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Zmagars: Belarus, Not Belorussia
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Ukrainian svidomy are obsessed with demanding English language speakers say “Kyiv not Kiev” and “Ukraine, not the Ukraine”. They even demand that Russians say “в Украине”, instead of “на Украине”. Amusingly, when even Khodorkovsky of all people – the exiled anti-Putin oligarch who personally traveled and spoke before the crowd at the Euromaidan – suggested that they adopt Russian as their state language before lecturing Russians on their own language, they responded with a collective fit along “we hope Putler locks you up again” lines.

The Belorussian Belarusian zmagar equivalent is Belarus, not Belorussia (Беларусь/Белоруссия). Even though the spelling Belarus (Беларусь) dates from the 1920s, i.e. is a Soviet creation, whereas Belorussia (Белоруссия; orig. Бѣлоруссія) appeared in the 1770s and the Polonic Bel orus (Белорось, orig. Бѣлорусь) entered the Russian lexicon in 1795. Indeed, “Soviet Belorus” was the original name of the republic’s biggest newspaper “Soviet Belorussia“, which became “Belarus Today” after independence. Matt Forney predicts that before too long, the zmagars will start insisting that Anglophones refer to Minsk as Miensk.

I suppose this is inevitable when one has a fragile sense of identity and relatively scant achievements to look back on. You also spend an inordinate amount of time highlighting aspects of your folklore. The Ukrainian vyshyvanka is basically the same thing as the Russian kosovorotka, but Russian politicians (German, Chinese, American, etc.) don’t parade in such garb to signal their patriotism. What’s the point when you have Tchaikovsky and rockets, LOL.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Belarus, Svidomy 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. That’s the trauma of fake and gay “nation”-states.?
    I don’t see Austrians trying to introduce fake words on the south German language in order to drift it away from Germany German.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
    @Aedib

    You got no idea ...
    ca. 1970 there were serious attempts to replace "German" on school report cards with "instruction language" and there still is an official "Austrian Dictionary" for school use :D

    Replies: @Aedib

  3. They can call ’emselves Peepeepoopoostan if they want to, doubly so if they unite with the Ukraine, both are fake and gay, and will be disappeared at some point in the future

  4. This is essentially the problem with countries like Belarus. They are always used to having a “master” tell them what to do. In the past (and even to an extent recently) it was Russia. But the protesters don’t see any hope with Russia and live in the delusion the West will solve all of their problems, hence they are looking for a new boss.

    It’s the same case with Ireland. They got fed up of the old boss England but straight away jumped on the train of the new boss Europe when all was said and done. Despite all of that fierce IRA fight back over the decades, they pretty much surrendered on a whim to the EU.

    During my discussions with Irishmen over the years, 99 percent of them were heavily in favour of the EU, even downright “patriotic” I would say to the new order, despite the new migrants coming in and the ever so depending erosion of national sovereignty. I’ve even spoke to those who sympathise with the IRA over the years and hold mass hatred towards Britain. Yet when I point out England is not the enemy anymore and it is Brussels and it’s dreams of an EU United society, they all go very quiet or just retort with “down with the British”. It is like they are unable to see it or even down right support it.

    I could see Ukraine going the same route if the country is ever fully admitted into the EU (which at the moment seems a distant reality as the people keep voting for it not to take place). As for Belarus, once again, the EU won’t integrate them anytime soon but if the project ever picks up pace there again, make no mistake, Belarus will get absorbed.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Hartnell

    Your analogy breaks down in that Ireland is as wealthy/rich as England is today, if not more so. The same can't be said for Belarus or Ukraine. So even if their anti-UK rhetoric clearly causes much butthurt for you, the reality is that their diss of you didn't hurt them.

    Replies: @Dreadilk, @Yevardian

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Hartnell

    The main problem with your scenario is that the US, UK, and EU elites are doing a lot to impoverish ordinary people in the West by undermining the value of the US dollar (Euro, pound sterling, and Yen will tank along with it). Currently the US is “borrowing” trillions: printing US treasuries, and, as there are no other takers, buying its own debt obligations with printed dollars. This Ponzi scheme will crash at some not so distant point, like all Ponzi schemes before it. The strength of China, Russia, South Korea, and some other countries is that they have real economy producing tangible things, not hot air currently counted as GDP in the US and UK.

    , @Europe Europa
    @Hartnell

    I read that Cork in Ireland used to have a Jewish mayor called Gerald Goldberg, and he used to compare British soldiers in Ireland to pro-Tsar Cossacks in Russia, and presumably implying that Irish republicans are the equivalent of Bolsheviks in his analogy.


    Gerald Goldberg grew up in a Yiddish-speaking Orthodox home. The family were active Irish Republicans, dangerous due to raids by the Black and Tans. His father hung the wedding photo of Prince Edward and Princess Alexandra (later King Edward VII and Queen Alexandra) on the wall, which satisfied a British officer they were loyal to the crown. It was a similar trick they had used in Russia, when hanging photos of the Tsar to avoid harassment by Cossacks.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Goldberg

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

  5. @Hartnell
    This is essentially the problem with countries like Belarus. They are always used to having a "master" tell them what to do. In the past (and even to an extent recently) it was Russia. But the protesters don't see any hope with Russia and live in the delusion the West will solve all of their problems, hence they are looking for a new boss.

    It's the same case with Ireland. They got fed up of the old boss England but straight away jumped on the train of the new boss Europe when all was said and done. Despite all of that fierce IRA fight back over the decades, they pretty much surrendered on a whim to the EU.

    During my discussions with Irishmen over the years, 99 percent of them were heavily in favour of the EU, even downright "patriotic" I would say to the new order, despite the new migrants coming in and the ever so depending erosion of national sovereignty. I've even spoke to those who sympathise with the IRA over the years and hold mass hatred towards Britain. Yet when I point out England is not the enemy anymore and it is Brussels and it's dreams of an EU United society, they all go very quiet or just retort with "down with the British". It is like they are unable to see it or even down right support it.

    I could see Ukraine going the same route if the country is ever fully admitted into the EU (which at the moment seems a distant reality as the people keep voting for it not to take place). As for Belarus, once again, the EU won't integrate them anytime soon but if the project ever picks up pace there again, make no mistake, Belarus will get absorbed.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @AnonFromTN, @Europe Europa

    Your analogy breaks down in that Ireland is as wealthy/rich as England is today, if not more so. The same can’t be said for Belarus or Ukraine. So even if their anti-UK rhetoric clearly causes much butthurt for you, the reality is that their diss of you didn’t hurt them.

    • Replies: @Dreadilk
    @Thulean Friend

    What does their relative wealth level have to do with his points? If anything it's more humiliating for a more wealthy country to beg to be someone's bitch.

    , @Yevardian
    @Thulean Friend

    "It's Irish not Gaelic!!"

    Anyway, much of Ireland's economic success is largely fictive, a product of it being an English-speaking international tax-haven.

  6. The fact that the major two remaining Russian-ethnic countries – Ukraine and Belarus – is slipping out of the orbit of Russia is a big humiliation for Moscow. Ukraine is basically lost at this point. Belarus should still be salvageable, but while the opposition isn’t anti-Russian it isn’t necessarily pro-integration either. The most likely scenario is a new leader which keeps the current status quo, which would go against the integrationist dreams of Russia.

    It’s not about culture. Those are post-hoc explanations/justifications. The issue is that Russia is barely above Mexico in GDPpc. For all the talk of identity and history, most people care more about immediate needs. The West is simply far richer than Russia and will remain so, and so there will be a natural lure in that direction. People who obsess about LGBT nonsense over “kitchen table issues” are a tiny and disconnected minority.

    • Replies: @Christopher Porritt
    @Thulean Friend

    Yes we are richer in the West !! We can print trillions of pounds and dollars to give to our people. We don't have to work for a living !! Nine million people in the UK (25% of the total workforce ? ) are at home being supported by in the British Government's coronavirus income support schemes since March. It is supposed to end by the end of October but will it ? This has cost the government maybe £100 billion and rising. But we are very clever so we can just print the money digitally. Only the stupid Chinese and Russians have to work !! Ukrainians and Belorussians want to get on board this wonderful gravy train.

    , @Dreadilk
    @Thulean Friend

    Relative wealth advantage almost evaporated between the west and upstarts. If comparing like for like the poor in both are at the same level. The middle class maybe has a small advantage in the west. The upper class is the only one where wealth is still obviously more in the west but for how much longer?

    Institutional quality in the west is collapsing fast. Being behind on the vaccine, shit Corona response, crashing navy boats for US, non existent militaries for other NATO members and riots. Do I need to go on? How about dirty ass San Fran and NYC where people are fleeing to the country side.

    Where are the fake and gay countries going? Somewhere where no one is waiting for them.

    , @Svevlad
    @Thulean Friend

    Actually, by 2025 predictions are that Russia will be...

    #5 by GDP (PPP). Pretty much Japan and Russia will switch places

    See for yourself: http://www.deagel.com/country/forecast.aspx?pag=1&sort=PPP&ord=DESC

    , @Swedish Family
    @Thulean Friend


    It’s not about culture. Those are post-hoc explanations/justifications. The issue is that Russia is barely above Mexico in GDPpc. For all the talk of identity and history, most people care more about immediate needs. The West is simply far richer than Russia and will remain so, and so there will be a natural lure in that direction. People who obsess about LGBT nonsense over “kitchen table issues” are a tiny and disconnected minority.
     
    Have to agree with you here. The imagined (medium-term) economic benefits from picking the EU/NATO way over the Russian are by far the great driver of this unrest and Maidan. All else is dwarfed by this.
    , @mal
    @Thulean Friend

    If it is dollars and euros they want, they are in luck. Those will be printed by the $tens of trillions in the very near future. Not that its a bad thing.

    , @Yevardian
    @Thulean Friend


    Belarus should still be salvageable, but while the opposition isn’t anti-Russian it isn’t necessarily pro-integration either. The most likely scenario is a new leader which keeps the current status quo, which would go against the integrationist dreams of Russia.
     
    Doubt.
    If Putin can't react to this in a firm and timely manner soon, he's toast. The shine of Crimea has worn off already, and the potential disaster in irrevocably losing an relatively well-functioning (in contrast to Ukraine) Russian state will lead to him being laballed a failed leader, both to his political colleagues, the Americans and the Russian public.
    , @RadicalCenter
    @Thulean Friend

    Ask the increasing number of Americans who is “obsessing over” i.e. systemstically glorifying sexual deviancy, mental illness, and destruction of normal families rather than “kitchen table issues.” Our rulers, that’s who, while we fall farther behind and struggle.

    , @Hugo Silva
    @Thulean Friend

    I Will have to agree with you, the West is simply a much more attractive model than a kleptocratic Russia or a despotic China, until the West starts collapsing on itself or the non-western countries provide an attractive alternative model the Liberal juggernaut will continue its march across the World!

  7. German_reader says:

    German media (apparently following the lead of the German foreign ministry) have already taken up this in recent weeks, and are now using “Belarus” instead of the traditional Weißrussland (“White Russia”). Reason given for the new usage is explicitly that Weißrussland could lead to the false impression that the sovereign state of Belarus belongs to Russia’s political and national sphere.
    I think this is all very foolish and deeply misguided, but unfortunately most normies don’t understand the risks, and even in right-wing oppositionist media you can read retarded boomer nonsense about how this is like 1989 and that’s it wonderful that a new nation is being born in Belarus and that Lukashenko should be tried in the court at The Hague.

    • LOL: Yevardian
    • Replies: @inertial
    @German_reader

    False impression?

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Russian Unionist
    @German_reader

    And how are they going call someone from Belarus—[ein] Belaruser? Using Belarusse would imply some connection to Russians or Russia, and that would make you a "Russian chauvinist".

    Replies: @German_reader, @German_reader

    , @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    “Belarus” instead of the traditional Weißrussland... born in Belarus and that Lukashenko should be tried in the court at The Hague.
     
    These two are not consistent though, as making everyone - even China* - change to "Belarus", is one of Lukashenko's main external policy achievements. Germans give to Lukashenko victory in this, just as they condemn him.

    -

    But I wonder if there is a false perception in Western media, that Lukashenko is especially anti-nationalist and pro-Russia.

    From listening to interviews with him - few politicians in the world have more personal rusophobia feelings, than Lukashenko. After maybe 20 minutes of polite conversation - he will almost always talk about how honest and traditional people in Belarus, "unlike in Russia",. That children don't cheat in exams, "unlike in Russia". They don't have oligarchs, "unlike in Russia". That his son is hardworking, "unlike politician's children in Russia". Etc, etc. He doesn't even try to hide his feelings usually, especially when he talks to liberal media in Russia.

    Lukashenko also usually tries to exploit some nationalist rhetoric (or rhetoric about positive national stereotypes of Belarus) in his speeches. He is not an anti-nationalist leader.

    On the other hand, because of his governance style, Lukashenko will never be accepted by Europe - and because of this neither America will accept him. In his dreams, Lukashenko would love to be visiting the White House in Washington DC, like Aliyev is allowed to. But I guess even Trump would be embarrassed to be near him.

    To some extent Lukashenko was successful in attracting investment from China, but he is still completely economically dependent on Russia.

    In comparison, Aliyev is somehow acceptable in the West, and was even allowed to host Eurovision Song Contest in 2012.

    Unlike Lukashenko, Aliyev has some benefit of not being European, having the most secular Muslim country, support from Turkey, and a lot of oil.

    -

    *Chinese government agreeing to change how it refers to Belarus in even its Chinese writing. http://china.mfa.gov.by/ru/embassy/news/c7c2ffc0a40ebdf4.html

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    , @Swedish Family
    @German_reader


    German media (apparently following the lead of the German foreign ministry) have already taken up this in recent weeks, and are now using “Belarus” instead of the traditional Weißrussland (“White Russia”). Reason given for the new usage is explicitly that Weißrussland could lead to the false impression that the sovereign state of Belarus belongs to Russia’s political and national sphere.
     
    The Swedish foreign ministry switched its usage in November 2019, with the exact same -- and curiously anti-Russian -- argument. Denmark has done likewise, so I suspect these are the fruits of an Atlantist campaign.
    , @justiana
    @German_reader

    That is reason, why should Russia introduce total economic embargo on BL. Russia supported BL for too long. Let's ask west tax payers. Russia is still relatively poor country. Why should they support other countries?

  8. Is it true that there’s a risque docudrama already in the works?

    Tentative title: “The Night They Raided Minsk”

  9. Ukrainian svidomy are obsessed with demanding English language speakers say “Kyiv not Kiev”

    I can’t be “say” because no English speaker can pronounce “Kyiv”.

  10. @German_reader
    German media (apparently following the lead of the German foreign ministry) have already taken up this in recent weeks, and are now using "Belarus" instead of the traditional Weißrussland ("White Russia"). Reason given for the new usage is explicitly that Weißrussland could lead to the false impression that the sovereign state of Belarus belongs to Russia's political and national sphere.
    I think this is all very foolish and deeply misguided, but unfortunately most normies don't understand the risks, and even in right-wing oppositionist media you can read retarded boomer nonsense about how this is like 1989 and that's it wonderful that a new nation is being born in Belarus and that Lukashenko should be tried in the court at The Hague.

    Replies: @inertial, @Russian Unionist, @Dmitry, @Swedish Family, @justiana

    False impression?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @inertial

    It's the interpretation of Germany's Deutschlandfunk, not mine (I think it's foolish for any outside actors to attempt driving a wedge between Belarus and Russia or to ignore the very close ties between both countries):
    https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/in-eigener-sache-warum-auch-wir-von-belarus-sprechen.2852.de.html?dram:article_id=481918
    "Im Hintergrund steht unter anderem die Frage, ob der Name Weißrussland problematische Assoziationen auslösen könne, im Sinne einer Zugehörigkeit eines eigenständigen Staates zum politischen und nationalen Bereich Russlands."

    They even go so far as to emphasize that it should be "belarusisch" (belarusian) instead of "belarussisch" (belarussian).

  11. Ominous signals.

    https://www.rt.com/news/498219-lukashenko-new-elections-belarus-constitution/

    This is because of Putin suggestion or because of Western extortive pressure?

    • Replies: @Dreadilk
    @Aedib

    He does not look like the type that will bend the knee to the west. If he will bend the knee it will be to Putin. My opinion.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  12. German_reader says:
    @inertial
    @German_reader

    False impression?

    Replies: @German_reader

    It’s the interpretation of Germany’s Deutschlandfunk, not mine (I think it’s foolish for any outside actors to attempt driving a wedge between Belarus and Russia or to ignore the very close ties between both countries):
    https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/in-eigener-sache-warum-auch-wir-von-belarus-sprechen.2852.de.html?dram:article_id=481918
    “Im Hintergrund steht unter anderem die Frage, ob der Name Weißrussland problematische Assoziationen auslösen könne, im Sinne einer Zugehörigkeit eines eigenständigen Staates zum politischen und nationalen Bereich Russlands.”

    They even go so far as to emphasize that it should be “belarusisch” (belarusian) instead of “belarussisch” (belarussian).

  13. What’s the point when you have Tchaikovsky and rockets, LOL.

    Never underestimate the power of a severe inferiority complex. It is the driving force of Polish history for centuries, and of Ukrainian since 1991.

    • Agree: Aedib, Dreadilk, AltanBakshi
    • Troll: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN


    Never underestimate the power of a severe inferiority complex. It is the driving force of Polish history for centuries, and of Ukrainian since 1991.
     
    This is ney impossible when reading anything that you write about Ukraine. Your own inferiority complex stemming from having a "Ukrainian mother" is palpable. The poor thing must be turning in her grave, anytime you write something that is so pitifully condescending about Ukrainians or Ukraine. I doubt that she brought you up to morph into the jaanisaar (or sovok if you prefer) that you've become. You're so pitiful, that soon you'll be writing about how you prefer Russian shchiy to Nenka's delicious red borshch.

    BTW, you never mention the ethnicity of your father? I'd guess that he was either Russian or Jewish, not that it matters, it's obvious that whoever he was he was a sovok, who left a great impression on you, and probably hated anything to do with Ukraine or Ukrainians. .

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN

    I don’t think Poles have an inferiority complex. What makes you think so?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  14. @German_reader
    German media (apparently following the lead of the German foreign ministry) have already taken up this in recent weeks, and are now using "Belarus" instead of the traditional Weißrussland ("White Russia"). Reason given for the new usage is explicitly that Weißrussland could lead to the false impression that the sovereign state of Belarus belongs to Russia's political and national sphere.
    I think this is all very foolish and deeply misguided, but unfortunately most normies don't understand the risks, and even in right-wing oppositionist media you can read retarded boomer nonsense about how this is like 1989 and that's it wonderful that a new nation is being born in Belarus and that Lukashenko should be tried in the court at The Hague.

    Replies: @inertial, @Russian Unionist, @Dmitry, @Swedish Family, @justiana

    And how are they going call someone from Belarus—[ein] Belaruser? Using Belarusse would imply some connection to Russians or Russia, and that would make you a “Russian chauvinist”.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Russian Unionist

    "Belarusen".
    Here's an "expert" on one of Germany's main state propaganda channels:
    https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/weissrussland-bezeichnung-belarus-100.html
    "Deshalb ist es gerade jetzt, wo das Land zum ersten Mal im Zentrum der Weltöffentlichkeit steht, für viele Belarusen schwer erträglich, wenn ihr Land 'Weißrussland' genannt wird. Belarusen sind ja keine Russen. Sie haben ihre eigene Identität."


    ...it's barely tolerable for many Belarusians when their country is called Weißrussland. Belarusians aren't Russians. They've got their own identity.
     
    Anyway, as I wrote in my previous comment, imo this is highly foolish, but there's certainly an attempt in German and other Western media to emphasive the distinctiveness of Belarus from Russia and to establish a "colonized breaking free from the influence of their colonizer" narrative.

    Replies: @Russian Unionist

    , @German_reader
    @Russian Unionist

    [duplicate comment]

    Replies: @utu

  15. @Thulean Friend
    The fact that the major two remaining Russian-ethnic countries - Ukraine and Belarus - is slipping out of the orbit of Russia is a big humiliation for Moscow. Ukraine is basically lost at this point. Belarus should still be salvageable, but while the opposition isn't anti-Russian it isn't necessarily pro-integration either. The most likely scenario is a new leader which keeps the current status quo, which would go against the integrationist dreams of Russia.

    It's not about culture. Those are post-hoc explanations/justifications. The issue is that Russia is barely above Mexico in GDPpc. For all the talk of identity and history, most people care more about immediate needs. The West is simply far richer than Russia and will remain so, and so there will be a natural lure in that direction. People who obsess about LGBT nonsense over "kitchen table issues" are a tiny and disconnected minority.

    Replies: @Christopher Porritt, @Dreadilk, @Svevlad, @Swedish Family, @mal, @Yevardian, @RadicalCenter, @Hugo Silva

    Yes we are richer in the West !! We can print trillions of pounds and dollars to give to our people. We don’t have to work for a living !! Nine million people in the UK (25% of the total workforce ? ) are at home being supported by in the British Government’s coronavirus income support schemes since March. It is supposed to end by the end of October but will it ? This has cost the government maybe £100 billion and rising. But we are very clever so we can just print the money digitally. Only the stupid Chinese and Russians have to work !! Ukrainians and Belorussians want to get on board this wonderful gravy train.

    • Agree: mal, Denis
  16. “What’s the point when you have Tchaikovsky and rockets” – Both Tchaikovsky and phallic hard rockets may come handy when proselytizing Russia’s cause in gay community. Even the soft power of Russia is hard.

    • Replies: @Gerard.Gerard
    @utu


    Both Chaikovsky and phallic hard rockets may come handy when proselytising Russia's cause in the gay community. Even Russia's soft power is hard
     
    That comment could almost win the Internet...... except for the inconvenient fact that in addition to Chaikovsky, Russia has Rakhmaninov, Shostakovich, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Borodin, Glinka, Scriabin, Stravinsky. That is a mass of great, genius composers loved and known throughout the world.

    Poland has?........... LOL..... (insert some mathematical formula of a rapidly expanding black hole)

    Poland has done ZERO contribution to classical music and the entire western culture in the last 500 years. Embarrassingly, small Armenia, which isn't even European, has contributed more to the west than Poland because of the world-renowned composer Khachaturian.
    It's unfortunate that great Armenian Konyak is not sold in the west because if it was, then it would surpass the number of Polish products sold in the west.

    Before you mention (pathetically the only one you can) Chopin, remember that:

    1. He was ethnically French
    2. Only had sex with French women
    3. Composed everything in France (and possibly in Majorca, of course nothing in Poland)
    4. Died in France
    5. Airport in Poland named after him
    probably because its the first place he would have gone to in Poland if they existed at the time
    6. I don't know--did he even speak Polish?
    7. Absolutely nothing derivative from his work in Poland--completely different to the great Russian, German, Hungarian, French, Italian and British composers who influenced or created other respected composers, conductors and musicians who trained directly under them.... because he wasn't Polish--there was nothing of that for Poland
    8.Bizarrely and idiotically Poles tried to claim after-death, of some of Chopin pieces being "Polish style/culture " or "dedicated to Poland" - not because of anything he said or wrote, but based solely on the fact that........ many of his pieces were suicidally sounding faggotry, which Polish nationalists assumed must have been dedicated to them

    I can as reflex action name 25 great Russian writers without a thought entering my brain. Nobody in the world can name any Polish writer

    Our contributions in science and engineering are too much for any blog post. Non-Jewish Polish contributions are....... noneexistant.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Philip Owen, @Agathoklis, @Rich

  17. German_reader says:
    @Russian Unionist
    @German_reader

    And how are they going call someone from Belarus—[ein] Belaruser? Using Belarusse would imply some connection to Russians or Russia, and that would make you a "Russian chauvinist".

    Replies: @German_reader, @German_reader

    “Belarusen”.
    Here’s an “expert” on one of Germany’s main state propaganda channels:
    https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/weissrussland-bezeichnung-belarus-100.html
    “Deshalb ist es gerade jetzt, wo das Land zum ersten Mal im Zentrum der Weltöffentlichkeit steht, für viele Belarusen schwer erträglich, wenn ihr Land ‘Weißrussland’ genannt wird. Belarusen sind ja keine Russen. Sie haben ihre eigene Identität.”

    …it’s barely tolerable for many Belarusians when their country is called Weißrussland. Belarusians aren’t Russians. They’ve got their own identity.

    Anyway, as I wrote in my previous comment, imo this is highly foolish, but there’s certainly an attempt in German and other Western media to emphasive the distinctiveness of Belarus from Russia and to establish a “colonized breaking free from the influence of their colonizer” narrative.

    • Replies: @Russian Unionist
    @German_reader

    "…it’s barely tolerable for many Belarusians when their country is called Weißrussland."

    I'm sure they've interviewed thousands of Belarusians throughout their country to come to this conclusion...

    “Belarusen”

    That doesn't seem grammatically correct. If you are creating a demonym from a placename you usually add the ending -er, i.e., Tirol – der Tiroler, die Tiroler. Thus from Belarus we get der Belaruser, die Belaruser... You can't just simply take an actual word Russe and remove one s.

    Also how is that supposed to be pronounced by a German? Someone without prior knowledge would probably read it as "belar[u:][z]en".

  18. German_reader says:
    @Russian Unionist
    @German_reader

    And how are they going call someone from Belarus—[ein] Belaruser? Using Belarusse would imply some connection to Russians or Russia, and that would make you a "Russian chauvinist".

    Replies: @German_reader, @German_reader

    [duplicate comment]

    • Replies: @utu
    @German_reader

    Actually to avoid confusion completely we could eliminate the term Russia altogether and go back to Muscovy. When the Tsardom of Muscovy was expanding to Belaya Rus for Tsars of Muscovy there was no confusion as Tsars of Muscovy did not claim people living there were some kind of Russians of Muscovy. They called it Belaya Rus (White Ruthenia) not White Muscovy or White Russia.

    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-is-the-origin-of-the-name-belarus.html
    "The Russian Tsars used the phrase "White Rus" when referring to the land they annexed from Lithuania during the seventeenth century."

    Why 'White'? They were 'White' because they were not 'Red' because they were not what now are Ukrainians, i.e., Red or Kievian Rus. Their 'Whitness' came from differentiating themselves from Ukrainians not Russians because they shared the name Rus with what now are Ukrainians. Who gave them the name 'White"? People from the West. Poles and Germans. They exist because of Poles and Germans and for last 350 years Muscovy was trying to undo it and de facto erase their existence by telling Belarusians as well as Ukrainians that you do not exist because you are just confused because you are really Russians. Poles and Germans never told them that the do not exist. Actually Poles and Germans brought them to existence by giving them their name. In the beginning was the Word.

    Replies: @German_reader, @LG, @Dmitry

  19. @German_reader
    German media (apparently following the lead of the German foreign ministry) have already taken up this in recent weeks, and are now using "Belarus" instead of the traditional Weißrussland ("White Russia"). Reason given for the new usage is explicitly that Weißrussland could lead to the false impression that the sovereign state of Belarus belongs to Russia's political and national sphere.
    I think this is all very foolish and deeply misguided, but unfortunately most normies don't understand the risks, and even in right-wing oppositionist media you can read retarded boomer nonsense about how this is like 1989 and that's it wonderful that a new nation is being born in Belarus and that Lukashenko should be tried in the court at The Hague.

    Replies: @inertial, @Russian Unionist, @Dmitry, @Swedish Family, @justiana

    “Belarus” instead of the traditional Weißrussland… born in Belarus and that Lukashenko should be tried in the court at The Hague.

    These two are not consistent though, as making everyone – even China* – change to “Belarus”, is one of Lukashenko’s main external policy achievements. Germans give to Lukashenko victory in this, just as they condemn him.

    But I wonder if there is a false perception in Western media, that Lukashenko is especially anti-nationalist and pro-Russia.

    From listening to interviews with him – few politicians in the world have more personal rusophobia feelings, than Lukashenko. After maybe 20 minutes of polite conversation – he will almost always talk about how honest and traditional people in Belarus, “unlike in Russia”,. That children don’t cheat in exams, “unlike in Russia”. They don’t have oligarchs, “unlike in Russia”. That his son is hardworking, “unlike politician’s children in Russia”. Etc, etc. He doesn’t even try to hide his feelings usually, especially when he talks to liberal media in Russia.

    Lukashenko also usually tries to exploit some nationalist rhetoric (or rhetoric about positive national stereotypes of Belarus) in his speeches. He is not an anti-nationalist leader.

    On the other hand, because of his governance style, Lukashenko will never be accepted by Europe – and because of this neither America will accept him. In his dreams, Lukashenko would love to be visiting the White House in Washington DC, like Aliyev is allowed to. But I guess even Trump would be embarrassed to be near him.

    To some extent Lukashenko was successful in attracting investment from China, but he is still completely economically dependent on Russia.

    In comparison, Aliyev is somehow acceptable in the West, and was even allowed to host Eurovision Song Contest in 2012.

    Unlike Lukashenko, Aliyev has some benefit of not being European, having the most secular Muslim country, support from Turkey, and a lot of oil.

    *Chinese government agreeing to change how it refers to Belarus in even its Chinese writing. http://china.mfa.gov.by/ru/embassy/news/c7c2ffc0a40ebdf4.html

    • Agree: Yevardian
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    *Chinese government agreeing to change how it refers to Belarus in even its Chinese writing. http://china.mfa.gov.by/ru/embassy/news/c7c2ffc0a40ebdf4.html

     

    As far as I can see, those demands from Belarus actually, Chinese government has not conceded to yet. China had just promised to listen to them. I wonder if any Chinese people can say if there has been a concession to the demands from Minsk in how they write the country name in Chinese.

    Although the fact Germany has conceded to changing of the name might be considered more significant in Belarus.

    , @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    On the other hand, because of his governance style, Lukashenko will never be accepted by Europe – and because of this neither America will accept him. In his dreams, Lukashenko would love to be visiting the White House in Washington DC, like Aliyev is allowed to. But I guess even Trump would be embarrassed to be near him.
     
    The difference between rule of law in Bulgaria and non-rule of law in Hungary and Poland is negligible. It is a purely political question.

    From the context of the current protests in Bulgaria, EU leaders are acting embarrassed over the issue while the USA is, true to stereotype, acting like a junkie wanting their next colour revolution fix.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  20. @AnonFromTN

    What’s the point when you have Tchaikovsky and rockets, LOL.
     
    Never underestimate the power of a severe inferiority complex. It is the driving force of Polish history for centuries, and of Ukrainian since 1991.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @reiner Tor

    Never underestimate the power of a severe inferiority complex. It is the driving force of Polish history for centuries, and of Ukrainian since 1991.

    This is ney impossible when reading anything that you write about Ukraine. Your own inferiority complex stemming from having a “Ukrainian mother” is palpable. The poor thing must be turning in her grave, anytime you write something that is so pitifully condescending about Ukrainians or Ukraine. I doubt that she brought you up to morph into the jaanisaar (or sovok if you prefer) that you’ve become. You’re so pitiful, that soon you’ll be writing about how you prefer Russian shchiy to Nenka’s delicious red borshch.

    BTW, you never mention the ethnicity of your father? I’d guess that he was either Russian or Jewish, not that it matters, it’s obvious that whoever he was he was a sovok, who left a great impression on you, and probably hated anything to do with Ukraine or Ukrainians. .

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Ukies desperately try to make people believe that Ukrainian and Ukie is the same thing. Luckily for Ukrainians, it is not. Ukrainian language and culture belong to Ukrainians. Ukies can only lay claim to the scum like Mazepa (most fittingly died of lice bites), Petlyura (his confessed murderer was acquitted by the French jury), and Hitler’s lackeys Bandera, Shukhevych, etc.

    Tell me who are your heroes, and I tell you what you are.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  21. @Thulean Friend
    @Hartnell

    Your analogy breaks down in that Ireland is as wealthy/rich as England is today, if not more so. The same can't be said for Belarus or Ukraine. So even if their anti-UK rhetoric clearly causes much butthurt for you, the reality is that their diss of you didn't hurt them.

    Replies: @Dreadilk, @Yevardian

    What does their relative wealth level have to do with his points? If anything it’s more humiliating for a more wealthy country to beg to be someone’s bitch.

  22. @Aedib
    That’s the trauma of fake and gay “nation”-states.?
    I don’t see Austrians trying to introduce fake words on the south German language in order to drift it away from Germany German.

    Replies: @nokangaroos

    You got no idea …
    ca. 1970 there were serious attempts to replace “German” on school report cards with “instruction language” and there still is an official “Austrian Dictionary” for school use 😀

    • Replies: @Aedib
    @nokangaroos

    I didn’t know. So, Austria is also a fake and gay country. I think Herr Adolf would agree 😀.

  23. @Thulean Friend
    The fact that the major two remaining Russian-ethnic countries - Ukraine and Belarus - is slipping out of the orbit of Russia is a big humiliation for Moscow. Ukraine is basically lost at this point. Belarus should still be salvageable, but while the opposition isn't anti-Russian it isn't necessarily pro-integration either. The most likely scenario is a new leader which keeps the current status quo, which would go against the integrationist dreams of Russia.

    It's not about culture. Those are post-hoc explanations/justifications. The issue is that Russia is barely above Mexico in GDPpc. For all the talk of identity and history, most people care more about immediate needs. The West is simply far richer than Russia and will remain so, and so there will be a natural lure in that direction. People who obsess about LGBT nonsense over "kitchen table issues" are a tiny and disconnected minority.

    Replies: @Christopher Porritt, @Dreadilk, @Svevlad, @Swedish Family, @mal, @Yevardian, @RadicalCenter, @Hugo Silva

    Relative wealth advantage almost evaporated between the west and upstarts. If comparing like for like the poor in both are at the same level. The middle class maybe has a small advantage in the west. The upper class is the only one where wealth is still obviously more in the west but for how much longer?

    Institutional quality in the west is collapsing fast. Being behind on the vaccine, shit Corona response, crashing navy boats for US, non existent militaries for other NATO members and riots. Do I need to go on? How about dirty ass San Fran and NYC where people are fleeing to the country side.

    Where are the fake and gay countries going? Somewhere where no one is waiting for them.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  24. @Aedib
    Ominous signals.

    https://www.rt.com/news/498219-lukashenko-new-elections-belarus-constitution/

    This is because of Putin suggestion or because of Western extortive pressure?

    Replies: @Dreadilk

    He does not look like the type that will bend the knee to the west. If he will bend the knee it will be to Putin. My opinion.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Dreadilk


    If he will bend the knee it will be to Putin.
     
    Luka’s problem is that while it was clear to everyone (except maybe to him) that the West will discard him like a used condom, now most people in Russia do not trust him. Putin might pretend to save him, but if he is as smart as he appeared so far, he is likely to replace Luka with someone more trustworthy soon. This might save Luka’s skin: while “zmagars” would hang him (the only good thing they would ever do), Putin might give him a quiet retirement in Russia on the condition that he relinquishes power to Putin’s chosen person “voluntarily”.
  25. @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    “Belarus” instead of the traditional Weißrussland... born in Belarus and that Lukashenko should be tried in the court at The Hague.
     
    These two are not consistent though, as making everyone - even China* - change to "Belarus", is one of Lukashenko's main external policy achievements. Germans give to Lukashenko victory in this, just as they condemn him.

    -

    But I wonder if there is a false perception in Western media, that Lukashenko is especially anti-nationalist and pro-Russia.

    From listening to interviews with him - few politicians in the world have more personal rusophobia feelings, than Lukashenko. After maybe 20 minutes of polite conversation - he will almost always talk about how honest and traditional people in Belarus, "unlike in Russia",. That children don't cheat in exams, "unlike in Russia". They don't have oligarchs, "unlike in Russia". That his son is hardworking, "unlike politician's children in Russia". Etc, etc. He doesn't even try to hide his feelings usually, especially when he talks to liberal media in Russia.

    Lukashenko also usually tries to exploit some nationalist rhetoric (or rhetoric about positive national stereotypes of Belarus) in his speeches. He is not an anti-nationalist leader.

    On the other hand, because of his governance style, Lukashenko will never be accepted by Europe - and because of this neither America will accept him. In his dreams, Lukashenko would love to be visiting the White House in Washington DC, like Aliyev is allowed to. But I guess even Trump would be embarrassed to be near him.

    To some extent Lukashenko was successful in attracting investment from China, but he is still completely economically dependent on Russia.

    In comparison, Aliyev is somehow acceptable in the West, and was even allowed to host Eurovision Song Contest in 2012.

    Unlike Lukashenko, Aliyev has some benefit of not being European, having the most secular Muslim country, support from Turkey, and a lot of oil.

    -

    *Chinese government agreeing to change how it refers to Belarus in even its Chinese writing. http://china.mfa.gov.by/ru/embassy/news/c7c2ffc0a40ebdf4.html

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    *Chinese government agreeing to change how it refers to Belarus in even its Chinese writing. http://china.mfa.gov.by/ru/embassy/news/c7c2ffc0a40ebdf4.html

    As far as I can see, those demands from Belarus actually, Chinese government has not conceded to yet. China had just promised to listen to them. I wonder if any Chinese people can say if there has been a concession to the demands from Minsk in how they write the country name in Chinese.

    Although the fact Germany has conceded to changing of the name might be considered more significant in Belarus.

  26. Be prepared to draw the new front line a few miles west of Smolensk, if Putin is going to send in the army he would have done it by now.

    • LOL: Dreadilk
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @128

    Why?

  27. The Ukrainian vyshyvanka is basically the same thing as the Russian kosovorotka, but Russian politicians (German, Chinese, American, etc.) don’t parade in such garb to signal their patriotism. What’s the point when you have Tchaikovsky and rockets, LOL.

    Basically the same thing, as in both being men’s shirts? 🙂

    You’re right about how so many nationalities around the world are losing touch with their traditional cultures and dress, perhaps in pursuit of assimilating quicker into being a part of the great new GloboHomo awakening. The gentleman in the photo dressed in the Ukrainian vyshyvanka is a famous Austrian Archduke, who forook his own country’s dress for the Ukrainian vyshyvanka, I’m sure that he knew the difference – can you guess who he was?

    • LOL: Jatt Arya
    • Replies: @LG
    @Mr. Hack

    When Ukrainians can define who they are as a people besides claiming they are 'neither Russians nor Poles' than perhaps they will be taken seriously as a separate ethnos.
    Showing different embroidery on tunics isn't how one separates ethnic groups.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @jonie
    @Mr. Hack

    He is an inbred, though.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  28. @Hartnell
    This is essentially the problem with countries like Belarus. They are always used to having a "master" tell them what to do. In the past (and even to an extent recently) it was Russia. But the protesters don't see any hope with Russia and live in the delusion the West will solve all of their problems, hence they are looking for a new boss.

    It's the same case with Ireland. They got fed up of the old boss England but straight away jumped on the train of the new boss Europe when all was said and done. Despite all of that fierce IRA fight back over the decades, they pretty much surrendered on a whim to the EU.

    During my discussions with Irishmen over the years, 99 percent of them were heavily in favour of the EU, even downright "patriotic" I would say to the new order, despite the new migrants coming in and the ever so depending erosion of national sovereignty. I've even spoke to those who sympathise with the IRA over the years and hold mass hatred towards Britain. Yet when I point out England is not the enemy anymore and it is Brussels and it's dreams of an EU United society, they all go very quiet or just retort with "down with the British". It is like they are unable to see it or even down right support it.

    I could see Ukraine going the same route if the country is ever fully admitted into the EU (which at the moment seems a distant reality as the people keep voting for it not to take place). As for Belarus, once again, the EU won't integrate them anytime soon but if the project ever picks up pace there again, make no mistake, Belarus will get absorbed.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @AnonFromTN, @Europe Europa

    The main problem with your scenario is that the US, UK, and EU elites are doing a lot to impoverish ordinary people in the West by undermining the value of the US dollar (Euro, pound sterling, and Yen will tank along with it). Currently the US is “borrowing” trillions: printing US treasuries, and, as there are no other takers, buying its own debt obligations with printed dollars. This Ponzi scheme will crash at some not so distant point, like all Ponzi schemes before it. The strength of China, Russia, South Korea, and some other countries is that they have real economy producing tangible things, not hot air currently counted as GDP in the US and UK.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  29. @German_reader
    @Russian Unionist

    "Belarusen".
    Here's an "expert" on one of Germany's main state propaganda channels:
    https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/weissrussland-bezeichnung-belarus-100.html
    "Deshalb ist es gerade jetzt, wo das Land zum ersten Mal im Zentrum der Weltöffentlichkeit steht, für viele Belarusen schwer erträglich, wenn ihr Land 'Weißrussland' genannt wird. Belarusen sind ja keine Russen. Sie haben ihre eigene Identität."


    ...it's barely tolerable for many Belarusians when their country is called Weißrussland. Belarusians aren't Russians. They've got their own identity.
     
    Anyway, as I wrote in my previous comment, imo this is highly foolish, but there's certainly an attempt in German and other Western media to emphasive the distinctiveness of Belarus from Russia and to establish a "colonized breaking free from the influence of their colonizer" narrative.

    Replies: @Russian Unionist

    “…it’s barely tolerable for many Belarusians when their country is called Weißrussland.”

    I’m sure they’ve interviewed thousands of Belarusians throughout their country to come to this conclusion…

    “Belarusen”

    That doesn’t seem grammatically correct. If you are creating a demonym from a placename you usually add the ending -er, i.e., Tirol – der Tiroler, die Tiroler. Thus from Belarus we get der Belaruser, die Belaruser… You can’t just simply take an actual word Russe and remove one s.

    Also how is that supposed to be pronounced by a German? Someone without prior knowledge would probably read it as “belar[u:][z]en”.

  30. @Dreadilk
    @Aedib

    He does not look like the type that will bend the knee to the west. If he will bend the knee it will be to Putin. My opinion.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    If he will bend the knee it will be to Putin.

    Luka’s problem is that while it was clear to everyone (except maybe to him) that the West will discard him like a used condom, now most people in Russia do not trust him. Putin might pretend to save him, but if he is as smart as he appeared so far, he is likely to replace Luka with someone more trustworthy soon. This might save Luka’s skin: while “zmagars” would hang him (the only good thing they would ever do), Putin might give him a quiet retirement in Russia on the condition that he relinquishes power to Putin’s chosen person “voluntarily”.

  31. Thanks Jatt, I appreciate your approval! Why don’t you write a reply so I can know exactly what you’re really thinking?

    • LOL: AltanBakshi
  32. @German_reader
    @Russian Unionist

    [duplicate comment]

    Replies: @utu

    Actually to avoid confusion completely we could eliminate the term Russia altogether and go back to Muscovy. When the Tsardom of Muscovy was expanding to Belaya Rus for Tsars of Muscovy there was no confusion as Tsars of Muscovy did not claim people living there were some kind of Russians of Muscovy. They called it Belaya Rus (White Ruthenia) not White Muscovy or White Russia.

    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-is-the-origin-of-the-name-belarus.html
    “The Russian Tsars used the phrase “White Rus” when referring to the land they annexed from Lithuania during the seventeenth century.”

    Why ‘White’? They were ‘White’ because they were not ‘Red’ because they were not what now are Ukrainians, i.e., Red or Kievian Rus. Their ‘Whitness’ came from differentiating themselves from Ukrainians not Russians because they shared the name Rus with what now are Ukrainians. Who gave them the name ‘White”? People from the West. Poles and Germans. They exist because of Poles and Germans and for last 350 years Muscovy was trying to undo it and de facto erase their existence by telling Belarusians as well as Ukrainians that you do not exist because you are just confused because you are really Russians. Poles and Germans never told them that the do not exist. Actually Poles and Germans brought them to existence by giving them their name. In the beginning was the Word.

    • Troll: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @German_reader
    @utu

    I don't really want to get into a lengthy discussion about this; imo it's crazy for outside forces to promote an anti-Russian nationalist narrative in Belarus and incite hopes of EU or NATO integration. This cannot but end badly and lead to a severe Russian reaction, and whatever one thinks about the merits of Belarussian nationhood, it's not worth the dangers to peace in Europe.
    And tbh I don't have much sympathy for naive liberal protesters who dream of joining "the West"; I live in "the West" and it's increasingly a nightmare. AK is quite right about this at least, nobody should join such a failed model just because of greed for consumer goods or vacations.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    , @LG
    @utu

    Ruthenia is Latin for Russia. Belarus is called White Ruthenia because it was north of Kiev(an Rus), and in Old East Slavic the four cardinal directions each aligned with a color. White and north were linked. South was red. East was yellow, and west was black.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @utu, @Philip Owen

    , @Dmitry
    @utu

    You only need one generation (probably less) to create national identity - afterall it is subjective, and can perfectly rely on exaggerated childish mythology and legend, if there is a lack of objective history to support it. In three decades of independence, Belarus have succeeded to create a nationalist generation of young people. (And even non-independent places like Catalonia were able to do this).

    In a generation, you can be arguing as a new country against former compatriots, about who has the ugliest prostitutes or the strongest dogs. But this kind of childish, subjective, mythology, you cannot eat, or ask for a job.

    Belarus is a landlocked, plateau land, mostly dependent for its survival on kindness of neighbours, with no natural defenses - they cannot hide on top of mountains like Swiss or Armenians; and they also have no natural resources. I can only think one similar example - is Paraguay.

    So question is who is going to be their patron, which is more an expensive burden than a desirable prize? Lukashenko is unwillingly and usually ungratefully patronized by the Russian economy. Although he succeeded to attain some significant investments from China, and some investments of Western multinational companies and startups, and some concessions from the EU. But the West is never going to patronize him, or would even want to replace the importance of Russia in supporting Belarus economy while he is leader.

    If Lukashenko's government collapses, then it's possible a new government would emerge which would match the protesters' desires, and will try to re-orient to receiving patronage from EU. But this is not exactly an easy and fast process. And for Europe to replace for Belarus, the massive economic support and subsidization they receive from Russia, would require significant transformation of their economy, loss revenue, and perhaps quite change in the local elite and their businesses.

    Replies: @Agathoklis, @utu

  33. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN


    Never underestimate the power of a severe inferiority complex. It is the driving force of Polish history for centuries, and of Ukrainian since 1991.
     
    This is ney impossible when reading anything that you write about Ukraine. Your own inferiority complex stemming from having a "Ukrainian mother" is palpable. The poor thing must be turning in her grave, anytime you write something that is so pitifully condescending about Ukrainians or Ukraine. I doubt that she brought you up to morph into the jaanisaar (or sovok if you prefer) that you've become. You're so pitiful, that soon you'll be writing about how you prefer Russian shchiy to Nenka's delicious red borshch.

    BTW, you never mention the ethnicity of your father? I'd guess that he was either Russian or Jewish, not that it matters, it's obvious that whoever he was he was a sovok, who left a great impression on you, and probably hated anything to do with Ukraine or Ukrainians. .

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Ukies desperately try to make people believe that Ukrainian and Ukie is the same thing. Luckily for Ukrainians, it is not. Ukrainian language and culture belong to Ukrainians. Ukies can only lay claim to the scum like Mazepa (most fittingly died of lice bites), Petlyura (his confessed murderer was acquitted by the French jury), and Hitler’s lackeys Bandera, Shukhevych, etc.

    Tell me who are your heroes, and I tell you what you are.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    I never even brought up the topic of "Ukie" that you can't seem to get out of your Ukrainaphobic mind.

    Was Mazepa a "Ukie" as far as you're concerned? How about Shevchenko or Hrushevsky, were they Ukies too?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  34. @Thulean Friend
    The fact that the major two remaining Russian-ethnic countries - Ukraine and Belarus - is slipping out of the orbit of Russia is a big humiliation for Moscow. Ukraine is basically lost at this point. Belarus should still be salvageable, but while the opposition isn't anti-Russian it isn't necessarily pro-integration either. The most likely scenario is a new leader which keeps the current status quo, which would go against the integrationist dreams of Russia.

    It's not about culture. Those are post-hoc explanations/justifications. The issue is that Russia is barely above Mexico in GDPpc. For all the talk of identity and history, most people care more about immediate needs. The West is simply far richer than Russia and will remain so, and so there will be a natural lure in that direction. People who obsess about LGBT nonsense over "kitchen table issues" are a tiny and disconnected minority.

    Replies: @Christopher Porritt, @Dreadilk, @Svevlad, @Swedish Family, @mal, @Yevardian, @RadicalCenter, @Hugo Silva

    Actually, by 2025 predictions are that Russia will be…

    #5 by GDP (PPP). Pretty much Japan and Russia will switch places

    See for yourself: http://www.deagel.com/country/forecast.aspx?pag=1&sort=PPP&ord=DESC

  35. @Mr. Hack

    The Ukrainian vyshyvanka is basically the same thing as the Russian kosovorotka, but Russian politicians (German, Chinese, American, etc.) don’t parade in such garb to signal their patriotism. What’s the point when you have Tchaikovsky and rockets, LOL.
     
    Basically the same thing, as in both being men's shirts? :-)

    https://russiapedia.rt.com/files/of-russian-origin/kosovorotka/kosovorotka_2-t.jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Vyshyvanyi_01.jpg/220px-Vyshyvanyi_01.jpg

    You're right about how so many nationalities around the world are losing touch with their traditional cultures and dress, perhaps in pursuit of assimilating quicker into being a part of the great new GloboHomo awakening. The gentleman in the photo dressed in the Ukrainian vyshyvanka is a famous Austrian Archduke, who forook his own country's dress for the Ukrainian vyshyvanka, I'm sure that he knew the difference - can you guess who he was?

    Replies: @LG, @jonie

    When Ukrainians can define who they are as a people besides claiming they are ‘neither Russians nor Poles’ than perhaps they will be taken seriously as a separate ethnos.
    Showing different embroidery on tunics isn’t how one separates ethnic groups.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @LG

    You can be sure that Michael Hruhevsky, Ukraine's most prolific historian never based any of his 10 volume Magnum Opus on anything so silly as what you suggest. You can begin your quest to find out more about the unique history and culture of the Ukrainian people by starting a collection of this incredible highly respected piece of intellectual history by purchasing the first volume from CIUS. At $120 per volume you might find this to be a slightly expensive hobby, but one well worth the expense:

    https://ciuspress.com/product-category/history/?filter_book-author=mykhailo-hrushevsky&v=7516fd43adaa

    https://ciuspress.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Hrushevsky-History-of-Ukraine-5-2019-820x1159.jpg

  36. German_reader says:
    @utu
    @German_reader

    Actually to avoid confusion completely we could eliminate the term Russia altogether and go back to Muscovy. When the Tsardom of Muscovy was expanding to Belaya Rus for Tsars of Muscovy there was no confusion as Tsars of Muscovy did not claim people living there were some kind of Russians of Muscovy. They called it Belaya Rus (White Ruthenia) not White Muscovy or White Russia.

    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-is-the-origin-of-the-name-belarus.html
    "The Russian Tsars used the phrase "White Rus" when referring to the land they annexed from Lithuania during the seventeenth century."

    Why 'White'? They were 'White' because they were not 'Red' because they were not what now are Ukrainians, i.e., Red or Kievian Rus. Their 'Whitness' came from differentiating themselves from Ukrainians not Russians because they shared the name Rus with what now are Ukrainians. Who gave them the name 'White"? People from the West. Poles and Germans. They exist because of Poles and Germans and for last 350 years Muscovy was trying to undo it and de facto erase their existence by telling Belarusians as well as Ukrainians that you do not exist because you are just confused because you are really Russians. Poles and Germans never told them that the do not exist. Actually Poles and Germans brought them to existence by giving them their name. In the beginning was the Word.

    Replies: @German_reader, @LG, @Dmitry

    I don’t really want to get into a lengthy discussion about this; imo it’s crazy for outside forces to promote an anti-Russian nationalist narrative in Belarus and incite hopes of EU or NATO integration. This cannot but end badly and lead to a severe Russian reaction, and whatever one thinks about the merits of Belarussian nationhood, it’s not worth the dangers to peace in Europe.
    And tbh I don’t have much sympathy for naive liberal protesters who dream of joining “the West”; I live in “the West” and it’s increasingly a nightmare. AK is quite right about this at least, nobody should join such a failed model just because of greed for consumer goods or vacations.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @German_reader

    It's not just the Belarusians who want "in" with the West but also a large segment of the Russian population as well. I was speaking to a Russian friend of mine just today about what all of these protests are about and he pretty much confirmed that it is all about becoming "like the West."

    He told me that what all of these protestors want is basically what other Europeans have had. The freedom to travel. The freedom to visit other countries without any visas. The freedom to study wherever they want. Plus a nice sum of EU money to boot.

    I asked "but what about patriotism and standing up to the U.S?". He confirmed to me the masses of these people really do not care about that. "We've been in a new cold war with the West but compared to the Soviet times, the culture war has been pretty much won. After Putin is going to lead to demands for greater liberalism. It's inevitable."

    I pushed him on mass immigration. He responded with "once again they do not care. The nationalists in Russia and elsewhere do but the masses are unconcerned with it. It's all about me, me, me. They think it cannot happen here."

    So it's looking like the West through TV, propaganda, music etc has pretty much won this round.

    Replies: @justiana, @anonymous coward, @128

  37. @nokangaroos
    @Aedib

    You got no idea ...
    ca. 1970 there were serious attempts to replace "German" on school report cards with "instruction language" and there still is an official "Austrian Dictionary" for school use :D

    Replies: @Aedib

    I didn’t know. So, Austria is also a fake and gay country. I think Herr Adolf would agree 😀.

  38. To help promote the further mongrelisation of European languages, the francophone department of the Belgian foreign ministry has decided to refer to it as “Belarus”, not even as “Bélarus”. This is like spelling “Amerika” in English.

    https://diplomatie.belgium.be/fr/Services/voyager_a_letranger/conseils_par_destination/belarus

    https://www.rtbf.be/info/monde/detail_bielorussie-belarus-ou-belarus-on-vous-explique-les-differences?id=10561077

  39. @utu
    @German_reader

    Actually to avoid confusion completely we could eliminate the term Russia altogether and go back to Muscovy. When the Tsardom of Muscovy was expanding to Belaya Rus for Tsars of Muscovy there was no confusion as Tsars of Muscovy did not claim people living there were some kind of Russians of Muscovy. They called it Belaya Rus (White Ruthenia) not White Muscovy or White Russia.

    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-is-the-origin-of-the-name-belarus.html
    "The Russian Tsars used the phrase "White Rus" when referring to the land they annexed from Lithuania during the seventeenth century."

    Why 'White'? They were 'White' because they were not 'Red' because they were not what now are Ukrainians, i.e., Red or Kievian Rus. Their 'Whitness' came from differentiating themselves from Ukrainians not Russians because they shared the name Rus with what now are Ukrainians. Who gave them the name 'White"? People from the West. Poles and Germans. They exist because of Poles and Germans and for last 350 years Muscovy was trying to undo it and de facto erase their existence by telling Belarusians as well as Ukrainians that you do not exist because you are just confused because you are really Russians. Poles and Germans never told them that the do not exist. Actually Poles and Germans brought them to existence by giving them their name. In the beginning was the Word.

    Replies: @German_reader, @LG, @Dmitry

    Ruthenia is Latin for Russia. Belarus is called White Ruthenia because it was north of Kiev(an Rus), and in Old East Slavic the four cardinal directions each aligned with a color. White and north were linked. South was red. East was yellow, and west was black.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @LG

    Almost correct.

    You switched the colors around. White is west, black is north, south is red and east is green. I think this scheme originally comes from China via various Turkic people.

    So yes, 'Belarus' is simply 'western Russia'.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    , @utu
    @LG

    "East was yellow". - Are you saying that Russia is Yellow Rus? Like Asiatic?

    , @Philip Owen
    @LG

    I came across that as a Mongol view of direction with a 5th point of the compass, like the Irish, being Here. "Here" is gold in colour in the Mongol version. West was White in Mongol, hence White Russia for those Rus peoples they hadn't conquered.

  40. • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Korenchkin

    It looks like the two are getting ready to go to a meeting of their mutual Masonic lodge. And who says that Russia will remain free of GloboHomoism? :-)

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

  41. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Ukies desperately try to make people believe that Ukrainian and Ukie is the same thing. Luckily for Ukrainians, it is not. Ukrainian language and culture belong to Ukrainians. Ukies can only lay claim to the scum like Mazepa (most fittingly died of lice bites), Petlyura (his confessed murderer was acquitted by the French jury), and Hitler’s lackeys Bandera, Shukhevych, etc.

    Tell me who are your heroes, and I tell you what you are.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I never even brought up the topic of “Ukie” that you can’t seem to get out of your Ukrainaphobic mind.

    Was Mazepa a “Ukie” as far as you’re concerned? How about Shevchenko or Hrushevsky, were they Ukies too?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Shevchenko was a second-rate poet and third-rate writer (BTW, hew wrote his prose in Russian), but not a Ukie. It’s enough to remember his "Заповiт":
    Як умру, то поховайте
    Мене у могилi
    Серед степу широкого,
    На Вкраїнi милiй.
    A Ukie would not use preposition “на", s/he would use "в".
    Hrushevsky was a lowly weaselly scum. That’s why he prospered under Stalin.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  42. @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    “Belarus” instead of the traditional Weißrussland... born in Belarus and that Lukashenko should be tried in the court at The Hague.
     
    These two are not consistent though, as making everyone - even China* - change to "Belarus", is one of Lukashenko's main external policy achievements. Germans give to Lukashenko victory in this, just as they condemn him.

    -

    But I wonder if there is a false perception in Western media, that Lukashenko is especially anti-nationalist and pro-Russia.

    From listening to interviews with him - few politicians in the world have more personal rusophobia feelings, than Lukashenko. After maybe 20 minutes of polite conversation - he will almost always talk about how honest and traditional people in Belarus, "unlike in Russia",. That children don't cheat in exams, "unlike in Russia". They don't have oligarchs, "unlike in Russia". That his son is hardworking, "unlike politician's children in Russia". Etc, etc. He doesn't even try to hide his feelings usually, especially when he talks to liberal media in Russia.

    Lukashenko also usually tries to exploit some nationalist rhetoric (or rhetoric about positive national stereotypes of Belarus) in his speeches. He is not an anti-nationalist leader.

    On the other hand, because of his governance style, Lukashenko will never be accepted by Europe - and because of this neither America will accept him. In his dreams, Lukashenko would love to be visiting the White House in Washington DC, like Aliyev is allowed to. But I guess even Trump would be embarrassed to be near him.

    To some extent Lukashenko was successful in attracting investment from China, but he is still completely economically dependent on Russia.

    In comparison, Aliyev is somehow acceptable in the West, and was even allowed to host Eurovision Song Contest in 2012.

    Unlike Lukashenko, Aliyev has some benefit of not being European, having the most secular Muslim country, support from Turkey, and a lot of oil.

    -

    *Chinese government agreeing to change how it refers to Belarus in even its Chinese writing. http://china.mfa.gov.by/ru/embassy/news/c7c2ffc0a40ebdf4.html

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hyperborean

    On the other hand, because of his governance style, Lukashenko will never be accepted by Europe – and because of this neither America will accept him. In his dreams, Lukashenko would love to be visiting the White House in Washington DC, like Aliyev is allowed to. But I guess even Trump would be embarrassed to be near him.

    The difference between rule of law in Bulgaria and non-rule of law in Hungary and Poland is negligible. It is a purely political question.

    From the context of the current protests in Bulgaria, EU leaders are acting embarrassed over the issue while the USA is, true to stereotype, acting like a junkie wanting their next colour revolution fix.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Over years, Lukashenko had been trying to become friendly with America, but America is generally conditioning improving relations with Lukashenko on internal "democratic reforms" in Belarus, and sanctioning Belarus as they do not.

    On the other hand, America is more relaxed and happy to support Aliyev, and even they are not embarrassed to invite Nazarbayev to White House, without such level of demands they give to Belarus.

    In all cases, these leaders try to be friendly with America, but America has stricter criteria for Lukashenko, than for Aliyev.

    Part of the problem is that Lukashenko is in the centre of Europe, and his governance and self-presentation style was too much of contradiction to the self-image of enlightened Europe, which he never tried to disguise - he even has hobby of talking unashamedly about capital punishment and censorship, as part of his "alpha male buffoon" persona.

    Enlightened Europeans are ashamed to accept Lukashenko in their circle, and this is perhaps why his attempts to build relations with America were all conditioned on internal "democratic reforms", while for autocratic leaders in Central Asia or Caucasia this demand is not, or at least ignored temporarily in the geopolitical conflict with Russia, or desire to extend America influence into these areas.

    At least, Lukashenko's youngest son and supposed future heir, will be more presentable for Western audiences, if the father's government can survive long enough for him to inherit anything. Probably the best diplomatic strategy would be to send his son to tour America, try to date Kylie Jenner, or interview on the Ellen show, etc. Probably Kanye could arrange a meeting with Trump - and there is might be the most plausible route for Lukashenko to visit the White House.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  43. Belarus or Belorussia, these Belarusian nationalists cannot take the ‘Rus’ out of both names, and thus evidence of their descent from the Rus’ state, as Russia is also.

    One thing I cannot understand is why nationalists, be they Scottish nationalists, Polish nationalists, Ukrainian nationalists and now Belarusian nationalists, support and are enthusiastic for EU membership. Perhaps the material and economic benefits as well as prestige that comes with EU membership is a factor but surely they know that EU policies of multiculturalism are antithetical to their nationalist proclivities?

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  44. @German_reader
    German media (apparently following the lead of the German foreign ministry) have already taken up this in recent weeks, and are now using "Belarus" instead of the traditional Weißrussland ("White Russia"). Reason given for the new usage is explicitly that Weißrussland could lead to the false impression that the sovereign state of Belarus belongs to Russia's political and national sphere.
    I think this is all very foolish and deeply misguided, but unfortunately most normies don't understand the risks, and even in right-wing oppositionist media you can read retarded boomer nonsense about how this is like 1989 and that's it wonderful that a new nation is being born in Belarus and that Lukashenko should be tried in the court at The Hague.

    Replies: @inertial, @Russian Unionist, @Dmitry, @Swedish Family, @justiana

    German media (apparently following the lead of the German foreign ministry) have already taken up this in recent weeks, and are now using “Belarus” instead of the traditional Weißrussland (“White Russia”). Reason given for the new usage is explicitly that Weißrussland could lead to the false impression that the sovereign state of Belarus belongs to Russia’s political and national sphere.

    The Swedish foreign ministry switched its usage in November 2019, with the exact same — and curiously anti-Russian — argument. Denmark has done likewise, so I suspect these are the fruits of an Atlantist campaign.

  45. @Thulean Friend
    The fact that the major two remaining Russian-ethnic countries - Ukraine and Belarus - is slipping out of the orbit of Russia is a big humiliation for Moscow. Ukraine is basically lost at this point. Belarus should still be salvageable, but while the opposition isn't anti-Russian it isn't necessarily pro-integration either. The most likely scenario is a new leader which keeps the current status quo, which would go against the integrationist dreams of Russia.

    It's not about culture. Those are post-hoc explanations/justifications. The issue is that Russia is barely above Mexico in GDPpc. For all the talk of identity and history, most people care more about immediate needs. The West is simply far richer than Russia and will remain so, and so there will be a natural lure in that direction. People who obsess about LGBT nonsense over "kitchen table issues" are a tiny and disconnected minority.

    Replies: @Christopher Porritt, @Dreadilk, @Svevlad, @Swedish Family, @mal, @Yevardian, @RadicalCenter, @Hugo Silva

    It’s not about culture. Those are post-hoc explanations/justifications. The issue is that Russia is barely above Mexico in GDPpc. For all the talk of identity and history, most people care more about immediate needs. The West is simply far richer than Russia and will remain so, and so there will be a natural lure in that direction. People who obsess about LGBT nonsense over “kitchen table issues” are a tiny and disconnected minority.

    Have to agree with you here. The imagined (medium-term) economic benefits from picking the EU/NATO way over the Russian are by far the great driver of this unrest and Maidan. All else is dwarfed by this.

  46. @LG
    @Mr. Hack

    When Ukrainians can define who they are as a people besides claiming they are 'neither Russians nor Poles' than perhaps they will be taken seriously as a separate ethnos.
    Showing different embroidery on tunics isn't how one separates ethnic groups.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    You can be sure that Michael Hruhevsky, Ukraine’s most prolific historian never based any of his 10 volume Magnum Opus on anything so silly as what you suggest. You can begin your quest to find out more about the unique history and culture of the Ukrainian people by starting a collection of this incredible highly respected piece of intellectual history by purchasing the first volume from CIUS. At $120 per volume you might find this to be a slightly expensive hobby, but one well worth the expense:

    https://ciuspress.com/product-category/history/?filter_book-author=mykhailo-hrushevsky&v=7516fd43adaa

  47. People living in Belarus will be called Belaruses, not “Belarussians”, right?
    Notice how it rhymes nicely with “walruses”.
    This may come in handy in future folk songs.

  48. @Korenchkin
    Nothing wrong with some trad-dress LARPing

    https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/photo-taken-aug-4-shows-shinzo-abe-chatting-with-instructors-who-picture-id947266978

    https://akm-img-a-in.tosshub.com/indiatoday/styles/photo_slider_753x543/public/images/photogallery/201405/narendra-modi_5_051314121619.jpg?Qnj17nQuIvsibYQpj1OVBlh.m_S0Wxhm

    https://i.redd.it/v7mtmur1mr2x.jpg

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    It looks like the two are getting ready to go to a meeting of their mutual Masonic lodge. And who says that Russia will remain free of GloboHomoism? 🙂

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    @Mr. Hack

    If you’re chortling about the prospect of perverting and confusing Russian children the way “our” government / media / corporate / “school” establishment does here in the usa ... well, that says more about you than about Russians.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  49. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    I never even brought up the topic of "Ukie" that you can't seem to get out of your Ukrainaphobic mind.

    Was Mazepa a "Ukie" as far as you're concerned? How about Shevchenko or Hrushevsky, were they Ukies too?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Shevchenko was a second-rate poet and third-rate writer (BTW, hew wrote his prose in Russian), but not a Ukie. It’s enough to remember his “Заповiт”:
    Як умру, то поховайте
    Мене у могилi
    Серед степу широкого,
    На Вкраїнi милiй.
    A Ukie would not use preposition “на”, s/he would use “в”.
    Hrushevsky was a lowly weaselly scum. That’s why he prospered under Stalin.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN


    На Вкраїнi милiй
     
    At the time that Shevchenko wrote this poem, Ukraine was not a separate country but a colony of Russia's, like the Caucuses, the Urals. Regardless, his wish came true and his countrymen built a prominent resting place for their great Bard on the Dniepro river, overlooking the Ukrainian steppe:

    https://discover-ukraine.info/uploads/i/i/4f3659cfee1228.44610832.219.jpg

    How about yourself, you seem to be getting on in age, any thoughts about your own legacy? Hopefully something grander than that small plot within the cemetery behind the KFC in downtown Memphis?

    As for Hrushevsky, he "prospered under Stalin so well" that his body was never even located after Stalin's agents of death finally silenced him, somewhere in Siberia. Ukrainians never forgot about this great countryman either:

    https://h450v.alamy.com/450v/mb4392/monument-to-ukrainian-politician-and-historian-mykhailo-hrushevsky-in-lviv-ukraine-mykhailo-hrushevsky-was-elected-head-of-the-revolutionary-parliam-mb4392.jpg

    Replies: @for-the-record

  50. @German_reader
    @utu

    I don't really want to get into a lengthy discussion about this; imo it's crazy for outside forces to promote an anti-Russian nationalist narrative in Belarus and incite hopes of EU or NATO integration. This cannot but end badly and lead to a severe Russian reaction, and whatever one thinks about the merits of Belarussian nationhood, it's not worth the dangers to peace in Europe.
    And tbh I don't have much sympathy for naive liberal protesters who dream of joining "the West"; I live in "the West" and it's increasingly a nightmare. AK is quite right about this at least, nobody should join such a failed model just because of greed for consumer goods or vacations.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    It’s not just the Belarusians who want “in” with the West but also a large segment of the Russian population as well. I was speaking to a Russian friend of mine just today about what all of these protests are about and he pretty much confirmed that it is all about becoming “like the West.”

    He told me that what all of these protestors want is basically what other Europeans have had. The freedom to travel. The freedom to visit other countries without any visas. The freedom to study wherever they want. Plus a nice sum of EU money to boot.

    I asked “but what about patriotism and standing up to the U.S?”. He confirmed to me the masses of these people really do not care about that. “We’ve been in a new cold war with the West but compared to the Soviet times, the culture war has been pretty much won. After Putin is going to lead to demands for greater liberalism. It’s inevitable.”

    I pushed him on mass immigration. He responded with “once again they do not care. The nationalists in Russia and elsewhere do but the masses are unconcerned with it. It’s all about me, me, me. They think it cannot happen here.”

    So it’s looking like the West through TV, propaganda, music etc has pretty much won this round.

    • Replies: @justiana
    @Hartnell

    West win in short run. China in long run.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    , @anonymous coward
    @Hartnell


    Plus a nice sum of EU money to boot.
     
    I do too. Where da gibs at, honkey?
    , @128
    @Hartnell

    Any other solutions other than North Korea?

    Replies: @Hartnell

  51. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Shevchenko was a second-rate poet and third-rate writer (BTW, hew wrote his prose in Russian), but not a Ukie. It’s enough to remember his "Заповiт":
    Як умру, то поховайте
    Мене у могилi
    Серед степу широкого,
    На Вкраїнi милiй.
    A Ukie would not use preposition “на", s/he would use "в".
    Hrushevsky was a lowly weaselly scum. That’s why he prospered under Stalin.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    На Вкраїнi милiй

    At the time that Shevchenko wrote this poem, Ukraine was not a separate country but a colony of Russia’s, like the Caucuses, the Urals. Regardless, his wish came true and his countrymen built a prominent resting place for their great Bard on the Dniepro river, overlooking the Ukrainian steppe:

    How about yourself, you seem to be getting on in age, any thoughts about your own legacy? Hopefully something grander than that small plot within the cemetery behind the KFC in downtown Memphis?

    As for Hrushevsky, he “prospered under Stalin so well” that his body was never even located after Stalin’s agents of death finally silenced him, somewhere in Siberia. Ukrainians never forgot about this great countryman either:

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    @Mr. Hack

    As for Hrushevsky, he “prospered under Stalin so well” that his body was never even located after Stalin’s agents of death finally silenced him, somewhere in Siberia.

    Siberia? I thought Kislovodsk (where he died on 24 November 1934) was somewhere in the Caucusus.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  52. @German_reader
    German media (apparently following the lead of the German foreign ministry) have already taken up this in recent weeks, and are now using "Belarus" instead of the traditional Weißrussland ("White Russia"). Reason given for the new usage is explicitly that Weißrussland could lead to the false impression that the sovereign state of Belarus belongs to Russia's political and national sphere.
    I think this is all very foolish and deeply misguided, but unfortunately most normies don't understand the risks, and even in right-wing oppositionist media you can read retarded boomer nonsense about how this is like 1989 and that's it wonderful that a new nation is being born in Belarus and that Lukashenko should be tried in the court at The Hague.

    Replies: @inertial, @Russian Unionist, @Dmitry, @Swedish Family, @justiana

    That is reason, why should Russia introduce total economic embargo on BL. Russia supported BL for too long. Let’s ask west tax payers. Russia is still relatively poor country. Why should they support other countries?

  53. @Hartnell
    @German_reader

    It's not just the Belarusians who want "in" with the West but also a large segment of the Russian population as well. I was speaking to a Russian friend of mine just today about what all of these protests are about and he pretty much confirmed that it is all about becoming "like the West."

    He told me that what all of these protestors want is basically what other Europeans have had. The freedom to travel. The freedom to visit other countries without any visas. The freedom to study wherever they want. Plus a nice sum of EU money to boot.

    I asked "but what about patriotism and standing up to the U.S?". He confirmed to me the masses of these people really do not care about that. "We've been in a new cold war with the West but compared to the Soviet times, the culture war has been pretty much won. After Putin is going to lead to demands for greater liberalism. It's inevitable."

    I pushed him on mass immigration. He responded with "once again they do not care. The nationalists in Russia and elsewhere do but the masses are unconcerned with it. It's all about me, me, me. They think it cannot happen here."

    So it's looking like the West through TV, propaganda, music etc has pretty much won this round.

    Replies: @justiana, @anonymous coward, @128

    West win in short run. China in long run.

    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @justiana

    Depends ultimately on the youth in China. If they decide to go democratic and liberal (this usually happens when wealth levels go up), then ultimately we are facing liberalism on a global scale and nothing can be done to stop the beast. If, on the other hand, the Chinese remain as patriotic and nationalistic as ever, then we could see more of a twist in world affairs down the pipeline.

  54. @LG
    @utu

    Ruthenia is Latin for Russia. Belarus is called White Ruthenia because it was north of Kiev(an Rus), and in Old East Slavic the four cardinal directions each aligned with a color. White and north were linked. South was red. East was yellow, and west was black.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @utu, @Philip Owen

    Almost correct.

    You switched the colors around. White is west, black is north, south is red and east is green. I think this scheme originally comes from China via various Turkic people.

    So yes, ‘Belarus’ is simply ‘western Russia’.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @anonymous coward

    P.S. It's also why the Black Sea is black - it's to the north of Anatolia. (Like I said, the Turkic scheme is the same and seems to ultimately come from China.)

  55. @Hartnell
    @German_reader

    It's not just the Belarusians who want "in" with the West but also a large segment of the Russian population as well. I was speaking to a Russian friend of mine just today about what all of these protests are about and he pretty much confirmed that it is all about becoming "like the West."

    He told me that what all of these protestors want is basically what other Europeans have had. The freedom to travel. The freedom to visit other countries without any visas. The freedom to study wherever they want. Plus a nice sum of EU money to boot.

    I asked "but what about patriotism and standing up to the U.S?". He confirmed to me the masses of these people really do not care about that. "We've been in a new cold war with the West but compared to the Soviet times, the culture war has been pretty much won. After Putin is going to lead to demands for greater liberalism. It's inevitable."

    I pushed him on mass immigration. He responded with "once again they do not care. The nationalists in Russia and elsewhere do but the masses are unconcerned with it. It's all about me, me, me. They think it cannot happen here."

    So it's looking like the West through TV, propaganda, music etc has pretty much won this round.

    Replies: @justiana, @anonymous coward, @128

    Plus a nice sum of EU money to boot.

    I do too. Where da gibs at, honkey?

  56. @anonymous coward
    @LG

    Almost correct.

    You switched the colors around. White is west, black is north, south is red and east is green. I think this scheme originally comes from China via various Turkic people.

    So yes, 'Belarus' is simply 'western Russia'.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    P.S. It’s also why the Black Sea is black – it’s to the north of Anatolia. (Like I said, the Turkic scheme is the same and seems to ultimately come from China.)

  57. @Hartnell
    @German_reader

    It's not just the Belarusians who want "in" with the West but also a large segment of the Russian population as well. I was speaking to a Russian friend of mine just today about what all of these protests are about and he pretty much confirmed that it is all about becoming "like the West."

    He told me that what all of these protestors want is basically what other Europeans have had. The freedom to travel. The freedom to visit other countries without any visas. The freedom to study wherever they want. Plus a nice sum of EU money to boot.

    I asked "but what about patriotism and standing up to the U.S?". He confirmed to me the masses of these people really do not care about that. "We've been in a new cold war with the West but compared to the Soviet times, the culture war has been pretty much won. After Putin is going to lead to demands for greater liberalism. It's inevitable."

    I pushed him on mass immigration. He responded with "once again they do not care. The nationalists in Russia and elsewhere do but the masses are unconcerned with it. It's all about me, me, me. They think it cannot happen here."

    So it's looking like the West through TV, propaganda, music etc has pretty much won this round.

    Replies: @justiana, @anonymous coward, @128

    Any other solutions other than North Korea?

    • Replies: @Hartnell
    @128

    I asked my friend this very same question. What is it going to take to change hearts and minds over there and truly lead to a more patriotic embrace? He told me that it's going to have to get really ugly in Europe to make people realise that the West isn't the way to go. In other words, Europe has to essentially collapse or turn into an Afro-Islamic colony. Like he pointed out, when Merkel let in all the refugees, it freaked the Visegrad states out and they went nationalistic. It'll be the same state of affairs for Russia and the other surrounding countries as, like Karlin has put it quite so aptly, the Soviet Freezer effect is still strong.

    As long as the status quo continues and "the dream" lives on, the protestors will keep getting louder and the demand for liberalism greater.

  58. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN


    На Вкраїнi милiй
     
    At the time that Shevchenko wrote this poem, Ukraine was not a separate country but a colony of Russia's, like the Caucuses, the Urals. Regardless, his wish came true and his countrymen built a prominent resting place for their great Bard on the Dniepro river, overlooking the Ukrainian steppe:

    https://discover-ukraine.info/uploads/i/i/4f3659cfee1228.44610832.219.jpg

    How about yourself, you seem to be getting on in age, any thoughts about your own legacy? Hopefully something grander than that small plot within the cemetery behind the KFC in downtown Memphis?

    As for Hrushevsky, he "prospered under Stalin so well" that his body was never even located after Stalin's agents of death finally silenced him, somewhere in Siberia. Ukrainians never forgot about this great countryman either:

    https://h450v.alamy.com/450v/mb4392/monument-to-ukrainian-politician-and-historian-mykhailo-hrushevsky-in-lviv-ukraine-mykhailo-hrushevsky-was-elected-head-of-the-revolutionary-parliam-mb4392.jpg

    Replies: @for-the-record

    As for Hrushevsky, he “prospered under Stalin so well” that his body was never even located after Stalin’s agents of death finally silenced him, somewhere in Siberia.

    Siberia? I thought Kislovodsk (where he died on 24 November 1934) was somewhere in the Caucusus.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @for-the-record

    I couldn't quite remember where, I knew it was somewhere east of Ukraine. His death by murder was not something that anyone would imagine for somebody, as our perennial BS artist, Profesor Tenessee would have us believe, who "prospered under Stalin".

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  59. @for-the-record
    @Mr. Hack

    As for Hrushevsky, he “prospered under Stalin so well” that his body was never even located after Stalin’s agents of death finally silenced him, somewhere in Siberia.

    Siberia? I thought Kislovodsk (where he died on 24 November 1934) was somewhere in the Caucusus.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I couldn’t quite remember where, I knew it was somewhere east of Ukraine. His death by murder was not something that anyone would imagine for somebody, as our perennial BS artist, Profesor Tenessee would have us believe, who “prospered under Stalin”.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Yea, right. Even lying wiki does not lie as much as a Ukie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykhailo_Hrushevsky).

    Hrushevsky returned to the USSR in 1924, having conducted pro-Bolshevik propaganda for years before that. Unlike many honest people, he was never arrested by Stalin’s regime. Unlike honest people who were exiled to Siberia, in 1931 he was “exiled” to Moscow, of all places.

    And yes, he died in Kislovodsk, North Caucasus, in 1934.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  60. @Thulean Friend
    The fact that the major two remaining Russian-ethnic countries - Ukraine and Belarus - is slipping out of the orbit of Russia is a big humiliation for Moscow. Ukraine is basically lost at this point. Belarus should still be salvageable, but while the opposition isn't anti-Russian it isn't necessarily pro-integration either. The most likely scenario is a new leader which keeps the current status quo, which would go against the integrationist dreams of Russia.

    It's not about culture. Those are post-hoc explanations/justifications. The issue is that Russia is barely above Mexico in GDPpc. For all the talk of identity and history, most people care more about immediate needs. The West is simply far richer than Russia and will remain so, and so there will be a natural lure in that direction. People who obsess about LGBT nonsense over "kitchen table issues" are a tiny and disconnected minority.

    Replies: @Christopher Porritt, @Dreadilk, @Svevlad, @Swedish Family, @mal, @Yevardian, @RadicalCenter, @Hugo Silva

    If it is dollars and euros they want, they are in luck. Those will be printed by the $tens of trillions in the very near future. Not that its a bad thing.

  61. @Mr. Hack
    @for-the-record

    I couldn't quite remember where, I knew it was somewhere east of Ukraine. His death by murder was not something that anyone would imagine for somebody, as our perennial BS artist, Profesor Tenessee would have us believe, who "prospered under Stalin".

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Yea, right. Even lying wiki does not lie as much as a Ukie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykhailo_Hrushevsky).

    Hrushevsky returned to the USSR in 1924, having conducted pro-Bolshevik propaganda for years before that. Unlike many honest people, he was never arrested by Stalin’s regime. Unlike honest people who were exiled to Siberia, in 1931 he was “exiled” to Moscow, of all places.

    And yes, he died in Kislovodsk, North Caucasus, in 1934.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    You're either the one lying or unable to read, probably both. Here's what Wikipedia says about his death:


    Back in Ukraine, Hrushevsky concentrated on academic work. Above all, he continued writing his monumental History of Ukraine-Rus'. Although political conditions prevented his return to public politics, he was caught up in the Stalinist purge of the Ukrainian intelligentsia. In 1931, after a long campaign against Hrushevsky in the Soviet press, he was exiled to Moscow. In 1934, under the close watch of the Soviet political police, he died during a routine minor surgery in Kislovodsk, in the Caucasus, at the age of 68.
     
    Unlike what you write, he didn't get involved in politics after his return to Ukraine. His death was orchestrated by the KGB, something that would not have occurred during a "routine minor surgery".

    Where's any proof of his "prosperity"? Undoubtedly, he "prospered" even less than you did, who decided to jump ship and find you own "prosperity" in Tennessee. :-)

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  62. @128
    @Hartnell

    Any other solutions other than North Korea?

    Replies: @Hartnell

    I asked my friend this very same question. What is it going to take to change hearts and minds over there and truly lead to a more patriotic embrace? He told me that it’s going to have to get really ugly in Europe to make people realise that the West isn’t the way to go. In other words, Europe has to essentially collapse or turn into an Afro-Islamic colony. Like he pointed out, when Merkel let in all the refugees, it freaked the Visegrad states out and they went nationalistic. It’ll be the same state of affairs for Russia and the other surrounding countries as, like Karlin has put it quite so aptly, the Soviet Freezer effect is still strong.

    As long as the status quo continues and “the dream” lives on, the protestors will keep getting louder and the demand for liberalism greater.

  63. @AnonFromTN

    What’s the point when you have Tchaikovsky and rockets, LOL.
     
    Never underestimate the power of a severe inferiority complex. It is the driving force of Polish history for centuries, and of Ukrainian since 1991.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @reiner Tor

    I don’t think Poles have an inferiority complex. What makes you think so?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor


    I don’t think Poles have an inferiority complex. What makes you think so?
     
    Maybe not regular Poles, but their elites have a severe inferiority complex. The last three centuries of Poland’s suicidal policies (with 100% predictable results) attest to that. As well as continuing talk of being a leading Slavic nation, Poland from sea to sea, etc.

    The envy of their elites of Russia is pulpable, and still drives their anti-Russian stance. Poles tried to invade Russia twice in the early seventeenth century. They even captured Moscow, only to find themselves besieged in the Kremlin, where they ate their horses and, some say, each other. They were driven out in disgrace in 1611. In subsequent centuries Poland was divided between Russia and German states several times. The last was 1939. Polish elites apparently want their country to perish again, but there are no takers.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

  64. @128
    Be prepared to draw the new front line a few miles west of Smolensk, if Putin is going to send in the army he would have done it by now.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Why?

  65. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Yea, right. Even lying wiki does not lie as much as a Ukie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykhailo_Hrushevsky).

    Hrushevsky returned to the USSR in 1924, having conducted pro-Bolshevik propaganda for years before that. Unlike many honest people, he was never arrested by Stalin’s regime. Unlike honest people who were exiled to Siberia, in 1931 he was “exiled” to Moscow, of all places.

    And yes, he died in Kislovodsk, North Caucasus, in 1934.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    You’re either the one lying or unable to read, probably both. Here’s what Wikipedia says about his death:

    Back in Ukraine, Hrushevsky concentrated on academic work. Above all, he continued writing his monumental History of Ukraine-Rus’. Although political conditions prevented his return to public politics, he was caught up in the Stalinist purge of the Ukrainian intelligentsia. In 1931, after a long campaign against Hrushevsky in the Soviet press, he was exiled to Moscow. In 1934, under the close watch of the Soviet political police, he died during a routine minor surgery in Kislovodsk, in the Caucasus, at the age of 68.

    Unlike what you write, he didn’t get involved in politics after his return to Ukraine. His death was orchestrated by the KGB, something that would not have occurred during a “routine minor surgery”.

    Where’s any proof of his “prosperity”? Undoubtedly, he “prospered” even less than you did, who decided to jump ship and find you own “prosperity” in Tennessee. 🙂

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Yea, lying Wiki tries hard, but the task is daunting. See, pesky Stalin never arrested Hrushevsky. And the phrase “exiled to Moscow” gives the game away: too revealing.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  66. @justiana
    @Hartnell

    West win in short run. China in long run.

    Replies: @Hartnell

    Depends ultimately on the youth in China. If they decide to go democratic and liberal (this usually happens when wealth levels go up), then ultimately we are facing liberalism on a global scale and nothing can be done to stop the beast. If, on the other hand, the Chinese remain as patriotic and nationalistic as ever, then we could see more of a twist in world affairs down the pipeline.

  67. @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry


    On the other hand, because of his governance style, Lukashenko will never be accepted by Europe – and because of this neither America will accept him. In his dreams, Lukashenko would love to be visiting the White House in Washington DC, like Aliyev is allowed to. But I guess even Trump would be embarrassed to be near him.
     
    The difference between rule of law in Bulgaria and non-rule of law in Hungary and Poland is negligible. It is a purely political question.

    From the context of the current protests in Bulgaria, EU leaders are acting embarrassed over the issue while the USA is, true to stereotype, acting like a junkie wanting their next colour revolution fix.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Over years, Lukashenko had been trying to become friendly with America, but America is generally conditioning improving relations with Lukashenko on internal “democratic reforms” in Belarus, and sanctioning Belarus as they do not.

    On the other hand, America is more relaxed and happy to support Aliyev, and even they are not embarrassed to invite Nazarbayev to White House, without such level of demands they give to Belarus.

    In all cases, these leaders try to be friendly with America, but America has stricter criteria for Lukashenko, than for Aliyev.

    Part of the problem is that Lukashenko is in the centre of Europe, and his governance and self-presentation style was too much of contradiction to the self-image of enlightened Europe, which he never tried to disguise – he even has hobby of talking unashamedly about capital punishment and censorship, as part of his “alpha male buffoon” persona.

    Enlightened Europeans are ashamed to accept Lukashenko in their circle, and this is perhaps why his attempts to build relations with America were all conditioned on internal “democratic reforms”, while for autocratic leaders in Central Asia or Caucasia this demand is not, or at least ignored temporarily in the geopolitical conflict with Russia, or desire to extend America influence into these areas.

    At least, Lukashenko’s youngest son and supposed future heir, will be more presentable for Western audiences, if the father’s government can survive long enough for him to inherit anything. Probably the best diplomatic strategy would be to send his son to tour America, try to date Kylie Jenner, or interview on the Ellen show, etc. Probably Kanye could arrange a meeting with Trump – and there is might be the most plausible route for Lukashenko to visit the White House.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Dmitry

    Milo the Montenegrin Mafia Lord managed to get a photo op with Trump.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/predsjednik_cg/status/1176827867256250368

    Despite running a fiefdom and having "nasty" ties to 1990s Yugoslavia, as long as he pursues Atlanticist objectives he has been welcomed.

    I am not denying that European countries are generally treated harsher regarding "democracy" than a comparative non-"Western" country would be, however I believe it is based more on sentiments than genuine principles, thus the incoherence.

  68. Polish government and military running de-stabilisation and psy-op operations against Belarus, say these pieces

    https://www.veteranstoday.com/2020/08/17/polish-psychological-operations-unit-on-guard-of-democracy-in-belarus/

    https://southfront.org/belarus-protests-main-propaganda-channel-operated-out-of-poland/

    Polish website re psy-op military units, using the English word ‘psyops’ in the unit badges
    https://www.jednostki-wojskowe.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=311&Itemid=27

  69. @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN

    I don’t think Poles have an inferiority complex. What makes you think so?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    I don’t think Poles have an inferiority complex. What makes you think so?

    Maybe not regular Poles, but their elites have a severe inferiority complex. The last three centuries of Poland’s suicidal policies (with 100% predictable results) attest to that. As well as continuing talk of being a leading Slavic nation, Poland from sea to sea, etc.

    The envy of their elites of Russia is pulpable, and still drives their anti-Russian stance. Poles tried to invade Russia twice in the early seventeenth century. They even captured Moscow, only to find themselves besieged in the Kremlin, where they ate their horses and, some say, each other. They were driven out in disgrace in 1611. In subsequent centuries Poland was divided between Russia and German states several times. The last was 1939. Polish elites apparently want their country to perish again, but there are no takers.

    • Agree: Aedib
    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @AnonFromTN

    Russians have an inferiority complex deriving from their failed invasion of Poland in 1920.

    https://www.communications-unlimited.nl/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Kossak_-_Battle_of_Warsaw_1920.jpg

    Replies: @mal, @AnonFromTN

  70. @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor


    I don’t think Poles have an inferiority complex. What makes you think so?
     
    Maybe not regular Poles, but their elites have a severe inferiority complex. The last three centuries of Poland’s suicidal policies (with 100% predictable results) attest to that. As well as continuing talk of being a leading Slavic nation, Poland from sea to sea, etc.

    The envy of their elites of Russia is pulpable, and still drives their anti-Russian stance. Poles tried to invade Russia twice in the early seventeenth century. They even captured Moscow, only to find themselves besieged in the Kremlin, where they ate their horses and, some say, each other. They were driven out in disgrace in 1611. In subsequent centuries Poland was divided between Russia and German states several times. The last was 1939. Polish elites apparently want their country to perish again, but there are no takers.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    Russians have an inferiority complex deriving from their failed invasion of Poland in 1920.

    • Replies: @mal
    @Kent Nationalist

    1. It was Poland who was doing the invading (Ukraine and Russia).

    2. Red Army was commanded by Lev Bronstein, a Ukrainian Jew.

    It was a Polish-Ukrainian quarrel, hardly something for Russians to feel bad about.

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Kent Nationalist

    Last time I checked, 1939 was after 1920. So was 1945-91.

    Not to mention that everything Stalin took from Poland went to Ukraine, Belarus, and Lithuania. Let Poles recover their lands from those. I will stock up on popcorn.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

  71. @Kent Nationalist
    @AnonFromTN

    Russians have an inferiority complex deriving from their failed invasion of Poland in 1920.

    https://www.communications-unlimited.nl/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Kossak_-_Battle_of_Warsaw_1920.jpg

    Replies: @mal, @AnonFromTN

    1. It was Poland who was doing the invading (Ukraine and Russia).

    2. Red Army was commanded by Lev Bronstein, a Ukrainian Jew.

    It was a Polish-Ukrainian quarrel, hardly something for Russians to feel bad about.

    • LOL: Kent Nationalist
  72. @Dmitry
    @Hyperborean

    Over years, Lukashenko had been trying to become friendly with America, but America is generally conditioning improving relations with Lukashenko on internal "democratic reforms" in Belarus, and sanctioning Belarus as they do not.

    On the other hand, America is more relaxed and happy to support Aliyev, and even they are not embarrassed to invite Nazarbayev to White House, without such level of demands they give to Belarus.

    In all cases, these leaders try to be friendly with America, but America has stricter criteria for Lukashenko, than for Aliyev.

    Part of the problem is that Lukashenko is in the centre of Europe, and his governance and self-presentation style was too much of contradiction to the self-image of enlightened Europe, which he never tried to disguise - he even has hobby of talking unashamedly about capital punishment and censorship, as part of his "alpha male buffoon" persona.

    Enlightened Europeans are ashamed to accept Lukashenko in their circle, and this is perhaps why his attempts to build relations with America were all conditioned on internal "democratic reforms", while for autocratic leaders in Central Asia or Caucasia this demand is not, or at least ignored temporarily in the geopolitical conflict with Russia, or desire to extend America influence into these areas.

    At least, Lukashenko's youngest son and supposed future heir, will be more presentable for Western audiences, if the father's government can survive long enough for him to inherit anything. Probably the best diplomatic strategy would be to send his son to tour America, try to date Kylie Jenner, or interview on the Ellen show, etc. Probably Kanye could arrange a meeting with Trump - and there is might be the most plausible route for Lukashenko to visit the White House.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    Milo the Montenegrin Mafia Lord managed to get a photo op with Trump.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/predsjednik_cg/status/1176827867256250368

    Despite running a fiefdom and having “nasty” ties to 1990s Yugoslavia, as long as he pursues Atlanticist objectives he has been welcomed.

    I am not denying that European countries are generally treated harsher regarding “democracy” than a comparative non-“Western” country would be, however I believe it is based more on sentiments than genuine principles, thus the incoherence.

  73. @utu
    @German_reader

    Actually to avoid confusion completely we could eliminate the term Russia altogether and go back to Muscovy. When the Tsardom of Muscovy was expanding to Belaya Rus for Tsars of Muscovy there was no confusion as Tsars of Muscovy did not claim people living there were some kind of Russians of Muscovy. They called it Belaya Rus (White Ruthenia) not White Muscovy or White Russia.

    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-is-the-origin-of-the-name-belarus.html
    "The Russian Tsars used the phrase "White Rus" when referring to the land they annexed from Lithuania during the seventeenth century."

    Why 'White'? They were 'White' because they were not 'Red' because they were not what now are Ukrainians, i.e., Red or Kievian Rus. Their 'Whitness' came from differentiating themselves from Ukrainians not Russians because they shared the name Rus with what now are Ukrainians. Who gave them the name 'White"? People from the West. Poles and Germans. They exist because of Poles and Germans and for last 350 years Muscovy was trying to undo it and de facto erase their existence by telling Belarusians as well as Ukrainians that you do not exist because you are just confused because you are really Russians. Poles and Germans never told them that the do not exist. Actually Poles and Germans brought them to existence by giving them their name. In the beginning was the Word.

    Replies: @German_reader, @LG, @Dmitry

    You only need one generation (probably less) to create national identity – afterall it is subjective, and can perfectly rely on exaggerated childish mythology and legend, if there is a lack of objective history to support it. In three decades of independence, Belarus have succeeded to create a nationalist generation of young people. (And even non-independent places like Catalonia were able to do this).

    In a generation, you can be arguing as a new country against former compatriots, about who has the ugliest prostitutes or the strongest dogs. But this kind of childish, subjective, mythology, you cannot eat, or ask for a job.

    Belarus is a landlocked, plateau land, mostly dependent for its survival on kindness of neighbours, with no natural defenses – they cannot hide on top of mountains like Swiss or Armenians; and they also have no natural resources. I can only think one similar example – is Paraguay.

    So question is who is going to be their patron, which is more an expensive burden than a desirable prize? Lukashenko is unwillingly and usually ungratefully patronized by the Russian economy. Although he succeeded to attain some significant investments from China, and some investments of Western multinational companies and startups, and some concessions from the EU. But the West is never going to patronize him, or would even want to replace the importance of Russia in supporting Belarus economy while he is leader.

    If Lukashenko’s government collapses, then it’s possible a new government would emerge which would match the protesters’ desires, and will try to re-orient to receiving patronage from EU. But this is not exactly an easy and fast process. And for Europe to replace for Belarus, the massive economic support and subsidization they receive from Russia, would require significant transformation of their economy, loss revenue, and perhaps quite change in the local elite and their businesses.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @Dmitry

    "You only need one generation (probably less) to create national identity – afterall it is subjective, and can perfectly rely on exaggerated childish mythology and legend, if there is a lack of objective history to support it."

    This is absolutely true. The people of Skopjia (now known officially as Northern Macedonia) were simply a branch of the Bulgarian ethnos. Even their early nationalist leaders called themselves Bulgarians and agitated for Bulgaria. However, within two, maybe three generations, their elites manufactured an ethnic identity based on the history of other people to the extent of adopting the name of a branch of another ethnos. Ethnic identity is one of the most enduring aspects of human history but it is very malleable.

    , @utu
    @Dmitry

    "And for Europe to replace for Belarus, the massive economic support and subsidization..." - I am sure that somebody out there is thinking about the economic issues and costs if Belarus is peeled off from Russia but I am pretty sure the costs are outweighed by the geopolitical benefits of having Russia being sent further East to where it came from and the propaganda shock and awe of pure exuberance of having people of a small nation gaining their freedom.

    If this happen Belarus will be bared from joining NATO and forbidden to host foreign troops just like Austria. Paraguay analogy is also good.

    As far as identities, all of them are constructed whether they are 'true' or 'fake'. The 'fake' ones are also 'true' when not contested. The identities are nor really needed in normal daily life. They only come handy in arguments when things go bad.

    Replies: @Aedib, @Dmitry

  74. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    You're either the one lying or unable to read, probably both. Here's what Wikipedia says about his death:


    Back in Ukraine, Hrushevsky concentrated on academic work. Above all, he continued writing his monumental History of Ukraine-Rus'. Although political conditions prevented his return to public politics, he was caught up in the Stalinist purge of the Ukrainian intelligentsia. In 1931, after a long campaign against Hrushevsky in the Soviet press, he was exiled to Moscow. In 1934, under the close watch of the Soviet political police, he died during a routine minor surgery in Kislovodsk, in the Caucasus, at the age of 68.
     
    Unlike what you write, he didn't get involved in politics after his return to Ukraine. His death was orchestrated by the KGB, something that would not have occurred during a "routine minor surgery".

    Where's any proof of his "prosperity"? Undoubtedly, he "prospered" even less than you did, who decided to jump ship and find you own "prosperity" in Tennessee. :-)

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Yea, lying Wiki tries hard, but the task is daunting. See, pesky Stalin never arrested Hrushevsky. And the phrase “exiled to Moscow” gives the game away: too revealing.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    It's actually you that needs to try harder; Hrushevsky experienced great persecution, both in the press and at home at the hands of the NKVD that were intent on destroying the man. He had little desire to live in Moscow, however, was forced to live there, against his will twice for several years. His presence in Kyiv was barred, as it would have put him into closer contact with more like minded Ukrainian intellectuals, whereas his presence in Moscow meant that his regular interrogations could be easier coordinated with the likes of Kaganovych himself. As to the murky circumstances surrounding his mysterious and quick death, this is what his biographer, Thomas Prymak has to say (p. 261-262):


    Mystery also clouds the cirumstances and reasons for Hrushevsky's death. Why did Khurgin not allow Maria Sylvestrivna's friend to perform the necessary operation, and thus escape the responsibility of the critical medical operation and escape the responsibility for the critical medical procedure of which, as Khurgin later admitted he was unprepared? Did the surgeon's knife purposely slip in accordance with an order from above? It is possible that the archives of the Soviet political police contain a firm answer to the intriguing question? On the other hand, it is possible that the full truth will ever be known with certainty. What was clear to contemporaries, however, abd what must be fully stated by any biographer of the Ukrainian historian, is that the Soviet authorities persecuted and harried Hrushevsky throughout his last years, so that an illness such as the one that appears to have killed him was almost unavoidable. Cold, malnutrition and physical exhaustion were the immediate causes of his fatal condition; its certain cure - physical and psychological rest, shelter and proper nourishment - was beyond his reach. The soviet government, and most probably Stalin himself, destroyed the diminutive historian. The only question is whether it was done directly through the surgeon's knife or indirectly through public denunciation and private prosecution.
     
    So where, Tovarishch, is there any proof at all that Hrushevsky "prospered under Stalin"? Or is this just more of the sort of rubbish that you are prone to make-up and circulate here?
  75. @Kent Nationalist
    @AnonFromTN

    Russians have an inferiority complex deriving from their failed invasion of Poland in 1920.

    https://www.communications-unlimited.nl/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Kossak_-_Battle_of_Warsaw_1920.jpg

    Replies: @mal, @AnonFromTN

    Last time I checked, 1939 was after 1920. So was 1945-91.

    Not to mention that everything Stalin took from Poland went to Ukraine, Belarus, and Lithuania. Let Poles recover their lands from those. I will stock up on popcorn.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @AnonFromTN

    Although what land Poland has lost to those countries they've more than made up for in the land they've taken from Germany, so overall I don't think the Poles have done too bad in land wars.

    Replies: @but an humble craftsman

  76. @Dmitry
    @utu

    You only need one generation (probably less) to create national identity - afterall it is subjective, and can perfectly rely on exaggerated childish mythology and legend, if there is a lack of objective history to support it. In three decades of independence, Belarus have succeeded to create a nationalist generation of young people. (And even non-independent places like Catalonia were able to do this).

    In a generation, you can be arguing as a new country against former compatriots, about who has the ugliest prostitutes or the strongest dogs. But this kind of childish, subjective, mythology, you cannot eat, or ask for a job.

    Belarus is a landlocked, plateau land, mostly dependent for its survival on kindness of neighbours, with no natural defenses - they cannot hide on top of mountains like Swiss or Armenians; and they also have no natural resources. I can only think one similar example - is Paraguay.

    So question is who is going to be their patron, which is more an expensive burden than a desirable prize? Lukashenko is unwillingly and usually ungratefully patronized by the Russian economy. Although he succeeded to attain some significant investments from China, and some investments of Western multinational companies and startups, and some concessions from the EU. But the West is never going to patronize him, or would even want to replace the importance of Russia in supporting Belarus economy while he is leader.

    If Lukashenko's government collapses, then it's possible a new government would emerge which would match the protesters' desires, and will try to re-orient to receiving patronage from EU. But this is not exactly an easy and fast process. And for Europe to replace for Belarus, the massive economic support and subsidization they receive from Russia, would require significant transformation of their economy, loss revenue, and perhaps quite change in the local elite and their businesses.

    Replies: @Agathoklis, @utu

    “You only need one generation (probably less) to create national identity – afterall it is subjective, and can perfectly rely on exaggerated childish mythology and legend, if there is a lack of objective history to support it.”

    This is absolutely true. The people of Skopjia (now known officially as Northern Macedonia) were simply a branch of the Bulgarian ethnos. Even their early nationalist leaders called themselves Bulgarians and agitated for Bulgaria. However, within two, maybe three generations, their elites manufactured an ethnic identity based on the history of other people to the extent of adopting the name of a branch of another ethnos. Ethnic identity is one of the most enduring aspects of human history but it is very malleable.

  77. @Dmitry
    @utu

    You only need one generation (probably less) to create national identity - afterall it is subjective, and can perfectly rely on exaggerated childish mythology and legend, if there is a lack of objective history to support it. In three decades of independence, Belarus have succeeded to create a nationalist generation of young people. (And even non-independent places like Catalonia were able to do this).

    In a generation, you can be arguing as a new country against former compatriots, about who has the ugliest prostitutes or the strongest dogs. But this kind of childish, subjective, mythology, you cannot eat, or ask for a job.

    Belarus is a landlocked, plateau land, mostly dependent for its survival on kindness of neighbours, with no natural defenses - they cannot hide on top of mountains like Swiss or Armenians; and they also have no natural resources. I can only think one similar example - is Paraguay.

    So question is who is going to be their patron, which is more an expensive burden than a desirable prize? Lukashenko is unwillingly and usually ungratefully patronized by the Russian economy. Although he succeeded to attain some significant investments from China, and some investments of Western multinational companies and startups, and some concessions from the EU. But the West is never going to patronize him, or would even want to replace the importance of Russia in supporting Belarus economy while he is leader.

    If Lukashenko's government collapses, then it's possible a new government would emerge which would match the protesters' desires, and will try to re-orient to receiving patronage from EU. But this is not exactly an easy and fast process. And for Europe to replace for Belarus, the massive economic support and subsidization they receive from Russia, would require significant transformation of their economy, loss revenue, and perhaps quite change in the local elite and their businesses.

    Replies: @Agathoklis, @utu

    “And for Europe to replace for Belarus, the massive economic support and subsidization…” – I am sure that somebody out there is thinking about the economic issues and costs if Belarus is peeled off from Russia but I am pretty sure the costs are outweighed by the geopolitical benefits of having Russia being sent further East to where it came from and the propaganda shock and awe of pure exuberance of having people of a small nation gaining their freedom.

    If this happen Belarus will be bared from joining NATO and forbidden to host foreign troops just like Austria. Paraguay analogy is also good.

    As far as identities, all of them are constructed whether they are ‘true’ or ‘fake’. The ‘fake’ ones are also ‘true’ when not contested. The identities are nor really needed in normal daily life. They only come handy in arguments when things go bad.

    • Replies: @Aedib
    @utu

    Paraguay was decimated by an entente of its two powerful neighbors (Argentina and Brazil). It was a sort of Poland of South America placed between a rock and a hard place.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_War

    Eventually borders conflicts were solved but with catastrophic losses for Paraguay.

    , @Dmitry
    @utu


    Belarus is peeled off from Russia... having Russia being sent further East
     
    This has happened already on the political level - Lukashenko has for years been promoting mild rusophobia, even in his ordinary conversation to journalists, but of course the economy is to a large extent surviving from the Russian Federation, and as an intermediary point between Russia and the EU economies.

    The unusual thing is that Belarus economy is primarily based on its integration in the Russian economy, while Lukashenko has been so politically independent from Russia. As often with neighbours, Russia (or politicians) has been a very generous soul, financially, without a return on the investment.

    I can't say much - but obviously, for Belarus to re-orient its economy to the EU will be expensive and unrealistic. for reasons far in addition to the end on re-selling oil or exporting fish, which was likely ending anyway. Although even comic things like Belarus export of local seafood to Russia, seems large revenue for certain oligarchs in Belarus.

    Much of the industry and metallurgy in Belarus is funded by Russian banks. Most of tractors constructed in Belarus are sold in Russia. Their potash exported into Russia. Many situations like that.

    Even if you think about Chinese investments into Belarus, they are based on exporting to Russia - most of the cars are exported and sold in Russia. It's Chinese investment into Belarus, designed to produce cheap cars that can be sold in Russia. (People in Germany will [AK: I assume you meant to add "not" here] buy those Geely Atlas cars).

    That's not to say there would be embargo on Belarus. But in theory, a lot of the economy would collapse in such a case.
  78. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Yea, lying Wiki tries hard, but the task is daunting. See, pesky Stalin never arrested Hrushevsky. And the phrase “exiled to Moscow” gives the game away: too revealing.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    It’s actually you that needs to try harder; Hrushevsky experienced great persecution, both in the press and at home at the hands of the NKVD that were intent on destroying the man. He had little desire to live in Moscow, however, was forced to live there, against his will twice for several years. His presence in Kyiv was barred, as it would have put him into closer contact with more like minded Ukrainian intellectuals, whereas his presence in Moscow meant that his regular interrogations could be easier coordinated with the likes of Kaganovych himself. As to the murky circumstances surrounding his mysterious and quick death, this is what his biographer, Thomas Prymak has to say (p. 261-262):

    Mystery also clouds the cirumstances and reasons for Hrushevsky’s death. Why did Khurgin not allow Maria Sylvestrivna’s friend to perform the necessary operation, and thus escape the responsibility of the critical medical operation and escape the responsibility for the critical medical procedure of which, as Khurgin later admitted he was unprepared? Did the surgeon’s knife purposely slip in accordance with an order from above? It is possible that the archives of the Soviet political police contain a firm answer to the intriguing question? On the other hand, it is possible that the full truth will ever be known with certainty. What was clear to contemporaries, however, abd what must be fully stated by any biographer of the Ukrainian historian, is that the Soviet authorities persecuted and harried Hrushevsky throughout his last years, so that an illness such as the one that appears to have killed him was almost unavoidable. Cold, malnutrition and physical exhaustion were the immediate causes of his fatal condition; its certain cure – physical and psychological rest, shelter and proper nourishment – was beyond his reach. The soviet government, and most probably Stalin himself, destroyed the diminutive historian. The only question is whether it was done directly through the surgeon’s knife or indirectly through public denunciation and private prosecution.

    So where, Tovarishch, is there any proof at all that Hrushevsky “prospered under Stalin”? Or is this just more of the sort of rubbish that you are prone to make-up and circulate here?

  79. @Hartnell
    This is essentially the problem with countries like Belarus. They are always used to having a "master" tell them what to do. In the past (and even to an extent recently) it was Russia. But the protesters don't see any hope with Russia and live in the delusion the West will solve all of their problems, hence they are looking for a new boss.

    It's the same case with Ireland. They got fed up of the old boss England but straight away jumped on the train of the new boss Europe when all was said and done. Despite all of that fierce IRA fight back over the decades, they pretty much surrendered on a whim to the EU.

    During my discussions with Irishmen over the years, 99 percent of them were heavily in favour of the EU, even downright "patriotic" I would say to the new order, despite the new migrants coming in and the ever so depending erosion of national sovereignty. I've even spoke to those who sympathise with the IRA over the years and hold mass hatred towards Britain. Yet when I point out England is not the enemy anymore and it is Brussels and it's dreams of an EU United society, they all go very quiet or just retort with "down with the British". It is like they are unable to see it or even down right support it.

    I could see Ukraine going the same route if the country is ever fully admitted into the EU (which at the moment seems a distant reality as the people keep voting for it not to take place). As for Belarus, once again, the EU won't integrate them anytime soon but if the project ever picks up pace there again, make no mistake, Belarus will get absorbed.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @AnonFromTN, @Europe Europa

    I read that Cork in Ireland used to have a Jewish mayor called Gerald Goldberg, and he used to compare British soldiers in Ireland to pro-Tsar Cossacks in Russia, and presumably implying that Irish republicans are the equivalent of Bolsheviks in his analogy.

    Gerald Goldberg grew up in a Yiddish-speaking Orthodox home. The family were active Irish Republicans, dangerous due to raids by the Black and Tans. His father hung the wedding photo of Prince Edward and Princess Alexandra (later King Edward VII and Queen Alexandra) on the wall, which satisfied a British officer they were loyal to the crown. It was a similar trick they had used in Russia, when hanging photos of the Tsar to avoid harassment by Cossacks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Goldberg

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Europe Europa

    It also had a Jewish immigration minister, which was part of the problem. And, even earlier, a pogrom.

  80. @AnonFromTN
    @Kent Nationalist

    Last time I checked, 1939 was after 1920. So was 1945-91.

    Not to mention that everything Stalin took from Poland went to Ukraine, Belarus, and Lithuania. Let Poles recover their lands from those. I will stock up on popcorn.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

    Although what land Poland has lost to those countries they’ve more than made up for in the land they’ve taken from Germany, so overall I don’t think the Poles have done too bad in land wars.

    • Replies: @but an humble craftsman
    @Europe Europa

    True, but unmentionable.
    You see, Poles have feelings.

  81. @utu
    @Dmitry

    "And for Europe to replace for Belarus, the massive economic support and subsidization..." - I am sure that somebody out there is thinking about the economic issues and costs if Belarus is peeled off from Russia but I am pretty sure the costs are outweighed by the geopolitical benefits of having Russia being sent further East to where it came from and the propaganda shock and awe of pure exuberance of having people of a small nation gaining their freedom.

    If this happen Belarus will be bared from joining NATO and forbidden to host foreign troops just like Austria. Paraguay analogy is also good.

    As far as identities, all of them are constructed whether they are 'true' or 'fake'. The 'fake' ones are also 'true' when not contested. The identities are nor really needed in normal daily life. They only come handy in arguments when things go bad.

    Replies: @Aedib, @Dmitry

    Paraguay was decimated by an entente of its two powerful neighbors (Argentina and Brazil). It was a sort of Poland of South America placed between a rock and a hard place.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_War

    Eventually borders conflicts were solved but with catastrophic losses for Paraguay.

    • Agree: utu
  82. @utu
    @Dmitry

    "And for Europe to replace for Belarus, the massive economic support and subsidization..." - I am sure that somebody out there is thinking about the economic issues and costs if Belarus is peeled off from Russia but I am pretty sure the costs are outweighed by the geopolitical benefits of having Russia being sent further East to where it came from and the propaganda shock and awe of pure exuberance of having people of a small nation gaining their freedom.

    If this happen Belarus will be bared from joining NATO and forbidden to host foreign troops just like Austria. Paraguay analogy is also good.

    As far as identities, all of them are constructed whether they are 'true' or 'fake'. The 'fake' ones are also 'true' when not contested. The identities are nor really needed in normal daily life. They only come handy in arguments when things go bad.

    Replies: @Aedib, @Dmitry

    Belarus is peeled off from Russia… having Russia being sent further East

    This has happened already on the political level – Lukashenko has for years been promoting mild rusophobia, even in his ordinary conversation to journalists, but of course the economy is to a large extent surviving from the Russian Federation, and as an intermediary point between Russia and the EU economies.

    The unusual thing is that Belarus economy is primarily based on its integration in the Russian economy, while Lukashenko has been so politically independent from Russia. As often with neighbours, Russia (or politicians) has been a very generous soul, financially, without a return on the investment.

    I can’t say much – but obviously, for Belarus to re-orient its economy to the EU will be expensive and unrealistic. for reasons far in addition to the end on re-selling oil or exporting fish, which was likely ending anyway. Although even comic things like Belarus export of local seafood to Russia, seems large revenue for certain oligarchs in Belarus.

    Much of the industry and metallurgy in Belarus is funded by Russian banks. Most of tractors constructed in Belarus are sold in Russia. Their potash exported into Russia. Many situations like that.

    Even if you think about Chinese investments into Belarus, they are based on exporting to Russia – most of the cars are exported and sold in Russia. It’s Chinese investment into Belarus, designed to produce cheap cars that can be sold in Russia. (People in Germany will [AK: I assume you meant to add “not” here] buy those Geely Atlas cars).

    That’s not to say there would be embargo on Belarus. But in theory, a lot of the economy would collapse in such a case.

  83. @Europe Europa
    @Hartnell

    I read that Cork in Ireland used to have a Jewish mayor called Gerald Goldberg, and he used to compare British soldiers in Ireland to pro-Tsar Cossacks in Russia, and presumably implying that Irish republicans are the equivalent of Bolsheviks in his analogy.


    Gerald Goldberg grew up in a Yiddish-speaking Orthodox home. The family were active Irish Republicans, dangerous due to raids by the Black and Tans. His father hung the wedding photo of Prince Edward and Princess Alexandra (later King Edward VII and Queen Alexandra) on the wall, which satisfied a British officer they were loyal to the crown. It was a similar trick they had used in Russia, when hanging photos of the Tsar to avoid harassment by Cossacks.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Goldberg

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    It also had a Jewish immigration minister, which was part of the problem. And, even earlier, a pogrom.

  84. @Thulean Friend
    @Hartnell

    Your analogy breaks down in that Ireland is as wealthy/rich as England is today, if not more so. The same can't be said for Belarus or Ukraine. So even if their anti-UK rhetoric clearly causes much butthurt for you, the reality is that their diss of you didn't hurt them.

    Replies: @Dreadilk, @Yevardian

    “It’s Irish not Gaelic!!”

    Anyway, much of Ireland’s economic success is largely fictive, a product of it being an English-speaking international tax-haven.

    • Agree: Kent Nationalist
  85. @Thulean Friend
    The fact that the major two remaining Russian-ethnic countries - Ukraine and Belarus - is slipping out of the orbit of Russia is a big humiliation for Moscow. Ukraine is basically lost at this point. Belarus should still be salvageable, but while the opposition isn't anti-Russian it isn't necessarily pro-integration either. The most likely scenario is a new leader which keeps the current status quo, which would go against the integrationist dreams of Russia.

    It's not about culture. Those are post-hoc explanations/justifications. The issue is that Russia is barely above Mexico in GDPpc. For all the talk of identity and history, most people care more about immediate needs. The West is simply far richer than Russia and will remain so, and so there will be a natural lure in that direction. People who obsess about LGBT nonsense over "kitchen table issues" are a tiny and disconnected minority.

    Replies: @Christopher Porritt, @Dreadilk, @Svevlad, @Swedish Family, @mal, @Yevardian, @RadicalCenter, @Hugo Silva

    Belarus should still be salvageable, but while the opposition isn’t anti-Russian it isn’t necessarily pro-integration either. The most likely scenario is a new leader which keeps the current status quo, which would go against the integrationist dreams of Russia.

    Doubt.
    If Putin can’t react to this in a firm and timely manner soon, he’s toast. The shine of Crimea has worn off already, and the potential disaster in irrevocably losing an relatively well-functioning (in contrast to Ukraine) Russian state will lead to him being laballed a failed leader, both to his political colleagues, the Americans and the Russian public.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  86. @utu
    "What’s the point when you have Tchaikovsky and rockets" - Both Tchaikovsky and phallic hard rockets may come handy when proselytizing Russia's cause in gay community. Even the soft power of Russia is hard.

    Replies: @Gerard.Gerard

    Both Chaikovsky and phallic hard rockets may come handy when proselytising Russia’s cause in the gay community. Even Russia’s soft power is hard

    That comment could almost win the Internet…… except for the inconvenient fact that in addition to Chaikovsky, Russia has Rakhmaninov, Shostakovich, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Borodin, Glinka, Scriabin, Stravinsky. That is a mass of great, genius composers loved and known throughout the world.

    Poland has?……….. LOL….. (insert some mathematical formula of a rapidly expanding black hole)

    Poland has done ZERO contribution to classical music and the entire western culture in the last 500 years. Embarrassingly, small Armenia, which isn’t even European, has contributed more to the west than Poland because of the world-renowned composer Khachaturian.
    It’s unfortunate that great Armenian Konyak is not sold in the west because if it was, then it would surpass the number of Polish products sold in the west.

    Before you mention (pathetically the only one you can) Chopin, remember that:

    1. He was ethnically French
    2. Only had sex with French women
    3. Composed everything in France (and possibly in Majorca, of course nothing in Poland)
    4. Died in France
    5. Airport in Poland named after him
    probably because its the first place he would have gone to in Poland if they existed at the time
    6. I don’t know–did he even speak Polish?
    7. Absolutely nothing derivative from his work in Poland–completely different to the great Russian, German, Hungarian, French, Italian and British composers who influenced or created other respected composers, conductors and musicians who trained directly under them…. because he wasn’t Polish–there was nothing of that for Poland
    8.Bizarrely and idiotically Poles tried to claim after-death, of some of Chopin pieces being “Polish style/culture ” or “dedicated to Poland” – not because of anything he said or wrote, but based solely on the fact that…….. many of his pieces were suicidally sounding faggotry, which Polish nationalists assumed must have been dedicated to them

    I can as reflex action name 25 great Russian writers without a thought entering my brain. Nobody in the world can name any Polish writer

    Our contributions in science and engineering are too much for any blog post. Non-Jewish Polish contributions are……. noneexistant.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Gerard.Gerard

    I agree that Russian cultural achievements are on totally different level than Polish, but still Stanislaw Lem is quite famous and Henryk Sienkiewicz. Strangely I have read about 15 years ago Sienkiewicz's Quo vadis, but I dont remember almost anything from it! A sure sign of mediocre or bad literature. For forgetting that much is very rare for me, still I vividly remember Hugos, Tolstoys and Dumas's etc books... But one should not condemn author just by one book, so I ask Poles here, is his Trilogy good? Do you recommend it?

    Lem was okay, some funny novel short stories, like that one in which protagonist suffers an accident and loses communication between his brain halves. Oh I just checked Lem is of Jewish origin. Hey Lyakhs/Poles give me some recommendations?! Some good Polish authors?

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Gerard.Gerard

    , @Philip Owen
    @Gerard.Gerard

    Copernicus, Marie Curie and Mandelbrot come to mind. There are probably others.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

    , @Agathoklis
    @Gerard.Gerard

    Armenians are Europeans.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela, @Yevardian

    , @Rich
    @Gerard.Gerard

    The Poles gave us Sobieski, who saved Europe from the accursed Islamists. If they, as a people, do nothing else, they have my appreciation for that. We'd have no Western culture, no music, no art, nothing. They have my permission to rest on that laurel.

  87. @Gerard.Gerard
    @utu


    Both Chaikovsky and phallic hard rockets may come handy when proselytising Russia's cause in the gay community. Even Russia's soft power is hard
     
    That comment could almost win the Internet...... except for the inconvenient fact that in addition to Chaikovsky, Russia has Rakhmaninov, Shostakovich, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Borodin, Glinka, Scriabin, Stravinsky. That is a mass of great, genius composers loved and known throughout the world.

    Poland has?........... LOL..... (insert some mathematical formula of a rapidly expanding black hole)

    Poland has done ZERO contribution to classical music and the entire western culture in the last 500 years. Embarrassingly, small Armenia, which isn't even European, has contributed more to the west than Poland because of the world-renowned composer Khachaturian.
    It's unfortunate that great Armenian Konyak is not sold in the west because if it was, then it would surpass the number of Polish products sold in the west.

    Before you mention (pathetically the only one you can) Chopin, remember that:

    1. He was ethnically French
    2. Only had sex with French women
    3. Composed everything in France (and possibly in Majorca, of course nothing in Poland)
    4. Died in France
    5. Airport in Poland named after him
    probably because its the first place he would have gone to in Poland if they existed at the time
    6. I don't know--did he even speak Polish?
    7. Absolutely nothing derivative from his work in Poland--completely different to the great Russian, German, Hungarian, French, Italian and British composers who influenced or created other respected composers, conductors and musicians who trained directly under them.... because he wasn't Polish--there was nothing of that for Poland
    8.Bizarrely and idiotically Poles tried to claim after-death, of some of Chopin pieces being "Polish style/culture " or "dedicated to Poland" - not because of anything he said or wrote, but based solely on the fact that........ many of his pieces were suicidally sounding faggotry, which Polish nationalists assumed must have been dedicated to them

    I can as reflex action name 25 great Russian writers without a thought entering my brain. Nobody in the world can name any Polish writer

    Our contributions in science and engineering are too much for any blog post. Non-Jewish Polish contributions are....... noneexistant.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Philip Owen, @Agathoklis, @Rich

    I agree that Russian cultural achievements are on totally different level than Polish, but still Stanislaw Lem is quite famous and Henryk Sienkiewicz. Strangely I have read about 15 years ago Sienkiewicz’s Quo vadis, but I dont remember almost anything from it! A sure sign of mediocre or bad literature. For forgetting that much is very rare for me, still I vividly remember Hugos, Tolstoys and Dumas’s etc books… But one should not condemn author just by one book, so I ask Poles here, is his Trilogy good? Do you recommend it?

    Lem was okay, some funny novel short stories, like that one in which protagonist suffers an accident and loses communication between his brain halves. Oh I just checked Lem is of Jewish origin. Hey Lyakhs/Poles give me some recommendations?! Some good Polish authors?

    • Agree: Gerard.Gerard
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @AltanBakshi

    I mean, Chopin is a world class composer, along with Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, and Rachmaninov, and possibly Prokofiev from Russians. So, equal in per capita terms. Gerard suffers from PDS (Poland Derangement Syndrome) as surely as utu does from RDS.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Gerard.Gerard, @Dmitry, @Agathoklis, @Swedish Family

    , @Gerard.Gerard
    @AltanBakshi

    It's embarrassing and a disgrace for a country of that size and population.

    In terms of products, no reason at all why their vodka should not have been mass exported to EU countries instead of Russian vodka . My thinking is they don't do it because consumer research shows that "Polish" or " Bulgarian" in front of any product produces negative connotations for the westerner about being low-quality or defective, even when they are not.

    It is criminal that Poland after 1989 destroyed their own national automobile industry.. the best in the Eastern bloc I would say. They could easily have surpassed the strong profits made in Europe by Skoda. We see in ukropia that once they stopped buying Russian cars (well, technically Lada's are half-EU/ half-russian cars).... they stopped buying new cars completely. Poland should easily have been able to create a big market share in post-Soviet space for sales of automobiles--but chose state prostitution

    No doubt that numerous military and cultural failures are the reason for this gigantic inferiority complex

  88. @AltanBakshi
    @Gerard.Gerard

    I agree that Russian cultural achievements are on totally different level than Polish, but still Stanislaw Lem is quite famous and Henryk Sienkiewicz. Strangely I have read about 15 years ago Sienkiewicz's Quo vadis, but I dont remember almost anything from it! A sure sign of mediocre or bad literature. For forgetting that much is very rare for me, still I vividly remember Hugos, Tolstoys and Dumas's etc books... But one should not condemn author just by one book, so I ask Poles here, is his Trilogy good? Do you recommend it?

    Lem was okay, some funny novel short stories, like that one in which protagonist suffers an accident and loses communication between his brain halves. Oh I just checked Lem is of Jewish origin. Hey Lyakhs/Poles give me some recommendations?! Some good Polish authors?

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Gerard.Gerard

    I mean, Chopin is a world class composer, along with Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, and Rachmaninov, and possibly Prokofiev from Russians. So, equal in per capita terms. Gerard suffers from PDS (Poland Derangement Syndrome) as surely as utu does from RDS.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I was interested in the state of Polish literature, not classical music. Also its quite foreign to me to think classical arts on the basis of gdp per capita.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    , @Gerard.Gerard
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Did Chopin even do anything with an orchestra when he was not having a tough time with all the menstruating?

    Maybe a single, nothing-standard piano concerto, but that is all. That is pathetic - all the truly great composers did Orchestral music, not just be single instrumentalists..... and I say this despite being the most piano-centric man on the planet, who hugely enjoys listening to recordings of Valentina Lisitsa's magnificent playing of orchestral pieces solely with just the piano part ( like the Rakhmaninov piano concertos)

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Dmitry
    @Anatoly Karlin


    world class composer,
     
    In what criteria Stravinsky and Prokofiev, but not Scriabin (or Musorgsky or Rimsky-Korsakov or Shostakovich)?

    If your criteria is something like "popularity with concert and music buying public, as well as reading public" - of course, Shostakovich is far more popular than either Stravinsky or Prokofiev, today. So if your criteria is just such kind of generic popularity, then Shostakovich is easily ahead of those, and even in the first or second position.

    You would have to ask people who work in the ticket selling for concert - but I would not be surprised Shostakovich symphony will generate more excitement and sales for a concert hall, than Tchaikovsky symphony. He is probably the most fashionable Russian composer from any epoch in some ways.

    -

    I would agree that current audience listen less to famous pieces of Musorgsky and Rimsky-Korsakov's today, but it's partly because they were historically a victim of their own popularity. When their works were for a century in every school concert, advertising music, and Disney films - it became impossible to hear it like it as the modern works that were received by contemporaries.

    Perception of music - although to less extent than film or painting - suffers a lot by overexposure in the wrong context.

    -

    Popularity also depends on instruments that people play. For a lot of pianists - Scriabin is considered at the top of the top of their favourite modern composers.

    -

    That's not saying the objective way to judge the value of composers in this way - by popularity. The objective basis needs quite significant of study the compositions against those of their contemporaries.

    I'm not expert, but as sloppy hobby amateur, I love to play Rachmaninov and Scriabin - and between the two great composers for piano, of course Scriabin is less commonly composing according to formula, or less feeling like they were built from Hanon exercises.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

    , @Agathoklis
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Personally, I think Prokofiev is better than all of those composers with the exception of Shostakovich. His Cinderella is genius.

    , @Swedish Family
    @Anatoly Karlin


    I mean, Chopin is a world class composer, along with Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, and Rachmaninov, and possibly Prokofiev from Russians. So, equal in per capita terms.
     
    Tchaikovsky surely is a league above these others you name.

    There are greats and there are titans. In world letters, Pushkin, Turgenev, and Goncharov (and many others) are greats but not titans, while Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Chekhov, Bulgakov, and Nabokov (some would also add Gogol -- and maybe Solzhenitsyn) are all titans.

    In classical music, there are only four credible titans: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Tchaikovsky.* Tchaikovsky therefore can't be likened to any other Russian composer (or indeed Chopin). His is the realm of Shakespeare, Picasso, and Kubrick.

    * This argument does not reflect my own taste. Myself, I would demote Beethoven and Mozart and give the top spot to Ravel.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela, @Dmitry

  89. @AltanBakshi
    @Gerard.Gerard

    I agree that Russian cultural achievements are on totally different level than Polish, but still Stanislaw Lem is quite famous and Henryk Sienkiewicz. Strangely I have read about 15 years ago Sienkiewicz's Quo vadis, but I dont remember almost anything from it! A sure sign of mediocre or bad literature. For forgetting that much is very rare for me, still I vividly remember Hugos, Tolstoys and Dumas's etc books... But one should not condemn author just by one book, so I ask Poles here, is his Trilogy good? Do you recommend it?

    Lem was okay, some funny novel short stories, like that one in which protagonist suffers an accident and loses communication between his brain halves. Oh I just checked Lem is of Jewish origin. Hey Lyakhs/Poles give me some recommendations?! Some good Polish authors?

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Gerard.Gerard

    It’s embarrassing and a disgrace for a country of that size and population.

    In terms of products, no reason at all why their vodka should not have been mass exported to EU countries instead of Russian vodka . My thinking is they don’t do it because consumer research shows that “Polish” or ” Bulgarian” in front of any product produces negative connotations for the westerner about being low-quality or defective, even when they are not.

    It is criminal that Poland after 1989 destroyed their own national automobile industry.. the best in the Eastern bloc I would say. They could easily have surpassed the strong profits made in Europe by Skoda. We see in ukropia that once they stopped buying Russian cars (well, technically Lada’s are half-EU/ half-russian cars)…. they stopped buying new cars completely. Poland should easily have been able to create a big market share in post-Soviet space for sales of automobiles–but chose state prostitution

    No doubt that numerous military and cultural failures are the reason for this gigantic inferiority complex

  90. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AltanBakshi

    I mean, Chopin is a world class composer, along with Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, and Rachmaninov, and possibly Prokofiev from Russians. So, equal in per capita terms. Gerard suffers from PDS (Poland Derangement Syndrome) as surely as utu does from RDS.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Gerard.Gerard, @Dmitry, @Agathoklis, @Swedish Family

    I was interested in the state of Polish literature, not classical music. Also its quite foreign to me to think classical arts on the basis of gdp per capita.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @AltanBakshi

    Roger Zelazny is an excellent writer of Polish-American origin: his Chronicles of Amber is one of my favorite series of fiction.

  91. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AltanBakshi

    I mean, Chopin is a world class composer, along with Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, and Rachmaninov, and possibly Prokofiev from Russians. So, equal in per capita terms. Gerard suffers from PDS (Poland Derangement Syndrome) as surely as utu does from RDS.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Gerard.Gerard, @Dmitry, @Agathoklis, @Swedish Family

    Did Chopin even do anything with an orchestra when he was not having a tough time with all the menstruating?

    Maybe a single, nothing-standard piano concerto, but that is all. That is pathetic – all the truly great composers did Orchestral music, not just be single instrumentalists….. and I say this despite being the most piano-centric man on the planet, who hugely enjoys listening to recordings of Valentina Lisitsa’s magnificent playing of orchestral pieces solely with just the piano part ( like the Rakhmaninov piano concertos)

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Gerard.Gerard


    great composers did Orchestral music, not

     

    I'm not sure it's fair, especially in the 19th century - think about Schumann.

    Schumann - by far one of the greatest, most original, awesome composers of human history, but usually had to be pushed into orchestral writing by his wife Clara, and was reluctant to write for orchestra on his own motivation.

    And then everyone has mocked his orchestration methods, which were negatively influenced by his own work as a conductor - for example, as conductor he had some kind of phobia that he will send people to play at the wrong time, so he is constantly doubling instrumentation for no artistic purpose, except as insurance for his nervous conducting. As a result, Schumann orchestral works often, have comic effect of almost all instruments playing almost always.

    Schumann orchestral works are still very beloved masterpieces today, but his kind of "poor craftswork" in orchestration, definitely damaged his reputation with scholars and critics in the 19th century.

    And on the other extreme - there is Brahms, who by later career is recognized as absolute master of orchestration. But a significant part of his conceptions, or artistic worldview, he has inherited from Schumann.

    -

    So in terms of Chopin, it is probably a good idea that he did not waste time writing for orchestra beyond the piano concertos, if this is not where his inclination or training is, and if he could express the same conceptions more effectively on his native instrument.

    Chopin understands the possibilities of the piano of his epoch. He could have studied symphonic writing for years, and who knows what would be the final result. But then he would have less even time in his short life for his innovation in the piano.

    -

    By the way, a lot of how Chopin actually played and sounded has been lost in history. One of the strangest things to hear now, is that Chopin (also even Liszt) always played in metronomic time in the left hand. Of course, this is completely not like anyone is interpreting rubato for Chopin's works by the beginning of the 20th century.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

  92. @Thulean Friend
    The fact that the major two remaining Russian-ethnic countries - Ukraine and Belarus - is slipping out of the orbit of Russia is a big humiliation for Moscow. Ukraine is basically lost at this point. Belarus should still be salvageable, but while the opposition isn't anti-Russian it isn't necessarily pro-integration either. The most likely scenario is a new leader which keeps the current status quo, which would go against the integrationist dreams of Russia.

    It's not about culture. Those are post-hoc explanations/justifications. The issue is that Russia is barely above Mexico in GDPpc. For all the talk of identity and history, most people care more about immediate needs. The West is simply far richer than Russia and will remain so, and so there will be a natural lure in that direction. People who obsess about LGBT nonsense over "kitchen table issues" are a tiny and disconnected minority.

    Replies: @Christopher Porritt, @Dreadilk, @Svevlad, @Swedish Family, @mal, @Yevardian, @RadicalCenter, @Hugo Silva

    Ask the increasing number of Americans who is “obsessing over” i.e. systemstically glorifying sexual deviancy, mental illness, and destruction of normal families rather than “kitchen table issues.” Our rulers, that’s who, while we fall farther behind and struggle.

  93. @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I was interested in the state of Polish literature, not classical music. Also its quite foreign to me to think classical arts on the basis of gdp per capita.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Roger Zelazny is an excellent writer of Polish-American origin: his Chronicles of Amber is one of my favorite series of fiction.

  94. @Mr. Hack
    @Korenchkin

    It looks like the two are getting ready to go to a meeting of their mutual Masonic lodge. And who says that Russia will remain free of GloboHomoism? :-)

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

    If you’re chortling about the prospect of perverting and confusing Russian children the way “our” government / media / corporate / “school” establishment does here in the usa … well, that says more about you than about Russians.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @RadicalCenter

    No, I'm chortling and chuckling at the photo that depicts two brothers-in-arms shuffling off to the next Masonic meeting. By the looks of it, they're both dressed as if they belong to the same lodge. :-)

    http://www.bu.edu/files/2016/03/t_butoday_El-Jebel-Shriners-in-Robes.jpg

    FYI, here's the lodge that I belong to:

    https://3w8dlo2orf8y3crtc22sslbh-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SgtPepperGranFather.jpg

    I'm the one in simple dress circled in yellow; I would have proudly worn my vyshivanka, but it was at the dry cleaners when this group photo was taken. :-)

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @RadicalCenter

  95. @Thulean Friend
    The fact that the major two remaining Russian-ethnic countries - Ukraine and Belarus - is slipping out of the orbit of Russia is a big humiliation for Moscow. Ukraine is basically lost at this point. Belarus should still be salvageable, but while the opposition isn't anti-Russian it isn't necessarily pro-integration either. The most likely scenario is a new leader which keeps the current status quo, which would go against the integrationist dreams of Russia.

    It's not about culture. Those are post-hoc explanations/justifications. The issue is that Russia is barely above Mexico in GDPpc. For all the talk of identity and history, most people care more about immediate needs. The West is simply far richer than Russia and will remain so, and so there will be a natural lure in that direction. People who obsess about LGBT nonsense over "kitchen table issues" are a tiny and disconnected minority.

    Replies: @Christopher Porritt, @Dreadilk, @Svevlad, @Swedish Family, @mal, @Yevardian, @RadicalCenter, @Hugo Silva

    I Will have to agree with you, the West is simply a much more attractive model than a kleptocratic Russia or a despotic China, until the West starts collapsing on itself or the non-western countries provide an attractive alternative model the Liberal juggernaut will continue its march across the World!

  96. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AltanBakshi

    I mean, Chopin is a world class composer, along with Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, and Rachmaninov, and possibly Prokofiev from Russians. So, equal in per capita terms. Gerard suffers from PDS (Poland Derangement Syndrome) as surely as utu does from RDS.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Gerard.Gerard, @Dmitry, @Agathoklis, @Swedish Family

    world class composer,

    In what criteria Stravinsky and Prokofiev, but not Scriabin (or Musorgsky or Rimsky-Korsakov or Shostakovich)?

    If your criteria is something like “popularity with concert and music buying public, as well as reading public” – of course, Shostakovich is far more popular than either Stravinsky or Prokofiev, today. So if your criteria is just such kind of generic popularity, then Shostakovich is easily ahead of those, and even in the first or second position.

    You would have to ask people who work in the ticket selling for concert – but I would not be surprised Shostakovich symphony will generate more excitement and sales for a concert hall, than Tchaikovsky symphony. He is probably the most fashionable Russian composer from any epoch in some ways.

    I would agree that current audience listen less to famous pieces of Musorgsky and Rimsky-Korsakov’s today, but it’s partly because they were historically a victim of their own popularity. When their works were for a century in every school concert, advertising music, and Disney films – it became impossible to hear it like it as the modern works that were received by contemporaries.

    Perception of music – although to less extent than film or painting – suffers a lot by overexposure in the wrong context.

    Popularity also depends on instruments that people play. For a lot of pianists – Scriabin is considered at the top of the top of their favourite modern composers.

    That’s not saying the objective way to judge the value of composers in this way – by popularity. The objective basis needs quite significant of study the compositions against those of their contemporaries.

    I’m not expert, but as sloppy hobby amateur, I love to play Rachmaninov and Scriabin – and between the two great composers for piano, of course Scriabin is less commonly composing according to formula, or less feeling like they were built from Hanon exercises.

    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
    @Dmitry

    Excellent post. BTW, your thoughts on Glinka?

    I would agree that in popularity , or general public consciousness - Shostakovich is most popular , followed by Prokofiev then Stravinsky. For people who immerse themselves in classical music it is probably Stravinsky as the highest rated.

    As for Chopin,I have always felt that although he did many great pieces ( I only said that he wasn't Polish and that it was pathetic Poland hadn't produced ANY great orchestral composer!), a large amount of his compositions have become popular based more on the skill of the performer ahead of the skill of the composition. This may seem a strange thing to say - but I think you notice this issue when you wrote:


    One of the strangest things to hear now, is that Chopin always played in metronomic time in the left hand. Of course, this is completely not like anyone is interpreting rubato for Chopin’s works by the beginning of the 20th century
     
    Now of course better musicians and orchestras are going to make superior music that we all want to listen to - but this is disproportionately more for Chopin than it is for Bach,Beethoven, Rakhmaninov and all the others - I can just play the basic chord structure for a piece by those other guys and I know I am playing a masterpiece. As a decent pianist I can play famous pieces by those guys including Chopin, technically play them well....but only with Chopin will it sound like a nothing piece ( even if that piece is not at all technically demanding compared to Lizst , Rakhmaninov etc.) - it needs a very high quality pianist.
    Of course that opinion doesn't apply to something like his Waterfall Etude which is a great piece that I am technically unable to play decently

    Think of the Great American Songbook - many of these songs, as they were composed were total garbage - what made them great was amazing arrangements by great Big Bands or orchestras - some often 20-40 years after the song was originally written, that totally changed the essence of the original song and made them very popular.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

  97. @Gerard.Gerard
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Did Chopin even do anything with an orchestra when he was not having a tough time with all the menstruating?

    Maybe a single, nothing-standard piano concerto, but that is all. That is pathetic - all the truly great composers did Orchestral music, not just be single instrumentalists..... and I say this despite being the most piano-centric man on the planet, who hugely enjoys listening to recordings of Valentina Lisitsa's magnificent playing of orchestral pieces solely with just the piano part ( like the Rakhmaninov piano concertos)

    Replies: @Dmitry

    great composers did Orchestral music, not

    I’m not sure it’s fair, especially in the 19th century – think about Schumann.

    Schumann – by far one of the greatest, most original, awesome composers of human history, but usually had to be pushed into orchestral writing by his wife Clara, and was reluctant to write for orchestra on his own motivation.

    And then everyone has mocked his orchestration methods, which were negatively influenced by his own work as a conductor – for example, as conductor he had some kind of phobia that he will send people to play at the wrong time, so he is constantly doubling instrumentation for no artistic purpose, except as insurance for his nervous conducting. As a result, Schumann orchestral works often, have comic effect of almost all instruments playing almost always.

    Schumann orchestral works are still very beloved masterpieces today, but his kind of “poor craftswork” in orchestration, definitely damaged his reputation with scholars and critics in the 19th century.

    And on the other extreme – there is Brahms, who by later career is recognized as absolute master of orchestration. But a significant part of his conceptions, or artistic worldview, he has inherited from Schumann.

    So in terms of Chopin, it is probably a good idea that he did not waste time writing for orchestra beyond the piano concertos, if this is not where his inclination or training is, and if he could express the same conceptions more effectively on his native instrument.

    Chopin understands the possibilities of the piano of his epoch. He could have studied symphonic writing for years, and who knows what would be the final result. But then he would have less even time in his short life for his innovation in the piano.

    By the way, a lot of how Chopin actually played and sounded has been lost in history. One of the strangest things to hear now, is that Chopin (also even Liszt) always played in metronomic time in the left hand. Of course, this is completely not like anyone is interpreting rubato for Chopin’s works by the beginning of the 20th century.

    • Thanks: JL
    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
    @Dmitry

    Excellent comment about Schumann. Had not thought about it like that before - you are correct.


    Now, there are several great/masterpiece compositions that are 3,4,5,6 minutes long - but you have to add scale of the composition into your thoughts when classifying who is a great composer or not ( although the definition is of course arbitrary). Everybody else considered great is composing masterpieces incomparable longer than Chopin - Concertos, Symphonies,Operas, longer Sonatas etc. It does not seem to fair to classify Chopin with those greats because they are composing 30 minute, 120 minute masterpieces against 7 minutes from Chopin!

    Forgetting about the very complex Hammerklavier and other " late " Sonatas ( which are too complex for me to notice or understand all the genius in them, though I am sure you do)- the very popular 17,15,Moonlight, 12, Appassionata, Waldstein, Pathetique Sonatas by Beethoven are several minutes longer than the longest Chopin piece. Individual movements are often even longer than the longest Chopin one! Most of Chopin's pieces are 1/3rd to 1/2 repetition anyway ( completely different to Bach's genius inversions and other variations)

    Adding to this "length of piece" issue - I always view his pieces as individual Nocturnes or Etudes or Mazurkas etc - not as a series of pieces under one great composition of Nocturnes/Etudes. Unfairly or not - I view as a whole, single masterpiece the Goldberg variations and well-tempered Klavier by Bach, the orchestral Enigma variations by Elgar, Planet Suite by Holst etc. Nothing like that for Chopin , although maybe the Ballades should be seen as one whole great composition/art.

    Lizst individual piano compositions such as the Sonata in B minor are 40 - 45 minutes long. His shorter pieces ( 10 minutes of less) can be viewed great just like Chopin...but they are technically more complex to play.

    Replies: @Swedish Family, @Dmitry

  98. @RadicalCenter
    @Mr. Hack

    If you’re chortling about the prospect of perverting and confusing Russian children the way “our” government / media / corporate / “school” establishment does here in the usa ... well, that says more about you than about Russians.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    No, I’m chortling and chuckling at the photo that depicts two brothers-in-arms shuffling off to the next Masonic meeting. By the looks of it, they’re both dressed as if they belong to the same lodge. 🙂

    FYI, here’s the lodge that I belong to:

    I’m the one in simple dress circled in yellow; I would have proudly worn my vyshivanka, but it was at the dry cleaners when this group photo was taken. 🙂

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    Are you playing stupid or what? Bush and Putin participated a summit in Vietnam in 2006 and dressed in "traditional" Vietnamese garb. Also most American Masons have always been very distasteful larpers in my honest opinion. Even their secret societies are Disneyfied and full of kitch.

    By the way Mr. Hack I have understood that you are quite an Ukrainian patriot, even though you have been born and raised in US, so do you think that your children, if you have children, will continue your tradition of Ukrainian nationalism or not, or do they even identify as Ukrainians? Sometimes I think that maybe ethnic nationalism larping is somekind of exhaust valve for Americans who are tired of constant multiculturalism and universalism. Maybe you are just average American dude by the day, believing in one nation under God, where all are equal, and everyone can achieve his/her/xir/their dreams with a hard work, but during the night you are true a true Khokhol Cossack, defending your God given fatherland from evil Moskals and Sovoks in the endless battlegrounds of internet...

    But nationalism is larping for many Americans, especially for the Alt-Right, anyone who has even some rudimentary knowledge of Hitler, knows that he wasnt any white or Pan-European nationalist. He was first and foremost a German nationalist and didnt truly care of other European ethnicities, also he despised American culture. This last paragraph was not directed towards you Mr. Hack, just something that I have noticed.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @RadicalCenter
    @Mr. Hack

    Ah alright ;)
    You disarmed me with Sergeant Pepper’s, man.

    ROLL UP .....

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  99. @Mr. Hack
    @RadicalCenter

    No, I'm chortling and chuckling at the photo that depicts two brothers-in-arms shuffling off to the next Masonic meeting. By the looks of it, they're both dressed as if they belong to the same lodge. :-)

    http://www.bu.edu/files/2016/03/t_butoday_El-Jebel-Shriners-in-Robes.jpg

    FYI, here's the lodge that I belong to:

    https://3w8dlo2orf8y3crtc22sslbh-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SgtPepperGranFather.jpg

    I'm the one in simple dress circled in yellow; I would have proudly worn my vyshivanka, but it was at the dry cleaners when this group photo was taken. :-)

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @RadicalCenter

    Are you playing stupid or what? Bush and Putin participated a summit in Vietnam in 2006 and dressed in “traditional” Vietnamese garb. Also most American Masons have always been very distasteful larpers in my honest opinion. Even their secret societies are Disneyfied and full of kitch.

    By the way Mr. Hack I have understood that you are quite an Ukrainian patriot, even though you have been born and raised in US, so do you think that your children, if you have children, will continue your tradition of Ukrainian nationalism or not, or do they even identify as Ukrainians? Sometimes I think that maybe ethnic nationalism larping is somekind of exhaust valve for Americans who are tired of constant multiculturalism and universalism. Maybe you are just average American dude by the day, believing in one nation under God, where all are equal, and everyone can achieve his/her/xir/their dreams with a hard work, but during the night you are true a true Khokhol Cossack, defending your God given fatherland from evil Moskals and Sovoks in the endless battlegrounds of internet…

    But nationalism is larping for many Americans, especially for the Alt-Right, anyone who has even some rudimentary knowledge of Hitler, knows that he wasnt any white or Pan-European nationalist. He was first and foremost a German nationalist and didnt truly care of other European ethnicities, also he despised American culture. This last paragraph was not directed towards you Mr. Hack, just something that I have noticed.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    I don't have any children, therefore, there's no need for me to teach anybody about the evil Moskalchicki or Sovoks. Actually, since the time that I was born, my anti Soviet/Putler feelings have dovetailed quite seamlessly with American foreign policy values, as there really never has been any love lost between Russia and America. I never had to walk such a close tightrope act as our familiar commenter here Mike Averko has - the poor guy, it seems, has irritated Deep State agents, I hope he comes out Okay (see Philip Giraldi's latest thread). This experience might finally get him to write a book about his varied and interesting experiences? "My Life as a Russian Sympathizer"
    I'm sure that all of the background information that he's uncovered about Natalie Wood's family tree will serve him well with this grand writing experiment.

    How about you? Are you just some sort of an exotic troll manufactured within the bunker of some Troll factory in St. Petersberg, or are you a real scion of the Genghis Kahn clan whose read 2-3 books about the West and who enjoys pontificating at this blog without end?

    Replies: @Mikhail, @AltanBakshi

  100. @LG
    @utu

    Ruthenia is Latin for Russia. Belarus is called White Ruthenia because it was north of Kiev(an Rus), and in Old East Slavic the four cardinal directions each aligned with a color. White and north were linked. South was red. East was yellow, and west was black.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @utu, @Philip Owen

    “East was yellow”. – Are you saying that Russia is Yellow Rus? Like Asiatic?

  101. @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    Are you playing stupid or what? Bush and Putin participated a summit in Vietnam in 2006 and dressed in "traditional" Vietnamese garb. Also most American Masons have always been very distasteful larpers in my honest opinion. Even their secret societies are Disneyfied and full of kitch.

    By the way Mr. Hack I have understood that you are quite an Ukrainian patriot, even though you have been born and raised in US, so do you think that your children, if you have children, will continue your tradition of Ukrainian nationalism or not, or do they even identify as Ukrainians? Sometimes I think that maybe ethnic nationalism larping is somekind of exhaust valve for Americans who are tired of constant multiculturalism and universalism. Maybe you are just average American dude by the day, believing in one nation under God, where all are equal, and everyone can achieve his/her/xir/their dreams with a hard work, but during the night you are true a true Khokhol Cossack, defending your God given fatherland from evil Moskals and Sovoks in the endless battlegrounds of internet...

    But nationalism is larping for many Americans, especially for the Alt-Right, anyone who has even some rudimentary knowledge of Hitler, knows that he wasnt any white or Pan-European nationalist. He was first and foremost a German nationalist and didnt truly care of other European ethnicities, also he despised American culture. This last paragraph was not directed towards you Mr. Hack, just something that I have noticed.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I don’t have any children, therefore, there’s no need for me to teach anybody about the evil Moskalchicki or Sovoks. Actually, since the time that I was born, my anti Soviet/Putler feelings have dovetailed quite seamlessly with American foreign policy values, as there really never has been any love lost between Russia and America. I never had to walk such a close tightrope act as our familiar commenter here Mike Averko has – the poor guy, it seems, has irritated Deep State agents, I hope he comes out Okay (see Philip Giraldi’s latest thread). This experience might finally get him to write a book about his varied and interesting experiences? “My Life as a Russian Sympathizer”
    I’m sure that all of the background information that he’s uncovered about Natalie Wood’s family tree will serve him well with this grand writing experiment.

    How about you? Are you just some sort of an exotic troll manufactured within the bunker of some Troll factory in St. Petersberg, or are you a real scion of the Genghis Kahn clan whose read 2-3 books about the West and who enjoys pontificating at this blog without end?

    • Troll: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack


    Actually, since the time that I was born, my anti Soviet/Putler feelings have dovetailed quite seamlessly with American foreign policy values, as there really never has been any love lost between Russia and America.
     
    In historical terms, there's no reason why Russia and the US can't be on good terms.

    Russia didn't fight two world wars against the US like Germany. Keep in mind the Brits relative to 1776, 1812 and the US Civil War.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    Mike Averko, Natalie Woods? Who the hell they are? Please try to be coherent and stop rambling?

    Unlike you I have skin in the game, many commentators here do have, even AP, for he has lived in Russia, or so I have understood, even Germans and Chinese have more skin in the game than you have, at least their countries have important economic relations with Russia, unlike US, you silly American larper and your even sillier troll accusations, too much Rachel Maddow and WaPo I presume? Or did I hit a nerve? That would explain why you wouldnt confront my highly hypothetical statements about you, so troll accusation was only counter argument that you could muster. Therefore I think my superficial analysis hit the nail on the head!

    Replies: @JL, @Mr. Hack

  102. @LG
    @utu

    Ruthenia is Latin for Russia. Belarus is called White Ruthenia because it was north of Kiev(an Rus), and in Old East Slavic the four cardinal directions each aligned with a color. White and north were linked. South was red. East was yellow, and west was black.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @utu, @Philip Owen

    I came across that as a Mongol view of direction with a 5th point of the compass, like the Irish, being Here. “Here” is gold in colour in the Mongol version. West was White in Mongol, hence White Russia for those Rus peoples they hadn’t conquered.

  103. @Dmitry
    @Anatoly Karlin


    world class composer,
     
    In what criteria Stravinsky and Prokofiev, but not Scriabin (or Musorgsky or Rimsky-Korsakov or Shostakovich)?

    If your criteria is something like "popularity with concert and music buying public, as well as reading public" - of course, Shostakovich is far more popular than either Stravinsky or Prokofiev, today. So if your criteria is just such kind of generic popularity, then Shostakovich is easily ahead of those, and even in the first or second position.

    You would have to ask people who work in the ticket selling for concert - but I would not be surprised Shostakovich symphony will generate more excitement and sales for a concert hall, than Tchaikovsky symphony. He is probably the most fashionable Russian composer from any epoch in some ways.

    -

    I would agree that current audience listen less to famous pieces of Musorgsky and Rimsky-Korsakov's today, but it's partly because they were historically a victim of their own popularity. When their works were for a century in every school concert, advertising music, and Disney films - it became impossible to hear it like it as the modern works that were received by contemporaries.

    Perception of music - although to less extent than film or painting - suffers a lot by overexposure in the wrong context.

    -

    Popularity also depends on instruments that people play. For a lot of pianists - Scriabin is considered at the top of the top of their favourite modern composers.

    -

    That's not saying the objective way to judge the value of composers in this way - by popularity. The objective basis needs quite significant of study the compositions against those of their contemporaries.

    I'm not expert, but as sloppy hobby amateur, I love to play Rachmaninov and Scriabin - and between the two great composers for piano, of course Scriabin is less commonly composing according to formula, or less feeling like they were built from Hanon exercises.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

    Excellent post. BTW, your thoughts on Glinka?

    I would agree that in popularity , or general public consciousness – Shostakovich is most popular , followed by Prokofiev then Stravinsky. For people who immerse themselves in classical music it is probably Stravinsky as the highest rated.

    As for Chopin,I have always felt that although he did many great pieces ( I only said that he wasn’t Polish and that it was pathetic Poland hadn’t produced ANY great orchestral composer!), a large amount of his compositions have become popular based more on the skill of the performer ahead of the skill of the composition. This may seem a strange thing to say – but I think you notice this issue when you wrote:

    One of the strangest things to hear now, is that Chopin always played in metronomic time in the left hand. Of course, this is completely not like anyone is interpreting rubato for Chopin’s works by the beginning of the 20th century

    Now of course better musicians and orchestras are going to make superior music that we all want to listen to – but this is disproportionately more for Chopin than it is for Bach,Beethoven, Rakhmaninov and all the others – I can just play the basic chord structure for a piece by those other guys and I know I am playing a masterpiece. As a decent pianist I can play famous pieces by those guys including Chopin, technically play them well….but only with Chopin will it sound like a nothing piece ( even if that piece is not at all technically demanding compared to Lizst , Rakhmaninov etc.) – it needs a very high quality pianist.
    Of course that opinion doesn’t apply to something like his Waterfall Etude which is a great piece that I am technically unable to play decently

    Think of the Great American Songbook – many of these songs, as they were composed were total garbage – what made them great was amazing arrangements by great Big Bands or orchestras – some often 20-40 years after the song was originally written, that totally changed the essence of the original song and made them very popular.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @Gerard-Mandela

    Stravinsky is clearly very innovative but Prokofiev, in my opinion, combines innovation and musicality much more successfully. Of course, Shostakovich his voluminous works are amazing and is generally better than both. But Prokofiev's peaks are better.

  104. @Gerard.Gerard
    @utu


    Both Chaikovsky and phallic hard rockets may come handy when proselytising Russia's cause in the gay community. Even Russia's soft power is hard
     
    That comment could almost win the Internet...... except for the inconvenient fact that in addition to Chaikovsky, Russia has Rakhmaninov, Shostakovich, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Borodin, Glinka, Scriabin, Stravinsky. That is a mass of great, genius composers loved and known throughout the world.

    Poland has?........... LOL..... (insert some mathematical formula of a rapidly expanding black hole)

    Poland has done ZERO contribution to classical music and the entire western culture in the last 500 years. Embarrassingly, small Armenia, which isn't even European, has contributed more to the west than Poland because of the world-renowned composer Khachaturian.
    It's unfortunate that great Armenian Konyak is not sold in the west because if it was, then it would surpass the number of Polish products sold in the west.

    Before you mention (pathetically the only one you can) Chopin, remember that:

    1. He was ethnically French
    2. Only had sex with French women
    3. Composed everything in France (and possibly in Majorca, of course nothing in Poland)
    4. Died in France
    5. Airport in Poland named after him
    probably because its the first place he would have gone to in Poland if they existed at the time
    6. I don't know--did he even speak Polish?
    7. Absolutely nothing derivative from his work in Poland--completely different to the great Russian, German, Hungarian, French, Italian and British composers who influenced or created other respected composers, conductors and musicians who trained directly under them.... because he wasn't Polish--there was nothing of that for Poland
    8.Bizarrely and idiotically Poles tried to claim after-death, of some of Chopin pieces being "Polish style/culture " or "dedicated to Poland" - not because of anything he said or wrote, but based solely on the fact that........ many of his pieces were suicidally sounding faggotry, which Polish nationalists assumed must have been dedicated to them

    I can as reflex action name 25 great Russian writers without a thought entering my brain. Nobody in the world can name any Polish writer

    Our contributions in science and engineering are too much for any blog post. Non-Jewish Polish contributions are....... noneexistant.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Philip Owen, @Agathoklis, @Rich

    Copernicus, Marie Curie and Mandelbrot come to mind. There are probably others.

    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
    @Philip Owen

    500 years ago, French, Jew

  105. Daniel Chieh – really?…I though that I answered his questions rather head on, directly. What’s your problem? He may be somebody getting paid to comment here? Maybe I am? Maybe you are? It’s a legitimate question. You’re naive to think that no professional trolls monitor the goings on at this site. It’s a perfect place to ply your trade if you’re a paid troll, the Russian and East European slant of the blog is ideal. 🙂

  106. @Mr. Hack
    @RadicalCenter

    No, I'm chortling and chuckling at the photo that depicts two brothers-in-arms shuffling off to the next Masonic meeting. By the looks of it, they're both dressed as if they belong to the same lodge. :-)

    http://www.bu.edu/files/2016/03/t_butoday_El-Jebel-Shriners-in-Robes.jpg

    FYI, here's the lodge that I belong to:

    https://3w8dlo2orf8y3crtc22sslbh-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SgtPepperGranFather.jpg

    I'm the one in simple dress circled in yellow; I would have proudly worn my vyshivanka, but it was at the dry cleaners when this group photo was taken. :-)

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @RadicalCenter

    Ah alright 😉
    You disarmed me with Sergeant Pepper’s, man.

    ROLL UP …..

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @RadicalCenter

    "ROLL UP" was actually the refrain from the first tune on "The Magical Mystery Tour album" that for all intents and purposes was just a continuation of the "Sgt. Pepper's" album. Russians, Ukrainians and Belorusians were all always fascinated with the Fab Four:

    https://youtu.be/OVwjyteZx3c

  107. @RadicalCenter
    @Mr. Hack

    Ah alright ;)
    You disarmed me with Sergeant Pepper’s, man.

    ROLL UP .....

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    “ROLL UP” was actually the refrain from the first tune on “The Magical Mystery Tour album” that for all intents and purposes was just a continuation of the “Sgt. Pepper’s” album. Russians, Ukrainians and Belorusians were all always fascinated with the Fab Four:

    • Thanks: RadicalCenter
  108. @Philip Owen
    @Gerard.Gerard

    Copernicus, Marie Curie and Mandelbrot come to mind. There are probably others.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

    500 years ago, French, Jew

  109. @Gerard.Gerard
    @utu


    Both Chaikovsky and phallic hard rockets may come handy when proselytising Russia's cause in the gay community. Even Russia's soft power is hard
     
    That comment could almost win the Internet...... except for the inconvenient fact that in addition to Chaikovsky, Russia has Rakhmaninov, Shostakovich, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Borodin, Glinka, Scriabin, Stravinsky. That is a mass of great, genius composers loved and known throughout the world.

    Poland has?........... LOL..... (insert some mathematical formula of a rapidly expanding black hole)

    Poland has done ZERO contribution to classical music and the entire western culture in the last 500 years. Embarrassingly, small Armenia, which isn't even European, has contributed more to the west than Poland because of the world-renowned composer Khachaturian.
    It's unfortunate that great Armenian Konyak is not sold in the west because if it was, then it would surpass the number of Polish products sold in the west.

    Before you mention (pathetically the only one you can) Chopin, remember that:

    1. He was ethnically French
    2. Only had sex with French women
    3. Composed everything in France (and possibly in Majorca, of course nothing in Poland)
    4. Died in France
    5. Airport in Poland named after him
    probably because its the first place he would have gone to in Poland if they existed at the time
    6. I don't know--did he even speak Polish?
    7. Absolutely nothing derivative from his work in Poland--completely different to the great Russian, German, Hungarian, French, Italian and British composers who influenced or created other respected composers, conductors and musicians who trained directly under them.... because he wasn't Polish--there was nothing of that for Poland
    8.Bizarrely and idiotically Poles tried to claim after-death, of some of Chopin pieces being "Polish style/culture " or "dedicated to Poland" - not because of anything he said or wrote, but based solely on the fact that........ many of his pieces were suicidally sounding faggotry, which Polish nationalists assumed must have been dedicated to them

    I can as reflex action name 25 great Russian writers without a thought entering my brain. Nobody in the world can name any Polish writer

    Our contributions in science and engineering are too much for any blog post. Non-Jewish Polish contributions are....... noneexistant.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Philip Owen, @Agathoklis, @Rich

    Armenians are Europeans.

    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
    @Agathoklis

    Thanks for the correction.

    , @Yevardian
    @Agathoklis

    Don't you dare associate us with whitoids.

    Personally, I always felt Chaikovsky was mostly a composer of overdramatic (unsurprising given his personal background) kitsch, there are many much superior Russian composers, Borodin, Korsokov outclassed him even in his native genre of thematic music.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  110. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AltanBakshi

    I mean, Chopin is a world class composer, along with Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, and Rachmaninov, and possibly Prokofiev from Russians. So, equal in per capita terms. Gerard suffers from PDS (Poland Derangement Syndrome) as surely as utu does from RDS.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Gerard.Gerard, @Dmitry, @Agathoklis, @Swedish Family

    Personally, I think Prokofiev is better than all of those composers with the exception of Shostakovich. His Cinderella is genius.

  111. There are 2 wikipedias in the so-called “Belarusian language” (really a polonised Russian dialect) – be.wikipedia.org (in Narkomovka, the official version used during the Soviet era) and be-tarask.wikipedia.org (in Tarashkevitsa, the version preferred by zmagars). If there are enough zmagar sympathisers at Wikipedia, it wouldn’t surprise me if the Narkomovka version disappears and the Tarashkevitsa version becomes the sole Belarusian language Wikipedia.

  112. @Gerard-Mandela
    @Dmitry

    Excellent post. BTW, your thoughts on Glinka?

    I would agree that in popularity , or general public consciousness - Shostakovich is most popular , followed by Prokofiev then Stravinsky. For people who immerse themselves in classical music it is probably Stravinsky as the highest rated.

    As for Chopin,I have always felt that although he did many great pieces ( I only said that he wasn't Polish and that it was pathetic Poland hadn't produced ANY great orchestral composer!), a large amount of his compositions have become popular based more on the skill of the performer ahead of the skill of the composition. This may seem a strange thing to say - but I think you notice this issue when you wrote:


    One of the strangest things to hear now, is that Chopin always played in metronomic time in the left hand. Of course, this is completely not like anyone is interpreting rubato for Chopin’s works by the beginning of the 20th century
     
    Now of course better musicians and orchestras are going to make superior music that we all want to listen to - but this is disproportionately more for Chopin than it is for Bach,Beethoven, Rakhmaninov and all the others - I can just play the basic chord structure for a piece by those other guys and I know I am playing a masterpiece. As a decent pianist I can play famous pieces by those guys including Chopin, technically play them well....but only with Chopin will it sound like a nothing piece ( even if that piece is not at all technically demanding compared to Lizst , Rakhmaninov etc.) - it needs a very high quality pianist.
    Of course that opinion doesn't apply to something like his Waterfall Etude which is a great piece that I am technically unable to play decently

    Think of the Great American Songbook - many of these songs, as they were composed were total garbage - what made them great was amazing arrangements by great Big Bands or orchestras - some often 20-40 years after the song was originally written, that totally changed the essence of the original song and made them very popular.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

    Stravinsky is clearly very innovative but Prokofiev, in my opinion, combines innovation and musicality much more successfully. Of course, Shostakovich his voluminous works are amazing and is generally better than both. But Prokofiev’s peaks are better.

  113. @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    I don't have any children, therefore, there's no need for me to teach anybody about the evil Moskalchicki or Sovoks. Actually, since the time that I was born, my anti Soviet/Putler feelings have dovetailed quite seamlessly with American foreign policy values, as there really never has been any love lost between Russia and America. I never had to walk such a close tightrope act as our familiar commenter here Mike Averko has - the poor guy, it seems, has irritated Deep State agents, I hope he comes out Okay (see Philip Giraldi's latest thread). This experience might finally get him to write a book about his varied and interesting experiences? "My Life as a Russian Sympathizer"
    I'm sure that all of the background information that he's uncovered about Natalie Wood's family tree will serve him well with this grand writing experiment.

    How about you? Are you just some sort of an exotic troll manufactured within the bunker of some Troll factory in St. Petersberg, or are you a real scion of the Genghis Kahn clan whose read 2-3 books about the West and who enjoys pontificating at this blog without end?

    Replies: @Mikhail, @AltanBakshi

    Actually, since the time that I was born, my anti Soviet/Putler feelings have dovetailed quite seamlessly with American foreign policy values, as there really never has been any love lost between Russia and America.

    In historical terms, there’s no reason why Russia and the US can’t be on good terms.

    Russia didn’t fight two world wars against the US like Germany. Keep in mind the Brits relative to 1776, 1812 and the US Civil War.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    I meant what I wrote about you:


    I hope he comes out Okay (see Philip Giraldi’s latest thread).
     
    It's seldom that I agree with any of your conclusions, but I think that you should have every right in the world to express yourself without being harassed.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  114. @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    I don't have any children, therefore, there's no need for me to teach anybody about the evil Moskalchicki or Sovoks. Actually, since the time that I was born, my anti Soviet/Putler feelings have dovetailed quite seamlessly with American foreign policy values, as there really never has been any love lost between Russia and America. I never had to walk such a close tightrope act as our familiar commenter here Mike Averko has - the poor guy, it seems, has irritated Deep State agents, I hope he comes out Okay (see Philip Giraldi's latest thread). This experience might finally get him to write a book about his varied and interesting experiences? "My Life as a Russian Sympathizer"
    I'm sure that all of the background information that he's uncovered about Natalie Wood's family tree will serve him well with this grand writing experiment.

    How about you? Are you just some sort of an exotic troll manufactured within the bunker of some Troll factory in St. Petersberg, or are you a real scion of the Genghis Kahn clan whose read 2-3 books about the West and who enjoys pontificating at this blog without end?

    Replies: @Mikhail, @AltanBakshi

    Mike Averko, Natalie Woods? Who the hell they are? Please try to be coherent and stop rambling?

    Unlike you I have skin in the game, many commentators here do have, even AP, for he has lived in Russia, or so I have understood, even Germans and Chinese have more skin in the game than you have, at least their countries have important economic relations with Russia, unlike US, you silly American larper and your even sillier troll accusations, too much Rachel Maddow and WaPo I presume? Or did I hit a nerve? That would explain why you wouldnt confront my highly hypothetical statements about you, so troll accusation was only counter argument that you could muster. Therefore I think my superficial analysis hit the nail on the head!

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @JL
    @AltanBakshi


    Mike Averko
     
    You've never heard of Mike Averko?! That must mean you're spending too much time on Johnson's Russia List, which only props court-appointed friendlies and forces out more varied venues.

    my superficial analysis hit the nail on the head
     
    Indeed, dual loyalists like Hack are symbolic of everything that's wrong with modern America. It's comical how he refers to the US' disastrous foreign policy as some kind of self confirmation. Hack is basically a Jew in a vyshivanka.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Mr. Hack, @AltanBakshi

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    I answered your questions and let you know a bit about myself; how about you? Not a word about your own background, so, who's hit a nerve for whom, you hot winded windbag?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  115. @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    Mike Averko, Natalie Woods? Who the hell they are? Please try to be coherent and stop rambling?

    Unlike you I have skin in the game, many commentators here do have, even AP, for he has lived in Russia, or so I have understood, even Germans and Chinese have more skin in the game than you have, at least their countries have important economic relations with Russia, unlike US, you silly American larper and your even sillier troll accusations, too much Rachel Maddow and WaPo I presume? Or did I hit a nerve? That would explain why you wouldnt confront my highly hypothetical statements about you, so troll accusation was only counter argument that you could muster. Therefore I think my superficial analysis hit the nail on the head!

    Replies: @JL, @Mr. Hack

    Mike Averko

    You’ve never heard of Mike Averko?! That must mean you’re spending too much time on Johnson’s Russia List, which only props court-appointed friendlies and forces out more varied venues.

    my superficial analysis hit the nail on the head

    Indeed, dual loyalists like Hack are symbolic of everything that’s wrong with modern America. It’s comical how he refers to the US’ disastrous foreign policy as some kind of self confirmation. Hack is basically a Jew in a vyshivanka.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @JL

    Your very last point aside, humor can have truth.

    , @Mr. Hack
    @JL

    I'll gladly wear my vishivanka underneath a sports jacket designed by Ralph Lauren than what I envision your garb looks like:

    https://topic.imgix.net/usq/d19d5e7f-4618-4597-a298-7bdb00f9a355/c423d846-dff7-4068-95f2-abd95d69acc0.png?auto=compress,format&cs=srgb&w=1400&_=12a8f51d081bba36c2917056c8b451ae&bg=%23ffffff

    America
    IT guy who’s not-so-secretly into white nationalism on the weekend.

    1. White polo shirt, khakis, and mirrored sunglasses
    2. Shield with Italian fascist symbol: bundle of sticks around an axe handle, sometimes carried by an eagle
    3. Backpack with buckled chest strap
    4. Sensible shoes

    WHAT HE BELIEVES: The Vanguard America aficionado might sport a paramilitary look inspired by its “commander” and founder, a retired U.S. Marine who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. The rank-and-file Vanguard America vibe is also typified by white polo shirts, khakis, and sensible shoes, as widely seen in Charlottesville. The group subscribes to the usual smorgasbord of white-nationalist and supremacist views, with more overtly neo-Nazi associations than groups like Identity Evropa and the Proud Boys. The Nazi-inspired “blood and soil” chant heard in Charlottesville was widely used by members of Vanguard America, who sported homemade “shields” bearing Italian fascist-style symbols.

    , @AltanBakshi
    @JL

    Johnson’s Russia List? Thanks for the hint, never have heard of that before.

    Dual loyalties seem to be a huge problem in America. Its very sad what happened to that great country, I may seem very Anti-American and so I am, but only towards modern America, but my view is more nuanced with the America of the past. Many founding fathers seemed to be genuinely honest and good men, still slavery, Christian idealism and Enlightenment values together were a ticking time bomb....

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  116. @Agathoklis
    @Gerard.Gerard

    Armenians are Europeans.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela, @Yevardian

    Thanks for the correction.

  117. @Dmitry
    @Gerard.Gerard


    great composers did Orchestral music, not

     

    I'm not sure it's fair, especially in the 19th century - think about Schumann.

    Schumann - by far one of the greatest, most original, awesome composers of human history, but usually had to be pushed into orchestral writing by his wife Clara, and was reluctant to write for orchestra on his own motivation.

    And then everyone has mocked his orchestration methods, which were negatively influenced by his own work as a conductor - for example, as conductor he had some kind of phobia that he will send people to play at the wrong time, so he is constantly doubling instrumentation for no artistic purpose, except as insurance for his nervous conducting. As a result, Schumann orchestral works often, have comic effect of almost all instruments playing almost always.

    Schumann orchestral works are still very beloved masterpieces today, but his kind of "poor craftswork" in orchestration, definitely damaged his reputation with scholars and critics in the 19th century.

    And on the other extreme - there is Brahms, who by later career is recognized as absolute master of orchestration. But a significant part of his conceptions, or artistic worldview, he has inherited from Schumann.

    -

    So in terms of Chopin, it is probably a good idea that he did not waste time writing for orchestra beyond the piano concertos, if this is not where his inclination or training is, and if he could express the same conceptions more effectively on his native instrument.

    Chopin understands the possibilities of the piano of his epoch. He could have studied symphonic writing for years, and who knows what would be the final result. But then he would have less even time in his short life for his innovation in the piano.

    -

    By the way, a lot of how Chopin actually played and sounded has been lost in history. One of the strangest things to hear now, is that Chopin (also even Liszt) always played in metronomic time in the left hand. Of course, this is completely not like anyone is interpreting rubato for Chopin's works by the beginning of the 20th century.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

    Excellent comment about Schumann. Had not thought about it like that before – you are correct.

    Now, there are several great/masterpiece compositions that are 3,4,5,6 minutes long – but you have to add scale of the composition into your thoughts when classifying who is a great composer or not ( although the definition is of course arbitrary). Everybody else considered great is composing masterpieces incomparable longer than Chopin – Concertos, Symphonies,Operas, longer Sonatas etc. It does not seem to fair to classify Chopin with those greats because they are composing 30 minute, 120 minute masterpieces against 7 minutes from Chopin!

    Forgetting about the very complex Hammerklavier and other ” late ” Sonatas ( which are too complex for me to notice or understand all the genius in them, though I am sure you do)- the very popular 17,15,Moonlight, 12, Appassionata, Waldstein, Pathetique Sonatas by Beethoven are several minutes longer than the longest Chopin piece. Individual movements are often even longer than the longest Chopin one! Most of Chopin’s pieces are 1/3rd to 1/2 repetition anyway ( completely different to Bach’s genius inversions and other variations)

    Adding to this “length of piece” issue – I always view his pieces as individual Nocturnes or Etudes or Mazurkas etc – not as a series of pieces under one great composition of Nocturnes/Etudes. Unfairly or not – I view as a whole, single masterpiece the Goldberg variations and well-tempered Klavier by Bach, the orchestral Enigma variations by Elgar, Planet Suite by Holst etc. Nothing like that for Chopin , although maybe the Ballades should be seen as one whole great composition/art.

    Lizst individual piano compositions such as the Sonata in B minor are 40 – 45 minutes long. His shorter pieces ( 10 minutes of less) can be viewed great just like Chopin…but they are technically more complex to play.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    @Gerard-Mandela


    Adding to this “length of piece” issue – I always view his pieces as individual Nocturnes or Etudes or Mazurkas etc – not as a series of pieces under one great composition of Nocturnes/Etudes. Unfairly or not – I view as a whole, single masterpiece the Goldberg variations and well-tempered Klavier by Bach, the orchestral Enigma variations by Elgar, Planet Suite by Holst etc. Nothing like that for Chopin , although maybe the Ballades should be seen as one whole great composition/art.
     
    I think his preludes qualify. Look up the Martha Argerich recordings from the 70s.
    , @Dmitry
    @Gerard-Mandela

    Chopin's piano writing has quite a lot of orchestral aspects in it - for example the imitations in the right hand (which require quite a lot of jumping across).

    I wonder if symphonic writing of Brahms is influenced quite a lot by Chopin's right hand on piano, as there are obviously related patterns.


    “length of piece” issue – I always view his pieces as individual Nocturnes or Etudes or Mazurkas etc – not as a series of pieces under one great composition of Nocturnes/Etudes.
     
    Chopin's piano sonatas are quite an ambitious and long works.

    Although it is true, for example with the second sonata, that the movements were composed separately. For example, the funeral march, was composed separately, and then some aspects of it used as inspiration for the first two movements.

    And the relation between the funeral march and the strange and uncanny final movement (which Godowsky is playing interesting) is not really clear.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBoY2XVxDII

  118. @JL
    @AltanBakshi


    Mike Averko
     
    You've never heard of Mike Averko?! That must mean you're spending too much time on Johnson's Russia List, which only props court-appointed friendlies and forces out more varied venues.

    my superficial analysis hit the nail on the head
     
    Indeed, dual loyalists like Hack are symbolic of everything that's wrong with modern America. It's comical how he refers to the US' disastrous foreign policy as some kind of self confirmation. Hack is basically a Jew in a vyshivanka.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Mr. Hack, @AltanBakshi

    Your very last point aside, humor can have truth.

  119. @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    Mike Averko, Natalie Woods? Who the hell they are? Please try to be coherent and stop rambling?

    Unlike you I have skin in the game, many commentators here do have, even AP, for he has lived in Russia, or so I have understood, even Germans and Chinese have more skin in the game than you have, at least their countries have important economic relations with Russia, unlike US, you silly American larper and your even sillier troll accusations, too much Rachel Maddow and WaPo I presume? Or did I hit a nerve? That would explain why you wouldnt confront my highly hypothetical statements about you, so troll accusation was only counter argument that you could muster. Therefore I think my superficial analysis hit the nail on the head!

    Replies: @JL, @Mr. Hack

    I answered your questions and let you know a bit about myself; how about you? Not a word about your own background, so, who’s hit a nerve for whom, you hot winded windbag?

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    You can read my past posts and deduce yourself, for I have already told quite much about myself here on this site.

  120. @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack


    Actually, since the time that I was born, my anti Soviet/Putler feelings have dovetailed quite seamlessly with American foreign policy values, as there really never has been any love lost between Russia and America.
     
    In historical terms, there's no reason why Russia and the US can't be on good terms.

    Russia didn't fight two world wars against the US like Germany. Keep in mind the Brits relative to 1776, 1812 and the US Civil War.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I meant what I wrote about you:

    I hope he comes out Okay (see Philip Giraldi’s latest thread).

    It’s seldom that I agree with any of your conclusions, but I think that you should have every right in the world to express yourself without being harassed.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    I came out of all of this in a much better position:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2020/08/18/us-foreign-policy-establishments-obsession-with-russia/

    As for being anti-Communist, while opposing McCarthyism:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2020/08/12/censoring-cancel-culture-against-russia/

    What apparently might've triggered all or much of the hoopla:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2020/05/24/what-evelyn-fakas-trey-gowdy-and-some-others-dubiously-have-in-common/

    Related:

    http://markcrispinmiller.com/2020/07/a-visit-from-the-fbi/

    https://www.yonkerstribune.com/2020/07/averko-in-the-new-york-times-by-michael-averko#comments

    https://www.yonkerstribune.com/2020/05/what-evelyn-farkas-trey-gowdy-and-some-others-dubiously-have-in-common-by-michael-averko#comments

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  121. @JL
    @AltanBakshi


    Mike Averko
     
    You've never heard of Mike Averko?! That must mean you're spending too much time on Johnson's Russia List, which only props court-appointed friendlies and forces out more varied venues.

    my superficial analysis hit the nail on the head
     
    Indeed, dual loyalists like Hack are symbolic of everything that's wrong with modern America. It's comical how he refers to the US' disastrous foreign policy as some kind of self confirmation. Hack is basically a Jew in a vyshivanka.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Mr. Hack, @AltanBakshi

    I’ll gladly wear my vishivanka underneath a sports jacket designed by Ralph Lauren than what I envision your garb looks like:

    https://topic.imgix.net/usq/d19d5e7f-4618-4597-a298-7bdb00f9a355/c423d846-dff7-4068-95f2-abd95d69acc0.png?auto=compress,format&cs=srgb&w=1400&_=12a8f51d081bba36c2917056c8b451ae&bg=%23ffffff

    America
    IT guy who’s not-so-secretly into white nationalism on the weekend.

    1. White polo shirt, khakis, and mirrored sunglasses
    2. Shield with Italian fascist symbol: bundle of sticks around an axe handle, sometimes carried by an eagle
    3. Backpack with buckled chest strap
    4. Sensible shoes

    WHAT HE BELIEVES: The Vanguard America aficionado might sport a paramilitary look inspired by its “commander” and founder, a retired U.S. Marine who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. The rank-and-file Vanguard America vibe is also typified by white polo shirts, khakis, and sensible shoes, as widely seen in Charlottesville. The group subscribes to the usual smorgasbord of white-nationalist and supremacist views, with more overtly neo-Nazi associations than groups like Identity Evropa and the Proud Boys. The Nazi-inspired “blood and soil” chant heard in Charlottesville was widely used by members of Vanguard America, who sported homemade “shields” bearing Italian fascist-style symbols.

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Troll: AltanBakshi
  122. @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    I answered your questions and let you know a bit about myself; how about you? Not a word about your own background, so, who's hit a nerve for whom, you hot winded windbag?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    You can read my past posts and deduce yourself, for I have already told quite much about myself here on this site.

    • Disagree: Mr. Hack
  123. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AltanBakshi

    I mean, Chopin is a world class composer, along with Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, and Rachmaninov, and possibly Prokofiev from Russians. So, equal in per capita terms. Gerard suffers from PDS (Poland Derangement Syndrome) as surely as utu does from RDS.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Gerard.Gerard, @Dmitry, @Agathoklis, @Swedish Family

    I mean, Chopin is a world class composer, along with Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, and Rachmaninov, and possibly Prokofiev from Russians. So, equal in per capita terms.

    Tchaikovsky surely is a league above these others you name.

    There are greats and there are titans. In world letters, Pushkin, Turgenev, and Goncharov (and many others) are greats but not titans, while Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Chekhov, Bulgakov, and Nabokov (some would also add Gogol — and maybe Solzhenitsyn) are all titans.

    In classical music, there are only four credible titans: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Tchaikovsky.* Tchaikovsky therefore can’t be likened to any other Russian composer (or indeed Chopin). His is the realm of Shakespeare, Picasso, and Kubrick.

    * This argument does not reflect my own taste. Myself, I would demote Beethoven and Mozart and give the top spot to Ravel.

    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
    @Swedish Family

    What does Rakhmaninov have to do to get into that list? Is your thinking that he does not have the scale or variety of repertoire as Chaikovsky and the others?

    When they were naming the airports in Russia last year, the first names that came to my head in who gives me the greatest satisfaction to be Russian were Rakhmaninov, Pushkin and Zhukov. All entirely subjective of course - and we do have an ocean of great names to select from


    In classical music, there are only four credible titans: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Tchaikovsky
     
    I would agree that those 4 have probably acquired the highest rating for the general public during history. Chaikovsky has the advantage over this compared to Rakhmaninov because his popularity was at the peak of the British Empire and of (relative) russophilia in Germany. This puts him in an advanced position ahead of Rakhmaninov at the start of the radio era. Even though he wasn't alive then, but Rakhmaninov was, the 20,30,40 year "start" ahead of Rakhmaninov makes Chaikovsky's music an established part of the repertoire for all famous orchestras and musicians at the beginning of the recording industry , public broadcasting and mass use of radios.
    I can see this helping him in popularity in the 1910,1920's.....possibly even as late as the 1930's! It sounds ridiculous for the modern era that one mans music from 60 years before, recorded after his death can be consumed by the public more than one guy still living and written 20 years before - but I think that is how it worked then.

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    , @Dmitry
    @Swedish Family


    titans: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Tchaikovsky

     

    Taste and perception of music is subjective, and we all will enjoy composers' works in somewhat different degrees, depending on our own personality.

    However, there is also an objective component in music history, that can be analyzed in more technical way.

    So while it's surely plausible that you enjoy Tchaikovsky's works as much as those of Beethoven - and that this is true for millions of people.

    On the other hand, there is no comparison of their position in musical history. We will find in some of Beethoven's piano sonatas more innovations, than in Tchaikovsky's symphonies. And Beethoven is producing such kind of revolutionary works every few months in some of his creative years.

    You can only say Beethoven is a different class of genius. Even Beethoven's works might be distasteful or personally disliked by a person from a subjective point of view, and that individually (and without seeing their context in music history) such works are not all better than works of many great 19th century composers that came after him.

    -

    That's not to say Tchaikovsky is not an important composer even in history of the symphony, or music in Russia, and he is of course the world's most important composer in the history of ballet music.

    If you are talking in terms of popularity of composers in the West and in Russia. Tchaikovsky was extremely promoted in the Soviet times. I think that quality and expertise for playing Tchaikovsky has fallen in recent decades though - the best performances of his symphonies are from Soviet times. Most fans would still go first to the Mravinsky's recordings of Tchaikovsky's later symphonies. Or even Kurt Sanderling's recordings is also more preferred than most of modern performances.

  124. @JL
    @AltanBakshi


    Mike Averko
     
    You've never heard of Mike Averko?! That must mean you're spending too much time on Johnson's Russia List, which only props court-appointed friendlies and forces out more varied venues.

    my superficial analysis hit the nail on the head
     
    Indeed, dual loyalists like Hack are symbolic of everything that's wrong with modern America. It's comical how he refers to the US' disastrous foreign policy as some kind of self confirmation. Hack is basically a Jew in a vyshivanka.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Mr. Hack, @AltanBakshi

    Johnson’s Russia List? Thanks for the hint, never have heard of that before.

    Dual loyalties seem to be a huge problem in America. Its very sad what happened to that great country, I may seem very Anti-American and so I am, but only towards modern America, but my view is more nuanced with the America of the past. Many founding fathers seemed to be genuinely honest and good men, still slavery, Christian idealism and Enlightenment values together were a ticking time bomb….

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @AltanBakshi


    Johnson’s Russia List? Thanks for the hint, never have heard of that before.
     
    Ancient in-joke amongst us "Russia watcher" bloggers and commenters. (As in, from more than a decade ago).

    Though I think JL is getting a bit rusty with the Averkoisms. Wasn't it more "deserving others", not "varied venues"?
  125. @Gerard.Gerard
    @utu


    Both Chaikovsky and phallic hard rockets may come handy when proselytising Russia's cause in the gay community. Even Russia's soft power is hard
     
    That comment could almost win the Internet...... except for the inconvenient fact that in addition to Chaikovsky, Russia has Rakhmaninov, Shostakovich, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Borodin, Glinka, Scriabin, Stravinsky. That is a mass of great, genius composers loved and known throughout the world.

    Poland has?........... LOL..... (insert some mathematical formula of a rapidly expanding black hole)

    Poland has done ZERO contribution to classical music and the entire western culture in the last 500 years. Embarrassingly, small Armenia, which isn't even European, has contributed more to the west than Poland because of the world-renowned composer Khachaturian.
    It's unfortunate that great Armenian Konyak is not sold in the west because if it was, then it would surpass the number of Polish products sold in the west.

    Before you mention (pathetically the only one you can) Chopin, remember that:

    1. He was ethnically French
    2. Only had sex with French women
    3. Composed everything in France (and possibly in Majorca, of course nothing in Poland)
    4. Died in France
    5. Airport in Poland named after him
    probably because its the first place he would have gone to in Poland if they existed at the time
    6. I don't know--did he even speak Polish?
    7. Absolutely nothing derivative from his work in Poland--completely different to the great Russian, German, Hungarian, French, Italian and British composers who influenced or created other respected composers, conductors and musicians who trained directly under them.... because he wasn't Polish--there was nothing of that for Poland
    8.Bizarrely and idiotically Poles tried to claim after-death, of some of Chopin pieces being "Polish style/culture " or "dedicated to Poland" - not because of anything he said or wrote, but based solely on the fact that........ many of his pieces were suicidally sounding faggotry, which Polish nationalists assumed must have been dedicated to them

    I can as reflex action name 25 great Russian writers without a thought entering my brain. Nobody in the world can name any Polish writer

    Our contributions in science and engineering are too much for any blog post. Non-Jewish Polish contributions are....... noneexistant.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Philip Owen, @Agathoklis, @Rich

    The Poles gave us Sobieski, who saved Europe from the accursed Islamists. If they, as a people, do nothing else, they have my appreciation for that. We’d have no Western culture, no music, no art, nothing. They have my permission to rest on that laurel.

  126. @Gerard-Mandela
    @Dmitry

    Excellent comment about Schumann. Had not thought about it like that before - you are correct.


    Now, there are several great/masterpiece compositions that are 3,4,5,6 minutes long - but you have to add scale of the composition into your thoughts when classifying who is a great composer or not ( although the definition is of course arbitrary). Everybody else considered great is composing masterpieces incomparable longer than Chopin - Concertos, Symphonies,Operas, longer Sonatas etc. It does not seem to fair to classify Chopin with those greats because they are composing 30 minute, 120 minute masterpieces against 7 minutes from Chopin!

    Forgetting about the very complex Hammerklavier and other " late " Sonatas ( which are too complex for me to notice or understand all the genius in them, though I am sure you do)- the very popular 17,15,Moonlight, 12, Appassionata, Waldstein, Pathetique Sonatas by Beethoven are several minutes longer than the longest Chopin piece. Individual movements are often even longer than the longest Chopin one! Most of Chopin's pieces are 1/3rd to 1/2 repetition anyway ( completely different to Bach's genius inversions and other variations)

    Adding to this "length of piece" issue - I always view his pieces as individual Nocturnes or Etudes or Mazurkas etc - not as a series of pieces under one great composition of Nocturnes/Etudes. Unfairly or not - I view as a whole, single masterpiece the Goldberg variations and well-tempered Klavier by Bach, the orchestral Enigma variations by Elgar, Planet Suite by Holst etc. Nothing like that for Chopin , although maybe the Ballades should be seen as one whole great composition/art.

    Lizst individual piano compositions such as the Sonata in B minor are 40 - 45 minutes long. His shorter pieces ( 10 minutes of less) can be viewed great just like Chopin...but they are technically more complex to play.

    Replies: @Swedish Family, @Dmitry

    Adding to this “length of piece” issue – I always view his pieces as individual Nocturnes or Etudes or Mazurkas etc – not as a series of pieces under one great composition of Nocturnes/Etudes. Unfairly or not – I view as a whole, single masterpiece the Goldberg variations and well-tempered Klavier by Bach, the orchestral Enigma variations by Elgar, Planet Suite by Holst etc. Nothing like that for Chopin , although maybe the Ballades should be seen as one whole great composition/art.

    I think his preludes qualify. Look up the Martha Argerich recordings from the 70s.

  127. @Mr. Hack

    The Ukrainian vyshyvanka is basically the same thing as the Russian kosovorotka, but Russian politicians (German, Chinese, American, etc.) don’t parade in such garb to signal their patriotism. What’s the point when you have Tchaikovsky and rockets, LOL.
     
    Basically the same thing, as in both being men's shirts? :-)

    https://russiapedia.rt.com/files/of-russian-origin/kosovorotka/kosovorotka_2-t.jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Vyshyvanyi_01.jpg/220px-Vyshyvanyi_01.jpg

    You're right about how so many nationalities around the world are losing touch with their traditional cultures and dress, perhaps in pursuit of assimilating quicker into being a part of the great new GloboHomo awakening. The gentleman in the photo dressed in the Ukrainian vyshyvanka is a famous Austrian Archduke, who forook his own country's dress for the Ukrainian vyshyvanka, I'm sure that he knew the difference - can you guess who he was?

    Replies: @LG, @jonie

    He is an inbred, though.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @jonie

    I think that you're right. The guy in the top photo does indeed share some physical characteristics very reminiscent of what was once known as "Mongolism*" that has today been sanitized to adhere to a more "politically correct" agenda, and is known today as "Down Syndrome", that often occurs after too much inbreeding.

    * Due to his perception that children with Down syndrome shared facial similarities with the populations that Johann Friedrich Blumenbach described as the "Mongolian race", Down used the term mongoloid. Mongolism and its Pathology was the title used by W. Bertram Hill for a published study in 1908.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  128. @AltanBakshi
    @JL

    Johnson’s Russia List? Thanks for the hint, never have heard of that before.

    Dual loyalties seem to be a huge problem in America. Its very sad what happened to that great country, I may seem very Anti-American and so I am, but only towards modern America, but my view is more nuanced with the America of the past. Many founding fathers seemed to be genuinely honest and good men, still slavery, Christian idealism and Enlightenment values together were a ticking time bomb....

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Johnson’s Russia List? Thanks for the hint, never have heard of that before.

    Ancient in-joke amongst us “Russia watcher” bloggers and commenters. (As in, from more than a decade ago).

    Though I think JL is getting a bit rusty with the Averkoisms. Wasn’t it more “deserving others”, not “varied venues”?

  129. @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    I meant what I wrote about you:


    I hope he comes out Okay (see Philip Giraldi’s latest thread).
     
    It's seldom that I agree with any of your conclusions, but I think that you should have every right in the world to express yourself without being harassed.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    What's important is that you've come out of this relatively unscathed, ready to take up the fight again and save the world from ungodly Putlerphobia. What were they thinking about in the first place, trying to undermine America's favorite "Kremlin Stooge" anyway? The nerve, the gall? Mickey, take it from your neighbor in the Bronx:

    https://files.secure.website/wscfus/5177501/10329962/embleholics-blueprint-front-w1920-o.png

  130. @Swedish Family
    @Anatoly Karlin


    I mean, Chopin is a world class composer, along with Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, and Rachmaninov, and possibly Prokofiev from Russians. So, equal in per capita terms.
     
    Tchaikovsky surely is a league above these others you name.

    There are greats and there are titans. In world letters, Pushkin, Turgenev, and Goncharov (and many others) are greats but not titans, while Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Chekhov, Bulgakov, and Nabokov (some would also add Gogol -- and maybe Solzhenitsyn) are all titans.

    In classical music, there are only four credible titans: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Tchaikovsky.* Tchaikovsky therefore can't be likened to any other Russian composer (or indeed Chopin). His is the realm of Shakespeare, Picasso, and Kubrick.

    * This argument does not reflect my own taste. Myself, I would demote Beethoven and Mozart and give the top spot to Ravel.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela, @Dmitry

    What does Rakhmaninov have to do to get into that list? Is your thinking that he does not have the scale or variety of repertoire as Chaikovsky and the others?

    When they were naming the airports in Russia last year, the first names that came to my head in who gives me the greatest satisfaction to be Russian were Rakhmaninov, Pushkin and Zhukov. All entirely subjective of course – and we do have an ocean of great names to select from

    In classical music, there are only four credible titans: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Tchaikovsky

    I would agree that those 4 have probably acquired the highest rating for the general public during history. Chaikovsky has the advantage over this compared to Rakhmaninov because his popularity was at the peak of the British Empire and of (relative) russophilia in Germany. This puts him in an advanced position ahead of Rakhmaninov at the start of the radio era. Even though he wasn’t alive then, but Rakhmaninov was, the 20,30,40 year “start” ahead of Rakhmaninov makes Chaikovsky’s music an established part of the repertoire for all famous orchestras and musicians at the beginning of the recording industry , public broadcasting and mass use of radios.
    I can see this helping him in popularity in the 1910,1920’s…..possibly even as late as the 1930’s! It sounds ridiculous for the modern era that one mans music from 60 years before, recorded after his death can be consumed by the public more than one guy still living and written 20 years before – but I think that is how it worked then.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    @Gerard-Mandela


    What does Rakhmaninov have to do to get into that list? Is your thinking that he does not have the scale or variety of repertoire as Chaikovsky and the others?
     
    I'm only considering popularity, which is why I left out composers like Ravel, who is my own No. 1.


    When they were naming the airports in Russia last year, the first names that came to my head in who gives me the greatest satisfaction to be Russian were Rakhmaninov, Pushkin and Zhukov. All entirely subjective of course – and we do have an ocean of great names to select from.
     
    For a Russian nationalist, it's odd that you rank Rachmaninov -- perhaps the most Westernized of all Russia composers -- at the top. :) I thought of you as more of a Borodin fan. This is about as Russian as it gets ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGNObWgU2Qw

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Gerard-Mandela

  131. @jonie
    @Mr. Hack

    He is an inbred, though.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I think that you’re right. The guy in the top photo does indeed share some physical characteristics very reminiscent of what was once known as “Mongolism*” that has today been sanitized to adhere to a more “politically correct” agenda, and is known today as “Down Syndrome”, that often occurs after too much inbreeding.

    * Due to his perception that children with Down syndrome shared facial similarities with the populations that Johann Friedrich Blumenbach described as the “Mongolian race”, Down used the term mongoloid. Mongolism and its Pathology was the title used by W. Bertram Hill for a published study in 1908.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    Thanks for reminding me of this classic, which I had totally forgotten!

    https://youtu.be/GZDl_R8Zp2E

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  132. @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    I came out of all of this in a much better position:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2020/08/18/us-foreign-policy-establishments-obsession-with-russia/

    As for being anti-Communist, while opposing McCarthyism:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2020/08/12/censoring-cancel-culture-against-russia/

    What apparently might've triggered all or much of the hoopla:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2020/05/24/what-evelyn-fakas-trey-gowdy-and-some-others-dubiously-have-in-common/

    Related:

    http://markcrispinmiller.com/2020/07/a-visit-from-the-fbi/

    https://www.yonkerstribune.com/2020/07/averko-in-the-new-york-times-by-michael-averko#comments

    https://www.yonkerstribune.com/2020/05/what-evelyn-farkas-trey-gowdy-and-some-others-dubiously-have-in-common-by-michael-averko#comments

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    What’s important is that you’ve come out of this relatively unscathed, ready to take up the fight again and save the world from ungodly Putlerphobia. What were they thinking about in the first place, trying to undermine America’s favorite “Kremlin Stooge” anyway? The nerve, the gall? Mickey, take it from your neighbor in the Bronx:

  133. @Mr. Hack
    @jonie

    I think that you're right. The guy in the top photo does indeed share some physical characteristics very reminiscent of what was once known as "Mongolism*" that has today been sanitized to adhere to a more "politically correct" agenda, and is known today as "Down Syndrome", that often occurs after too much inbreeding.

    * Due to his perception that children with Down syndrome shared facial similarities with the populations that Johann Friedrich Blumenbach described as the "Mongolian race", Down used the term mongoloid. Mongolism and its Pathology was the title used by W. Bertram Hill for a published study in 1908.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Thanks for reminding me of this classic, which I had totally forgotten!

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    Be careful, some of our "highborow" friends here, may not understand. :-)

  134. @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    Thanks for reminding me of this classic, which I had totally forgotten!

    https://youtu.be/GZDl_R8Zp2E

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Be careful, some of our “highborow” friends here, may not understand. 🙂

  135. Hah you thought that Im like the minorities or people of your country and get agitated, when they are so petty that they explode from something called microaggressions, you must try something better, why one should get agitated from something like historical name of Down syndrome, in my opinion people suffering from it dont look like Mongolians, but even if majority of humanity would think so, then so what, I cant control the perception/ayatana of others or how they interpret visible objects. But now I am sure that my remarks touched your nerve.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    Do I look perturbed?

    BTW, I've always been fascinated with Mongolian/Horde history, and have paid much attention to the great Historian of Golden Horde history, Charles Halperin, who was able to balance out the negative perception of the Horde and paid much attention to the progressive things that they brought to the lands of Rus. I don't know if you have access to Netflix, but they provide an interesting, if not fantastical historical drama done quite elaborately in a series about "Marco Polo". I'm sure that the writers and directors took a lot of liberties with the subject matter, but it was entertaining to watch, to say the least.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  136. @AltanBakshi
    Hah you thought that Im like the minorities or people of your country and get agitated, when they are so petty that they explode from something called microaggressions, you must try something better, why one should get agitated from something like historical name of Down syndrome, in my opinion people suffering from it dont look like Mongolians, but even if majority of humanity would think so, then so what, I cant control the perception/ayatana of others or how they interpret visible objects. But now I am sure that my remarks touched your nerve.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Do I look perturbed?

    BTW, I’ve always been fascinated with Mongolian/Horde history, and have paid much attention to the great Historian of Golden Horde history, Charles Halperin, who was able to balance out the negative perception of the Horde and paid much attention to the progressive things that they brought to the lands of Rus. I don’t know if you have access to Netflix, but they provide an interesting, if not fantastical historical drama done quite elaborately in a series about “Marco Polo”. I’m sure that the writers and directors took a lot of liberties with the subject matter, but it was entertaining to watch, to say the least.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    I am not trying to insult, this is my honest opinion, I dont watch at all modern crap like Marco Polo, Vikings whatever pseudohistorical series they have, where people are just modern Americans larping in the past. Its my belief that western media is under such strong progressive ideological impulse that they just cant create proper historical drama without at least subversily incerting modern sensibilities. Actually they arent even subverse, but most people are just too brainwashed to notice or dont care at all. I watch movies very rarely, less every year, and TV series even less. Last good and authentic western historical series that was made was the Wolf Hall from BBC in 2015. I was very suprised by it, it had such attention to even minute details of the 16th Century life that I was in shock that there are still people in such evil company who just want to make honest art for arts sake and tell a good historically sound story, without any hint of hidden propaganda. Like they did with Downton Abbey, and sadly increased it season by season. I have never watched even one episode of Marco Polo, for me seeing couple clips and ads is enough to judge it as an utter shit. And I believe that Wolf Hall was the swansong of British period drama, last of its kind. But really Mr. Hack advertising such trash as Netflix, you really are very contemporary American in your tastes. There are some good American historical movies, but I believe that Americans unlike Brits never could make any good historical series, even before the madness of last years. Of course Im excluding series that tell about American history, for there are some few good ones from HBO like John Adams, but they are very, very rare.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  137. Because nobody calls Taiwan Formosa anymore or Beijing Peking, or Jeju Island Quelpart Island? Almost nobody also calls Denali Mt. McKinley, or Jakarta Batavia.

  138. @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    Do I look perturbed?

    BTW, I've always been fascinated with Mongolian/Horde history, and have paid much attention to the great Historian of Golden Horde history, Charles Halperin, who was able to balance out the negative perception of the Horde and paid much attention to the progressive things that they brought to the lands of Rus. I don't know if you have access to Netflix, but they provide an interesting, if not fantastical historical drama done quite elaborately in a series about "Marco Polo". I'm sure that the writers and directors took a lot of liberties with the subject matter, but it was entertaining to watch, to say the least.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    I am not trying to insult, this is my honest opinion, I dont watch at all modern crap like Marco Polo, Vikings whatever pseudohistorical series they have, where people are just modern Americans larping in the past. Its my belief that western media is under such strong progressive ideological impulse that they just cant create proper historical drama without at least subversily incerting modern sensibilities. Actually they arent even subverse, but most people are just too brainwashed to notice or dont care at all. I watch movies very rarely, less every year, and TV series even less. Last good and authentic western historical series that was made was the Wolf Hall from BBC in 2015. I was very suprised by it, it had such attention to even minute details of the 16th Century life that I was in shock that there are still people in such evil company who just want to make honest art for arts sake and tell a good historically sound story, without any hint of hidden propaganda. Like they did with Downton Abbey, and sadly increased it season by season. I have never watched even one episode of Marco Polo, for me seeing couple clips and ads is enough to judge it as an utter shit. And I believe that Wolf Hall was the swansong of British period drama, last of its kind. But really Mr. Hack advertising such trash as Netflix, you really are very contemporary American in your tastes. There are some good American historical movies, but I believe that Americans unlike Brits never could make any good historical series, even before the madness of last years. Of course Im excluding series that tell about American history, for there are some few good ones from HBO like John Adams, but they are very, very rare.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    And you advertising for HBO makes you an authentic Mongolian? :-)

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  139. @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    I am not trying to insult, this is my honest opinion, I dont watch at all modern crap like Marco Polo, Vikings whatever pseudohistorical series they have, where people are just modern Americans larping in the past. Its my belief that western media is under such strong progressive ideological impulse that they just cant create proper historical drama without at least subversily incerting modern sensibilities. Actually they arent even subverse, but most people are just too brainwashed to notice or dont care at all. I watch movies very rarely, less every year, and TV series even less. Last good and authentic western historical series that was made was the Wolf Hall from BBC in 2015. I was very suprised by it, it had such attention to even minute details of the 16th Century life that I was in shock that there are still people in such evil company who just want to make honest art for arts sake and tell a good historically sound story, without any hint of hidden propaganda. Like they did with Downton Abbey, and sadly increased it season by season. I have never watched even one episode of Marco Polo, for me seeing couple clips and ads is enough to judge it as an utter shit. And I believe that Wolf Hall was the swansong of British period drama, last of its kind. But really Mr. Hack advertising such trash as Netflix, you really are very contemporary American in your tastes. There are some good American historical movies, but I believe that Americans unlike Brits never could make any good historical series, even before the madness of last years. Of course Im excluding series that tell about American history, for there are some few good ones from HBO like John Adams, but they are very, very rare.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    And you advertising for HBO makes you an authentic Mongolian? 🙂

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    Never claimed so for Im only through my mothers side. Still I value my Mongolian heritage and its part of my identity. But there are more important things for me than ethnic identity, especially my religion. And there are quite many Buryats and Mongols who enjoy western TV, you have quite strange standards of authenticity. Once in Beijing I had a cab driver who was obsessed with the music of Michael Jackson, it was quite cringe, still he seemed very Chinese to me, although somewhat non typical. And in the 2000's there was strange and strong trend with the gansta rap among the Mongols, thank Tengri it has gone past. Now they enjoy rock and metal, especially folk metal, which is huge improvement. Actually Mongolian gangsta rap had a huge scene decade ago, it was trash but still its better than all that korean shit that is popular nowadays.

  140. @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    And you advertising for HBO makes you an authentic Mongolian? :-)

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Never claimed so for Im only through my mothers side. Still I value my Mongolian heritage and its part of my identity. But there are more important things for me than ethnic identity, especially my religion. And there are quite many Buryats and Mongols who enjoy western TV, you have quite strange standards of authenticity. Once in Beijing I had a cab driver who was obsessed with the music of Michael Jackson, it was quite cringe, still he seemed very Chinese to me, although somewhat non typical. And in the 2000’s there was strange and strong trend with the gansta rap among the Mongols, thank Tengri it has gone past. Now they enjoy rock and metal, especially folk metal, which is huge improvement. Actually Mongolian gangsta rap had a huge scene decade ago, it was trash but still its better than all that korean shit that is popular nowadays.

  141. @Gerard-Mandela
    @Swedish Family

    What does Rakhmaninov have to do to get into that list? Is your thinking that he does not have the scale or variety of repertoire as Chaikovsky and the others?

    When they were naming the airports in Russia last year, the first names that came to my head in who gives me the greatest satisfaction to be Russian were Rakhmaninov, Pushkin and Zhukov. All entirely subjective of course - and we do have an ocean of great names to select from


    In classical music, there are only four credible titans: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Tchaikovsky
     
    I would agree that those 4 have probably acquired the highest rating for the general public during history. Chaikovsky has the advantage over this compared to Rakhmaninov because his popularity was at the peak of the British Empire and of (relative) russophilia in Germany. This puts him in an advanced position ahead of Rakhmaninov at the start of the radio era. Even though he wasn't alive then, but Rakhmaninov was, the 20,30,40 year "start" ahead of Rakhmaninov makes Chaikovsky's music an established part of the repertoire for all famous orchestras and musicians at the beginning of the recording industry , public broadcasting and mass use of radios.
    I can see this helping him in popularity in the 1910,1920's.....possibly even as late as the 1930's! It sounds ridiculous for the modern era that one mans music from 60 years before, recorded after his death can be consumed by the public more than one guy still living and written 20 years before - but I think that is how it worked then.

    Replies: @Swedish Family

    What does Rakhmaninov have to do to get into that list? Is your thinking that he does not have the scale or variety of repertoire as Chaikovsky and the others?

    I’m only considering popularity, which is why I left out composers like Ravel, who is my own No. 1.

    When they were naming the airports in Russia last year, the first names that came to my head in who gives me the greatest satisfaction to be Russian were Rakhmaninov, Pushkin and Zhukov. All entirely subjective of course – and we do have an ocean of great names to select from.

    For a Russian nationalist, it’s odd that you rank Rachmaninov — perhaps the most Westernized of all Russia composers — at the top. 🙂 I thought of you as more of a Borodin fan. This is about as Russian as it gets …

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Swedish Family

    Jut think, if writing music weren't just a beloved hobby for Borodin, what he might have become within the world's pantheon of great composers?

    Obviously, our Russian nationalist quack hasn't evolved much of an aesthettc soul, as evidenced by his foolish rants directed against Chopin, who created such sweet and beautiful sounding music.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

    , @Gerard-Mandela
    @Swedish Family


    For a Russian nationalist, it’s odd that you rank Rachmaninov — perhaps the most Westernized of all Russia composers — at the top. 🙂 I thought of you as more of a Borodin fan. This is about as Russian as it gets …
     
    That's true when you put it that way - good point! I am of course though also a Borodin fan. I prefer to view it as Rakhmaninov "easternising" western audiences and musicians , than it being him who was westernised. To me it appears that western perceptions of russian mentality and russian character they see in his music more than the other great composers......and I don't think it is overdramatic to claim that.

    I had forgotten about this vote done over 10 years ago- but must admit to being disappointed Rakhmaninov is not even in the top 50 of greatest Russians:

    http://top50.nameofrussia.ru/rating.html?all=1

    Chaikovsky ranked 42nd. We certainly seem to rate writers much higher than composers
  142. @Swedish Family
    @Gerard-Mandela


    What does Rakhmaninov have to do to get into that list? Is your thinking that he does not have the scale or variety of repertoire as Chaikovsky and the others?
     
    I'm only considering popularity, which is why I left out composers like Ravel, who is my own No. 1.


    When they were naming the airports in Russia last year, the first names that came to my head in who gives me the greatest satisfaction to be Russian were Rakhmaninov, Pushkin and Zhukov. All entirely subjective of course – and we do have an ocean of great names to select from.
     
    For a Russian nationalist, it's odd that you rank Rachmaninov -- perhaps the most Westernized of all Russia composers -- at the top. :) I thought of you as more of a Borodin fan. This is about as Russian as it gets ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGNObWgU2Qw

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Gerard-Mandela

    Jut think, if writing music weren’t just a beloved hobby for Borodin, what he might have become within the world’s pantheon of great composers?

    Obviously, our Russian nationalist quack hasn’t evolved much of an aesthettc soul, as evidenced by his foolish rants directed against Chopin, who created such sweet and beautiful sounding music.

    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
    @Mr. Hack


    Obviously, our Russian nationalist quack hasn’t evolved much of an aesthettc soul, as evidenced by his foolish rants directed against Chopin, who created such sweet and beautiful sounding music.
     
    Mr Hack/Elephant man ....you have to stop these flashes of rage - it's very rude. I mostly criticised Poland, not much the music of Chopin ( i'm sure I said he composed great music)

    But as you have provoked me.................

    I withdraw my comment about him composing great music. Chopin is much closer in "quality" to Fillip Kirkorov, and Verka Serducka..... than he is with the true greats like Rakhmaninov, Borodin, Mozart, Bach etc. They are so far ahead of him

    Most kids master Chopin Preludes before they have reached 18 months in age - I was slow by comparison - only mastered it just after my second birthday , they are that easy. My version of How Insensitive, that I play sometimes with friends ( song by the Bossa Nova great Jobim - which is derivative of one of Chopin's Preludes) would easily have the nutjob Polish authorities begging me to allow them to make it their new national anthem. My version is superior in complexity, skill and of course....time that anything of Chopin's ( except for the pitifully small number of Sonatas he did)

    BTW , as we were talking about the nationalist theme because of Borodin...and also because you know I am such a big fan of yours...I have written an amazing book about the great Galician composers. It's a profound piece of work that took some serious research. I'm expecting a 5 million USD payment from top American publishers for it.

    I am going to post all the 1000+ pages text within this comment, so Karlin if you are reading here - you will want to put in the "More" edit for this, because it's so long.

    Here is the book:

    Great Galician composers

    Author Gerard


    The End

    If you can't see it, then you need to change your lenses, Mr Hack..or slam your head against a concrete wall multiple times. I wrote the book because of you- so please take it as a sign of immense respect

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  143. @Agathoklis
    @Gerard.Gerard

    Armenians are Europeans.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela, @Yevardian

    Don’t you dare associate us with whitoids.

    Personally, I always felt Chaikovsky was mostly a composer of overdramatic (unsurprising given his personal background) kitsch, there are many much superior Russian composers, Borodin, Korsokov outclassed him even in his native genre of thematic music.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Yevardian


    given his personal background)

     

    I think audience might speculate Tchaikovsky was homosexual (or at least had histrionic/grandiose aesthetics stereotypically associated with homosexual personality type) just from listening to parts of his symphonies, without knowing anything about evidence of his life history compiled by biographers, and without even seeing his ballets.

    On the other hand, with Musorgsky, you would not guess that he was probably homosexual, and neither I think does almost anyone care today - as it is not something obvious in music. It's just random trivia known among music fans.

    Homosexuality is something which is disproportionately represented among creative professionals - but it only seems significant in classical music history when you talk about Tchaikovsky, probably because he seemed to stream it into the music itself, along with so much of his personality.

    This is product partly of how skillful he became as a composer, how directly he was able to express himself.

    In his late symphonies, he is sometimes streaming moods directly from his soul, like the sighs in the final bars in the final movement of the 6th, which contributed to all the speculation how his manner of death. Audience feels like they know Tchaikovsky closely as one of their friends, after listening to his works - and it was sometimes like they had been forced to listen to his alcoholic drunk laments.
  144. @Swedish Family
    @Anatoly Karlin


    I mean, Chopin is a world class composer, along with Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, and Rachmaninov, and possibly Prokofiev from Russians. So, equal in per capita terms.
     
    Tchaikovsky surely is a league above these others you name.

    There are greats and there are titans. In world letters, Pushkin, Turgenev, and Goncharov (and many others) are greats but not titans, while Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Chekhov, Bulgakov, and Nabokov (some would also add Gogol -- and maybe Solzhenitsyn) are all titans.

    In classical music, there are only four credible titans: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Tchaikovsky.* Tchaikovsky therefore can't be likened to any other Russian composer (or indeed Chopin). His is the realm of Shakespeare, Picasso, and Kubrick.

    * This argument does not reflect my own taste. Myself, I would demote Beethoven and Mozart and give the top spot to Ravel.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela, @Dmitry

    titans: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Tchaikovsky

    Taste and perception of music is subjective, and we all will enjoy composers’ works in somewhat different degrees, depending on our own personality.

    However, there is also an objective component in music history, that can be analyzed in more technical way.

    So while it’s surely plausible that you enjoy Tchaikovsky’s works as much as those of Beethoven – and that this is true for millions of people.

    On the other hand, there is no comparison of their position in musical history. We will find in some of Beethoven’s piano sonatas more innovations, than in Tchaikovsky’s symphonies. And Beethoven is producing such kind of revolutionary works every few months in some of his creative years.

    You can only say Beethoven is a different class of genius. Even Beethoven’s works might be distasteful or personally disliked by a person from a subjective point of view, and that individually (and without seeing their context in music history) such works are not all better than works of many great 19th century composers that came after him.

    That’s not to say Tchaikovsky is not an important composer even in history of the symphony, or music in Russia, and he is of course the world’s most important composer in the history of ballet music.

    If you are talking in terms of popularity of composers in the West and in Russia. Tchaikovsky was extremely promoted in the Soviet times. I think that quality and expertise for playing Tchaikovsky has fallen in recent decades though – the best performances of his symphonies are from Soviet times. Most fans would still go first to the Mravinsky’s recordings of Tchaikovsky’s later symphonies. Or even Kurt Sanderling’s recordings is also more preferred than most of modern performances.

    • Agree: Gerard-Mandela
  145. @Yevardian
    @Agathoklis

    Don't you dare associate us with whitoids.

    Personally, I always felt Chaikovsky was mostly a composer of overdramatic (unsurprising given his personal background) kitsch, there are many much superior Russian composers, Borodin, Korsokov outclassed him even in his native genre of thematic music.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    given his personal background)

    I think audience might speculate Tchaikovsky was homosexual (or at least had histrionic/grandiose aesthetics stereotypically associated with homosexual personality type) just from listening to parts of his symphonies, without knowing anything about evidence of his life history compiled by biographers, and without even seeing his ballets.

    On the other hand, with Musorgsky, you would not guess that he was probably homosexual, and neither I think does almost anyone care today – as it is not something obvious in music. It’s just random trivia known among music fans.

    Homosexuality is something which is disproportionately represented among creative professionals – but it only seems significant in classical music history when you talk about Tchaikovsky, probably because he seemed to stream it into the music itself, along with so much of his personality.

    This is product partly of how skillful he became as a composer, how directly he was able to express himself.

    In his late symphonies, he is sometimes streaming moods directly from his soul, like the sighs in the final bars in the final movement of the 6th, which contributed to all the speculation how his manner of death. Audience feels like they know Tchaikovsky closely as one of their friends, after listening to his works – and it was sometimes like they had been forced to listen to his alcoholic drunk laments.

  146. @Gerard-Mandela
    @Dmitry

    Excellent comment about Schumann. Had not thought about it like that before - you are correct.


    Now, there are several great/masterpiece compositions that are 3,4,5,6 minutes long - but you have to add scale of the composition into your thoughts when classifying who is a great composer or not ( although the definition is of course arbitrary). Everybody else considered great is composing masterpieces incomparable longer than Chopin - Concertos, Symphonies,Operas, longer Sonatas etc. It does not seem to fair to classify Chopin with those greats because they are composing 30 minute, 120 minute masterpieces against 7 minutes from Chopin!

    Forgetting about the very complex Hammerklavier and other " late " Sonatas ( which are too complex for me to notice or understand all the genius in them, though I am sure you do)- the very popular 17,15,Moonlight, 12, Appassionata, Waldstein, Pathetique Sonatas by Beethoven are several minutes longer than the longest Chopin piece. Individual movements are often even longer than the longest Chopin one! Most of Chopin's pieces are 1/3rd to 1/2 repetition anyway ( completely different to Bach's genius inversions and other variations)

    Adding to this "length of piece" issue - I always view his pieces as individual Nocturnes or Etudes or Mazurkas etc - not as a series of pieces under one great composition of Nocturnes/Etudes. Unfairly or not - I view as a whole, single masterpiece the Goldberg variations and well-tempered Klavier by Bach, the orchestral Enigma variations by Elgar, Planet Suite by Holst etc. Nothing like that for Chopin , although maybe the Ballades should be seen as one whole great composition/art.

    Lizst individual piano compositions such as the Sonata in B minor are 40 - 45 minutes long. His shorter pieces ( 10 minutes of less) can be viewed great just like Chopin...but they are technically more complex to play.

    Replies: @Swedish Family, @Dmitry

    Chopin’s piano writing has quite a lot of orchestral aspects in it – for example the imitations in the right hand (which require quite a lot of jumping across).

    I wonder if symphonic writing of Brahms is influenced quite a lot by Chopin’s right hand on piano, as there are obviously related patterns.

    “length of piece” issue – I always view his pieces as individual Nocturnes or Etudes or Mazurkas etc – not as a series of pieces under one great composition of Nocturnes/Etudes.

    Chopin’s piano sonatas are quite an ambitious and long works.

    Although it is true, for example with the second sonata, that the movements were composed separately. For example, the funeral march, was composed separately, and then some aspects of it used as inspiration for the first two movements.

    And the relation between the funeral march and the strange and uncanny final movement (which Godowsky is playing interesting) is not really clear.

  147. @Swedish Family
    @Gerard-Mandela


    What does Rakhmaninov have to do to get into that list? Is your thinking that he does not have the scale or variety of repertoire as Chaikovsky and the others?
     
    I'm only considering popularity, which is why I left out composers like Ravel, who is my own No. 1.


    When they were naming the airports in Russia last year, the first names that came to my head in who gives me the greatest satisfaction to be Russian were Rakhmaninov, Pushkin and Zhukov. All entirely subjective of course – and we do have an ocean of great names to select from.
     
    For a Russian nationalist, it's odd that you rank Rachmaninov -- perhaps the most Westernized of all Russia composers -- at the top. :) I thought of you as more of a Borodin fan. This is about as Russian as it gets ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGNObWgU2Qw

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Gerard-Mandela

    For a Russian nationalist, it’s odd that you rank Rachmaninov — perhaps the most Westernized of all Russia composers — at the top. 🙂 I thought of you as more of a Borodin fan. This is about as Russian as it gets …

    That’s true when you put it that way – good point! I am of course though also a Borodin fan. I prefer to view it as Rakhmaninov “easternising” western audiences and musicians , than it being him who was westernised. To me it appears that western perceptions of russian mentality and russian character they see in his music more than the other great composers……and I don’t think it is overdramatic to claim that.

    I had forgotten about this vote done over 10 years ago- but must admit to being disappointed Rakhmaninov is not even in the top 50 of greatest Russians:

    http://top50.nameofrussia.ru/rating.html?all=1

    Chaikovsky ranked 42nd. We certainly seem to rate writers much higher than composers

  148. @Mr. Hack
    @Swedish Family

    Jut think, if writing music weren't just a beloved hobby for Borodin, what he might have become within the world's pantheon of great composers?

    Obviously, our Russian nationalist quack hasn't evolved much of an aesthettc soul, as evidenced by his foolish rants directed against Chopin, who created such sweet and beautiful sounding music.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

    Obviously, our Russian nationalist quack hasn’t evolved much of an aesthettc soul, as evidenced by his foolish rants directed against Chopin, who created such sweet and beautiful sounding music.

    Mr Hack/Elephant man ….you have to stop these flashes of rage – it’s very rude. I mostly criticised Poland, not much the music of Chopin ( i’m sure I said he composed great music)

    But as you have provoked me……………..

    I withdraw my comment about him composing great music. Chopin is much closer in “quality” to Fillip Kirkorov, and Verka Serducka….. than he is with the true greats like Rakhmaninov, Borodin, Mozart, Bach etc. They are so far ahead of him

    Most kids master Chopin Preludes before they have reached 18 months in age – I was slow by comparison – only mastered it just after my second birthday , they are that easy. My version of How Insensitive, that I play sometimes with friends ( song by the Bossa Nova great Jobim – which is derivative of one of Chopin’s Preludes) would easily have the nutjob Polish authorities begging me to allow them to make it their new national anthem. My version is superior in complexity, skill and of course….time that anything of Chopin’s ( except for the pitifully small number of Sonatas he did)

    BTW , as we were talking about the nationalist theme because of Borodin…and also because you know I am such a big fan of yours…I have written an amazing book about the great Galician composers. It’s a profound piece of work that took some serious research. I’m expecting a 5 million USD payment from top American publishers for it.

    I am going to post all the 1000+ pages text within this comment, so Karlin if you are reading here – you will want to put in the “More” edit for this, because it’s so long.

    Here is the book:

    Great Galician composers

    Author Gerard

    The End

    If you can’t see it, then you need to change your lenses, Mr Hack..or slam your head against a concrete wall multiple times. I wrote the book because of you- so please take it as a sign of immense respect

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Gerard-Mandela

    I'm not a Galician, nor is any part of me of Galician derivative, so I pay scant attention at your feeble minded attempts to try and irritate me. But you're right, there aren't any great Galician composers that I can think of either, at least not on the scale of Bortniansky, from Poltava (save your usual grandstanding for somebody who's not familiar with the man, and don't try and remake him into a Russian composer).

    The Galicians can boast, however, of having one of the most prolific and high IQ artists currently alive. Ivan Marchuk "was ranked in Britain’s list of “Top 100 living geniuses” by the Daily Telegraph. I'm including two works of his that are a testament to the man's genius, one a very realistic representation, the other more modern, surrealistic. There are only two, see if you can figure out which is which:

    https://vsemart.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Autumn-in-Botanic-Garden-2004.jpg

    https://c7.alamy.com/comp/B98P20/ivan-marchuk-a-canvas-from-the-warning-i-cycle-B98P20.jpg

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  149. @Gerard-Mandela
    @Mr. Hack


    Obviously, our Russian nationalist quack hasn’t evolved much of an aesthettc soul, as evidenced by his foolish rants directed against Chopin, who created such sweet and beautiful sounding music.
     
    Mr Hack/Elephant man ....you have to stop these flashes of rage - it's very rude. I mostly criticised Poland, not much the music of Chopin ( i'm sure I said he composed great music)

    But as you have provoked me.................

    I withdraw my comment about him composing great music. Chopin is much closer in "quality" to Fillip Kirkorov, and Verka Serducka..... than he is with the true greats like Rakhmaninov, Borodin, Mozart, Bach etc. They are so far ahead of him

    Most kids master Chopin Preludes before they have reached 18 months in age - I was slow by comparison - only mastered it just after my second birthday , they are that easy. My version of How Insensitive, that I play sometimes with friends ( song by the Bossa Nova great Jobim - which is derivative of one of Chopin's Preludes) would easily have the nutjob Polish authorities begging me to allow them to make it their new national anthem. My version is superior in complexity, skill and of course....time that anything of Chopin's ( except for the pitifully small number of Sonatas he did)

    BTW , as we were talking about the nationalist theme because of Borodin...and also because you know I am such a big fan of yours...I have written an amazing book about the great Galician composers. It's a profound piece of work that took some serious research. I'm expecting a 5 million USD payment from top American publishers for it.

    I am going to post all the 1000+ pages text within this comment, so Karlin if you are reading here - you will want to put in the "More" edit for this, because it's so long.

    Here is the book:

    Great Galician composers

    Author Gerard


    The End

    If you can't see it, then you need to change your lenses, Mr Hack..or slam your head against a concrete wall multiple times. I wrote the book because of you- so please take it as a sign of immense respect

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I’m not a Galician, nor is any part of me of Galician derivative, so I pay scant attention at your feeble minded attempts to try and irritate me. But you’re right, there aren’t any great Galician composers that I can think of either, at least not on the scale of Bortniansky, from Poltava (save your usual grandstanding for somebody who’s not familiar with the man, and don’t try and remake him into a Russian composer).

    The Galicians can boast, however, of having one of the most prolific and high IQ artists currently alive. Ivan Marchuk “was ranked in Britain’s list of “Top 100 living geniuses” by the Daily Telegraph. I’m including two works of his that are a testament to the man’s genius, one a very realistic representation, the other more modern, surrealistic. There are only two, see if you can figure out which is which:

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack


    Ivan Marchuk “was ranked in Britain’s list of “Top 100 living geniuses” by the Daily Telegraph.
     
    You are a sad man Mr Hack if this inspires you. Now its clear for all of us, that the Ukrainian nationhood has been affirmed once again, for he's on Daily Telegraphs Top 100!

    First painting is okay, but nothing new, second one just copycats those neural network AI images.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  150. @Mr. Hack
    @Gerard-Mandela

    I'm not a Galician, nor is any part of me of Galician derivative, so I pay scant attention at your feeble minded attempts to try and irritate me. But you're right, there aren't any great Galician composers that I can think of either, at least not on the scale of Bortniansky, from Poltava (save your usual grandstanding for somebody who's not familiar with the man, and don't try and remake him into a Russian composer).

    The Galicians can boast, however, of having one of the most prolific and high IQ artists currently alive. Ivan Marchuk "was ranked in Britain’s list of “Top 100 living geniuses” by the Daily Telegraph. I'm including two works of his that are a testament to the man's genius, one a very realistic representation, the other more modern, surrealistic. There are only two, see if you can figure out which is which:

    https://vsemart.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Autumn-in-Botanic-Garden-2004.jpg

    https://c7.alamy.com/comp/B98P20/ivan-marchuk-a-canvas-from-the-warning-i-cycle-B98P20.jpg

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Ivan Marchuk “was ranked in Britain’s list of “Top 100 living geniuses” by the Daily Telegraph.

    You are a sad man Mr Hack if this inspires you. Now its clear for all of us, that the Ukrainian nationhood has been affirmed once again, for he’s on Daily Telegraphs Top 100!

    First painting is okay, but nothing new, second one just copycats those neural network AI images.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    I agree, it doesn't really matter what the Daily telegraph states. But his artwork is of a very high caliber, of high genius, and his paintings already adorn the walls of Art Museums around the globe.

    Why is it that you seem to always try to denigrate anything Ukrainian? Did a Ukrainian once perhaps steal away one of your youthful loves, forcing you into a life of darkness and loss? What gives?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  151. @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack


    Ivan Marchuk “was ranked in Britain’s list of “Top 100 living geniuses” by the Daily Telegraph.
     
    You are a sad man Mr Hack if this inspires you. Now its clear for all of us, that the Ukrainian nationhood has been affirmed once again, for he's on Daily Telegraphs Top 100!

    First painting is okay, but nothing new, second one just copycats those neural network AI images.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I agree, it doesn’t really matter what the Daily telegraph states. But his artwork is of a very high caliber, of high genius, and his paintings already adorn the walls of Art Museums around the globe.

    Why is it that you seem to always try to denigrate anything Ukrainian? Did a Ukrainian once perhaps steal away one of your youthful loves, forcing you into a life of darkness and loss? What gives?

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    I have had mainly positive experiences with Ukrainians, you know with real Ukrainians, who were not American larpers. But the Ukrainian nation is anathema for me, for its existence was born from mutilation of my beloved Russia, and as long that Frankensteins monster exists she will have a bleeding wound.

    But still it seems to me infantile how much some people on this site, you included, have this need of constantly getting their nations nationhood affirmed, seems to arise from insecurity. You dont see same thing happening with French, Russians, Scandinavians, Japanese etc. Like a child who has never gotten any recognition nor attention. Thats what I meant by calling you sad. "Oh now you see what I can do, do you see, will you now respect me? He was X and he too was from X, thats what the people of X can do!" Great men are just individuals/exceptions. And there is a big difference between the great artists and writers of the past, compared to the modern ones. Those of the past have become part of the collective culture, but modern ones are mostly enjoyed by the chattering classes, and quickly forgotten afterwards.

    I define nations greatness more by their spirituality, literary traditions and how they have fought in wars. Wars after all are a highly collective affair. People who lack unity and cohesion tend to lose them, even if the foe is small, like Ukrainians with the Donbass, but people who are united and feel solidarity will beat almost anything, like the Finns in the Winter War. Also most people and even most Russians dont understand or acknowledge how psychologically and subconsciously stressing the Russias situation has been during the last decade for the people of Russia, to be against a foe who constantly enroaches your lands, has almost unlimited economic might behind it, and who claims moral superiority and has military resources that surpass multiple times your own meagre ones. Even in this seemingly hopeless situation Russians have shown surprisingly high unity during the last decade against the Hegemon and his lackeys. A true battle between David and Goliath.

    For USA Ukraine is just tool, a disposable tool, a razor, a landmine against the Russia, but for Russia Ukraine is part of itself, a lost brother, a prodigal son, same blood and spirit. Slowly but surely Ukrainians will awake and do the same choice as their ancestors did in the PLC multiple times. There are indications of this already, I believe that few voters of Zelensky had nationalist or Russophobic inclinations. I dont claim that Zelensky is a friend of Russia, but you lie to yourself if you think that he is a nationalist or that people who voted form him are nationalist minded.

    Oh almost forgot, the lack of national unity among Ukrainians is also manifested by their spirituality, they are only Orthodox country which suffers from such schisms, even their new Church is in a schism with their founder, they are probably only Slavic nation who is so divided by their religious institutions.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  152. @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    I agree, it doesn't really matter what the Daily telegraph states. But his artwork is of a very high caliber, of high genius, and his paintings already adorn the walls of Art Museums around the globe.

    Why is it that you seem to always try to denigrate anything Ukrainian? Did a Ukrainian once perhaps steal away one of your youthful loves, forcing you into a life of darkness and loss? What gives?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    I have had mainly positive experiences with Ukrainians, you know with real Ukrainians, who were not American larpers. But the Ukrainian nation is anathema for me, for its existence was born from mutilation of my beloved Russia, and as long that Frankensteins monster exists she will have a bleeding wound.

    But still it seems to me infantile how much some people on this site, you included, have this need of constantly getting their nations nationhood affirmed, seems to arise from insecurity. You dont see same thing happening with French, Russians, Scandinavians, Japanese etc. Like a child who has never gotten any recognition nor attention. Thats what I meant by calling you sad. “Oh now you see what I can do, do you see, will you now respect me? He was X and he too was from X, thats what the people of X can do!” Great men are just individuals/exceptions. And there is a big difference between the great artists and writers of the past, compared to the modern ones. Those of the past have become part of the collective culture, but modern ones are mostly enjoyed by the chattering classes, and quickly forgotten afterwards.

    I define nations greatness more by their spirituality, literary traditions and how they have fought in wars. Wars after all are a highly collective affair. People who lack unity and cohesion tend to lose them, even if the foe is small, like Ukrainians with the Donbass, but people who are united and feel solidarity will beat almost anything, like the Finns in the Winter War. Also most people and even most Russians dont understand or acknowledge how psychologically and subconsciously stressing the Russias situation has been during the last decade for the people of Russia, to be against a foe who constantly enroaches your lands, has almost unlimited economic might behind it, and who claims moral superiority and has military resources that surpass multiple times your own meagre ones. Even in this seemingly hopeless situation Russians have shown surprisingly high unity during the last decade against the Hegemon and his lackeys. A true battle between David and Goliath.

    For USA Ukraine is just tool, a disposable tool, a razor, a landmine against the Russia, but for Russia Ukraine is part of itself, a lost brother, a prodigal son, same blood and spirit. Slowly but surely Ukrainians will awake and do the same choice as their ancestors did in the PLC multiple times. There are indications of this already, I believe that few voters of Zelensky had nationalist or Russophobic inclinations. I dont claim that Zelensky is a friend of Russia, but you lie to yourself if you think that he is a nationalist or that people who voted form him are nationalist minded.

    Oh almost forgot, the lack of national unity among Ukrainians is also manifested by their spirituality, they are only Orthodox country which suffers from such schisms, even their new Church is in a schism with their founder, they are probably only Slavic nation who is so divided by their religious institutions.

    • Agree: JL
    • Troll: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi


    But the Ukrainian nation is anathema for me, for its existence was born from mutilation of my beloved Russia, and as long that Frankensteins monster exists she will have a bleeding wound.
     
    Thank you for solidly confirming what I've suspected about you all along, that deep down inside you're a genuine Ukrainaphobe. All of your attestations of your "Buddhist faith" is just BS. Imagine a Buddhist being a Ukrainaphobe? A genuine Buddhist would shy away from the denigration of anybody's birthright as much as possible. You're as phoney as baloney, Mr. Buddhist!

    But still it seems to me infantile how much some people on this site, you included, have this need of constantly getting their nations nationhood affirmed, seems to arise from insecurity. You dont see same thing happening with French, Russians, Scandinavians, Japanese etc.
     
    I'm rather confident that you've never read a single book about Ukrainian history, and have obtained any knowledge about the topic second hand through Russian sources. Ukraine's historical evolution is different that all of the other countries that you've mentioned. Because for much of its modern history Ukraine was the in possession of two Empires, Austrian and Russia, its people weren't often allowed to pursue developing there own national agenda, especially within the Russian Empire. Many people, mostly Ukraine's intelligentsia experienced great censorship and discrimination for pursuing the support of their submerged nation. The "beloved Russia" that you're pledging your allegiance to, was indeed a "Prison of nations" for many centuries that employed all manner of guile and ruthlessness to try and cement its authoritarian rule over its subject nations.

    For USA Ukraine is just tool, a disposable tool, a razor, a landmine against the Russia, but for Russia Ukraine is part of itself, a lost brother, a prodigal son, same blood and spirit.
     
    More of your stupid, Ukrainaphobic dribble. I'm glad, however, that you've come clean and exposed your true nature and feelings about Ukraine. I'll be spending much less time reading your avalanche of comments here, and just characterize you as just another foolish internet Ukrainaphobic troll.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  153. @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    I have had mainly positive experiences with Ukrainians, you know with real Ukrainians, who were not American larpers. But the Ukrainian nation is anathema for me, for its existence was born from mutilation of my beloved Russia, and as long that Frankensteins monster exists she will have a bleeding wound.

    But still it seems to me infantile how much some people on this site, you included, have this need of constantly getting their nations nationhood affirmed, seems to arise from insecurity. You dont see same thing happening with French, Russians, Scandinavians, Japanese etc. Like a child who has never gotten any recognition nor attention. Thats what I meant by calling you sad. "Oh now you see what I can do, do you see, will you now respect me? He was X and he too was from X, thats what the people of X can do!" Great men are just individuals/exceptions. And there is a big difference between the great artists and writers of the past, compared to the modern ones. Those of the past have become part of the collective culture, but modern ones are mostly enjoyed by the chattering classes, and quickly forgotten afterwards.

    I define nations greatness more by their spirituality, literary traditions and how they have fought in wars. Wars after all are a highly collective affair. People who lack unity and cohesion tend to lose them, even if the foe is small, like Ukrainians with the Donbass, but people who are united and feel solidarity will beat almost anything, like the Finns in the Winter War. Also most people and even most Russians dont understand or acknowledge how psychologically and subconsciously stressing the Russias situation has been during the last decade for the people of Russia, to be against a foe who constantly enroaches your lands, has almost unlimited economic might behind it, and who claims moral superiority and has military resources that surpass multiple times your own meagre ones. Even in this seemingly hopeless situation Russians have shown surprisingly high unity during the last decade against the Hegemon and his lackeys. A true battle between David and Goliath.

    For USA Ukraine is just tool, a disposable tool, a razor, a landmine against the Russia, but for Russia Ukraine is part of itself, a lost brother, a prodigal son, same blood and spirit. Slowly but surely Ukrainians will awake and do the same choice as their ancestors did in the PLC multiple times. There are indications of this already, I believe that few voters of Zelensky had nationalist or Russophobic inclinations. I dont claim that Zelensky is a friend of Russia, but you lie to yourself if you think that he is a nationalist or that people who voted form him are nationalist minded.

    Oh almost forgot, the lack of national unity among Ukrainians is also manifested by their spirituality, they are only Orthodox country which suffers from such schisms, even their new Church is in a schism with their founder, they are probably only Slavic nation who is so divided by their religious institutions.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    But the Ukrainian nation is anathema for me, for its existence was born from mutilation of my beloved Russia, and as long that Frankensteins monster exists she will have a bleeding wound.

    Thank you for solidly confirming what I’ve suspected about you all along, that deep down inside you’re a genuine Ukrainaphobe. All of your attestations of your “Buddhist faith” is just BS. Imagine a Buddhist being a Ukrainaphobe? A genuine Buddhist would shy away from the denigration of anybody’s birthright as much as possible. You’re as phoney as baloney, Mr. Buddhist!

    But still it seems to me infantile how much some people on this site, you included, have this need of constantly getting their nations nationhood affirmed, seems to arise from insecurity. You dont see same thing happening with French, Russians, Scandinavians, Japanese etc.

    I’m rather confident that you’ve never read a single book about Ukrainian history, and have obtained any knowledge about the topic second hand through Russian sources. Ukraine’s historical evolution is different that all of the other countries that you’ve mentioned. Because for much of its modern history Ukraine was the in possession of two Empires, Austrian and Russia, its people weren’t often allowed to pursue developing there own national agenda, especially within the Russian Empire. Many people, mostly Ukraine’s intelligentsia experienced great censorship and discrimination for pursuing the support of their submerged nation. The “beloved Russia” that you’re pledging your allegiance to, was indeed a “Prison of nations” for many centuries that employed all manner of guile and ruthlessness to try and cement its authoritarian rule over its subject nations.

    For USA Ukraine is just tool, a disposable tool, a razor, a landmine against the Russia, but for Russia Ukraine is part of itself, a lost brother, a prodigal son, same blood and spirit.

    More of your stupid, Ukrainaphobic dribble. I’m glad, however, that you’ve come clean and exposed your true nature and feelings about Ukraine. I’ll be spending much less time reading your avalanche of comments here, and just characterize you as just another foolish internet Ukrainaphobic troll.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    I feel genuinely sad that I agitated you so much. I forgot that as an Orthodox Christian Anathema is a very strong word for you, and I should have chosen a better word. Lets say that I believe that most of Ukraine belongs in my opinion to Russia. At least 1667 borders, so Right bank Ukraine, Volhynia and Galicia could continue their existence as a Rump-Ukraine. Okay maybe the main part of Kiev lying west of Dnepr could be left. But please be honest with me Mr. Hack, by what logic you think that something like Kharkov belongs to Ukraine, because Soviets gave it to Ukrainian SSR? It has no history under Hetmanate etc.


    Thank you for solidly confirming what I’ve suspected about you all along, that deep down inside you’re a genuine Ukrainaphobe. All of your attestations of your “Buddhist faith” is just BS. Imagine a Buddhist being a Ukrainaphobe? A genuine Buddhist would shy away from the denigration of anybody’s birthright as much as possible. You’re as phoney as baloney, Mr. Buddhist!
     
    Sri Lankan Tamils had over four centuries of independence as Kingdom of Jaffna and even longer history of being part of separate nation from Sinhalas. They have their own language unrelated to Sinhala. Their own culture and religion. Still Buddhist Sinhalas, who are famed of their Orthodoxy, ruthlessly destroyed their nation building project. Are they not Buddhist?

    The great Fifth Dalai Lama ordered three invasions against Bhutan, when they tried to separate from Tibet, three times the Great Fifth Ones Mongol troops invaded Bhutan, was Dalai Lama Buddhist, were his Mongolian warriors?

    I admit that I am not good Buddhist, for I have no spiritual achievements, but in our religion even evil spirits and ogres can be Buddhist, although there is criteria, which I am too tired to explain to you.

    I too could easily cite Bible and claim falsely that you and Ukrainian nationalism are not Christian , like those progressive protestants love to do, how it was? There is no difference between Jew nor Scythian.... Christ is in all and all is in Christ, no circumcised, no uncircumcised etc. Still I would never claim such falsehoods. Actually I have respect towards you, for you seem to be one of the few religious persons in this forum. But please dont believe those Hollywood tropes about Buddhism, our religion is very pragmatic. There can be Buddhists against and for Ukraine, would you deny Christianity of someone from Donbass who hates the Ukrainian nationhood? Maybe its not good behaviour, but do you claim that someones Christianity can be lost in that way?

    In the end I strongly believe that welfare and fertility of Eastern Slavs would be better, if they would be united! Ukraine had Crimea and Donbass till 2014, 23 years of independence and where are the results? These are just rhetorical questions I know that you disagree, but believe me that my motivation is sincere, I truly wish the best for the Ukrainian people!

    (Actually there are also religious reasons for supporting Russia so strongly...)
  154. @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi


    But the Ukrainian nation is anathema for me, for its existence was born from mutilation of my beloved Russia, and as long that Frankensteins monster exists she will have a bleeding wound.
     
    Thank you for solidly confirming what I've suspected about you all along, that deep down inside you're a genuine Ukrainaphobe. All of your attestations of your "Buddhist faith" is just BS. Imagine a Buddhist being a Ukrainaphobe? A genuine Buddhist would shy away from the denigration of anybody's birthright as much as possible. You're as phoney as baloney, Mr. Buddhist!

    But still it seems to me infantile how much some people on this site, you included, have this need of constantly getting their nations nationhood affirmed, seems to arise from insecurity. You dont see same thing happening with French, Russians, Scandinavians, Japanese etc.
     
    I'm rather confident that you've never read a single book about Ukrainian history, and have obtained any knowledge about the topic second hand through Russian sources. Ukraine's historical evolution is different that all of the other countries that you've mentioned. Because for much of its modern history Ukraine was the in possession of two Empires, Austrian and Russia, its people weren't often allowed to pursue developing there own national agenda, especially within the Russian Empire. Many people, mostly Ukraine's intelligentsia experienced great censorship and discrimination for pursuing the support of their submerged nation. The "beloved Russia" that you're pledging your allegiance to, was indeed a "Prison of nations" for many centuries that employed all manner of guile and ruthlessness to try and cement its authoritarian rule over its subject nations.

    For USA Ukraine is just tool, a disposable tool, a razor, a landmine against the Russia, but for Russia Ukraine is part of itself, a lost brother, a prodigal son, same blood and spirit.
     
    More of your stupid, Ukrainaphobic dribble. I'm glad, however, that you've come clean and exposed your true nature and feelings about Ukraine. I'll be spending much less time reading your avalanche of comments here, and just characterize you as just another foolish internet Ukrainaphobic troll.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    I feel genuinely sad that I agitated you so much. I forgot that as an Orthodox Christian Anathema is a very strong word for you, and I should have chosen a better word. Lets say that I believe that most of Ukraine belongs in my opinion to Russia. At least 1667 borders, so Right bank Ukraine, Volhynia and Galicia could continue their existence as a Rump-Ukraine. Okay maybe the main part of Kiev lying west of Dnepr could be left. But please be honest with me Mr. Hack, by what logic you think that something like Kharkov belongs to Ukraine, because Soviets gave it to Ukrainian SSR? It has no history under Hetmanate etc.

    Thank you for solidly confirming what I’ve suspected about you all along, that deep down inside you’re a genuine Ukrainaphobe. All of your attestations of your “Buddhist faith” is just BS. Imagine a Buddhist being a Ukrainaphobe? A genuine Buddhist would shy away from the denigration of anybody’s birthright as much as possible. You’re as phoney as baloney, Mr. Buddhist!

    Sri Lankan Tamils had over four centuries of independence as Kingdom of Jaffna and even longer history of being part of separate nation from Sinhalas. They have their own language unrelated to Sinhala. Their own culture and religion. Still Buddhist Sinhalas, who are famed of their Orthodoxy, ruthlessly destroyed their nation building project. Are they not Buddhist?

    The great Fifth Dalai Lama ordered three invasions against Bhutan, when they tried to separate from Tibet, three times the Great Fifth Ones Mongol troops invaded Bhutan, was Dalai Lama Buddhist, were his Mongolian warriors?

    I admit that I am not good Buddhist, for I have no spiritual achievements, but in our religion even evil spirits and ogres can be Buddhist, although there is criteria, which I am too tired to explain to you.

    I too could easily cite Bible and claim falsely that you and Ukrainian nationalism are not Christian , like those progressive protestants love to do, how it was? There is no difference between Jew nor Scythian…. Christ is in all and all is in Christ, no circumcised, no uncircumcised etc. Still I would never claim such falsehoods. Actually I have respect towards you, for you seem to be one of the few religious persons in this forum. But please dont believe those Hollywood tropes about Buddhism, our religion is very pragmatic. There can be Buddhists against and for Ukraine, would you deny Christianity of someone from Donbass who hates the Ukrainian nationhood? Maybe its not good behaviour, but do you claim that someones Christianity can be lost in that way?

    In the end I strongly believe that welfare and fertility of Eastern Slavs would be better, if they would be united! Ukraine had Crimea and Donbass till 2014, 23 years of independence and where are the results? These are just rhetorical questions I know that you disagree, but believe me that my motivation is sincere, I truly wish the best for the Ukrainian people!

    (Actually there are also religious reasons for supporting Russia so strongly…)

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  155. @Europe Europa
    @AnonFromTN

    Although what land Poland has lost to those countries they've more than made up for in the land they've taken from Germany, so overall I don't think the Poles have done too bad in land wars.

    Replies: @but an humble craftsman

    True, but unmentionable.
    You see, Poles have feelings.

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