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Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria were costly blunders. They cost America lots of men, money, and prestige. A war with Iran could cost the US more of all of these things than the other elective regime change wars did. Iran has many more people and is much larger than the other theaters are:

The US won’t be fighting against a Sunni or Alawite minority, either. It will be fighting against a Shia majority while presumably continuing to simultaneously occupy another Shia-majority, Iranian-friendly Iraq.

Donald Trump was not elected to extend forever wars, he was elected to end them.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Donald Trump, Middle East, War 
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  1. anon[362] • Disclaimer says:

    Donald Trump will be ending his presidency with this, and dragging us down with him. Of course, it may poll well at first (or at least even), but so did Iraq … initially. When the consequences become apparent — Iraq kicking us out, an embassy car bombed, a national monument cratered, targeted assassinations of Americans — then the public will turn sour on it pretty quickly. Worse, anyone associated with Trump will go down in flames with him just like conservative Christians bore the brunt of the backlash for Bush’s Iraq War; they never recovered, and a bulwark against cultural change was removed, resulting in much of the insanity you see on the news these days.

    Trump was supposed to be our last hope. Now, he’s the guy who killed us. Even discounting demographic change, I think it’s an outstanding possibility that the GOP never again wins the White House should this thing go badly. Iraq was strike one. The Housing Crisis was strike two. This is the ball game. Just as the culture went far left in response to Bush’s Iraq War once conservative Christians were discredited, I think government policy might soon follow once the MAGA crowd discredits themselves through association with this guy. That means no more America First. Instead, prepare yourself for open borders, gun confiscations, free everything for migrants, hate speech laws, feminism, and every other kind of fringe issue imaginable.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    Bush toxified a whole lot of things with his disastrous invasion of Iraq, in this country Blair toxified the Blairite neo-liberal left.
  2. Hear, hear!

    As Peak Stupidity posted yesterday, the American people have never declared war on Iran through their “representatives” in Washington, FS. Other than during wartime, an assassination like this is not what you get from any nation with any self-respect or sanity.

    The impressive WWII shoot-down of Admiral Yamamoto by a squad of P-38s at Bougainville Island in the Pacific was an act done during wartime. This was an act of Death-from-Above from a completely out-of-control MIC in a nation that has squandered metric shit-tons of political goodwill that had accumulated by the end of the Cold War, only 30 years back.

    Lastly, war with Iran would be the kind in which the US military might see the results of its 3-decades of social experimentation, along with an idea of a difference between the self-sufficiency of WWII-era America, vs. one dependent on supply lines from China!

    • Replies: @2stateshmustate
    All what you say would never have happened if our country hadn't been completely taken over by Jews.
  3. Actually he wasn’t elected to end wars OR extend them, the vast majority of his voters were concerned with domestic policy, not foreign.

    Of course, war with Iran would be a horrible move both militarily and politically, but I’ve seen no evidence that Trump is trying to get us into one, so the whining and blackpilling seems pretty pointless.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    My opinion stands somewhere between Anon #362's and yours, Micheal. I do agree that candidate Trump's stance on immigration, even just bringing it to the forefront was what the majority of his voters came out for. I don't think it was any VAST majority, as there were likely plenty of independents who liked his talk about "America First". That includes not fighting wars that have not a damn thing to do with the defense of the U.S. of A. Besides the Constitutional principles, this stuff is expensive, especially for a country that is way beyond flat broke.

    Of course, whether he's re-elected or not is not as important as it could have been, as he ain't doing a whole lot of what he talks about in either foreign or domestic policy. So far, he's been a failure. Go ahead, vote for 4 more years of failure - I'll be out at the polls doing the same thing. ;-}
    , @2stateshmustate
    BS. He wouldn't have won if he had talked like a warmonger. It's was his non-interventionist rhetoric that put him over the top. Were it not for that Killery would have been our Jew controlled president instead.
    , @anon

    I’ve seen no evidence that Trump is trying to get us into one
     
    Withdrawing from the JCPOA, sanctions on Iran, economic threats on countries that do business with Iran, cavorting with neocon politicians who obviously want war, numerous false flags such as that drone that was shot down, luring another country's chief military officer to Iraq on a false pretext and then murdering him (and dozens of Iraqis), organizing anti-Iranian protests in Iraq, numerous public threats made on Twitter ... did you miss all of that? You're spending too much time with those Qanon quacks. Please come back to reality. Trump's Zionist advisors have been trying to start a war for years. You don't appoint people like that unless you want a war, too. They've been desperately trying to find any pretext to attack. The guy's chief campaign donor is a Jew who once demanded we drop a nuke inside Iran as a message not to mess with Israel.

    The "black pill" argument is something NeverTrumpers (never Trump's fault) use to hand wave away the guy's obvious faults. These same people believe Donald Trump is some kind of secret genius when the more obvious explanation is that he doesn't know what he's doing. This guy is going to take the entire right down with him if he starts a conflict with Iran. If you think political correctness is bad now, just wait.
    , @Jay Fink
    I guess I'm in the minority but Trump coming across as anti-war was one of the top reasons I voted for him. I liked how he criticized the Iraq war. I thought when he bashed Hillary for taking Saudi financing that meant he wouldn't mess with either Syria or Iran. I also was comforted by how much the neocons hated his guts. I feel like a fool now. I was reading too much into things and was seeing what I wanted to see. Looking back I now think Rand Paul was my closest match of all the GOP 2016 candidates, much more so than Trump.
  4. @Michael S
    Actually he wasn't elected to end wars OR extend them, the vast majority of his voters were concerned with domestic policy, not foreign.

    Of course, war with Iran would be a horrible move both militarily and politically, but I've seen no evidence that Trump is trying to get us into one, so the whining and blackpilling seems pretty pointless.

    My opinion stands somewhere between Anon #362’s and yours, Micheal. I do agree that candidate Trump’s stance on immigration, even just bringing it to the forefront was what the majority of his voters came out for. I don’t think it was any VAST majority, as there were likely plenty of independents who liked his talk about “America First”. That includes not fighting wars that have not a damn thing to do with the defense of the U.S. of A. Besides the Constitutional principles, this stuff is expensive, especially for a country that is way beyond flat broke.

    Of course, whether he’s re-elected or not is not as important as it could have been, as he ain’t doing a whole lot of what he talks about in either foreign or domestic policy. So far, he’s been a failure. Go ahead, vote for 4 more years of failure – I’ll be out at the polls doing the same thing. ;-}

    • Replies: @Michael S

    So far, he’s been a failure.
     
    Nonsense. What's he failed at?

    Immigration is way down, both legal and illegal. Wall funding secured and sections being built, eminent domain being employed against intransigents. No major wars, no major escalations, several de-escalations (North Korea, Syria, etc.). He defeated the Russiagate narrative (with the help of Barr and Giuliani), and roped Democrats into an unwinnable impeachment battle. And the benefits of his economic policy are not even debatable.

    But all the bitter losers are going to keep ankle-biting anyway, because reasons. Because he didn't literally come out and promise to deport every Mexican and gas every Jew, or some idiocy like that. Dude's done a way better job than Reagan even came close to doing, but apparently success is the new failure.

    Every single time there's some minor flare-up in the middle east, the alt-right loses their shit, and 2 days later completely forgets about it because nothing important actually happened. It's so ridiculous and out of proportion to the reality, that it actually makes the alt-right look like left-wing shills. This is black ops shenanigans, not war; both parties were in a country that neither of them should really be in, one attacked the other and the other retaliated with proportional force. It's boring. Nothing happened. Stop listening to shitlibs and the lying legacy media.
  5. I’ve always felt confident that there will be no troops on the ground in Iran. Almost certainly no American planes over Iran. It isn’t that there aren’t crazy neocons in Washington – there are, loads of ’em, like Bolton, or McCain reincarnated. But they are balanced by something, call it the common sense of others, or maybe only the fear of voters.

    Cruise missiles or drones, maybe.

    The foreign policy of the US needs some serious readjusting. And the ME is only one example. Some people in the Pacific seem to think that we are over there to protect their offshore mineral rights, by ramming Chinese ships or something.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  6. Is Trump thinking about a 20-year occupation that turns Iran into a magical McDonalds and Democracy-lovin’ ally, or just bombing them into further poverty and compliance?

    I assumed back in 2003 Bush would be doing the latter only in Iraq based on this working in 91 in Iraq, as well as Serbia. I don’t think I was the only one.

  7. @Achmed E. Newman
    My opinion stands somewhere between Anon #362's and yours, Micheal. I do agree that candidate Trump's stance on immigration, even just bringing it to the forefront was what the majority of his voters came out for. I don't think it was any VAST majority, as there were likely plenty of independents who liked his talk about "America First". That includes not fighting wars that have not a damn thing to do with the defense of the U.S. of A. Besides the Constitutional principles, this stuff is expensive, especially for a country that is way beyond flat broke.

    Of course, whether he's re-elected or not is not as important as it could have been, as he ain't doing a whole lot of what he talks about in either foreign or domestic policy. So far, he's been a failure. Go ahead, vote for 4 more years of failure - I'll be out at the polls doing the same thing. ;-}

    So far, he’s been a failure.

    Nonsense. What’s he failed at?

    Immigration is way down, both legal and illegal. Wall funding secured and sections being built, eminent domain being employed against intransigents. No major wars, no major escalations, several de-escalations (North Korea, Syria, etc.). He defeated the Russiagate narrative (with the help of Barr and Giuliani), and roped Democrats into an unwinnable impeachment battle. And the benefits of his economic policy are not even debatable.

    But all the bitter losers are going to keep ankle-biting anyway, because reasons. Because he didn’t literally come out and promise to deport every Mexican and gas every Jew, or some idiocy like that. Dude’s done a way better job than Reagan even came close to doing, but apparently success is the new failure.

    Every single time there’s some minor flare-up in the middle east, the alt-right loses their shit, and 2 days later completely forgets about it because nothing important actually happened. It’s so ridiculous and out of proportion to the reality, that it actually makes the alt-right look like left-wing shills. This is black ops shenanigans, not war; both parties were in a country that neither of them should really be in, one attacked the other and the other retaliated with proportional force. It’s boring. Nothing happened. Stop listening to shitlibs and the lying legacy media.

    • Replies: @Lot
    “ it actually makes the alt-right look like left-wing shills”

    If it quacks like a duck, loves up some Tulsi and Ilhan Omar like a duck...

    https://www.thewrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/richard-spencer-cnn.jpg
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    Where to start, where to start....? Oh yeah, so Trump has been distracted for 3/4 of this term as President due to this impeachment crap, preventing him from making any strategy regarding the promises of Campaign Trump. Rather than get a trusted lawyerly-type friend to handle all of the Russia/Ukraine collusion/corruption infotainment, and refer all questions to him, he spent this whole time defending himself on this.

    He's picked people that openly disagree with him as his top employees. Why would you do that? Lack of delegation and formation of any coherent strategy to meet his promised goals, rather than just blabbing and tweeting about personal sleights is why Peak Stupidity asked "Is Donald Trump a woman trapped inside a man's body?".

    Michael, there is no 1,900 mile border barrier that wouldn't even have to cost 1/2 day's worth of the national budget (See Border control vs. the interstate highway system and Border control maintenance vs. defending some Koreans from other Koreans.) Trump could have ended DACA right away, which was nothing but a executive order that was to expire automatically anyway. He's cut down on the "refugee" influx numbers, but nothing says they can't jump up to > 100,000 next president. The H-1B Visa numbers are still much too high.

    Trump could have kept the American military out of Syria. He'd let us down on this one not very long after taking office. Less than 3 months into this presidency, we wondered what was wrong with this guy and whether he had already been "Neoconned".

    No, Trump did not promise to "gas the Jews", Michael. Perhaps you need to adjust your twitter receiver, as it sounds like information is coming in garbled and unreadable for you. As far as Iran goes, you say

    "... This is black ops shenanigans, not war; both parties were in a country that neither of them should really be in, one attacked the other and the other retaliated with proportional force."
     
    Both "parties"? Why is one party in the Middle East to begin with. How did any of these shenanigans attack America? America is in a whole nother part of the world it should not be in. Candidate Trump said "America First". Waging "shenanigans" in the Middle East is not really the First thing in my mind for America.
  8. • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Trump took out men who specifically and successfully planned to kill Americans FORCES.
     
    FIFY. (I just used the link itself - easy, peasy.)

    Get America out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, ... yeah, and a few dozen other places ... yeah, and the UN!
  9. @Michael S

    So far, he’s been a failure.
     
    Nonsense. What's he failed at?

    Immigration is way down, both legal and illegal. Wall funding secured and sections being built, eminent domain being employed against intransigents. No major wars, no major escalations, several de-escalations (North Korea, Syria, etc.). He defeated the Russiagate narrative (with the help of Barr and Giuliani), and roped Democrats into an unwinnable impeachment battle. And the benefits of his economic policy are not even debatable.

    But all the bitter losers are going to keep ankle-biting anyway, because reasons. Because he didn't literally come out and promise to deport every Mexican and gas every Jew, or some idiocy like that. Dude's done a way better job than Reagan even came close to doing, but apparently success is the new failure.

    Every single time there's some minor flare-up in the middle east, the alt-right loses their shit, and 2 days later completely forgets about it because nothing important actually happened. It's so ridiculous and out of proportion to the reality, that it actually makes the alt-right look like left-wing shills. This is black ops shenanigans, not war; both parties were in a country that neither of them should really be in, one attacked the other and the other retaliated with proportional force. It's boring. Nothing happened. Stop listening to shitlibs and the lying legacy media.

    “ it actually makes the alt-right look like left-wing shills”

    If it quacks like a duck, loves up some Tulsi and Ilhan Omar like a duck…

    • Replies: @AaronB
    The alt-right has always been anti-American, and cheer every American defeat and support every American foe. China, Iran - whatever.

    I am pretty critical of America, but I have to say there is just something indecent about these people. It makes me queasy.

    Whatever your problems with America, you just don't act this way - there is such a thing as basic loyalty.

    On the plus side, the complete lack of moral qualities in these people means they will never be an effective movement. The sooner they all convert to Islam the better.

  10. The cost doesn’t matter. Iran could threaten Israel and thus must be destroyed.

    Pakastan and Turkey are next.

    • Replies: @2stateshmustate
    Well of course to a Zionist Jew goyim's lives are cheap.
  11. @Lot
    “ it actually makes the alt-right look like left-wing shills”

    If it quacks like a duck, loves up some Tulsi and Ilhan Omar like a duck...

    https://www.thewrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/richard-spencer-cnn.jpg

    The alt-right has always been anti-American, and cheer every American defeat and support every American foe. China, Iran – whatever.

    I am pretty critical of America, but I have to say there is just something indecent about these people. It makes me queasy.

    Whatever your problems with America, you just don’t act this way – there is such a thing as basic loyalty.

    On the plus side, the complete lack of moral qualities in these people means they will never be an effective movement. The sooner they all convert to Islam the better.

    • Replies: @2stateshmustate
    Did the white Russians who fought and died to stop the vile murdering Bolshies from taking over Russia hate Russia? Of course not.
    The same applies to Americans who hate the Jew Bolshies who have taken over America. On top of which it was these same Bolshies that murdered 3000 Americans in a single morning on 911. What's not to like?
  12. Iran has many more people and is much larger than the other theaters are:

    It isn’t simply an issue of quantity but one of quality :

  13. I for one am tired of winning. With Trump it will always be Israel and the MIC first. He is chained to a maniac.

    Hello Donald? The Anglo/Zio Empire will collapse. It can’t happen too soon. Iran will be the regional hegemon in the Middle East. If Russia does not protect her Israel will be destroyed. There is nothing you can or should do about it.

  14. “Donald Trump was not elected to extend forever wars, he was elected to end them.”

    And that is the bottom line. While I have been more than willing to give room for “a mess not of his making” some progress in not over extending the US power projection was expected and that is no longer the case.

    And while Mr. Shapiro’s comments seem benign, under the current immigration policy they are not. The browning of the country under our current policy undermines the very essence of what it means to be the US and a citizen. And ideology is the last thing on the minds of the people Mr. Shapiro so blithely wants to import —– his loose rhetoric here is reflective of his misunderstood grasp of what being a christian in the US is.

    And he deserves pushback.

    And I definitely care that he doesn’t care — and so should others.

    ————————————-

    And anyone who doesn’t grasp the superiority of marriage in raising children verses mere living together – doesn’t get raising children. No they cannot, and that in my view is almost by definition.

  15. @Michael S

    So far, he’s been a failure.
     
    Nonsense. What's he failed at?

    Immigration is way down, both legal and illegal. Wall funding secured and sections being built, eminent domain being employed against intransigents. No major wars, no major escalations, several de-escalations (North Korea, Syria, etc.). He defeated the Russiagate narrative (with the help of Barr and Giuliani), and roped Democrats into an unwinnable impeachment battle. And the benefits of his economic policy are not even debatable.

    But all the bitter losers are going to keep ankle-biting anyway, because reasons. Because he didn't literally come out and promise to deport every Mexican and gas every Jew, or some idiocy like that. Dude's done a way better job than Reagan even came close to doing, but apparently success is the new failure.

    Every single time there's some minor flare-up in the middle east, the alt-right loses their shit, and 2 days later completely forgets about it because nothing important actually happened. It's so ridiculous and out of proportion to the reality, that it actually makes the alt-right look like left-wing shills. This is black ops shenanigans, not war; both parties were in a country that neither of them should really be in, one attacked the other and the other retaliated with proportional force. It's boring. Nothing happened. Stop listening to shitlibs and the lying legacy media.

    Where to start, where to start….? Oh yeah, so Trump has been distracted for 3/4 of this term as President due to this impeachment crap, preventing him from making any strategy regarding the promises of Campaign Trump. Rather than get a trusted lawyerly-type friend to handle all of the Russia/Ukraine collusion/corruption infotainment, and refer all questions to him, he spent this whole time defending himself on this.

    He’s picked people that openly disagree with him as his top employees. Why would you do that? Lack of delegation and formation of any coherent strategy to meet his promised goals, rather than just blabbing and tweeting about personal sleights is why Peak Stupidity asked “Is Donald Trump a woman trapped inside a man’s body?”.

    Michael, there is no 1,900 mile border barrier that wouldn’t even have to cost 1/2 day’s worth of the national budget (See Border control vs. the interstate highway system and Border control maintenance vs. defending some Koreans from other Koreans.) Trump could have ended DACA right away, which was nothing but a executive order that was to expire automatically anyway. He’s cut down on the “refugee” influx numbers, but nothing says they can’t jump up to > 100,000 next president. The H-1B Visa numbers are still much too high.

    Trump could have kept the American military out of Syria. He’d let us down on this one not very long after taking office. Less than 3 months into this presidency, we wondered what was wrong with this guy and whether he had already been “Neoconned”.

    No, Trump did not promise to “gas the Jews”, Michael. Perhaps you need to adjust your twitter receiver, as it sounds like information is coming in garbled and unreadable for you. As far as Iran goes, you say

    “… This is black ops shenanigans, not war; both parties were in a country that neither of them should really be in, one attacked the other and the other retaliated with proportional force.”

    Both “parties”? Why is one party in the Middle East to begin with. How did any of these shenanigans attack America? America is in a whole nother part of the world it should not be in. Candidate Trump said “America First”. Waging “shenanigans” in the Middle East is not really the First thing in my mind for America.

    • Agree: follyofwar
  16. @Lot
    Trump took out men who specifically and successfully planned to kill Americans.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-security-soleimani-insight/inside-the-plot-by-irans-soleimani-to-attack-u-s-forces-in-iraq-idUSKBN1Z301Z

    https://oneway2day.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/flag-eagle-toten-donald-trump.jpg?w=840

    Trump took out men who specifically and successfully planned to kill Americans FORCES.

    FIFY. (I just used the link itself – easy, peasy.)

    Get America out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, … yeah, and a few dozen other places … yeah, and the UN!

    • Agree: MikeatMikedotMike
  17. One more warning for conservatives who still aren’t convinced. If the next generation is radicalized by Trump being a bad president, they’re not just going to lean left. They’re going to lean regressive, totalitarian, super-social-justice left.

    Everyone has already constructed the narrative: Trump is the anti-PC, anti-social-justice candidate. If he wins, he’s going to be the anti-PC, anti-social-justice President. And he will fail. First of all, because he doesn’t really show much sign of knowing what he’s doing. Second of all, because all presidents fail in a sense – 80% of Americans consistently believe the country is headed the wrong direction and the president is the natural fall guy for this trend. And third of all, because even if by some miracle Trump avoids the first two failure modes, the media will say he failed and people will believe them. And when the anti-PC, anti-social-justice President fails, the reaction will be a giant “we told you so” from the social justice movement, and a giant shift of all the disillusioned young people right into their fold.

    Trump is all set to be the biggest gift to the social justice movement in history. They thrive on claims of persecution, claims that they’re the ones fighting a stupid hateful regressive culture that controls everything. And people think that bringing their straw man to life and putting him in the Oval Office is going to help?

    – Scott Alexander, September 2016.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    You aren't welcome here, you Atlantisist cocksucker. Go back to your own blog and sodomize yourself.
  18. Iranian IQ is higher too.

  19. @anon
    Donald Trump will be ending his presidency with this, and dragging us down with him. Of course, it may poll well at first (or at least even), but so did Iraq ... initially. When the consequences become apparent -- Iraq kicking us out, an embassy car bombed, a national monument cratered, targeted assassinations of Americans -- then the public will turn sour on it pretty quickly. Worse, anyone associated with Trump will go down in flames with him just like conservative Christians bore the brunt of the backlash for Bush's Iraq War; they never recovered, and a bulwark against cultural change was removed, resulting in much of the insanity you see on the news these days.

    Trump was supposed to be our last hope. Now, he's the guy who killed us. Even discounting demographic change, I think it's an outstanding possibility that the GOP never again wins the White House should this thing go badly. Iraq was strike one. The Housing Crisis was strike two. This is the ball game. Just as the culture went far left in response to Bush's Iraq War once conservative Christians were discredited, I think government policy might soon follow once the MAGA crowd discredits themselves through association with this guy. That means no more America First. Instead, prepare yourself for open borders, gun confiscations, free everything for migrants, hate speech laws, feminism, and every other kind of fringe issue imaginable.

    Bush toxified a whole lot of things with his disastrous invasion of Iraq, in this country Blair toxified the Blairite neo-liberal left.

  20. @Anatoly Karlin

    One more warning for conservatives who still aren’t convinced. If the next generation is radicalized by Trump being a bad president, they’re not just going to lean left. They’re going to lean regressive, totalitarian, super-social-justice left.

    Everyone has already constructed the narrative: Trump is the anti-PC, anti-social-justice candidate. If he wins, he’s going to be the anti-PC, anti-social-justice President. And he will fail. First of all, because he doesn’t really show much sign of knowing what he’s doing. Second of all, because all presidents fail in a sense – 80% of Americans consistently believe the country is headed the wrong direction and the president is the natural fall guy for this trend. And third of all, because even if by some miracle Trump avoids the first two failure modes, the media will say he failed and people will believe them. And when the anti-PC, anti-social-justice President fails, the reaction will be a giant “we told you so” from the social justice movement, and a giant shift of all the disillusioned young people right into their fold.

    Trump is all set to be the biggest gift to the social justice movement in history. They thrive on claims of persecution, claims that they’re the ones fighting a stupid hateful regressive culture that controls everything. And people think that bringing their straw man to life and putting him in the Oval Office is going to help?
     
    - Scott Alexander, September 2016.

    You aren’t welcome here, you Atlantisist cocksucker. Go back to your own blog and sodomize yourself.

    • Disagree: Blinky Bill, El Dato, iffen
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    That was a Scott Adams quote. I had thought he was a smart guy, but his last point (of 3) about Trump "failing" is bogus. Yes, Trump is failing, but had he actually got a lot done that was within his ability (plenty!), no matter what the Lyin' Press has to say about it, the patriotic Americans would know he'd done well. He'd be a shoe-in in '20, as patriotic white people would come out to vote in DROVES.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    Whatever your beef with Anatoly is, he always has an open invitation here.

    He's the world's second most expert journalist on the science of human intelligence.
  21. I truly cannot figure out if Trump is acting as a complete idiot OR is he following an extremely clever brinksmanship strategy to get the US out of the Middle East (and globally). US foreign policy has become so extreme that you could argue either way.

    Looks to me like Nadler, Schiff, Schumer and Pelosi have been outmanuevered . They all are pro-war or pro-Israel (same thing, actually), so what do they do now? Trump can “bring the house down” any time he wishes.

    You people who criticize evangelicals for their Trump support didn’t think they might see him as “Samson”. Lusty, vulgar, violent, self destructive in the Lord’s work (ha ha)

  22. The US isn’t going to war with Iran. Not by the conventional definition.

    Now – I am not a close followers of ME policy anymore, especially the topics like Iraq that have settled into essentially a news beat. This is primarily because I came to believe over a decade ago that the US should remove the entirety of its military and even diplomatic presence in the ME as soon as possible (hold on, I gotta take a hit). But also because the domestic issues the US faces are far and away a much greater challenge and immediately impact its citizens’ lives.

    So I didn’t know who Soulman was before he wasn’t anymore. Now I somewhat halfway wish that I had, because now that he is gone it will be almost impossible to get a sense of who he actually was without the bias of those who think he was MacArthur and those that think he was Himmler.

    What was he doing in Iraq when he was killed? The simplest answer is that he was acting in his own nation’s interests, which is, I’m ashamed to say, a more honest reason than why the US is in Iraq currently.

    That said, if he was planning to kill American forces in Iraq, then his assassination was justified, because the less US troops killed over there, the better. If he wasn’t planning to do so, then his assassination was just one more stupid thing the US government has done* and damn them all to hell that much more.

    War with Iran would be one of the stupidest fucking things ever attempted, not just in US History, but in the entirety of world history. Do our leaders ever reference history? Do they know who they’re dealing with here? Persians are not Arabs. Not even close. All that should be moot anyway because in a geopolitical sense Iran is not a threat to the US. Like, at all. But, neither was Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Vietnam, North Korea, Germany…

    *Zman from the Zblog made a point a couple months ago about how Trump might not actually hold control over the US military, and it may be operating independent of his wishes. His argument was reasonable. This latest assassination may be another case where Trump is forced to accept responsibility for a military action that he didn’t actually order, in order to save face.

  23. > The US once had some moral standing, at least in appearance. (Ok, so, about … 20 years ago.)
    > Now advocates bombing cultural sites of a country nominally not at war with the US and threatens the politicians with elimination if there is so much as retaliation against its international assassination program.
    > All for the Israel-Saudi axis of the Golden Calf of bought political power.

    TOP.JOB.
    TOP.MEN.

    Super-regional-wide Chechnya while “confronting the exitential threats” of China and Russia sure sounds like an episode of End of Empires.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  24. @Achmed E. Newman
    Hear, hear!

    As Peak Stupidity posted yesterday, the American people have never declared war on Iran through their "representatives" in Washington, FS. Other than during wartime, an assassination like this is not what you get from any nation with any self-respect or sanity.

    The impressive WWII shoot-down of Admiral Yamamoto by a squad of P-38s at Bougainville Island in the Pacific was an act done during wartime. This was an act of Death-from-Above from a completely out-of-control MIC in a nation that has squandered metric shit-tons of political goodwill that had accumulated by the end of the Cold War, only 30 years back.

    Lastly, war with Iran would be the kind in which the US military might see the results of its 3-decades of social experimentation, along with an idea of a difference between the self-sufficiency of WWII-era America, vs. one dependent on supply lines from China!

    All what you say would never have happened if our country hadn’t been completely taken over by Jews.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Influenced, not taken over. People need to quit being so weak or ignorant as to be influenced so easily.
  25. @Michael S
    Actually he wasn't elected to end wars OR extend them, the vast majority of his voters were concerned with domestic policy, not foreign.

    Of course, war with Iran would be a horrible move both militarily and politically, but I've seen no evidence that Trump is trying to get us into one, so the whining and blackpilling seems pretty pointless.

    BS. He wouldn’t have won if he had talked like a warmonger. It’s was his non-interventionist rhetoric that put him over the top. Were it not for that Killery would have been our Jew controlled president instead.

  26. @Patriot
    The cost doesn't matter. Iran could threaten Israel and thus must be destroyed.

    Pakastan and Turkey are next.

    Well of course to a Zionist Jew goyim’s lives are cheap.

  27. Have the “conservative” commenters on these Trump treads become considerably dumber in 4 years, or are they just great actors?

    If so, that’s one hell of an accomplishment.

    • LOL: Talha
  28. “He’s picked people that openly disagree with him as his top employees. Why would you do that?”

    As someone who supports the current executive my response is fairly simple and consistent for the last three years plus.

    Sure, it was troubling to see a hard won victory risked by his choices. But there are some reasons for doing so.

    1. an live branch of sorts

    2. tamping down against the intense opposition

    3. not engaging in attempts at immediate or extreme changes in policy — a standard recommended to any new incoming management – slow to rock the boat save an emergency –

    4. he provided plenty of time and space for the status quo to demonstrate they could accomplish said goals

    5. and there was this: impending investigation that served as the sword of Damocles impeding even basic management processes

    No single reason

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    All those reasons suck, IMHO, EC. There is no compromising in this business. The other side plays hard ball.
  29. @AaronB
    The alt-right has always been anti-American, and cheer every American defeat and support every American foe. China, Iran - whatever.

    I am pretty critical of America, but I have to say there is just something indecent about these people. It makes me queasy.

    Whatever your problems with America, you just don't act this way - there is such a thing as basic loyalty.

    On the plus side, the complete lack of moral qualities in these people means they will never be an effective movement. The sooner they all convert to Islam the better.

    Did the white Russians who fought and died to stop the vile murdering Bolshies from taking over Russia hate Russia? Of course not.
    The same applies to Americans who hate the Jew Bolshies who have taken over America. On top of which it was these same Bolshies that murdered 3000 Americans in a single morning on 911. What’s not to like?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    It's fine to dislike the current system in America and seek to change it. I do.

    I just think its indecent to support countries like China or Iran against America. They don't want America to have good rulers and a good system. At best they want to humiliate us and dominate us.

    I think one's criticism of ones own country shouldn't go so far as to delight in the victories of its enemies and sympathy for them. Many here are actually cheering on the death of American soldiers they imagine delightedly will happen.

    People seem to have a Manichean world view - if the current rulers of America are bad, then its enemies must be good. This is seriously dumb.

    If I felt so hopeless and alienated from America that I no longer felt any loyalty to it, my attitude would be one of regret and sadness. I still wouldn't sympathise with its enemies or chortle over the death of Americans.

    To me that just shows lack of moral fiber, of a certain basic quality of loyalty and character. The alt-right seems composed of people of generally low character, who can't unite and organize themselves for that reason.

    When I said they should convert to Islam I wasn't trying to insult Islam. I think Islam may help these people develop some character. Islam seems better than other religions at giving low quality people the rudiments of morality. These people will never become assets to whatever society they belong to, but they might become less bad. And their departure will be no loss to us. Angry, violence prone men seem to feel an affinity for Islam, and Islam may help them become slightly better.
  30. This has been overlooked in the press but the drone strike killed a total of 10 people, including Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis, who was elected to the Iraqi parliament as a member of the al-Dawa Party and was the leader of the Kataib Hezbollah militia. It also killed four other Iraqi officers. Does this mean that we are also at war with Iraq? If the Iraqi people vote for politicians we don’t like can we just kill them? The Iraqi Prime Minister himself condemned the attacks,

    The assassination of an Iraqi military commander who holds an official position is considered aggression on Iraq … and the liquidation of leading Iraqi figures or those from a brotherly country on Iraqi soil is a massive breach of sovereignty”
    Iraqi Prime Minister Adil Abdul Mahdi

    The Prime Minister attended the funeral procession. Does this make him a terrorist sympathizer?

    Also Qasem Soleimani was engaged in warfare against ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Is the US conceding that ISIS is a US ally?

    • Replies: @216

    The Prime Minister attended the funeral procession. Does this make him a terrorist sympathizer?
     
    Yes, a large number of Iraqi pols are openly on the Iranian payroll.

    The riots last year had caused the pro-Iran PM to resign, but internal squabbling has prevented a successor PM.
  31. Iran has many more people and is much larger than the other theaters are

    Geographic size might favor USAF/SOCOM/CIA over the home team, which would struggle with logistics even on its home turf. (Assuming this is a regime-punish war, not a regime-change war. Trump has not shown any interest in regime change for the purpose of liberating waman – unlike George W. Bush and Hillary).

  32. @Intelligent Dasein
    You aren't welcome here, you Atlantisist cocksucker. Go back to your own blog and sodomize yourself.

    That was a Scott Adams quote. I had thought he was a smart guy, but his last point (of 3) about Trump “failing” is bogus. Yes, Trump is failing, but had he actually got a lot done that was within his ability (plenty!), no matter what the Lyin’ Press has to say about it, the patriotic Americans would know he’d done well. He’d be a shoe-in in ’20, as patriotic white people would come out to vote in DROVES.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Oops! Just caught my mistake - Scott Alexander.
  33. @EliteCommInc.
    "He’s picked people that openly disagree with him as his top employees. Why would you do that?"

    As someone who supports the current executive my response is fairly simple and consistent for the last three years plus.


    Sure, it was troubling to see a hard won victory risked by his choices. But there are some reasons for doing so.


    1. an live branch of sorts

    2. tamping down against the intense opposition

    3. not engaging in attempts at immediate or extreme changes in policy -- a standard recommended to any new incoming management - slow to rock the boat save an emergency -

    4. he provided plenty of time and space for the status quo to demonstrate they could accomplish said goals

    5. and there was this: impending investigation that served as the sword of Damocles impeding even basic management processes


    No single reason

    All those reasons suck, IMHO, EC. There is no compromising in this business. The other side plays hard ball.

  34. 216 says: • Website

    I’m not sure that I would characterize Syria as an American blunder yet.

    Assad remains in power, but he had to admit the existence of an illegal WMD program, which he was then forced to surrender.

    We’ve backed off of the Obama-era demands for regime change.

    The refugee problem is less an American problem (versus Libya, where it is our fault), than it was a reluctance by the EU to pay large amounts of money to Turkey in return for hosting refugees.

  35. @tanabear
    This has been overlooked in the press but the drone strike killed a total of 10 people, including Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis, who was elected to the Iraqi parliament as a member of the al-Dawa Party and was the leader of the Kataib Hezbollah militia. It also killed four other Iraqi officers. Does this mean that we are also at war with Iraq? If the Iraqi people vote for politicians we don't like can we just kill them? The Iraqi Prime Minister himself condemned the attacks,

    "The assassination of an Iraqi military commander who holds an official position is considered aggression on Iraq ... and the liquidation of leading Iraqi figures or those from a brotherly country on Iraqi soil is a massive breach of sovereignty"
    Iraqi Prime Minister Adil Abdul Mahdi

    The Prime Minister attended the funeral procession. Does this make him a terrorist sympathizer?

    Also Qasem Soleimani was engaged in warfare against ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Is the US conceding that ISIS is a US ally?

    The Prime Minister attended the funeral procession. Does this make him a terrorist sympathizer?

    Yes, a large number of Iraqi pols are openly on the Iranian payroll.

    The riots last year had caused the pro-Iran PM to resign, but internal squabbling has prevented a successor PM.

  36. What happens when the Iraqi government formally resolves that the US troops need to leave?

    I don’t think this will add up to a major war or anything. But if it does, I mostly care about our domestic situation. And I don’t have any idea how it would play out. I think other than Professional Middle East People, nobody really cares that much about this. Will the anti-war left show up again?

  37. Iraqi conservatives are apparently just as bad at boycotts as American conservatives

  38. “All those reasons suck, IMHO, EC. There is no compromising in this business. The other side plays hard ball.”

    Laughing. I stand by my comments. Laughing, however.

    Harball is not what the otherside plays or they would gone first for censure after repeated censure, building a case. Then when the executive moved to make nice with Russia without extracting anything from then, Pres Putin for having sabotaged the election authorized murders and attempted murders moved immediately for impeachment on that basis. When signed the intel report as fact, he essentially called the Russians active enemies of the US. That he would now make nice after the sabotage went his way —– that might have had some footing. Hardball, you think what is being played is hardball. It’s been one sloppy, unsupported series of complaints sounding as whines — and the US public simply doesn’t buy it.

    But they do have him boxed in on foreign policy, not based on his cabinet picks, but the intel report. that was hardball. And he should hit a home run by adding caveats about the intel or rejecting it outright.

    However, that is not the game in play in public — what we have is an unsubstantiated nonsense of a case, predicated on how democrats feel. A case so nonexistent that if every charge were accurate, it still would not criminal conduct. And what liberals have are soft boiled eggs. However, they are persistent in throwing them. One might give in at the mere annoyance such is the case on same sex anything. Neither science nor historical record backs them up, but the constant wailing is as bad as any cats pestering for food in the wee small hours of the morning and that weird tapping of the head they do — as if a metronome.

    Though I would that this executive had a much sterner backbone on plenty of issues. immigration and US sovereignty for starters.

    ————————-

    And for the record, politics usually has room for compromise — though i would say that room is thread thin for the last twenty five years. Now practically nonexistent

  39. @2stateshmustate
    Did the white Russians who fought and died to stop the vile murdering Bolshies from taking over Russia hate Russia? Of course not.
    The same applies to Americans who hate the Jew Bolshies who have taken over America. On top of which it was these same Bolshies that murdered 3000 Americans in a single morning on 911. What's not to like?

    It’s fine to dislike the current system in America and seek to change it. I do.

    I just think its indecent to support countries like China or Iran against America. They don’t want America to have good rulers and a good system. At best they want to humiliate us and dominate us.

    I think one’s criticism of ones own country shouldn’t go so far as to delight in the victories of its enemies and sympathy for them. Many here are actually cheering on the death of American soldiers they imagine delightedly will happen.

    People seem to have a Manichean world view – if the current rulers of America are bad, then its enemies must be good. This is seriously dumb.

    If I felt so hopeless and alienated from America that I no longer felt any loyalty to it, my attitude would be one of regret and sadness. I still wouldn’t sympathise with its enemies or chortle over the death of Americans.

    To me that just shows lack of moral fiber, of a certain basic quality of loyalty and character. The alt-right seems composed of people of generally low character, who can’t unite and organize themselves for that reason.

    When I said they should convert to Islam I wasn’t trying to insult Islam. I think Islam may help these people develop some character. Islam seems better than other religions at giving low quality people the rudiments of morality. These people will never become assets to whatever society they belong to, but they might become less bad. And their departure will be no loss to us. Angry, violence prone men seem to feel an affinity for Islam, and Islam may help them become slightly better.

  40. @2stateshmustate
    All what you say would never have happened if our country hadn't been completely taken over by Jews.

    Influenced, not taken over. People need to quit being so weak or ignorant as to be influenced so easily.

  41. @Intelligent Dasein
    You aren't welcome here, you Atlantisist cocksucker. Go back to your own blog and sodomize yourself.

    Whatever your beef with Anatoly is, he always has an open invitation here.

    He’s the world’s second most expert journalist on the science of human intelligence.

    • Replies: @SFG
    I don't share his degree of Russophilia, but that's his interest (and heritage), and he covers it well.
  42. anon[187] • Disclaimer says:
    @Michael S
    Actually he wasn't elected to end wars OR extend them, the vast majority of his voters were concerned with domestic policy, not foreign.

    Of course, war with Iran would be a horrible move both militarily and politically, but I've seen no evidence that Trump is trying to get us into one, so the whining and blackpilling seems pretty pointless.

    I’ve seen no evidence that Trump is trying to get us into one

    Withdrawing from the JCPOA, sanctions on Iran, economic threats on countries that do business with Iran, cavorting with neocon politicians who obviously want war, numerous false flags such as that drone that was shot down, luring another country’s chief military officer to Iraq on a false pretext and then murdering him (and dozens of Iraqis), organizing anti-Iranian protests in Iraq, numerous public threats made on Twitter … did you miss all of that? You’re spending too much time with those Qanon quacks. Please come back to reality. Trump’s Zionist advisors have been trying to start a war for years. You don’t appoint people like that unless you want a war, too. They’ve been desperately trying to find any pretext to attack. The guy’s chief campaign donor is a Jew who once demanded we drop a nuke inside Iran as a message not to mess with Israel.

    The “black pill” argument is something NeverTrumpers (never Trump’s fault) use to hand wave away the guy’s obvious faults. These same people believe Donald Trump is some kind of secret genius when the more obvious explanation is that he doesn’t know what he’s doing. This guy is going to take the entire right down with him if he starts a conflict with Iran. If you think political correctness is bad now, just wait.

  43. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/13/world/middleeast/us-military-plans-iran.html

    This was in May btw

    t a meeting of President Trump’s top national security aides last Thursday, Acting Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan presented an updated military plan that envisions sending as many as 120,000 troops to the Middle East should Iran attack American forces or accelerate work on nuclear weapons, administration officials said.

    [To follow new military deployments to the Middle East, sign up for the weekly At War newsletter.]

    The revisions were ordered by hard-liners led by John R. Bolton, Mr. Trump’s national security adviser. They do not call for a land invasion of Iran, which would require vastly more troops, officials said.

  44. @Audacious Epigone
    Whatever your beef with Anatoly is, he always has an open invitation here.

    He's the world's second most expert journalist on the science of human intelligence.

    I don’t share his degree of Russophilia, but that’s his interest (and heritage), and he covers it well.

    • Replies: @216
    Diasporas contain lots of resentful people with emnity at the host population. But oftentimes they either can't or worse, won't, repatriate.

    Karlin did just that, a tremendous vote of confidence in his character.

    The overwhelming majority of ADL and AIPAC supporters don't make aliyah.

    There can be something positive to say about expatriation as a "relief valve" for social pressures. See a certain Roosh for example.

    Imagine a stable Mexico or even a Second World-level West African country. A lot of subversive people in this country might leave to fit in a more compatible environment.
  45. anon[182] • Disclaimer says:

    Nonsense. What’s he failed at?

    Literally everything. Let’s take a look.

    Immigration is way down, both legal and illegal.

    They’re not. Legal immigration is the same as it always was because no law has been enacted that reduces it. Only minor reductions in refugee resettlement have been enacted. Trump has publicly announced he favors massive increases in legal immigration. Illegal immigration surged to record levels during the first two years of his administration. Illegal immigration is still high by any other country’s standards, and if it has fallen at all, it is mostly due to impending economic problems in the United States.

    Wall funding secured and sections being built,

    A paltry sum of money. Most of the sections being built are actually rebuilt older sections. Barely 60 miles out of 3,000 + have been constructed. As soon as he leaves office, that will stop. So, even that accomplishment will soon be erased.

    eminent domain being employed against intransigents.

    Barely makes a dent.

    No major wars, no major escalations, several de-escalations (North Korea, Syria, etc.).

    Iran was a huge escalation. North Korea still has nukes. Iraq just ordered the United States out of their country. Turkey invaded northern Syria, and they’ve just sent troops to Libya against American threats. He escalated with Venezuela and lost. His government recently overthrew Bolivia’s government.

    He defeated the Russiagate narrative (with the help of Barr and Giuliani),

    That’s supposed to count as an “accomplishment”? He skated on a political scandal. Big deal. Why is his son-in-law advocating for high legal immigration?

    and roped Democrats into an unwinnable impeachment battle.

    Well, not “unwinnable.” I’d say he just breathed some life into it with this Iran thing.

    And the benefits of his economic policy are not even debatable.

    Sub-par GDP gains, record auto-loan delinquencies, failure to bring back manufacturing jobs, a ruinous trade war, increasing student debt, trillion dollar deficits, massive federal reserve overnight repo operations, failure on healthcare reform … the only thing that has gone up is the stock market, and mostly due to federal reserve money printing; corporate profits are flat. No middle-class person is benefiting from any of this. Is there anything you people won’t excuse from this man?

    But all the bitter losers are going to keep ankle-biting anyway, because reasons.

    Bitter losers? Lol. Only if you think crumbs from the table count as winning.

    Because he didn’t literally come out and promise to deport every Mexican and gas every Jew, or some idiocy like that.

    Breitbart. Get back to it.

    Dude’s done a way better job than Reagan even came close to doing, but apparently success is the new failure.

    Not even close. You must be a Millennial. Here in reality, Donald Trump is on the verge of undoing nearly everything Reagan and his successor HW Bush accomplished on foreign policy. He’s withdrawn from the INF and now looks to be abandoning Start II. He’s squandered our goodwill and has the Europeans publicly declaring themselves not to be vassals of the US as they defy the US on Nordstream 2. Some accomplishment.

    Every single time there’s some minor flare-up in the middle east, the alt-right loses their shit, and 2 days later completely forgets about it because nothing important actually happened.

    Minor =/= murdering the equivalent of another country’s joint chief of staff. There will be a reaction.

    Stop listening to shitlibs and the lying legacy media.

    Lay off the Qanon and Free Republic, please. The points I’ve made here are merely the rebuttals to your obviously erroneous talking points. If we made an actual list of the guy’s many failures, it’d be very long. We’d have to add healthcare, infrastructure spending, buying Greenland, NATO spending, North Korea, criminal justice reform (more criminals on the streets), sanctuary cities, his dumb space force, black outreach, etc. etc. etc.

  46. 216 says: • Website
    @SFG
    I don't share his degree of Russophilia, but that's his interest (and heritage), and he covers it well.

    Diasporas contain lots of resentful people with emnity at the host population. But oftentimes they either can’t or worse, won’t, repatriate.

    Karlin did just that, a tremendous vote of confidence in his character.

    The overwhelming majority of ADL and AIPAC supporters don’t make aliyah.

    There can be something positive to say about expatriation as a “relief valve” for social pressures. See a certain Roosh for example.

    Imagine a stable Mexico or even a Second World-level West African country. A lot of subversive people in this country might leave to fit in a more compatible environment.

  47. anon[236] • Disclaimer says:

    I just think its indecent to support countries like China or Iran against America.

    Why? If America is just a large shopping mall, an “idea” as has been promoted by the ruling elite, then it should logically command no brand loyalty from anyone; consumers should go with the best product, in theory — the best ideas. Promoters of the proposition nation apparently never considered that basic contradiction in logic. Besides, America as Wal-Mart isn’t exactly inspiring these days. I’m certainly not going to sacrifice for it when it has done next to nothing for me, when it’s not busy ruining my life for a decade-old Tweet or Facebook post, that is. That would be ridiculous. Loyalty is a two-way street, and we’ve seen next to no reciprocation from the ruling class on nearly any issue we care about. What you’re asking for is blind subservience. No thanks. I consider myself a neutral observer. I exist as a consumer in a mall parking lot, essentially — and so does every “American” reading this. America brought that on itself with its policies. It didn’t have to be that way, but they insisted. It was the paleo-right who protested against that when there was still time to salvage the situation, but noooooo. Now, we’re disloyal? Lol.

    The alt-right seems composed of people of generally low character,

    Did the alt-right give us the Iraq War or any of the many disasters this country has experienced in recent times? Did the alt-right give us mass immigration, endless wars, or a corrupt corporatist government that NEVER enforces monopoly laws? Did they make it controversial to be white? Did they drive white students off the campus of Evergreen State while the media said nothing? Did they give us political correctness or a rising suicide rate or an opioid epidemic initiated by drug companies? Did they give us censorship or political correctness? Did they sell our healthcare policy to big pharma?

    Do they deplatform their enemies from social media or ban their books from sale as Amazon has done? Do they plant bombs under our statues when they aren’t busy tearing them down? Have they refused to prosecute the left’s antifa shock troops? Have they passed congressional resolutions condemning whites and claiming literally every group in this country is oppressed by them …

    Please don’t lecture me about character if you support the system that has produced those things, because no one with any moral fiber could. All you’re asking for is blind subservience to a consumer brand that has done nothing to earn your loyalty with its actions. The bigger question is, why exactly IS anyone loyal to this country?

  48. I don’t think Trump has any intention of launching a ground war with Iran, but it’s worth remembering that Iran couldn’t beat Iraq in 8 years of total war.

  49. There is OBVIOUSLY not going to be a war with Iran. They can’t afford it because of the existing sanctions regime, and if they do anything irregular they lose their entire export oil industry on Karg Island in the Persian Gulf. Now that the U.S. exports crude oil the U.S. Navy need not worry about keeping the Straits of Hormuz open. Iranian oil goes to China anyway, so we possibly get an opportunity to fuck over communist China too.

  50. “I don’t think Trump has any intention of launching a ground war with Iran, but it’s worth remembering that Iran couldn’t beat Iraq in 8 years of total war.”

    I think this accurate. But he may not have that choice.

    • Replies: @Talha
    No, it's not accurate. Since Iraq invaded Iran and Iran was able to keep them at bay - Iran won that conflict. That's how victory works for the defending side.

    Now - they did pay a massive price for it since many of their most experienced officer corps had been recently removed immediately following the Islamic Revolution a year prior.

    But, suffice to say, that nation - especially the Western regions have people alive that grew up during that war and know what level of sacrifice is required to follow things through (there were certain battles where the Iranians lost twice as many as the Iraqis and still came out on top - the city of Khoramshur is a good example). And they have been under sanctions for a long time so they are used to doing without.

    Another thing that many people do not calculate is that there are another 15-20 million Shiahs across the border in Pakistan and there is a marja (top level Shiah Ayatollah) that lives in Punjab. While the Pakistani government has now officially announced it will remain neutral in case of a war between the US and Iran, that actually does more for Iran than anything else. They won't have to worry about that border and likely will be happy to receive Shiah volunteers in the case that the marja in Pakistan tells them to go and fight. There is also a possibility that some Shiahs in Pakistan already follow a marja in Iran or Iraq.

    Afghanistan will likely be used as a launchpad against Iran, but that also risks Iran helping the Taliban in return to help cut supply lines. Outbound supply shipments coming from Baku, Azerbaijan could easily be targeted as well. A besieged field army in hostile territory without adequate supplies? A reasonable possibility*.

    Don't know if there is still an airbase in Turkmenistan or what that country has said its official stance is.

    Peace.

    *Which also brings about this unfortunate possibility:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XQan1qo8T4

  51. @Michael S
    Actually he wasn't elected to end wars OR extend them, the vast majority of his voters were concerned with domestic policy, not foreign.

    Of course, war with Iran would be a horrible move both militarily and politically, but I've seen no evidence that Trump is trying to get us into one, so the whining and blackpilling seems pretty pointless.

    I guess I’m in the minority but Trump coming across as anti-war was one of the top reasons I voted for him. I liked how he criticized the Iraq war. I thought when he bashed Hillary for taking Saudi financing that meant he wouldn’t mess with either Syria or Iran. I also was comforted by how much the neocons hated his guts. I feel like a fool now. I was reading too much into things and was seeing what I wanted to see. Looking back I now think Rand Paul was my closest match of all the GOP 2016 candidates, much more so than Trump.

  52. anon[346] • Disclaimer says:

    I don’t think Trump has any intention of launching a ground war with Iran, but it’s worth remembering that Iran couldn’t beat Iraq in 8 years of total war.

    That was forty years ago. The situation between now and then is not remotely equivalent. That war occurred as Iraq took advantage of Iranian disorganization after the revolution. Iran’s missile capabilities and terror component are now much more advanced. It’s perhaps worth noting that Iran was willing to take enormous casualties for their country during that war, including the use of suicide bombers. The US couldn’t stomach 4,000 casualties in Iraq, a fraction of what Iran took.

  53. anon[214] • Disclaimer says:

    *Zman from the Zblog made a point a couple months ago about how Trump might not actually hold control over the US military, and it may be operating independent of his wishes.

    I think it’s just wishful thinking to blame all the poor decisions Trump makes on others. No one who supported the guy wants to admit the truth of the situation. A lot of Trump supporters are in denial at the moment, but it’s true that Donald Trump is a flawed and perhaps even dangerous imbecile. He’s certainly not the champion we were looking for.

    In this case, the military leaked details of the incident in order to pin it on him. They want him to take all the blame. And there are reports that members of his administration (likely military) objected to this reckless act. From my reading of the Michael Wolfe book, Trump is inattentive and fundamentally incurious. Bolton tried cutting down his national security briefing to just a single page, and he still wouldn’t read it. Considering the neocons he’s staffed his administration with, it is completely believable to me that he was handed the suggestion to do this and just went along with it because he didn’t care to understand the details. Some neocon desperate for war floated a dumb idea to Trump and he went along with it.

  54. anon[336] • Disclaimer says:

    Trump took out men who specifically and successfully planned to kill Americans.

    He murdered a man invited to a country on a diplomatic mission while also murdering senior members of the Iraqi government after having duped them. And there is zero evidence the man was “planning” anything or had killed a single American in any country they were legally permitted to be in at least a decade or perhaps ever.

    If it quacks like a duck, loves up some Tulsi and Ilhan Omar like a duck…

    Israeli troll uses an American flag and exploits racial grievances for his tribe’s interest … said no one ever.

  55. anon[288] • Disclaimer says:

    From TAC:

    The Washington Postreports on how Pompeo pushed for the Soleimani killing for months before this past week … Both the Post report and the AP’s account of the decision confirm that Pompeo’s claims that the assassination was intended to prevent an “imminent” attack is not true … As I said Saturday, the lack of evidence for an “imminent” attack strips this action of any semblance of legality. This is not merely academic, but goes to the heart of the president’s overreaching and abuse of power in matters of war.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/starting-an-illegal-war-on-a-whim/

    Trump has also recently threatened to attack Iranian cultural sites, a monstrous war crime. Senior administration officials are telling the media they won’t obey those orders.

    If it quacks like a duck, loves up some Tulsi

    Hating on Tulsi Gabbard is a standard neoliberal talking point; funny how you’re cool with using it here among us conservatives. It is without merit, and you are only hating on her because you’re a Jewish ethnic activist and she stood in the way of starting a war on Syria for Israel’s benefit — one we now know to be predicated on a lie:

    Media Suppressed Evidence Of The OPCW’s ‘Chemical Attack’ Manipulations – There Is Now More Of It

    https://www.moonofalabama.org

  56. @Achmed E. Newman
    That was a Scott Adams quote. I had thought he was a smart guy, but his last point (of 3) about Trump "failing" is bogus. Yes, Trump is failing, but had he actually got a lot done that was within his ability (plenty!), no matter what the Lyin' Press has to say about it, the patriotic Americans would know he'd done well. He'd be a shoe-in in '20, as patriotic white people would come out to vote in DROVES.

    Oops! Just caught my mistake – Scott Alexander.

  57. Whether or not Iran retaliates is not the most important consequence here. What is important is how we are perceived by the rest of the world. We sucker-punched Iran in a very illegal manner and in doing so we’ve flushed the last shreds of our credibility and our moral authority down the toilet. We will never be trusted again; we will never be welcomed again; even our allies have had enough of us. And despite what some Boomercons choose to believe, we cannot take on the entire world at once.

    This will accelerate the collapse of the empire. China and Russia will continue to de-dollarize and offer the world alternative economic and geostrategic partnerships. America will be isolated, impoverished, and painfully fragmented at home. I just hope the punishment comes while the Boomers are still alive to feel some of it, because the young, who did none of this, are going to be disproportionately screwed.

  58. @EliteCommInc.
    "I don’t think Trump has any intention of launching a ground war with Iran, but it’s worth remembering that Iran couldn’t beat Iraq in 8 years of total war."


    I think this accurate. But he may not have that choice.

    No, it’s not accurate. Since Iraq invaded Iran and Iran was able to keep them at bay – Iran won that conflict. That’s how victory works for the defending side.

    Now – they did pay a massive price for it since many of their most experienced officer corps had been recently removed immediately following the Islamic Revolution a year prior.

    But, suffice to say, that nation – especially the Western regions have people alive that grew up during that war and know what level of sacrifice is required to follow things through (there were certain battles where the Iranians lost twice as many as the Iraqis and still came out on top – the city of Khoramshur is a good example). And they have been under sanctions for a long time so they are used to doing without.

    Another thing that many people do not calculate is that there are another 15-20 million Shiahs across the border in Pakistan and there is a marja (top level Shiah Ayatollah) that lives in Punjab. While the Pakistani government has now officially announced it will remain neutral in case of a war between the US and Iran, that actually does more for Iran than anything else. They won’t have to worry about that border and likely will be happy to receive Shiah volunteers in the case that the marja in Pakistan tells them to go and fight. There is also a possibility that some Shiahs in Pakistan already follow a marja in Iran or Iraq.

    Afghanistan will likely be used as a launchpad against Iran, but that also risks Iran helping the Taliban in return to help cut supply lines. Outbound supply shipments coming from Baku, Azerbaijan could easily be targeted as well. A besieged field army in hostile territory without adequate supplies? A reasonable possibility*.

    Don’t know if there is still an airbase in Turkmenistan or what that country has said its official stance is.

    Peace.

    *Which also brings about this unfortunate possibility:

    • Agree: Blinky Bill

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