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The percentages of Clinton, Trump, and third party voters who believe astrology is scientific:

More evidence of who f*cking loves science! and who is a superstitious deplorable.

GSS variables used: ASTROSCI(1-2)(3), PRES16(1-3)

 
• Category: Culture/Society, Science • Tags: GSS, Science 
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  1. How can this survey be right? I thought all “climate change” deniers (i.e. global warming) were anti science?

  2. I wonder how many of the respondents took astrology to mean astronomy?

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Truth
    @Daniel Williams

    Astrology is much more legitimate than astronomy.

    If you believe we are living on a spinning ball hurdling through space, yet somehow you don't feel any movement, and the North Star has been in the same place for 4,000 years, you are an imbecile.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @anon, @Cloudbuster, @Technite78

  3. A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an “intellectual”—find out how he feels about astrology.
    Robert A. Heinlein, 1970 or so

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @anon

    This poll has nothing to do with it, and what Heinlein thought about it has nothing to do with it also.

  4. I think this is partly explained by the fact that women believe in astrology more than men do, and Hillary won the women’s vote. Still, that would not fully explain the large difference, and this is a very interesting chart.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @SafeNow

    I'd really want to see a breakdown by sex. I'd suspect Republican women have the old Christian suspicion of anything that smacks of the occult.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

  5. “Believers” in astrology can number among their ranks Aristotle, Dante Alighieri, and Sir Isaac Newton, all of whom were once thought to be not quite dimwitted. The canard that only the superstitious and uneducated take to astrology is one of the least supported shibboleths of the HBD types, second only to their insistent Darwinism.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Agreed, I know of an astrologist in Moscow who has a kandidat degree (something between a Master's degree and a Ph.D., the Soviet/Russian system isn't completely congruent with the American) in biology from MGU, one of the top universities in Russia.

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Yeah, and I've known a couple of Cosmologists who believe in astrology too. One of them cut my hair the other day. Well, there was shampoo in my eyes, but I think that license said "Cosmology"??

    , @anon
    @Intelligent Dasein

    “Believers” in astrology can number among their ranks Aristotle, Dante Alighieri, and Sir Isaac Newton, all of whom were once thought to be not quite dimwitted.

    "Intelligent" and "infallible" are not synonyms, but "appeal to authority" is still a fallacy.

    Replies: @Anon

    , @nokangaroos
    @Intelligent Dasein

    IIRC Kepler held that "astrology by her whore´s wages has to support the noble sister".
    Much the same for Newton and Aristoteles.

    To Popper of course it is science - as opposed to, say, paleontology :P

    , @SFG
    @Intelligent Dasein

    The last of whom died in 1727?

    Replies: @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    , @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    @Intelligent Dasein

    While they probably answered it as "do you believe in astrology" the question is phrased as whether it is "scientific", so it's different from the other survey in that there is certainly a right and wrong answer. Whether astrology was genuine or bullshit, it is definitionally not scientific, it's explicitly based on mysticism.

  6. @Intelligent Dasein
    "Believers" in astrology can number among their ranks Aristotle, Dante Alighieri, and Sir Isaac Newton, all of whom were once thought to be not quite dimwitted. The canard that only the superstitious and uneducated take to astrology is one of the least supported shibboleths of the HBD types, second only to their insistent Darwinism.

    Replies: @AP, @Achmed E. Newman, @anon, @nokangaroos, @SFG, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Agreed, I know of an astrologist in Moscow who has a kandidat degree (something between a Master’s degree and a Ph.D., the Soviet/Russian system isn’t completely congruent with the American) in biology from MGU, one of the top universities in Russia.

  7. Women believe in hokey stuff, always have and always will, lindy

    New age scene is chock full of women who are absolute followers and will do whatever they are told to do.

    Would be great to use right wing e-girls (tradthots, conservathots, wigthots, etc) to target this market. Rather than grifting from thirsty men on our own side.

    Huge source of money, votes and pussy that we’re not even contesting right now

    Richard Spencer should have started a literal cult, would have gotten way more accomplished and probably been more fun for him too

  8. Ah yes the demographic of single women who base relationships on astrology. Great for the rest of us

  9. @Intelligent Dasein
    "Believers" in astrology can number among their ranks Aristotle, Dante Alighieri, and Sir Isaac Newton, all of whom were once thought to be not quite dimwitted. The canard that only the superstitious and uneducated take to astrology is one of the least supported shibboleths of the HBD types, second only to their insistent Darwinism.

    Replies: @AP, @Achmed E. Newman, @anon, @nokangaroos, @SFG, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Yeah, and I’ve known a couple of Cosmologists who believe in astrology too. One of them cut my hair the other day. Well, there was shampoo in my eyes, but I think that license said “Cosmology”??

    • LOL: SafeNow
  10. Quote “More evidence of who f*cking loves science! and who is a superstitious deplorable.”

    How appallingly bigoted and subjective.
    Astrology has a track record spanning millennia. The Magi of Biblical fame were Astrologers who had mastered this science to a very high degree. That’s why they understood the significance of, and went to the considerable effort to visit, that little stable in Bethlehem.
    In our “enlightened” times (with eg, everybody happily dying in the care of “advanced” Western “medicine”) the body of knowledge that was Astrology seems largely lost, reduced in popular culture to cheap entertainment in news rags and crappy magazines.
    BUT rather than being derisive, perhaps we should rather be concerned that something as powerful as the hiddent science of Astrology is allegedly being resurrected and exploited by evil forces intent on world domination. That possibility worries me a good deal more than, eg, the pseudo-religious scare-campaign being championed for the last 30 years by the oh-so-scientific “global warming” – whoops! I mean, “climate change” cult.

  11. “Astrology is at least somewhat scientific”

    Hillary Cliton voters: 44.4%

    Trump voters: 24.3%

    A twenty-point spread. But simply controlling for race, 60% of that difference evaporates.

    Astrology is very scientific” + “Astrology is sort of scientific

    White non-Hispanic Clinton voters in Nov. 2016 (n=164)
    – 32.9%

    White non-Hispanic Trump voters in Nov. 2016 (n=260)
    – 24.9%

    ASTROSCI(1-3), PRES16(1-3), HISPANIC(1), RACE(1); COMPWT (the same weighting as was used to derive the 44.4%-24.3% above).

    • Replies: @Hail
    @Hail


    White non-Hispanic Clinton voters in Nov. 2016 (n=164)
    – 32.9%

    White non-Hispanic Trump voters in Nov. 2016 (n=260)
    – 24.9%
     

    If further breaking down by sex, we see the big gap is between woman and men in general (a 20 point spread -- and as might easily be expected). A secondary, intra-female political gap also exists, in which white female Hillary voters believe in astrology more than white female Trump voters (10-point spread).

    There is no difference in astrology belief among men, in terms of politics.

    _________

    White non-Hispanic Female Clinton voters (n=106)
    - 41.1%

    White non-Hispanic Female Trump voters (n=147)
    - 31.4%

    _________

    White non-Hispanic Male Clinton voters (n=58)
    - 17.8%

    White non-Hispanic Male Trump voters (n=112)
    - 16.4%

    _________

    WF Trump voters believe in astrology much more than WM Hillary voters.

    Replies: @Cloudbuster

  12. @Intelligent Dasein
    "Believers" in astrology can number among their ranks Aristotle, Dante Alighieri, and Sir Isaac Newton, all of whom were once thought to be not quite dimwitted. The canard that only the superstitious and uneducated take to astrology is one of the least supported shibboleths of the HBD types, second only to their insistent Darwinism.

    Replies: @AP, @Achmed E. Newman, @anon, @nokangaroos, @SFG, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    IIRC Kepler held that “astrology by her whore´s wages has to support the noble sister”.
    Much the same for Newton and Aristoteles.

    To Popper of course it is science – as opposed to, say, paleontology 😛

  13. @Intelligent Dasein
    "Believers" in astrology can number among their ranks Aristotle, Dante Alighieri, and Sir Isaac Newton, all of whom were once thought to be not quite dimwitted. The canard that only the superstitious and uneducated take to astrology is one of the least supported shibboleths of the HBD types, second only to their insistent Darwinism.

    Replies: @AP, @Achmed E. Newman, @anon, @nokangaroos, @SFG, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    “Believers” in astrology can number among their ranks Aristotle, Dante Alighieri, and Sir Isaac Newton, all of whom were once thought to be not quite dimwitted.

    “Intelligent” and “infallible” are not synonyms, but “appeal to authority” is still a fallacy.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Anon
    @anon


    “Intelligent” and “infallible” are not synonyms, but “appeal to authority” is still a fallacy.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
  14. This is why Marianne Williamson is running as a Democrat.

  15. @Daniel Williams
    I wonder how many of the respondents took astrology to mean astronomy?

    Replies: @Truth

    Astrology is much more legitimate than astronomy.

    If you believe we are living on a spinning ball hurdling through space, yet somehow you don’t feel any movement, and the North Star has been in the same place for 4,000 years, you are an imbecile.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Truth

    It was mostly the same guys into Astronomy, like Isaac Newton, that discovered the physical laws that explain what you can't seem to, Truth. Newton's 2nd law will reveal that no forces will need to be exerted on a body (i.e. you "don't feel anything") if there is no acceleration.

    Just looking at the Earth's own rotation, there IS an acceleration. Everyone and everything is accelerating TOWARDS the center of the Earth, though the rotation rate is constant (least on a human time scale). Yes, velocity is a vector, and a change in DIRECTION, not just MAGNITUDE, is an acceleration. It's easy to calculate how much a (in the radial direction) = rω^2. It turns out that the force needed to produce that acceleration is not insignificant but still much lower than the gravitational force from Earth's mass.

    It's not known by many, unless one can do freshman physics, that one would feel slightly lighter at the poles of Earth than at the equator, with obviously a continuum of the function in between. I'll leave the trivial math for the other commenters, as I'm lying down here, but I think the difference was in the range of a percent.

    Speaking of laying down, I can forgive Neil Young for not understanding the physics either, as he was one hell of a musician.

    "Oh, oh, this old world keeps spinning round.
    It's a wonder tall trees ain't layin' down.
    There comes s time ..."


    Great backing vocals too on this album, by Nicolette Larson, a 1970s artist in her own right.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxH_4e7W7hc

    Truth, maybe you and Neil could take a continuing ed class in physics together. Wouldn't that be cool?!

    Replies: @Twodees Partain

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Truth

    Polaris, the "North Star" is just within 1 degree of arc from the point of intersection of the Earth's axis with the star field. I will agree that having a magnitude-2 star right there is pretty lucky (or divine providence), as it was sure helpful for navigation back in the day. I can't remember if it's been 4,000 years that it's been near a good position like this, but obviously it doesn't stay there in the long term due to:

    a) The precession of the Earth's axis
    b) The actual movements of Polars and Earth

    The cool thing is that, even if one is not an avid stargazer, one can find Polaris easily by extending the line segment that goes between the 2 stars at the outer edge of the bucket of the big dipper upwards (with reference to this "bucket") approximately 5 times. That'll get you there. Remember that this star is to the TRUE north*, not magnetic, so depending on where you live, it won't match a compass reading of north.

    .

    * within ~ 1 degree, that is, depending on the time of night. It'll vary from right on, (2 times per day, when it's on the top or bottom) in azimuth (which is what we usually want), but off in altitude of course, to that just under 1 degree off in azimuth but right on in altitude.

    Replies: @SafeNow

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Truth

    The acceleration of the Earth and everything on it toward the center of the solar system (basically, but not EXACTLY, where the sun is) is 0.00061 g or 0.06% of one g, not really noticeable. I am not laying down now, so let me do the other one (from 2 comments above): you get 0.0035 g or 0.3 % of a g for the acceleration toward the center of Earth at the equator. The "r" for this simple calculation goes to 0 at the poles.

    Now, Truth, ask me something about the effect of the next conjunction of minor planet P-ness with Uranus, and I couldn't answer.

    Replies: @Truth

    , @anon
    @Truth

    Truth is a flat-earther?
    Lol. No surprise.

    , @Cloudbuster
    @Truth

    My days of not taking you seriously are nowhere near over.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    , @Technite78
    @Truth

    I suspect I'd enjoy hearing you explain how GPS, satellite TV, or satellite radio work.

    But I also suspect you can't actually explain them.

  16. @Hail

    "Astrology is at least somewhat scientific"

    Hillary Cliton voters: 44.4%

    Trump voters: 24.3%
     
    A twenty-point spread. But simply controlling for race, 60% of that difference evaporates.

    "Astrology is very scientific" + "Astrology is sort of scientific"

    White non-Hispanic Clinton voters in Nov. 2016 (n=164)
    - 32.9%

    White non-Hispanic Trump voters in Nov. 2016 (n=260)
    - 24.9%

    ASTROSCI(1-3), PRES16(1-3), HISPANIC(1), RACE(1); COMPWT (the same weighting as was used to derive the 44.4%-24.3% above).

    Replies: @Hail

    White non-Hispanic Clinton voters in Nov. 2016 (n=164)
    – 32.9%

    White non-Hispanic Trump voters in Nov. 2016 (n=260)
    – 24.9%

    If further breaking down by sex, we see the big gap is between woman and men in general (a 20 point spread — and as might easily be expected). A secondary, intra-female political gap also exists, in which white female Hillary voters believe in astrology more than white female Trump voters (10-point spread).

    There is no difference in astrology belief among men, in terms of politics.

    _________

    White non-Hispanic Female Clinton voters (n=106)
    – 41.1%

    White non-Hispanic Female Trump voters (n=147)
    – 31.4%

    _________

    White non-Hispanic Male Clinton voters (n=58)
    – 17.8%

    White non-Hispanic Male Trump voters (n=112)
    – 16.4%

    _________

    WF Trump voters believe in astrology much more than WM Hillary voters.

    • Replies: @Cloudbuster
    @Hail

    Yet another reason to repeal the 19th amendment.

  17. Sir Isaac Newton was an astrology buff.

    True, he wouldn’t have gone for either Hillary or Trump and would have considered all current electioneering, even in his homeland, beneath contempt.

    But Newton “studied the matter” as he said, and determined astrology was probably partly true.

    • Replies: @Cloudbuster
    @Franz

    Being both brilliant and an expert in one field doesn't keep you from being spectacularly wrong in another field. It is a truism that there is are certain sorts of idiocy that only the highly educated can achieve.

    Replies: @iffen, @Nodwink, @Franz, @Daniel Chieh

    , @PetrOldSack
    @Franz

    If one believes in voting, then astrology is the least of the matter. Beyond contempt, a la Newton!

    , @SFG
    @Franz

    He lived hundreds of years ago. Scientific method was in its infancy and there was a lot less evidence against any of the things we call 'kooky' now. Plenty of quite brilliant scientists though the sun revolved around the earth--after all, we see it go around and we're not moving, right? It was only after extensive observation and calculation they were able to prove otherwise.

    Replies: @Anon

  18. @Hail
    @Hail


    White non-Hispanic Clinton voters in Nov. 2016 (n=164)
    – 32.9%

    White non-Hispanic Trump voters in Nov. 2016 (n=260)
    – 24.9%
     

    If further breaking down by sex, we see the big gap is between woman and men in general (a 20 point spread -- and as might easily be expected). A secondary, intra-female political gap also exists, in which white female Hillary voters believe in astrology more than white female Trump voters (10-point spread).

    There is no difference in astrology belief among men, in terms of politics.

    _________

    White non-Hispanic Female Clinton voters (n=106)
    - 41.1%

    White non-Hispanic Female Trump voters (n=147)
    - 31.4%

    _________

    White non-Hispanic Male Clinton voters (n=58)
    - 17.8%

    White non-Hispanic Male Trump voters (n=112)
    - 16.4%

    _________

    WF Trump voters believe in astrology much more than WM Hillary voters.

    Replies: @Cloudbuster

    Yet another reason to repeal the 19th amendment.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  19. @Franz
    Sir Isaac Newton was an astrology buff.

    True, he wouldn't have gone for either Hillary or Trump and would have considered all current electioneering, even in his homeland, beneath contempt.

    But Newton "studied the matter" as he said, and determined astrology was probably partly true.

    Replies: @Cloudbuster, @PetrOldSack, @SFG

    Being both brilliant and an expert in one field doesn’t keep you from being spectacularly wrong in another field. It is a truism that there is are certain sorts of idiocy that only the highly educated can achieve.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Cloudbuster

    It is a truism that there is are certain sorts of idiocy that only the highly educated can achieve.

    Verified on a daily basis in the comment sections of TUR.

    , @Nodwink
    @Cloudbuster

    In the case of Newton, he seems like a fairly typical example (there are many others) of someone who was extremely good at sums, but didn't grasp what those sums meant.

    It's also worth remembering that Newton did not live in a scientific age, despite this label often being applied to the world post-Galileo. We knew very little of how things worked back then.

    , @Franz
    @Cloudbuster

    Well hell.

    Newton would not have been Newton had he not been curious about EVERYTHING.

    Even the Great Thomas Edison wanted to build a system to talk to the dead... he felt even if they were not alive, they'd be somewhere on the electromagnetic spectrum so they'd still be available to talk to.

    Newton and Edison were men of their times. Their times were strange to us maybe. But they were alive to possibilities. Not a bad thing, I think.

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Cloudbuster

    I would say that in that era, it might even be reasonable to believe that astrology was true. The idea of a macrocosm and microcosm did have some explicatory value so taking it to its natural extent was not that far fetched.

  20. @Cloudbuster
    @Franz

    Being both brilliant and an expert in one field doesn't keep you from being spectacularly wrong in another field. It is a truism that there is are certain sorts of idiocy that only the highly educated can achieve.

    Replies: @iffen, @Nodwink, @Franz, @Daniel Chieh

    It is a truism that there is are certain sorts of idiocy that only the highly educated can achieve.

    Verified on a daily basis in the comment sections of TUR.

  21. @Cloudbuster
    @Franz

    Being both brilliant and an expert in one field doesn't keep you from being spectacularly wrong in another field. It is a truism that there is are certain sorts of idiocy that only the highly educated can achieve.

    Replies: @iffen, @Nodwink, @Franz, @Daniel Chieh

    In the case of Newton, he seems like a fairly typical example (there are many others) of someone who was extremely good at sums, but didn’t grasp what those sums meant.

    It’s also worth remembering that Newton did not live in a scientific age, despite this label often being applied to the world post-Galileo. We knew very little of how things worked back then.

  22. Sure, but Astrology is a science in the sense of it being the observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

  23. @Truth
    @Daniel Williams

    Astrology is much more legitimate than astronomy.

    If you believe we are living on a spinning ball hurdling through space, yet somehow you don't feel any movement, and the North Star has been in the same place for 4,000 years, you are an imbecile.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @anon, @Cloudbuster, @Technite78

    It was mostly the same guys into Astronomy, like Isaac Newton, that discovered the physical laws that explain what you can’t seem to, Truth. Newton’s 2nd law will reveal that no forces will need to be exerted on a body (i.e. you “don’t feel anything”) if there is no acceleration.

    Just looking at the Earth’s own rotation, there IS an acceleration. Everyone and everything is accelerating TOWARDS the center of the Earth, though the rotation rate is constant (least on a human time scale). Yes, velocity is a vector, and a change in DIRECTION, not just MAGNITUDE, is an acceleration. It’s easy to calculate how much a (in the radial direction) = rω^2. It turns out that the force needed to produce that acceleration is not insignificant but still much lower than the gravitational force from Earth’s mass.

    It’s not known by many, unless one can do freshman physics, that one would feel slightly lighter at the poles of Earth than at the equator, with obviously a continuum of the function in between. I’ll leave the trivial math for the other commenters, as I’m lying down here, but I think the difference was in the range of a percent.

    Speaking of laying down, I can forgive Neil Young for not understanding the physics either, as he was one hell of a musician.

    “Oh, oh, this old world keeps spinning round.
    It’s a wonder tall trees ain’t layin’ down.
    There comes s time …”

    Great backing vocals too on this album, by Nicolette Larson, a 1970s artist in her own right.

    Truth, maybe you and Neil could take a continuing ed class in physics together. Wouldn’t that be cool?!

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I remember Nicolette. She has a lovely voice. I never could stand Neil Young, though.

    "I hope Neil Young will remember,
    A Southern Man don't need him around, anyhow" - Sweet Home Alabama, Lynyrd Skynyrd

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPw_HJduwu0

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  24. @Truth
    @Daniel Williams

    Astrology is much more legitimate than astronomy.

    If you believe we are living on a spinning ball hurdling through space, yet somehow you don't feel any movement, and the North Star has been in the same place for 4,000 years, you are an imbecile.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @anon, @Cloudbuster, @Technite78

    Polaris, the “North Star” is just within 1 degree of arc from the point of intersection of the Earth’s axis with the star field. I will agree that having a magnitude-2 star right there is pretty lucky (or divine providence), as it was sure helpful for navigation back in the day. I can’t remember if it’s been 4,000 years that it’s been near a good position like this, but obviously it doesn’t stay there in the long term due to:

    a) The precession of the Earth’s axis
    b) The actual movements of Polars and Earth

    The cool thing is that, even if one is not an avid stargazer, one can find Polaris easily by extending the line segment that goes between the 2 stars at the outer edge of the bucket of the big dipper upwards (with reference to this “bucket”) approximately 5 times. That’ll get you there. Remember that this star is to the TRUE north*, not magnetic, so depending on where you live, it won’t match a compass reading of north.

    .

    * within ~ 1 degree, that is, depending on the time of night. It’ll vary from right on, (2 times per day, when it’s on the top or bottom) in azimuth (which is what we usually want), but off in altitude of course, to that just under 1 degree off in azimuth but right on in altitude.

    • Replies: @SafeNow
    @Achmed E. Newman

    You mention parenthetically that divine providence might have given us Polaris. Here’s a fun fact. Polaris is twice as bright as it was a few thousand years ago. It has brightened 100 times faster than the laws of stellar evolution would allow. Starting to sound like the parentheses should be removed?

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  25. @Truth
    @Daniel Williams

    Astrology is much more legitimate than astronomy.

    If you believe we are living on a spinning ball hurdling through space, yet somehow you don't feel any movement, and the North Star has been in the same place for 4,000 years, you are an imbecile.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @anon, @Cloudbuster, @Technite78

    The acceleration of the Earth and everything on it toward the center of the solar system (basically, but not EXACTLY, where the sun is) is 0.00061 g or 0.06% of one g, not really noticeable. I am not laying down now, so let me do the other one (from 2 comments above): you get 0.0035 g or 0.3 % of a g for the acceleration toward the center of Earth at the equator. The “r” for this simple calculation goes to 0 at the poles.

    Now, Truth, ask me something about the effect of the next conjunction of minor planet P-ness with Uranus, and I couldn’t answer.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Achmed E. Newman

    How have sailors been navigating by the same sytem of stars for 4,000 years (I know a Royal Navy ship captain who navigated his crew to North Carolina strictly by way of the stars a few years ago, just for kicks on his Naval Reserve assignment)...

    https://www.space.com/5849-navigating-stars.html

    ...When the Solar System is doing this (notice that this person termed his video "The helical model" sort of like "the theory of evolution")?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvgaxQGPg7I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9exwLEbIs4

    Now, I present for you a short translation/encapsulation of your entire science education...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6kRqnfsBEc

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @SafeNow

  26. What a fun little article! Of course Hillary voters by a near majority believe in astrology. We all know the damn woman was a witch (& a bitch too, funnily enough) — who else would she appeal to? Gun owners? (LOL!)

  27. More evidence of who f*cking loves science! and who is a superstitious deplorable.

    Yes, the left tends to be anti-science or pseudo-science. One example AGW.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Realist

    This is going to turn into a debate on AGW, but I think the evidence for that's pretty good--every year is the hottest year on record? Come on, something's up.

    Left-wing science denialism: gender ideology, anti-race realism.
    Right-wing science denialism: climate change, evolution.

    It boils down to 'people ignore aspects of reality that are inconvenient', which is just human behavior.

    One of the big problems is that universities are so left-wing, scientists won't speak out.

    Replies: @Realist, @neutral

    , @dfordoom
    @Realist


    Yes, the left tends to be anti-science or pseudo-science. One example AGW.
     
    Most people are irrational. Most people believe whatever it is that they believe based on emotion.

    Almost everyone only f*cking loves science! when it's consistent with their prejudices and their emotions.

    People who adhere to certain political ideologies believe certain irrational things, and people who adhere to other political ideologies believe different irrational things. Right-wingers who believe avidly in HBD do so because it's consistent with their dislike of particular races. Those who believe in global warming do so because it feels right emotionally - industrialisation must be wicked and unnatural. Trees good, factories bad.

    Everyone thinks that their own beliefs are rational and that other people's beliefs are irrational.

    Replies: @iffen, @Realist

  28. This is big business. Plenty of people won’t go to work in the morning without having a daily astrological consultation/check up – by phone, pay by the minute with a credit card.

  29. “Sure, but Astrology is a science in the sense of it being the observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.”

    It relies on too many subjective factors and interpretations to be predictively accurate.

    In my view.

  30. @SafeNow
    I think this is partly explained by the fact that women believe in astrology more than men do, and Hillary won the women's vote. Still, that would not fully explain the large difference, and this is a very interesting chart.

    Replies: @SFG

    I’d really want to see a breakdown by sex. I’d suspect Republican women have the old Christian suspicion of anything that smacks of the occult.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @SFG

    See Hail's comments above.

    Replies: @Silva

  31. @Realist

    More evidence of who f*cking loves science! and who is a superstitious deplorable.
     
    Yes, the left tends to be anti-science or pseudo-science. One example AGW.

    Replies: @SFG, @dfordoom

    This is going to turn into a debate on AGW, but I think the evidence for that’s pretty good–every year is the hottest year on record? Come on, something’s up.

    Left-wing science denialism: gender ideology, anti-race realism.
    Right-wing science denialism: climate change, evolution.

    It boils down to ‘people ignore aspects of reality that are inconvenient’, which is just human behavior.

    One of the big problems is that universities are so left-wing, scientists won’t speak out.

    • Replies: @Realist
    @SFG


    This is going to turn into a debate on AGW, but I think the evidence for that’s pretty good–every year is the hottest year on record? Come on, something’s up.
     
    Wow great proof of AGW. Something's up....so it has to be AGW? Not every year is the hottest year on record. Accurate temperature records only go back, at best 100 years. Hot and cold climates have been occurring on this planet for hundreds of millions of years.

    Right-wing science denialism: climate change, evolution.
     
    You changed the terminology....climate change does not equal AGW. My comment was on AGW. Climate = weather/time.

    Replies: @Nodwink

    , @neutral
    @SFG


    Right-wing science denialism: climate change, evolution.
     
    It is the left that is denying evolution, they believe that humans are all created equal 100 000 years or so ago and that all evolution afterwards completely stopped.
  32. @SFG
    @Realist

    This is going to turn into a debate on AGW, but I think the evidence for that's pretty good--every year is the hottest year on record? Come on, something's up.

    Left-wing science denialism: gender ideology, anti-race realism.
    Right-wing science denialism: climate change, evolution.

    It boils down to 'people ignore aspects of reality that are inconvenient', which is just human behavior.

    One of the big problems is that universities are so left-wing, scientists won't speak out.

    Replies: @Realist, @neutral

    This is going to turn into a debate on AGW, but I think the evidence for that’s pretty good–every year is the hottest year on record? Come on, something’s up.

    Wow great proof of AGW. Something’s up….so it has to be AGW? Not every year is the hottest year on record. Accurate temperature records only go back, at best 100 years. Hot and cold climates have been occurring on this planet for hundreds of millions of years.

    Right-wing science denialism: climate change, evolution.

    You changed the terminology….climate change does not equal AGW. My comment was on AGW. Climate = weather/time.

    • Replies: @Nodwink
    @Realist

    There's just no way that we can extract so many fossil fuels, burn them, and expect there to be only trivial effects on the climate. It's a denial of reality.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @Justvisiting, @Realist

  33. @Truth
    @Daniel Williams

    Astrology is much more legitimate than astronomy.

    If you believe we are living on a spinning ball hurdling through space, yet somehow you don't feel any movement, and the North Star has been in the same place for 4,000 years, you are an imbecile.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @anon, @Cloudbuster, @Technite78

    Truth is a flat-earther?
    Lol. No surprise.

  34. @Realist
    @SFG


    This is going to turn into a debate on AGW, but I think the evidence for that’s pretty good–every year is the hottest year on record? Come on, something’s up.
     
    Wow great proof of AGW. Something's up....so it has to be AGW? Not every year is the hottest year on record. Accurate temperature records only go back, at best 100 years. Hot and cold climates have been occurring on this planet for hundreds of millions of years.

    Right-wing science denialism: climate change, evolution.
     
    You changed the terminology....climate change does not equal AGW. My comment was on AGW. Climate = weather/time.

    Replies: @Nodwink

    There’s just no way that we can extract so many fossil fuels, burn them, and expect there to be only trivial effects on the climate. It’s a denial of reality.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @Nodwink

    Known and put out to the public in 1958.  It wasn't the least bit controversial... until it looked like we were going to DO something about it.  THEN the tobacco anti-scientists were hired to produce climate anti-science and the game was on.  That dates from about the founding of the IPCC in 1988.

    Replies: @iffen

    , @Justvisiting
    @Nodwink

    We have no clue what the effects are--"scientists" who claim otherwise are pathological liars.

    It seems that everyone has an agenda on this stuff--it is impossible to have a rational discussion at this point.

    One thing we know for sure--the wealthy and the powerful have absolutely no intention of modifying their lifestyle--however, they want the deplorables to do so.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    , @Realist
    @Nodwink


    It’s a denial of reality.
     
    Wow you must be a scientist...way to follow the scientific method.
  35. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Truth

    The acceleration of the Earth and everything on it toward the center of the solar system (basically, but not EXACTLY, where the sun is) is 0.00061 g or 0.06% of one g, not really noticeable. I am not laying down now, so let me do the other one (from 2 comments above): you get 0.0035 g or 0.3 % of a g for the acceleration toward the center of Earth at the equator. The "r" for this simple calculation goes to 0 at the poles.

    Now, Truth, ask me something about the effect of the next conjunction of minor planet P-ness with Uranus, and I couldn't answer.

    Replies: @Truth

    How have sailors been navigating by the same sytem of stars for 4,000 years (I know a Royal Navy ship captain who navigated his crew to North Carolina strictly by way of the stars a few years ago, just for kicks on his Naval Reserve assignment)…

    https://www.space.com/5849-navigating-stars.html

    …When the Solar System is doing this (notice that this person termed his video “The helical model” sort of like “the theory of evolution”)?

    Now, I present for you a short translation/encapsulation of your entire science education…

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Truth

    Hey, you know I like Seinfeld and that was no exception.

    Thing thing is, Truth, in my explanations to you, that stuff you read as "yada yada", well it's more properly called PHYSICS. You can write "yada yada" in your problem solutions in Physics 201 homework, but that will only cut it in the Historically Black Colleges. ;-}

    Replies: @Truth, @Truth

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Truth


    How have sailors been navigating by the same sytem of stars for 4,000 years...
     
    Well for one thing, they haven't. I imagine back in Mesopotamian times or what-have-you, those guys stuck pretty damn close to shore, and when they didn't, they may have used just Ded Reckoning and gotten lost a might bewildered quite often.

    Either way, Polaris is one thing, but the movement of the stars in real motion is too slow to have had an effect on human history, while the precession effect might. However, all one needs is to compare night to night, how high certain stars get above the horizon at their peaks, for latitude. The problem of finding longitude was another can of worms, not really nailed down until 500 years ago or so. The problem, Truth, was in knowing an accurate time after a long voyage. Clocks were not up to it for a long time.

    Peak Stupidity has 2 science posts, SCIENCE, Truth, that describe the clever use of Jupiter's moons (in both lunar eclipses and transits, which are basically solar eclipses on Jupiter with shadows only covering a minuscule portion of the disk) to nail down observation times. That time would give longitude:

    a) Either, after the voyage, back in England, when the science logs could be compared to astronomical tables made by the Royal Society.

    or

    b) If the science officer carried these "ephemeris" tables along, then latitude could be determined right then and there, and map-making could be done in real time. Of course, you needed some clear night skies.

    Read and learn about this cool science in "Eclipses and the Galilean Moons of Jupiter in the Age of Exploration: Part 1 and Part 2.

    Replies: @Truth

    , @SafeNow
    @Truth

    My personal counterpart to yada yada yada is the successful yuff yuff yuff. In Third-World countries officious people would sometimes offer to lend help or otherwise butt-in where that was not wanted; quite persistently. my refusals, from polite to stern, were unavailing. Then I tried saying Yuff Yuff Yuff!! and it worked. They must have thought I am insane or formidable or both.

    Replies: @Truth

  36. anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    I’ve been been told by Clinton voter types that Trump voters were on the whole less educated than those who voted for Clinton. They’re implying that Trump voters are just a bunch of toothless hillbillies. I have to point out that blacks are a major pillar of the Dem party and voted for her as a bloc. That’s the educated part of America? This poll probably understates the gullibility of Clinton voters.

    • Agree: jim jones
  37. Off topic, but…
    Pffffshwahahaha!
    http://twitter.com/NabeelAzeezDXB/status/1190819042690523136

    Peace.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    @Talha

    There seems to be a division between Muslims - there are some who say group identity is not a problem and that whites could become Muslim en masse and that's fine. But there are also (mainly black) muslims who seem to harbor the usual resentment against white people.

    Is this an accurate depiction, and do you see these types of arguments going on regularly? And which side is gaining the upper hand?

    Furthermore, how would you expect a mass conversion of whites to turn out? It would be a great influx of human capital and wealth, for sure, but would you not be suspicious that whites would ruin it over time, either with liberalism, or individualism, which seems hardwired in us?

    I've been investigating this with more interest lately. Some of those Muslim Twitter guys talk a good game with respect to "white shariah" - which I believe would be a positive thing- what the Groypers and alt right are essentially looking for.

    Unfortunately, then I go into the world and sense a great deal of anger, mistrust, and resentment from Muslims towards "white people". The Canadian leftists, at least, have created a heavy intersection between Islam and "person of colour". Perhaps by design.

    Replies: @Talha

    , @Truth
    @Talha

    Hey Talha, right back at ya... and back to the topic at the same time.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPcTvl0TbL8

  38. @Truth
    @Achmed E. Newman

    How have sailors been navigating by the same sytem of stars for 4,000 years (I know a Royal Navy ship captain who navigated his crew to North Carolina strictly by way of the stars a few years ago, just for kicks on his Naval Reserve assignment)...

    https://www.space.com/5849-navigating-stars.html

    ...When the Solar System is doing this (notice that this person termed his video "The helical model" sort of like "the theory of evolution")?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvgaxQGPg7I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9exwLEbIs4

    Now, I present for you a short translation/encapsulation of your entire science education...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6kRqnfsBEc

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @SafeNow

    Hey, you know I like Seinfeld and that was no exception.

    Thing thing is, Truth, in my explanations to you, that stuff you read as “yada yada”, well it’s more properly called PHYSICS. You can write “yada yada” in your problem solutions in Physics 201 homework, but that will only cut it in the Historically Black Colleges. ;-}

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Achmed E. Newman

    So physics explains to you that when you are in Antartica, your head is literally below your feet as you are standing... that the earth is moving at 66,600 per hour (literally), yet somehow we have these things called "satellites" that can keep up with it, even though the fastest planes only move at 2,100...That hot jet fuel, which burns at 1,500 degrees can melt steel which melts at 2,000...that "gravity" will cause water you spill from a cup to go to the floor, but will not cause the water on on our spinning ball-home to all fall off... And I can go on... and on... and on.

    Unfortunately son, your education was a fraud. Sure they gave you enough so that you could build a bridge, but all of your conceptual education was a complete mirage.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    , @Truth
    @Achmed E. Newman

    ...You see Old Sport, when you proudly received your "science" degree, your slavemasters gave you one of these to put on your head:

    https://www.masoncontractors.org/images/auction/gatorback-mortar-boards-10-pack-3.jpg

    That's called a "mortar board." The symbology is that the last four years has prepared you to be a lowly, and not too bright, physical laborer, for the actual builders. You carry and scrape, they build. Don't worry about what they are building, just learn enough to make mortar so the bricks stay together. I belive you can handle that.

    Oh, and moving the tassle from right to left? That is meant to mimic the path of the sun; not the path of the earth, no, that is not what I wrote. I wrote, the path of the sun.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35Dk9gdtrmg

    Notice that celebrities rarely wear mortar boards when they collect honorary degrees.

    But hey, keep up those alumni donations...

  39. @Realist

    More evidence of who f*cking loves science! and who is a superstitious deplorable.
     
    Yes, the left tends to be anti-science or pseudo-science. One example AGW.

    Replies: @SFG, @dfordoom

    Yes, the left tends to be anti-science or pseudo-science. One example AGW.

    Most people are irrational. Most people believe whatever it is that they believe based on emotion.

    Almost everyone only f*cking loves science! when it’s consistent with their prejudices and their emotions.

    People who adhere to certain political ideologies believe certain irrational things, and people who adhere to other political ideologies believe different irrational things. Right-wingers who believe avidly in HBD do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. Those who believe in global warming do so because it feels right emotionally – industrialisation must be wicked and unnatural. Trees good, factories bad.

    Everyone thinks that their own beliefs are rational and that other people’s beliefs are irrational.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @dfordoom

    Most people are irrational. Most people believe whatever it is that they believe based on emotion.

    Not me! Just the facts for me, sir.

    Everyone thinks that their own beliefs are rational and that other people’s beliefs are irrational.

    I do wonder how you, JV and Mr. R. can be so "right" on most issues, but completely looney on others.

    , @Realist
    @dfordoom


    Right-wingers who believe avidly in HBD do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races.
     
    No, HBD exists.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  40. @Truth
    @Achmed E. Newman

    How have sailors been navigating by the same sytem of stars for 4,000 years (I know a Royal Navy ship captain who navigated his crew to North Carolina strictly by way of the stars a few years ago, just for kicks on his Naval Reserve assignment)...

    https://www.space.com/5849-navigating-stars.html

    ...When the Solar System is doing this (notice that this person termed his video "The helical model" sort of like "the theory of evolution")?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvgaxQGPg7I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9exwLEbIs4

    Now, I present for you a short translation/encapsulation of your entire science education...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6kRqnfsBEc

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @SafeNow

    How have sailors been navigating by the same sytem of stars for 4,000 years…

    Well for one thing, they haven’t. I imagine back in Mesopotamian times or what-have-you, those guys stuck pretty damn close to shore, and when they didn’t, they may have used just Ded Reckoning and gotten lost a might bewildered quite often.

    Either way, Polaris is one thing, but the movement of the stars in real motion is too slow to have had an effect on human history, while the precession effect might. However, all one needs is to compare night to night, how high certain stars get above the horizon at their peaks, for latitude. The problem of finding longitude was another can of worms, not really nailed down until 500 years ago or so. The problem, Truth, was in knowing an accurate time after a long voyage. Clocks were not up to it for a long time.

    Peak Stupidity has 2 science posts, SCIENCE, Truth, that describe the clever use of Jupiter’s moons (in both lunar eclipses and transits, which are basically solar eclipses on Jupiter with shadows only covering a minuscule portion of the disk) to nail down observation times. That time would give longitude:

    a) Either, after the voyage, back in England, when the science logs could be compared to astronomical tables made by the Royal Society.

    or

    b) If the science officer carried these “ephemeris” tables along, then latitude could be determined right then and there, and map-making could be done in real time. Of course, you needed some clear night skies.

    Read and learn about this cool science in “Eclipses and the Galilean Moons of Jupiter in the Age of Exploration: Part 1 and Part 2.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Truth
    @Achmed E. Newman


    How Did Ancient Sailors Navigate The Globe?
    In the wake of the 16th century, the ancient art of navigation set its course aggressively in response to sea explorers who were determined out there to find landmarks, locations of their adventurous discoveries as well as establish routes linking their new land discoveries and their home. In essence, the beginning of the two decades of the 16th century, ancient sailors saw the aggressive application of astronomy and mathematics to navigate. About four thousand years ago, the Phoenicians became the first ancient sailors to have developed the art of navigation at sea.
     
    https://essaymojo.com/essay/how-did-ancient-sailors-navigate-the-globe-essay/


    Either way, Polaris is one thing, but the movement of the stars in real motion is too slow to have had an effect on human history, while the precession effect might. However, all one needs is to compare night to night, how high certain stars get above the horizon at their peaks, for latitude.
     
    Again, the so-called; "solar system" has been united in a path of irrational movement, with no rhyme or reason that scientists know of, since the beginning of time; so how is it that the same stars visible 4,000 years ago, are still visible today?
  41. My wife the Astrologer is a firm supporter of the President. He’s not perfect by any stretch, but he’s been good at administration and turning over various rotting logs in the bureaucratic forest.

  42. @Nodwink
    @Realist

    There's just no way that we can extract so many fossil fuels, burn them, and expect there to be only trivial effects on the climate. It's a denial of reality.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @Justvisiting, @Realist

    Known and put out to the public in 1958.  It wasn’t the least bit controversial… until it looked like we were going to DO something about it.  THEN the tobacco anti-scientists were hired to produce climate anti-science and the game was on.  That dates from about the founding of the IPCC in 1988.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Mr. Rational

    Mr. R, have you read very much on permafrost melting? The little that I have read makes me believe that it could be very bad for us at some point, bad in a bad way.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

  43. @Nodwink
    @Realist

    There's just no way that we can extract so many fossil fuels, burn them, and expect there to be only trivial effects on the climate. It's a denial of reality.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @Justvisiting, @Realist

    We have no clue what the effects are–“scientists” who claim otherwise are pathological liars.

    It seems that everyone has an agenda on this stuff–it is impossible to have a rational discussion at this point.

    One thing we know for sure–the wealthy and the powerful have absolutely no intention of modifying their lifestyle–however, they want the deplorables to do so.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @Justvisiting


    One thing we know for sure–the wealthy and the powerful have absolutely no intention of modifying their lifestyle–however, they want the deplorables to do so.
     
    Then our mission is to fix the problem without demanding lifestyle changes anyone doesn't like, isn't it?  Like making our cars go, but without petroleum.  Tesla has one answer to that; there are others.

    We used to be a smart, capable country.  We are the only one to put men on the moon (thus far).  What have we become?

    Replies: @anon

  44. @Talha
    Off topic, but...
    Pffffshwahahaha!
    http://twitter.com/NabeelAzeezDXB/status/1190819042690523136

    Peace.

    Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker, @Truth

    There seems to be a division between Muslims – there are some who say group identity is not a problem and that whites could become Muslim en masse and that’s fine. But there are also (mainly black) muslims who seem to harbor the usual resentment against white people.

    Is this an accurate depiction, and do you see these types of arguments going on regularly? And which side is gaining the upper hand?

    Furthermore, how would you expect a mass conversion of whites to turn out? It would be a great influx of human capital and wealth, for sure, but would you not be suspicious that whites would ruin it over time, either with liberalism, or individualism, which seems hardwired in us?

    I’ve been investigating this with more interest lately. Some of those Muslim Twitter guys talk a good game with respect to “white shariah” – which I believe would be a positive thing- what the Groypers and alt right are essentially looking for.

    Unfortunately, then I go into the world and sense a great deal of anger, mistrust, and resentment from Muslims towards “white people”. The Canadian leftists, at least, have created a heavy intersection between Islam and “person of colour”. Perhaps by design.

    • Replies: @Talha
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker


    There seems to be a division between Muslims
     
    Yes.

    This is a long one and off topic since you brought up a hot issue in the Muslim community which is blowing up right now, so I thought it best not to bother people. See rest under MORE tag.


    there are some who say group identity is not a problem and that whites could become Muslim en masse and that’s fine.
     
    This is the traditional crowd, the one that has serious Muslim scholarship behind it.

    But there are also (mainly black) muslims who seem to harbor the usual resentment against white people.
     
    This is the "woke" Muslim crowd. Mostly people that have tangential (if any) relationship to religiou scholarship and mostly graduated from some CRT-woke-SJW-studies university program. And there are plenty of brown Muslims in there too.

    Is this an accurate depiction
     
    Fairly.

    do you see these types of arguments going on regularly?
     
    Mostly online - which is a cesspool over-represented by chattering "woke" Muslims. Most of the traditional scholars consider much of Muslim Twitter to be full of borderline murtads (apostates) and zindiqs (heretics). I only see this attitude among the activist-Left-liberal Muslim crowd. I have never seen anything but being welcoming to white converts among serious people of this religion and coming to their defense.

    And which side is gaining the upper hand?
     
    Time will tell, but "woke" Muslims aren't really having families and kids, having drunk from the kool-aid. They own the organizations and make a lot of noise online, but - as Dr. Shadee Elmasry once pointed out, the traditional crowd fully owns the mosques.

    It's an upside down world. In places like the West, we have "woke" Muslims coming into countries as minorities and then insulting their majority white populations. While in Muslim-majority lands, even quite black-African ones like Gambia, traditional Muslims invite white Muslim scholars (like Dr. Umar Faruq Abdallah) and other converts to hold conferences to learn from their knowledge and experiences:
    http://qadriyya.org/conference/10th-annual-conference-2018-videos

    By the way, he has a great set of talks on Islam and how it connects with identity, culture and community:
    https://www.halaltube.com/speaker/umar-faruq-abd-allah

    Traditional Black Muslim scholars like Shaykh Abdullah Ali can cut through the fog and diagnose why certain white people are reacting the way they are:
    http://twitter.com/BinhamidAli/status/1157899053474226179


    Furthermore, how would you expect a mass conversion of whites to turn out?
     
    Hopefully like the conversion of our brothers like the peoples of the Caucasus; Avars, Daghestanis, Chechens, Circassians, etc.

    Anyone who claims to be Muslim who would not be happy if whites converted en masse, or Thais or some Amazonian tribe, etc. has a deficiency in their faith and a disease in their heart they need to work on.


    would you not be suspicious that whites would ruin it over time, either with liberalism, or individualism, which seems hardwired in us?
     
    No - this religion doesn't change its principles for anyone. Has anyone else been able to change it? Do you find anywhere that practicing Muslims say you don't need to pray 5 times a day. It is called submission for a reason - it is rock solid. The reason people join it is because they realize there is something with themselves that they need to change.

    There isn't a problem with individualism per se. Some cultures are more individualistic than others and that is perfectly alright if it is within acceptable parameters. The shariah defines what those parameters are; it basically draws you a picture - every culture is free to color the picture as they please as long as they stay within the lines.


    “white shariah”
     
    There is no such thing as "white shariah" or "black shariah" or "yellow shariah"; the shariah is its own framework that has stood the test of time for 14 centuries over vast cultures. "White shariah" is a meme and a caricature that wouldn't even be approved by Muslim scholars for how extreme it is.

    I'll give you an example of how serious community works. Our crew is very traditional and every week, we hold a spiritual gathering at the mosque. To allow for the womenfolk to benefit as much as possible, there is free babysitting offered. The babysitting is run entirely by the men. Middle-aged men who are doctors (literally some being ER attendings), IT professionals, managers in corporations that humble themselves to sit with little kids and tell them stories about cats and squirrels and do arts and crafts with them. This is what it takes to have a community - not some fantasy that will alienate most sane women.


    I go into the world and sense a great deal of anger, mistrust, and resentment from Muslims towards “white people”
     
    This last weekend, we hosted a spiritual retreat in a local mosque. Brothers came from all over the country. I met a white convert brother named Robert from my old stomping grounds in California. Ex-Marine, tall, blue-eyed, beard like ZZ-Top - his wife and mother also converted. Very cool brother. I made sure he hooked up with another brother who was my roommate in UCLA; a Chinese brother (married to a Southern white convert) who helps organize stuff like martial-arts classes, hikes, camping and shooting-at-the-range with other brothers. They will be adding Robert to the crew. Race wasn't even an issue - not in the crowd I roll with. In our traditional crowd, the conversation starts with; "how can the universal spiritual brotherhood of Islam accommodate your/my tribe" - it never begins with "how can your/my tribe accommodate the universal brotherhood of Islam." If you want a great take on the subject of white Muslim identity, I suggest listening to this (starting at 1:14 - really kicks off at 1:19) on the question of "Is it OK to be a white Muslim?" Dr. Shadee Elmasry, a respected traditional Muslim scholar expounds on the concept of identity/tribe and how it is accommodated in Islam and what the shariah demands as its limits:
    https://soundcloud.com/safina-society/docs-news-halloween-alternatives-self-control-twitter

    A great quote from Br. Ilyas Alex Lahoz (who is a Latino convert):
    "It's almost like people assume automatically because white people are getting together on the basis of white identity - whatever that means - that it's eventually going to turn into the KKK; which is a ridculous assumption, especially of your brothers in Islam."

    Note, that this is the shaykh (Abdul Aziz Suraqa - a white convert scholar from Georgia [now an imam at a major mosque in Pittsburgh] with impeccable credentials; having studied in Yemen, Mauritania and Morocco) that Dr. Shadee stated that he is happy seeing popping up on his home page every day:
    http://www.cerisnet.org/sites/default/files/Suraqa.jpg

    Take away lesson - stay away from the loud "woke" Muslims and take them about as seriously as we do, and you will be fine.

    Peace.

    Note: Russel Brand would make an awesome Sufi shaykh:
    http://twitter.com/thehussein1001/status/1185875143094165505

    Replies: @Talha

  45. • Replies: @iffen
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    OT – Curious to know how so called peaceful separation solves this:

    White areas will not have public transportation. What are you some sort of fake WN?

    Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    My argument: It's not a panacea, but it is an improvement.

  46. @Franz
    Sir Isaac Newton was an astrology buff.

    True, he wouldn't have gone for either Hillary or Trump and would have considered all current electioneering, even in his homeland, beneath contempt.

    But Newton "studied the matter" as he said, and determined astrology was probably partly true.

    Replies: @Cloudbuster, @PetrOldSack, @SFG

    If one believes in voting, then astrology is the least of the matter. Beyond contempt, a la Newton!

  47. @dfordoom
    @Realist


    Yes, the left tends to be anti-science or pseudo-science. One example AGW.
     
    Most people are irrational. Most people believe whatever it is that they believe based on emotion.

    Almost everyone only f*cking loves science! when it's consistent with their prejudices and their emotions.

    People who adhere to certain political ideologies believe certain irrational things, and people who adhere to other political ideologies believe different irrational things. Right-wingers who believe avidly in HBD do so because it's consistent with their dislike of particular races. Those who believe in global warming do so because it feels right emotionally - industrialisation must be wicked and unnatural. Trees good, factories bad.

    Everyone thinks that their own beliefs are rational and that other people's beliefs are irrational.

    Replies: @iffen, @Realist

    Most people are irrational. Most people believe whatever it is that they believe based on emotion.

    Not me! Just the facts for me, sir.

    Everyone thinks that their own beliefs are rational and that other people’s beliefs are irrational.

    I do wonder how you, JV and Mr. R. can be so “right” on most issues, but completely looney on others.

  48. @MikeatMikedotMike
    OT - Curious to know how so called peaceful separation solves this:

    https://www.unz.com/sbpdl/more-than-1000-riot-in-new-york-city-demanding-black-and-brown-never-pay-for-fare-on-public-transportation-again/

    Replies: @iffen, @Audacious Epigone

    OT – Curious to know how so called peaceful separation solves this:

    White areas will not have public transportation. What are you some sort of fake WN?

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    @iffen

    Very clever cucky, here's a pat on the head. Now go play while the grown ups talk.

  49. @Mr. Rational
    @Nodwink

    Known and put out to the public in 1958.  It wasn't the least bit controversial... until it looked like we were going to DO something about it.  THEN the tobacco anti-scientists were hired to produce climate anti-science and the game was on.  That dates from about the founding of the IPCC in 1988.

    Replies: @iffen

    Mr. R, have you read very much on permafrost melting? The little that I have read makes me believe that it could be very bad for us at some point, bad in a bad way.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @iffen

    I've read enough.  They call it "the clathrate gun" for a reason, and we do NOT want to pull that trigger.

    Incidentally, there are holes appearing in far north permafrost in Russia.  Apparently, methane is coming out of the ice-form and building enough pressure to blow out the soil above (rather noisily, people miles away were complaining).  This is a trend we definitely do not want to see continue.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

  50. @iffen
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    OT – Curious to know how so called peaceful separation solves this:

    White areas will not have public transportation. What are you some sort of fake WN?

    Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike

    Very clever cucky, here’s a pat on the head. Now go play while the grown ups talk.

  51. As early as the 1920’s, the general public referred to cigarettes as “cancer sticks” and “coffin nails.” As late as the 1950’s, physicians recommended taking-up smoking, as a “relaxing finger habit.” Sometimes non-scientists are more scientific than scientists.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    @SafeNow

    The term cancer stick does not appear on the ngram until after 1950:



    The term coffin nail is more difficult to "nail down" as the term is a double entendre. The term spikes after 1900 on the ngram, but goes up and down thereafter.


    Replies: @Hail, @SafeNow

  52. @dfordoom
    @Realist


    Yes, the left tends to be anti-science or pseudo-science. One example AGW.
     
    Most people are irrational. Most people believe whatever it is that they believe based on emotion.

    Almost everyone only f*cking loves science! when it's consistent with their prejudices and their emotions.

    People who adhere to certain political ideologies believe certain irrational things, and people who adhere to other political ideologies believe different irrational things. Right-wingers who believe avidly in HBD do so because it's consistent with their dislike of particular races. Those who believe in global warming do so because it feels right emotionally - industrialisation must be wicked and unnatural. Trees good, factories bad.

    Everyone thinks that their own beliefs are rational and that other people's beliefs are irrational.

    Replies: @iffen, @Realist

    Right-wingers who believe avidly in HBD do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races.

    No, HBD exists.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Realist



    Right-wingers who believe avidly in HBD do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races.
     
    No, HBD exists.
     
    Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. People don't care if something is true or not as long as it fits in with their pre-conceived notions.

    Replies: @Realist, @MikeatMikedotMike, @Audacious Epigone, @Herbert West

  53. @Nodwink
    @Realist

    There's just no way that we can extract so many fossil fuels, burn them, and expect there to be only trivial effects on the climate. It's a denial of reality.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @Justvisiting, @Realist

    It’s a denial of reality.

    Wow you must be a scientist…way to follow the scientific method.

  54. @Realist
    @dfordoom


    Right-wingers who believe avidly in HBD do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races.
     
    No, HBD exists.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Right-wingers who believe avidly in HBD do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races.

    No, HBD exists.

    Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. People don’t care if something is true or not as long as it fits in with their pre-conceived notions.

    • Replies: @Realist
    @dfordoom


    Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races.
     
    That is your supposition...citation.


    People don’t care if something is true or not as long as it fits in with their pre-conceived notions.
     
    I do.
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    @dfordoom

    "Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. People don’t care if something is true or not as long as it fits in with their pre-conceived notions."

    This is a false premise based on your own pre-conceived notions. Looks like you're projecting. You really are a perfect example of the educational system's success in indoctrinating young people.

    Replies: @iffen

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    What I think motivates me: I have an especially strong aversion to people being blamed for things they should not be blamed for. When biology is ruled out, other explanations are invariably given too much weight--often times they are weighted would they should not be weighted at all. This misattribution is immoral and it feeds destructive anger and resentment.

    Those who accept the reality of human biological differences do not maintain that biology is everything. We tend to be moderates. We just think it means something.

    It's the extremists who think biology does not mean anything at all--and they dictate the zeitgeist to a large extent. Most people understand biology matters--whether they're watching sports, choosing a mate, or making a career choice. There is a bit of latitude to talk about it unsystematically on an individual level in polite society, but no tolerance for using it as a meta tool for making sense of the way the world is.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Herbert West
    @dfordoom

    “Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. ”

    This is in no way a “fact”.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  55. @Justvisiting
    @Nodwink

    We have no clue what the effects are--"scientists" who claim otherwise are pathological liars.

    It seems that everyone has an agenda on this stuff--it is impossible to have a rational discussion at this point.

    One thing we know for sure--the wealthy and the powerful have absolutely no intention of modifying their lifestyle--however, they want the deplorables to do so.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    One thing we know for sure–the wealthy and the powerful have absolutely no intention of modifying their lifestyle–however, they want the deplorables to do so.

    Then our mission is to fix the problem without demanding lifestyle changes anyone doesn’t like, isn’t it?  Like making our cars go, but without petroleum.  Tesla has one answer to that; there are others.

    We used to be a smart, capable country.  We are the only one to put men on the moon (thus far).  What have we become?

    • Replies: @anon
    @Mr. Rational

    Like making our cars go, but without petroleum. Tesla has one answer to that; there are others.

    Burn coal to make steam to turn turbines to generate electricity to send through wires to charge car batteries.

    Genius! Especially since burning coal has zero effects on the atmosphere, rivers or oceans!

    Here's a free clue: if the elites believed this boob-bait, they would act differently. Drake would give up his private Boeing airliner.

    Replies: @SFG

  56. @iffen
    @Mr. Rational

    Mr. R, have you read very much on permafrost melting? The little that I have read makes me believe that it could be very bad for us at some point, bad in a bad way.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    I’ve read enough.  They call it “the clathrate gun” for a reason, and we do NOT want to pull that trigger.

    Incidentally, there are holes appearing in far north permafrost in Russia.  Apparently, methane is coming out of the ice-form and building enough pressure to blow out the soil above (rather noisily, people miles away were complaining).  This is a trend we definitely do not want to see continue.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    @Mr. Rational

    It's rather interesting that the Earth has a largely invisible polar ice cap of methane hydrate that contains more hydrocarbon than the rest of the world's known oil and gas combined. wonder sometimes about the stratospheric water haze that would result from a mass release of methane. From space, the planet might look something like the Jovian cloud tops, with visible jet streams of white ice crystals and reddish-brown streaks of nitrogen oxides. On the ground, photosynthesis would continue but sunlight would be attenuated, and there would be all kinds of ghostly noctilucent clouds.

    I'm guessing that the methane surge would abate quickly in the highly oxidative atmosphere, but the acid rain might cause significant problems.

    Replies: @iffen, @Mr. Rational

  57. @dfordoom
    @Realist



    Right-wingers who believe avidly in HBD do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races.
     
    No, HBD exists.
     
    Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. People don't care if something is true or not as long as it fits in with their pre-conceived notions.

    Replies: @Realist, @MikeatMikedotMike, @Audacious Epigone, @Herbert West

    Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races.

    That is your supposition…citation.

    People don’t care if something is true or not as long as it fits in with their pre-conceived notions.

    I do.

  58. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Truth

    Polaris, the "North Star" is just within 1 degree of arc from the point of intersection of the Earth's axis with the star field. I will agree that having a magnitude-2 star right there is pretty lucky (or divine providence), as it was sure helpful for navigation back in the day. I can't remember if it's been 4,000 years that it's been near a good position like this, but obviously it doesn't stay there in the long term due to:

    a) The precession of the Earth's axis
    b) The actual movements of Polars and Earth

    The cool thing is that, even if one is not an avid stargazer, one can find Polaris easily by extending the line segment that goes between the 2 stars at the outer edge of the bucket of the big dipper upwards (with reference to this "bucket") approximately 5 times. That'll get you there. Remember that this star is to the TRUE north*, not magnetic, so depending on where you live, it won't match a compass reading of north.

    .

    * within ~ 1 degree, that is, depending on the time of night. It'll vary from right on, (2 times per day, when it's on the top or bottom) in azimuth (which is what we usually want), but off in altitude of course, to that just under 1 degree off in azimuth but right on in altitude.

    Replies: @SafeNow

    You mention parenthetically that divine providence might have given us Polaris. Here’s a fun fact. Polaris is twice as bright as it was a few thousand years ago. It has brightened 100 times faster than the laws of stellar evolution would allow. Starting to sound like the parentheses should be removed?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @SafeNow

    Perhaps so. I just read about this, as I had no idea before how quickly Polaris had changed in brightness. I saw that wiki bit, but did not see the Science magazine article. I read a few others with 2nd-hand info. just now. The only question is how good some of that historical observational data is. One can compare one star to another, and another, in series, and get pretty good data.

    That's pretty amazing.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

  59. “There’s just no way that we can extract so many fossil fuels, burn them, and expect there to be only trivial effects on the climate. It’s a denial of reality.”

    I think you are playing fast and loose with impacts here.

    I would be interested to know what you mean by trivial. And when you say effects that’s a very broad spectrum of possible impacts. But to know what thiase impacts are you would have measure how much of the natrural or innate material has impacted the earth since it was created measured against that which is manmade and then you have to know the disticnt impacts of the natural top those claimed to be manmade.

  60. @dfordoom
    @Realist



    Right-wingers who believe avidly in HBD do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races.
     
    No, HBD exists.
     
    Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. People don't care if something is true or not as long as it fits in with their pre-conceived notions.

    Replies: @Realist, @MikeatMikedotMike, @Audacious Epigone, @Herbert West

    “Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. People don’t care if something is true or not as long as it fits in with their pre-conceived notions.”

    This is a false premise based on your own pre-conceived notions. Looks like you’re projecting. You really are a perfect example of the educational system’s success in indoctrinating young people.

    • Agree: Herbert West
    • Replies: @iffen
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    Mikey, you are not up to the challenge.

    Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike

  61. @Mr. Rational
    @iffen

    I've read enough.  They call it "the clathrate gun" for a reason, and we do NOT want to pull that trigger.

    Incidentally, there are holes appearing in far north permafrost in Russia.  Apparently, methane is coming out of the ice-form and building enough pressure to blow out the soil above (rather noisily, people miles away were complaining).  This is a trend we definitely do not want to see continue.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    It’s rather interesting that the Earth has a largely invisible polar ice cap of methane hydrate that contains more hydrocarbon than the rest of the world’s known oil and gas combined. wonder sometimes about the stratospheric water haze that would result from a mass release of methane. From space, the planet might look something like the Jovian cloud tops, with visible jet streams of white ice crystals and reddish-brown streaks of nitrogen oxides. On the ground, photosynthesis would continue but sunlight would be attenuated, and there would be all kinds of ghostly noctilucent clouds.

    I’m guessing that the methane surge would abate quickly in the highly oxidative atmosphere, but the acid rain might cause significant problems.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Intelligent Dasein

    I’m guessing that the methane surge

    I thought that this was the biggie. Compounded greenhouse and sea level rise levels meaured in feet rather than inches.

    , @Mr. Rational
    @Intelligent Dasein


    I’m guessing that the methane surge would abate quickly in the highly oxidative atmosphere
     
    I wouldn't bet on it.  It's highly stable* and large releases could overwhelm the production of free radicals which oxidize it.  Since free radicals are also involved in the removal of other contaminants, the levels of those could rise considerably.  The outcome I see most likely is that a lot more methane would diffuse up into the stratosphere to be broken down by UV.  It might also deplete ozone by reaction with it.

    Let's not find out, shall we?

    * Methane is stable enough that it does not contribute to formation of photochemical smog; the category of criteria pollutants is literally abbreviated "NMOG", non-methane organic gases.
  62. @Talha
    Off topic, but...
    Pffffshwahahaha!
    http://twitter.com/NabeelAzeezDXB/status/1190819042690523136

    Peace.

    Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker, @Truth

    Hey Talha, right back at ya… and back to the topic at the same time.

  63. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Truth

    Hey, you know I like Seinfeld and that was no exception.

    Thing thing is, Truth, in my explanations to you, that stuff you read as "yada yada", well it's more properly called PHYSICS. You can write "yada yada" in your problem solutions in Physics 201 homework, but that will only cut it in the Historically Black Colleges. ;-}

    Replies: @Truth, @Truth

    So physics explains to you that when you are in Antartica, your head is literally below your feet as you are standing… that the earth is moving at 66,600 per hour (literally), yet somehow we have these things called “satellites” that can keep up with it, even though the fastest planes only move at 2,100…That hot jet fuel, which burns at 1,500 degrees can melt steel which melts at 2,000…that “gravity” will cause water you spill from a cup to go to the floor, but will not cause the water on on our spinning ball-home to all fall off… And I can go on… and on… and on.

    Unfortunately son, your education was a fraud. Sure they gave you enough so that you could build a bridge, but all of your conceptual education was a complete mirage.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Truth

    What does "below" mean, with respect to the center of the earth. Before you can argue this stuff, Truth, you have to have some kind of science AND math background to even use the right terms.

    On the satellites. we are all moving at the speed of the earth (+ or - some, based on latitude and the rotation). The rocket on the launch pad (just like that SR-71 or Piper
    Cub on the ground) is moving at roughly that 66,000 mph (if that's what it is) too - can't you conceptualize this? It's relative speed that matters, as far as keeping the satellite in orbit.

    I already explained your water question in the other comment. Just like Neil Young's tall trees, that water won't spill anywhere because there is no acceleration in the tangential direction. The Earth's rotation may be slowing, but again, that's on a larger-that-human-civilization time scale and completely insignificant. Without a change in rotational speed, there is no tangential acceleration.

    C'mon, you and Neil - get yourself enrolled... hopefully up North somewhere... a Southern Man don't need him around, anyhow.

    Replies: @Truth

  64. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Truth


    How have sailors been navigating by the same sytem of stars for 4,000 years...
     
    Well for one thing, they haven't. I imagine back in Mesopotamian times or what-have-you, those guys stuck pretty damn close to shore, and when they didn't, they may have used just Ded Reckoning and gotten lost a might bewildered quite often.

    Either way, Polaris is one thing, but the movement of the stars in real motion is too slow to have had an effect on human history, while the precession effect might. However, all one needs is to compare night to night, how high certain stars get above the horizon at their peaks, for latitude. The problem of finding longitude was another can of worms, not really nailed down until 500 years ago or so. The problem, Truth, was in knowing an accurate time after a long voyage. Clocks were not up to it for a long time.

    Peak Stupidity has 2 science posts, SCIENCE, Truth, that describe the clever use of Jupiter's moons (in both lunar eclipses and transits, which are basically solar eclipses on Jupiter with shadows only covering a minuscule portion of the disk) to nail down observation times. That time would give longitude:

    a) Either, after the voyage, back in England, when the science logs could be compared to astronomical tables made by the Royal Society.

    or

    b) If the science officer carried these "ephemeris" tables along, then latitude could be determined right then and there, and map-making could be done in real time. Of course, you needed some clear night skies.

    Read and learn about this cool science in "Eclipses and the Galilean Moons of Jupiter in the Age of Exploration: Part 1 and Part 2.

    Replies: @Truth

    How Did Ancient Sailors Navigate The Globe?
    In the wake of the 16th century, the ancient art of navigation set its course aggressively in response to sea explorers who were determined out there to find landmarks, locations of their adventurous discoveries as well as establish routes linking their new land discoveries and their home. In essence, the beginning of the two decades of the 16th century, ancient sailors saw the aggressive application of astronomy and mathematics to navigate. About four thousand years ago, the Phoenicians became the first ancient sailors to have developed the art of navigation at sea.

    https://essaymojo.com/essay/how-did-ancient-sailors-navigate-the-globe-essay/

    Either way, Polaris is one thing, but the movement of the stars in real motion is too slow to have had an effect on human history, while the precession effect might. However, all one needs is to compare night to night, how high certain stars get above the horizon at their peaks, for latitude.

    Again, the so-called; “solar system” has been united in a path of irrational movement, with no rhyme or reason that scientists know of, since the beginning of time; so how is it that the same stars visible 4,000 years ago, are still visible today?

  65. @Intelligent Dasein
    @Mr. Rational

    It's rather interesting that the Earth has a largely invisible polar ice cap of methane hydrate that contains more hydrocarbon than the rest of the world's known oil and gas combined. wonder sometimes about the stratospheric water haze that would result from a mass release of methane. From space, the planet might look something like the Jovian cloud tops, with visible jet streams of white ice crystals and reddish-brown streaks of nitrogen oxides. On the ground, photosynthesis would continue but sunlight would be attenuated, and there would be all kinds of ghostly noctilucent clouds.

    I'm guessing that the methane surge would abate quickly in the highly oxidative atmosphere, but the acid rain might cause significant problems.

    Replies: @iffen, @Mr. Rational

    I’m guessing that the methane surge

    I thought that this was the biggie. Compounded greenhouse and sea level rise levels meaured in feet rather than inches.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  66. @MikeatMikedotMike
    @dfordoom

    "Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. People don’t care if something is true or not as long as it fits in with their pre-conceived notions."

    This is a false premise based on your own pre-conceived notions. Looks like you're projecting. You really are a perfect example of the educational system's success in indoctrinating young people.

    Replies: @iffen

    Mikey, you are not up to the challenge.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    @iffen

    Well, I fed the little lost puppy once and now he's following me around again. My mistake.

  67. @Truth
    @Achmed E. Newman

    How have sailors been navigating by the same sytem of stars for 4,000 years (I know a Royal Navy ship captain who navigated his crew to North Carolina strictly by way of the stars a few years ago, just for kicks on his Naval Reserve assignment)...

    https://www.space.com/5849-navigating-stars.html

    ...When the Solar System is doing this (notice that this person termed his video "The helical model" sort of like "the theory of evolution")?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvgaxQGPg7I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9exwLEbIs4

    Now, I present for you a short translation/encapsulation of your entire science education...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6kRqnfsBEc

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @SafeNow

    My personal counterpart to yada yada yada is the successful yuff yuff yuff. In Third-World countries officious people would sometimes offer to lend help or otherwise butt-in where that was not wanted; quite persistently. my refusals, from polite to stern, were unavailing. Then I tried saying Yuff Yuff Yuff!! and it worked. They must have thought I am insane or formidable or both.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @SafeNow

    Well now, they did have that whooping cough epidemic going around then...

  68. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Truth

    It was mostly the same guys into Astronomy, like Isaac Newton, that discovered the physical laws that explain what you can't seem to, Truth. Newton's 2nd law will reveal that no forces will need to be exerted on a body (i.e. you "don't feel anything") if there is no acceleration.

    Just looking at the Earth's own rotation, there IS an acceleration. Everyone and everything is accelerating TOWARDS the center of the Earth, though the rotation rate is constant (least on a human time scale). Yes, velocity is a vector, and a change in DIRECTION, not just MAGNITUDE, is an acceleration. It's easy to calculate how much a (in the radial direction) = rω^2. It turns out that the force needed to produce that acceleration is not insignificant but still much lower than the gravitational force from Earth's mass.

    It's not known by many, unless one can do freshman physics, that one would feel slightly lighter at the poles of Earth than at the equator, with obviously a continuum of the function in between. I'll leave the trivial math for the other commenters, as I'm lying down here, but I think the difference was in the range of a percent.

    Speaking of laying down, I can forgive Neil Young for not understanding the physics either, as he was one hell of a musician.

    "Oh, oh, this old world keeps spinning round.
    It's a wonder tall trees ain't layin' down.
    There comes s time ..."


    Great backing vocals too on this album, by Nicolette Larson, a 1970s artist in her own right.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxH_4e7W7hc

    Truth, maybe you and Neil could take a continuing ed class in physics together. Wouldn't that be cool?!

    Replies: @Twodees Partain

    I remember Nicolette. She has a lovely voice. I never could stand Neil Young, though.

    “I hope Neil Young will remember,
    A Southern Man don’t need him around, anyhow” – Sweet Home Alabama, Lynyrd Skynyrd

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Twodees Partain

    Don't get me wrong, T.P., Neil Young made an ass of himself with the lyrics of both Southern Man and (more so with) Alabama Song. The thing is, his electric solos are good enough for me to forgive lyrics that I don't necessarily listen to in lots of songs anyway. That's the case for the former song. Lyrics don't make the song, ever. Now, on the latter song, an acoustic one as I recall, the tune isn't even that good.

    I think the Skynryd guys didn't really hold a big grudge about this for long.

    Listen to this unintentionally prescient song by Neil Young. It really rocks too, and with that fiddle and backing vocals (NOT Miss Larson, I don't believe, on this one.). Almost NOBODY has this album, called Hawks and Doves.

    "Oh this country sure looks good to me,
    but these fences are comin' apart at every nail.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ6MOcfbv4s

    Replies: @Twodees Partain

  69. @iffen
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    Mikey, you are not up to the challenge.

    Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike

    Well, I fed the little lost puppy once and now he’s following me around again. My mistake.

    • LOL: iffen
  70. @SafeNow
    @Achmed E. Newman

    You mention parenthetically that divine providence might have given us Polaris. Here’s a fun fact. Polaris is twice as bright as it was a few thousand years ago. It has brightened 100 times faster than the laws of stellar evolution would allow. Starting to sound like the parentheses should be removed?

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Perhaps so. I just read about this, as I had no idea before how quickly Polaris had changed in brightness. I saw that wiki bit, but did not see the Science magazine article. I read a few others with 2nd-hand info. just now. The only question is how good some of that historical observational data is. One can compare one star to another, and another, in series, and get pretty good data.

    That’s pretty amazing.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Well, as a Cepheid variable Polaris is in a transitional stage in the life of a large star.  I'm sure a few years from now someone will publish a paper with a model which explains this.

    IIUC there are two types of Cepheids, hydrogen and helium.  They have substantially different luminosities for the same period.

  71. anon[419] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Rational
    @Justvisiting


    One thing we know for sure–the wealthy and the powerful have absolutely no intention of modifying their lifestyle–however, they want the deplorables to do so.
     
    Then our mission is to fix the problem without demanding lifestyle changes anyone doesn't like, isn't it?  Like making our cars go, but without petroleum.  Tesla has one answer to that; there are others.

    We used to be a smart, capable country.  We are the only one to put men on the moon (thus far).  What have we become?

    Replies: @anon

    Like making our cars go, but without petroleum. Tesla has one answer to that; there are others.

    Burn coal to make steam to turn turbines to generate electricity to send through wires to charge car batteries.

    Genius! Especially since burning coal has zero effects on the atmosphere, rivers or oceans!

    Here’s a free clue: if the elites believed this boob-bait, they would act differently. Drake would give up his private Boeing airliner.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @anon

    Or maybe they believe it and don't give a f*** about the rest of us?

    They're already maneuvering to extract oil from the melting Arctic.

  72. @Truth
    @Achmed E. Newman

    So physics explains to you that when you are in Antartica, your head is literally below your feet as you are standing... that the earth is moving at 66,600 per hour (literally), yet somehow we have these things called "satellites" that can keep up with it, even though the fastest planes only move at 2,100...That hot jet fuel, which burns at 1,500 degrees can melt steel which melts at 2,000...that "gravity" will cause water you spill from a cup to go to the floor, but will not cause the water on on our spinning ball-home to all fall off... And I can go on... and on... and on.

    Unfortunately son, your education was a fraud. Sure they gave you enough so that you could build a bridge, but all of your conceptual education was a complete mirage.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    What does “below” mean, with respect to the center of the earth. Before you can argue this stuff, Truth, you have to have some kind of science AND math background to even use the right terms.

    On the satellites. we are all moving at the speed of the earth (+ or – some, based on latitude and the rotation). The rocket on the launch pad (just like that SR-71 or Piper
    Cub on the ground) is moving at roughly that 66,000 mph (if that’s what it is) too – can’t you conceptualize this? It’s relative speed that matters, as far as keeping the satellite in orbit.

    I already explained your water question in the other comment. Just like Neil Young’s tall trees, that water won’t spill anywhere because there is no acceleration in the tangential direction. The Earth’s rotation may be slowing, but again, that’s on a larger-that-human-civilization time scale and completely insignificant. Without a change in rotational speed, there is no tangential acceleration.

    C’mon, you and Neil – get yourself enrolled… hopefully up North somewhere… a Southern Man don’t need him around, anyhow.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Achmed E. Newman

    If an ant is standing on the bottom of a basketball, it's head is "below" it's feet, correct? Or does my limited science background have me mistaken here?

    So gravity is powerful enough to keep a satellite moving at 66,600 miles per hour, but now powerful enough to pull it back to earth? And this makes sense to you?

    Replies: @Technite78, @Daniel Chieh

  73. @Twodees Partain
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I remember Nicolette. She has a lovely voice. I never could stand Neil Young, though.

    "I hope Neil Young will remember,
    A Southern Man don't need him around, anyhow" - Sweet Home Alabama, Lynyrd Skynyrd

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPw_HJduwu0

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Don’t get me wrong, T.P., Neil Young made an ass of himself with the lyrics of both Southern Man and (more so with) Alabama Song. The thing is, his electric solos are good enough for me to forgive lyrics that I don’t necessarily listen to in lots of songs anyway. That’s the case for the former song. Lyrics don’t make the song, ever. Now, on the latter song, an acoustic one as I recall, the tune isn’t even that good.

    I think the Skynryd guys didn’t really hold a big grudge about this for long.

    Listen to this unintentionally prescient song by Neil Young. It really rocks too, and with that fiddle and backing vocals (NOT Miss Larson, I don’t believe, on this one.). Almost NOBODY has this album, called Hawks and Doves.

    “Oh this country sure looks good to me,
    but these fences are comin’ apart at every nail.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I really liked Nicolette's "French Waltz". The title of that album escapes me. I bought it in about '78 or thereabouts. It also had "The Angels Rejoiced" and some other selections that made the radio playlists, back in the days when all radio stations weren't pushing the same old non-music.

    Nothing more from me on Young, under the principle of "if you can't say something nice", etc.

  74. @Intelligent Dasein
    @Mr. Rational

    It's rather interesting that the Earth has a largely invisible polar ice cap of methane hydrate that contains more hydrocarbon than the rest of the world's known oil and gas combined. wonder sometimes about the stratospheric water haze that would result from a mass release of methane. From space, the planet might look something like the Jovian cloud tops, with visible jet streams of white ice crystals and reddish-brown streaks of nitrogen oxides. On the ground, photosynthesis would continue but sunlight would be attenuated, and there would be all kinds of ghostly noctilucent clouds.

    I'm guessing that the methane surge would abate quickly in the highly oxidative atmosphere, but the acid rain might cause significant problems.

    Replies: @iffen, @Mr. Rational

    I’m guessing that the methane surge would abate quickly in the highly oxidative atmosphere

    I wouldn’t bet on it.  It’s highly stable* and large releases could overwhelm the production of free radicals which oxidize it.  Since free radicals are also involved in the removal of other contaminants, the levels of those could rise considerably.  The outcome I see most likely is that a lot more methane would diffuse up into the stratosphere to be broken down by UV.  It might also deplete ozone by reaction with it.

    Let’s not find out, shall we?

    * Methane is stable enough that it does not contribute to formation of photochemical smog; the category of criteria pollutants is literally abbreviated “NMOG”, non-methane organic gases.

  75. @Achmed E. Newman
    @SafeNow

    Perhaps so. I just read about this, as I had no idea before how quickly Polaris had changed in brightness. I saw that wiki bit, but did not see the Science magazine article. I read a few others with 2nd-hand info. just now. The only question is how good some of that historical observational data is. One can compare one star to another, and another, in series, and get pretty good data.

    That's pretty amazing.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    Well, as a Cepheid variable Polaris is in a transitional stage in the life of a large star.  I’m sure a few years from now someone will publish a paper with a model which explains this.

    IIUC there are two types of Cepheids, hydrogen and helium.  They have substantially different luminosities for the same period.

  76. @anon
    @Intelligent Dasein

    “Believers” in astrology can number among their ranks Aristotle, Dante Alighieri, and Sir Isaac Newton, all of whom were once thought to be not quite dimwitted.

    "Intelligent" and "infallible" are not synonyms, but "appeal to authority" is still a fallacy.

    Replies: @Anon

    “Intelligent” and “infallible” are not synonyms, but “appeal to authority” is still a fallacy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy

  77. @anon


    A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an “intellectual”—find out how he feels about astrology.
    Robert A. Heinlein, 1970 or so
     

    Replies: @anonymous

    This poll has nothing to do with it, and what Heinlein thought about it has nothing to do with it also.

  78. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Truth

    Hey, you know I like Seinfeld and that was no exception.

    Thing thing is, Truth, in my explanations to you, that stuff you read as "yada yada", well it's more properly called PHYSICS. You can write "yada yada" in your problem solutions in Physics 201 homework, but that will only cut it in the Historically Black Colleges. ;-}

    Replies: @Truth, @Truth

    …You see Old Sport, when you proudly received your “science” degree, your slavemasters gave you one of these to put on your head:

    That’s called a “mortar board.” The symbology is that the last four years has prepared you to be a lowly, and not too bright, physical laborer, for the actual builders. You carry and scrape, they build. Don’t worry about what they are building, just learn enough to make mortar so the bricks stay together. I belive you can handle that.

    Oh, and moving the tassle from right to left? That is meant to mimic the path of the sun; not the path of the earth, no, that is not what I wrote. I wrote, the path of the sun.

    Notice that celebrities rarely wear mortar boards when they collect honorary degrees.

    But hey, keep up those alumni donations…

  79. @SafeNow
    @Truth

    My personal counterpart to yada yada yada is the successful yuff yuff yuff. In Third-World countries officious people would sometimes offer to lend help or otherwise butt-in where that was not wanted; quite persistently. my refusals, from polite to stern, were unavailing. Then I tried saying Yuff Yuff Yuff!! and it worked. They must have thought I am insane or formidable or both.

    Replies: @Truth

    Well now, they did have that whooping cough epidemic going around then…

  80. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Truth

    What does "below" mean, with respect to the center of the earth. Before you can argue this stuff, Truth, you have to have some kind of science AND math background to even use the right terms.

    On the satellites. we are all moving at the speed of the earth (+ or - some, based on latitude and the rotation). The rocket on the launch pad (just like that SR-71 or Piper
    Cub on the ground) is moving at roughly that 66,000 mph (if that's what it is) too - can't you conceptualize this? It's relative speed that matters, as far as keeping the satellite in orbit.

    I already explained your water question in the other comment. Just like Neil Young's tall trees, that water won't spill anywhere because there is no acceleration in the tangential direction. The Earth's rotation may be slowing, but again, that's on a larger-that-human-civilization time scale and completely insignificant. Without a change in rotational speed, there is no tangential acceleration.

    C'mon, you and Neil - get yourself enrolled... hopefully up North somewhere... a Southern Man don't need him around, anyhow.

    Replies: @Truth

    If an ant is standing on the bottom of a basketball, it’s head is “below” it’s feet, correct? Or does my limited science background have me mistaken here?

    So gravity is powerful enough to keep a satellite moving at 66,600 miles per hour, but now powerful enough to pull it back to earth? And this makes sense to you?

    • Replies: @Technite78
    @Truth

    Gravity does not keep a satellite moving; the momentum imparted by its booster rocket does that. Also, the centrifugal force created by that momentum (as defined by the satellite's velocity and the radius of its orbit) offset the force of gravity that attempts to pull it back to earth... keeping the satellite in a stable orbit above the earth (not forever, due to small frictional losses).

    I'll post all the equations if you'd like... they're essentially taught in physics101.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @Truth

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Truth

    Maybe there's a high school course in physics that you should have taken.

  81. @Truth
    @Daniel Williams

    Astrology is much more legitimate than astronomy.

    If you believe we are living on a spinning ball hurdling through space, yet somehow you don't feel any movement, and the North Star has been in the same place for 4,000 years, you are an imbecile.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @anon, @Cloudbuster, @Technite78

    My days of not taking you seriously are nowhere near over.

    • LOL: Twodees Partain
    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @Cloudbuster

    You haven't put that clown on ignore yet?  You have too much free time.

    Replies: @PhilK

  82. My Filipino neighbour not only believes in Astrology but also Feng Shui and the infallibility of the Pope

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @jim jones

    Astrology is harmless, Feng Shui is good for the real estate market, but does your neighbor even know a thing about that Commie POS they've got up there in the Vatican now? No, I wouldn't use the word "infallible" - "omnipitarded", perhaps?

  83. @Intelligent Dasein
    "Believers" in astrology can number among their ranks Aristotle, Dante Alighieri, and Sir Isaac Newton, all of whom were once thought to be not quite dimwitted. The canard that only the superstitious and uneducated take to astrology is one of the least supported shibboleths of the HBD types, second only to their insistent Darwinism.

    Replies: @AP, @Achmed E. Newman, @anon, @nokangaroos, @SFG, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    The last of whom died in 1727?

    • Replies: @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    @SFG

    While I'm loathe to defend new age garbage like astrology, the idea oft-trotted out by midwit materialists that spiritual beliefs are predicated on scientific ignorance is a bigger load of hokum than fortune telling by far.

    What do you imagine we've learned since 1727 that would disabuse Newton et al of this silly belief? That the earth goes around the sun or that it in fact isn't pulled across the sky by apollo's chariot? Yeah, we knew that in 1727. Maybe the concept of black holes, now there is a disproof of astrology if there ever was one! The bottom line is that the rationale you use to dismiss cosmology was already totally available in the 18th century, the principle difference between now and then is that being incredulous towards astrology is more in fashion today. This goes doubly for snide atheistic arguments, the essence of which haven't changed substantially since at least the ancient greeks.

  84. @Cloudbuster
    @Franz

    Being both brilliant and an expert in one field doesn't keep you from being spectacularly wrong in another field. It is a truism that there is are certain sorts of idiocy that only the highly educated can achieve.

    Replies: @iffen, @Nodwink, @Franz, @Daniel Chieh

    Well hell.

    Newton would not have been Newton had he not been curious about EVERYTHING.

    Even the Great Thomas Edison wanted to build a system to talk to the dead… he felt even if they were not alive, they’d be somewhere on the electromagnetic spectrum so they’d still be available to talk to.

    Newton and Edison were men of their times. Their times were strange to us maybe. But they were alive to possibilities. Not a bad thing, I think.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  85. @anon
    @Mr. Rational

    Like making our cars go, but without petroleum. Tesla has one answer to that; there are others.

    Burn coal to make steam to turn turbines to generate electricity to send through wires to charge car batteries.

    Genius! Especially since burning coal has zero effects on the atmosphere, rivers or oceans!

    Here's a free clue: if the elites believed this boob-bait, they would act differently. Drake would give up his private Boeing airliner.

    Replies: @SFG

    Or maybe they believe it and don’t give a f*** about the rest of us?

    They’re already maneuvering to extract oil from the melting Arctic.

  86. @Cloudbuster
    @Truth

    My days of not taking you seriously are nowhere near over.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    You haven’t put that clown on ignore yet?  You have too much free time.

    • Replies: @PhilK
    @Mr. Rational

    Absolutely right. Arguing with a flat-earther is like arguing with a libertarian or a jesuit or a scientologist.

  87. @Franz
    Sir Isaac Newton was an astrology buff.

    True, he wouldn't have gone for either Hillary or Trump and would have considered all current electioneering, even in his homeland, beneath contempt.

    But Newton "studied the matter" as he said, and determined astrology was probably partly true.

    Replies: @Cloudbuster, @PetrOldSack, @SFG

    He lived hundreds of years ago. Scientific method was in its infancy and there was a lot less evidence against any of the things we call ‘kooky’ now. Plenty of quite brilliant scientists though the sun revolved around the earth–after all, we see it go around and we’re not moving, right? It was only after extensive observation and calculation they were able to prove otherwise.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @SFG


    Scientific method was in its infancy
     
    ?
  88. @SFG
    @Realist

    This is going to turn into a debate on AGW, but I think the evidence for that's pretty good--every year is the hottest year on record? Come on, something's up.

    Left-wing science denialism: gender ideology, anti-race realism.
    Right-wing science denialism: climate change, evolution.

    It boils down to 'people ignore aspects of reality that are inconvenient', which is just human behavior.

    One of the big problems is that universities are so left-wing, scientists won't speak out.

    Replies: @Realist, @neutral

    Right-wing science denialism: climate change, evolution.

    It is the left that is denying evolution, they believe that humans are all created equal 100 000 years or so ago and that all evolution afterwards completely stopped.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  89. @SFG
    @Franz

    He lived hundreds of years ago. Scientific method was in its infancy and there was a lot less evidence against any of the things we call 'kooky' now. Plenty of quite brilliant scientists though the sun revolved around the earth--after all, we see it go around and we're not moving, right? It was only after extensive observation and calculation they were able to prove otherwise.

    Replies: @Anon

    Scientific method was in its infancy

    ?

  90. @SafeNow
    As early as the 1920’s, the general public referred to cigarettes as “cancer sticks” and “coffin nails.” As late as the 1950’s, physicians recommended taking-up smoking, as a “relaxing finger habit.” Sometimes non-scientists are more scientific than scientists.

    Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike

    The term cancer stick does not appear on the ngram until after 1950:

    The term coffin nail is more difficult to “nail down” as the term is a double entendre. The term spikes after 1900 on the ngram, but goes up and down thereafter.

    • Replies: @Hail
    @MikeatMikedotMike


    The term cancer stick does not appear on the ngram until after 1950
     

    coffin nail
     
    Harper Collins dictionary has:

    coffin nail - [slang] a cigarette

    Word origin of 'coffin nail':
    1885–90
     

    and:

    cancer stick - [slang] a cigarette

    Word origin of 'cancer stick':
    1965–70
     

    , @SafeNow
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    Thanks for the ngram research, but I based my assertion on a Harpers Magazine article I once read, which looked at verbal use rather than written use.

  91. @Intelligent Dasein
    "Believers" in astrology can number among their ranks Aristotle, Dante Alighieri, and Sir Isaac Newton, all of whom were once thought to be not quite dimwitted. The canard that only the superstitious and uneducated take to astrology is one of the least supported shibboleths of the HBD types, second only to their insistent Darwinism.

    Replies: @AP, @Achmed E. Newman, @anon, @nokangaroos, @SFG, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    While they probably answered it as “do you believe in astrology” the question is phrased as whether it is “scientific”, so it’s different from the other survey in that there is certainly a right and wrong answer. Whether astrology was genuine or bullshit, it is definitionally not scientific, it’s explicitly based on mysticism.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  92. @SFG
    @Intelligent Dasein

    The last of whom died in 1727?

    Replies: @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    While I’m loathe to defend new age garbage like astrology, the idea oft-trotted out by midwit materialists that spiritual beliefs are predicated on scientific ignorance is a bigger load of hokum than fortune telling by far.

    What do you imagine we’ve learned since 1727 that would disabuse Newton et al of this silly belief? That the earth goes around the sun or that it in fact isn’t pulled across the sky by apollo’s chariot? Yeah, we knew that in 1727. Maybe the concept of black holes, now there is a disproof of astrology if there ever was one! The bottom line is that the rationale you use to dismiss cosmology was already totally available in the 18th century, the principle difference between now and then is that being incredulous towards astrology is more in fashion today. This goes doubly for snide atheistic arguments, the essence of which haven’t changed substantially since at least the ancient greeks.

  93. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Twodees Partain

    Don't get me wrong, T.P., Neil Young made an ass of himself with the lyrics of both Southern Man and (more so with) Alabama Song. The thing is, his electric solos are good enough for me to forgive lyrics that I don't necessarily listen to in lots of songs anyway. That's the case for the former song. Lyrics don't make the song, ever. Now, on the latter song, an acoustic one as I recall, the tune isn't even that good.

    I think the Skynryd guys didn't really hold a big grudge about this for long.

    Listen to this unintentionally prescient song by Neil Young. It really rocks too, and with that fiddle and backing vocals (NOT Miss Larson, I don't believe, on this one.). Almost NOBODY has this album, called Hawks and Doves.

    "Oh this country sure looks good to me,
    but these fences are comin' apart at every nail.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ6MOcfbv4s

    Replies: @Twodees Partain

    I really liked Nicolette’s “French Waltz”. The title of that album escapes me. I bought it in about ’78 or thereabouts. It also had “The Angels Rejoiced” and some other selections that made the radio playlists, back in the days when all radio stations weren’t pushing the same old non-music.

    Nothing more from me on Young, under the principle of “if you can’t say something nice”, etc.

  94. @MikeatMikedotMike
    @SafeNow

    The term cancer stick does not appear on the ngram until after 1950:



    The term coffin nail is more difficult to "nail down" as the term is a double entendre. The term spikes after 1900 on the ngram, but goes up and down thereafter.


    Replies: @Hail, @SafeNow

    The term cancer stick does not appear on the ngram until after 1950

    coffin nail

    Harper Collins dictionary has:

    coffin nail – [slang] a cigarette

    Word origin of ‘coffin nail’:
    1885–90

    and:

    cancer stick – [slang] a cigarette

    Word origin of ‘cancer stick’:
    1965–70

  95. @MikeatMikedotMike
    @SafeNow

    The term cancer stick does not appear on the ngram until after 1950:



    The term coffin nail is more difficult to "nail down" as the term is a double entendre. The term spikes after 1900 on the ngram, but goes up and down thereafter.


    Replies: @Hail, @SafeNow

    Thanks for the ngram research, but I based my assertion on a Harpers Magazine article I once read, which looked at verbal use rather than written use.

  96. @Mr. Rational
    @Cloudbuster

    You haven't put that clown on ignore yet?  You have too much free time.

    Replies: @PhilK

    Absolutely right. Arguing with a flat-earther is like arguing with a libertarian or a jesuit or a scientologist.

  97. @Truth
    @Daniel Williams

    Astrology is much more legitimate than astronomy.

    If you believe we are living on a spinning ball hurdling through space, yet somehow you don't feel any movement, and the North Star has been in the same place for 4,000 years, you are an imbecile.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Achmed E. Newman, @anon, @Cloudbuster, @Technite78

    I suspect I’d enjoy hearing you explain how GPS, satellite TV, or satellite radio work.

    But I also suspect you can’t actually explain them.

  98. @Truth
    @Achmed E. Newman

    If an ant is standing on the bottom of a basketball, it's head is "below" it's feet, correct? Or does my limited science background have me mistaken here?

    So gravity is powerful enough to keep a satellite moving at 66,600 miles per hour, but now powerful enough to pull it back to earth? And this makes sense to you?

    Replies: @Technite78, @Daniel Chieh

    Gravity does not keep a satellite moving; the momentum imparted by its booster rocket does that. Also, the centrifugal force created by that momentum (as defined by the satellite’s velocity and the radius of its orbit) offset the force of gravity that attempts to pull it back to earth… keeping the satellite in a stable orbit above the earth (not forever, due to small frictional losses).

    I’ll post all the equations if you’d like… they’re essentially taught in physics101.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @Technite78

    If Twooth could understand equations, he would not be the raving moron that he is.

    One thought experiment is all it takes to disprove flat-earthism.  If the Earth is flat, how can it be daylight in New York while it's still dark in California?  There would not and could not be any such thing as "jet lag".  And that's just one of many.

    Replies: @iffen, @Truth, @Truth

    , @Truth
    @Technite78


    Gravity does not keep a satellite moving; the momentum imparted by its booster rocket does that
     
    Oh, so a "booster rocket" provides enough power for an aircraft to move 300x faster than the world's fastest jet for hundreds of years? Thas is one hell of an engine! But my car still gets 27 mpg???

    I’ll post all the equations if you’d like… they’re essentially taught in physics101.
     
    Why not? You learned in biology 101 that your great-great-great-great-x 37th grandmother was a chimpanzee..

    Replies: @anon

  99. @Technite78
    @Truth

    Gravity does not keep a satellite moving; the momentum imparted by its booster rocket does that. Also, the centrifugal force created by that momentum (as defined by the satellite's velocity and the radius of its orbit) offset the force of gravity that attempts to pull it back to earth... keeping the satellite in a stable orbit above the earth (not forever, due to small frictional losses).

    I'll post all the equations if you'd like... they're essentially taught in physics101.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @Truth

    If Twooth could understand equations, he would not be the raving moron that he is.

    One thought experiment is all it takes to disprove flat-earthism.  If the Earth is flat, how can it be daylight in New York while it’s still dark in California?  There would not and could not be any such thing as “jet lag”.  And that’s just one of many.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Mr. Rational

    If the Earth is flat, how can it be daylight in New York while it’s still dark in California?

    Because the sun, in its apparent movement from NY to California, must traverse another world --another dimension and it is blocked during that sojourn.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    , @Truth
    @Mr. Rational

    Ok let's play!

    The earth is constantly rotating, West to East, at 1100 mph. If you are flying from New York to London, in a plane moving at 600 mph. How do you get there?

    If you are flying from New York to L.A., you are landing on a surface moving roughly 3x faster than your plane!

    That is some damn good piloting.

    , @Truth
    @Mr. Rational

    The first mistake you Philistines make, is calling it "The Flat Earth." The shape of the earth is too complicated for you, so dispense with it for now. Call us "Fixed Earthers", or "Geocentric Modelers", because the earth does not move, and is the center of the so-called "Universe." please crawl before you walk.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

  100. @Cloudbuster
    @Franz

    Being both brilliant and an expert in one field doesn't keep you from being spectacularly wrong in another field. It is a truism that there is are certain sorts of idiocy that only the highly educated can achieve.

    Replies: @iffen, @Nodwink, @Franz, @Daniel Chieh

    I would say that in that era, it might even be reasonable to believe that astrology was true. The idea of a macrocosm and microcosm did have some explicatory value so taking it to its natural extent was not that far fetched.

  101. @Truth
    @Achmed E. Newman

    If an ant is standing on the bottom of a basketball, it's head is "below" it's feet, correct? Or does my limited science background have me mistaken here?

    So gravity is powerful enough to keep a satellite moving at 66,600 miles per hour, but now powerful enough to pull it back to earth? And this makes sense to you?

    Replies: @Technite78, @Daniel Chieh

    Maybe there’s a high school course in physics that you should have taken.

  102. @Mr. Rational
    @Technite78

    If Twooth could understand equations, he would not be the raving moron that he is.

    One thought experiment is all it takes to disprove flat-earthism.  If the Earth is flat, how can it be daylight in New York while it's still dark in California?  There would not and could not be any such thing as "jet lag".  And that's just one of many.

    Replies: @iffen, @Truth, @Truth

    If the Earth is flat, how can it be daylight in New York while it’s still dark in California?

    Because the sun, in its apparent movement from NY to California, must traverse another world –another dimension and it is blocked during that sojourn.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @iffen

    What about the turtles holding everything up? How do they use the bathroom?

    Replies: @iffen

  103. I don’t literally believe-in-astrology, but apparently the time of year one is born does contribute to various factors, often in ways that correspond to stereotypes associated with the so-called “signs of the Zodiac”. Or so I read in a book many years ago. I can’t actually steer anyone to a site with data that confirms the accuracy of that claim, however.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Kevin O'Keeffe

    If school grade cutoff dates were the same everywhere, I could see how that would come to be the case (ie people with one sign would be older than kids with another sign in their same grade level, and astrology horoscopes could play on the dynamics that creates). But they're not consistent across districts.

  104. @jim jones
    My Filipino neighbour not only believes in Astrology but also Feng Shui and the infallibility of the Pope

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Astrology is harmless, Feng Shui is good for the real estate market, but does your neighbor even know a thing about that Commie POS they’ve got up there in the Vatican now? No, I wouldn’t use the word “infallible” – “omnipitarded”, perhaps?

  105. @iffen
    @Mr. Rational

    If the Earth is flat, how can it be daylight in New York while it’s still dark in California?

    Because the sun, in its apparent movement from NY to California, must traverse another world --another dimension and it is blocked during that sojourn.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    What about the turtles holding everything up? How do they use the bathroom?

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Achmed E. Newman

    How do they use the bathroom?

    Just like global capitalists; it's the tinkle on down model.

  106. @Technite78
    @Truth

    Gravity does not keep a satellite moving; the momentum imparted by its booster rocket does that. Also, the centrifugal force created by that momentum (as defined by the satellite's velocity and the radius of its orbit) offset the force of gravity that attempts to pull it back to earth... keeping the satellite in a stable orbit above the earth (not forever, due to small frictional losses).

    I'll post all the equations if you'd like... they're essentially taught in physics101.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @Truth

    Gravity does not keep a satellite moving; the momentum imparted by its booster rocket does that

    Oh, so a “booster rocket” provides enough power for an aircraft to move 300x faster than the world’s fastest jet for hundreds of years? Thas is one hell of an engine! But my car still gets 27 mpg???

    I’ll post all the equations if you’d like… they’re essentially taught in physics101.

    Why not? You learned in biology 101 that your great-great-great-great-x 37th grandmother was a chimpanzee..

    • Replies: @anon
    @Truth

    https://www.zazzle.com/rlv/doofus_hat-r9524ecd5af224f21ab662a82df203a9a_v9wq9_8byvr_324.jpg

  107. @Mr. Rational
    @Technite78

    If Twooth could understand equations, he would not be the raving moron that he is.

    One thought experiment is all it takes to disprove flat-earthism.  If the Earth is flat, how can it be daylight in New York while it's still dark in California?  There would not and could not be any such thing as "jet lag".  And that's just one of many.

    Replies: @iffen, @Truth, @Truth

    Ok let’s play!

    The earth is constantly rotating, West to East, at 1100 mph. If you are flying from New York to London, in a plane moving at 600 mph. How do you get there?

    If you are flying from New York to L.A., you are landing on a surface moving roughly 3x faster than your plane!

    That is some damn good piloting.

  108. @Mr. Rational
    @Technite78

    If Twooth could understand equations, he would not be the raving moron that he is.

    One thought experiment is all it takes to disprove flat-earthism.  If the Earth is flat, how can it be daylight in New York while it's still dark in California?  There would not and could not be any such thing as "jet lag".  And that's just one of many.

    Replies: @iffen, @Truth, @Truth

    The first mistake you Philistines make, is calling it “The Flat Earth.” The shape of the earth is too complicated for you, so dispense with it for now. Call us “Fixed Earthers”, or “Geocentric Modelers”, because the earth does not move, and is the center of the so-called “Universe.” please crawl before you walk.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @Truth

    If you weren't a raving moron, you'd realize that gyrocompasses and Foucault pendulums prove that the earth rotates.

    If you weren't a raving moron.  (This is what I get for the mistake of clicking "Show comment".)

    Replies: @Truth

  109. @Truth
    @Technite78


    Gravity does not keep a satellite moving; the momentum imparted by its booster rocket does that
     
    Oh, so a "booster rocket" provides enough power for an aircraft to move 300x faster than the world's fastest jet for hundreds of years? Thas is one hell of an engine! But my car still gets 27 mpg???

    I’ll post all the equations if you’d like… they’re essentially taught in physics101.
     
    Why not? You learned in biology 101 that your great-great-great-great-x 37th grandmother was a chimpanzee..

    Replies: @anon

  110. No Daniel-San, again, your post was 100%, almost diametrically wrong:

    There were a whole lot of high school science courses that I

    should not

    have taken.

    Billy explains the truth perfectly from :23-:25.

    Oh, and here is the etymology of the word NASA, not an acroynym as they would have you believe.

    https://www.biblehub.com/hebrew/5378.htm

    Oh, and BTW, the logo represents the forked-tounge of a serpent. But again, crawl first…

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Truth


    If an ant is standing on the bottom of a basketball, it’s head is “below” it’s feet, correct? Or does my limited science background have me mistaken here?
     
    Your frame of reference is incorrect. If your hypothetical ant was standing on a basketball with sufficient gravity to pull it toward itself, then for its purposes the legs are "below" the head.

    You can replicate a variation of this just by getting a magnetic ball and sticking metal paperclips to it. To the paperclips, they are attracted "toward" it and that it its perceptual down, but you can crawl the clips around its surface easily enough even though you are still on Earth with gravity pulling you(and the magnetic ball) toward it.

    The earth is constantly rotating, West to East, at 1100 mph. If you are flying from New York to London, in a plane moving at 600 mph. How do you get there?

     

    The plane still keeps the speed by which it took off with, by flying east, it is just adding further speed(at 600 mph). A hovering object is only "still" by our frame of reference.

    You can experience this just by driving and having a car pull up by you and match your speed; without any other frame of reference, the other car appears still. For it to move faster than you, it increases speed further and it appears to move further than you only by the difference in speed(it is now "ahead"). For it to fall behind, it decreases its speed and it is now "behind." From the frame of reference of the ground, though, it is moving ahead regardless.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Truth

  111. @Achmed E. Newman
    @iffen

    What about the turtles holding everything up? How do they use the bathroom?

    Replies: @iffen

    How do they use the bathroom?

    Just like global capitalists; it’s the tinkle on down model.

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
  112. @Truth
    @Mr. Rational

    The first mistake you Philistines make, is calling it "The Flat Earth." The shape of the earth is too complicated for you, so dispense with it for now. Call us "Fixed Earthers", or "Geocentric Modelers", because the earth does not move, and is the center of the so-called "Universe." please crawl before you walk.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    If you weren’t a raving moron, you’d realize that gyrocompasses and Foucault pendulums prove that the earth rotates.

    If you weren’t a raving moron.  (This is what I get for the mistake of clicking “Show comment”.)

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Mr. Rational

    OK Galileo, we'll try it again:

    How does a pilot land an airplane on a runway that is moving 1,100 mph.?

    Replies: @iffen

  113. @SFG
    @SafeNow

    I'd really want to see a breakdown by sex. I'd suspect Republican women have the old Christian suspicion of anything that smacks of the occult.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    See Hail’s comments above.

    • Replies: @Silva
    @Audacious Epigone

    Also:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Reagan#Astrological_consultations .

  114. @Truth
    No Daniel-San, again, your post was 100%, almost diametrically wrong:

    There were a whole lot of high school science courses that I

    should not
     
    have taken.

    Billy explains the truth perfectly from :23-:25.

    Oh, and here is the etymology of the word NASA, not an acroynym as they would have you believe.

    https://www.biblehub.com/hebrew/5378.htm

    Oh, and BTW, the logo represents the forked-tounge of a serpent. But again, crawl first...

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    If an ant is standing on the bottom of a basketball, it’s head is “below” it’s feet, correct? Or does my limited science background have me mistaken here?

    Your frame of reference is incorrect. If your hypothetical ant was standing on a basketball with sufficient gravity to pull it toward itself, then for its purposes the legs are “below” the head.

    You can replicate a variation of this just by getting a magnetic ball and sticking metal paperclips to it. To the paperclips, they are attracted “toward” it and that it its perceptual down, but you can crawl the clips around its surface easily enough even though you are still on Earth with gravity pulling you(and the magnetic ball) toward it.

    The earth is constantly rotating, West to East, at 1100 mph. If you are flying from New York to London, in a plane moving at 600 mph. How do you get there?

    The plane still keeps the speed by which it took off with, by flying east, it is just adding further speed(at 600 mph). A hovering object is only “still” by our frame of reference.

    You can experience this just by driving and having a car pull up by you and match your speed; without any other frame of reference, the other car appears still. For it to move faster than you, it increases speed further and it appears to move further than you only by the difference in speed(it is now “ahead”). For it to fall behind, it decreases its speed and it is now “behind.” From the frame of reference of the ground, though, it is moving ahead regardless.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Daniel Chieh

    Valiant effort.

    , @Truth
    @Daniel Chieh


    Your frame of reference is incorrect. If your hypothetical ant was standing on a basketball with sufficient gravity to pull it toward itself, then for its purposes the legs are “below” the head.
     
    OK, we'll try it again; if one is standing at the top of the Artic Circle, he is standing right side up, as he is at the top of the sphere, is this correct? Therefore, if one is standing in the Antartic circle, one is standing upside down, is this correct?

    The plane still keeps the speed by which it took off with, by flying east, it is just adding further speed(at 600 mph). A hovering object is only “still” by our frame of reference
     
    OK, we'll try it again; The earth is rotating at 1,100 mph. therefore, EVERY POINT ON THE EARTH IS MOVING AT THE SAME TIME. Therefore, EVERY AIRPORT IS MOVING AT THE SAME TIME. So how do you suppose that the air, magically moves along with the earth? that mountains swishing through air do not cause high winds, always, at all time? And again, how does does a pilot land on a target moving 1,100mph? Your automobile analogy is useless. In an automobile, both vehicles are on the ground together, therefore they are theoretically both moving at 1,110 mph, +60 or whatever: Planes are not attached to the ground.

    My friend, you are allowed to believe whatever idiotic deception you so choose, the fact that a bunch of people told you it, does not make it less idiotic.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  115. Maybe Hillary voters are just stupid and confused Astrology with Astronomy.

  116. @Daniel Chieh
    @Truth


    If an ant is standing on the bottom of a basketball, it’s head is “below” it’s feet, correct? Or does my limited science background have me mistaken here?
     
    Your frame of reference is incorrect. If your hypothetical ant was standing on a basketball with sufficient gravity to pull it toward itself, then for its purposes the legs are "below" the head.

    You can replicate a variation of this just by getting a magnetic ball and sticking metal paperclips to it. To the paperclips, they are attracted "toward" it and that it its perceptual down, but you can crawl the clips around its surface easily enough even though you are still on Earth with gravity pulling you(and the magnetic ball) toward it.

    The earth is constantly rotating, West to East, at 1100 mph. If you are flying from New York to London, in a plane moving at 600 mph. How do you get there?

     

    The plane still keeps the speed by which it took off with, by flying east, it is just adding further speed(at 600 mph). A hovering object is only "still" by our frame of reference.

    You can experience this just by driving and having a car pull up by you and match your speed; without any other frame of reference, the other car appears still. For it to move faster than you, it increases speed further and it appears to move further than you only by the difference in speed(it is now "ahead"). For it to fall behind, it decreases its speed and it is now "behind." From the frame of reference of the ground, though, it is moving ahead regardless.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Truth

    Valiant effort.

  117. @Mr. Rational
    @Truth

    If you weren't a raving moron, you'd realize that gyrocompasses and Foucault pendulums prove that the earth rotates.

    If you weren't a raving moron.  (This is what I get for the mistake of clicking "Show comment".)

    Replies: @Truth

    OK Galileo, we’ll try it again:

    How does a pilot land an airplane on a runway that is moving 1,100 mph.?

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Truth

    Is that you, Fred?

  118. @MikeatMikedotMike
    OT - Curious to know how so called peaceful separation solves this:

    https://www.unz.com/sbpdl/more-than-1000-riot-in-new-york-city-demanding-black-and-brown-never-pay-for-fare-on-public-transportation-again/

    Replies: @iffen, @Audacious Epigone

    My argument: It’s not a panacea, but it is an improvement.

  119. @Daniel Chieh
    @Truth


    If an ant is standing on the bottom of a basketball, it’s head is “below” it’s feet, correct? Or does my limited science background have me mistaken here?
     
    Your frame of reference is incorrect. If your hypothetical ant was standing on a basketball with sufficient gravity to pull it toward itself, then for its purposes the legs are "below" the head.

    You can replicate a variation of this just by getting a magnetic ball and sticking metal paperclips to it. To the paperclips, they are attracted "toward" it and that it its perceptual down, but you can crawl the clips around its surface easily enough even though you are still on Earth with gravity pulling you(and the magnetic ball) toward it.

    The earth is constantly rotating, West to East, at 1100 mph. If you are flying from New York to London, in a plane moving at 600 mph. How do you get there?

     

    The plane still keeps the speed by which it took off with, by flying east, it is just adding further speed(at 600 mph). A hovering object is only "still" by our frame of reference.

    You can experience this just by driving and having a car pull up by you and match your speed; without any other frame of reference, the other car appears still. For it to move faster than you, it increases speed further and it appears to move further than you only by the difference in speed(it is now "ahead"). For it to fall behind, it decreases its speed and it is now "behind." From the frame of reference of the ground, though, it is moving ahead regardless.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Truth

    Your frame of reference is incorrect. If your hypothetical ant was standing on a basketball with sufficient gravity to pull it toward itself, then for its purposes the legs are “below” the head.

    OK, we’ll try it again; if one is standing at the top of the Artic Circle, he is standing right side up, as he is at the top of the sphere, is this correct? Therefore, if one is standing in the Antartic circle, one is standing upside down, is this correct?

    The plane still keeps the speed by which it took off with, by flying east, it is just adding further speed(at 600 mph). A hovering object is only “still” by our frame of reference

    OK, we’ll try it again; The earth is rotating at 1,100 mph. therefore, EVERY POINT ON THE EARTH IS MOVING AT THE SAME TIME. Therefore, EVERY AIRPORT IS MOVING AT THE SAME TIME. So how do you suppose that the air, magically moves along with the earth? that mountains swishing through air do not cause high winds, always, at all time? And again, how does does a pilot land on a target moving 1,100mph? Your automobile analogy is useless. In an automobile, both vehicles are on the ground together, therefore they are theoretically both moving at 1,110 mph, +60 or whatever: Planes are not attached to the ground.

    My friend, you are allowed to believe whatever idiotic deception you so choose, the fact that a bunch of people told you it, does not make it less idiotic.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Truth


    OK, we’ll try it again; if one is standing at the top of the Artic Circle, he is standing right side up, as he is at the top of the sphere, is this correct? Therefore, if one is standing in the Antartic circle, one is standing upside down, is this correct?


     

    What is your frame of reference? Up and down only have meaning insofar as your frame of reference.

    The magnetic ball is useful as guide here. Stick a paper clip on top of it, and it is "up" on the sphere. But sit upside down and observe, and it is below the sphere.

    OK, we’ll try it again; The earth is rotating at 1,100 mph. therefore, EVERY POINT ON THE EARTH IS MOVING AT THE SAME TIME. Therefore, EVERY AIRPORT IS MOVING AT THE SAME TIME. So how do you suppose that the air, magically moves along with the earth?
     

    Atmosphere moves at speed of Earth roughly - a simple law of physics is that motion is conserved except against an opposite force. Since earth is moving at a certain speed, it moves the immediate cushion of air next to it(air is also matter), and this creates friction that further moves upper layers of air. Further evidence of this is in jet stream, where the rotational forces interact with solar energy to create strong and steady winds.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream

    I believe that your error lays in an inaccurate understanding of what is matter and the assumption of air as a form of ether immune to the same physical forces that act upon solid and liquid matter.

    The car analogy is therefore entirely serviceable.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

  120. @dfordoom
    @Realist



    Right-wingers who believe avidly in HBD do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races.
     
    No, HBD exists.
     
    Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. People don't care if something is true or not as long as it fits in with their pre-conceived notions.

    Replies: @Realist, @MikeatMikedotMike, @Audacious Epigone, @Herbert West

    What I think motivates me: I have an especially strong aversion to people being blamed for things they should not be blamed for. When biology is ruled out, other explanations are invariably given too much weight–often times they are weighted would they should not be weighted at all. This misattribution is immoral and it feeds destructive anger and resentment.

    Those who accept the reality of human biological differences do not maintain that biology is everything. We tend to be moderates. We just think it means something.

    It’s the extremists who think biology does not mean anything at all–and they dictate the zeitgeist to a large extent. Most people understand biology matters–whether they’re watching sports, choosing a mate, or making a career choice. There is a bit of latitude to talk about it unsystematically on an individual level in polite society, but no tolerance for using it as a meta tool for making sense of the way the world is.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    What I think motivates me: I have an especially strong aversion to people being blamed for things they should not be blamed for. When biology is ruled out, other explanations are invariably given too much weight–often times they are weighted would they should not be weighted at all. This misattribution is immoral and it feeds destructive anger and resentment.
     
    My big objection to biological explanations is that they breed despair, fatalism and hatred. Or they encourage magical solutions - if only we could deport all the people I disapprove of everything would be great. If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    Cultural and social explanations on the other hand do offer some grounds for hope. At the very least the hope for some improvement. If you look at race relations in the US for example it's blindingly obvious that they don't need to be anywhere near as bad as they are. And it's also blindingly obvious that blacks could be, and should be, doing a lot better than they are. If drug usage could be reduced, if family formation could be encouraged somewhat, if more decent unskilled and semi-skilled jobs were available, if cultural decadence could be reduced, then the situation of blacks would certainly improve. Those are difficult tasks, but not impossible, and it's better than giving in to despair.

    Look at Russia in the 90s. An obvious basket case. An economy looted of everything of value. Falling life expectancy. Demographic collapse. Crime out of control. Alcoholism rampant. But Russia today is doing pretty well. Maybe not fantastically well, but pretty well. Those problems were not insoluble. It took hard work and determination to fix things.

    China in 1949 was one of the poorest most backward places on Earth. It wasn't even a nation in any meaningful sense. Today it's a prosperous stable superpower. Imagine if the Chinese Communist Party in 1949 had decided that the Chinese were just hopeless.

    Within my lifetime it was widely believed that India's future was entirely hopeless and would consist of nothing but mass starvation. India still has major major problems but the anticipated disasters did not happen. India today is doing much much better than anyone would have predicted back in the 70s.

    Social, economic and cultural problems cannot be magically solved but they can be ameliorated. HBD encourages the view that everything is hopeless.

    Those who accept the reality of human biological differences do not maintain that biology is everything.
     
    It's a theory rather than a reality. Gravity is a reality. HBD is a theory.

    We tend to be moderates
     
    You're certainly a moderate but take a look at a few comment threads on UR - there are lots of HBDers who are fanatics. And there are lots of HBDers who really do believe that biology is everything.

    Replies: @Talha, @Mr. Rational, @iffen, @iffen, @Audacious Epigone

  121. @Kevin O'Keeffe
    I don't literally believe-in-astrology, but apparently the time of year one is born does contribute to various factors, often in ways that correspond to stereotypes associated with the so-called "signs of the Zodiac". Or so I read in a book many years ago. I can't actually steer anyone to a site with data that confirms the accuracy of that claim, however.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    If school grade cutoff dates were the same everywhere, I could see how that would come to be the case (ie people with one sign would be older than kids with another sign in their same grade level, and astrology horoscopes could play on the dynamics that creates). But they’re not consistent across districts.

  122. @Truth
    @Daniel Chieh


    Your frame of reference is incorrect. If your hypothetical ant was standing on a basketball with sufficient gravity to pull it toward itself, then for its purposes the legs are “below” the head.
     
    OK, we'll try it again; if one is standing at the top of the Artic Circle, he is standing right side up, as he is at the top of the sphere, is this correct? Therefore, if one is standing in the Antartic circle, one is standing upside down, is this correct?

    The plane still keeps the speed by which it took off with, by flying east, it is just adding further speed(at 600 mph). A hovering object is only “still” by our frame of reference
     
    OK, we'll try it again; The earth is rotating at 1,100 mph. therefore, EVERY POINT ON THE EARTH IS MOVING AT THE SAME TIME. Therefore, EVERY AIRPORT IS MOVING AT THE SAME TIME. So how do you suppose that the air, magically moves along with the earth? that mountains swishing through air do not cause high winds, always, at all time? And again, how does does a pilot land on a target moving 1,100mph? Your automobile analogy is useless. In an automobile, both vehicles are on the ground together, therefore they are theoretically both moving at 1,110 mph, +60 or whatever: Planes are not attached to the ground.

    My friend, you are allowed to believe whatever idiotic deception you so choose, the fact that a bunch of people told you it, does not make it less idiotic.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    OK, we’ll try it again; if one is standing at the top of the Artic Circle, he is standing right side up, as he is at the top of the sphere, is this correct? Therefore, if one is standing in the Antartic circle, one is standing upside down, is this correct?

    What is your frame of reference? Up and down only have meaning insofar as your frame of reference.

    The magnetic ball is useful as guide here. Stick a paper clip on top of it, and it is “up” on the sphere. But sit upside down and observe, and it is below the sphere.

    OK, we’ll try it again; The earth is rotating at 1,100 mph. therefore, EVERY POINT ON THE EARTH IS MOVING AT THE SAME TIME. Therefore, EVERY AIRPORT IS MOVING AT THE SAME TIME. So how do you suppose that the air, magically moves along with the earth?

    Atmosphere moves at speed of Earth roughly – a simple law of physics is that motion is conserved except against an opposite force. Since earth is moving at a certain speed, it moves the immediate cushion of air next to it(air is also matter), and this creates friction that further moves upper layers of air. Further evidence of this is in jet stream, where the rotational forces interact with solar energy to create strong and steady winds.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream

    I believe that your error lays in an inaccurate understanding of what is matter and the assumption of air as a form of ether immune to the same physical forces that act upon solid and liquid matter.

    The car analogy is therefore entirely serviceable.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @Daniel Chieh

    When the troll can't even explain why Australians don't fall off, it's time to stop feeding and hit the "Ignore commenter" button.  Or as some wag said, never argue with an idiot.  They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    Replies: @Truth

  123. A lie told once remains a lie but a lie told a thousand times becomes the truth
    -Joseph Goebbels

    The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.
    -Joseph Goebbels

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Truth

    These things are testable.

    Replies: @Truth

  124. anon[251] • Disclaimer says:

    Fraternal twins born at about the same time must have the same horoscope. Yet fraternal twins often have different personalities, especially when the are not of the same sex. I believe Augustine of Hippo used this example to debunk astrology in the 4th century AD, at the tail end of the Roman empire. Does he count in the category of “ancient wisdom”?

  125. @Truth
    A lie told once remains a lie but a lie told a thousand times becomes the truth
    -Joseph Goebbels

    The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.
    -Joseph Goebbels

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    These things are testable.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Daniel Chieh

    You're right.

    OK, time for a test.

    Wave your hand rapidly once in front of, and close to your face. Did you feel a breeze? Great, so did I:

    OK, so why is it that your hand moving throught the air in front of your face at 20 mph creates a breeze, but the Empire State Building moving through the air at 1,100 mph does not?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  126. @LoutishAngloQuebecker
    @Talha

    There seems to be a division between Muslims - there are some who say group identity is not a problem and that whites could become Muslim en masse and that's fine. But there are also (mainly black) muslims who seem to harbor the usual resentment against white people.

    Is this an accurate depiction, and do you see these types of arguments going on regularly? And which side is gaining the upper hand?

    Furthermore, how would you expect a mass conversion of whites to turn out? It would be a great influx of human capital and wealth, for sure, but would you not be suspicious that whites would ruin it over time, either with liberalism, or individualism, which seems hardwired in us?

    I've been investigating this with more interest lately. Some of those Muslim Twitter guys talk a good game with respect to "white shariah" - which I believe would be a positive thing- what the Groypers and alt right are essentially looking for.

    Unfortunately, then I go into the world and sense a great deal of anger, mistrust, and resentment from Muslims towards "white people". The Canadian leftists, at least, have created a heavy intersection between Islam and "person of colour". Perhaps by design.

    Replies: @Talha

    There seems to be a division between Muslims

    Yes.

    This is a long one and off topic since you brought up a hot issue in the Muslim community which is blowing up right now, so I thought it best not to bother people. See rest under MORE tag.

    [MORE]

    there are some who say group identity is not a problem and that whites could become Muslim en masse and that’s fine.

    This is the traditional crowd, the one that has serious Muslim scholarship behind it.

    But there are also (mainly black) muslims who seem to harbor the usual resentment against white people.

    This is the “woke” Muslim crowd. Mostly people that have tangential (if any) relationship to religiou scholarship and mostly graduated from some CRT-woke-SJW-studies university program. And there are plenty of brown Muslims in there too.

    Is this an accurate depiction

    Fairly.

    do you see these types of arguments going on regularly?

    Mostly online – which is a cesspool over-represented by chattering “woke” Muslims. Most of the traditional scholars consider much of Muslim Twitter to be full of borderline murtads (apostates) and zindiqs (heretics). I only see this attitude among the activist-Left-liberal Muslim crowd. I have never seen anything but being welcoming to white converts among serious people of this religion and coming to their defense.

    And which side is gaining the upper hand?

    Time will tell, but “woke” Muslims aren’t really having families and kids, having drunk from the kool-aid. They own the organizations and make a lot of noise online, but – as Dr. Shadee Elmasry once pointed out, the traditional crowd fully owns the mosques.

    It’s an upside down world. In places like the West, we have “woke” Muslims coming into countries as minorities and then insulting their majority white populations. While in Muslim-majority lands, even quite black-African ones like Gambia, traditional Muslims invite white Muslim scholars (like Dr. Umar Faruq Abdallah) and other converts to hold conferences to learn from their knowledge and experiences:
    http://qadriyya.org/conference/10th-annual-conference-2018-videos

    By the way, he has a great set of talks on Islam and how it connects with identity, culture and community:
    https://www.halaltube.com/speaker/umar-faruq-abd-allah

    Traditional Black Muslim scholars like Shaykh Abdullah Ali can cut through the fog and diagnose why certain white people are reacting the way they are:

    Furthermore, how would you expect a mass conversion of whites to turn out?

    Hopefully like the conversion of our brothers like the peoples of the Caucasus; Avars, Daghestanis, Chechens, Circassians, etc.

    Anyone who claims to be Muslim who would not be happy if whites converted en masse, or Thais or some Amazonian tribe, etc. has a deficiency in their faith and a disease in their heart they need to work on.

    would you not be suspicious that whites would ruin it over time, either with liberalism, or individualism, which seems hardwired in us?

    No – this religion doesn’t change its principles for anyone. Has anyone else been able to change it? Do you find anywhere that practicing Muslims say you don’t need to pray 5 times a day. It is called submission for a reason – it is rock solid. The reason people join it is because they realize there is something with themselves that they need to change.

    There isn’t a problem with individualism per se. Some cultures are more individualistic than others and that is perfectly alright if it is within acceptable parameters. The shariah defines what those parameters are; it basically draws you a picture – every culture is free to color the picture as they please as long as they stay within the lines.

    “white shariah”

    There is no such thing as “white shariah” or “black shariah” or “yellow shariah”; the shariah is its own framework that has stood the test of time for 14 centuries over vast cultures. “White shariah” is a meme and a caricature that wouldn’t even be approved by Muslim scholars for how extreme it is.

    I’ll give you an example of how serious community works. Our crew is very traditional and every week, we hold a spiritual gathering at the mosque. To allow for the womenfolk to benefit as much as possible, there is free babysitting offered. The babysitting is run entirely by the men. Middle-aged men who are doctors (literally some being ER attendings), IT professionals, managers in corporations that humble themselves to sit with little kids and tell them stories about cats and squirrels and do arts and crafts with them. This is what it takes to have a community – not some fantasy that will alienate most sane women.

    I go into the world and sense a great deal of anger, mistrust, and resentment from Muslims towards “white people”

    This last weekend, we hosted a spiritual retreat in a local mosque. Brothers came from all over the country. I met a white convert brother named Robert from my old stomping grounds in California. Ex-Marine, tall, blue-eyed, beard like ZZ-Top – his wife and mother also converted. Very cool brother. I made sure he hooked up with another brother who was my roommate in UCLA; a Chinese brother (married to a Southern white convert) who helps organize stuff like martial-arts classes, hikes, camping and shooting-at-the-range with other brothers. They will be adding Robert to the crew. Race wasn’t even an issue – not in the crowd I roll with. In our traditional crowd, the conversation starts with; “how can the universal spiritual brotherhood of Islam accommodate your/my tribe” – it never begins with “how can your/my tribe accommodate the universal brotherhood of Islam.” If you want a great take on the subject of white Muslim identity, I suggest listening to this (starting at 1:14 – really kicks off at 1:19) on the question of “Is it OK to be a white Muslim?” Dr. Shadee Elmasry, a respected traditional Muslim scholar expounds on the concept of identity/tribe and how it is accommodated in Islam and what the shariah demands as its limits:

    A great quote from Br. Ilyas Alex Lahoz (who is a Latino convert):
    “It’s almost like people assume automatically because white people are getting together on the basis of white identity – whatever that means – that it’s eventually going to turn into the KKK; which is a ridculous assumption, especially of your brothers in Islam.”

    Note, that this is the shaykh (Abdul Aziz Suraqa – a white convert scholar from Georgia [now an imam at a major mosque in Pittsburgh] with impeccable credentials; having studied in Yemen, Mauritania and Morocco) that Dr. Shadee stated that he is happy seeing popping up on his home page every day:
    Take away lesson – stay away from the loud “woke” Muslims and take them about as seriously as we do, and you will be fine.

    Peace.

    Note: Russel Brand would make an awesome Sufi shaykh:

    • Replies: @Talha
    @Talha

    What I meant by "1:14" was 1 hour and 14 minutes - I queued it up here:
    https://soundcloud.com/safina-society/docs-news-halloween-alternatives-self-control-twitter#t=1:14:00

  127. @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    What I think motivates me: I have an especially strong aversion to people being blamed for things they should not be blamed for. When biology is ruled out, other explanations are invariably given too much weight--often times they are weighted would they should not be weighted at all. This misattribution is immoral and it feeds destructive anger and resentment.

    Those who accept the reality of human biological differences do not maintain that biology is everything. We tend to be moderates. We just think it means something.

    It's the extremists who think biology does not mean anything at all--and they dictate the zeitgeist to a large extent. Most people understand biology matters--whether they're watching sports, choosing a mate, or making a career choice. There is a bit of latitude to talk about it unsystematically on an individual level in polite society, but no tolerance for using it as a meta tool for making sense of the way the world is.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    What I think motivates me: I have an especially strong aversion to people being blamed for things they should not be blamed for. When biology is ruled out, other explanations are invariably given too much weight–often times they are weighted would they should not be weighted at all. This misattribution is immoral and it feeds destructive anger and resentment.

    My big objection to biological explanations is that they breed despair, fatalism and hatred. Or they encourage magical solutions – if only we could deport all the people I disapprove of everything would be great. If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    Cultural and social explanations on the other hand do offer some grounds for hope. At the very least the hope for some improvement. If you look at race relations in the US for example it’s blindingly obvious that they don’t need to be anywhere near as bad as they are. And it’s also blindingly obvious that blacks could be, and should be, doing a lot better than they are. If drug usage could be reduced, if family formation could be encouraged somewhat, if more decent unskilled and semi-skilled jobs were available, if cultural decadence could be reduced, then the situation of blacks would certainly improve. Those are difficult tasks, but not impossible, and it’s better than giving in to despair.

    Look at Russia in the 90s. An obvious basket case. An economy looted of everything of value. Falling life expectancy. Demographic collapse. Crime out of control. Alcoholism rampant. But Russia today is doing pretty well. Maybe not fantastically well, but pretty well. Those problems were not insoluble. It took hard work and determination to fix things.

    China in 1949 was one of the poorest most backward places on Earth. It wasn’t even a nation in any meaningful sense. Today it’s a prosperous stable superpower. Imagine if the Chinese Communist Party in 1949 had decided that the Chinese were just hopeless.

    Within my lifetime it was widely believed that India’s future was entirely hopeless and would consist of nothing but mass starvation. India still has major major problems but the anticipated disasters did not happen. India today is doing much much better than anyone would have predicted back in the 70s.

    Social, economic and cultural problems cannot be magically solved but they can be ameliorated. HBD encourages the view that everything is hopeless.

    Those who accept the reality of human biological differences do not maintain that biology is everything.

    It’s a theory rather than a reality. Gravity is a reality. HBD is a theory.

    We tend to be moderates

    You’re certainly a moderate but take a look at a few comment threads on UR – there are lots of HBDers who are fanatics. And there are lots of HBDers who really do believe that biology is everything.

    • Replies: @Talha
    @dfordoom


    Imagine if the Chinese Communist Party in 1949 had decided that the Chinese were just hopeless.
     
    Well, they kind of did decide that...they simply bulldozed a few tens of millions of them. Just saying...

    Peace.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    , @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom


    My big objection to biological explanations is that they breed despair, fatalism and hatred.
     
    Completely backwards.  It's the axiom that everything is "a social construction", and the 100% reliable failure that has come from this totally false assumption, which has bred fatalism, despair and hatred.  It's bred hatred of Whites for somehow being the cause of minority failure and dysfunction.  And I. Fucking. Resent. It.  (Don't put it in my face, because you may well get something a lot worse than resentment.)

    As M.G. Miles of Those Who Can See notes, accepting HBD means accepting that NOBODY is to blame.  It's a fact of nature, a consequence of separate evolutionary paths.  You can stop beating yourself up over not fixing things, because there is nothing broken; it's just that we have a population group that did not evolve in or for civilization, and it needs to be kept separate.  You no more have to hate them for being what they are than you would hate a dog for crapping on your lawn instead of assisting with your kid's algebra homework.

    Or they encourage magical solutions – if only we could deport all the people I disapprove of everything would be great.
     
    It would be very easy to make our African criminals serve their sentences in Africa, and find their own way back afterward.  It would certainly be more of a deterrent to future misbehavior than our current comfy prisons are.

    If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.
     
    What do you think Jim Crow was?  What do you think segregation was?  They were eminently practical solutions to the problem of an underclass of savages, and they worked just fine until some evil HBD-deniers got them outlawed and decided to Blame Whitey instead.

    Gravity is a reality. HBD is a theory.
     
    Go read A Troublesome Inheritance for the tl;dr version, and The Ten Thousand Year Explosion for the 200-level course.  You really should read The Bell Curve before claiming you have anything resembling an informed opinion (I have) but I bet you're allergic to the title.

    Then go read some HBD Chick for a while.  She's got clues and she gives 'em out for free.  Take two, they're small.  I won't recommend West Hunter to you yet because you are not in a position to understand any of it until you have rejected your erroneous axioms.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Truth

    , @iffen
    @dfordoom

    If you look at right-wing[ers] HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    No charge!

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @iffen
    @dfordoom

    HBD is a theory.

    Gravity, evolution and HBD.

    Can you spot the commonality?

    Theories that explain and predict and which are gounded in rational scientific inquiry.

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    It doesn't need to create a sense of fatalism. To the contrary--and this is what first attracted me to Steve Sailer nearly two decades ago--it's information that is ideally used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems. For example, instead of focusing on closing the racial gap in education, focus on improving educational outcomes, etc.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  128. @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    What I think motivates me: I have an especially strong aversion to people being blamed for things they should not be blamed for. When biology is ruled out, other explanations are invariably given too much weight–often times they are weighted would they should not be weighted at all. This misattribution is immoral and it feeds destructive anger and resentment.
     
    My big objection to biological explanations is that they breed despair, fatalism and hatred. Or they encourage magical solutions - if only we could deport all the people I disapprove of everything would be great. If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    Cultural and social explanations on the other hand do offer some grounds for hope. At the very least the hope for some improvement. If you look at race relations in the US for example it's blindingly obvious that they don't need to be anywhere near as bad as they are. And it's also blindingly obvious that blacks could be, and should be, doing a lot better than they are. If drug usage could be reduced, if family formation could be encouraged somewhat, if more decent unskilled and semi-skilled jobs were available, if cultural decadence could be reduced, then the situation of blacks would certainly improve. Those are difficult tasks, but not impossible, and it's better than giving in to despair.

    Look at Russia in the 90s. An obvious basket case. An economy looted of everything of value. Falling life expectancy. Demographic collapse. Crime out of control. Alcoholism rampant. But Russia today is doing pretty well. Maybe not fantastically well, but pretty well. Those problems were not insoluble. It took hard work and determination to fix things.

    China in 1949 was one of the poorest most backward places on Earth. It wasn't even a nation in any meaningful sense. Today it's a prosperous stable superpower. Imagine if the Chinese Communist Party in 1949 had decided that the Chinese were just hopeless.

    Within my lifetime it was widely believed that India's future was entirely hopeless and would consist of nothing but mass starvation. India still has major major problems but the anticipated disasters did not happen. India today is doing much much better than anyone would have predicted back in the 70s.

    Social, economic and cultural problems cannot be magically solved but they can be ameliorated. HBD encourages the view that everything is hopeless.

    Those who accept the reality of human biological differences do not maintain that biology is everything.
     
    It's a theory rather than a reality. Gravity is a reality. HBD is a theory.

    We tend to be moderates
     
    You're certainly a moderate but take a look at a few comment threads on UR - there are lots of HBDers who are fanatics. And there are lots of HBDers who really do believe that biology is everything.

    Replies: @Talha, @Mr. Rational, @iffen, @iffen, @Audacious Epigone

    Imagine if the Chinese Communist Party in 1949 had decided that the Chinese were just hopeless.

    Well, they kind of did decide that…they simply bulldozed a few tens of millions of them. Just saying…

    Peace.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Talha


    Well, they kind of did decide that…they simply bulldozed a few tens of millions of them. Just saying…

     

    No. It was the belief that the Chinese had to revitalize themselves at any price necessary. If blood would pay the bill for advancement, then it was seen as completely acceptable. There is precedent for this in Chinese history, but its basically the idea that if sacrificing lives is acceptable in war, then sacrificing lives can be acceptable in any other desperately needed venture.

    This is a significant part of Chinese tradition, even self-critiqued, but its a huge part of the character.

    Replies: @Talha

  129. @Daniel Chieh
    @Truth

    These things are testable.

    Replies: @Truth

    You’re right.

    OK, time for a test.

    Wave your hand rapidly once in front of, and close to your face. Did you feel a breeze? Great, so did I:

    OK, so why is it that your hand moving throught the air in front of your face at 20 mph creates a breeze, but the Empire State Building moving through the air at 1,100 mph does not?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Truth


    OK, so why is it that your hand moving throught the air in front of your face at 20 mph creates a breeze, but the Empire State Building moving through the air at 1,100 mph does not?


     

    Same reason why a rock moving at 20 m/s in water moving at the same speed as the rock will not create huge ripples. As indicated above, the atmosphere moves at essentially the same speed as the planet's rotation so it does not disturb the air.

    If you push a bunch of balls(imagine them as air molecules) against a heavy rock, they'll flow around it and that would be a kind of wind effect. However, notice that if you move the rock in the same direction of your balls at the same speed, it effectively no longer "interrupts" the motion of the balls and therefore no longer disturbs it.

    The reason why we feel something from waving a hand in front of our faces is because the motion of air molecules from the fanning is not matched by a backward motion of our faces at the same constant speed of the air molecules traveling toward us; instead, we interrupt it and thus pick it up as a sense of a gust.

    Replies: @Truth

  130. @Talha
    @dfordoom


    Imagine if the Chinese Communist Party in 1949 had decided that the Chinese were just hopeless.
     
    Well, they kind of did decide that...they simply bulldozed a few tens of millions of them. Just saying...

    Peace.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Well, they kind of did decide that…they simply bulldozed a few tens of millions of them. Just saying…

    No. It was the belief that the Chinese had to revitalize themselves at any price necessary. If blood would pay the bill for advancement, then it was seen as completely acceptable. There is precedent for this in Chinese history, but its basically the idea that if sacrificing lives is acceptable in war, then sacrificing lives can be acceptable in any other desperately needed venture.

    This is a significant part of Chinese tradition, even self-critiqued, but its a huge part of the character.

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Replies: @Talha
    @Daniel Chieh

    It seems like what you are saying is that; what the Communists did was not really a major break from Chinese tradition, correct?

    I guess this seems OK as long as you’re not part of the “any price necessary”...Chairman Mao always looked to be fairly well-fed in the pictures I’ve seen of him.

    Peace.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  131. @Talha
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker


    There seems to be a division between Muslims
     
    Yes.

    This is a long one and off topic since you brought up a hot issue in the Muslim community which is blowing up right now, so I thought it best not to bother people. See rest under MORE tag.


    there are some who say group identity is not a problem and that whites could become Muslim en masse and that’s fine.
     
    This is the traditional crowd, the one that has serious Muslim scholarship behind it.

    But there are also (mainly black) muslims who seem to harbor the usual resentment against white people.
     
    This is the "woke" Muslim crowd. Mostly people that have tangential (if any) relationship to religiou scholarship and mostly graduated from some CRT-woke-SJW-studies university program. And there are plenty of brown Muslims in there too.

    Is this an accurate depiction
     
    Fairly.

    do you see these types of arguments going on regularly?
     
    Mostly online - which is a cesspool over-represented by chattering "woke" Muslims. Most of the traditional scholars consider much of Muslim Twitter to be full of borderline murtads (apostates) and zindiqs (heretics). I only see this attitude among the activist-Left-liberal Muslim crowd. I have never seen anything but being welcoming to white converts among serious people of this religion and coming to their defense.

    And which side is gaining the upper hand?
     
    Time will tell, but "woke" Muslims aren't really having families and kids, having drunk from the kool-aid. They own the organizations and make a lot of noise online, but - as Dr. Shadee Elmasry once pointed out, the traditional crowd fully owns the mosques.

    It's an upside down world. In places like the West, we have "woke" Muslims coming into countries as minorities and then insulting their majority white populations. While in Muslim-majority lands, even quite black-African ones like Gambia, traditional Muslims invite white Muslim scholars (like Dr. Umar Faruq Abdallah) and other converts to hold conferences to learn from their knowledge and experiences:
    http://qadriyya.org/conference/10th-annual-conference-2018-videos

    By the way, he has a great set of talks on Islam and how it connects with identity, culture and community:
    https://www.halaltube.com/speaker/umar-faruq-abd-allah

    Traditional Black Muslim scholars like Shaykh Abdullah Ali can cut through the fog and diagnose why certain white people are reacting the way they are:
    http://twitter.com/BinhamidAli/status/1157899053474226179


    Furthermore, how would you expect a mass conversion of whites to turn out?
     
    Hopefully like the conversion of our brothers like the peoples of the Caucasus; Avars, Daghestanis, Chechens, Circassians, etc.

    Anyone who claims to be Muslim who would not be happy if whites converted en masse, or Thais or some Amazonian tribe, etc. has a deficiency in their faith and a disease in their heart they need to work on.


    would you not be suspicious that whites would ruin it over time, either with liberalism, or individualism, which seems hardwired in us?
     
    No - this religion doesn't change its principles for anyone. Has anyone else been able to change it? Do you find anywhere that practicing Muslims say you don't need to pray 5 times a day. It is called submission for a reason - it is rock solid. The reason people join it is because they realize there is something with themselves that they need to change.

    There isn't a problem with individualism per se. Some cultures are more individualistic than others and that is perfectly alright if it is within acceptable parameters. The shariah defines what those parameters are; it basically draws you a picture - every culture is free to color the picture as they please as long as they stay within the lines.


    “white shariah”
     
    There is no such thing as "white shariah" or "black shariah" or "yellow shariah"; the shariah is its own framework that has stood the test of time for 14 centuries over vast cultures. "White shariah" is a meme and a caricature that wouldn't even be approved by Muslim scholars for how extreme it is.

    I'll give you an example of how serious community works. Our crew is very traditional and every week, we hold a spiritual gathering at the mosque. To allow for the womenfolk to benefit as much as possible, there is free babysitting offered. The babysitting is run entirely by the men. Middle-aged men who are doctors (literally some being ER attendings), IT professionals, managers in corporations that humble themselves to sit with little kids and tell them stories about cats and squirrels and do arts and crafts with them. This is what it takes to have a community - not some fantasy that will alienate most sane women.


    I go into the world and sense a great deal of anger, mistrust, and resentment from Muslims towards “white people”
     
    This last weekend, we hosted a spiritual retreat in a local mosque. Brothers came from all over the country. I met a white convert brother named Robert from my old stomping grounds in California. Ex-Marine, tall, blue-eyed, beard like ZZ-Top - his wife and mother also converted. Very cool brother. I made sure he hooked up with another brother who was my roommate in UCLA; a Chinese brother (married to a Southern white convert) who helps organize stuff like martial-arts classes, hikes, camping and shooting-at-the-range with other brothers. They will be adding Robert to the crew. Race wasn't even an issue - not in the crowd I roll with. In our traditional crowd, the conversation starts with; "how can the universal spiritual brotherhood of Islam accommodate your/my tribe" - it never begins with "how can your/my tribe accommodate the universal brotherhood of Islam." If you want a great take on the subject of white Muslim identity, I suggest listening to this (starting at 1:14 - really kicks off at 1:19) on the question of "Is it OK to be a white Muslim?" Dr. Shadee Elmasry, a respected traditional Muslim scholar expounds on the concept of identity/tribe and how it is accommodated in Islam and what the shariah demands as its limits:
    https://soundcloud.com/safina-society/docs-news-halloween-alternatives-self-control-twitter

    A great quote from Br. Ilyas Alex Lahoz (who is a Latino convert):
    "It's almost like people assume automatically because white people are getting together on the basis of white identity - whatever that means - that it's eventually going to turn into the KKK; which is a ridculous assumption, especially of your brothers in Islam."

    Note, that this is the shaykh (Abdul Aziz Suraqa - a white convert scholar from Georgia [now an imam at a major mosque in Pittsburgh] with impeccable credentials; having studied in Yemen, Mauritania and Morocco) that Dr. Shadee stated that he is happy seeing popping up on his home page every day:
    http://www.cerisnet.org/sites/default/files/Suraqa.jpg

    Take away lesson - stay away from the loud "woke" Muslims and take them about as seriously as we do, and you will be fine.

    Peace.

    Note: Russel Brand would make an awesome Sufi shaykh:
    http://twitter.com/thehussein1001/status/1185875143094165505

    Replies: @Talha

    What I meant by “1:14” was 1 hour and 14 minutes – I queued it up here:

  132. @Truth
    @Daniel Chieh

    You're right.

    OK, time for a test.

    Wave your hand rapidly once in front of, and close to your face. Did you feel a breeze? Great, so did I:

    OK, so why is it that your hand moving throught the air in front of your face at 20 mph creates a breeze, but the Empire State Building moving through the air at 1,100 mph does not?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    OK, so why is it that your hand moving throught the air in front of your face at 20 mph creates a breeze, but the Empire State Building moving through the air at 1,100 mph does not?

    Same reason why a rock moving at 20 m/s in water moving at the same speed as the rock will not create huge ripples. As indicated above, the atmosphere moves at essentially the same speed as the planet’s rotation so it does not disturb the air.

    If you push a bunch of balls(imagine them as air molecules) against a heavy rock, they’ll flow around it and that would be a kind of wind effect. However, notice that if you move the rock in the same direction of your balls at the same speed, it effectively no longer “interrupts” the motion of the balls and therefore no longer disturbs it.

    The reason why we feel something from waving a hand in front of our faces is because the motion of air molecules from the fanning is not matched by a backward motion of our faces at the same constant speed of the air molecules traveling toward us; instead, we interrupt it and thus pick it up as a sense of a gust.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Daniel Chieh

    OK Great.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  133. @Daniel Chieh
    @Truth


    OK, so why is it that your hand moving throught the air in front of your face at 20 mph creates a breeze, but the Empire State Building moving through the air at 1,100 mph does not?


     

    Same reason why a rock moving at 20 m/s in water moving at the same speed as the rock will not create huge ripples. As indicated above, the atmosphere moves at essentially the same speed as the planet's rotation so it does not disturb the air.

    If you push a bunch of balls(imagine them as air molecules) against a heavy rock, they'll flow around it and that would be a kind of wind effect. However, notice that if you move the rock in the same direction of your balls at the same speed, it effectively no longer "interrupts" the motion of the balls and therefore no longer disturbs it.

    The reason why we feel something from waving a hand in front of our faces is because the motion of air molecules from the fanning is not matched by a backward motion of our faces at the same constant speed of the air molecules traveling toward us; instead, we interrupt it and thus pick it up as a sense of a gust.

    Replies: @Truth

    OK Great.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Truth

    Knowledge is a great gift and worth sharing.

  134. @Truth
    @Daniel Chieh

    OK Great.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Knowledge is a great gift and worth sharing.

  135. @Daniel Chieh
    @Talha


    Well, they kind of did decide that…they simply bulldozed a few tens of millions of them. Just saying…

     

    No. It was the belief that the Chinese had to revitalize themselves at any price necessary. If blood would pay the bill for advancement, then it was seen as completely acceptable. There is precedent for this in Chinese history, but its basically the idea that if sacrificing lives is acceptable in war, then sacrificing lives can be acceptable in any other desperately needed venture.

    This is a significant part of Chinese tradition, even self-critiqued, but its a huge part of the character.

    Replies: @Talha

    It seems like what you are saying is that; what the Communists did was not really a major break from Chinese tradition, correct?

    I guess this seems OK as long as you’re not part of the “any price necessary”…Chairman Mao always looked to be fairly well-fed in the pictures I’ve seen of him.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Talha

    Better to be a general than a soldier.

    Replies: @Talha

  136. @dfordoom
    @Realist



    Right-wingers who believe avidly in HBD do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races.
     
    No, HBD exists.
     
    Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. People don't care if something is true or not as long as it fits in with their pre-conceived notions.

    Replies: @Realist, @MikeatMikedotMike, @Audacious Epigone, @Herbert West

    “Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. ”

    This is in no way a “fact”.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Herbert West


    “Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. ”

    This is in no way a “fact”.
     
    It's just an amazing coincidence that so many people who like the idea of HBD also just happen to have a virulent dislike of non-whites.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

  137. @Talha
    @Daniel Chieh

    It seems like what you are saying is that; what the Communists did was not really a major break from Chinese tradition, correct?

    I guess this seems OK as long as you’re not part of the “any price necessary”...Chairman Mao always looked to be fairly well-fed in the pictures I’ve seen of him.

    Peace.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Better to be a general than a soldier.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
    @Daniel Chieh

    I guess I’m just really wary of leadership that asks everyone else to make the hard sacrifices for the greater good of awesomeness.

    If you are down in the trenches, slogging it out with everyone else, eating one meal a day, etc.; then - I might not agree with you - but you’ll have my respect.


    Peace.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  138. @Daniel Chieh
    @Talha

    Better to be a general than a soldier.

    Replies: @Talha

    I guess I’m just really wary of leadership that asks everyone else to make the hard sacrifices for the greater good of awesomeness.

    If you are down in the trenches, slogging it out with everyone else, eating one meal a day, etc.; then – I might not agree with you – but you’ll have my respect.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Talha

    Well, I don't have any great sympathy for the commies but Mao(and his family) did sacrifice nontrivially as my ancestral overlord tried to suppress them:


    After passing through three of the four blockhouse fortifications needed to escape Chiang's encirclement, the Red Army was finally intercepted by regular Nationalist troops, and suffered heavy casualties. Of the 86,000 Communists who attempted to break out of Jiangxi with the First Red Army, only 36,000 successfully escaped...
     

    In February 1935, Mao's wife, He Zizhen, gave birth to a daughter. Because of the harsh conditions, the infant was left with a local family. (Two Europeans retracing the Long March route in 2003 met a woman in rural Yunnan province said by local officials to be Mao and He Zizhen's long-lost daughter.

     


    In October 1930, the local KMT warlord He Jian captured Yang Kaihui[Mao's second wife] and her son Mao Anying. Her captors wanted her to publicly renounce Mao Zedong and the CPC, but she refused to do so. Even under torture, she is reputed to have told her captors that "You could kill me as you like, you would never get anything from my mouth", "Chopping off the head is like the passing of wind, death could frighten cowards, rather than our Communists", "Even if the seas run dry and the rocks crumble, I would never break off relations with Mao Zedong", and "I prefer to die for the success of Mao's revolution career".

    Yang was executed in Changsha on November 14, 1930 at the age of 29.Her children with Mao Zedong were effectively orphaned, and were rediscovered years later.....Although he would have relationships with other women, Mao mourned Kaihui for the rest of his life.
     
    And then Mao's son Mao Anying would die in the Korean War.

    Replies: @Talha

  139. @Talha
    @Daniel Chieh

    I guess I’m just really wary of leadership that asks everyone else to make the hard sacrifices for the greater good of awesomeness.

    If you are down in the trenches, slogging it out with everyone else, eating one meal a day, etc.; then - I might not agree with you - but you’ll have my respect.


    Peace.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Well, I don’t have any great sympathy for the commies but Mao(and his family) did sacrifice nontrivially as my ancestral overlord tried to suppress them:

    After passing through three of the four blockhouse fortifications needed to escape Chiang’s encirclement, the Red Army was finally intercepted by regular Nationalist troops, and suffered heavy casualties. Of the 86,000 Communists who attempted to break out of Jiangxi with the First Red Army, only 36,000 successfully escaped…

    In February 1935, Mao’s wife, He Zizhen, gave birth to a daughter. Because of the harsh conditions, the infant was left with a local family. (Two Europeans retracing the Long March route in 2003 met a woman in rural Yunnan province said by local officials to be Mao and He Zizhen’s long-lost daughter.

    In October 1930, the local KMT warlord He Jian captured Yang Kaihui[Mao’s second wife] and her son Mao Anying. Her captors wanted her to publicly renounce Mao Zedong and the CPC, but she refused to do so. Even under torture, she is reputed to have told her captors that “You could kill me as you like, you would never get anything from my mouth”, “Chopping off the head is like the passing of wind, death could frighten cowards, rather than our Communists”, “Even if the seas run dry and the rocks crumble, I would never break off relations with Mao Zedong”, and “I prefer to die for the success of Mao’s revolution career”.

    Yang was executed in Changsha on November 14, 1930 at the age of 29.Her children with Mao Zedong were effectively orphaned, and were rediscovered years later…..Although he would have relationships with other women, Mao mourned Kaihui for the rest of his life.

    And then Mao’s son Mao Anying would die in the Korean War.

    • Replies: @Talha
    @Daniel Chieh

    Thanks for that; did not know this. Perhaps they were shown to have made more sacrifices than the nationalists did and won over more people...

    That lady was definitely a true believer in the cause.

    Peace.

  140. @Daniel Chieh
    @Talha

    Well, I don't have any great sympathy for the commies but Mao(and his family) did sacrifice nontrivially as my ancestral overlord tried to suppress them:


    After passing through three of the four blockhouse fortifications needed to escape Chiang's encirclement, the Red Army was finally intercepted by regular Nationalist troops, and suffered heavy casualties. Of the 86,000 Communists who attempted to break out of Jiangxi with the First Red Army, only 36,000 successfully escaped...
     

    In February 1935, Mao's wife, He Zizhen, gave birth to a daughter. Because of the harsh conditions, the infant was left with a local family. (Two Europeans retracing the Long March route in 2003 met a woman in rural Yunnan province said by local officials to be Mao and He Zizhen's long-lost daughter.

     


    In October 1930, the local KMT warlord He Jian captured Yang Kaihui[Mao's second wife] and her son Mao Anying. Her captors wanted her to publicly renounce Mao Zedong and the CPC, but she refused to do so. Even under torture, she is reputed to have told her captors that "You could kill me as you like, you would never get anything from my mouth", "Chopping off the head is like the passing of wind, death could frighten cowards, rather than our Communists", "Even if the seas run dry and the rocks crumble, I would never break off relations with Mao Zedong", and "I prefer to die for the success of Mao's revolution career".

    Yang was executed in Changsha on November 14, 1930 at the age of 29.Her children with Mao Zedong were effectively orphaned, and were rediscovered years later.....Although he would have relationships with other women, Mao mourned Kaihui for the rest of his life.
     
    And then Mao's son Mao Anying would die in the Korean War.

    Replies: @Talha

    Thanks for that; did not know this. Perhaps they were shown to have made more sacrifices than the nationalists did and won over more people…

    That lady was definitely a true believer in the cause.

    Peace.

  141. @Herbert West
    @dfordoom

    “Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. ”

    This is in no way a “fact”.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    “Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. ”

    This is in no way a “fact”.

    It’s just an amazing coincidence that so many people who like the idea of HBD also just happen to have a virulent dislike of non-whites.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    Liking the idea of something because it's a handy pretense for indulging in one's owns biases is hardly limited to HBD. Knowledge is good. There are a lot of people who promote CAGW for political and ideologically reasons. That doesn't mean climate change shouldn't be studied and pondered, though.

    Also, I'd go very long on HBD in China in the 21st century.

  142. @Daniel Chieh
    @Truth


    OK, we’ll try it again; if one is standing at the top of the Artic Circle, he is standing right side up, as he is at the top of the sphere, is this correct? Therefore, if one is standing in the Antartic circle, one is standing upside down, is this correct?


     

    What is your frame of reference? Up and down only have meaning insofar as your frame of reference.

    The magnetic ball is useful as guide here. Stick a paper clip on top of it, and it is "up" on the sphere. But sit upside down and observe, and it is below the sphere.

    OK, we’ll try it again; The earth is rotating at 1,100 mph. therefore, EVERY POINT ON THE EARTH IS MOVING AT THE SAME TIME. Therefore, EVERY AIRPORT IS MOVING AT THE SAME TIME. So how do you suppose that the air, magically moves along with the earth?
     

    Atmosphere moves at speed of Earth roughly - a simple law of physics is that motion is conserved except against an opposite force. Since earth is moving at a certain speed, it moves the immediate cushion of air next to it(air is also matter), and this creates friction that further moves upper layers of air. Further evidence of this is in jet stream, where the rotational forces interact with solar energy to create strong and steady winds.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream

    I believe that your error lays in an inaccurate understanding of what is matter and the assumption of air as a form of ether immune to the same physical forces that act upon solid and liquid matter.

    The car analogy is therefore entirely serviceable.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    When the troll can’t even explain why Australians don’t fall off, it’s time to stop feeding and hit the “Ignore commenter” button.  Or as some wag said, never argue with an idiot.  They’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Mr. Rational

    I can, and have explained why Australians don't fall, off, Rashy; because we live on a plane, not a ball, so there is no "down under." OK, your turn...

  143. @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    What I think motivates me: I have an especially strong aversion to people being blamed for things they should not be blamed for. When biology is ruled out, other explanations are invariably given too much weight–often times they are weighted would they should not be weighted at all. This misattribution is immoral and it feeds destructive anger and resentment.
     
    My big objection to biological explanations is that they breed despair, fatalism and hatred. Or they encourage magical solutions - if only we could deport all the people I disapprove of everything would be great. If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    Cultural and social explanations on the other hand do offer some grounds for hope. At the very least the hope for some improvement. If you look at race relations in the US for example it's blindingly obvious that they don't need to be anywhere near as bad as they are. And it's also blindingly obvious that blacks could be, and should be, doing a lot better than they are. If drug usage could be reduced, if family formation could be encouraged somewhat, if more decent unskilled and semi-skilled jobs were available, if cultural decadence could be reduced, then the situation of blacks would certainly improve. Those are difficult tasks, but not impossible, and it's better than giving in to despair.

    Look at Russia in the 90s. An obvious basket case. An economy looted of everything of value. Falling life expectancy. Demographic collapse. Crime out of control. Alcoholism rampant. But Russia today is doing pretty well. Maybe not fantastically well, but pretty well. Those problems were not insoluble. It took hard work and determination to fix things.

    China in 1949 was one of the poorest most backward places on Earth. It wasn't even a nation in any meaningful sense. Today it's a prosperous stable superpower. Imagine if the Chinese Communist Party in 1949 had decided that the Chinese were just hopeless.

    Within my lifetime it was widely believed that India's future was entirely hopeless and would consist of nothing but mass starvation. India still has major major problems but the anticipated disasters did not happen. India today is doing much much better than anyone would have predicted back in the 70s.

    Social, economic and cultural problems cannot be magically solved but they can be ameliorated. HBD encourages the view that everything is hopeless.

    Those who accept the reality of human biological differences do not maintain that biology is everything.
     
    It's a theory rather than a reality. Gravity is a reality. HBD is a theory.

    We tend to be moderates
     
    You're certainly a moderate but take a look at a few comment threads on UR - there are lots of HBDers who are fanatics. And there are lots of HBDers who really do believe that biology is everything.

    Replies: @Talha, @Mr. Rational, @iffen, @iffen, @Audacious Epigone

    My big objection to biological explanations is that they breed despair, fatalism and hatred.

    Completely backwards.  It’s the axiom that everything is “a social construction”, and the 100% reliable failure that has come from this totally false assumption, which has bred fatalism, despair and hatred.  It’s bred hatred of Whites for somehow being the cause of minority failure and dysfunction.  And I. Fucking. Resent. It.  (Don’t put it in my face, because you may well get something a lot worse than resentment.)

    As M.G. Miles of Those Who Can See notes, accepting HBD means accepting that NOBODY is to blame.  It’s a fact of nature, a consequence of separate evolutionary paths.  You can stop beating yourself up over not fixing things, because there is nothing broken; it’s just that we have a population group that did not evolve in or for civilization, and it needs to be kept separate.  You no more have to hate them for being what they are than you would hate a dog for crapping on your lawn instead of assisting with your kid’s algebra homework.

    Or they encourage magical solutions – if only we could deport all the people I disapprove of everything would be great.

    It would be very easy to make our African criminals serve their sentences in Africa, and find their own way back afterward.  It would certainly be more of a deterrent to future misbehavior than our current comfy prisons are.

    If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    What do you think Jim Crow was?  What do you think segregation was?  They were eminently practical solutions to the problem of an underclass of savages, and they worked just fine until some evil HBD-deniers got them outlawed and decided to Blame Whitey instead.

    Gravity is a reality. HBD is a theory.

    Go read A Troublesome Inheritance for the tl;dr version, and The Ten Thousand Year Explosion for the 200-level course.  You really should read The Bell Curve before claiming you have anything resembling an informed opinion (I have) but I bet you’re allergic to the title.

    Then go read some HBD Chick for a while.  She’s got clues and she gives ’em out for free.  Take two, they’re small.  I won’t recommend West Hunter to you yet because you are not in a position to understand any of it until you have rejected your erroneous axioms.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    Go read A Troublesome Inheritance for the tl;dr version, and The Ten Thousand Year Explosion for the 200-level course. You really should read The Bell Curve before claiming you have anything resembling an informed opinion (I have) but I bet you’re allergic to the title.
     
    I've read all three. HBD is a theory. An interesting theory. It might be true. The jury is still out. HBDers desperately desperately want it to be true.

    As a political posture it's catastrophically wrong-headed. It has contributed to the complete discrediting of the anti-immigration anti-globalist position.


    If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.
     
    What do you think Jim Crow was? What do you think segregation was?
     
    You seriously think those are practical workable solutions in the real world as it exists now?

    It's almost as if HBDers want to discredit the anti-immigration anti-globalist position.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @Audacious Epigone

    , @Truth
    @Mr. Rational


    It’s bred hatred of Whites for somehow being the cause of minority failure and dysfunction. And I. Fucking. Resent. It.
     
    If I remember correctly, you chose an Asian to breed with, and are quite proud of yourself for this, why would you care about a negaive perception of whites?
  144. @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom


    My big objection to biological explanations is that they breed despair, fatalism and hatred.
     
    Completely backwards.  It's the axiom that everything is "a social construction", and the 100% reliable failure that has come from this totally false assumption, which has bred fatalism, despair and hatred.  It's bred hatred of Whites for somehow being the cause of minority failure and dysfunction.  And I. Fucking. Resent. It.  (Don't put it in my face, because you may well get something a lot worse than resentment.)

    As M.G. Miles of Those Who Can See notes, accepting HBD means accepting that NOBODY is to blame.  It's a fact of nature, a consequence of separate evolutionary paths.  You can stop beating yourself up over not fixing things, because there is nothing broken; it's just that we have a population group that did not evolve in or for civilization, and it needs to be kept separate.  You no more have to hate them for being what they are than you would hate a dog for crapping on your lawn instead of assisting with your kid's algebra homework.

    Or they encourage magical solutions – if only we could deport all the people I disapprove of everything would be great.
     
    It would be very easy to make our African criminals serve their sentences in Africa, and find their own way back afterward.  It would certainly be more of a deterrent to future misbehavior than our current comfy prisons are.

    If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.
     
    What do you think Jim Crow was?  What do you think segregation was?  They were eminently practical solutions to the problem of an underclass of savages, and they worked just fine until some evil HBD-deniers got them outlawed and decided to Blame Whitey instead.

    Gravity is a reality. HBD is a theory.
     
    Go read A Troublesome Inheritance for the tl;dr version, and The Ten Thousand Year Explosion for the 200-level course.  You really should read The Bell Curve before claiming you have anything resembling an informed opinion (I have) but I bet you're allergic to the title.

    Then go read some HBD Chick for a while.  She's got clues and she gives 'em out for free.  Take two, they're small.  I won't recommend West Hunter to you yet because you are not in a position to understand any of it until you have rejected your erroneous axioms.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Truth

    Go read A Troublesome Inheritance for the tl;dr version, and The Ten Thousand Year Explosion for the 200-level course. You really should read The Bell Curve before claiming you have anything resembling an informed opinion (I have) but I bet you’re allergic to the title.

    I’ve read all three. HBD is a theory. An interesting theory. It might be true. The jury is still out. HBDers desperately desperately want it to be true.

    As a political posture it’s catastrophically wrong-headed. It has contributed to the complete discrediting of the anti-immigration anti-globalist position.

    If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    What do you think Jim Crow was? What do you think segregation was?

    You seriously think those are practical workable solutions in the real world as it exists now?

    It’s almost as if HBDers want to discredit the anti-immigration anti-globalist position.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom


    As a political posture it’s catastrophically wrong-headed. It has contributed to the complete discrediting of the anti-immigration anti-globalist position.
     
    HBD didn't exist as a theory when Hart-Celler was passed.  You have your chain of causation so messed up, you have the effect coming decades ahead of the cause.

    You seriously think those are practical workable solutions in the real world as it exists now?
     
    FFS, there is NOTHING more practical and workable than protecting yourself from troublesome people BY KEEPING THEM OUT.  The absurdities of insisting that "more education" and "economic assistance" will turn stupid, hateful, violent people into productive, serene citizens are one of the causes of the rage against our treasonous elites.  People are sick of the lies.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    There's a libertarian-leaning HBD response to this, but you're not going to like it! Hint: Those were both government programs. The more modest aim: Simply allow for freedom of association and understand that "disparate impact"--which when explained is unpopular as a reason for 'corrective action' to be taken--is a consequence of diversity.

    Replies: @Brown boi

  145. @Truth
    @Mr. Rational

    OK Galileo, we'll try it again:

    How does a pilot land an airplane on a runway that is moving 1,100 mph.?

    Replies: @iffen

    Is that you, Fred?

  146. @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    What I think motivates me: I have an especially strong aversion to people being blamed for things they should not be blamed for. When biology is ruled out, other explanations are invariably given too much weight–often times they are weighted would they should not be weighted at all. This misattribution is immoral and it feeds destructive anger and resentment.
     
    My big objection to biological explanations is that they breed despair, fatalism and hatred. Or they encourage magical solutions - if only we could deport all the people I disapprove of everything would be great. If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    Cultural and social explanations on the other hand do offer some grounds for hope. At the very least the hope for some improvement. If you look at race relations in the US for example it's blindingly obvious that they don't need to be anywhere near as bad as they are. And it's also blindingly obvious that blacks could be, and should be, doing a lot better than they are. If drug usage could be reduced, if family formation could be encouraged somewhat, if more decent unskilled and semi-skilled jobs were available, if cultural decadence could be reduced, then the situation of blacks would certainly improve. Those are difficult tasks, but not impossible, and it's better than giving in to despair.

    Look at Russia in the 90s. An obvious basket case. An economy looted of everything of value. Falling life expectancy. Demographic collapse. Crime out of control. Alcoholism rampant. But Russia today is doing pretty well. Maybe not fantastically well, but pretty well. Those problems were not insoluble. It took hard work and determination to fix things.

    China in 1949 was one of the poorest most backward places on Earth. It wasn't even a nation in any meaningful sense. Today it's a prosperous stable superpower. Imagine if the Chinese Communist Party in 1949 had decided that the Chinese were just hopeless.

    Within my lifetime it was widely believed that India's future was entirely hopeless and would consist of nothing but mass starvation. India still has major major problems but the anticipated disasters did not happen. India today is doing much much better than anyone would have predicted back in the 70s.

    Social, economic and cultural problems cannot be magically solved but they can be ameliorated. HBD encourages the view that everything is hopeless.

    Those who accept the reality of human biological differences do not maintain that biology is everything.
     
    It's a theory rather than a reality. Gravity is a reality. HBD is a theory.

    We tend to be moderates
     
    You're certainly a moderate but take a look at a few comment threads on UR - there are lots of HBDers who are fanatics. And there are lots of HBDers who really do believe that biology is everything.

    Replies: @Talha, @Mr. Rational, @iffen, @iffen, @Audacious Epigone

    If you look at right-wing[ers] HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    No charge!

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @iffen


    If you look at right-wing[ers] HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    No charge!
     
    One thing I've noticed about the alt-right/dissident right is that they're in love with losing. They seem to get some weird kick out of being marginalised, powerless, despised and regarded with loathing by ordinary people.

    If the subject is immigration they're not interested in all the powerful non-racial arguments (immigration keeps wages low, increases unemployment, leads to overcrowded cities which reduces everyone's quality of life, puts pressure on infrastructure, leads to environmental degradation). No, they'll go straight to the argument that we need to keep inferior races out. And then tell you that immigration is a Jewish plot.

    If the subject is race relations they'll tell you that it's because the blacks are savages and the Jim Crow laws should be brought back. And then tell you that it's all the fault of the Jews.

    If the subject is feminism, instead of arguing that feminism is bad for both men and women they'll just tell you that women are stupid and evil and feminism is all the fault of the Jews anyway.

    And HBD is a prime example. Rightly or wrongly the fact is that there is zero chance of gaining any traction using HBD as an argument. Normies will just assume you're a Nazi and will stop listening to you. You cannot win using HBD as an argument.

    But alt-righters/dissident righters don't care. They want to lose. Maybe they have a martyr complex. Maybe they think that being hated makes them better than other people. Maybe they live in a fantasy world (like the libertarians). Maybe they're just crazy.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @Audacious Epigone

  147. @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    What I think motivates me: I have an especially strong aversion to people being blamed for things they should not be blamed for. When biology is ruled out, other explanations are invariably given too much weight–often times they are weighted would they should not be weighted at all. This misattribution is immoral and it feeds destructive anger and resentment.
     
    My big objection to biological explanations is that they breed despair, fatalism and hatred. Or they encourage magical solutions - if only we could deport all the people I disapprove of everything would be great. If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    Cultural and social explanations on the other hand do offer some grounds for hope. At the very least the hope for some improvement. If you look at race relations in the US for example it's blindingly obvious that they don't need to be anywhere near as bad as they are. And it's also blindingly obvious that blacks could be, and should be, doing a lot better than they are. If drug usage could be reduced, if family formation could be encouraged somewhat, if more decent unskilled and semi-skilled jobs were available, if cultural decadence could be reduced, then the situation of blacks would certainly improve. Those are difficult tasks, but not impossible, and it's better than giving in to despair.

    Look at Russia in the 90s. An obvious basket case. An economy looted of everything of value. Falling life expectancy. Demographic collapse. Crime out of control. Alcoholism rampant. But Russia today is doing pretty well. Maybe not fantastically well, but pretty well. Those problems were not insoluble. It took hard work and determination to fix things.

    China in 1949 was one of the poorest most backward places on Earth. It wasn't even a nation in any meaningful sense. Today it's a prosperous stable superpower. Imagine if the Chinese Communist Party in 1949 had decided that the Chinese were just hopeless.

    Within my lifetime it was widely believed that India's future was entirely hopeless and would consist of nothing but mass starvation. India still has major major problems but the anticipated disasters did not happen. India today is doing much much better than anyone would have predicted back in the 70s.

    Social, economic and cultural problems cannot be magically solved but they can be ameliorated. HBD encourages the view that everything is hopeless.

    Those who accept the reality of human biological differences do not maintain that biology is everything.
     
    It's a theory rather than a reality. Gravity is a reality. HBD is a theory.

    We tend to be moderates
     
    You're certainly a moderate but take a look at a few comment threads on UR - there are lots of HBDers who are fanatics. And there are lots of HBDers who really do believe that biology is everything.

    Replies: @Talha, @Mr. Rational, @iffen, @iffen, @Audacious Epigone

    HBD is a theory.

    Gravity, evolution and HBD.

    Can you spot the commonality?

    Theories that explain and predict and which are gounded in rational scientific inquiry.

  148. @iffen
    @dfordoom

    If you look at right-wing[ers] HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    No charge!

    Replies: @dfordoom

    If you look at right-wing[ers] HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    No charge!

    One thing I’ve noticed about the alt-right/dissident right is that they’re in love with losing. They seem to get some weird kick out of being marginalised, powerless, despised and regarded with loathing by ordinary people.

    If the subject is immigration they’re not interested in all the powerful non-racial arguments (immigration keeps wages low, increases unemployment, leads to overcrowded cities which reduces everyone’s quality of life, puts pressure on infrastructure, leads to environmental degradation). No, they’ll go straight to the argument that we need to keep inferior races out. And then tell you that immigration is a Jewish plot.

    If the subject is race relations they’ll tell you that it’s because the blacks are savages and the Jim Crow laws should be brought back. And then tell you that it’s all the fault of the Jews.

    If the subject is feminism, instead of arguing that feminism is bad for both men and women they’ll just tell you that women are stupid and evil and feminism is all the fault of the Jews anyway.

    And HBD is a prime example. Rightly or wrongly the fact is that there is zero chance of gaining any traction using HBD as an argument. Normies will just assume you’re a Nazi and will stop listening to you. You cannot win using HBD as an argument.

    But alt-righters/dissident righters don’t care. They want to lose. Maybe they have a martyr complex. Maybe they think that being hated makes them better than other people. Maybe they live in a fantasy world (like the libertarians). Maybe they’re just crazy.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom


    One thing I’ve noticed about the alt-right/dissident right is that they’re in love with losing.
     
    "First they ignore you.  Then they ridicule you.  Then they fight you.  Then you win."

    They seem to get some weird kick out of being marginalised, powerless, despised and regarded with loathing by ordinary people.
     
    The only way you can be accepted by the PC, tranny-pushing, immigrant-loving left is to accept all its premises and repeat its dogma without any sign of disbelief.  Meanwhile, the pablum spouted by Conservatism Inc. mouthpieces is increasingly mocked by right-wing students, and they have no answers.

    If the subject is immigration they’re not interested in all the powerful non-racial arguments (immigration keeps wages low, increases unemployment, leads to overcrowded cities which reduces everyone’s quality of life, puts pressure on infrastructure, leads to environmental degradation).
     
    Even the Sierra Club dropped its ZPG position under pressure from globalist cheap-labor fanatics.  They are all bought off or threatened into silence, and it doesn't matter who you are, if you oppose immigration you'll be tagged "racist" or even "nazi".

    Might as well speak the truth, instead of hiding from it.  Truth has power.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    I agree with the sentiments about how counterproductive (and wrong) it is to blame one group for the bulk of the problems or to act as though another group is barely human.

    But HBD has bludgeoned modern feminism. Most people who criticize it now lead with something like "men and women are different".

  149. @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    Go read A Troublesome Inheritance for the tl;dr version, and The Ten Thousand Year Explosion for the 200-level course. You really should read The Bell Curve before claiming you have anything resembling an informed opinion (I have) but I bet you’re allergic to the title.
     
    I've read all three. HBD is a theory. An interesting theory. It might be true. The jury is still out. HBDers desperately desperately want it to be true.

    As a political posture it's catastrophically wrong-headed. It has contributed to the complete discrediting of the anti-immigration anti-globalist position.


    If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.
     
    What do you think Jim Crow was? What do you think segregation was?
     
    You seriously think those are practical workable solutions in the real world as it exists now?

    It's almost as if HBDers want to discredit the anti-immigration anti-globalist position.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @Audacious Epigone

    As a political posture it’s catastrophically wrong-headed. It has contributed to the complete discrediting of the anti-immigration anti-globalist position.

    HBD didn’t exist as a theory when Hart-Celler was passed.  You have your chain of causation so messed up, you have the effect coming decades ahead of the cause.

    You seriously think those are practical workable solutions in the real world as it exists now?

    FFS, there is NOTHING more practical and workable than protecting yourself from troublesome people BY KEEPING THEM OUT.  The absurdities of insisting that “more education” and “economic assistance” will turn stupid, hateful, violent people into productive, serene citizens are one of the causes of the rage against our treasonous elites.  People are sick of the lies.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    FFS, there is NOTHING more practical and workable than protecting yourself from troublesome people BY KEEPING THEM OUT. The absurdities of insisting that “more education” and “economic assistance” will turn stupid, hateful, violent people into productive, serene citizens are one of the causes of the rage against our treasonous elites. People are sick of the lies.
     
    You're missing my point. I want zero immigration to western countries. It's a matter of the strategy you choose. You can choose arguments that have some chance of getting listened to (immigration keeps wages low, increases unemployment, leads to overcrowded cities which reduces everyone’s quality of life, puts pressure on infrastructure, leads to environmental degradation).

    Or you can choose arguments that have zero chance of getting listened to (we need to keep out non-whites because they're stupid, hateful, violent people).

    My view is that making those racially motivated arguments hasn't worked. And won't work. Those arguments discredit immigration restrictionists and make ultimate defeat more likely.

    It's the same with race relations. Making the argument that blacks are stupid, hateful, violent people and that nothing can be done with them isn't going to work. It's going to make the situation worse.

    I don't have a starry-eyed belief that “more education” and “economic assistance” are going to work miracles. I don't believe in utopias. I'm not a liberal. The best that can be hoped for is to improve the situation slightly. That's better than not improving things at all. To make the argument that they're just stupid, hateful, violent people who can never be helped is going to make the situation slightly worse, or possibly much worse.

    You have to ask yourself - do you want to give yourself to chance to win a small victory or do you want to make total defeat a certainty?

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

  150. @dfordoom
    @iffen


    If you look at right-wing[ers] HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    No charge!
     
    One thing I've noticed about the alt-right/dissident right is that they're in love with losing. They seem to get some weird kick out of being marginalised, powerless, despised and regarded with loathing by ordinary people.

    If the subject is immigration they're not interested in all the powerful non-racial arguments (immigration keeps wages low, increases unemployment, leads to overcrowded cities which reduces everyone's quality of life, puts pressure on infrastructure, leads to environmental degradation). No, they'll go straight to the argument that we need to keep inferior races out. And then tell you that immigration is a Jewish plot.

    If the subject is race relations they'll tell you that it's because the blacks are savages and the Jim Crow laws should be brought back. And then tell you that it's all the fault of the Jews.

    If the subject is feminism, instead of arguing that feminism is bad for both men and women they'll just tell you that women are stupid and evil and feminism is all the fault of the Jews anyway.

    And HBD is a prime example. Rightly or wrongly the fact is that there is zero chance of gaining any traction using HBD as an argument. Normies will just assume you're a Nazi and will stop listening to you. You cannot win using HBD as an argument.

    But alt-righters/dissident righters don't care. They want to lose. Maybe they have a martyr complex. Maybe they think that being hated makes them better than other people. Maybe they live in a fantasy world (like the libertarians). Maybe they're just crazy.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @Audacious Epigone

    One thing I’ve noticed about the alt-right/dissident right is that they’re in love with losing.

    “First they ignore you.  Then they ridicule you.  Then they fight you.  Then you win.”

    They seem to get some weird kick out of being marginalised, powerless, despised and regarded with loathing by ordinary people.

    The only way you can be accepted by the PC, tranny-pushing, immigrant-loving left is to accept all its premises and repeat its dogma without any sign of disbelief.  Meanwhile, the pablum spouted by Conservatism Inc. mouthpieces is increasingly mocked by right-wing students, and they have no answers.

    If the subject is immigration they’re not interested in all the powerful non-racial arguments (immigration keeps wages low, increases unemployment, leads to overcrowded cities which reduces everyone’s quality of life, puts pressure on infrastructure, leads to environmental degradation).

    Even the Sierra Club dropped its ZPG position under pressure from globalist cheap-labor fanatics.  They are all bought off or threatened into silence, and it doesn’t matter who you are, if you oppose immigration you’ll be tagged “racist” or even “nazi”.

    Might as well speak the truth, instead of hiding from it.  Truth has power.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    “First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then you win.”
     
    Wishful thinking. The reality is:

    “First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then you lose.”

    Truth has power.
     
    In what alternative universe?
  151. On topic…

  152. @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    What I think motivates me: I have an especially strong aversion to people being blamed for things they should not be blamed for. When biology is ruled out, other explanations are invariably given too much weight–often times they are weighted would they should not be weighted at all. This misattribution is immoral and it feeds destructive anger and resentment.
     
    My big objection to biological explanations is that they breed despair, fatalism and hatred. Or they encourage magical solutions - if only we could deport all the people I disapprove of everything would be great. If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    Cultural and social explanations on the other hand do offer some grounds for hope. At the very least the hope for some improvement. If you look at race relations in the US for example it's blindingly obvious that they don't need to be anywhere near as bad as they are. And it's also blindingly obvious that blacks could be, and should be, doing a lot better than they are. If drug usage could be reduced, if family formation could be encouraged somewhat, if more decent unskilled and semi-skilled jobs were available, if cultural decadence could be reduced, then the situation of blacks would certainly improve. Those are difficult tasks, but not impossible, and it's better than giving in to despair.

    Look at Russia in the 90s. An obvious basket case. An economy looted of everything of value. Falling life expectancy. Demographic collapse. Crime out of control. Alcoholism rampant. But Russia today is doing pretty well. Maybe not fantastically well, but pretty well. Those problems were not insoluble. It took hard work and determination to fix things.

    China in 1949 was one of the poorest most backward places on Earth. It wasn't even a nation in any meaningful sense. Today it's a prosperous stable superpower. Imagine if the Chinese Communist Party in 1949 had decided that the Chinese were just hopeless.

    Within my lifetime it was widely believed that India's future was entirely hopeless and would consist of nothing but mass starvation. India still has major major problems but the anticipated disasters did not happen. India today is doing much much better than anyone would have predicted back in the 70s.

    Social, economic and cultural problems cannot be magically solved but they can be ameliorated. HBD encourages the view that everything is hopeless.

    Those who accept the reality of human biological differences do not maintain that biology is everything.
     
    It's a theory rather than a reality. Gravity is a reality. HBD is a theory.

    We tend to be moderates
     
    You're certainly a moderate but take a look at a few comment threads on UR - there are lots of HBDers who are fanatics. And there are lots of HBDers who really do believe that biology is everything.

    Replies: @Talha, @Mr. Rational, @iffen, @iffen, @Audacious Epigone

    It doesn’t need to create a sense of fatalism. To the contrary–and this is what first attracted me to Steve Sailer nearly two decades ago–it’s information that is ideally used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems. For example, instead of focusing on closing the racial gap in education, focus on improving educational outcomes, etc.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    It doesn’t need to create a sense of fatalism. To the contrary–and this is what first attracted me to Steve Sailer nearly two decades ago–it’s information that is ideally used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems. For example, instead of focusing on closing the racial gap in education, focus on improving educational outcomes, etc.
     
    If there was a chance it would be used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems I'd be all in favour of it. If there was a chance it would be left in the hands of moderates like yourself and Steve Sailer it would be great.

    But there are too many non-moderates and too many crazies who just use it as an excuse to stir up hatreds and to express their extreme dislike for non-whites. The non-moderates and the crazies don't want solutions. You probably don't notice it because you have schoolmarm but if you visit some of the wilder reaches of UR the level of out-and-out racial hatred is disturbing and depressing. And they use HBD to justify their racial hatred.

    One of the things that has to be recognised is that the alt-right/dissident right really does have an unpleasant lunatic fringe.

    The other danger is that HBD will take hope away from blacks, which could lead to very bad consequences.

    Replies: @iffen, @Audacious Epigone, @Mr. Rational

  153. @dfordoom
    @Herbert West


    “Whether it exists or not the fact is that most people who promote it do so because it’s consistent with their dislike of particular races. ”

    This is in no way a “fact”.
     
    It's just an amazing coincidence that so many people who like the idea of HBD also just happen to have a virulent dislike of non-whites.

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    Liking the idea of something because it’s a handy pretense for indulging in one’s owns biases is hardly limited to HBD. Knowledge is good. There are a lot of people who promote CAGW for political and ideologically reasons. That doesn’t mean climate change shouldn’t be studied and pondered, though.

    Also, I’d go very long on HBD in China in the 21st century.

    • Agree: iffen
  154. @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    Go read A Troublesome Inheritance for the tl;dr version, and The Ten Thousand Year Explosion for the 200-level course. You really should read The Bell Curve before claiming you have anything resembling an informed opinion (I have) but I bet you’re allergic to the title.
     
    I've read all three. HBD is a theory. An interesting theory. It might be true. The jury is still out. HBDers desperately desperately want it to be true.

    As a political posture it's catastrophically wrong-headed. It has contributed to the complete discrediting of the anti-immigration anti-globalist position.


    If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.
     
    What do you think Jim Crow was? What do you think segregation was?
     
    You seriously think those are practical workable solutions in the real world as it exists now?

    It's almost as if HBDers want to discredit the anti-immigration anti-globalist position.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @Audacious Epigone

    There’s a libertarian-leaning HBD response to this, but you’re not going to like it! Hint: Those were both government programs. The more modest aim: Simply allow for freedom of association and understand that “disparate impact”–which when explained is unpopular as a reason for ‘corrective action’ to be taken–is a consequence of diversity.

    • Replies: @Brown boi
    @Audacious Epigone

    Thing is that when you make everyone and everything in society an economic unit then everyone is competing for the same high status position.

    Caste solved this but it won't come back until you anglos are firmly in the pit of the grave. 🤷‍♀️☺️

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

  155. @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    There's a libertarian-leaning HBD response to this, but you're not going to like it! Hint: Those were both government programs. The more modest aim: Simply allow for freedom of association and understand that "disparate impact"--which when explained is unpopular as a reason for 'corrective action' to be taken--is a consequence of diversity.

    Replies: @Brown boi

    Thing is that when you make everyone and everything in society an economic unit then everyone is competing for the same high status position.

    Caste solved this but it won’t come back until you anglos are firmly in the pit of the grave. 🤷‍♀️☺️

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @Brown boi

    I think we're closer to Huxley's Brave New World than most people think. The gamma's life would be okay for me, I guess...

  156. @Mr. Rational
    @Daniel Chieh

    When the troll can't even explain why Australians don't fall off, it's time to stop feeding and hit the "Ignore commenter" button.  Or as some wag said, never argue with an idiot.  They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    Replies: @Truth

    I can, and have explained why Australians don’t fall, off, Rashy; because we live on a plane, not a ball, so there is no “down under.” OK, your turn…

  157. @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom


    My big objection to biological explanations is that they breed despair, fatalism and hatred.
     
    Completely backwards.  It's the axiom that everything is "a social construction", and the 100% reliable failure that has come from this totally false assumption, which has bred fatalism, despair and hatred.  It's bred hatred of Whites for somehow being the cause of minority failure and dysfunction.  And I. Fucking. Resent. It.  (Don't put it in my face, because you may well get something a lot worse than resentment.)

    As M.G. Miles of Those Who Can See notes, accepting HBD means accepting that NOBODY is to blame.  It's a fact of nature, a consequence of separate evolutionary paths.  You can stop beating yourself up over not fixing things, because there is nothing broken; it's just that we have a population group that did not evolve in or for civilization, and it needs to be kept separate.  You no more have to hate them for being what they are than you would hate a dog for crapping on your lawn instead of assisting with your kid's algebra homework.

    Or they encourage magical solutions – if only we could deport all the people I disapprove of everything would be great.
     
    It would be very easy to make our African criminals serve their sentences in Africa, and find their own way back afterward.  It would certainly be more of a deterrent to future misbehavior than our current comfy prisons are.

    If you look at right-wing HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.
     
    What do you think Jim Crow was?  What do you think segregation was?  They were eminently practical solutions to the problem of an underclass of savages, and they worked just fine until some evil HBD-deniers got them outlawed and decided to Blame Whitey instead.

    Gravity is a reality. HBD is a theory.
     
    Go read A Troublesome Inheritance for the tl;dr version, and The Ten Thousand Year Explosion for the 200-level course.  You really should read The Bell Curve before claiming you have anything resembling an informed opinion (I have) but I bet you're allergic to the title.

    Then go read some HBD Chick for a while.  She's got clues and she gives 'em out for free.  Take two, they're small.  I won't recommend West Hunter to you yet because you are not in a position to understand any of it until you have rejected your erroneous axioms.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Truth

    It’s bred hatred of Whites for somehow being the cause of minority failure and dysfunction. And I. Fucking. Resent. It.

    If I remember correctly, you chose an Asian to breed with, and are quite proud of yourself for this, why would you care about a negaive perception of whites?

  158. @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom


    As a political posture it’s catastrophically wrong-headed. It has contributed to the complete discrediting of the anti-immigration anti-globalist position.
     
    HBD didn't exist as a theory when Hart-Celler was passed.  You have your chain of causation so messed up, you have the effect coming decades ahead of the cause.

    You seriously think those are practical workable solutions in the real world as it exists now?
     
    FFS, there is NOTHING more practical and workable than protecting yourself from troublesome people BY KEEPING THEM OUT.  The absurdities of insisting that "more education" and "economic assistance" will turn stupid, hateful, violent people into productive, serene citizens are one of the causes of the rage against our treasonous elites.  People are sick of the lies.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    FFS, there is NOTHING more practical and workable than protecting yourself from troublesome people BY KEEPING THEM OUT. The absurdities of insisting that “more education” and “economic assistance” will turn stupid, hateful, violent people into productive, serene citizens are one of the causes of the rage against our treasonous elites. People are sick of the lies.

    You’re missing my point. I want zero immigration to western countries. It’s a matter of the strategy you choose. You can choose arguments that have some chance of getting listened to (immigration keeps wages low, increases unemployment, leads to overcrowded cities which reduces everyone’s quality of life, puts pressure on infrastructure, leads to environmental degradation).

    Or you can choose arguments that have zero chance of getting listened to (we need to keep out non-whites because they’re stupid, hateful, violent people).

    My view is that making those racially motivated arguments hasn’t worked. And won’t work. Those arguments discredit immigration restrictionists and make ultimate defeat more likely.

    It’s the same with race relations. Making the argument that blacks are stupid, hateful, violent people and that nothing can be done with them isn’t going to work. It’s going to make the situation worse.

    I don’t have a starry-eyed belief that “more education” and “economic assistance” are going to work miracles. I don’t believe in utopias. I’m not a liberal. The best that can be hoped for is to improve the situation slightly. That’s better than not improving things at all. To make the argument that they’re just stupid, hateful, violent people who can never be helped is going to make the situation slightly worse, or possibly much worse.

    You have to ask yourself – do you want to give yourself to chance to win a small victory or do you want to make total defeat a certainty?

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    I've tried to note frequently that the best chance for immigration restriction is to push for a full moratorium. It's the only way to hook into the WEIRDO sense of fairness.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  159. @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom


    One thing I’ve noticed about the alt-right/dissident right is that they’re in love with losing.
     
    "First they ignore you.  Then they ridicule you.  Then they fight you.  Then you win."

    They seem to get some weird kick out of being marginalised, powerless, despised and regarded with loathing by ordinary people.
     
    The only way you can be accepted by the PC, tranny-pushing, immigrant-loving left is to accept all its premises and repeat its dogma without any sign of disbelief.  Meanwhile, the pablum spouted by Conservatism Inc. mouthpieces is increasingly mocked by right-wing students, and they have no answers.

    If the subject is immigration they’re not interested in all the powerful non-racial arguments (immigration keeps wages low, increases unemployment, leads to overcrowded cities which reduces everyone’s quality of life, puts pressure on infrastructure, leads to environmental degradation).
     
    Even the Sierra Club dropped its ZPG position under pressure from globalist cheap-labor fanatics.  They are all bought off or threatened into silence, and it doesn't matter who you are, if you oppose immigration you'll be tagged "racist" or even "nazi".

    Might as well speak the truth, instead of hiding from it.  Truth has power.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    “First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then you win.”

    Wishful thinking. The reality is:

    “First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then you lose.”

    Truth has power.

    In what alternative universe?

  160. @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    It doesn't need to create a sense of fatalism. To the contrary--and this is what first attracted me to Steve Sailer nearly two decades ago--it's information that is ideally used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems. For example, instead of focusing on closing the racial gap in education, focus on improving educational outcomes, etc.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    It doesn’t need to create a sense of fatalism. To the contrary–and this is what first attracted me to Steve Sailer nearly two decades ago–it’s information that is ideally used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems. For example, instead of focusing on closing the racial gap in education, focus on improving educational outcomes, etc.

    If there was a chance it would be used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems I’d be all in favour of it. If there was a chance it would be left in the hands of moderates like yourself and Steve Sailer it would be great.

    But there are too many non-moderates and too many crazies who just use it as an excuse to stir up hatreds and to express their extreme dislike for non-whites. The non-moderates and the crazies don’t want solutions. You probably don’t notice it because you have schoolmarm but if you visit some of the wilder reaches of UR the level of out-and-out racial hatred is disturbing and depressing. And they use HBD to justify their racial hatred.

    One of the things that has to be recognised is that the alt-right/dissident right really does have an unpleasant lunatic fringe.

    The other danger is that HBD will take hope away from blacks, which could lead to very bad consequences.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @dfordoom


    And HBD is a prime example. Rightly or wrongly the fact is that there is zero chance of gaining any traction using HBD as an argument. Normies will just assume you’re a Nazi and will stop listening to you. You cannot win using HBD as an argument.
    ...
    One of the things that has to be recognised is that the alt-right/dissident right really does have an unpleasant lunatic fringe.

    The other danger is that HBD will take hope away from blacks, which could lead to very bad consequences.
     

    HBD is not a political argument. You are correct that a politics openly based upon it as the central premise is going nowhere. The point is to choose your politics based upon the knowledge that it is factual and not so-called psuedoscience.

    Correctly analyzing the problem increases the probability of arriving at correct solutions.

    Ignoring basic knowledge greatly increases the probability of failure.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    That's a very thoughtful response, thanks. I'll need to ponder it.

    , @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom


    If there was a chance it would be used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems I’d be all in favour of it.
     
    So you're subjecting HBD to Catch-22.  It's necessary to recognizing the actual source of the problems and disparities and why the axiom of equality has never led to successful policies, but you're afraid of it because the "wrong" people will get control of policy so you deny HBD.

    Children who act out in class are a real-world problem.  We could recognize that some cannot be reasoned with and subject them to punishment such as paddling until they learn to behave, but that tried-and-true cultural solution has now been ruled off the table.  One of the consequences of this is that many of our schools are chaotic hells in which it is effectively impossible for teachers to do any instruction.  This is what happens when the truth is deemed Wrongthink.

    But there are too many non-moderates and too many crazies who just use it as an excuse to stir up hatreds and to express their extreme dislike for non-whites. The non-moderates and the crazies don’t want solutions.
     
    I don't hate them; the ill-will I bear them stems from decades of having to suffer the problems they create.  I want to be able to not think about them.  Culture clashes and inter-racial crimes ARE a problem, and separation is most definitely a solution.

    One of the things that has to be recognised is that the alt-right/dissident right really does have an unpleasant lunatic fringe.
     
    Most of us just want to live our lives without being constantly accused of this week's variety of racism or wanting another holocaust.  Is that really too much to ask?

    The other danger is that HBD will take hope away from blacks, which could lead to very bad consequences.
     
    Bad consequences for whom?  There could be a slaughter 100x the scale of Rwanda, and it would have only minor effects here so long as it was confined to Africans in Africa.  Given that said demographic not only doesn't care about homicides among their own but calls you the R-word if you dare to Notice, my level of caring about such things has gone below zero.  It's called Negro Fatigue, and it's real.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  161. @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    It doesn’t need to create a sense of fatalism. To the contrary–and this is what first attracted me to Steve Sailer nearly two decades ago–it’s information that is ideally used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems. For example, instead of focusing on closing the racial gap in education, focus on improving educational outcomes, etc.
     
    If there was a chance it would be used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems I'd be all in favour of it. If there was a chance it would be left in the hands of moderates like yourself and Steve Sailer it would be great.

    But there are too many non-moderates and too many crazies who just use it as an excuse to stir up hatreds and to express their extreme dislike for non-whites. The non-moderates and the crazies don't want solutions. You probably don't notice it because you have schoolmarm but if you visit some of the wilder reaches of UR the level of out-and-out racial hatred is disturbing and depressing. And they use HBD to justify their racial hatred.

    One of the things that has to be recognised is that the alt-right/dissident right really does have an unpleasant lunatic fringe.

    The other danger is that HBD will take hope away from blacks, which could lead to very bad consequences.

    Replies: @iffen, @Audacious Epigone, @Mr. Rational

    And HBD is a prime example. Rightly or wrongly the fact is that there is zero chance of gaining any traction using HBD as an argument. Normies will just assume you’re a Nazi and will stop listening to you. You cannot win using HBD as an argument.

    One of the things that has to be recognised is that the alt-right/dissident right really does have an unpleasant lunatic fringe.

    The other danger is that HBD will take hope away from blacks, which could lead to very bad consequences.

    HBD is not a political argument. You are correct that a politics openly based upon it as the central premise is going nowhere. The point is to choose your politics based upon the knowledge that it is factual and not so-called psuedoscience.

    Correctly analyzing the problem increases the probability of arriving at correct solutions.

    Ignoring basic knowledge greatly increases the probability of failure.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @iffen


    HBD is not a political argument.
     
    It's both a scientific hypothesis and a political argument. Just as anthropogenic global warming is both a scientific hypothesis and a political argument.

    You are correct that a politics openly based upon it as the central premise is going nowhere. The point is to choose your politics based upon the knowledge that it is factual and not so-called psuedoscience.
     
    Our knowledge of human behaviour today is at roughly the point that our knowledge of physics was at in the 17th century. We have a few reasonably convincing sounding explanation but like 17th century physics they may turn out to be entirely wrong. In the 17th century Newtonian physics was settled science. But it was wrong.

    Correctly analyzing the problem increases the probability of arriving at correct solutions.
     
    True. Which is another of my objections to HBD. Too many of its acolytes have no interest in analysing any social, economic or cultural factors that are contributing to the problems we have today. Too many of its acolytes adopt it as a religious dogma.

    Replies: @iffen

  162. @iffen
    @dfordoom


    And HBD is a prime example. Rightly or wrongly the fact is that there is zero chance of gaining any traction using HBD as an argument. Normies will just assume you’re a Nazi and will stop listening to you. You cannot win using HBD as an argument.
    ...
    One of the things that has to be recognised is that the alt-right/dissident right really does have an unpleasant lunatic fringe.

    The other danger is that HBD will take hope away from blacks, which could lead to very bad consequences.
     

    HBD is not a political argument. You are correct that a politics openly based upon it as the central premise is going nowhere. The point is to choose your politics based upon the knowledge that it is factual and not so-called psuedoscience.

    Correctly analyzing the problem increases the probability of arriving at correct solutions.

    Ignoring basic knowledge greatly increases the probability of failure.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    HBD is not a political argument.

    It’s both a scientific hypothesis and a political argument. Just as anthropogenic global warming is both a scientific hypothesis and a political argument.

    You are correct that a politics openly based upon it as the central premise is going nowhere. The point is to choose your politics based upon the knowledge that it is factual and not so-called psuedoscience.

    Our knowledge of human behaviour today is at roughly the point that our knowledge of physics was at in the 17th century. We have a few reasonably convincing sounding explanation but like 17th century physics they may turn out to be entirely wrong. In the 17th century Newtonian physics was settled science. But it was wrong.

    Correctly analyzing the problem increases the probability of arriving at correct solutions.

    True. Which is another of my objections to HBD. Too many of its acolytes have no interest in analysing any social, economic or cultural factors that are contributing to the problems we have today. Too many of its acolytes adopt it as a religious dogma.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @dfordoom

    Too many of its acolytes adopt it as a religious dogma.

    That doesn't have anything to do with the scientific validity of the work that shows different races are different in many ways or that an individual's IQ is beyond his control.

    You have already stated that you understand that hardcore racists, Jew-haters and such take to HBD like pigs to slop. Can't you see that they were that way before HBD? They didn't need it before and they don't need it now to continue with their prejudices and politics.

    It is a fallacy to blame HBD for dogma and racist beliefs that existed before the term was coined.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  163. @dfordoom
    @iffen


    HBD is not a political argument.
     
    It's both a scientific hypothesis and a political argument. Just as anthropogenic global warming is both a scientific hypothesis and a political argument.

    You are correct that a politics openly based upon it as the central premise is going nowhere. The point is to choose your politics based upon the knowledge that it is factual and not so-called psuedoscience.
     
    Our knowledge of human behaviour today is at roughly the point that our knowledge of physics was at in the 17th century. We have a few reasonably convincing sounding explanation but like 17th century physics they may turn out to be entirely wrong. In the 17th century Newtonian physics was settled science. But it was wrong.

    Correctly analyzing the problem increases the probability of arriving at correct solutions.
     
    True. Which is another of my objections to HBD. Too many of its acolytes have no interest in analysing any social, economic or cultural factors that are contributing to the problems we have today. Too many of its acolytes adopt it as a religious dogma.

    Replies: @iffen

    Too many of its acolytes adopt it as a religious dogma.

    That doesn’t have anything to do with the scientific validity of the work that shows different races are different in many ways or that an individual’s IQ is beyond his control.

    You have already stated that you understand that hardcore racists, Jew-haters and such take to HBD like pigs to slop. Can’t you see that they were that way before HBD? They didn’t need it before and they don’t need it now to continue with their prejudices and politics.

    It is a fallacy to blame HBD for dogma and racist beliefs that existed before the term was coined.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @iffen


    You have already stated that you understand that hardcore racists, Jew-haters and such take to HBD like pigs to slop. Can’t you see that they were that way before HBD?
     
    Of course. I agree 100%. Because HBD, in practice and for most of its true believers, is a political position not science. Which is what I've been arguing. They believe it because it reinforces the beliefs they already hold.

    It is a fallacy to blame HBD for dogma and racist beliefs that existed before the term was coined.
     
    I don't blame it for those beliefs. I blame it for giving the globalist/SJWs such an incredibly useful stick with which to beat anti-globalists/immigration restrictionists. It makes it so easy for them to accuse anti-globalists/immigration restrictionists of believing in the kind of scientific racism that got discredited by that Austrian painter guy with the funny moustache.

    And it's no good saying "but it's true and the truth always wins" because the truth very rarely wins.
  164. @dfordoom
    @iffen


    If you look at right-wing[ers] HBDers they seem to have no interest in looking for practical workable solutions.

    No charge!
     
    One thing I've noticed about the alt-right/dissident right is that they're in love with losing. They seem to get some weird kick out of being marginalised, powerless, despised and regarded with loathing by ordinary people.

    If the subject is immigration they're not interested in all the powerful non-racial arguments (immigration keeps wages low, increases unemployment, leads to overcrowded cities which reduces everyone's quality of life, puts pressure on infrastructure, leads to environmental degradation). No, they'll go straight to the argument that we need to keep inferior races out. And then tell you that immigration is a Jewish plot.

    If the subject is race relations they'll tell you that it's because the blacks are savages and the Jim Crow laws should be brought back. And then tell you that it's all the fault of the Jews.

    If the subject is feminism, instead of arguing that feminism is bad for both men and women they'll just tell you that women are stupid and evil and feminism is all the fault of the Jews anyway.

    And HBD is a prime example. Rightly or wrongly the fact is that there is zero chance of gaining any traction using HBD as an argument. Normies will just assume you're a Nazi and will stop listening to you. You cannot win using HBD as an argument.

    But alt-righters/dissident righters don't care. They want to lose. Maybe they have a martyr complex. Maybe they think that being hated makes them better than other people. Maybe they live in a fantasy world (like the libertarians). Maybe they're just crazy.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational, @Audacious Epigone

    I agree with the sentiments about how counterproductive (and wrong) it is to blame one group for the bulk of the problems or to act as though another group is barely human.

    But HBD has bludgeoned modern feminism. Most people who criticize it now lead with something like “men and women are different”.

  165. @Brown boi
    @Audacious Epigone

    Thing is that when you make everyone and everything in society an economic unit then everyone is competing for the same high status position.

    Caste solved this but it won't come back until you anglos are firmly in the pit of the grave. 🤷‍♀️☺️

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    I think we’re closer to Huxley’s Brave New World than most people think. The gamma’s life would be okay for me, I guess…

  166. @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    FFS, there is NOTHING more practical and workable than protecting yourself from troublesome people BY KEEPING THEM OUT. The absurdities of insisting that “more education” and “economic assistance” will turn stupid, hateful, violent people into productive, serene citizens are one of the causes of the rage against our treasonous elites. People are sick of the lies.
     
    You're missing my point. I want zero immigration to western countries. It's a matter of the strategy you choose. You can choose arguments that have some chance of getting listened to (immigration keeps wages low, increases unemployment, leads to overcrowded cities which reduces everyone’s quality of life, puts pressure on infrastructure, leads to environmental degradation).

    Or you can choose arguments that have zero chance of getting listened to (we need to keep out non-whites because they're stupid, hateful, violent people).

    My view is that making those racially motivated arguments hasn't worked. And won't work. Those arguments discredit immigration restrictionists and make ultimate defeat more likely.

    It's the same with race relations. Making the argument that blacks are stupid, hateful, violent people and that nothing can be done with them isn't going to work. It's going to make the situation worse.

    I don't have a starry-eyed belief that “more education” and “economic assistance” are going to work miracles. I don't believe in utopias. I'm not a liberal. The best that can be hoped for is to improve the situation slightly. That's better than not improving things at all. To make the argument that they're just stupid, hateful, violent people who can never be helped is going to make the situation slightly worse, or possibly much worse.

    You have to ask yourself - do you want to give yourself to chance to win a small victory or do you want to make total defeat a certainty?

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    I’ve tried to note frequently that the best chance for immigration restriction is to push for a full moratorium. It’s the only way to hook into the WEIRDO sense of fairness.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    I’ve tried to note frequently that the best chance for immigration restriction is to push for a full moratorium. It’s the only way to hook into the WEIRDO sense of fairness.
     
    Yes, I agree. Immigration policy has to be all or none. It's a losing strategy to argue for restricting immigration on the basis of race, religion, culture, education qualifications, IQ, etc. There's just no way of selling such a policy. Such a policy looks racist, discriminatory, unfair and immoral. And you'll never get it past that WEIRDO sense of fairness.

    So the answer is to argue for zero immigration.

    That also has the advantage that the immigration moratorium can be sold as being necessary on economic and environmental grounds, so people don't have to feel guilty about supporting it. We're stopping immigration to save the planet!

    What depresses me about so much of the dissident right is that they just can't see that some strategies are doomed to failure while others have at least a chance of success.
  167. @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    It doesn’t need to create a sense of fatalism. To the contrary–and this is what first attracted me to Steve Sailer nearly two decades ago–it’s information that is ideally used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems. For example, instead of focusing on closing the racial gap in education, focus on improving educational outcomes, etc.
     
    If there was a chance it would be used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems I'd be all in favour of it. If there was a chance it would be left in the hands of moderates like yourself and Steve Sailer it would be great.

    But there are too many non-moderates and too many crazies who just use it as an excuse to stir up hatreds and to express their extreme dislike for non-whites. The non-moderates and the crazies don't want solutions. You probably don't notice it because you have schoolmarm but if you visit some of the wilder reaches of UR the level of out-and-out racial hatred is disturbing and depressing. And they use HBD to justify their racial hatred.

    One of the things that has to be recognised is that the alt-right/dissident right really does have an unpleasant lunatic fringe.

    The other danger is that HBD will take hope away from blacks, which could lead to very bad consequences.

    Replies: @iffen, @Audacious Epigone, @Mr. Rational

    That’s a very thoughtful response, thanks. I’ll need to ponder it.

  168. @iffen
    @dfordoom

    Too many of its acolytes adopt it as a religious dogma.

    That doesn't have anything to do with the scientific validity of the work that shows different races are different in many ways or that an individual's IQ is beyond his control.

    You have already stated that you understand that hardcore racists, Jew-haters and such take to HBD like pigs to slop. Can't you see that they were that way before HBD? They didn't need it before and they don't need it now to continue with their prejudices and politics.

    It is a fallacy to blame HBD for dogma and racist beliefs that existed before the term was coined.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    You have already stated that you understand that hardcore racists, Jew-haters and such take to HBD like pigs to slop. Can’t you see that they were that way before HBD?

    Of course. I agree 100%. Because HBD, in practice and for most of its true believers, is a political position not science. Which is what I’ve been arguing. They believe it because it reinforces the beliefs they already hold.

    It is a fallacy to blame HBD for dogma and racist beliefs that existed before the term was coined.

    I don’t blame it for those beliefs. I blame it for giving the globalist/SJWs such an incredibly useful stick with which to beat anti-globalists/immigration restrictionists. It makes it so easy for them to accuse anti-globalists/immigration restrictionists of believing in the kind of scientific racism that got discredited by that Austrian painter guy with the funny moustache.

    And it’s no good saying “but it’s true and the truth always wins” because the truth very rarely wins.

  169. @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    I've tried to note frequently that the best chance for immigration restriction is to push for a full moratorium. It's the only way to hook into the WEIRDO sense of fairness.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    I’ve tried to note frequently that the best chance for immigration restriction is to push for a full moratorium. It’s the only way to hook into the WEIRDO sense of fairness.

    Yes, I agree. Immigration policy has to be all or none. It’s a losing strategy to argue for restricting immigration on the basis of race, religion, culture, education qualifications, IQ, etc. There’s just no way of selling such a policy. Such a policy looks racist, discriminatory, unfair and immoral. And you’ll never get it past that WEIRDO sense of fairness.

    So the answer is to argue for zero immigration.

    That also has the advantage that the immigration moratorium can be sold as being necessary on economic and environmental grounds, so people don’t have to feel guilty about supporting it. We’re stopping immigration to save the planet!

    What depresses me about so much of the dissident right is that they just can’t see that some strategies are doomed to failure while others have at least a chance of success.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  170. @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    It doesn’t need to create a sense of fatalism. To the contrary–and this is what first attracted me to Steve Sailer nearly two decades ago–it’s information that is ideally used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems. For example, instead of focusing on closing the racial gap in education, focus on improving educational outcomes, etc.
     
    If there was a chance it would be used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems I'd be all in favour of it. If there was a chance it would be left in the hands of moderates like yourself and Steve Sailer it would be great.

    But there are too many non-moderates and too many crazies who just use it as an excuse to stir up hatreds and to express their extreme dislike for non-whites. The non-moderates and the crazies don't want solutions. You probably don't notice it because you have schoolmarm but if you visit some of the wilder reaches of UR the level of out-and-out racial hatred is disturbing and depressing. And they use HBD to justify their racial hatred.

    One of the things that has to be recognised is that the alt-right/dissident right really does have an unpleasant lunatic fringe.

    The other danger is that HBD will take hope away from blacks, which could lead to very bad consequences.

    Replies: @iffen, @Audacious Epigone, @Mr. Rational

    If there was a chance it would be used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems I’d be all in favour of it.

    So you’re subjecting HBD to Catch-22.  It’s necessary to recognizing the actual source of the problems and disparities and why the axiom of equality has never led to successful policies, but you’re afraid of it because the “wrong” people will get control of policy so you deny HBD.

    Children who act out in class are a real-world problem.  We could recognize that some cannot be reasoned with and subject them to punishment such as paddling until they learn to behave, but that tried-and-true cultural solution has now been ruled off the table.  One of the consequences of this is that many of our schools are chaotic hells in which it is effectively impossible for teachers to do any instruction.  This is what happens when the truth is deemed Wrongthink.

    But there are too many non-moderates and too many crazies who just use it as an excuse to stir up hatreds and to express their extreme dislike for non-whites. The non-moderates and the crazies don’t want solutions.

    I don’t hate them; the ill-will I bear them stems from decades of having to suffer the problems they create.  I want to be able to not think about them.  Culture clashes and inter-racial crimes ARE a problem, and separation is most definitely a solution.

    One of the things that has to be recognised is that the alt-right/dissident right really does have an unpleasant lunatic fringe.

    Most of us just want to live our lives without being constantly accused of this week’s variety of racism or wanting another holocaust.  Is that really too much to ask?

    The other danger is that HBD will take hope away from blacks, which could lead to very bad consequences.

    Bad consequences for whom?  There could be a slaughter 100x the scale of Rwanda, and it would have only minor effects here so long as it was confined to Africans in Africa.  Given that said demographic not only doesn’t care about homicides among their own but calls you the R-word if you dare to Notice, my level of caring about such things has gone below zero.  It’s called Negro Fatigue, and it’s real.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    So you’re subjecting HBD to Catch-22. It’s necessary to recognizing the actual source of the problems and disparities and why the axiom of equality has never led to successful policies, but you’re afraid of it because the “wrong” people will get control of policy so you deny HBD.
     
    I don't deny HBD. I just think it's unproven. I'm a sceptic, not a denier.

    And I don't think it's the actual source of the problems and disparities. There are multiple sources of those problems and disparities - political, economic, social, spiritual and cultural.

    I do think that promoting HBD will make the solution of those problems absolutely impossible politically. Whether it's true or not true HBD is going to be a disaster. It might have some good effects - it might destroy the Right completely.

    The axiom of equality has never led to successful policies because those policies coincided with cultural disintegration and economic evils (such as the destruction of manufacturing industry). Given the cultural disintegration and economic evils no policies could have succeeded.

    Replies: @iffen, @Mr. Rational, @Audacious Epigone

  171. @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom


    If there was a chance it would be used to calibrate better cultural solutions to real world problems I’d be all in favour of it.
     
    So you're subjecting HBD to Catch-22.  It's necessary to recognizing the actual source of the problems and disparities and why the axiom of equality has never led to successful policies, but you're afraid of it because the "wrong" people will get control of policy so you deny HBD.

    Children who act out in class are a real-world problem.  We could recognize that some cannot be reasoned with and subject them to punishment such as paddling until they learn to behave, but that tried-and-true cultural solution has now been ruled off the table.  One of the consequences of this is that many of our schools are chaotic hells in which it is effectively impossible for teachers to do any instruction.  This is what happens when the truth is deemed Wrongthink.

    But there are too many non-moderates and too many crazies who just use it as an excuse to stir up hatreds and to express their extreme dislike for non-whites. The non-moderates and the crazies don’t want solutions.
     
    I don't hate them; the ill-will I bear them stems from decades of having to suffer the problems they create.  I want to be able to not think about them.  Culture clashes and inter-racial crimes ARE a problem, and separation is most definitely a solution.

    One of the things that has to be recognised is that the alt-right/dissident right really does have an unpleasant lunatic fringe.
     
    Most of us just want to live our lives without being constantly accused of this week's variety of racism or wanting another holocaust.  Is that really too much to ask?

    The other danger is that HBD will take hope away from blacks, which could lead to very bad consequences.
     
    Bad consequences for whom?  There could be a slaughter 100x the scale of Rwanda, and it would have only minor effects here so long as it was confined to Africans in Africa.  Given that said demographic not only doesn't care about homicides among their own but calls you the R-word if you dare to Notice, my level of caring about such things has gone below zero.  It's called Negro Fatigue, and it's real.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    So you’re subjecting HBD to Catch-22. It’s necessary to recognizing the actual source of the problems and disparities and why the axiom of equality has never led to successful policies, but you’re afraid of it because the “wrong” people will get control of policy so you deny HBD.

    I don’t deny HBD. I just think it’s unproven. I’m a sceptic, not a denier.

    And I don’t think it’s the actual source of the problems and disparities. There are multiple sources of those problems and disparities – political, economic, social, spiritual and cultural.

    I do think that promoting HBD will make the solution of those problems absolutely impossible politically. Whether it’s true or not true HBD is going to be a disaster. It might have some good effects – it might destroy the Right completely.

    The axiom of equality has never led to successful policies because those policies coincided with cultural disintegration and economic evils (such as the destruction of manufacturing industry). Given the cultural disintegration and economic evils no policies could have succeeded.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @dfordoom

    The axiom of equality has never led to successful policies because those policies coincided with cultural disintegration and economic evils (such as the destruction of manufacturing industry). were formulated and executed without including HBD as an integral part of the analysis and planning.

    No charge!

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    , @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom


    I don’t think it’s the actual source of the problems and disparities. There are multiple sources of those problems and disparities – political, economic, social, spiritual and cultural.
     
    Every last one of those things is downstream from race.  I'm having trouble finding it, but one S. African pol declared that White farmers wouldn't be missed because they could just get meat from the supermarket.  This is the same cognitive deficiency behind cargo cults:  there is an inability to reason, this inability is strongly correlated with race, and the only realistic conclusion is that it is genetic.  (There's no "fixing" it; the mental heuristic works just fine in the Africans' own environments and societies.  But it is totally wrong for civilization.)

    Note that I say "realistic", not "politically palatable in $CURRENT_YEAR" or "acceptable to our (((overlords))) who want to genocide us anyway".

    I do think that promoting HBD will make the solution of those problems absolutely impossible politically.
     
    You keep using that word.  I don't think it means what you think it means.

    There exists no peaceful, productive society anywhere on this earth where Africans are integrated with others.  Africans have taken over a number of formerly-White cities and turned them into disaster areas, and the same is true of entire countries (Rhodesia).  What would a "solution" to this phenomenon look like?  Waving a magic wand and turning all the Africans into Danes would do, but magic wands all seem to be on back order.  Failing that, the first test your "solution" has to pass is physical possibility.  This is the rock that all the social engineering programs of the last 70 years have foundered on.  It is not physically possible to either educate or bribe Africans to act like White people.

    Whether it’s true or not true HBD is going to be a disaster.
     
    What is more disastrous than the product of the last 3/4 century of radical egalitarian theory?

    The axiom of equality has never led to successful policies because those policies coincided with cultural disintegration and economic evils (such as the destruction of manufacturing industry).
     
    "Just coincided" you say, as if there is not—COULD NOT BE—any causal relationship.

    That causal chain starts with African behavior and goes on to "desegregation" and "anti-discrimination".  Blacks destroyed the auto industry in Detroit and Flint once they were allowed into the UAW.  Workers who once took some pride in a job well done and knew when it wasn't were replaced by Dunning-Kruger exemplars who didn't give a shit.  America responded to the crap coming off the lines by buying Toyotas and Hondas.  The auto industry's response was to close the plants in Flint and Detroit and move to places like Tennessee, which were much whiter.  This was only partially successful as they still had "equal opportunity" hiring mandates, so the next step was to off-shore a lot of manufacturing to places where "anti-discrimination" law did not reach:  "white flight", but for industry.

    You haven't tried to describe a "solution", probably because your vision sounds ridiculous even to you.  Well, you better get moving.  If you think it's bad now, we've got even bumpier roads ahead because the robot revolution is rapidly automating all the low-skill jobs.  We are probably at the point where anyone with a sub-85 IQ is unemployable, which includes fully half of all Africans-in-America (and 16% of Whites).  This is only going to get worse as machines get smarter and raise the cutoff point.  This trend will continue until the dumbing-down population becomes unable to build the machines, at which point it all collapses.

    I have a solution to this.  First, restore the right of free association.  Second, pay the low-IQ not to reproduce or expatriate; make things sufficiently miserable if they have babies that they serve as examples to the rest.  If the 'hoods and barrios become rapidly-emptying baby-free zones, that's fine.  If the hollers of W. Virginia do the same, great; those zones have been brain-drained for decades and there probably isn't enough human capital there to do anything.  But no matter how unpalatable it is to you right now, the first thing on the agenda is separation.

    Replies: @iffen, @iffen, @dfordoom

    , @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    The scientific underpinnings of HBD are in the process of becoming a lot stronger. I'm not sure exactly how that will play out.

  172. @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    So you’re subjecting HBD to Catch-22. It’s necessary to recognizing the actual source of the problems and disparities and why the axiom of equality has never led to successful policies, but you’re afraid of it because the “wrong” people will get control of policy so you deny HBD.
     
    I don't deny HBD. I just think it's unproven. I'm a sceptic, not a denier.

    And I don't think it's the actual source of the problems and disparities. There are multiple sources of those problems and disparities - political, economic, social, spiritual and cultural.

    I do think that promoting HBD will make the solution of those problems absolutely impossible politically. Whether it's true or not true HBD is going to be a disaster. It might have some good effects - it might destroy the Right completely.

    The axiom of equality has never led to successful policies because those policies coincided with cultural disintegration and economic evils (such as the destruction of manufacturing industry). Given the cultural disintegration and economic evils no policies could have succeeded.

    Replies: @iffen, @Mr. Rational, @Audacious Epigone

    The axiom of equality has never led to successful policies because those policies coincided with cultural disintegration and economic evils (such as the destruction of manufacturing industry). were formulated and executed without including HBD as an integral part of the analysis and planning.

    No charge!

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @iffen

    At the very least, the explanatory power of biology should have to be positively disproven rather than positively proven. Maybe there are legitimate cases where "disparate impact" has nothing to do with biology, but that's not the way to bet.

    Replies: @iffen, @dfordoom

  173. @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    So you’re subjecting HBD to Catch-22. It’s necessary to recognizing the actual source of the problems and disparities and why the axiom of equality has never led to successful policies, but you’re afraid of it because the “wrong” people will get control of policy so you deny HBD.
     
    I don't deny HBD. I just think it's unproven. I'm a sceptic, not a denier.

    And I don't think it's the actual source of the problems and disparities. There are multiple sources of those problems and disparities - political, economic, social, spiritual and cultural.

    I do think that promoting HBD will make the solution of those problems absolutely impossible politically. Whether it's true or not true HBD is going to be a disaster. It might have some good effects - it might destroy the Right completely.

    The axiom of equality has never led to successful policies because those policies coincided with cultural disintegration and economic evils (such as the destruction of manufacturing industry). Given the cultural disintegration and economic evils no policies could have succeeded.

    Replies: @iffen, @Mr. Rational, @Audacious Epigone

    I don’t think it’s the actual source of the problems and disparities. There are multiple sources of those problems and disparities – political, economic, social, spiritual and cultural.

    Every last one of those things is downstream from race.  I’m having trouble finding it, but one S. African pol declared that White farmers wouldn’t be missed because they could just get meat from the supermarket.  This is the same cognitive deficiency behind cargo cults:  there is an inability to reason, this inability is strongly correlated with race, and the only realistic conclusion is that it is genetic.  (There’s no “fixing” it; the mental heuristic works just fine in the Africans’ own environments and societies.  But it is totally wrong for civilization.)

    Note that I say “realistic”, not “politically palatable in $CURRENT_YEAR” or “acceptable to our (((overlords))) who want to genocide us anyway”.

    I do think that promoting HBD will make the solution of those problems absolutely impossible politically.

    You keep using that word.  I don’t think it means what you think it means.

    There exists no peaceful, productive society anywhere on this earth where Africans are integrated with others.  Africans have taken over a number of formerly-White cities and turned them into disaster areas, and the same is true of entire countries (Rhodesia).  What would a “solution” to this phenomenon look like?  Waving a magic wand and turning all the Africans into Danes would do, but magic wands all seem to be on back order.  Failing that, the first test your “solution” has to pass is physical possibility.  This is the rock that all the social engineering programs of the last 70 years have foundered on.  It is not physically possible to either educate or bribe Africans to act like White people.

    Whether it’s true or not true HBD is going to be a disaster.

    What is more disastrous than the product of the last 3/4 century of radical egalitarian theory?

    The axiom of equality has never led to successful policies because those policies coincided with cultural disintegration and economic evils (such as the destruction of manufacturing industry).

    “Just coincided” you say, as if there is not—COULD NOT BE—any causal relationship.

    That causal chain starts with African behavior and goes on to “desegregation” and “anti-discrimination”.  Blacks destroyed the auto industry in Detroit and Flint once they were allowed into the UAW.  Workers who once took some pride in a job well done and knew when it wasn’t were replaced by Dunning-Kruger exemplars who didn’t give a shit.  America responded to the crap coming off the lines by buying Toyotas and Hondas.  The auto industry’s response was to close the plants in Flint and Detroit and move to places like Tennessee, which were much whiter.  This was only partially successful as they still had “equal opportunity” hiring mandates, so the next step was to off-shore a lot of manufacturing to places where “anti-discrimination” law did not reach:  “white flight”, but for industry.

    You haven’t tried to describe a “solution”, probably because your vision sounds ridiculous even to you.  Well, you better get moving.  If you think it’s bad now, we’ve got even bumpier roads ahead because the robot revolution is rapidly automating all the low-skill jobs.  We are probably at the point where anyone with a sub-85 IQ is unemployable, which includes fully half of all Africans-in-America (and 16% of Whites).  This is only going to get worse as machines get smarter and raise the cutoff point.  This trend will continue until the dumbing-down population becomes unable to build the machines, at which point it all collapses.

    I have a solution to this.  First, restore the right of free association.  Second, pay the low-IQ not to reproduce or expatriate; make things sufficiently miserable if they have babies that they serve as examples to the rest.  If the ‘hoods and barrios become rapidly-emptying baby-free zones, that’s fine.  If the hollers of W. Virginia do the same, great; those zones have been brain-drained for decades and there probably isn’t enough human capital there to do anything.  But no matter how unpalatable it is to you right now, the first thing on the agenda is separation.

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Replies: @iffen
    @Mr. Rational

    There exists no peaceful, productive society anywhere on this earth where Africans are integrated with others.

    ... O ye of little faith ...

    If it was easy and a given, it would be boring. We have to work at it. We've come too far to turn back now.

    Genesis 3:5

    For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    , @iffen
    @Mr. Rational

    (((overlords)))

    And you claim to be rational.

    , @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    Note that I say “realistic”, not “politically palatable in $CURRENT_YEAR” or “acceptable to our (((overlords))) who want to genocide us anyway”.
     
    You keep using that word genocide. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

    I have a solution to this. First, restore the right of free association. Second, pay the low-IQ not to reproduce or expatriate; make things sufficiently miserable if they have babies that they serve as examples to the rest.
     
    Now your suggestion is still not quite genocide but it's much closer to it.

    But no matter how unpalatable it is to you right now, the first thing on the agenda is separation.
     
    That's a good idea. Start with something impossible and then work your way up to the hard stuff.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

  174. @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    So you’re subjecting HBD to Catch-22. It’s necessary to recognizing the actual source of the problems and disparities and why the axiom of equality has never led to successful policies, but you’re afraid of it because the “wrong” people will get control of policy so you deny HBD.
     
    I don't deny HBD. I just think it's unproven. I'm a sceptic, not a denier.

    And I don't think it's the actual source of the problems and disparities. There are multiple sources of those problems and disparities - political, economic, social, spiritual and cultural.

    I do think that promoting HBD will make the solution of those problems absolutely impossible politically. Whether it's true or not true HBD is going to be a disaster. It might have some good effects - it might destroy the Right completely.

    The axiom of equality has never led to successful policies because those policies coincided with cultural disintegration and economic evils (such as the destruction of manufacturing industry). Given the cultural disintegration and economic evils no policies could have succeeded.

    Replies: @iffen, @Mr. Rational, @Audacious Epigone

    The scientific underpinnings of HBD are in the process of becoming a lot stronger. I’m not sure exactly how that will play out.

  175. @iffen
    @dfordoom

    The axiom of equality has never led to successful policies because those policies coincided with cultural disintegration and economic evils (such as the destruction of manufacturing industry). were formulated and executed without including HBD as an integral part of the analysis and planning.

    No charge!

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    At the very least, the explanatory power of biology should have to be positively disproven rather than positively proven. Maybe there are legitimate cases where “disparate impact” has nothing to do with biology, but that’s not the way to bet.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Audacious Epigone

    Maybe there are legitimate cases where “disparate impact” has nothing to do with biology, but that’s not the way to bet.

    Disparate impact is taken as evidence that there is discrimination, which is fallacious.

    However, we are prisoners of our past, and there was discrimination in the past, lots of it, and the excuses made then can be interpreted as sounding a lot like arguments deriving from HBD today. That's one of the reasons why I don't get my panties in a complete wad over some of the complaints by minorites. If you understand the past, and you expect equal outcomes, disparate impact is perfectly reasonable.

    Anyway, we should advocate for equality of opportunity and that would be a full time job and keep us out of trouble.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    , @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    At the very least, the explanatory power of biology should have to be positively disproven rather than positively proven.
     
    So can you explain why any other theory would have to be positively proven, but for some reason HBD is a special case and it doesn't need to be actually proven?

    Could it be that you're not really that confident that it can be proven?

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

  176. @Audacious Epigone
    @iffen

    At the very least, the explanatory power of biology should have to be positively disproven rather than positively proven. Maybe there are legitimate cases where "disparate impact" has nothing to do with biology, but that's not the way to bet.

    Replies: @iffen, @dfordoom

    Maybe there are legitimate cases where “disparate impact” has nothing to do with biology, but that’s not the way to bet.

    Disparate impact is taken as evidence that there is discrimination, which is fallacious.

    However, we are prisoners of our past, and there was discrimination in the past, lots of it, and the excuses made then can be interpreted as sounding a lot like arguments deriving from HBD today. That’s one of the reasons why I don’t get my panties in a complete wad over some of the complaints by minorites. If you understand the past, and you expect equal outcomes, disparate impact is perfectly reasonable.

    Anyway, we should advocate for equality of opportunity and that would be a full time job and keep us out of trouble.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @iffen


    there was discrimination in the past, lots of it
     
    And a great deal of it justified.  People from low-trust cultures require extra work being on your guard, people speaking different languages require extra effort to translate, people from clannish societies see nothing wrong with selling out the common good for personal or family gain.  It is entirely right to discriminate against such people if you are not one of them; unless they are working to assimilate they are doing it to you by virtue of being in YOUR country, parasitizing your patrimony.
  177. @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom


    I don’t think it’s the actual source of the problems and disparities. There are multiple sources of those problems and disparities – political, economic, social, spiritual and cultural.
     
    Every last one of those things is downstream from race.  I'm having trouble finding it, but one S. African pol declared that White farmers wouldn't be missed because they could just get meat from the supermarket.  This is the same cognitive deficiency behind cargo cults:  there is an inability to reason, this inability is strongly correlated with race, and the only realistic conclusion is that it is genetic.  (There's no "fixing" it; the mental heuristic works just fine in the Africans' own environments and societies.  But it is totally wrong for civilization.)

    Note that I say "realistic", not "politically palatable in $CURRENT_YEAR" or "acceptable to our (((overlords))) who want to genocide us anyway".

    I do think that promoting HBD will make the solution of those problems absolutely impossible politically.
     
    You keep using that word.  I don't think it means what you think it means.

    There exists no peaceful, productive society anywhere on this earth where Africans are integrated with others.  Africans have taken over a number of formerly-White cities and turned them into disaster areas, and the same is true of entire countries (Rhodesia).  What would a "solution" to this phenomenon look like?  Waving a magic wand and turning all the Africans into Danes would do, but magic wands all seem to be on back order.  Failing that, the first test your "solution" has to pass is physical possibility.  This is the rock that all the social engineering programs of the last 70 years have foundered on.  It is not physically possible to either educate or bribe Africans to act like White people.

    Whether it’s true or not true HBD is going to be a disaster.
     
    What is more disastrous than the product of the last 3/4 century of radical egalitarian theory?

    The axiom of equality has never led to successful policies because those policies coincided with cultural disintegration and economic evils (such as the destruction of manufacturing industry).
     
    "Just coincided" you say, as if there is not—COULD NOT BE—any causal relationship.

    That causal chain starts with African behavior and goes on to "desegregation" and "anti-discrimination".  Blacks destroyed the auto industry in Detroit and Flint once they were allowed into the UAW.  Workers who once took some pride in a job well done and knew when it wasn't were replaced by Dunning-Kruger exemplars who didn't give a shit.  America responded to the crap coming off the lines by buying Toyotas and Hondas.  The auto industry's response was to close the plants in Flint and Detroit and move to places like Tennessee, which were much whiter.  This was only partially successful as they still had "equal opportunity" hiring mandates, so the next step was to off-shore a lot of manufacturing to places where "anti-discrimination" law did not reach:  "white flight", but for industry.

    You haven't tried to describe a "solution", probably because your vision sounds ridiculous even to you.  Well, you better get moving.  If you think it's bad now, we've got even bumpier roads ahead because the robot revolution is rapidly automating all the low-skill jobs.  We are probably at the point where anyone with a sub-85 IQ is unemployable, which includes fully half of all Africans-in-America (and 16% of Whites).  This is only going to get worse as machines get smarter and raise the cutoff point.  This trend will continue until the dumbing-down population becomes unable to build the machines, at which point it all collapses.

    I have a solution to this.  First, restore the right of free association.  Second, pay the low-IQ not to reproduce or expatriate; make things sufficiently miserable if they have babies that they serve as examples to the rest.  If the 'hoods and barrios become rapidly-emptying baby-free zones, that's fine.  If the hollers of W. Virginia do the same, great; those zones have been brain-drained for decades and there probably isn't enough human capital there to do anything.  But no matter how unpalatable it is to you right now, the first thing on the agenda is separation.

    Replies: @iffen, @iffen, @dfordoom

    There exists no peaceful, productive society anywhere on this earth where Africans are integrated with others.

    … O ye of little faith …

    If it was easy and a given, it would be boring. We have to work at it. We’ve come too far to turn back now.

    Genesis 3:5

    For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @iffen


    If it was easy and a given, it would be boring. We have to work at it.
     
    A much wiser man than you or I had some words on that subject a while back.  His name is Rudyard Kipling; perhaps you've heard of him?

    We’ve come too far to turn back now.
     
    We've been at this for the better part of a century, in which time we have gone nowhere (and in some cases, backwards).  The African-in-America still commits over half the criminal homicides in the country, still fails in school to the point where we have to have a new educational fad every decade to "close the gap", and is still an economic basket case.

    If it was going to work, it would have worked by now.  What the last 70 years have settled conclusively is that it wastes your time and annoys the p̶i̶g̶ dindu.

    YOU work on it.  With your own time and money.  I'm done.
  178. @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom


    I don’t think it’s the actual source of the problems and disparities. There are multiple sources of those problems and disparities – political, economic, social, spiritual and cultural.
     
    Every last one of those things is downstream from race.  I'm having trouble finding it, but one S. African pol declared that White farmers wouldn't be missed because they could just get meat from the supermarket.  This is the same cognitive deficiency behind cargo cults:  there is an inability to reason, this inability is strongly correlated with race, and the only realistic conclusion is that it is genetic.  (There's no "fixing" it; the mental heuristic works just fine in the Africans' own environments and societies.  But it is totally wrong for civilization.)

    Note that I say "realistic", not "politically palatable in $CURRENT_YEAR" or "acceptable to our (((overlords))) who want to genocide us anyway".

    I do think that promoting HBD will make the solution of those problems absolutely impossible politically.
     
    You keep using that word.  I don't think it means what you think it means.

    There exists no peaceful, productive society anywhere on this earth where Africans are integrated with others.  Africans have taken over a number of formerly-White cities and turned them into disaster areas, and the same is true of entire countries (Rhodesia).  What would a "solution" to this phenomenon look like?  Waving a magic wand and turning all the Africans into Danes would do, but magic wands all seem to be on back order.  Failing that, the first test your "solution" has to pass is physical possibility.  This is the rock that all the social engineering programs of the last 70 years have foundered on.  It is not physically possible to either educate or bribe Africans to act like White people.

    Whether it’s true or not true HBD is going to be a disaster.
     
    What is more disastrous than the product of the last 3/4 century of radical egalitarian theory?

    The axiom of equality has never led to successful policies because those policies coincided with cultural disintegration and economic evils (such as the destruction of manufacturing industry).
     
    "Just coincided" you say, as if there is not—COULD NOT BE—any causal relationship.

    That causal chain starts with African behavior and goes on to "desegregation" and "anti-discrimination".  Blacks destroyed the auto industry in Detroit and Flint once they were allowed into the UAW.  Workers who once took some pride in a job well done and knew when it wasn't were replaced by Dunning-Kruger exemplars who didn't give a shit.  America responded to the crap coming off the lines by buying Toyotas and Hondas.  The auto industry's response was to close the plants in Flint and Detroit and move to places like Tennessee, which were much whiter.  This was only partially successful as they still had "equal opportunity" hiring mandates, so the next step was to off-shore a lot of manufacturing to places where "anti-discrimination" law did not reach:  "white flight", but for industry.

    You haven't tried to describe a "solution", probably because your vision sounds ridiculous even to you.  Well, you better get moving.  If you think it's bad now, we've got even bumpier roads ahead because the robot revolution is rapidly automating all the low-skill jobs.  We are probably at the point where anyone with a sub-85 IQ is unemployable, which includes fully half of all Africans-in-America (and 16% of Whites).  This is only going to get worse as machines get smarter and raise the cutoff point.  This trend will continue until the dumbing-down population becomes unable to build the machines, at which point it all collapses.

    I have a solution to this.  First, restore the right of free association.  Second, pay the low-IQ not to reproduce or expatriate; make things sufficiently miserable if they have babies that they serve as examples to the rest.  If the 'hoods and barrios become rapidly-emptying baby-free zones, that's fine.  If the hollers of W. Virginia do the same, great; those zones have been brain-drained for decades and there probably isn't enough human capital there to do anything.  But no matter how unpalatable it is to you right now, the first thing on the agenda is separation.

    Replies: @iffen, @iffen, @dfordoom

    (((overlords)))

    And you claim to be rational.

  179. @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom


    I don’t think it’s the actual source of the problems and disparities. There are multiple sources of those problems and disparities – political, economic, social, spiritual and cultural.
     
    Every last one of those things is downstream from race.  I'm having trouble finding it, but one S. African pol declared that White farmers wouldn't be missed because they could just get meat from the supermarket.  This is the same cognitive deficiency behind cargo cults:  there is an inability to reason, this inability is strongly correlated with race, and the only realistic conclusion is that it is genetic.  (There's no "fixing" it; the mental heuristic works just fine in the Africans' own environments and societies.  But it is totally wrong for civilization.)

    Note that I say "realistic", not "politically palatable in $CURRENT_YEAR" or "acceptable to our (((overlords))) who want to genocide us anyway".

    I do think that promoting HBD will make the solution of those problems absolutely impossible politically.
     
    You keep using that word.  I don't think it means what you think it means.

    There exists no peaceful, productive society anywhere on this earth where Africans are integrated with others.  Africans have taken over a number of formerly-White cities and turned them into disaster areas, and the same is true of entire countries (Rhodesia).  What would a "solution" to this phenomenon look like?  Waving a magic wand and turning all the Africans into Danes would do, but magic wands all seem to be on back order.  Failing that, the first test your "solution" has to pass is physical possibility.  This is the rock that all the social engineering programs of the last 70 years have foundered on.  It is not physically possible to either educate or bribe Africans to act like White people.

    Whether it’s true or not true HBD is going to be a disaster.
     
    What is more disastrous than the product of the last 3/4 century of radical egalitarian theory?

    The axiom of equality has never led to successful policies because those policies coincided with cultural disintegration and economic evils (such as the destruction of manufacturing industry).
     
    "Just coincided" you say, as if there is not—COULD NOT BE—any causal relationship.

    That causal chain starts with African behavior and goes on to "desegregation" and "anti-discrimination".  Blacks destroyed the auto industry in Detroit and Flint once they were allowed into the UAW.  Workers who once took some pride in a job well done and knew when it wasn't were replaced by Dunning-Kruger exemplars who didn't give a shit.  America responded to the crap coming off the lines by buying Toyotas and Hondas.  The auto industry's response was to close the plants in Flint and Detroit and move to places like Tennessee, which were much whiter.  This was only partially successful as they still had "equal opportunity" hiring mandates, so the next step was to off-shore a lot of manufacturing to places where "anti-discrimination" law did not reach:  "white flight", but for industry.

    You haven't tried to describe a "solution", probably because your vision sounds ridiculous even to you.  Well, you better get moving.  If you think it's bad now, we've got even bumpier roads ahead because the robot revolution is rapidly automating all the low-skill jobs.  We are probably at the point where anyone with a sub-85 IQ is unemployable, which includes fully half of all Africans-in-America (and 16% of Whites).  This is only going to get worse as machines get smarter and raise the cutoff point.  This trend will continue until the dumbing-down population becomes unable to build the machines, at which point it all collapses.

    I have a solution to this.  First, restore the right of free association.  Second, pay the low-IQ not to reproduce or expatriate; make things sufficiently miserable if they have babies that they serve as examples to the rest.  If the 'hoods and barrios become rapidly-emptying baby-free zones, that's fine.  If the hollers of W. Virginia do the same, great; those zones have been brain-drained for decades and there probably isn't enough human capital there to do anything.  But no matter how unpalatable it is to you right now, the first thing on the agenda is separation.

    Replies: @iffen, @iffen, @dfordoom

    Note that I say “realistic”, not “politically palatable in $CURRENT_YEAR” or “acceptable to our (((overlords))) who want to genocide us anyway”.

    You keep using that word genocide. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

    I have a solution to this. First, restore the right of free association. Second, pay the low-IQ not to reproduce or expatriate; make things sufficiently miserable if they have babies that they serve as examples to the rest.

    Now your suggestion is still not quite genocide but it’s much closer to it.

    But no matter how unpalatable it is to you right now, the first thing on the agenda is separation.

    That’s a good idea. Start with something impossible and then work your way up to the hard stuff.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom



    But no matter how unpalatable it is to you right now, the first thing on the agenda is separation.
     
    That’s a good idea. Start with something impossible and then work your way up to the hard stuff.
     
    AYFKM?  This is the EASIEST thing to do.  Whites have been separating from blacks in a host of ways since the first ones hit the dock in Virginia.  All you have to do is stop enforcing "fair housing" and "equal opportunity" and "public accommodation" law.  You don't necessarily have to repeal it as long as it is de facto ignored.

    What word starts with N, ends with R, and is the worst thing you can call a black person?

    Neighbor.

    Whites flee blacks out of self-preservation.  If whites could just keep them out by refusing to sell to them, refusing to serve them, refusing to hire them, etc. that would no longer be necessary.  It would happen organically and almost immediately, and you know it... because that's how things USED to be.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  180. @Audacious Epigone
    @iffen

    At the very least, the explanatory power of biology should have to be positively disproven rather than positively proven. Maybe there are legitimate cases where "disparate impact" has nothing to do with biology, but that's not the way to bet.

    Replies: @iffen, @dfordoom

    At the very least, the explanatory power of biology should have to be positively disproven rather than positively proven.

    So can you explain why any other theory would have to be positively proven, but for some reason HBD is a special case and it doesn’t need to be actually proven?

    Could it be that you’re not really that confident that it can be proven?

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    No other theory needs to be positively proven. And things that are not proven do not need to be rectified.

    If irrational discrimination is the charge, the inability to disprove biological causes is should result in the case being dismissed.

    Human action has all kinds of motivations and drivers. We should accept that we are unable properly understand them and allow people to freely associate.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  181. @iffen
    @Audacious Epigone

    Maybe there are legitimate cases where “disparate impact” has nothing to do with biology, but that’s not the way to bet.

    Disparate impact is taken as evidence that there is discrimination, which is fallacious.

    However, we are prisoners of our past, and there was discrimination in the past, lots of it, and the excuses made then can be interpreted as sounding a lot like arguments deriving from HBD today. That's one of the reasons why I don't get my panties in a complete wad over some of the complaints by minorites. If you understand the past, and you expect equal outcomes, disparate impact is perfectly reasonable.

    Anyway, we should advocate for equality of opportunity and that would be a full time job and keep us out of trouble.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    there was discrimination in the past, lots of it

    And a great deal of it justified.  People from low-trust cultures require extra work being on your guard, people speaking different languages require extra effort to translate, people from clannish societies see nothing wrong with selling out the common good for personal or family gain.  It is entirely right to discriminate against such people if you are not one of them; unless they are working to assimilate they are doing it to you by virtue of being in YOUR country, parasitizing your patrimony.

  182. @iffen
    @Mr. Rational

    There exists no peaceful, productive society anywhere on this earth where Africans are integrated with others.

    ... O ye of little faith ...

    If it was easy and a given, it would be boring. We have to work at it. We've come too far to turn back now.

    Genesis 3:5

    For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    If it was easy and a given, it would be boring. We have to work at it.

    A much wiser man than you or I had some words on that subject a while back.  His name is Rudyard Kipling; perhaps you’ve heard of him?

    We’ve come too far to turn back now.

    We’ve been at this for the better part of a century, in which time we have gone nowhere (and in some cases, backwards).  The African-in-America still commits over half the criminal homicides in the country, still fails in school to the point where we have to have a new educational fad every decade to “close the gap”, and is still an economic basket case.

    If it was going to work, it would have worked by now.  What the last 70 years have settled conclusively is that it wastes your time and annoys the p̶i̶g̶ dindu.

    YOU work on it.  With your own time and money.  I’m done.

  183. @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    Note that I say “realistic”, not “politically palatable in $CURRENT_YEAR” or “acceptable to our (((overlords))) who want to genocide us anyway”.
     
    You keep using that word genocide. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

    I have a solution to this. First, restore the right of free association. Second, pay the low-IQ not to reproduce or expatriate; make things sufficiently miserable if they have babies that they serve as examples to the rest.
     
    Now your suggestion is still not quite genocide but it's much closer to it.

    But no matter how unpalatable it is to you right now, the first thing on the agenda is separation.
     
    That's a good idea. Start with something impossible and then work your way up to the hard stuff.

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    But no matter how unpalatable it is to you right now, the first thing on the agenda is separation.

    That’s a good idea. Start with something impossible and then work your way up to the hard stuff.

    AYFKM?  This is the EASIEST thing to do.  Whites have been separating from blacks in a host of ways since the first ones hit the dock in Virginia.  All you have to do is stop enforcing “fair housing” and “equal opportunity” and “public accommodation” law.  You don’t necessarily have to repeal it as long as it is de facto ignored.

    What word starts with N, ends with R, and is the worst thing you can call a black person?

    Neighbor.

    Whites flee blacks out of self-preservation.  If whites could just keep them out by refusing to sell to them, refusing to serve them, refusing to hire them, etc. that would no longer be necessary.  It would happen organically and almost immediately, and you know it… because that’s how things USED to be.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    If whites could just keep them out by refusing to sell to them, refusing to serve them, refusing to hire them, etc. that would no longer be necessary.
     
    You do realise that's a fantasy don't you?

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

  184. @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    At the very least, the explanatory power of biology should have to be positively disproven rather than positively proven.
     
    So can you explain why any other theory would have to be positively proven, but for some reason HBD is a special case and it doesn't need to be actually proven?

    Could it be that you're not really that confident that it can be proven?

    Replies: @Audacious Epigone

    No other theory needs to be positively proven. And things that are not proven do not need to be rectified.

    If irrational discrimination is the charge, the inability to disprove biological causes is should result in the case being dismissed.

    Human action has all kinds of motivations and drivers. We should accept that we are unable properly understand them and allow people to freely associate.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Audacious Epigone


    If irrational discrimination is the charge, the inability to disprove biological causes is should result in the case being dismissed.
     
    So if I'm charged with discriminating against someone because I believe he's using witchcraft against me then if my demonic explanation can't be disproved then the case against me should be dismissed?

    We should accept that we are unable properly understand them and allow people to freely associate.
     
    You'll have to explain what you mean by freely associate a bit more clearly before I can respond to that.
  185. @Audacious Epigone
    @dfordoom

    No other theory needs to be positively proven. And things that are not proven do not need to be rectified.

    If irrational discrimination is the charge, the inability to disprove biological causes is should result in the case being dismissed.

    Human action has all kinds of motivations and drivers. We should accept that we are unable properly understand them and allow people to freely associate.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    If irrational discrimination is the charge, the inability to disprove biological causes is should result in the case being dismissed.

    So if I’m charged with discriminating against someone because I believe he’s using witchcraft against me then if my demonic explanation can’t be disproved then the case against me should be dismissed?

    We should accept that we are unable properly understand them and allow people to freely associate.

    You’ll have to explain what you mean by freely associate a bit more clearly before I can respond to that.

  186. @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom



    But no matter how unpalatable it is to you right now, the first thing on the agenda is separation.
     
    That’s a good idea. Start with something impossible and then work your way up to the hard stuff.
     
    AYFKM?  This is the EASIEST thing to do.  Whites have been separating from blacks in a host of ways since the first ones hit the dock in Virginia.  All you have to do is stop enforcing "fair housing" and "equal opportunity" and "public accommodation" law.  You don't necessarily have to repeal it as long as it is de facto ignored.

    What word starts with N, ends with R, and is the worst thing you can call a black person?

    Neighbor.

    Whites flee blacks out of self-preservation.  If whites could just keep them out by refusing to sell to them, refusing to serve them, refusing to hire them, etc. that would no longer be necessary.  It would happen organically and almost immediately, and you know it... because that's how things USED to be.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    If whites could just keep them out by refusing to sell to them, refusing to serve them, refusing to hire them, etc. that would no longer be necessary.

    You do realise that’s a fantasy don’t you?

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    @dfordoom

    You'll have to do better than just hand-waving.  You bob and weave and evade like a Jew.  Now go on, address the issue squarely.

  187. @dfordoom
    @Mr. Rational


    If whites could just keep them out by refusing to sell to them, refusing to serve them, refusing to hire them, etc. that would no longer be necessary.
     
    You do realise that's a fantasy don't you?

    Replies: @Mr. Rational

    You’ll have to do better than just hand-waving.  You bob and weave and evade like a Jew.  Now go on, address the issue squarely.

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