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One of the common objections to political dissolution is that the idea is dead on arrival because the cultural commissars will never let the others go. A recent poll from Bright Line Watc h casts doubt on that presumption. It found 29% of Americans in support (10% strongly, 19% somewhat) of the US breaking up into five smaller regional unions. Regional support by political orientation is as follows:

Of particular interest to the objection above is that in blue regions, Democrats are more supportive of secession while in red regions, Republicans are. The country’s political, cultural, and technological power centers are in the Northeast and on the West Coast. Democrat support is relatively high in those regions, 34% and 41% respectively. Conversely, in the one region the right has some cultural influence, half of Republicans are on board with the putatively ‘fringe’ secession position.

This is the opposite of what we would expect if the strongest resistance to dissolution will come from dominant forces not wanting to cede the scope of their dominance.

Maybe we shouldn’t expect that. These results make sense. If you’re a progressive in California, you own the state and local governments, and the culture they exist in, from top to bottom. The biggest obstacle to getting what you want is the influence of a state like Texas on federal legislation and enforcement. What do you need that retrograde deadweight for? Get out from under Texas’ weight and you can do whatever you want to. The converse case for conservatives in flyover country is even more obvious.

Rather than regional strong horses worried about ceding their ability to bully other parts of the country, the greatest resistance to the idea of political dissolution comes from Democrats in Redland and to a lesser extent Republicans in Blueistan. That is a tougher problem. These people don’t want to be left to twist in the wind. The solution may be more of what already occurs when people move out of progressive states like California and into conservative states like Idaho and Wyoming.

 
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  1. The South would become the most powerful section of the former US due to weather, oil, agriculture, and access to major shipping ports. The North outsourced pretty much all of their manufacturing capabilities, Detroit doesn’t make cars any more, California and the west coast switched over to legal weed & caters to criminal’s rights. Inland states without access to ports would be beholden to the South who do, so huge tariffs could be used as leverage.

    • Replies: @CCZ
    @Sick 'n Tired

    But, what about the effects of the racial demographics variable?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DT7glEDVwAEgAH2.jpg

    https://i.redd.it/nq5infgiq0i01.png

    Replies: @indocon, @Sick 'n Tired, @Truth, @Almost Missouri

    , @Supply and Demand
    @Sick 'n Tired

    I really hope the South breaks off so that the Chinese voting machines installed by the GOP aristocracy (after sufficient bribery) enforce a black-run tinpot. White Southerners should be forced to stew in the demographic soup they imported with the burner on max. Cheers from Dalian.

    Replies: @RebelWriter

  2. Separate financially. Starve the beasts. Crush the tyrants by their small balls.
    Do not deal in petrodollars. Barter and trade skills.

    Do not pay taxes to your enemies. Dump the petrodollar like Russia and China have.
    Crush the Judeans at their pocketbooks. Burn their shekels.

    Use your ingenuity and skill ONLY FOR YOUR OWN.
    Do not assist, RESIST. Don’t help, ALLOW THEM TO FAIL.

    Separate yourself from their lifeline of petrobucks.
    Separate from their ONLY HOLD on you.

    Sabotage, Subvert and Smile.
    OVERTHROW THE SYSTEM by STARVING IT OF YOUR ASSISTANCE.

    • Agree: Juckett
  3. Not happening. Any form of succession would end the fiat dollar and therefore force all sections to live within their means. Progs hardest hit.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @james wilson


    s[e]cession would end the fiat dollar
     
    The arrow of causation runs both ways. Largesse doled out in fiat dollars is what is currently holding back secession. When the dollar breaks from over-printing, expect a rush for the exits.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    , @indocon
    @james wilson

    You have it in reverse, the end of the dollar would lead to end of USA as we know it.

  4. @Sick 'n Tired
    The South would become the most powerful section of the former US due to weather, oil, agriculture, and access to major shipping ports. The North outsourced pretty much all of their manufacturing capabilities, Detroit doesn't make cars any more, California and the west coast switched over to legal weed & caters to criminal's rights. Inland states without access to ports would be beholden to the South who do, so huge tariffs could be used as leverage.

    Replies: @CCZ, @Supply and Demand

    But, what about the effects of the racial demographics variable?

    • Replies: @indocon
    @CCZ

    If pushed to choose car Hispanics will become white in droves overnight, and rump Americans whites should welcome them. That takes care of the south west , I see liberal whites being pushed to 2 enclaves in north east and north west, this will lead the AAs, mostly likely you are going to have to give them Georgia to create new Wakanda, that's it, clean split of county happens.

    Replies: @Luzzatto

    , @Sick 'n Tired
    @CCZ

    In the case of each region becoming it's own entity, reliant on itself and trading with the others, the wheat would be separated from the chaff rather quickly. I still stand by my original statement if the US broke up into separate countries like in the original graph. If it was broken up by racial boundries, like on the maps you presented, the South would become like S. Africa, the only question is whether it would be pre or post Mandela S. Africa?

    Replies: @Wency

    , @Truth
    @CCZ

    Enjoy that weather.

    , @Almost Missouri
    @CCZ

    Except for Hawaii (plurality Asian), every state is plurality white.

    Except for Hawaii, California and New Mexico, every state is plurality non-Hispanic white.

    Except for the above, plus Texas and Nevada, every state is majority non-Hispanic white.

    As indocon suggests, most Hispanics are aspirationally white. If they had wanted to live in Central America, they would have stayed home. Offered a choice between neo-Central America and a "white" country, they will choose white. Ditto Asians.

    In a straight-up race referendum by state, white will win, hard.

    The only race with aspirations for self-determination are blacks, and that is a) delusional and b) probably not even a majority of blacks. Most blacks understand that everything that works for their benefit is run by whites, and those that don't would figure it out pretty quickly.

    Contra the graphics in this comment, the Old South (green in the first graphic) is in good shape racially. Mississippi has the narrowest white majority, and that is a 19 percentage point lead of whites over blacks. All the other Old South states have even larger white majorities. The only place in the US with a black plurality is the District of Columbia, which is a) not a State, and b) they made their bed, let them lie in it a while.

    This is not to say that the Left is not hard at work undermining this situation. They are. So there is no reason to extend the status quo artificially while they continue their pernicious work. The sooner everyone gets self-determination, the sooner the rot can stop.

    Replies: @Curle, @Luzzatto

  5. The big problem with dissolution even if it could be done amicably and equitably is that the power mad would no longer have a vehicle with which to achieve their perverted dreams of world hegemony. We’re all in that game whether we want to be or not and no one will be allowed out from underneath the accompanying crushing debt and tax burden. Though history tells us that all empires ultimately collapse or are destroyed due to military adventuring each empire always believes they will disprove this rule. Hasn’t happened yet.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Anita Patel


    The big problem with dissolution even if it could be done amicably and equitably is that the power mad would no longer have a vehicle with which to achieve their perverted dreams of world hegemony.
     
    That sounds like a benefit not a problem. The power-mad perverts no longer have a vehicle? Sign us up!

    We’re all in that game whether we want to be or not
     
    True dat. Which is why it is incumbent upon everyone to support self-determination now, before the power-mad perverts have their way with us.

    no one will be allowed out from underneath the accompanying crushing debt and tax burden.
     
    That is certainly the plan of the power-mad perverts. There is no reason to let them do it, though.

    Are former Soviet republics still under the debt burden of the Soviet ruble? Ah, the joys of secession.

    Though history tells us that all empires ultimately collapse or are destroyed due to military adventuring each empire always believes they will disprove this rule. Hasn’t happened yet.
     
    Yes, this is coming one way or another. That's why we must ensure that it occurs in the most beneficial way possible.
    , @Rahan
    @Anita Patel


    The big problem with dissolution even if it could be done amicably and equitably is that the power mad would no longer have a vehicle with which to achieve their perverted dreams of world hegemony.
     
    During the Soviet disintegration, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia really thought they would become a bunch of Denmarks, and that the only thing holding them back was Moscow.

    Many Ukrainians thought they'd be the Eastern France within a decade.

    The "party barons" controlling places like Georgia, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, and so on, simply saw the chance to create their own fiefdoms where no one else gets to tell them what they can and can't do. And they did achieve this.

    So you have two sets of motivations:
    1) the delusion that for example California and NY are being "held back" by the heartland states, and the moment those are gone, California and NY will become "like Europe but better".
    2) the power-craving of having no one else to cancel out your whims.

    Those are powerful. If the hypothetical indie California and NY are allowed to hold on to UK/France level nuclear arsenals and get automatic chairs in various top level international meetings and security councils and shit, which will make them think that their international standing and ability to project force will not decline too much--they're good to go.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @Anita Patel

    Another way to look at it, though, is that the power mad will have less opposition. Smaller pond, but fewer fish to compete against as well.

  6. According to the survey, Dixie wants out.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @V. K. Ovelund


    According to the survey, Dixie wants out.
     
    I certainly do. One demand: Dixie gets West Virginia back.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

  7. Hooey. There is a lot more water due to run underneath the bridge before there is any kind of formal separation of the no longer united states. And the events of this summer clearly indicate that the right (a loose and inaccurate description, but the best we seem to have) is unwilling to actually fight, and the left (dittos) would be foolish to give up the asset without an existential threat. So the right is virtually politically enslaved for a while.

    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Brian Reilly

    True. But the fact that the subject is brought up in a semi-serious manner at all tells you something.

  8. What jumps out at me is that even in regions where Republicans know they will end up in the permanent minority, their support for secession is still relatively strong, while in redder regions were Dems will be minorities, Dem support for secession is vanishing weak. This implies that contrary to their #Resistance propaganda, Dems know perfectly well that they already run everything nationally, so they are terrified of a secession that would put them in the minority of a sovereign body. By contrast, Repubs know that they have no power now, the so the structural change of secession holds fewer fears for them.

    Be all that as it may, I continue to believe that the way to approach secession is not in arbitrary regional blocs, but county-by-county (or parish for Louisianans). It is the lowest level of consequential government, so it is the most granular and individuated self-determination (remember when we fought wars for self-determination?). It is also relatively consistent administratively across states, and includes all non-Federal lands, so it is comprehensive. It would also instantly liberate the 5/6 of American counties from the 1/6 that rule over them.

    • Agree: ThreeCranes
    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Almost Missouri

    How could you have, for example, a gun controlled county next to a concealed carry county?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Almost Missouri

    , @WorkingClass
    @Almost Missouri


    I continue to believe that the way to approach secession is not in arbitrary regional blocs, but county-by-county (or parish for Louisianans).
     
    Coalitions of red counties could cross state lines. One or more new republics and/or autonomous zones could emerge looking like gerrymandered congressional districts.

    Constitutional Sheriffs And Peace Officers Association
    https://cspoa.org/
     
    Let them have the shit hole cities and the District of Corruption.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    , @MBlanc46
    @Almost Missouri

    Exactly right, AM. This can’t be solved top down. The only way to break up the monstrosity is from the bottom up, even block by block, slowly withdrawing, refusing to participate.

  9. Separation requires large scale population transfers, a la Pakistan-India. That would be a bloody mess, with hundreds of thousands or millions being killed. Afterwards there would have to be rigorous border controls restricting movement. No more driving from Florida to Maine to visit granny for Thanksgiving.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @bob sykes

    The Soviet Union successfully devolved into its constituent parts without killing millions, or even thousands.

    When you consider that Federal perversities already get thousands killed every year, then the Sovieterdammerung model looks like a great bargain.

    #EndTheEvilEmpire #SelfDeterminationNow

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @JL, @Mike Tre

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @bob sykes

    Just like people don't drive from New York to Ontario to visit family now?

    Replies: @Another Canadian

    , @Chris Mallory
    @bob sykes

    The 20th Century was filled with population transfers and break ups of countries. The question is will we have a Czech/Slovak separation or a Yugoslav separation.

  10. @james wilson
    Not happening. Any form of succession would end the fiat dollar and therefore force all sections to live within their means. Progs hardest hit.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @indocon

    s[e]cession would end the fiat dollar

    The arrow of causation runs both ways. Largesse doled out in fiat dollars is what is currently holding back secession. When the dollar breaks from over-printing, expect a rush for the exits.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Almost Missouri


    When the dollar breaks from over-printing....
     
    Over-printing inflates the dollar. As far as I know, it does not break it.

    By ceasing to accept the dollar in payment, China can break it. I assume that China is awaiting a propitious moment to do so, regardless of over-printing.

    AE does not want this problem solved, for the problem if unsolved promotes dissolution. However, I do not want dissolution and thus do want the problem solved. I want the U.S. to forestall precipitate Chinese action by negotiating a gradual replacement of the dollar by IMF special drawing rights (XDR) as the unit of international account. Such forestallment should be eminently achievable on terms that are favorable to both China and the United States.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @RoatanBill, @Yahya K.

  11. @bob sykes
    Separation requires large scale population transfers, a la Pakistan-India. That would be a bloody mess, with hundreds of thousands or millions being killed. Afterwards there would have to be rigorous border controls restricting movement. No more driving from Florida to Maine to visit granny for Thanksgiving.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Audacious Epigone, @Chris Mallory

    The Soviet Union successfully devolved into its constituent parts without killing millions, or even thousands.

    When you consider that Federal perversities already get thousands killed every year, then the Sovieterdammerung model looks like a great bargain.

    #EndTheEvilEmpire #SelfDeterminationNow

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Almost Missouri

    Did many people previously drive from Kyiv to Moscow to visit grandma?

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    , @JL
    @Almost Missouri


    The Soviet Union successfully devolved into its constituent parts without killing millions, or even thousands.
     
    Hundreds of thousands of people died in subsequent wars in the former republics, which included, inter alia, Chechnya, Armenia/Azerbaijan, Tajikistan civil war, and Transdnestria. This is not to even mention the 90s horror that befell Russia itself, which saw the largest peacetime demographic hit ever recorded, with male life expectancy falling into the low 50s. To call the devolution successful, with wars constantly being fought in the constituent republics to this very day, takes a fair amount of creativity.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone, @Almost Missouri

    , @Mike Tre
    @Almost Missouri

    The Soviet Union did not have a parasitic African underclass of 40 million. Look, all this talk of dollars, ports, economies, who gets where, are certainly important, but the great big elephant in the room are of course, the negroes. None of the former matter if the latter has a say or is expected to pull their weight, economically, socially, or civically. They are by nature incapable of functioning in a first world society as a population, unless of course, you mean to once again subject them to intensive local authority (see the pre civil rights south)?

    All the separate nations talk, even in Sailer's comment section, ignore the NQ. What are to be done with them? Despite whatever they say, they will always seek out the productivity of the Euro descended people. The separate nation that agrees to take in the negroes will soon be appealing to the nations that did not for assistance with their negro problem. Here, in the comments, it is easy to say "we'll never take them!" but in reality, I seriously doubt that.

    Right out of the gate, they will go on the dole in the leftist nations and attempt to steal from the other nations.

    And we haven't even talked about the southwest and south central Asians who are pretty much unassimilable; vile, dim, hostile, dirty, dishonest that they are.

    What are your separate nations going to do with these people? Because if the people who make up these separate nations don't change, then you're just going to end up with smaller versions of the original and failing United States. And if the solution is mass relocation into the new separate nation best suited for them, who not just send them packing back to their country of origin in the first place, and not concede any part of the existing US to them at all?

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  12. @Almost Missouri
    What jumps out at me is that even in regions where Republicans know they will end up in the permanent minority, their support for secession is still relatively strong, while in redder regions were Dems will be minorities, Dem support for secession is vanishing weak. This implies that contrary to their #Resistance propaganda, Dems know perfectly well that they already run everything nationally, so they are terrified of a secession that would put them in the minority of a sovereign body. By contrast, Repubs know that they have no power now, the so the structural change of secession holds fewer fears for them.

    Be all that as it may, I continue to believe that the way to approach secession is not in arbitrary regional blocs, but county-by-county (or parish for Louisianans). It is the lowest level of consequential government, so it is the most granular and individuated self-determination (remember when we fought wars for self-determination?). It is also relatively consistent administratively across states, and includes all non-Federal lands, so it is comprehensive. It would also instantly liberate the 5/6 of American counties from the 1/6 that rule over them.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @WorkingClass, @MBlanc46

    How could you have, for example, a gun controlled county next to a concealed carry county?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Chrisnonymous


    How could you have, for example, a gun controlled county next to a concealed carry county?

     

    You could control guns by race rather than county. Democrats have a couple centuries experience to draw on.
    , @Almost Missouri
    @Chrisnonymous

    Same way as now.

  13. @Almost Missouri
    @bob sykes

    The Soviet Union successfully devolved into its constituent parts without killing millions, or even thousands.

    When you consider that Federal perversities already get thousands killed every year, then the Sovieterdammerung model looks like a great bargain.

    #EndTheEvilEmpire #SelfDeterminationNow

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @JL, @Mike Tre

    Did many people previously drive from Kyiv to Moscow to visit grandma?

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Chrisnonymous

    Perhaps. And perhaps today many travel from Kaliningrad to Moscow. The fact that they have to pass through "foreign" countries on the way is not necessarily a problem.

  14. Regional states probably wouldn’t work either, because the divide is not regional, but rural/urban (or urban/less urban). But perhaps it could be a first attempt.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @MBlanc46

    County-by-county FTW!

  15. Only one problem. Whites could move to Mars and Jews, Blacks, Browns, Yellows and every other nonwhite hue under the Sun would follow US there. You see, Jews and nonwhites love leeching off the sweat of racist, anti-Semitic, White Gentiles who oppress them. Weird isn’t it? Must be a nonwhite and Jewish thing because I don’t like to go where I am not wanted. Why do THESE PEOPLE follow Whites everywhere WE go?

    Split up America into sections and it would take only 6 months before all the Blue States looked like Port-au-Prince, Haiti. Word of advice to Texas, don’t let them ruin YOUR state like THEY did Florida.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Trinity

    That's an assertion made by many white identitarians but is it accurate? The South is the biggest internal migration magnet in the US and has been for decades, and it's less white than the rest of the country. There aren't a lot of non-whites following whites into West Virginia or Wyoming.

    Replies: @Trinity, @Stealth

    , @Truth
    @Trinity


    Only one problem. Whites could move to Mars and Jews, Blacks, Browns, Yellows and every other nonwhite hue under the Sun would follow US there.
     
    Why don't you give it a shot, Old Sport.

    Replies: @Trinity

    , @Sick of Orcs
    @Trinity

    Wholly agree!

    Whites could give the nons the other 49 states in exchange for Texas and in less than a month, guess who would come a-knockin'?

    Why it's Tyrone! With Shlomo hiding in the bushes feeding lines like Cyrano de Usury.

  16. @james wilson
    Not happening. Any form of succession would end the fiat dollar and therefore force all sections to live within their means. Progs hardest hit.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @indocon

    You have it in reverse, the end of the dollar would lead to end of USA as we know it.

    • Agree: RoatanBill
  17. This is one of the clearest surveys I have seen on the question of the session, I have been calling on these forums for a American white equivalent of Mohammad Ali Jinnah to emerge and create a white Pakistan out of USA.

  18. @CCZ
    @Sick 'n Tired

    But, what about the effects of the racial demographics variable?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DT7glEDVwAEgAH2.jpg

    https://i.redd.it/nq5infgiq0i01.png

    Replies: @indocon, @Sick 'n Tired, @Truth, @Almost Missouri

    If pushed to choose car Hispanics will become white in droves overnight, and rump Americans whites should welcome them. That takes care of the south west , I see liberal whites being pushed to 2 enclaves in north east and north west, this will lead the AAs, mostly likely you are going to have to give them Georgia to create new Wakanda, that’s it, clean split of county happens.

    • Replies: @Luzzatto
    @indocon

    Hispanics will not become White in droves. The vast majority of Latinos in The United States say White Gringos still see them as People Of Color and not as fellow White people. Even when they check the White box in The U.S census they are still not seen as White in White Gringo spaces!
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna365996

  19. @CCZ
    @Sick 'n Tired

    But, what about the effects of the racial demographics variable?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DT7glEDVwAEgAH2.jpg

    https://i.redd.it/nq5infgiq0i01.png

    Replies: @indocon, @Sick 'n Tired, @Truth, @Almost Missouri

    In the case of each region becoming it’s own entity, reliant on itself and trading with the others, the wheat would be separated from the chaff rather quickly. I still stand by my original statement if the US broke up into separate countries like in the original graph. If it was broken up by racial boundries, like on the maps you presented, the South would become like S. Africa, the only question is whether it would be pre or post Mandela S. Africa?

    • Replies: @Wency
    @Sick 'n Tired

    How many blacks do you think there are in the South? It peaks at roughly 30% of the population in the Deep South, that is SC/MS/GA/AL. In those places, the major cities have black majorities and there are substantial black rural populations as well, but suburbs are still very white and rural populations are still white majority as well.

    The Mid-South is more like the Midwest, closer to the 15% range, with rural areas entirely white, suburbs very white, and even many mid-sized cities themselves having outright white majorities.

    Replies: @Stealth

  20. @bob sykes
    Separation requires large scale population transfers, a la Pakistan-India. That would be a bloody mess, with hundreds of thousands or millions being killed. Afterwards there would have to be rigorous border controls restricting movement. No more driving from Florida to Maine to visit granny for Thanksgiving.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Audacious Epigone, @Chris Mallory

    Just like people don’t drive from New York to Ontario to visit family now?

    • Replies: @Another Canadian
    @Audacious Epigone

    No, due to the current border restrictions, they don't.

  21. @Trinity
    Only one problem. Whites could move to Mars and Jews, Blacks, Browns, Yellows and every other nonwhite hue under the Sun would follow US there. You see, Jews and nonwhites love leeching off the sweat of racist, anti-Semitic, White Gentiles who oppress them. Weird isn't it? Must be a nonwhite and Jewish thing because I don't like to go where I am not wanted. Why do THESE PEOPLE follow Whites everywhere WE go?

    Split up America into sections and it would take only 6 months before all the Blue States looked like Port-au-Prince, Haiti. Word of advice to Texas, don't let them ruin YOUR state like THEY did Florida.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone, @Truth, @Sick of Orcs

    That’s an assertion made by many white identitarians but is it accurate? The South is the biggest internal migration magnet in the US and has been for decades, and it’s less white than the rest of the country. There aren’t a lot of non-whites following whites into West Virginia or Wyoming.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Audacious Epigone

    Are you an American? EVERYONE KNOWS THAT FLEEING WHITE YANKEES ARE THE ONES MOVING SOUTH along with fleeing negroes whose ancestors fled the South decades ago. Regardless whether the fleeing Northerner is Black or White, most ARE NOT VERY WELCOME by Southern Whites and Southern Blacks because they try and change the South to be more like the places they ran away from. White Yankees did a great deal of damage to Florida and I am afraid fleeing White Californians will do damage to states like Texas, Nevada, Colorado, etc. These people run away from a place they helped ruin and then start demanding that their host do as they do.

    Your White Yankee isn't fleeing to the South because of negroes, you can take that to the bank. He or she, White Yankees that is, are flying to places like the foothills of Georgia, North and South Carolina or maybe the beach. Sure, some live on the outskirts of the big cities for work purposes but we get a lot of retired snowbirds fleeing their beloved Northern states because they only talk the talk and don't want to walk the walk. Better to live among law abiding rednecks and complain than live in leftist shitholes like New Yawk and Shitcago.

    Yankees running away from the North to live with narrow minded and bigoted Southerners, imagine that. "Yawl" helped RUIN FLORIDA, and now you are looking to do the same with other states like Georgia, Carolinas and Tennessee. Watch out, Texas, California is coming your way.

    , @Stealth
    @Audacious Epigone

    The South is actually quite nice, as long a you can stand heat, bugs and high humidity. My own corner of that region has its poor areas, but outside of that, you have a modern, first-world-looking housing stock, and most people don't see any reason to migrate to other areas of the country. Also, Southern towns and cities can be much prettier than their counterparts in the Northeast, where things appear as if they were designed in the first place to be ugly as sin. That entire of region looks like it's on life support, sporting many cities that would seem right at home in a third world country. To add insult to injury, buying just about any house costs a jillion dollars.

    Replies: @Anon

  22. @CCZ
    @Sick 'n Tired

    But, what about the effects of the racial demographics variable?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DT7glEDVwAEgAH2.jpg

    https://i.redd.it/nq5infgiq0i01.png

    Replies: @indocon, @Sick 'n Tired, @Truth, @Almost Missouri

    Enjoy that weather.

  23. @Trinity
    Only one problem. Whites could move to Mars and Jews, Blacks, Browns, Yellows and every other nonwhite hue under the Sun would follow US there. You see, Jews and nonwhites love leeching off the sweat of racist, anti-Semitic, White Gentiles who oppress them. Weird isn't it? Must be a nonwhite and Jewish thing because I don't like to go where I am not wanted. Why do THESE PEOPLE follow Whites everywhere WE go?

    Split up America into sections and it would take only 6 months before all the Blue States looked like Port-au-Prince, Haiti. Word of advice to Texas, don't let them ruin YOUR state like THEY did Florida.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone, @Truth, @Sick of Orcs

    Only one problem. Whites could move to Mars and Jews, Blacks, Browns, Yellows and every other nonwhite hue under the Sun would follow US there.

    Why don’t you give it a shot, Old Sport.

    • LOL: Nodwink
    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Truth

    You can bet your sweet chocolate covered ass that if 10 Whites set up camp on Mars, and started making a great go of things, it would take about a New York minute for millions of parasitical Blacks being led from behind by their Jewish overlords to set up camp on the Crimson Planet and start whining about "racism" "auntie Semitism", "muh holycost" and "muh slavery." Cue: Crimson and Clover by Tommy James & The Shondells or Joan Jett. I like both versions.

    It would take the rest of the nonwhite brigade longer to arrive since they are more capable of surviving on their own than inept, lazy, unskilled, Jews and Blacks. IF only Whites could truly separate from everyone else we could really watch the Jew and his alleged "high IQ" at work for once, see what it can really do without being oppressed by anti-Semitism. We could really find out if Blacks are capable of maintaining a real life Wakanda, much less actually building one.

    There will be no separation at least not as long as you have white traitor trash leftists, Blacks and Jews around. Arabs and Africans are nearly as lazy as the Black American and the Jew. Mexicans and other Hispanics? Hard workers for the most part but some bring some undesirable traits to the table and look at their home nations if you want to see how they live when not around Whites.

    Whites DO NOT BENEFIT BY LIVING AMONG NONWHITES, while NONWHITES BENEFIT GREATLY BY LIVING AMONG WHITES. Matter of fact, Whites suffer by living among nonwhites. It is crazy for Whites to want to import nonwhites who basically contribute nothing of any value and what little they contribute they negate by overloading our medical system, welfare system, destroy our cities, increase crime tenfold, abuse the system, etc., etc.

    IF this nation suddenly became 90% White, I would bet any amount you wish to bet that this nation would turn completely around in 5 years time. You would not even recognize America unless you were lucky enough to be around pre-1960s.

    Oh and all the Whites that live in backwoods states like Vermont and New Hampshire but they still love to spout about how they love diversity, they could move back with the Africans to Africa, or the Haitians to Haiti. Oy vey, maybe some would love to move to muh Israel as converts. Hava nagila hava nagila......

  24. @Chrisnonymous
    @Almost Missouri

    How could you have, for example, a gun controlled county next to a concealed carry county?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Almost Missouri

    How could you have, for example, a gun controlled county next to a concealed carry county?

    You could control guns by race rather than county. Democrats have a couple centuries experience to draw on.

    • LOL: Twinkie
  25. @V. K. Ovelund
    According to the survey, Dixie wants out.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    According to the survey, Dixie wants out.

    I certainly do. One demand: Dixie gets West Virginia back.

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Twinkie

    Does the curtain of states that runs from Missouri eastward through Illinois, Indiana, Ohio and Pennsylvania not include large numbers of citizens that would prefer to identify with Dixie? I do not mean Chicago or Cleveland, obviously, but St. Louis or Pittsburgh.

  26. JL says:
    @Almost Missouri
    @bob sykes

    The Soviet Union successfully devolved into its constituent parts without killing millions, or even thousands.

    When you consider that Federal perversities already get thousands killed every year, then the Sovieterdammerung model looks like a great bargain.

    #EndTheEvilEmpire #SelfDeterminationNow

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @JL, @Mike Tre

    The Soviet Union successfully devolved into its constituent parts without killing millions, or even thousands.

    Hundreds of thousands of people died in subsequent wars in the former republics, which included, inter alia, Chechnya, Armenia/Azerbaijan, Tajikistan civil war, and Transdnestria. This is not to even mention the 90s horror that befell Russia itself, which saw the largest peacetime demographic hit ever recorded, with male life expectancy falling into the low 50s. To call the devolution successful, with wars constantly being fought in the constituent republics to this very day, takes a fair amount of creativity.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @JL

    The people are better off than they were before the dissolution.

    Replies: @JL

    , @Almost Missouri
    @JL

    Chechnya and Transdnestria are examples of non-secession. Tajikistan was a case of thwarted secession. So all of these are examples of the perils of inhibiting secession, not the perils of allowing secession.

    Armenia/Azerbaijan was a war between two sovereign powers after they had seceded from the USSR. But then the war was to prevent the secession of the Nagorno-Karabakh from Azerbaijan to Armenia. So again, when secession is impeded, the blood starts to flow.

    Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan and Georgia, among others, all seceded from the Soviet Union with little or no violence.

    Similarly, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and East Germany had hundreds of thousands of Soviet troops stationed in them, yet they all managed to go their own way with nary a shot fired. Czechoslovakia later separated into Czechia and Slovakia, again, without violence.

    The US's worst-ever war was the Civil War, which was waged to prevent the South's legitimate secession.

    Preventing secession is indeed a bloody business, which is why no one who isn't a bloodthirsty maniac should be against it.

    Replies: @mark green

  27. @JL
    @Almost Missouri


    The Soviet Union successfully devolved into its constituent parts without killing millions, or even thousands.
     
    Hundreds of thousands of people died in subsequent wars in the former republics, which included, inter alia, Chechnya, Armenia/Azerbaijan, Tajikistan civil war, and Transdnestria. This is not to even mention the 90s horror that befell Russia itself, which saw the largest peacetime demographic hit ever recorded, with male life expectancy falling into the low 50s. To call the devolution successful, with wars constantly being fought in the constituent republics to this very day, takes a fair amount of creativity.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone, @Almost Missouri

    The people are better off than they were before the dissolution.

    • Replies: @JL
    @Audacious Epigone

    Millions of Soviet boomers from Dushanbe to Moscow would beg to differ. But it's not relevant to the point I was making anyway, which is that any secession would likely take its price in blood and short term treasure. Just because not many people cared about the wars in the FSU doesn't mean they didn't happen.

    FTR, I'm all for a breakup of the US. I might tell myself it's because of the welfare of its inhabitants, but really it's because I am sick of US hegemony and want it ended any which way possible. I don't care how people in the US live, my problem is when they tell people beyond their borders how they must live.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

  28. The situation is not a simple as the map depicts it.

  29. @Chrisnonymous
    @Almost Missouri

    How could you have, for example, a gun controlled county next to a concealed carry county?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Almost Missouri

    Same way as now.

  30. @CCZ
    @Sick 'n Tired

    But, what about the effects of the racial demographics variable?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DT7glEDVwAEgAH2.jpg

    https://i.redd.it/nq5infgiq0i01.png

    Replies: @indocon, @Sick 'n Tired, @Truth, @Almost Missouri

    Except for Hawaii (plurality Asian), every state is plurality white.

    Except for Hawaii, California and New Mexico, every state is plurality non-Hispanic white.

    Except for the above, plus Texas and Nevada, every state is majority non-Hispanic white.

    As indocon suggests, most Hispanics are aspirationally white. If they had wanted to live in Central America, they would have stayed home. Offered a choice between neo-Central America and a “white” country, they will choose white. Ditto Asians.

    In a straight-up race referendum by state, white will win, hard.

    The only race with aspirations for self-determination are blacks, and that is a) delusional and b) probably not even a majority of blacks. Most blacks understand that everything that works for their benefit is run by whites, and those that don’t would figure it out pretty quickly.

    Contra the graphics in this comment, the Old South (green in the first graphic) is in good shape racially. Mississippi has the narrowest white majority, and that is a 19 percentage point lead of whites over blacks. All the other Old South states have even larger white majorities. The only place in the US with a black plurality is the District of Columbia, which is a) not a State, and b) they made their bed, let them lie in it a while.

    This is not to say that the Left is not hard at work undermining this situation. They are. So there is no reason to extend the status quo artificially while they continue their pernicious work. The sooner everyone gets self-determination, the sooner the rot can stop.

    • Replies: @Curle
    @Almost Missouri

    Correct. Showing Washington as majority Asian is insane.

    , @Luzzatto
    @Almost Missouri

    Hispanics are NOT aspirationallly White. You come off as extremely low IQ.Hispanics are down with La Raza and they do NOT mean White Nationalism when they say La Raza they mean Brown Pride!
    https://youtu.be/HkEOAcuquRo

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

  31. @Anita Patel
    The big problem with dissolution even if it could be done amicably and equitably is that the power mad would no longer have a vehicle with which to achieve their perverted dreams of world hegemony. We're all in that game whether we want to be or not and no one will be allowed out from underneath the accompanying crushing debt and tax burden. Though history tells us that all empires ultimately collapse or are destroyed due to military adventuring each empire always believes they will disprove this rule. Hasn't happened yet.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Rahan, @Audacious Epigone

    The big problem with dissolution even if it could be done amicably and equitably is that the power mad would no longer have a vehicle with which to achieve their perverted dreams of world hegemony.

    That sounds like a benefit not a problem. The power-mad perverts no longer have a vehicle? Sign us up!

    We’re all in that game whether we want to be or not

    True dat. Which is why it is incumbent upon everyone to support self-determination now, before the power-mad perverts have their way with us.

    no one will be allowed out from underneath the accompanying crushing debt and tax burden.

    That is certainly the plan of the power-mad perverts. There is no reason to let them do it, though.

    Are former Soviet republics still under the debt burden of the Soviet ruble? Ah, the joys of secession.

    Though history tells us that all empires ultimately collapse or are destroyed due to military adventuring each empire always believes they will disprove this rule. Hasn’t happened yet.

    Yes, this is coming one way or another. That’s why we must ensure that it occurs in the most beneficial way possible.

  32. @Almost Missouri
    What jumps out at me is that even in regions where Republicans know they will end up in the permanent minority, their support for secession is still relatively strong, while in redder regions were Dems will be minorities, Dem support for secession is vanishing weak. This implies that contrary to their #Resistance propaganda, Dems know perfectly well that they already run everything nationally, so they are terrified of a secession that would put them in the minority of a sovereign body. By contrast, Repubs know that they have no power now, the so the structural change of secession holds fewer fears for them.

    Be all that as it may, I continue to believe that the way to approach secession is not in arbitrary regional blocs, but county-by-county (or parish for Louisianans). It is the lowest level of consequential government, so it is the most granular and individuated self-determination (remember when we fought wars for self-determination?). It is also relatively consistent administratively across states, and includes all non-Federal lands, so it is comprehensive. It would also instantly liberate the 5/6 of American counties from the 1/6 that rule over them.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @WorkingClass, @MBlanc46

    I continue to believe that the way to approach secession is not in arbitrary regional blocs, but county-by-county (or parish for Louisianans).

    Coalitions of red counties could cross state lines. One or more new republics and/or autonomous zones could emerge looking like gerrymandered congressional districts.

    Constitutional Sheriffs And Peace Officers Association
    https://cspoa.org/

    Let them have the shit hole cities and the District of Corruption.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @WorkingClass


    Coalitions of red counties could cross state lines.
     
    And that's a good thing.

    The simple truth is that about 3/4 - 5/6 of American counties are in broad agreement and could quickly find common interest if freed from the Federal yoke. That kind of territorial supermajority could also impose its will on the remainder of the former USA if it chose to. But it need not choose to. Maybe blue cities are better off festering in their own grime without the red outback to export their problems to and to leech off of. Does red America really need that hassle?

    Red America would already have Gulf and Great Lakes-to-St. Lawrence ports. Transatlantic shipping can travel up the Hudson River past NYC to redder landfall. To the extent red needs Eastern or Western seaboard ports, it could selectively and creatively extend it's reach to specifically just those resources that are necessary to it in blue America, "Special Economic Zones" and the like. Maybe Long Beach. Or, if it's feeling megalomaniac, it just could just declare all of blue America a "Special Economic Zone" under the suzerainty of red America. What're they gonna do about it, fight back from their gun-free zones?

    Red America ruling blue America is the natural order of things. We are currently living in the inversion of the natural order, where blue rules red (and does so incompetently, to add insult to injury). There is no reason to let this persist. Blue can have self-determination or not, at the discretion of red, the natural sovereign.
  33. @Truth
    @Trinity


    Only one problem. Whites could move to Mars and Jews, Blacks, Browns, Yellows and every other nonwhite hue under the Sun would follow US there.
     
    Why don't you give it a shot, Old Sport.

    Replies: @Trinity

    You can bet your sweet chocolate covered ass that if 10 Whites set up camp on Mars, and started making a great go of things, it would take about a New York minute for millions of parasitical Blacks being led from behind by their Jewish overlords to set up camp on the Crimson Planet and start whining about “racism” “auntie Semitism”, “muh holycost” and “muh slavery.” Cue: Crimson and Clover by Tommy James & The Shondells or Joan Jett. I like both versions.

    It would take the rest of the nonwhite brigade longer to arrive since they are more capable of surviving on their own than inept, lazy, unskilled, Jews and Blacks. IF only Whites could truly separate from everyone else we could really watch the Jew and his alleged “high IQ” at work for once, see what it can really do without being oppressed by anti-Semitism. We could really find out if Blacks are capable of maintaining a real life Wakanda, much less actually building one.

    There will be no separation at least not as long as you have white traitor trash leftists, Blacks and Jews around. Arabs and Africans are nearly as lazy as the Black American and the Jew. Mexicans and other Hispanics? Hard workers for the most part but some bring some undesirable traits to the table and look at their home nations if you want to see how they live when not around Whites.

    Whites DO NOT BENEFIT BY LIVING AMONG NONWHITES, while NONWHITES BENEFIT GREATLY BY LIVING AMONG WHITES. Matter of fact, Whites suffer by living among nonwhites. It is crazy for Whites to want to import nonwhites who basically contribute nothing of any value and what little they contribute they negate by overloading our medical system, welfare system, destroy our cities, increase crime tenfold, abuse the system, etc., etc.

    IF this nation suddenly became 90% White, I would bet any amount you wish to bet that this nation would turn completely around in 5 years time. You would not even recognize America unless you were lucky enough to be around pre-1960s.

    Oh and all the Whites that live in backwoods states like Vermont and New Hampshire but they still love to spout about how they love diversity, they could move back with the Africans to Africa, or the Haitians to Haiti. Oy vey, maybe some would love to move to muh Israel as converts. Hava nagila hava nagila……

  34. JL says:
    @Audacious Epigone
    @JL

    The people are better off than they were before the dissolution.

    Replies: @JL

    Millions of Soviet boomers from Dushanbe to Moscow would beg to differ. But it’s not relevant to the point I was making anyway, which is that any secession would likely take its price in blood and short term treasure. Just because not many people cared about the wars in the FSU doesn’t mean they didn’t happen.

    FTR, I’m all for a breakup of the US. I might tell myself it’s because of the welfare of its inhabitants, but really it’s because I am sick of US hegemony and want it ended any which way possible. I don’t care how people in the US live, my problem is when they tell people beyond their borders how they must live.

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Thanks: Polemos
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @JL

    It's even worse when they're telling people within their borders how to live. It's why we want out!

  35. @Chrisnonymous
    @Almost Missouri

    Did many people previously drive from Kyiv to Moscow to visit grandma?

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Perhaps. And perhaps today many travel from Kaliningrad to Moscow. The fact that they have to pass through “foreign” countries on the way is not necessarily a problem.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  36. the greatest resistance to the idea of political dissolution comes from Democrats in Redland and to a lesser extent Republicans in Blueistan. That is a tougher problem. These people don’t want to be left to twist in the wind.

    Why stop at five regions? This problem could be partly alleviated by the further splintering of the rump states. I foresee the old HRE/Hanseatic system of Free cities making a comeback by end of century. DC, NYC, Toronto, LA, Chicago, Miami etc would all be great candidates for this.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Magic Dirt Resident

    The doge of DC!

  37. @Brian Reilly
    Hooey. There is a lot more water due to run underneath the bridge before there is any kind of formal separation of the no longer united states. And the events of this summer clearly indicate that the right (a loose and inaccurate description, but the best we seem to have) is unwilling to actually fight, and the left (dittos) would be foolish to give up the asset without an existential threat. So the right is virtually politically enslaved for a while.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country

    True. But the fact that the subject is brought up in a semi-serious manner at all tells you something.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
  38. I suspect any devolution of the USA would lead to something like the EU. We’d be a customs union with a common currency as corporate interests would require unimpeded trade across the continent. The interesting thing would be that we’d see the same stresses develop here that Europe experiences from having a common currency.

    For example Italy can’t run huge budget deficits to pay its pension obligations because it doesn’t run the ECB. If it tries it will find its borrowing costs soar as happened in 2011. The Euro limits national sovereignty more effectively than any political arrangement ever could because states cannot print money.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
  39. TG says:

    You had it right the first time: the rich who own this country will never let a dissolution happen.

    But, there is one interesting example to consider. After the world’s first successful slave revolt, the whites in Haiti themselves revolted, and carved out the nation of the Dominican Republic from part of the island of Hispaniola.

    Curiously, while we are told that borders are evil, the Dominicans don’t seem to have any trouble keeping Haitians on their side of the island, and the corporate press is not up in arms about how terrible the Dominicans are. I guess our rulers like the beaches there.

    • Replies: @CapNemo
    @TG

    If this were true, the majority of surnames in the Dominican Republic would be French. But they aren't. They are Spanish. The Dominican Republic was not carved out from La Española.

    , @anon
    @TG

    But, there is one interesting example to consider. After the world’s first successful slave revolt, the whites in Haiti themselves revolted, and carved out the nation of the Dominican Republic from part of the island of Hispaniola.

    No. That's not even close to the history.


    The recorded history of the Dominican Republic began when the Genoa-born navigator Christopher Columbus, working for the Spanish Crown, happened upon a large island in the region of the western Atlantic Ocean that later came to be known as the Caribbean. It was inhabited by the Taíno, an Arawakan people, who variously called their island Ayiti, Bohio, or Quisqueya (Kiskeya). Columbus promptly claimed the island for the Spanish Crown, naming it La Isla Española ("the Spanish Island"), later Latinized to Hispaniola. What would become the Dominican Republic was the Spanish Captaincy General of Santo Domingo until 1821, except for a time as a French colony from 1795 to 1809. It was then part of a unified Hispaniola with Haiti from 1822 until 1844. In 1844, Dominican independence was proclaimed and the republic, which was often known as Santo Domingo until the early 20th century, maintained its independence except for a short Spanish occupation from 1861 to 1865 and occupation by the United States from 1916 to 1924.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Dominican_Republic

    Currently the DR is in the process of building a very secure fence along the border, all 234 miles.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/dominican-republic-to-construct-fence-along-border-with-haiti/ar-BB1e4BGp
  40. @MBlanc46
    Regional states probably wouldn’t work either, because the divide is not regional, but rural/urban (or urban/less urban). But perhaps it could be a first attempt.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    County-by-county FTW!

    • Agree: MBlanc46
  41. @Audacious Epigone
    @bob sykes

    Just like people don't drive from New York to Ontario to visit family now?

    Replies: @Another Canadian

    No, due to the current border restrictions, they don’t.

  42. @Almost Missouri
    @james wilson


    s[e]cession would end the fiat dollar
     
    The arrow of causation runs both ways. Largesse doled out in fiat dollars is what is currently holding back secession. When the dollar breaks from over-printing, expect a rush for the exits.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    When the dollar breaks from over-printing….

    Over-printing inflates the dollar. As far as I know, it does not break it.

    By ceasing to accept the dollar in payment, China can break it. I assume that China is awaiting a propitious moment to do so, regardless of over-printing.

    AE does not want this problem solved, for the problem if unsolved promotes dissolution. However, I do not want dissolution and thus do want the problem solved. I want the U.S. to forestall precipitate Chinese action by negotiating a gradual replacement of the dollar by IMF special drawing rights (XDR) as the unit of international account. Such forestallment should be eminently achievable on terms that are favorable to both China and the United States.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Who mints XDR?

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    , @RoatanBill
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Ask the people that lived thru the Weimar era, the Argentinians, the folks in Zimbabwe, etc. They will quickly refute you naked assertion about printing currency.

    Replacing one failing currency with some nonsense the world level bankers have concocted will solve nothing. You're asking for yet another layer of obfuscation and monetary slight of hand with absolutely no indication replacing one funny currency with another has ever worked.

    The solution is to use money instead of currency so gov't can' spend that which does not exist.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    , @Yahya K.
    @V. K. Ovelund


    However, I do not want dissolution
     
    How come?

    My impression from this thread and others is that dissolution is basically a means to the end of creating a white ethnostate. Nobody is saying this outright of course, but the end result of a breakup along political lines will leave the conservative side with a 90%+ white state. So I thought you would be in support of it. Am I wrong to assume you want a white ethnostate? If not, how do you mean to achieve your ends?

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

  43. @Twinkie
    @V. K. Ovelund


    According to the survey, Dixie wants out.
     
    I certainly do. One demand: Dixie gets West Virginia back.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    Does the curtain of states that runs from Missouri eastward through Illinois, Indiana, Ohio and Pennsylvania not include large numbers of citizens that would prefer to identify with Dixie? I do not mean Chicago or Cleveland, obviously, but St. Louis or Pittsburgh.

  44. @Audacious Epigone
    @Trinity

    That's an assertion made by many white identitarians but is it accurate? The South is the biggest internal migration magnet in the US and has been for decades, and it's less white than the rest of the country. There aren't a lot of non-whites following whites into West Virginia or Wyoming.

    Replies: @Trinity, @Stealth

    Are you an American? EVERYONE KNOWS THAT FLEEING WHITE YANKEES ARE THE ONES MOVING SOUTH along with fleeing negroes whose ancestors fled the South decades ago. Regardless whether the fleeing Northerner is Black or White, most ARE NOT VERY WELCOME by Southern Whites and Southern Blacks because they try and change the South to be more like the places they ran away from. White Yankees did a great deal of damage to Florida and I am afraid fleeing White Californians will do damage to states like Texas, Nevada, Colorado, etc. These people run away from a place they helped ruin and then start demanding that their host do as they do.

    Your White Yankee isn’t fleeing to the South because of negroes, you can take that to the bank. He or she, White Yankees that is, are flying to places like the foothills of Georgia, North and South Carolina or maybe the beach. Sure, some live on the outskirts of the big cities for work purposes but we get a lot of retired snowbirds fleeing their beloved Northern states because they only talk the talk and don’t want to walk the walk. Better to live among law abiding rednecks and complain than live in leftist shitholes like New Yawk and Shitcago.

    Yankees running away from the North to live with narrow minded and bigoted Southerners, imagine that. “Yawl” helped RUIN FLORIDA, and now you are looking to do the same with other states like Georgia, Carolinas and Tennessee. Watch out, Texas, California is coming your way.

  45. @JL
    @Almost Missouri


    The Soviet Union successfully devolved into its constituent parts without killing millions, or even thousands.
     
    Hundreds of thousands of people died in subsequent wars in the former republics, which included, inter alia, Chechnya, Armenia/Azerbaijan, Tajikistan civil war, and Transdnestria. This is not to even mention the 90s horror that befell Russia itself, which saw the largest peacetime demographic hit ever recorded, with male life expectancy falling into the low 50s. To call the devolution successful, with wars constantly being fought in the constituent republics to this very day, takes a fair amount of creativity.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone, @Almost Missouri

    Chechnya and Transdnestria are examples of non-secession. Tajikistan was a case of thwarted secession. So all of these are examples of the perils of inhibiting secession, not the perils of allowing secession.

    Armenia/Azerbaijan was a war between two sovereign powers after they had seceded from the USSR. But then the war was to prevent the secession of the Nagorno-Karabakh from Azerbaijan to Armenia. So again, when secession is impeded, the blood starts to flow.

    Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan and Georgia, among others, all seceded from the Soviet Union with little or no violence.

    Similarly, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and East Germany had hundreds of thousands of Soviet troops stationed in them, yet they all managed to go their own way with nary a shot fired. Czechoslovakia later separated into Czechia and Slovakia, again, without violence.

    The US’s worst-ever war was the Civil War, which was waged to prevent the South’s legitimate secession.

    Preventing secession is indeed a bloody business, which is why no one who isn’t a bloodthirsty maniac should be against it.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @mark green
    @Almost Missouri


    The US’s worst-ever war was the Civil War, which was waged to prevent the South’s legitimate secession.
     
    You are correct. And Lincoln's denial of the Southern states' desire to peacefully secede will not be forgotten by the modern anti-secessionists who will fight tooth-and-nail to preserve our dysfunctional 'union'.

    What's worse, anti-secessionists are (I suspect) greater in number and far far greater in wealth/influence than those of us who want to see the militarized behemoth otherwise known as the USA cut down to size.

    You can also bet that the comfortable, the rich, the connected, as well as the entire political establishment will generally resist any attempt to break up the USA.

    Despite our nation's growing flaws, the mega-rich as well as our ruling establishment still pretty much likes things the way they are. Plus, with secession, there would be huge challenges involving our monetary system--not to mention our military establishment.

    Some questions:

    Would the dollar be the new trans-regional currency?

    If so, which region would be in charge of printing dollars?

    And what about the military? Would all the new nations which emerge from the carcass of the former USA have their own separate armies?--and nuclear weapons, too?

    These are not unimportant issues.

    Breaking up the USA would not likely be permitted by the SCOTUS unless many many conditions were met. The legal hurdles would be exhausting. Existing institutions such as the courts as well as the military would almost certainly resist lawful secession.

    With these facts in mind, the most practical way to achieve greater autonomy and personal independence would be to shrink the federal government by 50% and reduce federal taxes by a similar figure.

    This strategy would allow the USA would endure but allow the next step: namely the re-empowerment of the various 'united' states.

    Each state would become semi-autonomous. There should also be a mechanism within each state to override any egregious, liberty-denying decision imposed by the SCOTUS over the past century, not to mention most of the freedom-killing 'civil rights' legislation passed since WWII.

    Since abolishing the USA would be next to impossible, reinvigorating 'States Rights' is the most efficient and practical way to reclaim lost liberty.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Wency, @Audacious Epigone

  46. @WorkingClass
    @Almost Missouri


    I continue to believe that the way to approach secession is not in arbitrary regional blocs, but county-by-county (or parish for Louisianans).
     
    Coalitions of red counties could cross state lines. One or more new republics and/or autonomous zones could emerge looking like gerrymandered congressional districts.

    Constitutional Sheriffs And Peace Officers Association
    https://cspoa.org/
     
    Let them have the shit hole cities and the District of Corruption.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Coalitions of red counties could cross state lines.

    And that’s a good thing.

    The simple truth is that about 3/4 – 5/6 of American counties are in broad agreement and could quickly find common interest if freed from the Federal yoke. That kind of territorial supermajority could also impose its will on the remainder of the former USA if it chose to. But it need not choose to. Maybe blue cities are better off festering in their own grime without the red outback to export their problems to and to leech off of. Does red America really need that hassle?

    Red America would already have Gulf and Great Lakes-to-St. Lawrence ports. Transatlantic shipping can travel up the Hudson River past NYC to redder landfall. To the extent red needs Eastern or Western seaboard ports, it could selectively and creatively extend it’s reach to specifically just those resources that are necessary to it in blue America, “Special Economic Zones” and the like. Maybe Long Beach. Or, if it’s feeling megalomaniac, it just could just declare all of blue America a “Special Economic Zone” under the suzerainty of red America. What’re they gonna do about it, fight back from their gun-free zones?

    Red America ruling blue America is the natural order of things. We are currently living in the inversion of the natural order, where blue rules red (and does so incompetently, to add insult to injury). There is no reason to let this persist. Blue can have self-determination or not, at the discretion of red, the natural sovereign.

  47. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Almost Missouri


    When the dollar breaks from over-printing....
     
    Over-printing inflates the dollar. As far as I know, it does not break it.

    By ceasing to accept the dollar in payment, China can break it. I assume that China is awaiting a propitious moment to do so, regardless of over-printing.

    AE does not want this problem solved, for the problem if unsolved promotes dissolution. However, I do not want dissolution and thus do want the problem solved. I want the U.S. to forestall precipitate Chinese action by negotiating a gradual replacement of the dollar by IMF special drawing rights (XDR) as the unit of international account. Such forestallment should be eminently achievable on terms that are favorable to both China and the United States.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @RoatanBill, @Yahya K.

    Who mints XDR?

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Almost Missouri


    Who mints XDR?
     
    As far as I know, the same institutions that mint it now—or issue it now, to be precise: Bank of England (8 percent); Bank of Japan (8 percent); Eurozone national central banks as coördinated by the European Central Bank (31 percent); Chinese banks as directed by the People's Bank of China (11 percent); and the members of the U.S. Federal Reserve (42 percent).

    One presumes that China would demand a broader slice of the pie. Within reason, China should be accommodated in this.

    As far as control mechanisms go, we're in luck: there are thousands of well-trained, high-IQ Ph.D. economists who would regard the precise design of differential control mechanisms as the capstone of their lives' work. They'd hold international conferences in which renowned professors would huddle around polished mahogany tables for days on end, working out the tiniest of details. They'd run computer simulations. They'd publish papers. As long as the Fed and the other sponsoring institutions had made it clear in advance that XDR were intended for use in clearing international transactions only, and especially that XDR as such were unacceptable in settlement of private tax debt, it would probably come out all right.

    Such seems preferable to the prospect of waiting around for China to choose her moment to torpedo the dollar, at any rate.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @RoatanBill

  48. @Almost Missouri
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Who mints XDR?

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    Who mints XDR?

    As far as I know, the same institutions that mint it now—or issue it now, to be precise: Bank of England (8 percent); Bank of Japan (8 percent); Eurozone national central banks as coördinated by the European Central Bank (31 percent); Chinese banks as directed by the People’s Bank of China (11 percent); and the members of the U.S. Federal Reserve (42 percent).

    One presumes that China would demand a broader slice of the pie. Within reason, China should be accommodated in this.

    As far as control mechanisms go, we’re in luck: there are thousands of well-trained, high-IQ Ph.D. economists who would regard the precise design of differential control mechanisms as the capstone of their lives’ work. They’d hold international conferences in which renowned professors would huddle around polished mahogany tables for days on end, working out the tiniest of details. They’d run computer simulations. They’d publish papers. As long as the Fed and the other sponsoring institutions had made it clear in advance that XDR were intended for use in clearing international transactions only, and especially that XDR as such were unacceptable in settlement of private tax debt, it would probably come out all right.

    Such seems preferable to the prospect of waiting around for China to choose her moment to torpedo the dollar, at any rate.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Do we want those people minting our currency?

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    , @RoatanBill
    @V. K. Ovelund

    high-IQ Ph.D. economists

    These are the brainiacs that caused the problem and you want them to solve it?

    Never expect the people who caused a problem to solve it.
    Albert Einstein

    Do you have a gov't job?

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

  49. @Anita Patel
    The big problem with dissolution even if it could be done amicably and equitably is that the power mad would no longer have a vehicle with which to achieve their perverted dreams of world hegemony. We're all in that game whether we want to be or not and no one will be allowed out from underneath the accompanying crushing debt and tax burden. Though history tells us that all empires ultimately collapse or are destroyed due to military adventuring each empire always believes they will disprove this rule. Hasn't happened yet.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Rahan, @Audacious Epigone

    The big problem with dissolution even if it could be done amicably and equitably is that the power mad would no longer have a vehicle with which to achieve their perverted dreams of world hegemony.

    During the Soviet disintegration, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia really thought they would become a bunch of Denmarks, and that the only thing holding them back was Moscow.

    Many Ukrainians thought they’d be the Eastern France within a decade.

    The “party barons” controlling places like Georgia, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, and so on, simply saw the chance to create their own fiefdoms where no one else gets to tell them what they can and can’t do. And they did achieve this.

    So you have two sets of motivations:
    1) the delusion that for example California and NY are being “held back” by the heartland states, and the moment those are gone, California and NY will become “like Europe but better”.
    2) the power-craving of having no one else to cancel out your whims.

    Those are powerful. If the hypothetical indie California and NY are allowed to hold on to UK/France level nuclear arsenals and get automatic chairs in various top level international meetings and security councils and shit, which will make them think that their international standing and ability to project force will not decline too much–they’re good to go.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Rahan


    During the Soviet disintegration, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia really thought they would become a bunch of Denmarks, and that the only thing holding them back was Moscow.
     
    They are a lot closer to being a bunch of Denmarks now than they were under the Soviet Union. Indeed, now that the actual Denmark is importing Africans hand over fist, the Baltics may soon be more "Denmark" than Denmark is.

    Replies: @Mark G.

  50. Why will separation change anything?
    Dodge City Kansas is now majority Mexican because corporations want open borders for cheap labor. Are you saying after separation big corporations won’t run things in red states? Not likely.
    You’ll get the same government you have now, but it will be called Topeka instead of Washington.
    Voters in the new separated Kansas will find that their votes don’t count for the same reasons their votes don’t count now in the USA.
    The real question is why those anti-majority forces are winning already in places like NY and CA. Separation doesn’t address the root causes.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @rebel yell


    Why will separation change anything?
     
    It might make things worse. Imagine a separated mini-nation with permanent Republican government. Is it conceivable that such a permanent Republican government might cave in to demands of the corporate lobby and the small business sector and promote massive Third World immigration?
  51. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Almost Missouri


    Who mints XDR?
     
    As far as I know, the same institutions that mint it now—or issue it now, to be precise: Bank of England (8 percent); Bank of Japan (8 percent); Eurozone national central banks as coördinated by the European Central Bank (31 percent); Chinese banks as directed by the People's Bank of China (11 percent); and the members of the U.S. Federal Reserve (42 percent).

    One presumes that China would demand a broader slice of the pie. Within reason, China should be accommodated in this.

    As far as control mechanisms go, we're in luck: there are thousands of well-trained, high-IQ Ph.D. economists who would regard the precise design of differential control mechanisms as the capstone of their lives' work. They'd hold international conferences in which renowned professors would huddle around polished mahogany tables for days on end, working out the tiniest of details. They'd run computer simulations. They'd publish papers. As long as the Fed and the other sponsoring institutions had made it clear in advance that XDR were intended for use in clearing international transactions only, and especially that XDR as such were unacceptable in settlement of private tax debt, it would probably come out all right.

    Such seems preferable to the prospect of waiting around for China to choose her moment to torpedo the dollar, at any rate.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @RoatanBill

    Do we want those people minting our currency?

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Almost Missouri


    Do we want those people minting our currency?
     
    No, sorry, my reply was too long. It got lost in the details.

    You are right. Those people are not to issue our currency. No way. The U.S. dollar is to retain within the United States a status similar to the status the Canadian dollar already has within Canada.

    Were you thinking of the way the euro replaced the German mark and French franc? That was a response to another problem. This is different.

  52. @Rahan
    @Anita Patel


    The big problem with dissolution even if it could be done amicably and equitably is that the power mad would no longer have a vehicle with which to achieve their perverted dreams of world hegemony.
     
    During the Soviet disintegration, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia really thought they would become a bunch of Denmarks, and that the only thing holding them back was Moscow.

    Many Ukrainians thought they'd be the Eastern France within a decade.

    The "party barons" controlling places like Georgia, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, and so on, simply saw the chance to create their own fiefdoms where no one else gets to tell them what they can and can't do. And they did achieve this.

    So you have two sets of motivations:
    1) the delusion that for example California and NY are being "held back" by the heartland states, and the moment those are gone, California and NY will become "like Europe but better".
    2) the power-craving of having no one else to cancel out your whims.

    Those are powerful. If the hypothetical indie California and NY are allowed to hold on to UK/France level nuclear arsenals and get automatic chairs in various top level international meetings and security councils and shit, which will make them think that their international standing and ability to project force will not decline too much--they're good to go.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    During the Soviet disintegration, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia really thought they would become a bunch of Denmarks, and that the only thing holding them back was Moscow.

    They are a lot closer to being a bunch of Denmarks now than they were under the Soviet Union. Indeed, now that the actual Denmark is importing Africans hand over fist, the Baltics may soon be more “Denmark” than Denmark is.

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Replies: @Mark G.
    @Almost Missouri


    They are a lot closer to being a bunch of Denmarks now than they were under the Soviet Union.
     
    This is especially true of Estonia, after they adopted market oriented reforms as described at the Intellectual Takeout website in 2018:

    "These reforms paved way for the incredible rise in living standards that Estonia has experienced since independence. Today, Estonia is considered a high-income country by the World Bank, and it is member of the EU and the Eurozone. The purchasing power of Estonians has increased 400 percent over the last two decades despite the severe impact the 2008 financial crisis had on the Baltic economies. In addition, life expectancy has moved from 66 years in 1994 to 77 years in 2016.

    Estonia is ranked among the top countries in terms of economic freedom. Government finances are healthy as shown by the fact that public debt is only 9.5% of GDP. In terms of the labor market, Estonia’s unemployment rate is 5.3%, well below the EU average. Finally, its efficient and attractive corporate tax system (undistributed profits aren’t taxed) has placed Estonia as a worldwide center for high-tech companies, boosting foreign investments and economic growth."

    Replies: @Rahan

  53. Any breakup would have to avoid abandoning Populist Main Street voters to predatory SJW Globalists. The U.S. House election map is a good starting point for the division between:

    • RED — Populist Free America
    • BLUE — Corporate Authoritarian Police State SJW Speech Controlled Reich (a.k.a. Karen-topia)

    How long would the BLUE Corporate Oligarchy tolerate losing money to subsidize the Chicago enclave? Based on Bangladesh’s experience, an independent Chic-ladesh is unlikely to be successful or stable. Maybe Canada would take it, but they have their own problems.

    As an aside. How would the SJW Globalist Reich field a military? Who would they recruit? Foreign nationals?

    PEACE 😇

      

  54. A very interesting poll. I would suggest that the 50% of Republicans in the South who do not favor secession are mostly migrants from up North, along with those who earn a living working for the Federal government. Most born-and-bred Southern Conservatives, and a good many liberals, too, yearn for an independent South deep in their hearts.

    The history of secession movements in the USA shows that the dominant group is always against it, and the minority group typically favor it. Jefferson, for instance, noted that he could more easily raise regiments from the Southern states to invade the rebellious New England states than raise them to fight the British in the War of 1812. The Hartford Convention was the first serious secession movement in our history. So Southerners haven’t always favored secession per se. It’s always been a matter of “who/whom.”

    The exception to the was the one time it actually occurred. Before the war secession was preached from the pulpit, and clamored for in newspaper editorials in New England right up until the South seceded from the North, rather than the other way around. Some people went to bed preaching secession, and woke up to denounce it as treason. This is most particularly ironic in a nation founded on revolution.

    Such it ever was, and ever will be, that those holding the strings of power do not like any string cut, nor any reduction in their power, even if it means destroying an area or people who profit them at the moment.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  55. @TG
    You had it right the first time: the rich who own this country will never let a dissolution happen.

    But, there is one interesting example to consider. After the world's first successful slave revolt, the whites in Haiti themselves revolted, and carved out the nation of the Dominican Republic from part of the island of Hispaniola.

    Curiously, while we are told that borders are evil, the Dominicans don't seem to have any trouble keeping Haitians on their side of the island, and the corporate press is not up in arms about how terrible the Dominicans are. I guess our rulers like the beaches there.

    Replies: @CapNemo, @anon

    If this were true, the majority of surnames in the Dominican Republic would be French. But they aren’t. They are Spanish. The Dominican Republic was not carved out from La Española.

  56. @Sick 'n Tired
    The South would become the most powerful section of the former US due to weather, oil, agriculture, and access to major shipping ports. The North outsourced pretty much all of their manufacturing capabilities, Detroit doesn't make cars any more, California and the west coast switched over to legal weed & caters to criminal's rights. Inland states without access to ports would be beholden to the South who do, so huge tariffs could be used as leverage.

    Replies: @CCZ, @Supply and Demand

    I really hope the South breaks off so that the Chinese voting machines installed by the GOP aristocracy (after sufficient bribery) enforce a black-run tinpot. White Southerners should be forced to stew in the demographic soup they imported with the burner on max. Cheers from Dalian.

    • Replies: @RebelWriter
    @Supply and Demand

    "People alive today should be punished for what people did 200 years ago."

    Noice.

    Of course this leaves out the very minor point that while Southerners did indeed purchase the Africans, they did not import them. New England shipping merchants were responsible for the vast majority of the US portion of the North Atlantic Slave Trade.

    If I am to bear blame for my ancestors having owned slaves, then I should at least also have some grace given that so many of my ancestors fought for the Colonies in the American Revolution.

    Replies: @Supply and Demand

  57. @Supply and Demand
    @Sick 'n Tired

    I really hope the South breaks off so that the Chinese voting machines installed by the GOP aristocracy (after sufficient bribery) enforce a black-run tinpot. White Southerners should be forced to stew in the demographic soup they imported with the burner on max. Cheers from Dalian.

    Replies: @RebelWriter

    “People alive today should be punished for what people did 200 years ago.”

    Noice.

    Of course this leaves out the very minor point that while Southerners did indeed purchase the Africans, they did not import them. New England shipping merchants were responsible for the vast majority of the US portion of the North Atlantic Slave Trade.

    If I am to bear blame for my ancestors having owned slaves, then I should at least also have some grace given that so many of my ancestors fought for the Colonies in the American Revolution.

    • Replies: @Supply and Demand
    @RebelWriter

    I’m perfectly open to punishing the New Englanders as well. I was born in Wisconsin.

    Saddle a bill squarely on Brown University and the Boston shipping magnates, payable directly to every groid in the country. Still doesn’t change the fact that Southerners need another century of black-run reconstruction as a form accountability and just punishment for ruining America.

    Replies: @Curle

  58. @Almost Missouri
    @Rahan


    During the Soviet disintegration, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia really thought they would become a bunch of Denmarks, and that the only thing holding them back was Moscow.
     
    They are a lot closer to being a bunch of Denmarks now than they were under the Soviet Union. Indeed, now that the actual Denmark is importing Africans hand over fist, the Baltics may soon be more "Denmark" than Denmark is.

    Replies: @Mark G.

    They are a lot closer to being a bunch of Denmarks now than they were under the Soviet Union.

    This is especially true of Estonia, after they adopted market oriented reforms as described at the Intellectual Takeout website in 2018:

    “These reforms paved way for the incredible rise in living standards that Estonia has experienced since independence. Today, Estonia is considered a high-income country by the World Bank, and it is member of the EU and the Eurozone. The purchasing power of Estonians has increased 400 percent over the last two decades despite the severe impact the 2008 financial crisis had on the Baltic economies. In addition, life expectancy has moved from 66 years in 1994 to 77 years in 2016.

    Estonia is ranked among the top countries in terms of economic freedom. Government finances are healthy as shown by the fact that public debt is only 9.5% of GDP. In terms of the labor market, Estonia’s unemployment rate is 5.3%, well below the EU average. Finally, its efficient and attractive corporate tax system (undistributed profits aren’t taxed) has placed Estonia as a worldwide center for high-tech companies, boosting foreign investments and economic growth.”

    • Replies: @Rahan
    @Mark G.

    Estonia is what Slovenia is vis-a-vis the former Yugoslav union. The one former member that really made it.
    Possibly Latvia and Lithuania combined are some depressive equivalent of Croatia.

  59. @Audacious Epigone
    @Trinity

    That's an assertion made by many white identitarians but is it accurate? The South is the biggest internal migration magnet in the US and has been for decades, and it's less white than the rest of the country. There aren't a lot of non-whites following whites into West Virginia or Wyoming.

    Replies: @Trinity, @Stealth

    The South is actually quite nice, as long a you can stand heat, bugs and high humidity. My own corner of that region has its poor areas, but outside of that, you have a modern, first-world-looking housing stock, and most people don’t see any reason to migrate to other areas of the country. Also, Southern towns and cities can be much prettier than their counterparts in the Northeast, where things appear as if they were designed in the first place to be ugly as sin. That entire of region looks like it’s on life support, sporting many cities that would seem right at home in a third world country. To add insult to injury, buying just about any house costs a jillion dollars.

    • Agree: Sick 'n Tired
    • Replies: @Anon
    @Stealth

    Where do you think the south's wefare money comes from?

    Replies: @Stealth

  60. @Almost Missouri
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Do we want those people minting our currency?

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    Do we want those people minting our currency?

    No, sorry, my reply was too long. It got lost in the details.

    You are right. Those people are not to issue our currency. No way. The U.S. dollar is to retain within the United States a status similar to the status the Canadian dollar already has within Canada.

    Were you thinking of the way the euro replaced the German mark and French franc? That was a response to another problem. This is different.

  61. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Almost Missouri


    When the dollar breaks from over-printing....
     
    Over-printing inflates the dollar. As far as I know, it does not break it.

    By ceasing to accept the dollar in payment, China can break it. I assume that China is awaiting a propitious moment to do so, regardless of over-printing.

    AE does not want this problem solved, for the problem if unsolved promotes dissolution. However, I do not want dissolution and thus do want the problem solved. I want the U.S. to forestall precipitate Chinese action by negotiating a gradual replacement of the dollar by IMF special drawing rights (XDR) as the unit of international account. Such forestallment should be eminently achievable on terms that are favorable to both China and the United States.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @RoatanBill, @Yahya K.

    Ask the people that lived thru the Weimar era, the Argentinians, the folks in Zimbabwe, etc. They will quickly refute you naked assertion about printing currency.

    Replacing one failing currency with some nonsense the world level bankers have concocted will solve nothing. You’re asking for yet another layer of obfuscation and monetary slight of hand with absolutely no indication replacing one funny currency with another has ever worked.

    The solution is to use money instead of currency so gov’t can’ spend that which does not exist.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @RoatanBill


    Ask the people that lived thru the Weimar era, the Argentinians, the folks in Zimbabwe, etc. They will quickly refute you naked assertion about printing currency.

    Replacing one failing currency with some nonsense the world level bankers have concocted will solve nothing.
     

    Your reply does not address my comment, but that's my fault. My comment was confusing.

    You’re asking for yet another layer of obfuscation and monetary slight of hand ...
     
    I am asking for the U.S. to resort to existing institutions and arrangements to stave off the otherwise foreseeable Chinese torpedoing of the dollar.

    ... with absolutely no indication replacing one funny currency with another has ever worked.
     
    Temperamentally, I am inclined to agree, but the trouble you and I both have is that our temperament contradicts observable experience. Fiat money has in fact had a pretty good run.

    Technically, what you want is for the federal government to start (whether directly or indirectly) demanding specie in payment of taxes again. That might be a good idea, but it has little to do with China's torpedo as far as I know. Also, it's not that simple, for it does not address the bank-failure problem.

    Pardon. I am not deliberately trying to be obscure. I do not know how to explain myself at blog-comment length. If you ask a specific question, I will answer if I can.

    Otherwise, let me close with this: the greatest weakness of fiat money and MMT is that they are too alien to honest citizens like yourself. Simpler systems the public can understand well enough to earn the public's confidence are preferable for that reason alone. But I don't think that you're going to get there in time with the dollar.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

  62. I think a poll of the deep state and the Central Planning Committee of the Politburo located on Wall Street would show that secession is deeply unpopular Comrade!

  63. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Almost Missouri


    Who mints XDR?
     
    As far as I know, the same institutions that mint it now—or issue it now, to be precise: Bank of England (8 percent); Bank of Japan (8 percent); Eurozone national central banks as coördinated by the European Central Bank (31 percent); Chinese banks as directed by the People's Bank of China (11 percent); and the members of the U.S. Federal Reserve (42 percent).

    One presumes that China would demand a broader slice of the pie. Within reason, China should be accommodated in this.

    As far as control mechanisms go, we're in luck: there are thousands of well-trained, high-IQ Ph.D. economists who would regard the precise design of differential control mechanisms as the capstone of their lives' work. They'd hold international conferences in which renowned professors would huddle around polished mahogany tables for days on end, working out the tiniest of details. They'd run computer simulations. They'd publish papers. As long as the Fed and the other sponsoring institutions had made it clear in advance that XDR were intended for use in clearing international transactions only, and especially that XDR as such were unacceptable in settlement of private tax debt, it would probably come out all right.

    Such seems preferable to the prospect of waiting around for China to choose her moment to torpedo the dollar, at any rate.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @RoatanBill

    high-IQ Ph.D. economists

    These are the brainiacs that caused the problem and you want them to solve it?

    Never expect the people who caused a problem to solve it.
    Albert Einstein

    Do you have a gov’t job?

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @RoatanBill


    Do you have a gov’t job?
     
    I did. I got purged in a mad institutional fit of Trump-resisting political correctness.

    These are the brainiacs that caused the problem....
     
    Bill, I'm not out to get you, and I am not trying to prove that I am smarter than you. It was precisely because I didn't behave like that that I got purged.

    I get the frustration. I share it.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

  64. No form of separation detailed in the comments solves my problem, because, as a deplorable, I have lost the respect, friendship, and admiration of my family and friends. It has been too problematic to move to sane-ville so far, and this would not change if sane-ville were reconstituted as a different kind of political entity.

    The best I can hope for is that the gym reopens, and I can rejoin fellow deplorables. The gym, and this website, are my new countries. The only other positive scenario is that there is a total collapse of such magnitude, that my friends and family say, Oh my God, you right all along.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
  65. @RoatanBill
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Ask the people that lived thru the Weimar era, the Argentinians, the folks in Zimbabwe, etc. They will quickly refute you naked assertion about printing currency.

    Replacing one failing currency with some nonsense the world level bankers have concocted will solve nothing. You're asking for yet another layer of obfuscation and monetary slight of hand with absolutely no indication replacing one funny currency with another has ever worked.

    The solution is to use money instead of currency so gov't can' spend that which does not exist.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    Ask the people that lived thru the Weimar era, the Argentinians, the folks in Zimbabwe, etc. They will quickly refute you naked assertion about printing currency.

    Replacing one failing currency with some nonsense the world level bankers have concocted will solve nothing.

    Your reply does not address my comment, but that’s my fault. My comment was confusing.

    You’re asking for yet another layer of obfuscation and monetary slight of hand …

    I am asking for the U.S. to resort to existing institutions and arrangements to stave off the otherwise foreseeable Chinese torpedoing of the dollar.

    … with absolutely no indication replacing one funny currency with another has ever worked.

    Temperamentally, I am inclined to agree, but the trouble you and I both have is that our temperament contradicts observable experience. Fiat money has in fact had a pretty good run.

    Technically, what you want is for the federal government to start (whether directly or indirectly) demanding specie in payment of taxes again. That might be a good idea, but it has little to do with China’s torpedo as far as I know. Also, it’s not that simple, for it does not address the bank-failure problem.

    Pardon. I am not deliberately trying to be obscure. I do not know how to explain myself at blog-comment length. If you ask a specific question, I will answer if I can.

    Otherwise, let me close with this: the greatest weakness of fiat money and MMT is that they are too alien to honest citizens like yourself. Simpler systems the public can understand well enough to earn the public’s confidence are preferable for that reason alone. But I don’t think that you’re going to get there in time with the dollar.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I am asking for the U.S. to resort to existing institutions and arrangements to stave off the otherwise foreseeable Chinese torpedoing of the dollar.

    We already have existing institutions like the Fed Gov that spends on borrowed funds and a central bank that created fiat out of nothing. The World Bank, BIS, IMF, etc are just more of the same - printing from nothing. What makes you think that when the largest economy in the world and the one with a failing reserve currency hits the wall that any of these phony agencies can clean up the debris?

    China has an estimated 20,000 tons of gold with many believing it has quite a bit more. If China chooses to back their currency with even a percentage of gold, all the fiat currencies are instantly toilet paper, including SDR's, and any other super fiat instruments.

    Fiat money has in fact had a pretty good run.

    You answered a question I didn't ask. Show me where one nation's dead currency saved that nation by using another fiat currency. To the best of my knowledge, once a currency dies, no one wants to deal with the nation it represents for quite some time. Trust is the only thing backing up national currencies and trust is gone when a nation stiffs its partners. Partners want to be paid in something with intrinsic value, not pieces of depreciating or worthless paper, regardless of the source.

    What I want is for the Fed Gov to disappear like a bad smell along with the phony currency, preferring real money. That real money can be anything tangible that the other party is willing to accept. Several states have already passed laws making silver and gold money and many more are looking into it. There's nothing to prevent a state or any municipality from accepting something real as payment for taxes.

    If states eschew the Federal Reserve notes in favor of specie, any dollar catastrophe has less effect on those with real money. Instead of worrying about China, why not demand states allow the use of real money that the entire world will accept by weight in the case of precious metals?

    Replies: @Sick 'n Tired, @V. K. Ovelund, @A123

  66. @RoatanBill
    @V. K. Ovelund

    high-IQ Ph.D. economists

    These are the brainiacs that caused the problem and you want them to solve it?

    Never expect the people who caused a problem to solve it.
    Albert Einstein

    Do you have a gov't job?

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    Do you have a gov’t job?

    I did. I got purged in a mad institutional fit of Trump-resisting political correctness.

    These are the brainiacs that caused the problem….

    Bill, I’m not out to get you, and I am not trying to prove that I am smarter than you. It was precisely because I didn’t behave like that that I got purged.

    I get the frustration. I share it.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I get the impression that what may happen really scares you, as it should. The planning, however, should not include repeating the previous mistakes that have been identified by numerous people and recent history.

    Forget about gov't currency and concentrate on money or money equivalents instead. Land, gold, silver, oil, crops and many other things can function as money or its equivalent. Currency is the bankers trick that every gov't subscribes to because it gets everyone elected on promises made with stolen or borrowed funds. Lets not do that again.

    The US debt can never be paid off honestly. It can be paid off with the Fed printing up pieces of paper, maybe with Obama's face on it, and starting off with $1,000,000,000 in each upper corner and handing them out to repay the debt. That's what's likely to happen in one form or another as things are going regardless of what China or any other nation does.

    The US economy is a dead man walking. The US dollar is purposely being destroyed in real time via a scheme that benefits the wealthy and connected. Don't help them with their nefarious plans by joining in and cheering for more of what is failing the working population now.

  67. Yahya K. says:
    @V. K. Ovelund
    @Almost Missouri


    When the dollar breaks from over-printing....
     
    Over-printing inflates the dollar. As far as I know, it does not break it.

    By ceasing to accept the dollar in payment, China can break it. I assume that China is awaiting a propitious moment to do so, regardless of over-printing.

    AE does not want this problem solved, for the problem if unsolved promotes dissolution. However, I do not want dissolution and thus do want the problem solved. I want the U.S. to forestall precipitate Chinese action by negotiating a gradual replacement of the dollar by IMF special drawing rights (XDR) as the unit of international account. Such forestallment should be eminently achievable on terms that are favorable to both China and the United States.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @RoatanBill, @Yahya K.

    However, I do not want dissolution

    How come?

    My impression from this thread and others is that dissolution is basically a means to the end of creating a white ethnostate. Nobody is saying this outright of course, but the end result of a breakup along political lines will leave the conservative side with a 90%+ white state. So I thought you would be in support of it. Am I wrong to assume you want a white ethnostate? If not, how do you mean to achieve your ends?

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Yahya K.



    However, I do not want dissolution and thus do want the problem solved.
     
    How come?

    My impression from this thread and others is that dissolution is basically a means to the end of creating a white ethnostate. Nobody is saying this outright of course, but the end result of a breakup along political lines will leave the conservative side with a 90%+ white state. So I thought you would be in support of it. Am I wrong to assume you want a white ethnostate?
     

    Like you, I am no ideologue.

    It is indeed significant to me that U.S. births were 85 percent white European Gentile as recently as 1960, whereas the figure approaches 45 percent today. White Americans have a way of being that suits us, and we are happier, more productive and more relaxed when allowed to exist in our own space.

    But these are mundane considerations of an utterly unremarkable, anodyne nature. The problem is that an artificial circumstance has been deliberately engineered to place your interests in conflict with mine. Neither of us deserves that. Neither of us should blame the other for it.


    If not, how do you mean to achieve your end desire for a white state?
     
    I am no social engineer. I have no program. I believe [i] in getting along with people, [ii] in dealing with reality as it exists, and [iii] in making the demographic that has engineered this catastrophe pay a price.

    Otherwise, I mean to await a turn of events.

  68. @V. K. Ovelund
    @RoatanBill


    Ask the people that lived thru the Weimar era, the Argentinians, the folks in Zimbabwe, etc. They will quickly refute you naked assertion about printing currency.

    Replacing one failing currency with some nonsense the world level bankers have concocted will solve nothing.
     

    Your reply does not address my comment, but that's my fault. My comment was confusing.

    You’re asking for yet another layer of obfuscation and monetary slight of hand ...
     
    I am asking for the U.S. to resort to existing institutions and arrangements to stave off the otherwise foreseeable Chinese torpedoing of the dollar.

    ... with absolutely no indication replacing one funny currency with another has ever worked.
     
    Temperamentally, I am inclined to agree, but the trouble you and I both have is that our temperament contradicts observable experience. Fiat money has in fact had a pretty good run.

    Technically, what you want is for the federal government to start (whether directly or indirectly) demanding specie in payment of taxes again. That might be a good idea, but it has little to do with China's torpedo as far as I know. Also, it's not that simple, for it does not address the bank-failure problem.

    Pardon. I am not deliberately trying to be obscure. I do not know how to explain myself at blog-comment length. If you ask a specific question, I will answer if I can.

    Otherwise, let me close with this: the greatest weakness of fiat money and MMT is that they are too alien to honest citizens like yourself. Simpler systems the public can understand well enough to earn the public's confidence are preferable for that reason alone. But I don't think that you're going to get there in time with the dollar.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    I am asking for the U.S. to resort to existing institutions and arrangements to stave off the otherwise foreseeable Chinese torpedoing of the dollar.

    We already have existing institutions like the Fed Gov that spends on borrowed funds and a central bank that created fiat out of nothing. The World Bank, BIS, IMF, etc are just more of the same – printing from nothing. What makes you think that when the largest economy in the world and the one with a failing reserve currency hits the wall that any of these phony agencies can clean up the debris?

    China has an estimated 20,000 tons of gold with many believing it has quite a bit more. If China chooses to back their currency with even a percentage of gold, all the fiat currencies are instantly toilet paper, including SDR’s, and any other super fiat instruments.

    Fiat money has in fact had a pretty good run.

    You answered a question I didn’t ask. Show me where one nation’s dead currency saved that nation by using another fiat currency. To the best of my knowledge, once a currency dies, no one wants to deal with the nation it represents for quite some time. Trust is the only thing backing up national currencies and trust is gone when a nation stiffs its partners. Partners want to be paid in something with intrinsic value, not pieces of depreciating or worthless paper, regardless of the source.

    What I want is for the Fed Gov to disappear like a bad smell along with the phony currency, preferring real money. That real money can be anything tangible that the other party is willing to accept. Several states have already passed laws making silver and gold money and many more are looking into it. There’s nothing to prevent a state or any municipality from accepting something real as payment for taxes.

    If states eschew the Federal Reserve notes in favor of specie, any dollar catastrophe has less effect on those with real money. Instead of worrying about China, why not demand states allow the use of real money that the entire world will accept by weight in the case of precious metals?

    • Replies: @Sick 'n Tired
    @RoatanBill

    "To the best of my knowledge, once a currency dies, no one wants to deal with the nation it represents for quite some time. Trust is the only thing backing up national currencies and trust is gone when a nation stiffs its partners. Partners want to be paid in something with intrinsic value, not pieces of depreciating or worthless paper, regardless of the source."

    This is exactly what China did with Zimbabwe, and how they are making huge inroads into the African continent. Building ports, railways, roadways, power grids and industrial agriculture into countries that are cash poor but resource rich has been going on for quite a while, but China has taken it to the next level. The tin pot dictators are happy to fill their Swiss bank accounts, take credit for the improvements the Chinese are providing, and the Chinese are happy knowing that in 30-50 years, they'll be in full control of the countries.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    , @V. K. Ovelund
    @RoatanBill


    Show me where one nation’s dead currency saved that nation by using another fiat currency.
     
    I cannot.

    On the other hand, I propose no such maneuver.

    If states eschew the Federal Reserve notes in favor of specie, any dollar catastrophe has less effect on those with real money. Instead of worrying about China, why not demand states allow the use of real money that the entire world will accept by weight in the case of precious metals?
     
    In brief, because it is deflationary, leading to a vicious cycle of wage cuts that wreck labor morale, depressing productivity, causing further wage cuts, as in the United States during the 1830s, 1870s and 1930s.

    Inflation is wretched, but deflation is worse. Falling commodity prices leave farmers, for example, unable to pay debts. We just haven't had any substantial deflation in so long, we've forgotten what it's like.

    In a specie economy, the deflation ultimately works itself out by laying off productive labor, idling factories, and repossessing farms. The resultant, unnecessary scarcity (which exists only because productive assets languish used) puts a floor under falling prices, but it's a heck of a brutal way to do it.

    Regarding China, the problem is twofold: [i] there are too many dollars abroad and not enough goods and services here in the United States to redeem those dollars; and [ii] the U.S. is addicted to its trade deficit. So what happens when China informs the rest of the world that her exporters no longer accept payment in dollars?

    Thank you for asking a specific question. I hope that my answer balances brevity with clarity this time.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    , @A123
    @RoatanBill


    China has an estimated 20,000 tons of gold with many believing it has quite a bit more. If China chooses to back their currency with even a percentage of gold, all the fiat currencies are instantly toilet paper, including SDR’s, and any other super fiat instruments.
     
    China has ingots & bars that are theoretically gold. How much of that is not actually gold? No one knows. China is the origin of both tungsten (1) and copper (2) fakes. Fraud is rampant.

    If China attempts to back a currency with fake gold, they will immediately achieve EPIC FAIL.
    ____

    Using a commodity as a currency creates additional problems, such as:
    • Storage cost for physical inventory
    • Transfers wealth to Gold Mine Owner/Operators
    • Prone to "austerity trap" depressions. Gridlock from too little circulating currency is an economy killer.
    ____

    Everyone understands that USD has *huge* issues. However, there is still no viable alternative:

    -A- EUR has every problem problem of USD, plus a weak Central Bank limited by German industrial export policy.

    -B- RMB is also much worse than USD:
    • There are non-public guarantees between State Owned banks and SOE industrial champions.
    • Economic statistics are known to to be political fabrications: (3)


    Chinese economy grows on fake stats

    National and provincial growth data do not ad up. “In an authoritarian system there is definitely an incentive for statistics officials to publish data that will please the government,” says an economist. Growth figures do not consider the devaluation of the yuan.
     

    Anyone who claims to know what "RMB is Worth" is either lying or delusional.
    ______

    I would love for someone else to step up as the global trade "Reserve Currency". The "Reserve Premium" on USD transactions is a disaster for U.S. manufacturing. Every Import to the U.S. is subsidized. Every Export is penalized.

    I really hope that you get your wish and China becomes the "Reserve Currency" nation. Every Chinese Export will surge 3-5% in cost overnight. Every Import to undercut Chinese manufacturing will instantly be 3-5% cheaper. Ending the reserve penalty would bigly accelerate U.S. Re-industrialization. It would be a massive MAGA Renaissance creating U.S. jobs.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) From 2012 -- https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/26/the-drilled-gold-bars-filled-with-tungsten/?sh=5583e3834e13

    (2) https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/06/83-tons-of-fake-gold-bars-gold-market-rocked-by-massive-china-counterfeiting-scandal/

    (3) From 2018 -- http://asianews.it/news-en/Chinese-economy-grows-on-fake-stats-44791.html

    Replies: @RoatanBill

  69. @Almost Missouri
    @CCZ

    Except for Hawaii (plurality Asian), every state is plurality white.

    Except for Hawaii, California and New Mexico, every state is plurality non-Hispanic white.

    Except for the above, plus Texas and Nevada, every state is majority non-Hispanic white.

    As indocon suggests, most Hispanics are aspirationally white. If they had wanted to live in Central America, they would have stayed home. Offered a choice between neo-Central America and a "white" country, they will choose white. Ditto Asians.

    In a straight-up race referendum by state, white will win, hard.

    The only race with aspirations for self-determination are blacks, and that is a) delusional and b) probably not even a majority of blacks. Most blacks understand that everything that works for their benefit is run by whites, and those that don't would figure it out pretty quickly.

    Contra the graphics in this comment, the Old South (green in the first graphic) is in good shape racially. Mississippi has the narrowest white majority, and that is a 19 percentage point lead of whites over blacks. All the other Old South states have even larger white majorities. The only place in the US with a black plurality is the District of Columbia, which is a) not a State, and b) they made their bed, let them lie in it a while.

    This is not to say that the Left is not hard at work undermining this situation. They are. So there is no reason to extend the status quo artificially while they continue their pernicious work. The sooner everyone gets self-determination, the sooner the rot can stop.

    Replies: @Curle, @Luzzatto

    Correct. Showing Washington as majority Asian is insane.

  70. @V. K. Ovelund
    @RoatanBill


    Do you have a gov’t job?
     
    I did. I got purged in a mad institutional fit of Trump-resisting political correctness.

    These are the brainiacs that caused the problem....
     
    Bill, I'm not out to get you, and I am not trying to prove that I am smarter than you. It was precisely because I didn't behave like that that I got purged.

    I get the frustration. I share it.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    I get the impression that what may happen really scares you, as it should. The planning, however, should not include repeating the previous mistakes that have been identified by numerous people and recent history.

    Forget about gov’t currency and concentrate on money or money equivalents instead. Land, gold, silver, oil, crops and many other things can function as money or its equivalent. Currency is the bankers trick that every gov’t subscribes to because it gets everyone elected on promises made with stolen or borrowed funds. Lets not do that again.

    The US debt can never be paid off honestly. It can be paid off with the Fed printing up pieces of paper, maybe with Obama’s face on it, and starting off with $1,000,000,000 in each upper corner and handing them out to repay the debt. That’s what’s likely to happen in one form or another as things are going regardless of what China or any other nation does.

    The US economy is a dead man walking. The US dollar is purposely being destroyed in real time via a scheme that benefits the wealthy and connected. Don’t help them with their nefarious plans by joining in and cheering for more of what is failing the working population now.

    • Agree: Mark G.
  71. @Yahya K.
    @V. K. Ovelund


    However, I do not want dissolution
     
    How come?

    My impression from this thread and others is that dissolution is basically a means to the end of creating a white ethnostate. Nobody is saying this outright of course, but the end result of a breakup along political lines will leave the conservative side with a 90%+ white state. So I thought you would be in support of it. Am I wrong to assume you want a white ethnostate? If not, how do you mean to achieve your ends?

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    However, I do not want dissolution and thus do want the problem solved.

    How come?

    My impression from this thread and others is that dissolution is basically a means to the end of creating a white ethnostate. Nobody is saying this outright of course, but the end result of a breakup along political lines will leave the conservative side with a 90%+ white state. So I thought you would be in support of it. Am I wrong to assume you want a white ethnostate?

    Like you, I am no ideologue.

    It is indeed significant to me that U.S. births were 85 percent white European Gentile as recently as 1960, whereas the figure approaches 45 percent today. White Americans have a way of being that suits us, and we are happier, more productive and more relaxed when allowed to exist in our own space.

    But these are mundane considerations of an utterly unremarkable, anodyne nature. The problem is that an artificial circumstance has been deliberately engineered to place your interests in conflict with mine. Neither of us deserves that. Neither of us should blame the other for it.

    If not, how do you mean to achieve your end desire for a white state?

    I am no social engineer. I have no program. I believe [i] in getting along with people, [ii] in dealing with reality as it exists, and [iii] in making the demographic that has engineered this catastrophe pay a price.

    Otherwise, I mean to await a turn of events.

  72. An interesting debate, Roatan and Ovelund, giving me issues to think about. Thank you both. What a great website, a great pub, this is. I will order another pint from the imaginary bartender, and mull all of this over.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
  73. Before the “War of Northern Aggression” the united States (yes, I purposely did not capitalize “united”) held very little power. The post office and military control over the non-state “territories” were its primary functions.
    Residents of their respective states did not consider themselves to be “citizens of the united States” but considered themselves to be citizens of their respective states. For example, a Virginia citizen considered himself to be a “citizen of Virginia”, NOT a “citizen of the united States”.
    Nullification of federal statutes and laws is an effective way to subdue and limit the power of the federal government. Federal powers (are supposed to) emanate from the states themselves, not the other way around. Of course, if serving on a jury, you will need to keep your nullification knowledge as secret, unless you live in one of the few states that openly informs jurors of their nullification power.
    For far too long, “the tail (federal government) has been “wagging the dog (states)“.
    This is the only non-violent way for the system to change–from the inside. The states (us) need to take back OUR power.
    On a personal basis, I have seceded from much of societal decay on my own. If I walk into a business and see more than one black, I turn around and walk out. Black workers in restaurants are a definite no-no. There have been a few instances where I have been asked why I “walked out” to which I told the questioner that “I don’t deal with your kind”. The shocked look on his face is priceless.
    As to products, I research the social attitudes of the corporations and businesses that I deal with and take my money where it will benefit whites. Sometimes it is not easy, but is still worth it.
    I not only “talk the talk” but “walk the walk”.
    Try it sometimes…

  74. @Stealth
    @Audacious Epigone

    The South is actually quite nice, as long a you can stand heat, bugs and high humidity. My own corner of that region has its poor areas, but outside of that, you have a modern, first-world-looking housing stock, and most people don't see any reason to migrate to other areas of the country. Also, Southern towns and cities can be much prettier than their counterparts in the Northeast, where things appear as if they were designed in the first place to be ugly as sin. That entire of region looks like it's on life support, sporting many cities that would seem right at home in a third world country. To add insult to injury, buying just about any house costs a jillion dollars.

    Replies: @Anon

    Where do you think the south’s wefare money comes from?

    • Replies: @Stealth
    @Anon

    Same place it comes from for Pennsylvania, Vermont, Rhode Island, Delaware, etc. Most states take more from the federal coffers than they put in.

    Outside of a few areas, notably the port cities, the Northeast just isn't all that nice. Poverty is rampant. I've seen plenty of people living in the kind of squalid conditions that I thought only existed in the worst parts of Southern ghettos.

  75. @RoatanBill
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I am asking for the U.S. to resort to existing institutions and arrangements to stave off the otherwise foreseeable Chinese torpedoing of the dollar.

    We already have existing institutions like the Fed Gov that spends on borrowed funds and a central bank that created fiat out of nothing. The World Bank, BIS, IMF, etc are just more of the same - printing from nothing. What makes you think that when the largest economy in the world and the one with a failing reserve currency hits the wall that any of these phony agencies can clean up the debris?

    China has an estimated 20,000 tons of gold with many believing it has quite a bit more. If China chooses to back their currency with even a percentage of gold, all the fiat currencies are instantly toilet paper, including SDR's, and any other super fiat instruments.

    Fiat money has in fact had a pretty good run.

    You answered a question I didn't ask. Show me where one nation's dead currency saved that nation by using another fiat currency. To the best of my knowledge, once a currency dies, no one wants to deal with the nation it represents for quite some time. Trust is the only thing backing up national currencies and trust is gone when a nation stiffs its partners. Partners want to be paid in something with intrinsic value, not pieces of depreciating or worthless paper, regardless of the source.

    What I want is for the Fed Gov to disappear like a bad smell along with the phony currency, preferring real money. That real money can be anything tangible that the other party is willing to accept. Several states have already passed laws making silver and gold money and many more are looking into it. There's nothing to prevent a state or any municipality from accepting something real as payment for taxes.

    If states eschew the Federal Reserve notes in favor of specie, any dollar catastrophe has less effect on those with real money. Instead of worrying about China, why not demand states allow the use of real money that the entire world will accept by weight in the case of precious metals?

    Replies: @Sick 'n Tired, @V. K. Ovelund, @A123

    “To the best of my knowledge, once a currency dies, no one wants to deal with the nation it represents for quite some time. Trust is the only thing backing up national currencies and trust is gone when a nation stiffs its partners. Partners want to be paid in something with intrinsic value, not pieces of depreciating or worthless paper, regardless of the source.”

    This is exactly what China did with Zimbabwe, and how they are making huge inroads into the African continent. Building ports, railways, roadways, power grids and industrial agriculture into countries that are cash poor but resource rich has been going on for quite a while, but China has taken it to the next level. The tin pot dictators are happy to fill their Swiss bank accounts, take credit for the improvements the Chinese are providing, and the Chinese are happy knowing that in 30-50 years, they’ll be in full control of the countries.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @Sick 'n Tired

    I completely agree with you.

    The Chinese are taking natural resources as barter for infrastructure projects. At some point, they're going to jew the countries and own what they've built besides. They learned that from the Economic Hitman operations the IMF, world bank, etc have been using to do the same thing for decades.

    The crooks in gov't always sell out their populations. That's why I'm an anarchist - rules but no rulers.

  76. @RoatanBill
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I am asking for the U.S. to resort to existing institutions and arrangements to stave off the otherwise foreseeable Chinese torpedoing of the dollar.

    We already have existing institutions like the Fed Gov that spends on borrowed funds and a central bank that created fiat out of nothing. The World Bank, BIS, IMF, etc are just more of the same - printing from nothing. What makes you think that when the largest economy in the world and the one with a failing reserve currency hits the wall that any of these phony agencies can clean up the debris?

    China has an estimated 20,000 tons of gold with many believing it has quite a bit more. If China chooses to back their currency with even a percentage of gold, all the fiat currencies are instantly toilet paper, including SDR's, and any other super fiat instruments.

    Fiat money has in fact had a pretty good run.

    You answered a question I didn't ask. Show me where one nation's dead currency saved that nation by using another fiat currency. To the best of my knowledge, once a currency dies, no one wants to deal with the nation it represents for quite some time. Trust is the only thing backing up national currencies and trust is gone when a nation stiffs its partners. Partners want to be paid in something with intrinsic value, not pieces of depreciating or worthless paper, regardless of the source.

    What I want is for the Fed Gov to disappear like a bad smell along with the phony currency, preferring real money. That real money can be anything tangible that the other party is willing to accept. Several states have already passed laws making silver and gold money and many more are looking into it. There's nothing to prevent a state or any municipality from accepting something real as payment for taxes.

    If states eschew the Federal Reserve notes in favor of specie, any dollar catastrophe has less effect on those with real money. Instead of worrying about China, why not demand states allow the use of real money that the entire world will accept by weight in the case of precious metals?

    Replies: @Sick 'n Tired, @V. K. Ovelund, @A123

    Show me where one nation’s dead currency saved that nation by using another fiat currency.

    I cannot.

    On the other hand, I propose no such maneuver.

    If states eschew the Federal Reserve notes in favor of specie, any dollar catastrophe has less effect on those with real money. Instead of worrying about China, why not demand states allow the use of real money that the entire world will accept by weight in the case of precious metals?

    In brief, because it is deflationary, leading to a vicious cycle of wage cuts that wreck labor morale, depressing productivity, causing further wage cuts, as in the United States during the 1830s, 1870s and 1930s.

    Inflation is wretched, but deflation is worse. Falling commodity prices leave farmers, for example, unable to pay debts. We just haven’t had any substantial deflation in so long, we’ve forgotten what it’s like.

    In a specie economy, the deflation ultimately works itself out by laying off productive labor, idling factories, and repossessing farms. The resultant, unnecessary scarcity (which exists only because productive assets languish used) puts a floor under falling prices, but it’s a heck of a brutal way to do it.

    Regarding China, the problem is twofold: [i] there are too many dollars abroad and not enough goods and services here in the United States to redeem those dollars; and [ii] the U.S. is addicted to its trade deficit. So what happens when China informs the rest of the world that her exporters no longer accept payment in dollars?

    Thank you for asking a specific question. I hope that my answer balances brevity with clarity this time.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @V. K. Ovelund

    On the other hand, I propose no such maneuver.

    Didn't you advocate using existing organizations to get the US out of its pickle? Which organizations would that be besides the super fiat producers like the World bank, BIS, IMF, etc?

    Inflation is wretched, but deflation is worse.

    Stop listening to those fraud economists. With no one trying to tweak economic policy (Fed, Regulations, Fractional Reserve lending, etc), you would generally get stable prices, neither inflation nor deflation. Monetary inflation and deflation are always and everywhere central bank initiated events. Price inflation and deflation is a market reaction where everyone votes with their wallet for goods and service. I'd take that any day over the command economy those knucklehead economists propose.

    The problem in the late 1800's, early 1900's was banks creating their own currency backed by little to nothing. The Fed wanted to be the only one to conjure currency out of thin air and that's what we got. The Fed engineered the great depression along with the banks. They're using the same playbook right now, bankrupting the little guy while giving away billions to their buddies to buy up everything at bargain basement prices. That's exactly what they did before.

    there are too many dollars abroad and not enough goods and services here in the United States to redeem those dollars

    That is incorrect. When too many dollars chase too few goods and services prices rise to soak up the excess. That leads to hyperinflation eventually.

    the U.S. is addicted to its trade deficit

    That's one way to look at it. Dig down and the real culprit is the dollar's reserve currency status that is dwindling rapidly. When fools accept pieces of paper for washing machines, computers, etc, sooner or later that scam stops. It's on its way to stopping at present. Nothing is going to do a Lazarus act on the Dollar. It's dead but hasn't fallen down completely yet.

    China and the rest of the world are forming new alliances right now to continue to bypass the Dollar. It's in no ones best interests to crater the Dollar, but it's like musical chairs. Someone some day is going to be holding green toilet paper.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Audacious Epigone

  77. @RoatanBill
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I am asking for the U.S. to resort to existing institutions and arrangements to stave off the otherwise foreseeable Chinese torpedoing of the dollar.

    We already have existing institutions like the Fed Gov that spends on borrowed funds and a central bank that created fiat out of nothing. The World Bank, BIS, IMF, etc are just more of the same - printing from nothing. What makes you think that when the largest economy in the world and the one with a failing reserve currency hits the wall that any of these phony agencies can clean up the debris?

    China has an estimated 20,000 tons of gold with many believing it has quite a bit more. If China chooses to back their currency with even a percentage of gold, all the fiat currencies are instantly toilet paper, including SDR's, and any other super fiat instruments.

    Fiat money has in fact had a pretty good run.

    You answered a question I didn't ask. Show me where one nation's dead currency saved that nation by using another fiat currency. To the best of my knowledge, once a currency dies, no one wants to deal with the nation it represents for quite some time. Trust is the only thing backing up national currencies and trust is gone when a nation stiffs its partners. Partners want to be paid in something with intrinsic value, not pieces of depreciating or worthless paper, regardless of the source.

    What I want is for the Fed Gov to disappear like a bad smell along with the phony currency, preferring real money. That real money can be anything tangible that the other party is willing to accept. Several states have already passed laws making silver and gold money and many more are looking into it. There's nothing to prevent a state or any municipality from accepting something real as payment for taxes.

    If states eschew the Federal Reserve notes in favor of specie, any dollar catastrophe has less effect on those with real money. Instead of worrying about China, why not demand states allow the use of real money that the entire world will accept by weight in the case of precious metals?

    Replies: @Sick 'n Tired, @V. K. Ovelund, @A123

    China has an estimated 20,000 tons of gold with many believing it has quite a bit more. If China chooses to back their currency with even a percentage of gold, all the fiat currencies are instantly toilet paper, including SDR’s, and any other super fiat instruments.

    China has ingots & bars that are theoretically gold. How much of that is not actually gold? No one knows. China is the origin of both tungsten (1) and copper (2) fakes. Fraud is rampant.

    If China attempts to back a currency with fake gold, they will immediately achieve EPIC FAIL.
    ____

    Using a commodity as a currency creates additional problems, such as:
    • Storage cost for physical inventory
    • Transfers wealth to Gold Mine Owner/Operators
    • Prone to “austerity trap” depressions. Gridlock from too little circulating currency is an economy killer.
    ____

    Everyone understands that USD has *huge* issues. However, there is still no viable alternative:

    -A- EUR has every problem problem of USD, plus a weak Central Bank limited by German industrial export policy.

    -B- RMB is also much worse than USD:
    • There are non-public guarantees between State Owned banks and SOE industrial champions.
    • Economic statistics are known to to be political fabrications: (3)

    Chinese economy grows on fake stats

    National and provincial growth data do not ad up. “In an authoritarian system there is definitely an incentive for statistics officials to publish data that will please the government,” says an economist. Growth figures do not consider the devaluation of the yuan.

    Anyone who claims to know what “RMB is Worth” is either lying or delusional.
    ______

    I would love for someone else to step up as the global trade “Reserve Currency”. The “Reserve Premium” on USD transactions is a disaster for U.S. manufacturing. Every Import to the U.S. is subsidized. Every Export is penalized.

    I really hope that you get your wish and China becomes the “Reserve Currency” nation. Every Chinese Export will surge 3-5% in cost overnight. Every Import to undercut Chinese manufacturing will instantly be 3-5% cheaper. Ending the reserve penalty would bigly accelerate U.S. Re-industrialization. It would be a massive MAGA Renaissance creating U.S. jobs.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) From 2012 — https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/26/the-drilled-gold-bars-filled-with-tungsten/?sh=5583e3834e13

    (2) https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/06/83-tons-of-fake-gold-bars-gold-market-rocked-by-massive-china-counterfeiting-scandal/

    (3) From 2018 — http://asianews.it/news-en/Chinese-economy-grows-on-fake-stats-44791.html

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @A123

    If the Chinese Central Bank accepts counterfeit bars, then they aren't paying attention. A relatively simple experiment using volume and weight can quickly catch either an impure bar or a counterfeit one. It's not rocket surgery.

    I pay storage costs for physical and it's really not that bad. It's not something I worry about.

    The miners and other processors in the chain have some serious costs and their profit will vary from mine to mine. What is so wrong with letting a truly free competitive market operate?

    All the depressions have been purposely engineered by the banks by limiting lending and recalling loans. The banking scam needs to be replaced with a broker model where the banker (broker) gets a fee for service by finding funding sources for people that need loans. No funny money creation necessary.

    Precious metals have been a viable money for thousands of years. I say we go back to sound money and stop listening to the fraud economists and banksters. With real money, not currency, gov't would have to tax for their funds because they couldn't conjure money into existence.

    Gold and silver are the perfect trading currencies. Realistically, what nations do with each other is primitive barter. They could just as well barter Lithium, oil, tankers of LNG, etc. To settle accounts, the parties could use anything they could agree on but concentrated gold and silver are the most convenient.

    I want the concept of a reserve currency gone. I have no idea where you imagined I want China or anyone else to get that privileged status as it leads to corruption.

    Replies: @A123

  78. @V. K. Ovelund
    @RoatanBill


    Show me where one nation’s dead currency saved that nation by using another fiat currency.
     
    I cannot.

    On the other hand, I propose no such maneuver.

    If states eschew the Federal Reserve notes in favor of specie, any dollar catastrophe has less effect on those with real money. Instead of worrying about China, why not demand states allow the use of real money that the entire world will accept by weight in the case of precious metals?
     
    In brief, because it is deflationary, leading to a vicious cycle of wage cuts that wreck labor morale, depressing productivity, causing further wage cuts, as in the United States during the 1830s, 1870s and 1930s.

    Inflation is wretched, but deflation is worse. Falling commodity prices leave farmers, for example, unable to pay debts. We just haven't had any substantial deflation in so long, we've forgotten what it's like.

    In a specie economy, the deflation ultimately works itself out by laying off productive labor, idling factories, and repossessing farms. The resultant, unnecessary scarcity (which exists only because productive assets languish used) puts a floor under falling prices, but it's a heck of a brutal way to do it.

    Regarding China, the problem is twofold: [i] there are too many dollars abroad and not enough goods and services here in the United States to redeem those dollars; and [ii] the U.S. is addicted to its trade deficit. So what happens when China informs the rest of the world that her exporters no longer accept payment in dollars?

    Thank you for asking a specific question. I hope that my answer balances brevity with clarity this time.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    On the other hand, I propose no such maneuver.

    Didn’t you advocate using existing organizations to get the US out of its pickle? Which organizations would that be besides the super fiat producers like the World bank, BIS, IMF, etc?

    Inflation is wretched, but deflation is worse.

    Stop listening to those fraud economists. With no one trying to tweak economic policy (Fed, Regulations, Fractional Reserve lending, etc), you would generally get stable prices, neither inflation nor deflation. Monetary inflation and deflation are always and everywhere central bank initiated events. Price inflation and deflation is a market reaction where everyone votes with their wallet for goods and service. I’d take that any day over the command economy those knucklehead economists propose.

    The problem in the late 1800’s, early 1900’s was banks creating their own currency backed by little to nothing. The Fed wanted to be the only one to conjure currency out of thin air and that’s what we got. The Fed engineered the great depression along with the banks. They’re using the same playbook right now, bankrupting the little guy while giving away billions to their buddies to buy up everything at bargain basement prices. That’s exactly what they did before.

    there are too many dollars abroad and not enough goods and services here in the United States to redeem those dollars

    That is incorrect. When too many dollars chase too few goods and services prices rise to soak up the excess. That leads to hyperinflation eventually.

    the U.S. is addicted to its trade deficit

    That’s one way to look at it. Dig down and the real culprit is the dollar’s reserve currency status that is dwindling rapidly. When fools accept pieces of paper for washing machines, computers, etc, sooner or later that scam stops. It’s on its way to stopping at present. Nothing is going to do a Lazarus act on the Dollar. It’s dead but hasn’t fallen down completely yet.

    China and the rest of the world are forming new alliances right now to continue to bypass the Dollar. It’s in no ones best interests to crater the Dollar, but it’s like musical chairs. Someone some day is going to be holding green toilet paper.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @RoatanBill

    I believe that this is right:


    The problem in the late 1800’s, early 1900’s was banks creating their own currency backed by little to nothing.
     
    Too many loans, too much credit. Were it up to me, I would gradually pressurize banks out of the business of issuing credit against the borrower's signature. Repossession of pledged, bona fide collateral would be the extent to which banks could recover unpaid debt.

    I do not know, but suspect that this would go a long way toward solving the problem you have identified.

    (I do not know whether @Wency is in the thread, but he might notice that such a reform would restrain real property values. I think that that's a good thing. The reform would also slam the demographic Yahya and I were discussing.)

    Replies: @RoatanBill, @anon

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @RoatanBill

    Price inflation and deflation is a market reaction where everyone votes with their wallet for goods and service.

    Sometimes consumer prices decrease while the supply and quality of the consumption item increases--in the case of say smart phones, computers, or televisions. I guess this is the ultimate in deflation--and it's the essence of an improving material standard of living!

    Replies: @RoatanBill

  79. @RoatanBill
    @V. K. Ovelund

    On the other hand, I propose no such maneuver.

    Didn't you advocate using existing organizations to get the US out of its pickle? Which organizations would that be besides the super fiat producers like the World bank, BIS, IMF, etc?

    Inflation is wretched, but deflation is worse.

    Stop listening to those fraud economists. With no one trying to tweak economic policy (Fed, Regulations, Fractional Reserve lending, etc), you would generally get stable prices, neither inflation nor deflation. Monetary inflation and deflation are always and everywhere central bank initiated events. Price inflation and deflation is a market reaction where everyone votes with their wallet for goods and service. I'd take that any day over the command economy those knucklehead economists propose.

    The problem in the late 1800's, early 1900's was banks creating their own currency backed by little to nothing. The Fed wanted to be the only one to conjure currency out of thin air and that's what we got. The Fed engineered the great depression along with the banks. They're using the same playbook right now, bankrupting the little guy while giving away billions to their buddies to buy up everything at bargain basement prices. That's exactly what they did before.

    there are too many dollars abroad and not enough goods and services here in the United States to redeem those dollars

    That is incorrect. When too many dollars chase too few goods and services prices rise to soak up the excess. That leads to hyperinflation eventually.

    the U.S. is addicted to its trade deficit

    That's one way to look at it. Dig down and the real culprit is the dollar's reserve currency status that is dwindling rapidly. When fools accept pieces of paper for washing machines, computers, etc, sooner or later that scam stops. It's on its way to stopping at present. Nothing is going to do a Lazarus act on the Dollar. It's dead but hasn't fallen down completely yet.

    China and the rest of the world are forming new alliances right now to continue to bypass the Dollar. It's in no ones best interests to crater the Dollar, but it's like musical chairs. Someone some day is going to be holding green toilet paper.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Audacious Epigone

    I believe that this is right:

    The problem in the late 1800’s, early 1900’s was banks creating their own currency backed by little to nothing.

    Too many loans, too much credit. Were it up to me, I would gradually pressurize banks out of the business of issuing credit against the borrower’s signature. Repossession of pledged, bona fide collateral would be the extent to which banks could recover unpaid debt.

    I do not know, but suspect that this would go a long way toward solving the problem you have identified.

    (I do not know whether is in the thread, but he might notice that such a reform would restrain real property values. I think that that’s a good thing. The reform would also slam the demographic Yahya and I were discussing.)

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @V. K. Ovelund

    The entire banking system is one giant swindle.

    Banks should become money (not currency) brokers. They find money for people that need a loan. The lender (the person with money to lend) can use his best judgement of the potential borrowers credit worthiness and take the risk for repayment plus interest negotiated between the lender and the borrower, not some central bank. The banker / broker gets a fee for service much like a real estate agent.

    , @anon
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Suggested reading:

    Selections from "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" by Charles MacKay, specifically the Mississippi Bubble, and South Seas Bubble.

    plus

    "Manias, Panics and Crashes" by Charles Kindleberger

    https://www.americanbookwarehouse.com/323457/

    The US functioned just fine with no central bank for generations.

  80. @A123
    @RoatanBill


    China has an estimated 20,000 tons of gold with many believing it has quite a bit more. If China chooses to back their currency with even a percentage of gold, all the fiat currencies are instantly toilet paper, including SDR’s, and any other super fiat instruments.
     
    China has ingots & bars that are theoretically gold. How much of that is not actually gold? No one knows. China is the origin of both tungsten (1) and copper (2) fakes. Fraud is rampant.

    If China attempts to back a currency with fake gold, they will immediately achieve EPIC FAIL.
    ____

    Using a commodity as a currency creates additional problems, such as:
    • Storage cost for physical inventory
    • Transfers wealth to Gold Mine Owner/Operators
    • Prone to "austerity trap" depressions. Gridlock from too little circulating currency is an economy killer.
    ____

    Everyone understands that USD has *huge* issues. However, there is still no viable alternative:

    -A- EUR has every problem problem of USD, plus a weak Central Bank limited by German industrial export policy.

    -B- RMB is also much worse than USD:
    • There are non-public guarantees between State Owned banks and SOE industrial champions.
    • Economic statistics are known to to be political fabrications: (3)


    Chinese economy grows on fake stats

    National and provincial growth data do not ad up. “In an authoritarian system there is definitely an incentive for statistics officials to publish data that will please the government,” says an economist. Growth figures do not consider the devaluation of the yuan.
     

    Anyone who claims to know what "RMB is Worth" is either lying or delusional.
    ______

    I would love for someone else to step up as the global trade "Reserve Currency". The "Reserve Premium" on USD transactions is a disaster for U.S. manufacturing. Every Import to the U.S. is subsidized. Every Export is penalized.

    I really hope that you get your wish and China becomes the "Reserve Currency" nation. Every Chinese Export will surge 3-5% in cost overnight. Every Import to undercut Chinese manufacturing will instantly be 3-5% cheaper. Ending the reserve penalty would bigly accelerate U.S. Re-industrialization. It would be a massive MAGA Renaissance creating U.S. jobs.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) From 2012 -- https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/26/the-drilled-gold-bars-filled-with-tungsten/?sh=5583e3834e13

    (2) https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/06/83-tons-of-fake-gold-bars-gold-market-rocked-by-massive-china-counterfeiting-scandal/

    (3) From 2018 -- http://asianews.it/news-en/Chinese-economy-grows-on-fake-stats-44791.html

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    If the Chinese Central Bank accepts counterfeit bars, then they aren’t paying attention. A relatively simple experiment using volume and weight can quickly catch either an impure bar or a counterfeit one. It’s not rocket surgery.

    I pay storage costs for physical and it’s really not that bad. It’s not something I worry about.

    The miners and other processors in the chain have some serious costs and their profit will vary from mine to mine. What is so wrong with letting a truly free competitive market operate?

    All the depressions have been purposely engineered by the banks by limiting lending and recalling loans. The banking scam needs to be replaced with a broker model where the banker (broker) gets a fee for service by finding funding sources for people that need loans. No funny money creation necessary.

    Precious metals have been a viable money for thousands of years. I say we go back to sound money and stop listening to the fraud economists and banksters. With real money, not currency, gov’t would have to tax for their funds because they couldn’t conjure money into existence.

    Gold and silver are the perfect trading currencies. Realistically, what nations do with each other is primitive barter. They could just as well barter Lithium, oil, tankers of LNG, etc. To settle accounts, the parties could use anything they could agree on but concentrated gold and silver are the most convenient.

    I want the concept of a reserve currency gone. I have no idea where you imagined I want China or anyone else to get that privileged status as it leads to corruption.

    • Replies: @A123
    @RoatanBill


    If the Chinese Central Bank accepts counterfeit bars, then they aren’t paying attention. A relatively simple experiment using volume and weight can quickly catch either an impure bar or a counterfeit one. It’s not rocket surgery.
     
    Correct. Large amounts of easily detected fraud is taking place. As a practical matter this means that the borrower, lender, and regulator are co-collaborators enabling the criminal activity. Given that CCP Elites control all three, this is not a surprise.

    I pay storage costs for physical and it’s really not that bad. It’s not something I worry about.
     
    Personal storage is fairly straightforward. Industrial/Banking storage needs to be insured, audited, etc. It is much more expensive than holding computer records.

    Precious metals have been a viable money for thousands of years. I say we go back to sound money and stop listening to the fraud economists and banksters.
     
    A $1,000,000 FedWire costs the bank 0.40-0.80¢. How much does it cost to physically ship $1,000,000 of precious metals? How long does it take?

    Allowing electronic transfer of ownership of a "vault asset" opens the door to the creation of "fiat ounces" just like " fiat USD/EUR/RMB".

    They could just as well barter Lithium, oil, tankers of LNG, etc
     
    Barter is non-standardized and therefore includes extra labor & expense on every transaction. Fiat currencies are always standard and consistent. This makes each transaction less expensive and more reliable.
    _____

    I understand why you dislike fiat currencies. However, 99%+ of transactions are handled via fiat currencies (including digital). The near total elimination of barter points at the inherent inefficiencies of the method.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @RoatanBill, @Audacious Epigone

  81. @V. K. Ovelund
    @RoatanBill

    I believe that this is right:


    The problem in the late 1800’s, early 1900’s was banks creating their own currency backed by little to nothing.
     
    Too many loans, too much credit. Were it up to me, I would gradually pressurize banks out of the business of issuing credit against the borrower's signature. Repossession of pledged, bona fide collateral would be the extent to which banks could recover unpaid debt.

    I do not know, but suspect that this would go a long way toward solving the problem you have identified.

    (I do not know whether @Wency is in the thread, but he might notice that such a reform would restrain real property values. I think that that's a good thing. The reform would also slam the demographic Yahya and I were discussing.)

    Replies: @RoatanBill, @anon

    The entire banking system is one giant swindle.

    Banks should become money (not currency) brokers. They find money for people that need a loan. The lender (the person with money to lend) can use his best judgement of the potential borrowers credit worthiness and take the risk for repayment plus interest negotiated between the lender and the borrower, not some central bank. The banker / broker gets a fee for service much like a real estate agent.

  82. @V. K. Ovelund
    @RoatanBill

    I believe that this is right:


    The problem in the late 1800’s, early 1900’s was banks creating their own currency backed by little to nothing.
     
    Too many loans, too much credit. Were it up to me, I would gradually pressurize banks out of the business of issuing credit against the borrower's signature. Repossession of pledged, bona fide collateral would be the extent to which banks could recover unpaid debt.

    I do not know, but suspect that this would go a long way toward solving the problem you have identified.

    (I do not know whether @Wency is in the thread, but he might notice that such a reform would restrain real property values. I think that that's a good thing. The reform would also slam the demographic Yahya and I were discussing.)

    Replies: @RoatanBill, @anon

    Suggested reading:

    Selections from “Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds” by Charles MacKay, specifically the Mississippi Bubble, and South Seas Bubble.

    plus

    “Manias, Panics and Crashes” by Charles Kindleberger

    https://www.americanbookwarehouse.com/323457/

    The US functioned just fine with no central bank for generations.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
  83. @Almost Missouri
    @bob sykes

    The Soviet Union successfully devolved into its constituent parts without killing millions, or even thousands.

    When you consider that Federal perversities already get thousands killed every year, then the Sovieterdammerung model looks like a great bargain.

    #EndTheEvilEmpire #SelfDeterminationNow

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @JL, @Mike Tre

    The Soviet Union did not have a parasitic African underclass of 40 million. Look, all this talk of dollars, ports, economies, who gets where, are certainly important, but the great big elephant in the room are of course, the negroes. None of the former matter if the latter has a say or is expected to pull their weight, economically, socially, or civically. They are by nature incapable of functioning in a first world society as a population, unless of course, you mean to once again subject them to intensive local authority (see the pre civil rights south)?

    All the separate nations talk, even in Sailer’s comment section, ignore the NQ. What are to be done with them? Despite whatever they say, they will always seek out the productivity of the Euro descended people. The separate nation that agrees to take in the negroes will soon be appealing to the nations that did not for assistance with their negro problem. Here, in the comments, it is easy to say “we’ll never take them!” but in reality, I seriously doubt that.

    Right out of the gate, they will go on the dole in the leftist nations and attempt to steal from the other nations.

    And we haven’t even talked about the southwest and south central Asians who are pretty much unassimilable; vile, dim, hostile, dirty, dishonest that they are.

    What are your separate nations going to do with these people? Because if the people who make up these separate nations don’t change, then you’re just going to end up with smaller versions of the original and failing United States. And if the solution is mass relocation into the new separate nation best suited for them, who not just send them packing back to their country of origin in the first place, and not concede any part of the existing US to them at all?

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Mike Tre


    The Soviet Union did not have a parasitic African underclass of 40 million.
     
    No, but they did (and do) have an underclass of criminal Chechens and alcoholic Slavs, and they were (and are) a problem. But all societies have underclasses. They do not become an existential problem unless they are artificially empowered, as our underclass is.

    None of the former matter if the latter has a say or is expected to pull their weight, economically, socially, or civically.
     
    They don't have to "pull their weight" (they don't actually have much constructive weight to pull in the first place, a major cause of the original problem is the unmeetable expectation that it is possible for them to "pull their weight"), they just have to stop being a deadweight on everyone else who is pulling their weight. In practice this means reducing/ending society-destroying welfare systems. The current FedGov won't do this because those welfare-takers are their footsoldiers, paid in fiat money.

    Despite whatever they say, they will always seek out the productivity of the Euro descended people.
     
    True, but that is no reason for the Euro-descended people to cooperate in their looting and dispossession. Restore Freedom of Association and 80% of this problem goes away. Ten percent of the problem is virtue signalers "paying the toll", but that is ultimately self-correcting. The last 10% is hard to fix without extreme measures, but let us not make the perfect the enemy of the good. A 90% solution is vastly superior to a 100% problem.

    Right out of the gate, they will go on the dole in the leftist nations
     
    That's very unfortunate for the leftist nations. Maybe don't be a leftist nation?

    The problem right now is the whole nation is the leftist nation, because the FedGov wants it that way and state sovereignty is mostly a fiction. Restore local sovereignty, disempowering the FedGov, and sovereign competition solves most of this automatically. No local authority wants a destructive underclass. The few actually asking for it now are only doing so because they're getting bribed in Federal fiat dollars to take them.

    and attempt to steal from the other nations.
     
    There used to be these things called borders. We need them again.

    if the people who make up these separate nations don’t change, then you’re just going to end up with smaller versions of the original and failing United States. And if the solution is mass relocation into the new separate nation best suited for them, who not just send them packing back to their country of origin in the first place, and not concede any part of the existing US to them at all?
     
    The reason the United States is failing is that it is empowering the destructive people and kneecapping the productive people. Switch that around and the destructive people will send themselves packing. Switch that around in a part of the [perhaps former] United States and the other parts will quickly figure out that they need to switch it around too.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

  84. @Almost Missouri
    @JL

    Chechnya and Transdnestria are examples of non-secession. Tajikistan was a case of thwarted secession. So all of these are examples of the perils of inhibiting secession, not the perils of allowing secession.

    Armenia/Azerbaijan was a war between two sovereign powers after they had seceded from the USSR. But then the war was to prevent the secession of the Nagorno-Karabakh from Azerbaijan to Armenia. So again, when secession is impeded, the blood starts to flow.

    Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan and Georgia, among others, all seceded from the Soviet Union with little or no violence.

    Similarly, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and East Germany had hundreds of thousands of Soviet troops stationed in them, yet they all managed to go their own way with nary a shot fired. Czechoslovakia later separated into Czechia and Slovakia, again, without violence.

    The US's worst-ever war was the Civil War, which was waged to prevent the South's legitimate secession.

    Preventing secession is indeed a bloody business, which is why no one who isn't a bloodthirsty maniac should be against it.

    Replies: @mark green

    The US’s worst-ever war was the Civil War, which was waged to prevent the South’s legitimate secession.

    You are correct. And Lincoln’s denial of the Southern states’ desire to peacefully secede will not be forgotten by the modern anti-secessionists who will fight tooth-and-nail to preserve our dysfunctional ‘union’.

    What’s worse, anti-secessionists are (I suspect) greater in number and far far greater in wealth/influence than those of us who want to see the militarized behemoth otherwise known as the USA cut down to size.

    You can also bet that the comfortable, the rich, the connected, as well as the entire political establishment will generally resist any attempt to break up the USA.

    Despite our nation’s growing flaws, the mega-rich as well as our ruling establishment still pretty much likes things the way they are. Plus, with secession, there would be huge challenges involving our monetary system–not to mention our military establishment.

    Some questions:

    Would the dollar be the new trans-regional currency?

    If so, which region would be in charge of printing dollars?

    And what about the military? Would all the new nations which emerge from the carcass of the former USA have their own separate armies?–and nuclear weapons, too?

    These are not unimportant issues.

    Breaking up the USA would not likely be permitted by the SCOTUS unless many many conditions were met. The legal hurdles would be exhausting. Existing institutions such as the courts as well as the military would almost certainly resist lawful secession.

    With these facts in mind, the most practical way to achieve greater autonomy and personal independence would be to shrink the federal government by 50% and reduce federal taxes by a similar figure.

    This strategy would allow the USA would endure but allow the next step: namely the re-empowerment of the various ‘united’ states.

    Each state would become semi-autonomous. There should also be a mechanism within each state to override any egregious, liberty-denying decision imposed by the SCOTUS over the past century, not to mention most of the freedom-killing ‘civil rights’ legislation passed since WWII.

    Since abolishing the USA would be next to impossible, reinvigorating ‘States Rights’ is the most efficient and practical way to reclaim lost liberty.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund, anarchyst
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @mark green


    What’s worse, anti-secessionists are (I suspect) greater in number
     
    Looking at AE's chart and other indicators, I gather that secessionists are about 30%, anti-secessionists are about 30%, and the waffle-y/low info/undecided middle is about 40%.

    and far far greater in wealth/influence than those of us who want to see the militarized behemoth otherwise known as the USA cut down to size.
     
    Agreed, but 1) that wealth/influence is largely tied to and a product of fiat dollars, and 2) despite that wealth/influence, our numbers are growing while theirs are shrinking. So maybe wealth/influence isn't everything.

    Would the dollar be the new trans-regional currency?
     
    Probably, unless the Federal Reserve's incontinence has inflated it away by then. But I would want to decouple from the Federal Reserve thievery with all deliberate speed.

    If so, which region would be in charge of printing dollars?
     
    Whichever region has the soundest currency. Note that:

    1) There's nothing wrong with a gold standard (which happens to be in the Constitution).

    2) There's nothing wrong with having multiple currencies. The US did during it's early decades (US, Spanish, Mexican, and local) and real economic growth was higher then than now.

    3) The not very hidden agenda of maximum-granularity dissolution and reformation is that the red regions have pretty easy and obvious common interest and contiguity, so in reality total secession and dissolution would likely lead rapidly to a large red nation reconstitution along originalist Constitutional lines. The only "regions" would be diversity-choked blue islands floundering on the fringes.

    Would all the new nations which emerge from the carcass of the former USA have their own separate armies?
     
    They already do. They're called "state militias", or nowadays, "National Guards". Those happen to be in the Constitution. A standing Federal Army is not. For good reason.

    –and nuclear weapons, too?
     
    North Central Plains states may emerge as the world's foremost nuclear power. And that's a good thing. Certainly better than having the idiots and psychos in DC with their fingers on the button.

    Breaking up the USA would not likely be permitted by the SCOTUS
     
    Haha. Who's asking them? Only deliberate obstructionists. "permitted" ... haha, as if they get a say in this.

    Existing institutions such as the courts as well as the military would almost certainly resist lawful secession.
     
    Of course Federal courts think you must submit to Federal authority. Only a fool would ask them to be "permitted" to secede, haha, sorry, the notion is just so funny. Like if George Washington had asked a Royal Court in Westminster, "May we please stop being your colony?" Haha. The thing about Independence is, you don't need permission. By definition.

    The military (i.e., the unconstitutional Federal standing army) is another matter. The Pentagon would almost certainly resent having the country that pays for their nonsense pull out from under them, however justly. On the other hand, what're they gonna do about it? Most of their actual trigger-pullers lean strongly red, despite wokeshevik efforts to change that. And even the non-trigger-pulling soldiers have to live somewhere. There's only so much barrack space in DC, so most of them (who aren't already deployed overseas) live in states, mostly red states, which also happen to be where they mostly come from. Even if the military adheres to their wokeshevik flag officer/tyrants, the modern US military on an unlimited budget could not pacify a few million Afghani goat herders in 20 years of trying. What are their chances on hyperinflating fiat currency against 100 million of their extended family before their food, water and fuel supplies run out?

    Since abolishing the USA would be next to impossible, reinvigorating ‘States Rights’ is the most efficient and practical way to reclaim lost liberty.
     
    The power to "reinvigorate" states rights is basically the same thing as the power to abolish and reconstitute the United States. And the power standing against both is the same too: the illegitimate power of the banking cartel. When the banking cartel's prime weapon—fiat currency—weakens sufficiently, revolutionary conditions will automatically pertain anyway, so the only question becomes, "what are we gonna do about it?", in an environment where fiat currency access no longer matters and the willingness and ability to secure territory suddenly matters a great deal.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Wency
    @mark green

    I'd agree with most of this, but would add that there's one other important variable weighing against secession: willingness to die.

    I point to the example of Catalonia, which no one else seems to ever bring up in these discussions. Catalonian politicians, with what seems to have been around 60% support from the population, declared independence. Then the central government just sent in law enforcement to arrest them, without shots fired. And now Catalonians seem to be largely over it.

    That 60% support might not seem so far from the perhaps 70-80% support the Confederate states had for secession, but actually it was several light years short of it. The difference is that in the Confederacy, people were prepared to fight, die, and sacrifice for the cause. People saying they support secession in these polls in Spain, the US, or any other modern decadent state are simply looking to signal disapproval of the central government, in a "complain about them on Twitter before going back to whatever I was watching on Netflix" sort of way. They're not signaling willingness to die, or to otherwise sacrifice, or to even give tacit support and cover to those willing to die.

    And the forces that want to keep this country together can't possibly be blocked by anything short of a locally-popular, well-organized movement of men willing to die. And I can't say such a movement will never arise in this country, only that a culture capable of producing it would be unrecognizable next to the culture of the present-day US.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @mark green

    The rhetorical counter to the allusion to the internecine war in the 1860s is to note that the United States was born through secession. Political dissolution is as American as 1776.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  85. @RoatanBill
    @A123

    If the Chinese Central Bank accepts counterfeit bars, then they aren't paying attention. A relatively simple experiment using volume and weight can quickly catch either an impure bar or a counterfeit one. It's not rocket surgery.

    I pay storage costs for physical and it's really not that bad. It's not something I worry about.

    The miners and other processors in the chain have some serious costs and their profit will vary from mine to mine. What is so wrong with letting a truly free competitive market operate?

    All the depressions have been purposely engineered by the banks by limiting lending and recalling loans. The banking scam needs to be replaced with a broker model where the banker (broker) gets a fee for service by finding funding sources for people that need loans. No funny money creation necessary.

    Precious metals have been a viable money for thousands of years. I say we go back to sound money and stop listening to the fraud economists and banksters. With real money, not currency, gov't would have to tax for their funds because they couldn't conjure money into existence.

    Gold and silver are the perfect trading currencies. Realistically, what nations do with each other is primitive barter. They could just as well barter Lithium, oil, tankers of LNG, etc. To settle accounts, the parties could use anything they could agree on but concentrated gold and silver are the most convenient.

    I want the concept of a reserve currency gone. I have no idea where you imagined I want China or anyone else to get that privileged status as it leads to corruption.

    Replies: @A123

    If the Chinese Central Bank accepts counterfeit bars, then they aren’t paying attention. A relatively simple experiment using volume and weight can quickly catch either an impure bar or a counterfeit one. It’s not rocket surgery.

    Correct. Large amounts of easily detected fraud is taking place. As a practical matter this means that the borrower, lender, and regulator are co-collaborators enabling the criminal activity. Given that CCP Elites control all three, this is not a surprise.

    I pay storage costs for physical and it’s really not that bad. It’s not something I worry about.

    Personal storage is fairly straightforward. Industrial/Banking storage needs to be insured, audited, etc. It is much more expensive than holding computer records.

    Precious metals have been a viable money for thousands of years. I say we go back to sound money and stop listening to the fraud economists and banksters.

    A $1,000,000 FedWire costs the bank 0.40-0.80¢. How much does it cost to physically ship $1,000,000 of precious metals? How long does it take?

    Allowing electronic transfer of ownership of a “vault asset” opens the door to the creation of “fiat ounces” just like ” fiat USD/EUR/RMB”.

    They could just as well barter Lithium, oil, tankers of LNG, etc

    Barter is non-standardized and therefore includes extra labor & expense on every transaction. Fiat currencies are always standard and consistent. This makes each transaction less expensive and more reliable.
    _____

    I understand why you dislike fiat currencies. However, 99%+ of transactions are handled via fiat currencies (including digital). The near total elimination of barter points at the inherent inefficiencies of the method.

    PEACE 😇

    • Agree: Gordo
    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @A123

    If people are greedy enough to defraud the CCP, then they have more guts than I do. China routinely executes people for activity that would land a US equivalent in one of the day spa "prisons".

    My PM stock is insured, audited, and I have pictures and serial numbers of every item. I'm not stupid. I always purchase segregated that is registered in my name, not some pool.

    Physical metal almost never has to get shipped anywhere. I deposit my PM's in a facility. They give me a debit card denominated in grams and fractions of grams, for example, and I spend on a car by paying 20 ounces of gold and 5 ounces of silver. The only thing that gets changed is an accounting entry that the dealer now own more metal and I own less. Notice there's no phony Dollar, Euro, Yen, etc involved, no currency arbitrage with middlemen taking a cut. It's all done in weight of metal. If there's a balance of payments issue, that's when physical metal gets moved and that would usually be by the ton.

    As far as fiat PM receipts is concerned, I know how much I deposited and my statement tells me how much I spent and what's left. It's no different than current credit / debit card charges. Can someone on the inside pilfer metal or cook the books, that's always possible, but safeguards have been developed over decades and the insurance companies would monitor their exposure.

    Barter was used till Nixon closed the gold window. The barter item was gold, but that's for convenience as you say. There's nothing preventing Germany, for example, accepting shipments of LNG to run their industries for a balance of payment correction. Admittedly the metals are easier and cheaper to handle, but tankers have to move to get paid, so if they move under a gov't contract worth billions, any handling is just part of the barter agreement.

    I'm not suggesting barter for groceries or to fill a gas tank. I am suggesting that although PM's are the preferred medium of exchange, it could also be something else that the parties can agree on at a very high level between major corporations or governments involving large debts.

    Countries kept their gold in the US and other places as a trust issue. This facilitated rapid movement of metals when necessary and usually in very large amounts.

    Replies: @A123

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @A123

    A $1,000,000 FedWire costs the bank 0.40-0.80¢. How much does it cost to physically ship $1,000,000 of precious metals? How long does it take?

    This can easily be done electronically. The only reason it is not viable now is because of undue financial regulations. The tech is there to do it for virtually nothing.

    Replies: @A123

  86. anon[308] • Disclaimer says:
    @TG
    You had it right the first time: the rich who own this country will never let a dissolution happen.

    But, there is one interesting example to consider. After the world's first successful slave revolt, the whites in Haiti themselves revolted, and carved out the nation of the Dominican Republic from part of the island of Hispaniola.

    Curiously, while we are told that borders are evil, the Dominicans don't seem to have any trouble keeping Haitians on their side of the island, and the corporate press is not up in arms about how terrible the Dominicans are. I guess our rulers like the beaches there.

    Replies: @CapNemo, @anon

    But, there is one interesting example to consider. After the world’s first successful slave revolt, the whites in Haiti themselves revolted, and carved out the nation of the Dominican Republic from part of the island of Hispaniola.

    No. That’s not even close to the history.

    The recorded history of the Dominican Republic began when the Genoa-born navigator Christopher Columbus, working for the Spanish Crown, happened upon a large island in the region of the western Atlantic Ocean that later came to be known as the Caribbean. It was inhabited by the Taíno, an Arawakan people, who variously called their island Ayiti, Bohio, or Quisqueya (Kiskeya). Columbus promptly claimed the island for the Spanish Crown, naming it La Isla Española (“the Spanish Island”), later Latinized to Hispaniola. What would become the Dominican Republic was the Spanish Captaincy General of Santo Domingo until 1821, except for a time as a French colony from 1795 to 1809. It was then part of a unified Hispaniola with Haiti from 1822 until 1844. In 1844, Dominican independence was proclaimed and the republic, which was often known as Santo Domingo until the early 20th century, maintained its independence except for a short Spanish occupation from 1861 to 1865 and occupation by the United States from 1916 to 1924.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Dominican_Republic

    Currently the DR is in the process of building a very secure fence along the border, all 234 miles.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/dominican-republic-to-construct-fence-along-border-with-haiti/ar-BB1e4BGp

  87. @A123
    @RoatanBill


    If the Chinese Central Bank accepts counterfeit bars, then they aren’t paying attention. A relatively simple experiment using volume and weight can quickly catch either an impure bar or a counterfeit one. It’s not rocket surgery.
     
    Correct. Large amounts of easily detected fraud is taking place. As a practical matter this means that the borrower, lender, and regulator are co-collaborators enabling the criminal activity. Given that CCP Elites control all three, this is not a surprise.

    I pay storage costs for physical and it’s really not that bad. It’s not something I worry about.
     
    Personal storage is fairly straightforward. Industrial/Banking storage needs to be insured, audited, etc. It is much more expensive than holding computer records.

    Precious metals have been a viable money for thousands of years. I say we go back to sound money and stop listening to the fraud economists and banksters.
     
    A $1,000,000 FedWire costs the bank 0.40-0.80¢. How much does it cost to physically ship $1,000,000 of precious metals? How long does it take?

    Allowing electronic transfer of ownership of a "vault asset" opens the door to the creation of "fiat ounces" just like " fiat USD/EUR/RMB".

    They could just as well barter Lithium, oil, tankers of LNG, etc
     
    Barter is non-standardized and therefore includes extra labor & expense on every transaction. Fiat currencies are always standard and consistent. This makes each transaction less expensive and more reliable.
    _____

    I understand why you dislike fiat currencies. However, 99%+ of transactions are handled via fiat currencies (including digital). The near total elimination of barter points at the inherent inefficiencies of the method.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @RoatanBill, @Audacious Epigone

    If people are greedy enough to defraud the CCP, then they have more guts than I do. China routinely executes people for activity that would land a US equivalent in one of the day spa “prisons”.

    My PM stock is insured, audited, and I have pictures and serial numbers of every item. I’m not stupid. I always purchase segregated that is registered in my name, not some pool.

    Physical metal almost never has to get shipped anywhere. I deposit my PM’s in a facility. They give me a debit card denominated in grams and fractions of grams, for example, and I spend on a car by paying 20 ounces of gold and 5 ounces of silver. The only thing that gets changed is an accounting entry that the dealer now own more metal and I own less. Notice there’s no phony Dollar, Euro, Yen, etc involved, no currency arbitrage with middlemen taking a cut. It’s all done in weight of metal. If there’s a balance of payments issue, that’s when physical metal gets moved and that would usually be by the ton.

    As far as fiat PM receipts is concerned, I know how much I deposited and my statement tells me how much I spent and what’s left. It’s no different than current credit / debit card charges. Can someone on the inside pilfer metal or cook the books, that’s always possible, but safeguards have been developed over decades and the insurance companies would monitor their exposure.

    Barter was used till Nixon closed the gold window. The barter item was gold, but that’s for convenience as you say. There’s nothing preventing Germany, for example, accepting shipments of LNG to run their industries for a balance of payment correction. Admittedly the metals are easier and cheaper to handle, but tankers have to move to get paid, so if they move under a gov’t contract worth billions, any handling is just part of the barter agreement.

    I’m not suggesting barter for groceries or to fill a gas tank. I am suggesting that although PM’s are the preferred medium of exchange, it could also be something else that the parties can agree on at a very high level between major corporations or governments involving large debts.

    Countries kept their gold in the US and other places as a trust issue. This facilitated rapid movement of metals when necessary and usually in very large amounts.

    • Replies: @A123
    @RoatanBill


    If people are greedy enough to defraud the CCP, then they have more guts than I do. China routinely executes people for activity that would land a US equivalent in one of the day spa “prisons”.
     
    I am not saying that people are defrauding the CCP Elites. Just the opposite. The CCP Elites are the source of the fraud.

    The CCP Elite routinely executes non-elite commoners. Also, former Elites that haven fallen out of favour.

    Physical metal almost never has to get shipped anywhere. I deposit my PM’s in a facility. They give me a debit card denominated in grams and fractions of grams, for example, and I spend on a car by paying 20 ounces of gold and 5 ounces of silver. The only thing that gets changed is an accounting entry that the dealer now own more metal and I own less.
    ....
    Can someone on the inside pilfer metal or cook the books, that’s always possible, but safeguards have been developed over decades and the insurance companies would monitor their exposure.
     
    Who would own these repositories? The wealthy Elites that own banks? Or, possibly the Elite controlled government?

    This seems prone to systemic fraud starting from the top if the power structure. It is based on digital records that "should" tally to the amount on deposit. There is a huge amount of wealth available for extraction by the Elites if they decide that the rules do not apply to themselves. Elite audit firms & Elite insurance companies would gladly participate in the extraction as long as they get their share of the looting.
    ______

    The problem is not currency type (hard dollar vs. fiat dollar). The issue is Elite domination of the currency system.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @RoatanBill

  88. @Sick 'n Tired
    @RoatanBill

    "To the best of my knowledge, once a currency dies, no one wants to deal with the nation it represents for quite some time. Trust is the only thing backing up national currencies and trust is gone when a nation stiffs its partners. Partners want to be paid in something with intrinsic value, not pieces of depreciating or worthless paper, regardless of the source."

    This is exactly what China did with Zimbabwe, and how they are making huge inroads into the African continent. Building ports, railways, roadways, power grids and industrial agriculture into countries that are cash poor but resource rich has been going on for quite a while, but China has taken it to the next level. The tin pot dictators are happy to fill their Swiss bank accounts, take credit for the improvements the Chinese are providing, and the Chinese are happy knowing that in 30-50 years, they'll be in full control of the countries.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    I completely agree with you.

    The Chinese are taking natural resources as barter for infrastructure projects. At some point, they’re going to jew the countries and own what they’ve built besides. They learned that from the Economic Hitman operations the IMF, world bank, etc have been using to do the same thing for decades.

    The crooks in gov’t always sell out their populations. That’s why I’m an anarchist – rules but no rulers.

  89. @bob sykes
    Separation requires large scale population transfers, a la Pakistan-India. That would be a bloody mess, with hundreds of thousands or millions being killed. Afterwards there would have to be rigorous border controls restricting movement. No more driving from Florida to Maine to visit granny for Thanksgiving.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Audacious Epigone, @Chris Mallory

    The 20th Century was filled with population transfers and break ups of countries. The question is will we have a Czech/Slovak separation or a Yugoslav separation.

  90. @RebelWriter
    @Supply and Demand

    "People alive today should be punished for what people did 200 years ago."

    Noice.

    Of course this leaves out the very minor point that while Southerners did indeed purchase the Africans, they did not import them. New England shipping merchants were responsible for the vast majority of the US portion of the North Atlantic Slave Trade.

    If I am to bear blame for my ancestors having owned slaves, then I should at least also have some grace given that so many of my ancestors fought for the Colonies in the American Revolution.

    Replies: @Supply and Demand

    I’m perfectly open to punishing the New Englanders as well. I was born in Wisconsin.

    Saddle a bill squarely on Brown University and the Boston shipping magnates, payable directly to every groid in the country. Still doesn’t change the fact that Southerners need another century of black-run reconstruction as a form accountability and just punishment for ruining America.

    • Replies: @Curle
    @Supply and Demand

    The last day of the slave trade was January 1, 1808, approximately 26 years following the Treaty of Paris. Before 1713, black slaves in the colonies numbered fewer than the Native American slaves exported out of South Carolina in 1713 alone. Pre-1713 America was a near total white/NA society. Black slaves didn’t exceed whites as plantation workers until around 1750 and only amounted to approximately an 60/40 black/white split for plantation workers over the course of the entire century.

    Blacks may have been the largest workforce for the plantation economy in the 18th century but not for the overall agricultural economy which was dominated by white yeoman farmers supplying the majority of domestic production. Only 1/10 southerners owned slaves at slavery’s peak.

    The southern economy was explicitly designed for agricultural production by the British in the 17th century with the Brutish going so far as to bar much urban manufacture and incorporation of cities in the largest colonies, Virginia and the Carolinas, so manufacturing would not impede agricultural growth. Up to the Civil War it was the British demand for cotton to feed its textile industries that propped up the plantation economy.

    If you need to blame someone for Black slavery in North America you need to point the finger at the British colonial office of the 18th century not the generality of the southern population. It is the British who designed the whole colonial economy.

    Replies: @Supply and Demand

  91. @Anon
    @Stealth

    Where do you think the south's wefare money comes from?

    Replies: @Stealth

    Same place it comes from for Pennsylvania, Vermont, Rhode Island, Delaware, etc. Most states take more from the federal coffers than they put in.

    Outside of a few areas, notably the port cities, the Northeast just isn’t all that nice. Poverty is rampant. I’ve seen plenty of people living in the kind of squalid conditions that I thought only existed in the worst parts of Southern ghettos.

  92. @rebel yell
    Why will separation change anything?
    Dodge City Kansas is now majority Mexican because corporations want open borders for cheap labor. Are you saying after separation big corporations won't run things in red states? Not likely.
    You'll get the same government you have now, but it will be called Topeka instead of Washington.
    Voters in the new separated Kansas will find that their votes don't count for the same reasons their votes don't count now in the USA.
    The real question is why those anti-majority forces are winning already in places like NY and CA. Separation doesn't address the root causes.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Why will separation change anything?

    It might make things worse. Imagine a separated mini-nation with permanent Republican government. Is it conceivable that such a permanent Republican government might cave in to demands of the corporate lobby and the small business sector and promote massive Third World immigration?

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
  93. @Almost Missouri
    What jumps out at me is that even in regions where Republicans know they will end up in the permanent minority, their support for secession is still relatively strong, while in redder regions were Dems will be minorities, Dem support for secession is vanishing weak. This implies that contrary to their #Resistance propaganda, Dems know perfectly well that they already run everything nationally, so they are terrified of a secession that would put them in the minority of a sovereign body. By contrast, Repubs know that they have no power now, the so the structural change of secession holds fewer fears for them.

    Be all that as it may, I continue to believe that the way to approach secession is not in arbitrary regional blocs, but county-by-county (or parish for Louisianans). It is the lowest level of consequential government, so it is the most granular and individuated self-determination (remember when we fought wars for self-determination?). It is also relatively consistent administratively across states, and includes all non-Federal lands, so it is comprehensive. It would also instantly liberate the 5/6 of American counties from the 1/6 that rule over them.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @WorkingClass, @MBlanc46

    Exactly right, AM. This can’t be solved top down. The only way to break up the monstrosity is from the bottom up, even block by block, slowly withdrawing, refusing to participate.

  94. So, support for dissolution comes from local powers wishing to maintain and entrench their power.

    This is implicit in the idea that the opposition in these new states would be “left to twist in the wind”.

    What are these new states – motivated by the acquisition of power – going to do about their fellows twisting in the wind? The history of Europe in the 1930’s might be instructive in this regard.

  95. This is all academic, of course. Popular support is irrelevant: elite support is the important factor. The likeliest to secede under the Biden regime is a red state, Texas or Florida, and will the Bidenistas permit it? Of course not. American history in the 1860’s may be instructive in this regard.

  96. @Almost Missouri
    @CCZ

    Except for Hawaii (plurality Asian), every state is plurality white.

    Except for Hawaii, California and New Mexico, every state is plurality non-Hispanic white.

    Except for the above, plus Texas and Nevada, every state is majority non-Hispanic white.

    As indocon suggests, most Hispanics are aspirationally white. If they had wanted to live in Central America, they would have stayed home. Offered a choice between neo-Central America and a "white" country, they will choose white. Ditto Asians.

    In a straight-up race referendum by state, white will win, hard.

    The only race with aspirations for self-determination are blacks, and that is a) delusional and b) probably not even a majority of blacks. Most blacks understand that everything that works for their benefit is run by whites, and those that don't would figure it out pretty quickly.

    Contra the graphics in this comment, the Old South (green in the first graphic) is in good shape racially. Mississippi has the narrowest white majority, and that is a 19 percentage point lead of whites over blacks. All the other Old South states have even larger white majorities. The only place in the US with a black plurality is the District of Columbia, which is a) not a State, and b) they made their bed, let them lie in it a while.

    This is not to say that the Left is not hard at work undermining this situation. They are. So there is no reason to extend the status quo artificially while they continue their pernicious work. The sooner everyone gets self-determination, the sooner the rot can stop.

    Replies: @Curle, @Luzzatto

    Hispanics are NOT aspirationallly White. You come off as extremely low IQ.Hispanics are down with La Raza and they do NOT mean White Nationalism when they say La Raza they mean Brown Pride!

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Luzzatto

    Thanks for the video. I have watched it on your advice.


    Hispanics are NOT aspirationallly White.
     
    The athlete in the video seemed pretty reasonable, but you are right: he is not aspirationally white.

    Many other Hispanics however are indeed aspirationally white—not least because many are whiter than the athlete in the video. The question is in play.

    Non-Hispanic whites in the United States have foolishly allowed themselves to be maneuvered into a position in which they need Hispanic help, but it is what it is. Ally with Hispanics, or lose. Hispanics, especially Mexicans, have the largest, most persuadable bloc of votes other than our own bloc.

    That's my estimate of the situation, at any rate. But no, trying to win over the specific athlete in the video is probably a waste of time. Better not to alienate him, and then instead to win over his children 20 years from now.

    Replies: @Luzzatto, @Twinkie

  97. @Mike Tre
    @Almost Missouri

    The Soviet Union did not have a parasitic African underclass of 40 million. Look, all this talk of dollars, ports, economies, who gets where, are certainly important, but the great big elephant in the room are of course, the negroes. None of the former matter if the latter has a say or is expected to pull their weight, economically, socially, or civically. They are by nature incapable of functioning in a first world society as a population, unless of course, you mean to once again subject them to intensive local authority (see the pre civil rights south)?

    All the separate nations talk, even in Sailer's comment section, ignore the NQ. What are to be done with them? Despite whatever they say, they will always seek out the productivity of the Euro descended people. The separate nation that agrees to take in the negroes will soon be appealing to the nations that did not for assistance with their negro problem. Here, in the comments, it is easy to say "we'll never take them!" but in reality, I seriously doubt that.

    Right out of the gate, they will go on the dole in the leftist nations and attempt to steal from the other nations.

    And we haven't even talked about the southwest and south central Asians who are pretty much unassimilable; vile, dim, hostile, dirty, dishonest that they are.

    What are your separate nations going to do with these people? Because if the people who make up these separate nations don't change, then you're just going to end up with smaller versions of the original and failing United States. And if the solution is mass relocation into the new separate nation best suited for them, who not just send them packing back to their country of origin in the first place, and not concede any part of the existing US to them at all?

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    The Soviet Union did not have a parasitic African underclass of 40 million.

    No, but they did (and do) have an underclass of criminal Chechens and alcoholic Slavs, and they were (and are) a problem. But all societies have underclasses. They do not become an existential problem unless they are artificially empowered, as our underclass is.

    None of the former matter if the latter has a say or is expected to pull their weight, economically, socially, or civically.

    They don’t have to “pull their weight” (they don’t actually have much constructive weight to pull in the first place, a major cause of the original problem is the unmeetable expectation that it is possible for them to “pull their weight”), they just have to stop being a deadweight on everyone else who is pulling their weight. In practice this means reducing/ending society-destroying welfare systems. The current FedGov won’t do this because those welfare-takers are their footsoldiers, paid in fiat money.

    Despite whatever they say, they will always seek out the productivity of the Euro descended people.

    True, but that is no reason for the Euro-descended people to cooperate in their looting and dispossession. Restore Freedom of Association and 80% of this problem goes away. Ten percent of the problem is virtue signalers “paying the toll”, but that is ultimately self-correcting. The last 10% is hard to fix without extreme measures, but let us not make the perfect the enemy of the good. A 90% solution is vastly superior to a 100% problem.

    Right out of the gate, they will go on the dole in the leftist nations

    That’s very unfortunate for the leftist nations. Maybe don’t be a leftist nation?

    The problem right now is the whole nation is the leftist nation, because the FedGov wants it that way and state sovereignty is mostly a fiction. Restore local sovereignty, disempowering the FedGov, and sovereign competition solves most of this automatically. No local authority wants a destructive underclass. The few actually asking for it now are only doing so because they’re getting bribed in Federal fiat dollars to take them.

    and attempt to steal from the other nations.

    There used to be these things called borders. We need them again.

    if the people who make up these separate nations don’t change, then you’re just going to end up with smaller versions of the original and failing United States. And if the solution is mass relocation into the new separate nation best suited for them, who not just send them packing back to their country of origin in the first place, and not concede any part of the existing US to them at all?

    The reason the United States is failing is that it is empowering the destructive people and kneecapping the productive people. Switch that around and the destructive people will send themselves packing. Switch that around in a part of the [perhaps former] United States and the other parts will quickly figure out that they need to switch it around too.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @Almost Missouri

    "They do not become an existential problem unless they are artificially empowered, as our underclass is. "

    For a white underclass, absolutely. Negroes? Not sure about that.

    "They don’t have to “pull their weight, they just have to stop being a deadweight on everyone else who is pulling their weight. "

    A distinction without a difference. They stop being a dead weight only if they are returned to Africa.

    "Restore Freedom of Association and 80% of this problem goes away. "

    If this is possible, then no need for separate nations anymore, right?

    "That’s very unfortunate for the leftist nations. Maybe don’t be a leftist nation? "

    Well the premise is separate nations implementing their preferred political system, isn't it? Citing a leftist nation seems appropriate.

    " Switch that around and the destructive people will send themselves packing. Switch that around in a part of the [perhaps former] United States and the other parts will quickly figure out that they need to switch it around too."

    After it's said and done if the new nations are still more concerned about being rude then dead, it's all a non starter.

    Just to be clear, I respect your comments here and by Sailer's. I agree with much of what you say about a great many things so I don't want my questions to come across as needling or argumentative. it's just that I have yet to see a realistic solution provided to the NQ in the separate nations proposal. Much of what I read is that negroes will simply "fall in line" or adapt to the new order.

    Is there any evidence throughout history of that occurring? (Without intensive local authority - meaning lawful discrimination applied to their populace) Because I haven't seen it.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  98. @indocon
    @CCZ

    If pushed to choose car Hispanics will become white in droves overnight, and rump Americans whites should welcome them. That takes care of the south west , I see liberal whites being pushed to 2 enclaves in north east and north west, this will lead the AAs, mostly likely you are going to have to give them Georgia to create new Wakanda, that's it, clean split of county happens.

    Replies: @Luzzatto

    Hispanics will not become White in droves. The vast majority of Latinos in The United States say White Gringos still see them as People Of Color and not as fellow White people. Even when they check the White box in The U.S census they are still not seen as White in White Gringo spaces!
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna365996

  99. @mark green
    @Almost Missouri


    The US’s worst-ever war was the Civil War, which was waged to prevent the South’s legitimate secession.
     
    You are correct. And Lincoln's denial of the Southern states' desire to peacefully secede will not be forgotten by the modern anti-secessionists who will fight tooth-and-nail to preserve our dysfunctional 'union'.

    What's worse, anti-secessionists are (I suspect) greater in number and far far greater in wealth/influence than those of us who want to see the militarized behemoth otherwise known as the USA cut down to size.

    You can also bet that the comfortable, the rich, the connected, as well as the entire political establishment will generally resist any attempt to break up the USA.

    Despite our nation's growing flaws, the mega-rich as well as our ruling establishment still pretty much likes things the way they are. Plus, with secession, there would be huge challenges involving our monetary system--not to mention our military establishment.

    Some questions:

    Would the dollar be the new trans-regional currency?

    If so, which region would be in charge of printing dollars?

    And what about the military? Would all the new nations which emerge from the carcass of the former USA have their own separate armies?--and nuclear weapons, too?

    These are not unimportant issues.

    Breaking up the USA would not likely be permitted by the SCOTUS unless many many conditions were met. The legal hurdles would be exhausting. Existing institutions such as the courts as well as the military would almost certainly resist lawful secession.

    With these facts in mind, the most practical way to achieve greater autonomy and personal independence would be to shrink the federal government by 50% and reduce federal taxes by a similar figure.

    This strategy would allow the USA would endure but allow the next step: namely the re-empowerment of the various 'united' states.

    Each state would become semi-autonomous. There should also be a mechanism within each state to override any egregious, liberty-denying decision imposed by the SCOTUS over the past century, not to mention most of the freedom-killing 'civil rights' legislation passed since WWII.

    Since abolishing the USA would be next to impossible, reinvigorating 'States Rights' is the most efficient and practical way to reclaim lost liberty.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Wency, @Audacious Epigone

    What’s worse, anti-secessionists are (I suspect) greater in number

    Looking at AE’s chart and other indicators, I gather that secessionists are about 30%, anti-secessionists are about 30%, and the waffle-y/low info/undecided middle is about 40%.

    and far far greater in wealth/influence than those of us who want to see the militarized behemoth otherwise known as the USA cut down to size.

    Agreed, but 1) that wealth/influence is largely tied to and a product of fiat dollars, and 2) despite that wealth/influence, our numbers are growing while theirs are shrinking. So maybe wealth/influence isn’t everything.

    Would the dollar be the new trans-regional currency?

    Probably, unless the Federal Reserve’s incontinence has inflated it away by then. But I would want to decouple from the Federal Reserve thievery with all deliberate speed.

    If so, which region would be in charge of printing dollars?

    Whichever region has the soundest currency. Note that:

    1) There’s nothing wrong with a gold standard (which happens to be in the Constitution).

    2) There’s nothing wrong with having multiple currencies. The US did during it’s early decades (US, Spanish, Mexican, and local) and real economic growth was higher then than now.

    3) The not very hidden agenda of maximum-granularity dissolution and reformation is that the red regions have pretty easy and obvious common interest and contiguity, so in reality total secession and dissolution would likely lead rapidly to a large red nation reconstitution along originalist Constitutional lines. The only “regions” would be diversity-choked blue islands floundering on the fringes.

    Would all the new nations which emerge from the carcass of the former USA have their own separate armies?

    They already do. They’re called “state militias”, or nowadays, “National Guards”. Those happen to be in the Constitution. A standing Federal Army is not. For good reason.

    –and nuclear weapons, too?

    North Central Plains states may emerge as the world’s foremost nuclear power. And that’s a good thing. Certainly better than having the idiots and psychos in DC with their fingers on the button.

    Breaking up the USA would not likely be permitted by the SCOTUS

    Haha. Who’s asking them? Only deliberate obstructionists. “permitted” … haha, as if they get a say in this.

    Existing institutions such as the courts as well as the military would almost certainly resist lawful secession.

    Of course Federal courts think you must submit to Federal authority. Only a fool would ask them to be “permitted” to secede, haha, sorry, the notion is just so funny. Like if George Washington had asked a Royal Court in Westminster, “May we please stop being your colony?” Haha. The thing about Independence is, you don’t need permission. By definition.

    The military (i.e., the unconstitutional Federal standing army) is another matter. The Pentagon would almost certainly resent having the country that pays for their nonsense pull out from under them, however justly. On the other hand, what’re they gonna do about it? Most of their actual trigger-pullers lean strongly red, despite wokeshevik efforts to change that. And even the non-trigger-pulling soldiers have to live somewhere. There’s only so much barrack space in DC, so most of them (who aren’t already deployed overseas) live in states, mostly red states, which also happen to be where they mostly come from. Even if the military adheres to their wokeshevik flag officer/tyrants, the modern US military on an unlimited budget could not pacify a few million Afghani goat herders in 20 years of trying. What are their chances on hyperinflating fiat currency against 100 million of their extended family before their food, water and fuel supplies run out?

    Since abolishing the USA would be next to impossible, reinvigorating ‘States Rights’ is the most efficient and practical way to reclaim lost liberty.

    The power to “reinvigorate” states rights is basically the same thing as the power to abolish and reconstitute the United States. And the power standing against both is the same too: the illegitimate power of the banking cartel. When the banking cartel’s prime weapon—fiat currency—weakens sufficiently, revolutionary conditions will automatically pertain anyway, so the only question becomes, “what are we gonna do about it?”, in an environment where fiat currency access no longer matters and the willingness and ability to secure territory suddenly matters a great deal.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    Looking at AE’s chart and other indicators, I gather that secessionists are about 30%, anti-secessionists are about 30%, and the waffle-y/low info/undecided middle is about 40%.
     
    When it comes to the crunch most of the undecided are likely to come down on the anti-secessionist side. When it comes to the crunch most of the secessionists will end up coming down on the anti-secessionist side as well, once they realise that secession will involve high costs and extreme risks.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  100. @Luzzatto
    @Almost Missouri

    Hispanics are NOT aspirationallly White. You come off as extremely low IQ.Hispanics are down with La Raza and they do NOT mean White Nationalism when they say La Raza they mean Brown Pride!
    https://youtu.be/HkEOAcuquRo

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    Thanks for the video. I have watched it on your advice.

    Hispanics are NOT aspirationallly White.

    The athlete in the video seemed pretty reasonable, but you are right: he is not aspirationally white.

    Many other Hispanics however are indeed aspirationally white—not least because many are whiter than the athlete in the video. The question is in play.

    Non-Hispanic whites in the United States have foolishly allowed themselves to be maneuvered into a position in which they need Hispanic help, but it is what it is. Ally with Hispanics, or lose. Hispanics, especially Mexicans, have the largest, most persuadable bloc of votes other than our own bloc.

    That’s my estimate of the situation, at any rate. But no, trying to win over the specific athlete in the video is probably a waste of time. Better not to alienate him, and then instead to win over his children 20 years from now.

    • Replies: @Luzzatto
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Even among Hispanics who check the White box in The U.S census, the vast majority of those Hispanics say that phenotype wise they are still perceived as People Of Color and are not seen as fellow Whites by the White Gringos!
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna365996

    , @Twinkie
    @V. K. Ovelund


    But no, trying to win over the specific athlete in the video is probably a waste of time. Better not to alienate him, and then instead to win over his children 20 years from now.
     
    Caine Velasquez was a great heavyweight fighter in his prime, but his tattoo irked me a great deal. But that’s not all that surprising since his parents were illegal aliens from Mexico.

    I suspect his daughter won’t have that chip on her shoulder. At least I hope not.
  101. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Luzzatto

    Thanks for the video. I have watched it on your advice.


    Hispanics are NOT aspirationallly White.
     
    The athlete in the video seemed pretty reasonable, but you are right: he is not aspirationally white.

    Many other Hispanics however are indeed aspirationally white—not least because many are whiter than the athlete in the video. The question is in play.

    Non-Hispanic whites in the United States have foolishly allowed themselves to be maneuvered into a position in which they need Hispanic help, but it is what it is. Ally with Hispanics, or lose. Hispanics, especially Mexicans, have the largest, most persuadable bloc of votes other than our own bloc.

    That's my estimate of the situation, at any rate. But no, trying to win over the specific athlete in the video is probably a waste of time. Better not to alienate him, and then instead to win over his children 20 years from now.

    Replies: @Luzzatto, @Twinkie

    Even among Hispanics who check the White box in The U.S census, the vast majority of those Hispanics say that phenotype wise they are still perceived as People Of Color and are not seen as fellow Whites by the White Gringos!
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna365996

  102. Restore Freedom of Association and 80% of this problem goes away.

    Indeed.

    I make no prediction either way as to how likely such a restoration is. (Curmudgeons will tell you, “Forget it,” but their advice is more an irritable gesture than a political philosophy.)

    The only way to find out is to try.

    The beauty of the attempt is that we can play both sides at the same time,

       * demanding 1960s-style civil-rights protection for ourselves and, simultaneously,
       * demanding the abolition of 1960s-style civil-rights protection.

    This may seem counterintuitive, but it baits our opponents into highlighting their own hypocrisy.

  103. @Almost Missouri
    @Mike Tre


    The Soviet Union did not have a parasitic African underclass of 40 million.
     
    No, but they did (and do) have an underclass of criminal Chechens and alcoholic Slavs, and they were (and are) a problem. But all societies have underclasses. They do not become an existential problem unless they are artificially empowered, as our underclass is.

    None of the former matter if the latter has a say or is expected to pull their weight, economically, socially, or civically.
     
    They don't have to "pull their weight" (they don't actually have much constructive weight to pull in the first place, a major cause of the original problem is the unmeetable expectation that it is possible for them to "pull their weight"), they just have to stop being a deadweight on everyone else who is pulling their weight. In practice this means reducing/ending society-destroying welfare systems. The current FedGov won't do this because those welfare-takers are their footsoldiers, paid in fiat money.

    Despite whatever they say, they will always seek out the productivity of the Euro descended people.
     
    True, but that is no reason for the Euro-descended people to cooperate in their looting and dispossession. Restore Freedom of Association and 80% of this problem goes away. Ten percent of the problem is virtue signalers "paying the toll", but that is ultimately self-correcting. The last 10% is hard to fix without extreme measures, but let us not make the perfect the enemy of the good. A 90% solution is vastly superior to a 100% problem.

    Right out of the gate, they will go on the dole in the leftist nations
     
    That's very unfortunate for the leftist nations. Maybe don't be a leftist nation?

    The problem right now is the whole nation is the leftist nation, because the FedGov wants it that way and state sovereignty is mostly a fiction. Restore local sovereignty, disempowering the FedGov, and sovereign competition solves most of this automatically. No local authority wants a destructive underclass. The few actually asking for it now are only doing so because they're getting bribed in Federal fiat dollars to take them.

    and attempt to steal from the other nations.
     
    There used to be these things called borders. We need them again.

    if the people who make up these separate nations don’t change, then you’re just going to end up with smaller versions of the original and failing United States. And if the solution is mass relocation into the new separate nation best suited for them, who not just send them packing back to their country of origin in the first place, and not concede any part of the existing US to them at all?
     
    The reason the United States is failing is that it is empowering the destructive people and kneecapping the productive people. Switch that around and the destructive people will send themselves packing. Switch that around in a part of the [perhaps former] United States and the other parts will quickly figure out that they need to switch it around too.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    “They do not become an existential problem unless they are artificially empowered, as our underclass is. ”

    For a white underclass, absolutely. Negroes? Not sure about that.

    “They don’t have to “pull their weight, they just have to stop being a deadweight on everyone else who is pulling their weight. ”

    A distinction without a difference. They stop being a dead weight only if they are returned to Africa.

    “Restore Freedom of Association and 80% of this problem goes away. ”

    If this is possible, then no need for separate nations anymore, right?

    “That’s very unfortunate for the leftist nations. Maybe don’t be a leftist nation? ”

    Well the premise is separate nations implementing their preferred political system, isn’t it? Citing a leftist nation seems appropriate.

    ” Switch that around and the destructive people will send themselves packing. Switch that around in a part of the [perhaps former] United States and the other parts will quickly figure out that they need to switch it around too.”

    After it’s said and done if the new nations are still more concerned about being rude then dead, it’s all a non starter.

    Just to be clear, I respect your comments here and by Sailer’s. I agree with much of what you say about a great many things so I don’t want my questions to come across as needling or argumentative. it’s just that I have yet to see a realistic solution provided to the NQ in the separate nations proposal. Much of what I read is that negroes will simply “fall in line” or adapt to the new order.

    Is there any evidence throughout history of that occurring? (Without intensive local authority – meaning lawful discrimination applied to their populace) Because I haven’t seen it.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Mike Tre


    Is there any evidence throughout history of that occurring?
     
    Prior to the [un-]Civil Rights Act, the black population was not a serious problem. Prior to the welfare state, the black population was gradually assimilating. Yes, in a few States there were Jim Crow laws, but 1) these weren't really as onerous as lefthistorians pretend they were, and 2) most States did not have such laws yet still did not have a serious Negro problem.

    Replies: @Curle, @Mike Tre

  104. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Luzzatto

    Thanks for the video. I have watched it on your advice.


    Hispanics are NOT aspirationallly White.
     
    The athlete in the video seemed pretty reasonable, but you are right: he is not aspirationally white.

    Many other Hispanics however are indeed aspirationally white—not least because many are whiter than the athlete in the video. The question is in play.

    Non-Hispanic whites in the United States have foolishly allowed themselves to be maneuvered into a position in which they need Hispanic help, but it is what it is. Ally with Hispanics, or lose. Hispanics, especially Mexicans, have the largest, most persuadable bloc of votes other than our own bloc.

    That's my estimate of the situation, at any rate. But no, trying to win over the specific athlete in the video is probably a waste of time. Better not to alienate him, and then instead to win over his children 20 years from now.

    Replies: @Luzzatto, @Twinkie

    But no, trying to win over the specific athlete in the video is probably a waste of time. Better not to alienate him, and then instead to win over his children 20 years from now.

    Caine Velasquez was a great heavyweight fighter in his prime, but his tattoo irked me a great deal. But that’s not all that surprising since his parents were illegal aliens from Mexico.

    I suspect his daughter won’t have that chip on her shoulder. At least I hope not.

  105. @RoatanBill
    @A123

    If people are greedy enough to defraud the CCP, then they have more guts than I do. China routinely executes people for activity that would land a US equivalent in one of the day spa "prisons".

    My PM stock is insured, audited, and I have pictures and serial numbers of every item. I'm not stupid. I always purchase segregated that is registered in my name, not some pool.

    Physical metal almost never has to get shipped anywhere. I deposit my PM's in a facility. They give me a debit card denominated in grams and fractions of grams, for example, and I spend on a car by paying 20 ounces of gold and 5 ounces of silver. The only thing that gets changed is an accounting entry that the dealer now own more metal and I own less. Notice there's no phony Dollar, Euro, Yen, etc involved, no currency arbitrage with middlemen taking a cut. It's all done in weight of metal. If there's a balance of payments issue, that's when physical metal gets moved and that would usually be by the ton.

    As far as fiat PM receipts is concerned, I know how much I deposited and my statement tells me how much I spent and what's left. It's no different than current credit / debit card charges. Can someone on the inside pilfer metal or cook the books, that's always possible, but safeguards have been developed over decades and the insurance companies would monitor their exposure.

    Barter was used till Nixon closed the gold window. The barter item was gold, but that's for convenience as you say. There's nothing preventing Germany, for example, accepting shipments of LNG to run their industries for a balance of payment correction. Admittedly the metals are easier and cheaper to handle, but tankers have to move to get paid, so if they move under a gov't contract worth billions, any handling is just part of the barter agreement.

    I'm not suggesting barter for groceries or to fill a gas tank. I am suggesting that although PM's are the preferred medium of exchange, it could also be something else that the parties can agree on at a very high level between major corporations or governments involving large debts.

    Countries kept their gold in the US and other places as a trust issue. This facilitated rapid movement of metals when necessary and usually in very large amounts.

    Replies: @A123

    If people are greedy enough to defraud the CCP, then they have more guts than I do. China routinely executes people for activity that would land a US equivalent in one of the day spa “prisons”.

    I am not saying that people are defrauding the CCP Elites. Just the opposite. The CCP Elites are the source of the fraud.

    The CCP Elite routinely executes non-elite commoners. Also, former Elites that haven fallen out of favour.

    Physical metal almost never has to get shipped anywhere. I deposit my PM’s in a facility. They give me a debit card denominated in grams and fractions of grams, for example, and I spend on a car by paying 20 ounces of gold and 5 ounces of silver. The only thing that gets changed is an accounting entry that the dealer now own more metal and I own less.
    ….
    Can someone on the inside pilfer metal or cook the books, that’s always possible, but safeguards have been developed over decades and the insurance companies would monitor their exposure.

    Who would own these repositories? The wealthy Elites that own banks? Or, possibly the Elite controlled government?

    This seems prone to systemic fraud starting from the top if the power structure. It is based on digital records that “should” tally to the amount on deposit. There is a huge amount of wealth available for extraction by the Elites if they decide that the rules do not apply to themselves. Elite audit firms & Elite insurance companies would gladly participate in the extraction as long as they get their share of the looting.
    ______

    The problem is not currency type (hard dollar vs. fiat dollar). The issue is Elite domination of the currency system.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @A123

    I store my PM's with private organizations. They in turn hire insurance and auditing firms to engender trust in their patrons. I don't see why this arrangement can't be made larger to encompass the entire population. It is a trust relationship, but I see no way of avoiding that.

    Texas has or is in the process of constructing a PM repository under state control.

    The crooked gov'ts are always and everywhere the real issue. They pass "laws" that many people feel must be obeyed by all, except those that have a license or special provision that excludes them. We also have Justice Department operatives that decide to not prosecute their buddies, or use executive pardons to let the guilty go.

    The US could pass a "law" that says I must relinquish my PM's to them for $35/oz or some other bogus figure. At that point I become a law breaker.

    Your description assumes everyone is part of some grand criminal conspiracy. I'm not so inclined. I'd trust, I have to trust, someone. We all do, as there's no other realistic choice. All I know is that the fiat currencies are all headed for inflation to hyperinflation in many cases and is why I hold very little gov't currency of any flavor.

    Replies: @A123

  106. @Mark G.
    @Almost Missouri


    They are a lot closer to being a bunch of Denmarks now than they were under the Soviet Union.
     
    This is especially true of Estonia, after they adopted market oriented reforms as described at the Intellectual Takeout website in 2018:

    "These reforms paved way for the incredible rise in living standards that Estonia has experienced since independence. Today, Estonia is considered a high-income country by the World Bank, and it is member of the EU and the Eurozone. The purchasing power of Estonians has increased 400 percent over the last two decades despite the severe impact the 2008 financial crisis had on the Baltic economies. In addition, life expectancy has moved from 66 years in 1994 to 77 years in 2016.

    Estonia is ranked among the top countries in terms of economic freedom. Government finances are healthy as shown by the fact that public debt is only 9.5% of GDP. In terms of the labor market, Estonia’s unemployment rate is 5.3%, well below the EU average. Finally, its efficient and attractive corporate tax system (undistributed profits aren’t taxed) has placed Estonia as a worldwide center for high-tech companies, boosting foreign investments and economic growth."

    Replies: @Rahan

    Estonia is what Slovenia is vis-a-vis the former Yugoslav union. The one former member that really made it.
    Possibly Latvia and Lithuania combined are some depressive equivalent of Croatia.

  107. anonymous[969] • Disclaimer says:

    “Would all the new nations which emerge from the carcass of the former USA have their own separate armies? And nuclear weapons, too?”

    Think it through. You’re a successor state to the world’s biggest pain in the ass. You want recognition? You want to maybe someday get a seat on the HRC, the ICJ? Sit at the grownups’ table? Get some of that development aid you poor broke bastards need so bad?

    OK, pissant. Here’s how it works. We can talk about that when you have accepted the acquis. Ratified it executed it, demonstrated good-faith interpretation.

    Oh, you want to be on the UNSC, like you used to? Hahahahahah, hahahahah, you fricking crack me up. Get some of those nice waterfall privileges you used to have? Forget it. You’re not the sole US successor state.

    OK, statelet. Having ratified the requisite instruments and interpreted them to ICJ standards, what do you need a standing army for? If you ever use it, you are going to put it at the disposal of the UNSC. Hey, you read Chapter 7. Do you want to be a sovereign state or not? And while you’re at it, go back and read the part about disarmament.

    Oh, and here, rump state, sign here, right there, right. Don’t worry about it, It’s the Treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons, all the shitty little underdeveloped dumps like yours have to sign it.

    We see you got some of those useless fighter jets. Why are you dicking around with them? Look here in the ICESCR you committed to. You have to divert all available resources to fulfillment of your peoples’ human rights. No fighter jets till everybody’s got their livelihood, their food, their health, their leisure, their education.

  108. @A123
    @RoatanBill


    If people are greedy enough to defraud the CCP, then they have more guts than I do. China routinely executes people for activity that would land a US equivalent in one of the day spa “prisons”.
     
    I am not saying that people are defrauding the CCP Elites. Just the opposite. The CCP Elites are the source of the fraud.

    The CCP Elite routinely executes non-elite commoners. Also, former Elites that haven fallen out of favour.

    Physical metal almost never has to get shipped anywhere. I deposit my PM’s in a facility. They give me a debit card denominated in grams and fractions of grams, for example, and I spend on a car by paying 20 ounces of gold and 5 ounces of silver. The only thing that gets changed is an accounting entry that the dealer now own more metal and I own less.
    ....
    Can someone on the inside pilfer metal or cook the books, that’s always possible, but safeguards have been developed over decades and the insurance companies would monitor their exposure.
     
    Who would own these repositories? The wealthy Elites that own banks? Or, possibly the Elite controlled government?

    This seems prone to systemic fraud starting from the top if the power structure. It is based on digital records that "should" tally to the amount on deposit. There is a huge amount of wealth available for extraction by the Elites if they decide that the rules do not apply to themselves. Elite audit firms & Elite insurance companies would gladly participate in the extraction as long as they get their share of the looting.
    ______

    The problem is not currency type (hard dollar vs. fiat dollar). The issue is Elite domination of the currency system.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    I store my PM’s with private organizations. They in turn hire insurance and auditing firms to engender trust in their patrons. I don’t see why this arrangement can’t be made larger to encompass the entire population. It is a trust relationship, but I see no way of avoiding that.

    Texas has or is in the process of constructing a PM repository under state control.

    The crooked gov’ts are always and everywhere the real issue. They pass “laws” that many people feel must be obeyed by all, except those that have a license or special provision that excludes them. We also have Justice Department operatives that decide to not prosecute their buddies, or use executive pardons to let the guilty go.

    The US could pass a “law” that says I must relinquish my PM’s to them for $35/oz or some other bogus figure. At that point I become a law breaker.

    Your description assumes everyone is part of some grand criminal conspiracy. I’m not so inclined. I’d trust, I have to trust, someone. We all do, as there’s no other realistic choice. All I know is that the fiat currencies are all headed for inflation to hyperinflation in many cases and is why I hold very little gov’t currency of any flavor.

    • Agree: Realist
    • Replies: @A123
    @RoatanBill

    Again. You are conflating two separate issues.

    How you store your personal stock pile is unrelated to the existence of a standardized national currency.

    Scaling up to the level of a national currency requires a limited number of repositories holding a huge portion of the physical metal. And, those repositories would have to closely cooperate. Effectively, they would become Federal Reserve (v2.0).

    Why do you refuse to believe that very small number of Elite individuals can abuse the system, especially if they work together?

    And, that "currency scale" repositories would not attract these corrupt Elites?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @RoatanBill

  109. @Sick 'n Tired
    @CCZ

    In the case of each region becoming it's own entity, reliant on itself and trading with the others, the wheat would be separated from the chaff rather quickly. I still stand by my original statement if the US broke up into separate countries like in the original graph. If it was broken up by racial boundries, like on the maps you presented, the South would become like S. Africa, the only question is whether it would be pre or post Mandela S. Africa?

    Replies: @Wency

    How many blacks do you think there are in the South? It peaks at roughly 30% of the population in the Deep South, that is SC/MS/GA/AL. In those places, the major cities have black majorities and there are substantial black rural populations as well, but suburbs are still very white and rural populations are still white majority as well.

    The Mid-South is more like the Midwest, closer to the 15% range, with rural areas entirely white, suburbs very white, and even many mid-sized cities themselves having outright white majorities.

    • Replies: @Stealth
    @Wency

    Mississippi is actually thirty nine percent black.

    Replies: @Wency

  110. @RoatanBill
    @A123

    I store my PM's with private organizations. They in turn hire insurance and auditing firms to engender trust in their patrons. I don't see why this arrangement can't be made larger to encompass the entire population. It is a trust relationship, but I see no way of avoiding that.

    Texas has or is in the process of constructing a PM repository under state control.

    The crooked gov'ts are always and everywhere the real issue. They pass "laws" that many people feel must be obeyed by all, except those that have a license or special provision that excludes them. We also have Justice Department operatives that decide to not prosecute their buddies, or use executive pardons to let the guilty go.

    The US could pass a "law" that says I must relinquish my PM's to them for $35/oz or some other bogus figure. At that point I become a law breaker.

    Your description assumes everyone is part of some grand criminal conspiracy. I'm not so inclined. I'd trust, I have to trust, someone. We all do, as there's no other realistic choice. All I know is that the fiat currencies are all headed for inflation to hyperinflation in many cases and is why I hold very little gov't currency of any flavor.

    Replies: @A123

    Again. You are conflating two separate issues.

    How you store your personal stock pile is unrelated to the existence of a standardized national currency.

    Scaling up to the level of a national currency requires a limited number of repositories holding a huge portion of the physical metal. And, those repositories would have to closely cooperate. Effectively, they would become Federal Reserve (v2.0).

    Why do you refuse to believe that very small number of Elite individuals can abuse the system, especially if they work together?

    And, that “currency scale” repositories would not attract these corrupt Elites?

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @A123

    My writings are based upon NO national currency. There should be no national currencies, just world money in the form of gold and silver denominated by weight of metal not some artificial dollar, yen, etc.

    No gov't should have anything to do with what the people use as money. Their currency regimes are designed to give the elite their stranglehold on the peasants. I want to move away from that broken model to where private institutions hold the peoples money and the people use their money as they see fit allowing market forces to determine the actual value of metal versus goods and services.

    It is the existence of the artificial national currencies that offer all the incentives to graft and corruption.

    Replies: @A123

  111. @Wency
    @Sick 'n Tired

    How many blacks do you think there are in the South? It peaks at roughly 30% of the population in the Deep South, that is SC/MS/GA/AL. In those places, the major cities have black majorities and there are substantial black rural populations as well, but suburbs are still very white and rural populations are still white majority as well.

    The Mid-South is more like the Midwest, closer to the 15% range, with rural areas entirely white, suburbs very white, and even many mid-sized cities themselves having outright white majorities.

    Replies: @Stealth

    Mississippi is actually thirty nine percent black.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @Stealth

    Thanks, the number I see looking it up is 37.7%, but in any case I was trying to make a broader point -- call it roughly 1/3 of the population in the Deep South, give or take several points, with MS on the high end and AL on the low end.

  112. @A123
    @RoatanBill

    Again. You are conflating two separate issues.

    How you store your personal stock pile is unrelated to the existence of a standardized national currency.

    Scaling up to the level of a national currency requires a limited number of repositories holding a huge portion of the physical metal. And, those repositories would have to closely cooperate. Effectively, they would become Federal Reserve (v2.0).

    Why do you refuse to believe that very small number of Elite individuals can abuse the system, especially if they work together?

    And, that "currency scale" repositories would not attract these corrupt Elites?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    My writings are based upon NO national currency. There should be no national currencies, just world money in the form of gold and silver denominated by weight of metal not some artificial dollar, yen, etc.

    No gov’t should have anything to do with what the people use as money. Their currency regimes are designed to give the elite their stranglehold on the peasants. I want to move away from that broken model to where private institutions hold the peoples money and the people use their money as they see fit allowing market forces to determine the actual value of metal versus goods and services.

    It is the existence of the artificial national currencies that offer all the incentives to graft and corruption.

    • Replies: @A123
    @RoatanBill


    My writings are based upon NO national currency. There should be no national currencies, just world money in the form of gold and silver denominated by weight of metal not some artificial dollar, yen, etc.
     
    Having UN/NWO "world money" is even more problematic than national currencies. UN Elite corruption is legendary. Turtle Bay may be the most corrupt place on planet Earth.

    Your proposal runs aground much like purist Libertarianism. It sounds good as a concept. However, trying to build an actual, real world system based falls well short of the idealized, purist concept.

    If you cannot "trust" with fiat denominated currency, you cannot trust "trust" with gold denominated currency.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @RoatanBill

  113. @mark green
    @Almost Missouri


    The US’s worst-ever war was the Civil War, which was waged to prevent the South’s legitimate secession.
     
    You are correct. And Lincoln's denial of the Southern states' desire to peacefully secede will not be forgotten by the modern anti-secessionists who will fight tooth-and-nail to preserve our dysfunctional 'union'.

    What's worse, anti-secessionists are (I suspect) greater in number and far far greater in wealth/influence than those of us who want to see the militarized behemoth otherwise known as the USA cut down to size.

    You can also bet that the comfortable, the rich, the connected, as well as the entire political establishment will generally resist any attempt to break up the USA.

    Despite our nation's growing flaws, the mega-rich as well as our ruling establishment still pretty much likes things the way they are. Plus, with secession, there would be huge challenges involving our monetary system--not to mention our military establishment.

    Some questions:

    Would the dollar be the new trans-regional currency?

    If so, which region would be in charge of printing dollars?

    And what about the military? Would all the new nations which emerge from the carcass of the former USA have their own separate armies?--and nuclear weapons, too?

    These are not unimportant issues.

    Breaking up the USA would not likely be permitted by the SCOTUS unless many many conditions were met. The legal hurdles would be exhausting. Existing institutions such as the courts as well as the military would almost certainly resist lawful secession.

    With these facts in mind, the most practical way to achieve greater autonomy and personal independence would be to shrink the federal government by 50% and reduce federal taxes by a similar figure.

    This strategy would allow the USA would endure but allow the next step: namely the re-empowerment of the various 'united' states.

    Each state would become semi-autonomous. There should also be a mechanism within each state to override any egregious, liberty-denying decision imposed by the SCOTUS over the past century, not to mention most of the freedom-killing 'civil rights' legislation passed since WWII.

    Since abolishing the USA would be next to impossible, reinvigorating 'States Rights' is the most efficient and practical way to reclaim lost liberty.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Wency, @Audacious Epigone

    I’d agree with most of this, but would add that there’s one other important variable weighing against secession: willingness to die.

    I point to the example of Catalonia, which no one else seems to ever bring up in these discussions. Catalonian politicians, with what seems to have been around 60% support from the population, declared independence. Then the central government just sent in law enforcement to arrest them, without shots fired. And now Catalonians seem to be largely over it.

    That 60% support might not seem so far from the perhaps 70-80% support the Confederate states had for secession, but actually it was several light years short of it. The difference is that in the Confederacy, people were prepared to fight, die, and sacrifice for the cause. People saying they support secession in these polls in Spain, the US, or any other modern decadent state are simply looking to signal disapproval of the central government, in a “complain about them on Twitter before going back to whatever I was watching on Netflix” sort of way. They’re not signaling willingness to die, or to otherwise sacrifice, or to even give tacit support and cover to those willing to die.

    And the forces that want to keep this country together can’t possibly be blocked by anything short of a locally-popular, well-organized movement of men willing to die. And I can’t say such a movement will never arise in this country, only that a culture capable of producing it would be unrecognizable next to the culture of the present-day US.

    • Agree: mark green, dfordoom
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Wency


    The difference is that in the Confederacy, people were prepared to fight, die, and sacrifice for the cause. People saying they support secession in these polls in Spain, the US, or any other modern decadent state are simply looking to signal disapproval of the central government, in a “complain about them on Twitter before going back to whatever I was watching on Netflix” sort of way.
     
    Yes, voting and polling distinguish poorly between the seriously motivated and the weakly motivated. Catalonia is sort of the PNW SWPL region of Spain. Them "supporting" independence is sort of like PNW SWPL "supporting" CHAZ/CHOP, or yoga women "supporting" Tibetan independence or whatever: it's just poseur politics. A few people may get killed at the fringes in a tragi-comic way, but it's just sound and fury signifying nothing. By contrast, if Confederates or Castilians support something, chances are they're willing to take consequent action over it.

    There's no obvious data-driven way to distinguish between the poseurs and the purposive, since not everything is answerable with abstract information. You might say that a more "hands-on" HBD is needed.

    Replies: @Wency

  114. @RoatanBill
    @A123

    My writings are based upon NO national currency. There should be no national currencies, just world money in the form of gold and silver denominated by weight of metal not some artificial dollar, yen, etc.

    No gov't should have anything to do with what the people use as money. Their currency regimes are designed to give the elite their stranglehold on the peasants. I want to move away from that broken model to where private institutions hold the peoples money and the people use their money as they see fit allowing market forces to determine the actual value of metal versus goods and services.

    It is the existence of the artificial national currencies that offer all the incentives to graft and corruption.

    Replies: @A123

    My writings are based upon NO national currency. There should be no national currencies, just world money in the form of gold and silver denominated by weight of metal not some artificial dollar, yen, etc.

    Having UN/NWO “world money” is even more problematic than national currencies. UN Elite corruption is legendary. Turtle Bay may be the most corrupt place on planet Earth.

    Your proposal runs aground much like purist Libertarianism. It sounds good as a concept. However, trying to build an actual, real world system based falls well short of the idealized, purist concept.

    If you cannot “trust” with fiat denominated currency, you cannot trust “trust” with gold denominated currency.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @A123

    My definition of world money, as I've already stated, is gold and silver to be used denominated in the weight of metal. I certainly don't want any of the governmental agencies involved in true money. They hosed up national currencies so they can't be trusted with real money.

    My proposal is what the world ran on for thousands of years till the bankers discovered paper and issued more of it than they had backing for it. I'm a proponent of the least corruptible system of specie being used by the people.

    Because of modern developments, we don't have to carry around metal money but could use plastic or an app to access OUR money, not the gov'ts currency. The accounting is as simple as it could be offering few opportunities for anyone to abuse the system. Any such abuse would quickly surface and the miscreant could be hung.

    Replies: @anon

  115. @A123
    @RoatanBill


    My writings are based upon NO national currency. There should be no national currencies, just world money in the form of gold and silver denominated by weight of metal not some artificial dollar, yen, etc.
     
    Having UN/NWO "world money" is even more problematic than national currencies. UN Elite corruption is legendary. Turtle Bay may be the most corrupt place on planet Earth.

    Your proposal runs aground much like purist Libertarianism. It sounds good as a concept. However, trying to build an actual, real world system based falls well short of the idealized, purist concept.

    If you cannot "trust" with fiat denominated currency, you cannot trust "trust" with gold denominated currency.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    My definition of world money, as I’ve already stated, is gold and silver to be used denominated in the weight of metal. I certainly don’t want any of the governmental agencies involved in true money. They hosed up national currencies so they can’t be trusted with real money.

    My proposal is what the world ran on for thousands of years till the bankers discovered paper and issued more of it than they had backing for it. I’m a proponent of the least corruptible system of specie being used by the people.

    Because of modern developments, we don’t have to carry around metal money but could use plastic or an app to access OUR money, not the gov’ts currency. The accounting is as simple as it could be offering few opportunities for anyone to abuse the system. Any such abuse would quickly surface and the miscreant could be hung.

    • Replies: @anon
    @RoatanBill

    My definition of world money, as I’ve already stated, is gold and silver to be used denominated in the weight of metal

    What's your action item?

    Replies: @RoatanBill

  116. @RoatanBill
    @A123

    My definition of world money, as I've already stated, is gold and silver to be used denominated in the weight of metal. I certainly don't want any of the governmental agencies involved in true money. They hosed up national currencies so they can't be trusted with real money.

    My proposal is what the world ran on for thousands of years till the bankers discovered paper and issued more of it than they had backing for it. I'm a proponent of the least corruptible system of specie being used by the people.

    Because of modern developments, we don't have to carry around metal money but could use plastic or an app to access OUR money, not the gov'ts currency. The accounting is as simple as it could be offering few opportunities for anyone to abuse the system. Any such abuse would quickly surface and the miscreant could be hung.

    Replies: @anon

    My definition of world money, as I’ve already stated, is gold and silver to be used denominated in the weight of metal

    What’s your action item?

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @anon

    44 mag or 9 mm. Revolver or semi auto actions are fine.

    Does that answer your pithy query?

    Replies: @anon

  117. @Stealth
    @Wency

    Mississippi is actually thirty nine percent black.

    Replies: @Wency

    Thanks, the number I see looking it up is 37.7%, but in any case I was trying to make a broader point — call it roughly 1/3 of the population in the Deep South, give or take several points, with MS on the high end and AL on the low end.

  118. @Trinity
    Only one problem. Whites could move to Mars and Jews, Blacks, Browns, Yellows and every other nonwhite hue under the Sun would follow US there. You see, Jews and nonwhites love leeching off the sweat of racist, anti-Semitic, White Gentiles who oppress them. Weird isn't it? Must be a nonwhite and Jewish thing because I don't like to go where I am not wanted. Why do THESE PEOPLE follow Whites everywhere WE go?

    Split up America into sections and it would take only 6 months before all the Blue States looked like Port-au-Prince, Haiti. Word of advice to Texas, don't let them ruin YOUR state like THEY did Florida.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone, @Truth, @Sick of Orcs

    Wholly agree!

    Whites could give the nons the other 49 states in exchange for Texas and in less than a month, guess who would come a-knockin’?

    Why it’s Tyrone! With Shlomo hiding in the bushes feeding lines like Cyrano de Usury.

  119. @anon
    @RoatanBill

    My definition of world money, as I’ve already stated, is gold and silver to be used denominated in the weight of metal

    What's your action item?

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    44 mag or 9 mm. Revolver or semi auto actions are fine.

    Does that answer your pithy query?

    • Replies: @anon
    @RoatanBill

    Does that answer your pithy query?

    No.

  120. @RoatanBill
    @anon

    44 mag or 9 mm. Revolver or semi auto actions are fine.

    Does that answer your pithy query?

    Replies: @anon

    Does that answer your pithy query?

    No.

  121. The Federales won’t let their meal tickets go.
    They already are underwater in enough debt to sink them.

    They cannot exist without you suckers paying the bills.
    You have to eliminate the Federales to get back your freedom.

    The Confederates made a huge mistake.
    They should have burned down Washington when they had the chance.

    Do not repeat their mistakes.
    You’ll be called terrorists just for not supporting the Federales and their foreign masters.

    You have to eliminate the Federales in order to free yourselves.
    There is no other course.

    You can start by unplugging from them as much as possible.
    Barter. Trade amongst yourselves. Dump the petrodollar.

    Crush the monkey on your back by starving it out.
    Create your own microeconomy without the taxable petrodollar.

    When the riots start,the War begins.
    Form into groups. Your skin is your uniform.

    The FEDGOV is already bankrupt. You are the only ones keeping it going.
    You have to unplug from the system before it burns down or you will go down with it…

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Dr. Doom


    Your skin is your uniform.
     
    Pithy. Unfortunately probably true.

    Form into groups.
     
    I take it that you've never served in the military. It's not a criticism, but just an observation.

    Even groups as small as a squad require implicit trust that one's squadmates share an identical understanding of the chain of command. This shared understanding simply does not exist without military training. Without military training, even a squad composed of brave men will dissolve under fire.

    Moreover, tragically, men whose skins are their uniforms will not be able to fight tanks, artillery and warplanes—not unless the military restrains itself via soft rules of engagement as in the recent Middle East wars.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @Dr. Doom

    Eliminate the position of power the federales have, presumably. Please respect the rules about not advocating illegal activity.

  122. @Mike Tre
    @Almost Missouri

    "They do not become an existential problem unless they are artificially empowered, as our underclass is. "

    For a white underclass, absolutely. Negroes? Not sure about that.

    "They don’t have to “pull their weight, they just have to stop being a deadweight on everyone else who is pulling their weight. "

    A distinction without a difference. They stop being a dead weight only if they are returned to Africa.

    "Restore Freedom of Association and 80% of this problem goes away. "

    If this is possible, then no need for separate nations anymore, right?

    "That’s very unfortunate for the leftist nations. Maybe don’t be a leftist nation? "

    Well the premise is separate nations implementing their preferred political system, isn't it? Citing a leftist nation seems appropriate.

    " Switch that around and the destructive people will send themselves packing. Switch that around in a part of the [perhaps former] United States and the other parts will quickly figure out that they need to switch it around too."

    After it's said and done if the new nations are still more concerned about being rude then dead, it's all a non starter.

    Just to be clear, I respect your comments here and by Sailer's. I agree with much of what you say about a great many things so I don't want my questions to come across as needling or argumentative. it's just that I have yet to see a realistic solution provided to the NQ in the separate nations proposal. Much of what I read is that negroes will simply "fall in line" or adapt to the new order.

    Is there any evidence throughout history of that occurring? (Without intensive local authority - meaning lawful discrimination applied to their populace) Because I haven't seen it.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Is there any evidence throughout history of that occurring?

    Prior to the [un-]Civil Rights Act, the black population was not a serious problem. Prior to the welfare state, the black population was gradually assimilating. Yes, in a few States there were Jim Crow laws, but 1) these weren’t really as onerous as lefthistorians pretend they were, and 2) most States did not have such laws yet still did not have a serious Negro problem.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @Curle
    @Almost Missouri

    “ Yes, in a few States there were Jim Crow laws”

    I presume you are picking an reference point very close to the 1960s. The Jim Crow laws were modeled after the Northern Black Codes which preceded the Jim Crow laws by many years. There may have been a northern state without Black Codes but I couldn’t name that state, unless it was one of those with 0.001 percent black population like, say, Vermont.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    , @Mike Tre
    @Almost Missouri

    Yes. I made reference to what you are saying with my term "intensive local authority." Jim Crow or not, blacks were given a much shorter leash then the rest of the population throughout the US, and for good reason.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  123. @Wency
    @mark green

    I'd agree with most of this, but would add that there's one other important variable weighing against secession: willingness to die.

    I point to the example of Catalonia, which no one else seems to ever bring up in these discussions. Catalonian politicians, with what seems to have been around 60% support from the population, declared independence. Then the central government just sent in law enforcement to arrest them, without shots fired. And now Catalonians seem to be largely over it.

    That 60% support might not seem so far from the perhaps 70-80% support the Confederate states had for secession, but actually it was several light years short of it. The difference is that in the Confederacy, people were prepared to fight, die, and sacrifice for the cause. People saying they support secession in these polls in Spain, the US, or any other modern decadent state are simply looking to signal disapproval of the central government, in a "complain about them on Twitter before going back to whatever I was watching on Netflix" sort of way. They're not signaling willingness to die, or to otherwise sacrifice, or to even give tacit support and cover to those willing to die.

    And the forces that want to keep this country together can't possibly be blocked by anything short of a locally-popular, well-organized movement of men willing to die. And I can't say such a movement will never arise in this country, only that a culture capable of producing it would be unrecognizable next to the culture of the present-day US.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    The difference is that in the Confederacy, people were prepared to fight, die, and sacrifice for the cause. People saying they support secession in these polls in Spain, the US, or any other modern decadent state are simply looking to signal disapproval of the central government, in a “complain about them on Twitter before going back to whatever I was watching on Netflix” sort of way.

    Yes, voting and polling distinguish poorly between the seriously motivated and the weakly motivated. Catalonia is sort of the PNW SWPL region of Spain. Them “supporting” independence is sort of like PNW SWPL “supporting” CHAZ/CHOP, or yoga women “supporting” Tibetan independence or whatever: it’s just poseur politics. A few people may get killed at the fringes in a tragi-comic way, but it’s just sound and fury signifying nothing. By contrast, if Confederates or Castilians support something, chances are they’re willing to take consequent action over it.

    There’s no obvious data-driven way to distinguish between the poseurs and the purposive, since not everything is answerable with abstract information. You might say that a more “hands-on” HBD is needed.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @Almost Missouri

    From what I've seen of Spain, the cultural differences between Castile and Catalonia are very real. Though support from Catalan independence seems to be deepest among the ancestral Catalan population, who are probably more grounded than the many transplants to Barcelona. That's generally how these things work, in any case -- if you encounter a transexual polyamorous throuple in the Bay Area, they're probably not natives, but weirdos from elsewhere that figured the Bay Area was the place to do their thing. The average person in Alabama and the Bay Area aren't nearly so different as their extremes are, and I would think the same principle holds in Castile and Catalonia.

    Which is to say, I don't think people in any place in the West would be serious about secession in the face of any real pushback from the central government. They're all far, far more similar to Catalonia in their basic decadent lifestyle and outlook than they are to Kandahar.

  124. One of the common objections to political dissolution is that the idea is dead on arrival because the cultural commissars will never let the others go.

    There is truth to this, though. The desire to determine the destiny of others is one of humanity’s great shortcomings, and it can’t be extinguished by any moral or political system. The extreme left knows that it’s utopian vision can’t be realized as long as there are people who won’t buy into it, and governmental control is the only way to force them to capitulate (in their minds.) Soviet Unions can never succeed as long as there are 20th century USA’s in the world.

    The greatest obstacles to dissolution, however, might be more along the line of border disputes and the, “who gets the nukes?” question. Regions more prone to radicalism and mob-ism are the ones to worry about in a military sense.

    Oh, and hey…can we take Detroit out of the Midwest and give it to the Northeast?

  125. Would solve nothing. Our problems revolve around the black minority (and not necessarily race in general), open borders and the destruction of Western ideology and cultural norms. This solution would only fracture the problem.

  126. @Dr. Doom
    The Federales won't let their meal tickets go.
    They already are underwater in enough debt to sink them.

    They cannot exist without you suckers paying the bills.
    You have to eliminate the Federales to get back your freedom.

    The Confederates made a huge mistake.
    They should have burned down Washington when they had the chance.

    Do not repeat their mistakes.
    You'll be called terrorists just for not supporting the Federales and their foreign masters.

    You have to eliminate the Federales in order to free yourselves.
    There is no other course.

    You can start by unplugging from them as much as possible.
    Barter. Trade amongst yourselves. Dump the petrodollar.

    Crush the monkey on your back by starving it out.
    Create your own microeconomy without the taxable petrodollar.

    When the riots start,the War begins.
    Form into groups. Your skin is your uniform.

    The FEDGOV is already bankrupt. You are the only ones keeping it going.
    You have to unplug from the system before it burns down or you will go down with it...

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Audacious Epigone

    Your skin is your uniform.

    Pithy. Unfortunately probably true.

    Form into groups.

    I take it that you’ve never served in the military. It’s not a criticism, but just an observation.

    Even groups as small as a squad require implicit trust that one’s squadmates share an identical understanding of the chain of command. This shared understanding simply does not exist without military training. Without military training, even a squad composed of brave men will dissolve under fire.

    Moreover, tragically, men whose skins are their uniforms will not be able to fight tanks, artillery and warplanes—not unless the military restrains itself via soft rules of engagement as in the recent Middle East wars.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @V. K. Ovelund


    Even groups as small as a squad require implicit trust that one’s squadmates share an identical understanding of the chain of command. This shared understanding simply does not exist without military training. Without military training, even a squad composed of brave men will dissolve under fire.

    Moreover, tragically, men whose skins are their uniforms will not be able to fight tanks, artillery and warplanes—not unless the military restrains itself via soft rules of engagement as in the recent Middle East wars.
     
    Yep.

    A disorganised rabble with guns (no matter how many guns they have) is more of a menace to itself than to anyone else.

    Replies: @Wency

  127. @Supply and Demand
    @RebelWriter

    I’m perfectly open to punishing the New Englanders as well. I was born in Wisconsin.

    Saddle a bill squarely on Brown University and the Boston shipping magnates, payable directly to every groid in the country. Still doesn’t change the fact that Southerners need another century of black-run reconstruction as a form accountability and just punishment for ruining America.

    Replies: @Curle

    The last day of the slave trade was January 1, 1808, approximately 26 years following the Treaty of Paris. Before 1713, black slaves in the colonies numbered fewer than the Native American slaves exported out of South Carolina in 1713 alone. Pre-1713 America was a near total white/NA society. Black slaves didn’t exceed whites as plantation workers until around 1750 and only amounted to approximately an 60/40 black/white split for plantation workers over the course of the entire century.

    Blacks may have been the largest workforce for the plantation economy in the 18th century but not for the overall agricultural economy which was dominated by white yeoman farmers supplying the majority of domestic production. Only 1/10 southerners owned slaves at slavery’s peak.

    The southern economy was explicitly designed for agricultural production by the British in the 17th century with the Brutish going so far as to bar much urban manufacture and incorporation of cities in the largest colonies, Virginia and the Carolinas, so manufacturing would not impede agricultural growth. Up to the Civil War it was the British demand for cotton to feed its textile industries that propped up the plantation economy.

    If you need to blame someone for Black slavery in North America you need to point the finger at the British colonial office of the 18th century not the generality of the southern population. It is the British who designed the whole colonial economy.

    • Replies: @Supply and Demand
    @Curle

    Very generous of you Curle. So we get the New Englanders and Old Englanders to fund Reconstruction 2.0.

    Anyone else? Maybe the dastardly Portuguese as well?

  128. @Almost Missouri
    @Mike Tre


    Is there any evidence throughout history of that occurring?
     
    Prior to the [un-]Civil Rights Act, the black population was not a serious problem. Prior to the welfare state, the black population was gradually assimilating. Yes, in a few States there were Jim Crow laws, but 1) these weren't really as onerous as lefthistorians pretend they were, and 2) most States did not have such laws yet still did not have a serious Negro problem.

    Replies: @Curle, @Mike Tre

    “ Yes, in a few States there were Jim Crow laws”

    I presume you are picking an reference point very close to the 1960s. The Jim Crow laws were modeled after the Northern Black Codes which preceded the Jim Crow laws by many years. There may have been a northern state without Black Codes but I couldn’t name that state, unless it was one of those with 0.001 percent black population like, say, Vermont.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Curle


    I presume you are picking an reference point very close to the 1960s.
     
    The reference "point" is 1868 to 1964, so about a century, which is longer than the US had slavery and longer than the US has survived since the [anti-]Civil Rights Act.

    The Northern "Black Codes", to the extent they existed (sources are long on outrage and short on citations), ended in 1868 with Fourteenth Amendment. For that matter, discriminatory Southern Jim Crow laws did too. Most of what modern present-tense-ists complain about in "Jim Crow" is 1) pre-1868, 2) not actually law, and/or 3) not actually discriminatory (e.g., anti-miscegenation laws, whatever your personal opinion about them, applied equally to whites and blacks).

    Replies: @Curle, @RebelWriter

  129. @Curle
    @Almost Missouri

    “ Yes, in a few States there were Jim Crow laws”

    I presume you are picking an reference point very close to the 1960s. The Jim Crow laws were modeled after the Northern Black Codes which preceded the Jim Crow laws by many years. There may have been a northern state without Black Codes but I couldn’t name that state, unless it was one of those with 0.001 percent black population like, say, Vermont.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    I presume you are picking an reference point very close to the 1960s.

    The reference “point” is 1868 to 1964, so about a century, which is longer than the US had slavery and longer than the US has survived since the [anti-]Civil Rights Act.

    The Northern “Black Codes”, to the extent they existed (sources are long on outrage and short on citations), ended in 1868 with Fourteenth Amendment. For that matter, discriminatory Southern Jim Crow laws did too. Most of what modern present-tense-ists complain about in “Jim Crow” is 1) pre-1868, 2) not actually law, and/or 3) not actually discriminatory (e.g., anti-miscegenation laws, whatever your personal opinion about them, applied equally to whites and blacks).

    • Replies: @Curle
    @Almost Missouri

    “The Northern “Black Codes”, to the extent they existed (sources are long on outrage and short on citations)”

    Not sure what you mean by that. If you expect lectures to the general public referencing laws to give an citation each time mentioned before you’ll take them seriously perhaps, but that’s hardly the norm for conversations among non-lawyers. I’ve seen substantial supportive documentation for these claims. Livingston’s always a good start.

    https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/lectures/anti-slavery-and-northern-racism-by-donald-livingston/

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    , @RebelWriter
    @Almost Missouri

    Citations included.

    http://slavenorth.com/exclusion.htm

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  130. @Almost Missouri
    @Wency


    The difference is that in the Confederacy, people were prepared to fight, die, and sacrifice for the cause. People saying they support secession in these polls in Spain, the US, or any other modern decadent state are simply looking to signal disapproval of the central government, in a “complain about them on Twitter before going back to whatever I was watching on Netflix” sort of way.
     
    Yes, voting and polling distinguish poorly between the seriously motivated and the weakly motivated. Catalonia is sort of the PNW SWPL region of Spain. Them "supporting" independence is sort of like PNW SWPL "supporting" CHAZ/CHOP, or yoga women "supporting" Tibetan independence or whatever: it's just poseur politics. A few people may get killed at the fringes in a tragi-comic way, but it's just sound and fury signifying nothing. By contrast, if Confederates or Castilians support something, chances are they're willing to take consequent action over it.

    There's no obvious data-driven way to distinguish between the poseurs and the purposive, since not everything is answerable with abstract information. You might say that a more "hands-on" HBD is needed.

    Replies: @Wency

    From what I’ve seen of Spain, the cultural differences between Castile and Catalonia are very real. Though support from Catalan independence seems to be deepest among the ancestral Catalan population, who are probably more grounded than the many transplants to Barcelona. That’s generally how these things work, in any case — if you encounter a transexual polyamorous throuple in the Bay Area, they’re probably not natives, but weirdos from elsewhere that figured the Bay Area was the place to do their thing. The average person in Alabama and the Bay Area aren’t nearly so different as their extremes are, and I would think the same principle holds in Castile and Catalonia.

    Which is to say, I don’t think people in any place in the West would be serious about secession in the face of any real pushback from the central government. They’re all far, far more similar to Catalonia in their basic decadent lifestyle and outlook than they are to Kandahar.

  131. @Almost Missouri
    @Curle


    I presume you are picking an reference point very close to the 1960s.
     
    The reference "point" is 1868 to 1964, so about a century, which is longer than the US had slavery and longer than the US has survived since the [anti-]Civil Rights Act.

    The Northern "Black Codes", to the extent they existed (sources are long on outrage and short on citations), ended in 1868 with Fourteenth Amendment. For that matter, discriminatory Southern Jim Crow laws did too. Most of what modern present-tense-ists complain about in "Jim Crow" is 1) pre-1868, 2) not actually law, and/or 3) not actually discriminatory (e.g., anti-miscegenation laws, whatever your personal opinion about them, applied equally to whites and blacks).

    Replies: @Curle, @RebelWriter

    “The Northern “Black Codes”, to the extent they existed (sources are long on outrage and short on citations)”

    Not sure what you mean by that. If you expect lectures to the general public referencing laws to give an citation each time mentioned before you’ll take them seriously perhaps, but that’s hardly the norm for conversations among non-lawyers. I’ve seen substantial supportive documentation for these claims. Livingston’s always a good start.

    https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/lectures/anti-slavery-and-northern-racism-by-donald-livingston/

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Curle

    Thanks for the citation to Donald Livingston. Nevertheless, if you listen to the esteemed Professor's lecture, you will notice that it is entirely devoted to the period before the Civil War.

    I am not arguing for a return to an antebellum status, whether real or mythical. I am merely arguing for a continuation of the modern condition but with full civil rights, including freedom of association, and for the Federal government to cease its expensive, destructive and minute tyrannizing of American citizens. This won't solve every race-related problem in the US, but it may well solve 80% at one stroke.

  132. @Almost Missouri
    @Curle


    I presume you are picking an reference point very close to the 1960s.
     
    The reference "point" is 1868 to 1964, so about a century, which is longer than the US had slavery and longer than the US has survived since the [anti-]Civil Rights Act.

    The Northern "Black Codes", to the extent they existed (sources are long on outrage and short on citations), ended in 1868 with Fourteenth Amendment. For that matter, discriminatory Southern Jim Crow laws did too. Most of what modern present-tense-ists complain about in "Jim Crow" is 1) pre-1868, 2) not actually law, and/or 3) not actually discriminatory (e.g., anti-miscegenation laws, whatever your personal opinion about them, applied equally to whites and blacks).

    Replies: @Curle, @RebelWriter

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @RebelWriter

    Thanks for the page of history.

    Everything it describes was pre-1868 (Fourteenth Amendment), indeed, pre-Civil War, so it is all in category 1) in my previous comment.

  133. @Almost Missouri
    @Mike Tre


    Is there any evidence throughout history of that occurring?
     
    Prior to the [un-]Civil Rights Act, the black population was not a serious problem. Prior to the welfare state, the black population was gradually assimilating. Yes, in a few States there were Jim Crow laws, but 1) these weren't really as onerous as lefthistorians pretend they were, and 2) most States did not have such laws yet still did not have a serious Negro problem.

    Replies: @Curle, @Mike Tre

    Yes. I made reference to what you are saying with my term “intensive local authority.” Jim Crow or not, blacks were given a much shorter leash then the rest of the population throughout the US, and for good reason.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Mike Tre

    They were, in a few places where they were plentiful and there was a history with them. But the degree to which blacks used to be subject to formal authority is overstated. Most of the formerly amicable state of race relations was really due to the opposite of authority: it used to be that no one was forced to mix with other races if they didn't want to. Now the most powerful government on earth has taken it as its highest priority to force race mixing wherever it can. The results are as dire as they are foreseeable.

  134. @Mike Tre
    @Almost Missouri

    Yes. I made reference to what you are saying with my term "intensive local authority." Jim Crow or not, blacks were given a much shorter leash then the rest of the population throughout the US, and for good reason.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    They were, in a few places where they were plentiful and there was a history with them. But the degree to which blacks used to be subject to formal authority is overstated. Most of the formerly amicable state of race relations was really due to the opposite of authority: it used to be that no one was forced to mix with other races if they didn’t want to. Now the most powerful government on earth has taken it as its highest priority to force race mixing wherever it can. The results are as dire as they are foreseeable.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
  135. @RebelWriter
    @Almost Missouri

    Citations included.

    http://slavenorth.com/exclusion.htm

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Thanks for the page of history.

    Everything it describes was pre-1868 (Fourteenth Amendment), indeed, pre-Civil War, so it is all in category 1) in my previous comment.

  136. @Curle
    @Supply and Demand

    The last day of the slave trade was January 1, 1808, approximately 26 years following the Treaty of Paris. Before 1713, black slaves in the colonies numbered fewer than the Native American slaves exported out of South Carolina in 1713 alone. Pre-1713 America was a near total white/NA society. Black slaves didn’t exceed whites as plantation workers until around 1750 and only amounted to approximately an 60/40 black/white split for plantation workers over the course of the entire century.

    Blacks may have been the largest workforce for the plantation economy in the 18th century but not for the overall agricultural economy which was dominated by white yeoman farmers supplying the majority of domestic production. Only 1/10 southerners owned slaves at slavery’s peak.

    The southern economy was explicitly designed for agricultural production by the British in the 17th century with the Brutish going so far as to bar much urban manufacture and incorporation of cities in the largest colonies, Virginia and the Carolinas, so manufacturing would not impede agricultural growth. Up to the Civil War it was the British demand for cotton to feed its textile industries that propped up the plantation economy.

    If you need to blame someone for Black slavery in North America you need to point the finger at the British colonial office of the 18th century not the generality of the southern population. It is the British who designed the whole colonial economy.

    Replies: @Supply and Demand

    Very generous of you Curle. So we get the New Englanders and Old Englanders to fund Reconstruction 2.0.

    Anyone else? Maybe the dastardly Portuguese as well?

  137. @Almost Missouri
    @mark green


    What’s worse, anti-secessionists are (I suspect) greater in number
     
    Looking at AE's chart and other indicators, I gather that secessionists are about 30%, anti-secessionists are about 30%, and the waffle-y/low info/undecided middle is about 40%.

    and far far greater in wealth/influence than those of us who want to see the militarized behemoth otherwise known as the USA cut down to size.
     
    Agreed, but 1) that wealth/influence is largely tied to and a product of fiat dollars, and 2) despite that wealth/influence, our numbers are growing while theirs are shrinking. So maybe wealth/influence isn't everything.

    Would the dollar be the new trans-regional currency?
     
    Probably, unless the Federal Reserve's incontinence has inflated it away by then. But I would want to decouple from the Federal Reserve thievery with all deliberate speed.

    If so, which region would be in charge of printing dollars?
     
    Whichever region has the soundest currency. Note that:

    1) There's nothing wrong with a gold standard (which happens to be in the Constitution).

    2) There's nothing wrong with having multiple currencies. The US did during it's early decades (US, Spanish, Mexican, and local) and real economic growth was higher then than now.

    3) The not very hidden agenda of maximum-granularity dissolution and reformation is that the red regions have pretty easy and obvious common interest and contiguity, so in reality total secession and dissolution would likely lead rapidly to a large red nation reconstitution along originalist Constitutional lines. The only "regions" would be diversity-choked blue islands floundering on the fringes.

    Would all the new nations which emerge from the carcass of the former USA have their own separate armies?
     
    They already do. They're called "state militias", or nowadays, "National Guards". Those happen to be in the Constitution. A standing Federal Army is not. For good reason.

    –and nuclear weapons, too?
     
    North Central Plains states may emerge as the world's foremost nuclear power. And that's a good thing. Certainly better than having the idiots and psychos in DC with their fingers on the button.

    Breaking up the USA would not likely be permitted by the SCOTUS
     
    Haha. Who's asking them? Only deliberate obstructionists. "permitted" ... haha, as if they get a say in this.

    Existing institutions such as the courts as well as the military would almost certainly resist lawful secession.
     
    Of course Federal courts think you must submit to Federal authority. Only a fool would ask them to be "permitted" to secede, haha, sorry, the notion is just so funny. Like if George Washington had asked a Royal Court in Westminster, "May we please stop being your colony?" Haha. The thing about Independence is, you don't need permission. By definition.

    The military (i.e., the unconstitutional Federal standing army) is another matter. The Pentagon would almost certainly resent having the country that pays for their nonsense pull out from under them, however justly. On the other hand, what're they gonna do about it? Most of their actual trigger-pullers lean strongly red, despite wokeshevik efforts to change that. And even the non-trigger-pulling soldiers have to live somewhere. There's only so much barrack space in DC, so most of them (who aren't already deployed overseas) live in states, mostly red states, which also happen to be where they mostly come from. Even if the military adheres to their wokeshevik flag officer/tyrants, the modern US military on an unlimited budget could not pacify a few million Afghani goat herders in 20 years of trying. What are their chances on hyperinflating fiat currency against 100 million of their extended family before their food, water and fuel supplies run out?

    Since abolishing the USA would be next to impossible, reinvigorating ‘States Rights’ is the most efficient and practical way to reclaim lost liberty.
     
    The power to "reinvigorate" states rights is basically the same thing as the power to abolish and reconstitute the United States. And the power standing against both is the same too: the illegitimate power of the banking cartel. When the banking cartel's prime weapon—fiat currency—weakens sufficiently, revolutionary conditions will automatically pertain anyway, so the only question becomes, "what are we gonna do about it?", in an environment where fiat currency access no longer matters and the willingness and ability to secure territory suddenly matters a great deal.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Looking at AE’s chart and other indicators, I gather that secessionists are about 30%, anti-secessionists are about 30%, and the waffle-y/low info/undecided middle is about 40%.

    When it comes to the crunch most of the undecided are likely to come down on the anti-secessionist side. When it comes to the crunch most of the secessionists will end up coming down on the anti-secessionist side as well, once they realise that secession will involve high costs and extreme risks.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @dfordoom

    Presently, the highest costs and extreme-est risks look to be in maintaining the status quo.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  138. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Dr. Doom


    Your skin is your uniform.
     
    Pithy. Unfortunately probably true.

    Form into groups.
     
    I take it that you've never served in the military. It's not a criticism, but just an observation.

    Even groups as small as a squad require implicit trust that one's squadmates share an identical understanding of the chain of command. This shared understanding simply does not exist without military training. Without military training, even a squad composed of brave men will dissolve under fire.

    Moreover, tragically, men whose skins are their uniforms will not be able to fight tanks, artillery and warplanes—not unless the military restrains itself via soft rules of engagement as in the recent Middle East wars.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Even groups as small as a squad require implicit trust that one’s squadmates share an identical understanding of the chain of command. This shared understanding simply does not exist without military training. Without military training, even a squad composed of brave men will dissolve under fire.

    Moreover, tragically, men whose skins are their uniforms will not be able to fight tanks, artillery and warplanes—not unless the military restrains itself via soft rules of engagement as in the recent Middle East wars.

    Yep.

    A disorganised rabble with guns (no matter how many guns they have) is more of a menace to itself than to anyone else.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @dfordoom

    Indeed.

    I take a look at the sorts of losers whom one might expect to "rise up" in the US. And then I look at someone like Michael Collins. I imagine that Collins -- young, handsome, enterprising, intelligent, dynamic -- could have gone far if he had decided to continue pursuing a business or legal career in London instead of moving to Dublin to wage a guerilla war. But he went the guerilla war route, and thus Ireland became independent.

    I think if we speak about a successful 21st century violent secession campaign, it would look like the war that Collins waged. And thus it would need those components: a sympathetic local population, men willing to kill and die, and above all, one or more Michael Collins who could have been anything but decide that what they want to be is commanders of a guerrilla war secession operation.

    It's possible to accomplish some things with the raw material of disaffected losers living dead-end lives, but you actually need the Michael Collins of the world if you're going to mold them and take them anywhere.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

  139. @Curle
    @Almost Missouri

    “The Northern “Black Codes”, to the extent they existed (sources are long on outrage and short on citations)”

    Not sure what you mean by that. If you expect lectures to the general public referencing laws to give an citation each time mentioned before you’ll take them seriously perhaps, but that’s hardly the norm for conversations among non-lawyers. I’ve seen substantial supportive documentation for these claims. Livingston’s always a good start.

    https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/lectures/anti-slavery-and-northern-racism-by-donald-livingston/

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Thanks for the citation to Donald Livingston. Nevertheless, if you listen to the esteemed Professor’s lecture, you will notice that it is entirely devoted to the period before the Civil War.

    I am not arguing for a return to an antebellum status, whether real or mythical. I am merely arguing for a continuation of the modern condition but with full civil rights, including freedom of association, and for the Federal government to cease its expensive, destructive and minute tyrannizing of American citizens. This won’t solve every race-related problem in the US, but it may well solve 80% at one stroke.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
  140. @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    Looking at AE’s chart and other indicators, I gather that secessionists are about 30%, anti-secessionists are about 30%, and the waffle-y/low info/undecided middle is about 40%.
     
    When it comes to the crunch most of the undecided are likely to come down on the anti-secessionist side. When it comes to the crunch most of the secessionists will end up coming down on the anti-secessionist side as well, once they realise that secession will involve high costs and extreme risks.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Presently, the highest costs and extreme-est risks look to be in maintaining the status quo.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    Presently, the highest costs and extreme-est risks look to be in maintaining the status quo.
     
    Take a look at what happened in Yugoslavia.

    Dissident rightists wildly exaggerate just how bad the status quo is. When it comes to the crunch most people (quite sensibly) will opt for the status quo. Most people do not see the status quo the way dissident rightists see it.

    The supposed support for secession is, as another commenter pointed out, just people venting their frustrations. Once the costs and the risks are pointed out to them they will very quickly lose all interest in secession.

    It's like all those liberals who were going to move to Canada if George W. Bush won. How many actually moved to Canada? Virtually none. They were just venting.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Almost Missouri, @Audacious Epigone

  141. @dfordoom
    @V. K. Ovelund


    Even groups as small as a squad require implicit trust that one’s squadmates share an identical understanding of the chain of command. This shared understanding simply does not exist without military training. Without military training, even a squad composed of brave men will dissolve under fire.

    Moreover, tragically, men whose skins are their uniforms will not be able to fight tanks, artillery and warplanes—not unless the military restrains itself via soft rules of engagement as in the recent Middle East wars.
     
    Yep.

    A disorganised rabble with guns (no matter how many guns they have) is more of a menace to itself than to anyone else.

    Replies: @Wency

    Indeed.

    I take a look at the sorts of losers whom one might expect to “rise up” in the US. And then I look at someone like Michael Collins. I imagine that Collins — young, handsome, enterprising, intelligent, dynamic — could have gone far if he had decided to continue pursuing a business or legal career in London instead of moving to Dublin to wage a guerilla war. But he went the guerilla war route, and thus Ireland became independent.

    I think if we speak about a successful 21st century violent secession campaign, it would look like the war that Collins waged. And thus it would need those components: a sympathetic local population, men willing to kill and die, and above all, one or more Michael Collins who could have been anything but decide that what they want to be is commanders of a guerrilla war secession operation.

    It’s possible to accomplish some things with the raw material of disaffected losers living dead-end lives, but you actually need the Michael Collins of the world if you’re going to mold them and take them anywhere.

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Wency


    It’s possible to accomplish some things with the raw material of disaffected losers living dead-end lives, but you actually need the Michael Collins of the world if you’re going to mold them and take them anywhere.
     
    The curtain hung by media propaganda has shrouded the Michael Collins that may already be in place.

    Does anyone believe that media propaganda has not exaggerated the loserdom of the Michael Collins' followers?

    Cancel culture was first invented to cancel those people. Someone evidently thought them a threat.

    Out of curiosity: I linked some videos of the personnel in question some months ago. Supposing that commenters find me sufficiently credible to recommend a video, did any white Gentile commenter go and watch?

    If none did, then some commenters (I do not especially mean you, Wency) should consider the possibility that they have no idea what they are talking about.

    Replies: @Wency

  142. @Wency
    @dfordoom

    Indeed.

    I take a look at the sorts of losers whom one might expect to "rise up" in the US. And then I look at someone like Michael Collins. I imagine that Collins -- young, handsome, enterprising, intelligent, dynamic -- could have gone far if he had decided to continue pursuing a business or legal career in London instead of moving to Dublin to wage a guerilla war. But he went the guerilla war route, and thus Ireland became independent.

    I think if we speak about a successful 21st century violent secession campaign, it would look like the war that Collins waged. And thus it would need those components: a sympathetic local population, men willing to kill and die, and above all, one or more Michael Collins who could have been anything but decide that what they want to be is commanders of a guerrilla war secession operation.

    It's possible to accomplish some things with the raw material of disaffected losers living dead-end lives, but you actually need the Michael Collins of the world if you're going to mold them and take them anywhere.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    It’s possible to accomplish some things with the raw material of disaffected losers living dead-end lives, but you actually need the Michael Collins of the world if you’re going to mold them and take them anywhere.

    The curtain hung by media propaganda has shrouded the Michael Collins that may already be in place.

    Does anyone believe that media propaganda has not exaggerated the loserdom of the Michael Collins’ followers?

    Cancel culture was first invented to cancel those people. Someone evidently thought them a threat.

    Out of curiosity: I linked some videos of the personnel in question some months ago. Supposing that commenters find me sufficiently credible to recommend a video, did any white Gentile commenter go and watch?

    If none did, then some commenters (I do not especially mean you, Wency) should consider the possibility that they have no idea what they are talking about.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I'm open to reviewing the videos you're talking about. I'm also open to the possibility that, somewhere in the US militia movement and adjacent spaces, there are hyper-competent figures, and that I've been misled.

    The sorts of individuals we actually see getting busted for right-wing terrorism seem, basically without exception, to be of a lower caliber than the leadership class of the 1916 Easter Rising. The Unabomber (though not strictly right-wing) is perhaps an exception in some regards, but he apparently lacked social skills and had to work alone. In fact, they all have to work alone -- no one is capable of organizing. If they try to, someone always informs on his fellows.

    But maybe we're only seeing the idiots getting busted and trying things, and all the competent sorts are quietly preparing and biding their time. I'm skeptical, but maybe.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

  143. @Almost Missouri
    @dfordoom

    Presently, the highest costs and extreme-est risks look to be in maintaining the status quo.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Presently, the highest costs and extreme-est risks look to be in maintaining the status quo.

    Take a look at what happened in Yugoslavia.

    Dissident rightists wildly exaggerate just how bad the status quo is. When it comes to the crunch most people (quite sensibly) will opt for the status quo. Most people do not see the status quo the way dissident rightists see it.

    The supposed support for secession is, as another commenter pointed out, just people venting their frustrations. Once the costs and the risks are pointed out to them they will very quickly lose all interest in secession.

    It’s like all those liberals who were going to move to Canada if George W. Bush won. How many actually moved to Canada? Virtually none. They were just venting.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @dfordoom


    Dissident rightists wildly exaggerate just how bad the status quo is.
     
    Who is the wilder exaggerator? They, or the man you see in the mirror?

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Almost Missouri
    @dfordoom

    As mentioned in many prior comments, the main component of the status quo is the fiat currency. When that ends, so does the status quo.

    Nevertheless, plenty of secessions have happened without a socio-economic catastrophe: Slovakia from Czechoslovakia, Norway from union with Sweden, Scotland reclaiming its parliament through the most tedious and bourgeois means. Heck, Quebec came within a percentage point of seceding from Canada just a few years ago during peace and prosperity.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    We've had good exchanges on this issue over the last couple of years. One thing I concede is that the prospect of political dissolution probably only becomes realistic with a real economic crisis--not just a stock market recession--something like the destruction of the US dollar as the global reserve currency.

    On the other hand, our rulers look like that's what they're trying to do. This year it's looking like federal will spending will be $10 trillion while taxation revenue will be $3.5 trillion. That will be the second year in a row where less than half of total government expenditures are collected via tax revenue, something unprecedented in American history.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  144. @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    Presently, the highest costs and extreme-est risks look to be in maintaining the status quo.
     
    Take a look at what happened in Yugoslavia.

    Dissident rightists wildly exaggerate just how bad the status quo is. When it comes to the crunch most people (quite sensibly) will opt for the status quo. Most people do not see the status quo the way dissident rightists see it.

    The supposed support for secession is, as another commenter pointed out, just people venting their frustrations. Once the costs and the risks are pointed out to them they will very quickly lose all interest in secession.

    It's like all those liberals who were going to move to Canada if George W. Bush won. How many actually moved to Canada? Virtually none. They were just venting.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Almost Missouri, @Audacious Epigone

    Dissident rightists wildly exaggerate just how bad the status quo is.

    Who is the wilder exaggerator? They, or the man you see in the mirror?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @V. K. Ovelund



    Dissident rightists wildly exaggerate just how bad the status quo is.
     
    Who is the wilder exaggerator? They, or the man you see in the mirror?
     
    I'm not suggesting that the status quo is either favourable or healthy. What I am suggesting is that it's not bad enough to justify the risks involved in a "Let's just smash the system" approach.

    For centuries social revolutionaries have been claiming that the status quo is so bad that smashing the system is the only answer. The usual result has been a bloodbath followed by the imposition of a new regime that is often just as bad if not worse than the status quo that was overthrown.

    "Meet the new boss
    Same as the old boss"

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Audacious Epigone

  145. @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    Presently, the highest costs and extreme-est risks look to be in maintaining the status quo.
     
    Take a look at what happened in Yugoslavia.

    Dissident rightists wildly exaggerate just how bad the status quo is. When it comes to the crunch most people (quite sensibly) will opt for the status quo. Most people do not see the status quo the way dissident rightists see it.

    The supposed support for secession is, as another commenter pointed out, just people venting their frustrations. Once the costs and the risks are pointed out to them they will very quickly lose all interest in secession.

    It's like all those liberals who were going to move to Canada if George W. Bush won. How many actually moved to Canada? Virtually none. They were just venting.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Almost Missouri, @Audacious Epigone

    As mentioned in many prior comments, the main component of the status quo is the fiat currency. When that ends, so does the status quo.

    Nevertheless, plenty of secessions have happened without a socio-economic catastrophe: Slovakia from Czechoslovakia, Norway from union with Sweden, Scotland reclaiming its parliament through the most tedious and bourgeois means. Heck, Quebec came within a percentage point of seceding from Canada just a few years ago during peace and prosperity.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    Nevertheless, plenty of secessions have happened without a socio-economic catastrophe: Slovakia from Czechoslovakia, Norway from union with Sweden, Scotland reclaiming its parliament through the most tedious and bourgeois means. Heck, Quebec came within a percentage point of seceding from Canada just a few years ago during peace and prosperity.
     
    Those were all cases where there were clear-cut ethnic/cultural/linguistic divides and/or pre-existing national identities. And they were cases were secession could be achieved without any major arguments about where the new borders were going to be drawn. There was no need for any major population transfers.

    In the US there are no clear-cut ethnic/cultural divides. And no easy way of determining where the new borders are to be drawn.

    Unfortunately the US situation is closer to Yugoslavia before it broke up (or India prior to Partition), with ethnicities hopelessly mixed up. It would require massive population transfers (a nice term for ethnic cleansing). The breaking up of Yugoslavia and the Partition of India both ended in bloodbaths.

    Secession in the US would require population transfers on an even bigger scale, with presumably the result being an even bigger bloodbath.

    And pro-secessionists in the US are not even clear about what they actually want. Some want the country divided on racial/ethnic lines and some want it divided on ideological lines. If you divide the country on racial/ethnic lines you'll still have bitter ideological divides. If you divide the country on ideological lines you'll still have bitter racial/ethnic divides.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Audacious Epigone

  146. @V. K. Ovelund
    @Wency


    It’s possible to accomplish some things with the raw material of disaffected losers living dead-end lives, but you actually need the Michael Collins of the world if you’re going to mold them and take them anywhere.
     
    The curtain hung by media propaganda has shrouded the Michael Collins that may already be in place.

    Does anyone believe that media propaganda has not exaggerated the loserdom of the Michael Collins' followers?

    Cancel culture was first invented to cancel those people. Someone evidently thought them a threat.

    Out of curiosity: I linked some videos of the personnel in question some months ago. Supposing that commenters find me sufficiently credible to recommend a video, did any white Gentile commenter go and watch?

    If none did, then some commenters (I do not especially mean you, Wency) should consider the possibility that they have no idea what they are talking about.

    Replies: @Wency

    I’m open to reviewing the videos you’re talking about. I’m also open to the possibility that, somewhere in the US militia movement and adjacent spaces, there are hyper-competent figures, and that I’ve been misled.

    The sorts of individuals we actually see getting busted for right-wing terrorism seem, basically without exception, to be of a lower caliber than the leadership class of the 1916 Easter Rising. The Unabomber (though not strictly right-wing) is perhaps an exception in some regards, but he apparently lacked social skills and had to work alone. In fact, they all have to work alone — no one is capable of organizing. If they try to, someone always informs on his fellows.

    But maybe we’re only seeing the idiots getting busted and trying things, and all the competent sorts are quietly preparing and biding their time. I’m skeptical, but maybe.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @Wency


    The sorts of individuals we actually see getting busted for right-wing terrorism seem, basically without exception, to be of a lower caliber than the leadership class of the 1916 Easter Rising.
     
    True.

    But maybe we’re only seeing the idiots getting busted and trying things, and all the competent sorts are quietly preparing and biding their time. I’m skeptical, but maybe.
     
    Skepticism is prudent.

    I’m open to reviewing the videos you’re talking about. I’m also open to the possibility that, somewhere in the US militia movement and adjacent spaces, there are hyper-competent figures, and that I’ve been misled.
     
    That's the thing: you already know that you've been misled. You've been lied to about practically everything else, after all.

    This isn't Ireland, it isn't 1916, and World War I is not underway, so parallels will be limited. I cannot show you hyper-competence, but I can show you a better grade of human capital than recent discussions here would have you expect.

    1. Mike Peinovich. The first eight minutes make a fair sample.

    2. Lana Lokteff. The first four minutes make a fair sample.

    Both are aged in their early 40s.

  147. @Almost Missouri
    @dfordoom

    As mentioned in many prior comments, the main component of the status quo is the fiat currency. When that ends, so does the status quo.

    Nevertheless, plenty of secessions have happened without a socio-economic catastrophe: Slovakia from Czechoslovakia, Norway from union with Sweden, Scotland reclaiming its parliament through the most tedious and bourgeois means. Heck, Quebec came within a percentage point of seceding from Canada just a few years ago during peace and prosperity.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Nevertheless, plenty of secessions have happened without a socio-economic catastrophe: Slovakia from Czechoslovakia, Norway from union with Sweden, Scotland reclaiming its parliament through the most tedious and bourgeois means. Heck, Quebec came within a percentage point of seceding from Canada just a few years ago during peace and prosperity.

    Those were all cases where there were clear-cut ethnic/cultural/linguistic divides and/or pre-existing national identities. And they were cases were secession could be achieved without any major arguments about where the new borders were going to be drawn. There was no need for any major population transfers.

    In the US there are no clear-cut ethnic/cultural divides. And no easy way of determining where the new borders are to be drawn.

    Unfortunately the US situation is closer to Yugoslavia before it broke up (or India prior to Partition), with ethnicities hopelessly mixed up. It would require massive population transfers (a nice term for ethnic cleansing). The breaking up of Yugoslavia and the Partition of India both ended in bloodbaths.

    Secession in the US would require population transfers on an even bigger scale, with presumably the result being an even bigger bloodbath.

    And pro-secessionists in the US are not even clear about what they actually want. Some want the country divided on racial/ethnic lines and some want it divided on ideological lines. If you divide the country on racial/ethnic lines you’ll still have bitter ideological divides. If you divide the country on ideological lines you’ll still have bitter racial/ethnic divides.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @dfordoom


    Those were all cases where there were clear-cut ethnic/cultural/linguistic divides and/or pre-existing national identities.
     
    Norwegians and Swedes are barely different. The difference between Scots and other Brits is not so obvious to outsiders, and there are plenty of British of mixed Scots/non-Scot ancestry.

    Meanwhile the US Civil War (aka War for Southern Secession) was fought between quite literally the same people, sometimes fought literally within families.

    So whatever it is that makes some secessions violent and some not, this ain't it.

    And they were cases were secession could be achieved without any major arguments about where the new borders were going to be drawn.
     
    There were (and still are) mixed Czech and Slovak areas, they just didn't and don't fight about it. Even the adept and able Romans had a hard time deciding where the Scottish border would be, yet the Scots are managing to have a separate politics.

    Meanwhile the State borders at Confederate secession in 1861 were crystal clear to everyone and undisputed by everyone, whether or not they favored secession. Yet that secession turned violent anyway.

    So whatever it is that makes some secessions violent and some not, this ain't it.

    There was no need for any major population transfers.
     
    Plenty of Scots live outside Scotland and non-Scots live within it, but no one is fighting about it or forcing population transfers. Balts live in Russia and Russians live in Baltic states, but the Baltic states seceded peacefully and without forced population transfers.

    Meanwhile no one called for moving Alabamans to Massachusetts or vice versa, yet Alabama's secession got violent anyway.

    So whatever it is that makes some secessions violent and some not, this ain't it.

    In the US there are no clear-cut ethnic/cultural divides.
     
    There certainly are. Not that I think it matters very much in this case, as this is primarily a political rather than ethnic divergence. Of course, there are people, mostly in blue zones, working to make it a matter of ethnicity, but so far only with limited success. Reds just want to be left alone by blues. Blues want to rule reds. That is the fundamental divergence. Everything else is just an elaboration on top of that basic political fact.

    And no easy way of determining where the new borders are to be drawn.
     
    As I've said over and over: counties. Almost all fall very neatly to one side or the other of the political dichotomy.

    the US situation is closer to Yugoslavia before it broke up (or India prior to Partition), with ethnicities hopelessly mixed up.
     
    As averred, the present US political dichotomy is not primarily ethnic. There are non-whites who would like to live under red rules. There are whites who like to live under blue rules.

    Secession in the US would require population transfers on an even bigger scale, with presumably the result being an even bigger bloodbath.
     
    Nonsense. Anyone living in the "wrong" color (red/blue) county likely need move no more than one county's distance to put himself into the "correct" color. To say that Americans, among the most footloose and mobile people on earth cannot manage a one-county move to secure their preferred political future when they move much greater distances for much smaller reasons is absurd. And since the vast majority of counties already have a clear political-color identity, anyone already living there must be comfortable enough with the local political orientation.

    And pro-secessionists in the US are not even clear about what they actually want.
     
    Maybe not to you, but the last two national polls revealed a very clear and consistent distinction between people with two different visions of the political future.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    Process matters for public perception. If independence comes through a statewide proposition or as a successful gubernatorial campaign (or campaigns), crushing it militarily will revolt large swaths of the American population. If it's some sort of militia autonomous declaration, like CHAZ writ large, it won't survive.

  148. @Wency
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I'm open to reviewing the videos you're talking about. I'm also open to the possibility that, somewhere in the US militia movement and adjacent spaces, there are hyper-competent figures, and that I've been misled.

    The sorts of individuals we actually see getting busted for right-wing terrorism seem, basically without exception, to be of a lower caliber than the leadership class of the 1916 Easter Rising. The Unabomber (though not strictly right-wing) is perhaps an exception in some regards, but he apparently lacked social skills and had to work alone. In fact, they all have to work alone -- no one is capable of organizing. If they try to, someone always informs on his fellows.

    But maybe we're only seeing the idiots getting busted and trying things, and all the competent sorts are quietly preparing and biding their time. I'm skeptical, but maybe.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund

    The sorts of individuals we actually see getting busted for right-wing terrorism seem, basically without exception, to be of a lower caliber than the leadership class of the 1916 Easter Rising.

    True.

    But maybe we’re only seeing the idiots getting busted and trying things, and all the competent sorts are quietly preparing and biding their time. I’m skeptical, but maybe.

    Skepticism is prudent.

    I’m open to reviewing the videos you’re talking about. I’m also open to the possibility that, somewhere in the US militia movement and adjacent spaces, there are hyper-competent figures, and that I’ve been misled.

    That’s the thing: you already know that you’ve been misled. You’ve been lied to about practically everything else, after all.

    This isn’t Ireland, it isn’t 1916, and World War I is not underway, so parallels will be limited. I cannot show you hyper-competence, but I can show you a better grade of human capital than recent discussions here would have you expect.

    1. Mike Peinovich. The first eight minutes make a fair sample.

    2. Lana Lokteff. The first four minutes make a fair sample.

    Both are aged in their early 40s.

  149. @V. K. Ovelund
    @dfordoom


    Dissident rightists wildly exaggerate just how bad the status quo is.
     
    Who is the wilder exaggerator? They, or the man you see in the mirror?

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Dissident rightists wildly exaggerate just how bad the status quo is.

    Who is the wilder exaggerator? They, or the man you see in the mirror?

    I’m not suggesting that the status quo is either favourable or healthy. What I am suggesting is that it’s not bad enough to justify the risks involved in a “Let’s just smash the system” approach.

    For centuries social revolutionaries have been claiming that the status quo is so bad that smashing the system is the only answer. The usual result has been a bloodbath followed by the imposition of a new regime that is often just as bad if not worse than the status quo that was overthrown.

    “Meet the new boss
    Same as the old boss”

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @dfordoom


    For centuries social revolutionaries have been claiming that the status quo is so bad that smashing the system is the only answer. The usual result has been a bloodbath followed by the imposition of a new regime that is often just as bad if not worse than the status quo that was overthrown.
     
    The new regime is almost invariably worse.

    In my opinion, though, you have been too quick to find the mote in the U.S. dissident right's eye, and also too quick to suppose that persons targeted and oppressed by state power were congenital losers. Few if any true Scotsmen serious dissident rightists are demanding to burn it all down. That's Antifa. The dissident rightists who demand to burn it all down are faceless, are personalitiless, and look suspiciously like anonymous FBI shills.

    There do seem to be rather a lot of FBI shills about all of a sudden.

    If you would like to comment on the matter from a position of knowledge rather than ignorance, then I would recommend spending 12 minutes to watch the two videos I have posted to Wency's attention. The videos are recent, typical samples: they're not especially good and there is plenty to criticize there, but they're real communications by real persons who have been in the public eye for seven years or so each.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    This is mediated by generational differences though. The modal zoomer in the West is coming out of higher education with a degree of dubious utility, $50k in debt, looking at starter houses costing well north of a quarter of a million dollars, with a job where he earns $20 an hour if he's lucky. He's screwed and he senses it. That's why support for political violence, and desperation more generally, is so much higher among younger generations than the older ones.

  150. @dfordoom
    @V. K. Ovelund



    Dissident rightists wildly exaggerate just how bad the status quo is.
     
    Who is the wilder exaggerator? They, or the man you see in the mirror?
     
    I'm not suggesting that the status quo is either favourable or healthy. What I am suggesting is that it's not bad enough to justify the risks involved in a "Let's just smash the system" approach.

    For centuries social revolutionaries have been claiming that the status quo is so bad that smashing the system is the only answer. The usual result has been a bloodbath followed by the imposition of a new regime that is often just as bad if not worse than the status quo that was overthrown.

    "Meet the new boss
    Same as the old boss"

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Audacious Epigone

    For centuries social revolutionaries have been claiming that the status quo is so bad that smashing the system is the only answer. The usual result has been a bloodbath followed by the imposition of a new regime that is often just as bad if not worse than the status quo that was overthrown.

    The new regime is almost invariably worse.

    In my opinion, though, you have been too quick to find the mote in the U.S. dissident right’s eye, and also too quick to suppose that persons targeted and oppressed by state power were congenital losers. Few if any true Scotsmen serious dissident rightists are demanding to burn it all down. That’s Antifa. The dissident rightists who demand to burn it all down are faceless, are personalitiless, and look suspiciously like anonymous FBI shills.

    There do seem to be rather a lot of FBI shills about all of a sudden.

    If you would like to comment on the matter from a position of knowledge rather than ignorance, then I would recommend spending 12 minutes to watch the two videos I have posted to Wency’s attention. The videos are recent, typical samples: they’re not especially good and there is plenty to criticize there, but they’re real communications by real persons who have been in the public eye for seven years or so each.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @V. K. Ovelund


    There do seem to be rather a lot of FBI shills about all of a sudden.
     
    It does seem that way. It's a tried and proven method of discrediting opposition so I'm sure it's a priority for the FBI.
  151. @V. K. Ovelund
    @dfordoom


    For centuries social revolutionaries have been claiming that the status quo is so bad that smashing the system is the only answer. The usual result has been a bloodbath followed by the imposition of a new regime that is often just as bad if not worse than the status quo that was overthrown.
     
    The new regime is almost invariably worse.

    In my opinion, though, you have been too quick to find the mote in the U.S. dissident right's eye, and also too quick to suppose that persons targeted and oppressed by state power were congenital losers. Few if any true Scotsmen serious dissident rightists are demanding to burn it all down. That's Antifa. The dissident rightists who demand to burn it all down are faceless, are personalitiless, and look suspiciously like anonymous FBI shills.

    There do seem to be rather a lot of FBI shills about all of a sudden.

    If you would like to comment on the matter from a position of knowledge rather than ignorance, then I would recommend spending 12 minutes to watch the two videos I have posted to Wency's attention. The videos are recent, typical samples: they're not especially good and there is plenty to criticize there, but they're real communications by real persons who have been in the public eye for seven years or so each.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    There do seem to be rather a lot of FBI shills about all of a sudden.

    It does seem that way. It’s a tried and proven method of discrediting opposition so I’m sure it’s a priority for the FBI.

  152. @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    Nevertheless, plenty of secessions have happened without a socio-economic catastrophe: Slovakia from Czechoslovakia, Norway from union with Sweden, Scotland reclaiming its parliament through the most tedious and bourgeois means. Heck, Quebec came within a percentage point of seceding from Canada just a few years ago during peace and prosperity.
     
    Those were all cases where there were clear-cut ethnic/cultural/linguistic divides and/or pre-existing national identities. And they were cases were secession could be achieved without any major arguments about where the new borders were going to be drawn. There was no need for any major population transfers.

    In the US there are no clear-cut ethnic/cultural divides. And no easy way of determining where the new borders are to be drawn.

    Unfortunately the US situation is closer to Yugoslavia before it broke up (or India prior to Partition), with ethnicities hopelessly mixed up. It would require massive population transfers (a nice term for ethnic cleansing). The breaking up of Yugoslavia and the Partition of India both ended in bloodbaths.

    Secession in the US would require population transfers on an even bigger scale, with presumably the result being an even bigger bloodbath.

    And pro-secessionists in the US are not even clear about what they actually want. Some want the country divided on racial/ethnic lines and some want it divided on ideological lines. If you divide the country on racial/ethnic lines you'll still have bitter ideological divides. If you divide the country on ideological lines you'll still have bitter racial/ethnic divides.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Audacious Epigone

    Those were all cases where there were clear-cut ethnic/cultural/linguistic divides and/or pre-existing national identities.

    Norwegians and Swedes are barely different. The difference between Scots and other Brits is not so obvious to outsiders, and there are plenty of British of mixed Scots/non-Scot ancestry.

    Meanwhile the US Civil War (aka War for Southern Secession) was fought between quite literally the same people, sometimes fought literally within families.

    So whatever it is that makes some secessions violent and some not, this ain’t it.

    And they were cases were secession could be achieved without any major arguments about where the new borders were going to be drawn.

    There were (and still are) mixed Czech and Slovak areas, they just didn’t and don’t fight about it. Even the adept and able Romans had a hard time deciding where the Scottish border would be, yet the Scots are managing to have a separate politics.

    Meanwhile the State borders at Confederate secession in 1861 were crystal clear to everyone and undisputed by everyone, whether or not they favored secession. Yet that secession turned violent anyway.

    So whatever it is that makes some secessions violent and some not, this ain’t it.

    There was no need for any major population transfers.

    Plenty of Scots live outside Scotland and non-Scots live within it, but no one is fighting about it or forcing population transfers. Balts live in Russia and Russians live in Baltic states, but the Baltic states seceded peacefully and without forced population transfers.

    Meanwhile no one called for moving Alabamans to Massachusetts or vice versa, yet Alabama’s secession got violent anyway.

    So whatever it is that makes some secessions violent and some not, this ain’t it.

    In the US there are no clear-cut ethnic/cultural divides.

    There certainly are. Not that I think it matters very much in this case, as this is primarily a political rather than ethnic divergence. Of course, there are people, mostly in blue zones, working to make it a matter of ethnicity, but so far only with limited success. Reds just want to be left alone by blues. Blues want to rule reds. That is the fundamental divergence. Everything else is just an elaboration on top of that basic political fact.

    And no easy way of determining where the new borders are to be drawn.

    As I’ve said over and over: counties. Almost all fall very neatly to one side or the other of the political dichotomy.

    the US situation is closer to Yugoslavia before it broke up (or India prior to Partition), with ethnicities hopelessly mixed up.

    As averred, the present US political dichotomy is not primarily ethnic. There are non-whites who would like to live under red rules. There are whites who like to live under blue rules.

    Secession in the US would require population transfers on an even bigger scale, with presumably the result being an even bigger bloodbath.

    Nonsense. Anyone living in the “wrong” color (red/blue) county likely need move no more than one county’s distance to put himself into the “correct” color. To say that Americans, among the most footloose and mobile people on earth cannot manage a one-county move to secure their preferred political future when they move much greater distances for much smaller reasons is absurd. And since the vast majority of counties already have a clear political-color identity, anyone already living there must be comfortable enough with the local political orientation.

    And pro-secessionists in the US are not even clear about what they actually want.

    Maybe not to you, but the last two national polls revealed a very clear and consistent distinction between people with two different visions of the political future.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    Maybe not to you, but the last two national polls revealed a very clear and consistent distinction between people with two different visions of the political future.
     
    On the Right there is nothing that even resembles a clear and coherent vision of the political future. Even on the far Right (I use that term to embrace the dissident right and various other groups including the MAGA Hat Brigade) there is nothing that even resembles a clear and coherent vision of the political future.

    There are far rightists who are rabid free-marketeers and others whose economic ideas are almost socialist. There are far rightists who are obsessed with the evils of abortion and others who see abortion as a good thing on eugenic grounds. There are far rightists who are rabidly anti-war and anti-imperialist and others who are just as rabidly pro-war and pro-imperialist. There are far rightists who are extreme anti-semites and there are others (especially among the MAGAtards) who are very Zionist. There are far rightists who are extremely socially conservative and others who are social libertarians.

    There are far rightists who want secession and others who bitterly oppose it.

    There are far rightists who have vaguely coherent political views and others who are hysterical crazies obsessed with lunatic conspiracy theories.

    On the far right there are dozens of mutually incompatible visions of the political future. The only thing that unites the far right is that they are angry and disillusioned.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  153. @Almost Missouri
    @dfordoom


    Those were all cases where there were clear-cut ethnic/cultural/linguistic divides and/or pre-existing national identities.
     
    Norwegians and Swedes are barely different. The difference between Scots and other Brits is not so obvious to outsiders, and there are plenty of British of mixed Scots/non-Scot ancestry.

    Meanwhile the US Civil War (aka War for Southern Secession) was fought between quite literally the same people, sometimes fought literally within families.

    So whatever it is that makes some secessions violent and some not, this ain't it.

    And they were cases were secession could be achieved without any major arguments about where the new borders were going to be drawn.
     
    There were (and still are) mixed Czech and Slovak areas, they just didn't and don't fight about it. Even the adept and able Romans had a hard time deciding where the Scottish border would be, yet the Scots are managing to have a separate politics.

    Meanwhile the State borders at Confederate secession in 1861 were crystal clear to everyone and undisputed by everyone, whether or not they favored secession. Yet that secession turned violent anyway.

    So whatever it is that makes some secessions violent and some not, this ain't it.

    There was no need for any major population transfers.
     
    Plenty of Scots live outside Scotland and non-Scots live within it, but no one is fighting about it or forcing population transfers. Balts live in Russia and Russians live in Baltic states, but the Baltic states seceded peacefully and without forced population transfers.

    Meanwhile no one called for moving Alabamans to Massachusetts or vice versa, yet Alabama's secession got violent anyway.

    So whatever it is that makes some secessions violent and some not, this ain't it.

    In the US there are no clear-cut ethnic/cultural divides.
     
    There certainly are. Not that I think it matters very much in this case, as this is primarily a political rather than ethnic divergence. Of course, there are people, mostly in blue zones, working to make it a matter of ethnicity, but so far only with limited success. Reds just want to be left alone by blues. Blues want to rule reds. That is the fundamental divergence. Everything else is just an elaboration on top of that basic political fact.

    And no easy way of determining where the new borders are to be drawn.
     
    As I've said over and over: counties. Almost all fall very neatly to one side or the other of the political dichotomy.

    the US situation is closer to Yugoslavia before it broke up (or India prior to Partition), with ethnicities hopelessly mixed up.
     
    As averred, the present US political dichotomy is not primarily ethnic. There are non-whites who would like to live under red rules. There are whites who like to live under blue rules.

    Secession in the US would require population transfers on an even bigger scale, with presumably the result being an even bigger bloodbath.
     
    Nonsense. Anyone living in the "wrong" color (red/blue) county likely need move no more than one county's distance to put himself into the "correct" color. To say that Americans, among the most footloose and mobile people on earth cannot manage a one-county move to secure their preferred political future when they move much greater distances for much smaller reasons is absurd. And since the vast majority of counties already have a clear political-color identity, anyone already living there must be comfortable enough with the local political orientation.

    And pro-secessionists in the US are not even clear about what they actually want.
     
    Maybe not to you, but the last two national polls revealed a very clear and consistent distinction between people with two different visions of the political future.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Maybe not to you, but the last two national polls revealed a very clear and consistent distinction between people with two different visions of the political future.

    On the Right there is nothing that even resembles a clear and coherent vision of the political future. Even on the far Right (I use that term to embrace the dissident right and various other groups including the MAGA Hat Brigade) there is nothing that even resembles a clear and coherent vision of the political future.

    There are far rightists who are rabid free-marketeers and others whose economic ideas are almost socialist. There are far rightists who are obsessed with the evils of abortion and others who see abortion as a good thing on eugenic grounds. There are far rightists who are rabidly anti-war and anti-imperialist and others who are just as rabidly pro-war and pro-imperialist. There are far rightists who are extreme anti-semites and there are others (especially among the MAGAtards) who are very Zionist. There are far rightists who are extremely socially conservative and others who are social libertarians.

    There are far rightists who want secession and others who bitterly oppose it.

    There are far rightists who have vaguely coherent political views and others who are hysterical crazies obsessed with lunatic conspiracy theories.

    On the far right there are dozens of mutually incompatible visions of the political future. The only thing that unites the far right is that they are angry and disillusioned.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @dfordoom

    Rereading what I wrote, I see I didn't write that clearly enough.

    No political coalition has ever had a clear and consistent vision of the political future.

    No political coalition has ever needed a clear and consistent vision of the political future.

    What every political coalition has is a clear and consistent distinction compared to its opponents. A coalition need not make sense internally. It need only be distinct externally.

    The Left is also politically incompatible: Wall Street, communists, bourgeois bohemians, Jews, blacks, Muslims, felons, church ladies, mutually exclusive ethnic lobbies, etc. But it doesn't matter. Like the Trump voters, it only matters that they know they are distinct from the other side. And in the last elections, both sides have been voting clearly and consistently against each other.

    Since the old days of north against south, or slave against free, or east against west, the political map has changed. It has settled into a new equilibrium. There are many ways one could characterize it: interior against coasts, self-reliant against interdependent, productive against parasitical, liberty against tyranny, deplorables against elite. But the labels don't matter. What matters is that everyone knows which side they are on. And at this point, I'd say everyone who cares does. And if they are not comfortable with it, they are probably already planning their move.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  154. @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    Maybe not to you, but the last two national polls revealed a very clear and consistent distinction between people with two different visions of the political future.
     
    On the Right there is nothing that even resembles a clear and coherent vision of the political future. Even on the far Right (I use that term to embrace the dissident right and various other groups including the MAGA Hat Brigade) there is nothing that even resembles a clear and coherent vision of the political future.

    There are far rightists who are rabid free-marketeers and others whose economic ideas are almost socialist. There are far rightists who are obsessed with the evils of abortion and others who see abortion as a good thing on eugenic grounds. There are far rightists who are rabidly anti-war and anti-imperialist and others who are just as rabidly pro-war and pro-imperialist. There are far rightists who are extreme anti-semites and there are others (especially among the MAGAtards) who are very Zionist. There are far rightists who are extremely socially conservative and others who are social libertarians.

    There are far rightists who want secession and others who bitterly oppose it.

    There are far rightists who have vaguely coherent political views and others who are hysterical crazies obsessed with lunatic conspiracy theories.

    On the far right there are dozens of mutually incompatible visions of the political future. The only thing that unites the far right is that they are angry and disillusioned.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Rereading what I wrote, I see I didn’t write that clearly enough.

    No political coalition has ever had a clear and consistent vision of the political future.

    No political coalition has ever needed a clear and consistent vision of the political future.

    What every political coalition has is a clear and consistent distinction compared to its opponents. A coalition need not make sense internally. It need only be distinct externally.

    The Left is also politically incompatible: Wall Street, communists, bourgeois bohemians, Jews, blacks, Muslims, felons, church ladies, mutually exclusive ethnic lobbies, etc. But it doesn’t matter. Like the Trump voters, it only matters that they know they are distinct from the other side. And in the last elections, both sides have been voting clearly and consistently against each other.

    Since the old days of north against south, or slave against free, or east against west, the political map has changed. It has settled into a new equilibrium. There are many ways one could characterize it: interior against coasts, self-reliant against interdependent, productive against parasitical, liberty against tyranny, deplorables against elite. But the labels don’t matter. What matters is that everyone knows which side they are on. And at this point, I’d say everyone who cares does. And if they are not comfortable with it, they are probably already planning their move.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    But the labels don’t matter. What matters is that everyone knows which side they are on.
     
    I'm sceptical. The noisy extremists on both sides know which side they're on.

    You also have to consider that a political coalition that is aiming at secession does need to have a clear idea of how that secession is going to work and where the boundaries are to be drawn. If they don't even know whether they want the divides to be by region, by state or by county and if they don't know how many new nation states they want to form then they won't get very far.

    The Scots who want independence know exactly what they want. The Catalans know exactly what they want. The Quebecois knew exactly what they wanted.

    It doesn't really matter. All this secession stuff is just an incoherent venting of frustrations combined with a lot of LARPing and a lot of magical thinking.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Almost Missouri

  155. @Anita Patel
    The big problem with dissolution even if it could be done amicably and equitably is that the power mad would no longer have a vehicle with which to achieve their perverted dreams of world hegemony. We're all in that game whether we want to be or not and no one will be allowed out from underneath the accompanying crushing debt and tax burden. Though history tells us that all empires ultimately collapse or are destroyed due to military adventuring each empire always believes they will disprove this rule. Hasn't happened yet.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Rahan, @Audacious Epigone

    Another way to look at it, though, is that the power mad will have less opposition. Smaller pond, but fewer fish to compete against as well.

  156. @JL
    @Audacious Epigone

    Millions of Soviet boomers from Dushanbe to Moscow would beg to differ. But it's not relevant to the point I was making anyway, which is that any secession would likely take its price in blood and short term treasure. Just because not many people cared about the wars in the FSU doesn't mean they didn't happen.

    FTR, I'm all for a breakup of the US. I might tell myself it's because of the welfare of its inhabitants, but really it's because I am sick of US hegemony and want it ended any which way possible. I don't care how people in the US live, my problem is when they tell people beyond their borders how they must live.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    It’s even worse when they’re telling people within their borders how to live. It’s why we want out!

  157. @Magic Dirt Resident

    the greatest resistance to the idea of political dissolution comes from Democrats in Redland and to a lesser extent Republicans in Blueistan. That is a tougher problem. These people don’t want to be left to twist in the wind.
     
    Why stop at five regions? This problem could be partly alleviated by the further splintering of the rump states. I foresee the old HRE/Hanseatic system of Free cities making a comeback by end of century. DC, NYC, Toronto, LA, Chicago, Miami etc would all be great candidates for this.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    The doge of DC!

  158. @Almost Missouri
    @dfordoom

    Rereading what I wrote, I see I didn't write that clearly enough.

    No political coalition has ever had a clear and consistent vision of the political future.

    No political coalition has ever needed a clear and consistent vision of the political future.

    What every political coalition has is a clear and consistent distinction compared to its opponents. A coalition need not make sense internally. It need only be distinct externally.

    The Left is also politically incompatible: Wall Street, communists, bourgeois bohemians, Jews, blacks, Muslims, felons, church ladies, mutually exclusive ethnic lobbies, etc. But it doesn't matter. Like the Trump voters, it only matters that they know they are distinct from the other side. And in the last elections, both sides have been voting clearly and consistently against each other.

    Since the old days of north against south, or slave against free, or east against west, the political map has changed. It has settled into a new equilibrium. There are many ways one could characterize it: interior against coasts, self-reliant against interdependent, productive against parasitical, liberty against tyranny, deplorables against elite. But the labels don't matter. What matters is that everyone knows which side they are on. And at this point, I'd say everyone who cares does. And if they are not comfortable with it, they are probably already planning their move.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    But the labels don’t matter. What matters is that everyone knows which side they are on.

    I’m sceptical. The noisy extremists on both sides know which side they’re on.

    You also have to consider that a political coalition that is aiming at secession does need to have a clear idea of how that secession is going to work and where the boundaries are to be drawn. If they don’t even know whether they want the divides to be by region, by state or by county and if they don’t know how many new nation states they want to form then they won’t get very far.

    The Scots who want independence know exactly what they want. The Catalans know exactly what they want. The Quebecois knew exactly what they wanted.

    It doesn’t really matter. All this secession stuff is just an incoherent venting of frustrations combined with a lot of LARPing and a lot of magical thinking.

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    @dfordoom


    The noisy extremists ...
     
    Who? If the extremists are so noisy, do they have names?

    ... on both sides know which side they’re on.
     
    (I'll take no offense if you give the name V. K., but a reason would need to go with the name.)

    If the definition of extreme is, disagrees with @dfordoom, that's not too persuasive. If the definition is, disagrees with most people according to @dfordoom, well ... I suspect that you see the point at which I am driving.

    Your argument relies too much on circular definitions and appeals to ridicule in my opinion.

    , @Almost Missouri
    @dfordoom


    I’m sceptical. The noisy extremists on both sides know which side they’re on.
     
    If you haven't noticed, "extremists" are suddenly plentiful. According to the regime that just ascended to power behind barbed wire and 20,000 troops, about half the country are "extremists".

    You also have to consider that a political coalition that is aiming at secession does need to have a clear idea of how that secession is going to work and where the boundaries are to be drawn. If they don’t even know whether they want the divides to be by region, by state or by county and if they don’t know how many new nation states they want to form then they won’t get very far.

    The Scots who want independence know exactly what they want. The Catalans know exactly what they want. The Quebecois knew exactly what they wanted.
     
    History says otherwise.

    Tennessee and Florida didn't have much in common, but they both knew they didn't like being bossed around by know-it-all Yankees.

    I happened to have known a bunch of Quebecois and talked secession with them in the run up to the vote that nearly split Canada. Their reasons for wanting secession were remarkably vague and contradictory. The only thing they all agreed on was they hated knuckling under to the f-ckin' Anglos. (Incidentally, the reason they lost that vote is because the Anglo-dominated establishment had already started mass immigrating Middle Easterners into Quebec. Those people didn't cross the ocean to get stuck in someone else's ethnic enclave, so they all voted against secession. Yet another reason the Establishment loooves mass immigration.)

    And finally, there was no master vision guiding the breakaway republics from the former Soviet Union, the largest secession of the last half century (and the only one of a similar scale to the US). They all seceded in different ways for different reasons. The only unifying theme was to get away from the Soviet implosion as fast as they could.

    It doesn’t really matter.
     
    I agree, but for a different—almost opposite—reason. Secession won't come from electoral politics. Secession will come from a currency collapse or other exogenous shock. So it won't be the product of electioneering. It will be the product of events.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  159. @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    But the labels don’t matter. What matters is that everyone knows which side they are on.
     
    I'm sceptical. The noisy extremists on both sides know which side they're on.

    You also have to consider that a political coalition that is aiming at secession does need to have a clear idea of how that secession is going to work and where the boundaries are to be drawn. If they don't even know whether they want the divides to be by region, by state or by county and if they don't know how many new nation states they want to form then they won't get very far.

    The Scots who want independence know exactly what they want. The Catalans know exactly what they want. The Quebecois knew exactly what they wanted.

    It doesn't really matter. All this secession stuff is just an incoherent venting of frustrations combined with a lot of LARPing and a lot of magical thinking.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Almost Missouri

    The noisy extremists …

    Who? If the extremists are so noisy, do they have names?

    … on both sides know which side they’re on.

    (I’ll take no offense if you give the name V. K., but a reason would need to go with the name.)

    If the definition of extreme is, disagrees with , that’s not too persuasive. If the definition is, disagrees with most people according to , well … I suspect that you see the point at which I am driving.

    Your argument relies too much on circular definitions and appeals to ridicule in my opinion.

  160. @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    But the labels don’t matter. What matters is that everyone knows which side they are on.
     
    I'm sceptical. The noisy extremists on both sides know which side they're on.

    You also have to consider that a political coalition that is aiming at secession does need to have a clear idea of how that secession is going to work and where the boundaries are to be drawn. If they don't even know whether they want the divides to be by region, by state or by county and if they don't know how many new nation states they want to form then they won't get very far.

    The Scots who want independence know exactly what they want. The Catalans know exactly what they want. The Quebecois knew exactly what they wanted.

    It doesn't really matter. All this secession stuff is just an incoherent venting of frustrations combined with a lot of LARPing and a lot of magical thinking.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Almost Missouri

    I’m sceptical. The noisy extremists on both sides know which side they’re on.

    If you haven’t noticed, “extremists” are suddenly plentiful. According to the regime that just ascended to power behind barbed wire and 20,000 troops, about half the country are “extremists”.

    You also have to consider that a political coalition that is aiming at secession does need to have a clear idea of how that secession is going to work and where the boundaries are to be drawn. If they don’t even know whether they want the divides to be by region, by state or by county and if they don’t know how many new nation states they want to form then they won’t get very far.

    The Scots who want independence know exactly what they want. The Catalans know exactly what they want. The Quebecois knew exactly what they wanted.

    History says otherwise.

    Tennessee and Florida didn’t have much in common, but they both knew they didn’t like being bossed around by know-it-all Yankees.

    I happened to have known a bunch of Quebecois and talked secession with them in the run up to the vote that nearly split Canada. Their reasons for wanting secession were remarkably vague and contradictory. The only thing they all agreed on was they hated knuckling under to the f-ckin’ Anglos. (Incidentally, the reason they lost that vote is because the Anglo-dominated establishment had already started mass immigrating Middle Easterners into Quebec. Those people didn’t cross the ocean to get stuck in someone else’s ethnic enclave, so they all voted against secession. Yet another reason the Establishment loooves mass immigration.)

    And finally, there was no master vision guiding the breakaway republics from the former Soviet Union, the largest secession of the last half century (and the only one of a similar scale to the US). They all seceded in different ways for different reasons. The only unifying theme was to get away from the Soviet implosion as fast as they could.

    It doesn’t really matter.

    I agree, but for a different—almost opposite—reason. Secession won’t come from electoral politics. Secession will come from a currency collapse or other exogenous shock. So it won’t be the product of electioneering. It will be the product of events.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    I agree, but for a different—almost opposite—reason. Secession won’t come from electoral politics. Secession will come from a currency collapse or other exogenous shock. So it won’t be the product of electioneering. It will be the product of events.
     
    If it ever does happen then yes, that's the way it will happen. It will happen after the US has collapsed into chaos. And if the US collapses into chaos you'll have much bigger problems to worry about than secession. Things like putting food on the table.
  161. @Almost Missouri
    @dfordoom


    I’m sceptical. The noisy extremists on both sides know which side they’re on.
     
    If you haven't noticed, "extremists" are suddenly plentiful. According to the regime that just ascended to power behind barbed wire and 20,000 troops, about half the country are "extremists".

    You also have to consider that a political coalition that is aiming at secession does need to have a clear idea of how that secession is going to work and where the boundaries are to be drawn. If they don’t even know whether they want the divides to be by region, by state or by county and if they don’t know how many new nation states they want to form then they won’t get very far.

    The Scots who want independence know exactly what they want. The Catalans know exactly what they want. The Quebecois knew exactly what they wanted.
     
    History says otherwise.

    Tennessee and Florida didn't have much in common, but they both knew they didn't like being bossed around by know-it-all Yankees.

    I happened to have known a bunch of Quebecois and talked secession with them in the run up to the vote that nearly split Canada. Their reasons for wanting secession were remarkably vague and contradictory. The only thing they all agreed on was they hated knuckling under to the f-ckin' Anglos. (Incidentally, the reason they lost that vote is because the Anglo-dominated establishment had already started mass immigrating Middle Easterners into Quebec. Those people didn't cross the ocean to get stuck in someone else's ethnic enclave, so they all voted against secession. Yet another reason the Establishment loooves mass immigration.)

    And finally, there was no master vision guiding the breakaway republics from the former Soviet Union, the largest secession of the last half century (and the only one of a similar scale to the US). They all seceded in different ways for different reasons. The only unifying theme was to get away from the Soviet implosion as fast as they could.

    It doesn’t really matter.
     
    I agree, but for a different—almost opposite—reason. Secession won't come from electoral politics. Secession will come from a currency collapse or other exogenous shock. So it won't be the product of electioneering. It will be the product of events.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    I agree, but for a different—almost opposite—reason. Secession won’t come from electoral politics. Secession will come from a currency collapse or other exogenous shock. So it won’t be the product of electioneering. It will be the product of events.

    If it ever does happen then yes, that’s the way it will happen. It will happen after the US has collapsed into chaos. And if the US collapses into chaos you’ll have much bigger problems to worry about than secession. Things like putting food on the table.

  162. @RoatanBill
    @V. K. Ovelund

    On the other hand, I propose no such maneuver.

    Didn't you advocate using existing organizations to get the US out of its pickle? Which organizations would that be besides the super fiat producers like the World bank, BIS, IMF, etc?

    Inflation is wretched, but deflation is worse.

    Stop listening to those fraud economists. With no one trying to tweak economic policy (Fed, Regulations, Fractional Reserve lending, etc), you would generally get stable prices, neither inflation nor deflation. Monetary inflation and deflation are always and everywhere central bank initiated events. Price inflation and deflation is a market reaction where everyone votes with their wallet for goods and service. I'd take that any day over the command economy those knucklehead economists propose.

    The problem in the late 1800's, early 1900's was banks creating their own currency backed by little to nothing. The Fed wanted to be the only one to conjure currency out of thin air and that's what we got. The Fed engineered the great depression along with the banks. They're using the same playbook right now, bankrupting the little guy while giving away billions to their buddies to buy up everything at bargain basement prices. That's exactly what they did before.

    there are too many dollars abroad and not enough goods and services here in the United States to redeem those dollars

    That is incorrect. When too many dollars chase too few goods and services prices rise to soak up the excess. That leads to hyperinflation eventually.

    the U.S. is addicted to its trade deficit

    That's one way to look at it. Dig down and the real culprit is the dollar's reserve currency status that is dwindling rapidly. When fools accept pieces of paper for washing machines, computers, etc, sooner or later that scam stops. It's on its way to stopping at present. Nothing is going to do a Lazarus act on the Dollar. It's dead but hasn't fallen down completely yet.

    China and the rest of the world are forming new alliances right now to continue to bypass the Dollar. It's in no ones best interests to crater the Dollar, but it's like musical chairs. Someone some day is going to be holding green toilet paper.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Audacious Epigone

    Price inflation and deflation is a market reaction where everyone votes with their wallet for goods and service.

    Sometimes consumer prices decrease while the supply and quality of the consumption item increases–in the case of say smart phones, computers, or televisions. I guess this is the ultimate in deflation–and it’s the essence of an improving material standard of living!

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @Audacious Epigone

    Competition! That's always a factor unless there's some gov't regulation or some other interference that tries to force prices one way or the other. I'll take honest competition to set prices any day.

    Competition is what's missing in the US in terms of the political climate. The Fed Gov is a monopoly that dictates stupidity for the 50 states that have lost their backbone. It's the lack of competition in gov't that has allowed the Fed Gov to trash the American dream for at least the last 50 years. The Fed Gov needs to disappear to allow competition between the states to discover winners and losers which will be determined by people voting with their feet.

  163. @mark green
    @Almost Missouri


    The US’s worst-ever war was the Civil War, which was waged to prevent the South’s legitimate secession.
     
    You are correct. And Lincoln's denial of the Southern states' desire to peacefully secede will not be forgotten by the modern anti-secessionists who will fight tooth-and-nail to preserve our dysfunctional 'union'.

    What's worse, anti-secessionists are (I suspect) greater in number and far far greater in wealth/influence than those of us who want to see the militarized behemoth otherwise known as the USA cut down to size.

    You can also bet that the comfortable, the rich, the connected, as well as the entire political establishment will generally resist any attempt to break up the USA.

    Despite our nation's growing flaws, the mega-rich as well as our ruling establishment still pretty much likes things the way they are. Plus, with secession, there would be huge challenges involving our monetary system--not to mention our military establishment.

    Some questions:

    Would the dollar be the new trans-regional currency?

    If so, which region would be in charge of printing dollars?

    And what about the military? Would all the new nations which emerge from the carcass of the former USA have their own separate armies?--and nuclear weapons, too?

    These are not unimportant issues.

    Breaking up the USA would not likely be permitted by the SCOTUS unless many many conditions were met. The legal hurdles would be exhausting. Existing institutions such as the courts as well as the military would almost certainly resist lawful secession.

    With these facts in mind, the most practical way to achieve greater autonomy and personal independence would be to shrink the federal government by 50% and reduce federal taxes by a similar figure.

    This strategy would allow the USA would endure but allow the next step: namely the re-empowerment of the various 'united' states.

    Each state would become semi-autonomous. There should also be a mechanism within each state to override any egregious, liberty-denying decision imposed by the SCOTUS over the past century, not to mention most of the freedom-killing 'civil rights' legislation passed since WWII.

    Since abolishing the USA would be next to impossible, reinvigorating 'States Rights' is the most efficient and practical way to reclaim lost liberty.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Wency, @Audacious Epigone

    The rhetorical counter to the allusion to the internecine war in the 1860s is to note that the United States was born through secession. Political dissolution is as American as 1776.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    The rhetorical counter to the allusion to the internecine war in the 1860s is to note that the United States was born through secession. Political dissolution is as American as 1776.
     
    Hasn't the US gradually evolved towards ever more centralisation? With the central government becoming ever more intolerant of any moves towards secession?

    And the trend since 1776 has been towards the US absorbing and annexing more territory, rather than towards dissolution.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

  164. @A123
    @RoatanBill


    If the Chinese Central Bank accepts counterfeit bars, then they aren’t paying attention. A relatively simple experiment using volume and weight can quickly catch either an impure bar or a counterfeit one. It’s not rocket surgery.
     
    Correct. Large amounts of easily detected fraud is taking place. As a practical matter this means that the borrower, lender, and regulator are co-collaborators enabling the criminal activity. Given that CCP Elites control all three, this is not a surprise.

    I pay storage costs for physical and it’s really not that bad. It’s not something I worry about.
     
    Personal storage is fairly straightforward. Industrial/Banking storage needs to be insured, audited, etc. It is much more expensive than holding computer records.

    Precious metals have been a viable money for thousands of years. I say we go back to sound money and stop listening to the fraud economists and banksters.
     
    A $1,000,000 FedWire costs the bank 0.40-0.80¢. How much does it cost to physically ship $1,000,000 of precious metals? How long does it take?

    Allowing electronic transfer of ownership of a "vault asset" opens the door to the creation of "fiat ounces" just like " fiat USD/EUR/RMB".

    They could just as well barter Lithium, oil, tankers of LNG, etc
     
    Barter is non-standardized and therefore includes extra labor & expense on every transaction. Fiat currencies are always standard and consistent. This makes each transaction less expensive and more reliable.
    _____

    I understand why you dislike fiat currencies. However, 99%+ of transactions are handled via fiat currencies (including digital). The near total elimination of barter points at the inherent inefficiencies of the method.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @RoatanBill, @Audacious Epigone

    A $1,000,000 FedWire costs the bank 0.40-0.80¢. How much does it cost to physically ship $1,000,000 of precious metals? How long does it take?

    This can easily be done electronically. The only reason it is not viable now is because of undue financial regulations. The tech is there to do it for virtually nothing.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Audacious Epigone



    A $1,000,000 FedWire costs the bank 0.40-0.80¢. How much does it cost to physically ship $1,000,000 of precious metals? How long does it take?
     
    This can easily be done electronically. The only reason it is not viable now is because of undue financial regulations. The tech is there to do it for virtually nothing.
     
    If there are a small number of MegaBank repositories tracking "eGold" ounces against their stock. Yes, that is much less expensive than physical shipments.

    However, one of the factors that makes physical metals an attractive option is eliminating the need to trust Globalists MegaBanks. What happens when one of these MegaRepositories discovers that part of their stock consists of tungsten core fake bars?

    The lower cost of "eGold" transactions brings risk that is difficult (or impossible) for an individual to control.
    ______

    "Fiat vs. Hard" does not eliminate Elite domination & manipulation of the financial system. As soon as something goes wrong and depositors cannot change their "eGold" back into physical gold.... The "eGold" standard starts resembling a fiat currency.

    PEACE 😇
  165. @Audacious Epigone
    @RoatanBill

    Price inflation and deflation is a market reaction where everyone votes with their wallet for goods and service.

    Sometimes consumer prices decrease while the supply and quality of the consumption item increases--in the case of say smart phones, computers, or televisions. I guess this is the ultimate in deflation--and it's the essence of an improving material standard of living!

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    Competition! That’s always a factor unless there’s some gov’t regulation or some other interference that tries to force prices one way or the other. I’ll take honest competition to set prices any day.

    Competition is what’s missing in the US in terms of the political climate. The Fed Gov is a monopoly that dictates stupidity for the 50 states that have lost their backbone. It’s the lack of competition in gov’t that has allowed the Fed Gov to trash the American dream for at least the last 50 years. The Fed Gov needs to disappear to allow competition between the states to discover winners and losers which will be determined by people voting with their feet.

  166. @Audacious Epigone
    @A123

    A $1,000,000 FedWire costs the bank 0.40-0.80¢. How much does it cost to physically ship $1,000,000 of precious metals? How long does it take?

    This can easily be done electronically. The only reason it is not viable now is because of undue financial regulations. The tech is there to do it for virtually nothing.

    Replies: @A123

    A $1,000,000 FedWire costs the bank 0.40-0.80¢. How much does it cost to physically ship $1,000,000 of precious metals? How long does it take?

    This can easily be done electronically. The only reason it is not viable now is because of undue financial regulations. The tech is there to do it for virtually nothing.

    If there are a small number of MegaBank repositories tracking “eGold” ounces against their stock. Yes, that is much less expensive than physical shipments.

    However, one of the factors that makes physical metals an attractive option is eliminating the need to trust Globalists MegaBanks. What happens when one of these MegaRepositories discovers that part of their stock consists of tungsten core fake bars?

    The lower cost of “eGold” transactions brings risk that is difficult (or impossible) for an individual to control.
    ______

    “Fiat vs. Hard” does not eliminate Elite domination & manipulation of the financial system. As soon as something goes wrong and depositors cannot change their “eGold” back into physical gold…. The “eGold” standard starts resembling a fiat currency.

    PEACE 😇

  167. @Dr. Doom
    The Federales won't let their meal tickets go.
    They already are underwater in enough debt to sink them.

    They cannot exist without you suckers paying the bills.
    You have to eliminate the Federales to get back your freedom.

    The Confederates made a huge mistake.
    They should have burned down Washington when they had the chance.

    Do not repeat their mistakes.
    You'll be called terrorists just for not supporting the Federales and their foreign masters.

    You have to eliminate the Federales in order to free yourselves.
    There is no other course.

    You can start by unplugging from them as much as possible.
    Barter. Trade amongst yourselves. Dump the petrodollar.

    Crush the monkey on your back by starving it out.
    Create your own microeconomy without the taxable petrodollar.

    When the riots start,the War begins.
    Form into groups. Your skin is your uniform.

    The FEDGOV is already bankrupt. You are the only ones keeping it going.
    You have to unplug from the system before it burns down or you will go down with it...

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Audacious Epigone

    Eliminate the position of power the federales have, presumably. Please respect the rules about not advocating illegal activity.

  168. @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    Presently, the highest costs and extreme-est risks look to be in maintaining the status quo.
     
    Take a look at what happened in Yugoslavia.

    Dissident rightists wildly exaggerate just how bad the status quo is. When it comes to the crunch most people (quite sensibly) will opt for the status quo. Most people do not see the status quo the way dissident rightists see it.

    The supposed support for secession is, as another commenter pointed out, just people venting their frustrations. Once the costs and the risks are pointed out to them they will very quickly lose all interest in secession.

    It's like all those liberals who were going to move to Canada if George W. Bush won. How many actually moved to Canada? Virtually none. They were just venting.

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Almost Missouri, @Audacious Epigone

    We’ve had good exchanges on this issue over the last couple of years. One thing I concede is that the prospect of political dissolution probably only becomes realistic with a real economic crisis–not just a stock market recession–something like the destruction of the US dollar as the global reserve currency.

    On the other hand, our rulers look like that’s what they’re trying to do. This year it’s looking like federal will spending will be $10 trillion while taxation revenue will be $3.5 trillion. That will be the second year in a row where less than half of total government expenditures are collected via tax revenue, something unprecedented in American history.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    One thing I concede is that the prospect of political dissolution probably only becomes realistic with a real economic crisis–not just a stock market recession–something like the destruction of the US dollar as the global reserve currency.

    On the other hand, our rulers look like that’s what they’re trying to do.
     
    A major economic crisis is possible of course. People have been predicting such a thing for years. It might happen eventually.

    A disastrous war is also a possibility. Could the US start a war that might have more disastrous consequences than the Vietnam War? It's possible. I don't discount the possibility of a nuclear war. A nuclear war is far more likely today than it ever was during the first Cold War. If there is a nuclear war it will be started by the US and there seem to be plenty of people in the foreign policy establishment who are willing to risk nuclear war.
  169. @dfordoom
    @Almost Missouri


    Nevertheless, plenty of secessions have happened without a socio-economic catastrophe: Slovakia from Czechoslovakia, Norway from union with Sweden, Scotland reclaiming its parliament through the most tedious and bourgeois means. Heck, Quebec came within a percentage point of seceding from Canada just a few years ago during peace and prosperity.
     
    Those were all cases where there were clear-cut ethnic/cultural/linguistic divides and/or pre-existing national identities. And they were cases were secession could be achieved without any major arguments about where the new borders were going to be drawn. There was no need for any major population transfers.

    In the US there are no clear-cut ethnic/cultural divides. And no easy way of determining where the new borders are to be drawn.

    Unfortunately the US situation is closer to Yugoslavia before it broke up (or India prior to Partition), with ethnicities hopelessly mixed up. It would require massive population transfers (a nice term for ethnic cleansing). The breaking up of Yugoslavia and the Partition of India both ended in bloodbaths.

    Secession in the US would require population transfers on an even bigger scale, with presumably the result being an even bigger bloodbath.

    And pro-secessionists in the US are not even clear about what they actually want. Some want the country divided on racial/ethnic lines and some want it divided on ideological lines. If you divide the country on racial/ethnic lines you'll still have bitter ideological divides. If you divide the country on ideological lines you'll still have bitter racial/ethnic divides.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Audacious Epigone

    Process matters for public perception. If independence comes through a statewide proposition or as a successful gubernatorial campaign (or campaigns), crushing it militarily will revolt large swaths of the American population. If it’s some sort of militia autonomous declaration, like CHAZ writ large, it won’t survive.

  170. @dfordoom
    @V. K. Ovelund



    Dissident rightists wildly exaggerate just how bad the status quo is.
     
    Who is the wilder exaggerator? They, or the man you see in the mirror?
     
    I'm not suggesting that the status quo is either favourable or healthy. What I am suggesting is that it's not bad enough to justify the risks involved in a "Let's just smash the system" approach.

    For centuries social revolutionaries have been claiming that the status quo is so bad that smashing the system is the only answer. The usual result has been a bloodbath followed by the imposition of a new regime that is often just as bad if not worse than the status quo that was overthrown.

    "Meet the new boss
    Same as the old boss"

    Replies: @V. K. Ovelund, @Audacious Epigone

    This is mediated by generational differences though. The modal zoomer in the West is coming out of higher education with a degree of dubious utility, $50k in debt, looking at starter houses costing well north of a quarter of a million dollars, with a job where he earns $20 an hour if he’s lucky. He’s screwed and he senses it. That’s why support for political violence, and desperation more generally, is so much higher among younger generations than the older ones.

  171. @Audacious Epigone
    @mark green

    The rhetorical counter to the allusion to the internecine war in the 1860s is to note that the United States was born through secession. Political dissolution is as American as 1776.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    The rhetorical counter to the allusion to the internecine war in the 1860s is to note that the United States was born through secession. Political dissolution is as American as 1776.

    Hasn’t the US gradually evolved towards ever more centralisation? With the central government becoming ever more intolerant of any moves towards secession?

    And the trend since 1776 has been towards the US absorbing and annexing more territory, rather than towards dissolution.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    Agree, it's rhetorical more than anything else.

  172. @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    The rhetorical counter to the allusion to the internecine war in the 1860s is to note that the United States was born through secession. Political dissolution is as American as 1776.
     
    Hasn't the US gradually evolved towards ever more centralisation? With the central government becoming ever more intolerant of any moves towards secession?

    And the trend since 1776 has been towards the US absorbing and annexing more territory, rather than towards dissolution.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Agree, it’s rhetorical more than anything else.

  173. @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    We've had good exchanges on this issue over the last couple of years. One thing I concede is that the prospect of political dissolution probably only becomes realistic with a real economic crisis--not just a stock market recession--something like the destruction of the US dollar as the global reserve currency.

    On the other hand, our rulers look like that's what they're trying to do. This year it's looking like federal will spending will be $10 trillion while taxation revenue will be $3.5 trillion. That will be the second year in a row where less than half of total government expenditures are collected via tax revenue, something unprecedented in American history.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    One thing I concede is that the prospect of political dissolution probably only becomes realistic with a real economic crisis–not just a stock market recession–something like the destruction of the US dollar as the global reserve currency.

    On the other hand, our rulers look like that’s what they’re trying to do.

    A major economic crisis is possible of course. People have been predicting such a thing for years. It might happen eventually.

    A disastrous war is also a possibility. Could the US start a war that might have more disastrous consequences than the Vietnam War? It’s possible. I don’t discount the possibility of a nuclear war. A nuclear war is far more likely today than it ever was during the first Cold War. If there is a nuclear war it will be started by the US and there seem to be plenty of people in the foreign policy establishment who are willing to risk nuclear war.

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