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Free Speech for Racists and Commies
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Racists are the neo-liberal establishment’s biggest boogeymen. Communists are the right’s biggest boogeymen. Because the neo-liberal establishment has a lot more influence in the modern West than the right does, racists are the worst thing a person can be. Even in the midst of The Great Awokening, though, a majority of Americans oppose censoring them:

The racial/ethnic categories are mutually exclusive (ie whites are non-Jewish, American Indians are non-Hispanic, etc). To avoid language fluency issues, Wordsum buckets are restricted to survey respondents born in the US.

This characterization of racism is about as unflattering as it gets. Instead of asking about racism in general, let alone something sober like “do you believe human racial groups differ biologically on average?”, the framing concerns a hypothetical “person who believes blacks are genetically inferior”. This is a serious abstract test of tolerance for words one finds offensive.

Higher intelligence and having been born in the US are the two strongest indicators of support for free speech.

The same, this time for communists:

Tolerance of the two boogeymen together:

Note there is no group more accepting of free speech for racists than for communists. Those of modest intelligence come close but tolerance of communist speech is still marginally higher. The gaps are not the same, however, and they offer some insight into the cultural and political dynamics of the day:

If he were a racist, they’d be throwing rocks instead of fruit:

GSS variables used: YEAR(2010-2018), BORN, WORDSUM(0-4)(5-6)(7-10), RACEHISP, RACECEN1(3)(4-10), HISPANIC(1), RACEHISP, RELIG(1-2,4-13)(3), SEX, SPKRAC, SPKCOM, COHORT(1800-1945)(1946-1964)(1965-1979)(1980-2000)

 
• Category: Culture/Society, History, Ideology, Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Communism, GSS, Race 
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  1. WORDSUM high scorers đź‘Š

    Where can I find a WORDSUM test to take? I’ve seen a sample test (sans the correct answers) but never the real thing.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Anonymous

    See here.

  2. Thanks. This is a very interesting analysis. The four demographics with the greatest gap between “Racists” and “Communists” are Jews, Millennials, Asians, and Foreign Born–that doesn’t bode well for the future of the USA or of free society generally.

    There is a really serious educational issue with Communism. I am convinced that a lot of people, especially young people (as born out in the graphs), are mostly ignorant of what life under Communism was like. One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism. Even movies like “The Lives of Others” doesn’t really do enough to feature the oppression. I don’t know any movies about the Gulag or Maoist Thought Reform.

    • Disagree: Supply and Demand
    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Chrisnonymous


    young people (as born out in the graphs), are mostly ignorant of what life under Communism was like.
     
    One would think there are plenty of Cuban folks in Florida that could educate us how bad life under Communism was.

    Seems like an opportunity for DeSantis that Trump could quietly fund.

    It would lack the technocratic aspects of the model China is trying to impose on the world.

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Chrisnonymous

    It has almost nothing to do with education.

    The fact remains that the most racist, so to speak, symbol is Hitler, someone who exterminated Jews from most of Europe & the only man whose system gave a bloody nose - although he eventually lost - to the Western world & Britain.

    Western media world is obsessed with Jews & imperial West's good old times. Actually, nobody in the US, UK or any country west of Poland cares about the unspeakable suffering from, say, Krakow to Vladivostok & Peking/Beijing (except for Jews in the estaern Europe). No one.


    Western media world is all about Jews, Anglos, Dutch, Americans, Irish, Italians, French, Dutch, Scandinavians, .... and sometimes Germans.

    It doesn't give a hoot about Poles, Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Russians, Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Bengalis, Sinhalese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Cambodians, ...even Tibetans.

    So there you are.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    , @unit472
    @Chrisnonymous

    The only films that even touch on leftist totalitarianism were POW themed films mostly starring Chuck Norris or Sylvester Stallone. Of course the vast majority of prisoners in leftist totalitarian states were not POW but ordinary citizens of those countries. Mao had no POW at all and Stalin very few and none of them were American or allied soldiers.

    Give the enormity of the issue that Western film makers have avoided it cannot be by accident. It has to be intentional.

    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Chrisnonymous

    Yeah, quite the mystery as to why there are endless movies and education about Nazis and nothing about the Communists, especially the NKVD.

    It's almost like a small group of people want to influence how whites view history to promote white guilt while hiding their misdeeds.

    Replies: @anarchyst

    , @Rufus Clyde
    @Chrisnonymous

    I'd like to see more movies that accurately depict life under the Speculative-finance-driven corporatism to which the entire world outside the communist countries was subjected. The Soviet and Chinese systems were more or less closed, but the Great American system incorporated most of the third world. I find it interesting that you use Lifton's "thought reform" term. Lifton's work was one aspect of one of the more intriguing propaganda, or "thought reform" programs conducted on the US population. The US war machine used biological agents in the panic that ensued during the Korean war, when, yet again, US war chiefs totally underestimated their enemy. Downed US flyers copped to their war crimes, so a massive campaign to attribute the confessions to "brainwashing" ensued, with Lifton fully complicit. Equally fascinating is the manner in which the CIA rolled their phoney brainwash defence into their very real obfuscation of the true nature of MK Ultra.
    The Reds couldn't have dreamed of opressing their population in the manner in which the folks in the US were dominated psychologically by their masters.
    You're hilarious.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    , @J1234
    @Chrisnonymous


    One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism.
     
    I agree. There are a few movies that highlight the atrocities of Communism, but not nearly as many as history would warrant. I'd strongly suggest seeing The Way Back, starring Ed Harris, Jim Sturgess and a cast of (really good) eastern European actors I'm not familiar with. It's more of a prison escape movie than an in depth analysis of Stalin's brutality, but its powerful story line makes you acutely aware of just how infrequently the shocking theme of Communist oppression shows up in modern American movies.

    It's a true story, but The Way Back should be viewed more as a movie that was based on a true story. This is because there were some people who wrote fabricated accounts of the real event for personal financial gain or other reasons. As a result, the identities of those involved have been lost to history. It was directed by Peter Weir, who was deeply moved by the true events, and changed the names to fictional characters to avoid portraying history inaccurately.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYUqhuLdwRM

    Replies: @Nodwink

    , @Supply and Demand
    @Chrisnonymous

    Millennials have seen enough of the CCP through social media to know that they want it. Who needs movies (old, dead medium for desiccated boomers) when you have Tiktok?

    The alternative that is bearing itself out now: Judeo-Liberal Tyranny as envisioned by the founders just ain't that hot.

    , @anon
    @Chrisnonymous

    Note the date.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqG1uwhTX2o

    , @Three of Swords
    @Chrisnonymous

    RE: The Lives of Others, original German title, Das Leben der anderen

    You state that the movie doesn't do enough to feature the oppression by the Stasi in the former DDR. Well, it wasn't meant to really. The director and script author, Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck, recalled something he had read by Maxim Gorky about Lenin and the "Appassionata", and how music generally had a soothing affect on Lenin. So Henckel von Donnersmarck came up with the idea... On second thought, I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't seen the film.

    As for the movie itself, Ulrich MĂĽhe, who played the main character, Wiesler, in the film, stated in an interview that of all the attempts made then at portraying the DDR and the Stasi in film, and all the scripts he himself had read, Henckel von Donnersmarck's script was the first that wasn't exaggerated in its portrayal of the DDR/Stasi system and realistically depicted the characters.

    MĂĽhe was born and raised in the DDR.

    I highly recommend the film. The oppression and terror come through quite clearly in my opinion.

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @Chrisnonymous

    The Death of Stalin is an eccentric comedy-drama that incidentally depicts life in the Soviet Union as unambiguously horrific. Surprisingly, it was made in 2017.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9eAshaPvYw

  3. Just 67% of democrats support the right of communists to speak publicly? That doesn’t seem right…

  4. One notices that Jews (at 59 percent) tolerate racists almost as well as whites (at 64 percent) do, according to this survey.

    The low Hispanic figure (43 percent) is interesting.

    Younger respondents support free speech more, according to the survey. I don’t know what to make of that, but I see it. (Personally, I supported free speech in the abstract more when I was younger, but anecdotes do not illuminate this matter very well.)

    I hope that the survey is accurate.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @V. K. Ovelund


    One notices that Jews (at 59 percent) tolerate racists almost as well as whites (at 64 percent) do, according to this survey.
     
    Given the that Jews are famously high in verbal (Wordsum) intelligence, you would think that Jews ought to be coming in somewhere between Whites at 64 and High Wordsum at 70. Instead, they're way down at 59. Curious. Maybe the truth is that freedom of speech isn't really a Jewish value, as certain people have already noted.

    But then go down to the second chart, where the freedom of communists to speak is concerned, and suddenly Jewish support rockets up to a stratospheric 84! Curiouser. And recall that in the "free speech" era of the 1960s and 1970s, how prominent Jews were in the forefront of the "free speech movement". Curiouser and curiouser. [Never mind that the "free speech" in those days was mostly the freedom for smut and slander.]

    The mystery is of course solved by using a simple who-whom lens. When "communists" (disproportionately Jewish) speak, Jews are all about ze freedom. When "racists" (code for non-compliant gentiles) speak, Jews suddenly lose that former enthusiasm for freedom. Short version: Paul Gottfried was right.

    The third chart can be read as a gauge of who-whom-ism. Jews win. By a long shot. The least who-whom-ish are oldsters and Republicans (who are disproportionately white gentiles), followed closely by blacks. [I'm ignoring the Low Wordsum Scorers, who probably didn't understand the question.]

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

  5. @Chrisnonymous
    Thanks. This is a very interesting analysis. The four demographics with the greatest gap between "Racists" and "Communists" are Jews, Millennials, Asians, and Foreign Born--that doesn't bode well for the future of the USA or of free society generally.

    There is a really serious educational issue with Communism. I am convinced that a lot of people, especially young people (as born out in the graphs), are mostly ignorant of what life under Communism was like. One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism. Even movies like "The Lives of Others" doesn't really do enough to feature the oppression. I don't know any movies about the Gulag or Maoist Thought Reform.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Bardon Kaldian, @unit472, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Rufus Clyde, @J1234, @Supply and Demand, @anon, @Three of Swords, @Audacious Epigone

    young people (as born out in the graphs), are mostly ignorant of what life under Communism was like.

    One would think there are plenty of Cuban folks in Florida that could educate us how bad life under Communism was.

    Seems like an opportunity for DeSantis that Trump could quietly fund.

    It would lack the technocratic aspects of the model China is trying to impose on the world.

  6. While the results presented here are good news for supporters of free speech, it should be kept in mind that some of the people who claim to support it would probably also agree with the statement “freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.” The fact that they claim to support free speech in principle does not necessarily mean that they would support it in practice.

    As an example, a Gallup/Knight Foundation poll last year found that the overwhelming majority of respondents agreed with the statement “people should be able to freely express their views on social media, including views that are offensive.” However, the same poll found that 81% of people thought that social media companies should never allow “intentionally misleading information on election and political issues” to be posted on their sites and 64% thought that “hate speech” should never be allowed. And these are the percentages that thought that such speech should never be allowed. An even larger percentage thought that these types of speech should be censored in certain cases.

    https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/new-report-looks-at-how-people-feel-about-online-censorship-and-who-should/579935/

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Indiana Jack


    However, the same poll found that 81% of people thought that social media companies should never allow “intentionally misleading information on election and political issues” to be posted on their sites and 64% thought that “hate speech” should never be allowed.
     
    Yep. When people say they support free speech they don't mean that they actually support free speech. They don't actually mean that they support free speech for people with whom they disagree.

    In practice very few people believe in freedom of speech. But they don't like to admit that they don't believe in freedom of speech.
  7. @Indiana Jack
    While the results presented here are good news for supporters of free speech, it should be kept in mind that some of the people who claim to support it would probably also agree with the statement "freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences." The fact that they claim to support free speech in principle does not necessarily mean that they would support it in practice.

    As an example, a Gallup/Knight Foundation poll last year found that the overwhelming majority of respondents agreed with the statement "people should be able to freely express their views on social media, including views that are offensive." However, the same poll found that 81% of people thought that social media companies should never allow "intentionally misleading information on election and political issues" to be posted on their sites and 64% thought that "hate speech" should never be allowed. And these are the percentages that thought that such speech should never be allowed. An even larger percentage thought that these types of speech should be censored in certain cases.

    https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/new-report-looks-at-how-people-feel-about-online-censorship-and-who-should/579935/

    Replies: @dfordoom

    However, the same poll found that 81% of people thought that social media companies should never allow “intentionally misleading information on election and political issues” to be posted on their sites and 64% thought that “hate speech” should never be allowed.

    Yep. When people say they support free speech they don’t mean that they actually support free speech. They don’t actually mean that they support free speech for people with whom they disagree.

    In practice very few people believe in freedom of speech. But they don’t like to admit that they don’t believe in freedom of speech.

  8. @Chrisnonymous
    Thanks. This is a very interesting analysis. The four demographics with the greatest gap between "Racists" and "Communists" are Jews, Millennials, Asians, and Foreign Born--that doesn't bode well for the future of the USA or of free society generally.

    There is a really serious educational issue with Communism. I am convinced that a lot of people, especially young people (as born out in the graphs), are mostly ignorant of what life under Communism was like. One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism. Even movies like "The Lives of Others" doesn't really do enough to feature the oppression. I don't know any movies about the Gulag or Maoist Thought Reform.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Bardon Kaldian, @unit472, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Rufus Clyde, @J1234, @Supply and Demand, @anon, @Three of Swords, @Audacious Epigone

    It has almost nothing to do with education.

    The fact remains that the most racist, so to speak, symbol is Hitler, someone who exterminated Jews from most of Europe & the only man whose system gave a bloody nose – although he eventually lost – to the Western world & Britain.

    Western media world is obsessed with Jews & imperial West’s good old times. Actually, nobody in the US, UK or any country west of Poland cares about the unspeakable suffering from, say, Krakow to Vladivostok & Peking/Beijing (except for Jews in the estaern Europe). No one.

    Western media world is all about Jews, Anglos, Dutch, Americans, Irish, Italians, French, Dutch, Scandinavians, …. and sometimes Germans.

    It doesn’t give a hoot about Poles, Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Russians, Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Bengalis, Sinhalese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Cambodians, …even Tibetans.

    So there you are.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Bardon Kaldian

    There's a lot of truth in what you say. However, during the Cold War with the USSR, there was some attempt to educate people about the experience of the Soviet system by people on the right. The hated neocons and Buckleyite conservatives promoted some literature on the topic. But since the 1990s, this promotion has mostly disappeared, even on the right. Rod Dreher has a new book out that touches on the subject, but I daresay the number of people under the age of 35 who identify as conservative and have been recommended or exposed to any literature about life under Communism is exceedingly small.

    Replies: @Mark G., @nebulafox

  9. @Chrisnonymous
    Thanks. This is a very interesting analysis. The four demographics with the greatest gap between "Racists" and "Communists" are Jews, Millennials, Asians, and Foreign Born--that doesn't bode well for the future of the USA or of free society generally.

    There is a really serious educational issue with Communism. I am convinced that a lot of people, especially young people (as born out in the graphs), are mostly ignorant of what life under Communism was like. One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism. Even movies like "The Lives of Others" doesn't really do enough to feature the oppression. I don't know any movies about the Gulag or Maoist Thought Reform.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Bardon Kaldian, @unit472, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Rufus Clyde, @J1234, @Supply and Demand, @anon, @Three of Swords, @Audacious Epigone

    The only films that even touch on leftist totalitarianism were POW themed films mostly starring Chuck Norris or Sylvester Stallone. Of course the vast majority of prisoners in leftist totalitarian states were not POW but ordinary citizens of those countries. Mao had no POW at all and Stalin very few and none of them were American or allied soldiers.

    Give the enormity of the issue that Western film makers have avoided it cannot be by accident. It has to be intentional.

  10. I think the phrase “speak publicly” is kind of ambiguous.

    To some people, it might mean being allowed to speak in a park, while having the crowd videotaped, but not really in other social circumstances, or using some kind of platform.

  11. @Chrisnonymous
    Thanks. This is a very interesting analysis. The four demographics with the greatest gap between "Racists" and "Communists" are Jews, Millennials, Asians, and Foreign Born--that doesn't bode well for the future of the USA or of free society generally.

    There is a really serious educational issue with Communism. I am convinced that a lot of people, especially young people (as born out in the graphs), are mostly ignorant of what life under Communism was like. One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism. Even movies like "The Lives of Others" doesn't really do enough to feature the oppression. I don't know any movies about the Gulag or Maoist Thought Reform.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Bardon Kaldian, @unit472, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Rufus Clyde, @J1234, @Supply and Demand, @anon, @Three of Swords, @Audacious Epigone

    Yeah, quite the mystery as to why there are endless movies and education about Nazis and nothing about the Communists, especially the NKVD.

    It’s almost like a small group of people want to influence how whites view history to promote white guilt while hiding their misdeeds.

    • Agree: Richard B
    • Replies: @anarchyst
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    No mystery at all...
    Most jews espouse and promote communism as ((they)) ARE the inventors of that vile dehumanizing system.
    Hollywood, being run by jews is loathe to expose itself as promoters and purveyors of communism.
    If anything, jews will romanticize communism with movies such as "Reds" and "Dr. Zhivago".

  12. @Chrisnonymous
    Thanks. This is a very interesting analysis. The four demographics with the greatest gap between "Racists" and "Communists" are Jews, Millennials, Asians, and Foreign Born--that doesn't bode well for the future of the USA or of free society generally.

    There is a really serious educational issue with Communism. I am convinced that a lot of people, especially young people (as born out in the graphs), are mostly ignorant of what life under Communism was like. One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism. Even movies like "The Lives of Others" doesn't really do enough to feature the oppression. I don't know any movies about the Gulag or Maoist Thought Reform.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Bardon Kaldian, @unit472, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Rufus Clyde, @J1234, @Supply and Demand, @anon, @Three of Swords, @Audacious Epigone

    I’d like to see more movies that accurately depict life under the Speculative-finance-driven corporatism to which the entire world outside the communist countries was subjected. The Soviet and Chinese systems were more or less closed, but the Great American system incorporated most of the third world. I find it interesting that you use Lifton’s “thought reform” term. Lifton’s work was one aspect of one of the more intriguing propaganda, or “thought reform” programs conducted on the US population. The US war machine used biological agents in the panic that ensued during the Korean war, when, yet again, US war chiefs totally underestimated their enemy. Downed US flyers copped to their war crimes, so a massive campaign to attribute the confessions to “brainwashing” ensued, with Lifton fully complicit. Equally fascinating is the manner in which the CIA rolled their phoney brainwash defence into their very real obfuscation of the true nature of MK Ultra.
    The Reds couldn’t have dreamed of opressing their population in the manner in which the folks in the US were dominated psychologically by their masters.
    You’re hilarious.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Rufus Clyde

    That Communists in the Soviet Union and China extracted outrageously false confessions from a variety of people--both their own people and foreigners--is not in doubt. This is quite separate from the question of US biological warfare in the early Cold War. While Lifton's work may have been used in a US propaganda campaign, it can still have value to us in its detailed description of what the experience of thought reform in China was like for individuals, unless you doubt the veracity of any of the accounts in Lifton's work, much of which was not with POWs but with foreign expats caught up in the Revolution in China. The history of Lifton's psychiatric work and activism in its totality does not lead me to think he was simply making things up for the US gov't even if his work was used to falsely discredit accusations against it.

    Interestingly, this ex-Antifa member claims that she started being deprogramed from Antifa in part by recognizing how her interactions with other Antifa paralleled the techniques used in Chinese thought reform as described in Lifton's work...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qesP3DORkt0

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde

  13. Perhaps I have overestimated the size of the slice of population made up of high-wordsum-scoring white male republicans who support the right of racists to speak freely while opposing that right for communists…

  14. @Chrisnonymous
    Thanks. This is a very interesting analysis. The four demographics with the greatest gap between "Racists" and "Communists" are Jews, Millennials, Asians, and Foreign Born--that doesn't bode well for the future of the USA or of free society generally.

    There is a really serious educational issue with Communism. I am convinced that a lot of people, especially young people (as born out in the graphs), are mostly ignorant of what life under Communism was like. One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism. Even movies like "The Lives of Others" doesn't really do enough to feature the oppression. I don't know any movies about the Gulag or Maoist Thought Reform.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Bardon Kaldian, @unit472, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Rufus Clyde, @J1234, @Supply and Demand, @anon, @Three of Swords, @Audacious Epigone

    One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism.

    I agree. There are a few movies that highlight the atrocities of Communism, but not nearly as many as history would warrant. I’d strongly suggest seeing The Way Back, starring Ed Harris, Jim Sturgess and a cast of (really good) eastern European actors I’m not familiar with. It’s more of a prison escape movie than an in depth analysis of Stalin’s brutality, but its powerful story line makes you acutely aware of just how infrequently the shocking theme of Communist oppression shows up in modern American movies.

    It’s a true story, but The Way Back should be viewed more as a movie that was based on a true story. This is because there were some people who wrote fabricated accounts of the real event for personal financial gain or other reasons. As a result, the identities of those involved have been lost to history. It was directed by Peter Weir, who was deeply moved by the true events, and changed the names to fictional characters to avoid portraying history inaccurately.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @Nodwink
    @J1234

    Weir is one of the world's great filmmakers, he is respected but I don't think he is appreciated enough. Gallipoli is probably my favourite movie.

  15. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Chrisnonymous

    Yeah, quite the mystery as to why there are endless movies and education about Nazis and nothing about the Communists, especially the NKVD.

    It's almost like a small group of people want to influence how whites view history to promote white guilt while hiding their misdeeds.

    Replies: @anarchyst

    No mystery at all…
    Most jews espouse and promote communism as ((they)) ARE the inventors of that vile dehumanizing system.
    Hollywood, being run by jews is loathe to expose itself as promoters and purveyors of communism.
    If anything, jews will romanticize communism with movies such as “Reds” and “Dr. Zhivago”.

  16. @Chrisnonymous
    Thanks. This is a very interesting analysis. The four demographics with the greatest gap between "Racists" and "Communists" are Jews, Millennials, Asians, and Foreign Born--that doesn't bode well for the future of the USA or of free society generally.

    There is a really serious educational issue with Communism. I am convinced that a lot of people, especially young people (as born out in the graphs), are mostly ignorant of what life under Communism was like. One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism. Even movies like "The Lives of Others" doesn't really do enough to feature the oppression. I don't know any movies about the Gulag or Maoist Thought Reform.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Bardon Kaldian, @unit472, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Rufus Clyde, @J1234, @Supply and Demand, @anon, @Three of Swords, @Audacious Epigone

    Millennials have seen enough of the CCP through social media to know that they want it. Who needs movies (old, dead medium for desiccated boomers) when you have Tiktok?

    The alternative that is bearing itself out now: Judeo-Liberal Tyranny as envisioned by the founders just ain’t that hot.

    • LOL: Chrisnonymous
  17. @V. K. Ovelund
    One notices that Jews (at 59 percent) tolerate racists almost as well as whites (at 64 percent) do, according to this survey.

    The low Hispanic figure (43 percent) is interesting.

    Younger respondents support free speech more, according to the survey. I don't know what to make of that, but I see it. (Personally, I supported free speech in the abstract more when I was younger, but anecdotes do not illuminate this matter very well.)

    I hope that the survey is accurate.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    One notices that Jews (at 59 percent) tolerate racists almost as well as whites (at 64 percent) do, according to this survey.

    Given the that Jews are famously high in verbal (Wordsum) intelligence, you would think that Jews ought to be coming in somewhere between Whites at 64 and High Wordsum at 70. Instead, they’re way down at 59. Curious. Maybe the truth is that freedom of speech isn’t really a Jewish value, as certain people have already noted.

    But then go down to the second chart, where the freedom of communists to speak is concerned, and suddenly Jewish support rockets up to a stratospheric 84! Curiouser. And recall that in the “free speech” era of the 1960s and 1970s, how prominent Jews were in the forefront of the “free speech movement”. Curiouser and curiouser. [Never mind that the “free speech” in those days was mostly the freedom for smut and slander.]

    The mystery is of course solved by using a simple who-whom lens. When “communists” (disproportionately Jewish) speak, Jews are all about ze freedom. When “racists” (code for non-compliant gentiles) speak, Jews suddenly lose that former enthusiasm for freedom. Short version: Paul Gottfried was right.

    The third chart can be read as a gauge of who-whom-ism. Jews win. By a long shot. The least who-whom-ish are oldsters and Republicans (who are disproportionately white gentiles), followed closely by blacks. [I’m ignoring the Low Wordsum Scorers, who probably didn’t understand the question.]

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Almost Missouri


    Given the that Jews are famously high in verbal (Wordsum) intelligence, you would think that Jews ought to be coming in somewhere between Whites at 64 and High Wordsum at 70. Instead, they’re way down at 59. Curious.
     
    Yes.

    Admittedly, I am trying not to be all anti-Semitic, all the time. The blogger and other respected persons here have repeatedly asked me to take a more balanced view, so I am trying.

    And although I avoid my Jewish friends these days because I don't want the awkward topic to come up, I almost certainly have more, and closer, Jewish friends than most persons in this thread do. I slept in the same room with a Jew for two years in college: great guy. (In those days, few college students had PCs, but he had one: he let me do hundreds of hours of schoolwork on it, whether convenient for him or not. And he wasn't the only Jew who treated me right. And then there's my father, who had some pretty good experiences with two or three Jews who are now deceased.) So I have some personal reasons to find kind words for Jews when I can.

    But, yeah, my pro-Semitic read of the poll was a stretch.

  18. @Chrisnonymous
    Thanks. This is a very interesting analysis. The four demographics with the greatest gap between "Racists" and "Communists" are Jews, Millennials, Asians, and Foreign Born--that doesn't bode well for the future of the USA or of free society generally.

    There is a really serious educational issue with Communism. I am convinced that a lot of people, especially young people (as born out in the graphs), are mostly ignorant of what life under Communism was like. One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism. Even movies like "The Lives of Others" doesn't really do enough to feature the oppression. I don't know any movies about the Gulag or Maoist Thought Reform.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Bardon Kaldian, @unit472, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Rufus Clyde, @J1234, @Supply and Demand, @anon, @Three of Swords, @Audacious Epigone

    Note the date.

  19. @Rufus Clyde
    @Chrisnonymous

    I'd like to see more movies that accurately depict life under the Speculative-finance-driven corporatism to which the entire world outside the communist countries was subjected. The Soviet and Chinese systems were more or less closed, but the Great American system incorporated most of the third world. I find it interesting that you use Lifton's "thought reform" term. Lifton's work was one aspect of one of the more intriguing propaganda, or "thought reform" programs conducted on the US population. The US war machine used biological agents in the panic that ensued during the Korean war, when, yet again, US war chiefs totally underestimated their enemy. Downed US flyers copped to their war crimes, so a massive campaign to attribute the confessions to "brainwashing" ensued, with Lifton fully complicit. Equally fascinating is the manner in which the CIA rolled their phoney brainwash defence into their very real obfuscation of the true nature of MK Ultra.
    The Reds couldn't have dreamed of opressing their population in the manner in which the folks in the US were dominated psychologically by their masters.
    You're hilarious.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    That Communists in the Soviet Union and China extracted outrageously false confessions from a variety of people–both their own people and foreigners–is not in doubt. This is quite separate from the question of US biological warfare in the early Cold War. While Lifton’s work may have been used in a US propaganda campaign, it can still have value to us in its detailed description of what the experience of thought reform in China was like for individuals, unless you doubt the veracity of any of the accounts in Lifton’s work, much of which was not with POWs but with foreign expats caught up in the Revolution in China. The history of Lifton’s psychiatric work and activism in its totality does not lead me to think he was simply making things up for the US gov’t even if his work was used to falsely discredit accusations against it.

    Interestingly, this ex-Antifa member claims that she started being deprogramed from Antifa in part by recognizing how her interactions with other Antifa paralleled the techniques used in Chinese thought reform as described in Lifton’s work…

    • Replies: @Rufus Clyde
    @Chrisnonymous

    Unfortunately, with regard to your claim about the Reds extracting false confesssion, you have mistaken your opinion, or sentiments, for a conclusion based on evidence.
    Lifton's work has merit and the techniques he describes as "totalist" have been used by all manner of American charlatans, one glaring example being people associated with the GOP in the phoney War on Drugs.
    http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/2011%20Marcus%20Chatfield.pdf

    There is significant evidence to support the conclusion that the confessions made by US flyers during the campaign of US war crimes on the Korean peninsula in the 1950-53 period were bona fide.

    Curious that you completely ignore the totalist coercion techniques used by a wide array of US government entities in an unrelenting program of social control, and remain fixated on the wicked Commies. As I said, in four hundred years the Reds couldn't have mustered a totalist thought reform program to rival that used on the US population by the US government.

    Cool story about Antifa, bro. If that's not a modern-day Cointelpro or Operation Chaos abomination, I'll buy some of your Amway shampoo.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @nebulafox

  20. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Chrisnonymous

    It has almost nothing to do with education.

    The fact remains that the most racist, so to speak, symbol is Hitler, someone who exterminated Jews from most of Europe & the only man whose system gave a bloody nose - although he eventually lost - to the Western world & Britain.

    Western media world is obsessed with Jews & imperial West's good old times. Actually, nobody in the US, UK or any country west of Poland cares about the unspeakable suffering from, say, Krakow to Vladivostok & Peking/Beijing (except for Jews in the estaern Europe). No one.


    Western media world is all about Jews, Anglos, Dutch, Americans, Irish, Italians, French, Dutch, Scandinavians, .... and sometimes Germans.

    It doesn't give a hoot about Poles, Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Russians, Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Bengalis, Sinhalese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Cambodians, ...even Tibetans.

    So there you are.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    There’s a lot of truth in what you say. However, during the Cold War with the USSR, there was some attempt to educate people about the experience of the Soviet system by people on the right. The hated neocons and Buckleyite conservatives promoted some literature on the topic. But since the 1990s, this promotion has mostly disappeared, even on the right. Rod Dreher has a new book out that touches on the subject, but I daresay the number of people under the age of 35 who identify as conservative and have been recommended or exposed to any literature about life under Communism is exceedingly small.

    • Replies: @Mark G.
    @Chrisnonymous


    The hated neocons and Buckleyite conservatives promoted some literature on the topic. But since the 1990s, this promotion has mostly disappeared, even on the right.
     
    Opposition to Communism was what held the conservative movement together so anti-Communist literature was emphasized. The traditionalists saw the Communists as Godless atheists, the libertarians saw them as anti-Capitalist, and the neocons saw them as a military menace. The collapse of the Soviet Union meant anti-Communism couldn't be used as the glue holding the conservative movement together so it ceased to serve a function. The neocons tried to replace the Communist menace with the Muslim menace but the libertarians and traditionalists weren't as eager to jump on board that train. They both realized Washington D.C. is a bigger threat to the country than Iraq or, these days, Iran.
    , @nebulafox
    @Chrisnonymous

    Speaking as someone born after the Cold War: it's just not relevant to our life experience. The closest you'll get are the American born kids or grandkids of people who fled Communist countries, but even that's not really a living flesh example. Most of them have long since switched to a market economy, China and Vietnam as much as the old Warsaw Pact and USSR. It's also not relevant to the current realities of most Americans who remember those times, hence why the GOP Establishment's efforts to try and reverse the clock are futile.

    Of course, this is largely even more the case for WWII and the Holocaust: leaving aside the fact that the actual darkest horrors of Nazi Germany rarely visit the popular imagination (Generalplan Ost) and that flicks make mountains out of molehills with the "resistance" in the countries they focus on (German occupation authorities generally relied off of local structures in Western Europe and were only forced out by external military pressure).

    I think the difference in treatment between the two doesn't just reflect the ideological fixations of American mainstream pop culture, but the desire of many people to want to imagine that they themselves are the freedom fighters of the age, fighting against fascism or at least the new Bull Connors-however ridiculous that is. Why that is so is a discussion for another thread. But it's funny that back in the 1960s, where there were a lot of Americans who had Auschwitz tattoos and Nazi war criminals were on the lam, there was a lot less ritualistic obsession over the topic. I have never been to Israel, so I'm happy to defer to someone who has more familiarity with the place, but near as I can tell Israel also lacks that obsession, despite being-literally-a state born of genocide.

    (You think that declining Rome peddled Punic War nostalgia similar to how modern Hollywood cannot seem to think of history before 1939? It's part of why I'm an increasing fan of classical education, despite my STEM background. They provide alternative moral stories and lessons to a mainstream culture that is increasingly unimaginative and repetitive.)

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde, @dfordoom, @Chrisnonymous

  21. What is a Racist? What is a Communist?

    I would like to see the response to:

    Should White people be allowed to vote?
    Should White people be allowed to speak?
    Should black people be allowed to burn buildings?
    Should Communists be allowed to burn buildings?

  22. Free speach is for everybody or nobody. You can be for it or against it.

  23. @Chrisnonymous
    @Bardon Kaldian

    There's a lot of truth in what you say. However, during the Cold War with the USSR, there was some attempt to educate people about the experience of the Soviet system by people on the right. The hated neocons and Buckleyite conservatives promoted some literature on the topic. But since the 1990s, this promotion has mostly disappeared, even on the right. Rod Dreher has a new book out that touches on the subject, but I daresay the number of people under the age of 35 who identify as conservative and have been recommended or exposed to any literature about life under Communism is exceedingly small.

    Replies: @Mark G., @nebulafox

    The hated neocons and Buckleyite conservatives promoted some literature on the topic. But since the 1990s, this promotion has mostly disappeared, even on the right.

    Opposition to Communism was what held the conservative movement together so anti-Communist literature was emphasized. The traditionalists saw the Communists as Godless atheists, the libertarians saw them as anti-Capitalist, and the neocons saw them as a military menace. The collapse of the Soviet Union meant anti-Communism couldn’t be used as the glue holding the conservative movement together so it ceased to serve a function. The neocons tried to replace the Communist menace with the Muslim menace but the libertarians and traditionalists weren’t as eager to jump on board that train. They both realized Washington D.C. is a bigger threat to the country than Iraq or, these days, Iran.

  24. Blacks are significantly more anti-communist than whites are? Enough to make their gap smaller.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Reg Cæsar

    When I was a university instructor, I taught a couple thousand undergraduates born after the Berlin Wall fell, so I have had some interaction with the younger generation.

    Words like Communism convey little meaning to them.

    Trying to cause them to experience the visceral fear our generation felt of Soviet missiles is like trying to cause us to experience the visceral fear an earlier generation felt of Carthaginian elephants. Unfortunately, it does not work.

    I mention this as a roundabout way of pointing out that some, perhaps many, of the present survey's respondents probably don't understand the question.

    Replies: @Wyatt, @Rufus Clyde, @dfordoom

  25. @Chrisnonymous
    Thanks. This is a very interesting analysis. The four demographics with the greatest gap between "Racists" and "Communists" are Jews, Millennials, Asians, and Foreign Born--that doesn't bode well for the future of the USA or of free society generally.

    There is a really serious educational issue with Communism. I am convinced that a lot of people, especially young people (as born out in the graphs), are mostly ignorant of what life under Communism was like. One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism. Even movies like "The Lives of Others" doesn't really do enough to feature the oppression. I don't know any movies about the Gulag or Maoist Thought Reform.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Bardon Kaldian, @unit472, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Rufus Clyde, @J1234, @Supply and Demand, @anon, @Three of Swords, @Audacious Epigone

    RE: The Lives of Others, original German title, Das Leben der anderen

    You state that the movie doesn’t do enough to feature the oppression by the Stasi in the former DDR. Well, it wasn’t meant to really. The director and script author, Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck, recalled something he had read by Maxim Gorky about Lenin and the “Appassionata”, and how music generally had a soothing affect on Lenin. So Henckel von Donnersmarck came up with the idea… On second thought, I don’t want to spoil it for those who haven’t seen the film.

    As for the movie itself, Ulrich MĂĽhe, who played the main character, Wiesler, in the film, stated in an interview that of all the attempts made then at portraying the DDR and the Stasi in film, and all the scripts he himself had read, Henckel von Donnersmarck’s script was the first that wasn’t exaggerated in its portrayal of the DDR/Stasi system and realistically depicted the characters.

    MĂĽhe was born and raised in the DDR.

    I highly recommend the film. The oppression and terror come through quite clearly in my opinion.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
  26. @J1234
    @Chrisnonymous


    One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism.
     
    I agree. There are a few movies that highlight the atrocities of Communism, but not nearly as many as history would warrant. I'd strongly suggest seeing The Way Back, starring Ed Harris, Jim Sturgess and a cast of (really good) eastern European actors I'm not familiar with. It's more of a prison escape movie than an in depth analysis of Stalin's brutality, but its powerful story line makes you acutely aware of just how infrequently the shocking theme of Communist oppression shows up in modern American movies.

    It's a true story, but The Way Back should be viewed more as a movie that was based on a true story. This is because there were some people who wrote fabricated accounts of the real event for personal financial gain or other reasons. As a result, the identities of those involved have been lost to history. It was directed by Peter Weir, who was deeply moved by the true events, and changed the names to fictional characters to avoid portraying history inaccurately.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYUqhuLdwRM

    Replies: @Nodwink

    Weir is one of the world’s great filmmakers, he is respected but I don’t think he is appreciated enough. Gallipoli is probably my favourite movie.

  27. @Reg Cæsar
    Blacks are significantly more anti-communist than whites are? Enough to make their gap smaller.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    When I was a university instructor, I taught a couple thousand undergraduates born after the Berlin Wall fell, so I have had some interaction with the younger generation.

    Words like Communism convey little meaning to them.

    Trying to cause them to experience the visceral fear our generation felt of Soviet missiles is like trying to cause us to experience the visceral fear an earlier generation felt of Carthaginian elephants. Unfortunately, it does not work.

    I mention this as a roundabout way of pointing out that some, perhaps many, of the present survey’s respondents probably don’t understand the question.

    • Replies: @Wyatt
    @V. K. Ovelund

    We're also in the Weimar period. The youth have nothing to look forward to and, even worse, they're dumb as hell. Communism has great appeal to the disenfranchised and those that think they're intelligent. With no future ahead of them, the youth of today are very motivated to seize wealth if they cannot generate themselves.

    However, since Communism is an abstract ideology with more than one step, there's a minimum degree of intelligence necessary needed to pretend to understand it. So you get a bunch of purposefully stupid white kids who have a positive opinion of Marxism/Socialism/Communism, but a dearth of average (85 IQ) blacks who neither can nor pretend to understand the ideologies. That might also explain the skew. If you were to measure the openly Marxist black BLM leaders, I'd venture a guess they're smarter than the average black. Smarter being a nominal term in this case, of course.

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde

    , @Rufus Clyde
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Why such visceral fear of Soviet missiles? The US had a first-strike policy, the Soviets did not. The US actually nuked two cities, the Soviets did not. There is no historical precedent for the numbers killed as a result of US aerial bombardment, whether directly or from resulting collapses in infrastructure. My great uncle was part of the Allied occupation and attempted colonization of Siberia after the First World War. You won't find a single Russian who can accurately claim that one of his relations was involved in a similar campaign in the United States conducted by the Soviets.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Wency, @V. K. Ovelund

    , @dfordoom
    @V. K. Ovelund


    Trying to cause them to experience the visceral fear our generation felt of Soviet missiles is like trying to cause us to experience the visceral fear an earlier generation felt of Carthaginian elephants. Unfortunately, it does not work.
     
    Yes. And communism is no longer a threat. Trying to make people afraid of the communist menace is about as useful as trying to make them afraid of the Bonapartist menace.

    There are real threats we need to worry about. Wokeism, SJWism, neo-liberalism, neocons, the unholy (and fascistic) alliance between big government and big business - these are real threats. These are things we should be afraid of.

    Communism is as dead as Bonapartism.
  28. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Reg Cæsar

    When I was a university instructor, I taught a couple thousand undergraduates born after the Berlin Wall fell, so I have had some interaction with the younger generation.

    Words like Communism convey little meaning to them.

    Trying to cause them to experience the visceral fear our generation felt of Soviet missiles is like trying to cause us to experience the visceral fear an earlier generation felt of Carthaginian elephants. Unfortunately, it does not work.

    I mention this as a roundabout way of pointing out that some, perhaps many, of the present survey's respondents probably don't understand the question.

    Replies: @Wyatt, @Rufus Clyde, @dfordoom

    We’re also in the Weimar period. The youth have nothing to look forward to and, even worse, they’re dumb as hell. Communism has great appeal to the disenfranchised and those that think they’re intelligent. With no future ahead of them, the youth of today are very motivated to seize wealth if they cannot generate themselves.

    However, since Communism is an abstract ideology with more than one step, there’s a minimum degree of intelligence necessary needed to pretend to understand it. So you get a bunch of purposefully stupid white kids who have a positive opinion of Marxism/Socialism/Communism, but a dearth of average (85 IQ) blacks who neither can nor pretend to understand the ideologies. That might also explain the skew. If you were to measure the openly Marxist black BLM leaders, I’d venture a guess they’re smarter than the average black. Smarter being a nominal term in this case, of course.

    • Replies: @Rufus Clyde
    @Wyatt

    Do you think that you're intelligent? Capitalism is literally the act of seizing wealth from other people.

    Replies: @Wyatt

  29. @Chrisnonymous
    @Bardon Kaldian

    There's a lot of truth in what you say. However, during the Cold War with the USSR, there was some attempt to educate people about the experience of the Soviet system by people on the right. The hated neocons and Buckleyite conservatives promoted some literature on the topic. But since the 1990s, this promotion has mostly disappeared, even on the right. Rod Dreher has a new book out that touches on the subject, but I daresay the number of people under the age of 35 who identify as conservative and have been recommended or exposed to any literature about life under Communism is exceedingly small.

    Replies: @Mark G., @nebulafox

    Speaking as someone born after the Cold War: it’s just not relevant to our life experience. The closest you’ll get are the American born kids or grandkids of people who fled Communist countries, but even that’s not really a living flesh example. Most of them have long since switched to a market economy, China and Vietnam as much as the old Warsaw Pact and USSR. It’s also not relevant to the current realities of most Americans who remember those times, hence why the GOP Establishment’s efforts to try and reverse the clock are futile.

    Of course, this is largely even more the case for WWII and the Holocaust: leaving aside the fact that the actual darkest horrors of Nazi Germany rarely visit the popular imagination (Generalplan Ost) and that flicks make mountains out of molehills with the “resistance” in the countries they focus on (German occupation authorities generally relied off of local structures in Western Europe and were only forced out by external military pressure).

    I think the difference in treatment between the two doesn’t just reflect the ideological fixations of American mainstream pop culture, but the desire of many people to want to imagine that they themselves are the freedom fighters of the age, fighting against fascism or at least the new Bull Connors-however ridiculous that is. Why that is so is a discussion for another thread. But it’s funny that back in the 1960s, where there were a lot of Americans who had Auschwitz tattoos and Nazi war criminals were on the lam, there was a lot less ritualistic obsession over the topic. I have never been to Israel, so I’m happy to defer to someone who has more familiarity with the place, but near as I can tell Israel also lacks that obsession, despite being-literally-a state born of genocide.

    (You think that declining Rome peddled Punic War nostalgia similar to how modern Hollywood cannot seem to think of history before 1939? It’s part of why I’m an increasing fan of classical education, despite my STEM background. They provide alternative moral stories and lessons to a mainstream culture that is increasingly unimaginative and repetitive.)

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Rufus Clyde
    @nebulafox

    "I have never been to Israel, so I’m happy to defer to someone who has more familiarity with the place, but near as I can tell Israel also lacks that obsession, despite being-literally-a state born of genocide."
    That was a real knee-slapper.
    https://watchdocumentaries.com/defamation/

    , @dfordoom
    @nebulafox


    Speaking as someone born after the Cold War: it’s just not relevant to our life experience.
     
    I agree. And speaking as someone who lived during the Cold War, the communist menace is just not relevant to me either.

    The obsession with commies is mostly a thing for ageing dinosaurs who want to endlessly refight the political battles of sixty or seventy years ago.
    , @Chrisnonymous
    @nebulafox


    it’s just not relevant to our life experience. ...the GOP Establishment’s efforts to try and reverse the clock...

    ...the difference in treatment between the two doesn’t just reflect the ideological fixations of American mainstream pop culture, but the desire of many people to want to imagine that they themselves are the freedom fighters of the age, fighting against fascism
     
    I agree that many that many young Americans live in a Nazi-punching fantasy. This reflects the left's ability to keep the clock constantly reversed to WWII. But actually the psychological state induced is a failure of education. Rather than learning to approach history from the standpoint of useful insight, they learn emotional reactions, which are ramped to fever pitch by teachers and pop culture icons, who project onto current politics.

    However, this failure or misuse of education doesn't mean that learning about mid-century fascism is a mistake. This is a period in history that young people need to know about. The same is true of the Communism, and in fact if history were taught to young people well, they would see all the varieties of mid-century totalitarian utopianism across the globe and the ways they failed and mistreated people as equally disturbing even if not exactly the same.

    You are right to be derisive of the GOPe trying to use the epithet of Communist to drum up support against, eg, Obama only to the extent that it is a mirror of the Democrats recurrent claims that the Republicans are Hitler--based less in facts and analysis than ignorance, thinking-in-labels, and factionalist emoting. However, being derisive of referencing Communism because it's no longer relevant is a not a correction of the GOPe's strategy, but a feature of the failed educations many young people have and another reflection of the social phenomenons that AE is drawing attention to in his post.

    The experiences of people who lived under mid-century totalist regimes are relevant today as warnings against the totalist and utopian viewpoints influencing our politics today. These include the rising international influence of the PRC but also the "end of history" utopianism of the establishment West. Moreover, big-c Communism is directly relevant for just the reason that it is not known and not feared and continues, contrary to what you seem to think, to have direct relevance to the present inasmuch as it is accepted as an aspirational ideal by people in "the cathedral".

    I do not think raising the spectre of Communism is at all cringe as long as it is not name-calling and instead focused on recalling the threats from organizing society in ways that require centralization, unity, and reform and direction of behavior. There are other kinds of death than in gas chambers,and not all are deaths of the body.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  30. @Chrisnonymous
    @Rufus Clyde

    That Communists in the Soviet Union and China extracted outrageously false confessions from a variety of people--both their own people and foreigners--is not in doubt. This is quite separate from the question of US biological warfare in the early Cold War. While Lifton's work may have been used in a US propaganda campaign, it can still have value to us in its detailed description of what the experience of thought reform in China was like for individuals, unless you doubt the veracity of any of the accounts in Lifton's work, much of which was not with POWs but with foreign expats caught up in the Revolution in China. The history of Lifton's psychiatric work and activism in its totality does not lead me to think he was simply making things up for the US gov't even if his work was used to falsely discredit accusations against it.

    Interestingly, this ex-Antifa member claims that she started being deprogramed from Antifa in part by recognizing how her interactions with other Antifa paralleled the techniques used in Chinese thought reform as described in Lifton's work...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qesP3DORkt0

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde

    Unfortunately, with regard to your claim about the Reds extracting false confesssion, you have mistaken your opinion, or sentiments, for a conclusion based on evidence.
    Lifton’s work has merit and the techniques he describes as “totalist” have been used by all manner of American charlatans, one glaring example being people associated with the GOP in the phoney War on Drugs.
    http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/2011%20Marcus%20Chatfield.pdf

    There is significant evidence to support the conclusion that the confessions made by US flyers during the campaign of US war crimes on the Korean peninsula in the 1950-53 period were bona fide.

    Curious that you completely ignore the totalist coercion techniques used by a wide array of US government entities in an unrelenting program of social control, and remain fixated on the wicked Commies. As I said, in four hundred years the Reds couldn’t have mustered a totalist thought reform program to rival that used on the US population by the US government.

    Cool story about Antifa, bro. If that’s not a modern-day Cointelpro or Operation Chaos abomination, I’ll buy some of your Amway shampoo.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Rufus Clyde

    You seem to be fixated on the Korean issue, which I did not contradict you about. If American flyers gave accurate accounts of war crimes, that is not an argument against the inhumaneness of Communism. In fact, it is entirely compatible with having experienced Thought Reform as described by Lifton, the techniques moving as they did among forces confessions of real facts and forced confessions of lies.

    Also, you conflate private torture recognized and condemned (Straight) with state-sponsored torture against which people are unable to speak out. These are not equivalent when the question at hand is the nature of the political system. Moreover, propaganda and Thought Reform are not at all morally equivalent. While propaganda may allow the U.S. gov't to control it's population and also lead people to live in mistaken beliefs, it is not traumatizing or violative of personal sovereignty in the same way. At all! (Propaganda is a feature of living in society and has existed since the earliest states. It is good to try to recognize and correct it, but suggesting it is a special feature of the capitalist West is foolish and counterproductive.). While I would class Guantanamo and some CIA black ops with Communist Thought Reform and condemn it, that kind of control mechanism is not a general feature of life in the West. Not yet anyway.

    So, I repeat again, unless you reject the veracity of any accounts in Lifton's work, which was done not only with servicemen but a variety of Chinese and expats targeted by the Revolution, it has merit to warn us about the lived experience of people under Communism. The possible reality of Korean flyers' accounts of biological warfare, and the misuse of Lifton's work by people in the U.S. are simply red herrings (or should I say Red herrings!).

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde

    , @nebulafox
    @Rufus Clyde

    >There is significant evidence to support the conclusion that the confessions made by US flyers during the campaign of US war crimes on the Korean peninsula in the 1950-53 period were bona fide

    https://images.app.goo.gl/Kz1Ws3SgZdQv45oa9

    > As I said, in four hundred years the Reds couldn’t have mustered a totalist thought reform program to rival that used on the US population by the US government.

    Hey, we can't help being better than the Communists. It's just a fact of nature, like a Beethoven symphony being beautiful or Karl Rove being an ugly slug.

  31. @nebulafox
    @Chrisnonymous

    Speaking as someone born after the Cold War: it's just not relevant to our life experience. The closest you'll get are the American born kids or grandkids of people who fled Communist countries, but even that's not really a living flesh example. Most of them have long since switched to a market economy, China and Vietnam as much as the old Warsaw Pact and USSR. It's also not relevant to the current realities of most Americans who remember those times, hence why the GOP Establishment's efforts to try and reverse the clock are futile.

    Of course, this is largely even more the case for WWII and the Holocaust: leaving aside the fact that the actual darkest horrors of Nazi Germany rarely visit the popular imagination (Generalplan Ost) and that flicks make mountains out of molehills with the "resistance" in the countries they focus on (German occupation authorities generally relied off of local structures in Western Europe and were only forced out by external military pressure).

    I think the difference in treatment between the two doesn't just reflect the ideological fixations of American mainstream pop culture, but the desire of many people to want to imagine that they themselves are the freedom fighters of the age, fighting against fascism or at least the new Bull Connors-however ridiculous that is. Why that is so is a discussion for another thread. But it's funny that back in the 1960s, where there were a lot of Americans who had Auschwitz tattoos and Nazi war criminals were on the lam, there was a lot less ritualistic obsession over the topic. I have never been to Israel, so I'm happy to defer to someone who has more familiarity with the place, but near as I can tell Israel also lacks that obsession, despite being-literally-a state born of genocide.

    (You think that declining Rome peddled Punic War nostalgia similar to how modern Hollywood cannot seem to think of history before 1939? It's part of why I'm an increasing fan of classical education, despite my STEM background. They provide alternative moral stories and lessons to a mainstream culture that is increasingly unimaginative and repetitive.)

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde, @dfordoom, @Chrisnonymous

    “I have never been to Israel, so I’m happy to defer to someone who has more familiarity with the place, but near as I can tell Israel also lacks that obsession, despite being-literally-a state born of genocide.”
    That was a real knee-slapper.
    https://watchdocumentaries.com/defamation/

  32. @Wyatt
    @V. K. Ovelund

    We're also in the Weimar period. The youth have nothing to look forward to and, even worse, they're dumb as hell. Communism has great appeal to the disenfranchised and those that think they're intelligent. With no future ahead of them, the youth of today are very motivated to seize wealth if they cannot generate themselves.

    However, since Communism is an abstract ideology with more than one step, there's a minimum degree of intelligence necessary needed to pretend to understand it. So you get a bunch of purposefully stupid white kids who have a positive opinion of Marxism/Socialism/Communism, but a dearth of average (85 IQ) blacks who neither can nor pretend to understand the ideologies. That might also explain the skew. If you were to measure the openly Marxist black BLM leaders, I'd venture a guess they're smarter than the average black. Smarter being a nominal term in this case, of course.

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde

    Do you think that you’re intelligent? Capitalism is literally the act of seizing wealth from other people.

    • Replies: @Wyatt
    @Rufus Clyde

    More intelligent than a communist which, given your comment history here on Unz, means more intelligent than you. Let's take your statement on capitalism for instance. It is not literally the seizing of wealth. That's not within the definition of capitalism nor is it the actual method of economic action. For starters, wealth has to be generated in order for it to even possibly be stolen. People don't just start with wealth or skills. Wealth must be developed and people must be trained to generate it. Capitalism has a vested interest in developing the latter because useless people generally have no money to put into the system. Skills are useful because they can be used to build and maintain things and capitalist systems have done far better than anything else tried on mass national scales.

    Frankly, it's always amusing when you Marxists pop out of your holes and try to show how smart you think you are. When the time comes to put up, there's almost an exact methodology that you tards fit into. You don't argue in good faith, you're insulting to anyone or anything that doesn't agree with your beliefs and you're the quintessential pigeon on a chessboard thinking you know more than you do because you read some dipshit jew who spoke in absolutes with virtually no substantive evidence. Reading any bit of Das Kapital is a fucking slog because Marx likes stating that something is true without supporting data to show that it is true. He also likes saying that things will be this way in Communism. It's no wonder he's persuasive to idiots. He's nothing but platitudes and insistence. Did you vote for Joe Biden because you got told Orange Man bad as well?

    Still, it's good to see people like you insisting that you have anything to say. It contributes more evidence to my theory that certain forms of leftist thinking are pathologies of the mind that share common attributes, much like a disease. Luckily, even if that kind of cognitive disability isn't curable, if the right wingers gain power back in the country, you get put up against a wall. If the real communists get into power, you get put up against a wall as well. Here's hoping the revolution is televised :)

  33. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Reg Cæsar

    When I was a university instructor, I taught a couple thousand undergraduates born after the Berlin Wall fell, so I have had some interaction with the younger generation.

    Words like Communism convey little meaning to them.

    Trying to cause them to experience the visceral fear our generation felt of Soviet missiles is like trying to cause us to experience the visceral fear an earlier generation felt of Carthaginian elephants. Unfortunately, it does not work.

    I mention this as a roundabout way of pointing out that some, perhaps many, of the present survey's respondents probably don't understand the question.

    Replies: @Wyatt, @Rufus Clyde, @dfordoom

    Why such visceral fear of Soviet missiles? The US had a first-strike policy, the Soviets did not. The US actually nuked two cities, the Soviets did not. There is no historical precedent for the numbers killed as a result of US aerial bombardment, whether directly or from resulting collapses in infrastructure. My great uncle was part of the Allied occupation and attempted colonization of Siberia after the First World War. You won’t find a single Russian who can accurately claim that one of his relations was involved in a similar campaign in the United States conducted by the Soviets.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Rufus Clyde


    Why such visceral fear of Soviet missiles?
     
    Was there really visceral fear of Soviet missiles? I lived through the Cold War and it wasn't like that. People were certainly not paralysed by fear. In fact people were more cheerful and more relaxed on average than people today.

    Maybe it was like that in the early stages of the Cold War. By the 60s nobody was particularly worried. Peaceful co-existence was pretty much taken for granted.

    Maybe it was different in the US. But I knew a few Americans during the Cold War and I never heard them express any visceral fear of Soviet missiles.

    The 60s and early 70s was certainly a time of optimism. From the mid-70s there was pessimism about the economy but still no visceral fear of Soviet missiles.
    , @Wency
    @Rufus Clyde


    The US had a first-strike policy, the Soviets did not.
     
    I don't think anyone had a "first strike policy", but the Soviets did have a "no first use" policy only in their final years, which the Russian Federation rescinded. The distinction between the terms being that a first strike may indicate starting a war off with a nuclear attack, while refusing to commit to "no first use" simply means that you might use nukes if you're being conventionally overrun.

    But the fact of the matter is that both sides were insisting their nuclear arsenals and the conventional build-up in Central Europe were defensive and that they had no interest in fighting WW3, and this seems to have been largely true, but there was a lack of trust and both sides doubted the honesty of the other. Thus the US never committed to refusing to use nukes if the Soviets launched a blitz through the Fulda Gap.

    I think growing up in America as it once was, it was hard to understand how anyone could be afraid of us. The thought process was something like:

    "It is plain to all that we're the good guys, lovers of peace, slow to anger and provoked to righteous fury only by evils that shock the soul. Anyone who says they're afraid of us must be
    afraid because they're contemplating or partaking in just such evils."

    Honestly I would guess that a majority of Republican voters would still agree with these statements, or something like them, to this day. The left's oikophobia actually makes normiecons double down on their naive patriotic assertions about an America that is actually dominated by the left they despise.

    That said, I also stay away from equivocating too much between the two sides in the Cold War. The evils of Soviet oppression were, in fact, much worse than anything the US did. Our leading fear for the West is that it seems to be becoming more like the Soviet system, but even in its present degenerate state it still has a very, very long way to fall.

    But yes, we should also be able to see how a Russia that in living memory had come close to being completely overrun by Western anti-Communists in WW2 could, in fact, be legitimately concerned during the Cold War about dangers from a West in which anti-Communism remained, in some cases, a matter of religious conviction.

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde

    , @V. K. Ovelund
    @Rufus Clyde


    Why such visceral fear of Soviet missiles?
     
    @Wency has given a better answer than I could, so I don't know if I have much to add along that line; but may I ask: are you old enough to remember the fall of the Berlin Wall?

    I served in the U.S. Army during the Cold War's final decade—which hardly makes me special, nor insightful, but my comrades and I were young and took the Communist threat in deadly earnest. We trained to kill Commies. We practiced at targets with our M-16 rifles to kill Commies. We did pushups to kill Commies. And when we ran in formation for physical fitness, we did it to be able to run those Commie bastards down.

    And we didn't think that there was anything remarkable about any of this.

    I remember this one, blond, big-boned, blue-eyed comrade of mine from Arkansas, a fellow Army private, a happy fellow with a massive chin-bone who struggled to keep his weight within the fairly stringent active-duty standards, who used to like to polish his battle-uniform boots to a mirror shine—so that, if a single speck of dust settled on the toe, the speck stood out. I remember sitting across the bench from him one Sunday afternoon in the barracks, both in green (or was it brown?) G.I. stockings with boots in hand, polishing. He'd been working on his shine for half an hour when his smile faded and he grew uncharacteristically serious. He told me, “Do you see these boots here? The first thing I'm going to do when the Commies attack is rub mud all over them, or some charcoal, and then—while the armorer is issuing us our rifles—I'm going to fire up the sergeant's backhoe and dig us a trench. I'm going to make those Communists rue the day.”

    Those were different times.

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde

  34. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Reg Cæsar

    When I was a university instructor, I taught a couple thousand undergraduates born after the Berlin Wall fell, so I have had some interaction with the younger generation.

    Words like Communism convey little meaning to them.

    Trying to cause them to experience the visceral fear our generation felt of Soviet missiles is like trying to cause us to experience the visceral fear an earlier generation felt of Carthaginian elephants. Unfortunately, it does not work.

    I mention this as a roundabout way of pointing out that some, perhaps many, of the present survey's respondents probably don't understand the question.

    Replies: @Wyatt, @Rufus Clyde, @dfordoom

    Trying to cause them to experience the visceral fear our generation felt of Soviet missiles is like trying to cause us to experience the visceral fear an earlier generation felt of Carthaginian elephants. Unfortunately, it does not work.

    Yes. And communism is no longer a threat. Trying to make people afraid of the communist menace is about as useful as trying to make them afraid of the Bonapartist menace.

    There are real threats we need to worry about. Wokeism, SJWism, neo-liberalism, neocons, the unholy (and fascistic) alliance between big government and big business – these are real threats. These are things we should be afraid of.

    Communism is as dead as Bonapartism.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
  35. @nebulafox
    @Chrisnonymous

    Speaking as someone born after the Cold War: it's just not relevant to our life experience. The closest you'll get are the American born kids or grandkids of people who fled Communist countries, but even that's not really a living flesh example. Most of them have long since switched to a market economy, China and Vietnam as much as the old Warsaw Pact and USSR. It's also not relevant to the current realities of most Americans who remember those times, hence why the GOP Establishment's efforts to try and reverse the clock are futile.

    Of course, this is largely even more the case for WWII and the Holocaust: leaving aside the fact that the actual darkest horrors of Nazi Germany rarely visit the popular imagination (Generalplan Ost) and that flicks make mountains out of molehills with the "resistance" in the countries they focus on (German occupation authorities generally relied off of local structures in Western Europe and were only forced out by external military pressure).

    I think the difference in treatment between the two doesn't just reflect the ideological fixations of American mainstream pop culture, but the desire of many people to want to imagine that they themselves are the freedom fighters of the age, fighting against fascism or at least the new Bull Connors-however ridiculous that is. Why that is so is a discussion for another thread. But it's funny that back in the 1960s, where there were a lot of Americans who had Auschwitz tattoos and Nazi war criminals were on the lam, there was a lot less ritualistic obsession over the topic. I have never been to Israel, so I'm happy to defer to someone who has more familiarity with the place, but near as I can tell Israel also lacks that obsession, despite being-literally-a state born of genocide.

    (You think that declining Rome peddled Punic War nostalgia similar to how modern Hollywood cannot seem to think of history before 1939? It's part of why I'm an increasing fan of classical education, despite my STEM background. They provide alternative moral stories and lessons to a mainstream culture that is increasingly unimaginative and repetitive.)

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde, @dfordoom, @Chrisnonymous

    Speaking as someone born after the Cold War: it’s just not relevant to our life experience.

    I agree. And speaking as someone who lived during the Cold War, the communist menace is just not relevant to me either.

    The obsession with commies is mostly a thing for ageing dinosaurs who want to endlessly refight the political battles of sixty or seventy years ago.

  36. @Rufus Clyde
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Why such visceral fear of Soviet missiles? The US had a first-strike policy, the Soviets did not. The US actually nuked two cities, the Soviets did not. There is no historical precedent for the numbers killed as a result of US aerial bombardment, whether directly or from resulting collapses in infrastructure. My great uncle was part of the Allied occupation and attempted colonization of Siberia after the First World War. You won't find a single Russian who can accurately claim that one of his relations was involved in a similar campaign in the United States conducted by the Soviets.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Wency, @V. K. Ovelund

    Why such visceral fear of Soviet missiles?

    Was there really visceral fear of Soviet missiles? I lived through the Cold War and it wasn’t like that. People were certainly not paralysed by fear. In fact people were more cheerful and more relaxed on average than people today.

    Maybe it was like that in the early stages of the Cold War. By the 60s nobody was particularly worried. Peaceful co-existence was pretty much taken for granted.

    Maybe it was different in the US. But I knew a few Americans during the Cold War and I never heard them express any visceral fear of Soviet missiles.

    The 60s and early 70s was certainly a time of optimism. From the mid-70s there was pessimism about the economy but still no visceral fear of Soviet missiles.

  37. @nebulafox
    @Chrisnonymous

    Speaking as someone born after the Cold War: it's just not relevant to our life experience. The closest you'll get are the American born kids or grandkids of people who fled Communist countries, but even that's not really a living flesh example. Most of them have long since switched to a market economy, China and Vietnam as much as the old Warsaw Pact and USSR. It's also not relevant to the current realities of most Americans who remember those times, hence why the GOP Establishment's efforts to try and reverse the clock are futile.

    Of course, this is largely even more the case for WWII and the Holocaust: leaving aside the fact that the actual darkest horrors of Nazi Germany rarely visit the popular imagination (Generalplan Ost) and that flicks make mountains out of molehills with the "resistance" in the countries they focus on (German occupation authorities generally relied off of local structures in Western Europe and were only forced out by external military pressure).

    I think the difference in treatment between the two doesn't just reflect the ideological fixations of American mainstream pop culture, but the desire of many people to want to imagine that they themselves are the freedom fighters of the age, fighting against fascism or at least the new Bull Connors-however ridiculous that is. Why that is so is a discussion for another thread. But it's funny that back in the 1960s, where there were a lot of Americans who had Auschwitz tattoos and Nazi war criminals were on the lam, there was a lot less ritualistic obsession over the topic. I have never been to Israel, so I'm happy to defer to someone who has more familiarity with the place, but near as I can tell Israel also lacks that obsession, despite being-literally-a state born of genocide.

    (You think that declining Rome peddled Punic War nostalgia similar to how modern Hollywood cannot seem to think of history before 1939? It's part of why I'm an increasing fan of classical education, despite my STEM background. They provide alternative moral stories and lessons to a mainstream culture that is increasingly unimaginative and repetitive.)

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde, @dfordoom, @Chrisnonymous

    it’s just not relevant to our life experience. …the GOP Establishment’s efforts to try and reverse the clock…

    …the difference in treatment between the two doesn’t just reflect the ideological fixations of American mainstream pop culture, but the desire of many people to want to imagine that they themselves are the freedom fighters of the age, fighting against fascism

    I agree that many that many young Americans live in a Nazi-punching fantasy. This reflects the left’s ability to keep the clock constantly reversed to WWII. But actually the psychological state induced is a failure of education. Rather than learning to approach history from the standpoint of useful insight, they learn emotional reactions, which are ramped to fever pitch by teachers and pop culture icons, who project onto current politics.

    However, this failure or misuse of education doesn’t mean that learning about mid-century fascism is a mistake. This is a period in history that young people need to know about. The same is true of the Communism, and in fact if history were taught to young people well, they would see all the varieties of mid-century totalitarian utopianism across the globe and the ways they failed and mistreated people as equally disturbing even if not exactly the same.

    You are right to be derisive of the GOPe trying to use the epithet of Communist to drum up support against, eg, Obama only to the extent that it is a mirror of the Democrats recurrent claims that the Republicans are Hitler–based less in facts and analysis than ignorance, thinking-in-labels, and factionalist emoting. However, being derisive of referencing Communism because it’s no longer relevant is a not a correction of the GOPe’s strategy, but a feature of the failed educations many young people have and another reflection of the social phenomenons that AE is drawing attention to in his post.

    The experiences of people who lived under mid-century totalist regimes are relevant today as warnings against the totalist and utopian viewpoints influencing our politics today. These include the rising international influence of the PRC but also the “end of history” utopianism of the establishment West. Moreover, big-c Communism is directly relevant for just the reason that it is not known and not feared and continues, contrary to what you seem to think, to have direct relevance to the present inasmuch as it is accepted as an aspirational ideal by people in “the cathedral”.

    I do not think raising the spectre of Communism is at all cringe as long as it is not name-calling and instead focused on recalling the threats from organizing society in ways that require centralization, unity, and reform and direction of behavior. There are other kinds of death than in gas chambers,and not all are deaths of the body.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Chrisnonymous

    I don't think learning about it is a mistake. But I'm derisive of attempts to ramble on about creeping socialism in contemporary US politics for the same reason that I'm contemptuous of Democrat attempts revive the specter of fascism or the KKK: it's just not relevant to 21st Century America. We live in a different time period, we have different problems, no matter how much easier it is to emotionally throw yourself into the past. Nostalgia ain't an answer.

    (That, and America got rich and prosperous precisely because we did the opposite of what much of the GOPe asserts, economically speaking: especially on trade. For people averse to socialism, their policies seem tailor made to make socialism tempting to those on the outs: you actually think socialism is bad, make sure people don't have a reason to think about it. Of course, this blindness to inconvenient realities goes the other way around. Anyone want to guess how many American soldiers in Normandy in 1944 fighting a bunch of Slav-killing German ultra-nationalists allied to Imperial Japan and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem came from segregationist states and liked the Stars and Bars?)

    >Moreover, big-c Communism is directly relevant for just the reason that it is not known and not feared and continues, contrary to what you seem to think, to have direct relevance to the present inasmuch as it is accepted as an aspirational ideal by people in “the cathedral”.

    What indicates our bipartisan elites want a classless society? Marxist noklementuras aside, there doesn't seem to be any fundamental rejection of markets in their world-view. Now, is there something Marxistoid about their deterministic view of history and their division of demographics into good and bad? Yes. And does the current social justice movement have a lot of roots in the 1960s, which in turn goes back to previous leftist movements? Sure. But that's not the same thing.

    If anything, theirs is a neo-feudal vision. Corporate America is quite happy with the woke stuff. And the most radical social justice authoritarians generally have an upper-middle class background, and their actions speak louder than words.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

  38. @Rufus Clyde
    @Wyatt

    Do you think that you're intelligent? Capitalism is literally the act of seizing wealth from other people.

    Replies: @Wyatt

    More intelligent than a communist which, given your comment history here on Unz, means more intelligent than you. Let’s take your statement on capitalism for instance. It is not literally the seizing of wealth. That’s not within the definition of capitalism nor is it the actual method of economic action. For starters, wealth has to be generated in order for it to even possibly be stolen. People don’t just start with wealth or skills. Wealth must be developed and people must be trained to generate it. Capitalism has a vested interest in developing the latter because useless people generally have no money to put into the system. Skills are useful because they can be used to build and maintain things and capitalist systems have done far better than anything else tried on mass national scales.

    Frankly, it’s always amusing when you Marxists pop out of your holes and try to show how smart you think you are. When the time comes to put up, there’s almost an exact methodology that you tards fit into. You don’t argue in good faith, you’re insulting to anyone or anything that doesn’t agree with your beliefs and you’re the quintessential pigeon on a chessboard thinking you know more than you do because you read some dipshit jew who spoke in absolutes with virtually no substantive evidence. Reading any bit of Das Kapital is a fucking slog because Marx likes stating that something is true without supporting data to show that it is true. He also likes saying that things will be this way in Communism. It’s no wonder he’s persuasive to idiots. He’s nothing but platitudes and insistence. Did you vote for Joe Biden because you got told Orange Man bad as well?

    Still, it’s good to see people like you insisting that you have anything to say. It contributes more evidence to my theory that certain forms of leftist thinking are pathologies of the mind that share common attributes, much like a disease. Luckily, even if that kind of cognitive disability isn’t curable, if the right wingers gain power back in the country, you get put up against a wall. If the real communists get into power, you get put up against a wall as well. Here’s hoping the revolution is televised 🙂

    • Agree: silviosilver
  39. @Chrisnonymous
    @nebulafox


    it’s just not relevant to our life experience. ...the GOP Establishment’s efforts to try and reverse the clock...

    ...the difference in treatment between the two doesn’t just reflect the ideological fixations of American mainstream pop culture, but the desire of many people to want to imagine that they themselves are the freedom fighters of the age, fighting against fascism
     
    I agree that many that many young Americans live in a Nazi-punching fantasy. This reflects the left's ability to keep the clock constantly reversed to WWII. But actually the psychological state induced is a failure of education. Rather than learning to approach history from the standpoint of useful insight, they learn emotional reactions, which are ramped to fever pitch by teachers and pop culture icons, who project onto current politics.

    However, this failure or misuse of education doesn't mean that learning about mid-century fascism is a mistake. This is a period in history that young people need to know about. The same is true of the Communism, and in fact if history were taught to young people well, they would see all the varieties of mid-century totalitarian utopianism across the globe and the ways they failed and mistreated people as equally disturbing even if not exactly the same.

    You are right to be derisive of the GOPe trying to use the epithet of Communist to drum up support against, eg, Obama only to the extent that it is a mirror of the Democrats recurrent claims that the Republicans are Hitler--based less in facts and analysis than ignorance, thinking-in-labels, and factionalist emoting. However, being derisive of referencing Communism because it's no longer relevant is a not a correction of the GOPe's strategy, but a feature of the failed educations many young people have and another reflection of the social phenomenons that AE is drawing attention to in his post.

    The experiences of people who lived under mid-century totalist regimes are relevant today as warnings against the totalist and utopian viewpoints influencing our politics today. These include the rising international influence of the PRC but also the "end of history" utopianism of the establishment West. Moreover, big-c Communism is directly relevant for just the reason that it is not known and not feared and continues, contrary to what you seem to think, to have direct relevance to the present inasmuch as it is accepted as an aspirational ideal by people in "the cathedral".

    I do not think raising the spectre of Communism is at all cringe as long as it is not name-calling and instead focused on recalling the threats from organizing society in ways that require centralization, unity, and reform and direction of behavior. There are other kinds of death than in gas chambers,and not all are deaths of the body.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    I don’t think learning about it is a mistake. But I’m derisive of attempts to ramble on about creeping socialism in contemporary US politics for the same reason that I’m contemptuous of Democrat attempts revive the specter of fascism or the KKK: it’s just not relevant to 21st Century America. We live in a different time period, we have different problems, no matter how much easier it is to emotionally throw yourself into the past. Nostalgia ain’t an answer.

    (That, and America got rich and prosperous precisely because we did the opposite of what much of the GOPe asserts, economically speaking: especially on trade. For people averse to socialism, their policies seem tailor made to make socialism tempting to those on the outs: you actually think socialism is bad, make sure people don’t have a reason to think about it. Of course, this blindness to inconvenient realities goes the other way around. Anyone want to guess how many American soldiers in Normandy in 1944 fighting a bunch of Slav-killing German ultra-nationalists allied to Imperial Japan and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem came from segregationist states and liked the Stars and Bars?)

    >Moreover, big-c Communism is directly relevant for just the reason that it is not known and not feared and continues, contrary to what you seem to think, to have direct relevance to the present inasmuch as it is accepted as an aspirational ideal by people in “the cathedral”.

    What indicates our bipartisan elites want a classless society? Marxist noklementuras aside, there doesn’t seem to be any fundamental rejection of markets in their world-view. Now, is there something Marxistoid about their deterministic view of history and their division of demographics into good and bad? Yes. And does the current social justice movement have a lot of roots in the 1960s, which in turn goes back to previous leftist movements? Sure. But that’s not the same thing.

    If anything, theirs is a neo-feudal vision. Corporate America is quite happy with the woke stuff. And the most radical social justice authoritarians generally have an upper-middle class background, and their actions speak louder than words.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @nebulafox

    We might be talking at cross-purposes here. I don't know. I agree that the GOPe is hypocritical on many points regarding things like social welfare and corporate subsidies, and I am not very interested in arguments over, eg, health care reform. I attended an "elite" eastern college and from that experience and interacting with younger politically-minded people today, I'd say there is actual idealisation of Communism but not the Communism of history, the Communism of their imaginations and feelings, based on the cult of equality that has grown up in the US. This is entirely compatible on a psychological level with being pro-markets (where is my iPhone coming from!), the same as the phenomenon of white collar Antifa protestors. This is why there are woke corporations now and were severe class (or at least living standards) differences in Marxist states throughout history--self-interest is psychologically compatible with "equality".

    Again, while throwing the epithet "Communist" around in political campaigns or propaganda is dumb, I think it is entirely valid and constructive to remember the past and its intellectual ties to the present and call them out. The fact that SJWs are not exactly the same thing as the CPUSA does not mean Communism is irrelevant to present-day politics. In fact, I think the question is, if we don't relate our experiences to the past, how can we tell which paths ahead of us are fraught with peril?

    (And of course, there are people like Sanders and Brennan who were literal Communists still floating around too)

    Replies: @dfordoom, @V. K. Ovelund

  40. @Rufus Clyde
    @Chrisnonymous

    Unfortunately, with regard to your claim about the Reds extracting false confesssion, you have mistaken your opinion, or sentiments, for a conclusion based on evidence.
    Lifton's work has merit and the techniques he describes as "totalist" have been used by all manner of American charlatans, one glaring example being people associated with the GOP in the phoney War on Drugs.
    http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/2011%20Marcus%20Chatfield.pdf

    There is significant evidence to support the conclusion that the confessions made by US flyers during the campaign of US war crimes on the Korean peninsula in the 1950-53 period were bona fide.

    Curious that you completely ignore the totalist coercion techniques used by a wide array of US government entities in an unrelenting program of social control, and remain fixated on the wicked Commies. As I said, in four hundred years the Reds couldn't have mustered a totalist thought reform program to rival that used on the US population by the US government.

    Cool story about Antifa, bro. If that's not a modern-day Cointelpro or Operation Chaos abomination, I'll buy some of your Amway shampoo.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @nebulafox

    You seem to be fixated on the Korean issue, which I did not contradict you about. If American flyers gave accurate accounts of war crimes, that is not an argument against the inhumaneness of Communism. In fact, it is entirely compatible with having experienced Thought Reform as described by Lifton, the techniques moving as they did among forces confessions of real facts and forced confessions of lies.

    Also, you conflate private torture recognized and condemned (Straight) with state-sponsored torture against which people are unable to speak out. These are not equivalent when the question at hand is the nature of the political system. Moreover, propaganda and Thought Reform are not at all morally equivalent. While propaganda may allow the U.S. gov’t to control it’s population and also lead people to live in mistaken beliefs, it is not traumatizing or violative of personal sovereignty in the same way. At all! (Propaganda is a feature of living in society and has existed since the earliest states. It is good to try to recognize and correct it, but suggesting it is a special feature of the capitalist West is foolish and counterproductive.). While I would class Guantanamo and some CIA black ops with Communist Thought Reform and condemn it, that kind of control mechanism is not a general feature of life in the West. Not yet anyway.

    So, I repeat again, unless you reject the veracity of any accounts in Lifton’s work, which was done not only with servicemen but a variety of Chinese and expats targeted by the Revolution, it has merit to warn us about the lived experience of people under Communism. The possible reality of Korean flyers’ accounts of biological warfare, and the misuse of Lifton’s work by people in the U.S. are simply red herrings (or should I say Red herrings!).

    • Replies: @Rufus Clyde
    @Chrisnonymous

    You didn't respond directly to my original reference to downed US flyers, and instead made a vague and unsupported claim about Chinese and Russian false confessions, so I responded with a single sentence expressing my belief that the confessions made by US flyers captured in Korea were genuine. I would argue that you characterization of that as fixation is a logical fallacy.
    Straight was absolutely not private, nor has it been condemned by the state which sponsored it. There is a significant documenation of US state involvement in an entire chain of thought reform programs, beginning with the Seed. These programs were sponsored by entities such as the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, and included human psychological experiments conducted on prisoners such as those conducted in Vacaville.
    Your claim that US propaganda affords the state control over the population while not being violative of personal sovereignty is absurd.
    The CIA was proven to be behind the Gladio terror events, as well as closely liaised to terrorists like Martin McGinness in Northern Ireland, and MI6 has proven time and again to be behind violence on both sides in Northern Ireland, all of which acts are methods of psychological warfare employed by the alleged democracies of the west, and are only the tip of the iceberg.
    You really are hilarious.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

  41. @Rufus Clyde
    @Chrisnonymous

    Unfortunately, with regard to your claim about the Reds extracting false confesssion, you have mistaken your opinion, or sentiments, for a conclusion based on evidence.
    Lifton's work has merit and the techniques he describes as "totalist" have been used by all manner of American charlatans, one glaring example being people associated with the GOP in the phoney War on Drugs.
    http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/2011%20Marcus%20Chatfield.pdf

    There is significant evidence to support the conclusion that the confessions made by US flyers during the campaign of US war crimes on the Korean peninsula in the 1950-53 period were bona fide.

    Curious that you completely ignore the totalist coercion techniques used by a wide array of US government entities in an unrelenting program of social control, and remain fixated on the wicked Commies. As I said, in four hundred years the Reds couldn't have mustered a totalist thought reform program to rival that used on the US population by the US government.

    Cool story about Antifa, bro. If that's not a modern-day Cointelpro or Operation Chaos abomination, I'll buy some of your Amway shampoo.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @nebulafox

    >There is significant evidence to support the conclusion that the confessions made by US flyers during the campaign of US war crimes on the Korean peninsula in the 1950-53 period were bona fide

    https://images.app.goo.gl/Kz1Ws3SgZdQv45oa9

    > As I said, in four hundred years the Reds couldn’t have mustered a totalist thought reform program to rival that used on the US population by the US government.

    Hey, we can’t help being better than the Communists. It’s just a fact of nature, like a Beethoven symphony being beautiful or Karl Rove being an ugly slug.

  42. @nebulafox
    @Chrisnonymous

    I don't think learning about it is a mistake. But I'm derisive of attempts to ramble on about creeping socialism in contemporary US politics for the same reason that I'm contemptuous of Democrat attempts revive the specter of fascism or the KKK: it's just not relevant to 21st Century America. We live in a different time period, we have different problems, no matter how much easier it is to emotionally throw yourself into the past. Nostalgia ain't an answer.

    (That, and America got rich and prosperous precisely because we did the opposite of what much of the GOPe asserts, economically speaking: especially on trade. For people averse to socialism, their policies seem tailor made to make socialism tempting to those on the outs: you actually think socialism is bad, make sure people don't have a reason to think about it. Of course, this blindness to inconvenient realities goes the other way around. Anyone want to guess how many American soldiers in Normandy in 1944 fighting a bunch of Slav-killing German ultra-nationalists allied to Imperial Japan and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem came from segregationist states and liked the Stars and Bars?)

    >Moreover, big-c Communism is directly relevant for just the reason that it is not known and not feared and continues, contrary to what you seem to think, to have direct relevance to the present inasmuch as it is accepted as an aspirational ideal by people in “the cathedral”.

    What indicates our bipartisan elites want a classless society? Marxist noklementuras aside, there doesn't seem to be any fundamental rejection of markets in their world-view. Now, is there something Marxistoid about their deterministic view of history and their division of demographics into good and bad? Yes. And does the current social justice movement have a lot of roots in the 1960s, which in turn goes back to previous leftist movements? Sure. But that's not the same thing.

    If anything, theirs is a neo-feudal vision. Corporate America is quite happy with the woke stuff. And the most radical social justice authoritarians generally have an upper-middle class background, and their actions speak louder than words.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    We might be talking at cross-purposes here. I don’t know. I agree that the GOPe is hypocritical on many points regarding things like social welfare and corporate subsidies, and I am not very interested in arguments over, eg, health care reform. I attended an “elite” eastern college and from that experience and interacting with younger politically-minded people today, I’d say there is actual idealisation of Communism but not the Communism of history, the Communism of their imaginations and feelings, based on the cult of equality that has grown up in the US. This is entirely compatible on a psychological level with being pro-markets (where is my iPhone coming from!), the same as the phenomenon of white collar Antifa protestors. This is why there are woke corporations now and were severe class (or at least living standards) differences in Marxist states throughout history–self-interest is psychologically compatible with “equality”.

    Again, while throwing the epithet “Communist” around in political campaigns or propaganda is dumb, I think it is entirely valid and constructive to remember the past and its intellectual ties to the present and call them out. The fact that SJWs are not exactly the same thing as the CPUSA does not mean Communism is irrelevant to present-day politics. In fact, I think the question is, if we don’t relate our experiences to the past, how can we tell which paths ahead of us are fraught with peril?

    (And of course, there are people like Sanders and Brennan who were literal Communists still floating around too)

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Chrisnonymous


    based on the cult of equality that has grown up in the US.
     
    Do you really think there's a cult of equality in the US? I haven't heard too many people suggesting that billionaires should have their wealth confiscated and redistributed to the poor. That would be my idea of a cult of equality.

    There actually seems to be a cult of inequality in the US. Billionaires are treated as gods.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    , @V. K. Ovelund
    @Chrisnonymous

    You ask good questions.


    In fact, I think the question is, if we don’t relate our experiences to the past, how can we tell which paths ahead of us are fraught with peril?
     
    Intellectual vanity ensnares many IQ-110+ persons. They tend not to grasp why bright ideas are bad until personally threatened by someone else's bright ideas.

    They really should read more @dfordoom. They won't read him until it is too late to matter, but they should. (@dfordoom quite understandably has an imperfect view of the United States that, to the extent to which the view is accurate at all, is largely 20 to 30 years out of date, but that isn't what I meant here. I meant here his general, anti-vain understanding of how things work.)

    Meanwhile, the answer to your question is probably that, as long as the we of which you speak are comprised in significant measure of the intellectually vain, we cannot tell which paths ahead of us are fraught with peril.

  43. @Chrisnonymous
    @nebulafox

    We might be talking at cross-purposes here. I don't know. I agree that the GOPe is hypocritical on many points regarding things like social welfare and corporate subsidies, and I am not very interested in arguments over, eg, health care reform. I attended an "elite" eastern college and from that experience and interacting with younger politically-minded people today, I'd say there is actual idealisation of Communism but not the Communism of history, the Communism of their imaginations and feelings, based on the cult of equality that has grown up in the US. This is entirely compatible on a psychological level with being pro-markets (where is my iPhone coming from!), the same as the phenomenon of white collar Antifa protestors. This is why there are woke corporations now and were severe class (or at least living standards) differences in Marxist states throughout history--self-interest is psychologically compatible with "equality".

    Again, while throwing the epithet "Communist" around in political campaigns or propaganda is dumb, I think it is entirely valid and constructive to remember the past and its intellectual ties to the present and call them out. The fact that SJWs are not exactly the same thing as the CPUSA does not mean Communism is irrelevant to present-day politics. In fact, I think the question is, if we don't relate our experiences to the past, how can we tell which paths ahead of us are fraught with peril?

    (And of course, there are people like Sanders and Brennan who were literal Communists still floating around too)

    Replies: @dfordoom, @V. K. Ovelund

    based on the cult of equality that has grown up in the US.

    Do you really think there’s a cult of equality in the US? I haven’t heard too many people suggesting that billionaires should have their wealth confiscated and redistributed to the poor. That would be my idea of a cult of equality.

    There actually seems to be a cult of inequality in the US. Billionaires are treated as gods.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @dfordoom

    Maybe you should pay attention then. You apparently missed months of rioting by anarchists who think gender is evil because it creates hierarchy and a recent attempt by young day traders to fuck over big hedge funds. And for every person with a torch or a modem, I guarantee there are thousands of others. There are a lot of young people like AOC who speak about pie in the sky ideas about free stuff, and if you scratch them a little bit you'll discover that, without good grounding in Marxist thought or economics, they think we should strip people's wealth away but that it is just a bit beyond what's currently feasible politically. Moreover, as I said in the post you respond to, contradictory beliefs can be held at the same time.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  44. @Chrisnonymous
    @nebulafox

    We might be talking at cross-purposes here. I don't know. I agree that the GOPe is hypocritical on many points regarding things like social welfare and corporate subsidies, and I am not very interested in arguments over, eg, health care reform. I attended an "elite" eastern college and from that experience and interacting with younger politically-minded people today, I'd say there is actual idealisation of Communism but not the Communism of history, the Communism of their imaginations and feelings, based on the cult of equality that has grown up in the US. This is entirely compatible on a psychological level with being pro-markets (where is my iPhone coming from!), the same as the phenomenon of white collar Antifa protestors. This is why there are woke corporations now and were severe class (or at least living standards) differences in Marxist states throughout history--self-interest is psychologically compatible with "equality".

    Again, while throwing the epithet "Communist" around in political campaigns or propaganda is dumb, I think it is entirely valid and constructive to remember the past and its intellectual ties to the present and call them out. The fact that SJWs are not exactly the same thing as the CPUSA does not mean Communism is irrelevant to present-day politics. In fact, I think the question is, if we don't relate our experiences to the past, how can we tell which paths ahead of us are fraught with peril?

    (And of course, there are people like Sanders and Brennan who were literal Communists still floating around too)

    Replies: @dfordoom, @V. K. Ovelund

    You ask good questions.

    In fact, I think the question is, if we don’t relate our experiences to the past, how can we tell which paths ahead of us are fraught with peril?

    Intellectual vanity ensnares many IQ-110+ persons. They tend not to grasp why bright ideas are bad until personally threatened by someone else’s bright ideas.

    They really should read more . They won’t read him until it is too late to matter, but they should. ( quite understandably has an imperfect view of the United States that, to the extent to which the view is accurate at all, is largely 20 to 30 years out of date, but that isn’t what I meant here. I meant here his general, anti-vain understanding of how things work.)

    Meanwhile, the answer to your question is probably that, as long as the we of which you speak are comprised in significant measure of the intellectually vain, we cannot tell which paths ahead of us are fraught with peril.

  45. @Rufus Clyde
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Why such visceral fear of Soviet missiles? The US had a first-strike policy, the Soviets did not. The US actually nuked two cities, the Soviets did not. There is no historical precedent for the numbers killed as a result of US aerial bombardment, whether directly or from resulting collapses in infrastructure. My great uncle was part of the Allied occupation and attempted colonization of Siberia after the First World War. You won't find a single Russian who can accurately claim that one of his relations was involved in a similar campaign in the United States conducted by the Soviets.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Wency, @V. K. Ovelund

    The US had a first-strike policy, the Soviets did not.

    I don’t think anyone had a “first strike policy”, but the Soviets did have a “no first use” policy only in their final years, which the Russian Federation rescinded. The distinction between the terms being that a first strike may indicate starting a war off with a nuclear attack, while refusing to commit to “no first use” simply means that you might use nukes if you’re being conventionally overrun.

    But the fact of the matter is that both sides were insisting their nuclear arsenals and the conventional build-up in Central Europe were defensive and that they had no interest in fighting WW3, and this seems to have been largely true, but there was a lack of trust and both sides doubted the honesty of the other. Thus the US never committed to refusing to use nukes if the Soviets launched a blitz through the Fulda Gap.

    I think growing up in America as it once was, it was hard to understand how anyone could be afraid of us. The thought process was something like:

    “It is plain to all that we’re the good guys, lovers of peace, slow to anger and provoked to righteous fury only by evils that shock the soul. Anyone who says they’re afraid of us must be
    afraid because they’re contemplating or partaking in just such evils.”

    Honestly I would guess that a majority of Republican voters would still agree with these statements, or something like them, to this day. The left’s oikophobia actually makes normiecons double down on their naive patriotic assertions about an America that is actually dominated by the left they despise.

    That said, I also stay away from equivocating too much between the two sides in the Cold War. The evils of Soviet oppression were, in fact, much worse than anything the US did. Our leading fear for the West is that it seems to be becoming more like the Soviet system, but even in its present degenerate state it still has a very, very long way to fall.

    But yes, we should also be able to see how a Russia that in living memory had come close to being completely overrun by Western anti-Communists in WW2 could, in fact, be legitimately concerned during the Cold War about dangers from a West in which anti-Communism remained, in some cases, a matter of religious conviction.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @Rufus Clyde
    @Wency

    Presenting you with facts that conflict with your sentiments, because you don't even hold opinions, produces aphasia.
    There were a number of US and British plans to destroy the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons in the period between the end of the Second World War and the advent of the Soviet nuclear arsenal. If that does not constitute a first-strike policy, I fail to see what else could. The Soviet publicly declared that they would not use nuclear weapons first during the period of Brezhnev's leadership.
    There is no state entity in the world that has murdered people on the scale of the apparatus of the United States of America. Nobody else burning cities to the ground like the US did in Japan, nobody killing 20% of a nation's population as the US did in Korea, nobody poisoning the countryside in the manner of the US in Vietnam.
    The US and it's proxies overthrew sovereign governments all over the world, while screeching that international communism was about to subvert everyone on earth.
    The Nazi horde that drove to the gates of Stalingrad was hard-pressed to murder people with the bloody fruitfulness of the US Air Force.
    Your world-view is less rooted in reality than an episode of the Flintstones.
    https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/cold-war-on-file/operation-unthinkable/
    "The 1949 Dropshot plan envisaged that the US would attack Soviet Russia and drop at least 300 nuclear bombs and 20,000 tons of conventional bombs on 200 targets in 100 urban areas, including Moscow and Leningrad (St. Petersburg). In addition, the planners offered to kick off a major land campaign against the USSR to win a “complete victory” over the Soviet Union together with the European allies. According to the plan Washington would start the war on January 1, 1957."
    https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/from-1945-49-the-us-and-uk-planned-to-bomb-russia-into-the-stone-age

    I can't think of much more opressive acts than the CIA-sponsored program that Ewen Cameron ran in Montreal, which was only one of over one hundred aspects of MK Ultra.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOjMQT5dvN8

    Here's another example of CIA manipulation of the population:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XibCflWxZuA

    The Reds were bumbling amateurs compared to the US Thought Reform machine.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

  46. @dfordoom
    @Chrisnonymous


    based on the cult of equality that has grown up in the US.
     
    Do you really think there's a cult of equality in the US? I haven't heard too many people suggesting that billionaires should have their wealth confiscated and redistributed to the poor. That would be my idea of a cult of equality.

    There actually seems to be a cult of inequality in the US. Billionaires are treated as gods.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    Maybe you should pay attention then. You apparently missed months of rioting by anarchists who think gender is evil because it creates hierarchy and a recent attempt by young day traders to fuck over big hedge funds. And for every person with a torch or a modem, I guarantee there are thousands of others. There are a lot of young people like AOC who speak about pie in the sky ideas about free stuff, and if you scratch them a little bit you’ll discover that, without good grounding in Marxist thought or economics, they think we should strip people’s wealth away but that it is just a bit beyond what’s currently feasible politically. Moreover, as I said in the post you respond to, contradictory beliefs can be held at the same time.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Chrisnonymous


    You apparently missed months of rioting by anarchists who think gender is evil because it creates hierarchy
     
    Gender and racial equality are pushed as substitutes for actual equality. They're intended to distract people from the fact that actual inequality is steadily increasing.

    It's not just wealth inequality that is increasing. The divides between socio-economic classes are becoming sharper and sharper. The contempt of the upper and upper middle classes for the lower classes grows steadily. The cultural and ideological gulfs between the privileged and non-privileged socio-economic classes grow ever wider.

    The upper and upper middle classes consider the lower classes to be barely human.

    I'm afraid I just don't see the evidence for this supposed cult of equality.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

  47. @Almost Missouri
    @V. K. Ovelund


    One notices that Jews (at 59 percent) tolerate racists almost as well as whites (at 64 percent) do, according to this survey.
     
    Given the that Jews are famously high in verbal (Wordsum) intelligence, you would think that Jews ought to be coming in somewhere between Whites at 64 and High Wordsum at 70. Instead, they're way down at 59. Curious. Maybe the truth is that freedom of speech isn't really a Jewish value, as certain people have already noted.

    But then go down to the second chart, where the freedom of communists to speak is concerned, and suddenly Jewish support rockets up to a stratospheric 84! Curiouser. And recall that in the "free speech" era of the 1960s and 1970s, how prominent Jews were in the forefront of the "free speech movement". Curiouser and curiouser. [Never mind that the "free speech" in those days was mostly the freedom for smut and slander.]

    The mystery is of course solved by using a simple who-whom lens. When "communists" (disproportionately Jewish) speak, Jews are all about ze freedom. When "racists" (code for non-compliant gentiles) speak, Jews suddenly lose that former enthusiasm for freedom. Short version: Paul Gottfried was right.

    The third chart can be read as a gauge of who-whom-ism. Jews win. By a long shot. The least who-whom-ish are oldsters and Republicans (who are disproportionately white gentiles), followed closely by blacks. [I'm ignoring the Low Wordsum Scorers, who probably didn't understand the question.]

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    Given the that Jews are famously high in verbal (Wordsum) intelligence, you would think that Jews ought to be coming in somewhere between Whites at 64 and High Wordsum at 70. Instead, they’re way down at 59. Curious.

    Yes.

    Admittedly, I am trying not to be all anti-Semitic, all the time. The blogger and other respected persons here have repeatedly asked me to take a more balanced view, so I am trying.

    And although I avoid my Jewish friends these days because I don’t want the awkward topic to come up, I almost certainly have more, and closer, Jewish friends than most persons in this thread do. I slept in the same room with a Jew for two years in college: great guy. (In those days, few college students had PCs, but he had one: he let me do hundreds of hours of schoolwork on it, whether convenient for him or not. And he wasn’t the only Jew who treated me right. And then there’s my father, who had some pretty good experiences with two or three Jews who are now deceased.) So I have some personal reasons to find kind words for Jews when I can.

    But, yeah, my pro-Semitic read of the poll was a stretch.

  48. @Rufus Clyde
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Why such visceral fear of Soviet missiles? The US had a first-strike policy, the Soviets did not. The US actually nuked two cities, the Soviets did not. There is no historical precedent for the numbers killed as a result of US aerial bombardment, whether directly or from resulting collapses in infrastructure. My great uncle was part of the Allied occupation and attempted colonization of Siberia after the First World War. You won't find a single Russian who can accurately claim that one of his relations was involved in a similar campaign in the United States conducted by the Soviets.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Wency, @V. K. Ovelund

    Why such visceral fear of Soviet missiles?

    has given a better answer than I could, so I don’t know if I have much to add along that line; but may I ask: are you old enough to remember the fall of the Berlin Wall?

    [MORE]

    I served in the U.S. Army during the Cold War’s final decade—which hardly makes me special, nor insightful, but my comrades and I were young and took the Communist threat in deadly earnest. We trained to kill Commies. We practiced at targets with our M-16 rifles to kill Commies. We did pushups to kill Commies. And when we ran in formation for physical fitness, we did it to be able to run those Commie bastards down.

    And we didn’t think that there was anything remarkable about any of this.

    I remember this one, blond, big-boned, blue-eyed comrade of mine from Arkansas, a fellow Army private, a happy fellow with a massive chin-bone who struggled to keep his weight within the fairly stringent active-duty standards, who used to like to polish his battle-uniform boots to a mirror shine—so that, if a single speck of dust settled on the toe, the speck stood out. I remember sitting across the bench from him one Sunday afternoon in the barracks, both in green (or was it brown?) G.I. stockings with boots in hand, polishing. He’d been working on his shine for half an hour when his smile faded and he grew uncharacteristically serious. He told me, “Do you see these boots here? The first thing I’m going to do when the Commies attack is rub mud all over them, or some charcoal, and then—while the armorer is issuing us our rifles—I’m going to fire up the sergeant’s backhoe and dig us a trench. I’m going to make those Communists rue the day.”

    Those were different times.

    • Replies: @Rufus Clyde
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Wow, that was a long non sequitur you just emitted. I am old enough to remember the dismantling of the Berlin Wall, and served in the military briefly in the decade preceding the event. Your Arkansas dream-boat notwithstanding, whether or not you two were fired up to kill the Russians who were never, in a million years, coming through the Fulda Gap, is not a rational explantion for being afraid of a Soviet strike for the very reasons I cited. The US military has murdered millions in their homelands, while Americans have no such experience, unless you count the few thousand killed in 1941 at the naval base built on land stolen from the Hawaiians half a century earlier.

  49. @Chrisnonymous
    @dfordoom

    Maybe you should pay attention then. You apparently missed months of rioting by anarchists who think gender is evil because it creates hierarchy and a recent attempt by young day traders to fuck over big hedge funds. And for every person with a torch or a modem, I guarantee there are thousands of others. There are a lot of young people like AOC who speak about pie in the sky ideas about free stuff, and if you scratch them a little bit you'll discover that, without good grounding in Marxist thought or economics, they think we should strip people's wealth away but that it is just a bit beyond what's currently feasible politically. Moreover, as I said in the post you respond to, contradictory beliefs can be held at the same time.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    You apparently missed months of rioting by anarchists who think gender is evil because it creates hierarchy

    Gender and racial equality are pushed as substitutes for actual equality. They’re intended to distract people from the fact that actual inequality is steadily increasing.

    It’s not just wealth inequality that is increasing. The divides between socio-economic classes are becoming sharper and sharper. The contempt of the upper and upper middle classes for the lower classes grows steadily. The cultural and ideological gulfs between the privileged and non-privileged socio-economic classes grow ever wider.

    The upper and upper middle classes consider the lower classes to be barely human.

    I’m afraid I just don’t see the evidence for this supposed cult of equality.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @dfordoom

    No. Gender and race are just other facets of being than income or class. Income equality is not "real" equality while racial equality is "fake" equality. You are just seeing the current manifestation of radicalism is weighted more toward some aspects of being than others. Anyway, the Redditors that were happy to make hedge funds lose money were not focused on gender or race. Radicalism is a Janus, and SJWs show us one face, but the other appears from time to time as well. The fact that people are not marching and calling specifically for Jeff Bezos head on a platter does not mean they approve of his existence.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  50. @Chrisnonymous
    @Rufus Clyde

    You seem to be fixated on the Korean issue, which I did not contradict you about. If American flyers gave accurate accounts of war crimes, that is not an argument against the inhumaneness of Communism. In fact, it is entirely compatible with having experienced Thought Reform as described by Lifton, the techniques moving as they did among forces confessions of real facts and forced confessions of lies.

    Also, you conflate private torture recognized and condemned (Straight) with state-sponsored torture against which people are unable to speak out. These are not equivalent when the question at hand is the nature of the political system. Moreover, propaganda and Thought Reform are not at all morally equivalent. While propaganda may allow the U.S. gov't to control it's population and also lead people to live in mistaken beliefs, it is not traumatizing or violative of personal sovereignty in the same way. At all! (Propaganda is a feature of living in society and has existed since the earliest states. It is good to try to recognize and correct it, but suggesting it is a special feature of the capitalist West is foolish and counterproductive.). While I would class Guantanamo and some CIA black ops with Communist Thought Reform and condemn it, that kind of control mechanism is not a general feature of life in the West. Not yet anyway.

    So, I repeat again, unless you reject the veracity of any accounts in Lifton's work, which was done not only with servicemen but a variety of Chinese and expats targeted by the Revolution, it has merit to warn us about the lived experience of people under Communism. The possible reality of Korean flyers' accounts of biological warfare, and the misuse of Lifton's work by people in the U.S. are simply red herrings (or should I say Red herrings!).

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde

    You didn’t respond directly to my original reference to downed US flyers, and instead made a vague and unsupported claim about Chinese and Russian false confessions, so I responded with a single sentence expressing my belief that the confessions made by US flyers captured in Korea were genuine. I would argue that you characterization of that as fixation is a logical fallacy.
    Straight was absolutely not private, nor has it been condemned by the state which sponsored it. There is a significant documenation of US state involvement in an entire chain of thought reform programs, beginning with the Seed. These programs were sponsored by entities such as the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, and included human psychological experiments conducted on prisoners such as those conducted in Vacaville.
    Your claim that US propaganda affords the state control over the population while not being violative of personal sovereignty is absurd.
    The CIA was proven to be behind the Gladio terror events, as well as closely liaised to terrorists like Martin McGinness in Northern Ireland, and MI6 has proven time and again to be behind violence on both sides in Northern Ireland, all of which acts are methods of psychological warfare employed by the alleged democracies of the west, and are only the tip of the iceberg.
    You really are hilarious.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Rufus Clyde


    You didn’t respond directly to my original reference to downed US flyers, and instead made a vague and unsupported claim about Chinese and Russian false confessions, so I responded with a single sentence expressing my belief that the confessions made by US flyers captured in Korea were genuine. I would argue that you characterization of that as fixation is a logical fallacy.
     
    I did respond that "This is quite separate from the question of US biological warfare in the early Cold War," which meant that I rejected the argument you were implicitly making that the truth status of US flyers' confessions about war crimes delegitimized all reports about Maoist political coercion described by Lifton. The specific question of whether US flyers were or were not telling the truth about biological weapons does not answer the question of whether Maoist Thought Reform existed. Regarding Communist extraction of false confessions in general, we apparently disagree, however if you have reason to believe that Lifton's work on Thought Reform is, in its totality, based on fabrications, I'd be interested to hear it.

    I'm afraid we're at an impasse with regard to "US Thought Reform". (1) While I understand that programs that receive money from the state and verbal support from politicians or bureaucrats make the state responsible for their actions to some extent, I don't agree that they make those programs "not private". (2) I do agree that the government (e.g., the CIA) conducting operations against non-military personnel and separate from judicial review falls into the same category as Maoist Thought Reform, but I disagree that these programs are characteristic of western democracy, even though we are in danger of that becoming the case in the future, even the near future. In fact, I would say the point of my original comment on this post was that the absence of art and literature dealing with these problems in recent human history is putting us at danger of repeating them. But your "capitalists are the real commies" equivalency is not accurate or helpful. (3) I think your comparison of propaganda to imprisonment and torture and the fear induced by the threat of it is the actual absurdity you claim my distinction to be.
  51. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Rufus Clyde


    Why such visceral fear of Soviet missiles?
     
    @Wency has given a better answer than I could, so I don't know if I have much to add along that line; but may I ask: are you old enough to remember the fall of the Berlin Wall?

    I served in the U.S. Army during the Cold War's final decade—which hardly makes me special, nor insightful, but my comrades and I were young and took the Communist threat in deadly earnest. We trained to kill Commies. We practiced at targets with our M-16 rifles to kill Commies. We did pushups to kill Commies. And when we ran in formation for physical fitness, we did it to be able to run those Commie bastards down.

    And we didn't think that there was anything remarkable about any of this.

    I remember this one, blond, big-boned, blue-eyed comrade of mine from Arkansas, a fellow Army private, a happy fellow with a massive chin-bone who struggled to keep his weight within the fairly stringent active-duty standards, who used to like to polish his battle-uniform boots to a mirror shine—so that, if a single speck of dust settled on the toe, the speck stood out. I remember sitting across the bench from him one Sunday afternoon in the barracks, both in green (or was it brown?) G.I. stockings with boots in hand, polishing. He'd been working on his shine for half an hour when his smile faded and he grew uncharacteristically serious. He told me, “Do you see these boots here? The first thing I'm going to do when the Commies attack is rub mud all over them, or some charcoal, and then—while the armorer is issuing us our rifles—I'm going to fire up the sergeant's backhoe and dig us a trench. I'm going to make those Communists rue the day.”

    Those were different times.

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde

    Wow, that was a long non sequitur you just emitted. I am old enough to remember the dismantling of the Berlin Wall, and served in the military briefly in the decade preceding the event. Your Arkansas dream-boat notwithstanding, whether or not you two were fired up to kill the Russians who were never, in a million years, coming through the Fulda Gap, is not a rational explantion for being afraid of a Soviet strike for the very reasons I cited. The US military has murdered millions in their homelands, while Americans have no such experience, unless you count the few thousand killed in 1941 at the naval base built on land stolen from the Hawaiians half a century earlier.

  52. @Wency
    @Rufus Clyde


    The US had a first-strike policy, the Soviets did not.
     
    I don't think anyone had a "first strike policy", but the Soviets did have a "no first use" policy only in their final years, which the Russian Federation rescinded. The distinction between the terms being that a first strike may indicate starting a war off with a nuclear attack, while refusing to commit to "no first use" simply means that you might use nukes if you're being conventionally overrun.

    But the fact of the matter is that both sides were insisting their nuclear arsenals and the conventional build-up in Central Europe were defensive and that they had no interest in fighting WW3, and this seems to have been largely true, but there was a lack of trust and both sides doubted the honesty of the other. Thus the US never committed to refusing to use nukes if the Soviets launched a blitz through the Fulda Gap.

    I think growing up in America as it once was, it was hard to understand how anyone could be afraid of us. The thought process was something like:

    "It is plain to all that we're the good guys, lovers of peace, slow to anger and provoked to righteous fury only by evils that shock the soul. Anyone who says they're afraid of us must be
    afraid because they're contemplating or partaking in just such evils."

    Honestly I would guess that a majority of Republican voters would still agree with these statements, or something like them, to this day. The left's oikophobia actually makes normiecons double down on their naive patriotic assertions about an America that is actually dominated by the left they despise.

    That said, I also stay away from equivocating too much between the two sides in the Cold War. The evils of Soviet oppression were, in fact, much worse than anything the US did. Our leading fear for the West is that it seems to be becoming more like the Soviet system, but even in its present degenerate state it still has a very, very long way to fall.

    But yes, we should also be able to see how a Russia that in living memory had come close to being completely overrun by Western anti-Communists in WW2 could, in fact, be legitimately concerned during the Cold War about dangers from a West in which anti-Communism remained, in some cases, a matter of religious conviction.

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde

    Presenting you with facts that conflict with your sentiments, because you don’t even hold opinions, produces aphasia.
    There were a number of US and British plans to destroy the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons in the period between the end of the Second World War and the advent of the Soviet nuclear arsenal. If that does not constitute a first-strike policy, I fail to see what else could. The Soviet publicly declared that they would not use nuclear weapons first during the period of Brezhnev’s leadership.
    There is no state entity in the world that has murdered people on the scale of the apparatus of the United States of America. Nobody else burning cities to the ground like the US did in Japan, nobody killing 20% of a nation’s population as the US did in Korea, nobody poisoning the countryside in the manner of the US in Vietnam.
    The US and it’s proxies overthrew sovereign governments all over the world, while screeching that international communism was about to subvert everyone on earth.
    The Nazi horde that drove to the gates of Stalingrad was hard-pressed to murder people with the bloody fruitfulness of the US Air Force.
    Your world-view is less rooted in reality than an episode of the Flintstones.
    https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/cold-war-on-file/operation-unthinkable/
    “The 1949 Dropshot plan envisaged that the US would attack Soviet Russia and drop at least 300 nuclear bombs and 20,000 tons of conventional bombs on 200 targets in 100 urban areas, including Moscow and Leningrad (St. Petersburg). In addition, the planners offered to kick off a major land campaign against the USSR to win a “complete victory” over the Soviet Union together with the European allies. According to the plan Washington would start the war on January 1, 1957.”
    https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/from-1945-49-the-us-and-uk-planned-to-bomb-russia-into-the-stone-age

    I can’t think of much more opressive acts than the CIA-sponsored program that Ewen Cameron ran in Montreal, which was only one of over one hundred aspects of MK Ultra.

    Here’s another example of CIA manipulation of the population:

    The Reds were bumbling amateurs compared to the US Thought Reform machine.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Rufus Clyde


    Here’s another example of CIA manipulation of the population....
     
    I don't ever recall seeing @Wency defend the CIA, nor any of those other things you mention. If he did, the defense was incidental.

    Are you sure that you're debating the right persons? You seem to be pushing against an open door.

    I took @Wency merely to be illustrating the mindset of patriotic Americans of a lost era.

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde

  53. @Rufus Clyde
    @Wency

    Presenting you with facts that conflict with your sentiments, because you don't even hold opinions, produces aphasia.
    There were a number of US and British plans to destroy the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons in the period between the end of the Second World War and the advent of the Soviet nuclear arsenal. If that does not constitute a first-strike policy, I fail to see what else could. The Soviet publicly declared that they would not use nuclear weapons first during the period of Brezhnev's leadership.
    There is no state entity in the world that has murdered people on the scale of the apparatus of the United States of America. Nobody else burning cities to the ground like the US did in Japan, nobody killing 20% of a nation's population as the US did in Korea, nobody poisoning the countryside in the manner of the US in Vietnam.
    The US and it's proxies overthrew sovereign governments all over the world, while screeching that international communism was about to subvert everyone on earth.
    The Nazi horde that drove to the gates of Stalingrad was hard-pressed to murder people with the bloody fruitfulness of the US Air Force.
    Your world-view is less rooted in reality than an episode of the Flintstones.
    https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/cold-war-on-file/operation-unthinkable/
    "The 1949 Dropshot plan envisaged that the US would attack Soviet Russia and drop at least 300 nuclear bombs and 20,000 tons of conventional bombs on 200 targets in 100 urban areas, including Moscow and Leningrad (St. Petersburg). In addition, the planners offered to kick off a major land campaign against the USSR to win a “complete victory” over the Soviet Union together with the European allies. According to the plan Washington would start the war on January 1, 1957."
    https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/from-1945-49-the-us-and-uk-planned-to-bomb-russia-into-the-stone-age

    I can't think of much more opressive acts than the CIA-sponsored program that Ewen Cameron ran in Montreal, which was only one of over one hundred aspects of MK Ultra.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOjMQT5dvN8

    Here's another example of CIA manipulation of the population:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XibCflWxZuA

    The Reds were bumbling amateurs compared to the US Thought Reform machine.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    Here’s another example of CIA manipulation of the population….

    I don’t ever recall seeing defend the CIA, nor any of those other things you mention. If he did, the defense was incidental.

    Are you sure that you’re debating the right persons? You seem to be pushing against an open door.

    I took merely to be illustrating the mindset of patriotic Americans of a lost era.

    • Agree: Wency
    • Replies: @Rufus Clyde
    @V. K. Ovelund

    "I don’t ever recall seeing @Wency defend the CIA, nor any of those other things you mention."

    Do you ever make a reply in these forums that does not begin with a logical fallacy?

    "The evils of Soviet oppression were, in fact, much worse than anything the US did. "

    It's hard to say when the US public education system went to shit, but clearly some time before you and Wendy were inculcated with an infantile view of the world while failing to learn basic reading comprehension.

    Replies: @Wency

  54. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Rufus Clyde


    Here’s another example of CIA manipulation of the population....
     
    I don't ever recall seeing @Wency defend the CIA, nor any of those other things you mention. If he did, the defense was incidental.

    Are you sure that you're debating the right persons? You seem to be pushing against an open door.

    I took @Wency merely to be illustrating the mindset of patriotic Americans of a lost era.

    Replies: @Rufus Clyde

    “I don’t ever recall seeing defend the CIA, nor any of those other things you mention.”

    Do you ever make a reply in these forums that does not begin with a logical fallacy?

    “The evils of Soviet oppression were, in fact, much worse than anything the US did. ”

    It’s hard to say when the US public education system went to shit, but clearly some time before you and Wendy were inculcated with an infantile view of the world while failing to learn basic reading comprehension.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @Rufus Clyde

    Yeah, I'm not going to engage any more with you here. You're needlessly rude and combative, and worst of all, you don't even seem to get the point of anything I said. I'm not here to argue with people, I'm here to get closer to truth.

  55. @Rufus Clyde
    @V. K. Ovelund

    "I don’t ever recall seeing @Wency defend the CIA, nor any of those other things you mention."

    Do you ever make a reply in these forums that does not begin with a logical fallacy?

    "The evils of Soviet oppression were, in fact, much worse than anything the US did. "

    It's hard to say when the US public education system went to shit, but clearly some time before you and Wendy were inculcated with an infantile view of the world while failing to learn basic reading comprehension.

    Replies: @Wency

    Yeah, I’m not going to engage any more with you here. You’re needlessly rude and combative, and worst of all, you don’t even seem to get the point of anything I said. I’m not here to argue with people, I’m here to get closer to truth.

    • Agree: Yahya K.
  56. @dfordoom
    @Chrisnonymous


    You apparently missed months of rioting by anarchists who think gender is evil because it creates hierarchy
     
    Gender and racial equality are pushed as substitutes for actual equality. They're intended to distract people from the fact that actual inequality is steadily increasing.

    It's not just wealth inequality that is increasing. The divides between socio-economic classes are becoming sharper and sharper. The contempt of the upper and upper middle classes for the lower classes grows steadily. The cultural and ideological gulfs between the privileged and non-privileged socio-economic classes grow ever wider.

    The upper and upper middle classes consider the lower classes to be barely human.

    I'm afraid I just don't see the evidence for this supposed cult of equality.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    No. Gender and race are just other facets of being than income or class. Income equality is not “real” equality while racial equality is “fake” equality. You are just seeing the current manifestation of radicalism is weighted more toward some aspects of being than others. Anyway, the Redditors that were happy to make hedge funds lose money were not focused on gender or race. Radicalism is a Janus, and SJWs show us one face, but the other appears from time to time as well. The fact that people are not marching and calling specifically for Jeff Bezos head on a platter does not mean they approve of his existence.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Chrisnonymous


    The fact that people are not marching and calling specifically for Jeff Bezos head on a platter does not mean they approve of his existence.
     
    When there's a concerted campaign to redistribute the wealth of billionaires I'll believe you that this cult of equality exists.
  57. @Rufus Clyde
    @Chrisnonymous

    You didn't respond directly to my original reference to downed US flyers, and instead made a vague and unsupported claim about Chinese and Russian false confessions, so I responded with a single sentence expressing my belief that the confessions made by US flyers captured in Korea were genuine. I would argue that you characterization of that as fixation is a logical fallacy.
    Straight was absolutely not private, nor has it been condemned by the state which sponsored it. There is a significant documenation of US state involvement in an entire chain of thought reform programs, beginning with the Seed. These programs were sponsored by entities such as the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, and included human psychological experiments conducted on prisoners such as those conducted in Vacaville.
    Your claim that US propaganda affords the state control over the population while not being violative of personal sovereignty is absurd.
    The CIA was proven to be behind the Gladio terror events, as well as closely liaised to terrorists like Martin McGinness in Northern Ireland, and MI6 has proven time and again to be behind violence on both sides in Northern Ireland, all of which acts are methods of psychological warfare employed by the alleged democracies of the west, and are only the tip of the iceberg.
    You really are hilarious.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    You didn’t respond directly to my original reference to downed US flyers, and instead made a vague and unsupported claim about Chinese and Russian false confessions, so I responded with a single sentence expressing my belief that the confessions made by US flyers captured in Korea were genuine. I would argue that you characterization of that as fixation is a logical fallacy.

    I did respond that “This is quite separate from the question of US biological warfare in the early Cold War,” which meant that I rejected the argument you were implicitly making that the truth status of US flyers’ confessions about war crimes delegitimized all reports about Maoist political coercion described by Lifton. The specific question of whether US flyers were or were not telling the truth about biological weapons does not answer the question of whether Maoist Thought Reform existed. Regarding Communist extraction of false confessions in general, we apparently disagree, however if you have reason to believe that Lifton’s work on Thought Reform is, in its totality, based on fabrications, I’d be interested to hear it.

    I’m afraid we’re at an impasse with regard to “US Thought Reform”. (1) While I understand that programs that receive money from the state and verbal support from politicians or bureaucrats make the state responsible for their actions to some extent, I don’t agree that they make those programs “not private”. (2) I do agree that the government (e.g., the CIA) conducting operations against non-military personnel and separate from judicial review falls into the same category as Maoist Thought Reform, but I disagree that these programs are characteristic of western democracy, even though we are in danger of that becoming the case in the future, even the near future. In fact, I would say the point of my original comment on this post was that the absence of art and literature dealing with these problems in recent human history is putting us at danger of repeating them. But your “capitalists are the real commies” equivalency is not accurate or helpful. (3) I think your comparison of propaganda to imprisonment and torture and the fear induced by the threat of it is the actual absurdity you claim my distinction to be.

  58. @Chrisnonymous
    @dfordoom

    No. Gender and race are just other facets of being than income or class. Income equality is not "real" equality while racial equality is "fake" equality. You are just seeing the current manifestation of radicalism is weighted more toward some aspects of being than others. Anyway, the Redditors that were happy to make hedge funds lose money were not focused on gender or race. Radicalism is a Janus, and SJWs show us one face, but the other appears from time to time as well. The fact that people are not marching and calling specifically for Jeff Bezos head on a platter does not mean they approve of his existence.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    The fact that people are not marching and calling specifically for Jeff Bezos head on a platter does not mean they approve of his existence.

    When there’s a concerted campaign to redistribute the wealth of billionaires I’ll believe you that this cult of equality exists.

  59. @Anonymous
    WORDSUM high scorers đź‘Š

    Where can I find a WORDSUM test to take? I’ve seen a sample test (sans the correct answers) but never the real thing.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    See here.

  60. @Chrisnonymous
    Thanks. This is a very interesting analysis. The four demographics with the greatest gap between "Racists" and "Communists" are Jews, Millennials, Asians, and Foreign Born--that doesn't bode well for the future of the USA or of free society generally.

    There is a really serious educational issue with Communism. I am convinced that a lot of people, especially young people (as born out in the graphs), are mostly ignorant of what life under Communism was like. One of the greatest failures of Hollywood is the absence of movies about life under Communism. Even movies like "The Lives of Others" doesn't really do enough to feature the oppression. I don't know any movies about the Gulag or Maoist Thought Reform.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Bardon Kaldian, @unit472, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Rufus Clyde, @J1234, @Supply and Demand, @anon, @Three of Swords, @Audacious Epigone

    The Death of Stalin is an eccentric comedy-drama that incidentally depicts life in the Soviet Union as unambiguously horrific. Surprisingly, it was made in 2017.

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