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Night in Novogrudok, Belarus (2017) by Pavel Gamburg.

Even though we tend to take it as a given, it isn’t exactly obvious why Belarus should be so much more “Russophile” than the Ukraine. The lands of White Russia were “regathered” into the Russian Empire well more than a century after Left-Bank Ukraine (the lands east of the River Dnieper, including Kiev). Both Ukrainians and Belorussians were subjected to korenizatsiya policies in the early USSR, in which their local, rustic identities were promoted as distinct to the Russian “chauvinist” culture which had held them in bondage (“prison of nations”) and which the Old Bolsheviks viewed as one of their prime enemies. Although solid majorities in both Ukraine (70%) and Belarus (83) voted for the preservation of the Soviet Union in the 1991 referendum, both countries elected nationalists upon attaining independence.

But their post-Soviet paths have sharply diverged. The Belarusian nationalist soon lost to Alexander Lukashenko, who promised to restore Soviet-era welfare guarantees and economic integration with Russia. In a 1995 referendum, 87% of Belorussians voted to make Russian an official language. Meanwhile, attempts to give the Russian language a similar status in the Ukraine were ideologically divisive and eventually helped kick off the Euromaidan. Opinion in the Ukraine on joining the EU vs. the Eurasian Union was usually at fifty-fifty even before the Euromaidan (e.g. 45% vs. 40% in 2013), while Belorussians have consistently favored integration with Russia by a large margin (e.g. 65% to 14% in 2017). (Since the Euromaidan, Ukrainian support for pursuing integration with Russia has – unsurprisingly – cratered). Furthermore, this is all despite the fact that there are twice as many ethnic Russians [russkie] in the Ukraine (17% in 2002) as in Belarus (8% in 2009).

Donetsk Lugansk BELARUS Kharkov S.E. UKR. Odessa Nikol. Dnepr. Zapor. Khers.
Armed resistance 11.9% 10.7% 14.2% 19.6% 20.9% 24.9% 31.0% 26.0% 25.9% 36.9%
Welcome them 12.6% 11.7% 16.5% 8.4% 7.0% 4.9% 4.7% 2.2% 2.5% 1.2%
Join the Russian Army 3.5% 2.5% 3.5% 2.1% 2.0% 0.0% 1.2% 0.7% 0.5%
Don’t interfere 55.4% 43.2% 47.7% 49.8% 46.9% 39.5% 36.2% 44.1% 48.6% 47.8%
Hard to say 15.6% 26.1% 21.6% 17.1% 20.5% 23.7% 26.3% 24.8% 19.0% 12.9%
Refuse to answer 1.0% 6.0% 1.7% 2.5% 4.9% 1.7% 1.7% 3.2% 0.7%
RATIO: Pro/anti-RUS 1.35 1.33 1.16 0.61 0.44 0.28 0.15 0.13 0.12 0.05

However, perhaps the best indication of these divergent attitudes can be illustrated by the answers to a poll question – posed to the denizens of South-East Ukraine and Belarus in April and June 2014, respectively – on what they would do if Russia was to send troops into their region. Even within the historical region of Novorossiya that Russian irredentists were dreaming about in 2014, the share of respondents who answered that they would respond with “armed resistance” was more than twice as high as those saying they’d welcome the Russian troops (or join them). The only two regions where more people were ready to support Russian troops than oppose them were Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts. Hard to imagine that it’s a coincidence that the People’s Republics successfully formed precisely in those two territories, while the attempted coups in Kharkov and Odessa – where anti-Russians were twice as numerous as pro-Russians – failed. As we can see from the above chart, Belarus neatly fits the profile of the Donbass – and that’s the country as a whole, from near totally Russified Gomel or Vitebsk, to the semi-Polonized north-west region designed as a buntive “Veyshnoria” during the Zapad-2017 war games with Russia. Consequently, it’s hard to imagine there being much in the way of popular Belorussian resistance to “little green men” in the event of a major crisis.

So even though the Russian (Great Russian) component in Belarus is lower than in Ukraine, the Belorussian identity as a whole is “in sync” with an All-Russian one to a much greater extent than is the Ukrainian one. Here, I will try to answer why.

***

French ethnographic map of European Russia, 1898.

Etymology

I suspect the most banal factor in “zmagarism” being less developed than Ukrainian svidomism being less developed is them simply being called White Russians. Hard to deny some degree of Russian identity when it’s literally in your name.

This may have been a similarly “pro-Russian” factor had the Ukrainians remained “Little Russians”, but the struggle between those two identities was conclusively resolved in favor of the former during the 1920s. Now sure, the Ukraine does literally translate to “borderlands”, and has in the past intermittently applied to various Russian regions, including Great Russian ones, which fit the description (the West European equivalent would be a “march”). But as has been pointed out since Ibn Khaldun, borderlanders often develop their own, strong local identities.

***

Map of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth after the Union of Lublin, 1569.

Deep History

During the 14th century, while their eastern brethren struggled to free themselves from the “Tatar yoke”, the territories of Belarus and the Ukraine came under Lithuanian rule. After the Union of Lublin in 1569 between the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, many of the Belorussian lands remained within Lithuania, while the Ukrainian ones were annexed by the Poles. As such, if one can view Ukraine as a Russian-Polish metis culture, then Belarus would be a Russian-Lithuanian one (and Moldova would be a Romanian-Russian one, to extend the comparison). Though ironically, unlike Ukraine, today’s Belarus retains a significant Polish minority because they didn’t ethnically cleanse them like the Ukrainians did during World War II.

But why did Lithuania leave a “lighter” cultural imprint? I suspect there are two reasons for that. The obvious one is demographics: Belorussians were significantly more numerous than Lithuanians, whereas it was the opposite case for Ukrainians and Poles. Second, it just so happens that whereas Poland was during the 17-18th centuries the most intellectually advanced of the East European states, as proxied by numeracy (i.e. what percentage of people knew precisely how old they were, as registered from graveyards, church records, etc.), Lithuania was the most backwards – even below the Belorussian lands. (Incidentally, the roots of Lithuanian backwardness may go very deep back in history, seeing as it was the last major European state to abandon paganism). It is thus plausible that Lithuania actually retarded Belorussian cultural development, whereas Poland enhanced Ukraine’s.

Another factor may have been that the center of Ukrainian nationalism during the period of the Russian Empire was in Lvov, where it was aggressively promoted by the Austro-Hungarian authorities in the decades before World War I. This coincided with the achievement of mass literacy, which Galicia reached one to two decades before the Russian heartlands. There is some interesting literature arguing that national identities tend to become “fixed” at precisely the point when mass literacy amongst school children is reached (e.g. see Keith Darden’s “Lessons from a Natural Experiment in Carpathian Ukraine“). Moreover, the center of Belorussian national-activism was Vilnius, where the opportunities for pushing an anti-Russian narrative was constrained by the fact of it being within the Russian Empire.*

***

The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (1918). Even the Germans did not seriously challenge Russian suzerainty over much of modern-day Belarus during Russia’s greatest moment of weakness, but what they failed at – the Bolsheviks would subsequently “fix.”

Russian Identity

One general trend that can be observed over centuries is that Belorussians seem to have been more comfortable in adopting a Russian identity – in terms of politics, culture, language, and even geopolitical loyalty – than Ukrainians.

In the Ukraine, it seems that for every Khmelnitsky, there was a Vyhovsky, for every Skoropadsky, a Mazepa. There have never been serious insurrections within Belorussia. During the Russian Civil War, there were a number of independent states in regions with a strong Little Russian presence, including even those that are today part of the Russian Federation (the Kuban, the Don Republic, and “Green Ukraine” in the Far East) and – if anything – more “patriotic” than the average. There were no such statelets in Belorussia apart from the very weak and short-lived Belarusian People’s Republic.

Between 1917 and 1947, the Russian World suffered an unprecedented demographic-humanitarian disaster thanks to the joint effects of Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler. During this period, its population remained broadly stagnant, despite fertility rates of around 6 children per woman at the start of this period; under demographic normality, it would have increased by at least 50%. Between the October Revolution and the end of World War II, the population of Russia within its current borders increased from about 92M to 97M, the population of Belarus increased from 7.0M to 7.5M, and the population of Ukraine fell from 35M to 33M.

However, the precise factors behind these disasters in each region were subtly different. Unlike the Ukraine – or, for that matter, parts of Russia, such as the Kuban and the Volga region – there was no collectivization famine in Belorussia during the 1930s. But Belarus would make up the difference during World War II, during which it lost 25% of its population – in large part due to German collective reprisals against villages suspected of harboring partisans. Children were kidnapped from Belorussian parents and used as disposable blood banks for German soldiers across 17 “donor concentration camps”. However, the very fact that there was a large-scale partisan movement in Belarus, which extended seamlessly into Russia proper, is also telling by itself. Meanwhile, after World War II, the USSR faced an insurgency in Galicia an order of magnitude bloodier than what the “forest brothers” in the Baltics managed.

This is therefore another distinction between the “lived experiences” of Belorussians and Ukrainians as pertains to Russia, reinforcing pre-existing trends. It was primarily outsiders – Germans, Westerners, of a sort – who inflicted the greatest amount of “trauma” on the former. But for Ukrainians, the Holodomor (~3M excess deaths) was broadly comparable in the scale of death to the results of the Nazi occupation (~5M civilian deaths). And in modern opinion polls, most Ukrainians consider the Holodomor to have been a genocide against them – though opinions differ on whether it was Soviets, Russians, or Jews who were most responsible. This is a questionable interpretation, since (Great) Russian areas suffered a similar number of excess deaths in absolute terms. Moreover, one may point out that neither Jugashvili, nor Kaganovich are Russian names. Even so, there are too many Russians, including in positions of influence, who are overly eager to trivialize or deny these tragedies – claiming that they didn’t happen; claiming that they happened on account of natural causes; even claiming that the US also experienced a famine with millions of excess deaths during the 1930s, which is something one encounters on the more “powerful” Stalinist blogs. Ukrainians are not incorrect to resent that and want to distance themselves from those elements. However, this is not an issue for Belorussians, who did not particularly suffer from the Soviet regime – and who are perhaps more “sovok” than the Russian average.

From left to right: Map of Russian Empire elections to the Second Duma (1907), Third Duma (1907), and Fourth Duma (1912). Black regions represent right-wing, moderate right, and nationalist forces across all three maps; the liberal right-wing Octobrists are included in the Black region for the first map, but are Blue in the second and third; Social Democrats and Social Revolutionaries are Red; Yellow regions represent Kadets and liberal forces; Orange regions represent national groups.

During the short-lived dawn of Russian electoral politics between the 1905 Revolution and the Bolshevik coup, the Belorussian territories consistently voted in line with Central Russia. Out of the 37 deputies elected to the Third Duma from the five Belorussian governorates (Vilna, Vitebsk, Grodno, Minsk, Mogilev), some 24 of them were representatives of nationalist and right-wing parties; this number rose to 27 during the Fourth Duma.

Russian Constituent Assembly election, 1917: Brown = Social Revolutionaries; Red = Bolsheviks; Green = Regional SR’s; Yellow = Local parties.

In the Constituent Assembly elections of 1917, a strong plurality of Belorussians voted for the Bolsheviks (though they only got an absolute majority in the Baltic provinces). This result was however in line with voting across much of Central Russia. Meanwhile, the Ukrainians – though not the Novorossiyans – voted for regional Social Revolutionary parties. In the Minsk governorate, the Belarusian Socialist Assembly – the first, and for a long time only, organization of Belarusian nationalists – got a mere 0.3% of the vote.

Unlike with Ukrainians, there was were no calls for autonomy (during the Provisional Government), nor subsequent demands for independence (after the October Revolution). The Third Assembly of Peasant Deputies of the Minsk and Vilna governorates issued a resolution declaring that “Belarus is an indivisible whole with the great revolutionary Russia.” The pronounced lack of “national” consciousness amongst the Belorussian peasantry was noted and lamented by local nationalists: “It got to the point that at the Peasant’s Assembly, the peasants renounced themselves, their language, and everything Belarusian in front of the whole world. “We don’t need Belarusians, down with Belarusians!” shouted the peasants and teachers, clenching their fists…” This obviously does not imply that Belorussians hated themselves, but that a political Belarusian identity had simply not made inroads amongst the popular masses.

Unsurprisingly, when the Bolsheviks launched their korenizatsiya policies during the 1920s, there was active discontent amongst its putative Belorussian beneficiaries, who harshly but not incorrectly viewed it as a useless peasant language that would constrain their opportunities for cultural advancement. In one famous letter from 1926, addressed to the Central Executive Committee of the USSR, representatives of the Polotsk intelligentsia wrote: “When for the first time the Belarusian language was introduced into the schools and institutions by decree, without any plebiscite, the population reacted to this reform so negatively that such voices began to be heard in the villages: “First, the Germans came to us, then the Poles, and now the Belarusians are attacking us…” That is, the population began to consider the Belarusifiers as their enemies.” These sentiments were sufficiently widespread to generate a steady stream of annoyed letters to the editors of Belarusian papers throughout the 1920s requesting that they switch to Russian instead of the broken Belarusian that they were forced to use. But Stalin, the guy then responsible for nationalities policy, was resolutely opposed, remarking at the 10th Bolshevik party Congress in 1921: “Here I see that allegations that we, Communists, are artificially foisting a Belorussian identity. This is incorrect, because there is a Belorussian nationality, which has its own language, distinct from Russian. As such, it’s only possible to raise the culture of the Belorussian people in their own people.

Although radical Belarusization was reversed from the mid-1930s, the epistemological foundations for long-term separateness had been successfully laid. Even the postwar concept of the “three Slavic brotherly peoples” affirmed the sundering of the Russian [russkie] people, which now came to refer exclusively to what had previously been Great Russians [velikorosy] as opposed to an identity that both Belorussians [belorosy] and Little Russians [malorosy] could belong to without contradiction.

Even so, unlike the case with many Ukrainians, the vast majority of Belorussians do still hold to the Soviet ideal of Slavic brotherhood, with large majorities supporting both the official status of the Russian language, and economic integration with Russia (though this sentiment stops short of wishing to fully merge into Russia, which only enjoys ~15% support). Russian language usage is near universal, including in rural areas – despite some limited Belarusization efforts since 2014. In the Ukraine, the Russian language is only dominant in the cities of Eastern and Central Ukraine. As of September 2020, all Ukrainian schools will transition to Ukrainian by decree, with the Russian language receding to the status of an elective foreign language, setting a symbolic capstone to 30 years of post-Soviet Ukrainization.

***

Zmagarism

Ukrainian nationalists can, at least in theory, dream of themselves as a Great European Power. On the collapse of the Soviet Union, their population of 52 million was comparable to that of the UK, France, and Italy – and their GDP per capita was higher than Poland’s. In 1991, President Leonid Kravchuk promised that within a decade, Ukraine would become a “Second France”. It didn’t quite work out. Ukraine’s population fell to 35-37 million, and it is now the second poorest country in Europe after Moldova. Even so, convergence to at least Poland’s level is still not entirely implausible.

More germane so far as nation-builders are concerned is that the Ukrainians can also look back to a history of independent statehood in the Hetmanate. Furthermore, their more “svidomy” elements can appropriate the history of “Kievan Rus”… although the term is a purely historiographic one coined by 19th century Russian historians, and its denizens called themselves Rus and had never even heard of “Ukraine”, there are but minor quibbles for committed svidomists who enjoy support at the highest official levels (recall Poroshenko’s remarks on Kiev building churches while Moscow was a swamp).

However, zmagarism – the Belarusian analogue of svidomism – is even more innately absurd. While the svidomy can at least pretend to be their own autochthonous civilization, occasionally embellished by medieval Cossack armadas (no, not kidding) by the most “powerful” amongst them, Belarusian zmagars can only larp as the “real” descendants of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (even though for much of that period, many of their own intellectual elites viewed themselves as part of the Russian World, e.g. the early 17th century Barkulab Chronicle treats the Muscovite princes with more sympathy their their own Lithuanian rulers).

Тhe most “powerful” zmagars find inspiration in the Principality of Polotsk in medieval Rus. In 2017, one such “historian” Olga Levko dated the foundation of Belarusian statehood to the 9th century, an endeavor in which she was supported by Lukashenko. However, the Polotsk larpers do at least have a cooler origin story than Litvin “we wuz Sarmatians” larpers. The Principality of Polotsk did produce one of the more colorful characters in Rus history – a guy called Vseslav the Sorcerer, who was rumored to be a werewolf. In 1068, he was color revolutioned from imprisonment into princeship in Kiev. (Some things never change). Though he only lasted in the position for seven months, before the old prince returned with a Polish army and kicked him out. After some further adventures, he returned to ruling over Polotsk in 1071, settled down, and built a bunch of churches.

***

In terms of its compatibility with a Russian identity, Belorussia isn’t even so much Novorossiya – which may well have “tipped over” into Russia in 2014, in the absence of committed nationalists from Western Ukraine – as Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts, even if its “Russophilia Quotient” falls short of outright Russian-majority Crimea and the territories that came to constitute the LDNR. This is undergirded both by deep history, and by a slower pace of de-Russification since 1991. Nonetheless, it is happening, and Lukashenko – his early promises of reintegrating with Russia aside – has been a central player in this, quietly repressing Russophiles while seeding positions of cultural influence to zmagars. Their larps might be ridiculous, but ultimately all nations begin as larps – the Aeneid is basically “we wuz Trojans” – and any larp, sustained for a sufficiently long period of time, will eventually become real. At which point they also become a great deal less ridiculous.

Consequently, the Belorussian Question remains very much an open one.

***

* I would like to thank the commenter AP for many of the arguments in this paragraph, and for bringing Darden’s work to my attention.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. “Children were kidnapped from Belorussian parents and used as disposable blood banks for German soldiers across 17 “donor concentration camps”. ” – LOL

    • Replies: @AP
    @utu

    Hard to imagine, but this is something Belarussians teach each other and others about:

    https://vetliva.com/tourism/what-to-see/memorialnyy-kompleks-na-meste-kontslagerya-v-derevne-krasnyy-bereg/

    Whether or not it happened, it has entered national mythology.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @reiner Tor
    @utu

    I don’t think it’s impossible, but perhaps a source would be needed. It sounds too rationally evil to be true. Simply killing the children would sound more believable. Especially since the Germans have killed lots of Belarusians anyway. But stranger things have happened.

    Replies: @AP

    , @El Dato
    @utu



    (((Tall Nazi Tales)))

    (((Soap made from human corpses)))

    Germans may be ready and willing to implement ultrakill, but it will be _clean_, with corpses neatly aligned and covered in lime. This ain't Africa.

    , @Exile
    @utu

    The memorial project from AK's link was led by a Levin. Anything a Levin is involved with regarding "German camps" should be approached with a lot of skepticism. It's as much a part of the Belarussian historical narrative as the rest of the Holocaust/concentration camps are in the rest of the world, but it's long past time we considered these claims in the same skeptical manner as we have with Apache smallpox blankets, Huns spitting babies on bayonets and Iraqi yellowcake.

  3. [MORE]

    (Incidentally, the roots of Lithuanian backwardness may go very deep back in history, seeing as it was the last major European state to abandon paganism).

    https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/some-notes-on-the-heathen-lithuania-and-its-demise/

    https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2013/02/10/the-end-of-the-heathens/

    So since globohomo is modern day progressive, you’re on board?

  4. Thank you for the excellent introduction to Belarus.

    • Thanks: Anatoly Karlin
  5. @utu
    "Children were kidnapped from Belorussian parents and used as disposable blood banks for German soldiers across 17 “donor concentration camps”. " - LOL

    Replies: @AP, @reiner Tor, @El Dato, @Exile

    Hard to imagine, but this is something Belarussians teach each other and others about:

    https://vetliva.com/tourism/what-to-see/memorialnyy-kompleks-na-meste-kontslagerya-v-derevne-krasnyy-bereg/

    Whether or not it happened, it has entered national mythology.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @AP

    Ultimately, it doesn’t matter if the Germans did it. Except as a historical curiosity, it might also color our views of Nazi Germany and perhaps Germans in general. It’d be so bizarre, killing the children by using their blood to save German soldiers. It’d also be pretty risky for the soldiers, since the children would be a constant source of infectious diseases. Simply killing the children would be no less evil, but more believable.

    Anyway, what really matters is that the Belarusians firmly believe in it.

    Replies: @AP

  6. You guys have got to figure out a way to get them back and pretty soon. How to do it? Remove Lukasheko (somehow) install a compromised successor and have him push a line of pan-east-slavic unity. No reason Russia can’t do color revolutions and psyops.

  7. @utu
    "Children were kidnapped from Belorussian parents and used as disposable blood banks for German soldiers across 17 “donor concentration camps”. " - LOL

    Replies: @AP, @reiner Tor, @El Dato, @Exile

    I don’t think it’s impossible, but perhaps a source would be needed. It sounds too rationally evil to be true. Simply killing the children would sound more believable. Especially since the Germans have killed lots of Belarusians anyway. But stranger things have happened.

    • Replies: @AP
    @reiner Tor

    I suppose kids' blood would be the cleanest and safest kind.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  8. @reiner Tor
    @utu

    I don’t think it’s impossible, but perhaps a source would be needed. It sounds too rationally evil to be true. Simply killing the children would sound more believable. Especially since the Germans have killed lots of Belarusians anyway. But stranger things have happened.

    Replies: @AP

    I suppose kids’ blood would be the cleanest and safest kind.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @AP

    I thought kids in concentration camps would be Petri dishes.

  9. @AP
    @utu

    Hard to imagine, but this is something Belarussians teach each other and others about:

    https://vetliva.com/tourism/what-to-see/memorialnyy-kompleks-na-meste-kontslagerya-v-derevne-krasnyy-bereg/

    Whether or not it happened, it has entered national mythology.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Ultimately, it doesn’t matter if the Germans did it. Except as a historical curiosity, it might also color our views of Nazi Germany and perhaps Germans in general. It’d be so bizarre, killing the children by using their blood to save German soldiers. It’d also be pretty risky for the soldiers, since the children would be a constant source of infectious diseases. Simply killing the children would be no less evil, but more believable.

    Anyway, what really matters is that the Belarusians firmly believe in it.

    • Replies: @AP
    @reiner Tor


    It’d also be pretty risky for the soldiers, since the children would be a constant source of infectious diseases.
     
    I haven't read about these camps before. I was thinking that since these special camps were kind of like blood banks and because Germans are meticulous people, the conditions would have been very hygienic. Young healthy kids kept in sanitary conditions would be safer bloodbanks than would be random adults.

    Anyway, what really matters is that the Belarusians firmly believe in it.
     
    Correct.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Anatoly Karlin, @Jim Christian

  10. @AP
    @reiner Tor

    I suppose kids' blood would be the cleanest and safest kind.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I thought kids in concentration camps would be Petri dishes.

  11. AP says:
    @reiner Tor
    @AP

    Ultimately, it doesn’t matter if the Germans did it. Except as a historical curiosity, it might also color our views of Nazi Germany and perhaps Germans in general. It’d be so bizarre, killing the children by using their blood to save German soldiers. It’d also be pretty risky for the soldiers, since the children would be a constant source of infectious diseases. Simply killing the children would be no less evil, but more believable.

    Anyway, what really matters is that the Belarusians firmly believe in it.

    Replies: @AP

    It’d also be pretty risky for the soldiers, since the children would be a constant source of infectious diseases.

    I haven’t read about these camps before. I was thinking that since these special camps were kind of like blood banks and because Germans are meticulous people, the conditions would have been very hygienic. Young healthy kids kept in sanitary conditions would be safer bloodbanks than would be random adults.

    Anyway, what really matters is that the Belarusians firmly believe in it.

    Correct.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @AP

    Well, that’d be logical, but the Germans usually squandered their slave resources. It’d be somewhat surprising if they managed to keep the children in sanitary conditions. Not impossible, but somewhat surprising.

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    There's been some understandably well publicized research about the rejuvenating effects of young blood transfusions, the taller claims of rejuvenation haven't panned out, but that it does have some interesting positive effects on health seems to be well established. We know that prewar people had more accurate ideas about some elements of science than we do today - things that come to mind include eugenics; light therapy; the keto diet as a method of weight loss (strongly advocated for by German-Jewish nutritionists, incidentally). It would not be incredible if they also believed young blood was best, this being a folk stereotype since at least Elizabeth Bathory coupled with the commonsense (and correct) intuition that stereotypes are most often accurate.

    Anyhow, while I can't say if donor concentration camps are a true story, exaggerated, or made up, I'll note that the Belarusians don't claim the children were killed afterwards - just that many of them did not survive.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @Jim Christian
    @AP


    I was thinking that since these special camps were kind of like blood banks and because Germans are meticulous people, the conditions would have been very hygienic.
     
    Until the Allies bombed the hell out of em, anyway.
  12. @AP
    @reiner Tor


    It’d also be pretty risky for the soldiers, since the children would be a constant source of infectious diseases.
     
    I haven't read about these camps before. I was thinking that since these special camps were kind of like blood banks and because Germans are meticulous people, the conditions would have been very hygienic. Young healthy kids kept in sanitary conditions would be safer bloodbanks than would be random adults.

    Anyway, what really matters is that the Belarusians firmly believe in it.
     
    Correct.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Anatoly Karlin, @Jim Christian

    Well, that’d be logical, but the Germans usually squandered their slave resources. It’d be somewhat surprising if they managed to keep the children in sanitary conditions. Not impossible, but somewhat surprising.

  13. How does Belarus’s performance in IQ, education and science compares with modern Ukraine ?

  14. Malorossiya < Buenorossiya (Velikorossiya)

  15. @AP
    @reiner Tor


    It’d also be pretty risky for the soldiers, since the children would be a constant source of infectious diseases.
     
    I haven't read about these camps before. I was thinking that since these special camps were kind of like blood banks and because Germans are meticulous people, the conditions would have been very hygienic. Young healthy kids kept in sanitary conditions would be safer bloodbanks than would be random adults.

    Anyway, what really matters is that the Belarusians firmly believe in it.
     
    Correct.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Anatoly Karlin, @Jim Christian

    There’s been some understandably well publicized research about the rejuvenating effects of young blood transfusions, the taller claims of rejuvenation haven’t panned out, but that it does have some interesting positive effects on health seems to be well established. We know that prewar people had more accurate ideas about some elements of science than we do today – things that come to mind include eugenics; light therapy; the keto diet as a method of weight loss (strongly advocated for by German-Jewish nutritionists, incidentally). It would not be incredible if they also believed young blood was best, this being a folk stereotype since at least Elizabeth Bathory coupled with the commonsense (and correct) intuition that stereotypes are most often accurate.

    Anyhow, while I can’t say if donor concentration camps are a true story, exaggerated, or made up, I’ll note that the Belarusians don’t claim the children were killed afterwards – just that many of them did not survive.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Anatoly Karlin


    Elizabeth Bathory
     
    I’d just mention that there are some historians in Hungary who claim that she was sentenced on trumped up charges and was basically innocent. She wrote several letters which show social responsibility, concern for the well-being of her serfs (who were numerous, as she was perhaps the richest Hungarian aristocrat at the time), and there are some documents referring to a hospital operated in her castle. It’s possible that the charges of black magic (?) and satanic practices might’ve originated in some medical practices there - after all, we’re talking about early 17th century medicine.

    What is clear is that both the Habsburg government and the palatine of Hungary at the time, Thurzó (another rich Hungarian aristocrat and the guardian of her children after the death of her husband) were set to gain from her imprisonments. The evidence is basically all coming from witnesses under torture, who were quickly executed afterwards. There are no records of statements by the relatives of the putative victims. So while she might have been a serial killer, there’s no real evidence of this.

    However it was, stories about her bathing in the blood of her victims or drinking their blood are probably later embellishments, since there’s no contemporary source for any of this. Even if lots of her maid servants were killed, or tortured to death, it’s questionable if she used their blood for anything.

    Re: the children dying. I think blood transfusion donors are normally required to be healthy adults, because losing so much blood is life threatening for children and even unhealthy adults.

  16. Re what AK notes above

    national identities tend to become “fixed” at precisely the point when mass literacy amongst school children is reached

    This points to something key about the world, how cultures are altered by what language is foisted upon elementary school students, in conjunction with parents going along with the idea that this language is how one gets ahead in life

    Compare India and Indonesia –

    In India there is a cornucopia of languages maintained locally and thriving because taught in primary schools, with English and to a lesser extent Hindi as link languages … the cultural diversity and chaos also thought to retard India as well as preserving some freedom amidst the anarchy

    In Indonesia – where Dutch had been the colonial and link language, over again many local languages – this was dramatically altered after independence in 1949, where the variety of Malay known as Bahasa – historically a regional language for trade – was nationally imposed as the elementary school language, unlike in India … so that today the local languages and cultures that went with them, are outright fading and disappearing, Indonesians being too poor and struggling to have time to resent this

    And this ‘national unity’ via a new ‘native’ language, is now serving as a one-stop conduit for fundamentalist Islam … whereas for centuries, Indonesian Islam had remained half-Hindu-pagan and thus moderate, the ancient gods and spirits of nature being maintained as Muslim jinn or angels-spirits

  17. In 20-39 period, lots of locals were calling themselves just “tutejsi” i.e. … “locals”. Plus, this was very poor region, with poor soil, poor roads and backward.

    • Thanks: Anatoly Karlin
  18. This is a lot of interesting verbiage which really can be boiled down to one fact. The USSR made a huge mistake absorbing Galicia, Bukovina and Transcarpathia into the Ukrainian SSR after WWII. All the Ukrainians in these territories were “Ruthenians”, who, as you correctly note, had formed their modern identity partly on anti-Russian propaganda from the Habsburgs. Ruthenians also have a large diaspora in Canada and the US who are rabidly anti-Russian and support nationalist movements in Ukraine. There is no similar “poison pill” population in Belarus.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AP
    @Peter Akuleyev

    True, however as AK points out in this article the rest of Ukraine that is not Donbas, while not as anti-Russian or nationalistic as Galicia, is still much more so than is Donbas/Belarus. And this was true even before the Galician "poison pill" was added. Petliura, Mazepa, Vyhovsky were not Galicians. Ukrainians from the Russian Empire were voting for nationalistic parties in 1917 without being in the same country as Galicia.

    http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CA%5CL%5CAll6RussianConstituentAssembly.htm

    Out of 36,260,000 votes cast throughout the territory of the former Russian Empire the Russian Socialist Revolutionaries (SRs) received 45.5 percent; the Bolsheviks, 24.9 percent; the Ukrainian Party of Socialist Revolutionaries, 9.5 percent; the Constitutional Democratic (kadet) party, 5.1 percent; the Russian Social Democratic Workers' party (Mensheviks), 1.8 percent; the Ukrainian Socialists (the name used at the front by the Ukrainian Socialist Revolutionaries and Social Democrats), 1.4 percent; and the Ukrainian Social Democratic Workers' party, 0.26 percent. In Ukraine the 7,580,000 votes cast were divided in the following way: the national groups (non-Russian parties) won 61.5 percent (among them the Ukrainian SRs won 45.3 percent); the Russian SRs, 24.8 percent; the Bolsheviks, 10 percent; and the Kadets, 3.7 percent. Of the 120 deputies elected in Ukraine, 71 were Ukrainian SRs, 2 were Ukrainian Social Democrats, 4 were from the national minorities (1 Pole, 2 Jews, 1 Moslem), 30 were Russian SRs, 11 were Bolsheviks, 1 was a Kadet, and 1 was from the Union of Landowners. In six districts where the bloc of Ukrainian socialist parties (SRs, the Peasant Association, and Social Democrats) presented a single list of candidates, it won a clear majority of the votes: 77 percent in Kyiv gubernia, 71 percent in Volhynia, 60 percent in Chernihiv gubernia, 60 percent in Poltava gubernia, 52 percent in Katerynoslav gubernia, and 33 percent in Tavriia gubernia. In Kharkiv gubernia and Kherson gubernia the Ukrainian and the Russian SRs ran together; therefore the Ukrainian SRs received only 12 percent of the votes in the former and 25 percent in the latter gubernia.

    ::::::::::::

    It is false to claim that there existed a "Ukraine" in the 12th century as Ukrainian nationalists like to imagine, but there were strong rivalries between Kiev and Galician Rus (proto-Ukraine) and Suzdalian Rus (proto-Moscow) even back then. So Kiev was seized and looted by a Suzdalian prince, locals overthrew his men in Kiev. Kiev was also seized and looted by Galicians, they were the ciity's owners when the Mongols invaded. At that point (12th-13th centuries) the languages probably had not diverged enough to be separate (the Ruthenian speech in what is now Ukraine wouldn't have gotten its massive influx of Polish words yet), it was likely only a difference in accents and isolated words, but there were already likely strong regional identities and resentments, as between the American North and South. It wasn't some sort of cohesive unified nation-state as Russian nationalists like to imagine.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  19. Their larps might be ridiculous, but ultimately all nations begin as larps – the Aeneid is basically “we wuz Trojans”

    I would note that the Aeneid was written when Rome was already firmly established as a great power.

  20. [MORE]

    Jewish Telegraphic Agency
    https://www.jta.org/1943/05/24/archive/nazis-use-blood-from-40000-jewish-children-for-wounded-german-soldiers

    Nazis Use Blood from 40,000 Jewish Children for Wounded German Soldiers (unknown date)

    “In spite of their “pure Aryan blood” theory, the Nazi authorities are now using blood taken from 40,000 Jewish children in occupied countries for transfusions for German soldiers wounded on the Russian front, it is reliably reported here today.”

    “The report reveals that no less than 40,000 Jewish children from Western Europe and occupied Poland have been concentrated by the Nazis in occupied France for the sole purpose of furnishing blood for wounded German soldiers.”

    War propaganda of Jewish provenance. Jewish schmalz and pornography. Jewish obsession with blood. Jewish projections. Jewish shameless manipulations. Jewish know how of power of words. Casting spells in Kabbalah until the words substantiate in the material world. And the word became the flesh in Belarus. Hallelujah!

    • Agree: Kent Nationalist
  21. @AP
    @reiner Tor


    It’d also be pretty risky for the soldiers, since the children would be a constant source of infectious diseases.
     
    I haven't read about these camps before. I was thinking that since these special camps were kind of like blood banks and because Germans are meticulous people, the conditions would have been very hygienic. Young healthy kids kept in sanitary conditions would be safer bloodbanks than would be random adults.

    Anyway, what really matters is that the Belarusians firmly believe in it.
     
    Correct.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Anatoly Karlin, @Jim Christian

    [MORE]

    I was thinking that since these special camps were kind of like blood banks and because Germans are meticulous people, the conditions would have been very hygienic.

    Until the Allies bombed the hell out of em, anyway.

  22. @Peter Akuleyev
    This is a lot of interesting verbiage which really can be boiled down to one fact. The USSR made a huge mistake absorbing Galicia, Bukovina and Transcarpathia into the Ukrainian SSR after WWII. All the Ukrainians in these territories were “Ruthenians”, who, as you correctly note, had formed their modern identity partly on anti-Russian propaganda from the Habsburgs. Ruthenians also have a large diaspora in Canada and the US who are rabidly anti-Russian and support nationalist movements in Ukraine. There is no similar “poison pill” population in Belarus.

    Replies: @AP

    True, however as AK points out in this article the rest of Ukraine that is not Donbas, while not as anti-Russian or nationalistic as Galicia, is still much more so than is Donbas/Belarus. And this was true even before the Galician “poison pill” was added. Petliura, Mazepa, Vyhovsky were not Galicians. Ukrainians from the Russian Empire were voting for nationalistic parties in 1917 without being in the same country as Galicia.

    http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CA%5CL%5CAll6RussianConstituentAssembly.htm

    Out of 36,260,000 votes cast throughout the territory of the former Russian Empire the Russian Socialist Revolutionaries (SRs) received 45.5 percent; the Bolsheviks, 24.9 percent; the Ukrainian Party of Socialist Revolutionaries, 9.5 percent; the Constitutional Democratic (kadet) party, 5.1 percent; the Russian Social Democratic Workers’ party (Mensheviks), 1.8 percent; the Ukrainian Socialists (the name used at the front by the Ukrainian Socialist Revolutionaries and Social Democrats), 1.4 percent; and the Ukrainian Social Democratic Workers’ party, 0.26 percent. In Ukraine the 7,580,000 votes cast were divided in the following way: the national groups (non-Russian parties) won 61.5 percent (among them the Ukrainian SRs won 45.3 percent); the Russian SRs, 24.8 percent; the Bolsheviks, 10 percent; and the Kadets, 3.7 percent. Of the 120 deputies elected in Ukraine, 71 were Ukrainian SRs, 2 were Ukrainian Social Democrats, 4 were from the national minorities (1 Pole, 2 Jews, 1 Moslem), 30 were Russian SRs, 11 were Bolsheviks, 1 was a Kadet, and 1 was from the Union of Landowners. In six districts where the bloc of Ukrainian socialist parties (SRs, the Peasant Association, and Social Democrats) presented a single list of candidates, it won a clear majority of the votes: 77 percent in Kyiv gubernia, 71 percent in Volhynia, 60 percent in Chernihiv gubernia, 60 percent in Poltava gubernia, 52 percent in Katerynoslav gubernia, and 33 percent in Tavriia gubernia. In Kharkiv gubernia and Kherson gubernia the Ukrainian and the Russian SRs ran together; therefore the Ukrainian SRs received only 12 percent of the votes in the former and 25 percent in the latter gubernia.

    ::::::::::::

    It is false to claim that there existed a “Ukraine” in the 12th century as Ukrainian nationalists like to imagine, but there were strong rivalries between Kiev and Galician Rus (proto-Ukraine) and Suzdalian Rus (proto-Moscow) even back then. So Kiev was seized and looted by a Suzdalian prince, locals overthrew his men in Kiev. Kiev was also seized and looted by Galicians, they were the ciity’s owners when the Mongols invaded. At that point (12th-13th centuries) the languages probably had not diverged enough to be separate (the Ruthenian speech in what is now Ukraine wouldn’t have gotten its massive influx of Polish words yet), it was likely only a difference in accents and isolated words, but there were already likely strong regional identities and resentments, as between the American North and South. It wasn’t some sort of cohesive unified nation-state as Russian nationalists like to imagine.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Thanks: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    I agree with most of your arguments apart from the Galicia+Kiev/proto-Ukraine and Suzdal/proto-Moscow concept. But as I said, I'll address that in some future post.

  23. The Russian nationalist obsession with Ukraine and Belarus strikes me as insecurity and pettiness, it would be like Germans refusing to recognise Dutch as a separate people and nation.

    Some of the crazier ones even seem half-tempted to claim Poland and the Czech Republic as part of the “great Rus”, and probably would if it wasn’t for the slight complication of them being Catholic not Orthodox.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Europe Europa

    Eventually, in the far future, I hope you will say something accurate.

    , @Svevlad
    @Europe Europa

    It's less about what is, but what should be.

    Germanic languages are basically a dialect continuum barring English, which can be easily integrated anyway. Romance languages also. Slavic the most.

    Being a bunch of small irrelevant countryoids = extinction and extermination.

    , @Peter Akuleyev
    @Europe Europa

    In the 19th century a lot of German nationalists did see the Dutch as another German tribe. Certainly Dutch is not much further from Hochdeutsch than most Alemannic dialects, and is mutually intelligible with the Plattdeutsch that used to be widely spoken across Northern Germany just three generations ago.

    , @utu
    @Europe Europa

    Some Russian nationalists when they give up on claiming Poles or Czechs as their own touch another string, which is very similar to what Hitler wrote in his 2nd book, i.e., they play the note of greatness and destiny. That Poles and Czechs destiny is mediocrity while that of Russian is that of greatness. One can detect this note being played by some commenters here.


    https://www.unz.com/gdurocher/hitler-vs-kalergi/#comment-3705253
    If in the future our people continues living with the same political thoughtlessness as in the past, it will ultimately have to renounce the claim to international significance. It will become more and more stunted racially, until it finally deteriorates into degenerate, brutish gluttons who will not even remember the past greatness. In the context of the future international state hierarchy, it will be at most what Switzerland and Holland were in the previous Europe.
     
    I am pretty sure that Ukrainians and Belarusians just like Poles and Czechs are OK with the international insignificantly of Swiss and Dutch with the degeneracy of consumerism and good life to that of international significance that Russian nationalists can find somewhere in their phantasies and dreams.

    Russian nationalists want greatness as they want to be on par with America just like Hitler wanted to be on par with Great Britain and they are irritated with and feel contempt for Czechs and Poles just like Hitler felt contempt for Dutch and Swiss.

    Replies: @AP, @Anatoly Karlin

    , @Denis
    @Europe Europa

    You exhibit insecurity and pettiness in most of your posts.

  24. @Europe Europa
    The Russian nationalist obsession with Ukraine and Belarus strikes me as insecurity and pettiness, it would be like Germans refusing to recognise Dutch as a separate people and nation.

    Some of the crazier ones even seem half-tempted to claim Poland and the Czech Republic as part of the "great Rus", and probably would if it wasn't for the slight complication of them being Catholic not Orthodox.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Svevlad, @Peter Akuleyev, @utu, @Denis

    Eventually, in the far future, I hope you will say something accurate.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi, Denis
  25. The last thing we need is more nationalities in Europe. Fuck it, they’re all piss poor, bait them into all moving to Russia for work where they’ll assimilate.

    Germany is doing it for us with the neighbors, hehe

  26. @Europe Europa
    The Russian nationalist obsession with Ukraine and Belarus strikes me as insecurity and pettiness, it would be like Germans refusing to recognise Dutch as a separate people and nation.

    Some of the crazier ones even seem half-tempted to claim Poland and the Czech Republic as part of the "great Rus", and probably would if it wasn't for the slight complication of them being Catholic not Orthodox.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Svevlad, @Peter Akuleyev, @utu, @Denis

    It’s less about what is, but what should be.

    Germanic languages are basically a dialect continuum barring English, which can be easily integrated anyway. Romance languages also. Slavic the most.

    Being a bunch of small irrelevant countryoids = extinction and extermination.

    • Agree: Ano4
  27. AP says:

    The Russian nationalist obsession with Ukraine and Belarus strikes me as insecurity and pettiness,

    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn’t simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.

    Of course, in Ukraine’s case union simply isn’t feasible, at least not in the foreseeable future. Post 2014 actions have solidified this. An invasion would just make things worse; there would be a cycle of insurrection and repression, and Kiev would achieve 1940s Galician levels of Russia-hatred.

    it would be like Germans refusing to recognise Dutch as a separate people and nation.

    Correct.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Maïkl Makfaïl
    @AP


    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn’t simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.
     
    Agree. And if Russia manages to unleash economic growth, Russian still being the number 1 démography and army in Europe, all Eastern Europe and Scandinavia would eventually fall into Russian orbit ( except Poland of course ) by the simple strength of commerce , and then the whole Europe would be dominated by this new Russian empire and its slavic masses . By dominating and integrating the different parts of Europe one after another Russia can compensate for its relative shortage of population . Russia is the only country that has the potential to be the center of gravity of the Eurasian contient. Germany will be a declining of country in the future.

    Of course, in Ukraine’s case union simply isn’t feasible, at least not in the foreseeable future. Post 2014 actions have solidified this. An invasion would just make things worse; there would be a cycle of insurrection and repression, and Kiev would achieve 1940s Galician levels of Russia-hatred.
     
    I wouldnt be so categorical . According to polls the support for EU integration in Ukraine has already fallen to 42 % from over 60 % several months ago. And a Russian invasion would be a massive demonstration of force , would bring to an end Kievs anti Russian propaganda and would open economic perspectives for Ukrainians => would be met with enthusiasm.

    Replies: @Derer, @AP, @Philip Owen

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @AP


    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn’t simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.
     
    Radical idea, but maybe if Russians want great power status for their country they can simply have more babies? I mean, even with its current borders and population, there is nothing that would, in theory, prevent Russians from having larger families and thus causing their population to increase naturally. Israel manages to do it even right now in spite of both being overpopulated and being a developed country, after all. Why, why exactly can't Russia do the same thing considering that it has much more Lebensraum than Israel has?

    By the way, considering that many Muslim countries are not exactly pleasant places, I really don't want to see the elimination of one of the few Muslim countries (specifically Kazakhstan) that are actually pretty decent. I mean, other than the Central Asian countries, Turkey, and perhaps Bosnia, I'm unsure that there are any Muslim countries that I would be particularly eager to visit. Maybe Malaysia and Indonesia? I'm not sure. But anyway, a lot of Muslim countries are dumps (either economically or in terms of political attitudes) and thus Kazakhstan needs to maintain its independence in order to serve as a positive inspiration for these other Muslim countries to reform and to clean up their act.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @reiner Tor

    , @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free
     
    This applies only to civilized city Kazakhs. Uneducated semi-illiterate village Kazakhs (those that breed the fastest) are their equivalent of “svidomy” and “zmagars”.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    This is somewhat OT but annexing Kazakhstan would be a catastrophic decision.
    Benefits:
    (1) 3 million Russians
    (2) Baikonur
    Problems:
    (1) 15 million more Muslims (even if moderate ones), making Peter Akuleyev's fantasies into reality at a single stroke.
    (2) With an average IQ of ~85 and TFR of ~3. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/map-of-kazakhstan-iq/
    (3) With their own developed national consciousness (they voted for national parties in 1917).
    Even the most hardcore irredentist Russian nationalists only seriously talk of North Kazakhstan/South Siberia. (I am of the opinion that even that train has left the station).

    Replies: @Ano4

  28. @Europe Europa
    The Russian nationalist obsession with Ukraine and Belarus strikes me as insecurity and pettiness, it would be like Germans refusing to recognise Dutch as a separate people and nation.

    Some of the crazier ones even seem half-tempted to claim Poland and the Czech Republic as part of the "great Rus", and probably would if it wasn't for the slight complication of them being Catholic not Orthodox.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Svevlad, @Peter Akuleyev, @utu, @Denis

    In the 19th century a lot of German nationalists did see the Dutch as another German tribe. Certainly Dutch is not much further from Hochdeutsch than most Alemannic dialects, and is mutually intelligible with the Plattdeutsch that used to be widely spoken across Northern Germany just three generations ago.

  29. @AP

    The Russian nationalist obsession with Ukraine and Belarus strikes me as insecurity and pettiness,
     
    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn't simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.

    Of course, in Ukraine's case union simply isn't feasible, at least not in the foreseeable future. Post 2014 actions have solidified this. An invasion would just make things worse; there would be a cycle of insurrection and repression, and Kiev would achieve 1940s Galician levels of Russia-hatred.

    it would be like Germans refusing to recognise Dutch as a separate people and nation.
     
    Correct.

    Replies: @Maïkl Makfaïl, @Mr. XYZ, @AnonFromTN, @Anatoly Karlin

    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn’t simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.

    Agree. And if Russia manages to unleash economic growth, Russian still being the number 1 démography and army in Europe, all Eastern Europe and Scandinavia would eventually fall into Russian orbit ( except Poland of course ) by the simple strength of commerce , and then the whole Europe would be dominated by this new Russian empire and its slavic masses . By dominating and integrating the different parts of Europe one after another Russia can compensate for its relative shortage of population . Russia is the only country that has the potential to be the center of gravity of the Eurasian contient. Germany will be a declining of country in the future.

    Of course, in Ukraine’s case union simply isn’t feasible, at least not in the foreseeable future. Post 2014 actions have solidified this. An invasion would just make things worse; there would be a cycle of insurrection and repression, and Kiev would achieve 1940s Galician levels of Russia-hatred.

    I wouldnt be so categorical . According to polls the support for EU integration in Ukraine has already fallen to 42 % from over 60 % several months ago. And a Russian invasion would be a massive demonstration of force , would bring to an end Kievs anti Russian propaganda and would open economic perspectives for Ukrainians => would be met with enthusiasm.

    • Replies: @Derer
    @Maïkl Makfaïl


    all Eastern Europe and Scandinavia would eventually fall into Russian orbit ( except Poland of course )
     
    And where would Poland fall? Their tourist buses in the West are soiled with eggs and tomatoes. It is not difficult to find out the backroom group (with international connections) having real grip on the power in Poland and Ukraine - you will find the epicenter of the problem.
    , @AP
    @Maïkl Makfaïl


    Agree . And if Russia manages to unleash economic growth, Russian still being the number 1 démography and army in Europe
     
    If.

    At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It's not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes. That's not going to draw everyone into its orbit.

    By the end of 2013 Russia the gap in terms of wealth between Ukraine and Russia was the greatest it had ever been. And yet Ukraine turned away from Russia. Since Maidan, Ukraine has already started to narrow the gap with Russia. By early 2020 it had turned the clock back to 2011 in terms of per capita GDP PPP discrepancy between the two countries.


    According to polls the support for EU integration in Ukraine has already fallen to 42 % from over 60 % several months ago.
     
    When was this? Most recent poll by KIIS was in February 2020:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=927&page=5

    Pretty stable 51% for, 26% against, rest don't care. So if this were a referendum EU wins 66.5% to 35.5%. EU wins in the West, Center and South and only loses in the East of the country.

    Support for NATO at 44%, an increase from 40% in February 2019 though not as high as 48% when the war in the East was hotter. Opposition to NATO at 31% so NATO would win a referendum. Regionally, NATO wins in the West and Center but loses in the South and East.


    And a Russian invasion would be a massive demonstration of force , would bring to an end Kievs anti Russian propaganda and would open economic perspectives for Ukrainians => would be met with enthusiasm.
     
    Wishful thinking. It would simply bring destruction, resistance, more destruction, and hatred. As anywhere else under similar circumstances.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Derer, @anonlb, @Maïkl Makfaïl

    , @Philip Owen
    @Maïkl Makfaïl

    Russia's slide into autarky is destroying its chances of becoming an economic power. Subsidizing every firm that makes a case for import substitution is a massive drain on capital. The state has been captured by producer interests like the UK in the 1950's and 60's. Consumers matter more in the end.

  30. Overall a good posting where Anatoly has shown some thought and research. There are, however, a few spots that deserve more careful analysis:

    So even though the Russian (Great Russian) component in Belarus is lower than in Ukraine, the Belorussian identity as a whole is “in sync” with an All-Russian one to a much greater extent than is the Ukrainian one

    Although this may be true, the idea of Byelorussians and Ukrainians converging closer together than either nationality to the Great Russian one, is probably more accurate overall. I’ve posted this informative little article a couple of times now that makes this point very clear, by showing the almost imperceptible differences between the historical evolution between these neighborly communities for many centuries, definitely worth reading and appreciating this point: “Does Belarusian-Ukrainian Civilization Belong to the Western or the Latin Civilization? ” https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2048&context=ccr

    There are several popular historical figures that both Belorusians and Ukrainians hold in high esteem, that the Great Russians do not.

    Prince and and Grand Hetman of Lithuania, Konstnaty Ostrogki, the victor of scores of significant battles, the founder and beneficial, the founder and benefactor of the Ostrog Academy that is still a viable institution of learning to this day. Here’s a tribute to Hetman Ostrogski commemorating his spectacular victory (30,000 vs 80,000) at Orsha defeating the Muscovites, sung in the Belorusian language, taken from a native folk song:

    Prince Fyodr Koriatovych, who after taking a leading role in the Battle of Bluewaters that expelled the Tatar Horde from southern Rus, resettled from Belorus to Podolia and later to Zakarpattya, known as a great benefactor of Ruthenian culture building many new towns in the area.

    • LOL: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    A huge painting by Han Krell, commemorating the victory at Orsha. Pull out your magnifying glass and you can see Prince Konstanti on his white horse crossing the river towards the top of the stream he is crossing, leading his troops (the zoom function works even better!:-)). He is dressed in dark colors with a black hat and a red shield in hand.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Autor_nieznany_%28malarz_z_kr%C4%99gu_Lukasa_Cranacha_Starszego%29%2C_Bitwa_pod_Orsz%C4%85.jpg

    , @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Byelorussians and Ukrainians converging closer together than either nationality to the Great Russian one, is probably more accurate overall.
     
    The native cultures are closer to each other than either is to Russian. However for various reasons Belarusians have "Russified" to a large extent, so this similarity is irrelevant. It just means that long ago there was "raw material" with which some sort of Ukrainian-Belarussian union could have been constructed (or Belarussians could have been fused with Ukrainians) but the time for that passed many generations ago. IIRC Khmelytsky was struggling with Moscow over control of Belarus but failed to secure it under his authority. That probably would have been the chance:

    http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?AddButton=pages%5CK%5CH%5CKhmelnytskyBohdan.htm

    The issue of the legitimate historical boundaries of the Cossack state brought the Belarusian question to the forefront of Ukrainian politics. The Zaporozhian Cossacks were interested in Belarus as early as the 16th century, as is evident from Hryhorii Loboda's and Severyn Nalyvaiko's campaigns. Khmelnytsky paid close attention to Belarus from the very beginning of his uprising. He supported the Cossack movement led by Konstantin Paklonski in eastern Belarus. A Belarusian regiment under the control of the Zaporozhian Host existed in 1655–7. In 1656 Khmelnytsky took under his protection Slutsk principality, which belonged to Prince B. Radziwiłł, then in 1657 Staryi Bykhau, granting it the right to free trade with Ukraine, and finally, on 8 July 1657, at the request of the Pynsk nobility, Pynsk, Mozyr, and Turiv counties. These actions greatly disturbed Muscovy, which began, in Viacheslav Lypynsky's words, ‘the struggle of two Rus’es over the third Rus’.’ Although Khmelnytsky's death put an end to Ukraine's expansion into Belarusian territory, the tradition of a ‘Rus’ state’ was preserved in the policies of Ivan Vyhovsky, and traces of it can be found even later.

    Prince and and Grand Hetman of Lithuania, Konstnaty Ostrogki, the victor of scores of significant battles, the founder and beneficial, the founder and benefactor of the Ostrog Academy that is still a viable institution of learning to this day.
     
    He was indeed a great man and figure who would be worthy of building a national narrative around. However he was a steadfast patriot of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and thus of no use for Ukrainian natonalists, who have plenty of other people such as Mazepa, Khmelnytsky, etc. They venerate the PLC patriot Sahaidachny of course, but that may be because he is the only significant Galician of the Cossack era and because he played a large role in organizing the institutions of the nascent Cossack state.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  31. @Mr. Hack
    Overall a good posting where Anatoly has shown some thought and research. There are, however, a few spots that deserve more careful analysis:

    So even though the Russian (Great Russian) component in Belarus is lower than in Ukraine, the Belorussian identity as a whole is “in sync” with an All-Russian one to a much greater extent than is the Ukrainian one
     
    Although this may be true, the idea of Byelorussians and Ukrainians converging closer together than either nationality to the Great Russian one, is probably more accurate overall. I've posted this informative little article a couple of times now that makes this point very clear, by showing the almost imperceptible differences between the historical evolution between these neighborly communities for many centuries, definitely worth reading and appreciating this point: "Does Belarusian-Ukrainian Civilization Belong to the Western or the Latin Civilization? " https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2048&context=ccr

    There are several popular historical figures that both Belorusians and Ukrainians hold in high esteem, that the Great Russians do not.

    Prince and and Grand Hetman of Lithuania, Konstnaty Ostrogki, the victor of scores of significant battles, the founder and beneficial, the founder and benefactor of the Ostrog Academy that is still a viable institution of learning to this day. Here's a tribute to Hetman Ostrogski commemorating his spectacular victory (30,000 vs 80,000) at Orsha defeating the Muscovites, sung in the Belorusian language, taken from a native folk song:

    https://youtu.be/74AR_Zr0cyQ

    Prince Fyodr Koriatovych, who after taking a leading role in the Battle of Bluewaters that expelled the Tatar Horde from southern Rus, resettled from Belorus to Podolia and later to Zakarpattya, known as a great benefactor of Ruthenian culture building many new towns in the area.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Fiodar_Karyjatavi%C4%8D._%D0%A4%D1%91%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%80_%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8B%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%96%D1%87.jpg/220px-Fiodar_Karyjatavi%C4%8D._%D0%A4%D1%91%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%80_%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8B%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%96%D1%87.jpg

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    A huge painting by Han Krell, commemorating the victory at Orsha. Pull out your magnifying glass and you can see Prince Konstanti on his white horse crossing the river towards the top of the stream he is crossing, leading his troops (the zoom function works even better!:-)). He is dressed in dark colors with a black hat and a red shield in hand.

  32. I agree with most of what Anatoly and AP wrote. I would only add that when we look at current Belarussian/Russian/Ukrainian situation, we might want to look simultaneously further back in the past and further forward in the future.

    In the past we have ancient Rus lamds, dominated by Rus warrior aristocracy, mainly populated by Slavs extending their influence upon their Vlakh, Baltic, Ugric and even some of their Turk and Caucasus neighbors. Then we have ancient Rus fragmentation with Muscovite Russia falling under the domination of the Golden Horde for a couple of centuries, while Belarus and Ukraine were conquered by their Lithuanian and Polish neighbors. This strongly accentuated regional differences between the Eastern Slavs and added the Catholic and Uniate angle to the religious landscape.

    Eventually, Muscovite Rus was able to regain its independence from its Tatar overlords and then in turn subjugated them by conquering Kazan and Astrakhan after the Horde was weakened by a civil war and Black Plague. This increased the Turk influence on the Russian culture. Many people don’t know, but many Russian aristocracy had Turkic roots and that nobles and merchants in XV – XVI century Muscovy were quite often bilingual in Tatar Turk and the Muscovite Slav dialects. We can also add that Finno-Ugric populations have been mainly assimilated into Muscovite Russian nation.

    During that time the Rus nobility of Belarus and Ukraine adopted more and more Western European influences, many of the higher aristocracy becoming Polonized and converting to Uniate Faith or Catholicism. Therefore, Rus lands kept drifting apart for some 500 years. Some among the Rus/Ruthenian schlachta and Muscovite nobility resented this, but were unable to stop this process.

    Finally, Muscovy became a Tsardom and after that a westernized Empire under heavily German admixed Romanovs. This Empire brought under its power the main part of ancient Rus lands and even added Baltic states, Finland and a large part of Poland. It also finished off Tatars and broke the neck of Ottoman Turks. It colonized Central Asia, extended all the way up to Alaska and Northern California, used Hawaii as a naval base and prepared the annexation of Manchuria and a part of Korea.

    Despite all these outstanding achievements, or maybe because of them, the complete cultural unification of the ancient Rus lands has not been achieved under the Tsars. Although the general trend was towards the Velikoross (Russian) culture being seen as the main trend for the development of Eastern Slavs.

    Unfortunately for all parties involved, Tsardom fell pray to its own weaknesses and Western European betrayal and agression. As a consequence, Great, Small and White Russian lands were not yet fused in a single nation when Revolution put a wedge between them through the affirmative action towards cultural minorities. The genocide of the most energetic parts of Ukrainian and Russian populations during Soviet induced Terror and starvation and then German invasion, deprived these populations of many among their best human resources. Ideological stifling of the cultural development made building up of a common Slavic identity impossible. Soviet Nomenklatura were not interested in allowing for a Slavic national awakening in the USSR.

    When USSR fell, regional elites of Communist Nomenklatura and regional organized crime clans seized different former USSR republics to loot their riches and become the new capitalist elites. The population of the Eastern Slavs dropped significantly and their economy took a hit from which it did not recover until this very day. The majority of people in the former Rus lands saw their future prospects degraded. The answer to this predicament was more nationalism in Russia and Ukraine, these two branches of Eastern Slav nationalism negating each other. Russian Federation somewhat recovered due to its oil and gas wealth and a strong MIC. Ukraine went downhill on all accounts, Belarus stagnated in some quasi Soviet authoritarianism ruled by a former Kolkhoz director.

    The future for all three branches of the Eastern Slavs is currently bleak. The decreasing population, deindustrialization, falling natural resources prices and the clash of nationalisms, especially the Ukrainian and the Russian ones, make collaboration hard to forsee in a short term period. But in a longer run in order to survive and prosper, Eastern Slavs will have to either swim together or drown apart.

    Anyone who wishes well to Eastern Slavs should work towards transforming their regional nationalisms into a common Eastern Slav (Rus/Ruthenian) nationalism. The final aim being rebuilding a New Rus/Ruthenian confederation between Lvov and Vladivostok. Even if it takes 2-3 generations it is still a worthy choice compared to degradation and depopulation trends we witness today.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4


    Anyone who wishes well to Eastern Slavs should work towards transforming their regional nationalisms into a common Eastern Slav (Rus/Ruthenian) nationalism. The final aim being rebuilding a New Rus/Ruthenian confederation between Lvov and Vladivostok. Even if it takes 2-3 generations it is still a worthy choice compared to degradation and depopulation trends we witness today.
     
    This vision is perhaps laudable, but not very realistic. History moves forward and not backwards, and it's highly unlikely that even within 3 generations it would be achievable (but who knows?). Personally, being an observer on the sidelines, I too can see many benefits of a closer cooperation between the three East Slavic neighbors. Unfortunately, at least in Ukraine's example, there is nothing at all that points to a union of any sort where Ukrainian language and cultural rights would be respected and supported. It's always been, and I'm sorry to say, will always be that within any union of this sort the ever present oppressive nature of Russification will raise its ugly head. Even during Yanukovych's term, his man Tabachnyk, the head of Educational and Cultural affairs, would have Ukrainian textbooks screened for "political correctness" by censors in Moscow. Face it, Russian political and cultural leaders have never really been able to stomach Ukrainian cultural aspirations (it's really too bad). Even our fearless leader here, Karlin, seems to proudly display books favorably disposed to the black Hundreds movement, on his personal bookshelve.
    Just for information? :-)

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mikhail

  33. @utu
    "Children were kidnapped from Belorussian parents and used as disposable blood banks for German soldiers across 17 “donor concentration camps”. " - LOL

    Replies: @AP, @reiner Tor, @El Dato, @Exile

    [MORE]

    (((Tall Nazi Tales)))

    (((Soap made from human corpses)))

    Germans may be ready and willing to implement ultrakill, but it will be _clean_, with corpses neatly aligned and covered in lime. This ain’t Africa.

  34. @Europe Europa
    The Russian nationalist obsession with Ukraine and Belarus strikes me as insecurity and pettiness, it would be like Germans refusing to recognise Dutch as a separate people and nation.

    Some of the crazier ones even seem half-tempted to claim Poland and the Czech Republic as part of the "great Rus", and probably would if it wasn't for the slight complication of them being Catholic not Orthodox.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Svevlad, @Peter Akuleyev, @utu, @Denis

    Some Russian nationalists when they give up on claiming Poles or Czechs as their own touch another string, which is very similar to what Hitler wrote in his 2nd book, i.e., they play the note of greatness and destiny. That Poles and Czechs destiny is mediocrity while that of Russian is that of greatness. One can detect this note being played by some commenters here.

    https://www.unz.com/gdurocher/hitler-vs-kalergi/#comment-3705253
    If in the future our people continues living with the same political thoughtlessness as in the past, it will ultimately have to renounce the claim to international significance. It will become more and more stunted racially, until it finally deteriorates into degenerate, brutish gluttons who will not even remember the past greatness. In the context of the future international state hierarchy, it will be at most what Switzerland and Holland were in the previous Europe.

    I am pretty sure that Ukrainians and Belarusians just like Poles and Czechs are OK with the international insignificantly of Swiss and Dutch with the degeneracy of consumerism and good life to that of international significance that Russian nationalists can find somewhere in their phantasies and dreams.

    Russian nationalists want greatness as they want to be on par with America just like Hitler wanted to be on par with Great Britain and they are irritated with and feel contempt for Czechs and Poles just like Hitler felt contempt for Dutch and Swiss.

    • Replies: @AP
    @utu

    Nice catch!

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @utu

    This post is classic small nation cope. While hobbitdom does have its charms, there are a couple of problems with it:

    (1) There are certain achievements that are forever beyond their rich simply on account of economies on scale. E.g., Poland literally "cannot into space."

    They also cannot be autarkic in either economics or culture (heroic counter-examples like Best Korea aside), leaving them at the mercy of vicissitudes in the world's real top dogs.

    (2) The mask of moral superiority it pretends to also happens to be fake and gay. As soon as these small nations somehow acquire real power, they tend to become quite vicious little predators themselves.

    Replies: @Anon 2, @Exile, @reiner Tor

  35. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack
    Overall a good posting where Anatoly has shown some thought and research. There are, however, a few spots that deserve more careful analysis:

    So even though the Russian (Great Russian) component in Belarus is lower than in Ukraine, the Belorussian identity as a whole is “in sync” with an All-Russian one to a much greater extent than is the Ukrainian one
     
    Although this may be true, the idea of Byelorussians and Ukrainians converging closer together than either nationality to the Great Russian one, is probably more accurate overall. I've posted this informative little article a couple of times now that makes this point very clear, by showing the almost imperceptible differences between the historical evolution between these neighborly communities for many centuries, definitely worth reading and appreciating this point: "Does Belarusian-Ukrainian Civilization Belong to the Western or the Latin Civilization? " https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2048&context=ccr

    There are several popular historical figures that both Belorusians and Ukrainians hold in high esteem, that the Great Russians do not.

    Prince and and Grand Hetman of Lithuania, Konstnaty Ostrogki, the victor of scores of significant battles, the founder and beneficial, the founder and benefactor of the Ostrog Academy that is still a viable institution of learning to this day. Here's a tribute to Hetman Ostrogski commemorating his spectacular victory (30,000 vs 80,000) at Orsha defeating the Muscovites, sung in the Belorusian language, taken from a native folk song:

    https://youtu.be/74AR_Zr0cyQ

    Prince Fyodr Koriatovych, who after taking a leading role in the Battle of Bluewaters that expelled the Tatar Horde from southern Rus, resettled from Belorus to Podolia and later to Zakarpattya, known as a great benefactor of Ruthenian culture building many new towns in the area.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Fiodar_Karyjatavi%C4%8D._%D0%A4%D1%91%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%80_%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8B%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%96%D1%87.jpg/220px-Fiodar_Karyjatavi%C4%8D._%D0%A4%D1%91%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%80_%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8B%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%96%D1%87.jpg

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    Byelorussians and Ukrainians converging closer together than either nationality to the Great Russian one, is probably more accurate overall.

    The native cultures are closer to each other than either is to Russian. However for various reasons Belarusians have “Russified” to a large extent, so this similarity is irrelevant. It just means that long ago there was “raw material” with which some sort of Ukrainian-Belarussian union could have been constructed (or Belarussians could have been fused with Ukrainians) but the time for that passed many generations ago. IIRC Khmelytsky was struggling with Moscow over control of Belarus but failed to secure it under his authority. That probably would have been the chance:

    http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?AddButton=pages%5CK%5CH%5CKhmelnytskyBohdan.htm

    The issue of the legitimate historical boundaries of the Cossack state brought the Belarusian question to the forefront of Ukrainian politics. The Zaporozhian Cossacks were interested in Belarus as early as the 16th century, as is evident from Hryhorii Loboda’s and Severyn Nalyvaiko’s campaigns. Khmelnytsky paid close attention to Belarus from the very beginning of his uprising. He supported the Cossack movement led by Konstantin Paklonski in eastern Belarus. A Belarusian regiment under the control of the Zaporozhian Host existed in 1655–7. In 1656 Khmelnytsky took under his protection Slutsk principality, which belonged to Prince B. Radziwiłł, then in 1657 Staryi Bykhau, granting it the right to free trade with Ukraine, and finally, on 8 July 1657, at the request of the Pynsk nobility, Pynsk, Mozyr, and Turiv counties. These actions greatly disturbed Muscovy, which began, in Viacheslav Lypynsky’s words, ‘the struggle of two Rus’es over the third Rus’.’ Although Khmelnytsky’s death put an end to Ukraine’s expansion into Belarusian territory, the tradition of a ‘Rus’ state’ was preserved in the policies of Ivan Vyhovsky, and traces of it can be found even later.

    Prince and and Grand Hetman of Lithuania, Konstnaty Ostrogki, the victor of scores of significant battles, the founder and beneficial, the founder and benefactor of the Ostrog Academy that is still a viable institution of learning to this day.

    He was indeed a great man and figure who would be worthy of building a national narrative around. However he was a steadfast patriot of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and thus of no use for Ukrainian natonalists, who have plenty of other people such as Mazepa, Khmelnytsky, etc. They venerate the PLC patriot Sahaidachny of course, but that may be because he is the only significant Galician of the Cossack era and because he played a large role in organizing the institutions of the nascent Cossack state.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP


    He was indeed a great man and figure who would be worthy of building a national narrative around. However he was a steadfast patriot of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and thus of no use for Ukrainian natonalists
     
    I'm not quite sure how you've come to this conclusion, but by the volume of books written about the man and his family (mostly histories but also some popular novels too) and his cause and its meaning within the context of Ukrainian statehood, I would come to an opposite conclusion. Also, his name is revered, as could be expected, by his admirers among young students and graduates of the Ostrog Academy, that figure to play large roles as future Ukrainian leaders. That he fought under a PLC flag, he always upheld the honer of his own ethnicity (he probably actually fought under his own family crest). His importance for Ukraine has not been lost, thankfully, by Ukraine's bureaucratic and governmental policymakers:

    https://www.istpravda.com.ua/images/doc/d/b/db6576d-o-marka.jpg

  36. Interesting post, though I have some objections/notes to make.

    For one, when you touch on Gomel being Russified and other parts of Russian language in Belarus I can only smirk. While it is true that in some places the amount of people that speak Russian on paper is about 100%, the Russian many speak would be nigh unidentifiable to many people living in Moscow. I live in the far Southern fringe of inhabitable Gomel and most people here speak a variation upon what people might call Polesian.

    On the topic of Lithuanianization vs Polonification I think you missed the rather obvious fact that they’re different language groups. Even if related Baltic and Slavic are nevertheless very different in both syntax and vocabulary. I’ve tried to learn Lithuanian before and frankly I must note that geographic proximity of our peoples actually only makes there an abundance of what language learners call “false-friends.”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_friend
    Literary Belarusian is a bit of a sham language I will concur however. There are two main variants, the narkomowka and Tarashkevitsa. Both are hilarious mish-mashes of local dialects, the former more accurate to Belarus as a whole while the latter is more accurate to the centre and East of the country (interestingly enough this is the preferred variant of the zmagars) made much earlier by a hardcore bolshevik when the USSR had a far smaller Belarusian territory to sample linguistics off of. The only positive thing I have to say about tarashkevitsa is that the only word for jew is “zhyd”, or “kike” when translated to English. Alas, the faggotry of the state department insured that this was soon remedied with “habrey” as a more PC variant by the diasporoid government in exile.

    Fun fact, Boris Kowerda was a Russian nationalist (or more accurately a monarchist) that in his exile was driven to assassinate soviet ambassadors. He spoke Belarusian out of necessity way before the Soviet Union implemented korenization policies and worked as a an editor for Belarusian language newspapers so I am very, very skeptical of the whole “Belarusian language usage is a product of Stalinist korenization”.

    The disconnect between peasantry and nobility is also worthwhile to note here I suppose. The nobles integrated very well with the Lithuanians converting to Catholicism, taking on Lithuanian names and family names. They were happy to go with the Greco-Catholic heresy. The commonfolk, the proles and such were overwhelmingly apathetic to their Lithuanian overlords. Whenever Russians showed up to Belarusian locales after conquering them from the PLC the locales showed up welcoming them similar to say, French welcoming American GIs showing up in nazi occupied France, and funnily enough they only demands they ever offered were things like a chance to massacre all the jews of the locale previously protected by the Poles and Lithuanians. In the many uprisings of the PLC, people from the area of modern day Belarus were the most fierce and the Ruthenians of modern day Belarus were described as the most savage; looters, murderers, etc. This is probably not just propaganda and likely was fairly true. After all given these rebels were almost entirely peasants as opposed to the South of what we now know as Ukraine that had many noble defectors, the uprisings in Belarus were quite literally legions of what today we know as gopniks and football hooligans.

    I’ll have to for myself stick with a stance in the golden mean of the zmagar and Russian nationalist interpretations of what Belarus is and Belarusians are.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Belarusian Dude

    Lithuaninization? - I remember reading that it was the other way around. Lithuanian colonizers/conquerors got Ruthenized or should I say Belorusianized. Lithuanians quickly adopted local languages and no correspondence in state and business matters was conducted in Lithuanian. The mythology constructed by modern Lithuanian nationalists in 19s and 20s centuries on which they based Lithuanian nationhood is just a fancy construction. Though they were more successful than Belorusians in this construction of nationhood because their language was significantly distinct from Polish, Ruthenian and Russian while Belorussians constituted a fuzzy set, a mishmash of languages.

    Replies: @Belarusian Dude

    , @Belarusian Dude
    @Belarusian Dude

    Latching onto this comment, Belarusian identity struggled to develop properly unlikea Ukrainian one because it lacked a loyal elite. Ukraine had Shevchenko, Khmelnytsky, Gogol, Mikluha-Maklai, the Skoropadsky family and yes even Bandera. Our entire smart fraction either dissolved into Lithuanian, Polish or Russian societies unlike the less cosmopolitan Ukrainians who had many post medieval heroes. This is why unfortunately Belarusian poetry for example is mediocre at best, our greatest of writers like Kupala only switching to Belarusian after finding no success in either Russian or Polish. With the language and culture only having any real existence among oft illiterate proles it is no surprise its easy for our neighbours to ridicule our culture. Zmagars have had to resort to claiming men like Tadeusz Kosciuzko and other people who literally never spole a work of Belarusian in their lives for themselves which makes the whole affair more pathetic.

    That said, I'm perfectly fine with Belarusianism staying in the common people. This might of course reek of swine right and anti intellectualism but I don't really care.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @Dmitry
    @Belarusian Dude


    word for jew is “zhyd”, or “kike” when translated to English
     
    Because in languages developed from the old slavyansky language, "zhyd" had always been the neutral (or standard) word for Jews, except in recent Russian and Ukrainian languages. It is just an old word for "Jew" for more than thousand years and was used in religious commentary.

    It developed a hostile meaning in Russian language from the 19th century, because Jews then complained and wanted to be called "Hebrews", and Russian language and Russian government had accepted this. So after being called "Hebrews" was preferred by Jews in the Russian language, and actually the authorities has agreed to adopt it, then the old referent became the hostile terminology for Jews.

    In non-Russian speaking slavic countries, "zhyd" is a normal word for Jews - the Jewish museum in Poland is called "Muzeum Historii Zydow Polskich".
    https://www.polin.pl/pl/o-muzeum

    Or in Prague, Jewish museum is - "Zidovske Muzeum" https://www.jewishmuseum.cz/

    -

    A pattern of contemporary misanthropic words for nationalities, being the normal words of previous generations, is a typical one. And then a certain kind of modern journalists can search for the "xenophobia" in 19th century authors, from the use of old ethnonyms in their texts.

    One of the most arbitrary are recent English language attitudes to ethnonym of word "negro" (Latin) vs "black" (saxon). In English, there is usually a Latin and a saxon word for most things. (Saxon word has a slightly more informal connotation than the Latin one, but there is normally Latin words are not considered more hostile than saxon.)

    In Latin languages (and also other languages like Russian, etc) "negro", of course, has not more hostile connotation than would be adoption of a saxon word "black".

    Yet as a result of historical arbitrary contingency, you could nowadays probably be beaten in Harlem, for using Latin word for colour absorbing material, instead of the "correct" saxon one. Here is something about the philosophy of languages - the meaning of words are at the foundation arbitrary historical accidents, and the practical significance: knowledge of local tribal sensitivities - mistake in choosing which is the neutral, and which is misanthropic word, for nationalities, can probably result in being lynched by residents of Harlem or Detroit.

    Another of the more surreal ones is that in English language "Polacy" - it is viewed as the most racist word for Poles. So perhaps it could be possible to be beaten, or at least not invited for dinner, by gastarbaiters in Polish districts of London, if they interpreted hostile intention when you used the same words that in Polish language describes their own nationality.

    Replies: @AP, @EldnahYm

  37. @Europe Europa
    The Russian nationalist obsession with Ukraine and Belarus strikes me as insecurity and pettiness, it would be like Germans refusing to recognise Dutch as a separate people and nation.

    Some of the crazier ones even seem half-tempted to claim Poland and the Czech Republic as part of the "great Rus", and probably would if it wasn't for the slight complication of them being Catholic not Orthodox.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Svevlad, @Peter Akuleyev, @utu, @Denis

    You exhibit insecurity and pettiness in most of your posts.

  38. @utu
    @Europe Europa

    Some Russian nationalists when they give up on claiming Poles or Czechs as their own touch another string, which is very similar to what Hitler wrote in his 2nd book, i.e., they play the note of greatness and destiny. That Poles and Czechs destiny is mediocrity while that of Russian is that of greatness. One can detect this note being played by some commenters here.


    https://www.unz.com/gdurocher/hitler-vs-kalergi/#comment-3705253
    If in the future our people continues living with the same political thoughtlessness as in the past, it will ultimately have to renounce the claim to international significance. It will become more and more stunted racially, until it finally deteriorates into degenerate, brutish gluttons who will not even remember the past greatness. In the context of the future international state hierarchy, it will be at most what Switzerland and Holland were in the previous Europe.
     
    I am pretty sure that Ukrainians and Belarusians just like Poles and Czechs are OK with the international insignificantly of Swiss and Dutch with the degeneracy of consumerism and good life to that of international significance that Russian nationalists can find somewhere in their phantasies and dreams.

    Russian nationalists want greatness as they want to be on par with America just like Hitler wanted to be on par with Great Britain and they are irritated with and feel contempt for Czechs and Poles just like Hitler felt contempt for Dutch and Swiss.

    Replies: @AP, @Anatoly Karlin

    Nice catch!

  39. @Belarusian Dude
    Interesting post, though I have some objections/notes to make.

    For one, when you touch on Gomel being Russified and other parts of Russian language in Belarus I can only smirk. While it is true that in some places the amount of people that speak Russian on paper is about 100%, the Russian many speak would be nigh unidentifiable to many people living in Moscow. I live in the far Southern fringe of inhabitable Gomel and most people here speak a variation upon what people might call Polesian.

    On the topic of Lithuanianization vs Polonification I think you missed the rather obvious fact that they're different language groups. Even if related Baltic and Slavic are nevertheless very different in both syntax and vocabulary. I've tried to learn Lithuanian before and frankly I must note that geographic proximity of our peoples actually only makes there an abundance of what language learners call "false-friends."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_friend
    Literary Belarusian is a bit of a sham language I will concur however. There are two main variants, the narkomowka and Tarashkevitsa. Both are hilarious mish-mashes of local dialects, the former more accurate to Belarus as a whole while the latter is more accurate to the centre and East of the country (interestingly enough this is the preferred variant of the zmagars) made much earlier by a hardcore bolshevik when the USSR had a far smaller Belarusian territory to sample linguistics off of. The only positive thing I have to say about tarashkevitsa is that the only word for jew is "zhyd", or "kike" when translated to English. Alas, the faggotry of the state department insured that this was soon remedied with "habrey" as a more PC variant by the diasporoid government in exile.

    Fun fact, Boris Kowerda was a Russian nationalist (or more accurately a monarchist) that in his exile was driven to assassinate soviet ambassadors. He spoke Belarusian out of necessity way before the Soviet Union implemented korenization policies and worked as a an editor for Belarusian language newspapers so I am very, very skeptical of the whole "Belarusian language usage is a product of Stalinist korenization".

    The disconnect between peasantry and nobility is also worthwhile to note here I suppose. The nobles integrated very well with the Lithuanians converting to Catholicism, taking on Lithuanian names and family names. They were happy to go with the Greco-Catholic heresy. The commonfolk, the proles and such were overwhelmingly apathetic to their Lithuanian overlords. Whenever Russians showed up to Belarusian locales after conquering them from the PLC the locales showed up welcoming them similar to say, French welcoming American GIs showing up in nazi occupied France, and funnily enough they only demands they ever offered were things like a chance to massacre all the jews of the locale previously protected by the Poles and Lithuanians. In the many uprisings of the PLC, people from the area of modern day Belarus were the most fierce and the Ruthenians of modern day Belarus were described as the most savage; looters, murderers, etc. This is probably not just propaganda and likely was fairly true. After all given these rebels were almost entirely peasants as opposed to the South of what we now know as Ukraine that had many noble defectors, the uprisings in Belarus were quite literally legions of what today we know as gopniks and football hooligans.

    I'll have to for myself stick with a stance in the golden mean of the zmagar and Russian nationalist interpretations of what Belarus is and Belarusians are.

    Replies: @utu, @Belarusian Dude, @Dmitry

    Lithuaninization? – I remember reading that it was the other way around. Lithuanian colonizers/conquerors got Ruthenized or should I say Belorusianized. Lithuanians quickly adopted local languages and no correspondence in state and business matters was conducted in Lithuanian. The mythology constructed by modern Lithuanian nationalists in 19s and 20s centuries on which they based Lithuanian nationhood is just a fancy construction. Though they were more successful than Belorusians in this construction of nationhood because their language was significantly distinct from Polish, Ruthenian and Russian while Belorussians constituted a fuzzy set, a mishmash of languages.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Belarusian Dude
    @utu

    Either I am not understanding you or you are not understanding me. When I mentioned Lithuanization I just used it as a shorthand to address the topic of our patron discussing why Belarus failed to take on so many cultural traits of Lithuania, as opposed to the more pronounced cultural osmosis from PL->UA

  40. @Ano4
    I agree with most of what Anatoly and AP wrote. I would only add that when we look at current Belarussian/Russian/Ukrainian situation, we might want to look simultaneously further back in the past and further forward in the future.

    In the past we have ancient Rus lamds, dominated by Rus warrior aristocracy, mainly populated by Slavs extending their influence upon their Vlakh, Baltic, Ugric and even some of their Turk and Caucasus neighbors. Then we have ancient Rus fragmentation with Muscovite Russia falling under the domination of the Golden Horde for a couple of centuries, while Belarus and Ukraine were conquered by their Lithuanian and Polish neighbors. This strongly accentuated regional differences between the Eastern Slavs and added the Catholic and Uniate angle to the religious landscape.

    Eventually, Muscovite Rus was able to regain its independence from its Tatar overlords and then in turn subjugated them by conquering Kazan and Astrakhan after the Horde was weakened by a civil war and Black Plague. This increased the Turk influence on the Russian culture. Many people don't know, but many Russian aristocracy had Turkic roots and that nobles and merchants in XV - XVI century Muscovy were quite often bilingual in Tatar Turk and the Muscovite Slav dialects. We can also add that Finno-Ugric populations have been mainly assimilated into Muscovite Russian nation.

    During that time the Rus nobility of Belarus and Ukraine adopted more and more Western European influences, many of the higher aristocracy becoming Polonized and converting to Uniate Faith or Catholicism. Therefore, Rus lands kept drifting apart for some 500 years. Some among the Rus/Ruthenian schlachta and Muscovite nobility resented this, but were unable to stop this process.

    Finally, Muscovy became a Tsardom and after that a westernized Empire under heavily German admixed Romanovs. This Empire brought under its power the main part of ancient Rus lands and even added Baltic states, Finland and a large part of Poland. It also finished off Tatars and broke the neck of Ottoman Turks. It colonized Central Asia, extended all the way up to Alaska and Northern California, used Hawaii as a naval base and prepared the annexation of Manchuria and a part of Korea.

    Despite all these outstanding achievements, or maybe because of them, the complete cultural unification of the ancient Rus lands has not been achieved under the Tsars. Although the general trend was towards the Velikoross (Russian) culture being seen as the main trend for the development of Eastern Slavs.

    Unfortunately for all parties involved, Tsardom fell pray to its own weaknesses and Western European betrayal and agression. As a consequence, Great, Small and White Russian lands were not yet fused in a single nation when Revolution put a wedge between them through the affirmative action towards cultural minorities. The genocide of the most energetic parts of Ukrainian and Russian populations during Soviet induced Terror and starvation and then German invasion, deprived these populations of many among their best human resources. Ideological stifling of the cultural development made building up of a common Slavic identity impossible. Soviet Nomenklatura were not interested in allowing for a Slavic national awakening in the USSR.

    When USSR fell, regional elites of Communist Nomenklatura and regional organized crime clans seized different former USSR republics to loot their riches and become the new capitalist elites. The population of the Eastern Slavs dropped significantly and their economy took a hit from which it did not recover until this very day. The majority of people in the former Rus lands saw their future prospects degraded. The answer to this predicament was more nationalism in Russia and Ukraine, these two branches of Eastern Slav nationalism negating each other. Russian Federation somewhat recovered due to its oil and gas wealth and a strong MIC. Ukraine went downhill on all accounts, Belarus stagnated in some quasi Soviet authoritarianism ruled by a former Kolkhoz director.

    The future for all three branches of the Eastern Slavs is currently bleak. The decreasing population, deindustrialization, falling natural resources prices and the clash of nationalisms, especially the Ukrainian and the Russian ones, make collaboration hard to forsee in a short term period. But in a longer run in order to survive and prosper, Eastern Slavs will have to either swim together or drown apart.

    Anyone who wishes well to Eastern Slavs should work towards transforming their regional nationalisms into a common Eastern Slav (Rus/Ruthenian) nationalism. The final aim being rebuilding a New Rus/Ruthenian confederation between Lvov and Vladivostok. Even if it takes 2-3 generations it is still a worthy choice compared to degradation and depopulation trends we witness today.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Anyone who wishes well to Eastern Slavs should work towards transforming their regional nationalisms into a common Eastern Slav (Rus/Ruthenian) nationalism. The final aim being rebuilding a New Rus/Ruthenian confederation between Lvov and Vladivostok. Even if it takes 2-3 generations it is still a worthy choice compared to degradation and depopulation trends we witness today.

    This vision is perhaps laudable, but not very realistic. History moves forward and not backwards, and it’s highly unlikely that even within 3 generations it would be achievable (but who knows?). Personally, being an observer on the sidelines, I too can see many benefits of a closer cooperation between the three East Slavic neighbors. Unfortunately, at least in Ukraine’s example, there is nothing at all that points to a union of any sort where Ukrainian language and cultural rights would be respected and supported. It’s always been, and I’m sorry to say, will always be that within any union of this sort the ever present oppressive nature of Russification will raise its ugly head. Even during Yanukovych’s term, his man Tabachnyk, the head of Educational and Cultural affairs, would have Ukrainian textbooks screened for “political correctness” by censors in Moscow. Face it, Russian political and cultural leaders have never really been able to stomach Ukrainian cultural aspirations (it’s really too bad). Even our fearless leader here, Karlin, seems to proudly display books favorably disposed to the black Hundreds movement, on his personal bookshelve.
    Just for information? 🙂

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    There is no need for cultural homogenization. Let a hundred flowers bloom. Maybe people should learn the three Eastern Slav languages in order to understand each other. Better still, use Church Slavonic updated for modern scientific and technical purposes as a tool for communication between different Rus/Ruthenian branches. Zionists did it for Hebrew, which was mainly a liturgical language, and it worked miracles.

    Besides, the most important thing is increasing industrial activity and natural resources transformation to benefit all local populations and significantly increase birth rates. The project should be first and foremost a means towards the preservation of the Eastern Slavs populations and a rational long-term economic use of their common territory. Also it should absolutely include industrial and scientific development, including technology upgrades, especially the potentially disruptive ones.

    Political coordination should be increased, but not to a point of outright integration and cultural integration should be avoided. Despite what most people think culture and language are secondary. The Helvetic confederation should be the example to follow. Including the strong regional direct democracy aspect.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack


    Unfortunately, at least in Ukraine’s example, there is nothing at all that points to a union of any sort where Ukrainian language and cultural rights would be respected and supported. It’s always been, and I’m sorry to say, will always be that within any union of this sort the ever present oppressive nature of Russification will raise its ugly head. Even during Yanukovych’s term, his man Tabachnyk, the head of Educational and Cultural affairs, would have Ukrainian textbooks screened for “political correctness” by censors in Moscow. Face it, Russian political and cultural leaders have never really been able to stomach Ukrainian cultural aspirations (it’s really too bad).
     
    Not true as acknowledged by Subtelny. Post-1800s, the Russian Whites expressed and showed the willingness to respect the Ukrainian language. Its faults aside, the USSR didn't suppress Ukrainian identity as much as making sure it conformed with a certain guideline - something done with other Soviet based ethnic groups - Russians included.

    Regarding Tabachnyk, post-Soviet and pre-Yanukovych as well as post-Yanukovych, there has been the reverse situation of people not respecting pro-Russian Ukraine based sentiment.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  41. @Maïkl Makfaïl
    @AP


    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn’t simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.
     
    Agree. And if Russia manages to unleash economic growth, Russian still being the number 1 démography and army in Europe, all Eastern Europe and Scandinavia would eventually fall into Russian orbit ( except Poland of course ) by the simple strength of commerce , and then the whole Europe would be dominated by this new Russian empire and its slavic masses . By dominating and integrating the different parts of Europe one after another Russia can compensate for its relative shortage of population . Russia is the only country that has the potential to be the center of gravity of the Eurasian contient. Germany will be a declining of country in the future.

    Of course, in Ukraine’s case union simply isn’t feasible, at least not in the foreseeable future. Post 2014 actions have solidified this. An invasion would just make things worse; there would be a cycle of insurrection and repression, and Kiev would achieve 1940s Galician levels of Russia-hatred.
     
    I wouldnt be so categorical . According to polls the support for EU integration in Ukraine has already fallen to 42 % from over 60 % several months ago. And a Russian invasion would be a massive demonstration of force , would bring to an end Kievs anti Russian propaganda and would open economic perspectives for Ukrainians => would be met with enthusiasm.

    Replies: @Derer, @AP, @Philip Owen

    all Eastern Europe and Scandinavia would eventually fall into Russian orbit ( except Poland of course )

    And where would Poland fall? Their tourist buses in the West are soiled with eggs and tomatoes. It is not difficult to find out the backroom group (with international connections) having real grip on the power in Poland and Ukraine – you will find the epicenter of the problem.

  42. AP says:
    @Maïkl Makfaïl
    @AP


    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn’t simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.
     
    Agree. And if Russia manages to unleash economic growth, Russian still being the number 1 démography and army in Europe, all Eastern Europe and Scandinavia would eventually fall into Russian orbit ( except Poland of course ) by the simple strength of commerce , and then the whole Europe would be dominated by this new Russian empire and its slavic masses . By dominating and integrating the different parts of Europe one after another Russia can compensate for its relative shortage of population . Russia is the only country that has the potential to be the center of gravity of the Eurasian contient. Germany will be a declining of country in the future.

    Of course, in Ukraine’s case union simply isn’t feasible, at least not in the foreseeable future. Post 2014 actions have solidified this. An invasion would just make things worse; there would be a cycle of insurrection and repression, and Kiev would achieve 1940s Galician levels of Russia-hatred.
     
    I wouldnt be so categorical . According to polls the support for EU integration in Ukraine has already fallen to 42 % from over 60 % several months ago. And a Russian invasion would be a massive demonstration of force , would bring to an end Kievs anti Russian propaganda and would open economic perspectives for Ukrainians => would be met with enthusiasm.

    Replies: @Derer, @AP, @Philip Owen

    Agree . And if Russia manages to unleash economic growth, Russian still being the number 1 démography and army in Europe

    If.

    At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It’s not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes. That’s not going to draw everyone into its orbit.

    By the end of 2013 Russia the gap in terms of wealth between Ukraine and Russia was the greatest it had ever been. And yet Ukraine turned away from Russia. Since Maidan, Ukraine has already started to narrow the gap with Russia. By early 2020 it had turned the clock back to 2011 in terms of per capita GDP PPP discrepancy between the two countries.

    According to polls the support for EU integration in Ukraine has already fallen to 42 % from over 60 % several months ago.

    When was this? Most recent poll by KIIS was in February 2020:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=927&page=5

    Pretty stable 51% for, 26% against, rest don’t care. So if this were a referendum EU wins 66.5% to 35.5%. EU wins in the West, Center and South and only loses in the East of the country.

    Support for NATO at 44%, an increase from 40% in February 2019 though not as high as 48% when the war in the East was hotter. Opposition to NATO at 31% so NATO would win a referendum. Regionally, NATO wins in the West and Center but loses in the South and East.

    And a Russian invasion would be a massive demonstration of force , would bring to an end Kievs anti Russian propaganda and would open economic perspectives for Ukrainians => would be met with enthusiasm.

    Wishful thinking. It would simply bring destruction, resistance, more destruction, and hatred. As anywhere else under similar circumstances.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @AP


    At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It’s not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes. That’s not going to draw everyone into its orbit.
     
    Well, Italian or perhaps French levels of GDP ppp per capita.

    Anyway, though, as I've previously said, if Russia wants more people, there's an easy way to make them--just get Russians to have more babies--and so do in a non-dysgenic way!

    Replies: @Miro23

    , @Derer
    @AP

    Russia is the richest and largest country in the world...that is the biggest envy and thorn in the eye of the US ruling clique (I presume you have rudimentary intelligence to know that I am not referring to puppet Trump or Biden). A sinister clique that has been long decoded in the mind of Russian people; the same clique that has fading grip on Poland and Ukraine. Sanctions are the latest feeble and desperate attempt to slow the Russia progress.

    , @anonlb
    @AP


    Wishful thinking. It would simply bring destruction, resistance, more destruction, and hatred. As anywhere else under similar circumstances.
     
    My 2c: this will be destruction only, and only is possible as part of far bigger world burification. As romans before, they will make desert of bigger part of Europe and call this victory.
    , @Maïkl Makfaïl
    @AP

    If.

    At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It’s not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes.



    ===> An estimation coming out straight out of your ass and a prediction based on absolutely nothing, of course, except your rage against Russia.


    That’s not going to draw everyone into its orbit.

    ===>The funniest thing is that even if Russia only manages to achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity it would still mean a GDP larger than Japan's since Italian pc gdp and Japanese are the same. And Russia has already a more vibrant IT tech scene than all the rusty European countries which will matter more than anything else in the 21st century and a GDP bigger than Germany . And Ukraine is still pretty much into Russia's orbit from an economic point of view , despite hundreds of sanctions , Russia is still Ukraine number 1 investor and trade partner.



    By the end of 2013 Russia the gap in terms of wealth between Ukraine and Russia was the greatest it had ever been. And yet Ukraine turned away from Russia. Since Maidan, Ukraine has already started to narrow the gap with Russia. By early 2020 it had turned the clock back to 2011 in terms of per capita GDP PPP discrepancy between the two countries.


    ===> Ukraine narrowing the gap with Russia since Maidan ? 🤣🤣🤣 With what ? Its gdp falling almost without interruption , almost totally destroyed industry or its Gabon's levels of labour productivity ? Its not the Russians that are fleeing their country to Ukraine but the other way around.





    When was this? Most recent poll by KIIS was in February 2020:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=927&page=5

    Pretty stable 51% for, 26% against, rest don’t care. So if this were a referendum EU wins 66.5% to 35.5%. EU wins in the West, Center and South and only loses in the East of the country.

    Support for NATO at 44%, an increase from 40% in February 2019 though not as high as 48% when the war in the East was hotter. Opposition to NATO at 31% so NATO would win a referendum. Regionally, NATO wins in the West and Center but loses in the South and East.



    ==> https://www.courrierinternational.com/article/geopolitique-les-raisons-du-desamour-croissant-des-ukrainiens-envers-loccident Ukraine starting to realize it has no place in the West will only reinforce the pro Russia trends.


    Wishful thinking. It would simply bring destruction, resistance, more destruction, and hatred. As anywhere else under similar circumstances.

    ===> The destruction of banderist cucks and terrorists is long overdue indeed. We can do with the hate of some iodine-deficient yokels from the west of the country . As for their capacity of "resistance", we have already seen that when we crushed banderists in no time at the end of WW II and forced them to crawl to Cacada , screaming and squealing . Ukrainian nationalists never knew how to fight. Even their nazi idols were laughing their untermensch performance.

    Replies: @AP

  43. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Byelorussians and Ukrainians converging closer together than either nationality to the Great Russian one, is probably more accurate overall.
     
    The native cultures are closer to each other than either is to Russian. However for various reasons Belarusians have "Russified" to a large extent, so this similarity is irrelevant. It just means that long ago there was "raw material" with which some sort of Ukrainian-Belarussian union could have been constructed (or Belarussians could have been fused with Ukrainians) but the time for that passed many generations ago. IIRC Khmelytsky was struggling with Moscow over control of Belarus but failed to secure it under his authority. That probably would have been the chance:

    http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?AddButton=pages%5CK%5CH%5CKhmelnytskyBohdan.htm

    The issue of the legitimate historical boundaries of the Cossack state brought the Belarusian question to the forefront of Ukrainian politics. The Zaporozhian Cossacks were interested in Belarus as early as the 16th century, as is evident from Hryhorii Loboda's and Severyn Nalyvaiko's campaigns. Khmelnytsky paid close attention to Belarus from the very beginning of his uprising. He supported the Cossack movement led by Konstantin Paklonski in eastern Belarus. A Belarusian regiment under the control of the Zaporozhian Host existed in 1655–7. In 1656 Khmelnytsky took under his protection Slutsk principality, which belonged to Prince B. Radziwiłł, then in 1657 Staryi Bykhau, granting it the right to free trade with Ukraine, and finally, on 8 July 1657, at the request of the Pynsk nobility, Pynsk, Mozyr, and Turiv counties. These actions greatly disturbed Muscovy, which began, in Viacheslav Lypynsky's words, ‘the struggle of two Rus’es over the third Rus’.’ Although Khmelnytsky's death put an end to Ukraine's expansion into Belarusian territory, the tradition of a ‘Rus’ state’ was preserved in the policies of Ivan Vyhovsky, and traces of it can be found even later.

    Prince and and Grand Hetman of Lithuania, Konstnaty Ostrogki, the victor of scores of significant battles, the founder and beneficial, the founder and benefactor of the Ostrog Academy that is still a viable institution of learning to this day.
     
    He was indeed a great man and figure who would be worthy of building a national narrative around. However he was a steadfast patriot of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and thus of no use for Ukrainian natonalists, who have plenty of other people such as Mazepa, Khmelnytsky, etc. They venerate the PLC patriot Sahaidachny of course, but that may be because he is the only significant Galician of the Cossack era and because he played a large role in organizing the institutions of the nascent Cossack state.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    He was indeed a great man and figure who would be worthy of building a national narrative around. However he was a steadfast patriot of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and thus of no use for Ukrainian natonalists

    I’m not quite sure how you’ve come to this conclusion, but by the volume of books written about the man and his family (mostly histories but also some popular novels too) and his cause and its meaning within the context of Ukrainian statehood, I would come to an opposite conclusion. Also, his name is revered, as could be expected, by his admirers among young students and graduates of the Ostrog Academy, that figure to play large roles as future Ukrainian leaders. That he fought under a PLC flag, he always upheld the honer of his own ethnicity (he probably actually fought under his own family crest). His importance for Ukraine has not been lost, thankfully, by Ukraine’s bureaucratic and governmental policymakers:

  44. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4


    Anyone who wishes well to Eastern Slavs should work towards transforming their regional nationalisms into a common Eastern Slav (Rus/Ruthenian) nationalism. The final aim being rebuilding a New Rus/Ruthenian confederation between Lvov and Vladivostok. Even if it takes 2-3 generations it is still a worthy choice compared to degradation and depopulation trends we witness today.
     
    This vision is perhaps laudable, but not very realistic. History moves forward and not backwards, and it's highly unlikely that even within 3 generations it would be achievable (but who knows?). Personally, being an observer on the sidelines, I too can see many benefits of a closer cooperation between the three East Slavic neighbors. Unfortunately, at least in Ukraine's example, there is nothing at all that points to a union of any sort where Ukrainian language and cultural rights would be respected and supported. It's always been, and I'm sorry to say, will always be that within any union of this sort the ever present oppressive nature of Russification will raise its ugly head. Even during Yanukovych's term, his man Tabachnyk, the head of Educational and Cultural affairs, would have Ukrainian textbooks screened for "political correctness" by censors in Moscow. Face it, Russian political and cultural leaders have never really been able to stomach Ukrainian cultural aspirations (it's really too bad). Even our fearless leader here, Karlin, seems to proudly display books favorably disposed to the black Hundreds movement, on his personal bookshelve.
    Just for information? :-)

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mikhail

    There is no need for cultural homogenization. Let a hundred flowers bloom. Maybe people should learn the three Eastern Slav languages in order to understand each other. Better still, use Church Slavonic updated for modern scientific and technical purposes as a tool for communication between different Rus/Ruthenian branches. Zionists did it for Hebrew, which was mainly a liturgical language, and it worked miracles.

    Besides, the most important thing is increasing industrial activity and natural resources transformation to benefit all local populations and significantly increase birth rates. The project should be first and foremost a means towards the preservation of the Eastern Slavs populations and a rational long-term economic use of their common territory. Also it should absolutely include industrial and scientific development, including technology upgrades, especially the potentially disruptive ones.

    Political coordination should be increased, but not to a point of outright integration and cultural integration should be avoided. Despite what most people think culture and language are secondary. The Helvetic confederation should be the example to follow. Including the strong regional direct democracy aspect.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4


    Besides, the most important thing is increasing industrial activity and natural resources transformation to benefit all local populations and significantly increase birth rates.
     
    You're quite a spiritual human being, therefore, I'm a little bit surprised that you don't seem to be familiar with the words of the Master himself:

    Man does not live by bread alone.
     

    Replies: @Ano4

  45. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4


    Anyone who wishes well to Eastern Slavs should work towards transforming their regional nationalisms into a common Eastern Slav (Rus/Ruthenian) nationalism. The final aim being rebuilding a New Rus/Ruthenian confederation between Lvov and Vladivostok. Even if it takes 2-3 generations it is still a worthy choice compared to degradation and depopulation trends we witness today.
     
    This vision is perhaps laudable, but not very realistic. History moves forward and not backwards, and it's highly unlikely that even within 3 generations it would be achievable (but who knows?). Personally, being an observer on the sidelines, I too can see many benefits of a closer cooperation between the three East Slavic neighbors. Unfortunately, at least in Ukraine's example, there is nothing at all that points to a union of any sort where Ukrainian language and cultural rights would be respected and supported. It's always been, and I'm sorry to say, will always be that within any union of this sort the ever present oppressive nature of Russification will raise its ugly head. Even during Yanukovych's term, his man Tabachnyk, the head of Educational and Cultural affairs, would have Ukrainian textbooks screened for "political correctness" by censors in Moscow. Face it, Russian political and cultural leaders have never really been able to stomach Ukrainian cultural aspirations (it's really too bad). Even our fearless leader here, Karlin, seems to proudly display books favorably disposed to the black Hundreds movement, on his personal bookshelve.
    Just for information? :-)

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mikhail

    Unfortunately, at least in Ukraine’s example, there is nothing at all that points to a union of any sort where Ukrainian language and cultural rights would be respected and supported. It’s always been, and I’m sorry to say, will always be that within any union of this sort the ever present oppressive nature of Russification will raise its ugly head. Even during Yanukovych’s term, his man Tabachnyk, the head of Educational and Cultural affairs, would have Ukrainian textbooks screened for “political correctness” by censors in Moscow. Face it, Russian political and cultural leaders have never really been able to stomach Ukrainian cultural aspirations (it’s really too bad).

    Not true as acknowledged by Subtelny. Post-1800s, the Russian Whites expressed and showed the willingness to respect the Ukrainian language. Its faults aside, the USSR didn’t suppress Ukrainian identity as much as making sure it conformed with a certain guideline – something done with other Soviet based ethnic groups – Russians included.

    Regarding Tabachnyk, post-Soviet and pre-Yanukovych as well as post-Yanukovych, there has been the reverse situation of people not respecting pro-Russian Ukraine based sentiment.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    It's too bad that the Whites lost, and those with more Ukrainaphobic sentiments have taken their place.

  46. @Maïkl Makfaïl
    @AP


    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn’t simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.
     
    Agree. And if Russia manages to unleash economic growth, Russian still being the number 1 démography and army in Europe, all Eastern Europe and Scandinavia would eventually fall into Russian orbit ( except Poland of course ) by the simple strength of commerce , and then the whole Europe would be dominated by this new Russian empire and its slavic masses . By dominating and integrating the different parts of Europe one after another Russia can compensate for its relative shortage of population . Russia is the only country that has the potential to be the center of gravity of the Eurasian contient. Germany will be a declining of country in the future.

    Of course, in Ukraine’s case union simply isn’t feasible, at least not in the foreseeable future. Post 2014 actions have solidified this. An invasion would just make things worse; there would be a cycle of insurrection and repression, and Kiev would achieve 1940s Galician levels of Russia-hatred.
     
    I wouldnt be so categorical . According to polls the support for EU integration in Ukraine has already fallen to 42 % from over 60 % several months ago. And a Russian invasion would be a massive demonstration of force , would bring to an end Kievs anti Russian propaganda and would open economic perspectives for Ukrainians => would be met with enthusiasm.

    Replies: @Derer, @AP, @Philip Owen

    Russia’s slide into autarky is destroying its chances of becoming an economic power. Subsidizing every firm that makes a case for import substitution is a massive drain on capital. The state has been captured by producer interests like the UK in the 1950’s and 60’s. Consumers matter more in the end.

  47. @AP

    The Russian nationalist obsession with Ukraine and Belarus strikes me as insecurity and pettiness,
     
    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn't simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.

    Of course, in Ukraine's case union simply isn't feasible, at least not in the foreseeable future. Post 2014 actions have solidified this. An invasion would just make things worse; there would be a cycle of insurrection and repression, and Kiev would achieve 1940s Galician levels of Russia-hatred.

    it would be like Germans refusing to recognise Dutch as a separate people and nation.
     
    Correct.

    Replies: @Maïkl Makfaïl, @Mr. XYZ, @AnonFromTN, @Anatoly Karlin

    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn’t simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.

    Radical idea, but maybe if Russians want great power status for their country they can simply have more babies? I mean, even with its current borders and population, there is nothing that would, in theory, prevent Russians from having larger families and thus causing their population to increase naturally. Israel manages to do it even right now in spite of both being overpopulated and being a developed country, after all. Why, why exactly can’t Russia do the same thing considering that it has much more Lebensraum than Israel has?

    By the way, considering that many Muslim countries are not exactly pleasant places, I really don’t want to see the elimination of one of the few Muslim countries (specifically Kazakhstan) that are actually pretty decent. I mean, other than the Central Asian countries, Turkey, and perhaps Bosnia, I’m unsure that there are any Muslim countries that I would be particularly eager to visit. Maybe Malaysia and Indonesia? I’m not sure. But anyway, a lot of Muslim countries are dumps (either economically or in terms of political attitudes) and thus Kazakhstan needs to maintain its independence in order to serve as a positive inspiration for these other Muslim countries to reform and to clean up their act.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Mr. XYZ


    But anyway, a lot of Muslim countries are dumps (either economically or in terms of political attitudes) and thus Kazakhstan needs to maintain its independence in order to serve as a positive inspiration for these other Muslim countries to reform and to clean up their act.
     
    How is this supposed to work? In terms of exports Kazakhstan is like a poor man's Australia and politically it is a stability-focused Sovok secular autocracy.

    Which is not the worst thing to be considering their national characteristics, but I doubt that Kazakhstan will inspire more converts to "cleaning up their act" than the graveyard of other secular resource-dependent dictatorships that used to rule far more prominent Muslim nations.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    , @reiner Tor
    @Mr. XYZ

    I would add that if Russians will be unable to reproduce, then they are not going to be a great power anyway.

  48. @AP
    @Maïkl Makfaïl


    Agree . And if Russia manages to unleash economic growth, Russian still being the number 1 démography and army in Europe
     
    If.

    At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It's not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes. That's not going to draw everyone into its orbit.

    By the end of 2013 Russia the gap in terms of wealth between Ukraine and Russia was the greatest it had ever been. And yet Ukraine turned away from Russia. Since Maidan, Ukraine has already started to narrow the gap with Russia. By early 2020 it had turned the clock back to 2011 in terms of per capita GDP PPP discrepancy between the two countries.


    According to polls the support for EU integration in Ukraine has already fallen to 42 % from over 60 % several months ago.
     
    When was this? Most recent poll by KIIS was in February 2020:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=927&page=5

    Pretty stable 51% for, 26% against, rest don't care. So if this were a referendum EU wins 66.5% to 35.5%. EU wins in the West, Center and South and only loses in the East of the country.

    Support for NATO at 44%, an increase from 40% in February 2019 though not as high as 48% when the war in the East was hotter. Opposition to NATO at 31% so NATO would win a referendum. Regionally, NATO wins in the West and Center but loses in the South and East.


    And a Russian invasion would be a massive demonstration of force , would bring to an end Kievs anti Russian propaganda and would open economic perspectives for Ukrainians => would be met with enthusiasm.
     
    Wishful thinking. It would simply bring destruction, resistance, more destruction, and hatred. As anywhere else under similar circumstances.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Derer, @anonlb, @Maïkl Makfaïl

    At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It’s not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes. That’s not going to draw everyone into its orbit.

    Well, Italian or perhaps French levels of GDP ppp per capita.

    Anyway, though, as I’ve previously said, if Russia wants more people, there’s an easy way to make them–just get Russians to have more babies–and so do in a non-dysgenic way!

    • Replies: @Miro23
    @Mr. XYZ


    Well, Italian or perhaps French levels of GDP ppp per capita.
     
    They can do much better than that. PISA test results are the best predicator of future economic advancement and they can easily out-distance Italy and France in these test results.

    Replies: @AP

  49. Very good piece. Not controversial enough to generate a storm of comments. Moderation and accuracy rarely do. Extremism sells.

  50. Even so, unlike the case with many Ukrainians, the vast majority of Belorussians do still hold to the Soviet ideal of Slavic brotherhood, with large majorities supporting both the official status of the Russian language, and economic integration with Russia (though this sentiment stops short of wishing to fully merge into Russia, which only enjoys ~15% support). Russian language usage is near universal, including in rural areas – despite some limited Belarusization efforts since 2014.

    An excellent article. So it is possible to deal respectfully with Belarus as an equal partner.

  51. Interesting article, Anatoly! That said, though, please allow me to make a few points here:

    In 2013, on the eve of Euromaidan in Ukraine, even among 18-25 year-olds in the Donbass, the Eurasian Economic Union only beat out the European Union by a 38%-29% margin (with the rest of the Donbass youth apparently being undecided):

    https://pollotenchegg.livejournal.com/2013/11/01/

    https://akarlin.com/2013/11/ukraines-turn-to-the-east/

    “No, they are not, but its worth pointing out that Donetsk 18-25 year olds (from one of the most pro-Russian areas) support Customs Union accession (38% vs. 29%) to about the same extent as the average Ukrainian (40% vs. 33%). This is a H-U-G-E generational split you have there in the east, with support for Eurasian integration being almost unanimous among the elderly in Donetsk.”

    This shows that even in the Donbass, there was a huge generational shift on this issue pre-Euromaidan and that Donbass youth were much more open to European Union membership than their elders were (who were almost unanimously in favor of Eurasian Economic Union membership).

    Also, interestingly enough, this specific polling in regards to Belarusian integration with the European Union versus Belarusian integration with Russia shows different data from what you have in your article above:

    https://belarusdigest.com/story/do-belarusians-want-to-join-the-eu/

    06`06 12`07 12`08 12`09 12`10 03`11 12`11 03`12 09`12 03`13
    Joining the EU 29,3 33,3 30,1 42,1 38 50,5 42 37,3 44,1 42,1
    Integration with Russia 56,5 47,5 46 42,3 38,1 31,5 41,5 47 36,2 37,2
    Data provided by the IISEPS

    ———————————————————————————————————————

    I don’t really have much else to challenge in the rest of your article. I do find it interesting that, among all of the Ukrainian regions, Novorossiya (including Crimea) achieved the highest literacy % (sometimes over 50%) under Tsarist rule according to Keith Darden’s data and was still the most pro-Russian region of Ukraine even in the 21st century. Of course, Novorossiya (and especially, but not only, Crimea) also had a higher ethnic Russian percentage than the rest of Ukraine had in both the 19th and the 21st centuries, so this could also explain the greater amount of historical Russophilia there–as in, the idea that being surrounded by Russians makes Ukrainians themselves more pro-Russian.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Mr. XYZ

    All I can say is that it fluctuates a great deal with the economic situation, with Luka's popularity, with the poll used, with the tenor of coverage on TV. In general, the Eurasian Union has polled consistently better than the EU, there seems to be a weak general trend in favor of the EU over time, but it's hard to disentangle due to the fluctuations. Another important point ofc is that EU is not actually on the table, it's a largely hypothetical choice.

    I am familiar with that Donbass poll, AP has brought it up a lot over the years. Young people throughout the ex-USSR tend to be more liberal and pro-Western (the two often go together) with age, to what extent that will hold as they age is another question.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  52. @utu
    @Belarusian Dude

    Lithuaninization? - I remember reading that it was the other way around. Lithuanian colonizers/conquerors got Ruthenized or should I say Belorusianized. Lithuanians quickly adopted local languages and no correspondence in state and business matters was conducted in Lithuanian. The mythology constructed by modern Lithuanian nationalists in 19s and 20s centuries on which they based Lithuanian nationhood is just a fancy construction. Though they were more successful than Belorusians in this construction of nationhood because their language was significantly distinct from Polish, Ruthenian and Russian while Belorussians constituted a fuzzy set, a mishmash of languages.

    Replies: @Belarusian Dude

    Either I am not understanding you or you are not understanding me. When I mentioned Lithuanization I just used it as a shorthand to address the topic of our patron discussing why Belarus failed to take on so many cultural traits of Lithuania, as opposed to the more pronounced cultural osmosis from PL->UA

  53. @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack


    Unfortunately, at least in Ukraine’s example, there is nothing at all that points to a union of any sort where Ukrainian language and cultural rights would be respected and supported. It’s always been, and I’m sorry to say, will always be that within any union of this sort the ever present oppressive nature of Russification will raise its ugly head. Even during Yanukovych’s term, his man Tabachnyk, the head of Educational and Cultural affairs, would have Ukrainian textbooks screened for “political correctness” by censors in Moscow. Face it, Russian political and cultural leaders have never really been able to stomach Ukrainian cultural aspirations (it’s really too bad).
     
    Not true as acknowledged by Subtelny. Post-1800s, the Russian Whites expressed and showed the willingness to respect the Ukrainian language. Its faults aside, the USSR didn't suppress Ukrainian identity as much as making sure it conformed with a certain guideline - something done with other Soviet based ethnic groups - Russians included.

    Regarding Tabachnyk, post-Soviet and pre-Yanukovych as well as post-Yanukovych, there has been the reverse situation of people not respecting pro-Russian Ukraine based sentiment.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    It’s too bad that the Whites lost, and those with more Ukrainaphobic sentiments have taken their place.

  54. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    There is no need for cultural homogenization. Let a hundred flowers bloom. Maybe people should learn the three Eastern Slav languages in order to understand each other. Better still, use Church Slavonic updated for modern scientific and technical purposes as a tool for communication between different Rus/Ruthenian branches. Zionists did it for Hebrew, which was mainly a liturgical language, and it worked miracles.

    Besides, the most important thing is increasing industrial activity and natural resources transformation to benefit all local populations and significantly increase birth rates. The project should be first and foremost a means towards the preservation of the Eastern Slavs populations and a rational long-term economic use of their common territory. Also it should absolutely include industrial and scientific development, including technology upgrades, especially the potentially disruptive ones.

    Political coordination should be increased, but not to a point of outright integration and cultural integration should be avoided. Despite what most people think culture and language are secondary. The Helvetic confederation should be the example to follow. Including the strong regional direct democracy aspect.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Besides, the most important thing is increasing industrial activity and natural resources transformation to benefit all local populations and significantly increase birth rates.

    You’re quite a spiritual human being, therefore, I’m a little bit surprised that you don’t seem to be familiar with the words of the Master himself:

    Man does not live by bread alone.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    I agree and concur. But despite being spiritual we all live in a material world. And it is better for all parties involved if people are comfortable on a material level, it lowers stress and aggression and promotes peace and containment. I actually have a great respect for Protestant work ethic, which is quite similar to the one that has been also developed by the Old Believers that have unfortunately been put down and oppressed after the Raskol. Everywhere they settled these strongly religious, but also strongly hardworking people succeeded against all odds. They are one of the many examples showing how a community can maintain a strong spiritual tradition, but at the same time successfully build a comfortable life for its members.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  55. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4


    Besides, the most important thing is increasing industrial activity and natural resources transformation to benefit all local populations and significantly increase birth rates.
     
    You're quite a spiritual human being, therefore, I'm a little bit surprised that you don't seem to be familiar with the words of the Master himself:

    Man does not live by bread alone.
     

    Replies: @Ano4

    I agree and concur. But despite being spiritual we all live in a material world. And it is better for all parties involved if people are comfortable on a material level, it lowers stress and aggression and promotes peace and containment. I actually have a great respect for Protestant work ethic, which is quite similar to the one that has been also developed by the Old Believers that have unfortunately been put down and oppressed after the Raskol. Everywhere they settled these strongly religious, but also strongly hardworking people succeeded against all odds. They are one of the many examples showing how a community can maintain a strong spiritual tradition, but at the same time successfully build a comfortable life for its members.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    Your opinions are reasonable and present a vision of Russian/Ukrainian/Belorusian unity based on reason and understanding, that needs to be heard. Unfortunately, it's not one that reflects the moods and actions of leaders in all three states. The greatest transgressor of this stability was to be found within Putin's Russia, when it decided to get intrinsically involved in Ukraine's affairs, and decided to send in hostile military troops that eventually translated into war and conquest. To expect the transgressed to make any real gestures of peace and reconciliation is rarely seen throughout history. Even God himself had to punish Abel for his transgressions, unable to come up with any other remedy than separation and banishment.

    Replies: @Ano4

  56. @Mr. XYZ
    @AP


    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn’t simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.
     
    Radical idea, but maybe if Russians want great power status for their country they can simply have more babies? I mean, even with its current borders and population, there is nothing that would, in theory, prevent Russians from having larger families and thus causing their population to increase naturally. Israel manages to do it even right now in spite of both being overpopulated and being a developed country, after all. Why, why exactly can't Russia do the same thing considering that it has much more Lebensraum than Israel has?

    By the way, considering that many Muslim countries are not exactly pleasant places, I really don't want to see the elimination of one of the few Muslim countries (specifically Kazakhstan) that are actually pretty decent. I mean, other than the Central Asian countries, Turkey, and perhaps Bosnia, I'm unsure that there are any Muslim countries that I would be particularly eager to visit. Maybe Malaysia and Indonesia? I'm not sure. But anyway, a lot of Muslim countries are dumps (either economically or in terms of political attitudes) and thus Kazakhstan needs to maintain its independence in order to serve as a positive inspiration for these other Muslim countries to reform and to clean up their act.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @reiner Tor

    But anyway, a lot of Muslim countries are dumps (either economically or in terms of political attitudes) and thus Kazakhstan needs to maintain its independence in order to serve as a positive inspiration for these other Muslim countries to reform and to clean up their act.

    How is this supposed to work? In terms of exports Kazakhstan is like a poor man’s Australia and politically it is a stability-focused Sovok secular autocracy.

    Which is not the worst thing to be considering their national characteristics, but I doubt that Kazakhstan will inspire more converts to “cleaning up their act” than the graveyard of other secular resource-dependent dictatorships that used to rule far more prominent Muslim nations.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @Hyperborean

    So, other than natural resources, Kazakhstan doesn't actually export anything?

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  57. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    I agree and concur. But despite being spiritual we all live in a material world. And it is better for all parties involved if people are comfortable on a material level, it lowers stress and aggression and promotes peace and containment. I actually have a great respect for Protestant work ethic, which is quite similar to the one that has been also developed by the Old Believers that have unfortunately been put down and oppressed after the Raskol. Everywhere they settled these strongly religious, but also strongly hardworking people succeeded against all odds. They are one of the many examples showing how a community can maintain a strong spiritual tradition, but at the same time successfully build a comfortable life for its members.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Your opinions are reasonable and present a vision of Russian/Ukrainian/Belorusian unity based on reason and understanding, that needs to be heard. Unfortunately, it’s not one that reflects the moods and actions of leaders in all three states. The greatest transgressor of this stability was to be found within Putin’s Russia, when it decided to get intrinsically involved in Ukraine’s affairs, and decided to send in hostile military troops that eventually translated into war and conquest. To expect the transgressed to make any real gestures of peace and reconciliation is rarely seen throughout history. Even God himself had to punish Abel for his transgressions, unable to come up with any other remedy than separation and banishment.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    In ancient Rus times, princes fought and raided each other despite them being a family. In Muscovy, Moscow and Tver fought each other ferociously. So even the closest of kin have their moments of aggression and strife.

    Being myself a peaceful person, I hope that peace will prevail and all current problems will be left behind. I acknowledge these problems, I know that errors have been made that lead to loss of lives of innocent people. But I hope that solutions will be found and peace will return among the Eastern Slavs.

    I often like to repeat the Dhammapada:



    3. "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,"--in those who harbour such thoughts hatred will never cease.

    4. "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,"--in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred will cease.

    5. For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

     

    This World is a hard place, suffering here is immense; one has to do his best to decrease suffering and increase happiness.
  58. @Mr. XYZ
    @AP


    At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It’s not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes. That’s not going to draw everyone into its orbit.
     
    Well, Italian or perhaps French levels of GDP ppp per capita.

    Anyway, though, as I've previously said, if Russia wants more people, there's an easy way to make them--just get Russians to have more babies--and so do in a non-dysgenic way!

    Replies: @Miro23

    Well, Italian or perhaps French levels of GDP ppp per capita.

    They can do much better than that. PISA test results are the best predicator of future economic advancement and they can easily out-distance Italy and France in these test results.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Miro23

    Russians may be smarter than Italians but they may also be even more culturally prone to corruption. Overall I'd expect an eventual Mediterranean-industrialized (so more like Italy than Portugal) level of development and prosperity from Russia. The Slavs with the highest chance of eventually achieving German or Swedish levels would be Czechs and Poles.

    Replies: @justiana, @Anatoly Karlin, @Blinky Bill

  59. @AP
    @Maïkl Makfaïl


    Agree . And if Russia manages to unleash economic growth, Russian still being the number 1 démography and army in Europe
     
    If.

    At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It's not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes. That's not going to draw everyone into its orbit.

    By the end of 2013 Russia the gap in terms of wealth between Ukraine and Russia was the greatest it had ever been. And yet Ukraine turned away from Russia. Since Maidan, Ukraine has already started to narrow the gap with Russia. By early 2020 it had turned the clock back to 2011 in terms of per capita GDP PPP discrepancy between the two countries.


    According to polls the support for EU integration in Ukraine has already fallen to 42 % from over 60 % several months ago.
     
    When was this? Most recent poll by KIIS was in February 2020:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=927&page=5

    Pretty stable 51% for, 26% against, rest don't care. So if this were a referendum EU wins 66.5% to 35.5%. EU wins in the West, Center and South and only loses in the East of the country.

    Support for NATO at 44%, an increase from 40% in February 2019 though not as high as 48% when the war in the East was hotter. Opposition to NATO at 31% so NATO would win a referendum. Regionally, NATO wins in the West and Center but loses in the South and East.


    And a Russian invasion would be a massive demonstration of force , would bring to an end Kievs anti Russian propaganda and would open economic perspectives for Ukrainians => would be met with enthusiasm.
     
    Wishful thinking. It would simply bring destruction, resistance, more destruction, and hatred. As anywhere else under similar circumstances.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Derer, @anonlb, @Maïkl Makfaïl

    Russia is the richest and largest country in the world…that is the biggest envy and thorn in the eye of the US ruling clique (I presume you have rudimentary intelligence to know that I am not referring to puppet Trump or Biden). A sinister clique that has been long decoded in the mind of Russian people; the same clique that has fading grip on Poland and Ukraine. Sanctions are the latest feeble and desperate attempt to slow the Russia progress.

  60. AP says:
    @Miro23
    @Mr. XYZ


    Well, Italian or perhaps French levels of GDP ppp per capita.
     
    They can do much better than that. PISA test results are the best predicator of future economic advancement and they can easily out-distance Italy and France in these test results.

    Replies: @AP

    Russians may be smarter than Italians but they may also be even more culturally prone to corruption. Overall I’d expect an eventual Mediterranean-industrialized (so more like Italy than Portugal) level of development and prosperity from Russia. The Slavs with the highest chance of eventually achieving German or Swedish levels would be Czechs and Poles.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @justiana
    @AP

    No way. There is no economic elite over here. Everything is owned and bend to Germany. And Germans do not want to have another competition. See Italians and how their export collapsed once they introduce EURO.
    Poland and Czech have their maximum at 65-70% of Germany. I am not complaining. It is reality.

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    Also, while there are probably no major Russian groups as dull as South Italians, there are likewise no major Russian groups that are as bright as North Italians, who are not far off from the Swiss and South Germans - especially once one subtracts the latter's immigrants.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @RadicalCenter

    , @Blinky Bill
    @AP


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQAbGWPZHZJoi2t4wMaEhHFB8Cd8931koqKIQ&usqp.jpg
    😂😂😂😂

  61. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    Your opinions are reasonable and present a vision of Russian/Ukrainian/Belorusian unity based on reason and understanding, that needs to be heard. Unfortunately, it's not one that reflects the moods and actions of leaders in all three states. The greatest transgressor of this stability was to be found within Putin's Russia, when it decided to get intrinsically involved in Ukraine's affairs, and decided to send in hostile military troops that eventually translated into war and conquest. To expect the transgressed to make any real gestures of peace and reconciliation is rarely seen throughout history. Even God himself had to punish Abel for his transgressions, unable to come up with any other remedy than separation and banishment.

    Replies: @Ano4

    In ancient Rus times, princes fought and raided each other despite them being a family. In Muscovy, Moscow and Tver fought each other ferociously. So even the closest of kin have their moments of aggression and strife.

    Being myself a peaceful person, I hope that peace will prevail and all current problems will be left behind. I acknowledge these problems, I know that errors have been made that lead to loss of lives of innocent people. But I hope that solutions will be found and peace will return among the Eastern Slavs.

    I often like to repeat the Dhammapada:

    3. “He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,”–in those who harbour such thoughts hatred will never cease.

    4. “He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,”–in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred will cease.

    5. For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

    This World is a hard place, suffering here is immense; one has to do his best to decrease suffering and increase happiness.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  62. @AP

    The Russian nationalist obsession with Ukraine and Belarus strikes me as insecurity and pettiness,
     
    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn't simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.

    Of course, in Ukraine's case union simply isn't feasible, at least not in the foreseeable future. Post 2014 actions have solidified this. An invasion would just make things worse; there would be a cycle of insurrection and repression, and Kiev would achieve 1940s Galician levels of Russia-hatred.

    it would be like Germans refusing to recognise Dutch as a separate people and nation.
     
    Correct.

    Replies: @Maïkl Makfaïl, @Mr. XYZ, @AnonFromTN, @Anatoly Karlin

    Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free

    This applies only to civilized city Kazakhs. Uneducated semi-illiterate village Kazakhs (those that breed the fastest) are their equivalent of “svidomy” and “zmagars”.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    Uneducated semi-illiterate village Kazakhs (those that breed the fastest) are their equivalent of “svidomy” and “zmagars”.
     
    I don't know about zmagars but in Ukraine the most "svidomy parts" (Galicia and Kiev) are also the most highly educated. The least educated parts of Ukraine are in Transcarpathia and Volyn. They are less nationalistic than Galicia.

    I haven't heard of Kazakhs of any kind causing trouble but I could be wrong. Central Asians in general tend to be less troublesome than Caucasians but among Central Asians one hears more negative things about Uzbeks or Tadjiks than about Kazakhs.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  63. @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free
     
    This applies only to civilized city Kazakhs. Uneducated semi-illiterate village Kazakhs (those that breed the fastest) are their equivalent of “svidomy” and “zmagars”.

    Replies: @AP

    Uneducated semi-illiterate village Kazakhs (those that breed the fastest) are their equivalent of “svidomy” and “zmagars”.

    I don’t know about zmagars but in Ukraine the most “svidomy parts” (Galicia and Kiev) are also the most highly educated. The least educated parts of Ukraine are in Transcarpathia and Volyn. They are less nationalistic than Galicia.

    I haven’t heard of Kazakhs of any kind causing trouble but I could be wrong. Central Asians in general tend to be less troublesome than Caucasians but among Central Asians one hears more negative things about Uzbeks or Tadjiks than about Kazakhs.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    in Ukraine the most “svidomy parts” (Galicia and Kiev) are also the most highly educated.
     
    If you ask people who were born and raised in Kiev, they say the opposite: the most svydomy are uncouth newcomer villagers from Western Ukraine, who they despise.

    Central Asians in general tend to be less troublesome than Caucasians
     
    Of course, Central Asians are less troublesome than many North Caucasians. They developed to the level of feudal society under their own power, whereas many North Caucasian people have essentially primeval tribal mentality. Remember, Alexander the Great conquered many nations but failed to conquer several primeval tribes in Central Asia at the time. Primeval people cannot be conquered, they can only be exterminated. That’s the reason for the different fate of North and South American Indians.

    Replies: @AP, @RadicalCenter

  64. @AP
    @Miro23

    Russians may be smarter than Italians but they may also be even more culturally prone to corruption. Overall I'd expect an eventual Mediterranean-industrialized (so more like Italy than Portugal) level of development and prosperity from Russia. The Slavs with the highest chance of eventually achieving German or Swedish levels would be Czechs and Poles.

    Replies: @justiana, @Anatoly Karlin, @Blinky Bill

    No way. There is no economic elite over here. Everything is owned and bend to Germany. And Germans do not want to have another competition. See Italians and how their export collapsed once they introduce EURO.
    Poland and Czech have their maximum at 65-70% of Germany. I am not complaining. It is reality.

  65. @AP
    @Peter Akuleyev

    True, however as AK points out in this article the rest of Ukraine that is not Donbas, while not as anti-Russian or nationalistic as Galicia, is still much more so than is Donbas/Belarus. And this was true even before the Galician "poison pill" was added. Petliura, Mazepa, Vyhovsky were not Galicians. Ukrainians from the Russian Empire were voting for nationalistic parties in 1917 without being in the same country as Galicia.

    http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CA%5CL%5CAll6RussianConstituentAssembly.htm

    Out of 36,260,000 votes cast throughout the territory of the former Russian Empire the Russian Socialist Revolutionaries (SRs) received 45.5 percent; the Bolsheviks, 24.9 percent; the Ukrainian Party of Socialist Revolutionaries, 9.5 percent; the Constitutional Democratic (kadet) party, 5.1 percent; the Russian Social Democratic Workers' party (Mensheviks), 1.8 percent; the Ukrainian Socialists (the name used at the front by the Ukrainian Socialist Revolutionaries and Social Democrats), 1.4 percent; and the Ukrainian Social Democratic Workers' party, 0.26 percent. In Ukraine the 7,580,000 votes cast were divided in the following way: the national groups (non-Russian parties) won 61.5 percent (among them the Ukrainian SRs won 45.3 percent); the Russian SRs, 24.8 percent; the Bolsheviks, 10 percent; and the Kadets, 3.7 percent. Of the 120 deputies elected in Ukraine, 71 were Ukrainian SRs, 2 were Ukrainian Social Democrats, 4 were from the national minorities (1 Pole, 2 Jews, 1 Moslem), 30 were Russian SRs, 11 were Bolsheviks, 1 was a Kadet, and 1 was from the Union of Landowners. In six districts where the bloc of Ukrainian socialist parties (SRs, the Peasant Association, and Social Democrats) presented a single list of candidates, it won a clear majority of the votes: 77 percent in Kyiv gubernia, 71 percent in Volhynia, 60 percent in Chernihiv gubernia, 60 percent in Poltava gubernia, 52 percent in Katerynoslav gubernia, and 33 percent in Tavriia gubernia. In Kharkiv gubernia and Kherson gubernia the Ukrainian and the Russian SRs ran together; therefore the Ukrainian SRs received only 12 percent of the votes in the former and 25 percent in the latter gubernia.

    ::::::::::::

    It is false to claim that there existed a "Ukraine" in the 12th century as Ukrainian nationalists like to imagine, but there were strong rivalries between Kiev and Galician Rus (proto-Ukraine) and Suzdalian Rus (proto-Moscow) even back then. So Kiev was seized and looted by a Suzdalian prince, locals overthrew his men in Kiev. Kiev was also seized and looted by Galicians, they were the ciity's owners when the Mongols invaded. At that point (12th-13th centuries) the languages probably had not diverged enough to be separate (the Ruthenian speech in what is now Ukraine wouldn't have gotten its massive influx of Polish words yet), it was likely only a difference in accents and isolated words, but there were already likely strong regional identities and resentments, as between the American North and South. It wasn't some sort of cohesive unified nation-state as Russian nationalists like to imagine.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    I agree with most of your arguments apart from the Galicia+Kiev/proto-Ukraine and Suzdal/proto-Moscow concept. But as I said, I’ll address that in some future post.

  66. In Russia is it common to get people of Ukrainian or Belarusian descent who are more patriotic to those countries than they are to Russia, even though they are to all intents and purposes Russian?

    In England it’s very common for people of second or third generation Irish descent to be more patriotic to Ireland than England/UK, or even exclusively patriotic towards Ireland in some cases. Most of these people have never lived in Ireland and in some cases have never even been to Ireland, they are to all intents and purposes English, yet still cling to their Irish heritage, often to the point of hostility towards England. Is this sort of mentality common with Russians of Ukrainian and Belarusian descent?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Europe Europa


    In England it’s very common for people of second or third generation Irish descent to be more patriotic to Ireland than England/UK, or even exclusively patriotic towards Ireland in some cases.
     
    Works the other way around as well. Ditto for many people of Ukrainian background in Russia. There's also the matter of being positive about both identities, whether Eire-UK or Russia-Ukraine.
  67. @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    Uneducated semi-illiterate village Kazakhs (those that breed the fastest) are their equivalent of “svidomy” and “zmagars”.
     
    I don't know about zmagars but in Ukraine the most "svidomy parts" (Galicia and Kiev) are also the most highly educated. The least educated parts of Ukraine are in Transcarpathia and Volyn. They are less nationalistic than Galicia.

    I haven't heard of Kazakhs of any kind causing trouble but I could be wrong. Central Asians in general tend to be less troublesome than Caucasians but among Central Asians one hears more negative things about Uzbeks or Tadjiks than about Kazakhs.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    in Ukraine the most “svidomy parts” (Galicia and Kiev) are also the most highly educated.

    If you ask people who were born and raised in Kiev, they say the opposite: the most svydomy are uncouth newcomer villagers from Western Ukraine, who they despise.

    Central Asians in general tend to be less troublesome than Caucasians

    Of course, Central Asians are less troublesome than many North Caucasians. They developed to the level of feudal society under their own power, whereas many North Caucasian people have essentially primeval tribal mentality. Remember, Alexander the Great conquered many nations but failed to conquer several primeval tribes in Central Asia at the time. Primeval people cannot be conquered, they can only be exterminated. That’s the reason for the different fate of North and South American Indians.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    If you ask people who were born and raised in Kiev, they say the opposite: the most svydomy are uncouth newcomer villagers from Western Ukraine, who they despise.
     
    Wrong on various levels. The most nationalistic people are not western Ukrainian villagers but people from Lviv or other western cities. And to an extent Kiev. Western villagers tend to take being Ukrainian for granted and speak Ukrainian but they aren’t super politically active.

    I visit Kiev regularly; you never do. The people really despised in Kiev are Donbas people. For example there were signs in perekhods “do not piss here, this is not Donetsk.”

    Western Ukrainian villagers are seen as pleasant hobbits. Kiev attracts people from all over the country but it isn’t flooded by western Ukrainian villagers. If they leave their homes for work they go to Poland which is closer and offers much higher wages. Most Ukrainian-speaking newcomers to Kiev are from villages in neighboring oblasts like Zhytomir or Chernigov. There are also Ukrainian-speaking grandmothers from nearby villages in Kiev oblast selling fruits (in Moscow this is usually done by non-Russians like Azeris).

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @RadicalCenter
    @AnonFromTN

    Your ohservation about the futility of trying to conquer and rule or civilize primitive people is sensible. It should be applied to africans in the usa.

  68. @utu
    @Europe Europa

    Some Russian nationalists when they give up on claiming Poles or Czechs as their own touch another string, which is very similar to what Hitler wrote in his 2nd book, i.e., they play the note of greatness and destiny. That Poles and Czechs destiny is mediocrity while that of Russian is that of greatness. One can detect this note being played by some commenters here.


    https://www.unz.com/gdurocher/hitler-vs-kalergi/#comment-3705253
    If in the future our people continues living with the same political thoughtlessness as in the past, it will ultimately have to renounce the claim to international significance. It will become more and more stunted racially, until it finally deteriorates into degenerate, brutish gluttons who will not even remember the past greatness. In the context of the future international state hierarchy, it will be at most what Switzerland and Holland were in the previous Europe.
     
    I am pretty sure that Ukrainians and Belarusians just like Poles and Czechs are OK with the international insignificantly of Swiss and Dutch with the degeneracy of consumerism and good life to that of international significance that Russian nationalists can find somewhere in their phantasies and dreams.

    Russian nationalists want greatness as they want to be on par with America just like Hitler wanted to be on par with Great Britain and they are irritated with and feel contempt for Czechs and Poles just like Hitler felt contempt for Dutch and Swiss.

    Replies: @AP, @Anatoly Karlin

    This post is classic small nation cope. While hobbitdom does have its charms, there are a couple of problems with it:

    (1) There are certain achievements that are forever beyond their rich simply on account of economies on scale. E.g., Poland literally “cannot into space.”

    They also cannot be autarkic in either economics or culture (heroic counter-examples like Best Korea aside), leaving them at the mercy of vicissitudes in the world’s real top dogs.

    (2) The mask of moral superiority it pretends to also happens to be fake and gay. As soon as these small nations somehow acquire real power, they tend to become quite vicious little predators themselves.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Re: Poland cannot into space

    The answer to that is that inner space is much more interesting than
    outer space. There is little to be gained from going to the Moon or Mars,
    except militarily. Space exploration will, of course, continue because
    that’s what the military-industrial complexes around the world want.
    It’s mostly about national megalomania, and outside of low Earth orbits,
    it’s a tremendous waste of money. The moon and Mars are about as
    interesting as the Antarctic, meaning not very. Human boredom is
    also a factor. Some people, especially those in their 20s and 30s
    (i.e., highly hormonal) can’t live unless they’re in a permanent state
    of excitement. This generally goes away in our 40s, and we finally
    realize that outer space is one big bore.



    Growing disillusionment with science and technology may also make
    people much less interested in spending huge amounts of money
    on the colonization of outer space.

    But I do realize that being predatory primates, territorialism
    is built into our brains, and one of the simplest ways to become
    euphoric is to expand one’s territory. Russians were in a state
    of euphoria for 2-3 years after Putin annexed Crimea.
    However, our spiritual technology is so advanced today
    that we can easily attain euphoric states of consciousness
    without any cost. No need to go into space for that.
    Russian cosmism was developed when people knew
    next to nothing about expanded states of consciousness

    To summarize my post: today’s spiritual technology (typically involving
    meditation, contemplation, Kundalini awakening, …) is so advanced that
    we know exactly how to achieve euphoric states without any need
    to invade countries or to go into our space. It’s free of charge so there
    is no need to be wealthy either. Pursuit of wealth is a blind alley.
    There is absolutely no need for countries to be wealthy (but poverty
    is not advisable either). As I always say – seek (Buddhist/Aristotelian)
    moderation in all things

    , @Exile
    @Anatoly Karlin

    A union with Russia, tight or loose, would be a net benefit for both Belarus & Russia. There isn't one rule for every small nation/ethnicity as to popular sovereignty or union. Each of these situations has a complicated history all its own. I'm 1/2 Belarussian, grandmother from Minsk. I'd support this and the emigres I know would too. Most I know are more upset at the prospect of Poland and Ukraine being swallowed by NATO and dragging them along. They'd welcome Russian pushback on that, particularly if Vlad left them some autonomy.

    , @reiner Tor
    @Anatoly Karlin

    That’s true. Yet we still want to keep existing.

    Replies: @szopen

  69. @AP
    @Maïkl Makfaïl


    Agree . And if Russia manages to unleash economic growth, Russian still being the number 1 démography and army in Europe
     
    If.

    At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It's not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes. That's not going to draw everyone into its orbit.

    By the end of 2013 Russia the gap in terms of wealth between Ukraine and Russia was the greatest it had ever been. And yet Ukraine turned away from Russia. Since Maidan, Ukraine has already started to narrow the gap with Russia. By early 2020 it had turned the clock back to 2011 in terms of per capita GDP PPP discrepancy between the two countries.


    According to polls the support for EU integration in Ukraine has already fallen to 42 % from over 60 % several months ago.
     
    When was this? Most recent poll by KIIS was in February 2020:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=927&page=5

    Pretty stable 51% for, 26% against, rest don't care. So if this were a referendum EU wins 66.5% to 35.5%. EU wins in the West, Center and South and only loses in the East of the country.

    Support for NATO at 44%, an increase from 40% in February 2019 though not as high as 48% when the war in the East was hotter. Opposition to NATO at 31% so NATO would win a referendum. Regionally, NATO wins in the West and Center but loses in the South and East.


    And a Russian invasion would be a massive demonstration of force , would bring to an end Kievs anti Russian propaganda and would open economic perspectives for Ukrainians => would be met with enthusiasm.
     
    Wishful thinking. It would simply bring destruction, resistance, more destruction, and hatred. As anywhere else under similar circumstances.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Derer, @anonlb, @Maïkl Makfaïl

    Wishful thinking. It would simply bring destruction, resistance, more destruction, and hatred. As anywhere else under similar circumstances.

    My 2c: this will be destruction only, and only is possible as part of far bigger world burification. As romans before, they will make desert of bigger part of Europe and call this victory.

  70. @Europe Europa
    In Russia is it common to get people of Ukrainian or Belarusian descent who are more patriotic to those countries than they are to Russia, even though they are to all intents and purposes Russian?

    In England it's very common for people of second or third generation Irish descent to be more patriotic to Ireland than England/UK, or even exclusively patriotic towards Ireland in some cases. Most of these people have never lived in Ireland and in some cases have never even been to Ireland, they are to all intents and purposes English, yet still cling to their Irish heritage, often to the point of hostility towards England. Is this sort of mentality common with Russians of Ukrainian and Belarusian descent?

    Replies: @Mikhail

    In England it’s very common for people of second or third generation Irish descent to be more patriotic to Ireland than England/UK, or even exclusively patriotic towards Ireland in some cases.

    Works the other way around as well. Ditto for many people of Ukrainian background in Russia. There’s also the matter of being positive about both identities, whether Eire-UK or Russia-Ukraine.

  71. @Mr. XYZ
    Interesting article, Anatoly! That said, though, please allow me to make a few points here:

    In 2013, on the eve of Euromaidan in Ukraine, even among 18-25 year-olds in the Donbass, the Eurasian Economic Union only beat out the European Union by a 38%-29% margin (with the rest of the Donbass youth apparently being undecided):

    https://pollotenchegg.livejournal.com/2013/11/01/

    https://akarlin.com/2013/11/ukraines-turn-to-the-east/

    "No, they are not, but its worth pointing out that Donetsk 18-25 year olds (from one of the most pro-Russian areas) support Customs Union accession (38% vs. 29%) to about the same extent as the average Ukrainian (40% vs. 33%). This is a H-U-G-E generational split you have there in the east, with support for Eurasian integration being almost unanimous among the elderly in Donetsk."

    This shows that even in the Donbass, there was a huge generational shift on this issue pre-Euromaidan and that Donbass youth were much more open to European Union membership than their elders were (who were almost unanimously in favor of Eurasian Economic Union membership).

    Also, interestingly enough, this specific polling in regards to Belarusian integration with the European Union versus Belarusian integration with Russia shows different data from what you have in your article above:

    https://belarusdigest.com/story/do-belarusians-want-to-join-the-eu/

    06`06 12`07 12`08 12`09 12`10 03`11 12`11 03`12 09`12 03`13
    Joining the EU 29,3 33,3 30,1 42,1 38 50,5 42 37,3 44,1 42,1
    Integration with Russia 56,5 47,5 46 42,3 38,1 31,5 41,5 47 36,2 37,2
    Data provided by the IISEPS

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I don't really have much else to challenge in the rest of your article. I do find it interesting that, among all of the Ukrainian regions, Novorossiya (including Crimea) achieved the highest literacy % (sometimes over 50%) under Tsarist rule according to Keith Darden's data and was still the most pro-Russian region of Ukraine even in the 21st century. Of course, Novorossiya (and especially, but not only, Crimea) also had a higher ethnic Russian percentage than the rest of Ukraine had in both the 19th and the 21st centuries, so this could also explain the greater amount of historical Russophilia there--as in, the idea that being surrounded by Russians makes Ukrainians themselves more pro-Russian.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    All I can say is that it fluctuates a great deal with the economic situation, with Luka’s popularity, with the poll used, with the tenor of coverage on TV. In general, the Eurasian Union has polled consistently better than the EU, there seems to be a weak general trend in favor of the EU over time, but it’s hard to disentangle due to the fluctuations. Another important point ofc is that EU is not actually on the table, it’s a largely hypothetical choice.

    I am familiar with that Donbass poll, AP has brought it up a lot over the years. Young people throughout the ex-USSR tend to be more liberal and pro-Western (the two often go together) with age, to what extent that will hold as they age is another question.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @Anatoly Karlin


    Another important point ofc is that EU is not actually on the table, it’s a largely hypothetical choice.
     
    If a color revolution happens in Belarus, EU membership could in theory eventually become on the table for Belarus--perhaps at the same time that it becomes on the table for Ukraine, so around 2040-2050 would be my guess. Why exactly should the EU offer membership to a Belarus that's still ruled by Luka?

    I am familiar with that Donbass poll, AP has brought it up a lot over the years. Young people throughout the ex-USSR tend to be more liberal and pro-Western (the two often go together) with age, to what extent that will hold as they age is another question.
     
    TBH, I'm not exactly sure what's going to make Eurasia much more attractive to Belarus's and the Donbass's youth once they will age. I mean, Yes, the West certainly has its problems, but as countries such as Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, and the Baltic countries show, one can become a part of the West without much of the negatives (such as huge non-Asian minority populations)--well, other than the brain drain, though Russia is also capable of brain draining Belarus and the EU (just like Russia) is able to compensate Belarus for its brain drain with huge subsidies if the desire to do this will actually exist among them.
  72. @AP
    @Miro23

    Russians may be smarter than Italians but they may also be even more culturally prone to corruption. Overall I'd expect an eventual Mediterranean-industrialized (so more like Italy than Portugal) level of development and prosperity from Russia. The Slavs with the highest chance of eventually achieving German or Swedish levels would be Czechs and Poles.

    Replies: @justiana, @Anatoly Karlin, @Blinky Bill

    Also, while there are probably no major Russian groups as dull as South Italians, there are likewise no major Russian groups that are as bright as North Italians, who are not far off from the Swiss and South Germans – especially once one subtracts the latter’s immigrants.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @Anatoly Karlin

    You know, I wonder if the southern Italians who came to the US 100+ years ago were more or less intelligent on average than their co-ethnics who remained back at home.

    , @RadicalCenter
    @Anatoly Karlin

    AK, as someone whose maternal ancestors hailed from the MIDDLE of Italy, I’m not sure how to feel about this comment ;)

    Seriously though, good luck and God’s blessings to my paisans and to our russian friends.

  73. @AP

    The Russian nationalist obsession with Ukraine and Belarus strikes me as insecurity and pettiness,
     
    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn't simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.

    Of course, in Ukraine's case union simply isn't feasible, at least not in the foreseeable future. Post 2014 actions have solidified this. An invasion would just make things worse; there would be a cycle of insurrection and repression, and Kiev would achieve 1940s Galician levels of Russia-hatred.

    it would be like Germans refusing to recognise Dutch as a separate people and nation.
     
    Correct.

    Replies: @Maïkl Makfaïl, @Mr. XYZ, @AnonFromTN, @Anatoly Karlin

    This is somewhat OT but annexing Kazakhstan would be a catastrophic decision.
    Benefits:
    (1) 3 million Russians
    (2) Baikonur
    Problems:
    (1) 15 million more Muslims (even if moderate ones), making Peter Akuleyev’s fantasies into reality at a single stroke.
    (2) With an average IQ of ~85 and TFR of ~3. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/map-of-kazakhstan-iq/
    (3) With their own developed national consciousness (they voted for national parties in 1917).
    Even the most hardcore irredentist Russian nationalists only seriously talk of North Kazakhstan/South Siberia. (I am of the opinion that even that train has left the station).

    • Agree: Exile
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Anatoly Karlin

    A have met a few Kazakh in my life, and none of them was dull. Quite the opposite. And Kazakhstan politics under Nazarbayev were also far from being stupid. In fact Nazarbayev was probably wiser than all contemporary Slav (and Jewish) rulers of the former USSR.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  74. @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    in Ukraine the most “svidomy parts” (Galicia and Kiev) are also the most highly educated.
     
    If you ask people who were born and raised in Kiev, they say the opposite: the most svydomy are uncouth newcomer villagers from Western Ukraine, who they despise.

    Central Asians in general tend to be less troublesome than Caucasians
     
    Of course, Central Asians are less troublesome than many North Caucasians. They developed to the level of feudal society under their own power, whereas many North Caucasian people have essentially primeval tribal mentality. Remember, Alexander the Great conquered many nations but failed to conquer several primeval tribes in Central Asia at the time. Primeval people cannot be conquered, they can only be exterminated. That’s the reason for the different fate of North and South American Indians.

    Replies: @AP, @RadicalCenter

    If you ask people who were born and raised in Kiev, they say the opposite: the most svydomy are uncouth newcomer villagers from Western Ukraine, who they despise.

    Wrong on various levels. The most nationalistic people are not western Ukrainian villagers but people from Lviv or other western cities. And to an extent Kiev. Western villagers tend to take being Ukrainian for granted and speak Ukrainian but they aren’t super politically active.

    I visit Kiev regularly; you never do. The people really despised in Kiev are Donbas people. For example there were signs in perekhods “do not piss here, this is not Donetsk.”

    Western Ukrainian villagers are seen as pleasant hobbits. Kiev attracts people from all over the country but it isn’t flooded by western Ukrainian villagers. If they leave their homes for work they go to Poland which is closer and offers much higher wages. Most Ukrainian-speaking newcomers to Kiev are from villages in neighboring oblasts like Zhytomir or Chernigov. There are also Ukrainian-speaking grandmothers from nearby villages in Kiev oblast selling fruits (in Moscow this is usually done by non-Russians like Azeris).

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    I visit Kiev regularly; you never do.
     
    FYI, I visited Kiev several times, last in 2011. What’s more, my cousin and her husband live in Kiev. Indeed, I never visited Kiev after Nazi takeover and won’t until Nazis hang on lampposts.

    Replies: @Ano4, @AP

  75. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    This is somewhat OT but annexing Kazakhstan would be a catastrophic decision.
    Benefits:
    (1) 3 million Russians
    (2) Baikonur
    Problems:
    (1) 15 million more Muslims (even if moderate ones), making Peter Akuleyev's fantasies into reality at a single stroke.
    (2) With an average IQ of ~85 and TFR of ~3. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/map-of-kazakhstan-iq/
    (3) With their own developed national consciousness (they voted for national parties in 1917).
    Even the most hardcore irredentist Russian nationalists only seriously talk of North Kazakhstan/South Siberia. (I am of the opinion that even that train has left the station).

    Replies: @Ano4

    A have met a few Kazakh in my life, and none of them was dull. Quite the opposite. And Kazakhstan politics under Nazarbayev were also far from being stupid. In fact Nazarbayev was probably wiser than all contemporary Slav (and Jewish) rulers of the former USSR.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Ano4

    Same, but - selection bias. And countries can get lucky with rulers. OTOH, yes, I do have own doubts that the gap is so big. But that's what the data points to atm.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  76. @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    If you ask people who were born and raised in Kiev, they say the opposite: the most svydomy are uncouth newcomer villagers from Western Ukraine, who they despise.
     
    Wrong on various levels. The most nationalistic people are not western Ukrainian villagers but people from Lviv or other western cities. And to an extent Kiev. Western villagers tend to take being Ukrainian for granted and speak Ukrainian but they aren’t super politically active.

    I visit Kiev regularly; you never do. The people really despised in Kiev are Donbas people. For example there were signs in perekhods “do not piss here, this is not Donetsk.”

    Western Ukrainian villagers are seen as pleasant hobbits. Kiev attracts people from all over the country but it isn’t flooded by western Ukrainian villagers. If they leave their homes for work they go to Poland which is closer and offers much higher wages. Most Ukrainian-speaking newcomers to Kiev are from villages in neighboring oblasts like Zhytomir or Chernigov. There are also Ukrainian-speaking grandmothers from nearby villages in Kiev oblast selling fruits (in Moscow this is usually done by non-Russians like Azeris).

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    I visit Kiev regularly; you never do.

    FYI, I visited Kiev several times, last in 2011. What’s more, my cousin and her husband live in Kiev. Indeed, I never visited Kiev after Nazi takeover and won’t until Nazis hang on lampposts.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AnonFromTN

    Don't know about Kiev but people I met in Odessa in 2018 told me that they liked Lvov as a city and felt alright there but they truly disliked the Western Ukrainian peasants that they called Raguli. According to these Odessite guys these Western Ukrainian country folks are gross, dull and aggressive. The guys in Odessa also surprised me cause they didn't like Russians either, although they had typical Russian names and spoke only Russian among themselves.

    Replies: @AP, @AnonFromTN

    , @AP
    @AnonFromTN

    I go about every 4 years, most recently in 2017. So I am due next year but will probably wait a year due to another trip postponed by corona. I have cousins there and am in regular contact. I visit Kiev, Lviv, an oblast center between the two and a village a couple hours from Kiev.

  77. @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    I visit Kiev regularly; you never do.
     
    FYI, I visited Kiev several times, last in 2011. What’s more, my cousin and her husband live in Kiev. Indeed, I never visited Kiev after Nazi takeover and won’t until Nazis hang on lampposts.

    Replies: @Ano4, @AP

    Don’t know about Kiev but people I met in Odessa in 2018 told me that they liked Lvov as a city and felt alright there but they truly disliked the Western Ukrainian peasants that they called Raguli. According to these Odessite guys these Western Ukrainian country folks are gross, dull and aggressive. The guys in Odessa also surprised me cause they didn’t like Russians either, although they had typical Russian names and spoke only Russian among themselves.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Ano4

    My last trip I rented a car and decided to visit a castle in Lviv oblast and then cut through country roads to get to the city of Ternopil, where I was dropping off medical supplies for a friend's elderly grandmother. Roads in and ~30 km around Lviv are up to modern Western standards, beyond that they are incredibly bad, and I blew out a tire somewhere in Ternopil oblast (and bent the car frame) on a massive pothole in a village deep in the middle of nowhere. A bunch of villagers helped me change my tire. Very helpful and friendly, kind, people. But rather third world-looking as one would see in Latin America (small stature, thin, wiry physique, older ones with missing teeth, etc.). One doesn't see such people in Lviv itself nor in villages surrounding the city. But a couple of hours drive away...

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Ano4

    I was born in Lvov. Last visited back in Soviet times, more than 30 years ago. After a lot of travel in many European and Asian countries my impression is that Lvov is a mini-Prague, relatively nice but second-hand.

    My aunt and her son and daughter used to live Lvov. My aunt passed away recently, her daughter lives now in Kiev, her son worked for 20+ years in Russia, never visited Ukraine after the coup. His son and son's wife now live in Netherlands. My cousin's current wife is officially registered in Lvov, but spends time between her son from the previous marriage in Israel and her son with my cousin in Netherlands. My Kiev cousin’s son moved to Russia in 2015 and still lives there, in Krasnoyarsk, of all places. My mother (she passed away recently) lived in Lugansk. After her apartment was damaged by Ukie shelling, I convinced her to get out and evacuated her to TN (naturally, via Russia, I have two cousins in Moscow, they helped a lot).

    Before 2014 I used to visit her every year, flying via Munich to Donetsk, and then taking a car ride from Donetsk to Lugansk. Now Ukies destroyed Donetsk airport, so the only way for me to Lugansk is via Russia (Moscow, Rostov, than a bus ride to Lugansk People’s Republic). Hope to bring her ashes there to bury next to my father’s grave. One of her friends there promised to help with the paperwork and things. I’ve even got notarized translation of her death certificate and cremation authorization into Russian. Planned to do it this September, but Covid slowed everything down.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Ano4

  78. @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    I visit Kiev regularly; you never do.
     
    FYI, I visited Kiev several times, last in 2011. What’s more, my cousin and her husband live in Kiev. Indeed, I never visited Kiev after Nazi takeover and won’t until Nazis hang on lampposts.

    Replies: @Ano4, @AP

    I go about every 4 years, most recently in 2017. So I am due next year but will probably wait a year due to another trip postponed by corona. I have cousins there and am in regular contact. I visit Kiev, Lviv, an oblast center between the two and a village a couple hours from Kiev.

  79. AP says:
    @Ano4
    @AnonFromTN

    Don't know about Kiev but people I met in Odessa in 2018 told me that they liked Lvov as a city and felt alright there but they truly disliked the Western Ukrainian peasants that they called Raguli. According to these Odessite guys these Western Ukrainian country folks are gross, dull and aggressive. The guys in Odessa also surprised me cause they didn't like Russians either, although they had typical Russian names and spoke only Russian among themselves.

    Replies: @AP, @AnonFromTN

    My last trip I rented a car and decided to visit a castle in Lviv oblast and then cut through country roads to get to the city of Ternopil, where I was dropping off medical supplies for a friend’s elderly grandmother. Roads in and ~30 km around Lviv are up to modern Western standards, beyond that they are incredibly bad, and I blew out a tire somewhere in Ternopil oblast (and bent the car frame) on a massive pothole in a village deep in the middle of nowhere. A bunch of villagers helped me change my tire. Very helpful and friendly, kind, people. But rather third world-looking as one would see in Latin America (small stature, thin, wiry physique, older ones with missing teeth, etc.). One doesn’t see such people in Lviv itself nor in villages surrounding the city. But a couple of hours drive away…

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AP

    I don't really care about the looks. I've been to some third world places where people and infrastructure were rather destitute. But the attitude of the locals was usually pleasant. If my Odessite acquaintance judged these Western Ukrainian country folks by their looks only, then these Odessa guys are snobs.

    Same about a lot of Big Town Western Europeans, North Americans and Moscow Russians when they deride Hillbillies, les Bouseux (in France) or Лохи Рязанские. I've spent a few summers in Russian glubinka when a kid and have hiked in Russian North West when teenager and young adult. The muzhiks there were nice people: hard working and wise. They drunk a lot of course, but they shared their drinks and their stories which is all we asked for me and my friends.

  80. @Ano4
    @Anatoly Karlin

    A have met a few Kazakh in my life, and none of them was dull. Quite the opposite. And Kazakhstan politics under Nazarbayev were also far from being stupid. In fact Nazarbayev was probably wiser than all contemporary Slav (and Jewish) rulers of the former USSR.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Same, but – selection bias. And countries can get lucky with rulers. OTOH, yes, I do have own doubts that the gap is so big. But that’s what the data points to atm.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I dont understand how Kazakhs can have so low IQ. Their genetics are majority Mongolian, mixed with some ancient Indo-European blood, and Mongolians have very high East Asian level of IQ. Also all Kazakhs and Kyrgyz I have met have been almost as bright as Mongols and Buryats, and very peaceful folk. I even know one Kazakh-Buryat family from St. Petesburg. The father is devout Muslim and mother Buddhist, and their daughter was raised Buddhist! And the Muslim father was totally okay with it!

    For the those who dont know much about them I must say that Kazakhs and Kyrgyz are as a people on a totally different level than Uzbeks and Tajiks. Shamanistic influence on their Islam is very strong, even nowadays old people in remote areas of Kyrgyzstan call Allah by the name of Tengri. And there is some Buddhist residual left in Islam practiced among Kyrgyz. They still tie colorful cloth pieces in trees in holy places, although they are just pieces of cloth without written mantras or wind horses. It is truly a great loss that Chagatai Khanate converted to Islam in mid 14th Century. Eastern areas of their realm were still Buddhist and Tengrist so they did not have same demographical pressure as Ilkhans and Golden Horde.

    Replies: @Ano4

  81. @AP
    @Ano4

    My last trip I rented a car and decided to visit a castle in Lviv oblast and then cut through country roads to get to the city of Ternopil, where I was dropping off medical supplies for a friend's elderly grandmother. Roads in and ~30 km around Lviv are up to modern Western standards, beyond that they are incredibly bad, and I blew out a tire somewhere in Ternopil oblast (and bent the car frame) on a massive pothole in a village deep in the middle of nowhere. A bunch of villagers helped me change my tire. Very helpful and friendly, kind, people. But rather third world-looking as one would see in Latin America (small stature, thin, wiry physique, older ones with missing teeth, etc.). One doesn't see such people in Lviv itself nor in villages surrounding the city. But a couple of hours drive away...

    Replies: @Ano4

    I don’t really care about the looks. I’ve been to some third world places where people and infrastructure were rather destitute. But the attitude of the locals was usually pleasant. If my Odessite acquaintance judged these Western Ukrainian country folks by their looks only, then these Odessa guys are snobs.

    Same about a lot of Big Town Western Europeans, North Americans and Moscow Russians when they deride Hillbillies, les Bouseux (in France) or Лохи Рязанские. I’ve spent a few summers in Russian glubinka when a kid and have hiked in Russian North West when teenager and young adult. The muzhiks there were nice people: hard working and wise. They drunk a lot of course, but they shared their drinks and their stories which is all we asked for me and my friends.

    • Agree: AP
  82. @Hyperborean
    @Mr. XYZ


    But anyway, a lot of Muslim countries are dumps (either economically or in terms of political attitudes) and thus Kazakhstan needs to maintain its independence in order to serve as a positive inspiration for these other Muslim countries to reform and to clean up their act.
     
    How is this supposed to work? In terms of exports Kazakhstan is like a poor man's Australia and politically it is a stability-focused Sovok secular autocracy.

    Which is not the worst thing to be considering their national characteristics, but I doubt that Kazakhstan will inspire more converts to "cleaning up their act" than the graveyard of other secular resource-dependent dictatorships that used to rule far more prominent Muslim nations.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    So, other than natural resources, Kazakhstan doesn’t actually export anything?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Mr. XYZ


    So, other than natural resources, Kazakhstan doesn’t actually export anything?
     
    From a practical perspective, not really.

    The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in Kazakhstani global shipments during 2019. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from Kazakhstan.

    Mineral fuels including oil: US$38.7 billion (67.1% of total exports)
    Iron, steel: $3.5 billion (6%)
    Ores, slag, ash: $2.7 billion (4.7%)
    Copper: $2.6 billion (4.5%)
    Inorganic chemicals: $2.2 billion (3.8%)
    Cereals: $1.4 billion (2.3%)
    Salt, sulphur, stone, cement: $593.5 million (1%)
    Aluminum: $565.1 million (1%)
    Zinc: $505.2 million (0.9%)
    Oil seeds: $425.8 million (0.7%)

    Kazakhstan’s top 10 exports accounted for 92.2% of the overall value of its global shipments.

    [...]

    At the more detailed four-digit Harmonized Tariff System (HTS) code level, Kazakhstan’s most valuable export product is crude oil (58.1% of total). In second place was Kazakhstan’s exported petroleum gases (6%), refined copper and unwrought alloys (4.3%), iron ferroalloys (3.3%), radioactive chemical elements (2.7%), copper ores and concentrates (2%), refined petroleum oils (1.8%), wheat (1.7%) iron ores and concentrates (1.2%) then precious metal ores and concentrates (1%).
     
    http://www.worldstopexports.com/kazakhstans-top-10-exports/
  83. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Mr. XYZ

    All I can say is that it fluctuates a great deal with the economic situation, with Luka's popularity, with the poll used, with the tenor of coverage on TV. In general, the Eurasian Union has polled consistently better than the EU, there seems to be a weak general trend in favor of the EU over time, but it's hard to disentangle due to the fluctuations. Another important point ofc is that EU is not actually on the table, it's a largely hypothetical choice.

    I am familiar with that Donbass poll, AP has brought it up a lot over the years. Young people throughout the ex-USSR tend to be more liberal and pro-Western (the two often go together) with age, to what extent that will hold as they age is another question.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Another important point ofc is that EU is not actually on the table, it’s a largely hypothetical choice.

    If a color revolution happens in Belarus, EU membership could in theory eventually become on the table for Belarus–perhaps at the same time that it becomes on the table for Ukraine, so around 2040-2050 would be my guess. Why exactly should the EU offer membership to a Belarus that’s still ruled by Luka?

    I am familiar with that Donbass poll, AP has brought it up a lot over the years. Young people throughout the ex-USSR tend to be more liberal and pro-Western (the two often go together) with age, to what extent that will hold as they age is another question.

    TBH, I’m not exactly sure what’s going to make Eurasia much more attractive to Belarus’s and the Donbass’s youth once they will age. I mean, Yes, the West certainly has its problems, but as countries such as Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, and the Baltic countries show, one can become a part of the West without much of the negatives (such as huge non-Asian minority populations)–well, other than the brain drain, though Russia is also capable of brain draining Belarus and the EU (just like Russia) is able to compensate Belarus for its brain drain with huge subsidies if the desire to do this will actually exist among them.

  84. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    Also, while there are probably no major Russian groups as dull as South Italians, there are likewise no major Russian groups that are as bright as North Italians, who are not far off from the Swiss and South Germans - especially once one subtracts the latter's immigrants.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @RadicalCenter

    You know, I wonder if the southern Italians who came to the US 100+ years ago were more or less intelligent on average than their co-ethnics who remained back at home.

  85. @Ano4
    @AnonFromTN

    Don't know about Kiev but people I met in Odessa in 2018 told me that they liked Lvov as a city and felt alright there but they truly disliked the Western Ukrainian peasants that they called Raguli. According to these Odessite guys these Western Ukrainian country folks are gross, dull and aggressive. The guys in Odessa also surprised me cause they didn't like Russians either, although they had typical Russian names and spoke only Russian among themselves.

    Replies: @AP, @AnonFromTN

    I was born in Lvov. Last visited back in Soviet times, more than 30 years ago. After a lot of travel in many European and Asian countries my impression is that Lvov is a mini-Prague, relatively nice but second-hand.

    My aunt and her son and daughter used to live Lvov. My aunt passed away recently, her daughter lives now in Kiev, her son worked for 20+ years in Russia, never visited Ukraine after the coup. His son and son’s wife now live in Netherlands. My cousin’s current wife is officially registered in Lvov, but spends time between her son from the previous marriage in Israel and her son with my cousin in Netherlands. My Kiev cousin’s son moved to Russia in 2015 and still lives there, in Krasnoyarsk, of all places. My mother (she passed away recently) lived in Lugansk. After her apartment was damaged by Ukie shelling, I convinced her to get out and evacuated her to TN (naturally, via Russia, I have two cousins in Moscow, they helped a lot).

    Before 2014 I used to visit her every year, flying via Munich to Donetsk, and then taking a car ride from Donetsk to Lugansk. Now Ukies destroyed Donetsk airport, so the only way for me to Lugansk is via Russia (Moscow, Rostov, than a bus ride to Lugansk People’s Republic). Hope to bring her ashes there to bury next to my father’s grave. One of her friends there promised to help with the paperwork and things. I’ve even got notarized translation of her death certificate and cremation authorization into Russian. Planned to do it this September, but Covid slowed everything down.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AnonFromTN

    You might get a kick out of this. At a state park near me, this guy who appeared to be with his family and no one else, had a Ukrainian flag planted in the ground. Talk about dedication.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @Ano4
    @AnonFromTN

    I think I can relate to your situation to some extent. The integration of different ethnic groups was deepening under the Soviet regime. I have read somewhere that even for Soviet Jews a couple of more generations of USSR would have meant a near complete assimilation. Maybe that was one of the reasons why Perestroika was rushed along.

    This is something the majority of people who did not live in the final decades of USSR, 70ies and 80ies, just before the Perestroika do not understand. I remember how in my childhood Moscow building, in our 9 floors staircase we had Russian, Belarusian, Armenian, Jewish, Ukrainian and Tatar living together. In a single staircase. And there were 10 of them in our building.

    Before 1988 I have never really realized that there were any real differences between ethnicities, in my school class there were an Azeri and an Armenian boys who were best friends. Of course that was Moscow, the capital of the Soviet Realm, but my experiences in Leningrad were similar. In Tallinn, that I have visited in 1989 it was completely different, a kind of Apartheid with Estonians more or less segregated from the other Soviet citizens, but even there I met mixed couples.

    My grandfather was born somewhere between Debaltsevo and Enakievo in 1916, his father origins were from Southern Russia (probably Kursk or Kuban), his mother's origins were mixed Ruthenian from Belarus and Polish Orthodox from Ukraine (I frankly am not sure if all Orthodox Poles are not of Ruthenian descent). He was registered by the authorities as Russian at birth, but his younger brother born in 1924 was registered as Ukrainian. My grandfather always saw himself as Russian and Ukrainian at the same time, he was very proud of his Ukrainian roots, spoke and read both languages. On his mother's side one of his cousins joined the OUN UPA and fought the Soviets somewhere in the Western Ukraine and got killed in 1948. My grandfather fought in the Red Army during all the war and was very proud of it. Interestingly enough, his family name is also found among some Volga Tatars. I am really glad that he did not live enough to witness the current situation. I think he would have gone completely bitter and would have lost his faith in the human goodness that he has managed to keep until his death in 1996.

    My grandmother was from Russian glubinka in Penza Oblast'. She was a typical Russian, from a typical Russian small village. But according to what she told a few kilometers away there were Tatar villages and somewhere near Mordvinian villages as well. People in these different villages were aware of their differences and did not marry each other in the Tsarist times, but they lived in peace and traded with each other. In the early 1930ies these villages got collectivized and starved in exactly the same manner as Ukrainians starved during their Hlodomor. My grandmother always thought that my grandfather's family was different from her family. The culture and attitude were different. To her my grandfather was Ukrainian. But they lived their lives together and raised their children and had I think a happy home despite the war and all the difficulties. They are buried side by side now and I always visit their grave when I go to Russia.

    This ability to get along and live together and even see each other as family is badly damaged today. But maybe it is not lost completely. One can hope at least that peace might return to Donbass. In this war everyone is losing. In this opposition of Russian and Ukrainian nationalism everyone is wrong. This leads nowhere.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Philip Owen

  86. Excellent article. Thank you, Anatoly!

    • Thanks: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @Anon 2



    No, it's mostly bullshit in that it focuses on various "fake news" narratives instead of the underlying truth.

    The truth is that e.g. Odessa has less "Ukrainians", both per-capita and in absolute terms, than Moscow.

    But Odessa will never join Russia, because they have their own crooked elite, and any sort of reuinification will imply a mass cleansing and prison sentences for Odessan crooks by airlifted agents from Moscow.

    The conflict was always only economic in nature. (Discounting Galicia here for now, that asshole of Europe isn't important in any grand scheme of things.)

    Replies: @AP

  87. @Anon 2
    Excellent article. Thank you, Anatoly!

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    [MORE]

    No, it’s mostly bullshit in that it focuses on various “fake news” narratives instead of the underlying truth.

    The truth is that e.g. Odessa has less “Ukrainians”, both per-capita and in absolute terms, than Moscow.

    But Odessa will never join Russia, because they have their own crooked elite, and any sort of reuinification will imply a mass cleansing and prison sentences for Odessan crooks by airlifted agents from Moscow.

    The conflict was always only economic in nature. (Discounting Galicia here for now, that asshole of Europe isn’t important in any grand scheme of things.)

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @AP
    @anonymous coward


    No, it’s mostly bullshit in that it focuses on various “fake news” narratives instead of the underlying truth.
     
    Wrong.

    The truth is that e.g. Odessa has less “Ukrainians”, both per-capita and in absolute terms, than Moscow.
     
    Wrong.



    Odessa demographics, last census

    622,900 Ukrainians, 62% of the city's population

    Moscow demographics, last census

    154,000 Ukrainians, 1.42% of the population

    You will still be wrong if you include a couple 100,000 Donbas refugees.

    :::::::::

    Your streak continues.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  88. AP says:
    @anonymous coward
    @Anon 2



    No, it's mostly bullshit in that it focuses on various "fake news" narratives instead of the underlying truth.

    The truth is that e.g. Odessa has less "Ukrainians", both per-capita and in absolute terms, than Moscow.

    But Odessa will never join Russia, because they have their own crooked elite, and any sort of reuinification will imply a mass cleansing and prison sentences for Odessan crooks by airlifted agents from Moscow.

    The conflict was always only economic in nature. (Discounting Galicia here for now, that asshole of Europe isn't important in any grand scheme of things.)

    Replies: @AP

    No, it’s mostly bullshit in that it focuses on various “fake news” narratives instead of the underlying truth.

    Wrong.

    The truth is that e.g. Odessa has less “Ukrainians”, both per-capita and in absolute terms, than Moscow.

    Wrong.

    [MORE]

    Odessa demographics, last census

    622,900 Ukrainians, 62% of the city’s population

    Moscow demographics, last census

    154,000 Ukrainians, 1.42% of the population

    You will still be wrong if you include a couple 100,000 Donbas refugees.

    :::::::::

    Your streak continues.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @AP



    There's Ukrainian and then there's "Ukrainian".

    Let's label them "type A" and "type B".

    "Type A Ukrainian" are the descendants of the original Malorossian stock, an ethnicity with their own quirks of language and culture.

    "Type B Ukrainian" are simply people who expect economic benefits for being anti-Russian.

    "Type A" cluster around eastern Ukraine. The Kuban, southern Russia, the LDNR, etc., are chock-full of them.

    "Type B" are deracinated mystery-meat sovoks, typically pseudo- or crypto-semites.

    Ethnic self-identification of the moronic kind that you cite is really problematic, because "type B" have co-opted the term "Ukrainian", and "type A" really, really despise "type B", to the point that they'd much rather self-identify as Russian than to be connected in any way with "type B".

    The 600k "Ukrainians" in Odessa are all "type B".

    And therein lies the problem: since their only ethnic identity is "I want gibs for not being Russian", they will happily switch to self-identifying as reptilians or raelians instead of "Ukrainian", overnight, if the geopolitical situation changes.

  89. @Anatoly Karlin
    @utu

    This post is classic small nation cope. While hobbitdom does have its charms, there are a couple of problems with it:

    (1) There are certain achievements that are forever beyond their rich simply on account of economies on scale. E.g., Poland literally "cannot into space."

    They also cannot be autarkic in either economics or culture (heroic counter-examples like Best Korea aside), leaving them at the mercy of vicissitudes in the world's real top dogs.

    (2) The mask of moral superiority it pretends to also happens to be fake and gay. As soon as these small nations somehow acquire real power, they tend to become quite vicious little predators themselves.

    Replies: @Anon 2, @Exile, @reiner Tor

    Re: Poland cannot into space

    The answer to that is that inner space is much more interesting than
    outer space. There is little to be gained from going to the Moon or Mars,
    except militarily. Space exploration will, of course, continue because
    that’s what the military-industrial complexes around the world want.
    It’s mostly about national megalomania, and outside of low Earth orbits,
    it’s a tremendous waste of money. The moon and Mars are about as
    interesting as the Antarctic, meaning not very. Human boredom is
    also a factor. Some people, especially those in their 20s and 30s
    (i.e., highly hormonal) can’t live unless they’re in a permanent state
    of excitement. This generally goes away in our 40s, and we finally
    realize that outer space is one big bore.

    [MORE]

    Growing disillusionment with science and technology may also make
    people much less interested in spending huge amounts of money
    on the colonization of outer space.

    But I do realize that being predatory primates, territorialism
    is built into our brains, and one of the simplest ways to become
    euphoric is to expand one’s territory. Russians were in a state
    of euphoria for 2-3 years after Putin annexed Crimea.
    However, our spiritual technology is so advanced today
    that we can easily attain euphoric states of consciousness
    without any cost. No need to go into space for that.
    Russian cosmism was developed when people knew
    next to nothing about expanded states of consciousness

    To summarize my post: today’s spiritual technology (typically involving
    meditation, contemplation, Kundalini awakening, …) is so advanced that
    we know exactly how to achieve euphoric states without any need
    to invade countries or to go into our space. It’s free of charge so there
    is no need to be wealthy either. Pursuit of wealth is a blind alley.
    There is absolutely no need for countries to be wealthy (but poverty
    is not advisable either). As I always say – seek (Buddhist/Aristotelian)
    moderation in all things

    • LOL: AltanBakshi
  90. @Belarusian Dude
    Interesting post, though I have some objections/notes to make.

    For one, when you touch on Gomel being Russified and other parts of Russian language in Belarus I can only smirk. While it is true that in some places the amount of people that speak Russian on paper is about 100%, the Russian many speak would be nigh unidentifiable to many people living in Moscow. I live in the far Southern fringe of inhabitable Gomel and most people here speak a variation upon what people might call Polesian.

    On the topic of Lithuanianization vs Polonification I think you missed the rather obvious fact that they're different language groups. Even if related Baltic and Slavic are nevertheless very different in both syntax and vocabulary. I've tried to learn Lithuanian before and frankly I must note that geographic proximity of our peoples actually only makes there an abundance of what language learners call "false-friends."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_friend
    Literary Belarusian is a bit of a sham language I will concur however. There are two main variants, the narkomowka and Tarashkevitsa. Both are hilarious mish-mashes of local dialects, the former more accurate to Belarus as a whole while the latter is more accurate to the centre and East of the country (interestingly enough this is the preferred variant of the zmagars) made much earlier by a hardcore bolshevik when the USSR had a far smaller Belarusian territory to sample linguistics off of. The only positive thing I have to say about tarashkevitsa is that the only word for jew is "zhyd", or "kike" when translated to English. Alas, the faggotry of the state department insured that this was soon remedied with "habrey" as a more PC variant by the diasporoid government in exile.

    Fun fact, Boris Kowerda was a Russian nationalist (or more accurately a monarchist) that in his exile was driven to assassinate soviet ambassadors. He spoke Belarusian out of necessity way before the Soviet Union implemented korenization policies and worked as a an editor for Belarusian language newspapers so I am very, very skeptical of the whole "Belarusian language usage is a product of Stalinist korenization".

    The disconnect between peasantry and nobility is also worthwhile to note here I suppose. The nobles integrated very well with the Lithuanians converting to Catholicism, taking on Lithuanian names and family names. They were happy to go with the Greco-Catholic heresy. The commonfolk, the proles and such were overwhelmingly apathetic to their Lithuanian overlords. Whenever Russians showed up to Belarusian locales after conquering them from the PLC the locales showed up welcoming them similar to say, French welcoming American GIs showing up in nazi occupied France, and funnily enough they only demands they ever offered were things like a chance to massacre all the jews of the locale previously protected by the Poles and Lithuanians. In the many uprisings of the PLC, people from the area of modern day Belarus were the most fierce and the Ruthenians of modern day Belarus were described as the most savage; looters, murderers, etc. This is probably not just propaganda and likely was fairly true. After all given these rebels were almost entirely peasants as opposed to the South of what we now know as Ukraine that had many noble defectors, the uprisings in Belarus were quite literally legions of what today we know as gopniks and football hooligans.

    I'll have to for myself stick with a stance in the golden mean of the zmagar and Russian nationalist interpretations of what Belarus is and Belarusians are.

    Replies: @utu, @Belarusian Dude, @Dmitry

    Latching onto this comment, Belarusian identity struggled to develop properly unlikea Ukrainian one because it lacked a loyal elite. Ukraine had Shevchenko, Khmelnytsky, Gogol, Mikluha-Maklai, the Skoropadsky family and yes even Bandera. Our entire smart fraction either dissolved into Lithuanian, Polish or Russian societies unlike the less cosmopolitan Ukrainians who had many post medieval heroes. This is why unfortunately Belarusian poetry for example is mediocre at best, our greatest of writers like Kupala only switching to Belarusian after finding no success in either Russian or Polish. With the language and culture only having any real existence among oft illiterate proles it is no surprise its easy for our neighbours to ridicule our culture. Zmagars have had to resort to claiming men like Tadeusz Kosciuzko and other people who literally never spole a work of Belarusian in their lives for themselves which makes the whole affair more pathetic.

    That said, I’m perfectly fine with Belarusianism staying in the common people. This might of course reek of swine right and anti intellectualism but I don’t really care.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Belarusian Dude

    There are two important considerations to take into account when comparing the more successful evolution of Ukrainian nationalism and statehood than what occurred in Belarus. Ukrainian nationalism is really an amalgamation of the different historical processes between Western Ukraine, specifically Galicia (often referred to as the Piedmont of Ukraine) and Eastern Ukraine, the last bastion of Cossack patriotism developed by the progeny of the Cossack elite. Ukraine is a much larger country than Belorus, including a much larger population too. As AP wrote above:


    The native cultures [Belarusian and Ukrainian] are closer to each other than either is to Russian. However for various reasons Belarusians have “Russified” to a large extent, so this similarity is irrelevant. It just means that long ago there was “raw material” with which some sort of Ukrainian-Belarussian union could have been constructed (or Belarusians could have been fused with Ukrainians) but the time for that passed many generations ago. IIRC Khmelytsky was struggling with Moscow over control of Belarus but failed to secure it under his authority. That probably would have been the chance:
     
    The "various reasons" why the Ukrainian project was more successful than the Belarusian one was that Belarus never underwent the radical Westernization that occured in Western Ukraine during several centuries of Austrian Habsburg tutelage, and that Belarus was only involved at the fringes with the Hetmanate autonomy witnessed in Ukraine. There were, however, many common cultural and political figures that both Belarusians and Ukrainians hold in high esteem from a long earlier period. Have you read this very interesting article? What do you think?
    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2048&context=ccr
  91. @AnonFromTN
    @Ano4

    I was born in Lvov. Last visited back in Soviet times, more than 30 years ago. After a lot of travel in many European and Asian countries my impression is that Lvov is a mini-Prague, relatively nice but second-hand.

    My aunt and her son and daughter used to live Lvov. My aunt passed away recently, her daughter lives now in Kiev, her son worked for 20+ years in Russia, never visited Ukraine after the coup. His son and son's wife now live in Netherlands. My cousin's current wife is officially registered in Lvov, but spends time between her son from the previous marriage in Israel and her son with my cousin in Netherlands. My Kiev cousin’s son moved to Russia in 2015 and still lives there, in Krasnoyarsk, of all places. My mother (she passed away recently) lived in Lugansk. After her apartment was damaged by Ukie shelling, I convinced her to get out and evacuated her to TN (naturally, via Russia, I have two cousins in Moscow, they helped a lot).

    Before 2014 I used to visit her every year, flying via Munich to Donetsk, and then taking a car ride from Donetsk to Lugansk. Now Ukies destroyed Donetsk airport, so the only way for me to Lugansk is via Russia (Moscow, Rostov, than a bus ride to Lugansk People’s Republic). Hope to bring her ashes there to bury next to my father’s grave. One of her friends there promised to help with the paperwork and things. I’ve even got notarized translation of her death certificate and cremation authorization into Russian. Planned to do it this September, but Covid slowed everything down.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Ano4

    You might get a kick out of this. At a state park near me, this guy who appeared to be with his family and no one else, had a Ukrainian flag planted in the ground. Talk about dedication.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mikhail


    At a state park near me, this guy who appeared to be with his family and no one else, had a Ukrainian flag planted in the ground. Talk about dedication.
     
    Yet another proof that White Christians have no right to make fun of ISIS, Taliban, or KSA crazies.
    The funniest thing is that this is also Down syndrome flag. Or maybe it isn't funny, just fitting.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  92. @AP
    @Maïkl Makfaïl


    Agree . And if Russia manages to unleash economic growth, Russian still being the number 1 démography and army in Europe
     
    If.

    At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It's not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes. That's not going to draw everyone into its orbit.

    By the end of 2013 Russia the gap in terms of wealth between Ukraine and Russia was the greatest it had ever been. And yet Ukraine turned away from Russia. Since Maidan, Ukraine has already started to narrow the gap with Russia. By early 2020 it had turned the clock back to 2011 in terms of per capita GDP PPP discrepancy between the two countries.


    According to polls the support for EU integration in Ukraine has already fallen to 42 % from over 60 % several months ago.
     
    When was this? Most recent poll by KIIS was in February 2020:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=927&page=5

    Pretty stable 51% for, 26% against, rest don't care. So if this were a referendum EU wins 66.5% to 35.5%. EU wins in the West, Center and South and only loses in the East of the country.

    Support for NATO at 44%, an increase from 40% in February 2019 though not as high as 48% when the war in the East was hotter. Opposition to NATO at 31% so NATO would win a referendum. Regionally, NATO wins in the West and Center but loses in the South and East.


    And a Russian invasion would be a massive demonstration of force , would bring to an end Kievs anti Russian propaganda and would open economic perspectives for Ukrainians => would be met with enthusiasm.
     
    Wishful thinking. It would simply bring destruction, resistance, more destruction, and hatred. As anywhere else under similar circumstances.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Derer, @anonlb, @Maïkl Makfaïl

    If.

    At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It’s not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes.

    ===> An estimation coming out straight out of your ass and a prediction based on absolutely nothing, of course, except your rage against Russia.

    That’s not going to draw everyone into its orbit.

    ===>The funniest thing is that even if Russia only manages to achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity it would still mean a GDP larger than Japan’s since Italian pc gdp and Japanese are the same. And Russia has already a more vibrant IT tech scene than all the rusty European countries which will matter more than anything else in the 21st century and a GDP bigger than Germany . And Ukraine is still pretty much into Russia’s orbit from an economic point of view , despite hundreds of sanctions , Russia is still Ukraine number 1 investor and trade partner.

    By the end of 2013 Russia the gap in terms of wealth between Ukraine and Russia was the greatest it had ever been. And yet Ukraine turned away from Russia. Since Maidan, Ukraine has already started to narrow the gap with Russia. By early 2020 it had turned the clock back to 2011 in terms of per capita GDP PPP discrepancy between the two countries.

    ===> Ukraine narrowing the gap with Russia since Maidan ? 🤣🤣🤣 With what ? Its gdp falling almost without interruption , almost totally destroyed industry or its Gabon’s levels of labour productivity ? Its not the Russians that are fleeing their country to Ukraine but the other way around.

    When was this? Most recent poll by KIIS was in February 2020:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=927&page=5

    Pretty stable 51% for, 26% against, rest don’t care. So if this were a referendum EU wins 66.5% to 35.5%. EU wins in the West, Center and South and only loses in the East of the country.

    Support for NATO at 44%, an increase from 40% in February 2019 though not as high as 48% when the war in the East was hotter. Opposition to NATO at 31% so NATO would win a referendum. Regionally, NATO wins in the West and Center but loses in the South and East.

    ==> https://www.courrierinternational.com/article/geopolitique-les-raisons-du-desamour-croissant-des-ukrainiens-envers-loccident Ukraine starting to realize it has no place in the West will only reinforce the pro Russia trends.

    Wishful thinking. It would simply bring destruction, resistance, more destruction, and hatred. As anywhere else under similar circumstances.

    ===> The destruction of banderist cucks and terrorists is long overdue indeed. We can do with the hate of some iodine-deficient yokels from the west of the country . As for their capacity of “resistance”, we have already seen that when we crushed banderists in no time at the end of WW II and forced them to crawl to Cacada , screaming and squealing . Ukrainian nationalists never knew how to fight. Even their nazi idols were laughing their untermensch performance.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AP
    @Maïkl Makfaïl


    "At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It’s not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes."

    ===> An estimation coming out straight out of your ass and a prediction based on absolutely nothing
     

    Russian average PISA score in Math is 488, Italy's is 487. I don't think Russia is less corrupt than Italy. So comparable human capital on average, and both are rather corrupt. Russia still has room for growth from the Soviet disaster but one can assume eventual convergence with Italy. Avtovaz will be another FIAT, etc.

    except your rage against Russia.
     
    Projection. Only one full of rage is you.

    Ukraine narrowing the gap with Russia since Maidan ? 🤣🤣🤣 With what ? Its gdp falling almost without interruption
     
    What a believer in fairytales you are. Ukraine has had solid uninterrupted GDP growth since the last quarter of 2015, until COVID-19. That is over four years.

    After an economic crash in 2014-2015 Ukraine recovered, by the end of 2019 surpassing the pre-Maidan levels and achieving its highest per capita GDP in constant dollars since the 2008 crash:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.KD?locations=UA-RU

    Relative to Russia, Ukraine erased several years of comparative decline; by the end of 2019 Ukraine’s per capita GDP compared to Russia’s was back to where it had been in 2011.

    The effects are magnified when you consider that the current Ukraine is without Donbas, that had accounted for 20% of Ukraine’s GDP despite having only 10% of Ukraine’s population. That is, to compare apples to apples (Ukraine minus Donbas before Maidan to Ukraine minus Donbas after Maidan) you would have to subtract about 10% from Ukraine's figures before 2014 in order to compare the per capita GDPs of the regions currently under Kiev’s authority to pre-2014. So growth has been substantial, indeed.

    Ukrainian wages now surpass those in Belarus (though not when you take into account cost of living):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    What other Sovok fairytales do you believe? Ukraine was the richest USSR republic? Maidan was done for the cookies? LOL.


    almost totally destroyed industry
     
    Industry has seen only modest decline. Loss of industry in the east has been compensated for by new factories being built in the west and center.

    ==> https://www.courrierinternational.com/article/geopolitique-les-raisons-du-desamour-croissant-des-ukrainiens-envers-loccident Ukraine starting to realize it has no place in the West will only reinforce the pro Russia trends.
     
    I see. Article combines results from two surveys with likely different methodologies. So take the claim of significant decline in EU support with a big grain of salt. The KIIS tracking sample I linked to shows stability through February.

    The destruction of banderist cucks and terrorists is long overdue indeed. We can do with the hate of some iodine-deficient yokels from the west of the country . As for their capacity of “resistance”, we have already seen that when we crushed banderists in no time at the end of WW II
     
    Insurgency in western Ukraine lasted until the early 1950s. Soviets lost more personnel (according to Soviet archives) fighting against Banderists than Russia did in either Chechen wars. UPA/Banderists managed to kill the Soviet general, Vatutin, in charge of the Ukrainian Front and the Polish defense minister. These Banderist accomplishments were against the Soviet regime at the height of its power, not the shambling Yeltsin-era and early Putin-era Russia that the Chechens were fortunate enough to go up against.

    You are just an empty, non-thinking regurgitator of dumb Soviet memes.


    and forced them to crawl to Cacada
     
    Where they got rich like others lucky and smart enough to escape, while you Sovoks languished in poverty.

    Replies: @Maïkl Makfaïl

  93. @AP
    @anonymous coward


    No, it’s mostly bullshit in that it focuses on various “fake news” narratives instead of the underlying truth.
     
    Wrong.

    The truth is that e.g. Odessa has less “Ukrainians”, both per-capita and in absolute terms, than Moscow.
     
    Wrong.



    Odessa demographics, last census

    622,900 Ukrainians, 62% of the city's population

    Moscow demographics, last census

    154,000 Ukrainians, 1.42% of the population

    You will still be wrong if you include a couple 100,000 Donbas refugees.

    :::::::::

    Your streak continues.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    [MORE]

    There’s Ukrainian and then there’s “Ukrainian”.

    Let’s label them “type A” and “type B”.

    “Type A Ukrainian” are the descendants of the original Malorossian stock, an ethnicity with their own quirks of language and culture.

    “Type B Ukrainian” are simply people who expect economic benefits for being anti-Russian.

    “Type A” cluster around eastern Ukraine. The Kuban, southern Russia, the LDNR, etc., are chock-full of them.

    “Type B” are deracinated mystery-meat sovoks, typically pseudo- or crypto-semites.

    Ethnic self-identification of the moronic kind that you cite is really problematic, because “type B” have co-opted the term “Ukrainian”, and “type A” really, really despise “type B”, to the point that they’d much rather self-identify as Russian than to be connected in any way with “type B”.

    The 600k “Ukrainians” in Odessa are all “type B”.

    And therein lies the problem: since their only ethnic identity is “I want gibs for not being Russian”, they will happily switch to self-identifying as reptilians or raelians instead of “Ukrainian”, overnight, if the geopolitical situation changes.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  94. @utu
    "Children were kidnapped from Belorussian parents and used as disposable blood banks for German soldiers across 17 “donor concentration camps”. " - LOL

    Replies: @AP, @reiner Tor, @El Dato, @Exile

    The memorial project from AK’s link was led by a Levin. Anything a Levin is involved with regarding “German camps” should be approached with a lot of skepticism. It’s as much a part of the Belarussian historical narrative as the rest of the Holocaust/concentration camps are in the rest of the world, but it’s long past time we considered these claims in the same skeptical manner as we have with Apache smallpox blankets, Huns spitting babies on bayonets and Iraqi yellowcake.

  95. @Anatoly Karlin
    @utu

    This post is classic small nation cope. While hobbitdom does have its charms, there are a couple of problems with it:

    (1) There are certain achievements that are forever beyond their rich simply on account of economies on scale. E.g., Poland literally "cannot into space."

    They also cannot be autarkic in either economics or culture (heroic counter-examples like Best Korea aside), leaving them at the mercy of vicissitudes in the world's real top dogs.

    (2) The mask of moral superiority it pretends to also happens to be fake and gay. As soon as these small nations somehow acquire real power, they tend to become quite vicious little predators themselves.

    Replies: @Anon 2, @Exile, @reiner Tor

    A union with Russia, tight or loose, would be a net benefit for both Belarus & Russia. There isn’t one rule for every small nation/ethnicity as to popular sovereignty or union. Each of these situations has a complicated history all its own. I’m 1/2 Belarussian, grandmother from Minsk. I’d support this and the emigres I know would too. Most I know are more upset at the prospect of Poland and Ukraine being swallowed by NATO and dragging them along. They’d welcome Russian pushback on that, particularly if Vlad left them some autonomy.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin, Mikhail
  96. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Ano4

    Same, but - selection bias. And countries can get lucky with rulers. OTOH, yes, I do have own doubts that the gap is so big. But that's what the data points to atm.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    I dont understand how Kazakhs can have so low IQ. Their genetics are majority Mongolian, mixed with some ancient Indo-European blood, and Mongolians have very high East Asian level of IQ. Also all Kazakhs and Kyrgyz I have met have been almost as bright as Mongols and Buryats, and very peaceful folk. I even know one Kazakh-Buryat family from St. Petesburg. The father is devout Muslim and mother Buddhist, and their daughter was raised Buddhist! And the Muslim father was totally okay with it!

    For the those who dont know much about them I must say that Kazakhs and Kyrgyz are as a people on a totally different level than Uzbeks and Tajiks. Shamanistic influence on their Islam is very strong, even nowadays old people in remote areas of Kyrgyzstan call Allah by the name of Tengri. And there is some Buddhist residual left in Islam practiced among Kyrgyz. They still tie colorful cloth pieces in trees in holy places, although they are just pieces of cloth without written mantras or wind horses. It is truly a great loss that Chagatai Khanate converted to Islam in mid 14th Century. Eastern areas of their realm were still Buddhist and Tengrist so they did not have same demographical pressure as Ilkhans and Golden Horde.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi


    mixed with some ancient Indo-European blood,
     
    The Kazakh are highly admixed.

    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/kazakhs.html#:~:text=A%20high%20genetic%20diversity%20was,population%20(h%3D0.996).&text=It%20was%20found%20out%20that,of%20Asian%20origin%20(11.9%25).

    But overall they are probably 60% Eastern Eurasian and 40% Western Eurasian.

    Replies: @Haruto Rat

  97. @Mr. XYZ
    @Hyperborean

    So, other than natural resources, Kazakhstan doesn't actually export anything?

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    So, other than natural resources, Kazakhstan doesn’t actually export anything?

    From a practical perspective, not really.

    The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in Kazakhstani global shipments during 2019. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from Kazakhstan.

    Mineral fuels including oil: US$38.7 billion (67.1% of total exports)
    Iron, steel: $3.5 billion (6%)
    Ores, slag, ash: $2.7 billion (4.7%)
    Copper: $2.6 billion (4.5%)
    Inorganic chemicals: $2.2 billion (3.8%)
    Cereals: $1.4 billion (2.3%)
    Salt, sulphur, stone, cement: $593.5 million (1%)
    Aluminum: $565.1 million (1%)
    Zinc: $505.2 million (0.9%)
    Oil seeds: $425.8 million (0.7%)

    Kazakhstan’s top 10 exports accounted for 92.2% of the overall value of its global shipments.

    […]

    At the more detailed four-digit Harmonized Tariff System (HTS) code level, Kazakhstan’s most valuable export product is crude oil (58.1% of total). In second place was Kazakhstan’s exported petroleum gases (6%), refined copper and unwrought alloys (4.3%), iron ferroalloys (3.3%), radioactive chemical elements (2.7%), copper ores and concentrates (2%), refined petroleum oils (1.8%), wheat (1.7%) iron ores and concentrates (1.2%) then precious metal ores and concentrates (1%).

    http://www.worldstopexports.com/kazakhstans-top-10-exports/

  98. @AnonFromTN
    @Ano4

    I was born in Lvov. Last visited back in Soviet times, more than 30 years ago. After a lot of travel in many European and Asian countries my impression is that Lvov is a mini-Prague, relatively nice but second-hand.

    My aunt and her son and daughter used to live Lvov. My aunt passed away recently, her daughter lives now in Kiev, her son worked for 20+ years in Russia, never visited Ukraine after the coup. His son and son's wife now live in Netherlands. My cousin's current wife is officially registered in Lvov, but spends time between her son from the previous marriage in Israel and her son with my cousin in Netherlands. My Kiev cousin’s son moved to Russia in 2015 and still lives there, in Krasnoyarsk, of all places. My mother (she passed away recently) lived in Lugansk. After her apartment was damaged by Ukie shelling, I convinced her to get out and evacuated her to TN (naturally, via Russia, I have two cousins in Moscow, they helped a lot).

    Before 2014 I used to visit her every year, flying via Munich to Donetsk, and then taking a car ride from Donetsk to Lugansk. Now Ukies destroyed Donetsk airport, so the only way for me to Lugansk is via Russia (Moscow, Rostov, than a bus ride to Lugansk People’s Republic). Hope to bring her ashes there to bury next to my father’s grave. One of her friends there promised to help with the paperwork and things. I’ve even got notarized translation of her death certificate and cremation authorization into Russian. Planned to do it this September, but Covid slowed everything down.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Ano4

    I think I can relate to your situation to some extent. The integration of different ethnic groups was deepening under the Soviet regime. I have read somewhere that even for Soviet Jews a couple of more generations of USSR would have meant a near complete assimilation. Maybe that was one of the reasons why Perestroika was rushed along.

    This is something the majority of people who did not live in the final decades of USSR, 70ies and 80ies, just before the Perestroika do not understand. I remember how in my childhood Moscow building, in our 9 floors staircase we had Russian, Belarusian, Armenian, Jewish, Ukrainian and Tatar living together. In a single staircase. And there were 10 of them in our building.

    Before 1988 I have never really realized that there were any real differences between ethnicities, in my school class there were an Azeri and an Armenian boys who were best friends. Of course that was Moscow, the capital of the Soviet Realm, but my experiences in Leningrad were similar. In Tallinn, that I have visited in 1989 it was completely different, a kind of Apartheid with Estonians more or less segregated from the other Soviet citizens, but even there I met mixed couples.

    My grandfather was born somewhere between Debaltsevo and Enakievo in 1916, his father origins were from Southern Russia (probably Kursk or Kuban), his mother’s origins were mixed Ruthenian from Belarus and Polish Orthodox from Ukraine (I frankly am not sure if all Orthodox Poles are not of Ruthenian descent). He was registered by the authorities as Russian at birth, but his younger brother born in 1924 was registered as Ukrainian. My grandfather always saw himself as Russian and Ukrainian at the same time, he was very proud of his Ukrainian roots, spoke and read both languages. On his mother’s side one of his cousins joined the OUN UPA and fought the Soviets somewhere in the Western Ukraine and got killed in 1948. My grandfather fought in the Red Army during all the war and was very proud of it. Interestingly enough, his family name is also found among some Volga Tatars. I am really glad that he did not live enough to witness the current situation. I think he would have gone completely bitter and would have lost his faith in the human goodness that he has managed to keep until his death in 1996.

    My grandmother was from Russian glubinka in Penza Oblast’. She was a typical Russian, from a typical Russian small village. But according to what she told a few kilometers away there were Tatar villages and somewhere near Mordvinian villages as well. People in these different villages were aware of their differences and did not marry each other in the Tsarist times, but they lived in peace and traded with each other. In the early 1930ies these villages got collectivized and starved in exactly the same manner as Ukrainians starved during their Hlodomor. My grandmother always thought that my grandfather’s family was different from her family. The culture and attitude were different. To her my grandfather was Ukrainian. But they lived their lives together and raised their children and had I think a happy home despite the war and all the difficulties. They are buried side by side now and I always visit their grave when I go to Russia.

    This ability to get along and live together and even see each other as family is badly damaged today. But maybe it is not lost completely. One can hope at least that peace might return to Donbass. In this war everyone is losing. In this opposition of Russian and Ukrainian nationalism everyone is wrong. This leads nowhere.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Ano4

    She contradicts herself in emphasizing her being a Russian:

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/why-america-feels-like-a-post-soviet-state?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=onsite-share&utm_brand=the-new-yorker&utm_social-type=earned

    , @Philip Owen
    @Ano4

    But in modern Russia when one looks for a flat to rent one sees "Russian family only".

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN

  99. @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I dont understand how Kazakhs can have so low IQ. Their genetics are majority Mongolian, mixed with some ancient Indo-European blood, and Mongolians have very high East Asian level of IQ. Also all Kazakhs and Kyrgyz I have met have been almost as bright as Mongols and Buryats, and very peaceful folk. I even know one Kazakh-Buryat family from St. Petesburg. The father is devout Muslim and mother Buddhist, and their daughter was raised Buddhist! And the Muslim father was totally okay with it!

    For the those who dont know much about them I must say that Kazakhs and Kyrgyz are as a people on a totally different level than Uzbeks and Tajiks. Shamanistic influence on their Islam is very strong, even nowadays old people in remote areas of Kyrgyzstan call Allah by the name of Tengri. And there is some Buddhist residual left in Islam practiced among Kyrgyz. They still tie colorful cloth pieces in trees in holy places, although they are just pieces of cloth without written mantras or wind horses. It is truly a great loss that Chagatai Khanate converted to Islam in mid 14th Century. Eastern areas of their realm were still Buddhist and Tengrist so they did not have same demographical pressure as Ilkhans and Golden Horde.

    Replies: @Ano4

    mixed with some ancient Indo-European blood,

    The Kazakh are highly admixed.

    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/kazakhs.html#:~:text=A%20high%20genetic%20diversity%20was,population%20(h%3D0.996).&text=It%20was%20found%20out%20that,of%20Asian%20origin%20(11.9%25).

    But overall they are probably 60% Eastern Eurasian and 40% Western Eurasian.

    • Replies: @Haruto Rat
    @Ano4


    Kazakhs
     
    There are considerable differences among zhuzs and tribes:

    http://vigg.ru/fileadmin/user_upload/Dissertatsionnyy_sovet/Kandidatskie_dissertatsii/2017/Zhabagin/dissertacionnaja_rabota_Zhabagin_MK.pdf (148 pages, 22 tables, 35 figures)

    Replies: @Haruto Rat

  100. @AP
    @Miro23

    Russians may be smarter than Italians but they may also be even more culturally prone to corruption. Overall I'd expect an eventual Mediterranean-industrialized (so more like Italy than Portugal) level of development and prosperity from Russia. The Slavs with the highest chance of eventually achieving German or Swedish levels would be Czechs and Poles.

    Replies: @justiana, @Anatoly Karlin, @Blinky Bill

    [MORE]


    😂😂😂😂

  101. AP says:
    @Maïkl Makfaïl
    @AP

    If.

    At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It’s not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes.



    ===> An estimation coming out straight out of your ass and a prediction based on absolutely nothing, of course, except your rage against Russia.


    That’s not going to draw everyone into its orbit.

    ===>The funniest thing is that even if Russia only manages to achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity it would still mean a GDP larger than Japan's since Italian pc gdp and Japanese are the same. And Russia has already a more vibrant IT tech scene than all the rusty European countries which will matter more than anything else in the 21st century and a GDP bigger than Germany . And Ukraine is still pretty much into Russia's orbit from an economic point of view , despite hundreds of sanctions , Russia is still Ukraine number 1 investor and trade partner.



    By the end of 2013 Russia the gap in terms of wealth between Ukraine and Russia was the greatest it had ever been. And yet Ukraine turned away from Russia. Since Maidan, Ukraine has already started to narrow the gap with Russia. By early 2020 it had turned the clock back to 2011 in terms of per capita GDP PPP discrepancy between the two countries.


    ===> Ukraine narrowing the gap with Russia since Maidan ? 🤣🤣🤣 With what ? Its gdp falling almost without interruption , almost totally destroyed industry or its Gabon's levels of labour productivity ? Its not the Russians that are fleeing their country to Ukraine but the other way around.





    When was this? Most recent poll by KIIS was in February 2020:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=927&page=5

    Pretty stable 51% for, 26% against, rest don’t care. So if this were a referendum EU wins 66.5% to 35.5%. EU wins in the West, Center and South and only loses in the East of the country.

    Support for NATO at 44%, an increase from 40% in February 2019 though not as high as 48% when the war in the East was hotter. Opposition to NATO at 31% so NATO would win a referendum. Regionally, NATO wins in the West and Center but loses in the South and East.



    ==> https://www.courrierinternational.com/article/geopolitique-les-raisons-du-desamour-croissant-des-ukrainiens-envers-loccident Ukraine starting to realize it has no place in the West will only reinforce the pro Russia trends.


    Wishful thinking. It would simply bring destruction, resistance, more destruction, and hatred. As anywhere else under similar circumstances.

    ===> The destruction of banderist cucks and terrorists is long overdue indeed. We can do with the hate of some iodine-deficient yokels from the west of the country . As for their capacity of "resistance", we have already seen that when we crushed banderists in no time at the end of WW II and forced them to crawl to Cacada , screaming and squealing . Ukrainian nationalists never knew how to fight. Even their nazi idols were laughing their untermensch performance.

    Replies: @AP

    “At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It’s not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes.”

    ===> An estimation coming out straight out of your ass and a prediction based on absolutely nothing

    Russian average PISA score in Math is 488, Italy’s is 487. I don’t think Russia is less corrupt than Italy. So comparable human capital on average, and both are rather corrupt. Russia still has room for growth from the Soviet disaster but one can assume eventual convergence with Italy. Avtovaz will be another FIAT, etc.

    except your rage against Russia.

    Projection. Only one full of rage is you.

    Ukraine narrowing the gap with Russia since Maidan ? 🤣🤣🤣 With what ? Its gdp falling almost without interruption

    What a believer in fairytales you are. Ukraine has had solid uninterrupted GDP growth since the last quarter of 2015, until COVID-19. That is over four years.

    After an economic crash in 2014-2015 Ukraine recovered, by the end of 2019 surpassing the pre-Maidan levels and achieving its highest per capita GDP in constant dollars since the 2008 crash:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.KD?locations=UA-RU

    Relative to Russia, Ukraine erased several years of comparative decline; by the end of 2019 Ukraine’s per capita GDP compared to Russia’s was back to where it had been in 2011.

    The effects are magnified when you consider that the current Ukraine is without Donbas, that had accounted for 20% of Ukraine’s GDP despite having only 10% of Ukraine’s population. That is, to compare apples to apples (Ukraine minus Donbas before Maidan to Ukraine minus Donbas after Maidan) you would have to subtract about 10% from Ukraine’s figures before 2014 in order to compare the per capita GDPs of the regions currently under Kiev’s authority to pre-2014. So growth has been substantial, indeed.

    Ukrainian wages now surpass those in Belarus (though not when you take into account cost of living):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    What other Sovok fairytales do you believe? Ukraine was the richest USSR republic? Maidan was done for the cookies? LOL.

    almost totally destroyed industry

    Industry has seen only modest decline. Loss of industry in the east has been compensated for by new factories being built in the west and center.

    ==> https://www.courrierinternational.com/article/geopolitique-les-raisons-du-desamour-croissant-des-ukrainiens-envers-loccident Ukraine starting to realize it has no place in the West will only reinforce the pro Russia trends.

    I see. Article combines results from two surveys with likely different methodologies. So take the claim of significant decline in EU support with a big grain of salt. The KIIS tracking sample I linked to shows stability through February.

    The destruction of banderist cucks and terrorists is long overdue indeed. We can do with the hate of some iodine-deficient yokels from the west of the country . As for their capacity of “resistance”, we have already seen that when we crushed banderists in no time at the end of WW II

    Insurgency in western Ukraine lasted until the early 1950s. Soviets lost more personnel (according to Soviet archives) fighting against Banderists than Russia did in either Chechen wars. UPA/Banderists managed to kill the Soviet general, Vatutin, in charge of the Ukrainian Front and the Polish defense minister. These Banderist accomplishments were against the Soviet regime at the height of its power, not the shambling Yeltsin-era and early Putin-era Russia that the Chechens were fortunate enough to go up against.

    You are just an empty, non-thinking regurgitator of dumb Soviet memes.

    and forced them to crawl to Cacada

    Where they got rich like others lucky and smart enough to escape, while you Sovoks languished in poverty.

    • Replies: @Maïkl Makfaïl
    @AP

    Russian average PISA score in Math is 488, Italy’s is 487. I don’t think Russia is less corrupt than Italy. So comparable human capital on average, and both are rather corrupt. Russia still has room for growth from the Soviet disaster but one can assume eventual convergence with Italy. Avtovaz will be another FIAT, etc.


    ===> well Italy doesnt have the biggest amount of Fields medals winners in the world , the best programmers and Russian children score extremely well on all the other tests than PISA, which can of course be improved. And Italy doesnt build 5generation military planes, space stations , cruise missiles , satellites and search engines. And the value of future cars will pretty much depend on the AI software , and Russia is one of the most advanced countries in autonomous cars tech.


    What a believer in fairytales you are. Ukraine has had solid uninterrupted GDP growth since the last quarter of 2015, until COVID-19. That is over four years.


    ===> ridiculously small growth in comparison of what Ukraine needs and what Ukraine has lost in 2014-2015, based on agriculture. Ukraine is basically becoming a big Galicia , with a population only smart enough to pick berries in woods. Science and industry are for the evil dirty russkies after all.

    After an economic crash in 2014-2015 Ukraine recovered, by the end of 2019 surpassing the pre-Maidan levels and achieving its highest per capita GDP in constant dollars since the 2008 crash:

    ===> i suppose its not hard to be good at gdp per capita when your country is loosing population at the same speed as Ukraine. 😅

    Relative to Russia, Ukraine erased several years of comparative decline; by the end of 2019 Ukraine’s per capita GDP compared to Russia’s was back to where it had been in 2011.


    ===> this is how our crazy ukrainian vatnik sees Ukraine " erasing several years of comparative decline " with Russia. Better laugh about it. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/GDP_PPP_per_capita_CIS.svg/897px-GDP_PPP_per_capita_CIS.svg.png


    The effects are magnified when you consider that the current Ukraine is without Donbas, 

    ===> be ready to magnify the effects even more , since people of Novorossia will not endure the banderist circus much longer.

    Ukrainian wages now surpass those in Belarus (though not when you take into account cost of living):


    ===> another strong take from crazy khokhol that happens to be dubious.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


    What other Sovok fairytales do you believe? Ukraine was the richest USSR republic? Maidan was done for the cookies? LOL.


    ===> i dont know if Ukraine was the richest USSR republic although i suspect it must be true given how many people say it , at least in terms of national GDP and scientific prowess. The evolution of the Ukrainian demography before and after is very telling in any cases .

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Population_of_Ukraine_from_1950_(untitled).svg

    Industry has seen only modest decline. Loss of industry in the east has been compensated for by new factories being built in the west and center.


    ===> literally everybody except apparently you knows that Ukraine's industrial decline has been horrible since 2014, that it has never recovered from it even with some sporadic and weak" good years " after that, that those new factories will never compensate for all those losses( speaking about fairytales ! ) , that Ukraine is loosing its only high tech companies inherited from the Soviet Union, and that cutting itself from Russia is basically dooming Ukraine to be a raw material economy for the west, something that Russia has managed to avoid.

    Insurgency in western Ukraine lasted until the early 1950s. Soviets lost more personnel (according to Soviet archives)fighting against Banderists than Russia did in either Chechen wars. UPA/Banderists managed to kill the Soviet general, Vatutin, in charge of the Ukrainian Front and the Polish defense minister. These Banderist accomplishments were against the Soviet regime at the height of its power, not the shambling Yeltsin-era and early Putin-era Russia that the Chechens were fortunate enough to go up against.


    ===> cool banderist propaganda story .Sadly they seemed to be a little bit out of shape in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo in any case.


    You are just an empty, non-thinking regurgitator of dumb Soviet memes.


    ===> Id rather be a soviet regurgitator( even though being from Ivano Frankovsk i have heard at least as much banderist propaganda in my life than soviet) than some low IQ svidomite taliban parroting the propaganda of the dumbest state in the world , a fourth world barbaric fake country with no accomplishment of its
    own , which historiography consists in teaching to children that Ukraine has a 5000 years long history and that Portuguese are its descendants , a cuck country that worships nazi collaborators of a nazi regime that considered that as subhumans and wanted to exterminate them all.


    Where they got rich like others lucky and smart enough to escape, while you Sovoks languished in poverty


    ===> they will have the fabulous opportunity to return to their successfull careers in toilet cleaning in Canada once we will deal with them .

    Replies: @Philip Owen, @AP

  102. I had a Belarusian coworker for about a year and when I asked her about language she insisted that Russian is more widespread than Belarusian and it was mostly nationalists that stuck to Belarusian. To clarify she was from Belarus and lives there again since her husband was only in the US for work. How successful have the zmagarists actually been?

  103. @Belarusian Dude
    Interesting post, though I have some objections/notes to make.

    For one, when you touch on Gomel being Russified and other parts of Russian language in Belarus I can only smirk. While it is true that in some places the amount of people that speak Russian on paper is about 100%, the Russian many speak would be nigh unidentifiable to many people living in Moscow. I live in the far Southern fringe of inhabitable Gomel and most people here speak a variation upon what people might call Polesian.

    On the topic of Lithuanianization vs Polonification I think you missed the rather obvious fact that they're different language groups. Even if related Baltic and Slavic are nevertheless very different in both syntax and vocabulary. I've tried to learn Lithuanian before and frankly I must note that geographic proximity of our peoples actually only makes there an abundance of what language learners call "false-friends."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_friend
    Literary Belarusian is a bit of a sham language I will concur however. There are two main variants, the narkomowka and Tarashkevitsa. Both are hilarious mish-mashes of local dialects, the former more accurate to Belarus as a whole while the latter is more accurate to the centre and East of the country (interestingly enough this is the preferred variant of the zmagars) made much earlier by a hardcore bolshevik when the USSR had a far smaller Belarusian territory to sample linguistics off of. The only positive thing I have to say about tarashkevitsa is that the only word for jew is "zhyd", or "kike" when translated to English. Alas, the faggotry of the state department insured that this was soon remedied with "habrey" as a more PC variant by the diasporoid government in exile.

    Fun fact, Boris Kowerda was a Russian nationalist (or more accurately a monarchist) that in his exile was driven to assassinate soviet ambassadors. He spoke Belarusian out of necessity way before the Soviet Union implemented korenization policies and worked as a an editor for Belarusian language newspapers so I am very, very skeptical of the whole "Belarusian language usage is a product of Stalinist korenization".

    The disconnect between peasantry and nobility is also worthwhile to note here I suppose. The nobles integrated very well with the Lithuanians converting to Catholicism, taking on Lithuanian names and family names. They were happy to go with the Greco-Catholic heresy. The commonfolk, the proles and such were overwhelmingly apathetic to their Lithuanian overlords. Whenever Russians showed up to Belarusian locales after conquering them from the PLC the locales showed up welcoming them similar to say, French welcoming American GIs showing up in nazi occupied France, and funnily enough they only demands they ever offered were things like a chance to massacre all the jews of the locale previously protected by the Poles and Lithuanians. In the many uprisings of the PLC, people from the area of modern day Belarus were the most fierce and the Ruthenians of modern day Belarus were described as the most savage; looters, murderers, etc. This is probably not just propaganda and likely was fairly true. After all given these rebels were almost entirely peasants as opposed to the South of what we now know as Ukraine that had many noble defectors, the uprisings in Belarus were quite literally legions of what today we know as gopniks and football hooligans.

    I'll have to for myself stick with a stance in the golden mean of the zmagar and Russian nationalist interpretations of what Belarus is and Belarusians are.

    Replies: @utu, @Belarusian Dude, @Dmitry

    word for jew is “zhyd”, or “kike” when translated to English

    Because in languages developed from the old slavyansky language, “zhyd” had always been the neutral (or standard) word for Jews, except in recent Russian and Ukrainian languages. It is just an old word for “Jew” for more than thousand years and was used in religious commentary.

    It developed a hostile meaning in Russian language from the 19th century, because Jews then complained and wanted to be called “Hebrews”, and Russian language and Russian government had accepted this. So after being called “Hebrews” was preferred by Jews in the Russian language, and actually the authorities has agreed to adopt it, then the old referent became the hostile terminology for Jews.

    In non-Russian speaking slavic countries, “zhyd” is a normal word for Jews – the Jewish museum in Poland is called “Muzeum Historii Zydow Polskich”.
    https://www.polin.pl/pl/o-muzeum

    Or in Prague, Jewish museum is – “Zidovske Muzeum” https://www.jewishmuseum.cz/

    A pattern of contemporary misanthropic words for nationalities, being the normal words of previous generations, is a typical one. And then a certain kind of modern journalists can search for the “xenophobia” in 19th century authors, from the use of old ethnonyms in their texts.

    One of the most arbitrary are recent English language attitudes to ethnonym of word “negro” (Latin) vs “black” (saxon). In English, there is usually a Latin and a saxon word for most things. (Saxon word has a slightly more informal connotation than the Latin one, but there is normally Latin words are not considered more hostile than saxon.)

    In Latin languages (and also other languages like Russian, etc) “negro”, of course, has not more hostile connotation than would be adoption of a saxon word “black”.

    Yet as a result of historical arbitrary contingency, you could nowadays probably be beaten in Harlem, for using Latin word for colour absorbing material, instead of the “correct” saxon one. Here is something about the philosophy of languages – the meaning of words are at the foundation arbitrary historical accidents, and the practical significance: knowledge of local tribal sensitivities – mistake in choosing which is the neutral, and which is misanthropic word, for nationalities, can probably result in being lynched by residents of Harlem or Detroit.

    Another of the more surreal ones is that in English language “Polacy” – it is viewed as the most racist word for Poles. So perhaps it could be possible to be beaten, or at least not invited for dinner, by gastarbaiters in Polish districts of London, if they interpreted hostile intention when you used the same words that in Polish language describes their own nationality.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    Because in languages developed from the old slavyansky language, “zhyd” had always been the neutral (or standard) word for Jews, except in recent Russian and Ukrainian languages. It is just an old word for “Jew” for more than thousand years and was used in religious commentary.

    It developed a hostile meaning in Russian language from the 19th century, because Jews then complained and wanted to be called “Hebrews”, and Russian language and Russian government had accepted this. So after being called “Hebrews” was preferred by Jews in the Russian language, and actually the authorities has agreed to adopt it, then the old referent became the hostile terminology for Jews.
     
    Correct, and the new usage of Yevrei rather than Zhyd was brought to Ukraine by the Soviets. Often when anti-Soviet Ukrainians used the original pre-Soviet term Zhyd they are not using it as a slur but it gets mistranslated that way.
    , @EldnahYm
    @Dmitry


    Another of the more surreal ones is that in English language “Polacy” – it is viewed as the most racist word for Poles. So perhaps it could be possible to be beaten, or at least not invited for dinner, by gastarbaiters in Polish districts of London, if they interpreted hostile intention when you used the same words that in Polish language describes their own nationality.
     
    Do people in the U.K. use the term "Polacy?" I've never heard of it. I have only heard Pole or Polack.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  104. AP says:
    @Dmitry
    @Belarusian Dude


    word for jew is “zhyd”, or “kike” when translated to English
     
    Because in languages developed from the old slavyansky language, "zhyd" had always been the neutral (or standard) word for Jews, except in recent Russian and Ukrainian languages. It is just an old word for "Jew" for more than thousand years and was used in religious commentary.

    It developed a hostile meaning in Russian language from the 19th century, because Jews then complained and wanted to be called "Hebrews", and Russian language and Russian government had accepted this. So after being called "Hebrews" was preferred by Jews in the Russian language, and actually the authorities has agreed to adopt it, then the old referent became the hostile terminology for Jews.

    In non-Russian speaking slavic countries, "zhyd" is a normal word for Jews - the Jewish museum in Poland is called "Muzeum Historii Zydow Polskich".
    https://www.polin.pl/pl/o-muzeum

    Or in Prague, Jewish museum is - "Zidovske Muzeum" https://www.jewishmuseum.cz/

    -

    A pattern of contemporary misanthropic words for nationalities, being the normal words of previous generations, is a typical one. And then a certain kind of modern journalists can search for the "xenophobia" in 19th century authors, from the use of old ethnonyms in their texts.

    One of the most arbitrary are recent English language attitudes to ethnonym of word "negro" (Latin) vs "black" (saxon). In English, there is usually a Latin and a saxon word for most things. (Saxon word has a slightly more informal connotation than the Latin one, but there is normally Latin words are not considered more hostile than saxon.)

    In Latin languages (and also other languages like Russian, etc) "negro", of course, has not more hostile connotation than would be adoption of a saxon word "black".

    Yet as a result of historical arbitrary contingency, you could nowadays probably be beaten in Harlem, for using Latin word for colour absorbing material, instead of the "correct" saxon one. Here is something about the philosophy of languages - the meaning of words are at the foundation arbitrary historical accidents, and the practical significance: knowledge of local tribal sensitivities - mistake in choosing which is the neutral, and which is misanthropic word, for nationalities, can probably result in being lynched by residents of Harlem or Detroit.

    Another of the more surreal ones is that in English language "Polacy" - it is viewed as the most racist word for Poles. So perhaps it could be possible to be beaten, or at least not invited for dinner, by gastarbaiters in Polish districts of London, if they interpreted hostile intention when you used the same words that in Polish language describes their own nationality.

    Replies: @AP, @EldnahYm

    Because in languages developed from the old slavyansky language, “zhyd” had always been the neutral (or standard) word for Jews, except in recent Russian and Ukrainian languages. It is just an old word for “Jew” for more than thousand years and was used in religious commentary.

    It developed a hostile meaning in Russian language from the 19th century, because Jews then complained and wanted to be called “Hebrews”, and Russian language and Russian government had accepted this. So after being called “Hebrews” was preferred by Jews in the Russian language, and actually the authorities has agreed to adopt it, then the old referent became the hostile terminology for Jews.

    Correct, and the new usage of Yevrei rather than Zhyd was brought to Ukraine by the Soviets. Often when anti-Soviet Ukrainians used the original pre-Soviet term Zhyd they are not using it as a slur but it gets mistranslated that way.

  105. @Belarusian Dude
    @Belarusian Dude

    Latching onto this comment, Belarusian identity struggled to develop properly unlikea Ukrainian one because it lacked a loyal elite. Ukraine had Shevchenko, Khmelnytsky, Gogol, Mikluha-Maklai, the Skoropadsky family and yes even Bandera. Our entire smart fraction either dissolved into Lithuanian, Polish or Russian societies unlike the less cosmopolitan Ukrainians who had many post medieval heroes. This is why unfortunately Belarusian poetry for example is mediocre at best, our greatest of writers like Kupala only switching to Belarusian after finding no success in either Russian or Polish. With the language and culture only having any real existence among oft illiterate proles it is no surprise its easy for our neighbours to ridicule our culture. Zmagars have had to resort to claiming men like Tadeusz Kosciuzko and other people who literally never spole a work of Belarusian in their lives for themselves which makes the whole affair more pathetic.

    That said, I'm perfectly fine with Belarusianism staying in the common people. This might of course reek of swine right and anti intellectualism but I don't really care.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    There are two important considerations to take into account when comparing the more successful evolution of Ukrainian nationalism and statehood than what occurred in Belarus. Ukrainian nationalism is really an amalgamation of the different historical processes between Western Ukraine, specifically Galicia (often referred to as the Piedmont of Ukraine) and Eastern Ukraine, the last bastion of Cossack patriotism developed by the progeny of the Cossack elite. Ukraine is a much larger country than Belorus, including a much larger population too. As AP wrote above:

    The native cultures [Belarusian and Ukrainian] are closer to each other than either is to Russian. However for various reasons Belarusians have “Russified” to a large extent, so this similarity is irrelevant. It just means that long ago there was “raw material” with which some sort of Ukrainian-Belarussian union could have been constructed (or Belarusians could have been fused with Ukrainians) but the time for that passed many generations ago. IIRC Khmelytsky was struggling with Moscow over control of Belarus but failed to secure it under his authority. That probably would have been the chance:

    The “various reasons” why the Ukrainian project was more successful than the Belarusian one was that Belarus never underwent the radical Westernization that occured in Western Ukraine during several centuries of Austrian Habsburg tutelage, and that Belarus was only involved at the fringes with the Hetmanate autonomy witnessed in Ukraine. There were, however, many common cultural and political figures that both Belarusians and Ukrainians hold in high esteem from a long earlier period. Have you read this very interesting article? What do you think?
    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2048&context=ccr

  106. @Mikhail
    @AnonFromTN

    You might get a kick out of this. At a state park near me, this guy who appeared to be with his family and no one else, had a Ukrainian flag planted in the ground. Talk about dedication.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    At a state park near me, this guy who appeared to be with his family and no one else, had a Ukrainian flag planted in the ground. Talk about dedication.

    Yet another proof that White Christians have no right to make fun of ISIS, Taliban, or KSA crazies.
    The funniest thing is that this is also Down syndrome flag. Or maybe it isn’t funny, just fitting.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Making fun of the Ukrainian flag and disparaging some Ukrainian folks enjoying its prominence (even in the US) is par for you, Professor Jannisar. Do you also get steamed when you see cars adorned with prominent bumper stickers showing some ethnic Italian, Swedish or Jewish pride too? How about you Mickey?

    https://i3.cpcache.com/merchandise/90_300x300_Front_Color-White.jpg?Size=NA&AttributeValue=NA&c=True&region={%22name%22:%22FrontCenter%22,%22width%22:5.298993,%22height%22:3.5,%22alignment%22:%22MiddleCenter%22,%22orientation%22:0,%22dpi%22:200,%22crop_x%22:0,%22crop_y%22:0,%22crop_h%22:800,%22crop_w%22:1000,%22scale%22:0,%22template%22:{%22id%22:104874740,%22params%22:{}}}%20&Filters=[{%22name%22:%22background%22,%22value%22:%22ddddde%22,%22sequence%22:2}]

    Replies: @Mikhail

  107. @AnonFromTN
    @Mikhail


    At a state park near me, this guy who appeared to be with his family and no one else, had a Ukrainian flag planted in the ground. Talk about dedication.
     
    Yet another proof that White Christians have no right to make fun of ISIS, Taliban, or KSA crazies.
    The funniest thing is that this is also Down syndrome flag. Or maybe it isn't funny, just fitting.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Making fun of the Ukrainian flag and disparaging some Ukrainian folks enjoying its prominence (even in the US) is par for you, Professor Jannisar. Do you also get steamed when you see cars adorned with prominent bumper stickers showing some ethnic Italian, Swedish or Jewish pride too? How about you Mickey?

    https://i3.cpcache.com/merchandise/90_300x300_Front_Color-White.jpg?Size=NA&AttributeValue=NA&c=True&region={%22name%22:%22FrontCenter%22,%22width%22:5.298993,%22height%22:3.5,%22alignment%22:%22MiddleCenter%22,%22orientation%22:0,%22dpi%22:200,%22crop_x%22:0,%22crop_y%22:0,%22crop_h%22:800,%22crop_w%22:1000,%22scale%22:0,%22template%22:{%22id%22:104874740,%22params%22:{}}}%20&Filters=[{%22name%22:%22background%22,%22value%22:%22ddddde%22,%22sequence%22:2}]

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    My immediate family never planted a Russian flag on the beach or at the park, when we went in numbers ranging anywhere between 2-5. I can see doing such for a big cultural event involving a noticeably greater number.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  108. Making fun of the Ukrainian flag and disparaging some Ukrainian folks enjoying its prominence (even in the US) is par for you, Professor Jannisar. Do you also get steamed when you see cars adorned with prominent bumper stickers showing some ethnic Italian, Swedish or Jewish pride too? How about you Mickey?

  109. @Ano4
    @AnonFromTN

    I think I can relate to your situation to some extent. The integration of different ethnic groups was deepening under the Soviet regime. I have read somewhere that even for Soviet Jews a couple of more generations of USSR would have meant a near complete assimilation. Maybe that was one of the reasons why Perestroika was rushed along.

    This is something the majority of people who did not live in the final decades of USSR, 70ies and 80ies, just before the Perestroika do not understand. I remember how in my childhood Moscow building, in our 9 floors staircase we had Russian, Belarusian, Armenian, Jewish, Ukrainian and Tatar living together. In a single staircase. And there were 10 of them in our building.

    Before 1988 I have never really realized that there were any real differences between ethnicities, in my school class there were an Azeri and an Armenian boys who were best friends. Of course that was Moscow, the capital of the Soviet Realm, but my experiences in Leningrad were similar. In Tallinn, that I have visited in 1989 it was completely different, a kind of Apartheid with Estonians more or less segregated from the other Soviet citizens, but even there I met mixed couples.

    My grandfather was born somewhere between Debaltsevo and Enakievo in 1916, his father origins were from Southern Russia (probably Kursk or Kuban), his mother's origins were mixed Ruthenian from Belarus and Polish Orthodox from Ukraine (I frankly am not sure if all Orthodox Poles are not of Ruthenian descent). He was registered by the authorities as Russian at birth, but his younger brother born in 1924 was registered as Ukrainian. My grandfather always saw himself as Russian and Ukrainian at the same time, he was very proud of his Ukrainian roots, spoke and read both languages. On his mother's side one of his cousins joined the OUN UPA and fought the Soviets somewhere in the Western Ukraine and got killed in 1948. My grandfather fought in the Red Army during all the war and was very proud of it. Interestingly enough, his family name is also found among some Volga Tatars. I am really glad that he did not live enough to witness the current situation. I think he would have gone completely bitter and would have lost his faith in the human goodness that he has managed to keep until his death in 1996.

    My grandmother was from Russian glubinka in Penza Oblast'. She was a typical Russian, from a typical Russian small village. But according to what she told a few kilometers away there were Tatar villages and somewhere near Mordvinian villages as well. People in these different villages were aware of their differences and did not marry each other in the Tsarist times, but they lived in peace and traded with each other. In the early 1930ies these villages got collectivized and starved in exactly the same manner as Ukrainians starved during their Hlodomor. My grandmother always thought that my grandfather's family was different from her family. The culture and attitude were different. To her my grandfather was Ukrainian. But they lived their lives together and raised their children and had I think a happy home despite the war and all the difficulties. They are buried side by side now and I always visit their grave when I go to Russia.

    This ability to get along and live together and even see each other as family is badly damaged today. But maybe it is not lost completely. One can hope at least that peace might return to Donbass. In this war everyone is losing. In this opposition of Russian and Ukrainian nationalism everyone is wrong. This leads nowhere.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Philip Owen

  110. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Making fun of the Ukrainian flag and disparaging some Ukrainian folks enjoying its prominence (even in the US) is par for you, Professor Jannisar. Do you also get steamed when you see cars adorned with prominent bumper stickers showing some ethnic Italian, Swedish or Jewish pride too? How about you Mickey?

    https://i3.cpcache.com/merchandise/90_300x300_Front_Color-White.jpg?Size=NA&AttributeValue=NA&c=True&region={%22name%22:%22FrontCenter%22,%22width%22:5.298993,%22height%22:3.5,%22alignment%22:%22MiddleCenter%22,%22orientation%22:0,%22dpi%22:200,%22crop_x%22:0,%22crop_y%22:0,%22crop_h%22:800,%22crop_w%22:1000,%22scale%22:0,%22template%22:{%22id%22:104874740,%22params%22:{}}}%20&Filters=[{%22name%22:%22background%22,%22value%22:%22ddddde%22,%22sequence%22:2}]

    Replies: @Mikhail

    My immediate family never planted a Russian flag on the beach or at the park, when we went in numbers ranging anywhere between 2-5. I can see doing such for a big cultural event involving a noticeably greater number.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    Look like some folks like to keep that "big cultural event" feeling closer to their heart than others. :-)

    Actually, I take much greater umbrage at the Professor's comment that I do at yours.I actually smiled when I read yours, and thought that this family must have recently got off of the boat.

  111. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    There's been some understandably well publicized research about the rejuvenating effects of young blood transfusions, the taller claims of rejuvenation haven't panned out, but that it does have some interesting positive effects on health seems to be well established. We know that prewar people had more accurate ideas about some elements of science than we do today - things that come to mind include eugenics; light therapy; the keto diet as a method of weight loss (strongly advocated for by German-Jewish nutritionists, incidentally). It would not be incredible if they also believed young blood was best, this being a folk stereotype since at least Elizabeth Bathory coupled with the commonsense (and correct) intuition that stereotypes are most often accurate.

    Anyhow, while I can't say if donor concentration camps are a true story, exaggerated, or made up, I'll note that the Belarusians don't claim the children were killed afterwards - just that many of them did not survive.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Elizabeth Bathory

    I’d just mention that there are some historians in Hungary who claim that she was sentenced on trumped up charges and was basically innocent. She wrote several letters which show social responsibility, concern for the well-being of her serfs (who were numerous, as she was perhaps the richest Hungarian aristocrat at the time), and there are some documents referring to a hospital operated in her castle. It’s possible that the charges of black magic (?) and satanic practices might’ve originated in some medical practices there – after all, we’re talking about early 17th century medicine.

    What is clear is that both the Habsburg government and the palatine of Hungary at the time, Thurzó (another rich Hungarian aristocrat and the guardian of her children after the death of her husband) were set to gain from her imprisonments. The evidence is basically all coming from witnesses under torture, who were quickly executed afterwards. There are no records of statements by the relatives of the putative victims. So while she might have been a serial killer, there’s no real evidence of this.

    However it was, stories about her bathing in the blood of her victims or drinking their blood are probably later embellishments, since there’s no contemporary source for any of this. Even if lots of her maid servants were killed, or tortured to death, it’s questionable if she used their blood for anything.

    Re: the children dying. I think blood transfusion donors are normally required to be healthy adults, because losing so much blood is life threatening for children and even unhealthy adults.

    • Agree: Denis
    • Thanks: Anatoly Karlin
  112. @Mr. XYZ
    @AP


    Adding Belarus and Ukraine mean another 47 million people or so. Add Kazakhstan with 18 million (about 20% Russian, but Kazakhs are rather Russified and trouble-free, almost like Tatars) and you have a country of over 200 million people.

    So it isn’t simply pettiness and insecurity (though there is an element of that), but also the wish for great power status. Russia alone can be no more than a dominant regional power, more formidable but in the same general league as countries like Germany or Japan. It would be more than that with those additional people.
     
    Radical idea, but maybe if Russians want great power status for their country they can simply have more babies? I mean, even with its current borders and population, there is nothing that would, in theory, prevent Russians from having larger families and thus causing their population to increase naturally. Israel manages to do it even right now in spite of both being overpopulated and being a developed country, after all. Why, why exactly can't Russia do the same thing considering that it has much more Lebensraum than Israel has?

    By the way, considering that many Muslim countries are not exactly pleasant places, I really don't want to see the elimination of one of the few Muslim countries (specifically Kazakhstan) that are actually pretty decent. I mean, other than the Central Asian countries, Turkey, and perhaps Bosnia, I'm unsure that there are any Muslim countries that I would be particularly eager to visit. Maybe Malaysia and Indonesia? I'm not sure. But anyway, a lot of Muslim countries are dumps (either economically or in terms of political attitudes) and thus Kazakhstan needs to maintain its independence in order to serve as a positive inspiration for these other Muslim countries to reform and to clean up their act.

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @reiner Tor

    I would add that if Russians will be unable to reproduce, then they are not going to be a great power anyway.

  113. @Anatoly Karlin
    @utu

    This post is classic small nation cope. While hobbitdom does have its charms, there are a couple of problems with it:

    (1) There are certain achievements that are forever beyond their rich simply on account of economies on scale. E.g., Poland literally "cannot into space."

    They also cannot be autarkic in either economics or culture (heroic counter-examples like Best Korea aside), leaving them at the mercy of vicissitudes in the world's real top dogs.

    (2) The mask of moral superiority it pretends to also happens to be fake and gay. As soon as these small nations somehow acquire real power, they tend to become quite vicious little predators themselves.

    Replies: @Anon 2, @Exile, @reiner Tor

    That’s true. Yet we still want to keep existing.

    • Replies: @szopen
    @reiner Tor

    The problem is that while Czechs, Slovaks and Lithuanians know they are small nations, we in Poland don't. We are too large to be small and we are too small to be large. With 36-40 millions of people and being 6th most populous country in EU, with being 8th economy in EU we are in awkward position. Poland is as populous as all south slavic states together; more populous than Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Belarus and Lithuania put together - plus we have history of being great nation. It's not easy being small when you are almost four time as large as Czechia.

    Replies: @AP

  114. @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    My immediate family never planted a Russian flag on the beach or at the park, when we went in numbers ranging anywhere between 2-5. I can see doing such for a big cultural event involving a noticeably greater number.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Look like some folks like to keep that “big cultural event” feeling closer to their heart than others. 🙂

    Actually, I take much greater umbrage at the Professor’s comment that I do at yours.I actually smiled when I read yours, and thought that this family must have recently got off of the boat.

  115. @Dmitry
    @Belarusian Dude


    word for jew is “zhyd”, or “kike” when translated to English
     
    Because in languages developed from the old slavyansky language, "zhyd" had always been the neutral (or standard) word for Jews, except in recent Russian and Ukrainian languages. It is just an old word for "Jew" for more than thousand years and was used in religious commentary.

    It developed a hostile meaning in Russian language from the 19th century, because Jews then complained and wanted to be called "Hebrews", and Russian language and Russian government had accepted this. So after being called "Hebrews" was preferred by Jews in the Russian language, and actually the authorities has agreed to adopt it, then the old referent became the hostile terminology for Jews.

    In non-Russian speaking slavic countries, "zhyd" is a normal word for Jews - the Jewish museum in Poland is called "Muzeum Historii Zydow Polskich".
    https://www.polin.pl/pl/o-muzeum

    Or in Prague, Jewish museum is - "Zidovske Muzeum" https://www.jewishmuseum.cz/

    -

    A pattern of contemporary misanthropic words for nationalities, being the normal words of previous generations, is a typical one. And then a certain kind of modern journalists can search for the "xenophobia" in 19th century authors, from the use of old ethnonyms in their texts.

    One of the most arbitrary are recent English language attitudes to ethnonym of word "negro" (Latin) vs "black" (saxon). In English, there is usually a Latin and a saxon word for most things. (Saxon word has a slightly more informal connotation than the Latin one, but there is normally Latin words are not considered more hostile than saxon.)

    In Latin languages (and also other languages like Russian, etc) "negro", of course, has not more hostile connotation than would be adoption of a saxon word "black".

    Yet as a result of historical arbitrary contingency, you could nowadays probably be beaten in Harlem, for using Latin word for colour absorbing material, instead of the "correct" saxon one. Here is something about the philosophy of languages - the meaning of words are at the foundation arbitrary historical accidents, and the practical significance: knowledge of local tribal sensitivities - mistake in choosing which is the neutral, and which is misanthropic word, for nationalities, can probably result in being lynched by residents of Harlem or Detroit.

    Another of the more surreal ones is that in English language "Polacy" - it is viewed as the most racist word for Poles. So perhaps it could be possible to be beaten, or at least not invited for dinner, by gastarbaiters in Polish districts of London, if they interpreted hostile intention when you used the same words that in Polish language describes their own nationality.

    Replies: @AP, @EldnahYm

    Another of the more surreal ones is that in English language “Polacy” – it is viewed as the most racist word for Poles. So perhaps it could be possible to be beaten, or at least not invited for dinner, by gastarbaiters in Polish districts of London, if they interpreted hostile intention when you used the same words that in Polish language describes their own nationality.

    Do people in the U.K. use the term “Polacy?” I’ve never heard of it. I have only heard Pole or Polack.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @EldnahYm

    Polack is what they call themselves. But it’s pejorative in English, isn’t it?

    A good analogy is Russkiy. In Hungarian, the word “orosz” means Russian. But you can also say “ruszki,” except it’s offensive. But that’s what Russians call themselves! Still, a Hungarian calling them this will generally have a low opinion of Russians.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  116. All the demented fools praising this filth by Karlin should be ashamed. If I am eating a meal and it is 70% cooked excellently and 30% rat poison – then the meal obviously classifies as garbage. It doesn’t deserve praise just for being long in preparation time. Exact same analogy applies to this .

    Forget Karlin’s drivel – I will make it clear why Belarus is not experiencing the same as Banderastan:

    Ukraine has rabid, psychopathic, lowlife, CIA-backed diaspora…Belarus does not

    again..

    Ukraine has rabid, psychopathic, lowlife, CIA-backed diaspora…BELARUS DOES NOT

    UKRAINE HAS RABID,PSYCHOPATHIC, LOWLIFE CIA-BACKED DIASPORA….BELARUS DOES NOT!!

    That is a perfect summary of why one has Maidan and other pseudo-nationalist garbage and the other country does not ( and is far more superior run and wealthier, being much better compared to Ukraine than West Germany was to GDR)

    You even see the exact same pattern of nutjob, Nazi diaspora from US driving the agenda and sitting in the main positions in other anti-Russian ex-Soviet states….why be too thick to realise it?

    Instead of banning me ( again) does anybody think this blog post has any credibility when it omits the lack of western-backed oligarchs in Belarus compared to Ukraine, which has a huge effect on protests on NGO’s and any “cultural” contributions?

    I wouldn’t normally be that angry with Karlin, particularly with another ban probably imminent, but LOL ” I would like to thank AP for providing my arguments”……followed by the nutj*b pseudo-ukrop troll saying “Thank you for the excellent introduction to Belarus”….makes this farce even more shameful than normal.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Gerard-Mandela

    I'll let it stand as a monument to your idiocy (even if there is already quite the surfeit of them on my blog).

    An influential and highly anti-Russian Ukrainian diaspora is actually a rather good point, though ultimately a consequence of the historical/cultural factors discussed therein (ask oneself, why did the Ukrainian diaspora become a distinct community in the first place, while the Belorussian one, to the extent it existed, almost entirely melded into the Russian one).

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

  117. @EldnahYm
    @Dmitry


    Another of the more surreal ones is that in English language “Polacy” – it is viewed as the most racist word for Poles. So perhaps it could be possible to be beaten, or at least not invited for dinner, by gastarbaiters in Polish districts of London, if they interpreted hostile intention when you used the same words that in Polish language describes their own nationality.
     
    Do people in the U.K. use the term "Polacy?" I've never heard of it. I have only heard Pole or Polack.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Polack is what they call themselves. But it’s pejorative in English, isn’t it?

    A good analogy is Russkiy. In Hungarian, the word “orosz” means Russian. But you can also say “ruszki,” except it’s offensive. But that’s what Russians call themselves! Still, a Hungarian calling them this will generally have a low opinion of Russians.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @reiner Tor

    Kind of like the Vancouver Canucks.

  118. @reiner Tor
    @EldnahYm

    Polack is what they call themselves. But it’s pejorative in English, isn’t it?

    A good analogy is Russkiy. In Hungarian, the word “orosz” means Russian. But you can also say “ruszki,” except it’s offensive. But that’s what Russians call themselves! Still, a Hungarian calling them this will generally have a low opinion of Russians.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Kind of like the Vancouver Canucks.

  119. @AP
    @Maïkl Makfaïl


    "At best, Russia would achieve Italian per capita level of prosperity. It’s not going to be a Germany or Japan or USA. It will be Italy with 150 million people, much more real estate, and nukes."

    ===> An estimation coming out straight out of your ass and a prediction based on absolutely nothing
     

    Russian average PISA score in Math is 488, Italy's is 487. I don't think Russia is less corrupt than Italy. So comparable human capital on average, and both are rather corrupt. Russia still has room for growth from the Soviet disaster but one can assume eventual convergence with Italy. Avtovaz will be another FIAT, etc.

    except your rage against Russia.
     
    Projection. Only one full of rage is you.

    Ukraine narrowing the gap with Russia since Maidan ? 🤣🤣🤣 With what ? Its gdp falling almost without interruption
     
    What a believer in fairytales you are. Ukraine has had solid uninterrupted GDP growth since the last quarter of 2015, until COVID-19. That is over four years.

    After an economic crash in 2014-2015 Ukraine recovered, by the end of 2019 surpassing the pre-Maidan levels and achieving its highest per capita GDP in constant dollars since the 2008 crash:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.KD?locations=UA-RU

    Relative to Russia, Ukraine erased several years of comparative decline; by the end of 2019 Ukraine’s per capita GDP compared to Russia’s was back to where it had been in 2011.

    The effects are magnified when you consider that the current Ukraine is without Donbas, that had accounted for 20% of Ukraine’s GDP despite having only 10% of Ukraine’s population. That is, to compare apples to apples (Ukraine minus Donbas before Maidan to Ukraine minus Donbas after Maidan) you would have to subtract about 10% from Ukraine's figures before 2014 in order to compare the per capita GDPs of the regions currently under Kiev’s authority to pre-2014. So growth has been substantial, indeed.

    Ukrainian wages now surpass those in Belarus (though not when you take into account cost of living):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    What other Sovok fairytales do you believe? Ukraine was the richest USSR republic? Maidan was done for the cookies? LOL.


    almost totally destroyed industry
     
    Industry has seen only modest decline. Loss of industry in the east has been compensated for by new factories being built in the west and center.

    ==> https://www.courrierinternational.com/article/geopolitique-les-raisons-du-desamour-croissant-des-ukrainiens-envers-loccident Ukraine starting to realize it has no place in the West will only reinforce the pro Russia trends.
     
    I see. Article combines results from two surveys with likely different methodologies. So take the claim of significant decline in EU support with a big grain of salt. The KIIS tracking sample I linked to shows stability through February.

    The destruction of banderist cucks and terrorists is long overdue indeed. We can do with the hate of some iodine-deficient yokels from the west of the country . As for their capacity of “resistance”, we have already seen that when we crushed banderists in no time at the end of WW II
     
    Insurgency in western Ukraine lasted until the early 1950s. Soviets lost more personnel (according to Soviet archives) fighting against Banderists than Russia did in either Chechen wars. UPA/Banderists managed to kill the Soviet general, Vatutin, in charge of the Ukrainian Front and the Polish defense minister. These Banderist accomplishments were against the Soviet regime at the height of its power, not the shambling Yeltsin-era and early Putin-era Russia that the Chechens were fortunate enough to go up against.

    You are just an empty, non-thinking regurgitator of dumb Soviet memes.


    and forced them to crawl to Cacada
     
    Where they got rich like others lucky and smart enough to escape, while you Sovoks languished in poverty.

    Replies: @Maïkl Makfaïl

    Russian average PISA score in Math is 488, Italy’s is 487. I don’t think Russia is less corrupt than Italy. So comparable human capital on average, and both are rather corrupt. Russia still has room for growth from the Soviet disaster but one can assume eventual convergence with Italy. Avtovaz will be another FIAT, etc.

    ===> well Italy doesnt have the biggest amount of Fields medals winners in the world , the best programmers and Russian children score extremely well on all the other tests than PISA, which can of course be improved. And Italy doesnt build 5generation military planes, space stations , cruise missiles , satellites and search engines. And the value of future cars will pretty much depend on the AI software , and Russia is one of the most advanced countries in autonomous cars tech.

    What a believer in fairytales you are. Ukraine has had solid uninterrupted GDP growth since the last quarter of 2015, until COVID-19. That is over four years.

    ===> ridiculously small growth in comparison of what Ukraine needs and what Ukraine has lost in 2014-2015, based on agriculture. Ukraine is basically becoming a big Galicia , with a population only smart enough to pick berries in woods. Science and industry are for the evil dirty russkies after all.

    After an economic crash in 2014-2015 Ukraine recovered, by the end of 2019 surpassing the pre-Maidan levels and achieving its highest per capita GDP in constant dollars since the 2008 crash:

    ===> i suppose its not hard to be good at gdp per capita when your country is loosing population at the same speed as Ukraine. 😅

    Relative to Russia, Ukraine erased several years of comparative decline; by the end of 2019 Ukraine’s per capita GDP compared to Russia’s was back to where it had been in 2011.

    ===> this is how our crazy ukrainian vatnik sees Ukraine ” erasing several years of comparative decline ” with Russia. Better laugh about it.

    The effects are magnified when you consider that the current Ukraine is without Donbas, 

    ===> be ready to magnify the effects even more , since people of Novorossia will not endure the banderist circus much longer.

    Ukrainian wages now surpass those in Belarus (though not when you take into account cost of living):

    ===> another strong take from crazy khokhol that happens to be dubious.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    What other Sovok fairytales do you believe? Ukraine was the richest USSR republic? Maidan was done for the cookies? LOL.

    ===> i dont know if Ukraine was the richest USSR republic although i suspect it must be true given how many people say it , at least in terms of national GDP and scientific prowess. The evolution of the Ukrainian demography before and after is very telling in any cases .

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Population_of_Ukraine_from_1950_(untitled).svg

    Industry has seen only modest decline. Loss of industry in the east has been compensated for by new factories being built in the west and center.

    ===> literally everybody except apparently you knows that Ukraine’s industrial decline has been horrible since 2014, that it has never recovered from it even with some sporadic and weak” good years ” after that, that those new factories will never compensate for all those losses( speaking about fairytales ! ) , that Ukraine is loosing its only high tech companies inherited from the Soviet Union, and that cutting itself from Russia is basically dooming Ukraine to be a raw material economy for the west, something that Russia has managed to avoid.

    Insurgency in western Ukraine lasted until the early 1950s. Soviets lost more personnel (according to Soviet archives)fighting against Banderists than Russia did in either Chechen wars. UPA/Banderists managed to kill the Soviet general, Vatutin, in charge of the Ukrainian Front and the Polish defense minister. These Banderist accomplishments were against the Soviet regime at the height of its power, not the shambling Yeltsin-era and early Putin-era Russia that the Chechens were fortunate enough to go up against.

    ===> cool banderist propaganda story .Sadly they seemed to be a little bit out of shape in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo in any case.

    You are just an empty, non-thinking regurgitator of dumb Soviet memes.

    ===> Id rather be a soviet regurgitator( even though being from Ivano Frankovsk i have heard at least as much banderist propaganda in my life than soviet) than some low IQ svidomite taliban parroting the propaganda of the dumbest state in the world , a fourth world barbaric fake country with no accomplishment of its
    own , which historiography consists in teaching to children that Ukraine has a 5000 years long history and that Portuguese are its descendants , a cuck country that worships nazi collaborators of a nazi regime that considered that as subhumans and wanted to exterminate them all.

    Where they got rich like others lucky and smart enough to escape, while you Sovoks languished in poverty

    ===> they will have the fabulous opportunity to return to their successfull careers in toilet cleaning in Canada once we will deal with them .

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    @Maïkl Makfaïl

    In what universe are coal and steel industries and a few ammunition plants worth hanging onto? The precision mechanical engineering was not in Donetsk or Gorlivka. The planes, helicopter engines and rockets were made elsewhere. Losing coalminers is losing a problem.

    , @AP
    @Maïkl Makfaïl

    Are you too dumb to figure out blockquote?


    "Russian average PISA score in Math is 488, Italy’s is 487. I don’t think Russia is less corrupt than Italy. So comparable human capital on average, and both are rather corrupt. Russia still has room for growth from the Soviet disaster but one can assume eventual convergence with Italy. Avtovaz will be another FIAT, etc."

    ===> well Italy doesnt have the biggest amount of Fields medals winners in the world , the best programmers
     

    It's about priorities. However many of the "Russian" Fields medal winners were Jews, and almost all of them were outside Russia. An Italian got a Fields medal in 2018, a Russian (from Geneva, not Russia) last won one in 2010.

    and Russian children score extremely well on all the other tests than PISA
     
    Russia's estimated average IQ is one point higher than Italy's:

    https://jakubmarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/iq-europe.jpg

    (Credit to jakubmarian for map)


    "What a believer in fairytales you are. Ukraine has had solid uninterrupted GDP growth since the last quarter of 2015, until COVID-19. That is over four years."

    ===> ridiculously small growth in comparison of what Ukraine needs and what Ukraine has lost in 2014-2015,
     

    Let's review what you wrote and compare it to reality:

    You wrote: "Its gdp falling almost without interruption"

    Reality, Ukraine per capita GDP growth rate:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD.ZG?locations=UA

    2016: +2.65%
    2017: +2.92%
    2018: +3.93%
    2019: +3.83%

    Per capita GDP in constant 2017 dollars was $12,552 in 2013 (before Maidan) and $12,810 in 2019.

    Moreover, the 2013 per capita GDP in non-Donbas Maidan (Ukraine's current borders) was about 10% less than the figure above (Donbas contributed 20% to GDP with only 10% of Ukraine's population). So the increase in per capita GDP PP for the territory currently part of Ukraine was from around $11,300 in 2013 to $12,800 in 2019 in constant dollars.


    based on agriculture
     
    This was a part of it. There has also been massive expansion in IT outsourcing, especially in Kiev in Lviv.

    i suppose its not hard to be good at gdp per capita when your country is loosing population at the same speed as Ukraine
     
    Irrelevant because they don't produce in the country when they leave.

    Relative to Russia, Ukraine erased several years of comparative decline; by the end of 2019 Ukraine’s per capita GDP compared to Russia’s was back to where it had been in 2011.

    ===> this is how our crazy ukrainian vatnik sees Ukraine ” erasing several years of comparative decline ” with Russia.
     

    Your chart ends at 2018. I already posted figures to 2019 from Worldbank:

    It turns out I was too pessimistic about Ukraine.

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=UA-RU

    In 2019 Ukraine had 45.7% of Russia's GDP per capita PPP.
    In 2013, before Maidan, Ukraine had 41% of Russia's GDP per capita PPP.

    In 2010 Ukraine had 40.2% of Russia's GDP per capita PPP.

    In 2008 Ukraine had 45% of Russia's GDP per capita PPP.

    But in 2007 Ukraine had 49% of Russia's GDP per capita PPP.

    So actually after Maidan, by 2019 Ukraine had erased about a decade's worth of decline compared to Russia and was back to its relative position in 2008.


    "Ukrainian wages now surpass those in Belarus (though not when you take into account cost of living):"

    ===> another strong take from crazy khokhol that happens to be dubious.
     

    Info is sourced:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage#European_and_transcontinental_countries_by_monthly_average_wage

    Wages in Belarus have been falling and in Ukraine they have been rising.


    "What other Sovok fairytales do you believe? Ukraine was the richest USSR republic? Maidan was done for the cookies? LOL."

    ===> i dont know if Ukraine was the richest USSR republic although i suspect it must be true given how many people say it
     

    You "guess." You "think." It all amounts to nothing.

    In terms of per capita GDP PPP Ukraine was at $7,3000 and Russia at $8,000 in 1990:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=UA-RU

    In terms of nominal per capita GDP Ukraine's was less than half that of Russia's ($1,570 vs. $3,492):

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=UA-RU


    ===> literally everybody except apparently you knows that Ukraine’s industrial decline has been horrible since 2014
     
    Translation: echo chamber of dumb, ignorant Sovoks believe the same thing. Dumb people believe them.

    In reality, prior to Covid Ukraine's industrial production has seen mild decline, much of which can be attributed to fall in steel prices:

    https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/industrial-production#:~:text=Industrial%20Production%20in%20Ukraine%20averaged,percent%20in%20January%20of%202009.&text=source%3A%20State%20Statistics%20Service%20of%20Ukraine

    Eastern factories have lost orders and closed, but new factories have been built in the west and center. This hasn't been quite enough to compensate for the losses, but it has made the overall losses in manufacturing to be modest in scale. "Industrial collapse" is a fairytale for naive dummies.

    Since 2014, over 150 new plants and factories were launched in Ukraine, 83 of them with participation of foreign investors. Some 58 more are under construction.

    Article from 2018, wages and scale have increased since then:

    https://www.ft.com/content/27f943ac-91b4-11e8-9609-3d3b945e78cf

    Employing some 3,200 people, the Zhytomyr assembly line is Kromberg & Schubert’s second in Ukraine, where dozens of global companies in the labour-intensive business have aggressively expanded in past years.

    Attracted by low monthly salaries of $300 to $500, global auto wiring companies including Leoni, Fujikura and Yazaki have shifted production to Ukraine from central and eastern European countries where costs have increased.

    Oleksandr Shavarskyi, commercial plant manager at the Zhytomyr plant — whose senior management is almost entirely Ukrainian — estimates the boom time for parts manufacturers has created “from 100,000 to 200,000” jobs. These include production line workers, subcontractors, and associated services. “In our business, all of the players are present here . . . dozens of them,” he adds.

    In the town of Vinnytsia, south of Zhytomyr, regional officials tour a brand-new factory initially employing 1,100 people to produce commercial refrigerators for international sellers of everything from ice cream to beverages.


    that Ukraine is loosing its only high tech companies inherited from the Soviet Union
     
    You fail again.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/victoriacollins/2019/10/01/the-ukrainian-tech-industry-and-the-launch-of-the-ukraine-it-creative-fund/#7691aec24031

    The Ukrainian Tech Industry Is Thriving

    Ukraine’s developers have helped to build Ford’s in-car infotainment systems, Reuters’ award-winning photography app, Nokia’s customer retail experience, and Deutsche Bank’s Risk Management System to name just a few.

    The IT industry has grown from 0.06% of GDP to 3.3%, more than 50 times, between 2013 and 2018.


    "Insurgency in western Ukraine lasted until the early 1950s. Soviets lost more personnel (according to Soviet archives)fighting against Banderists than Russia did in either Chechen wars. UPA/Banderists managed to kill the Soviet general, Vatutin, in charge of the Ukrainian Front and the Polish defense minister. These Banderist accomplishments were against the Soviet regime at the height of its power, not the shambling Yeltsin-era and early Putin-era Russia that the Chechens were fortunate enough to go up against."

    ===> cool banderist propaganda story
     

    Nah, I am not you. You are the one who regurgitates propaganda. Figures for Soviet losses are from Soviet archives. It is widely known that Vatutin died from an UPA ambush. Do Russian politicians engage in banderist propaganda? LOL.

    "A Just Russia, a Russian political party seen as loyal to the Kremlin, ratcheted up tensions this week by stating that Vatutin's daughter had requested that her father's body be repatriated to Russia after authorities in Kyiv personally informed her of their plans.

    Party leader Sergei Mironov was quick to throw his weight behind the reburial initiative.

    General Vatutin died after being attacked by nationalists, Banderovtsy from the so-called Ukrainian Insurgent Army," Mironov wrote in the press release. "Today, their heirs and successors are in power in Ukraine. And they don't hide their hatred for heroes of the Great Patriotic War such as Nikolai Vatutin.""

    It is well known that Polish Communist defense minister, Karol Świerczewski, died from UPA ambush.


    Sadly they seemed to be a little bit out of shape in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo in any case.
     
    Ukraine had basically no army in those days, the country was free for the taking. But despite all that Russian assistance the best the New Russian forces could do was seize parts of Donbas and hold them. Grandiose wishes to take Odessa, Kharkiv, etc. went nowhere, the locals didn't support it. Ukraine didn't even need an army to hold those territories.

    ===> Id rather be a soviet regurgitator( even though being from Ivano Frankovsk i have heard at least as much banderist propaganda in my life than soviet)
     
    LOL. You must have been quite the bitter loser over there, hence your hatred. So you were speaking of yourself when writing about iodine deficiency, being good for nothing but cleaning toilets, etc.?

    ===> they will have the fabulous opportunity to return to their successfull careers in toilet cleaning in Canada once we will deal with them .
     
    Ukrainians in Canada and the USA tend to work as physicians or engineers and have incomes well above average for the general North American population. Which makes them a lot richer than those left behind in the USSR.
  120. @Gerard-Mandela
    All the demented fools praising this filth by Karlin should be ashamed. If I am eating a meal and it is 70% cooked excellently and 30% rat poison - then the meal obviously classifies as garbage. It doesn't deserve praise just for being long in preparation time. Exact same analogy applies to this .

    Forget Karlin's drivel - I will make it clear why Belarus is not experiencing the same as Banderastan:

    Ukraine has rabid, psychopathic, lowlife, CIA-backed diaspora...Belarus does not

    again..

    Ukraine has rabid, psychopathic, lowlife, CIA-backed diaspora...BELARUS DOES NOT

    UKRAINE HAS RABID,PSYCHOPATHIC, LOWLIFE CIA-BACKED DIASPORA....BELARUS DOES NOT!!

    That is a perfect summary of why one has Maidan and other pseudo-nationalist garbage and the other country does not ( and is far more superior run and wealthier, being much better compared to Ukraine than West Germany was to GDR)

    You even see the exact same pattern of nutjob, Nazi diaspora from US driving the agenda and sitting in the main positions in other anti-Russian ex-Soviet states....why be too thick to realise it?

    Instead of banning me ( again) does anybody think this blog post has any credibility when it omits the lack of western-backed oligarchs in Belarus compared to Ukraine, which has a huge effect on protests on NGO's and any "cultural" contributions?

    I wouldn't normally be that angry with Karlin, particularly with another ban probably imminent, but LOL " I would like to thank AP for providing my arguments"......followed by the nutj*b pseudo-ukrop troll saying "Thank you for the excellent introduction to Belarus"....makes this farce even more shameful than normal.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    I’ll let it stand as a monument to your idiocy (even if there is already quite the surfeit of them on my blog).

    An influential and highly anti-Russian Ukrainian diaspora is actually a rather good point, though ultimately a consequence of the historical/cultural factors discussed therein (ask oneself, why did the Ukrainian diaspora become a distinct community in the first place, while the Belorussian one, to the extent it existed, almost entirely melded into the Russian one).

    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
    @Anatoly Karlin


    ask oneself, why did the Ukrainian diaspora become a distinct community in the first place, while the Belorussian one, to the extent it existed, almost entirely melded into the Russian one
     
    Quite simple.....

    1.there is no "distinct community" of Ukrainian diaspora. There is post-ww2 psychopaths smuggled out of the country by the CIA and MI6 in the 1940's and 50s, who lived in closed communities and are nothing other than subhumans who represent all of the "Ukraine" movement.

    You find it strange how politically "sophisticated"Americans were too dumb to realise the lies and true implications when the gutter-whore US Ambassador to Ukraine ,Marie Yovanovitch, said at Trump's impeachment :"My family escaped Communists, then they escaped Nazis" ?

    2.19th century emigration to US is entirely Russian world, viewed as Russian world and were called Russian by Americans then( just like "Ukrainians" in land now called Ukraine were still called "Russky" by Poles in the 16th and 17th centuries), their own flavour of Russianism is far less different than Californian jazz is from New York or New Orleans jazz - but just like they are still all American jazz, these immigrants identified as Russian world people. Canada immigration in 19th century is bunch of stateless morons from Galicia and Romania, i.e those with no connection to land of "historical" Ukraine....not to mention should have zero connection to any anti-Russian movement, or anti-Soviet or "Golodomor" blabla etcetera. Even then, main part of Canada ukrops are from Banderetard/OUN era

    3. as for the post-Soviet emigration into the west , apart from those on Soros/Gosdep sponsored degrees and other faggot courses...there is absolutely no "Ukrainian separate from Russian" people - just highly skilled, hard-working people trying to get on with their lifes, often speaking Russian, not english , at home and not associating themselves with this Banderetard community...though often acting as one with Russian expat or Soviet expat and having no problem with being called Russian

    4.Ask yourself, where is "Kyiv "or "Kyiff" in this "distinct community" for the last 150 years? LOL
    As I have said before, where is the town or village in US or Canada named after a "Ukrainian" place that isn't entirely Russian world and with the english translation of Russian spelling?Everyother nationality that settled in the New world before WW2 has a settlement named after a place of their homeland......all that is, except fake ukropia. Why would that be, dummy?

    5.Where is the Ukrop nationalist "intellectual" from the 19th , pre-Banderetard America. None at all

    6. You conflate ukrainian liberasts with Ukrainian nationalists. Most intelligentsia in Kiev are Russian speaking, standard liberast scum. All liberasts in Ukraine or Russia are superficially nationalists with an addiction to sucking c*ck of anti-Russian jewish liberasts and actually, extremely eager to jump on any "human rights abuse" or "cultural rights" train of any supposedly suffering kavkaz or other ethnic group in Russia as a way to slander the state...it's it as superficial as it possible - just as superficial as like Israeli-Vietnamese ( because of the young boys) troll Ano4 .In practise neither in Ukraine or Russia are actually nationalists - though for expediency during Euromaidan they gave the impression they had converged into "nationalists". You can see with people like Sentsov - they aren't ukrop nationalists in practise - he is just a fool who seems to have an Ekho Moskva view of Russia, not one based on interpersonal relationship.

    7. You can keep on pretending you didnt read it when I wrote that Ukrop has just released an 1000 gryvnia note featuring a guy:
    Born in Russia
    Died in Russia
    Educated in Russia
    Married a Russian,
    was Russian
    Kid a famous Russian historian

    8. On a separate note. Top 5 newborn boy and girl names in Moscow and Kiev are exactly the same. "Separate people" ? Ridiculous

    Replies: @AP, @Art Deco

  121. @Ano4
    @AnonFromTN

    I think I can relate to your situation to some extent. The integration of different ethnic groups was deepening under the Soviet regime. I have read somewhere that even for Soviet Jews a couple of more generations of USSR would have meant a near complete assimilation. Maybe that was one of the reasons why Perestroika was rushed along.

    This is something the majority of people who did not live in the final decades of USSR, 70ies and 80ies, just before the Perestroika do not understand. I remember how in my childhood Moscow building, in our 9 floors staircase we had Russian, Belarusian, Armenian, Jewish, Ukrainian and Tatar living together. In a single staircase. And there were 10 of them in our building.

    Before 1988 I have never really realized that there were any real differences between ethnicities, in my school class there were an Azeri and an Armenian boys who were best friends. Of course that was Moscow, the capital of the Soviet Realm, but my experiences in Leningrad were similar. In Tallinn, that I have visited in 1989 it was completely different, a kind of Apartheid with Estonians more or less segregated from the other Soviet citizens, but even there I met mixed couples.

    My grandfather was born somewhere between Debaltsevo and Enakievo in 1916, his father origins were from Southern Russia (probably Kursk or Kuban), his mother's origins were mixed Ruthenian from Belarus and Polish Orthodox from Ukraine (I frankly am not sure if all Orthodox Poles are not of Ruthenian descent). He was registered by the authorities as Russian at birth, but his younger brother born in 1924 was registered as Ukrainian. My grandfather always saw himself as Russian and Ukrainian at the same time, he was very proud of his Ukrainian roots, spoke and read both languages. On his mother's side one of his cousins joined the OUN UPA and fought the Soviets somewhere in the Western Ukraine and got killed in 1948. My grandfather fought in the Red Army during all the war and was very proud of it. Interestingly enough, his family name is also found among some Volga Tatars. I am really glad that he did not live enough to witness the current situation. I think he would have gone completely bitter and would have lost his faith in the human goodness that he has managed to keep until his death in 1996.

    My grandmother was from Russian glubinka in Penza Oblast'. She was a typical Russian, from a typical Russian small village. But according to what she told a few kilometers away there were Tatar villages and somewhere near Mordvinian villages as well. People in these different villages were aware of their differences and did not marry each other in the Tsarist times, but they lived in peace and traded with each other. In the early 1930ies these villages got collectivized and starved in exactly the same manner as Ukrainians starved during their Hlodomor. My grandmother always thought that my grandfather's family was different from her family. The culture and attitude were different. To her my grandfather was Ukrainian. But they lived their lives together and raised their children and had I think a happy home despite the war and all the difficulties. They are buried side by side now and I always visit their grave when I go to Russia.

    This ability to get along and live together and even see each other as family is badly damaged today. But maybe it is not lost completely. One can hope at least that peace might return to Donbass. In this war everyone is losing. In this opposition of Russian and Ukrainian nationalism everyone is wrong. This leads nowhere.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Philip Owen

    But in modern Russia when one looks for a flat to rent one sees “Russian family only”.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Philip Owen

    They usually write Slav only. They want to avoid their flat becoming a dorm for 30 Central Asian gastarbeiters. But yes, the nationalism appeared around 1988 and went growing stronger in all ethnic groups, Russians included. In 1996 Moscow center was as full of Skinheads as the outskirts were full of Gopniks and the markets throughout town of lower level Mafia thugs.

    It actually mellowed out a lot in recent years. People got killed for being of wrong ethnic group around the end of 90ies and beginning of 2000. Including ethnic Russians killed by Caucasian diaspora thugs simply for being Slav. Today's Moscow is way more peaceful, you can take a commuter train late by night or subway without necessarily watching who is getting in the same wagon and changing wagons if in wrong company.

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Philip Owen

    The ads actually say “Slavs only”. It means that they don’t want Central Asian gasters and North Caucuses people. I am pretty sure white people from any civilized place would be accepted.

  122. @Maïkl Makfaïl
    @AP

    Russian average PISA score in Math is 488, Italy’s is 487. I don’t think Russia is less corrupt than Italy. So comparable human capital on average, and both are rather corrupt. Russia still has room for growth from the Soviet disaster but one can assume eventual convergence with Italy. Avtovaz will be another FIAT, etc.


    ===> well Italy doesnt have the biggest amount of Fields medals winners in the world , the best programmers and Russian children score extremely well on all the other tests than PISA, which can of course be improved. And Italy doesnt build 5generation military planes, space stations , cruise missiles , satellites and search engines. And the value of future cars will pretty much depend on the AI software , and Russia is one of the most advanced countries in autonomous cars tech.


    What a believer in fairytales you are. Ukraine has had solid uninterrupted GDP growth since the last quarter of 2015, until COVID-19. That is over four years.


    ===> ridiculously small growth in comparison of what Ukraine needs and what Ukraine has lost in 2014-2015, based on agriculture. Ukraine is basically becoming a big Galicia , with a population only smart enough to pick berries in woods. Science and industry are for the evil dirty russkies after all.

    After an economic crash in 2014-2015 Ukraine recovered, by the end of 2019 surpassing the pre-Maidan levels and achieving its highest per capita GDP in constant dollars since the 2008 crash:

    ===> i suppose its not hard to be good at gdp per capita when your country is loosing population at the same speed as Ukraine. 😅

    Relative to Russia, Ukraine erased several years of comparative decline; by the end of 2019 Ukraine’s per capita GDP compared to Russia’s was back to where it had been in 2011.


    ===> this is how our crazy ukrainian vatnik sees Ukraine " erasing several years of comparative decline " with Russia. Better laugh about it. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/GDP_PPP_per_capita_CIS.svg/897px-GDP_PPP_per_capita_CIS.svg.png


    The effects are magnified when you consider that the current Ukraine is without Donbas, 

    ===> be ready to magnify the effects even more , since people of Novorossia will not endure the banderist circus much longer.

    Ukrainian wages now surpass those in Belarus (though not when you take into account cost of living):


    ===> another strong take from crazy khokhol that happens to be dubious.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


    What other Sovok fairytales do you believe? Ukraine was the richest USSR republic? Maidan was done for the cookies? LOL.


    ===> i dont know if Ukraine was the richest USSR republic although i suspect it must be true given how many people say it , at least in terms of national GDP and scientific prowess. The evolution of the Ukrainian demography before and after is very telling in any cases .

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Population_of_Ukraine_from_1950_(untitled).svg

    Industry has seen only modest decline. Loss of industry in the east has been compensated for by new factories being built in the west and center.


    ===> literally everybody except apparently you knows that Ukraine's industrial decline has been horrible since 2014, that it has never recovered from it even with some sporadic and weak" good years " after that, that those new factories will never compensate for all those losses( speaking about fairytales ! ) , that Ukraine is loosing its only high tech companies inherited from the Soviet Union, and that cutting itself from Russia is basically dooming Ukraine to be a raw material economy for the west, something that Russia has managed to avoid.

    Insurgency in western Ukraine lasted until the early 1950s. Soviets lost more personnel (according to Soviet archives)fighting against Banderists than Russia did in either Chechen wars. UPA/Banderists managed to kill the Soviet general, Vatutin, in charge of the Ukrainian Front and the Polish defense minister. These Banderist accomplishments were against the Soviet regime at the height of its power, not the shambling Yeltsin-era and early Putin-era Russia that the Chechens were fortunate enough to go up against.


    ===> cool banderist propaganda story .Sadly they seemed to be a little bit out of shape in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo in any case.


    You are just an empty, non-thinking regurgitator of dumb Soviet memes.


    ===> Id rather be a soviet regurgitator( even though being from Ivano Frankovsk i have heard at least as much banderist propaganda in my life than soviet) than some low IQ svidomite taliban parroting the propaganda of the dumbest state in the world , a fourth world barbaric fake country with no accomplishment of its
    own , which historiography consists in teaching to children that Ukraine has a 5000 years long history and that Portuguese are its descendants , a cuck country that worships nazi collaborators of a nazi regime that considered that as subhumans and wanted to exterminate them all.


    Where they got rich like others lucky and smart enough to escape, while you Sovoks languished in poverty


    ===> they will have the fabulous opportunity to return to their successfull careers in toilet cleaning in Canada once we will deal with them .

    Replies: @Philip Owen, @AP

    In what universe are coal and steel industries and a few ammunition plants worth hanging onto? The precision mechanical engineering was not in Donetsk or Gorlivka. The planes, helicopter engines and rockets were made elsewhere. Losing coalminers is losing a problem.

  123. @Philip Owen
    @Ano4

    But in modern Russia when one looks for a flat to rent one sees "Russian family only".

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN

    They usually write Slav only. They want to avoid their flat becoming a dorm for 30 Central Asian gastarbeiters. But yes, the nationalism appeared around 1988 and went growing stronger in all ethnic groups, Russians included. In 1996 Moscow center was as full of Skinheads as the outskirts were full of Gopniks and the markets throughout town of lower level Mafia thugs.

    It actually mellowed out a lot in recent years. People got killed for being of wrong ethnic group around the end of 90ies and beginning of 2000. Including ethnic Russians killed by Caucasian diaspora thugs simply for being Slav. Today’s Moscow is way more peaceful, you can take a commuter train late by night or subway without necessarily watching who is getting in the same wagon and changing wagons if in wrong company.

  124. @Philip Owen
    @Ano4

    But in modern Russia when one looks for a flat to rent one sees "Russian family only".

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN

    The ads actually say “Slavs only”. It means that they don’t want Central Asian gasters and North Caucuses people. I am pretty sure white people from any civilized place would be accepted.

  125. @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    in Ukraine the most “svidomy parts” (Galicia and Kiev) are also the most highly educated.
     
    If you ask people who were born and raised in Kiev, they say the opposite: the most svydomy are uncouth newcomer villagers from Western Ukraine, who they despise.

    Central Asians in general tend to be less troublesome than Caucasians
     
    Of course, Central Asians are less troublesome than many North Caucasians. They developed to the level of feudal society under their own power, whereas many North Caucasian people have essentially primeval tribal mentality. Remember, Alexander the Great conquered many nations but failed to conquer several primeval tribes in Central Asia at the time. Primeval people cannot be conquered, they can only be exterminated. That’s the reason for the different fate of North and South American Indians.

    Replies: @AP, @RadicalCenter

    Your ohservation about the futility of trying to conquer and rule or civilize primitive people is sensible. It should be applied to africans in the usa.

  126. AP says:
    @Maïkl Makfaïl
    @AP

    Russian average PISA score in Math is 488, Italy’s is 487. I don’t think Russia is less corrupt than Italy. So comparable human capital on average, and both are rather corrupt. Russia still has room for growth from the Soviet disaster but one can assume eventual convergence with Italy. Avtovaz will be another FIAT, etc.


    ===> well Italy doesnt have the biggest amount of Fields medals winners in the world , the best programmers and Russian children score extremely well on all the other tests than PISA, which can of course be improved. And Italy doesnt build 5generation military planes, space stations , cruise missiles , satellites and search engines. And the value of future cars will pretty much depend on the AI software , and Russia is one of the most advanced countries in autonomous cars tech.


    What a believer in fairytales you are. Ukraine has had solid uninterrupted GDP growth since the last quarter of 2015, until COVID-19. That is over four years.


    ===> ridiculously small growth in comparison of what Ukraine needs and what Ukraine has lost in 2014-2015, based on agriculture. Ukraine is basically becoming a big Galicia , with a population only smart enough to pick berries in woods. Science and industry are for the evil dirty russkies after all.

    After an economic crash in 2014-2015 Ukraine recovered, by the end of 2019 surpassing the pre-Maidan levels and achieving its highest per capita GDP in constant dollars since the 2008 crash:

    ===> i suppose its not hard to be good at gdp per capita when your country is loosing population at the same speed as Ukraine. 😅

    Relative to Russia, Ukraine erased several years of comparative decline; by the end of 2019 Ukraine’s per capita GDP compared to Russia’s was back to where it had been in 2011.


    ===> this is how our crazy ukrainian vatnik sees Ukraine " erasing several years of comparative decline " with Russia. Better laugh about it. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/GDP_PPP_per_capita_CIS.svg/897px-GDP_PPP_per_capita_CIS.svg.png


    The effects are magnified when you consider that the current Ukraine is without Donbas, 

    ===> be ready to magnify the effects even more , since people of Novorossia will not endure the banderist circus much longer.

    Ukrainian wages now surpass those in Belarus (though not when you take into account cost of living):


    ===> another strong take from crazy khokhol that happens to be dubious.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


    What other Sovok fairytales do you believe? Ukraine was the richest USSR republic? Maidan was done for the cookies? LOL.


    ===> i dont know if Ukraine was the richest USSR republic although i suspect it must be true given how many people say it , at least in terms of national GDP and scientific prowess. The evolution of the Ukrainian demography before and after is very telling in any cases .

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Population_of_Ukraine_from_1950_(untitled).svg

    Industry has seen only modest decline. Loss of industry in the east has been compensated for by new factories being built in the west and center.


    ===> literally everybody except apparently you knows that Ukraine's industrial decline has been horrible since 2014, that it has never recovered from it even with some sporadic and weak" good years " after that, that those new factories will never compensate for all those losses( speaking about fairytales ! ) , that Ukraine is loosing its only high tech companies inherited from the Soviet Union, and that cutting itself from Russia is basically dooming Ukraine to be a raw material economy for the west, something that Russia has managed to avoid.

    Insurgency in western Ukraine lasted until the early 1950s. Soviets lost more personnel (according to Soviet archives)fighting against Banderists than Russia did in either Chechen wars. UPA/Banderists managed to kill the Soviet general, Vatutin, in charge of the Ukrainian Front and the Polish defense minister. These Banderist accomplishments were against the Soviet regime at the height of its power, not the shambling Yeltsin-era and early Putin-era Russia that the Chechens were fortunate enough to go up against.


    ===> cool banderist propaganda story .Sadly they seemed to be a little bit out of shape in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo in any case.


    You are just an empty, non-thinking regurgitator of dumb Soviet memes.


    ===> Id rather be a soviet regurgitator( even though being from Ivano Frankovsk i have heard at least as much banderist propaganda in my life than soviet) than some low IQ svidomite taliban parroting the propaganda of the dumbest state in the world , a fourth world barbaric fake country with no accomplishment of its
    own , which historiography consists in teaching to children that Ukraine has a 5000 years long history and that Portuguese are its descendants , a cuck country that worships nazi collaborators of a nazi regime that considered that as subhumans and wanted to exterminate them all.


    Where they got rich like others lucky and smart enough to escape, while you Sovoks languished in poverty


    ===> they will have the fabulous opportunity to return to their successfull careers in toilet cleaning in Canada once we will deal with them .

    Replies: @Philip Owen, @AP

    Are you too dumb to figure out blockquote?

    “Russian average PISA score in Math is 488, Italy’s is 487. I don’t think Russia is less corrupt than Italy. So comparable human capital on average, and both are rather corrupt. Russia still has room for growth from the Soviet disaster but one can assume eventual convergence with Italy. Avtovaz will be another FIAT, etc.”

    ===> well Italy doesnt have the biggest amount of Fields medals winners in the world , the best programmers

    It’s about priorities. However many of the “Russian” Fields medal winners were Jews, and almost all of them were outside Russia. An Italian got a Fields medal in 2018, a Russian (from Geneva, not Russia) last won one in 2010.

    and Russian children score extremely well on all the other tests than PISA

    Russia’s estimated average IQ is one point higher than Italy’s:

    (Credit to jakubmarian for map)

    “What a believer in fairytales you are. Ukraine has had solid uninterrupted GDP growth since the last quarter of 2015, until COVID-19. That is over four years.”

    ===> ridiculously small growth in comparison of what Ukraine needs and what Ukraine has lost in 2014-2015,

    Let’s review what you wrote and compare it to reality:

    You wrote: “Its gdp falling almost without interruption”

    Reality, Ukraine per capita GDP growth rate:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD.ZG?locations=UA

    2016: +2.65%
    2017: +2.92%
    2018: +3.93%
    2019: +3.83%

    Per capita GDP in constant 2017 dollars was $12,552 in 2013 (before Maidan) and $12,810 in 2019.

    Moreover, the 2013 per capita GDP in non-Donbas Maidan (Ukraine’s current borders) was about 10% less than the figure above (Donbas contributed 20% to GDP with only 10% of Ukraine’s population). So the increase in per capita GDP PP for the territory currently part of Ukraine was from around $11,300 in 2013 to $12,800 in 2019 in constant dollars.

    based on agriculture

    This was a part of it. There has also been massive expansion in IT outsourcing, especially in Kiev in Lviv.

    i suppose its not hard to be good at gdp per capita when your country is loosing population at the same speed as Ukraine

    Irrelevant because they don’t produce in the country when they leave.

    Relative to Russia, Ukraine erased several years of comparative decline; by the end of 2019 Ukraine’s per capita GDP compared to Russia’s was back to where it had been in 2011.

    ===> this is how our crazy ukrainian vatnik sees Ukraine ” erasing several years of comparative decline ” with Russia.

    Your chart ends at 2018. I already posted figures to 2019 from Worldbank:

    It turns out I was too pessimistic about Ukraine.

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=UA-RU

    In 2019 Ukraine had 45.7% of Russia’s GDP per capita PPP.
    In 2013, before Maidan, Ukraine had 41% of Russia’s GDP per capita PPP.

    In 2010 Ukraine had 40.2% of Russia’s GDP per capita PPP.

    In 2008 Ukraine had 45% of Russia’s GDP per capita PPP.

    But in 2007 Ukraine had 49% of Russia’s GDP per capita PPP.

    So actually after Maidan, by 2019 Ukraine had erased about a decade’s worth of decline compared to Russia and was back to its relative position in 2008.

    “Ukrainian wages now surpass those in Belarus (though not when you take into account cost of living):”

    ===> another strong take from crazy khokhol that happens to be dubious.

    Info is sourced:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage#European_and_transcontinental_countries_by_monthly_average_wage

    Wages in Belarus have been falling and in Ukraine they have been rising.

    “What other Sovok fairytales do you believe? Ukraine was the richest USSR republic? Maidan was done for the cookies? LOL.”

    ===> i dont know if Ukraine was the richest USSR republic although i suspect it must be true given how many people say it

    You “guess.” You “think.” It all amounts to nothing.

    In terms of per capita GDP PPP Ukraine was at $7,3000 and Russia at $8,000 in 1990:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=UA-RU

    In terms of nominal per capita GDP Ukraine’s was less than half that of Russia’s ($1,570 vs. $3,492):

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=UA-RU

    ===> literally everybody except apparently you knows that Ukraine’s industrial decline has been horrible since 2014

    Translation: echo chamber of dumb, ignorant Sovoks believe the same thing. Dumb people believe them.

    In reality, prior to Covid Ukraine’s industrial production has seen mild decline, much of which can be attributed to fall in steel prices:

    https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/industrial-production#:~:text=Industrial%20Production%20in%20Ukraine%20averaged,percent%20in%20January%20of%202009.&text=source%3A%20State%20Statistics%20Service%20of%20Ukraine

    Eastern factories have lost orders and closed, but new factories have been built in the west and center. This hasn’t been quite enough to compensate for the losses, but it has made the overall losses in manufacturing to be modest in scale. “Industrial collapse” is a fairytale for naive dummies.

    Since 2014, over 150 new plants and factories were launched in Ukraine, 83 of them with participation of foreign investors. Some 58 more are under construction.

    Article from 2018, wages and scale have increased since then:

    https://www.ft.com/content/27f943ac-91b4-11e8-9609-3d3b945e78cf

    Employing some 3,200 people, the Zhytomyr assembly line is Kromberg & Schubert’s second in Ukraine, where dozens of global companies in the labour-intensive business have aggressively expanded in past years.

    Attracted by low monthly salaries of $300 to $500, global auto wiring companies including Leoni, Fujikura and Yazaki have shifted production to Ukraine from central and eastern European countries where costs have increased.

    Oleksandr Shavarskyi, commercial plant manager at the Zhytomyr plant — whose senior management is almost entirely Ukrainian — estimates the boom time for parts manufacturers has created “from 100,000 to 200,000” jobs. These include production line workers, subcontractors, and associated services. “In our business, all of the players are present here . . . dozens of them,” he adds.

    In the town of Vinnytsia, south of Zhytomyr, regional officials tour a brand-new factory initially employing 1,100 people to produce commercial refrigerators for international sellers of everything from ice cream to beverages.

    that Ukraine is loosing its only high tech companies inherited from the Soviet Union

    You fail again.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/victoriacollins/2019/10/01/the-ukrainian-tech-industry-and-the-launch-of-the-ukraine-it-creative-fund/#7691aec24031

    The Ukrainian Tech Industry Is Thriving

    Ukraine’s developers have helped to build Ford’s in-car infotainment systems, Reuters’ award-winning photography app, Nokia’s customer retail experience, and Deutsche Bank’s Risk Management System to name just a few.

    The IT industry has grown from 0.06% of GDP to 3.3%, more than 50 times, between 2013 and 2018.

    “Insurgency in western Ukraine lasted until the early 1950s. Soviets lost more personnel (according to Soviet archives)fighting against Banderists than Russia did in either Chechen wars. UPA/Banderists managed to kill the Soviet general, Vatutin, in charge of the Ukrainian Front and the Polish defense minister. These Banderist accomplishments were against the Soviet regime at the height of its power, not the shambling Yeltsin-era and early Putin-era Russia that the Chechens were fortunate enough to go up against.”

    ===> cool banderist propaganda story

    Nah, I am not you. You are the one who regurgitates propaganda. Figures for Soviet losses are from Soviet archives. It is widely known that Vatutin died from an UPA ambush. Do Russian politicians engage in banderist propaganda? LOL.

    “A Just Russia, a Russian political party seen as loyal to the Kremlin, ratcheted up tensions this week by stating that Vatutin’s daughter had requested that her father’s body be repatriated to Russia after authorities in Kyiv personally informed her of their plans.

    Party leader Sergei Mironov was quick to throw his weight behind the reburial initiative.

    General Vatutin died after being attacked by nationalists, Banderovtsy from the so-called Ukrainian Insurgent Army,” Mironov wrote in the press release. “Today, their heirs and successors are in power in Ukraine. And they don’t hide their hatred for heroes of the Great Patriotic War such as Nikolai Vatutin.””

    It is well known that Polish Communist defense minister, Karol Świerczewski, died from UPA ambush.

    Sadly they seemed to be a little bit out of shape in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo in any case.

    Ukraine had basically no army in those days, the country was free for the taking. But despite all that Russian assistance the best the New Russian forces could do was seize parts of Donbas and hold them. Grandiose wishes to take Odessa, Kharkiv, etc. went nowhere, the locals didn’t support it. Ukraine didn’t even need an army to hold those territories.

    ===> Id rather be a soviet regurgitator( even though being from Ivano Frankovsk i have heard at least as much banderist propaganda in my life than soviet)

    LOL. You must have been quite the bitter loser over there, hence your hatred. So you were speaking of yourself when writing about iodine deficiency, being good for nothing but cleaning toilets, etc.?

    ===> they will have the fabulous opportunity to return to their successfull careers in toilet cleaning in Canada once we will deal with them .

    Ukrainians in Canada and the USA tend to work as physicians or engineers and have incomes well above average for the general North American population. Which makes them a lot richer than those left behind in the USSR.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
  127. @reiner Tor
    @Anatoly Karlin

    That’s true. Yet we still want to keep existing.

    Replies: @szopen

    The problem is that while Czechs, Slovaks and Lithuanians know they are small nations, we in Poland don’t. We are too large to be small and we are too small to be large. With 36-40 millions of people and being 6th most populous country in EU, with being 8th economy in EU we are in awkward position. Poland is as populous as all south slavic states together; more populous than Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Belarus and Lithuania put together – plus we have history of being great nation. It’s not easy being small when you are almost four time as large as Czechia.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AP
    @szopen

    Russia is in the exact same position as Poland. Poland is in the awkward position of being too big to be a "small nation" like Czechia or Slovakia or Hungary, but not quite big enough to be like Germany or France. Russia with its population, military and resources is too big to be like France or Germany, but not quite big or strong enough to play with the USA or China.

    Some Russians seek to "level up" their country by absorbing Ukraine and Belarus, but Ukrainians (and perhaps Belarussians) are unwilling. Hence the bitterness, sour grapes, wishing ill will, and strange fantasies by some Russian nationalists and Sovok nostalgists.

    Poland can "level up" by integrating with the Baltics, Ukraine, and Visegrad. It would be part of a collective partnership (albeit the wealthiest and therefore in the short to medium term the most influential of the major partners) that would easily be in the same league as a Germany or France. There is much less unwillingness on the part of Ukrainians and probably Balts to participate in such a project-partnership than there is to place themselves under Moscow's authority. A neo-PLC is more feasible than a neo-Russian Empire. Such an arrangement would mitigate the threat of Russian domination, resulting in negative feelings towards Russia fading away. At the same time, this large zone of "anti-liberal democracy" would be large and strong enough to resist Western cultural degeneration and to wait it out to see if the West recovers from its malaise.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @szopen

  128. @szopen
    @reiner Tor

    The problem is that while Czechs, Slovaks and Lithuanians know they are small nations, we in Poland don't. We are too large to be small and we are too small to be large. With 36-40 millions of people and being 6th most populous country in EU, with being 8th economy in EU we are in awkward position. Poland is as populous as all south slavic states together; more populous than Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Belarus and Lithuania put together - plus we have history of being great nation. It's not easy being small when you are almost four time as large as Czechia.

    Replies: @AP

    Russia is in the exact same position as Poland. Poland is in the awkward position of being too big to be a “small nation” like Czechia or Slovakia or Hungary, but not quite big enough to be like Germany or France. Russia with its population, military and resources is too big to be like France or Germany, but not quite big or strong enough to play with the USA or China.

    Some Russians seek to “level up” their country by absorbing Ukraine and Belarus, but Ukrainians (and perhaps Belarussians) are unwilling. Hence the bitterness, sour grapes, wishing ill will, and strange fantasies by some Russian nationalists and Sovok nostalgists.

    Poland can “level up” by integrating with the Baltics, Ukraine, and Visegrad. It would be part of a collective partnership (albeit the wealthiest and therefore in the short to medium term the most influential of the major partners) that would easily be in the same league as a Germany or France. There is much less unwillingness on the part of Ukrainians and probably Balts to participate in such a project-partnership than there is to place themselves under Moscow’s authority. A neo-PLC is more feasible than a neo-Russian Empire. Such an arrangement would mitigate the threat of Russian domination, resulting in negative feelings towards Russia fading away. At the same time, this large zone of “anti-liberal democracy” would be large and strong enough to resist Western cultural degeneration and to wait it out to see if the West recovers from its malaise.

    • LOL: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP


    Hence the bitterness, sour grapes, wishing ill will, and strange fantasies by some Russian nationalists and Sovok nostalgists.
     
    Check out Karlin's latest thread for evidence of this on display:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/listva-moscow/
    , @szopen
    @AP

    I completely agree that the only way Poland, Ukraine and other small states to avoid the fate of being vassal of large countries is, in the long term, the cooperation. Poland+Ukraine would form a core of an alliance which would have decent potential. However, unfortunately this is, I'm affraid, completely unreal because of unreal attitudes of the only people who could back this alliance: ie. the nationalists. POlish nationalists are unreasonably hostile to Ukraine, partialy but not only because Ukrainians nationalists tend to deny Volhynia massacres and worship Bandera. OTOH a considerable part of Polish nationalists, in my experience, tend to take a position that we did absolutely nuffin'

    OTOH, the history is full of examples of formerly hostile states forming long-lasting alliances (e.g. Poland-Lithuania!).

  129. @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi


    mixed with some ancient Indo-European blood,
     
    The Kazakh are highly admixed.

    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/kazakhs.html#:~:text=A%20high%20genetic%20diversity%20was,population%20(h%3D0.996).&text=It%20was%20found%20out%20that,of%20Asian%20origin%20(11.9%25).

    But overall they are probably 60% Eastern Eurasian and 40% Western Eurasian.

    Replies: @Haruto Rat

    Kazakhs

    There are considerable differences among zhuzs and tribes:

    http://vigg.ru/fileadmin/user_upload/Dissertatsionnyy_sovet/Kandidatskie_dissertatsii/2017/Zhabagin/dissertacionnaja_rabota_Zhabagin_MK.pdf (148 pages, 22 tables, 35 figures)

    • Replies: @Haruto Rat
    @Haruto Rat

    (see page 48 – 51 for Y haplogroup frequencies)

  130. @Haruto Rat
    @Ano4


    Kazakhs
     
    There are considerable differences among zhuzs and tribes:

    http://vigg.ru/fileadmin/user_upload/Dissertatsionnyy_sovet/Kandidatskie_dissertatsii/2017/Zhabagin/dissertacionnaja_rabota_Zhabagin_MK.pdf (148 pages, 22 tables, 35 figures)

    Replies: @Haruto Rat

    (see page 48 – 51 for Y haplogroup frequencies)

  131. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Gerard-Mandela

    I'll let it stand as a monument to your idiocy (even if there is already quite the surfeit of them on my blog).

    An influential and highly anti-Russian Ukrainian diaspora is actually a rather good point, though ultimately a consequence of the historical/cultural factors discussed therein (ask oneself, why did the Ukrainian diaspora become a distinct community in the first place, while the Belorussian one, to the extent it existed, almost entirely melded into the Russian one).

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

    ask oneself, why did the Ukrainian diaspora become a distinct community in the first place, while the Belorussian one, to the extent it existed, almost entirely melded into the Russian one

    Quite simple…..

    1.there is no “distinct community” of Ukrainian diaspora. There is post-ww2 psychopaths smuggled out of the country by the CIA and MI6 in the 1940’s and 50s, who lived in closed communities and are nothing other than subhumans who represent all of the “Ukraine” movement.

    You find it strange how politically “sophisticated”Americans were too dumb to realise the lies and true implications when the gutter-whore US Ambassador to Ukraine ,Marie Yovanovitch, said at Trump’s impeachment :”My family escaped Communists, then they escaped Nazis” ?

    2.19th century emigration to US is entirely Russian world, viewed as Russian world and were called Russian by Americans then( just like “Ukrainians” in land now called Ukraine were still called “Russky” by Poles in the 16th and 17th centuries), their own flavour of Russianism is far less different than Californian jazz is from New York or New Orleans jazz – but just like they are still all American jazz, these immigrants identified as Russian world people. Canada immigration in 19th century is bunch of stateless morons from Galicia and Romania, i.e those with no connection to land of “historical” Ukraine….not to mention should have zero connection to any anti-Russian movement, or anti-Soviet or “Golodomor” blabla etcetera. Even then, main part of Canada ukrops are from Banderetard/OUN era

    3. as for the post-Soviet emigration into the west , apart from those on Soros/Gosdep sponsored degrees and other faggot courses…there is absolutely no “Ukrainian separate from Russian” people – just highly skilled, hard-working people trying to get on with their lifes, often speaking Russian, not english , at home and not associating themselves with this Banderetard community…though often acting as one with Russian expat or Soviet expat and having no problem with being called Russian

    4.Ask yourself, where is “Kyiv “or “Kyiff” in this “distinct community” for the last 150 years? LOL
    As I have said before, where is the town or village in US or Canada named after a “Ukrainian” place that isn’t entirely Russian world and with the english translation of Russian spelling?Everyother nationality that settled in the New world before WW2 has a settlement named after a place of their homeland……all that is, except fake ukropia. Why would that be, dummy?

    5.Where is the Ukrop nationalist “intellectual” from the 19th , pre-Banderetard America. None at all

    6. You conflate ukrainian liberasts with Ukrainian nationalists. Most intelligentsia in Kiev are Russian speaking, standard liberast scum. All liberasts in Ukraine or Russia are superficially nationalists with an addiction to sucking c*ck of anti-Russian jewish liberasts and actually, extremely eager to jump on any “human rights abuse” or “cultural rights” train of any supposedly suffering kavkaz or other ethnic group in Russia as a way to slander the state…it’s it as superficial as it possible – just as superficial as like Israeli-Vietnamese ( because of the young boys) troll Ano4 .In practise neither in Ukraine or Russia are actually nationalists – though for expediency during Euromaidan they gave the impression they had converged into “nationalists”. You can see with people like Sentsov – they aren’t ukrop nationalists in practise – he is just a fool who seems to have an Ekho Moskva view of Russia, not one based on interpersonal relationship.

    7. You can keep on pretending you didnt read it when I wrote that Ukrop has just released an 1000 gryvnia note featuring a guy:
    Born in Russia
    Died in Russia
    Educated in Russia
    Married a Russian,
    was Russian
    Kid a famous Russian historian

    8. On a separate note. Top 5 newborn boy and girl names in Moscow and Kiev are exactly the same. “Separate people” ? Ridiculous

    • LOL: AP
    • Replies: @AP
    @Gerard-Mandela


    On a separate note. Top 5 newborn boy and girl names in Moscow and Kiev are exactly the same. “Separate people” ? Ridiculous
     
    I decided to look this up.

    You are, of course, totally wrong as usual. But thanks for providing the opportunity to note another divergence between Ukraine and Russia.

    Most popular names for boys and girls, Moscow:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090095/popular-male-newborn-first-names-moscow/

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090087/popular-female-newborn-first-names-moscow/

    Alexander
    Mikhail
    Maxim
    Artyom
    Ivan

    Sofia
    Maria
    Anna
    Alisa
    Viktoria

    Kiev:

    https://www.unian.info/society/10839098-justice-ministry-publishes-lists-of-most-popular-unusual-baby-names-in-central-ukraine-in-2019.html

    Alexander
    Dmytro
    Matviy
    Mark

    Solomiya
    Maria
    Varvara
    Milana
    Arina

    As for your Ukrainian diaspora nonsense:

    1.there is no “distinct community” of Ukrainian diaspora. There is post-ww2 psychopaths smuggled out of the country by the CIA and MI6 in the 1940’s and 50s, who lived in closed communities and are nothing other than subhumans who represent all of the “Ukraine” movement.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_National_Association

    The Ukrainian National Association (UNA) (Ukrainian: Український народний союз) is a North American fraternal organization founded in Shamokin, Pennsylvania on February 22, 1894 when the first wave of immigrants from the Western regions of Ukraine came to the United States and Canada.

    Originally called the Ruthenian National Union (Ukrainian: Руський Народний Союз), it was partly established to counter the influence of the Hungarian-oriented Greek Catholic Union of the USA.[1] The Union adopted the newspaper Svoboda (Liberty) as its organ and sought to develop a distinctly Ukrainian identity.[1] It offered to provide for material needs, such as funeral expenses and care for destitute members while also promoting Ukrainian culture.[2][3]

    The Union later changed its name to the Ukrainian National Association in order to assert a specifically Ukrainian ethnocultural identity.[1]

    Name change occurred in 1914.

    This Ukrainian Greek Catholic cathedral in Chicago was built in 1913:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/St._Nicholas_Ukrainian_Catholic_Cathedral_-_panoramio.jpg/800px-St._Nicholas_Ukrainian_Catholic_Cathedral_-_panoramio.jpg

    You find it strange how politically “sophisticated”Americans were too dumb to realise the lies and true implications when the gutter-whore US Ambassador to Ukraine ,Marie Yovanovitch, said at Trump’s impeachment :”My family escaped Communists, then they escaped Nazis” ?
     
    Marie Yovanovitch is not a diaspora Ukrainian but an ethnic Russian from an anti-Soviet ethnic Russian family.

    19th century emigration to US is entirely Russian world, viewed as Russian world and were called Russian by Americans then( just like “Ukrainians” in land now called Ukraine were still called “Russky” by Poles in the 16th and 17th centuries),
     
    They called themselves Rusyn, were from Galicia, and spoke a Galician dialect that was further from Russian than is standard Ukrainian.

    as for the post-Soviet emigration into the west , apart from those on Soros/Gosdep sponsored degrees and other faggot courses…there is absolutely no “Ukrainian separate from Russian” people – just highly skilled, hard-working people trying to get on with their lifes, often speaking Russian, not english , at home and not associating themselves with this Banderetard community
     
    Churches (both Greek Catholic and Orthodox), Ukrainian Saturday schools, and youth organizations are full of "off the boaters." Ironically these guys are often more hardcore Banderists than many of the grandchildren of the original Banderists, who have adopted the American embarrassment towards xenophobia that newcomers have not.

    As I have said before, where is the town or village in US or Canada named after a “Ukrainian” place that isn’t entirely Russian world and with the english translation of Russian spelling?Everyother nationality that settled in the New world before WW2 has a settlement named after a place of their homeland
     
    LOL. Another epic failure by you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_place_names_of_Ukrainian_origin



    Alberta:

    Bellis, Alberta, "white woods"; referring to poplars and birch.[1]
    Myrnam, Alberta, "peace to us"; from the Ukrainian word myr, "peace".[2]
    Slawa, Alberta, northeast of Myrnam on the Edmonton-to-Lloydminster branch line of the Canadian Pacific Railway[3] - Polonized spelling of the Ukrainian word "glory" (slava).
    Wasel, Alberta, west of Hamlin near the North Saskatchewan River on Highway 652[4] - Polonized spelling of the Ukrainian common name "Vasyl".
    Borsczow, Alberta,[33] northeast of Ryley on Secondary Highway 626; Polonized spelling of Borshchiv, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Buchach, Alberta, the Buczacz School District No. 2580,[8] and St. Nicholas Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (Hlus' Church), Buczacz; halfway between Innisfree and Musidora, Alberta off Secondary Highway 870 - from Buchach, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Halych, Alberta (located in Westlock County, east of Tawatinaw[34]), from Halych - the historic city in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast
    Ispas, Alberta,[35] southeast of Hamlin and northwest of Duvernay, Alberta on the south side of the North Saskatchewan River - after Ispas, Vyzhnytsia Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).
    Jaroslaw School District No. 1478,[29] the Descent of the Holy Spirit Ukrainian Catholic Church, Jaroslaw;[36] and St. Demitrius Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Jaroslaw;[37] all northeast of Bruderheim, Alberta on Highway 38 - the Polish name of the city of Yaroslav, now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Kolomea, Alberta and the Kolomea School District No. 1507,[38] both southeast of Mundare, Alberta - phonetic spelling of Kolomyia, Kolomyia Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.
    Lanuke, Alberta,[39] south of Two Hills off Highway 36 - possibly after a local family.
    Luzan, Alberta,[40] southwest of Andrew - after Luzhany, Kitsman Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovyna).
    Mazeppa, Alberta, northeast of High River and northwest of Blackie - the historical English spelling of the last name of Hetman Ivan Mazepa.
    New Kiew, Alberta and the Kiew School District No. 1693,[41] both north of Lavoy, Alberta off Secondary Highway 631 - German and Polish spelling of the capital city of Ukraine.
    Shalka, Alberta,[4] north of Hairy Hill off Secondary Highway 645; after postmaster Matt (Dmytro) Shalka.
    Shandro, Alberta, northeast of Andrew off Secondary Highway 857 near the North Saskatchewan River - after the Shandro family from "Rus'kyi Banyliv", Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).[42]
    Shepenge, Alberta, the Szypenitz School District No. 1470,[43] and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of St. Mary, Szypentiz; all northwest of Hairy Hill and northeast of Duvernay, Alberta off Secondary Highway 860 - after Shypyntsi, Kitsman Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).
    Shishkovitzi was a locality southwest of Hilliard and southeast of Chipman, Alberta centering on St. Mary's Holy Dormition Russo-Greek Orthodox Catholic Church[44] - named after Shyshkivtsi, Kitsman Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).
    Sniatyn, Alberta and the Sniatyn School District No. 1605,[45] both north of Andrew at the confluence of Limestone and Egg Creeks - after Sniatyn, Sniatyn Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast. Was originally named Hunka,[46] after a settler in the area from Bukovina, and located further upstream on Limestone Creek.
    Spaca Moskalyk was a locality northwest of Vegreville and northeast of Mundare, Alberta centered on the Transfiguration of Our Lord Ukrainian Catholic Church[47][48] - named after both Spas, Dolyna Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast, and the Moskalyk family who donated part of their farmland for the church.
    Stry, Alberta and the Stry School District No. 2508,[49] both southeast of Vilna and northeast of Hamlin, Alberta - after Stryi, Stryi Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Ukalta, Alberta, north of Wostok off Secondary Highway 855 near the North Saskatchewan River - possibly a combination of "Ukrayina" and "Alberta".
    Zawale, Alberta and the Zawale School District No. 1074,[50] both south of Wostok, Alberta off Highway 29 - Polonized misspelling of Zavalya, Sniatyn Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.

    Edmonton
    Neighbourhoods
    Baturyn, Edmonton, after Baturyn, a historic castle town in northeastern Ukraine (Bakhmatskyi Raion, Chernihiv Oblast).
    Oleskiw, Edmonton (formerly Wolf Willow Farms),[51] renamed in 1972 after Dr. Joseph Oleskiw (1860–1903), professor, writer and promoter of emigration.[22]
    Ozerna, Edmonton, literally "lake district".[51]
    Pylypow Industrial subdivision, after Ivan Pylypow,[51] early pioneer.[52]

    Saskatchewan

    Chorney Beach, Saskatchewan, a resort beach at Fishing Lake southeast of Wadena; possibly after a local family.
    Chortitz, Saskatchewan, south of Swift Current on Highway 379; German spelling of Khortytsia island, located in the Dnipro river now within the city of Zaporizhia, Ukraine - Saskatchewan hamlet named by "Russian" Mennonite immigrants.
    Dmytruk Lake, north of Cree Lake; after Peter Dmytruk of Wynyard, Saskatchewan (aka "Pierre le Canadien"), a member of the Royal Canadian Air Force who served with the French Resistance after being shot down near Paris in 1943.[55]
    Dneister, Saskatchewan (renamed "Hamton"),[56] northeast of Rhein on Highway 650; after the Dniester river.
    Krasne, Saskatchewan, west of Wishart, the Ukrainian word for "beautiful"; after a village in Pidvolochysk Raion,[57] Ternopil Oblast, Ukraine.
    Krydor, Saskatchewan, after Peter (Petro) Krysak and Teodor Lucyk, local settlers.
    Lemberg, Saskatchewan, German name for Lviv, Ukraine - Saskatchewan town named by ethnic Germans from Galicia.
    Leskiw Lake, southwest of Creighton, Saskatchewan; after Anthony Leskiw of Saskatoon, "lost at sea in October 1940 while serving aboard SS Whitford Point, torpedoed in the north Atlantic by a German submarine".[58]
    Odessa, Saskatchewan, after the city of Odessa, Ukraine - Saskatchewan village named by ethnic Germans from the neighbouring Bessarabia Governorate of the Russian Empire, which is today split between Moldova and Ukraine.
    Paniowce, Saskatchewan (renamed "Swan Plain"[59]), north of Norquay on Highway 8 - Polonized misspelling of Panivtsi Zelene, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Rak, Saskatchewan, northeast of Vonda on Highway 41 - after Joseph Rak[60] from Lanivtsi, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    St. Petro Mohyla Institute, Saskatoon, a private college for the study of the Ukrainian language, history and culture - after St. Petro Mohyla.
    St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Park, Saskatchewan, a campground owned by the Saskatoon branch of the Ukrainian Catholic Brotherhood of Canada; featuring a small Ukrainian Catholic church dedicated to St. Volodymyr.
    Tarnopol, Saskatchewan, Polonized spelling of Ternopil, Ternopil Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Whitkow, Saskatchewan, west of Mayfair on Highway 378, is an Anglo-Polonized spelling[61] of Vytkiv, Radekhiv Raion, Lviv Oblast.

    Adamiwka School District No. 1994 and the Ukrainian Catholic Church of the Descent of the Holy Ghost, Adamiwka;[78] both southeast of Rosthern, Saskatchewan - after "Adamivka",[79] now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Antoniwka was a locality north of Canora, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of the Assumption; named after Antonivka, Chortkiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    "Belyk's" was a locality north of Borden, Saskatchewan centered on the "Ivan Franko National Home" - built on Yurko Belyk's farmland[60] - and the Redberry Park rural post office; also the location of the Assumption of St. Mary Ukrainian Orthodox church.
    Beresina, Saskatchewan, northeast of Churchbridge; German spelling of "Berezyna" (now Rozdil[80] in Mykolaiv Raion), Lviv Oblast - Saskatchewan post office named by ethnic Germans from Galicia.
    Bobulynci was a locality southwest of Rose Valley, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of The Transfiguration - named after Bobulyntsi, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Bodnari (or "Kolo Bodnariv") was a locality northeast of Vonda, Saskatchewan named after Teodor Bodnar,[60] who donated part of his farmland to the Ukrainian Catholic parish of Saints Peter and Paul for a church.
    Buchach was a locality near Hazel Dell, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic Church of the Patronage of the Blessed Virgin Mary; named after Buchach, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Bukowina, Saskatchewan, south of Yellow Creek; German/Polish spelling of the Austrian crownland of Bukovyna - now Chernivtsi Oblast, Ukraine. Named by Bukovynian immigrant and postmaster John (Ivan) Fessiuk.[75]
    Byrtnyky was a locality between Kelvington and Endeavour, Saskatchewan named after one of three places named "Byrtnyky"[81] in Lviv Oblast.
    Dneiper, Saskatchewan, north of Rhein, after the Dnipro river.
    Dobrowody, Saskatchewan and the Dobrowody School District No. 2637, both northeast of Rama, Saskatchewan - a Ukrainian phrase meaning "good water"; after a village of the same name ("Dobrovody")[57] in Pidhaitsi Raion, Ternopil Oblast, Ukraine.
    Drobot, Saskatchewan, north of Theodore, after Thomas Drobot - postmaster from 1909–1917.
    Halyary, Saskatchewan, southwest of Preeceville - a Postmaster General/Government of Canada misspelling of "Halychy".[82]
    Halycry School District No. 2835, also southwest of Preeceville, Saskatchewan - a Department of Education misspelling of "Halychy".[82]
    Havryliuky was a locality south of Prud'homme, Saskatchewan named after Nicholas Hawryluk (Nykola Havryliuk),[60] who donated part of his farmland for Sacred Heart of Jesus Ukrainian Catholic Church.
    Hryhoriw School District No. 2390 and the Ukrainian Catholic parish of St. Demetrius, Hryhoriw; both south of Preeceville, Saskatchewan - after Hryhoriv, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Hory (also called Carpenter-Hory) was a locality southwest of Wakaw, Saskatchewan centering on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of The Ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ - after the Ukrainian word for "mountains" ("hori").
    Janow School District No. 2842 and Janow Corners, Saskatchewan, both south of Meath Park; after a village called "Yaniv" (now Ivano-Frankove),[72] in Yavoriv Raion, Lviv Oblast, Ukraine.
    Kalyna, Saskatchewan, and the Kalyna School District No. 3945, both south of Meath Park, Saskatchewan - after the Ukrainian word for the "highbush cranberry".
    Kiev was a locality southwest of Rose Valley, Saskatchewan centered on a Ukrainian Orthodox Church; named after the capital city of Ukraine.
    Kobzar School District No. 3597 and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Holy Ascension, Arran-Kobzar; both south of Arran, Saskatchewan - after the book of poems by Taras Shevchenko.
    Kolo Pidskal'noho (or "Pidskalny's") was a locality west of Cudworth, Saskatchewan named after Ivan Pidskalny,[58] who donated part of his farmland to the Ukrainian Catholic parish of St. Demetrius for a church.
    Kolo Solomyanoho was a locality west of Cudworth, Saskatchewan named after Ivan Solomyany,[58] who donated part of his farmland for the (unspecified) Ukrainian Church of the Holy Transfiguration.
    Kowalowka School District No. 1739 and the Ukrainian Catholic Church of The Transfiguration, Kovalivka; both northeast of Canora, Saskatchewan - after Kovalivka, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    "Krassna" was a parish of German Roman Catholics[83] south of Leader, Saskatchewan - German spelling of Krasne, Izmail Raion, Odessa Oblast.
    Krim was a locality south of Aberdeen, Saskatchewan and is the German spelling of the Crimean peninsula - named by "Russian" Mennonites from the Taurida Governorate of the Russian Empire, now Ukraine.
    Kulykiv was a locality north of Invermay, Saskatchewan named after Kulykiv, Zhovkva Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Kvitka, Saskatchewan, south of Jedburgh, after Gregory (Hryhory) Kvitka (1778–1843), Ukrainian novelist.
    Kyziv-Tiaziv, Saskatchewan, south of Rama, after Tiaziv, Tysmenytsia Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.[84][85]
    Laniwci, Saskatchewan, and the Laniwci School District No. 2300, both west of Alvena, Saskatchewan - Polonized spelling of Lanivtsi, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Malonek, Saskatchewan, and the Malonek School District No. 3669, both northeast of Pelly, Saskatchewan; perhaps after "Malynivka"[62] - now Malinówka, Brzozów County, Poland.[24]
    New Yaroslau, the name of a Ukrainian block settlement northeast of Yorkton, Saskatchewan; after the ancient city of Yaroslav - now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Orolow, Saskatchewan (also called "Teshliuk's"),[81] south of Krydor - Polonized misspelling of Ordiv, Radekhiv Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Rebryna was a locality northeast of Hafford, Saskatchewan centered on the "Redberry Ivan Franko Library and Hall", named after Paul (Pavlo) Rebryna.[60]
    Sich School District No. 3454, the Sich community hall and the Ukrainian Catholic parish of St. Michael, "Krydor Sich"; all west of Blaine Lake, Saskatchewan - after the fortresses of the Ukrainian Cossacks.
    Sokal, Saskatchewan, and the Sokal School District No. 1955, both west of Wakaw, Saskatchewan - named after Sokal, Sokal Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Stanislavtsi was a locality south of Foam Lake, Saskatchewan named after Stanislaviv (now Ivano-Frankivsk), Ukraine; also the location of the "Michael Hrushewski" community hall.
    Vasyliv (or "Kolo Vasyleva") was a locality south of Buchanan, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of Saints Constantine and Helena; named after "N. Wasyliw".[58]
    Vorobceve was a locality just west of Krydor, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic Church of St. Demetrius; named after the Worobetz family.[86]
    Walawa, Saskatchewan, west of Theodore; Polonized spelling of "Valiava" - now in Przemyśl County, Poland.[24]
    Welechko (or "Bilya Velychka") was a locality south of Hafford, Saskatchewan, named after Ivan Welechko[60] - who donated part of his farmland to the Ukrainian Catholic parish of The Presentation for a church; also the location of the "Taras Shewchenko" community hall.

    Manitoba

    Dneiper, Manitoba[87] (renamed "Fishing River"), east of Ukraina and northeast of Sifton - after the Dnipro river.
    Komarno, Manitoba, the Ukrainian word for "mosquito" - possibly after Komarno, Horodok Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Prawda, Manitoba, southeast of Hadashville on the eastbound lanes of the Trans-Canada Highway; a Polonized spelling of the Ukrainian (and Russian) word pravda, "truth".
    Szewczenko, Manitoba (renamed "Vita"), west of Stuartburn on Provincial Road 201; a Polonized spelling of Taras Shevchenko's last name.
    Trembowla, Manitoba, northwest of Dauphin on Provincial Road 491; the Polish spelling of Terebovlia, Terebovlya Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Ukraina, Manitoba,[88] southeast of Ethelbert and northwest of Sifton on Provincial Road 273; a phonetic spelling of "Ukraine" in the Ukrainian language.
    Zhoda, Manitoba, north of Vita and southeast of Steinbach on Highway 12; the Ukrainian word for "harmony".
    Halicz, Manitoba,[89] northwest of Trembowla and north of Ashville near Highway 10 - a Polonized spelling of Halych, a historic Ukrainian city in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.
    Horod, Manitoba, north of Elphinstone on Provincial Road 354, near the south boundary of Riding Mountain National Park - the Ukrainian word for "city".
    Jaroslaw, Manitoba, southwest of Hnausa; the Polish name of the city of Yaroslav, now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Kulish, Manitoba, northwest of Ethelbert; after Panteleimon Kulish (1819–1897).
    Medika, Manitoba, north of Hadashville on Provincial Road 507 - after Medyka on the present Polish-Ukrainian border.[24]
    Melnice, Manitoba, west of Dunnottar and southwest of Winnipeg Beach, at the junction of Highway 8 and Provincial Road 225 - the Ukrainian word for "windmill".[90]
    Okno, Manitoba, northwest of Riverton near Shorncliffe - the Ukrainian word for "window".
    Oleskiw, Manitoba,[91] west of Stuartburn on Provincial Road 201; after Dr. Joseph Oleskiw (1860–1903) - author of the pamphlets "On Free Lands" (Pro Vilni Zemli, spring 1895),[20][21] and "On Emigration" (O emigratsiy, December 1895).[22]
    Olha, Manitoba,[91] east of Rossburn and north of Oakburn on Provincial Road 577; from female given name Olha (c.f. Russian "Olga") - possibly after Princess Olha (c. 890–969).
    Ozerna, Manitoba, southeast of Erickson and northeast of Newdale - literally "lake district".
    Petlura, Manitoba, at the junction of Provincial Road 366 and Provincial Road 584 near the north boundary of Riding Mountain National Park - after Ukrainian independence leader Symon Petliura (1879–1926).
    Ruthenia, Manitoba, northeast of Angusville and north of the Waywayseecappo townsite on Provincial Road 264, near the south boundary of Riding Mountain National Park - after the Austro-Hungarian name for the Ukrainian territories of Galicia, Bukovina, and Carpathian Ruthenia (now Transcarpathian Oblast).
    Seech, Manitoba, east of Olha and northwest of Elphinstone, near the south boundary of Riding Mountain National Park - a phonetic misspelling of the Ukrainian word "sich"; after the fortresses of the Ukrainian Cossacks.
    Senkiw, Manitoba, northwest of Roseau River and southwest of Rosa - possibly after a local family.
    Sirko, Manitoba,[92] south of Sundown near the Minnesota border - possibly after the Ukrainian Cossack leader Ivan Sirko (c. 1610–1680).
    Vidir, Manitoba, northwest of Arborg on Provincial Road 233 - ?.
    Zbaraz, Manitoba, southeast of Fisher Branch and northwest of Arborg on Provincial Road 329 - a phonetic spelling of Zbarazh, Zbarazh Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Zelana, Manitoba, northeast of Ukraina and east of Ethelbert on Provincial Road 269 - a misspelling of the Ukrainian word for "green" (zelena).
    Zelena, Manitoba, northeast of Makaroff and west of the junction of Provincial Road 594 and Highway 83 - the Ukrainian word for "green".
    Zoria, Manitoba,[93] east of Sifton off Highway 10 - the Ukrainian word for "dawn".

    :::::::::::::::::

    Not many places in the USA because unlike in Canada, Ukrainians came into already-settled and named places in the USA.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Gerard-Mandela

    , @Art Deco
    @Gerard-Mandela

    There is post-ww2 psychopaths smuggled out of the country by the CIA

    https://www.stjohnbaptistucc.com/


    This parish was founded in 1913. They have a mass which alternates between Ukrainian and English. Not able to attend anymore and I miss it.

  132. @AP
    @szopen

    Russia is in the exact same position as Poland. Poland is in the awkward position of being too big to be a "small nation" like Czechia or Slovakia or Hungary, but not quite big enough to be like Germany or France. Russia with its population, military and resources is too big to be like France or Germany, but not quite big or strong enough to play with the USA or China.

    Some Russians seek to "level up" their country by absorbing Ukraine and Belarus, but Ukrainians (and perhaps Belarussians) are unwilling. Hence the bitterness, sour grapes, wishing ill will, and strange fantasies by some Russian nationalists and Sovok nostalgists.

    Poland can "level up" by integrating with the Baltics, Ukraine, and Visegrad. It would be part of a collective partnership (albeit the wealthiest and therefore in the short to medium term the most influential of the major partners) that would easily be in the same league as a Germany or France. There is much less unwillingness on the part of Ukrainians and probably Balts to participate in such a project-partnership than there is to place themselves under Moscow's authority. A neo-PLC is more feasible than a neo-Russian Empire. Such an arrangement would mitigate the threat of Russian domination, resulting in negative feelings towards Russia fading away. At the same time, this large zone of "anti-liberal democracy" would be large and strong enough to resist Western cultural degeneration and to wait it out to see if the West recovers from its malaise.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @szopen

    Hence the bitterness, sour grapes, wishing ill will, and strange fantasies by some Russian nationalists and Sovok nostalgists.

    Check out Karlin’s latest thread for evidence of this on display:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/listva-moscow/

  133. AP says:
    @Gerard-Mandela
    @Anatoly Karlin


    ask oneself, why did the Ukrainian diaspora become a distinct community in the first place, while the Belorussian one, to the extent it existed, almost entirely melded into the Russian one
     
    Quite simple.....

    1.there is no "distinct community" of Ukrainian diaspora. There is post-ww2 psychopaths smuggled out of the country by the CIA and MI6 in the 1940's and 50s, who lived in closed communities and are nothing other than subhumans who represent all of the "Ukraine" movement.

    You find it strange how politically "sophisticated"Americans were too dumb to realise the lies and true implications when the gutter-whore US Ambassador to Ukraine ,Marie Yovanovitch, said at Trump's impeachment :"My family escaped Communists, then they escaped Nazis" ?

    2.19th century emigration to US is entirely Russian world, viewed as Russian world and were called Russian by Americans then( just like "Ukrainians" in land now called Ukraine were still called "Russky" by Poles in the 16th and 17th centuries), their own flavour of Russianism is far less different than Californian jazz is from New York or New Orleans jazz - but just like they are still all American jazz, these immigrants identified as Russian world people. Canada immigration in 19th century is bunch of stateless morons from Galicia and Romania, i.e those with no connection to land of "historical" Ukraine....not to mention should have zero connection to any anti-Russian movement, or anti-Soviet or "Golodomor" blabla etcetera. Even then, main part of Canada ukrops are from Banderetard/OUN era

    3. as for the post-Soviet emigration into the west , apart from those on Soros/Gosdep sponsored degrees and other faggot courses...there is absolutely no "Ukrainian separate from Russian" people - just highly skilled, hard-working people trying to get on with their lifes, often speaking Russian, not english , at home and not associating themselves with this Banderetard community...though often acting as one with Russian expat or Soviet expat and having no problem with being called Russian

    4.Ask yourself, where is "Kyiv "or "Kyiff" in this "distinct community" for the last 150 years? LOL
    As I have said before, where is the town or village in US or Canada named after a "Ukrainian" place that isn't entirely Russian world and with the english translation of Russian spelling?Everyother nationality that settled in the New world before WW2 has a settlement named after a place of their homeland......all that is, except fake ukropia. Why would that be, dummy?

    5.Where is the Ukrop nationalist "intellectual" from the 19th , pre-Banderetard America. None at all

    6. You conflate ukrainian liberasts with Ukrainian nationalists. Most intelligentsia in Kiev are Russian speaking, standard liberast scum. All liberasts in Ukraine or Russia are superficially nationalists with an addiction to sucking c*ck of anti-Russian jewish liberasts and actually, extremely eager to jump on any "human rights abuse" or "cultural rights" train of any supposedly suffering kavkaz or other ethnic group in Russia as a way to slander the state...it's it as superficial as it possible - just as superficial as like Israeli-Vietnamese ( because of the young boys) troll Ano4 .In practise neither in Ukraine or Russia are actually nationalists - though for expediency during Euromaidan they gave the impression they had converged into "nationalists". You can see with people like Sentsov - they aren't ukrop nationalists in practise - he is just a fool who seems to have an Ekho Moskva view of Russia, not one based on interpersonal relationship.

    7. You can keep on pretending you didnt read it when I wrote that Ukrop has just released an 1000 gryvnia note featuring a guy:
    Born in Russia
    Died in Russia
    Educated in Russia
    Married a Russian,
    was Russian
    Kid a famous Russian historian

    8. On a separate note. Top 5 newborn boy and girl names in Moscow and Kiev are exactly the same. "Separate people" ? Ridiculous

    Replies: @AP, @Art Deco

    On a separate note. Top 5 newborn boy and girl names in Moscow and Kiev are exactly the same. “Separate people” ? Ridiculous

    I decided to look this up.

    You are, of course, totally wrong as usual. But thanks for providing the opportunity to note another divergence between Ukraine and Russia.

    Most popular names for boys and girls, Moscow:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090095/popular-male-newborn-first-names-moscow/

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090087/popular-female-newborn-first-names-moscow/

    Alexander
    Mikhail
    Maxim
    Artyom
    Ivan

    Sofia
    Maria
    Anna
    Alisa
    Viktoria

    Kiev:

    https://www.unian.info/society/10839098-justice-ministry-publishes-lists-of-most-popular-unusual-baby-names-in-central-ukraine-in-2019.html

    Alexander
    Dmytro
    Matviy
    Mark

    Solomiya
    Maria
    Varvara
    Milana
    Arina

    As for your Ukrainian diaspora nonsense:

    1.there is no “distinct community” of Ukrainian diaspora. There is post-ww2 psychopaths smuggled out of the country by the CIA and MI6 in the 1940’s and 50s, who lived in closed communities and are nothing other than subhumans who represent all of the “Ukraine” movement.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_National_Association

    The Ukrainian National Association (UNA) (Ukrainian: Український народний союз) is a North American fraternal organization founded in Shamokin, Pennsylvania on February 22, 1894 when the first wave of immigrants from the Western regions of Ukraine came to the United States and Canada.

    Originally called the Ruthenian National Union (Ukrainian: Руський Народний Союз), it was partly established to counter the influence of the Hungarian-oriented Greek Catholic Union of the USA.[1] The Union adopted the newspaper Svoboda (Liberty) as its organ and sought to develop a distinctly Ukrainian identity.[1] It offered to provide for material needs, such as funeral expenses and care for destitute members while also promoting Ukrainian culture.[2][3]

    The Union later changed its name to the Ukrainian National Association in order to assert a specifically Ukrainian ethnocultural identity.[1]

    Name change occurred in 1914.

    This Ukrainian Greek Catholic cathedral in Chicago was built in 1913:

    You find it strange how politically “sophisticated”Americans were too dumb to realise the lies and true implications when the gutter-whore US Ambassador to Ukraine ,Marie Yovanovitch, said at Trump’s impeachment :”My family escaped Communists, then they escaped Nazis” ?

    Marie Yovanovitch is not a diaspora Ukrainian but an ethnic Russian from an anti-Soviet ethnic Russian family.

    19th century emigration to US is entirely Russian world, viewed as Russian world and were called Russian by Americans then( just like “Ukrainians” in land now called Ukraine were still called “Russky” by Poles in the 16th and 17th centuries),

    They called themselves Rusyn, were from Galicia, and spoke a Galician dialect that was further from Russian than is standard Ukrainian.

    as for the post-Soviet emigration into the west , apart from those on Soros/Gosdep sponsored degrees and other faggot courses…there is absolutely no “Ukrainian separate from Russian” people – just highly skilled, hard-working people trying to get on with their lifes, often speaking Russian, not english , at home and not associating themselves with this Banderetard community

    Churches (both Greek Catholic and Orthodox), Ukrainian Saturday schools, and youth organizations are full of “off the boaters.” Ironically these guys are often more hardcore Banderists than many of the grandchildren of the original Banderists, who have adopted the American embarrassment towards xenophobia that newcomers have not.

    As I have said before, where is the town or village in US or Canada named after a “Ukrainian” place that isn’t entirely Russian world and with the english translation of Russian spelling?Everyother nationality that settled in the New world before WW2 has a settlement named after a place of their homeland

    LOL. Another epic failure by you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_place_names_of_Ukrainian_origin

    [MORE]

    Alberta:

    Bellis, Alberta, “white woods”; referring to poplars and birch.[1]
    Myrnam, Alberta, “peace to us”; from the Ukrainian word myr, “peace”.[2]
    Slawa, Alberta, northeast of Myrnam on the Edmonton-to-Lloydminster branch line of the Canadian Pacific Railway[3] – Polonized spelling of the Ukrainian word “glory” (slava).
    Wasel, Alberta, west of Hamlin near the North Saskatchewan River on Highway 652[4] – Polonized spelling of the Ukrainian common name “Vasyl”.
    Borsczow, Alberta,[33] northeast of Ryley on Secondary Highway 626; Polonized spelling of Borshchiv, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Buchach, Alberta, the Buczacz School District No. 2580,[8] and St. Nicholas Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (Hlus’ Church), Buczacz; halfway between Innisfree and Musidora, Alberta off Secondary Highway 870 – from Buchach, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Halych, Alberta (located in Westlock County, east of Tawatinaw[34]), from Halych – the historic city in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast
    Ispas, Alberta,[35] southeast of Hamlin and northwest of Duvernay, Alberta on the south side of the North Saskatchewan River – after Ispas, Vyzhnytsia Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).
    Jaroslaw School District No. 1478,[29] the Descent of the Holy Spirit Ukrainian Catholic Church, Jaroslaw;[36] and St. Demitrius Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Jaroslaw;[37] all northeast of Bruderheim, Alberta on Highway 38 – the Polish name of the city of Yaroslav, now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Kolomea, Alberta and the Kolomea School District No. 1507,[38] both southeast of Mundare, Alberta – phonetic spelling of Kolomyia, Kolomyia Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.
    Lanuke, Alberta,[39] south of Two Hills off Highway 36 – possibly after a local family.
    Luzan, Alberta,[40] southwest of Andrew – after Luzhany, Kitsman Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovyna).
    Mazeppa, Alberta, northeast of High River and northwest of Blackie – the historical English spelling of the last name of Hetman Ivan Mazepa.
    New Kiew, Alberta and the Kiew School District No. 1693,[41] both north of Lavoy, Alberta off Secondary Highway 631 – German and Polish spelling of the capital city of Ukraine.
    Shalka, Alberta,[4] north of Hairy Hill off Secondary Highway 645; after postmaster Matt (Dmytro) Shalka.
    Shandro, Alberta, northeast of Andrew off Secondary Highway 857 near the North Saskatchewan River – after the Shandro family from “Rus’kyi Banyliv”, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).[42]
    Shepenge, Alberta, the Szypenitz School District No. 1470,[43] and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of St. Mary, Szypentiz; all northwest of Hairy Hill and northeast of Duvernay, Alberta off Secondary Highway 860 – after Shypyntsi, Kitsman Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).
    Shishkovitzi was a locality southwest of Hilliard and southeast of Chipman, Alberta centering on St. Mary’s Holy Dormition Russo-Greek Orthodox Catholic Church[44] – named after Shyshkivtsi, Kitsman Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).
    Sniatyn, Alberta and the Sniatyn School District No. 1605,[45] both north of Andrew at the confluence of Limestone and Egg Creeks – after Sniatyn, Sniatyn Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast. Was originally named Hunka,[46] after a settler in the area from Bukovina, and located further upstream on Limestone Creek.
    Spaca Moskalyk was a locality northwest of Vegreville and northeast of Mundare, Alberta centered on the Transfiguration of Our Lord Ukrainian Catholic Church[47][48] – named after both Spas, Dolyna Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast, and the Moskalyk family who donated part of their farmland for the church.
    Stry, Alberta and the Stry School District No. 2508,[49] both southeast of Vilna and northeast of Hamlin, Alberta – after Stryi, Stryi Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Ukalta, Alberta, north of Wostok off Secondary Highway 855 near the North Saskatchewan River – possibly a combination of “Ukrayina” and “Alberta”.
    Zawale, Alberta and the Zawale School District No. 1074,[50] both south of Wostok, Alberta off Highway 29 – Polonized misspelling of Zavalya, Sniatyn Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.

    Edmonton
    Neighbourhoods
    Baturyn, Edmonton, after Baturyn, a historic castle town in northeastern Ukraine (Bakhmatskyi Raion, Chernihiv Oblast).
    Oleskiw, Edmonton (formerly Wolf Willow Farms),[51] renamed in 1972 after Dr. Joseph Oleskiw (1860–1903), professor, writer and promoter of emigration.[22]
    Ozerna, Edmonton, literally “lake district”.[51]
    Pylypow Industrial subdivision, after Ivan Pylypow,[51] early pioneer.[52]

    Saskatchewan

    Chorney Beach, Saskatchewan, a resort beach at Fishing Lake southeast of Wadena; possibly after a local family.
    Chortitz, Saskatchewan, south of Swift Current on Highway 379; German spelling of Khortytsia island, located in the Dnipro river now within the city of Zaporizhia, Ukraine – Saskatchewan hamlet named by “Russian” Mennonite immigrants.
    Dmytruk Lake, north of Cree Lake; after Peter Dmytruk of Wynyard, Saskatchewan (aka “Pierre le Canadien”), a member of the Royal Canadian Air Force who served with the French Resistance after being shot down near Paris in 1943.[55]
    Dneister, Saskatchewan (renamed “Hamton”),[56] northeast of Rhein on Highway 650; after the Dniester river.
    Krasne, Saskatchewan, west of Wishart, the Ukrainian word for “beautiful”; after a village in Pidvolochysk Raion,[57] Ternopil Oblast, Ukraine.
    Krydor, Saskatchewan, after Peter (Petro) Krysak and Teodor Lucyk, local settlers.
    Lemberg, Saskatchewan, German name for Lviv, Ukraine – Saskatchewan town named by ethnic Germans from Galicia.
    Leskiw Lake, southwest of Creighton, Saskatchewan; after Anthony Leskiw of Saskatoon, “lost at sea in October 1940 while serving aboard SS Whitford Point, torpedoed in the north Atlantic by a German submarine”.[58]
    Odessa, Saskatchewan, after the city of Odessa, Ukraine – Saskatchewan village named by ethnic Germans from the neighbouring Bessarabia Governorate of the Russian Empire, which is today split between Moldova and Ukraine.
    Paniowce, Saskatchewan (renamed “Swan Plain”[59]), north of Norquay on Highway 8 – Polonized misspelling of Panivtsi Zelene, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Rak, Saskatchewan, northeast of Vonda on Highway 41 – after Joseph Rak[60] from Lanivtsi, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    St. Petro Mohyla Institute, Saskatoon, a private college for the study of the Ukrainian language, history and culture – after St. Petro Mohyla.
    St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Park, Saskatchewan, a campground owned by the Saskatoon branch of the Ukrainian Catholic Brotherhood of Canada; featuring a small Ukrainian Catholic church dedicated to St. Volodymyr.
    Tarnopol, Saskatchewan, Polonized spelling of Ternopil, Ternopil Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Whitkow, Saskatchewan, west of Mayfair on Highway 378, is an Anglo-Polonized spelling[61] of Vytkiv, Radekhiv Raion, Lviv Oblast.

    Adamiwka School District No. 1994 and the Ukrainian Catholic Church of the Descent of the Holy Ghost, Adamiwka;[78] both southeast of Rosthern, Saskatchewan – after “Adamivka”,[79] now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Antoniwka was a locality north of Canora, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of the Assumption; named after Antonivka, Chortkiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    “Belyk’s” was a locality north of Borden, Saskatchewan centered on the “Ivan Franko National Home” – built on Yurko Belyk’s farmland[60] – and the Redberry Park rural post office; also the location of the Assumption of St. Mary Ukrainian Orthodox church.
    Beresina, Saskatchewan, northeast of Churchbridge; German spelling of “Berezyna” (now Rozdil[80] in Mykolaiv Raion), Lviv Oblast – Saskatchewan post office named by ethnic Germans from Galicia.
    Bobulynci was a locality southwest of Rose Valley, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of The Transfiguration – named after Bobulyntsi, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Bodnari (or “Kolo Bodnariv”) was a locality northeast of Vonda, Saskatchewan named after Teodor Bodnar,[60] who donated part of his farmland to the Ukrainian Catholic parish of Saints Peter and Paul for a church.
    Buchach was a locality near Hazel Dell, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic Church of the Patronage of the Blessed Virgin Mary; named after Buchach, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Bukowina, Saskatchewan, south of Yellow Creek; German/Polish spelling of the Austrian crownland of Bukovyna – now Chernivtsi Oblast, Ukraine. Named by Bukovynian immigrant and postmaster John (Ivan) Fessiuk.[75]
    Byrtnyky was a locality between Kelvington and Endeavour, Saskatchewan named after one of three places named “Byrtnyky”[81] in Lviv Oblast.
    Dneiper, Saskatchewan, north of Rhein, after the Dnipro river.
    Dobrowody, Saskatchewan and the Dobrowody School District No. 2637, both northeast of Rama, Saskatchewan – a Ukrainian phrase meaning “good water”; after a village of the same name (“Dobrovody”)[57] in Pidhaitsi Raion, Ternopil Oblast, Ukraine.
    Drobot, Saskatchewan, north of Theodore, after Thomas Drobot – postmaster from 1909–1917.
    Halyary, Saskatchewan, southwest of Preeceville – a Postmaster General/Government of Canada misspelling of “Halychy”.[82]
    Halycry School District No. 2835, also southwest of Preeceville, Saskatchewan – a Department of Education misspelling of “Halychy”.[82]
    Havryliuky was a locality south of Prud’homme, Saskatchewan named after Nicholas Hawryluk (Nykola Havryliuk),[60] who donated part of his farmland for Sacred Heart of Jesus Ukrainian Catholic Church.
    Hryhoriw School District No. 2390 and the Ukrainian Catholic parish of St. Demetrius, Hryhoriw; both south of Preeceville, Saskatchewan – after Hryhoriv, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Hory (also called Carpenter-Hory) was a locality southwest of Wakaw, Saskatchewan centering on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of The Ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ – after the Ukrainian word for “mountains” (“hori”).
    Janow School District No. 2842 and Janow Corners, Saskatchewan, both south of Meath Park; after a village called “Yaniv” (now Ivano-Frankove),[72] in Yavoriv Raion, Lviv Oblast, Ukraine.
    Kalyna, Saskatchewan, and the Kalyna School District No. 3945, both south of Meath Park, Saskatchewan – after the Ukrainian word for the “highbush cranberry”.
    Kiev was a locality southwest of Rose Valley, Saskatchewan centered on a Ukrainian Orthodox Church; named after the capital city of Ukraine.
    Kobzar School District No. 3597 and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Holy Ascension, Arran-Kobzar; both south of Arran, Saskatchewan – after the book of poems by Taras Shevchenko.
    Kolo Pidskal’noho (or “Pidskalny’s”) was a locality west of Cudworth, Saskatchewan named after Ivan Pidskalny,[58] who donated part of his farmland to the Ukrainian Catholic parish of St. Demetrius for a church.
    Kolo Solomyanoho was a locality west of Cudworth, Saskatchewan named after Ivan Solomyany,[58] who donated part of his farmland for the (unspecified) Ukrainian Church of the Holy Transfiguration.
    Kowalowka School District No. 1739 and the Ukrainian Catholic Church of The Transfiguration, Kovalivka; both northeast of Canora, Saskatchewan – after Kovalivka, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    “Krassna” was a parish of German Roman Catholics[83] south of Leader, Saskatchewan – German spelling of Krasne, Izmail Raion, Odessa Oblast.
    Krim was a locality south of Aberdeen, Saskatchewan and is the German spelling of the Crimean peninsula – named by “Russian” Mennonites from the Taurida Governorate of the Russian Empire, now Ukraine.
    Kulykiv was a locality north of Invermay, Saskatchewan named after Kulykiv, Zhovkva Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Kvitka, Saskatchewan, south of Jedburgh, after Gregory (Hryhory) Kvitka (1778–1843), Ukrainian novelist.
    Kyziv-Tiaziv, Saskatchewan, south of Rama, after Tiaziv, Tysmenytsia Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.[84][85]
    Laniwci, Saskatchewan, and the Laniwci School District No. 2300, both west of Alvena, Saskatchewan – Polonized spelling of Lanivtsi, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Malonek, Saskatchewan, and the Malonek School District No. 3669, both northeast of Pelly, Saskatchewan; perhaps after “Malynivka”[62] – now Malinówka, Brzozów County, Poland.[24]
    New Yaroslau, the name of a Ukrainian block settlement northeast of Yorkton, Saskatchewan; after the ancient city of Yaroslav – now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Orolow, Saskatchewan (also called “Teshliuk’s”),[81] south of Krydor – Polonized misspelling of Ordiv, Radekhiv Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Rebryna was a locality northeast of Hafford, Saskatchewan centered on the “Redberry Ivan Franko Library and Hall”, named after Paul (Pavlo) Rebryna.[60]
    Sich School District No. 3454, the Sich community hall and the Ukrainian Catholic parish of St. Michael, “Krydor Sich”; all west of Blaine Lake, Saskatchewan – after the fortresses of the Ukrainian Cossacks.
    Sokal, Saskatchewan, and the Sokal School District No. 1955, both west of Wakaw, Saskatchewan – named after Sokal, Sokal Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Stanislavtsi was a locality south of Foam Lake, Saskatchewan named after Stanislaviv (now Ivano-Frankivsk), Ukraine; also the location of the “Michael Hrushewski” community hall.
    Vasyliv (or “Kolo Vasyleva”) was a locality south of Buchanan, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of Saints Constantine and Helena; named after “N. Wasyliw”.[58]
    Vorobceve was a locality just west of Krydor, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic Church of St. Demetrius; named after the Worobetz family.[86]
    Walawa, Saskatchewan, west of Theodore; Polonized spelling of “Valiava” – now in Przemyśl County, Poland.[24]
    Welechko (or “Bilya Velychka”) was a locality south of Hafford, Saskatchewan, named after Ivan Welechko[60] – who donated part of his farmland to the Ukrainian Catholic parish of The Presentation for a church; also the location of the “Taras Shewchenko” community hall.

    Manitoba

    Dneiper, Manitoba[87] (renamed “Fishing River”), east of Ukraina and northeast of Sifton – after the Dnipro river.
    Komarno, Manitoba, the Ukrainian word for “mosquito” – possibly after Komarno, Horodok Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Prawda, Manitoba, southeast of Hadashville on the eastbound lanes of the Trans-Canada Highway; a Polonized spelling of the Ukrainian (and Russian) word pravda, “truth”.
    Szewczenko, Manitoba (renamed “Vita”), west of Stuartburn on Provincial Road 201; a Polonized spelling of Taras Shevchenko’s last name.
    Trembowla, Manitoba, northwest of Dauphin on Provincial Road 491; the Polish spelling of Terebovlia, Terebovlya Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Ukraina, Manitoba,[88] southeast of Ethelbert and northwest of Sifton on Provincial Road 273; a phonetic spelling of “Ukraine” in the Ukrainian language.
    Zhoda, Manitoba, north of Vita and southeast of Steinbach on Highway 12; the Ukrainian word for “harmony”.
    Halicz, Manitoba,[89] northwest of Trembowla and north of Ashville near Highway 10 – a Polonized spelling of Halych, a historic Ukrainian city in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.
    Horod, Manitoba, north of Elphinstone on Provincial Road 354, near the south boundary of Riding Mountain National Park – the Ukrainian word for “city”.
    Jaroslaw, Manitoba, southwest of Hnausa; the Polish name of the city of Yaroslav, now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Kulish, Manitoba, northwest of Ethelbert; after Panteleimon Kulish (1819–1897).
    Medika, Manitoba, north of Hadashville on Provincial Road 507 – after Medyka on the present Polish-Ukrainian border.[24]
    Melnice, Manitoba, west of Dunnottar and southwest of Winnipeg Beach, at the junction of Highway 8 and Provincial Road 225 – the Ukrainian word for “windmill”.[90]
    Okno, Manitoba, northwest of Riverton near Shorncliffe – the Ukrainian word for “window”.
    Oleskiw, Manitoba,[91] west of Stuartburn on Provincial Road 201; after Dr. Joseph Oleskiw (1860–1903) – author of the pamphlets “On Free Lands” (Pro Vilni Zemli, spring 1895),[20][21] and “On Emigration” (O emigratsiy, December 1895).[22]
    Olha, Manitoba,[91] east of Rossburn and north of Oakburn on Provincial Road 577; from female given name Olha (c.f. Russian “Olga”) – possibly after Princess Olha (c. 890–969).
    Ozerna, Manitoba, southeast of Erickson and northeast of Newdale – literally “lake district”.
    Petlura, Manitoba, at the junction of Provincial Road 366 and Provincial Road 584 near the north boundary of Riding Mountain National Park – after Ukrainian independence leader Symon Petliura (1879–1926).
    Ruthenia, Manitoba, northeast of Angusville and north of the Waywayseecappo townsite on Provincial Road 264, near the south boundary of Riding Mountain National Park – after the Austro-Hungarian name for the Ukrainian territories of Galicia, Bukovina, and Carpathian Ruthenia (now Transcarpathian Oblast).
    Seech, Manitoba, east of Olha and northwest of Elphinstone, near the south boundary of Riding Mountain National Park – a phonetic misspelling of the Ukrainian word “sich”; after the fortresses of the Ukrainian Cossacks.
    Senkiw, Manitoba, northwest of Roseau River and southwest of Rosa – possibly after a local family.
    Sirko, Manitoba,[92] south of Sundown near the Minnesota border – possibly after the Ukrainian Cossack leader Ivan Sirko (c. 1610–1680).
    Vidir, Manitoba, northwest of Arborg on Provincial Road 233 – ?.
    Zbaraz, Manitoba, southeast of Fisher Branch and northwest of Arborg on Provincial Road 329 – a phonetic spelling of Zbarazh, Zbarazh Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Zelana, Manitoba, northeast of Ukraina and east of Ethelbert on Provincial Road 269 – a misspelling of the Ukrainian word for “green” (zelena).
    Zelena, Manitoba, northeast of Makaroff and west of the junction of Provincial Road 594 and Highway 83 – the Ukrainian word for “green”.
    Zoria, Manitoba,[93] east of Sifton off Highway 10 – the Ukrainian word for “dawn”.

    :::::::::::::::::

    Not many places in the USA because unlike in Canada, Ukrainians came into already-settled and named places in the USA.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP


    Marie Yovanovitch is not a diaspora Ukrainian but an ethnic Russian from an anti-Soviet ethnic Russian family.

     

    Did you see her DNA result?

    Replies: @AP

    , @Gerard-Mandela
    @AP


    I decided to look this up.
     
    LOL...err no. After multiple times of me ridiculing you over this fact, you have been endlessly "researching" it every week for the last few months just like you do on everything else. You have then come across this horses**t from the absurd propaganda nonsense Unian and intentionally promoted this disinfo because it is the only thing there which you could have edited ( - which is obviously fake information, has no common sense to it and contradicts every single Russian and Ukrainian language page on this issue..and you have certainly gone past 100 links saying the opposite of your BS) ..add to this the fact you have serious problems

    For the last 30 years, the top names in Kiev and Moscow...or just Ukraine and Russia, have been identical. To any non-moron this is absolute, easy fact:

    https://iz.ru/1041307/2020-07-29/nazvany-samye-populiarnye-imena-dlia-novorozhdennykh-v-iiune-v-moskve


    https://kiev.vgorode.ua/news/sobytyia/402196-veselyna-y-rafael-nazvany-samye-populiarnye-ymena-novorozhdennykh-v-kyeve


    https://www.rbc.ua/rus/styler/ukraine-nazvali-samye-populyarnye-imena-detey-1593035208.html


    https://focus.ua/ukraine/415765-nazvany-samye-populyarnye-imena-dlya-novorozhdennyx-v-kieve


    https://iz.ru/967014/2020-01-22/nazvany-samye-populiarnye-imena-novorozhdennykh-v-moskve-v-2019-godu


    https://bigkyiv.com.ua/v-kieve-nazvali-samye-populyarnye-imena-dlya-novorozhdennyh/


    Every single one of these links shows Aleksander,Artyom,Sofia,Maria,Anna,Alisa, Eva, Viktoria, Maksim,Dmitry , mikhail,maksim, dmitry as the most popular names every year in Kiev/Moscow and the two countries. Taking links from 2000 onwards, or newspapers from 1991 - it completely reinforces this obvious point even more. It's not something I had even thought about before - but after 30 years that type of fact subconsciously builds-up in the brain from own experiences and the media writing this story at the end of each year.
    Even more amusingly ....as Mark has become more popular in Moscow/Russia...it has identically become more popular in - Ukraine/Kiev
    As Anastasia still remains very popular, just not as popular as before in Russia - the same trend is observed in Banderastan. Sofia is always number 1 for girls, Alexander or Artyom for boys
    Belarus doesn't even have such similar trends with Russia. Even more amusing? "Traditional" , distinctive Ukrainian names are nowhere on the list!

    But it get's better:


    Solomiya
    Maria
    Varvara
    Milana
    Arina
     
    If anything exposes more what a clueless,fraud, sociopathic cretin you are, writing on things you know nothing about by instantaneously coming up with dishonest BS theories ( probably even worse than if I was trying to do keyhole surgery on myself just from reading on the internet , after 2 minutes) stemming not from any educated guess or knowledge...but solely from selectively promoting random garbage on the internet you have just looked at.....which even further exposes your lack of knowledge than before........then this is worse than even the infamous mir/Svet abomination.

    Absolutely NOBODY in Ukraine or Russia would call it even close to plausible of Solomiya being in the top 5 names, not in top 10 names, nowhere near top 20 or 30 names.....it's near certainly not even in the top 50 names . It is in the same league of dumbness as thinking that "Geronimo" is the most common name for WASP's in America. It is just something that even the most extreme Khokhols on the planet would never endorse. Solomia is a pleasant name in the same way some white Americans may smile at the most flamboyant negro name, but a very small percentage of them would ever want to name their child that. I suspect even Mr Hack would agree with me. You are literally the definition of dishonest and stupid.

    Varvara, though certainly not a rare name...it is idiotic to think of it as in top 5 or top 10 names. Again, if you have even the remotest experience with Ukraine then you would never link garbage claiming Solomiya as popular and think twice about Varvara in there

    Next topic. I said:


    1.there is no “distinct community” of Ukrainian diaspora. There is post-ww2 psychopaths smuggled out of the country by the CIA and MI6 in the 1940’s and 50s, who lived in closed communities and are nothing other than subhumans who represent all of the “Ukraine” movement.
     
    You said

    The Ukrainian National Association (UNA) (Ukrainian: Український народний союз) is a North American fraternal organization founded in Shamokin, Pennsylvania on February 22, 1894 when the first wave of immigrants from the Western regions of Ukraine came to the United States and Canada.

    Originally called the Ruthenian National Union (Ukrainian: Руський Народний Союз), it was partly established to counter the influence of the Hungarian-oriented Greek Catholic Union of the USA.[1] The Union adopted the newspaper Svoboda (Liberty) as its organ and sought to develop a distinctly Ukrainian identity.[1] It offered to provide for material needs, such as funeral expenses and care for destitute members while also promoting Ukrainian culture.[2][3]
     

    Read carefully you idiot. I'm am not interested in some nothing, irrelevant organisation you have just randomly searched on the internet. Diaspora as I write it - implies relation to present tense of the word, and the community as it now functions i.e 100% CIA Banderetard from 40s/50s . This pattern is obvious in ALL the prominent figures in North American pseudo-ukrop community - Yaresko, Suprun( and her husband and brother), Freedland,Yuschenko, Plaviuk,Czolij,Bociurkiw,Waschuk and 100's more . Every single one of these excrement is WW2/Post-WW2 Banderetards with the majority of them in families that lived most of the postwar 40's early 50's in Germany before being smuggled by the CIA into North America
    Every organisation in North America is run by Banderetards, not post WW1/19th century diaspora. They (ww1/19thC) are nowhere in ukrop nationalist movements in US and Canada - it is all Nazi filth. Probably because Austrian Intelligience is not at level it once was.LOL.

    "Academia" of "Ukrainian" culture and history existed f**k all in America until the late 60's/1970's - it was entirely created by OUN/Banderites a safe amount of time after being smuggled by the CIA and having families. Absolutely nothing from 19th, early 20th century diaspora that lead to any Ukrainian academic Institutions formed in US. Academia appears to have been a front for these scum to hide themselves for a few decades - so it's no coincidence that they only formed officially more than a generation after their despicable acts in the war.
    What is even more Banderetard than academia?.......the Ukrop church in America. No contest.

    I repeat that this is highly abnormal.In US, pre Septermber 11th 2001, support for the IRA was lead not by IRA-members exclusively- it was a mixture of diaspora over the 150 years+ of Irish settlement in America. Jewish lobby is not dominated by Holocaust refugees.....but from jews of all eras from the pogroms to now. You have ukrop diaspora from 1880s,1890's, 1910's - they have 2,3,4 kids...they have children - if even 10% of these people keep their "culture" then they should be there at the front of the community, but they aren't.
    Smuggled CIA scum were dominating these groups as early as the 1950's - implausible given that immediate and first generation from 1910's and before should easily have been the dominant figures . 30 years from independence and a sizeable post-soviet emigration to US .....and these people want nothing to do w ith these subhumans and it is STILL run by Banderetard diaspora 70 years+ later!!!!

    Ukrainian nationalist organisations calling themselves

    Руський Народний Союз
     

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! What's that foreign language? "Seperate people" - LOL. Is that your cluelessness on the language exposed again?

    This is on top of a very sizeable part of Rusyns then (19th century) and now, have called and viewed themselves as Russian.

    But let's not worry, they renamed themselves as

    Український народний союз
     

    First use of the term "Ukrainian" was in Pskov and parts of the then southern border of Russia, for obvious reasons.

    Ruthenian of course was never used at all as a term in America you idiot. Perhaps only fringe, cultist, sub-Roma lunatics - but not by any local Americans and their media. Every single one/person calling them Malorossiyans. You could say "Ruthenian" was even less complied with than the abominable adherence to "Kyiv" instead of Kiev is now

    So ...they were called Malorossiyans or Russians, self-naming themselves as Russky , so that they can escape people thinking they are Russian(LOL), and Ukrop first called at people living in Pskov and south Russia.


    Plenty of your other points can be annihilated by quoting my


    in 19th century is bunch of stateless morons from Galicia and Romania, i.e those with no connection to land of “historical” Ukraine….not to mention should have zero connection to any anti-Russian movement, or anti-Soviet or “Golodomor” blabla etcetera. Even then, main part of Canada ukrops are from Banderetard/OUN era
     
    I will reply to rest of your nonsense when I can be bothere, bu this is quite comprehensive
  134. @AP
    @szopen

    Russia is in the exact same position as Poland. Poland is in the awkward position of being too big to be a "small nation" like Czechia or Slovakia or Hungary, but not quite big enough to be like Germany or France. Russia with its population, military and resources is too big to be like France or Germany, but not quite big or strong enough to play with the USA or China.

    Some Russians seek to "level up" their country by absorbing Ukraine and Belarus, but Ukrainians (and perhaps Belarussians) are unwilling. Hence the bitterness, sour grapes, wishing ill will, and strange fantasies by some Russian nationalists and Sovok nostalgists.

    Poland can "level up" by integrating with the Baltics, Ukraine, and Visegrad. It would be part of a collective partnership (albeit the wealthiest and therefore in the short to medium term the most influential of the major partners) that would easily be in the same league as a Germany or France. There is much less unwillingness on the part of Ukrainians and probably Balts to participate in such a project-partnership than there is to place themselves under Moscow's authority. A neo-PLC is more feasible than a neo-Russian Empire. Such an arrangement would mitigate the threat of Russian domination, resulting in negative feelings towards Russia fading away. At the same time, this large zone of "anti-liberal democracy" would be large and strong enough to resist Western cultural degeneration and to wait it out to see if the West recovers from its malaise.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @szopen

    I completely agree that the only way Poland, Ukraine and other small states to avoid the fate of being vassal of large countries is, in the long term, the cooperation. Poland+Ukraine would form a core of an alliance which would have decent potential. However, unfortunately this is, I’m affraid, completely unreal because of unreal attitudes of the only people who could back this alliance: ie. the nationalists. POlish nationalists are unreasonably hostile to Ukraine, partialy but not only because Ukrainians nationalists tend to deny Volhynia massacres and worship Bandera. OTOH a considerable part of Polish nationalists, in my experience, tend to take a position that we did absolutely nuffin’

    OTOH, the history is full of examples of formerly hostile states forming long-lasting alliances (e.g. Poland-Lithuania!).

  135. A small quibble here about this statement; “and Moldova would be a Romanian-Russian one, to extend the comparison”

    The comparison is not very apt, since the Russians arrived in Bessarabia (eastern half of historical Moldavia) after 1812, as occupiers, whereas in Ukraine and Belarus, nobody is disputing the existence of the Russo-Slav element from early on… also, the “intercourse” of the cultures was different, with Russians being on the bottom with respect to Polish and Lithuanians, but on the top whit respect to Romanians from Bessarabia…

  136. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    Also, while there are probably no major Russian groups as dull as South Italians, there are likewise no major Russian groups that are as bright as North Italians, who are not far off from the Swiss and South Germans - especially once one subtracts the latter's immigrants.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @RadicalCenter

    AK, as someone whose maternal ancestors hailed from the MIDDLE of Italy, I’m not sure how to feel about this comment 😉

    Seriously though, good luck and God’s blessings to my paisans and to our russian friends.

  137. @AP
    @Gerard-Mandela


    On a separate note. Top 5 newborn boy and girl names in Moscow and Kiev are exactly the same. “Separate people” ? Ridiculous
     
    I decided to look this up.

    You are, of course, totally wrong as usual. But thanks for providing the opportunity to note another divergence between Ukraine and Russia.

    Most popular names for boys and girls, Moscow:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090095/popular-male-newborn-first-names-moscow/

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090087/popular-female-newborn-first-names-moscow/

    Alexander
    Mikhail
    Maxim
    Artyom
    Ivan

    Sofia
    Maria
    Anna
    Alisa
    Viktoria

    Kiev:

    https://www.unian.info/society/10839098-justice-ministry-publishes-lists-of-most-popular-unusual-baby-names-in-central-ukraine-in-2019.html

    Alexander
    Dmytro
    Matviy
    Mark

    Solomiya
    Maria
    Varvara
    Milana
    Arina

    As for your Ukrainian diaspora nonsense:

    1.there is no “distinct community” of Ukrainian diaspora. There is post-ww2 psychopaths smuggled out of the country by the CIA and MI6 in the 1940’s and 50s, who lived in closed communities and are nothing other than subhumans who represent all of the “Ukraine” movement.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_National_Association

    The Ukrainian National Association (UNA) (Ukrainian: Український народний союз) is a North American fraternal organization founded in Shamokin, Pennsylvania on February 22, 1894 when the first wave of immigrants from the Western regions of Ukraine came to the United States and Canada.

    Originally called the Ruthenian National Union (Ukrainian: Руський Народний Союз), it was partly established to counter the influence of the Hungarian-oriented Greek Catholic Union of the USA.[1] The Union adopted the newspaper Svoboda (Liberty) as its organ and sought to develop a distinctly Ukrainian identity.[1] It offered to provide for material needs, such as funeral expenses and care for destitute members while also promoting Ukrainian culture.[2][3]

    The Union later changed its name to the Ukrainian National Association in order to assert a specifically Ukrainian ethnocultural identity.[1]

    Name change occurred in 1914.

    This Ukrainian Greek Catholic cathedral in Chicago was built in 1913:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/St._Nicholas_Ukrainian_Catholic_Cathedral_-_panoramio.jpg/800px-St._Nicholas_Ukrainian_Catholic_Cathedral_-_panoramio.jpg

    You find it strange how politically “sophisticated”Americans were too dumb to realise the lies and true implications when the gutter-whore US Ambassador to Ukraine ,Marie Yovanovitch, said at Trump’s impeachment :”My family escaped Communists, then they escaped Nazis” ?
     
    Marie Yovanovitch is not a diaspora Ukrainian but an ethnic Russian from an anti-Soviet ethnic Russian family.

    19th century emigration to US is entirely Russian world, viewed as Russian world and were called Russian by Americans then( just like “Ukrainians” in land now called Ukraine were still called “Russky” by Poles in the 16th and 17th centuries),
     
    They called themselves Rusyn, were from Galicia, and spoke a Galician dialect that was further from Russian than is standard Ukrainian.

    as for the post-Soviet emigration into the west , apart from those on Soros/Gosdep sponsored degrees and other faggot courses…there is absolutely no “Ukrainian separate from Russian” people – just highly skilled, hard-working people trying to get on with their lifes, often speaking Russian, not english , at home and not associating themselves with this Banderetard community
     
    Churches (both Greek Catholic and Orthodox), Ukrainian Saturday schools, and youth organizations are full of "off the boaters." Ironically these guys are often more hardcore Banderists than many of the grandchildren of the original Banderists, who have adopted the American embarrassment towards xenophobia that newcomers have not.

    As I have said before, where is the town or village in US or Canada named after a “Ukrainian” place that isn’t entirely Russian world and with the english translation of Russian spelling?Everyother nationality that settled in the New world before WW2 has a settlement named after a place of their homeland
     
    LOL. Another epic failure by you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_place_names_of_Ukrainian_origin



    Alberta:

    Bellis, Alberta, "white woods"; referring to poplars and birch.[1]
    Myrnam, Alberta, "peace to us"; from the Ukrainian word myr, "peace".[2]
    Slawa, Alberta, northeast of Myrnam on the Edmonton-to-Lloydminster branch line of the Canadian Pacific Railway[3] - Polonized spelling of the Ukrainian word "glory" (slava).
    Wasel, Alberta, west of Hamlin near the North Saskatchewan River on Highway 652[4] - Polonized spelling of the Ukrainian common name "Vasyl".
    Borsczow, Alberta,[33] northeast of Ryley on Secondary Highway 626; Polonized spelling of Borshchiv, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Buchach, Alberta, the Buczacz School District No. 2580,[8] and St. Nicholas Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (Hlus' Church), Buczacz; halfway between Innisfree and Musidora, Alberta off Secondary Highway 870 - from Buchach, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Halych, Alberta (located in Westlock County, east of Tawatinaw[34]), from Halych - the historic city in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast
    Ispas, Alberta,[35] southeast of Hamlin and northwest of Duvernay, Alberta on the south side of the North Saskatchewan River - after Ispas, Vyzhnytsia Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).
    Jaroslaw School District No. 1478,[29] the Descent of the Holy Spirit Ukrainian Catholic Church, Jaroslaw;[36] and St. Demitrius Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Jaroslaw;[37] all northeast of Bruderheim, Alberta on Highway 38 - the Polish name of the city of Yaroslav, now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Kolomea, Alberta and the Kolomea School District No. 1507,[38] both southeast of Mundare, Alberta - phonetic spelling of Kolomyia, Kolomyia Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.
    Lanuke, Alberta,[39] south of Two Hills off Highway 36 - possibly after a local family.
    Luzan, Alberta,[40] southwest of Andrew - after Luzhany, Kitsman Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovyna).
    Mazeppa, Alberta, northeast of High River and northwest of Blackie - the historical English spelling of the last name of Hetman Ivan Mazepa.
    New Kiew, Alberta and the Kiew School District No. 1693,[41] both north of Lavoy, Alberta off Secondary Highway 631 - German and Polish spelling of the capital city of Ukraine.
    Shalka, Alberta,[4] north of Hairy Hill off Secondary Highway 645; after postmaster Matt (Dmytro) Shalka.
    Shandro, Alberta, northeast of Andrew off Secondary Highway 857 near the North Saskatchewan River - after the Shandro family from "Rus'kyi Banyliv", Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).[42]
    Shepenge, Alberta, the Szypenitz School District No. 1470,[43] and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of St. Mary, Szypentiz; all northwest of Hairy Hill and northeast of Duvernay, Alberta off Secondary Highway 860 - after Shypyntsi, Kitsman Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).
    Shishkovitzi was a locality southwest of Hilliard and southeast of Chipman, Alberta centering on St. Mary's Holy Dormition Russo-Greek Orthodox Catholic Church[44] - named after Shyshkivtsi, Kitsman Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).
    Sniatyn, Alberta and the Sniatyn School District No. 1605,[45] both north of Andrew at the confluence of Limestone and Egg Creeks - after Sniatyn, Sniatyn Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast. Was originally named Hunka,[46] after a settler in the area from Bukovina, and located further upstream on Limestone Creek.
    Spaca Moskalyk was a locality northwest of Vegreville and northeast of Mundare, Alberta centered on the Transfiguration of Our Lord Ukrainian Catholic Church[47][48] - named after both Spas, Dolyna Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast, and the Moskalyk family who donated part of their farmland for the church.
    Stry, Alberta and the Stry School District No. 2508,[49] both southeast of Vilna and northeast of Hamlin, Alberta - after Stryi, Stryi Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Ukalta, Alberta, north of Wostok off Secondary Highway 855 near the North Saskatchewan River - possibly a combination of "Ukrayina" and "Alberta".
    Zawale, Alberta and the Zawale School District No. 1074,[50] both south of Wostok, Alberta off Highway 29 - Polonized misspelling of Zavalya, Sniatyn Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.

    Edmonton
    Neighbourhoods
    Baturyn, Edmonton, after Baturyn, a historic castle town in northeastern Ukraine (Bakhmatskyi Raion, Chernihiv Oblast).
    Oleskiw, Edmonton (formerly Wolf Willow Farms),[51] renamed in 1972 after Dr. Joseph Oleskiw (1860–1903), professor, writer and promoter of emigration.[22]
    Ozerna, Edmonton, literally "lake district".[51]
    Pylypow Industrial subdivision, after Ivan Pylypow,[51] early pioneer.[52]

    Saskatchewan

    Chorney Beach, Saskatchewan, a resort beach at Fishing Lake southeast of Wadena; possibly after a local family.
    Chortitz, Saskatchewan, south of Swift Current on Highway 379; German spelling of Khortytsia island, located in the Dnipro river now within the city of Zaporizhia, Ukraine - Saskatchewan hamlet named by "Russian" Mennonite immigrants.
    Dmytruk Lake, north of Cree Lake; after Peter Dmytruk of Wynyard, Saskatchewan (aka "Pierre le Canadien"), a member of the Royal Canadian Air Force who served with the French Resistance after being shot down near Paris in 1943.[55]
    Dneister, Saskatchewan (renamed "Hamton"),[56] northeast of Rhein on Highway 650; after the Dniester river.
    Krasne, Saskatchewan, west of Wishart, the Ukrainian word for "beautiful"; after a village in Pidvolochysk Raion,[57] Ternopil Oblast, Ukraine.
    Krydor, Saskatchewan, after Peter (Petro) Krysak and Teodor Lucyk, local settlers.
    Lemberg, Saskatchewan, German name for Lviv, Ukraine - Saskatchewan town named by ethnic Germans from Galicia.
    Leskiw Lake, southwest of Creighton, Saskatchewan; after Anthony Leskiw of Saskatoon, "lost at sea in October 1940 while serving aboard SS Whitford Point, torpedoed in the north Atlantic by a German submarine".[58]
    Odessa, Saskatchewan, after the city of Odessa, Ukraine - Saskatchewan village named by ethnic Germans from the neighbouring Bessarabia Governorate of the Russian Empire, which is today split between Moldova and Ukraine.
    Paniowce, Saskatchewan (renamed "Swan Plain"[59]), north of Norquay on Highway 8 - Polonized misspelling of Panivtsi Zelene, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Rak, Saskatchewan, northeast of Vonda on Highway 41 - after Joseph Rak[60] from Lanivtsi, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    St. Petro Mohyla Institute, Saskatoon, a private college for the study of the Ukrainian language, history and culture - after St. Petro Mohyla.
    St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Park, Saskatchewan, a campground owned by the Saskatoon branch of the Ukrainian Catholic Brotherhood of Canada; featuring a small Ukrainian Catholic church dedicated to St. Volodymyr.
    Tarnopol, Saskatchewan, Polonized spelling of Ternopil, Ternopil Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Whitkow, Saskatchewan, west of Mayfair on Highway 378, is an Anglo-Polonized spelling[61] of Vytkiv, Radekhiv Raion, Lviv Oblast.

    Adamiwka School District No. 1994 and the Ukrainian Catholic Church of the Descent of the Holy Ghost, Adamiwka;[78] both southeast of Rosthern, Saskatchewan - after "Adamivka",[79] now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Antoniwka was a locality north of Canora, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of the Assumption; named after Antonivka, Chortkiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    "Belyk's" was a locality north of Borden, Saskatchewan centered on the "Ivan Franko National Home" - built on Yurko Belyk's farmland[60] - and the Redberry Park rural post office; also the location of the Assumption of St. Mary Ukrainian Orthodox church.
    Beresina, Saskatchewan, northeast of Churchbridge; German spelling of "Berezyna" (now Rozdil[80] in Mykolaiv Raion), Lviv Oblast - Saskatchewan post office named by ethnic Germans from Galicia.
    Bobulynci was a locality southwest of Rose Valley, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of The Transfiguration - named after Bobulyntsi, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Bodnari (or "Kolo Bodnariv") was a locality northeast of Vonda, Saskatchewan named after Teodor Bodnar,[60] who donated part of his farmland to the Ukrainian Catholic parish of Saints Peter and Paul for a church.
    Buchach was a locality near Hazel Dell, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic Church of the Patronage of the Blessed Virgin Mary; named after Buchach, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Bukowina, Saskatchewan, south of Yellow Creek; German/Polish spelling of the Austrian crownland of Bukovyna - now Chernivtsi Oblast, Ukraine. Named by Bukovynian immigrant and postmaster John (Ivan) Fessiuk.[75]
    Byrtnyky was a locality between Kelvington and Endeavour, Saskatchewan named after one of three places named "Byrtnyky"[81] in Lviv Oblast.
    Dneiper, Saskatchewan, north of Rhein, after the Dnipro river.
    Dobrowody, Saskatchewan and the Dobrowody School District No. 2637, both northeast of Rama, Saskatchewan - a Ukrainian phrase meaning "good water"; after a village of the same name ("Dobrovody")[57] in Pidhaitsi Raion, Ternopil Oblast, Ukraine.
    Drobot, Saskatchewan, north of Theodore, after Thomas Drobot - postmaster from 1909–1917.
    Halyary, Saskatchewan, southwest of Preeceville - a Postmaster General/Government of Canada misspelling of "Halychy".[82]
    Halycry School District No. 2835, also southwest of Preeceville, Saskatchewan - a Department of Education misspelling of "Halychy".[82]
    Havryliuky was a locality south of Prud'homme, Saskatchewan named after Nicholas Hawryluk (Nykola Havryliuk),[60] who donated part of his farmland for Sacred Heart of Jesus Ukrainian Catholic Church.
    Hryhoriw School District No. 2390 and the Ukrainian Catholic parish of St. Demetrius, Hryhoriw; both south of Preeceville, Saskatchewan - after Hryhoriv, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Hory (also called Carpenter-Hory) was a locality southwest of Wakaw, Saskatchewan centering on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of The Ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ - after the Ukrainian word for "mountains" ("hori").
    Janow School District No. 2842 and Janow Corners, Saskatchewan, both south of Meath Park; after a village called "Yaniv" (now Ivano-Frankove),[72] in Yavoriv Raion, Lviv Oblast, Ukraine.
    Kalyna, Saskatchewan, and the Kalyna School District No. 3945, both south of Meath Park, Saskatchewan - after the Ukrainian word for the "highbush cranberry".
    Kiev was a locality southwest of Rose Valley, Saskatchewan centered on a Ukrainian Orthodox Church; named after the capital city of Ukraine.
    Kobzar School District No. 3597 and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Holy Ascension, Arran-Kobzar; both south of Arran, Saskatchewan - after the book of poems by Taras Shevchenko.
    Kolo Pidskal'noho (or "Pidskalny's") was a locality west of Cudworth, Saskatchewan named after Ivan Pidskalny,[58] who donated part of his farmland to the Ukrainian Catholic parish of St. Demetrius for a church.
    Kolo Solomyanoho was a locality west of Cudworth, Saskatchewan named after Ivan Solomyany,[58] who donated part of his farmland for the (unspecified) Ukrainian Church of the Holy Transfiguration.
    Kowalowka School District No. 1739 and the Ukrainian Catholic Church of The Transfiguration, Kovalivka; both northeast of Canora, Saskatchewan - after Kovalivka, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    "Krassna" was a parish of German Roman Catholics[83] south of Leader, Saskatchewan - German spelling of Krasne, Izmail Raion, Odessa Oblast.
    Krim was a locality south of Aberdeen, Saskatchewan and is the German spelling of the Crimean peninsula - named by "Russian" Mennonites from the Taurida Governorate of the Russian Empire, now Ukraine.
    Kulykiv was a locality north of Invermay, Saskatchewan named after Kulykiv, Zhovkva Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Kvitka, Saskatchewan, south of Jedburgh, after Gregory (Hryhory) Kvitka (1778–1843), Ukrainian novelist.
    Kyziv-Tiaziv, Saskatchewan, south of Rama, after Tiaziv, Tysmenytsia Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.[84][85]
    Laniwci, Saskatchewan, and the Laniwci School District No. 2300, both west of Alvena, Saskatchewan - Polonized spelling of Lanivtsi, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Malonek, Saskatchewan, and the Malonek School District No. 3669, both northeast of Pelly, Saskatchewan; perhaps after "Malynivka"[62] - now Malinówka, Brzozów County, Poland.[24]
    New Yaroslau, the name of a Ukrainian block settlement northeast of Yorkton, Saskatchewan; after the ancient city of Yaroslav - now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Orolow, Saskatchewan (also called "Teshliuk's"),[81] south of Krydor - Polonized misspelling of Ordiv, Radekhiv Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Rebryna was a locality northeast of Hafford, Saskatchewan centered on the "Redberry Ivan Franko Library and Hall", named after Paul (Pavlo) Rebryna.[60]
    Sich School District No. 3454, the Sich community hall and the Ukrainian Catholic parish of St. Michael, "Krydor Sich"; all west of Blaine Lake, Saskatchewan - after the fortresses of the Ukrainian Cossacks.
    Sokal, Saskatchewan, and the Sokal School District No. 1955, both west of Wakaw, Saskatchewan - named after Sokal, Sokal Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Stanislavtsi was a locality south of Foam Lake, Saskatchewan named after Stanislaviv (now Ivano-Frankivsk), Ukraine; also the location of the "Michael Hrushewski" community hall.
    Vasyliv (or "Kolo Vasyleva") was a locality south of Buchanan, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of Saints Constantine and Helena; named after "N. Wasyliw".[58]
    Vorobceve was a locality just west of Krydor, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic Church of St. Demetrius; named after the Worobetz family.[86]
    Walawa, Saskatchewan, west of Theodore; Polonized spelling of "Valiava" - now in Przemyśl County, Poland.[24]
    Welechko (or "Bilya Velychka") was a locality south of Hafford, Saskatchewan, named after Ivan Welechko[60] - who donated part of his farmland to the Ukrainian Catholic parish of The Presentation for a church; also the location of the "Taras Shewchenko" community hall.

    Manitoba

    Dneiper, Manitoba[87] (renamed "Fishing River"), east of Ukraina and northeast of Sifton - after the Dnipro river.
    Komarno, Manitoba, the Ukrainian word for "mosquito" - possibly after Komarno, Horodok Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Prawda, Manitoba, southeast of Hadashville on the eastbound lanes of the Trans-Canada Highway; a Polonized spelling of the Ukrainian (and Russian) word pravda, "truth".
    Szewczenko, Manitoba (renamed "Vita"), west of Stuartburn on Provincial Road 201; a Polonized spelling of Taras Shevchenko's last name.
    Trembowla, Manitoba, northwest of Dauphin on Provincial Road 491; the Polish spelling of Terebovlia, Terebovlya Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Ukraina, Manitoba,[88] southeast of Ethelbert and northwest of Sifton on Provincial Road 273; a phonetic spelling of "Ukraine" in the Ukrainian language.
    Zhoda, Manitoba, north of Vita and southeast of Steinbach on Highway 12; the Ukrainian word for "harmony".
    Halicz, Manitoba,[89] northwest of Trembowla and north of Ashville near Highway 10 - a Polonized spelling of Halych, a historic Ukrainian city in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.
    Horod, Manitoba, north of Elphinstone on Provincial Road 354, near the south boundary of Riding Mountain National Park - the Ukrainian word for "city".
    Jaroslaw, Manitoba, southwest of Hnausa; the Polish name of the city of Yaroslav, now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Kulish, Manitoba, northwest of Ethelbert; after Panteleimon Kulish (1819–1897).
    Medika, Manitoba, north of Hadashville on Provincial Road 507 - after Medyka on the present Polish-Ukrainian border.[24]
    Melnice, Manitoba, west of Dunnottar and southwest of Winnipeg Beach, at the junction of Highway 8 and Provincial Road 225 - the Ukrainian word for "windmill".[90]
    Okno, Manitoba, northwest of Riverton near Shorncliffe - the Ukrainian word for "window".
    Oleskiw, Manitoba,[91] west of Stuartburn on Provincial Road 201; after Dr. Joseph Oleskiw (1860–1903) - author of the pamphlets "On Free Lands" (Pro Vilni Zemli, spring 1895),[20][21] and "On Emigration" (O emigratsiy, December 1895).[22]
    Olha, Manitoba,[91] east of Rossburn and north of Oakburn on Provincial Road 577; from female given name Olha (c.f. Russian "Olga") - possibly after Princess Olha (c. 890–969).
    Ozerna, Manitoba, southeast of Erickson and northeast of Newdale - literally "lake district".
    Petlura, Manitoba, at the junction of Provincial Road 366 and Provincial Road 584 near the north boundary of Riding Mountain National Park - after Ukrainian independence leader Symon Petliura (1879–1926).
    Ruthenia, Manitoba, northeast of Angusville and north of the Waywayseecappo townsite on Provincial Road 264, near the south boundary of Riding Mountain National Park - after the Austro-Hungarian name for the Ukrainian territories of Galicia, Bukovina, and Carpathian Ruthenia (now Transcarpathian Oblast).
    Seech, Manitoba, east of Olha and northwest of Elphinstone, near the south boundary of Riding Mountain National Park - a phonetic misspelling of the Ukrainian word "sich"; after the fortresses of the Ukrainian Cossacks.
    Senkiw, Manitoba, northwest of Roseau River and southwest of Rosa - possibly after a local family.
    Sirko, Manitoba,[92] south of Sundown near the Minnesota border - possibly after the Ukrainian Cossack leader Ivan Sirko (c. 1610–1680).
    Vidir, Manitoba, northwest of Arborg on Provincial Road 233 - ?.
    Zbaraz, Manitoba, southeast of Fisher Branch and northwest of Arborg on Provincial Road 329 - a phonetic spelling of Zbarazh, Zbarazh Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Zelana, Manitoba, northeast of Ukraina and east of Ethelbert on Provincial Road 269 - a misspelling of the Ukrainian word for "green" (zelena).
    Zelena, Manitoba, northeast of Makaroff and west of the junction of Provincial Road 594 and Highway 83 - the Ukrainian word for "green".
    Zoria, Manitoba,[93] east of Sifton off Highway 10 - the Ukrainian word for "dawn".

    :::::::::::::::::

    Not many places in the USA because unlike in Canada, Ukrainians came into already-settled and named places in the USA.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Gerard-Mandela

    Marie Yovanovitch is not a diaspora Ukrainian but an ethnic Russian from an anti-Soviet ethnic Russian family.

    Did you see her DNA result?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail

    Just read her bio

    Replies: @Mikhail

  138. @Mikhail
    @AP


    Marie Yovanovitch is not a diaspora Ukrainian but an ethnic Russian from an anti-Soviet ethnic Russian family.

     

    Did you see her DNA result?

    Replies: @AP

    Just read her bio

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP

    Written by who?

    Replies: @AP

  139. @AP
    @Mikhail

    Just read her bio

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Written by who?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail

    NY times has some details:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/us/politics/yovanovitch-trump-ukraine-ambassador.html

    She goes by Masha, grew up speaking Russian. Her father is Mikhail her mother is Nadia Theokritoff per wiki. Vlasovites?

    Replies: @AP, @Gerard.Gerard

  140. @Mikhail
    @AP

    Written by who?

    Replies: @AP

    NY times has some details:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/us/politics/yovanovitch-trump-ukraine-ambassador.html

    She goes by Masha, grew up speaking Russian. Her father is Mikhail her mother is Nadia Theokritoff per wiki. Vlasovites?

    • Replies: @AP
    @AP

    Marie Yovanovitch's family are on a geneological website. Her mother Nadia Theokritoff was born in 1928 in Germany, clearly the child of a White Russian emigre. Bio of Nadia's father:

    A church choir master "highly regarded in Russian choral circles," Michael Theokritoff was born to a traditional church family in a small town southeast of Moscow. He lived in Russia until after the Revolution, then in Wiesbaden, Germany, where he became choir master of a local Russian church and married soprano Luise Stanscheck. With the coming of Hitler, he lost his job and faced other hardships. After the collapse of Germany, he relocated to London.

    Her father Mikhail Yovanovitch was born in Chita, Russia (Siberia) in 1921 but escaped to the West and was able to avoid repatriation. Circumstances not discussed. Could be a Vlasovite.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    , @Gerard.Gerard
    @AP

    LOL- I was just about to type asserting that you were, again, bulls*itting (delayed because of laughing at the overload of uninformed garbage in your reply to my previous comment)..... only for you to self-confirm that you were again bulls*itting!

    You have no idea where she is from,
    don't have any "diaspora-knowledge" from your fantasies on if she is or isn't part of North American ukrop community before she worked for Gosdep... . and probable had not heard of her before I mentioned her. As you are full of sh*t and completely untrustable....a link to the genealogy you used all-night to look for?

    Could she be a Vlasovite? I don't see it. Russian authorities, media and ukrop media have never mentioned it. Vlasovites would be much simple to trace than many OUN or UPA scum, many expatriates only known because they openly admitted it.
    I wasn't aware of any Vlasovites who escaped to US, though if they did that would probably still be classified information even now. I don't see Vlasovites showing a deep, pathological hatred to the modern Russian state- they are not like the psychopathic, rabid, loser, cursed-in hell permanently Banderastan migrants. Neither would I expect this gutter-whore to work in Gosdep in Ukraine for 20 years, helping set-up 2 anti-russian "revolutions" and numerous svidomite policies.

    White Russian emigrees who having not been able to make money in Russia during Yeltsin era, or were prevented from making exploitative deal when Putin became president (and hate modern Russia/Putin because of this) do exist... but it doesn't fit her profile...... though everything about this tramp does fit profile of Banderetard.

    Anyway, as I was mentioning, dumb Americans too thick to realise the true implications and total BS of Yovanovich saying "my family fled Soviets then fled the Nazis".... are shameful

    Replies: @AP, @Mikhail

  141. @AP
    @Mikhail

    NY times has some details:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/us/politics/yovanovitch-trump-ukraine-ambassador.html

    She goes by Masha, grew up speaking Russian. Her father is Mikhail her mother is Nadia Theokritoff per wiki. Vlasovites?

    Replies: @AP, @Gerard.Gerard

    Marie Yovanovitch’s family are on a geneological website. Her mother Nadia Theokritoff was born in 1928 in Germany, clearly the child of a White Russian emigre. Bio of Nadia’s father:

    A church choir master “highly regarded in Russian choral circles,” Michael Theokritoff was born to a traditional church family in a small town southeast of Moscow. He lived in Russia until after the Revolution, then in Wiesbaden, Germany, where he became choir master of a local Russian church and married soprano Luise Stanscheck. With the coming of Hitler, he lost his job and faced other hardships. After the collapse of Germany, he relocated to London.

    Her father Mikhail Yovanovitch was born in Chita, Russia (Siberia) in 1921 but escaped to the West and was able to avoid repatriation. Circumstances not discussed. Could be a Vlasovite.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP


    Her father Mikhail Yovanovitch was born in Chita, Russia (Siberia) in 1921 but escaped to the West and was able to avoid repatriation. Circumstances not discussed. Could be a Vlasovite.

     

    So there's no misunderstanding, I was being sarcastic on the DNA inquiry I brought up. Can you delve further into Mikhail Yovanovitch's roots? Recall an exchange regarding Natalie Wood.

    Replies: @AP

  142. Poll on attitudes towards Ukrainian language laws in Ukraine (contrast to feelings in Belarus about their native language):

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=960&page=1

    “Do you agree or disagree with the opinion that the state should promote the further implementation of the Law on Language in all areas? ”

    In Ukraine as a whole, 36% completely agree, 30% somewhat agree, 12% somewhat disagree, 8% completely disagree, 13% “difficult to say.”

    Support outnumbers opposition in every region, including the East. Although opposition in the East is at 28% vs. 12% in the West. If you assume “difficult to say” is covert opposition and add it to the opposition total, opposition goes up to 42% in the East – still under 50%.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Yea, next thing you’d believe that Luka got 80% in Belarus elections. It’s the “official” number, with the same credibility as the numbers you cite.

    Replies: @AP

  143. @AP
    Poll on attitudes towards Ukrainian language laws in Ukraine (contrast to feelings in Belarus about their native language):

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=960&page=1

    "Do you agree or disagree with the opinion that the state should promote the further implementation of the Law on Language in all areas? "

    In Ukraine as a whole, 36% completely agree, 30% somewhat agree, 12% somewhat disagree, 8% completely disagree, 13% "difficult to say."

    Support outnumbers opposition in every region, including the East. Although opposition in the East is at 28% vs. 12% in the West. If you assume "difficult to say" is covert opposition and add it to the opposition total, opposition goes up to 42% in the East - still under 50%.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Yea, next thing you’d believe that Luka got 80% in Belarus elections. It’s the “official” number, with the same credibility as the numbers you cite.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN

    The problem is that you are the one with the pattern of making or repeating claims as fantastic as Lukashenka getting 80% of the vote.

  144. @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Yea, next thing you’d believe that Luka got 80% in Belarus elections. It’s the “official” number, with the same credibility as the numbers you cite.

    Replies: @AP

    The problem is that you are the one with the pattern of making or repeating claims as fantastic as Lukashenka getting 80% of the vote.

  145. @AP
    @Mikhail

    NY times has some details:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/us/politics/yovanovitch-trump-ukraine-ambassador.html

    She goes by Masha, grew up speaking Russian. Her father is Mikhail her mother is Nadia Theokritoff per wiki. Vlasovites?

    Replies: @AP, @Gerard.Gerard

    LOL- I was just about to type asserting that you were, again, bulls*itting (delayed because of laughing at the overload of uninformed garbage in your reply to my previous comment)….. only for you to self-confirm that you were again bulls*itting!

    You have no idea where she is from,
    don’t have any “diaspora-knowledge” from your fantasies on if she is or isn’t part of North American ukrop community before she worked for Gosdep… . and probable had not heard of her before I mentioned her. As you are full of sh*t and completely untrustable….a link to the genealogy you used all-night to look for?

    Could she be a Vlasovite? I don’t see it. Russian authorities, media and ukrop media have never mentioned it. Vlasovites would be much simple to trace than many OUN or UPA scum, many expatriates only known because they openly admitted it.
    I wasn’t aware of any Vlasovites who escaped to US, though if they did that would probably still be classified information even now. I don’t see Vlasovites showing a deep, pathological hatred to the modern Russian state- they are not like the psychopathic, rabid, loser, cursed-in hell permanently Banderastan migrants. Neither would I expect this gutter-whore to work in Gosdep in Ukraine for 20 years, helping set-up 2 anti-russian “revolutions” and numerous svidomite policies.

    White Russian emigrees who having not been able to make money in Russia during Yeltsin era, or were prevented from making exploitative deal when Putin became president (and hate modern Russia/Putin because of this) do exist… but it doesn’t fit her profile…… though everything about this tramp does fit profile of Banderetard.

    Anyway, as I was mentioning, dumb Americans too thick to realise the true implications and total BS of Yovanovich saying “my family fled Soviets then fled the Nazis”…. are shameful

    • Replies: @AP
    @Gerard.Gerard

    Tell us again about no Ukrainian place names in Canada lol.

    I already posted her family’s biography. Her maternal grandfather was born outside of Moscow and was a choir director at an Orthodox Church in Germany after he fled during the Revolution. As such, he and his descendants are far superior to you. Hence, your embarrassing bitterness and rage.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

    , @Mikhail
    @Gerard.Gerard

    Some did. John Demyanyuk had a stint with them. Also:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo-Diveevo#/media/File:%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%89%D0%B5_%D0%B2_%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE-%D0%94%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5_(13370867853).jpg

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

  146. @Gerard.Gerard
    @AP

    LOL- I was just about to type asserting that you were, again, bulls*itting (delayed because of laughing at the overload of uninformed garbage in your reply to my previous comment)..... only for you to self-confirm that you were again bulls*itting!

    You have no idea where she is from,
    don't have any "diaspora-knowledge" from your fantasies on if she is or isn't part of North American ukrop community before she worked for Gosdep... . and probable had not heard of her before I mentioned her. As you are full of sh*t and completely untrustable....a link to the genealogy you used all-night to look for?

    Could she be a Vlasovite? I don't see it. Russian authorities, media and ukrop media have never mentioned it. Vlasovites would be much simple to trace than many OUN or UPA scum, many expatriates only known because they openly admitted it.
    I wasn't aware of any Vlasovites who escaped to US, though if they did that would probably still be classified information even now. I don't see Vlasovites showing a deep, pathological hatred to the modern Russian state- they are not like the psychopathic, rabid, loser, cursed-in hell permanently Banderastan migrants. Neither would I expect this gutter-whore to work in Gosdep in Ukraine for 20 years, helping set-up 2 anti-russian "revolutions" and numerous svidomite policies.

    White Russian emigrees who having not been able to make money in Russia during Yeltsin era, or were prevented from making exploitative deal when Putin became president (and hate modern Russia/Putin because of this) do exist... but it doesn't fit her profile...... though everything about this tramp does fit profile of Banderetard.

    Anyway, as I was mentioning, dumb Americans too thick to realise the true implications and total BS of Yovanovich saying "my family fled Soviets then fled the Nazis".... are shameful

    Replies: @AP, @Mikhail

    Tell us again about no Ukrainian place names in Canada lol.

    I already posted her family’s biography. Her maternal grandfather was born outside of Moscow and was a choir director at an Orthodox Church in Germany after he fled during the Revolution. As such, he and his descendants are far superior to you. Hence, your embarrassing bitterness and rage.

    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
    @AP


    Tell us again about no Ukrainian place names in Canada lol.

     

    Hahahahaa! Are you serious? I've just made a masterpiece of a comment on ukrainian diaspora, completely impossible to criticise.....and a clown like you is misdirecting nonsense to coverup the hugely embarassing, argument-ending fact that there are ZERO non-Russian world , ukrainian place-names in USA, with the most embarassing BS! " The names for places were all allocated" is the most demented nonsense iin the history of the internet...that you have literally just made up instantaneously, not based on any guess, educated guess, or even inner conviction....but based on you being a sociopathic c***p desiring to waste time on the internet to occupy yourself. LOL

    The masterpiece comment was created very soon after the first great literary opera of the 21st century.....my comments about Poland to Anon2. As for your nonsense in initial post - when I can be bothered I will reply.

    I already posted her family’s biography. Her maternal grandfather was born outside of Moscow and was a choir director at an Orthodox Church in Germany after he fled during the Revolution
     
    For the first and probably only time in your existence...you have actually done something useful and provided interesting information! What confuses me is that you cannot in anyway speak or read Russian...so even accounting for Internet search methods, how did you get this link? Only explanation is likely a tipoff from somebody (most likely Karlin). As for Yovanovitch, no definitive conclusions on her background can be made at this time

    As such, he and his descendants are far superior to you. Hence, your embarrassing bitterness and rage
     
    LOL. Bizarre. So to add to your fantasist, lunatic "biography" , joining the claims of being Polish, Chechen, Austrian, eastern-Ukrainian, ....we have "White Russian" added into this farce

    Replies: @AP

  147. @Gerard.Gerard
    @AP

    LOL- I was just about to type asserting that you were, again, bulls*itting (delayed because of laughing at the overload of uninformed garbage in your reply to my previous comment)..... only for you to self-confirm that you were again bulls*itting!

    You have no idea where she is from,
    don't have any "diaspora-knowledge" from your fantasies on if she is or isn't part of North American ukrop community before she worked for Gosdep... . and probable had not heard of her before I mentioned her. As you are full of sh*t and completely untrustable....a link to the genealogy you used all-night to look for?

    Could she be a Vlasovite? I don't see it. Russian authorities, media and ukrop media have never mentioned it. Vlasovites would be much simple to trace than many OUN or UPA scum, many expatriates only known because they openly admitted it.
    I wasn't aware of any Vlasovites who escaped to US, though if they did that would probably still be classified information even now. I don't see Vlasovites showing a deep, pathological hatred to the modern Russian state- they are not like the psychopathic, rabid, loser, cursed-in hell permanently Banderastan migrants. Neither would I expect this gutter-whore to work in Gosdep in Ukraine for 20 years, helping set-up 2 anti-russian "revolutions" and numerous svidomite policies.

    White Russian emigrees who having not been able to make money in Russia during Yeltsin era, or were prevented from making exploitative deal when Putin became president (and hate modern Russia/Putin because of this) do exist... but it doesn't fit her profile...... though everything about this tramp does fit profile of Banderetard.

    Anyway, as I was mentioning, dumb Americans too thick to realise the true implications and total BS of Yovanovich saying "my family fled Soviets then fled the Nazis".... are shameful

    Replies: @AP, @Mikhail

    Some did. John Demyanyuk had a stint with them. Also:

    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
    @Mikhail

    Thanks for the name and the link Mikhail! I had no idea about that

    BTW I noticed you follow the english commentary on Russia - but would caution that most of it is substandard, often anti-patriotic and lazy garbage .I haven't watched RT in a long time because it is substandard liberast-run . From the little I have seen, Al Jazeera's coverage of Russia appears to be better and more professional. In english two of the main commentators from Russia seem to be Karaganov and Fyodor Lukyanov - they are just useless, nothing clowns with nothing interesting to say and with zero patriotism, perversely, as the western audience hearing them may be deceived into thinking they are "part of the Kremlin". Western journalists in Russia are of course dumb and corrupt. Gilbert Doctorow is a very clever man as a commentator with interesting insights - but does have some lazy deficiencies. Martyanov is an excellent blogger. Karlin deserves credit . But it is disgraceful that blogs are better than official, well-financed news. This worthless bum off the street that Karlin worships, 27khv,is some random, fake , virtual-signalling clown. It is incredible this fraud from Ireland is near the top of prolific english language "pro-russian" commentary.

    RT and most other useless commentators at "best-case" arguments are only:

    Invasion of Libya and Iraq was bad,
    dont be rude about Putin ( but never actually saying anything positive about him)
    ...and with absolutely nothing to differentiate the Russia from 2001 with the Russia of now..


    They spend 20 billion roubles per year on RT ...and none of them working there would even think it interesting to do some journalism on the background of this Nazi/Bandera bitch Yovanovitch?Particularly when she was in the news over this Impeachment thing? RT appears to do much cheap, sensationalist stuff for attention, a story about Yovanovitch would be interesting , sensationalist stuff....but they are just useless.

    I know you follow more the side of geopolitics and history, but the least worst option for english commentary on Russian stories I would recommend watching this guy, who puts some of his videos up in English:

    https://www.youtube.com/c/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F/videos

    Sure he is a crypto-liberast prick, and the conclusions to his videos are often stupid and lies......but they are excellently produced, detailed and even well- researched.

  148. @AP
    @AP

    Marie Yovanovitch's family are on a geneological website. Her mother Nadia Theokritoff was born in 1928 in Germany, clearly the child of a White Russian emigre. Bio of Nadia's father:

    A church choir master "highly regarded in Russian choral circles," Michael Theokritoff was born to a traditional church family in a small town southeast of Moscow. He lived in Russia until after the Revolution, then in Wiesbaden, Germany, where he became choir master of a local Russian church and married soprano Luise Stanscheck. With the coming of Hitler, he lost his job and faced other hardships. After the collapse of Germany, he relocated to London.

    Her father Mikhail Yovanovitch was born in Chita, Russia (Siberia) in 1921 but escaped to the West and was able to avoid repatriation. Circumstances not discussed. Could be a Vlasovite.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Her father Mikhail Yovanovitch was born in Chita, Russia (Siberia) in 1921 but escaped to the West and was able to avoid repatriation. Circumstances not discussed. Could be a Vlasovite.

    So there’s no misunderstanding, I was being sarcastic on the DNA inquiry I brought up. Can you delve further into Mikhail Yovanovitch’s roots? Recall an exchange regarding Natalie Wood.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail

    According to this:

    https://lenta.ru/lib/14174064/

    Her paternal grandfather was a Serb who had settled in Russia (her father was born in Siberia in 1921). It states that her father escaped from a POW camp during World War II. But generally there is little info about him.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  149. @Mikhail
    @AP


    Her father Mikhail Yovanovitch was born in Chita, Russia (Siberia) in 1921 but escaped to the West and was able to avoid repatriation. Circumstances not discussed. Could be a Vlasovite.

     

    So there's no misunderstanding, I was being sarcastic on the DNA inquiry I brought up. Can you delve further into Mikhail Yovanovitch's roots? Recall an exchange regarding Natalie Wood.

    Replies: @AP

    According to this:

    https://lenta.ru/lib/14174064/

    Her paternal grandfather was a Serb who had settled in Russia (her father was born in Siberia in 1921). It states that her father escaped from a POW camp during World War II. But generally there is little info about him.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP

    Okay. That surname can go various ways.

  150. @AP
    @Mikhail

    According to this:

    https://lenta.ru/lib/14174064/

    Her paternal grandfather was a Serb who had settled in Russia (her father was born in Siberia in 1921). It states that her father escaped from a POW camp during World War II. But generally there is little info about him.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Okay. That surname can go various ways.

  151. Both nice threads. “backwards”

  152. @Gerard-Mandela
    @Anatoly Karlin


    ask oneself, why did the Ukrainian diaspora become a distinct community in the first place, while the Belorussian one, to the extent it existed, almost entirely melded into the Russian one
     
    Quite simple.....

    1.there is no "distinct community" of Ukrainian diaspora. There is post-ww2 psychopaths smuggled out of the country by the CIA and MI6 in the 1940's and 50s, who lived in closed communities and are nothing other than subhumans who represent all of the "Ukraine" movement.

    You find it strange how politically "sophisticated"Americans were too dumb to realise the lies and true implications when the gutter-whore US Ambassador to Ukraine ,Marie Yovanovitch, said at Trump's impeachment :"My family escaped Communists, then they escaped Nazis" ?

    2.19th century emigration to US is entirely Russian world, viewed as Russian world and were called Russian by Americans then( just like "Ukrainians" in land now called Ukraine were still called "Russky" by Poles in the 16th and 17th centuries), their own flavour of Russianism is far less different than Californian jazz is from New York or New Orleans jazz - but just like they are still all American jazz, these immigrants identified as Russian world people. Canada immigration in 19th century is bunch of stateless morons from Galicia and Romania, i.e those with no connection to land of "historical" Ukraine....not to mention should have zero connection to any anti-Russian movement, or anti-Soviet or "Golodomor" blabla etcetera. Even then, main part of Canada ukrops are from Banderetard/OUN era

    3. as for the post-Soviet emigration into the west , apart from those on Soros/Gosdep sponsored degrees and other faggot courses...there is absolutely no "Ukrainian separate from Russian" people - just highly skilled, hard-working people trying to get on with their lifes, often speaking Russian, not english , at home and not associating themselves with this Banderetard community...though often acting as one with Russian expat or Soviet expat and having no problem with being called Russian

    4.Ask yourself, where is "Kyiv "or "Kyiff" in this "distinct community" for the last 150 years? LOL
    As I have said before, where is the town or village in US or Canada named after a "Ukrainian" place that isn't entirely Russian world and with the english translation of Russian spelling?Everyother nationality that settled in the New world before WW2 has a settlement named after a place of their homeland......all that is, except fake ukropia. Why would that be, dummy?

    5.Where is the Ukrop nationalist "intellectual" from the 19th , pre-Banderetard America. None at all

    6. You conflate ukrainian liberasts with Ukrainian nationalists. Most intelligentsia in Kiev are Russian speaking, standard liberast scum. All liberasts in Ukraine or Russia are superficially nationalists with an addiction to sucking c*ck of anti-Russian jewish liberasts and actually, extremely eager to jump on any "human rights abuse" or "cultural rights" train of any supposedly suffering kavkaz or other ethnic group in Russia as a way to slander the state...it's it as superficial as it possible - just as superficial as like Israeli-Vietnamese ( because of the young boys) troll Ano4 .In practise neither in Ukraine or Russia are actually nationalists - though for expediency during Euromaidan they gave the impression they had converged into "nationalists". You can see with people like Sentsov - they aren't ukrop nationalists in practise - he is just a fool who seems to have an Ekho Moskva view of Russia, not one based on interpersonal relationship.

    7. You can keep on pretending you didnt read it when I wrote that Ukrop has just released an 1000 gryvnia note featuring a guy:
    Born in Russia
    Died in Russia
    Educated in Russia
    Married a Russian,
    was Russian
    Kid a famous Russian historian

    8. On a separate note. Top 5 newborn boy and girl names in Moscow and Kiev are exactly the same. "Separate people" ? Ridiculous

    Replies: @AP, @Art Deco

    There is post-ww2 psychopaths smuggled out of the country by the CIA

    https://www.stjohnbaptistucc.com/

    This parish was founded in 1913. They have a mass which alternates between Ukrainian and English. Not able to attend anymore and I miss it.

  153. @Mikhail
    @Gerard.Gerard

    Some did. John Demyanyuk had a stint with them. Also:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo-Diveevo#/media/File:%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%89%D0%B5_%D0%B2_%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE-%D0%94%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5_(13370867853).jpg

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

    Thanks for the name and the link Mikhail! I had no idea about that

    BTW I noticed you follow the english commentary on Russia – but would caution that most of it is substandard, often anti-patriotic and lazy garbage .I haven’t watched RT in a long time because it is substandard liberast-run . From the little I have seen, Al Jazeera’s coverage of Russia appears to be better and more professional. In english two of the main commentators from Russia seem to be Karaganov and Fyodor Lukyanov – they are just useless, nothing clowns with nothing interesting to say and with zero patriotism, perversely, as the western audience hearing them may be deceived into thinking they are “part of the Kremlin”. Western journalists in Russia are of course dumb and corrupt. Gilbert Doctorow is a very clever man as a commentator with interesting insights – but does have some lazy deficiencies. Martyanov is an excellent blogger. Karlin deserves credit . But it is disgraceful that blogs are better than official, well-financed news. This worthless bum off the street that Karlin worships, 27khv,is some random, fake , virtual-signalling clown. It is incredible this fraud from Ireland is near the top of prolific english language “pro-russian” commentary.

    RT and most other useless commentators at “best-case” arguments are only:

    Invasion of Libya and Iraq was bad,
    dont be rude about Putin ( but never actually saying anything positive about him)
    …and with absolutely nothing to differentiate the Russia from 2001 with the Russia of now..

    They spend 20 billion roubles per year on RT …and none of them working there would even think it interesting to do some journalism on the background of this Nazi/Bandera bitch Yovanovitch?Particularly when she was in the news over this Impeachment thing? RT appears to do much cheap, sensationalist stuff for attention, a story about Yovanovitch would be interesting , sensationalist stuff….but they are just useless.

    I know you follow more the side of geopolitics and history, but the least worst option for english commentary on Russian stories I would recommend watching this guy, who puts some of his videos up in English:

    https://www.youtube.com/c/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F/videos

    Sure he is a crypto-liberast prick, and the conclusions to his videos are often stupid and lies……but they are excellently produced, detailed and even well- researched.

  154. @AP
    @Gerard.Gerard

    Tell us again about no Ukrainian place names in Canada lol.

    I already posted her family’s biography. Her maternal grandfather was born outside of Moscow and was a choir director at an Orthodox Church in Germany after he fled during the Revolution. As such, he and his descendants are far superior to you. Hence, your embarrassing bitterness and rage.

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela

    Tell us again about no Ukrainian place names in Canada lol.

    Hahahahaa! Are you serious? I’ve just made a masterpiece of a comment on ukrainian diaspora, completely impossible to criticise…..and a clown like you is misdirecting nonsense to coverup the hugely embarassing, argument-ending fact that there are ZERO non-Russian world , ukrainian place-names in USA, with the most embarassing BS! ” The names for places were all allocated” is the most demented nonsense iin the history of the internet…that you have literally just made up instantaneously, not based on any guess, educated guess, or even inner conviction….but based on you being a sociopathic c***p desiring to waste time on the internet to occupy yourself. LOL

    The masterpiece comment was created very soon after the first great literary opera of the 21st century…..my comments about Poland to Anon2. As for your nonsense in initial post – when I can be bothered I will reply.

    I already posted her family’s biography. Her maternal grandfather was born outside of Moscow and was a choir director at an Orthodox Church in Germany after he fled during the Revolution

    For the first and probably only time in your existence…you have actually done something useful and provided interesting information! What confuses me is that you cannot in anyway speak or read Russian…so even accounting for Internet search methods, how did you get this link? Only explanation is likely a tipoff from somebody (most likely Karlin). As for Yovanovitch, no definitive conclusions on her background can be made at this time

    As such, he and his descendants are far superior to you. Hence, your embarrassing bitterness and rage

    LOL. Bizarre. So to add to your fantasist, lunatic “biography” , joining the claims of being Polish, Chechen, Austrian, eastern-Ukrainian, ….we have “White Russian” added into this farce

    • Replies: @AP
    @Gerard-Mandela


    misdirecting nonsense to coverup the hugely embarassing, argument-ending fact that there are ZERO non-Russian world , ukrainian place-names in USA,
     
    Stop misdirecting. You wrote:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/why-belarus-isnt-ukraine/#comment-4089822

    As I have said before, where is the town or village in US or Canada named after a “Ukrainian” place that isn’t entirely Russian world and with the english translation of Russian spelling?

    I listed over a hundred place names in Canada with Ukrainian names:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_place_names_of_Ukrainian_origin

    Your other claims were similarly stupid.

    What confuses me is that you cannot in anyway speak or read Russian
     
    Unlike you I know the Russian word for "watch."

    As for Yovanovitch, no definitive conclusions on her background can be made at this time
     
    Wrong again. And you claiming she had a Banderist background was stupid even by your standards.

    We know that Marie Yovanovitch's maternal grandfather Michael Theokritoff was a choirmaster in a Russian Orthodox church who was born in Moscow but escaped to Germany after the Revolution. The choirmaster's wife Luise Margarete Stanscheck was either French or German. Their daughter, Marie's other, was born in Germany. We know that Marie Yovanovicth's paternal grandfather was a Serb who moved to Siberia and married Maria Mikhailova, a Russian. Their son, Marie Yovanovitch's father, was born in Chita, Russia.

    We also know that as a Sovok"civil engineer" you are naturally incompetent in everything you do, including these discussions.

    "As such, he and his descendants are far superior to you. Hence, your embarrassing bitterness and rage"

    LOL. Bizarre. So to add to your fantasist, lunatic “biography” , joining the claims of being Polish, Chechen, Austrian, eastern-Ukrainian, ….we have “White Russian” added into this farce
     
    I never claimed to have White Russian (or Chechen LOL) background.

    I stated that as a White Russian, Yovanovitch's maternal grandfather was superior to a Sovok such as you and thus she is too.

    But good to see that you reveal that your unconsciously recognize that both White Russians and I are superior to you. Although this is a very low bar, nothing to brag about. Everyone else commenting here is, also.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  155. In short:

    1. Influence of Lithuania’s Commonwealth, keeping Belarus from becoming more distinct like Ukraine did
    2. Russian was the language everyone spoke, so that they even opposed the communist imposition of the Belarussian language in the 1920s and wrote angry letters to the editor about it
    3. Economically backward for a long time, so that Russia was the guarantee for having an economy
    4. No Holodomor like in Ukraine

  156. @Gerard-Mandela
    @AP


    Tell us again about no Ukrainian place names in Canada lol.

     

    Hahahahaa! Are you serious? I've just made a masterpiece of a comment on ukrainian diaspora, completely impossible to criticise.....and a clown like you is misdirecting nonsense to coverup the hugely embarassing, argument-ending fact that there are ZERO non-Russian world , ukrainian place-names in USA, with the most embarassing BS! " The names for places were all allocated" is the most demented nonsense iin the history of the internet...that you have literally just made up instantaneously, not based on any guess, educated guess, or even inner conviction....but based on you being a sociopathic c***p desiring to waste time on the internet to occupy yourself. LOL

    The masterpiece comment was created very soon after the first great literary opera of the 21st century.....my comments about Poland to Anon2. As for your nonsense in initial post - when I can be bothered I will reply.

    I already posted her family’s biography. Her maternal grandfather was born outside of Moscow and was a choir director at an Orthodox Church in Germany after he fled during the Revolution
     
    For the first and probably only time in your existence...you have actually done something useful and provided interesting information! What confuses me is that you cannot in anyway speak or read Russian...so even accounting for Internet search methods, how did you get this link? Only explanation is likely a tipoff from somebody (most likely Karlin). As for Yovanovitch, no definitive conclusions on her background can be made at this time

    As such, he and his descendants are far superior to you. Hence, your embarrassing bitterness and rage
     
    LOL. Bizarre. So to add to your fantasist, lunatic "biography" , joining the claims of being Polish, Chechen, Austrian, eastern-Ukrainian, ....we have "White Russian" added into this farce

    Replies: @AP

    misdirecting nonsense to coverup the hugely embarassing, argument-ending fact that there are ZERO non-Russian world , ukrainian place-names in USA,

    Stop misdirecting. You wrote:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/why-belarus-isnt-ukraine/#comment-4089822

    As I have said before, where is the town or village in US or Canada named after a “Ukrainian” place that isn’t entirely Russian world and with the english translation of Russian spelling?

    I listed over a hundred place names in Canada with Ukrainian names:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_place_names_of_Ukrainian_origin

    Your other claims were similarly stupid.

    What confuses me is that you cannot in anyway speak or read Russian

    Unlike you I know the Russian word for “watch.”

    As for Yovanovitch, no definitive conclusions on her background can be made at this time

    Wrong again. And you claiming she had a Banderist background was stupid even by your standards.

    We know that Marie Yovanovitch’s maternal grandfather Michael Theokritoff was a choirmaster in a Russian Orthodox church who was born in Moscow but escaped to Germany after the Revolution. The choirmaster’s wife Luise Margarete Stanscheck was either French or German. Their daughter, Marie’s other, was born in Germany. We know that Marie Yovanovicth’s paternal grandfather was a Serb who moved to Siberia and married Maria Mikhailova, a Russian. Their son, Marie Yovanovitch’s father, was born in Chita, Russia.

    We also know that as a Sovok”civil engineer” you are naturally incompetent in everything you do, including these discussions.

    “As such, he and his descendants are far superior to you. Hence, your embarrassing bitterness and rage”

    LOL. Bizarre. So to add to your fantasist, lunatic “biography” , joining the claims of being Polish, Chechen, Austrian, eastern-Ukrainian, ….we have “White Russian” added into this farce

    I never claimed to have White Russian (or Chechen LOL) background.

    I stated that as a White Russian, Yovanovitch’s maternal grandfather was superior to a Sovok such as you and thus she is too.

    But good to see that you reveal that your unconsciously recognize that both White Russians and I are superior to you. Although this is a very low bar, nothing to brag about. Everyone else commenting here is, also.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Someone with traitors and apostates blood should never disparage blood of the others as I have noticed you doing with people who have heritage from former Soviet Union. Just some friendly advice... And I really mean it in non hostile way. To me its hypocritical for you to think that your heritage is better than any Sovoks or Russian serfs blood. Of course I am Buddhist and think that our acts are more important than our heritage, but if we think that ones lineage is important or have it as an important criteria in discussion, then in that case you have no basis to say that your lineage is better.

    Replies: @AP

  157. @AP
    @Gerard-Mandela


    misdirecting nonsense to coverup the hugely embarassing, argument-ending fact that there are ZERO non-Russian world , ukrainian place-names in USA,
     
    Stop misdirecting. You wrote:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/why-belarus-isnt-ukraine/#comment-4089822

    As I have said before, where is the town or village in US or Canada named after a “Ukrainian” place that isn’t entirely Russian world and with the english translation of Russian spelling?

    I listed over a hundred place names in Canada with Ukrainian names:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_place_names_of_Ukrainian_origin

    Your other claims were similarly stupid.

    What confuses me is that you cannot in anyway speak or read Russian
     
    Unlike you I know the Russian word for "watch."

    As for Yovanovitch, no definitive conclusions on her background can be made at this time
     
    Wrong again. And you claiming she had a Banderist background was stupid even by your standards.

    We know that Marie Yovanovitch's maternal grandfather Michael Theokritoff was a choirmaster in a Russian Orthodox church who was born in Moscow but escaped to Germany after the Revolution. The choirmaster's wife Luise Margarete Stanscheck was either French or German. Their daughter, Marie's other, was born in Germany. We know that Marie Yovanovicth's paternal grandfather was a Serb who moved to Siberia and married Maria Mikhailova, a Russian. Their son, Marie Yovanovitch's father, was born in Chita, Russia.

    We also know that as a Sovok"civil engineer" you are naturally incompetent in everything you do, including these discussions.

    "As such, he and his descendants are far superior to you. Hence, your embarrassing bitterness and rage"

    LOL. Bizarre. So to add to your fantasist, lunatic “biography” , joining the claims of being Polish, Chechen, Austrian, eastern-Ukrainian, ….we have “White Russian” added into this farce
     
    I never claimed to have White Russian (or Chechen LOL) background.

    I stated that as a White Russian, Yovanovitch's maternal grandfather was superior to a Sovok such as you and thus she is too.

    But good to see that you reveal that your unconsciously recognize that both White Russians and I are superior to you. Although this is a very low bar, nothing to brag about. Everyone else commenting here is, also.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Someone with traitors and apostates blood should never disparage blood of the others as I have noticed you doing with people who have heritage from former Soviet Union. Just some friendly advice… And I really mean it in non hostile way. To me its hypocritical for you to think that your heritage is better than any Sovoks or Russian serfs blood. Of course I am Buddhist and think that our acts are more important than our heritage, but if we think that ones lineage is important or have it as an important criteria in discussion, then in that case you have no basis to say that your lineage is better.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Someone with traitors and apostates blood
     
    None of my ancestors AFAIK were traitors. Apostasy is a matter of opinion.

    However Sovoks by definition were both traitors and apostates.

    So heritage of a descendant of Russian Whites, such as Yovanovitch, is superior to that of a Sovok - Lenin et al murdered Russia and constructed a grotesque Frankenstein's monster out of its corpse. Sovoks are the product of that putrid corpse. As is evident from Gerard's posts. It is very good that Russia is renewing itself, regenerating. But Sovok is nothing to be proud of.

    To me its hypocritical for you to think that your heritage is better than any Sovoks or Russian serfs blood
     
    The heritage of any non-Sovok (except perhaps that of a Nazi) is better than that of a Sovok. I never wrote anything wrong about Russian serfs' blood or about Russian peasants. An honest peasant is quite respectable, certainly better than a Sovok.

    Of course I am Buddhist and think that our acts are more important than our heritage
     
    A correct attitude. And actions often reflect heritage. Russian 90s was Sovok heritage, an expression of Sovok morality when it was running free.
  158. @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Someone with traitors and apostates blood should never disparage blood of the others as I have noticed you doing with people who have heritage from former Soviet Union. Just some friendly advice... And I really mean it in non hostile way. To me its hypocritical for you to think that your heritage is better than any Sovoks or Russian serfs blood. Of course I am Buddhist and think that our acts are more important than our heritage, but if we think that ones lineage is important or have it as an important criteria in discussion, then in that case you have no basis to say that your lineage is better.

    Replies: @AP

    Someone with traitors and apostates blood

    None of my ancestors AFAIK were traitors. Apostasy is a matter of opinion.

    However Sovoks by definition were both traitors and apostates.

    So heritage of a descendant of Russian Whites, such as Yovanovitch, is superior to that of a Sovok – Lenin et al murdered Russia and constructed a grotesque Frankenstein’s monster out of its corpse. Sovoks are the product of that putrid corpse. As is evident from Gerard’s posts. It is very good that Russia is renewing itself, regenerating. But Sovok is nothing to be proud of.

    To me its hypocritical for you to think that your heritage is better than any Sovoks or Russian serfs blood

    The heritage of any non-Sovok (except perhaps that of a Nazi) is better than that of a Sovok. I never wrote anything wrong about Russian serfs’ blood or about Russian peasants. An honest peasant is quite respectable, certainly better than a Sovok.

    Of course I am Buddhist and think that our acts are more important than our heritage

    A correct attitude. And actions often reflect heritage. Russian 90s was Sovok heritage, an expression of Sovok morality when it was running free.

  159. @AP
    @Gerard-Mandela


    On a separate note. Top 5 newborn boy and girl names in Moscow and Kiev are exactly the same. “Separate people” ? Ridiculous
     
    I decided to look this up.

    You are, of course, totally wrong as usual. But thanks for providing the opportunity to note another divergence between Ukraine and Russia.

    Most popular names for boys and girls, Moscow:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090095/popular-male-newborn-first-names-moscow/

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1090087/popular-female-newborn-first-names-moscow/

    Alexander
    Mikhail
    Maxim
    Artyom
    Ivan

    Sofia
    Maria
    Anna
    Alisa
    Viktoria

    Kiev:

    https://www.unian.info/society/10839098-justice-ministry-publishes-lists-of-most-popular-unusual-baby-names-in-central-ukraine-in-2019.html

    Alexander
    Dmytro
    Matviy
    Mark

    Solomiya
    Maria
    Varvara
    Milana
    Arina

    As for your Ukrainian diaspora nonsense:

    1.there is no “distinct community” of Ukrainian diaspora. There is post-ww2 psychopaths smuggled out of the country by the CIA and MI6 in the 1940’s and 50s, who lived in closed communities and are nothing other than subhumans who represent all of the “Ukraine” movement.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_National_Association

    The Ukrainian National Association (UNA) (Ukrainian: Український народний союз) is a North American fraternal organization founded in Shamokin, Pennsylvania on February 22, 1894 when the first wave of immigrants from the Western regions of Ukraine came to the United States and Canada.

    Originally called the Ruthenian National Union (Ukrainian: Руський Народний Союз), it was partly established to counter the influence of the Hungarian-oriented Greek Catholic Union of the USA.[1] The Union adopted the newspaper Svoboda (Liberty) as its organ and sought to develop a distinctly Ukrainian identity.[1] It offered to provide for material needs, such as funeral expenses and care for destitute members while also promoting Ukrainian culture.[2][3]

    The Union later changed its name to the Ukrainian National Association in order to assert a specifically Ukrainian ethnocultural identity.[1]

    Name change occurred in 1914.

    This Ukrainian Greek Catholic cathedral in Chicago was built in 1913:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/St._Nicholas_Ukrainian_Catholic_Cathedral_-_panoramio.jpg/800px-St._Nicholas_Ukrainian_Catholic_Cathedral_-_panoramio.jpg

    You find it strange how politically “sophisticated”Americans were too dumb to realise the lies and true implications when the gutter-whore US Ambassador to Ukraine ,Marie Yovanovitch, said at Trump’s impeachment :”My family escaped Communists, then they escaped Nazis” ?
     
    Marie Yovanovitch is not a diaspora Ukrainian but an ethnic Russian from an anti-Soviet ethnic Russian family.

    19th century emigration to US is entirely Russian world, viewed as Russian world and were called Russian by Americans then( just like “Ukrainians” in land now called Ukraine were still called “Russky” by Poles in the 16th and 17th centuries),
     
    They called themselves Rusyn, were from Galicia, and spoke a Galician dialect that was further from Russian than is standard Ukrainian.

    as for the post-Soviet emigration into the west , apart from those on Soros/Gosdep sponsored degrees and other faggot courses…there is absolutely no “Ukrainian separate from Russian” people – just highly skilled, hard-working people trying to get on with their lifes, often speaking Russian, not english , at home and not associating themselves with this Banderetard community
     
    Churches (both Greek Catholic and Orthodox), Ukrainian Saturday schools, and youth organizations are full of "off the boaters." Ironically these guys are often more hardcore Banderists than many of the grandchildren of the original Banderists, who have adopted the American embarrassment towards xenophobia that newcomers have not.

    As I have said before, where is the town or village in US or Canada named after a “Ukrainian” place that isn’t entirely Russian world and with the english translation of Russian spelling?Everyother nationality that settled in the New world before WW2 has a settlement named after a place of their homeland
     
    LOL. Another epic failure by you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_place_names_of_Ukrainian_origin



    Alberta:

    Bellis, Alberta, "white woods"; referring to poplars and birch.[1]
    Myrnam, Alberta, "peace to us"; from the Ukrainian word myr, "peace".[2]
    Slawa, Alberta, northeast of Myrnam on the Edmonton-to-Lloydminster branch line of the Canadian Pacific Railway[3] - Polonized spelling of the Ukrainian word "glory" (slava).
    Wasel, Alberta, west of Hamlin near the North Saskatchewan River on Highway 652[4] - Polonized spelling of the Ukrainian common name "Vasyl".
    Borsczow, Alberta,[33] northeast of Ryley on Secondary Highway 626; Polonized spelling of Borshchiv, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Buchach, Alberta, the Buczacz School District No. 2580,[8] and St. Nicholas Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (Hlus' Church), Buczacz; halfway between Innisfree and Musidora, Alberta off Secondary Highway 870 - from Buchach, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Halych, Alberta (located in Westlock County, east of Tawatinaw[34]), from Halych - the historic city in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast
    Ispas, Alberta,[35] southeast of Hamlin and northwest of Duvernay, Alberta on the south side of the North Saskatchewan River - after Ispas, Vyzhnytsia Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).
    Jaroslaw School District No. 1478,[29] the Descent of the Holy Spirit Ukrainian Catholic Church, Jaroslaw;[36] and St. Demitrius Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Jaroslaw;[37] all northeast of Bruderheim, Alberta on Highway 38 - the Polish name of the city of Yaroslav, now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Kolomea, Alberta and the Kolomea School District No. 1507,[38] both southeast of Mundare, Alberta - phonetic spelling of Kolomyia, Kolomyia Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.
    Lanuke, Alberta,[39] south of Two Hills off Highway 36 - possibly after a local family.
    Luzan, Alberta,[40] southwest of Andrew - after Luzhany, Kitsman Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovyna).
    Mazeppa, Alberta, northeast of High River and northwest of Blackie - the historical English spelling of the last name of Hetman Ivan Mazepa.
    New Kiew, Alberta and the Kiew School District No. 1693,[41] both north of Lavoy, Alberta off Secondary Highway 631 - German and Polish spelling of the capital city of Ukraine.
    Shalka, Alberta,[4] north of Hairy Hill off Secondary Highway 645; after postmaster Matt (Dmytro) Shalka.
    Shandro, Alberta, northeast of Andrew off Secondary Highway 857 near the North Saskatchewan River - after the Shandro family from "Rus'kyi Banyliv", Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).[42]
    Shepenge, Alberta, the Szypenitz School District No. 1470,[43] and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of St. Mary, Szypentiz; all northwest of Hairy Hill and northeast of Duvernay, Alberta off Secondary Highway 860 - after Shypyntsi, Kitsman Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).
    Shishkovitzi was a locality southwest of Hilliard and southeast of Chipman, Alberta centering on St. Mary's Holy Dormition Russo-Greek Orthodox Catholic Church[44] - named after Shyshkivtsi, Kitsman Raion, Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina).
    Sniatyn, Alberta and the Sniatyn School District No. 1605,[45] both north of Andrew at the confluence of Limestone and Egg Creeks - after Sniatyn, Sniatyn Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast. Was originally named Hunka,[46] after a settler in the area from Bukovina, and located further upstream on Limestone Creek.
    Spaca Moskalyk was a locality northwest of Vegreville and northeast of Mundare, Alberta centered on the Transfiguration of Our Lord Ukrainian Catholic Church[47][48] - named after both Spas, Dolyna Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast, and the Moskalyk family who donated part of their farmland for the church.
    Stry, Alberta and the Stry School District No. 2508,[49] both southeast of Vilna and northeast of Hamlin, Alberta - after Stryi, Stryi Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Ukalta, Alberta, north of Wostok off Secondary Highway 855 near the North Saskatchewan River - possibly a combination of "Ukrayina" and "Alberta".
    Zawale, Alberta and the Zawale School District No. 1074,[50] both south of Wostok, Alberta off Highway 29 - Polonized misspelling of Zavalya, Sniatyn Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.

    Edmonton
    Neighbourhoods
    Baturyn, Edmonton, after Baturyn, a historic castle town in northeastern Ukraine (Bakhmatskyi Raion, Chernihiv Oblast).
    Oleskiw, Edmonton (formerly Wolf Willow Farms),[51] renamed in 1972 after Dr. Joseph Oleskiw (1860–1903), professor, writer and promoter of emigration.[22]
    Ozerna, Edmonton, literally "lake district".[51]
    Pylypow Industrial subdivision, after Ivan Pylypow,[51] early pioneer.[52]

    Saskatchewan

    Chorney Beach, Saskatchewan, a resort beach at Fishing Lake southeast of Wadena; possibly after a local family.
    Chortitz, Saskatchewan, south of Swift Current on Highway 379; German spelling of Khortytsia island, located in the Dnipro river now within the city of Zaporizhia, Ukraine - Saskatchewan hamlet named by "Russian" Mennonite immigrants.
    Dmytruk Lake, north of Cree Lake; after Peter Dmytruk of Wynyard, Saskatchewan (aka "Pierre le Canadien"), a member of the Royal Canadian Air Force who served with the French Resistance after being shot down near Paris in 1943.[55]
    Dneister, Saskatchewan (renamed "Hamton"),[56] northeast of Rhein on Highway 650; after the Dniester river.
    Krasne, Saskatchewan, west of Wishart, the Ukrainian word for "beautiful"; after a village in Pidvolochysk Raion,[57] Ternopil Oblast, Ukraine.
    Krydor, Saskatchewan, after Peter (Petro) Krysak and Teodor Lucyk, local settlers.
    Lemberg, Saskatchewan, German name for Lviv, Ukraine - Saskatchewan town named by ethnic Germans from Galicia.
    Leskiw Lake, southwest of Creighton, Saskatchewan; after Anthony Leskiw of Saskatoon, "lost at sea in October 1940 while serving aboard SS Whitford Point, torpedoed in the north Atlantic by a German submarine".[58]
    Odessa, Saskatchewan, after the city of Odessa, Ukraine - Saskatchewan village named by ethnic Germans from the neighbouring Bessarabia Governorate of the Russian Empire, which is today split between Moldova and Ukraine.
    Paniowce, Saskatchewan (renamed "Swan Plain"[59]), north of Norquay on Highway 8 - Polonized misspelling of Panivtsi Zelene, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Rak, Saskatchewan, northeast of Vonda on Highway 41 - after Joseph Rak[60] from Lanivtsi, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    St. Petro Mohyla Institute, Saskatoon, a private college for the study of the Ukrainian language, history and culture - after St. Petro Mohyla.
    St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Park, Saskatchewan, a campground owned by the Saskatoon branch of the Ukrainian Catholic Brotherhood of Canada; featuring a small Ukrainian Catholic church dedicated to St. Volodymyr.
    Tarnopol, Saskatchewan, Polonized spelling of Ternopil, Ternopil Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Whitkow, Saskatchewan, west of Mayfair on Highway 378, is an Anglo-Polonized spelling[61] of Vytkiv, Radekhiv Raion, Lviv Oblast.

    Adamiwka School District No. 1994 and the Ukrainian Catholic Church of the Descent of the Holy Ghost, Adamiwka;[78] both southeast of Rosthern, Saskatchewan - after "Adamivka",[79] now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Antoniwka was a locality north of Canora, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of the Assumption; named after Antonivka, Chortkiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    "Belyk's" was a locality north of Borden, Saskatchewan centered on the "Ivan Franko National Home" - built on Yurko Belyk's farmland[60] - and the Redberry Park rural post office; also the location of the Assumption of St. Mary Ukrainian Orthodox church.
    Beresina, Saskatchewan, northeast of Churchbridge; German spelling of "Berezyna" (now Rozdil[80] in Mykolaiv Raion), Lviv Oblast - Saskatchewan post office named by ethnic Germans from Galicia.
    Bobulynci was a locality southwest of Rose Valley, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of The Transfiguration - named after Bobulyntsi, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Bodnari (or "Kolo Bodnariv") was a locality northeast of Vonda, Saskatchewan named after Teodor Bodnar,[60] who donated part of his farmland to the Ukrainian Catholic parish of Saints Peter and Paul for a church.
    Buchach was a locality near Hazel Dell, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic Church of the Patronage of the Blessed Virgin Mary; named after Buchach, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Bukowina, Saskatchewan, south of Yellow Creek; German/Polish spelling of the Austrian crownland of Bukovyna - now Chernivtsi Oblast, Ukraine. Named by Bukovynian immigrant and postmaster John (Ivan) Fessiuk.[75]
    Byrtnyky was a locality between Kelvington and Endeavour, Saskatchewan named after one of three places named "Byrtnyky"[81] in Lviv Oblast.
    Dneiper, Saskatchewan, north of Rhein, after the Dnipro river.
    Dobrowody, Saskatchewan and the Dobrowody School District No. 2637, both northeast of Rama, Saskatchewan - a Ukrainian phrase meaning "good water"; after a village of the same name ("Dobrovody")[57] in Pidhaitsi Raion, Ternopil Oblast, Ukraine.
    Drobot, Saskatchewan, north of Theodore, after Thomas Drobot - postmaster from 1909–1917.
    Halyary, Saskatchewan, southwest of Preeceville - a Postmaster General/Government of Canada misspelling of "Halychy".[82]
    Halycry School District No. 2835, also southwest of Preeceville, Saskatchewan - a Department of Education misspelling of "Halychy".[82]
    Havryliuky was a locality south of Prud'homme, Saskatchewan named after Nicholas Hawryluk (Nykola Havryliuk),[60] who donated part of his farmland for Sacred Heart of Jesus Ukrainian Catholic Church.
    Hryhoriw School District No. 2390 and the Ukrainian Catholic parish of St. Demetrius, Hryhoriw; both south of Preeceville, Saskatchewan - after Hryhoriv, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Hory (also called Carpenter-Hory) was a locality southwest of Wakaw, Saskatchewan centering on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of The Ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ - after the Ukrainian word for "mountains" ("hori").
    Janow School District No. 2842 and Janow Corners, Saskatchewan, both south of Meath Park; after a village called "Yaniv" (now Ivano-Frankove),[72] in Yavoriv Raion, Lviv Oblast, Ukraine.
    Kalyna, Saskatchewan, and the Kalyna School District No. 3945, both south of Meath Park, Saskatchewan - after the Ukrainian word for the "highbush cranberry".
    Kiev was a locality southwest of Rose Valley, Saskatchewan centered on a Ukrainian Orthodox Church; named after the capital city of Ukraine.
    Kobzar School District No. 3597 and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Holy Ascension, Arran-Kobzar; both south of Arran, Saskatchewan - after the book of poems by Taras Shevchenko.
    Kolo Pidskal'noho (or "Pidskalny's") was a locality west of Cudworth, Saskatchewan named after Ivan Pidskalny,[58] who donated part of his farmland to the Ukrainian Catholic parish of St. Demetrius for a church.
    Kolo Solomyanoho was a locality west of Cudworth, Saskatchewan named after Ivan Solomyany,[58] who donated part of his farmland for the (unspecified) Ukrainian Church of the Holy Transfiguration.
    Kowalowka School District No. 1739 and the Ukrainian Catholic Church of The Transfiguration, Kovalivka; both northeast of Canora, Saskatchewan - after Kovalivka, Buchach Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    "Krassna" was a parish of German Roman Catholics[83] south of Leader, Saskatchewan - German spelling of Krasne, Izmail Raion, Odessa Oblast.
    Krim was a locality south of Aberdeen, Saskatchewan and is the German spelling of the Crimean peninsula - named by "Russian" Mennonites from the Taurida Governorate of the Russian Empire, now Ukraine.
    Kulykiv was a locality north of Invermay, Saskatchewan named after Kulykiv, Zhovkva Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Kvitka, Saskatchewan, south of Jedburgh, after Gregory (Hryhory) Kvitka (1778–1843), Ukrainian novelist.
    Kyziv-Tiaziv, Saskatchewan, south of Rama, after Tiaziv, Tysmenytsia Raion, Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.[84][85]
    Laniwci, Saskatchewan, and the Laniwci School District No. 2300, both west of Alvena, Saskatchewan - Polonized spelling of Lanivtsi, Borshchiv Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Malonek, Saskatchewan, and the Malonek School District No. 3669, both northeast of Pelly, Saskatchewan; perhaps after "Malynivka"[62] - now Malinówka, Brzozów County, Poland.[24]
    New Yaroslau, the name of a Ukrainian block settlement northeast of Yorkton, Saskatchewan; after the ancient city of Yaroslav - now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Orolow, Saskatchewan (also called "Teshliuk's"),[81] south of Krydor - Polonized misspelling of Ordiv, Radekhiv Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Rebryna was a locality northeast of Hafford, Saskatchewan centered on the "Redberry Ivan Franko Library and Hall", named after Paul (Pavlo) Rebryna.[60]
    Sich School District No. 3454, the Sich community hall and the Ukrainian Catholic parish of St. Michael, "Krydor Sich"; all west of Blaine Lake, Saskatchewan - after the fortresses of the Ukrainian Cossacks.
    Sokal, Saskatchewan, and the Sokal School District No. 1955, both west of Wakaw, Saskatchewan - named after Sokal, Sokal Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Stanislavtsi was a locality south of Foam Lake, Saskatchewan named after Stanislaviv (now Ivano-Frankivsk), Ukraine; also the location of the "Michael Hrushewski" community hall.
    Vasyliv (or "Kolo Vasyleva") was a locality south of Buchanan, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic parish of Saints Constantine and Helena; named after "N. Wasyliw".[58]
    Vorobceve was a locality just west of Krydor, Saskatchewan centered on the Ukrainian Catholic Church of St. Demetrius; named after the Worobetz family.[86]
    Walawa, Saskatchewan, west of Theodore; Polonized spelling of "Valiava" - now in Przemyśl County, Poland.[24]
    Welechko (or "Bilya Velychka") was a locality south of Hafford, Saskatchewan, named after Ivan Welechko[60] - who donated part of his farmland to the Ukrainian Catholic parish of The Presentation for a church; also the location of the "Taras Shewchenko" community hall.

    Manitoba

    Dneiper, Manitoba[87] (renamed "Fishing River"), east of Ukraina and northeast of Sifton - after the Dnipro river.
    Komarno, Manitoba, the Ukrainian word for "mosquito" - possibly after Komarno, Horodok Raion, Lviv Oblast.
    Prawda, Manitoba, southeast of Hadashville on the eastbound lanes of the Trans-Canada Highway; a Polonized spelling of the Ukrainian (and Russian) word pravda, "truth".
    Szewczenko, Manitoba (renamed "Vita"), west of Stuartburn on Provincial Road 201; a Polonized spelling of Taras Shevchenko's last name.
    Trembowla, Manitoba, northwest of Dauphin on Provincial Road 491; the Polish spelling of Terebovlia, Terebovlya Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Ukraina, Manitoba,[88] southeast of Ethelbert and northwest of Sifton on Provincial Road 273; a phonetic spelling of "Ukraine" in the Ukrainian language.
    Zhoda, Manitoba, north of Vita and southeast of Steinbach on Highway 12; the Ukrainian word for "harmony".
    Halicz, Manitoba,[89] northwest of Trembowla and north of Ashville near Highway 10 - a Polonized spelling of Halych, a historic Ukrainian city in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast.
    Horod, Manitoba, north of Elphinstone on Provincial Road 354, near the south boundary of Riding Mountain National Park - the Ukrainian word for "city".
    Jaroslaw, Manitoba, southwest of Hnausa; the Polish name of the city of Yaroslav, now in Jarosław County, Poland.[24]
    Kulish, Manitoba, northwest of Ethelbert; after Panteleimon Kulish (1819–1897).
    Medika, Manitoba, north of Hadashville on Provincial Road 507 - after Medyka on the present Polish-Ukrainian border.[24]
    Melnice, Manitoba, west of Dunnottar and southwest of Winnipeg Beach, at the junction of Highway 8 and Provincial Road 225 - the Ukrainian word for "windmill".[90]
    Okno, Manitoba, northwest of Riverton near Shorncliffe - the Ukrainian word for "window".
    Oleskiw, Manitoba,[91] west of Stuartburn on Provincial Road 201; after Dr. Joseph Oleskiw (1860–1903) - author of the pamphlets "On Free Lands" (Pro Vilni Zemli, spring 1895),[20][21] and "On Emigration" (O emigratsiy, December 1895).[22]
    Olha, Manitoba,[91] east of Rossburn and north of Oakburn on Provincial Road 577; from female given name Olha (c.f. Russian "Olga") - possibly after Princess Olha (c. 890–969).
    Ozerna, Manitoba, southeast of Erickson and northeast of Newdale - literally "lake district".
    Petlura, Manitoba, at the junction of Provincial Road 366 and Provincial Road 584 near the north boundary of Riding Mountain National Park - after Ukrainian independence leader Symon Petliura (1879–1926).
    Ruthenia, Manitoba, northeast of Angusville and north of the Waywayseecappo townsite on Provincial Road 264, near the south boundary of Riding Mountain National Park - after the Austro-Hungarian name for the Ukrainian territories of Galicia, Bukovina, and Carpathian Ruthenia (now Transcarpathian Oblast).
    Seech, Manitoba, east of Olha and northwest of Elphinstone, near the south boundary of Riding Mountain National Park - a phonetic misspelling of the Ukrainian word "sich"; after the fortresses of the Ukrainian Cossacks.
    Senkiw, Manitoba, northwest of Roseau River and southwest of Rosa - possibly after a local family.
    Sirko, Manitoba,[92] south of Sundown near the Minnesota border - possibly after the Ukrainian Cossack leader Ivan Sirko (c. 1610–1680).
    Vidir, Manitoba, northwest of Arborg on Provincial Road 233 - ?.
    Zbaraz, Manitoba, southeast of Fisher Branch and northwest of Arborg on Provincial Road 329 - a phonetic spelling of Zbarazh, Zbarazh Raion, Ternopil Oblast.
    Zelana, Manitoba, northeast of Ukraina and east of Ethelbert on Provincial Road 269 - a misspelling of the Ukrainian word for "green" (zelena).
    Zelena, Manitoba, northeast of Makaroff and west of the junction of Provincial Road 594 and Highway 83 - the Ukrainian word for "green".
    Zoria, Manitoba,[93] east of Sifton off Highway 10 - the Ukrainian word for "dawn".

    :::::::::::::::::

    Not many places in the USA because unlike in Canada, Ukrainians came into already-settled and named places in the USA.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Gerard-Mandela

    I decided to look this up.

    LOL…err no. After multiple times of me ridiculing you over this fact, you have been endlessly “researching” it every week for the last few months just like you do on everything else. You have then come across this horses**t from the absurd propaganda nonsense Unian and intentionally promoted this disinfo because it is the only thing there which you could have edited ( – which is obviously fake information, has no common sense to it and contradicts every single Russian and Ukrainian language page on this issue..and you have certainly gone past 100 links saying the opposite of your BS) ..add to this the fact you have serious problems

    For the last 30 years, the top names in Kiev and Moscow…or just Ukraine and Russia, have been identical. To any non-moron this is absolute, easy fact:

    https://iz.ru/1041307/2020-07-29/nazvany-samye-populiarnye-imena-dlia-novorozhdennykh-v-iiune-v-moskve

    https://kiev.vgorode.ua/news/sobytyia/402196-veselyna-y-rafael-nazvany-samye-populiarnye-ymena-novorozhdennykh-v-kyeve

    https://www.rbc.ua/rus/styler/ukraine-nazvali-samye-populyarnye-imena-detey-1593035208.html

    https://focus.ua/ukraine/415765-nazvany-samye-populyarnye-imena-dlya-novorozhdennyx-v-kieve

    https://iz.ru/967014/2020-01-22/nazvany-samye-populiarnye-imena-novorozhdennykh-v-moskve-v-2019-godu

    https://bigkyiv.com.ua/v-kieve-nazvali-samye-populyarnye-imena-dlya-novorozhdennyh/

    Every single one of these links shows Aleksander,Artyom,Sofia,Maria,Anna,Alisa, Eva, Viktoria, Maksim,Dmitry , mikhail,maksim, dmitry as the most popular names every year in Kiev/Moscow and the two countries. Taking links from 2000 onwards, or newspapers from 1991 – it completely reinforces this obvious point even more. It’s not something I had even thought about before – but after 30 years that type of fact subconsciously builds-up in the brain from own experiences and the media writing this story at the end of each year.
    Even more amusingly ….as Mark has become more popular in Moscow/Russia…it has identically become more popular in – Ukraine/Kiev
    As Anastasia still remains very popular, just not as popular as before in Russia – the same trend is observed in Banderastan. Sofia is always number 1 for girls, Alexander or Artyom for boys
    Belarus doesn’t even have such similar trends with Russia. Even more amusing? “Traditional” , distinctive Ukrainian names are nowhere on the list!

    But it get’s better:

    Solomiya
    Maria
    Varvara
    Milana
    Arina

    If anything exposes more what a clueless,fraud, sociopathic cretin you are, writing on things you know nothing about by instantaneously coming up with dishonest BS theories ( probably even worse than if I was trying to do keyhole surgery on myself just from reading on the internet , after 2 minutes) stemming not from any educated guess or knowledge…but solely from selectively promoting random garbage on the internet you have just looked at…..which even further exposes your lack of knowledge than before……..then this is worse than even the infamous mir/Svet abomination.

    Absolutely NOBODY in Ukraine or Russia would call it even close to plausible of Solomiya being in the top 5 names, not in top 10 names, nowhere near top 20 or 30 names…..it’s near certainly not even in the top 50 names . It is in the same league of dumbness as thinking that “Geronimo” is the most common name for WASP’s in America. It is just something that even the most extreme Khokhols on the planet would never endorse. Solomia is a pleasant name in the same way some white Americans may smile at the most flamboyant negro name, but a very small percentage of them would ever want to name their child that. I suspect even Mr Hack would agree with me. You are literally the definition of dishonest and stupid.

    Varvara, though certainly not a rare name…it is idiotic to think of it as in top 5 or top 10 names. Again, if you have even the remotest experience with Ukraine then you would never link garbage claiming Solomiya as popular and think twice about Varvara in there

    Next topic. I said:

    1.there is no “distinct community” of Ukrainian diaspora. There is post-ww2 psychopaths smuggled out of the country by the CIA and MI6 in the 1940’s and 50s, who lived in closed communities and are nothing other than subhumans who represent all of the “Ukraine” movement.

    You said

    The Ukrainian National Association (UNA) (Ukrainian: Український народний союз) is a North American fraternal organization founded in Shamokin, Pennsylvania on February 22, 1894 when the first wave of immigrants from the Western regions of Ukraine came to the United States and Canada.

    Originally called the Ruthenian National Union (Ukrainian: Руський Народний Союз), it was partly established to counter the influence of the Hungarian-oriented Greek Catholic Union of the USA.[1] The Union adopted the newspaper Svoboda (Liberty) as its organ and sought to develop a distinctly Ukrainian identity.[1] It offered to provide for material needs, such as funeral expenses and care for destitute members while also promoting Ukrainian culture.[2][3]

    Read carefully you idiot. I’m am not interested in some nothing, irrelevant organisation you have just randomly searched on the internet. Diaspora as I write it – implies relation to present tense of the word, and the community as it now functions i.e 100% CIA Banderetard from 40s/50s . This pattern is obvious in ALL the prominent figures in North American pseudo-ukrop community – Yaresko, Suprun( and her husband and brother), Freedland,Yuschenko, Plaviuk,Czolij,Bociurkiw,Waschuk and 100’s more . Every single one of these excrement is WW2/Post-WW2 Banderetards with the majority of them in families that lived most of the postwar 40’s early 50’s in Germany before being smuggled by the CIA into North America
    Every organisation in North America is run by Banderetards, not post WW1/19th century diaspora. They (ww1/19thC) are nowhere in ukrop nationalist movements in US and Canada – it is all Nazi filth. Probably because Austrian Intelligience is not at level it once was.LOL.

    “Academia” of “Ukrainian” culture and history existed f**k all in America until the late 60’s/1970’s – it was entirely created by OUN/Banderites a safe amount of time after being smuggled by the CIA and having families. Absolutely nothing from 19th, early 20th century diaspora that lead to any Ukrainian academic Institutions formed in US. Academia appears to have been a front for these scum to hide themselves for a few decades – so it’s no coincidence that they only formed officially more than a generation after their despicable acts in the war.
    What is even more Banderetard than academia?…….the Ukrop church in America. No contest.

    I repeat that this is highly abnormal.In US, pre Septermber 11th 2001, support for the IRA was lead not by IRA-members exclusively- it was a mixture of diaspora over the 150 years+ of Irish settlement in America. Jewish lobby is not dominated by Holocaust refugees…..but from jews of all eras from the pogroms to now. You have ukrop diaspora from 1880s,1890’s, 1910’s – they have 2,3,4 kids…they have children – if even 10% of these people keep their “culture” then they should be there at the front of the community, but they aren’t.
    Smuggled CIA scum were dominating these groups as early as the 1950’s – implausible given that immediate and first generation from 1910’s and before should easily have been the dominant figures . 30 years from independence and a sizeable post-soviet emigration to US …..and these people want nothing to do w ith these subhumans and it is STILL run by Banderetard diaspora 70 years+ later!!!!

    Ukrainian nationalist organisations calling themselves

    Руський Народний Союз

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! What’s that foreign language? “Seperate people” – LOL. Is that your cluelessness on the language exposed again?

    This is on top of a very sizeable part of Rusyns then (19th century) and now, have called and viewed themselves as Russian.

    But let’s not worry, they renamed themselves as

    Український народний союз

    First use of the term “Ukrainian” was in Pskov and parts of the then southern border of Russia, for obvious reasons.

    Ruthenian of course was never used at all as a term in America you idiot. Perhaps only fringe, cultist, sub-Roma lunatics – but not by any local Americans and their media. Every single one/person calling them Malorossiyans. You could say “Ruthenian” was even less complied with than the abominable adherence to “Kyiv” instead of Kiev is now

    So …they were called Malorossiyans or Russians, self-naming themselves as Russky , so that they can escape people thinking they are Russian(LOL), and Ukrop first called at people living in Pskov and south Russia.

    Plenty of your other points can be annihilated by quoting my

    in 19th century is bunch of stateless morons from Galicia and Romania, i.e those with no connection to land of “historical” Ukraine….not to mention should have zero connection to any anti-Russian movement, or anti-Soviet or “Golodomor” blabla etcetera. Even then, main part of Canada ukrops are from Banderetard/OUN era

    I will reply to rest of your nonsense when I can be bothere, bu this is quite comprehensive

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