cases be reported to the authorities. Sometimes if a large percentage of the inhabitants of a town became sick a whole town would be quarantined.

    The reaction to the coronavirus seems to be more to quarantine the whole population to keep them away from sick people rather than vice versa. This has resulted in almost a complete lockdown of large parts of the economy with devastating economic results. Some proponents of this want this to continue for months, maybe even until a vaccine is found which may be a year off. Nothing like this has ever been done in American history before. It is important to emphasize here that this is a much less serious disease than smallpox or the many other highly deadly infectious diseases which previously existed.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    But we do live in a globalized, urbanized world where diseases are much more easily transmittable, and have an economic infrastructure that is very fragile to disruptions. I think that having an economic system that assumes a steady-state model of human activity and relies off a fragile system of debt has been foolish, but nothing we can do about that this moment...

    To say that the powers-that-be in the United States have been handling the pandemic badly is an understatement, i.e, YouTube censoring anything against WHO recommendation, the same organization that has proven itself incompetent and beholden to the same government whose initial lies and bungling have partially led to this. Securing the absolute vitals-food, basic medical care, etc-are necessary: Singapore has a very strict lockdown going on right now, but you can still go out and buy food, even do takeaway at hawker centers. But there's no question that quarantine and social distancing measures are necessary. This isn't about liberty vs. security: this is about basic societal common sense.

  56. @songbird
    It's curious how Sweden's response seems to contrast with the response that I would presuppose from typical Swedes on an individual level, who I think would be like Über-Democrats and lean to a perception of public safety.

    I wonder if I have pegged them wrong? Or is it oligarchy that is causing the Swedish response, and Swedes are rallying behind the state, after the fact, as is their wont?

    Maybe it’s this?
    https://tradingeconomics.com/sweden/private-debt-to-gdp
    Private Debt to GDP in Sweden increased to 279.70 percent in 2018 from 274.50 percent in 2017.

    • Replies: @songbird
    I don't think that it's a big enough difference from Norway to explain the policy differences.

    I think they may have realized that they didn't have enough control over the "New Swedes" to institute a quarantine and so it would be embarrassing to have one.
  57. @Toronto Russian

    That is very much true. Just think of Franklin’s often quoted statement from 1775 that those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. We really are not the same country that we used to be.
     
    A smallpox epidemic hit America that very year and showed Franklin was pro-quarantine though.

    Many of the leading figures associated with the American Revolution were also involved in the attempt to stop the disastrous spread of smallpox throughout the American Colonies and beyond. Such individuals included George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin, among others. Prior to the steps made by these parties, public health policies in the colonies were not well established; they were limited to emergency situations. This is to say that policies and programs sprung up around epidemics and quarantines, wherever they were needed in the moment.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1775%E2%80%931782_North_American_smallpox_epidemic
     

    Franklin’s strong advocacy of vaccination had a lot to do with losing his only legitimate son to smallpox at the age of 4. From what I can gather, he was moderately pro-vaccination by that point and intended for the kid to undergo the procedure, but wanted to wait until he recovered sufficient strength from an unrelated illness… I’m sure that deeply haunted him and made him strongly pro-vaccination.

    As a side note, it is very reasonable to debate whether there would even be United States if Washington didn’t have the Continental forces vaccinated at Valley Forge. Washington gained immunity from smallpox the old fashioned way when young-just like the Kangxi Emperor, Mozart, and Stalin-so he was very aware of the potentially lethal nature of the disease.

    • Replies: @res
    Interesting comment overall. Thanks.

    As a side note, it is very reasonable to debate whether there would even be United States if Washington didn’t have the Continental forces vaccinated at Valley Forge.
     
    Here is a brief article with some background.
    https://www.armyheritage.org/75-information/soldier-stories/209-smallpox
  58. @Mark G.
    Thank you for the article. If you wanted to find out if liberty was more valued then than now comparing reactions to infectious diseases would be instructive.

    Smallpox had a thirty percent death rate according to your article. Coronavirus has a death rate much lower than that. For young people the death rate is extremely low. For older people the death rate is higher but years of remaining life lost is low since many of them would have only lived a year or two longer since many of them had other serious health conditions.

    The reaction to smallpox was basically to isolate sick people and to have requirements that cases be reported to the authorities. Sometimes if a large percentage of the inhabitants of a town became sick a whole town would be quarantined.

    The reaction to the coronavirus seems to be more to quarantine the whole population to keep them away from sick people rather than vice versa. This has resulted in almost a complete lockdown of large parts of the economy with devastating economic results. Some proponents of this want this to continue for months, maybe even until a vaccine is found which may be a year off. Nothing like this has ever been done in American history before. It is important to emphasize here that this is a much less serious disease than smallpox or the many other highly deadly infectious diseases which previously existed.

    But we do live in a globalized, urbanized world where diseases are much more easily transmittable, and have an economic infrastructure that is very fragile to disruptions. I think that having an economic system that assumes a steady-state model of human activity and relies off a fragile system of debt has been foolish, but nothing we can do about that this moment…

    To say that the powers-that-be in the United States have been handling the pandemic badly is an understatement, i.e, YouTube censoring anything against WHO recommendation, the same organization that has proven itself incompetent and beholden to the same government whose initial lies and bungling have partially led to this. Securing the absolute vitals-food, basic medical care, etc-are necessary: Singapore has a very strict lockdown going on right now, but you can still go out and buy food, even do takeaway at hawker centers. But there’s no question that quarantine and social distancing measures are necessary. This isn’t about liberty vs. security: this is about basic societal common sense.

  59. @MattinLA
    Jew-obsessed? You mean like Ron Unz, who's on your side? Gimme a break. The distinction is zimple: between those who scare too easy, and those who never liked being buffaloed into anything. You are among the former....

    You mean like Ron Unz, who’s on your side?

    Mr. Unz and I disagree on some things and agree on others. I used to disagree with him on the Hispanic crime rate issue, but after reviewing his articles and data, have come closer to his view – I think the age-normed Hispanic crime rate is probably around 1.5x the white rate.

    On the Covid-19, I consider ridiculous his suspicion that it was some sort of an engineered bio-weapon. I only agree with him on the severity of the pandemic, the part of his opinion that is data-based.

    those who scare too easy

    Don’t make me laugh.

    those who never liked being buffaloed into anything.

    You mean like the anti-vaccine people who have managed to bring back the measles in a first world country? (Granted, they had help from illiterate immigrants, but those people have an excuse – they are third world illiterates).

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    >On the Covid-19, I consider ridiculous his suspicion that it was some sort of an engineered bio-weapon.

    Stupidity and accidents just aren't as fun as malicious conspiracies in the public imagination.

    >(Granted, they had help from illiterate immigrants, but those people have an excuse – they are third world illiterates).

    No, they don't: *plenty* of third world illiterates out there that remember all too well what life was like before vaccination... if anybody still doesn't believe that, then they just aren't worth dealing with. They have no excuse whatsoever. At best, they are choosing to ignore their grandparents who know of what they speak.

    Then there are those who don't deny science, but do deny common sense when it comes to public hygiene-vagrants-to the point that bubonic plague is a real threat again in California.

  60. @Intelligent Dasein
    Even I was not quite prepared for what a nation of mindlessly conformist nitwits we have become. At the grocery store yesterday, virtually everyone was wearing a mask except for me and a rather attractive young hijabi woman (the irony there!), even though masks have not been made mandatory in my state. Me and a few other anti-panic proponents here have been diligently holding the line against the government lockdown, and have been proven correct every step of the way, but it seems the powers that be are bound and determined to have their emergency theater in any case, and the public is overwelmingly in favor of it. I read now that Georgians are protesting against their governor opening up the state too early. Strangely, so is Donald Trump.

    I believe we are now in a special historical position to witness the concretization of the old truism that God punishes the sinner by throwing him into more sin, i.e. by letting him have what he has chosen, good and hard. For so many years in this country we have neglected the Sabbath observence, preferring rather to shop and watch spectacles, to work when we were commanded to rest; and we prefer the convenience of Amazon to the community of our neighbors.

    Now God is reclaiming His lost Sabbaths. The phony Church of the New Order, which never believed in Him and never pleased Him, is taken away, and people couldn't attend even if they would; but the shopping and sports spectacles and casual dining are also gone, as are the jobs, and people are forced to sit at home and pray for deliverance. They would not work together in obedience and charity; now they will not work at all, their small businesses are crushed, and the evil Amazon will be the last retailer standing, whose hideous leader they will be forced to grovel to if they wish to buy or sell.

    We have neglected to treat the aged and the sick with prudent consideration, with the simple mercies which cost us little except our time, instead erecting confabulous sick-care systems and nursing homes to eat up their wealth and enrich the corporate parasites. Now the old people cannot get a visit from a loved one as they wait to die in their miasmic swamps of infection; and should you have to put a loved one in a hospital, you will not be able to see them while some Third World nurse holds their life in her barely literate hands. We have made a mockery out of marriage and scoffed at praying for the dead; now weddings and funerals are no more. We have aborted and contracepted ourselves to the point of negative population growth, and this was during the times of abundance; now the abortuaries are doing brisk "essential" business, and we wait in horror to see the birth rates in nine months. We were terrified of a common cold virus, therefore the creepy Bill Gates, the self-appointed commissar of world health, has a vaccine he will sell you in 18 months, and an immunology passport he will issue so he can decide when you can leave your house again.

    Too many of us stupidly believed in the democratizing promises of social media, and found out only too late that Facebook will shut you down if you attempt to organize an anti-lockdown protest. That smartphone was so convenient, now it will chirp and alert the authorities if you violate the social distancing rules. It was such a consumer paradise when we outsorced our manufacturing so we could have cheap Chinese crap, but now we can't even make our own facemasks or pharmaceuticals. In short, all our trust was in this world, in our own hubris and greed and sensuous indulgence, in lies and liars and sloth, in ignoring the cliams of eternity upon our frail temperate existence. As it turns to dust in our hands, can we honestly say we were not warned?

    As an extension, here is a blog post that demonstrates the veracity of another claim made by myself and the anti-panic proponents, viz. that infection by coronavirus is already quite widespread and not dangerous, that lockdowns have been totally ineffective at their ostensible purpose of flattening the curve, that the nebulous concept of "herd immunity" is already a de facto reality, and that therefore all of this was unnecessary. It has to do with the fact that the increasing number of confirmed cases is entirely a function of the increasing number of tests performed and is not indicative of a "spreading epidemic." The correlation between tests and cases displays a very curious relationship. Can you see what it is?

    https://i2.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/cases-vs-tests-usa.png?w=677&ssl=1

    "That's very linear, Sheriff."
    "Age will flatten a man, Wendell."


    The Corona Panic of 2020 has been the biggest, lamest, and costliest farce ever perpetrated since the French Revolution, and the free peoples of the Western world have deserved every bit of it. I can only pray that God in His mercy will not punish the innocent along with the guilty, and that He will protect the lives and interests of those who held out as best they could against the long bathos of Clown World ascendancy. At this critical moment when so much seems lost and with more set to follow, we must do well by remembering the old adage that evil doth never prosper. Yes, the man who does the evil may prosper; he may escape punishment in this life and die peacefully in his bed; but the evil plan, the evil intention, the evil idea never goes on to become reality. It is always overcome by the good, which penetrates it from beneath and from beyond. The whole of history is a tapestry of good, a single chord of divine harmony that invites us to resonate with its eternal tones. We regard as heroes those who in every age answered this call. Let it be us, and leave all the consequences to Him who plays the notes.

    I was talking about this virus and how concerned I was about it back in January and February. The irony is the same people who poked fun at me for thinking about it back then are now scared as hell, much more than I am. They constantly have their masks on while I don’t wear one.

  61. @Twinkie

    This ought to just about settle the matter. The latest preliminary reports suggest that 21% of New York City dwellers are seropositive for coronavirus antibodies. That alone brings the IFR down to about 0.5%.
     
    You are intellectually dishonest. The full quote:

    In New York City, 21 percent of people had antibodies for coronavirus, compared to 3.6 percent in upstate New York, 16.7 percent in Long Island and 11.7 percent in the Westchester/Rockland area.
     
    If this is your definition of “herd immunity,” you don’t know what that means.

    Over 10,000 people died in NYC in a span of a few weeks, a fatality rate of 120 per 100,000 people in as many weeks. NYC hospitals ICUs were like war zones. All that suffering and only 20% of the population were infected.

    However, as I’ve been saying and as others are starting to pick up on, a seropositive result is a proxy only for specific immunity. But there is also non-specific immunity, i.e. the people who were exposed to the virus but whose immune systems simply destroy it without needing to develop an antibody response. These people are not counted by antibody tests but they must comprise some additive component.
     
    Stop making things up. Here is a good summary of non-specific vs. specific immunity. Non-specific immunity is not what you think it is: https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-specific-and-vs-nonspecific-immunity/

    Most people have already been exposed to this virus and they are immune not in the sense that they’ve developed antibodies but in the sense they will neither get sick nor develop antibodies upon any subsequent exposure. Their innate immune system will handle corona just fine.
     
    From the same link: “ Most importantly, non-specific immunity does not form a defensive memory while specific immunity does.”

    Intelligent Dasein’s explanation seems to be in agreement with the text you cited. Could you elaborate on your objections? I am not a partisan in this matter.

    From the same link: “ Most importantly, non-specific immunity does not form a defensive memory while specific immunity does.”

    Sure, but an organism who beat the virus once has great odds of beating it again. It’s the same organism after all, bar some serious health deterioration in the meantime. Of course, there are factors like the weather, etc. which could change those odds for the worse. And of course you don’t want to be stuck with permanent side-effects from your infections.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Sure, but an organism who beat the virus once has great odds of beating it again. It’s the same organism after all, bar some serious health deterioration in the meantime.
     
    Intelligent Dasein either doesn't understand the terms he used - nonspecific immunity, in this case - or he is playing games with words to mislead the gullible (I tend to suspect the former).

    Nonspecific immunity is a wide range of bodily features and functions that resist foreign pathogens generally, including physical and chemical barriers. For example, if a Covid-19-infected droplet from another person falls on your skin, and the skin prevents it from entering your body, your body resisted the virus nonspecifically. Similarly (and this is why it's relatively safe to get takeout food even in this pandemic), if the same infected droplet fell on your food and you ingested it, the saliva in your mouth and the stomach acid in your body break down the virus. Again, your body resisted the virus nonspecifically. Note that, because of the nonspecific nature of this immunity, your body has not - in any way - developed the antibodies against the virus. There is no immunological memory and you are NOT immune. You just got lucky (you were not exposed to the virus in a manner that is conducive to transmission). The next time you INHALE the virus through your nose (because you don't wear a mask, as Intelligent Dasein boasts) and it enters your lung, you are not going to be immune, because you never developed the specific immunity for this virus.

    You can't count on nonspecific immunity to protect you against future exposures - it's not immunity in the sense we ordinarily discuss the term - specific resistance against a particular virus that is effective. So when you are discussing herd immunity, you are talking about specific immunity (and even that specific immunity is not 100% and/or is limited in duration in some cases).

    So Intelligent Dasein bringing this up is a red herring intended to bolster his counterfactual arguments (which, by the way, is full of numerical and logical errors, e.g. IFR in NYC is not 0.5%, it's more like 0.9%, the infection rate is very low in Upstate NY which he leaves out, etc. etc.).
  62. I don’t know if this will be considered too off-topic, but some of the comments address immunization issues, so I will risk it.

    There is some concern that a vaccine will not be possible for Covid-19, because the antibodies do not guarantee immunization. Another possibility is that they guarantee immunization for only a short time. In this latter event, I think this may be good news for the vaccine industry, which reportedly has struggled with a low profit margin. A lower immunization period will probably mean a need for a greater frequency of vaccination, which in turn will mean a larger profit margin. But I guess we will have to wait and see.

  63. anon[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @Toronto Russian

    That is very much true. Just think of Franklin’s often quoted statement from 1775 that those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. We really are not the same country that we used to be.
     
    A smallpox epidemic hit America that very year and showed Franklin was pro-quarantine though.

    Many of the leading figures associated with the American Revolution were also involved in the attempt to stop the disastrous spread of smallpox throughout the American Colonies and beyond. Such individuals included George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin, among others. Prior to the steps made by these parties, public health policies in the colonies were not well established; they were limited to emergency situations. This is to say that policies and programs sprung up around epidemics and quarantines, wherever they were needed in the moment.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1775%E2%80%931782_North_American_smallpox_epidemic
     

    A smallpox epidemic hit America that very year and showed Franklin was pro-quarantine though.

    Do you have an actual quote from Benjamin Franklin’s writings or just your dubious Wikipedia article? The only quotes I can find from Benjamin Franklin’s writings is that he regretted not inoculating his son against smallpox – nothing about forced quarantine or even forced vaccinations.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2653186/

  64. @Twinkie

    You mean like Ron Unz, who’s on your side?
     
    Mr. Unz and I disagree on some things and agree on others. I used to disagree with him on the Hispanic crime rate issue, but after reviewing his articles and data, have come closer to his view - I think the age-normed Hispanic crime rate is probably around 1.5x the white rate.

    On the Covid-19, I consider ridiculous his suspicion that it was some sort of an engineered bio-weapon. I only agree with him on the severity of the pandemic, the part of his opinion that is data-based.

    those who scare too easy
     
    Don’t make me laugh.

    those who never liked being buffaloed into anything.
     
    You mean like the anti-vaccine people who have managed to bring back the measles in a first world country? (Granted, they had help from illiterate immigrants, but those people have an excuse - they are third world illiterates).

    >On the Covid-19, I consider ridiculous his suspicion that it was some sort of an engineered bio-weapon.

    Stupidity and accidents just aren’t as fun as malicious conspiracies in the public imagination.

    >(Granted, they had help from illiterate immigrants, but those people have an excuse – they are third world illiterates).

    No, they don’t: *plenty* of third world illiterates out there that remember all too well what life was like before vaccination… if anybody still doesn’t believe that, then they just aren’t worth dealing with. They have no excuse whatsoever. At best, they are choosing to ignore their grandparents who know of what they speak.

    Then there are those who don’t deny science, but do deny common sense when it comes to public hygiene-vagrants-to the point that bubonic plague is a real threat again in California.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    No, they don’t: *plenty* of third world illiterates out there that remember all too well what life was like before vaccination…
     
    The intent of what I wrote wasn't so much to excuse the third world illierates as to critique the first world anti-vaccine people for their obstinancy that harms the public (and often their own children).
  65. Yes, our political nomenclature is hopeless – by design. In thinking about yougov canned info snacks like this, we can’t ever forget that polling is propaganda. We’re constantly getting this statist tradeoff nonsense stuffed up our ass by pollsters, bots, and talking heads. Safety-XOR-liberties is, as always, a specious dichotomy.

    To ask the question in the abstract is itself a manipulative trick. Under the world standard governance that the USG fights tooth and nail, the problem is inherently situational, based on finely-articulated conditions. Those conditions are set out in ICCPR Article 4, which happens to be the supreme law of the land; in General Comment 29, the authoritative guidance for interpreting this commitment of state; and the Siracusa Principles, which are common law under the Paquete Habana decision.

    When polls articulate world standard rights and rule of law, overwhelming majorities of the US public agree with them.

    http://worldpublicopinion.net/polls-find-strong-international-consensus-on-human-rights/

    So next time some egghead pollster asks you to think hard about a stupid question, just tell him fuck off.

  66. @Achmed E. Newman
    "Oh yeah, but a majority of white women voted for Trump!" Hey, I believe her, but Trump is no man of principle. That's not why I voted for him. We haven't had a man of principle in that office since Ronnie, or arguably, Calvin Coolidge. (Actually, Jimmy was one to a great degree, but I just agree with many of his principles.)

    Ronnie had no principles. Hr appointed an affirmative action female to the USSC, signed Martin King day into law, raised taxes and turned tail after getting our boys killed in Lebanon. He gave a good speech, but he turned out to be just another used car salesman.

    • Replies: @songbird

    signed Martin King day into law
     
    I don't think he wanted to sign it, but he was astute enough to know that he couldn't block it.

    Interestingly, in Kansas City, in 2018 the city council renamed an historic street after King, and there was a grass roots movement to change the name back to the original name the Paseo, which succeeded, after a petition forced a vote. Kansas City is about 30% black, and the vote was 70% to do away with the King name.
  67. @anon

    The dimmer sort of libertarians think that such laws should only apply against the government, but when the US passes a law to prevent google from purging conservatves, does “liberty” go up or down? Most people here, myself included, would support this, but if you really think “liberty” is freedom from government telling people what to do, then this law is certaintly anti-liberty.
     
    The smug, dimmer sort of commentators make straw-man arguments completely removed from reality. Google was given immunity from content liability because it claimed it is a platform, like the phone company, instead of a publisher like a newspaper. By censoring conservative voices, ,google is no longer acting like a platform but instead like a publisher and like every other publisher, it should be held liable for all the content on its sites. If google wants to retain content liability immunity, it needs to act like a platform again and stop censoring conservative voices.

    Dude, I agreed with you. I think Google is evil and should be held accountable. But “content liability” is itself a type of law and enforcing it, from a knee-jerk anti-state perspctive, “decreases” liberty just like a more direct free speech law would.

    You totally missed my real point: liberty originates from law. The state creates some rights by taking away others, so the distinction between “public safety” and “civil liberties” is false and misleasding.

  68. We are at the “let someone else do it stage” of socialism. No one wants to do it themselves.
    Some refer to it as apathy, but actually its a lack of civic duty and responsibility.

    This motley crew of diverse nobodies laughingly referred to as “government” is no longer up to the task of governing. “Diversity” is chaotic and cannot achieve order.

    This next election is probably the last. A dictator will inevitably rise.

    Only a dictator can govern this mess now. Democracy is always followed by dictators.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    You called?

    https://ferrebeekeeper.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/sulla_normal.jpeg?w=490
  69. @Rich
    Ronnie had no principles. Hr appointed an affirmative action female to the USSC, signed Martin King day into law, raised taxes and turned tail after getting our boys killed in Lebanon. He gave a good speech, but he turned out to be just another used car salesman.

    signed Martin King day into law

    I don’t think he wanted to sign it, but he was astute enough to know that he couldn’t block it.

    Interestingly, in Kansas City, in 2018 the city council renamed an historic street after King, and there was a grass roots movement to change the name back to the original name the Paseo, which succeeded, after a petition forced a vote. Kansas City is about 30% black, and the vote was 70% to do away with the King name.

    • Replies: @Rich
    Reagan's bad moves are always excused as being actions he was forced to do. Judging by what he actually did in office, he was just another left leaning Rockefeller Republican. I can't think of too many conservative accomplishments during his administration, but I do see a whole bunch of what were once considered left-wing accomplishments. Higher taxes, deficit spending, affirmative action, government expansion. He fooled a lot of people. But he gave a good speech.
  70. @128
    Maybe it's this?
    https://tradingeconomics.com/sweden/private-debt-to-gdp
    Private Debt to GDP in Sweden increased to 279.70 percent in 2018 from 274.50 percent in 2017.

    I don’t think that it’s a big enough difference from Norway to explain the policy differences.

    I think they may have realized that they didn’t have enough control over the “New Swedes” to institute a quarantine and so it would be embarrassing to have one.

  71. @nebulafox
    >On the Covid-19, I consider ridiculous his suspicion that it was some sort of an engineered bio-weapon.

    Stupidity and accidents just aren't as fun as malicious conspiracies in the public imagination.

    >(Granted, they had help from illiterate immigrants, but those people have an excuse – they are third world illiterates).

    No, they don't: *plenty* of third world illiterates out there that remember all too well what life was like before vaccination... if anybody still doesn't believe that, then they just aren't worth dealing with. They have no excuse whatsoever. At best, they are choosing to ignore their grandparents who know of what they speak.

    Then there are those who don't deny science, but do deny common sense when it comes to public hygiene-vagrants-to the point that bubonic plague is a real threat again in California.

    No, they don’t: *plenty* of third world illiterates out there that remember all too well what life was like before vaccination…

    The intent of what I wrote wasn’t so much to excuse the third world illierates as to critique the first world anti-vaccine people for their obstinancy that harms the public (and often their own children).

  72. @Achmed E. Newman
    Man, I really hope those 1st two are watercolors, for the sake of their marriages!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FnTW8O4UtI

    Some chicks dig face tattoos…

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    Not with a thousand condoms.

    Good luck getting sleep tonight...
  73. @Brás Cubas
    Intelligent Dasein's explanation seems to be in agreement with the text you cited. Could you elaborate on your objections? I am not a partisan in this matter.

    From the same link: “ Most importantly, non-specific immunity does not form a defensive memory while specific immunity does.”
     
    Sure, but an organism who beat the virus once has great odds of beating it again. It's the same organism after all, bar some serious health deterioration in the meantime. Of course, there are factors like the weather, etc. which could change those odds for the worse. And of course you don't want to be stuck with permanent side-effects from your infections.

    Sure, but an organism who beat the virus once has great odds of beating it again. It’s the same organism after all, bar some serious health deterioration in the meantime.

    Intelligent Dasein either doesn’t understand the terms he used – nonspecific immunity, in this case – or he is playing games with words to mislead the gullible (I tend to suspect the former).

    Nonspecific immunity is a wide range of bodily features and functions that resist foreign pathogens generally, including physical and chemical barriers. For example, if a Covid-19-infected droplet from another person falls on your skin, and the skin prevents it from entering your body, your body resisted the virus nonspecifically. Similarly (and this is why it’s relatively safe to get takeout food even in this pandemic), if the same infected droplet fell on your food and you ingested it, the saliva in your mouth and the stomach acid in your body break down the virus. Again, your body resisted the virus nonspecifically. Note that, because of the nonspecific nature of this immunity, your body has not – in any way – developed the antibodies against the virus. There is no immunological memory and you are NOT immune. You just got lucky (you were not exposed to the virus in a manner that is conducive to transmission). The next time you INHALE the virus through your nose (because you don’t wear a mask, as Intelligent Dasein boasts) and it enters your lung, you are not going to be immune, because you never developed the specific immunity for this virus.

    You can’t count on nonspecific immunity to protect you against future exposures – it’s not immunity in the sense we ordinarily discuss the term – specific resistance against a particular virus that is effective. So when you are discussing herd immunity, you are talking about specific immunity (and even that specific immunity is not 100% and/or is limited in duration in some cases).

    So Intelligent Dasein bringing this up is a red herring intended to bolster his counterfactual arguments (which, by the way, is full of numerical and logical errors, e.g. IFR in NYC is not 0.5%, it’s more like 0.9%, the infection rate is very low in Upstate NY which he leaves out, etc. etc.).

    • Replies: @Brás Cubas
    I have reread Intelligent Dasein's comment (and the article you linked to) and apparently I.D. has got some things wrong, so I finally agree with you on this. I.D.'s incorrect notion I am referring to is that nonspecific immunity is correlated with previous exposure, which, after your explanation and the one in the link you provided, I understand to be incorrect.

    I am a slow learner, so thanks for the patience.

  74. @Twinkie
    I don’t think that’s quite true. It seems to me that the “new division” Covid-19 fault lines have been with us all along and are still more-or-less that of believers of conspiracies and Inner Party (and Jew-obsessed) on the one hand and more empirical types on the other. Or put another way, people who perceive themselves to be persecuted or ignored geniuses (“I’m always right, but I don’t have the power, influence, attention of others, etc. I should!”) vs. sober people who carefully weigh their views and modify them as evidence dictates.

    That’s a fair response. On reflection, I think I overstated my point (“completely upended”). But I still think I have a valid point. There has definitely been some rearrangement of who thinks who is worth listening to concerning COVID-19 vs. other topics. Or in less extreme fashion, who agrees with whom.

    I think we actually provide a decent example of the latter form. The two of us appear to be on the same page for most topics, but my sense is I tend more towards a “COVID-19 is serious, but the level of lockdown in the US is unjustified except for a select few areas (e.g. NYC)” view while I think you tend more towards a “lockdowns are justified” view. Please feel free to clarify if I have misread you.

    But I do tend to just go along with the measures I think have a decent cost/benefit (or which don’t inconvenience me TOO much) even if I think they are overkill. So I have my face covering which I wear when I am out and about near people. The interesting thing is I have gotten more positive comments for not wearing a mask and negative comments for wearing a mask (etc.) than the reverse.

    And I was scrupulous about wearing a mask when I was sick and their use was being discouraged by the CDC.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    The two of us appear to be on the same page for most topics, but my sense is I tend more towards a “COVID-19 is serious, but the level of lockdown in the US is unjustified except for a select few areas (e.g. NYC)” view while I think you tend more towards a “lockdowns are justified” view.
     
    For me, the lockdown, as such, does not exist in isolation - there are many variables under consideration in context. I elaborated on some of these when I posted that video about a young man’s experienced of getting tested/quarantined in South Korea. If you have a conscientious, compliant, hygienic, and heathy (non-obese) population, the level of restrictions is going to be very different than that needed with a population with different characteristics. The timing of intervention also matters a great deal with a phenomenon that is potentially exponential in nature.

    You and I may differ on some specifics or trade off levels, but we derive our conclusions from the same source - facts and data. People such as Intelligent Dasein formulated their views weeks ago largely based on ideologies for lack of a better term and are engaging in mental gymnastics, selective quotes of numbers, and made-up theories to make the emerging data fit their priors, rather than admitting that they were wrong (instead he insists to-date that he was right about “everything”).

    You might remember (or not) that before the pandemic picked up steam in Italy and the U.S., I speculated that this was probably going to be somewhere between SARS and a bad flu in deadliness. I mildly disparaged both the ideas on Unz that this was going to only kill East Asians (Lance Weston) and that it was going to kill millions (Anatoly Karlin). Once I saw what happened in Italy and saw the data from China, however, I realized this was going to be more dangerous than influenza and became more supportive of restrictive measures.

    It’s for the same reason that I am a fan of A.E. When he is wrong or sees contrary data, he notes it (and keeps his old entries online for the record, rather than erasing it) and informs all of where he was off. That’s an intellectually honest human being whose words are worth reading. That’s not someone who is suffering from ego-poisoning or insecurity or neglected genius fantasy that he has to be right about everything all the time.
  75. @nebulafox
    Franklin's strong advocacy of vaccination had a lot to do with losing his only legitimate son to smallpox at the age of 4. From what I can gather, he was moderately pro-vaccination by that point and intended for the kid to undergo the procedure, but wanted to wait until he recovered sufficient strength from an unrelated illness... I'm sure that deeply haunted him and made him strongly pro-vaccination.

    As a side note, it is very reasonable to debate whether there would even be United States if Washington didn't have the Continental forces vaccinated at Valley Forge. Washington gained immunity from smallpox the old fashioned way when young-just like the Kangxi Emperor, Mozart, and Stalin-so he was very aware of the potentially lethal nature of the disease.

    Interesting comment overall. Thanks.

    As a side note, it is very reasonable to debate whether there would even be United States if Washington didn’t have the Continental forces vaccinated at Valley Forge.

    Here is a brief article with some background.
    https://www.armyheritage.org/75-information/soldier-stories/209-smallpox

  76. @songbird

    signed Martin King day into law
     
    I don't think he wanted to sign it, but he was astute enough to know that he couldn't block it.

    Interestingly, in Kansas City, in 2018 the city council renamed an historic street after King, and there was a grass roots movement to change the name back to the original name the Paseo, which succeeded, after a petition forced a vote. Kansas City is about 30% black, and the vote was 70% to do away with the King name.

    Reagan’s bad moves are always excused as being actions he was forced to do. Judging by what he actually did in office, he was just another left leaning Rockefeller Republican. I can’t think of too many conservative accomplishments during his administration, but I do see a whole bunch of what were once considered left-wing accomplishments. Higher taxes, deficit spending, affirmative action, government expansion. He fooled a lot of people. But he gave a good speech.

    • Replies: @songbird
    It was really weird when Reagan was treated like a brand name on the GOP debate platform. The moderator asked a question like, are you a fan of Reagan? And each of them was trying to outdo the other in answering yes. Celebrity endorsement is a weird enough phenomenon as it is without flipping it around and endorsing the celebrity, and in this case a dead one.
  77. @Twinkie

    Sure, but an organism who beat the virus once has great odds of beating it again. It’s the same organism after all, bar some serious health deterioration in the meantime.
     
    Intelligent Dasein either doesn't understand the terms he used - nonspecific immunity, in this case - or he is playing games with words to mislead the gullible (I tend to suspect the former).

    Nonspecific immunity is a wide range of bodily features and functions that resist foreign pathogens generally, including physical and chemical barriers. For example, if a Covid-19-infected droplet from another person falls on your skin, and the skin prevents it from entering your body, your body resisted the virus nonspecifically. Similarly (and this is why it's relatively safe to get takeout food even in this pandemic), if the same infected droplet fell on your food and you ingested it, the saliva in your mouth and the stomach acid in your body break down the virus. Again, your body resisted the virus nonspecifically. Note that, because of the nonspecific nature of this immunity, your body has not - in any way - developed the antibodies against the virus. There is no immunological memory and you are NOT immune. You just got lucky (you were not exposed to the virus in a manner that is conducive to transmission). The next time you INHALE the virus through your nose (because you don't wear a mask, as Intelligent Dasein boasts) and it enters your lung, you are not going to be immune, because you never developed the specific immunity for this virus.

    You can't count on nonspecific immunity to protect you against future exposures - it's not immunity in the sense we ordinarily discuss the term - specific resistance against a particular virus that is effective. So when you are discussing herd immunity, you are talking about specific immunity (and even that specific immunity is not 100% and/or is limited in duration in some cases).

    So Intelligent Dasein bringing this up is a red herring intended to bolster his counterfactual arguments (which, by the way, is full of numerical and logical errors, e.g. IFR in NYC is not 0.5%, it's more like 0.9%, the infection rate is very low in Upstate NY which he leaves out, etc. etc.).

    I have reread Intelligent Dasein’s comment (and the article you linked to) and apparently I.D. has got some things wrong, so I finally agree with you on this. I.D.’s incorrect notion I am referring to is that nonspecific immunity is correlated with previous exposure, which, after your explanation and the one in the link you provided, I understand to be incorrect.

    I am a slow learner, so thanks for the patience.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    No sir, that is not what I said.

    I said that "herd immunity" is a nebulous concept. I never said anything about non-specific immunity being correlated with previous exposure. I said that when you take the practical step of factoring in those people who will not even require an antibody response to survive their brush with Covid-19, the number of which is necessarily greater than those with specific immunity, then "herd immunity" (nebulous sense) is a de facto reality.

    This explains why other respiratory infections such as common colds and seasonal influenza run their course through the population and dwindle away without ever achieving the exposure levels required for "herd immunity" in the seropositive sense.

    Not only is this not wrong, it is not even contraversial.
  78. @Adam Smith
    Some chicks dig face tattoos...

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f5/9c/8b/f59c8bf8a8546b05d8449d0583709475.jpg

    http://tattoo-journal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Face-Tattoo-46-650x650.jpg

    https://lillyslaughterswampwindshome.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/tumblr_ox6l6a2wh71shl2c7o1_1280.jpg

    https://66.media.tumblr.com/891b90f56b62610386677abec06a09c1/tumblr_obyjcnK77a1szucd3o1_1280.jpg

    Not with a thousand condoms.

    Good luck getting sleep tonight…

    • Agree: Jay Fink
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Not with a thousand condoms.
     
    You’d have to cover your eyes as well.
    , @RSDB

    Not with a thousand condoms.
     
    A post-apocalyptic currency I hadn't thought of.
  79. @nebulafox
    Not with a thousand condoms.

    Good luck getting sleep tonight...

    Not with a thousand condoms.

    You’d have to cover your eyes as well.

  80. @Brás Cubas
    I have reread Intelligent Dasein's comment (and the article you linked to) and apparently I.D. has got some things wrong, so I finally agree with you on this. I.D.'s incorrect notion I am referring to is that nonspecific immunity is correlated with previous exposure, which, after your explanation and the one in the link you provided, I understand to be incorrect.

    I am a slow learner, so thanks for the patience.

    No sir, that is not what I said.

    I said that “herd immunity” is a nebulous concept. I never said anything about non-specific immunity being correlated with previous exposure. I said that when you take the practical step of factoring in those people who will not even require an antibody response to survive their brush with Covid-19, the number of which is necessarily greater than those with specific immunity, then “herd immunity” (nebulous sense) is a de facto reality.

    This explains why other respiratory infections such as common colds and seasonal influenza run their course through the population and dwindle away without ever achieving the exposure levels required for “herd immunity” in the seropositive sense.

    Not only is this not wrong, it is not even contraversial.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    You keep trying to weasel out of what you wrote when it dawns on you that you were wrong. You wrote:

    Most people have already been exposed to this virus and they are immune not in the sense that they’ve developed antibodies but in the sense they will neither get sick nor develop antibodies upon any subsequent exposure.
     
    If you don’t have antibodies to the virus in question, and your nonspecific immunity resisted it, e.g. you swallowed the virus and your stomach acid broke it down, it does not mean you “will neither get sick nor develop antibodies upon any subsequent exposure” if that exposure is inhalation into your lungs. Nonspecific immunity - physical and chemical barriers, fever, inflammation, etc. - has no immunological memory and it won’t immunize you against subsequent exposures.

    And there is no evidence that “most people have already been exposed to this virus.”
    , @Brás Cubas
    Well, the sentence I refer to is the following:

    Most people have already been exposed to this virus and they are immune not in the sense that they’ve developed antibodies but in the sense they will neither get sick nor develop antibodies upon any subsequent exposure.
     
    You appear to imply that those people may get sick on the first exposure and not on subsequent ones. If that is not what you meant, then I misinterpreted it, and apologize. In any case, as Twinkie remarked, that kind of immune reaction is not an absolute given. I imagine it depends one several factors, i.e. the weather, the respective viral loads in each infection, the person's fitness at each time of infection, and so on.

    In any case, I am learning these things now, so have no preconceived ideas one way or the other.

  81. @res
    That's a fair response. On reflection, I think I overstated my point ("completely upended"). But I still think I have a valid point. There has definitely been some rearrangement of who thinks who is worth listening to concerning COVID-19 vs. other topics. Or in less extreme fashion, who agrees with whom.

    I think we actually provide a decent example of the latter form. The two of us appear to be on the same page for most topics, but my sense is I tend more towards a "COVID-19 is serious, but the level of lockdown in the US is unjustified except for a select few areas (e.g. NYC)" view while I think you tend more towards a "lockdowns are justified" view. Please feel free to clarify if I have misread you.

    But I do tend to just go along with the measures I think have a decent cost/benefit (or which don't inconvenience me TOO much) even if I think they are overkill. So I have my face covering which I wear when I am out and about near people. The interesting thing is I have gotten more positive comments for not wearing a mask and negative comments for wearing a mask (etc.) than the reverse.

    And I was scrupulous about wearing a mask when I was sick and their use was being discouraged by the CDC.

    The two of us appear to be on the same page for most topics, but my sense is I tend more towards a “COVID-19 is serious, but the level of lockdown in the US is unjustified except for a select few areas (e.g. NYC)” view while I think you tend more towards a “lockdowns are justified” view.

    For me, the lockdown, as such, does not exist in isolation – there are many variables under consideration in context. I elaborated on some of these when I posted that video about a young man’s experienced of getting tested/quarantined in South Korea. If you have a conscientious, compliant, hygienic, and heathy (non-obese) population, the level of restrictions is going to be very different than that needed with a population with different characteristics. The timing of intervention also matters a great deal with a phenomenon that is potentially exponential in nature.

    You and I may differ on some specifics or trade off levels, but we derive our conclusions from the same source – facts and data. People such as Intelligent Dasein formulated their views weeks ago largely based on ideologies for lack of a better term and are engaging in mental gymnastics, selective quotes of numbers, and made-up theories to make the emerging data fit their priors, rather than admitting that they were wrong (instead he insists to-date that he was right about “everything”).

    You might remember (or not) that before the pandemic picked up steam in Italy and the U.S., I speculated that this was probably going to be somewhere between SARS and a bad flu in deadliness. I mildly disparaged both the ideas on Unz that this was going to only kill East Asians (Lance Weston) and that it was going to kill millions (Anatoly Karlin). Once I saw what happened in Italy and saw the data from China, however, I realized this was going to be more dangerous than influenza and became more supportive of restrictive measures.

    It’s for the same reason that I am a fan of A.E. When he is wrong or sees contrary data, he notes it (and keeps his old entries online for the record, rather than erasing it) and informs all of where he was off. That’s an intellectually honest human being whose words are worth reading. That’s not someone who is suffering from ego-poisoning or insecurity or neglected genius fantasy that he has to be right about everything all the time.

    • Agree: Yahya K.
    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @res

    That’s an intellectually honest human being whose words are worth reading.
     
    Well said! It is interesting to observe the difference between people who value things like "have the courage of their convictions" and those who value "willingness to update their views when proven wrong."

    To be clear, I am trying to propose those as extremes of a continuum with the optimal being somewhere between. One doesn't want to be the reed blowing in the wind like the "person who believes whatever they were told last" any more than one wants to be the person who refuses to ever admit they were wrong even when it is demonstrated in decisive fashion.
  82. @Intelligent Dasein
    No sir, that is not what I said.

    I said that "herd immunity" is a nebulous concept. I never said anything about non-specific immunity being correlated with previous exposure. I said that when you take the practical step of factoring in those people who will not even require an antibody response to survive their brush with Covid-19, the number of which is necessarily greater than those with specific immunity, then "herd immunity" (nebulous sense) is a de facto reality.

    This explains why other respiratory infections such as common colds and seasonal influenza run their course through the population and dwindle away without ever achieving the exposure levels required for "herd immunity" in the seropositive sense.

    Not only is this not wrong, it is not even contraversial.

    You keep trying to weasel out of what you wrote when it dawns on you that you were wrong. You wrote:

    Most people have already been exposed to this virus and they are immune not in the sense that they’ve developed antibodies but in the sense they will neither get sick nor develop antibodies upon any subsequent exposure.

    If you don’t have antibodies to the virus in question, and your nonspecific immunity resisted it, e.g. you swallowed the virus and your stomach acid broke it down, it does not mean you “will neither get sick nor develop antibodies upon any subsequent exposure” if that exposure is inhalation into your lungs. Nonspecific immunity – physical and chemical barriers, fever, inflammation, etc. – has no immunological memory and it won’t immunize you against subsequent exposures.

    And there is no evidence that “most people have already been exposed to this virus.”

  83. @Twinkie

    The two of us appear to be on the same page for most topics, but my sense is I tend more towards a “COVID-19 is serious, but the level of lockdown in the US is unjustified except for a select few areas (e.g. NYC)” view while I think you tend more towards a “lockdowns are justified” view.
     
    For me, the lockdown, as such, does not exist in isolation - there are many variables under consideration in context. I elaborated on some of these when I posted that video about a young man’s experienced of getting tested/quarantined in South Korea. If you have a conscientious, compliant, hygienic, and heathy (non-obese) population, the level of restrictions is going to be very different than that needed with a population with different characteristics. The timing of intervention also matters a great deal with a phenomenon that is potentially exponential in nature.

    You and I may differ on some specifics or trade off levels, but we derive our conclusions from the same source - facts and data. People such as Intelligent Dasein formulated their views weeks ago largely based on ideologies for lack of a better term and are engaging in mental gymnastics, selective quotes of numbers, and made-up theories to make the emerging data fit their priors, rather than admitting that they were wrong (instead he insists to-date that he was right about “everything”).

    You might remember (or not) that before the pandemic picked up steam in Italy and the U.S., I speculated that this was probably going to be somewhere between SARS and a bad flu in deadliness. I mildly disparaged both the ideas on Unz that this was going to only kill East Asians (Lance Weston) and that it was going to kill millions (Anatoly Karlin). Once I saw what happened in Italy and saw the data from China, however, I realized this was going to be more dangerous than influenza and became more supportive of restrictive measures.

    It’s for the same reason that I am a fan of A.E. When he is wrong or sees contrary data, he notes it (and keeps his old entries online for the record, rather than erasing it) and informs all of where he was off. That’s an intellectually honest human being whose words are worth reading. That’s not someone who is suffering from ego-poisoning or insecurity or neglected genius fantasy that he has to be right about everything all the time.

    That’s an intellectually honest human being whose words are worth reading.

    Well said! It is interesting to observe the difference between people who value things like “have the courage of their convictions” and those who value “willingness to update their views when proven wrong.”

    To be clear, I am trying to propose those as extremes of a continuum with the optimal being somewhere between. One doesn’t want to be the reed blowing in the wind like the “person who believes whatever they were told last” any more than one wants to be the person who refuses to ever admit they were wrong even when it is demonstrated in decisive fashion.

    • Agree: Yahya K.
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    One doesn’t want to be the reed blowing in the wind like the “person who believes whatever they were told last” any more than one wants to be the person who refuses to ever admit they were wrong even when it is demonstrated in decisive fashion.
     
    Agree. But which do you think is more common, at least on this blog?

    The sad fact is, most people rationalize what they see to justify their priors than integrate the former to update their mental construct.
  84. @Twinkie

    This ought to just about settle the matter. The latest preliminary reports suggest that 21% of New York City dwellers are seropositive for coronavirus antibodies. That alone brings the IFR down to about 0.5%.
     
    You are intellectually dishonest. The full quote:

    In New York City, 21 percent of people had antibodies for coronavirus, compared to 3.6 percent in upstate New York, 16.7 percent in Long Island and 11.7 percent in the Westchester/Rockland area.
     
    If this is your definition of “herd immunity,” you don’t know what that means.

    Over 10,000 people died in NYC in a span of a few weeks, a fatality rate of 120 per 100,000 people in as many weeks. NYC hospitals ICUs were like war zones. All that suffering and only 20% of the population were infected.

    However, as I’ve been saying and as others are starting to pick up on, a seropositive result is a proxy only for specific immunity. But there is also non-specific immunity, i.e. the people who were exposed to the virus but whose immune systems simply destroy it without needing to develop an antibody response. These people are not counted by antibody tests but they must comprise some additive component.
     
    Stop making things up. Here is a good summary of non-specific vs. specific immunity. Non-specific immunity is not what you think it is: https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-specific-and-vs-nonspecific-immunity/

    Most people have already been exposed to this virus and they are immune not in the sense that they’ve developed antibodies but in the sense they will neither get sick nor develop antibodies upon any subsequent exposure. Their innate immune system will handle corona just fine.
     
    From the same link: “ Most importantly, non-specific immunity does not form a defensive memory while specific immunity does.”

    I have no idea what non-specifuc immunity is. You must admit though, whether the infection rate is 3.6% or 21%, that is a huge number of infected.

    It is looking more and more that the CFR of this disease is nothing close to the insane figure of 5-6% that was originally paraded by the press.

    Especially considering that, in addition undercounting the infected, we are almost certainly overcounting the victims. This just isn’t the disaster that was advertised.

    In a few weeks the same public servants who are urging continued caution in reopening (as a form of personal ass covering) are going to be begging businesses to reopen at all. Begging.

    Right now, with the numbers I see, this looks like one of the worst series of public policy decisions ever. We have 23% unemployment, and there are invisible costs as well. Consider the regime uncertainty about starting a business, moving forward.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    You must admit though, whether the infection rate is 3.6% or 21%, that is a huge number of infected.
     
    Yes, it is. The dangerous thing about Covid-19 is that it appears to be both more infectious AND deadly than influenza.

    This just isn’t the disaster that was advertised.
     
    Have you seen what the streets look like in major cities? Dramatically fewer person-to-person interactions = dramatically fewer infections and deaths. We also learned that our intensive care system is, at least temporarily, more robust than appeared in the past.

    In a few weeks the same public servants who are urging continued caution in reopening (as a form of personal ass covering) are going to be begging businesses to reopen at all. Begging.
     
    People seem not to understand that demand for services would have fallen even absent government restrictions. How would you like to have a situation where the economy still took a major hit (only marginally better off than what we have) and we ended up having major pandemic outbreaks across the whole country anyway thanks to a minority of superspreaders?

    It’s easy to Monday-morning quarterback after the phenomenon is better understood and there is more data. Just a few weeks ago, pretty much everyone was in the dark. There are always things that could have been done better, so I cut the policy makers a little slack for not knowing the future.
  85. @Lowe
    I have no idea what non-specifuc immunity is. You must admit though, whether the infection rate is 3.6% or 21%, that is a huge number of infected.

    It is looking more and more that the CFR of this disease is nothing close to the insane figure of 5-6% that was originally paraded by the press.

    Especially considering that, in addition undercounting the infected, we are almost certainly overcounting the victims. This just isn't the disaster that was advertised.

    In a few weeks the same public servants who are urging continued caution in reopening (as a form of personal ass covering) are going to be begging businesses to reopen at all. Begging.

    Right now, with the numbers I see, this looks like one of the worst series of public policy decisions ever. We have 23% unemployment, and there are invisible costs as well. Consider the regime uncertainty about starting a business, moving forward.

    You must admit though, whether the infection rate is 3.6% or 21%, that is a huge number of infected.

    Yes, it is. The dangerous thing about Covid-19 is that it appears to be both more infectious AND deadly than influenza.

    This just isn’t the disaster that was advertised.

    Have you seen what the streets look like in major cities? Dramatically fewer person-to-person interactions = dramatically fewer infections and deaths. We also learned that our intensive care system is, at least temporarily, more robust than appeared in the past.

    In a few weeks the same public servants who are urging continued caution in reopening (as a form of personal ass covering) are going to be begging businesses to reopen at all. Begging.

    People seem not to understand that demand for services would have fallen even absent government restrictions. How would you like to have a situation where the economy still took a major hit (only marginally better off than what we have) and we ended up having major pandemic outbreaks across the whole country anyway thanks to a minority of superspreaders?

    It’s easy to Monday-morning quarterback after the phenomenon is better understood and there is more data. Just a few weeks ago, pretty much everyone was in the dark. There are always things that could have been done better, so I cut the policy makers a little slack for not knowing the future.

    • Replies: @Lowe
    If all the actions we have taken, killing a large segment of economic activity, were necessary... then why aren't an ungodly number of Swedes dead?

    Why are the antibody measurements showing huge numbers of infected? Far, far larger than what was thought originally? If anything like 3-20% of people are infected, what do you think the infection rate at this point would have been without the shutdown? 60%?

    Weeks ago, in mid-March when they began shutting down the major cities, I thought "They better be sure about this."
    Because you don't get to take back the businesses you close, the jobs you destroy, the lives you ruin.

    They were not sure. They leapt without looking, and unfortunately we're all chained to them at the ankle.
  86. @res

    That’s an intellectually honest human being whose words are worth reading.
     
    Well said! It is interesting to observe the difference between people who value things like "have the courage of their convictions" and those who value "willingness to update their views when proven wrong."

    To be clear, I am trying to propose those as extremes of a continuum with the optimal being somewhere between. One doesn't want to be the reed blowing in the wind like the "person who believes whatever they were told last" any more than one wants to be the person who refuses to ever admit they were wrong even when it is demonstrated in decisive fashion.

    One doesn’t want to be the reed blowing in the wind like the “person who believes whatever they were told last” any more than one wants to be the person who refuses to ever admit they were wrong even when it is demonstrated in decisive fashion.

    Agree. But which do you think is more common, at least on this blog?

    The sad fact is, most people rationalize what they see to justify their priors than integrate the former to update their mental construct.

    • Replies: @res

    Agree. But which do you think is more common, at least on this blog?
     
    Indeed. I like to think that is because one has to be strong willed (obstinate even) to have opinions so divergent from the popular views on the topics we discuss. But there are less charitable explanations ; )

    I feel like I can be a bit too reed like (blowing around the middle between extremes) because I (try to) make an effort to understand where people are coming from and that can result in small movements in my priors too easily sometimes. That is why I am explicit about the continuum. To use a medical analogy, "lower your blood pressure" is usually good medical advice, but in reality that is not always true. I am weird in that I often seem to be in the category that would be ill served by taking the simplistic recommendations for the general public.

    The sad fact is, most people rationalize what they see to justify their priors than integrate the former to update their mental construct.
     
    All too true.
  87. OT: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/world/asia/coronavirus-face-masks-hong-kong.html

    HONG KONG — When word came that a dangerous new virus was killing people in mainland China, the people of Hong Kong sprang into action. Virtually overnight, the schools were closed, posters appeared around the city reminding residents to wash their hands, and seemingly everyone on the street was wearing a face mask.

    While the West debated the efficacy of masks, Hong Kong residents, stung by the deadly SARS outbreak 17 years ago, put their trust in them. In the months since the pandemic began on its doorstep, only four people in Hong Kong, a city of 7.5 million, have died from Covid-19.

    But behind the ubiquitous masks is a truth that not everyone here knows. Millions of Hong Kong’s surgical masks are produced by prisoners, some of whom have been working late at night for mere pennies since the outbreak hit.

    The medium-security Lo Wu prison, located near the mainland border, has been churning out masks 24 hours a day since February, when the Hong Kong government ramped up production to supply the city’s army of medical, public health and sanitation workers.

    Working around the clock, inmates, along with retired and off-duty correction officers volunteering their time, now produce 2.5 million masks per month, up from 1.1 million before the outbreak.

  88. @Twinkie

    You must admit though, whether the infection rate is 3.6% or 21%, that is a huge number of infected.
     
    Yes, it is. The dangerous thing about Covid-19 is that it appears to be both more infectious AND deadly than influenza.

    This just isn’t the disaster that was advertised.
     
    Have you seen what the streets look like in major cities? Dramatically fewer person-to-person interactions = dramatically fewer infections and deaths. We also learned that our intensive care system is, at least temporarily, more robust than appeared in the past.

    In a few weeks the same public servants who are urging continued caution in reopening (as a form of personal ass covering) are going to be begging businesses to reopen at all. Begging.
     
    People seem not to understand that demand for services would have fallen even absent government restrictions. How would you like to have a situation where the economy still took a major hit (only marginally better off than what we have) and we ended up having major pandemic outbreaks across the whole country anyway thanks to a minority of superspreaders?

    It’s easy to Monday-morning quarterback after the phenomenon is better understood and there is more data. Just a few weeks ago, pretty much everyone was in the dark. There are always things that could have been done better, so I cut the policy makers a little slack for not knowing the future.

    If all the actions we have taken, killing a large segment of economic activity, were necessary… then why aren’t an ungodly number of Swedes dead?

    Why are the antibody measurements showing huge numbers of infected? Far, far larger than what was thought originally? If anything like 3-20% of people are infected, what do you think the infection rate at this point would have been without the shutdown? 60%?

    Weeks ago, in mid-March when they began shutting down the major cities, I thought “They better be sure about this.”
    Because you don’t get to take back the businesses you close, the jobs you destroy, the lives you ruin.

    They were not sure. They leapt without looking, and unfortunately we’re all chained to them at the ankle.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Because you don’t get to take back the businesses you close, the jobs you destroy, the lives you ruin.
     
    Yep. We're in uncharted waters. Nobody knows if the economy is capable of surviving the lockdowns.

    I'm not saying that economies actually are going to collapse. But the possibility needs to be considered. The longer the lockdowns stay in force the greater the chances of economic collapse and as second Great Depression that might last for years. And might lead to political chaos. Like I say, it might not happen. But it's a genuine risk.

    And remember, the politicians we'll be relying on to get the economy up and running again are the same clowns who spectacularly mishandled the virus crisis.
  89. anon[136] • Disclaimer says:

    The PPP program is already shaping up to be a giant barrel of government pork that isn’t helping small business all that much, but….

    https://www.inquirer.com/business/autonation-ppp-sba-loans-shake-shack-small-business-20200424.html

    AutoNation, a Fortune 500 company that runs a network of auto sellers, received nearly $95 million in federal small business funds, according to internal company documents and two company employees.

    How did AutoNation become a “small business”?

    In response to questions from The Washington Post, AutoNation executive vice president Marc Cannon said that the company’s board voted Thursday to return the funds even though the company had acquired them under the rules created by Congress and intended to use the money only to pay employees.

    While meeting payroll is the primary intent of the PPP, there’s no legit way for a company with thousands of employees to meet the numeric limit of “small bidness”.

    The $95 million, spread across dozens of locations, is more than triple the amount any company is known to have received through the fund, called the Paycheck Protection Program. The $349 billion small business loan program ran out of money last week, leaving thousands of small businesses empty handed.

    What AutoNation apparently did was have many subdivisions file applications for PPP money often with small local banks, so that each location met the “small business” limits. Usually this is called a form of fraud. However there is a ‘safe harbor giveback’ provision that allows grifters to hand their cash back with no questions by early May.

    Something else fed Ruth’s Chris and Potbelly, although Ruth’s Chris is likewise handing its money back.

    https://nypost.com/2020/04/17/potbellys-ruths-chris-snag-coronavirus-loans-meant-for-small-business/

  90. @Rich
    Reagan's bad moves are always excused as being actions he was forced to do. Judging by what he actually did in office, he was just another left leaning Rockefeller Republican. I can't think of too many conservative accomplishments during his administration, but I do see a whole bunch of what were once considered left-wing accomplishments. Higher taxes, deficit spending, affirmative action, government expansion. He fooled a lot of people. But he gave a good speech.

    It was really weird when Reagan was treated like a brand name on the GOP debate platform. The moderator asked a question like, are you a fan of Reagan? And each of them was trying to outdo the other in answering yes. Celebrity endorsement is a weird enough phenomenon as it is without flipping it around and endorsing the celebrity, and in this case a dead one.

    • Replies: @newrouter
    >It was really weird when Reagan was treated like a brand name on the GOP debate platform.<

    I ma guess your age is 35 or less.

  91. America’s tepid response

    Constitutional response.

    at the federal level

    The states and the feds aren’t “levels”.

    has left states with a lot of discretion

    Which is the whole point of federalism.

  92. @Intelligent Dasein
    No sir, that is not what I said.

    I said that "herd immunity" is a nebulous concept. I never said anything about non-specific immunity being correlated with previous exposure. I said that when you take the practical step of factoring in those people who will not even require an antibody response to survive their brush with Covid-19, the number of which is necessarily greater than those with specific immunity, then "herd immunity" (nebulous sense) is a de facto reality.

    This explains why other respiratory infections such as common colds and seasonal influenza run their course through the population and dwindle away without ever achieving the exposure levels required for "herd immunity" in the seropositive sense.

    Not only is this not wrong, it is not even contraversial.

    Well, the sentence I refer to is the following:

    Most people have already been exposed to this virus and they are immune not in the sense that they’ve developed antibodies but in the sense they will neither get sick nor develop antibodies upon any subsequent exposure.

    You appear to imply that those people may get sick on the first exposure and not on subsequent ones. If that is not what you meant, then I misinterpreted it, and apologize. In any case, as Twinkie remarked, that kind of immune reaction is not an absolute given. I imagine it depends one several factors, i.e. the weather, the respective viral loads in each infection, the person’s fitness at each time of infection, and so on.

    In any case, I am learning these things now, so have no preconceived ideas one way or the other.

  93. @nebulafox
    Not with a thousand condoms.

    Good luck getting sleep tonight...

    Not with a thousand condoms.

    A post-apocalyptic currency I hadn’t thought of.

  94. @Twinkie

    One doesn’t want to be the reed blowing in the wind like the “person who believes whatever they were told last” any more than one wants to be the person who refuses to ever admit they were wrong even when it is demonstrated in decisive fashion.
     
    Agree. But which do you think is more common, at least on this blog?

    The sad fact is, most people rationalize what they see to justify their priors than integrate the former to update their mental construct.

    Agree. But which do you think is more common, at least on this blog?

    Indeed. I like to think that is because one has to be strong willed (obstinate even) to have opinions so divergent from the popular views on the topics we discuss. But there are less charitable explanations ; )

    I feel like I can be a bit too reed like (blowing around the middle between extremes) because I (try to) make an effort to understand where people are coming from and that can result in small movements in my priors too easily sometimes. That is why I am explicit about the continuum. To use a medical analogy, “lower your blood pressure” is usually good medical advice, but in reality that is not always true. I am weird in that I often seem to be in the category that would be ill served by taking the simplistic recommendations for the general public.

    The sad fact is, most people rationalize what they see to justify their priors than integrate the former to update their mental construct.

    All too true.

  95. @songbird

    Every municipality, every pension fund, every unemployment program, every state insurance program in the country is financially insolvent.
     
    A conspiracist might believe that the shutdown is all about forcing a reckoning on pensions.

    Never let a crisis go to waste, right?

    • Agree: songbird
  96. @songbird
    It was really weird when Reagan was treated like a brand name on the GOP debate platform. The moderator asked a question like, are you a fan of Reagan? And each of them was trying to outdo the other in answering yes. Celebrity endorsement is a weird enough phenomenon as it is without flipping it around and endorsing the celebrity, and in this case a dead one.

    >It was really weird when Reagan was treated like a brand name on the GOP debate platform.<

    I ma guess your age is 35 or less.

    • Replies: @songbird
    I understand Reagan was a popular figure, especially in contrast to Jimmy Carter, but what I'm saying is I don't think it is a meaningful statement for a politician to state, "I liked X president." (especially if he was a popular president, who won in a landslide)

    Banks once built elaborate structures to help show that they were not fly-by-night operations - that they would not take the money and run. The trouble with politicians is that they don't have something similar. The closest thing is a voting record, but that's often very complicated and nuanced, as bills are complicated, and it doesn't work as a great differentiator as voting is often along party lines, and even not a great indicator of the positions that they actually hold and will push in the future.
  97. @Dr. Doom
    We are at the "let someone else do it stage" of socialism. No one wants to do it themselves.
    Some refer to it as apathy, but actually its a lack of civic duty and responsibility.

    This motley crew of diverse nobodies laughingly referred to as "government" is no longer up to the task of governing. "Diversity" is chaotic and cannot achieve order.

    This next election is probably the last. A dictator will inevitably rise.

    Only a dictator can govern this mess now. Democracy is always followed by dictators.

    You called?

  98. @Lowe
    If all the actions we have taken, killing a large segment of economic activity, were necessary... then why aren't an ungodly number of Swedes dead?

    Why are the antibody measurements showing huge numbers of infected? Far, far larger than what was thought originally? If anything like 3-20% of people are infected, what do you think the infection rate at this point would have been without the shutdown? 60%?

    Weeks ago, in mid-March when they began shutting down the major cities, I thought "They better be sure about this."
    Because you don't get to take back the businesses you close, the jobs you destroy, the lives you ruin.

    They were not sure. They leapt without looking, and unfortunately we're all chained to them at the ankle.

    Because you don’t get to take back the businesses you close, the jobs you destroy, the lives you ruin.

    Yep. We’re in uncharted waters. Nobody knows if the economy is capable of surviving the lockdowns.

    I’m not saying that economies actually are going to collapse. But the possibility needs to be considered. The longer the lockdowns stay in force the greater the chances of economic collapse and as second Great Depression that might last for years. And might lead to political chaos. Like I say, it might not happen. But it’s a genuine risk.

    And remember, the politicians we’ll be relying on to get the economy up and running again are the same clowns who spectacularly mishandled the virus crisis.

    • Agree: Yahya K.
  99. @newrouter
    >It was really weird when Reagan was treated like a brand name on the GOP debate platform.<

    I ma guess your age is 35 or less.

    I understand Reagan was a popular figure, especially in contrast to Jimmy Carter, but what I’m saying is I don’t think it is a meaningful statement for a politician to state, “I liked X president.” (especially if he was a popular president, who won in a landslide)

    Banks once built elaborate structures to help show that they were not fly-by-night operations – that they would not take the money and run. The trouble with politicians is that they don’t have something similar. The closest thing is a voting record, but that’s often very complicated and nuanced, as bills are complicated, and it doesn’t work as a great differentiator as voting is often along party lines, and even not a great indicator of the positions that they actually hold and will push in the future.

  100. considering how the race percentage is not that different, it suggests that the biggest difference was between white democrats and white republicans

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone

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