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Ranking Homophobia by Country
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From the latest wave of the World Values Survey covering the years 2017-2020, the percentages of people, by country, who do not want “homosexuals” as neighbors:

Country %NoGay
1) Burma 91.3
2) Zimbabwe 89.1
3) Nigeria 89.0
4) Azerbaijan 85.8
5) Egypt 84.0
6) Armenia 82.4
7) Bangladesh 77.3
8) Vietnam 76.1
9) Turkey 75.8
10) Albania 75.7
11) Indonesia 74.3
12) Kyrgyzstan 73.3
13) China 70.8
14) Ethiopia 69.1
15) Montenegro 68.9
16) Belarus 66.6
17) Russia 66.1
18) North Macedonia 63.3
19) Georgia 61.7
20) Jordan 60.4
20) Malaysia 60.4
22) Bulgaria 59.6
23) Japan 58.2
23) Lithuania 58.2
25) Iraq 55.1
26) Tunisia 54.9
27) Romania 53.7
28) Bosnia and Herzegovina 52.5
29) Serbia 51.7
30) Italy 47.7
30) Lebanon 47.7
32) Kazakhstan 42.4
32) Macau 42.4
34) Taiwan 41.6
35) Pakistan 41.2
36) Guatemala 40.1
37) Cyprus 39.0
38) Slovakia 37.4
39) Hungary 36.8
40) Thailand 35.7
41) Estonia 35.6
42) Croatia 35.4
43) Peru 35.0
44) Greece 33.3
45) Nicaragua 33.2
46) Ecuador 31.5
47) Slovenia 29.2
48) Colombia 28.1
49) Poland 27.9
50) Chile 27.7
51) Bolivia 25.3
52) Hong Kong 23.9
53) South Korea 22.7
53) Mexico 22.7
55) Czech Republic 19.8
56) Philippines 17.8
57) Spain 12.7
57) United States 12.7
59) Puerto Rico 12.5
60) Finland 12.3
61) Australia 11.8
62) Austria 10.6
63) Argentina 8.6
64) France 7.9
65) New Zealand 7.6
66) Germany 7.1
67) Brazil 6.8
68) Switzerland 6.1
69) United Kingdom 5.3
70) Andorra 5.2
71) Netherlands 3.6
72) Norway 3.5
73) Sweden 2.4
74) Denmark 2.2
75) Iceland 1.9

There isn’t much surprising in the rankings. To the extent that the West criticizes the rest of the world for being anti-gay, it’s primarily Islamic countries from the right and Russia from the left, but sub-Saharan Africa is the most ‘homophobic’ region on the planet.

Those of Northwestern European descent are the globe’s most accepting of homosexuals. Scandanavians are the gayest towards gays of all. Rainier Wolfcastle is a relic:

WVS variables used: Q22

Parenthetically, the post title is admittedly suboptimal. The desire for distance does not necessarily denote fear, hatred, or any other negative emotion. But over the years we’ve learned a thing or two about SEO and given the obstacles UR faces in that regard, it’s a compromise we’re willing to make!

 
• Category: Culture/Society, Foreign Policy • Tags: Homosexuality, WVS 
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  1. anonymous[291] • Disclaimer says:

    Baltic people are quite homophobic. And Estonians are honorary NW Europeans.

  2. Thank you so much for that last paragraph. I agree completely that there’s no phobia against homos, but disgust, maybe, or just fatigue.

    If you hadn’t have written and explained the SEO aspect, that was going to be my comment. Even ‘the “homo” part is kind of confusing. Imagine if you were just learning English and had to translate “homophobia” literally – “scared of the same”?

    • Agree: Curmudgeon, zimriel
  3. What’s the deal with Myanmar? I’ve been there, and they don’t seem a very conservative society. Considering it’s next door to Thailand with its “ladyboy” culture and nearby Cambodia, which has gay tourism, it’s a mystery.

    I wonder if all ethnic groups in Myanmar are polled equally well. I doubt it. Hmmm…

  4. @Chrisnonymous

    What’s the deal with Myanmar?

    What’s the deal with Myanmar? The deal is that that ugly-sounding conglomeration of letters does not work for me. It’s Burma, and it will always be Burma, unless the Ceylonese invade or something …

    • Agree: Gordo
    • Replies: @Svevlad
  5. Twinkie says:

    Hilarious that Taiwan supposedly has (very slightly) higher intolerance than Pakistan, yet has legalized “gay marriage.”

    I guess this survey doesn’t capture what the respondents would do to a homosexual neighbor they dislike. For some reason, I think the Pakistani and Taiwanese numbers would be as close in that survey.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
    , @nebulafox
  6. Twinkie says:
    @Chrisnonymous

    What’s the deal with Myanmar?

    They are too honest and, not being highly Westernized, do not know how to answer such value surveys “correctly”?

    • Agree: dfordoom, Talha
  7. I think the recent dramatic shift in opinion in the West is due to people coming around to understand that sexual orientation is – as an accurate approximation – innate, and not as with personality a quality malleable by culture. Overwhelmingly, people can find some confirmation of this view in reference to their own nature. So if the only effect of liberalized laws and culture is that gays gain some ease and dignity in living an authentic life then there is no reason to hold to an ancient fear of “corruption of the youth”.

  8. @Chrisnonymous

    I know nothing about Burma; but at 47.7 percent, I wonder why Italy breaks from other western Europeans, such as France at 7.9 percent or Spain at 12.7.

    This neighbor-tolerance survey is interesting. I don’t know about you, but I go to considerable lengths to ensure good relations with neighbors that, were they not neighbors, I might find odd or unpleasant. Why? Because they’re neighbors. One has to live next to them, so one might as well get along.

    Most of my neighbors do likewise. In fact, as far as I know, all of them do.

    Are respondents mainly saying that broad tolerance of neighbors is just a necessity of life? It’s hard to tell.

    I’m with the 47.7 percent of Italians regarding the homosexuals, though. Male homos on average seem too dangerous if you have kids.

    • Replies: @Dumbo
    , @Almost Missouri
  9. Dumbo says:
    @John Achterhof

    Nah. If that were the case, they would also accept that things such as race or intelligence are also innate. It’s really just to stick it to “heteronormativity”.

    So if the only effect of liberalized laws and culture is that gays gain some ease and dignity in living an authentic life then there is no reason to hold to an ancient fear of “corruption of the youth”.

    In what planet are you living? Google “transgender children” and “sexual abuse of minors”, maybe your mind will clear.

  10. Dumbo says:

    Azerbaijan and Armenia seem to be pretty close (and both negative) on the issue, so maybe that’s why Globo Homo has been having difficulties to pick a side in the current war (or whatever is going on over there).

  11. Let’s not confuse homomisia with homophobia. I doubt many in sub-Saharan Africa are afraid of gays.

  12. Dumbo says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    at 47.7 percent, I wonder why Italy breaks from other western Europeans, such as France at 7.9 percent or Spain at 12.7.

    Traditionally, Italians don’t like fags (ricchioni, finocchi, ecc). Nevertheless, they had quite a bunch of famous and talented homosexuals, especially in the arts (Pasolini, Visconti, a few of the Renaissance painters). I don’t know why the big difference with Spain, that has a somewhat similar culture (or maybe the Spanish today are more atheist, and the Italians retain more of their Catholicism).

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  13. Is it possible to restrict responses to parents of underage boys?

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  14. @V. K. Ovelund

    I wonder why Italy breaks from other western Europeans

    Not to explain, but to illustrate.

    • LOL: Achmed E. Newman
  15. dfordoom says: • Website

    So, first up, what exactly is the response rate to surveys like this?

    Secondly in countries like the US or Britain how much chance do you think there is that people will give honest answers? My guess is, no chance at all.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  16. songbird says:

    Interesting to see numbers so high in Japan. Very urbanized and gays seem to enter into a lot of the media there. Though seemingly not in as an obsessive or objectionable a way. I used to have this theory that Japan’s school uniforms (skirt for girls, generally, and well-represented in media), helped make it a more traditional society in some ways. But, I don’t know, they are dropping the requirement that girls wear a skirt in some places and there seems to be some infiltration of trans ideology.

  17. songbird says:

    Speaking from personal experience, from many years ago, I dislike how gays often fly the rainbow flag, or blast music to advertise their presence. I believe they suffer from more mental health issues, also.

    Since Andorra appears in the lists above, I will take this opportunity to refer back to the race of neighbor survey, where it had a similar low percentage result. I’m calling BS on that. Andorra is a very small country, hedged in tightly by mountains, that can become difficult to pass in winter. When travel-writer Richard Halliburton (appropriately a gay) visited in the 1920s (see The Royal Road to Romance), he was surprised to be shown right into the president’s house, and be offered slippers by the fire, from the man himself. In a country like that, you are screwed if blacks move next door – no room to white flight, especially at the rate they are arriving these days.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  18. Svevlad says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    It’s the idiotic transcription most Asian languages have. A more accurate name would be Myama

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  19. dfordoom says: • Website
    @John Achterhof

    I think the recent dramatic shift in opinion in the West is due to people coming around to understand that sexual orientation is – as an accurate approximation – innate, and not as with personality a quality malleable by culture.

    That’s merely an assertion. Pretty much everything about human behaviour is malleable by culture. Including sexual preferences.

    • Agree: Dissident
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  20. @Svevlad

    Thanks, Svevlad. Even so, are you telling me that if I need shaving cream I’ve got to go find some Myama-Shave now? Screw it, I’ll just buy the cheapo brand at Target.

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
  21. @dfordoom

    So, if you grow up around a lot of sheep, DforDoom, as you just might happen to, downunder where you live, you preferences will be … different? Ewe!!!

    • Replies: @Talha
  22. @Dumbo

    What a ridiculous thing to say; traditionally, Italians are fags.

    More homophobia: gayer the culture. Homophobia is a coping mechanism.

  23. Talha says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Ewe!!!

    I see what you did there…

    Peace.

  24. @John Achterhof

    I think the recent dramatic shift in opinion in the West is due to people coming around to understand that sexual orientation is – as an accurate approximation – innate, and not as with personality a quality malleable by culture.

    No, it is not innate; it is a product of competition for the attentions of the opposite sex, which, when not obtained, results in channeling of interests in other directions. The West is in sexual a doom loop; as the male side continues to feminise, the females have less interest in most of the males, leaving them to bond with other males or become incels or gamers. Correspondingly, females need to seek out other females with more manly traits. Gayness as most know it is anything but innate for most who practise it.

  25. @Twinkie

    The people of Taiwan voted to NOT teach gay marriage in schools… The following year the DPP pushed gay marriage through the legislature. Taiwan people – like Hong Kong – have been “westernized liberalized” – but not that much. It was forced on them (gay marriage).

  26. @John Achterhof

    Penis was made for a vagina and not other parts. Some people have desires for other things that we are not made to do either. They inevitably bring consequences. Male on male has a higher degree of STD transmission for a reason. Political correctness and “dignity” can’t change that.

  27. nebulafox says:
    @Chrisnonymous

    Contrary to public image, Thailand is a rather conservative, religious society once you get away from the meat markets in Bangkok and Pattaya. Most Thai men are expected to do a brief stint as monks when young. I suspect Myanmar resembles what Thailand would be like without the massive degree of Westernization/economic growth caused in part by American investment and contact.

    As far as Cambodia goes, it is a deeply sad little country whose nationals have to do whatever it takes to survive. Western homosexuals are far from the only people who take advantage of that.

  28. nebulafox says:
    @Twinkie

    I think there’s a major difference between “I don’t want homosexual kids or gay pride parades” and “homosexuals should die” that this survey doesn’t unconver.

    • Agree: ariel, dfordoom, Talha
  29. Charlotte says:
    @John Achterhof

    That parallels my own past thinking on the subject. Yet, after seeing how deviant sexuality has been weaponized against normal sexuality, normal family structure, religious belief, even our understanding of human biology, I’m more onboard with the “ancient fear of “corruption of the youth”” these days. The ancients understood something my generation didn’t, apparently.

    • Replies: @John Achterhof
    , @Wency
  30. @dfordoom

    So, first up, what exactly is the response rate to surveys like this?

    Secondly in countries like the US or Britain how much chance do you think there is that people will give honest answers? My guess is, no chance at all.

    Your guess seems about right.

  31. @songbird

    Speaking from personal experience, from many years ago, I dislike how gays often fly the rainbow flag, or blast music to advertise their presence. I believe they suffer from more mental health issues, also.

    Gays as such are one of the few demographics that lack significant redeeming qualities. Many individual gays are unobjectionable, of course; but making a thing gayer practically always makes it worse.

    We went wrong when we lifted from gays the burden of being discreet.

    Now that burden perversely rests on the shoulders of normal people.

    • Agree: MBlanc46
    • Replies: @songbird
    , @dfordoom
  32. Like the other poll, this is measuring the extent that the ruling class of a given country has made it clear there is a right answer and a wrong answer to the question

  33. @Charlotte

    Yeah, no doubt there’s a core community that thinks of the insane stuff going on now (even if the numbers are small) with gender fluidity theory and early start on transition for middle-school kids as a furthering of their fight for liberation, but to those thinking rationally about it – including I’m sure some gays – the issues are separate. The first pertains to consenting adults, the latest concerns options made too early to kids (as I understand it). And in any case if it is thought a slippery slope, sometimes the most sensible or agreeable area to settle upon – such as with abortion – is somewhere along the slippery slope.

  34. Jiminy says:

    Some of the figures are strange. Especially when you remember that there are males that partake in a bit of manonman, even with minors, and think nothing of it. Areas such as Pakistan and Afghanistan come to mind.As if it is a necessary part of their culture. But it’s not surprising that the acceptance in western societies is high when you consider how much is spent to ensure that positive acceptance.

  35. MBlanc46 says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Try making up little poems about Myama-Shave. Post them on roadside signs.

  36. songbird says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    but making a thing gayer practically always makes it worse.

    Some like gays because they are the shock troops of gentrification.

    Gays can move into a black, urban neighborhood that once was white, and they’ll do so because they like cities. They have no kids to worry about, or to pay private school tuitions for. No wives to worry about either, and they have a lot of disposable income to drive up the cost of housing. Of course, none of that helps middle class people, who are likely to bear the damage from blacks moving elsewhere.

    BTW, I wonder how much the US number is related to blacks.

    All told, I think gays congregating together generally damages a place, making it difficult for families to live there, and they don’t always pick urban places, see Provincetown, MA, for example.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @Talha
  37. Talha says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I was surprised by the results too. But, yes – I have been hearing if trends in this direction; this stuff, feminism, etc. especially among the elites and their kids.

    However, there is something I know about the culture that would perhaps make more sense of it. In a place like Pakistan, if you have a person who is homosexual, the vast majority are not flamboyant or in your face about it. You may have a guy living next to you that is single and seems a bit on the effeminate side, but you’re not going to see him running a train of men through his house or be kissing some guy in front of you that he is just passing off as a roommate. When these kinds of things occur, people generally don’t care much and just get along because he is not making it a public matter. In fact, sins that someone commits privately, we are encouraged to keep them concealed for the person and not expose them. There are hadith that mention that those who conceal these kinds of private sins, then Allah will conceal their sins on the Day of Judgement. Likewise, those who expose the sins of others, Allah will expose their sins on that day.

    This is just speculation however on my part based on some cultural knowledge. Without knowing more details regarding how the question was asked and how it was interpreted, I cannot say with much certainty.

    I also personally wouldn’t mind a homosexual neighbor that was discreet and not flamboyant about it.

    It may just be that the youth are getting increasingly influenced by things over the internet; Netflix, movies, etc.

    Peace.

  38. @John Achterhof

    I think the recent dramatic shift in opinion in the West is due to people coming around to understand that sexual orientation is – as an accurate approximation – innate…

    In other words, white people have been losing their grip on reality for some time. Blindness is innate in some individuals, too, but we don’t celebrate that. (Yet.)

  39. dfordoom says: • Website
    @V. K. Ovelund

    We went wrong when we lifted from gays the burden of being discreet.

    Oddly enough I’ve met some male homosexuals who agree. They think it was better when they had their own discreet homosexual subculture. As long as they were discreet they were left alone. And many of them actually enjoyed having that secretive subculture. I’ve even met lesbians who thought things were better when they had their own self-contained subculture.

    Sexually deviant subcultures are mostly not a problem if they’re small and discreet. Foot fetishists for example might seem seriously weird but they have never presented society with any problems. The average person is scarcely aware that such a thing exists. That suits society and it suits the foot fetishists.

    • Agree: Talha, Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @songbird
  40. songbird says:
    @dfordoom

    Foot fetishists for example might seem seriously weird but they have never presented society with any problems.

    Peter Frost had an interesting theory about foot fetishism: that it evolved because so little used to be on display, that men began looking at women’s feet to judge their health, as prospective mates, and somehow it was passed into the genes. I think there was an implication that it was truer in Northern climes than elsewhere.

    In regard to gays, I think we have to ask ourselves why the Soviets cracked down on them. I think the answer is that they correctly perceived them as being revolutionary.

    • Replies: @Wency
  41. Talha says:
    @songbird

    They have no kids to worry about, or to pay private school tuitions for.

    We are in negotiations with a gay couple for their house. We had no idea who they were or that they were gay. They moved into a neighborhood and took a charming old house and completely upgraded it and added a bunch of rooms. I have no clue why they would do something like this other than they have a bunch of money to throw around. Anyway, the house is worth significantly more than the other houses around it, but they are going to lose a few hundred thousand on their investment since no one in that area is willing to pay what they were initially asking. In fact, I felt bad for the guy so I told our realtor to go ahead and offer $10K more to them than our final offer as a gesture of good will.

    It’s a good bargain for my family of six and I can even move my widowed mother in. The basement even has a full kitchen and can house an entire other family.

    Again, I have no clue why two adults men would build all of this for themselves. And this is their second house, they’ve already moved out. My realtor said we could have held out for much more and they still would have come back to us.

    When I was in SoCal, the last house we rented was owned by a lesbian couple that lived across the street from us. They were nice ladies and loved our kids.

    But yeah, gay people (at a certain class level) have a ton of disposable income.

    Peace.

  42. Neuday says:
    @John Achterhof

    So if the only effect of liberalized laws and culture is that gays gain some ease and dignity in living an authentic life then there is no reason to hold to an ancient fear of “corruption of the youth”.

    How many male gays were molested when young? Same-sex attraction is a most unfortunate mental disorder, and while I don’t deny that some were born that way, many others adopt the behavior due to early molestation or because being gay has become chic after years of proselytizing by our (((enemies))) in the media. Those liberalized laws were the result of gays piggy-backing on the Civil Rights laws passed to assist Blacks. As for living “with dignity”, there is nothing at all dignified by man-on-man anal sex; it’s an disgusting abomination most people don’t want to countenance. Go to a Gay Pride parade and tell me about this desire for dignity.

    As for “corruption of youth”, there is clearly a pederast component to gays. Those gays that infiltrated the Catholic seminaries didn’t corrupt girls, nor did the gay men sue to lead Girl Scout troops. What percentage of gays were molested when young? It certainly seems to be not uncommon.

    I’m not saying that gays should be prosecuted for private sexual behavior, but I am saying they should have no further legal protection beyond that, and it should be widely accepted that it’s absolutely abnormal, destructive and most unfortunate mental disorder, and should not have private contact with minors, and homosexual molestation of a minor should be a capital offense.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  43. songbird says:
    @Talha

    Sometimes professional people get housing subsidies on top of large regular incomes – I guess it’s about luring people across the country or something, but, if you ask me, it seems like a really perverse incentive, in that many don’t have children. It’s like they are given an incentive to spend this money – so they do crazy things with it. Like, one case I know, a lady (no kids) bought a small house, put an extra story on it and spun it around. Today, doing something like that must cost a fortune. Seems like it just makes everything more expensive – housing, carpentry, and it’s for someone who doesn’t need the space.

    It is easy to see that one of the biggest social problems in the West is the cost of housing, which affects family formation. And it seems to be being corrupted at both ends. In European countries with state subsidized housing, it is being preferentially given to nonwhites (maybe, because they have more children?) Construction is a big part of the push for open borders. Nobody talks about how how there is inherently limited capacity in a country like Britain – that it’s a bad idea to develop all the farmland, or how open borders drives up rents.

    • Replies: @Talha
  44. Anonymous[185] • Disclaimer says:

    Latin America has generally a low score. Probably, because the white elites are very influenced by European values. Although Brazil has been somewhat permissive to homosexuality, long before the modern trends. Homosexual behavior was descriminalized in 1830. There is even an very ancient effeminate homosexual suculture, that came from the animistic Afro-Brazilian religions.

  45. Talha says:
    @songbird

    Sometimes professional people get housing subsidies on top of large regular incomes – I guess it’s about luring people across the country or something, but, if you ask me, it seems like a really perverse incentive, in that many don’t have children.

    Yikes – that sounds like a recipe for disaster in the long run for your society.

    It is easy to see that one of the biggest social problems in the West is the cost of housing, which affects family formation.

    Yup.

    Peace.

  46. @MBlanc46

    Those Burma-shave ones used to scare the crap out of me. That was because they were on the way up a steep high roller-coaster!

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
  47. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Neuday

    Same-sex attraction is a most unfortunate mental disorder, and while I don’t deny that some were born that way, many others adopt the behavior due to early molestation or because being gay has become chic after years of proselytizing by our (((enemies))) in the media.

    In some cases it may be something they’re born with, although that’s entirely unproven.

    Early molestation? Maybe.

    I think a great deal of it is cultural. Maybe half genetic predisposition and half cultural influences or problematic upbringing?

    One factor that is often overlooked is the extreme hyper-promiscuity of many homosexual men. If you want hundreds of sex partners a year there’s just no way you’re going to get that as a heterosexual. So maybe for some male homosexuals their homosexuality is the only way to satisfy their craving for enormous amounts of anonymous sex.

    Of course then you have to explain why anybody would want enormous amounts of anonymous sex. I suspect that one is cultural.

    BTW, the LGBT agenda might be a dangerous and destructive agenda but it’s not a Jewish conspiracy. It’s probably done more harm to Jews than to gentiles. The LGBT lobby is just one of the dangerous and destructive lobbies that make up the Coalition of the Fringes and those lobbies usually have very different and often conflicting objectives.

    • Replies: @Wency
  48. Wency says:
    @Charlotte

    Yeah, this is basically how I evolved. Though it wasn’t so much an evolution as an epihany: a switch flipped in my head the instant that I realized that not only was I compelled to say that Bruce Jenner was now a woman named Caitlyn Jenner (ugh, but OK), but I in fact was being ordered to believe that Caitlyn Jenner had ALWAYS been a woman.

    It’s so overtly Orwellian that it practically plagiarizes the man. Every fiber in my being revolts against it; in that moment, the destruction of Sodom and the prohibitions in Leviticus (under pain of death) made sense all at once.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  49. Wency says:
    @dfordoom

    RE: homosexual causation

    Not sure if you’ve been exposed to the Gay Germ theory of homosexuality, which Greg Cochran suggested, and which Jayman summarizes here:

    https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2014/02/26/greg-cochrans-gay-germ-hypothesis-an-exercise-in-the-power-of-germs/

    I’m not entirely convinced of the hypothesis per se (I don’t think we can fully accept it without more evidence than mere process of elimination), but it has convinced me that a large environmental factor is definitely at play, and that basically every other theory that’s been proposed has some big problems.

    One factor that is often overlooked is the extreme hyper-promiscuity of many homosexual men. If you want hundreds of sex partners a year there’s just no way you’re going to get that as a heterosexual.

    I think this is a reasonable explanation for male bisexuality. It’s not hard to see why a compulsion to put one’s penis anywhere it fits might be adaptive under certain circumstances. But it’s much harder to see why this should preclude pursuing women as well.

    The real challenge to explaining homosexuality is the lack of inclination to sexually pursue women, not the inclination to sexually pursue men or boys per se.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  50. Wency says:
    @Talha

    Far be it for me to praise homosexuality, but I think you’re on to something here that’s relevant to AE’s original post. In my experience, most people, even people who regard homosexuality as a sin (relatively numerous still in my circles), would agree that gay men usually make good neighbors, in the sense that they tend to be fastidious in the maintenance of their homes and yards. They usually don’t have kids, which in some ways is a negative, but importantly means they don’t have teenagers.

    Aligning with Songbird though, this is probably only true so long as they’re a minority in an area. No one wants to live in a gay neighborhood (though this is somewhat true of most neighborhoods with a subculture of which you’re not a part — even a Korean neighborhood). Also, perhaps a factor in places I’ve lived (i.e., the US South) is that gays still feel some need to be exceptionally good neighbors, because they still fear (rightly or wrongly) that things could get nasty for them if the community ever turned against them.

    My mother lives in a retirement community of mostly conservative Southerners who would agree homosexuality is gross and a sin. Yet there is a gay couple, and they are generally accepted into society because they are very nice to everyone, lots of fun at parties, and very good neighbors, never engaging in PDAs and never doing anything to provoke anyone.

    • Replies: @Talha
  51. Wency says:
    @songbird

    Per foot fetishism, rather than displays of health, I have to think it may be as simple as men being drawn to female displays of nudity for obvious reasons — it’s an indicator that opportunities for intercourse may be around the corner, so get ready. But standards of what qualifies as a noteworthy “display of nudity” seem to be highly malleable, both at a cultural and individual level. Historically, the standards would be quite a bit lower in Scandinavia than at the Equator, and men at the Equator couldn’t properly go around being aroused all the time, so there would have to be an evolved ability for this to adjust based on personal experience.

    As for the Soviets, I don’t disagree with their conclusions, but I also don’t think we should frame arguments around the idea that they were a model for rational policymaking. We might just as well guess that Stalin disapproved at a visceral level, and no one afterwards cared enough to change course on this particular issue, so inertia prevailed (as on so many other fronts in the latter-day USSR).

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @songbird
  52. @Wency

    Yeah, this is basically how I evolved. Though it wasn’t so much an evolution as an epihany: a switch flipped in my head the instant that I realized that not only was I compelled to say that Bruce Jenner was now a woman named Caitlyn Jenner (ugh, but OK), but I in fact was being ordered to believe that Caitlyn Jenner had ALWAYS been a woman.

    It’s so overtly Orwellian that it practically plagiarizes the man. Every fiber in my being revolts against it; in that moment, the destruction of Sodom and the prohibitions in Leviticus (under pain of death) made sense all at once.

    This comment made me jam the agree button so hard, it broke my thumb. I only wish that I had the wit to put it so well.

  53. Talha says:
    @Wency

    Well I can attest that they keep meticulously clean houses. The one we are trying to buy is amazingly well kept. There is no way I would have been able to pull off keeping a house in such excellent shape and avoiding wear and tear while raising four kids.

    And I agree with your line of thought, I generally don’t have much of a problem with those that aren’t trying to push their lifestyle in my face or celebrate it in front of my kids.

    The office manager at my job is gay and has a partner. We’ve always gotten along unite well and he is a clean cut guy that doesn’t make a big deal out of being gay. After the law changed to allow it, I heard conversations he would have with one or another person about his upcoming marriage. Because he knew I had already declined going to office parties wherever there is alcohol, he must have figured I follow the rules. He never brought up the marriage or wedding with me which avoided me having to politely decline. I appreciated that since I was fearing that conversation. I think he knows my religion doesn’t approve of his lifestyle (he’s Catholic by the way), but yet we get along just fine as coworkers.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  54. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Wency

    But standards of what qualifies as a noteworthy “display of nudity” seem to be highly malleable, both at a cultural and individual level.

    Yes. In fact ideas of what constitutes sexual attractiveness also seem to extraordinarily malleable. You only have to look at the immense changes in ideas of female beauty over the past century-and-a-quarter. In the 1890s the wildly exaggerated hourglass figure was what attracted men. By the 1920s the ideal of female sexual attractiveness was a slim boyish figure with small breasts. By the 1950s we were back to volulptous figures. It’s changed several times since then.

    And it’s the same with female ideas of male sexual attractiveness. In the 1940s women fantasised about sleeping with macho men like Errol Flynn and Clark Gable. Half a century later women were fantasising about Brad Pitt or Leonardo di Caprio (who in the 1940s would have repelled women).

    Sexuality in general appears to be incredibly malleable.

    There are also clothing fetishes (stilettos, stockings, leather gear, uniforms, even weird things like rubber clothing). I used to know a woman (although not in the biblical sense) with a major sexual fetish for sex with men wearing fireman uniforms. These are obvious entirely cultural sexual fetishes.

    • Replies: @Wency
  55. songbird says:
    @Wency

    It’s interesting to think about this idea of foot fetishism.

    Seems like it was once pretty common to walk around barefoot in parts of Europe, in order to preserve your shoes, if you had a pair. I guess that would mean that your feet would be pretty dirty and calloused, even if you were a woman. Would that be attractive? I don’t know.

    When my father was in the Boy Scouts, he actually knew a boy who was used to walking around barefoot (though presumably he had a pair of shoes.) He said that it was remarkable the things that he could walk on, without feeling any apparent discomfort.

    As for the Soviets, I don’t disagree with their conclusions, but I also don’t think we should frame arguments around the idea that they were a model for rational policymaking.

    It’s hard to argue with the fact that the Soviet Union fell apart. Though, I have a certain respect for their cultural censorship efforts, even though they were widely mocked. This might be just a misimpression, but it almost seems to me like Russia still has a stronger folk music tradition today – perhaps, because of their earlier censorship of rock. And I think they were right about sexual content too.

  56. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Wency

    I think this is a reasonable explanation for male bisexuality. It’s not hard to see why a compulsion to put one’s penis anywhere it fits might be adaptive under certain circumstances. But it’s much harder to see why this should preclude pursuing women as well.

    A good point. But then if you want anonymous sex with several hundred partners a year women are going to keep well clear of you. You’ll quickly find out that you are only going to get what you want from men.

    It’s also possible that such men want anonymous sex with multiple partners because they are terrified of any emotional involvement whatsoever. So again, women will avoid such men.

    A woman might be happy to have a promiscuous male homosexual do her hair but she’s not likely to be interested in being one of his 347 annual sex partners.

    Lesbians are a whole different matter. I don’t think there’s any similarity at all between male homosexuality and lesbianism. I used to work at a job which for some reason attracted huge numbers of lesbians. All of them were sexually attracted to men. Their attraction to women seemed to be based on a need for emotional dramas.

    • Replies: @Wency
  57. Wency says:
    @dfordoom

    Female sexual attraction is much more malleable than male, because it’s wrapped up in status. Women will in fact like a man because other women like him. If they see a beautiful woman with an ugly man, they assume the man has something going for him. If they see an ugly woman with a handsome man, they assume the man must have something wrong with him.

    Men, on the other hand, will regard beauty as beauty and ugly as ugly, regardless of the man beside her.

    I don’t think the fireman thing is even a fetish, I think it’s just a status association. Fetishes are mostly a male thing. Men are weirder (i.e., more variable) than women, and far more prone to perversion of every sort.

    As for men’s tastes, a lot of the variation in women’s depiction is driven by women, gay men, and various weirdos who otherwise end up in the fashion and advertising industries. I don’t think the common man’s depiction of what’s sexy in a woman changes that much. The Venus de Milo’s body will always be regarded as attractive by the large majority of men, in any time or place.

    There is some variation in tastes among men, but I think it’s more like one man’s 10 is another man’s 7. Only a fringe of fetishists and freaks vary beyond that range. This variation is probably a combination of biological and cultural factors.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  58. Wency says:
    @dfordoom

    A good point. But then if you want anonymous sex with several hundred partners a year women are going to keep well clear of you. You’ll quickly find out that you are only going to get what you want from men.

    It’s also possible that such men want anonymous sex with multiple partners because they are terrified of any emotional involvement whatsoever. So again, women will avoid such men.

    I see your point. There does seem to be a certain sort of self-identified “gay man” who falls in this category, and it might even be a majority of 21st century gay men. Call it the “sour grapes gay”. He would happily have sex with women, if he could, but he can’t, so he doesn’t, and at some point he starts to act like he wouldn’t care to have sex with women, even if he could.

    Perhaps, in another time, it was easier for this type of man to have sex with women, as the gay sex was kept on the down low, and therefore his satyriasis led to enough reproductive success to pass this trait down.

    Still, I think there’s a type of gay man with no attraction to women whatsoever, and he may or may not be hypersexual. This is really the man that’s an evolutionary mystery.

    Lesbians are a whole different matter. I don’t think there’s any similarity at all between male homosexuality and lesbianism. I used to work at a job which for some reason attracted huge numbers of lesbians. All of them were sexually attracted to men. Their attraction to women seemed to be based on a need for emotional dramas.

    I agree with all of this. Though I have known lesbians that avoid relationships with men (at least for a time) as a response to abuse, rape, etc. And there is, again, probably a certain core with no attraction to men whatsoever, but it is much smaller than the core of gay men with no attraction to women.

  59. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Wency

    Female sexual attraction is much more malleable than male, because it’s wrapped up in status. Women will in fact like a man because other women like him.

    I think both male and female sexual attraction are highly malleable but I’d agree that it’s probably more malleable for women.

    You have to consider the possibility of a large degree of variability within the sexes. Maybe people who lack sexual confidence are more malleable in their sexual tastes. It might even be possible there’s a class factor, with middle-class people of both sexes being more prone to cultural influences (or possibly less prone). Are alphas more or less malleable in their taste than betas.

    Sexuality is extraordinarily complex and I don’t think we’re anywhere near to understanding it. I also think there may be a reluctance to do the necessary research – if you research the possibility that homosexuality is mostly cultural you can kiss your career goodbye. And any investigation of female sexuality is fraught with danger.

    I don’t think the fireman thing is even a fetish, I think it’s just a status association.

    The woman was wealthy and middle-class. She had a number of kinks.

    Fetishes are mostly a male thing. Men are weirder (i.e., more variable) than women, and far more prone to perversion of every sort.

    Mostly I think that’s true. But I think the ways in which that variability manifests may be mostly culturally conditioned.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  60. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Wency

    He would happily have sex with women, if he could, but he can’t, so he doesn’t, and at some point he starts to act like he wouldn’t care to have sex with women, even if he could.

    Perhaps, in another time, it was easier for this type of man to have sex with women, as the gay sex was kept on the down low, and therefore his satyriasis led to enough reproductive success to pass this trait down.

    And in other historical eras it was socially acceptable for such men to satisfy their craving for anonymous sex and multiple partners with prostitutes. There were major changes in attitudes towards prostitution in the late 19th century, for which we can thank (or blame) both progressive and Christian social reformers. Prostitution went from being something that was more or less taken for granted as a fact of life to being seen as a social/moral evil that had to be fixed. The moral panic thing again.

    So maybe male homosexuality has become more common as prostitution has become less accepted.

    Though I have known lesbians that avoid relationships with men (at least for a time) as a response to abuse, rape, etc. And there is, again, probably a certain core with no attraction to men whatsoever, but it is much smaller than the core of gay men with no attraction to women.

    Yeah. I’ve even known lesbians who found sex with men to be much more enjoyable, but they wanted relationships with women.

  61. @Talha

    I think he knows my religion doesn’t approve of his lifestyle (he’s Catholic by the way)….

    His religion doesn’t approve, either.

  62. @Talha

    In fact, I felt bad for the guy so I told our realtor to go ahead and offer $10K more to them than our final offer as a gesture of good will.

    If they have multiple houses and all kinds of discretionary income to throw around, why do this? Do they need it more than your own children do?

    • Replies: @Talha
  63. @Wency

    Perhaps, in another time, it was easier for this type of man to have sex with women, as the gay sex was kept on the down low, and therefore his satyriasis led to enough reproductive success to pass this trait down.

    If homosexuality was significantly genetic, its normalization would be the beginning of its extinction (ie Oscar Wilde wouldn’t have kids today). I don’t think it’s significantly genetic, though.

  64. @dfordoom

    if you research the possibility that homosexuality is mostly cultural you can kiss your career goodbye

    And yet if you research the possibility of just about any other personality trait (intelligence, aggressiveness, openness, etc) being anything other than entirely cultural, you can also kiss your career goodbye.

  65. Talha says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    I genuinely feel bad for the amount of money this guy lost in the process. I hope to get rewarded for it in the next life.

    Also, there is a concept of barakah (this the concept of Divine blessings/bounty/generosity) which surrounds an act and bears fruit when people transact with mutual concern; so, for instance if we get that house, it will have more barakah in it if both parties are satisfied and feel that the other side came to the table honestly and in good faith rather than at each other’s throats and with a view to squeeze the other guy.

    Peace.

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