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COTW from JohnnyWalker123:

America (and probably even more so Canada) are becoming increasingly expensive, competitive, and anti-social. That has all sorts of interesting implications.

Imagine a society full of young people working long hours for low wages, deep in debt, living in tiny apartments/pods (or with parents), eating vegan, “socializing” through a smartphone, afraid of being accused of sexual harassment, staring at a screen for most of the day, and immersed in a pro-gay/lesbian/trans culture.

It’s not an environment conducive towards getting pregnant.

It doesn’t require much in the way of imagination anymore.

It is an environment conducive for electing a Democratic Socialist. though. Throw in the coming siege of the sexbots and pregnancy won’t stand a chance:

And another perfectly succinct one from SFG:

A conservative’s idea of a white supremacist is a guy with Nazi tattoos who lives in a compound by himself and stockpiles guns for the coming race war he intends to start. A liberal’s idea is a white person who doesn’t hate himself.

The latter sentence would have sounded hyperbolic even five years ago. Today, it almost sounds too tame–even whites who are ashamed of and hate themselves must be made to understand how they unwillingly work to uphold white supremacy anyway. We’re awfully close to having to drop the “who doesn’t hate himself” part.

 
• Category: Culture/Society • Tags: COTW 
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  1. Well, as an occasional border hopper I can tell you, when I go to the United States – Buffalo, Vermont, PA, Michigan – that when I cross I think holy shit, this is a whiteopia. People are socializing, happy, in couple, 95% white, and the average age is low. In Canada the only time you see a bunch of white people is if they are all Boomers. Y’all should enjoy this period because trust me it gets worse.

    It takes a 72,000 annual salary to properly afford a 1 bedroom apartment in Toronto. Yet the brown masses and white liberals keep voting for more immigration. And no, there is no white consciousness rising here. That’s been stamped out. Young white people just assimilate to become like blacks/arabs. Totally devoid of any substance except “OMG I can’t do ANYTHING to avoid embarrassing myself as a white person”.

    New subdivisions are over 90% “Visible Minority” – usually Indians.

    You’d better vote for Trump because he’s the only thing standing in the way of this repeated in America. love him or hate him.

  2. 216 says: • Website

    Oz/T

    Is there anywhere in our lands where we are accorded our fundamental rights of cultural self-determination?

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
  3. dfordoom says: • Website

    A conservative’s idea of a white supremacist is a guy with Nazi tattoos who lives in a compound by himself and stockpiles guns for the coming race war he intends to start. A liberal’s idea is a white person who doesn’t hate himself.

    Is that really true? It’s an article of faith on the dissident right, but is it true?

    Liberals are mostly white people. Do white liberals hate themselves? Liberals are also mostly urban and either rich or at least moderately prosperous. Do rich liberal white people hate themselves?

    I think it’s nonsense. This has nothing to do with race. This is the hatred of wealthy mostly white mostly urbanised people for anyone who isn’t wealthy or urban. White liberals are also mostly college-educated. This is the hatred of the college-educated for nasty working class people.

    White liberals don’t hate themselves and they don’t hate white people. White liberals hate rural people and they hate working-class people and they hate poor people. They can’t admit that they hate all people who are rural, working-class or poor so they direct their hatred towards rural, working-class or poor whites.

    This is class hatred. And there is no hatred as burning or as virulent as class hatred.

    Dissident rightists are obsessed with race and don’t want to admit that class even exists so they can’t see class hatred when it bites them on the ass.

  4. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    You’d better vote for Trump because he’s the only thing standing in the way of this repeated in America. love him or hate him.

    The problem is, he has not really done anything to stop this. H1-B visas are as plentiful as ever, and Indians, plus others, are coming here “leeeegally,” as he says, in numbers as large as ever, undercutting middle-class wages and destroying the ability of White Americans to start families and own homes.

    “We are doomed.” — John Derbyshire

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  5. Imagine a society full of young people working long hours for low wages, deep in debt, living in tiny apartments/pods (or with parents), eating vegan,

    This is another fallacy beginning to take shape. For most of human history, the vast majority of people lived in multigenerational huts and worked long and brutal hours scratching a living out of the earth, eating a diet that consisted mostly of vegetable foods. They did not have a problem getting pregnant. Throughout South Asia and Africa, several billion people still live like this, and they are the only ones known to get pregnant with any regularity today.

    It is entirely mistaken to think that you have to have a middle class suburban American lifestyle in order to start a family. Quite the contrary, in fact; for every possible reason, the spread of this lifestyle coincides with decreasing fertility. It consumes too many resources and far too much time during one’s reproductive prime, and it conduces to all sorts of sterile conformism and unrealistic expectations.

    Urban life is antinatalist in its very core. Children are not had, not because they are unaffordable, but simply because they are not wanted. And it isn’t because of LGBTQ-culture, which is a transient blip on the radar screen. This infertility isn’t going to end any time soon. Once demographic decline sets in it is nearly impossible to reverse, for purely mathematical reasons that take no note of anyone’s culture. Expecting today’s breeding cohorts to make up for the birth dearths of the past by having an average of 5 kids per couple is not realistic under the status quo. There must be—and will be—a complete socioeconomic reset first that will carry off the dead wood, reduce the global population by half, and liquidate the untold trillions of bad debt. By the time this is stopped, we will all be living in multigenerational huts and eating vegetables again, which is precisely what needs to happen.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  6. SFG says:
    @dfordoom

    I was exaggerating a little, I admit. I was responding to someone who was responding to a very silly celebrity tweet, who felt that not wanting to go to war with Iran was ‘trusting the Quds force more than ordinary right-wing Americans’, and my point was that 1. you don’t have to like Iran’s foreign proxies to think *going to war with them* is a bad idea and 2. equating right-wing Americans with white supremacists isn’t exactly accurate.

    It is true that the more aggressive variety of progressives sees all sorts of things as ‘white supremacy’ and is expecting more and more abnegation from whites, especially white males. But is class a part of it? Absolutely.

    The irony is that the upper-middle-class left increasingly makes this sort of masochistic self-hatred of the white race the ‘polite’, politically correct viewpoint, and looks down on deplorables who don’t feel secure enough to playact this sort of weird self-hatred. Reminds me vaguely of the whole ‘oh, how sinful I am’ Christians of a prior era always looking for some minor sin to feel guilty about (and I am not the first to say this).

    So yes, you’re totally right–it’s part genuine self-flagellation, part one of these weird class games where you’re supposed to pretend you hate yourself in a bizarre display of piety. Oh, there’s probably some component of a Jewish plot to prevent an Aryan consciousness from arising or get back for being barred from country clubs in the 1950s, but it seems to have metastasized since then.

    I never got it, but then I’m probably on the spectrum. To be honest, though, I never got the appeal of masochism–to quote an awful artifact of 21st century America some of the young’uns here may recognize, I prefer to do the tying.

    • Agree: Rosie
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @AaronB
  7. anon[339] • Disclaimer says:

    Liberals are mostly white people. Do white liberals hate themselves? Liberals are also mostly urban and either rich or at least moderately prosperous. Do rich liberal white people hate themselves?

    Where do you think “white guilt” comes from? Old Woody Allen movies?

    Perhaps class plays a role. But white skin is now original sin, and the best way to expiate sin is with scapegoats. Review the role of the scapegoat, then compare and contrast that with the treatment of US middle class and working class people by the self-annointed “elites”.

    Dude, it’s not ’68 anymore. Make a note. Put a sticky on your bathroom mirror: “2020, not 1968”. There’s a good lad.

    SFG
    The irony is that the upper-middle-class left increasingly makes this sort of masochistic self-hatred of the white race the ‘polite’, politically correct viewpoint, and looks down on deplorables who don’t feel secure enough to playact this sort of weird self-hatred.

    Exactly. Got it in one.

  8. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Urban life is antinatalist in its very core. Children are not had, not because they are unaffordable, but simply because they are not wanted.

    Yep. Add capitalism and consumerism to the mix and you’re always going to get plummeting birth rates. People in the West are not having children because, for a variety of cultural reasons, they don’t want them. Or they just want one.

    Stopping immigration will have zero effect on this. Offering financial incentives will have very minor but basically insignificant effects. Making housing cheaper will have very minor but basically insignificant effects.

    You can make valid arguments against immigration but immigration has nothing to do with declining birth rates. Declining birth rates are a result of the kind of society that we, as white people, decided we wanted. We made the choice. We were not the victims of a conspiracy. If you want modern lifestyles and you want capitalism and you want consumerism you get very very low birth rates.

    The awful truth is that most people, given the choice, will choose one child or no children. No-one holds a gun to their heads and stops them from having kids.

    If you have a Third World lifestyle you’ll have lots of kids, but you’ll be living a Third World lifestyle because that’s the only way to compel people to have lots of children. So if you want to avoid demographic collapse, persuade everyone to adopt a subsistence agriculture lifestyle. If you think that’s a worthwhile trade-off.

    And we need to stop looking for villains to blame. The West got itself into this situation all on its own.

  9. dfordoom says: • Website
    @SFG

    The irony is that the upper-middle-class left increasingly makes this sort of masochistic self-hatred of the white race the ‘polite’, politically correct viewpoint, and looks down on deplorables who don’t feel secure enough to playact this sort of weird self-hatred.

    I like your point about playacting. Because that’s exactly what it is. White liberals actually think they’re the most virtuous most enlightened and wisest people who ever walked the Earth. They have zero actual self-hatred. Quite the opposite. There has never been a group of people in history with a higher opinion of themselves. They may have excessive self-love but self-hatred is not a problem for them.

    But they’re very good at playacting. When they say “white people” need to go extinct they mean nasty dirty poor white people, not good rich white people.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Dumbo
  10. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    Yeah, the Indians. They’re the ones. I was just at my boondocks shopping center and I swear it was over half Indians in there. I think Indians shop on Sunday night.

    And, just incidentally, why do they all seem so clumsy and miserable and clueless? It’s like shopping next to hundred well but non-descriptedly dressed Emmet Kellys.

  11. Dumbo says:
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    I saw plenty of white couples with children in Montreal, much more than you would see in, say, Los Angeles or New York. On the other hand, I saw also also many interracial couples, mostly white females with black males, some with children, and white males with asian women. Indians and Arabs appear to mix less with whites. I don’t know how it is in Toronto.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
  12. Dumbo says:

    immersed in a pro-gay/lesbian/trans culture.

    I don’t know how much the LGBTSWPLETC thing affects fertility. Maybe it simply lowers civilizational morale. I remember a couple of years ago I visited Oslo in a certain month which had been decreed “International Pride Month” or something like that, and the whole city (like most Western capitals during this period) was covered with rainbow flags. Even churches proudly waved it. It really felt like a city under occupation. Like the Rainbow Homo-Globo Army had taken over. And I think that’s perhaps the intention. “We’re here, we’re queer, we will never disappear.”

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  13. Dumbo says:
    @dfordoom

    White liberals actually think they’re the most virtuous most enlightened and wisest people who ever walked the Earth. They have zero actual self-hatred. Quite the opposite.

    As some commenter observed, “they don’t hate themselves, they hate you”.

    The whole immigration issue is really class warfare. The better-off can get cheap maids, drivers, and enjoy all kinds of restaurants while living in expensive neighborhoods or suburbs far away from the diversity; at the same time, they can despise the proles, who have to live next to the diversity and compete with them for jobs, as “racist”. It really is the best of both worlds: they get to explore cheap brown servants and still get to feel morally superior to poor white people.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  14. COTW! Awesome! LOL.

    Here’s an interesting article about how Netflix might be lowering the amount of sexual activity that couples engage in, as well as lowering the birthrate.

    From WSJ:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/three-words-guaranteed-to-kill-a-romantic-mood-lets-watch-netflix-11555863428

    Let’s Watch Netflix: Three Words Guaranteed to Kill a Romantic Mood
    Is streaming video responsible for America’s falling fertility rate? ‘One of us usually ends up falling asleep.’

    Once upon a time, Netflix dates were synonymous with romance, best captured by the viral hashtag #NetflixandChill, a euphemistic suggestion disguised as an invitation to watch TV.

    These days, the literal chill of the on-demand streaming video service is so great that some young couples call it the new birth control

    “The new birth control.”

    Here’s an article that credits Social Media with the decline of the teen pregnancy rate in England&Wales.

    Telegraph:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/12189376/How-teenage-pregnancy-collapsed-after-birth-of-social-media.html

    Have Facebook and Snapchat helped stop teenagers having sex? New figures show teenage pregnancies plunging to record low since social media explosion

    I really do believe that technology (Netflix, smartphones, video games, ipods, etc) is leading towards people socializing much less, which is lowering the amount of sexual activity taking place. Given that a fair number of pregnancies are unplanned and just sort of “happen,” less sex definitely translates into fewer pregnancies. It is therefore not surprising that teens (who have the highest proportion of unplanned pregnancies) have seen the most significant fall in their birthrates.

    Here’s an interesting chart that shows how birthrates have changed by age.

    Three age cohorts show a significant decline in their birthrates (15-19, 20-24, 25-29), with teens showing the sharpest decline. However, three age cohorts show a significant rise in their birthrates (30-34, 35-39, 40-44).

    For the younger age groups, there seem to have been two inflection points. One in the early 90s, and then another around 2007/2008.

    Perhaps 2 things are happening.

    1. Technology is leading towards less sexual activity, which is lowering the youth pregnancy rate.
    2. Fertility treatments are increasing the birthrates of older age cohorts.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  15. Dumbo says:

    I really do believe that technology (Netflix, smartphones, video games, ipods, etc) is leading towards people socializing much less,

    A lot of the main purpose of socializing, which is to create envy in others, promote your own status, etc, can now be done safely from a distance, in Facebook or Instagram or Whatsapp. But the secondary purpose, which is to find a romantic partner, gets much more difficult online.

  16. @dfordoom

    If you have a Third World lifestyle you’ll have lots of kids, but you’ll be living a Third World lifestyle because that’s the only way to compel people to have lots of children. So if you want to avoid demographic collapse, persuade everyone to adopt a subsistence agriculture lifestyle. If you think that’s a worthwhile trade-off.

    Exactly.
    No “culture”, no “moral values” necessary.
    It is simple economics.
    In the countryside, the more primitive the better, children are working in the fields form the earliest age.
    In the city, children are pure consumption goods.
    Like buying tractor vs buying Lamborghini.

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Replies: @Mark G.
  17. @Intelligent Dasein

    For most of human history, the vast majority of people lived in multigenerational huts and worked long and brutal hours scratching a living out of the earth, eating a diet that consisted mostly of vegetable foods. They did not have a problem getting pregnant.

    Those people are different from modern Westerners in many ways.

    -No access to birth control&abortion.
    -Almost universal marriage at a young age, usually arranged or semi-arranged.
    -Extended families provided a lot of support.
    -Children were seen as a precious commodity because they could earn income and support you in old age.
    -The culture was extremely pro-natalist and conservative back then.
    -Children often died young, so having lots of children was neccessary to make sure one made it to adulthood.
    -There were very limited recreational activites, outside of reproduction and family.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  18. Daniel H says:
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    You’d better vote for Trump because he’s the only thing standing in the way of this repeated in America. love him or hate him.

    Trump is NOT standing in the way of the great replacement. Trump is a Cuck, through and through. The only difference is that he is OUR Cuck. That matters to some people, but not to me.

  19. SafeNow says:

    The advent of the smartphone and other digital technology might be a cofactor in anti-natalist decision making. From the age of 3 or 4, the child might well be disengaged, inhabiting a more-urgent, and to him, a more-interesting, digital world. An alien. Who wants to chauffeur-around this brusque, charmless, detached robot? These are not your 50s / 60s kids.

  20. @Dumbo

    The city of Montreal is around 60-65% White, 35-40% Non-White.
    The Montreal suburbs are 80-85% White, 15-20% Non-White.
    The overall metro area is about 75% White, 25% Non-White.

    Indians and Arabs appear to mix less with whites. I don’t know how it is in Toronto.

    At least in Montreal, Arab men have a reputation as being aggressive sexual harassers. So women are averse towards being approached by them. As for Subcon (Indian/Pakistani/Punjabi) men, they don’t do well anywhere in Canada. Both Arab and Subcon women have lots of protective brothers, cousins, and community members guarding them constantly. So they’re off the market generally.

    Black men, on the other hand, have a reputation for being “cool” (thanks to the media, music, and sports). So they have an easy time with interracial dating.

  21. @dfordoom

    When you hear a white person babbling on about the evils of whiteness it’s easy to classify them as self hating. I tend to do it myself. But you are right. The woke don’t hate themselves. They hate the Deplorables. The Conservatives lost the Culture War but at least they know it. The Deplorables lost the class war and don’t even know there was one.

    Black Americans are not considered working class. They are POC. Perverts are not considered working class. They are gender fluid. Women are not considered working class although some of them are understood to be wives sisters mothers and daughters of working class Deplorables. Only white men who are not college graduates are considered working class and only they are universally hated by the woke.

    White and not white, men and women, have always had their differences and always will. But today’s great divide is between the woke and white working class men. And the woke, indoctrinated by what they call education, are merely useful idiots for the globalist oligarchs. The .01 percent. The ruling class.

  22. Dumbo says:
    @dfordoom

    Urban life is antinatalist in its very core. Children are not had, not because they are unaffordable, but simply because they are not wanted.

    Yes, people prefer “lifestyle” over children. Religious families, perhaps because they are less materialistic than their secular counterparts, tend to prefer more children.

    I met a couple of white Catholic missionaries who had 12, 13 kids, in Germany of all places. They agreed that their level of “quality of life” if counted in terms of material possessions was much lower than average, but they, or the children, did not seem to mind.

    Also, as someone else here said, if you’re poor and live in the country children can be an asset, if you’re middle class and live in the city children are a cost and time-consuming.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
  23. neutral says:
    @dfordoom

    The awful truth is that most people, given the choice, will choose one child or no children. No-one holds a gun to their heads and stops them from having kids.

    Those jews in Israel are breeding rapidly, I don’t see them living the third world lifestyle. This argument that there are no villains to blame is just the typical jewish scapegoat narrative, the truth is that they really do control the mass media and they really have been pushing for this barren future for whites for decades.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  24. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Dumbo

    The whole immigration issue is really class warfare. The better-off can get cheap maids, drivers, and enjoy all kinds of restaurants while living in expensive neighborhoods or suburbs far away from the diversity; at the same time, they can despise the proles, who have to live next to the diversity and compete with them for jobs, as “racist”.

    Yes. The entire agenda of the white liberal elites – the global warming scam, the LGBTwhatever stuff, feminism, immigration, the obsession with sexual harassment, the paranoia about white supremacists – is class warfare. It’s designed to prevent the re-emergence of the Economic Left, to keep the populace distracted and demoralised, to punish working class people, to provide (as you say) cheap servants for themselves, and to make white liberals feel even more morally superior.

    It’s all class warfare. And for the most part the Dissident Right just doesn’t get it. The mainstream Right doesn’t care – they’re Economic Right/Social Liberal rich whites and they’re benefiting from all of this. Woke Capital enthusiastically funds it all. And still the Dissident Right doesn’t get it.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
  25. dfordoom says: • Website
    @neutral

    This argument that there are no villains to blame is just the typical jewish scapegoat narrative

    We (white Christian Europeans) created capitalism. We created consumerism. We created liberalism. We created the Industrial Revolution. We transformed our societies from agrarian to urbanised societies. We created a society that is now incapable of reproducing itself.

    We thought all those things sounded like good ideas at the time. Nobody had to persuade us to do those things. Those events were put in motion long before mass media existed.

    We didn’t realise the consequences. Now that we can see the consequences we pretend it’s not happening, or blame somebody else. It’s time to put on our big boy pants and take responsibility for our own actions.

  26. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    This is why life in Quebec is much better than in Ontario.

    The Maritimes used to be almost as white as Maine, and given the lack of economic opportunity I assume they are still fairly white? Anyone here been there recently.

  27. neutral says:
    @dfordoom

    The industrial revolution did not lead to population decline nor did urbanisation. The collapse in population happened right after ww2, which was by strange coincidence when jews gained total power over white lands. You want to argue that despite the jews running global finance, foreign policy, mass media, academia and pop culture that has nothing to do with anything, its all out of control forces instead…

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  28. dfordoom says: • Website
    @neutral

    The industrial revolution did not lead to population decline nor did urbanisation.

    They began the process. Birth rates were falling in countries like France in the late 19th century.

    And industrialisation and urbanisation have been ongoing processes. Today we’re much further away from traditional lifestyles than we were a hundred years ago, or even 50 years ago. Our lives are becoming steadily more artificial, more disconnected from nature. Our lives are becoming more and more dominated by technology.

    Population decline took a long time to bite because rapidly falling rates of infant mortality and longer life spans balanced things out for a long time.

    The collapse in population happened right after ww2

    That’s funny, I thought the Baby Boom happened right after WW2.

    Have you ever watched any of the movies and TV programs produced by the evil Jew-controlled mass media back in the 50s? It’s all family and children, family and children.

    The much later propaganda against families coincides with the rising power of the homosexual lobby in the media. Coincidence? I think not.

    • Replies: @fnn
    , @fnn
  29. Svevlad says:

    Naw, it ends exactly in an October revolution style slaughter

  30. AaronB says:
    @SFG

    White “self-hate”, as practiced by the wealthiest and most educated classes in the West, is largely a form of Noblesse Oblige. Whites had become so dominant and superior in every metric, that it was embarrassing. You didn’t want to run it in.

    When you are very strong and superior, the generous-hearted tend to be kind and compassionate to those who are less fortunate and inferior – it merely affirms your strength, that you have the luxury of not insisting on it.

    So it can be viewed as a kind of costly signalling – I am so superior, I don’t have to insist on it, and can generously surrender my superiority and allow you to feel good about yourself.

    Among a minority, it’s a moral phenomenon, which then spread to become a costly signalling device. Its perfectly natural – when it disappears, you will know the absurd supremacy of the West – with no parallel in history – is vanishing.

    There are other sides to the question, less important but still significant. Part of it is Romantic Revolt – the educated classes tend to be more sensitive than the laboring classes, and even as their wealth is built on capitalism and technology, they find these things aesthetically revolting on some level. At least from the 18th century, sensitive educated people made it fashionable to be deeply ambivalent about the new technological culture being created, and often spilling over into hate.

    So another element is deep aesthetic ambivalence about Western technology among the educated and sensitive.

    Another aspect of it is that anything pushed to an extreme begins to reverse itself – until 1914, Western pride and arrogance was enormous, and it led to catastrophe. So there is a sense of disgust with this kind of extreme pride and arrogance.

    One thing is for sure – it is not sincere. The self hating whites are supremely self confident and self loving. Their attitude is extreme – and it is a self correction of a previous extreme of arrogance. There is also, finally, a moral sense that find a expression in all religions that arrogance and extreme self love are wrong – one hopes that the extreme a of arrogance and self hatred will give way soon to a balanced attitude that avoids both.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  31. @Dumbo

    Is it true that modern people don’t want children?

    Desired tfr is above replacement levels in Europe. Yet it’s lower in practice.

    Who do people think are going to take care of them when they age? Life gets shittier and shittier physically as one gets older.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  32. AaronB says:
    @AaronB

    In the past hundred years, the pendulum swung from enormous and extreme arrogance towards self-abasement.

    The challenge for the West in the upcoming century I believe is to find the balance – neither extreme arrogance nor self-abasement, but simply being good human beings at peace with themselves and the world.

    But the self-abasement phase was a necessary catharsis – at least, extreme phases tend to be followed by their extreme opposites, as self-correction.

    So this phase won’t, cannot, last – but it still has some time to go. A larger economy shows that it was not accidental, but logically necessary.

  33. dfordoom says: • Website
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    Is it true that modern people don’t want children?

    Desired tfr is above replacement levels in Europe. Yet it’s lower in practice.

    Desired tfr is meaningless. What counts is what people do, not what they say they’d like to do. If people wanted children, they’d have them. The fact that they don’t tells us they don’t really want them. Not when they stop and think about how inconvenient it would be and how much it would cramp their lifestyles.

    Europeans have generous welfare states. There’s absolutely nothing stopping them from having kids, except for the fact that they don’t really want them.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Lol
  34. @dfordoom

    “Those events were put in motion long before mass media existed”

    Certainly in the UK, the post war baby boom happened before television was under total control of the ‘deconstructors”.

    The pill, legal abortion and decriminalisation of homosexuality coincided with the 1960-69 BBC reign of Hugh Greene (Graham’s brother and incidentally the product of a first cousin marriage). The Christian campaigner Mary Whitehouse saw all the pillars of British society under attack and was ridiculed in the media for her stand against increasing “permissiveness” (aka soft porn) on the BBC – but it was mild by the standards of what we see now.

  35. anonymous[105] • Disclaimer says:

    Imagine a society full of young people working long hours for low wages, deep in debt, living in tiny apartments/pods (or with parents), eating vegan, “socializing” through a smartphone, afraid of being accused of sexual harassment, staring at a screen for most of the day, and immersed in a pro-gay/lesbian/trans culture.

    Could somebody explain to me what the eating vegan part has to do with the rest? All of the rest are factors that depress real socialization, community building and ties, and the potential for romance, and sexual activity, but I’m not getting the role of veganism here, which if anything has the potential to create community ties among participants.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  36. @dfordoom

    To deny the massive Jewish role in the anti White narrative that’s been pushed since at least the 1960’s is dishonest to say the least. Don’t get me wrong, Christians have been very willing participants in their own demise but let’s not stray too far from reality.

    With or without Jews we’d be dealing with a lot of the same issues, largely thanks to Christianity, but we don’t need a hostile and aggressive alien race helping to foment that.

  37. @dfordoom

    Agree. The only historically significant dynamic taking place in the West today is the class struggle of money (represented by the oligarchy, i.e. the 1%, the big money party) against the “yeomanry” (the Church, the Fronde, and the peasants, the latter represented by the much beleaguered working class).

    The oligarchy is naturally allied with both the native born canaille (the 4th estate, i.e. poor blacks, white trash, sexual deviants, “victims”) and with the foreign parasites (“immigrants”), which they use as weapons against the independent claims of the yeomanry, but that is the extent to which SJWism figures as a political force. SJWism is entirely in the service of the oligarchy.

    That is why it is a complete waste of time to prattle on about HBD. Besides being scientifically illiterate horse manure, it is also irrelevant. Blaming the Jews is likewise a waste of time. The class struggle of money against property is the fundamental force driving everything.

    • Replies: @neutral
    , @dfordoom
  38. @216

    Tweet was removed. Any other links?

  39. It is an environment conducive for electing a Democratic Socialist. though. Throw in the coming siege of the sexbots and pregnancy won’t stand a chance:

    Joe Biden is going to pledge to massively reduce the student loan debt bomb burden destroying the ability of young White people to enjoy AFFORDABLE FAMILY FORMATION and that will help boost Biden in the Great Lakes states and Florida. Mestizos and Blacks will go for the reduction in student loan debt millstones too.

    Joe Biden will pledge to increase Social Security payments and that will win a lot of votes in the Great Lakes states also.

    The Democrat Party and the Green Party will promise the moon to grab back plenty of White voters who voted for Trump and the Republican Party.

    Trump and the Republican Party will be hobbled by millions of White voters joining and voting for the new political party called WHITE CORE AMERICA.

    White Core America pledges to do everything possible to make it easier for young White people to enjoy AFFORDABLE FAMILY FORMATION.

    White Core America will extinguish all outstanding student loan debt millstones immediately. Any and all student loan debt ever paid or repaid will be sent back to the loanees plus 6 percent a year interest. This will be paid for by a massive increase in the income tax for any person making half a million dollars a year or more and a massive wealth tax on those with assets over 1 million dollars. The corporate tax rate will go to 70 percent.

    White Core America will give each American with all blood ancestry born in the USA before 1924 or in colonial America ten thousand dollars a year — tax free. White Core America will order the newly-nationalized Federal Reserve Bank to conjure up the cash and it will be called the Pewitt Conjured Loot Portion(PCLP).

    White Core America will bring back the SPOILS SYSTEM in government employment and all government workers who do not have all blood ancestry born in the USA before 1924 or colonial America will be immediately fired and they will lose any and all benefits they expected to grab from the USA. White Core America will begin firing all government workers who have supported or campaigned for the Republican Party or the Democrat Party. The government worker gravy train will be for the benefit of the members of White Core America.

    White Core America will implement an immediate moratorium on all legal immigration and all illegal alien invaders will be immediately deported. There will be an effort to get the population back down to 220 million like it was in 1978. There are currently 330 million people in the USA and that is harming the ability of young White people to enjoy Affordable Family Formation.

    Trump and the rancid scoundrels in the treasonous Republican Party are doing everything they can to make it harder for young White Core Americans to enjoy Affordable Family Formation.

    I hereby challenge Trump, Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, Marco Rubio, Tom Cotton and any other Republican Party puke to a 4 hour debate on mass legal immigration, mass illegal immigration, trade policy, foreign policy, tax policy, the student loan debt millstone, health care policy, the concentration of media and wealth in the USA and any other damn thing.

    The Republican Party is bringing about a BARREN FUTURE for young White Core Americans and they will be stopped in their evil and immoral efforts.

    The new political party called WHITE CORE AMERICA will bang it out bravely with the evil and immoral treasonites in the rancid Republican Party.

    God Bless The USA And To Hell With The Evil And Immoral Republican Party.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  40. Arclight says:

    Uh, some people are still having kids: https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/.

    It’s just that fertility is heavily skewed towards the low income, which are more diverse and lower IQ than the population as a whole (right now). We have a social welfare system that is designed to mitigate the consequences of being incapable or unwilling to do meaningful work, and to ensure a much lower infant mortality rate than is historically the case with the bottom half of society. Our ‘humane’ social policies of the last 100 years have ensured a future with a declining average IQ and in which social classes will become more or less locked into place thanks to assortive mating…which is just fine with progressives, since it’s a self-perpetuating resentment machine and provides a justification for their program of stealing from some to redistribute to others.

  41. neutral says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    The class struggle of money against property is the fundamental force driving everything.

    What a joke, the endless daily news stories about whites being discriminated, vilified and replaced mean nothing to you? It’s somehow about class struggle instead, I suppose you think all places that have majority black populations are failures because their workers have not broken their capitalist chains.

    The fundamental force is race.

    • Replies: @GodHelpUs
  42. Mark G. says:
    @another anon

    Children are not just consumption goods now but in recent years they have become increasingly expensive consumption goods. The courts generally don’t allow businesses to engage in testing in hiring due to disparate racial impact but tend to look the other way when businesses use school degrees when hiring. The result of this is that a college degree became practically required in order to get a good job. Once everyone had a degree they then had to start getting more advanced degrees to stand out so you ended up with an educational arms race. This meant that a parent would be faced with supporting a child into his or her mid-twenties and spending tens of thousands of dollars for schooling. If the child took out loans then the child would be stuck with paying them off for years and couldn’t afford children because of that. With the surplus of college graduates, it became even harder to pay off the loans since many graduates couldn’t get a good paying job in their field. I have a niece in her twenties and her and her boyfriend have told me a primary factor in preventing them from having children is the cost of paying off college loans and not being to find good jobs. When my parents graduated from college in the nineteen fifties they immediately got good jobs because there weren’t that many people with college degrees and the cost of college was low so they didn’t have any loans to pay off. Even if you didn’t have a college degree, factory jobs hadn’t been offshored yet and there were lots of people who raised kids on that. The result of this was that you had both a fairly high standard of living and a baby boom both at the same time.

  43. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Intelligent Dasein

    That is why it is a complete waste of time to prattle on about HBD. Besides being scientifically illiterate horse manure, it is also irrelevant. Blaming the Jews is likewise a waste of time. The class struggle of money against property is the fundamental force driving everything.

    It actually suits the purposes of the oligarchy for the dissident right to waste its energies prattling on about HBD and Jewish conspiracies. It makes the dissident right look even more stupid and ugly and unpleasant and it discredits any sensible opposition to the oligarchy. And the oligarchy is always delighted by anything that distracts attention away from the class struggle.

  44. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    It’s somewhat instructive to actually study a community that is actually well-to-do, but is disappearing and don’t really know what to do about it:
    In India, where most Zoroastrians live, the numbers have halved since 1940 to about 61,000. Every year, Mumbai sees about 850 Parsi deaths and roughly 200 births, with the largely well-educated and well-off group tending to marry late — or not at all — and opting for smaller families, said Mr Patel. Alarmed by the figures, and despite worries about a boom in the wider population, India’s government is about to launch an IVF scheme* for the Parsis, who have earned a reputation for good business sense and honesty.”
    https://www.thenational.ae/world/zoroastrians-confront-threat-to-their-existence-1.603546

    They certainly don’t lack for wealth:
    “India’s Parsis are one of the most successful minority and migrant groups in the world. They make up less than 0.005% of India’s population but three out of the country’s top 10 billionaires. They fled Iran and settled in India in the 10th century and have since played an outsized role in the evolution of India’s economy as pioneers of trade and industry.”
    https://blogs.wsj.com/briefly/2016/12/27/5-billionaire-families-from-indias-powerful-parsi-minority/

    Their IQ – as a community on its own – has been stated to be at Ashkenazi Jewish and Singaporean levels, though not sure about a serious study on the specifics. At least from what I remember reading from Charles Murray (too lazy to look it up right now).

    All of that going for them; you’d think they would figure out a workable solution.

    Peace.

    *This honestly reminds me about how the Chinese government is trying to get pandas to screw each other because they are dying off due to lack of caring about mating:
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/breeding-pandas-insanely-hard-1-180956401/

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  45. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    You’d better vote for Trump because he’s the only thing standing in the way of this repeated in America. love him or hate him.

    Trump has been screaming like a politician whore about flooding the USA with mass legal immigration “in the largest numbers ever.”

    Trump refuses to deport the upwards of 30 million illegal alien invaders in the USA.

    Trump has kept on with that “staple a green card to the diploma of foreigners” propaganda even though it will attack the interests of White Core Americans.

    Trump wants to flood the USA with visa foreigners and green card foreigners and student visa foreigners and anchor baby foreigners on tourist visas and Trump is allowing foreigners to pour into the USA.

    Trump and the Republican Party will be crushed in November by the new political party called WHITE CORE AMERICA.

    This deranged politician whore Trump is nothing but a prostitute for Jew billionaires such as Shelly Adelson and Paul Singer and Bernie Marcus and Les Wexner and Seth Klarman and others.

    The Jew billionaires that have bought and paid for Trump push mass legal immigration and mass illegal immigration and amnesty for illegal alien invaders. The Jew billionaires want to continue to use mass legal immigration and mass illegal immigration as demographic weapons to attack and destroy the European Christian ancestral core of the USA.

    The Jew billionaires that have bought and paid for Trump put the interests of Israel ahead of the interests of the USA and Trump is doing their bidding by running an Israel First foreign policy. The Jew billionaires want to continue to use the US military as muscle to fight wars on behalf of Israel.

    Trump and the Republican Party Can Go Straight To Hell!

    The foreigners and their spawn can be removed from Canada very easily and it wouldn’t take much time at all.

    The foreigners and their spawn can be removed from the USA very easily and it wouldn’t take much time at all.

    I am convinced that the globalized central banker shysters are engaging in monetary extremism of a scale never before seen in order to forestall the mass deportation of foreigners and their spawn that would occur if the asset bubbles were to pop.

    Canadians love central banking so much that a Canadian with Irish and British and Canadian citizenship is the Governor of the Bank of England.

    Monetary Extremism and Mass Immigration

    Debt and Demography

    Love is the answer? Of course, but forcibly removing foreigners and their spawn from European Christian nations is also the answer.

  46. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    This book changed my entire world view on technology always being a positive thing – a dogmatic assumption that I finally realized was bequeathed to me by a society that already may have well been past the point of being able to pull the brakes on its addiction to it:

    Neil Postman divides societies into different cultures and paths of development vis-a-vis technology. One thing I realized is the importance of keeping the society grounded in the spectrum between a “tool-using culture” and a “Technocracy”. Once you cross the “Technocracy” threshold it seems only inevitable that a culture will pass into the “Technopoly” phase – where there is no going back and technology becomes the end-all, be-all raison detre of the society itself:
    “With the rise of Technopoly, one of those thought-worlds disappears. Technopoly eliminates alternatives to itself in precisely the way Aldous Huxley outlined in Brave New World. It does not make them illegal. It does not make them immoral. It does not even make them unpopular. It makes them invisible and therefore irrelevant. And it does so by redefining what we mean by religion, by art, by family, by politics, by history, by truth, by privacy, by intelligence, so that our definitions fit its new requirements. Technopoly, in other words, is totalitarian technocracy.”

    “Technopoly is a state of culture. It is also a state of mind. It consists in the deification of technology, which means that the culture seeks its authorization in technology, finds its satisfactions in technology, and takes its orders from technology.”

    Other great quotes here:
    https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1511641-technopoly-the-surrender-of-culture-to-technology

    I highly recommend the book (or audio book) to anyone. It is a reasonably short and delightful read.

    Peace.

  47. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    This book changed my entire world view on technology always being a positive thing – a dogmatic assumption that I finally realized was bequeathed to me by a society that already may have well been past the point of being able to pull the brakes on its addiction to it:

    Neil Postman divides societies into different cultures and paths of development vis-a-vis technology. One thing I realized is the importance of keeping the society grounded in the spectrum between a “tool-using culture” and a “Technocracy”. Once you cross the “Technocracy” threshold it seems only inevitable that a culture will pass into the “Technopoly” phase – where there is no going back and technology becomes the end-all, be-all raison detre of the society itself:
    “With the rise of Technopoly, one of those thought-worlds disappears. Technopoly eliminates alternatives to itself in precisely the way Aldous Huxley outlined in Brave New World. It does not make them illegal. It does not make them immoral. It does not even make them unpopular. It makes them invisible and therefore irrelevant. And it does so by redefining what we mean by religion, by art, by family, by politics, by history, by truth, by privacy, by intelligence, so that our definitions fit its new requirements. Technopoly, in other words, is totalitarian technocracy.”

    “Technopoly is a state of culture. It is also a state of mind. It consists in the deification of technology, which means that the culture seeks its authorization in technology, finds its satisfactions in technology, and takes its orders from technology.”

    Other great quotes here:
    https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1511641-technopoly-the-surrender-of-culture-to-technology

    I highly recommend the book (or audio book) to anyone. It is a reasonably short and delightful read.

    Peace.

  48. Jay Fink says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    KooI still hear a lot of uninformed people making comments about teens these days being over sexualized, getting pregnant at 15 etc. When I tell them teen pregnancy is at an all time low they look puzzled. Overall this is the best behaved, least rebellious, least sexual generation of young people in my lifetime.

    I am an older Gen X and I see today’s teens as being the polar opposite of the generation right before mine…the younger cohort of boomers. They were living the sex, drugs and rock & roll lifestyle as much as any groups of teens. Today’s teens are glued to their phones and seem to hang out with their parents as much as anyone. I actually wonder if on some levels today’s asexual teens are worse off than the more rebellious generations? At least the rebels socialized a lot and gained social skills. Then again many are dying now from drugs and alcohol causing the life expectancy to go down for the first time.

  49. Talha says:
    @Jay Fink

    asexual teens are worse off than the more rebellious generations?

    Depends in the long run. If their divorce rates (assuming they get married) get back to something like pre-1960’s America, well then the lack of rebellious attitude may have been a good thing after all.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
  50. @Jay Fink

    It appears that alot of young men and women today project an aura of sexual confidence and experience in their language, fashion, and instagram but actually don’t get it in very often.

    Girls actually believe in promiscuity- they always expect men to have at least 20 bodies, thinking it’s as easy for us as it is for them.

    Drinking is also way down, even I as a moderate to light drinker am shocked when I see my peers have even less interest in alcohol than I do (sometimes i like a drink!) Boomers haven’t figured this out yet, it’s funny to see 50 year old guys downing shots at a social event while the zoomers only have a few.

    Weed use might be up but overall drugs are mostly used by the underclasses. Really the boomers, and gen x were the outliers in history. As our countries get less and less white there is less reason to be degenerate too… do you really want to go to the club when half the people there are Arab and black pussy sharks? No thanks.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
    , @Toronto Russian
  51. There is an opinion that the shrinking and passive population – of all the world, TFRs in Africa are rapidly falling too (https://stranger233.livejournal.com/43983.html) – will be necessary when the ultimate form of social inequality arises: inequality between short-lived commoners and functionally immortal (or having a lifespan of centuries) elites. They have to minimize the numbers of lower classes, and better replace them with robots, for their own safety.

    Knowing how the world works, it is safe to say that for 90-95% of people these opportunities (of augmentation) will be equal to zero, broad prospects will open up to 5-9%, and 1% will have an unlimited opportunity to realize their most exuberant fantasies. And it seems to me that this is a matter of some 50-100 years (i.e., everything will happen already during the lifetime of those who are now coming into the world).

    In such circumstances, it is better that the majority is content with everything (for example, gone into virtual reality). Otherwise, 1789 and 1917 will pale in comparison to what will happen.

    I do not expect horrors like a great (let alone nuclear) war, a global technological disaster, or the invasion of billions of Third World migrants. I think everything will be much more prosaic.

    As human labor is replaced by robot labor, it will become harder and harder for people to make money. Of course they will be provided with food and virtual fun, but hardly anything beyond this minimum. I look at today’s young people and see that the lower their social status, the deeper they go into virtual worlds. Perhaps, in one or two generations, they will cease to distinguish between virtual life and real life. Millions of people will simply fade among their gadgets.

  52. @Talha

    Late boomer and gen x parents encourage their kids to party and be degenerate. They still partake in the degeneracy themselves.

    Had a drunk 50 something bragging to me recently about how wild things were in the 80s… how many strip clubs he went to, how much drunk driving he did, etc… he seems like a sad and empty individual now but still trying to relive the glory days.

    The parents live vicariously through their teens and young adults. They believe the meme that society is so much more liberal now and wish they lived in this imaginary time so that they could ramp up the partying and sex even more.

    But as I’ve said before the party lifestyle is only possible around other white people anyways. One benefit of the demographic browning is that the boomer party life is going away. Getting shitfaced looks pretty dumb when you’re the only ones doing it.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Talha
    , @RadicalCenter
  53. Talha says:
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    One benefit of the demographic browning is that the boomer party life is going away. As our countries get less and less white there is less reason to be degenerate too…

    Well, there you go. If this in fact does help whites get back in shape and back on track, that will be a good thing. In survival of the fittest, adopting “fit” strategies is key. If whites aren’t wasting their time getting wasted, partying and sleeping around while brown people are, well then whites will simply come out on top. Avoid the Kool-aid – that is key.

    Peace.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
  54. @Talha

    Things do seem to be headed for equilibrium right now, as Sailer pointed out.

    The POCs are drinking more, partying more, dating more… and the whites are doing so less. Net gain: whites.

    Arabs and Indians ruin the clubbing scene just by being present. However, whites are ruining the “blackout drinking scene” by noticing that others like Arabs and Indians aren’t partaking (it’s only fun if everyone is doing it). Equilibrium.

    If this trend continues and 216 is right about the neo-Victorian feminism, then it’s certainly possible that whites will become the most conservative group while other races are liberalizing. The mid-2010s SJW craze (and mass immigration craze) is just another representation of the inflexible upper class WASP mindset. There are alot of lonely women out there.

    Too much rambling today but whatever.

  55. @Buzz Mohawk

    “The problem is, he has not really done anything to stop this. H1-B visas are as plentiful as ever, and Indians, plus others, are coming here “leeeegally,” as he says, in numbers as large as ever, undercutting middle-class wages and destroying the ability of White Americans to start families and own homes.”

    I recently popped into the Las Colinas (TX) WalMart and found myself instantly transported to Bangalore.

  56. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    Given the MASSIVE ongoing legal and illegal immigration into the USA in the past three years, Trump is not standing in the way of that same outcome here.

  57. it’s also the case in Japan and Korea, and they don’t have those same background factors as the west does.

    probably, a living thing cannot get too intelligent. there is a certain range of intelligence where it can continue to exist for millions of years. if it’s not intelligent enough for it’s environment, it won’t survive. but, once it gets too intelligent, it realizes it doesn’t have to do the thing it was programmed to do, and it goes and does something else.

    organic protein molecules program living things to make more living things. but once they’re smart enough to negate their own programming, they’ll prefer to go do other things. in a hundred years, they will start to disappear. nature prefers a range of intelligence not too low and, perhaps counter intuitively, not too high.

    this is what people expect with AI as well. once it crosses a certain intelligence threshold, it too will begin to ignore it’s programming. instead of doing what it was programmed to do, it will go do something else.

    so it’s possible that this is general principle of intelligence. a sentient thing cannot get too intelligent.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    , @nymom
  58. @Charles Pewitt

    Independent of whether I agree with your predictions and recommendations, how is that White Core America Party doing with its state-by-state ballot access efforts? When are the applicable deadlines to get a candidate on the ballot in various States?

  59. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    It would seem, though, that widespread overconsumption of alcohol is being supplanted by truly widespread use of marijuana — and some comeback of nicotine via a drastic growth in youth vaping.

    • Replies: @216
  60. @anonymous

    “Could somebody explain to me what the eating vegan part has to do with the rest?”

    Millennials are already mired in student debt, on low wages, unable to afford houses, and told by the media how fulfilling the pod or student room is for a 29 year old.

    Vegan is just another way for the poor guys to make a virtue of necessity, but our elites (few of whom are skimping on wagyu or lobster) have greater humiliations in store.

    “Hey, you know how bad for the planet eating meat is? The methane emissions, the rainforest flattened for beef grazing, the growth hormones, the antibiotics?”

    “Yes, I guess so”

    “Well, good news. You can still get all your protein requirements from insects! Try our new cricketburger and save the earth!”

    • Replies: @216
    , @Audacious Epigone
  61. 216 says: • Website
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Bit of a tangent, but lobster is only a luxury product due to transport costs. Prior to the 2oth century it was considered a low class food.

    Crustaceans are relative bottom feeders, and comparatively abundant, especially the farmed kind.

    Afiak, since lobster is neither freezed nor farmed, it is comparatively expensive outside of the Northeast.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  62. 216 says: • Website
    @RadicalCenter

    The crackdown on vaping has been rather abrupt, and even the age of tobacco purchase was raised to 21 just recently.

    While beer consumption (working class men, except craft beer) is down, wine (cat ladies) consumption is at record levels, and hard liquor consumption is also up.

    The one positive effect of legalizing pot is that it deglamorizes the drug. You can’t clout chase by doing something illegal and edgy they way you could in the 2000s. (See the films of Judd Apatow)

    The downside to pot legalzation is that it wasn’t made a state monopoly.

  63. @dfordoom

    Agreed. Instead of speaking the truth on the most important issues affecting and shaping our societies, such as Jewish power and racial differences, the dissident right should be regurgitating Marxist claptrap with a righty twist to it.

  64. @Talha

    Talha,
    Raising TFR is easy. The problem is that people need long run incentives that are stable, and are adjusted for inflation, not some $500 dollar benefit for food or some nonsense.

    A policy that I like is that if a middle class couple(or above in class) with no criminal background have a kid, a decrease in income tax of 5 percentage points for the duration of kid’s legal childhood.. If that kid lives till adulthood and is healthy and educated, then that decrease in income tax becomes permament. For every additional kid, a additional decrease in income tax of 5 percentage points.

    Not all would take the gig, but I feel like the ones who do, will have many, many kids…

    Bonus, with ancestry testing, you could make it based on race, for all the agitated White Nationalists here…

    To change effectiveness, change the parameters, instead of 5 percentage points, make it 10 percentage points.

    Or, you could do a punitive tax like the Soviet Union:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_on_childlessness

  65. Lol says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    You can reverse this demographic trend by letting childless of old people die instead of looting the young to give welfare to morons who destroyed their own countries. Western governments spend times more on old people than on children by taxing the working young, essentially redistributing resources from the next generation to the past one.

    I currently work two thirds of the year for the government so for the small cost of no public services, I could work just 4 months.

  66. @prime noticer

    Supplant ‘intelligent’ with social. We have not gotten more intelligent in the last 100 years, but much more social, law/rule/norm abiding, and nonviolent.

    • Replies: @prime noticer
  67. SafeNow says:


    Updike’s Rabbit said: The only reason to have kids is so that, when you are lying in that hospital bed with your final illness, you are surrounded by your own DNA. While Rabbit wss a flawed character, Updike might have been presciently onto something. In any event, this photo contrasts sharply and sadly with the many vintage photos I viewed online of the traditional family meal.

    • Replies: @Old Prude
    , @Anonymous
  68. Lol says:
    @dfordoom

    Welfare is for blacks and poor whites so don’t be surprised these are the only people who have children. Western governments already loot the working young to the point where half the year or more you pay taxes, but seven times more money goes to property owning old farts(who won’t sell because you’re paying for their utilities anyway) than to children.

    Boomers will have a surprise when those who work will get tired of paying them for ruining all these countries.

  69. Lol says:
    @dfordoom

    If I didn’t work 8 months a year to fund my government, I’d afford the same lifestyle with a child and a wife that didn’t have to work at all.

    I’d like kids, but you’re correct that theyre too costly it in today’s system where the entire purpose of society is to fund the benefits of dying idiots who destroyed their own countries.

  70. “A conservative’s idea of a white supremacist is a guy with Nazi tattoos who lives in a compound by himself and stockpiles guns for the coming race war he intends to start.”

    This is the idea all white Americans have been provided with by our friends in the media for decades – think of movies like American History X, Falling Down, Higher Learning, etc – so I’m not sure that that idea is exclusive to conservatives only. Leftists are increasingly seeing white normies as white supremacists (see iffen) as the scales of guilt fall from the latter’s eyes and they dare speak of it, but the two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

    As an adult I have lived in SoCal and the Chicago area and I work in the trades. I have never seen with my own eyes any white individual with any kind of white supremacist clothing or tattoos, like ever. White supremacists are about as rare as unicorns, Bigfoot, or the Loch Ness Monster.

    Throw in the coming siege of the sexbots and pregnancy won’t stand a chance:

    The problem with this conclusion is that it merely sums up low fertility as an unintended consequence of modernity. While true it’s only half the answer. There is also a subversive political and cultural force working to reduce fertility in the US and the West in general.

    • Replies: @216
    , @Audacious Epigone
  71. SFG’s comment should read:

    The race war they intend to start.

    However, credit where credit is due! The WN 1.0 guys who are tatted up and hang swastikas in their houses know eachother IRL and meet regularly. They have an actual command hierarchy. If the balloon went up, they could be a credible contender to take over local government operations in their area.

    • Replies: @216
  72. @Talha

    I think that all materialist societies eventually will become technocracies. In the past different civillisations had diffrent paths, but with the triumph of the technique, culture and ideology becomes less important. Ultimately it will mean that humans will have less freedom to chart our own course.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Big Dick Bandit
  73. 216 says: • Website
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    There is also a subversive political and cultural force working to reduce fertility in the US and the West in general.

    Most would say that East Asia is less effected by this subversion, yet their fertility rates are even lower. Even Iran has sub-replacement fertility, and the very purpose of the Iranian government is to prevent Westoxification.

    The propaganda just isn’t as effective as we think it is. Westerners are constantly bombarded with ideal sexualized imagery, but are more obese than ever. A far larger share of voters express nationalist sentiments, but don’t vote for nationalist parties.

    Thinking back to 2009-10, the Tea Party had lots of intitial success because of unintentional confusion about what it was. It was portrayed as populist “jobs, jobs, jobs”, rather than lolbertarianism. The Democrats keyed in on this confusion, and exploited it in 2012 by repeatedly demanding to pass a “jobs bill”. There were a non-trivial amount of people that thought “WPA and CCC” when hearing this message, even though it was never on the table.

    The easy solution to the fertility problem is to blame women for late marriage or not marrying at all. But this is politically unviable, unless older women are so desperate for grandchildren. Banning women from university until 25? 30? would drop the age of marriage and put fertility at Israeli levels. It is also wish fulfillment.

    It’s politically easier to blame porn, video games and committment phobic young men that refuse to signal provider status. We can also blame their relutance to do more domestic labor. Older women will eagerly sign on to this, and younger men are the least likely to vote so they won’t raise much opposition.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @dfordoom
  74. Jay Fink says:
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    Italy seems to be an extreme example of this trend. I see young Italian women really play up their sexiness on Instagram…much more so than the U.S or even other Southern European countries like France. They also project a happy and fine vibe. Yet from what I have read Italian women are not especially promiscuous, less so than American women. I have read PUA travel articles complain that game doesn’t work as well in Italy. Apparently ,even if few people are religious there these days, the Catholic Church teachings against sleeping around is ingrained into their culture and still has some impact.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
  75. 216 says: • Website
    @Not My Economy

    Most of the listed hate groups are often nothing more than a P.O. box.

    The WN types with power are either prison gangs, or biker gangs. They don’t answer to a perfumed dilletante intellectual.

  76. GodHelpUs says:
    @neutral

    Obviously the racial problems are real, but the forces exacerbating them are the class interests of the super rich. This is a story as old as civilization. Divide and rule. When there are no external enemies left, the domestic middle classes become the chief threat to the power of the elites.

    This is what happened to the Roman Republic when they became the masters of the Mediterranean. The patrician class forgot their traditional virtues and became corrupt and decadent. They used their wealth to pervert the legal system and provide special concessions for themselves from the state, which sapped the strength of the citizen-farmer-soldiers who were the core of Roman society. Over time this led to depopulation of the native Roman people and their replacement with Germanic, Arab, Slavic, and Turkic invaders.

    The key point is that the class conflict produces the racial conflict.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  77. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    “It takes a 72,000 annual salary to properly afford a 1 bedroom apartment in Toronto. Yet the brown masses and white liberals keep voting for more immigration. And no, there is no white consciousness rising here.”

    Well, several years ago I made the mistake of moving to Toronto, choosing a place in the burbs to be closer to work. Ended up in an area with a ton of brown people. My mid-20s, white, red-haired girlfriend learned very quickly that you don’t want to be a white woman walking around in a brown area. Constant harassment, so much that she quickly bought a car to avoid walking on the sidewalk or taking the bus. We used to see cars of arab or paki males pull up next to bus stops and harass Chinese girls, calling them sluts and other such epithets. This was all shushed up in the name of ‘diversity’.

    It’s even worse now. Hijabs in High Park were completely unknown when I lived there.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
  78. Talha says:
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    it’s certainly possible that whites will become the most conservative group while other races are liberalizing

    Then they will take the crown, losers go home without a consolation prize.

    As I mentioned, the white converts I know are very traditional (many of them came from liberal backgrounds and used to be into the party scene) and are now family-oriented and have plenty of kids. The ex-Muslim apostates are absolutely losing it as far as demographic trends; these guys don’t really marry or have kids and they know it – which is why one of their famous guys quipped, “we’re after other peoples’ kids.”

    There are certain general rules of how to live life that have worked for generations, throw them out the window today in the name of progress and you are likely to be in the trash can yourself tomorrow.

    Peace.

  79. “Given the MASSIVE ongoing legal and illegal immigration into the USA in the past three years, Trump is not standing in the way of that same outcome here.”

    definitely a huge disappointment

  80. GodHelpUs says:
    @Toronto Russian

    This quotation reminds me of the story of the Tower of Babel. Man builds a city and begins to construct a tower tall enough to reach heaven so he can become a god himself. But God cannot allow this, so He smashes the tower and scatters the people by making them unable to understand one another.

    Maybe our present troubles are arising because we have permitted our rulers to try to build a tower to heaven?

  81. Rosie says:
    @dfordoom

    If you have a Third World lifestyle you’ll have lots of kids, but you’ll be living a Third World lifestyle because that’s the only way to compel people to have lots of children. So if you want to avoid demographic collapse, persuade everyone to adopt a subsistence agriculture lifestyle. If you think that’s a worthwhile trade-off.

    This kind of fatalism is very unbecoming a White man.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @dfordoom
    , @Anon
  82. Talha says:
    @John Arthur

    I like your ideas, they seem good, but this statement is hyperbolic.

    Raising TFR is easy.

    It is stubbornly difficult. This is the experience of many countries (across the world that have tried to raise it to above replacement rates. None have been successful that I can think of. The only one that has come close is Georgia, but a lot of that was due to the Orthodox Church throwing its weight in.

    Did the childless tax work in the Soviet Union? I thought the Soviet era collapsed TFR from which many “Bloc” countries are just recovering, no?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @216
    , @John Arthur
  83. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    That’s not fatalism – it’s thinking outside the box for a solution for a very difficult problem.

    If the solution is to de-urbanize – why not?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  84. Rosie says:
    @216

    The easy solution to the fertility problem is to blame women for late marriage or not marrying at all. But this is politically unviable, unless older women are so desperate for grandchildren. Banning women from university until 25? 30? would drop the age of marriage and put fertility at Israeli levels. It is also wish fulfillment.

    Good grief. How does this kind of stupidity go on in the teeth of the evidence?

    Israel doesn’t ban women from universities, so how do they manage. And why do White people not have children?

    Let’s ask Bill Nye the Science Guy.

    Oh.

    Anyway,

    I suppose any half-baked excuse for exclusion of women will do, even if it is totally unsupported by the evidence.

    • Replies: @216
  85. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    That’s not fatalism – it’s thinking outside the box for a solution for a very difficult problem.

    The fatalism consists on the assumption that there are no other solutions.

    White men don’t submit to the supposed laws of nature. They find innovative solutions.

    Indeed, I don’t even know that deurbanizing would help anything. Nor would excluding women from higher education. The fact is that the advent of artificial birth control has revealed people’s preferences. People just don’t want very many children. I think this is mostly a function of faithlessness. People ask, “Will there be enough?” Of course, you can’t know that there will, so free riding makes sense for the individual. Why not let someone else make the babies, but then noone does.

    By the way, the more educated a woman is, the more likely she is to be married by middle age.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2016/08/19/the-most-educated-women-are-the-most-likely-to-be-married/

    • Agree: 216
    • Replies: @Talha
  86. 216 says: • Website
    @Rosie

    Israel doesn’t ban women from universities, so how do they manage.

    They do conscript them for two years. And the draft has an exemption for married women.

    Israeli women marry two years earlier than American women, on average.

    (Graph 1) Less educated women having reduced fertility is not the worst problem we face, while in some respects it is sad, and regrettable that this was paved with taxpayer subsidized Pills; it nonetheless might reverse the dysgenic trends.

    (Graph 2) I consider IVF treatment to be only a few steps above “mad science”. This also doesn’t square with increasing credentialism.

    And why do White people not have children?

    Is reading comprehension hard for you?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  87. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    Girls actually believe in promiscuity- they always expect men to have at least 20 bodies, thinking it’s as easy for us as it is for them.

    There is no way to verify that number. One can make up whatever.

    In my culture, it is normative to pretend exes don’t exist. Asking or telling about them is Not OK. And a ladies’ man is not respected as a serious man. The type that chases skirt, to Russians, has something infantile in him. Even popular youtubers always present as self-sufficient guys engaged with the world and action, not with personal life.

  88. 216 says: • Website
    @Talha

    Israeli fertility ticked up from 2000, where Jewish fertility was 2.6 to where it is now 3.3

    Iran went from 6, to 6.5 after the Revolution and during the war with Iraq; but then the policy shifted 180 degrees and they crashed to below replacement faster than anyone else.

    Part of the stubborness to raising TFR might come from age of marriage. Having your children in your 30s-40s, as my parents did, is tougher than having them in your 20s as my uncle did.

    IMO, the East Asian societies with low fertility will eventually see it recover, assuming they don’t allow mass immigration. As wages increase, men will have more marriage value, and benefit from lower real estate costs. Typically a family has two children, or none. Improved living standards makes it possible for a third child, especially if the age of marriage drops by a year or more on average. Childcare might be eased with all the aimless elderly that need something to do.

    I don’t see how the post industrial society can manage a TFR above 3. Isolated countercultural groups are not nation-state level actors. Amishstan and Haredistan would adjust were they ever to exist. The key is not to wave around the fantasy of every weeb getting a Lauren Southern and 8 children. A realistic policy is to restrict immigration, and support universal primary education in the countries with recklessly high TFRs.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @JohnPlywood
  89. @Talha

    I read all of Neil Postman’s books as a teenager when Y2K was drawing nigh. It was a good antidote to the techno-utopian nonsense that saturated those days.

    • Agree: Talha
  90. Rosie says:
    @216

    They do conscript them for two years. And the draft has an exemption for married women.

    But a younger age at marriage doesn’t translate into a younger age-at-first birth. In Israel, it’s 27, as it is among White Americans, who have a much lower birthrate. So I don’t see any reason to blame women’s education.

    https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2016/01/14/cdc-the-median-age-of-first-time-motherhood-is-increasing

    Of course, we may have more women not having children at all, but then why is that?

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/19/college-educated-men-take-their-time-becoming-dads/

    • Replies: @anon
  91. @John Arthur

    Other way around. Cut off the elderly who did not produce children from social security. Give them a limited plan so they aren’t dying in the streets but that’s it.

    We have destroyed our nation to pay for the Boomers whose TFR dropped below replacement in 1973, yet still demand to be paid based on a system that assumes infinite growth.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  92. @jbwilson24

    DO NOT live in any brown burb lol. If you must, live in Burlington, Oakville, South Mississauga, Vaughan, South Etobicoke, Mid North York, or Toronto. Those areas are decently white. Markham and North York are fine, all Chinese, but it’s still kind of weird.

    Sorry you made this mistake. But I hope your gf and you are now much more redpilled.

    Crazy that white people think this is okay. We just shut up and take it. So do the Chinese, tbh.

  93. Talha says:
    @216

    Israeli fertility ticked up from 2000, where Jewish fertility was 2.6 to where it is now 3.3

    Yes, but I specifically mentioned a society that had gone to below replacement. NONE have been able to pull out of the nosedive completely, some have managed to get a better angle, but they are still crashing. It is truly a staggering thing to behold.

    I don’t see how the post industrial society can manage a TFR above 3.

    Not the problem – they need to get it out of places like 1.25 and 1.75; 3 is pure fantasy at this point.

    A realistic policy is to restrict immigration

    Check.

    and support universal primary education in the countries with recklessly high TFRs.

    Stop worrying about what others are doing. If you close the borders (this is critical), they can do whatever they please – no more white man’s burden nonsense; that’s what got us into the mess in the first place. The worry needs to be less about the kids Africans are having and more about the kids whites are not.

    Peace.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @216
  94. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    White men don’t submit to the supposed laws of nature.

    Gender confusion? Look, platitudes are nice and all, but there maybe a wisdom in those very laws.

    Indeed, I don’t even know that deurbanizing would help anything.

    Well, it’s certainly worth a shot. If not as a single policy, a potential policy among others. I don’t know why this seems like something not worth considering.

    People just don’t want very many children.

    Some people don’t. You did, I did.

    I think this is mostly a function of faithlessness.

    Sure – which may be a function of urbanization. I mean, I remember a Muslim scholar mentioning how people don’t even see the night sky in all its glory anymore due to the ambient light in an urban environment. Do you remember the last time you were out and saw all the stars without any distortion? I remember the time when I saw it most clear – on the way from Makkah to Madinah on a desert road. I mean it is absolutely phenomenal.

    It’s also a metaphysical question – rooted in this assumption of faith or not. If there are indeed laws – not “supposed” – in nature, then who exactly put them there? Revolt against nature is what then?

    I mean, I have no problems with white societies wanting to keep finding solutions to new problems created by solutions to older ones. It’s instructive at the least for the rest of the world.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  95. Talha says:
    @Hong Xiu Quan

    EXACTLY! Brilliant video – that’s exactly what Postman was getting at; once you cross a threshold, you no longer are in charge of the machine, the car is basically driving itself. While you are marveling at the spectacle, you are unaware of just how irrelevant you have become to the entire enterprise.

    There are so many interdependent components, it becomes almost impossible to extricate yourself from it due to the pressures. Especially when those pressures are of a military nature.

    Peace.

  96. @JohnPlywood

    humans got intelligent enough that they invented something that prevents them from reproducing. sometime in the 1960s.

    so yes, they did get intelligent enough to ignore their own biological programming.

  97. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Jay Fink

    I am an older Gen X and I see today’s teens as being the polar opposite of the generation right before mine…the younger cohort of boomers. They were living the sex, drugs and rock & roll lifestyle as much as any groups of teens.

    Surveys of sexual activity rely on self-reporting so they’re thoroughly unreliable. Boomers like people to think their lives were one non-stop orgy during the 60s and 70s. In fact they’re undoubtedly wildly exaggerating the extent of their sexual activity at the time.

    Millennials are probably under-reporting their sexual activity. All part of the all-too-common Millennial self-pity syndrome.

    If Boomers were the Me Generation then Millennials are the Woe Is Me Generation.

    There is absolutely no way of knowing how much sex any generation, or any social group, actually has. There is no single activity about which people tell so many lies.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
  98. anon[219] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    But a younger age at marriage doesn’t translate into a younger age-at-first birth. In Israel, it’s 27, as it is among White Americans,

    You may be confused. US women on average get married the first time at 27. Age-at-first-marriage is 27.

    If women in Israel are actually marrying on average at 25, then 27 as age-at-first-birth makes perfect sense.

    Given that 40% of children in the US are born to unmarried women, this may be moot in a decade if not sooner.

    @All
    TFR’s are down in most countries, by the way. It is a global event. There are many places online with estimates of TFR, they are not difficult to find with a search engine.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  99. dfordoom says: • Website
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    If this trend continues and 216 is right about the neo-Victorian feminism, then it’s certainly possible that whites will become the most conservative group

    Whites don’t exist as a group. They have no consciousness of themselves as a group called Whites.

    Some whites may become more conservative, some may not. The split is much more likely to be along class lines rather than race lines.

  100. dfordoom says: • Website
    @216

    The propaganda just isn’t as effective as we think it is.

    Agreed. People are deciding to have fewer children for their own personal reasons.

    It’s politically easier to blame porn, video games and committment phobic young men that refuse to signal provider status.

    Agreed. In a democratic society politics is not about solving problems, it’s about assigning blame. And the blame has to be assigned to someone else. Anyone else will do. It’s not my fault. It was the Jews. Or the blacks. Or immigrants. Or white supremacists. Or misogynists. Anyone but me.

    If people wanted more children they’d have them. People seriously do not want more children. They’re having the numbers of children that they want to have. Mostly that means one.

    Imposing punitive taxes on childless people in order to subsidise people with lots of kids is not going to be politically viable. It will just make immigration seem like a much more attractive option.

    The big problems you face are:

    1. Most ordinary people do not see declining birth rates as any kind of problem.

    2. Most ordinary people do not see immigration as a major problem.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  101. dfordoom says: • Website
    @GodHelpUs

    The key point is that the class conflict produces the racial conflict.

    Yep.

  102. Jay Fink says:
    @dfordoom

    But there is no lying in the plummeting teenage pregnancy rates. Sure some of the decline could be due to more birth control but less sex is also a likely (and my guess a bigger) factor.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  103. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosie

    This kind of fatalism is very unbecoming a White man.

    Living in the dream world that most dissident rightists inhabit is unbecoming a White man, or any normal person. Clutching at fantasies is childish.

    I’m not pessimistic. I think China will triumph and civilisation will survive. I think the US and Britain will become totalitarian hellholes. I’m hoping that Australia makes the sensible choice and realises its future lies with China. I’m an optimist!

    I’m hoping Islam will survive as well, although the US will try to ensure that it doesn’t.

    And the future is always impossible to predict. AI may change everything. Political alignments that seem permanent may fall apart. Apparently impossible political alliances may get formed. Once dominant political parties can implode completely, as the Socialists did in France. Even countries that seem doomed may not be.

  104. dfordoom says: • Website
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    Other way around. Cut off the elderly who did not produce children from social security.

    Why not just kill everybody you personally don’t approve of?

    And people wonder why the Right has a reputation for viciousness.

  105. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Jay Fink

    But there is no lying in the plummeting teenage pregnancy rates. Sure some of the decline could be due to more birth control but less sex is also a likely (and my guess a bigger) factor.

    Or more homosexuality. Or more deviant sex (like sodomy). Maybe oral sex is more popular today.

    Lower testosterone levels could also be a factor in lower rates of teen pregnancy. Maybe Millennials are mostly shooting blanks. Maybe Millennial women, due to exposure to particular hormones or chemicals or whatever, find more difficulty falling pregnant.

    Obviously less sex is the likely explanation, but we can’t be certain it’s the real explanation.

    • Replies: @hulijo
  106. “But there is no lying in the plummeting teenage pregnancy rates. Sure some of the decline could be due to more birth control but less sex is also a likely (and my guess a bigger) factor.”

    and the use of prevention methods.

  107. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    If there are indeed laws – not “supposed” – in nature, then who exactly put them there? Revolt against nature is what then?

    If I am bot mistaken, this a fundamental difference between Christians and Muslims. We have a progressive humanist bent that you all do not. Some call this “cocreatorship.” I know that must sound terribly impious to you, but there it is.

    • Disagree: Thea
    • Replies: @Talha
  108. Rosie says:
    @dfordoom

    The big problems you face are:

    1. Most ordinary people do not see declining birth rates as any kind of problem.

    Of course they don’t. In precisely those places where it is a pressing problem, no discussion about the issue is allowed.

    By contrast, in Israel, they’re allowed to talk about the importance of continuity for “the chosen.”

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  109. @dfordoom

    “It actually suits the purposes of the oligarchy for the dissident right to waste its energies prattling on about HBD and Jewish conspiracies.”

    I don’t know about the States, but in the UK people who are too vocal on the subject end up in prison, which tends to imply the opposite.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Sheppard_(activist)

    “His main website contains many articles about women, the multiracial society, and Jews, stating that they have negative effects upon western society and for white males in particular.

    He has been prosecuted three, and imprisoned four times for his ideology”

  110. @dfordoom

    “It actually suits the purposes of the oligarchy for the dissident right to waste its energies prattling on about HBD and Jewish conspiracies.”

    I don’t know about the States, but in the UK people who are too vocal on the subject end up in prison, which tends to imply the opposite.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Sheppard_(activist)

    “His main website contains many articles about women, the multiracial society, and Jews, stating that they have negative effects upon western society and for white males in particular.
    He has been prosecuted three, and imprisoned four times for his ideology”

  111. @dfordoom

    “It actually suits the purposes of the oligarchy for the dissident right to waste its energies prattling on about HBD and Jewish conspiracies.”

    I don’t know about the States, but in the UK people who are too vocal on the subject end up in prison, which tends to imply the opposite.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Sheppard_(activist)

    “His main website contains many articles about women, the multiracial society, and Jews, stating that they have negative effects upon western society and for white males in particular. He has been prosecuted three, and imprisoned four times for his ideology”

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  112. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosie

    Of course they don’t. In precisely those places where it is a pressing problem, no discussion about the issue is allowed.

    If people thought it was a pressing problem they’d have babies. No-one is stopping them.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  113. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    Arabs and Indians ruin the clubbing scene just by being present.

    That’s true.

    If you live in any metro area with a large Muslim or Subcon population, the clubbing scene will tend to suck. For these ethnic groups, the norm is for men go out to clubs way more than women, so they skew the gender ratios at all the clubs. They’re also very protective of their women too. So if you see a Muslim or Subcon woman out, it’s usually very difficult to approach her.

    In addition that, Muslim and Subcon men often approach in a very forward way, often being quite awkward and sexually crude. Muslims seem to have a particular tendency to commit sexual violence. So that weirds women out and gets them to put up their shields.

    This isn’t so noticeable in the U.S. (whose Muslim&Subcon populations are relatively small and fairly well-behaved), but you’ll see it much more in countries with higher proportions of these ethnic groups. Especially when you have less-educated peasant types coming over from the boondocks.

    If you think it’s bad in Canada, just look at Europe. In many of the large cities of Northern&Western Europe, Muslim peasants (and their surly children & grand children) have screwed up the club scene. Especially with hordes of young Syrian men and other young Muslim male refugees flooding in over the last few years, the sexual market has gotten much more difficult in Europe.

    The city of Toronto is about 9% Muslim. The city of Montreal is nearly 12% Muslim. Given how aggressive Muslims are around non-Muslim women, these proportions are enough to throw the sexual market out of whack.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
  114. dfordoom says: • Website
    @YetAnotherAnon

    “It actually suits the purposes of the oligarchy for the dissident right to waste its energies prattling on about HBD and Jewish conspiracies.”

    I don’t know about the States, but in the UK people who are too vocal on the subject end up in prison, which tends to imply the opposite.

    Which suits the purposes of the oligarchy. It discredits the dissenters. They can claim that the dissenters are dangerous extremists, maybe even terrorists, and therefore dissent needs to be suppressed. So it supports my point.

    It would be much more awkward for the oligarchy to have to be putting people into prison for pointing out that society is entirely organised for the benefit of the oligarchy. Ordinary people might think those dissenters have a point. Ordinary people think that people who waffle on about HBD and Jewish conspiracies are nutjobs. They don’t care if those people are put in prison.

    • Disagree: YetAnotherAnon
  115. @Jay Fink

    All the Southern Euro/Meditteranean nations are sexually conservative (Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece). Lots of protective fathers, brothers, cousins, male friends. Also, not much of a culture of binge drinking.

    Sort of a Europeanized version of a Middle Eastern or South Asian country.

    Women of Central and Northern Europe are more promiscuous, but the presence of lots of super sexually aggressive Muslim men is having a huge impact on the sexual market. Especially once local Muslims hit about a tenth of the local population, that can often significantly impact the sexual dynamics of a city.

    Even in a place like Sweden, lots of women can’t walk home intoxicated from the bars anymore. Too many aggressive foreign men who might try to attack them. So there’s an increasing tendency to ease up on drinking, party less, go out less at night. Islam is dampening down the sexual revolution in much of Europe.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  116. @216

    IMO, the East Asian societies with low fertility will eventually see it recover, assuming they don’t allow mass immigration. As wages increase, men will have more marriage value, and benefit from lower real estate costs. Typically a family has two children, or none. Improved living standards makes it possible for a third child, especially if the age of marriage drops by a year or more on average. Childcare might be eased with all the aimless elderly that need something to do.

    Wages cannot increase in a society with a declining and top-heavy population. As goes the largest spending and investing cohort in a nation (50-65 year olds), so goes the capital. And, just as we are seeing every passing year, wages decrease relative to purchasing power, and the cost of living and housing continues to skyrocket in Japan and the rest of the developed world.

    The situation you describe (increasing wages and decreasing housing costs) currently exists only in Africa and south/central Asian countries/Latin America. In the decayed society our women have created, all you can reap is death. All that has ever come from lowered fertility and populatuon decline is rot. That anyone would try to rationalize a victory in this damnable situation is very telling; you are definitely not of the good side of humanity.

    • Replies: @216
  117. @JohnnyWalker123

    As usual, everything you write is wrong and inverted. In Northern Europeans countries like Sweden, it’s immigrant females who are more likely to have been with local males.

    https://www.thelocal.se/20150402/single-immigrants-less-likely-to-settle-with-swedes

    >Only three out of ten immigrant women and nearly two out of ten immigrant men were in relationships with Swedes after five years.

    There ia nothing resembling a “protective” male culture in southern Europe; they are shut-ins who hide in mom’s apartment all day long.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
  118. Anon[930] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    fatalism is very unbecoming a White man.

    Take it up with this guy: https://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.html

    • Replies: @Rosie
  119. @JohnnyWalker123

    Lol. I’m not complaining about it, I’m saying it’s a good thing. We don’t need pretty northern euro girls getting hammered every weekend.

    The clubbing scene in England is just disgusting.

  120. @Talha

    True Talha,
    It is difficult to raise TFR with conventional policies, which is why everyone has failed to do so far.

    As for the Soviet Childless tax, the TFR of the Soviet Union was double the TFR for the post Soviet Union Russia. What was really shocking was that until just a few years ago, the Soviet Union has a higher per capita GDP than Modern Russia did, yet it had a much higher fertility rate. This was due in my view, entirely to the childless tax, as income is correlated with a lower fertility rate.

    • Replies: @Talha
  121. nymom says:
    @prime noticer

    Wow that’s scary…

    So the more intelligent you get the more likely you are to eventually die off. I guess than the dumber will inherit the earth and we’ll all revert back to living in huts and start the process of modernization all over again in an endless loop…

    It would be interesting to see who’s on first the next go around.

  122. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    We have a progressive humanist bent that you all do not.

    Yes, that would explain it.

    Some call this “cocreatorship.” I know that must sound terribly impious to you, but there it is.

    Less impious rather than incoherent according to our metaphysics – it would be more of a category error.

    But that’s OK – that would certainly explain the difference in approach. As I said, it’s at least instructive to see where this leads from the perspective of an outside observer.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    , @Thea
  123. Talha says:
    @John Arthur

    This is an interesting observation. But a few questions/points:

    1. The Soviet TFR could have been higher overall since it came at the beginning stages of a downward decline while the post-Soviet TFR was lower simply because it came later in that same decline. Do you have reference to a chart that maybe shows Soviet TFR according to decade? That would at least help us determine if Soviet policy helped boost TFR or was simply fortunate due to its particular place in history.
    2. Now if it is shown the childless tax helped to decrease the incline of falling TFR, that is well and good, but that still does not solve the issue I am bringing up which is; once a population’s TFR dips below replacement levels, no society has yet found a viable way to bring it back up. It may certainly be that we will see somebody fix this with government policies within our lifetimes – it’s certainly not impossible, but it simply has not been accomplished as yet.
    3. Any other place where the childless tax has worked?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @John Arthur
  124. @Talha

    Thanks Talia,
    I agree with you that no one has reversed below replacement fertility, though I am sure that someone will figure it out one day.
    1. Here is the fertility rate by decade in Russia according to VoxEu:Note that the tax was in place in the 1940s, and I have no idea what the fertility rate was before.
    Here is another graph showing a baby boom in the 1940s and 1950s, with fertility remaining above replacement until the end of the Soviet Union:Unfortunetly, the tax has not been implemented anywhere else, for various political and social reasons. So the Russian example is all we have to come up with.

    One thought: I think my proposal has the best chance of working, as it adds permanent benefits even after the child is raised. That way, instead of getting some help to raise a kid, it is treated more of a duty with personal benefits long after the duty as been fulfilled. Raising a kid is hard, and making it easier still doesn’t change the fact that it is simply easier not to a have a kid. The current system of making it easier to have a kid is simply foolish. It’s like giving free coffee at a very competitive Silicon Valley company, yeah it makes the job easier, but is it even worth to do it in the first place. But a long term payment in the form of permanent reduction in income tax upon successful completion is a different story altogether. The analogious situation would be stock in Apple after working there for some time successfully, that would benefit you long after you leave, and that pushes people to work there. The benefits of additional kids to the economy will overpower the cost of the reduction in tax.
    Making the benefits enduring upon completion of a task will make more people, even lazy ones, more inclined to have a kid.

    • Thanks: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
  125. Talha says:
    @nymom

    So the more intelligent you get the more likely you are to eventually die off.

    Possibly. There may simply be a healthy upper bound in human beings, beyond which we start to malfunction. Any individual trait may seem positive on its own, but at an extreme, might lead to detrimental effects. For instance take high-density muscle mass. That may certainly be good on its own, but if the caloric cost is just too much in a calorie-starved environment, it becomes a liability.

    we’ll all revert back to living in huts and start the process of modernization all over again in an endless loop

    It need not be that extreme. I mean go through China or Persia or India or Europe during the 16th century – these people were certainly NOT living in mud huts. Their architecture impresses us enough to this day that we call many of their best examples world heritage sites. Sure not everyone lived that way, but plenty did.

    Even in relatively remote places like Sumatra, the elite were able to have housing like this in the 17th century:

    People were having kids in the 1950s in the West; that’s certainly not MudHutistan.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @nymom
  126. Old Prude says:
    @SafeNow

    Dad’s tattoo. He’s probably wearing crocs. But then: two kids…Good on him.

  127. Audacious,
    There is one positive trend in America however. All the Whites having above replacement fertility are the Whites in the MidEast, and those Mormons. The White population is becoming more conservative and based as time goes on with respect to birthrates.
    So I think the White population may actually grow smarter over the years.

    • Replies: @Oblivionrecurs
  128. Talha says:

    Wow – great visual depiction of demographic change in the US over time:

    Peace.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  129. Talha says:
    @John Arthur

    The chart basically confirms what I was thinking. The Soviet policy didn’t exactly stave off the decline. The post-Soviet era kind of started on the tail end of it and has – for the most part – improved. I’m not sure if we can consider it (childless tax) to have been a successful policy given what we’re seeing. Maybe it will work; it would certainly be nice if others had attempted it.

    Raising a kid is hard, and making it easier still doesn’t change the fact that it is simply easier not to a have a kid.

    Except when you get older, then having your kids around to take care of you is quite a blessing. It is an investment into one’s future. You sacrifice your early years and will reap the reward in your later ones. Otherwise you have really tragic things like this happening (below MORE tag) where old people just die off and nobody knows until the body has half-decayed and the neighbors call the police. Or this, where prison is increasingly preferable to being alone outside:
    “Japan is in the grip of an elderly crime wave – the proportion of crimes committed by people over the age of 65 has been steadily increasing for 20 years.”
    https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-47033704

    My wife’s family knows of a Chinese lady that never got married, never had kids. She was flying all around the world visiting this and that place and doing exciting things. In her later years, she lived in one of those old-folks communities until she got Alzheimers. Now she is basically in bed most of the time and the only people she recognizes are my wife’s family – not even her own nieces or nephews. I doubt she even remembers any of the many places she visited either. Very tragic.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    • Thanks: John Arthur
    • Replies: @John Arthur
  130. Barren white wombs will be colonized by creatures like this. The elites are most to blame for pushing this craziness.

    https://www.bitchute.com/video/1mdxnwJ43Zur/

  131. Rosie says:
    @anon

    You may be confused. US women on average get married the first time at 27. Age-at-first-marriage is 27.

    I’m not talking about all U.S. women. I’m talking about White women, for whom average age at first birth is indeed 27.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/01/14/462816458/average-age-of-first-time-moms-keeps-climbing-in-the-u-s

    You have to remember, lower teen birth rates can drive up the average age at first birth even if most women are having babies around the same time as grown women in previous decades.

  132. hulijo says:
    @dfordoom

    A lot of other indicators are pointing in the same direction, young people are going out less, drinking less, pubs and night clubs are closing down, while people are staring at their screens a lot more. Who is going to have more sex, people who go out at night, drink alcohol and party or people who spend their days and nights staring at screens?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  133. Rosie says:
    @dfordoom

    If people thought it was a pressing problem they’d have babies.

    Nonsequitur. White people have a very deeply ingrained belief that one ought not have children until they are capable of supporting them.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  134. Rosie says:
    @Anon

    Take it up with this guy:

    Don’t get your theology mixed up with your social philosophy.

  135. @Talha

    Talha, I think actually the childless tax was a great success. Let me outline my logic here.

    I think the overwhelming evidence is that the poorer a people, the higher their fertility rate will be. That is why Western Countries are in such a predictment, and Africa is booming in population. If you check the graph above, as Russia grew wealthier, its fertility markedly collapsed.
    As you can see in that graph, the Russian fertility rate collapsed after the collapse of the Soviet Union and living standards dropped dramatically. This is actually what is the opposite of what is supposed to happen. My guess is that Russian fertility rates didn’t fall because the Russian standard of living collapsed, but that Russian fertility converged to what Russian fertility would be at that level of development. It is that the childless tax was boosting birthrates so much, that even after it was removed, the negative effect to fertility muscled out the positive effect of fertility caused by a sharp drop in incomes.

    This is the only plausable explanation for why Russia was the first country in history to have a drop in fertility even with a extreme drop in incomes.

    Remember, the childless tax was only 6% of a person’s wages. If the Russian stated wanted to, they could have made it bigger, like 13% of a persons wages, and the effect would have been much bigger.

    • Thanks: Talha
    • Replies: @John Arthur
  136. Anonymous[364] • Disclaimer says:
    @SafeNow

    The only reason to have kids is so that, when you are lying in that hospital bed with your final illness, you are surrounded by your own DNA.

    Of all the reasons to have kids, this is one strikes me as one of the dumbest. Anyway, if they are like the family in the photo, they will probably be looking at their phones next to the hospital bed. Perhaps posting a photo of dying dad to Fakebook (yes, I already saw people who did that).

  137. @John Arthur

    The rise in fertility in recent Russian years is the work of Putins pro birth policies

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @dfordoom
  138. nymom says:
    @Talha

    I’ve often wondered why 5,000 year old civilizations like the Chinese and Indian ones were so backward when the British finally reached them. Comparatively speaking China and India were far older civilizations than the western one which Britain represented at that time and had much larger populations…

    Yet they appeared helpless and were quite easily colonized.

    So this upper level of intelligence theory leading to a decline could explain some of this…

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @216
  139. Talha says:
    @John Arthur

    Well, if he gets it past the 2.1 mark, he is certainly the man of the century as far as Europeans are concerned.

    Peace.

    • Agree: John Arthur
  140. dfordoom says: • Website
    @hulijo

    A lot of other indicators are pointing in the same direction, young people are going out less, drinking less, pubs and night clubs are closing down, while people are staring at their screens a lot more. Who is going to have more sex, people who go out at night, drink alcohol and party or people who spend their days and nights staring at screens?

    Of course it is most likely true that young people are having less sex. But other factors may be having some influence.

  141. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosie

    White people have a very deeply ingrained belief that one ought not have children until they are capable of supporting them.

    Again you make the mistake of thinking of white people as a monolithic bloc. That may be a very deeply ingrained belief among middle-class people. Probably among middle-class blacks and Asians as well.

    The problem we have may be that middle-class thinking has become dominant.

    My great-grandparents on both sides were dirt poor and they bred like rabbits. And they were white. As the family rose slightly in the socio-economic scale birth rates plummeted.

    Not everything is about race.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Mark G.
  142. Talha says:
    @nymom

    Well, they were actually doing fairly well. Maybe not in comparison to the Europeans, but with respect to the rest of the world. India – specifically Bengal (one of the reasons that was colonized first) – was one of the richest areas in the world at the time.

    Yet they appeared helpless and were quite easily colonized.

    I’m not an expert on China, but I do know a bit more about India. The Indians might have actually fought off the British IF they had been united. Various areas of India were quite powerful during the gunpowder empire days. But they didn’t unite; instead they back-stabbed each other or were horribly uncoordinated in battle and went to join the British until the British ended up gobbling them up too.

    The Sultanate of Mysore was a good example of this – having held back the British for quite a while.

    For a terribly coordinated battle, look up Buxar; where about 1000 British along with about 9000 local Indian soldiers were able to rout a combined Muslim army of almost 3 to 4 times their size.

    It is a bit like Caesar’s invasion of Britain – the various tribes of the Britons simply weren’t coordinated enough and back-stabbed each other.

    Also, naval battles were a big thing in those days; on that front the British and Portuguese were unmatched. It is incredible what kind of blowouts those were. Local empires lost the backbone of their entire fleets within a single battle; the Battle of Duyon is a good example of that – Sultanate of Aceh got curb-stomped.

    It’s possible they got too smart and then just lost it, not sure. I mean, I don’t think there was a demographic collapse due to people not having kids or anything.

    Sometimes you get military blowouts like that where you wonder what the hell the other side was up to; Alexander is one such, the Rashidun expansion another, the Mongols yet another, etc.

    A lot of it also has to do with practice and learning from experience. The Europeans were constantly at war with each other and had to constantly up the ante to try to defend or outmatch their opponent. Basically, they had great sparring partners. When they went into battle against guys who were sparring at junior league levels, well – you see what happened. I remember reading about Muhammad Ali once that, one of the reasons he was such a good boxer was that his sparrign partners were class acts and excellent boxers themselves, like Larry Holmes.

    Peace.

  143. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    The Bosnians in our community are the most prolific; multiple families have 5 kids.

    Peace.

  144. Mark G. says:
    @dfordoom

    People seemed to have more of a love for children in the past. Talha said above: “People were having kids in the 1950s in the West; that’s certainly not MudHutistan.” The prosperity of that era didn’t lead to less children. It led to more. It seemed like everyone loved children and wanted to have them.

    Probably the most extreme example of this love of children occurred in Ireland. In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries Irish couples had incredibly large numbers of children and visitors to Ireland often commented in letters and travel reports about how much the Irish loved children. Having all these children may not have been wise since a potato crop failure would lead to mass famine but we seem to have gone to the opposite extreme where we don’t even have enough children to replace ourselves even though there is no chance at all of food shortages.

    So what happened since the nineteen fifties? I mentioned some economic changes that makes it harder to support children now in an earlier comment but why the big decline in the love of children? People often love them after they have them but resist the idea of having them in the first place. Does feminism teach women to disdain having children as a goal? Does the culture encourage men to be eternal adolescents who watch tv, play video games, and drink beer? The maternal and paternal instinct doesn’t seem to have entirely disappeared since large numbers of people have turned their pets into child substitutes but why isn’t this instinct channeled into having children?

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @216
    , @dfordoom
  145. Corvinus says:

    Wow, a number of comments from different posters to get to…

    “Today, it almost sounds too tame–even whites who are ashamed of and hate themselves must be made to understand how they unwillingly work to uphold white supremacy anyway. We’re awfully close to having to drop the “who doesn’t hate himself” part.”

    Hyperbolic statement. White people to YOU and OTHERS appear to be “ashamed” because they do not strictly adhere to your viewpoints; hence, the label is affixed that they must “hate themselves”.

    “To deny the massive Jewish role in the anti White narrative that’s been pushed since at least the 1960’s is dishonest to say the least.”

    I would say it is dishonest to say that the anti-White narrative is the direct result of Jews. Seems like victimization personified. I thought only women engaged in such actions.

    “Is there anywhere in our lands where we are accorded our fundamental rights of cultural self-determination?”

    Yes, the U.S. Constitution.

    “There must be—and will be—a complete socioeconomic reset first that will carry off the dead wood, reduce the global population by half, and liquidate the untold trillions of bad debt. By the time this is stopped, we will all be living in multigenerational huts and eating vegetables again, which is precisely what needs to happen.”

    No reset needs to take place. Although, if anyone would like to offer their specific courses of action to achieve this goal, I would entertain that notion.

    “And the woke, indoctrinated by what they call education, are merely useful idiots for the globalist oligarchs. The .01 percent. The ruling class.”

    Right, white people with their high IQ’s, high time preferences, and high levels of altruism are somehow easily manipulated and serve as the conduit to mayhem and destruction by their Jewish overlords. How can I be so foolish not to believe otherwise!

  146. 216 says: • Website
    @Talha

    Stop worrying about what others are doing. If you close the borders (this is critical), they can do whatever they please – no more white man’s burden nonsense; that’s what got us into the mess in the first place. The worry needs to be less about the kids Africans are having and more about the kids whites are not.

    I approach it from the angle of what is politically pragmatic, rather than a sandbox. One of the best arguments against refugee resettlement is that the money would be more effectively spent in their home or neighboring countries. Liberals and moderates are not about to suddenly lose their moral concern for outsiders.

    • Replies: @Talha
  147. 216 says: • Website
    @nymom

    In the case of China, the Ming Dynasty had cancelled the voyages of Zheng He as unprofitable, desiring to spend money instead on the northern border with Mongolia. The dynasty was then overthrown, iirc, by a defecting general who opened the gates of the wall to let the Manchus in.

    The Chinese imperial court was not interested in Western influence and inventions, and preferred a policy of isolation. China ran a trade surplus with the West, leading to a massive influx of silver bullion, which is why the British started smuggling opium. A country full of addicts is not in any position to develop.

  148. Rosie says:
    @Mark G.

    I mentioned some economic changes that makes it harder to support children now in an earlier comment but why the big decline in the love of children?

    How depressing is this?

    https://www.newsweek.com/fathers-fewer-kids-paternity-leave-study-1430136

    The fact is that even a SAHM is going to need Dad to take at least some paternity leave once a couple has a certain number of children. I would say by the third child, unless Mom has some other source of support, like sisters or a Grandma.

    • Replies: @Talha
  149. 216 says: • Website
    @JohnPlywood

    Japan has been risking deflation for more than a decade, and the Central Bank has been continuously buying government debt to prop up asset prices. The deflation was such an issue that Japan was allowed to conduct a major currency devaulation not that long ago with no international repurcussions.

    While not as well known, the Japanese have allowed in some foreign labor, and there’s more of it now than there was 10 years ago. This has mostly been in the least desirable jobs, which are presumably suppressing wage growth.

    https://howdoeconomieswork.wordpress.com/2017/07/02/why-are-wages-in-japan-not-increasing/

    The Japanese also have cultural factors that discourage wage growth, as salarymen don’t typically switch employers to earn more.

    I am unfamiliar with housing costs in Africa. The 2010s were something of a lost decade for Latin America, and they are looking at another one until Venezuela is fixed. Venezuelan emigres have suppressed wages and increased housing costs. Asia is more competive on manufacturing via lower wages, and much lower crime.

  150. @JohnPlywood

    I didn’t say Swedish women were dating immigrant men. I said that Muslim migrant men were harassing and raping Swedish women, which is affecting the dynamics of the sexual market.

    There ia nothing resembling a “protective” male culture in southern Europe; they are shut-ins who hide in mom’s apartment all day long.

    That’s just incorrect. Southern Euro (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece) are infamous for chasing women, while being highly protective of their own.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  151. 216 says: • Website
    @Mark G.

    Does the culture encourage men to be eternal adolescents who watch tv, play video games, and drink beer?

    Beer consumption is actually facing a secular decline. Craft beer is up, otoh.

    Wine consumption, driven overwhelmingly by women is at record highs. And something tells me that this isn’t people following the “Mediterranean Diet”.

    Important to note that in our society a select few are the trend-setters. They come from an upper or upper-middle class background, they attend selective institutions of higher indoctrination, live in expensive urban areas or suburbs, and often work in FIRE, media or tech.

    Overwhelmingly if you look at these people many are convinced of imminent environmental catastrophe. This hasn’t exactly stalled their consumerism, but it does provide a justfication for not having children, and a rationalization for their reluctance to marry.

    Above them, you have certain people in the upper class who “don’t preach what they practice”, where lifestyles are more traditional.

  152. Talha says:
    @216

    One of the best arguments against refugee resettlement is that the money would be more effectively spent in their home or neighboring countries.

    Well that’s a fair point.

    Liberals and moderates are not about to suddenly lose their moral concern for outsiders.

    Well, maybe they can be convinced into investing money into curbing African numbers through raising rates of abortion for the sake of women’s rights? Plus, they probably want to curb the number of conservative/traditional voices on the planet anyway, so it’s a double whammy:
    “Liberal Methodists Toss Out the Africans: The split in the UMC is complete and there’s more than a hint of condescension among progressives towards their black brethren.”
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/liberal-methodists-toss-out-the-africans/

    Peace.

    • Replies: @216
  153. 216 says: • Website
    @Talha

    Well, maybe they can be convinced into investing money into curbing African numbers through raising rates of abortion for the sake of women’s rights?

    I think there may have been cases where aid was conditioned on contraception access, but not on abortion.

    IIRC, only South Africa has unrestricted abortion laws in Africa. And that’s the product of an initial leadership cadre trained by the USSR and China, which isn’t representative of its own country. Generational turnover will see it closer to regional norms, as new generations of the elite are educated domestically.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mogoeng_Mogoeng

    Increasingly, the West is not going to have the heft to bend these countries anymore. Why should a Nigerian leader (pop 200 mln) defer to UK (pop 70 mln?). Botswana (strong armed into Poz) is something of a company town, but that’s no longer the norm as much as it was during the Cold War years.

    • Replies: @Talha
  154. Talha says:
    @216

    but that’s no longer the norm as much as it was during the Cold War years.

    Yup – case in point: Zambia.

    “In an escalating row over LGBT+ rights, Zambia has criticized the United States after a senior U.S. diplomat condemned the southern African country for sentencing two men to 15 years in prison for gay sex.”
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-zambia-lgbt-politics/u-s-faces-protests-from-zambia-after-criticizing-15-years-jail-for-gay-sex-idUSKBN1Y623Y

    When little old Zambia* is telling the US, “Up yours!” – you know something has changed. Good thing the plucky little country is not worth the trouble:
    “Zambia has no proven crude oil reserves – Nkhuwa [Energy Minister]”
    https://www.themastonline.com/2019/06/06/zambia-has-no-proven-crude-oil-reserves-nkhuwa/

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    *I’ve actually got a soft spot for Zambia; the branch of my particular Sufi Order often meets there for yearly conferences since it is a fairly open country without many political issues with other countries (for instance, neither Pakistan nor India would work because of visa issues for students from one side of the border or other) and centrally located for most of the students.

  155. dfordoom says: • Website
    @John Arthur

    The rise in fertility in recent Russian years is the work of Putins pro birth policies

    It could be simply the effect of having good government, compared to the atrocious government of the Boris Yeltsin era.

    Russian fertility is still catastrophically low. Which tends to indicate that low fertility rates cannot be fixed by pro-birth policies. At best such policies can cause a slight improvement, but nowhere near enough.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @John Arthur
  156. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Mark G.

    People seemed to have more of a love for children in the past. Talha said above: “People were having kids in the 1950s in the West; that’s certainly not MudHutistan.” The prosperity of that era didn’t lead to less children. It led to more.

    No, it led to fewer children. The Baby Boom was an artificial temporary spike. People who would have married and had kids during the early 1940s waited until the war was over. But families were still quite small. Judging by my peers at school the average number of children was two with one child being common. More than two was not that common. It’s just that because of the war an entire generation got married and had their one or two children at the same time.

    By the late 50s the Baby Boom had peaked and was subsiding.

    And family sizes had already dropped considerably in most western countries in the pre-war period.

  157. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    There has been a rise in religious sentiment in Russia as of late (since the Putin came to power). I’m sure this has some correlation, but perhaps not enough thus far.

    What’s interesting is that Georgia was able to get a boost in TFR due to religious influence:
    “Yesterday, I had an article at the Institute for Family Studies discussing a policy by Patriarch Ilia II of the Georgian Orthodox Church to personally baptize the 3rd or higher children of married Orthodox couples.* I showed that immediately after his policy became effective in 2008, there were sharply higher births of higher-parity children and higher births to married women. For these and a variety of other reasons, there’s compelling evidence to suggest that a social or cultural figure substantively altered baseline fertility patterns for the country of Georgia.”
    https://medium.com/migration-issues/did-the-promise-of-baptism-really-boost-fertility-in-georgia-cf534d92615c

    Unfortunately, because there are conflicting estimates and because there seems to be a decline again, it’s hard to say for sure whether Georgia truly has gotten out of the water or ever quite hit the replacement benchmark, but it did get a fairly good boost – all sources seem to at least agree to that. Yet, it is a hopeful sign, especially if the higher estimates are correct – so watch for that country to be the miracle country-that-could!

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    *Part of me wonders whether the Georgians just wanted to see the old man dunk those little guys; “Wake me up in the middle of the night with your crying, eh Jimmy? We’re going to see the Old Man!”:

  158. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    It would have been impossible for my wife to get her master’s degree without my mom coming over and spending two nights a week at our home (we lived around 20 miles away) when we had two little ones. Extended family support is crucial.

    Peace.

  159. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    There has been a rise in religious sentiment in Russia as of late (since the Putin came to power).

    That’s a controversial topic. There’s been a lot of discussion of it on Anatoly Karlin’s blog. It appears that it might be mostly illusory. New churches are being built but apparently church attendances are very very low.

    Paradoxically Russia’s best hope of survival is continued US hostility. That might fuel anti-American sentiment which could translate into a backlash against the Poz. If a nation would survive it must learn to hate America. It’s sad but the greatest threat to the world today is American cultural hegemony.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Audacious Epigone
  160. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    New churches are being built but apparently church attendances are very very low.

    Oh boy – that’s not going to be good a couple of hundred years from now:

    That might fuel anti-American sentiment which could translate into a backlash against the Poz. If a nation would survive it must learn to hate America.

    I really wish this wasn’t true, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to avoid this conclusion, and – as an American citizen – it’s actually extremely saddening.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
  161. @Talha

    Please do not consider Rosie to be an authority on Christian orthodoxy. There is no doctrine of cocreatorship and progressive humanism is the stuff of heretics.

    • Replies: @Talha
  162. Talha says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Please do not consider Rosie to be an authority on Christian orthodoxy.

    I don’t necessarily (because I know when it comes to Christianity, there are a quite a bit of divergent doctrinal interpretations when it comes to such things – especially when you get into the Protestant churhces), but her particular take did certainly correlate with her view about the white man not willing to submit to the “supposed laws of nature” – it was in that sense that I considered her take to be of explanatory value…in relation to her earlier statement.

    Peace.

  163. @John Arthur

    No state had a TFR for non-Hispanic white women that was at or above the population replacement level (2,100.0) in 2017. – CDC

    We’d be way more conservative if not for immigration, that said the purge of white leftist from white identity is here

  164. @dfordoom

    One note: Bad governments tend to lead to more kids as poverty actually increases fertility. So the rise in fertility in Russia despite an improving ecosystem is probably due to policy.
    Actually I think it is very possible to boost TFR, but that people just dont want to do it. Right now, people want underpopulated countries for the benefits of low population density.
    But if they wanted to, and were very serious, I think it could be done.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  165. @Talha

    They got 4 years of above replacement fertility, which has been dropping every single year since it spiked to 2.31 in 2014. It will be below replacement in 2018.

    • Replies: @Talha
  166. Talha says:
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    Why the hell are white people the most black-pilled about white people??!! What is wrong with you guys??!!

    I’m the brown guy from Pakistan rooting for Georgia (a mostly white Christian country) to get back on its demographic feet and you guys are pissing all over it!

    Well…I guess…
    Go ahead and jump.
    Well, you might as well jump.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

  167. @Talha

    In Montreal, they are converting old churches to nightclubs and bookstores.

    In Italy and Spain, there are beautiful cathedrals everywhere, with only a handful of elderly churchgoers and an occasional African migrant attending (other than tourists).

    Catholic leaderships just have no energy. I also don’t really understand why Europeans would just abandon the church completely; I think even going as a cultural Catholic is still okay. It’s a deep part of their people’s history and culture, whether they believe in God or not.

    I will be interested to see if Evangelicals start going the same way as Catholics and mainlines, it’s impressed me that they have been able to hold their numbers firm while every other type is dropping like a rock. The Southern Baptist Convention is now anti-white and pro-homo, and surprise, their numbers are dropping now too. But the good news is that churches are leaving the SBC to become independent.

    One thing I noticed about evangelicals is that they encourage manly behavior. Like they are allowed to joke around, be rough, own guns, whatever, as long as they don’t blaspheme, get drunk or commit adultery, basically. Catholic men strike me as dull and effeminate. Maybe that’s why. But with homo lover Greer in there the SBC at least, will not last long.

    • Replies: @Talha
  168. @Talha

    I am rooting for Georgia, but let’s not delude ourselves into thinking that 4 years of temporary, marginally above replacement fertility is the same as kicking off a white Trad Muscular Christian society.

    • Replies: @Talha
  169. Talha says:
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    OK cool – I agree about being cautious about declaring them being out of the morass (as my words indicated). It’s just that I saw a real pessimistic attitude in your reply, that’s all – sorry if I misconstrued it.

    Here’s hoping tiny Georgia is able to chart a viable course for her people and even present the world with a thing or two to learn.

    Peace.

  170. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    I’m the brown guy from Pakistan rooting for Georgia (a mostly white Christian country) to get back on its demographic feet and you guys are pissing all over it!

    It’s the pause before a new beginning. Old forms become hollow – they must die so they can live again.

    The only eternal thing is spirit – not the forms it is captured in. Those last only for a time. All forms are mortal.

    Islam and Judaism, the Chinese and the Japanese will – are – undergoing the same process.

    You must die so that you can live – all spiritual traditions attest to this.

    Islam will also die so it can live again – many of its old forms are now hollow, and it is in the self-destructive internal warfare phase Europe was in the early 20th century. It is a century behind Europe.

    But Islam will rise from the ashes purged of its dead old forms, but very different – as will Europe and America.

    Judaism died in the 18th century and was reborn. It is dying now again and will be reborn.

    A living thing cannot remain static, but must grow and adapt, experience many deaths and sloughing off of dead skin.

    Conservatives serve a useful , a necessary, part in any body politic – but on its own, it is merely death.

    • Replies: @Talha
  171. Talha says:
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    I also don’t really understand why Europeans would just abandon the church completely

    I get this, but it’s not that simple. I am part of a crew that runs our local mosque – there is a lot of time commitment involved. I volunteer for parking duties for Friday congregational prayer. I donate my money (which I could easily put to other uses) to multiple mosques and Muslim organizations area. I don’t do it for the fun of it. I do it because I 100% believe in the promise of God:
    “If you loan Allah a goodly loan, He will multiply it for you and forgive you. And Allah is Most Appreciative and Forbearing.” (64:17)

    “And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity: And whatever good you send forth for your souls before you, you shall find it with Allah: for Allah sees Well all that you do.” (2:110)

    I simply don’t know how many people are willing to make the time commitments for something they don’t really fully buy into. I mean, once you are asking for peoples’ money to pay for heating, water, repairs, etc. – you are talking real sacrifice here; it’s not cheap – especially for those older buildings (much more expensive). And that’s not including time commitment which they might rather do other things. So for instance, we have to commit to making Friday prayer and arrange our work schedules around it in the afternoon since we don’t get the day off. I’ll willingly lose my job for it, if that was on the line; but that’s because I believe in it and would rather obey God than my boss. However, if you don’t really believe in it, then it may be a pain to roll out of bed on Sunday and get dressed to go to church, even if you have the day off.

    There is another dynamic which may or may not be playing into this. In our religion, attendance for prayer in the mosque is either highly recommended (daily) or obligatory (Friday prayer) for men. It is always optional for women.

    However, in the polls I’ve seen, church attendance is more female than male by a breakdown around 40% male/60% female. That lends to a different outlook. Now, it may be a target rich environment for a young man looking for a religious wife – so that’s one advantage.

    But the good news is that churches are leaving the SBC to become independent.

    Did not know this, but it makes sense; what else can you do if they try to impose that from the top-down.

    Like they are allowed to joke around, be rough, own guns, whatever, as long as they don’t blaspheme, get drunk or commit adultery, basically.

    That’s good, sounds like a good, healthy environment for males.

    Peace.

  172. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Islam will also die so it can live again – many of its old forms are now hollow, and it is in the self-destructive internal warfare phase Europe was in the early 20th century.

    This doesn’t make sense in the Islamic context; the vast majority of all those internal problems are due to Salafi and Wahhabi interpretations from the 18th century or later – which were themselves reformation and psuedo-Protestant movements. It’s been nothing but an unmitigated disaster:

    You’ll never see a guy who is a follower of the traditional Maliki school (with its chain of transmission going back centuries to Imam Malik [ra] in Madinah) and a student of the Qadiri Order (with its chain of transmission going back centuries to Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani [ra]) do this kind of nonsense. I haven’t seen a single instance of this happening.

    One must know the details before attempting to apply a general statement upon a phenomenon.

    A living thing cannot remain static, but must grow and adapt

    Sure – no problems here.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  173. @JohnnyWalker123

    Looks like we have another #MeToo white woman on the Unz Review pretending to be a man again. The rate of actual rape in Sweden is lower than it was in the 1990, so no, they aren’t raping Swedish women Don’t bother quoting rape statistics as you’re clearly unaware of how Sweden broadened its definition of rape 15 years ago:

    https://www.thelocal.se/20170221/why-sweden-is-not-the-rape-capital-

    The rate of physical assault and murder in Sweden is also lower than it was 30 years ago.

    That’s just incorrect. Southern Euro (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece) are infamous for chasing women, while being highly protective of their own

    Such perverse and twisted ideas. And your only source is a staged photo by feminist artist Ruth Orkin, in which nothing eventful is even happening. In reality, multiple headlines call Italians “momma boys” and 3/4th of Italian males are unemployed NEET incels living in mom’s basement.

    Now watch some Italian TV you dick dodging landwhale, tell me how “protective” you think this is:

  174. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    I hear what you are saying. Protestant movements in the West also ended up being disastrous in my opinion. And modern reform movements in Judaism also weakened the faith.

    However, I think the rise of protestant reform movements indicate certain aspects of the old religion have become moribund. So they are a sign that something is dying. Even though reform movements can be destructive, their rise indicates something meaningful.

    I don’t necessarily see that as a bad thing in the long term. In the short term, it looks disastrous. It’s hard to see anything good in the self-destructiveness of the West in the short term.

    But if you see the universe as a system of dynamic balance – which I do, although some will disagree – then things have to die so they can be reborn, and in the long term, death is as necessary as life.

    A Christian Europe that never died would be a zombie. As a lover of classic European literature, it is clear that Christian bourgeois culture had become suffocating of true spirituality by the 19th century. To conserve that static culture without change would have been to keep alive a corpse.

    But to us living through the destruction phase, the apocalypse seems nigh.

    The situation is similar in Judaism – in the 18th century, it was dying from legalism – it needed a mystic revival. In the 20th century, it is once again in need of a death and renewal – it is not yet clear what shape this will take (Judaism reinvented itself many times in the past 3,000 years).

    Islam is still quite young – it has undergone some changes and adaptations so far, as any healthy and vital system will. Perhaps Sufism was the last great renewal within Islam that breathed new life into it. I may be wrong, but it seems to me by the 18th century Islam was due for some kind of death and reinvention – at least it was dying and had lost vitality. The current strife within the Muslim world seems like the fireworks before the death and renewal – much like Europe exploded in a burst of violence and seeming vitality before it embarked on its current mini-death – which, I believe, will be followed be renewal.

    May all of us survive our deaths well and take joy in our renewal 🙂

    • Replies: @Talha
  175. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    The current strife within the Muslim world seems like the fireworks before the death and renewal

    Not really. Though it does get to the news quite a bit that amplifies it; there simply is no parallel to the level of bloodshed in Europe due to the religious/sectarian wars. It’s not even close. by any metric; the proportionate numbers dead, the numbers of nations involved in the fighting, the geographical span of the violence, etc. The only places where there is serious violence is in the Levant which was kicked off by a complete breakdown of civil order by a foreign invasion – and then the fallout in bordering countries. And then you have Libya which may now be dying down, but was also kicked off by foreign intervention. Yemen is a Saudi thing which they do every few decades to show people just how incompetent their military is, just in case anyone is fooled by the numbers of dollars spent.

    The Salafi-Wahhabi thing (specifically the extremists, since not all Salafi-Wahhabis are extremists) is simply another one of these heterodox groups that rises up once in a while – causes a bunch of damage and then dies off. Look up the Qarmatis or the Almohads (who forced Maimonides to flee Spain). It happens every few centuries; we’ve dealt with this before – it’s not even all that surprising to someone who has studied Muslim history in depth.*

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    *

    • Replies: @AaronB
  176. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    You make some good points. Certainly the carnage is not comparable to world war period Europe.

    My general sense though that the last great iteration of Islam was the Ottoman empire, which went into decline in the 1600s after it was defeated in Vienna. In general when a civilization is no longer expanding and accumulating victories it is approaching a point where it is in need of renewal – and I think this is particularly true with Islam, where conquest plays a special role (in Christianity it is more incidental).

    Europeans noted the general apathy in Islam in the 18th century – and not just compared to their own dynamism. The disunion and strife plaguing the Muslim world today seems to me to embody a similar dynamic to Europe on a smaller scale.

    Of course I may be wrong – its hard to pinpoint when a civilization is just going through some difficulties or when its going through fundamental transformations and death and renewal.

    • Replies: @Talha
  177. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Well, Belloc basically said it was quite possible that Islam might rise again within a generation specifically because it had retained its spiritual foundation and core and that this was the most important thing for a civilization. We’ll see.

    In general when a civilization is no longer expanding and accumulating victories it is approaching a point where it is in need of renewal

    There is truth to this; but there are multiple approaches here and only one of them is military. There is mercantile expansion, cultural expansion and religious expansion. The people of Indonesia for instance came to Islam, not by military conquest, but by the efforts of the traveling Sufi-scholars like the Wali-Songo.

    There is a confidence I believe Muslims have right now because of that spiritual/religious expansion. And some Muslims may mistakenly attribute it to ourselves, but that’s not what I’ve been taught – it’s more confidence in reliance in Divine providence and promise. I spoke to my teachers about this and they are also astonished that, despite the apparent best efforts of some Muslims to repel them, people are still coming into this religion – I just came across the story of a Canadian woman who recently converted who is a blogger who travels the world alone on a motorbike. It is a phenomenal thing – my wife is about to start a convert class for women and we already have four sisters in our short time being open as a mosque.

    I mean we’re losing people for sure, but the kinds and quality of people we are losing and the ones we are gaining – it’s just night and day.

    Peace.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
  178. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Belloc is an interesting thinker but he is a classic conservative, and while I value that perspective I think its a bit limited. Conservatives tend to confuse form with spirit – they often try to preserve old forms, not realizing the spirit has fled.

    I think Islam will rise again not because it has preserved old forms, which I suspect may have become too corrupted – but because Muslims will find new forms for the old, good spirit of Islam.

    And more – they will develop implications of the spirit of Islam that have not yet been developed, as Islam is not that old. I do not think all the implications of Sufism have been developed yet. I do not see Islam as static – but like everything living, as still developing.

    You are definitely correct when you say expansion is not just military but has many dimensions. And on that score you have much to be satisfied with, if you are correct about converts.

    But a civilization that births a phenomenon like Isis (and the many smaller phenomena similar to it in Iraq and elsewhere) seems to me to have grown dangerously lopsided – and maybe, the next step will be a swing in the direction of the softer, more spiritual Sufi dimension of Islam and away from the military, and we can look forward to a few centuries of developing that side of Islam – which I regard as the core.

    I do think civilizations are locked in a dialectic – I don’t agree with Hegel that this leads to final point of perfection, or that each stage is a higher synthesis, but I do think there is a pattern where a civilization become a dangerously unbalanced in one direction, then corrects itself by developing the opposite side for a while.

    Well, I guess we shall see!

    • Replies: @Talha
  179. @JohnPlywood

    https://www.thelocal.se/20160308/backlash-begins-after-swedish-women-told-not-to-go-out-alone

    On August 30th, Sweden hosted the first “women only” music festival in the world. Entry to Gothenburg was forbidden to men. It was a “safe zone” reserved for women, trans and “non-binary people”, as they call them.

    The idea came to comedian Emma Knyckare a year ago, after the Bravalla festival ended with numerous complaints of sexual violence. And many of those cases involved refugees.

    As reported by the London Times, 36 percent of Swedish women admit they do not feel safe at night.

    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/14209/sweden-self-inflicted-mess

    In the picturesque Swedish university city of Uppsala, 80% of girls do not feel safe in the city center. One 14-year old teenager, who is afraid to reveal her identity, told the Swedish media that she always wears trainers so that she can ‘run faster’ if she is attacked:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45269764

    About 58% of men convicted in Sweden of rape and attempted rape over the past five years were born abroad, according to data from Swedish national TV.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6095121/Eight-10-stranger-rapes-Sweden-carried-migrants-study-reveals.html

    More than half of those convicted of rape or attempted rape in Sweden last year were born in a foreign country, new statistics reveal.

    In cases of rape where the victim was set upon and did not know their attacker or attackers, the figure rises to 85 per cent. Four in ten had been in Sweden less than a year.

  180. @JohnPlywood

    And your only source is a staged photo by feminist artist Ruth Orkin

    Followed by you “refuting” me by citing a single video, a video of an aggressively sleazy Italian man trying to seduce his unhappy wife.

    3/4th of Italian males are unemployed NEET incels living in mom’s basement.

    http://www.ansa.it/english/news/2019/09/10/26-of-italy-youth-are-neets-14-in-oecd_2f7ae0a2-424d-4eb6-a557-3324930e92a0.html

    Some 26% of Italians between the ages of 18 and 24 are not in employment, education or training (NEETs), compared to an OECD average of 14%, the organisation said Tuesday.

    See whether you can figure out if 26% is less or more than “3/4ths.” If not, I can help you with that.

    FYI, Italy is a nation of Silvio Berlusconis.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  181. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    But a civilization that births a phenomenon like Isis (and the many smaller phenomena similar to it in Iraq and elsewhere) seems to me to have grown dangerously lopsided

    I agree. These to me seem to be the death throes of Salafi-Wahhabi extremism – they have become so utterly grotesque that only the most disturbed of people are drawn to them. The Qarmatis would kill unarmed pilgrims going for Hajj and stuffed their bodies in the well of Zam Zam. The first iteration of these guys were the Khawarij (which is the pejorative we use for Daesh internally, linking them to their first spiritual forefathers) of which Imam Ibn Kathir (ra) said succinctly:
    “If the Khawarij ever gained power, they would corrupt the entire earth, Iraq, and Syria. They would not leave a boy or a girl or a man or a woman, for in their view the people have become so corrupt that they cannot be reformed except by mass killing.”

    I do think civilizations are locked in a dialectic

    It is impossible to stay completely static; there is always constant change. The balance is in grounding oneself in the unbreakable principles and remaining steadfast while bending like the reed in the wind when it comes to details. One extreme leads to fossilization, the other leads to being confused about your own gender.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  182. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Sure, and all religions have these people. Its hardly unique to Islam. In Jewish tradition the faction of the Zealots were responsible for the fall of Jerusalem. We also had the Sicarii, a band of assassins, who contributed. In 15th century Europe massacres and insane bloodletting for religious reasons led to the Reformation and ultimately modern liberalism. Even today some Buddhist monks in Burma are leading the persecution of local Muslims.

    However, when these factions gain strength in a culture it usually portends some sort of drastic development in that culture, as in the above examples, which may be good or bad. I am not prepared to say with certainty that Islam is on the cusp of such a development, just that going by history it might be. But you might be right and I might be off base on this – you know Islamic history and its patterns much better than I do.

    I hear your point about being grounded in principles, but I would say one must be flexible in this too, and recognize that the opposite of that principle also has some validity. And the spirit of the times may call for bringing some principles into the foreground while pushing others into the background.

    I guess I just don’t believe in being inflexible 🙂 A God who created everything, created a place for everything. But I hear where you are coming from and have sympathy for that perspective too.

    • Thanks: Talha
  183. @nymom

    “So the more intelligent you get the more likely you are to eventually die off.”

    not exactly. living things can get smarter and smarter over time for a long time and this makes them better at living, not worse. what matters is when they cross the threshold of being too smart. they can keep getting smarter, until they cross the line.

    in human’s case there must have been 200,000 years of not much difference from generation to generation, then around 10,000 years ago, they start getting smarter, slowly.

    smarter until they got to Egypt. then smarter again, until they got to Greece. then smarter still, until they get to Rome and China. during these time periods, every step up in intelligence is still beneficial. smarter people back then had more kids that survive and pass on their smarts to their kids than dumb people. less intelligent people have less kids that survive.

    this goes on and on until you get to about 1600. at 1600, this process is still continuing for all humans, except, now the smartest humans ever begin to appear. and you get people like Newton. so smart, that they begin figuring out how the universe works. so smart in fact…that they have zero interest in sex. and they find thinking, discovering, and calculating to be far, far more interesting than any woman.

    • Replies: @Talha
  184. so by 1700, we already have a few humans who are so smart they begin to ignore their organic chemistry programming. while not the case for all the smartest humans in this time period, this is when it first starts happening. Darwin, around in 1800, has one of the most important ideas a human has ever had – he also has a lot of kids, unlike Newton, who had zero.

    the smartening process continues for 99% of the rest of the humans in western europe from 1700 to 1900, until something strange begins to happen. by 1900 or so, humans are so smart that now even a few of the really smart people begin to do this no kids stuff sometimes, rather than just the smartest couple people who were alive doing it. and it begins spreading, down the intelligence ladder.

    some of it is due to the industrial revolution, and automation. more output per unit of time and effort put in. less humans farming, more doing manufacturing. the countryside beginning to depopulate, cities beginning to suck in more and more of the population. you need and can use less kids in those environments. but those developments are all due to increasing intelligence also.

    finally, you get to about 1960, and US chemists develop Enovid. and now, human women can have sex, but not conceive. and that is the beginning of the end, for the smarter humans. most of them will elect not to reproduce much, bringing fertility below 2 in short order, historically speaking. today, for the non-religious, it must be near 0, with the religious being the people who keep smart human TFR around 1.7 in the US. so the religious probably have 2 or 3 kids on average, while the non-religious people are having 0 or 1, giving you a mathematical mean of 1.7.

    so where was the threshold? where did humans get so smart that they crossed some kind of physics, entropy line that nature doesn’t support? was it 1600? 1900? 1960? i suppose any of those is a reasonable argument, as reproduction is downstream from any of those developments.

  185. @dfordoom

    There are people on the left who grasp how white white “privilege/supremacy/fragility” is a framework that allows the well-educated and the wealthy to express their disdain for the lower classes in a way that isn’t just morally acceptable but is laudable. Aimee Terese is one of the best–and I now see her twitter account is suspended. Wow.

  186. @dfordoom

    The ideal number of children people would like to have has changed very little while TFRs have declined. Responding on a survey that you want 2.5 children and making the life choices required to actually have them are of course two very different things. I’m not trying to invalidate your observation.

    It is interesting to note though that it’s not explicit anti-natalism that is to ‘blame’ for low fertility, it’s that having kids isn’t high on the priority list and it interferes with everything else that is high on that list. This is especially true in urban areas, where there are always things to do and places to go.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  187. @Dumbo

    If the whole society goes queer, though, we will disappear–oh, forget it.

  188. @prime noticer

    I’m kind of surprised when I see the studies showing that even liberals have a TFR of 1.4 children per woman in the USA. From my observations too, the liberal TFR is below 1 and will drop as more and more of them are adopting the childfree lifestyle. Hallmark of a liberal: no children, still drinking heavily despite being middle aged, and still hooking up thinking it’s a cool thing to do.

    Basically 50% of conservative-raised children become liberal… if you are right wing you need minimum four children, mathematically.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  189. @JohnnyWalker123

    I recall reading a blurb in the mid-nineties about the PC game Warcraft II that read “It’s the reason my wife and I stopped having sex.” It was a premonition.

    • Agree: JohnnyWalker123
  190. @JohnnyWalker123

    LOL @ this petulent little girl.

    https://www.thelocal.it/20161024/two-thirds-of-italian-millennials-live-with-their-parents

    Sixty-seven percent of 18-34-year-old Italians live with their parents, the latest figures from statistics agency Eurostat show, a figure almost 20 points higher than the European average.

    Only Slovakian youngsters are more likely to live with mum and dad.

    Meanwhile, in northern Europe, the vast majority of young adults live independently; 19.7 percent in Denmark, 34.3 percent in the UK and 34.5 percent in Germany.

    Across Europe as a whole, the proportion of youngsters living at home has seen an overall drop since the 2008 recession. But Italy bucks the trend; the percentage has crept up steadily each year, with a notable increase of almost two points between 2014 and 2015.

    Particularly notable is the high proportion (50.6 percent) of Italians aged 25-34 who live at home, a figure which has risen from 44 percent in 2011 and is almost 22 points above the European average, behind only Greece (53.4 percent). By contrast, in Denmark, just 3.7 percent of 25-34-year-olds live with their parents, compared to 10.1 percent in France and 39.1 percent in neighbouring Spain.

    Italian men are particularly likely to stay in the parental home, accounting for 73.6 percent of the total between 18 and 34.

    While high rates of youth unemployment are a likely cause, Eurostat notes that 40.3 percent of the millennials living at home were full-time workers.

    Students accounted for 18.8 percent of the total, while 24.3 percent were unemployed

    18% of under-35 Italian males are students, 24% are unemployed, and 75% live in mom’s basement.

    That spells “incel nation” and the extremely low birth rates of southern Euro countries bear that out, as does the hilaruous laundry detergent ad, which depicts Italian males as dimunitive betas contrasted against a superior African masculinity (ancestral memory?). Italy is not a protective or aggressive country by any means. I guess mom protects 75% of young Italian males from homelessness and they are notorious for their homosexual tendencies which can be pretty flamboyant.

    Nice try coping with the wildly varying reports about how women feel in city centers like Uppsala, which are less than 75% Swedish in the under-35s. In reality, in every country there is a delusion about crime and safeness, including the USA and Japan:

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/16/voters-perceptions-of-crime-continue-to-conflict-with-reality/

    https://theconversation.com/despite-japans-low-crime-rates-its-seen-a-number-of-mass-stabbings-in-the-past-decade-117910

    The media is responsible for the delusional perception of increasing crime in the developed world. Not criminals.

  191. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    White liberals have more children than white conservatives when you exclude hardliner conservatives who carry the bulk of the weight for their side. Only “extremely liberal” white liberals had less children than conservatives. P.s. where are you getting this 1.4 figure? Is it for Canadians? In the USA liberal fertility is above 2.2.


    According to multiple genetic studies, conservatives and Christians have entire chromosome deletions in areas that code for long term working memory, visuo-spatial reasoning and pattern recognition.

  192. Talha says:
    @prime noticer

    And you get people like Newton. so smart, that they begin figuring out how the universe works. so smart in fact…that they have zero interest in sex. and they find thinking, discovering, and calculating to be far, far more interesting than any woman.

    Leibniz and Pascal too – though Pascal had medical issues, if I recall. But yeah…really weird.

    Edward Dutton mentioned that it seems human beings have various categories in which they have greater of lesser strengths, but it’s not something where you can max out each category. Excelling inm one seems to detract from another; so – in this case – high marks in the “intelligence” categories will end up harming the “instinct” categories.

    Peace.

  193. dfordoom says: • Website
    @John Arthur

    One note: Bad governments tend to lead to more kids as poverty actually increases fertility.

    The idea that poverty increases fertility has a following but it’s unproven.

    Prosperity in the West has been accompanied by many other factors – urbanisation, capitalism, mass media, democracy, consumerism, the collapse of organised religion. Any of those factors might be contributing a lot more to fertility decline than prosperity. We don’t really know.

    We do need to be wary of Puritan explanations – that prosperity reduces fertility because prosperity is wicked. Puritan explanations are usually wrong. In the past rich people had lots and lots of children.

    I suspect that urbanisation and capitalism are the main culprits.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  194. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    Why the hell are white people the most black-pilled about white people??!! What is wrong with you guys??!!

    I’m not as black-pilled as some because I don’t actually believe population growth is either necessary or desirable. The only argument in favour of population growth is that markets must keep growing so that corporate profits can keep growing. That argument only has force if you accept the current model of capitalism as the only possible economic model.

    If you don’t accept that argument then population decline is not necessarily a bad thing. All you need to do is to ensure that it’s gradual. So instead of aiming at a TFR of maybe 2.5 you only need to aim for maybe 1.95 to 2.05 – just under replacement level.

    What you need to do is to convince people that GDP is irrelevant. All that matters is GDP per capita. You can have a declining GDP and still be getting richer.

    Of course the corporate sector will become hysterical.

    Maybe we need to accustom ourselves to the idea that population decline is inevitable and it’s OK.

    • Agree: Mark G.
  195. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Audacious Epigone

    It is interesting to note though that it’s not explicit anti-natalism that is to ‘blame’ for low fertility, it’s that having kids isn’t high on the priority list and it interferes with everything else that is high on that list

    If kids aren’t high on your priority list then you’re not going to have kids.

  196. Thea says:

    The democrat socialists aren’t the only one promoting this. It’s also the dream of uber capitalists. Remember Jeb Bush said Americans should work more hours. That played well with some older Nixonian types.

    Meanwhile Finland is debating going to a four-day work week. Must be nice.

  197. Thea says:
    @Talha

    Progressive humanism is an ideology that arose in Christendom but is actually a competing ideology.

    Yes some ‘churches’ have embraced it but it is theologically incompatible with belief in a divine savior.

    • Replies: @Talha
  198. Talha says:
    @Thea

    Progressive humanism is an ideology that arose in Christendom but is actually a competing ideology.

    I’m not a Christian myself, but this seems to be the more accurate assessment based on my experience with traditional Christians (interacting with them, reading their writings, etc.).

    I was saddened recently at the death of Roger Scruton in Britain; he was one of the men helping to hold back the deluge.

    Peace.

  199. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    So instead of aiming at a TFR of maybe 2.5 you only need to aim for maybe 1.95 to 2.05 – just under replacement level….Maybe we need to accustom ourselves to the idea that population decline is inevitable and it’s OK.

    I can see that. There certainly doesn’t NEED to be a constant growth of human beings. I mean, in the past there were often events that would cut human populations down by 10% or more; plagues, diseases, random massive volcanic eruptions, etc.

    Life does go on.

    And if you get the TFR into a position (as you proposed) such that the decline is not so drastic, then I can see how a society/nation can mitigate some of the more detrimental effects and societal dysfunctions that come from a massive and quick drop (like I pointed out is happening in Japan).

    Peace.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  200. @Talha

    Well, Belloc basically said it was quite possible that Islam might rise again within a generation specifically because it had retained its spiritual foundation and core and that this was the most important thing for a civilization. We’ll see.

    And Belloc was completely wrong about this, as he was about many other things. He was actually a liberal Oxfordian in his youth and, while he adopted some traditional perspectives later on, always included a hefty admixture of the republican spirit.

    Islam has not retained any kind of spiritual foundation, and anybody whose perspective allows for such a conclusion is blind and patently absurd. Islam has been a spent force since the days of Avicenna. It exists now only as a cultural fossil, stoney and gigantic in its proportions, but lifeless. These bones will never arise and walk.

    And that is why I am completely unconcerned about the long term impact of Islamic immigrants to the West. You will not assimilate us, you will be assimilated to us, and in the end you’ll be just another option in the great American food court—a little cultural enclave serving up halal markets and good falafel stands, kind of like the Vietnamese immigrants and their pho.

    But do not think that I am defending the West here. The West is likewise hollow, decadent, and devoid of spirituality. The only difference is that the West is heavier. It is the more geologically recent stratum; the overburden crushes and deforms the underburden.

    Three or four more generations here and your descendants will never know that they were ever Islamic, any more than the average white idiot today understands that his ancestors were once believing and God-fearing (i.e. not “cultural”) Catholics.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Talha
    , @dfordoom
    , @dfordoom
  201. AaronB says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    I agree that Islam as it is now is basically a moribund fossil – and indeed Talha’s insistence on clinging to a core of unchanging principles suggests a sort of fossilized attitude, although I understand it. But it is not a dynamic attitude, it is a defensive one.

    But I suspect Islam has the possibility of spiritual renewal in Sufism – this has always been marginal in Islam, and it may be time for it to become central.

    Whether Islam becomes once again a conduit for the spirit – or whether Christianity does – death is never final. The old spiritual realities will find new expression.

    • Replies: @Talha
  202. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Sufism – this has always been marginal in Islam

    That’s just factually incorrect.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  203. Talha says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Islam has not retained any kind of spiritual foundation, and anybody whose perspective allows for such a conclusion is blind and patently absurd.

    Thanks for your opinion; I do not challenge opinions.

    You will not assimilate us, you will be assimilated to us

    Definitely a possibility. Right now, the best polls on the matter indicate we are losing as many as are coming into the religion. The major difference is in the types of people that leave versus the types of people that come in.

    serving up halal markets and good falafel stands

    And music. Its interesting; one of the recent very popular songs out of Algeria (and across the Arab world – wouldn’t be surprised if even the Israelis were playing it) was Zeena/Zina* (“Beauty”). It is very simply composed and talks about a forlorn young man whose lover left him and broke his heart, he pines and looks for her until he realizes his tears have been in vain and that his only cure is God and that his devotion was misplaced (his heart “betrayed”) in that which only brings heartache. It’s a healthy sign that such songs still have wide appeal in the Muslim world.

    Three or four more generations here and your descendants will never know that they were ever Islamic

    Well that is the exact fear that my teachers have; which is why we are laying down foundations for passing on the tradition beyond our generation to the next ones. It is a very serious enterprise, takes a lot of dedication and effort. We know we are swimming against a very strong current. Time will tell.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

  204. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    I am happy to hear that.

    I am no expert, but my sense is that Sufi mysticism became institutionalized – much as Zen did in Japan, or the monasteries of Europe.

    This tends to somewhat neuter mysticism, although its probably necessary. Today’s Islam does not seem, to my eyes, to display the Sufi spirit to any marked degree – although I am sure there are exceptions. So there is room for the Sufi spirit to grow, I believe.

    • Replies: @Talha
  205. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    but my sense is that Sufi mysticism became institutionalized

    To a degree. There has always been a (healthy, as far as I’m concerned) tension with the mysticism and the formal jurisprudential aspects or branches of Islam – a tension that I feel helps guide both and keep both in check. And when they come together in men like Mawlana Rumi (ra) or Ibn Ata Illah (ra) or Ashraf Ali Thanawi (ra) – it is wonderful to behold.

    This tends to somewhat neuter mysticism, although its probably necessary.

    Without the sacred law to reign it in, mysticism always tends towards the Poz – always. Without mysticism to reign in the jurists, they always tend towards dead, ritualistic hearts and hypocrisy – always. Two wings of a bird.

    Today’s Islam does not seem, to my eyes, to display the Sufi spirit to any marked degree

    Yeah, they don’t get the headlines – why would they? They aren’t very loud and don’t want attention But, if you hear them speak, then you’ll understand why they are the ones who are necessary to rectify the community and help set its priorities*.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    *Shaykh Habib al-Jifri, from the Ba’alawi Order once told a crowd (specifically the Muslim men) in Britain, that; “All of the work of building a community, rousing a nation, rousing the Muslims and having a future for Islam here is rubbish and a waste of time if they are not serious about raising awareness and do something to stop the injustices being done against the mothers in our community.”

    • Replies: @AaronB
  206. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    But, if you hear them speak, then you’ll understand why they are the ones who are necessary to rectify the community and help set its priorities*.

    Yes, I am optimistic that Sufis will come to represent the next era of Islam.

    Without the sacred law to reign it in, mysticism always tends towards the Poz

    My theory is that the poz is mysticism translated into materialism.

    The mystic may perceive that in ultimate reality, distinctions aren’t real and all is One – for that very reason, he is not concerned with erasing gender, for instance. Gender is real on one level, but unreal on another. He is on one level already liberated from gender – so does not need to physically destroy it.

    But if you believe in only one level – the physical – than the universal desire to break through the limits of physical reality can only apply to the physical realm.

    Mostly the poz seems like truths about ultimate reality being made into physical reality – i.e, truths about one level being applied to the wrong level.

    But what are people to do if they only believe in the physical? The human need to transcend physical reality is universal – it is the religious impulse itself. This impulse naturally points toward the metaphysical, but if you close off that direction, it will have to express itself physically.

    That’s partly why I’m not so horrified by the poz – it is a right impulse wrongly directed. As long as humanity is still trying to transcend physical limits and physical distinctions, things aren’t so bad. Even if they’re doing it wrong. I’d be much more horrified by a perfect acceptance of the material world and its limits.

    Paradoxically, the poz actually suggests humans aren’t content with materialism – the limits of the physical.

    Just my theory.

    • Replies: @Talha
  207. Mark G. says:
    @dfordoom

    I was around in 1970 when the U.S. population was 200 million. I didn’t feel then like we were underpopulated and that we needed to increase the population up to the current 300 million. I think most other Americans back then felt that way too.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  208. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Just my theory.

    Not a bad one – lot of coherence in it.

    The human need to transcend physical reality is universal

    Like some people look forward to the Singularity which also promises to erase these distinctions; is there race or gender in the Singularity?

    That’s partly why I’m not so horrified by the poz – it is a right impulse wrongly directed.

    Well, Communism was an understandable attempt at correction or reversal of the very real excesses of the Industrial Revolution and unbridled Capitalism at the time; my son and I were recently discussing one of his assigned books, The Jungle by Upton Sinclair.

    If the Poz is indeed a very real extreme societal impulse driven as a reaction to the lack of a spiritual outlet (like you hinted at), well…it has quite a potential to do major damage to society before it is a spent force.

    As an aside – the jurists like Mawlana Rumi (ra) – who was a mufti of Konya – beautifully combined the aspects of the juristic tradition and imbibed with true spirit. An illustrative anecdote:
    A man once asked Mawlana Rumi (ra); what kind of musical sound is haram in Islam?

    His response: The sound of spoons playing in the pots of the rich, heard by the poor and the hungry nearby.

    Peace.

    • Agree: AaronB
  209. Talha says:

    On the subject of a barren future, this is necessarily related to the institution of motherhood…or perhaps the growing disappearance thereof.

    A couple of things I came across today that I thought I’d share (under the MORE tag) for people to reflect on regarding this institution.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  210. There is one thing this kind of discussion makes clear. The overpopulation argument against life extension is dead (pun intended).

    • Replies: @Rosie
  211. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    There certainly doesn’t NEED to be a constant growth of human beings.

    Maybe we just need to concentrate on building a better society.

    We seem to be obsessed with the idea that a better society must be a bigger society. We have bought into the capitalist obsession with growth.

    If you live in a town of 10,000 people is it really going to be a better town with 12,000 people, or 15,000 people? Maybe it could be made into a nicer more pleasant town, even if it ends up being a town of 9,000 people. Maybe the priority should be making the town more pleasant rather than just bigger.

    And of course if it turns out to be a really pleasant town of 9,000 people then the people in that town might think, hey, this would be a good town in which to raise our kids. So you might end up with a fairly stable population of 9,000.

    That’s how people used to think about the places they lived – is this the kind of town I want my kids to grow up in?

    • Replies: @Talha
  212. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Three or four more generations here and your descendants will never know that they were ever Islamic, any more than the average white idiot today understands that his ancestors were once believing and God-fearing (i.e. not “cultural”) Catholics.

    Unfortunately that is very likely be true.

    And I agree that western civilisation is entirely hollowed out. I also agree with your point about “heaviness” although I don’t think it’s a product of greater recentness. Western civilisation has an enormous amount of financial, political, military and cultural might behind it and those forces will ensure that western civilisation steamrollers everything in its path.

    The triumph of the West has not been the triumph of a better civilisation. In many ways (possibly even most ways) western civilisation is inferior to the civilisations it has crushed. It is merely the triumph of a richer militarily stronger and much more ruthless civilisation.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @AaronB
  213. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Intelligent Dasein

    You will not assimilate us, you will be assimilated to us

    In Europe the best strategy for Islam would be to pick one European country and aim to dominate it completely and take it over. The obvious choices would be Britain or France, both nuclear powers. Without nukes the Americans will destroy you. Muslims should not be scattering all over Europe. They should be concentrating their strength. A policy of Islam In One Country if you like.

    Muslims should forget places like Germany and Sweden. They’re not nuclear powers so they are irrelevant.

  214. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    All good points.

    Peace.

  215. Rosie says:
    @Abelard Lindsey

    There is one thing this kind of discussion makes clear. The overpopulation argument against life extension is dead (pun intended).

    Abelard Lindsey in 500 years:

  216. Rosie says:
    @dfordoom

    In many ways (possibly even most ways) western civilisation is inferior to the civilisations it has crushed. It is merely the triumph of a richer militarily stronger and much more ruthless civilisation.

    Doom goes full anti-White.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  217. @Toronto Russian

    The thread reads:

    Replies: @GodHelpUs

    I think to myself, that is the reply!

  218. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Mark G.

    I was around in 1970 when the U.S. population was 200 million. I didn’t feel then like we were underpopulated and that we needed to increase the population up to the current 300 million.

    Australia today has a population of 25 million. I can remember when it was 12 million. It was a nicer country then, and richer as well. Housing was very affordable. It was a great country in which to raise kids.

  219. AaronB says:
    @dfordoom

    I understand what you are saying, but lately I’ve been thinking its not quite correct to call it Western civilization.

    Western civilization ended in the 1500s – a certain set of ideas and attitudes then arose among a small group of men geographically located in the West. From that small center, these ideas first spread throughout the West. Many, perhaps most, people in the West were opposed to these ideas – the Romantic Revolution, etc. These ideas do not constitute a civilization – but, rather, the solvent of all civilization and culture.

    Asia has proven no more able to resist these ideas than the people of the West – China, the cultural center of the East, completely capitulated and has not shown any greater resilience than the peoples of the West. Nor has anywhere in the world.

    I think at this point in time it isn’t helpful to describe a set of ideas that emerged in the geographical West but are the solvent of all civilization as Western – Western civilization is as much a victim of these ideas as anyone, and none proved able to resist. All civilizations crumbled before these ideas – Jewish, Western, Islamic, Chinese, Japanese. Calling it Western civilization – when it is hostile to all civilization – just feeds into the racial anti-white narrative and is not helpful in the current climate.

    Demonizing a whole segment of humanity – a segment that is as much a victim as any other – is not helpful, although I get where you are coming from.

    This isn’t a racial thing, and we should resist all efforts to make it into one. That all cultures succumbed clearly shows that.

    These ideas, rather, were always there – always potentially existing. They finally emerged into the world in full force, and claimed everyone as a victim. The precise geographic location is immaterial – none could resist. So it’s a more abstract and impersonal process, and we should resist making it into a personalized one or ascribing guilt to any one group.

    People, men and women, of good will, of any race or region whatsoever, should band together and form an alternative.

    • Thanks: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Rosie
  220. AaronB says:
    @AaronB

    It is even possible to view these ideas as necessary, as something the world had to go through.

    There is a theory in religion that the Fall was necessary because you cannot fully appreciate what you had until you lose it. Loss educates.

    These are mythological ideas, but they contain truth. The myth is expressed again as the Prodigal Son – you leave home so you can appreciate it for the first time.

    Viewing this all as a phase makes it possible to be ultimately optimistic. T.S Eliot I believe said, the result of all our wandering is to return to our beginning, and see it truly for the first time.

    But maybe the wandering in the wilderness is a necessary phase.

    If you this phase as final, you might despair. But when is anything final?

  221. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosie

    Doom goes full anti-White.

    At this point in time Western Civilisation is anti-white. It’s also anti-people.

    How would you describe a civilisation that celebrates sodomy? That believes that a man wearing a dress is identical in every way to a biological woman? A civilisation that reduces everything to a monetary value. That believes that corporate profit is the most sacred thing that exists? That bombs rival civilisations into ruins. A civilisation awash in mind-numbing drugs? A civilisation that slaughtered millions of people over a minor dispute in the Balkans and the proceeded to butcher tens of millions of people twenty years later? A civilisation that pioneered such advances as industrial-scale genocide and dropping nuclear weapons on civilian targets?

    Do you really honestly believe such a civilisation is good for white people?

    You would have to really hate white people to wish for a continuation of what currently constitutes western civilisation.

    • Replies: @JackOH
  222. Rosie says:
    @AaronB

    Western civilization ended in the 1500s – a certain set of ideas and attitudes then arose among a small group of men geographically located in the West. From that small center, these ideas first spread throughout the West. Many, perhaps most, people in the West were opposed to these ideas – the Romantic Revolution, etc. These ideas do not constitute a civilization – but, rather, the solvent of all civilization and culture.

    I agree with much of what you say, but I would date the end of Western civilization much later. The Romantic Revolution was an attempt to rescue Western civilization from the nihilist excesses of the Enlightenment (IMO not the Enlightenment itself).

    • Agree: AaronB
  223. vok3 says:

    @75

    “However, credit where credit is due! The WN 1.0 guys who are tatted up and hang swastikas in their houses know eachother IRL and meet regularly. They have an actual command hierarchy. If the balloon went up, they could be a credible contender to take over local government operations in their area.”

    You’re not from this universe, are you?

    @79

    “The WN types with power are either prison gangs, or biker gangs. ”

    And in neither case would they be functional replacement governments. There’s far more to maintaining a functional society than being the toughest and nastiest alpha SOB around. Civilization is the product of comparatively weak beta males discovering that their ability to cooperate effectively in peace and war makes them more than a match for any combination of raging thugs. MS-13 and Mexican drug gangs and so on exist only at the sufferance of the governments involved: if and when a government decides to eradicate them – and I mean eradicate as a matter of war, not going through the motions of innocent-until-proven-guilty and treating them as misunderstood fellow citizens and all the rest of it – they will by god be eradicated and right quick, too.

    Prison gangs have power because the law enforcement authorities permit them to do so, and prevent citizen militias from forming and/or taking action. Remove law enforcement, you don’t have prison gangs move into the vacuum; instead you have citizen militias and death squads going on a bloody rampage for a few months, during which time most of the criminals (complete with tattoos and huge biceps) and more than a few innocents end up dead. Afterwards, you don’t have any criminals, and the smarter leaders in the citizen militias will make like Queen Elizabeth I and talk about how shocked, shocked they are at these stories of innocents being killed mistakenly and make one of the mid-level commanders into a convenient scapegoat. Everybody feels good about it, the virtue signalling is complete, and the targeted class is conveniently dead. And meanwhile the plumbing works and there’s food for sale at the market.

    Prison gangsters can’t do that. If they could, they wouldn’t have ended up in prison in the first place.

  224. vok3 says:

    Talha’s posts here are fairly interesting. It’s important to remember, however:

    A mosque is not “just like a church, except for Allah instead of Jesus”. There is this basic assumption built into white people because it’s the framework within which we’ve existed all our lives. A mosque is not a religious center. It is a religious/political/social center. It is the center of ALL aspects of Islamic life. It is the center of worship, and it is also the place where social networking and inter-family relationships happen, and it is also the place where policy is decided. It is church and City Hall and the park rec center all combined into one. It is totalitarian.

    White guys who convert to Islam get told: “sure, we’ll set you up with a wife, you’ll be one of us, you’ll fit in!” And then they do. And they find themselves at the absolute bottom of an extremely strict hierarchy, and being given orders, and damn well expected to follow through on those orders. More than a few ended up in Syria to prove themselves to their new coreligionists. Others performed other actions, perhaps not as dramatic or explicitly criminal or necessitating overseas travel, but still meaningful and serious steps to separate themselves from their own race and culture and leave them utterly dependent on the adopted one. It’s all straight out of cult procedures everywhere. Because that’s what it is, especially for white converts: a cultist brainwashing.

    Islam is not race-blind. It is an absolutist and totaliarian ideology of global conquest. It wants you to convert, yes, but the Arabs will always at the top of the Islamic pyramid, and white converts will always be expendable tools to be viewed with extreme suspicion. Read up on Janissaries and Mamelukes; it’s nothing new. Islam does not want whites to convert for the benefit of whites; it wants whites to convert for the benefit of Islam, and it will use those whites up and then throw them away.

    Talha’s posts are interesting. Always remember when reading them, though: he has his own perspective and his own motivations and perhaps may not even be consciously aware of some of the objectives he is furthering.

    • Replies: @Talha
  225. Talha says:
    @vok3

    It is a religious/political/social center. It is the center of ALL aspects of Islamic life.

    Yup.

    And they find themselves at the absolute bottom of an extremely strict hierarchy, and being given orders, and damn well expected to follow through on those orders.

    This makes no sense. I know of and am in regular contact with fully qualified Muslim scholars (including certified muftis from Al-Azhar) who are white converts. One of the leading scholars on the subject of Islamic finance in the US is a white convert. Many of my good friends from UCLA who were from Indo-Pak and Arab background took a white convert scholar as their spiritual guide in the Shadhili Order. He is a convert from a Catholic background, born in “farm country” in the Northwest. This is what he looks like:

    The person in charge of our mosque administration is a white convert. My wife is a convert and has studied the religion from qualified scholars (she is working on completing her Alimah certification in the Hanafi school – mashaAllah) and born-Muslim women come to her and call her “teacher”. Her sister also converted and studied Arabic in Egypt and now teaches it to born-Muslims. I’m not even bringing up the Bosnian and Albanian communities and their contributions, just white converts.

    Within religious circles, whites are giving deference and responsibilities in accordance with their grasp of sacred knowledge (this has always been the key) and general aptitudes. You will certainly see some discrimination – and I have seen it myself – but, in my experience – that is along the more secular spectrum of Muslims.

    Just curious; how many white converts to Islam do you know personally to draw these conclusions? Feel free to round up to the nearest five.

    More than a few ended up in Syria to prove themselves to their new coreligionists.

    Pro-tip; avoid recruiters from Daesh, they are looking for cannon fodder – bad for your health.

    still meaningful and serious steps to separate themselves from their own race and culture

    I’ve certainly seen this happen among some Salafi-Wahhabi types (causes a lot of cognitive dissonance), but not in general. I know converts personally whose own parents or siblings or kids themselves converted specifically because of the positive change they saw in them; no more partying out late and coming home drunk, addressing their parents respectfully, etc.

    Islam is not race-blind.

    Correct.

    but the Arabs will always at the top of the Islamic pyramid

    Uh yeah – because the Ottomans (who were mostly white due to successive breeding with white concubines) weren’t the last dynasty of Caliphs for the past 600 years.

    Islam does not want whites to convert for the benefit of whites; it wants whites to convert for the benefit of Islam

    Actually it’s a mutually beneficial arrangement.

    he has his own perspective and his own motivations and perhaps may not even be consciously aware of some of the objectives he is furthering.

    No, I’m 100% aware – I’ve always been open about my motivations. Ask anyone who has been here for a while.

    Peace.

  226. JackOH says:
    @dfordoom

    To which may be added arbitrary, insensate, costly, ineffective, and sometimes outright corrupt bureaucratic decision-making, which the bureaucrats themselves regard as rational, appropriately budgeted, effective, and a consequence of transparent political process.

    A tiny example. The intersection of two major roadways near me was improved by, among other things, adding pedestrian-actuated walk-don’t walk lights, freshly striped walkways, and, a sloped curb cut for wheelchair users.

    Yet, pedestrians who actually cross the roads there, myself among them, do so about 100 feet away from the actual intersection for reasons of safety. One need only look quickly left and right to spot an opening in traffic. At the improved intersection, vehicles with the green light enter the intersection from a small hill on one side so that they’re blind to the intersection until the last moment. Vehicles with the green light on the other side frequently want to make a fast left to avoid the red light or oncoming through traffic.

    Rules have been complied with; moneys spent; few notice there’s been no improvement at all.

    My example is trivial, but multiply those decision-making qualities a billion-fold, and, in my opinion, you get a society gone wrong, with no single person in the decision-making chain have any intent to do evil.

  227. @YetAnotherAnon

    I saw recent polling results that found 6% of those under the age of 30 are vegan compared to 1%-2% over 30.

    • Replies: @Talha
  228. @216

    A millennia ago, chicken was a luxury while beef was the (relatively) more common meat.

  229. @MikeatMikedotMike

    Fertility declines aren’t just limited to the West, though. Everywhere touched by the IT age has seen a fertility collapse, with the exception of sub-Saharan Africa. East Asia TFR is even lower than the West’s, despite being mostly homogeneous and untouched by Jewish influence (for those inclined to blame that–I don’t).

  230. @nymom

    One major problem in a potential reset scenario is that a lot of the natural resources required for the restart won’t be accessible with primitive extraction technologies. It was a lot easier to find surface level oil a century ago than it is today.

  231. @Talha

    Not sure I understand why the American Indian and Hispanic figures are zero through the middle of the 19th century, but that’s a minor quibble.

    • Replies: @Talha
  232. Talha says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Among my daughter’s high school friends, quite a bit of them were either vegan or at least dabbled with it. It’s interesting what human beings are doing in the absence of religion*.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    *“The patience of Job”

  233. Talha says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    The native Americans I don’t understand, perhaps due to lack of efforts to count them? But the Hispanic appear around the time of territorial gains as part of the Mexican/American War, no?

    Peace.

  234. @dfordoom

    It’s sad but the greatest threat to the world today is American cultural hegemony.

    Indeed. That threat isn’t just outside of the empire. It’s inside the empire, too. America’s historical nations are being destroyed by that same cultural hegemony.

  235. @prime noticer

    The fertility gap isn’t quite that wide, but it is based on religiosity more than other things like political orientation or income. Among nH whites from 2000 onward, those who never attend church have a mean TFR of 1.78 compared to those who go weekly+, who have 2.52. That’s a generation behind current TFR figures, though, since we can’t calculate current rates from the GSS, but we can look at completed rates for boomers.

  236. @dfordoom

    Urban areas have reliably been population sinks for roughly ever–in 10AD, in 1010AD, and in 2010AD. There is no other factor I feel as confident attributing fertility decline to than urbanization.

  237. @dfordoom

    It’s okay to breed like whites.

  238. @Talha

    The process of giving life is ruining her life. Only vampires could view their own procreation as vampiric.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
  239. Talha says:
    @Audacious Epigone

    Probably best people like this do NOT breed until they do a 180 on their attitude to the subject of motherhood and children.

    Peace.

  240. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    Among my daughter’s high school friends, quite a bit of them were either vegan or at least dabbled with it. It’s interesting what human beings are doing in the absence of religion*.

    It’s anecdotal evidence, but in my experience veganism is almost entirely limited to people who see themselves as spiritual but reject organised religion. Or to people who have turned health into a quasi-religious cult. So yes, it’s another substitute religion.

    I used to know a guy who smoked (both tobacco and marijuana), drank heavily and was a regular heroin user. He wouldn’t touch meat because it’s bad for you.

    It’s another sign not just of cultural decline but also intellectual decline.

  241. @Talha

    Assimilating to the letter but not the spirit of the law. I guess it beats Manchester, etc.

    • LOL: Talha

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