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The establishment hates that there is no organic interest in the conspiracy theories they approve of and enormous interest in the conspiracy theories they disapprove of:

These are the same people who lied to us over and over and over again about WMDs in Iraq. They have the blood of hundreds of thousands and the displacement of tens of millions on their hands, but some rube who questions the outcome of an election? He’s the dangerous extremist!

 
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  1. neutral says:

    Yeah, it is extreme to believe that election fraud happens, such things are simply impossible and have never happened anywhere in the world. On top of that, the Democrats are moral paragons, they would never do such things, only an extremist would think otherwise.

  2. German_reader says:

    They have the blood of hundreds of thousands and the displacement of tens of millions on their hands

    As if most Trump voters cared about that.
    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/03/19/iraq-war-continues-to-divide-u-s-public-15-years-after-it-began/

    Opinions about the use of military force in Iraq have been divided along partisan lines since the start of the Iraq War, and during the debate that preceded it. Today, a majority of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents (61%) say the decision to use force was right, compared with just 27% of Democrats and Democratic leaners.

    That’s from 2018, so well into the Trump era. And the quite enthusiastic support for the Soleimani assassination (almost 90% support for it among Republicans according to some polls) demonstrated beyond any doubt that most Trump voters are totally fine with reckless actions that could start a war even worse than the 2003 Iraq war. I also didn’t notice them express any dissent against Trump’s support for the war in Yemen (Trump actually vetoed a congressional resolution against US involvement in that war) or much concern about the effect of the extreme sanctions Trump’s administration has put on Iran and Syria (the latter deliberately designed to block any reconstruction efforts).
    Really a bit much to claim that Trump voters are the party of peace who shed tears about all the brown people in the Mideast who have been killed or displaced as a result of American policies.

  3. In December Gallup reported that 82% of those polled disapproved of Congress. Making it, easily, the most disreputable institution in the United States. That fact should be front and center in all of the reporting and editorializing on the so-called insurgency. Everyone hates Congress.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  4. fnn says:
    @German_reader

    Thee is no “party of peace” in the US. No media outlets of any significance show signs of convincing
    opposition to US imperial warmongering. US population seems to be mainly concerned about its internal conflicts about black people and Trump. OTOH, the wild crowd scenes at the Capitol on Jan. 6 must reflect more than an attachment to Trump and outlandish conspiracy theories.

  5. neutral says:
    @German_reader

    You should know by now that Americans are unprincipled cockroaches. They will follow any narrative that their masters determine for them, they will change their talking points that are completely contradictory to the previous ones with zero self awareness.

  6. @German_reader

    A majority of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents (61%) say the decision to use force was right

    (Nowadays) human beings will do anything to avoid admitting that they were wrong. Even if they are likely lying (by saying it was right) in order to do so.

    At least those Republicans are honest about having supported the war. Others will just say they never did, which is a deeper level of falseity.

    I also didn’t notice them express any dissent against Trump’s support for the war in Yemen

    Saudi Arabia is the regional power relevant to Yemen. US state “support” in this instance means merely staying respectful of that and keeping out of the way. It is the absence of intervention.

    It is therefore disingenuous to conflate the two.

    And the quite enthusiastic support for the Soleimani assassination (almost 90% support for it among Republicans according to some polls) demonstrated beyond any doubt that most Trump voters are totally fine with reckless actions that could start a war even worse than the 2003 Iraq war.

    Time for you to be honest, did Soleimani’s assassination have any of the bad effects which at the time you thought it would?

    Since it did not, and in fact was highly effective, perhaps you need to question the assumptions that led you to your previous conclusions?

    Picking out individuals works well against highly corrupt, cynical and gangster-style states. It worked well here. You might ask why the US should bother, but from the perspective of the US as the global power player it was an highly effective and low cost power play. A realist move that is completely opposite to the absurdly ideological endeavour of the Iraq war.

    I’m sympathetic to the Ron Paul line but a realpolitik US is a much more…uh…realistic…alternative to a liberal interventionist crusade for transgender rights US than a peacenik one

    • Agree: AP
  7. @Not Only Wrathful

    I’m sympathetic to the Ron Paul line but a realpolitik US is a much more…uh…realistic…alternative to a liberal interventionist crusade for transgender rights US than a peacenik one.

    I am an American who initially supported both invasions of Iraq. I was wrong.

    I also voted for Trump both times, but Trump has been extremely wrong on Iran, a fine nation of excellent people, a nation that lacks substantial interests that conflict with ours and ought not to be our foe. The Solemani assassination was the Trump administration’s single most destructive act abroad.

    Iranians were wrong to take Americans hostage at our Tehran embassy in 1979, but that was 40 years ago, in the midst of a revolution, and after all they let the hostages go. It’s long past time that Americans dropped that grudge, a grudge Americans nurse largely because Israelis want us to.

    If the U.S. can assassinate foreign leaders, then foreigners can assassinate ours. Is that how you want it? Because I don’t.

  8. iffen says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    If the U.S. can assassinate foreign leaders, then foreigners can assassinate ours.

    How do you profer exceptionalism for Gentiles and America vis-a-vis Jews and Israel, but go to relativism with regard to other nation states vis-a-vis America?

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  9. neutral says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    If the U.S. can assassinate foreign leaders, then foreigners can assassinate ours. Is that how you want it? Because I don’t.

    What is wrong with that? Given the choice of corrupt politicians being killed off vs. their foot soldiers (that almost never know what they are really fighting for), this is seems to be an easy pick.

  10. @iffen

    How do you profer exceptionalism for Gentiles and America vis-a-vis Jews and Israel, but go to relativism with regard to other nation states vis-a-vis America?

    All I want from Jews and Israel is to be left alone by them.

    Otherwise, I observe that my country is strong enough to protect her own interests but not strong enough to bear making enemies of the whole world at once. I want the United States to be a normal country that minds her own business.

    If I have misunderstood your question, feel free to clarify. Otherwise, what is your position on relativism with regard to nation states?

    • Replies: @iffen
  11. @V. K. Ovelund

    The Solemani assassination was the Trump administration’s single most destructive act abroad.

    What did it destroy?

    It’s long past time that Americans dropped that grudge, a grudge Americans nurse largely because Israelis want us to.

    The US has decided that Saudi Arabia rather than Iran will be their guy in the regional balance of power. One can debate the merits of this decision according to many different paradigms, but, in terms of benefits to the US, it does seem to be the right decision. Saudi Arabia is more effective at gathering regional support to it than Iran is, though you (and I) may wish otherwise.

    If the U.S. can assassinate foreign leaders, then foreigners can assassinate ours. Is that how you want it? Because I don’t

    It seems to me, in actuality, that the US can assassinate foreign leaders, but foreigners can’t assassinate yours.

  12. iffen says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    what is your position on relativism with regard to nation states

    My country, right or wrong.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  13. AP says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    If the U.S. can assassinate foreign leaders, then foreigners can assassinate ours. Is that how you want it? Because I don’t.

    He wasn’t a “foreign leader” but a military man conducting a shadow war, orchestrating the killing of US troops. This would be comparable to a foreign country taking out a CIA head in the Middle East, who has an extensive history of killing that country’s soldiers, as he’s plotting some more deadly actions against that foreign country’s soldiers.

    This doesn’t strike me as being illegitimate and certainly isn’t comparable in its evil to the invasion of Iraq or chaos-bringing to Libya and Syria as was done by Trump’s predecessors.

    • Agree: 216
  14. AP says:

    OT but does anyone know if Twinkie is all right? He is one of my favourite commenters.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @nebulafox
  15. Consent of the governed is so old school.

    • Agree: Adam Smith
  16. @German_reader

    And the quite enthusiastic support for the Soleimani assassination

    You are the guy who accused those of us who opposed the Soleimani assassination of engaging in “impotent masturbatory fantasies.” Obviously you have no consistency to what you complain about and are just here to troll.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  17. @AP

    He wasn’t a “foreign leader” but a military man conducting a shadow war, orchestrating the killing of US troops.

    Even if this were true, it would hardly invalidate my point; but how do you know that it’s true? From the same sources that have lied to us about everything else?

    Disgustingly, Gen. Soleimani was assassinated by the United States while he was on an official, invited visit to the government of the very Iraqi state the U.S. herself had created. Iraq is and has been a country in various states of flux of civil war, a country that borders Iran and in which Iran, unlike the United States, has a vital interest. You speak as though Soleimani had commanded military acts against American troops in Missouri rather than Mosul. What did you expect him to do? He’s a general.

    I was an American troop during my time, as was my father before me and as is my son now. No one rates the lives of American troops more highly than I do, but you and I are being skillfully manipulated. Our troops have no business in the Middle East. I blame the U.S. government. I don’t want Soleimani assassinated and I don’t want my own country’s generals assassinated. I want our troops out.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @A123
    , @iffen
  18. Arclight says:

    People these days – aided and abetted by social media and cable news – just gravitate towards whatever confirms their priors. I have a good friend who is a conservative that takes the most conspiratorial view of anything that reflects poorly on the GOP, and have listened to highly educated progressives earnestly provide an incoherent explanation about how something they saw on Facebook had to be Russian propaganda and it fits with something they heard Rachel Maddow say about election meddling.

    I know people always say that past eras were not as great as they might appear, but I have a hard time believing there has been any point in American history with such widespread gaslighting of the population.

  19. @AP

    My earlier reply neglected to acknowledge:

    This doesn’t strike me as being illegitimate and certainly isn’t comparable in its evil to the invasion of Iraq or chaos-bringing to Libya and Syria as was done by Trump’s predecessors.

    Of course I agree with you. I am pleased with Trump’s foreign policy on the whole. He’s been the best since Reagan.

    But the Soleimani assassination was a terrible blunder. Trump knew the right thing to do: get our troops out. He had said so many times, but he has an inveterate antipathy to Iran and an improper love for, well, another Middle Eastern state I would rather not mention. That antipathy and love led him to the greatest foreign policy blunder of his administration: killing Soleimani.

    There is hardly another country in the world that sees the Soleimani assassination as patriotic Americans have been manipulated to see it. Americans should not pay undue attention to the opinions of foreigners but when the whole world is disgusted with our act, maybe we should anticipate blowback?

    Soleimani was just a general of a country our troops were menacing at the behest of a certain third country that is said to be our friend but indeed means us no good. We need to get our facts straight before we go off murdering foreign dignitaries.

    • Replies: @A123
    , @A123
    , @216
  20. AP says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Even if this were true, it would hardly invalidate my point; but how do you know that it’s true? From the same sources that have lied to us about everything else?

    Were not the Iranians themselves proud of his skillful role in killing US troops? As you point out later, that wasn’t an illegitimate thing for him to do in Iraq. But the USA taking him out was likewise acceptable.

    Iraq is and has been a country in various states of flux of civil war, a country that borders Iran and in which Iran, unlike the United States, has a vital interest

    Middle Eastern oil is a vital interest across the globe, not just for Iran; the Iraq invasion was a disgusting crime but as a result we do have some interest in that country. We are also allied with Saudi Arabia. Both Iran and the USA are mixed up over there; they kill our people and we have a right to retaliate. Importantly this action was very limited and with little bloodshed – Iran was neither invaded nor bombed, a specific individual was taken out. It seems that this attack led to deescalation which was a good thing. Iran backed off after a harmless face-saving bombing that resulted in no US retaliation. Overall, things went well.

    You speak as though Soleimani had commanded military acts against American troops in Missouri rather than Mosul. What did you expect him to do? He’s a general

    Agreed. I don’t fault Soleimani for doing his job and doing it well. Interests clashed, he did a good job organising the killing of the rival nation’s soldiers. Nor do I fault our guys for doing theirs, in this case. He was taken out in Iraq, where he has been involved in killing our soldiers. Such is the nature of armed conflict, both sides take military losses.

    • Agree: Not Only Wrathful, iffen
  21. A123 says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    He wasn’t a “foreign leader” but a military man conducting a shadow war, orchestrating the killing of US troops.

    Even if this were true, it would hardly invalidate my point; but how do you know that it’s true? From the same sources that have lied to us about everything else?

    How do you know that Solemani was peaceful and inoccent? Did you get that from the Iran owned FARS news service that has every reason lie for sociopath Khameni?

    Just the opposite, there is overwhelming evidence that the violent Iranian regime has been shouting Death to America for decades. Khameni wants every American citizen and solider dead. And, he used combatants like Solemani to organization attacks on American troops.

    Your proposed “Cut & Run” strategy would make things worse. Warmongers, like Khameni, would see your desired rout of American troops as an admission of weakness. And, that would lead to increased violence against Americans.

    Trump’s policy of containing Iranian aggression has been fairly successful. There is no reason to abandon a working strategy. Führer Biden will demonstrate his profound incompetence if he does so.
    ___

    It seems like you are confusing the Iranian people with the Iranian leadership. The Iranian people want to get rid of Khameni’s tyrannical and oppressive regime. (1)

    We can understand how you might like an individual Iranian. However, liking a few individuals is not a good reason to personally embrace and endorse the murderous regime of the Ayatollah and his despicable Mullahs.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/01/11/iran-trump-tweets-support-anti-government-protesters/4444386002/

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  22. @A123

    Did you get that from the Iran owned FARS news service that …

    I have never heard of FARS, but assume that it is probably less untrustworthy than and means me less harm than do the BBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN or The New York Times.

    Unlike RT or NTD, FARS does not appear to broadcast in English, so I cannot comment further. Is there something you would like to tell me about FARS?

    • Replies: @A123
  23. A123 says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Americans should not pay undue attention to the opinions of foreigners but when the whole world is disgusted with our act, maybe we should anticipate blowback?

    What material blowback occurred? Be specific. If there has not been any blowback by now, there never will be.

    I saw a great deal of posturing, but no actions. The only logical conclusion is that much of the world is very happy with Solemani’s termination. They just want to avoid being publicly “on record” embracing the legitimate military strike.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  24. @A123

    @dfordoom:

    I could be wrong, there is no way to tell, maybe my sense is off: but he sounds rather Jewish to me.

    If not, then @A123 is the staunchest Gentile cheerleader of Jewish propaganda for which a Jew could have hoped. In that case, I hope that he finds his way out of the Matrix someday, because we need him back on our side.

    • LOL: A123
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  25. A123 says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    FARS is a primary propaganda outlet for the Iranian regime. This includes English language releases.

    https://www.farsnews.ir/en/

    FARS claims to be independent, but that is a well known “open lie”. I am surprised you have not heard of this Iranian institution. Much of what you post sounds exactly like what they promulgate for Khameni.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @El Dato
  26. Realist says:
    @neutral

    You should know by now that Americans are unprincipled cockroaches. They will follow any narrative that their masters determine for them, they will change their talking points that are completely contradictory to the previous ones with zero self awareness.

    Correct. The Deep State does not care what the American people want. They know that most American people are inane fools and will believe anything. Most Americans would rather watch America’s Got Talent, Dancing With The Stars, The Masked Singer…or some such tripe, than being informed about important issues.

    • Replies: @Neuday
    , @TomSchmidt
  27. Realist says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Iranians were wrong to take Americans hostage at our Tehran embassy in 1979, but that was 40 years ago, in the midst of a revolution, and after all they let the hostages go.

    No, mention of what the US did to Iran in 1953.

    • Agree: Adam Smith
  28. A123 says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    maybe we should anticipate blowback?

    You ducked the issue with an off point jab. Your sad and obvious attempt at Taqiyya deception was very amusing.

    To get back on point, let me repeat the question:

    What material blowback occurred? Be specific.

    Please try to stay on point this time.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @anon
  29. El Dato says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Saudi Arabia is the regional power relevant to Yemen. US state “support” in this instance means merely staying respectful of that and keeping out of the way. It is the absence of intervention.

    But this is not what happens.

    Indeed, ordinance delivery, training, intelligence support and now declaring one of the belligerents “terrorists” (not the one who dismembers people on camera in embassies, the one which on hook for crimes against humanity in just that war) is active and morally corrupt intervention. Additionally, buttboy UK is playing wingman, so this means the whole enterprise is additionally gay.

    This alone would warrant a lot of dragging-out-of-office, beating to death and hanging off lampposts.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  30. El Dato says:
    @A123

    FARS claims to be independent, but that is a well known “open lie”.

    Somebody is not under Friendly Meedja Control? This shall not stand!

    PEACE

    Oh really! How’s the weather in Tel Aviv btw?

    • Replies: @A123
    , @nebulafox
  31. Neuday says:
    @Realist

    Most Americans would rather watch America’s Got Talent, Dancing With The Stars, The Masked Singer…or some such tripe, than being informed about important issues.

    Aren’t those all women’s shows? I can’t imagine any male younger/more coherent than Joe Biden watching them.

    • Replies: @Realist
  32. Dumbo says:

    They can do what they want, and people believe them. Normies are stupid. Nothing to do.

    Now Twitter is criticizing Uganda for their “unfree” elections or something… LOL. Psychopaths are shameless, that’s all. Maybe one day the U.S. will bomb Africa until all the countries there accept sodomite marriage.

  33. @El Dato

    So the US makes money selling the Saudis stuff and says a few supportive words…

    • Replies: @El Dato
  34. El Dato says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    That’s ONE way of looking at it.

    Of course it’s not “making money”, it’s about guaranteeing a revenue stream for the local manufacturers not materially distinct from one that comes directly out of the FED’s presses.

    2015: Why is the US Aiding and Enabling Saudi Arabia’s Genocidal War in Yemen?

    2020: US green lights sale of 3,000 bombs worth $290 million to Saudi Arabia & flurry of other Middle East arms deals

    It’s not really different from delivering to the Luftwaffe to wipe out slavs.

    Just in: AOC promises to improve media literacy

    AOC says committee being discussed to ‘REIN IN MEDIA environment’ and prevent ‘false information’ spreading

    “I do think that several members of Congress, in some of my discussions, have brought up media literacy because that is a part of what happened here and we’re going to have to figure out how we rein in our media environment so that you can’t just spew disinformation, and misinformation,” the congresswoman said.

    That’s not “media literacy”, m’dm.

    “I didn’t even feel safe around other members of Congress,” she said. Told at one point to shelter with other members of Congress by US Capitol Police, Ocasio-Cortez said “there were QAnon and white-supremacist sympathizers and, frankly, white-supremacist members of Congress in that extraction point who I know and who I have felt would disclose my location and would create opportunities to allow me to be hurt, kidnapped, et cetera.”

    I wonder what’s comprised in the “et cetera.”

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  35. @El Dato

    Ok, so as I said: the US is making a bit of money and saying a few supportive words.

    Would you prefer the Federal government invade Saudi Arabia to stop them, or find some other way to enforce US ideological norms against US interests?

    Would you also want them to do this in the case of every conflict in the world? Of which there are hundreds.

    Or just impose sanctions on Saudi Arabia?

    The US picked a side in a regional battle for power and it picked the mostly stronger side. I too sympathise with the underdog, but that’s hardly a way to conduct foreign policy.

  36. A123 says:
    @El Dato

    Somebody is not under Friendly Meedja Control? This shall not stand!

    Who or What is “meedja”? If you cannot post legible English, discourse is impossible. Hopefully this is just some auto-correct issue.

    If you were going for the Biblical term “meedda” it does not seem to work in context.

    https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/meedda/

    How’s the weather in Tel Aviv btw?

    I wouldn’t know as I am in the U.S.

    How is the weather in your Tehran?

    PEACE 😇

  37. @Realist

    No, mention of what the US did to Iran in 1953.

    Iranians can hold grudges against Americans for whatever reason they like. I cannot stop them any more than I can change what happened 70 years ago. History is a slaughterbench, alas.

    Personally, I wish that Iranians and Americans would let bygones be bygones, for we have an insidious common enemy and no substantial, present, proper cause for friction between us. Also, personally, I happen to like Iranians: they’re remarkably fine people as a rule—and are rather more similar to us than most of their neighbors are.

    @A123: the informative hyperlink to FARS in English is appreciated.

  38. iffen says:
    @AP

    I don’t know, but over the years I have noticed that he disappears from time to time for several days. Maybe he’s out in the boonies stocking up on venison and other game in anticipation of the coming Armageddon.

    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
  39. iffen says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I don’t want my own country’s generals assassinated.

    Wait a minute. What if we can designate which generals?

  40. Talha says:
    @iffen

    Maybe he finally decide to listen to his wife’s advice about hanging out and arguing with random people on the Internet. Wouldn’t blame him.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
  41. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:

    Accusing someone of engaging in conspiracy theories is basically nothing but more acceptable form of gas lighting .

    Any illegal actions done behind the public view or awareness with widespread sharp and major impact is usually denied by labeling the suspicion as conspiracy theories . But the definition of conspiracy is : illegal and behind by more than 2 persons . So its a circular argument which is also tautological and is also pretty universal across the globe or the regimes.
    Often laws are made to turn the activities legal but still the way it is achieved to avoid public scrutiny or discussion is nothing but conspiracy . Bailout,releasing traitor , inserting few billions for unrelated cause or devotion here and few billions there in a bill meant for agriculture or for the safety of the elderly are nothing but conspiracy. The morality or ethics would be questioned .So a developing crisis helps.
    Often the crisis is fully harvested for profit by the conspirators Often the crisis is caused by the same conspirators No wonder they want to gaslight other .

  42. @Realist

    No one alive today has any responsibility for that.

    • Replies: @Talha
  43. Talha says:
    @Mr. Rational

    Sure, but the guys taking the hostages were alive when that happened. That event simply didn’t fall out of the sky.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @RSDB
  44. nebulafox says:
    @AP

    Presumably, as a man with several children with what I assume are busy lives, he’s got more pressing matters off screen.

  45. nebulafox says:
    @El Dato

    >Oh really! How’s the weather in Tel Aviv btw?

    Funny thing is most right-wing Israelis I’ve met or listened to seem to view the mullahs as rational. Cold-hearted SOBs who wish them nothing but ill, to be sure, but rational. The Israeli nuclear arsenal dwarfs whatever the Iranians can over hope to achieve, and Tehran knows it, nor do they have a Seoul they can implicitly hold hostage like the North Koreans can. Iran is surrounded on all sides by non-pleasant geopolitical situations (Russia and Pakistan are frenemies at best) and is controlled by competing corrupt interest groups: so the nuclear program as a strategic bargaining chip makes a lot more sense through that light.

    The notion that the Iranians are crazy is a very American thing. In part, that’s a bad reoccuring habit: the North Koreans are also dismissed as insane, as was Saddam in the day, and apparently some of our Best and Brightest used to think that Vladimir Putin had autism. But for Iran, it has deep roots in 1979 for our current ruling generation, especially in the military.

  46. iffen says:
    @Talha

    arguing with random people on the Internet.

    His stock phrase is more like “arguing with morons” on the internet. Surely he wouldn’t be thinking of putting some of us in that group. 🙂

    • Replies: @Talha
  47. German_reader says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Picking out individuals works well against highly corrupt, cynical and gangster-style states.

    Sounds like a good argument for killing Trump or Pompeo tbh.
    Realpolitik also means something different than willful contempt for all established rules of conduct between states, but I guess that lesson will be lost on types like you, you’ll only learn when the blowback of such policies starts to hurt.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  48. German_reader says:
    @neutral

    they will change their talking points that are completely contradictory to the previous ones

    Yeah, in the end everything’s only about their tribal conflicts between red and blue America. The same people who were calling Obama a drone murderer will cheer when someone like Trump bombs some Mideastern country, and vice versa. There is no intellectual coherence or honesty to be found here.

    • Replies: @A123
  49. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    “Iranians were wrong to take Americans hostage at our Tehran “
    Has the Iranian done it in 1953, they could have saved themselves from the subsequent fate of tyranny of Shah and infiltration by Israel .

    American embassy is not same as one would expect from the function of embassy . It’s a place where violence. invasions , corporate takeovers and corruption of locals are planned from .

    Assassination of Iranian scientist and generals have been effective . So have been Nazi endeavors, at least for a while . Pol Pot could still have reigned also but for a stronger neighbor did a number in them unfortunately.

    There are thugs who would us believe that success means it’s right . Lot of dumb goym will fall for that . When violence arises to fix those thugs someday , those dumb goym will be asked to denigrate rising anti – semitism .

  50. nebulafox says:
    @Talha

    It didn’t, but a quarter century passed between AJAX and the Iranian revolution, which swept theocrats to power instead of nationalists. The story is a bit more complex than drawing a straight line from 1953 to 1979, all the more because 1953 was fueled by domestic Iranian interests as much as Anglo-American mechinations.

    That’s not to say that the theocrats didn’t use the nationalist sentiment fueled by the century of humiliation at the hands of foreign powers despite subscribing to an internationalist ideology, of course: all the more because unlike Tudeh, they couldn’t be accused of acting at the behest of foreign interests. (On the opposite side of the political spectrum, the internationalist Communists did the same thing in 1940s China.) But it’d be a mistake to conflate an emotional fueler of the flames with the causes of the flames themselves. Iran was flooded with alienated, disenfranchised young men being produced by an overheated economy at the same time that Islamic revivalism was just beginning to take off. I don’t think that was inevitable.

    • Replies: @Talha
  51. German_reader says:
    @AP

    He wasn’t a “foreign leader” but a military man conducting a shadow war, orchestrating the killing of US troops.

    Disputed, and even if true, those tensions only escalated to that point because of Trump willfully seeking to destroy the nuclear agreement with Iran (which Iran was in full compliance with) and adopting a policy of economic strangulation against that country. The goal of Trump’s administration was clearly to force regime change in Iran, at any cost, nobody should be surprised about an Iranian reaction.
    Soleimani may not have been a nice man by your or my standards, but that’s beside the point, his assassination was a flagrant breach of established norms of interstate conduct, and it was pure luck that it didn’t lead to a major war, as it surely would have if the Iranian missile strike had killed Americans. The willingness of Trump’s base to cheer on such an insane policy shows they haven’t learned anything at all from the Iraq war.

    • Agree: dfordoom, Hugo Silva
    • Replies: @A123
    , @nebulafox
    , @RSDB
  52. A123 says:
    @German_reader

    Yeah, in the end everything’s only about their tribal conflicts between red and blue America. The same people who were calling Obama a drone murderer will cheer when someone like Trump bombs some Mideastern country, and vice versa. There is no intellectual coherence or honesty to be found here.

    Very few in Team Red called Barack Hussein a murder for his drone strikes. Where he was called a murder was due to his inaction, arranging for Ambassador Stevens to die in Benghazi. The core membership of Team Red is actually quite consistent.

    Team Blue on the other hand is hypocrisy in action.

    PEACE 😇
     

  53. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    Many of them weren’t.

    Anyway one at least has come to a different view of his actions than he had at the time:

    Asgharzadeh cautioned others against following in his footsteps, despite the takeover becoming enshrined in hard-line mythology. He also disputed a revisionist history now being offered by supporters of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard that they directed the attack, insisting all the blame rested with the Islamist students who let the crisis spin out of control.

    “Like Jesus Christ, I bear all the sins on my shoulders,” Asgharzadeh said.

    https://apnews.com/article/aa180559472e412a835a13e39abf0cb3

    • Replies: @Talha
  54. A123 says:
    @German_reader

    Disputed, and even if true, those tensions only escalated to that point because of Trump willfully seeking to destroy the nuclear agreement

    Notice the lack of the word TREATY.

    If Barack Hussein wanted to bind future administrations, he could have submitted the deal for Treaty Ratification. Obama the deciever, lied to the world about his authority. This should surprise no one. Remember his most famous lie:

    If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.

    with Iran (which Iran was in full compliance with)

    It has been conclusively proven that Khameni breached JCPOA during Barack Hussein’s regime. Khameni’s nuclear weapons program was proceeding under the deal. It had 100% failed before Trump took office.

    The goal of Trump’s administration was clearly to force regime change in Iran, at any cost, nobody should be surprised about an Iranian reaction.

    Absurd exageration.

    Despite Khameni’s violent provocations, Trump did not put boots on the ground. So your use of the phrase “at any cost” is obviously untrue as a matter of objective fact.

    Soleimani may not have been a nice man by your or my standards, but that’s beside the point, his assassination was a flagrant breach of established norms of interstate conduct,

    Targeting enemy commanders that have killed Americans is well within international norms. The fact that normal behaviour offends your Precious Mutti Merkel is Germany’s problem, not America’s.

    The willingness of Trump’s base to cheer on such an insane policy

    The willingness of Merkel’s insane base to challenge Trump’s highly rational policy is hard to fathom. To be honest… The fact that Merkel has German followers is hard to fathom. So, I should not be too surprised that her followers are genuine nutters.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @German_reader
  55. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:
    @A123

    Blowback can be delayed . USA’s designating Iran as an actor in 911 mo0vie is a blowback from hostage crisis .
    Thug mountain goat with a goatee by name Ben Guiron told his compatriots while killing the local native Palestinian that it was revenge for what happened in middle age.

  56. Talha says:
    @nebulafox

    I took a class on Iranian/Persian history at UCLA as an elective. What you say is right; that wasn’t the only factor – there were definitely other very important trends in society at the time. However, keep in mind that the Pasdaran (who were part of the hostage-taking coalition) was formed specifically to prevent foreign interventions like a counter-coup akin to what the CIA did in 1953. Beyond that, you have the SAVAK (that was helped founded and trained by the CIA) which was known for being one of the most brutal secret services in the region (a pretty amazing accomplishment given the neighborhood). The activities of the SAVAK were even getting noticed in the US media. SAVAK was obviously getting assistance from the CIA and the man on the street in Iran knew that.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  57. Talha says:
    @RSDB

    Agreed. Many of them were born after the 1953 coup.

    And I will say, it was the wrong action to take; since ancient times, ambassadors, emissaries and embassies have been considered sacrosanct, even in times of conflict.

    Peace.

    • Agree: RSDB
    • Replies: @Barr
    , @RSDB
  58. German_reader says:
    @A123

    Khameni’s nuclear weapons program was proceeding under the deal.

    The assessment of American intelligence agencies is that Iran stopped its nuclear weapons programme back in 2003 and hasn’t resumed it (even if they may have kept some plans and materials for such an eventuality). If Trump’s administration or the Israelis had firm evidence to the contrary, they would have shown it, but of course they haven’t. So this entire “omg, the mad mullahs are building nukes and once they’ve got them, they’ll nuke Tel Aviv” is just propaganda bs.

    So, I should not be too surprised that her followers are genuine nutters.

    Since I’m not a Merkel supporter (lol), this doesn’t concern me at all.
    Anyway, you guys fell for a horrible con man, and now you’re going to get f**ked really hard by your own national security establishment because some in your movement were stupid enough to play at revolution and took all that talk about civil war seriously. If I were an American right-winger I’d be rather more concerned about that than about anything Iran is doing.

    • Replies: @A123
  59. nebulafox says:
    @German_reader

    >Soleimani may not have been a nice man by your or my standards

    Professionally, few in that line of work are, regardless of what government they work for. Nor should they be. Comes with the job requirements.

    >If I were an American right-winger I’d be rather more concerned about that than about anything Iran is doing.

    Patriot Act 2.0, Dorsey edition.

  60. nebulafox says:
    @Talha

    Yes. TBH, there’s a tendency among academic historians to dismiss public memory at the expense of “real” history, but that reflects the self-absorbtion of ivory tower. Facts, no matter how fun they are to talk about, aren’t useful unless applied on a society wide scale. What ultimately matters in the end, in terms of how countries behave? Politicians ultimately have to respond to that. Moreover, 1953 was just the latest example of foreign influence in Iranian politics. Before 1953, you had 1941, or the embarrassing final years of the Qajar dynasty where Iran agreed to China-esque unequal treaties.

    Sp, Iran’s behavior isn’t irrational when you consider their history or, more crucially, their geography. Look north, east, west, south. Doesn’t look good. Things look better than they did in 2007 with the Great Satan not muddling around in Baghdad anymore, sure, but encirclement is still encirclement. The Iranians aren’t stupid. They know the nuclear program-even just the existence of the program-means security, hence it is worth the massive investment to keep it.

    > The activities of the SAVAK were even getting noticed in the US media. SAVAK was obviously getting assistance from the CIA and the man on the street in Iran knew that.

    Also true: but contrary to regime propaganda, the mullahs ended up racking up a more impressive domestic body count than SAVAK ever did. Part of that was the understandable paranoia caused by an Iraqi invasion, an invasion that was bankrolled by most of the world-including even the USSR. But part of that was their own version of the Cultural Revolution, which incidentally took their nuclear program (the Shah wanted one, too) decades to recover from.

    • Replies: @Talha
  61. dfordoom says: • Website
    @German_reader

    Really a bit much to claim that Trump voters are the party of peace who shed tears about all the brown people in the Mideast who have been killed or displaced as a result of American policies.

    I agree. This is another example of the wishful thinking that is rampant here. The more intelligent and sane Trump supporters wish that the majority of Trump supporters and Republicans weren’t dumb bloodthirsty warmongers so they try to convince themselves that most Trump voters aren’t dumb bloodthirsty warmongers.

    Truth doesn’t matter. What matters is believing passionately in things that you wish were true.

    It’s another example of the extraordinary similarity in the mindsets of Wokeists/SJWs and the far right. Neither of these groups cares about truth. The fact that both groups are addicted to lunatic conspiracy theories is another example of both groups’ increasing craziness.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @V. K. Ovelund
  62. A123 says:
    @German_reader

    Iran stopped its nuclear weapons programme back in 2003 and hasn’t resumed it (even if they may have kept some plans and materials for such an eventuality).

    You have to know this is untrue.

    Even your German Intelligence admits that Khameni was cheating as early as 2016.(1)

    In July 2016, Germany’s domestic security agency published an incriminating report alleging that despite Iran’s promises, the Islamic Republic continued to acquire materials that could be used to develop illegal weaponry in secret. “This holds true in particular with regards to items which can be used in the field of nuclear technology,” the report added. (2)

    A document leaked to The Associated Press that same month revealed more of Iran’s plans. According to a confidential annex to the JCPOA, Iran intended to replace its current centrifuges with more advanced ones as early as January 2027, allowing the regime to enrich at more than twice the rate it had been doing so far. This would have allowed Iran to build a nuclear bomb even before the end of the deal in 2030.

    The only people who wanted the JCPOA to continue “as-is” were Elite MIC investors who were intentionally trying to start a new Middle East nuclear arms race. No sane human being believes the deal would have stopped Iran’s aggressive nuclear weapons development.

    Trump’s rational and legal containment strategy is far better than JCPOA for limiting the Revolutionary Regime’s violence and war crimes. They simply do not have the money to develop WMD’s and engage in foreign adventurism, both intended to destabilize the region.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://honestreporting.com/iran-deal-all-times-iran-violated-nuclear-agreement/

    (2) https://www.wsj.com/articles/truth-catches-the-iran-deal-1468278677

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  63. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Everyone hates Congress.

    One of the awesome things about democracy is that most people claim to believe in it and support it but most people in practice believe that politicians are crooks and liars and despise them as such. They don’t seem to be able to figure out that democracy is a system that will always produce politicians who are crooks and liars because that’s how democracy works.

    I think it’s called cognitive dissonance.

  64. Anon[240] • Disclaimer says:

    Chappaquiddick. Ted Kennedy, the morning after driving Mary Jo into the water to drown: “The car went off the bridge.” In other words, the car did it. This was after consultations during the night with the best and the brightest. And he became a lion, a lesson not lost on others to follow. Misdirection became a pattern of speech, a habit of thought, a philosophy.

  65. nebulafox says:
    @A123

    Why are Iranian ambitions in the Middle East a national security threat to the United States, which has access to its own oil supplies? And don’t confuse Israeli or Saudi interests with American ones. Get out of the region. Yesterday.

    Frankly, if the US does not want to go the way of the 1980s USSR, the round-the-world foreign adventurism has to be sacrificed on the alter of domestic reform. That’s not an ideological point, but a material one: we just don’t have the resources. We certainly don’t have the option of pursuing a maximally aggressive policy against Russia, Iran, and China (and it is ludicrous to suggest that either Russia or Iran is anywhere close to China’s level in terms of capabilities, as Democrats and Republicans respectively do) simultaneously.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    , @A123
  66. @Realist

    Learned helplessness. At least we can turn off those programs.

    • Replies: @Realist
  67. @nebulafox

    Why are Iranian ambitions in the Middle East a national security threat to the United States, which has access to its own oil supplies

    Our allies are not energy-independent, and what happens to them affects us.  Another price spike like 1979 would damage the US economy, too.

  68. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    My country, right or wrong.

    It usually doesn’t come down to that, unless you take a very childish and simplistic view of things.

    It usually comes down to the question – do you support the current regime of your country, right or wrong? Do you support the current government of your country, right or wrong?

    Whatever follies Joe Biden may decide to commit, are you going to justify those follies on the basis of my country, right or wrong?

    How would you feel about a Japanese person who thought the attack on Pearl Harbor was justified, because my country, right or wrong? How would you feel about a German who thought the actions of Hitler were justified, because my country, right or wrong?

    You can’t possibly be dumb enough to actually subscribe to nonsense like my country, right or wrong. Tell me you’re not that dumb.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Mr. Rational
  69. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    most Trump voters aren’t dumb

    I don’t know percentages, but there has got to be a kind of Darwin Award for living in a time when it’s totally OK to wear a mask in public, but to completely ignore that convenience and commit a federal offense, detail it and broadcast it to the world with your mug clearly shown to any and every agency that wants to meet their quota early for the year:

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
    , @Talha
  70. A123 says:
    @nebulafox

    Why are Iranian ambitions … a national security threat to the United States

    It is quite straightforward:

    — Deranged & hostile Iranian Revolutionaries are still shouting “Death to America”
    — Iran has ICBM technology.
    — Sociopath Khameni is trying to develop nuclear weapons.

    Everyone sees Iran as a menace to America and it’s allies. Possibly to the human race, because a deranged nuclear first strike on American troops would result in full scale thermonuclear war.

    We certainly don’t have the option of pursuing a maximally aggressive policy against Russia, Iran, and China

    Christian Russia is a potential ally to the Christian United States. Only Leftoids see Russia as a threat.

    Given that absolutely everyone in the region wants to block Khameni’s psychotic aggression… Containing the IRGC menace is a very cost effective strategy.

    There is really no desire to go head to head with China in a military engagement. That also leads to potential nuclear war. All sane Americans want is:

    — Stopping Elite CCP trade exploitation
    — U.S. Re-Industrialization to bring jobs
    — Ending national security dependence on CCP controlled materials, such as Rare Earth Elements

    In all of these categories CHINA is the AGGRESSOR. If you want to stop aggression, you need to talk to the CCP not the U.S.
    ___

    Führer Biden is likely to be stupidly aggressive in Ukraine. Don’t blame America for that. He lost the election, and was given the seat by anti-American Elites. Führer Biden will never be a legitimate President.

    PEACE 😇
     

    • Replies: @anon
    , @anon
    , @nebulafox
  71. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    That’s it. That’s all you’ve got? I’m childish, simplistic and dumb?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  72. Talha says:
    @nebulafox

    Before 1953, you had 1941, or the embarrassing final years of the Qajar dynasty where Iran agreed to China-esque unequal treaties.

    Yes. As the article that RSDB cites, there was a debate on whether to attack the Soviet embassy. Wonder why the British embassy was not considered? 🤔

    Maybe because Uncle Sam has basically taken over the hotdog stand at that point.

    the mullahs ended up racking up a more impressive domestic body count than SAVAK ever did

    I remember this caused them a serious problem due to the purge of men like experienced officers and pilots and such hit them hard when Iraq attacked. Do you have a reliable source for some kind of a comparison between the numbers of Iranians purged by the Shah versus the ones purged by the Theocrats?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  73. German_reader says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    You are the guy who accused those of us who opposed the Soleimani assassination of engaging in “impotent masturbatory fantasies.”

    I don’t recall the exact context of that, but iirc it was about alt-rightish people who lionize Soleimani, Hezbollah etc. because they’re so disgusted with the present state of the US (also obviously opposition to Israel, and Jews more generally). I stand by that view, the hero worship of Soleimani by some online alt-righters was pretty daft, obviously most Westerners, including alt-righters, wouldn’t want to live in a system like the Islamic Republic. It also missed the core of the issue imo, which wasn’t about an assessment of Soleimani’s character, but about the likely consequences of his assassination. One doesn’t need to even like Iranians, let alone the supporters of the present regime, all that much to recognize that Trump’s actions with their risk of a full-scale war were irresponsible and something sensible Americans should have opposed out of pure self-interest.

    • Replies: @216
  74. dfordoom says: • Website
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I could be wrong, there is no way to tell, maybe my sense is off: but he sounds rather Jewish to me.

    I’m pretty sure he’s a Christian Zionist.

  75. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    That’s it. That’s all you’ve got? I’m childish, simplistic and dumb?

    Sometimes you say things that I’d expect from someone who was childish, simplistic and dumb. You’re quite sensible on most issues but I think you have a huge blind spot where American foreign policy is concerned. My country, right or wrong is childish, simplistic and dumb.

    • Replies: @Talha
  76. @German_reader

    Anything to avoid admitting you were completely wrong about Soleimani…

    Hiding in vague accusations and fuzzy thinking will only fool idiots. It is therefore an injustice to try to use it to fool yourself

  77. @Talha

    Politics is often symbolic

    • Replies: @Talha
  78. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    I remember that song from Greatest Hits, Vol. 41!!!

    Peace.

  79. Talha says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    That’s also true; perhaps they fully planned to get arrested. 🤷‍♂️

    Peace.

  80. @dfordoom

    It’s another example of the extraordinary similarity in the mindsets of Wokeists/SJWs and the far right.

    The American far right are the ones that agree with you on the Middle Eastern wars. Your problem is that, at about 6 percent of the white population (as documented in an earlier post), there are not enough of us yet.

    What would it take to persuade you that the American far right are not who you think we are? Since you are not American, maybe it doesn’t matter, but I thought that I would ask.

    My country, right or wrong is childish, simplistic and dumb.

    Maybe, but it has also been the traditional toast of the hardy American patriot since before the U.S. Civil War. It is more American than baseball. It is as American as the American flag.

    There is zero chance of persuading @iffen and me to abandon the traditional toast now.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  81. Realist says:
    @TomSchmidt

    At least we can turn off those programs.

    But many people don’t.

  82. Realist says:
    @Neuday

    Aren’t those all women’s shows? I can’t imagine any male younger/more coherent than Joe Biden watching them.

    I know that they are popular. My comment also included the phrase…or some such tripe .That includes sports and the dumb shit stuff that many men watch. The point is this country is awash in naive idiots that live in ignorant bliss.

    • Replies: @A123
  83. A123 says:
    @Realist

    Does anyone of any gender watch these “reality” shows?

    OK… The original Real World on MTV was new and novel. But that was decades ago.

    PEACE 😇

  84. 216 says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    General Solemani was the single most effective Iranian commander, taking him out has thrown the IRGC into disarray, and complicated the internal Iranian political scene.

    The US did Iran a tremendous favor by removing two hostile regimes on its borders, Iran repaid the US by electing Ahmedinejad, instead of making peace with Israel.

    And Solemani’s men killed hundreds of American soldiers.

    I shed no tears.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  85. 216 says:
    @German_reader

    obviously most Westerners, including alt-righters, wouldn’t want to live in a system like the Islamic Republic.

    What far-right Westerners oppose about the Iranian system is its Islamic nature. But most people on the far-right want greater religious involvement in government, a less promiscuous dress code, and intolerance of liberal subversion.

  86. anon[981] • Disclaimer says:
    @A123

    In 2013, Adelson proposed that then-President Obama should scrap nuclear negotiations with Iran and instead fire a nuclear weapon into “the middle of the [Iranian] desert.” That nuclear strike, said Adelson, should be followed up by a nuclear attack on Tehran, a city of 8.6 million people, if Iran didn’t abandon its nuclear program.

    And in 2008, the New Yorker reported Adelson saying, “I really don’t care what happens to Iran. I am for Israel.”

    Adelson, whose widow is a U.S.-Israel dual national and who continues to practice medicine in Israel, explained the central role of Israel in his philanthropy and “in our heart,” saying at a 2010 public event that “the uniform that I wore in the military unfortunately was not an Israeli uniform, it was an American uniform.”

    “I’m a one-issue person. That issue is Israel,” he said in 2017.—
    https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2021/01/12/sheldon-adelsons-legacy-of-underwriting-american-militarism/

    Sociopath. ICBM . Nuclear bombs .Death to America , blah blah blah !

  87. That’s not a “deconstruction.” It’s pointing out an inconsistency.

    Why do people insist on using, and mis-using, that word? Do they think it makes them sound smart? Think again.

  88. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Oh the memes, children!!! The colors!!!

    If memes has stock value, I would ride this one out for a couple of months.

    Peace.

    • LOL: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @anon
  89. anon[687] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    All of them have been arrested or the FBI is looking for them.

    Some of them will go to prison, some of them will be turned into informants while on probation.

    Because of what they did, yes, but more because of who they are.

  90. Pericles says:
    @216

    The US did Iran a tremendous favor by removing two hostile regimes on its borders, Iran repaid the US by electing Ahmedinejad, instead of making peace with Israel.

    Hmm.

  91. dfordoom says: • Website
    @V. K. Ovelund

    There is zero chance of persuading @iffen and me to abandon the traditional toast now.

    So do you think all of America’s wars deserved unquestioning support? Including the Spanish-American War, the First World War, the war against Hitler, the war against Japan, the Korean War, Vietnam, the Iraq War?

    Will you support any war that Joe Biden decides to start?

    Do you think that there have ever been times when US foreign policy has been totally wrong-headed and/or morally wrong? How about all those Iraqi children who died as a result of US sanctions?

    If you can’t give an unqualified yes to the first ad second questions and if you can’t give an unqualified no to the third then you don’t really believe in My Country, Right Or Wrong.

  92. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    It is apparent that the phrase does not mean the same thing to me as it does for you. Maybe we can revisit in the future. I’ve got to go do survival training IRL today.

  93. anon[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @A123

    This part is :
    Death to America—-“ Adelson’s final political act was to ferry Jonathan Pollard — a former U.S. Navy analyst who spent 30 years in prison after pleading guilty to spying for Israel — to Israel on one of his private 737s after Pollard’s travel ban was lifted.“

    Not included into comment 89

  94. Barr says:
    @Talha

    Not at all .USAhas seized consulates as recent as in last decade . Intentionally has bombed embassy .
    USA has used embassy to cause coup in other countries . Annexe building of US embassy was feeding the rat line in Libya .
    All embassies try to gather information , engage into spying and more ,USA stands apart in getting everything from ground zero with no internal factors or opportunities in the targeted countries , it goes out and creates , bribes , caused chaos and then at right moment sweeps in and sweeps up leaving dead bodies and new regimes of its choice .

    Throughout the post WW2 , American embassies were extension of corporations and pentagon in Latin America , East Asia and in Africa .

    ————————————————————
    Somewhere I read this —at its origin , embassy as we know from European system was not initially a protected place , ambassadors were used as insurance , as protection in case of invasion ambassadors would be used as pawn . The place in European context were not sacrosanct,

  95. @dfordoom

    So do you think all of America’s wars deserved unquestioning support? Including the Spanish-American War, the First World War, the war against Hitler, the war against Japan, the Korean War, Vietnam, the Iraq War?

    Of course not.

    Will you support any war that Joe Biden decides to start?

    Would not not be astonished if I did?

    Do you think that there have ever been times when US foreign policy has been totally wrong-headed and/or morally wrong? How about all those Iraqi children who died as a result of US sanctions?

    I will not be drawn into this discussion under these circumstances.

    Regardless of what I approve or disapprove, I am not at liberty to join, nor do I wish to join, with foreigners in opposition to the actions of my own people. My people are mine. I am of them. I am Identitarian, through and through. As fond as I am of your many wise contributions to the blog, nothing can alter these facts.

    If you can’t give an unqualified yes to the first and second questions and if you can’t give an unqualified no to the third then you don’t really believe in My Country, Right Or Wrong.

    Perhaps, but please consider what you are saying. If I took your advice I should have to dishonor the ongoing military service of my own son and his dear comrades. My son is no mere abstraction to me.

    You ask of me a thing I cannot give.

    • Replies: @Talha
  96. A123 says:
    @dfordoom

    Will you support any war that Joe Biden decides to start?

    Führer Biden will never be a legitimate President. U.S. Citizens are under no obligation to follow an unelected regime imposed by Nazi Coup.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  97. @A123

    Führer Biden will never be a legitimate President. U.S. Citizens are under no obligation to follow an unelected regime imposed by Nazi Coup.

    Hey, I resent that!! Joe Biden is not allowed to be a Nazi. I’m supposed to be the Nazi here, remember?

    • Replies: @A123
  98. A123 says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Hey, I resent that!! Joe Biden is not allowed to be a Nazi. I’m supposed to be the Nazi here, remember?

    No….. No….. No….. You are from Tehran. That makes you an authoritarian Mullah or an Ayatollah. Not an authoritarian Nazi.

    It is also worth noting that Biden and Harris are newfangled “Woke Nazis” with Blue SJWastika armbands rather than traditional Nazis in 1940’s Red Armbands. This does present a wardrobe problem for “Woke Nazis” as kneeling in Jackboots is difficult. I seem to recall Nazi Pelosi getting stuck kneeling while wearing her Elite $250 Kunta Kinte Cloth.

    I feel your pain. There is so much authoritarianism in the world, it is hard to keep track of it all.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @anon
  99. anon[367] • Disclaimer says:
    @A123

    1 One of the ways things are getting worse in Israel is through the enshrining of Zionist-inspired apartheid in law. On 18 July 2018 the Israeli Knesset (Parliament) enacted a “Nation-State” Law. It defines the State of Israel as the nation-state “of the Jewish people only.” In other words, only Jews can hold “nationality rights” in Israel.
    MK (member of the Knesset) Yariv Levin dubbed the law “Zionism’s flagship bill … that will put Israel back on the right path. A country that is different from all others in one way, that it is the nation-state of the Jewish people.” MK Amir Ohana, who chaired the special committee that shaped the bill, stated: “This is the law of all laws. It is the most important law ……. national rights in Israel belong only to the Jewish people.”  https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/01/12/defending-apartheid/ Lawrence Davidson is professor of history at West Chester University in West Chester, PA.

    2Likud minister warns Israel could attack Iran nuclear program if US rejoins deal:
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/likud-minister-warns-israel-could-attack-iran-nuclear-program-if-us-rejoins-deal/

    But but but but !!! Israeli told us that Saudi was the reason for US ramp up the sanction and threat of war against Iran and Iran was racist religious theocracy attack g its 2 neighbors day and night .

  100. Talha says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    Senator Mathew Carpenter, who used the phrase, “My country, right or wrong” to prove his point. In reply, Senator Shurz said, “My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
    Carl Schurz’s speech was received with a deafening applause from the gallery, and this speech established Carl Schurz as one of the foremost and distinguished orators of the Senate.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/my-country-right-or-wrong-2831839

    The above quote seems to be a reasonable approach to the subject, no? It has to do with, not necessarily siding with others as much as concentrating on making one’s own side better.

    Chesterton said something along the lines of ; “my country right or wrong” makes as much sense as “my mother drunk or sober”. Or, as I might add, “my father, whether sober or drunk and beating my mother.”

    It reminds me of a couple of statements from the Prophet (pbuh).

    I asked the Prophet (pbuh), saying, “O Messenger of Allah, is it part of ‘asabiyyah/tribalism that a man loves his people?” The Prophet said, “No, rather it is tribalism that he supports his people in oppression.” – reported in Ibn Majah

    Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) said, “Help your brother whether he is an oppressor or an oppressed,” A man said, “O Allah’s Messenger! I will help him if he is oppressed, but if he is an oppressor, how shall I help him?” The Prophet (pbuh) said, “By preventing him from oppressing, for that is how to help him.” – reported in Bukhari

    Note the use of “brother” here; even when the person is doing wrong, he is not being rejected, but the point is to rectify him in order to help him.

    But maybe I’ve misunderstood and the identitarianism you are calling other whites to is tribalism for the post-modern and post-tribal world…?🤷‍♂️

    Peace.

    • Agree: RSDB, V. K. Ovelund, iffen
  101. @dfordoom

    You can’t possibly be dumb enough to actually subscribe to nonsense like my country, right or wrong.

    You don’t know the full saying, do you?

    “My country, right or wrong.

    When right, to keep it right.

    When wrong, to set it right.”

  102. @German_reader

    …the quite enthusiastic support for the Soleimani assassination (almost 90% support for it among Republicans according to some polls) demonstrated beyond any doubt that most Trump voters are totally fine with reckless actions that could start a war even worse than the 2003 Iraq war.

    I voted for Trump both times, and I was freakin’ horrified at the time of the Soleimani assassination. But isn’t it time we admit that action did not have the massive negative consequences many of us then feared? Based on what I’ve subsequently read about that man, I’m inclined to suspect Trump’s boldness may have actually been the correct approach in that instance.

    Plus he’s the first President since Reagan who didn’t start a feckless war. So characterizing him as a sort of warmonger seems frankly stupid.

  103. nebulafox says:
    @A123

    >— Deranged & hostile Iranian Revolutionaries are still shouting “Death to America”…

    And all of this is America’s problem how? Again: Israeli and Saudi security problems are not ours. Moreover, again: what exactly can Iran do militarily with a bomb without major urban centers to hold hostage and with an Israeli nuclear arsenal that will be vastly technologically and numerically superior to theirs? Real danger is what the Saudis will do in the absense of an American presence, but we can’t just piss trillions of dollars of money away based off of implicit blackmail.

    I’m not delusional about the nature of the Iranian regime: as long as the mullahs are in charge, they don’t wish the US anything but ill. And due to its population as well as a national coherence level that nobody else in the region except for Israel has, regional kingmaker status is inevitable if we’re not around. But so what? The Shi’ites are swamped demographically in a sea of Sunnis: they can’t overcome that reality, meaning that their ability to influence the whole region is always going to be limited. The United States has to pick and choose what to focus on at this point, and the Middle East is probably the closest we will get to an unambiguous cost/benefit calculation pointing in the “get out” direction.

    >Christian Russia is a potential ally to the Christian United States. Only Leftoids see Russia as a threat.

    Religion has no role to play in American foreign policy except in the minds of people that should never be trusted with high office again, aka, the Dubya crowd (and, however much they’d deny it, the wokeists). Furthermore, while elite attempts to focus on Russia over China are the result of a mixture of pure venality and irrational ideological preoccupations than anything based in a realistic assessment of their respective abilities, I doubt that Christian piety has ever been Putin’s MO when it comes to foreign policy calculations.

    >In all of these categories CHINA is the AGGRESSOR. If you want to stop aggression, you need to talk to the CCP not the U.S.

    It’s not mutually exclusive. In the age of the Internet, a nation capable of building roads, vaccinating people, not putting people who’d prioritize the interests of foreign states over their own in power, and actually getting stuff done is more likely to be taken seriously by rivals.

    To quote Deng Xiaoping: We should do more, and talk less.

    • Replies: @A123
  104. nebulafox says:
    @dfordoom

    Hmm…

    Japan directly attacked the US, Hitler declared war on the US, and North Korea invaded the South with the USSR giving them the arms, clandestine officers, and green light to do so in the environment of the early Cold War. Had I been around at the time, I would have supported them.

    WWI is tricky, because a standout feature in my commenting history is that US intervention in that war egged on by the media, Wall Street, and the intellectuals of the day ultimately made history worse. But speaking honestly, if I were at the time, the Zimmermann telegram would have swung me me around after being decidedly anti-intervention (principles aside, I’d like to think just looking at accounts of Ypres or the Somme would have confirmed things for me-and it wasn’t just us, most Italians smartly wanted to stay out of Europe’s collective suicide at first) throughout 1914-1916. Even granted that British intelligence leaked the story, you can’t deny that German diplomatic ineptitude was a huge part of why they lost WWI in general, with the US entry being only a particularly prominent highlight. I’d probably grow to regret that decision over the coming years, like a lot of Americans seemed to, but I’m trying to answer this honestly without the benefit of historical hindsight.

    The rest, I’d like to think not. Plenty of ideological anti-imperial opposition existed to the Spanish-American War, from Twain to Carnegie, so I’m pretty confident on that one. Vietnam would fall on Realpolitik lines in a time period where a stable balance had been hashed out with the USSR. My guess is though I’d likely take a dim view of the Hanoi apologists as the protest movements got going, it’d ultimately be pretty clear that post-Diem, South Vietnam was forfeit barring an effort that was incompatible with our wider spending domestically. I think I would have realized we were overstretching and would have advocated just sticking to arms and material, and if that wasn’t enough, shoring up relations with other potential partners in the region, as we eventually did.

    As for Saddam, well, wait: weren’t we just bankrolling the dude against Iran with the exception of some narco-connected White House staffers? 😉 A decade later, I advocated the wars at the time, of course: I was in primary school growing up in a deeply conservative hothouse environment, so I think I deserve a break on that one. Knowing what I do now, of course…

  105. nebulafox says:
    @Talha

    The nuclear program was severely damaged by the flight of high-octane scientists to the United States. For a theocracy, Iran has a surprisingly effective STEM education system after decades of rebuilding, but it still has trouble keeping many of the best and brightest around. Iranian mothers who don’t want to see their brilliant but socially tactless prodigy child assassinated by MOSSAD someday ship them off to Caltech or MIT and hope they stay there.

    >I remember this caused them a serious problem due to the purge of men like experienced officers and pilots and such hit them hard when Iraq attacked. Do you have a reliable source for some kind of a comparison between the numbers of Iranians purged by the Shah versus the ones purged by the Theocrats?

    Beneath the top levels, SAVAK’s replacements incorporated many SAVAK officers who’d been granted pardons by the mullahs: what other choice did they have when Iraq invaded? So it shouldn’t be too surprising that the culture of cruelty didn’t change one iota. (Just like how Da’esh was driven by Saddam’s former Mukhabarat men.) What really changed was the scale. Keeping in line with the political dynamics of the regime, which is more competing power blocks and less totalitarian monolith, modern Iran’s got several different services jockeying with each other for influence. SAVAK never had more than 60,000 people at its peak, whereas even the lowest estimates for the Pasdaran alone figure in the six digits.

    Reliable numbers are hard to come by because of the politically charged nature of this, but Ervand Abrahamian, an outright Marxist author who is therefore unsurprisingly not a Shah apologist, has recorded the number of political executions as going up by at least a double digit magnitude, from under 100 in the 1970s to nearly 8,000 between 1981 and 1985 alone. I’m skeptical that the former was that low, but the sharp uptick in deaths seems to be a common consensus for everyone outside of the Iranian propaganda ministry. It is easy to see why: the security state was massively expanded by the mullahs. Part of that was the Iraqi invasion, but part of that was an ideology that was more totalitarian than the Shah’s. Iran’s back to being an authoritarian state now-the human rights abuses massively cooled down when the war ended. But the expanded security state is still there, and still seems to engage in a significantly higher scale of human rights abuses than SAVAK did in the 1970s.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @Talha
  106. A123 says:
    @nebulafox

    >— Deranged & hostile Iranian Revolutionaries are still shouting “Death to America”…

    And all of this is America’s problem how?

    Because sociopath Khameni will never stop. Weakness = Encoragement. Look at the consequences of Barack Hussein’s submission to Khameni: (1)

    how little regard Iran has for America” under Obama. Trump, who was a presidential candidate at the time, stated: “Those young people were on their hands and knees in a begging position with their hands up and thugs behind them with guns, and then we talk like it’s OK. It’s not OK. It’s lack of respect.” But Obama didn’t express disapproval.

    Iran is now celebrating the fifth anniversary of the incident, threatening that it is fully prepared to be “absolutely decisive and tough” in defending Iran, however “defending” might be interpreted by the Islamic regime.

    Regardless of the “wisdom or folly” of the origin of the issue, what the U.S. now faces is clear. A mentally unhinged & implacable enemy bent on murder. There is no viable method for disengagement with a child killing religious zealot.

    Helping the Iranian people free themselves from this horror is:

    — A practical, political necessity because the enemy is not mentally capable of backing down.
    — Morally the right thing to do. Especially since the U.S. wiped out the Iraqi force that previously contained the violent Revolutionary aggression.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.jihadwatch.org/2021/01/iran-celebrates-5th-anniversary-of-its-capture-of-10-american-sailors-with-more-threats

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  107. @A123

    Regardless of the “wisdom or folly” of the origin of the issue, what the U.S. now faces is clear. A mentally unhinged & implacable enemy bent on murder.

    The U.S. has murdered hundreds of thousands in that part of the world. The Saudis have murdered plenty, too. The Israelis do their share of targeted killing, though they seem to prefer to let the United States do the majority of their killing for them. However, I don’t actually see those Iranians you so dislike harming a lot of people, except as told in the feverish propaganda of the Jewish-controlled press.

    That press, after all, has lied to us about practially everything else. I cannot think of a single reason to believe the same press when it comes to the Iranians. Can you?

    • Replies: @A123
  108. A123 says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    I do not believe the press. You will note that I frequently call them the Fake Stream Media [FSM].

    I believe the evidence trail proving that sociopath Khameni & his regime are violent towards American troops & civilians, the Iranian people, Christians around the world, etc. To the extent that the FSM accidentally stumbles into the truth… A broken clock is right twice a day.

    Again, containment is working. No war is required. Eliminating the horror of Solemani had NO BLOWBACK. All of the doom callers have been proven 100% wrong.

    And, it ties back to sociopath Khameni’s mental condition. He only cares about himself. Solemani’s termination made it clear to Khameni that he was ‘personally’ at risk. Suddenly, though temporarily, he became much more restrained.

    the feverish propaganda of the Jewish-controlled press.

    Much of what you are blaming on Jews is actually the product of violent Muslims. Most notably the vile media magnate, The IslamoSoros. Part of the covenant of Jihad is Taqiyya (1)… deceiving Christians, like yourself, into acting against the followers of God.

    You are being played like a chump by Islam. As long as you willingly (or even unwittingly) serve the enemy of Jesus, your Soul is at risk.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) http://muslimfact.com/bm/terror-in-the-name-of-islam/islam-permits-lying-to-deceive-unbelievers-and-bri.shtml

  109. RSDB says:
    @German_reader

    Soleimani may not have been a nice man by your or my standards, but that’s beside the point, his assassination was a flagrant breach of established norms of interstate conduct,

    I’m curious; if he had been an Iranian private instead of an Iranian general, would the assassination have been as flagrant a breach? A lieutenant?

  110. RSDB says:
    @Talha

    I agree, but as crazy mob actions, even planned ones, go, it wasn’t really that bad, except for Ken Kraus, and even he wasn’t killed.

    There’s a limit on how long I want to hold a grudge in any case. On one of Anatoly Karlin’s pages someone cited a Russian documentary which apparently argued that the “West is [an] enemy to Russia” based on the sack of Constantinople in 1204– perhaps that’s drawing the line a little too far back.

    • Replies: @Talha
  111. Talha says:
    @RSDB

    There’s a limit on how long I want to hold a grudge in any case.

    Sure, but if we are being honest it’s not simply about the US and Iran. There is another nation involved deeply in the mix which we won’t mention.

    Peace.

  112. Talha says:
    @nebulafox

    For a theocracy, Iran has a surprisingly effective STEM education system

    **Distance coughs heard from 8th-11th century Khwarezm region.**

    The nuclear program was severely damaged by the flight of high-octane scientists to the United States.

    I know. The father of a good Iranian friend from UCLA was a nuclear scientist. And his family was actually believing and practicing Muslims! So I can only imagine how many more secular types went to the US or Europe.

    Much thanks on the references for the numbers of security-state disappearances under the Theocrats.

    Peace.

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