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At the beginning of March, before coronavirus turned America upside down, YouGov surveyed Americans on their sentiments towards China. The survey did so again at the end of the month, after most of the country had been placed under shelter-at-home orders, the stock market lost a third of its value, jobless claims increased by an order of magnitude, and more people died from the virus than perished on 9/11.

The percentages who assessed China as either “unfriendly” or an “enemy” before and after coronavirus washed over America:

Sentiments went virtually unchanged. The only notable exceptions are among blacks, Democrats, and the elderly–all of whom report having become less hostile towards China over the course of the last month.

These results are understandable, if still too alarmingly sinophobic. After all, the American military set the whole thing into motion!

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(Yes, payable to Audi Ep is fine, xie xie. What? Is this thing still on? Oh dear…)

 
• Category: Culture/Society, Foreign Policy • Tags: China, Coronavirus, Polling 
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  1. Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people…

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying “No Problem!” and “It’s Just the Flu!!!” and now that they’ve found out they HAVE a problem and “It’s NOT the Flu!” they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I’ve pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there’s a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    • Disagree: neutral, Hail
    • LOL: AaronB
    • Troll: Achmed E. Newman, iffen, UK
    • Replies: @UK
    @Ron Unz

    *Cringe.

    Not cringe : https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

    , @22pp22
    @Ron Unz

    Your ascribing far too much competence to humanity. What many people on this site see as a great conspiracy or a germ war attack is really just a giant cock-up on all sides, including China's. Only Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore come out of this well.

    However, you may find this interesting.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFCcSI0pU

    , @Elmer's Washable School Glue
    @Ron Unz


    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump.
     
    I largely agree with the sentiment expressed here but I don't see the American government in particular as acting any worse then the Western average. Did Italy or the UK perform any better? Sweden, often the object of fascinated admiration among leftists, *still* hasn't institiued a lockdown.

    Also, I'll throw this out there: if the US government had issued early and comprehensive flight bans from China (and Europe when the time came), there would have been no need for a lockdown. And the people groaning the most about those bans when they did arrive (late) were complaining that Trump was being *too* severe, that he *shouldn't* have limited travel. This is part of a pattern: people whine and kvetch about not wanting shutdown measures to prevent damage to the "economy," despite the fact that every day the measures are delayed, cumulative economic damage will increase.

    Coronavirus reflects poorly on the entire West, revealing its horribly incompetant and rotting state instiutions, in stark contrast to the incredible relative efficiency of China, Russia, Vietnam, etc. Even India under evil demagogue Modi has been far more competant in its response. (See: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/quarantine-india-covid-19-coronavirus/) Unfortunately media propganda prevents both left and right from seeing "liberal democracy" as the shitshow it has been revealed to be.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    , @A123
    @Ron Unz


    Finally, there’s a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:
     
    An attack with a bio-WMD invites a response with a nuclear-WMD.

    How does a total forces exchange with nuclear weapons help the Deep State / NeoConDemocrats?

    The Deep State is trying to overthrow the Constitution so that it can take the land. That is what the bogus impeachment charging "Obstruction of Nothing" was for. Turning the U.S. into a nuclear wasteland does not align with their depraved goals.

    An accidental release from the Wuhan bio-weapon facility remains much more plausible than a false-flag attempt to start war.

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @Corvinus

    , @obwandiyag
    @Ron Unz

    The attempts to place blame on China for the terrible incompetence of Assholian leaders and the decrepitude of the Empire, and quite possibly to deflect attention from an Assholian and/or Khazar biological weapons program gone awry, is key to understanding the 'populist'/teabagger response - it's pathetic, but it is just about all they have left as this magnificent bastard of a virus literally puts the lie to every single tenet of their modern perversion of libertarianism.

    , @Joe Stalin
    @Ron Unz

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfSBVt3V_zI

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @Ron Unz

    The schizophrenic, disjointed, contradictory US government response and China's potential culpability need not be mutually exclusive. The former is beyond dispute. I think the latter is still an open question, though.

    China could have been more forthcoming in December, January, and February. And if current reporting is to be believed, China should now be far more forthcoming about what the secret has been to effectively wipe the virus out within its borders than it has been.

    In case it was not obvious, the joke about being a paid shill had the CCP in mind. Despite my no doubt offering takes now and again Ron finds incorrect or irrelevant, he has never so much as hinted towards any editorial control over anything on this blog. There is no greater champion of honest inquiry and free expression than Ron Unz.

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @Tor597

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Ron Unz


    Finally, there’s a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons
     
    Most of the comment- OK; this part- not very convincing.
    , @Sean
    @Ron Unz

    A past post suggested that a cabal behind a US bioweapon attack on China might have thought that since the SARS pathogen caused chaos in the East Asia, but no epidemic in America that the cousin of the SARS pathogen, SARS-CoV-2 would behave similarly. How could this be so; if they had created it they'd know certain pertinent facts:-


    https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/03/ace2-how-researchers-think-coronavirus-attacks-cells-and-how-it-could-be-stopped.html
    Q: What is the theoretical relationship between ACE2 and COVID-19?

    A: SARS and the virus that causes COVID-19, (SARS-CoV-2), are very similar in genetic makeup. Both have the spike that would connect to the receptor. That’s where the coronavirus gets its name; corona means crown in Latin, and the virus has crown-like spikes.

    Linda Saif, a virologist and distinguished university professor at Ohio State University, wrote in an email that several studies have reported that SARS CoV-2 has higher affinity for binding to ACE2 than SARS and this contributes to its more efficient transmission in humans
     

    The spike (suspected to be from a pangolin virus origin and to have got into SARS-CoV-2 by the two viruses recombining) would have been the gain of function modification. Hence SARS-CoV-2 would be know, as definitely different than SARS both having been tested. No they are not going to use something without testing. Also, given their deep seated distrust of antisemitism arising in white gentile society under conditions of societal breakdown, neocons would be extremely wary of the slightest possibility of a global pandemic. Why weaken China, somewhere all the (substantially Jewish) hedge fund industry are heavily invested in? A deeper than Deep State Strangelovian clique of the military?

    https://www.stripes.com/news/us/air-force-general-behind-5g-memo-leaves-white-house-1.509849
    A senior administration official confirmed that Air Force Brig. Gen. Robert Spalding is no longer serving as NSC senior director for strategic planning. Spalding was not fired, according to the official, who said his detail had ended and was not renewed. His last day as a White House staffer was Jan. 31. Spalding was not implicated in the leak of the memo, but officials said his advocacy for the plan had gone beyond his role, contributing to the NSC leadership's decision to send him back to the Air Force.

    Spalding was informed that his White House tenure was ending last week, the senior administration official said, before his memo and PowerPoint proposal were leaked. The Jan. 28 Axios story sparked alarm, drawing opposition from major telecom companies and catching the White House off guard.
     

    The Pentagon are not stupid or reckless enough to do something that can get them the death penalty if done without proper chain of command orders. Commands emanating from some mid level blob would be rejected, doubly so as they would be unlawful and against the military take, besides which, executing such an order might spark WW3. The Chinese are believed to be lying about their epidemic by understating infected and death too presumably) by 15 to 40 times. Were it a bioweapon attack China would already have determined that fact and for all they know the same US cabal is preparing a more targeted rapid follow up attack that will decemate China and hit the young instead of old. Were COVID-19 a US bioweapon attack, China would be threatening the US with war as we speak. Please don't take this as an insult but I think you have lost the place of late. I think you should ask a trusted friend to recommend a therapist. You would not try to be your own lawyer or dentist, no shame in consulting a psychologist .

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Tor597

    , @Thomm
    @Ron Unz


    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.
     
    At least the true agenda of this site has been admitted.
    , @The Alarmist
    @Ron Unz

    https://www.cdc.gov/flu/images/about/burden/Influenza-Chart-Infographic-high-res.jpg

    We can quibble over whose fault it might be if the actual US death count is significantly higher than 61k.

    Replies: @Hail

    , @Thea
    @Ron Unz

    The Chinese government knew selling live wild animals in cramped, inhumane conditions bred several deadly scourges and allowed them to continue to sell their wares. Xi carries a lot of the blame.

    , @Corvinus
    @Ron Unz

    Everything you said in your post prior to this statement was spot-on without issue.


    "Finally, there’s a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books..."
     
    The problem is what is the percentage that equates to "pretty reasonably possibility"? How are we able to quantify it? Moreover, your pronouncement only fans the flames of those "Covid-19 hoaxes" and die-hard righties who already believe in the machinations of Deep State Neocons engaging in this conduct. Rather than say "it's possible", they take your meaning to the next step--"no, it happened!". As a result, they ignore any counter evidence and accept proof that reinforces their position they deem to be "iron-clad".

    Replies: @Johnny Rico

  2. Sentiments went virtually unchanged.

    That word, sentiments, probably explains why. It probably isn’t very useful to ask ordinary people how they might feel about China. If I consult my gut, I don’t have any particularly bad feelings about China or the Chinese people either. The subject is too large, vague, and far away. But even the most rudimentary rational analysis tells you that China should not be trusted. We’ve let China walk in and out of our country with every sort of technology and industrial secret they wanted. They’ve taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can’t even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help. China has done a number on us, and we have only ourselves to blame. They’re crafty and wily, and we’re lazy and stupid. I doubt that hating China would lead to anything productive, but we’ve got to end this dysfunctional relationship.

    Apropos of that subject, my suspicion is that the corona lockdown has progressed too far to be reversed now. The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book), but the cultural and economic dislocations are not going to be reset to the status quo ante. We’re on a path now that must be trodden to the end. The whole globalist system and its many political, social, and economic arrangements is coming apart. “It’s a long road with no turning, pally,” as Shelly Levene said.

    The metaphor here is not “This is our World War Two,” which historically illiterate Boomer cosplay and manifest nonsense. This is, however, our World War One. This is the time when our sclerotic elites, comfortable for way too long and betraying a stunning lack of creativity and foresight, dragged the world into chaos and destruction over a minor incident, and fielded a system interlocking powers and tensions that could accomplish nothing but its own self-destruction at enormous cost.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    @Intelligent Dasein

    You're a child. "They’ve taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can’t even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help" is false. Typical childish inability to see the forests for the treeses. Correction: "Our owners gave away and kiboshed our manufacturing and millions of jobs." Don't you understand what's really going on?

    , @obwandiyag
    @Intelligent Dasein

    You imbecile. You think it's "Boomers" (OK, you call other people Boomers, they call you Shitheads) who made up that stupid comparison? And not young, shithead journalists. Who, by the way, made up the term, "Boomers." You don't know nothing. Go ahead, correct me.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    , @YetAnotherAnon
    @Intelligent Dasein

    "We’ve let China walk in and out of our country with every sort of technology and industrial secret they wanted. They’ve taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can’t even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help. China has done a number on us, and we have only ourselves to blame. "

    The "we" who let China walk in and out, and who are to blame, are not the same people as the "we" who can't get basic necessities. It's not Joe Sixpack who moved manufacturing to China.

    The first "we" have plenty of masks, tests, hazmat suits if they want them.

    Replies: @obwandiyag

    , @Twinkie
    @Intelligent Dasein


    The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book
     
    Well, NichtIntelligent Dasein, I am mildly amused that you have moved on from “just a bad flu” level of mortality to “three or four bad flue seasons compressed into one year.” No doubt, should the rate increase further, you will say, “This is still nothingburger, it’s only ten bad seasons compressed into half a year! So, basically, still just flu-like.”

    You seem not to realize that we are still in the front half of the pandemic in this country - and only in the first 30-60 days of deaths - so comparing those numbers with the annual mortality rate due to influenza is apples-to-oranges to say the least.

    You also seem not to realize that “compressing” multiple flu seasons of mortality into 30 days overwhelms the healthcare system and creates excess deaths due to non-covid-19 causes (which should be attributed to covid-19 in terms of discussing overall deadliness of the pandemic). And all this is despite the various levels of population lockdown throughout the country, without which the mortality would be significantly and likely exponentially higher.

    What I worry about is what happens when this pandemic finally spreads to the rural areas in this country where the population is older and sicker and the hospital/ICU coverage is much, much thinner. Already many rural hospitals had closed due to consolidation and budget problems even prior to this. What few hospitals that still serve the rural population are already being hit hard, because electives and other procedures (on insured population) that subsidize everything else have dried up (ERs in these areas bleed money badly since the patients who present there are often underinsured or uninsured and are frequently chronic patients who use the ER as their primary care).

    I pray to God that doesn’t happen, but I am not optimistic. Even if this pandemic turned out to be unexpectedly mild, a lot of rural hospitals are going to experience closures and worsened budgetary conditions, and the health service coverage for rural Americans is going to degrade even further. Who knows what that will do when the next wave of this (or another pandemic) virus hits?

    Replies: @UK, @res

    , @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    @Intelligent Dasein

    The elite class is the hardest hit by the virus. Skiers, partyers, etc. They panicked and put us into the shutdown.

    I hope it's the end of globalism, Chinese outsourcing, etc. etc. But more than likely things will just go back sportsball, globohomo and mass immigration as soon as things open up again.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Intelligent Dasein, I don't think in general I've agreed with your comments more than, say 50-75% over the years, but I am in agreement with this comment wholeheartedly. I looked through your comments just now to try to find one (that I'd thought was by you) about the big rift that this Kung Flu has been causing among the American population that cuts across the usual dividing lines.* First of all, you have been firing on all cylinders with your comments about this Infotainment Panic-Fest, but let me make my point now.

    The comment in question was about this new divide between those who are scared shitless for the whole nation and those who realize it's been blown way out of proportion, whether "for reasons" or simply due to general stupidity. I have seen this divide, including in my own family, in which it's getting mighty intense. Mr. Unz has written that we'll all know who's right (admitting it is another story) in a few months, but I say it will be apparent to those who want to know the truth in more like a year or two.

    The US annual death rate is something like 0.85%. With 330,000,000 people that means 2,800,000 people die in an average year and 23,000 in an average month, and 7,800 people during an average day. Most of them die, luckily at an old age, at home, in a nursing home, or after a few days in the hospital. I do get the idea that the availability of respirators and ICU beds is limiting and is causing more people to die earlier in the worse-hit areas. The reasons I wrote "a year or two" in the previous paragraph is that is when we will see whether there were really significantly more total American deaths, or just a bump or a few bumps in these deaths as some people, almost all older with other health problems, die earlier than they would have.

    .


    * The comment mentioned some anti-Trumpers who appreciate his position on this thing - if you recall this comment, yours or otherwise, from iSteve, please fill me in. (There's been so many posts on iSteve about the virus, so ...)

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Intelligent Dasein

    OK, that was getting long, so here's my main point, or really a question:

    This divide is not along the usual political lines, I don't think. My family is a good example of that. I'm not talking about the doling out of the MegaBucks by the Feral Gov., as the solution to the problem governments have caused. That is indeed political along the usual dividing lines.

    Where are we getting our widely-differing perspectives from? In my opinion, it's a matter of time spent in from of the idiot plate, but, especially with the young people who don't so much, but spent 10-25% of their waking hours looking at their little screens, the ease of keeping up with the numbers involved in this "horror" have them sucked in.*

    This severe flu variant is the best thing that happened to the Lyin' Press and the whole infotainment-industrial-complex since OJ! This time it's truly 24/7 for anyone who is addicted to news. Those, like myself, who think back to the previous 3 or 4 new virus strains out of E. Asia, and the normality of life with excess death rates of the same order-of-magnitude, and don't spend so much time with the infotainment, have a much different attitude.

    I am just so sick of hearing about this Kung Flu, not because I don't want advice that I don't like, but because it is being used to change the country. Every change that I've seen since the middle 1990s has been FOR THE WORSE, so that's what I expect. If people calmed the hell down, and got their eyes, ears, and minds off this for good while, I think they would see things differently.

    I'd like to read other commenters' including our host A.E.'s of course, opinions regarding this question. Why are we divided on the way to handle the Kung Flu?

    Right now, it's beautiful outside. We're going to the park (one kid's Mom has the same attitude as me, but that guy can't come today). We're going to throw the frisbee. We'll going hiking again sometime soon. Kids (least at my house) are learning in 3 hours what takes a day or two in school. Recess has been running from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours. Fresh air and vitamin D, bitchez!


    .

    * Look at Steve Sailer, an erudite guy with lots of common sense. If this were TEOTWAWKI due to this disease, I could see blogging 80% of posts about it. It's not! I could see doing a lot more blogging about the financial/economic fallout and what lies ahead due to this panic-fest, such as our Mr. Epigone here has done a few times already.

    Replies: @Talha, @Intelligent Dasein, @dfordoom, @Adam Smith, @Adam Smith

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @Intelligent Dasein

    My thinking at this point is we were heading towards the edge. Coronavirus pushed us over, but something was going to soon anyway. The economic dislocation that will characterize the next several years will initially try to be pinned on coronavirus, but it will become clear in time--after coronavirus has become like another strain of the flu--that the problems ran much deeper. Yossarian's Snowden, I'll call it.

    Replies: @Pontius

    , @Thea
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Boomers were actually drafted by the millions to fight in the unforgiving jungles or SEAsia. As a gen x my generation and later ones have had no equivalent sacrifice.

  3. Ron Unz – America underreacted.

    ID – America overreacted.

    First two comments exactly opposite 🙂

  4. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people...

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying "No Problem!" and "It's Just the Flu!!!" and now that they've found out they HAVE a problem and "It's NOT the Flu!" they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I've pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there's a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Replies: @UK, @22pp22, @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @A123, @obwandiyag, @Joe Stalin, @Audacious Epigone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean, @Thomm, @The Alarmist, @Thea, @Corvinus

  5. I’d like to see the data broken out into those 2 unfavorable categories separately. I know I’ve written this sort of thing for a decent number of your polls, but “unfriendly” can mean different things to different people too. By “enemy” do people mean economic enemy (which it basically is, because there is always competition, one they’ve been kicking our ass in as of late), or do they care that we must keep the sea lanes in the South China Sea open or something?

    It doesn’t seem to indicate much change, but I wonder if a question about the “Chinese people” would? There are some who take the origin of the virus, assumed by them to be the eating of exotic animals, as a reason to hate the Chinese people, while most just use the term “Chinese Flu” to indicate its origins, not any kind of blame.

    As far as the absolute numbers go, it does look like the over-45 set and/or R’s may still have Cold War era thoughts in their heads, or are they just wiser?

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Very little change in those two, with "unfriendly" over "enemy" by about 3-to-2 in both polls.

  6. @Intelligent Dasein

    Sentiments went virtually unchanged.
     
    That word, sentiments, probably explains why. It probably isn't very useful to ask ordinary people how they might feel about China. If I consult my gut, I don't have any particularly bad feelings about China or the Chinese people either. The subject is too large, vague, and far away. But even the most rudimentary rational analysis tells you that China should not be trusted. We've let China walk in and out of our country with every sort of technology and industrial secret they wanted. They've taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can't even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help. China has done a number on us, and we have only ourselves to blame. They're crafty and wily, and we're lazy and stupid. I doubt that hating China would lead to anything productive, but we've got to end this dysfunctional relationship.

    Apropos of that subject, my suspicion is that the corona lockdown has progressed too far to be reversed now. The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book), but the cultural and economic dislocations are not going to be reset to the status quo ante. We're on a path now that must be trodden to the end. The whole globalist system and its many political, social, and economic arrangements is coming apart. "It's a long road with no turning, pally," as Shelly Levene said.

    The metaphor here is not "This is our World War Two," which historically illiterate Boomer cosplay and manifest nonsense. This is, however, our World War One. This is the time when our sclerotic elites, comfortable for way too long and betraying a stunning lack of creativity and foresight, dragged the world into chaos and destruction over a minor incident, and fielded a system interlocking powers and tensions that could accomplish nothing but its own self-destruction at enormous cost.

    Replies: @obwandiyag, @obwandiyag, @YetAnotherAnon, @Twinkie, @LoutishAngloQuebecker, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Audacious Epigone, @Thea

    You’re a child. “They’ve taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can’t even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help” is false. Typical childish inability to see the forests for the treeses. Correction: “Our owners gave away and kiboshed our manufacturing and millions of jobs.” Don’t you understand what’s really going on?

    • Agree: Daniel H
  7. @Intelligent Dasein

    Sentiments went virtually unchanged.
     
    That word, sentiments, probably explains why. It probably isn't very useful to ask ordinary people how they might feel about China. If I consult my gut, I don't have any particularly bad feelings about China or the Chinese people either. The subject is too large, vague, and far away. But even the most rudimentary rational analysis tells you that China should not be trusted. We've let China walk in and out of our country with every sort of technology and industrial secret they wanted. They've taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can't even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help. China has done a number on us, and we have only ourselves to blame. They're crafty and wily, and we're lazy and stupid. I doubt that hating China would lead to anything productive, but we've got to end this dysfunctional relationship.

    Apropos of that subject, my suspicion is that the corona lockdown has progressed too far to be reversed now. The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book), but the cultural and economic dislocations are not going to be reset to the status quo ante. We're on a path now that must be trodden to the end. The whole globalist system and its many political, social, and economic arrangements is coming apart. "It's a long road with no turning, pally," as Shelly Levene said.

    The metaphor here is not "This is our World War Two," which historically illiterate Boomer cosplay and manifest nonsense. This is, however, our World War One. This is the time when our sclerotic elites, comfortable for way too long and betraying a stunning lack of creativity and foresight, dragged the world into chaos and destruction over a minor incident, and fielded a system interlocking powers and tensions that could accomplish nothing but its own self-destruction at enormous cost.

    Replies: @obwandiyag, @obwandiyag, @YetAnotherAnon, @Twinkie, @LoutishAngloQuebecker, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Audacious Epigone, @Thea

    You imbecile. You think it’s “Boomers” (OK, you call other people Boomers, they call you Shitheads) who made up that stupid comparison? And not young, shithead journalists. Who, by the way, made up the term, “Boomers.” You don’t know nothing. Go ahead, correct me.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    @obwandiyag

    The only dignity I will give to your comments is the bemused observation that, at the moment, you seem slightly more coherent than Ron Unz, which is a sign of strange days ahead.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @obwandiyag

  8. @obwandiyag
    @Intelligent Dasein

    You imbecile. You think it's "Boomers" (OK, you call other people Boomers, they call you Shitheads) who made up that stupid comparison? And not young, shithead journalists. Who, by the way, made up the term, "Boomers." You don't know nothing. Go ahead, correct me.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    The only dignity I will give to your comments is the bemused observation that, at the moment, you seem slightly more coherent than Ron Unz, which is a sign of strange days ahead.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @Intelligent Dasein

    You actually read and respond to Old Windy Bag?!

    Put that troll on ignore already.

    , @obwandiyag
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Dignity? You're a child. You wouldn't know what dignity is in your short pants. And don't tell me you don't wear shorts.

  9. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people...

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying "No Problem!" and "It's Just the Flu!!!" and now that they've found out they HAVE a problem and "It's NOT the Flu!" they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I've pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there's a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Replies: @UK, @22pp22, @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @A123, @obwandiyag, @Joe Stalin, @Audacious Epigone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean, @Thomm, @The Alarmist, @Thea, @Corvinus

    Your ascribing far too much competence to humanity. What many people on this site see as a great conspiracy or a germ war attack is really just a giant cock-up on all sides, including China’s. Only Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore come out of this well.

    However, you may find this interesting.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  10. @Intelligent Dasein
    @obwandiyag

    The only dignity I will give to your comments is the bemused observation that, at the moment, you seem slightly more coherent than Ron Unz, which is a sign of strange days ahead.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @obwandiyag

    You actually read and respond to Old Windy Bag?!

    Put that troll on ignore already.

  11. What? Is this thing still on?

    it’s a common problem right now

  12. @Intelligent Dasein

    Sentiments went virtually unchanged.
     
    That word, sentiments, probably explains why. It probably isn't very useful to ask ordinary people how they might feel about China. If I consult my gut, I don't have any particularly bad feelings about China or the Chinese people either. The subject is too large, vague, and far away. But even the most rudimentary rational analysis tells you that China should not be trusted. We've let China walk in and out of our country with every sort of technology and industrial secret they wanted. They've taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can't even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help. China has done a number on us, and we have only ourselves to blame. They're crafty and wily, and we're lazy and stupid. I doubt that hating China would lead to anything productive, but we've got to end this dysfunctional relationship.

    Apropos of that subject, my suspicion is that the corona lockdown has progressed too far to be reversed now. The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book), but the cultural and economic dislocations are not going to be reset to the status quo ante. We're on a path now that must be trodden to the end. The whole globalist system and its many political, social, and economic arrangements is coming apart. "It's a long road with no turning, pally," as Shelly Levene said.

    The metaphor here is not "This is our World War Two," which historically illiterate Boomer cosplay and manifest nonsense. This is, however, our World War One. This is the time when our sclerotic elites, comfortable for way too long and betraying a stunning lack of creativity and foresight, dragged the world into chaos and destruction over a minor incident, and fielded a system interlocking powers and tensions that could accomplish nothing but its own self-destruction at enormous cost.

    Replies: @obwandiyag, @obwandiyag, @YetAnotherAnon, @Twinkie, @LoutishAngloQuebecker, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Audacious Epigone, @Thea

    We’ve let China walk in and out of our country with every sort of technology and industrial secret they wanted. They’ve taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can’t even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help. China has done a number on us, and we have only ourselves to blame. “

    The “we” who let China walk in and out, and who are to blame, are not the same people as the “we” who can’t get basic necessities. It’s not Joe Sixpack who moved manufacturing to China.

    The first “we” have plenty of masks, tests, hazmat suits if they want them.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    @YetAnotherAnon

    You got it. Intelligent Dasein made unintelligent mistake. Blaming China for something that is the fault of our owners. Of the filthy rich. In the US and Europe. These people who think the rich are our friends kill me. They must just watch TV all day.

  13. US propaganda works.

  14. @Intelligent Dasein

    Sentiments went virtually unchanged.
     
    That word, sentiments, probably explains why. It probably isn't very useful to ask ordinary people how they might feel about China. If I consult my gut, I don't have any particularly bad feelings about China or the Chinese people either. The subject is too large, vague, and far away. But even the most rudimentary rational analysis tells you that China should not be trusted. We've let China walk in and out of our country with every sort of technology and industrial secret they wanted. They've taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can't even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help. China has done a number on us, and we have only ourselves to blame. They're crafty and wily, and we're lazy and stupid. I doubt that hating China would lead to anything productive, but we've got to end this dysfunctional relationship.

    Apropos of that subject, my suspicion is that the corona lockdown has progressed too far to be reversed now. The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book), but the cultural and economic dislocations are not going to be reset to the status quo ante. We're on a path now that must be trodden to the end. The whole globalist system and its many political, social, and economic arrangements is coming apart. "It's a long road with no turning, pally," as Shelly Levene said.

    The metaphor here is not "This is our World War Two," which historically illiterate Boomer cosplay and manifest nonsense. This is, however, our World War One. This is the time when our sclerotic elites, comfortable for way too long and betraying a stunning lack of creativity and foresight, dragged the world into chaos and destruction over a minor incident, and fielded a system interlocking powers and tensions that could accomplish nothing but its own self-destruction at enormous cost.

    Replies: @obwandiyag, @obwandiyag, @YetAnotherAnon, @Twinkie, @LoutishAngloQuebecker, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Audacious Epigone, @Thea

    The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book

    Well, NichtIntelligent Dasein, I am mildly amused that you have moved on from “just a bad flu” level of mortality to “three or four bad flue seasons compressed into one year.” No doubt, should the rate increase further, you will say, “This is still nothingburger, it’s only ten bad seasons compressed into half a year! So, basically, still just flu-like.”

    You seem not to realize that we are still in the front half of the pandemic in this country – and only in the first 30-60 days of deaths – so comparing those numbers with the annual mortality rate due to influenza is apples-to-oranges to say the least.

    You also seem not to realize that “compressing” multiple flu seasons of mortality into 30 days overwhelms the healthcare system and creates excess deaths due to non-covid-19 causes (which should be attributed to covid-19 in terms of discussing overall deadliness of the pandemic). And all this is despite the various levels of population lockdown throughout the country, without which the mortality would be significantly and likely exponentially higher.

    What I worry about is what happens when this pandemic finally spreads to the rural areas in this country where the population is older and sicker and the hospital/ICU coverage is much, much thinner. Already many rural hospitals had closed due to consolidation and budget problems even prior to this. What few hospitals that still serve the rural population are already being hit hard, because electives and other procedures (on insured population) that subsidize everything else have dried up (ERs in these areas bleed money badly since the patients who present there are often underinsured or uninsured and are frequently chronic patients who use the ER as their primary care).

    I pray to God that doesn’t happen, but I am not optimistic. Even if this pandemic turned out to be unexpectedly mild, a lot of rural hospitals are going to experience closures and worsened budgetary conditions, and the health service coverage for rural Americans is going to degrade even further. Who knows what that will do when the next wave of this (or another pandemic) virus hits?

    • Replies: @UK
    @Twinkie


    I pray to God that doesn’t happen, but I am not optimistic. Even if this pandemic turned out to be unexpectedly mild, a lot of rural hospitals are going to experience closures and worsened budgetary conditions, and the health service coverage for rural Americans is going to degrade even further. Who knows what that will do when the next wave of this (or another pandemic) virus hits?
     
    You're bizarre. An unimaginably dystopian plan is enacted and this is your worry...
    , @res
    @Twinkie

    This site looks at US health system capacity and estimates a peak mid-late May. Any thoughts on that?
    https://qventus.com/blog/predicting-the-effects-of-the-covid-pandemic-on-us-health-system-capacity/

    Replies: @A123, @Twinkie

  15. 3811306

    just a giant cock-up on all sides, including China’s. Only Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore come out of this well.

    Moreover, I think the stats from China are highly suspect/unreliable, and it is likely that the true number of deaths is substantially greater there.

    The numbers from Singapore, South Korea, and Taiwan are not only smaller, but much more reliable. The latter two, in particular, have opposition parties and highly critical media who scream bloody murder if there is a cover up or a scandal. In point of fact, the main reason the South Koreans have done really well this time is that a previous administration took a big hit with the public when there was MERS in South Korea (it had the largest outbreak outside the Middle East), so there was significant preparation and planning this time from the lessons learned from that fiasco.

    Sometimes a little trouble earlier wakes up people and readies them for the big one… like a vaccine.

    • Agree: Yahya K.
    • Replies: @Yahya K.
    @Twinkie


    In point of fact, the main reason the South Koreans have done really well this time is that a previous administration took a big hit with the public when there was MERS in South Korea (it had the largest outbreak outside the Middle East), so there was significant preparation and planning this time from the lessons learned from that fiasco.
     
    "Every cloud has a silver lining".

    It begs the question: could the corona-virus have an unforeseen positive impact down the line too?

    Say, if there is a plague-like pandemic in the future?

    Who knows.

    Replies: @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @Twinkie, @Mark G.

  16. UK says:
    @Twinkie
    @Intelligent Dasein


    The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book
     
    Well, NichtIntelligent Dasein, I am mildly amused that you have moved on from “just a bad flu” level of mortality to “three or four bad flue seasons compressed into one year.” No doubt, should the rate increase further, you will say, “This is still nothingburger, it’s only ten bad seasons compressed into half a year! So, basically, still just flu-like.”

    You seem not to realize that we are still in the front half of the pandemic in this country - and only in the first 30-60 days of deaths - so comparing those numbers with the annual mortality rate due to influenza is apples-to-oranges to say the least.

    You also seem not to realize that “compressing” multiple flu seasons of mortality into 30 days overwhelms the healthcare system and creates excess deaths due to non-covid-19 causes (which should be attributed to covid-19 in terms of discussing overall deadliness of the pandemic). And all this is despite the various levels of population lockdown throughout the country, without which the mortality would be significantly and likely exponentially higher.

    What I worry about is what happens when this pandemic finally spreads to the rural areas in this country where the population is older and sicker and the hospital/ICU coverage is much, much thinner. Already many rural hospitals had closed due to consolidation and budget problems even prior to this. What few hospitals that still serve the rural population are already being hit hard, because electives and other procedures (on insured population) that subsidize everything else have dried up (ERs in these areas bleed money badly since the patients who present there are often underinsured or uninsured and are frequently chronic patients who use the ER as their primary care).

    I pray to God that doesn’t happen, but I am not optimistic. Even if this pandemic turned out to be unexpectedly mild, a lot of rural hospitals are going to experience closures and worsened budgetary conditions, and the health service coverage for rural Americans is going to degrade even further. Who knows what that will do when the next wave of this (or another pandemic) virus hits?

    Replies: @UK, @res

    I pray to God that doesn’t happen, but I am not optimistic. Even if this pandemic turned out to be unexpectedly mild, a lot of rural hospitals are going to experience closures and worsened budgetary conditions, and the health service coverage for rural Americans is going to degrade even further. Who knows what that will do when the next wave of this (or another pandemic) virus hits?

    You’re bizarre. An unimaginably dystopian plan is enacted and this is your worry…

  17. @Intelligent Dasein

    Sentiments went virtually unchanged.
     
    That word, sentiments, probably explains why. It probably isn't very useful to ask ordinary people how they might feel about China. If I consult my gut, I don't have any particularly bad feelings about China or the Chinese people either. The subject is too large, vague, and far away. But even the most rudimentary rational analysis tells you that China should not be trusted. We've let China walk in and out of our country with every sort of technology and industrial secret they wanted. They've taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can't even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help. China has done a number on us, and we have only ourselves to blame. They're crafty and wily, and we're lazy and stupid. I doubt that hating China would lead to anything productive, but we've got to end this dysfunctional relationship.

    Apropos of that subject, my suspicion is that the corona lockdown has progressed too far to be reversed now. The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book), but the cultural and economic dislocations are not going to be reset to the status quo ante. We're on a path now that must be trodden to the end. The whole globalist system and its many political, social, and economic arrangements is coming apart. "It's a long road with no turning, pally," as Shelly Levene said.

    The metaphor here is not "This is our World War Two," which historically illiterate Boomer cosplay and manifest nonsense. This is, however, our World War One. This is the time when our sclerotic elites, comfortable for way too long and betraying a stunning lack of creativity and foresight, dragged the world into chaos and destruction over a minor incident, and fielded a system interlocking powers and tensions that could accomplish nothing but its own self-destruction at enormous cost.

    Replies: @obwandiyag, @obwandiyag, @YetAnotherAnon, @Twinkie, @LoutishAngloQuebecker, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Audacious Epigone, @Thea

    The elite class is the hardest hit by the virus. Skiers, partyers, etc. They panicked and put us into the shutdown.

    I hope it’s the end of globalism, Chinese outsourcing, etc. etc. But more than likely things will just go back sportsball, globohomo and mass immigration as soon as things open up again.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker


    The elite class is the hardest hit by the virus.
     
    Perhaps initially, but the numbers from NYC and L.A. show that lower middle class and lower class zip codes are the hardest hit while East Asian and affluent white areas are not nearly as afflicted.
  18. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    @Intelligent Dasein

    The elite class is the hardest hit by the virus. Skiers, partyers, etc. They panicked and put us into the shutdown.

    I hope it's the end of globalism, Chinese outsourcing, etc. etc. But more than likely things will just go back sportsball, globohomo and mass immigration as soon as things open up again.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    The elite class is the hardest hit by the virus.

    Perhaps initially, but the numbers from NYC and L.A. show that lower middle class and lower class zip codes are the hardest hit while East Asian and affluent white areas are not nearly as afflicted.

  19. Yahya K. says:
    @Twinkie

    just a giant cock-up on all sides, including China’s. Only Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore come out of this well.
     
    Moreover, I think the stats from China are highly suspect/unreliable, and it is likely that the true number of deaths is substantially greater there.

    The numbers from Singapore, South Korea, and Taiwan are not only smaller, but much more reliable. The latter two, in particular, have opposition parties and highly critical media who scream bloody murder if there is a cover up or a scandal. In point of fact, the main reason the South Koreans have done really well this time is that a previous administration took a big hit with the public when there was MERS in South Korea (it had the largest outbreak outside the Middle East), so there was significant preparation and planning this time from the lessons learned from that fiasco.

    Sometimes a little trouble earlier wakes up people and readies them for the big one... like a vaccine.

    Replies: @Yahya K.

    In point of fact, the main reason the South Koreans have done really well this time is that a previous administration took a big hit with the public when there was MERS in South Korea (it had the largest outbreak outside the Middle East), so there was significant preparation and planning this time from the lessons learned from that fiasco.

    “Every cloud has a silver lining”.

    It begs the question: could the corona-virus have an unforeseen positive impact down the line too?

    Say, if there is a plague-like pandemic in the future?

    Who knows.

    • Replies: @Elmer's Washable School Glue
    @Yahya K.

    I think it might, even if just in a general way. I mean, we had these wacky claims in Europe that "travel restrictions are counterproductive" toward the beginning. No one will be making that mistake again. We also now know that lockdowns do have a positive impact.

    Maybe, as bad as this is, we should be glad the it only has a ~2% death rate rather than a 20% one, to get these kind of things straightened out before a virus with the latter hits.

    , @Twinkie
    @Yahya K.


    It begs the question: could the corona-virus have an unforeseen positive impact down the line too?
     
    Of course... for the survivors.

    The Black Death was great for the surviving Europeans. On the other hand, the plagues that hit the Roman/Byzantine Empires, not so much.
    , @Mark G.
    @Yahya K.

    The positive effects of the epidemic is that next time we will be more prepared for an epidemic. There will be more masks, hospital beds and ventilators. We will also be able to look back and see what worked this time and what didn't work.

    The negative effects of the epidemic are the people passing away before their time and the psychological effects on the survivors. Most of the negative effects aren't going to be from the disease itself but the long term economic effects of the government shutting everything down and bailing everyone out. The economy wasn't doing that well before this, with increasing government interventions to try to keep it afloat. This may be the coup de grace to the American economy that kills off American prosperity for generations to come.

  20. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people...

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying "No Problem!" and "It's Just the Flu!!!" and now that they've found out they HAVE a problem and "It's NOT the Flu!" they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I've pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there's a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Replies: @UK, @22pp22, @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @A123, @obwandiyag, @Joe Stalin, @Audacious Epigone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean, @Thomm, @The Alarmist, @Thea, @Corvinus

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump.

    I largely agree with the sentiment expressed here but I don’t see the American government in particular as acting any worse then the Western average. Did Italy or the UK perform any better? Sweden, often the object of fascinated admiration among leftists, *still* hasn’t institiued a lockdown.

    Also, I’ll throw this out there: if the US government had issued early and comprehensive flight bans from China (and Europe when the time came), there would have been no need for a lockdown. And the people groaning the most about those bans when they did arrive (late) were complaining that Trump was being *too* severe, that he *shouldn’t* have limited travel. This is part of a pattern: people whine and kvetch about not wanting shutdown measures to prevent damage to the “economy,” despite the fact that every day the measures are delayed, cumulative economic damage will increase.

    Coronavirus reflects poorly on the entire West, revealing its horribly incompetant and rotting state instiutions, in stark contrast to the incredible relative efficiency of China, Russia, Vietnam, etc. Even India under evil demagogue Modi has been far more competant in its response. (See: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/quarantine-india-covid-19-coronavirus/) Unfortunately media propganda prevents both left and right from seeing “liberal democracy” as the shitshow it has been revealed to be.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Elmer's Washable School Glue

    Had Trump came in fighting for the America First agenda he campaigned on and refused to relent, he would've looked like the ultimate seer. The majority of Americans would be Mark Antony trying to force the crown on his head. Instead it's dysfunction all the way down. Get used to it.

    Replies: @A123

  21. @Yahya K.
    @Twinkie


    In point of fact, the main reason the South Koreans have done really well this time is that a previous administration took a big hit with the public when there was MERS in South Korea (it had the largest outbreak outside the Middle East), so there was significant preparation and planning this time from the lessons learned from that fiasco.
     
    "Every cloud has a silver lining".

    It begs the question: could the corona-virus have an unforeseen positive impact down the line too?

    Say, if there is a plague-like pandemic in the future?

    Who knows.

    Replies: @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @Twinkie, @Mark G.

    I think it might, even if just in a general way. I mean, we had these wacky claims in Europe that “travel restrictions are counterproductive” toward the beginning. No one will be making that mistake again. We also now know that lockdowns do have a positive impact.

    Maybe, as bad as this is, we should be glad the it only has a ~2% death rate rather than a 20% one, to get these kind of things straightened out before a virus with the latter hits.

  22. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people...

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying "No Problem!" and "It's Just the Flu!!!" and now that they've found out they HAVE a problem and "It's NOT the Flu!" they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I've pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there's a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Replies: @UK, @22pp22, @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @A123, @obwandiyag, @Joe Stalin, @Audacious Epigone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean, @Thomm, @The Alarmist, @Thea, @Corvinus

    Finally, there’s a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    An attack with a bio-WMD invites a response with a nuclear-WMD.

    How does a total forces exchange with nuclear weapons help the Deep State / NeoConDemocrats?

    The Deep State is trying to overthrow the Constitution so that it can take the land. That is what the bogus impeachment charging “Obstruction of Nothing” was for. Turning the U.S. into a nuclear wasteland does not align with their depraved goals.

    An accidental release from the Wuhan bio-weapon facility remains much more plausible than a false-flag attempt to start war.

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @A123


    An attack with a bio-WMD invites a response with a nuclear-WMD.
     
    The advantage of a bioweapons attack is that is has at least a certain amount of "plausible deniability." If the attack had devastated China as much as it now looks to devastate America, do you really think China would have launched a nuclear attack against the US?

    Fortunately, unlike America, China is extremely competent and managed to stamp out the Coronavirus with minimal loss of life. Meanwhile, I think we'll be lucky to avoid 1M American deaths by early summer.

    Here's what I wrote five weeks ago, while Trump and all the pro-Trump morons were still saying "It's Just the Flu!!!":

    Consider a particularly ironic outcome of this situation, not particularly likely but certainly possible…

    Everyone knows that America’s ruling elites are criminal, crazy, and also extremely incompetent.

    So perhaps the coronavirus outbreak was indeed a deliberate biowarfare attack against China, hitting that nation just before Lunar New Year, the worst possible time to produce a permanent nationwide pandemic. However, the PRC responded with remarkable speed and efficiency, implementing by far the largest quarantine in human history, and the deadly disease now seems to be in decline there.

    Meanwhile, the disease naturally leaks back into the US, and despite all the advance warning, our totally incompetent government mismanages the situation, producing a huge national health disaster, and the collapse of our economy and decrepit political system.

    As I said, not particularly likely, but certainly a very fitting end to the American Empire…
     
    https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/who-made-coronavirus-was-it-the-u-s-israel-or-china-itself/?showcomments#comment-3753228

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @A123, @JohnnyWalker123

    , @Corvinus
    @A123

    "The Deep State is trying to overthrow the Constitution so that it can take the land."

    Wait, I thought that the Covid-19 pandemic would finally bring globalism and immigration to its knees, and the Jewish banking cabal will come to a screeching halt!

    Thanks, E. Michael Jones!

    https://culturewars.com/news/the-coronavirus-and-the-culture-war


    “Just as the Black Death, which carried off 40 percent of Europe’s population in the mid-14th century, signaled the end of the Middle Ages in de Mattei’s eyes, so the coronavirus pandemic signals the end of the American Empire and the era of Globalization, as practiced by oligarchs like George Soros. Globalization is both the perpetrator and ultimate victim of the current crisis because it “destroys space and pulverizes distances.” But because God is in charge of history, Globalization finds itself subjected to the cunning of reason which has created “social distance, the isolation of the individual and quarantine,” all of which are “diametrically opposed to the ‘open society’ hoped for by George Soros.” De Mattei believes that the pandemic is bringing an end to “the world without borders.”
     
  23. @Yahya K.
    @Twinkie


    In point of fact, the main reason the South Koreans have done really well this time is that a previous administration took a big hit with the public when there was MERS in South Korea (it had the largest outbreak outside the Middle East), so there was significant preparation and planning this time from the lessons learned from that fiasco.
     
    "Every cloud has a silver lining".

    It begs the question: could the corona-virus have an unforeseen positive impact down the line too?

    Say, if there is a plague-like pandemic in the future?

    Who knows.

    Replies: @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @Twinkie, @Mark G.

    It begs the question: could the corona-virus have an unforeseen positive impact down the line too?

    Of course… for the survivors.

    The Black Death was great for the surviving Europeans. On the other hand, the plagues that hit the Roman/Byzantine Empires, not so much.

  24. @A123
    @Ron Unz


    Finally, there’s a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:
     
    An attack with a bio-WMD invites a response with a nuclear-WMD.

    How does a total forces exchange with nuclear weapons help the Deep State / NeoConDemocrats?

    The Deep State is trying to overthrow the Constitution so that it can take the land. That is what the bogus impeachment charging "Obstruction of Nothing" was for. Turning the U.S. into a nuclear wasteland does not align with their depraved goals.

    An accidental release from the Wuhan bio-weapon facility remains much more plausible than a false-flag attempt to start war.

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @Corvinus

    An attack with a bio-WMD invites a response with a nuclear-WMD.

    The advantage of a bioweapons attack is that is has at least a certain amount of “plausible deniability.” If the attack had devastated China as much as it now looks to devastate America, do you really think China would have launched a nuclear attack against the US?

    Fortunately, unlike America, China is extremely competent and managed to stamp out the Coronavirus with minimal loss of life. Meanwhile, I think we’ll be lucky to avoid 1M American deaths by early summer.

    Here’s what I wrote five weeks ago, while Trump and all the pro-Trump morons were still saying “It’s Just the Flu!!!”:

    Consider a particularly ironic outcome of this situation, not particularly likely but certainly possible…

    Everyone knows that America’s ruling elites are criminal, crazy, and also extremely incompetent.

    So perhaps the coronavirus outbreak was indeed a deliberate biowarfare attack against China, hitting that nation just before Lunar New Year, the worst possible time to produce a permanent nationwide pandemic. However, the PRC responded with remarkable speed and efficiency, implementing by far the largest quarantine in human history, and the deadly disease now seems to be in decline there.

    Meanwhile, the disease naturally leaks back into the US, and despite all the advance warning, our totally incompetent government mismanages the situation, producing a huge national health disaster, and the collapse of our economy and decrepit political system.

    As I said, not particularly likely, but certainly a very fitting end to the American Empire…

    https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/who-made-coronavirus-was-it-the-u-s-israel-or-china-itself/?showcomments#comment-3753228

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Ron Unz


    Everyone knows that America’s ruling elites are criminal, crazy, and also extremely incompetent.
     
    Agreed, but would they -- and those below them who would have had to carry out the details -- be so stupid as to ignore what I believe is the wisdom arrived at early in history by military men, i.e. that bio-attacks are worse than useless because blowback from the weapons can occur, literally on a battlefield if the winds change, or figuratively when potentially-infected, asymptomatic-yet-contagious citizens from your target country travel daily to countries all over the world, including yours?

    I am not taking sides in this debate, but I do wonder if even our leaders would piss into the wind like that.

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @Ron Unz

    , @A123
    @Ron Unz


    The advantage of a bioweapons attack is that is has at least a certain amount of “plausible deniability.” If the attack had devastated China as much as it now looks to devastate America, do you really think China would have launched a nuclear attack against the US?
     
    Would China nuke the U.S. if:

    -- There were 10MM+ dead in China and the situation was getting worse.
    -- CCP had, to their belief, plausible evidence pointing to a U.S. weapons lab as the source.

    Probably *YES*.
    ____

    Could a treasonous Deep State black ops team have certainty, in advance, that China would implement measures that have had some success?

    It is hard to predict what any government will do in a crisis. And, the math shows that a few weeks can change the outcome by an order of magnitude.

    Would you throw those dice with the fate of the U.S., possibly the human race, on the line?

    The NeoConDemocrats are outrageous. Intentionally attacking China's civilian population is more than outrageous, it is insane. I honestly do not see a plausible case for risking WW III.
    ______

    If black ops team had wide access to a variety of bio-WMD, Why COVID-19?

    Releasing a rice plant blight to make China reliant on the U.S. for food would be a much more plausible plan to end China's resistance to Globalism. Submit or Starve.

    This virus is an implausible choice. The high spread rate and long incubation period guaranteed a world wide escape. The consequences are random and unpredictable. It is hard to conceive of any military scenario where COVID-19 would be the weapon of choice.

    If COVID-19 represents an interim research step, not a battlefield ready weapon, that points to an accidental release from the Wuhan bio-weapon laboratory as the most plausible scenario.

    PEACE 😷
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    @Ron Unz

    The UK claims they've decreased their R0 from 2.6 to 0.6

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/uk-r0-supposed-to-have-fallen-from-2-6-to-0-6/

    Do you find this at all plausible?

    If they've been successful, why does the below resemble an exponential function?

    https://i.ibb.co/1ZbCFXn/Untitled999.png

    Something seems off....

  25. Here is the latest graph, current as of 04/01/2020

    Here are the essential takeaways. Every country, South Korea excepted, is following the same trajectory regardless of which suite of possible social distancing measures is adopted. Also, every country is flattening considerably once they rise above the 0.1% mortality rate.

    In other words, social distancing is having no effect other than creating social and economic chaos. Other than tried and true prophylactic measures such as hand-washing and mask-wearing, there is nothing anybody can do to stop the spread of the virus, but the good news is it really isn’t necessary to bother trying. The total death rate will level off at something not significantly higher than 0.1% of the worst affected populations (the 0.3% figure bandied about looks to be a good guess at the upper bound), with virtually all of those deaths occuring among the very old and/or very sick.

    It’s three flu seasons rolled in to one, almost exactly. Not insignificant, but very far from being the end of the world. But as I mentioned in my post above, the virus itself is an afterthought at this point. The changing world going forward is now the subject of primary concern. It was no coincidence that this overblown response, in itself a permanent possibility of our state apparatus, happened to occur just now. For some reason, a subtle mood shift took place all over the world at about the same moment, the flock changed direction, and globalism as we knew it was given up with a shrug. The fallout from this event will be with us for a long, long time. The responsible ones among us must start to look at it and analyze it.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Thank you for sharing that. It is very interesting and encouraging. Those curves do seem to be flattening as they go through the blue area, as I thought they might. Yes, worse than a flu season, but still tapering off, the mortality rate falling while case numbers still accelerate -- as some of us speculated might happen. As you say, it is running out of "the very old and/or very sick."

    , @Mark G.
    @Intelligent Dasein

    It will be interesting to see if the graphs end up looking like a bell shaped curve with equal numbers of deaths before and after the peak. Is there any information available about past epidemics and what their graphs looked like?

    , @Dumbo
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Yes, the "social distancing" thing (euphemism) at most slows it down (if that) but it doesn't stop it. Actually countries with lockdown seem to have similar number of cases with countries with no or less lockdown. Sweden may be a case study.

    I think it's been a while that the powers that be were looking for a pandemic, and this one came in handy. I think the real problem from this will be economic, as well as social and political (countries will become more totalitarian, globalist democracy free-market will be substituted by more authoritarian forms of control).

    , @Twinkie
    @Intelligent Dasein

    It’s almost amusing that the memory of your past comments has disappeared so quickly. Remember this from just a few days ago?

    https://www.unz.com/anepigone/rock-and-a-hard-place/#comment-3799902
    https://i2.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/corona-deaths-20200327.png?w=721&ssl=1


    It looks like Italy and Spain are starting to level off without yet breaking above the flu zone.
     
    Your “nothingburger” goal Post keeps moving.
    , @Ron Unz
    @Intelligent Dasein


    The total death rate will level off at something not significantly higher than 0.1% of the worst affected populations (the 0.3% figure bandied about looks to be a good guess at the upper bound)
     
    Well, I'm the wild-eyed lunatic warning that we might have as many as a million or more deaths by early summer.

    Meanwhile, you're the zealous debunker, calling this a "nothingburger" and arguing that a 0.3% death rate "looks to be a good guess at the upper bound."

    And 0.3% of America's 330M population is...a million deaths!

    It's nice to see that the ongoing facts are beginning to cause both sides on this debate to converge to roughly similar positions...

    Replies: @Johnny Rico, @Intelligent Dasein

  26. @Ron Unz
    @A123


    An attack with a bio-WMD invites a response with a nuclear-WMD.
     
    The advantage of a bioweapons attack is that is has at least a certain amount of "plausible deniability." If the attack had devastated China as much as it now looks to devastate America, do you really think China would have launched a nuclear attack against the US?

    Fortunately, unlike America, China is extremely competent and managed to stamp out the Coronavirus with minimal loss of life. Meanwhile, I think we'll be lucky to avoid 1M American deaths by early summer.

    Here's what I wrote five weeks ago, while Trump and all the pro-Trump morons were still saying "It's Just the Flu!!!":

    Consider a particularly ironic outcome of this situation, not particularly likely but certainly possible…

    Everyone knows that America’s ruling elites are criminal, crazy, and also extremely incompetent.

    So perhaps the coronavirus outbreak was indeed a deliberate biowarfare attack against China, hitting that nation just before Lunar New Year, the worst possible time to produce a permanent nationwide pandemic. However, the PRC responded with remarkable speed and efficiency, implementing by far the largest quarantine in human history, and the deadly disease now seems to be in decline there.

    Meanwhile, the disease naturally leaks back into the US, and despite all the advance warning, our totally incompetent government mismanages the situation, producing a huge national health disaster, and the collapse of our economy and decrepit political system.

    As I said, not particularly likely, but certainly a very fitting end to the American Empire…
     
    https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/who-made-coronavirus-was-it-the-u-s-israel-or-china-itself/?showcomments#comment-3753228

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @A123, @JohnnyWalker123

    Everyone knows that America’s ruling elites are criminal, crazy, and also extremely incompetent.

    Agreed, but would they — and those below them who would have had to carry out the details — be so stupid as to ignore what I believe is the wisdom arrived at early in history by military men, i.e. that bio-attacks are worse than useless because blowback from the weapons can occur, literally on a battlefield if the winds change, or figuratively when potentially-infected, asymptomatic-yet-contagious citizens from your target country travel daily to countries all over the world, including yours?

    I am not taking sides in this debate, but I do wonder if even our leaders would piss into the wind like that.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Agreed, but would they — and those below them who would have had to carry out the details — be so stupid as to ignore what I believe is the wisdom arrived at early in history by military men, i.e. that bio-attacks are worse than useless because blowback from the weapons can occur, literally on a battlefield if the winds change, or figuratively when potentially-infected, asymptomatic-yet-contagious citizens from your target country travel daily to countries all over the world, including yours?
     
    Well sure, it would have been *astonishingly* stupid and reckless. But if (as seems reasonably likely), America will suffer a devastated economy and maybe a million or more deaths because the leadership totally ignored the possibility of the Coronavirus spreading here...well, they've proven themselves to be astonishingly stupid and reckless.

    Also don't forget, after SARS broke out in East Asia in the early-2000s, America took little action, yet it never spread here. So Deep State Neocons could have (foolishly) believed that a bioweapon attack on China (and Iran) would also not produce any substantial US blowback.

    Replies: @Antiwar7, @Audacious Epigone

    , @Ron Unz
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Actually, I might as well expand a little on the fairly strong circumstantial evidence that Coronavirus was an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) launched by the Deep State Neocons.

    China was hit at the worst possible time, and if not for its astonishing effort in quickly locking down 700 million Chinese, it would have suffered exactly the sort of devastation that America is now experiencing, but in our case brought about entirely by our totally incompetent national government.

    But consider Iran. The only political elites anywhere in the world who have so far died from the Coronavirus are the Iranian ones, who began to fall ill before the outbreak in Italy was even getting much attention noticeable. Various Neocons were even sending out Tweets bragging about all the high-ranking Iranians who were dying of the Coronavirus.

    When you look at the timing of their deaths, they were probably infected just three or four weeks after America had assassinated Iran's top military leader. Talk about *astonishing* coincidences.

    Suppose the Gambino and Columbo crime families in NYC are in a bloody turf war, and a Gambino capo is found shot to death. Is there any proof who did it? No, but most people probably have a pretty good guess...

    Replies: @UK, @Achmed E. Newman, @A123

  27. @Intelligent Dasein
    Here is the latest graph, current as of 04/01/2020

    https://i1.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/corona-deaths-20200401.png?w=717&ssl=1

    Here are the essential takeaways. Every country, South Korea excepted, is following the same trajectory regardless of which suite of possible social distancing measures is adopted. Also, every country is flattening considerably once they rise above the 0.1% mortality rate.

    In other words, social distancing is having no effect other than creating social and economic chaos. Other than tried and true prophylactic measures such as hand-washing and mask-wearing, there is nothing anybody can do to stop the spread of the virus, but the good news is it really isn't necessary to bother trying. The total death rate will level off at something not significantly higher than 0.1% of the worst affected populations (the 0.3% figure bandied about looks to be a good guess at the upper bound), with virtually all of those deaths occuring among the very old and/or very sick.

    It's three flu seasons rolled in to one, almost exactly. Not insignificant, but very far from being the end of the world. But as I mentioned in my post above, the virus itself is an afterthought at this point. The changing world going forward is now the subject of primary concern. It was no coincidence that this overblown response, in itself a permanent possibility of our state apparatus, happened to occur just now. For some reason, a subtle mood shift took place all over the world at about the same moment, the flock changed direction, and globalism as we knew it was given up with a shrug. The fallout from this event will be with us for a long, long time. The responsible ones among us must start to look at it and analyze it.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Mark G., @Dumbo, @Twinkie, @Ron Unz

    Thank you for sharing that. It is very interesting and encouraging. Those curves do seem to be flattening as they go through the blue area, as I thought they might. Yes, worse than a flu season, but still tapering off, the mortality rate falling while case numbers still accelerate — as some of us speculated might happen. As you say, it is running out of “the very old and/or very sick.”

  28. Thank you for sharing that.

    You’re very welcome, my friend. I hope you got a chance to see the link to the Willis Eschenbach article at WattsUpWithThat. He’s the guy who makes these graphs, and he’s written a whole post questioning the efficacy of the lockdown.

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/04/01/do-lockdowns-work/

  29. @Yahya K.
    @Twinkie


    In point of fact, the main reason the South Koreans have done really well this time is that a previous administration took a big hit with the public when there was MERS in South Korea (it had the largest outbreak outside the Middle East), so there was significant preparation and planning this time from the lessons learned from that fiasco.
     
    "Every cloud has a silver lining".

    It begs the question: could the corona-virus have an unforeseen positive impact down the line too?

    Say, if there is a plague-like pandemic in the future?

    Who knows.

    Replies: @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @Twinkie, @Mark G.

    The positive effects of the epidemic is that next time we will be more prepared for an epidemic. There will be more masks, hospital beds and ventilators. We will also be able to look back and see what worked this time and what didn’t work.

    The negative effects of the epidemic are the people passing away before their time and the psychological effects on the survivors. Most of the negative effects aren’t going to be from the disease itself but the long term economic effects of the government shutting everything down and bailing everyone out. The economy wasn’t doing that well before this, with increasing government interventions to try to keep it afloat. This may be the coup de grace to the American economy that kills off American prosperity for generations to come.

  30. @Intelligent Dasein

    Sentiments went virtually unchanged.
     
    That word, sentiments, probably explains why. It probably isn't very useful to ask ordinary people how they might feel about China. If I consult my gut, I don't have any particularly bad feelings about China or the Chinese people either. The subject is too large, vague, and far away. But even the most rudimentary rational analysis tells you that China should not be trusted. We've let China walk in and out of our country with every sort of technology and industrial secret they wanted. They've taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can't even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help. China has done a number on us, and we have only ourselves to blame. They're crafty and wily, and we're lazy and stupid. I doubt that hating China would lead to anything productive, but we've got to end this dysfunctional relationship.

    Apropos of that subject, my suspicion is that the corona lockdown has progressed too far to be reversed now. The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book), but the cultural and economic dislocations are not going to be reset to the status quo ante. We're on a path now that must be trodden to the end. The whole globalist system and its many political, social, and economic arrangements is coming apart. "It's a long road with no turning, pally," as Shelly Levene said.

    The metaphor here is not "This is our World War Two," which historically illiterate Boomer cosplay and manifest nonsense. This is, however, our World War One. This is the time when our sclerotic elites, comfortable for way too long and betraying a stunning lack of creativity and foresight, dragged the world into chaos and destruction over a minor incident, and fielded a system interlocking powers and tensions that could accomplish nothing but its own self-destruction at enormous cost.

    Replies: @obwandiyag, @obwandiyag, @YetAnotherAnon, @Twinkie, @LoutishAngloQuebecker, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Audacious Epigone, @Thea

    Intelligent Dasein, I don’t think in general I’ve agreed with your comments more than, say 50-75% over the years, but I am in agreement with this comment wholeheartedly. I looked through your comments just now to try to find one (that I’d thought was by you) about the big rift that this Kung Flu has been causing among the American population that cuts across the usual dividing lines.* First of all, you have been firing on all cylinders with your comments about this Infotainment Panic-Fest, but let me make my point now.

    The comment in question was about this new divide between those who are scared shitless for the whole nation and those who realize it’s been blown way out of proportion, whether “for reasons” or simply due to general stupidity. I have seen this divide, including in my own family, in which it’s getting mighty intense. Mr. Unz has written that we’ll all know who’s right (admitting it is another story) in a few months, but I say it will be apparent to those who want to know the truth in more like a year or two.

    The US annual death rate is something like 0.85%. With 330,000,000 people that means 2,800,000 people die in an average year and 23,000 in an average month, and 7,800 people during an average day. Most of them die, luckily at an old age, at home, in a nursing home, or after a few days in the hospital. I do get the idea that the availability of respirators and ICU beds is limiting and is causing more people to die earlier in the worse-hit areas. The reasons I wrote “a year or two” in the previous paragraph is that is when we will see whether there were really significantly more total American deaths, or just a bump or a few bumps in these deaths as some people, almost all older with other health problems, die earlier than they would have.

    .

    * The comment mentioned some anti-Trumpers who appreciate his position on this thing – if you recall this comment, yours or otherwise, from iSteve, please fill me in. (There’s been so many posts on iSteve about the virus, so …)

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I believe I remember a comment like that, but unfortunately it wasn't by me. It harmonizes with everything I've been saying though, and there are intimations of the same idea scattered throughout my writings, but the particular one you want was written by someone else whom I do not recall at the moment. If I think of it, I'll be sure to let you know.

    Predictably, older and wealthier thought-workers are okay with shutting everything down, while younger people raising children and earning wages in the physical economy need everything to stay open. I don't see how ERs and ICUs are going to be any less overwhelmed by a breakdown in the social order (which is sure to happen if this goes on much longer) than they would be by an influx of wheezing geezers, so the rationale for social distancing measures grows thinner and thinner the longer they carry on. Prioritizing geezer lives at the expense of literally everything else is no way to run a country.

    My question is, is this the new normal? Every developed nation in the world now has an inverted demographic pyramid, so geezer votes and geezer money can muscle out the interests of younnger people, at least for awhile. At the same time, they in their aging decrepitude present a bigger and bigger target for every new infectious disease. Are we going to lock everything down each time there is a new strain of corona or flu making the rounds? We won't be able to manage that and eventually the younger generations won't stand for it. We've just monetized an amount equal to one-tenth of our entire annual output in an effort to save a few thousand mostly-dead-already septuas and octos. This clearly is not affordable on any accounting.

    I am about to take serious issue with those people here who think that those of us who are worried about the economy are simply obsessed with "muh GDP." That is shallow and facile and stupid. There is stuff that needs to get done and if it doesn't, many more people are going to suffer than ever this virus infected.

    Replies: @128, @Hail

  31. AE —

    I would make sure this blog is fully backed up somewhere. I would do that today.

    Taki’s?

    The blog host is totally unhinged at this point.

    Total hatred of conservatives — which is ironic given that COVID-19 is overwhelmingly a blue-state phenomenon (by about 6 to 1). Blaming conservatives for this virus and saying neocons probably started it. Wut? Even CNN isn’t saying that!

    Somehow red-staters in flyover country who mostly stay at home and don’t even own passports are to blame? Even though this is is overwhelmingly an urban and blue-state phenomenon?

    Given that this is a conservative blog and your blog host has suddenly turned panicky-extreme-left-wing, I’d be worried that broad destruction of content is coming shortly.

    Lion of the Blogosphere turned left-wing in a panic and destroyed more than 10 years of comments.

    Would be a shame to see that here.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @DanHessinMD


    Given that this is a conservative blog and your blog host has suddenly turned panicky-extreme-left-wing, I’d be worried that broad destruction of content is coming shortly.
     
    Let us go on record right now that this will not happen.

    Our host is an expert at programming and internet communication. Furthermore, he is financially independent and beholden to no one. Moreover, he has consistently demonstrated, year after year, more openness to free discussion of ideas than anyone remotely comparable to him in social status and wealth-power.

    Agree with him or not, Ron Unz is your friend if you care about Liberty and Amendment I.

    If you feel otherwise, please go invest in a server farm, start your own site like this, write your own superior software, and open it up to the kinds of articles and comments we find here.
    , @Bragadocious
    @DanHessinMD

    Unz is obsessed with Israel, as are many around here.

    The Chinese seem to like the Palestinians a bit (I do too btw) and throw occasional shade on Israel so therefore everything else they do is hunky-dory, in Unz's bizarre worldview. But all that pro-Palestine stuff is bullshit, as we can see here.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/imagecache/mbdxxlarge/mritems/Images/2018/10/23/1856372be3aa417f83c5b2e83c656c1f_18.jpg

    But yeah, he definitely brings the crazy. I'm reminded of this story on Unz from 1999, describing his living arrangements:


    The huge living room contains not a stick of furniture. The fridge holds mostly Gatorade, muffins, and frozen snacks; Unz, a 37-year-old bachelor, eats half his meals at Burger King. He sleeps on a mattress on the floor. The bathrooms are dirty, and the dust is thick. There’s no one who comes in to clean, no photos on display, and no escaping the thought that a well-heeled businessman has to have a screw loose to live this way.

     

    Filthy bathrooms.

    Eats at Burger King all the time.

    Eschews the company of women.

    This guy wants the world to end. He's Ted Kaczynski with a bigger bankroll.

    Replies: @Yahya K., @Tusk

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @DanHessinMD

    While I appreciate the concern, you're misreading Ron. He's done heroic work to preserve perspectives of all kinds that would otherwise be lost to time.

    , @MEH 0910
    @DanHessinMD

    The old comments are still up at Lion's blog, and he has a new post up:
    https://twitter.com/LionBlogosphere/status/1245762147323392000

    Replies: @Tor597

  32. notable exceptions are among blacks, Democrats, and the elderly–all of whom report having become less hostile towards China over the course of the last month.

    What explains this? Random walk? Sampling error? Or sympathy?

    I’m not surprised by the rest of it. I think basically only two things can change international opinions, invading a country, or a concerted media attack. China has enough money and influence to avoid the second. Its age structure also makes the first pretty unlikely.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @songbird

    The change among the elderly is the most surprising. The partisan angle--which captures blacks and Democrats--is less so.

  33. @Ron Unz
    @A123


    An attack with a bio-WMD invites a response with a nuclear-WMD.
     
    The advantage of a bioweapons attack is that is has at least a certain amount of "plausible deniability." If the attack had devastated China as much as it now looks to devastate America, do you really think China would have launched a nuclear attack against the US?

    Fortunately, unlike America, China is extremely competent and managed to stamp out the Coronavirus with minimal loss of life. Meanwhile, I think we'll be lucky to avoid 1M American deaths by early summer.

    Here's what I wrote five weeks ago, while Trump and all the pro-Trump morons were still saying "It's Just the Flu!!!":

    Consider a particularly ironic outcome of this situation, not particularly likely but certainly possible…

    Everyone knows that America’s ruling elites are criminal, crazy, and also extremely incompetent.

    So perhaps the coronavirus outbreak was indeed a deliberate biowarfare attack against China, hitting that nation just before Lunar New Year, the worst possible time to produce a permanent nationwide pandemic. However, the PRC responded with remarkable speed and efficiency, implementing by far the largest quarantine in human history, and the deadly disease now seems to be in decline there.

    Meanwhile, the disease naturally leaks back into the US, and despite all the advance warning, our totally incompetent government mismanages the situation, producing a huge national health disaster, and the collapse of our economy and decrepit political system.

    As I said, not particularly likely, but certainly a very fitting end to the American Empire…
     
    https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/who-made-coronavirus-was-it-the-u-s-israel-or-china-itself/?showcomments#comment-3753228

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @A123, @JohnnyWalker123

    The advantage of a bioweapons attack is that is has at least a certain amount of “plausible deniability.” If the attack had devastated China as much as it now looks to devastate America, do you really think China would have launched a nuclear attack against the US?

    Would China nuke the U.S. if:

    — There were 10MM+ dead in China and the situation was getting worse.
    — CCP had, to their belief, plausible evidence pointing to a U.S. weapons lab as the source.

    Probably *YES*.
    ____

    Could a treasonous Deep State black ops team have certainty, in advance, that China would implement measures that have had some success?

    It is hard to predict what any government will do in a crisis. And, the math shows that a few weeks can change the outcome by an order of magnitude.

    Would you throw those dice with the fate of the U.S., possibly the human race, on the line?

    The NeoConDemocrats are outrageous. Intentionally attacking China’s civilian population is more than outrageous, it is insane. I honestly do not see a plausible case for risking WW III.
    ______

    If black ops team had wide access to a variety of bio-WMD, Why COVID-19?

    Releasing a rice plant blight to make China reliant on the U.S. for food would be a much more plausible plan to end China’s resistance to Globalism. Submit or Starve.

    This virus is an implausible choice. The high spread rate and long incubation period guaranteed a world wide escape. The consequences are random and unpredictable. It is hard to conceive of any military scenario where COVID-19 would be the weapon of choice.

    If COVID-19 represents an interim research step, not a battlefield ready weapon, that points to an accidental release from the Wuhan bio-weapon laboratory as the most plausible scenario.

    PEACE 😷

    • Agree: JosephB
  34. @DanHessinMD
    AE --

    I would make sure this blog is fully backed up somewhere. I would do that today.

    Taki's?

    The blog host is totally unhinged at this point.

    Total hatred of conservatives -- which is ironic given that COVID-19 is overwhelmingly a blue-state phenomenon (by about 6 to 1). Blaming conservatives for this virus and saying neocons probably started it. Wut? Even CNN isn't saying that!

    Somehow red-staters in flyover country who mostly stay at home and don't even own passports are to blame? Even though this is is overwhelmingly an urban and blue-state phenomenon?

    Given that this is a conservative blog and your blog host has suddenly turned panicky-extreme-left-wing, I'd be worried that broad destruction of content is coming shortly.

    Lion of the Blogosphere turned left-wing in a panic and destroyed more than 10 years of comments.

    Would be a shame to see that here.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Bragadocious, @Audacious Epigone, @MEH 0910

    Given that this is a conservative blog and your blog host has suddenly turned panicky-extreme-left-wing, I’d be worried that broad destruction of content is coming shortly.

    Let us go on record right now that this will not happen.

    Our host is an expert at programming and internet communication. Furthermore, he is financially independent and beholden to no one. Moreover, he has consistently demonstrated, year after year, more openness to free discussion of ideas than anyone remotely comparable to him in social status and wealth-power.

    Agree with him or not, Ron Unz is your friend if you care about Liberty and Amendment I.

    If you feel otherwise, please go invest in a server farm, start your own site like this, write your own superior software, and open it up to the kinds of articles and comments we find here.

  35. @Intelligent Dasein

    Sentiments went virtually unchanged.
     
    That word, sentiments, probably explains why. It probably isn't very useful to ask ordinary people how they might feel about China. If I consult my gut, I don't have any particularly bad feelings about China or the Chinese people either. The subject is too large, vague, and far away. But even the most rudimentary rational analysis tells you that China should not be trusted. We've let China walk in and out of our country with every sort of technology and industrial secret they wanted. They've taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can't even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help. China has done a number on us, and we have only ourselves to blame. They're crafty and wily, and we're lazy and stupid. I doubt that hating China would lead to anything productive, but we've got to end this dysfunctional relationship.

    Apropos of that subject, my suspicion is that the corona lockdown has progressed too far to be reversed now. The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book), but the cultural and economic dislocations are not going to be reset to the status quo ante. We're on a path now that must be trodden to the end. The whole globalist system and its many political, social, and economic arrangements is coming apart. "It's a long road with no turning, pally," as Shelly Levene said.

    The metaphor here is not "This is our World War Two," which historically illiterate Boomer cosplay and manifest nonsense. This is, however, our World War One. This is the time when our sclerotic elites, comfortable for way too long and betraying a stunning lack of creativity and foresight, dragged the world into chaos and destruction over a minor incident, and fielded a system interlocking powers and tensions that could accomplish nothing but its own self-destruction at enormous cost.

    Replies: @obwandiyag, @obwandiyag, @YetAnotherAnon, @Twinkie, @LoutishAngloQuebecker, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Audacious Epigone, @Thea

    OK, that was getting long, so here’s my main point, or really a question:

    This divide is not along the usual political lines, I don’t think. My family is a good example of that. I’m not talking about the doling out of the MegaBucks by the Feral Gov., as the solution to the problem governments have caused. That is indeed political along the usual dividing lines.

    Where are we getting our widely-differing perspectives from? In my opinion, it’s a matter of time spent in from of the idiot plate, but, especially with the young people who don’t so much, but spent 10-25% of their waking hours looking at their little screens, the ease of keeping up with the numbers involved in this “horror” have them sucked in.*

    This severe flu variant is the best thing that happened to the Lyin’ Press and the whole infotainment-industrial-complex since OJ! This time it’s truly 24/7 for anyone who is addicted to news. Those, like myself, who think back to the previous 3 or 4 new virus strains out of E. Asia, and the normality of life with excess death rates of the same order-of-magnitude, and don’t spend so much time with the infotainment, have a much different attitude.

    I am just so sick of hearing about this Kung Flu, not because I don’t want advice that I don’t like, but because it is being used to change the country. Every change that I’ve seen since the middle 1990s has been FOR THE WORSE, so that’s what I expect. If people calmed the hell down, and got their eyes, ears, and minds off this for good while, I think they would see things differently.

    I’d like to read other commenters’ including our host A.E.’s of course, opinions regarding this question. Why are we divided on the way to handle the Kung Flu?

    Right now, it’s beautiful outside. We’re going to the park (one kid’s Mom has the same attitude as me, but that guy can’t come today). We’re going to throw the frisbee. We’ll going hiking again sometime soon. Kids (least at my house) are learning in 3 hours what takes a day or two in school. Recess has been running from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours. Fresh air and vitamin D, bitchez!

    .

    * Look at Steve Sailer, an erudite guy with lots of common sense. If this were TEOTWAWKI due to this disease, I could see blogging 80% of posts about it. It’s not! I could see doing a lot more blogging about the financial/economic fallout and what lies ahead due to this panic-fest, such as our Mr. Epigone here has done a few times already.

    • Agree: The Alarmist, Adam Smith
    • Replies: @Talha
    @Achmed E. Newman


    This severe flu variant is the best thing that happened to the Lyin’ Press and the whole infotainment-industrial-complex since OJ!
     
    I forget if anyone has posted this yet:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwvZql6RToE

    Fresh air and vitamin D, bitchez!
     
    https://s3.amazonaws.com/factmag-images/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/02155645/o-DAVE-CHAPPELLE-PRINCE-facebook.jpg

    But seriously, yeah - everyone should try to take advantage of sunny days when they can in this time.

    Peace.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    , @Intelligent Dasein
    @Achmed E. Newman


    I’d like to read other commenters’ including our host A.E.’s of course, opinions regarding this question. Why are we divided on the way to handle the Kung Flu?
     
    Among otherwise sincere people who are not flogging one side or the other due to personal involvement, strong passions, or ulterior motives, I would think it comes down to a matter of trust. For example, my philosophical support for the death penalty is unshakeable; my existential support for the death penalty, however, waxes and wanes along with my confidence that the government is going to apply it properly. Anybody who has ever been wrongly imprisoned would be understandably leary of the government doling out punishments, especially the ultimate punishement, even if he is quite comfortable with such punishments in principle.

    My concerns about Covid-19 are existential and not philosophical. I have no argument in principle with which to oppose the lockdown, because there isn't one. There may be circumstances in which a lockdown is necesary. But I have no existential confidence that this type of lockdown is either useful or necessary in the nonce, or that our government can manage this without making matters worse than what the disease would have been in the first place.

    Existential confidence is a matter of what Aristotle called prudence, i.e. the ability to know what is good for human beings in definite circumstances. It is not a matter of mere intelligence, and IQ has nothing to with it. That explains why so many bright people are on the wrong side of the issue, and it also explains why those of us on the right side of the issue cannot always articulate the point clearly.

    Replies: @Adam Smith, @The Alarmist

    , @dfordoom
    @Achmed E. Newman


    I am just so sick of hearing about this Kung Flu, not because I don’t want advice that I don’t like, but because it is being used to change the country.
     
    Indeed. At the end of this we're not going to have the same economy that we had before CV and we're not going to have the same society.

    We're going to have an economy much more heavily dominated by large corporations. Much more so than was already the case. And given that the large corporations will probably use their bailout money to finance mergers and acquisitions we'll most likely have fewer but even bigger mega-corporations.

    We're going to have a more hysterical more paranoid society even more subject to crazy panics, and even more inclined to support draconian social controls.

    And, especially on the political Right, we're going to have more irrational hatred and more kooky conspiracy theories.

    Every change that I’ve seen since the middle 1990s has been FOR THE WORSE, so that’s what I expect.
     
    I agree wholeheartedly with that.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    , @Adam Smith
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Fresh air and vitamin D, bitchez!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhy_EjmvQ0I

    , @Adam Smith
    @Achmed E. Newman


    This divide is not along the usual political lines...

    Where are we getting our widely-differing perspectives from?

    In my opinion, it’s a matter of time spent in front of the idiot plate,
     
    I think the idiot plate has much to do with it.
    It's almost like the TV is a great tool for mass hypnosis or something.

    Allow me to propose another hypothesis.

    I'm sure you're familiar with the political compass.

    Are you familiar with Bob Altemeyer?

    Could the differing perspectives be symptomatic of the divide between libertarians and authoritarian followers?

    https://www.trainingourprotectors.com/uploads/5/4/1/5/5415260/when_rwa_inherit_the_earth.pdf

    https://theauthoritarians.org/Downloads/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

    Or...

    Let's indulge in a little superstitious esotericism for a moment...

    It seems to me that the real contagion is in the mind at the quantum level.

    Could it be Wetiko?
  36. @Intelligent Dasein
    Here is the latest graph, current as of 04/01/2020

    https://i1.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/corona-deaths-20200401.png?w=717&ssl=1

    Here are the essential takeaways. Every country, South Korea excepted, is following the same trajectory regardless of which suite of possible social distancing measures is adopted. Also, every country is flattening considerably once they rise above the 0.1% mortality rate.

    In other words, social distancing is having no effect other than creating social and economic chaos. Other than tried and true prophylactic measures such as hand-washing and mask-wearing, there is nothing anybody can do to stop the spread of the virus, but the good news is it really isn't necessary to bother trying. The total death rate will level off at something not significantly higher than 0.1% of the worst affected populations (the 0.3% figure bandied about looks to be a good guess at the upper bound), with virtually all of those deaths occuring among the very old and/or very sick.

    It's three flu seasons rolled in to one, almost exactly. Not insignificant, but very far from being the end of the world. But as I mentioned in my post above, the virus itself is an afterthought at this point. The changing world going forward is now the subject of primary concern. It was no coincidence that this overblown response, in itself a permanent possibility of our state apparatus, happened to occur just now. For some reason, a subtle mood shift took place all over the world at about the same moment, the flock changed direction, and globalism as we knew it was given up with a shrug. The fallout from this event will be with us for a long, long time. The responsible ones among us must start to look at it and analyze it.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Mark G., @Dumbo, @Twinkie, @Ron Unz

    It will be interesting to see if the graphs end up looking like a bell shaped curve with equal numbers of deaths before and after the peak. Is there any information available about past epidemics and what their graphs looked like?

  37. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Intelligent Dasein

    OK, that was getting long, so here's my main point, or really a question:

    This divide is not along the usual political lines, I don't think. My family is a good example of that. I'm not talking about the doling out of the MegaBucks by the Feral Gov., as the solution to the problem governments have caused. That is indeed political along the usual dividing lines.

    Where are we getting our widely-differing perspectives from? In my opinion, it's a matter of time spent in from of the idiot plate, but, especially with the young people who don't so much, but spent 10-25% of their waking hours looking at their little screens, the ease of keeping up with the numbers involved in this "horror" have them sucked in.*

    This severe flu variant is the best thing that happened to the Lyin' Press and the whole infotainment-industrial-complex since OJ! This time it's truly 24/7 for anyone who is addicted to news. Those, like myself, who think back to the previous 3 or 4 new virus strains out of E. Asia, and the normality of life with excess death rates of the same order-of-magnitude, and don't spend so much time with the infotainment, have a much different attitude.

    I am just so sick of hearing about this Kung Flu, not because I don't want advice that I don't like, but because it is being used to change the country. Every change that I've seen since the middle 1990s has been FOR THE WORSE, so that's what I expect. If people calmed the hell down, and got their eyes, ears, and minds off this for good while, I think they would see things differently.

    I'd like to read other commenters' including our host A.E.'s of course, opinions regarding this question. Why are we divided on the way to handle the Kung Flu?

    Right now, it's beautiful outside. We're going to the park (one kid's Mom has the same attitude as me, but that guy can't come today). We're going to throw the frisbee. We'll going hiking again sometime soon. Kids (least at my house) are learning in 3 hours what takes a day or two in school. Recess has been running from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours. Fresh air and vitamin D, bitchez!


    .

    * Look at Steve Sailer, an erudite guy with lots of common sense. If this were TEOTWAWKI due to this disease, I could see blogging 80% of posts about it. It's not! I could see doing a lot more blogging about the financial/economic fallout and what lies ahead due to this panic-fest, such as our Mr. Epigone here has done a few times already.

    Replies: @Talha, @Intelligent Dasein, @dfordoom, @Adam Smith, @Adam Smith

    This severe flu variant is the best thing that happened to the Lyin’ Press and the whole infotainment-industrial-complex since OJ!

    I forget if anyone has posted this yet:

    Fresh air and vitamin D, bitchez!

    But seriously, yeah – everyone should try to take advantage of sunny days when they can in this time.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Talha

    Thank you so much, Sir! I'm still smiling, as I type. I have no memory of this one, but it'll have to go up on a blog somewhere prontomundo.... hmmm, maybe some sort of blog about Stupidity or something ...

  38. Anon[822] • Disclaimer says:

    Just checked the CDC numbers. As of this morning, the U.S. has 4,513 Coronavirus deaths.

    The 2017 flu season saw 61,000 deaths.

    They have most people sheltering-in-place, and the feedback from the usage of chloronique seems to be promising, a tobacco company thinks they may be able to make a vaccine, we are using plasma from recovered patients as a treatment for the newly sick and most vunerable, and traditional pharmaceutical companies are working on a vaccine also.

    Trump was late, but he came around (which is the admission of his error). Remember when Biden called a travel ban from China xenophobic? Trump and his well-wishers have seen so many baseless warnings and accusations thrown at them by the media that it was perhaps natural for them to assume this threat was overhyped too. The impeachment stuff in December assuredly took a fair amount of Donald Trump’s attention. I think this administration gets it now and its doing its best despite a slow start.

  39. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people...

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying "No Problem!" and "It's Just the Flu!!!" and now that they've found out they HAVE a problem and "It's NOT the Flu!" they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I've pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there's a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Replies: @UK, @22pp22, @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @A123, @obwandiyag, @Joe Stalin, @Audacious Epigone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean, @Thomm, @The Alarmist, @Thea, @Corvinus

    The attempts to place blame on China for the terrible incompetence of Assholian leaders and the decrepitude of the Empire, and quite possibly to deflect attention from an Assholian and/or Khazar biological weapons program gone awry, is key to understanding the ‘populist’/teabagger response – it’s pathetic, but it is just about all they have left as this magnificent bastard of a virus literally puts the lie to every single tenet of their modern perversion of libertarianism.

  40. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Intelligent Dasein, I don't think in general I've agreed with your comments more than, say 50-75% over the years, but I am in agreement with this comment wholeheartedly. I looked through your comments just now to try to find one (that I'd thought was by you) about the big rift that this Kung Flu has been causing among the American population that cuts across the usual dividing lines.* First of all, you have been firing on all cylinders with your comments about this Infotainment Panic-Fest, but let me make my point now.

    The comment in question was about this new divide between those who are scared shitless for the whole nation and those who realize it's been blown way out of proportion, whether "for reasons" or simply due to general stupidity. I have seen this divide, including in my own family, in which it's getting mighty intense. Mr. Unz has written that we'll all know who's right (admitting it is another story) in a few months, but I say it will be apparent to those who want to know the truth in more like a year or two.

    The US annual death rate is something like 0.85%. With 330,000,000 people that means 2,800,000 people die in an average year and 23,000 in an average month, and 7,800 people during an average day. Most of them die, luckily at an old age, at home, in a nursing home, or after a few days in the hospital. I do get the idea that the availability of respirators and ICU beds is limiting and is causing more people to die earlier in the worse-hit areas. The reasons I wrote "a year or two" in the previous paragraph is that is when we will see whether there were really significantly more total American deaths, or just a bump or a few bumps in these deaths as some people, almost all older with other health problems, die earlier than they would have.

    .


    * The comment mentioned some anti-Trumpers who appreciate his position on this thing - if you recall this comment, yours or otherwise, from iSteve, please fill me in. (There's been so many posts on iSteve about the virus, so ...)

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    I believe I remember a comment like that, but unfortunately it wasn’t by me. It harmonizes with everything I’ve been saying though, and there are intimations of the same idea scattered throughout my writings, but the particular one you want was written by someone else whom I do not recall at the moment. If I think of it, I’ll be sure to let you know.

    Predictably, older and wealthier thought-workers are okay with shutting everything down, while younger people raising children and earning wages in the physical economy need everything to stay open. I don’t see how ERs and ICUs are going to be any less overwhelmed by a breakdown in the social order (which is sure to happen if this goes on much longer) than they would be by an influx of wheezing geezers, so the rationale for social distancing measures grows thinner and thinner the longer they carry on. Prioritizing geezer lives at the expense of literally everything else is no way to run a country.

    My question is, is this the new normal? Every developed nation in the world now has an inverted demographic pyramid, so geezer votes and geezer money can muscle out the interests of younnger people, at least for awhile. At the same time, they in their aging decrepitude present a bigger and bigger target for every new infectious disease. Are we going to lock everything down each time there is a new strain of corona or flu making the rounds? We won’t be able to manage that and eventually the younger generations won’t stand for it. We’ve just monetized an amount equal to one-tenth of our entire annual output in an effort to save a few thousand mostly-dead-already septuas and octos. This clearly is not affordable on any accounting.

    I am about to take serious issue with those people here who think that those of us who are worried about the economy are simply obsessed with “muh GDP.” That is shallow and facile and stupid. There is stuff that needs to get done and if it doesn’t, many more people are going to suffer than ever this virus infected.

    • Replies: @128
    @Intelligent Dasein

    It is your generation that is responsible for the spread of globohomo and deserves to be democided and wiped off the map, if that. It is your generation that if truly worthless and little if any redeeming value. If this virus mutates and begins to take out 25 year olds and people like you and your type turnabout is always fair play. the fact that the country was still sane into the the mid 2000s was due to all the boomers and silents and their leftover political and social influence.

    , @Hail
    @Intelligent Dasein


    Every developed nation in the world now has an inverted demographic pyramid, so geezer votes and geezer money can muscle out the interests of younnger people, at least for awhile. At the same time, they in their aging decrepitude present a bigger and bigger target for every new infectious disease. Are we going to lock everything down each time there is a new strain of corona or flu making the rounds?
     
    One practical measure would be to restrict the right vote to a core-life age bracket. Say, persons age 25 to 75. Or some other range. I am not committed exactly to that one. The point is put in a 'voting-rights retirement' mechanism. And also restrict political office-holding by age, say to persons age 30 to 80.

    On your 75th birthday, your right to vote is gracefully retired and we hold a party honoring you and you life's work. You can still follow politics and comment on it, but just as one retires from one's career and lives a graceful retirement, it makes sense to have the same mechanism for voting.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  41. @Intelligent Dasein
    @obwandiyag

    The only dignity I will give to your comments is the bemused observation that, at the moment, you seem slightly more coherent than Ron Unz, which is a sign of strange days ahead.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @obwandiyag

    Dignity? You’re a child. You wouldn’t know what dignity is in your short pants. And don’t tell me you don’t wear shorts.

  42. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Intelligent Dasein

    "We’ve let China walk in and out of our country with every sort of technology and industrial secret they wanted. They’ve taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can’t even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help. China has done a number on us, and we have only ourselves to blame. "

    The "we" who let China walk in and out, and who are to blame, are not the same people as the "we" who can't get basic necessities. It's not Joe Sixpack who moved manufacturing to China.

    The first "we" have plenty of masks, tests, hazmat suits if they want them.

    Replies: @obwandiyag

    You got it. Intelligent Dasein made unintelligent mistake. Blaming China for something that is the fault of our owners. Of the filthy rich. In the US and Europe. These people who think the rich are our friends kill me. They must just watch TV all day.

  43. @Talha
    @Achmed E. Newman


    This severe flu variant is the best thing that happened to the Lyin’ Press and the whole infotainment-industrial-complex since OJ!
     
    I forget if anyone has posted this yet:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwvZql6RToE

    Fresh air and vitamin D, bitchez!
     
    https://s3.amazonaws.com/factmag-images/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/02155645/o-DAVE-CHAPPELLE-PRINCE-facebook.jpg

    But seriously, yeah - everyone should try to take advantage of sunny days when they can in this time.

    Peace.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Thank you so much, Sir! I’m still smiling, as I type. I have no memory of this one, but it’ll have to go up on a blog somewhere prontomundo…. hmmm, maybe some sort of blog about Stupidity or something …

  44. @Intelligent Dasein
    Here is the latest graph, current as of 04/01/2020

    https://i1.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/corona-deaths-20200401.png?w=717&ssl=1

    Here are the essential takeaways. Every country, South Korea excepted, is following the same trajectory regardless of which suite of possible social distancing measures is adopted. Also, every country is flattening considerably once they rise above the 0.1% mortality rate.

    In other words, social distancing is having no effect other than creating social and economic chaos. Other than tried and true prophylactic measures such as hand-washing and mask-wearing, there is nothing anybody can do to stop the spread of the virus, but the good news is it really isn't necessary to bother trying. The total death rate will level off at something not significantly higher than 0.1% of the worst affected populations (the 0.3% figure bandied about looks to be a good guess at the upper bound), with virtually all of those deaths occuring among the very old and/or very sick.

    It's three flu seasons rolled in to one, almost exactly. Not insignificant, but very far from being the end of the world. But as I mentioned in my post above, the virus itself is an afterthought at this point. The changing world going forward is now the subject of primary concern. It was no coincidence that this overblown response, in itself a permanent possibility of our state apparatus, happened to occur just now. For some reason, a subtle mood shift took place all over the world at about the same moment, the flock changed direction, and globalism as we knew it was given up with a shrug. The fallout from this event will be with us for a long, long time. The responsible ones among us must start to look at it and analyze it.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Mark G., @Dumbo, @Twinkie, @Ron Unz

    Yes, the “social distancing” thing (euphemism) at most slows it down (if that) but it doesn’t stop it. Actually countries with lockdown seem to have similar number of cases with countries with no or less lockdown. Sweden may be a case study.

    I think it’s been a while that the powers that be were looking for a pandemic, and this one came in handy. I think the real problem from this will be economic, as well as social and political (countries will become more totalitarian, globalist democracy free-market will be substituted by more authoritarian forms of control).

  45. How about the internet right wing which has been miles ahead of the curve on this starts another new trend

    Let’s only talk State by State, or in terms of the hot spots vs everywhere else. The US total rate/death is meaningless.

  46. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Intelligent Dasein

    OK, that was getting long, so here's my main point, or really a question:

    This divide is not along the usual political lines, I don't think. My family is a good example of that. I'm not talking about the doling out of the MegaBucks by the Feral Gov., as the solution to the problem governments have caused. That is indeed political along the usual dividing lines.

    Where are we getting our widely-differing perspectives from? In my opinion, it's a matter of time spent in from of the idiot plate, but, especially with the young people who don't so much, but spent 10-25% of their waking hours looking at their little screens, the ease of keeping up with the numbers involved in this "horror" have them sucked in.*

    This severe flu variant is the best thing that happened to the Lyin' Press and the whole infotainment-industrial-complex since OJ! This time it's truly 24/7 for anyone who is addicted to news. Those, like myself, who think back to the previous 3 or 4 new virus strains out of E. Asia, and the normality of life with excess death rates of the same order-of-magnitude, and don't spend so much time with the infotainment, have a much different attitude.

    I am just so sick of hearing about this Kung Flu, not because I don't want advice that I don't like, but because it is being used to change the country. Every change that I've seen since the middle 1990s has been FOR THE WORSE, so that's what I expect. If people calmed the hell down, and got their eyes, ears, and minds off this for good while, I think they would see things differently.

    I'd like to read other commenters' including our host A.E.'s of course, opinions regarding this question. Why are we divided on the way to handle the Kung Flu?

    Right now, it's beautiful outside. We're going to the park (one kid's Mom has the same attitude as me, but that guy can't come today). We're going to throw the frisbee. We'll going hiking again sometime soon. Kids (least at my house) are learning in 3 hours what takes a day or two in school. Recess has been running from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours. Fresh air and vitamin D, bitchez!


    .

    * Look at Steve Sailer, an erudite guy with lots of common sense. If this were TEOTWAWKI due to this disease, I could see blogging 80% of posts about it. It's not! I could see doing a lot more blogging about the financial/economic fallout and what lies ahead due to this panic-fest, such as our Mr. Epigone here has done a few times already.

    Replies: @Talha, @Intelligent Dasein, @dfordoom, @Adam Smith, @Adam Smith

    I’d like to read other commenters’ including our host A.E.’s of course, opinions regarding this question. Why are we divided on the way to handle the Kung Flu?

    Among otherwise sincere people who are not flogging one side or the other due to personal involvement, strong passions, or ulterior motives, I would think it comes down to a matter of trust. For example, my philosophical support for the death penalty is unshakeable; my existential support for the death penalty, however, waxes and wanes along with my confidence that the government is going to apply it properly. Anybody who has ever been wrongly imprisoned would be understandably leary of the government doling out punishments, especially the ultimate punishement, even if he is quite comfortable with such punishments in principle.

    My concerns about Covid-19 are existential and not philosophical. I have no argument in principle with which to oppose the lockdown, because there isn’t one. There may be circumstances in which a lockdown is necesary. But I have no existential confidence that this type of lockdown is either useful or necessary in the nonce, or that our government can manage this without making matters worse than what the disease would have been in the first place.

    Existential confidence is a matter of what Aristotle called prudence, i.e. the ability to know what is good for human beings in definite circumstances. It is not a matter of mere intelligence, and IQ has nothing to with it. That explains why so many bright people are on the wrong side of the issue, and it also explains why those of us on the right side of the issue cannot always articulate the point clearly.

    • Agree: Adam Smith
    • Replies: @Adam Smith
    @Intelligent Dasein

    I Agree...(!)

    It all comes down to trust.

    , @The Alarmist
    @Intelligent Dasein

    So, we save a few millions of lives, but we leave them in a brutish world to eke out a mean existence. What exactly have we as a society gained?

    Replies: @Talha

  47. @DanHessinMD
    AE --

    I would make sure this blog is fully backed up somewhere. I would do that today.

    Taki's?

    The blog host is totally unhinged at this point.

    Total hatred of conservatives -- which is ironic given that COVID-19 is overwhelmingly a blue-state phenomenon (by about 6 to 1). Blaming conservatives for this virus and saying neocons probably started it. Wut? Even CNN isn't saying that!

    Somehow red-staters in flyover country who mostly stay at home and don't even own passports are to blame? Even though this is is overwhelmingly an urban and blue-state phenomenon?

    Given that this is a conservative blog and your blog host has suddenly turned panicky-extreme-left-wing, I'd be worried that broad destruction of content is coming shortly.

    Lion of the Blogosphere turned left-wing in a panic and destroyed more than 10 years of comments.

    Would be a shame to see that here.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Bragadocious, @Audacious Epigone, @MEH 0910

    Unz is obsessed with Israel, as are many around here.

    The Chinese seem to like the Palestinians a bit (I do too btw) and throw occasional shade on Israel so therefore everything else they do is hunky-dory, in Unz’s bizarre worldview. But all that pro-Palestine stuff is bullshit, as we can see here.

    But yeah, he definitely brings the crazy. I’m reminded of this story on Unz from 1999, describing his living arrangements:

    The huge living room contains not a stick of furniture. The fridge holds mostly Gatorade, muffins, and frozen snacks; Unz, a 37-year-old bachelor, eats half his meals at Burger King. He sleeps on a mattress on the floor. The bathrooms are dirty, and the dust is thick. There’s no one who comes in to clean, no photos on display, and no escaping the thought that a well-heeled businessman has to have a screw loose to live this way.

    Filthy bathrooms.

    Eats at Burger King all the time.

    Eschews the company of women.

    This guy wants the world to end. He’s Ted Kaczynski with a bigger bankroll.

    • Disagree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Yahya K.
    @Bragadocious

    It would be a very good idea for China, geopolitically, to voice support for Palestine. They would gain favor with the Islamic World, and specifically the Gulf States, whom they need oil from. And I’m sure that once China makes its foray into the Middle East, and attempts to wrestle influence away from America, they will win over the Arab states easily that way. They may lose Israel, but what use is Israel to the Chinese (or the Americans for that matter)?

    Not that I support us Arabs abandoning America. I happen to like and admire America a bit more than China, so I would personally stick with America. But it would be shrewd of the Chinese to side with Arabs on the Arab-Israeli conflict. There is an opening here for them to get more influence (and secure oil access) in this part of the world. The US is even retreating a bit (while doubling down on their support for Israel) and allowing this opening to widen.

    , @Tusk
    @Bragadocious

    Based. Uncle Ted and Uncle Ron here to save us all.

  48. @Twinkie
    @Intelligent Dasein


    The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book
     
    Well, NichtIntelligent Dasein, I am mildly amused that you have moved on from “just a bad flu” level of mortality to “three or four bad flue seasons compressed into one year.” No doubt, should the rate increase further, you will say, “This is still nothingburger, it’s only ten bad seasons compressed into half a year! So, basically, still just flu-like.”

    You seem not to realize that we are still in the front half of the pandemic in this country - and only in the first 30-60 days of deaths - so comparing those numbers with the annual mortality rate due to influenza is apples-to-oranges to say the least.

    You also seem not to realize that “compressing” multiple flu seasons of mortality into 30 days overwhelms the healthcare system and creates excess deaths due to non-covid-19 causes (which should be attributed to covid-19 in terms of discussing overall deadliness of the pandemic). And all this is despite the various levels of population lockdown throughout the country, without which the mortality would be significantly and likely exponentially higher.

    What I worry about is what happens when this pandemic finally spreads to the rural areas in this country where the population is older and sicker and the hospital/ICU coverage is much, much thinner. Already many rural hospitals had closed due to consolidation and budget problems even prior to this. What few hospitals that still serve the rural population are already being hit hard, because electives and other procedures (on insured population) that subsidize everything else have dried up (ERs in these areas bleed money badly since the patients who present there are often underinsured or uninsured and are frequently chronic patients who use the ER as their primary care).

    I pray to God that doesn’t happen, but I am not optimistic. Even if this pandemic turned out to be unexpectedly mild, a lot of rural hospitals are going to experience closures and worsened budgetary conditions, and the health service coverage for rural Americans is going to degrade even further. Who knows what that will do when the next wave of this (or another pandemic) virus hits?

    Replies: @UK, @res

    This site looks at US health system capacity and estimates a peak mid-late May. Any thoughts on that?
    https://qventus.com/blog/predicting-the-effects-of-the-covid-pandemic-on-us-health-system-capacity/

    • Replies: @A123
    @res


    ... US health system capacity and estimates a peak mid-late May.
     
    How do they include the combo therapy, CQ/AZ/ZN? (*)

    If the chloroquine [CQ] combo Cuts the Top Off the Curve, there may be a chance to lift (or substantially lighten) the social contact restrictions without exceeding the health system capacity threshold.

    The trick will be pushing enough into the distribution channels so that suspected cases can be treated earily. Giving the combo to someone who has something other than WUHAN-19, is not necessarily bad. Azithromycin [AZ] is an interesting pharmaceutical with both anti-virus and anti-bacterial effects.

    PEACE 😷
    _______

    (*) This assumes the combo works. The early results are very promising. At this point it looks like everyone believes it will be at least partially effective.
    , @Twinkie
    @res

    That’s a very rough approximation and it also depends heavily on the three-tiered assumptions of severity based on past severe flu pandemics. As far as modeling goes, it looks all right to me, but of course the accuracy depends on the assumptions that are frankly all over the place on this new virus, about which we still don’t know much.

    There are just so many variable differences between the U.S. of today compared to the country in 1959 or 1918, let alone other countries, I think the confidence on any prediction has to be very low.

    With so much that is unknown or little understood, it’s a “hope for the best, prepare for the worst” kind of scenario for me.

  49. This is funny.

    US government and Americans are very unfriendly toward China and Chinese, and treat them like enemy. Then they turn around and claim that China is unfriendly or is an enemy.

    The following is just a small sample of unfriendly actions by US government and people toward China:

    1. Go halfway around the world to setup military bases and bioweapon labs around China – all in the name of deterring “China aggression”.
    2. Interfering in China’s internal affairs since 1945 when US supported Chiang kai shek, and continuing today with Taiwan, Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Tibet, etc.
    3. Voluntarily invest in China and then accusing China of stealing American jobs.
    4. Voluntarily transfer tech and then accusing China of stealing American tech.
    5. Interfering into China’s disputes with neighboring countries about some small islands and reefs.
    6. 24/7 mainstream media and politicians’ bombardments about China’s human rights and political systems.
    7. Sanctions on Chinese companies like ZTE, Huawei, DJI, etc, all in the name of alleged military ties with PLA or “potential” security threats.
    8. Arresting scientists and engineers who voluntarily working with China (e.g. Harvard’s Lieber and other American Chinese).
    9. Asserting extra-territorial laws to China, e.g. prohibiting Chinese companies’ trades with Iran, even arresting their CFO for alleging violating Iran’s sanctions.
    10. Repeated attempts to isolate China diplomatically in UN, G7, G20, …

    Let’s face it: it is the US that is behaving extremely hostile toward China, not the other way around. Most of Chinese so-called “unfriendly” actions and words are just defensive reactions.

    • Replies: @Fidelios Automata
    @d dan

    All true. The stripping of our industry is the fault of our greedy CEOs and somnolent government. Still doesn't mean China isn't the bad guy sometimes.

    Replies: @Tusk

    , @DB Cooper
    @d dan

    " Interfering in China’s internal affairs since 1945 when US supported Chiang kai shek, and continuing today with Taiwan, Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Tibet, etc."


    Well the US has been supporting Chiang Kai Shek (and help fighting the Japanese in China before Pearl Harbor happened) long before the Communist came to power. The Soviet Union on the other hand has long been the largest land grabber of China and sits on the sideline during the whole Japanese invasion. The Soviet Union has signed a mutual neutrality pact with Japan during the Sino-Japanese war and only unilaterally abrogated it two days after Japan was nuked by the US. An opportunistic act to make itself a power to the war victor parties in the pacific theater without sacrificing a single soldier. Then the Soviet Union poured its red army into China's northeast to grab more land from China. It was only under Roosevelt's pressure that Stalin finally pulled his troops back to the Soviet Union. US was friendly with China at that time and the Soviet Union has been actively coveting Chinese land as late the end of WWII. Whoever collude with the land grabber of your country and accept your land grabber as your patron is the biggest traitor of his country. And whoever fight the country that help your country is an asshole. You know who I am talking, the piece of shit fucking Mao fucking Ze fucking Dong.

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @d dan

    That could be, but it doesn't change the results of the assessment. Whether America is an angel or a devil, she still has interests and this is a measure of how Americans think China plays into those interests.

  50. After a little online searching, it appears deaths during an epidemic follow a bell shaped curve. So you would want a graph that shows deaths per day. When the number of deaths per day start to decline you could take the number of deaths up to that day and double it to get the final total.

    For example, Italy hasn’t had a larger number of daily deaths than around 825 on 3/26. At that point ten thousand people had died so doubling that would give you around twenty thousand. Italy has a hundred million people and the U.S. three hundred million so the U.S. might have sixty thousand dead. It’s hard to imagine the U.S. doing worse than Italy. Sixty thousand is a lot lower than some of the estimates I’ve seen.

    What complicates this is that epidemics sometimes have a second smaller wave with their own bell curve. The 1918 flu epidemic was like that. The second wave is usually smaller because the more susceptible individuals were already killed off in the first wave. So if a first wave in the U.S. kills off sixty thousand then the second wave will kill less than that so you are looking at around maybe a hundred thousand dead in the U.S. That is out of a population of three hundred million. To put that in perspective, that is about one out of every three thousand people.

  51. @res
    @Twinkie

    This site looks at US health system capacity and estimates a peak mid-late May. Any thoughts on that?
    https://qventus.com/blog/predicting-the-effects-of-the-covid-pandemic-on-us-health-system-capacity/

    Replies: @A123, @Twinkie

    … US health system capacity and estimates a peak mid-late May.

    How do they include the combo therapy, CQ/AZ/ZN? (*)

    If the chloroquine [CQ] combo Cuts the Top Off the Curve, there may be a chance to lift (or substantially lighten) the social contact restrictions without exceeding the health system capacity threshold.

    The trick will be pushing enough into the distribution channels so that suspected cases can be treated earily. Giving the combo to someone who has something other than WUHAN-19, is not necessarily bad. Azithromycin [AZ] is an interesting pharmaceutical with both anti-virus and anti-bacterial effects.

    PEACE 😷
    _______

    (*) This assumes the combo works. The early results are very promising. At this point it looks like everyone believes it will be at least partially effective.

  52. as i said they would. but it’s worse than that. Trump, who was correct the entire time about open borders, China, and treasonous Democrats, will be punished. Democrats, who were wrong the entire time about China and open borders, will be rewarded.

    China gets everything they want here. Joe Biden will be President, Trump will leave office. China gets to kill thousands of Americans and cost us 2 trillion dollars and get away with it. the bad guys win.

    that’s how it’s going to be. we’re returning to historically normal times where the bad guys usually win. America was an anomaly.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @prime noticer

    Nah, globohomo seemed pretty evil.

    I LOVE YOU CORONA-CHAN! <3

  53. @Ron Unz
    @A123


    An attack with a bio-WMD invites a response with a nuclear-WMD.
     
    The advantage of a bioweapons attack is that is has at least a certain amount of "plausible deniability." If the attack had devastated China as much as it now looks to devastate America, do you really think China would have launched a nuclear attack against the US?

    Fortunately, unlike America, China is extremely competent and managed to stamp out the Coronavirus with minimal loss of life. Meanwhile, I think we'll be lucky to avoid 1M American deaths by early summer.

    Here's what I wrote five weeks ago, while Trump and all the pro-Trump morons were still saying "It's Just the Flu!!!":

    Consider a particularly ironic outcome of this situation, not particularly likely but certainly possible…

    Everyone knows that America’s ruling elites are criminal, crazy, and also extremely incompetent.

    So perhaps the coronavirus outbreak was indeed a deliberate biowarfare attack against China, hitting that nation just before Lunar New Year, the worst possible time to produce a permanent nationwide pandemic. However, the PRC responded with remarkable speed and efficiency, implementing by far the largest quarantine in human history, and the deadly disease now seems to be in decline there.

    Meanwhile, the disease naturally leaks back into the US, and despite all the advance warning, our totally incompetent government mismanages the situation, producing a huge national health disaster, and the collapse of our economy and decrepit political system.

    As I said, not particularly likely, but certainly a very fitting end to the American Empire…
     
    https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/who-made-coronavirus-was-it-the-u-s-israel-or-china-itself/?showcomments#comment-3753228

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @A123, @JohnnyWalker123

    The UK claims they’ve decreased their R0 from 2.6 to 0.6

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/uk-r0-supposed-to-have-fallen-from-2-6-to-0-6/

    Do you find this at all plausible?

    If they’ve been successful, why does the below resemble an exponential function?

    Something seems off….

  54. @prime noticer
    as i said they would. but it's worse than that. Trump, who was correct the entire time about open borders, China, and treasonous Democrats, will be punished. Democrats, who were wrong the entire time about China and open borders, will be rewarded.

    China gets everything they want here. Joe Biden will be President, Trump will leave office. China gets to kill thousands of Americans and cost us 2 trillion dollars and get away with it. the bad guys win.

    that's how it's going to be. we're returning to historically normal times where the bad guys usually win. America was an anomaly.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Nah, globohomo seemed pretty evil.

    I LOVE YOU CORONA-CHAN! <3

  55. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people...

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying "No Problem!" and "It's Just the Flu!!!" and now that they've found out they HAVE a problem and "It's NOT the Flu!" they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I've pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there's a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Replies: @UK, @22pp22, @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @A123, @obwandiyag, @Joe Stalin, @Audacious Epigone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean, @Thomm, @The Alarmist, @Thea, @Corvinus

  56. @d dan
    This is funny.

    US government and Americans are very unfriendly toward China and Chinese, and treat them like enemy. Then they turn around and claim that China is unfriendly or is an enemy.

    The following is just a small sample of unfriendly actions by US government and people toward China:

    1. Go halfway around the world to setup military bases and bioweapon labs around China - all in the name of deterring "China aggression".
    2. Interfering in China's internal affairs since 1945 when US supported Chiang kai shek, and continuing today with Taiwan, Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Tibet, etc.
    3. Voluntarily invest in China and then accusing China of stealing American jobs.
    4. Voluntarily transfer tech and then accusing China of stealing American tech.
    5. Interfering into China's disputes with neighboring countries about some small islands and reefs.
    6. 24/7 mainstream media and politicians' bombardments about China's human rights and political systems.
    7. Sanctions on Chinese companies like ZTE, Huawei, DJI, etc, all in the name of alleged military ties with PLA or "potential" security threats.
    8. Arresting scientists and engineers who voluntarily working with China (e.g. Harvard's Lieber and other American Chinese).
    9. Asserting extra-territorial laws to China, e.g. prohibiting Chinese companies' trades with Iran, even arresting their CFO for alleging violating Iran's sanctions.
    10. Repeated attempts to isolate China diplomatically in UN, G7, G20, ...

    Let's face it: it is the US that is behaving extremely hostile toward China, not the other way around. Most of Chinese so-called "unfriendly" actions and words are just defensive reactions.

    Replies: @Fidelios Automata, @DB Cooper, @Audacious Epigone

    All true. The stripping of our industry is the fault of our greedy CEOs and somnolent government. Still doesn’t mean China isn’t the bad guy sometimes.

    • Replies: @Tusk
    @Fidelios Automata

    As I mentioned in a previous comment the shipping of industry, while greedy CEOs are part of the problem, the ideological foundation and energy to move industry abroad came from Jewish interests.

    To quote:


    It was in the 1930s that [Sidney] Rittenberg rejected a career as a lawyer and became a trade union and civil rights activist. He then went a little further. He became a communist, learnt Chinese, went to China, joined Mao Zedong’s guerrillas fighting Chiang Kai-shek’s nationalists, emerged after the communist victory as a senior party member close to Mao, ran Radio Peking, translated Mao’s thoughts into English, became a leading rabble rouser in the Cultural Revolution – and, by the by, was imprisoned for 16 years in solitary confinement, accused of being a US spy. Then he came back to the US and made a fortune advising American companies on how to get into China
     
    I wonder why a Jewish communist who worked with Mao eventually came back to America and helped capitalists get into the Chinese market?


    What Bolshevism and Capitalism have in common is the ghastly fact that both of them are equally Jewish.
     
  57. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people...

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying "No Problem!" and "It's Just the Flu!!!" and now that they've found out they HAVE a problem and "It's NOT the Flu!" they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I've pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there's a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Replies: @UK, @22pp22, @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @A123, @obwandiyag, @Joe Stalin, @Audacious Epigone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean, @Thomm, @The Alarmist, @Thea, @Corvinus

    The schizophrenic, disjointed, contradictory US government response and China’s potential culpability need not be mutually exclusive. The former is beyond dispute. I think the latter is still an open question, though.

    China could have been more forthcoming in December, January, and February. And if current reporting is to be believed, China should now be far more forthcoming about what the secret has been to effectively wipe the virus out within its borders than it has been.

    In case it was not obvious, the joke about being a paid shill had the CCP in mind. Despite my no doubt offering takes now and again Ron finds incorrect or irrelevant, he has never so much as hinted towards any editorial control over anything on this blog. There is no greater champion of honest inquiry and free expression than Ron Unz.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian, 22pp22
    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Audacious Epigone


    China could have been more forthcoming in December, January, and February. And if current reporting is to be believed, China should now be far more forthcoming about what the secret has been to effectively wipe the virus out within its borders than it has been.
     
    I really don't know what you mean by this. China's "secret" in effectively wiping out the virus was to shut down its entire economy and lock down 700 million Chinese for a couple of months or so. It was on the front page of all the newspapers. They also did a huge amount of testing and contact-tracing.

    Meanwhile, South Korea, Singapore, etc. took early steps to head off an epidemic using various public measures.

    The bottom line is that we have a totally incompetent national government that said "No Problem!" for a couple of months and did almost nothing, so that vast numbers of Americans will now die.

    Indeed, I think some of the pro-Trump shills like Limbaugh may *still* be claiming "It's Just the Flu!!!" and no big deal.

    Why would China need to give us the "mysterious secret" of how to combat an ordinary flu epidemic?

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Audacious Epigone

    , @Tor597
    @Audacious Epigone

    What exactly did China do that was not transparent? A lot of right wing pundits are saying that China tried to cover up their true stats and really millions of Chinese are dead.

    The truth is, what China experienced is exactly what you see in every other country. The true number of infected was a lot higher, but there was lack of testing in the beginning. Also there is confusion on how to classify + cases or deaths since so many are classified based on symptoms alone or have multiple conditions. This is exactly what you see in Italy and other nations, but there is no mass hysteria against Italy.

    In fact, it is America that has been the least transparent of all countries. This is one if the reasons to be suspicious of American culpability. What is America trying to hide? Keep in mind that China probably saw this as a bio attack and not a natural disaster.

    As far as China hiding their secret cure, that just says more about yourself than China. China has been very transparent on what they have tried and what works. It was China that first started Chloroquine. Meanwhile so many alt fighters want to say it was a French guy who invented this miracle cure.

    A big reason you think there is a big miracle cure China is using or others think millions died is because of American cope. Americans can't fathom another country it used to assemble toys could be more competent than itself. So the response is a lot of whining about how they didn't tell us it was going to be more than the flu!

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone, @dfordoom

  58. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people...

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying "No Problem!" and "It's Just the Flu!!!" and now that they've found out they HAVE a problem and "It's NOT the Flu!" they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I've pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there's a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Replies: @UK, @22pp22, @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @A123, @obwandiyag, @Joe Stalin, @Audacious Epigone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean, @Thomm, @The Alarmist, @Thea, @Corvinus

    Finally, there’s a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons

    Most of the comment- OK; this part- not very convincing.

  59. Yahya K. says:
    @Bragadocious
    @DanHessinMD

    Unz is obsessed with Israel, as are many around here.

    The Chinese seem to like the Palestinians a bit (I do too btw) and throw occasional shade on Israel so therefore everything else they do is hunky-dory, in Unz's bizarre worldview. But all that pro-Palestine stuff is bullshit, as we can see here.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/imagecache/mbdxxlarge/mritems/Images/2018/10/23/1856372be3aa417f83c5b2e83c656c1f_18.jpg

    But yeah, he definitely brings the crazy. I'm reminded of this story on Unz from 1999, describing his living arrangements:


    The huge living room contains not a stick of furniture. The fridge holds mostly Gatorade, muffins, and frozen snacks; Unz, a 37-year-old bachelor, eats half his meals at Burger King. He sleeps on a mattress on the floor. The bathrooms are dirty, and the dust is thick. There’s no one who comes in to clean, no photos on display, and no escaping the thought that a well-heeled businessman has to have a screw loose to live this way.

     

    Filthy bathrooms.

    Eats at Burger King all the time.

    Eschews the company of women.

    This guy wants the world to end. He's Ted Kaczynski with a bigger bankroll.

    Replies: @Yahya K., @Tusk

    It would be a very good idea for China, geopolitically, to voice support for Palestine. They would gain favor with the Islamic World, and specifically the Gulf States, whom they need oil from. And I’m sure that once China makes its foray into the Middle East, and attempts to wrestle influence away from America, they will win over the Arab states easily that way. They may lose Israel, but what use is Israel to the Chinese (or the Americans for that matter)?

    Not that I support us Arabs abandoning America. I happen to like and admire America a bit more than China, so I would personally stick with America. But it would be shrewd of the Chinese to side with Arabs on the Arab-Israeli conflict. There is an opening here for them to get more influence (and secure oil access) in this part of the world. The US is even retreating a bit (while doubling down on their support for Israel) and allowing this opening to widen.

  60. @Bragadocious
    @DanHessinMD

    Unz is obsessed with Israel, as are many around here.

    The Chinese seem to like the Palestinians a bit (I do too btw) and throw occasional shade on Israel so therefore everything else they do is hunky-dory, in Unz's bizarre worldview. But all that pro-Palestine stuff is bullshit, as we can see here.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/imagecache/mbdxxlarge/mritems/Images/2018/10/23/1856372be3aa417f83c5b2e83c656c1f_18.jpg

    But yeah, he definitely brings the crazy. I'm reminded of this story on Unz from 1999, describing his living arrangements:


    The huge living room contains not a stick of furniture. The fridge holds mostly Gatorade, muffins, and frozen snacks; Unz, a 37-year-old bachelor, eats half his meals at Burger King. He sleeps on a mattress on the floor. The bathrooms are dirty, and the dust is thick. There’s no one who comes in to clean, no photos on display, and no escaping the thought that a well-heeled businessman has to have a screw loose to live this way.

     

    Filthy bathrooms.

    Eats at Burger King all the time.

    Eschews the company of women.

    This guy wants the world to end. He's Ted Kaczynski with a bigger bankroll.

    Replies: @Yahya K., @Tusk

    Based. Uncle Ted and Uncle Ron here to save us all.

  61. @Fidelios Automata
    @d dan

    All true. The stripping of our industry is the fault of our greedy CEOs and somnolent government. Still doesn't mean China isn't the bad guy sometimes.

    Replies: @Tusk

    As I mentioned in a previous comment the shipping of industry, while greedy CEOs are part of the problem, the ideological foundation and energy to move industry abroad came from Jewish interests.

    To quote:

    It was in the 1930s that [Sidney] Rittenberg rejected a career as a lawyer and became a trade union and civil rights activist. He then went a little further. He became a communist, learnt Chinese, went to China, joined Mao Zedong’s guerrillas fighting Chiang Kai-shek’s nationalists, emerged after the communist victory as a senior party member close to Mao, ran Radio Peking, translated Mao’s thoughts into English, became a leading rabble rouser in the Cultural Revolution – and, by the by, was imprisoned for 16 years in solitary confinement, accused of being a US spy. Then he came back to the US and made a fortune advising American companies on how to get into China

    I wonder why a Jewish communist who worked with Mao eventually came back to America and helped capitalists get into the Chinese market?

    What Bolshevism and Capitalism have in common is the ghastly fact that both of them are equally Jewish.

  62. What?

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Anon

    Yikes.

    It's incompetence at every level--the CDC is now tacitly admitting that masks were the way to go from the beginning by offering a slightly more sophisticated excuse for failure.

  63. @d dan
    This is funny.

    US government and Americans are very unfriendly toward China and Chinese, and treat them like enemy. Then they turn around and claim that China is unfriendly or is an enemy.

    The following is just a small sample of unfriendly actions by US government and people toward China:

    1. Go halfway around the world to setup military bases and bioweapon labs around China - all in the name of deterring "China aggression".
    2. Interfering in China's internal affairs since 1945 when US supported Chiang kai shek, and continuing today with Taiwan, Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Tibet, etc.
    3. Voluntarily invest in China and then accusing China of stealing American jobs.
    4. Voluntarily transfer tech and then accusing China of stealing American tech.
    5. Interfering into China's disputes with neighboring countries about some small islands and reefs.
    6. 24/7 mainstream media and politicians' bombardments about China's human rights and political systems.
    7. Sanctions on Chinese companies like ZTE, Huawei, DJI, etc, all in the name of alleged military ties with PLA or "potential" security threats.
    8. Arresting scientists and engineers who voluntarily working with China (e.g. Harvard's Lieber and other American Chinese).
    9. Asserting extra-territorial laws to China, e.g. prohibiting Chinese companies' trades with Iran, even arresting their CFO for alleging violating Iran's sanctions.
    10. Repeated attempts to isolate China diplomatically in UN, G7, G20, ...

    Let's face it: it is the US that is behaving extremely hostile toward China, not the other way around. Most of Chinese so-called "unfriendly" actions and words are just defensive reactions.

    Replies: @Fidelios Automata, @DB Cooper, @Audacious Epigone

    ” Interfering in China’s internal affairs since 1945 when US supported Chiang kai shek, and continuing today with Taiwan, Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Tibet, etc.”

    Well the US has been supporting Chiang Kai Shek (and help fighting the Japanese in China before Pearl Harbor happened) long before the Communist came to power. The Soviet Union on the other hand has long been the largest land grabber of China and sits on the sideline during the whole Japanese invasion. The Soviet Union has signed a mutual neutrality pact with Japan during the Sino-Japanese war and only unilaterally abrogated it two days after Japan was nuked by the US. An opportunistic act to make itself a power to the war victor parties in the pacific theater without sacrificing a single soldier. Then the Soviet Union poured its red army into China’s northeast to grab more land from China. It was only under Roosevelt’s pressure that Stalin finally pulled his troops back to the Soviet Union. US was friendly with China at that time and the Soviet Union has been actively coveting Chinese land as late the end of WWII. Whoever collude with the land grabber of your country and accept your land grabber as your patron is the biggest traitor of his country. And whoever fight the country that help your country is an asshole. You know who I am talking, the piece of shit fucking Mao fucking Ze fucking Dong.

  64. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people...

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying "No Problem!" and "It's Just the Flu!!!" and now that they've found out they HAVE a problem and "It's NOT the Flu!" they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I've pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there's a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Replies: @UK, @22pp22, @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @A123, @obwandiyag, @Joe Stalin, @Audacious Epigone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean, @Thomm, @The Alarmist, @Thea, @Corvinus

    A past post suggested that a cabal behind a US bioweapon attack on China might have thought that since the SARS pathogen caused chaos in the East Asia, but no epidemic in America that the cousin of the SARS pathogen, SARS-CoV-2 would behave similarly. How could this be so; if they had created it they’d know certain pertinent facts:-

    https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/03/ace2-how-researchers-think-coronavirus-attacks-cells-and-how-it-could-be-stopped.html
    Q: What is the theoretical relationship between ACE2 and COVID-19?

    A: SARS and the virus that causes COVID-19, (SARS-CoV-2), are very similar in genetic makeup. Both have the spike that would connect to the receptor. That’s where the coronavirus gets its name; corona means crown in Latin, and the virus has crown-like spikes.

    Linda Saif, a virologist and distinguished university professor at Ohio State University, wrote in an email that several studies have reported that SARS CoV-2 has higher affinity for binding to ACE2 than SARS and this contributes to its more efficient transmission in humans

    The spike (suspected to be from a pangolin virus origin and to have got into SARS-CoV-2 by the two viruses recombining) would have been the gain of function modification. Hence SARS-CoV-2 would be know, as definitely different than SARS both having been tested. No they are not going to use something without testing. Also, given their deep seated distrust of antisemitism arising in white gentile society under conditions of societal breakdown, neocons would be extremely wary of the slightest possibility of a global pandemic. Why weaken China, somewhere all the (substantially Jewish) hedge fund industry are heavily invested in? A deeper than Deep State Strangelovian clique of the military?

    https://www.stripes.com/news/us/air-force-general-behind-5g-memo-leaves-white-house-1.509849
    A senior administration official confirmed that Air Force Brig. Gen. Robert Spalding is no longer serving as NSC senior director for strategic planning. Spalding was not fired, according to the official, who said his detail had ended and was not renewed. His last day as a White House staffer was Jan. 31. Spalding was not implicated in the leak of the memo, but officials said his advocacy for the plan had gone beyond his role, contributing to the NSC leadership’s decision to send him back to the Air Force.

    Spalding was informed that his White House tenure was ending last week, the senior administration official said, before his memo and PowerPoint proposal were leaked. The Jan. 28 Axios story sparked alarm, drawing opposition from major telecom companies and catching the White House off guard.

    The Pentagon are not stupid or reckless enough to do something that can get them the death penalty if done without proper chain of command orders. Commands emanating from some mid level blob would be rejected, doubly so as they would be unlawful and against the military take, besides which, executing such an order might spark WW3. The Chinese are believed to be lying about their epidemic by understating infected and death too presumably) by 15 to 40 times. Were it a bioweapon attack China would already have determined that fact and for all they know the same US cabal is preparing a more targeted rapid follow up attack that will decemate China and hit the young instead of old. Were COVID-19 a US bioweapon attack, China would be threatening the US with war as we speak. Please don’t take this as an insult but I think you have lost the place of late. I think you should ask a trusted friend to recommend a therapist. You would not try to be your own lawyer or dentist, no shame in consulting a psychologist .

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Sean

    Whitney Webb, who has been published before here on The Unz Review, has a very interesting series of articles coming out examining the pandemic simulations the US government conducted just months before this outbreak, and their connections to various national security/deep state figures and past bioweapon and pandemic simulations and the anthrax attacks shortly after 9/11. The first article was published yesterday.

    https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/top-news/all-roads-lead-dark-winter/


    The leaders of two controversial pandemic simulations that took place just months before the Coronavirus crisis – Event 201 and Crimson Contagion – share a common history, the 2001 biowarfare simulation Dark Winter. Dark Winter not only predicted the 2001 anthrax attacks, but some of its participants had clear foreknowledge of those attacks.
     
    , @Tor597
    @Sean

    Lol.

    Are you even serious? The pentagon has a long history of flouting the chain of command and doing whatever the hell its masters in the deep state tell it.

    You need to deprogram yourself from American propaganda. Americans who engage in dirty work never pay the price. Look at Olie North. He served a token penalty and was rewarded with a nice media gig.

  65. @Intelligent Dasein

    Sentiments went virtually unchanged.
     
    That word, sentiments, probably explains why. It probably isn't very useful to ask ordinary people how they might feel about China. If I consult my gut, I don't have any particularly bad feelings about China or the Chinese people either. The subject is too large, vague, and far away. But even the most rudimentary rational analysis tells you that China should not be trusted. We've let China walk in and out of our country with every sort of technology and industrial secret they wanted. They've taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can't even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help. China has done a number on us, and we have only ourselves to blame. They're crafty and wily, and we're lazy and stupid. I doubt that hating China would lead to anything productive, but we've got to end this dysfunctional relationship.

    Apropos of that subject, my suspicion is that the corona lockdown has progressed too far to be reversed now. The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book), but the cultural and economic dislocations are not going to be reset to the status quo ante. We're on a path now that must be trodden to the end. The whole globalist system and its many political, social, and economic arrangements is coming apart. "It's a long road with no turning, pally," as Shelly Levene said.

    The metaphor here is not "This is our World War Two," which historically illiterate Boomer cosplay and manifest nonsense. This is, however, our World War One. This is the time when our sclerotic elites, comfortable for way too long and betraying a stunning lack of creativity and foresight, dragged the world into chaos and destruction over a minor incident, and fielded a system interlocking powers and tensions that could accomplish nothing but its own self-destruction at enormous cost.

    Replies: @obwandiyag, @obwandiyag, @YetAnotherAnon, @Twinkie, @LoutishAngloQuebecker, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Audacious Epigone, @Thea

    My thinking at this point is we were heading towards the edge. Coronavirus pushed us over, but something was going to soon anyway. The economic dislocation that will characterize the next several years will initially try to be pinned on coronavirus, but it will become clear in time–after coronavirus has become like another strain of the flu–that the problems ran much deeper. Yossarian’s Snowden, I’ll call it.

    • Replies: @Pontius
    @Audacious Epigone

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHUEYIE_MZA

  66. @Achmed E. Newman
    I'd like to see the data broken out into those 2 unfavorable categories separately. I know I've written this sort of thing for a decent number of your polls, but "unfriendly" can mean different things to different people too. By "enemy" do people mean economic enemy (which it basically is, because there is always competition, one they've been kicking our ass in as of late), or do they care that we must keep the sea lanes in the South China Sea open or something?

    It doesn't seem to indicate much change, but I wonder if a question about the "Chinese people" would? There are some who take the origin of the virus, assumed by them to be the eating of exotic animals, as a reason to hate the Chinese people, while most just use the term "Chinese Flu" to indicate its origins, not any kind of blame.

    As far as the absolute numbers go, it does look like the over-45 set and/or R's may still have Cold War era thoughts in their heads, or are they just wiser?

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Very little change in those two, with “unfriendly” over “enemy” by about 3-to-2 in both polls.

    • Thanks: Achmed E. Newman
  67. @Elmer's Washable School Glue
    @Ron Unz


    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump.
     
    I largely agree with the sentiment expressed here but I don't see the American government in particular as acting any worse then the Western average. Did Italy or the UK perform any better? Sweden, often the object of fascinated admiration among leftists, *still* hasn't institiued a lockdown.

    Also, I'll throw this out there: if the US government had issued early and comprehensive flight bans from China (and Europe when the time came), there would have been no need for a lockdown. And the people groaning the most about those bans when they did arrive (late) were complaining that Trump was being *too* severe, that he *shouldn't* have limited travel. This is part of a pattern: people whine and kvetch about not wanting shutdown measures to prevent damage to the "economy," despite the fact that every day the measures are delayed, cumulative economic damage will increase.

    Coronavirus reflects poorly on the entire West, revealing its horribly incompetant and rotting state instiutions, in stark contrast to the incredible relative efficiency of China, Russia, Vietnam, etc. Even India under evil demagogue Modi has been far more competant in its response. (See: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/quarantine-india-covid-19-coronavirus/) Unfortunately media propganda prevents both left and right from seeing "liberal democracy" as the shitshow it has been revealed to be.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Had Trump came in fighting for the America First agenda he campaigned on and refused to relent, he would’ve looked like the ultimate seer. The majority of Americans would be Mark Antony trying to force the crown on his head. Instead it’s dysfunction all the way down. Get used to it.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Audacious Epigone


    Had Trump came in fighting for the America First agenda he campaigned on and refused to relent, he would’ve looked like the ultimate seer. The majority of Americans would be Mark Antony trying to force the crown on his head. Instead it’s dysfunction all the way down. Get used to it.
     
    Trump is President. Not King or Emperor. Unrealistic expectations that Trump would transcend the Constitution via supernatural divine powers was never going to be. The mentally weak, desperate for instant gratification, are now Bernie Bros.

    Am I happy that Trump prioritized trade over H1B/OPT visas? No.

    However, all rational Americans grasp that the situation he inherited from Barack Hussein was 100% dysfunction. Getting that down to 50% dysfunction is a vast improvement in 3 years.

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  68. @DanHessinMD
    AE --

    I would make sure this blog is fully backed up somewhere. I would do that today.

    Taki's?

    The blog host is totally unhinged at this point.

    Total hatred of conservatives -- which is ironic given that COVID-19 is overwhelmingly a blue-state phenomenon (by about 6 to 1). Blaming conservatives for this virus and saying neocons probably started it. Wut? Even CNN isn't saying that!

    Somehow red-staters in flyover country who mostly stay at home and don't even own passports are to blame? Even though this is is overwhelmingly an urban and blue-state phenomenon?

    Given that this is a conservative blog and your blog host has suddenly turned panicky-extreme-left-wing, I'd be worried that broad destruction of content is coming shortly.

    Lion of the Blogosphere turned left-wing in a panic and destroyed more than 10 years of comments.

    Would be a shame to see that here.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Bragadocious, @Audacious Epigone, @MEH 0910

    While I appreciate the concern, you’re misreading Ron. He’s done heroic work to preserve perspectives of all kinds that would otherwise be lost to time.

  69. @songbird

    notable exceptions are among blacks, Democrats, and the elderly–all of whom report having become less hostile towards China over the course of the last month.
     
    What explains this? Random walk? Sampling error? Or sympathy?

    I'm not surprised by the rest of it. I think basically only two things can change international opinions, invading a country, or a concerted media attack. China has enough money and influence to avoid the second. Its age structure also makes the first pretty unlikely.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    The change among the elderly is the most surprising. The partisan angle–which captures blacks and Democrats–is less so.

  70. @DanHessinMD
    AE --

    I would make sure this blog is fully backed up somewhere. I would do that today.

    Taki's?

    The blog host is totally unhinged at this point.

    Total hatred of conservatives -- which is ironic given that COVID-19 is overwhelmingly a blue-state phenomenon (by about 6 to 1). Blaming conservatives for this virus and saying neocons probably started it. Wut? Even CNN isn't saying that!

    Somehow red-staters in flyover country who mostly stay at home and don't even own passports are to blame? Even though this is is overwhelmingly an urban and blue-state phenomenon?

    Given that this is a conservative blog and your blog host has suddenly turned panicky-extreme-left-wing, I'd be worried that broad destruction of content is coming shortly.

    Lion of the Blogosphere turned left-wing in a panic and destroyed more than 10 years of comments.

    Would be a shame to see that here.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Bragadocious, @Audacious Epigone, @MEH 0910

    The old comments are still up at Lion’s blog, and he has a new post up:

    • Replies: @Tor597
    @MEH 0910

    When did Lion turn against Trump? Was it solely due to the Corona Virus?

  71. @Intelligent Dasein
    Here is the latest graph, current as of 04/01/2020

    https://i1.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/corona-deaths-20200401.png?w=717&ssl=1

    Here are the essential takeaways. Every country, South Korea excepted, is following the same trajectory regardless of which suite of possible social distancing measures is adopted. Also, every country is flattening considerably once they rise above the 0.1% mortality rate.

    In other words, social distancing is having no effect other than creating social and economic chaos. Other than tried and true prophylactic measures such as hand-washing and mask-wearing, there is nothing anybody can do to stop the spread of the virus, but the good news is it really isn't necessary to bother trying. The total death rate will level off at something not significantly higher than 0.1% of the worst affected populations (the 0.3% figure bandied about looks to be a good guess at the upper bound), with virtually all of those deaths occuring among the very old and/or very sick.

    It's three flu seasons rolled in to one, almost exactly. Not insignificant, but very far from being the end of the world. But as I mentioned in my post above, the virus itself is an afterthought at this point. The changing world going forward is now the subject of primary concern. It was no coincidence that this overblown response, in itself a permanent possibility of our state apparatus, happened to occur just now. For some reason, a subtle mood shift took place all over the world at about the same moment, the flock changed direction, and globalism as we knew it was given up with a shrug. The fallout from this event will be with us for a long, long time. The responsible ones among us must start to look at it and analyze it.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Mark G., @Dumbo, @Twinkie, @Ron Unz

    It’s almost amusing that the memory of your past comments has disappeared so quickly. Remember this from just a few days ago?

    https://www.unz.com/anepigone/rock-and-a-hard-place/#comment-3799902

    It looks like Italy and Spain are starting to level off without yet breaking above the flu zone.

    Your “nothingburger” goal Post keeps moving.

  72. @d dan
    This is funny.

    US government and Americans are very unfriendly toward China and Chinese, and treat them like enemy. Then they turn around and claim that China is unfriendly or is an enemy.

    The following is just a small sample of unfriendly actions by US government and people toward China:

    1. Go halfway around the world to setup military bases and bioweapon labs around China - all in the name of deterring "China aggression".
    2. Interfering in China's internal affairs since 1945 when US supported Chiang kai shek, and continuing today with Taiwan, Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Tibet, etc.
    3. Voluntarily invest in China and then accusing China of stealing American jobs.
    4. Voluntarily transfer tech and then accusing China of stealing American tech.
    5. Interfering into China's disputes with neighboring countries about some small islands and reefs.
    6. 24/7 mainstream media and politicians' bombardments about China's human rights and political systems.
    7. Sanctions on Chinese companies like ZTE, Huawei, DJI, etc, all in the name of alleged military ties with PLA or "potential" security threats.
    8. Arresting scientists and engineers who voluntarily working with China (e.g. Harvard's Lieber and other American Chinese).
    9. Asserting extra-territorial laws to China, e.g. prohibiting Chinese companies' trades with Iran, even arresting their CFO for alleging violating Iran's sanctions.
    10. Repeated attempts to isolate China diplomatically in UN, G7, G20, ...

    Let's face it: it is the US that is behaving extremely hostile toward China, not the other way around. Most of Chinese so-called "unfriendly" actions and words are just defensive reactions.

    Replies: @Fidelios Automata, @DB Cooper, @Audacious Epigone

    That could be, but it doesn’t change the results of the assessment. Whether America is an angel or a devil, she still has interests and this is a measure of how Americans think China plays into those interests.

  73. @Audacious Epigone
    @Intelligent Dasein

    My thinking at this point is we were heading towards the edge. Coronavirus pushed us over, but something was going to soon anyway. The economic dislocation that will characterize the next several years will initially try to be pinned on coronavirus, but it will become clear in time--after coronavirus has become like another strain of the flu--that the problems ran much deeper. Yossarian's Snowden, I'll call it.

    Replies: @Pontius

  74. @Audacious Epigone
    @Elmer's Washable School Glue

    Had Trump came in fighting for the America First agenda he campaigned on and refused to relent, he would've looked like the ultimate seer. The majority of Americans would be Mark Antony trying to force the crown on his head. Instead it's dysfunction all the way down. Get used to it.

    Replies: @A123

    Had Trump came in fighting for the America First agenda he campaigned on and refused to relent, he would’ve looked like the ultimate seer. The majority of Americans would be Mark Antony trying to force the crown on his head. Instead it’s dysfunction all the way down. Get used to it.

    Trump is President. Not King or Emperor. Unrealistic expectations that Trump would transcend the Constitution via supernatural divine powers was never going to be. The mentally weak, desperate for instant gratification, are now Bernie Bros.

    Am I happy that Trump prioritized trade over H1B/OPT visas? No.

    However, all rational Americans grasp that the situation he inherited from Barack Hussein was 100% dysfunction. Getting that down to 50% dysfunction is a vast improvement in 3 years.

    PEACE 😷

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @A123

    I'd like to agree with you on Trump, A123, but I'll present this with only one quick comment:

    Trump Says Without Cheap Foreign Labor "We're Not Going to Have Farms"

    Quick comment: He can really be an imbecile sometimes, as this kind of blabbering is not a one-off. He didn't need to prioritize anything here - he just needed to shut up.

    Replies: @A123

  75. Anonymous[187] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    @Ron Unz

    A past post suggested that a cabal behind a US bioweapon attack on China might have thought that since the SARS pathogen caused chaos in the East Asia, but no epidemic in America that the cousin of the SARS pathogen, SARS-CoV-2 would behave similarly. How could this be so; if they had created it they'd know certain pertinent facts:-


    https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/03/ace2-how-researchers-think-coronavirus-attacks-cells-and-how-it-could-be-stopped.html
    Q: What is the theoretical relationship between ACE2 and COVID-19?

    A: SARS and the virus that causes COVID-19, (SARS-CoV-2), are very similar in genetic makeup. Both have the spike that would connect to the receptor. That’s where the coronavirus gets its name; corona means crown in Latin, and the virus has crown-like spikes.

    Linda Saif, a virologist and distinguished university professor at Ohio State University, wrote in an email that several studies have reported that SARS CoV-2 has higher affinity for binding to ACE2 than SARS and this contributes to its more efficient transmission in humans
     

    The spike (suspected to be from a pangolin virus origin and to have got into SARS-CoV-2 by the two viruses recombining) would have been the gain of function modification. Hence SARS-CoV-2 would be know, as definitely different than SARS both having been tested. No they are not going to use something without testing. Also, given their deep seated distrust of antisemitism arising in white gentile society under conditions of societal breakdown, neocons would be extremely wary of the slightest possibility of a global pandemic. Why weaken China, somewhere all the (substantially Jewish) hedge fund industry are heavily invested in? A deeper than Deep State Strangelovian clique of the military?

    https://www.stripes.com/news/us/air-force-general-behind-5g-memo-leaves-white-house-1.509849
    A senior administration official confirmed that Air Force Brig. Gen. Robert Spalding is no longer serving as NSC senior director for strategic planning. Spalding was not fired, according to the official, who said his detail had ended and was not renewed. His last day as a White House staffer was Jan. 31. Spalding was not implicated in the leak of the memo, but officials said his advocacy for the plan had gone beyond his role, contributing to the NSC leadership's decision to send him back to the Air Force.

    Spalding was informed that his White House tenure was ending last week, the senior administration official said, before his memo and PowerPoint proposal were leaked. The Jan. 28 Axios story sparked alarm, drawing opposition from major telecom companies and catching the White House off guard.
     

    The Pentagon are not stupid or reckless enough to do something that can get them the death penalty if done without proper chain of command orders. Commands emanating from some mid level blob would be rejected, doubly so as they would be unlawful and against the military take, besides which, executing such an order might spark WW3. The Chinese are believed to be lying about their epidemic by understating infected and death too presumably) by 15 to 40 times. Were it a bioweapon attack China would already have determined that fact and for all they know the same US cabal is preparing a more targeted rapid follow up attack that will decemate China and hit the young instead of old. Were COVID-19 a US bioweapon attack, China would be threatening the US with war as we speak. Please don't take this as an insult but I think you have lost the place of late. I think you should ask a trusted friend to recommend a therapist. You would not try to be your own lawyer or dentist, no shame in consulting a psychologist .

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Tor597

    Whitney Webb, who has been published before here on The Unz Review, has a very interesting series of articles coming out examining the pandemic simulations the US government conducted just months before this outbreak, and their connections to various national security/deep state figures and past bioweapon and pandemic simulations and the anthrax attacks shortly after 9/11. The first article was published yesterday.

    https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/top-news/all-roads-lead-dark-winter/

    The leaders of two controversial pandemic simulations that took place just months before the Coronavirus crisis – Event 201 and Crimson Contagion – share a common history, the 2001 biowarfare simulation Dark Winter. Dark Winter not only predicted the 2001 anthrax attacks, but some of its participants had clear foreknowledge of those attacks.

  76. @Intelligent Dasein
    @Achmed E. Newman


    I’d like to read other commenters’ including our host A.E.’s of course, opinions regarding this question. Why are we divided on the way to handle the Kung Flu?
     
    Among otherwise sincere people who are not flogging one side or the other due to personal involvement, strong passions, or ulterior motives, I would think it comes down to a matter of trust. For example, my philosophical support for the death penalty is unshakeable; my existential support for the death penalty, however, waxes and wanes along with my confidence that the government is going to apply it properly. Anybody who has ever been wrongly imprisoned would be understandably leary of the government doling out punishments, especially the ultimate punishement, even if he is quite comfortable with such punishments in principle.

    My concerns about Covid-19 are existential and not philosophical. I have no argument in principle with which to oppose the lockdown, because there isn't one. There may be circumstances in which a lockdown is necesary. But I have no existential confidence that this type of lockdown is either useful or necessary in the nonce, or that our government can manage this without making matters worse than what the disease would have been in the first place.

    Existential confidence is a matter of what Aristotle called prudence, i.e. the ability to know what is good for human beings in definite circumstances. It is not a matter of mere intelligence, and IQ has nothing to with it. That explains why so many bright people are on the wrong side of the issue, and it also explains why those of us on the right side of the issue cannot always articulate the point clearly.

    Replies: @Adam Smith, @The Alarmist

    I Agree…(!)

    It all comes down to trust.

  77. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people...

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying "No Problem!" and "It's Just the Flu!!!" and now that they've found out they HAVE a problem and "It's NOT the Flu!" they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I've pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there's a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Replies: @UK, @22pp22, @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @A123, @obwandiyag, @Joe Stalin, @Audacious Epigone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean, @Thomm, @The Alarmist, @Thea, @Corvinus

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    At least the true agenda of this site has been admitted.

  78. @res
    @Twinkie

    This site looks at US health system capacity and estimates a peak mid-late May. Any thoughts on that?
    https://qventus.com/blog/predicting-the-effects-of-the-covid-pandemic-on-us-health-system-capacity/

    Replies: @A123, @Twinkie

    That’s a very rough approximation and it also depends heavily on the three-tiered assumptions of severity based on past severe flu pandemics. As far as modeling goes, it looks all right to me, but of course the accuracy depends on the assumptions that are frankly all over the place on this new virus, about which we still don’t know much.

    There are just so many variable differences between the U.S. of today compared to the country in 1959 or 1918, let alone other countries, I think the confidence on any prediction has to be very low.

    With so much that is unknown or little understood, it’s a “hope for the best, prepare for the worst” kind of scenario for me.

    • Thanks: res
  79. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Intelligent Dasein

    OK, that was getting long, so here's my main point, or really a question:

    This divide is not along the usual political lines, I don't think. My family is a good example of that. I'm not talking about the doling out of the MegaBucks by the Feral Gov., as the solution to the problem governments have caused. That is indeed political along the usual dividing lines.

    Where are we getting our widely-differing perspectives from? In my opinion, it's a matter of time spent in from of the idiot plate, but, especially with the young people who don't so much, but spent 10-25% of their waking hours looking at their little screens, the ease of keeping up with the numbers involved in this "horror" have them sucked in.*

    This severe flu variant is the best thing that happened to the Lyin' Press and the whole infotainment-industrial-complex since OJ! This time it's truly 24/7 for anyone who is addicted to news. Those, like myself, who think back to the previous 3 or 4 new virus strains out of E. Asia, and the normality of life with excess death rates of the same order-of-magnitude, and don't spend so much time with the infotainment, have a much different attitude.

    I am just so sick of hearing about this Kung Flu, not because I don't want advice that I don't like, but because it is being used to change the country. Every change that I've seen since the middle 1990s has been FOR THE WORSE, so that's what I expect. If people calmed the hell down, and got their eyes, ears, and minds off this for good while, I think they would see things differently.

    I'd like to read other commenters' including our host A.E.'s of course, opinions regarding this question. Why are we divided on the way to handle the Kung Flu?

    Right now, it's beautiful outside. We're going to the park (one kid's Mom has the same attitude as me, but that guy can't come today). We're going to throw the frisbee. We'll going hiking again sometime soon. Kids (least at my house) are learning in 3 hours what takes a day or two in school. Recess has been running from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours. Fresh air and vitamin D, bitchez!


    .

    * Look at Steve Sailer, an erudite guy with lots of common sense. If this were TEOTWAWKI due to this disease, I could see blogging 80% of posts about it. It's not! I could see doing a lot more blogging about the financial/economic fallout and what lies ahead due to this panic-fest, such as our Mr. Epigone here has done a few times already.

    Replies: @Talha, @Intelligent Dasein, @dfordoom, @Adam Smith, @Adam Smith

    I am just so sick of hearing about this Kung Flu, not because I don’t want advice that I don’t like, but because it is being used to change the country.

    Indeed. At the end of this we’re not going to have the same economy that we had before CV and we’re not going to have the same society.

    We’re going to have an economy much more heavily dominated by large corporations. Much more so than was already the case. And given that the large corporations will probably use their bailout money to finance mergers and acquisitions we’ll most likely have fewer but even bigger mega-corporations.

    We’re going to have a more hysterical more paranoid society even more subject to crazy panics, and even more inclined to support draconian social controls.

    And, especially on the political Right, we’re going to have more irrational hatred and more kooky conspiracy theories.

    Every change that I’ve seen since the middle 1990s has been FOR THE WORSE, so that’s what I expect.

    I agree wholeheartedly with that.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @dfordoom


    And, especially on the political Right, we’re going to have more irrational hatred and more kooky conspiracy theories.
     
    Irrational? It's happening right before our very eyes! (OK, I don't see it as one big plan - Socialists are too stupid for that. Still, they are very pleased to be able to shut down small business, then come back with $2,000,000,000,000 to $6,000,000,000,000 to dole out with strings attached.)

    We’re going to have a more hysterical more paranoid society even more subject to crazy panics, and even more inclined to support draconian social controls.
     
    Exactly, they will scream for Socialism to bail them out, as you can see all over. This infotainment panic-fest has been a Socialists' wet dream so far, or maybe the Socialists' 9/11.
  80. @Intelligent Dasein
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I believe I remember a comment like that, but unfortunately it wasn't by me. It harmonizes with everything I've been saying though, and there are intimations of the same idea scattered throughout my writings, but the particular one you want was written by someone else whom I do not recall at the moment. If I think of it, I'll be sure to let you know.

    Predictably, older and wealthier thought-workers are okay with shutting everything down, while younger people raising children and earning wages in the physical economy need everything to stay open. I don't see how ERs and ICUs are going to be any less overwhelmed by a breakdown in the social order (which is sure to happen if this goes on much longer) than they would be by an influx of wheezing geezers, so the rationale for social distancing measures grows thinner and thinner the longer they carry on. Prioritizing geezer lives at the expense of literally everything else is no way to run a country.

    My question is, is this the new normal? Every developed nation in the world now has an inverted demographic pyramid, so geezer votes and geezer money can muscle out the interests of younnger people, at least for awhile. At the same time, they in their aging decrepitude present a bigger and bigger target for every new infectious disease. Are we going to lock everything down each time there is a new strain of corona or flu making the rounds? We won't be able to manage that and eventually the younger generations won't stand for it. We've just monetized an amount equal to one-tenth of our entire annual output in an effort to save a few thousand mostly-dead-already septuas and octos. This clearly is not affordable on any accounting.

    I am about to take serious issue with those people here who think that those of us who are worried about the economy are simply obsessed with "muh GDP." That is shallow and facile and stupid. There is stuff that needs to get done and if it doesn't, many more people are going to suffer than ever this virus infected.

    Replies: @128, @Hail

    It is your generation that is responsible for the spread of globohomo and deserves to be democided and wiped off the map, if that. It is your generation that if truly worthless and little if any redeeming value. If this virus mutates and begins to take out 25 year olds and people like you and your type turnabout is always fair play. the fact that the country was still sane into the the mid 2000s was due to all the boomers and silents and their leftover political and social influence.

  81. @A123
    @Audacious Epigone


    Had Trump came in fighting for the America First agenda he campaigned on and refused to relent, he would’ve looked like the ultimate seer. The majority of Americans would be Mark Antony trying to force the crown on his head. Instead it’s dysfunction all the way down. Get used to it.
     
    Trump is President. Not King or Emperor. Unrealistic expectations that Trump would transcend the Constitution via supernatural divine powers was never going to be. The mentally weak, desperate for instant gratification, are now Bernie Bros.

    Am I happy that Trump prioritized trade over H1B/OPT visas? No.

    However, all rational Americans grasp that the situation he inherited from Barack Hussein was 100% dysfunction. Getting that down to 50% dysfunction is a vast improvement in 3 years.

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    I’d like to agree with you on Trump, A123, but I’ll present this with only one quick comment:

    Trump Says Without Cheap Foreign Labor “We’re Not Going to Have Farms”

    Quick comment: He can really be an imbecile sometimes, as this kind of blabbering is not a one-off. He didn’t need to prioritize anything here – he just needed to shut up.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Quick comment: Trump is often much smarter than he looks. He needed to prioritize to avoid antagonizing two large nations, China (trade) and India (visas), simultaneously.

    Or, do you desire the creation of a Sino-Indian Alliance?

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  82. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people...

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying "No Problem!" and "It's Just the Flu!!!" and now that they've found out they HAVE a problem and "It's NOT the Flu!" they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I've pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there's a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Replies: @UK, @22pp22, @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @A123, @obwandiyag, @Joe Stalin, @Audacious Epigone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean, @Thomm, @The Alarmist, @Thea, @Corvinus


    We can quibble over whose fault it might be if the actual US death count is significantly higher than 61k.

    • Replies: @Hail
    @The Alarmist

    Beware of the CoronaPanic-pushing media's Corona Deaths figures. They are almost always using "Deaths of persons positive for the virus," which is a much-inflated figure over actual marginal deaths (died "from" the virus). This is a core problem within the holy tenets of the CoronaReligion, or, as I prefer to think of it, the CoronaHoax.

    I would revise your statement to,


    We can quibble over whose fault it might be if the observed US total deaths in 2020 are much, much higher than usual.
     
    The response by the hysterical media and most governments is a hardline version of a response to a 1918-style pandemic, for what has turned out to be a "particularly bad flu season"-level event.

    This is no longer speculative. All the best data out of Europe is saying it, as are most independent experts. Through late March, the Italian total death rate has matched its 2017 flu season peak. This hysterical, Bubonic Plague-like reaction sure to harm many, many lives for years to come is so wrong as to boggle the mind.

  83. @Achmed E. Newman
    @A123

    I'd like to agree with you on Trump, A123, but I'll present this with only one quick comment:

    Trump Says Without Cheap Foreign Labor "We're Not Going to Have Farms"

    Quick comment: He can really be an imbecile sometimes, as this kind of blabbering is not a one-off. He didn't need to prioritize anything here - he just needed to shut up.

    Replies: @A123

    Quick comment: Trump is often much smarter than he looks. He needed to prioritize to avoid antagonizing two large nations, China (trade) and India (visas), simultaneously.

    Or, do you desire the creation of a Sino-Indian Alliance?

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @A123

    Actually, his actions on tariffs have been one thing President Trump has pleased me with, though, as usual, he goes back & forth. Visas for foreigner to come and work as indentured servants for cheap are an abomination, unless you simply don't give a damn about Americans who want to work for a living. (A123, I'd thought you were very far from a Socialist - if there are no jobs for Americans, the pressure for UBI and other handouts will be intense. It'll be total dependence on Big-Gov at that point.)

    I am not at all worried about some Sino-.Indian alliance, and if Trump is, he's more of an idiot than I'd thought. Those 2 crowds don't get along one bit, but if they do, why is that our business? How about Americans do things for Americans now, meaning closing the borders, setting up tariffs to bring back American manufacturing and staying out of the world's business militarily. Let's go back to: the business of America is business.

    Replies: @A123

  84. @A123
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Quick comment: Trump is often much smarter than he looks. He needed to prioritize to avoid antagonizing two large nations, China (trade) and India (visas), simultaneously.

    Or, do you desire the creation of a Sino-Indian Alliance?

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Actually, his actions on tariffs have been one thing President Trump has pleased me with, though, as usual, he goes back & forth. Visas for foreigner to come and work as indentured servants for cheap are an abomination, unless you simply don’t give a damn about Americans who want to work for a living. (A123, I’d thought you were very far from a Socialist – if there are no jobs for Americans, the pressure for UBI and other handouts will be intense. It’ll be total dependence on Big-Gov at that point.)

    I am not at all worried about some Sino-.Indian alliance, and if Trump is, he’s more of an idiot than I’d thought. Those 2 crowds don’t get along one bit, but if they do, why is that our business? How about Americans do things for Americans now, meaning closing the borders, setting up tariffs to bring back American manufacturing and staying out of the world’s business militarily. Let’s go back to: the business of America is business.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Achmed E. Newman

    The U.S. and the Saudis don't really get along. That cooperation is based on the common threat from Iran. China and India don't really get along. However, if the U.S. goes out of its way to become a common threat......

    Further, there are Globalist Republicans in the Senate. Sad, but true. To keep confirmations running, he has to make concessions that are not his first choice. If Trump had tried absolutism, much less progress would have been made.

    If visas could be handled in total isolation from all other issues, it would be easy to fix the abuses. Unfortunately, the world does not exist as a series of issues that are 100% isolated from each other.

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  85. @dfordoom
    @Achmed E. Newman


    I am just so sick of hearing about this Kung Flu, not because I don’t want advice that I don’t like, but because it is being used to change the country.
     
    Indeed. At the end of this we're not going to have the same economy that we had before CV and we're not going to have the same society.

    We're going to have an economy much more heavily dominated by large corporations. Much more so than was already the case. And given that the large corporations will probably use their bailout money to finance mergers and acquisitions we'll most likely have fewer but even bigger mega-corporations.

    We're going to have a more hysterical more paranoid society even more subject to crazy panics, and even more inclined to support draconian social controls.

    And, especially on the political Right, we're going to have more irrational hatred and more kooky conspiracy theories.

    Every change that I’ve seen since the middle 1990s has been FOR THE WORSE, so that’s what I expect.
     
    I agree wholeheartedly with that.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    And, especially on the political Right, we’re going to have more irrational hatred and more kooky conspiracy theories.

    Irrational? It’s happening right before our very eyes! (OK, I don’t see it as one big plan – Socialists are too stupid for that. Still, they are very pleased to be able to shut down small business, then come back with $2,000,000,000,000 to $6,000,000,000,000 to dole out with strings attached.)

    We’re going to have a more hysterical more paranoid society even more subject to crazy panics, and even more inclined to support draconian social controls.

    Exactly, they will scream for Socialism to bail them out, as you can see all over. This infotainment panic-fest has been a Socialists’ wet dream so far, or maybe the Socialists’ 9/11.

  86. @Intelligent Dasein
    Here is the latest graph, current as of 04/01/2020

    https://i1.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/corona-deaths-20200401.png?w=717&ssl=1

    Here are the essential takeaways. Every country, South Korea excepted, is following the same trajectory regardless of which suite of possible social distancing measures is adopted. Also, every country is flattening considerably once they rise above the 0.1% mortality rate.

    In other words, social distancing is having no effect other than creating social and economic chaos. Other than tried and true prophylactic measures such as hand-washing and mask-wearing, there is nothing anybody can do to stop the spread of the virus, but the good news is it really isn't necessary to bother trying. The total death rate will level off at something not significantly higher than 0.1% of the worst affected populations (the 0.3% figure bandied about looks to be a good guess at the upper bound), with virtually all of those deaths occuring among the very old and/or very sick.

    It's three flu seasons rolled in to one, almost exactly. Not insignificant, but very far from being the end of the world. But as I mentioned in my post above, the virus itself is an afterthought at this point. The changing world going forward is now the subject of primary concern. It was no coincidence that this overblown response, in itself a permanent possibility of our state apparatus, happened to occur just now. For some reason, a subtle mood shift took place all over the world at about the same moment, the flock changed direction, and globalism as we knew it was given up with a shrug. The fallout from this event will be with us for a long, long time. The responsible ones among us must start to look at it and analyze it.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Mark G., @Dumbo, @Twinkie, @Ron Unz

    The total death rate will level off at something not significantly higher than 0.1% of the worst affected populations (the 0.3% figure bandied about looks to be a good guess at the upper bound)

    Well, I’m the wild-eyed lunatic warning that we might have as many as a million or more deaths by early summer.

    Meanwhile, you’re the zealous debunker, calling this a “nothingburger” and arguing that a 0.3% death rate “looks to be a good guess at the upper bound.”

    And 0.3% of America’s 330M population is…a million deaths!

    It’s nice to see that the ongoing facts are beginning to cause both sides on this debate to converge to roughly similar positions…

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
    @Ron Unz

    Everybody's predictions are just vague enough so no matter what the outcome and when you will all be arguing you were right and providing links to where "See, I said this in April." Spare me.

    What does "by early summer mean"? Put a date on it and a number instead of "as many as a million."

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong

    , @Intelligent Dasein
    @Ron Unz

    Mr. Unz, I was referring to 0.3% of the people who test positive, not 0.3% of the gross population.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @mh505

  87. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Ron Unz


    Everyone knows that America’s ruling elites are criminal, crazy, and also extremely incompetent.
     
    Agreed, but would they -- and those below them who would have had to carry out the details -- be so stupid as to ignore what I believe is the wisdom arrived at early in history by military men, i.e. that bio-attacks are worse than useless because blowback from the weapons can occur, literally on a battlefield if the winds change, or figuratively when potentially-infected, asymptomatic-yet-contagious citizens from your target country travel daily to countries all over the world, including yours?

    I am not taking sides in this debate, but I do wonder if even our leaders would piss into the wind like that.

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @Ron Unz

    Agreed, but would they — and those below them who would have had to carry out the details — be so stupid as to ignore what I believe is the wisdom arrived at early in history by military men, i.e. that bio-attacks are worse than useless because blowback from the weapons can occur, literally on a battlefield if the winds change, or figuratively when potentially-infected, asymptomatic-yet-contagious citizens from your target country travel daily to countries all over the world, including yours?

    Well sure, it would have been *astonishingly* stupid and reckless. But if (as seems reasonably likely), America will suffer a devastated economy and maybe a million or more deaths because the leadership totally ignored the possibility of the Coronavirus spreading here…well, they’ve proven themselves to be astonishingly stupid and reckless.

    Also don’t forget, after SARS broke out in East Asia in the early-2000s, America took little action, yet it never spread here. So Deep State Neocons could have (foolishly) believed that a bioweapon attack on China (and Iran) would also not produce any substantial US blowback.

    • Replies: @Antiwar7
    @Ron Unz

    Also, the neocons in charge are not exactly "military men".

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @Ron Unz

    How do the neocons expect to fund the US military if China is economically crippled? Without China's productive capacity, consumer prices go up and treasury demand goes down.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  88. @Audacious Epigone
    @Ron Unz

    The schizophrenic, disjointed, contradictory US government response and China's potential culpability need not be mutually exclusive. The former is beyond dispute. I think the latter is still an open question, though.

    China could have been more forthcoming in December, January, and February. And if current reporting is to be believed, China should now be far more forthcoming about what the secret has been to effectively wipe the virus out within its borders than it has been.

    In case it was not obvious, the joke about being a paid shill had the CCP in mind. Despite my no doubt offering takes now and again Ron finds incorrect or irrelevant, he has never so much as hinted towards any editorial control over anything on this blog. There is no greater champion of honest inquiry and free expression than Ron Unz.

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @Tor597

    China could have been more forthcoming in December, January, and February. And if current reporting is to be believed, China should now be far more forthcoming about what the secret has been to effectively wipe the virus out within its borders than it has been.

    I really don’t know what you mean by this. China’s “secret” in effectively wiping out the virus was to shut down its entire economy and lock down 700 million Chinese for a couple of months or so. It was on the front page of all the newspapers. They also did a huge amount of testing and contact-tracing.

    Meanwhile, South Korea, Singapore, etc. took early steps to head off an epidemic using various public measures.

    The bottom line is that we have a totally incompetent national government that said “No Problem!” for a couple of months and did almost nothing, so that vast numbers of Americans will now die.

    Indeed, I think some of the pro-Trump shills like Limbaugh may *still* be claiming “It’s Just the Flu!!!” and no big deal.

    Why would China need to give us the “mysterious secret” of how to combat an ordinary flu epidemic?

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Ron Unz

    What other governments do is beside the point. In the end, the actions of the US government are what is going to impact the fate of your average US voter, far beyond any other factor.

    >Indeed, I think some of the pro-Trump shills like Limbaugh may *still* claiming “It’s Just the Flu!!!” and no big deal.

    The irony here is that the pandemic is gonna hit Trump's voting base like a Mack truck. How do you like Limbaugh's odds against the virus? I find it ironic that guys like Carlson who are taking this seriously are (relatively) less at risk of becoming a fatality, health-wise, near as I can tell.

    Replies: @Talha, @Ron Unz

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @Ron Unz

    They denied it. Their man at the World Health Organization said it wasn't a pandemic. They continued to allow international flights in and out of China--this all after the Wuhan lock down. These do not seem like the actions of a friend or ally (the other potential survey answers).

    At present, neither Japan or Sweden have taken measures anything close to as drastic as China did. Sweden in particular doesn't seem to have done much of anything besides close colleges and recommend against large public gatherings. This paragraph may not age well but it's not obviously incorrect in my view.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @nebulafox

  89. @Achmed E. Newman
    @A123

    Actually, his actions on tariffs have been one thing President Trump has pleased me with, though, as usual, he goes back & forth. Visas for foreigner to come and work as indentured servants for cheap are an abomination, unless you simply don't give a damn about Americans who want to work for a living. (A123, I'd thought you were very far from a Socialist - if there are no jobs for Americans, the pressure for UBI and other handouts will be intense. It'll be total dependence on Big-Gov at that point.)

    I am not at all worried about some Sino-.Indian alliance, and if Trump is, he's more of an idiot than I'd thought. Those 2 crowds don't get along one bit, but if they do, why is that our business? How about Americans do things for Americans now, meaning closing the borders, setting up tariffs to bring back American manufacturing and staying out of the world's business militarily. Let's go back to: the business of America is business.

    Replies: @A123

    The U.S. and the Saudis don’t really get along. That cooperation is based on the common threat from Iran. China and India don’t really get along. However, if the U.S. goes out of its way to become a common threat……

    Further, there are Globalist Republicans in the Senate. Sad, but true. To keep confirmations running, he has to make concessions that are not his first choice. If Trump had tried absolutism, much less progress would have been made.

    If visas could be handled in total isolation from all other issues, it would be easy to fix the abuses. Unfortunately, the world does not exist as a series of issues that are 100% isolated from each other.

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @A123

    Let me back up a bit, back to the point of the Trump presidency, at least for me. He only got ANYWHERE because he talked about the ills of illegal immigration way back in the summer of '15 when no other high-level politicians did. I never saw him as a man of principles of any sort, but he does seem to like Americans, contrary to the Hildabeast, and most of the rest of them. I believe he still does, in fact.

    That doesn't change the fact that I've found out he's done many stupid things that cannot be blamed on "being a good politician" or "judges would have blocked it". He is also a spiteful man, even when it works to ruin his chance of getting things done.

    I hope you will take the 5 minutes and read another VDare article, A123. We mostly agree on stuff within this blog, so that's why I think I have a chance of getting you to see this.

    Trump is ACTIVELY supporting Jeff Session's opponent for R-primary for Senator from Alabama, because he is buttsore about the guy recusing himself way back in that Russia thing*. Now, whether you agree with the former Attorney General's playing by the Marquise of Queensbury's rules against the ruthless and lawless other side is another question. However, Mr. Sessions always supported Donald Trump due to Mr. Session's patriotic stance on immigration (a hopeful guy about Trump like me). He was never disloyal to Trump.

    Now, Trump's firing him is Trump's call, and I was not really against that at the time (oh, and the name's - "Sleepy Jeff" - I couldn't care less). However when the guy is running for Senate again with an A+ rating as an immigration patriot against some unpatriotic asshole, well you don't need to support the guy that's not on your side on immigration. How is that smart in any way?! It's nothing but 14 y/o schoolgirl antics.

    Trump World Comes After Sessions, But Immigrant Patriot Message Still A Winner In Alabama




    .

    * I do my best not to follow any of that crap, but I do know that much.

    Replies: @A123, @Audacious Epigone

  90. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people...

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying "No Problem!" and "It's Just the Flu!!!" and now that they've found out they HAVE a problem and "It's NOT the Flu!" they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I've pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there's a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Replies: @UK, @22pp22, @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @A123, @obwandiyag, @Joe Stalin, @Audacious Epigone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean, @Thomm, @The Alarmist, @Thea, @Corvinus

    The Chinese government knew selling live wild animals in cramped, inhumane conditions bred several deadly scourges and allowed them to continue to sell their wares. Xi carries a lot of the blame.

  91. This is really bad news and mirrors the elevation of sodomites to sacred victim-gods after they spread AIDS far and wide by refusing to abstain from risky behavior or help with contact tracing. The Chinese will be elevated on the totem pole of the oppressed.

    White Americans trying to protect their families will be set up as the bad guys …again. Expect a surge of Hollywood output the shoves a Chinese actor in a savior role against evil white Christians.

  92. @Intelligent Dasein

    Sentiments went virtually unchanged.
     
    That word, sentiments, probably explains why. It probably isn't very useful to ask ordinary people how they might feel about China. If I consult my gut, I don't have any particularly bad feelings about China or the Chinese people either. The subject is too large, vague, and far away. But even the most rudimentary rational analysis tells you that China should not be trusted. We've let China walk in and out of our country with every sort of technology and industrial secret they wanted. They've taken all our manufacturing and millions of jobs, and now we can't even supply ourselves with basic necessities without their help. China has done a number on us, and we have only ourselves to blame. They're crafty and wily, and we're lazy and stupid. I doubt that hating China would lead to anything productive, but we've got to end this dysfunctional relationship.

    Apropos of that subject, my suspicion is that the corona lockdown has progressed too far to be reversed now. The virus itself is no worse than having three or four bad flu seasons compressed into one year (which, pace the Twinkster, still counts as a nothingburger in my book), but the cultural and economic dislocations are not going to be reset to the status quo ante. We're on a path now that must be trodden to the end. The whole globalist system and its many political, social, and economic arrangements is coming apart. "It's a long road with no turning, pally," as Shelly Levene said.

    The metaphor here is not "This is our World War Two," which historically illiterate Boomer cosplay and manifest nonsense. This is, however, our World War One. This is the time when our sclerotic elites, comfortable for way too long and betraying a stunning lack of creativity and foresight, dragged the world into chaos and destruction over a minor incident, and fielded a system interlocking powers and tensions that could accomplish nothing but its own self-destruction at enormous cost.

    Replies: @obwandiyag, @obwandiyag, @YetAnotherAnon, @Twinkie, @LoutishAngloQuebecker, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Audacious Epigone, @Thea

    Boomers were actually drafted by the millions to fight in the unforgiving jungles or SEAsia. As a gen x my generation and later ones have had no equivalent sacrifice.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  93. Ron Unz is killing it in this thread. you love to see it!

    p.s. Teddy K (PBUH) was right about his entire diagnosis of the system, hth

  94. @Ron Unz
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Agreed, but would they — and those below them who would have had to carry out the details — be so stupid as to ignore what I believe is the wisdom arrived at early in history by military men, i.e. that bio-attacks are worse than useless because blowback from the weapons can occur, literally on a battlefield if the winds change, or figuratively when potentially-infected, asymptomatic-yet-contagious citizens from your target country travel daily to countries all over the world, including yours?
     
    Well sure, it would have been *astonishingly* stupid and reckless. But if (as seems reasonably likely), America will suffer a devastated economy and maybe a million or more deaths because the leadership totally ignored the possibility of the Coronavirus spreading here...well, they've proven themselves to be astonishingly stupid and reckless.

    Also don't forget, after SARS broke out in East Asia in the early-2000s, America took little action, yet it never spread here. So Deep State Neocons could have (foolishly) believed that a bioweapon attack on China (and Iran) would also not produce any substantial US blowback.

    Replies: @Antiwar7, @Audacious Epigone

    Also, the neocons in charge are not exactly “military men”.

  95. • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @nebulafox

    You don't need asterisks, NF, this ain't the new Zerohedge.... just saying...

    I'd agree even more without 'em. ;-}

  96. @Ron Unz
    @Audacious Epigone


    China could have been more forthcoming in December, January, and February. And if current reporting is to be believed, China should now be far more forthcoming about what the secret has been to effectively wipe the virus out within its borders than it has been.
     
    I really don't know what you mean by this. China's "secret" in effectively wiping out the virus was to shut down its entire economy and lock down 700 million Chinese for a couple of months or so. It was on the front page of all the newspapers. They also did a huge amount of testing and contact-tracing.

    Meanwhile, South Korea, Singapore, etc. took early steps to head off an epidemic using various public measures.

    The bottom line is that we have a totally incompetent national government that said "No Problem!" for a couple of months and did almost nothing, so that vast numbers of Americans will now die.

    Indeed, I think some of the pro-Trump shills like Limbaugh may *still* be claiming "It's Just the Flu!!!" and no big deal.

    Why would China need to give us the "mysterious secret" of how to combat an ordinary flu epidemic?

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Audacious Epigone

    What other governments do is beside the point. In the end, the actions of the US government are what is going to impact the fate of your average US voter, far beyond any other factor.

    >Indeed, I think some of the pro-Trump shills like Limbaugh may *still* claiming “It’s Just the Flu!!!” and no big deal.

    The irony here is that the pandemic is gonna hit Trump’s voting base like a Mack truck. How do you like Limbaugh’s odds against the virus? I find it ironic that guys like Carlson who are taking this seriously are (relatively) less at risk of becoming a fatality, health-wise, near as I can tell.

    • Replies: @Talha
    @nebulafox


    The irony here is that the pandemic is gonna hit Trump’s voting base like a Mack truck.
     
    Why do you say that?

    I do know one thing; one of my sister in laws is a dairy vet and talks to a lot of farmers. She works basically in “Trump country”. She is mostly a liberal (though having two Muslim sisters has tempered some of her views), so she avoids a lot of political talking with her clients, but she told us that a LOT of them basically believe this is just a conspiracy to take control by the liberals. She just nods her head politely and goes about her work.

    Is that why you think it’s going to hit them hard, because they are not taking it seriously or taking any precautions? One thing though, those particular guys tend not to live in high density areas, so...

    Peace.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @Ron Unz
    @nebulafox

    Well, here's a comment I left last week on a different thread:


    Well, if the estimates—including those of Boris Johnson—are correct 60-70% of Americans will be infected, especially in the New York area where the epidemic is raging uncontrolled.

    I realize that Trump is a notorious germophobe, but given how contagious it is and how many people he meets, isn’t he likely to get infected? He’s probably too proud to start wearing a mask against “Just the Flu!!”

    If/when he gets infected, given his age and weight problems, isn’t he in a pretty high risk group?

    And don’t Biden, Bloomberg, and Sanders pretty much fall into the same category?

    I wonder if the endgame of America’s Coronavirus debate will be Trump Tweeting out insults while hooked up to a respirator, with Sanders, Bloomberg, and Biden lying next to him.

    Doesn’t this really remind you of the old Politburo in the last years of the USSR?
     
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/pm-boris-johnson-infected/#comment-3798999

    Replies: @A123, @nebulafox

  97. @nebulafox
    @Ron Unz

    What other governments do is beside the point. In the end, the actions of the US government are what is going to impact the fate of your average US voter, far beyond any other factor.

    >Indeed, I think some of the pro-Trump shills like Limbaugh may *still* claiming “It’s Just the Flu!!!” and no big deal.

    The irony here is that the pandemic is gonna hit Trump's voting base like a Mack truck. How do you like Limbaugh's odds against the virus? I find it ironic that guys like Carlson who are taking this seriously are (relatively) less at risk of becoming a fatality, health-wise, near as I can tell.

    Replies: @Talha, @Ron Unz

    The irony here is that the pandemic is gonna hit Trump’s voting base like a Mack truck.

    Why do you say that?

    I do know one thing; one of my sister in laws is a dairy vet and talks to a lot of farmers. She works basically in “Trump country”. She is mostly a liberal (though having two Muslim sisters has tempered some of her views), so she avoids a lot of political talking with her clients, but she told us that a LOT of them basically believe this is just a conspiracy to take control by the liberals. She just nods her head politely and goes about her work.

    Is that why you think it’s going to hit them hard, because they are not taking it seriously or taking any precautions? One thing though, those particular guys tend not to live in high density areas, so…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Talha


    Is that why you think it’s going to hit them hard, because they are not taking it seriously or taking any precautions? One thing though, those particular guys tend not to live in high density areas, so…
     
    Rural areas where Trump voters reside have much lower hospital beds or ICU per capita than urban and suburban areas. Although cities and suburbs get hit first, when it arrives in the rural areas, the healthcare systems in the latter are more likely to be overwhelmed much more quickly. Also, in rural areas the population is older and sicker.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

  98. @nebulafox
    OT:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/03/feminism-womens-rights-coronavirus-covid19/608302/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/opinion/coronavirus-men-women.html

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/the-coronavirus-fallout-may-be-worse-for-women-than-men-heres-why/

    "So, don't be lazy and die, geek, that's super inconvenient for us!"

    **** you.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    You don’t need asterisks, NF, this ain’t the new Zerohedge…. just saying…

    I’d agree even more without ’em. ;-}

  99. @nebulafox
    @Ron Unz

    What other governments do is beside the point. In the end, the actions of the US government are what is going to impact the fate of your average US voter, far beyond any other factor.

    >Indeed, I think some of the pro-Trump shills like Limbaugh may *still* claiming “It’s Just the Flu!!!” and no big deal.

    The irony here is that the pandemic is gonna hit Trump's voting base like a Mack truck. How do you like Limbaugh's odds against the virus? I find it ironic that guys like Carlson who are taking this seriously are (relatively) less at risk of becoming a fatality, health-wise, near as I can tell.

    Replies: @Talha, @Ron Unz

    Well, here’s a comment I left last week on a different thread:

    Well, if the estimates—including those of Boris Johnson—are correct 60-70% of Americans will be infected, especially in the New York area where the epidemic is raging uncontrolled.

    I realize that Trump is a notorious germophobe, but given how contagious it is and how many people he meets, isn’t he likely to get infected? He’s probably too proud to start wearing a mask against “Just the Flu!!”

    If/when he gets infected, given his age and weight problems, isn’t he in a pretty high risk group?

    And don’t Biden, Bloomberg, and Sanders pretty much fall into the same category?

    I wonder if the endgame of America’s Coronavirus debate will be Trump Tweeting out insults while hooked up to a respirator, with Sanders, Bloomberg, and Biden lying next to him.

    Doesn’t this really remind you of the old Politburo in the last years of the USSR?

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/pm-boris-johnson-infected/#comment-3798999

    • Replies: @A123
    @Ron Unz


    I wonder if the endgame of America’s Coronavirus debate will be Trump Tweeting out insults while hooked up to a respirator, with Sanders, Bloomberg, and Biden lying next to him.

    Doesn’t this really remind you of the old Politburo in the last years of the USSR?

     

    It looks like the CQ/AZ/ZN combo treatment works. Even if it is not 100% cure, it slows WUHAN-19 enough to head off the need for hospital admission and a respirator. All of these privileged individuals would receive the combo treatment early and never wind up in danger.

    Biden's rambling dementia calls back some of the images of the last days of the Politburo, but that would be true even without WUHAN-19. Given the rigors of campaigning, even for a safe seat, U.S. elected leadership cannot physically decay to the extent seen in the USSR.

    PEACE 😷

    , @nebulafox
    @Ron Unz

    >Doesn’t this really remind you of the old Politburo in the last years of the USSR?

    Pretty much. I don't think the fact that we're now ruled by a gerontocracy is behind all our problems, but it is definitely exacerbating them, not least because it helps justify the "apres moi, le deluge" attitude that seems to be normative in the favored policies of US elites.

  100. @Ron Unz
    @nebulafox

    Well, here's a comment I left last week on a different thread:


    Well, if the estimates—including those of Boris Johnson—are correct 60-70% of Americans will be infected, especially in the New York area where the epidemic is raging uncontrolled.

    I realize that Trump is a notorious germophobe, but given how contagious it is and how many people he meets, isn’t he likely to get infected? He’s probably too proud to start wearing a mask against “Just the Flu!!”

    If/when he gets infected, given his age and weight problems, isn’t he in a pretty high risk group?

    And don’t Biden, Bloomberg, and Sanders pretty much fall into the same category?

    I wonder if the endgame of America’s Coronavirus debate will be Trump Tweeting out insults while hooked up to a respirator, with Sanders, Bloomberg, and Biden lying next to him.

    Doesn’t this really remind you of the old Politburo in the last years of the USSR?
     
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/pm-boris-johnson-infected/#comment-3798999

    Replies: @A123, @nebulafox

    I wonder if the endgame of America’s Coronavirus debate will be Trump Tweeting out insults while hooked up to a respirator, with Sanders, Bloomberg, and Biden lying next to him.

    Doesn’t this really remind you of the old Politburo in the last years of the USSR?

    It looks like the CQ/AZ/ZN combo treatment works. Even if it is not 100% cure, it slows WUHAN-19 enough to head off the need for hospital admission and a respirator. All of these privileged individuals would receive the combo treatment early and never wind up in danger.

    Biden’s rambling dementia calls back some of the images of the last days of the Politburo, but that would be true even without WUHAN-19. Given the rigors of campaigning, even for a safe seat, U.S. elected leadership cannot physically decay to the extent seen in the USSR.

    PEACE 😷

  101. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Ron Unz


    Everyone knows that America’s ruling elites are criminal, crazy, and also extremely incompetent.
     
    Agreed, but would they -- and those below them who would have had to carry out the details -- be so stupid as to ignore what I believe is the wisdom arrived at early in history by military men, i.e. that bio-attacks are worse than useless because blowback from the weapons can occur, literally on a battlefield if the winds change, or figuratively when potentially-infected, asymptomatic-yet-contagious citizens from your target country travel daily to countries all over the world, including yours?

    I am not taking sides in this debate, but I do wonder if even our leaders would piss into the wind like that.

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @Ron Unz

    Actually, I might as well expand a little on the fairly strong circumstantial evidence that Coronavirus was an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) launched by the Deep State Neocons.

    China was hit at the worst possible time, and if not for its astonishing effort in quickly locking down 700 million Chinese, it would have suffered exactly the sort of devastation that America is now experiencing, but in our case brought about entirely by our totally incompetent national government.

    But consider Iran. The only political elites anywhere in the world who have so far died from the Coronavirus are the Iranian ones, who began to fall ill before the outbreak in Italy was even getting much attention noticeable. Various Neocons were even sending out Tweets bragging about all the high-ranking Iranians who were dying of the Coronavirus.

    When you look at the timing of their deaths, they were probably infected just three or four weeks after America had assassinated Iran’s top military leader. Talk about *astonishing* coincidences.

    Suppose the Gambino and Columbo crime families in NYC are in a bloody turf war, and a Gambino capo is found shot to death. Is there any proof who did it? No, but most people probably have a pretty good guess…

    • Replies: @UK
    @Ron Unz

    You mean someone in the Gambino gerontocracy dies of a flu-like virus?

    Do you really believe the bizarre nonsense you write?

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz

    Ron, let me get this straight. The Neocons (and I doubt I like them any more than you do) were expert enough to specifically infect these high-up politicians in Iran, and let the Kung Flu loose in Wuhan China during the Spring Festival, but did not have enough brains to think about the infection coming to the US via the 100's of thousands of Chinese people who travel back and forth during this period. Is that it? Why not infect some of the top CCP officials in Peking, instead of the general population in the city of Wuhan? Too difficult?

    Yes, these Neocons probably would want to see excuses for war all over the place (on the mistaken impression that the US military is overwhelming as if this was 1990 AND we were not way TF beyond broke). I get that they possibly don't care about the general American people. Would the Neocon types in America somehow have thought they were immune to, not just the virus, but ANY of the economic fallout that would result? I mean, if they were smart enough to do this deed, wouldn't they foresee some of that?

    Now, there have got to be brainy, powerful (on the level of Soros) Deep State types that think up this kind of stuff. This sure seems like a poor implementation. Maybe that's your point, that they are smart, evil, but often stupid?

    I tend to lean toward the obvious causes that (unless you've got something here) have not been proven impossible. Transfer from wild animals to humans in the places where the Chinese eat any and every thing. (Note that this is more prevalent in the south of China - yes, I know Wuhan is not way south.) What about that one of just a handful of virus study labs that is in Wuhan, and the serious lack of quality control in China? Those 2 possibilities just seem very much more likely to me.

    , @A123
    @Ron Unz

    There still is no evidence that this is anything other than natural occurrence.
    _____

    Without physical evidence, it is pretty easy to pour "circumstances and timing" into a vessel formed of "existing beliefs".

    For, example I believe that Ayatollah Khameni is a sociopath who threatens the region and the world.

    Let us combine that with your information:


    But consider Iran. The only political elites anywhere in the world who have so far died from the Coronavirus are the Iranian ones, who began to fall ill before the outbreak in Italy was even getting much attention noticeable.
     
    On a circumstantial basis this points at *astonishing* coincidences.

    A failing regime like sociopath Khameni's would desperately want bioweapons. Then a deliberate test or accidental bioweapon release occurs Iran, and it goes badly.

    Coincidentally, soon afterwards, the bioweapon winds up loose at the known Wuhan Bioweapon lab. Almost as if a Chinese weapons specialist was exposed during the Iranian release and brought it home.

    Evidence that China and Iran are trading in WMD's?

    On circumstantial grounds the timing is highly suggestive. And, China's openly illegal purchase and transport (ghost ships) of Iranian oil places them well outside international norms.
    _____

    Without physical evidence, there is enough circumstance in a situation this complex for anybody to blame anybody.

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

  102. Hail says: • Website
    @Intelligent Dasein
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I believe I remember a comment like that, but unfortunately it wasn't by me. It harmonizes with everything I've been saying though, and there are intimations of the same idea scattered throughout my writings, but the particular one you want was written by someone else whom I do not recall at the moment. If I think of it, I'll be sure to let you know.

    Predictably, older and wealthier thought-workers are okay with shutting everything down, while younger people raising children and earning wages in the physical economy need everything to stay open. I don't see how ERs and ICUs are going to be any less overwhelmed by a breakdown in the social order (which is sure to happen if this goes on much longer) than they would be by an influx of wheezing geezers, so the rationale for social distancing measures grows thinner and thinner the longer they carry on. Prioritizing geezer lives at the expense of literally everything else is no way to run a country.

    My question is, is this the new normal? Every developed nation in the world now has an inverted demographic pyramid, so geezer votes and geezer money can muscle out the interests of younnger people, at least for awhile. At the same time, they in their aging decrepitude present a bigger and bigger target for every new infectious disease. Are we going to lock everything down each time there is a new strain of corona or flu making the rounds? We won't be able to manage that and eventually the younger generations won't stand for it. We've just monetized an amount equal to one-tenth of our entire annual output in an effort to save a few thousand mostly-dead-already septuas and octos. This clearly is not affordable on any accounting.

    I am about to take serious issue with those people here who think that those of us who are worried about the economy are simply obsessed with "muh GDP." That is shallow and facile and stupid. There is stuff that needs to get done and if it doesn't, many more people are going to suffer than ever this virus infected.

    Replies: @128, @Hail

    Every developed nation in the world now has an inverted demographic pyramid, so geezer votes and geezer money can muscle out the interests of younnger people, at least for awhile. At the same time, they in their aging decrepitude present a bigger and bigger target for every new infectious disease. Are we going to lock everything down each time there is a new strain of corona or flu making the rounds?

    One practical measure would be to restrict the right vote to a core-life age bracket. Say, persons age 25 to 75. Or some other range. I am not committed exactly to that one. The point is put in a ‘voting-rights retirement’ mechanism. And also restrict political office-holding by age, say to persons age 30 to 80.

    On your 75th birthday, your right to vote is gracefully retired and we hold a party honoring you and you life’s work. You can still follow politics and comment on it, but just as one retires from one’s career and lives a graceful retirement, it makes sense to have the same mechanism for voting.

    • Troll: utu
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Hail


    On your 75th birthday, your right to vote is gracefully retired
     
    Great idea. Why not strip old people of all their legal rights as well while you're at it?

    Replies: @Talha

  103. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Intelligent Dasein

    OK, that was getting long, so here's my main point, or really a question:

    This divide is not along the usual political lines, I don't think. My family is a good example of that. I'm not talking about the doling out of the MegaBucks by the Feral Gov., as the solution to the problem governments have caused. That is indeed political along the usual dividing lines.

    Where are we getting our widely-differing perspectives from? In my opinion, it's a matter of time spent in from of the idiot plate, but, especially with the young people who don't so much, but spent 10-25% of their waking hours looking at their little screens, the ease of keeping up with the numbers involved in this "horror" have them sucked in.*

    This severe flu variant is the best thing that happened to the Lyin' Press and the whole infotainment-industrial-complex since OJ! This time it's truly 24/7 for anyone who is addicted to news. Those, like myself, who think back to the previous 3 or 4 new virus strains out of E. Asia, and the normality of life with excess death rates of the same order-of-magnitude, and don't spend so much time with the infotainment, have a much different attitude.

    I am just so sick of hearing about this Kung Flu, not because I don't want advice that I don't like, but because it is being used to change the country. Every change that I've seen since the middle 1990s has been FOR THE WORSE, so that's what I expect. If people calmed the hell down, and got their eyes, ears, and minds off this for good while, I think they would see things differently.

    I'd like to read other commenters' including our host A.E.'s of course, opinions regarding this question. Why are we divided on the way to handle the Kung Flu?

    Right now, it's beautiful outside. We're going to the park (one kid's Mom has the same attitude as me, but that guy can't come today). We're going to throw the frisbee. We'll going hiking again sometime soon. Kids (least at my house) are learning in 3 hours what takes a day or two in school. Recess has been running from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours. Fresh air and vitamin D, bitchez!


    .

    * Look at Steve Sailer, an erudite guy with lots of common sense. If this were TEOTWAWKI due to this disease, I could see blogging 80% of posts about it. It's not! I could see doing a lot more blogging about the financial/economic fallout and what lies ahead due to this panic-fest, such as our Mr. Epigone here has done a few times already.

    Replies: @Talha, @Intelligent Dasein, @dfordoom, @Adam Smith, @Adam Smith

    Fresh air and vitamin D, bitchez!

  104. Hail says: • Website
    @The Alarmist
    @Ron Unz

    https://www.cdc.gov/flu/images/about/burden/Influenza-Chart-Infographic-high-res.jpg

    We can quibble over whose fault it might be if the actual US death count is significantly higher than 61k.

    Replies: @Hail

    Beware of the CoronaPanic-pushing media’s Corona Deaths figures. They are almost always using “Deaths of persons positive for the virus,” which is a much-inflated figure over actual marginal deaths (died “from” the virus). This is a core problem within the holy tenets of the CoronaReligion, or, as I prefer to think of it, the CoronaHoax.

    I would revise your statement to,

    We can quibble over whose fault it might be if the observed US total deaths in 2020 are much, much higher than usual.

    The response by the hysterical media and most governments is a hardline version of a response to a 1918-style pandemic, for what has turned out to be a “particularly bad flu season”-level event.

    This is no longer speculative. All the best data out of Europe is saying it, as are most independent experts. Through late March, the Italian total death rate has matched its 2017 flu season peak. This hysterical, Bubonic Plague-like reaction sure to harm many, many lives for years to come is so wrong as to boggle the mind.

  105. @Ron Unz
    @Intelligent Dasein


    The total death rate will level off at something not significantly higher than 0.1% of the worst affected populations (the 0.3% figure bandied about looks to be a good guess at the upper bound)
     
    Well, I'm the wild-eyed lunatic warning that we might have as many as a million or more deaths by early summer.

    Meanwhile, you're the zealous debunker, calling this a "nothingburger" and arguing that a 0.3% death rate "looks to be a good guess at the upper bound."

    And 0.3% of America's 330M population is...a million deaths!

    It's nice to see that the ongoing facts are beginning to cause both sides on this debate to converge to roughly similar positions...

    Replies: @Johnny Rico, @Intelligent Dasein

    Everybody’s predictions are just vague enough so no matter what the outcome and when you will all be arguing you were right and providing links to where “See, I said this in April.” Spare me.

    What does “by early summer mean”? Put a date on it and a number instead of “as many as a million.”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong

  106. @Ron Unz
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Actually, I might as well expand a little on the fairly strong circumstantial evidence that Coronavirus was an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) launched by the Deep State Neocons.

    China was hit at the worst possible time, and if not for its astonishing effort in quickly locking down 700 million Chinese, it would have suffered exactly the sort of devastation that America is now experiencing, but in our case brought about entirely by our totally incompetent national government.

    But consider Iran. The only political elites anywhere in the world who have so far died from the Coronavirus are the Iranian ones, who began to fall ill before the outbreak in Italy was even getting much attention noticeable. Various Neocons were even sending out Tweets bragging about all the high-ranking Iranians who were dying of the Coronavirus.

    When you look at the timing of their deaths, they were probably infected just three or four weeks after America had assassinated Iran's top military leader. Talk about *astonishing* coincidences.

    Suppose the Gambino and Columbo crime families in NYC are in a bloody turf war, and a Gambino capo is found shot to death. Is there any proof who did it? No, but most people probably have a pretty good guess...

    Replies: @UK, @Achmed E. Newman, @A123

    You mean someone in the Gambino gerontocracy dies of a flu-like virus?

    Do you really believe the bizarre nonsense you write?

  107. @Ron Unz
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Actually, I might as well expand a little on the fairly strong circumstantial evidence that Coronavirus was an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) launched by the Deep State Neocons.

    China was hit at the worst possible time, and if not for its astonishing effort in quickly locking down 700 million Chinese, it would have suffered exactly the sort of devastation that America is now experiencing, but in our case brought about entirely by our totally incompetent national government.

    But consider Iran. The only political elites anywhere in the world who have so far died from the Coronavirus are the Iranian ones, who began to fall ill before the outbreak in Italy was even getting much attention noticeable. Various Neocons were even sending out Tweets bragging about all the high-ranking Iranians who were dying of the Coronavirus.

    When you look at the timing of their deaths, they were probably infected just three or four weeks after America had assassinated Iran's top military leader. Talk about *astonishing* coincidences.

    Suppose the Gambino and Columbo crime families in NYC are in a bloody turf war, and a Gambino capo is found shot to death. Is there any proof who did it? No, but most people probably have a pretty good guess...

    Replies: @UK, @Achmed E. Newman, @A123

    Ron, let me get this straight. The Neocons (and I doubt I like them any more than you do) were expert enough to specifically infect these high-up politicians in Iran, and let the Kung Flu loose in Wuhan China during the Spring Festival, but did not have enough brains to think about the infection coming to the US via the 100’s of thousands of Chinese people who travel back and forth during this period. Is that it? Why not infect some of the top CCP officials in Peking, instead of the general population in the city of Wuhan? Too difficult?

    Yes, these Neocons probably would want to see excuses for war all over the place (on the mistaken impression that the US military is overwhelming as if this was 1990 AND we were not way TF beyond broke). I get that they possibly don’t care about the general American people. Would the Neocon types in America somehow have thought they were immune to, not just the virus, but ANY of the economic fallout that would result? I mean, if they were smart enough to do this deed, wouldn’t they foresee some of that?

    Now, there have got to be brainy, powerful (on the level of Soros) Deep State types that think up this kind of stuff. This sure seems like a poor implementation. Maybe that’s your point, that they are smart, evil, but often stupid?

    I tend to lean toward the obvious causes that (unless you’ve got something here) have not been proven impossible. Transfer from wild animals to humans in the places where the Chinese eat any and every thing. (Note that this is more prevalent in the south of China – yes, I know Wuhan is not way south.) What about that one of just a handful of virus study labs that is in Wuhan, and the serious lack of quality control in China? Those 2 possibilities just seem very much more likely to me.

    • Agree: Yahya K.
  108. @Ron Unz
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Actually, I might as well expand a little on the fairly strong circumstantial evidence that Coronavirus was an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) launched by the Deep State Neocons.

    China was hit at the worst possible time, and if not for its astonishing effort in quickly locking down 700 million Chinese, it would have suffered exactly the sort of devastation that America is now experiencing, but in our case brought about entirely by our totally incompetent national government.

    But consider Iran. The only political elites anywhere in the world who have so far died from the Coronavirus are the Iranian ones, who began to fall ill before the outbreak in Italy was even getting much attention noticeable. Various Neocons were even sending out Tweets bragging about all the high-ranking Iranians who were dying of the Coronavirus.

    When you look at the timing of their deaths, they were probably infected just three or four weeks after America had assassinated Iran's top military leader. Talk about *astonishing* coincidences.

    Suppose the Gambino and Columbo crime families in NYC are in a bloody turf war, and a Gambino capo is found shot to death. Is there any proof who did it? No, but most people probably have a pretty good guess...

    Replies: @UK, @Achmed E. Newman, @A123

    There still is no evidence that this is anything other than natural occurrence.
    _____

    Without physical evidence, it is pretty easy to pour “circumstances and timing” into a vessel formed of “existing beliefs“.

    For, example I believe that Ayatollah Khameni is a sociopath who threatens the region and the world.

    Let us combine that with your information:

    But consider Iran. The only political elites anywhere in the world who have so far died from the Coronavirus are the Iranian ones, who began to fall ill before the outbreak in Italy was even getting much attention noticeable.

    On a circumstantial basis this points at *astonishing* coincidences.

    A failing regime like sociopath Khameni’s would desperately want bioweapons. Then a deliberate test or accidental bioweapon release occurs Iran, and it goes badly.

    Coincidentally, soon afterwards, the bioweapon winds up loose at the known Wuhan Bioweapon lab. Almost as if a Chinese weapons specialist was exposed during the Iranian release and brought it home.

    Evidence that China and Iran are trading in WMD’s?

    On circumstantial grounds the timing is highly suggestive. And, China’s openly illegal purchase and transport (ghost ships) of Iranian oil places them well outside international norms.
    _____

    Without physical evidence, there is enough circumstance in a situation this complex for anybody to blame anybody.

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @A123

    Very interesting scenario.

  109. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha. Maybe I should revise my traditional opinion about the stupidity of the American people...

    By contrast, right-wingers are such total dolts.

    The horrific calamity now befalling America, perhaps involving a million deaths by early summer, is almost entirely the fault of the moronic and incompetent American government, especially including Trump. They and their media allies spent nearly two months saying "No Problem!" and "It's Just the Flu!!!" and now that they've found out they HAVE a problem and "It's NOT the Flu!" they want to blame China for their total incompetence.

    Look, China shut down their entire economy and locked down 700 million(!!!) of their own people, a national quarantine that was probably 1000x larger than the largest in history in their desperate efforts to stamp out the Coronavirus. It was on the front pages of all our newspapers. Gee, maybe that should have told us the Coronavirus was something dangerous that we should take steps to block, just like Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore so successfully did.

    As I've pointed out, a particularly courageous and competent local government official in California may have easily saved a million American lives by starting the wave of lockdowns:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-government-employee-who-may-have-saved-a-million-american-lives/

    Finally, there's a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:

    https://www.unz.com/article/was-coronavirus-a-biowarfare-attack-against-china/

    https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Replies: @UK, @22pp22, @Elmer's Washable School Glue, @A123, @obwandiyag, @Joe Stalin, @Audacious Epigone, @Bardon Kaldian, @Sean, @Thomm, @The Alarmist, @Thea, @Corvinus

    Everything you said in your post prior to this statement was spot-on without issue.

    “Finally, there’s a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books…”

    The problem is what is the percentage that equates to “pretty reasonably possibility”? How are we able to quantify it? Moreover, your pronouncement only fans the flames of those “Covid-19 hoaxes” and die-hard righties who already believe in the machinations of Deep State Neocons engaging in this conduct. Rather than say “it’s possible”, they take your meaning to the next step–“no, it happened!”. As a result, they ignore any counter evidence and accept proof that reinforces their position they deem to be “iron-clad”.

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
    @Corvinus

    “pretty reasonably possibility”

    Let's just say it is A LOT.

    https://mykobarisland.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/thumbnail_attach26741_20200403_214523-1.jpg

  110. @A123
    @Ron Unz


    Finally, there’s a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books:
     
    An attack with a bio-WMD invites a response with a nuclear-WMD.

    How does a total forces exchange with nuclear weapons help the Deep State / NeoConDemocrats?

    The Deep State is trying to overthrow the Constitution so that it can take the land. That is what the bogus impeachment charging "Obstruction of Nothing" was for. Turning the U.S. into a nuclear wasteland does not align with their depraved goals.

    An accidental release from the Wuhan bio-weapon facility remains much more plausible than a false-flag attempt to start war.

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @Corvinus

    “The Deep State is trying to overthrow the Constitution so that it can take the land.”

    Wait, I thought that the Covid-19 pandemic would finally bring globalism and immigration to its knees, and the Jewish banking cabal will come to a screeching halt!

    Thanks, E. Michael Jones!

    https://culturewars.com/news/the-coronavirus-and-the-culture-war

    “Just as the Black Death, which carried off 40 percent of Europe’s population in the mid-14th century, signaled the end of the Middle Ages in de Mattei’s eyes, so the coronavirus pandemic signals the end of the American Empire and the era of Globalization, as practiced by oligarchs like George Soros. Globalization is both the perpetrator and ultimate victim of the current crisis because it “destroys space and pulverizes distances.” But because God is in charge of history, Globalization finds itself subjected to the cunning of reason which has created “social distance, the isolation of the individual and quarantine,” all of which are “diametrically opposed to the ‘open society’ hoped for by George Soros.” De Mattei believes that the pandemic is bringing an end to “the world without borders.”

  111. @A123
    @Ron Unz

    There still is no evidence that this is anything other than natural occurrence.
    _____

    Without physical evidence, it is pretty easy to pour "circumstances and timing" into a vessel formed of "existing beliefs".

    For, example I believe that Ayatollah Khameni is a sociopath who threatens the region and the world.

    Let us combine that with your information:


    But consider Iran. The only political elites anywhere in the world who have so far died from the Coronavirus are the Iranian ones, who began to fall ill before the outbreak in Italy was even getting much attention noticeable.
     
    On a circumstantial basis this points at *astonishing* coincidences.

    A failing regime like sociopath Khameni's would desperately want bioweapons. Then a deliberate test or accidental bioweapon release occurs Iran, and it goes badly.

    Coincidentally, soon afterwards, the bioweapon winds up loose at the known Wuhan Bioweapon lab. Almost as if a Chinese weapons specialist was exposed during the Iranian release and brought it home.

    Evidence that China and Iran are trading in WMD's?

    On circumstantial grounds the timing is highly suggestive. And, China's openly illegal purchase and transport (ghost ships) of Iranian oil places them well outside international norms.
    _____

    Without physical evidence, there is enough circumstance in a situation this complex for anybody to blame anybody.

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    Very interesting scenario.

  112. @A123
    @Achmed E. Newman

    The U.S. and the Saudis don't really get along. That cooperation is based on the common threat from Iran. China and India don't really get along. However, if the U.S. goes out of its way to become a common threat......

    Further, there are Globalist Republicans in the Senate. Sad, but true. To keep confirmations running, he has to make concessions that are not his first choice. If Trump had tried absolutism, much less progress would have been made.

    If visas could be handled in total isolation from all other issues, it would be easy to fix the abuses. Unfortunately, the world does not exist as a series of issues that are 100% isolated from each other.

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Let me back up a bit, back to the point of the Trump presidency, at least for me. He only got ANYWHERE because he talked about the ills of illegal immigration way back in the summer of ’15 when no other high-level politicians did. I never saw him as a man of principles of any sort, but he does seem to like Americans, contrary to the Hildabeast, and most of the rest of them. I believe he still does, in fact.

    That doesn’t change the fact that I’ve found out he’s done many stupid things that cannot be blamed on “being a good politician” or “judges would have blocked it”. He is also a spiteful man, even when it works to ruin his chance of getting things done.

    I hope you will take the 5 minutes and read another VDare article, A123. We mostly agree on stuff within this blog, so that’s why I think I have a chance of getting you to see this.

    Trump is ACTIVELY supporting Jeff Session’s opponent for R-primary for Senator from Alabama, because he is buttsore about the guy recusing himself way back in that Russia thing*. Now, whether you agree with the former Attorney General’s playing by the Marquise of Queensbury’s rules against the ruthless and lawless other side is another question. However, Mr. Sessions always supported Donald Trump due to Mr. Session’s patriotic stance on immigration (a hopeful guy about Trump like me). He was never disloyal to Trump.

    Now, Trump’s firing him is Trump’s call, and I was not really against that at the time (oh, and the name’s – “Sleepy Jeff” – I couldn’t care less). However when the guy is running for Senate again with an A+ rating as an immigration patriot against some unpatriotic asshole, well you don’t need to support the guy that’s not on your side on immigration. How is that smart in any way?! It’s nothing but 14 y/o schoolgirl antics.

    Trump World Comes After Sessions, But Immigrant Patriot Message Still A Winner In Alabama

    .

    * I do my best not to follow any of that crap, but I do know that much.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Again. I understand where you are coming from. Trump's statements against H1B visas did pull me into his camp.

    I hope Sessions wins in Alabama. However, I do understand that Sessions recusal vastly weakened Trump's position by allowing the Mueller sham to run amok. Trump is understandably upset with what he sees as Sessions betrayal.
    ____

    Trump has made some gains on immigration.

    Keeping asylum applicants in Mexico has cut down on South American migration. (1) It Even encouraged Mexico to or prevent caravans from heading north. (2)


    The abrupt halt of the caravan stood in stark contrast to last year when waves of U.S.-bound caravans – including one of at least 7,000 people – drew widespread media coverage while immigration officials on both sides of the border struggled to stem the flow.

    Under pressure from Washington, the government has been taking a tougher stance in dealing with migrants, and many Mexicans are being less welcoming.
     
    ____

    There are only two options in the upcoming election:

    DNC Globalist -- Biden(?) -- Open borders, subsidy payments to illegals, etc.
    GOP Populist -- Trump -- Underperforming, but he will take some steps in the right direction.

    The open assault on U.S. citizens promised by the DNC is a good reason to vote for Trump even though he is imperfect.

    PEACE 😷
    _______

    (1) https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/supreme-court-allows-trumps-remain-in-mexico-immigration-policy-to-stay-in-place

    (2) https://www.foxnews.com/world/mexico-caravan-2000-bound-united-states

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @Achmed E. Newman

    He was never disloyal to Trump.

    That's the rub, though--the nation's top cop stepping aside so a three year long fishing expedition could occur when Sessions could have put an end to it is at least plausibly an act of disloyalty by omission. With great power comes great responsibility.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Achmed E. Newman

  113. @Talha
    @nebulafox


    The irony here is that the pandemic is gonna hit Trump’s voting base like a Mack truck.
     
    Why do you say that?

    I do know one thing; one of my sister in laws is a dairy vet and talks to a lot of farmers. She works basically in “Trump country”. She is mostly a liberal (though having two Muslim sisters has tempered some of her views), so she avoids a lot of political talking with her clients, but she told us that a LOT of them basically believe this is just a conspiracy to take control by the liberals. She just nods her head politely and goes about her work.

    Is that why you think it’s going to hit them hard, because they are not taking it seriously or taking any precautions? One thing though, those particular guys tend not to live in high density areas, so...

    Peace.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Is that why you think it’s going to hit them hard, because they are not taking it seriously or taking any precautions? One thing though, those particular guys tend not to live in high density areas, so…

    Rural areas where Trump voters reside have much lower hospital beds or ICU per capita than urban and suburban areas. Although cities and suburbs get hit first, when it arrives in the rural areas, the healthcare systems in the latter are more likely to be overwhelmed much more quickly. Also, in rural areas the population is older and sicker.

    • Thanks: Talha
    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @Twinkie


    Also, in rural areas the population is older and sicker.
     
    But also not rubbing elbows all the time, so it's much easier to practice social distancing and avoid catching things.

    I'm in a semi-rural area myself and am practicing shelter-in-place.  I haven't seen anyone FTF since Tuesday, freezer is stocked, pantry is stocked, I'm good for quite a while.  I will probably order take-out on Sunday to help keep my favorite restaurant in business, and that's when I will go get my weekly newspaper and refills of a few important consumables.  I had some sniffles yesterday but throwing a gram an hour of Vit. C at them seems to be doing the trick.

    My neighbors I'm not so sure about.  I see regular vehicle traffic in and out of some houses.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  114. Anon[993] • Disclaimer says:

    Centivax.com

    A guy at Centivax says he has a ‘cure’ for coronivirus19. He says it works by inhibiting its binding ability. He was on Tucker Carlson’s show on Fox. I dont know, but the seemed confident. Its an American company based in San Fransisco.
    Not my area, but perhaps some of your medically inclined readers could have an informed opinion.

  115. @Hail
    @Intelligent Dasein


    Every developed nation in the world now has an inverted demographic pyramid, so geezer votes and geezer money can muscle out the interests of younnger people, at least for awhile. At the same time, they in their aging decrepitude present a bigger and bigger target for every new infectious disease. Are we going to lock everything down each time there is a new strain of corona or flu making the rounds?
     
    One practical measure would be to restrict the right vote to a core-life age bracket. Say, persons age 25 to 75. Or some other range. I am not committed exactly to that one. The point is put in a 'voting-rights retirement' mechanism. And also restrict political office-holding by age, say to persons age 30 to 80.

    On your 75th birthday, your right to vote is gracefully retired and we hold a party honoring you and you life's work. You can still follow politics and comment on it, but just as one retires from one's career and lives a graceful retirement, it makes sense to have the same mechanism for voting.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    On your 75th birthday, your right to vote is gracefully retired

    Great idea. Why not strip old people of all their legal rights as well while you’re at it?

    • Replies: @Talha
    @dfordoom

    "Get in line for your Solyent Green processing, Boomer!"

    On a serious note, I have no clue why a society would not want to benefit from the wisdom of those that have had the most experience with life. I mean, if you are going to give me a choice between stripping away the voting rights of; 1) a 75 year old that may have fought in a war, raised a family including grandchildren, has possibly retired at his job after having managed others or even having built his own business, and has decades of volunteering in his community or 2) and 25 year old, say, swimsuit model...well...sorry Becky, hand over your card.

    Peace.

    Replies: @iffen, @Hail

  116. @Twinkie
    @Talha


    Is that why you think it’s going to hit them hard, because they are not taking it seriously or taking any precautions? One thing though, those particular guys tend not to live in high density areas, so…
     
    Rural areas where Trump voters reside have much lower hospital beds or ICU per capita than urban and suburban areas. Although cities and suburbs get hit first, when it arrives in the rural areas, the healthcare systems in the latter are more likely to be overwhelmed much more quickly. Also, in rural areas the population is older and sicker.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    Also, in rural areas the population is older and sicker.

    But also not rubbing elbows all the time, so it’s much easier to practice social distancing and avoid catching things.

    I’m in a semi-rural area myself and am practicing shelter-in-place.  I haven’t seen anyone FTF since Tuesday, freezer is stocked, pantry is stocked, I’m good for quite a while.  I will probably order take-out on Sunday to help keep my favorite restaurant in business, and that’s when I will go get my weekly newspaper and refills of a few important consumables.  I had some sniffles yesterday but throwing a gram an hour of Vit. C at them seems to be doing the trick.

    My neighbors I’m not so sure about.  I see regular vehicle traffic in and out of some houses.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Mr. Rational

    One thing to keep in mind is that some “rural” areas can be quite dense, e.g. a large town in the middle of nowhere. There used to be higher tier hospitals in such towns in the past, but now many of those hospitals have closed or drastically reduced their (very costly) trauma/ICU capacity.

    This is not much of a problem with an odd car or hunting accident or two or some sort of a minor health emergency (stabilize and transport to a bigger hospital), but becomes a huge problem in mass casualty/pandemic scenarios.

  117. @dfordoom
    @Hail


    On your 75th birthday, your right to vote is gracefully retired
     
    Great idea. Why not strip old people of all their legal rights as well while you're at it?

    Replies: @Talha

    “Get in line for your Solyent Green processing, Boomer!”

    On a serious note, I have no clue why a society would not want to benefit from the wisdom of those that have had the most experience with life. I mean, if you are going to give me a choice between stripping away the voting rights of; 1) a 75 year old that may have fought in a war, raised a family including grandchildren, has possibly retired at his job after having managed others or even having built his own business, and has decades of volunteering in his community or 2) and 25 year old, say, swimsuit model…well…sorry Becky, hand over your card.

    Peace.

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Replies: @iffen
    @Talha

    25 year old, say, swimsuit model…well…sorry Becky, hand over your card.

    No!

    Not the swimsuit models!

    Let's not go completely nuts and turn this into a real disaster.

    Replies: @Talha

    , @Hail
    @Talha

    I am thinking your comment is a form of subtle trolling.

    Honor older people, yes. You will find none disagreeing in good faith. Certainly not me.

    Aren't you a Muslim immigrant in the US and a kind of resident proselytizer around here? If so, perhaps the idea here is that Islam is superior to our silly and backwards European-Christian ways and that you can instruct us on how to live better. A gentle lecture on how civilized people, like Muslims (of course!), honor the old might get through. Maybe we can yet join the ranks of civilized mankind, we silly white people,and might yet make something of ourselves, under the banner of Allah. (I guess that's the 'spiel.')

    But there is a real issue at hand, which Intelligent Dasein raised, in his usual style. Maybe I didn't do a good job at expanding on it. It's a tricky problem.

    Consider this (if anyone is still reading this, late-thread reply): By analogy, what if we said, "We honor our older people so much that we are never going to ask them to retire from their jobs and we will continue to allow them draw large salaries and occupy the best company positions until their deaths. Younger people will have to wait. It's only fair! Honor the old!"

    In fact, there are many societies which have this exact problem; young people unable to make headway, as the best positions are overly long occupied by older career people. One of the results of this lockout is thought to be a cratering birthrate, disrupted family formation, and other problems. This problem has led to mandatory-retirement ages.

    There are not easy answers here.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Talha

  118. @Mr. Rational
    @Twinkie


    Also, in rural areas the population is older and sicker.
     
    But also not rubbing elbows all the time, so it's much easier to practice social distancing and avoid catching things.

    I'm in a semi-rural area myself and am practicing shelter-in-place.  I haven't seen anyone FTF since Tuesday, freezer is stocked, pantry is stocked, I'm good for quite a while.  I will probably order take-out on Sunday to help keep my favorite restaurant in business, and that's when I will go get my weekly newspaper and refills of a few important consumables.  I had some sniffles yesterday but throwing a gram an hour of Vit. C at them seems to be doing the trick.

    My neighbors I'm not so sure about.  I see regular vehicle traffic in and out of some houses.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    One thing to keep in mind is that some “rural” areas can be quite dense, e.g. a large town in the middle of nowhere. There used to be higher tier hospitals in such towns in the past, but now many of those hospitals have closed or drastically reduced their (very costly) trauma/ICU capacity.

    This is not much of a problem with an odd car or hunting accident or two or some sort of a minor health emergency (stabilize and transport to a bigger hospital), but becomes a huge problem in mass casualty/pandemic scenarios.

  119. @Corvinus
    @Ron Unz

    Everything you said in your post prior to this statement was spot-on without issue.


    "Finally, there’s a pretty reasonably possibility that the Coronavirus was actually an American biowarfare attack against China (and Iran) by the Deep State Neocons, which would make the ongoing blowback in our own country something for the all-time history books..."
     
    The problem is what is the percentage that equates to "pretty reasonably possibility"? How are we able to quantify it? Moreover, your pronouncement only fans the flames of those "Covid-19 hoaxes" and die-hard righties who already believe in the machinations of Deep State Neocons engaging in this conduct. Rather than say "it's possible", they take your meaning to the next step--"no, it happened!". As a result, they ignore any counter evidence and accept proof that reinforces their position they deem to be "iron-clad".

    Replies: @Johnny Rico

    “pretty reasonably possibility”

    Let’s just say it is A LOT.

  120. @Ron Unz
    @Intelligent Dasein


    The total death rate will level off at something not significantly higher than 0.1% of the worst affected populations (the 0.3% figure bandied about looks to be a good guess at the upper bound)
     
    Well, I'm the wild-eyed lunatic warning that we might have as many as a million or more deaths by early summer.

    Meanwhile, you're the zealous debunker, calling this a "nothingburger" and arguing that a 0.3% death rate "looks to be a good guess at the upper bound."

    And 0.3% of America's 330M population is...a million deaths!

    It's nice to see that the ongoing facts are beginning to cause both sides on this debate to converge to roughly similar positions...

    Replies: @Johnny Rico, @Intelligent Dasein

    Mr. Unz, I was referring to 0.3% of the people who test positive, not 0.3% of the gross population.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Intelligent Dasein

    I hope you keep posting sequels to these graphs along with the predictions/nothingburger comments that accompanied:

    https://i2.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/corona-deaths-20200327.png?w=721&ssl=1


    It looks like Italy and Spain are starting to level off without yet breaking above the flu zone.
     
    https://i1.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/corona-deaths-20200401.png?w=717&ssl=1

    It’s three flu seasons rolled in to one, almost exactly. Not insignificant, but very far from being the end of the world.
     

    Replies: @128

    , @mh505
    @Intelligent Dasein

    I am beginning to get the notion that this type of error was perhaps not an oversight by Unz but a deliberate insertion.

  121. @Intelligent Dasein
    @Ron Unz

    Mr. Unz, I was referring to 0.3% of the people who test positive, not 0.3% of the gross population.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @mh505

    I hope you keep posting sequels to these graphs along with the predictions/nothingburger comments that accompanied:

    It looks like Italy and Spain are starting to level off without yet breaking above the flu zone.

    It’s three flu seasons rolled in to one, almost exactly. Not insignificant, but very far from being the end of the world.

    • Replies: @128
    @Twinkie

    It's hardly the plague of Justinian, this pandemic is way above the flu, but a lot below the bubonic plague, so it make it easy to dismiss for a lot of people.

  122. @Achmed E. Newman
    @A123

    Let me back up a bit, back to the point of the Trump presidency, at least for me. He only got ANYWHERE because he talked about the ills of illegal immigration way back in the summer of '15 when no other high-level politicians did. I never saw him as a man of principles of any sort, but he does seem to like Americans, contrary to the Hildabeast, and most of the rest of them. I believe he still does, in fact.

    That doesn't change the fact that I've found out he's done many stupid things that cannot be blamed on "being a good politician" or "judges would have blocked it". He is also a spiteful man, even when it works to ruin his chance of getting things done.

    I hope you will take the 5 minutes and read another VDare article, A123. We mostly agree on stuff within this blog, so that's why I think I have a chance of getting you to see this.

    Trump is ACTIVELY supporting Jeff Session's opponent for R-primary for Senator from Alabama, because he is buttsore about the guy recusing himself way back in that Russia thing*. Now, whether you agree with the former Attorney General's playing by the Marquise of Queensbury's rules against the ruthless and lawless other side is another question. However, Mr. Sessions always supported Donald Trump due to Mr. Session's patriotic stance on immigration (a hopeful guy about Trump like me). He was never disloyal to Trump.

    Now, Trump's firing him is Trump's call, and I was not really against that at the time (oh, and the name's - "Sleepy Jeff" - I couldn't care less). However when the guy is running for Senate again with an A+ rating as an immigration patriot against some unpatriotic asshole, well you don't need to support the guy that's not on your side on immigration. How is that smart in any way?! It's nothing but 14 y/o schoolgirl antics.

    Trump World Comes After Sessions, But Immigrant Patriot Message Still A Winner In Alabama




    .

    * I do my best not to follow any of that crap, but I do know that much.

    Replies: @A123, @Audacious Epigone

    Again. I understand where you are coming from. Trump’s statements against H1B visas did pull me into his camp.

    I hope Sessions wins in Alabama. However, I do understand that Sessions recusal vastly weakened Trump’s position by allowing the Mueller sham to run amok. Trump is understandably upset with what he sees as Sessions betrayal.
    ____

    Trump has made some gains on immigration.

    Keeping asylum applicants in Mexico has cut down on South American migration. (1) It Even encouraged Mexico to or prevent caravans from heading north. (2)

    The abrupt halt of the caravan stood in stark contrast to last year when waves of U.S.-bound caravans – including one of at least 7,000 people – drew widespread media coverage while immigration officials on both sides of the border struggled to stem the flow.

    Under pressure from Washington, the government has been taking a tougher stance in dealing with migrants, and many Mexicans are being less welcoming.

    ____

    There are only two options in the upcoming election:

    DNC Globalist — Biden(?) — Open borders, subsidy payments to illegals, etc.
    GOP Populist — Trump — Underperforming, but he will take some steps in the right direction.

    The open assault on U.S. citizens promised by the DNC is a good reason to vote for Trump even though he is imperfect.

    PEACE 😷
    _______

    (1) https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/supreme-court-allows-trumps-remain-in-mexico-immigration-policy-to-stay-in-place

    (2) https://www.foxnews.com/world/mexico-caravan-2000-bound-united-states

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @A123

    There's really no choice, A123. But yes, I'll go out and vote for Trump.

  123. @Ron Unz
    @nebulafox

    Well, here's a comment I left last week on a different thread:


    Well, if the estimates—including those of Boris Johnson—are correct 60-70% of Americans will be infected, especially in the New York area where the epidemic is raging uncontrolled.

    I realize that Trump is a notorious germophobe, but given how contagious it is and how many people he meets, isn’t he likely to get infected? He’s probably too proud to start wearing a mask against “Just the Flu!!”

    If/when he gets infected, given his age and weight problems, isn’t he in a pretty high risk group?

    And don’t Biden, Bloomberg, and Sanders pretty much fall into the same category?

    I wonder if the endgame of America’s Coronavirus debate will be Trump Tweeting out insults while hooked up to a respirator, with Sanders, Bloomberg, and Biden lying next to him.

    Doesn’t this really remind you of the old Politburo in the last years of the USSR?
     
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/pm-boris-johnson-infected/#comment-3798999

    Replies: @A123, @nebulafox

    >Doesn’t this really remind you of the old Politburo in the last years of the USSR?

    Pretty much. I don’t think the fact that we’re now ruled by a gerontocracy is behind all our problems, but it is definitely exacerbating them, not least because it helps justify the “apres moi, le deluge” attitude that seems to be normative in the favored policies of US elites.

  124. @Anon
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5W9mZRNZwVE

    What?

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Yikes.

    It’s incompetence at every level–the CDC is now tacitly admitting that masks were the way to go from the beginning by offering a slightly more sophisticated excuse for failure.

  125. That does not somehow invalidate the fact that a lot of the accusations against the “Boomers” essentially mortgaging our future, policy-wise, are grounded in a certain reality.

    Of course. But many of them are learning from that as well…a wisdom that can still be passed on while there is time.

    Maybe it’s a cultural thing, I don’t know – I have a tough time dismissing the wisdom and experience of the elder generation.

    Peace.

  126. @Ron Unz
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Agreed, but would they — and those below them who would have had to carry out the details — be so stupid as to ignore what I believe is the wisdom arrived at early in history by military men, i.e. that bio-attacks are worse than useless because blowback from the weapons can occur, literally on a battlefield if the winds change, or figuratively when potentially-infected, asymptomatic-yet-contagious citizens from your target country travel daily to countries all over the world, including yours?
     
    Well sure, it would have been *astonishingly* stupid and reckless. But if (as seems reasonably likely), America will suffer a devastated economy and maybe a million or more deaths because the leadership totally ignored the possibility of the Coronavirus spreading here...well, they've proven themselves to be astonishingly stupid and reckless.

    Also don't forget, after SARS broke out in East Asia in the early-2000s, America took little action, yet it never spread here. So Deep State Neocons could have (foolishly) believed that a bioweapon attack on China (and Iran) would also not produce any substantial US blowback.

    Replies: @Antiwar7, @Audacious Epigone

    How do the neocons expect to fund the US military if China is economically crippled? Without China’s productive capacity, consumer prices go up and treasury demand goes down.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Audacious Epigone


    How do the neocons expect to fund the US military if China is economically crippled? Without China’s productive capacity, consumer prices go up and treasury demand goes down.
     
    Look, major elements of the Neocons have been shrieking for years about the terrible danger of China and the need to block its rising power. I read it almost every day in my major newspapers and I'd assume its ubiquitous on FoxNews.

    The problem for them is that China's economy is now considerably larger than that of the US, and China dominates many crucial areas of leading technology like 5G. China's military is far too strong for any attack, especially given their carrier-killer missiles. So the only possible weapon they had available was a biowarfare attack.

    As I've emphasized, the virus appeared in Wuhan just after 300 American military officers had visited the city. What would Americans think if 300 PRC officers had visited Chicago and soon afterwards a mysterious, deadly plague broke out?

    It seemed quite likely that the Coronavirus would spread through China as hundreds of millions traveled during Lunar New Year, and become permanently endemic and uncontrollable, devasting the Chinese economy and possibly causing the collapse of their political system. America would then gain enormous advantages and China would be helpless to resist.

    Instead, China launched the most astonishing public health measures in human history, locking down 700 million people and successfully stamping out the disease. Meanwhile, America's totally lazy and incompetent government ignored the problem, thereby probably condemning our own country to suffer the fate that (quite possibly) the Deep State Neocons had intended for China.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @A123, @Audacious Epigone

  127. @Ron Unz
    @Audacious Epigone


    China could have been more forthcoming in December, January, and February. And if current reporting is to be believed, China should now be far more forthcoming about what the secret has been to effectively wipe the virus out within its borders than it has been.
     
    I really don't know what you mean by this. China's "secret" in effectively wiping out the virus was to shut down its entire economy and lock down 700 million Chinese for a couple of months or so. It was on the front page of all the newspapers. They also did a huge amount of testing and contact-tracing.

    Meanwhile, South Korea, Singapore, etc. took early steps to head off an epidemic using various public measures.

    The bottom line is that we have a totally incompetent national government that said "No Problem!" for a couple of months and did almost nothing, so that vast numbers of Americans will now die.

    Indeed, I think some of the pro-Trump shills like Limbaugh may *still* be claiming "It's Just the Flu!!!" and no big deal.

    Why would China need to give us the "mysterious secret" of how to combat an ordinary flu epidemic?

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Audacious Epigone

    They denied it. Their man at the World Health Organization said it wasn’t a pandemic. They continued to allow international flights in and out of China–this all after the Wuhan lock down. These do not seem like the actions of a friend or ally (the other potential survey answers).

    At present, neither Japan or Sweden have taken measures anything close to as drastic as China did. Sweden in particular doesn’t seem to have done much of anything besides close colleges and recommend against large public gatherings. This paragraph may not age well but it’s not obviously incorrect in my view.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Audacious Epigone


    Japan or Sweden
     
    Japan never tested widely, I suspect, because the government desperately wanted to hold on to the Olympics. Now that that’s off the table and testing has increased, its numbers are going up. Sweden is in its early days.

    South Korea was hit hard early on, but the government was very well prepared due to an earlier MERS outbreak, engaged in aggressive contact tracing, and its people (except the cultists who spread it in one city) generally paid heed to the behavioral guidelines.
    , @nebulafox
    @Audacious Epigone

    The WHO did Taiwan dirty, particularly disgraceful considering Taiwanese acumen in fighting corona-chan. No guessing as to why.

    Personally, I don't appreciate being lectured on the finer points of political correctness by an organization so clearly under CPC influence.

  128. @Achmed E. Newman
    @A123

    Let me back up a bit, back to the point of the Trump presidency, at least for me. He only got ANYWHERE because he talked about the ills of illegal immigration way back in the summer of '15 when no other high-level politicians did. I never saw him as a man of principles of any sort, but he does seem to like Americans, contrary to the Hildabeast, and most of the rest of them. I believe he still does, in fact.

    That doesn't change the fact that I've found out he's done many stupid things that cannot be blamed on "being a good politician" or "judges would have blocked it". He is also a spiteful man, even when it works to ruin his chance of getting things done.

    I hope you will take the 5 minutes and read another VDare article, A123. We mostly agree on stuff within this blog, so that's why I think I have a chance of getting you to see this.

    Trump is ACTIVELY supporting Jeff Session's opponent for R-primary for Senator from Alabama, because he is buttsore about the guy recusing himself way back in that Russia thing*. Now, whether you agree with the former Attorney General's playing by the Marquise of Queensbury's rules against the ruthless and lawless other side is another question. However, Mr. Sessions always supported Donald Trump due to Mr. Session's patriotic stance on immigration (a hopeful guy about Trump like me). He was never disloyal to Trump.

    Now, Trump's firing him is Trump's call, and I was not really against that at the time (oh, and the name's - "Sleepy Jeff" - I couldn't care less). However when the guy is running for Senate again with an A+ rating as an immigration patriot against some unpatriotic asshole, well you don't need to support the guy that's not on your side on immigration. How is that smart in any way?! It's nothing but 14 y/o schoolgirl antics.

    Trump World Comes After Sessions, But Immigrant Patriot Message Still A Winner In Alabama




    .

    * I do my best not to follow any of that crap, but I do know that much.

    Replies: @A123, @Audacious Epigone

    He was never disloyal to Trump.

    That’s the rub, though–the nation’s top cop stepping aside so a three year long fishing expedition could occur when Sessions could have put an end to it is at least plausibly an act of disloyalty by omission. With great power comes great responsibility.

    • Agree: A123
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Audacious Epigone

    The days of gentlemen-politicians are long gone (if there were any). The trick is to look like one on TV, but be a knife-wielding assassin where substance of the matter is concerned.

    Replies: @Talha, @res

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Audacious Epigone

    I suppose so. As I wrote, I didn't make any effort to follow any of all that. To go along with this banana-republic government, why didn't Trump just fire the guy right after that and get a guy who wouldn't recuse him. (I'm not knocking it and what you and Twinkie are saying about this, BTW.)

    The fact is, since Sessions is no longer AG, and he's an immigration patriot, if not endorsing the guy, couldn't Trump just stay out of Jeff Sessions' Senate primary election? No, he has to be a spiteful bitch about it. There's no call for that.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke, @Twinkie

  129. @Audacious Epigone
    @Achmed E. Newman

    He was never disloyal to Trump.

    That's the rub, though--the nation's top cop stepping aside so a three year long fishing expedition could occur when Sessions could have put an end to it is at least plausibly an act of disloyalty by omission. With great power comes great responsibility.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Achmed E. Newman

    The days of gentlemen-politicians are long gone (if there were any). The trick is to look like one on TV, but be a knife-wielding assassin where substance of the matter is concerned.

    • Replies: @Talha
    @Twinkie

    The subtle grin of agreement...
    https://www.biography.com/.image/t_share/MTE5NDg0MDU1MDQ5MzA3NjYz/niccolo-machiavelli-9392446-1-402.jpg

    Peace.

    , @res
    @Twinkie

    In other words, a sociopath. Or would con man be a better way to put it?

    Replies: @Talha, @nebulafox, @Twinkie

  130. @Audacious Epigone
    @Ron Unz

    They denied it. Their man at the World Health Organization said it wasn't a pandemic. They continued to allow international flights in and out of China--this all after the Wuhan lock down. These do not seem like the actions of a friend or ally (the other potential survey answers).

    At present, neither Japan or Sweden have taken measures anything close to as drastic as China did. Sweden in particular doesn't seem to have done much of anything besides close colleges and recommend against large public gatherings. This paragraph may not age well but it's not obviously incorrect in my view.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @nebulafox

    Japan or Sweden

    Japan never tested widely, I suspect, because the government desperately wanted to hold on to the Olympics. Now that that’s off the table and testing has increased, its numbers are going up. Sweden is in its early days.

    South Korea was hit hard early on, but the government was very well prepared due to an earlier MERS outbreak, engaged in aggressive contact tracing, and its people (except the cultists who spread it in one city) generally paid heed to the behavioral guidelines.

  131. @Twinkie
    @Audacious Epigone

    The days of gentlemen-politicians are long gone (if there were any). The trick is to look like one on TV, but be a knife-wielding assassin where substance of the matter is concerned.

    Replies: @Talha, @res

    The subtle grin of agreement…

    Peace.

  132. @Audacious Epigone
    @Ron Unz

    They denied it. Their man at the World Health Organization said it wasn't a pandemic. They continued to allow international flights in and out of China--this all after the Wuhan lock down. These do not seem like the actions of a friend or ally (the other potential survey answers).

    At present, neither Japan or Sweden have taken measures anything close to as drastic as China did. Sweden in particular doesn't seem to have done much of anything besides close colleges and recommend against large public gatherings. This paragraph may not age well but it's not obviously incorrect in my view.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @nebulafox

    The WHO did Taiwan dirty, particularly disgraceful considering Taiwanese acumen in fighting corona-chan. No guessing as to why.

    Personally, I don’t appreciate being lectured on the finer points of political correctness by an organization so clearly under CPC influence.

  133. @Audacious Epigone
    @Achmed E. Newman

    He was never disloyal to Trump.

    That's the rub, though--the nation's top cop stepping aside so a three year long fishing expedition could occur when Sessions could have put an end to it is at least plausibly an act of disloyalty by omission. With great power comes great responsibility.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Achmed E. Newman

    I suppose so. As I wrote, I didn’t make any effort to follow any of all that. To go along with this banana-republic government, why didn’t Trump just fire the guy right after that and get a guy who wouldn’t recuse him. (I’m not knocking it and what you and Twinkie are saying about this, BTW.)

    The fact is, since Sessions is no longer AG, and he’s an immigration patriot, if not endorsing the guy, couldn’t Trump just stay out of Jeff Sessions’ Senate primary election? No, he has to be a spiteful bitch about it. There’s no call for that.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @Achmed E. Newman


    No, he has to be a spiteful bitch about it. There’s no call for that.
     
    I clicked on "Agree" because I think Sessions is valuable in a Senate seat. However, for being the decisive factor in having made Trump's tenure a living hell during his first 3 years, under which a lesser man would have buckled*, it's actually not a bad thing that Trump should attempt to crush Sessions like a bug. If this act of perfidy isn't reason enough to rake Sessions over the coals, what is?

    * I can't ever be said to be a Trump fan, but I am impressed by his mental toughness (I reached for the word stoicism, but that's not a word that comes to mind when *anyone* thinks about Trump) in the face of relentless assault, abetted by quislings in his own party.
    , @Twinkie
    @Achmed E. Newman


    No, he has to be a spiteful bitch about it.
     
    Some people think that he ran for and became president to spite Obama who mocked him at the 2011 White House correspondents dinner.

    Frankly, I need someone spiteful on my side, because my political enemies (the left in general, Democrats, etc.) richly deserve some spite for their destruction of the America I love.

    But the problem with Trump is that his spite is not very discriminating. He goes guns-blazing at anyone and everyone he feels has wronged or crossed him. So far he has been very fortunate in his enemies. Let us hope that his luck continues and he doesn’t engage in too much friendly-fire.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  134. @A123
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Again. I understand where you are coming from. Trump's statements against H1B visas did pull me into his camp.

    I hope Sessions wins in Alabama. However, I do understand that Sessions recusal vastly weakened Trump's position by allowing the Mueller sham to run amok. Trump is understandably upset with what he sees as Sessions betrayal.
    ____

    Trump has made some gains on immigration.

    Keeping asylum applicants in Mexico has cut down on South American migration. (1) It Even encouraged Mexico to or prevent caravans from heading north. (2)


    The abrupt halt of the caravan stood in stark contrast to last year when waves of U.S.-bound caravans – including one of at least 7,000 people – drew widespread media coverage while immigration officials on both sides of the border struggled to stem the flow.

    Under pressure from Washington, the government has been taking a tougher stance in dealing with migrants, and many Mexicans are being less welcoming.
     
    ____

    There are only two options in the upcoming election:

    DNC Globalist -- Biden(?) -- Open borders, subsidy payments to illegals, etc.
    GOP Populist -- Trump -- Underperforming, but he will take some steps in the right direction.

    The open assault on U.S. citizens promised by the DNC is a good reason to vote for Trump even though he is imperfect.

    PEACE 😷
    _______

    (1) https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/supreme-court-allows-trumps-remain-in-mexico-immigration-policy-to-stay-in-place

    (2) https://www.foxnews.com/world/mexico-caravan-2000-bound-united-states

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    There’s really no choice, A123. But yes, I’ll go out and vote for Trump.

  135. @Talha
    @dfordoom

    "Get in line for your Solyent Green processing, Boomer!"

    On a serious note, I have no clue why a society would not want to benefit from the wisdom of those that have had the most experience with life. I mean, if you are going to give me a choice between stripping away the voting rights of; 1) a 75 year old that may have fought in a war, raised a family including grandchildren, has possibly retired at his job after having managed others or even having built his own business, and has decades of volunteering in his community or 2) and 25 year old, say, swimsuit model...well...sorry Becky, hand over your card.

    Peace.

    Replies: @iffen, @Hail

    25 year old, say, swimsuit model…well…sorry Becky, hand over your card.

    No!

    Not the swimsuit models!

    Let’s not go completely nuts and turn this into a real disaster.

    • Replies: @Talha
    @iffen

    Hey, I didn’t say they will lose citizenship; just that their voting rights would take priority on the chopping block given the choices I outlined.

    Peace.

  136. @Intelligent Dasein
    @Ron Unz

    Mr. Unz, I was referring to 0.3% of the people who test positive, not 0.3% of the gross population.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @mh505

    I am beginning to get the notion that this type of error was perhaps not an oversight by Unz but a deliberate insertion.

  137. @iffen
    @Talha

    25 year old, say, swimsuit model…well…sorry Becky, hand over your card.

    No!

    Not the swimsuit models!

    Let's not go completely nuts and turn this into a real disaster.

    Replies: @Talha

    Hey, I didn’t say they will lose citizenship; just that their voting rights would take priority on the chopping block given the choices I outlined.

    Peace.

  138. @Audacious Epigone
    @Ron Unz

    The schizophrenic, disjointed, contradictory US government response and China's potential culpability need not be mutually exclusive. The former is beyond dispute. I think the latter is still an open question, though.

    China could have been more forthcoming in December, January, and February. And if current reporting is to be believed, China should now be far more forthcoming about what the secret has been to effectively wipe the virus out within its borders than it has been.

    In case it was not obvious, the joke about being a paid shill had the CCP in mind. Despite my no doubt offering takes now and again Ron finds incorrect or irrelevant, he has never so much as hinted towards any editorial control over anything on this blog. There is no greater champion of honest inquiry and free expression than Ron Unz.

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @Tor597

    What exactly did China do that was not transparent? A lot of right wing pundits are saying that China tried to cover up their true stats and really millions of Chinese are dead.

    The truth is, what China experienced is exactly what you see in every other country. The true number of infected was a lot higher, but there was lack of testing in the beginning. Also there is confusion on how to classify + cases or deaths since so many are classified based on symptoms alone or have multiple conditions. This is exactly what you see in Italy and other nations, but there is no mass hysteria against Italy.

    In fact, it is America that has been the least transparent of all countries. This is one if the reasons to be suspicious of American culpability. What is America trying to hide? Keep in mind that China probably saw this as a bio attack and not a natural disaster.

    As far as China hiding their secret cure, that just says more about yourself than China. China has been very transparent on what they have tried and what works. It was China that first started Chloroquine. Meanwhile so many alt fighters want to say it was a French guy who invented this miracle cure.

    A big reason you think there is a big miracle cure China is using or others think millions died is because of American cope. Americans can’t fathom another country it used to assemble toys could be more competent than itself. So the response is a lot of whining about how they didn’t tell us it was going to be more than the flu!

    • Agree: Ron Unz
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Tor597

    If following the quarantine of Wuhan the Chinese had shut down international travel in and out of China, the rate of transmission would've been drastically reduced. That is so obvious in hindsight that it was, well, obvious enough for Donald Trump to suggest and try unsuccessfully to implement in late January, a month before a single American coronavirus death had occurred.

    Replies: @A123, @Anon, @Tor597

    , @dfordoom
    @Tor597


    A big reason you think there is a big miracle cure China is using or others think millions died is because of American cope. Americans can’t fathom another country it used to assemble toys could be more competent than itself. So the response is a lot of whining about how they didn’t tell us it was going to be more than the flu!
     
    Yep.
  139. @Sean
    @Ron Unz

    A past post suggested that a cabal behind a US bioweapon attack on China might have thought that since the SARS pathogen caused chaos in the East Asia, but no epidemic in America that the cousin of the SARS pathogen, SARS-CoV-2 would behave similarly. How could this be so; if they had created it they'd know certain pertinent facts:-


    https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/03/ace2-how-researchers-think-coronavirus-attacks-cells-and-how-it-could-be-stopped.html
    Q: What is the theoretical relationship between ACE2 and COVID-19?

    A: SARS and the virus that causes COVID-19, (SARS-CoV-2), are very similar in genetic makeup. Both have the spike that would connect to the receptor. That’s where the coronavirus gets its name; corona means crown in Latin, and the virus has crown-like spikes.

    Linda Saif, a virologist and distinguished university professor at Ohio State University, wrote in an email that several studies have reported that SARS CoV-2 has higher affinity for binding to ACE2 than SARS and this contributes to its more efficient transmission in humans
     

    The spike (suspected to be from a pangolin virus origin and to have got into SARS-CoV-2 by the two viruses recombining) would have been the gain of function modification. Hence SARS-CoV-2 would be know, as definitely different than SARS both having been tested. No they are not going to use something without testing. Also, given their deep seated distrust of antisemitism arising in white gentile society under conditions of societal breakdown, neocons would be extremely wary of the slightest possibility of a global pandemic. Why weaken China, somewhere all the (substantially Jewish) hedge fund industry are heavily invested in? A deeper than Deep State Strangelovian clique of the military?

    https://www.stripes.com/news/us/air-force-general-behind-5g-memo-leaves-white-house-1.509849
    A senior administration official confirmed that Air Force Brig. Gen. Robert Spalding is no longer serving as NSC senior director for strategic planning. Spalding was not fired, according to the official, who said his detail had ended and was not renewed. His last day as a White House staffer was Jan. 31. Spalding was not implicated in the leak of the memo, but officials said his advocacy for the plan had gone beyond his role, contributing to the NSC leadership's decision to send him back to the Air Force.

    Spalding was informed that his White House tenure was ending last week, the senior administration official said, before his memo and PowerPoint proposal were leaked. The Jan. 28 Axios story sparked alarm, drawing opposition from major telecom companies and catching the White House off guard.
     

    The Pentagon are not stupid or reckless enough to do something that can get them the death penalty if done without proper chain of command orders. Commands emanating from some mid level blob would be rejected, doubly so as they would be unlawful and against the military take, besides which, executing such an order might spark WW3. The Chinese are believed to be lying about their epidemic by understating infected and death too presumably) by 15 to 40 times. Were it a bioweapon attack China would already have determined that fact and for all they know the same US cabal is preparing a more targeted rapid follow up attack that will decemate China and hit the young instead of old. Were COVID-19 a US bioweapon attack, China would be threatening the US with war as we speak. Please don't take this as an insult but I think you have lost the place of late. I think you should ask a trusted friend to recommend a therapist. You would not try to be your own lawyer or dentist, no shame in consulting a psychologist .

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Tor597

    Lol.

    Are you even serious? The pentagon has a long history of flouting the chain of command and doing whatever the hell its masters in the deep state tell it.

    You need to deprogram yourself from American propaganda. Americans who engage in dirty work never pay the price. Look at Olie North. He served a token penalty and was rewarded with a nice media gig.

  140. @MEH 0910
    @DanHessinMD

    The old comments are still up at Lion's blog, and he has a new post up:
    https://twitter.com/LionBlogosphere/status/1245762147323392000

    Replies: @Tor597

    When did Lion turn against Trump? Was it solely due to the Corona Virus?

  141. @Twinkie
    @Intelligent Dasein

    I hope you keep posting sequels to these graphs along with the predictions/nothingburger comments that accompanied:

    https://i2.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/corona-deaths-20200327.png?w=721&ssl=1


    It looks like Italy and Spain are starting to level off without yet breaking above the flu zone.
     
    https://i1.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/corona-deaths-20200401.png?w=717&ssl=1

    It’s three flu seasons rolled in to one, almost exactly. Not insignificant, but very far from being the end of the world.
     

    Replies: @128

    It’s hardly the plague of Justinian, this pandemic is way above the flu, but a lot below the bubonic plague, so it make it easy to dismiss for a lot of people.

  142. @Twinkie
    @Audacious Epigone

    The days of gentlemen-politicians are long gone (if there were any). The trick is to look like one on TV, but be a knife-wielding assassin where substance of the matter is concerned.

    Replies: @Talha, @res

    In other words, a sociopath. Or would con man be a better way to put it?

    • Replies: @Talha
    @res


    In other words, a sociopath.
     
    Nah, dude, a psychopath; let's keep our terms straight:
    "Research Suggests Politicians are More Likely to Be Psychopaths:
    Several of the characteristics that define a psychopath also correspond to the traits that make for effective leaders. For politicians, this is true"
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/research-suggests-politicians-are-more-likely-to-be-psychopaths-11364143/

    Peace.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    , @nebulafox
    @res

    The requirements needed to succeed in American politics increasingly select for sociopathy: they are the ones that wouldn't care about the stresses that the 24/7 modern media treatment would have on them and those close to them.

    And real, no kidding sociopaths, even the high-functioning ones, tend to be extremely bad at long-term thinking. It's not hard to draw some connections between that and the behavior of our elites, economic, political, and media.

    , @Twinkie
    @res

    Very disciplined. Someone who has patriotic motives, is willing to use hard methods, but has the ability and willingness to be charming and soothing on TV.

    I know I am asking for the moon here. 2 and 3 are not uncommon - the trick is finding someone who has 1 as well. That’s hard, but - for all our sakes - not impossible.

    Replies: @RSDB, @res

  143. @res
    @Twinkie

    In other words, a sociopath. Or would con man be a better way to put it?

    Replies: @Talha, @nebulafox, @Twinkie

    In other words, a sociopath.

    Nah, dude, a psychopath; let’s keep our terms straight:
    “Research Suggests Politicians are More Likely to Be Psychopaths:
    Several of the characteristics that define a psychopath also correspond to the traits that make for effective leaders. For politicians, this is true”
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/research-suggests-politicians-are-more-likely-to-be-psychopaths-11364143/

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Talha

    My mental map has sociopath:psychopath as aspergers:autism.

    Replies: @Talha

  144. @Talha
    @res


    In other words, a sociopath.
     
    Nah, dude, a psychopath; let's keep our terms straight:
    "Research Suggests Politicians are More Likely to Be Psychopaths:
    Several of the characteristics that define a psychopath also correspond to the traits that make for effective leaders. For politicians, this is true"
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/research-suggests-politicians-are-more-likely-to-be-psychopaths-11364143/

    Peace.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    My mental map has sociopath:psychopath as aspergers:autism.

    • Replies: @Talha
    @Audacious Epigone

    This helps:
    "But psychopaths can often be seen by others as being charming and trustworthy, holding steady, normal jobs....When a psychopath engages in criminal behavior, they tend to do so in a way that minimizes risk to themselves. They will carefully plan criminal activity to ensure they don’t get caught, having contingency plans in place for every possibility...
    Sociopaths, in general, tend to be more impulsive and erratic in their behavior than their psychopath counterparts."
    https://psychcentral.com/blog/differences-between-a-psychopath-vs-sociopath/

    Obviously, one style is far more useful to a politician.

    Peace.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  145. @Audacious Epigone
    @Talha

    My mental map has sociopath:psychopath as aspergers:autism.

    Replies: @Talha

    This helps:
    “But psychopaths can often be seen by others as being charming and trustworthy, holding steady, normal jobs….When a psychopath engages in criminal behavior, they tend to do so in a way that minimizes risk to themselves. They will carefully plan criminal activity to ensure they don’t get caught, having contingency plans in place for every possibility…
    Sociopaths, in general, tend to be more impulsive and erratic in their behavior than their psychopath counterparts.”
    https://psychcentral.com/blog/differences-between-a-psychopath-vs-sociopath/

    Obviously, one style is far more useful to a politician.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Talha

    Keep that up, Mr. Talha, and you've got a huge libel suit on your hands.

    Consider yourself warned!

    - H. Clinton

    Chappaqua, NY

  146. @Tor597
    @Audacious Epigone

    What exactly did China do that was not transparent? A lot of right wing pundits are saying that China tried to cover up their true stats and really millions of Chinese are dead.

    The truth is, what China experienced is exactly what you see in every other country. The true number of infected was a lot higher, but there was lack of testing in the beginning. Also there is confusion on how to classify + cases or deaths since so many are classified based on symptoms alone or have multiple conditions. This is exactly what you see in Italy and other nations, but there is no mass hysteria against Italy.

    In fact, it is America that has been the least transparent of all countries. This is one if the reasons to be suspicious of American culpability. What is America trying to hide? Keep in mind that China probably saw this as a bio attack and not a natural disaster.

    As far as China hiding their secret cure, that just says more about yourself than China. China has been very transparent on what they have tried and what works. It was China that first started Chloroquine. Meanwhile so many alt fighters want to say it was a French guy who invented this miracle cure.

    A big reason you think there is a big miracle cure China is using or others think millions died is because of American cope. Americans can't fathom another country it used to assemble toys could be more competent than itself. So the response is a lot of whining about how they didn't tell us it was going to be more than the flu!

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone, @dfordoom

    If following the quarantine of Wuhan the Chinese had shut down international travel in and out of China, the rate of transmission would’ve been drastically reduced. That is so obvious in hindsight that it was, well, obvious enough for Donald Trump to suggest and try unsuccessfully to implement in late January, a month before a single American coronavirus death had occurred.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Audacious Epigone


    If following the quarantine of Wuhan the Chinese had shut down international travel in and out of China, the rate of transmission would’ve been drastically reduced. That is so obvious in hindsight that it was, well, obvious enough for Donald Trump to suggest and try unsuccessfully to implement in late January, a month before a single American coronavirus death had occurred.
     
    Q: -- The Senator from which state lead the charge to keep borders open?
    .
    https://i.imgur.com/0tlekso.jpg
    .
    A: -- New York
    ___________

    The Globalists (DNC and major media outlets) are more dangerous than WUHAN-19.

    Trump accurately stated that the CQ/AZ/ZN combo was promising. And, it was up to medical professionals whether or not to try the method.

    To protect BigPharma, the Globalist DNC/Media rolled into action to ridicule a possible cure using generic drugs. Now that this combo is proving useful, DNC Globalist credibility is further damaged.

    PEACE 😷
    , @Anon
    @Audacious Epigone


    late January, a month before a single American Coronavirus death had occurred
     

    How do you know when the first American death occurred?

    CDC director Dr Robert Redfield says some flu deaths were misdiagnosed and they were actually Coronavirus deaths. Did the first death happen last year? this year? He didn’t give any date. There is still no official words from the CDC or Dr Refield as to when these deaths took place.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_dU2RCqWs4

    , @Tor597
    @Audacious Epigone

    Are you kidding me?

    Asia pretty much contained the virus on their end. Meanwhile the entirety of the west has failed. This is everything from the UK purposely trying to infect everyone for lol herd immunity to Spring Breakers spreading the virus because it was just the flu bro.

    So what really made this an unmanageable global pandemic was the west failing to contain it on their end and continuing to travel because they thought it only kills Asians or old people.

    Now, if you trace back Americas timeline, Trump had multiple failures in acting swiftly. Look at NY right now. He should have shut down NY before it spread like China did to Wuhan. But he chickened out and now these NYers are going to infect the rest of the country and then the world.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

  147. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Intelligent Dasein

    OK, that was getting long, so here's my main point, or really a question:

    This divide is not along the usual political lines, I don't think. My family is a good example of that. I'm not talking about the doling out of the MegaBucks by the Feral Gov., as the solution to the problem governments have caused. That is indeed political along the usual dividing lines.

    Where are we getting our widely-differing perspectives from? In my opinion, it's a matter of time spent in from of the idiot plate, but, especially with the young people who don't so much, but spent 10-25% of their waking hours looking at their little screens, the ease of keeping up with the numbers involved in this "horror" have them sucked in.*

    This severe flu variant is the best thing that happened to the Lyin' Press and the whole infotainment-industrial-complex since OJ! This time it's truly 24/7 for anyone who is addicted to news. Those, like myself, who think back to the previous 3 or 4 new virus strains out of E. Asia, and the normality of life with excess death rates of the same order-of-magnitude, and don't spend so much time with the infotainment, have a much different attitude.

    I am just so sick of hearing about this Kung Flu, not because I don't want advice that I don't like, but because it is being used to change the country. Every change that I've seen since the middle 1990s has been FOR THE WORSE, so that's what I expect. If people calmed the hell down, and got their eyes, ears, and minds off this for good while, I think they would see things differently.

    I'd like to read other commenters' including our host A.E.'s of course, opinions regarding this question. Why are we divided on the way to handle the Kung Flu?

    Right now, it's beautiful outside. We're going to the park (one kid's Mom has the same attitude as me, but that guy can't come today). We're going to throw the frisbee. We'll going hiking again sometime soon. Kids (least at my house) are learning in 3 hours what takes a day or two in school. Recess has been running from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours. Fresh air and vitamin D, bitchez!


    .

    * Look at Steve Sailer, an erudite guy with lots of common sense. If this were TEOTWAWKI due to this disease, I could see blogging 80% of posts about it. It's not! I could see doing a lot more blogging about the financial/economic fallout and what lies ahead due to this panic-fest, such as our Mr. Epigone here has done a few times already.

    Replies: @Talha, @Intelligent Dasein, @dfordoom, @Adam Smith, @Adam Smith

    This divide is not along the usual political lines…

    Where are we getting our widely-differing perspectives from?

    In my opinion, it’s a matter of time spent in front of the idiot plate,

    I think the idiot plate has much to do with it.
    It’s almost like the TV is a great tool for mass hypnosis or something.

    Allow me to propose another hypothesis.

    I’m sure you’re familiar with the political compass.

    Are you familiar with Bob Altemeyer?

    Could the differing perspectives be symptomatic of the divide between libertarians and authoritarian followers?

    https://www.trainingourprotectors.com/uploads/5/4/1/5/5415260/when_rwa_inherit_the_earth.pdf

    https://theauthoritarians.org/Downloads/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

    Or…

    Let’s indulge in a little superstitious esotericism for a moment…

    It seems to me that the real contagion is in the mind at the quantum level.

    Could it be Wetiko?

  148. @Audacious Epigone
    @Tor597

    If following the quarantine of Wuhan the Chinese had shut down international travel in and out of China, the rate of transmission would've been drastically reduced. That is so obvious in hindsight that it was, well, obvious enough for Donald Trump to suggest and try unsuccessfully to implement in late January, a month before a single American coronavirus death had occurred.

    Replies: @A123, @Anon, @Tor597

    If following the quarantine of Wuhan the Chinese had shut down international travel in and out of China, the rate of transmission would’ve been drastically reduced. That is so obvious in hindsight that it was, well, obvious enough for Donald Trump to suggest and try unsuccessfully to implement in late January, a month before a single American coronavirus death had occurred.

    Q: — The Senator from which state lead the charge to keep borders open?
    .

    .
    A: — New York
    ___________

    The Globalists (DNC and major media outlets) are more dangerous than WUHAN-19.

    Trump accurately stated that the CQ/AZ/ZN combo was promising. And, it was up to medical professionals whether or not to try the method.

    To protect BigPharma, the Globalist DNC/Media rolled into action to ridicule a possible cure using generic drugs. Now that this combo is proving useful, DNC Globalist credibility is further damaged.

    PEACE 😷

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  149. @Talha
    @Audacious Epigone

    This helps:
    "But psychopaths can often be seen by others as being charming and trustworthy, holding steady, normal jobs....When a psychopath engages in criminal behavior, they tend to do so in a way that minimizes risk to themselves. They will carefully plan criminal activity to ensure they don’t get caught, having contingency plans in place for every possibility...
    Sociopaths, in general, tend to be more impulsive and erratic in their behavior than their psychopath counterparts."
    https://psychcentral.com/blog/differences-between-a-psychopath-vs-sociopath/

    Obviously, one style is far more useful to a politician.

    Peace.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Keep that up, Mr. Talha, and you’ve got a huge libel suit on your hands.

    Consider yourself warned!

    – H. Clinton

    Chappaqua, NY

    • LOL: Talha
  150. Anon[544] • Disclaimer says:
    @Audacious Epigone
    @Tor597

    If following the quarantine of Wuhan the Chinese had shut down international travel in and out of China, the rate of transmission would've been drastically reduced. That is so obvious in hindsight that it was, well, obvious enough for Donald Trump to suggest and try unsuccessfully to implement in late January, a month before a single American coronavirus death had occurred.

    Replies: @A123, @Anon, @Tor597

    late January, a month before a single American Coronavirus death had occurred

    How do you know when the first American death occurred?

    CDC director Dr Robert Redfield says some flu deaths were misdiagnosed and they were actually Coronavirus deaths. Did the first death happen last year? this year? He didn’t give any date. There is still no official words from the CDC or Dr Refield as to when these deaths took place.

  151. @Audacious Epigone
    @Ron Unz

    How do the neocons expect to fund the US military if China is economically crippled? Without China's productive capacity, consumer prices go up and treasury demand goes down.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    How do the neocons expect to fund the US military if China is economically crippled? Without China’s productive capacity, consumer prices go up and treasury demand goes down.

    Look, major elements of the Neocons have been shrieking for years about the terrible danger of China and the need to block its rising power. I read it almost every day in my major newspapers and I’d assume its ubiquitous on FoxNews.

    The problem for them is that China’s economy is now considerably larger than that of the US, and China dominates many crucial areas of leading technology like 5G. China’s military is far too strong for any attack, especially given their carrier-killer missiles. So the only possible weapon they had available was a biowarfare attack.

    As I’ve emphasized, the virus appeared in Wuhan just after 300 American military officers had visited the city. What would Americans think if 300 PRC officers had visited Chicago and soon afterwards a mysterious, deadly plague broke out?

    It seemed quite likely that the Coronavirus would spread through China as hundreds of millions traveled during Lunar New Year, and become permanently endemic and uncontrollable, devasting the Chinese economy and possibly causing the collapse of their political system. America would then gain enormous advantages and China would be helpless to resist.

    Instead, China launched the most astonishing public health measures in human history, locking down 700 million people and successfully stamping out the disease. Meanwhile, America’s totally lazy and incompetent government ignored the problem, thereby probably condemning our own country to suffer the fate that (quite possibly) the Deep State Neocons had intended for China.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz

    Goodness gracious, Chicken Little! The only thing that's being condemned is the American small business economy and any semblance of a free market left.

    Do you think half 1.4 billion Chinese people would have died if they had not been locked down like dogs in kennels? It doesn't work like that. As the ID doc told my doctor friend, about everyone's gonna get this thing, just like I don't know many people who've never gotten a cold. No, I'm not comparing it to a cold, but it's already mutating to something less deadly. It would not have wiped out a big swath of China.

    Secondly, I don't think you get the Neocons. They don't particularly care about the American economy (vs, China's). They make their money off of Big-Gov and the MIC.They just want to keep a military presence in the Middle East to support Israel (any war will do the trick there), and, yes, they want America's military to remain number one so it can be their plaything. How is this virus going to help them again? Do they really want all-out war?

    I'm not sure why you consider yourself so knowledgeable on China and the Chinese government. John Derbyshire is a guy I would listen to in these matters, as opposed to, say, Godfree Roberts. Spend 10 minutes to watch and listen to LaoWhy86:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFCcSI0pU

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    , @A123
    @Ron Unz


    The problem for them is that China’s economy is now considerably larger than that of the US, and China dominates many crucial areas of leading technology like 5G.
     
    The problem is that anti-American, SJW Globalists hollowed out raw material production (e.g. Rare Earths) and manufacturing in the U.S.

    China engaged in unscrupulous activity such as dumping and IP theft, accelerating the problem.
    ____

    Both of these issues are being successfully addressed on the diplomatic & economic front. The Trump administration made huge gains via USMCA and "Phase 1" negotions, so there is 0% chance of an officially sanctioned attack.


    China’s military is far too strong for any attack, especially given their carrier-killer missiles. So the only possible weapon they had available was a biowarfare attack.
     
    This is where the scenario breaks down.

    As multiple voices have pointed out, COVID-19 impact is not controlled by the deployment. It is controlled by the response, and 1-2 weeks in response timing radically changes the outcome.

    Both bio-WMD and nuclear-WMD are strategic arms. What happens if:

    -- China experiences massive casualties?
    -- And, the CCP believes the source is a U.S. Lab?

    It could start WW III, "The Last War", a total forces nuclear exchange.
    ___

    Hillary and her SJW Globalist comrades are arrogant and vicious. However, they are also bullies. They like to pick on those who are much weaker (e.g. Libya). Using strategic weapons against a nation that can fight back is well outside the profile for bullying and abuse of authority.

    Also, bullies do not intentionally give up control. COVID-19 itself is unpredictable, and the national response to the pandemic is also unpredictable.

    I can understand believing that the SJW Globalist Deep State is capable of an illegal "black ops mission" outside of the chain of command. However, the plans of villains at some level make sense to the villans. Within the bully-villains' frame of reference, there are many alternate "missions" that would be lower risk and higher reward.

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @Ron Unz

    Interesting. Relying on the putatively rational calculations on the part of bloodthirsty neocons is a shaky thing to stake an argument on, I admit.

  152. @Ron Unz
    @Audacious Epigone


    How do the neocons expect to fund the US military if China is economically crippled? Without China’s productive capacity, consumer prices go up and treasury demand goes down.
     
    Look, major elements of the Neocons have been shrieking for years about the terrible danger of China and the need to block its rising power. I read it almost every day in my major newspapers and I'd assume its ubiquitous on FoxNews.

    The problem for them is that China's economy is now considerably larger than that of the US, and China dominates many crucial areas of leading technology like 5G. China's military is far too strong for any attack, especially given their carrier-killer missiles. So the only possible weapon they had available was a biowarfare attack.

    As I've emphasized, the virus appeared in Wuhan just after 300 American military officers had visited the city. What would Americans think if 300 PRC officers had visited Chicago and soon afterwards a mysterious, deadly plague broke out?

    It seemed quite likely that the Coronavirus would spread through China as hundreds of millions traveled during Lunar New Year, and become permanently endemic and uncontrollable, devasting the Chinese economy and possibly causing the collapse of their political system. America would then gain enormous advantages and China would be helpless to resist.

    Instead, China launched the most astonishing public health measures in human history, locking down 700 million people and successfully stamping out the disease. Meanwhile, America's totally lazy and incompetent government ignored the problem, thereby probably condemning our own country to suffer the fate that (quite possibly) the Deep State Neocons had intended for China.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @A123, @Audacious Epigone

    Goodness gracious, Chicken Little! The only thing that’s being condemned is the American small business economy and any semblance of a free market left.

    Do you think half 1.4 billion Chinese people would have died if they had not been locked down like dogs in kennels? It doesn’t work like that. As the ID doc told my doctor friend, about everyone’s gonna get this thing, just like I don’t know many people who’ve never gotten a cold. No, I’m not comparing it to a cold, but it’s already mutating to something less deadly. It would not have wiped out a big swath of China.

    Secondly, I don’t think you get the Neocons. They don’t particularly care about the American economy (vs, China’s). They make their money off of Big-Gov and the MIC.They just want to keep a military presence in the Middle East to support Israel (any war will do the trick there), and, yes, they want America’s military to remain number one so it can be their plaything. How is this virus going to help them again? Do they really want all-out war?

    I’m not sure why you consider yourself so knowledgeable on China and the Chinese government. John Derbyshire is a guy I would listen to in these matters, as opposed to, say, Godfree Roberts. Spend 10 minutes to watch and listen to LaoWhy86:

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Do you think half 1.4 billion Chinese people would have died if they had not been locked down like dogs in kennels?
     
    Well, all the experts including those advising Brilliant Boris Johnson agreed that if it uncontrollably swept through a country, 60-70% would get infected. When a mysterious, extremely contagious disease appears from nowhere in a leading transport hub right before hundreds of millions of Chinese are travelling for Lunar New Year, that might have seemed like a pretty good bet.

    So let's assume a billion infected Chinese, maybe less when you consider the rural areas. That's obviously enough to totally overwhelm their health care system, leading to maybe 5% deaths or something in the tens of millions. The result might easily have been the destruction of the Chinese economy and the collapse of China's political system, both outcomes greatly desired by the Deep State Neocons.

    I’m not sure why you consider yourself so knowledgeable on China and the Chinese government. John Derbyshire is a guy I would listen to in these matters, as opposed to, say, Godfree Roberts.
     
    Speaking very frankly, neither Derbyshire nor Roberts have much credibility on China matters to me, for essentially the same reason, namely they're just ideologues. Also, Derb is scared of his own shadow on "touchy" issues, so bashing China in a foolish way makes him feel brave.

    Look, you're just some random rightwinger who hangs around my website spouting off nonsense, but I've been studying China for over 40(!) years, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of that country. I even think it's reasonably likely that I was the individual who persuaded The Economist to add an Asia Section back 35 years ago. You might want to read some of the major articles I've published about China over the years, then perhaps reassess your ignorant opinion.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-long-decline-of-the-london-economist/

    Replies: @Yee, @Twinkie, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman

  153. @Ron Unz
    @Audacious Epigone


    How do the neocons expect to fund the US military if China is economically crippled? Without China’s productive capacity, consumer prices go up and treasury demand goes down.
     
    Look, major elements of the Neocons have been shrieking for years about the terrible danger of China and the need to block its rising power. I read it almost every day in my major newspapers and I'd assume its ubiquitous on FoxNews.

    The problem for them is that China's economy is now considerably larger than that of the US, and China dominates many crucial areas of leading technology like 5G. China's military is far too strong for any attack, especially given their carrier-killer missiles. So the only possible weapon they had available was a biowarfare attack.

    As I've emphasized, the virus appeared in Wuhan just after 300 American military officers had visited the city. What would Americans think if 300 PRC officers had visited Chicago and soon afterwards a mysterious, deadly plague broke out?

    It seemed quite likely that the Coronavirus would spread through China as hundreds of millions traveled during Lunar New Year, and become permanently endemic and uncontrollable, devasting the Chinese economy and possibly causing the collapse of their political system. America would then gain enormous advantages and China would be helpless to resist.

    Instead, China launched the most astonishing public health measures in human history, locking down 700 million people and successfully stamping out the disease. Meanwhile, America's totally lazy and incompetent government ignored the problem, thereby probably condemning our own country to suffer the fate that (quite possibly) the Deep State Neocons had intended for China.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @A123, @Audacious Epigone

    The problem for them is that China’s economy is now considerably larger than that of the US, and China dominates many crucial areas of leading technology like 5G.

    The problem is that anti-American, SJW Globalists hollowed out raw material production (e.g. Rare Earths) and manufacturing in the U.S.

    China engaged in unscrupulous activity such as dumping and IP theft, accelerating the problem.
    ____

    Both of these issues are being successfully addressed on the diplomatic & economic front. The Trump administration made huge gains via USMCA and “Phase 1” negotions, so there is 0% chance of an officially sanctioned attack.

    China’s military is far too strong for any attack, especially given their carrier-killer missiles. So the only possible weapon they had available was a biowarfare attack.

    This is where the scenario breaks down.

    As multiple voices have pointed out, COVID-19 impact is not controlled by the deployment. It is controlled by the response, and 1-2 weeks in response timing radically changes the outcome.

    Both bio-WMD and nuclear-WMD are strategic arms. What happens if:

    — China experiences massive casualties?
    — And, the CCP believes the source is a U.S. Lab?

    It could start WW III, “The Last War”, a total forces nuclear exchange.
    ___

    Hillary and her SJW Globalist comrades are arrogant and vicious. However, they are also bullies. They like to pick on those who are much weaker (e.g. Libya). Using strategic weapons against a nation that can fight back is well outside the profile for bullying and abuse of authority.

    Also, bullies do not intentionally give up control. COVID-19 itself is unpredictable, and the national response to the pandemic is also unpredictable.

    I can understand believing that the SJW Globalist Deep State is capable of an illegal “black ops mission” outside of the chain of command. However, the plans of villains at some level make sense to the villans. Within the bully-villains’ frame of reference, there are many alternate “missions” that would be lower risk and higher reward.

    PEACE 😷

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @A123


    Hillary and her SJW Globalist comrades are arrogant and vicious. However, they are also bullies. They like to pick on those who are much weaker (e.g. Libya). Using strategic weapons against a nation that can fight back is well outside the profile for bullying and abuse of authority.
     
    Agreed. Although that really applies to the whole of US foreign policy since 1945. The US only fights wars against enemies that can't fight back effectively. Or at least, the US only fights wars against enemies that it believes can't fight back effectively. The US got a nasty surprise in Vietnam.

    In fact US foreign policy for most of US history has been based on picking fights with weak opponents (such as Spain in 1898). Or provoking much weaker opponents (such as Japan). After the War of 1812 the US had no wish to fight a strong opponent.

    US foreign policy has always been the policy of a schoolyard bully.
  154. @Ron Unz
    @Audacious Epigone


    How do the neocons expect to fund the US military if China is economically crippled? Without China’s productive capacity, consumer prices go up and treasury demand goes down.
     
    Look, major elements of the Neocons have been shrieking for years about the terrible danger of China and the need to block its rising power. I read it almost every day in my major newspapers and I'd assume its ubiquitous on FoxNews.

    The problem for them is that China's economy is now considerably larger than that of the US, and China dominates many crucial areas of leading technology like 5G. China's military is far too strong for any attack, especially given their carrier-killer missiles. So the only possible weapon they had available was a biowarfare attack.

    As I've emphasized, the virus appeared in Wuhan just after 300 American military officers had visited the city. What would Americans think if 300 PRC officers had visited Chicago and soon afterwards a mysterious, deadly plague broke out?

    It seemed quite likely that the Coronavirus would spread through China as hundreds of millions traveled during Lunar New Year, and become permanently endemic and uncontrollable, devasting the Chinese economy and possibly causing the collapse of their political system. America would then gain enormous advantages and China would be helpless to resist.

    Instead, China launched the most astonishing public health measures in human history, locking down 700 million people and successfully stamping out the disease. Meanwhile, America's totally lazy and incompetent government ignored the problem, thereby probably condemning our own country to suffer the fate that (quite possibly) the Deep State Neocons had intended for China.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @A123, @Audacious Epigone

    Interesting. Relying on the putatively rational calculations on the part of bloodthirsty neocons is a shaky thing to stake an argument on, I admit.

  155. @Tor597
    @Audacious Epigone

    What exactly did China do that was not transparent? A lot of right wing pundits are saying that China tried to cover up their true stats and really millions of Chinese are dead.

    The truth is, what China experienced is exactly what you see in every other country. The true number of infected was a lot higher, but there was lack of testing in the beginning. Also there is confusion on how to classify + cases or deaths since so many are classified based on symptoms alone or have multiple conditions. This is exactly what you see in Italy and other nations, but there is no mass hysteria against Italy.

    In fact, it is America that has been the least transparent of all countries. This is one if the reasons to be suspicious of American culpability. What is America trying to hide? Keep in mind that China probably saw this as a bio attack and not a natural disaster.

    As far as China hiding their secret cure, that just says more about yourself than China. China has been very transparent on what they have tried and what works. It was China that first started Chloroquine. Meanwhile so many alt fighters want to say it was a French guy who invented this miracle cure.

    A big reason you think there is a big miracle cure China is using or others think millions died is because of American cope. Americans can't fathom another country it used to assemble toys could be more competent than itself. So the response is a lot of whining about how they didn't tell us it was going to be more than the flu!

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone, @dfordoom

    A big reason you think there is a big miracle cure China is using or others think millions died is because of American cope. Americans can’t fathom another country it used to assemble toys could be more competent than itself. So the response is a lot of whining about how they didn’t tell us it was going to be more than the flu!

    Yep.

  156. @A123
    @Ron Unz


    The problem for them is that China’s economy is now considerably larger than that of the US, and China dominates many crucial areas of leading technology like 5G.
     
    The problem is that anti-American, SJW Globalists hollowed out raw material production (e.g. Rare Earths) and manufacturing in the U.S.

    China engaged in unscrupulous activity such as dumping and IP theft, accelerating the problem.
    ____

    Both of these issues are being successfully addressed on the diplomatic & economic front. The Trump administration made huge gains via USMCA and "Phase 1" negotions, so there is 0% chance of an officially sanctioned attack.


    China’s military is far too strong for any attack, especially given their carrier-killer missiles. So the only possible weapon they had available was a biowarfare attack.
     
    This is where the scenario breaks down.

    As multiple voices have pointed out, COVID-19 impact is not controlled by the deployment. It is controlled by the response, and 1-2 weeks in response timing radically changes the outcome.

    Both bio-WMD and nuclear-WMD are strategic arms. What happens if:

    -- China experiences massive casualties?
    -- And, the CCP believes the source is a U.S. Lab?

    It could start WW III, "The Last War", a total forces nuclear exchange.
    ___

    Hillary and her SJW Globalist comrades are arrogant and vicious. However, they are also bullies. They like to pick on those who are much weaker (e.g. Libya). Using strategic weapons against a nation that can fight back is well outside the profile for bullying and abuse of authority.

    Also, bullies do not intentionally give up control. COVID-19 itself is unpredictable, and the national response to the pandemic is also unpredictable.

    I can understand believing that the SJW Globalist Deep State is capable of an illegal "black ops mission" outside of the chain of command. However, the plans of villains at some level make sense to the villans. Within the bully-villains' frame of reference, there are many alternate "missions" that would be lower risk and higher reward.

    PEACE 😷

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Hillary and her SJW Globalist comrades are arrogant and vicious. However, they are also bullies. They like to pick on those who are much weaker (e.g. Libya). Using strategic weapons against a nation that can fight back is well outside the profile for bullying and abuse of authority.

    Agreed. Although that really applies to the whole of US foreign policy since 1945. The US only fights wars against enemies that can’t fight back effectively. Or at least, the US only fights wars against enemies that it believes can’t fight back effectively. The US got a nasty surprise in Vietnam.

    In fact US foreign policy for most of US history has been based on picking fights with weak opponents (such as Spain in 1898). Or provoking much weaker opponents (such as Japan). After the War of 1812 the US had no wish to fight a strong opponent.

    US foreign policy has always been the policy of a schoolyard bully.

  157. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz

    Goodness gracious, Chicken Little! The only thing that's being condemned is the American small business economy and any semblance of a free market left.

    Do you think half 1.4 billion Chinese people would have died if they had not been locked down like dogs in kennels? It doesn't work like that. As the ID doc told my doctor friend, about everyone's gonna get this thing, just like I don't know many people who've never gotten a cold. No, I'm not comparing it to a cold, but it's already mutating to something less deadly. It would not have wiped out a big swath of China.

    Secondly, I don't think you get the Neocons. They don't particularly care about the American economy (vs, China's). They make their money off of Big-Gov and the MIC.They just want to keep a military presence in the Middle East to support Israel (any war will do the trick there), and, yes, they want America's military to remain number one so it can be their plaything. How is this virus going to help them again? Do they really want all-out war?

    I'm not sure why you consider yourself so knowledgeable on China and the Chinese government. John Derbyshire is a guy I would listen to in these matters, as opposed to, say, Godfree Roberts. Spend 10 minutes to watch and listen to LaoWhy86:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFCcSI0pU

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    Do you think half 1.4 billion Chinese people would have died if they had not been locked down like dogs in kennels?

    Well, all the experts including those advising Brilliant Boris Johnson agreed that if it uncontrollably swept through a country, 60-70% would get infected. When a mysterious, extremely contagious disease appears from nowhere in a leading transport hub right before hundreds of millions of Chinese are travelling for Lunar New Year, that might have seemed like a pretty good bet.

    So let’s assume a billion infected Chinese, maybe less when you consider the rural areas. That’s obviously enough to totally overwhelm their health care system, leading to maybe 5% deaths or something in the tens of millions. The result might easily have been the destruction of the Chinese economy and the collapse of China’s political system, both outcomes greatly desired by the Deep State Neocons.

    I’m not sure why you consider yourself so knowledgeable on China and the Chinese government. John Derbyshire is a guy I would listen to in these matters, as opposed to, say, Godfree Roberts.

    Speaking very frankly, neither Derbyshire nor Roberts have much credibility on China matters to me, for essentially the same reason, namely they’re just ideologues. Also, Derb is scared of his own shadow on “touchy” issues, so bashing China in a foolish way makes him feel brave.

    Look, you’re just some random rightwinger who hangs around my website spouting off nonsense, but I’ve been studying China for over 40(!) years, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of that country. I even think it’s reasonably likely that I was the individual who persuaded The Economist to add an Asia Section back 35 years ago. You might want to read some of the major articles I’ve published about China over the years, then perhaps reassess your ignorant opinion.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-long-decline-of-the-london-economist/

    • Replies: @Yee
    @Ron Unz

    ‘’I’ve been studying China for over 40(!) years, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of that country.‘’

    You're right and Chinese forumers agreed. A couple of years ago, someone introduced your "social darwinism" article to a Chinese forum, commenters joked that we should kill you because you know too much...

    As for the US goverment's response to the COVID-19, I don't think it's incompetence, but over-confidence at their bio-chemistry technology. They were very sure that the virus only works on Asians, so they would be safe. Intelligence of NATO countries probably in the know too.

    This is the only way to explain why ALL Western countries were unprepared. Incompetence can't explain it all. Hongkong has the most incompetence government in the developed world, yet they have handled this much better.

    BTY, I also think the mysterious pneumonia blamed on Vaping last summer could have been a trail to confirm it only has limited effect to American populace.

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @dfordoom

    , @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    Speaking very frankly, neither Derbyshire nor Roberts have much credibility on China matters to me, for essentially the same reason, namely they’re just ideologues.
     
    Mr. Derbyshire on China is much like Jared Taylor on Japan - both men are experienced in their respective expatriate cultures. Their “micro” observations are often good and their critiques of the erstwhile hosts are worthwhile, but they are often led astray by their ideologies and posturing, especially on larger issues, with which they are unfamiliar.

    It’s for the same reasons that you should be skeptical when Western expatriate English teachers in Asia opine on, say, deeper local political, economic, or sociological topics. Their command of the local languages and some understanding of the cultures, which are incomprehensible to the Western public at large, give them an undue and inflated sense of expertise with Western audiences, when in fact, their experiences are specific and limited, rather than deep and expert.

    Just to be clear, I’m not saying that they mean to deceive. The problem is that actual experts on these societies are very few in number in the West, so anyone with more than shallow knowledge of them ends up getting more attention as an “expert” than he should. This was also common during the Cold War despite the USG investing a lot of resources into understanding Russia. Curiously, expertise on Germany and, to a lesser extent, Japan during World War II was relatively widespread and high quality.

    Also, Derb is scared of his own shadow on “touchy” issues
     
    Are you referring to his views on Jews?

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz

    Talk aboutcher spouting of nonsense, where'd you get that 5% fatality number, Mr. Unz? The denominator of the fatality rate may not even be known to an order-of-magnitude! 5% of infected people will not die. We'll find this out soon enough (maybe a year or two).

    As for knowledge of China, I don't care how much you've read over the last 40 years, being there and talking frankly to lots of Chinese people is another story. I don't know much of the Chinese language, and I doubt you do either. It's ridiculously hard as far reading/writing, and I respect Mr. Derbyshire greatly for learning it.

    You perhaps think John Derbyshire is an ideologue because he uses the term ChiComs. Yes, that's old fashioned and I don't think it really applies now. The government there will be hard-core totalitarians as much as the people let them be, but they are smart enough to not be real Communists after its terrible history for 30-odd years there. That's why they wouldn't want Godfree Roberts in their country, his parents having been American hard-core Communists in China (per Roberts' bio), explaining why Mr. Roberts resides in Thailand instead.

    I've been to China just under a dozen times, once for 6 weeks. Talking frankly to people whose Grandpas starved to death during 1959-61, people who were greatly affected by fallout from Tiananmen square, people who grew up at the end of hard-core Communism (when rice was rationed still - 1980 and America sent them corn - feed corn, beggars can't be choosers), and lately, people who come here as visiting scholars, taking full advantage of America's university amenities (and kind of arrogantly, at that) is how I've learned about the place.* You will not truly learn about the country from old newspaper articles, as per Godfree Roberts' excerpting the Communist Party Times.** It'd be like the Chinese people learning about America from the NY Times or The Economist. That doesn't work at all.




    .

    * Oh, and visiting a lean-and-mean plant that made face masks and other nonwoven material, which taught me even more about Chinese Q/A or lack thereof, including helping load a shipping container full of face masks, was a great experience. (The plant owner didn't even know how to say "thanks" - no English at all, so she depended totally on the saleswoman - that was ... interesting.)

    ** Sometimes I can't help but think he's some kind of joke, as on Seinfeld.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz

    I agree with you that Mr. Derbyshire doesn't want to get into that "touchy" issue, as you courageously do, I gotta admit. However, his bashing of what needs bashing about China is NOT some psychological thing related to that (you sound like Lance Welton there). He has lived in the place long ago, and he keeps up via his knowledge of the language, and more importantly, his wife.

    John Derbyshire has a love for the place, in some sense, even giving more credit to the subject of The Man who Loved China, a British Commie, than I do. He's just educating people with a lot of realism about China RATHER THAN idealism, as you claim. You don't get the full picture by reading newspaper articles, and you don't get the full picture just from economic numbers (wow, look at the GDP now!).

    Get out and visit the place, Ron, after this Kung Flu infotainment panic-fest has passed, and before things get really crappy between our 2 countries. A visa costing ~ $300 (including the agency, as there's no same-day service anymore), a thousand bucks for a plane ticket direct SFO-PVG round-trip, and 10,000 RMB* will buy a great trip and learning experience. Take a whole month. I think you'd enjoy learning about this most important of countries in these times, and then be better suited to inform others.**

    .

    * You're smart enough to know probably, but DON'T use those Travelex places for changing money, unless it's just for a few bucks to get you into town. They are a rip-off of something like 17% coming and going. Use a debit or credit card at the money machines, but tell your bank before the trip, as their anti-theft software may lock you out.

    ** About the trip: I talked to a gentleman in the back of a 747 about 10 years ago, while we were up stretching our legs. He had a nice business going over there, and things were really cheap in China then (the exchange rate doesn't really tell you everything). "Hey, if you are doing that well, why aren't you sitting up there?". I pointed to 1st class. "I just can't do it. For that money, I can purchase a girlfriend over there for a couple of months." The guy was about 65 y/o. I had no argument with that one! Just sayin' ...

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz

    Oh, I meant to add: I did read your social darwinism article and liked it a lot. That's about long-term history, which I admit to not knowing that much about. Most of the history of China that I've read is about the last century, including 10 books about the Cultural Revolution - the latter is very relevant to 2020 America, though it wasn't even 10 years back when I read all the books.

    No matter the disagreement here (on China and the Kung Flu), thanks for the great-working website and the opportunity for me to write in with "random rightwing nonsense", haha!

  158. @res
    @Twinkie

    In other words, a sociopath. Or would con man be a better way to put it?

    Replies: @Talha, @nebulafox, @Twinkie

    The requirements needed to succeed in American politics increasingly select for sociopathy: they are the ones that wouldn’t care about the stresses that the 24/7 modern media treatment would have on them and those close to them.

    And real, no kidding sociopaths, even the high-functioning ones, tend to be extremely bad at long-term thinking. It’s not hard to draw some connections between that and the behavior of our elites, economic, political, and media.

  159. neither Derbyshire nor Roberts have much credibility on China matters to me, for essentially the same reason, namely they’re just ideologues.

    Of the two, I have to admit being I quite curious as to what it would be like to live inside Mr. Robert’s head and see the world through his eyes:

    Could be fun for a day or two.

    I remember asking him if there was any mistake in policy or a rectification China could make in any of its policies that he could point out – just one:
    https://www.unz.com/article/china-and-the-uyghurs/?showcomments#comment-2759846

    A question that he simply sidestepped, which led me to the conclusion that I was mistaken in thinking I was having a political discussion when it was actually a theological one.🤨

    Peace.

  160. Hail says: • Website
    @Talha
    @dfordoom

    "Get in line for your Solyent Green processing, Boomer!"

    On a serious note, I have no clue why a society would not want to benefit from the wisdom of those that have had the most experience with life. I mean, if you are going to give me a choice between stripping away the voting rights of; 1) a 75 year old that may have fought in a war, raised a family including grandchildren, has possibly retired at his job after having managed others or even having built his own business, and has decades of volunteering in his community or 2) and 25 year old, say, swimsuit model...well...sorry Becky, hand over your card.

    Peace.

    Replies: @iffen, @Hail

    I am thinking your comment is a form of subtle trolling.

    Honor older people, yes. You will find none disagreeing in good faith. Certainly not me.

    Aren’t you a Muslim immigrant in the US and a kind of resident proselytizer around here? If so, perhaps the idea here is that Islam is superior to our silly and backwards European-Christian ways and that you can instruct us on how to live better. A gentle lecture on how civilized people, like Muslims (of course!), honor the old might get through. Maybe we can yet join the ranks of civilized mankind, we silly white people,and might yet make something of ourselves, under the banner of Allah. (I guess that’s the ‘spiel.’)

    But there is a real issue at hand, which Intelligent Dasein raised, in his usual style. Maybe I didn’t do a good job at expanding on it. It’s a tricky problem.

    Consider this (if anyone is still reading this, late-thread reply): By analogy, what if we said, “We honor our older people so much that we are never going to ask them to retire from their jobs and we will continue to allow them draw large salaries and occupy the best company positions until their deaths. Younger people will have to wait. It’s only fair! Honor the old!”

    In fact, there are many societies which have this exact problem; young people unable to make headway, as the best positions are overly long occupied by older career people. One of the results of this lockout is thought to be a cratering birthrate, disrupted family formation, and other problems. This problem has led to mandatory-retirement ages.

    There are not easy answers here.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Hail


    under the banner of Allah.
     
    I don’t have a problem being under the banner of God, I have a problem being under the banner of Mohammed.
    , @Talha
    @Hail


    Aren’t you a Muslim immigrant in the US and a kind of resident proselytizer around here?
     
    Yeah.

    (I guess that’s the ‘spiel.’)
     
    No, but feel free to interpret whatever you want into my words, not my problem.

    There are not easy answers here.
     
    I didn’t say there are easy answers here. I was saying that I have more confidence in an older guy with experience as far as voting is concerned than a young person without it. Why that seems controversial, I don’t know.

    Asking someone to retire at any age is a decision that a business makes, this is not the same as stripping them of voting rights.

    Peace.
  161. Yee says:
    @Ron Unz
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Do you think half 1.4 billion Chinese people would have died if they had not been locked down like dogs in kennels?
     
    Well, all the experts including those advising Brilliant Boris Johnson agreed that if it uncontrollably swept through a country, 60-70% would get infected. When a mysterious, extremely contagious disease appears from nowhere in a leading transport hub right before hundreds of millions of Chinese are travelling for Lunar New Year, that might have seemed like a pretty good bet.

    So let's assume a billion infected Chinese, maybe less when you consider the rural areas. That's obviously enough to totally overwhelm their health care system, leading to maybe 5% deaths or something in the tens of millions. The result might easily have been the destruction of the Chinese economy and the collapse of China's political system, both outcomes greatly desired by the Deep State Neocons.

    I’m not sure why you consider yourself so knowledgeable on China and the Chinese government. John Derbyshire is a guy I would listen to in these matters, as opposed to, say, Godfree Roberts.
     
    Speaking very frankly, neither Derbyshire nor Roberts have much credibility on China matters to me, for essentially the same reason, namely they're just ideologues. Also, Derb is scared of his own shadow on "touchy" issues, so bashing China in a foolish way makes him feel brave.

    Look, you're just some random rightwinger who hangs around my website spouting off nonsense, but I've been studying China for over 40(!) years, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of that country. I even think it's reasonably likely that I was the individual who persuaded The Economist to add an Asia Section back 35 years ago. You might want to read some of the major articles I've published about China over the years, then perhaps reassess your ignorant opinion.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-long-decline-of-the-london-economist/

    Replies: @Yee, @Twinkie, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman

    ‘’I’ve been studying China for over 40(!) years, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of that country.‘’

    You’re right and Chinese forumers agreed. A couple of years ago, someone introduced your “social darwinism” article to a Chinese forum, commenters joked that we should kill you because you know too much…

    As for the US goverment’s response to the COVID-19, I don’t think it’s incompetence, but over-confidence at their bio-chemistry technology. They were very sure that the virus only works on Asians, so they would be safe. Intelligence of NATO countries probably in the know too.

    This is the only way to explain why ALL Western countries were unprepared. Incompetence can’t explain it all. Hongkong has the most incompetence government in the developed world, yet they have handled this much better.

    BTY, I also think the mysterious pneumonia blamed on Vaping last summer could have been a trail to confirm it only has limited effect to American populace.

    • Thanks: Ron Unz
    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Yee


    As for the US goverment’s response to the COVID-19, I don’t think it’s incompetence, but over-confidence at their bio-chemistry technology. They were very sure that the virus only works on Asians, so they would be safe. Intelligence of NATO countries probably in the know too.

    This is the only way to explain why ALL Western countries were unprepared. Incompetence can’t explain it all. Hongkong has the most incompetence government in the developed world, yet they have handled this much better.
     
    Well, early on I was quite suspicious that the Coronavirus might be a racially-targeted bioweapon, but that's clearly not the case. In particular, since Iran and especially its political elites were hit so early and so hard, that wouldn't make sense.

    If it was indeed a bioweapon attack against China (and Iran), I very much doubt that top Western elites were aware of it. The incredibly stupid and ignorant statements by Trump, Boris Johnson, and lots of others pretty much absolve them. For example, Brilliant Boris Johnson publicly planned to kill off a million or two million British until someone explained the numbers to him. So I'd strongly suspect it was the Deep State Neocons.

    I think the totally incompetent behavior of Trump and the other Western elites is much more easily explained by stupidity and arrogance. Moreover, as I said above:

    Also don’t forget, after SARS broke out in East Asia in the early-2000s, America took little action, yet it never spread here. So Deep State Neocons could have (foolishly) believed that a bioweapon attack on China (and Iran) would also not produce any substantial US blowback.
     

    Replies: @Anon

    , @dfordoom
    @Yee


    This is the only way to explain why ALL Western countries were unprepared. Incompetence can’t explain it all.
     
    You're underestimating western incompetence. Incompetence is one field in which the Chinese will never be able to equal the West.

    And you will never be able to match our magical formula of extreme incompetence combined with gross arrogance.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  162. @res
    @Twinkie

    In other words, a sociopath. Or would con man be a better way to put it?

    Replies: @Talha, @nebulafox, @Twinkie

    Very disciplined. Someone who has patriotic motives, is willing to use hard methods, but has the ability and willingness to be charming and soothing on TV.

    I know I am asking for the moon here. 2 and 3 are not uncommon – the trick is finding someone who has 1 as well. That’s hard, but – for all our sakes – not impossible.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Twinkie

    One trouble is you don't necessarily know when someone has 1) or not.

    I suppose it's possible to guess based on prior conduct, of course, but I think it might still be a gamble.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @res
    @Twinkie

    That's the optimistic take. How likely do you think it is that someone who has 1 manages to make it through a gauntlet of those who don't in the succession of political contests typically needed to make it to a role of significance?

  163. @Hail
    @Talha

    I am thinking your comment is a form of subtle trolling.

    Honor older people, yes. You will find none disagreeing in good faith. Certainly not me.

    Aren't you a Muslim immigrant in the US and a kind of resident proselytizer around here? If so, perhaps the idea here is that Islam is superior to our silly and backwards European-Christian ways and that you can instruct us on how to live better. A gentle lecture on how civilized people, like Muslims (of course!), honor the old might get through. Maybe we can yet join the ranks of civilized mankind, we silly white people,and might yet make something of ourselves, under the banner of Allah. (I guess that's the 'spiel.')

    But there is a real issue at hand, which Intelligent Dasein raised, in his usual style. Maybe I didn't do a good job at expanding on it. It's a tricky problem.

    Consider this (if anyone is still reading this, late-thread reply): By analogy, what if we said, "We honor our older people so much that we are never going to ask them to retire from their jobs and we will continue to allow them draw large salaries and occupy the best company positions until their deaths. Younger people will have to wait. It's only fair! Honor the old!"

    In fact, there are many societies which have this exact problem; young people unable to make headway, as the best positions are overly long occupied by older career people. One of the results of this lockout is thought to be a cratering birthrate, disrupted family formation, and other problems. This problem has led to mandatory-retirement ages.

    There are not easy answers here.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Talha

    under the banner of Allah.

    I don’t have a problem being under the banner of God, I have a problem being under the banner of Mohammed.

  164. @Hail
    @Talha

    I am thinking your comment is a form of subtle trolling.

    Honor older people, yes. You will find none disagreeing in good faith. Certainly not me.

    Aren't you a Muslim immigrant in the US and a kind of resident proselytizer around here? If so, perhaps the idea here is that Islam is superior to our silly and backwards European-Christian ways and that you can instruct us on how to live better. A gentle lecture on how civilized people, like Muslims (of course!), honor the old might get through. Maybe we can yet join the ranks of civilized mankind, we silly white people,and might yet make something of ourselves, under the banner of Allah. (I guess that's the 'spiel.')

    But there is a real issue at hand, which Intelligent Dasein raised, in his usual style. Maybe I didn't do a good job at expanding on it. It's a tricky problem.

    Consider this (if anyone is still reading this, late-thread reply): By analogy, what if we said, "We honor our older people so much that we are never going to ask them to retire from their jobs and we will continue to allow them draw large salaries and occupy the best company positions until their deaths. Younger people will have to wait. It's only fair! Honor the old!"

    In fact, there are many societies which have this exact problem; young people unable to make headway, as the best positions are overly long occupied by older career people. One of the results of this lockout is thought to be a cratering birthrate, disrupted family formation, and other problems. This problem has led to mandatory-retirement ages.

    There are not easy answers here.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Talha

    Aren’t you a Muslim immigrant in the US and a kind of resident proselytizer around here?

    Yeah.

    (I guess that’s the ‘spiel.’)

    No, but feel free to interpret whatever you want into my words, not my problem.

    There are not easy answers here.

    I didn’t say there are easy answers here. I was saying that I have more confidence in an older guy with experience as far as voting is concerned than a young person without it. Why that seems controversial, I don’t know.

    Asking someone to retire at any age is a decision that a business makes, this is not the same as stripping them of voting rights.

    Peace.

    • Agree: Yahya K.
  165. @Twinkie
    @res

    Very disciplined. Someone who has patriotic motives, is willing to use hard methods, but has the ability and willingness to be charming and soothing on TV.

    I know I am asking for the moon here. 2 and 3 are not uncommon - the trick is finding someone who has 1 as well. That’s hard, but - for all our sakes - not impossible.

    Replies: @RSDB, @res

    One trouble is you don’t necessarily know when someone has 1) or not.

    I suppose it’s possible to guess based on prior conduct, of course, but I think it might still be a gamble.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @RSDB


    I suppose it’s possible to guess based on prior conduct, of course, but I think it might still be a gamble.
     
    Ain’t nothin’ certain in life, except for the Grace of God. The best we can do is improve the odds of success.

    Replies: @RSDB

  166. @Ron Unz
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Do you think half 1.4 billion Chinese people would have died if they had not been locked down like dogs in kennels?
     
    Well, all the experts including those advising Brilliant Boris Johnson agreed that if it uncontrollably swept through a country, 60-70% would get infected. When a mysterious, extremely contagious disease appears from nowhere in a leading transport hub right before hundreds of millions of Chinese are travelling for Lunar New Year, that might have seemed like a pretty good bet.

    So let's assume a billion infected Chinese, maybe less when you consider the rural areas. That's obviously enough to totally overwhelm their health care system, leading to maybe 5% deaths or something in the tens of millions. The result might easily have been the destruction of the Chinese economy and the collapse of China's political system, both outcomes greatly desired by the Deep State Neocons.

    I’m not sure why you consider yourself so knowledgeable on China and the Chinese government. John Derbyshire is a guy I would listen to in these matters, as opposed to, say, Godfree Roberts.
     
    Speaking very frankly, neither Derbyshire nor Roberts have much credibility on China matters to me, for essentially the same reason, namely they're just ideologues. Also, Derb is scared of his own shadow on "touchy" issues, so bashing China in a foolish way makes him feel brave.

    Look, you're just some random rightwinger who hangs around my website spouting off nonsense, but I've been studying China for over 40(!) years, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of that country. I even think it's reasonably likely that I was the individual who persuaded The Economist to add an Asia Section back 35 years ago. You might want to read some of the major articles I've published about China over the years, then perhaps reassess your ignorant opinion.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-long-decline-of-the-london-economist/

    Replies: @Yee, @Twinkie, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman

    Speaking very frankly, neither Derbyshire nor Roberts have much credibility on China matters to me, for essentially the same reason, namely they’re just ideologues.

    Mr. Derbyshire on China is much like Jared Taylor on Japan – both men are experienced in their respective expatriate cultures. Their “micro” observations are often good and their critiques of the erstwhile hosts are worthwhile, but they are often led astray by their ideologies and posturing, especially on larger issues, with which they are unfamiliar.

    It’s for the same reasons that you should be skeptical when Western expatriate English teachers in Asia opine on, say, deeper local political, economic, or sociological topics. Their command of the local languages and some understanding of the cultures, which are incomprehensible to the Western public at large, give them an undue and inflated sense of expertise with Western audiences, when in fact, their experiences are specific and limited, rather than deep and expert.

    Just to be clear, I’m not saying that they mean to deceive. The problem is that actual experts on these societies are very few in number in the West, so anyone with more than shallow knowledge of them ends up getting more attention as an “expert” than he should. This was also common during the Cold War despite the USG investing a lot of resources into understanding Russia. Curiously, expertise on Germany and, to a lesser extent, Japan during World War II was relatively widespread and high quality.

    Also, Derb is scared of his own shadow on “touchy” issues

    Are you referring to his views on Jews?

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Twinkie


    Mr. Derbyshire on China is much like Jared Taylor on Japan – both men are experienced in their respective expatriate cultures. Their “micro” observations are often good and their critiques of the erstwhile hosts are worthwhile, but they are often led astray by their ideologies and posturing, especially on larger issues, with which they are unfamiliar.
     
    Yes, I agree entirely. Plus Derb often has to cater to his FoxNews-watching audience of rightwing dimwits. I remember back a decade or so ago, he used to privately complain that America was so totally messed up and China doing so well, that if he were younger, he'd permanently move back there with his family.

    These days, he's all ChiCom-this and ChiCom-that...
  167. @Audacious Epigone
    @Tor597

    If following the quarantine of Wuhan the Chinese had shut down international travel in and out of China, the rate of transmission would've been drastically reduced. That is so obvious in hindsight that it was, well, obvious enough for Donald Trump to suggest and try unsuccessfully to implement in late January, a month before a single American coronavirus death had occurred.

    Replies: @A123, @Anon, @Tor597

    Are you kidding me?

    Asia pretty much contained the virus on their end. Meanwhile the entirety of the west has failed. This is everything from the UK purposely trying to infect everyone for lol herd immunity to Spring Breakers spreading the virus because it was just the flu bro.

    So what really made this an unmanageable global pandemic was the west failing to contain it on their end and continuing to travel because they thought it only kills Asians or old people.

    Now, if you trace back Americas timeline, Trump had multiple failures in acting swiftly. Look at NY right now. He should have shut down NY before it spread like China did to Wuhan. But he chickened out and now these NYers are going to infect the rest of the country and then the world.

    • Agree: Ron Unz
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Tor597

    Asia pretty much contained the virus on their end.

    Who is kidding who now?

  168. @RSDB
    @Twinkie

    One trouble is you don't necessarily know when someone has 1) or not.

    I suppose it's possible to guess based on prior conduct, of course, but I think it might still be a gamble.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I suppose it’s possible to guess based on prior conduct, of course, but I think it might still be a gamble.

    Ain’t nothin’ certain in life, except for the Grace of God. The best we can do is improve the odds of success.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @Twinkie

    Fair enough.

    I'm just not too sure how much trust I want to give the guy with the knife in the dark and the facile on-camera personality no matter what he says he's selling. If one is reasonably lucky with strongmen one gets a Franco (who really wasn't particularly good at selling himself on TV/radio/newsreels) and if one is unlucky one gets a Hitler.

    If one is very unlucky one gets a Felsenburgh.

  169. @Twinkie
    @res

    Very disciplined. Someone who has patriotic motives, is willing to use hard methods, but has the ability and willingness to be charming and soothing on TV.

    I know I am asking for the moon here. 2 and 3 are not uncommon - the trick is finding someone who has 1 as well. That’s hard, but - for all our sakes - not impossible.

    Replies: @RSDB, @res

    That’s the optimistic take. How likely do you think it is that someone who has 1 manages to make it through a gauntlet of those who don’t in the succession of political contests typically needed to make it to a role of significance?

  170. @Ron Unz
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Do you think half 1.4 billion Chinese people would have died if they had not been locked down like dogs in kennels?
     
    Well, all the experts including those advising Brilliant Boris Johnson agreed that if it uncontrollably swept through a country, 60-70% would get infected. When a mysterious, extremely contagious disease appears from nowhere in a leading transport hub right before hundreds of millions of Chinese are travelling for Lunar New Year, that might have seemed like a pretty good bet.

    So let's assume a billion infected Chinese, maybe less when you consider the rural areas. That's obviously enough to totally overwhelm their health care system, leading to maybe 5% deaths or something in the tens of millions. The result might easily have been the destruction of the Chinese economy and the collapse of China's political system, both outcomes greatly desired by the Deep State Neocons.

    I’m not sure why you consider yourself so knowledgeable on China and the Chinese government. John Derbyshire is a guy I would listen to in these matters, as opposed to, say, Godfree Roberts.
     
    Speaking very frankly, neither Derbyshire nor Roberts have much credibility on China matters to me, for essentially the same reason, namely they're just ideologues. Also, Derb is scared of his own shadow on "touchy" issues, so bashing China in a foolish way makes him feel brave.

    Look, you're just some random rightwinger who hangs around my website spouting off nonsense, but I've been studying China for over 40(!) years, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of that country. I even think it's reasonably likely that I was the individual who persuaded The Economist to add an Asia Section back 35 years ago. You might want to read some of the major articles I've published about China over the years, then perhaps reassess your ignorant opinion.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-long-decline-of-the-london-economist/

    Replies: @Yee, @Twinkie, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman

    Talk aboutcher spouting of nonsense, where’d you get that 5% fatality number, Mr. Unz? The denominator of the fatality rate may not even be known to an order-of-magnitude! 5% of infected people will not die. We’ll find this out soon enough (maybe a year or two).

    As for knowledge of China, I don’t care how much you’ve read over the last 40 years, being there and talking frankly to lots of Chinese people is another story. I don’t know much of the Chinese language, and I doubt you do either. It’s ridiculously hard as far reading/writing, and I respect Mr. Derbyshire greatly for learning it.

    You perhaps think John Derbyshire is an ideologue because he uses the term ChiComs. Yes, that’s old fashioned and I don’t think it really applies now. The government there will be hard-core totalitarians as much as the people let them be, but they are smart enough to not be real Communists after its terrible history for 30-odd years there. That’s why they wouldn’t want Godfree Roberts in their country, his parents having been American hard-core Communists in China (per Roberts’ bio), explaining why Mr. Roberts resides in Thailand instead.

    I’ve been to China just under a dozen times, once for 6 weeks. Talking frankly to people whose Grandpas starved to death during 1959-61, people who were greatly affected by fallout from Tiananmen square, people who grew up at the end of hard-core Communism (when rice was rationed still – 1980 and America sent them corn – feed corn, beggars can’t be choosers), and lately, people who come here as visiting scholars, taking full advantage of America’s university amenities (and kind of arrogantly, at that) is how I’ve learned about the place.* You will not truly learn about the country from old newspaper articles, as per Godfree Roberts’ excerpting the Communist Party Times.** It’d be like the Chinese people learning about America from the NY Times or The Economist. That doesn’t work at all.

    .

    * Oh, and visiting a lean-and-mean plant that made face masks and other nonwoven material, which taught me even more about Chinese Q/A or lack thereof, including helping load a shipping container full of face masks, was a great experience. (The plant owner didn’t even know how to say “thanks” – no English at all, so she depended totally on the saleswoman – that was … interesting.)

    ** Sometimes I can’t help but think he’s some kind of joke, as on Seinfeld.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Talk aboutcher spouting of nonsense, where’d you get that 5% fatality number, Mr. Unz? The denominator of the fatality rate may not even be known to an order-of-magnitude! 5% of infected people will not die.
     
    Look, I'm no medical expert. But all the medical experts seem to agree that the death rate rises to around 5% once the local health system crashes and ICUs aren't available, and that does seem consistent with the sort of numbers coming out of Lombardy where that is happening. Obviously, hundreds of millions of infected Chinese over a period of a couple of months would have crashed their health system.

    Maybe all the experts are wrong, but as far as I can tell, you're just some random rightwing ranter who hangs around my website, so I'd probably tend to take their opinion over yours.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @res

  171. @Ron Unz
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Do you think half 1.4 billion Chinese people would have died if they had not been locked down like dogs in kennels?
     
    Well, all the experts including those advising Brilliant Boris Johnson agreed that if it uncontrollably swept through a country, 60-70% would get infected. When a mysterious, extremely contagious disease appears from nowhere in a leading transport hub right before hundreds of millions of Chinese are travelling for Lunar New Year, that might have seemed like a pretty good bet.

    So let's assume a billion infected Chinese, maybe less when you consider the rural areas. That's obviously enough to totally overwhelm their health care system, leading to maybe 5% deaths or something in the tens of millions. The result might easily have been the destruction of the Chinese economy and the collapse of China's political system, both outcomes greatly desired by the Deep State Neocons.

    I’m not sure why you consider yourself so knowledgeable on China and the Chinese government. John Derbyshire is a guy I would listen to in these matters, as opposed to, say, Godfree Roberts.
     
    Speaking very frankly, neither Derbyshire nor Roberts have much credibility on China matters to me, for essentially the same reason, namely they're just ideologues. Also, Derb is scared of his own shadow on "touchy" issues, so bashing China in a foolish way makes him feel brave.

    Look, you're just some random rightwinger who hangs around my website spouting off nonsense, but I've been studying China for over 40(!) years, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of that country. I even think it's reasonably likely that I was the individual who persuaded The Economist to add an Asia Section back 35 years ago. You might want to read some of the major articles I've published about China over the years, then perhaps reassess your ignorant opinion.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-long-decline-of-the-london-economist/

    Replies: @Yee, @Twinkie, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman

    I agree with you that Mr. Derbyshire doesn’t want to get into that “touchy” issue, as you courageously do, I gotta admit. However, his bashing of what needs bashing about China is NOT some psychological thing related to that (you sound like Lance Welton there). He has lived in the place long ago, and he keeps up via his knowledge of the language, and more importantly, his wife.

    John Derbyshire has a love for the place, in some sense, even giving more credit to the subject of The Man who Loved China, a British Commie, than I do. He’s just educating people with a lot of realism about China RATHER THAN idealism, as you claim. You don’t get the full picture by reading newspaper articles, and you don’t get the full picture just from economic numbers (wow, look at the GDP now!).

    Get out and visit the place, Ron, after this Kung Flu infotainment panic-fest has passed, and before things get really crappy between our 2 countries. A visa costing ~ $300 (including the agency, as there’s no same-day service anymore), a thousand bucks for a plane ticket direct SFO-PVG round-trip, and 10,000 RMB* will buy a great trip and learning experience. Take a whole month. I think you’d enjoy learning about this most important of countries in these times, and then be better suited to inform others.**

    .

    * You’re smart enough to know probably, but DON’T use those Travelex places for changing money, unless it’s just for a few bucks to get you into town. They are a rip-off of something like 17% coming and going. Use a debit or credit card at the money machines, but tell your bank before the trip, as their anti-theft software may lock you out.

    ** About the trip: I talked to a gentleman in the back of a 747 about 10 years ago, while we were up stretching our legs. He had a nice business going over there, and things were really cheap in China then (the exchange rate doesn’t really tell you everything). “Hey, if you are doing that well, why aren’t you sitting up there?”. I pointed to 1st class. “I just can’t do it. For that money, I can purchase a girlfriend over there for a couple of months.” The guy was about 65 y/o. I had no argument with that one! Just sayin’ …

  172. @Ron Unz
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Do you think half 1.4 billion Chinese people would have died if they had not been locked down like dogs in kennels?
     
    Well, all the experts including those advising Brilliant Boris Johnson agreed that if it uncontrollably swept through a country, 60-70% would get infected. When a mysterious, extremely contagious disease appears from nowhere in a leading transport hub right before hundreds of millions of Chinese are travelling for Lunar New Year, that might have seemed like a pretty good bet.

    So let's assume a billion infected Chinese, maybe less when you consider the rural areas. That's obviously enough to totally overwhelm their health care system, leading to maybe 5% deaths or something in the tens of millions. The result might easily have been the destruction of the Chinese economy and the collapse of China's political system, both outcomes greatly desired by the Deep State Neocons.

    I’m not sure why you consider yourself so knowledgeable on China and the Chinese government. John Derbyshire is a guy I would listen to in these matters, as opposed to, say, Godfree Roberts.
     
    Speaking very frankly, neither Derbyshire nor Roberts have much credibility on China matters to me, for essentially the same reason, namely they're just ideologues. Also, Derb is scared of his own shadow on "touchy" issues, so bashing China in a foolish way makes him feel brave.

    Look, you're just some random rightwinger who hangs around my website spouting off nonsense, but I've been studying China for over 40(!) years, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of that country. I even think it's reasonably likely that I was the individual who persuaded The Economist to add an Asia Section back 35 years ago. You might want to read some of the major articles I've published about China over the years, then perhaps reassess your ignorant opinion.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/chinas-rise-americas-fall/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

    https://www.unz.com/runz/the-long-decline-of-the-london-economist/

    Replies: @Yee, @Twinkie, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman

    Oh, I meant to add: I did read your social darwinism article and liked it a lot. That’s about long-term history, which I admit to not knowing that much about. Most of the history of China that I’ve read is about the last century, including 10 books about the Cultural Revolution – the latter is very relevant to 2020 America, though it wasn’t even 10 years back when I read all the books.

    No matter the disagreement here (on China and the Kung Flu), thanks for the great-working website and the opportunity for me to write in with “random rightwing nonsense”, haha!

  173. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    Speaking very frankly, neither Derbyshire nor Roberts have much credibility on China matters to me, for essentially the same reason, namely they’re just ideologues.
     
    Mr. Derbyshire on China is much like Jared Taylor on Japan - both men are experienced in their respective expatriate cultures. Their “micro” observations are often good and their critiques of the erstwhile hosts are worthwhile, but they are often led astray by their ideologies and posturing, especially on larger issues, with which they are unfamiliar.

    It’s for the same reasons that you should be skeptical when Western expatriate English teachers in Asia opine on, say, deeper local political, economic, or sociological topics. Their command of the local languages and some understanding of the cultures, which are incomprehensible to the Western public at large, give them an undue and inflated sense of expertise with Western audiences, when in fact, their experiences are specific and limited, rather than deep and expert.

    Just to be clear, I’m not saying that they mean to deceive. The problem is that actual experts on these societies are very few in number in the West, so anyone with more than shallow knowledge of them ends up getting more attention as an “expert” than he should. This was also common during the Cold War despite the USG investing a lot of resources into understanding Russia. Curiously, expertise on Germany and, to a lesser extent, Japan during World War II was relatively widespread and high quality.

    Also, Derb is scared of his own shadow on “touchy” issues
     
    Are you referring to his views on Jews?

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    Mr. Derbyshire on China is much like Jared Taylor on Japan – both men are experienced in their respective expatriate cultures. Their “micro” observations are often good and their critiques of the erstwhile hosts are worthwhile, but they are often led astray by their ideologies and posturing, especially on larger issues, with which they are unfamiliar.

    Yes, I agree entirely. Plus Derb often has to cater to his FoxNews-watching audience of rightwing dimwits. I remember back a decade or so ago, he used to privately complain that America was so totally messed up and China doing so well, that if he were younger, he’d permanently move back there with his family.

    These days, he’s all ChiCom-this and ChiCom-that…

  174. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz

    Talk aboutcher spouting of nonsense, where'd you get that 5% fatality number, Mr. Unz? The denominator of the fatality rate may not even be known to an order-of-magnitude! 5% of infected people will not die. We'll find this out soon enough (maybe a year or two).

    As for knowledge of China, I don't care how much you've read over the last 40 years, being there and talking frankly to lots of Chinese people is another story. I don't know much of the Chinese language, and I doubt you do either. It's ridiculously hard as far reading/writing, and I respect Mr. Derbyshire greatly for learning it.

    You perhaps think John Derbyshire is an ideologue because he uses the term ChiComs. Yes, that's old fashioned and I don't think it really applies now. The government there will be hard-core totalitarians as much as the people let them be, but they are smart enough to not be real Communists after its terrible history for 30-odd years there. That's why they wouldn't want Godfree Roberts in their country, his parents having been American hard-core Communists in China (per Roberts' bio), explaining why Mr. Roberts resides in Thailand instead.

    I've been to China just under a dozen times, once for 6 weeks. Talking frankly to people whose Grandpas starved to death during 1959-61, people who were greatly affected by fallout from Tiananmen square, people who grew up at the end of hard-core Communism (when rice was rationed still - 1980 and America sent them corn - feed corn, beggars can't be choosers), and lately, people who come here as visiting scholars, taking full advantage of America's university amenities (and kind of arrogantly, at that) is how I've learned about the place.* You will not truly learn about the country from old newspaper articles, as per Godfree Roberts' excerpting the Communist Party Times.** It'd be like the Chinese people learning about America from the NY Times or The Economist. That doesn't work at all.




    .

    * Oh, and visiting a lean-and-mean plant that made face masks and other nonwoven material, which taught me even more about Chinese Q/A or lack thereof, including helping load a shipping container full of face masks, was a great experience. (The plant owner didn't even know how to say "thanks" - no English at all, so she depended totally on the saleswoman - that was ... interesting.)

    ** Sometimes I can't help but think he's some kind of joke, as on Seinfeld.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    Talk aboutcher spouting of nonsense, where’d you get that 5% fatality number, Mr. Unz? The denominator of the fatality rate may not even be known to an order-of-magnitude! 5% of infected people will not die.

    Look, I’m no medical expert. But all the medical experts seem to agree that the death rate rises to around 5% once the local health system crashes and ICUs aren’t available, and that does seem consistent with the sort of numbers coming out of Lombardy where that is happening. Obviously, hundreds of millions of infected Chinese over a period of a couple of months would have crashed their health system.

    Maybe all the experts are wrong, but as far as I can tell, you’re just some random rightwing ranter who hangs around my website, so I’d probably tend to take their opinion over yours.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz


    ... as far as I can tell, you’re just some random rightwing ranter who hangs around my website,...
     
    Yeah, that's what you get for doing nothing but skimming and chiming in without reading at all. That's why I used your nice troll feature the other day. You come on here without knowing what people have written before*, and give us your fancy mathematically modeled predictions that you're going to have to backtrack on very shortly anyway.

    Fred Reed does this same thing, but worse. Just read for a while before you chime in, as in the beginning of this post, which was about a survey of attitudes toward China. You may even learn something, if you're not careful. I've read a lot of good material by you, but lately your complete anti-all-things-Americanism, your ridiculous bioweapons theories, and your reliance on material from some of your most mentally far-gone writers, make me wonder if you will be alright next month, Kung Flu notwithstanding.

    WTF is a "random" guy anyway? I was not picked by A.E. by the toss of a die. Good alliteration there, I guess.

    .

    * and I can't say that you could possibly HAVE READ all comments and all commenters. It's impossible, so you skim along.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz

    Yeah, forgot this part: 5% of WHAT is my question. Is that truly 5% of the Italians (or those in Lombardy) who actually HAVE the virus? No, because not everyone is tested, tried to be tested, or even cares to be tested. It spread quickly when lots of people have the virus. The denominator could be huge. You never addressed that.

    I don't disparage mathematical modeling on physical phenomenon when all the details (initial conditions and solid theory on every physical process involved) are well known. This is not one - many of the processes - social distancing or not, mutation of the virus, availability of supplies and equipment cannot be modeled with any accuracy. We'll never no how much garbage comes out of said models, as their proponents will insert after-the-fact fudge factors to show, yeah, well, see, now it works right.

    , @res
    @Ron Unz


    Look, I’m no medical expert. But all the medical experts seem to agree that the death rate rises to around 5% once the local health system crashes and ICUs aren’t available, and that does seem consistent with the sort of numbers coming out of Lombardy where that is happening.
     
    Could you give a link to a good analysis which states that opinion, please?

    I think the behavior of the IFR with and without adequate ICU coverage is an important point. But I have yet to see a good analysis of that. I see analysis of the overload process itself:
    https://www.esahq.org/esa-news/dynamics-of-icu-patients-and-deaths-in-italy-and-lombardy-due-to-covid-19-analysis-updated-to-30-march-day-38-evening/
    but I am not seeing analysis of the changing fatality rate with and without ICU.

    First, if doctors are triaging for the ICU then the fatality rate for those shut out of the ICU is likely inflated.

    Second, I don't see good numbers for survival rate of patients who do get into the ICU. There have been some scare numbers (e.g. only 25% survive), but I haven't seen enough detail to find them credible.

    The key factors I see are:
    - Death rates of ICU eligible patients both with and without ICU care. Note that both of those will vary with severity--which matters if triage is involved.
    - Degree of ICU capacity overflow expected.

    This is the best model I have seen for US ICU capacity. Twinkie does not like the numerical assumptions, but lacking anything better it is what I use. Note that I am using the aggressive scenario which for FluSurge is meant to be like the 1918 pandemic.
    https://qventus.com/blog/predicting-the-effects-of-the-covid-pandemic-on-us-health-system-capacity/

    Looking at week 5 (peak hospital admissions, peak deaths happen in weeks 6-7) of the aggressive scenario we see ICU capacities of 100-150% (so exceeded but not overwhelmed IMO). We also see 35,502 patients in the ICU and 50,724 new deaths.

    So if 50% of 35,502 people were denied ICU care and all died when they would have all survived with ICU care (all three of those assumptions are extremely conservative) that would give 18,000 additional deaths.

    There is no way that level of additional deaths moves the total IFR from 1% to 5%. By my eye that would result in an IFR increase of about 1/3. So 1.3%.

    Obviously, this is only a model. But the number is so far from your 5% that I think it serves as a good sanity check. If you disagree, please help me understand why.

    While writing this comment I found a decent analysis at
    Could U.S. ICUs Handle 45,000-Bed Coronavirus Load?
    https://www.medpagetoday.com/hospitalbasedmedicine/generalhospitalpractice/84845
    which links this paper from Wuhan
    Clinical Characteristics of 138 Hospitalized Patients With 2019 Novel Coronavirus–Infected Pneumonia in Wuhan, China
    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2761044

    The organ dysfunction and treatment of the 138 patients are shown in Table 4. As of February 3, 2020, 85 patients (61.6%) were still hospitalized. A total of 47 patients (34.1%) had been discharged, and 6 patients (4.3%) had died. Of the 36 patients admitted to the ICU, 11 were still in the ICU, 9 had been discharged to home, 10 had been transferred to the general wards, and 6 had died. Of the 11 patients who remained in the ICU, 6 received invasive ventilation (1 switched to extracorporeal membrane oxygenation) and 5 to noninvasive ventilations).
     
    So 6/36 of ICU patients died (none who weren't admitted to ICU died, 0/102) and 11/36 were still in the ICU (which I assume is not a good sign). So we are looking at between 1/6 and 1/2 of patients admitted to the ICU dying anyway.

    P.S. It is unlike you to calmly defer to expert opinion. Though I understand it makes a good initial prior.
  175. @Yee
    @Ron Unz

    ‘’I’ve been studying China for over 40(!) years, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of that country.‘’

    You're right and Chinese forumers agreed. A couple of years ago, someone introduced your "social darwinism" article to a Chinese forum, commenters joked that we should kill you because you know too much...

    As for the US goverment's response to the COVID-19, I don't think it's incompetence, but over-confidence at their bio-chemistry technology. They were very sure that the virus only works on Asians, so they would be safe. Intelligence of NATO countries probably in the know too.

    This is the only way to explain why ALL Western countries were unprepared. Incompetence can't explain it all. Hongkong has the most incompetence government in the developed world, yet they have handled this much better.

    BTY, I also think the mysterious pneumonia blamed on Vaping last summer could have been a trail to confirm it only has limited effect to American populace.

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @dfordoom

    As for the US goverment’s response to the COVID-19, I don’t think it’s incompetence, but over-confidence at their bio-chemistry technology. They were very sure that the virus only works on Asians, so they would be safe. Intelligence of NATO countries probably in the know too.

    This is the only way to explain why ALL Western countries were unprepared. Incompetence can’t explain it all. Hongkong has the most incompetence government in the developed world, yet they have handled this much better.

    Well, early on I was quite suspicious that the Coronavirus might be a racially-targeted bioweapon, but that’s clearly not the case. In particular, since Iran and especially its political elites were hit so early and so hard, that wouldn’t make sense.

    If it was indeed a bioweapon attack against China (and Iran), I very much doubt that top Western elites were aware of it. The incredibly stupid and ignorant statements by Trump, Boris Johnson, and lots of others pretty much absolve them. For example, Brilliant Boris Johnson publicly planned to kill off a million or two million British until someone explained the numbers to him. So I’d strongly suspect it was the Deep State Neocons.

    I think the totally incompetent behavior of Trump and the other Western elites is much more easily explained by stupidity and arrogance. Moreover, as I said above:

    Also don’t forget, after SARS broke out in East Asia in the early-2000s, America took little action, yet it never spread here. So Deep State Neocons could have (foolishly) believed that a bioweapon attack on China (and Iran) would also not produce any substantial US blowback.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Ron Unz

    “This is not a major threat to the people of the United States and this is not something that the citizens of the United States should be worried about right now,” Dr. Fauci told Newsmax’s Greg Kelly on January 21.


    https://saraacarter.com/jan-flashback-dr-fauci-said-coronavirus-is-not-a-major-threat-to-the-people-of-the-united-states/


    You might be right about Deep State Neocons not believing about any blowback. Terrible miscalculation.

  176. @Ron Unz
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Talk aboutcher spouting of nonsense, where’d you get that 5% fatality number, Mr. Unz? The denominator of the fatality rate may not even be known to an order-of-magnitude! 5% of infected people will not die.
     
    Look, I'm no medical expert. But all the medical experts seem to agree that the death rate rises to around 5% once the local health system crashes and ICUs aren't available, and that does seem consistent with the sort of numbers coming out of Lombardy where that is happening. Obviously, hundreds of millions of infected Chinese over a period of a couple of months would have crashed their health system.

    Maybe all the experts are wrong, but as far as I can tell, you're just some random rightwing ranter who hangs around my website, so I'd probably tend to take their opinion over yours.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @res

    … as far as I can tell, you’re just some random rightwing ranter who hangs around my website,…

    Yeah, that’s what you get for doing nothing but skimming and chiming in without reading at all. That’s why I used your nice troll feature the other day. You come on here without knowing what people have written before*, and give us your fancy mathematically modeled predictions that you’re going to have to backtrack on very shortly anyway.

    Fred Reed does this same thing, but worse. Just read for a while before you chime in, as in the beginning of this post, which was about a survey of attitudes toward China. You may even learn something, if you’re not careful. I’ve read a lot of good material by you, but lately your complete anti-all-things-Americanism, your ridiculous bioweapons theories, and your reliance on material from some of your most mentally far-gone writers, make me wonder if you will be alright next month, Kung Flu notwithstanding.

    WTF is a “random” guy anyway? I was not picked by A.E. by the toss of a die. Good alliteration there, I guess.

    .

    * and I can’t say that you could possibly HAVE READ all comments and all commenters. It’s impossible, so you skim along.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Achmed E. Newman


    You come on here without knowing what people have written before*, and give us your fancy mathematically modeled predictions that you’re going to have to backtrack on very shortly anyway.
     
    Well, you've apparently left over 12,000 comments here, and I certainly haven't bothered browsing your archive. But I've probably read many hundreds of your comments over the last year or two, and while none of them particularly stuck in my mind, I'm pretty sure they just seemed like typical rightwing ranting, almost always devoid of any substantive content. Lots of the other commenters here fall into the same category, so they just all sort of blend together.

    Greg Cochran is very rightwing and has a pretty "difficult" personality, but he's also quite smart and I've spent a lot of time recently reading his WestHunter blogsite, which focused on this devastating Coronavirus situation very early on, and has provided a great deal of useful information.

    Incidentally, you might want to take a look at this recent comment of mine, which helps explain why I don't take you or your idiot friends very seriously:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/human-biodiversity-and-the-novel-virus/#comment-3815230

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Twinkie

  177. @Ron Unz
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Talk aboutcher spouting of nonsense, where’d you get that 5% fatality number, Mr. Unz? The denominator of the fatality rate may not even be known to an order-of-magnitude! 5% of infected people will not die.
     
    Look, I'm no medical expert. But all the medical experts seem to agree that the death rate rises to around 5% once the local health system crashes and ICUs aren't available, and that does seem consistent with the sort of numbers coming out of Lombardy where that is happening. Obviously, hundreds of millions of infected Chinese over a period of a couple of months would have crashed their health system.

    Maybe all the experts are wrong, but as far as I can tell, you're just some random rightwing ranter who hangs around my website, so I'd probably tend to take their opinion over yours.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @res

    Yeah, forgot this part: 5% of WHAT is my question. Is that truly 5% of the Italians (or those in Lombardy) who actually HAVE the virus? No, because not everyone is tested, tried to be tested, or even cares to be tested. It spread quickly when lots of people have the virus. The denominator could be huge. You never addressed that.

    I don’t disparage mathematical modeling on physical phenomenon when all the details (initial conditions and solid theory on every physical process involved) are well known. This is not one – many of the processes – social distancing or not, mutation of the virus, availability of supplies and equipment cannot be modeled with any accuracy. We’ll never no how much garbage comes out of said models, as their proponents will insert after-the-fact fudge factors to show, yeah, well, see, now it works right.

  178. Anon[544] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ron Unz
    @Yee


    As for the US goverment’s response to the COVID-19, I don’t think it’s incompetence, but over-confidence at their bio-chemistry technology. They were very sure that the virus only works on Asians, so they would be safe. Intelligence of NATO countries probably in the know too.

    This is the only way to explain why ALL Western countries were unprepared. Incompetence can’t explain it all. Hongkong has the most incompetence government in the developed world, yet they have handled this much better.
     
    Well, early on I was quite suspicious that the Coronavirus might be a racially-targeted bioweapon, but that's clearly not the case. In particular, since Iran and especially its political elites were hit so early and so hard, that wouldn't make sense.

    If it was indeed a bioweapon attack against China (and Iran), I very much doubt that top Western elites were aware of it. The incredibly stupid and ignorant statements by Trump, Boris Johnson, and lots of others pretty much absolve them. For example, Brilliant Boris Johnson publicly planned to kill off a million or two million British until someone explained the numbers to him. So I'd strongly suspect it was the Deep State Neocons.

    I think the totally incompetent behavior of Trump and the other Western elites is much more easily explained by stupidity and arrogance. Moreover, as I said above:

    Also don’t forget, after SARS broke out in East Asia in the early-2000s, America took little action, yet it never spread here. So Deep State Neocons could have (foolishly) believed that a bioweapon attack on China (and Iran) would also not produce any substantial US blowback.
     

    Replies: @Anon

    “This is not a major threat to the people of the United States and this is not something that the citizens of the United States should be worried about right now,” Dr. Fauci told Newsmax’s Greg Kelly on January 21.

    https://saraacarter.com/jan-flashback-dr-fauci-said-coronavirus-is-not-a-major-threat-to-the-people-of-the-united-states/

    You might be right about Deep State Neocons not believing about any blowback. Terrible miscalculation.

  179. res says:
    @Ron Unz
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Talk aboutcher spouting of nonsense, where’d you get that 5% fatality number, Mr. Unz? The denominator of the fatality rate may not even be known to an order-of-magnitude! 5% of infected people will not die.
     
    Look, I'm no medical expert. But all the medical experts seem to agree that the death rate rises to around 5% once the local health system crashes and ICUs aren't available, and that does seem consistent with the sort of numbers coming out of Lombardy where that is happening. Obviously, hundreds of millions of infected Chinese over a period of a couple of months would have crashed their health system.

    Maybe all the experts are wrong, but as far as I can tell, you're just some random rightwing ranter who hangs around my website, so I'd probably tend to take their opinion over yours.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @res

    Look, I’m no medical expert. But all the medical experts seem to agree that the death rate rises to around 5% once the local health system crashes and ICUs aren’t available, and that does seem consistent with the sort of numbers coming out of Lombardy where that is happening.

    Could you give a link to a good analysis which states that opinion, please?

    I think the behavior of the IFR with and without adequate ICU coverage is an important point. But I have yet to see a good analysis of that. I see analysis of the overload process itself:
    https://www.esahq.org/esa-news/dynamics-of-icu-patients-and-deaths-in-italy-and-lombardy-due-to-covid-19-analysis-updated-to-30-march-day-38-evening/
    but I am not seeing analysis of the changing fatality rate with and without ICU.

    First, if doctors are triaging for the ICU then the fatality rate for those shut out of the ICU is likely inflated.

    Second, I don’t see good numbers for survival rate of patients who do get into the ICU. There have been some scare numbers (e.g. only 25% survive), but I haven’t seen enough detail to find them credible.

    The key factors I see are:
    – Death rates of ICU eligible patients both with and without ICU care. Note that both of those will vary with severity–which matters if triage is involved.
    – Degree of ICU capacity overflow expected.

    This is the best model I have seen for US ICU capacity. Twinkie does not like the numerical assumptions, but lacking anything better it is what I use. Note that I am using the aggressive scenario which for FluSurge is meant to be like the 1918 pandemic.
    https://qventus.com/blog/predicting-the-effects-of-the-covid-pandemic-on-us-health-system-capacity/

    Looking at week 5 (peak hospital admissions, peak deaths happen in weeks 6-7) of the aggressive scenario we see ICU capacities of 100-150% (so exceeded but not overwhelmed IMO). We also see 35,502 patients in the ICU and 50,724 new deaths.

    So if 50% of 35,502 people were denied ICU care and all died when they would have all survived with ICU care (all three of those assumptions are extremely conservative) that would give 18,000 additional deaths.

    There is no way that level of additional deaths moves the total IFR from 1% to 5%. By my eye that would result in an IFR increase of about 1/3. So 1.3%.

    Obviously, this is only a model. But the number is so far from your 5% that I think it serves as a good sanity check. If you disagree, please help me understand why.

    While writing this comment I found a decent analysis at
    Could U.S. ICUs Handle 45,000-Bed Coronavirus Load?
    https://www.medpagetoday.com/hospitalbasedmedicine/generalhospitalpractice/84845
    which links this paper from Wuhan
    Clinical Characteristics of 138 Hospitalized Patients With 2019 Novel Coronavirus–Infected Pneumonia in Wuhan, China
    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2761044

    The organ dysfunction and treatment of the 138 patients are shown in Table 4. As of February 3, 2020, 85 patients (61.6%) were still hospitalized. A total of 47 patients (34.1%) had been discharged, and 6 patients (4.3%) had died. Of the 36 patients admitted to the ICU, 11 were still in the ICU, 9 had been discharged to home, 10 had been transferred to the general wards, and 6 had died. Of the 11 patients who remained in the ICU, 6 received invasive ventilation (1 switched to extracorporeal membrane oxygenation) and 5 to noninvasive ventilations).

    So 6/36 of ICU patients died (none who weren’t admitted to ICU died, 0/102) and 11/36 were still in the ICU (which I assume is not a good sign). So we are looking at between 1/6 and 1/2 of patients admitted to the ICU dying anyway.

    P.S. It is unlike you to calmly defer to expert opinion. Though I understand it makes a good initial prior.

  180. @Intelligent Dasein
    @Achmed E. Newman


    I’d like to read other commenters’ including our host A.E.’s of course, opinions regarding this question. Why are we divided on the way to handle the Kung Flu?
     
    Among otherwise sincere people who are not flogging one side or the other due to personal involvement, strong passions, or ulterior motives, I would think it comes down to a matter of trust. For example, my philosophical support for the death penalty is unshakeable; my existential support for the death penalty, however, waxes and wanes along with my confidence that the government is going to apply it properly. Anybody who has ever been wrongly imprisoned would be understandably leary of the government doling out punishments, especially the ultimate punishement, even if he is quite comfortable with such punishments in principle.

    My concerns about Covid-19 are existential and not philosophical. I have no argument in principle with which to oppose the lockdown, because there isn't one. There may be circumstances in which a lockdown is necesary. But I have no existential confidence that this type of lockdown is either useful or necessary in the nonce, or that our government can manage this without making matters worse than what the disease would have been in the first place.

    Existential confidence is a matter of what Aristotle called prudence, i.e. the ability to know what is good for human beings in definite circumstances. It is not a matter of mere intelligence, and IQ has nothing to with it. That explains why so many bright people are on the wrong side of the issue, and it also explains why those of us on the right side of the issue cannot always articulate the point clearly.

    Replies: @Adam Smith, @The Alarmist

    So, we save a few millions of lives, but we leave them in a brutish world to eke out a mean existence. What exactly have we as a society gained?

    • Replies: @Talha
    @The Alarmist

    Entertainment...?
    https://www.twitter.com/tifffanycuh/status/1246227095522553857

    Peace.

  181. @The Alarmist
    @Intelligent Dasein

    So, we save a few millions of lives, but we leave them in a brutish world to eke out a mean existence. What exactly have we as a society gained?

    Replies: @Talha

    Entertainment…?

    Peace.

    • LOL: Yahya K.
  182. @Twinkie
    @RSDB


    I suppose it’s possible to guess based on prior conduct, of course, but I think it might still be a gamble.
     
    Ain’t nothin’ certain in life, except for the Grace of God. The best we can do is improve the odds of success.

    Replies: @RSDB

    Fair enough.

    I’m just not too sure how much trust I want to give the guy with the knife in the dark and the facile on-camera personality no matter what he says he’s selling. If one is reasonably lucky with strongmen one gets a Franco (who really wasn’t particularly good at selling himself on TV/radio/newsreels) and if one is unlucky one gets a Hitler.

    If one is very unlucky one gets a Felsenburgh.

  183. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz


    ... as far as I can tell, you’re just some random rightwing ranter who hangs around my website,...
     
    Yeah, that's what you get for doing nothing but skimming and chiming in without reading at all. That's why I used your nice troll feature the other day. You come on here without knowing what people have written before*, and give us your fancy mathematically modeled predictions that you're going to have to backtrack on very shortly anyway.

    Fred Reed does this same thing, but worse. Just read for a while before you chime in, as in the beginning of this post, which was about a survey of attitudes toward China. You may even learn something, if you're not careful. I've read a lot of good material by you, but lately your complete anti-all-things-Americanism, your ridiculous bioweapons theories, and your reliance on material from some of your most mentally far-gone writers, make me wonder if you will be alright next month, Kung Flu notwithstanding.

    WTF is a "random" guy anyway? I was not picked by A.E. by the toss of a die. Good alliteration there, I guess.

    .

    * and I can't say that you could possibly HAVE READ all comments and all commenters. It's impossible, so you skim along.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    You come on here without knowing what people have written before*, and give us your fancy mathematically modeled predictions that you’re going to have to backtrack on very shortly anyway.

    Well, you’ve apparently left over 12,000 comments here, and I certainly haven’t bothered browsing your archive. But I’ve probably read many hundreds of your comments over the last year or two, and while none of them particularly stuck in my mind, I’m pretty sure they just seemed like typical rightwing ranting, almost always devoid of any substantive content. Lots of the other commenters here fall into the same category, so they just all sort of blend together.

    Greg Cochran is very rightwing and has a pretty “difficult” personality, but he’s also quite smart and I’ve spent a lot of time recently reading his WestHunter blogsite, which focused on this devastating Coronavirus situation very early on, and has provided a great deal of useful information.

    Incidentally, you might want to take a look at this recent comment of mine, which helps explain why I don’t take you or your idiot friends very seriously:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/human-biodiversity-and-the-novel-virus/#comment-3815230

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz


    ... I’m pretty sure they just seemed like typical rightwing ranting, almost always devoid of any substantive content.
     
    Yeah, you're pretty sure of a lot of things but quite often full of shit. This will turn out to be one of those times. If not, I'll apologize, something I'd never expect out of you.

    BTW, I'm not "right wing" in the sense that you see it. Then, you just scan a few of the comments and mouth off, so I don't take that "random rightwing ranter" insult particularly seriously.

    Replies: @Thomm

    , @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    Well, you’ve apparently left over 12,000 comments here
     
    He has more comments than I do? I’m crushed!

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @res

  184. @Ron Unz
    @Achmed E. Newman


    You come on here without knowing what people have written before*, and give us your fancy mathematically modeled predictions that you’re going to have to backtrack on very shortly anyway.
     
    Well, you've apparently left over 12,000 comments here, and I certainly haven't bothered browsing your archive. But I've probably read many hundreds of your comments over the last year or two, and while none of them particularly stuck in my mind, I'm pretty sure they just seemed like typical rightwing ranting, almost always devoid of any substantive content. Lots of the other commenters here fall into the same category, so they just all sort of blend together.

    Greg Cochran is very rightwing and has a pretty "difficult" personality, but he's also quite smart and I've spent a lot of time recently reading his WestHunter blogsite, which focused on this devastating Coronavirus situation very early on, and has provided a great deal of useful information.

    Incidentally, you might want to take a look at this recent comment of mine, which helps explain why I don't take you or your idiot friends very seriously:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/human-biodiversity-and-the-novel-virus/#comment-3815230

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Twinkie

    … I’m pretty sure they just seemed like typical rightwing ranting, almost always devoid of any substantive content.

    Yeah, you’re pretty sure of a lot of things but quite often full of shit. This will turn out to be one of those times. If not, I’ll apologize, something I’d never expect out of you.

    BTW, I’m not “right wing” in the sense that you see it. Then, you just scan a few of the comments and mouth off, so I don’t take that “random rightwing ranter” insult particularly seriously.

    • Replies: @Thomm
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Yeah, you’re pretty sure of a lot of things but quite often full of shit. This will turn out to be one of those times. If not, I’ll apologize, something I’d never expect out of you.
     
    Seconded.
  185. @Yee
    @Ron Unz

    ‘’I’ve been studying China for over 40(!) years, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of that country.‘’

    You're right and Chinese forumers agreed. A couple of years ago, someone introduced your "social darwinism" article to a Chinese forum, commenters joked that we should kill you because you know too much...

    As for the US goverment's response to the COVID-19, I don't think it's incompetence, but over-confidence at their bio-chemistry technology. They were very sure that the virus only works on Asians, so they would be safe. Intelligence of NATO countries probably in the know too.

    This is the only way to explain why ALL Western countries were unprepared. Incompetence can't explain it all. Hongkong has the most incompetence government in the developed world, yet they have handled this much better.

    BTY, I also think the mysterious pneumonia blamed on Vaping last summer could have been a trail to confirm it only has limited effect to American populace.

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @dfordoom

    This is the only way to explain why ALL Western countries were unprepared. Incompetence can’t explain it all.

    You’re underestimating western incompetence. Incompetence is one field in which the Chinese will never be able to equal the West.

    And you will never be able to match our magical formula of extreme incompetence combined with gross arrogance.

    • Agree: Ron Unz
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @dfordoom


    Incompetence is one field in which the Chinese will never be able to equal the West.
     
    History says otherwise. They are beginning to to have their moment in the sun (again). They are not some supermen who are incapable of hubris and fall. Give them hegemony for a while and see what happens. To paraphrase a wise saying, power tests the character more than privation does. That goes for individuals, ruling classes, and nations.

    For my money, no one has managed an empire or the inevitable decline as well as the British have. I don’t think the Chinese will equal them.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  186. @Tor597
    @Audacious Epigone

    Are you kidding me?

    Asia pretty much contained the virus on their end. Meanwhile the entirety of the west has failed. This is everything from the UK purposely trying to infect everyone for lol herd immunity to Spring Breakers spreading the virus because it was just the flu bro.

    So what really made this an unmanageable global pandemic was the west failing to contain it on their end and continuing to travel because they thought it only kills Asians or old people.

    Now, if you trace back Americas timeline, Trump had multiple failures in acting swiftly. Look at NY right now. He should have shut down NY before it spread like China did to Wuhan. But he chickened out and now these NYers are going to infect the rest of the country and then the world.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Asia pretty much contained the virus on their end.

    Who is kidding who now?

  187. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Audacious Epigone

    I suppose so. As I wrote, I didn't make any effort to follow any of all that. To go along with this banana-republic government, why didn't Trump just fire the guy right after that and get a guy who wouldn't recuse him. (I'm not knocking it and what you and Twinkie are saying about this, BTW.)

    The fact is, since Sessions is no longer AG, and he's an immigration patriot, if not endorsing the guy, couldn't Trump just stay out of Jeff Sessions' Senate primary election? No, he has to be a spiteful bitch about it. There's no call for that.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke, @Twinkie

    No, he has to be a spiteful bitch about it. There’s no call for that.

    I clicked on “Agree” because I think Sessions is valuable in a Senate seat. However, for being the decisive factor in having made Trump’s tenure a living hell during his first 3 years, under which a lesser man would have buckled*, it’s actually not a bad thing that Trump should attempt to crush Sessions like a bug. If this act of perfidy isn’t reason enough to rake Sessions over the coals, what is?

    * I can’t ever be said to be a Trump fan, but I am impressed by his mental toughness (I reached for the word stoicism, but that’s not a word that comes to mind when *anyone* thinks about Trump) in the face of relentless assault, abetted by quislings in his own party.

  188. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Audacious Epigone

    I suppose so. As I wrote, I didn't make any effort to follow any of all that. To go along with this banana-republic government, why didn't Trump just fire the guy right after that and get a guy who wouldn't recuse him. (I'm not knocking it and what you and Twinkie are saying about this, BTW.)

    The fact is, since Sessions is no longer AG, and he's an immigration patriot, if not endorsing the guy, couldn't Trump just stay out of Jeff Sessions' Senate primary election? No, he has to be a spiteful bitch about it. There's no call for that.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke, @Twinkie

    No, he has to be a spiteful bitch about it.

    Some people think that he ran for and became president to spite Obama who mocked him at the 2011 White House correspondents dinner.

    Frankly, I need someone spiteful on my side, because my political enemies (the left in general, Democrats, etc.) richly deserve some spite for their destruction of the America I love.

    But the problem with Trump is that his spite is not very discriminating. He goes guns-blazing at anyone and everyone he feels has wronged or crossed him. So far he has been very fortunate in his enemies. Let us hope that his luck continues and he doesn’t engage in too much friendly-fire.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Twinkie

    Running for President out of spite? Haha, I'm not questioning your info., but that's a hoot, isn't it? I've heard for the glory, for the fame, for the power, for the money, for the ability to pardon ones' self (?), to avoid being institutionalized, but never for spite before.*

    Yes, of course you've got to be discriminating. You don't spite the people on your side. Most thinking people would realize that. Way back, old Ronnie had the "11th Commandment", which said to R-candidates for higher office: "Thou shall speak no ill of any Republicans." I am reading a Pat Buchanan book, The Greatest Comeback, and this comes up. Personally, I think Reagan's 11th Commandment was going too far.

    .

    * Oh, I forgot one! To serve one's country by administering the Executive Branch of the Federal Government. Whoa! Man, I'm getting old - the last time I heard that was from Calvin Coolidge (though possibly the great Libertarian AuH2O may have said something along those lines).

    Replies: @res

  189. @dfordoom
    @Yee


    This is the only way to explain why ALL Western countries were unprepared. Incompetence can’t explain it all.
     
    You're underestimating western incompetence. Incompetence is one field in which the Chinese will never be able to equal the West.

    And you will never be able to match our magical formula of extreme incompetence combined with gross arrogance.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Incompetence is one field in which the Chinese will never be able to equal the West.

    History says otherwise. They are beginning to to have their moment in the sun (again). They are not some supermen who are incapable of hubris and fall. Give them hegemony for a while and see what happens. To paraphrase a wise saying, power tests the character more than privation does. That goes for individuals, ruling classes, and nations.

    For my money, no one has managed an empire or the inevitable decline as well as the British have. I don’t think the Chinese will equal them.

    • Agree: Yahya K.
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Twinkie


    For my money, no one has managed an empire or the inevitable decline as well as the British have.
     
    I remember visiting Britain for the first time, in the early 80s. Going from Australia to Britain was like going from the First World to the Third World. And I'm not talking about the immigrants in Britain. I'm talking about the native Britons. They lived like Third Worlders. What a miserable squalid place.


    Incompetence is one field in which the Chinese will never be able to equal the West.
     
    History says otherwise.
     
    I admit that saying that China is more competent than the West is not saying much. It's a very low bar.
  190. @Ron Unz
    @Achmed E. Newman


    You come on here without knowing what people have written before*, and give us your fancy mathematically modeled predictions that you’re going to have to backtrack on very shortly anyway.
     
    Well, you've apparently left over 12,000 comments here, and I certainly haven't bothered browsing your archive. But I've probably read many hundreds of your comments over the last year or two, and while none of them particularly stuck in my mind, I'm pretty sure they just seemed like typical rightwing ranting, almost always devoid of any substantive content. Lots of the other commenters here fall into the same category, so they just all sort of blend together.

    Greg Cochran is very rightwing and has a pretty "difficult" personality, but he's also quite smart and I've spent a lot of time recently reading his WestHunter blogsite, which focused on this devastating Coronavirus situation very early on, and has provided a great deal of useful information.

    Incidentally, you might want to take a look at this recent comment of mine, which helps explain why I don't take you or your idiot friends very seriously:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/human-biodiversity-and-the-novel-virus/#comment-3815230

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Twinkie

    Well, you’ve apparently left over 12,000 comments here

    He has more comments than I do? I’m crushed!

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Twinkie

    I'm surprised you have over 8,000, Twinkie. You must have written a lot on threads of some other writers, because A.E. started, what, a year ago? I haven't seen you write THAT much on iSteve.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @res
    @Twinkie

    I found the 12,500 number (actually, 12,487 right now) pretty amazing. I feel like I comment too much (about 10% fewer comments than you ; ), but AEN making over 50% more comments than me over a similar time period kind of blows my mind.

    P.S. Twinkie, despite the joking, I'd be happy to see you comment even more.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Twinkie

  191. @Twinkie
    @Achmed E. Newman


    No, he has to be a spiteful bitch about it.
     
    Some people think that he ran for and became president to spite Obama who mocked him at the 2011 White House correspondents dinner.

    Frankly, I need someone spiteful on my side, because my political enemies (the left in general, Democrats, etc.) richly deserve some spite for their destruction of the America I love.

    But the problem with Trump is that his spite is not very discriminating. He goes guns-blazing at anyone and everyone he feels has wronged or crossed him. So far he has been very fortunate in his enemies. Let us hope that his luck continues and he doesn’t engage in too much friendly-fire.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Running for President out of spite? Haha, I’m not questioning your info., but that’s a hoot, isn’t it? I’ve heard for the glory, for the fame, for the power, for the money, for the ability to pardon ones’ self (?), to avoid being institutionalized, but never for spite before.*

    Yes, of course you’ve got to be discriminating. You don’t spite the people on your side. Most thinking people would realize that. Way back, old Ronnie had the “11th Commandment”, which said to R-candidates for higher office: “Thou shall speak no ill of any Republicans.” I am reading a Pat Buchanan book, The Greatest Comeback, and this comes up. Personally, I think Reagan’s 11th Commandment was going too far.

    .

    * Oh, I forgot one! To serve one’s country by administering the Executive Branch of the Federal Government. Whoa! Man, I’m getting old – the last time I heard that was from Calvin Coolidge (though possibly the great Libertarian AuH2O may have said something along those lines).

    • Replies: @res
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Running for President out of spite? Haha, I’m not questioning your info., but that’s a hoot, isn’t it?
     
    Hard to know people's reasons for doing things. This article argues against that as the cause:
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-white-house-correspondents-dinner-trump-20170226-story.html

    But I think the idea kind of fits with Trump's personality and might have been enough to push him from considering to doing. I kind of like that narrative along with the idea that once he realized he had a good chance of winning (a decent number of people make semi-serious abortive presidential runs each year) he really went for it.
  192. @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    Well, you’ve apparently left over 12,000 comments here
     
    He has more comments than I do? I’m crushed!

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @res

    I’m surprised you have over 8,000, Twinkie. You must have written a lot on threads of some other writers, because A.E. started, what, a year ago? I haven’t seen you write THAT much on iSteve.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I used to comment a lot on iSteve, but got tired of dealing with troll after troll and a flood of useless posturing comments there. These days, I mostly comment on AE’s blog and Razib Khan’s. I find that both attract relatively high quality commenters and usually write objective analyses based on good data. And from what I can glean from online, both are good people.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

  193. res says:
    @Twinkie
    @Ron Unz


    Well, you’ve apparently left over 12,000 comments here
     
    He has more comments than I do? I’m crushed!

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @res

    I found the 12,500 number (actually, 12,487 right now) pretty amazing. I feel like I comment too much (about 10% fewer comments than you ; ), but AEN making over 50% more comments than me over a similar time period kind of blows my mind.

    P.S. Twinkie, despite the joking, I’d be happy to see you comment even more.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @res

    I'll admit right now, and as you all know anyway, I do like the smart-ass remarks. Sometimes, I really can't help it, whether directed at the post (iSteve's continual poking fun at the NY Times, Atlantic, etc, are tailor made for this) or other comments. I'll also do [Agree]s, [Thanks]s, and those things, with a short comment when my 3 in 12 hrs has cut me off.

    I don't spend time to research a lot of the subject matter, though I will write more on what I know about. The rest is political discussion, which doesn't usually need numbers and figures. I understand why Mr. Unz gave you the yellow star there, Res. You put a tremendous amount of effort into your comments. For some of the other stars (who comment mostly on the writers I don't like anyway) are more of a mystery to me.

    , @Twinkie
    @res


    I’d be happy to see you comment even more.
     
    Thanks for the kind words, but it is commenters like you who add true value around here. Your comments are frequently full of numerate information and analysis.

    I’m actually trying to cut back on my screen time, an effort which is failing at this moment thanks to the pandemic.
  194. res says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    @Twinkie

    Running for President out of spite? Haha, I'm not questioning your info., but that's a hoot, isn't it? I've heard for the glory, for the fame, for the power, for the money, for the ability to pardon ones' self (?), to avoid being institutionalized, but never for spite before.*

    Yes, of course you've got to be discriminating. You don't spite the people on your side. Most thinking people would realize that. Way back, old Ronnie had the "11th Commandment", which said to R-candidates for higher office: "Thou shall speak no ill of any Republicans." I am reading a Pat Buchanan book, The Greatest Comeback, and this comes up. Personally, I think Reagan's 11th Commandment was going too far.

    .

    * Oh, I forgot one! To serve one's country by administering the Executive Branch of the Federal Government. Whoa! Man, I'm getting old - the last time I heard that was from Calvin Coolidge (though possibly the great Libertarian AuH2O may have said something along those lines).

    Replies: @res

    Running for President out of spite? Haha, I’m not questioning your info., but that’s a hoot, isn’t it?

    Hard to know people’s reasons for doing things. This article argues against that as the cause:
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-white-house-correspondents-dinner-trump-20170226-story.html

    But I think the idea kind of fits with Trump’s personality and might have been enough to push him from considering to doing. I kind of like that narrative along with the idea that once he realized he had a good chance of winning (a decent number of people make semi-serious abortive presidential runs each year) he really went for it.

  195. @res
    @Twinkie

    I found the 12,500 number (actually, 12,487 right now) pretty amazing. I feel like I comment too much (about 10% fewer comments than you ; ), but AEN making over 50% more comments than me over a similar time period kind of blows my mind.

    P.S. Twinkie, despite the joking, I'd be happy to see you comment even more.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Twinkie

    I’ll admit right now, and as you all know anyway, I do like the smart-ass remarks. Sometimes, I really can’t help it, whether directed at the post (iSteve’s continual poking fun at the NY Times, Atlantic, etc, are tailor made for this) or other comments. I’ll also do [Agree]s, [Thanks]s, and those things, with a short comment when my 3 in 12 hrs has cut me off.

    I don’t spend time to research a lot of the subject matter, though I will write more on what I know about. The rest is political discussion, which doesn’t usually need numbers and figures. I understand why Mr. Unz gave you the yellow star there, Res. You put a tremendous amount of effort into your comments. For some of the other stars (who comment mostly on the writers I don’t like anyway) are more of a mystery to me.

    • Thanks: res
  196. @Twinkie
    @dfordoom


    Incompetence is one field in which the Chinese will never be able to equal the West.
     
    History says otherwise. They are beginning to to have their moment in the sun (again). They are not some supermen who are incapable of hubris and fall. Give them hegemony for a while and see what happens. To paraphrase a wise saying, power tests the character more than privation does. That goes for individuals, ruling classes, and nations.

    For my money, no one has managed an empire or the inevitable decline as well as the British have. I don’t think the Chinese will equal them.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    For my money, no one has managed an empire or the inevitable decline as well as the British have.

    I remember visiting Britain for the first time, in the early 80s. Going from Australia to Britain was like going from the First World to the Third World. And I’m not talking about the immigrants in Britain. I’m talking about the native Britons. They lived like Third Worlders. What a miserable squalid place.

    Incompetence is one field in which the Chinese will never be able to equal the West.

    History says otherwise.

    I admit that saying that China is more competent than the West is not saying much. It’s a very low bar.

  197. @res
    @Twinkie

    I found the 12,500 number (actually, 12,487 right now) pretty amazing. I feel like I comment too much (about 10% fewer comments than you ; ), but AEN making over 50% more comments than me over a similar time period kind of blows my mind.

    P.S. Twinkie, despite the joking, I'd be happy to see you comment even more.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Twinkie

    I’d be happy to see you comment even more.

    Thanks for the kind words, but it is commenters like you who add true value around here. Your comments are frequently full of numerate information and analysis.

    I’m actually trying to cut back on my screen time, an effort which is failing at this moment thanks to the pandemic.

  198. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Twinkie

    I'm surprised you have over 8,000, Twinkie. You must have written a lot on threads of some other writers, because A.E. started, what, a year ago? I haven't seen you write THAT much on iSteve.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    I used to comment a lot on iSteve, but got tired of dealing with troll after troll and a flood of useless posturing comments there. These days, I mostly comment on AE’s blog and Razib Khan’s. I find that both attract relatively high quality commenters and usually write objective analyses based on good data. And from what I can glean from online, both are good people.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Twinkie

    Razib is a good person, even when no one is looking and no one else will know. Tremendous character.

  199. It’s the quality, not the quantity.

    Just so y’all don’t forget.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @iffen

    Sometimes the best quality is a good quantity!

  200. @Twinkie
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I used to comment a lot on iSteve, but got tired of dealing with troll after troll and a flood of useless posturing comments there. These days, I mostly comment on AE’s blog and Razib Khan’s. I find that both attract relatively high quality commenters and usually write objective analyses based on good data. And from what I can glean from online, both are good people.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Razib is a good person, even when no one is looking and no one else will know. Tremendous character.

  201. @iffen
    It's the quality, not the quantity.

    Just so y'all don't forget.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Sometimes the best quality is a good quantity!

  202. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Ron Unz


    ... I’m pretty sure they just seemed like typical rightwing ranting, almost always devoid of any substantive content.
     
    Yeah, you're pretty sure of a lot of things but quite often full of shit. This will turn out to be one of those times. If not, I'll apologize, something I'd never expect out of you.

    BTW, I'm not "right wing" in the sense that you see it. Then, you just scan a few of the comments and mouth off, so I don't take that "random rightwing ranter" insult particularly seriously.

    Replies: @Thomm

    Yeah, you’re pretty sure of a lot of things but quite often full of shit. This will turn out to be one of those times. If not, I’ll apologize, something I’d never expect out of you.

    Seconded.

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