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When the question was posed a couple of weeks ago, 40% of Americans suspected we will never know the true outcome of the 2020 presidential election. The partisan divide wasn’t, with 37% of Democrats, 42% of independents, and 40% of Republicans feeling that way.

Now that the election has come and is in the process of being gone, the share of the population believing the real outcome of the election will never be known remains virtually unchanged at 41%. The partisan distribution, though, has changed considerably:

The vast majority of Republicans perceive the election to have been stolen and the true outcome indecipherable. The power structure is telling them to pound sand, assuring their distrust grows greater still over time. And if the GOP holds the Georgia senate seats in January’s runoff election? Democrats will have no faith in those results, either.

What happens to a democratic system when nobody trusts the results? It doesn’t tend to remain a democratic system for long. It’s time for peaceful separation on account of irreconcilable differences. If we don’t do it with relative amicability while we still can, we’re going to find ourselves forced by circumstances to go through it in an environment of hot animosity.

 
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  1. dfordoom says: • Website

    The partisan distribution, though, has changed considerably:

    I’m amazed. Of course had the election gone the other way those results would have been reversed.

    Let’s be brutally honest. Democrats think the election was free and fair because their guy won. Republicans think the election was rigged because their guy lost. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have the slightest interest in actual evidence. Neither side was ever going to accept the result had it gone against them.

    The Democrats in this case are motivated by the joy of crushing their enemies, seeing them driven before them and hearing the lamentations of their women. Republicans are motivated by butt-hurt.

    • Disagree: GazaPlanet
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Bragadocious
    , @MarkU
  2. Source : https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/11/james-howard-kunstler/the-worm-in-the-machine/

    The worm in the machine, perhaps: a simple algorithm (i.e., set of coded instructions) embedded in the Dominion vote tabulation software — product of a company, to remind you, partially owned by Senator Feinstein’s husband, Richard C. Blum, and represented by lobbyist Nadeam Elshami, Nancy Pelosi’s former chief of staff. It was Mr. Elshami’s mission to visit state legislators around the country and persuade them to adopt (that is, purchase) the Dominion system. The algorithm appears to subtract votes from one candidate and add them to the other candidate. It’s a feature, not a bug.

    The Dems own the machines. Would they cheat?

  3. Twinkie says:

    What happens to a democratic system when nobody trusts the results? It doesn’t tend to remain a democratic system for long. It’s time for peaceful separation on account of irreconcilable differences. If we don’t do it with relative amicability while we still can, we’re going to find ourselves forced by circumstances to go through it in an environment of hot animosity.

    Agreed!

    I don’t know whether it will be civil war or peaceful separation, but one thing is more likely even if neither comes to fruition – increase in political violence.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  4. Twinkie says:
    @dfordoom

    Let’s be brutally honest. Democrats think the election was free and fair because their guy won. Republicans think the election was rigged because their guy lost. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have the slightest interest in actual evidence.

    That’s not brutal honesty. That’s rather obvious. However, if Biden had beaten Trump on election night the way Trump beat Hillary in 2016, the Republican grumbling about voter fraud would have been very muted. So it isn’t just sour grapes – lots of odd and weird things happened such as WI voter participation rate skyrocketing to 90% (North Korea level), Biden garnering previously considered highly unlikely levels of late mail-in votes and so forth.

    I’m not one of the people frothing at the mouth about fraud, but even I find some of these occurrences more than a little curious, let alone the delayed timing of the Pfizer announcement, the media suddenly announcing Biden as the winner as soon as projections favored him after crying for days about “counting every vote,” and so forth. And that’s not even factoring in the unprecedented use of mail-in votes (my state went unrestricted mail-in once Dems were in power), the relentless demonization in the media, etc.

    crushing their enemies, seeing them driven before them and hearing the lamentations of their women.

    How coincidental – I just quoted that line from Conan the Barbarian (in turn a quote of Genghis Khan) only a couple of days ago on Unz.

    • Agree: Charlotte
    • Thanks: ThisIsAnon153Replying
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @Jake10
  5. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Twinkie

    That’s not brutal honesty. That’s rather obvious. However, if Biden had beaten Trump on election night the way Trump beat Hillary in 2016, the Republican grumbling about voter fraud would have been very muted.

    There were Trump supporters grumbling about voter fraud before the election. Which makes me suspicious that many had no intention of accepting a result that went against them.

    Nobody likes losing. That’s just human nature. But if supporters of a football team spent the weeks before a big game saying that their team was going to get its collective ass kicked but if it happened it would be because the referee was biased and the game was rigged, and then their team did lose and they started crying about the referee being biased, I’d be inclined to be sceptical of their claims.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Sollipsist
  6. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Twinkie

    I don’t know whether it will be civil war or peaceful separation,

    There are other possibilities. A few months ago I’d have dismissed the idea of a military coup as paranoid nonsense. Now it still seems very unlikely, but more likely than civil war or peaceful separation. I’d rate the chances of a military coup at about 1%, civil war at about 0.1% and peaceful separation at about 0.001%.

    but one thing is more likely even if neither comes to fruition – increase in political violence.

    Probably. Or a crackdown on any kind of dissent that will make people’s eyes water. A crackdown instituted, of course, by the corporate sector.

    What’s the current betting market on how long before Trump is banned by Twitter? Along with Trump supporters.

    A lot depends on whether (or rather when) the GOP establishment abandons Trump and turns against him.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  7. A123 says:

    There is a dystopian period ahead.

    Much of governance depends on cooperation rather than enforcement. Look at the problems created by non-cooperating Blue Sanctuary Cities. Multiply that by a hundred to grasp the problems of Red Resistance States.

    As much as I hope for peace, it looks like the Nazicrats are determined to collapse the nation.

    PEACE 😇

  8. Rosie says:
    @dfordoom

    There were Trump supporters grumbling about voter fraud before the election. Which makes me suspicious that many had no intention of accepting a result that went against them.

    Nobody likes losing. That’s just human nature. But if supporters of a football team spent the weeks before a big game saying that their team was going to get its collective ass kicked but if it happened it would be because the referee was biased and the game was rigged, and then their team did lose and they started crying about the referee being biased, I’d be inclined to be sceptical of their claims.

    Your analogy fails to take account of the facts on the field, Doom. Suppose you knew that all the referees in the game are fans of the opposing team. Moreover, all the camera crews, sportscasters, etc. hated your team and would pull out all the stops to cover up any malfeasance. Now you’re getting closer to the real case at hand.

    • Agree: Charlotte
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  9. Jake10 says:
    @Twinkie

    Where do you get the idea voter participation in Wisconsin was 90%? As far as I can tell about 11-12% more votes were cast than in 2016 and participation is in the low 70’s.

    • Replies: @A123
  10. A123 says:
    @Jake10

    I originally posted this 9 days ago. The turnout is higher now.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    https://www.unz.com/anepigone/preliminary-vote-change-by-state-from-2016-to-2020/#comment-4265303

    The Wisconsin #of votes appears suspicious.

    Turnout jumped from 77.6% to 89.1% of Registered Voters.

    A couple of details that may be throwing people off:
    — Some of the stories incorrectly show 2016 turnout as 67.6% instead of 77.6%.
    — Wisconsin lost ~150,000 voters between 2016 and 2020. Thus, the constant turnout case would have fewer voters.

    Here is what I have been able to glean from various sources:

    2016
    3.84 MM — Registered
    2.98 MM — Voted
    77.6% — Turnout

    2020
    3.69 MM — Registered
    3.29 MM — Voted
    89.1% — Turnout

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  11. Hard to believe that compared to us our next door neighbor to the south is an exemplar of clean elections, fiscal rectitude, and social cohesion.

  12. PMcD says:

    Distrust in democracy? Huh, just like in multiracial Latin America.

    In Guatemala, Honduras, and Paraguay, for example, wealthy elites have repeatedly shown that they will do whatever it takes to maintain control. Unsurprisingly, given this track record, 79 percent of Latin Americans now believe that their governments primarily serve the wealthy elite, a percentage that has been steadily increasing in recent years. Confidence in democracy has fallen to historic lows.

    Oligarchical power is hardly unique to Latin America. According to Robert Michels, a sociologist who developed a theory known as the iron law of oligarchy, such power dynamics are inevitable. Indeed, some argue that the United States itself barely qualifies as a democracy.

    Racial Politics in Latin America
    What Race in Another America Tells Us About Our Destiny
    https://www.unz.com/article/racial-politics-in-latin-america/

  13. neutral says:

    What does it matter what system of government you have, if you have a group of people that are out to destroy you, you don’t accept it. If you were serious about the fact that the Democrat party is the evil party you should be treating them as evil.

  14. Dr. Doom says:

    Civil War II has already started. Its about to heat up.

    The Tribe is about to go FULL RETARD Anti-White.

    This should make Weimar 2.0 implode.

    You only need 100 to 200 thousand combatants this time.

    A revolution here would be quick and easy I’d expect.

    The minorities are all on the dole. The combatants have the hearts and minds of Red States.

    Just the non cooperation of Red States would make Weimar 2.0 COLLAPSE.

    The combatants will finish the Central Banksters and CRUSH the Tribe.

  15. Anon[240] • Disclaimer says:

    Graham Greene wrote that every person’s life has a turning point; a point of no return. I believe this also applies to cultures. To me this occurred when President Trump mused that Haiti is not Norway, and Norway would be the better place to live. Liberals would not acknowledge this; “Well, um, yuh know, hard to say. We could have a conversation about that.” At that moment, I knew that the division is hopeless. (I know that you are factually oriented, plus which, as Columbo would say, this is a quant blog, so I will report that on the Human Development Index of the united nations, Norway is number 1, and Haiti is number 169.)

    • Agree: Mark G.
  16. @dfordoom

    Plus, there were all those media stories about what do to when/if he refused to accept the results or concede defeat, and all of those models and scenarios drawn up months in advance by influential think tanks…

    …oh wait, that was the OTHER side. So I guess there’s nothing especially suspicious about that?

  17. @dfordoom

    Let’s be brutally honest. Democrats think the election was free and fair because their guy won. Republicans think the election was rigged because their guy lost.

    No, it’s because Trump was comfortably ahead at 11 p.m. on Tuesday night in most or all of the swing states, and then bundles of mail-in votes arrived, and all of a sudden he was way behind.

    Then you remember the Democrats use of Covid to restrict our rights and engineer an unprecedented mail-in voting scheme which is ripe for fraud.

    Then you factor in Democrats’ rhetoric over the last 4 years calling Trump a fascist nazi dictator which logic tells you would necessitate doing anything to defeat him. Their own rhetoric hangs them.

    Then you add the fact that Democrats lost ground in the House and made no gains in the Senate or in state assemblies nationwide. The voting public was not leaning Democrat nationwide. But we’re to believe Biden kicked Trump’s ass?

    • Agree: GazaPlanet, Justvisiting
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    , @dfordoom
  18. fnn says:

    “Special Rules” in effect for this election:

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund, iffen
  19. @Bragadocious

    These things are all true, but the real reason Republicans think the Democrats committed fraud is because they fundamentally don’t trust them as people. And they shouldn’t. Russiagate, Kavanaugh as rapist, Ukrainian “whistleblower”, Adam Schiff’s every word — all lies. And that’s just the big things from the last four years. Before that, we listened to the political classes and punditry explain why Hillary did nothing wrong and why the Clintn Foundation was on the up and up and all other manner of dishonesty. It’s not one of two things, it’s a pattern going back at least decades. Do you remember the last-minute letter from GWB’s reserve commander that Dan Rather tried to sell to the American public? That was one of the first big wins for the Internet, as the Internet allowed th fraud to be exposed. Or consider that the 2000 Florida recount was taking place just three years after the courts overturned the 1997 Miami mayoral race because of Democrat ballot stuffing. These are just the things that jump into my head. The dishonesty from the political and media classes on the left is widespread and long-standing.

    And it doesn’t stop at the top either. About half the union reps I habe ever had contact with are scumbags. There was an SEIU organizer in a hospital I worked in who would smear co-workers he disliked.

    And so far we are just talking about white people, but once yo u bring in dindu nuffins, Indian and Chinese test-takers, and Middle-Eastern victims of every little thing, you realize that the entire left from top to bottom is just one collection of liars. As Moldbug says, the left and right are not symmetrical. The left are people who just want power and don’t care how it’s come by. Whether consciously or unconsciously, Republicans understand this, which is why they don’t trust the election and didn’t even before it happened.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  20. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosie

    Suppose you knew that all the referees in the game are fans of the opposing team. Moreover, all the camera crews, sportscasters, etc. hated your team and would pull out all the stops to cover up any malfeasance. Now you’re getting closer to the real case at hand.

    I was talking about motivations. The motivation of Trump supporters before the election was shock and anger that Trump looked like losing. Trump supporters had so much invested emotionally in Trump that they could not accept the possibility that he might lose. Therefore they convinced themselves that there was a conspiracy afoot to steal the election. When Trump did in fact lose his supporters saw that as confirmation of their conspiracy theory – he lost therefore the election must have been stolen.

    It’s exactly the same as the motivation of Hillary Clinton supporters after 2016 – they could not accept that she could possibly have lost the election, therefore the Russians must have stolen it from her. In both cases you have shocked and disappointed supporters refusing to consider the possibility that their candidate lost.

    Your analogy fails to take account of the facts on the field, Doom.

    At this stage there aren’t any facts, just wild accusations. And this is politics. Facts don’t matter. All that matters is emotion. Whether any actual facts do come to light is irrelevant – Biden supporters will continue to believe that Biden won fair and square regardless of evidence and Trump supporters will continue to believe that the election was stolen regardless of evidence.

    Evidence is irrelevant when it comes to politics. Politics is not about evidence, it’s about feelings. And this applies to both men and women and to both Left and Right.

    • Replies: @MarkU
  21. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Bragadocious

    No, it’s because Trump was comfortably ahead at 11 p.m. on Tuesday night in most or all of the swing states, and then bundles of mail-in votes arrived, and all of a sudden he was way behind.

    Which is exactly what any reasonable person would have expected. Given that the Democrats encouraged their voters to vote by mail while the Republicans if anything discouraged their voters from doing do then naturally in-person votes were going to favour Trump while mail-in votes were going to favour Biden. Which means that Trump was always going to appear to be doing extremely well on election night and then gradually fade as the mail-in ballots were counted.

    There is nothing inherently sinister or suspicious about the fact that the election played out exactly the way it would have been expected to play out.

  22. A123 says:
    @dfordoom

    What is sinister and obviously corrupt is that vote tallies changed:
    — While election offices were closed
    — 100% in Biden’s favor
     

     
    There is no possible way that this could be legitimate. It is 100% proven that fraud has occurred.

    You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. And, indisputable objective facts show that Trump won.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @martin_2
  23. martin_2 says:
    @A123

    The figures mentioned, 140,000, 200,000, 1,000,000…would it be possible to fill in so many ballot papers in a few hours in the morning? I have no clue what is involved in completing the form but let us say that each form takes 20 seconds to complete. 1,000,000 times 20 seconds is 5556 hours. If there are four hours available, say, then that will require more than 1300 people. That would have to be quite a massive conspiracy. Am I missing something? I ask in the spirit of honest enquiry.

    • Replies: @A123
    , @Reg Cæsar
  24. Rosie says:
    @Chrisnonymous

    The left are people who just want power and don’t care how it’s come by. Whether consciously or unconsciously, Republicans understand this, which is why they don’t trust the election and didn’t even before it happened.

    Absolutely. Republicans also know that Democrats have a justified sense of invulnerability as a result of Leftist control of the media.

  25. A123 says:
    @martin_2

    The DNC appears to have been unprepared for the amount of fraud that was needed.

    Corroborating evidence is the number of ballots that were marked only for Biden with no down ballot selection (e.g. U.S. Senate). The amount of time required to fabricate a fake ballot is much shorter if only one box needs to be checked.

    If I was running an investigation, I would look at the pattern of implement choice used to mark the ballot. If the one-vote returns are 95%+ sharpie while other ballots are a mix of those, other felt tips, various pens, and no doubt a few #2 pencils that would be even more statistical corroboration.

    The DNC fraud is so statistically incongruous, it cannot possibly exist. Here is more detail on the Georgia flaws:

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/11/13/steve-cortes-discusses-the-election-of-statistical-improbabilities-ga-with-95000-biden-only-votes/

    PEACE 😇

  26. It’s time for peaceful separation on account of irreconcilable differences.

    We get everything between the Tappan Zee and Mt Whitney. Except Chicagoland. They can keep that!

  27. @martin_2

    The figures mentioned, 140,000, 200,000, 1,000,000…would it be possible to fill in so many ballot papers in a few hours in the morning?

    Sure. Just push a button. At a terminal at 215 Spadina in Toronto

    “Dark Horse” espresso, indeed!

  28. @dfordoom

    There is nothing inherently sinister or suspicious about the fact that the election played out exactly the way it would have been expected to play out.

    You remind me of the Philly judge who was presented with more than three hundred signed affadavits with specific allegations of voter fraud and concluded–nothing to see here!

    If you don’t want to see something, no-one can force you to do so.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  29. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Justvisiting

    There is nothing inherently sinister or suspicious about the fact that the election played out exactly the way it would have been expected to play out.

    You remind me of the Philly judge who was presented with more than three hundred signed affadavits with specific allegations of voter fraud and concluded–nothing to see here!

    If you don’t want to see something, no-one can force you to do so.

    I have no opinion on whether there was fraud or not. I was merely pointing out the undeniable fact that the election played out exactly the way it would have been expected to play out. The result was entirely plausible. Trump supporters are behaving as if the result was a shock. It wasn’t. Biden was always expected to win. Predictions of a Biden landslide were clearly unrealistic. The most likely result was always a narrow Biden victory.

    The allegations of fraud would be more convincing if the election had produced a surprising result. But it didn’t.

  30. MarkU says:
    @dfordoom

    Let’s be brutally honest. Democrats think the election was free and fair because their guy won. Republicans think the election was rigged because their guy lost. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have the slightest interest in actual evidence. Neither side was ever going to accept the result had it gone against them.

    Sadly true and true in almost all walks of life. Objectivity is now rare, even demonised as a part of ‘white supremacist’ culture.

    https://nypost.com/2019/05/20/richard-carranza-held-doe-white-supremacy-culture-training/

  31. MarkU says:
    @dfordoom

    You were originally saying that evidence was completely irrelevant to (most) Democrats and Republicans alike, which is fair enough.

    Now what are you arguing? That because neither side really cares about evidence, you don’t either?

  32. dfordoom says: • Website

    Now what are you arguing? That because neither side really cares about evidence, you don’t either?

    The point is that it makes no difference. Both sides have already made up their minds, based purely on emotion. If actual evidence comes to light Biden supporters will still believe that Biden won fair and square. If the allegations of fraud turn out to be baseless Trump supporters will still insist that the election was stolen.

    No amount of evidence, positive or negative, is going to make any difference. No amount of evidence, or lack of evidence, will make any difference.

    Supporters of both candidates had already decided they weren’t going to accept a result that went against them, long before the election was even held. Even at a time when no evidence could possibly have existed both sides had already made up their minds.

    • Replies: @iffen
  33. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    No amount of evidence, or lack of evidence, will make any difference.

    There are a few people, like me for example, for whom it will make a difference.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  34. @dfordoom

    Do you have any data supporting your contention that Dems were more likely to vote by mail? Do you vote in the U.S.? Or is this guesswork from some larper in Auckland or Sydney?

    I live in one of the bluest voting districts in the country. Early in person voting was packed with people standing in line for 3 hours. Election day was similarly crowded. Blue Democrat voters!

  35. Dr. Doom says:

    The system HOPES that nothing will happen. That no one will rebel.

    The system is now FRAGILE and CORRUPT. Also, bankrupt, morally and fiscally.

    Just the thought of noncompliance FRIGHTENS those that are invested in the system.

    The fraud happened the way it was planned.

    With algorithms predicting how many fraudulent votes were needed.

    Then they were magically “found” in the wee hours of the morning.

    XEROX can do wonders for a dying old candidate that has little real support.

    Only War is left as an option now. All the “official” paths have been CORRUPTED.

    Don’t argue with fake doom, he’s part of the Tribe and immune to facts.

  36. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    No amount of evidence, or lack of evidence, will make any difference.

    There are a few people, like me for example, for whom it will make a difference.

    Of course. But for the overwhelming majority on both sides evidence (or lack of it) is not going to make any difference whatsoever.

    It’s now simply a propaganda war. Whichever side fights the propaganda war most effectively will win.

    It’s also a matter of people making decisions based on political interests. For example if it goes to the courts judges will make decisions based on their own political interests, not the evidence (or lack thereof). Unless you honestly believe that judges make decisions based on an impartial weighing up of evidence, and I know you’re too smart to believe fairytales such as that.

  37. @dfordoom

    The problem for the GOPe is if they leave Trump in the lurch, they’re chiefs without any indians.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  38. @A123

    Why did Wisconsin lose 150k voters between 2016 and 2020?

  39. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Audacious Epigone

    The problem for the GOPe is if they leave Trump in the lurch, they’re chiefs without any indians.

    I don’t think they care. They care about getting their snouts in the trough. Supporting Trump might put that at risk.

    And if they back Trump and Trump still loses they will pay a high price.

    The most important question is probably whether the Republican donors are prepared to go on backing Trump. It doesn’t matter what the players want, what matters is what the owners of the team want.

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