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Sweden (Yes!) comes in for a hard time with the Alt Right and the /pol/ crowd on the Internet where it has basically become a meme.

However, there’s something Sweden – and the Nordics – are doing right.

According to Twitter demographer Cicerone’s calculations, the Nordics are the only major world region where fertility rates amongst women are not dysgenic.

(Male fertility tends to be neutral to slightly eugenic in the United States, and probably elsewhere in the developed world, since children are not a burden so far as most male careers are concerned).

Now consider that:

  1. IQ is usually less correlated with fertility than education.
  2. (Lower educated) immigrants in the Nordic countries all have substantially higher than native fertility.

And it would turn out that Nordic women actually probably have eugenic fertility patterns.

So it’s entirely possible that Sweden et al. will be just fine in the long term. It’s the smart fractions that overwhelmingly determine socio-economic success, and that smart fraction would appear to be quite vigorous. Moreover, while it does get a lot of Third World refuse, this may well be counterbalanced by its hovering up of human capital across the Mediterranean and East-Central Europe (along with the Anglo-Germanics).

Meanwhile, Latin America is basically a disaster zone so far as dysgenics is concerned.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. neutral says:

    Obviously begs the question how many “Swedes” listed here are white, and how many are white women miscegenating with non whites?

    • Agree: WHAT
  3. Israel is very high generally but also very dysgenic.

    What explains the massive difference between Pakistan and Bengal?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  4. WHAT says:
    @neutral

    With Volvo(!) contemplating leaving the country, answer should become visible quite soon.

  5. @neutral

    About one-quarter of people living in Sweden have an immigrant background. Immigrant background being defined as having at least one immigrant parent. This also includes other Europeans, and for a very long time the largest immigrant group was Finns (who are still at #3).

    Very few people with an immigrant background, let alone a non-European one, are to be found in the higher echelons of Swedish society.

    I have no data on miscegenation in Sweden, but one gets the impression that Sweden has much higher levels of ethnic segregation than other countries in Western Europe. Many Swedish women are likely to have fornicated with a non-white, usually abroad rather than in Sweden itself, but they settle down with Swedish men.

    I get the impression that the Nordic “success” in fertility stems from its very generous social welfare benefits, which substantially equalize the consumption of families compared to the childless. Free “education” and a strong labor market with high wages also mean that family formation need not be delayed for financial reasons, though housing is a big problem now.

  6. Hail says: • Website

    The Philippines’ dysgenics is the very worst of those in the table:

    – 3.43 TFR for “low education” mothers

    – 2.50 TFR for “medium education” mothers

    – 1.66 TFR for “high education” mothers

    ___________

    The resulting child and grandchild generations (given replacement TFR of 2.35, 2.25, 2.15 respectively) is disturbing:

    – Low-education mother genes: 31.8% –> 40.1% –> 48.4%

    – Med.-education mother genes: 49.6% –> 47.5% –> 43.7%

    – Low-education mother genes: 18.6% –> 12.4% –> 7.9%

    Classic dysgenics, in fact so stark a case as to be almost a “dysgenic nightmare” scenario, if education is a good proxy for IQ in among b.1980s and b.1990s Philippine women, which by this point I would assume it is.

    • Replies: @Hail
    , @tamako
  7. AaronB says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    Why would you say very dysgenic?

    For Sweden, the highly educated have a TFR of 1.8, in Israel its 2.78, significantly better.

    Sweden is still below replacement for its highly educated . Israel is maybe the only developed country where the highly educated is not just at replacement, but above. More smart people are coming on board. Sweden is still losing smart people in absolute terms, even if its shedding stupid people at the same or slightly higher rate.

    So granted Israel is gaining slightly more less intelligent people than Sweden, but its also gaining more smart people. And Israel’s low education fertility rate is only about three quarters of a child more than its highest, which is not dramatic.

    So Sweden seems to be shrinking overall, but the changing composition is very slightly tilted towards smart people. Israel is growing overall, and it is gaining slightly more stupid people along with more smart people.

    I think it’s fair to say both countries are experiencing eugenic trends in different ways.

    And considering that Israel has many wars to fight, its probably healthy that its growth is slightly tilted towards the middle and less educated, provided that it’s also growing its smart sector, which it is. It needs those smart people to invent the weapons and tactics and industry, but you can’t gave an army of all nerds.

    Israel is in a fantastic situation compared to the rest of the developed world.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Anon
  8. @neutral

    Swedish women are less likely than swedish men to miscegenate + native ethnic Swedish fertility is higher than every other country in Europe except Debmark and iceland.

    https://www.thelocal.se/20150402/single-immigrants-less-likely-to-settle-with-swedes

    Only three out of ten immigrant women and nearly two out of ten immigrant men were in a relationship with a Swede

    • Replies: @Passer by
  9. @Thorfinnsson

    Many Swedish women are likely to have fornicated with a non-white, usually abroad rather than in Sweden itself, but they settle down with Swedish men.

    Provide a source for that or you’re full of shit.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Anounder
    , @Thorfinnsson
  10. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB

    These are a lot of them Muslims, especially Bedouins, who have ten child in each family, and these Arabs are starting to overtake South of Israel. (North of Israel is already majority Muslim).

    Then Israeli governments forces the Bedouin children into the most high-achieving boarding schools in Israel, especially where there are Russian speakers, and the standards in those schools in the South are rapidly declining.

    In addition, Israel uses affirmative action and scholarships for Muslims to go the universities, so that Arab do not pay tuition fees, while at the same time do not go to army. Here they could be planning to increase education level of the Arabs so that it will reduce their birthrates. However, anger created in the Israeli secular population from this, is more likely to cause more and more Israeli high human capital population to emigrate (Israeli Jews have to pay very high university tuition fees, in addition to years in the army which are almost without salary).

    There has been a massive exodus of educated Israelis, who leave the country, and this is particularly with the more European and/or Russian speaking component of its population.

    The friends I stay with in Israel, for example, are still planning to emigrate to Canada, and anger about unfair positive discrimination for Arabs in all sectors, as well as general too large Middle Eastern population (e.g. Moroccan Jews can be annoying neighbours), and too many religious Jews (Haredim), is one of the motivations which is causing educated secular people in Israel to want to emigrate from there to Canada.

  11. Mark G. says:

    Socialism is probably dysgenic because it enables lower IQ, less educated and less wealthy people to have more children. Sweden isn’t quite as socialist as it appears on the surface. Lower income Swedes receive more in government benefits than lower income Americans but they also pay much higher taxes than lower income Americans. The bottom fifty percent of Americans pay almost no income taxes. Sweden did try a soak the rich tax system in the seventies but it didn’t work. People either left the country, engaged in income tax evasion, or cut back on work to avoid being in the high tax brackets. The most famous income tax evasion case involved the Swedish director Ingmar Bergman who was arrested and then had to be put in a mental hospital three days later after suffering a mental breakdown from having been arrested. The author of the world famous Pippi Longstocking children stories, who was being taxed at 102% of her income, wrote a satirical story about the high tax rates. Since there is less income redistribution from rich to poor in Sweden, more educated and wealthier people there are able to afford to have children more easily.

    • LOL: Rosie
    • Replies: @Macon Richardson
  12. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    Many of the Russian immigrants to Israel really wished to go to Canada or America, and were only using Israel as a waystation.

    Israel isn’t really a country for people whose main consideration is to have an easy and pleasant life in an atheistic setting and who prioritize material comforts. Its more a blood and soil kind of place. It also has a culture that is sort of Southern Europe and Levantine, which may not feel so comfortable to many Russians.

    So yes, a certain percentage of Russians, especially with less Jewish ancestry, certainly wish to leave and will do so.

    As for the fertility, its difficult to see how the story is not positive. The highly educated are at 2.78 – that means more smart people each year.

    The lowest educated are only at 3.5, less than a child more – and this will likely fall as groups like the Bedouin become more affluent.

    As for your points about affirmative action for Arabs and the like, they are valid and as in all such cases, a regrettable source of tension.

    Israel surely has its share of problems, and some resemble those found in other affluent countries.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  13. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB

    Russian immigrants to Israel really wished to go to Canada

    There is constant flow of thousands of young people from Russia/Ukraine to Israel, and back to Russia/Ukraine.

    Most are just going for some adventure or because they are bored.

    Problem from Israel’s perspective, is that the high layer (especially those with PhDs, etc) mostly emigrate from Israel, while the low layer stay in Israel.

    So the drunk gopniks from Ukraine, are fighting each other outside the bar in Bat Yam, and will never leave Israel all their life (they like it there).

    However, the physicists and doctors – go to Canada.

    This also is the same story for the native population. For example, almost all best Israeli scientists and academics, live in America/Canada, etc.

    Finally, excluding religious population, brown people are settling much more in Israel, and having more children.

    Illegal immigrants from Africa, do not leave and destroyed some areas of Israeli cities. Arabs, have the most children, but then there is an equal danger from Haredim (Jews).

    So, overall story, is quite dysgenic.

    On the other hand, the economy of Israel could reverse, or reduce, the problem. If they would lower taxes, in particular corporation taxes, encourage more foreign investment and multinationals, reduce regulations and unionization of labour. They need to produce a lot more skilled jobs, to keep better people, and also they need to reform the immigration system and try to attract skilled workers from other nationalities (if they reach a higher income level – then they need to remove the Jewish ancestry requirement for legal immigration, and accept legal immigrants from other nationalities, but who have higher human capital).

    Israel surely has its share of problems, and some resemble those found in other affluent countries.

    But they do not have willpower solve even the easier problems which would be possible, for them to solve. For example, reducing power of Supreme Court, reducing power of the NGOs which undermine Israel from within, or repatriating illegal immigrants from Africa, and reducing their extreme liberalism and positive discrimination for Arabs.

    So it seems like there is a lack of to live, or instinct to live, in Israel, and their system flawed in a fatal way.

    And then remember, that Haredim and Arabs combined will soon become half of Israeli schoolchildren.

  14. Rosie says:
    @Sam Coulton

    Provide a source for that or you’re full of shit.

    Cue the “white knight” screeching.

  15. The mating habits of Nordic women won’t matter once Scandinavia is overrun with ME/African muslims. Even if Nordic women continue to bear their 2.3 Nordic babies, the muslims will outnumber them and will keep bearing 6.8 babies per woman and the muslim men will father those children with multiple muslim women.

    The Nords are doomed unless they deport the muslim invaders.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Anon
  16. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    I think you are overstating the case for brain drain. Many leave temporarily and return, and it’s also well known that Israel has a flourishing hi tech industry with high paid jobs, not to mention, the extensive arms industry and military provide tech opportunities.

    I personally know several Israeli hi tech emigres in NYC who dream of returning to Israel and plan on doing so, seeing their stay here as work related and temporary, and their hearts they left in Israel.

    You are vastly overstating the case in your other list of problems. Israel built a fence that stopped African immigration to zero, and they are frankly described as infiltrators, not dreamers or undocumented Israelis by everyone. This demonstrates more political will than any other Western country.

    The failure to deport Africans there is unfortunate, but in a diverse political system some concessions must be made even to idealistic dreamers, provided they are minor. In the West, such people have taken over.

    As for demographics, all the trends favor Israel long term – the Arab growth rate has cratered since the 90s and continues to decline, and the Jewish growth rate is going up.

    You are correct that orthodox Jews contribute much to the Jewish growth rate, but even the most highly educated seculars, we have seen, have above replacement TFR.

    The Palestinian population is rapidly aging, and there is speculation that with far fewer young men it won’t be so interested in fighting anymore, and peace may cone as a result of demographic change.

    The political solutions you favor would transform Israel into a globalist economic outpost stripped of its specific character, a sterile Singapore in the Levant, with economic efficiency the priority.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Dmitry
  17. AaronB says:
    @Twodees Partain

    2.3 Nordic babies

    Its 1.8.

  18. What is the optimal population size of the islands of Japan, under current tech level?

    Or, is that when you reach 200 mil, the only way not dysgenic for you is to go for 300 mil?

    A sudden drop of course can be bad, but look at what happened right after WWII. Or in China right after the hunger period around 1960. Rapid pop increases.

    People often talk about the rate of replacement. May I ask why is it almost axiomatically good?

    • Replies: @Macon Richardson
    , @notanon
  19. @Mark G.

    Socialism is probably dysgenic

    Then again, perhaps it’s not probably dysgenic. But what the hey, this is as good a time as any to write an anti-socialist rant. And well you should! The socialistic water supply system in your community or the socialistic sewage treatment system or the socialistic road, street and sidewalk system or the socialistic building codes to keep newcomers from building a yurt made of yak skins next door to you or the socialistic police system or the socialistic firefighting system or the socialistic emergency management system–they’re probably dysgenic too. If everyone had to look after his own water, sewer, roadways (paths), neighbors, police and fire protection, we’d be a heartier people, self-sufficient and living the American dream.

  20. @yakushimaru

    It isn’t axiomatically good per se. It’s good if one wants to maintain and continue a cultural heritage that one has been born into.

    • Replies: @J
    , @yakushimaru
  21. @Thorfinnsson

    I have no data on miscegenation in Sweden, but one gets the impression that Sweden has much higher levels of ethnic segregation than other countries in Western Europe. Many Swedish women are likely to have fornicated with a non-white, usually abroad rather than in Sweden itself, but they settle down with Swedish men.

    10-15 years ago maybe. There has been a significant increase in miscegenation in the last decade and a half. It’s hard to put an exact number but a fair ballpark estimate, at least here in Stockholm, is about 20% of White women under the age of 35 and who have children have non-White kids, vast majority of them brown/black. That’s what I see and I move around quite a lot in this city and I purposefully try to guard against biases. (Many nationalists often overestimate these occurances due to strong feelings on the subject).

    Also, they are shipping tons of these trash third worlders to smaller cities, with the result that Stockholm’s city center is actually whiter than e.g. Oslo’s, but our smaller cities less so than Norway’s. Therefore, it isn’t just concentrated to the capital.

    Importantly, there has also been a non-trivial rise of Swedish men mixing with brown/black women, even if the overall balance is very lopsided to the women. I’d say around 80% of Swedish men who racemix still do so with East/SouthEast Asian women. And there are huge amounts of these import women here nowadays.

    Nobody can of course know the future, but I am skeptical that Sweden has strong long-term prospects on current trends. More likely is that there were will be islands of immense prosperity, especially wealthy areas in Stockholm, with an ever-more dysfunctional hinterland. This won’t matter much for elites, because they will be isolated from it, but it will not be a good experience for your working class/lower-middle class Swedes who are 40-50% of the ethnic Swedish population. They will not have any places left to go and increasingly no longer do. That’s also where most of the mixing takes place, which could explain the data, though it is slowly rising in ranks beyond that.

  22. J says: • Website
    @Macon Richardson

    It is axiomatically good per se.

    We are born with a mission to replace ourselves and increase our kin. We are biological machines programmed to do just that.

    You could rebel against your very self, but it will not make you happy. On the contrary.

    • Replies: @yakushimaru
  23. @Dmitry

    Illegal immigrants from Africa, do not leave and destroyed some areas of Israeli cities.

    The illegal immigrants have declined in numbers from their high in 2012-14. Israel sent many of them to various Western countries and repatriated some of them. Many of them are stuck in Holot and other areas. I’m aware of the problems in South Tel Aviv but it’s a minor picnic compared to the situation in many Western countries.

    A bigger problem for Israel is that it has bought into the melting pot idea for jews. The result is pictures like these:

    Secular Ashkenazis, the ones who carry the brunt of Israel’s output, are shrinking as a share of the population. This is often missed because the debate centers on jew vs non-jew, ignoring the damaging effects of intra-jewish miscengenation.

    Israel has a very strong smart fraction, though, and it also has a high fertility among them (as shown in the graph) so maybe all is not lost. Your story is also very anecdotal, you would need hard data to show a massive exodus of highly educated Israelis that is substantially above that of many other OECD countries.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Dmitry
  24. Hail says: • Website
    @Hail

    – Low-education mother genes: 31.8% –> 40.1% –> 48.4%

    – Med.-education mother genes: 49.6% –> 47.5% –> 43.7%

    – Low-education mother genes: 18.6% –> 12.4% –> 7.9%

    Bottom row should read: “High-education mother genes”

    The same calculation for Romania, maybe useful as a ‘control.’ The resulting child and grandchild generations (given replacement TFRs of 2.25, 2.15, 2.10 for low, med., high education, respectively):

    Share of genes per generation, Romania: [Current] –> [Child] –> [Grandchild]
    – Low-education mother genes: 32.1% –> 36.7% –> 41.5%
    – Med.-education mother genes: 37.4% –> 36.9% –> 36.0%
    – High-education mother genes: 30.5% –> 26.4% –> 22.5%

    (Romania’s dysgenic-fertility profile looks quite similar to Russia’s.)

    A slower slide than the alarming case with the Philippines.

    _______________

    Relevant to the Philippines is China’s eugenic-dysgenic profile. China is likely to make a bid to be the Philippines’ protecting power in Q2 of this century, as we have already seen the early stages in the 2010s. Is the IQ gap between the two widening? Narrowing?

    Share of genes per generation, China: [Current] –> [Child] –> [Grandchild]
    – Low-education mother genes: 61.1% –> 67.6% –> 73.5%
    – Med.-education mother genes: 22.4% –> 19.4% –> 16.5%
    – High-education mother genes: 16.5% –> 13.0% –> 10.0%

    _______________

    Now for trying to estimate actual IQ ‘hits’:

    This can be attempted by attaching IQ estimates to the three education levels and seeing what the the next two generations look like, given the above shifts in the genepools.

    The Philippines may be currently taking an IQ hit of up to -0.5 IQ points per decade (this depends on what the IQ for the much-expanding low-education group is); for Romania, it looks to be more like -0.25 IQpts/decade (but this depends on how stratified by IQ the education groups really are); China may be lowest of the three, at about -0.2 IQpts/decade, though a lot of talent probably remains in the low-education bracket in China. China may be more like a negligible -0.1 IQpts/decade (until they stratify fully and dysgenic fertility sinks in).

    • Replies: @Cicerone
  25. AaronB says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Secular Ashkenazis, the ones who carry the brunt of Israel’s output, are shrinking as a share of the population. This is often missed because the debate centers on jew vs non-jew, ignoring the damaging effects of intra-jewish miscengenation

    Since people tend to marry people with similar education and intelligence, Ashkenazim are just marrying educated and intelligent Mizrahi or Sephardic Jews.

    So the smart fraction that is emerging will be less Ashkenazi, but not any less smart.

    Since the smart fraction TFR is above replacement, this adds another layer of optimism.

    The trend is towards the whole country genuinely “melting” into one people anyways in all classes, and these Askenazi/Mizrahi differences are much weaker in each generation.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Mitleser
  26. tamako says:
    @Hail

    This is the first time the Philippines has ever ended up in one of Cicerone’s TFR tables, so I’d hoped to see some good news, but I end up seeing disastrous dysgenic fertility on top of brain drain…

    The worst thing about it is that Philippine public “higher education” is a hotbed for all the classist leftist crap alongside Bioleninism that’s accelerating as I type about it. There’s pressure to get more STEM graduates, so the quality of those who do get accepted suffers somewhat. And, when they fail…they shift out to more questionable courses.

    I want to hope, I really do, but if I watch us follow America (culturally) off a cliff, am I really right to?

  27. @AaronB

    Since people tend to marry people with similar education and intelligence, Ashkenazim are just marrying educated and intelligent Mizrahi or Sephardic Jews.

    So the smart fraction that is emerging will be less Ashkenazi, but not any less smart.

    No, it’s all about motivation! Genes don’t matter.

    Anyway, you don’t fully understand how this works.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  28. AaronB says:
    @reiner Tor

    I think you are suffering from PTSD 🙂

    I thought I gave you a long enough time to cool off…

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  29. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    The shares vary so much that I don’t know how useful these comparisons are.

    For example, the Latin American countries have shares of “high” education in the teens to low 20s percent range, while the Nordics have around twice that, with about 40+% having “high” education.

    So we’re comparing almost half the population of Nordic women with around a fifth to a quarter of Latin women. You’d have to look at the “high” education among Nordics further and subdivide it into higher levels to get a better comparison with the Latins. You’d want to look at for example Nordic women with postgrad degrees. I imagine Nordic women with Master’s and Phd’s have lower fertility than the rest of the 40+% with “high” education.

  30. @Thulean Friend

    That’s a lot.

    In London I would put it at under 10% of whites with children being mixed; a mixture of white women with black children and WMAF. A lot of the former are Poles or other Eastern Euros as well, sad to say.

  31. g2k says:

    It says on the table that “High” is defined as post secondary. In England that means sixth form, school for 16-18 year olds; equivalent to American high school. If that definition actually does line up with ours, we’re in big trouble.

    Edit: here’s the definition
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Classification_of_Education

    In conclusion: were screwed.

  32. @Thulean Friend

    10-15 years ago maybe. There has been a significant increase in miscegenation in the last decade and a half. It’s hard to put an exact number but a fair ballpark estimate, at least here in Stockholm, is about 20% of White women under the age of 35 and who have children have non-White kids, vast majority of them brown/black. That’s what I see and I move around quite a lot in this city and I purposefully try to guard against biases. (Many nationalists often overestimate these occurances due to strong feelings on the subject).

    This is also my view. As I remember, most of Thorfinnsson’s memories of Sweden are from the 90s and 00s, when it was indeed highly segregated, and things have changed a good deal since then. Still in the mid-to-late-00s, for instance, most nightclubs around Stureplan, Stockholm’s glitziest district, refused entry to all but the best-connected immigrants, and as late as the early 10s, you could still run into people from small-town Sweden who had barely spoken to an immigrant their whole life.

    As for Sweden’s TFR, there are two things to remember: (1) Swedish society goes at great length to put every young Swede through its higher education system — including newly-arrived immigrants — so a college degree is a worse proxy for intelligence here than in most other countries; (2) Even with an economy that is famously generous to motherhood, our TFR is still below the steady-state level. If Russia had our levels of welfare, I’m sure its TFR would explode.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Thulean Friend
  33. Rosie says:
    @Swedish Family

    Even with an economy that is famously generous to motherhood, our TFR is still below the steady-state level. If Russia had our levels of welfare, I’m sure its TFR would explode.

    One of the problems with these types of approaches is that they just assume women are the ones who decide how many children a couple have.

  34. @AaronB

    I reserve the right to reply to your stupid comments remarking that they are stupid. If it triggers you, you can simply filter me out, or just scroll over my replies. I certainly wouldn’t mind you getting a nervous breakdown and leaving us altogether, but I suspect we’re still not quite there, nor will we be for a long while, unfortunately.

    Have a nice day away from the computer and smartphone!

  35. @Macon Richardson

    If you argue this way, then how are you supposed to tell, per Mr Sailer, the President of Tanzania to maybe try to lower their country’s fertility rate?

    The culture heritage is about the border etc. Not necessarily a fertility rate > 2.

  36. @J

    We’re not rabbits. If you have a country, then you know that you’re at least a tad bit more than that. What kind of animal uses fertility rate to preserve their culture heritage?

    • Replies: @notanon
  37. Cicerone says:
    @Hail

    I tried to quantify IQ loss as well. In an earlier version of this table, I named it IQ loss per generation, but realized that this is based on the assumption of perfect stratification and 100% heritability, which is of course impossible, so real IQ loss is much lower than my calculated values. So I for now call it “dysgenic index”. The numbers themselves are meaningless, but they are good for a comparison between countries.

    In order to calculate them, I sliced the normal distribution in parts according to education levels, so if 40% are low educated, 40% medium and 20% high, I assumed that the lowest 40% of the normal distribution are occupied by the low, the next 40% by the medium and the rightmost 20% by the high educated. I calculated the mean “IQ” value for each slice, and used these to project the next generation. Then I calculated their average again, and compared it to the average of the initial (which is 0 by definition, as we have a normal distribution).

    This index takes into account fertility differences between education levels, but also their distribution. If low educated have a TFR of 4 and highe ducated of 2, then it still depends on the percentages of each level. A country with 99% low educated and 1% high educated in this case has less of a dysgenic effect than a country with 70% low educated and 30% high educated. This is important because generally, education categories are not comparable across countries.

    Based on this, here are the eugneic indices for some countries (the lower the value, the more dysgenic. Positivee values mean eugenic fertility). I only provide the first decimal, because those are not very precise estimates:

    Denmark, Finland, 0.2 (most eugenic trend of all countries)
    Sweden 0.1
    Canada -0,5
    Egypt, Indonesia -0,6
    Japan -0,7
    Australia -0,8
    Germany, Poland -0,9
    France, Netherlands, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, UK, Vietnam -1.0
    Belgium -1,1
    Italy -1,2
    Russia, Spain -1,3
    USA -1,4
    Israel -1,5
    Romania -1,8
    China, South Africa -2,4
    India -2,5
    Iran -2,9
    Turkey -3,0
    Philippines -3,4
    Mexico -3,7
    Brazil, Peru -3,9
    Colombia -4,1
    Ethiopia -4,2
    Haiti -5,6 (most dysgenic trend)

  38. @Cicerone

    I can’t even imagine what even more dysgenic Haitians would look like

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  39. @Dmitry

    “Israeli Jews have to pay very high university tuition fees”

    Not really. In a university academic year would cost around 11,000 nis a year, around 3000$~

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  40. g2k says:
    @Cicerone

    Don’t want to repeat myself here but, as per my point above, the classifications are really really low. The low and middle percentages should be added together and compared with the high for this table to be of much use. “High” here means someone has completed high school, or it’s vocational equivalent, nowhere near ‘smart faction’ level, “medium” means high school dropout and “low” means someone who left school before 16. In the western world that only really happens with juvenile delinquents and people with very serious learning difficulties so, even if some countires do better than others, those numbers are absolutely awful for most.

    • Replies: @Cicerone
  41. Anounder says:
    @Sam Coulton

    It’s just Anglo/American cope. Anglos went around the world spreading liberalism and Americans have disastrous demographics. Negro males (note that the likes of Pajeets and more Kunta looking Arabs count) being desirable is more or less just a New Worlder thing. It was Americans who started the praise for Oriental women (see Madame Butterfly). Had a president who had bastard Mulatto children. Muricans, for all the Jim Crow and segregation don’t really have room to talk on miscegenation.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
  42. @Cicerone

    Thanks, very interesting.

    I would note that there is less of a correlation between education and IQ in the Third World, so I would assume the dysgenic index for them isn’t as completely catastrophic as it appears.

    Interesting that Indonesia is the highest Third World nation.

    In my calculations based on PISA performance/number of siblings, Indonesia was the only country to see an outright positive trend: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/nor-breeding-their-best/

    The rankings are in fact rather similar across both methods.

    • Replies: @Hail
  43. Mitleser says:
    @AaronB

    So the smart fraction that is emerging will be less Ashkenazi, but not any less smart.

    Since the smart fraction TFR is above replacement, this adds another layer of optimism.

    It is above replacement, but it is not enough to maintain their share in the Israeli society.
    In relative terms, they are shrinking, just like their counterparts in other socities.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @reiner Tor
  44. @Sam Coulton


    Obviously, I can’t vouch for this map…which claims its source is the Huffington Post, and of course even if true it doesn’t note the race of partners. But let’s assume it’s true while I establish my priors.

    I have a Swedish background and family and have been to the country more than thirty times. I know what I’m talking about.

    While Sweden’s welfare state and strong economy facilitate family formation, they also facilitate a “fun” early adulthood which gives youth the resources and time to participate in nightlife, travel, and study abroad. Young Swedes are encouraged to party a lot and experiment sexually, as well as to “find” themselves. And how do you suppose 20-somethings on vacation in Thailand for an entire month “find” themselves?

    Higher “education” is free, and nearly half of young Swedes have attained tertiary degrees. Studying abroad for a year is very common, and it’s also quite common for young Swedes to work abroad for a time before returning to settle in Sweden.

    Northern European men can be for many young Western women “boring”, so certain adventurous women are interested in having a lover from a more passionate, R-selected culture. This is nothing new and not even entirely the product of globohomo propaganda. In the postwar period there was a fad for Italian lovers among German and Nordic women. I believe there’s even a German pop song from the ’60s about this.

    If you want to hear something really unpleasant, when my brother lived in Africa he reported than in Tanzania there was a group of Norwegian (not Swedish but close enough) nursing students on vacation seeking…guess what.

    These “passionate” men obviously do not make suitable partners, and the sort of sexual dalliances women are keen to experiment with while on vacation or working abroad are not what they seek once they’ve established themselves and seek to start families and attain bourgeois respectability. Given the segregation and structure of Swedish society, the “marriage” (increasingly disappearing in Sweden) partner is a Swedish man.

    I don’t see why there are men in our sphere who seek to defend the non-existent virtue of women from Western cultures. Or perhaps I should simply say modern, as this problem exists everywhere outside of the Islamic world. The entire structure of society promotes promiscuity, so why is anyone surprised when women partake in this? Other than those who end up murdered, there are practically zero negative consequences for them.

  45. @Anounder

    Anglos went around the world spreading liberalism

    At least we also spread homophobia at the same time

    Negro males (note that the likes of Pajeets and more Kunta looking Arabs count) being desirable is more or less just a New Worlder thing

    Didn’t exist until Jews took over American culture

    It was Americans who started the praise for Oriental women (see Madame Butterfly). Had a president who had bastard Mulatto children. Muricans, for all the Jim Crow and segregation don’t really have room to talk on miscegenation.

    Despite hundreds of years of contact, the average white American is at most in the very low single digits of black/native ancestry and the average black at about 20%. I don’t think there is anywhere with similar levels of racial interaction over hundreds of years which remains equally separate.

    • Replies: @Anounder
  46. @Thorfinnsson

    I’m surprised since Spanish women always seem much more flirtatious and easy with their favours than Northern European women. The Ukraine I can believe though.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  47. Cicerone says:
    @g2k

    That is rue, which is why I have calculated these “Eugenic index” values, in order to have a measure of what the trend really is. It would be better to have more categories at the higher end of course, but the data is as it is.

  48. @Thulean Friend

    I suppose by now the tipping point is passed to facilitate domestic mixing, particularly in the lower classes where the higher aggression of vibrant men makes them attractive as partners. My family is also of high class origin which limits exposure.

    Earlier in this century the “vibrants” were still mostly self-contained in places like Rinkeby. I’ve also noted that they’ve actually finally started entering the workforce. You see non-white service workers now, which you didn’t fifteen years ago. I had an Iraqi tax driver the last time I was there, whereas it wasn’t so long ago that taxi drivers were from the former Yugoslavia or actually Swedish.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  49. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Dmitry

    Regarding folks from the former USSR in Israel, among some other things in the Jewish state, Israeli sports has benefited.

  50. AaronB says:
    @Mitleser

    Correct. They are losing share to a modest degree, but gaining in absolute numbers.

    Israel’s military situation probably makes this a suitable arrangement – you don’t want a top heavy populace, you need grunts. But you also want to grow your smart fraction in absolute terms.

  51. @Rosie

    Men in our sphere would do well to lurk in places like Reddit’s r/relationships at times to see the frustrations wives have with their husbands at times. There are indeed many men who fear fatherhood, as well as existing fathers who don’t want more children for lifestyle reasons.

    That said, the biological clock of females means the current system of delaying family formation until “education” is complete and a career is established puts a hard ceiling on TFR. The problem is made worse by promoting a “party” lifestyle for young women.

    The entire schooling system also discourages the obvious solution of women pairing up with older men. Husbands are still older than wives as has always been the case, by pairings tend to be quite close by age. Doesn’t help that few people stay in shape as they age.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  52. @Kent Nationalist

    I don’t have any experience in Spain, but if we grant that the map is true then it should be noted that young Spaniards suffer from high poverty and unemployment. They therefore have fewer opportunities to engage in irresponsible sexual behavior than young Swedes.

    Since Spain became “modern” far more recently than Sweden, they’re also more likely to have disapproving parents, grandparents, and extended family. Within living memory Spanish women clad themselves like Arabs.

    Scandinavians also have a simple solution to dealing with Scandinavian shyness: getting wasted. Northern Europeans have a “problem” with binge drinking that Meds do not.

    It’s generally hypothesized that this is due to a shorter history of agriculture and alcohol production, and thus there are likely fewer genes in the population which protect against alcoholism.

    It may be that the causation is different. Perhaps we have evolutionary adaptations that predispose us to binge drinking because this facilitates socialization and reproduction.

  53. Hail says: • Website
    @Cicerone

    Dr. Richard Lynn and co-authors estimated, in the early 2000s but using 20th century data, that the Black US genotypic dysgenic rate was up to twice the White US rate, and using somewhat firmer data than the vague, three-tier education level data here.

    So if the White US rate is -0.25 IQpts/decade, the Black rate was -0.5 IQpts/decade.

    • Replies: @Cicerone
  54. Cicerone says:
    @Hail

    For the dysgenic trend, I used the six education groups available. For this table, I grouped no education, incomplete primary, primary and lower secondary into “low”, but in my calculation, I used them separately.

    The thing is that fertility acording to education shifts over time, so studies using 20th century data can give little clues about the present situation.

    • Replies: @Hail
  55. Hail says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    there is less of a correlation between education and IQ in the Third World, so I would assume the dysgenic index for them isn’t as completely catastrophic as it appears

    An attempt to use this data to quantify IQ loss should probably only be semi-seriously made in countries with similarly high education-development levels. That is, societies in which a smart person is likely to end of with high final education, and a dumb one with low final education. Say, the OECD-tier alone.

    That is one of the two big “asterisks” here, with the other being (as many commenters have noted) the ethnic factor. In Malaysia, the apparent dysgenic-fertility-by-education could be almost entirely ethnic, with Chinese at lower fertility, but intra-Chinese and intra-Malay fertility could be near eugenically stable, as in Vietnam and Indonesia; the same may apply to the USA.

  56. Hail says: • Website

    Of interest:

    Evidence of dysgenic fertility in China
    Article in Intelligence 57 (July-August):15-24 · April 2016

    Mingrui Wang
    Beijing University of Agriculture

    John G.R. Fuerst
    Ulster Institute for Social Research

    The relationship between fertility, intelligence, and education was examined in China using a large sample sourced from the population-representative China Family Panel Studies (CFPS) dataset. […] The strength of recent selection against gf in China substantially increased between the 1960s and the mid-1980s. Later (between 1986 and 2000), the speed of decline in gf due to selection stabilized at about [negative] .31 points per decade with a slightly downward trend

    A negative relationship between educational attainment and fertility was additionally found. Both negative relations were stronger for women.

  57. Hail says: • Website
    @Cicerone

    fertility acording to education shifts over time, so studies using 20th century data can give little clues about the present situation

    That’s true. I don’t know for sure, but I don’t think Lynn used education in his calculation. I think it may have been WORDSUM or an equivalent. Maybe someone has the study I am thinking of handy and can link to it.

  58. Anon[370] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    Israel is in a fantastic situation compared to the rest of the developed world.

    The developed world is not in a fantastic situation due to Jewish political influence from within their nations.

    The foremost example in the twentieth century being the fact that Jewish Power would not let Germans have their nation because Jews oppose European eugenic policies. Which is, in fact, the same policy of resistance to any minor to major modern eugenic policy for Europeans.

    Diaspora Jewish political power is the core supporter of modern policies that bring in dysgenic populations and discourage healthy European gentile culture that would be eugenic for smart populations.

    How eugenic the Jewish group is, in general, is debatable and difficult to ascertain outside of all of the propaganda, oppression of other groups, and overt nepotism / mafia behavior that leads to Jewish achievement well outside of individual ability that the European gentile population almost universally can only rely upon.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  59. Rosie says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    That said, the biological clock of females means the current system of delaying family formation until “education” is complete and a career is established puts a hard ceiling on TFR. The problem is made worse by promoting a “party” lifestyle for young women.

    Bullshit. A woman who doesn’t start till she’s thirty still has plenty of time to have four, even six, children, and we don’t even need that many. The only reason we needed that many in the past was because of infant mortality. This is a Mozart family portrait:

    https://i.scdn.co/image/5168f36cdf40c0824766fcb65c19c1d9a12ad3cf

    Mom, Dad, brother, sister. Mrs. Mozart bore seven children. Only two survived.

    The entire schooling system also discourages the obvious solution of women pairing up with older men.

    That is a terrible solution. Unmarried young men are notorious for whoremongering and pumping and dumping.

  60. @Thorfinnsson

    That map is BS, there is no way in hell that Irish women are the most promiscuous in Europe

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  61. AaronB says:
    @Anon

    I absolutely support all Jews, or most, moving to Israel. I don’t think its good for us to be a minority in other lands and I don’t think its good for you.

    However, for this to happen Israel would have to at least annex the West Bank and peacefully transfer large numbers of Arabs to other Arab countries, their natural homes.

    For most of Israel’s history, European countries were hostile and ferociously critical of any Israeli action towards self assertion or even self defense. I remember well in the 90s the absolutely relentless and unceasing European criticism of Israeli behavior that was even defensive in nature, like mild responses to terrorism, and of course the Europeans were at the forefront of opposing the settler movement. It began to seem that Europeans simply wanted Israel to cease existing.

    That European statehood is itself undergoing a crisis in the 21st century can be seen as a kind of karmic response on the part of the universe, although it seems self inflicted rather than Jews being responsible.

    Since Europe is moving towards a more nationalistic direction, there will likely be more sympathy for the legitimate national aspirations of Israel and the basis for a genuine cooperation between the two.

    Under such conditions, the movement if the majority if world Jewry to Israel may become feasible.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  62. @Rosie

    One of the problems with these types of approaches is that they just assume women are the ones who decide how many children a couple have.

    This is true. I have even seen it in my family. The wife of my older brother dearly wants another child (they have two), but he won’t hear of it since it’s too much work already, he says, with two. I have tried to make him see reason, but to no avail.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  63. @Rosie

    LOL. Stop being such a white knight.

    Women always have been and always will be the problem.

    Educating them is useless. They have no other real purpose besides child production. They do have a bunch of secondary purposes such as “pleasure”, house-maintenance, cooking and a few other things.

    If they’re not producing at a fertility rate above 2.1, that ethnic group/society will disappear in the long term. The “liberation” of women is much more to blame for everything that’s wrong with women today, not men.

    There’s enough “white knight” cucks in our world, we don’t need more …

    • Replies: @Epigon
  64. @(((They))) Live

    Sweden and Belgium also have extremely high rates of promiscuity. It’s technically not clear whether Swedish or “Belgian” women are actually more promiscuous than Irish women, or which country’s women on average are the most promiscuous.

  65. Epigon says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    That’s a lady you are addressing so your demeanour and calling out of “whiteknighting” are inappropriate.

    Furthermore, I am deeply interested in your opinion of your mother and female relatives, and especially in your family size.

    There is this Serbian thing where everyone is full of shit on family values, tradition and conservatism while they are degenerate, hypocritical, hedonistic opportunists. In addition, they all lust after a specific type of “fun” women.

    Ich begann sie allmählich zu hassen.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  66. @Thorfinnsson

    Earlier in this century the “vibrants” were still mostly self-contained in places like Rinkeby. I’ve also noted that they’ve actually finally started entering the workforce. You see non-white service workers now, which you didn’t fifteen years ago. I had an Iraqi tax driver the last time I was there, whereas it wasn’t so long ago that taxi drivers were from the former Yugoslavia or actually Swedish.

    There are. This is in part because of more immigrants in absolute numbers, in part because of affirmative action, and in part because the traditional Swedish working class has moved up a step or two on the educational ladder.

  67. @Rosie

    Bullshit. A woman who doesn’t start till she’s thirty still has plenty of time to have four, even six, children, and we don’t even need that many. The only reason we needed that many in the past was because of infant mortality. This is a Mozart family portrait:

    https://i.scdn.co/image/5168f36cdf40c0824766fcb65c19c1d9a12ad3cf

    Mom, Dad, brother, sister. Mrs. Mozart bore seven children. Only two survived.

    If women nurse, which I assume you favor, this inhibits pregnancy for a few years. Hence why hunter-gatherers had children only every four years. This is also why the aristocracy in the past used wet nurses.

    As women age not only does pregnancy become less likely, but carries increased risk. There’s a reason that pregnancies at age 35 and later are referred to as geriatric pregnancies.

    There’s also the factor of energy. Being a new mother at twenty is much easier than being a new mother at forty.

    That is a terrible solution. Unmarried young men are notorious for whoremongering and pumping and dumping.

    Huh? I was suggesting that we (re)normalize young women marrying older men (within reason). Of course, this would require older men to actually stay in shape and dress properly. No dad bods please, especially if you’re not even a dad. Western culture is extremely segregated by age cohorts. Even having friends of a different generation is uncommon.

    That said, in 1956 the median age of first marriage dropped to 22.5 for men. These young silent generation fathers went on to have stable marriages and large families because they lived in a society which was still pro-family.

    https://www.thespruce.com/estimated-median-age-marriage-2303878

    • Replies: @Rosie
  68. @Swedish Family

    Raising children is too much work in many respects, and this needs to be addressed at a societal level.

    Parents are expected to be chauffeurs, event coordinators, unpaid academic tutors, sports coaches, legal advocates, college prep coaches, personal chefs, and more. I’m sure it’s all very exhausting, especially since parents are mostly out of shape and older these days. And frequently both work full time, which increases the work burden on the father while further draining the already tired mother.

    Even little things like child safety seats are an issue. When baby boomers were children, child safety seats didn’t even exist. Just throw your kids in the car and go. In fact seat belts were optional on cars. Now you’re legally required in most cases to have them. They cost money, they’re a pain to install, and it takes quite a bit of time to strap in and release children.

    Each additional safety seat is more work and expense, and once you have more than two kids you generally need to buy a larger, and thus more expensive, car. These larger vehicles which are still affordable are usually minivans, which any self-respecting man is ashamed to be seen in or even admit to owning.

    Is the social benefit of increased safety in car accidents for children worth the cost? I don’t know.

    There was a post on Marginal Revolution lately asking the rhetorical question if big business hates families. We might go on to ask if our entire society hates families. Families are saddled with massive burdens but receive little assistance in managing these burdens other than lip service about how wonderful parents are.

  69. @Epigon

    Oh ok, thanks for explaining the first part lol. Now things make a bit more sense.

    As for my family size, well my parents had 3 children with me as one of them. So they did their part to have a fertility rate of above 2.1

    I don’t understand what you mean by “opinion” of mother and female relatives. I actually happen to have more male relatives overall strangely (?) enough. At least that i actually keep in contact with/socialize.

    As for most Serbians being full of shit about tradition, what i would say is that everyone knows the social expectations to be traditional are strong, so no one wants to publicly go against them. Given the way that modern culture and society is currently set up, it’s completely understandable why most people cave in to temptation since it’s unfortunately too easy to do so. I must truthfully admit that i engaged in some degeneracy a few years earlier although i stopped that some time ago. Still, in general it’s much more acceptable for men to engage in sexual degeneracy (just like it traditionally has been) compared to women since women are the ones from where children spawn.

    LOL at “Gradually I began to hate them.”

    • Replies: @Epigon
  70. Anon[855] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twodees Partain

    The Nords are doomed unless they deport the muslim invaders.

    They won’t be deported.

    They’ll be slaughtered in the final apocalyptic war that is slated for the West, which is what they are being imported to fight.

    The war is designed to destroy Western nations in-total, as well as the Arabs as a race, leaving Israel as the only nation left standing.

    This is the final fulfillment of the Jewish Messianic idea and their scriptures.

    Read your Bible for some clues, but the Jewish texts state these facts outright.

    Our current leaders are unequivocal traitors and our destroyers: serving Jewish strategy.

    http://www.betemunah.org/edom.html

    Edom

    By Rabbi Dr. Hillel ben David (Greg Killian)

    Jewish tradition gives us the following formula:

    Esau=Edom=Rome=Christianity.

    These two, Yaaqov and Esau, are going to be fighting throughout history. Later, these powers coalesce; Rome gives rise to the Western culture and its religion and it continues to fight the Jewish people.

    In the future, the children of Yishmael will rule over the Holy land for a long time while the land is
    empty, just as their circumcision is empty and without completion. And they will hinder the children of Israel from returning to their place, until their merit in the Holy land runs out.

    The Jewish scriptural reference for the below text that founds my primary claim in my opening paragraph of this post:

    Zohar Torah portion of Va’era page 32a

    alternately:

    Soncino Zohar, Shemoth, Section 2, Page 32a

    In the future the children of Yishmael will stir great wars in the world. And the children of Edom [the West] will gather against them, and make war with them, one on the sea, and one on the land, and one by Jerusalem; and each one will prevail over the other but the Holy land will notfall to the hands of Edom.

    At the same time, a nation from the end of the world will be awakened against wicked Rome. (Rome here is said to refer to the spiritual center of western civilization) and it will make war against her for three months, and many nations will gather there, and they will fall by her hand, until all the children of Edom will gather against her from all corners of the earth.

    And then G-d will awaken Himself against them, as it says, “a sacrificial slaughter for the Lord in Batzra”, and it says, “to shake the corners of the Land”. And after this, the children of Yishmael will be finished from the world. And all the supernal powers of the nations will be broken, and no power will remain above except for the power of Israel alone.

    Our festival readings during Succoth also speak to the war between Edom and Ishmael

    The Haftorot for both the first day of Succoth, from Zechariah 14:1-21, and Shabbat Chol HaMoed Succoth. from Yechezkel 38:18 – 39:16, describe the wars of Gog and Magog, the battles preceding the advent of the Messianic Era. These battles revolve around Jerusalem with the chief combatants being Edom and Yishmael (see Malbim to Yechezkel 38:2).

    The small book written by the prophet Ovadiah contains a prophecy regarding the end of Edom:

    Ovadiah 1:17-21 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions. And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph aflame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be [any] remaining of the house of Esau;

    If Esau / Edom’s success is inversely proportional to that of Yaaqov / Israel, then it follows naturally that the punishment of Edom who now enslaves us in exile will come at the same time as the redemption.

    Note that Jews see Westerners in control of their own nations as a form of Jewish slavery.

    It is also worth noting that “Shemot”refers to the book of Exodus.

    The next text excerpt in this post is from the Zohar (Kabbalah) commentary on Shemot-Exodus.

    In the Zohar commentary on Shemot-Exodus, the commentary is not in regard to the past (which has no meaning in the Jewish religion as non-Jews perceive the past) but in regard to the events leading up to their future concept of the Messianic Era.

    This gives you a clue on how to understand the Jewish religion and its texts. In this instance: Exodus.

    Arguably the most relevant code in the texts, out of many codes, is that they are meant to be read as events happening in the present.

    Whomever sees themselves as historically rooted in the events of the OT, when properly interpreting it, is to see the OT as a continuing modern narrative (and therefore modern political instruction for that group).

    Exodus is not a myth that lives in the past, but in the present. Mircea Eliade documented this religious system method in his book: The Myth of the Eternal Return

    The Jews are now symbolically marching out of Egypt

    (or the West, which they view as enslaving them whenever they do not fully control it).

    The Exodus from Egypt having always been a myth (as asserted by mainstream scholars), or more accurately veiled political instruction to control and then destroy whatever enemies the Jews invent on their march toward destroying their Northern enemies as well as the Arabs.

    Acquiring the promised land in the myth of Exodus, along with the genocide of the non-Jews to get it, is modern political instruction on how to achieve their Messianic Age.

    Nothing in the below Chabad excerpt was inserted by me. It is 100% a Rabbinical edit:

    https://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/1391003/jewish/Daily-Zohar-Vaeira-Day-5.htm

    Zohar, Shemoth, Section 2, Page 32a

    The children of Ishmael [i.e. the Arab nations] will cause great wars in the world and the children of Edom will gather against them and wage war against them, one on the sea, one on the dry land, and one near Jerusalem. And they [the children of Edom] will rule over them [the children of Ishmael], but the Holy Land will not be given over to the children of Edom. [The children of Edom is the Christian West, for Edom is Rome (see Num. 24:19, Rashi) and Rome signifies Greece-Rome and the Roman Catholic Church, the foundations of Western Civilization]

    At that time, a nation from the end of the earth will be aroused against evil Rome and wage war against it for three months. Nations will gather there, and [Rome] will fall into their hands, until all the children of Edom will gather against it [that nation] from all the corners of the world. Then G‑d will be roused against them. This is the meaning of: “For G‑d has a sacrifice in Botzrah”. (Isaiah 34:6) And afterwards, it is written: “That it might take hold of the ends of the earth…” (Job 38:13) He will destroy the descendants of Ishmael from the land, and break all the powers of [all the nations’ guardian angels] Above. There will not remain any power of any people on earth, except the power of Israel alone.

    BeRahamim LeHayyim: One cannot ignore the facts. To do so entreats disaster. Read this in terms of the daily news, and substitute Arab nations for Ishmael, and the West and US for Edom.

    • Replies: @Anon
  71. Epigon says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I can now conclude that you are not married, have no children and have had a promiscuous, degenerate lifestyle.

    In other words, you’ve had your share of “fun” and partying, but now preach on female emancipation and liberation, promiscuity and negative social trends.

    It comes of as hypocritical – “do as I tell you and not as I do/did”.
    The absence of virtuous, bona fide reactionaries is problematic.

  72. Anon[505] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    From this text alone, within which we can observe Jews being the only beneficiary, Jews are not our friends, nor friends or Patriots of the USA.

    This text, calling for the destruction of the West in total to include the United States so that Israel can be the only World power left standing, marks the Jewish group as a traitorous group intent on destroying our nation as well as the entire West for their benefit.

    No more shuckin and jivin by Jews on this website should be tolerated, given this context.

    No matter what other arguments that they make, this Jewish scripture marks them as our primary enemy: which is how they see us (as stated by the first Rabbi quoted above).

    Nothing else matters in that context, and they should not be engaged on any level. Every one of their positions should be read as having a primarily hostile intent if not to be an outright lie.

  73. Epigon says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Raising children is a tough challenge when both parents are employed and moved to the town/city from somewhere else, more so in case they moved from rural to urban setting.

    Yugocommunists and Bolsheviks atomized large agrarian families, moved them to small flats in massive proletarian sprawls – lo and behold – fertility collapsed.

    I suspect similar thing occurred in Capitalist societies where people move to more attractive/dynamic urban centres in search of opportunities.

    Whereas the burden of raising children is spread on family members in large families and villages with several related households in them – grandparents, uncles, aunts – there is no one to help with it in modern settings.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  74. @Thorfinnsson

    I agree with all this. Another great difference with previous eras, and one that Spandrell twittered about some months ago, is that kids back then would spend whole evenings and weekends outdoors, romping around with the neighborhood kids. This seems very rare these days (but not in developing countries, as Spandrell noted) and means that parents get very little quality time on their own. If you have ever babysat kids, you will know how hard it can be even to read a book while they are around. Now imagine this setup every weekend for half a decade.

    What is odd about this safety mania is that the dangers of having kids running around unsupervised are very low. Every passing adult will keep an eye on them, and kiddie fiddlers — so far as you find them in a leafy suburb — are typically family members or otherwise related to the child, not random strangers who happen to pass a playground.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  75. @Epigon

    Well i’m still young and i intend to get married. So i still have time (under 30). I just need more money and security. I should also clarify that my life situation is actually somewhat similar to AP’s/Anatoly’s that i’m actually living in the diaspora and west (Anglosphere but not UK or USA) right now (actually have spent a few years in Serbia), but intend to return long term to Serbia. Ideally if i could find a woman to have a family with and 3 children (minimum), it would be amazing, but first sorting out money is a must.

    There’s nothing hypocritical about men telling or lecturing women on much of anything. That’s how things always were before and that’s how things always will be unless we won’t exist.

    I was being completely honest about my behavior habits. What about you though? Are you married? Do you have kids?

    • Replies: @Rosie
  76. @Swedish Family

    I grew up in a smaller town and your observations are 100% correct. We basically had almost no non-Whites. In my secondary school (ages 12-15), we did not have a single non-White in our class. There were 5 other parallell classes for all three age groups and I think there were at most 2 or 3 non-Whites across all classes per age group, so something like 2-3% in total. And they were all hyperassimilated.

    Everything really went downhill after 9/11. We didn’t get afghans but we got huge amounts of iraqis and especially somalians. I went back to my old school a few years ago when I was visiting and I could literally count the amount of white children on a single hand on the schoolyard. This is a school that has capacity for 500 kids. I was told that all the white kids now go to schools just outside the small town in a small village. It’s ironic because back then these small villages had to send all their kids to our town, which created some amount of resentment. We also looked down upon them as hicks (though we were all provincial types in reality, but there’s always a pecking order). But apparently they have created new private schools outside of town (fria skolvalet) to deal with this demand, giving rise to substantial segregation. SD is now big in the municipality so the social justice warrior types are a lot weaker, so despite some bleating, not much is being done about this.

    I have a hard time feeling sympathy. These people voted for what they got, by and large. Most young Swedes just go to the bigger cities. There’s actually less ethnic tension here in my experience. Even Rinkeby is getting slowly gentrified with a lot of newly constructed buildings. Only the most socioeconomically successful immigrants stay on and many of them are more liberal.

    Plus Stockholm gets most of the best international migrants to Sweden, which have been coming in large droves since the last center-“right” government radically liberalised work migration requirements in 2011. While there are still many rapefugees coming, a non-trivial share of decently skilled Asian migrants are also showing up, and they concentrate in Stockholm whereas rapefugees get pushed out into the hinterlands and on the margins. So elite Swedes get a kind of “soft multiculturalism” with mostly assimilated immigrants. It’s really the working/lower-middle class Swedes out in the sub-50K towns and villages who get the raw end of the stick, but who cares about them right? Just about a bunch of obsolete racists. Those are also the strongest areas for SD.

  77. Rosie says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    There’s nothing hypocritical about men telling or lecturing women on much of anything. That’s how things always were before and that’s how things always will be unless we won’t exist.

    Because we’ve always done it that way.

  78. Rosie says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    If women nurse, which I assume you favor, this inhibits pregnancy for a few years.

    Right. That’s what your doctor tells you. Then you turn up pregnant while you’re still nursing your 1 year old. Even if you start at 26 and space your children four years apart, you can still have 3 before 35.

    Huh? I was suggesting that we (re)normalize young women marrying older men (within reason).

    And my question to you is what are these young men going to be doing with themselves if they’re single during their twenties?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  79. @Epigon

    I can now conclude that you are not married, have no children and have had a promiscuous, degenerate lifestyle.

    In other words, you’ve had your share of “fun” and partying, but now preach on female emancipation and liberation, promiscuity and negative social trends.

    It comes of as hypocritical – “do as I tell you and not as I do/did”.
    The absence of virtuous, bona fide reactionaries is problematic.

    You have a point, but we should not forget that 19th century Europeans were expert hypocrites. I read somewhere that even the small Swedish town of Uppsala once had thousands of prostitutes (I seem to remember over 10,000, but that that seems a fantastically high figure). This is worth bearing in mind when you read writers like Tolstoy (epic skirt chaser) and Chekhov (epic whoremonger): the attempts at moral uprightness were very real, but 19th century man was no stranger to vice.

    I happen to agree, by the way, with Žižek, who says (1) that the loss of this hypocricy over the past century is part of what separates Northern Europeans from their eastern and southern neighbors, and (2) that this “practice what you preach” mentality is sometimes a source of weakness since societies need a bit of hypocrisy to run smoothly (and, one might add, to avoid certain societal dysfuntions).

  80. @Thulean Friend

    I have a hard time feeling sympathy. These people voted for what they got, by and large.

    People can’t think for themselves. That’s reality, and therefore it’s appropriate to feel sympathy.

    Though the appropriate lesson to be drawn is that normies are cattle who must be ruled with an iron fist by a belligerent, autistic vanguard.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  81. @Epigon

    Birth rates were negatively slammed in four waves imo.

    The first wave was the voluntary suppression of elite fertility in order to participate in “society” and increase the amount of resources inherited by heirs.

    The second wave was from industrialization and urbanization (what you just described).

    The third wave was from birth control and promiscuity.

    The fourth wave was from helicopter parenting, “diversity”, and electronic entertainment.

  82. @Swedish Family

    In America things have gotten so bad that busybodies now call the police when they see unsupervised children playing outside.

    The shift from rail to motorized transport is also a major problem in cities. Used to be kids played outside in the streets in urban neighborhoods, which now is obviously dangerous.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  83. @Rosie

    Right. That’s what your doctor tells you. Then you turn up pregnant while you’re still nursing your 1 year old. Even if you start at 26 and space your children four years apart, you can still have 3 before 35.

    I’m aware that nursing is not a fool-proof method of contraception.

    You’re also moving the goalposts by shifting from 30 to 26.

    There is again the matter of energy. If we ignore nursing as contraception, there’s still the matter that probably most mothers aren’t interested in getting knocked up again while nursing a one year old and take steps to prevent that.

    And my question to you is what are these young men going to be doing with themselves if they’re single during their twenties?

    Okay, I misunderstood you. I’m not suggesting that men remaining unmarried in their 20s is socially optimal, merely that (re)normalization of age-stratified marriage can be useful for the time being. Ultimately we of course wish to transition back to a family-centric coupling structure in which people gain the economic, cultural, and emotional stability required to form families at a young age.

    As for what to do with unmarried young men, they should of course be looting, pillaging, and raping enemy tribes.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  84. Realist says:
    @neutral

    Obviously begs the question how many “Swedes” listed here are white, and how many are white women miscegenating with non whites?

    Exactly.

  85. Rosie says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    The shift from rail to motorized transport is also a major problem in cities. Used to be kids played outside in the streets in urban neighborhoods, which now is obviously dangerous.

    Yes, this is a problem. When you wind up having to take your kids to formal recreational activities, it gets expensive and time-consuming. It’s easy to economize on housing, food, and clothing with bunk beds, bulk groceries, and hand-me-downs, but the fee for recreational activities is one-child, sometimes with a small sibling discount.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  86. @Rosie

    I was thinking about the chauffeuring problem in modern parenting, and it seems that bicycles are at least a partial solution. You can get pretty far on a bicycle in a surprisingly short period of time. This is doubly true with a properly maintained road bicycle instead of the mountain, trick, and fat tire bikes that have been favored by casual riders since the ’90s. You can also carry a lot on a bike with panniers and a good old fashioned backpack.

    Of course, not all infrastructure supports bicycles, and there are activities that are too far to ride to in a reasonable period of time.

    It would also require the aforementioned busybodies not to call the police because they see eight year olds cycling unsupervised (the horror…). I could also see some ridiculous thing transpiring like CPS being contacted by the school when your kids arrive there on their own by bike in the winter. Obviously children will freeze to death if they’re not transported to school in a Chevrolet Suburban in January.

  87. Rosie says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I’m aware that nursing is not a fool-proof method of contraception.

    The thing is that nutrition is a factor. Modern women are much more likely to fall pregnant soon after childbirth because we are well-fed, so a later age-at-first birth is fine. Tne advantage of close-in-age siblings is that they can help entertain each other.

    . I’m not suggesting that men remaining unmarried in their 20s is socially optimal, merely that (re)normalization of age-stratified marriage can be useful for the time being.

    True. It’s important to distinguish short-term expediency from long-term ideals.

  88. bro3886 says:

    “It’s the smart fractions that overwhelmingly determine socio-economic success, and that smart fraction would appear to be quite vigorous.”

    No, it’s the general IQ that determines success and livability. Having a small percentage of geniuses won’t drag a dull mass up. You can see that all over South America. This is particularly true if the country is democratic and multi-racial. Voting for someone who looks like you trumps performance or intelligence. These lower intelligence groups might vote for someone who is relatively decent at first but when that doesn’t get them what they want (because it doesn’t change their biology) they’ll soon turn to racial demagogues rather then face the reality of their inabilities and dependency. You can see THIS in the modern U.S. where every public figure has to pretend that blacks are economically oppressed rather than admit the truth that blacks live far above their abilities for no other reason than that they live(d) in a majority European nation. The result is that most black leaders are ignorant, racist demagogues who value extortion rather than building.* Much of the smart class will eventually flee such a society.

    * I know, they’re not much worse than other politicians.

  89. Pericles says:
    @Rosie

    Bullshit. A woman who doesn’t start till she’s thirty still has plenty of time to have four, even six, children, and we don’t even need that many.

    While there may be some exceptions, such a late starter will in practice have two or less.

    At this point, obviously more white babies are needed. Three or more, at least until we reach the point where additional new births exceed immigration. Probably for longer than that.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  90. @Thulean Friend

    Everything really went downhill after 9/11. We didn’t get afghans but we got huge amounts of iraqis and especially somalians. I went back to my old school a few years ago when I was visiting and I could literally count the amount of white children on a single hand on the schoolyard. This is a school that has capacity for 500 kids. I was told that all the white kids now go to schools just outside the small town in a small village. It’s ironic because back then these small villages had to send all their kids to our town, which created some amount of resentment. We also looked down upon them as hicks (though we were all provincial types in reality, but there’s always a pecking order). But apparently they have created new private schools outside of town (fria skolvalet) to deal with this demand, giving rise to substantial segregation. SD is now big in the municipality so the social justice warrior types are a lot weaker, so despite some bleating, not much is being done about this.

    I’m sorry to hear what became of your hometown.

    I’m a little torn on the question of where to place newly-arrived immigrants. My experience is that immigrants from small towns are far better integrated — that is, more Swedish in their ways and tastes — than those who grew up in the burbs of Stockholm/Göteborg/Malmö, which is obviously a good thing, but cramming thousands of them together in a small town is a sure recipe for disaster.

    Another downside with placing them in the countryside, and it’s a huge one I think, is that turning the countryside multicultural deals our cultural heritage a heavy blow. A culture needs a traditional and backward-looking countryside to sustain itself since big cities are anti-tradition almost by definition. That’s how they thrive.

    Plus Stockholm gets most of the best international migrants to Sweden, which have been coming in large droves since the last center-“right” government radically liberalised work migration requirements in 2011. While there are still many rapefugees coming, a non-trivial share of decently skilled Asian migrants are also showing up, and they concentrate in Stockholm whereas rapefugees get pushed out into the hinterlands and on the margins. So elite Swedes get a kind of “soft multiculturalism” with mostly assimilated immigrants. It’s really the working/lower-middle class Swedes out in the sub-50K towns and villages who get the raw end of the stick, but who cares about them right? Just about a bunch of obsolete racists. Those are also the strongest areas for SD.

    Yes, there is a strong city/country divide here. Something like a reverse class war. And it’s hard to overstate how insulated inner-city Stockholmers are from what happens in the country. Many never even set foot outside the city limits, save for a short drive to Arlanda or their summer house by the sea.

  91. This is true. I’ve spent considerable time and Sweden, and the semi baby boom is clear. There’s a sense among the beautiful, but dreadfully unfeminine Swedish women that having a baby despite working is a hueman right. Selfishly abandoning the child to be raised in daycare, where he will be led around on field trips wearing a brightly colored safety vest, tethered to other children, is seen as not only normal, but the only legitimate way to raise children.

    I saw women pregnant while doing PhDs, or working high level management jobs. The idea is “It’s my right to have a baby whenever I want, and society had better remove all responsibilities and expectations from me which might get in the way”. It’s not an appealing situation to me, but it is IQ-eugenic.

    Sweden had such a massive human and physical capital endowment going into the 1990s immigration era that it was never in question if it would “be ok”. The entire population of Somalia could move to Sweden and it would “be ok” in the sense that the lights would stay on and the store shelves would be stocked. The immigrants in Sweden are too incompetent to do much more than randomly rape and throw hand grenades.

    If you’d put in place some sort of NRx fantasy national CEO dictatorship in Sweden in 1990, today you’d have a utopian, futurist society beyond anything the world has ever seen. That’s how good Sweden’s endowment was, how much potential she had. Instead you have this smug, self righteous, high income, low density country of lakes and forests, dragged down by the shitheels of the third world. It’s a weird mix, but Swedes are c*nts and deserve everything they’ve done to themselves. Don’t cry for Sweden.

  92. @Thorfinnsson

    People can’t think for themselves. That’s reality, and therefore it’s appropriate to feel sympathy.

    That’s an interesting spin. I can’t say I disagree.

  93. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB

    stopped African immigration to zero

    That’s not true. They can just fly in through the airport, and then do not leave, now. For example, a few years ago, the illegal immigrants were mainly men.

    However, when I was in Israel last year I saw large numbers of Sudanese girls in hijabs everywhere, and many,many African children (who are being born in Israel).

    So original illegal immigrants are now importing women and wives from Sudan and Eritrea, to Israel, and having very high birthrates inside Israel.

    By Supreme Court law, Israel will have to give these children citizenship eventually. So these are all future Israeli citizens. (Even if Israeli government and media, do not like to report this fact – it is legal fact).

    Now schools are closed down in Tel Aviv, to allow for these many African children.

    Moreover do you know Israel?

    My experience last year of exploring African areas in Tel Aviv – there are vast numbers of Africans, and Israelis have no control of those areas.

    Also they are not “nice Africans”, but generally the more dangerous and criminal elements of those countries.

    Israel has little state capacity in this area. People imagine because a country has good missile defense, then it will have state capacity in all other areas.

    But Israel has clearly very low, almost third world, state capacity in this area of immigration.

    Palestinian population is rapidly aging

    That’s not true. They have very large families. Most fertile population in Israel, are Bedouin, – although Bedouin don’t have “Palestinian” self identity.

    transform Israel into a globalist economic outpost stripped of its specific character, a sterile Singapore

    Singapore converted a tropical swamp, with no land, to a habitable place where people want to live.

    It’s one of the greatest achievements of second half of 20th century, to beginning of the 21st century.

    If any country, let alone Israel, could emulate Singapore, they would be one of the best countries in world. Moreover, if a country like Israel attracted the same immigrants as Singapore, who are often skilled secularist Chinese people, this would have a very positive effect on their demographics.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  94. @Swedish Family

    Integrating immigrants is undesirable since successful integration means miscegenation and thus dilution of the Swedish genotype and phenotype. In addition to it being desirable to preserve this from the point of view of Swedes themselves, the Swedish type has aesthetic and practical merit worth preserving.

    The best place for the immigrants is their countries of origin. Or at the bottom of the Gulf of Bothnia.

    • Agree: Adam, Rosie
  95. Dmitry says:
    @Andrey Kuznetsov

    This is expensive for ordinary Israeli people. They also have to pay for food, accommodation, (often) travel. Life is expensive Israel – they have also served in the army almost for free, unlike Arabs, who go to university while the Jews are in bootcamps, and who are then often subsidized for university tuition with endless special scholarships.

    In addition, immigrants have free university in Israel, while native Israelis have to pay. The situation is absurd and of course it causes them to dream of going to university in the EU.

  96. Dmitry says:
    @Thulean Friend

    The result is pictures like these:

    It’s also different units in Israeli military, have a different racial composition. And different units are fashionable, with different races there.

    So pictures are not representative of total population.

    For example, Magav – which is includes a lot of the most dangerous jobs defending Jerusalem – is full of Druze and even Bedouin men. However, their Druze and Bedouin women are not conscripted to the army.

    So women in Magav are all Jews- but obviously, very much Moroccan, Kurdish, Ethiopian, women.

    Men guarding in Jerusalem are often…

    But women “Magavnikot” are not any Druze and Bedouin, but includes a lot of Ethiopians


    They have units where all soldiers are autistic.

    They have courses of stupid soldiers, who restudy highschool.

    They have bootcamps where all soldiers are juvenile criminals, and women train all day shouting at them

    They even bootcamps where all soldiers are recent Moroccans (often via France) and Ethiopians who do not speak Hebrew.

    There are even Turkmen Muslims from Turkmenistan who are soldiers in the Israeli army (I’ve seen recently a report about this)

    On the other hand, cleverer youth are often recruited into special computer units.

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @AaronB
  97. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB

    emigres in NYC who dream of returning to Israel

    Because, of course, it is currently nice in Israel.

    Especially for people like your New York hi-tech business friends, who probably have 5-10 million dollars in savings, and can avoid the bad housing conditions of the working and lower middle class of Israel, and will live in a very modern building there, with underground parking and professional dogwalkers.

    If you walk around only in a rich area in Israel, where there are lots of good looking young couples, you might also think it was eugenic, and not dysgenic.

    But the highest birthrate areas in Israel, do not have such demographics.

    And I’m saying this and have not even visited places like Bedouin towns of South yet, which have the highest birthrates in Israel. (I will try to drive in the South next vacation there).

  98. @AaronB

    That European statehood is itself undergoing a crisis in the 21st century can be seen as a kind of karmic response on the part of the universe, although it seems self inflicted rather than Jews being responsible.

    It is good that you are, albeit slowly, beginning to reveal your ressentiment, but as I noted during the “proof of god” thread it is a dangerous line of thought that could well backfire on Jews.

    Using this bizarre logic, West Germans were punished for being turned into vassals of Jewish power and East Germans were rewarded (or at least not punished) for their heroic stance against Jewish Imperialism.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/sixth-proof/#comment-3211245

    https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/east-germanys-undeclared-war-against-israel/

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany

    • Replies: @AaronB
  99. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    Its not so much reveal as develop. Certain facts and lines of argument only become apparent when you adopt a new perspective.

    For instance, before I abandoned being white and sought refuge in my Jewish roots I did not put two and two together, that there is some kind of connection between the intense European effort to delegimize Israel in the 90s, and the self inflicted delegitimization of European states in the 10s. Yet it is so obvious once you see it.

    The mindset Europeans developed in their war against Israel bore fruit against themselves, after it failed to work against Israel and had nowhere to go.

    It was like a grenade that landed among your own unit.

    As for the proof of God thing, Jews invented the retribution if God logic, and we do in fact blame our calamities on our own sins.

  100. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    This Israel of yours sounds like a terrible place – I am surprised you wish to take any vacations there 🙂

    Yet you keep on going back.

    I am moving there soon, myself.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  101. @AaronB

    For instance, before I abandoned being white and sought refuge in my Jewish roots I did not put two and two together, that there is some kind of connection between the intense European effort to delegimize Israel in the 90s, and the self inflicted delegitimization of European states in the 10s. Yet it is so obvious once you see it.

    The mindset Europeans developed in their war against Israel bore fruit against themselves, after it failed to work against Israel and had nowhere to go.

    It was like a grenade that landed among your own unit.

    It is “obvious” because you, for whatever reason, want to see it. I have already given you the contrasting events in BRD and the DDR.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  102. @AaronB

    If racism is wrong, then nation-states themselves are wrong.

    Not exactly rocket science.

    That said Israel is a bit of a different case owing to its recent establishment via immigration (including illegal immigration), military aggression, colonial settlement, and territorial expansion.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  103. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    It is “obvious” because you, for whatever reason, want to see it. I

    Exactly. Now you’re starting to get it 🙂

  104. AaronB says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    If racism is wrong, then nation-states themselves are wrong

    This kind of thinking is too binary and stark – its modern science thinking and not suitable to what is a complex organic phenomenon.

    Ethnicity is relevant to nation state formation, but it is only one factor, and requires a certain amount of flexibility.

    But I would never deny that its relevant, and I support Europeans making it a significant factor in the formation of their own identities and states.

    Bardon Kaldian has recently been making original creative contributions in describing what might be a the elements of European and American nation states, based on history and respecting the element of organic flexibility and compromise.

    What emerges is stricter than the Jewish conception without being based on race in a simple fashion, but then Jews have a different role to play in history and we each must develop different concepts of our nation states – although there will naturally be significant overlap.

    That said Israel is a bit of a different case owing to its recent establishment via immigration (including illegal immigration), military aggression, colonial settlement, and territorial expansion.

    Obviously a tendentious characterization, but in more accurate and benign language, these phenomena can be good or bad depending on context.

    For instance, Europeans settling in the vast empty expanses of undeveloped Africa hardly strikes me as any great crime.

    And military aggression can be defensive.

    And so forth.

  105. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    These pictures seem to come from a Magav Instagram site –

    http://www.instapuma.com/magav_hebron

    It’s impossible to tell if those soldiers are Druze or Israeli Jews. They are obviously not Ashkenazi though.

    The Druze until recently had their own unit, until they asked to be disbanded and assimilated throughout the Army – and even before, they had the option to serve anywhere, and often ended up in the best units.

    The Bedouin also have their own tracker unit, where their excellent tracking skills are used to locate terrorist infiltrators who penetrate past the borders.

    There is even a unit of entirely Israeli Arab Muslim volunteers who guard settlements and raid Palestinian towns.

    As for Magav, it has always had the reputation of attracting lower class less educated elements in Israeli society, although recently I’m seeing more blond Russians, and generally engages in rough, highly physical police work, of a paramilitary nature, and is not really a full military unit – it isn’t trained in advanced infantry skills, for instance. The instagram account shows blonds as well.

    As for the pic of Netanyahu and his wife that keeps on popping up, a Google image search shows that it was taken in a Golani infantry base in northern Israel – Golani is a conventional infantry brigade, albeit a respected one, that has a reputation for attracting mostly Sephardic soldiers who are a bit wild and unruly, although it has plenty if Ashkenazim and Russians.

  106. @Thorfinnsson

    As expected, lots of rambling nonsense but not a single source was posted that day. On the other hand, the aource I posted shows that Swedish women are less likey to get with immigrants than Swedish men are. Less than 0.1% of Nordic women will ever travel to Tanzania, and there were no “foreign lovers” in postwar Scandinavia. Northern European are the most popular in Europe.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  107. @Samuel Coulton

    Your source described relationships and thus is not in contradiction to what I stated. Swedes DO NOT settle with foreigners as a general rule. Or did not–see the comments of Thulean Friend and Swedish Family, and of course your own source describes the unfortunate pattern of certain Swedish men to import Thai wives. If they are to be believed, and they’re long established credible commenters here, then in the past decade the breeding of mud monster half-castes never meant to be has begun.

    And I didn’t even address the patterns of Swedish men.

    It should also be noted that unsurprisingly sources concerning the fornication habits of Swedes, or any other nationality, abroad are lacking.

    Substantial tourism to the Mediterranean countries began in the 1960s. My father had an unpleasant encounter with the Guardia Civil involving a revolver in the late 1960s, when Spain was still governed by Franco.

    Yugoslavian guest workers started arriving in Sweden in the 1970s, though there was inward labor migration from Italy and Greece already in the 1950s (along with the usual Finns and many refugees from the Baltic countries).

    • Replies: @Samuel Coulton
  108. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB

    moving there soon,

    I love Israel – I am attracted to strange, terrible and interesting places. Where do you plan to invest in property, if it’s not too personal?

    Here is the city where I stayed for vacation last year in Israel (with my friends who live there) . These are not my pictures, just from internet.

    Its local youth (only slightly self-ironically – youth like this there are waiting outside shops asking you buy them alcohol)

    The funny thing is, this property is extremely valuable, because if developers will build a skyscraper where the old apartment slum building is (and they will within maybe 20 years), then according to Israeli law, they have to give you a free apartment in new skyscraper they will build there.

    Sadly, many immigrants just rent there (they cannot afford to buy apartments, for the reason above).

    And how small and shabby inside, the apartments are all there. At 3:45 in video – the courtyard lol

    • Replies: @AaronB
  109. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Bullshit. A woman who doesn’t start till she’s thirty still has plenty of time to have four, even six, children, and we don’t even need that many. The only reason we needed that many in the past was because of infant mortality. This is a Mozart family portrait:

    4 kids today with low infant mortality and consequently a regime of relaxed selection are not equivalent to those 4 kids in the past.

    High infant mortality in the past meant that there was pretty strong selection against unhealthy babies and high mutational load. Today, there’s no such selection and most babies that are born survive. Older mothers produce babies with greater mutational load, and there’s relaxed selection against mutational load today because of low infant mortality.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @Rosie
  110. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Raising children is too much work in many respects, and this needs to be addressed at a societal level.

    That’s true, but a lot of “raising children” today is just costly, wasteful signaling. All these expensive interventions aren’t going to turn your child into a pro athlete or genius.

    In many ways, the marginal cost of more kids goes down because older siblings are a source of hand-me-downs, guidance, care, tutoring, babysitting, etc. Moreover, there are intangibles that only siblings can provide. Older siblings who already went through your high school, college, early professional life, etc., can provide much better social, academic, and career guidance and advice than a parent can.

    I suspect a lot of the costly parental “investment” today serves as a rationalization to avoid having more children for other reasons.

  111. Passer by says:

    Wittgenstein does not show fertility data, but assumptions and scenarios about the future (SSPs).

    Nordic women do not have eugenic fertility patterns currently. Men do appear to have, but this also questionable.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325856552_Education_Gender_and_Cohort_Fertility_in_the_Nordic_Countries

    Part of this is caused by the large increase in the college educated population through the years, i’m pretty sure of that.

    If the number of the highly educated has increased, this will change their overall TFR. Example:

    Past
    non college ed TFR 2,1 90 % of population
    college ed TFR 1,8 10 % of population

    Present

    10 % (TFR 1,8) + 30 % (TFR 2,1)

    non college ed TFR 2,1 60 % of population
    college ed TFR 2,02 40 % of population

  112. @Swedish Family

    My experience is that immigrants from small towns are far better integrated — that is, more Swedish in their ways and tastes — than those who grew up in the burbs of Stockholm/Göteborg/Malmö…

    I spent my formative late childhood & teenage years as an immigrant in a relatively insular, prole northern English town.

    I will admit that I disliked and resented the place, and its denizens returned the favor. I would wager that I’d have fit in a lot better in much more cosmopolitan London, or even a “millionik” such as Manchester… perhaps even assimilated into British society… precisely because there is less to “assimilate to” in those places.

    I honestly feel myself to be more American than British (though I am of course neither), despite having spend only a decade in the latter.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
  113. Passer by says:

    Part of the supposed big dysgenic difference between the developing world and the developed world is caused by the difference in the number of college educated people – 10 – 15 % – small percentage of the population in the developing world vs 30 -50 %- large percentage of the population in the developed world.

  114. @Anonymous

    Older mothers produce babies with greater mutational load…

    AFAIK that’s mainly just true for men, and negligible for women.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  115. Passer by says:
    @Sam Coulton

    Only three out of ten immigrant women and nearly two out of ten immigrant men were in a relationship with a Swede

    There are more male migrants than female migrants in Sweden, it created a gender disbalance in the country.

    native ethnic Swedish fertility is higher than every other country….

    Native fertility defined as that of swedish born mothers was 1,66 in 2018, i think. Nothing outside of the norm of western countries.

  116. @Thorfinnsson

    If anything you said was even remotely true, we would not see the patterns we see in the Swedish data. But of course what you say is not true, and is based on made-up and seemingly irrelevant anecdotes such as “muh pop song from 1960”, “muh grandpa”, and irrelevant factoids such as “Yogoslavian workers arrived in the 60s”.

    • Disagree: Thorfinnsson
  117. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Older mothers tend to have children with older men.

    Also, there’s such a premium placed on younger women in terms of attractiveness relative to older women, especially compared to men, that there’s likely significant health and quality differences in offspring. A very plain young woman can be much more attractive to men simply by virtue of her youth than an older woman who was formerly a gorgeous model in her youth. And the age difference doesn’t even have to be great. It can just be 10 years or so. A woman in her early 20s can have youthful physical attributes that are irresistible to men and that are greatly diminished or lost among women who hit 30, attributes that override other considerations for attractiveness. Whereas that’s generally not the case for men.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  118. @Thulean Friend

    And they were all hyperassimilated

    Which goes to show you that assimilation is not just a pipe dream but a reality, but only in small numbers.

  119. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    I love Israel – I am attracted to strange, terrible and interesting places. Where do you plan to invest in property, if it’s not too personal?

    Lol, so am I. Well said.

    I would say, however, that I’m an attracted to places with depth and character, that are the opposite of a clean and beautiful American suburb, and whose deficiencies can only be considered serious from the point of view economic efficiency, but not from the pov of life.

    You realize, of course that if Israel become your Singapore dream, you will never visit again 🙂

    I have not yet decided where I am moving to in Israel. I am seriously considering not moving to any of the big cities, but settling in a small town in the green north or the Golan, or maybe the West Bank.

    Or maybe a farm in the Negev like Ariel Sharon lol.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @Dmitry
  120. Anounder says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    At least we also spread homophobia at the same time

    Plenty of societies regulated or opposed faggotry. Even the Greeks did it.

    Didn’t exist until Jews took over American culture

    And who let the Jews in?

    Despite hundreds of years of contact, the average white American is at most in the very low single digits of black/native ancestry and the average black at about 20%. I don’t think there is anywhere with similar levels of racial interaction over hundreds of years which remains equally separate.

    That’s not from lack of trying. That’s from dumping the bastards in with the Negroes. Euro ancestry in the American Negro is paternal largely.

  121. Wow.. Latin America is doubly screwed.
    In addition to the demographic trends here, alot of the higher education Latin Americans seem to be immigrating en masse to Miami, Spain, or Portugal.

    I guess I should go visit Argentina now while it still has nice museums before it devolves into a Chavezian 3rd world nightmare.

  122. Also Israel seems to be doing alright compared to other 1st world countries.

    This is surprising to me as I thought the Hasidic’s and related groups were generally economically less productive.

    But maybe the Torah studying/ limiting work actually continues to have a eugenic effect where the brightest kids become the Rabbis and end up able to attract alot of girls.

  123. Anon[384] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    That the European leadership ever wanted to delegitimize Israel at the top government level is propaganda meant to seem consistent with their primary will to wreck Europe (subtext: under Jewish influence and authority).

    Not once has formal and substantial Jewish Power, stretching from Europe all the way back to Israel, done anything but stand up for the forces meant to wreck Europe and its peoples.

    Remember that you must include Britain in your false generalization of the European intent to “war” against Israel, which is the nation that founded modern Israel.

    If Europe did actually want to make fatal trouble for Israel, then it would. Europe never had “no where to go”. You vastly underestimate Western Power vs Israeli power, especially in the beginning stages and before Israel illegally gained nukes. You have sold yourself on your own Jewish propaganda. That happens quite often. You probably also believe that a rag tag team of Jewish terrorists were able to wrestle Israel away from Britain (notice the romance aspect), that US intelligence actually believed that Iraq had WMDs, that the Gulf of Tonkin was a legitimate event, and that USA racial tensions aren’t being purposefully amped up to a fatal degree by the press and by design.

    Nothing done by the Western leaders is unintended, unscripted, or naturally flowing politics. Least of all mass immigration and Israel’s survival. Kid and tell yourself as many Jewish victory and hero stories as you wish. I notice that Jews are vulnerable to romantic stories about themselves (to say the least). Just don’t expect adults to take your naive perspective seriously.

    What I also know is that Jewish Power benefits from victim and persecution narratives, whether true or invented.

    This is especially pertinent as the final conflict ramps up, as it is in Jewish interest for the Rabbis to be able to find doctrinal excuses for condemning the West toward its final Jewish scripted destruction: those excuses namely being the West’s rising antipathy toward Jews (due to visible and very active Jewish subversion – similar to what occurred to bait the Germans into WWII) as well as the general immorality that the Jews play a central role in promoting.

    The entire story is that after WWII the West was well enough owned by Jewish Power, and it has been destroying the West ever since. The modern West, in its dissolving and imploding state, is a reflection of the Jewish dream for it on the Jewish path toward the post genocidal Messianic Age for which the destruction of all Western nations is necessary.

  124. Rosie says:
    @Pericles

    While there may be some exceptions, such a late starter will in practice have two or less.

    If she only has two children, it’s unlikely to be because she started late. Rather, it’s probably going to be because she (and/or her husband) only wants two children. When you see very widely-spaced siblings, there is usually a reason for that. Often, there is an unplanned pregnancy early in the mother’s life, and it took her some years to get herself together financially to have another child. Sometimes, there is a divorce and remarriage, or some other less-than-ideal situation.

    According to this article, the average spacing between siblings is 30 months. I don’t know where they got that figure, but it rings true from my observations.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/learnvest/2012/11/08/how-far-apart-should-you-space-your-kids/#3a26b99f1b76

    Personally, I do not recommend waiting until thirty. I think mid-twenties is much better. That way, you’re still young enough to go double digits if that’s what you decide you want. On the other hand, you can quit and do something else after two of you’d rather. Younger motherhood actually makes sense from the standpoint of women’s autonomy (not that that’s the most important thing), because it’s hard to know how many you want until you start having them.

    But realistically, some couples may need the extra time to get prepared. If that is the case, they can still have a very good size family if that is what they want. Moreover, if you start too early, you may not enjoy motherhood as much as you otherwise would have, in which case you might wind up having fewer children than you might have if you had waited. I suspect that is the gist of this article, though it’s behind a paywall.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/07/us/us-birthrate-hispanics-latinos.html

    • Replies: @notanon
  125. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Also, there’s such a premium placed on younger women in terms of attractiveness relative to older women, especially compared to men, that there’s likely significant health and quality differences in offspring.

    No evidence? No problem. Just make stuff up.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  126. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    4 kids today with low infant mortality and consequently a regime of relaxed selection are not equivalent to those 4 kids in the past.

    So what? There’s nothing that can be done about that.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  127. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    You’re making 2 claims, one explicit and one implicit.

    The explicit claim is that a woman today can with the same likelihood have the same number of children as a woman in the past did, despite starting much later in life.

    The implicit claim is that children born today, to much older parents in a regime of low infant mortality and relaxed selection, are identical to children born in the past.

    Both of these claims are false.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  128. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    It’s a hypothesis, based on an incontrovertible fact.

    Just like the hypothesis that there must be some advantage to male height, based on the incontrovertible fact that women tend to be attracted to taller men.

    It would be good to research this subject further and try to obtain evidence for it, but it’s a very sensitive subject and not politically correct in an age where the mainstream culture is anti-natalist and promotes childlessness, delayed marriage and childbearing.

  129. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    This chart of Leonardo DiCaprio’s dating history recently went viral and caused some controversy:

  130. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    The explicit claim is that a woman today can with the same likelihood have the same number of children as a woman in the past did, despite starting much later in life.

    Yes, she can have the same number of surviving children.

    The implicit claim is that children born today, to much older parents in a regime of low infant mortality and relaxed selection, are identical to children born in the past.

    Every single thing you say always boils down to this: less freedom for women. Is there not even one single scenario in which the right thing would be to give women more freedom? It almost seems like you have some sort of axe to grind.

    We don’t need to have eight kids to keep the population stable anymore. You just can’t stand it that women don’t have to spend their entire lives pregnant, can you?

  131. Rosie says:

    It’s a hypothesis, based on an incontrovertible fact.

    No, it’s just bullshit. Men’s attraction to younger women can easily be explained by their greater number of fertile tears years remaining.

    If anything, women would be expected to face tremendous evolutionary pressure to continue producing healthy offspring as long as possible.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  132. @Anatoly Karlin

    I would wager that I’d have fit in a lot better in much more cosmopolitan London, or even a “millionik” such as Manchester… perhaps even assimilated into British society… precisely because there is less to “assimilate to” in those places.

    This is true, but it also goes both ways. Northern England has a lot of insular and backward Pakistanis (the grooming gang scandals took place there for a reason). Pakistanis in London are far more educated, but also more liberal. Even if the community as a whole is quite regressive, there are stark contrasts between the two. This pattern holds for most groups, natives and immigrants alike.

    Importantly, some immigrants actively choose to go to these cosmopolitan cities precisely because the corrosive acid of their social milieu act as a restraint on more regressive (in their view) cultural practices and norms from their own community, as links are generally much weaker in larger cities where there are less avenues for social control. This is particularly true for young girls.

    Stockholm gets the cream of the international work migrants coming to Sweden, but we also get a large share of the best educated/smartest of the 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants from smaller provinces. Some of this is simply economics, but some of it is also an active social choice by 2nd gen immigrants, particularly young educated girls.

  133. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    You’re conceding my point here. Men are attracted to younger women because younger women are more likely to produce more surviving offspring into adulthood, which implies more births and greater viability, healthy, survivability of offspring.

    Women don’t produce offspring for as long as possible, and live quite long during their post-menopause years, which suggests there is a cost or disadvantage to continually producing offspring.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  134. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Yes, she can have the same number of surviving children.

    In general, all else equal, a population of women that starts having children sooner will be able to have more kids than a population of women who start later. I’m not talking about individual cases here and there, but in general.

    We don’t need to have eight kids to keep the population stable anymore. You just can’t stand it that women don’t have to spend their entire lives pregnant, can you?

    I never said women should be less free. I’m simply pointing out that age of marriage and motherhood impacts fertility rates.

    By all means promote women’s freedom to choose their own lifestyles and have fewer kids, but do so without spreading falsehoods about women’s marriage prospects and fertility. This is exactly what the mainstream culture and media does by promoting the lite that women can “have it all”. The media promotes the myth that women can wait until their 30s and beyond to get married and have kids with no problems, and a lot of young women today believe this myth.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  135. @Rosie

    Why do women deserve freedom though? Also, freedom from what exactly as well?

    Women having freedom, “liberation” and “empowerment” has literally proven to be nothing but a complete disaster wherever it’s implemented. The result of female empowerment in the west today is women doing millions of abortions, degenerate casual sex, political subversion, social subversion, replacing their own men by opening themselves to foreigners, plus many more horrible things that i couldn’t think of from the top of my head.

    Some may think i’m over-exaggerating, but honestly, who needs Jews and other hardcore subversionists when you have old dyke white women like our glorious supreme Mama Angela Merkel, Theresa May, and millions of other disgusting fat women, old hags, dykes, feminists and so on running around uncontrollably while having positions of authority. The amount of damage they’re doing is arguably just as bad, if not in some cases even worse than Jews or Third World Invaders.

    Women voting, suffrage, and any other form of women’s rights have been clearly proven by history and time to be a horrible mistake. Women’s freedom is at best completely useless for any civilization, nation and society, and at worst, outright harmful and destructive.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Rosie
    , @silviosilver
  136. @Rosie

    Is there not even one single scenario in which the right thing would be to give women more freedom?

    Not him, but no. There is no such scenario in this universe.

    Moreover, there is no scenario where the right thing is to give men more freedom, but I doubt you give even a slightest rat’s ass about that.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  137. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    I never said women should be less free. I’m simply pointing out that age of marriage and motherhood impacts fertility rates.

    Oh yes, I’m sure you’re just the dispassionate academic.

  138. Rosie says:
    @anonymous coward

    Moreover, there is no scenario where the right thing is to give men more freedom, but I doubt you give even a slightest rat’s ass about that.

    What sorts of freedoms do you want that you don’t already have? Not a rhetorical question.

  139. Rosie says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Why do women deserve freedom though?

    Because freedom is good for humans and women are human.

    Some may think i’m over-exaggerating, but honestly, who needs Jews and other hardcore subversionists when you have old dyke white women like our glorious supreme Mama Angela Merkel, Theresa May, and millions of other disgusting fat women, old hags, dykes, feminists and so on running around uncontrollably while having positions of authority. The amount of damage they’re doing is arguably just as bad, if not in some cases even worse than Jews or Third World Invaders.

    I utterly reject your claim that women’s emancipation is the cause of our ills. The borders are open because of Jewish subversion and male greed (cheap labor). Male leaders have been every bit as treacherous as Merkel. She is a puppet like all the others. Replace her with a man and see what you get. (Spoiler: more of the same.)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

    Women voting, suffrage, and any other form of women’s rights have been clearly proven by history and time to be a horrible mistake.

    Because if only more White women would have voted for Mittens Romney, he totally would have done something about the border. White Male loyalty to GOPe has been a disaster.

  140. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    You’re conceding my point here.

    I certainly am not.

    Men are attracted to younger women because younger women are more likely to produce more surviving offspring into adulthood, which implies more births and greater viability, healthy, survivability of offspring.

    Are you retarded or something? During to lower infant mortality, women do not need to have eight babies apiece. WTF do you find so incomprehensible about this simple fact?

    Women don’t produce offspring for as long as possible, and live quite long during their post-menopause years, which suggests there is a cost or disadvantage to continually producing offspring.

    Yes, there is a disadvantage to have children after a certain age, and that is totally irrelevant to the question at hand, which is the ideal age at first birth in an advanced society with ample nutrition and low infant mortality.

    (Commenters: Should I ignore this troll?)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  141. Rosie says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Also, freedom from what exactly as well?

    I realized I forgot to address this:

    Forced prostitution.

  142. @Rosie

    Oh of course, women as a group are totally not eager voters who are inclined towards leftism and subversion at all. All the statistics where women are much more inclined to support civilization destruction, and go against the interests of the collective which they are a part of with men, aren’t true. Of course not, how could they be, women are too innocent, weak, and helpless to ever be capable of doing anything to ruin their own civilization and nation …

    Women totally aren’t eager or interested to replace their own men because they consider them to be weak and pathetic …

    https://www.eutimes.net/2016/09/female-volunteers-at-calais-jungle-having-sex-with-multiple-refugees-a-day/

    As for your deflection of blame, which is of course a typical female trait, onto Jews and male greed (cheap labor), women’s suffrage and the right to vote is what lead to Jews being able to successfully persuade women with garbage like feminism, consumerism, LGBTQ, human rights interventionism, and literally everything else that’s absolutely civilization killing.

    After all, women are never responsible or at fault for anything in this world of course. It’s actually shocking how similar the behavior of women and Jews as collective groups really is. The constant whining, the subversion, trickery, deceit, selfishness, shallowness, shortsightedness, and need i go on?

    Of course, your last line of defense is Cuckservatism. All of the GOP besides maybe Trump, although he’s done a lot to join their ranks, are Cuckservatives that are basically conservative only in theory but in reality completely give in to their opponents in order to virtue signal about how they’re so moral and humane for subscribing to liberal doctrines. Considering Trump hasn’t “done something about the border”, what makes you think if Mitt Romney won in 2008, that he would’ve done so?

    Why should white males be loyal to the GOP and cuckservatives? They are arguably even worse than all of their other enemies because they pretend to be on the side of white men, but are completely useless and surrender on anything remotely important. Of course they’re not going to vote GOP. The only reason they voted for Trump was because he promised to be different.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @AP
  143. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosie

    Because freedom is good for humans

    Is it? I think that’s a completely unproven assumption.

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @EldnahYm
  144. Rosie says:
    @dfordoom

    Is it? I think that’s a completely unproven assumption.

    It’s not an assumption; it’s a statement of value. If you don’t value freedom, then I have no common ground to have any sort of discussion with you about anything.

  145. neutral says:
    @AaronB

    You were never white to start with, so there was never anything to abandon. Of course the flight from white is now very useful to lots of other non white such as Arabs, but as usual the jew pretends to be a victim to something they themselves wanted.

  146. Rosie says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Oh of course, women as a group are totally not eager voters who are inclined towards leftism and subversion at all.

    We value the welfare state. If you consider that “subversion” then so be it.

    Women totally aren’t eager or interested to replace their own men because they consider them to be weak and pathetic …

    You’re paranoid.

    women’s suffrage and the right to vote is what lead to Jews being able to successfully persuade women with garbage like feminism, consumerism, LGBTQ, human rights interventionism, and literally everything else that’s absolutely civilization killing.

    What an incoherent load of nonsense. Having the right to vote didn’t allow Jews to persuade us of anything. What did allow them to do so was White men handing over the commanding heights of the culture (media, academy, courts) over to the Jews.

    The things you mention have nothing to do with women’s suffrage. Women have consistently been more opposed to military adventurism than men.

    LGBTQ has only been slightly more popular among women than men, who liked the idea of permissive sexual mores.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/

    https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/playboy-founder-hugh-hefner-early-proponent-lgbtq-rights-n805591
    https://www.newsweek.com/hugh-hefner-playboy-gay-rights-advocate-673046
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/9/28/16379500/hugh-hefner-lgbtq-rights&ved=2ahUKEwi50a2YtMjjAhVBTt8KHVCHDh0QFjADegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw0xlaij-djIPvptXZ6971fn&cshid=1563794510287

    As for your deflection of blame, which is of course a typical female trait, onto Jews and male greed (cheap labor),

    When some woman-hating jerk blames women for things we have no control over, we can agree (in which case the allegations are true) or we can defend ourselves (which will be construed as further evidence of our incorrigible wickedness). It looks like you’ve got all of your bases covered.

    Cheap labor:

    https://www.businessinsider.com/koch-network-to-support-dreamers-legal-status-2019-1
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/17/kochs-dreamers-talks-529687
    https://time.com/5491587/koch-brothers-network-immigration-reform/

    You find me one White billionaire (just one out of several hundred) to fund conservative women’s activism and I’ll get some heels on the ground. Until then, STFU.

    Why should white males be loyal to the GOP and cuckservatives? They are arguably even worse than all of their other enemies because they pretend to be on the side of white men, but are completely useless and surrender on anything remotely important.

    Indeed. And whose fault is that?

  147. AP says:
    @Cicerone

    What index would you calculate for Ukraine?

  148. AP says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Considering Trump hasn’t “done something about the border”, what makes you think if Mitt Romney won in 2008, that he would’ve done so?

    Mitt was going to make conditions such that they would “self-deport.”

    Because he is a much more competent executive, although his policies and rhetoric would probably have been milder than Trump’s, he would have been more effective and thus there would have been fewer migrants (IIRC even the Obama administration deported more has Trump’s) .

    • Replies: @Rosie
  149. Rosie says:
    @AP

    Mitt was going to make conditions such that they would “self-deport.”

    Lol my achin’ sides!

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @AP
  150. AP says:
    @Rosie

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2012/11/26/trump-mitt-romneys-maniacal-self-deportation-policy-cost-him-minorities/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.5effe077ba98

    Trump: Mitt Romney’s ‘maniacal’ self-deportation policy cost him minorities

    Romney “had a crazy policy of self deportation which was maniacal,” Trump told NewsMax.com. “It sounded as bad as it was, and he lost all of the Latino vote … He lost the Asian vote. He lost everybody who is inspired to come into this country.”

    Romney said during the Republican primary that illegal immigrants should “self-deport,” meaning that if the government made it impossible for them to find jobs or obtain driver’s licenses, they would leave the country of their own accord.

  151. Rosie says:

    Romney said during the Republican primary that illegal immigrants should “self-deport,”

    And of course we know Republicans always keep their promises.

    🤣

    • Replies: @AP
  152. @Mitleser

    The issue with AaronB’s comment:

    – admixture with lower IQ groups leads to a regression to the lower mean in the children (to be more precise, to the average of the two groups), so it still means a lowering IQ for the smart fraction; he failed to take this into account

    – suddenly he managed to understand HBD (except for the point above), something which before he pretended not to understand, kept misrepresenting, argued against using straw man arguments, etc.

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @AaronB
  153. notanon says:
    @yakushimaru

    why is it almost axiomatically good?

    i don’t think it is any more.

    i’d say it’s usually true but when technology gets past a certain point then quality > quantity becomes more important.

    (for a fixed living space)

    personally i think the populations of industrialized nations grew too high due to the labor needs of early industrial society and ideally would shrink to maybe 2/3 their current population while at the same time improving health and intelligence.

    once they’re at a new optimal level then replacement would become an important marker again.

    #

    What is the optimal population size of the islands of Japan, under current tech level?

    my guess of 2/3 current size is just a guess.

    i think what would happen (if immigration is restricted) is the population would shrink to the point where it hit replacement – which would be a function of people feeling less crowded and the natural increase in the proportion of pro-natal genes over time as the women who most wanted kids had the most (as long as that desire was supported and made possible).

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  154. notanon says:

    a lot of welfare systems only target the poorest which leads to only the poor and the rich being able to afford as many children as they’d like.

    assuming that for women in the 115+ range it’s mostly not primarily about money then maybe a system that favors women in the 100-115 range would be closer to optimal.

  155. notanon says:

    i think much lower population density and expansion into space would be a lot better than the ant’s nest we are going to get under current extrapolation.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  156. notanon says:
    @yakushimaru

    Israel is different as they have the opportunity (and intention) to increase their total living space.

  157. @Thorfinnsson

    Northern European men can be for many young Western women “boring”, so certain adventurous women are interested in having a lover from a more passionate, R-selected culture. This is nothing new and not even entirely the product of globohomo propaganda. In the postwar period there was a fad for Italian lovers among German and Nordic women.

    There was a similar pattern with middle-aged Nordics and Germans going to Greece to pick up young men (who were know as ‘spear fisherman’). A modern equivalant is the middle-aged woman from Northern Europe who go to refugee route stopping points (in Northern Greece and the islands) in order to ‘help’ refugees – in other words, to fuck young men. Many of the men who go to ‘help’ are pedophiles who are after boys and young men.

    As is often the case with people who are ostensibly ‘doing good’, such degeneracy is overlooked. The charity is a useful mask. It wouldn’t surprise me if this was the main impetus behind the left’s obsession with refugees. It reminds me of Lawrence of Arabia – whose passionate advocacy of the Arab cause originated in a boy who he liked to bugger. (the other driver of the refugee influx is the corrupt local Greek businessman who recieve big EU funds to feed refugees, and then feed them close to dogfood while pocketing the difference)

  158. @Rosie

    I never said that the welfare state was “subversion”. Truthfully though, as far as punishing men through no-fault divorce, payments to single mothers, and encouraging women’s education, the welfare state really is an extremely subversive, harmful, and destructive influence on any given society.

    As for white women on average sexually preferring their own men, that has historically been true since it’s only natural for women to prefer their own men. Of course, as captured goods, women rarely effectively resist being the spoils of war for a victorious tribe that conquers another. It’s simply not in their nature to do so. Whites/Europeans are currently in a situation where they are a tribe being conquered by other tribes, if you haven’t noticed. Regardless, in-group preferences can be persuaded to change through propaganda promoting interracial sex, marriage and so on. The propaganda pushing interracial sex is thick and aggressive, plus we are far from seeing the end of it. Perceptions can change over time and the lengths to which something that is biologically or genetically natural can be altered, are shockingly large. White women inter-racially cuckolding their men (having sex with black and brown men) is absolutely real, and happens to a much larger degree than most people think. There is a good reason why phrases like “coal burner” and “mud shark” exist.

    With the exception of Anglo nations, France and Switzerland, before WW1, most of Europe or the “white world” was not democratic in general (in the modern sense, at minimum). It was only after 1945 that democracy, and with it, women’s suffrage became firmly established throughout the world. It’s very clear that a lot of the civilization killing trends of today had their seeds planted since 1945. Democracy is in general useless because voting doesn’t change much of anything in the overwhelming majority of situations. The “success” of Democracy and women’s suffrage in general is also very much a strongly ethnic Anglo thing as well. By now, they’ve persuaded some other West Europeans to value it over the centuries, but still, nobody besides Anglos, other West Europeans and Jews (it has different meanings to each group, of course) even really cares about Democracy.

    Who do you think encourages women’s suffrage and feminism you silly Shiksa?

    The part about women being opposed to war should be strongly tested before and after they have been exposed to some kind of hoax massacre, war crime or genocide propaganda (For example, “gassed” Syrian babies, Iraqi soldiers “raping Kuwaiti stewardesses”, Srebrenica “genocide”, and so on). Otherwise, you are correct, it is obvious that women have historically, on average, been strongly opposed to war.

    Still, women support LGBTQ on average more than men do. That is something even you admit. Of course, you conveniently glossed over how women have mass murdered millions of babies across several decades through their unholy abortions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_statistics_in_the_United_States

    Women in the United States have managed to mass murder almost 46 million babies from 1970-2015. It’s reasonable to assume most of those abortions were done by white women since Anglos/whites were the majority population of the USA until now or the near future (not clear whether peoples’ of European descent are currently a majority in the USA or not).

    FIGURE 1: The number of abortions per 1000 women aged 15-49 and per 100 live births (Russia, 1959-2014)

    KEY: Per 100 Births (purple); Per 1,000 Women (red) | Source: Rosstat data

    Of course, this proves that women regardless of whether they’re in the USA or Russia, are still the same. More accurately, it applies for women of any ethnicity or race across literally the whole planet. Unfortunately, most people won’t believe it unless abortion becomes completely legal and accessible worldwide where they will have firsthand evidence of it. Whenever women are empowered with the “freedom” of abortion, they’ll always be eager and certain to mass murder millions of babies.

    Women are genocidal scum that mass murder millions of babies …

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @dfordoom
  159. notanon says:
    @AaronB

    The mindset Europeans developed in their war against Israel bore fruit against themselves, after it failed to work against Israel and had nowhere to go.

    other way round.

    the anti-nationalist and anti-colonialist mindset that infected Europe was applied equally to Israel.

  160. notanon says:
    @Thulean Friend

    I have a hard time feeling sympathy. These people voted for what they got, by and large.

    most people are conformists for social cohesion reasons so the blame (or credit) for what happens to a country goes to the people who decide what the majority conform to – and post-war the biggest factor in that has been US media and academia.

    America’s hostile elite has poisoned the whole world in proportion to how anglophone the population is.

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @Rosie
  161. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    But realistically, some couples may need the extra time to get prepared.

    the welfare system should be arranged around this imo – helping the healthiest couples have kids.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  162. Rosie says:
    @notanon

    most people are conformists for social cohesion reasons so the blame (or credit) for what happens to a country goes to the people who decide what the majority conform to – and post-war the biggest factor in that has been US media and academia.

    That is very fair. Of course, TheTotallyAnonymous thinks the Jew defense is good for the good for the gender but not for the goose.

  163. Rosie says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Whites/Europeans are currently in a situation where they are a tribe being conquered by other tribes, if you haven’t noticed.

    Yes, I had noticed, and sadly, stupid White men like you are actively going out of your way to ensure that nothing can be done about that fact by alienating your only allies.

    Whenever women are empowered with the “freedom” of abortion, they’ll always be eager and certain to mass murder millions of babies.

    Abortion chiefly empowered men…to walk away from their responsibilities.

    https://www.brookings.edu/research/an-analysis-of-out-of-wedlock-births-in-the-united-states/

    Women are genocidal scum that mass murder millions of babies …

    What does that say about men?

    https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/395816-dem-pollster-women-are-less-likely-to-be-pro-choice

    Mr. Karlin, are there any limits?

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  164. AaronB says:
    @reiner Tor

    I thought I had shown that regression to the mean is another HBD fantasy, at least as understood by HBDers, and a rare and unusual event….

    That the concept would imply constant turnover in the smart fraction, the non existence of a stable smart fraction, and the non existence of talented families who consistently produce offspring above the mean..

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @Swedish Family
  165. Rosie says:
    @notanon

    the welfare system should be arranged around this imo – helping the healthiest couples have kids

    I certainly don’t disagree, but you’re always going to need a safety net. You can look to countries that don’t have one to this very day, and it’s not a pretty picture. Human trafficking, even child sex trafficking becomes a commonplace, as it was in Victorian England.

    • Replies: @notanon
  166. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    you’re always going to need a safety net

    i think a lot of problems can be designed out.

    child sex trafficking becomes a commonplace

    i think child sex trafficking is mostly* a function of excess males creating a demand for prostitution that greatly exceeds available supply (as now due to mass immigration or Victorian England when men moved into the cities en masse for factory work).

    *the actively pedophile thing is separate imo but even then i wonder if there’s a hormonal or genetic component to it which could be looked at if the blank slate ideology gets demolished.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  167. notanon says:
    @AaronB

    That the concept would imply..

    it hasn’t been proved yet but i believe regression to the mean will end up being male variance anchored by female variance cos that’s such a neat fail-safe system.

    if so it wouldn’t imply any of the things you mention.

  168. Rosie says:
    @notanon

    i think child sex trafficking is mostly* a function of excess males creating a demand for prostitution that greatly exceeds available supply (as now due to mass immigration or Victorian England when men moved into the cities en masse for factory work).

    The problem is that men fear venereal disease, but still want sex, so they demand virgins, and in practice that means they want them younger and younger so they can be sure. After they have been thus used, they are considered “damaged goods” and have no chance to marry. Sometimes their own families sell them off to pay off a debt or medical bills or what have you.

    • Replies: @notanon
  169. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    in my experience the vast majority of the demand for child prostitutes (in the West) comes from immigrants working for minimum wage and sending most of it home so they have no spending money – in particular immigrants from countries where the age of consent is much lower so 13 (for example) is not even seen as a big deal – and for the most part the girls are supplied by gangs from the same ethnic group.

    it may be different elsewhere.

  170. AaronB says:

    Regression to the mean also contradicts evolutionary theory, which says that a favorable mutation is passed along to ones children…

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @reiner Tor
  171. notanon says:
    @AaronB

    balanced selection – what’s favorable?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  172. AaronB says:
    @notanon

    As far as I understand it, the idea is that a smart person may emerge from a stupid family due to favourable mutations, but then his offspring doesn’t get this mutation but reverts to the mean…

    Doesn’t the whole theory of evolution rest on the idea that favourable mutations are passed along?

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @EldnahYm
  173. notanon says:
    @AaronB

    right – but if a particular trait had both costs and benefits you’d want the mean value to be the optimal value for the average person – outliers might have more of the benefits but more of the costs too.

    regression to the mean = fail-safe

    • Replies: @AaronB
  174. @AaronB

    I thought I had shown that regression to the mean is another HBD fantasy, at least as understood by HBDers, and a rare and unusual event….

    That the concept would imply constant turnover in the smart fraction, the non existence of a stable smart fraction, and the non existence of talented families who consistently produce offspring above the mean..

    Sorry, I don’t quite see your logic here.

    Let’s take that last assertion of yours. You are saying that “talented families who consistently produce offspring above the mean” would not exist if regression to the mean were real, but this phenomenon is perfectly explainable by the common definition of the concept.

    I think your error here is that you define “mean” wrongly: the mean is not the mean of many individuals (e.g. a large population) but specifically the mean of the two parents, and by “regression to the mean” we mean that two parents with a strong “random” component on a given trait (let’s say general intelligence) will on average have offspring with a weaker “random” component (that is, lower general intelligence). An example with IQ (which I prefer to avoid referring to, but it makes an easy example):

    Average Family

    Father’s IQ: 100 (genetic component) + 15 (random component) = 115 (1 SD over his “set point”)
    Mother’s IQ: 100 (genetic component) + 30 (random component) = 130 (2 SD over her “set point”)

    What is their offspring’s expected IQ? The answer is not 122.5, as you might expect, but 100 (the average of their genetic components). There are some tacit assumptions here, but I’ll skip those for the sake of simplicity. Next, let’s have a look at a bright couple:

    Bright Family

    Father’s IQ: 100 (genetic component) – 15 (random component) = 85 (1 SD under his “set point”)
    Mother’s IQ: 130 (genetic component) + 0 (random component) = 130 (0 SD over her “set point”)

    Again, what is their offspring’s expected IQ? The answer, as before, is that their offspring’s expected IQ is the average of the two parents’ “genetic IQ,” that is 115. Note that this expectation is higher than that in the “average family” even though the father is probably a bit dull.

    Well, this is my understanding of the concept anyway. I’m happy to be corrected.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  175. @AaronB

    Regression to the mean is a very simple concept. It’s certain to be true, because it’s almost tautological. Do you really not understand it? Or maybe you never thought it through.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  176. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    You did concede my point there.

    Nobody said women need to have 8 babies apiece. The point is that 8 babies born today are not equivalent to 8 babies born in the past under different conditions.

    You’re conceding another point here by agreeing that there is a disadvantage in having children after a certain age.

    Having children late in life is not ideal in terms of increasing fertility rates or in terms of the health of offspring “in an advanced society with ample nutrition and low infant mortality.” It’s ideal in terms of women maximizing their pre-marital lifestyles.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  177. AaronB says:
    @Swedish Family

    Aha, can a favourable genetic mutation be classed under the random component?

    Surely, some children are smarter than their parents through a random favourable mutation, which gets passed down. Perhaps that is how dynasties of talent start.

    Of course, that is how the human race got smart to begin with. Or became human.

    Ok, if some children are smarter than their parents for random unknown reasons, I can see why we have no grounds to expect these random unknown reasons to precisely reproduce themselves again.

    Although since we don’t know what they are, we cannot really estimate the probability, and cannot establish a rule of reversion to the mean.

    What percentage of the smart fraction then is there only because of some random unknown reasons? I suspect it isn’t very high, or we’d be seeing much more turnover among the elite.

    Also, we have no grounds to posit a reversion to the racial mean in any given case if, as you say, the mean is that of the two parents.

    The two parents may belong to the genetic smart fraction of their race, or one or both may belong to that percentage that is smart due to random unknown reasons, and their offspring will under revert.

    Since the percentage of people smarter than their parents for random unknown reasons is probably not very large, reversion to the mean must be fringe phenomena.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  178. AaronB says:
    @notanon

    Sure, but natural selection is blind, and doesn’t optimize.

    As long as the trait overall is beneficial, even if it has serious drawbacks it will be selected for.

  179. AaronB says:
    @reiner Tor

    Are you keeping up with all this Tor?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  180. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Ackshually…

    https://www.bloomberg.com/diversity-inclusion/blog/top-10-things-everyone-know-women-consumers/

    1. If the consumer economy had a sex, it would be female. Women drive 70-80% of all consumer purchasing, through a combination of their buying power and influence. Influence means that even when a woman isn’t paying for something herself, she is often the influence or veto vote behind someone else’s purchase.

    If men actually controlled consumer spending, demand for most consumer goods would collapse and the trade deficit would disappear. Men, especially married men, tend to be natural cheapskates. When married men control spending, they generally try to get away with being as cheap as possible to the great consternation of their wives, besides indulging in a few big ticket personal toys such as boats and the like.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Rosie
  181. EldnahYm says:
    @dfordoom

    In many cases, it’s clearly bad for some humans. One need only observe the behavior of drug addicts, alcoholics, tobacco users, and morbidly obese people to see that freedom is not always good.

    Also many types of freedoms are at odds with each other obviously. One’s freedom to enjoy peace and quiet is harmed by a neighbor’s freedom to listen to loud music.

  182. EldnahYm says:
    @AaronB

    A person who has a new mutation that increases intelligence is more likely to have smarter offspring relative to someone who does not have this mutation, all else equal. This is not incompatible with the notion that a smart person from a long line of smart people is more likely to pass on genes for smartness than a smart person from a long line of dumb people.

    Regression to the mean is not based upon the idea that new mutations are not passed on.

    Statistics is not incompatible with evolutionary theory. On the contrary, people like R.A. Fisher developed much of modern statistics by trying to develop an evolutionary account of biology.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  183. AaronB says:
    @EldnahYm

    Ok, that makes sense.

    But it does seem like a marginal phenomenon.

    And the example that started this discussion, Ashkenazi Israelis marrying smart Sephardis, doesn’t seem like a situation where regression to the mean might be a significant factor.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  184. EldnahYm says:
    @AaronB

    One can imagine a scenario where the impact of particular genes is different in people of highly divergent genetic backgrounds, perhaps due to differing gene-gene interactions or other reasons. This could lead to a situation where mixing leads to lower or higher than expected offspring intelligence.

    To know about the impact of IQ biased Ashkenazi and Sephardic, we would need empirical data.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  185. @AaronB

    A simple model.

    IQ is the sum total of three variables:

    1) genetic IQ (GIQ)

    2) systematic environmental effects (SIQ), which is found in modern environments to be close to 0 (in medieval environments it was substantial, with poor children starving and so their IQs were systematically negatively affected by their environment)

    3) random environmental effects (RIQ), which is substantial, and currently accounts for maybe 20% of variation

    Since SIQ is close to zero, let’s not think of it any longer. So, IQ=SIQ+RIQ.

    To make the model simple enough, let’s imagine that SIQ can only be a round number (so, either 110, or 120, but never 117), and that RIQ is ±10.

    Also, to keep things simple, imagine that there’s a perfect assortative mating. 140 IQ guys marrying 140 IQ gals.

    So you have a guy whose IQ is 140. This is the result of GIQ+RIQ. So either he has 150 or 130 GIQ. However, there are many more people with a GIQ of 130 than those with a GIQ of 150. Therefore, it’s overwhelmingly likely that the 140 IQ guy actually only has a GIQ of 130. In other words, smart people (those above the average, especially those very much above the average) are very likely to be the beneficiaries of random luck. Their GIQ is probably lower. Imagine two 140 IQ people marrying. Their expected GIQ is 130 in both cases (there’s a small chance for both to be 150, so the expected value might be maybe 133; the important point is that the expected GIQ for both is lower than the actual measured phenotypical IQ), so naturally their child will also have a GIQ of 130. This means that their children will have an IQ of either 140 or 120: so on average, just 130. Now, the 140 child in the next generation will also have a 140 IQ spouse, repeating this. The 120 IQ child will have a 120 IQ spouse. Now, the 120 IQ spouse could have a GIQ of 110 or 130, but, alas, 110 is more likely than 130, because there are way more people with a GIQ of 110 than 130. So the 120 IQ spouse will now probably have a 115 GIQ child (okay, now we have to allow this, but this was just a very simple model to explain this), who will either have 105 or 125 actual phenotypical IQ, marrying someone with 125 or 105.

    However, if you are substantially below the average, the dynamics will be the opposite. So the 70 IQ guy will likely have a GIQ of 80, rather than 60. Same thing for his (presumably also 70 IQ) spouse. His children will therefore have a GIQ of 80, and with a little luck could reach 90. (But with no luck will still be floored at 70, i.e. the average of the parents.)

    Now, of course, RIQ is actually something like a normal distribution like most of these things, so its effects are usually small (maybe just 5 IQ points), but its results are less binary than in my example (i.e. it won’t be one child exactly at the parents’ level, the other substantially closer to the mean, instead it will be both children somewhat closer to the mean than the parents were), but it will continue in the next generation (because the 140 IQ couple’s 137 IQ child will marry a 137 IQ spouse, so his children will only be 135 IQ, and so on and so on; similarly, the 60 IQ couple’s child will be expected to be 63 IQ, who will thus marry a 63 IQ spouse, and his children will be 65 IQ, etc.).

    Please note that in the second generation the effect will be slightly smaller, because whereas in the first generation we expected both members to benefit from good luck in the high IQ case, or bad luck in the low IQ case, one generation later we only expect this of the spouse. This is, of course, merely expected value. It’s random, so theoretically it’s possible that both members of a 150 IQ couple actually have a GIQ of 160, in which case their children are expected to be even smarter. But it’s not very likely, so the expected IQ of a 150 IQ couple will be lower than 150.

    As we get closer to the mean (of the population), the effect gets weaker, and if you cross it, it will reverse. So a 110 IQ couple’s children will be expected to be lower IQ, but not very much lower. And a 95 IQ couple’s children are already expected to be more intelligent than their parents.

    Now, if you managed to get a bunch of 140 IQ people with an average expected RIQ of -10, and put them on an island, then the resulting population would have an average IQ of 130. This is high, but not as high as the founding population. But then it would stay there forever. (Absent any selective pressure, of course.) It won’t revert to the mean of the bigger population, now it would be a new population, whose mean would be, from the second generation, 130, and all reversion would be purely to this new mean of the new population.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Swedish Family
  186. AaronB says:
    @EldnahYm

    Yes, I can see that being the case.

    At this point its speculation, though

  187. AaronB says:
    @reiner Tor

    Thank you. That was very well and thoroughly explained.

    I suppose the presumption would be that the high GIQ section of the Sephardic population would be marrying into the Ashkenazi.

    Populations with different mean GIQ will have a certain amount of overlap – however, the existence of RIQ partially masks the overlap. Obviously if we could precisely pinpoint the GIQ overlap there would be no reversion to the mean resulting from their union.

    So RIQ introduces a wild card. So I think it is fair to say that the new population resulting from the union will have a slightly lower mean IQ, but I think it’s fair to presume many unions will be within the GIQ overlap.

    So I accept that slight lowering may occur, but it is unlikely to be significant or have a very large impact.

    A small price to pay for social harmony and good will.

    Only one thing you said was not quite right – it isn’t random environmental effects. We actually cannot characterize what it is at all, we are completely in the dark about the nature of these effects.

  188. @reiner Tor

    A simple model.

    Thanks for giving your explanation in such detail.

    Where I might disagree is that you assume that the direction of the random effect is not random, but depends on the GIQ of the population from which the two parents are drawn (e.g. the higher the parents’ average IQ relative to the population mean, the greater the probability of a negative random effect). This doesn’t strike me as self-evident: if both parents have a far higher GIQ than the population from which they are drawn, does it not make more sense to treat them as an all new “population” and use their average GIQ as the “baseline”? This would seem especially useful if we imagine people from two wildly different populations mating. Using your model, how could we even define the baseline if a dull Israeli and a smart Haitian mated? I suppose we could use as the baseline the average of the average Israeli and Haitian GIQs, but that’s just a scaled-up version of my model, isn’t it? Or am I missing something?

  189. @AaronB

    What percentage of the smart fraction then is there only because of some random unknown reasons? I suspect it isn’t very high, or we’d be seeing much more turnover among the elite.

    Yes, the standard deviation I gave is probably far too high. I’m sure there is hard data on this, but from my observations, brothers and sisters seldom differ very obviously in intelligence once you account for differences in interests and so on.

  190. AP says:
    @Rosie

    Sure, but Romney had a tendency of getting things done. Arguably, a soft but actually implemented policy would have been better than a hard policy that was not implemented.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  191. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    You did concede my point there.

    You’re an idiot and a troll.

    You’re conceding another point here by agreeing that there is a disadvantage in having children after a certain age.

    Did anyone ever deny that? If you’re going to claim uncontroversial, trivial points as some sort of “concession,” then all you’re doing is showing yourself to be an assholea and a sophist.

    Now that you have admitted that we don’t need to have eight kids, the only questions are: how many will we have and when do we need to start having children to achieve our desired fertility? Assuming a woman wants to have three children, spaced the usual 30 months apart, a woman should aim to start no later than her mid-20s. That leaves plenty of time for four years of college, and even a master’s degree, which is what this is all about, isn’t it? You don’t want women getting an education.

    It’s ideal in terms of women maximizing their pre-marital lifestyles.

    Bullshit. It’s about a woman accomplishing her own personal goals, which I know is deeply offensive to you, since you see us as nothing but baby-making machines.

    Not that you care, but FWIW, some husbands are considerate enough to wait for their wives to finish their education before demanding children.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Anonymous
  192. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    If men actually controlled consumer spending, demand for most consumer goods would collapse and the trade deficit would disappear.

    You are such a ridiculous little creep. Even if true, who cares? The elimination of the trade deficit wouldn’t redound to the benefit of American workers. It would just put a lot of third-worldwrs out of jobs.

    When married men control spending, they generally try to get away with being as cheap as possible

    No they don’t. They just try to get away as cheaply as possible when it’s for something they don’t care about, as you admit here (contradicting yourself):

    besides indulging in a few big ticket personal toys such as boats and the like.

    I’ll say.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  193. Rosie says:
    @AP

    Sure, but Romney had a tendency of getting things done. Arguably, a soft but actually implemented policy would have been better than a hard policy that was not implemented.

    Romney wouldn’t have done a damned thing about immigration, for the same reason that Trump isn’t doing anything: the donor class veto.

    It’s all academic anyway. College-educated White White women voted for him for muh tax cuts. Non-college White women had no use for him. With Trump, that was reversed. In either case, White White women have never been fully won over by the GOP, and for good reason. They’re useless.

  194. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    Bullshit. It’s about a woman accomplishing her own personal goals, which I know is deeply offensive to you, since you see us as nothing but baby-making machines.

    I have been trying to make what I consider a straightforward point: that if women are rushed into motherhood, they might have fewer children than they otherwise would have. It appears that the same may be true for men, as their fertility expectations are affected by their sense of financial well-being.

    https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol39/9/default.htm

  195. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Ackshually…

    How much of an idiot is 375?

    Women buy shit, keeping men employed in factories. Greedy men fire them and replace them with Third World sweatshop labor.

    Conclusion: It’s all women’s fault.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  196. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    I think higher education is largely useless for most men as well. It’s not a sexist thing.

    Generally speaking, most young women who are highly interested in higher education and postgraduate studies aren’t determined to settle down in their mid-20s and start having 3 kids. Why would they be? Higher ed opens up new career and social opportunities that they will want to explore. Settling down right after college wastes those opportunities.

    By “pre-marital lifestyles”, I include things such as “accomplishing personal goals”.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @dfordoom
  197. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    It would benefit American households by curtailing wasteful consumer spending. Spending is also a cost to household budgets.

    I’m not contradicting myself. There are only so many boats a middle class man can buy. Traditionally, married middle class men who control their household budgets are very cheap.

    BTW, things like boats are high value added manufacturing goods. Women’s consumer spending tends to be for low value added, low tech goods.

  198. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Women’s consumer spending tends to be for very low value added, low tech goods. It generally doesn’t support a high value added, high wage manufacturing economy.

    Men tend to buy high tech gadgets, tools, vehicles, boats, equipment, etc., which also generates demand for sophisticated high tech capital goods.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  199. @AaronB

    I would say, however, that I’m an attracted to places with depth and character, that are the opposite of a clean and beautiful American suburb, and whose deficiencies can only be considered serious from the point of view economic efficiency, but not from the pov of life.

    Lol, this should be interesting.

    Have you ever actually been to Israel? Can you speak Hebrew? Do you plan to live in a religious settlement?

    My guess is you’ll be cleaving to Americans/Anglos as much as possible and struggling to come to terms with the quirkiness of Israeli behavior (less for it being specifically “Israeli,” rather simply foreign). I’d be impressed if you lasted a year.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Dmitry
  200. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Some may think i’m over-exaggerating, but honestly, who needs Jews and other hardcore subversionists when you have old dyke white women like our glorious supreme Mama Angela Merkel, Theresa May, and millions of other disgusting fat women, old hags, dykes, feminists and so on running around uncontrollably while having positions of authority. The amount of damage they’re doing is arguably just as bad, if not in some cases even worse than Jews or Third World Invaders.

    You would only have a point with this argument if male politicians in the west consistently took an opposing position.

    But have they? Obviously not. They have been – and remain – enthusiastic cheerleaders for massive and endless immigration.

  201. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Generally speaking, most young women who are highly interested in higher education and postgraduate studies aren’t determined to settle down in their mid-20s and start having 3 kids. Why would they be? Higher ed opens up new career and social opportunities that they will want to explore. Settling down right after college wastes those opportunities.

    And here you reveal your ridiculous lack of insight about women. You are projecting Male values and sensibilities (spread your seed) into women. You literally have no idea what you’re talking about.

    https://www.chronicle.com/article/Ring-by-Spring-How/241840

    I think higher education is largely useless for most men as well. It’s not a sexist thing

    Then you’re just a cretin who doesn’t understand that education isn’t just about money.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  202. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Women’s consumer spending tends to be for very low value added, low tech goods. It generally doesn’t support a high value added, high wage manufacturing economy.

    Blah, blah, blah you’re just so stories are so tiresome. The fact remains that women have provided consumer demand for all manner of things that a working- class man could earn a living making before greedy men decided to replace him, to wit:

    Fancy new dishwashers and refrigerators with all the bells and whistles
    Furniture
    Cabinetry

    We still keep men working installing hardwood floors, granite countertops, etc

    I know you’ll have some reason why that’s “low-tech” or otherwise not worthwhile, because after all what we all really need is new obamaphone every year and a bigger television set.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  203. Rosie says:
    @silviosilver

    But have they? Obviously not. They have been – and remain – enthusiastic cheerleaders for massive and endless immigration.

    Male or female, the politicians are all puppets, every single one.

  204. AaronB says:
    @silviosilver

    I am an Israeli citizen. (And an American one).

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  205. dfordoom says: • Website
    @notanon

    i think the populations of industrialized nations grew too high due to the labor needs of early industrial society and ideally would shrink to maybe 2/3 their current population

    That’s quite possibly true. But how do you rate your chances of persuading the corporate sector that ever-shrinking markets might be a good thing? And in today’s world the corporate sector has more influence over policy than elected officials.

    • Replies: @notanon
  206. dfordoom says: • Website
    @notanon

    i think much lower population density and expansion into space would be a lot better than the ant’s nest we are going to get under current extrapolation.

    Expansion into space? There’s nowhere reachable that could be made even vaguely habitable. Colonies in space would be a major drain on resources, for zero gain.

    • Replies: @notanon
  207. dfordoom says: • Website
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I never said that the welfare state was “subversion”. Truthfully though, as far as punishing men through no-fault divorce, payments to single mothers, and encouraging women’s education, the welfare state really is an extremely subversive, harmful, and destructive influence on any given society.

    No-fault divorce is disastrous but it has nothing to do with the welfare state. Nor does encouraging women’s education have anything to do with the welfare state. You could have a very successful welfare state without no-fault divorce and encouraging women’s education.

    The welfare state and the social experiments which you (quite correctly) identify as harmful are two different concepts. Two different animals. The welfare state is an Old Left concept. It is not necessarily anti-family. These social experiments are the product of the New Left. There is no common ground between the Old Left and the New Left.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  208. @AaronB

    So you’ve lived there and can speak the language?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  209. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Large appliances like fridges and dishwashers are replaced very infrequently, much less frequently than cars. Likewise for traditional furniture. Those stats that describe how women control upwards of 80+% of consumer spending does not consist of items that are bought once or twice a lifetime like refrigerators.

    Home remodeling contractors would be an example of a non-tradeable service, not a tradeable good, so irrelevant to our discussion here. Although I would note that a lot of the household spending on home remodeling by women could be characterized as wasteful or luxury spending.

    • Replies: @notanon
  210. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Your link is about students at Jerry Falwell’s university and other fundamentalist Christian universities. It describes a minority subculture in the US. Most young people are not a part of that culture. It’s not representative.

    Education isn’t about money, which is why higher education is pointless for most men and women.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  211. @Rosie

    The ability to abort is something that can only be given to women by the state. It is the state empowering women to avoid their biological responsibility by fulfilling their highest natural purpose. That is, to make babies and raise them.

    As for your claim that abortion is actually more popular among men than women, at least in the USA, it’s simply wrong. It’s one thing whether men and women support or oppose “the right” to abort in an absolute sense – completely for or against in every single circumstance – compared to whether they support it in certain situations – such as rape, harm to the mother, deformed or mutated child, and so on. –

    What’s clear is that in the USA at least, men are de facto more opposed to an absolute “right” to abortion compared to women.

    So it is very clear that the percentage of women who support an absolute “right” to abortion is larger than the percentage of men who support it.

    You’ve also stated that abortion allows men to “walk away from their responsibilities”. There is some truth to this. The thing is that when the traditional family was broken apart since the sexual liberation of the 1960’s, men didn’t have any incentive, and with good reason, stopped feeling any obligations to be faithful and loyal to women by helping them raise their children. After all, why should they be? Since then, women have been allowed to openly run around being degenerate whores without any form of social restraint. In fact, it was and still is encouraged as “female empowerment” for women to go and have sex with lots of men. In the modern world we’ve reached the point where women even brag about being gang-banged …

    What incentive does a man have to commit and be faithful towards a woman in the 21st century west? If a man enters into a conventional marriage with a woman, he’s signed himself off with at least half of his financial value to the complete mercy of a woman, thanks to women being empowered with no fault divorce. The government’s eagerness to grant welfare payments to single mothers encourages women to be complete whores and cheat on men whenever they like because they don’t depend on men to survive. The education of women is also a complete disaster because women are on average, as a collective, inferior to men in terms of intelligence and physical strength in literally nearly every category. Putting aside the fact that women are biologically weaker forms of life, modern education in the west is a mess. When women get educated, especially when they go to university or college, they usually spend their time being absolute degenerate whores that play around with tens and hundreds of penises over a few year time period. University and College take away any family restraint that may have existed beforehand. In the process, they also rip apart a few men with false rape accusations because they don’t think those men satisfied them well enough. They can do this because the state has empowered women with the ability to literally ruin the lives of men based on the way the wind blows over their vagina. The same applies for no fault divorces as well, of course.

    University and college basically transform women to become a worthless form of human waste. If they actually even end up working at jobs, at best, they become nothing more than an inferior version of a male corporate slave. Any man who enters a conventional marriage with a woman in the modern west is by default a cuckold to either the state or other men who have their way with his wife. The scenario where a married man ends up being cuckolded by both is unfortunately all too common. Of course, since to begin with, most women aren’t virgins and are encouraged to be sexually promiscuous from an early age, most men are also cucks before they even marry a woman since an average woman will have played with tens of penises. This is the case because male semen alters a woman’s biology and genetics. It also does the same with her future offspring, even if the semen and sperm of another man that come later are the ones that make the future baby. Basically, the man whose semen has first access to a woman is the one whose genetics that woman will most reliably continue in her own person and her future offspring regardless of what happens after. There’s a whole discipline to it called Telegony (Women, Liberals and Jews are trying to discredit the science of it because they want men to be cucks):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegony_(pregnancy)

    http://www.pravdareport.com/health/94136-telegony/

    https://culturacolectiva.com/technology/telegony-phenomenon-children-get-ex-partners-looks

    Virginity has always historically been valued with good reason. Unfortunately, if i had to guess the average age at which women lose their virginity in the west, it would be around 15. Maybe even earlier. This means that the majority of women in the modern west are damaged goods while the majority of men are cuckolds … Women simply must become the private property of men in any society, if that society intends to survive in the long term.

    You’ve also managed to expose how much of a typical dumb woman you really are. Of course, by whining for Anatoly Karlin to ban me, you’re showing how strong and empowered women truly are. So strong and empowered that they have to beg either stronger males or the government to help them when they’re confronted with any threats …

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Rosie
    , @silviosilver
  212. @silviosilver

    I never stated that male politicians weren’t behind harming the west. Male politicians are also theoretically much more likely to try and resist their masters if given the opportunity. Trump, Salvini and Orban could theoretically be considered to be such politicians.

    Still, i only pointed out that women are doing much more harm than they are helping much of anything. They are doing more harm than good because they’re too dumb to realize what’s really going on, and their emotional irrationality has been weaponized against their own men and society …

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  213. notanon says:
    @dfordoom

    ever-shrinking markets

    we have ever shrinking markets now – it’s why the global economy is crumbling

    more poor people -> less effective demand (velocity of money)

    how do you rate your chances of persuading the corporate sector

    poorly – it needs some economist outside the West to prove a large middle class creates the optimal velocity of money.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  214. notanon says:
    @Anonymous

    Those stats that describe how women control upwards of 80+% of consumer spending

    women buy most of the food, kid’s clothes, tooth paste etc

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Anonymous
  215. I’ve recently been reading the blogger Bohemicus (an explorer and admirer of old monarchical Europe who used to write for Sputnik and Pogrom before it got blocked), and given the level of stupidity this discussion has come to, his quote is apt:

    In fact I think third wave (or fourth, or whichever they have now) feminism is a criminal, and worse, cretin ideology.

    But emancipation of women and their fully equal rights are self-evident things. The clowns that come forward against women’s equal rights should be kept in cages and shown in zoos for money. I would place two rows of cages facing each other. Radical feminists would sit on one side, and patriarchal morons with the Domostroy in their heads on the other.

    https://bohemicus.livejournal.com/134352.html?thread=35782096#t35782096

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  216. Bohemicus on low fertility and the no borders thing:

    I believe few people today understand what’s happening to the West and its inhabitants. One of the few who do is [Yuval Noah] Harari, who says outright that people will become gods tomorrow.

    It is so. Genetic engineering, super longevity, cheapening of production until it can satisfy not just every need but every fantasy; all of this makes people at least demigods.

    Hence all the changes in the life of Western society. People judge them by human measure, and they should be judged by divine measure (not of Christianity, but of Olympian gods and the like.)

    It’s from this angle that one should view the spread of atheism (gods don’t need God), lowering fertility (gods can’t have many children), decline of state institutions (why would gods need borders), dissolution of national identity (gods are uninterested in mortals’ myths), and all the rest.

    https://bohemicus.livejournal.com/134352.html?thread=35821520#t35821520

  217. Rosie says:
    @dfordoom

    The welfare state and the social experiments which you (quite correctly) identify as harmful are two different concepts.

    Doom on the record for thinking “women’s education” is “harmful.” What an asshole.

  218. Rosie says:
    @notanon

    women buy most of the food, kid’s clothes, tooth paste etc

    This person is a troll who constantly badgers me with patently-ridiculoys arguments for no other purpose than to exasperate and discourage me, and eventually drive me away. He will literally never admit that there is anything good about women or anything we do. Take this ridiculous statement:

    Those stats that describe how women control upwards of 80+% of consumer spending does not consist of items that are bought once or twice a lifetime like refrigerators.

    Seriously, imagine being this stupid. If indeed refrigerators are only bought once or twice a lifetime, then evidently women don’t have nearly the household spending clout that he claims we do.

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @Anonymous
  219. Rosie says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    So it is very clear that the percentage of women who support an absolute “right” to abortion is larger than the percentage of men who support it.

    Just barely, and in either case, it’s a minority of both men and women, yet we have unlimited abortion anyway. That right there tells you that women are not the problem, because the courts have taken the issue away from the voters.

    After all, why should they be? Since then, women have been allowed to openly run around being degenerate whores without any form of social restraint.

    When it’s women’s fault, it’s women’s fault. When it’s men’s fault, it’s still women’s fault.

    If a man enters into a conventional marriage with a woman, he’s signed himself off with at least half of his financial value to the complete mercy of a woman,

    Here again is the bizarre claim that men refuse to get married because marriage is a binding legal contract with real-world consequences. IOW, we can’t actually expect men to get married for real. We can only expect them them to get dressed up in a suit and pretend to get married, all the while not actually signing on to the community of property and interest that institution entails.

    The government’s eagerness to grant welfare payments to single mothers encourages women to be complete whores and cheat on men whenever they like because they don’t depend on men to survive.

    Because women should be relegated to forced prostitution.

    The education of women is also a complete disaster because women are on average, as a collective, inferior to men in terms of intelligence and physical strength in literally nearly every category.

    White men shouldn’t be educated because they are intellectually inferior to Asian women. Let them do the physical labor.

    Women simply must become the private property of men in any society, if that society intends to survive in the long term.

    I should have just skipped straight to the end.

    Mr. Karlin, is advocating or the enslavement of groups of human beings kosher on this site? Seriously, do you think the presence here of this deranged individual is good for the dissident right?

  220. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    I think higher education is largely useless for most men as well. It’s not a sexist thing.

    Agreed. Society only needs a small number of university graduates. Our universities, throughout the West, are churning out way more graduates than are actually needed for society. In particular they’re turning out absurd numbers of lawyers and absurd numbers of people with completely useless degrees. These surplus college graduates are not merely useless but dangerous. They gravitate towards political activism.

    We’re probably producing at least twice as many graduates as we need overall and in some areas we’re producing four or five times as many as we need.

  221. dfordoom says: • Website
    @silviosilver

    You would only have a point with this argument if male politicians in the west consistently took an opposing position.

    But have they? Obviously not. They have been – and remain – enthusiastic cheerleaders for massive and endless immigration.

    The entire political class in the West is worthless and toxic. Male politicians and female politicians are equally toxic.

    But any argument that women improve the overall quality of the political class is clearly absurd.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @silviosilver
  222. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Your link is about students at Jerry Falwell’s university and other fundamentalist Christian universities. It describes a minority subculture in the US. Most young people are not a part of that culture. It’s not representative.

    As usual, you have missed the point. Obviously, it’s an unrepresentative subculture, but the question is why and in what respect. You claim that women who have just completed or are completing their education will not be open to commitment with no evidence whatsoever. Rather, it is men who are not getting down on one knee to pop the question, leading women to conclude that they are on their own.

    Education isn’t about money, which is why higher education is pointless for most men and women.

    Education is a filler for most. You can cut down on the number of university enrollments, but then you will need some other filler, like national service or backpacking or whatever. This is a normal, natural part of growing up.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  223. Rosie says:
    @dfordoom

    But any argument that women improve the overall quality of the political class is clearly absurd.

    Um, ackshully:

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167268118300933?via%3Dihub

  224. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Toronto Russian

    “But emancipation of women and their fully equal rights are self-evident things.”

    That’s true if you assume that men and women are identical.

    If they’re not identical then they may need to be treated slightly differently by the law, if for no other reason then because women require more protection, especially women with children.

    And if they’re not identical then emancipation can end up pushing women into trying to live the way men live, which isn’t going to work.

  225. Rosie says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Of course, by whining for Anatoly Karlin to ban me, you’re showing how strong and empowered women truly are.

    You are a reject and a misfit with no stake in the future. As such, you do not care about securing a future for White children, so it’s no surprise that you disgrace the dissident right with no concern whatsoever for the optics.

    That is not so for me. I have six White children whose future depends on a functioning White advocacy movement. You (and all your friends) need to go.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  226. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    One thing I wanted to point out for more fair-minded men in these parts is that TheTotallyAnonymous maintains both of the following:

    1. Women should not own marital property in common with their husbands, and
    2. Women should not work and earn their own money.

    While this poster is clearly deranged, this particular error is very common among dissidents. One might argue that women have no interest in their husband’s property and should rather go ot and earn their own. I disagree vehemently with this, obviously, but it at least has an internal logic and fairness about it.

    On the other hand, one might argue that women are entitled to an interest in their husband’s property, and therefore shouldn’t work outside the home, because a man needs the money more than she does. I am rather more sympathetic to this argument, and indeed I suspect this argument may become more compelling as automation proceeds. In any event, this is an argument that has a certain logic and fairness to it that must be conceded even by people who disagree.

    What we see with this poster, and many other men on the dissident right, is that women must have no ability to ever own anything or have any financial security whatsoever. A woman is not entitled to a share of her husband’s earnings and shouldn’t be allowed to earn anything herself.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  227. Rosie says:
    @Rosie

    Women simply must become the private property of men in any society, if that society intends to survive in the long term.

    As it happens, we have a natural experiment with extreme misogyny in rural India right now.

    How is that working out for them? 200,000,000 women (yes, you read that right, 200 million) women have gone demographically missing because of sex-selective abortion, neglect of female children, and outright murder (euphemized as “female infanticide”).

    Parents kill their daughters because they will never control wealth and won’t be able to provide for them on their old age. They are therefore seen as a burden. Mothers don’t resist because they see no point in bringing a girl into a world that despises and abuses them.

    Even for those of you who don’t think female lives matter, consider that a dead girl will never bear sons.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  228. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    badgers me

    trolling is the art of getting people mad online

    with patently-ridiculoys arguments

    pick out weakest point and counter it with one line

    spending less time on yours than he does on his = win

  229. @Rosie

    Mr. Karlin, is advocating or the enslavement of groups of human beings kosher on this site? Seriously, do you think the presence here of this deranged individual is good for the dissident right?

    That’s an odd statement coming from a regular commenter. The whole point of this site is precisely that everyone is welcome to comment, no matter how extreme his views. Instead of getting worked up over this, cherish the fact that you are getting the unfiltered opinion. This is very rare. (But not in Sweden, funnily enough: our biggest forum is rather like Unz Review in this respect*, so we Swedes find free-speech absolutism normal.)

    * For a time, it even had a subforum where enterprising criminals could ask veterans for advice on how best to carry out bank robberies, prison breaks, tax fraud, and things like that, but that was too edgy even for libertarian Swedes.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  230. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @notanon

    It’s for total consumer spending, not just for necessities like food, toothpaste, and the like, which are very cheap these days.

    Married middle class fathers are naturally extreme cheapskates and would be happy with hand me downs and used stuff from yard sales if they controlled consumer spending.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  231. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Women dominate consumer spending in the economy. There are entire retailers like Target devoted to selling women unnecessary household consumer goods crap.

  232. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Obviously, it’s an unrepresentative subculture, but the question is why and in what respect.

    It’s a subculture that indoctrinates young women to believe that they will spend an eternity in hell and not reach heaven unless they are good Christians, and being a good Christian involves conforming to traditional gender roles. In other words, it’s what you’re against and have been regularly arguing against in Unz Review comment threads.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  233. @Swedish Family

    (But not in Sweden, funnily enough: our biggest forum is rather like Unz Review in this respect*, so we Swedes find free-speech absolutism normal.)

    Really? That is indeed strange to hear, and certainly not what one would expect given the news which arrives about your country’s political disposition. How do the PC brigades square free speech absolutism with their PC values?

  234. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    The more fundamental point, more fundamental than endless hair splitting debates over how much women deserve this or that and why, is that any sort of property only exists as a result of property rights provided by men. Property exists because men employ force to defend particular pieces of property, either as individuals or part of a group in militias, militaries, etc. Women aren’t expected to do this, and can’t do it.

    Property is a male social construct.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @Rosie
  235. @dfordoom

    But any argument that women improve the overall quality of the political class is clearly absurd.

    Women’s political participation was never based on the argument that they would improve “the overall quality of the political class.” The argument for their inclusion has generally been couched in the language of fairness and equality. To that end, I think it’s the fact that women have done no obvious damage to the overall quality of the political class that deserves to be emphasized.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  236. @Anonymous

    And therefore what, women should be denied property rights? I’m actually open to persuasion on this point. It’s just that none of the arguments I’ve heard so far fill me with confidence that the resulting society is one I’d look forward to living in.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  237. @notanon

    we have ever shrinking markets now – it’s why the global economy is crumbling

    Based on metrics not known to any actual economists, I take it.

  238. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Still, i only pointed out that women are doing much more harm than they are helping much of anything. They are doing more harm than good because they’re too dumb to realize what’s really going on, and their emotional irrationality has been weaponized against their own men and society …

    I take it this is a reference to feminism, particularly the insane ‘3rd wave’ variant of it which is currently running amok. If so, why not target that specifically rather than broadly impeach ‘women’ as a class?

    If I might put a question to you, generally speaking, in any sphere of human activity, who would you prefer to have making the decisions: an intelligent woman or an unintelligent man?

    If your answer is the former, then isn’t that an ipso facto argument for at least some degree of women’s political inclusion?

    (And if your answer is the latter, well, ummm…hmmmm….)

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  239. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    It’s a subculture that indoctrinates young women to believe that they will spend an eternity in hell and not reach heaven unless they are good Christians, and being a good Christian involves conforming to traditional gender roles.

    Here you go shooting your mouth off without evidence again, assuming women but not men need indoctrinating and threatening to do the right thing.

    Nevermind the fact that you are theologically illiterate. Evangelicals are solar fide/sola Garcia. You can live your entire life as a single career woman and still go to heaven, no problem.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  240. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    So it is very clear that the percentage of women who support an absolute “right” to abortion is larger than the percentage of men who support it.

    Yeah, a distinct minority of women favor an absolute right to abortion by about three whole percentage points or so more than a distinct minority of men. That’s a slam dunk argument against women if I’ve ever see one!

    The education of women is also a complete disaster because women are on average, as a collective, inferior to men in terms of intelligence and physical strength in literally nearly every category.

    Your post is more of a tirade than an attempt at a serious argument, so there’s no point responding in depth to anything you’ve said. (You sound like you have a lot you want to get off your chest. I guess this is as good a place as any to do it.) Even so, that was a spectacularly silly thing to say. Try to think through the implications of that line of reasoning being applied more broadly – does it still seem like such a great idea?

  241. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Property exists because men employ force to defend particular pieces of property, either as individuals or part of a group in militias, militaries, etc. Women aren’t expected to do this, and can’t do it.

    No, we just give birth to and nurture the men who do so, and have been doing since then dawn of civilization.

    https://blogmilitaryfamily.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/gold-star-mothers-day-graphic.png?w=762&resize=660%2C597

    No matter how much you try to claim sole credit for civilization, you can’t change the facts of life.

    Property is a male social construct.

    I am full-fledged human being with a soul and God-given rights. You, on the other hand, are a psychopath. I have always been very curious about your kind. How did you come to be? Were you born that way? Will God ever have mercy on your soul?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  242. Rosie says:
    @silviosilver

    Yeah, a distinct minority of women favor an absolute right to abortion by about three whole percentage points or so more than a distinct minority of men. That’s a slam dunk argument against women if I’ve ever see one!

    My guess is that much of that difference is a function of the fact that women are painfully aware of the fact that all but the most brutal rapes are very difficult to prove, simply because there are usually no witnesses, and men are entitled to a presumption of innocence until they are proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course, that is as it should be.

    There is a great deal of fake news circulating right now about false rape allegations. I’m sure it happens. People sometimes use legal processes to get back at their enemies in ways that are abusive. I believe one of these deranged psychopaths claimed above that college women ruin “a few men” with false rape allegations. This is absolutely hysterical nonsense. It is virtually impossible to prove rape even under the more relaxed burden of proof college disciplinary boards use. Again, I’m not complaining about this. I’m just saying that some women may believe it is impractical to expect a rape victim who might want an abortion to be able to prove that she was raped.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/college/2017/05/11/study-89-of-colleges-reported-zero-campus-rapes-in-2015/37431949/

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  243. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Married middle class fathers are naturally extreme cheapskates and would be happy with hand me downs and used stuff from yard sales if they controlled consumer spending.

    That must explain all the men I always see bargain-hunting at yard sales. Anyway, yard sales are increasingly rare these days. Clothes are so cheap now, you can’t give them away, and I’m not kidding.

  244. @Rosie

    “Fake news circulating about false rape allegations”?

    What about the Brett Kavanaugh false rape allegations? That’s probably the most famous false rape allegation in this century to date. False rape allegations have become so notorious that people have stopped caring about them and dismiss them as complete garbage now (besides some cucks and white knights, unfortunately).

  245. @Rosie

    Marriage is a binding legal contract with real world consequences. Are you just dumb or what else? Only a woman can believe that getting legally married has no legal consequences at all …

    To date I’ve never actually said that “women should be relegated to forced prostitution”. Then again, what do you exactly even consider to be forced prostitution?

    My take is that women should either be mothers or prostitutes. That’s literally the only two things they are really good at in the overwhelming majority of scenarios. In a small subset of cases, like only a few percentage points, if some woman happens to show some rare talent at something, then exceptions can be made. Otherwise motherhood and prostitution must be the norm for women. More motherhood than prostitution is ideal, of course. Some women going into prostitutes would be necessary to allow a percentage of the population with irresistible degenerate impulses to vent them.

    I’ll interpret your perspective such that:
    “forced prostitution” = women being the private property of men.

    That’s far fetched and an incorrect interpretation. Pets are the private property of their owners. Children are the property of their parents until they reach legal age. None of those things are “forced prostitution”. Of course, “forced prostitution” in those contexts would be completely inappropriate, or any other form of sexual relations for that matter.

    Women being the private property of men is a completely healthy and natural phenomenon of human history that has existed for thousands of years. You also seem to believe that is slavery as well.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  246. @Rosie

    “You are a reject and a misfit with no stake in the future”. Lol ok. I’d much rather be that than some dumb cuck who believes the garbage a woman like you babbles out.

    “you disgrace the dissident right with no concern whatsoever for the optics”. Regarding the Woman question, it’s much better to educate men to not be complete cucks like they are taught to be in the mainstream. Optics are something that one must defer to as much as someone can also completely change optic standards.

    As for securing “the existence of a future for white children” it’s good to hear that you have 6 European/white kids. Giving birth to them and raising them is literally your life purpose. It’s good to know you’ve at least done something good besides being a retard. Maybe you should go have a few more instead of talking rubbish.

    As for “You (and all your friends) need to go”, don’t worry, i’m already working on leaving the Anglosphere and returning to my country of origin anyway.

  247. @Rosie

    There are too many Indians on this planet anyway. The less of them, the better. India’s overpopulation issue, just like Africa, is unique and bizarre in the world. Also applies to Africans as well, the less of them the better. They are literally waging demographic war against the whole planet. The less of them there are, the more secure the existence of my own kind is, and that they won’t replace me out of existence.

    The fact that you’re so moved by the plight of poor brown women shows just how much being a woman matters for you more than anything else. What’s happening in rural India is only proof of my argument and point. People in India correctly recognize that women are extremely useless at much of anything besides motherhood and prostitution. They understand that overall, men are superior forms of life. The Chinese also understood and understand this quite well (Unfortunately there are some naive cucks among them as well). Your video and whinging prove nothing beyond the fact that i’m correct.

  248. @silviosilver

    Well as far as your question, “If I might put a question to you, generally speaking, in any sphere of human activity, who would you prefer to have making the decisions: an intelligent woman or an unintelligent man?” goes, it really depends on the context.

    My answer is context, because in some cases it is absolutely appropriate for the unintelligent man to make decisions while unfortunately in some cases the degraded abilities of a man make it necessary for women to make a decision.

  249. @silviosilver

    The point of women being biologically inferior was only one part of the argument about why educating women, especially with college and university, is horrible. The other part was that college and university are places where women are “liberated” to be completely promiscuous without any social restraint at all. Even encouraged in many cases. All men know that this is true, at least on an unconscious level, which is why nobody has countered my true statement that university and college are places where women can be promiscuous without any social consequences in most cases.

    As for that just being a “tirade”, and apparently a sign that i have “a lot you want to get off your chest”, I gave some very good knowledge there on how to save most men who currently live in the west from being completely psychologically castrated and whipped cuckolds. In fact, it actually counts for men worldwide, but besides a few rare scenarios, on average, overall, men in the west are literally the most cucked men that exist on the planet.

    As for “Try to think through the implications of that line of reasoning being applied more broadly – does it still seem like such a great idea?”, i assume you mean if it was supposedly applied to a scenario where men were denied education by say, a matriarchy of women that ruled everything? Or something like that?

  250. All men know that this is true, at least on an unconscious level, which is why nobody has countered my true statement that university and college are places where women can be promiscuous without any social consequences in most cases.

    It’s well understood that western women (at least) have had the right to be promiscuous without fear of any serious social censure for a good few decades now, so of course no one’s going to bother countering your saying so. And women certainly don’t have to go to college to be promiscuous, so that has very little to do with anything.

    What I will challenge, however, is your assertion that because women can be promiscuous in college, that education should therefore be denied to them.

    As much as I hate conceding feminist types anything, I have to agree with them that some men are really threatened by the existence of what feminists describe as “strong women” – and what I would simply call “hardcore sluts.” I can’t see any reason you’d be so disturbed by promiscuity that you see the only escape from it to make women property.

    These hardcore sluts are often a vulgar, repulsive sight. Just this weekend I was standing near one at bar and could overhear her claiming that “I’ve rejected four penises in the last week! I’ve got nothing against penises, but I just need a break from penises!” As cringey as it was to listen to that, there was little point berating the dumb, drunk slut. Oftentimes the said slut is a pathetic creature – hardly “strong” – who desperately desires a guy to love her, despairs that no guy will, and yet can’t make the connection in her mind between that refusal and her sexual comportment.

    Still, I would prefer to live in a world which gives women the freedom to be so vulgarly slutty than a world in which all the men at the bar would have summarily stoned her. Liberty sometimes requires us to grin and bear it – it’s not all sweetness and light.

    i assume you mean if it was supposedly applied to a scenario where men were denied education by say, a matriarchy of women that ruled everything? Or something like that?

    Well, male and female aren’t the only two classes humans can be sorted into. If inferiority/superiority according to some metric can be a basis on which to permit or restrict access to education (or whatever else), is that a world you’d really want to live in? If you knew that on some occasions you yourself would form part of the inferior group? Come on man.

    i’m already working on leaving the Anglosphere and returning to my country of origin anyway.

    That probably won’t help as much as you think. The same trends are present there, even if their effects are still a little more muted at the common street level. (Eg just google something like “uloga zena u…” and you’ll see the same pseudoscientific sociological guff come up as in the west.)

  251. dfordoom says: • Website
    @silviosilver

    Women’s political participation was never based on the argument that they would improve “the overall quality of the political class.”

    That’s not really true. I’ve seen countless instances of feminists using the “women leaders will be more moral” and “women leaders won’t start wars” and “women leaders will promote fairness” arguments. I’ve seen those arguments advanced on this very site.

    I’ve also seen instances of feminists using the “women CEOs will be more moral and will make corporations more moral” arguments.

  252. Mr. XYZ says:

    So it’s entirely possible that Sweden et al. will be just fine in the long term. It’s the smart fractions that overwhelmingly determine socio-economic success, and that smart fraction would appear to be quite vigorous. Moreover, while it does get a lot of Third World refuse, this may well be counterbalanced by its hovering up of human capital across the Mediterranean and East-Central Europe (along with the Anglo-Germanics).

    Would that mean that if too many smart Sub-Saharan Africans will move to the West, then Sub-Saharan Africa wouldn’t even be able to converge to Brazil’s GDP per capita level?

  253. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Cicerone

    So, basically Whites and Asians at the top, then Middle Easterners, then Hispanics/Latinos, and then Blacks.

    This doesn’t exactly bode well for the success of Hispanic-majority and Black-majority countries.

  254. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Both young men and women who are fundamentalist Christians are indoctrinated. I never said just women were. But they’re indoctrinated in beliefs that are considered by the wider, secular, mainstream culture as patriarchal and sexist.

    Yes, I’m familiar with the difference between Catholics and Protestants regarding works and faith. But we’re talking about how people actually behave here. People who are indoctrinated in fundamentalist Christianity and adhere to its strictures are generally going to behave in certain traditional, socially conservative ways and conform to traditional gender roles. They’re generally not going to plan on living in sin and then getting saved right before they die. And having such a plan in the first place would raise questions about the sincerity of one’s faith and thus the possibility of one’s eternal salvation.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  255. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Dmitry

    The friends I stay with in Israel, for example, are still planning to emigrate to Canada, and anger about unfair positive discrimination for Arabs in all sectors, as well as general too large Middle Eastern population (e.g. Moroccan Jews can be annoying neighbours), and too many religious Jews (Haredim), is one of the motivations which is causing educated secular people in Israel to want to emigrate from there to Canada.

    Why Canada and not the US?

    Also, right-wing Israelis should be quite happy that left-wing Israelis are emigrating since this would mean a more right-wing Israel. Of course, the smart right-wing Israelis should also follow Yoram Hazony’s lead and have lots and lots of children (with Hazony himself having a whopping nine children).

  256. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Yes, and if some fish way back when didn’t move onto land, we wouldn’t be here, so I guess fish are also responsible for property rights…

    Property is a male social construct, created by individual and gangs of men fighting and defending against each other. You can talk about the soul and God till the cows come home, but this is what it boils down to.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  257. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    No, it doesn’t mean women should be denied property rights. It simply reveals the true origin and nature of property rights from the various obfuscations that are employed to hide it.

    Different societies can have different responses to this fact.

    Feudal organization made the nature of property more evident because the sovereign would grant property to military men who would furnish defense and provide property rights as a result. Contemporary society is so far removed from that today that people just assume property rights magically exist as some inviolate, sacred thing.

    Some societies may respond by militarizing their women as much as possible and make them participate in active military responsibilities in order to justify their enjoyment of equal property rights. Others may take a more sexist approach.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  258. @dfordoom

    Oh for sure, you hear plenty of that crap nowadays – ie since women’s political rights have been secured. But those were not the arguments that originally convinced men to grant women political equality, nor are they the arguments that keep men believing that that political equality remains a good idea.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Rosie
  259. @Anonymous

    I’m not sure what purpose is served by being so cryptic. Can’t you just spell it out? Just imagine everyone agrees with you and openly acknowledges what created and preserves property rights. For women’s rights this implies _____________ (fill in the blank).

  260. @silviosilver

    You claim that I personally feel threatened by “empowered women” or hardcore sluts. Wrong. Those women are actually completely worthless and serve as nothing more than easy material for men to stick their penises into. I only see that allowing hardcore sluts to get away with their behavior in society without any consequences, and have their behavior even be actively encouraged is a mortal danger to any society or civilization. Women behaving in a sexually unrestrained manner is a death wish for any civilization, nation or people.

    Well, i guess i would prefer to live in a world where that woman would have been summarily stoned if she publicly bragged about taking in several penises. That’s how things are in Saudi Arabia. Life in Saudi Arabia regarding other quality of life aspects is also high enough.

    “If inferiority/superiority according to some metric can be a basis on which to permit or restrict access to education (or whatever else), is that a world you’d really want to live in? If you knew that on some occasions you yourself would form part of the inferior group? Come on man.”

    I find this assertion of yours to be the most interesting and important one to address. The real world is such that different groups of people are always superior and have power over another. Power dynamics and power balances are always constantly in flux. Equality is a lie and an illusion. Basically, as noble of an ideal Egalitarianism is, it’s a lie that simply fills people with false hopes. I don’t think it should be necessary to go into everything that’s wrong with stating human beings are “inherently born free and equal”, do I?

    A state of equilibrium or power balance rarely exists for any lengthy moment in nature. Whether you like it or not, one group of people will always exercise power over another. If that involves taking away their access to education or whatever else, than that is exactly what happens. Nobody disputes that they wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of something like that (in most cases, in some cases both groups are completely fine with it and desire the relationship). A scenario where women are private property of men, would on average as a collective, actually make women much happier and better off than the way they are right now with their supposed “empowerment”. Women are happiest when making children and taking care of them in the conditions most ideal to that. You can ask Rosie whether she’s happier giving birth to, and raising children, or whether she would be happier running around having casual sex with tens and hundreds of men in her youth so she could become a childless, single, sterile, old whore. That is, if you don’t believe me.

    Also, you should tell Anatoly Karlin that he never should’ve bothered moving back to Russia because there are a bunch of Feminists and Liberals there. I’m completely aware that Feminists and Liberals exist everywhere in the world.

  261. @dfordoom

    By the way, I should add, even though I’ve been siding with Rosie in this thread, there are limits to my patience. If too few women take an open and angry stand against 21st century lunatic femmcunts, I will conclude that women have proven unworthy of being granted political equality and I will reluctantly side with the misogynists and work to deprive women of it.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  262. Equality is a lie and an illusion.

    Thanks for breaking that devastating news to me. I had no idea.

    Look, obviously people are inherently unequal. But that fact in and of itself tells us next to nothing about how we should treat those inferior to us (or attempt to relate to those superior to us). Those decisions can only come from reflecting on the issue and discussing our conclusions with others. You can hardly claim that the knowledge that some person or some group is inferior/superior to you automatically equips you with the precise behavioral disposition towards those people/groups.

    Whether you like it or not, one group of people will always exercise power over another.

    The question is whether they exercise that power justly or unjustly. I claim that denying women the right to be educated based on some minute, almost non-existent difference in average intelligence is manifestly unjust. (It would also be manifestly unjust for whites to deny the blacks under their care a right to an education even on the basis of the substantial intelligence difference between the two groups.)

    Also, you should tell Anatoly Karlin that he never should’ve bothered moving back to Russia because there are a bunch of Feminists and Liberals there. I’m completely aware that Feminists and Liberals exist everywhere in the world.

    I’m not telling you what to do. You can do as you please. I just have my doubts that you’ll be as pleased as you seem to expect to be with what you’ll find there. Much of that depends on whether you grew up there, or else your facility with the language and familiarity with the local folkways, etc. (Did I have it right that you’re Serbian? I think I read a post of yours in which you said you are.)

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  263. @silviosilver

    Thanks for breaking that devastating news to me. I had no idea.

    Look, obviously people are inherently unequal. But that fact in and of itself tells us next to nothing about how we should treat those inferior to us (or attempt to relate to those superior to us). Those decisions can only come from reflecting on the issue and discussing our conclusions with others. You can hardly claim that the knowledge that some person or some group is inferior/superior to you automatically equips you with the precise behavioral disposition towards those people/groups.

    This response is meaningless and it doesn’t argue anything. It’s bland. It doesn’t say much of anything. Perhaps maybe you should be more direct. As a side-note, it took me way too long to realize how to block quote, but better late than never.

    The question is whether they exercise that power justly or unjustly. I claim that denying women the right to be educated based on some minute, almost non-existent difference in average intelligence is manifestly unjust. (It would also be manifestly unjust for whites to deny the blacks under their care a right to an education even on the basis of the substantial intelligence difference between the two groups.)

    Your argument is that women deserve education because they have near equal average intelligence to men. Well, my arguments about denying them education don’t have to do with that reason, but other reasons instead. My argument is that educating women is disastrous for any society because educating women causes them to delay family formation and women do not make economic contributions of high value (inferior to those of men anyway). There are other things which are much more problematic than educating women of course, but educating women is still a part of the problem.

    I’m not telling you what to do. You can do as you please. I just have my doubts that you’ll be as pleased as you seem to expect to be with what you’ll find there. Much of that depends on whether you grew up there, or else your facility with the language and familiarity with the local folkways, etc. (Did I have it right that you’re Serbian? I think I read a post of yours in which you said you are.)

    You can check peoples’ post and comment history by clicking their name tag to get a full list of their comment history (not an @nametag because then you just go their previous written comment only in the same thread).

    I have no illusions about anything. Don’t worry about me. My biggest life problem is money and income. I’m doing completely fine as far as everything else is concerned.

  264. @silviosilver

    Would like to hear about that well.

    To be frank I haven’t been following this conversation as it doesn’t interest me. My comments policy is open to peruse – https://akarlin.com/comments/
    If somebody breaks a policy, then I might moderate them. I didn’t see any rule-breaking.

    I am generally for equity feminism and strongly against gender feminism.

    Mr. Karlin, is advocating or the enslavement of groups of human beings kosher on this site?

    Well one of our most powerful commenters Thorfinnsson has eloquently argued for reinstating slavery so I guess that’s the answer.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  265. Rosie says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I’ll interpret your perspective such that:
    “forced prostitution” = women being the private property of men.

    That’s far fetched and an incorrect interpretation.

    Lol.

    Women being the private property of men is a completely healthy and natural phenomenon of human history that has existed for thousands of years. You also seem to believe that is slavery as well.

    Lolol.

    Children are the property of their parents until they reach legal age.

    It looks like someone doesn’t understand the difference between ownership and guardianship.

  266. Rosie says:
    @silviosilver

    It’s well understood that western women (at least) have had the right to be promiscuous without fear of any serious social censure for a good few decades now, so of course no one’s going to bother countering your saying so. And women certainly don’t have to go to college to be promiscuous, so that has very little to do with anything.

    I see no reason to censure women for “being sluts” when men demand premarital sex as a condition of continued courtship.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513814001391

  267. Rosie says:
    @silviosilver

    . If too few women take an open and angry stand against 21st century lunatic femmcunts, I will conclude that women have proven unworthy of being granted political equality and I will reluctantly side with the misogynists and work to deprive women of it.

    What do you suggest we do. The radicals have billionaire backing to support their radical activism. Conservative women have nothing. Find me a billionaire financier and I’ll get right on that.

  268. Rosie says:
    @silviosilver

    Oh for sure, you hear plenty of that crap nowadays – ie since women’s political rights have been secured. But those were not the arguments that originally convinced men to grant women political equality, nor are they the arguments that keep men believing that that political equality remains a good idea.

    Doom is referring to arguments that I have made, chiefly for rhetorical purposes. It is widespread in the dissident right to use slight statistical disparities to justify wholesale abrogation of women’s rights, as you see in this thread with respect to IQ.

    My point is simply that if it is good for the gender, it’s also good for goose. It is simply a fact that men are more likely to be psychopathic criminals than women. They are more likely to be involved in White collar crime. Therefore, if one was so inclined, one could argue that corporate boards ought to be gender-balanced.

    I’m not saying I support this policy. I’m merely noting that statistical disparities either have policy implications or they do not. We’re not going to play this game where statistical disparities that favor men have policy implications (justifying discrimination) while statistical disparities that favor women do not.

    It was very careless (if not dishonest) of Doom to ignore this context.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  269. Rosie says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Well one of our most powerful commenters Thorfinnsson has eloquently argued for reinstating slavery so I guess that’s the answer.

    Mr. Karlin, this is why White will be destroyed- dysfunctional and self-defeating adherence to principle. If you refuse to do what works, you will take your principles with you into the dustbin of history.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  270. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Both young men and women who are fundamentalist Christians are indoctrinated. I never said just women were. But they’re indoctrinated in beliefs that are considered by the wider, secular, mainstream culture as patriarchal and sexist.

    So it sounds like you are conceding that neither men nor women are the problem, but rather the moral culture created by elites, and it is not necessarily true that educated women will avoid or postpone commitment. Good.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  271. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Yes, and if some fish way back when didn’t move onto land, we wouldn’t be here, so I guess fish are also responsible for property rights…

    Women = fish

    https://www.aconsciousrethink.com/4361/dehumanization-mechanism-narcissists-sociopaths-mistreat-others/

  272. Rosie says:
    @silviosilver

    Oh for sure, you hear plenty of that crap nowadays – ie since women’s political rights have been secured. But those were not the arguments that originally convinced men to grant women political equality, nor are they the arguments that keep men believing that that political equality remains a good idea.

    There have traditionally been different (and sometimes mutually exclusive) arguments for woman suffrage. Some have argued that we should vote because we are the same; others have argued that we should vote precisely because we are different (social housekeeping). There is truth in both of these points of view, because of the self-evident fact that we are similar in some ways and different in others.

    I lean toward the complementarian view: women are more empathetic than men, and men are more tough-minded than women. As the ideal household has both mother and father, the ideal polity has a balance of feminine and masculine influences. For example, with only women voting, you would arguably get a welfare state so indulgent that there would be no incentive to work. With only men voting, you would get an unforgiving, sink-or-swim dystopia with children selling their bodies in the street to feed their families.

    With equal rights, we negotiate a healthy balance between collective and personal responsibility, mercy and justice, etc. I maintain that the imbalances we see today are the result of (((media))) manipulation, not political equality. That does not mean, as Doom insinuates, that I think women are “morally superior” to men. That is a shameless straw man, par for the course.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  273. Rosie says:

    Dear White Men:

    I’m getting really tired of being solely responsible for fighting off these trolls. Many thanks to silviosilver for stepping up here, and to Mr. Karlin for at least expressing his support for basic human rights for women. Still, it’s not enough. On the whole, Talha the Muslim and AaronB the Jew have pushed back against the misogyny more than the rest of you combined. I can’t make you care about the future of your people. People who LARP about disenfranchising or even enslaving women are just giving themselves an excuse to do nothing and wasting my time and yours as well as their own.

    You will be called “cuck” and “White knight,” but I promise you will survive with your male ego mostly intact. It will be good practice for you to learn how to laugh it off when (((someone))) calls you a mean name. This is direly important to your survival, as we wouldn’t be in this situation if you were capable of responding to the “racist” epithet with a full-throated “f*** you.” Please, do it for the (White) children.

    I have other things to do. My homeschooled children and I have a big year planned for the fall. I plan to scale back my time here significantly, even though I feel like all my maternal efforts are for naught if my children have to live in a hostile with no identity group to resist violence and discrimination against them. Most moms can just focus on their own duties without worrying about the larger forces that will determine their children’s fate, though their fears may haunt them as they lay awake at night. I cannot do this, for good or ill.

    For a time, I thought maybe some of you just needed some guidance on how to respond to misogynist sophistry, but I have provided that and still there is silence. I must conclude that it is either cowardice or callousness that keeps you from speaking.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @AP
    , @Anon
  274. @silviosilver

    Really? That is indeed strange to hear, and certainly not what one would expect given the news which arrives about your country’s political disposition. How do the PC brigades square free speech absolutism with their PC values?

    It’s less that they approve of it — they still do their best to police the open (non-anonymous) public conversation — and more that they have accepted the idea of a forum with near-total anonymity and freedom of speech. It helps, I think, that practically all Swedish media types read it, and sometimes even comment themselves, and that it has lots of rather “normie” subforums.

    Here is a rough translation of its Swedish Wikipedia page (lightly edited):

    Flashback Forum is a Swedish internet forum and one of Sweden’s most-trafficked web sites. It covers a broad range of topics, including everyday ones such as personal finance, cars and sports, as well as drug usage, prostitution and mental illness. The forum is moderated but allows discussions on nearly anything. Freedom of speech is a central concept in the forum rules.

    Flashback often receives mention in mainstream media for its members’ citizen journalism. In 2009, it was nominated for the journalism award Guldspaden [1], and in 2011, it won Sveriges Radio’s [2] Journalism Prize after its members uncovered that nature photographer Terje Hellesø had manipulated some of his photographs [3].

    […]

    Flashback has 1.2 million members and sees nearly 20,000 daily comments (2010). It’s one of Sweden’s most-visited web sites and gets between 1,6 and 2,2 million unique weekly visitors (2010). In the Swedes and the Internet survey of 2018, 32% of internet users responded that they visit the the site more or less regularly and 1% that they use the site daily.

    […]

    In Medieakademin’s confidence survey [4] of 2019, 7% of the Swedish public had great or fairly great confidence in Flashback Forum, the same as Facebook (7%) but higher than Twitter (5%).

    [1] Sweden’s counterpart to the Purlitzer Prize
    [2] Sweden’s counterpart to BBC Radio
    [3] The Swedish Environmental Protection Agency named him Nature Photographer of the Year in 2010, so this was a pretty big deal. The story is hilarious, by the way. Here is Daily Mail reporting on it.
    [4] Yearly confidence barometer that always gets wide press coverage

    That The Swedes and the Internet survey is a terrific source of information, by the way. The graphs are not offered as pictures, alas, so I can’t paste them here. But if you click the link, you will see very thorough data on how Swedes use social media. The graph above “Messenger populärast – övriga Facebook-aktiviteter minskar,” for instance, shows that Swedish Facebook engagement is in sharp decline: “Writes own posts” (“Skriver egna inlägg”) and “Shares others’ posts” (“Delar andras inlägg”) are down 11 and 9 points, respectively, on the 2017 figures.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  275. Dmitry says:
    @silviosilver

    If he (assuming not troll) is an immigrant with bourgeois financial resources, especially if it is by New York standards, and goes to live with middle class Israeli people – he will be fine in terms of his neighbours.

    If he lives in some building in North Tel Aviv, he will probably have old neighbours who talk to him in the corridor, with perfect English grammar, about how they like to go vacation in London, or their opinion about German philosophy.

    But most immigrants to Israel are young people (people 20-30 years old) without money, and really even living in ghetto housing will cost most of their income.

    My friends in Israel (which is a recently graduated medical doctor now), live in ghetto housing in Bat Yam.

    I was in Bat Yam last year for my vacation. I had an informative day with my luggage, waiting in Bat Yam mall.

    If you want to know the Israeli “base population”, you need to spend a Friday in Bat Yam mall. My impression is that somehow all the “gopniks” of Iraq, Lebanon, Morocco, Syria, Ethiopia and Egypt, have been dropped onto Bat Yam mall on Friday.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @silviosilver
  276. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    If you want to know the Israeli “base population”, you need to spend a Friday in Bat Yam mall. My impression is that somehow all the “gopniks” of Iraq, Lebanon, Morocco, Syria, Ethiopia and Egypt, have been dropped onto Bat Yam mall on Friday.


    I found a video of this mall and even tables where I was sitting with my luggage – at 2:00 in video.

    Lol this cheap, Bat Yam mall with all these noisy brown kids with gold chains around their neck. That’s “real Israel” demographics.

  277. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB

    decided where I am moving

    If you want to live in the city, and have more financing, then I would go to live somewhere along the Northern part of Dizengoff Street.

    Atmosphere is so nice there in the evening. It combines very social, and yet quiet and civilized.

    Only problem in the area, is there is some kind of restriction to build new skyscrapers, and all the old buildings there are in very bad condition. (So it would be expensive, even for an apartment in a collapsing building, although the area itself is very nice).

    settling in a small town in the green north or the Golan, or maybe the West Bank.

    Settling in small town is not a bad idea. But why such periphery places, if you are not poor?

    Anywhere along the coast from Kfar Shmaryahu to Caesarea and even a bit more North, is full of beautiful little villages and “moshavs”, with a very rural atmosphere.

    When we were driving up this road, there are a lot of trackers and farmer all over the place.

    Any of these little towns like Kfar Vitkin – it has a very agricultural atmosphere, while at the same time being convenient location and high quality road to the city.

    But if you drive a bit further North already to Pardes Hanna or Zikhron Yaakov – you will be living surrounded by more Arabs than you ever saw in your life though.

    We stopped in mall in quite near around here, and everyone was Arab there (even all workers in mall).

    So it depends on your view of living in areas with a lot Arabs, if you want to even so far North as even Caesarea.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  278. @Rosie

    I’m merely noting that statistical disparities either have policy implications or they do not. We’re not going to play this game where statistical disparities that favor men have policy implications (justifying discrimination) while statistical disparities that favor women do not.

    An excellent point. I wish I’d thought of it myself.

  279. @Rosie

    Calm down. I don’t think this site is quite that important that its penetration by know-all blowhards like Thorfinnsson is going to doom the project of white political empowerment.

    My guess is that Karlin, like me, long ago became inured to the kind of lunacies you routinely come across on ‘red pill’ sites. Some ideas are just so self-evidently nutty that they’re self-refuting, so no one bothers to censure or censor them.

    I’m not sure the people advancing these nutty ideas are even all that nutty as people. I think it’s a symptom of the ‘conversion syndrome’ people often experience after taking the red pill. So much of what they previously accepted as gospel has now been shown to be illusory or fallacious that their minds are not quite sure of what to make of it all. Ideas that previously would have struck them as absurd all of a sudden seem at least plausible – and even attractive – and they feel like talking about it, hence they post.

  280. @Dmitry

    But most immigrants to Israel are young people (people 20-30 years old) without money, and really even living in ghetto housing will cost most of their income.

    Don’t they try to settle in areas containing people of their own cultural backgrounds though? (As in Americans seeking out Americans – or at least anglophones – and French seeking out Francophones, Russians other Russians etc?)

    I watched a documentary about these orthodox American kids who were gonna do a year in Israel after high school. The idea of the documentary was to follow these kids who have rejected their religious tradition – eg a clip of one girl catches “I don’t need god, fuck god” or something like that – but are willing to give it one last try in Israel to see if they get anything out of it. By the end of it, that “fuck god” girl is married, has a kid, and has gone full religious zionist (ie including their distinctive clothes) and I think they were living in a settlement. Pretty big change lol. Anyway, my point was that all the time they were in Israel there seemed to be no end of other Americans they were spending time around. It seemed to me like it was possible to live in an environment like that where, if you didn’t want to, you’d hardly even have to interact with actual Israelis.

    That Bat Yam mall video didn’t look all that bad actually. The bodybuilder guy in it was a goofball but aside from that I didn’t see anything really outrageous. I’ve seen way, way, waaaaay worse behavior than that from Arabs in the mall in Australia, I promise you.

    By the way, have you heard of this Ashkenazi Israeli philosopher who, I gather, is somewhat notorious for his anti-Mizrahi (maybe anti-sephardi too) political views? I watched a documentary on him once but I can’t find it and I can’t remember his name. He is politically very leftist and accuses mideast Jews of fucking up Israel’s potential to be a nordic-like social democracy, and claims that Israel was made for people like him, not people like them and that they should never have been allowed to settle.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  281. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    So it sounds like you are conceding that neither men nor women are the problem, but rather the moral culture created by elites, and it is not necessarily true that educated women will avoid or postpone commitment. Good.

    A lot of higher “education” today is just LARPing. That’s especially the case for young women who are practicing fundamentalist Christians and whose life goals are to get married and have children at a young age. They go to college, and many of these universities exist in the first place, because they’re conforming to a degree to the wider, mainstream secular society, which they’re not completely immune to. If higher education in general, and for women in particular, were not a social norm and expectation in the wider society, there’d be much less pressure and demand for young women primarily interested in getting married and having kids at a young age to go to college.

    The “moral culture” we’re talking about here is one that you’ve regularly expressed opposition towards, so I’m not sure why you’re citing it as a positive or point in your favor here. These young women are indoctrinated to support and believe “sexist” and “patriarchal” ways under the threat of eternal hellfire. Sounds like misogyny to me, and psychological abuse and terrorism.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  282. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    Thanks for the advice, those are all attractive locations, but at this point in my life I am looking for something rather away from the glitter and bustle of the big city – the opposite of you 🙂

    I am aiming for a more secluded and spiritual experience. I still enjoy the big city occasionally, but wherever I am that is never too far away.

    The West Bank is attractive because of the vast, dramatic, and hilly landscape, and sense of enormous space – and the classic Biblical look of the place. Many places there are also close to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

    The North has a more European feel, and possibly a better climate. And the rugged desert has a romantic poetry all its own that I find very appealing.

    So I don’t know yet.

    As for those Israeli gopniks, they really aren’t that bad at all! New York has way worse.

    And Israel needs a rough physical element – can’t be all head without body.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  283. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    I lean toward the complementarian view: women are more empathetic than men, and men are more tough-minded than women. As the ideal household has both mother and father, the ideal polity has a balance of feminine and masculine influences. For example, with only women voting, you would arguably get a welfare state so indulgent that there would be no incentive to work. With only men voting, you would get an unforgiving, sink-or-swim dystopia with children selling their bodies in the street to feed their families.

    This is a distortion of suffrage and politics in general. You’ve reduced politics to fighting over government spoils.

    Suffrage is simply a peaceable substitute for force and war. The entire reason we vote is so we don’t have to go to war with each other every 4 years. Voting is a substitute – you count who outnumbers whom and has more group force and would hypothetically win a war and thus go through the vote instead of the trouble and mess of an actual war. Generally, women are not instruments of force and war, and in any serious conflict would prefer to sit on the sidelines and go with the winners anyway.

    The reason property holding males could only vote originally was because in feudal times, property was land, and land was granted to men who could and would provide military power and force in war and lead men and arms into battle.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Logan
  284. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    The “moral culture” we’re talking about here is one that you’ve regularly expressed opposition towards

    I’m so tired of your lies. Objecting to double standards that recognize Male fallibility but expect perfection from women is not opposition to “moral culture” you insufferable jackass.

    These young women are indoctrinated to support and believe “sexist” and “patriarchal” ways under the threat of eternal hellfire. Sounds like misogyny to me, and psychological abuse and terrorism.

    It would indeed be psychological abuse is they were threatened with hellfire for being human. Fortunately, that’s not the case you lying sack of shit. The whole point of the Gospel is that you don’t go to hell for being a sinner.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  285. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Suffrage is simply a peaceable substitute for force and war. The entire reason we vote is so we don’t have to go to war with each other every 4 years. Voting is a substitute – you count who outnumbers whom and has more group force and would hypothetically win a war and thus go through the vote instead of the trouble and mess of an actual war.

    Fuck off, Jew. I don’t buy your pilpul and just-so semantics.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  286. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    I’m so tired of your lies. Objecting to double standards that recognize Male fallibility but expect perfection from women is not opposition to “moral culture” you insufferable jackass.

    Fundamentalist Christians have a culture that promotes traditional gender roles, do they not? This culture is regarded as sexist and patriarchal by mainstream secular society. You have frequently voiced your disapproval of this sort of traditional culture on feminist grounds.

    It would indeed be psychological abuse is they were threatened with hellfire for being human. Fortunately, that’s not the case you lying sack of shit. The whole point of the Gospel is that you don’t go to hell for being a sinner.

    We’re talking about fundamentalist and orthodox Protestant Christians, who are Biblical literalists and believe in things like hell. Not liberal Protestants, who are just as or even more liberal than mainstream secular society and who often turn into non-practicing agnostics or full fledged atheists.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  287. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    I didn’t even know what ‘pilpul’ means. Had to look it up.

    You want to promote a fairy tale explanation for the origin and nature of voting and politics because your vision can’t be justified under a proper understanding of them.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  288. Dmitry says:
    @silviosilver

    Americans seeking out Americans

    However, Americans are only a small minority of immigrants to Israel.

    Most immigrants to Israel currently, are arriving from Russia, Ukraine and France (from France, it’s mainly Jewish-Moroccans immigrating to Israel).

    For example, in 2018 – Israel receives 28,000 new citizens through “Law of Return”. 78,2% were from Russian/Ukraine/Europe. 15.3% were from North/Central/South America. 5.2% from Asia and Oceania, and 1,3% from Africa.

    if you didn’t want to, you’d hardly even have to interact with actual Israelis.

    If you visit new residential skyscrapers they are building in Israel, where the apartments cost $5 million – a large proportion of residents seem to be American youth (speaking English loudly, with small dogs and sunglasses). I doubt they interact with locals much.

    Bat Yam mall video didn’t look all that bad actually. The bodybuilder guy in it was a goofball but aside from that I didn’t see anything really outrageous. I’ve seen way, way, waaaaay worse behavior than that from Arabs in the mall in Australia, I promise you.

    Behaviour of Israeli masses, is not that terrible.

    But they are really cattle.

    It’s hilarious when you read about Jewish conspiracy on this website, of the elite controlling the world, and then compare them to actual Jews of the real world, who are buying cheap cigarettes and g-strings in the mall, while their children are in McDonald’s throwing fries at each other.

    mideast Jews of fucking up Israel’s potential to be a nordic-like social democracy,

    Anywhere you go to periphery of Israel (and also secular West Bank) – the population are mostly peasants or proletariat, because the reason they go there is it’s cheap.


    This is what it is like in any periphery cities of Israel.

    E.g. the Jewish kids of the largest Israeli settlement in the West Bank (Maale Adumim)

    (This lumpenproletariat are the future Netanyahu voters)

    Or youth up in Karmiel (but in Karmiel it’s already less proletarian than Maale Adumim)

    And like that as 12 years old already

  289. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB

    the big city

    Well, in Israel there is no big city.

    In Dizengoff, you still feel like you are in a small university city – with a beach.

    I am aiming for a more secluded and spiritual experience.

    Yes, but all between Kfar Shmaryahu to Caesarea, it’s full of little villages that feel secluded.

    But it’s also still a habitable place, with middle class neighbours, convenient highway, and access to both sides of the country.

    If you go to live in periphery, it’s far less convenient to access other parts of periphery. But if you can live in e.g. Kfar Shmaryahu, you are right next to the highway to go to Negev. And you are right next to the highway if you drive the other direction, and arrive to the Sea of Galilee in an hour and a half. (The highway North is really fast and convenient).

    • Replies: @AaronB
  290. @Swedish Family

    I am amazed that I never heard of this site all the time I lived in Sweden. They really do seem to cover every topic possible.

    Would you happen to know of anything else interesting in Swedish (or Danish or Norwegian)?

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  291. @Rosie

    I will answer for myself personally.

    Firstly, this site and our comments here are in the larger sphere of things not really that important and appears to mostly function as a release valve for controversial or unpopular sentiments which would be impossible to state in public without reproach or worse consequences due to their political impotency (independently of how well or not people are doing in their social lives). Normies engage in the same type of whining as we do, the difference is that normie complaints and whining is socially acceptable.

    Secondly, the most important peeve I have in terms of male-female relations (but, due to my young age, not really something I think very much about at the moment) is that women can retire earlier than men in many countries, since I expect men and women to be treated equally. This is the clearest example I can think of numerous minor but cumulative experiences where the previous social behavioural expectations of women have dissolved in modernity whereas there still exists to a degree the traditional expectation of male chivalry. Though this varies from country to country, it still annoys me.

    Thirdly, for whatever reason American women do indeed seem to be more liberal than American men, as evidenced by their voting patterns. I don’t really think those kinds of unhealthy social dynamics are a problem in Europe (I remember posting a couple of polls on the lack of American-style gender gulfs in the UK and France), but it does mean your (American) opponents have at least one valid point (as well as American customs regarding property division and child custody upon divorce).

    Fourthly, I long ago tired of listening to men complain about women or women complain about men. I also dislike threads filled with repetitive arguments where 80-90% of is just recycled. Most of the comments that turn into arguments about women and feminism seem like they would quietly burn out if you didn’t fan the flames. The commenter Toronto Russian, who seems to be a fellow woman and mother, once suggested just to ignore the commenters and this seems like it would be a better approach for you.

    Lastly, you appear to be somewhat obsessed with this topic and the passive feminine chastising and shirking of responsibility in statements such as these:

    This is direly important to your survival, as we wouldn’t be in this situation if you were capable of responding to the “racist” epithet with a full-throated “f*** you.” Please, do it for the (White) children.

    is kind of annoying.

    Of course, there may not really be any point in writing this reply and it may lack complete coherency, but I am sitting on a train right now and it kept me occupied for a short while.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  292. Logan says:
    @Anonymous

    You are quite right about the origin of suffrage. For instance, Athens only went all-out democratic when the navy and its pleb rowers became as important, or more so, to the state’s defense than the landowning guys who were able to afford the panoply needed to fight in the phalanx.

    Similar things happened with the conflict of the orders in republican Rome, etc.

  293. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    You have frequently voiced your disapproval of this sort of traditional culture on feminist grounds.

    Evangelical Christians do not support forced prostitution. They do not advocate exclusion of women from paid employment. They do not advocate for exclusion of women from higher education. They do not advocate legalized wife-beating.

    The worst you can say about them is that they think a woman should “submit” to her husband, but then they also say that a man is to be a Christ-like “servant leader” of his family.

    That is something entirely different from the outrageous misogyny regularly idealized on this site.

    You are a liar.

    We’re talking about fundamentalist and orthodox Protestant Christians, who are Biblical literalists and believe in things like hell.

    Right, for failure to avail oneself of God’s saving Grace by believing in his Son’s substitutionary atonement. You keep pretending not to understand this.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  294. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    You want to promote a fairy tale explanation for the origin and nature of voting and politics because your vision can’t be justified under a proper understanding of them.

    Oh but it’s you who promote fairy tales about voting. We decided this back in the Enlightenment (linette, egalite, fraternite). The extension of the right to vote was about human dignity, rights, and equality. It wasn’t some sort of gentleman’s agreement to substitute the ballot for warfare.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  295. Rosie says:
    @Hyperborean

    Thank you for taking the time to reply.

    Firstly, this site and our comments here are in the larger sphere of things not really that important and appears to mostly function as a release valve for controversial or unpopular sentiments which would be impossible to state in public

    Group therapy? OK, when do we start doing something serious to secure the existence of our people and a future for Whte children?

    passive feminine chastising and shirking of responsibility

    But I’m told traditional men don’t want women to take the lead in politics.

    Most of the comments that turn into arguments about women and feminism seem like they would quietly burn out if you didn’t fan the flames.

    This is quite unfair. Any flame-fanning going on here is entirely on the part of my obnoxious interlocutors. I don’t know how long you’ve been following the dissident right, but I assure you, ignoring them does not make them go away. Rather, you end up with a horrifying purity spiral where men attempt to out-badass eachother, by, to wit:

    posting images of women in scold’s bridles
    Proposing gang rape for women caught out in public without a Male chaperone
    Proposing the chaining of women to stoves

    Driving off these sadistic psychopaths is your responsibility as men.

    Surely you understand that it is very likely that our (((fellow White people))) egg this on deliberately to sabotage White advocacy.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  296. @Rosie

    Group therapy? OK, when do we start doing something serious to secure the existence of our people and a future for Whte children?

    That is what political parties and real-world organisations are for.

    But I’m told traditional men don’t want women to take the lead in politics.

    I don’t mind it, it is not as if it is unknown in Europe (Marine Le Pen, Pia Kjærsgaard, the various women in the higher ranks of the AfD). Even in Turkey there is Meral Akşener.

    Rather, you end up with a horrifying purity spiral where men attempt to out-badass eachother, by, to wit:

    posting images of women in scold’s bridles
    Proposing gang rape for women caught out in public without a Male chaperone
    Proposing the chaining of women to stoves

    Obviously Andrew Anglin-style “White Sharia” is idiotic, but they are about as relevant as the Paul Kersey guy who fanatically (and only) blogs about black crime.

    So far the most prominent person I am aware of who says similar provocative things is Thorfinnson, who claims to manage a factory, and given that he is a self-admitted promiscuous man and (I doubt) says these things in the real world, I feel confident in being dismissive.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  297. Rosie says:
    @Hyperborean

    That is what political parties and real-world organisations are for.

    At least here in the US, you can’t have a political party until you have a constituency for them to represent. In order to develop a constituency, you need metapolitical outreach. I thought that was the point of alternative media, but apparently it’s just a big pointless circle jerk.

    Obviously Andrew Anglin-style “White Sharia” is idiotic, but they are about as relevant as the Paul Kersey guy who fanatically (and only) blogs about black crime.

    You’re clueless. Just a couple years ago, Anglin-type White Sharia bullshit almost completely took over the whole dissident right. But for yours truly, they would have destroyed it. I’m sick and fucking tired of carrying this whole burden by myself.

    Jews come on these forums and push the boundaries of sanity while they snicker at the stupid goyim and their self-defeating free speech absolutism. I cannot save you people from your stupidity all by myself.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  298. @Rosie

    And here we come to another point – I am not American and generally speaking I wish Europeans, both normies and nationalists, were less obsessed/mentally integrated with the USA.

    So really, if you have problems, then that is for Americans to fix.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  299. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    What I really need to do, in September or October, is go to Israel, rent a car, and thoroughly explore for a month.

    Coastal towns in Israel can be very nice, but a bit too tropical for me. I think I want mountains and hills more, chilly rainy winters, and perhaps a less bourgeois feel.

    There are some small artist colonies in the north that may for the bill.

    What I do like about the coastal scenery are the often dramatic cliffs and bluffs.

    Your remarks on Israeli gopniks are amusing and remind me of the shock and disappointment many Americans and Europeans feel when they visit for the first time.

    Years ago I was hanging out with an American who could not get over the fact that there so many physically imposing Jews in Israel. The American Jews he had known were thin intellectuals, and he had romanticized Israel as this place filled with nerdy intellectuals who managed to win all their wars entirely through the power of nerdy intellectualism. He pointed at an Israel sitting at a table opposite us and exclaimed, “he could be a football player!”.

    Another time, I was hanging out with Czechs who had studied Judaism in university and were interning in Israel for a year. They too were in shock. They had romanticized it as the land of refined intellectuals, when it is one of the most earthy and physical place.

    I, however, appreciate precisely this about the place.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  300. Rosie says:
    @Hyperborean

    So really, if you have problems, then that is for Americans to fix.

    Except that you can’t do anything about Europe until the (((USA))) problem is taken care of. Remember Serbia?

  301. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB

    a less bourgeois feel.

    Culture of all these little towns along highway 2 and between Tel Aviv and Caesarea (like Kfar Vitkin), is very agricultural and redneck.

    But you have highway 2 next to there so you can escape from this nightmare in five minutes

    This is Kfar Vitkin

    a bit further North, background at least does look more dramatic though

    about the coastal scenery are the often dramatic cliffs and bluffs.

    Israel is not the worse place, if you want the terrible or frightening Kantian sublime, as well as to see the “noble savages”.

    However, the best is to live somewhere in the centre, from where you can go to the alien desert landscape, or the hostile Arab villages, or the border with Syria – and then return in the afternoon on the convenient highway.

    Perhaps you like the sublime “desert” – for a time. But when you actually live there, it will seem less sublime to you.

    Similarly, if you like living with Arab “noble savages” – the Arabs will be less exotic after a few weeks.

    Or if you live to look at the exotic Hasidic Jews – well it’s better, if you can go home to a normal place after, or they will soon seem less exotic.

    So, best for most people would be to live near the centre, and probably the corridor between Tel Aviv and Caesarea.

    he had known were thin intellectuals, and he had romanticized Israel as this place filled with nerdy intellectuals

    He will have some kind of mental collapse, or at least ask for a refund for his flight ticket there.

    They had romanticized it as the land of refined intellectuals

    Lol.

    It’s something similar to shock of Japanese tourists who imagine the “civilized English gentlemen”, and they met real English people

  302. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Evangelicals themselves vary from being like fundamentalist, orthodox Protestants with very conservative social views that are regarded as “misogynistic” to being very liberal with feminist and SJW type views.

    There are Dominionists and Christian Reconstructionists who support stoning homosexuals, adulterers, and other sinners, women as being property of fathers or husbands, physical discipline of wives, etc.

  303. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    No, it was decided by the English Civil War, by Cromwell and his New Model Army, against the King and his forces led by loyal feudal Royalists.

    In France, it was decided by the revolutionary mob, then the Committee of Public Safety, and then the French Revolutionary Army against the coalition of monarchical powers.

  304. AP says:
    @Rosie

    I must conclude that it is either cowardice or callousness that keeps you from speaking.

    Perhaps boredom?

    Misogynists are almost all losers anyways. Rather like White Nationalists. Why are you horrified or shocked by the confluence of the two phenomena in the same people?

  305. @Hyperborean

    I am amazed that I never heard of this site all the time I lived in Sweden. They really do seem to cover every topic possible.

    Would you happen to know of anything else interesting in Swedish (or Danish or Norwegian)?

    It depends on what you mean by interesting, but if you read Swedish and wish to keep up to date with Swedish society, the monthly magazine Axess is hard to beat. Its format is something between The Atlantic and New York Review of Books, but with a far more European outlook (many of its book reviews are of yet-to-be-translated books in German, French, Russian, and so on) and a more egghead roster of writers (academics rather than journalists and novelists). Like all great magazines, it’s also very well curated, so after that article you wanted to read — about economic reform in India, say — you will suddenly find yourself reading about forestry in 18th century Norway, or the the role of soap operas in modern Greek culture.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  306. Anon[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    I’m getting really tired of being solely responsible for fighting off these trolls.

    • LOL: Hyperborean
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