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The strong support Marginalized Americans express for a mask mandate by government fiat does little to assure those looking for hopeful signs of resistance to the Covid control consolidation. Want to bank, find a job, travel, or use the internet? Not until we scan your Salubrity chip to ensure your inoculation regiment is up to date.

But if one-quarter of black Americans are worried Bill Gates is going to give them autism–and who knows what else–the rollout may be a rocky one. There must be some disparate impact in there somewhere, better call the whole thing off:

The Science is losing hold of the youth. You hate to see it.

There is a strong Black Rednecks and White Liberals dynamic in play here. It’s a dynamic that exists on a host of cultural issues. These, rather than tax cuts and foreign wars and Marco Rubio speaking in broken Spanish, are the things Republicans should lead their voter outreach efforts with. When non-whites and white conservatives are on one side of an issue and white liberals are on the other, bang on about that issue.

 
• Category: Culture/Society, Science • Tags: Coronavirus, Polling, Science 
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  1. What do people with autism have to say on this question? Is there no bar for them? Perhaps they, like myself, think the pollers ask too many stupid question, and plus, Judge Wopner’s on at 5.

    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @Nodwink
    , @nebulafox
  2. Dumbo says:

    Is there such thing as autistic blacks?

    (I would think it’s mostly a White male thing (maybe Asian too)).

    Vaccines can be a problem, but not because they cause autism; they cause other problems. Also, one thing which has not been much discussed, not even by the pro-life lobby – did you know that most or at least many vaccines are created using cells of aborted babies to create a cell line? I didn’t know this until recently.

    • Replies: @Adam Smith
    , @nebulafox
  3. Nodwink says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    As someone originally diagnosed with Asperger’s, I doubt the autism/vaccine link. I haven’t studied it much myself, but few in the scientific world seem to take it seriously these days.

  4. dfordoom says: • Website

    People who are cranks on certain subjects (such as vaccination) are almost certainly much more likely to respond to survey questions on the subject.

    • Agree: Jtgw
    • Replies: @Jtgw
    , @Twodees Partain
  5. The Science is losing hold of the youth. You hate to see it.

    The youth never really witnessed what science has done for humanity. The older folks have some memory of things like polio or witnessing man stepping on the moon or moving from prop airliners to jets.

    Today’s youth arrived on the scene with a fairly well established world of tech, medicine, etc., and their grasp of how these things came to be is so tenuous that they are little more than a cargo cult waiting for more manna from the gods in the machine.

    • Agree: Voltarde, Jtgw, SFG
  6. Dumbo says:

    Blacks may have “low IQ”, as people in this blog are so happy to say, but on some issues they are smarter (or just less “dumb smart”) than Whites. They have a negative view of homosexuality and gay marriage. They are suspicious of Jews. They are not so confident about mass vaccination. They are more supportive of each other. They don’t think that “race doesn’t exist”. They don’t think that “love is love”. Maybe it’s for the wrong reasons, but still, it’s healthier than Whites who are so easy to brainwash — actually, there was a study the other day showing that more intelligent people are more susceptible to propaganda than dumb people.

  7. Franz says:

    God bless white working class gals.

    Knew they were less indoctrinated and just look at how much less than their sorority house sisters!

    On autism: Many have put it down to over crowding and over saturation (a person online all day is, effectively, being “crowded” by the information glut — a term coined when Eisenhower was president. Yes, the 1950s. They had not conception of what was coming.

  8. If you take the vaccine and I don’t, you are supposedly protected and I’m not. Where is your harm if I don’t take the vaccine?

    Where is informed consent in the vaccine push for everyone to get vaccinated?

    Why are the vaccine takers so eager to force everyone to be vaccinated if the vaccine they accepted is protecting them? Seems to me to be just a control freak wanting to exercise his mental aberration. Where am I wrong?

  9. iffen says:

    Marco Rubio speaking in broken Spanish

    Little Hands has been saying some good things in the Queen’s English lately.

    Rubio signals opposition to Biden Cabinet picks

    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/527378-rubio-signals-opposition-to-biden-cabinet-picks

    Also, he and Senator Lee were responsible for the expanded child tax credit.

    Rubio, Lee: 2018 Tax Data Proves Expanded Child Tax Credit Benefitted Millions of American Families

    JUL 11 2019
    Washington, D.C. — Today, U.S. Senators Marco Rubio (R-FL) and Mike Lee (R-UT) released statements after the Tax Foundation’s report on 2018 tax return data showed the positive impact the expanded Child Tax Credit (CTC) had for millions of American families. Their efforts secured a provision in the Tax Cuts and Job Act of 2017 that doubled the CTC from $1,000 to $2,000, expanded eligibility, and increased the refundability of the CTC from $1,100 to $1,400. The data from 2018 tax returns makes it clear the benefits of this effort. The number of people who received the CTC doubled, benefiting American families in every income bracket, with the exception of top income earners.

    I think that I like Little Hands over Cruz. How about Rubio/Cruz 2024? Rubio/Cotton 2024?

    https://www.rubio.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2019/7/rubio-lee-2018-tax-data-proves-expanded-child-tax-credit-benefitted-millions-of-american-families

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
  10. anonymous[384] • Disclaimer says:
    @RoatanBill

    The reason is that there are some people who can’t get vaccinated, such as those with immune disorders and newborn babies. If almost all of the general population gets vaccinated the disease is effectively eradicated and these groups are protected, but if significant numbers of people are not vaccinated the disease is still endemic and these groups are at risk.

    • Disagree: GazaPlanet
  11. Realist says:

    I think that I like Little Hands over Cruz. How about Rubio/Cruz 2024? Rubio/Cotton 2024?

    Cotton is a warmonger for the Deep State.

    • Replies: @iffen
  12. iffen says:
    @Realist

    Cotton is a warmonger for the Deep State.

    The war is not completely over, but I agree with AE that for the time being “we” have routed the open borders faction in the Republican Party. We should be able to do the same with the warmongers.

    • Replies: @Realist
  13. Jtgw says:
    @dfordoom

    The establishment has screwed over the working class so much they don’t know what to believe anymore. Need to replace current parasitic elite with one that actually cares for the welfare of the masses and maybe they won’t have to rely on people who think you can cure Covid by injecting disinfectant.

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
  14. Realist says:
    @iffen

    The war is not completely over, but I agree with AE that for the time being “we” have routed the open borders faction in the Republican Party.

    I am not sure what you mean by The war is not completely over…. Do you mean the Iraq war, the Afghanistan war, the Syrian war? The Republican faction of the Deep State is dead meat…probably forever.

    • Replies: @iffen
  15. It is blue-eyed to think blacks worry about autism –
    the functioning of their brains is the last thing on their minds 😛

  16. iffen says:
    @Realist

    The war is not completely over….

    The war to make the Republican Party into a party that has the interests of all Americans at the center. Getting rid of the open borders types and the globalist lap dogs, getting rid of the John Kasiches, the Jeff Flakes and all of the traitors to the American people.

    • Replies: @Realist
    , @Bill
  17. @anonymous

    So, we have the tail wagging the dog. A tiny minority has to be protected by violating the natural rights of a much larger group. Your argument is as weak as water.

    If babies can’t get vaccinated, their parents should keep them away from sources of infection. Those with compromised immune systems should be asked to self quarantine as it’s their problem.

    The rest of the population should go about their business in any way they see fit without some tyrant making a determination that can’t be proven to cause no harm and no unintended consequences.

    In years to come, my bet is that people will develop issues and the vaccine will get blamed. No proof will be available because proof is the last thing TPTsB want to make known, but deep down people will understand that they were once again conned into doing self harm via a psyop for the benefit of the control freaks in gov’t.

    • Agree: Bill Jones
    • Replies: @Adam Smith
  18. Dumbo says:
    @anonymous

    The reason is that there are some people who can’t get vaccinated, such as those with immune disorders and newborn babies

    Babies appear to never get Covidisease at all, and children seem to be asymptomatic, so this is a clear case where the vaccine is WORSE than the supposed virus. What are we protecting “babies” and “children” from? Now if people in risk groups want to get vaccinated, let them. The rest should go on as usual. I never took the flu shot. So what?

    • Thanks: RoatanBill
  19. @Dumbo

    Is there such thing as autistic blacks?

    Yes there is…

    When comparing cases and controls receiving their first MMR vaccine before and after 36 months of age, there was a statistically significant increase in autism cases specifically among African American males who received the first MMR prior to 36 months of age. Relative risks for males in general and African American males were 1.69 (p=0.0138) and 3.36 (p=0.0019), respectively. Additionally, African American males showed an odds ratio of 1.73 (p=0.0200) for autism cases in children receiving their first MMR vaccine prior to 24 months of age versus 24 months of age and thereafter.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4128611/

    did you know that most or at least many vaccines are created using cells of aborted babies to create a cell line?

    Some people don’t want to hear about that and they get quite irritated when someone mentions it. The safety and efficacy of vaccines is like a deeply held religious belief for some people.

    WI38, MRC 5, HEK 293 etc…

    I do not think it is a good idea to inject foreign DNA composed of fibroblasts derived from lung tissue from an aborted fetus. I also believe that when you inject a foreign protein into your blood you can develop an allergy to that protein.

    Conspicuous by its absence from current theories is the one mechanism that has an actual history of creating mass allergy—injection. Injection is examined in this book in some detail since it was the means by which the founder of anaphylaxis, Dr. Charles Richet, stumbled on alimentary (food) anaphylaxis in humans and animals over one hundred years ago. Richet concluded in 1913 that food anaphylaxis was a response to proteins that had evaded modification by the digestive system. Using a hypodermic needle, he was able to create the condition in a variety of animals—mammals and amphibians—proving that the reaction was not only universal but also predictable using the method of injection followed by consumption or another injection.

    When children began reacting with anaphylaxis to the MMR vaccine as well as gelatin-containing foods (yogurt, Jell-O, etc.), doctors investigated. Finally, they concluded that the aluminum adjuvant in the DTaP had helped sensitize children to the “minute amounts” of proteins in the refined gelatin in the vaccine. Removal of gelatin from the DTaP vaccines was “an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.” Subsequently, new cases of gelatin allergy in Japanese children dropped.

    As ingredients changed, the number of shots increased for kids in their first eighteen months of life from ten to as many as twenty-nine. The increase meant inconvenience to parents who would have to make more trips to the doctor and discomfort to the children who would have to experience multiple injections. To overcome these obstacles to compliance with the new schedule, the vaccines for diphtheria, pertussis, and tetanus (DPT); polio (OPV); and H. influenzae b (Hib) were administered to children in a single visit with two injections and an oral polio dose starting around 1988. By 1994 starting in Canada, these five were rolled into a single needle. Few parents realize that by design immunization provokes both the desired immune response and allergy at the same time. These natural defenses are inseparable and the more potent the vaccine, the more powerful the two responses. This is an outcome of vaccination the medical community has understood at least since Charles Richet won the Nobel Prize (1913) for his research on anaphylaxis. Anaphylaxis, Richet observed, is one of three outcomes of vaccination.

    https://childrenshealthdefense.org/store/excerpt/the-peanut-allergy-epidemic-whats-causing-it-and-how-to-stop-it-excerpt/

    • Thanks: Dumbo, Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @nymom
  20. @iffen

    Rubio/Cotton 2024?

    This ticket should get traction. I like it.

    The center-right commentariat has been fretting, and the center-left commentariat has been gloating, that demographic change might doom the Republican Party; but the commentariats have not allowed for the centrifugal force that, sooner or later, will throw a faction or two clear from the unwieldy, Frankensteinian corpus that is the Democratic Party.

    “But California!” they warn. They are mistaken. They misapprehend the state/federal political dynamic. One-party states are nothing new in the U.S.  California is a state.

    Rubio/Cotton seems as likely to win as any.

    • Replies: @iffen
  21. @RoatanBill

    Vaccine are like face diapers…

    They only work if we all do it.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  22. @RoatanBill

    https://www.rt.com/news/454052-vaccination-activists-side-effects-/

    When she checks on one of her three living children sleeping, Krystle Cordingley will sometimes see not their faces, but the “grey and lifeless” face of her son Corbyn, whom she found dead in his bed 14 hours after a flu vaccination.

    That was over five years ago.

    “I’m broken. I am not suicidal or unable to function, but my heart will always be shattered. I will forever feel guilty for being the one that took my son in to be vaccinated, and I don’t know if I will ever get over the feeling that I killed him,”

  23. @Adam Smith

    You answered none of my questions and offered a glib response.

    Since I’m not getting vaccinated, your logic implies you’re going to die as a result. Therefore, don’t bother getting vaccinated because it won’t do you any good because of me.

    See what I did?

    Wrangle yourself out of that one and use some logic this time.

    • Replies: @Adam Smith
  24. iffen says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    How about Rubio/Scott? (Tim) That ticket would hold Georgia and NC with no trouble and put the Dems on the defensive in VA.

    Just as good: Rubio/black female from the Rust Belt

    • Replies: @V. K. Ovelund
    , @MBlanc46
  25. Realist says:
    @iffen

    Sorry, misunderstood you.

  26. @iffen

    How about Rubio/Scott? (Tim) That ticket would hold Georgia and NC with no trouble and put the Dems on the defensive in VA.

    I am content to let Tim Scott do what he does without encouragement or opposition from me. If I lived in his state, I would vote for his reëlection as far as I know.

    However, Scott as a Republican has no extraordinary quality that I know besides being black.

    [MORE]

    At least Scott has a black wife, which means that he does not repel black voters the way Michigan’s John James does.

    Just as good: Rubio/black female from the Rust Belt.

    It’s a loser. I want Cotton. Female candidates tend as far as I can tell to repel female voters because female voters know better than to feminize the presidency. Also, though male voters seldom seem to notice it, a vast difference separates a woman with children (especially, with three or more children) from a woman without.

    The resistance to Sarah Palin was no fluke, yet few other mothers can find time to build a political career.

    Anyway, no black, female, Rust Belt Republican statesman of stature exists. Rubio and Cotton are serious men.

    • Replies: @iffen
  27. iffen says:
    @V. K. Ovelund

    However, Scott as a Republican has no extraordinary quality that I know besides being black.

    Didn’t Trump lose by something like 44,000 votes. What % increase in black support would have been required for him to win? 1%,.05, .025?

  28. nebulafox says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I think some people are just too stupid to be bothered with.

  29. nebulafox says:
    @Dumbo

    The IQ range of people with “high functioning autism” varies just like it does for normal people. Distinction between ASD and classical autism is largely based on whether one has an average or above average level of functioning.

    (NGL, ASD is all too often convenient code for “male personality types that 21st Century educational administrators really don’t like”. To be clear, my real thoughts on the topic are more nuanced than that-some things do stick out or are exacerbated that wouldn’t have been 50 years ago, including sensitivity to external stimuli and the potential damage a lack of ability to intuit can cause-but there’s also a perverse incentive for many parents these days to get their kid a diagnosis so that they’ll get attention and various perks rather than being left to sink.)

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  30. Dutch Boy says:

    “Our lab sees autism spectrum disorder (ASD) as an involuntary behavioral syndrome caused by a conserved cellular response to environmental and genetic danger. Autism is therefore an “ecogenetic” syndrome that alters child development. This perspective has led us to a unified theory for the cause and treatment of ASD that is called the cell danger theory1-7. It proposes that autism is a treatable metabolic syndrome caused by persistent activation of the cell danger response (CDR) produced by persistent abnormalities in purinergic signaling. ”
    What could trigger such a phenomenon?
    The CDR is a normal and universal feature of any stress. This means that it is normally activated by both natural infections and vaccination.The CDR is needed to establish cellular and humoral immunity. Since the large majority of children and adults who receive vaccinations, or are exposed to common natural viral infections like Epstein Barr Virus(EBV), are able to recover without incident, the biological question is,“Why are some children and adults unable to moderate or turn off the CDR when its job is done and immunity is established?”We do not have an answer to this question yet. However, relatively simple measures like distributing vaccinations over time, instead of giving a large number at once would decrease the chances of triggering an excessive CDR in individual children deemed to be at increased risk.”
    https://naviauxlab.ucsd.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Naviaux_APT_Review2017.pdf

  31. Dr. Doom says:

    What is “science” after the infiltration of the Frankfurt School?

    Everything normal is a “phobia”. Everything abnormal is a “right”.

    Math and science are “racist”. Imbeciles and illiterates get grade inflation.

    This is a recipe for dystopia and extinction.

    At least “Extinction Rebellion” will admit it.

    GLOBALISM IS A SUICIDE CULT!

  32. MEH 0910 says:

    Cartmans Mum gets a shot

    South Park S23 EP3 – Shots!!!

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  33. Serious question for the author: Are you an anti-vaxxer now?

    I fully understand why the grifters are being coy about it, but you don’t grift, so I don’t get it.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  34. @RoatanBill

    Would my comment make more sense if you knew it was sarcasm?

    I’m not getting vaccinated either.

    And I’m not worried about catching the most sinister of viruses…

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
  35. @Adam Smith

    I’m sorry my reading of your comment didn’t catch your drift.

    I should have suspected my take was off because your other comments were largely aligned with my view.

    Apologies.

    • Replies: @Adam Smith
  36. Talha says:

    Oh boy…this is not good. What a way to go…very sad:
    “More than eight months into the pandemic, the very isolation that is meant to protect nursing home residents from Covid-19 is also contributing to their deaths. Confined to their rooms and largely cut off from visitors, many residents are experiencing serious mental and physical decline. Three women stand up to fight for leniency in New York state visitation policies, in the hopes of saving their loved ones.”
    https://www.nbcnews.com/video/the-hidden-covid-19-crisis-elderly-people-are-dying-from-isolation-96091717781

    Lord have mercy.

    Peace.

    • Thanks: Achmed E. Newman
  37. @RoatanBill

    No worries…

    And no need for apologies…

    I hope you have a wonderful evening…

  38. dfordoom says: • Website
    @anonymous

    The reason is that there are some people who can’t get vaccinated, such as those with immune disorders and newborn babies. If almost all of the general population gets vaccinated the disease is effectively eradicated and these groups are protected, but if significant numbers of people are not vaccinated the disease is still endemic and these groups are at risk.

    But surely the right of libertarians to behave like selfish assholes is much more important than the right of newborn babies and sick people to live. You have to get your priorities straight.

    Trying to argue with a libertarian is like trying to argue with any other cultist.

    Saving the lives of babies and sick people is communism.

  39. dfordoom says: • Website
    @nebulafox

    NGL, ASD is all too often convenient code for “male personality types that 21st Century educational administrators really don’t like”.

    Yes, very much so.

    there’s also a perverse incentive for many parents these days to get their kid a diagnosis so that they’ll get attention and various perks rather than being left to sink.

    I agree. And having an autistic kid doesn’t just mean that the kids get attention and various perks – the parents get lots of attention as well.

    Having an autistic kid is not quite the status symbol that having a trans kid is but it’s the next best thing.

    And when the kids grow up they discover that they will continue to get lots of benefits from being labelled autistic.

    Mental illness can be a useful status symbol if it’s the right kind of mental illness. Autism and ADHD are particularly useful status symbols.

    Food allergies can be useful as well.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  40. nebulafox says:
    @dfordoom

    >Having an autistic kid is not quite the status symbol that having a trans kid is but it’s the next best thing.

    To put it mildly, this was not my experience… but then, for most of my childhood, autism was Rain Man and trangenderism wasn’t even on the radar. And I’m not old by a long shot: the culture shift here has been intense and swift.

    Professional America has gotten so intensely cut-throat and the cut off so steep that diagnosing a subpar kid is part face-saving measure and part a way of avoiding declassment.

  41. nebulafox says:
    @MEH 0910

    I miss the earlier seasons when Cartman’s mother was a crack smoking freak who happened to act like June Cleaver, which was part of why Cartman was Cartman.

  42. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    Trying to argue with a libertarian is like trying to argue with any other cultist.

    I’m not libertarian, but I actually appreciate having those guys around for a couple of reasons; 1) I’m not sure they are going to ever sway the majority of any population to their side because…well, to be honest, they are on the extreme end of a spectrum so I don’t consider them to be a practical opposition (at least in the totality of their vision) and 2) I personally think it is beneficial to at least have some people that are constantly asking for the justifications (theoretical and practical) to the limitation of individual freedom.

    I am glad they exist for pushing the conversation in this direction even though I don’t necessarily agree with their conclusions.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @Mark G.
    , @SFG
  43. Bill says:
    @iffen

    So much winning. I’m tired of winning.

    • Agree: Adam Smith
    • Replies: @iffen
  44. @dfordoom

    But also infanticide and euthansia are communist. Communists just can’t get a break!

  45. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    and 2) I personally think it is beneficial to at least have some people that are constantly asking for the justifications (theoretical and practical) to the limitation of individual freedom.

    A valid point.

    It’s a pity we don’t have people pushing other kinds of eccentric or extreme visions, for the same reasons. For example it would be good to have a few absolutist monarchists about to challenge widespread assumptions that republican and/or democratic systems are inherently superior. It would be nice to have absolutist monarchists to put people on the spot about that assumption and force people to actually justify republican and/or democratic systems.

    Or advocates for communist dictatorship challenging people to actually prove that what we have now is any better.

    I’m being serious. I’m not personally advocating for absolutist monarchy or communist dictatorship but yes, it is healthy to have our assumptions challenged.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Talha
    , @SFG
  46. MBlanc46 says:
    @Jtgw

    I don’t care whether they care about us. I want them to understand that their well-being depends upon our well-being. They can despise me as long as they understand that.

    • Replies: @Jtgw
  47. MBlanc46 says:
    @iffen

    And why would they be any better than Harris and Whoever?

    • Replies: @iffen
  48. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    Or advocates for communist dictatorship challenging people to actually prove that what we have now is any better.

    Well, apparently we are officially (as of a few years ago) paying taxes to agencies that are allowed to propagandize us, so there is that…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @anon
  49. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    Off topic, but you may find this video interesting. I was just listening to it while doing my work. I know, I know, “Sky News”…but it did talk about how things are coming to a head between Australia and China over Covid and trade issues.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    Seems that Aussies are realizing they allowed themselves to be too closely tied financially and dependent on China:

  50. anon[297] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Well, apparently we are officially (as of a few over 100 years ago) paying taxes to agencies that are allowed to propagandize us…

    FIFY.

  51. Dumbo says:
    @dfordoom

    How is someone else getting a shot of the stupid COVID vaccine “saving the lives of babies”, if they are not affected by the disease in the first place??

    Why a vaccine with a supposed 94.5% efficiency is needed for a disease that has a 99.6% survival rate?

    I’m not a libertarian, by the way. But mandatory vaccination is evil, and done more for money than any other reason.

    • Agree: PhilK
    • Disagree: iffen
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  52. Jay Fink says:
    @Dumbo

    “They have a negative view of homosexuality and gay marriage.”

    Yes but it’s not a very important subject to them or they wouldn’t overwhelmingly vote Democrat. They have much more passion for Black Lives Matter and economic liberalism.

    “They are suspicious of Jews.”

    That is true in NYC where there are a lot of Jews. Also true for black Muslim politicians like Ilhan Omar. But overall blacks don’t think much about Jews. What many blacks do think of however is whites and they are not only suspicious, they are often downright hostile.

  53. iffen says:
    @Bill

    So much winning. I’m tired of winning.

    Don’t worry, there’s an good chance that we will eventually lose.

  54. iffen says:
    @MBlanc46

    And why would they be any better than Harris and Whoever?

    Because they would open possibilities to something better.

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
  55. Mark G. says:
    @Talha

    I am glad they exist for pushing the conversation in this direction even though I don’t necessarily agree with their conclusions.

    If someone is really interested in the truth they should be for an open discussion with no opinions repressed. When there is a discussion here on a topic I’m interested in, I pretty much read every comment because I want to see what both sides have to say. Libertarians can usefully remind people about the importance of individual rights while non-libertarians can point out that people exist both as individuals and as members of a community and you need people coming together and forming groups to achieve many important social or charitable goals.

    One way I test whether a political position is valid is to look at the people who hold that position and then look at their position on freedom of speech. I think if you really have the truth on your side you would not be afraid of open debate. I think just the fact that Nazis and Communists suppressed freedom of speech when they gained power is an indicator that much of what they say is not true. One of the things I do is look at lists of books banned for political reasons and then seek out and read those books. Often when a person in power tries to suppress a book I think it backfires in the end because people start to wonder what is in the book that has been banned and then try to get a copy of it.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @dfordoom
  56. Found a typographical error.

    Title says: Most “Americans” do not see a federal mandate to wear masks as a violation of their civil liberties

    But then there is a graph with Republicans @ 71%, and White men no degree @ 53%

    Was “Americans” a typo?

  57. @Dumbo

    They have a negative view of homosexuality and gay marriage. They are suspicious of Jews.

    >then votes 90%+ D

  58. Jtgw says:
    @MBlanc46

    Maybe, or maybe you are replaceable with cheap imports and immigrants.

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
  59. SFG says:
    @dfordoom

    Advocates for communist dictatorship: what, you’ve never heard of Bernie Sanders? 😉

    (Kidding…you do have Jacobin though.)

    There are fascists out there, they get suppressed.

    Frankly my lack of enthusiasm for dictatorships from either end is 1. power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely; you may think you’re getting a strong leader but after a while he’s just shovelling money to his family and friends 2. these guys have a way of ‘disposing’ of anyone they find inconvenient even if you did nothing to them 3. I’m American, and that’s not how we do it here. I’m not going to tell the Chinese (or Iraqis) how to run their country, but the Founding Fathers kicked the Brits out for a reason, and they weren’t even the worst empire out there by far.

    • Agree: V. K. Ovelund
  60. SFG says:
    @Talha

    It’s kind of the way I feel about pacifists. War is bad. It’s sometimes necessary, but it’s still bad. Having 1-2% of the population oppose any war means we’ll have fewer wars, and that’s not a bad thing. Better to have a few Quakers with flowers out there every time to remind us that it’s not all fun and games and even if it goes well there are young men coming back without limbs and others not coming back at all. Or, from the other side of the spectrum, from a guy who’s losing his statues, “It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it.”

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @nebulafox
  61. @dfordoom

    But surely the right of libertarians to behave like selfish …

    In the mid-20th century, Americans would have trusted their federal government to deliver a safe, effective vaccine. Now they don’t, and neither do I.

    That such Americans reach a conclusion similar to the one libertarians reach in this particular matter is coïncidental.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  62. @Dumbo

    More supportive of each other? Then why do they kill each other by the thousands every year? Not to mention the abandonment of children, the pervasive non-lethal domestic violence, etc.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
  63. Jay Fink says:
    @Ripple Earthdevil

    Good points. A big part of their culture is no snitching. I translate that as let us kill each other with no repercussions. Same thing with police defunding. They want nothing to get in the way of black on black.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
  64. @Nodwink

    … few in the scientific world seem to take it seriously these days.

    That would be the same scientific world that says the science is settled on AGW/Climate-Change and is currently only allowing “acceptable” points of view on COVID-19 and epidmiology in general to be aired.

  65. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Dumbo

    I’m not a libertarian, by the way. But mandatory vaccination is evil, and done more for money than any other reason.

    I’m not yet convinced the vaccines are even going to work. And I’m not overly thrilled by the idea of mandatory vaccination either.

    But if you’re going to go down the vaccination road (and in countries like Britain and the US there might not be any alternative) then the objective has to be to eradicate the virus. I don’t see how that will work without a certain degree of coercion. A half-assed vaccination campaign would be pointless.

    Of course much depends on how many people will volunteer for the vaccine. If 95% of the population volunteers then the other 5% probably don’t matter and vaccination will probably (I emphasise probably) eradicate the virus. If only 50% of the population volunteers then the vaccination campaign will probably fail, and consideration would have to be given to making it mandatory (or at least adopting some coercive measures).

    Eradication should have been the objective right from the start. There would have been no need for vaccination, compulsory or otherwise, had eradication been vigorously pursued early on. Now you’re pretty much stuck with vaccination.

    While, as I said, I’m personally not that happy with mandatory vaccination I do find the libertarian arguments against it a bit repulsive.

  66. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Mark G.

    I think just the fact that Nazis and Communists suppressed freedom of speech when they gained power is an indicator that much of what they say is not true.

    And today “liberal democracies” are very intent on suppressing freedom of speech, which is also an indicator that much of what they say is not true.

    If the dissident right ever gained power they would immediately move to suppress speech that they don’t like.

    In fact if libertarians ever gained power I suspect they would also suppress speech that they don’t like.

    That’s how politics works. If you believe in a political ideology you will inevitably disapprove of people who don’t agree with you and if you get your hands on the levers of power you will use it to deal with those people of whom you disapprove.

    Nobody really believes that the opinions of people who disagree with them are valid. When people say they are in favour of freedom of speech they mean that they are in favour of freedom of speech for themselves and people with whom they basically agree. For everyone there is an Overton Window of acceptable opinions.

  67. dfordoom says: • Website
    @V. K. Ovelund

    In the mid-20th century, Americans would have trusted their federal government to deliver a safe, effective vaccine. Now they don’t, and neither do I.

    I’m a bit sceptical about the vaccine as well at this stage. If it turns out to be safe and effective then I can see the logic in arguments that it should be mandatory, but I’d also like to first know that it really is safe and effective.

    That such Americans reach a conclusion similar to the one libertarians reach in this particular matter is coïncidental.

    True. Libertarians are sometimes right, although invariably for the wrong reasons.

    As far as the vaccine is concerned, thanks to appalling governmental failures in some countries, there’s now the unpleasant choice between a vaccine that may or may not turn out to be safe and effective or letting things go on as they are, with lockdowns being a more or less permanent feature. When you have dysfunctional government you end up with no good choices.

    I’d love to hear from libertarians on how they would have dealt with the virus (or how they would deal with any similar virus). I’m guessing I won’t get a sensible answer.

    • Thanks: V. K. Ovelund
    • Replies: @Mark G.
  68. Curle says:
    @Nodwink

    It isn’t vaccines it’s race mixing. That’s why it has exploded over past 40 years and why it is so prevalent in California. And why they can’t solve the problem because it is taboo to look in the right place.

    Talk to caregivers of these kids and they’ll tell you ALL of the kids are mixed race even if it isn’t immediately apparent on the surface.

    “ The researchers also found that the highest absolute risk of autism among siblings was in mixed racial/ethnic groups.”

    https://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/home/topics/autism-spectrum-disorders/autism-does-race-sex-affect-risk-of-younger-siblings-with-affected-older-siblings/

  69. U. Ranus says:
    @RoatanBill

    Why are the vaccine takers so eager to force everyone to be vaccinated

    Even though they’re true believers and want to take the shot, they also seek mitigation of damage just in case anti-vaxxers are right.

    Because the game of life is relentlessly zero sum, forcing everyone to be vaccinated eliminates the possibility of others winning. It’s a rational strategy, and obviously an evil one. Contrary to their self image, anti-anti-vaxxers are scum.

  70. Mark G. says:
    @dfordoom

    I’d love to hear from libertarians on how they would have dealt with the virus (or how they would deal with any similar virus).

    Dealing with the virus doesn’t just involve political actions. The country with the lowest death rate is Taiwan even though it has had no lockdowns and no mandatory mask wearing. This has been a total mystery to many. A number of scientists like Sunetra Gupta at Oxford think this is because Taiwan was heavily hit with a previous coronavirus in 2003 and it left the population with higher immunity levels and thus more prepared for this one. There are a number of other factors that may be an influence: population density, climate, humidity levels, obesity levels, vitamin d levels from the sun or diet, number of elderly, whether the elderly live alone or with family members, being an isolated island or an international air hub, use of HCQ, how countries categorize deaths and so on.

    The state here in the U.S. with the least restrictions and most libertarian approach is probably South Dakota. South Dakota has had a high number of cases recently but that may be because it is an interior state that wasn’t hit hard in the Spring because the epidemic hadn’t reached there yet. Overall death rates per million for South Dakota are comparable to a number of states and foreign countries that have had much more extensive restrictions. South Dakota has had fewer business failures than those other places and much less disruption of normal life. One recent study estimated that Spring lockdowns cost an estimated six million dollars per life saved.

    Both South Dakota and North Dakota were much criticized for not having mask mandates that supposedly reduce the spread of the disease. North Dakota finally mandated masks on November 11th and this was followed by a decrease in cases. South Dakota continued to have no mask mandate. This was followed by a decrease in cases at the same rate as North Dakota. Masks or no masks made no difference.

    • Agree: Cloudbuster, Adam Smith
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  71. @Nodwink

    Our middle child was diagnosed with Asperger’s and as a home schooled child he received no early childhood vaccines. His Asperger’s behavior was well on display before he ever got vaccinated for anything. So that’s one data point.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  72. nebulafox says:
    @SFG

    I like the medieval Eastern Orthodox take on it: killing is at times a regrettable necessity, but it could never be praiseworthy or used as clearance for sins. Byzantium never used religion as prompting for state-sponsored violence like contemporary Western Christians or Muslims did as a result.

    There were emperors that tried to change this, but they never succeeded. Nikephoros Phokas ended up alienating the church over this-in tandem with other segments of society-so badly that he was assassinated despite being the biggest war hero the Romans had in centuries.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  73. nebulafox says:
    @Cloudbuster

    I didn’t communicate verbally until I was maybe 5 or 6 years old, or at least not successfully. But I was reading when I was still a baby and clearly understood what was going on around me, even if I didn’t talk and did some other strange stuff. It just never occurred to my parents that I could be “autistic”, because I clearly wasn’t mentally retarded or unable to understand how to function. I only got diagnosed later in life, and that was an accident: I’d gotten into trouble. Had that never happened, who knows?

    The thing about high-functioning ASD is that you can learn stuff analytically that most people know intuitively. It’s like learning a foreign language-you aren’t a native speaker, but enough practice, and you can pass as one most of the time, and even learn stuff that most native speakers don’t pay attention to. As a kid, I just implicitly assumed everybody relied off social scripts they copied elsewhere-books, TV, watching others, etc. Never occurred to me until much later that most people didn’t.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
  74. 76239 says:
    @dfordoom

    “But surely the right of libertarians to behave like selfish assholes is much more important than the right of newborn babies and sick people to live. You have to get your priorities straight”

    But surely the right of the authoritarians to behave like selfish authoritarian assholes is much more important than the right of new born babies and sick people to live.

    abortion- from the authoritarians
    social isolation- from the authoritarians

    One kills babies, one kills old people. Who is the asshole now shit for brains dfordoom?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  75. @Jay Fink

    A real eye opener for me was the lock step support for O J Simpson. I saw 30 or 40 blacks- support staff in the trading room I was in, openly celebrate a murderer getting away with it because he was black and she was white.
    They hate white people.
    Killing white’s is good and not deserving of punishment.

    I shall not forget it.

    Nor should you.

  76. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Mark G.

    That’s a pretty evasive answer. Let’s assume a new virus appears (which eventually will happen). Let’s assume it’s quite a bit more deadly than COVID-19. What would a libertarian response look like? At what point would libertarians be prepared to accept intrusive government action to halt the spread of such a virus? In other words, how many people would have to die before libertarians were prepared to actually do something?

    • Replies: @Mark G.
    , @V. K. Ovelund
  77. dfordoom says: • Website
    @nebulafox

    I like the medieval Eastern Orthodox take on it: killing is at times a regrettable necessity, but it could never be praiseworthy

    I’d go along with that.

    That’s why the military should never be admired, much less worshipped. They may be a necessary evil but they are still an evil.

    That’s also why standing armies are a very bad thing. They encourage a disgusting culture of military worship.

  78. Mark G. says:

    Let’s assume a new virus appears (which eventually will happen). Let’s assume it’s quite a bit more deadly than COVID-19. What would a libertarian response look like?

    First, when you talk about libertarians, there are people who self-identify as libertarians but there are lots of disagreements among them. So, of course, there will be some differences on how they respond on this issue but on a spectrum going from less government involvement to more government involvement they would favor less.

    I don’t think most libertarians would have a problem with someone like Typhoid Mary being required to self-isolate. You don’t have a right to do something inherently dangerous. For example, most libertarians would say you have a right to get drunk but not drive while drunk. A libertarian wouldn’t advocate making alcohol illegal, though, to help prevent car accidents.

    Let’s look at a historical example. 18th century America had a smaller government and would be considered somewhat libertarian by the standards of today. Smallpox had a 30% fatality rate which is a hundred times worse than COVID-19. There were not many mild or asymptomatic cases of smallpox. It also killed off large numbers of young people. Coronavirus has an average age of death of 78. People who actively had the disease were required to self-quarantine. In some cases if it was rampant in a small town the whole town would be quarantined.

    What they didn’t do was lockdown the entire society. They understood that people still have to live their lives. They quarantined sick people to try to keep them away from healthy people. They didn’t quarantine all the healthy people to keep them away from sick people. Locking down a whole country has generally never been considered as an appropriate policy response to an epidemic until now. I think earlier generations of Americans would be quite shocked if they could see some of the excesses that have taken place over the last several months to deal with a disease that is not fatal for the overwhelming majority of the population.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  79. Mark G. says:
    @dfordoom

    Dfordoom, I forgot to use the reply button on my response to your questions. I apologize for that. Call me dfordumb. Please see my response in comment 82.

  80. MBlanc46 says:
    @iffen

    Simply more Repub globalists. Better to have the genuine item.

  81. MBlanc46 says:
    @Jtgw

    They clearly think that. We should never have allowed them to get into a position where they coukd think that. As we have, it’s now time for torches and pitchforks.

  82. dfordoom says: • Website
    @76239

    “But surely the right of libertarians to behave like selfish assholes is much more important than the right of newborn babies and sick people to live. You have to get your priorities straight”

    But surely the right of the authoritarians to behave like selfish authoritarian assholes is much more important than the right of new born babies and sick people to live.

    abortion- from the authoritarians
    social isolation- from the authoritarians

    What does abortion have to do with the virus? And I thought libertarians would be likely to support abortion.

  83. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Mark G.

    Locking down a whole country has generally never been considered as an appropriate policy response to an epidemic until now.

    That’s true. I personally do not like the lockdowns. But the experience of Australia and New Zealand suggests that they work. And if you look at a communist dictatorship like Victoria the unpleasant truth is that they crushed the second wave of COVID-19 very comprehensively.

    The other unpleasant truth is that the lockdowns have been very popular.

    I suspect that the lockdowns have been more severe than they needed to be. Possibly even much more severe than they needed to be. What mattered was not how strict the lockdowns were but how early they were applied. Whatever response was chosen it needed to be prompt. An early lockdown is much much better than a late lockdown.

    I have no time for economic libertarianism but I do have some sympathy for social libertarianism.

    For example, most libertarians would say you have a right to get drunk but not drive while drunk. A libertarian wouldn’t advocate making alcohol illegal, though, to help prevent car accidents.

    I’d agree with that position.

    The other huge mistake that was made by many western governments early on was focusing on China. For example the virus does not seem to have entered Australia from China. It seems to have entered Australia from the United States. It seems likely that it entered the US from Italy. An immediate complete short-term ban on all international travel would have avoided many of the problems that later arose.

    • Agree: Mark G.
  84. @dfordoom

    In other words, how many people would have to die before libertarians were prepared to actually do something?

    Wrong question. How many Americans have to die, whether by epidemic or by state action, while the state rebuilds the public trust it has so casually shattered?

    As any father of an unruly child knows, coërcion is sometimes necessary; but when necessary it nevertheless usually exposes a failure of authority (even if this failure is not always precisely the father’s fault). Trust is superior to coërcion.

    In the United States, this vaccine problem cannot be blamed on libertarians.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  85. dfordoom says: • Website
    @V. K. Ovelund

    In the United States, this vaccine problem cannot be blamed on libertarians.

    It was governmental incompetence in the US (and other countries such as Britain) that caused the virus to become a problem in the first place. And I agree that it’s reasonable to be sceptical when the same incompetents tell us, “You can trust us. We’re the government. We know what we’re doing.”

    So I don’t really disagree with you. I disagree with libertarians in that I think government is necessary, but competent government is necessary. Obviously the more corrupt and incompetent governments become the less people trust them. But since the problem was allowed to get out of control I’m not convinced that libertarians can offer a solution.

    It will be very very interesting to see how many people do volunteer to take the vaccine. I suspect that most people will take it because they’re desperate for a solution to be found and they’ll embrace the vaccine as the magical solution. And I suspect there’ll be a lot of public hostility towards people who refuse to take the vaccine.

  86. nymom says:
    @Adam Smith

    Maybe it’s because we start children too early on cereals. Most cereals have some form of peanut oil in them or other ingredients associated with peanuts. Starting them too early could be causing their body to react negatively to peanuts later.

    I, myself, became allergic to shellfish when I was about 40. I loved shrimp and lobster and ate it very frequently in large amounts…One day after 20 years of eating shellfish my eyes swelled up and I had to go to the ER. The diagnosis: allergic to shellfish and there ended my days of eating shrimp.

    Now I avoid seafood restaurants since I miss the shrimp and shellfish so much when I am in them…just looking at platters for other tables going past me makes me start missing it all over again.

    Oh well.

    • Replies: @Adam Smith
  87. @dfordoom

    You’re being pretty cavalier, basically asserting that if your overlords tell you that their hastily-concocted vaccine passes muster, then you’ll just join the scold’s chorus, wagging your finger at anyone who disagrees.

    Your overlords have a track record of dishonesty on every issue, without exception – including, but not limited to, the rushed vaccine administered in response to a scary respiratory virus (‘swine flu’) in the 1976. But let’s have historically-ignorant Doomers wagging their fingers like Methodist spinsters, just in case this time the government’s not full of shit.

    If you’re stupid enough to continue to believe the political class, that’s one thing. To actively become a scold on their behalf is qualitatively very different: it shows that you don’t have anything interesting going on in your own life, so you have to be a ‘joiner’ who gets satisfaction from sanctimony.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  88. @nymom

    Maybe it’s because we start children too early on cereals. Most cereals have some form of peanut oil in them or other ingredients associated with peanuts. Starting them too early could be causing their body to react negatively to peanuts later.

    Maybe.(?) As we are all different, there are likely many different reasons that different people develop an allergy to something. According to some people introducing your child to peanuts early is the key to preventing peanut allergy.(?)

    I know an old timey farmer who believes that the increase in peanut allergy is largely due to the pesticides and fungicides used in commercial peanut farming.

    I believe that much of the increase in peanut allergy is likely caused by injections. I used to have an old medical book from the 1860’s(ish), (unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the author or the title and have lost my copy through the hands of time) that explained succinctly and convincingly that mammals will develop an allergy to any foreign protein injected into their tissue when injected in sufficient quantity. Perhaps it is caused by other things like an overabundance of pollution and toxins in our environment, or something else, eroding the capability of our immune systems?

    Maybe it is a combination of all of the above.(?)

    I’m sorry to hear about your misfortune.
    I love shellfish and hope I never develop a shellfish allergy.

    It is possible to be allergic to some shellfish and not others. Maybe you can enjoy some shellfish if you are careful to get high quality product from a clean, local source and stay away from that which you are truly allergic to.(?)

    Because shellfish carry parasites and other toxins, I treat it like pork, rabbit or squirrel and only eat it if it was harvested in cold weather months (months with an R in the name) and from a clean environment, which is increasingly difficult to do. Shellfish can be problematic in the summer for many reasons and according to this article people on the Georgia coast have been observing the “R rule” for at least 4,000 years. Leviticus warns us that shellfish is unclean for good reason.

    What sort of shellfish did you eat the night you had your eye swelling/trip to the ER?
    Was it from imported from China, Vietnam or Thailand?

    Perhaps you are not truly allergic, but experienced shellfish poisoning?
    Or some other sort of food poisoning from cross contamination or such?

    Perhaps one day you can enjoy some tasty shrimp or oysters?

    In any case, I hope you have a nice evening.

  89. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Kratoklastes

    You’re being pretty cavalier, basically asserting that if your overlords tell you that their hastily-concocted vaccine passes muster, then you’ll just join the scold’s chorus, wagging your finger at anyone who disagrees.

    If you read the various comments I’ve made on this issue you’ll see that I’m sceptical that the vaccine will pass muster. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. I’d have been more confident if there’d been long-term testing.

    I just don’t have all that much sympathy for specifically libertarian objections to the vaccine since they seem to be too much along the lines, “Who cares if sick people die? I’m not sick so I don’t care.” I’m not really hostile to social libertarianism in general (although I’m very hostile to economic libertarianism) but on this issue they aren’t presenting their case in a very effective or attractive manner. When you present your case in a way that makes you sound like a selfish a*hole you have a PR problem.

    As I’ve said before it will be extremely interesting to see how many people are willing to take the vaccine voluntarily. And it will be interesting to see if libertarians suffer a backlash.

  90. @Alexander Turok

    The short answer is no, but it shouldn’t be a binary question. Polio, yes. Annual flu shot, though? That’s a lot less obvious to me.

  91. @nebulafox

    You learned to read before you learned how to speak? Wow.

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