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dfordoom samples a wide swath of those who have taken it:

There are people who believe passionately that the government should be spending immense sums on mass transit but who have have never caught a bus or a train in their lives. There are people who are True Believers in the coming Climate Change apocalypse but they don’t seem to think that their beach houses in Malibu will be affected by rising sea levels. There are the passionate antiracists who live in towns that are 98% white.

There are libertarians who seem quite happy to enjoy the benefits of living in a society with a government rather than heading off into the wilderness to put their beliefs in rugged individualism into practice. Zionist Jews who don’t want to give up their apartments in Manhattan to move to Tel Aviv. Liberals who think that intolerance is evil and believe that people who disagree with them should be sent to prison. People who think everybody should be free to love whomever they like but they’ll go berserk if their boyfriend decides to put that into practice by loving a younger hotter woman.

Of course one can quibble. The choice between striking out into undeveloped wilderness and enjoying the imperfect fruits of society that a mixed economy has provided isn’t a pure comparison. But there is New Hampshire.

 
• Category: Culture/Society • Tags: Human condition 
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  1. Twinkie says:

    But there is New Hampshire.

    Portsmouth, yes (notwithstanding the nearby nuclear power station). Elsewhere in the state, no.

    The White Mountains are beautiful when the leaves die, though.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  2. There are the passionate antiracists who live in towns that are 98% white.

    Hillary Clinton is a baby boomer hypocrite fraud when it comes to racial issues.

    Baby boomer hypocrite fraud Hillary Clinton moved to the mostly White town of Chappaqua, New York, in order to avoid having to live anywhere near Blacks and other non-Whites.

    Plutocrat hypocrites in the Democrat Party and the Republican Party love to call modest income regular White Americans racists when they say that they want mass legal immigration halted and mass illegal immigration stopped completely.

    Plutocrat hypocrites in the Democrat Party and the Republican Party downplay the destructiveness and disruptions of Black criminality and Mestizo criminality. Hillary Clinton knows damn well that most of the violent crime in New York City is committed by Blacks and Mestizos, but she’ll call you a horrible deplorable so-called “racist” for pointing that out. Hillary Clinton loves the peace and tranquility she gets from living around plutocrat Whites and upper middle class Whites in Chappaqua, New York.

    Tweet from 2015:

  3. Talha says:

    Well stated – hypocrisy is just universally not respectable, no matter where it comes from.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @lavoisier
  4. anon[267] • Disclaimer says:

    The key to understanding this phenomenon is to realize that proponents of these beliefs don’t actually prioritize them higher than their immediate comfort. There is the assumption in all of this that people are genuine in their intentions: when people say they are “for the environment” they really are “for the environment” and aren’t simply using the topic to score social points on their socioeconomic rivals. Very often, though, that assumption is false. In reality, people say, and sometimes delude themselves into believing, things they think will advantage them.

    60s liberals, afraid they’d be censored by the conservative majority, promoted free expression because that policy advantaged them by preventing the expurgation of their works; now that they have all the power, they support censoring speech because they think it is to their advantage to silence potential challengers to their authority. 90s Libertarians, wealthier than average, supported tax policies that benefited them financially; that same group refused to give up many government social services and comforts because it was to their advantage not to. Modern day Hollywood liberals rail against conservative, Trump-voting racists but nearly all of them send their kids to elite private schools or live in racially homogeneous abodes like Malibu (~97% white and very wealthy).

    We’ve seen this historically, too. Ancient Sparta opposed the empire Athens built, calling it oppressive, because doing so rallied allies to their banner and, in the process, protected them from a powerful opponent; as soon as Sparta defeated Athens in the Polynesian war, however, they quickly built their own short-lived empire. The same phenomenon repeats throughout all of human history – the Soviet Union, the United States, the EU, etc. It’s important to realize that people do and say the things that are to their benefit. They are Machiavellians by nature, and the ones that play this game best often win the game of life and end up ruling the country and the economy. Those people are, more often than not, disingenuous, sanctimonious, trend-chasing sociopaths (or nearly so). As Anatoly Karlin put it, the future looks like it’s going to be Eloi and Morlock.

  5. Rosie says:

    People who think everybody should be free to love whomever they like but they’ll go berserk if their boyfriend decides to put that into practice by loving a younger hotter woman.

    Godless YOLOism is terrible for women.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  6. There are libertarians who seem quite happy to enjoy the benefits of living in a society with a government rather than heading off into the wilderness to put their beliefs in rugged individualism into practice.

    Ayn Rand applied for Medicare late in life when she realized that her health care expenses would bankrupt her, despite her ideological opposition to government programs. In other contexts people would consider that a shrewd financial move, because she saved a fortune by shifting the costs of her care onto American taxpayers, and the money she left in her estate became the seed funding for organized Ayn Rand cultism in the 1980’s.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if the Israelis who run the Ayn Rand Institute now plan to fly home for Israel’s socialized health care when they get sick.

    • LOL: Rosie
  7. I’ve also noticed that libertarians don’t believe their own propaganda about the advantages of “hard money” over fiat. Stefan Molyneux has uploaded videos for years about the evils of fiat money and the imminence of hyperinflation that never seems to happen; yet a couple weeks back he recorded one about how the effort to demonetize his videos has hurt him financially. He asked his supporters to send him fiat money through the usual channels instead of, say, shipping boxes full of gold coins to some address in Canada.

    This shows why libertarian theorizing about “hard money” hasn’t gotten any traction in the culture. Normal, non-Aspergerish people can see that the fiat money they use every day works just fine.

  8. iffen says:
    @advancedatheist

    Normal, non-Aspergerish people can see that the fiat money they use every day works just fine.

    Especially if you have plenty of it.

    • Replies: @advancedatheist
  9. 216 says: • Website
    @advancedatheist

    I find crypto to hard to understand, and too volatile in value; such it never made much sense for me.

    Mailing gold or precious metals would incur insurance charges.

    If the three comment limit is kneecapping you, I have Telegram.

    https://t.me/capetocairo

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  10. Big Daddy says:

    Yes, New Hampshire is at least half the way to Liberty paradise. And mile per mile the most beautiful state in the union. Climb the 22 minutes up Rattlesnake Peak for a breathtaking panorama.

  11. @iffen

    Gold coins in a hard-money system won’t do you any good if you don’t have any.

  12. @advancedatheist

    This shows why libertarian theorizing about “hard money” hasn’t gotten any traction in the culture.

    That’s because “normal” people are unimaginably ignorant of how money comes into creation. Once it’s explained to them (and the knock-on effects), they generally get pissed off. Assuming they have at least a room-temperature IQ, that is.

    Also, you have no idea if Molyneaux purchases gold, and if you had bothered to do even 30 seconds of searching on the Internet, you’d see he accepts Bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies), is an advocate for those, and also gold.

    Normal, non-Aspergerish people can see that the fiat money they use every day works just fine.

    Yes, if you’re a beneficiary of the Cantillon Effect, or an advocate of expanding ZOG, war, bankers, crony capitalism, empire, screwing the poor and ignorant, or perhaps merely just an ignorant, insufferable, fetid sphincter.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @advancedatheist
  13. Of course one can quibble.

    Yeah, you got it. One quibble coming right up.

    There are libertarians who seem quite happy to enjoy the benefits of living in a society with a government rather than heading off into the wilderness to put their beliefs in rugged individualism into practice.

    Yes, because that’s the definition of Liberty – heading out into the wilderness with no government. I this another version of “Go live in Somalia” I hate to tell guys like dfordoom, that get their basic definitions wrong, but Somalia has Chaos, not Libertarianism.

    Otherwise, I get the point, and Mr. Doom has spread his accusations of hypocrisy around nicely. BTW, great title, A.E.

  14. @advancedatheist

    … shifting the costs of her care onto American taxpayers, …

    Maybe that was just her way of demonstrating how Socialism sucks … yeah, and saving some money while doing it. ;-}

  15. Twinkie says:
    @advancedatheist

    boxes full of gold coins

    I find bricks of 22 LR ammo to be much better hard currency. Their values will only rise in social unrest situations. And if they don’t, I just use them.

  16. Twinkie says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Somalia has Chaos, not Libertarianism.

    Yes, but that’s what libertarianism devoid of social order eventually becomes – warlordism.

    Men (and women) are not tied and kept in order by enlightened self-interest. They are bound thusly by a sense of community engendered by kinship, shared experiences (especially of hardship and fighting together), and commonly-held view of the divine (yes, God).

    The paradox of libertarianism is precisely that it only works when people have distinctly un-libertarian views of adhering to ideas greater than self-interest, that is, community… and God.

  17. Twinkie says:
    @Rosie

    Godless YOLOism is terrible for women.

    That’s terrible for everyone, not just women.

    younger hotter woman.

    If you are older and less attractive, you must compete with other attributes, such as being agreeable, graceful, and charming or perhaps being an attentive wife and mother who doesn’t waste time arguing with strangers on the internet.

  18. Bill H says: • Website

    I started a furious family fight not long ago by pointing out that if you want the government to do good works but don’t want to pay taxes to pay for it (“tax the rich”), then you don’t want to do good works, you want someone else to do good works.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @druid55
  19. Huge Asteroid Apophis Flies By Earth on Friday the 13th in 2029

    Although scientists are positive Apophis won’t hit Earth in 2029 ….

    Aren’t these the same scientists who tell us catastrophic climate change will wipe us out before the end of the century?

    https://www.space.com/asteroid-apophis-2029-flyby-planetary-defense.html

    • Replies: @95Theses
  20. iffen says:
    @Twinkie

    And I thought that I have a mean streak.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  21. Here’s another one to add to DforDoom’s list, and it may apply to lots of commenters here: There are people that rightly deride the state of American culture and the “Bread & Circuses” our elites provide to keep people from thinking about our real problems. Yet, these same people WILL NOT CUT OFF THEIR CABLE TV SERVICE!

    Put your money, or rather, recoup some money, where your mouths are, unz commenters. You are supporting the very crap that you spend 100’s of posts/comments bitching about. No, this DOES NOT include me – been off TV for 20 years. Here’s a quick anecdote on my dealings with the salesman.

  22. iffen says:

    Hypocritic Oath

    This is normal behavior.

    I would love for my community to made up of devout Catholic Twinkie families, but I want to hold on to muh atheism.

    • Replies: @Talha
  23. BCB232 says:

    Brilliant! Both the comment and your title.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  24. People throw the term ‘virtue signalling’, but it’s really ‘status signalling’, even if it’s mainly unconscious. Like the middle-class white student with tattoos and dreadlocks, you are signalling that you don’t need to get a real job.

    https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-status-symbol-for-rich-americans/

    • Replies: @BCB232
  25. Talha says:
    @iffen

    Why can’t you have both? Other people can be traditional Catholics in the neighborhood while you do the Ebeneezer Scrooge thing.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
  26. iffen says:
    @Talha

    Why can’t you have both?

    That’s what I meant. I didn’t do a good job of explaining that. I’m a hypocrite because I want to keep my atheist view while benefiting from the good community behavior that devout religious people usually exhibit.

  27. countenance says: • Website

    Way back when, the 55 national speed limit was enacted mostly by people who never drove long distances.

  28. Twinkie says:
    @iffen

    Did I not speak the truth? 😉

  29. Mark G. says:
    @Twinkie

    What you describe sounds a little like Burkean conservatism. I always thought the American Revolution was more successful than the French Revolution because it combined Lockean liberalism with Burkean conservatism whereas the French revolution was a combination of Lockean liberalism and Rousseauian egalitarianism. Locke plus Burke led to freedom and order. Locke plus Rousseau led to Robespierre and the guillotine followed by the dictator Bonaparte.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  30. BCB232 says:
    @TelfoedJohn

    That is a very interesting point. Virtue is status, but your way of putting it gets to the point of the exercise more directly. It says “my status is high enough I don’t have to worry about this.”

  31. druid55 says:
    @Bill H

    I want the government to do good works. I pay my taxes. The problem is that 60% of the budget goes into the MIC complex. Would that I could choose where my taxes go – the MIC complex would cease quickly.

  32. Twinkie says:
    @Mark G.

    What you describe sounds a little like Burkean conservatism.

    More than a little, I hope, because I AM a Burkean conservative. Ordered liberty, to be concise.

  33. @advancedatheist

    Ayn Rand was a terribly unlikely spokesperson for what was, in her day, the early libertarian movement. She was so clearly unhinged that I could never take her seriously and I found her novels unreadable. Usually, her libertarian fans counter that statement of mine by saying that her principles were sound and groundbreaking, but in fact, her ideas were all simply taken from earlier (and clearer) thinkers.

    The Objectivist cult that grew up around her writing should be proof enough of the quality, or lack thereof, of her works. I’ve never known an objectivist who wasn’t an insufferable asshole.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  34. Twinkie says:
    @Twodees Partain

    The secret sin theory of politics says you should listen to libertarians, but never elect them into office/power.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  35. 95Theses says:
    @The Alarmist

    Those claims were clearly in need of an aster-isk. ツ

  36. @Ash Williams

    Money doesn’t exist as some spooky metaphysical reality or as a given fact of nature; it has always depended on political construction. Gold would lose its value immediately if all the state governments announced tomorrow that they no longer recognize anything made of gold as a form of property, and they refused to treat the theft of gold as a crime.

    • Replies: @Talha
  37. “Money doesn’t exist as some spooky metaphysical reality or as a given fact of nature; it has always depended on political construction.”

    I would amend to socio-economic construction. And why I think as a standard something tangible is desireable to anchor said construction to something concrete.

  38. Talha says:
    @advancedatheist

    I don’t think so – gold is entrenched in many cultures as having value as jewelry and what not. Otherwise people wouldn’t think much about stealing it.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  39. lavoisier says: • Website
    @Talha

    Well stated – hypocrisy is just universally not respectable, no matter where it comes from.

    Sorry to disagree my friend but in our current corrupt world hypocrisy cannot even be recognized, much less condemned.

    • Replies: @Talha
  40. @Twinkie

    I was more directly referring to the free state project. Libertarians need not strike out into the wilderness, but they could move to New Hampshire en masse and create something closer to the libertarian ideal than anywhere else in the country.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    , @Twinkie
  41. PhilK says:
    @advancedatheist

    Back in my days of misspent youth, I used to go to a “Libertarian Supper Club” held in the banquet room of a local restaurant. As bamboozled as I was at that time, I still had to roll my eyes at the guys who always told the waitresses bringing them drinks that “I don’t have any money, so I’ll just have to pay you with these worthless Federal Reserve notes.”

  42. @216

    Trading in precious metals is rapidly getting much easier. My long-term bet is that this will be the future.

    One major problem with cryptos is the lack of any limiting factor. Sure, there can only be 21 million bitcoins (for now), but there can be an infinite number of copycat cryptos. Not so with actual precious metals. Now that the latter is in the process of being able to be traded like the former promises to be, the latter will win out.

  43. @Achmed E. Newman

    About a decade ago I realized how unfair I’d been to rhetorically throw around the Somalia taunt. You are exactly right.

  44. @Twinkie

    The libertarian response is that those things need not be enforced at the barrel of a gun. A hypothetical libertarian society could have plenty of structure, like a corporation or a religious community does.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @dfordoom
  45. @Twinkie

    perhaps being an attentive wife and mother who doesn’t waste time arguing with strangers on the internet.

    Twinkie always carries a knife. He doesn’t always or even frequently use it, but it’s always there.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Twodees Partain
  46. Talha says:
    @lavoisier

    “‘Years of treachery will come over people in which liars are believed and the truthful are denied, the deceitful are trusted and the trustworthy are considered traitors, and the disgraceful will deliver speeches.’ It was asked, ‘Who are the disgraceful?’ The Prophet said, ‘Petty men with authority over the common people.’” – reported in Ibn Majah

    Peace.

    • Replies: @lavoisier
  47. @Audacious Epigone

    Libertarians are just conservatives who want to flock huirs and smuk dup. Of the list, they are the biggest hypocrites by far.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  48. @Twinkie

    Very good. No-one ever mentions the qualities that would attract most men (secretly, discreetly) to less physically attractive women. Oh, for an agreeable charming graceful wife.

    What most men get is an ugly, disagreeable, graceless, charmless wife.

    If karma exists it is a monster.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  49. Libertarians are lonely jock imbeciles. They hold those views because they got theirs. (Or at least they think they do. They are usually so stupid they think a million dollars is a lot of money.) They actually want white people they don’t know to starve to death with their children in the cold streets. Because . . . wait for it . . . they got theirs! So fuck everybody else!

  50. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    free state project

    Yes, I know. That went nowhere fast, didn’t it?

    If you don’t mind the nuclear power station, Portsmouth is a pretty (during the summer anyway) whitopia. Idaho and even WV is more my thing, but YMMV.

    One thing I find as I age is I crave natural beauty a lot more and socialization much less. If it weren’t for the wife and children, I’d live in a remote, inaccessible cabin on a mountain, with a few dogs.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  51. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    enforced at the barrel of a gun.

    But social norms have to be enforced, not by guns, but by social opprobrium and exclusion if necessary. If we are to have ordered liberty, individual determination and gratification can’t be the greatest good.

    But with a communal structure like that in place that functions well, what’s the point of libertarianism? To me, libertarianism, though cerebrally appealing to be sure, is a solution looking for questions.

  52. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    You didn’t find it at least a little bit humorous, even if dry?

    • Replies: @iffen
  53. When I first read this article, it prompted introspection about my own presentation and self. For people such as myself who make quite a thing about being conservative. The process of insuring a consistent posture and ethos to practice and positions takes work.

    Since my belief in a savior is part of that process, one has to admit that complete and total alignment is always an ongoing process. The best one can hope for is to be aware of what contradictions exist, acknowledge them and be prepared to address them.

    The place in which i feel most vulnerable is on the matter of celibacy. Not because I treat it a sometimes thing, just the opposite, but in todays’ age — the idea is not just alien, and living with a woman — laugh – certainly invites incredulity.

    But I am certainly willing to allow people to have contradictions as human beings. I think what I chagrin is the choice to dismiss them.

  54. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Audacious Epigone

    The libertarian response is that those things need not be enforced at the barrel of a gun.

    Any political or economic system depends on the ultimate threat of force. The alternative is chaos. You can have an iron fist in a velvet glove or you can dispense with the velvet glove but the iron fist has to be there. What matters is that the iron fist gets used sparingly and justly.

    There’s also the problem of scale. A small community of maybe 10,000 people can rely almost entirely on social pressure to keep order. That’s more difficult with a million people. It’s very difficult indeed with 300 hundred million people. And your small community of 10,000 people can only exist as long as much more powerful states are prepared to allow it to exist.

    You could build a libertarian paradise in New Hampshire but the Republic of New Hampshire would only exist as long as the U.S. Government was prepared to tolerate its existence. Unless the New Hampshire libertarians were wise enough to develop their own nuclear deterrent.

    Gun enthusiasts love to say that an armed society is a peaceful polite society. It’s the same with international relations. A world in which every state, even the smallest, has nuclear weapons will be a peaceful polite world.

    A hypothetical libertarian society could have plenty of structure, like a corporation or a religious community does.

    But on a large scale those structures will become bureaucratic and oppressive. If corporations became independent political entities they would have their own secret police forces and their own courts and their own prisons in order to maintain order.

  55. “A world in which every state, even the smallest, has nuclear weapons will be a peaceful polite world.”

    You speak as if humans are forever rational and that simply is not the case. take two similarly situated states India and Pakistan — the history of their polite exchanges could fit in a saucer.

    There is jut to much unpredictability in the human psyche and circumstance (chaos) to rest assured is this polite existence via nuclear weapons. I get it — mutual destruction is supposed to ensure the better angels of our natures —

    But the number of “near misses” is enough to give one pause.

    That city states of the old world ha them in constant tit for tats. Libertarians assume that they can resolve all matter according to negotiated settlements. But have no answers of what to do when party chooses not to come to the table and their outsized wallets hold all others at bay.

  56. iffen says:
    @Twinkie

    Maybe he is like me and is a little troubled by the fact that you seem to “punch down” a little more than is absolutely necessary.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  57. Twinkie says:
    @iffen

    punch down

    1. Rosie is a big girl. (No pun intended. Ok, maybe a little.)

    2. I don’t play the victim card and I expect others not to as well.

    3. That was not punching down. That was a gentle ribbing. When I “punch down,” I make sure there is a corpse at the end.

    • Replies: @iffen
  58. Twinkie says:
    @obwandiyag

    What most men get

    I hope not.

    Most women can be very appealing to most men. They were made that way.

    Can be.

  59. iffen says:
    @Twinkie

    Well, it’s no biggie.

    And you are right that she should put her big girl panties on if she wants to play with the big boys and accept the rules.

    But do you have to kick the corpse?

    She’s no match for you. She knows it, you know it, I know it and the err, more astute commenters know it.

    But there is the race thing with her and I don’t really have a reference for that vis-a-vis you, so I might feel differently if I was not a member of the great Nordic race.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  60. @Twinkie

    Yes, that seems to be the operative rule. Given the way the LP conducts campaigns, there’s little danger of any of their candidates getting into office.

  61. @Talha

    Gold is historically viewed as the perfect store of value, making it the standard choice for real money. Even the fiat money issuers, central banks, view gold this way despite their pretense that their paper backed by chuckles and grins is anything other than paper, or electronic entries in databases.

  62. @Audacious Epigone

    “Twinkie always carries a knife. He doesn’t always or even frequently use it, but it’s always there.”

    He carries it into gunfights on occasion, I’ve observed. 😉

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  63. Twinkie says:
    @Twodees Partain

    He carries it into gunfights on occasion, I’ve observed.

    Sure beats showing up empty-handed as some of you are wont to do. 😉

    Putting on my Rambo-American mode on for the moment, I’ve been shot and I have been stabbed, and within 20 feet or so, I fear the knife more. And soft body armor doesn’t deal with it well either.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  64. Twinkie says:
    @iffen

    She’s no match for you. She knows it, you know it, I know it and the err, more astute commenters know it.

    You are right. I’ll ease up on her. But no promises if she annoys me again.

    But there is the race thing with her and I don’t really have a reference for that vis-a-vis you, so I might feel differently if I was not a member of the great Nordic race.

    Whut?

    • Replies: @iffen
  65. @obwandiyag

    “Libertarians are just conservatives who want to flock huirs and smuk dup.”

    I hate it when they flock huirs almost as much as when they smuk dup.

  66. @Twinkie

    Ah, the beauty of online discussions is that those who want to be badasses can just say that they are. It doesn’t make one a badass except in their own minds, but whatever helps the self image….

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  67. @Twinkie

    Depending on how they’re counted, there are around 15 million libertarians in the country. If just 10% of them made the move to New Hampshire, they’d run the state. That’s what the free state project is banking on, but as dfordoom alludes to, far fewer than 10% of libertarians care enough to make this happen.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Mark G.
  68. dfordoom says: • Website

    there are around 15 million libertarians in the country. If just 10% of them made the move to New Hampshire, they’d run the state. That’s what the free state project is banking on, but as dfordoom alludes to, far fewer than 10% of libertarians care enough to make this happen.

    If they took over the place they’d have to govern it. They’d have to grapple with real-world problems. Maybe they’d prefer to keep libertarianism as a fantasy ideology rather than expose it to the test of the real world. In theory libertarianism works brilliantly. It would be very embarrassing if it were to be put into practice and fail.

    • Agree: Twinkie
  69. Twinkie says:
    @Twodees Partain

    those who want to be badasses can just say that they are.

    They could. But their lack knowledge would be exposed rather quickly once there is a serious discussion about elements of the sad badassery.

    Several commenters here initially doubted what I claimed (Judo and BJJ black belt) and then changed their minds after an extended discussion or two. You can’t fake my level of knowledge that comes from decades of training and experience. One commenter even thanked me for enabling him to emerge harmless from an encounter (he read what I wrote about cutting angles in a fight and actually tried it when some homeless guy lunged at him or something to that effect).

    There was some jackass here sometime ago who was going on and on about me being a Walter Mitty or something (and he used sock puppets in an effort to “entrap” me), but he was too clueless to understand issues involving barrel harmonics, parabolic nature of the bullet rise/drop, etc. – the basics of long distance marksmanship.

    I didn’t get my knowledge from video games. I got them through sweat, tears, and blood. You are free to query me on some of these topics. But given the ad hominem so far, I would wager that you don’t even understand enough to know what questions to ask… hence the ad hominem.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  70. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    far fewer than 10% of libertarians care enough to make this happen.

    Because libertarians, by and large, are free-riders to other people’s virtue.

    • Agree: dfordoom
  71. @216

    As I have posted my three comments within the hour . . . it will be another 60 minutes before i will respond to your comments on the discussion regarding SA flag and its meaning.

  72. iffen says:
    @Twinkie

    I think that you can count on her trying to provoke you again. It has been only a couple of months since she went whinning to the schoolmarm about you. He told her then that if she would leave you alone that you would likely leave her alone.

    As you said, we only know the people here through their comments. I think that she is clearly in search of male approval. She only writes about men and WN. She seldom writes about children or women, or any other subjects. For all we know she is sitting at her computer waiting for Prince Charming. She has a fairy tale view of life and cannot incorporate basic biological sexual behaviors into her thinking. Just like Stockholm syndrome is real, the abused woman syndrome is real. She likely found that picture of Twinkies and became overwhelmed with the urge to get some sort of attention from you by posting it.

    But no promises if she annoys me again.

    Not good enough. You should understand that she is trying to get the attention even if the abuse comes with it and not go along with it. This would have sufficed: As I mentioned already, I call for social exclusion against both men and women of loose morality. Instead, in addition, you also had to backhand her with knuckles to the teeth. I want to use me as an example. I repeatedly ridiculed AaronB and didn’t think much of it because I assumed that he could “take it.” Once I saw that he couldn’t, I stopped. You can see that she is more or less defenseless when she tries to take you on and it is incumbent upon you to not abuse her.

    Whut?

    I don’t know how I would react to a WN if I was not white. I make allowance for you in that you may feel compelled to “do battle” against the idea and its representatives. I have no compunction about kicking my enemies when they are down, so if she is “the enemy” to you, then I understand your responses to her and absolve you of any moral failing.

    Liberia? Really Twinkie. Do you truly want to go that route?

    • Replies: @RSDB
    , @Twinkie
  73. Mark G. says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Libertarians don’t need to control a state to use as a libertarian demonstration project. Free market think tanks like Cato or Fraser put out yearly reports ranking countries by how free they are. Higher ranking countries generally have higher per capita incomes and longer average life expectancies than lower ranking countries. In the nineteenth century, government spending in Britain and the U.S. averaged less than ten percent of GDP. These countries led the world during this period in an industrial revolution that lifted mankind out of the poverty that had been their fate for centuries. It is not a coincidence that the industrial revolution happened in the freest countries in the world in history. Without this period of freedom, we would still be living the lives of third world peasants.

  74. RSDB says:
    @iffen

    I don’t know how I would react to a WN if I was not white.

    Well, I’m not Twinkie and I know this conversation is mostly between you and him. But, anyway, this jumped out at me a bit; I really don’t mind online WNs very much. In real life I would probably avoid such people, but on the internet, and especially on fringe sites like this where one mostly comes for the diversity of opinion and free-wheeling attitude, one expects to interact with all sorts of characters.

    I would make an exception to the above statement in the case of those commenters who sound like they could pick up some extra money as FBI plants if they aren’t already.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Twinkie
    , @iffen
  75. iffen says:
    @RSDB

    I really don’t mind online WNs very much.

    Are you white?

    I really wish that I hadn’t gotten into it again. I tried once before and it didn’t work.

    It’s not a fair and honorable fight. He should realize that, take it to heart and stop. He wouldn’t physically beat up some old woman that had no idea how to fight, so why does he do it with words?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @RSDB
  76. Twinkie says:
    @iffen

    Not good enough.

    Nah. I don’t disarm unilaterally even if my opponent is weak of body or mind.

    absolve you of any moral failing.

    Kudos to you. You’ve come so far from shouting out random curses and Asian female body parts just a few months ago to handing out absolutions!

    You know, I already have a guy for that – he wears a cassock.

    so if she is “the enemy”

    She is not, much as se often writes like she is. And what little rhetorical spanking I give her pales in comparison to what goes on routinely around these parts. But I do appreciate the fact that you hold me to a higher standard. You clearly think well of me.

    I don’t know how I would react to a WN if I was not white.

    Why don’t you try a few nights in a black ghetto and find out?

    • Replies: @iffen
  77. Twinkie says:
    @iffen

    It’s not a fair and honorable fight.

    No such thing. Not what my (largely white) instructors taught me in the school of death and mayhem.

    He wouldn’t physically beat up some old woman that had no idea how to fight

    I would if she kept lunging at me with a fork. At some point, a deranged dog, no matter how weak or old, has to be incapacitated if it keeps trying to bite.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  78. Twinkie says:
    @RSDB

    on the internet

    If I minded, they wouldn’t still be spouting off.

    I don’t mind them online either. That’s why I just “talk” to them. In real life, people who threaten harm to me or my family get more than words.

  79. RSDB says:
    @iffen

    Are you white?

    Not very. My ancestry is pretty mixed, but the largest clump is Ceylonese.

    He wouldn’t physically beat up some old woman that had no idea how to fight, so why does he do it with words?

    This is none of my business, but, disregarding that for the moment, he would, though, I suppose, if she were physically attacking his children. I don’t class rhetorical assault on UR as being particularly serious, but I can see how someone else might– at least, that is, serious to the relatively minor extent of provoking retorts in kind.

    • Replies: @iffen
  80. iffen says:
    @Twinkie

    You’ve come so far from shouting out random curses and Asian female body parts just a few months ago to handing out absolutions!

    I object to the description as random.

    We all have our faults. I have acknowledged this style as one of mine. I don’t defend it.

    But I do appreciate the fact that you hold me to a higher standard. You clearly think well of me.

    I do.

    46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

  81. iffen says:
    @RSDB

    but I can see how someone else might

    That was my point. I can see how some non-white person might take the whole online WN hooey as an existential threat and legitimately react accordingly.

  82. Twinkie says:
    @iffen

    online WN hooey as an existential threat

    Net-Nazis are clowns. I don’t take them seriously. They are counterproductive to the extent that they 1) might encourage an already deranged person to do something violent, 2) suck up digital oxygen from substantive discussions, and 3) serve as scapegoats by the powers-that-be.

    My comments toward Rosie and the like are usually laced with humor (okay, derision at times), but are never malicious and vicious (though they might seem that way to snowflakes steeped in fake outrage culture, especially given the very real vitriol they direct at me).

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @iffen
  83. @Twinkie

    What ad hominem was that? Anyone can claim anything and can do websearches to provide whatever they need to “back up” their claims in a discussion online. I don’t have any questions for you, pal. Your claims of badassery are just claims.

    One thing about badasses; those who feel the need to tell strangers that they are bad, ain’t. One thing to know about internet discussions is that revealing personal things is not a good idea. Telling tales to impress strangers is generally an even worse idea.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  84. iffen says:
    @Twinkie

    but are never malicious and vicious (though they might seem that way to snowflakes

    I’m not a snowflake and they are mean and malicious and vicious.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  85. Twinkie says:
    @iffen

    I’m not a snowflake and they are mean and malicious and vicious.

    We will have to disagree. They are pretty mild compared to bulk of the insults that are hurled around here – including your own.

    Come on now. There are people here threatening the Day of the Rope to nonwhites and “race traitors.” Rosie and her ilk don’t even recognize my children (let alone me) as fellow Americans (even though they descend from a Continental Army officer, and many of their ancestors, including their father, have shed blood for this country). And you write a multi-comment thread about me being vicious, because I made a jest of her not spending enough time with her family?

    If you keep this up, I am going to have to think that you have a passive-aggressive tendency to try to paint me as a villain in a roundabout way ever since you failed to do so by direct assault.

    • Replies: @iffen
  86. Twinkie says:
    @Twodees Partain

    What ad hominem was that?

    You implied that I was making things up – that I was a poser and a liar. Don’t backtrack now.

    Anyone can claim anything and can do websearches to provide whatever they need to “back up” their claims in a discussion online.

    I figured you’d write this. Very predictable for someone who is not accomplished or is an expert at anything. I got news for you. Not everything is online. And even when things are online, it takes expertise to know what’s the real deal and what’s just nonsense.

    Allow me to demonstrate through an example. Let’s just say that you claim to be a Judo expert and that you have competed at high levels. Okay, I don’t trust you, and *I* happen to be experienced in Judo, so let me ask you this. Look at this video clip and tell me what the technique in no. 3 is called that Dashdavaa of Mongolia performs (1:55 mark). Tell me what it is in Japanese and what it’s called in English (two variants):

    Go ahead and do your web search and find the names, and post the link. I doubt you can. But let’s say you get really lucky and find some information that answers the question somehow. But I still don’t trust you, so I’ll notch up the level: when you perform a reverse Seoi-Nage on your left side, which hand does Tsurite and which hand does Hikite? Go do a web search and see if you can find the answer. It is highly unlikely that you’d be able to answer that unless you have a deep knowledge in Judo and have competed at high levels (because it is not a standard technique that is taught at most street corner schools and is really only used at high-level international matches).

    One thing about badasses; those who feel the need to tell strangers that they are bad, ain’t.

    Where did you get that? A John Wayne movie? I can tell you never did athletics, let alone combat athletics. There are quiet tough guys, sure, but there are lots of boastful tough guys. If you sat in enough locker rooms doing combat sports (boxing, Judo, wrestling, whatever), you will have seen and heard lots of fighters flexing at each other, posturing, trying to “psych” each other out and doing “dominance displays.”

    The quiet tough guy does exist, but it’s a movie trope that is overdone and overused. And it’s a trope that internet tough guys use a lot (“I don’t talk about what I’ve done – I’m the strong, silent type”), because they actually don’t know the technical details of the training and experience required to be a “tough guy” and wouldn’t be able to carry out an intelligent conversation about them.

    One thing to know about internet discussions is that revealing personal things is not a good idea. Telling tales to impress strangers is generally an even worse idea.

    I have not revealed anything that would give me away to people who don’t know me already (as much as I share, I know where the line is). And when I discuss personal defense and combat issues, it’s not to “impress strangers,” but to share knowledge. As much as I make throwaway lines sometimes, I have also written very dense, information-packed comments with lots of videos and links to impart my knowledge and experience to attentive readers here who are interested in learning something… as opposed to those who don’t engage that information – critically or otherwise – and simply resort to ad hominem in a desperate attempt to denigrate someone they don’t even know.

  87. iffen says:
    @Twinkie

    We will have to disagree.

    Yes, we disagree upon the point of disagreement. I will drop it and not bring it back up. Maybe she has learned her lesson and will not direct any more comments in your direction.

    If you keep this up, I am going to have to think that you have a passive-aggressive tendency to try to paint me as a villain in a roundabout way ever since you failed to do so by direct assault.

    I thought you told me that I wasn’t supposed to psycho-babble on other people’s motivations. Okay for you and not for me?

    I do not try to paint you as a villain. I point out faults, just like you do. I think I am much better at seeing and acknowledging mine than you are with yours. For example, you say you don’t like to not accept what a commenter says about himself in a comment, then you do it.

    The reasons for my frequent interaction with you and your comments are: you write good comments, you comment on subjects in which you are knowledgeable that I am interested in, for example, history and the military, and I have so many on the CTI list that it magnifies the number of your comments in my read.

    I am satisfied with our current dialogue as opposed to the time when, as you describe it, “I was trying to paint you as a villain.” I am ready to move on.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  88. iffen says:
    @RSDB

    especially on fringe sites like this where one mostly comes for the diversity of opinion and free-wheeling attitude

    I meant to comment on this earlier and I forgot. That is what I like about The UR. What I don’t like is that there is very seldom any “resolution.” Commenters mostly talk past each other even on quality posts like AE’s.

    Substantive issues are not usually addressed in the media (maybe I just don’t know where to look). For the US, it is difficult to think of an issue of greater significance than the race question, but it is never discussed or illuminated. The 1619 project at the NYT will blaze for a while then fade without it ever being evaluated and discussed. Pity.

    • Replies: @Dissident
  89. Twinkie says:
    @iffen

    I am ready to move on.

    Let’s.

  90. Dissident says:
    @iffen

    What I don’t like is that there is very seldom any “resolution.” Commenters mostly talk past each other even on quality posts like AE’s.

    I agree. I’m not sure how often it would be realistic or even that reasonable to expect actual resolution, at least not with questions of any real difficulty or complexity. But it seems relatively uncommon for people to even really listen and give honest thought and consideration to the arguments presented by others. Even less common for one to concede a point or admit an error or fault. Once committed to a certain view, position or side, rare is the individual who remains open to considering anything that challenges it.

    Substantive issues are not usually addressed in the media (maybe I just don’t know where to look).

    Some are addressed but rarely in a serious, open or even honest manner. The mainstream media is committed to furthering The Agenda.

    For the US, it is difficult to think of an issue of greater significance than the race question, but it is never discussed or illuminated.

    Certainly not illuminated and never discussed honestly (within polite society). Yet, we are repeatedly told that we need to have “an honest discussion about race”, etc. Orwellian.

    • Replies: @iffen
  91. iffen says:
    @Dissident

    it would be realistic or even that reasonable to expect actual resolution

    Of course not, that was completely worded wrong. I really meant that there is seldom any movement toward any further understanding or clarity.

    we are repeatedly told that we need to have “an honest discussion about race”, etc. Orwellian.

    It’s surreal. President Obama saying that we need to have a conversation and it has no connection to reality.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  92. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    I really meant that there is seldom any movement toward any further understanding or clarity.

    That’s because most people’s views on most political issues are overwhelmingly driven by emotion.

    I suspect that even applies to purely economic issues. Economic libertarians aren’t economic libertarians because they’ve spent years studying and thinking about economics. They’re economic libertarians because it feels right to them. It’s emotionally satisfying. The same applies to socialists.

    There’s no point in trying to reason with somebody whose views are entirely emotion-driven.

    The best you can do is to concentrate on engaging with the small minority of people who are capable of engaging with issues in a non-emotional (or relatively non-emotional) manner.

    • Replies: @iffen
  93. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    The best you can do is to concentrate on engaging with the small minority of people who are capable of engaging with issues in a non-emotional (or relatively non-emotional) manner.

    Yes. I’ve come around to believing that the variable part of inherited emotions is a key to political views. Like almost everything else it is a matter of environmental influences throughout life on that inherited biological base.

    The 1st cut is basic literacy. The 2nd cut is the ability to distinguish fact from opinion. Do you want to make a guess as to the % that make this cut? Interspersed at this cut are those who can or could make the distinction, but are ideological motivated to selectively use facts for partisan purposes. Many of the commenters here are highly literate, but have a set view that they consistently push, sometimes with facts sprinkled in here and there. They care not for erudition only propagation. The 3rd cut is caring more about “the facts” than caring about the ramifications and effects of “the facts,” especially when it messes with one’s worldview. The 4th cut (and the group is getting very small) are those that understand that “facts” are not discrete objects like diamonds, rubies and other precious gems. Facts are like ice cubes. Facts are protean. Facts are relative. Facts are determined by the emotions, biases and intellect of the collector. Facts are collected to fit precut slots. If they don’t fit, we will work on them until they do. When we take facts out of their slots for use, we might not put it back into the “correct” slot, or we may alter it and put it into another slot. And so on.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  94. @Twinkie

    Oh she’s going to love being compared to a “deranged dog”. My preferred descriptor had been “filthy cur” but I like your alliteration. To describe canines, of course–never people!

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  95. @iffen

    What sort of white nationalism are we talking about as an existential threat? I wouldn’t claim to speak for him, but I don’t think someone like Jared Taylor wishes any non-whites any harm, and if he had his druthers he’d do whatever he could to accommodate non-whites in a separation.

    Even in the US, I believe his aspiration is to have a part of the country that is an ethnostate for whites, another one for blacks, and is okay with other parts of the country remaining as the US and Canada are now, open for settlement to everyone.

    Someone will surely correct me if I’m incorrect. This sort of thing could be inconvenient for someone like Twinkie, but it seems unfairly hyperbolic to describe it as an existential threat.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Twinkie
  96. iffen says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    it seems unfairly hyperbolic to describe it as an existential threat.

    Depends. I think of the threat as not just to immediate life and limb, but to my “rightful” place in this political entity. I know how I notice and respond to what I view as threats to the working class. It’s easy enough for me to tell Jews to not pay any attention to those foaming at the mouth anti-Semites, or to tell non-whites to not pay any attention to those white [insert preferred noun here] because they will never gain traction, but I don’t know how I would feel if I wasn’t white. At the same time, it is easy enough for me to see how the identitarians, including those that choose random violence, could interpret the political and social environment as an existential threat.

    As you point out in your Failing Media post, there is no attempt to examine the issues that the El Paso shooter named as his motivation. There is a huge industry devoted to trying to understand and explain why blacks resort to violence and behavior outside of the political process. Where is the industry devoted to understanding the white resentment and violence?

    (If Trump is re-elected can we conclude that the MSM has had a spectacular failure?)

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Dissident
  97. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Not our Rosie. 😉 The hypothetical old woman who physically attacks me.

  98. Twinkie says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    an ethnostate for whites

    What’s wrong with Vermont?

    Of course, Mr. Taylor seems to like his white-Asian (with a dollop of Hispanic) zip code just fine.

  99. Dissident says:
    @iffen

    Excellent comments from both iffen and “d for doom”. “Doom” in #93 and iffen in #94 both really nail it.

    It’s easy enough for me to tell Jews to not pay any attention to those foaming at the mouth anti-Semites,

    My response to those who dismiss Jewish fears as mere paranoia is to wonder: Up until at least 1933, wouldn’t people have said the same with regard to the situation in Germany? (And, in fact, weren’t at least the earliest accounts of Nazi atrocities met with incredulity?) Were Jews less comfortable or influential in Weimar Germany than we are in present-day America?

    Also, of those who dismiss Jewish fears as paranoia, how many also blame Jews for just about everything?

    (An inverse phenomenon would appear to be evidenced in the typical reaction we see to claims of Jewish privilege or, in many cases, even the mere mention of the fact of Jewish over-representation in key areas of power, influence and wealth. I elaborated upon this somewhat here)

    but I don’t know how I would feel if I wasn’t white.

    Apropos, at least somewhat:
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-manhunt-intensifies/#comment-3408779

    Note that I do not endorse hysterical or draconian reactions to such adolescent antics.

    Where is the industry devoted to understanding the white resentment and violence?

    You were asking rhetorically, I take it. Have the powers-that-be left much doubt but that they have little besides contempt and disdain for non-cosmopolitan Whites?

    @Audacious Epigone:
    How representative is Jared Taylor of White Nationalists?

    At least in so far as his having no problem with Jews, my impression is that Taylor is exceptional among WNs.
    ~ ~ ~
    From what I’ve seen of Rosie’s comments, I think she often makes valid points concerning deplorable attitudes toward women that would appear all-too-common. How many male Unz posters decry sexual promiscuity in women and even in general, while themselves viewing women as little more than expendable, to be discarded as soon as their value in providing sexual gratification has expired? (Pump and dump, as I have seen Rosie put it.) There would appear to be enough such men to warrant adding this example of hypocrisy to d for doom’s list.

  100. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    There is a theory that all political beliefs are in fact religious beliefs. Our political beliefs reflect our underlying beliefs about The Way God Meant Things To Be. In this case I’m not necessarily referring to people who believe in a personal God like the Christian God but also to people who hold vague pantheistic or similar beliefs, beliefs that there’s some underlying moral order to the universe. I suspect that most people, even those who consider themselves to be atheists, do have some such beliefs even if they’re not consciously aware of it.

    We either believe that there’s a Way God Meant Things To Be, or that there’s a way that things are meant to be that is in tune with the Natural Order of Things, or is in tune with some vague intelligence that controls the universe. These beliefs may simply reflect our own personalities as formed by genetics or culture or upbringing. These underlying religious or quasi-religious beliefs then form our political beliefs.

    People who believe in free markets do so not because they have a profound understanding of economic systems but because they think that free markets are virtuous and are in accord with The Way God (or the Natural Order) Meant Things To Be. People who believe in socialism do so not because they have a deep understanding of economics but because they think that socialism is virtuous and is in accord with The Way God (or the Natural Order) Meant Things To Be. People who believe in democracy do so for the same reasons. The same applies to people who believe in Open Borders, or Social Justice.

    We hold certain political views because they are satisfying to us in both an emotional and a religious manner.

    Which is why it’s just about impossible to change people’s political views by arguing with them. There are no political debates. There are merely individuals and groups proselytising for their own essentially religious beliefs.

    • Replies: @iffen
  101. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Dissident

    Have the powers-that-be left much doubt but that they have little besides contempt and disdain for non-cosmopolitan Whites?

    I think you’ve just coined a new abbreviation – NCWs (non-cosmopolitan whites)!

    How many male Unz posters decry sexual promiscuity in women and even in general, while themselves viewing women as little more than expendable, to be discarded as soon as their value in providing sexual gratification has expired? (Pump and dump, as I have seen Rosie put it.) There would appear to be enough such men to warrant adding this example of hypocrisy to d for doom’s list.

    It’s a valid addition to the Hypocrisy List. Sexual immorality is harmful to both sexes.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  102. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    Which is why it’s just about impossible to change people’s political views by arguing with them. There are no political debates.

    Yes, but arguments can be made that policy x is ineffective (or even harmful) and we should pursue policy y instead. To give an example from the US, oppose AFDC and support the EITC instead.

  103. iffen says:
    @Dissident

    Also, of those who dismiss Jewish fears as paranoia, how many also blame Jews for just about everything?

    Accusations of disloyalty to “the nation” are certainly not new and are a direct continuation of earlier anti-Semitism. The existence of the State of Israel seems to be an additional nail upon which to hang the disloyalty argument. You may be able to answer a question for me. Has AIPAC ever publicly denounced an Israeli government policy or action as they did with the rejection of the Tlaib and Omar visit?

    You were asking rhetorically, I take it.

    Yes and no, I was also trying to express an understanding of the WN perspective. When I “got semi-woke” on race in the late 60’s, it seemed to be enough to not be racist and not support racism. Now a person is considered a racist if they don’t support (actively and publically) a black-centric agenda and point of view.

    even the mere mention of the fact of Jewish over-representation in key areas of power, influence and wealth.

    slippery slope, give them and inch … and so on

  104. iffen says:
    @Dissident

    To such Jews I say, as a Jew myself, enough already!

    I’ve been reading some of Michelle Goldberg’s tizzy fits over Trump, Israel, Jews and Evangelicals. Does she not realize that it is a little late in the day to be losing control over the Gentiles doing cultural appropriation on Jews and Judaism?

  105. lavoisier says: • Website
    @Talha

    Wonderful quote and describes our current time.

  106. @Dissident

    Wrt Jews, what is so hard for me to make sense of is why they wouldn’t have essentially wanted to freeze the demographics of America during the Reagan years. The ascendancy of the ‘religious right’ was great for Jews both in America and for Israel.

    Evangelical middle American whites are the most pro-Jewish and pro-Zionist demographic in the US. The immigrants the US has taken in since the 1986 amnesty have been much more hostile towards Jews and Israel than the native-born American population is.

    • Replies: @iffen
  107. @Dissident

    Re: white nationalism, Jared Taylor is the only white nationalist I’m familiar with beyond the level of superficial awareness so I can’t answer that with much confidence, but you’re probably right regarding his attitude towards Ashkenazi Jews. White Protestants, white Catholics, white Jews, white atheists–I think he feels the same about them all.

  108. @dfordoom

    NCW is at least as useful as WCW, and probably does a better job getting to the heart of the disdain. There is of course a lot of overlap but they’re not synonymous.

  109. iffen says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    what is so hard for me to make sense

    It is only hard to make sense if you assume that Jews would be exclusively concerned with “support” for Jews and Israel and give consideration to no other concerns. Don’t forget that these are the wokist people that have ever lived, and they, like most of the woke, really believe what they spout. Throwing in with the Evangelicals would be like throwing in with the devil in exchange for one little bauble. They really believe that it’s going to be kumbaya with all the new immigrants. There were many Zionists in the early years that believed that they would eventually be sitting around the campfire with the Palestinians, even after there had been extensive violence. There are even many Zionists today who believe that together they can make the desert bloom, if only the Palestinians would play their part.

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