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Visegrad & Med Now Safer Than "Core" Europe
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This is according to the latest data by criminologist Matt Ashby.

This is a stunning reversal from a century ago, where contemporary “Core Europe” (Britain, France, Germany, the Low Countries, and Scandinavia) had homicide rates of 1-2/100,000 vs. around 5/100,000 in places like Italy, Finland, Japan, and Russia.

The one good thing about this is that this is making certain political-demographic decisions made by Western Europe over the past few decades much less attractive to East Europeans, thus acting as a counterweight to pro-multicultural propaganda campaigns. Even though they are still poorer, on most beans-counting measures of economic progress, it has simply become nicer to to live there as Western countries falls into dysfunction.

Incidentally, as concerns Russia, I think this is a very true observation by Vile Varangian:

When Russians visit Western Europe, all the 👨🏿 and 🧕 and 🏳️‍🌈 are like a slap to the face that draws attention from everything else. Whereas places like Czechia or Poland seem more like Russia might look like in another decade.

 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Crime, Europe, Homicide 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. Mr. Hack says:

    No wonder that AP is a big proponent for Ukraine becoming a part of the Visegrad group.

  3. When Russians visit Western Europe, all the 👨🏿 and 🧕 and 🏳️‍🌈 are like a slap to the face that draws attention from everything else.

    Hhahahhahh…..

  4. Znzn says:

    Hiring third world crew on cruise ships does not seem to result in them randomly chimping out and attacking guests with meat cleavers very now and then?

    • Replies: @fnn
  5. songbird says:

    Shouldn’t the US have been a model about whom not to import? (I think this is a very interesting question)

    I mean, it seems pretty obvious to me, looking at the various black riots. There were many much earlier than 1967 and 1992. But those two were early enough to avoid a lot of this crap, and with TV footage, besides.

    I know Thomas Sowell used to say something like, at one time whites were more likely to be in jail than blacks. But regardless of the case, I’m sure that there were published statistics from the US for many years telling Europeans this was a bad idea.

    Could Western Europe actually be a better model of what not to do? Maybe, a lot of Europeans don’t understand things like the Great Migration and white flight (because they are never taught them, and not by the US certainly), but I suppose they understand that London and Paris were white at one time. And maybe there are more travelers between the two halves of Europe than there were to America, when flights were more expensive.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    , @West Reanimator
  6. fnn says:
    @Znzn

    Probably much more fun (and less risky) to just engage in clandestine food poisoning.

  7. Beckow says:

    V4 is safer, more pleasant, and a lot more European than Western Europe. Due to currency exchange rates that were set during the dysfunctional late 90’s and early 2000’s the incomes appear to be below Western European incomes. In reality, adjusted for the cost of living they comparable or better than France, Italy or Spain.

    Living standards or wealth are simply what one can consume during their lifetimes. That’s the only real wealth, all else is speculative. The good life in V4 has been building on itself and as with Russians most V4 provincials only need one trip to Brussels, Paris or London to see the real West. I have never met one who didn’t sober up after seeing the miserable infrastructure and dirty multi-cultural cities.

    The problem are the liberal metropolitans who dominate V4 culture and media and are obsessively subservient to their betters in the West. Being invited to a buffet in Brussels is an end-all for them, since their main skills are Pidgin English, knowing how to fill out forms, and brown-nosing. It too shall pass as they either emigrate or are side-tracked by the growing economies.

    That’s why the geo-strategists in the West would like us to have a war with Russia, nothing would marginalize V4 faster and prevent the realignment within Europe. Unfortunately most Poles seem eager to join in. There is no known cure for stupidity.

    • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
  8. Znzn says:
    @songbird

    Why are American whites more violent than European whites? IIRC broken down by race the White homicide rate is still a lot higher than a lot of European countries. And this holds even for states like West Virginia and the Dakotas.

  9. Whereas places like Czechia or Poland seem more like Russia might look like in another decade.

    About fifteen years ago, my impression was that Poland was like Russia would be if it had a shit, shower, and shave. I haven’t been to Poland in a long time, so it would be interesting for me to compare now– not to Moscow, which would be unfair, but to other provincial places with which I’m familiar in Russia.

  10. melanf says:

    Whereas places like Czechia or Poland seem more like Russia might look like in another decade.

    I have not visited Poland, but Prague (according to my tourist observations) is in the same League as St. Petersburg, and is not (in relation to St. Petersburg) the city of the future. This is my impression of a tourist, I did not conduct statistical / sociological, etc. research. The only obvious huge advantage of Prague for tourists is the zoo. If we compare zoos, St. Petersburg is 200 years behind Prague. I have the same impression of Vienna and Budapest.

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    , @Dmitry
  11. songbird says:
    @Znzn

    Well, I don’t know. It’s hard to make comparisons because “white” is a broad category to the FBI and to many police departments.

    If it is so, I would say primarily better tools (guns). Some people think that a diverse society encourages crime in groups that are less prone to crime in a homogeneous setting.

    • Replies: @Znzn
  12. songbird says:

    Doesn’t Portugal look something like Brazil? I thought I heard somewhere that Greece was super-invaded too. (Perhaps with Turks?) There is some black NBA player that was originally an illegal immigrant to Greece.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    , @Agathoklis
  13. I’d be very interested in explanations for the inflection points in the above graphs. For example, the last Greek local maximum is apparently related to the euro-crisis, but what caused the turn around, so that Greece is doing better on this metric than it was before the crisis?

    Also interesting, on the increase in reported crime in the UK:

    http://lesscrime.info/post/crime-pressure/

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  14. The murder rate in Britain is not at record highs, it was higher in the early 2000s than it is now. It has peaked somewhat again from a low a few years ago but murder rates are not at their highest ever, that is media hyperbole.

    Outlets like Breitbart deliberately misrepresent the violent crime stats in the UK because they want to link it directly to the Muslim invasion in Europe, they want their readers to believe that the murder rate in the UK is at a record high and it’s specifically because of Muslim mass immigration.

  15. Znzn says:
    @songbird

    The Dakotas, West Virginia, New Hampshire, Wyoming, Vermont, and Montana are something like 90 percent White and yet have higher homicide rates than most European countries. Plus is it just me, or are American prole whites a lot trashier as a whole than non-Anglo Western European prole whites? People of Walmart? And the Anglo altright has a higher proportion of human trash as well compared to European nationalist movements? I mean Western European white proles do not have the meth epidemic that American and Canadian white proles have. Is this down to Anglo whites being a lot more individualistic? Libertarianism being a lot stronger ideologically in the US whereas it is irelevant in European politics?

    • Replies: @utu
    , @songbird
  16. I’ve noticed that “European” blacks don’t seem as violent and toxic as “Anglo” blacks. I have never heard a French person, for instance, claim that blacks in France commit a lot of violent crime or appear to be particularly scared of them.

    It seems to be almost exclusively North African Muslims and Arabs who the French and other Europeans fear, not blacks. Blacks in France seem to just exist in the background, the native French don’t seem to see them as particularly a problem in the way blacks are strongly associated with violent crime and feared by whites in the US and UK, violent crime in France seems to be almost exclusively associated with North Africans and Arabs.

  17. Dreadilk says:
    @Europe Europa

    I don’t get people like you. Do you not read trends? NYC people constantly wax about how bad the 80s were. Bitch it’s been getting worse, you want to wait until it’s like the 80s before you do something?

    Not surprising a ton of whites fleeing NYC.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  18. @Dreadilk

    I’m not saying violent crime isn’t a problem, just that many on the right try to make the stats fit their own political agendas.

    The reason the murder rate has increased significantly in the UK is because of blacks, most of whom are not Muslims, but it’s taboo to mention that even on the right. Most right wingers and Breitbart types seem to be much more content with believing that the increase in the murder rate is due to some sort of Arab Muslim invasion.

    • Replies: @Dreadilk
  19. A123 says:

    The V4 kept Muslims out. Less Islam = Less violent crime.

    Here is a Polish magazine cover from 2016 vividly showing the consequences of the Muslim rapeugee invasion.
    .

    .

    Countries that allowed in massive numbers of violent Muslims, most notably Sweden and Germany, have soaring rates of rape and other violent crime rates because Islam and Infidels (Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.) are incompatible.

    When will the people get rid of IslamoGlobalist elites like Mullah Merkel?
    And, once rid of Muslim leaders, is it too late to send the invaders home?

    It may already be too late for Sweden.

    PEACE 😇

  20. utu says:
    @Znzn

    “And the Anglo altright has a higher proportion of human trash as well compared to European nationalist movements? “ – It is historical. Look at lower class Brits. They like to drink and fight. It used to be perfect material for soldiers and sailors to be sent throughout the British Empire.

  21. utu says:
    @A123

    Typical zio-hasbara. Breitbart? Christian Europe succeeded in Reconquista actually against Jews working for Moors and Arabs and Ottomans. I think Jewish help is not needed this time.

    • LOL: A123
    • Replies: @A123
  22. @Znzn

    Alot more poverty than Europe?

    There’s alot, alot of poor whites in the USA.

    Also, large parts of the USA, in the South especially still somewhat follow the old honour based culture. Combined with guns, poverty, whiskey, and poor educations you can see more crime.

    Honestly I am taken aback when I see alot of the rural, poor, evangelical whites in the USA. They are like time travellers from 100 or 150 years ago. Which is a good thing, obviously whites weren’t as retarded back then. They’re outbreeding the liberals, too. Something like 1/5 or even 1/4 Americans believe in young earth creationism. But you would never meet them unless you went looking.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    , @AP
    , @Wency
  23. songbird says:
    @Znzn

    Well, I don’t know. There are a lot of differences.

    You go to the country in Europe, and it often seems as though a lot more of the houses are clustered. Like, it evokes a medieval hamlet. That might have something to do with it. And the distance between family members.

    But I always thought New Hampshire natives were more polite than Massachusetts people. This is probably changing though, as New Hampshire is being super-invaded, partly by rootless whites, but you can see black faces in the smallest, most rural villages now.

    I’ve never felt unsafe in a white area. In the city, you tend not to see unmixed crowds of trashier whites because all of the PoC, so it is harder to notice something like the Chav culture. I think in my whole life, I have only seen one very sketchy crowd of whites in America. This was in Lowell, an old milltown. But they were all in their forties and looked like druggies. I would have felt safe walking by them though, at least in the daytime.

    What “people of Walmart” that I have seen that were whites (such as when there was a NASCAR race nearby), I would call rubes. Not bad people by any means, just unrefined.

    • Replies: @Znzn
  24. @Beckow

    In fact I became a much more hardened racist after visiting Europe.

    I saw blacks on every corner. Just sitting. Staring at us with beady eyes. Waiting to attack. Everywhere. Literally a plague on the continent.

    Surprisingly, I didn’t get bothered by an African once. While my friends kept getting bothered by them with the wristband scam and others.

    They know what’s going on. It’s the vast majority of whites who are totally deluded. How anybody could see Europe today and NOT become a racist is quite frankly unfathomable to me.

    Dark times ahead, I promise you that.

  25. @songbird

    Giannis Antetokounmpo

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  26. A123 says:
    @utu

    Utu,

    You should give up. We all understand that you are a typical lying Muslim.

    Scream … Satan is Greater, Allah Ahkbar, Satan is Greater … It will not help you or your Satan-Allah.

    Everyone understands the truth. ISLAM = RAPE

    PEACE 😇

  27. Znzn says:
    @songbird

    I would say that libertarianism hurted whites culturally more than it helped.

  28. @Znzn

    Libertarianism is probably the most retarded ideology in this day and age.

    It was pretty dope back in the cowboy age, and the wild west. All that was west of the Mississippi including mexico was pretty much a libertarian heaven.

    Unfortunately many of those people still have delusions and pine for the wild west days. They don’t realize that today lack of government means “corporations replace you with h1b, send your jobs to mexico and then big tech replaces the government and censors you.”

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
  29. @A123

    The main perps of violent crime and rape in Europe are blacks, but the civ nats who post on sites like Breitbart and predominate in countries like Poland would have people believe that these crimes are solely committed by Arab Muslims and that blacks are devout Christians and the good guys who should be welcomed.

    Poles love violent Negro culture and rap music, the typical young Polish man likes to mimic a black American “gangsta”, the black American man represents the pinnacle of masculinity to Polish men.

    • Replies: @A123
    , @Bliss
    , @Anon 2
  30. A123 says:
    @Europe Europa

    the black American man represents the pinnacle of masculinity to Polish men.

    Mostly untrue.

    The IslamoSoros and his pro-Muslim NGO’s have tried to penetrate key V4 cities such as Warsaw and Budapest. Because of this you will see aberrant Muslim behaviour celebrated in these limited places that have been infected.

    Fortunately, both Hungary and Poland are actively fighting against IslamoSoros and his attempts to foist Islam on Christian nations. They, like Russia, are placing national sovereignty above the IslamoGlobalist disease.

    PEACE 😇

  31. songbird says:
    @Znzn

    I agree. I think political libertarianism is fundamentally an illusion.

    On the other hand, maybe, technological libertarianism could actually lead to something positive, like escaping inflation through alternative currencies? But I’m a bit skeptical of this too. Ultimately, the state and corporations control the most powerful computers.

  32. @Europe Europa

    New World blacks are much more virulent and violent than African blacks.

    • Replies: @Dreadilk
    , @Europe Europa
  33. @Europe Europa

    As people like Theodore Dalrymple point out, the murder rate in the UK would be far higher only for modern medical techniques

    Of course it applies to all western countries I suppose

    • Agree: James N. Kennett
  34. Anon 2 says:

    That’s exactly what I’ve been saying on this blog for several years now.
    Poland has extremely low rates of social dysfunction such as murder,
    rape, abortion, suicide, divorce, STDs, HIV, homelessness, obesity,
    drug addiction, homelessness, terrorism, school shootings, etc.
    For example, Poland has lower murder rates than Germany, France,
    Britain or Israel. Ideally, life is about the pursuit of enlightenment/
    holiness. This is the only thing that is capable of lifting us above
    the level of smart chimps. Unfortunately, maximizing our net worth
    typically brings out our base animal instincts, starting with greed.
    Look at Weinstein, Epstein, and Madoff – they reduced themselves
    to the smart chimp level by giving vent to their base appetites

  35. @melanf

    I have not visited SPB but I have visited Prague and Budapest. Both cities are pleasant as a tourist but must be hellish for a local, especially Prague. It is no exaggeration to say that I struggled to hear any Czech spoken at all even outside the most obvious tourist areas.

    The Nordic capitals in that sense are blessed. We’re simply too expensive for mindless Asian tourism and “stag parties”, so we get fewer, richer and more concentrated tourists in strictly defined areas. I do hear English or some other languages being spoken in the center of my city, but it is quite rare. I’m certainly grateful for that.

    Tourism is an overestimated income source, it makes a zoo (good analogy) out of your city.

  36. Dreadilk says:
    @Europe Europa

    I don’t know anything about England other than reports on Arabs having rape gangs and local authorities being cucks.

    Also hate speech laws.

    Also stabbings.

  37. @A123

    It may already be too late for Sweden.

    Ok boomer.

    • Replies: @A123
    , @songbird
  38. @anonymous coward

    I think there might be something in that. Blacks in the UK and US (obviously) are predominantly New World blacks, blacks in France however are mostly of direct African origin and hence retain a lot more Africanness which probably makes them more resistant to black American ghetto “culture”.

    Outside of the UK I don’t hear of black immigrants being seen as much of a problem, it’s Arabs/North Africans who are seen as almost exclusively the problem in most of Europe. If the average native French or German person imagines a typical immigrant criminal, I think they think of a brown North African not a black Sub-Saharan.

  39. Dreadilk says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Yes fuck tourism. But also who wants to visit Nordic countries anyways. All you got is shit and snow.

  40. When Russians visit Western Europe, all the diversity/feminism/LGBTQ are like a slap to the face that draws attention from everything else.

    I think Dmitry is correct in saying that if the EU ever radically loosened visa restrictions for Russia the way it did for Ukraine in 2017, then Russian emigration would skyrocket, effectively disproving your fantasies that some feminist bogeyman holds Russians back.

    You and Varangian are outliers, very high on ethnocentrism whereas most people are just very high on materialism. While Med/V4 murder rates are now in a better position, their relative difference is very slight.

    Russia’s murder rate is still 5X (at least) that of Sweden’s. And our hourly average gross wages are about 5X as high, too. I don’t see that closing any time soon. Guess which country is which:

    More importantly, there are other QoL issues in the world. Such as health. Moscow does very poorly on that account; second worst in Europe and its surroundings, after notable superstars like Baku, Azerbaijan. Western Europe still maintains a massive lead in those areas and that will not go away any time soon.

    • Replies: @aedib
    , @Europe Europa
  41. @Thulean Friend

    Tourism appeals as an industry to countries that happen to have good weather and/or historical sites and have little to no industry otherwise. It’s a fairly low effort way for a country to make money if they happen to have the factors that would attract tourists in the first place.

    It’s also an industry that fairly unskilled people can easily participate in, like running small restaurants or shops catering to tourists.

  42. A123 says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Amazing how you missed the Muslim mass rapes.

    No one is falling for your Muslim lies anymore.

    PEACE 😇

    • LOL: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Agathoklis
  43. aedib says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Average national income must be corrected by PPP in order to have a more realistic comparison.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
  44. @Thulean Friend

    I’ve heard it claimed that the high murder rate in Russia is mostly due to the non-Slav groups who live there. Not sure how true that is though, although most Far Eastern countries have fairly low murder rates so it doesn’t seem likely that Russian Asians would have any particular propensity to violent crime.

  45. Matra says:
    @Europe Europa

    violent crime in France seems to be almost exclusively associated with North Africans and Arabs.

    Wrong. It’s associated with Arabs and blacks. The 2005 rioting that lasted for more than a month was likely more black, than Arab, but you wouldn’t have known that reading ziocon American media.

  46. Karel says:
    @Thulean Friend

    claiming that
    “I struggled to hear any Czech spoken at all even outside the most obvious tourist areas.”
    stretches somewhat our perception of a reality unless, of course you make such judgements while sitting in a restaurant recomended by some international agency but avoided by Czechs.

    According to the official statistics from 2018 about 20% of all tourist coming to Prague were Czechs and probably another 10% came from Slovakia. Can you tell the difference between the two languages? I doubt it. So, your claim is a grotesque exageration especially as you discount the locals who are not tourists but speak Czech. . There are too many tourists in Prague for sure, everyone knows that, but to point that out, you do not have to make such silly statements.

    • Agree: Matra
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    , @Matra
  47. songbird says:
    @Thulean Friend

    I wonder what would happen if we dropped guns on Sweden, like the Swedish government used to give to the blacks in Africa?

    But, seriously, murder rate is a poor indicator of quality of life, IMO. The majority of ethnic conflict is not denoted by murder. Daughter of Albion says she was redpilled, when a Paki spat on her. Often, even in the worst times in Ireland, the common thing to do was to strip families of their clothing and let them run the gambit of exposure, which meant that technically mother nature did the killing.

    But, anyway, I am actually a bull on Sweden. (depending on whether all of Western Europe falls) The cold and dark winters mean that most parasites would leave, if they simply ceased being enabled, (shut off the heat and light) and you gave them a free flight and a little spending money to sweeten the deal.

    Of course, even if that happened, Sweden’s ethnic make-up would still be permanently changed. There wouldn’t be as much blond hair, which would be a small tragedy, but maybe it would help balance Swede’s out psychologically.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
  48. A123 says:
    @Europe Europa

    I’ve heard it claimed that the high murder rate in Russia is mostly due to the non-Slav groups who live there.

    Russia has its own Muslim violence problem. This story dates back to 2016: (1)

    Moscow: Russian investigators today filed murder charges against a nanny after she beheaded a four-year-old handicapped girl in her care and brandished the severed head in a Moscow street. … suspect Gyulchekhra Bobokulova, a 38-year-old native of Muslim-majority Uzbekistan

    The reason it is somewhat lower than other countries is Russia’s ability to dump its hard cases. The Boston Marathon bombers are ethnic Chechnyan.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/russia-charges-nanny-who-beheaded-4-year-old-child-1284051

  49. melanf says:
    @A123

    This is obviously an absurd statistic. Clearly the reason for this difference is in different criteria

  50. @Europe Europa

    it doesn’t seem likely that Russian Asians would have any particular propensity to violent crime.

    How wrong you are. Meet the Russian Apex Predator !!!

    [MORE]

  51. melanf says:
    @Europe Europa

    I’ve heard it claimed that the high murder rate in Russia is mostly due to the non-Slav groups who live there.

    This is not true. The most common murders in Russia are committed by alcoholics against other alcoholics (usually during joint drinking). Ethnic crime exists, but it has very little effect on the murder rate

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  52. @Karel

    I stand by my impressions. FYI, I spent about a week in the city, though still mostly in the core areas (so not outside in the suburbs/commieblocs where most actual Czechs live) and it was not at all common to hear Czech in comparison to other languages. The difference when I got back home was truly striking.

    FWIW, many Czechs themselves are making the same point so I don’t know why you’re so butthurt at the fact that someone is pointing out the truth. Prague is in many ways a colonised city at this point. A cute Disneyland for the benefit of others.

  53. It’s surprising how little the murder rate appears to have increased in Germany, considering Germany is the very centre of the latest wave of mass immigration into Europe, yet it’s increase has been far less than Britain. Also Italy, another country I would have thought would be heavily affected, appears to have a murder rate in constant decline.

  54. @songbird

    I wonder what would happen if we dropped guns on Sweden, like the Swedish government used to give to the blacks in Africa?

    I listened to a radio documentary the other day that SR (our state-funded radio) produced about our support to the ANC. There was a stunning statistic I snapped up. Apparently at our peak, we gave more aid to the ANC than the whole of North America did.

    Some conspiracy theorists have even claimed that the murder of Olof Palme may have been by the Afrikaaner security service. SR interviewed our former ambassador to SA during the 1980s who shared that they had broken into her home (in Sweden, when she was visiting family) and left a bullet to make sure she got the message. There were a number of bomb attacks against ANC offices in Stockholm during the 1980s.

    I had conflicting feelings when listening to it. I view Apartheid as a failed and immoral system that had to go. At the same time, there were legitimate fears by the boers in particular, many of whom have unfortunately come to pass. Who can now view South Africa and say it is better off? I think the best solution would probably have been an amicable separation, two seperate countries.

    murder rate is a poor indicator of quality of life, IMO

    Any single indicator is going to be insufficient on its own, but murder rate is certainly an important component in any comprehensive analysis.

    The majority of ethnic conflict is not denoted by murder.

    True. I find it bizarre that humanity is so obsessed with violence. There is a lot of debate over abuse in close relations right now, with a lot of women saying that there has been too much focus on physical violence and insufficient on emotional/mental violence. That is absolutely correct.

    I am actually a bull on Sweden. (depending on whether all of Western Europe falls) The cold and dark winters mean that most parasites would leave, if they simply ceased being enabled, (shut off the heat and light) and you gave them a free flight and a little spending money to sweeten the deal.
    Of course, even if that happened, Sweden’s ethnic make-up would still be permanently changed. There wouldn’t be as much blond hair, which would be a small tragedy, but maybe it would help balance Swede’s out psychologically.

    Most people would not leave Sweden, which at any rate is going to become dramatically warmer as the decades roll on. Being brown is also certainly no hinderance to living in cold climates. Northern Iran isn’t very warm in the winter, for example.

    I also think it is problematic to weed people out by religion or nationality. We ought to move on as a species from such primitive groupings such as nationality and sort people based on emotional/social profile instead. Intelligence is of course also a valid concern. I’d have purged many Swedish people, though probably proportionally less than any other nationality because I do believe that Nordic people have the highest shares of traits that I find positive. The only problem is that the proportion is still small regardless.

    As for blond hair, yes I agree. I still have hard-wired preference for people who look like me no matter how irrational. It’s a bit funny and sad at the same time, but I’ve come to accept that I just have to live with it.

    • LOL: Dreadilk
    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    , @songbird
  55. EldnahYm says:
    @Znzn

    Age has a lot to do with it. Much of Europe is rapidly turning into an old folks home, and it is mostly younger males who commit violent crimes. I doubt that’s the only factor of course. Regional differences in the U.S. make comparison somewhat difficult.

    I actually do wonder if the U.S. has absorbed a significant number of troublesome people from certain areas of Europe. The non-Huguenot French descended population of the U.S. seem far more criminally inclined compared to the natives in France. We certainly received a lot of scum from Italy.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  56. @Thulean Friend

    Who can now view South Africa and say it is better off? I think the best solution would probably have been an amicable separation, two seperate countries.

    I don’t get why people consider a two-state solution in Israel/Palestine to be a perfectly reasonable solution yet consider a two-state solution in South Africa to be racist and basically unthinkable.

    The general consensus of most white people seems to be that South African whites should live under black rule and that the negative consequences of this are basically deserved, yet I’ve never once heard anyone argue that Israeli Jews should live under Arab rule and that any negative consequences of this are basically deserved.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    , @Pericles
  57. this is what RamzPaul talks about a lot with regards to Hungary.

    “Even though they are still poorer, on most beans-counting measures of economic progress, it has simply become nicer to to live there as Western countries falls into dysfunction.”

    well, at least a lot more pleasant i would assume. there’s less tech, infrastructure, and creature comforts, but it’s a better experience. and, westerners now WAY underestimate how pleasant things are without the ‘benefits’ of diversity. i think even a lot of the older people have forgotten what it was like to live without vibrants everywhere.

    by living in East Europe, essentially you get USA circa 1980 tech levels and infrastructure, but USA circa 1950 demographics and culture. and that’s a trade a lot of people would make. heck, that’s the world our parents come from, and yes it was better.

    in East Europe, at least you have a future. in globohomo diversity world, people inherently understand they and their offspring don’t have a future, which is why the suicide rate is so high now.

  58. @songbird

    Rubbish. Apart from the recent illegal immigrant inflow, which are temporarily housed and then shipped to Europe or back to Turkey, Greece has relatively few immigrants compared to western Europe.

    Note, the percentage of born in a country outside the EU is comprised to a significant extent of ethnic Greeks from northern Epirus (southern Albania) and the former Soviet Union.

    • Replies: @songbird
  59. @The Big Red Scary

    Karlin’s inclusion of Med countries does not make sense. The Med countries, including Greece, have had very low homicide rates going back since statistics were first collected. The only time when homicide was a problem was in the 19th century when the countries were largely undeveloped and rural and vendettas were an issue. However, in more modern times they have always recorded low homicide and violent crime rates.

  60. @aedib

    PPP = poor people’s parity. PPP matters more for measuring poverty, where almost all of your consumption is domestic. Yes, even as middle-class, your consumption will still mostly be domestic but who here seriously considers your rent or electrical bills to be QoL?

    Upwardly mobile people consider foreign vacations, new gadets, cars and other internationally traded goods and services to be what makes life worth living. Getting a robotic vacuum cleaner is a big plus for life satisfaction, especially now that many of them are genuinely good. Forget about being able to afford a good one if you’re poor. Going on an exciting multi-week tour of South-East Asia isn’t going to be cheap if your wage is €600 per month, especially if you have kids in tow. And that is where nominal income becomes relevant. Nobody lives for their rent.

    • LOL: Dreadilk
    • Replies: @Yevardian
    , @Dmitry
    , @AP
    , @Dreadilk
  61. @A123

    The data conforms to my point above. Violent crime in Med countries, including Greece, has always been lower than northern Europe.

  62. Vile Varangian makes a critical point that i’ve discussed a few times as well. contra BenAris, a lot of peoples of the world are moving in the opposite direction of the West. exposure to Western prosperity, tech, and culture doesn’t make them want to be like the West. lots of them will just take the tech, then mostly stay the way they were before. China in particular is taking all the Western tech, and using it to become MORE authoritarian, more right wing, and LESS liberal.

    BenAris makes the same crucial mistake that all traditional liberals and many modern leftists make – they have a strong background belief that simple exposure year 2020 Western ‘enlightenment’ is gonna steadily convert all the humans of the world to their way of thinking. but that’s backwards in many cases.

    i think they get this idea from western university professors in particular, 90% of whom seem to be very deeply steeped in this concept. as Obama commented about, the moral arc of the universe and so forth. most of them really believe this stuff. but a future more like Brazil, Mexico, or South Africa is what will really happen if the immigration floodgates remain open.

    Brazil, with muslims. yikes. not an enjoyable future. levels of legal justice will decline, levels of economic inequality will rise, social cooperation will give way to social friction and the population atomizing into smaller, competing groups who can’t work together on much. the exact opposite of that the liberals and moderate leftists envision. hard leftists know it will be like this, which is why they’re more into forcing you to along.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  63. Daniel.I says:
    @Europe Europa

    You do realize that East Asians (Japanese / Chinese / Koreans) have been under the domesticating effects of agriculture for far longer than the Siberians that make up (some of) Russia’s minorities, right ?

  64. EldnahYm says:
    @Europe Europa

    As the populations of Blacks increases, the number of criminals will increase. There are already plenty of individual examples. Comparing European Africans, who are a much smaller group(therefore less likely to be representative of the average), to blacks in the U.S. is misleading.

    There are probably regional differences as well. Nigerians, Congolese, and Zulu for example probably have more violent scum among them than do Ethiopians say. American Blacks are mostly West Africans, I doubt that is the case in continental Europe.

    There are more north Africans in Europe than blacks, particularly in France. Of course they will be more infamous.

  65. @prime noticer

    Most Muslim countries have murder rates much lower than Brazil and South America in general.

  66. @Europe Europa

    I agree with your sentiments though I think there are a few complications:

    a) SA whites are now only 8% of the population and have lower fertility + high emigration. So their “negotiating position” is declining continuously. Israeli Jews form a much larger proportion of the population, even if you count all Palestinians “from the river to the sea”. About 50/50. And they have just as high, if not higher, fertility.

    b) Unlike Israeli Jews, where even liberals want seperate lives from Palestinians, many SA whites still want an integrated state. Remember, even within-1967 borders, arabs and jews go to seperate schools in what is in many ways a Jim Crow-like system. There is very little mixing in general, even among liberals. Segregation in SA happens mostly because of different economic circumstances, not by law as in Israel. Therefore it is not as enforced or as consistent, though it is still non-trivial. Fundamentally, you need internal political consensus for separation, which exists among Israeli jews but not among SA whites.

    c) The time for two states for two peoples would have been the late 1980s. The political map in the West was quite generous and everyone just wanted the nightmare to end. Getting capetown but giving up the mining resources around Joburg would have been seen as a decent compromise and giving blacks a fair shot at building their own state with the new-found wealth. Though, international investors would likely have grumbled at any nationalisations.

    I now think the chances for a “two state solution” in either SA or Israel to be nil. In the case of Israel, a de facto Apartheid state is in place and will remain unless Israel either does a third round (first in 1948, second in 1967) of ethnic cleansing or it becomes a binational, fully democratic state. As for SA, I think only emigration is the realistic option left unless you want perpetual ANC and possibly EFF rule.

  67. @Znzn

    “Why are American whites more violent than European whites?”

    i assume this is due to the Irish and Scotch-Irish population, which is really big – like 25% or 30% of all europeans in the US. and of course, handguns, which turn arguments that would be fist fights or stabbings into shootings. i once saw some data that the introduction of Samuel Colt’s revolvers in the 1850 to 1870 time period increased the homicide rate by like 300% – not sure of exact figure.

    the Colt Single Action Army alone must have killed thousands of people by 1900.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  68. Matra says:
    @Karel

    Unless a tourist spends all his time standing at the astronomical clock or in Irish bars in the old town he will will hear Czech spoken pretty much everywhere in Prague.

  69. songbird says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Apparently at our peak, we gave more aid to the ANC than the whole of North America did.

    Yes, that is quite notable, if it includes blacks, or private fundraising.

    Some conspiracy theorists have even claimed that the murder of Olof Palme may have been by the Afrikaaner security service.

    Sounds reasonable.

    I learned the other day that Sweden ran a numbers station on shortwave. That is an espionage thing, where a voice reads out what appear to be random sets of numbers to facilitate covert communication to secret operatives.

    Of course, many countries had such stations, but it is really strange to contemplate. I mean, on one level Sweden is an ostensibly neutral country, almost like Switzerland. But on another level, they were probably involved in a lot of nefarious things. (at least if you believe in the idea of non-interference).

    I think of the Ibiza scandal with the Austrian Freedom Party. Though I tend to think that was Germany. There is probably a lot of stuff like that going on, with different countries being involved.

    Being brown is also certainly no hinderance to living in cold climates.

    I agree with you partly on this, but there are various factors at play. Latitude makes a big difference, IMO. (As there are greenhouses that operate in Nebraska in winter, with snow on the ground, with virtually no energy inputs but solar and underground heat storage.) But in my scenario, what I’m talking about is shutting off utilities. In a humane way – so it would be designed to increase discomfort. I imagine that their living quarters contain no chimneys, and that anyway, even the availability of wood could be limited, if desired. A lot of the trick is just giving them somewhere better to go – perhaps even building housing in the third world. With fertility falling in a lot of the world, there might even be a fair amount of space for them back home.

    If you had to get your water from a communal tap and could not take a shower, and had to use a communal toilet (since the one in your apartment would be frozen), that would be pretty unpleasant. Not even counting the lack of light and entertainment.

    Who can now view South Africa and say it is better off? I think the best solution would probably have been an amicable separation, two seperate countries.

    Of course, I agree with this. Sometimes, I think living together is not humane, even just considering the other side. Comparison causes a kind of insanity, and takes away from natural pride.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
  70. songbird says:
    @Agathoklis

    Good to know, though hopefully Greece would stop being a transit point. I mean, I know Giannis Antetokounmpo was born a while back, but anyway there is something really wrong when Nigerians are coming to Greece, even if it is only to move on to better pastures.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  71. @Europe Europa

    “Most Muslim countries have murder rates much lower than Brazil and South America in general.”

    because they can impose Islamic justice. and you don’t wanna break the law under those rules.

    but that won’t be the law in Brazil With Muslims. Brazil With Muslims will have the high murder rate of Brazil or Mexico, the weak law and justice system of Latin America, but at the same time it will have that creeping Muslim conquest thing, where they take over, town by town, with the usual bombings, stabbings, and shootings.

    note in western nations with lots of muslims but which aren’t Islamic law nations, the violent crime rate ain’t low. you have to constantly monitor the muslim population.

    what is the future of a country with Mexican drug cartels on one side, fighting against muslim town conquering factions on the other side, fighting against the endless waves of Nigerian settlers, but without enough european men left to act as referees?

  72. Yevardian says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Could this post possibly be any more SWPL or Swedish?

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  73. I used to think the level of mass immigration and associated problem in Western countries was very unjust and not what people voted for or support, now I think it is precisely what people voted for and implicitly support.

    Most Western whites vote for parties that are pro-Zionist, even in Eastern Europe most of the governments these days are pro-Zionist. If whites don’t support peace and prosperity for Palestinians they what makes them think they deserve it? Because they’re superior beings or something? Whites are getting everything they vote for, in fact they’re lucky things aren’t worse.

    • Replies: @Tusk
  74. Anon 2 says:

    The belief that Western Europe is morally degenerate is not new in Poland.
    It’s been around for at least 200 years. It probably goes back to the days of
    the French Revolution when Poland offered refuge to hundreds if not
    thousands of the French nobles and their families who escaped France
    and sat out the Revolution in Poland (but notice: not in Germany).
    Close relationships were established, and observations were made. That’s
    when the nobility throughout continental Europe predominantly spoke French.

    Streetwalkers were still common in Paris as recently as the 1990s.
    Henry Miller wrote about them in the 1930s, in books such as Tropic
    of Cancer. He took advantage of the high dollar-to-franc exchange rate,
    and employed their services regularly. Today, partly because of his
    generous use of the word c*nt, the feminists made sure that his
    writings would never be mentioned on America’s campuses.

    Until perhaps the 1950s or ‘60s, homosexuality was regarded as an
    English disease. It was thought to be rare elsewhere in Europe.

    But there is no question that starting in the 1950s it was Sweden who
    developed a bad reputation as a sexually promiscuous country. It
    happened partly because of movies like Bergman’s “Summer with
    Monika” (1953), perhaps the most shocking movie of the early 1950s,
    due to explicit scenes showing nudity and sexual degeneracy. This was
    a big deal in the ‘50s, and it established a bad reputation of
    Swedish women by portraying them as easy, which continues to this day.
    Poor Thulean Friend is being attacked here so I don’t want to be too hard
    on Sweden, an unattractive country, much of which is unfit for human
    habitation. They are being punished enough by six months of darkness.
    Some would say they deserve to be punished because of the horrors
    of their history. After all, nobody would’ve heard of the Vikings and
    Berserkers (and other Germanics like Vandals) if it hadn’t been for
    their proclivity for extreme violence. And today’s “nice,” “peaceful”
    Sweden has a war industry with the highest sales per capita of any
    country in Europe. Typical hypocrisy

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    , @Yevardian
  75. @Anon 2

    I find it odd that homosexuality would be seen as something particularly English, considering by Western European standards England doesn’t strike me as particularly “gay”.

    The European gay hotspots are places like the Netherlands, Spain, Germany, perhaps even France. I don’t get the impression England ranks particularly highly as a “gay destination”. Unlike many major European cities I don’t think London even has a specific gay district, the closest thing is Soho but that’s more known for the sex industry/seedy atmosphere in general rather than being specifically gay.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Anon 2
  76. @songbird

    One of the critical elements constituting ethnicity is common ancestry. Antetokounmpo clearly does not have the same ancestry as Greeks. Therefore, he may be Greek politically but not ethnically.

    • Replies: @songbird
  77. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    Well, young-earth creationism does sound pretty retarded, given the evidence at hand. But otherwise agree with your assessment.

    Not a bad thing, on balance, to be more like our ancestors of 100-150 years ago than the developing mass of lonely, barren, disloyal, amoral misfits constituting our population.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  78. @EldnahYm

    No, simpleton, “we” received millions of good, industrious, honest, normal, productive, patriotic, trustworthy, family-minded people from Italy — and a comparatively tiny number of gangsters (and those disproportionately from Sicily, not mainland Italy).

    Like my ancestors, who expressed love and gratitude for this country since the day they arrived, fought in its stupid wars, told their children to speak only English and not Italian, and always, always worked — and later, studied.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  79. @prime noticer

    You are right on the money, Prime.

    There is a reason why we are less and less interested in having our kids continue to learn German as recent years go along; why we are saving for big vacations in Russia and eastern Europe rather than western Europe as I had always expected; and why at least some of our kids (and maybe my wife and I to a lesser extent) will start learning Russian in a couple years.

  80. songbird says:
    @Agathoklis

    I concur. They showed a program here about a year ago, where Greek-American fans of basketball were cheering Antetokounmpo on. He was representing the Greek national team. It was very sad – the media were using him as a tool to promote globalism.

    That is why I make the contention that all sports should have a national element. The best would be historically based, like in Greece, wrestling. Or in Ireland, hurling. Or in India, Kabaddi. Or in Korea, Taekwondo. But they should at least be ethnically based.

    The important thing is that it would not be laundry and flags competing. Because right now, the Olympics seem to being turning into “our blacks vs. yours”, which I am sure the ancient Greeks would have frowned upon.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  81. EldnahYm says:
    @prime noticer

    i assume this is due to the Irish and Scotch-Irish population, which is really big – like 25% or 30% of all europeans in the US.

    The Irish who arrived in the U.S. were not particularly violent(except maybe to Chinese people). They were into all sorts of corrupt municipal and union politics, but they were not murderers and rapists. In any case, the Republic of Ireland has low homicide rates.

    Northern Ireland had higher homicide rates during the Troubles, but before and after its homicide rates were low. Maybe the Ulster Scots who came to the U.S. were more violent than the people who stayed behind, but I doubt the difference is so large to explain U.S. numbers. Both Irish and Ulster Scots in the U.S. are surely more mixed(with English primarily) than those still in Ulster and the Republic of Ireland.

    I also wonder how you arrived at your estimates for Irish and Scotch-Irish people in the U.S.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Bliss
  82. songbird says:
    @Europe Europa

    Edwardian England was pretty gay. In fact, it is almost surprising that AIDS didn’t show up that early, as there were people like Roger Casement (Anglo-Irish) taking sojourns in Africa, though I don’t know how to compare it to other countries.

    It seems as though there were prominent gays everywhere, like Eulenberg and Grand Duke Konstantin Konstantinovich. I wonder whether the nobility were gayer than the common people.

    But anyway, I don’t think any country had England’s combination of boarding school culture and a large navy.

  83. Yevardian says:
    @Anon 2

    But there is no question that starting in the 1950s it was Sweden who
    developed a bad reputation as a sexually promiscuous country. It
    happened partly because of movies like Bergman’s “Summer with
    Monika” (1953), perhaps the most shocking movie of the early 1950s,
    due to explicit scenes showing nudity and sexual degeneracy

    The message and tone of that film is actually quite conservative, as is the case with practically all of Bergman’s films. The now (rightly) forgotten movie ‘I am Curious [Yellow]’ would be a much better example.

  84. EldnahYm says:
    @RadicalCenter

    About half of the Italians who came to the U.S. would later go back to Italy. So in fact we received a large number of worthless people. Regarding crime, data from 1904(See Table 6: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831353/ ) places Italians as committing the highest number of major offenses of any white group in the U.S. It may be that the overwhelming majority were Sicilian, I have no data on that.

    It’s probably worth emphasizing that immigrant crime rates were higher than natives at the time Italians came to the U.S. in large numbers. Movies like to make a big deal about Prohibition, but the main cause of high crime rates during that time was Ellis Islanders themselves(as was commonly known at the time).

    Italians also voted overwhelmingly Democrat, and only changed more recently as the Reaganite swine Republicans turned the party in a direction which was more pro-immigration than the Democrats.

    The U.S. would have been better off without Italians immigrants.

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @RadicalCenter
  85. @Znzn

    White Americans have fewer CAG repeats in their androgen receptor genes than Europeans (using white Americans in Utah and midwesterners as a proxy).

    The theory is that that fewer androgen receptor repeats = more violent, although this isn’t supported by much evidence. I personally think a lot of the androgen receptor and general endocrinology science is bullshit, or too premature to take conclusions from. I doubt there is a causal link between hormones/hormone sensitivity and crime.

    Interestingly, the population with the highest CAG repeat count (globally), and therefore presumably the least violent and criminally predisposed, is none other than Papua New Guineans.

    Regardless, it is pretty obvious that U.S. Americans are more ornery than the people who stayed behind. Think about how much more violent WW1/2 could have been if the “American stock” had remained in Europe.

  86. utu says:
    @EldnahYm

    https://www.unz.com/book/e_a_ross__the-old-world-in-the-new/
    “In the quality of their crimes our immigrants differ more from one another than they do in complexion or in the color of their eyes. The Irishman’s love of fighting has made Donnybrook Fair a byword; yet it is a fact that personal violence is six or seven times as often the cause of confinement for Italian, Magyar, or Finnish prisoners in our penitentiaries as for the Irish. Patrick may be quarrelsome, but he fights with his hands, and in his cups he is not homicidal,like the South Italian, or ferocious, like the Finn. Three-fifths of the Hebrew convicts are confined for gainful offenses, but only one-fifth of the Irish. Among a score or more of nationalities, the Irish stand nearly at the foot of the list in the commission of larceny, burglary, forgery, fraud, or homicide. Rape, pandering, and the white-slave traffic are almost unknown among them. What could be more striking than the fact that more than half of the Irish convicts have been sent up for “offenses against public order,” such as intoxication and vagrancy! One cannot help feeling that the Celtic offender is a feckless fellow, enemy of himself more than of any one else. It is usually not cupidity nor brutality nor lust that lodges him in prison, but conviviality and weak control of impulses.”

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  87. @songbird

    Most Greek-Americans are simply Americans with some Greek ancestry. If one does not at leave have conversational Greek skills or be able to read a mainline Greek newspaper, then they are not ethnically Greek. A claim to Greekness without the requisite language skills is just kitsch. Unlike Jews, where religion is paramount, for Greeks it is language. Therefore, I have very little interest what most Greek Americans think.

    Fortunately, most members of Greek team sports are still indigenous Greeks. Occasionally, an Albanian with an unHellenised name will sneak into the Greek football team but the situation is very different from the so called English or French football teams.

    I agree on sports having a national element. As well as wrestling, Greece should focus on Panktration which makes MMA seem tame. Fortunately, there are many young men (and unfortunately young women) practicing and competing in this form of martial art in gyms and associations around Greece.

    • Replies: @songbird
  88. EldnahYm says:
    @utu

    That’s a nice passage. Obviously the Irish were famous for drunken brawling and the like. The phrase “not particularly violent” is perhaps not the best description. But Ross makes well the point I was trying to make.

    I’m interested in reading more about the ferocious Finn. I’ll have to see what Ross says about them.

  89. Tusk says:
    @Europe Europa

    Pretty dumb take. Look at Australia for example, a country with a two party political system, that like America, ensures controlled opposition on both sides. So it is largely arbitrary who you vote for because neither party represents your interests. Unfortunately this seems to be the case for all of the Anglo world. To put it in perspective here is an extract of a letter to the Australian Prime Minister by a politican who spoke out:

    No people wish for this. We didn’t vote for it and we weren’t asked. Yet every Prime Minister since Whitlam has embraced the policy of indiscriminate immigration. The only choice has been in how quickly we would become a minority.

    “We the people,” were given no democratic option to oppose this madness. Every major party supported it.

    For example, you recently critisised Bill Shorten’s refugee policy. You said it was reckless as it would double the number of refugees at a cost of six billion dollars every year.

    You implied that your own policy was somehow responsible because you would import only half that number at a cost of three billion dollars per year.

    Are Australians supposed to thank you for driving us over the fiscal cliff at half the speed?

    As Prime Minister, you must accept the greatest share of the blame. Sadly, you are not alone. Every other mainstream political party subscribes to the ridiculous trope that diversity is a strength. It is not, and the people know it.

    You have pursued these policies against the will of the people. Along with the deep state, you have viciously attacked anyone who opposed this madness.

    People have been destroyed by accusations of racism, xenophobia, islamophobia, white supremacy and an ever-growing number of slurs.

    In order to lock-in permanent mass immigration, you multicultural elitists have annihilated the bedrock principle of Free Speech from our society.

    https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2019/04/03/fraser-annings-open-letter-on-the-new-zealand-murders/

    Unfortunately for us it really doesn’t matter who we vote for because votes are preferenced to either of the main political parties, meaning you have the choice between globohomo left or pro-zion cheap labour right. There seems to be no political choice that actually provides what you want. It’s the same in the UK, nobody voted for BoJo because he had what they wanted, they voted for him because the other option was worse. Many such cases.

    Small parties really don’t have a chance, and even if they did it would take a while for the tides to turn at which point the demographic window would be closed. There doesn’t seem to be a political solution available. So voting, politics, and democracy have run there course here for Whites.

    • Agree: S
  90. No surprises with this.

    Now it’s only a matter of time before cucks like Thorfinsson are schooled when the Balkans also have lower murder rates and higher standards of living then “core Europe” and USA.

  91. Bliss says:
    @Europe Europa

    the black American man represents the pinnacle of masculinity to Polish men.

    Are they wrong?

    HBD says they are right.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
  92. Andy says:
    @Znzn

    Some whites turned to Libertarianism in the 1960s when they saw all the government programs favoring minorities. But the remedy was worse than the disease, Libertarians have been 100% for open borders, and they have sow confusion within the right on this issue. Until Trump (thank God), no republican president and almost no republican politician were willing to criticize open borders (not even Reagan)

    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
  93. Bliss says:
    @EldnahYm

    The Irish who arrived in the U.S. were not particularly violent(except maybe to Chinese people).

    It wasn’t just the Irish, all northwestern european whites in the West Coast were murderously violent towards the chinese:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_massacre_of_1871

    https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/1877-san-francisco-anti-chinese-race-riots-11302710.php

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  94. AP says:
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    A lot more poverty than Europe?

    There’s alot, alot of poor whites in the USA.

    Even the poorest US state, Mississippi, has a higher per capita GDP than Italy (it is between Italy and France):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita#Current

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    France has about the same per capita GDP as US state #49, Arkansas. Germany is like #44, Montana. It is even lower than Kentucky!

    And for all US states whites are on average better off than blacks so the white number would be higher.

    Also, large parts of the USA, in the South especially still somewhat follow the old honour based culture.

    Yes, this plays a role.

    Combined with guns, poverty, whiskey, and poor educations you can see more crime.

    Guns and whiskey, sure. But not poverty (see above). And not education. American whites do better than most Europeans on PISA.

    Another factor is frontier culture and settlement history. America was settled by adventurous, violent people.

    But keep in ind that the difference between Europeans and American whites in absolute terms is not very big. Homicide rates of mostly white West Virginia and Vermont are 3.7 and 1.6, respectively.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
  95. @songbird

    Sometimes, I think living together is not humane, even just considering the other side. Comparison causes a kind of insanity, and takes away from natural pride.

    In an age of smartphones and (soon) universal internet, living apart is no longer an antidote to hurt pride. I read somewhere that something like 77% of human inequality is essentially explained by your place of birth and citizenship. Whereas only ~3% of the world population are migrants.

    If you think back through most of human history, there was plenty of inequality in places like ancient Rome, Persia, the various Chinese dynasties and so on. But between country inequality was quite modest. There weren’t great differences in the average life of peoples in the various kingdoms and empires until the so-called ‘Great Divergence’ that began in the mid-1700s.

    This is one of the central issues of our time, in part because it is completely unchartered territory. Becoming a migrant is literally the most powerful act that you can do to reduce world inequality. Unless convergence increases at a rapid pace over the coming decades, which looks very unlikely, there will be massive social tension over this between-country inequality.

    This was mostly papered over in previous decades because the West’s population of the world was significantly greater in 1950 and especially the early 1900s than it is now. Flying was also not invented in the early 1900s and even in 1950 it was far from mainstream, the way it is now.

    This is why having a world government was and is so alluring, because it would mediate between different peoples. However, when even the Eurozone countries cannot agree on fiscal transfers from Germans to Greeks, I believe the chances of a world government are close to nil, unfortunately. Many of the institutions created at the end of WWII are badly suited to the task yet it seems to be low on the political priority list. Humans are simple creatures. We mostly react only when crisis hits and even then barely so.

  96. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    In Prague I have not been yet.

    I received nothing special or interesting, or memorable impression – neither anything positive or negative – with my first and only visit to Poland/Warsaw. So I would say my impression of Poland was just – mediocre. (Visiting Germany for my first time, also I didn’t receive any very specially or interesting positive impression, so my lack of impression is not such an insult to Poland).

    When I first visited Austria, Spain, Italy, London – I was highly impressed and had a utopian impression of all these countries.

    When I visited Greece, and islands – in the first time as a child – I just felt I was in a real provincial Mediterranean environment. My memory was of the warm bath of the sea, of palm trees, not of the society or any interest in the country, which has seemed a bit primitive.

    On first visiting Paris, I imagine I was in a Middle Eastern or tropical country due to all the brown and black people in the area we were (I enjoyed and liked this at that age, viewing it as contributing to the adventure), while other cities of provincial France in general I was bored from.

    • Replies: @melanf
  97. Bliss says:
    @EldnahYm

    The U.S. would have been better off without Italians immigrants.

    And Polish immigrants, Greek immigrants, Jewish immigrants etcetera, right?

    Such American Nordicism was the inspiration behind Hitler’s nazism which resulted in the horrible deaths of tens of millions of Europeans during WWII.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    , @prime noticer
  98. Dmitry says:
    @Thulean Friend

    In general, I agree the nominal figure can be more accurate.

    You learn this for example, when you find that there are quite cheap supermarkets in countries like the UK, but a large part of population chooses to go to far more expensive ones where the quality of the same products is higher in their opinion.

    In other words, comparison of food prices between countries is greatly distorted by a voluntary decision of customers in rich countries to buy higher quality version of the same product, that customers in poorer countries would buy.

    Then PPP will be adjusted for the different food prices, but a proportion of products the prices are adjusted for, are not really equivalent, and might have a very different quality level.

    But there some few areas where PPP seems clearly more accurate, as for things like rent and real estate costs (situation between countries in this part of consumption, can have very different prices for the same product).

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @Dreadilk
  99. @AP

    American whites do better than most Europeans on PISA.

    This is somewhat misleading. A better comparison would be US whites vs European natives.

    European natives (click to enlarge):

    The comparison should be with Northern and Western European countries given that most US whites come from this background. Contra claims of “underfunding”, the US also spends a huge amount of money per pupil – even when adjusting for Poor People’s Parity.

    US whites are scoring worse than most Germanic countries and no better than France or the UK. American whites do significantly better on literacy, but that is also a considerably softer measurement than math.

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @AP
  100. Bliss says:
    @Europe Europa

    Most Muslim countries have murder rates much lower than Brazil and South America in general.

    Muslim countries also have the absolute lowest suicide rates. When you add murder and suicide you get the category of intentional death rate and the Muslim region has the lowest Intentional Death Rate in the World while the Latin American region has the highest (the East Asian region has the second highest):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_death_rate

    The highest national murder rates in the World have one thing in common: they are all of overwhelmingly christian former european colonies that are still financially controlled by europeans.

    Of the 50 most murderous cities in the world only 3 are in Africa (all in South Africa), the rest are all in the Americas which is controlled by the european diaspora. Interestingly only 5 of these are in North America (none of these 5 are in the top ten). Which means 42 of the 50 most murderous cities in the world are in Latin America, specifically in Mexico, Central America and Brazil.

    The 3 cities with murder rates >100 per 100,000 are:

    Tijuana, Mexico (138)
    Acapulco, Mexico (111)
    Caracas, Venezuela (100)

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @Bliss
  101. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    Visiting Germany for my first time, also I didn’t receive any very specially or interesting positive impression.
    When I first visited Austria, Spain, Italy, LondonI was highly impressed and had a utopian impression of all these countries.

    But how did you see the difference between Germany and Austria??? Both countries have rich (and similar) architectural heritage, similar terrain, and almost identical populations

    Austria, Spain, Italy, London – I was highly impressed and had a utopian impression

    I returned from Austria a few days ago – the country is certainly very good, but it is definitely not a utopia. Negative moments that I saw as a tourist-peeling plaster on many buildings (for example, the Belvedere complex), Bauhaus-hruschobs that are built with incredible impudence in the historical center of Vienna, an incredible amount of graffiti everywhere. If we consider “multiculturalism” as a negative factor, Vienna is very multicultural (although it is inferior to Cologne and Stockholm in this respect). It is curious that on advertising in Austria is depicted almost exclusively white Chicks, unlike Cologne or Stockholm

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Europe Europa
    , @AP
  102. @RadicalCenter

    Well, young-earth creationism does sound pretty retarded, given the evidence at hand.

    The current methods of estimating geological dates are calibrated on the assumption that geological conditions of the Earth never changed.

    Which is an obviously false assumption.

    Not saying that young earth creationism is necessarily true, just pointing out that the ‘evidence’ against it is very slim and mostly ideology.

    • Replies: @another anon
  103. @anonymous coward

    Not saying that young earth creationism is necessarily true, just pointing out that the ‘evidence’ against it is very slim and mostly ideology.


    Well said.

    Unz.com decisively proved that (((climate physics))) (((nuclear physics))) and (((astronautics))) are nothing than big piles of lies.

    Shall we blindly trust {{{geology}}}?

    {{{Charles Lyell}}}, founder of modern geology was, after all, {{{Scottish}}}.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Lyell

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principles_of_Geology

    Be always vigilant, and always use {{{curly, shirt-like brackets}}} to mark {{{them}}}

    • Agree: melanf
    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  104. Bliss says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Very interesting results when one digs deeper. There are 3 european countries with lower PISA scores than black americans (one of them, Kosovo, is 51 points lower).

    On the other hand, even the highest scoring european country (Switzerland) has a lower PISA score than asian americans (about half of whom are south and southeast asians).

    • Replies: @Znzn
  105. Bliss says:
    @Bliss

    I forgot to include this link:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_murder_rate

    Here is how the 5 American cities (out of 50) on that list are ranked:

    St. Louis #15
    Baltimore #23
    San Juan #40 (this is actually in Puerto Rico which is not a state in the United States)
    Detroit #46
    New Orleans #50

    On the other hand Mexico has 15 cities on that list (with less than a third of the population). Of which 4 are in the top 5.

  106. Znzn says:
    @Bliss

    What is Michael Jordan’s or LeBron’s PISA score? Are East Asians doing anything well except scoring well in high school tests?

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  107. Bliss says:
    @Bliss

    The highest national murder rates in the World have one thing in common: they are all of overwhelmingly christian former european colonies that are still financially controlled by europeans.

    Take also the example of the Philippines, the most christian nation in Asia. It was a Spanish colony for many centuries (and an American colony for a few decades). It has the highest murder rate (8.4) in the most populous continent. One difference is that it’s economy is largely controlled by the chinese.

    So, should we blame the european legacy for the highest murder rates of the world? Why not?

    • Replies: @neutral
  108. neutral says:
    @Bliss

    The highest murder rates in the world happen in black places.

  109. @another anon

    Don’t be an idiot.

    The way geological events are dated in the current paradigm is obviously flawed, because the methods are calibrated using obviously false assumptions. (And part of the reason is that the issue really doesn’t matter much for doing real science.)

    The point isn’t that evangelicals are right (they’re not), the point is that whenever you hear hysterical shrieks about “settled science”, you can be 100% sure that you’re dealing with ideology, not science.

    Nobody shrieks that the “science is settled” when discussing Newton’s laws or organic chemistry. No, the “science” is only “settled” for darwinism or climate change or HBD or some other pseudo-scientific screed.

    • Replies: @another anon
  110. @neutral

    Broadly true, but most so called “nationalists” ignore that and prefer to come up with convoluted theories that Islamisation is to blame for rising rates of violent crime.

    In Europe especially so called “nationalists” tend to portray non-Muslim blacks as examples of good immigrants who should be welcomed, ie somehow “not like the Muslims” and that they fit in with the native culture apparently. Blacks are every European ethnic nationalists’ favourite token ethnic.

  111. @anonymous coward

    Nobody shrieks that the “science is settled” when discussing Newton’s laws or organic chemistry. No, the “science” is only “settled” for darwinism or climate change or HBD or some other pseudo-scientific screed.

    http://galileowaswrong.com

    There are many Youtube videos that prove beyond any doubt that (((Einstein))), [[[Newton]]] and |||Galileo||| were complete frauds.
    Unfortunately, there is no benefactor that would support this worthy cause with billions (like fossil fuel industry) or millions (like creationist churches).
    There is no one who pushes to teach the controversy, and this is sad.

  112. @neutral

    Hilariously wrong.

    Central and southern Africa actully have alarmingly low rates of homicide given the low HDI. At least one country, Zambia, has a USA-tier homicide rate. The Altai-Sayan + Buryatian + Amurian and Yakutian regions of Russia and meso America have way higher murder rates than black Africa.

    • Replies: @neutral
  113. ariel says:

    i dont know about poland but in the rest of the V4 countries a significant percentage of the crimes are committed by Gypsies.

  114. @Blinky Bill

    Europeans without much if any direct experience of blacks tend to view them in an idealised way. I think that is why things like rap music and basketball is so popular in many more homogeneous European countries, they see black American culture positively.

    Things like rap music and basketball has no where near the popularity with British whites that it does in many European countries, I think because most British whites have enough experience of blacks that they have no naive delusions about their “culture”.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  115. AP says:
    @Thulean Friend

    This is somewhat misleading. A better comparison would be US whites vs European natives.

    Thank you. Sailer didn’t do that, he only compared American by race to various countries.

    The comparison should be with Northern and Western European countries given that most US whites come from this background.

    Many Americans are Irish and Scotch-Irish, and Italian. America beats these places. It’s about tied with England, another major source. But many American whites are of German descent and the USA is well behind Germany.

    White America is largely Anglo/Anglicized and it does about as well as England itself.* It is not woefully uneducated.

    Contra claims of “underfunding”, the US also spends a huge amount of money per pupil

    USA is a rich country and spends a lot of money on everything. New American school buildings are very fancy and expensive.

    *I strongly suspect white New Englanders do much, much better than do natives of England itself. But Scotch-Irish from Appalachia probably also do worse than do people in modern Ireland.

  116. Pericles says:
    @Europe Europa

    yet consider a two-state solution in South Africa to be racist and basically unthinkable.

    Cruel, racist and unthinkable — after all, what would the blekks do without their gibs? Well, maybe they can sell “their country” to the Chinese a couple of times. Then it’s back to the bush.

  117. Pericles says:
    @prime noticer

    by living in East Europe, essentially you get USA circa 1980 tech levels and infrastructure, but USA circa 1950 demographics and culture. and that’s a trade a lot of people would make. heck, that’s the world our parents come from, and yes it was better.

    I lived through the 80s and it wasn’t that bad. No street shitting for example. I’m sure there are cheap airlines, plenty of mobile phones, and internet in Hungary too, and what did we add beyond that?

  118. Pericles says:
    @Europe Europa

    If memory serves, South Africa had a higher murder rate than Iraq … during the Iraq War.

  119. @songbird

    Shouldn’t the US have been a model about whom not to import? (I think this is a very interesting question)

    I mean, it seems pretty obvious to me, looking at the various black riots. There were many much earlier than 1967 and 1992. But those two were early enough to avoid a lot of this crap, and with TV footage, besides.

    Europeans bought the leftist lie that black violence in America was caused by oppression and racism. If only the Yanks weren’t so cruel, those negroes would be just as well behaved as you please.

    Oops…

  120. Beckow says:
    @prime noticer

    …by living in East Europe, essentially you get USA circa 1980 tech levels and infrastructure, but USA circa 1950 demographics

    I don’t see where you get that. In V4 infrastructure and tech levels, e.g. transportation, metro, cultural buildings, internet access, are either about the same as in US or substantially better (public transportation). People have a lot fewer i-Phones, but that’s true in France or Spain too.

    Regarding demographics: in 1950 US was 12% black and a few percent Hispanic. If you can find a similar non-European demographic in V4, let me know where it is.

    The problem in V4 are under-valued currencies that make travel expensive and generally much smaller housing (as it is in Europe in general). Plus the compradors running wild in all the big cities…sometimes the real thing in its home territory (like in US) is preferable.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  121. Nodwink says:

    A major psychological problem with native Europeans is their lack of understanding of the mentality of the Muslim invaders. Many young women have become accustomed to walking the streets in relatively low-crime environments. This is no longer possible.

    My aunt used to live in Redfern, a suburb of Sydney where the city’s Aboriginal population was concentrated. It was a myth that the suburb was chock full of Aborigines, with only Everleigh Street being dominated by them. If you were white, you simply never went near Everleigh Street; if you encountered a group of Aborigines elsewhere, you immediately crossed to the other side of the street.

    A Muslim who sees a woman walking alone down the street at night will attack that woman – this is a given. These people will eventually be thrown out of Europe; until then, the whites are going to have to change their behaviour.

  122. AP says:
    @Thulean Friend

    PPP = poor people’s parity. PPP matters more for measuring poverty, where almost all of your consumption is domestic. Yes, even as middle-class, your consumption will still mostly be domestic but who here seriously considers your rent or electrical bills to be QoL?

    Also restaurants, theater, locally produced things such as building materials or clothes, local resorts, etc. IPhones, cars and trips to Western Europe or Maldives are not as significant in terms of quality of life as you insist.

    • Agree: Dreadilk, Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
  123. @Beckow

    I don’t agree with that statement either, the US is hardly known as being the pinnacle of a high tech society overall. The US road network has also had no major upgrades since the major expansion after WW2, the road network in Eastern Europe is mostly much newer.

    In many ways the US is quite dated, for instance, the US is basically the only country I’ve been to in the last few years where generally you still have to manually sign the receipt to make a card purchase, almost everywhere else chip and pin is the norm, including Eastern Europe. The US also tends to be relatively slow on implementing new technologies, it was slow on implementing 4G and now it’s behind many countries on 5G as well, most notably China.

  124. @EldnahYm

    Interesting logic that anyone who decided to return to his country of birth was “worthless.”
    Keep digging that hole.

    Just curious, how are your countries of ancestry doing these days?

  125. Dreadilk says:
    @Thulean Friend

    You are a human version of a domesticated cat.

  126. Dreadilk says:
    @Dmitry

    You don’t know what you are talking about. Poor people markets in Western countries are equal to dog shit. Poor countries have the same tendency. This is why when you show a nice shop in Russia or Ukraine the other side will point out how only the rich shop there. This is not to mention how locality makes a big difference.

    I assume PPP either systematically ignores that for every country or has a way of taking account of that.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  127. @A123

    Unfortunately, I have to agree with you Agent 123.

  128. Wency says:
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    Stats like that on Young Earth Creationism are talked up by intellectuals who don’t understand how regular people think. Most people just don’t care or have any curiosity about history, or cosmology, or any intellectual endeavor that doesn’t have immediate bearing on their lives. Even people who are smart enough to graduate from a typical 4-year college.

    If asked about the Earth’s origins, which they haven’t spent so much as 30 seconds thinking about over the past 20 years, they will dig up a vaguely-remembered answer from their childhood. If brought up in a somewhat Christian background, they will often repeat the story from Genesis. If they were brought up in a secular background, they’ll repeat the story about the Big Bang. They might even sort of believe both and not have given any thought to contradictions.

    In the end, it’s just an irrelevant trivia question, like recalling whether a poem was written by Byron or Shelley, used here as a status marker.

    • Replies: @another anon
  129. fnn says:
    @Znzn

    Aren’t most Western European (at least) whites well past the age when one is likely to commit violent crime? And remember Hispanic offenders are almost always counted as white in US crime stats.

    • Replies: @Znzn
  130. Most whites are race cucks, even Eastern Europeans. By many accounts even Poland is now full of Indians and even blacks. Yeah they signal against Muslims but it’s only about religion, when it comes to race they are as cucked as Westerners are.

    The only reason Eastern Europe isn’t inundated like Western Europe is because it is perceived to have less to offer by immigrants, not because of any inherent ability or will to keep them out and as those countries become ever wealthier and more developed, more and more non-whites are going there.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    , @Korenchkin
  131. Znzn says:
    @fnn

    I included states that are 90 percent White.

  132. @Wency

    In the end, it’s just an irrelevant trivia question, like recalling whether a poem was written by Byron or Shelley, used here as a status marker.

    Creationism is not irrelevant.

    Imagine young bright man raised in creationist church that believes in the literal truth of the Bible.

    Then, he goes to university to study physics, biology, geology and paleontology, and learns that everything he was taught since childhood was big pile of crock. There were no literal six days of creation, there was no worldwide Noah’s flood.
    In theory, he can join mainstream church that holds allegorical interpretation of the book of Genesis.
    In practice, he will, most of the time, angered how he had been deceived his whole life, became militant atheist and will use all his skills in preaching and persuasion he learned in the church to fight against God.

    There are many such cases.

    https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-lost-their-faith-and-became-atheists-because-of-Darwin-s-theory-of-evolution

    An you cannot stop it. You need geologists to find oil for your big cars.

    Creationism is not irrelevant, it is the best way to demolish Christian faith ever devised and to ensure it is believed only by most ignorant and illiterate rednecks.

    • Replies: @Wency
    , @anonymous coward
  133. Znzn says:
    @Europe Europa

    You cannot have race consciousness without some form of superiority ideology that your race is superior to others and mixing with inferior races with compromise your superiority, it may not have been a good move psychologically speaking for White Nationalists to get rid of the white people are superior to other races psychological meme.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  134. @Thulean Friend

    You’re incredible! You’ve just found a new reason to justify the invasion of your own country:

    Becoming a migrant is literally the most powerful act that you can do to reduce world inequality.

    And your only worry is that there will be less blond and blue eyed people. You sound like a typical arrogant Swede pontificating here about what is right and wrong but what you advocate is all wrong, wrong, wrong! If this is how most of your countrymen feel, then I think all of Africa should move to Sweden and destroy your country as soon as possible as the sooner you all shut up the better. There is obviously nothing anyone can learn from you and copying you in any way will just be the death of nations. Honestly, I feel like giving up trying to tell people “don’t do that!” Yeah, what’s the point?

    Now if you wrote that Sweden should help African nations to decrease world inequality by helping them develop, like you and all your well meaning buddies going over to Africa and educating people there, helping them get projects off the ground, assisting them to reach for the Swedish standard in their own countries by utilising the enormous natural wealth of Africa since it is far more resources rich than Sweden, then maybe I could give you some benefit of the doubt. But you seem to think that you can uplift them by moving them to Sweden since you obviously can’t do it over in Africa. And you won’t be able to do that either, they’ll just drag you down. Incredible! Where did you leave your brain?

  135. @Znzn

    Obviously yes. East Asians are increasingly dominating “prestigious” universities and thereafter some important and highly compensated professions, out of proportion to their percentage of the local or national population.

    Almost all of the primary-care doctors, specialist doctors (and surgeons), and dentists who have treated our family over the past decade or so in California have been Chinese, both in the City of LA and in the suburbs.

    East Asians also appear to be heavily, and disproportionately, represented among lawyers, both in private practice and in government agencies and courts here (e.g. prosecutors, public defenders, court staff attorneys).

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  136. Wency says:
    @another anon

    The thing about creationism is churches don’t talk about it very much. I’ve attended a wide range of Southern Baptist and conservative evangelical churches, and I can’t recall a single conversation around Biblical creation. It’s also not a topic that popular Christian books, periodicals, or websites discuss much, except perhaps to bring up the Argument from Design. And Christian music doesn’t touch on it it.

    I would agree that the perception of the scientific superiority of atheism (or intellectual inferiority of Christianity) has been important in attacking the faith, particularly among bright young people who perceive themselves as smarter than those around them. It’s a case of looking for Christianity’s weakest link intellectually and hammering it as hard as they can. So Christians need responses to these attacks. But to be clear, the details of the Biblical creation are being brought up mostly by atheists and Christians responding to atheists, not by Christians among themselves.

    But rather than atheism, the strongest competition to the faith seems to be new-agey “spiritual but not religious” thinking. Then there’s MTD, liberal Christianity, Prosperity Gospel, etc. These fuzzier beliefs are easier for the masses to digest and easier to live by, and they pick them up from more places on TV and so on. Atheism is for a certain kind of disagreeable white male or NE Asian nerd. It’s not a doctrine for regular people, all of whom carry some spiritual ideas or superstitions.

  137. @another anon

    There were no literal six days of creation

    Of course there weren’t. Read Genesis 1, it literally says that the sun, moon and stars (and, by extension, timekeeping and calendars) were created on the fourth day of creation.

  138. EldnahYm says:
    @Bliss

    And Polish immigrants, Greek immigrants, Jewish immigrants etcetera, right?

    Undoubtedly.

    Such American Nordicism was the inspiration behind Hitler’s nazism which resulted in the horrible deaths of tens of millions of Europeans during WWII.

    What resulted in the deaths of tens of millions of Europeans was the decision of Hitler to invade a bunch of countries. Pan-Germanism and delusions of German superiority had more to do with that than Nordicism. If all Hitler had done was kill a bunch of German and Austrian Jews, the impact on the rest of the world would probably have been negligible(the impact on Germany and Austria would of course have been positive).

  139. neutral says:
    @JohnPlywood

    Hilariously clueless.

    African is violent, there is no more violent place, whatever “crime stats” they have (which are still the highest) there are many more murder that will never be recorded because their society is just not advanced enough to record it all.

  140. EldnahYm says:
    @Bliss

    It wasn’t just the Irish, all northwestern european whites in the West Coast were murderously violent towards the chinese:

    Let’s quote the very first sentence of the Wikipedia article, but:

    The Chinese massacre of 1871 was a race riot that occurred on October 24, 1871, in Los Angeles, California, when a mob of around 500 white and mestizo persons entered Chinatown and attacked, robbed, and murdered Chinese residents.

    Note the “mestizo persons” part. Funny you left that out.

  141. @Bliss

    “And Polish immigrants, Greek immigrants, Jewish immigrants etcetera, right?”

    Poles were fine. they make good Americans, and out of all the slavs, they were the best fit.

    the problem with the Italians as EldnahYm said was that most of them were from southern Italy. so America took in millions of useless people. the FBI had to be created in part to eliminate the organized criminals from Italy. it took about 80 years to do this. but Italians are now solid Americans on average.

    Jews, of course, are like HIV or cancer cells. they are death for your country. deliberately saving them and then bringing them into your society is like deliberately infecting yourself with a terminal disease. yeah, there are good jewish people. so what? the end result is always the same. millions of jews in your country means your country ends eventually.

  142. EldnahYm says:
    @neutral

    Not entirely true. Much of Central America has high homicide rates.

  143. @neutral

    Bullshit. African police are assusted by United Nations secuirty forces and have police depatments comparable to V4 countries or Russia.

  144. @RadicalCenter

    You’re smoking crack and huffing ozone simultaneously. East Asians are very underrepresented as lawyers everywhere. They’re notoriously shitty at that kind of profession.

  145. @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    “They don’t realize that today lack of government means “corporations replace you with h1b, send your jobs to mexico and then big tech replaces the government and censors you.”

    Corporations are creations of governments, specifically non-libertarian governments.

    Also, the 400 million or so killed by governments in the 20th century were killed by just about every type of government except libertarian. And don’t forget the $100 trillion or so of wealth destroyed in wars, stolen, or wasted by governments, but not by libertarian ones.

    Look in a mirror, you are the problem, not the solution.

    Your mindset is incapable of producing a solution, just more of the same.

  146. songbird says:
    @Thulean Friend

    In an age of smartphones and (soon) universal internet, living apart is no longer an antidote to hurt pride.

    This is why I propose a Great Firewall and perhaps some percentage of current inequality expenditures being spent on cheaply adapting entertainment, to give the illusion of a cultural sphere. And, of course, they would have the ability to write their own history.

    If you think back through most of human history, there was plenty of inequality in places like ancient Rome, Persia, the various Chinese dynasties and so on.

    This is certainly true, and there were many extreme examples. The Inca Emperor would spit out seeds into someone’s hand, for it was deemed sacrilegious for his spit to touch the ground directly. The Ottoman Emperor supposedly had his harem do a dance, neigh like horses, and then get down on all fours.

    And I suppose there were some pretty alien elites – some practiced skull deformation. Others spoke different languages that the people they ruled.

    I read somewhere that something like 77% of human inequality is essentially explained by your place of birth and citizenship.

    Isn’t this just a delusion of economists? I mean, doesn’t it presuppose that you could move everyone and see a dramatic economic benefit? It seems to me that there will be significantly diminishing returns, as the target country’s institutions would likely collapse, and you would have increasing inequality there.

    I think the psychological peak for world government was the 1950s. That was when it seemed like technology would really take off, and we would be building things like space elevators. And of course, it was before a lot of African home-rule.

    But when I think of it now, I don’t think of technological possibilities. I imagine US Congress, only with a lower average IQ, and even more partisanship, and even more wealth transfer and migration. And I imagine even lower technological abilities than now.

  147. songbird says:
    @Agathoklis

    I think women fighting each other is pretty atrocious, almost as bad as when they fight men calling themselves women. Ideally, when women compete, it should serve the interests of their sex, and the race. Therefore, competitions should primarily be in womanly arts, such things as cooking, sewing, or singing.

    I’ve heard of pankration before, but know of it only foggily. It would be nice to see a general revival of other European martial arts too.

    Many people operate under the assumption that it was only Eastern Asia that had such elaborate fighting techniques, but I believe there are many medieval, European fighting manuals that survive.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
  148. @Europe Europa

    “the Muslim invasion in Europe” certainly doesn’t help the crime levels, but when it comes to homicide the black population still rules. The only good news is for whites is that they tend to kill each other (of course this could be because most of the whites have fled).

    “In the last 10 years, since the Somalis and the Congolese came to London, they taught us a whole new level of violence”

    https://web.archive.org/web/20190328225442/http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/how-londons-knife-culture-is-being-fueled-by-jargon-social-media-and-music-a3579396.html

  149. @neutral

    The murder rate in South Africa is among the highest in the world, so either South Africa is an anomaly in Sub-Saharan Africa or it’s simply that South Africa is the only black African country that has the infrastructure and institutions to record accurate stats.

    I’m not entirely sure, but I would guess that the latter is the case.

  150. @Europe Europa

    By many accounts

    Whose accounts?
    Retards in your discord chat are not a credible source

  151. @Andy

    “Some whites turned to Libertarianism in the 1960s when they saw all the government programs favoring minorities. But the remedy was worse than the disease, Libertarians have been 100% for open borders, and they have sow confusion within the right on this issue.”

    Another clueless poster. Small government and freedom is worse than big government and tyranny.

    Libertarians would support open borders only if certain conditions were met.

    Perhaps you should do some research before demonstrating your ignorance to the world.

  152. @Znzn

    That’s the problem, people who oppose immigration, especially non-white immigration are essentially saying that non-whites are in some way inferior to white people. They often try to conceal that by saying things like “their culture isn’t compatible”, or “their way of life is too different”, but essentially what they are saying is non-whites are inferior.

    The reality is most people consider superior/inferior racial rhetoric to be unacceptable nowadays, even most who would consider themselves nationalists. As you say ethnic nationalists have tried to reinvent themselves by dropping the “racial superiority” rhetoric and claiming that the races are different, but equal, but ultimately that isn’t a very strong or decisive message and may even be counter-productive. It’s very rare to hear real ethnic nationalist rhetoric these days, about the strongest opposition to mass immigration you hear now is statements like “Oh well they can come if they get jobs and assimilate to our culture and way of life”.

  153. @Europe Europa

    Bullshit. South Africa’s murder rate is 34 per 100,000. That’s about half the rate of mesoAmerican countries like El Salvador and the Tyva Republic in Russia (in 1995 the murder rate there was actually over 130 per 100,000).

  154. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    how did you see the difference between Germany and Austria??? Both countries have rich (and similar) architectural heritage, similar terrain, and almost identical populations

    In Austria, I visited and stayed in all over Salzburg, Vienna, Klagenfurt, many years ago.

    Whereas in Germany, I have only been in Berlin, in winter, also many years ago. These places were very different.

    returned from Austria a few days ago – the country is certainly very good, but it is definitely not a utopia. Negative moments that I saw as a tourist-peeling plaster on many buildings (for example, the Belvedere complex), Bauhaus-hruschobs that are built with incredible impudence in the historical center of Vienna, an incredible amount of graffiti everywhere. If we consider “multiculturalism” as a negative factor, Vienna is very multicultural

    I have not been in Austria since many years ago in the past.

    However, for children, in summer, my impression of Austria, was that the country was a utopia, in Salzburg, Vienna and Alps.

    There was not any “multiculturalism”, in my memory. The cities are safe, and teenagers can or could travel all over by themselves, easily navigating. The summer’s climate in Austria seemed to be very warm and sunny.

    Gelato in Austria, seemed to be the same quality as Italy. Lakes are beautiful, mountains are beautiful, forests are beautiful (forests all over mountains). Austrian society seemed rich and modern. Austrians seemed civilized and with a high cultural level. Cities like Salzburg also had a “festival atmosphere” in the summer because of the music festivals there

    ^ Well perhaps I just have naive, rose-tinted glasses about it. I have not visited this country as an adult.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @melanf
  155. @songbird

    This guy pumps Pepto-bismol directly in to his stomach via his “booty hole” (quoted verbatim).

  156. @melanf

    But how did you see the difference between Germany and Austria??? Both countries have rich (and similar) architectural heritage, similar terrain, and almost identical populations

    Germans and Austrians seem far from identical in my opinion. Austrians have a very distinct dialect and culture, they hate to be called “Germans”, who they refer to as “Prussians”.

    Saying they’re identical is like saying England and Ireland are identical, most people are aware that despite the superficial similarities in architecture, terrain, language, etc, England and Ireland are very different societies.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  157. Dmitry says:
    @Dreadilk

    on’t know what you are talking about.

    ?

    Poor people markets in Western countries are equal to dog

    I don’t know what you mean by “Poor people markets”.

    In Western Europe, UK and Ireland, for example, there is a shop called Aldi. (As a surreal thing, I had studied for a couple of weeks for IELTs, with disruptive German man in the class, whose family was owner of this supermarket chain.)

    In Aldi, food quality is excellent, and luxurious. But prices are low, and for many product categories prices are not so different than supermarkets in Russia (possibly some certain foods types can be purchased in Aldi even cheaper than in many supermarkets in Russia).

    With Aldi, you realize that a lot of the PPP adjustment for food between different countries, does not make sense (you can buy cheap food in countries of supposedly high food prices).

    In rich countries like England, many people are specifically choosing to go to far more expensive “status symbol” supermarkets, where the price can be twice or more than in Aldi.

    This is just a voluntary decision created by countries like this having such a large section of population receiving very high salaries, and then wanting to spend more on food. There is a possibly to get cheap food in countries like England, in a similar price as in Russia. But as a result of overly high salaries in a large part of the English population, many people want to spend more than they would if they were logical actors.

    In PPP figures, they will then adjust for the difference in food prices. But here PPP figure can be misleading – the higher food price, is partly a result of wealthy people wanting to spend more. So it is not an indicator that they are relatively less wealthy that PPP adjustment for food prices would claim.

    PPP adjustment for food seems to imply some rational “homo economicus” customer behaviour, but a large part of the price difference in food between countries is because of conspicuous consumption of the bourgeoisie.


    Here for example is a price of small slice of cake in London. For currency conversion, this is around $6 for a tiny piece of cake.

    Is this a sign that London incomes need to be adjusted downwards to explain higher prices?

    Of course not, because you can buy the same cake for $0,30 if you go to Aldi in the same country. Neither is the price of flour, sugar, very different between countries.

    Price of flour and sugar is determined by international markets, and will be relatively constant across different countries.

    So what is the real interpretation of the high price of the cake? – The price is high because the cake shop is near where high income people live, who want conspicuous consumption.

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Tusk
  158. Mitleser says:
    @Europe Europa

    Austrians are just separatist Bavarians who were not separated from Germany until the late 19th century.

    Dialects from the German Language area 1900

    • Agree: melanf
    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  159. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    Gelato in Austria, seemed to be the same quality as Italy

    I recall the best gelato I had in my life was in Innsbruck. But I have never been to Italy.

  160. AP says:
    @melanf

    I returned from Austria a few days ago – the country is certainly very good, but it is definitely not a utopia. Negative moments that I saw as a tourist-peeling plaster on many buildings (for example, the Belvedere complex), Bauhaus-hruschobs that are built with incredible impudence in the historical center of Vienna, an incredible amount of graffiti everywhere. If we consider “multiculturalism” as a negative factor, Vienna is very multicultural (although it is inferior to Cologne and Stockholm in this respect).

    Somewhat strange impression. I was in Vienna last summer. It was certainly more multicultural than your native Saint Petersburg (or Kiev, for that matter), but it was no more multicultural than Moscow. This surprised me. Only place I saw many non-Europeans was in the Naschmarkt.

    Of course in summer the city was loaded with Russian tourists. My wife joked that Russian tourists have abandoned former Europe (Paris, London) for real Europe. Maybe there are fewer tourists now so local diversity is more noticeable.

    Small Austrian towns by lakes and mountains are close to paradise.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @melanf
  161. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    Aldis is also in America.

    The last time I was in one, I saw a bag of flour that a rat had evidently chewed. But I don’t want to cast aspersions on the brand. I like cheap supermarkets. Sometimes, depending on the ownership and debt structure of the company, the employees are even paid better.

    And I have seen rats in many places, including pricier supermarkets. I think it mainly has something to do with local geography. A McDonald’s that I knew as a boy supposedly closed down because it was repeatedly infested by them.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  162. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    To the extent of a change of Russian tourism patterns within the Schengen Area, it is because of people becoming more price-sensitive after the devaluation of currency in 2014 (this is a devaluation of Russian currency relative to currencies like the Euro), rather than any special change of preferences.

    For (outside the Schengen Area) London, there are additional barriers for the visa.

    The cost of the tourist visa to visit the UK is 3 times more than the cost of the visa to visit entire Schengen Area (i.e. 26 countries combined).

    Moreover, application for a tourist visa for the UK requires tourists to visit their visa centre to give biometric data (fingerprints) to a private company which works for the British government – these offices are only available in a few cities in Russia – , and they could still reject giving you a visa after you pay the money and give them your bank account and employment statements.

  163. @Mitleser

    Bavarians are culturally and linguistically distinct from most Germans and I agree are closer to Austria culturally and linguistically. Separatist sentiment is not insignificant in Bavaria and both share similar sentiment in regards to North Germany/Berlin in particular.

    Using an old map of “German dialects” to decide who counts as “German” is not very accurate as judging by that map you might as well say the Dutch are German too, and we all know what most Dutch people would think of that. In fact, using this logic we might as well say that the Scottish, Welsh and Irish are also “English peoples”.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  164. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    I think, on average, American people might be more culturally “price-sensitive” or “bargain looking” shoppers, than English people. (Although not compared to some nationalities like Spanish.)

    In cities in England, there are far more costly, luxury supermarkets, than could be imagined from a logical view. There are even multiple chains of luxury supermarkets fighting against each other in the same area of the same cities.

    Perhaps people feel a lot of social pressure, that paying excessive fees in expensive supermarkets is an important way to not be proletarian, or show you are not proletarian. It’s like paying for a golf club membership, but by your choice of going to a supermarket that price-gorges you.

    In America, the most similar thing is “Whole Foods”? When people shop in “Whole Foods”, it’s a sign you are receiving more salary than you have time in your life to spend in an intelligent way, instead of buying coconut water for $10 each bottle.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @songbird
  165. Tusk says:
    @Dmitry

    Aldi is in Australia too and the prices in Aldi are certainly on average 20% less for the same products in supermarkets. But looking at the total market share of supermarkets Aldi had 9.2% of the marketshare in 2018 compared to 37.2% for the leading supermarket, and 30.3% for the second rival chain. So this means that 2/3 of Australian consumers are wilfully paying 20-25% extra on their food costs simply because they think Aldi is “cheap” when comparisons between the product quality in all 3 stores is roughly the same.

    In reference to Songbird at #163 the wage for an Aldi worker is around $25 (probably 25% better than similar workplaces) an hour and gets to sit on a seat while working (unsure if this is the same globally) but it is impressive that they can provide high wages and low prices.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  166. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    price-gorges you.

    Oops, this word should be written as “price gouges”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging

    But it’s not really appropriate because it’s not a result of lack of supply.

  167. Dmitry says:
    @Tusk

    2/3 of Australian consumers are wilfully paying 20-25% extra on their food costs simply because they think Aldi is “cheap” when comparisons between the product quality in all 3 stores is roughly the same.

    It’s definitely a large part of it is willful, with the motive of “conspicuous consumption”.

    Currently, being in the supermarket is very public, and replaced parading in the town square. If this was changed, and then no-one could see which shops you were going to, – i.e. if shopping was private, like voting is supposed to be – then we can hypothesize customer numbers would fall a lot for some of these luxury supermarkets.

    wage for an Aldi worker is around $25 (probably 25% better than similar workplaces) an hour and gets to sit on a seat while working (unsure if this is the same globally)

    Australia seems to have some of highest salaries (or high labour cost, from the negative side) for these kinds of jobs, in the world.

    For example, I think Australia has the highest MacDonald’s salary.

    In nominal terms, MacDonald’s in Australia pays $18 an hour for a same job, that MacDonald’s in Russia pays its workers $1,90 an hour. Hiring 1 MacDonald’s worker in Australia, will cost the same as can be hiring 9,5 MacDonald workers in Russia.

    So probably MacDonald’s in Australia will have a great motive to increase automation and hire less workers.

    • Replies: @216
    , @Tusk
  168. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    In America, the most similar thing is “Whole Foods”?

    Yes. They bought up a lot of the smaller similar chains, as part of their expansion strategy. Maybe, pricey grocery chains are a natural target for monopoly?

    It is very strange to think that they came out of Texas originally, though Austin is different politically. I wonder if it had anything to do with the oil boom? Probably.

    It is such an odd phenomenon because, generally, no one sees you eat groceries. If I could stand in front of one and hand out sociological surveys, I would.

    Organic foods evoke the dietary taboos of the Brahmans. I don’t know whether to think that class is the primary motivator – as in, people not wanting to mix with the hoi polloi – or whether it is some other reason entirely, perhaps something that clusters with class.

    I wonder whether their spread is somehow a harbinger of deeper Brazilification, even if nobody is conscious of it. If people don’t actually go there to avoid blacks, but for other reasons, yet perhaps it is still a nascent Brahman thing.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  169. 216 says: • Website
    @Dmitry

    IIRC, there are loopholes in AUS labor law that allow these employers to employ minors at significantly less rates. So that’s what they do, which compared to the US is actually not a bad idea, our youth unemployment is higher than it was pre-recession.

    Otoh, Australia has recurrent “wage theft”, where employers are far more willing to violate the law than in the US.

    https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/

    • Replies: @Tusk
  170. Tusk says:
    @216

    It’s a sliding scale of wages based on your age. For instance at Woolworths, the leading supermarket chain, pays A$21 an hour for weekday work at the lowest level. But if you are 16 or less you only get 50% of this, each year you receive a 10% increase until you reach 20 when you get the full 100% of $21. Though different industries and companies have different methods of how this works, and different wages. Overall I like it as a system as unskilled young labour gets into the market at a good wage rate, since they most likely will live with parents and have no bills so low wages go further, but adults still receive a decent wage. Though some industries are notorious for hiring children in large amounts and pressuring them to quit once their wages become too high.

  171. Tusk says:
    @Dmitry

    Companies like McDonald’s and supermarkets are already semi-automated with self-serve checkout’s to order food or pay for groceries. I’m sure this will expand more into other industries, but I know for certain stock loss to theft still requires employees to monitor checkouts, so not fully automated, but one employee can still monitor and assist 10 self-serve checkouts.

    Interesting about the Russian wage for McDonalds. Is it really $1.90, US I assume you mean? Looking at the Big Mac Index for Jan 2020 it lists Russian Big Mac price at US$2.2 which would mean an employee would have to work for over an hour to afford 1 BM. But Australia pays around US$7 to kids and $13 to adults per hour worked, and has BM price at US$4.45 meaning a child can pay for 1.5 an hour and an adult almost 3. What is the average price for a fast food meal in Russia vs percentage of wage?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  172. melanf says:
    @AP

    Somewhat strange impression. I was in Vienna last summer. It was certainly more multicultural than your native Saint Petersburg (or Kiev, for that matter), but it was no more multicultural than Moscow.

    I can’t say for Moscow, but there is a constant presence in Vienna of a large mass of non-European migrants (mostly migrants from the middle East). These migrants were everywhere – in the hotel staff, among tram passengers, among metro passengers, among zoo workers….There are relatively few black migrants (especially in comparison with Cologne), but they are still noticeable. Salzburg, on the other hand, looked homogeneously European, which is to be expected.

    When I returned to St. Petersburg, I did not immediately understand what I was worried about in the metro – the complete absence of middle Eastern faces to which I was used in Austria.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Thulean Friend
  173. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    In Austria, I visited and stayed in all over Salzburg, Vienna, Klagenfurt, many years ago.

    Whereas in Germany, I have only been in Berlin

    In this case, it is more the difference between different parts of the German world than the difference between Germany and Austria. If you were comparing Munich and Berlin instead of Vienna and Berlin, you would probably have the same sense of Munich’s superiority

  174. @Europe Europa

    South Africa is an anomaly in Sub-Saharan Africa

    This is true. South Africa is the place where Bantu colonizing forces met with European colonizing forces. This happened 200 years ago, and the conflict is still not over. (Even though the Bantus are currently winning by a huge margin.)

    The place will mellow down once they finally win their “cold war” and ethnically cleanse the European colonizers.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  175. Mitleser says:
    @Europe Europa

    It is from the last century when the German nation state already existed, a valid source that shows that the border between Austria and Bavaria was political, not linguistic-cultural.

    you might as well say the Dutch are German too, and we all know what most Dutch people would think of that.

    They used to be German too.
    Note how the term Dutch is similar to the German word for German, Deutsch.

    The other nations of the British Islands were annexed/conquered by the English, they are not spin-offs from the English people.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  176. @Mitleser

    The other nations of the British Islands were annexed/conquered by the English, they are not spin-offs from the English people.

    Most Scots are, the Scots dialect is either categorised as a dialect of English or a separate branch of the “Anglic” languages. Gaelic is only spoken in the Highlands and descends from invaders from Ireland originally which is why Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic are so similar.

    The Scottish could be considered very much a “spin off” of the English people, they’re certainly no less different to the English than the Dutch are to the Germans. I get very tired of continually hearing my nation and people labelled and berated as uniquely colonialists and oppressors when England was no different to any other major European nation in that sense.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  177. AP says:
    @melanf

    I can’t say for Moscow, but there is a constant presence in Vienna of a large mass of non-European migrants (mostly migrants from the middle East). These migrants were everywhere – in the hotel staff, among tram passengers, among metro passengers, among zoo workers

    My rough estimate was that Vienna and Moscow both had roughly 10% non-European faces. I was expecting more than that in Vienna, having heard about what was going on in Germany and France.

    Vienna’s non Europeans were mostly Middle-easterners with a small but noticeable number of Africans (my interaction with these was very positive). In Moscow it was Central Asians and Caucasians. Viennese middle-easterners were more likely to be veiled.

    My aunt in Moscow took an early morning subway for the first time in many years (when there are many menial workers). She said there were so many Tadjiks, at least 20, that she felt like she was in Paris 🙂

  178. @anonymous coward

    When I’ve discussed South African apartheid vs Israeli apartheid with white liberals, the more intellectually honest ones have told me that in their opinion the stats show that blacks are just as likely to be victims of black violent crime in South Africa as whites are.

    In contrast, they say that in Israel/Palestine, Arab acts of violence clearly disproportionately target Jews rather than fellow Arabs, so this gives Jews the moral justification to be separate from Arabs in their opinion, whereas in the case of South Africa violence is a societal problem and therefore not something that gives whites the same moral justification to be separate. That’s basically the opinion of most white liberals I’ve spoken to about it, at least when they don’t just instantly dismiss me as a racist.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  179. @AP

    Vienna’s non Europeans were mostly Middle-easterners with a small but noticeable number of Africans (my interaction with these was very positive).

    Blacks in Europe seem to be more benign than those in Anglo countries (US and UK). In Europe violent crime seems to be associated almost exclusively with Middle Easterners/North Africans, whereas in Anglo countries the association of violent crime is more with blacks.

    I’ve never heard French, Germans, etc, make much of a big deal about blacks. It’s Middle Eastern/North African types who they see as the problem.

    • Agree: JohnPlywood
  180. @Europe Europa

    Apartheid in South Africa was a classic case of “cheap labor” and “crops rotting in the fields” cuckery.

    Comparisons to Israel are silly.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
  181. @anonymous coward

    Aren’t Palestinians in Israel often used as cheap labour though? I’ve read that they get day passes to work on building sites and other menial jobs in Israel similar to the “pass laws” in South Africa during apartheid.

    I somehow can’t imagine Jews doing much of their own menial labour.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @Dmitry
  182. songbird says:

    I think indicators of lower-level types of violence are probably better. Imagine a graph of theft, where wealth transfer to migrants was included.

  183. Mitleser says:
    @Europe Europa

    Sounds more like that Scots are the fusion of English and Gaelic people, sort of like old bicultural Canada on the other side of the Atlantic.

    I don’t think the English are that different from other major European nations.
    They are less worse than the French, the closest other major European nation.

  184. Mitleser says:
    @Europe Europa

    They are, but most of them were replaced by migrant workers.

    After 1989, importing workers started to be perceived as the answer to Israel’s difficulties, even as a panacea to solve many of its problems. It was supposed to help reduce the presence of Palestinians and thus increase personal security; it was supposed to solve housing problems for new immigrants thanks to the work of this new cheap labor force; it was even supposed to help advancing the “peace process” by increasing separation between Israelis and Palestinians (Bartram, 1998: 304). Along with this new course of action, a radical turn was taken with the increase of Palestinian terrorist activity. In March 1993, the government announced a general closure of the Territories. The employers accused the government of depriving them of their labor force and they initiated a trial at the Supreme Court. The government capitulated and agreed to issue several permits to foreign workers before the end of the trial. Afterwards, the number of permits issued to foreign workers increased following a clear pattern. After each terrorist attack, the government would close the borders; employers would ask for more foreign workers; the government would comply and grant about 20,000 permits each time (Bartram, 1998: 314).

    Between 1989 and 1996, the number of work permits given to Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza decreased almost ten times, while work permits issued to non-Palestinian workers increased more than thirty times. From about 7 % of the employees in Israel, Palestinians came to represent less than 1 %, while the percentage of foreign workers went from 0.2 % to 5 % – from 105,000 to 19,000 and from 3,400 to 103,000 permits respectively (Berthomière, 2006). Those numbers show how the foreign workers obviously replaced the Palestinian workers.

    https://journals.openedition.org/bcrfj/6398

  185. @AP

    I agree with those numbers.

    I am good friends with a woman from Vienna. She says that that the migrants have started becoming problematic in the past 2-3 years ago, which is when the first cases of bicycle thieves snatching mobiles – a very widespread crime in London – first started appearing there.

  186. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    generally, no one sees you eat groceries.

    Eating groceries might be more private (just your family, friends or housemates see what you buy).

    However, going to supermarket is a public and physical activity, aside from being a regular activity for most people. It’s not like a virtual activity like visiting a website

    So, I’m not so surprised, shopping in a supermarket became such aa status conscious area in England or America, and that people identify own identity by the brand of supermarket they visit.

    Organic foods evoke the dietary taboos of the Brahmans. I don’t know whether to think that class is the primary

    It’s also like you said, that eating luxury food – and organic is the most luxurious and expensive food, – is just a typical caste difference.

    Historically, what you eat,is one of the main differences of caste, and access to better food is one of the special features, of being in an elite one.

    Until the 20th century, only aristocrats and bourgeoisie were usually eating red meat.

    For normal people, you could eat red meat if you illegally hunted for animals on someone’s land, or if one of your working animals died. But even something simple like some fish you got in the local stream, is quite a luxury of specific seasons, that could be a lot of work to get such fish.

    On the other hand, the rich minority of people were always eating all kinds of meats.

    I wonder whether their spread is somehow a harbinger of deeper Brazilification, even if nobody is conscious of it.

    I don’t know how they divide themselves in Brazil, but the English are probably the people most obsessed with luxury supermarkets- Whole Foods is quite consistent with the anglosaxon nature of America.

    E.g. English “middle class” supermarket.

    £1 = $1,3 – soa small jar of chocolate spread at 4:00 in the video is “reduced to clear” from $9.70 to a “bargain” of $7.22

    This is why there is a false impression about expensive food in countries like England. It’s because a country with such a high proportion of bourgeois people, which are choosing to go to such luxury shopping chains.

    It’s not because the cost of flour or orange is intrinsically higher (a lot of food costs are determined by international markets prices, and should be the same between countries).

    • Replies: @songbird
  187. Dmitry says:
    @Europe Europa

    For Arab-Israelis (it’s around 25% of Israeli citizens), there is a positive discrimination in some ways.

    For example, university admission in Israel is easier for Arab-Israelis, there are special scholarships for them, there are lowered admission criteria, and they avoid conscription to the army.

    Israel also imports cheap Palestinian labour from the West Bank, however, they are viewed as like gastarbeiters from a different country. (Palestinians in the West Bank are perceived as being from a different country.)

    There’s also thousands of Jordanians working in Israel as gastarbeiters. And there are all kinds of Africans working everywhere as gastarbeiters. And there are Filipinos and Thai gastarbeiters, and I saw a lot of Central Asians there.

    Most of the Jews in Israel are immigrants from third world countries anyway, so they are not doing such sophisticated jobs.

    High prices in Israel are not a result of lack of labour supply, but because of import substitution policy they follow, in combination with the situation of being an economic island where imports arrive by sea.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
  188. Dmitry says:
    @Tusk

    Macdonald’s usually tries to pay the minimum salary to workers, as they can in each country. So that’s why Big Mac index should be useful to track cost of low quality labour, to some extent, between countries.

    But another proportion of the Big Mac cost – things like cost of flour and beef – should be determined more by international commodity prices, and shouldn’t vary so much between large countries that don’t have some difficult tariffs or import costs.

    Big Mac index will probably become less reliable or interesting in the future, if Macdonald’s increases its automation, and the labour proportion of its cost will become a smaller proportion of the total.

  189. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    For normal people, you could eat red meat if you illegally hunted for animals on someone’s land

    My great-great-grandfather was thrown in jail for a month for trespassing in someone’s wood. It is my theory that he was poaching, but they didn’t have enough evidence to get him for that. He had a fair number of animals, but I imagine a lot of them went to pay the rent.

    It’s not because the cost of flour or orange is intrinsically higher

    I agree. It is mainly branding. Maybe, that is part of the secret – it started out as big-name brands vs generic brands in normal supermarkets and then differentiated further into luxury supermarkets.

    I was thinking a bit about separation of castes because of how Amazon acquired Whole Foods, and they are trying to figure out home deliveries for groceries. This makes me think of people not wanting to rub shoulders with their social inferiors.

    But you’re right, I was missing the social element. The other shoppers and caste members in the store. Networking is a very important part of status.

    Maybe, I’m not old enough to say properly, but it seems kind of like a newer phenomenon. Like mid to late ’90s. When you started to see Starbucks spring up everywhere. I feel like it is very different from the golden age of supermarkets, when they first started to show up, in the ’50s. That it represents the increasing stratification of society.

    One of the local chains that Whole Foods bought up here had the name “Bread and Circuses.” It seems like such an odd name, almost like it was a wink at the decline of civilization, but, likely, I’m being a bit paranoid. Maybe, it was just a sign of IQ, which, of course, has some linkage with class.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    , @Dmitry
  190. Anon 2 says:
    @Europe Europa

    Re: Homosexuality as peculiarly English

    I wrote specifically, “until the 1950s or ‘60s.” I wasn’t referring to the present-day
    situation. Back then among the larger countries, certainly the French were never
    regarded as particularly gay. France itself was the symbol of romance and joie de vivre.
    And neither Italy nor Spain had a gay reputation. However, in Weimar Germany,
    with its decadence, gay themes were definitely present. Austria, esp. Vienna,
    was always seen as sexually decadent. And let’s not forget that Oscar Wilde was
    seen as a “poster child” for gay England. At Oxford in the closing decades of
    the 19th century there was a whole “child worship” movement which somehow
    led Lewis Carroll to take countless nude photographs of the 8-year-old Alice
    Liddell with whom he was clearly infatuated and who inspired him to write Alice
    in Wonderland, etc. Ernest Dowson, decadent English poet known for the phrase
    “Days of wine and roses” (1896), fell desperately in love with an 11-year-old
    Polish girl who lived in London with her mother at the time. He wrote countless
    poems for her but could not marry her as he was too poor and
    ultimately too ill. One more peculiarly English example: Ignacy Paderewski,
    great Polish pianist, in his youth was followed around London by a famous
    pre-Raphaelite painter who found him to be a perfect ideal of male beauty,
    and wanted to paint him, which he did. The English were always a bit unusual,
    to say the least.

    Now lesbianism is a different matter. Marie Antoinette was widely suspected of
    engaging in frottage (tribadism) with her lesbian lover. And, of course, there
    was also Marquis de Sade. My original post referred to the fact that from the
    point of view of Poland (or Western Slavs in general) Western Europe was already
    seen as sexually decadent as early as the late 18th century. Poland and France
    were always close so the Polonians knew exactly what was going on in France.

    One more example I should have included under Germany. Thomas Mann,
    German writer who was bisexual, wrote the famous novella Death in Venice (1912)
    about a middle-aged writer who falls desperately in love with a Polish teenage
    boy he sees from a distance who reminds him of the Greek gods. I don’t want
    to spoil the ending but the story doesn’t end well for the writer. It was revealed
    later that the novella was based on a real Polish boy whom Mann met in Venice
    in 1911. He was apparently extremely handsome and was descended from
    the Polish nobility. He returned to Poland and died in Warsaw in the 1970s.
    Somehow there seems to be a theme here: Foreigners are so smitten by Polish
    children they write poems and novellas about them. I highly recommend
    both Dowson’s poems and the novella “Death in Venice.”

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  191. Anon 2 says:
    @Bliss

    I can tell you they are wrong. Poland is very homogeneous so Polish men
    are barely even aware that blacks exist. The Polish generally like the
    other Western Slavs best, followed by Hungarians and the rest of the Slavs.
    Next the Polish like the countries speaking the Romance languages: Italy,
    France, Portugal, and Spain. The Germanics, like Germans or Swedes,
    are still distrusted and even disliked in some cases. Outside of Europe
    there is interest in Japan and India, less so in China. There is very little
    interest in Africa. Africans, as in other countries, generally don’t have
    a good reputation. American blacks, of course, have the worst
    reputation of them all.

    There is a great deal of travel from Poland to Czechia and Hungary.
    Generally, we like Central Europe best. In terms of vacations, Greece
    (incl. the Greek islands) is a common destination. We like whites, by far
    compared to other races, especially now that whites are becoming
    an endangered “species” and need to be protected.

  192. Anon 2 says:
    @Europe Europa

    Re: Poles love violent Negro culture

    Where did you get this ignorant nonsense?

    This whole thread is dedicated to the proposition that Poland and
    the rest of the Visegrad countries in Central Europe are an oasis of
    peace, nonviolence, and extremely low levels of social dysfunction.

    Poland’s culture is dominated primarily by two factors:

    – Romanticism (since the late 18th century). The American literature,
    with minor exceptions, never went through a Romantic stage so
    the Romantic attitude and its view of women as creatures to be
    worshipped are something that Americans find difficult to understand

    – Messianism (since the 18th century Partitions) Poland is the Christ among
    nations, and as Holy Poland it is playing a unique role in God’s Plan for
    Salvation.

    If anything, this is the opposite of the “violent Negro culture.” Poland has
    its own great literature and great music, incl. their pop versions. American
    music and culture in general are a pale shadow of what they used to be
    from the 1940s to the 1980s. The ‘80s were the last decade when the United
    States was still recognizably American. Now all of that is gone, and the U.S.
    culture is no longer seen as very interesting. No great writers and no great music.
    The U.S. has become a very boring, uninspiring country.

  193. @songbird

    My great-great-grandfather was thrown in jail for a month for trespassing in someone’s wood.

    Is this still a problem in the US? In Sweden we have something called allemansrätten. I can go to any private land and even set up a tent there. The limit is only placed on cultivated land (like a wheat field) and <70 meters from a private residence. The rules were codified in the 1940s but even before that we had sedvänja, or loosely translated to ‘norms’ which allowed great freedoms in most common-sense cases.

    My admittedly naïve impression as an outsider is that Americans are a lot more into NIMBY than we are. Gated communities, even in the richer parts of Stockholm, are still quite rare whereas from what I understand gated communities are quite common in upper-middle class suburbs in the US. Is this accurate?

    • Replies: @songbird
  194. @AP

    A small percentage ever go to theaters. Those who often go to theaters tend to be well-off, because it correlates with intelligence and acculturation. The myth of the culturally enlightened carpenter, janitor or trashman is just that, mostly a myth.

    Most clothes are imported. Local resorts matter more if you’re in a big country like the US and a lot less important if you’re in a smaller country. Something like half of Americans don’t even have a passport IIRC, but that is not very common in many other developed countries.

    Another thing that needs to be added is that the quality of services are different. Western European healthcare is much better than Eastern European healthcare is bar few exceptions (perhaps Czechia or Slovenia). You’d much rather be in Denmark than in Hungary if you got sick on average. Same goes for corruption, quality of bureaucracy etc. This is also not adequately adressed in Poor People’s Parity but nominal income tend to reflect this better. Better run countries tend to be much richer on average and this shows up more clearly in nominal income.

    • Replies: @AP
  195. @melanf

    When I returned to St. Petersburg, I did not immediately understand what I was worried about in the metro – the complete absence of middle Eastern faces to which I was used in Austria.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Saint_Petersburg_Metro_bombing

    SPB homicide rate: 3
    Vienna homicide rate: 0.6

    I find it mildly amusing you were so mentally terrorised even as you were visiting a much safer city. Sort of goes to show how easily even smart people can be manipulated. Thought you were made of sterner intellectual stuff, melanf.

    • Replies: @melanf
  196. melanf says:
    @Thulean Friend

    I find it mildly amusing you were so mentally terrorised even as you were visiting a much safer city.

    Where did you read this? The Viennese middle Eastern migrants did not frighten me at all. Simply, when they returned to St. Petersburg, their (middle Eastern migrants) absence was perceived on a subconscious level as something unusual

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Dmitry
  197. AP says:
    @Thulean Friend

    A small percentage ever go to theaters. Those who often go to theaters tend to be well-off, because it correlates with intelligence and acculturation. The myth of the culturally enlightened carpenter, janitor or trashman is just that, mostly a myth.

    You can add to this movie theaters. And come to think of it, other forms of entertainment, such as pubs, bowling alleys, sporting event tickets, concert tickets.

    Most clothes are imported.

    Ukraine and Russia which had seen currency devaluation and concomitant discrepancy between nominal and PPP make plenty of their own clothes and shoes. While it is not as nice as Italian stuff it is not worse than regular Chinese stuff.

    Local resorts matter more if you’re in a big country like the US and a lot less important if you’re in a smaller country.

    They are common in larger countries such as Russia and in mid-sized ones such as Ukraine. Skiing in the Caprathians or outside Sochi may not be Switzerland but isn’t worse than much of the Appalachians. There are warm sandy beaches on the Black Sea.

    Another thing that needs to be added is that the quality of services are different.

    Waitresses in Lviv cafes where meals are a fraction of the cost as in Vienna are no less pleasant or attentive, and the food isn’t worse either despite being a lot cheaper (there were two meals I had in Austria that were among the best in my life, maybe I just didn’t find it in Lviv, but other than that there was no advantage, the cafes and restaurants were equally good, may places in Austria were not as good as some in Lviv).

    Western European healthcare is much better than Eastern European healthcare

    This has to do with Soviet legacy and not with PPP.

    ::::::::

    In general, a rather small portion of what is needed for normal living isn’t covered by PPP. Automobiles is the main one. Smartphones and electronic devices also. And visiting places like Paris, the Swiss Alps, or Tokyo. Beyond that – not much. Entertainment, clothes, food, utilities, home renovations, rent, trips to beaches and mountains – they all get cheaper too. You dramatically oversell the importance of it.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  198. AP says:
    @melanf

    Most of the Middle-Easterners I saw in Vienna did not appear to be migrants but looked like comfortable, well-settled locals. I only saw two people who were clearly migrants: one guy quietly begging outside St. Stephan’s before the police got rid of him, and a second guy in some shopping district, emaciated, dressed in rags, and quietly walking around while pleading “bitte” (please). The feeling these people aroused was not fear, but pity.

  199. songbird says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Is this still a problem in the US? In Sweden we have something called allemansrätten. I can go to any private land and even set up a tent there.

    Actually, I am speaking of Ireland. My US ancestry doesn’t date back terribly far, only to about the 1880s. Still, it was a very different country back then. In 1905, half of Americans had blue eyes! In 2002, it was only 1 in 6. I would hate to think what it is today.

    In Ireland, there were severe tensions over land, as you can imagine, so I would suppose that they typically threw the book at people, so to speak. By about 1750, Catholics only owned about 3% of land, by the 1870s (which I think was the time), it would have expanded some, but likely not by very much.

    BTW, pretty interesting system in Sweden. I shall have to look it up – I wouldn’t want Somalis setting up a big cauldron in my front yard and winking at me, whenever they saw me.

    from what I understand gated communities are quite common in upper-middle class suburbs in the US. Is this accurate?

    I live in an old part of the US, which historically was pretty white. Gates are about non-existent here, though if you are a rough looking sort, like a tattoo on your neck, you can expect to be harassed by the police around a wealthy neighborhood. It wouldn’t be practical to build gated communities though, as there isn’t enough open land available for development. Most of the segregation is done by housing costs, which are quite substantial, or by long commutes.

    I couldn’t answer very well to the rest of the US. Though, my impression is that they are common in Florida, for two reasons: crime-prone blacks, and a lot of the houses are newer developments. But recently an acquaintance of mine moved to Florida, and I was surprised to find that there was no gate around the community.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
  200. @AP

    We can agree to disagree, since both of us are comfortable in our positions and neither appears to have succeeded in convincing the other.

  201. @songbird

    In 1905, half of Americans had blue eyes!

    I’m surprised at how low it was. I’d venture that’s the proportion in Sweden in 2020, at the very minimum. Likely higher.

    if you are a rough looking sort, like a tattoo on your neck, you can expect to be harassed by the police around a wealthy neighborhood.

    Horrific. I live in a well-off neighbourhood in Stockholm, though not the absolute richest part. I can go to those areas, however, without any difficulty and easily cross into their porches. The fences are typically either non-existent or very low. There’s no police or private security in sight. Nobody is going to give you even a strange look, and I dress quite normal, even casual. In general, you don’t feel the social and economic inequality to the same extent that you do abroad, though it has increased in recent decades. The Sweden of my childhood was in some ways a fairytale, though I am sure I am reminiscing with rose-tinted glasses on, as people are wont to do when thinking of childhood memories.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  202. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    I guess the luxury supermarket sells more than just food, but also more amour-propre from being perceived as higher class people, and also a simply more pleasant and enjoyable experience, away from smell people.

    You can see the English jokes about their middle class (i.e. intentionally more expensive) supermarkets, where they sell the same products for higher prices.

    (And then there are even far more elite supermarkets like Fortnum & Mason https://www.fortnumandmason.com/).

    • Replies: @songbird
  203. Dmitry says:
    @Thulean Friend

    Surely, in Sweden it is at least 3/4 or more people have blue eyes? I would have thought it is 80% or 90%, perhaps if you exclude recent immigrants.

    I.e. so that girls with brown eyes start to at least unconsciously seem to you as more beautiful (for people who grew up in Sweden).

  204. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    Your comment seems strange to me, because I think I do not remember seeing Middle Eastern people in Vienna in the early 2000s.

    My memory is not perfect, but I think I can only remember the people as being probably Austrians and perhaps tourists.

    • Replies: @melanf
  205. @AP

    … or outside Sochi may not be Switzerland but isn’t worse than much of the Appalachians.

    The Sochi resorts are, erm, Olympic level tier. Incidentally, our commenter JL confirms that they are excellent, as he spends large parts of the winter skiing there.

    The only Russians who go skiing abroad either live the sport, or do it to signal how cool they are.

    Western European healthcare is much better than Eastern European healthcare

    This has to do with Soviet legacy and not with PPP.

    Even with respect to healthcare, *private* healthcare is not significantly worse than in the US. And ofc about 10x cheaper (at least before insurance adjustments).

    ***

    Otherwise, I agree with all of that. I wonder if Thulean Friend has spent any significant time in a Poor Person’s Parity country to be able to make sure assessments.

    • Replies: @AP
  206. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    Your comment seems strange to me, because I think I do not remember seeing Middle Eastern people in Vienna in the early 2000s.

    Apparently since then, Vienna has changed (this is not surprising – it has been almost 20 years)

  207. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    I am fascinated by class consciousness in Britain, where they still have hereditary titles, and, if I understand correctly, different accents based on class.

    In America, with some rare exceptions, excluding ethnic divisions, I presume it was nearly non-existent, except for the fabulously wealthy who lived in big cities. (And this seems to be changing dramatically now.)

    I’ve been thinking especially of car culture. Of course, America pioneered things like supermarkets and shopping malls. The best place to go for a lot of things, were these places, and I’m sure people mixed at them originally. In Britain, I wonder if it may have been a bit different, with more differentiated shops, like tailors, bakeries, and butchers, where they may have had different levels of quality and price.

  208. @Dmitry

    “they avoid conscription to the army.”

    Many jobs require that applicants have served in the army, so it is not just a blessing.

  209. Seraphim says:
    @Anon 2

    Homosexuality seems to be peculiar to the ‘Germanic’ race.
    The French were tireless in exposing the peccadillo of their neighbors.
    The French writer Octave Mirbeau (1848-1917) wrote:
    “They [the Germans] are not satisfied simply being pederasts, like the rest of the world. They have to invent homosexuality. Where science goes and finds itself a niche, my God? They study pederasty, just as they study epigraphy. . . . Pederasts with emphasis,sodomites with erudition! And in place of men simply making love together, through vice, they are homosexuals with pedantry. Go to Berlin, I tell you—see you in Berlin. That is the journey” (Octave Mirbeau, “Berlin-Sodome,” , Paris, 1907).
    The French always called it ‘le vice allemand’, expression popularized by another French novelist Armand Dubarry in a novel “Les invertis (le vice allemand)”, 1869: ““To-day again the Prussians are at the head of a European movement for pederasty. The vice affects all Germans, likewise married men. In France they [married men] are likely to have mistresses,but in Germany, male lovers.”
    The number of ‘affairs’ in Wilhelmine Germany dwarfs the Oscar Wilde affair.
    And the Germans produced the first ‘gay activists’ (Karl Heinrich Ulrichs, who in 1867 went before the Sixth Congress of German Jurists, in Munich, to urge the repeal of laws forbidding sex between men).

  210. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    … or outside Sochi may not be Switzerland but isn’t worse than much of the Appalachians.

    The Sochi resorts are, erm, Olympic level tier.

    Well, they’ve had winter Olympics in the Appalachians twice.

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