The Unz Review • An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersAudacious Epigone Blog
Homelessness by Race
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

In a previous discussion thread a question about the racial dimension of homelessness. Here are the US rates per 10,000 people by race as of 2019:

Men comprise 70% of the US homeless population.

As the tragic Pacific Islander figure suggests, Hawaii has the highest rate of homelessness in the country. At the risk of sounding flippant, if I had to be homeless somewhere, Hawaii is where I’d want to end up.

Not everyone who is homeless has to be. Years ago, the Derb mentioned the mnemonic CATO as an easy way to recall the rough distribution of reasons why the homeless are homeless.

Crazy (or more charitably, those suffering from mental illness) — 40%
Addicted (hard drug users who can’t or won’t kick the habit) — 30%
Tramps (ie those who prefer the vagrant lifestyle) — 20%
Out-of-luck (fallen on hard times) — 10%

If there was a realistic way to isolate the 20% it would be fascinating to learn where they prefer to be and why. Is there a man reading this who isn’t at least a little intrigued by the modern day Diogenes?

 
• Category: Culture/Society, Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Homelessness, Race 
Hide 62 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. anon[413] • Disclaimer says:

    Thanks. Most interesting. If asked, I would have put the percentage of men at 90% based on observation.

    There are men under the freeways who have various warrants out on them. With no ID and no address it’s pretty easy for them to not get arrested. Do they count as T or O?

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @anon

    Good question. Probably Ts since they presumably chose that life consciously.

  2. In the 1970s the public was assured that modern psychiatry could now successfully treat most mentally ill patients with drugs, and that these patients could be released into “the community”. That was “The Narrative”, and to criticize it was to be condemned as cruel.

    In the west-coast city where I grew up there used to be a network of dedicated healthcare institutions for the mentally ill. These facilities were located in what was then the far outer suburbs, or more accurately, rural areas very far from the city. Maybe that’s where the term “funny farm” came from.

    These institutions were built on a lot of land, and maybe originally some sort of small-scale “hobby farming” was used as a form of therapy. By the 1970s these land holdings were no longer in a rural area; they were extremely valuable suburban land that was now close to a rapidly growing city. All those institutions are gone now, and the land was sold off to property developers in the late 1970s.

    “The Narrative” and greed often overlap. I suspect that the bipartisan support in the 1970s that was ginned up in the media for “de-warehousing” the mentally ill is yet another example of this phenomenon.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @Voltarde


    These facilities were located in what was then the far outer suburbs, or more accurately, rural areas very far from the city.
     
    I actually have a relative who has suffered from a crippling mental illness for a few decades now. He is housed, funny enough, in a sort of halfway house (more accurately, an apartment building) in a tiny and dying rural Rustbelt town that is at least 2 hours from any major city. A single social worker covers all the patients in this apartment block, makes sure they're taking their anti-psychotic medications, staying out of trouble, and otherwise managing their lives well enough. They do some things together, but most of their time is their own.

    By my observations, this program is actually really good, but very few states have anything like it. It seems a lot cheaper than a traditional mental hospital, especially in the case of his program being located in such a remote and dying area. And it also seems like it offers a better quality of life, balancing independence with structure. You couldn't put a truly dangerous person there (nowadays those guys are the prison system's problem), but basically everyone in this program seems like someone who would end up homeless and unmedicated without constant intervention from family.
    , @Mr. Rational
    @Voltarde


    These institutions were built on a lot of land, and maybe originally some sort of small-scale “hobby farming” was used as a form of therapy. By the 1970s these land holdings were no longer in a rural area; they were extremely valuable suburban land that was now close to a rapidly growing city. All those institutions are gone now, and the land was sold off to property developers in the late 1970s.
     
    That is precisely what happened to the "funny farm" that my classmates and I used to joke about as I was growing up.  I actually got near it once; it was protected by walls and looked pretty nice.  I recall seeing a pumpjack in or near it.  After de-institutionalization of the crazies (which left most of them "homeless"), it became some kind of commercial development.
  3. Does alcohol count towards ‘addicted’?

    • Replies: @Trengi
    @angmoh

    of course, why would it not?

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @angmoh

    Yeah, I assume so.

  4. anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:

    The homeless population here in Chicago appears to fall into these categories:
    -Drug/alcohol addicted people
    -Mentally ill
    -Released ex-convicts with nowhere to go
    There’s no dividing line between them. Many hit two or all three categories. Mental issues might lead to self-medication with drugs or the drugs themselves create disordered thinking. Incarceration is part of the lifestyle with some being previous hardcore time servers for serious crimes, including sex offenders, to those who do frequent short sentences. Among the races blacks are most likely to be ex-cons. Not many Pacific Islanders or AI visible here. Totally unscientific eyeball survey shows very few female homeless, nowhere near 30% but closer to a tenth of that. Perhaps the women are more likely to utilize shelters more than men and so aren’t sleeping under viaducts as much. Because of the harsh winter few people here seem to fall into the Tramp only designation. Hawaii is different and has more of the willing Tramp category. Tramps make an effort to get to Hawaii because sleeping rough is doable there and food is readily available from different sources including government welfare.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @anonymous

    There is definitely a huge regional difference in the homeless within the US, from what I can tell.

    Broadly generalizing, in cities in roughly the Eastern half of the country, the homeless tend to be indigenous to the places they are currently homeless in, and originally real economic hardcases who then, because of their terrible circumstances, have developed problems with drugs and alcohol and mental problems. I would drink and do drugs too if I had to spend all day outdoors in Chicago in January, or was confined to Detroit or Camden in any month.

    However in Western cities like Seattle, Portland, SF, LA, Denver, Phoenix, and so on, the homeless seem to be aficionados of drugs and alcohol who were attracted to the lifestyle of no job and no responsibilities. They largely came to those places from elsewhere, attracted by the whole scene, and the permissive local attitude to trespassing, panhandling, public intoxication, drug transactions, and lately setting up camp anywhere they feel like.

    Then there are the largely "unseen" homeless who are outside of central cities, in suburbs and rural areas, living in cars and abandoned houses. They probably skew much more toward women with kids, and I don't know if they even get counted.

    Replies: @Wency

  5. @Voltarde
    In the 1970s the public was assured that modern psychiatry could now successfully treat most mentally ill patients with drugs, and that these patients could be released into "the community". That was "The Narrative", and to criticize it was to be condemned as cruel.

    In the west-coast city where I grew up there used to be a network of dedicated healthcare institutions for the mentally ill. These facilities were located in what was then the far outer suburbs, or more accurately, rural areas very far from the city. Maybe that's where the term "funny farm" came from.

    These institutions were built on a lot of land, and maybe originally some sort of small-scale "hobby farming" was used as a form of therapy. By the 1970s these land holdings were no longer in a rural area; they were extremely valuable suburban land that was now close to a rapidly growing city. All those institutions are gone now, and the land was sold off to property developers in the late 1970s.

    "The Narrative" and greed often overlap. I suspect that the bipartisan support in the 1970s that was ginned up in the media for "de-warehousing" the mentally ill is yet another example of this phenomenon.

    Replies: @Wency, @Mr. Rational

    These facilities were located in what was then the far outer suburbs, or more accurately, rural areas very far from the city.

    I actually have a relative who has suffered from a crippling mental illness for a few decades now. He is housed, funny enough, in a sort of halfway house (more accurately, an apartment building) in a tiny and dying rural Rustbelt town that is at least 2 hours from any major city. A single social worker covers all the patients in this apartment block, makes sure they’re taking their anti-psychotic medications, staying out of trouble, and otherwise managing their lives well enough. They do some things together, but most of their time is their own.

    By my observations, this program is actually really good, but very few states have anything like it. It seems a lot cheaper than a traditional mental hospital, especially in the case of his program being located in such a remote and dying area. And it also seems like it offers a better quality of life, balancing independence with structure. You couldn’t put a truly dangerous person there (nowadays those guys are the prison system’s problem), but basically everyone in this program seems like someone who would end up homeless and unmedicated without constant intervention from family.

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  6. You usually have more bars representing various other social variables. I realize political alignment wouldn’t mean much on this one, especially from the C’s, if you could even ask, but how about men vs. women? My first guess would be 90% to 10%.

    Speaking of that, and somewhat along with what commenter Anon #413 wrote, how many of homeless men are in that situation after having been screwed over royally during divorces. There are a number of reasons one may end up this way:

    1) The children are gone, or even if you are ALLOWED to see your own children, they are not being raised right, and there’s not a damn thing you can do about that. You don’t have the house you put all that work into to live in. There’s not quite so much to live a normal existence for.

    2) Once the family court lays down The State’s (ex-wife’s new husband) claims on your life, the best thing for many non-career-oriented guys (carpenters, electricians, yard guys, etc.) is often to get off the grid. I know particularly one guy like that who had rented a cabin from my friend. Everything was done in cash. No ID’s, no taxes, no BS. The problem is finding someone to rent to you, especially after existing a good while off anyone’s books or records. There’s something to be said for this way of doing things. It not only may take the pressure off, but it is a way to say “screw you” to the system too.

    I wonder whether the average age of that “T” group is quite a bit lower. For a young guy, it’s not the absolute worst thing – many have travelled the country or gone around Europe with backpacks sleeping outside or on the floor somewhere. This is not much different, as long as you have some hope for the future.

  7. anonymous[351] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous
    The homeless population here in Chicago appears to fall into these categories:
    -Drug/alcohol addicted people
    -Mentally ill
    -Released ex-convicts with nowhere to go
    There's no dividing line between them. Many hit two or all three categories. Mental issues might lead to self-medication with drugs or the drugs themselves create disordered thinking. Incarceration is part of the lifestyle with some being previous hardcore time servers for serious crimes, including sex offenders, to those who do frequent short sentences. Among the races blacks are most likely to be ex-cons. Not many Pacific Islanders or AI visible here. Totally unscientific eyeball survey shows very few female homeless, nowhere near 30% but closer to a tenth of that. Perhaps the women are more likely to utilize shelters more than men and so aren't sleeping under viaducts as much. Because of the harsh winter few people here seem to fall into the Tramp only designation. Hawaii is different and has more of the willing Tramp category. Tramps make an effort to get to Hawaii because sleeping rough is doable there and food is readily available from different sources including government welfare.

    Replies: @anonymous

    There is definitely a huge regional difference in the homeless within the US, from what I can tell.

    Broadly generalizing, in cities in roughly the Eastern half of the country, the homeless tend to be indigenous to the places they are currently homeless in, and originally real economic hardcases who then, because of their terrible circumstances, have developed problems with drugs and alcohol and mental problems. I would drink and do drugs too if I had to spend all day outdoors in Chicago in January, or was confined to Detroit or Camden in any month.

    However in Western cities like Seattle, Portland, SF, LA, Denver, Phoenix, and so on, the homeless seem to be aficionados of drugs and alcohol who were attracted to the lifestyle of no job and no responsibilities. They largely came to those places from elsewhere, attracted by the whole scene, and the permissive local attitude to trespassing, panhandling, public intoxication, drug transactions, and lately setting up camp anywhere they feel like.

    Then there are the largely “unseen” homeless who are outside of central cities, in suburbs and rural areas, living in cars and abandoned houses. They probably skew much more toward women with kids, and I don’t know if they even get counted.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @anonymous

    Your east vs. west assessment is valid, but this isn't:


    because of their terrible circumstances, have developed problems with drugs and alcohol and mental problems.
     
    I think your point about drug/alcohol problems coming after the homelessness is largely false, but I know it's especially false of mental illness among the homeless, with which we're really talking about schizophrenia and related disorders. Schizophrenia has a very large genetic component, and usually the most relevant environmental trigger is consumption of hallucinogens, not things like stress or hardship.

    As I observed upthread, I have a schizophrenic relative, and I can assure you that his upbringing was into a solid and loving middle class family. But he had a complete mental breakdown in his early 20s, would either be homeless, in prison, or dead if not for a combination of family intervention and the state-sponsored program he's in. Indeed, he spent a bit of time both homeless and in jail (for an insane and nonsensical act of property destruction) before his family stepped in.

    Most people aren't homeless, which means most people who develop schizophrenia have a home at the time it happens, and it's the mental illness that causes the homelessness. It takes a lot of thankless work to keep schizophrenics from becoming homeless, which I'm sure a very large number of families fail at. Something like 20% of the homeless population has severe mental illness, and the number is surely larger among the involuntarily homeless, and probably also among the white homeless.
  8. I have long fantasized about adopting a homeless vagrant lifestyle, but have so far lacked the courage.

    There is something very spiritually appealing about giving it all up and wandering. The closest I have come so far is lots of travelling, camping, and living simply.

    Perhaps one day I will muster the courage to be truly homeless, a wandering vagrant. I am heartened that there are bohemians and hobos doing this even today, people who have the courage.

    Alan Watts says somewhere there are tons of us who would want to become beach combers, but lack the courage.

    The Hindus had a beautiful practice of first having a family and job, then giving it all over to your oldest son in your final years and wandering the mountains alone, casting off your superficial social identity and becoming one with the Eternal. How beautiful!

    The Chinese had a similar practice, where a high official would cast off his duties in his later years and retreat to the mountains and live as a wandering hermit – a true Old Man Of The Mountains, they would call him.

    Why do we not have such possibilities today? All must work to increase wealth! But in every society before ours, there was always an outlet for people too profound to play the tedious social game, and people saw value in people who had the courage to opt out and connect with the Eternal.

    There is a huge surge in people taking to vanlife and the like,so that’s heartening too.

    • Replies: @Daniel Williams
    @AaronB


    There is a huge surge in people taking to vanlife and the like,so that’s heartening too.
     
    Less so for the people with the stranger’s piece-of-shit parked in front of their house: “Daddy, who are those people?”
    , @nokangaroos
    @AaronB

    Steinbeck, more than Thoreau, sang the praises of the Simple Life (tm) - in California.
    And he gave us the distinction "hobo"(migrant worker), "tramp"(dito but no intention to work) and "bum"(lowest rung, beyond repair).
    And everybody from Johann Georg Forster (blue-eyed perma-horny youth) to Gauguin (degenerate child-molesting lecher) liked Tahiti;
    be advised most tropical island paradises will not even let you in on a one-way ticket any longer, and the carrier usually takes responsibility for getting you off again.

    - In the Aryan´s more natural habitat, life is not simple.
    The nights in reeking subway restrooms, huddled together for warmth, sharing two-liter plastic bottles of rotgut wine, smoking "jailbird´s special" and doing existential philosophy distinctly lose in appeal when you really have nowhere else to go.

    The average homeless? White, male, over middle aged, divorced and heavy drinker
    (not always clear but I get the impression divorce often comes first). And I wouldn´t stand for everybody´s mental health.

    The druggies have their own subculture - usually squatting, antifa and large dogs as not potty trained and aggressive as their owners
    (and some obviously have well-to-do parents).

    Alaska, maybe ... ;)

  9. Forgive me, as I don’t do this O/T thing often.

    O/T: It was too late to reply to a reply comment of yours, as I just saw it yesterday, comments are closed, and well, most of a week in internet time is like a year used to be or something. Regarding the Capitol Gang soiree 3 weeks back:

    Hate to break it to you, but if Americans won’t even state their opinions in an anonymous poll, they’re never going to do anything in the real world to protect and promote their beliefs.

    We’re talking different numbers here. I didn’t say EVERYONE would be scared to state their opinions, but just a big percentage. Americans have become pretty spineless. The Lyin’ Press Infotainment is pretty blatantly barraging people with talk about the government “coming to get you” if you get out of line, and too many Americans believe they can “get” us all.

    It’s probably not breaking it to you, AE, as you are an intelligent guy, but it was only a small percentage of Americans that actively worked against the Crown of Great Britain in the mid-1970s. Some say it was a measly 3%. Those 3% may have answered honestly in the polls, but then again, maybe they are the ones who have a good reason not to.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I think the Bolsheviks did it with an even smaller population share.

  10. In the UK, as in the US, the huge and magnificent semi-rural asylums have gone, either demolished for housing or turned into luxury flats.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friern_Hospital

    Friern Hospital (formerly Colney Hatch Lunatic Asylum) was a psychiatric hospital in the parish of Friern Barnet close to a crossroads which had a hamlet known as Colney Hatch. In 1965, it became part of the London Borough of Barnet and in the early 21st century was converted to residential housing as Princess Park Manor and Friern Village.

    Residents of the development have included members of the boy band One Direction, pop stars and footballers.

    In the UK ex-military are a big chunk of the homeless, 16,000 people by some estimates. Mostly out of luck (divorce/separation a big factor) and drinkers. But some get into the life and prefer it to the straight world. Not many black homeless and almost no Asian, though Eastern European numbers are increasing.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5274955/Homeless-ex-soldier-died-slept-Edinburgh-streets.html

    ‘Ex-Royal Tank soldier Darren, who sat at the top of the Waverley Steps in Edinburgh, sadly died on December 17 after refusing help from Soldiers Off The Street, SSAFA and others.

    ‘We tried helping him but we think the streets were his only way of living and coping with life. Now he can rest in peace and fly with the angels.’

    Lt Colonel (Retd) Stephen May, from the Royal Tank Regiment, told MailOnline: ‘We’re very saddened by Darren’s loss.

    ‘We have been supporting him financially since 2000.’ ”

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  11. I have a little experience with this from a professional standpoint, and I would say mental illness/addiction (often both at the same time) gets you pretty much to 90% of the long term homeless population. What is astounding is how so many cities seem content to let most of this population live on the street and negatively impact the quality of life of everyone else.

    Last year I was visiting DC and paid a visit to the old neighborhood. My metro stop used to be pretty clean with only a neighborhood bum or two who would loiter in the area, whereas now there were several dozen homeless people camped out around the entrance under a bridge, and who had clearly been there a long time. My current city also has tolerated similar encampments around the city market and other urban amenities that normally are nice but have gotten so overrun that a female relative has to walk several blocks out of her way to run errands just to avoid braving a gauntlet of homeless people.

    I also wonder how so many have tents – is there some organization that distributes them for free?

    • Replies: @Catdog
    @Arclight

    DC is fancy compared to Baltimore. Even in the "nice" parts of the city, there are four panhandlers at each interesection- one for each branch. The highway onramps are large homeless camps. Anyone getting off the lightrail downtown is hit up for money. And again, even in the "nice" parts of town there are homeless casually sleeping on the sidewalks. Yes, you frequently have to step over/around them.

    The city started putting in new electronic parking meters a few months ago. They're already busted from homeless trying to get cash out of them... and urinating on the buttons.

    Why can't all these unsightly parasites be rounded up and taken to a remote farm somewhere?

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Arclight

    I agree with you, Archlight, and other commenters that the de-institutionalization of the mental patients is the biggest factor in the number of homeless people. I'm not saying it's for this reason, as this goes back to the 1980s or so, but many of these "funny farms" were on good pieces of real estate. I know one that has got to be a couple of hundred acres right near downtown. It's been a bonanza for real estate people, but not very good for society in general.

  12. @Arclight
    I have a little experience with this from a professional standpoint, and I would say mental illness/addiction (often both at the same time) gets you pretty much to 90% of the long term homeless population. What is astounding is how so many cities seem content to let most of this population live on the street and negatively impact the quality of life of everyone else.

    Last year I was visiting DC and paid a visit to the old neighborhood. My metro stop used to be pretty clean with only a neighborhood bum or two who would loiter in the area, whereas now there were several dozen homeless people camped out around the entrance under a bridge, and who had clearly been there a long time. My current city also has tolerated similar encampments around the city market and other urban amenities that normally are nice but have gotten so overrun that a female relative has to walk several blocks out of her way to run errands just to avoid braving a gauntlet of homeless people.

    I also wonder how so many have tents - is there some organization that distributes them for free?

    Replies: @Catdog, @Achmed E. Newman

    DC is fancy compared to Baltimore. Even in the “nice” parts of the city, there are four panhandlers at each interesection- one for each branch. The highway onramps are large homeless camps. Anyone getting off the lightrail downtown is hit up for money. And again, even in the “nice” parts of town there are homeless casually sleeping on the sidewalks. Yes, you frequently have to step over/around them.

    The city started putting in new electronic parking meters a few months ago. They’re already busted from homeless trying to get cash out of them… and urinating on the buttons.

    Why can’t all these unsightly parasites be rounded up and taken to a remote farm somewhere?

  13. We had a couple of homeless guys get befriended by a member of our congregation. Others in the congregation helped them find jobs and a place to stay. They hung in there for a few months, attended services and even sang in the choir.

    But after a while they grew bored with their situation and missed the “freedom of the open road” so they up and left. Sometimes when we house the homeless, they don’t want that and do a runner.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  14. @Voltarde
    In the 1970s the public was assured that modern psychiatry could now successfully treat most mentally ill patients with drugs, and that these patients could be released into "the community". That was "The Narrative", and to criticize it was to be condemned as cruel.

    In the west-coast city where I grew up there used to be a network of dedicated healthcare institutions for the mentally ill. These facilities were located in what was then the far outer suburbs, or more accurately, rural areas very far from the city. Maybe that's where the term "funny farm" came from.

    These institutions were built on a lot of land, and maybe originally some sort of small-scale "hobby farming" was used as a form of therapy. By the 1970s these land holdings were no longer in a rural area; they were extremely valuable suburban land that was now close to a rapidly growing city. All those institutions are gone now, and the land was sold off to property developers in the late 1970s.

    "The Narrative" and greed often overlap. I suspect that the bipartisan support in the 1970s that was ginned up in the media for "de-warehousing" the mentally ill is yet another example of this phenomenon.

    Replies: @Wency, @Mr. Rational

    These institutions were built on a lot of land, and maybe originally some sort of small-scale “hobby farming” was used as a form of therapy. By the 1970s these land holdings were no longer in a rural area; they were extremely valuable suburban land that was now close to a rapidly growing city. All those institutions are gone now, and the land was sold off to property developers in the late 1970s.

    That is precisely what happened to the “funny farm” that my classmates and I used to joke about as I was growing up.  I actually got near it once; it was protected by walls and looked pretty nice.  I recall seeing a pumpjack in or near it.  After de-institutionalization of the crazies (which left most of them “homeless”), it became some kind of commercial development.

  15. Looks like we are going to experience a tsunami of homelessness in the near future when the moratoriums on foreclosure and evictions on federally guaranteed mortgages expire ( currently set for March 31st)

    Don’t know what can be done to avert it not because the Democrats won’t be willing to throw whatever amount of money we don’t have at the problem but because it will be impossible to design a fair or legal remedy. Does the government assume the delinquent rent/mortgage payments for everyone in arrears due to the pandemic? Tom and Linda in a 4 bedroom three bath suburban home in Westchester might be $25,000 behind on their mortgage payments and still have two leased cars in their driveway while Harry and Diane are $5,000 behind on the rent for their crappy studio apartment in Newark and had their 5 year old Corolla repoed. I just don’t see how the Federal government can design a program to accommodate the complexities any federal bailout would entail without creating massive inequities especially with only two months to do it in.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @unit472

    “ Looks like we are going to experience a tsunami of homelessness in the near future when the moratoriums on foreclosure and evictions”

    Doubtful. Transfer programs have been gigantic, and data on overdue rent shows barely any increase.

    The rent and eviction moratoriums also have rules about delayed payback.

    Real estate prices are also up 9.4% over 12 months. That means a bank can safely capitalize or refi most non-performing mortgages.

    Credit card debt is also down. Just not much sign of high levels of economic stress.

    , @Mark G.
    @unit472

    They need to do something about the delinquent renters pretty soon. Landlords are going to start walking away from and abandoning their buildings. Once they do that, the buildings are not going to stay habitable for very long with no maintenance being done on them. In addition to apartment owners, you also have commercial enterprises like restaurants that haven't been paying rent. In New York city it's estimated a fourth of all restaurants will end up going out of business. Only 10% have been paying their full rent and the rest are all clamoring for federal help. It will be difficult for building owners to find replacements for the ones that go under.

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @unit472

    It's a huge open question as to how this is going to be resolved. So far, delinquency rates aren't much worse than last year. But then again April was the highest month for personal incomes in the history of the country--yes, April, when jobless claims were in the tens of millions--because of government transfers through the CARES Act and through enhanced unemployment benefits. January 2021 almost certainly broke that record. So people still have cash, but far fewer are actually earning it. The system wants to bring evictions back, but the populace--especially Democrat voters--don't. Not sure how it resolves.

  16. @Arclight
    I have a little experience with this from a professional standpoint, and I would say mental illness/addiction (often both at the same time) gets you pretty much to 90% of the long term homeless population. What is astounding is how so many cities seem content to let most of this population live on the street and negatively impact the quality of life of everyone else.

    Last year I was visiting DC and paid a visit to the old neighborhood. My metro stop used to be pretty clean with only a neighborhood bum or two who would loiter in the area, whereas now there were several dozen homeless people camped out around the entrance under a bridge, and who had clearly been there a long time. My current city also has tolerated similar encampments around the city market and other urban amenities that normally are nice but have gotten so overrun that a female relative has to walk several blocks out of her way to run errands just to avoid braving a gauntlet of homeless people.

    I also wonder how so many have tents - is there some organization that distributes them for free?

    Replies: @Catdog, @Achmed E. Newman

    I agree with you, Archlight, and other commenters that the de-institutionalization of the mental patients is the biggest factor in the number of homeless people. I’m not saying it’s for this reason, as this goes back to the 1980s or so, but many of these “funny farms” were on good pieces of real estate. I know one that has got to be a couple of hundred acres right near downtown. It’s been a bonanza for real estate people, but not very good for society in general.

    • Agree: Adam Smith, Mark G.
  17. In most of the Midwest the bums are about 90% black. Apartments rent for $250 a month in poor areas, and section 8 waiting lists aren’t long. So only extreme dysfunction results in homelessness. The white versions tend to end up in old trailers on relatives’ property, decaying $10,000 old houses left to them by an elderly relative, or in druggie flophouses.

    The West Coast has a lot of “gutter punks” and “travelers” who are about 90% young whites, and the non-whites are mostly assimilated to whites. They go in packs, tend to have access to an ancient trashy car or van, and lots of pets. There’s an overlap with antifa.

  18. @unit472
    Looks like we are going to experience a tsunami of homelessness in the near future when the moratoriums on foreclosure and evictions on federally guaranteed mortgages expire ( currently set for March 31st)

    Don't know what can be done to avert it not because the Democrats won't be willing to throw whatever amount of money we don't have at the problem but because it will be impossible to design a fair or legal remedy. Does the government assume the delinquent rent/mortgage payments for everyone in arrears due to the pandemic? Tom and Linda in a 4 bedroom three bath suburban home in Westchester might be $25,000 behind on their mortgage payments and still have two leased cars in their driveway while Harry and Diane are $5,000 behind on the rent for their crappy studio apartment in Newark and had their 5 year old Corolla repoed. I just don't see how the Federal government can design a program to accommodate the complexities any federal bailout would entail without creating massive inequities especially with only two months to do it in.

    Replies: @Lot, @Mark G., @Audacious Epigone

    “ Looks like we are going to experience a tsunami of homelessness in the near future when the moratoriums on foreclosure and evictions”

    Doubtful. Transfer programs have been gigantic, and data on overdue rent shows barely any increase.

    The rent and eviction moratoriums also have rules about delayed payback.

    Real estate prices are also up 9.4% over 12 months. That means a bank can safely capitalize or refi most non-performing mortgages.

    Credit card debt is also down. Just not much sign of high levels of economic stress.

  19. Men are more likely to be at the extremes of human nature, for better or for worse. Among the “worse” are mental illness and addiction.

    Re, escaping homelessness: I don’t want to come across as dismissive, but I sometimes feel like people who haven’t been long-term unemployed, without resources or social networks, don’t really appreciate how much of an uphill battle it can be to get out of that in a world where restaurants no kidding demand to see years of experience or have a connection for dishwashing jobs. That being said, if you want to help the homeless: help them get jobs, help get them off the street, give them social opportunities, and if they need them, medical treatment or counseling.

    What does not help the homeless is turning cities into open air camps. That’s just making a lot of other people’s lives worse while not helping the homeless. Like so much else that is wrong with modern American society, people want to appear to be doing something so badly that they don’t actually care about doing the job.

    • Agree: Not Only Wrathful
    • Replies: @unit472
    @nebulafox

    I agree taking someone who has fallen into the gutter and getting them back on their feet is a challenge. They have lost any structure in their lives and most often have become physically repulsive and lost any human dignity as well.

    Decades ago I was working with those 'Community Housing Corporations' that were acquiring and spending millions to renovate run down SRO hotels and tenement buildings in San Francisco to house the homeless. It just didn't work because these people need to be resocialized not given a private room they can trash.

    I suggested acquiring one of the mothballed troop ships from the reserve fleet across the bay and dock it at an unused Port of San Francisco pier. The raw , unsocialized homeless would be put aboard and live in barracks like settings. Up in the morning. Make beds, clean quarters, shower and shave, eat breakfast. Attend counseling sessions until lunch. More afternoon counseling under supervision. It would be a form of boot camp without the rigorous Physical Training and verbal harrassment. They could even have a 'bar night' on the weekends if they had no demerits but it too would be supervised with a two drink or beer limit.

    The directors weren't against the idea but they just didn't have the staff ( really cadre) to supervise a bunch of low peforming homeless people so we just kept on warehousing the people in Tenderloin hotel rooms where everything they needed to be kept away from was right outside the front door.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @anon

  20. I’ve always viewed de-institutionalization as primarily being about reallocating tax money from the unfortunate to the undeserving, in the form of expanded welfare.

    I have some sympathy with Hawaiians. Property values have shot up to stratospheric values because they have no control over their borders. And the usual suspects denounce any attempt at identitarianism.

    • Replies: @Wyatt
    @songbird


    I have some sympathy with Hawaiians.
     
    I don't. They treat whites like how blacks treat whites. That is to say, they will assault you for being less melanated and more encephalized than them. Good riddance, I say.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

  21. And noone speaks of who is homeless…. Here in Louisville KY, all i see are young white men. And when i travel outside of Louisville all i see are young white men. Hardly any young blacks, never hispanic or Asian

  22. Destroy the Republican Party Now!

    Financially Liquidate The Billionaires Now!

    Destroy the Globalizers and the Plutocrats and the Oligarchs and the Ruling Class!

    PEWITT CONJURED LOOT PORTION — (PCLP) — Pulverize The Plutocrats!

    Upper Middle Class Neoliberal Whites Are Evil And Treasonous!

    George Washington and Andrew Jackson Forever!

    Pewitt Conjured Loot Portion(PCLP) further explained:

    The Pewitt Conjured Loot Portion(PCLP) will pay each American who has all blood ancestry born in colonial America or the USA before 1924 a cool ten thousand dollars a month. The US Treasury and the Federal Reserve Bank shall work together to conjure up the cash out of thin air, just like the ruling class is doing now.

    https://twitter.com/KeithWoodsYT/status/1353762260695572487?s=20

    • Replies: @neutral
    @Charles Pewitt


    Financially Liquidate The Billionaires Now!
     
    Wouldn't it be better to just literally liquidate them?
  23. As a denizen of urban Honolulu, no, you do not want to end up homeless here. It’s complete and utter law of the jungle. Sure you won’t die in the winter, but unless you do something like smear yourself and your belongings with garbage and feces, or form mutual aid pacts with other semi-normal homeless, you will get beaten and jacked within a week. Maybe some semi-feral Micronesian street kids might decide to kill you for sport if you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time. The cops don’t care and so do most of the people who live here. Hell, a good chunk are a paycheck or two from living in their car or on the street themselves due to the insane COL here. I’ve had coworkers who’ve done a few months in their car or in a park. The stories they told were hair raising.

    As for why the 20 percent of Tramps choose to live that way, it’s because they’re just screwed up in the head in ways that don’t involve a departure from consensus reality. They usually have extreme personality disorders that make it impossible for them to function in normal society for extended periods of time. Either they drive everyone else around them off, or they can no longer stand social norms and opt back out again.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Spike Gomes

    As a denizen of urban Honolulu, no, you do not want to end up homeless here.

    Something mainlanders do not realize about islands: nearly every square centimeter of dirt belongs to someone. One doesn't just go Thoreau and live in the coconut palms, because every single palm belongs to some family or other...and they don't even tolerate some haole messing around with them. It probably wasn't possible 100 years ago, either, but for sure it's not happening now. Have money, and plenty of it, or have family, and plenty of it, or just visit and get out. That's what a feller on Maui told me a few years back.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

  24. @songbird
    I've always viewed de-institutionalization as primarily being about reallocating tax money from the unfortunate to the undeserving, in the form of expanded welfare.

    I have some sympathy with Hawaiians. Property values have shot up to stratospheric values because they have no control over their borders. And the usual suspects denounce any attempt at identitarianism.

    Replies: @Wyatt

    I have some sympathy with Hawaiians.

    I don’t. They treat whites like how blacks treat whites. That is to say, they will assault you for being less melanated and more encephalized than them. Good riddance, I say.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @Wyatt

    Source? Traditionally, it's the Samoans who get bullied for their more encephalized heads and brown skin.


    https://www.civilbeat.org/2016/08/bullying-of-asian-americans-pacific-islanders-on-the-rise/

    Students told to “go back to their country.”

    Others mocked for their facial features, physical stature, skin color, hair and style of dress.

    Peers — and even some teachers — mistreating some students based on stereotypes.

    Recently arrived immigrants not fluent in English bullied for “being too Asian.”

    Those are just some of the many experiences chronicled in a new report from a White House task force focused on preventing bullying of Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders.


    Hawaii was not included, but the findings dovetail with local data compiled by the Hawaii Department of Education.

    For example, 19 percent of Native Hawaiians and 17 percent of Filipinos in Hawaii high schools in 2015 said they had been bullied. The numbers for those same groups more than doubled in middle schools.

    More than 60 percent of Hawaiians and Filipinos in middle school in 2015 agreed that harassment and bullying was a problem at school, according to the state Department of Education. (More than 50 percent of white students said the same.)


    Thor added, “Anecdotal evidence has shown that certain AAPI groups – including South Asian, Muslim, Sikh, Micronesian, LGBT, immigrant, and limited English proficient youth – are more likely to be the targets of bullying. And in some areas, bullying of AAPI students can be shockingly common.”

    “The bullying of Asian-Americans in Hawaii, specifically around Polynesians, Native Hawaiians and LGBT individuals, is on the rise,” said Miyamoto. “We look at the data nationally and we see that Hawaii leads the way in suicide attempts among young people. Those are really daunting numbers that point to a need for increased services and intervention and advocacy.”
     

    https://centerforhealthjournalism.org/files/u98506/Screen%20Shot%202019-06-05%20at%203.50.23%20PM_0.png


    P.S., something like "well, my pimp said blah blah blah blah blah..." is not a source.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

  25. @unit472
    Looks like we are going to experience a tsunami of homelessness in the near future when the moratoriums on foreclosure and evictions on federally guaranteed mortgages expire ( currently set for March 31st)

    Don't know what can be done to avert it not because the Democrats won't be willing to throw whatever amount of money we don't have at the problem but because it will be impossible to design a fair or legal remedy. Does the government assume the delinquent rent/mortgage payments for everyone in arrears due to the pandemic? Tom and Linda in a 4 bedroom three bath suburban home in Westchester might be $25,000 behind on their mortgage payments and still have two leased cars in their driveway while Harry and Diane are $5,000 behind on the rent for their crappy studio apartment in Newark and had their 5 year old Corolla repoed. I just don't see how the Federal government can design a program to accommodate the complexities any federal bailout would entail without creating massive inequities especially with only two months to do it in.

    Replies: @Lot, @Mark G., @Audacious Epigone

    They need to do something about the delinquent renters pretty soon. Landlords are going to start walking away from and abandoning their buildings. Once they do that, the buildings are not going to stay habitable for very long with no maintenance being done on them. In addition to apartment owners, you also have commercial enterprises like restaurants that haven’t been paying rent. In New York city it’s estimated a fourth of all restaurants will end up going out of business. Only 10% have been paying their full rent and the rest are all clamoring for federal help. It will be difficult for building owners to find replacements for the ones that go under.

  26. @nebulafox
    Men are more likely to be at the extremes of human nature, for better or for worse. Among the "worse" are mental illness and addiction.

    Re, escaping homelessness: I don't want to come across as dismissive, but I sometimes feel like people who haven't been long-term unemployed, without resources or social networks, don't really appreciate how much of an uphill battle it can be to get out of that in a world where restaurants no kidding demand to see years of experience or have a connection for dishwashing jobs. That being said, if you want to help the homeless: help them get jobs, help get them off the street, give them social opportunities, and if they need them, medical treatment or counseling.

    What does not help the homeless is turning cities into open air camps. That's just making a lot of other people's lives worse while not helping the homeless. Like so much else that is wrong with modern American society, people want to appear to be doing something so badly that they don't actually care about doing the job.

    Replies: @unit472

    I agree taking someone who has fallen into the gutter and getting them back on their feet is a challenge. They have lost any structure in their lives and most often have become physically repulsive and lost any human dignity as well.

    Decades ago I was working with those ‘Community Housing Corporations’ that were acquiring and spending millions to renovate run down SRO hotels and tenement buildings in San Francisco to house the homeless. It just didn’t work because these people need to be resocialized not given a private room they can trash.

    I suggested acquiring one of the mothballed troop ships from the reserve fleet across the bay and dock it at an unused Port of San Francisco pier. The raw , unsocialized homeless would be put aboard and live in barracks like settings. Up in the morning. Make beds, clean quarters, shower and shave, eat breakfast. Attend counseling sessions until lunch. More afternoon counseling under supervision. It would be a form of boot camp without the rigorous Physical Training and verbal harrassment. They could even have a ‘bar night’ on the weekends if they had no demerits but it too would be supervised with a two drink or beer limit.

    The directors weren’t against the idea but they just didn’t have the staff ( really cadre) to supervise a bunch of low peforming homeless people so we just kept on warehousing the people in Tenderloin hotel rooms where everything they needed to be kept away from was right outside the front door.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @unit472

    Yes, the communal setting is crucial, although I'd add the caveat that it'd be really helpful for them to interact with other people. Of course, pursuing interests and social activities isn't going to be very feasible if you don't know where your next meal is coming from or what your long future is, but I've found that once the absolute basics (physical and psychological) are addressed, people are usually quite keen to restart their lives on higher levels.

    And physical training actually isn't a bad idea, especially weightlifting for the men, although this could be anything. It could-and should-lead to socialization and friendships with non-homeless people. And it's better than any amount of medication in helping to heal the mental damage that anybody who has been completely isolated rejected for years is going to have to heal. It's often forgotten when dealing with people who have lost any sort of self-worth or dignity that this is the sort of thing much better achieved with activity than with words or pills. Obviously, screaming DIs would be the equivalent of taking someone who can't swim and dropping them into the Pacific Ocean, but men respond well to achievement, to challenges. Utilize that.

    I've occasionally wondered if gyms could set up a program that could employ relatively high functioning homeless people, with free access to the floor and the showers as both a perk and a job requirement. Sounds like something that could go great with your idea.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful, @anon

    , @anon
    @unit472

    There are religious groups doing that, setting up homes usually for women but a few are for men. The rule set is pretty simple but it enforced strongly. No drugs, no smoking, no alcohol. A very structured day. It works with people who are or come to be willing to change, just as AA works. It doesn't work very well with people who aren't all that interested in changing.

    Therein lies the actual problem between what used to be called the "deserving poor" and bums. The deserving poor will pull weeds for a while in order to get a cot and a hot at the Rescue Mission, the bums don't want to sober up long enough to do that. Libtards who want to micromanage all of us play a bait-and-switch job routinely, where they show a single mother who got laid off as "typical poor" in order to get agencies to take care of tweaking bums.

    Lots of people want something for nothing. In the long run that can have problems for any of us.

  27. @unit472
    @nebulafox

    I agree taking someone who has fallen into the gutter and getting them back on their feet is a challenge. They have lost any structure in their lives and most often have become physically repulsive and lost any human dignity as well.

    Decades ago I was working with those 'Community Housing Corporations' that were acquiring and spending millions to renovate run down SRO hotels and tenement buildings in San Francisco to house the homeless. It just didn't work because these people need to be resocialized not given a private room they can trash.

    I suggested acquiring one of the mothballed troop ships from the reserve fleet across the bay and dock it at an unused Port of San Francisco pier. The raw , unsocialized homeless would be put aboard and live in barracks like settings. Up in the morning. Make beds, clean quarters, shower and shave, eat breakfast. Attend counseling sessions until lunch. More afternoon counseling under supervision. It would be a form of boot camp without the rigorous Physical Training and verbal harrassment. They could even have a 'bar night' on the weekends if they had no demerits but it too would be supervised with a two drink or beer limit.

    The directors weren't against the idea but they just didn't have the staff ( really cadre) to supervise a bunch of low peforming homeless people so we just kept on warehousing the people in Tenderloin hotel rooms where everything they needed to be kept away from was right outside the front door.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @anon

    Yes, the communal setting is crucial, although I’d add the caveat that it’d be really helpful for them to interact with other people. Of course, pursuing interests and social activities isn’t going to be very feasible if you don’t know where your next meal is coming from or what your long future is, but I’ve found that once the absolute basics (physical and psychological) are addressed, people are usually quite keen to restart their lives on higher levels.

    And physical training actually isn’t a bad idea, especially weightlifting for the men, although this could be anything. It could-and should-lead to socialization and friendships with non-homeless people. And it’s better than any amount of medication in helping to heal the mental damage that anybody who has been completely isolated rejected for years is going to have to heal. It’s often forgotten when dealing with people who have lost any sort of self-worth or dignity that this is the sort of thing much better achieved with activity than with words or pills. Obviously, screaming DIs would be the equivalent of taking someone who can’t swim and dropping them into the Pacific Ocean, but men respond well to achievement, to challenges. Utilize that.

    I’ve occasionally wondered if gyms could set up a program that could employ relatively high functioning homeless people, with free access to the floor and the showers as both a perk and a job requirement. Sounds like something that could go great with your idea.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
    @nebulafox

    Glenn Greenwald's charity which employs homeless people to care for rescued dogs seems like an innovative endeavour.

    Replies: @Dr. Krieger

    , @anon
    @nebulafox

    I’ve found that once the absolute basics (physical and psychological) are addressed, people are usually quite keen to restart their lives on higher levels.

    Maslow's hierarchy is important in such cases. But it does not always apply, and your opinion has a built in selection bias. If you were still in the US I would suggest volunteering at whatever shelter exists in your locality. Serving food to the temporary residents of the shelter, for a start, while bearing in mind that even that is a selected sample. There are people, mostly men, whom no shelter will accept and Maslow's hierarchy doesn't really apply. To be blunt, some people are bad and take pleasure in harming others - their emotional needs are often met at the expense of others.

    I’ve occasionally wondered if gyms could set up a program that could employ relatively high functioning homeless people, with free access to the floor and the showers as both a perk and a job requirement.

    Could work, but only if the gym in question has a right of refusal. The authority to turn away some people is essential. For example, one men's house I know of has a "no smoking" rule; can't come there and smoke anywhere on the property. This alone is a strong filter, because some self-medicaters just cannot deal with it, and that particular house is all about "turn around" not "hang out here forever and we'll carry you".

  28. @Wyatt
    @songbird


    I have some sympathy with Hawaiians.
     
    I don't. They treat whites like how blacks treat whites. That is to say, they will assault you for being less melanated and more encephalized than them. Good riddance, I say.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    Source? Traditionally, it’s the Samoans who get bullied for their more encephalized heads and brown skin.

    https://www.civilbeat.org/2016/08/bullying-of-asian-americans-pacific-islanders-on-the-rise/

    Students told to “go back to their country.”

    Others mocked for their facial features, physical stature, skin color, hair and style of dress.

    Peers — and even some teachers — mistreating some students based on stereotypes.

    Recently arrived immigrants not fluent in English bullied for “being too Asian.”

    Those are just some of the many experiences chronicled in a new report from a White House task force focused on preventing bullying of Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders.

    Hawaii was not included, but the findings dovetail with local data compiled by the Hawaii Department of Education.

    For example, 19 percent of Native Hawaiians and 17 percent of Filipinos in Hawaii high schools in 2015 said they had been bullied. The numbers for those same groups more than doubled in middle schools.

    More than 60 percent of Hawaiians and Filipinos in middle school in 2015 agreed that harassment and bullying was a problem at school, according to the state Department of Education. (More than 50 percent of white students said the same.)

    Thor added, “Anecdotal evidence has shown that certain AAPI groups – including South Asian, Muslim, Sikh, Micronesian, LGBT, immigrant, and limited English proficient youth – are more likely to be the targets of bullying. And in some areas, bullying of AAPI students can be shockingly common.”

    “The bullying of Asian-Americans in Hawaii, specifically around Polynesians, Native Hawaiians and LGBT individuals, is on the rise,” said Miyamoto. “We look at the data nationally and we see that Hawaii leads the way in suicide attempts among young people. Those are really daunting numbers that point to a need for increased services and intervention and advocacy.”

    P.S., something like “well, my pimp said blah blah blah blah blah…” is not a source.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @JohnPlywood

    Are the racial dynamics of bullying similar to those for violent crime, ie mostly intraracial?

  29. I was homeless in London for about 6 months in the late 80s. Well, squatting anyway, which is maybe not technically homeless. Not to sound glib, but it was a great fun. A great sense of freedom. It was summer and I was young, so it didn’t seem too bad.

    I’d moved to London without much of a plan, and ended up squatting. Squatting was common then, like hitch-hiking. Both have declined. At that time, London was at a postwar low in terms of population. So there was thousands of buildings which were just lying empty. Now the population is at an all-time high. Where I used to squat is now another London millionaire’s row.

    You could observe the homeless demographics at the free food vans which would congregate at certain areas around the city. The older ones were mainly white native, and the younger ones more mixed, with more EU immigrants, getting better dole money in the UK I presume. Many were very well read and informed because they had nothing to do all day except read newspapers and books in libraries. Not many alcoholics or druggies. I think seaside towns attract the alcoholics and druggies. I’ve been to San Francisco, and I noticed the homeless there are of a completely different type – completely degenerate shitting-in-the-street and screaming types. On the opposite end of the spectrum are Japanese homeless – neat, tidy and resourceful.

  30. “Why can’t all these unsightly parasites be rounded up and taken to a remote farm somewhere?”

    The answer is the same as for asking “Why is the vaccine rollout so bad?” In the U.S., the new performance standard is “get it basically okay.” Here in California, the capital of homelessness, it is the case that the overwhelming majority of streets do not contain homeless camps. So, good enough. As a Californian, I would like to apologize for this new relaxed standard, because it originated here.

  31. The very low rate of homelessness among whites is surprising to me. In the heavily Hispanic city I live in nearly all homeless are white men. Most of downtown has been taken over by them and their poo and needles.

  32. anon[423] • Disclaimer says:
    @unit472
    @nebulafox

    I agree taking someone who has fallen into the gutter and getting them back on their feet is a challenge. They have lost any structure in their lives and most often have become physically repulsive and lost any human dignity as well.

    Decades ago I was working with those 'Community Housing Corporations' that were acquiring and spending millions to renovate run down SRO hotels and tenement buildings in San Francisco to house the homeless. It just didn't work because these people need to be resocialized not given a private room they can trash.

    I suggested acquiring one of the mothballed troop ships from the reserve fleet across the bay and dock it at an unused Port of San Francisco pier. The raw , unsocialized homeless would be put aboard and live in barracks like settings. Up in the morning. Make beds, clean quarters, shower and shave, eat breakfast. Attend counseling sessions until lunch. More afternoon counseling under supervision. It would be a form of boot camp without the rigorous Physical Training and verbal harrassment. They could even have a 'bar night' on the weekends if they had no demerits but it too would be supervised with a two drink or beer limit.

    The directors weren't against the idea but they just didn't have the staff ( really cadre) to supervise a bunch of low peforming homeless people so we just kept on warehousing the people in Tenderloin hotel rooms where everything they needed to be kept away from was right outside the front door.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @anon

    There are religious groups doing that, setting up homes usually for women but a few are for men. The rule set is pretty simple but it enforced strongly. No drugs, no smoking, no alcohol. A very structured day. It works with people who are or come to be willing to change, just as AA works. It doesn’t work very well with people who aren’t all that interested in changing.

    Therein lies the actual problem between what used to be called the “deserving poor” and bums. The deserving poor will pull weeds for a while in order to get a cot and a hot at the Rescue Mission, the bums don’t want to sober up long enough to do that. Libtards who want to micromanage all of us play a bait-and-switch job routinely, where they show a single mother who got laid off as “typical poor” in order to get agencies to take care of tweaking bums.

    Lots of people want something for nothing. In the long run that can have problems for any of us.

    • Agree: Mark G.
  33. @Charles Pewitt
    Destroy the Republican Party Now!

    Financially Liquidate The Billionaires Now!

    Destroy the Globalizers and the Plutocrats and the Oligarchs and the Ruling Class!

    PEWITT CONJURED LOOT PORTION -- (PCLP) -- Pulverize The Plutocrats!

    Upper Middle Class Neoliberal Whites Are Evil And Treasonous!

    George Washington and Andrew Jackson Forever!

    Pewitt Conjured Loot Portion(PCLP) further explained:

    The Pewitt Conjured Loot Portion(PCLP) will pay each American who has all blood ancestry born in colonial America or the USA before 1924 a cool ten thousand dollars a month. The US Treasury and the Federal Reserve Bank shall work together to conjure up the cash out of thin air, just like the ruling class is doing now.

    https://twitter.com/KeithWoodsYT/status/1353762260695572487?s=20

    https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1353512825575120896?s=20

    https://twitter.com/NorthmanTrader/status/1353717521011060736?s=20

    Replies: @neutral

    Financially Liquidate The Billionaires Now!

    Wouldn’t it be better to just literally liquidate them?

    • LOL: Dr. Krieger
  34. @nebulafox
    @unit472

    Yes, the communal setting is crucial, although I'd add the caveat that it'd be really helpful for them to interact with other people. Of course, pursuing interests and social activities isn't going to be very feasible if you don't know where your next meal is coming from or what your long future is, but I've found that once the absolute basics (physical and psychological) are addressed, people are usually quite keen to restart their lives on higher levels.

    And physical training actually isn't a bad idea, especially weightlifting for the men, although this could be anything. It could-and should-lead to socialization and friendships with non-homeless people. And it's better than any amount of medication in helping to heal the mental damage that anybody who has been completely isolated rejected for years is going to have to heal. It's often forgotten when dealing with people who have lost any sort of self-worth or dignity that this is the sort of thing much better achieved with activity than with words or pills. Obviously, screaming DIs would be the equivalent of taking someone who can't swim and dropping them into the Pacific Ocean, but men respond well to achievement, to challenges. Utilize that.

    I've occasionally wondered if gyms could set up a program that could employ relatively high functioning homeless people, with free access to the floor and the showers as both a perk and a job requirement. Sounds like something that could go great with your idea.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful, @anon

    Glenn Greenwald’s charity which employs homeless people to care for rescued dogs seems like an innovative endeavour.

    • Replies: @Dr. Krieger
    @Not Only Wrathful

    That does sound promising, at least for the As and Os in the CATO sense. I think only proper institutions can help the Cs. The Ts should be left alone, providing they aren't a nuisance.

  35. @Not Only Wrathful
    @nebulafox

    Glenn Greenwald's charity which employs homeless people to care for rescued dogs seems like an innovative endeavour.

    Replies: @Dr. Krieger

    That does sound promising, at least for the As and Os in the CATO sense. I think only proper institutions can help the Cs. The Ts should be left alone, providing they aren’t a nuisance.

  36. How does the US compare to other western countries when it comes to homelessness? I know I could google it but I won’t because I’m not sure that statistics in different western countries are directly comparable.

    If Derbyshire is right that the homeless can be broken down into

    Crazy — 40%
    Addicted — 30%
    Tramps (ie people who prefer the vagrant lifestyle) — 20%
    Out-of-luck — 10%

    then does the US have a bigger problem with some of these sub-groups than other countries? Do other countries have better ways to deal with the Crazy and the Addicted?

    I’ve known seriously crazy people but here in Australia they’re mostly not homeless. And I’ve known seriously addicted people but they’re mostly not homeless. Of course there are some but we don’t seem to have a homeless problem on the same scale as the US.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
    @dfordoom

    It could simply be because most other Western countries are more Socialist than the U.S. Less people fall through the cracks.

    My other idea is that there is something about the American personality type that creates more homeless. We socialize people to be bold and successful. Many fall short on the success but have plenty of boldness. I think this is a reason (other than race factors) that we have so much crime and violence compared to other Western countries. This could also explain homelessness to some degree. There is a certain boldness about being homeless. A more meek poor person would take steps to avoid being destitute. They would play by the rules while the homeless give themselves the freedom not to.

    , @Charlotte
    @dfordoom

    A study was done over a decade ago comparing homelessness in the US, the UK, Belgium, and a couple of other European countries. The researchers used telephone surveys asking people whether they had ever been homeless, etc. Rates of homelessness in the UK were actually a bit higher than the US using their methodology. The other European countries ranged from about 1/3 to 2/3 of the US rates.


    In general, yes, it’s difficult to make apples to apples comparisons, not least because government stats tend to be biased toward people who interact with the government in some way, and homeless people who’ve “dropped out” may be missed, depending on what data is used. Then there is the definition of “homeless”-couch surfers? People in longer-term shelters? People who live in RVs? People living in shantytowns (residents of Brazilian favelas, for example)? Migrants in camps? People living in SROs? Finally, cultural differences may make comparisons misleading.

    It would be interesting to see whether homeless rates of native Europeans in Europe correspond with the Hajnal line at all. Family structure might influence people’s willingness to take in non-nuclear family members fallen on hard times, for example. My suspicion is that homelessness would be higher in areas that emphasize the nuclear family.

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @dfordoom

    I can't say about all affluent Western countries, but in poorer Central Europe, ex-socialist countries- homelessness does not exist. True, there are, I think, numerous homeless people in Ukraine, Russia,... but they struggle to survive in big cities. I guess they lost their jobs.

    Home ownership being around 70-80%, being homeless is virtually unimaginable. Alcoholics have their families or social programs; hell, even Gypsies are not homeless in the American sense. Tramp life-style is something utterly alien- not simply shameful, but not for this planet.

    American-style homelessness (including Hawaii etc.) is as alien as imperial measures (inches, pounds). Vagrancy as a choice or life-style is non-existent. Also - I don't know a single man who was destroyed by divorce. This simply doesn't happen.

    Replies: @Wency

  37. anon[329] • Disclaimer says:
    @Spike Gomes
    As a denizen of urban Honolulu, no, you do not want to end up homeless here. It's complete and utter law of the jungle. Sure you won't die in the winter, but unless you do something like smear yourself and your belongings with garbage and feces, or form mutual aid pacts with other semi-normal homeless, you will get beaten and jacked within a week. Maybe some semi-feral Micronesian street kids might decide to kill you for sport if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. The cops don't care and so do most of the people who live here. Hell, a good chunk are a paycheck or two from living in their car or on the street themselves due to the insane COL here. I've had coworkers who've done a few months in their car or in a park. The stories they told were hair raising.

    As for why the 20 percent of Tramps choose to live that way, it's because they're just screwed up in the head in ways that don't involve a departure from consensus reality. They usually have extreme personality disorders that make it impossible for them to function in normal society for extended periods of time. Either they drive everyone else around them off, or they can no longer stand social norms and opt back out again.

    Replies: @anon

    As a denizen of urban Honolulu, no, you do not want to end up homeless here.

    Something mainlanders do not realize about islands: nearly every square centimeter of dirt belongs to someone. One doesn’t just go Thoreau and live in the coconut palms, because every single palm belongs to some family or other…and they don’t even tolerate some haole messing around with them. It probably wasn’t possible 100 years ago, either, but for sure it’s not happening now. Have money, and plenty of it, or have family, and plenty of it, or just visit and get out. That’s what a feller on Maui told me a few years back.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @anon

    Not true, lots of white squatters on Hawaiian land:


    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/hawaiis-last-outlaw-hippies-180968268/


    Nobody cares what your pimp in Maui told you.

    Replies: @anon

  38. @anon
    @Spike Gomes

    As a denizen of urban Honolulu, no, you do not want to end up homeless here.

    Something mainlanders do not realize about islands: nearly every square centimeter of dirt belongs to someone. One doesn't just go Thoreau and live in the coconut palms, because every single palm belongs to some family or other...and they don't even tolerate some haole messing around with them. It probably wasn't possible 100 years ago, either, but for sure it's not happening now. Have money, and plenty of it, or have family, and plenty of it, or just visit and get out. That's what a feller on Maui told me a few years back.

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    Not true, lots of white squatters on Hawaiian land:

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/hawaiis-last-outlaw-hippies-180968268/

    Nobody cares what your pimp in Maui told you.

    • Replies: @anon
    @JohnPlywood

    Not true, lots of white squatters on Hawaiian land:

    Obviously you did not bother to read the article. They are being cleared out by the state rather than families, but they are being cleared out. Just as I said, every square centimeter belongs to someone, and that goes for the wild land near Hana on Maui, too.

    Nobody cares what your pimp in Maui told you.

    Boring troll. One of the most boring trolls on the site, in fact.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @JohnPlywood

  39. @dfordoom
    How does the US compare to other western countries when it comes to homelessness? I know I could google it but I won't because I'm not sure that statistics in different western countries are directly comparable.

    If Derbyshire is right that the homeless can be broken down into

    Crazy — 40%
    Addicted — 30%
    Tramps (ie people who prefer the vagrant lifestyle) — 20%
    Out-of-luck — 10%

    then does the US have a bigger problem with some of these sub-groups than other countries? Do other countries have better ways to deal with the Crazy and the Addicted?

    I've known seriously crazy people but here in Australia they're mostly not homeless. And I've known seriously addicted people but they're mostly not homeless. Of course there are some but we don't seem to have a homeless problem on the same scale as the US.

    Replies: @Jay Fink, @Charlotte, @Bardon Kaldian

    It could simply be because most other Western countries are more Socialist than the U.S. Less people fall through the cracks.

    My other idea is that there is something about the American personality type that creates more homeless. We socialize people to be bold and successful. Many fall short on the success but have plenty of boldness. I think this is a reason (other than race factors) that we have so much crime and violence compared to other Western countries. This could also explain homelessness to some degree. There is a certain boldness about being homeless. A more meek poor person would take steps to avoid being destitute. They would play by the rules while the homeless give themselves the freedom not to.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  40. @AaronB
    I have long fantasized about adopting a homeless vagrant lifestyle, but have so far lacked the courage.

    There is something very spiritually appealing about giving it all up and wandering. The closest I have come so far is lots of travelling, camping, and living simply.

    Perhaps one day I will muster the courage to be truly homeless, a wandering vagrant. I am heartened that there are bohemians and hobos doing this even today, people who have the courage.

    Alan Watts says somewhere there are tons of us who would want to become beach combers, but lack the courage.

    The Hindus had a beautiful practice of first having a family and job, then giving it all over to your oldest son in your final years and wandering the mountains alone, casting off your superficial social identity and becoming one with the Eternal. How beautiful!

    The Chinese had a similar practice, where a high official would cast off his duties in his later years and retreat to the mountains and live as a wandering hermit - a true Old Man Of The Mountains, they would call him.

    Why do we not have such possibilities today? All must work to increase wealth! But in every society before ours, there was always an outlet for people too profound to play the tedious social game, and people saw value in people who had the courage to opt out and connect with the Eternal.

    There is a huge surge in people taking to vanlife and the like,so that's heartening too.

    Replies: @Daniel Williams, @nokangaroos

    There is a huge surge in people taking to vanlife and the like,so that’s heartening too.

    Less so for the people with the stranger’s piece-of-shit parked in front of their house: “Daddy, who are those people?”

  41. @AaronB
    I have long fantasized about adopting a homeless vagrant lifestyle, but have so far lacked the courage.

    There is something very spiritually appealing about giving it all up and wandering. The closest I have come so far is lots of travelling, camping, and living simply.

    Perhaps one day I will muster the courage to be truly homeless, a wandering vagrant. I am heartened that there are bohemians and hobos doing this even today, people who have the courage.

    Alan Watts says somewhere there are tons of us who would want to become beach combers, but lack the courage.

    The Hindus had a beautiful practice of first having a family and job, then giving it all over to your oldest son in your final years and wandering the mountains alone, casting off your superficial social identity and becoming one with the Eternal. How beautiful!

    The Chinese had a similar practice, where a high official would cast off his duties in his later years and retreat to the mountains and live as a wandering hermit - a true Old Man Of The Mountains, they would call him.

    Why do we not have such possibilities today? All must work to increase wealth! But in every society before ours, there was always an outlet for people too profound to play the tedious social game, and people saw value in people who had the courage to opt out and connect with the Eternal.

    There is a huge surge in people taking to vanlife and the like,so that's heartening too.

    Replies: @Daniel Williams, @nokangaroos

    Steinbeck, more than Thoreau, sang the praises of the Simple Life ™ – in California.
    And he gave us the distinction “hobo”(migrant worker), “tramp”(dito but no intention to work) and “bum”(lowest rung, beyond repair).
    And everybody from Johann Georg Forster (blue-eyed perma-horny youth) to Gauguin (degenerate child-molesting lecher) liked Tahiti;
    be advised most tropical island paradises will not even let you in on a one-way ticket any longer, and the carrier usually takes responsibility for getting you off again.

    – In the Aryan´s more natural habitat, life is not simple.
    The nights in reeking subway restrooms, huddled together for warmth, sharing two-liter plastic bottles of rotgut wine, smoking “jailbird´s special” and doing existential philosophy distinctly lose in appeal when you really have nowhere else to go.

    The average homeless? White, male, over middle aged, divorced and heavy drinker
    (not always clear but I get the impression divorce often comes first). And I wouldn´t stand for everybody´s mental health.

    The druggies have their own subculture – usually squatting, antifa and large dogs as not potty trained and aggressive as their owners
    (and some obviously have well-to-do parents).

    Alaska, maybe … 😉

  42. @anonymous
    @anonymous

    There is definitely a huge regional difference in the homeless within the US, from what I can tell.

    Broadly generalizing, in cities in roughly the Eastern half of the country, the homeless tend to be indigenous to the places they are currently homeless in, and originally real economic hardcases who then, because of their terrible circumstances, have developed problems with drugs and alcohol and mental problems. I would drink and do drugs too if I had to spend all day outdoors in Chicago in January, or was confined to Detroit or Camden in any month.

    However in Western cities like Seattle, Portland, SF, LA, Denver, Phoenix, and so on, the homeless seem to be aficionados of drugs and alcohol who were attracted to the lifestyle of no job and no responsibilities. They largely came to those places from elsewhere, attracted by the whole scene, and the permissive local attitude to trespassing, panhandling, public intoxication, drug transactions, and lately setting up camp anywhere they feel like.

    Then there are the largely "unseen" homeless who are outside of central cities, in suburbs and rural areas, living in cars and abandoned houses. They probably skew much more toward women with kids, and I don't know if they even get counted.

    Replies: @Wency

    Your east vs. west assessment is valid, but this isn’t:

    because of their terrible circumstances, have developed problems with drugs and alcohol and mental problems.

    I think your point about drug/alcohol problems coming after the homelessness is largely false, but I know it’s especially false of mental illness among the homeless, with which we’re really talking about schizophrenia and related disorders. Schizophrenia has a very large genetic component, and usually the most relevant environmental trigger is consumption of hallucinogens, not things like stress or hardship.

    As I observed upthread, I have a schizophrenic relative, and I can assure you that his upbringing was into a solid and loving middle class family. But he had a complete mental breakdown in his early 20s, would either be homeless, in prison, or dead if not for a combination of family intervention and the state-sponsored program he’s in. Indeed, he spent a bit of time both homeless and in jail (for an insane and nonsensical act of property destruction) before his family stepped in.

    Most people aren’t homeless, which means most people who develop schizophrenia have a home at the time it happens, and it’s the mental illness that causes the homelessness. It takes a lot of thankless work to keep schizophrenics from becoming homeless, which I’m sure a very large number of families fail at. Something like 20% of the homeless population has severe mental illness, and the number is surely larger among the involuntarily homeless, and probably also among the white homeless.

    • Agree: dfordoom
  43. Anyone have an idea how much of the Pacific Islander homelessness in Hawaii is actual Hawaiians, and how much is Compact of Free Association “unlimited visas for Micronesians” types who should be deported as public charges (but mysteriously it never happens)?

  44. anon[251] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox
    @unit472

    Yes, the communal setting is crucial, although I'd add the caveat that it'd be really helpful for them to interact with other people. Of course, pursuing interests and social activities isn't going to be very feasible if you don't know where your next meal is coming from or what your long future is, but I've found that once the absolute basics (physical and psychological) are addressed, people are usually quite keen to restart their lives on higher levels.

    And physical training actually isn't a bad idea, especially weightlifting for the men, although this could be anything. It could-and should-lead to socialization and friendships with non-homeless people. And it's better than any amount of medication in helping to heal the mental damage that anybody who has been completely isolated rejected for years is going to have to heal. It's often forgotten when dealing with people who have lost any sort of self-worth or dignity that this is the sort of thing much better achieved with activity than with words or pills. Obviously, screaming DIs would be the equivalent of taking someone who can't swim and dropping them into the Pacific Ocean, but men respond well to achievement, to challenges. Utilize that.

    I've occasionally wondered if gyms could set up a program that could employ relatively high functioning homeless people, with free access to the floor and the showers as both a perk and a job requirement. Sounds like something that could go great with your idea.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful, @anon

    I’ve found that once the absolute basics (physical and psychological) are addressed, people are usually quite keen to restart their lives on higher levels.

    Maslow’s hierarchy is important in such cases. But it does not always apply, and your opinion has a built in selection bias. If you were still in the US I would suggest volunteering at whatever shelter exists in your locality. Serving food to the temporary residents of the shelter, for a start, while bearing in mind that even that is a selected sample. There are people, mostly men, whom no shelter will accept and Maslow’s hierarchy doesn’t really apply. To be blunt, some people are bad and take pleasure in harming others – their emotional needs are often met at the expense of others.

    I’ve occasionally wondered if gyms could set up a program that could employ relatively high functioning homeless people, with free access to the floor and the showers as both a perk and a job requirement.

    Could work, but only if the gym in question has a right of refusal. The authority to turn away some people is essential. For example, one men’s house I know of has a “no smoking” rule; can’t come there and smoke anywhere on the property. This alone is a strong filter, because some self-medicaters just cannot deal with it, and that particular house is all about “turn around” not “hang out here forever and we’ll carry you”.

  45. anon[251] • Disclaimer says:
    @JohnPlywood
    @anon

    Not true, lots of white squatters on Hawaiian land:


    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/hawaiis-last-outlaw-hippies-180968268/


    Nobody cares what your pimp in Maui told you.

    Replies: @anon

    Not true, lots of white squatters on Hawaiian land:

    Obviously you did not bother to read the article. They are being cleared out by the state rather than families, but they are being cleared out. Just as I said, every square centimeter belongs to someone, and that goes for the wild land near Hana on Maui, too.

    Nobody cares what your pimp in Maui told you.

    Boring troll. One of the most boring trolls on the site, in fact.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @anon

    That's what the ignore button is for.

    , @JohnPlywood
    @anon

    They aren't being cleared out by anyone, numbnuts. Cite a single paragraph that says that.

    You dummies gotta learn to stop coping. You cannot escape reality by making shit up on the internet.

    Replies: @anon

  46. @anon
    @JohnPlywood

    Not true, lots of white squatters on Hawaiian land:

    Obviously you did not bother to read the article. They are being cleared out by the state rather than families, but they are being cleared out. Just as I said, every square centimeter belongs to someone, and that goes for the wild land near Hana on Maui, too.

    Nobody cares what your pimp in Maui told you.

    Boring troll. One of the most boring trolls on the site, in fact.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @JohnPlywood

    That’s what the ignore button is for.

  47. Is there a man reading this who isn’t at least a little intrigued by the modern day Diogenes?

    When we reach the stage at which we really don’t give a s**t, we are likely to be diagnosed with “Diogenes Syndrome”:

    https://www.healthline.com/health/diogenes-syndrome

  48. @anon
    @JohnPlywood

    Not true, lots of white squatters on Hawaiian land:

    Obviously you did not bother to read the article. They are being cleared out by the state rather than families, but they are being cleared out. Just as I said, every square centimeter belongs to someone, and that goes for the wild land near Hana on Maui, too.

    Nobody cares what your pimp in Maui told you.

    Boring troll. One of the most boring trolls on the site, in fact.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @JohnPlywood

    They aren’t being cleared out by anyone, numbnuts. Cite a single paragraph that says that.

    You dummies gotta learn to stop coping. You cannot escape reality by making shit up on the internet.

    • Replies: @anon
    @JohnPlywood

    They aren’t being cleared out by anyone, numbnuts. Cite a single paragraph that says that.

    Pretty much the entire article you linked to is about how there used to be guys living in that valley, but the government has been clearing them out. You should read stuff before linking to it.

    You cannot escape reality by making shit up on the internet.

    Unintentional irony from a troll is some of the best irony.

    lol

  49. @dfordoom
    How does the US compare to other western countries when it comes to homelessness? I know I could google it but I won't because I'm not sure that statistics in different western countries are directly comparable.

    If Derbyshire is right that the homeless can be broken down into

    Crazy — 40%
    Addicted — 30%
    Tramps (ie people who prefer the vagrant lifestyle) — 20%
    Out-of-luck — 10%

    then does the US have a bigger problem with some of these sub-groups than other countries? Do other countries have better ways to deal with the Crazy and the Addicted?

    I've known seriously crazy people but here in Australia they're mostly not homeless. And I've known seriously addicted people but they're mostly not homeless. Of course there are some but we don't seem to have a homeless problem on the same scale as the US.

    Replies: @Jay Fink, @Charlotte, @Bardon Kaldian

    A study was done over a decade ago comparing homelessness in the US, the UK, Belgium, and a couple of other European countries. The researchers used telephone surveys asking people whether they had ever been homeless, etc. Rates of homelessness in the UK were actually a bit higher than the US using their methodology. The other European countries ranged from about 1/3 to 2/3 of the US rates.

    [MORE]

    In general, yes, it’s difficult to make apples to apples comparisons, not least because government stats tend to be biased toward people who interact with the government in some way, and homeless people who’ve “dropped out” may be missed, depending on what data is used. Then there is the definition of “homeless”-couch surfers? People in longer-term shelters? People who live in RVs? People living in shantytowns (residents of Brazilian favelas, for example)? Migrants in camps? People living in SROs? Finally, cultural differences may make comparisons misleading.

    It would be interesting to see whether homeless rates of native Europeans in Europe correspond with the Hajnal line at all. Family structure might influence people’s willingness to take in non-nuclear family members fallen on hard times, for example. My suspicion is that homelessness would be higher in areas that emphasize the nuclear family.

    • Thanks: dfordoom
  50. AaronB: “I have long fantasized about adopting a homeless vagrant lifestyle, but have so far lacked the courage. … Why do we not have such possibilities today?”

    But how would you get your living? Homeless people are all beggars in one way or another; dependent on the charity of others. Have there ever been any Jews who are professional beggars? I’ve never met one or even heard of one, outside of fictional individuals such as Jesus or John the Baptist. Traditionally, Jews make other people into beggars, but disdain begging themselves. Crime is more their line; scams and clever schemes.

    “It is remarkable that there is little or nothing to be remembered written on the subject of getting a living: how to make getting a living not merely honest and honorable, but altogether inviting and glorious; for if getting a living is not so, then living is not. One would think, from looking at literature, that this question had never disturbed a solitary individual’s musings. Is it that men are too much disgusted with their experience to speak of it?”
    – Thoreau, in “Life Without Principle”

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Dr. Robert Morgan


    Have there ever been any Jews who are professional beggars? I’ve never met one or even heard of one, outside of fictional individuals such as Jesus or John the Baptist
     
    .

    The kind of begging where you sit in a spot with a can for coins is unusual among Jews, but begging in other forms is common. Its common to go house to house and ask for charity for yeshivas or charities or food banks (I think 10% charity os obligatory for the religious).

    But in general among religious Jews, begging isn't necessary. Not only are there charities and organizations that supply everything you need, but there are weekly publications of things people are either giving away or lending, from wedding dresses to space heaters to winter coats to shoes.

    Also, its not uncommon for some people to live a life where you are "taken care" of by various friends and family and people you meet - crash at their place, eat their food, etc, sort of like couchsurfing, fpr years if not a lifetime, and there are various "houses" in the cities and increasingly also in the countryside provided by wealthy Jews where poor people, bums, or just various needy or dysfunctional prople can live for free - there is always some non-Jews who end up at these places too, and are taken in and given shelter. They always have a few very unusual and interesting characters.

    And someone someone knows will always have an apartment somewhere that's empty, or some work or a job, etc - you alwats get taken care of unless explicitly don't wish to be a part of the community.

    While it provides a safety net, it can be suffocating as well.

    But charity, and its corollary begging, is huge among Jews.

    As for how would I live if I became homeless? Well, first of all food is abundant and easily available in multiple locations throughout any city, and restaurants and stores like Starbucks and Dunkin Donuts throw out huge ounts of food each day.

    I was watching this YouTube video of this girl living out of her car and mountain climbing who dumpster dived behind Starbucks- she would find perfect, unwrapped, expensive meals every day.

    I dont know what the charity situation is in small towns, though.

    But in my vision, I'd simply work to make a little bit of money, just enough to get by or pay for something when I wanted, and spend the rest of my time camping, idling, in the mountains. With the minimum wage $15, you could work nearly anything, odd gigs here and there. In the modern world, I'd have a cheap car in sleep in it, and maybe do Uber Eats or Door Dash. You can make $200 in a ten hour shift. Maybe I'd live in LA and work a week and then go to Joshua Tree and spend three weeks in the desert. Maybe I'd do the same thing by Seattle at other times of the year. Maybe I'd fish to supplement my food.

    My life would one of freedom in nature, with work a minority.

    I was reading this fascinating article about these kids living homeless in Golden Gare Park I think it was. They all chose the life and were enjoying it immensely. They would work odd jobs whenever they wanted money for something, but otherwise had everything they needed.

    Thank you for the Thoreau quote. Work - "drudgery" - was invented when man turned to agriculture and had to create a surplus for an extractive elite. The Bible recognizes it as a curse, and all cultures did. It is sad to see that the elite have managed to convince the masses that work is ennobling and dignified. The slaves adopt the values of the master.

    I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday, a bit of a communist, who said people should have the right to just be lazy and have their basic needs met. And he's absolutely right. The surplus exists. But work has become an "ideology". Marx's grandson, Daniel Laforgue wrote a pamphlet called " The Right To Be Lazy" - against the growing ideoligization of work into something you needed to do on order to have "dignity".

    Or, if you think no work is too extreme, people should be able to work little and have simple lives if they so choose.
    , @RSDB
    @Dr. Robert Morgan

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13293-schnorrer


    Judæo-German term of reproach for a Jewish beggar having some pretensions to respectability. In contrast to the ordinary house-to-house beggar, whose business is known and easily recognized, the schnorrer assumes a gentlemanly appearance, disguises his purpose, gives evasive reasons for asking assistance, and is not satisfied with small favors, being indeed quite indignant when such are offered.

     

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  51. @Dr. Robert Morgan
    AaronB: "I have long fantasized about adopting a homeless vagrant lifestyle, but have so far lacked the courage. ... Why do we not have such possibilities today?"

    But how would you get your living? Homeless people are all beggars in one way or another; dependent on the charity of others. Have there ever been any Jews who are professional beggars? I've never met one or even heard of one, outside of fictional individuals such as Jesus or John the Baptist. Traditionally, Jews make other people into beggars, but disdain begging themselves. Crime is more their line; scams and clever schemes.

    "It is remarkable that there is little or nothing to be remembered written on the subject of getting a living: how to make getting a living not merely honest and honorable, but altogether inviting and glorious; for if getting a living is not so, then living is not. One would think, from looking at literature, that this question had never disturbed a solitary individual’s musings. Is it that men are too much disgusted with their experience to speak of it?"
    - Thoreau, in "Life Without Principle"

    Replies: @AaronB, @RSDB

    Have there ever been any Jews who are professional beggars? I’ve never met one or even heard of one, outside of fictional individuals such as Jesus or John the Baptist

    .

    The kind of begging where you sit in a spot with a can for coins is unusual among Jews, but begging in other forms is common. Its common to go house to house and ask for charity for yeshivas or charities or food banks (I think 10% charity os obligatory for the religious).

    But in general among religious Jews, begging isn’t necessary. Not only are there charities and organizations that supply everything you need, but there are weekly publications of things people are either giving away or lending, from wedding dresses to space heaters to winter coats to shoes.

    Also, its not uncommon for some people to live a life where you are “taken care” of by various friends and family and people you meet – crash at their place, eat their food, etc, sort of like couchsurfing, fpr years if not a lifetime, and there are various “houses” in the cities and increasingly also in the countryside provided by wealthy Jews where poor people, bums, or just various needy or dysfunctional prople can live for free – there is always some non-Jews who end up at these places too, and are taken in and given shelter. They always have a few very unusual and interesting characters.

    And someone someone knows will always have an apartment somewhere that’s empty, or some work or a job, etc – you alwats get taken care of unless explicitly don’t wish to be a part of the community.

    While it provides a safety net, it can be suffocating as well.

    But charity, and its corollary begging, is huge among Jews.

    As for how would I live if I became homeless? Well, first of all food is abundant and easily available in multiple locations throughout any city, and restaurants and stores like Starbucks and Dunkin Donuts throw out huge ounts of food each day.

    I was watching this YouTube video of this girl living out of her car and mountain climbing who dumpster dived behind Starbucks- she would find perfect, unwrapped, expensive meals every day.

    I dont know what the charity situation is in small towns, though.

    But in my vision, I’d simply work to make a little bit of money, just enough to get by or pay for something when I wanted, and spend the rest of my time camping, idling, in the mountains. With the minimum wage $15, you could work nearly anything, odd gigs here and there. In the modern world, I’d have a cheap car in sleep in it, and maybe do Uber Eats or Door Dash. You can make $200 in a ten hour shift. Maybe I’d live in LA and work a week and then go to Joshua Tree and spend three weeks in the desert. Maybe I’d do the same thing by Seattle at other times of the year. Maybe I’d fish to supplement my food.

    My life would one of freedom in nature, with work a minority.

    I was reading this fascinating article about these kids living homeless in Golden Gare Park I think it was. They all chose the life and were enjoying it immensely. They would work odd jobs whenever they wanted money for something, but otherwise had everything they needed.

    Thank you for the Thoreau quote. Work – “drudgery” – was invented when man turned to agriculture and had to create a surplus for an extractive elite. The Bible recognizes it as a curse, and all cultures did. It is sad to see that the elite have managed to convince the masses that work is ennobling and dignified. The slaves adopt the values of the master.

    I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday, a bit of a communist, who said people should have the right to just be lazy and have their basic needs met. And he’s absolutely right. The surplus exists. But work has become an “ideology”. Marx’s grandson, Daniel Laforgue wrote a pamphlet called ” The Right To Be Lazy” – against the growing ideoligization of work into something you needed to do on order to have “dignity”.

    Or, if you think no work is too extreme, people should be able to work little and have simple lives if they so choose.

  52. @dfordoom
    How does the US compare to other western countries when it comes to homelessness? I know I could google it but I won't because I'm not sure that statistics in different western countries are directly comparable.

    If Derbyshire is right that the homeless can be broken down into

    Crazy — 40%
    Addicted — 30%
    Tramps (ie people who prefer the vagrant lifestyle) — 20%
    Out-of-luck — 10%

    then does the US have a bigger problem with some of these sub-groups than other countries? Do other countries have better ways to deal with the Crazy and the Addicted?

    I've known seriously crazy people but here in Australia they're mostly not homeless. And I've known seriously addicted people but they're mostly not homeless. Of course there are some but we don't seem to have a homeless problem on the same scale as the US.

    Replies: @Jay Fink, @Charlotte, @Bardon Kaldian

    I can’t say about all affluent Western countries, but in poorer Central Europe, ex-socialist countries- homelessness does not exist. True, there are, I think, numerous homeless people in Ukraine, Russia,… but they struggle to survive in big cities. I guess they lost their jobs.

    Home ownership being around 70-80%, being homeless is virtually unimaginable. Alcoholics have their families or social programs; hell, even Gypsies are not homeless in the American sense. Tramp life-style is something utterly alien- not simply shameful, but not for this planet.

    American-style homelessness (including Hawaii etc.) is as alien as imperial measures (inches, pounds). Vagrancy as a choice or life-style is non-existent. Also – I don’t know a single man who was destroyed by divorce. This simply doesn’t happen.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @Bardon Kaldian

    FWIW, I'm American and don't personally know a single man destroyed by divorce. I'm sure it happens, but it's an overplayed trope. Though do take all possible measures to marry well, good advice in any age.

    The people I know personally who have divorced were usually broke and didn't have kids. If they did have kids and joint custody didn't happen, it was because one parent (usually dad but in one case mom) had little to no interest in being a parent, hence the divorce. And child support might kind of suck, but it was the price of freedom from all other parenting responsibilities.

  53. @Dr. Robert Morgan
    AaronB: "I have long fantasized about adopting a homeless vagrant lifestyle, but have so far lacked the courage. ... Why do we not have such possibilities today?"

    But how would you get your living? Homeless people are all beggars in one way or another; dependent on the charity of others. Have there ever been any Jews who are professional beggars? I've never met one or even heard of one, outside of fictional individuals such as Jesus or John the Baptist. Traditionally, Jews make other people into beggars, but disdain begging themselves. Crime is more their line; scams and clever schemes.

    "It is remarkable that there is little or nothing to be remembered written on the subject of getting a living: how to make getting a living not merely honest and honorable, but altogether inviting and glorious; for if getting a living is not so, then living is not. One would think, from looking at literature, that this question had never disturbed a solitary individual’s musings. Is it that men are too much disgusted with their experience to speak of it?"
    - Thoreau, in "Life Without Principle"

    Replies: @AaronB, @RSDB

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13293-schnorrer

    Judæo-German term of reproach for a Jewish beggar having some pretensions to respectability. In contrast to the ordinary house-to-house beggar, whose business is known and easily recognized, the schnorrer assumes a gentlemanly appearance, disguises his purpose, gives evasive reasons for asking assistance, and is not satisfied with small favors, being indeed quite indignant when such are offered.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @RSDB

    Schnorrer is not a beggar, but a cunning parasite.

    Israelis used to joke that their pre-1970s economy was a schnorrer economy, because it depended, in many ways, on German reparations & other external sources, and not on entrepreneurship, innovation, productivity & capitalism, which Begin introduced & Netanyahu perfected.

  54. @RSDB
    @Dr. Robert Morgan

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13293-schnorrer


    Judæo-German term of reproach for a Jewish beggar having some pretensions to respectability. In contrast to the ordinary house-to-house beggar, whose business is known and easily recognized, the schnorrer assumes a gentlemanly appearance, disguises his purpose, gives evasive reasons for asking assistance, and is not satisfied with small favors, being indeed quite indignant when such are offered.

     

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Schnorrer is not a beggar, but a cunning parasite.

    Israelis used to joke that their pre-1970s economy was a schnorrer economy, because it depended, in many ways, on German reparations & other external sources, and not on entrepreneurship, innovation, productivity & capitalism, which Begin introduced & Netanyahu perfected.

  55. @Bardon Kaldian
    @dfordoom

    I can't say about all affluent Western countries, but in poorer Central Europe, ex-socialist countries- homelessness does not exist. True, there are, I think, numerous homeless people in Ukraine, Russia,... but they struggle to survive in big cities. I guess they lost their jobs.

    Home ownership being around 70-80%, being homeless is virtually unimaginable. Alcoholics have their families or social programs; hell, even Gypsies are not homeless in the American sense. Tramp life-style is something utterly alien- not simply shameful, but not for this planet.

    American-style homelessness (including Hawaii etc.) is as alien as imperial measures (inches, pounds). Vagrancy as a choice or life-style is non-existent. Also - I don't know a single man who was destroyed by divorce. This simply doesn't happen.

    Replies: @Wency

    FWIW, I’m American and don’t personally know a single man destroyed by divorce. I’m sure it happens, but it’s an overplayed trope. Though do take all possible measures to marry well, good advice in any age.

    The people I know personally who have divorced were usually broke and didn’t have kids. If they did have kids and joint custody didn’t happen, it was because one parent (usually dad but in one case mom) had little to no interest in being a parent, hence the divorce. And child support might kind of suck, but it was the price of freedom from all other parenting responsibilities.

  56. @angmoh
    Does alcohol count towards 'addicted'?

    Replies: @Trengi, @Audacious Epigone

    of course, why would it not?

  57. anon[855] • Disclaimer says:
    @JohnPlywood
    @anon

    They aren't being cleared out by anyone, numbnuts. Cite a single paragraph that says that.

    You dummies gotta learn to stop coping. You cannot escape reality by making shit up on the internet.

    Replies: @anon

    They aren’t being cleared out by anyone, numbnuts. Cite a single paragraph that says that.

    Pretty much the entire article you linked to is about how there used to be guys living in that valley, but the government has been clearing them out. You should read stuff before linking to it.

    You cannot escape reality by making shit up on the internet.

    Unintentional irony from a troll is some of the best irony.

    lol

  58. @anon
    Thanks. Most interesting. If asked, I would have put the percentage of men at 90% based on observation.

    There are men under the freeways who have various warrants out on them. With no ID and no address it's pretty easy for them to not get arrested. Do they count as T or O?

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Good question. Probably Ts since they presumably chose that life consciously.

  59. @angmoh
    Does alcohol count towards 'addicted'?

    Replies: @Trengi, @Audacious Epigone

    Yeah, I assume so.

  60. @Achmed E. Newman
    Forgive me, as I don't do this O/T thing often.

    O/T: It was too late to reply to a reply comment of yours, as I just saw it yesterday, comments are closed, and well, most of a week in internet time is like a year used to be or something. Regarding the Capitol Gang soiree 3 weeks back:

    Hate to break it to you, but if Americans won’t even state their opinions in an anonymous poll, they’re never going to do anything in the real world to protect and promote their beliefs.
     
    We're talking different numbers here. I didn't say EVERYONE would be scared to state their opinions, but just a big percentage. Americans have become pretty spineless. The Lyin' Press Infotainment is pretty blatantly barraging people with talk about the government "coming to get you" if you get out of line, and too many Americans believe they can "get" us all.

    It's probably not breaking it to you, AE, as you are an intelligent guy, but it was only a small percentage of Americans that actively worked against the Crown of Great Britain in the mid-1970s. Some say it was a measly 3%. Those 3% may have answered honestly in the polls, but then again, maybe they are the ones who have a good reason not to.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    I think the Bolsheviks did it with an even smaller population share.

  61. @unit472
    Looks like we are going to experience a tsunami of homelessness in the near future when the moratoriums on foreclosure and evictions on federally guaranteed mortgages expire ( currently set for March 31st)

    Don't know what can be done to avert it not because the Democrats won't be willing to throw whatever amount of money we don't have at the problem but because it will be impossible to design a fair or legal remedy. Does the government assume the delinquent rent/mortgage payments for everyone in arrears due to the pandemic? Tom and Linda in a 4 bedroom three bath suburban home in Westchester might be $25,000 behind on their mortgage payments and still have two leased cars in their driveway while Harry and Diane are $5,000 behind on the rent for their crappy studio apartment in Newark and had their 5 year old Corolla repoed. I just don't see how the Federal government can design a program to accommodate the complexities any federal bailout would entail without creating massive inequities especially with only two months to do it in.

    Replies: @Lot, @Mark G., @Audacious Epigone

    It’s a huge open question as to how this is going to be resolved. So far, delinquency rates aren’t much worse than last year. But then again April was the highest month for personal incomes in the history of the country–yes, April, when jobless claims were in the tens of millions–because of government transfers through the CARES Act and through enhanced unemployment benefits. January 2021 almost certainly broke that record. So people still have cash, but far fewer are actually earning it. The system wants to bring evictions back, but the populace–especially Democrat voters–don’t. Not sure how it resolves.

  62. @JohnPlywood
    @Wyatt

    Source? Traditionally, it's the Samoans who get bullied for their more encephalized heads and brown skin.


    https://www.civilbeat.org/2016/08/bullying-of-asian-americans-pacific-islanders-on-the-rise/

    Students told to “go back to their country.”

    Others mocked for their facial features, physical stature, skin color, hair and style of dress.

    Peers — and even some teachers — mistreating some students based on stereotypes.

    Recently arrived immigrants not fluent in English bullied for “being too Asian.”

    Those are just some of the many experiences chronicled in a new report from a White House task force focused on preventing bullying of Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders.


    Hawaii was not included, but the findings dovetail with local data compiled by the Hawaii Department of Education.

    For example, 19 percent of Native Hawaiians and 17 percent of Filipinos in Hawaii high schools in 2015 said they had been bullied. The numbers for those same groups more than doubled in middle schools.

    More than 60 percent of Hawaiians and Filipinos in middle school in 2015 agreed that harassment and bullying was a problem at school, according to the state Department of Education. (More than 50 percent of white students said the same.)


    Thor added, “Anecdotal evidence has shown that certain AAPI groups – including South Asian, Muslim, Sikh, Micronesian, LGBT, immigrant, and limited English proficient youth – are more likely to be the targets of bullying. And in some areas, bullying of AAPI students can be shockingly common.”

    “The bullying of Asian-Americans in Hawaii, specifically around Polynesians, Native Hawaiians and LGBT individuals, is on the rise,” said Miyamoto. “We look at the data nationally and we see that Hawaii leads the way in suicide attempts among young people. Those are really daunting numbers that point to a need for increased services and intervention and advocacy.”
     

    https://centerforhealthjournalism.org/files/u98506/Screen%20Shot%202019-06-05%20at%203.50.23%20PM_0.png


    P.S., something like "well, my pimp said blah blah blah blah blah..." is not a source.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Are the racial dynamics of bullying similar to those for violent crime, ie mostly intraracial?

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Audacious Epigone Comments via RSS