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If interest rates go up, the markets will crash in a way that makes 2008 look like foreplay. The Fed gently tried to tighten up in late 2018 and it sent the market off a cliff. But the international credit system needs to perpetually add to the world’s ever-increasing levels of debt to fuel the asset price increases foundational to keeping the whole thing upright. The best way to spur debt creation is to lower interest rates. But rates are hovering just above zero now.

One potential way out of this trap is to lower interest rates below 0%. Depositors pay financial institutions to hold their money rather than those financial institutions paying depositors for the privilege of booking the deposits and then lending multiples of the deposits out other parties at higher rates than they pay the depositors.

Absent fractional reserve banking and a relatively steady increase in the money supply–that is, inflation–this is sensible. People pay to have their gold, jewelry, collectibles, and other highly valuable items stored. But because the supply of those things are limited, their real value tends to increase. They also require real physical space to store. That never happens with and is not applicable to fiat currencies. Like a car off the lot, as soon as a dollar comes off the proverbial presses it is losing value.

Big commercial institutions can handle marginally negative interest rates for convenience and scale. Individuals and small business on the other hand? It’s bad enough to let an institution hold money without a nominal return, let alone a real one. But nominally paying to do so? Better to literally store money under the mattress than let the bank hold onto it.

Is there a way to force the issue? Sure, by going cashless. If the only way to store money is in an institution approved by the regulatory state for the purpose, negative interest rates are viable.

If only the pesky proles would get with the program. Westerners are recalcitrant. The following graph shows net support (opposition) to becoming cashless, “meaning only electronic forms of money such as debit cards, credit cards and Apple or Google pay would be accepted”, by selected countries:

In India, the most corrupt country surveyed, support for going cashless is high. This isn’t surprising. If bribing a cop or a bureaucrat to avoid being harassed or to get basic administrative work done is a daily experience, creating a digital record of all monetary transactions no matter how modest the amount will be attractive. Captain Strong and the petty bureaucrat don’t want a permanent record of their crimes. Italian support is also relatively high, presumably the same reason–Italy fares considerably worse than the other European and diaspora countries when it comes to corruption.

Early in the coronavirus catastrophe, the idea of extracting cash from the system was floated–it’s a disease vector, the dirtiest thing in society, you know!–and there were severe coin shortages all over the country, but the powers that be didn’t go through with it. Not yet, anyway. They’ll try again.

 
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  1. Better to literally store money under the mattress than let the bank hold onto it.

    That’s so… (old folks) Asian.

    I will now commit Seppuku for my dastardly racist stereotyping (but only symbolically like a millennial – I don’t want to get a cut or anything, playing with dangerous swords).

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Twinkie

    If you mean SE Asia, Twinkie, then your stereotyping might be right, or even if you refer to China of 10 years ago - it was all nothing but cash, cash, cash, loads of those red Chairman Mao 100's (about 15 bucks apiece. See my other comment regarding China.

    Maybe you could tell us what's the situation in modern S. Korea. I'd just guess that they are going the same way as China, not for the same Orwellian reasons, I suppose, but for the convenience for the young people.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

  2. OT: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/hunter-biden-under-federal-investigation/2020/12/09/3b7361be-3a64-11eb-9276-ae0ca72729be_story.html

    Federal prosecutors have been investigating Hunter Biden, President-elect Joe Biden’s son, to determine if he failed to report income from China-related business deals, according to people familiar with the matter — a politically explosive probe that is likely to challenge the Justice Department in the incoming administration. [Boldface mine.]

    I suppose NPR will act like it was on the news all along.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Twinkie

    I suppose NPR will act like it was on the news all along.

    NPR and other MSM outlets will continue to act consistently inconsistent. It wasn't news before the election and it isn't news now.

    In the days ahead watch the consistently inconsistent dynamic play out over the Defense Department waiver for Austin vis-a-vis Mattis.

    , @Anonymous
    @Twinkie

    All the major media will run with the Biden corruption story forcing Joe to resign and give us President Kamala. It was the plan all along.

  3. Maybe, that is the whole point of these attempts to make physical currency woke, like the “Diversity built Britain” coin. It might be to make people sick of physical currency, with its possible political messaging.

    • Replies: @My SIMPLE Pseudonymic Handle
    @songbird

    "It might be to make people sick of physical currency, with its possible political messaging."

    Is that possibly why Obama wanted to replace some dead white dude (Alexander Hamilton) with a dead black chick (Harriet Tubman).

    After doing an online search it seems they couldn't make up their minds whether to put her on the US $10 or the US $20.

    I guess they liked Hamilton (Central Bank lover) better than Jackson (Central Bank hater).

  4. In Germany a lot of banks still don’t charge for retail deposits but do for institutional deposits. Bank Net interest margins are around 2.5-3.0% so this could be sustainable with modestly negative rates

  5. One potential way out of this trap is to lower interest rates below 0%. Depositors pay financial institutions to hold their money rather than those financial institutions paying depositors for the privilege of booking the deposits and then lending multiples of the deposits out other parties at higher rates than they pay the depositors.

    Absent fractional reserve banking and a relatively steady increase in the money supply–that is, inflation–this is sensible.

    No, I’m living and functioning in that world already, and I can assure you it is value-destructive, leading to all sorts mal-investment and a total disincentive for people to save for their future; you either “invest” in over-inflated stocks, lining the pockets of the oligarchs who are selling to you, or you spend, lining the pockets of the oligarchs who are selling to you. Can you have Capitaism without capital?

    Welcome to the Casino Gulag …

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  6. This is a more important issue than people think, A.E. Thank you for bringing it up. It’s not solely about the ability of governments keep people from storing their wealth, aka, the years of their labor. The 2nd, and more sinister aspect of this, IMO, is that the cashless society will enable the Revelation Mark o’ the Beast business in earnest.

    The young people just don’t seem to care, and not so many of the older people either. For the young it’s all about convenience over everything else. If you can’t do it with your “telephone”, then it doesn’t need being done, is their thinking.

    One huge, huge, bar is missing here: CHINA. (We kindly request it in yellow.) China is going and has gone cashless in a decade.

    For more on this, I highly really recommend the middle part of the book We Have Been Harmonized, with PS’s Part 2 on the rise of Xi Jingping, who is attempting to be a kinder and gentler Mao Zedong. Part 3 will come later today, which will be about Kai Strittmatter’s observations of the Orwellian society that China has ALREADY BECOME.

    Early in the coronavirus catastrophe, the idea of extracting cash from the system was floated–it’s a disease vector, the dirtiest thing in society, you know!–and there were severe coin shortages all over the country, but the powers that be didn’t go through with it. Not yet, anyway. They’ll try again.

    I ran into that myself. I really thought this would be a big push for cashless. At various airport terminal eateries, they’d tell me that “we don’t have change”, “we can’t handle cash, it’s nasty and dirty” (that was very early on in this PanicFest), and a few times lately no particular reason was given. I’ve walked off before, and isn’t there some law (haha, laws!) that say the businesses must take your American currency? Let’s say I pay with exact change. Any lawyers or bright legal minds available? Commenter Adam Smith, pick up your white courtesy handheld telephone.

    • Replies: @Adam Smith
    @Achmed E. Newman

    https://y.yarn.co/7896d6d0-5a3b-42c0-bd74-af375aa29d53_screenshot.jpg

    Good morning Mr. Newman,

    I hope this message finds you well...


    isn’t there some law (haha, laws!) that say the businesses must take your American currency?
     
    I think you're referring to the Joint Resolution of June 5, 1933...

    "Every obligation, heretofore or hereafter incurred, whether or not any such provisions is contained therein or made with respect thereto, shall be discharged upon payment, dollar for dollar, in any such coin or currency which at the time is legal tender for public and private debts."
     

    "All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations) hereunto and hereafter coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, for public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues, except gold coins, when below the standard weight and limit of tolerance provided by law for the single piece, shall be legal tender only at valuation in proportion to their actual weight."
     
    https://www.loc.gov/law/help/statutes-at-large/73rd-congress/session-1/c73s1ch48.pdf

    https://freedom-school.com/h-j-r-192.pdf

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    , @Adam Smith
    @Achmed E. Newman


    and isn’t there some law (haha, laws!) that say the businesses must take your American currency?
     
    The Joint Resolution of June 5, 1933 is not law. It's public policy.

    I suppose one day "they" could change that policy. The new edict could say something about how we can no longer demand the discharge of payments in paper and coins as the digital tokens are the new currency and every obligation, heretofore or hereafter incurred, whether or not any such provisions is contained therein or made with respect thereto, shall be discharged upon payment, token for token, in any such digital currency which at the time is legal tender for public and private debts.

    But, for now, if you incur a debt or obligation you can discharge it with paper currency dollar for dollar. If you offer a business legal tender to discharge a debt, a business can refuse your offer, but your debt remains discharged under admiralty as you satisfied your obligation as per public policy.

    , @My SIMPLE Pseudonymic Handle
    @Achmed E. Newman

    As China goes so goes the US, especially in regards to going cashless.

    It will take about the same amount of time as it did in China.

    We already have systems in place to nudge this process along. Banks are now required to report large cash deposits/withdrawals. Carrying large amounts of cash can result in civil asset forfeiture if pulled over by the cops and the cash is found. You can only have Social Security electronically deposited now. Many companies now require direct deposit and if you want to pay by check you need to pay a fee. Federal and state programs like food assistance and unemployment payments are only available through direct deposit or debit cards. I'm sure many others can come up with a multitude of examples of being officially nudged in the direction of going cashless.

    While many vending machines currently offer the option of paying in cash they also include the ability to pay with cards and smartphones. Eventually, they'll start removing the option of being able to pay in cash.

    And, as consumer goods, food, and fuel costs continue to increase the desire to carry around the cash to pay for these necessities diminishes by the year. So, by 2030 you can bet digital forms of payment will constitute the vast majority transactions. From what I've read digital forms of payments constitute 2/3rds of all transactions in the US.


    As for requiring FRNs as payment, no, they're not required to accept Federal Reserve Notes as payment. It may say legal tender for all debts public and private but that doesn't mean anyone has to accept them.

    If you decided to sell your car and would only accept gold and silver as payment you could do that. Of course that doesn't necessarily force the buyer to indulge your demand. As you pointed out they can easily walk away. In the same instance you could also refuse to accept as payment anything other cash.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  7. Why would corrupt countries prefer digital cash?
    Actually cashless provides more, not less, possibilities of corruption and financial shenanigans.
    I think the reasons may be other.
    But I have no idea why Italians would be more in favour of digital payments.
    In Germany, I know they prefer hard cash.

  8. I have heard of businesses that refuse to accept cash because if coronadoom, but I have only encountered one so far — the landfill nearest me. I had to take a load there earlier this week and it was card only. Ironically, as one might expect, the landfill is the filthiest place imaginable right at the dump face. All kinds of trash is there, of course, any amount of it possibly contaminated with coronadoom!

    Usually they have large dumpsters lower down for people like me with just pickup loads, but Tuesday they didn’t. Don’t know if that’s coronadoom-related.

    I hate having to drive all the way up to the public dump face because of the stink and because of the danger that I’ll drive over something that will puncture a tire.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Cloudbuster

    What a farce, Cloudbuster! Would you call that irony or stupidity that the dump is worried about the Kung Flu? I've got to use this story, if that's fine with you.

    OK, now I see what they're getting at now:

    Your cash ain't nothin' but trash.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYwh9VYNNFU

    ... and there ain't no use in your hangin' around.

    , @anon
    @Cloudbuster

    I have heard of businesses that refuse to accept cash because if coronadoom, but I have only encountered one so far — the landfill nearest me.

    Lol, that's ironic. We should all savor these special modern moments. Perhaps some modern Gogol or Kafka will include them in a Current Year Fiction. Probably not, but one can always hope!

    The local FedEx shipping center is plastic only, no paper, and one customer indoors at a time, because PlagueDoom.

    I told the UPS dudes about that and they did a little riff about FedEx snowflakes. Multiple customers laughed. Politely, and through their masks, of course.

  9. @Twinkie
    OT: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/hunter-biden-under-federal-investigation/2020/12/09/3b7361be-3a64-11eb-9276-ae0ca72729be_story.html

    Federal prosecutors have been investigating Hunter Biden, President-elect Joe Biden’s son, to determine if he failed to report income from China-related business deals, according to people familiar with the matter — a politically explosive probe that is likely to challenge the Justice Department in the incoming administration. [Boldface mine.]
     
    I suppose NPR will act like it was on the news all along.

    Replies: @iffen, @Anonymous

    I suppose NPR will act like it was on the news all along.

    NPR and other MSM outlets will continue to act consistently inconsistent. It wasn’t news before the election and it isn’t news now.

    In the days ahead watch the consistently inconsistent dynamic play out over the Defense Department waiver for Austin vis-a-vis Mattis.

  10. @Twinkie

    Better to literally store money under the mattress than let the bank hold onto it.
     
    That’s so... (old folks) Asian.

    I will now commit Seppuku for my dastardly racist stereotyping (but only symbolically like a millennial - I don’t want to get a cut or anything, playing with dangerous swords).

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    If you mean SE Asia, Twinkie, then your stereotyping might be right, or even if you refer to China of 10 years ago – it was all nothing but cash, cash, cash, loads of those red Chairman Mao 100’s (about 15 bucks apiece. See my other comment regarding China.

    Maybe you could tell us what’s the situation in modern S. Korea. I’d just guess that they are going the same way as China, not for the same Orwellian reasons, I suppose, but for the convenience for the young people.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Achmed E. Newman

    There is talk of it in Japan. Japan is an interesting place. Convenient digital pay schemes proliferate, and this culture exists alongside a traditional very pro-cash culture. My first employer in Japan gave me my monthly salary as wads of $100 and $10 bills in an envelope. In a stack, the largest bills have to go on top, and the cleanest, nicest ones as well. The stack has to be put in the envelope in the correct orientation. The envelope has to be handed off and accepted with two hands. Etc. In school or a first job, my wife learned methods for rapid counting of bills so that she can literally flip through and sum up a stack of cash while I'm still trying to pry the first fews bills apart. However, the government has announced that it wants to go cashless in the near future. They also instituted a "MyNumber" national ID system a few years ago. Before that, you could literally disappear in society. Now there are many things you can't do without your MyNumber ID, and eventually there will be few transactions you can make without being tracked as well.

    My martial arts dojo recently decided to move to online payments, after years of using an antiquated envelope cash payment system in which members received an envelope for the year, which they turned in every month with the fee amount for each consecutive month written on the outside. The fee receipt was the Sensei's hanko (ink stamp) on top of the fee amount. The reason to go cashless was some amalgam of efficiency and COVID protection, but the actual underlying psychological push came, I believe, ultimately, from the sense that "this is the way we are headed" because of the government's pronouncements.

  11. @Twinkie
    OT: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/hunter-biden-under-federal-investigation/2020/12/09/3b7361be-3a64-11eb-9276-ae0ca72729be_story.html

    Federal prosecutors have been investigating Hunter Biden, President-elect Joe Biden’s son, to determine if he failed to report income from China-related business deals, according to people familiar with the matter — a politically explosive probe that is likely to challenge the Justice Department in the incoming administration. [Boldface mine.]
     
    I suppose NPR will act like it was on the news all along.

    Replies: @iffen, @Anonymous

    All the major media will run with the Biden corruption story forcing Joe to resign and give us President Kamala. It was the plan all along.

  12. I don’t think that’s a specifically Asian thing: older people in my family did that. The Depression caused a lot of people to distrust banks.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @nebulafox

    The Depression caused a lot of people to distrust banks.

    Entrusting your money to someone or some company and not getting it back would tend to cause this.

  13. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Twinkie

    If you mean SE Asia, Twinkie, then your stereotyping might be right, or even if you refer to China of 10 years ago - it was all nothing but cash, cash, cash, loads of those red Chairman Mao 100's (about 15 bucks apiece. See my other comment regarding China.

    Maybe you could tell us what's the situation in modern S. Korea. I'd just guess that they are going the same way as China, not for the same Orwellian reasons, I suppose, but for the convenience for the young people.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    There is talk of it in Japan. Japan is an interesting place. Convenient digital pay schemes proliferate, and this culture exists alongside a traditional very pro-cash culture. My first employer in Japan gave me my monthly salary as wads of $100 and $10 bills in an envelope. In a stack, the largest bills have to go on top, and the cleanest, nicest ones as well. The stack has to be put in the envelope in the correct orientation. The envelope has to be handed off and accepted with two hands. Etc. In school or a first job, my wife learned methods for rapid counting of bills so that she can literally flip through and sum up a stack of cash while I’m still trying to pry the first fews bills apart. However, the government has announced that it wants to go cashless in the near future. They also instituted a “MyNumber” national ID system a few years ago. Before that, you could literally disappear in society. Now there are many things you can’t do without your MyNumber ID, and eventually there will be few transactions you can make without being tracked as well.

    My martial arts dojo recently decided to move to online payments, after years of using an antiquated envelope cash payment system in which members received an envelope for the year, which they turned in every month with the fee amount for each consecutive month written on the outside. The fee receipt was the Sensei’s hanko (ink stamp) on top of the fee amount. The reason to go cashless was some amalgam of efficiency and COVID protection, but the actual underlying psychological push came, I believe, ultimately, from the sense that “this is the way we are headed” because of the government’s pronouncements.

    • Thanks: Achmed E. Newman
  14. @Cloudbuster
    I have heard of businesses that refuse to accept cash because if coronadoom, but I have only encountered one so far -- the landfill nearest me. I had to take a load there earlier this week and it was card only. Ironically, as one might expect, the landfill is the filthiest place imaginable right at the dump face. All kinds of trash is there, of course, any amount of it possibly contaminated with coronadoom!

    Usually they have large dumpsters lower down for people like me with just pickup loads, but Tuesday they didn't. Don't know if that's coronadoom-related.

    I hate having to drive all the way up to the public dump face because of the stink and because of the danger that I'll drive over something that will puncture a tire.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @anon

    What a farce, Cloudbuster! Would you call that irony or stupidity that the dump is worried about the Kung Flu? I’ve got to use this story, if that’s fine with you.

    OK, now I see what they’re getting at now:

    Your cash ain’t nothin’ but trash.

    … and there ain’t no use in your hangin’ around.

  15. I have a hard time believing that gun shows will ever be cashless. No one wants government records showing that they have expensive firearms.

    It was eye opening when I first saw the antique collectors do business. Tens of thousands of dollars in cash changed hands in return for a few hard to find pieces. Way out of my league. Now that I keep an eye peeled, I see such transactions at every large show.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @A123

    Yeah, lots of cash gets passed along, and with the antiques and private in-State deals, those NICS checks are not required. I urge you though, A123, for your own good, not to believe that the "instant background check" program deletes everything about you after you get approved (or not). BS. Everything is saved somewhere.

    That's just a word to the wise.

    , @Cloudbuster
    @A123

    Almost all the dealers at any gun show outside of antiques and black powder dealers are going to run a background check on you, so there's going to be a record. It's required by law. There is no "gun show loop hole." If you sell more than, I think, five guns a year you qualify as a dealer under federal law and the gun shows are heavily scrutinized.

    As Achmed E. Newman says, you know they don't delete all that info after the check. Also, the FFL holder has to hold your form for as long as he runs his business, then is required to turn his records over to the ATF if he ever shuts down.

    If you want to buy off the record, join a gun club, make some shooting buddies and earn their trust, then you can get word of mouth around about what you want to buy or sell. That's completely legal in most states, just sales between private individuals.

  16. Pretty soon now the proles won’t own anything, won’t need to buy anything, so (in theory) there won’t be anything for them to buy, thus no need for cash or even money. All the Big Boys need is an accounting system. It is not related to value. Just sort of a binary “Your existence is allotted 2000 calories per day. Make it work or die, no matter to us.”. This is not coming next week, but well within the working life of the millennial crowd.

    I really, really wish this view of the near future was impossible, or improbable, or not under development, but it is not impossible, it is not improbable, and the Big Boys have directly referred to plans similar to this many times, without any denial or blushing.

    We won’t own anything, and we will be happy. They aren’t talking about Bezos, Gates, Soros, or Schwab when they say that.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Brian Reilly


    Pretty soon now the proles won’t own anything, won’t need to buy anything, so (in theory) there won’t be anything for them to buy, thus no need for cash or even money.
     
    That won't happen. The only function the proles serve is to consume, but it's a vital function in an economy based entirely on consumption. The proles have to be given enough digital money to keep buying consumer goods.
  17. When the US monetary system goes totally digital…Americans will lose a large part of what little freedom and privacy they have left.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Realist


    When the US monetary system goes totally digital…Americans will lose a large part of what little freedom and privacy they have left.
     
    As far as most younger people are concerned that's a feature not a bug. Freedom and privacy are things only Boomers worry about.
  18. @Achmed E. Newman
    This is a more important issue than people think, A.E. Thank you for bringing it up. It's not solely about the ability of governments keep people from storing their wealth, aka, the years of their labor. The 2nd, and more sinister aspect of this, IMO, is that the cashless society will enable the Revelation Mark o' the Beast business in earnest.

    The young people just don't seem to care, and not so many of the older people either. For the young it's all about convenience over everything else. If you can't do it with your "telephone", then it doesn't need being done, is their thinking.

    One huge, huge, bar is missing here: CHINA. (We kindly request it in yellow.) China is going and has gone cashless in a decade.

    For more on this, I highly really recommend the middle part of the book We Have Been Harmonized, with PS's Part 2 on the rise of Xi Jingping, who is attempting to be a kinder and gentler Mao Zedong. Part 3 will come later today, which will be about Kai Strittmatter's observations of the Orwellian society that China has ALREADY BECOME.

    Early in the coronavirus catastrophe, the idea of extracting cash from the system was floated–it’s a disease vector, the dirtiest thing in society, you know!–and there were severe coin shortages all over the country, but the powers that be didn’t go through with it. Not yet, anyway. They’ll try again.
     
    I ran into that myself. I really thought this would be a big push for cashless. At various airport terminal eateries, they'd tell me that "we don't have change", "we can't handle cash, it's nasty and dirty" (that was very early on in this PanicFest), and a few times lately no particular reason was given. I've walked off before, and isn't there some law (haha, laws!) that say the businesses must take your American currency? Let's say I pay with exact change. Any lawyers or bright legal minds available? Commenter Adam Smith, pick up your white courtesy handheld telephone.

    Replies: @Adam Smith, @Adam Smith, @My SIMPLE Pseudonymic Handle


    Good morning Mr. Newman,

    I hope this message finds you well…

    isn’t there some law (haha, laws!) that say the businesses must take your American currency?

    I think you’re referring to the Joint Resolution of June 5, 1933…

    “Every obligation, heretofore or hereafter incurred, whether or not any such provisions is contained therein or made with respect thereto, shall be discharged upon payment, dollar for dollar, in any such coin or currency which at the time is legal tender for public and private debts.”

    “All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations) hereunto and hereafter coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, for public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues, except gold coins, when below the standard weight and limit of tolerance provided by law for the single piece, shall be legal tender only at valuation in proportion to their actual weight.”

    https://www.loc.gov/law/help/statutes-at-large/73rd-congress/session-1/c73s1ch48.pdf

    https://freedom-school.com/h-j-r-192.pdf

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Adam Smith

    Thanks, Adam. I knew you'd come through. (We were all counting on you.)

    I hate to tell you, but while you were on the white courtesy phone, your car was ticketed and towed due to NATIONAL SECURITY reasons.

  19. Some of us remember when we all were told that everything would soon be paperless.

    (We who were alive and adult already when this internet thingy became yet another mass public entity, like everything else you idiots take for granted.)

    Obviously that did not happen

    Now, here we go again. It will be “cashless.” That’s another word for “paperless,” in case you idiots can’t read or think.

    No, this will not happen, anymore than the physical world – “meat space” as some of you jerks like to call it — will magically disappear.

    This comment comes from a man who was first logged on to the internet in 1990, when it was all black screens and green letters and numbers. Probably many of you were not even born yet.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Buzz Mohawk

    It's happening in China, Buzz, right there and right now!

    "Paperless" was indeed slow to happen. I remember plenty of times over the last 25 years thinking, if we're going paperless, why is everyone printing out every damn thing he does on the computer, and why do we have reams and reams of paper here? However, it's changing rapidly. Every see a person under 30 write down a note, with a pencil or pen on paper? Go to the airport and see how much it really is paperless now.

    Yes, "they" want to get rid of cash. I want to get rid of paper currency too, but only when we go back to gold and silver, haha!

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @nebulafox

  20. @Achmed E. Newman
    This is a more important issue than people think, A.E. Thank you for bringing it up. It's not solely about the ability of governments keep people from storing their wealth, aka, the years of their labor. The 2nd, and more sinister aspect of this, IMO, is that the cashless society will enable the Revelation Mark o' the Beast business in earnest.

    The young people just don't seem to care, and not so many of the older people either. For the young it's all about convenience over everything else. If you can't do it with your "telephone", then it doesn't need being done, is their thinking.

    One huge, huge, bar is missing here: CHINA. (We kindly request it in yellow.) China is going and has gone cashless in a decade.

    For more on this, I highly really recommend the middle part of the book We Have Been Harmonized, with PS's Part 2 on the rise of Xi Jingping, who is attempting to be a kinder and gentler Mao Zedong. Part 3 will come later today, which will be about Kai Strittmatter's observations of the Orwellian society that China has ALREADY BECOME.

    Early in the coronavirus catastrophe, the idea of extracting cash from the system was floated–it’s a disease vector, the dirtiest thing in society, you know!–and there were severe coin shortages all over the country, but the powers that be didn’t go through with it. Not yet, anyway. They’ll try again.
     
    I ran into that myself. I really thought this would be a big push for cashless. At various airport terminal eateries, they'd tell me that "we don't have change", "we can't handle cash, it's nasty and dirty" (that was very early on in this PanicFest), and a few times lately no particular reason was given. I've walked off before, and isn't there some law (haha, laws!) that say the businesses must take your American currency? Let's say I pay with exact change. Any lawyers or bright legal minds available? Commenter Adam Smith, pick up your white courtesy handheld telephone.

    Replies: @Adam Smith, @Adam Smith, @My SIMPLE Pseudonymic Handle

    and isn’t there some law (haha, laws!) that say the businesses must take your American currency?

    The Joint Resolution of June 5, 1933 is not law. It’s public policy.

    I suppose one day “they” could change that policy. The new edict could say something about how we can no longer demand the discharge of payments in paper and coins as the digital tokens are the new currency and every obligation, heretofore or hereafter incurred, whether or not any such provisions is contained therein or made with respect thereto, shall be discharged upon payment, token for token, in any such digital currency which at the time is legal tender for public and private debts.

    But, for now, if you incur a debt or obligation you can discharge it with paper currency dollar for dollar. If you offer a business legal tender to discharge a debt, a business can refuse your offer, but your debt remains discharged under admiralty as you satisfied your obligation as per public policy.

  21. @Adam Smith
    @Achmed E. Newman

    https://y.yarn.co/7896d6d0-5a3b-42c0-bd74-af375aa29d53_screenshot.jpg

    Good morning Mr. Newman,

    I hope this message finds you well...


    isn’t there some law (haha, laws!) that say the businesses must take your American currency?
     
    I think you're referring to the Joint Resolution of June 5, 1933...

    "Every obligation, heretofore or hereafter incurred, whether or not any such provisions is contained therein or made with respect thereto, shall be discharged upon payment, dollar for dollar, in any such coin or currency which at the time is legal tender for public and private debts."
     

    "All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations) hereunto and hereafter coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, for public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues, except gold coins, when below the standard weight and limit of tolerance provided by law for the single piece, shall be legal tender only at valuation in proportion to their actual weight."
     
    https://www.loc.gov/law/help/statutes-at-large/73rd-congress/session-1/c73s1ch48.pdf

    https://freedom-school.com/h-j-r-192.pdf

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Thanks, Adam. I knew you’d come through. (We were all counting on you.)

    I hate to tell you, but while you were on the white courtesy phone, your car was ticketed and towed due to NATIONAL SECURITY reasons.

  22. @Buzz Mohawk
    Some of us remember when we all were told that everything would soon be paperless.

    (We who were alive and adult already when this internet thingy became yet another mass public entity, like everything else you idiots take for granted.)

    Obviously that did not happen

    Now, here we go again. It will be "cashless." That's another word for "paperless," in case you idiots can't read or think.

    No, this will not happen, anymore than the physical world - "meat space" as some of you jerks like to call it -- will magically disappear.

    This comment comes from a man who was first logged on to the internet in 1990, when it was all black screens and green letters and numbers. Probably many of you were not even born yet.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    It’s happening in China, Buzz, right there and right now!

    “Paperless” was indeed slow to happen. I remember plenty of times over the last 25 years thinking, if we’re going paperless, why is everyone printing out every damn thing he does on the computer, and why do we have reams and reams of paper here? However, it’s changing rapidly. Every see a person under 30 write down a note, with a pencil or pen on paper? Go to the airport and see how much it really is paperless now.

    Yes, “they” want to get rid of cash. I want to get rid of paper currency too, but only when we go back to gold and silver, haha!

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Thank you, A.E.N. I now understand what my father tried to tell me: You will see the same things I have seen, perhaps in another form, but the same. He was right, and you are right.

    , @nebulafox
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Singapore, too.

  23. @A123
    I have a hard time believing that gun shows will ever be cashless. No one wants government records showing that they have expensive firearms.

    It was eye opening when I first saw the antique collectors do business. Tens of thousands of dollars in cash changed hands in return for a few hard to find pieces. Way out of my league. Now that I keep an eye peeled, I see such transactions at every large show.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Cloudbuster

    Yeah, lots of cash gets passed along, and with the antiques and private in-State deals, those NICS checks are not required. I urge you though, A123, for your own good, not to believe that the “instant background check” program deletes everything about you after you get approved (or not). BS. Everything is saved somewhere.

    That’s just a word to the wise.

  24. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Buzz Mohawk

    It's happening in China, Buzz, right there and right now!

    "Paperless" was indeed slow to happen. I remember plenty of times over the last 25 years thinking, if we're going paperless, why is everyone printing out every damn thing he does on the computer, and why do we have reams and reams of paper here? However, it's changing rapidly. Every see a person under 30 write down a note, with a pencil or pen on paper? Go to the airport and see how much it really is paperless now.

    Yes, "they" want to get rid of cash. I want to get rid of paper currency too, but only when we go back to gold and silver, haha!

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @nebulafox

    Thank you, A.E.N. I now understand what my father tried to tell me: You will see the same things I have seen, perhaps in another form, but the same. He was right, and you are right.

  25. @songbird
    Maybe, that is the whole point of these attempts to make physical currency woke, like the "Diversity built Britain" coin. It might be to make people sick of physical currency, with its possible political messaging.

    Replies: @My SIMPLE Pseudonymic Handle

    “It might be to make people sick of physical currency, with its possible political messaging.”

    Is that possibly why Obama wanted to replace some dead white dude (Alexander Hamilton) with a dead black chick (Harriet Tubman).

    After doing an online search it seems they couldn’t make up their minds whether to put her on the US $10 or the US $20.

    I guess they liked Hamilton (Central Bank lover) better than Jackson (Central Bank hater).

  26. @Achmed E. Newman
    This is a more important issue than people think, A.E. Thank you for bringing it up. It's not solely about the ability of governments keep people from storing their wealth, aka, the years of their labor. The 2nd, and more sinister aspect of this, IMO, is that the cashless society will enable the Revelation Mark o' the Beast business in earnest.

    The young people just don't seem to care, and not so many of the older people either. For the young it's all about convenience over everything else. If you can't do it with your "telephone", then it doesn't need being done, is their thinking.

    One huge, huge, bar is missing here: CHINA. (We kindly request it in yellow.) China is going and has gone cashless in a decade.

    For more on this, I highly really recommend the middle part of the book We Have Been Harmonized, with PS's Part 2 on the rise of Xi Jingping, who is attempting to be a kinder and gentler Mao Zedong. Part 3 will come later today, which will be about Kai Strittmatter's observations of the Orwellian society that China has ALREADY BECOME.

    Early in the coronavirus catastrophe, the idea of extracting cash from the system was floated–it’s a disease vector, the dirtiest thing in society, you know!–and there were severe coin shortages all over the country, but the powers that be didn’t go through with it. Not yet, anyway. They’ll try again.
     
    I ran into that myself. I really thought this would be a big push for cashless. At various airport terminal eateries, they'd tell me that "we don't have change", "we can't handle cash, it's nasty and dirty" (that was very early on in this PanicFest), and a few times lately no particular reason was given. I've walked off before, and isn't there some law (haha, laws!) that say the businesses must take your American currency? Let's say I pay with exact change. Any lawyers or bright legal minds available? Commenter Adam Smith, pick up your white courtesy handheld telephone.

    Replies: @Adam Smith, @Adam Smith, @My SIMPLE Pseudonymic Handle

    As China goes so goes the US, especially in regards to going cashless.

    It will take about the same amount of time as it did in China.

    We already have systems in place to nudge this process along. Banks are now required to report large cash deposits/withdrawals. Carrying large amounts of cash can result in civil asset forfeiture if pulled over by the cops and the cash is found. You can only have Social Security electronically deposited now. Many companies now require direct deposit and if you want to pay by check you need to pay a fee. Federal and state programs like food assistance and unemployment payments are only available through direct deposit or debit cards. I’m sure many others can come up with a multitude of examples of being officially nudged in the direction of going cashless.

    While many vending machines currently offer the option of paying in cash they also include the ability to pay with cards and smartphones. Eventually, they’ll start removing the option of being able to pay in cash.

    And, as consumer goods, food, and fuel costs continue to increase the desire to carry around the cash to pay for these necessities diminishes by the year. So, by 2030 you can bet digital forms of payment will constitute the vast majority transactions. From what I’ve read digital forms of payments constitute 2/3rds of all transactions in the US.

    As for requiring FRNs as payment, no, they’re not required to accept Federal Reserve Notes as payment. It may say legal tender for all debts public and private but that doesn’t mean anyone has to accept them.

    If you decided to sell your car and would only accept gold and silver as payment you could do that. Of course that doesn’t necessarily force the buyer to indulge your demand. As you pointed out they can easily walk away. In the same instance you could also refuse to accept as payment anything other cash.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @My SIMPLE Pseudonymic Handle

    Thank you for the interesting reply, MSPH. I am not quite as pessimistic about this particular thing in America, because in this instance people vote directly with their money on it. As with the vending machines - I won't buy anything from one using plastic (course, I am not one of the young people who carry 1 dollar in their wallets).

    Peak Stupidity had a post a few weeks back called Hurrah for extra Credit Card charges!. Yeah, that's right. I'm all for them. I kind of like the irony of monopoly pricing schemes of the Big Biz CC companies giving retailers, gas stations in my example, an incentive to give the customers an incentive to pay cash.

    True, you may have to go inside the gas station store twice, occasionally waiting for those scratch & sniffle lottery suckers, if you want to fill up a vehicle that you are not familiar with the exact tank capacity of. Yes, of course, the young people, with their many aches and pains, are too lazy to do this. I don't mind. (Believe it or not, pre-paying at the pump only became big outside the ghetto and NY City in the summer of '08, when gas prices hit that all-time nominal-price high.)

  27. anon[325] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cloudbuster
    I have heard of businesses that refuse to accept cash because if coronadoom, but I have only encountered one so far -- the landfill nearest me. I had to take a load there earlier this week and it was card only. Ironically, as one might expect, the landfill is the filthiest place imaginable right at the dump face. All kinds of trash is there, of course, any amount of it possibly contaminated with coronadoom!

    Usually they have large dumpsters lower down for people like me with just pickup loads, but Tuesday they didn't. Don't know if that's coronadoom-related.

    I hate having to drive all the way up to the public dump face because of the stink and because of the danger that I'll drive over something that will puncture a tire.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @anon

    I have heard of businesses that refuse to accept cash because if coronadoom, but I have only encountered one so far — the landfill nearest me.

    Lol, that’s ironic. We should all savor these special modern moments. Perhaps some modern Gogol or Kafka will include them in a Current Year Fiction. Probably not, but one can always hope!

    The local FedEx shipping center is plastic only, no paper, and one customer indoors at a time, because PlagueDoom.

    I told the UPS dudes about that and they did a little riff about FedEx snowflakes. Multiple customers laughed. Politely, and through their masks, of course.

  28. @A123
    I have a hard time believing that gun shows will ever be cashless. No one wants government records showing that they have expensive firearms.

    It was eye opening when I first saw the antique collectors do business. Tens of thousands of dollars in cash changed hands in return for a few hard to find pieces. Way out of my league. Now that I keep an eye peeled, I see such transactions at every large show.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Cloudbuster

    Almost all the dealers at any gun show outside of antiques and black powder dealers are going to run a background check on you, so there’s going to be a record. It’s required by law. There is no “gun show loop hole.” If you sell more than, I think, five guns a year you qualify as a dealer under federal law and the gun shows are heavily scrutinized.

    As Achmed E. Newman says, you know they don’t delete all that info after the check. Also, the FFL holder has to hold your form for as long as he runs his business, then is required to turn his records over to the ATF if he ever shuts down.

    If you want to buy off the record, join a gun club, make some shooting buddies and earn their trust, then you can get word of mouth around about what you want to buy or sell. That’s completely legal in most states, just sales between private individuals.

  29. Switzerland has had negative rates for years, including on plain old checking accounts.

    That did lead to a higher demand in their largest banknote to avoid it. But it turns out people don’t much care, and the risks and inconvenience of holding large amounts of cash are worth paying 0.5% a year in negative rates to avoid.

    People pay a similar fee for the convenience of GLD and SLV over owning the physical metal directly.

    I don’t think you mentioned China. Derb reported on his last visit it was hard to buy basic things with cash, everyone used apps, mostly AliPay.

    The USA was the leader in dumping cash in the 90s and 00s. We used cards for small purchases Europeans used cash. I think we’re around the same now.

  30. @nebulafox
    I don't think that's a specifically Asian thing: older people in my family did that. The Depression caused a lot of people to distrust banks.

    Replies: @iffen

    The Depression caused a lot of people to distrust banks.

    Entrusting your money to someone or some company and not getting it back would tend to cause this.

  31. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Buzz Mohawk

    It's happening in China, Buzz, right there and right now!

    "Paperless" was indeed slow to happen. I remember plenty of times over the last 25 years thinking, if we're going paperless, why is everyone printing out every damn thing he does on the computer, and why do we have reams and reams of paper here? However, it's changing rapidly. Every see a person under 30 write down a note, with a pencil or pen on paper? Go to the airport and see how much it really is paperless now.

    Yes, "they" want to get rid of cash. I want to get rid of paper currency too, but only when we go back to gold and silver, haha!

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @nebulafox

    Singapore, too.

  32. When Obama paid off the Iranians he didn’t Venmo the money to them, they demanded and got cash. Hard currency is the best way to get a good deal on a car. Sellers play hardball until they see a thick wad of hunnerts. All of a sudden their “firm” price isn’t quite so firm.

  33. Re-India and Italy.

    This doesn’t seem to be a universal tendency, though. I looked to see if there was a similar poll for Russians: https://www.vedomosti.ru/finance/articles/2017/03/09/680428-80-rossiyan-protiv-ogranichenii

    Wording is different, but Russia’s figure on this question would be an astounding -63% (17% support vs. 80% oppose).

    Not that it is to Russians’ credit, just shows there is a lot of populistic idiocy there as in most countries.

    • Replies: @216
    @Anatoly Karlin

    A cope it might be, but anything else is an acknowledgement of our institutional powerlessness.

    Conservatives are treated with continuous cultural disrespect, and most just shrug their shoulders.

  34. Depositors pay financial institutions to hold their money…

    Don’t they do that already?

    If interest rates are at or near zero, do bank fees create a de facto negative interest rate?

  35. Anon[240] • Disclaimer says:

    Cashless massage parlors? Greasing the palm electronically of the guy in the tux to seat you at a nice table? Cashless tip to the tooth fairy? Electronic payments to to the entire underground economy of people who are in the country illegally? The tip jar on the piano at the piano bar or Nordstrom? Paying the drug dealer electronically for a fix. Paying a looter for the Nikes or Gucci bag he has just looted? As Dr. Fauci remarked in an unguarded moment, “This is not Taiwan.”

  36. @Anatoly Karlin
    Re-India and Italy.

    This doesn't seem to be a universal tendency, though. I looked to see if there was a similar poll for Russians: https://www.vedomosti.ru/finance/articles/2017/03/09/680428-80-rossiyan-protiv-ogranichenii

    Wording is different, but Russia's figure on this question would be an astounding -63% (17% support vs. 80% oppose).

    Not that it is to Russians' credit, just shows there is a lot of populistic idiocy there as in most countries.

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1242783925916884992

    Replies: @216

    A cope it might be, but anything else is an acknowledgement of our institutional powerlessness.

    Conservatives are treated with continuous cultural disrespect, and most just shrug their shoulders.

  37. @Brian Reilly
    Pretty soon now the proles won't own anything, won't need to buy anything, so (in theory) there won't be anything for them to buy, thus no need for cash or even money. All the Big Boys need is an accounting system. It is not related to value. Just sort of a binary "Your existence is allotted 2000 calories per day. Make it work or die, no matter to us.". This is not coming next week, but well within the working life of the millennial crowd.

    I really, really wish this view of the near future was impossible, or improbable, or not under development, but it is not impossible, it is not improbable, and the Big Boys have directly referred to plans similar to this many times, without any denial or blushing.

    We won't own anything, and we will be happy. They aren't talking about Bezos, Gates, Soros, or Schwab when they say that.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Pretty soon now the proles won’t own anything, won’t need to buy anything, so (in theory) there won’t be anything for them to buy, thus no need for cash or even money.

    That won’t happen. The only function the proles serve is to consume, but it’s a vital function in an economy based entirely on consumption. The proles have to be given enough digital money to keep buying consumer goods.

  38. o/t

    It says a lot about our failed state, that the Right is unable to find away of hurting Portland economically, which would end this malarkey.

    Instead our best effort was an un-optical parade which led to our people being killed, and then blamed for the violence.

    • Replies: @A123
    @216


    It says a lot about our failed state, that the Right is unable to find away of hurting Portland economically, which would end this malarkey.
     
    The SJW Globalists are already spraying themselves with the fire hose of financial destruction. If the "Right" brought a bucket of financial discipline, what do you think that would accomplish?

    If Blue Citizens, in Blue Cities, of Blue States, opt to burn their own Blue Stuff... Hey... States have Rights... Why should Team Red bring Federal Intervention?

    Letting Team Blue hurt themselves shows that the system is WORKING, not failing.

    PEACE 😇

  39. @Realist
    When the US monetary system goes totally digital...Americans will lose a large part of what little freedom and privacy they have left.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    When the US monetary system goes totally digital…Americans will lose a large part of what little freedom and privacy they have left.

    As far as most younger people are concerned that’s a feature not a bug. Freedom and privacy are things only Boomers worry about.

    • Agree: Realist
  40. @My SIMPLE Pseudonymic Handle
    @Achmed E. Newman

    As China goes so goes the US, especially in regards to going cashless.

    It will take about the same amount of time as it did in China.

    We already have systems in place to nudge this process along. Banks are now required to report large cash deposits/withdrawals. Carrying large amounts of cash can result in civil asset forfeiture if pulled over by the cops and the cash is found. You can only have Social Security electronically deposited now. Many companies now require direct deposit and if you want to pay by check you need to pay a fee. Federal and state programs like food assistance and unemployment payments are only available through direct deposit or debit cards. I'm sure many others can come up with a multitude of examples of being officially nudged in the direction of going cashless.

    While many vending machines currently offer the option of paying in cash they also include the ability to pay with cards and smartphones. Eventually, they'll start removing the option of being able to pay in cash.

    And, as consumer goods, food, and fuel costs continue to increase the desire to carry around the cash to pay for these necessities diminishes by the year. So, by 2030 you can bet digital forms of payment will constitute the vast majority transactions. From what I've read digital forms of payments constitute 2/3rds of all transactions in the US.


    As for requiring FRNs as payment, no, they're not required to accept Federal Reserve Notes as payment. It may say legal tender for all debts public and private but that doesn't mean anyone has to accept them.

    If you decided to sell your car and would only accept gold and silver as payment you could do that. Of course that doesn't necessarily force the buyer to indulge your demand. As you pointed out they can easily walk away. In the same instance you could also refuse to accept as payment anything other cash.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Thank you for the interesting reply, MSPH. I am not quite as pessimistic about this particular thing in America, because in this instance people vote directly with their money on it. As with the vending machines – I won’t buy anything from one using plastic (course, I am not one of the young people who carry 1 dollar in their wallets).

    Peak Stupidity had a post a few weeks back called Hurrah for extra Credit Card charges!. Yeah, that’s right. I’m all for them. I kind of like the irony of monopoly pricing schemes of the Big Biz CC companies giving retailers, gas stations in my example, an incentive to give the customers an incentive to pay cash.

    True, you may have to go inside the gas station store twice, occasionally waiting for those scratch & sniffle lottery suckers, if you want to fill up a vehicle that you are not familiar with the exact tank capacity of. Yes, of course, the young people, with their many aches and pains, are too lazy to do this. I don’t mind. (Believe it or not, pre-paying at the pump only became big outside the ghetto and NY City in the summer of ’08, when gas prices hit that all-time nominal-price high.)

  41. @216
    o/t

    https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/status/1336772312322822144

    It says a lot about our failed state, that the Right is unable to find away of hurting Portland economically, which would end this malarkey.

    Instead our best effort was an un-optical parade which led to our people being killed, and then blamed for the violence.

    Replies: @A123

    It says a lot about our failed state, that the Right is unable to find away of hurting Portland economically, which would end this malarkey.

    The SJW Globalists are already spraying themselves with the fire hose of financial destruction. If the “Right” brought a bucket of financial discipline, what do you think that would accomplish?

    If Blue Citizens, in Blue Cities, of Blue States, opt to burn their own Blue Stuff… Hey… States have Rights… Why should Team Red bring Federal Intervention?

    Letting Team Blue hurt themselves shows that the system is WORKING, not failing.

    PEACE 😇

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