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Judaism as Race, Religion, and Nationality?
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President Trump’s bizarre executive order first reported as identifying Judaism as a race and a nationality in addition to a religion for the purpose of providing legal privilege protection raised a lot of eyebrows. It looks like the initial reports were sensationalized and that the order won’t change much. We’ll see.

According to a recent YouGov poll, most Americans, some 80%, consider Judaism a religion while 24% consider it a race and only 18% consider it a nationality. There’s some utility in being able to calibrate the definition according to the circumstance, so maybe the ambiguity is more of a feature than a bug.

There’s also the distinction between Judaism and Jewishness. That the former is generally perceived to refer specifically to a religious identity does not mean the latter is perceived in the same way. Judaism exists under the umbrella of Jewishness, but there can be Jewishness without Judaism. The following table shows the percentages of people who “know God exists” (from 2010 onward for contemporary relevance) by self-identified affiliation:

Only one-quarter of self-identified Jews firmly believe in God. They are only modestly more theistic than the irreligious are, and much less theistic than adherents of the other two Abrahamic traditions. That Judaism is neither proselytic nor closed to conversion adds another wrinkle to things.

The survey also finds that a vast majority of Jews, 95%, racially identify as white. This makes Judaism the whitest ‘religion’ in the US. Referring to Judaism as a distinct race doesn’t mesh well with the contemporary understanding of the term. Should Stephen Miller check “two or more races” on his Census form next year?

Referring to Judaism as a separate nationality is risible, though it is hilarious for all the squirming it induces. It’s doubly funny that Jews in America are putatively being identified as belonging to a nationality other than American as a means of protecting them from anti-Semitic allegations of dual loyalty!

Classifying Ashkenazi Jewishness as a white ethnicity makes the most sense to this gentile. I’m interested in being instructed on the correct way to conceptualize it, particularly with regards to where it fits into the categories of religion, race, and ethnicity.

GSS variables used: RELIG(1-4,9), GOD(6), YEAR(2010-2018), RACECEN1

 
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  1. I’m under the impression that there are relatively more Jewish mulattoes than one would expect, when compared to white Christians marrying blacks. Is it a true observation? And if so, is it because Jews are more urban, or some other reason?

    As to classification, the strategic ideal would be that Jews would be treated as their own group separate from whites, so they’ll be hurt by affirmative action, instead of championing it. Though I realize that might not be politically possible.

    • Agree: Some Guy
    • Replies: @Rosie

    As to classification, the strategic ideal would be that Jews would be treated as their own group separate from whites, so they’ll be hurt by affirmative action, instead of championing it.
     
    This. They look huwite to me, so if they want to be White, I'm OK with that. In the other hand, I'm OK with them retaining their separate identity.

    What I'm not OK with is them playing both sides. That is the source of all the mischief.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    Indeed. If white Jews were evaluated separately from white gentiles for consideration of entry into elite institutions, they'd be hurt even more than Asians are. Instead, it is mostly white gentiles (and Asians) who pay the affirmative action price.
  2. No one should get too worked up over the specifics. This is merely step #1 in the long game to devastate the current, anti-constitutional, SJW courts.

    The end game that the Trump administration is going for is to make 100% of the population fit in a ‘protected’ category. When everyone is a minority by law, no minority can be discriminated against. The result is… Gasp…

    Equality Under the Law

    Shocking. I know. But you have to neuter the SJW tyrants in the most effective way possible.

    MERRY CHRISTMAS 🎄

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "This is merely step #1 in the long game to devastate the current, anti-constitutional, SJW courts."

    Trump doesn't think of the "long game" in those terms.
  3. Certain phenomena do not easily lend themselves to being put into sharp and clear categories like scientific types like to do.

    Generally, these scientific types simply ignore these kinds of fuzzy phenomena, or more commonly, pretend they don’t exist.

    Unfortunately, Jews are just a bit too visible to ignore or pretend they don’t exist, leading to much angst and hand wringing among the sciency types as their usual way of thinking doesn’t work.

    Judaism was not created by someone sitting down and logically coming up with a set of principles – it would be more accurate to say that it grew, like a tree. It represents a different kind of order than that of science, so sharp scientific categories are not the best way to understand it. It’s more like poetry and art. It belongs to the imaginative side of things, which science isn’t good at understanding.

    Judaism generally does not exclusively choose one side on any question – it does not choose racism exclusively nor does it choose its opposite exclusively. It does not define itself exclusively by religion or exclusively by nationhood.

    The scientific way of thinking, however, is to make exclusive, one sided choices – because only that way can you get absolutely clear definitions. And science is concerned with absolute clarity.

    To understand anything about Judaism, its important to realize that a) clarity is not its overriding concern b) it rarely if ever chooses one side on any question c) one might say it rejects the binary way of thinking.

    • Replies: @Daniel.I
    To understand anything about Judaism, its important to realize that it's an instruction manual on how to cuck Whitey.
    , @joe2.5
    Right. At the end of your rant, you do not even refer to measurable, verifiable facts. All you have is some groupings, Ashkenazi, Sefardi, Romaniote, Mizrahi, etc., who have (or rather had) a communal language with some liturgical/religious ancient Hebrew borrowed words, like any language -- without any cultural commonality with each other except religion for their religious minority. Period.

    So all your talk about not judging the claim of a "Jewish ethny / nation / people" by the commonly accepted criteria of mankind at large is just that much BS. Especially your claim to be exceptional with regard to logic and to facts. Of course clarity is an absolute requirement.

    , @Audacious Epigone
    To understand anything about Judaism, its important to realize that a) clarity is not its overriding concern b) it rarely if ever chooses one side on any question c) one might say it rejects the binary way of thinking.

    The substance notwithstanding (heh!), that is lucid and concise. Thanks.

    It is easy to see how this gets uncharitably interpreted as a formula for perpetual subversion. While I wouldn't expect you to think that is fair, do you think it is understandable?

  4. there was a ruling in Louisiana in 2018 saying Jews could be considered a ‘race’ thus protected under civil rights laws

    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/judge-rules-judaism-not-race-jewish-people-can-be-targeted-ncna896806

  5. It is as an ethnicity and religion. Genetic testing companies can easily detect it. I test 99.3% Ashkenazi but I don’ t consider it my religion.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Would you identify, then, if asked, as ethnically Jewish and religiously unaffiliated?
  6. @songbird
    I'm under the impression that there are relatively more Jewish mulattoes than one would expect, when compared to white Christians marrying blacks. Is it a true observation? And if so, is it because Jews are more urban, or some other reason?

    As to classification, the strategic ideal would be that Jews would be treated as their own group separate from whites, so they'll be hurt by affirmative action, instead of championing it. Though I realize that might not be politically possible.

    As to classification, the strategic ideal would be that Jews would be treated as their own group separate from whites, so they’ll be hurt by affirmative action, instead of championing it.

    This. They look huwite to me, so if they want to be White, I’m OK with that. In the other hand, I’m OK with them retaining their separate identity.

    What I’m not OK with is them playing both sides. That is the source of all the mischief.

    • Agree: songbird
  7. Classifying Ashkenazi Jewishness as a white ethnicity makes the most sense to this gentile

    Simply saying they are a white ethnicity and closing the book on it is, I think, way too limiting conceptually and which, by its restrictiveness, misses a lot that is pretty important for the understanding of our world.

    I argued, in another recent thread, that a ‘triangular’ form of Jewish identity has now pretty fully emerged; as it is more relevant here, I will repost the highlights here:

    Any strict “religion vs. ethnicity/ancestry” binary is now obsolete for the Jews, replaced by something like a triangular identity with nodes around “religion” (the least important node), “ancestry,” and “politics” (the most important node).

    Two implications of this conceptualization of the ‘political’ as being the most important (but not the only) thing defining Jewish identity today: (1) there is plenty of room for those of partial-Ashkenazi ancestry; (2) people in, or aspiring to, positions of power now gravitate towards Judaism, either via intermarriage or conversion. I think both these things are observed/observable.

    Thus we have the evolution of the former ethnic concept of Jewishness to an emerging “ethnopolitical” concept / defacto reality.

    [MORE]

    Jews, certainly the highest-prestige subgroup in the West, arguably indeed a quasi-ruling-elite class, have an enormous pull via those who are half- and even quarter-Jewish. Take the strong Jewish identity of someone like political activist professor Tim Wise, only a quarter-Jewish by ancestry; many an MSM journalist whose work suggests a strong Jewish identity also turn out to technically have one nominal-Christian parent. It would be simply foolish to say they are not Jews. For any kind of practical purposes, they are.

    The grandchildren of two nominal-Christian recent presidents (Clinton and Trump) are being raised Jewish. It is not hard to imagine one of the Obama girls (born 1998 and 2001) marrying a Jewish man and raising their children Jewish, too. (Kamala Harris did, but too late to have children of her own.)

    There is a strong prospect (inevitability) that the ancestral-stock will shift somewhat, but the, say, “60%-Ashkenazi, 25%-nonAshkenaziEuropean, 15% Other*” future Jewish ancestral stock will remain committed Jews, in large part because of the enormous prestige they get from their membership in the club, almost a sort of aristocracy by the present.

    * – Cf. Amy Chua’s daughters.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Will secular, one-quarter Jews remain the predominant image of Jewishness in the American mind a generation down the road, when fully Jewish orthodox comprise half the country's Jewish population?
  8. Speaking of Jews, it is interesting that Ron Unz did not make the Top 10 list of Jews who are working from within to turn WN into controlled opposition :

    https://christiansfortruth.com/jews-are-leading-the-alt-right-white-nationalist-movements/

    RUnzie Baby is not even in the Top 10!

  9. And keep in mind… Globo-Homomania is Proxy wing of Jewish Power.

    Globo-Homo desecrates Christianity by conflating god with sodomy, but evil America punishes the man who stood up against this sickness. There is no greater vandalism than desecrating a church with globo-homo symbols. But the vandals are now the protected class, while who stand for true faith are persecuted. Welcome to Jewish-run USA. Bend over to your master.

  10. 80% of Americans consider Judaism to be a religion yet only 26% of Jews firmly believe in God. Ironic, isn’t it?

    I suppose the 80% are right in a sense: Judaism is a religion, just not one that anybody believes anymore.

    Yet this was the only thing keeping Jews distinct as a group. Without their religion they will simply fade away into the general population. I venture that, with numbers like these, we have pretty much seen the last of Judaism as an historically significant force in the West.

    A corollary is that it cannot be Jews who are causing all the problems, and those who keep bitching about them as if that were the case need to critically reexamine what’s going on.

    • Agree: Kratoklastes
    • Replies: @Hail

    Without their religion [the Jews] will simply fade away into the general population.
     
    They have politics. They have their resent-day position of great social-cultural-political prestige in the West that serves the purpose.

    They also have religious-like replacement narratives. (I am thinking especially of a particularly big one from the 1930s–1940s.)

    It is not a wild theory to suggest the 'political' has at-least-partially replaced the formal, old-style 'religious' in this case (among others).

    , @AaronB
    Expressions of belief tend to be culturally dictated - sort of like the surveys of happiness. Secular educated Jews may talk less of God because it isn't sophisticated to do so, but actually be more religious in sensibility and outlook than people from communities where one is merely conforming to expectations by expressing belief in God.

    From my experience, many atheist Jews tend to feel an irrational connection to the supernatural in Judaism and a deep connection to its tradition and community. And I've known many Protestants who say they believe in God but who were really hardcore materialists.

    These opinion surveys should be used cautiously in general, but the more important point is to look beneath facades - to see the "real beneath the real", a wonderful phrase I encountered today on Morris Berman's blog.

    A few more phenomena - many of the best and brightest among the "modern orthodox" - religious Jews who tend to be modern professionals, doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc - are immigrating to Israel or joining the mystical Hasidic sect, as they crave a more intense Jewish experience. This group will probably shrink in America.

    , @songbird

    I venture that, with numbers like these, we have pretty much seen the last of Judaism as an historically significant force in the West.
     
    This I doubt. One reason is that Jews have diverse fertility patterns. The Orthodox, I believe, have high TFR.
    , @Kratoklastes

    Judaism is a religion, just not one that anybody believes anymore.
     
    Ilan Pappe expressed this phenomenon (for a key subset of Red Sea Pedestrians):

    Most Zionists don't believe that god exists, but they do believe that he promised them Palestine.
     
    Also, there's plenty of fraud (((as usual))). A lot of 'atheist' Jews still mutilate their male children, have religious icons in their houses (e.g., a menorah), and celebrate (fictional) ethnocentric episodes of primitive brutality (e.g., Purim).

    They're 'fake-atheists' - they want unmerited social kudos from the Smart Fraction, for being smart enough to slough off primitive ahistorical nonsense. They pretend to hold Enlightenment values while privately perpetuating the primitive practices of their Blut und Rasse cult.

    It's like claiming to be atheist but going to confession, saying rosaries, and having a picture of Blonde Jesus on the wall.

  11. To be White is to European by blood and heritage and identity, whether in the mother continent or her overseas nations.

    The Jewish homeland is Israel, in western Asia. While Caucasian (like Arabs, Turks, Persians, etc) Jews are thus not White, being not European.

    Despite the admixture of European DNA in the Ashkenazi after their long exile among White nations, their identity remains separate and other to the Goyim who remain their antagonists and enemies. Jewish history is fundamentally the story of their suffering at the hands of Europeans and their survival against Europeans.

    Religious or not, they are not White. Crypsis, the game of playing “fellow White people” when it suits them and outsider victims of the eternally imminent Holocaust 2.0 when it suits them is the standard MO.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You are right. Race is not just biological. It's also social.

    Ashkenazim are Caucasoids, just like Middle Eastern people, Subcons, "White" Hispanics and Gypsies. But they are not 100% White European, and are not regarded by 100% of White Europeans as fellow White Europeans.

    In America, we practice hypodescent. If there is any confusion about one's racial identity, one must go with whichever race has the lowest status. If your DNA test says you're 99% White and 1% Black, you are Black. If you're Askenazi, you are probably half White and half Middle Eastern. So a Caucasoid for sure, but still not White. If you're Gypsy, you are probably half White and half Subcon. Also not White. If you're "White Hispanic", you probably have small amounts of Black or Indigenous DNA. Still not White.

    White is reserved for Americans who are 100% White European whose ancestors came directly to America from Europe and did not stop in other places in between.

    I don't want Colored people to feel bad about being Colored though. There's nothing wrong with being Black. I don't want Blacks to feel bad about being Black. They were born this way, and it's not their fault.
  12. @Intelligent Dasein
    80% of Americans consider Judaism to be a religion yet only 26% of Jews firmly believe in God. Ironic, isn't it?

    I suppose the 80% are right in a sense: Judaism is a religion, just not one that anybody believes anymore.

    Yet this was the only thing keeping Jews distinct as a group. Without their religion they will simply fade away into the general population. I venture that, with numbers like these, we have pretty much seen the last of Judaism as an historically significant force in the West.

    A corollary is that it cannot be Jews who are causing all the problems, and those who keep bitching about them as if that were the case need to critically reexamine what's going on.

    Without their religion [the Jews] will simply fade away into the general population.

    They have politics. They have their resent-day position of great social-cultural-political prestige in the West that serves the purpose.

    They also have religious-like replacement narratives. (I am thinking especially of a particularly big one from the 1930s–1940s.)

    It is not a wild theory to suggest the ‘political’ has at-least-partially replaced the formal, old-style ‘religious’ in this case (among others).

  13. LOOOL! Poop-colored Muzzies again! Is that just the default setting in that chart? 🤣

    Would have been interested in a Hindu column to round things out….”know gods exist”…?🤔

    Anyway – alhamdulillah for that percentage! It would have been nice to hit 90%+, but in this day and age, a B in this category is not bad…especially if we’re talking being graded on a curve.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @songbird
    I rather like AE's choice of colors. It feels right. Orange and green for the Irish flag. Blue for the Israeli flag. Red as a set aside for the least important group, to avoid giving it duel identities, as Americans associate red with the British.

    And brown for Muslims because it has good contrast. Black would clash with the font. White would clash with the background. I guess you could go with pink or purple, but these days, I wouldn't.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    Hah, I couldn't do green unless I came up with something else for Catholicism. I could've done red for Catholicism, but then what do I do for the commi atheists?! Would the black flag of ISIS have been better? I tell you, there's just no winning around here!
    , @Audacious Epigone
    The sample size for other religious traditions is too small.
  14. @Intelligent Dasein
    80% of Americans consider Judaism to be a religion yet only 26% of Jews firmly believe in God. Ironic, isn't it?

    I suppose the 80% are right in a sense: Judaism is a religion, just not one that anybody believes anymore.

    Yet this was the only thing keeping Jews distinct as a group. Without their religion they will simply fade away into the general population. I venture that, with numbers like these, we have pretty much seen the last of Judaism as an historically significant force in the West.

    A corollary is that it cannot be Jews who are causing all the problems, and those who keep bitching about them as if that were the case need to critically reexamine what's going on.

    Expressions of belief tend to be culturally dictated – sort of like the surveys of happiness. Secular educated Jews may talk less of God because it isn’t sophisticated to do so, but actually be more religious in sensibility and outlook than people from communities where one is merely conforming to expectations by expressing belief in God.

    From my experience, many atheist Jews tend to feel an irrational connection to the supernatural in Judaism and a deep connection to its tradition and community. And I’ve known many Protestants who say they believe in God but who were really hardcore materialists.

    These opinion surveys should be used cautiously in general, but the more important point is to look beneath facades – to see the “real beneath the real”, a wonderful phrase I encountered today on Morris Berman’s blog.

    A few more phenomena – many of the best and brightest among the “modern orthodox” – religious Jews who tend to be modern professionals, doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc – are immigrating to Israel or joining the mystical Hasidic sect, as they crave a more intense Jewish experience. This group will probably shrink in America.

  15. I know a lot of atheistic jews who stick with the religion because of cultural identity, unity, and certain events do spark a deep spiritual sensation.

    In my experience Ashkenazi Jews are most likely to identify with race, my roomie is an Ashkenazi jew and frequently talks about race genetics and the superiority of the Jewish people. You’d think he was a Nazi oy vey.

    • Replies: @Talha

    I know a lot of atheistic jews who stick with the religion because of cultural identity, unity, and certain events do spark a deep spiritual sensation.
     
    It's actually fairly similar to many Europeans and "Chrisitian culture" as well. Olivier Roy has done some brilliant writing on the subject:
    "Rather than an authentic religious expression, Olivier Roy sees populism as a vehicle which appropriates Christian symbols for political ends while discarding the religion’s core values. Moreover, the rise of such movements has corresponded with the continued decline of church attendance and the widespread support for policies which run contrary to Church teachings. Capitalising on the Roman Catholic Church’s lack of credibility, populists have pushed their own brand of cultural Christianity.

    From Great Britain to Hungary, populist leaders are not known for being church-goers (with the exception of Poland). The same is true for the conservative right, which is getting closer and closer to the populists (Silvio Berlusconi, Laurent Wauquiez, Boris Johnson). Most of these leaders don’t care about abortion and same-sex marriage and have not only endorsed, but often enjoy, the sexual freedom inherited from the 60s that has been so vehemently denounced by the Catholic Church, and by the Protestant evangelicals, since the encyclical letter Humanae Vitae in 1968."
    https://www.ft.com/content/22204504-dfbd-11e9-9743-db5a370481bc

    https://twitter.com/shadihamid/status/1187099745027874819

    Plenty of this phenomenon is found all over the digital pages of UNZ to any casual observer perusing the articles and comments.

    It's really the disease of the age, it seems to have hit Jews harder than anyone else...though that's not altogether surprising either - plenty saw it coming:
    " The dissonance between needing to believe and being privately unable to do so creates all sorts of private theological creativity, but also many private tensions. Religious communities are only sustainable because, of the three great balms that organized religion provides its members—community, intellectual energy, and spiritual life—the first two most often overawe the third. How have most American Jews adapted to their belief-deficit? Jacob Neusner summed it up a long time ago: The State of Israel became the new god and the Holocaust the new liturgy. This shift to a politicized form of Judaism, Rabbi Neusner warned, would not be transmissible across generations."
    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/282724/the-collapse
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jacob-Neusner

    In fact, this association with Islam and some ephemeral and idiotic brown "Muslim identity" is something that our community is trying to fight against as well:
    "In “creating” Muslim organizations and leaders and “expanding their influence,” the key goals of the Soros-linked foundations are: reframing the community as primarily a racial or ethnic identity group rather than as a religious group; emphasizing the community’s support for Democrat-friendly political issues; and weakening the community’s traditional religious teachings such as defined gender roles and the prohibition on same-sex sexual relations...In contrast, the agenda of the progressive left foundations and nonprofit groups described herein is to refashion Islam as a secular identity group centered on ethnic “brownness,” and whose moral compass is the progressive wing of the Democratic party rather than Islamic religious sources."
    https://muslimmatters.org/2017/09/20/how-the-progressive-left-wants-to-change-islam-in-america/

    "Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am - stuck in the middle..."

    Peace.

    , @SFG
    Race genetics and superiority? You try red-pilling him?
    , @Maple Curtain
    "You’d think he was a Nazi oy vey."

    The National Socialist German Workers Party and its program was a reaction to Jewish racial supremacism.

    The only reason we Whites don't refer to the Jews as they are - i.e. racial supremacists for thousands of years - is because of gaslighting by Jew media.

    The Jewish century was the century of lies and gaslighting, and that century is in overtime as we write.
  16. They’re a floor wax AND a dessert topping!

    15 comments in, and I have to be the first one to make that joke?

    Shame on the lot of you. Turn in your badges at the door.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Haha. Even I didn't see that one, GToD. Here, take it. I'm not worthy.
  17. anon[178] • Disclaimer says:

    The Reverie of the Zionist

    I know all about the war I have been in France ever since the peace. Remember what was said yesterday.
    We can think and we know that we love our country so.
    Can we believe that all Jews are these.
    Let us remember that the little bird of all is not the one that has the singing dell. It sings and it sings and a great many people say it is not pleasant. Is it likely that there is real grief. Anywhere there are beards and everywhere there are girls and all about there is a wealth of imagery.
    I saw all this to prove that Judaism should be a question of religion.
    Don’t talk about race. Race is disgusting if you don’t love your country.
    I don’t want to go to Zion.
    This is an expression of Shem.

    -Gertrude Stein
    Paris 1920

  18. @AaronB
    Certain phenomena do not easily lend themselves to being put into sharp and clear categories like scientific types like to do.

    Generally, these scientific types simply ignore these kinds of fuzzy phenomena, or more commonly, pretend they don't exist.

    Unfortunately, Jews are just a bit too visible to ignore or pretend they don't exist, leading to much angst and hand wringing among the sciency types as their usual way of thinking doesn't work.

    Judaism was not created by someone sitting down and logically coming up with a set of principles - it would be more accurate to say that it grew, like a tree. It represents a different kind of order than that of science, so sharp scientific categories are not the best way to understand it. It's more like poetry and art. It belongs to the imaginative side of things, which science isn't good at understanding.

    Judaism generally does not exclusively choose one side on any question - it does not choose racism exclusively nor does it choose its opposite exclusively. It does not define itself exclusively by religion or exclusively by nationhood.

    The scientific way of thinking, however, is to make exclusive, one sided choices - because only that way can you get absolutely clear definitions. And science is concerned with absolute clarity.

    To understand anything about Judaism, its important to realize that a) clarity is not its overriding concern b) it rarely if ever chooses one side on any question c) one might say it rejects the binary way of thinking.

    To understand anything about Judaism, its important to realize that it’s an instruction manual on how to cuck Whitey.

  19. That chart was thought provoking to me. I can’t relate to most Jews on politics, I hate neoliberalism. Yet when it comes to belief in God I am in the 76% who does not know God exists. I am not an atheist. I guess I am an agnostic. I believe there are limitless possibilities on what created us and why we are here. My guess is the truth is beyond the humans brains ability to comprehend.

    • Replies: @iffen
    My guess is the truth is beyond the humans brains ability to comprehend.

    How could that be?

    We create truth.
  20. anonymous[654] • Disclaimer says:

    Here it is:

    Judaism is a religion, although one that has many aspects of what anthropologists used to call a folkway, in a manner similar to Hinduism.

    Jews are a people. Not a religion because there are many atheistic Jews. Not a race because there are Jews of several colors. Not a nationality because they live in several nations.

    The closest analogy is something like Italian people. Someone can be considered Italian if they live in Italy, or are of Italian descent and live in the US, Argentina, etc. They are still Italian even if they are so atheist it would make their rosary-counting great-grandmother roll over. Italians have a wide range of phenotypes from the Swiss border to Sicily, so aren’t a race. And analogous to conversion, if someone immerses themselves in Italian culture, they can probably be Italian too. There are not sharp boundaries around who is Italian, but there is a clear constellation of heritage, folkways, foodways, and other markers. But no reasonable person denies that Italians are a people. Same for Jews.

    As for the executive order, it was necessary to use “nationality” because “people” is not a protected class.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Apt analogy, given that both are Meds and there is a lot of genetic overlap.
  21. @Oblivionrecurs
    I know a lot of atheistic jews who stick with the religion because of cultural identity, unity, and certain events do spark a deep spiritual sensation.

    In my experience Ashkenazi Jews are most likely to identify with race, my roomie is an Ashkenazi jew and frequently talks about race genetics and the superiority of the Jewish people. You'd think he was a Nazi oy vey.

    I know a lot of atheistic jews who stick with the religion because of cultural identity, unity, and certain events do spark a deep spiritual sensation.

    It’s actually fairly similar to many Europeans and “Chrisitian culture” as well. Olivier Roy has done some brilliant writing on the subject:
    “Rather than an authentic religious expression, Olivier Roy sees populism as a vehicle which appropriates Christian symbols for political ends while discarding the religion’s core values. Moreover, the rise of such movements has corresponded with the continued decline of church attendance and the widespread support for policies which run contrary to Church teachings. Capitalising on the Roman Catholic Church’s lack of credibility, populists have pushed their own brand of cultural Christianity.

    From Great Britain to Hungary, populist leaders are not known for being church-goers (with the exception of Poland). The same is true for the conservative right, which is getting closer and closer to the populists (Silvio Berlusconi, Laurent Wauquiez, Boris Johnson). Most of these leaders don’t care about abortion and same-sex marriage and have not only endorsed, but often enjoy, the sexual freedom inherited from the 60s that has been so vehemently denounced by the Catholic Church, and by the Protestant evangelicals, since the encyclical letter Humanae Vitae in 1968.”
    https://www.ft.com/content/22204504-dfbd-11e9-9743-db5a370481bc

    Plenty of this phenomenon is found all over the digital pages of UNZ to any casual observer perusing the articles and comments.

    It’s really the disease of the age, it seems to have hit Jews harder than anyone else…though that’s not altogether surprising either – plenty saw it coming:
    ” The dissonance between needing to believe and being privately unable to do so creates all sorts of private theological creativity, but also many private tensions. Religious communities are only sustainable because, of the three great balms that organized religion provides its members—community, intellectual energy, and spiritual life—the first two most often overawe the third. How have most American Jews adapted to their belief-deficit? Jacob Neusner summed it up a long time ago: The State of Israel became the new god and the Holocaust the new liturgy. This shift to a politicized form of Judaism, Rabbi Neusner warned, would not be transmissible across generations.”
    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/282724/the-collapse
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jacob-Neusner

    In fact, this association with Islam and some ephemeral and idiotic brown “Muslim identity” is something that our community is trying to fight against as well:
    “In “creating” Muslim organizations and leaders and “expanding their influence,” the key goals of the Soros-linked foundations are: reframing the community as primarily a racial or ethnic identity group rather than as a religious group; emphasizing the community’s support for Democrat-friendly political issues; and weakening the community’s traditional religious teachings such as defined gender roles and the prohibition on same-sex sexual relations…In contrast, the agenda of the progressive left foundations and nonprofit groups described herein is to refashion Islam as a secular identity group centered on ethnic “brownness,” and whose moral compass is the progressive wing of the Democratic party rather than Islamic religious sources.”
    https://muslimmatters.org/2017/09/20/how-the-progressive-left-wants-to-change-islam-in-america/

    “Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am – stuck in the middle…”

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
    That was interesting. It is common for conservatives to point out that U.S Muslims are strange bedfellows for Democrats because they are so different on social issues. Everyone assumes Muslims will stand firm in their beliefs and if anything Democrats will change to accommodate them. I have never even thought of the idea that Democrats could be a bad influence on the Muslim community and change some of their fundemental beliefs and values.
    , @dfordoom

    This shift to a politicized form of Judaism, Rabbi Neusner warned, would not be transmissible across generations.
     
    An interesting point.
  22. @Intelligent Dasein
    80% of Americans consider Judaism to be a religion yet only 26% of Jews firmly believe in God. Ironic, isn't it?

    I suppose the 80% are right in a sense: Judaism is a religion, just not one that anybody believes anymore.

    Yet this was the only thing keeping Jews distinct as a group. Without their religion they will simply fade away into the general population. I venture that, with numbers like these, we have pretty much seen the last of Judaism as an historically significant force in the West.

    A corollary is that it cannot be Jews who are causing all the problems, and those who keep bitching about them as if that were the case need to critically reexamine what's going on.

    I venture that, with numbers like these, we have pretty much seen the last of Judaism as an historically significant force in the West.

    This I doubt. One reason is that Jews have diverse fertility patterns. The Orthodox, I believe, have high TFR.

  23. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    They're a floor wax AND a dessert topping!

    15 comments in, and I have to be the first one to make that joke?

    Shame on the lot of you. Turn in your badges at the door.

    Haha. Even I didn’t see that one, GToD. Here, take it. I’m not worthy.

  24. I really miss the days when people didn’t want to be in categories. AA and the like put an end to that kind of thinking.

  25. @Talha
    LOOOL! Poop-colored Muzzies again! Is that just the default setting in that chart? 🤣

    Would have been interested in a Hindu column to round things out....”know gods exist”...?🤔

    Anyway - alhamdulillah for that percentage! It would have been nice to hit 90%+, but in this day and age, a B in this category is not bad...especially if we’re talking being graded on a curve.

    Peace.

    I rather like AE’s choice of colors. It feels right. Orange and green for the Irish flag. Blue for the Israeli flag. Red as a set aside for the least important group, to avoid giving it duel identities, as Americans associate red with the British.

    And brown for Muslims because it has good contrast. Black would clash with the font. White would clash with the background. I guess you could go with pink or purple, but these days, I wouldn’t.

    • Replies: @Talha
    I was being facetious, of course. Despite the random colors, I find AE's data graphs to be great pieces of information on various subjects and conversation starters. Definitely the most valuable blog in terms of serious and beneficial content on UNZ (at least in my opinion) for American citizens.

    Purple would go well with Catholics (or maybe even a gold) - both have association with Roman imperial colors - and, if I recall, Catholic bishops themselves. Personally I'd like green since it's always been the traditional Muslim color (along with white - both being those reported as what the Prophet [pbuh] was fond of)...
    http://www.ilmgate.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Madinah-dome.jpg

    But...meh...what're you going to do?

    Peace.
  26. Italian and German are nationalities. How come no one accuses German-Americans and Italian-Americans of dual loyalty?

    • Replies: @Tusk
    Germans and Italians don't receive billions of taxpayer dollars because of their lobbying groups and co-ethnic politicians.
    , @SFG
    They did in WW2.

    As Tusk says, AIPAC is the reason it happens now.
  27. @songbird
    I rather like AE's choice of colors. It feels right. Orange and green for the Irish flag. Blue for the Israeli flag. Red as a set aside for the least important group, to avoid giving it duel identities, as Americans associate red with the British.

    And brown for Muslims because it has good contrast. Black would clash with the font. White would clash with the background. I guess you could go with pink or purple, but these days, I wouldn't.

    I was being facetious, of course. Despite the random colors, I find AE’s data graphs to be great pieces of information on various subjects and conversation starters. Definitely the most valuable blog in terms of serious and beneficial content on UNZ (at least in my opinion) for American citizens.

    Purple would go well with Catholics (or maybe even a gold) – both have association with Roman imperial colors – and, if I recall, Catholic bishops themselves. Personally I’d like green since it’s always been the traditional Muslim color (along with white – both being those reported as what the Prophet [pbuh] was fond of)…

    But…meh…what’re you going to do?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    The Orange and the Green for Protestants and Catholics is too good to give up.

    Coincidentally on the Sri Lankan flag the Orange and the Green are for Tamils and Muslims.

    Blue is a Marian color which would also be good for Catholics but it's also the preferred Jewish color; black has I think also been associated with clerical parties in the past. White and gold (as in the flag of the Holy See) work too; white is the Easter color as well and I believe gold is also often used for Easter.

    Red and yellow being the colors of Geneva would probably be okay for Protestants; even blue for them too as in "true-blue Presbyterian". Red maybe also for Anglicans from the Cross of St. George.
    , @songbird
    Since I am not Muslim, I consider a lot of the associations between Islam and the color green as abstractions. The way I really think of it, it is something the Arabs living in a desert wasteland (as I conceive of it), would have really gone gaga over, any time they saw an oasis, or a stalk of grass.

    I'm reminded of the old women who told Lawrence of Arabia that his blue eyes were like holes in the back of his skull to the sky, or the utter disbelief Arabs used to have if you tried to describe a waterfall to them.

    Green really makes me think of Ireland, of the land itself, temperate, well-watered. I really like the traditional flag, a gold harp on a green field. I'm not trying to be partisan when I say it, but I hate the tricolor - it is too much like other flags, (particularly like the atheist French flag) and also has a bit of the flavor of multiculturalism. Though, some people say the best flag is the one that you can read from a long distance.

    BTW, nice dome. I am partial to copper roofs.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    Thanks very much, that's high praise.

    As is surely apparent, I work through comments chronologically, spouting off as I go. I anticipated green as the most likely suggested color and here we are, so from now on, Catholicism will get the imperial purple.
  28. Judaism is a caste, from times when aryan caste system was dominant in Europe. I was shocked when an wise askenaz told me so, but only this make sense.

  29. Anonymous[217] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dr ExCathedra
    To be White is to European by blood and heritage and identity, whether in the mother continent or her overseas nations.

    The Jewish homeland is Israel, in western Asia. While Caucasian (like Arabs, Turks, Persians, etc) Jews are thus not White, being not European.

    Despite the admixture of European DNA in the Ashkenazi after their long exile among White nations, their identity remains separate and other to the Goyim who remain their antagonists and enemies. Jewish history is fundamentally the story of their suffering at the hands of Europeans and their survival against Europeans.

    Religious or not, they are not White. Crypsis, the game of playing "fellow White people" when it suits them and outsider victims of the eternally imminent Holocaust 2.0 when it suits them is the standard MO.

    You are right. Race is not just biological. It’s also social.

    Ashkenazim are Caucasoids, just like Middle Eastern people, Subcons, “White” Hispanics and Gypsies. But they are not 100% White European, and are not regarded by 100% of White Europeans as fellow White Europeans.

    In America, we practice hypodescent. If there is any confusion about one’s racial identity, one must go with whichever race has the lowest status. If your DNA test says you’re 99% White and 1% Black, you are Black. If you’re Askenazi, you are probably half White and half Middle Eastern. So a Caucasoid for sure, but still not White. If you’re Gypsy, you are probably half White and half Subcon. Also not White. If you’re “White Hispanic”, you probably have small amounts of Black or Indigenous DNA. Still not White.

    White is reserved for Americans who are 100% White European whose ancestors came directly to America from Europe and did not stop in other places in between.

    I don’t want Colored people to feel bad about being Colored though. There’s nothing wrong with being Black. I don’t want Blacks to feel bad about being Black. They were born this way, and it’s not their fault.

    • Replies: @Dr ExCathedra
    Yes, thanks. And I had not heard of hypodescent before. Accurate.

    But I suggest that your kindhearted concern that Colored people not feel bad about themselves is, well, with respect, a waste of your energy. Why? Because Colored people will not waste one drop of sweat over concerns that Whitey might feel bad about himself. Not one. On the contrary. Save your concern for those who will show concern about you.

    Merry Christmas!
  30. @Talha
    I was being facetious, of course. Despite the random colors, I find AE's data graphs to be great pieces of information on various subjects and conversation starters. Definitely the most valuable blog in terms of serious and beneficial content on UNZ (at least in my opinion) for American citizens.

    Purple would go well with Catholics (or maybe even a gold) - both have association with Roman imperial colors - and, if I recall, Catholic bishops themselves. Personally I'd like green since it's always been the traditional Muslim color (along with white - both being those reported as what the Prophet [pbuh] was fond of)...
    http://www.ilmgate.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Madinah-dome.jpg

    But...meh...what're you going to do?

    Peace.

    The Orange and the Green for Protestants and Catholics is too good to give up.

    Coincidentally on the Sri Lankan flag the Orange and the Green are for Tamils and Muslims.

    Blue is a Marian color which would also be good for Catholics but it’s also the preferred Jewish color; black has I think also been associated with clerical parties in the past. White and gold (as in the flag of the Holy See) work too; white is the Easter color as well and I believe gold is also often used for Easter.

    Red and yellow being the colors of Geneva would probably be okay for Protestants; even blue for them too as in “true-blue Presbyterian”. Red maybe also for Anglicans from the Cross of St. George.

    • Replies: @anon

    Blue is a Marian color which would also be good for Catholics but it’s also the preferred Jewish color;
     
    There are shades of blue.
    Notice this if you watch C Span: select some old C Span programs -- maybe from the early 90s. Observe the dark blue, not navy, not royal, but the blue of American flag.

    Now look at the present day set of C Span Washington Journal -- Israel flag blue.
    While you're at it, compare the logos, often lower right corner: present day logo is in Star of David blue and the graphic looks like the second or third phase of progress toward full Israeli flag.
    or maybe it's my antisemitic contact lenses.

  31. anon[178] • Disclaimer says:
    @RSDB
    The Orange and the Green for Protestants and Catholics is too good to give up.

    Coincidentally on the Sri Lankan flag the Orange and the Green are for Tamils and Muslims.

    Blue is a Marian color which would also be good for Catholics but it's also the preferred Jewish color; black has I think also been associated with clerical parties in the past. White and gold (as in the flag of the Holy See) work too; white is the Easter color as well and I believe gold is also often used for Easter.

    Red and yellow being the colors of Geneva would probably be okay for Protestants; even blue for them too as in "true-blue Presbyterian". Red maybe also for Anglicans from the Cross of St. George.

    Blue is a Marian color which would also be good for Catholics but it’s also the preferred Jewish color;

    There are shades of blue.
    Notice this if you watch C Span: select some old C Span programs — maybe from the early 90s. Observe the dark blue, not navy, not royal, but the blue of American flag.

    Now look at the present day set of C Span Washington Journal — Israel flag blue.
    While you’re at it, compare the logos, often lower right corner: present day logo is in Star of David blue and the graphic looks like the second or third phase of progress toward full Israeli flag.
    or maybe it’s my antisemitic contact lenses.

  32. Judaism is a religion. It is not a race, or a nationality. Individuals who have become agnostic or aetheist may refer to the fact that their ancestors were of those particular faiths-religions, who may have been persecuted for religious beliefs, or a lack of relogious beliefs, as in the case of Jews, for usuary, which Christians did not participate in for religious reasons, however, under Judaism, Jews are forgiven their debts, and non-Jews are not, which is a discriminatory policy, particularly if the lenders are not doing it for religious reasons, which would be the case if they were agnostic or atheist.It would be discriminating against religions other than Judaism. Israel has a debt free monetary system, created by Lord Rothschild, who created debt based monetary systems for nations other than Israel, and the Israel lobby in America has encouraged America to go to war against nations that decided to create their own debt free monetary systems, including Venezuela, Iran, Syria and Libya.

    Collecting interest is not a religion!

    I am starting a new Israel lobby members of Christians Against Policies of Israel in America – CAPIA, which is the opposite of AIPAC, will refer to themselves plurally as CAPIAS= a judicial writ for an arrest by an officer.

  33. @AaronB
    Certain phenomena do not easily lend themselves to being put into sharp and clear categories like scientific types like to do.

    Generally, these scientific types simply ignore these kinds of fuzzy phenomena, or more commonly, pretend they don't exist.

    Unfortunately, Jews are just a bit too visible to ignore or pretend they don't exist, leading to much angst and hand wringing among the sciency types as their usual way of thinking doesn't work.

    Judaism was not created by someone sitting down and logically coming up with a set of principles - it would be more accurate to say that it grew, like a tree. It represents a different kind of order than that of science, so sharp scientific categories are not the best way to understand it. It's more like poetry and art. It belongs to the imaginative side of things, which science isn't good at understanding.

    Judaism generally does not exclusively choose one side on any question - it does not choose racism exclusively nor does it choose its opposite exclusively. It does not define itself exclusively by religion or exclusively by nationhood.

    The scientific way of thinking, however, is to make exclusive, one sided choices - because only that way can you get absolutely clear definitions. And science is concerned with absolute clarity.

    To understand anything about Judaism, its important to realize that a) clarity is not its overriding concern b) it rarely if ever chooses one side on any question c) one might say it rejects the binary way of thinking.

    Right. At the end of your rant, you do not even refer to measurable, verifiable facts. All you have is some groupings, Ashkenazi, Sefardi, Romaniote, Mizrahi, etc., who have (or rather had) a communal language with some liturgical/religious ancient Hebrew borrowed words, like any language — without any cultural commonality with each other except religion for their religious minority. Period.

    So all your talk about not judging the claim of a “Jewish ethny / nation / people” by the commonly accepted criteria of mankind at large is just that much BS. Especially your claim to be exceptional with regard to logic and to facts. Of course clarity is an absolute requirement.

  34. @Talha

    I know a lot of atheistic jews who stick with the religion because of cultural identity, unity, and certain events do spark a deep spiritual sensation.
     
    It's actually fairly similar to many Europeans and "Chrisitian culture" as well. Olivier Roy has done some brilliant writing on the subject:
    "Rather than an authentic religious expression, Olivier Roy sees populism as a vehicle which appropriates Christian symbols for political ends while discarding the religion’s core values. Moreover, the rise of such movements has corresponded with the continued decline of church attendance and the widespread support for policies which run contrary to Church teachings. Capitalising on the Roman Catholic Church’s lack of credibility, populists have pushed their own brand of cultural Christianity.

    From Great Britain to Hungary, populist leaders are not known for being church-goers (with the exception of Poland). The same is true for the conservative right, which is getting closer and closer to the populists (Silvio Berlusconi, Laurent Wauquiez, Boris Johnson). Most of these leaders don’t care about abortion and same-sex marriage and have not only endorsed, but often enjoy, the sexual freedom inherited from the 60s that has been so vehemently denounced by the Catholic Church, and by the Protestant evangelicals, since the encyclical letter Humanae Vitae in 1968."
    https://www.ft.com/content/22204504-dfbd-11e9-9743-db5a370481bc

    https://twitter.com/shadihamid/status/1187099745027874819

    Plenty of this phenomenon is found all over the digital pages of UNZ to any casual observer perusing the articles and comments.

    It's really the disease of the age, it seems to have hit Jews harder than anyone else...though that's not altogether surprising either - plenty saw it coming:
    " The dissonance between needing to believe and being privately unable to do so creates all sorts of private theological creativity, but also many private tensions. Religious communities are only sustainable because, of the three great balms that organized religion provides its members—community, intellectual energy, and spiritual life—the first two most often overawe the third. How have most American Jews adapted to their belief-deficit? Jacob Neusner summed it up a long time ago: The State of Israel became the new god and the Holocaust the new liturgy. This shift to a politicized form of Judaism, Rabbi Neusner warned, would not be transmissible across generations."
    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/282724/the-collapse
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jacob-Neusner

    In fact, this association with Islam and some ephemeral and idiotic brown "Muslim identity" is something that our community is trying to fight against as well:
    "In “creating” Muslim organizations and leaders and “expanding their influence,” the key goals of the Soros-linked foundations are: reframing the community as primarily a racial or ethnic identity group rather than as a religious group; emphasizing the community’s support for Democrat-friendly political issues; and weakening the community’s traditional religious teachings such as defined gender roles and the prohibition on same-sex sexual relations...In contrast, the agenda of the progressive left foundations and nonprofit groups described herein is to refashion Islam as a secular identity group centered on ethnic “brownness,” and whose moral compass is the progressive wing of the Democratic party rather than Islamic religious sources."
    https://muslimmatters.org/2017/09/20/how-the-progressive-left-wants-to-change-islam-in-america/

    "Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am - stuck in the middle..."

    Peace.

    That was interesting. It is common for conservatives to point out that U.S Muslims are strange bedfellows for Democrats because they are so different on social issues. Everyone assumes Muslims will stand firm in their beliefs and if anything Democrats will change to accommodate them. I have never even thought of the idea that Democrats could be a bad influence on the Muslim community and change some of their fundemental beliefs and values.

    • Replies: @Talha

    I have never even thought of the idea that Democrats could be a bad influence on the Muslim community
     
    It's horrific. It is becoming more obvious with every passing day that Muslim leadership did not see the threat to the religion from close association with the liberal-Left. We should have seen what it did with other religions:
    "The accidental subversive genius of American liberalism has been in presenting the hijab not as a symbol of faith but as a symbol of choice. Right-wing critics resent this because, of course, the hijab is often imposed on people rather than being chosen. By encouraging Muslims to defend traditional dress on the grounds of choice, though, liberals and leftists have encouraged them to internalize individualistic standards. The hijab becomes less of a religious symbol, virtuously accepted according to God’s will, than an aspect of one’s personal identity, which one is free to shape and exhibit according to one’s wishes."
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-american-liberalism-is-co-opting-islam/

    The scramble is on to try to mitigate the damage:
    "It’s really not hard to understand why. Feminism is a liberal secular philosophy. In the same way that liberal secularism attacks traditional religion, feminism attacks traditional religion. Arguably, feminism is the main weapon in liberal secularism’s attack on traditional religion. So it’s no surprise that those Muslims who adopt feminist ideas will have deep problems with traditional religions like Islam."
    https://muslimskeptic.com/2019/01/09/is-feminism-the-cause-of-women-leaving-islam/

    The good thing is that these guys still do not have a significant following yet in the brick and mortar mosques. There are a lot of "organizations" that are getting their funding from God-knows-where and these guys get a lot of media attention, but they do not have the clout in the community to put up rival mosques in any significant way; as was recently demonstrated by a lady having to get a loan from a brothel owner in Germany to run her liberal mosque:
    "The lawyer and women's rights activist Seyran Ates received a personal loan from the operator of the Artemis brothel. This was confirmed by the co-founder of the liberal Ibn Rushd Goethe Mosque in Moabit Tagesspiegel after the "Süddeutsche Zeitung" first reported about it. Seyran Ates claims to have received “approximately” 45,000 euros from Artemis boss Hakki Simsek."
    https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/privatkredit-von-bordell-chef-seyran-ates-streitet-interessenskonflikt-ab/25355194.html

    Far, far better that we get kicked out of the West wholesale than lose our religion like has happened to others.

    Peace.
  35. The JEW QUESTION:

    Jews form a nation within a nation everywhere they reside. Can Jews ever be considered to be part of the larger nation in which they reside when they are genetically and culturally predisposed to put the interests of the Jew Nation over and above the interests of the larger nations in which they reside?

    Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein and Charles Schumer and Adam Schiff and Jared Kushner and Gary Cohn and Ben Shapiro and Mike Bloomberg and Shelly Adelson and Paul Singer and Bernie Marcus and Les Wexner and Seth Klarman and on and on.

    The JEW/WASP ruling class of the American Empire must be removed from power.

    https://twitter.com/JoeBrow67457841/status/1209062863479832576?s=20

  36. @Talha
    I was being facetious, of course. Despite the random colors, I find AE's data graphs to be great pieces of information on various subjects and conversation starters. Definitely the most valuable blog in terms of serious and beneficial content on UNZ (at least in my opinion) for American citizens.

    Purple would go well with Catholics (or maybe even a gold) - both have association with Roman imperial colors - and, if I recall, Catholic bishops themselves. Personally I'd like green since it's always been the traditional Muslim color (along with white - both being those reported as what the Prophet [pbuh] was fond of)...
    http://www.ilmgate.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Madinah-dome.jpg

    But...meh...what're you going to do?

    Peace.

    Since I am not Muslim, I consider a lot of the associations between Islam and the color green as abstractions. The way I really think of it, it is something the Arabs living in a desert wasteland (as I conceive of it), would have really gone gaga over, any time they saw an oasis, or a stalk of grass.

    I’m reminded of the old women who told Lawrence of Arabia that his blue eyes were like holes in the back of his skull to the sky, or the utter disbelief Arabs used to have if you tried to describe a waterfall to them.

    Green really makes me think of Ireland, of the land itself, temperate, well-watered. I really like the traditional flag, a gold harp on a green field. I’m not trying to be partisan when I say it, but I hate the tricolor – it is too much like other flags, (particularly like the atheist French flag) and also has a bit of the flavor of multiculturalism. Though, some people say the best flag is the one that you can read from a long distance.

    BTW, nice dome. I am partial to copper roofs.

    • Replies: @Talha
    Well, one advantage of getting assigned the poop color is we get to stay out of the whole rainbow nonsense...so, I guess that's a consolation.

    BTW, nice dome.
     
    It was Ottoman design. The Saudis demolished much of the older structures (as well as much of the entire old city) when building out the new mosque complex in Madinah, but balked at that dome which had become quite symbolic of the Prophet's presence (pbuh) in the city - being directly above his resting place.

    Peace.
  37. @Jay Fink
    That was interesting. It is common for conservatives to point out that U.S Muslims are strange bedfellows for Democrats because they are so different on social issues. Everyone assumes Muslims will stand firm in their beliefs and if anything Democrats will change to accommodate them. I have never even thought of the idea that Democrats could be a bad influence on the Muslim community and change some of their fundemental beliefs and values.

    I have never even thought of the idea that Democrats could be a bad influence on the Muslim community

    It’s horrific. It is becoming more obvious with every passing day that Muslim leadership did not see the threat to the religion from close association with the liberal-Left. We should have seen what it did with other religions:
    “The accidental subversive genius of American liberalism has been in presenting the hijab not as a symbol of faith but as a symbol of choice. Right-wing critics resent this because, of course, the hijab is often imposed on people rather than being chosen. By encouraging Muslims to defend traditional dress on the grounds of choice, though, liberals and leftists have encouraged them to internalize individualistic standards. The hijab becomes less of a religious symbol, virtuously accepted according to God’s will, than an aspect of one’s personal identity, which one is free to shape and exhibit according to one’s wishes.”
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-american-liberalism-is-co-opting-islam/

    The scramble is on to try to mitigate the damage:
    “It’s really not hard to understand why. Feminism is a liberal secular philosophy. In the same way that liberal secularism attacks traditional religion, feminism attacks traditional religion. Arguably, feminism is the main weapon in liberal secularism’s attack on traditional religion. So it’s no surprise that those Muslims who adopt feminist ideas will have deep problems with traditional religions like Islam.”
    https://muslimskeptic.com/2019/01/09/is-feminism-the-cause-of-women-leaving-islam/

    The good thing is that these guys still do not have a significant following yet in the brick and mortar mosques. There are a lot of “organizations” that are getting their funding from God-knows-where and these guys get a lot of media attention, but they do not have the clout in the community to put up rival mosques in any significant way; as was recently demonstrated by a lady having to get a loan from a brothel owner in Germany to run her liberal mosque:
    “The lawyer and women’s rights activist Seyran Ates received a personal loan from the operator of the Artemis brothel. This was confirmed by the co-founder of the liberal Ibn Rushd Goethe Mosque in Moabit Tagesspiegel after the “SĂĽddeutsche Zeitung” first reported about it. Seyran Ates claims to have received “approximately” 45,000 euros from Artemis boss Hakki Simsek.”
    https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/privatkredit-von-bordell-chef-seyran-ates-streitet-interessenskonflikt-ab/25355194.html

    Far, far better that we get kicked out of the West wholesale than lose our religion like has happened to others.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Far, far better that we get kicked out of the West wholesale than lose our religion like has happened to others.
     
    Agreed. Assimilation is an existential threat. And liberals are absolutely determined that Muslims are going to be assimilated to liberal values. The undermining of Islam with things like the hijab issue you mentioned earlier - these are the first cautious shots in liberalism's war on Islam. At the moment they're probing your defences, looking for the weak spots. Have no doubt what liberalism's intentions are towards Islam.

    It's a difficult problem for Muslims. The Political Right is even less trustworthy than the Political Left.
  38. @Jay Fink
    That chart was thought provoking to me. I can't relate to most Jews on politics, I hate neoliberalism. Yet when it comes to belief in God I am in the 76% who does not know God exists. I am not an atheist. I guess I am an agnostic. I believe there are limitless possibilities on what created us and why we are here. My guess is the truth is beyond the humans brains ability to comprehend.

    My guess is the truth is beyond the humans brains ability to comprehend.

    How could that be?

    We create truth.

  39. Zionism is the ideology of the Jewish State. A Jew doesn’t have to be a Zionist and a Zionist doesn’t have to be a Jew. But (greater) Zionism is what keeps Israel in a state of permanent enmity with her neighbors. This is a problem for Americans because Imperial Washington is also Zionist. That is because Washington is corrupt and some Zionist Jews are very wealthy.

    People who criticize the Jewish State are said to be anti-Semitic. Which is seriously dumb. You may have cause to criticize the Jews as a People, an ethnicity, a religion or a race. But if you are criticizing the Jewish State your problem is probably with Zionism. If you are an American critical of the Jewish State your problem is corruption in Washington.

  40. @Tulip
    Italian and German are nationalities. How come no one accuses German-Americans and Italian-Americans of dual loyalty?

    Germans and Italians don’t receive billions of taxpayer dollars because of their lobbying groups and co-ethnic politicians.

    • Replies: @Tulip
    Doesn't seem like Germany and Italy are paying their fair share of the NATO budget, and why are American troops still protecting Europe from the Soviet Evil Empire in 2019?
  41. Well, Jewism is a racial supremacist ideology and always has been.

    Is it a religion?

    Sure, if you consider that Jews worship themselves as gods.

    It is not surprising at all that a group that believes it can trick god by stringing fishing line on utility poles comes up at 26% on the “believes in God” poll.

    I’m pretty sure they come up at 100% in the “believes they are gods” poll.

    • Agree: nokangaroos
  42. @Talha

    I know a lot of atheistic jews who stick with the religion because of cultural identity, unity, and certain events do spark a deep spiritual sensation.
     
    It's actually fairly similar to many Europeans and "Chrisitian culture" as well. Olivier Roy has done some brilliant writing on the subject:
    "Rather than an authentic religious expression, Olivier Roy sees populism as a vehicle which appropriates Christian symbols for political ends while discarding the religion’s core values. Moreover, the rise of such movements has corresponded with the continued decline of church attendance and the widespread support for policies which run contrary to Church teachings. Capitalising on the Roman Catholic Church’s lack of credibility, populists have pushed their own brand of cultural Christianity.

    From Great Britain to Hungary, populist leaders are not known for being church-goers (with the exception of Poland). The same is true for the conservative right, which is getting closer and closer to the populists (Silvio Berlusconi, Laurent Wauquiez, Boris Johnson). Most of these leaders don’t care about abortion and same-sex marriage and have not only endorsed, but often enjoy, the sexual freedom inherited from the 60s that has been so vehemently denounced by the Catholic Church, and by the Protestant evangelicals, since the encyclical letter Humanae Vitae in 1968."
    https://www.ft.com/content/22204504-dfbd-11e9-9743-db5a370481bc

    https://twitter.com/shadihamid/status/1187099745027874819

    Plenty of this phenomenon is found all over the digital pages of UNZ to any casual observer perusing the articles and comments.

    It's really the disease of the age, it seems to have hit Jews harder than anyone else...though that's not altogether surprising either - plenty saw it coming:
    " The dissonance between needing to believe and being privately unable to do so creates all sorts of private theological creativity, but also many private tensions. Religious communities are only sustainable because, of the three great balms that organized religion provides its members—community, intellectual energy, and spiritual life—the first two most often overawe the third. How have most American Jews adapted to their belief-deficit? Jacob Neusner summed it up a long time ago: The State of Israel became the new god and the Holocaust the new liturgy. This shift to a politicized form of Judaism, Rabbi Neusner warned, would not be transmissible across generations."
    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/282724/the-collapse
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jacob-Neusner

    In fact, this association with Islam and some ephemeral and idiotic brown "Muslim identity" is something that our community is trying to fight against as well:
    "In “creating” Muslim organizations and leaders and “expanding their influence,” the key goals of the Soros-linked foundations are: reframing the community as primarily a racial or ethnic identity group rather than as a religious group; emphasizing the community’s support for Democrat-friendly political issues; and weakening the community’s traditional religious teachings such as defined gender roles and the prohibition on same-sex sexual relations...In contrast, the agenda of the progressive left foundations and nonprofit groups described herein is to refashion Islam as a secular identity group centered on ethnic “brownness,” and whose moral compass is the progressive wing of the Democratic party rather than Islamic religious sources."
    https://muslimmatters.org/2017/09/20/how-the-progressive-left-wants-to-change-islam-in-america/

    "Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am - stuck in the middle..."

    Peace.

    This shift to a politicized form of Judaism, Rabbi Neusner warned, would not be transmissible across generations.

    An interesting point.

    • Replies: @Hail
    Of course a rabbi would say it, but it is demonstrably untrue. "Political Judaism" is very strong today. Why would several former US presidents have Jewish grandchildren (that is, their children married Jews and their grandchildren are being raised Jewish)?

    Any proposal for Jewish identity that excludes the political (or that fails to identify the political-"caste"-like nature of Jewish identity in the West [certainly in the US], to use anonlb's phrasing) is, at best, anachronistic.

    The political-Judaism of today has a new layer of religious elements paralleling or replacing those of classic religion.

    , @Talha
    The traditional scholars saw it coming also with Daesh who made the dawla (state) an idol - the end-all, be-all of their concept of Islam. Their utopian pipe-dream became a nightmare to everyone else and only created mayhem and drove people further away from the religion.

    Peace.
  43. @dfordoom

    This shift to a politicized form of Judaism, Rabbi Neusner warned, would not be transmissible across generations.
     
    An interesting point.

    Of course a rabbi would say it, but it is demonstrably untrue. “Political Judaism” is very strong today. Why would several former US presidents have Jewish grandchildren (that is, their children married Jews and their grandchildren are being raised Jewish)?

    Any proposal for Jewish identity that excludes the political (or that fails to identify the political-“caste”-like nature of Jewish identity in the West [certainly in the US], to use anonlb’s phrasing) is, at best, anachronistic.

    The political-Judaism of today has a new layer of religious elements paralleling or replacing those of classic religion.

  44. @dfordoom

    This shift to a politicized form of Judaism, Rabbi Neusner warned, would not be transmissible across generations.
     
    An interesting point.

    The traditional scholars saw it coming also with Daesh who made the dawla (state) an idol – the end-all, be-all of their concept of Islam. Their utopian pipe-dream became a nightmare to everyone else and only created mayhem and drove people further away from the religion.

    Peace.

  45. @songbird
    Since I am not Muslim, I consider a lot of the associations between Islam and the color green as abstractions. The way I really think of it, it is something the Arabs living in a desert wasteland (as I conceive of it), would have really gone gaga over, any time they saw an oasis, or a stalk of grass.

    I'm reminded of the old women who told Lawrence of Arabia that his blue eyes were like holes in the back of his skull to the sky, or the utter disbelief Arabs used to have if you tried to describe a waterfall to them.

    Green really makes me think of Ireland, of the land itself, temperate, well-watered. I really like the traditional flag, a gold harp on a green field. I'm not trying to be partisan when I say it, but I hate the tricolor - it is too much like other flags, (particularly like the atheist French flag) and also has a bit of the flavor of multiculturalism. Though, some people say the best flag is the one that you can read from a long distance.

    BTW, nice dome. I am partial to copper roofs.

    Well, one advantage of getting assigned the poop color is we get to stay out of the whole rainbow nonsense…so, I guess that’s a consolation.

    BTW, nice dome.

    It was Ottoman design. The Saudis demolished much of the older structures (as well as much of the entire old city) when building out the new mosque complex in Madinah, but balked at that dome which had become quite symbolic of the Prophet’s presence (pbuh) in the city – being directly above his resting place.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @songbird
    I suppose the dome must be painted green, but it's an interesting shade, almost like you can see the copper in it. For all their flaws, the Ottomans did build some interesting structures.

    That is quite interesting about the Saudis - I never knew that. It is kind of amazing how little Americans know about the Saudis. I mean, for all the supposed strategic and financial ties, you would think that we would actually be taught something about them in school. But some people think Faisal I bin Hussein bin Ali al-Hashemi was the King Faisal who ruled Saudi Arabia into the 1970s - and it is few who would have even heard of either of them.

    We need to reclaim the rainbow back, it belongs to God.
  46. @Tulip
    Italian and German are nationalities. How come no one accuses German-Americans and Italian-Americans of dual loyalty?

    They did in WW2.

    As Tusk says, AIPAC is the reason it happens now.

  47. I always thought they should have ‘Hebrew’ for the ancestry (including Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi, and random groups like the Falashas), ‘Jewish’ for the religion, and ‘Israeli’ for the actual nationality. You can be a Hebrew Christian or an Irish Jew if you convert.

    • Replies: @Rex Little
    I definitely agree that there should be separate words for the ancestry and the religion. Discussions often get confused when "Jew" or "Jewish" is used and it's not clear which of those it refers to.

    The only problem with using "Hebrew" for the ancestry is that the same word is used for the official language of Israel, so you've still got some confusion.

    I'd like to see the word "Judaist" (which I just made up) used to refer to the religion; it can be a noun or an adjective, just like "Christian." The religion itself is Judaism; extending the meaning like Trump is trying to do just confuses things further. "Jew" and "Jewish" would refer only to the ancestry.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    That would clear things up nicely.
  48. @Talha

    I have never even thought of the idea that Democrats could be a bad influence on the Muslim community
     
    It's horrific. It is becoming more obvious with every passing day that Muslim leadership did not see the threat to the religion from close association with the liberal-Left. We should have seen what it did with other religions:
    "The accidental subversive genius of American liberalism has been in presenting the hijab not as a symbol of faith but as a symbol of choice. Right-wing critics resent this because, of course, the hijab is often imposed on people rather than being chosen. By encouraging Muslims to defend traditional dress on the grounds of choice, though, liberals and leftists have encouraged them to internalize individualistic standards. The hijab becomes less of a religious symbol, virtuously accepted according to God’s will, than an aspect of one’s personal identity, which one is free to shape and exhibit according to one’s wishes."
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-american-liberalism-is-co-opting-islam/

    The scramble is on to try to mitigate the damage:
    "It’s really not hard to understand why. Feminism is a liberal secular philosophy. In the same way that liberal secularism attacks traditional religion, feminism attacks traditional religion. Arguably, feminism is the main weapon in liberal secularism’s attack on traditional religion. So it’s no surprise that those Muslims who adopt feminist ideas will have deep problems with traditional religions like Islam."
    https://muslimskeptic.com/2019/01/09/is-feminism-the-cause-of-women-leaving-islam/

    The good thing is that these guys still do not have a significant following yet in the brick and mortar mosques. There are a lot of "organizations" that are getting their funding from God-knows-where and these guys get a lot of media attention, but they do not have the clout in the community to put up rival mosques in any significant way; as was recently demonstrated by a lady having to get a loan from a brothel owner in Germany to run her liberal mosque:
    "The lawyer and women's rights activist Seyran Ates received a personal loan from the operator of the Artemis brothel. This was confirmed by the co-founder of the liberal Ibn Rushd Goethe Mosque in Moabit Tagesspiegel after the "Süddeutsche Zeitung" first reported about it. Seyran Ates claims to have received “approximately” 45,000 euros from Artemis boss Hakki Simsek."
    https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/privatkredit-von-bordell-chef-seyran-ates-streitet-interessenskonflikt-ab/25355194.html

    Far, far better that we get kicked out of the West wholesale than lose our religion like has happened to others.

    Peace.

    Far, far better that we get kicked out of the West wholesale than lose our religion like has happened to others.

    Agreed. Assimilation is an existential threat. And liberals are absolutely determined that Muslims are going to be assimilated to liberal values. The undermining of Islam with things like the hijab issue you mentioned earlier – these are the first cautious shots in liberalism’s war on Islam. At the moment they’re probing your defences, looking for the weak spots. Have no doubt what liberalism’s intentions are towards Islam.

    It’s a difficult problem for Muslims. The Political Right is even less trustworthy than the Political Left.

    • Replies: @Talha

    Have no doubt what liberalism’s intentions are towards Islam.
     
    Some are quite open about their intentions. This guy is a former French ambassador to both Israel and the US. Openly gay and lives with his partner.

    If they can’t do it the nice and easy way and push comes to shove, well...they’ve done this before:
    https://twitter.com/GerardAraud/status/1208786250016137216

    Peace.
    , @Talha

    And liberals are absolutely determined that Muslims are going to be assimilated to liberal values.
     
    Which is what happened to the other religions and why traditional Muslims like myself are particularly interested in the dynamics of what happened to Jews and Christians and how we can avoid the same pitfalls. We were warned that we are very susceptible to the very same problems that plague them if we are not vigilant about it (the term we Muslims use colloquially is "down the lizard hole"):
    "'Verily, you will follow the path of those before you, step by step and inch by inch; if they entered the hole of a lizard, you would follow.' We asked, 'O Messenger of Allah, do you mean the Jews and Christians?' The Prophet said, 'Who else?'” - reported in both Bukhari and Muslim

    Peace.
  49. @Talha
    Well, one advantage of getting assigned the poop color is we get to stay out of the whole rainbow nonsense...so, I guess that's a consolation.

    BTW, nice dome.
     
    It was Ottoman design. The Saudis demolished much of the older structures (as well as much of the entire old city) when building out the new mosque complex in Madinah, but balked at that dome which had become quite symbolic of the Prophet's presence (pbuh) in the city - being directly above his resting place.

    Peace.

    I suppose the dome must be painted green, but it’s an interesting shade, almost like you can see the copper in it. For all their flaws, the Ottomans did build some interesting structures.

    That is quite interesting about the Saudis – I never knew that. It is kind of amazing how little Americans know about the Saudis. I mean, for all the supposed strategic and financial ties, you would think that we would actually be taught something about them in school. But some people think Faisal I bin Hussein bin Ali al-Hashemi was the King Faisal who ruled Saudi Arabia into the 1970s – and it is few who would have even heard of either of them.

    We need to reclaim the rainbow back, it belongs to God.

    • Replies: @Talha

    It is kind of amazing how little Americans know about the Saudis. I mean, for all the supposed strategic and financial ties, you would think that we would actually be taught something about them in school.
     
    This is deliberate. If Americans knew, they might despise the Saudi elite almost as much as most Muslims do. A bit like how we don’t know much about many of the dictators we support (hell, we even cover for them) until it comes time to replace them, then all the nasty stuff comes out - Saddam was a good example of this. Noriega was another.

    We need to reclaim the rainbow back, it belongs to God.
     
    Agreed.

    Peace.
  50. None of the above. Judaism is a crime syndicate; nothing more, nothing less. Just watch the constant gibs me of the Christian-Jews coalition. If one isn’t trying to shake normies down, the other is. All with a percentage going to the Great State of Israel. Even the big shots like Adelson have to kick some upstairs. Bibi is wetting his beak in plenty of nests. Where this is a racket, there is a Jew

  51. @songbird
    I suppose the dome must be painted green, but it's an interesting shade, almost like you can see the copper in it. For all their flaws, the Ottomans did build some interesting structures.

    That is quite interesting about the Saudis - I never knew that. It is kind of amazing how little Americans know about the Saudis. I mean, for all the supposed strategic and financial ties, you would think that we would actually be taught something about them in school. But some people think Faisal I bin Hussein bin Ali al-Hashemi was the King Faisal who ruled Saudi Arabia into the 1970s - and it is few who would have even heard of either of them.

    We need to reclaim the rainbow back, it belongs to God.

    It is kind of amazing how little Americans know about the Saudis. I mean, for all the supposed strategic and financial ties, you would think that we would actually be taught something about them in school.

    This is deliberate. If Americans knew, they might despise the Saudi elite almost as much as most Muslims do. A bit like how we don’t know much about many of the dictators we support (hell, we even cover for them) until it comes time to replace them, then all the nasty stuff comes out – Saddam was a good example of this. Noriega was another.

    We need to reclaim the rainbow back, it belongs to God.

    Agreed.

    Peace.

    • Agree: songbird
  52. @dfordoom

    Far, far better that we get kicked out of the West wholesale than lose our religion like has happened to others.
     
    Agreed. Assimilation is an existential threat. And liberals are absolutely determined that Muslims are going to be assimilated to liberal values. The undermining of Islam with things like the hijab issue you mentioned earlier - these are the first cautious shots in liberalism's war on Islam. At the moment they're probing your defences, looking for the weak spots. Have no doubt what liberalism's intentions are towards Islam.

    It's a difficult problem for Muslims. The Political Right is even less trustworthy than the Political Left.

    Have no doubt what liberalism’s intentions are towards Islam.

    Some are quite open about their intentions. This guy is a former French ambassador to both Israel and the US. Openly gay and lives with his partner.

    If they can’t do it the nice and easy way and push comes to shove, well…they’ve done this before:

    Peace.

  53. @dfordoom

    Far, far better that we get kicked out of the West wholesale than lose our religion like has happened to others.
     
    Agreed. Assimilation is an existential threat. And liberals are absolutely determined that Muslims are going to be assimilated to liberal values. The undermining of Islam with things like the hijab issue you mentioned earlier - these are the first cautious shots in liberalism's war on Islam. At the moment they're probing your defences, looking for the weak spots. Have no doubt what liberalism's intentions are towards Islam.

    It's a difficult problem for Muslims. The Political Right is even less trustworthy than the Political Left.

    And liberals are absolutely determined that Muslims are going to be assimilated to liberal values.

    Which is what happened to the other religions and why traditional Muslims like myself are particularly interested in the dynamics of what happened to Jews and Christians and how we can avoid the same pitfalls. We were warned that we are very susceptible to the very same problems that plague them if we are not vigilant about it (the term we Muslims use colloquially is “down the lizard hole”):
    “‘Verily, you will follow the path of those before you, step by step and inch by inch; if they entered the hole of a lizard, you would follow.’ We asked, ‘O Messenger of Allah, do you mean the Jews and Christians?’ The Prophet said, ‘Who else?’” – reported in both Bukhari and Muslim

    Peace.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
    Talha,
    The problem with Jews is when a somewhat genetically and culturally different group get power in a country full of people who are non ethnocentric.

    Thankfully that will never happen in a Muslim country, since people tend to be somewhat ethnocentric and possess a healthy amount of skepticism toward alien rulers. This is probably why any foreign interventionalism in those areas tend to never work.
    , @Nodwink
    Muslims are quite happy to appropriate the trashier aspects of the kafir -- soccer, K-Pop, flashy shopping malls -- but are unable to integrate the higher aspects the infidel.

    The only true unassimilated Muslim is the illiterate Sunni Pakistani, sitting in his mud hut with his goats.
  54. @SFG
    I always thought they should have 'Hebrew' for the ancestry (including Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi, and random groups like the Falashas), 'Jewish' for the religion, and 'Israeli' for the actual nationality. You can be a Hebrew Christian or an Irish Jew if you convert.

    I definitely agree that there should be separate words for the ancestry and the religion. Discussions often get confused when “Jew” or “Jewish” is used and it’s not clear which of those it refers to.

    The only problem with using “Hebrew” for the ancestry is that the same word is used for the official language of Israel, so you’ve still got some confusion.

    I’d like to see the word “Judaist” (which I just made up) used to refer to the religion; it can be a noun or an adjective, just like “Christian.” The religion itself is Judaism; extending the meaning like Trump is trying to do just confuses things further. “Jew” and “Jewish” would refer only to the ancestry.

  55. @Tusk
    Germans and Italians don't receive billions of taxpayer dollars because of their lobbying groups and co-ethnic politicians.

    Doesn’t seem like Germany and Italy are paying their fair share of the NATO budget, and why are American troops still protecting Europe from the Soviet Evil Empire in 2019?

  56. @Anonymous
    You are right. Race is not just biological. It's also social.

    Ashkenazim are Caucasoids, just like Middle Eastern people, Subcons, "White" Hispanics and Gypsies. But they are not 100% White European, and are not regarded by 100% of White Europeans as fellow White Europeans.

    In America, we practice hypodescent. If there is any confusion about one's racial identity, one must go with whichever race has the lowest status. If your DNA test says you're 99% White and 1% Black, you are Black. If you're Askenazi, you are probably half White and half Middle Eastern. So a Caucasoid for sure, but still not White. If you're Gypsy, you are probably half White and half Subcon. Also not White. If you're "White Hispanic", you probably have small amounts of Black or Indigenous DNA. Still not White.

    White is reserved for Americans who are 100% White European whose ancestors came directly to America from Europe and did not stop in other places in between.

    I don't want Colored people to feel bad about being Colored though. There's nothing wrong with being Black. I don't want Blacks to feel bad about being Black. They were born this way, and it's not their fault.

    Yes, thanks. And I had not heard of hypodescent before. Accurate.

    But I suggest that your kindhearted concern that Colored people not feel bad about themselves is, well, with respect, a waste of your energy. Why? Because Colored people will not waste one drop of sweat over concerns that Whitey might feel bad about himself. Not one. On the contrary. Save your concern for those who will show concern about you.

    Merry Christmas!

  57. @Talha

    And liberals are absolutely determined that Muslims are going to be assimilated to liberal values.
     
    Which is what happened to the other religions and why traditional Muslims like myself are particularly interested in the dynamics of what happened to Jews and Christians and how we can avoid the same pitfalls. We were warned that we are very susceptible to the very same problems that plague them if we are not vigilant about it (the term we Muslims use colloquially is "down the lizard hole"):
    "'Verily, you will follow the path of those before you, step by step and inch by inch; if they entered the hole of a lizard, you would follow.' We asked, 'O Messenger of Allah, do you mean the Jews and Christians?' The Prophet said, 'Who else?'” - reported in both Bukhari and Muslim

    Peace.

    Talha,
    The problem with Jews is when a somewhat genetically and culturally different group get power in a country full of people who are non ethnocentric.

    Thankfully that will never happen in a Muslim country, since people tend to be somewhat ethnocentric and possess a healthy amount of skepticism toward alien rulers. This is probably why any foreign interventionalism in those areas tend to never work.

    • Replies: @Talha

    The problem with Jews is when a somewhat genetically and culturally different group get power in a country full of people who are non ethnocentric.
     
    I don't think this is particular to Jews to be honest. I have seen my own company's IT department get overwhelmed with Indians within a span of 5 years - it's a pretty incredible feat. I have asked my cousins and other Muslims I know in the field and they have reported similar occurrences. Furthermore, if you ask the people in Asia, they are far less worried about Jews than they are about powerful Chinese minorities.

    Thankfully that will never happen in a Muslim country, since people tend to be somewhat ethnocentric and possess a healthy amount of skepticism toward alien rulers.
     
    Yes, Muslims tend to still be more ethnocentric - we didn't do away with clans and tribes like the people of Europe did. This can often be a disadvantage or and advantage - depending on the situation. One thing the Muslim world had going for a long time was a prohibition on usury (which is often cornered by certain minorities) and this is something still looked down on, but is pretty ubiquitous since colonial times.

    Another difference is that Muslim-majority countries often officially make Islam the state religion which allows for certain restrictions as to who can climb the socio-political hierarchy to the top. Sometimes the key positions in government and military are restricted to Muslims only; this can be officially or simply because the Muslim population will not tolerate a non-Muslim in a key position and so the position is only theoretically open to others, but in practice is not. For instance, Pakistan has had some high level military folks like Christians attain to a first rank general in the army, but it is highly doubtful they will ever reach something like a five-star rank (and someone like me would advocate for a legal restriction on the position to only allow Muslims to fill it). So, the restriction is not simply for Jews, but rather anyone who isn't fully on board with your vision of society and could take it in a direction you don't want. For instance, it is highly doubtful you will ever see 3 Jewish Supreme Court justices like you have in the US (or even Buddhist or Christian ones - though, even a place like Pakistan has had at least one Christian one in the past). So full enfranchisement is really not an ethnic issue as much as it is a religious and ideological one. Anyone that becomes a brother in Islam, becomes part of the Ummah. In fact - and to keep with the examples out of Pakistani history - the first passport of Pakistan was actually made for a Jewish convert to Islam, Leopold Weiss (aka Muhammad Assad) and he was asked to help in drafting up the framework for the fledgling state (though the proposals never got off the drawing board, he did end up serving as part of its foreign ministry and at the UN):
    "With the 1947 partition of India Asad and his family became citizens of Pakistan, and Asad became a confidant and adviser to the founders of the new state. At the request of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the political founder of Pakistan, Asad compiled a document on 'suggestions for an Islamic Constitution for an Islamic State.' Soon after independence was declared, Jinnah established the DIR, the Department of Islamic Reconstruction, with Asad at its head. Among the DIR’s tasks: to draft Pakistan’s Constitution and to propose the frameworks of the new state’s educational and social systems, 'all along Islamic lines.' Asad drew up documents describing these plans and circulated them among Pakistan religious scholars....Also controversial was Asad’s proposal that the political rights of non-Muslims be enshrined in the constitution, though he agreed with the more conservative members of the Ulema that the head of government should be a Muslim."
    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/206221/jew-helped-invent-islamic-state

    So, for us, Jewishness is an ethnicity like Balochi or Punjabi or Bosnian or Malay, but they key is that the person has adopted the same overall worldview* and then details can always be negotiated based on merit. I personally wish the Pakistani government had implemented some more of his ideas, but that's history. Hope this helps.

    Peace.

    *Note, for instance that non-Muslim Europeans like the Brits and the French were forced out of leadership by the Egyptians while Muslim Europeans, like the Albanian, Muhammad Ali was able to establish a ruling dynasty there well into the mid-20th century until the military coup led by Nasser and Naguib brought the Arab socialists to power.
  58. @John Arthur
    Talha,
    The problem with Jews is when a somewhat genetically and culturally different group get power in a country full of people who are non ethnocentric.

    Thankfully that will never happen in a Muslim country, since people tend to be somewhat ethnocentric and possess a healthy amount of skepticism toward alien rulers. This is probably why any foreign interventionalism in those areas tend to never work.

    The problem with Jews is when a somewhat genetically and culturally different group get power in a country full of people who are non ethnocentric.

    I don’t think this is particular to Jews to be honest. I have seen my own company’s IT department get overwhelmed with Indians within a span of 5 years – it’s a pretty incredible feat. I have asked my cousins and other Muslims I know in the field and they have reported similar occurrences. Furthermore, if you ask the people in Asia, they are far less worried about Jews than they are about powerful Chinese minorities.

    Thankfully that will never happen in a Muslim country, since people tend to be somewhat ethnocentric and possess a healthy amount of skepticism toward alien rulers.

    Yes, Muslims tend to still be more ethnocentric – we didn’t do away with clans and tribes like the people of Europe did. This can often be a disadvantage or and advantage – depending on the situation. One thing the Muslim world had going for a long time was a prohibition on usury (which is often cornered by certain minorities) and this is something still looked down on, but is pretty ubiquitous since colonial times.

    Another difference is that Muslim-majority countries often officially make Islam the state religion which allows for certain restrictions as to who can climb the socio-political hierarchy to the top. Sometimes the key positions in government and military are restricted to Muslims only; this can be officially or simply because the Muslim population will not tolerate a non-Muslim in a key position and so the position is only theoretically open to others, but in practice is not. For instance, Pakistan has had some high level military folks like Christians attain to a first rank general in the army, but it is highly doubtful they will ever reach something like a five-star rank (and someone like me would advocate for a legal restriction on the position to only allow Muslims to fill it). So, the restriction is not simply for Jews, but rather anyone who isn’t fully on board with your vision of society and could take it in a direction you don’t want. For instance, it is highly doubtful you will ever see 3 Jewish Supreme Court justices like you have in the US (or even Buddhist or Christian ones – though, even a place like Pakistan has had at least one Christian one in the past). So full enfranchisement is really not an ethnic issue as much as it is a religious and ideological one. Anyone that becomes a brother in Islam, becomes part of the Ummah. In fact – and to keep with the examples out of Pakistani history – the first passport of Pakistan was actually made for a Jewish convert to Islam, Leopold Weiss (aka Muhammad Assad) and he was asked to help in drafting up the framework for the fledgling state (though the proposals never got off the drawing board, he did end up serving as part of its foreign ministry and at the UN):
    “With the 1947 partition of India Asad and his family became citizens of Pakistan, and Asad became a confidant and adviser to the founders of the new state. At the request of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the political founder of Pakistan, Asad compiled a document on ‘suggestions for an Islamic Constitution for an Islamic State.’ Soon after independence was declared, Jinnah established the DIR, the Department of Islamic Reconstruction, with Asad at its head. Among the DIR’s tasks: to draft Pakistan’s Constitution and to propose the frameworks of the new state’s educational and social systems, ‘all along Islamic lines.’ Asad drew up documents describing these plans and circulated them among Pakistan religious scholars….Also controversial was Asad’s proposal that the political rights of non-Muslims be enshrined in the constitution, though he agreed with the more conservative members of the Ulema that the head of government should be a Muslim.
    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/206221/jew-helped-invent-islamic-state

    So, for us, Jewishness is an ethnicity like Balochi or Punjabi or Bosnian or Malay, but they key is that the person has adopted the same overall worldview* and then details can always be negotiated based on merit. I personally wish the Pakistani government had implemented some more of his ideas, but that’s history. Hope this helps.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    *Note, for instance that non-Muslim Europeans like the Brits and the French were forced out of leadership by the Egyptians while Muslim Europeans, like the Albanian, Muhammad Ali was able to establish a ruling dynasty there well into the mid-20th century until the military coup led by Nasser and Naguib brought the Arab socialists to power.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    It's a good model. This is basically the Jewish/Israeli model.

    We have Arab ministers and Druze generals, but they could become Prime Ministers only in theory.
    , @John Arthur
    Great post,
    Islam in many cases gives the disparate groups something common to believe in, just like Christanity did in the early days of what would become modern Europe. I find that Islam really varies depending on the people, and is less influential than folks on the Right would want to state.

    For instance, Islam in Europe, and South East Asia is very peaceful, and can easily coexist among various groups, and this is due to the lack of ethnocentricity among the ethnic people there. The opposite is true in South Asia, which is unfortunately dealing with the problems that high ethnocentricity creates.

    I find that your observation of Indians in Silicon Valley is entirely accurate. I have seen high levels of ethnocentricity in that group, and am uncomfortable with additional immigration from them, despite their great smarts.

    For instance, an amusing situation is between the United States and Britain. Our Muslims are mostly Middle Eastern in origin(probably refugees), with very few from Pakistan and India, and tend to very non ethnocentric. Some of their cultures are alien to me, but I feel like they respect my culture as well. In politics, you see very few Iraqis or Iranians endlessly bitching about White people, for instance.

    Unfortunately, in the UK, most of their Muslims are South Asian, and Muslim/White relations are very contentious despite the low crime rates and fairly good socioeconomics that South Asians possess there. They(UK Muslims) have also infitrated American politics as well, with folks like Mehdi Hasan endlessly interfering in American politics, forcing their irritating opinions on the common folk.

    Indeed, most "resistance" Muslims you see in America today are South Asian in nature, while most of the Muslims at the target of the Alt-Right don't really get involved into politics as much.
    , @Saggy

    So, for us, Jewishness is an ethnicity like Balochi or Punjabi or Bosnian or Malay
     
    Note - I'm only replying because of your gold border ... and the fact that you are a Muslim ... so I wanted to see what you thought about things ... and most seems to be about the Muslim view of this and that which is I admit of no interest to me ... until we get to the subject of the Jews. And here your view is interesting because as I, just an educated hillbilly, see it the Jews in Israel are waging war against a large part of the Muslim population with their plans for a greater Israel, and they have enlisted the US to do their fighting for them, and millions of Muslims have been killed in the process and Muslim countries turned into killing fields ..... so naturally I would expect you to hate Jews. Instead you make the statement I quoted, which seems beyond stupid to me. So I'm wondering how in hell you got your gold border, and how you could be so sanguine about the Jews as they wage war against Muslims. In truth the entire Muslim world is a mystery to me as they allow themselves to be killed en masse without mounting any resistance at all, and in fact many collaborate with the Jews.
  59. There is a deficiency in English language re these terms. In most continental European languages it is different.

    So called ethnicity is actually a nationality. Ethnos is peoplehood, belonging to a certain group sharing the same culture, language, customs, identity…the same primary loyalty. People is extended tribe, and nation is a “mature” people.

    Ethnic groups are Basques, Ulster Scots, Provencals, …

    That said- Jews are a people, a separate people. They are also a separate nation, because their identity is Jewish, participating in historical Jewish culture & identity.

    Do American Jews belong to the American nation?

    I think that American nation does not exist anymore.

    What about white nationalism?

    There is no a “white nation”. Nations which are white are French, Dutch, Russian, Slovak,…

    Do Muslims or Buddhists belong to English or French nation/people? No, historically they’re different & do not share the same cultural/historical code.

    What about Muslim “nationalism”?

    There is no Muslim “nation”. Muslim peoples are historically retarded, similar to Hindu peoples, and they cannot be judged by European standards- unlike east Asians, who are doubtless peoples/nations (Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, ….).

    Is there an Arab nation? No. Jordanian, Saudi, Moroccan, ..? No.

    Iranian? Yes, because they have historical individuality, common destiny, language, culture, identity…

    Hindu nationalism? No. They are similar to Muslims, so their strong emotional attachment is like children’s, they’re not mature enough to be an individualized people. There is a Hindu collectivist radicalism, similar to radical Islamism- but these are theocratic, not modern national individual identities.

    There is no Swiss nation, no Belgian nation, no Ecuadorian nation, no Nigerian nation,..

    Nations are Chinese, Japanese, Iranians, Jews, English, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, Italians, Danes,…

    Pakistanis, Guatemalans, Algerians, Indians, Indonesians, Belgians, Canadians… are not nations.

    Wannabe or possible nations who may have existed, but their existence is problematic- Australians, Americans, Belarussians, Argentinians,…

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Nations are..."

    Chinese, Japanese, Iranians, English, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, Italians, Danes, Pakistanis, Guatemalans, Algerians, Indians, Indonesians, Belgians, Canadian, Australians, Americans, Belarussians, and Argentinians.

    They consist of different racial and ethic groups. It's reality.
    , @AaronB

    There is a deficiency in English language re these terms. In most continental European languages it is different.
     
    Pretty much.

    I think our language is limiting us when dealing with "multi-dimensional" phenomena. We need to break out of our box.

    And not just with regard to Jews. Our language is limiting us with regard to a whole host of phenomena that it can't define simply - intelligence, IQ, etc.
  60. @A123
    No one should get too worked up over the specifics. This is merely step #1 in the long game to devastate the current, anti-constitutional, SJW courts.

    The end game that the Trump administration is going for is to make 100% of the population fit in a 'protected' category. When everyone is a minority by law, no minority can be discriminated against. The result is... Gasp...

    Equality Under the Law

    Shocking. I know. But you have to neuter the SJW tyrants in the most effective way possible.

    MERRY CHRISTMAS 🎄

    “This is merely step #1 in the long game to devastate the current, anti-constitutional, SJW courts.”

    Trump doesn’t think of the “long game” in those terms.

  61. @Bardon Kaldian
    There is a deficiency in English language re these terms. In most continental European languages it is different.

    So called ethnicity is actually a nationality. Ethnos is peoplehood, belonging to a certain group sharing the same culture, language, customs, identity...the same primary loyalty. People is extended tribe, and nation is a "mature" people.

    Ethnic groups are Basques, Ulster Scots, Provencals, ...

    That said- Jews are a people, a separate people. They are also a separate nation, because their identity is Jewish, participating in historical Jewish culture & identity.

    Do American Jews belong to the American nation?

    I think that American nation does not exist anymore.

    What about white nationalism?

    There is no a "white nation". Nations which are white are French, Dutch, Russian, Slovak,...

    Do Muslims or Buddhists belong to English or French nation/people? No, historically they're different & do not share the same cultural/historical code.

    What about Muslim "nationalism"?

    There is no Muslim "nation". Muslim peoples are historically retarded, similar to Hindu peoples, and they cannot be judged by European standards- unlike east Asians, who are doubtless peoples/nations (Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, ....).

    Is there an Arab nation? No. Jordanian, Saudi, Moroccan, ..? No.

    Iranian? Yes, because they have historical individuality, common destiny, language, culture, identity...

    Hindu nationalism? No. They are similar to Muslims, so their strong emotional attachment is like children's, they're not mature enough to be an individualized people. There is a Hindu collectivist radicalism, similar to radical Islamism- but these are theocratic, not modern national individual identities.

    There is no Swiss nation, no Belgian nation, no Ecuadorian nation, no Nigerian nation,..

    Nations are Chinese, Japanese, Iranians, Jews, English, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, Italians, Danes,...

    Pakistanis, Guatemalans, Algerians, Indians, Indonesians, Belgians, Canadians... are not nations.

    Wannabe or possible nations who may have existed, but their existence is problematic- Australians, Americans, Belarussians, Argentinians,...

    “Nations are…”

    Chinese, Japanese, Iranians, English, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, Italians, Danes, Pakistanis, Guatemalans, Algerians, Indians, Indonesians, Belgians, Canadian, Australians, Americans, Belarussians, and Argentinians.

    They consist of different racial and ethic groups. It’s reality.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Chinese, Japanese, Iranians, English, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, Italians, Danes, Pakistanis, Guatemalans, Algerians, Indians, Indonesians, Belgians, Canadian, Australians, Americans, Belarussians, and Argentinians.
     
    These groups of people don't belong to the same category.

    Some are peoples (Chinese, Japanese,..) who share common primary loyalty & group identity.

    Some (Indonesians, Pakistanis, Algerians,..) are not peoples. They do not share common identity, loyalty etc. They only have citizenship of a state.

    So called United Nations should be better called United States, because these states or countries are not, mostly, nations.

    Nation comes from natus, being born, as in Slavic languages narod, from roditi, rodit'- to give birth. Nations are extended families, and not racially & culturally random assemblages under some f*cking law which can be changed.

    https://www.etymonline.com/word/nation

    nation (n.)

  62. @Bardon Kaldian
    There is a deficiency in English language re these terms. In most continental European languages it is different.

    So called ethnicity is actually a nationality. Ethnos is peoplehood, belonging to a certain group sharing the same culture, language, customs, identity...the same primary loyalty. People is extended tribe, and nation is a "mature" people.

    Ethnic groups are Basques, Ulster Scots, Provencals, ...

    That said- Jews are a people, a separate people. They are also a separate nation, because their identity is Jewish, participating in historical Jewish culture & identity.

    Do American Jews belong to the American nation?

    I think that American nation does not exist anymore.

    What about white nationalism?

    There is no a "white nation". Nations which are white are French, Dutch, Russian, Slovak,...

    Do Muslims or Buddhists belong to English or French nation/people? No, historically they're different & do not share the same cultural/historical code.

    What about Muslim "nationalism"?

    There is no Muslim "nation". Muslim peoples are historically retarded, similar to Hindu peoples, and they cannot be judged by European standards- unlike east Asians, who are doubtless peoples/nations (Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, ....).

    Is there an Arab nation? No. Jordanian, Saudi, Moroccan, ..? No.

    Iranian? Yes, because they have historical individuality, common destiny, language, culture, identity...

    Hindu nationalism? No. They are similar to Muslims, so their strong emotional attachment is like children's, they're not mature enough to be an individualized people. There is a Hindu collectivist radicalism, similar to radical Islamism- but these are theocratic, not modern national individual identities.

    There is no Swiss nation, no Belgian nation, no Ecuadorian nation, no Nigerian nation,..

    Nations are Chinese, Japanese, Iranians, Jews, English, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, Italians, Danes,...

    Pakistanis, Guatemalans, Algerians, Indians, Indonesians, Belgians, Canadians... are not nations.

    Wannabe or possible nations who may have existed, but their existence is problematic- Australians, Americans, Belarussians, Argentinians,...

    There is a deficiency in English language re these terms. In most continental European languages it is different.

    Pretty much.

    I think our language is limiting us when dealing with “multi-dimensional” phenomena. We need to break out of our box.

    And not just with regard to Jews. Our language is limiting us with regard to a whole host of phenomena that it can’t define simply – intelligence, IQ, etc.

  63. @Talha

    The problem with Jews is when a somewhat genetically and culturally different group get power in a country full of people who are non ethnocentric.
     
    I don't think this is particular to Jews to be honest. I have seen my own company's IT department get overwhelmed with Indians within a span of 5 years - it's a pretty incredible feat. I have asked my cousins and other Muslims I know in the field and they have reported similar occurrences. Furthermore, if you ask the people in Asia, they are far less worried about Jews than they are about powerful Chinese minorities.

    Thankfully that will never happen in a Muslim country, since people tend to be somewhat ethnocentric and possess a healthy amount of skepticism toward alien rulers.
     
    Yes, Muslims tend to still be more ethnocentric - we didn't do away with clans and tribes like the people of Europe did. This can often be a disadvantage or and advantage - depending on the situation. One thing the Muslim world had going for a long time was a prohibition on usury (which is often cornered by certain minorities) and this is something still looked down on, but is pretty ubiquitous since colonial times.

    Another difference is that Muslim-majority countries often officially make Islam the state religion which allows for certain restrictions as to who can climb the socio-political hierarchy to the top. Sometimes the key positions in government and military are restricted to Muslims only; this can be officially or simply because the Muslim population will not tolerate a non-Muslim in a key position and so the position is only theoretically open to others, but in practice is not. For instance, Pakistan has had some high level military folks like Christians attain to a first rank general in the army, but it is highly doubtful they will ever reach something like a five-star rank (and someone like me would advocate for a legal restriction on the position to only allow Muslims to fill it). So, the restriction is not simply for Jews, but rather anyone who isn't fully on board with your vision of society and could take it in a direction you don't want. For instance, it is highly doubtful you will ever see 3 Jewish Supreme Court justices like you have in the US (or even Buddhist or Christian ones - though, even a place like Pakistan has had at least one Christian one in the past). So full enfranchisement is really not an ethnic issue as much as it is a religious and ideological one. Anyone that becomes a brother in Islam, becomes part of the Ummah. In fact - and to keep with the examples out of Pakistani history - the first passport of Pakistan was actually made for a Jewish convert to Islam, Leopold Weiss (aka Muhammad Assad) and he was asked to help in drafting up the framework for the fledgling state (though the proposals never got off the drawing board, he did end up serving as part of its foreign ministry and at the UN):
    "With the 1947 partition of India Asad and his family became citizens of Pakistan, and Asad became a confidant and adviser to the founders of the new state. At the request of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the political founder of Pakistan, Asad compiled a document on 'suggestions for an Islamic Constitution for an Islamic State.' Soon after independence was declared, Jinnah established the DIR, the Department of Islamic Reconstruction, with Asad at its head. Among the DIR’s tasks: to draft Pakistan’s Constitution and to propose the frameworks of the new state’s educational and social systems, 'all along Islamic lines.' Asad drew up documents describing these plans and circulated them among Pakistan religious scholars....Also controversial was Asad’s proposal that the political rights of non-Muslims be enshrined in the constitution, though he agreed with the more conservative members of the Ulema that the head of government should be a Muslim."
    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/206221/jew-helped-invent-islamic-state

    So, for us, Jewishness is an ethnicity like Balochi or Punjabi or Bosnian or Malay, but they key is that the person has adopted the same overall worldview* and then details can always be negotiated based on merit. I personally wish the Pakistani government had implemented some more of his ideas, but that's history. Hope this helps.

    Peace.

    *Note, for instance that non-Muslim Europeans like the Brits and the French were forced out of leadership by the Egyptians while Muslim Europeans, like the Albanian, Muhammad Ali was able to establish a ruling dynasty there well into the mid-20th century until the military coup led by Nasser and Naguib brought the Arab socialists to power.

    It’s a good model. This is basically the Jewish/Israeli model.

    We have Arab ministers and Druze generals, but they could become Prime Ministers only in theory.

    • Replies: @Talha
    It's a pretty long-standing model - across a vast geography, various cultures and eras - and fairly flexible in application...even in the modern world with some appropriate adjustments and tweaking.

    Peace.
  64. @AaronB
    It's a good model. This is basically the Jewish/Israeli model.

    We have Arab ministers and Druze generals, but they could become Prime Ministers only in theory.

    It’s a pretty long-standing model – across a vast geography, various cultures and eras – and fairly flexible in application…even in the modern world with some appropriate adjustments and tweaking.

    Peace.

    • Agree: AaronB
  65. @Talha

    And liberals are absolutely determined that Muslims are going to be assimilated to liberal values.
     
    Which is what happened to the other religions and why traditional Muslims like myself are particularly interested in the dynamics of what happened to Jews and Christians and how we can avoid the same pitfalls. We were warned that we are very susceptible to the very same problems that plague them if we are not vigilant about it (the term we Muslims use colloquially is "down the lizard hole"):
    "'Verily, you will follow the path of those before you, step by step and inch by inch; if they entered the hole of a lizard, you would follow.' We asked, 'O Messenger of Allah, do you mean the Jews and Christians?' The Prophet said, 'Who else?'” - reported in both Bukhari and Muslim

    Peace.

    Muslims are quite happy to appropriate the trashier aspects of the kafir — soccer, K-Pop, flashy shopping malls — but are unable to integrate the higher aspects the infidel.

    The only true unassimilated Muslim is the illiterate Sunni Pakistani, sitting in his mud hut with his goats.

    • Replies: @Talha
    Thanks for your opinions on the subject of Muslims.

    Peace and have a safe New Years.
  66. @Nodwink
    Muslims are quite happy to appropriate the trashier aspects of the kafir -- soccer, K-Pop, flashy shopping malls -- but are unable to integrate the higher aspects the infidel.

    The only true unassimilated Muslim is the illiterate Sunni Pakistani, sitting in his mud hut with his goats.

    Thanks for your opinions on the subject of Muslims.

    Peace and have a safe New Years.

  67. @Corvinus
    "Nations are..."

    Chinese, Japanese, Iranians, English, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, Italians, Danes, Pakistanis, Guatemalans, Algerians, Indians, Indonesians, Belgians, Canadian, Australians, Americans, Belarussians, and Argentinians.

    They consist of different racial and ethic groups. It's reality.

    Chinese, Japanese, Iranians, English, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, Italians, Danes, Pakistanis, Guatemalans, Algerians, Indians, Indonesians, Belgians, Canadian, Australians, Americans, Belarussians, and Argentinians.

    These groups of people don’t belong to the same category.

    Some are peoples (Chinese, Japanese,..) who share common primary loyalty & group identity.

    Some (Indonesians, Pakistanis, Algerians,..) are not peoples. They do not share common identity, loyalty etc. They only have citizenship of a state.

    So called United Nations should be better called United States, because these states or countries are not, mostly, nations.

    Nation comes from natus, being born, as in Slavic languages narod, from roditi, rodit’- to give birth. Nations are extended families, and not racially & culturally random assemblages under some f*cking law which can be changed.

    https://www.etymonline.com/word/nation

    nation (n.)

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    All are nations. They consist of peoples. They are citizens of a state and generally share common traits. Of course some characteristics may be completely different. The United States in particular is an extended family. Remember, the nation of Great Britain was founded by a host of different and even competing peoples—Danes, Celts, Angles, Romans, etc.

    It’s who they are and who we are. We are Mutts. That’s not going to change despite your protests.
  68. @Bardon Kaldian

    Chinese, Japanese, Iranians, English, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, Italians, Danes, Pakistanis, Guatemalans, Algerians, Indians, Indonesians, Belgians, Canadian, Australians, Americans, Belarussians, and Argentinians.
     
    These groups of people don't belong to the same category.

    Some are peoples (Chinese, Japanese,..) who share common primary loyalty & group identity.

    Some (Indonesians, Pakistanis, Algerians,..) are not peoples. They do not share common identity, loyalty etc. They only have citizenship of a state.

    So called United Nations should be better called United States, because these states or countries are not, mostly, nations.

    Nation comes from natus, being born, as in Slavic languages narod, from roditi, rodit'- to give birth. Nations are extended families, and not racially & culturally random assemblages under some f*cking law which can be changed.

    https://www.etymonline.com/word/nation

    nation (n.)

    All are nations. They consist of peoples. They are citizens of a state and generally share common traits. Of course some characteristics may be completely different. The United States in particular is an extended family. Remember, the nation of Great Britain was founded by a host of different and even competing peoples—Danes, Celts, Angles, Romans, etc.

    It’s who they are and who we are. We are Mutts. That’s not going to change despite your protests.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    You're simply not capable of rational thought. You don't know meaning of words in English language. You project your own fantasies on the world & hear only echo of your meaningless words.

    Well- this is an answer. I don't see why would I (or any rational being of whichever opinion & persuasion) waste my time on you anymore.
  69. jews are half-White.

    “White” is a colloquial term referring to caucasians of European descent.

    Gene studies conclusively prove jews are a Semite founder population who mixed with Italians a long time ago. Jews are half-white, half-semite. Jewlattos.

  70. @Corvinus
    All are nations. They consist of peoples. They are citizens of a state and generally share common traits. Of course some characteristics may be completely different. The United States in particular is an extended family. Remember, the nation of Great Britain was founded by a host of different and even competing peoples—Danes, Celts, Angles, Romans, etc.

    It’s who they are and who we are. We are Mutts. That’s not going to change despite your protests.

    You’re simply not capable of rational thought. You don’t know meaning of words in English language. You project your own fantasies on the world & hear only echo of your meaningless words.

    Well- this is an answer. I don’t see why would I (or any rational being of whichever opinion & persuasion) waste my time on you anymore.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    Looks like you’re falling back to your old stand by—projection.

    I know exactly the meaning of words like nation, ethnicity, and culture. You just don’t like the fact how I am employing them in a logical, coherent fashion.

    For example, you do realize that they are 55 recognized groups in China. How do they share a common primary loyalty and group identity?
  71. @Bardon Kaldian
    You're simply not capable of rational thought. You don't know meaning of words in English language. You project your own fantasies on the world & hear only echo of your meaningless words.

    Well- this is an answer. I don't see why would I (or any rational being of whichever opinion & persuasion) waste my time on you anymore.

    Looks like you’re falling back to your old stand by—projection.

    I know exactly the meaning of words like nation, ethnicity, and culture. You just don’t like the fact how I am employing them in a logical, coherent fashion.

    For example, you do realize that they are 55 recognized groups in China. How do they share a common primary loyalty and group identity?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    You just don’t like the fact how I am employing them in a logical, coherent fashion.
     
    https://media2.giphy.com/media/3oEjHAUOqG3lSS0f1C/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611088950fabc42f7030d8823fbb984896123f9a18d&rid=giphy.gif
  72. @Corvinus
    Looks like you’re falling back to your old stand by—projection.

    I know exactly the meaning of words like nation, ethnicity, and culture. You just don’t like the fact how I am employing them in a logical, coherent fashion.

    For example, you do realize that they are 55 recognized groups in China. How do they share a common primary loyalty and group identity?

    You just don’t like the fact how I am employing them in a logical, coherent fashion.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    Great cartoon.

    Now answer the question. You said China is a nation. So how do 55 recognized groups in China share a common primary loyalty and group identity?

    How about France? Their ancient peoples consisted of the Gauls, Franks, Bretons, Celtic, Visigoths, Burgundians, and others. Did they form a nation? Why or why not?

  73. @Bardon Kaldian

    You just don’t like the fact how I am employing them in a logical, coherent fashion.
     
    https://media2.giphy.com/media/3oEjHAUOqG3lSS0f1C/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611088950fabc42f7030d8823fbb984896123f9a18d&rid=giphy.gif

    Great cartoon.

    Now answer the question. You said China is a nation. So how do 55 recognized groups in China share a common primary loyalty and group identity?

    How about France? Their ancient peoples consisted of the Gauls, Franks, Bretons, Celtic, Visigoths, Burgundians, and others. Did they form a nation? Why or why not?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    Recognized groups in China differ. Some are just primitive tribes on the level of American Indian "nations", while others, like Uyghurs or Tibetans are real nations which are occupied by Chinese imperialism.

    Anyway, Uyghurs, Mongols or Tibetans loathe Chinese occupation & are not a part of a Chinese "nation" in any meaningful sense of the word. If they could, they would have wiped out the Chinese from the face of the earth.

    Franks, Gauls,...-are you serious? This is something 1000 or 2o00 years ago. I mean... Really, clueless.
  74. @Corvinus
    Great cartoon.

    Now answer the question. You said China is a nation. So how do 55 recognized groups in China share a common primary loyalty and group identity?

    How about France? Their ancient peoples consisted of the Gauls, Franks, Bretons, Celtic, Visigoths, Burgundians, and others. Did they form a nation? Why or why not?

    Recognized groups in China differ. Some are just primitive tribes on the level of American Indian “nations”, while others, like Uyghurs or Tibetans are real nations which are occupied by Chinese imperialism.

    Anyway, Uyghurs, Mongols or Tibetans loathe Chinese occupation & are not a part of a Chinese “nation” in any meaningful sense of the word. If they could, they would have wiped out the Chinese from the face of the earth.

    Franks, Gauls,…-are you serious? This is something 1000 or 2o00 years ago. I mean… Really, clueless.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    The recognized groups in China are part of the Chinese nation.

    What are your metrics for “primitive” groups?

    The American Indians were indeed separate nations.

    Yes, I’m serious about the different groups like the Gauls, Visigoths, and Bretons that formed France. Where do they fit into your scheme here? Were they separate nations? Different ethnic groups? Did they not collectively forge a new nation?

  75. @Talha

    The problem with Jews is when a somewhat genetically and culturally different group get power in a country full of people who are non ethnocentric.
     
    I don't think this is particular to Jews to be honest. I have seen my own company's IT department get overwhelmed with Indians within a span of 5 years - it's a pretty incredible feat. I have asked my cousins and other Muslims I know in the field and they have reported similar occurrences. Furthermore, if you ask the people in Asia, they are far less worried about Jews than they are about powerful Chinese minorities.

    Thankfully that will never happen in a Muslim country, since people tend to be somewhat ethnocentric and possess a healthy amount of skepticism toward alien rulers.
     
    Yes, Muslims tend to still be more ethnocentric - we didn't do away with clans and tribes like the people of Europe did. This can often be a disadvantage or and advantage - depending on the situation. One thing the Muslim world had going for a long time was a prohibition on usury (which is often cornered by certain minorities) and this is something still looked down on, but is pretty ubiquitous since colonial times.

    Another difference is that Muslim-majority countries often officially make Islam the state religion which allows for certain restrictions as to who can climb the socio-political hierarchy to the top. Sometimes the key positions in government and military are restricted to Muslims only; this can be officially or simply because the Muslim population will not tolerate a non-Muslim in a key position and so the position is only theoretically open to others, but in practice is not. For instance, Pakistan has had some high level military folks like Christians attain to a first rank general in the army, but it is highly doubtful they will ever reach something like a five-star rank (and someone like me would advocate for a legal restriction on the position to only allow Muslims to fill it). So, the restriction is not simply for Jews, but rather anyone who isn't fully on board with your vision of society and could take it in a direction you don't want. For instance, it is highly doubtful you will ever see 3 Jewish Supreme Court justices like you have in the US (or even Buddhist or Christian ones - though, even a place like Pakistan has had at least one Christian one in the past). So full enfranchisement is really not an ethnic issue as much as it is a religious and ideological one. Anyone that becomes a brother in Islam, becomes part of the Ummah. In fact - and to keep with the examples out of Pakistani history - the first passport of Pakistan was actually made for a Jewish convert to Islam, Leopold Weiss (aka Muhammad Assad) and he was asked to help in drafting up the framework for the fledgling state (though the proposals never got off the drawing board, he did end up serving as part of its foreign ministry and at the UN):
    "With the 1947 partition of India Asad and his family became citizens of Pakistan, and Asad became a confidant and adviser to the founders of the new state. At the request of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the political founder of Pakistan, Asad compiled a document on 'suggestions for an Islamic Constitution for an Islamic State.' Soon after independence was declared, Jinnah established the DIR, the Department of Islamic Reconstruction, with Asad at its head. Among the DIR’s tasks: to draft Pakistan’s Constitution and to propose the frameworks of the new state’s educational and social systems, 'all along Islamic lines.' Asad drew up documents describing these plans and circulated them among Pakistan religious scholars....Also controversial was Asad’s proposal that the political rights of non-Muslims be enshrined in the constitution, though he agreed with the more conservative members of the Ulema that the head of government should be a Muslim."
    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/206221/jew-helped-invent-islamic-state

    So, for us, Jewishness is an ethnicity like Balochi or Punjabi or Bosnian or Malay, but they key is that the person has adopted the same overall worldview* and then details can always be negotiated based on merit. I personally wish the Pakistani government had implemented some more of his ideas, but that's history. Hope this helps.

    Peace.

    *Note, for instance that non-Muslim Europeans like the Brits and the French were forced out of leadership by the Egyptians while Muslim Europeans, like the Albanian, Muhammad Ali was able to establish a ruling dynasty there well into the mid-20th century until the military coup led by Nasser and Naguib brought the Arab socialists to power.

    Great post,
    Islam in many cases gives the disparate groups something common to believe in, just like Christanity did in the early days of what would become modern Europe. I find that Islam really varies depending on the people, and is less influential than folks on the Right would want to state.

    For instance, Islam in Europe, and South East Asia is very peaceful, and can easily coexist among various groups, and this is due to the lack of ethnocentricity among the ethnic people there. The opposite is true in South Asia, which is unfortunately dealing with the problems that high ethnocentricity creates.

    I find that your observation of Indians in Silicon Valley is entirely accurate. I have seen high levels of ethnocentricity in that group, and am uncomfortable with additional immigration from them, despite their great smarts.

    For instance, an amusing situation is between the United States and Britain. Our Muslims are mostly Middle Eastern in origin(probably refugees), with very few from Pakistan and India, and tend to very non ethnocentric. Some of their cultures are alien to me, but I feel like they respect my culture as well. In politics, you see very few Iraqis or Iranians endlessly bitching about White people, for instance.

    Unfortunately, in the UK, most of their Muslims are South Asian, and Muslim/White relations are very contentious despite the low crime rates and fairly good socioeconomics that South Asians possess there. They(UK Muslims) have also infitrated American politics as well, with folks like Mehdi Hasan endlessly interfering in American politics, forcing their irritating opinions on the common folk.

    Indeed, most “resistance” Muslims you see in America today are South Asian in nature, while most of the Muslims at the target of the Alt-Right don’t really get involved into politics as much.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    It is not about "good" or "bad".

    1. a people can not belong to two or more different religious civilizations. There is not real people on earth belonging to both Western Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism etc. Bengalis, in that sense, are not a real people. So called Bengali renaissance is completely Hindu.

    2. Islam means different high, middle & low culture. It means different calendar, law, diet, dress, cultural codes, music, literature...everything. Of course that cultured Muslims know & appreciate something that comes from others, but, Western culture is, more or less- unified.

    You got sonnets, mythology, Greeks & Romans, symphonies, novels, paintings, sculptures, architecture, history writing... Classicism, Romanticism, Realism, Expressionism... all the way from Russia to North America. Cultural codes mean Antiquity & Christianity as cultural areas. That's what you lean in school.

    And that, Islam (Buddhism, Hinduism,..) definitely-is not.
    , @Talha

    I find that Islam really varies depending on the people
     
    No doubt about this. A recently-nomadic and tribal people will not have expression as a deeply urban and non-tribal culture.

    most “resistance” Muslims you see in America today are South Asian in nature
     
    I can see this, though the Arabs have a fair share as well.

    while most of the Muslims at the target of the Alt-Right don’t really get involved into politics as much.
     
    Well, any time the US is brought up, it simply has to be pointed out that the biggest current cohesive Muslim demographic are the African Americans. Immigrants are close to them, but they come from all over the place. Also, Latino Muslims are absolutely crushing the numbers. Some estimates have projected their growth at 700% within the last ten years - it is absolutely the fastest growing demographic we have - so that will bring another dynamic into the mix, but we'll have to see what that will be.

    Peace.
  76. @John Arthur
    Great post,
    Islam in many cases gives the disparate groups something common to believe in, just like Christanity did in the early days of what would become modern Europe. I find that Islam really varies depending on the people, and is less influential than folks on the Right would want to state.

    For instance, Islam in Europe, and South East Asia is very peaceful, and can easily coexist among various groups, and this is due to the lack of ethnocentricity among the ethnic people there. The opposite is true in South Asia, which is unfortunately dealing with the problems that high ethnocentricity creates.

    I find that your observation of Indians in Silicon Valley is entirely accurate. I have seen high levels of ethnocentricity in that group, and am uncomfortable with additional immigration from them, despite their great smarts.

    For instance, an amusing situation is between the United States and Britain. Our Muslims are mostly Middle Eastern in origin(probably refugees), with very few from Pakistan and India, and tend to very non ethnocentric. Some of their cultures are alien to me, but I feel like they respect my culture as well. In politics, you see very few Iraqis or Iranians endlessly bitching about White people, for instance.

    Unfortunately, in the UK, most of their Muslims are South Asian, and Muslim/White relations are very contentious despite the low crime rates and fairly good socioeconomics that South Asians possess there. They(UK Muslims) have also infitrated American politics as well, with folks like Mehdi Hasan endlessly interfering in American politics, forcing their irritating opinions on the common folk.

    Indeed, most "resistance" Muslims you see in America today are South Asian in nature, while most of the Muslims at the target of the Alt-Right don't really get involved into politics as much.

    It is not about “good” or “bad”.

    1. a people can not belong to two or more different religious civilizations. There is not real people on earth belonging to both Western Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism etc. Bengalis, in that sense, are not a real people. So called Bengali renaissance is completely Hindu.

    2. Islam means different high, middle & low culture. It means different calendar, law, diet, dress, cultural codes, music, literature…everything. Of course that cultured Muslims know & appreciate something that comes from others, but, Western culture is, more or less- unified.

    You got sonnets, mythology, Greeks & Romans, symphonies, novels, paintings, sculptures, architecture, history writing… Classicism, Romanticism, Realism, Expressionism… all the way from Russia to North America. Cultural codes mean Antiquity & Christianity as cultural areas. That’s what you lean in school.

    And that, Islam (Buddhism, Hinduism,..) definitely-is not.

  77. @Bardon Kaldian
    Recognized groups in China differ. Some are just primitive tribes on the level of American Indian "nations", while others, like Uyghurs or Tibetans are real nations which are occupied by Chinese imperialism.

    Anyway, Uyghurs, Mongols or Tibetans loathe Chinese occupation & are not a part of a Chinese "nation" in any meaningful sense of the word. If they could, they would have wiped out the Chinese from the face of the earth.

    Franks, Gauls,...-are you serious? This is something 1000 or 2o00 years ago. I mean... Really, clueless.

    The recognized groups in China are part of the Chinese nation.

    What are your metrics for “primitive” groups?

    The American Indians were indeed separate nations.

    Yes, I’m serious about the different groups like the Gauls, Visigoths, and Bretons that formed France. Where do they fit into your scheme here? Were they separate nations? Different ethnic groups? Did they not collectively forge a new nation?

  78. @Intelligent Dasein
    80% of Americans consider Judaism to be a religion yet only 26% of Jews firmly believe in God. Ironic, isn't it?

    I suppose the 80% are right in a sense: Judaism is a religion, just not one that anybody believes anymore.

    Yet this was the only thing keeping Jews distinct as a group. Without their religion they will simply fade away into the general population. I venture that, with numbers like these, we have pretty much seen the last of Judaism as an historically significant force in the West.

    A corollary is that it cannot be Jews who are causing all the problems, and those who keep bitching about them as if that were the case need to critically reexamine what's going on.

    Judaism is a religion, just not one that anybody believes anymore.

    Ilan Pappe expressed this phenomenon (for a key subset of Red Sea Pedestrians):

    Most Zionists don’t believe that god exists, but they do believe that he promised them Palestine.

    Also, there’s plenty of fraud (((as usual))). A lot of ‘atheist’ Jews still mutilate their male children, have religious icons in their houses (e.g., a menorah), and celebrate (fictional) ethnocentric episodes of primitive brutality (e.g., Purim).

    They’re ‘fake-atheists’ – they want unmerited social kudos from the Smart Fraction, for being smart enough to slough off primitive ahistorical nonsense. They pretend to hold Enlightenment values while privately perpetuating the primitive practices of their Blut und Rasse cult.

    It’s like claiming to be atheist but going to confession, saying rosaries, and having a picture of Blonde Jesus on the wall.

    • Agree: AaronB
  79. @Oblivionrecurs
    I know a lot of atheistic jews who stick with the religion because of cultural identity, unity, and certain events do spark a deep spiritual sensation.

    In my experience Ashkenazi Jews are most likely to identify with race, my roomie is an Ashkenazi jew and frequently talks about race genetics and the superiority of the Jewish people. You'd think he was a Nazi oy vey.

    Race genetics and superiority? You try red-pilling him?

  80. @Oblivionrecurs
    I know a lot of atheistic jews who stick with the religion because of cultural identity, unity, and certain events do spark a deep spiritual sensation.

    In my experience Ashkenazi Jews are most likely to identify with race, my roomie is an Ashkenazi jew and frequently talks about race genetics and the superiority of the Jewish people. You'd think he was a Nazi oy vey.

    “You’d think he was a Nazi oy vey.”

    The National Socialist German Workers Party and its program was a reaction to Jewish racial supremacism.

    The only reason we Whites don’t refer to the Jews as they are – i.e. racial supremacists for thousands of years – is because of gaslighting by Jew media.

    The Jewish century was the century of lies and gaslighting, and that century is in overtime as we write.

  81. @John Arthur
    Great post,
    Islam in many cases gives the disparate groups something common to believe in, just like Christanity did in the early days of what would become modern Europe. I find that Islam really varies depending on the people, and is less influential than folks on the Right would want to state.

    For instance, Islam in Europe, and South East Asia is very peaceful, and can easily coexist among various groups, and this is due to the lack of ethnocentricity among the ethnic people there. The opposite is true in South Asia, which is unfortunately dealing with the problems that high ethnocentricity creates.

    I find that your observation of Indians in Silicon Valley is entirely accurate. I have seen high levels of ethnocentricity in that group, and am uncomfortable with additional immigration from them, despite their great smarts.

    For instance, an amusing situation is between the United States and Britain. Our Muslims are mostly Middle Eastern in origin(probably refugees), with very few from Pakistan and India, and tend to very non ethnocentric. Some of their cultures are alien to me, but I feel like they respect my culture as well. In politics, you see very few Iraqis or Iranians endlessly bitching about White people, for instance.

    Unfortunately, in the UK, most of their Muslims are South Asian, and Muslim/White relations are very contentious despite the low crime rates and fairly good socioeconomics that South Asians possess there. They(UK Muslims) have also infitrated American politics as well, with folks like Mehdi Hasan endlessly interfering in American politics, forcing their irritating opinions on the common folk.

    Indeed, most "resistance" Muslims you see in America today are South Asian in nature, while most of the Muslims at the target of the Alt-Right don't really get involved into politics as much.

    I find that Islam really varies depending on the people

    No doubt about this. A recently-nomadic and tribal people will not have expression as a deeply urban and non-tribal culture.

    most “resistance” Muslims you see in America today are South Asian in nature

    I can see this, though the Arabs have a fair share as well.

    while most of the Muslims at the target of the Alt-Right don’t really get involved into politics as much.

    Well, any time the US is brought up, it simply has to be pointed out that the biggest current cohesive Muslim demographic are the African Americans. Immigrants are close to them, but they come from all over the place. Also, Latino Muslims are absolutely crushing the numbers. Some estimates have projected their growth at 700% within the last ten years – it is absolutely the fastest growing demographic we have – so that will bring another dynamic into the mix, but we’ll have to see what that will be.

    Peace.

  82. @Talha

    The problem with Jews is when a somewhat genetically and culturally different group get power in a country full of people who are non ethnocentric.
     
    I don't think this is particular to Jews to be honest. I have seen my own company's IT department get overwhelmed with Indians within a span of 5 years - it's a pretty incredible feat. I have asked my cousins and other Muslims I know in the field and they have reported similar occurrences. Furthermore, if you ask the people in Asia, they are far less worried about Jews than they are about powerful Chinese minorities.

    Thankfully that will never happen in a Muslim country, since people tend to be somewhat ethnocentric and possess a healthy amount of skepticism toward alien rulers.
     
    Yes, Muslims tend to still be more ethnocentric - we didn't do away with clans and tribes like the people of Europe did. This can often be a disadvantage or and advantage - depending on the situation. One thing the Muslim world had going for a long time was a prohibition on usury (which is often cornered by certain minorities) and this is something still looked down on, but is pretty ubiquitous since colonial times.

    Another difference is that Muslim-majority countries often officially make Islam the state religion which allows for certain restrictions as to who can climb the socio-political hierarchy to the top. Sometimes the key positions in government and military are restricted to Muslims only; this can be officially or simply because the Muslim population will not tolerate a non-Muslim in a key position and so the position is only theoretically open to others, but in practice is not. For instance, Pakistan has had some high level military folks like Christians attain to a first rank general in the army, but it is highly doubtful they will ever reach something like a five-star rank (and someone like me would advocate for a legal restriction on the position to only allow Muslims to fill it). So, the restriction is not simply for Jews, but rather anyone who isn't fully on board with your vision of society and could take it in a direction you don't want. For instance, it is highly doubtful you will ever see 3 Jewish Supreme Court justices like you have in the US (or even Buddhist or Christian ones - though, even a place like Pakistan has had at least one Christian one in the past). So full enfranchisement is really not an ethnic issue as much as it is a religious and ideological one. Anyone that becomes a brother in Islam, becomes part of the Ummah. In fact - and to keep with the examples out of Pakistani history - the first passport of Pakistan was actually made for a Jewish convert to Islam, Leopold Weiss (aka Muhammad Assad) and he was asked to help in drafting up the framework for the fledgling state (though the proposals never got off the drawing board, he did end up serving as part of its foreign ministry and at the UN):
    "With the 1947 partition of India Asad and his family became citizens of Pakistan, and Asad became a confidant and adviser to the founders of the new state. At the request of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the political founder of Pakistan, Asad compiled a document on 'suggestions for an Islamic Constitution for an Islamic State.' Soon after independence was declared, Jinnah established the DIR, the Department of Islamic Reconstruction, with Asad at its head. Among the DIR’s tasks: to draft Pakistan’s Constitution and to propose the frameworks of the new state’s educational and social systems, 'all along Islamic lines.' Asad drew up documents describing these plans and circulated them among Pakistan religious scholars....Also controversial was Asad’s proposal that the political rights of non-Muslims be enshrined in the constitution, though he agreed with the more conservative members of the Ulema that the head of government should be a Muslim."
    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/206221/jew-helped-invent-islamic-state

    So, for us, Jewishness is an ethnicity like Balochi or Punjabi or Bosnian or Malay, but they key is that the person has adopted the same overall worldview* and then details can always be negotiated based on merit. I personally wish the Pakistani government had implemented some more of his ideas, but that's history. Hope this helps.

    Peace.

    *Note, for instance that non-Muslim Europeans like the Brits and the French were forced out of leadership by the Egyptians while Muslim Europeans, like the Albanian, Muhammad Ali was able to establish a ruling dynasty there well into the mid-20th century until the military coup led by Nasser and Naguib brought the Arab socialists to power.

    So, for us, Jewishness is an ethnicity like Balochi or Punjabi or Bosnian or Malay

    Note – I’m only replying because of your gold border … and the fact that you are a Muslim … so I wanted to see what you thought about things … and most seems to be about the Muslim view of this and that which is I admit of no interest to me … until we get to the subject of the Jews. And here your view is interesting because as I, just an educated hillbilly, see it the Jews in Israel are waging war against a large part of the Muslim population with their plans for a greater Israel, and they have enlisted the US to do their fighting for them, and millions of Muslims have been killed in the process and Muslim countries turned into killing fields ….. so naturally I would expect you to hate Jews. Instead you make the statement I quoted, which seems beyond stupid to me. So I’m wondering how in hell you got your gold border, and how you could be so sanguine about the Jews as they wage war against Muslims. In truth the entire Muslim world is a mystery to me as they allow themselves to be killed en masse without mounting any resistance at all, and in fact many collaborate with the Jews.

    • Replies: @Talha

    I would expect you to hate Jews
     
    Well, I'm no friend of Israel. I just don't understand why a relatively recent problematic nation-state founded by atheist ethno-nationalist Jews should force me to throw out all of shared history with Jews living scattered across many Muslim lands. I don't particularly feel like I should lump all Jews together any more than I want others to lump all Muslims together with groups like Daesh or the Saudi ruling elite, etc.

    In truth the entire Muslim world is a mystery to me as they allow themselves to be killed en masse without mounting any resistance at all, and in fact many collaborate with the Jews.
     
    Well, you answered your own question right there.

    I had this to say on the subject:

    Israel is really only a symptom of the bigger disease of disunity in our Ummah. The Zionists would have never been able to take on the traditional defenders of that region; the Ottomans. Ottoman garrisons repelled the Brits twice when they tried to invade Gaza, they only succeeded a third time once they had convinced the Arabs to help disrupt the Ottoman supply lines. The Arabs revolted and we now have the mess on our hands that we do – file under: “Own goal”:
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjP3sZ1V4AEu95l.jpg
    That’s OK – we had similar issues with disunity and backstabbing during the Crusades. It was only when the Latin’s disunity and backstabbing eclipsed ours, that we were actually able to turn the tide. We’ll eventually learn that lesson again, we have time, not going anywhere and Allah swt reserves the right to humiliate His servants at the hands of others until they learn their lesson and turn themselves around:
    “O you who believe! When you encounter a force, then be steadfast, and remember Allah abundantly, that you may be successful. And obey Allah and His Messenger; and fall into no disputes, lest you lose heart and your power depart. And be patient and persevering, for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.” (8:45-46)

    All on us to fix. Whining is a cop out and waste of time.
     
    That's why you won't find me complaining about "Da Joos" all the time. The Muslims could easily resolve all the problems involved with Israel and bring her to the table as of yesterday if we stopped acting stupid and did what we were supposed to be doing.

    Peace.
  83. The late conservative rabbi Jacob Neusner explained how to become a non-Jew: “Jews who practice Christianity cease to be part of the ethnic Jewish community, while those who practice Buddhism remain within.” So being a Jew is not a religious category except in the negative sense that no Jew can be considered a Jew in any sense (by other Jews) if he becomes a Christian.

  84. @Saggy

    So, for us, Jewishness is an ethnicity like Balochi or Punjabi or Bosnian or Malay
     
    Note - I'm only replying because of your gold border ... and the fact that you are a Muslim ... so I wanted to see what you thought about things ... and most seems to be about the Muslim view of this and that which is I admit of no interest to me ... until we get to the subject of the Jews. And here your view is interesting because as I, just an educated hillbilly, see it the Jews in Israel are waging war against a large part of the Muslim population with their plans for a greater Israel, and they have enlisted the US to do their fighting for them, and millions of Muslims have been killed in the process and Muslim countries turned into killing fields ..... so naturally I would expect you to hate Jews. Instead you make the statement I quoted, which seems beyond stupid to me. So I'm wondering how in hell you got your gold border, and how you could be so sanguine about the Jews as they wage war against Muslims. In truth the entire Muslim world is a mystery to me as they allow themselves to be killed en masse without mounting any resistance at all, and in fact many collaborate with the Jews.

    I would expect you to hate Jews

    Well, I’m no friend of Israel. I just don’t understand why a relatively recent problematic nation-state founded by atheist ethno-nationalist Jews should force me to throw out all of shared history with Jews living scattered across many Muslim lands. I don’t particularly feel like I should lump all Jews together any more than I want others to lump all Muslims together with groups like Daesh or the Saudi ruling elite, etc.

    In truth the entire Muslim world is a mystery to me as they allow themselves to be killed en masse without mounting any resistance at all, and in fact many collaborate with the Jews.

    Well, you answered your own question right there.

    I had this to say on the subject:

    Israel is really only a symptom of the bigger disease of disunity in our Ummah. The Zionists would have never been able to take on the traditional defenders of that region; the Ottomans. Ottoman garrisons repelled the Brits twice when they tried to invade Gaza, they only succeeded a third time once they had convinced the Arabs to help disrupt the Ottoman supply lines. The Arabs revolted and we now have the mess on our hands that we do – file under: “Own goal”:

    That’s OK – we had similar issues with disunity and backstabbing during the Crusades. It was only when the Latin’s disunity and backstabbing eclipsed ours, that we were actually able to turn the tide. We’ll eventually learn that lesson again, we have time, not going anywhere and Allah swt reserves the right to humiliate His servants at the hands of others until they learn their lesson and turn themselves around:
    “O you who believe! When you encounter a force, then be steadfast, and remember Allah abundantly, that you may be successful. And obey Allah and His Messenger; and fall into no disputes, lest you lose heart and your power depart. And be patient and persevering, for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.” (8:45-46)

    All on us to fix. Whining is a cop out and waste of time.

    That’s why you won’t find me complaining about “Da Joos” all the time. The Muslims could easily resolve all the problems involved with Israel and bring her to the table as of yesterday if we stopped acting stupid and did what we were supposed to be doing.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
    That’s why you won’t find me complaining about “Da Joos” all the time.

    Me neither, Talha, and there is much to appreciate in the contributions made by Jews to "our" culture.

    For example, Jewish comedy is cosmic and can't be touched.

    Just this morning I read an op-ed by a Jewish writer non-ironically praising the wonders of diverse America in a medium long dominated by a disproportionate non-diverse stratum.

    Anyway, congrats on being among the select and keep up the good work in order to "earn your keep."
    , @Audacious Epigone
    I was scrolling past the cartoon ready to chime in about the crusader states and how the Kingdom of Jerusalem's highly improbable creation was in large part a consequence of Muslim disunity. By the time of the third crusade, the Islamic world was largely united under Saladin while the Latins, after Richard bested Saladin in the field, had to return to a very disunited Christian Europe lest he lose his kingdom.
  85. @Talha

    I would expect you to hate Jews
     
    Well, I'm no friend of Israel. I just don't understand why a relatively recent problematic nation-state founded by atheist ethno-nationalist Jews should force me to throw out all of shared history with Jews living scattered across many Muslim lands. I don't particularly feel like I should lump all Jews together any more than I want others to lump all Muslims together with groups like Daesh or the Saudi ruling elite, etc.

    In truth the entire Muslim world is a mystery to me as they allow themselves to be killed en masse without mounting any resistance at all, and in fact many collaborate with the Jews.
     
    Well, you answered your own question right there.

    I had this to say on the subject:

    Israel is really only a symptom of the bigger disease of disunity in our Ummah. The Zionists would have never been able to take on the traditional defenders of that region; the Ottomans. Ottoman garrisons repelled the Brits twice when they tried to invade Gaza, they only succeeded a third time once they had convinced the Arabs to help disrupt the Ottoman supply lines. The Arabs revolted and we now have the mess on our hands that we do – file under: “Own goal”:
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjP3sZ1V4AEu95l.jpg
    That’s OK – we had similar issues with disunity and backstabbing during the Crusades. It was only when the Latin’s disunity and backstabbing eclipsed ours, that we were actually able to turn the tide. We’ll eventually learn that lesson again, we have time, not going anywhere and Allah swt reserves the right to humiliate His servants at the hands of others until they learn their lesson and turn themselves around:
    “O you who believe! When you encounter a force, then be steadfast, and remember Allah abundantly, that you may be successful. And obey Allah and His Messenger; and fall into no disputes, lest you lose heart and your power depart. And be patient and persevering, for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.” (8:45-46)

    All on us to fix. Whining is a cop out and waste of time.
     
    That's why you won't find me complaining about "Da Joos" all the time. The Muslims could easily resolve all the problems involved with Israel and bring her to the table as of yesterday if we stopped acting stupid and did what we were supposed to be doing.

    Peace.

    That’s why you won’t find me complaining about “Da Joos” all the time.

    Me neither, Talha, and there is much to appreciate in the contributions made by Jews to “our” culture.

    For example, Jewish comedy is cosmic and can’t be touched.

    Just this morning I read an op-ed by a Jewish writer non-ironically praising the wonders of diverse America in a medium long dominated by a disproportionate non-diverse stratum.

    Anyway, congrats on being among the select and keep up the good work in order to “earn your keep.”

    • Replies: @Talha

    For example, Jewish comedy is cosmic
     
    Yes. I loved the Marx brothers, even as a teenager.

    Anyway, congrats
     
    Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm just humbled that people like yourself and others read my comments.

    Peace.
  86. @iffen
    That’s why you won’t find me complaining about “Da Joos” all the time.

    Me neither, Talha, and there is much to appreciate in the contributions made by Jews to "our" culture.

    For example, Jewish comedy is cosmic and can't be touched.

    Just this morning I read an op-ed by a Jewish writer non-ironically praising the wonders of diverse America in a medium long dominated by a disproportionate non-diverse stratum.

    Anyway, congrats on being among the select and keep up the good work in order to "earn your keep."

    For example, Jewish comedy is cosmic

    Yes. I loved the Marx brothers, even as a teenager.

    Anyway, congrats

    Thanks, I appreciate it. I’m just humbled that people like yourself and others read my comments.

    Peace.

  87. @songbird
    I'm under the impression that there are relatively more Jewish mulattoes than one would expect, when compared to white Christians marrying blacks. Is it a true observation? And if so, is it because Jews are more urban, or some other reason?

    As to classification, the strategic ideal would be that Jews would be treated as their own group separate from whites, so they'll be hurt by affirmative action, instead of championing it. Though I realize that might not be politically possible.

    Indeed. If white Jews were evaluated separately from white gentiles for consideration of entry into elite institutions, they’d be hurt even more than Asians are. Instead, it is mostly white gentiles (and Asians) who pay the affirmative action price.

  88. @Jay Fink
    It is as an ethnicity and religion. Genetic testing companies can easily detect it. I test 99.3% Ashkenazi but I don' t consider it my religion.

    Would you identify, then, if asked, as ethnically Jewish and religiously unaffiliated?

  89. @AaronB
    Certain phenomena do not easily lend themselves to being put into sharp and clear categories like scientific types like to do.

    Generally, these scientific types simply ignore these kinds of fuzzy phenomena, or more commonly, pretend they don't exist.

    Unfortunately, Jews are just a bit too visible to ignore or pretend they don't exist, leading to much angst and hand wringing among the sciency types as their usual way of thinking doesn't work.

    Judaism was not created by someone sitting down and logically coming up with a set of principles - it would be more accurate to say that it grew, like a tree. It represents a different kind of order than that of science, so sharp scientific categories are not the best way to understand it. It's more like poetry and art. It belongs to the imaginative side of things, which science isn't good at understanding.

    Judaism generally does not exclusively choose one side on any question - it does not choose racism exclusively nor does it choose its opposite exclusively. It does not define itself exclusively by religion or exclusively by nationhood.

    The scientific way of thinking, however, is to make exclusive, one sided choices - because only that way can you get absolutely clear definitions. And science is concerned with absolute clarity.

    To understand anything about Judaism, its important to realize that a) clarity is not its overriding concern b) it rarely if ever chooses one side on any question c) one might say it rejects the binary way of thinking.

    To understand anything about Judaism, its important to realize that a) clarity is not its overriding concern b) it rarely if ever chooses one side on any question c) one might say it rejects the binary way of thinking.

    The substance notwithstanding (heh!), that is lucid and concise. Thanks.

    It is easy to see how this gets uncharitably interpreted as a formula for perpetual subversion. While I wouldn’t expect you to think that is fair, do you think it is understandable?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    To be honest, it's a very similar approach to traditional Chinese and Japanese ways of thinking - it's the old yin and yang kind of thinking, where the feminine principle and the male principle are both necessary and equal in every situation.

    I accept that this can be very frustrating for people who have completely assimilated the modern Western binary way of thinking - Arthur Kostler, a Jew btw, wrote a very interesting book on Japan, called the Lotus and the Robot, in which he expressed his supreme frustration amounting to disgust at the unwillingnes of the Japanese to take clear sides and make clear denunciations, etc.

    Many Westerners in Asia are driven nuts by what they see as the vagueness of Asian thinking - but it's really just a holistic approach, in which all sides in any situation are considered to have some level of validity.

    Most traditional cultures think this way, even pre-modern Europe. It is a natural corollary of Jewish monotheism - a God who created everything, created a proper place for everything.

    That's why the Jewish attitude to racism is so puzzling to many modern Westerners - some people will insist Judaism is racism, while others will insist Jews are just a European people (with no claim to Israel).

    But Judaism thinks ethnicity is important but is quite flexible and open about admitting anyone to the club. Yin and yang. Also the way that many Westerners cannot understand how Judaism is both particularistic and unversalist.

    So to answer your question, I can see why someone raised on Western notions of the exclusion of opposites might see the Jewish attitude as subversive. But Westerners criticized Asian cultures for the same reasons in the 19th century.

    I think it is an unfortunate misunderstanding that an intelligent Westerner who is capable of being fair and sympathetic to foreign ways of thinking can remedy by studying traditional cultures, particularly East Asian where the yin and yang motif is most clearly articulated, and can come to appreciate that it isn't a sinister and sly way of thinking, but actually realistic and respectful of the full range of reality, and in some ways, perhaps surprisingly healthier than the Western habit of excluding one side from view, in any given situation.
  90. @Hail

    Classifying Ashkenazi Jewishness as a white ethnicity makes the most sense to this gentile
     
    Simply saying they are a white ethnicity and closing the book on it is, I think, way too limiting conceptually and which, by its restrictiveness, misses a lot that is pretty important for the understanding of our world.

    I argued, in another recent thread, that a 'triangular' form of Jewish identity has now pretty fully emerged; as it is more relevant here, I will repost the highlights here:


    Any strict "religion vs. ethnicity/ancestry" binary is now obsolete for the Jews, replaced by something like a triangular identity with nodes around “religion” (the least important node), “ancestry,” and “politics” (the most important node).
     
    Two implications of this conceptualization of the 'political' as being the most important (but not the only) thing defining Jewish identity today: (1) there is plenty of room for those of partial-Ashkenazi ancestry; (2) people in, or aspiring to, positions of power now gravitate towards Judaism, either via intermarriage or conversion. I think both these things are observed/observable.

    Thus we have the evolution of the former ethnic concept of Jewishness to an emerging "ethnopolitical" concept / defacto reality.


    Jews, certainly the highest-prestige subgroup in the West, arguably indeed a quasi-ruling-elite class, have an enormous pull via those who are half- and even quarter-Jewish. Take the strong Jewish identity of someone like political activist professor Tim Wise, only a quarter-Jewish by ancestry; many an MSM journalist whose work suggests a strong Jewish identity also turn out to technically have one nominal-Christian parent. It would be simply foolish to say they are not Jews. For any kind of practical purposes, they are.
     

    The grandchildren of two nominal-Christian recent presidents (Clinton and Trump) are being raised Jewish. It is not hard to imagine one of the Obama girls (born 1998 and 2001) marrying a Jewish man and raising their children Jewish, too. (Kamala Harris did, but too late to have children of her own.)
     

    There is a strong prospect (inevitability) that the ancestral-stock will shift somewhat, but the, say, “60%-Ashkenazi, 25%-nonAshkenaziEuropean, 15% Other*” future Jewish ancestral stock will remain committed Jews, in large part because of the enormous prestige they get from their membership in the club, almost a sort of aristocracy by the present.

    * - Cf. Amy Chua's daughters.
     

    Will secular, one-quarter Jews remain the predominant image of Jewishness in the American mind a generation down the road, when fully Jewish orthodox comprise half the country’s Jewish population?

  91. @Talha
    LOOOL! Poop-colored Muzzies again! Is that just the default setting in that chart? 🤣

    Would have been interested in a Hindu column to round things out....”know gods exist”...?🤔

    Anyway - alhamdulillah for that percentage! It would have been nice to hit 90%+, but in this day and age, a B in this category is not bad...especially if we’re talking being graded on a curve.

    Peace.

    Hah, I couldn’t do green unless I came up with something else for Catholicism. I could’ve done red for Catholicism, but then what do I do for the commi atheists?! Would the black flag of ISIS have been better? I tell you, there’s just no winning around here!

    • LOL: Talha
  92. @Talha
    LOOOL! Poop-colored Muzzies again! Is that just the default setting in that chart? 🤣

    Would have been interested in a Hindu column to round things out....”know gods exist”...?🤔

    Anyway - alhamdulillah for that percentage! It would have been nice to hit 90%+, but in this day and age, a B in this category is not bad...especially if we’re talking being graded on a curve.

    Peace.

    The sample size for other religious traditions is too small.

  93. @anonymous
    Here it is:

    Judaism is a religion, although one that has many aspects of what anthropologists used to call a folkway, in a manner similar to Hinduism.

    Jews are a people. Not a religion because there are many atheistic Jews. Not a race because there are Jews of several colors. Not a nationality because they live in several nations.

    The closest analogy is something like Italian people. Someone can be considered Italian if they live in Italy, or are of Italian descent and live in the US, Argentina, etc. They are still Italian even if they are so atheist it would make their rosary-counting great-grandmother roll over. Italians have a wide range of phenotypes from the Swiss border to Sicily, so aren't a race. And analogous to conversion, if someone immerses themselves in Italian culture, they can probably be Italian too. There are not sharp boundaries around who is Italian, but there is a clear constellation of heritage, folkways, foodways, and other markers. But no reasonable person denies that Italians are a people. Same for Jews.

    As for the executive order, it was necessary to use "nationality" because "people" is not a protected class.

    Apt analogy, given that both are Meds and there is a lot of genetic overlap.

  94. @Talha
    I was being facetious, of course. Despite the random colors, I find AE's data graphs to be great pieces of information on various subjects and conversation starters. Definitely the most valuable blog in terms of serious and beneficial content on UNZ (at least in my opinion) for American citizens.

    Purple would go well with Catholics (or maybe even a gold) - both have association with Roman imperial colors - and, if I recall, Catholic bishops themselves. Personally I'd like green since it's always been the traditional Muslim color (along with white - both being those reported as what the Prophet [pbuh] was fond of)...
    http://www.ilmgate.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Madinah-dome.jpg

    But...meh...what're you going to do?

    Peace.

    Thanks very much, that’s high praise.

    As is surely apparent, I work through comments chronologically, spouting off as I go. I anticipated green as the most likely suggested color and here we are, so from now on, Catholicism will get the imperial purple.

    • Replies: @Talha
    I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I find this blog to be the best one at UNZ hands down. Specifically as a US citizen wondering about trends in society and good forum to discuss them where others are generally better behaved than other places.

    Looking forward to the next graph iterations.

    Peace.
  95. @SFG
    I always thought they should have 'Hebrew' for the ancestry (including Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi, and random groups like the Falashas), 'Jewish' for the religion, and 'Israeli' for the actual nationality. You can be a Hebrew Christian or an Irish Jew if you convert.

    That would clear things up nicely.

  96. @Audacious Epigone
    Thanks very much, that's high praise.

    As is surely apparent, I work through comments chronologically, spouting off as I go. I anticipated green as the most likely suggested color and here we are, so from now on, Catholicism will get the imperial purple.

    I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I find this blog to be the best one at UNZ hands down. Specifically as a US citizen wondering about trends in society and good forum to discuss them where others are generally better behaved than other places.

    Looking forward to the next graph iterations.

    Peace.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  97. @Audacious Epigone
    To understand anything about Judaism, its important to realize that a) clarity is not its overriding concern b) it rarely if ever chooses one side on any question c) one might say it rejects the binary way of thinking.

    The substance notwithstanding (heh!), that is lucid and concise. Thanks.

    It is easy to see how this gets uncharitably interpreted as a formula for perpetual subversion. While I wouldn't expect you to think that is fair, do you think it is understandable?

    To be honest, it’s a very similar approach to traditional Chinese and Japanese ways of thinking – it’s the old yin and yang kind of thinking, where the feminine principle and the male principle are both necessary and equal in every situation.

    I accept that this can be very frustrating for people who have completely assimilated the modern Western binary way of thinking – Arthur Kostler, a Jew btw, wrote a very interesting book on Japan, called the Lotus and the Robot, in which he expressed his supreme frustration amounting to disgust at the unwillingnes of the Japanese to take clear sides and make clear denunciations, etc.

    Many Westerners in Asia are driven nuts by what they see as the vagueness of Asian thinking – but it’s really just a holistic approach, in which all sides in any situation are considered to have some level of validity.

    Most traditional cultures think this way, even pre-modern Europe. It is a natural corollary of Jewish monotheism – a God who created everything, created a proper place for everything.

    That’s why the Jewish attitude to racism is so puzzling to many modern Westerners – some people will insist Judaism is racism, while others will insist Jews are just a European people (with no claim to Israel).

    But Judaism thinks ethnicity is important but is quite flexible and open about admitting anyone to the club. Yin and yang. Also the way that many Westerners cannot understand how Judaism is both particularistic and unversalist.

    So to answer your question, I can see why someone raised on Western notions of the exclusion of opposites might see the Jewish attitude as subversive. But Westerners criticized Asian cultures for the same reasons in the 19th century.

    I think it is an unfortunate misunderstanding that an intelligent Westerner who is capable of being fair and sympathetic to foreign ways of thinking can remedy by studying traditional cultures, particularly East Asian where the yin and yang motif is most clearly articulated, and can come to appreciate that it isn’t a sinister and sly way of thinking, but actually realistic and respectful of the full range of reality, and in some ways, perhaps surprisingly healthier than the Western habit of excluding one side from view, in any given situation.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'To be honest, it’s a very similar approach to traditional Chinese and Japanese ways of thinking...'

    Do you have some formula for cranking this bumph out, or do you actually have to think it through?
  98. @Talha

    I would expect you to hate Jews
     
    Well, I'm no friend of Israel. I just don't understand why a relatively recent problematic nation-state founded by atheist ethno-nationalist Jews should force me to throw out all of shared history with Jews living scattered across many Muslim lands. I don't particularly feel like I should lump all Jews together any more than I want others to lump all Muslims together with groups like Daesh or the Saudi ruling elite, etc.

    In truth the entire Muslim world is a mystery to me as they allow themselves to be killed en masse without mounting any resistance at all, and in fact many collaborate with the Jews.
     
    Well, you answered your own question right there.

    I had this to say on the subject:

    Israel is really only a symptom of the bigger disease of disunity in our Ummah. The Zionists would have never been able to take on the traditional defenders of that region; the Ottomans. Ottoman garrisons repelled the Brits twice when they tried to invade Gaza, they only succeeded a third time once they had convinced the Arabs to help disrupt the Ottoman supply lines. The Arabs revolted and we now have the mess on our hands that we do – file under: “Own goal”:
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjP3sZ1V4AEu95l.jpg
    That’s OK – we had similar issues with disunity and backstabbing during the Crusades. It was only when the Latin’s disunity and backstabbing eclipsed ours, that we were actually able to turn the tide. We’ll eventually learn that lesson again, we have time, not going anywhere and Allah swt reserves the right to humiliate His servants at the hands of others until they learn their lesson and turn themselves around:
    “O you who believe! When you encounter a force, then be steadfast, and remember Allah abundantly, that you may be successful. And obey Allah and His Messenger; and fall into no disputes, lest you lose heart and your power depart. And be patient and persevering, for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.” (8:45-46)

    All on us to fix. Whining is a cop out and waste of time.
     
    That's why you won't find me complaining about "Da Joos" all the time. The Muslims could easily resolve all the problems involved with Israel and bring her to the table as of yesterday if we stopped acting stupid and did what we were supposed to be doing.

    Peace.

    I was scrolling past the cartoon ready to chime in about the crusader states and how the Kingdom of Jerusalem’s highly improbable creation was in large part a consequence of Muslim disunity. By the time of the third crusade, the Islamic world was largely united under Saladin while the Latins, after Richard bested Saladin in the field, had to return to a very disunited Christian Europe lest he lose his kingdom.

  99. @AaronB
    To be honest, it's a very similar approach to traditional Chinese and Japanese ways of thinking - it's the old yin and yang kind of thinking, where the feminine principle and the male principle are both necessary and equal in every situation.

    I accept that this can be very frustrating for people who have completely assimilated the modern Western binary way of thinking - Arthur Kostler, a Jew btw, wrote a very interesting book on Japan, called the Lotus and the Robot, in which he expressed his supreme frustration amounting to disgust at the unwillingnes of the Japanese to take clear sides and make clear denunciations, etc.

    Many Westerners in Asia are driven nuts by what they see as the vagueness of Asian thinking - but it's really just a holistic approach, in which all sides in any situation are considered to have some level of validity.

    Most traditional cultures think this way, even pre-modern Europe. It is a natural corollary of Jewish monotheism - a God who created everything, created a proper place for everything.

    That's why the Jewish attitude to racism is so puzzling to many modern Westerners - some people will insist Judaism is racism, while others will insist Jews are just a European people (with no claim to Israel).

    But Judaism thinks ethnicity is important but is quite flexible and open about admitting anyone to the club. Yin and yang. Also the way that many Westerners cannot understand how Judaism is both particularistic and unversalist.

    So to answer your question, I can see why someone raised on Western notions of the exclusion of opposites might see the Jewish attitude as subversive. But Westerners criticized Asian cultures for the same reasons in the 19th century.

    I think it is an unfortunate misunderstanding that an intelligent Westerner who is capable of being fair and sympathetic to foreign ways of thinking can remedy by studying traditional cultures, particularly East Asian where the yin and yang motif is most clearly articulated, and can come to appreciate that it isn't a sinister and sly way of thinking, but actually realistic and respectful of the full range of reality, and in some ways, perhaps surprisingly healthier than the Western habit of excluding one side from view, in any given situation.

    ‘To be honest, it’s a very similar approach to traditional Chinese and Japanese ways of thinking…’

    Do you have some formula for cranking this bumph out, or do you actually have to think it through?

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