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Ukrainians Send Chinese Aid on Soviet Planes to USA
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Propaganda:

The FTFY version (h/t Bryan MacDonald):

A private Ukrainian air company is being paid to airlift tons of Chinese lifesaving medical supplies to the US with the biggest Soviet built and Russian designed cargo planes in the world

***

Would indeed be pretty strange for the Ukraine to do it for free, since it has received a grand total of $1.2 million in Corona-related aid, which is basically an insult even relative to Ukraine’s economy. I suppose even Ukrainian West-worship has its limits.

Incidentally, on that note, the Ukraine also got a paltry 250,000 Euros from its V4 brothers. Nice quantification of the true worth of various Polish-Ukrainian Condominium/Intermarium fantasies.

***

Now compare and contrast with American coverage of Russian (and Chinese) aid to Italy.

“Eighty percent of Russian supplies are totally useless or of little use to Italy. In short, this is little more than a pretext,” an unnamed source told La Stampa.

The source said the Russian supplies consist of disinfection equipment, a field laboratory for sterilization and chemical prevention, and other similar tools.

La Stampa’s sources claimed that Putin is pursuing geopolitical and diplomatic opportunities with the aid package dubbed “From Russia With Love,” while Conte accepted the aid in order to secure a good personal relationship with Moscow.

***

But it seems this psyops is only working on Americans, not on Italians – its actually intended target:

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. received a grand total of $1.2 million in Corona-related aid, which is basically an insult even relative

    I don’t think America should give to Ukraine, corona-related aid – America needs more help than Ukraine, and should keep everything it has for its own population until the epidemiological situation improves.

    Ukraine is all overstocked with hand-sanitizer and (probably ineffective) Chinese face masks in the supermarkets. The majority of the population is wearing such masks in the streets, and they have ethanol santizing products in the supermarkets, unlike in many countries where these are not in stock.

    Coronavirus is still spreading in Ukraine, but the epidemic is developing relatively slower, and the population behaves well, and the government responds somewhat logically.

    On the other hand, in America, the epidemic is spreading fast, with a lot of the population disobeying self-isolation measures, and often contradicting responses from the government.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN

    America needs more help than Ukraine, and should keep everything it has for its own population until the epidemiological situation improves.
     
    In terms of incompetence, as revealed by the epidemic, Ukrainian government is #1 without rivals, the US government is #2. The governments of Belarus and Brazil are in dead heat for #3.
  3. Lukashenko is criticizing Russian coronavirus test kits.
    https://novayagazeta.ru/news/2020/04/18/160813-dolzhen-otkrovenno-skazat-testy-ni-k-chertu-lukashenko-raskritikoval-rossiyskie-test-sistemy-na-koronavirus

    This is his response, after Moscow had donated to him 10000 test kits for free.

    Ironically, Lukashenko is too scared to say anything to criticize the Chinese coronavirus test kits he also received, and which had in recent days been rejected by civilized/advanced countries (Spain/UK) as trash.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    My understanding is that the Chinese test kits ('are you infected?') they used in Wuhan gave a 30% "negative" result on people who were actually hospitalised with clinical CV19 symptoms.

    https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.2020200642

    And that the UK are looking at antibody test kits ('were you infected?') and "none of the tests we have validated would meet the criteria for a good test as agreed with the MHRA."

    https://www.research.ox.ac.uk/Article/2020-04-05-trouble-in-testing-land

    Looks as if you can be pretty sure that an "are you infected" test with a positive result is correct, but you're not necessarily cleared by a negative result.

    I've not seen any detail on the problems with the antibody testing, just that there are problems.
  4. In the meantime Tatarstan becomes the first region in Russia to mandate wearing masks. Hooray!

    https://lenta.ru/news/2020/04/18/tatarstan/

    With this they can dump every other moronic restriction they implemented since late March. People shouldn’t need SMS-passes to go outside.

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    You are such a faux-nationalist poseur. One day you are criticising the authorities for being too soft on rules and enforcement over the virus--the next week you go 180 degrees the other way.

    I would agree that bans/strong recommendations on over 65s in certain have to be rescinded - particularly as everybody is adapting to social distancing concept. QR codes working fine in Tatarstan, not much traffic problems in Kazan, fines infrequent, QR very easy to get actually. Current measures in Moscow of only needing them for car or public transport are just right, Tatarstan we went too far - but this is reduced by the fact that quite alot of businesses are still open as usual
  5. @Dmitry
    Lukashenko is criticizing Russian coronavirus test kits.
    https://novayagazeta.ru/news/2020/04/18/160813-dolzhen-otkrovenno-skazat-testy-ni-k-chertu-lukashenko-raskritikoval-rossiyskie-test-sistemy-na-koronavirus

    This is his response, after Moscow had donated to him 10000 test kits for free.

    Ironically, Lukashenko is too scared to say anything to criticize the Chinese coronavirus test kits he also received, and which had in recent days been rejected by civilized/advanced countries (Spain/UK) as trash.

    My understanding is that the Chinese test kits (‘are you infected?’) they used in Wuhan gave a 30% “negative” result on people who were actually hospitalised with clinical CV19 symptoms.

    https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.2020200642

    And that the UK are looking at antibody test kits (‘were you infected?’) and “none of the tests we have validated would meet the criteria for a good test as agreed with the MHRA.”

    https://www.research.ox.ac.uk/Article/2020-04-05-trouble-in-testing-land

    Looks as if you can be pretty sure that an “are you infected” test with a positive result is correct, but you’re not necessarily cleared by a negative result.

    I’ve not seen any detail on the problems with the antibody testing, just that there are problems.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Lukashenko was complaining because the Russian test kits have too many false positives.

    Lol, he preferred the Chinese test kits, with too many false negatives. It's a bit like Trump who preferred the cruise ship does not land in the USA in February, because: "I don't need to have the numbers [of confirmed U.S. coronavirus cases] double because of one ship. "

    However, really, it's just Lukashenko wants a chance to say something from Russia is trash, while he diplomatically would not criticize something from China - one of his recent (more logical) projects is to attract Chinese investment.

  6. The most important item in the above statistics are Italy’s TOP 2 enemies:

    — SJW Globalist Germany / Merkel
    — SJW Globalist France / Macron

    The EU budget was a complete shambles before the pandemic, due to Brexit. Now the problems are likely to be unsolvable.

    Because of the € currency, Italy cannot leave the EU/EZ. And, the anti-democratic EU system cannot cope with Open Defiance from a large population like the Italians. How will Germany maintain unilateral control over EU manufacturing policy when auto lorries full of Mercedes and BMW’s begin to ‘spontaneously combust‘?

    PEACE 😷

    • Agree: Derer
  7. What point is there to NATO when our approval goes into the ground whenever a GOP President is in office?

    It is Redstan that enlists out of proportion.

    We need our self-determination.

  8. AP says:

    I have mentioned this before, but the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine is behaving particularly stupidly and the authorities are taking advantage by presenting the Russian Church as an arm of the Russian state and describing its stupid acts as a sort of anti-Ukrainian biological warfare by the Russian state (the Russian State uses its Church within Ukraine to infect Ukrainians) and the Russian Church as the main culprit of transmission withing the country.

    The Ukrainian media is showing stories about Russian Orthodox priests urging their followers to ignore the news and come to church for Easter. In contrast, the head of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine tells people to stay home and that this crisis is a chance to demonstrate how God is everywhere.

    The Monastery of the Caves has been so hard hit with the virus that it has been surrounded by the police and cordoned off.

    In this way, the Ukrainian state politicizes the crisis, combining good precautionary behaviors with nationalism and anti-Russianism. Thwart Russia by wearing masks and avoiding crowds, report those who don’t do these things because they are betraying the country and serving Russia. And we know whom to blame if the virus gets out of hand.

    The Ukrainian nationalist view:

    https://atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/russian-church-in-ukraine-fuels-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Russian Church in Ukraine fuels coronavirus outbreak

    UkraineAlert by Victor Tregubov

    [MORE]

    The coronavirus crisis has proven a revealing test of how Ukraine’s rival Orthodox churches relate to the Ukrainian state and Ukrainian society as a whole. Despite initial misgivings, the Orthodox Church of Ukraine has reluctantly adopted government quarantine guidelines and agreed to conduct services with only clergy and choir present. Parishioners have been asked to stay at home, with services broadcast online and on TV. Church officials have even partnered with the country’s biggest online retailer to sell traditional Easter bread consecrated at Kyiv’s St. Michael’s Golden-Domed Monastery, proving that even in the ultra-conservative world of Orthodoxy, it is possible to find modern solutions to modern problems.

    This flexibility has been largely absent from the Moscow Patriarchate’s response to the coronavirus crisis, which was initially marked by blanket refusals to follow the Ukrainian government’s anti-pandemic safety measures. Indeed, the head of the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra Monastery, which serves as the headquarters of the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine, was particularly outspoken in his dismissals. Metropolitan Pavel actively encouraged believers to attend church services and claimed the virus could be defeated by fasting, prayers and hugs. However, he was forced to change his tune once the monastery itself became an infection hot spot. On April 13, the Kyiv municipal authorities moved to close the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra Monastery following news of over one hundred coronavirus cases and at least two fatalities.

    In the wake of the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra Monastery closure, Moscow Patriarchate leader Metropolitan Onufriy issued a statement that hinted at compromise. He called on the Moscow Patriarchate to act in accordance with state quarantine regulations and vowed to no longer permit parishioners inside church buildings. However, unlike the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, he did not call on the faithful to stay at home. Instead, Metropolitan Onufriy promised believers that Easter services would proceed and invited them to come and pray outside churches, a move that could result in hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians venturing into villages, towns and cities across the country on Sunday with potentially deadly consequences.

    The battle lines are thus drawn as Easter Sunday approaches. On this holiest of holidays in the Orthodox calendar, followers of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine will mostly be celebrating at home, perhaps while enjoying traditional holiday treats ordered online. Meanwhile, many adherents of the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine will disregard bans on large public gatherings and flock to their churches to mark the festivities. In the fight against the pandemic, they will chose piety over patriotism. It is a choice that says much about the relative values of the two main Orthodox churches currently struggling for the soul of Ukraine.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Mikhail

    Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine
     
    Not their official name. The above is the PC svido label of it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Orthodox_Church_(Moscow_Patriarchate)

    BTW and rhetorically put, here's the ROC-MP position:

    https://meduza.io/en/feature/2020/04/15/we-ll-end-up-in-church-all-the-same


    Patriarch Kirill has called on Russian Orthodox Christians to pray at home this year during Holy Week and Easter and avoid going to church, to curb the spread of coronavirus. The Moscow Patriarchate also ordered priests and monks throughout the capital to close churches and monasteries to the public, citing a directive from Russia’s surgeon general.
     
    Abroad, I don't know of any ROCOR-MP churches violating local government directives. If the UOC-MP is acting differently on the coronavirus matter, then it further proves how independent it is from the ROC-MP, contrary to svido disinformation.
    , @Kovar
    A nationalist writing for the Atlantic Council? Are you this dense?

    They can tolerate "nationalism" only if it serves the purpose of weakening Russia (or China) and strengthening the Trotskyite West. It's a means to an end, but you can rest assured that it's not the end itself. If Ukraine is ever severed from Russia and fully integrated with the West - unlikely to happen because of Crimea and the Donbass - all these Atlanticist organizations, including the pitiful Atlantic Council, will drop these pretenses quickly.

    Not only that, I can already see Trotskyite undercurrents being disseminated by Western-funded outlets and organizations in Ukraine. The LGBT lobby is a prime example, it has been growing since 2014 (the dislike to like ratio of the official parade in Kiev, covered & posted every year by the CIA's Radio Liberty Ukrainian branch on YouTube, is decreasing on a yearly basis, I'm amazed at the consistency in attitude change). Another favorite Trotskyite strategy, that of riling up women against men is also growing (it helps to divide the votes and polarize society, making unity impossible and eliminating any chances of having an authoritative figure come to power... they can then fund the opposing sides for decades while making sure their cultural and economic policies are slowly but steadily implemented, and of course the nationalists will be on the losing side). Ukrainian men are targeted with talks of domestic violence, in other words, Ukrainian women are told to believe they are the victims of a patriarchal system. If Ukraine had enough non-whites, you'd see a growing and completely pre-planned voting bloc. They'll make short work of Ukraine, it's an ongoing process.

    Having watched the developments in the Anglosphere and Western Europe in the last decades, I know too well what to expect, and a nationalist triumph is certainly not part of the plan, LOL.

    , @Autists Anonymous Rehab Camp Fugitive
    A tribal african government incapable of having its citizens do anything unless it rallies everyone against a common threat.
    Outside of emergency cases, there's no rule of law or order to speak of.

    Everybody would be dying of ebola, but the shamans found a way to blame it on the white man, and now it's a personal struggle that every warlord feels compelled to fight in.

    That's the impression I'm getting here.
  9. After gaining absolutely no traction with Karlin’s recent spurious claim that “American Evangelicals were running crazy” throughout Ukraine and hampering its vaccination programs, now this? Did Trump really say that Ukrainians were “terrible people” or did he say that they “weren’t terrible people” (last I checked, these quotes have totally different meanings?). Regardless, looks like he must have recently eaten some nasty tasting Ukrainian salo. The only remedy for this, is for him to get some good, red Ukrainian borshch to get the bad taste out of his mouth. 🙂

    I can’t wait till I feast on the goodies within my Easter basket, tomorrow!

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Did Trump really say that Ukrainians were “terrible people” or did he say that they “weren’t terrible people” (last I checked, these quotes have totally different meanings?).
     
    The title feels like too much of a "Gotcha".

    My guess is that he probably said some individual Ukrainians were terrible (perhaps related to "Ukrainegate") - Trump frequently improvises and combined with his ineloquence (a poor habit for a public person by the way) makes it easy to claim that he said whatever, since in the end a lot of his words are simply waffle.

  10. @Dmitry

    received a grand total of $1.2 million in Corona-related aid, which is basically an insult even relative
     
    I don't think America should give to Ukraine, corona-related aid - America needs more help than Ukraine, and should keep everything it has for its own population until the epidemiological situation improves.

    Ukraine is all overstocked with hand-sanitizer and (probably ineffective) Chinese face masks in the supermarkets. The majority of the population is wearing such masks in the streets, and they have ethanol santizing products in the supermarkets, unlike in many countries where these are not in stock.

    Coronavirus is still spreading in Ukraine, but the epidemic is developing relatively slower, and the population behaves well, and the government responds somewhat logically.

    On the other hand, in America, the epidemic is spreading fast, with a lot of the population disobeying self-isolation measures, and often contradicting responses from the government.

    America needs more help than Ukraine, and should keep everything it has for its own population until the epidemiological situation improves.

    In terms of incompetence, as revealed by the epidemic, Ukrainian government is #1 without rivals, the US government is #2. The governments of Belarus and Brazil are in dead heat for #3.

    • Replies: @AP
    Ukrainian government tells everyone to stay home, and locks down the country. Lukashenko tells everyone to carry on as normal, go to hockey games, etc.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Ukraine does hard lockdown and mass mask usage, but no mass testing (though Ukrainian testing is picking up at last).

    Belarus does mass testing, but no lockdown or mass mask usage.

    Will be interesting to compare trajectories.
    , @Dmitry
    Ukraine's government response to the epidemic was possibly more suitable - for their weak starting position - than average.

    They have tried the only strategy available for a country with reduced state capacity and health service, as well as favourable climatic conditions for the epidemic to develop: overpanic, lock down Kiev, and have most of the country's population to wear paper (possibly not very effective, but also probably better than nothing) medical masks.

    They had greater supply of medical masks and sanitizers than other countries - I assume China had oversupplied them.

    Obviously, the anti-epidemic capacity of the Soviet Union has been dismantled, and they also have to be careful not to lock down too early.

    As for behaviour of the population. From what the little I could see, people are behaving worse to undermine the effectiveness of this expensive lockdown in North West Europe, than in Ukraine. North Western Europeans might be the most rebellious people during epidemics.

  11. And European countries, for better or worse, will continue to turn towards China as the USA becomes less and less white, and more and more dysfunctional.

    Would you make Brazil your greatest ally? The USA demographics aren’t that far off from Brazil (probably around 60% white). The USA is becoming a Brazil that actively hampers its productive population through affirmative action.

    As the directives from GloboHomo headquarters in the USA/Israel become more and more insane, and more and more attuned to non-white (uncivilized) preferences, Europe which remains much whiter will shift towards China. I’m not a CCP apologist BTW, but it’s inevitable based on the way the US is going.

  12. @AnonFromTN

    America needs more help than Ukraine, and should keep everything it has for its own population until the epidemiological situation improves.
     
    In terms of incompetence, as revealed by the epidemic, Ukrainian government is #1 without rivals, the US government is #2. The governments of Belarus and Brazil are in dead heat for #3.

    Ukrainian government tells everyone to stay home, and locks down the country. Lukashenko tells everyone to carry on as normal, go to hockey games, etc.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Who tells what is irrelevant. Talk is cheap. I don’t know about Luka, who is a moron (same as Bolsonaro, BTW), but Ukraine dismantled its Soviet-era epidemiological service, which even crazy Poles retained. It is inadvisable to count chickens before they hatch. In two-three months we will learn the score, and then would be able to compare the actual results, not wishful thinking.
    , @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    Ukrainian government
     
    Jewish-American-Polish prostitute government..... or is that American-Jewish-Polish prostitute government?

    Tells everyone to stay at home, locksdown the whole country
     
    Pitiful, Authoritarian state with no civil society agrees to kill itself.... again. To make matters worse- tries to push through the land reform Bill during the lockdown.
    Most importantly, it all but admits the deranged loser failure of its anti-sovietism (soviet heritage stuff being the only thing giving it any resemblance of health care) American Controlled health-system in the last 6 years. LOL. A disaster. To make this farce even more comical.... appoints 3 health ministers in a month, just at the time when some stability in the health department is needed.

    Lukashenko tells everyone to carry on
     
    Belarus has a functioning health system, Ukraine has none.
    Belarus, unlike Banderastan actually does plenty of testing, hospitals are not at breaking-point, and has had lower number of deaths--all whilst keeping its economy going, with the added relief that its economy is nowhere near as reliant on remittances as Ukraine (guaranteed 3% drop from whole gdp based on remittances alone)

    Belarus is also exponentially better governed, more prosperous and richer and stable than ukropia - even with the mistakes Lukashenko has made with Russia and over the Coronavirus in the last couple of months. Its much most likely to be giving truer statistics than ukrops obviously fake ones..... and not with 20% of them being medics with coronavirus!

    But still, no real point debating with a satanic entity who can't speak a word of Russian or "Ukrainian", I have no reason to believe has ever been to either state and is a habitual liar ( Karlin - I hope this is acceptable language)

    , @in the middle
    Hello from Mexico.

    Here in the little town i lived, no one, I say again No ONE believes this scaremongering virus craze. We asked several people, here and in the USA, our friends, if they KNOW any one dead of this virus, or sick, and NO ONE has seen a friend, or knows a friend who is either dead or sick! Of course the simple keep getting scared, and I just look in disbelieve how some people who only watch TV, keep getting scared. A friend of mine, told me recently, of course there are many dead... after pausing he said, on TV of course. our population is only 18 thousand, and I went to one of the two hospitals in town to ask if any sick people have arrived to their location and the nurse looked me straight in the eye and said, "some of us don't believe in this scaremongering.". So...no, no sick people besides one construction worker who fell from the third floor two days ago.

  13. @AP
    I have mentioned this before, but the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine is behaving particularly stupidly and the authorities are taking advantage by presenting the Russian Church as an arm of the Russian state and describing its stupid acts as a sort of anti-Ukrainian biological warfare by the Russian state (the Russian State uses its Church within Ukraine to infect Ukrainians) and the Russian Church as the main culprit of transmission withing the country.

    The Ukrainian media is showing stories about Russian Orthodox priests urging their followers to ignore the news and come to church for Easter. In contrast, the head of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine tells people to stay home and that this crisis is a chance to demonstrate how God is everywhere.

    The Monastery of the Caves has been so hard hit with the virus that it has been surrounded by the police and cordoned off.

    In this way, the Ukrainian state politicizes the crisis, combining good precautionary behaviors with nationalism and anti-Russianism. Thwart Russia by wearing masks and avoiding crowds, report those who don't do these things because they are betraying the country and serving Russia. And we know whom to blame if the virus gets out of hand.

    The Ukrainian nationalist view:

    https://atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/russian-church-in-ukraine-fuels-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Russian Church in Ukraine fuels coronavirus outbreak

    UkraineAlert by Victor Tregubov



    The coronavirus crisis has proven a revealing test of how Ukraine’s rival Orthodox churches relate to the Ukrainian state and Ukrainian society as a whole. Despite initial misgivings, the Orthodox Church of Ukraine has reluctantly adopted government quarantine guidelines and agreed to conduct services with only clergy and choir present. Parishioners have been asked to stay at home, with services broadcast online and on TV. Church officials have even partnered with the country’s biggest online retailer to sell traditional Easter bread consecrated at Kyiv’s St. Michael’s Golden-Domed Monastery, proving that even in the ultra-conservative world of Orthodoxy, it is possible to find modern solutions to modern problems.

    This flexibility has been largely absent from the Moscow Patriarchate’s response to the coronavirus crisis, which was initially marked by blanket refusals to follow the Ukrainian government’s anti-pandemic safety measures. Indeed, the head of the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra Monastery, which serves as the headquarters of the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine, was particularly outspoken in his dismissals. Metropolitan Pavel actively encouraged believers to attend church services and claimed the virus could be defeated by fasting, prayers and hugs. However, he was forced to change his tune once the monastery itself became an infection hot spot. On April 13, the Kyiv municipal authorities moved to close the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra Monastery following news of over one hundred coronavirus cases and at least two fatalities.

    In the wake of the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra Monastery closure, Moscow Patriarchate leader Metropolitan Onufriy issued a statement that hinted at compromise. He called on the Moscow Patriarchate to act in accordance with state quarantine regulations and vowed to no longer permit parishioners inside church buildings. However, unlike the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, he did not call on the faithful to stay at home. Instead, Metropolitan Onufriy promised believers that Easter services would proceed and invited them to come and pray outside churches, a move that could result in hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians venturing into villages, towns and cities across the country on Sunday with potentially deadly consequences.

    The battle lines are thus drawn as Easter Sunday approaches. On this holiest of holidays in the Orthodox calendar, followers of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine will mostly be celebrating at home, perhaps while enjoying traditional holiday treats ordered online. Meanwhile, many adherents of the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine will disregard bans on large public gatherings and flock to their churches to mark the festivities. In the fight against the pandemic, they will chose piety over patriotism. It is a choice that says much about the relative values of the two main Orthodox churches currently struggling for the soul of Ukraine.

    Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine

    Not their official name. The above is the PC svido label of it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Orthodox_Church_(Moscow_Patriarchate)

    BTW and rhetorically put, here’s the ROC-MP position:

    https://meduza.io/en/feature/2020/04/15/we-ll-end-up-in-church-all-the-same

    Patriarch Kirill has called on Russian Orthodox Christians to pray at home this year during Holy Week and Easter and avoid going to church, to curb the spread of coronavirus. The Moscow Patriarchate also ordered priests and monks throughout the capital to close churches and monasteries to the public, citing a directive from Russia’s surgeon general.

    Abroad, I don’t know of any ROCOR-MP churches violating local government directives. If the UOC-MP is acting differently on the coronavirus matter, then it further proves how independent it is from the ROC-MP, contrary to svido disinformation.

    • Replies: @AP

    Abroad, I don't know of any ROCOR-MP churches violating local government directives. If the UOC-MP is acting differently on the coronavirus matter, then it further proves how independent it is from the ROC-MP, contrary to svido disinformation.
     
    Or it proves that the Russian Church in Ukraine is more careful with Russian lives than with Ukrainian lives :-)

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/rival-ukraine-churches-clash-easter-lockdown-rules-70183822



    Ukraine's two rival Orthodox churches clashed Thursday over public health guidelines for forthcoming Easter celebrations, after the one said believers could gather outside places of worship despite a government ban on public gatherings due to the pandemic.

    The head of the Moscow-affiliated Orthodox Church in Ukraine did urge believers to stay home and watch televised Easter services. But Metropolitan Onufriy added that those who wanted could come and pray outside churches while maintaining social distancing.

    Orthodox Easter is celebrated this week, culminating in Easter Sunday on April 19.

    The rival independent Orthodox Church criticized Onufriy's statement Thursday, with its leader, Archbishop Yevstratiy, saying that it's a “Christian duty” to take care of others and stay home amid the pandemic.

    To emphasize the need for self-isolation, Yevstratiy pointed to an outbreak of 90 coronavirus cases at the historic Pechersk Monastery in Kyiv. The monastery, famous for its extensive system of caves and tunnels containing centuries-old cells for monks and burial places, was quarantined Monday.
  14. @AP
    Ukrainian government tells everyone to stay home, and locks down the country. Lukashenko tells everyone to carry on as normal, go to hockey games, etc.

    Who tells what is irrelevant. Talk is cheap. I don’t know about Luka, who is a moron (same as Bolsonaro, BTW), but Ukraine dismantled its Soviet-era epidemiological service, which even crazy Poles retained. It is inadvisable to count chickens before they hatch. In two-three months we will learn the score, and then would be able to compare the actual results, not wishful thinking.

  15. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine
     
    Not their official name. The above is the PC svido label of it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Orthodox_Church_(Moscow_Patriarchate)

    BTW and rhetorically put, here's the ROC-MP position:

    https://meduza.io/en/feature/2020/04/15/we-ll-end-up-in-church-all-the-same


    Patriarch Kirill has called on Russian Orthodox Christians to pray at home this year during Holy Week and Easter and avoid going to church, to curb the spread of coronavirus. The Moscow Patriarchate also ordered priests and monks throughout the capital to close churches and monasteries to the public, citing a directive from Russia’s surgeon general.
     
    Abroad, I don't know of any ROCOR-MP churches violating local government directives. If the UOC-MP is acting differently on the coronavirus matter, then it further proves how independent it is from the ROC-MP, contrary to svido disinformation.

    Abroad, I don’t know of any ROCOR-MP churches violating local government directives. If the UOC-MP is acting differently on the coronavirus matter, then it further proves how independent it is from the ROC-MP, contrary to svido disinformation.

    Or it proves that the Russian Church in Ukraine is more careful with Russian lives than with Ukrainian lives 🙂

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/rival-ukraine-churches-clash-easter-lockdown-rules-70183822

    [MORE]

    Ukraine’s two rival Orthodox churches clashed Thursday over public health guidelines for forthcoming Easter celebrations, after the one said believers could gather outside places of worship despite a government ban on public gatherings due to the pandemic.

    The head of the Moscow-affiliated Orthodox Church in Ukraine did urge believers to stay home and watch televised Easter services. But Metropolitan Onufriy added that those who wanted could come and pray outside churches while maintaining social distancing.

    Orthodox Easter is celebrated this week, culminating in Easter Sunday on April 19.

    The rival independent Orthodox Church criticized Onufriy’s statement Thursday, with its leader, Archbishop Yevstratiy, saying that it’s a “Christian duty” to take care of others and stay home amid the pandemic.

    To emphasize the need for self-isolation, Yevstratiy pointed to an outbreak of 90 coronavirus cases at the historic Pechersk Monastery in Kyiv. The monastery, famous for its extensive system of caves and tunnels containing centuries-old cells for monks and burial places, was quarantined Monday.

    • Replies: @Mikhail

    Or it proves that the Russian Church in Ukraine is more careful with Russian lives than with Ukrainian lives
     
    Makes no sense and on par with your interpretation of collaborate and cooperate:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/imperial-russian-terrorists/#comment-3838490

    Something isn't right with your wiring.

    , @Belarusian Dude

    Or it proves that the Russian Church in Ukraine is more careful with Russian lives than with Ukrainian lives
     
    What a braindead take, why would they try to exterminate their supporters? As usual the low intellectual base of ukrainian nationalists shows its head.
  16. @AP
    I have mentioned this before, but the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine is behaving particularly stupidly and the authorities are taking advantage by presenting the Russian Church as an arm of the Russian state and describing its stupid acts as a sort of anti-Ukrainian biological warfare by the Russian state (the Russian State uses its Church within Ukraine to infect Ukrainians) and the Russian Church as the main culprit of transmission withing the country.

    The Ukrainian media is showing stories about Russian Orthodox priests urging their followers to ignore the news and come to church for Easter. In contrast, the head of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine tells people to stay home and that this crisis is a chance to demonstrate how God is everywhere.

    The Monastery of the Caves has been so hard hit with the virus that it has been surrounded by the police and cordoned off.

    In this way, the Ukrainian state politicizes the crisis, combining good precautionary behaviors with nationalism and anti-Russianism. Thwart Russia by wearing masks and avoiding crowds, report those who don't do these things because they are betraying the country and serving Russia. And we know whom to blame if the virus gets out of hand.

    The Ukrainian nationalist view:

    https://atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/russian-church-in-ukraine-fuels-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Russian Church in Ukraine fuels coronavirus outbreak

    UkraineAlert by Victor Tregubov



    The coronavirus crisis has proven a revealing test of how Ukraine’s rival Orthodox churches relate to the Ukrainian state and Ukrainian society as a whole. Despite initial misgivings, the Orthodox Church of Ukraine has reluctantly adopted government quarantine guidelines and agreed to conduct services with only clergy and choir present. Parishioners have been asked to stay at home, with services broadcast online and on TV. Church officials have even partnered with the country’s biggest online retailer to sell traditional Easter bread consecrated at Kyiv’s St. Michael’s Golden-Domed Monastery, proving that even in the ultra-conservative world of Orthodoxy, it is possible to find modern solutions to modern problems.

    This flexibility has been largely absent from the Moscow Patriarchate’s response to the coronavirus crisis, which was initially marked by blanket refusals to follow the Ukrainian government’s anti-pandemic safety measures. Indeed, the head of the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra Monastery, which serves as the headquarters of the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine, was particularly outspoken in his dismissals. Metropolitan Pavel actively encouraged believers to attend church services and claimed the virus could be defeated by fasting, prayers and hugs. However, he was forced to change his tune once the monastery itself became an infection hot spot. On April 13, the Kyiv municipal authorities moved to close the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra Monastery following news of over one hundred coronavirus cases and at least two fatalities.

    In the wake of the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra Monastery closure, Moscow Patriarchate leader Metropolitan Onufriy issued a statement that hinted at compromise. He called on the Moscow Patriarchate to act in accordance with state quarantine regulations and vowed to no longer permit parishioners inside church buildings. However, unlike the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, he did not call on the faithful to stay at home. Instead, Metropolitan Onufriy promised believers that Easter services would proceed and invited them to come and pray outside churches, a move that could result in hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians venturing into villages, towns and cities across the country on Sunday with potentially deadly consequences.

    The battle lines are thus drawn as Easter Sunday approaches. On this holiest of holidays in the Orthodox calendar, followers of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine will mostly be celebrating at home, perhaps while enjoying traditional holiday treats ordered online. Meanwhile, many adherents of the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine will disregard bans on large public gatherings and flock to their churches to mark the festivities. In the fight against the pandemic, they will chose piety over patriotism. It is a choice that says much about the relative values of the two main Orthodox churches currently struggling for the soul of Ukraine.

    A nationalist writing for the Atlantic Council? Are you this dense?

    They can tolerate “nationalism” only if it serves the purpose of weakening Russia (or China) and strengthening the Trotskyite West. It’s a means to an end, but you can rest assured that it’s not the end itself. If Ukraine is ever severed from Russia and fully integrated with the West – unlikely to happen because of Crimea and the Donbass – all these Atlanticist organizations, including the pitiful Atlantic Council, will drop these pretenses quickly.

    Not only that, I can already see Trotskyite undercurrents being disseminated by Western-funded outlets and organizations in Ukraine. The LGBT lobby is a prime example, it has been growing since 2014 (the dislike to like ratio of the official parade in Kiev, covered & posted every year by the CIA’s Radio Liberty Ukrainian branch on YouTube, is decreasing on a yearly basis, I’m amazed at the consistency in attitude change). Another favorite Trotskyite strategy, that of riling up women against men is also growing (it helps to divide the votes and polarize society, making unity impossible and eliminating any chances of having an authoritative figure come to power… they can then fund the opposing sides for decades while making sure their cultural and economic policies are slowly but steadily implemented, and of course the nationalists will be on the losing side). Ukrainian men are targeted with talks of domestic violence, in other words, Ukrainian women are told to believe they are the victims of a patriarchal system. If Ukraine had enough non-whites, you’d see a growing and completely pre-planned voting bloc. They’ll make short work of Ukraine, it’s an ongoing process.

    Having watched the developments in the Anglosphere and Western Europe in the last decades, I know too well what to expect, and a nationalist triumph is certainly not part of the plan, LOL.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Well said. Any country that wants a healthy future should stop these sick bastards from even getting a foothold in their society.

    Prohibit any propaganda or gatherings by advocates of psychological disorder and sexual deviancy (homosexuality) and mental illness and self-mutilation (“transgenderism”). No positive portrayal of these disorders in tv, movies, billboards, etc. No pornography.

    Parades expressing “pride” in objectively filthy “sex” practices and deviancy should end with the participants in prison.

    Institute a school curriculum that plainly identifies these disorders as such.

    Any teacher or counselor encouraging a minor to become a deviant or indulge in harmful delusions or conduct (like “identifying” as the opposite sex or some nonexistent third sex) should be fired, prosecuted, fined, imprisoned, and barred from working with minors again.

    Don’t care about the disapproval of people who want to pervert your children and have your family and nation die out. Stand up, Russia and Ukraine, before it’s too late. Already the perverts and misfits have too much acceptance and growing influence in your societies. You don’t want to become like us.
  17. @AP

    Abroad, I don't know of any ROCOR-MP churches violating local government directives. If the UOC-MP is acting differently on the coronavirus matter, then it further proves how independent it is from the ROC-MP, contrary to svido disinformation.
     
    Or it proves that the Russian Church in Ukraine is more careful with Russian lives than with Ukrainian lives :-)

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/rival-ukraine-churches-clash-easter-lockdown-rules-70183822



    Ukraine's two rival Orthodox churches clashed Thursday over public health guidelines for forthcoming Easter celebrations, after the one said believers could gather outside places of worship despite a government ban on public gatherings due to the pandemic.

    The head of the Moscow-affiliated Orthodox Church in Ukraine did urge believers to stay home and watch televised Easter services. But Metropolitan Onufriy added that those who wanted could come and pray outside churches while maintaining social distancing.

    Orthodox Easter is celebrated this week, culminating in Easter Sunday on April 19.

    The rival independent Orthodox Church criticized Onufriy's statement Thursday, with its leader, Archbishop Yevstratiy, saying that it's a “Christian duty” to take care of others and stay home amid the pandemic.

    To emphasize the need for self-isolation, Yevstratiy pointed to an outbreak of 90 coronavirus cases at the historic Pechersk Monastery in Kyiv. The monastery, famous for its extensive system of caves and tunnels containing centuries-old cells for monks and burial places, was quarantined Monday.

    Or it proves that the Russian Church in Ukraine is more careful with Russian lives than with Ukrainian lives

    Makes no sense and on par with your interpretation of collaborate and cooperate:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/imperial-russian-terrorists/#comment-3838490

    Something isn’t right with your wiring.

    • Replies: @AP

    Makes no sense
     
    Translation: Mikhail can't read and it doesn't make sense to him.

    on par with your interpretation of collaborate and cooperate
     
    Translation: Mikhail can't learn either.

    Something isn’t right with your wiring.
     
    Projection.
    , @WHAT
    Well of course it is, one can`t be a svidomite and mentally sound at the same time.
    Is this creature in jewkraine even, or is he watching from afar, as most of them are, happy he`s not drafted to fight Chernobyl fires?
  18. @Mr. Hack
    After gaining absolutely no traction with Karlin's recent spurious claim that "American Evangelicals were running crazy" throughout Ukraine and hampering its vaccination programs, now this? Did Trump really say that Ukrainians were "terrible people" or did he say that they "weren't terrible people" (last I checked, these quotes have totally different meanings?). Regardless, looks like he must have recently eaten some nasty tasting Ukrainian salo. The only remedy for this, is for him to get some good, red Ukrainian borshch to get the bad taste out of his mouth. :-)

    I can't wait till I feast on the goodies within my Easter basket, tomorrow!

    Did Trump really say that Ukrainians were “terrible people” or did he say that they “weren’t terrible people” (last I checked, these quotes have totally different meanings?).

    The title feels like too much of a “Gotcha”.

    My guess is that he probably said some individual Ukrainians were terrible (perhaps related to “Ukrainegate”) – Trump frequently improvises and combined with his ineloquence (a poor habit for a public person by the way) makes it easy to claim that he said whatever, since in the end a lot of his words are simply waffle.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Perhaps, but the way that I read the link is that perhaps what Trump said was perceived by the author as some sort of a backhanded compliment. I think that it's not really clear, and anybody can make whatever they want of it, even Karlin. :-)
  19. @Hyperborean

    Did Trump really say that Ukrainians were “terrible people” or did he say that they “weren’t terrible people” (last I checked, these quotes have totally different meanings?).
     
    The title feels like too much of a "Gotcha".

    My guess is that he probably said some individual Ukrainians were terrible (perhaps related to "Ukrainegate") - Trump frequently improvises and combined with his ineloquence (a poor habit for a public person by the way) makes it easy to claim that he said whatever, since in the end a lot of his words are simply waffle.

    Perhaps, but the way that I read the link is that perhaps what Trump said was perceived by the author as some sort of a backhanded compliment. I think that it’s not really clear, and anybody can make whatever they want of it, even Karlin. 🙂

  20. @Mikhail

    Or it proves that the Russian Church in Ukraine is more careful with Russian lives than with Ukrainian lives
     
    Makes no sense and on par with your interpretation of collaborate and cooperate:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/imperial-russian-terrorists/#comment-3838490

    Something isn't right with your wiring.

    Makes no sense

    Translation: Mikhail can’t read and it doesn’t make sense to him.

    on par with your interpretation of collaborate and cooperate

    Translation: Mikhail can’t learn either.

    Something isn’t right with your wiring.

    Projection.

    • Troll: Mikhail
  21. Happy Easter to all, especially to our gracious host Anatoly Karlin. Христос Воскрес!

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    Христос воскресе!

    https://www.fondsk.ru/news/2020/04/18/hristos-voskrese-2020-50669.html
  22. @AP

    Abroad, I don't know of any ROCOR-MP churches violating local government directives. If the UOC-MP is acting differently on the coronavirus matter, then it further proves how independent it is from the ROC-MP, contrary to svido disinformation.
     
    Or it proves that the Russian Church in Ukraine is more careful with Russian lives than with Ukrainian lives :-)

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/rival-ukraine-churches-clash-easter-lockdown-rules-70183822



    Ukraine's two rival Orthodox churches clashed Thursday over public health guidelines for forthcoming Easter celebrations, after the one said believers could gather outside places of worship despite a government ban on public gatherings due to the pandemic.

    The head of the Moscow-affiliated Orthodox Church in Ukraine did urge believers to stay home and watch televised Easter services. But Metropolitan Onufriy added that those who wanted could come and pray outside churches while maintaining social distancing.

    Orthodox Easter is celebrated this week, culminating in Easter Sunday on April 19.

    The rival independent Orthodox Church criticized Onufriy's statement Thursday, with its leader, Archbishop Yevstratiy, saying that it's a “Christian duty” to take care of others and stay home amid the pandemic.

    To emphasize the need for self-isolation, Yevstratiy pointed to an outbreak of 90 coronavirus cases at the historic Pechersk Monastery in Kyiv. The monastery, famous for its extensive system of caves and tunnels containing centuries-old cells for monks and burial places, was quarantined Monday.

    Or it proves that the Russian Church in Ukraine is more careful with Russian lives than with Ukrainian lives

    What a braindead take, why would they try to exterminate their supporters? As usual the low intellectual base of ukrainian nationalists shows its head.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin, Derer
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    At this thread, he suggested that the newly formed "Orthodox Church in Ukraine" is more practically in sync on the coronavirus pandemic than the established Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which is loosely affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate.

    AP has previously suggested that the latter aforementioned church is an appendage (the opposite of loosely affiliated) of the Moscow Patriarchate, while not calling it by its actual name - instead preferring the PC svido label. He has no comeback to the fact based realities to the contrary.

    Much like his BS claiming that Vlasov was a Nazi collaborator unlike Bandera and Krasnov. A dunce cap is befitting beside his moniker.

    BTW, the BBC just had segments showing that good numbers of the Georgian Orthodox Church in Georgia and Greek Orthodox Church in Greece aren't following coronavirus safety guidelines. In NY, some have criticized Governor Cuomo, for not being so critical of those Hasidim, gathering in close numbers during funerals. US media has noted some evangelical Christians going against the coronavirus safety guidelines.

    So, its' not just the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, loosely affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate that has come under criticism.
    , @AP

    What a braindead take, why would they try to exterminate their supporters?
     
    If you weren't autistic you would read that comment as facetious. I'm not surprised Mikhail failed to understand it, but you have surprised me.

    That having been said, how does the Russian State treat the Russian people of Donbas?

    Happy Easter! Hope you are home.

  23. @Belarusian Dude

    Or it proves that the Russian Church in Ukraine is more careful with Russian lives than with Ukrainian lives
     
    What a braindead take, why would they try to exterminate their supporters? As usual the low intellectual base of ukrainian nationalists shows its head.

    At this thread, he suggested that the newly formed “Orthodox Church in Ukraine” is more practically in sync on the coronavirus pandemic than the established Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which is loosely affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate.

    AP has previously suggested that the latter aforementioned church is an appendage (the opposite of loosely affiliated) of the Moscow Patriarchate, while not calling it by its actual name – instead preferring the PC svido label. He has no comeback to the fact based realities to the contrary.

    Much like his BS claiming that Vlasov was a Nazi collaborator unlike Bandera and Krasnov. A dunce cap is befitting beside his moniker.

    BTW, the BBC just had segments showing that good numbers of the Georgian Orthodox Church in Georgia and Greek Orthodox Church in Greece aren’t following coronavirus safety guidelines. In NY, some have criticized Governor Cuomo, for not being so critical of those Hasidim, gathering in close numbers during funerals. US media has noted some evangelical Christians going against the coronavirus safety guidelines.

    So, its’ not just the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, loosely affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate that has come under criticism.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    On the subject of churches, this is from someone familiar with Sweden:

    https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/sweden-is-right-the-economy-should-be-left-open/#comment-3845363

    Churches in Sweden are open, there are services, and very few people wear masks.
     
    The was a Western mass media bit on countries lax on the coronavirus. The three highlighted countries in that segment are Brazil, Belarus and Nicaragua.

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=lDmcXuD0BeLp_Qb7jJ-YCw&q=coronavirus+brazil+belarus+nicaragua&oq=coronavirus+brazil+belarus+nicaragua&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDoFCAAQgwE6AggAOgUIABDNAjoFCCEQoAE6BQghEKsCOgcIIRAKEKABOgQIIRAKUMQMWK-jAWCsqgFoAHAAeACAAVeIAeMRkgECMziYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjgjtDstPToAhXidN8KHXvGB7MQ4dUDCAw#spf=1587296682030

    Sweden wasn't mentioned for reasons that are likely PC related. Brazil's leader has been chastised for being Trump like, Nicaragua has an ex Sandinista as president, many of us know about how Luka and Belarus are portrayed. If I'm not offhand mistaken, until recently, Japan was kind of lax on coronavirus preventive measures.
  24. Regarding the British mass media coverage of the coronanvirus pandemic in the UK and Russia:

    https://www.rt.com/op-ed/486229-british-media-russia-coronavirus/

  25. Every time I hear or read a story about the US needing aid from anyone,

    the Ukraine . . . or any other state

    I cringe. Just rings as something deeply and fundamentally amiss with our leadership.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    Americans are highly accustomed to seeing themselves as the country all the other countries look to for aid and support, as a country with almost limitless money, capacity and technological and industrial capability so the US reduced to being a country that looks for charity from other countries must amount to an existential crisis for them.

    It seems to me that the US doesn't have a lot that unifies it as one country beyond the illusion that they are the sole "superpower".
    , @Donald A Thomson
    All NATO countries are as bad as the USA. Australia and New Zealand delayed the outbreak because they had Trump-like restrictions on entry and the admittedly inadequate EU levels of testing and contact tracing. When we reached 4 times the Chinese total infected rate per million, we switched to Chinese tactics: more testing and social distancing. That's the only reason we have done 10 times better than the USA. Ape the winners like the USA is now doing. When all you've got is a low tech response, China is better than the USA. How can anybody be surprised? When they were much poorer, they could organise large teams of Africans to build railways and bridges. Now, I'd be surprised if Chinese engineers could do that. [email protected]
    , @Dmitry
    Some of this is more psychology, rather than capacity. Ukraine had an advantage of being one of the more scared and panicked countries, partly because of they know their own weakness. But panicking is perhaps not a bad thing for epidemics. Ukraine quarantine early, and made everyone wear paper masks. Whether Ukraine's panicking is successful or not to slowing the epidemic, we will probably know in a few weeks.

    In the UK, they had an opposite psychological reaction, and saw it as some kind of chance to test their healthcare system. Russia - somewhere between the two points. And, America - I'm not sure anyone can make sense of their policies.

  26. Maybe Karlin should spend more time talking about the absolutely shambolic response Russia has come up with so far? Though fortunately their health system still is not saturated at this point.

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    You have seen the deaths in Russia..... and then the deaths for every single other western country? LOL what a dumb comment! It sticks out how wonderfully low the number has been.

    Proportionally very low number of cases(massively inflated because of mass testing from which 40% have been asymptomatic)

    Only the countries noted for extreme wealth and great health system are doing better in recoveries:deaths ratio- usual suspects of Israel, Switzerland and Austria

    Only danger as Moscow gets better, is if there is going to be massive infections in the rest of the country - but who knows
  27. @Mikhail
    At this thread, he suggested that the newly formed "Orthodox Church in Ukraine" is more practically in sync on the coronavirus pandemic than the established Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which is loosely affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate.

    AP has previously suggested that the latter aforementioned church is an appendage (the opposite of loosely affiliated) of the Moscow Patriarchate, while not calling it by its actual name - instead preferring the PC svido label. He has no comeback to the fact based realities to the contrary.

    Much like his BS claiming that Vlasov was a Nazi collaborator unlike Bandera and Krasnov. A dunce cap is befitting beside his moniker.

    BTW, the BBC just had segments showing that good numbers of the Georgian Orthodox Church in Georgia and Greek Orthodox Church in Greece aren't following coronavirus safety guidelines. In NY, some have criticized Governor Cuomo, for not being so critical of those Hasidim, gathering in close numbers during funerals. US media has noted some evangelical Christians going against the coronavirus safety guidelines.

    So, its' not just the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, loosely affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate that has come under criticism.

    On the subject of churches, this is from someone familiar with Sweden:

    https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/sweden-is-right-the-economy-should-be-left-open/#comment-3845363

    Churches in Sweden are open, there are services, and very few people wear masks.

    The was a Western mass media bit on countries lax on the coronavirus. The three highlighted countries in that segment are Brazil, Belarus and Nicaragua.

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=lDmcXuD0BeLp_Qb7jJ-YCw&q=coronavirus+brazil+belarus+nicaragua&oq=coronavirus+brazil+belarus+nicaragua&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDoFCAAQgwE6AggAOgUIABDNAjoFCCEQoAE6BQghEKsCOgcIIRAKEKABOgQIIRAKUMQMWK-jAWCsqgFoAHAAeACAAVeIAeMRkgECMziYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjgjtDstPToAhXidN8KHXvGB7MQ4dUDCAw#spf=1587296682030

    Sweden wasn’t mentioned for reasons that are likely PC related. Brazil’s leader has been chastised for being Trump like, Nicaragua has an ex Sandinista as president, many of us know about how Luka and Belarus are portrayed. If I’m not offhand mistaken, until recently, Japan was kind of lax on coronavirus preventive measures.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    On the subject of churches, this is from someone familiar with Sweden:

    https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/sweden-is-right-the-economy-should-be-left-open/#comment-3845363

    "Churches in Sweden are open, there are services, and very few people wear masks."
     

    All true, but keep in mind that people over seventy are told to avoid public spaces and that we want the under-70s to catch the virus sooner rather than later. By our present model, the Stockholm region passed its infection peak five days ago, with some third of Stockholmers now having caught the virus.

    https://www.svd.se/professor-stockholm-kan-na-flockimmunitet-i-maj

  28. Somewhat offtopic, but Anatoly and others reading in russian will probably like it:

    https://jpgazeta.ru/shue-gerych-dva-nozha-skromnoe-obayanie-libertarianskoj-partii-mihaila-svetova/

  29. AP says:
    @Belarusian Dude

    Or it proves that the Russian Church in Ukraine is more careful with Russian lives than with Ukrainian lives
     
    What a braindead take, why would they try to exterminate their supporters? As usual the low intellectual base of ukrainian nationalists shows its head.

    What a braindead take, why would they try to exterminate their supporters?

    If you weren’t autistic you would read that comment as facetious. I’m not surprised Mikhail failed to understand it, but you have surprised me.

    That having been said, how does the Russian State treat the Russian people of Donbas?

    Happy Easter! Hope you are home.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Troll: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Belarusian Dude
    you can't just back pedal any statements as "lol I was being retarded ironically." After applying Occam's Razor and considering Poe's Law this seems like a big fat cope for having a poor take.
  30. [W]hy historians on the left have not studied the class struggles provoked by cholera, with riots of 10,000, murdering state officials and doctors, destroying hospitals, town halls, and in the case of Donetsk, an entire city.

    The 1888 cholera riots in Donetsk and subsequent crackdown set the stage for the Russian revolution, according to Joshua S. Loomis. Backward Ukraine is still playing they EC game after everyone else has quit. It’s not a wealthy country, it is going to suffer badly. Getting pally with China is not going to help with Ukraine’s Russian problem, although a lot of things are going to be of less significance in the new reality.

  31. @128
    Maybe Karlin should spend more time talking about the absolutely shambolic response Russia has come up with so far? Though fortunately their health system still is not saturated at this point.

    You have seen the deaths in Russia….. and then the deaths for every single other western country? LOL what a dumb comment! It sticks out how wonderfully low the number has been.

    Proportionally very low number of cases(massively inflated because of mass testing from which 40% have been asymptomatic)

    Only the countries noted for extreme wealth and great health system are doing better in recoveries:deaths ratio- usual suspects of Israel, Switzerland and Austria

    Only danger as Moscow gets better, is if there is going to be massive infections in the rest of the country – but who knows

  32. @Mikhail

    Or it proves that the Russian Church in Ukraine is more careful with Russian lives than with Ukrainian lives
     
    Makes no sense and on par with your interpretation of collaborate and cooperate:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/imperial-russian-terrorists/#comment-3838490

    Something isn't right with your wiring.

    Well of course it is, one can`t be a svidomite and mentally sound at the same time.
    Is this creature in jewkraine even, or is he watching from afar, as most of them are, happy he`s not drafted to fight Chernobyl fires?

  33. @Felix Keverich
    In the meantime Tatarstan becomes the first region in Russia to mandate wearing masks. Hooray!

    https://lenta.ru/news/2020/04/18/tatarstan/

    With this they can dump every other moronic restriction they implemented since late March. People shouldn't need SMS-passes to go outside.

    You are such a faux-nationalist poseur. One day you are criticising the authorities for being too soft on rules and enforcement over the virus–the next week you go 180 degrees the other way.

    I would agree that bans/strong recommendations on over 65s in certain have to be rescinded – particularly as everybody is adapting to social distancing concept. QR codes working fine in Tatarstan, not much traffic problems in Kazan, fines infrequent, QR very easy to get actually. Current measures in Moscow of only needing them for car or public transport are just right, Tatarstan we went too far – but this is reduced by the fact that quite alot of businesses are still open as usual

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    That’s usual for Russian libtards. Best expressed by the joke (it rhymes in Russian): “I drink, I smoke, and I am not married. All of this is Putin’s fault”.
  34. @EliteCommInc.
    Every time I hear or read a story about the US needing aid from anyone,

    the Ukraine . . . or any other state


    I cringe. Just rings as something deeply and fundamentally amiss with our leadership.

    Americans are highly accustomed to seeing themselves as the country all the other countries look to for aid and support, as a country with almost limitless money, capacity and technological and industrial capability so the US reduced to being a country that looks for charity from other countries must amount to an existential crisis for them.

    It seems to me that the US doesn’t have a lot that unifies it as one country beyond the illusion that they are the sole “superpower”.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    Most Americans do not spend much time thinking about the rest of the world.
  35. @AP
    Ukrainian government tells everyone to stay home, and locks down the country. Lukashenko tells everyone to carry on as normal, go to hockey games, etc.

    Ukrainian government

    Jewish-American-Polish prostitute government….. or is that American-Jewish-Polish prostitute government?

    Tells everyone to stay at home, locksdown the whole country

    Pitiful, Authoritarian state with no civil society agrees to kill itself…. again. To make matters worse- tries to push through the land reform Bill during the lockdown.
    Most importantly, it all but admits the deranged loser failure of its anti-sovietism (soviet heritage stuff being the only thing giving it any resemblance of health care) American Controlled health-system in the last 6 years. LOL. A disaster. To make this farce even more comical…. appoints 3 health ministers in a month, just at the time when some stability in the health department is needed.

    Lukashenko tells everyone to carry on

    Belarus has a functioning health system, Ukraine has none.
    Belarus, unlike Banderastan actually does plenty of testing, hospitals are not at breaking-point, and has had lower number of deaths–all whilst keeping its economy going, with the added relief that its economy is nowhere near as reliant on remittances as Ukraine (guaranteed 3% drop from whole gdp based on remittances alone)

    Belarus is also exponentially better governed, more prosperous and richer and stable than ukropia – even with the mistakes Lukashenko has made with Russia and over the Coronavirus in the last couple of months. Its much most likely to be giving truer statistics than ukrops obviously fake ones….. and not with 20% of them being medics with coronavirus!

    But still, no real point debating with a satanic entity who can’t speak a word of Russian or “Ukrainian”, I have no reason to believe has ever been to either state and is a habitual liar ( Karlin – I hope this is acceptable language)

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN

    appoints 3 health ministers in a month, just at the time when some stability in the health department is needed.
     
    Depends on your starting point. They had a pretty dumb American nurse as a health minister for some years. They fired her – that’s progress.
  36. @YetAnotherAnon
    My understanding is that the Chinese test kits ('are you infected?') they used in Wuhan gave a 30% "negative" result on people who were actually hospitalised with clinical CV19 symptoms.

    https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.2020200642

    And that the UK are looking at antibody test kits ('were you infected?') and "none of the tests we have validated would meet the criteria for a good test as agreed with the MHRA."

    https://www.research.ox.ac.uk/Article/2020-04-05-trouble-in-testing-land

    Looks as if you can be pretty sure that an "are you infected" test with a positive result is correct, but you're not necessarily cleared by a negative result.

    I've not seen any detail on the problems with the antibody testing, just that there are problems.

    Lukashenko was complaining because the Russian test kits have too many false positives.

    Lol, he preferred the Chinese test kits, with too many false negatives. It’s a bit like Trump who preferred the cruise ship does not land in the USA in February, because: “I don’t need to have the numbers [of confirmed U.S. coronavirus cases] double because of one ship. ”

    However, really, it’s just Lukashenko wants a chance to say something from Russia is trash, while he diplomatically would not criticize something from China – one of his recent (more logical) projects is to attract Chinese investment.

    • Replies: @Insurance
    I always wonder why Russia prop up Belarus. They never be part of Russia again. Regular people want to go Polish way. Russia should cut loses. Once Lukashenko is gone, Belarus would have pro west goverment in months.
  37. @AnonFromTN

    America needs more help than Ukraine, and should keep everything it has for its own population until the epidemiological situation improves.
     
    In terms of incompetence, as revealed by the epidemic, Ukrainian government is #1 without rivals, the US government is #2. The governments of Belarus and Brazil are in dead heat for #3.

    Ukraine does hard lockdown and mass mask usage, but no mass testing (though Ukrainian testing is picking up at last).

    Belarus does mass testing, but no lockdown or mass mask usage.

    Will be interesting to compare trajectories.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Relatively positive experience of South Korea, Vietnam, and Singapore shows that the best strategy is mass testing and isolation of those infected. Lockdown or testing alone wouldn’t cut it. It’s like trying to run on one leg, instead of two.
  38. @Mr. Hack
    Happy Easter to all, especially to our gracious host Anatoly Karlin. Христос Воскрес!

    https://i.etsystatic.com/5198645/r/il/560036/93584047/il_794xN.93584047.jpg
  39. @AnonFromTN

    America needs more help than Ukraine, and should keep everything it has for its own population until the epidemiological situation improves.
     
    In terms of incompetence, as revealed by the epidemic, Ukrainian government is #1 without rivals, the US government is #2. The governments of Belarus and Brazil are in dead heat for #3.

    Ukraine’s government response to the epidemic was possibly more suitable – for their weak starting position – than average.

    They have tried the only strategy available for a country with reduced state capacity and health service, as well as favourable climatic conditions for the epidemic to develop: overpanic, lock down Kiev, and have most of the country’s population to wear paper (possibly not very effective, but also probably better than nothing) medical masks.

    They had greater supply of medical masks and sanitizers than other countries – I assume China had oversupplied them.

    Obviously, the anti-epidemic capacity of the Soviet Union has been dismantled, and they also have to be careful not to lock down too early.

    As for behaviour of the population. From what the little I could see, people are behaving worse to undermine the effectiveness of this expensive lockdown in North West Europe, than in Ukraine. North Western Europeans might be the most rebellious people during epidemics.

  40. @Anatoly Karlin
    Ukraine does hard lockdown and mass mask usage, but no mass testing (though Ukrainian testing is picking up at last).

    Belarus does mass testing, but no lockdown or mass mask usage.

    Will be interesting to compare trajectories.

    Relatively positive experience of South Korea, Vietnam, and Singapore shows that the best strategy is mass testing and isolation of those infected. Lockdown or testing alone wouldn’t cut it. It’s like trying to run on one leg, instead of two.

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    Absolutely correct - although I would say those countries you listed have it easier because they were alot less susceptible to the European wave of infections, than they were to the Chinese, obviously because not so many westerners visit those countries.

    Ukraine had no capacity or moral will to look after their citizens returning from even the Chinese wave of infections, any of the belated and pitiful attempts to quarantine them were met by hellish scumbags of the Bandera-inbreeding type who sabatoged the quarantine of miniscule amounts of people. Not allocating the capacity for it is a national disgrace. Because of that, to then have to go into an immediate, strict lockdown is also a national joke.

    Russia and in fact most of the other East European and western States did
    quarantine many thousands of people in government facilities upon arriving at the airport from affected Asian countries countries.... until the wave of infections from western Europe and then domestically became too much and self-isolation at home was the preferred option

    Important to note that Russia blows all Eastern European EU countries our of the water in terms of visitors/tourism to western European countries and Turkey of course, which has had large numbers of infections. Czechs, proportionally have more interconnectivity with Germany, Austria and Italy, Poles (whose supposed"wealth" I have never ever seen a Polish tourist in Spain, Cyprus or Italy or Greece LOL) have more interconnectivity with UK and Germany but nowhere else compared to Russia

    Considering our Chinese border also- we are doing quite well.
  41. @Mikhail
    On the subject of churches, this is from someone familiar with Sweden:

    https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/sweden-is-right-the-economy-should-be-left-open/#comment-3845363

    Churches in Sweden are open, there are services, and very few people wear masks.
     
    The was a Western mass media bit on countries lax on the coronavirus. The three highlighted countries in that segment are Brazil, Belarus and Nicaragua.

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=lDmcXuD0BeLp_Qb7jJ-YCw&q=coronavirus+brazil+belarus+nicaragua&oq=coronavirus+brazil+belarus+nicaragua&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDoFCAAQgwE6AggAOgUIABDNAjoFCCEQoAE6BQghEKsCOgcIIRAKEKABOgQIIRAKUMQMWK-jAWCsqgFoAHAAeACAAVeIAeMRkgECMziYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjgjtDstPToAhXidN8KHXvGB7MQ4dUDCAw#spf=1587296682030

    Sweden wasn't mentioned for reasons that are likely PC related. Brazil's leader has been chastised for being Trump like, Nicaragua has an ex Sandinista as president, many of us know about how Luka and Belarus are portrayed. If I'm not offhand mistaken, until recently, Japan was kind of lax on coronavirus preventive measures.

    On the subject of churches, this is from someone familiar with Sweden:

    https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/sweden-is-right-the-economy-should-be-left-open/#comment-3845363

    “Churches in Sweden are open, there are services, and very few people wear masks.”

    All true, but keep in mind that people over seventy are told to avoid public spaces and that we want the under-70s to catch the virus sooner rather than later. By our present model, the Stockholm region passed its infection peak five days ago, with some third of Stockholmers now having caught the virus.

    https://www.svd.se/professor-stockholm-kan-na-flockimmunitet-i-maj

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    It’s based on highly questionable assumptions.

    By the way it’s even unclear if the Swedish strategy is that different from the response elsewhere. Most office workers work from home, for example.
  42. @AP
    Ukrainian government tells everyone to stay home, and locks down the country. Lukashenko tells everyone to carry on as normal, go to hockey games, etc.

    Hello from Mexico.

    Here in the little town i lived, no one, I say again No ONE believes this scaremongering virus craze. We asked several people, here and in the USA, our friends, if they KNOW any one dead of this virus, or sick, and NO ONE has seen a friend, or knows a friend who is either dead or sick! Of course the simple keep getting scared, and I just look in disbelieve how some people who only watch TV, keep getting scared. A friend of mine, told me recently, of course there are many dead… after pausing he said, on TV of course. our population is only 18 thousand, and I went to one of the two hospitals in town to ask if any sick people have arrived to their location and the nurse looked me straight in the eye and said, “some of us don’t believe in this scaremongering.”. So…no, no sick people besides one construction worker who fell from the third floor two days ago.

  43. @Dmitry
    Lukashenko was complaining because the Russian test kits have too many false positives.

    Lol, he preferred the Chinese test kits, with too many false negatives. It's a bit like Trump who preferred the cruise ship does not land in the USA in February, because: "I don't need to have the numbers [of confirmed U.S. coronavirus cases] double because of one ship. "

    However, really, it's just Lukashenko wants a chance to say something from Russia is trash, while he diplomatically would not criticize something from China - one of his recent (more logical) projects is to attract Chinese investment.

    I always wonder why Russia prop up Belarus. They never be part of Russia again. Regular people want to go Polish way. Russia should cut loses. Once Lukashenko is gone, Belarus would have pro west goverment in months.

    • Replies: @WHAT
    Lol, dream on, nobody outside of very obvious paid cucks wants to "go polish way" there.
    , @anonymous coward

    Regular people want to go Polish way.
     
    Two points:
    a) There is no 'Polish way'; by 'Polish way' you really mean 'German way'.
    b) There won't be a 'German way' in a couple decades. Germans can't into politics and statesmanship, and never could. The EU is stillborn.
  44. @Swedish Family

    On the subject of churches, this is from someone familiar with Sweden:

    https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/sweden-is-right-the-economy-should-be-left-open/#comment-3845363

    "Churches in Sweden are open, there are services, and very few people wear masks."
     

    All true, but keep in mind that people over seventy are told to avoid public spaces and that we want the under-70s to catch the virus sooner rather than later. By our present model, the Stockholm region passed its infection peak five days ago, with some third of Stockholmers now having caught the virus.

    https://www.svd.se/professor-stockholm-kan-na-flockimmunitet-i-maj

    It’s based on highly questionable assumptions.

    By the way it’s even unclear if the Swedish strategy is that different from the response elsewhere. Most office workers work from home, for example.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    It’s based on highly questionable assumptions.

    By the way it’s even unclear if the Swedish strategy is that different from the response elsewhere. Most office workers work from home, for example.
     
    It's possible, but remember that these modellers have access to far more detailed data than outsiders.

    More broadly, I think a lot of these back and forths we're having come down to whom people put their trust in. I was in the doomsday camp back in January-February (in part from reading this blog, heh) but warmed to the Swedish model as more data came in. It might still be horribly off -- especially if we consider hard-to-model second-order effects like permanent microdamages among survivors* -- but I think most signs are that it isn't and that other countries will start taking after Sweden in the weeks to come.

    * A counterargument to this is that people in countries that "flatten the curve" will face those exact same risks -- only later -- so why ravage your economy over them? Treatments might improve as the lockdowns go on, sure, but if our model is right, vanishingly few infected seek medical help and so won't be affected by any improvement in that area. Vaccines, too, might change the calculus, but I don't see any first-world country keeping these hard lockdowns in place till 2021 and beyond.
  45. Why are the Belarussian and Ukrainian people want more to be part of the Western world than be with Russia? It is like centuries of common history means nothing to them.

    • Replies: @AP

    It is like centuries of common history means nothing to them.
     
    Or, it may mean quite a lot. And explains the westward wishes.

    However there are as many centuries of common history with the West as with Russia in those lands.

    , @Rattus Norwegius
    "It is like centuries of common history means nothing to them."
    I doubt that centuries old history is the reason that Ukrainians now want to integrate with Atlanticist institutions. Besides the Atlanticist world as we know it only got it's current form post world war 2. Recent history is probably why Ukrainians look west. What they see is that western countries are more prosporous than their own. They also see that countries that chose to join Atlanticist institutions, and was accepted by the old boys like Poland have done much better than Ukraine. Geopolitical turns don't need to have ancient roots.
  46. @AnonFromTN
    Relatively positive experience of South Korea, Vietnam, and Singapore shows that the best strategy is mass testing and isolation of those infected. Lockdown or testing alone wouldn’t cut it. It’s like trying to run on one leg, instead of two.

    Absolutely correct – although I would say those countries you listed have it easier because they were alot less susceptible to the European wave of infections, than they were to the Chinese, obviously because not so many westerners visit those countries.

    Ukraine had no capacity or moral will to look after their citizens returning from even the Chinese wave of infections, any of the belated and pitiful attempts to quarantine them were met by hellish scumbags of the Bandera-inbreeding type who sabatoged the quarantine of miniscule amounts of people. Not allocating the capacity for it is a national disgrace. Because of that, to then have to go into an immediate, strict lockdown is also a national joke.

    Russia and in fact most of the other East European and western States did
    quarantine many thousands of people in government facilities upon arriving at the airport from affected Asian countries countries…. until the wave of infections from western Europe and then domestically became too much and self-isolation at home was the preferred option

    Important to note that Russia blows all Eastern European EU countries our of the water in terms of visitors/tourism to western European countries and Turkey of course, which has had large numbers of infections. Czechs, proportionally have more interconnectivity with Germany, Austria and Italy, Poles (whose supposed”wealth” I have never ever seen a Polish tourist in Spain, Cyprus or Italy or Greece LOL) have more interconnectivity with UK and Germany but nowhere else compared to Russia

    Considering our Chinese border also- we are doing quite well.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    As far as I know, the virus in Russia is mostly of European, not Chinese, origin. While Vietnam and South Korea do not get many tourists relative to their population, Singapore gets lots. Many Southern Chinese used to shop there (the whole country is a huge shopping mall, even to get to the street from their metro you have to pass through a shopping mall in many places). There are lots of flights through Singapore. When I wanted to get from Germany to Malaysia, flying through Singapore was the only option. As far as I know, everyone flying from Europe to Australia also goes through Singapore. Also, there is no problem stopping over there for as long as you want: Singapore does not require visas from anyone; unlike Turkey they don’t even charge you for their pretend visa, just stamp your passport and let you in. Singapore is also one of very few countries where money changers do not charge you a fee, whether you change into their money or out of it.

    So, I would imagine they had a lot of potential spreaders, but managed to keep things in check.
  47. “Americans are highly accustomed to seeing themselves as the country all the other countries look to for aid and support, as a country with almost limitless money, capacity and technological and industrial capability so the US reduced to being a country that looks for charity from other countries must amount to an existential crisis for them.”

    I love Europe as Europe . . . I think there is value in being part of the global community. That said, what binds the colonies together is a common history and rooted in relationship to two documents

    1. the Declaration of Independence and
    2. the Constitution of the US

    What we lack is Europe’s history — which as to age is a negative, but as to circumstances and relations a Godsend in multiple ways. We have our issues and atrocities — but nothing of the violence, intrigue, and instability that serves as background for Eurpoeans and current European stability.

    The US sees itself as givers because we are. No country on the planet delivers as much aide in every way with the speed, consistency of the US in both public and private charitable giving. That is not a belief founded on self delusion — that is a fact that can be counted in real terms.

    And while some may see the US as limitless money pot. I never have. And have consistently, and repeatedly challenged our global footprint of needless and counter productive adventures as have others. We don’t have limitless money, technology (though here in terms of innovation — how one caps technological development is a tough call – that for any entity is the case), we do not have limitless resources, nor industrial capacity. Much of what have is from not following the repeatedly disastrous events that have mangled and devastated Europe for centuries. And we should have retracted that giving and extension years a years ago in response to global realities as a matter of survival and fitness. Which would maintained our ability to give.

    You are correct in this, at least for me. If we are having to import foreign aid — that is an existentialist threat. And in my view a waning sign tat the leadership is absolutely in a state of consistent an prolonged failure. That is not about being populist — that is about identity maintenance.

  48. @Insurance
    I always wonder why Russia prop up Belarus. They never be part of Russia again. Regular people want to go Polish way. Russia should cut loses. Once Lukashenko is gone, Belarus would have pro west goverment in months.

    Lol, dream on, nobody outside of very obvious paid cucks wants to “go polish way” there.

  49. @karl1haushofer
    Why are the Belarussian and Ukrainian people want more to be part of the Western world than be with Russia? It is like centuries of common history means nothing to them.

    It is like centuries of common history means nothing to them.

    Or, it may mean quite a lot. And explains the westward wishes.

    However there are as many centuries of common history with the West as with Russia in those lands.

    • Replies: @karl1haushofer
    How many millions of Ukrainian and Belarussians did Germany kill in the 20th century again?
    , @Swedish Family

    However there are as many centuries of common history with the West as with Russia in those lands.
     
    You have written this many times before, and I will keep instisting that you are (willfully) conflating dead history with living history.
  50. @AP

    It is like centuries of common history means nothing to them.
     
    Or, it may mean quite a lot. And explains the westward wishes.

    However there are as many centuries of common history with the West as with Russia in those lands.

    How many millions of Ukrainian and Belarussians did Germany kill in the 20th century again?

    • Replies: @AP

    How many millions of Ukrainian and Belarussians did Germany kill in the 20th century again?
     
    AFAIK not as many Ukrainians, as were killed by Stalin plus Lenin in the 20th century.
  51. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    You are such a faux-nationalist poseur. One day you are criticising the authorities for being too soft on rules and enforcement over the virus--the next week you go 180 degrees the other way.

    I would agree that bans/strong recommendations on over 65s in certain have to be rescinded - particularly as everybody is adapting to social distancing concept. QR codes working fine in Tatarstan, not much traffic problems in Kazan, fines infrequent, QR very easy to get actually. Current measures in Moscow of only needing them for car or public transport are just right, Tatarstan we went too far - but this is reduced by the fact that quite alot of businesses are still open as usual

    That’s usual for Russian libtards. Best expressed by the joke (it rhymes in Russian): “I drink, I smoke, and I am not married. All of this is Putin’s fault”.

  52. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    Absolutely correct - although I would say those countries you listed have it easier because they were alot less susceptible to the European wave of infections, than they were to the Chinese, obviously because not so many westerners visit those countries.

    Ukraine had no capacity or moral will to look after their citizens returning from even the Chinese wave of infections, any of the belated and pitiful attempts to quarantine them were met by hellish scumbags of the Bandera-inbreeding type who sabatoged the quarantine of miniscule amounts of people. Not allocating the capacity for it is a national disgrace. Because of that, to then have to go into an immediate, strict lockdown is also a national joke.

    Russia and in fact most of the other East European and western States did
    quarantine many thousands of people in government facilities upon arriving at the airport from affected Asian countries countries.... until the wave of infections from western Europe and then domestically became too much and self-isolation at home was the preferred option

    Important to note that Russia blows all Eastern European EU countries our of the water in terms of visitors/tourism to western European countries and Turkey of course, which has had large numbers of infections. Czechs, proportionally have more interconnectivity with Germany, Austria and Italy, Poles (whose supposed"wealth" I have never ever seen a Polish tourist in Spain, Cyprus or Italy or Greece LOL) have more interconnectivity with UK and Germany but nowhere else compared to Russia

    Considering our Chinese border also- we are doing quite well.

    As far as I know, the virus in Russia is mostly of European, not Chinese, origin. While Vietnam and South Korea do not get many tourists relative to their population, Singapore gets lots. Many Southern Chinese used to shop there (the whole country is a huge shopping mall, even to get to the street from their metro you have to pass through a shopping mall in many places). There are lots of flights through Singapore. When I wanted to get from Germany to Malaysia, flying through Singapore was the only option. As far as I know, everyone flying from Europe to Australia also goes through Singapore. Also, there is no problem stopping over there for as long as you want: Singapore does not require visas from anyone; unlike Turkey they don’t even charge you for their pretend visa, just stamp your passport and let you in. Singapore is also one of very few countries where money changers do not charge you a fee, whether you change into their money or out of it.

    So, I would imagine they had a lot of potential spreaders, but managed to keep things in check.

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    All fair points..... you can add UAE for similar reasons. I think you're correct about the flights via there to get to Australia- though I thought it was also Japan and Malaysia sometimes used.

    The last flights, other than from EEA countries that Russian authorities banned, were from UAE( my brother was lucky in that he happened to be booked on what turned out to be the very last flight back, after using UAE as a stop-over route) , UK and USA - I was surprised the authorities weren't criticised for this because it sounds oligarch-ish centered
  53. @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    Ukrainian government
     
    Jewish-American-Polish prostitute government..... or is that American-Jewish-Polish prostitute government?

    Tells everyone to stay at home, locksdown the whole country
     
    Pitiful, Authoritarian state with no civil society agrees to kill itself.... again. To make matters worse- tries to push through the land reform Bill during the lockdown.
    Most importantly, it all but admits the deranged loser failure of its anti-sovietism (soviet heritage stuff being the only thing giving it any resemblance of health care) American Controlled health-system in the last 6 years. LOL. A disaster. To make this farce even more comical.... appoints 3 health ministers in a month, just at the time when some stability in the health department is needed.

    Lukashenko tells everyone to carry on
     
    Belarus has a functioning health system, Ukraine has none.
    Belarus, unlike Banderastan actually does plenty of testing, hospitals are not at breaking-point, and has had lower number of deaths--all whilst keeping its economy going, with the added relief that its economy is nowhere near as reliant on remittances as Ukraine (guaranteed 3% drop from whole gdp based on remittances alone)

    Belarus is also exponentially better governed, more prosperous and richer and stable than ukropia - even with the mistakes Lukashenko has made with Russia and over the Coronavirus in the last couple of months. Its much most likely to be giving truer statistics than ukrops obviously fake ones..... and not with 20% of them being medics with coronavirus!

    But still, no real point debating with a satanic entity who can't speak a word of Russian or "Ukrainian", I have no reason to believe has ever been to either state and is a habitual liar ( Karlin - I hope this is acceptable language)

    appoints 3 health ministers in a month, just at the time when some stability in the health department is needed.

    Depends on your starting point. They had a pretty dumb American nurse as a health minister for some years. They fired her – that’s progress.

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    LOL- Suprun was yet another abysmal OTT freak.

    At least Yushchenko's wife, though she was from the typical State Department, North American Banderetards background ... always conducted herself in the specific style of the educated, high-culture loving Soviet woman once she got into Ukraine. Smart approach by an otherwise highly flawed couple
  54. @reiner Tor
    It’s based on highly questionable assumptions.

    By the way it’s even unclear if the Swedish strategy is that different from the response elsewhere. Most office workers work from home, for example.

    It’s based on highly questionable assumptions.

    By the way it’s even unclear if the Swedish strategy is that different from the response elsewhere. Most office workers work from home, for example.

    It’s possible, but remember that these modellers have access to far more detailed data than outsiders.

    More broadly, I think a lot of these back and forths we’re having come down to whom people put their trust in. I was in the doomsday camp back in January-February (in part from reading this blog, heh) but warmed to the Swedish model as more data came in. It might still be horribly off — especially if we consider hard-to-model second-order effects like permanent microdamages among survivors* — but I think most signs are that it isn’t and that other countries will start taking after Sweden in the weeks to come.

    * A counterargument to this is that people in countries that “flatten the curve” will face those exact same risks — only later — so why ravage your economy over them? Treatments might improve as the lockdowns go on, sure, but if our model is right, vanishingly few infected seek medical help and so won’t be affected by any improvement in that area. Vaccines, too, might change the calculus, but I don’t see any first-world country keeping these hard lockdowns in place till 2021 and beyond.

    • Replies: @A123

    .. a lot of these back and forths we’re having come down to whom people put their trust in.
     
    There are a large number of techniques used by data analysis & presentation professionals. And, the necessary context is often stripped when the graphic is moved to other mediums.

    From: https://xkcd.com/2294/

    https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/coronavirus_charts.png

    Anyone trusting CNN and Jim Acosta is in a huge amount of trouble.

    PEACE 😷

  55. @karl1haushofer
    How many millions of Ukrainian and Belarussians did Germany kill in the 20th century again?

    How many millions of Ukrainian and Belarussians did Germany kill in the 20th century again?

    AFAIK not as many Ukrainians, as were killed by Stalin plus Lenin in the 20th century.

    • Replies: @Adûnâi
    > "AFAIK not as many Ukrainians, as were killed by Stalin plus Lenin in the 20th century."

    WW2 Ukrainians killed: 6,850,000 (16.3%).

    WW2 Belarussians killed: 2,290,000 (25.3%).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Soviet_Union

    The population of Ukraine reached its absolute peak in 1993: 52,244,000. Since then, under capitalism, Ukraine lost 20,000,000.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

    ____

    It has been estimated that between 3.3 and 3.9 million died in Ukraine[8] and 2 million (40% of all Kazakhs) died in Kazakhstan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–33

    All in all, 27 million Ukrainians perished at the Western hands, measly 4 million in the USSR, but you must also account for two facts:

    1) the USSR prevented the utter annihilation of the Ukrainian population at the hands of the victorious Germans;

    2) the USSR policies led to the highest population Little Russia ever reached;

    3) Stalin should be credited with the ethnic cleansing of Poles from East Galicia and Volhynia: 141k Poles resettled as compared to the previous murder of 70k-100k Poles by the Ukrainians themselves.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vistula

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

    ____

    Obviously, historic memory has nothing to do with the hatred of the USSR or Greater Russia in Eastern Europe. It is all part and parcel of the rotten flesh of American Christianity filling the entire planet with the miasmas of Chaos and Ugliness. See the Arab Spring which pitted the zealots of Islamic Khilyafa with the homosexualists of the West.

    The countries of the Slavs have always been pathetic slaves of the mightier nations - the USSR itself was a Western colony by definition, not a racist Russian construct.

  56. @AP

    It is like centuries of common history means nothing to them.
     
    Or, it may mean quite a lot. And explains the westward wishes.

    However there are as many centuries of common history with the West as with Russia in those lands.

    However there are as many centuries of common history with the West as with Russia in those lands.

    You have written this many times before, and I will keep instisting that you are (willfully) conflating dead history with living history.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    You are arguing with a Ukie as if it’s someone open to reason. I have to confess: I make the same mistake myself sometimes.
    , @AP
    It is not dead history - the Ukrainian vocabulary does have more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. The centuries of union with the West occurred when the nation was being formed. Arguably, they may have been more critical.
  57. Unfortunately Americans live in a world of pseudo-truth which artificially created for them their media.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Hollywood showed us that America is the best. Coronavirus showed us that it’s true only in Hollywood flicks.
  58. @Swedish Family

    However there are as many centuries of common history with the West as with Russia in those lands.
     
    You have written this many times before, and I will keep instisting that you are (willfully) conflating dead history with living history.

    You are arguing with a Ukie as if it’s someone open to reason. I have to confess: I make the same mistake myself sometimes.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  59. @Derer
    Unfortunately Americans live in a world of pseudo-truth which artificially created for them their media.

    Hollywood showed us that America is the best. Coronavirus showed us that it’s true only in Hollywood flicks.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    If it's not the best, why don't you pick-up and leave? Nobody is keeping you locked up here.
  60. @Swedish Family

    However there are as many centuries of common history with the West as with Russia in those lands.
     
    You have written this many times before, and I will keep instisting that you are (willfully) conflating dead history with living history.

    It is not dead history – the Ukrainian vocabulary does have more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. The centuries of union with the West occurred when the nation was being formed. Arguably, they may have been more critical.

    • Replies: @Mikhail

    It is not dead history – the Ukrainian vocabulary does have more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian.
     
    https://www.quora.com/Is-Ukrainian-closer-to-Russian-or-Polish

    Not dramatically by much. Never mind that the Ukrainian alphabet is closer to Russian than Polish - something applying to the definition of a language.


    The centuries of union with the West occurred when the nation was being formed. Arguably, they may have been more critical.
     
    More like an occupation on the part of the Poles and Habsburgites.
    , @Swedish Family

    It is not dead history – the Ukrainian vocabulary does have more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. The centuries of union with the West occurred when the nation was being formed. Arguably, they may have been more critical.
     
    It's dead in the sense that no one alive (or their parents, or grandparents, or great-grandparents ...) has any meaningful link to it. I think you'll agree that the period of 1898 to 2020 is vastly more important to modern Americans than the period of 1776 to 1898.

    By the way, language -- and vocabulary especially -- means nothing, and can basically be written off altogether. The same goes for food and other shallow signifiers of "nationhood."

  61. @Swedish Family

    It’s based on highly questionable assumptions.

    By the way it’s even unclear if the Swedish strategy is that different from the response elsewhere. Most office workers work from home, for example.
     
    It's possible, but remember that these modellers have access to far more detailed data than outsiders.

    More broadly, I think a lot of these back and forths we're having come down to whom people put their trust in. I was in the doomsday camp back in January-February (in part from reading this blog, heh) but warmed to the Swedish model as more data came in. It might still be horribly off -- especially if we consider hard-to-model second-order effects like permanent microdamages among survivors* -- but I think most signs are that it isn't and that other countries will start taking after Sweden in the weeks to come.

    * A counterargument to this is that people in countries that "flatten the curve" will face those exact same risks -- only later -- so why ravage your economy over them? Treatments might improve as the lockdowns go on, sure, but if our model is right, vanishingly few infected seek medical help and so won't be affected by any improvement in that area. Vaccines, too, might change the calculus, but I don't see any first-world country keeping these hard lockdowns in place till 2021 and beyond.

    .. a lot of these back and forths we’re having come down to whom people put their trust in.

    There are a large number of techniques used by data analysis & presentation professionals. And, the necessary context is often stripped when the graphic is moved to other mediums.

    From: https://xkcd.com/2294/

    Anyone trusting CNN and Jim Acosta is in a huge amount of trouble.

    PEACE 😷

    • LOL: Swedish Family
  62. @AnonFromTN
    Hollywood showed us that America is the best. Coronavirus showed us that it’s true only in Hollywood flicks.

    If it’s not the best, why don’t you pick-up and leave? Nobody is keeping you locked up here.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    You mean that only ignorant, blind, and dumb have a right to live in “the shining city on the hill”? You must have a pretty low opinion of it.
  63. @AP
    It is not dead history - the Ukrainian vocabulary does have more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. The centuries of union with the West occurred when the nation was being formed. Arguably, they may have been more critical.

    It is not dead history – the Ukrainian vocabulary does have more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian.

    https://www.quora.com/Is-Ukrainian-closer-to-Russian-or-Polish

    Not dramatically by much. Never mind that the Ukrainian alphabet is closer to Russian than Polish – something applying to the definition of a language.

    The centuries of union with the West occurred when the nation was being formed. Arguably, they may have been more critical.

    More like an occupation on the part of the Poles and Habsburgites.

  64. The Daily Mail released photos of all the NHS staff that have died of Coronavirus today, and about 60% of them are non-white. This makes me wonder if the percentage of non-whites in Britain is not very much higher than we are lead to believe by official stats and the media.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Last time (about 18 months ago) when I was in Heathrow, I saw exactly one white employee: a waiter.
  65. @AnonFromTN

    appoints 3 health ministers in a month, just at the time when some stability in the health department is needed.
     
    Depends on your starting point. They had a pretty dumb American nurse as a health minister for some years. They fired her – that’s progress.

    LOL- Suprun was yet another abysmal OTT freak.

    At least Yushchenko’s wife, though she was from the typical State Department, North American Banderetards background … always conducted herself in the specific style of the educated, high-culture loving Soviet woman once she got into Ukraine. Smart approach by an otherwise highly flawed couple

  66. @Mr. Hack
    If it's not the best, why don't you pick-up and leave? Nobody is keeping you locked up here.

    You mean that only ignorant, blind, and dumb have a right to live in “the shining city on the hill”? You must have a pretty low opinion of it.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    No, what I meant is that if you think so low of the US, why don't you pack and leave? It's not really that difficult of a proposition to understand.
  67. @Europe Europa
    The Daily Mail released photos of all the NHS staff that have died of Coronavirus today, and about 60% of them are non-white. This makes me wonder if the percentage of non-whites in Britain is not very much higher than we are lead to believe by official stats and the media.

    Last time (about 18 months ago) when I was in Heathrow, I saw exactly one white employee: a waiter.

  68. @AP

    How many millions of Ukrainian and Belarussians did Germany kill in the 20th century again?
     
    AFAIK not as many Ukrainians, as were killed by Stalin plus Lenin in the 20th century.

    > “AFAIK not as many Ukrainians, as were killed by Stalin plus Lenin in the 20th century.”

    WW2 Ukrainians killed: 6,850,000 (16.3%).

    WW2 Belarussians killed: 2,290,000 (25.3%).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Soviet_Union

    The population of Ukraine reached its absolute peak in 1993: 52,244,000. Since then, under capitalism, Ukraine lost 20,000,000.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

    ____

    It has been estimated that between 3.3 and 3.9 million died in Ukraine[8] and 2 million (40% of all Kazakhs) died in Kazakhstan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–33

    All in all, 27 million Ukrainians perished at the Western hands, measly 4 million in the USSR, but you must also account for two facts:

    1) the USSR prevented the utter annihilation of the Ukrainian population at the hands of the victorious Germans;

    2) the USSR policies led to the highest population Little Russia ever reached;

    3) Stalin should be credited with the ethnic cleansing of Poles from East Galicia and Volhynia: 141k Poles resettled as compared to the previous murder of 70k-100k Poles by the Ukrainians themselves.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vistula

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

    ____

    Obviously, historic memory has nothing to do with the hatred of the USSR or Greater Russia in Eastern Europe. It is all part and parcel of the rotten flesh of American Christianity filling the entire planet with the miasmas of Chaos and Ugliness. See the Arab Spring which pitted the zealots of Islamic Khilyafa with the homosexualists of the West.

    The countries of the Slavs have always been pathetic slaves of the mightier nations – the USSR itself was a Western colony by definition, not a racist Russian construct.

    • Replies: @AP

    > “AFAIK not as many Ukrainians, as were killed by Stalin plus Lenin in the 20th century.”

    WW2 Ukrainians killed: 6,850,000 (16.3%).
     

    This is total deaths, it also includes those killed by Communists during the war.

    Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder).

    Total civilian deaths (by killing, famine, and disease) of Ukrainians during World War II was 5.3 million. This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans.

    Stalin starved to death about 3 to 3.5 million Ukrainians in 1932-1933. Another few 100,000s Ukrainians died by execution, dekulakization, deportation during Stalin's rule. So about 3.5 to 4 million total deaths from Stalin.

    Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923.

    So more Ukrainians were probably killed by Lenin+ Stalin than by Hitler.


    All in all, 27 million Ukrainians perished at the Western hands
     
    Try again.

    The USSR prevented the utter annihilation of the Ukrainian population at the hands of the victorious Germans
     
    With no USSR there would have been no Hitler. USSR made Hitler possible. And epic Soviet incompetence during the war provided Hitler with the opportunity to kill millions of Ukrainians. After the Soviets themselves had killed even more Ukrainians.

    the USSR policies led to the highest population Little Russia ever reached
     
    No this occurred in spite of Soviet policies that cost millions of lives. As in Russia. Millions of people who had no children or grandchildren.

    Stalin should be credited with the ethnic cleansing of Poles from East Galicia and Volhynia: 141k Poles resettled as compared to the previous murder of 70k-100k Poles by the Ukrainians themselves.
     
    Stalin also killed about 110,000 ethnic Poles in Ukraine, outdoing Bandera's men:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD

    That number does not include the ones who died while being deported.

  69. AP says:
    @Adûnâi
    > "AFAIK not as many Ukrainians, as were killed by Stalin plus Lenin in the 20th century."

    WW2 Ukrainians killed: 6,850,000 (16.3%).

    WW2 Belarussians killed: 2,290,000 (25.3%).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Soviet_Union

    The population of Ukraine reached its absolute peak in 1993: 52,244,000. Since then, under capitalism, Ukraine lost 20,000,000.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

    ____

    It has been estimated that between 3.3 and 3.9 million died in Ukraine[8] and 2 million (40% of all Kazakhs) died in Kazakhstan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–33

    All in all, 27 million Ukrainians perished at the Western hands, measly 4 million in the USSR, but you must also account for two facts:

    1) the USSR prevented the utter annihilation of the Ukrainian population at the hands of the victorious Germans;

    2) the USSR policies led to the highest population Little Russia ever reached;

    3) Stalin should be credited with the ethnic cleansing of Poles from East Galicia and Volhynia: 141k Poles resettled as compared to the previous murder of 70k-100k Poles by the Ukrainians themselves.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vistula

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

    ____

    Obviously, historic memory has nothing to do with the hatred of the USSR or Greater Russia in Eastern Europe. It is all part and parcel of the rotten flesh of American Christianity filling the entire planet with the miasmas of Chaos and Ugliness. See the Arab Spring which pitted the zealots of Islamic Khilyafa with the homosexualists of the West.

    The countries of the Slavs have always been pathetic slaves of the mightier nations - the USSR itself was a Western colony by definition, not a racist Russian construct.

    > “AFAIK not as many Ukrainians, as were killed by Stalin plus Lenin in the 20th century.”

    WW2 Ukrainians killed: 6,850,000 (16.3%).

    This is total deaths, it also includes those killed by Communists during the war.

    Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder).

    Total civilian deaths (by killing, famine, and disease) of Ukrainians during World War II was 5.3 million. This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans.

    Stalin starved to death about 3 to 3.5 million Ukrainians in 1932-1933. Another few 100,000s Ukrainians died by execution, dekulakization, deportation during Stalin’s rule. So about 3.5 to 4 million total deaths from Stalin.

    Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923.

    So more Ukrainians were probably killed by Lenin+ Stalin than by Hitler.

    All in all, 27 million Ukrainians perished at the Western hands

    Try again.

    The USSR prevented the utter annihilation of the Ukrainian population at the hands of the victorious Germans

    With no USSR there would have been no Hitler. USSR made Hitler possible. And epic Soviet incompetence during the war provided Hitler with the opportunity to kill millions of Ukrainians. After the Soviets themselves had killed even more Ukrainians.

    the USSR policies led to the highest population Little Russia ever reached

    No this occurred in spite of Soviet policies that cost millions of lives. As in Russia. Millions of people who had no children or grandchildren.

    Stalin should be credited with the ethnic cleansing of Poles from East Galicia and Volhynia: 141k Poles resettled as compared to the previous murder of 70k-100k Poles by the Ukrainians themselves.

    Stalin also killed about 110,000 ethnic Poles in Ukraine, outdoing Bandera’s men:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD

    That number does not include the ones who died while being deported.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    This is total deaths, it also includes those killed by Communists during the war.

    Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder).

    Total civilian deaths (by killing, famine, and disease) of Ukrainians during World War II was 5.3 million. This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans.

    Stalin starved to death about 3 to 3.5 million Ukrainians in 1932-1933. Another few 100,000s Ukrainians died by execution, dekulakization, deportation during Stalin’s rule. So about 3.5 to 4 million total deaths from Stalin.

    Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923.

    So more Ukrainians were probably killed by Lenin+ Stalin than by Hitler.
     

    The simple counter to all these figures is if you do or do not believe that Hitler planned to murder 1/3 of all Ukrainians, send another 1/3 east of the Urals, and keep the remainining 1/3 as slaves under the planned German settlers. If you do -- as I hope, and as the historic record shows -- would that not make the Nazi-friendly line of the Banderaists an epic self-own? And the Red Army the savior of millions of Ukrainian lives?
    , @Adûnâi
    > "Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder)."

    Completely disingenuous. Obviously, the Ukrainians were conscripted to defend their land from invaders.

    > "This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans."

    Anyone killed in WW2 is on Germany's conscience. Because Germany started the war.

    > "Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923."

    Ah, Lenin. The man who defended the Country of the Soviets from foreign interventions. Civil wars are no different from other conflicts which are waged by multiple parties. The casualties of the White Terror are estimated at 100k-300k.

    > "With no USSR there would have been no Hitler."

    And with no Wilhelmine Germany, there would have been no USSR.

    > "No this occurred in spite of Soviet policies that cost millions of lives. As in Russia. Millions of people who had no children or grandchildren."

    See, you are denying reality. The reality is that the USSR gave East Slavs the most optimal conditions for procreation they had ever experienced. The West was worse. The westernized East is now worse.

    Obviously, I will not deny that the USSR rotted away and killed itself. That is reality, too.

    But the direction for a better society should be sought not in the realm of even more degeneracy, i.e., the West, but in the extremes of White Sharia and White Juche. We need more GULAGs for traitors and spies, not fewer. Soviet Russia fell because of internal elements which stopped being carted away to Siberia after Stalin had passed away.
  70. @AnonFromTN
    You mean that only ignorant, blind, and dumb have a right to live in “the shining city on the hill”? You must have a pretty low opinion of it.

    No, what I meant is that if you think so low of the US, why don’t you pack and leave? It’s not really that difficult of a proposition to understand.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Available info
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=coronavirus+staistics+us
    US: 71,280 recovered with 41,376 deaths (~1.72 recovered per one dead)
    World: 639,239 recovered with 167,369 deaths (~3.82 recovered per one dead)
    So, the US results are 2.22 times worse than world average
    Some countries individually
    Russia: 3,446 recovered with 405 deaths (~8.5 recovered per one dead)
    South Korea: 8,114 recovered with 236 deaths (~34.38 recovered per one dead)
    Singapore: 801 recovered with 11 deaths (~72.81 recovered per one dead)
    Simple question that even a retard would be able to answer: in what countries does the healthcare cope better and in what it copes worse?
  71. @AP

    What a braindead take, why would they try to exterminate their supporters?
     
    If you weren't autistic you would read that comment as facetious. I'm not surprised Mikhail failed to understand it, but you have surprised me.

    That having been said, how does the Russian State treat the Russian people of Donbas?

    Happy Easter! Hope you are home.

    you can’t just back pedal any statements as “lol I was being retarded ironically.” After applying Occam’s Razor and considering Poe’s Law this seems like a big fat cope for having a poor take.

    • Replies: @AP

    you can’t just back pedal any statements as “lol I was being retarded ironically.”
     
    For a normal person (I think the term is "neurotypical") the smiley face at least should have been a dead giveaway. So no backpedaling.

    However while the take is extreme it is not "retarded." The Russian state does use and treat its people outside Russia badly, for its own purposes (as I mentioned before, see: Donbas).
  72. @Europe Europa
    Americans are highly accustomed to seeing themselves as the country all the other countries look to for aid and support, as a country with almost limitless money, capacity and technological and industrial capability so the US reduced to being a country that looks for charity from other countries must amount to an existential crisis for them.

    It seems to me that the US doesn't have a lot that unifies it as one country beyond the illusion that they are the sole "superpower".

    Most Americans do not spend much time thinking about the rest of the world.

  73. @Insurance
    I always wonder why Russia prop up Belarus. They never be part of Russia again. Regular people want to go Polish way. Russia should cut loses. Once Lukashenko is gone, Belarus would have pro west goverment in months.

    Regular people want to go Polish way.

    Two points:
    a) There is no ‘Polish way’; by ‘Polish way’ you really mean ‘German way’.
    b) There won’t be a ‘German way’ in a couple decades. Germans can’t into politics and statesmanship, and never could. The EU is stillborn.

  74. @karl1haushofer
    Why are the Belarussian and Ukrainian people want more to be part of the Western world than be with Russia? It is like centuries of common history means nothing to them.

    “It is like centuries of common history means nothing to them.”
    I doubt that centuries old history is the reason that Ukrainians now want to integrate with Atlanticist institutions. Besides the Atlanticist world as we know it only got it’s current form post world war 2. Recent history is probably why Ukrainians look west. What they see is that western countries are more prosporous than their own. They also see that countries that chose to join Atlanticist institutions, and was accepted by the old boys like Poland have done much better than Ukraine. Geopolitical turns don’t need to have ancient roots.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    Recent history is probably why Ukrainians look west. What they see is that western countries are more prosporous than their own. They also see that countries that chose to join Atlanticist institutions, and was accepted by the old boys like Poland have done much better than Ukraine. Geopolitical turns don’t need to have ancient roots.
     
    There you have it. These things are not hard to predict once you understand the average man.
  75. @AP
    I have mentioned this before, but the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine is behaving particularly stupidly and the authorities are taking advantage by presenting the Russian Church as an arm of the Russian state and describing its stupid acts as a sort of anti-Ukrainian biological warfare by the Russian state (the Russian State uses its Church within Ukraine to infect Ukrainians) and the Russian Church as the main culprit of transmission withing the country.

    The Ukrainian media is showing stories about Russian Orthodox priests urging their followers to ignore the news and come to church for Easter. In contrast, the head of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine tells people to stay home and that this crisis is a chance to demonstrate how God is everywhere.

    The Monastery of the Caves has been so hard hit with the virus that it has been surrounded by the police and cordoned off.

    In this way, the Ukrainian state politicizes the crisis, combining good precautionary behaviors with nationalism and anti-Russianism. Thwart Russia by wearing masks and avoiding crowds, report those who don't do these things because they are betraying the country and serving Russia. And we know whom to blame if the virus gets out of hand.

    The Ukrainian nationalist view:

    https://atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/russian-church-in-ukraine-fuels-coronavirus-outbreak/

    Russian Church in Ukraine fuels coronavirus outbreak

    UkraineAlert by Victor Tregubov



    The coronavirus crisis has proven a revealing test of how Ukraine’s rival Orthodox churches relate to the Ukrainian state and Ukrainian society as a whole. Despite initial misgivings, the Orthodox Church of Ukraine has reluctantly adopted government quarantine guidelines and agreed to conduct services with only clergy and choir present. Parishioners have been asked to stay at home, with services broadcast online and on TV. Church officials have even partnered with the country’s biggest online retailer to sell traditional Easter bread consecrated at Kyiv’s St. Michael’s Golden-Domed Monastery, proving that even in the ultra-conservative world of Orthodoxy, it is possible to find modern solutions to modern problems.

    This flexibility has been largely absent from the Moscow Patriarchate’s response to the coronavirus crisis, which was initially marked by blanket refusals to follow the Ukrainian government’s anti-pandemic safety measures. Indeed, the head of the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra Monastery, which serves as the headquarters of the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine, was particularly outspoken in his dismissals. Metropolitan Pavel actively encouraged believers to attend church services and claimed the virus could be defeated by fasting, prayers and hugs. However, he was forced to change his tune once the monastery itself became an infection hot spot. On April 13, the Kyiv municipal authorities moved to close the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra Monastery following news of over one hundred coronavirus cases and at least two fatalities.

    In the wake of the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra Monastery closure, Moscow Patriarchate leader Metropolitan Onufriy issued a statement that hinted at compromise. He called on the Moscow Patriarchate to act in accordance with state quarantine regulations and vowed to no longer permit parishioners inside church buildings. However, unlike the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, he did not call on the faithful to stay at home. Instead, Metropolitan Onufriy promised believers that Easter services would proceed and invited them to come and pray outside churches, a move that could result in hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians venturing into villages, towns and cities across the country on Sunday with potentially deadly consequences.

    The battle lines are thus drawn as Easter Sunday approaches. On this holiest of holidays in the Orthodox calendar, followers of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine will mostly be celebrating at home, perhaps while enjoying traditional holiday treats ordered online. Meanwhile, many adherents of the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine will disregard bans on large public gatherings and flock to their churches to mark the festivities. In the fight against the pandemic, they will chose piety over patriotism. It is a choice that says much about the relative values of the two main Orthodox churches currently struggling for the soul of Ukraine.

    A tribal african government incapable of having its citizens do anything unless it rallies everyone against a common threat.
    Outside of emergency cases, there’s no rule of law or order to speak of.

    Everybody would be dying of ebola, but the shamans found a way to blame it on the white man, and now it’s a personal struggle that every warlord feels compelled to fight in.

    That’s the impression I’m getting here.

    • Replies: @AP

    Outside of emergency cases, there’s no rule of law or order to speak of.
     
    Must be why Ukraine's homicide rate is lower than Russia's, as of 2017:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

    Or are you implying that Ukrainians are naturally superior and don't need any government to avoid killing each other at a lower rate than Russians do?

    Everybody would be dying of ebola, but the shamans found a way to blame it on the white man, and now it’s a personal struggle that every warlord feels compelled to fight in.

    That’s the impression I’m getting here.
     
    A video of your idea of "Africa", the provincial oblast capital Vynnytsia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=AFB6fbDsVK0&feature=emb_logo
  76. @AnonFromTN
    As far as I know, the virus in Russia is mostly of European, not Chinese, origin. While Vietnam and South Korea do not get many tourists relative to their population, Singapore gets lots. Many Southern Chinese used to shop there (the whole country is a huge shopping mall, even to get to the street from their metro you have to pass through a shopping mall in many places). There are lots of flights through Singapore. When I wanted to get from Germany to Malaysia, flying through Singapore was the only option. As far as I know, everyone flying from Europe to Australia also goes through Singapore. Also, there is no problem stopping over there for as long as you want: Singapore does not require visas from anyone; unlike Turkey they don’t even charge you for their pretend visa, just stamp your passport and let you in. Singapore is also one of very few countries where money changers do not charge you a fee, whether you change into their money or out of it.

    So, I would imagine they had a lot of potential spreaders, but managed to keep things in check.

    All fair points….. you can add UAE for similar reasons. I think you’re correct about the flights via there to get to Australia- though I thought it was also Japan and Malaysia sometimes used.

    The last flights, other than from EEA countries that Russian authorities banned, were from UAE( my brother was lucky in that he happened to be booked on what turned out to be the very last flight back, after using UAE as a stop-over route) , UK and USA – I was surprised the authorities weren’t criticised for this because it sounds oligarch-ish centered

  77. @Belarusian Dude
    you can't just back pedal any statements as "lol I was being retarded ironically." After applying Occam's Razor and considering Poe's Law this seems like a big fat cope for having a poor take.

    you can’t just back pedal any statements as “lol I was being retarded ironically.”

    For a normal person (I think the term is “neurotypical”) the smiley face at least should have been a dead giveaway. So no backpedaling.

    However while the take is extreme it is not “retarded.” The Russian state does use and treat its people outside Russia badly, for its own purposes (as I mentioned before, see: Donbas).

    • Replies: @Belarusian Dude
    A backpedal from the backpedal? Interesting. First distancing yourself from a very baseless statement saying it was ironic but then claiming in spite of it being said ironically it does have merit. So which is ot, the take is ironic or it is serious?
    , @Mikhail

    However while the take is extreme it is not “retarded.” The Russian state does use and treat its people outside Russia badly, for its own purposes (as I mentioned before, see: Donbas).
     
    Like Kiev regime controlled Ukraine has noticeably treating them any better, which explains why the people there aren't so gung ho about that political grouping.

    Never mind that no nation (Russia included) recognizes Donbass as being a part of Russia. Data indicates that there're more ethnic Ukrainians there than Russians. The Russian government presence in Donbass is quite limited. Countries the world over typically consider the concerns of citizens within their actual boundaries first before others elsewhere.
  78. @Autists Anonymous Rehab Camp Fugitive
    A tribal african government incapable of having its citizens do anything unless it rallies everyone against a common threat.
    Outside of emergency cases, there's no rule of law or order to speak of.

    Everybody would be dying of ebola, but the shamans found a way to blame it on the white man, and now it's a personal struggle that every warlord feels compelled to fight in.

    That's the impression I'm getting here.

    Outside of emergency cases, there’s no rule of law or order to speak of.

    Must be why Ukraine’s homicide rate is lower than Russia’s, as of 2017:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

    Or are you implying that Ukrainians are naturally superior and don’t need any government to avoid killing each other at a lower rate than Russians do?

    Everybody would be dying of ebola, but the shamans found a way to blame it on the white man, and now it’s a personal struggle that every warlord feels compelled to fight in.

    That’s the impression I’m getting here.

    A video of your idea of “Africa”, the provincial oblast capital Vynnytsia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=AFB6fbDsVK0&feature=emb_logo

    • Replies: @Autists Anonymous Rehab Camp Fugitive
    Its population is lower than Russia's as well.
    Don't care about the propaganda much, Cameroon's space program is powerful too, and they're a step from economically dwarfing the US and China combined. At least if you ask a Cameroonian off the street, if you can find a street that is.

    And the hard proof that ukraine isn't africa is two ethots showing off tourist spots. North korea has a bunch of those, even Cameroon probably has a few alleys they cleaned and put a few exotic food stalls to show off to the unaware gringo.
    The part where the starving asian helot and the retarded african tribesman surpass the advanced european not!russian is that they understand a few clean streets and a statue in a big city don't mean everybody is living in luxury.
    , @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    Must be why Ukraine's homicide rate is lower than Russia's as of 2017.
     
    That is officially the dumbest comment written in the history if the Internet. LOL.

    9/11 attacks, Oklahoma bombings, jealous lover murders, assassinations, drunk fights or arguments that lead to murder..all terrible acts of homicide... but have NO connection to "rule of law" you absurd cretin.

    Drunk Kiev cops playing a stupid shooting game, killing an nearby 5 year old boy (shot dead in head) them and their superiors then claiming the boy died falling on the pavement... and subsequently covering up the murder...... Now that IS no rule of law. LOL

    Rule of law refers to function of the courts, law enforcement agencies, politicians and businesses working fluidly and consistently in one coherent system -

    It's why lack of "rule of law" isn't an argument used against America.... even though there has always been a much higher murder rate in US than in Europe and even Eastern Europe admitted into EU - close to zero.
    Premeditated violent acts of evil or fatal flashes of anger, obviously, have nothing to do with "rule of law".
    Apart from Russia being lower than Ukraine anyway - how dumb is it to not consider Russia's multi-ethnic regions , areas of extreme cold. and centre for all ex USSR ethnic mafias making it stupid to make that type of comparison!

    As for the rest of your idiotic arguments- that wikipedia is full of BS. Russia is at rate between 5-6. A miraculous achievement. Ukrop number is a fake that no Ukrainian actually believes- not least because rate involves the denominator being Ukraines official population... and the fake state is FULL of mass death of its population, one of the worst in the world - so they can attach any cause of death in such a rotten system.
    The funniest thing is that because you are a fraud /fantasist.... you are insanely incompetent too.... Absolutely nobody in Banderastan, nobody, claims other than that there is an abject lack of rule of law in the country. This is because personal experience of people living and visiting dominates ahead of fantasies from 10000km away and sick wikipedia self-Edits that you link to. Nobody in ukraine claims they have anything approaching superior "rule of law" to Russia - they just won't admit that RF is.


    Bribery to the traffic cops is a million times less in RF, same with education, health, business and courts.

    Here is 'africa', provincial City of Vinnytsia
     
    HAHAHA- has any imbecile EVER been convinced by your clueless, dumb, fake video links? Is there the snow covered streets misrepresented as "clean" LOL. Vinnytsia is a dump. I am refusing to watch a time-wasting BS video that can tell with certainly

    1.Shows the opposite of what you claim
    2. Sun out, young women dressed with mentality of African tribe = "not Africa" in your laughable BS logic
    3.entirely meant to timewaste
    4.amusingly the only thing likely to indicate sophistication.... would be any still standing Soviet buildings!
    5. With that inadequate effort you have had to spend 10 hours (in English lol) going through even worse filth confirming the opposite of your BS
    Of course Banderastan is Africa because:

    1. Abysmal level of income in the population
    2. Abysmal roads
    3 consumption
    4. Lack of any rule of law
    5.mass corruption
    6. Large numbers of certain diseases
    7.wasting of Western money
    8. Abysmal levels of governance
    9.Infrastructure
    10. Emmigration
    11. Even the worst African States have higher levels of satisfaction
    , @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    Bi

    Must be why Ukraine's homicide rate is lower than Russia's as of 2017.
     
    That is officially the dumbest comment written in the history if the Internet. LOL.

    9/11 attacks, Oklahoma bombings, jealous lover murders, assassinations, drunk fights or arguments that lead to murder..all terrible acts of homicide... but have NO connection to "rule of law" you absurd cretin.

    Drunk Kiev cops playing a stupid shooting game, killing an nearby 5 year old boy (shot dead in head) them and their superiors then claiming the boy died falling on the pavement... and subsequently covering up the murder...... Now that IS no rule of law. LOL

    Rule of law refers to function of the courts, law enforcement agencies, politicians and businesses working fluidly and consistently in one coherent system -

    It's why lack of "rule of law" isn't an argument used against America.... even though there has always been a much higher murder rate in US than in Europe and even Eastern Europe admitted into EU - close to zero.
    Premeditated violent acts of evil or fatal flashes of anger, obviously, have nothing to do with "rule of law".
    Apart from Russia being lower than Ukraine anyway - how dumb is it to not consider Russia's multi-ethnic regions , areas of extreme cold. and centre for all ex USSR ethnic mafias making it stupid to make that type of comparison!

    As for the rest of your dumb arguments- that wikipedia is full of BS. Russia is at rate between 5-6. A miraculous achievement. Ukrop number is a fake that no Ukrainian actually believes- not least because rate involves the denominator being Ukraines official population... and the fake state is FULL of mass death of its population, one of the worst in the world - so they can attach any cause of death in such a rotten system.
    The funniest thing is that because you are a fraud /fantasist.... you are insanely incompetent too.... Absolutely nobody in Banderastan, nobody, claims other than that there is an abject lack of rule of law in the country. This is because personal experience of people living and visiting dominates ahead of fantasies from 10000km away and sick wikipedia self-Edits that you link to. Nobody in ukraine claims they have anything approaching superior "rule of law" to Russia - they just won't admit that RF is.


    Bribery to the traffic cops is a million times less in RF, same with education, health, business and courts.


    Here is 'africa', provincial City of Vinnytsia
     
    HAHAHA- has any imbecile EVER been convinced by your clueless, dumb, fake video links? Is there the snow covered streets misrepresented as "clean" LOL. Vinnytsia is a dump. I am refusing to watch a time-wasting BS video that can tell with certainly

    1.Shows the opposite of what you claim
    2. Sun out, young women dressed with mentality of African tribe = "not Africa" in your laughable BS logic
    3.entirely meant to timewaste
    4.amusingly the only thing likely to indicate sophistication.... would be any still standing Soviet buildings!
    5. With that inadequate effort you have had to spend 10 hours (in English lol) going through even worse filth confirming the opposite of your BS

    Of course Banderastan is Africa because:

    1. Abysmal level of income in the population
    2. Abysmal roads
    3 consumption
    4. Lack of any rule of law
    5.mass corruption
    6. Large numbers of certain diseases
    7.wasting of Western money
    8. Abysmal levels of governance
    9.Infrastructure
    10. Emmigration
    11. Even the worst African States have higher levels of satisfaction

    You are many obscene things, liar on knowing language, visits, "job" as medic..... Until your nonsense about "rule of law" something Americans frequently talk about--I had never considered before that you were not American.....

  79. @AP

    you can’t just back pedal any statements as “lol I was being retarded ironically.”
     
    For a normal person (I think the term is "neurotypical") the smiley face at least should have been a dead giveaway. So no backpedaling.

    However while the take is extreme it is not "retarded." The Russian state does use and treat its people outside Russia badly, for its own purposes (as I mentioned before, see: Donbas).

    A backpedal from the backpedal? Interesting. First distancing yourself from a very baseless statement saying it was ironic but then claiming in spite of it being said ironically it does have merit. So which is ot, the take is ironic or it is serious?

    • Replies: @AP
    Lol, autist just can’t figure out basic aspects of communication.

    About the initial statement, I wrote:

    “For a normal person (I think the term is “neurotypical”) the smiley face at least should have been a dead giveaway. So no backpedaling.”

    I was grinning when I wrote that, as I made obvious in the original post. It was written facetiously because it was a humorous exaggeration, not because it was irony. It was an exaggeration because the Russian government does actually often treat its people abroad like crap.

    So the idea spread by Ukrainian nationalists (seriously I think by them - but rather funnily for me which would have been clear to you if you weren’t autistic) that Russia is deliberately using its Church to infect church members and thereby spread disease to the general Ukrainian society in pursuit of anti-Ukrainian genocide works, either as conspiracy or as dark comedy, because it reflects something real.

    Hopefully you were capable of understanding it.

  80. AP says:
    @Belarusian Dude
    A backpedal from the backpedal? Interesting. First distancing yourself from a very baseless statement saying it was ironic but then claiming in spite of it being said ironically it does have merit. So which is ot, the take is ironic or it is serious?

    Lol, autist just can’t figure out basic aspects of communication.

    About the initial statement, I wrote:

    “For a normal person (I think the term is “neurotypical”) the smiley face at least should have been a dead giveaway. So no backpedaling.”

    I was grinning when I wrote that, as I made obvious in the original post. It was written facetiously because it was a humorous exaggeration, not because it was irony. It was an exaggeration because the Russian government does actually often treat its people abroad like crap.

    So the idea spread by Ukrainian nationalists (seriously I think by them – but rather funnily for me which would have been clear to you if you weren’t autistic) that Russia is deliberately using its Church to infect church members and thereby spread disease to the general Ukrainian society in pursuit of anti-Ukrainian genocide works, either as conspiracy or as dark comedy, because it reflects something real.

    Hopefully you were capable of understanding it.

  81. @Mr. Hack
    No, what I meant is that if you think so low of the US, why don't you pack and leave? It's not really that difficult of a proposition to understand.

    Available info
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=coronavirus+staistics+us
    US: 71,280 recovered with 41,376 deaths (~1.72 recovered per one dead)
    World: 639,239 recovered with 167,369 deaths (~3.82 recovered per one dead)
    So, the US results are 2.22 times worse than world average
    Some countries individually
    Russia: 3,446 recovered with 405 deaths (~8.5 recovered per one dead)
    South Korea: 8,114 recovered with 236 deaths (~34.38 recovered per one dead)
    Singapore: 801 recovered with 11 deaths (~72.81 recovered per one dead)
    Simple question that even a retard would be able to answer: in what countries does the healthcare cope better and in what it copes worse?

    • Replies: @AP
    Without taking into account the extent of testing in each country this is a very dumb claim to make.
    , @A123

    Simple question that even a retard would be able to answer: in what countries does the healthcare cope better and in what it copes worse?
     
    Treating the U.S. as a single group is foolish for any type of serious analysis.

    Simple question, "What cities coped better?" is much more meaningful.

    Blue cities in blue states did the worst. NYC's mass transit system did an excellent job spreading WUHAN-19 among the population. And, the decrepit NYC health system has difficulties coping.

    I guess those very high NYC taxes did not buy much when spent by DNC governors.

    PEACE 😷

    , @inertial
    Number of "recovered" is a joke statistic. And it appears that the number of US dead is quickly on the way to becoming a joke as well, after they changed the way they code for COVID deaths.
    , @Mr. Hack

    So, the US results are 2.22 times worse than world average
     
    So what are you still doing here? Run don't hide and get the hell out while you still can!
  82. @AnonFromTN
    Available info
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=coronavirus+staistics+us
    US: 71,280 recovered with 41,376 deaths (~1.72 recovered per one dead)
    World: 639,239 recovered with 167,369 deaths (~3.82 recovered per one dead)
    So, the US results are 2.22 times worse than world average
    Some countries individually
    Russia: 3,446 recovered with 405 deaths (~8.5 recovered per one dead)
    South Korea: 8,114 recovered with 236 deaths (~34.38 recovered per one dead)
    Singapore: 801 recovered with 11 deaths (~72.81 recovered per one dead)
    Simple question that even a retard would be able to answer: in what countries does the healthcare cope better and in what it copes worse?

    Without taking into account the extent of testing in each country this is a very dumb claim to make.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Without taking into account the extent of testing in each country this is a very dumb claim to make.
     
    My point exactly. FYI, in terms of coverage of the population with testing, the US is way behind SK and Singapore, and even behind Russia. LOL.
    , @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    LOL - AnonFromTN CLEARLY selected only countries noted for doing a higher rate of tests than the US you cret*n!That was his whole point - With the world average only used as base level. That makes his points about recoveries:deaths even more valid against your time-wasting drivel.

    without taking into account the extent of testing in each country, this is a very dumb claim to make
     
    Considering that "the world" consists of 80% of coronavirus infections in first World or NATO countries, with the large majority of them(non US) doing a higher rate of testing than the US anyway...... the health care system of the "indespensible nation" has been shown to be inadequate and a fraud.

    Going with your unhinged BS nonsense about negros in care homes and on any medical issue--it looks like your "medical background"claims are even more a fantasist fraud than your
    Ukrainian /Russian language and visit BS claims
  83. @AP
    Without taking into account the extent of testing in each country this is a very dumb claim to make.

    Without taking into account the extent of testing in each country this is a very dumb claim to make.

    My point exactly. FYI, in terms of coverage of the population with testing, the US is way behind SK and Singapore, and even behind Russia. LOL.

    • Replies: @AP
    You mentioned “copying better” and “coping worse” and listed the ratio of dead to recovered according to the test results. While extent of testing in itself is a component of coping better or worse, your logic of basing coping on the listed ratios, which didn’t take into account extent of testing, was dumb. Using your logic and the table you cited, Ukraine which has a better recovered to dead ratio than the USA has a better coping healthcare system.
    , @siberiancat
    US is currently exactly at the level of South Korea in testing per capita
  84. @AnonFromTN
    Available info
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=coronavirus+staistics+us
    US: 71,280 recovered with 41,376 deaths (~1.72 recovered per one dead)
    World: 639,239 recovered with 167,369 deaths (~3.82 recovered per one dead)
    So, the US results are 2.22 times worse than world average
    Some countries individually
    Russia: 3,446 recovered with 405 deaths (~8.5 recovered per one dead)
    South Korea: 8,114 recovered with 236 deaths (~34.38 recovered per one dead)
    Singapore: 801 recovered with 11 deaths (~72.81 recovered per one dead)
    Simple question that even a retard would be able to answer: in what countries does the healthcare cope better and in what it copes worse?

    Simple question that even a retard would be able to answer: in what countries does the healthcare cope better and in what it copes worse?

    Treating the U.S. as a single group is foolish for any type of serious analysis.

    Simple question, “What cities coped better?” is much more meaningful.

    Blue cities in blue states did the worst. NYC’s mass transit system did an excellent job spreading WUHAN-19 among the population. And, the decrepit NYC health system has difficulties coping.

    I guess those very high NYC taxes did not buy much when spent by DNC governors.

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN

    I guess those very high NYC taxes did not buy much when spent by DNC governors.
     
    That is also true. However, the same is true about our federal taxes spent by Rep president: MIC steals hundreds of billions, whereas infrastructure, education, and that decrepit healthcare get nothing.

    BTW, NY healthcare system is no different from the rest of the US: it is essentially a racket to part you from your money, but when real health problem, like this virus, arises, it is totally impotent. It’s exactly like standard mafia protection racket: works like a charm when there is nobody to protect from, but breaks down when a protection is really needed.

  85. @AP
    It is not dead history - the Ukrainian vocabulary does have more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. The centuries of union with the West occurred when the nation was being formed. Arguably, they may have been more critical.

    It is not dead history – the Ukrainian vocabulary does have more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. The centuries of union with the West occurred when the nation was being formed. Arguably, they may have been more critical.

    It’s dead in the sense that no one alive (or their parents, or grandparents, or great-grandparents …) has any meaningful link to it. I think you’ll agree that the period of 1898 to 2020 is vastly more important to modern Americans than the period of 1776 to 1898.

    By the way, language — and vocabulary especially — means nothing, and can basically be written off altogether. The same goes for food and other shallow signifiers of “nationhood.”

    • Agree: Rattus Norwegius
    • Replies: @AP
    If language, culture, formation etc. don’t matter as much as time spent under Moscow recently, then Latvia and Estonia should be closer to Russia than to the West and closer to Russia than much of Ukraine is, because they were ruled from Moscow even longer than half of Ukraine was.
  86. @AnonFromTN
    Available info
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=coronavirus+staistics+us
    US: 71,280 recovered with 41,376 deaths (~1.72 recovered per one dead)
    World: 639,239 recovered with 167,369 deaths (~3.82 recovered per one dead)
    So, the US results are 2.22 times worse than world average
    Some countries individually
    Russia: 3,446 recovered with 405 deaths (~8.5 recovered per one dead)
    South Korea: 8,114 recovered with 236 deaths (~34.38 recovered per one dead)
    Singapore: 801 recovered with 11 deaths (~72.81 recovered per one dead)
    Simple question that even a retard would be able to answer: in what countries does the healthcare cope better and in what it copes worse?

    Number of “recovered” is a joke statistic. And it appears that the number of US dead is quickly on the way to becoming a joke as well, after they changed the way they code for COVID deaths.

  87. @A123

    Simple question that even a retard would be able to answer: in what countries does the healthcare cope better and in what it copes worse?
     
    Treating the U.S. as a single group is foolish for any type of serious analysis.

    Simple question, "What cities coped better?" is much more meaningful.

    Blue cities in blue states did the worst. NYC's mass transit system did an excellent job spreading WUHAN-19 among the population. And, the decrepit NYC health system has difficulties coping.

    I guess those very high NYC taxes did not buy much when spent by DNC governors.

    PEACE 😷

    I guess those very high NYC taxes did not buy much when spent by DNC governors.

    That is also true. However, the same is true about our federal taxes spent by Rep president: MIC steals hundreds of billions, whereas infrastructure, education, and that decrepit healthcare get nothing.

    BTW, NY healthcare system is no different from the rest of the US: it is essentially a racket to part you from your money, but when real health problem, like this virus, arises, it is totally impotent. It’s exactly like standard mafia protection racket: works like a charm when there is nobody to protect from, but breaks down when a protection is really needed.

    • Agree: Dreadilk
    • Replies: @A123

    the same is true about our federal taxes spent by Rep president: ... infrastructure, education, and that decrepit healthcare get nothing.
     
    Are you intentionally trying to be misleading? You need to take up the low infrastructure spending with your most beloved DNC majority leader Pelosi.

    Any President can only spend what is appropriated by Congress. Trump managed to generate a small amount of funding for border security by rearranging funds. However, that is a very limited solution versus intentional efforts by DNC special interests. The Dems are undermining and redirecting infrastructure spending.

    PEACE 😷
  88. @AP

    > “AFAIK not as many Ukrainians, as were killed by Stalin plus Lenin in the 20th century.”

    WW2 Ukrainians killed: 6,850,000 (16.3%).
     

    This is total deaths, it also includes those killed by Communists during the war.

    Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder).

    Total civilian deaths (by killing, famine, and disease) of Ukrainians during World War II was 5.3 million. This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans.

    Stalin starved to death about 3 to 3.5 million Ukrainians in 1932-1933. Another few 100,000s Ukrainians died by execution, dekulakization, deportation during Stalin's rule. So about 3.5 to 4 million total deaths from Stalin.

    Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923.

    So more Ukrainians were probably killed by Lenin+ Stalin than by Hitler.


    All in all, 27 million Ukrainians perished at the Western hands
     
    Try again.

    The USSR prevented the utter annihilation of the Ukrainian population at the hands of the victorious Germans
     
    With no USSR there would have been no Hitler. USSR made Hitler possible. And epic Soviet incompetence during the war provided Hitler with the opportunity to kill millions of Ukrainians. After the Soviets themselves had killed even more Ukrainians.

    the USSR policies led to the highest population Little Russia ever reached
     
    No this occurred in spite of Soviet policies that cost millions of lives. As in Russia. Millions of people who had no children or grandchildren.

    Stalin should be credited with the ethnic cleansing of Poles from East Galicia and Volhynia: 141k Poles resettled as compared to the previous murder of 70k-100k Poles by the Ukrainians themselves.
     
    Stalin also killed about 110,000 ethnic Poles in Ukraine, outdoing Bandera's men:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD

    That number does not include the ones who died while being deported.

    This is total deaths, it also includes those killed by Communists during the war.

    Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder).

    Total civilian deaths (by killing, famine, and disease) of Ukrainians during World War II was 5.3 million. This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans.

    Stalin starved to death about 3 to 3.5 million Ukrainians in 1932-1933. Another few 100,000s Ukrainians died by execution, dekulakization, deportation during Stalin’s rule. So about 3.5 to 4 million total deaths from Stalin.

    Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923.

    So more Ukrainians were probably killed by Lenin+ Stalin than by Hitler.

    The simple counter to all these figures is if you do or do not believe that Hitler planned to murder 1/3 of all Ukrainians, send another 1/3 east of the Urals, and keep the remainining 1/3 as slaves under the planned German settlers. If you do — as I hope, and as the historic record shows — would that not make the Nazi-friendly line of the Banderaists an epic self-own? And the Red Army the savior of millions of Ukrainian lives?

    • Replies: @AP

    Hitler planned to murder 1/3 of all Ukrainians, send another 1/3 east of the Urals, and keep the remainining 1/3 as slaves under the planned German settlers. If you do — as I hope, and as the historic record shows — would that not make the Nazi-friendly line of the Banderaists an epic self-own
     
    I may be wrong, but the persons with whom I was discussing this seem to have been implying that Ukrainians experienced worse things from the West than from Moscow. The numbers of killed (among other factors) prove this claim wrong. Moreover, while the West has utterly rejected Nazism, Stalin enjoys significant popularity in Russia.

    While you are correct that the plans some Nazis had towards Ukraine, if implemented, were much worse than even what the Bolsheviks did to Ukraine, people didn’t actually live through them. In terms of actual experiences, Moscow killed about half a million more Ukrainians than did Berlin in the 20th century. And of course Ukrainians living in Austria or even Poland had it much better than those living under Moscow.

    You seem to imply that Bandera supported the Nazis unconditionally. He did not. He supported them at specific times when he viewed them as being better for him and for Ukraine. He worked with them in the beginning when they were helpful and before the extent of their murderousness towards Ukrainians was clear, and at the end when they were clearly no longer a threat but could still be useful to his cause.

    Bandera and his movement have horrible crimes to answer for (against not only Poles, but also against non-Banderist Ukrainians), but enabling the Nazi master plan against Ukrainians was not on of them.

  89. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Without taking into account the extent of testing in each country this is a very dumb claim to make.
     
    My point exactly. FYI, in terms of coverage of the population with testing, the US is way behind SK and Singapore, and even behind Russia. LOL.

    You mentioned “copying better” and “coping worse” and listed the ratio of dead to recovered according to the test results. While extent of testing in itself is a component of coping better or worse, your logic of basing coping on the listed ratios, which didn’t take into account extent of testing, was dumb. Using your logic and the table you cited, Ukraine which has a better recovered to dead ratio than the USA has a better coping healthcare system.

  90. @Rattus Norwegius
    "It is like centuries of common history means nothing to them."
    I doubt that centuries old history is the reason that Ukrainians now want to integrate with Atlanticist institutions. Besides the Atlanticist world as we know it only got it's current form post world war 2. Recent history is probably why Ukrainians look west. What they see is that western countries are more prosporous than their own. They also see that countries that chose to join Atlanticist institutions, and was accepted by the old boys like Poland have done much better than Ukraine. Geopolitical turns don't need to have ancient roots.

    Recent history is probably why Ukrainians look west. What they see is that western countries are more prosporous than their own. They also see that countries that chose to join Atlanticist institutions, and was accepted by the old boys like Poland have done much better than Ukraine. Geopolitical turns don’t need to have ancient roots.

    There you have it. These things are not hard to predict once you understand the average man.

  91. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    It is not dead history – the Ukrainian vocabulary does have more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. The centuries of union with the West occurred when the nation was being formed. Arguably, they may have been more critical.
     
    It's dead in the sense that no one alive (or their parents, or grandparents, or great-grandparents ...) has any meaningful link to it. I think you'll agree that the period of 1898 to 2020 is vastly more important to modern Americans than the period of 1776 to 1898.

    By the way, language -- and vocabulary especially -- means nothing, and can basically be written off altogether. The same goes for food and other shallow signifiers of "nationhood."

    If language, culture, formation etc. don’t matter as much as time spent under Moscow recently, then Latvia and Estonia should be closer to Russia than to the West and closer to Russia than much of Ukraine is, because they were ruled from Moscow even longer than half of Ukraine was.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    If language, culture, formation etc. don’t matter as much as time spent under Moscow recently, then Latvia and Estonia should be closer to Russia than to the West and closer to Russia than much of Ukraine is, because they were ruled from Moscow even longer than half of Ukraine was.
     
    Not quite. My assumption is that the near past (the past generation or two, say) matters vastly more than what came before it*, and so it makes sense that the Baltic states, minus perhaps their Russian minorities, after 29 years of independence, should now be more "Western" (loosely put) than Russian. That they were part of Russia in the past matters very little.

    This same dynamic will play out in Ukraine, by the way, if it keeps its "Western" course another few decades. Its people will behave more and more and like the peoples of Germany, France and America, but from recent, not distant, history.

    * You can think of it as a heavily left-skewed distribution, with most of the "cultural mass" lying to the right (i.e. nearer the present time) and the left side -- the "long tail" -- representing the "cultural mass" of the distant past. Or put in plain English: the past thirty years matter far more than the thirty years that came before them, which in turn matter far more than the thirty years that came before them, and so on.
  92. @AnonFromTN
    Available info
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=coronavirus+staistics+us
    US: 71,280 recovered with 41,376 deaths (~1.72 recovered per one dead)
    World: 639,239 recovered with 167,369 deaths (~3.82 recovered per one dead)
    So, the US results are 2.22 times worse than world average
    Some countries individually
    Russia: 3,446 recovered with 405 deaths (~8.5 recovered per one dead)
    South Korea: 8,114 recovered with 236 deaths (~34.38 recovered per one dead)
    Singapore: 801 recovered with 11 deaths (~72.81 recovered per one dead)
    Simple question that even a retard would be able to answer: in what countries does the healthcare cope better and in what it copes worse?

    So, the US results are 2.22 times worse than world average

    So what are you still doing here? Run don’t hide and get the hell out while you still can!

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    Projection, Mr Hack? After all, North American Banderetard CIA "help" to ukropia has been some of the best self-sabotage possible. Isn't it established fact that if ukrop authorities had listened to people like Anon over the last 29 years... then they would be multiple times superior to the degrading position they are now in after being manipulated by evil, demented, dumb, Galicia CIA smuggled clowns? Doesn't that ultimately make Anon the bigger patriot?

    The US has gained far more from intellectual Soviet people like AnonFromTN than viceversa
  93. @AnonFromTN

    I guess those very high NYC taxes did not buy much when spent by DNC governors.
     
    That is also true. However, the same is true about our federal taxes spent by Rep president: MIC steals hundreds of billions, whereas infrastructure, education, and that decrepit healthcare get nothing.

    BTW, NY healthcare system is no different from the rest of the US: it is essentially a racket to part you from your money, but when real health problem, like this virus, arises, it is totally impotent. It’s exactly like standard mafia protection racket: works like a charm when there is nobody to protect from, but breaks down when a protection is really needed.

    the same is true about our federal taxes spent by Rep president: … infrastructure, education, and that decrepit healthcare get nothing.

    Are you intentionally trying to be misleading? You need to take up the low infrastructure spending with your most beloved DNC majority leader Pelosi.

    Any President can only spend what is appropriated by Congress. Trump managed to generate a small amount of funding for border security by rearranging funds. However, that is a very limited solution versus intentional efforts by DNC special interests. The Dems are undermining and redirecting infrastructure spending.

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    So, the Dems are scum. No argument there. Now, please remind when Trump proposed investing in infrastructure, or education, or anything else beneficial for the country. In contrast, I vividly recall ever more bloated “defense” spending budget he proposes annually.
  94. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    This is total deaths, it also includes those killed by Communists during the war.

    Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder).

    Total civilian deaths (by killing, famine, and disease) of Ukrainians during World War II was 5.3 million. This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans.

    Stalin starved to death about 3 to 3.5 million Ukrainians in 1932-1933. Another few 100,000s Ukrainians died by execution, dekulakization, deportation during Stalin’s rule. So about 3.5 to 4 million total deaths from Stalin.

    Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923.

    So more Ukrainians were probably killed by Lenin+ Stalin than by Hitler.
     

    The simple counter to all these figures is if you do or do not believe that Hitler planned to murder 1/3 of all Ukrainians, send another 1/3 east of the Urals, and keep the remainining 1/3 as slaves under the planned German settlers. If you do -- as I hope, and as the historic record shows -- would that not make the Nazi-friendly line of the Banderaists an epic self-own? And the Red Army the savior of millions of Ukrainian lives?

    Hitler planned to murder 1/3 of all Ukrainians, send another 1/3 east of the Urals, and keep the remainining 1/3 as slaves under the planned German settlers. If you do — as I hope, and as the historic record shows — would that not make the Nazi-friendly line of the Banderaists an epic self-own

    I may be wrong, but the persons with whom I was discussing this seem to have been implying that Ukrainians experienced worse things from the West than from Moscow. The numbers of killed (among other factors) prove this claim wrong. Moreover, while the West has utterly rejected Nazism, Stalin enjoys significant popularity in Russia.

    While you are correct that the plans some Nazis had towards Ukraine, if implemented, were much worse than even what the Bolsheviks did to Ukraine, people didn’t actually live through them. In terms of actual experiences, Moscow killed about half a million more Ukrainians than did Berlin in the 20th century. And of course Ukrainians living in Austria or even Poland had it much better than those living under Moscow.

    You seem to imply that Bandera supported the Nazis unconditionally. He did not. He supported them at specific times when he viewed them as being better for him and for Ukraine. He worked with them in the beginning when they were helpful and before the extent of their murderousness towards Ukrainians was clear, and at the end when they were clearly no longer a threat but could still be useful to his cause.

    Bandera and his movement have horrible crimes to answer for (against not only Poles, but also against non-Banderist Ukrainians), but enabling the Nazi master plan against Ukrainians was not on of them.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    I may be wrong, but the persons with whom I was discussing this seem to have been implying that Ukrainians experienced worse things from the West than from Moscow. The numbers of killed (among other factors) prove this claim wrong.
     
    The claim that Bolshevism was worse for Ukrainians than Nazism is true in the sense that it lead to more dead bodies than Nazism, but it also missess the mark altogether. No serious analysis of Nazism can avoid the question of what the Nazis would have done to Ukraine if given free reign to carry out their plans, and as I wrote, the plan was crystal clear and would have resulted in the murder or deportation of tens of millions of Ukrainians. Also as I wrote, what stopped these millions of deaths from coming to pass was not the UIA -- which were at worst Nazi collaborators and at best useful idiots (they would have been killed off in an instant had the Nazis won) -- but the Red Army.

    Moreover, while the West has utterly rejected Nazism, Stalin enjoys significant popularity in Russia.
     
    This is true and unfortunate, but as our host would be quick to tell you, Stalin is even more popular in his homeland of Georgia, which Ukrainians have no ill feelings toward (at least no one I've ever met). These things aren't strictly logical, then (nor should we expect them to be -- people are people.)

    Bandera and his movement have horrible crimes to answer for (against not only Poles, but also against non-Banderist Ukrainians), but enabling the Nazi master plan against Ukrainians was not on of them.
     
    Again, I disagree with this (see above).
  95. @Kovar
    A nationalist writing for the Atlantic Council? Are you this dense?

    They can tolerate "nationalism" only if it serves the purpose of weakening Russia (or China) and strengthening the Trotskyite West. It's a means to an end, but you can rest assured that it's not the end itself. If Ukraine is ever severed from Russia and fully integrated with the West - unlikely to happen because of Crimea and the Donbass - all these Atlanticist organizations, including the pitiful Atlantic Council, will drop these pretenses quickly.

    Not only that, I can already see Trotskyite undercurrents being disseminated by Western-funded outlets and organizations in Ukraine. The LGBT lobby is a prime example, it has been growing since 2014 (the dislike to like ratio of the official parade in Kiev, covered & posted every year by the CIA's Radio Liberty Ukrainian branch on YouTube, is decreasing on a yearly basis, I'm amazed at the consistency in attitude change). Another favorite Trotskyite strategy, that of riling up women against men is also growing (it helps to divide the votes and polarize society, making unity impossible and eliminating any chances of having an authoritative figure come to power... they can then fund the opposing sides for decades while making sure their cultural and economic policies are slowly but steadily implemented, and of course the nationalists will be on the losing side). Ukrainian men are targeted with talks of domestic violence, in other words, Ukrainian women are told to believe they are the victims of a patriarchal system. If Ukraine had enough non-whites, you'd see a growing and completely pre-planned voting bloc. They'll make short work of Ukraine, it's an ongoing process.

    Having watched the developments in the Anglosphere and Western Europe in the last decades, I know too well what to expect, and a nationalist triumph is certainly not part of the plan, LOL.

    Well said. Any country that wants a healthy future should stop these sick bastards from even getting a foothold in their society.

    Prohibit any propaganda or gatherings by advocates of psychological disorder and sexual deviancy (homosexuality) and mental illness and self-mutilation (“transgenderism”). No positive portrayal of these disorders in tv, movies, billboards, etc. No pornography.

    Parades expressing “pride” in objectively filthy “sex” practices and deviancy should end with the participants in prison.

    Institute a school curriculum that plainly identifies these disorders as such.

    Any teacher or counselor encouraging a minor to become a deviant or indulge in harmful delusions or conduct (like “identifying” as the opposite sex or some nonexistent third sex) should be fired, prosecuted, fined, imprisoned, and barred from working with minors again.

    Don’t care about the disapproval of people who want to pervert your children and have your family and nation die out. Stand up, Russia and Ukraine, before it’s too late. Already the perverts and misfits have too much acceptance and growing influence in your societies. You don’t want to become like us.

  96. @A123

    the same is true about our federal taxes spent by Rep president: ... infrastructure, education, and that decrepit healthcare get nothing.
     
    Are you intentionally trying to be misleading? You need to take up the low infrastructure spending with your most beloved DNC majority leader Pelosi.

    Any President can only spend what is appropriated by Congress. Trump managed to generate a small amount of funding for border security by rearranging funds. However, that is a very limited solution versus intentional efforts by DNC special interests. The Dems are undermining and redirecting infrastructure spending.

    PEACE 😷

    So, the Dems are scum. No argument there. Now, please remind when Trump proposed investing in infrastructure, or education, or anything else beneficial for the country. In contrast, I vividly recall ever more bloated “defense” spending budget he proposes annually.

    • Replies: @A123

    Now, please remind when Trump proposed investing in infrastructure, or education, or anything else beneficial for the country. In contrast, I vividly recall ever more bloated “defense” spending budget he proposes annually.
     
    That is very selective memory recall. You should have a physical check-up to look for Alzheimer's or other forms of early onset Biden-ism.

    Trump made a big push for infrastructure:(1)

    President Trump’s legislative framework for a sweeping overhaul of the nation’s infrastructure appears all but dead in Congress.

    Lawmakers are focused on other legislative matters, and Democrats say the latest “infrastructure week” that started Sunday has done little to reinvigorate the president’s plan.

    “The infrastructure week’s been overtaken by the latest tweet,” quipped Rep. John Garamendi (D-Calif.), a member of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. “There’s just no energy left in it.”
     
    Trump is a President, not an Ayatollah or a King. The DNC Globalists made it clear that they were 100% opposed to infrastructure spending and were going to use Senate rules to kill it. He can only do so much when facing low-IQ intransigent office holders from the Democrat Party. DNC Globalists reflexively oppose practical projects beneficial to the country.

    PEACE 😷
    _______

    (1) From 2018 -- https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/388071-trumps-infrastructure-plan-hits-a-dead-end
  97. @AnonFromTN
    So, the Dems are scum. No argument there. Now, please remind when Trump proposed investing in infrastructure, or education, or anything else beneficial for the country. In contrast, I vividly recall ever more bloated “defense” spending budget he proposes annually.

    Now, please remind when Trump proposed investing in infrastructure, or education, or anything else beneficial for the country. In contrast, I vividly recall ever more bloated “defense” spending budget he proposes annually.

    That is very selective memory recall. You should have a physical check-up to look for Alzheimer’s or other forms of early onset Biden-ism.

    Trump made a big push for infrastructure:(1)

    President Trump’s legislative framework for a sweeping overhaul of the nation’s infrastructure appears all but dead in Congress.

    Lawmakers are focused on other legislative matters, and Democrats say the latest “infrastructure week” that started Sunday has done little to reinvigorate the president’s plan.

    “The infrastructure week’s been overtaken by the latest tweet,” quipped Rep. John Garamendi (D-Calif.), a member of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. “There’s just no energy left in it.”

    Trump is a President, not an Ayatollah or a King. The DNC Globalists made it clear that they were 100% opposed to infrastructure spending and were going to use Senate rules to kill it. He can only do so much when facing low-IQ intransigent office holders from the Democrat Party. DNC Globalists reflexively oppose practical projects beneficial to the country.

    PEACE 😷
    _______

    (1) From 2018 — https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/388071-trumps-infrastructure-plan-hits-a-dead-end

  98. @AP
    Without taking into account the extent of testing in each country this is a very dumb claim to make.

    LOL – AnonFromTN CLEARLY selected only countries noted for doing a higher rate of tests than the US you cret*n!That was his whole point – With the world average only used as base level. That makes his points about recoveries:deaths even more valid against your time-wasting drivel.

    without taking into account the extent of testing in each country, this is a very dumb claim to make

    Considering that “the world” consists of 80% of coronavirus infections in first World or NATO countries, with the large majority of them(non US) doing a higher rate of testing than the US anyway…… the health care system of the “indespensible nation” has been shown to be inadequate and a fraud.

    Going with your unhinged BS nonsense about negros in care homes and on any medical issue–it looks like your “medical background”claims are even more a fantasist fraud than your
    Ukrainian /Russian language and visit BS claims

    • Replies: @AP

    AnonFromTN CLEARLY selected only countries noted for doing a higher rate of tests than the US
     
    A higher rate of testing would capture more mild cases who might not otherwise have been tested, and thus improve the recovery to death ratio, dummy.

    unhinged BS nonsense about negros in care homes
     
    You made the incredibly stupid claim that old black people are less likely to end up in nursing homes than are old white people:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/corona-opportunities/#comment-3837025

    "Care homes in much of the west are more white than the general population, so blacks and Asians are more likely to have their grandparents living with them"

    In the USA, among people age 65 or older, blacks are 9% of the population:

    https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2018/acs/ACS-38.pdf

    However, blacks are 14% of the nursing home population:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/717618/percent-of-nursing-home-residents-in-us-by-ethnicity/

    ::::::::::::::::::

    When you became a trans, "Ms.", did they cut off the wrong head?

  99. @Mr. Hack

    So, the US results are 2.22 times worse than world average
     
    So what are you still doing here? Run don't hide and get the hell out while you still can!

    Projection, Mr Hack? After all, North American Banderetard CIA “help” to ukropia has been some of the best self-sabotage possible. Isn’t it established fact that if ukrop authorities had listened to people like Anon over the last 29 years… then they would be multiple times superior to the degrading position they are now in after being manipulated by evil, demented, dumb, Galicia CIA smuggled clowns? Doesn’t that ultimately make Anon the bigger patriot?

    The US has gained far more from intellectual Soviet people like AnonFromTN than viceversa

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Here I am trying to gently coax Professor Janissar back to Ukraine, to help right all of the Galician wrongs done to his home country, and you so viciously try to hoist upon me all of your simple memes about secret Banderite enclaves gathered in the West that control all of what goes on in Kyiv? Now where's the sense or fairness in that?

    You live in Great Russia, where neither a Galician nor a Banderits sleeps safely at night. Can't you guys help poor Yanukovych out and organize some sort of a military unit to help him reaquire what was so wrongly taken away from him? Don't waste your time writing worthless propaganda here at this website, do something really useful and help spread the greatness of the "Ruskij Mir."
    , @Adûnâi
    > "...evil, demented, dumb, Galicia CIA smuggled clowns..."

    Galicians are no different than any other Slav capitalists. They do not bother caring about the survival of their blood. They do not care about their women whoring themselves to Negroes. They have no aspirations to take the means of production back from the claws of the bourgeois Jews.

    I would have admired Galicians if they wanted to ethnically cleanse the Donbass. If the tales are true, my metaphorical uncles murdered 70k-100k Poles in cold blood. But is their deed remembered and praised? No.

    Instead, they are calling the Soviet Union patriarchal and thus evil! Because they are busy taking every latest kind of bullshit from Amerikwa and growing it in our soil!

    Should I be surprised when my countrymen believe in literal magic and witchcraft? The USSR has failed!

    http://archive.vn/ruGpX
  100. • Replies: @128
    One is not like the other?
  101. AP says:
    @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    LOL - AnonFromTN CLEARLY selected only countries noted for doing a higher rate of tests than the US you cret*n!That was his whole point - With the world average only used as base level. That makes his points about recoveries:deaths even more valid against your time-wasting drivel.

    without taking into account the extent of testing in each country, this is a very dumb claim to make
     
    Considering that "the world" consists of 80% of coronavirus infections in first World or NATO countries, with the large majority of them(non US) doing a higher rate of testing than the US anyway...... the health care system of the "indespensible nation" has been shown to be inadequate and a fraud.

    Going with your unhinged BS nonsense about negros in care homes and on any medical issue--it looks like your "medical background"claims are even more a fantasist fraud than your
    Ukrainian /Russian language and visit BS claims

    AnonFromTN CLEARLY selected only countries noted for doing a higher rate of tests than the US

    A higher rate of testing would capture more mild cases who might not otherwise have been tested, and thus improve the recovery to death ratio, dummy.

    unhinged BS nonsense about negros in care homes

    You made the incredibly stupid claim that old black people are less likely to end up in nursing homes than are old white people:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/corona-opportunities/#comment-3837025

    “Care homes in much of the west are more white than the general population, so blacks and Asians are more likely to have their grandparents living with them”

    In the USA, among people age 65 or older, blacks are 9% of the population:

    https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2018/acs/ACS-38.pdf

    However, blacks are 14% of the nursing home population:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/717618/percent-of-nursing-home-residents-in-us-by-ethnicity/

    ::::::::::::::::::

    When you became a trans, “Ms.”, did they cut off the wrong head?

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    LOL!

    1. Nursing Home is a majority but far from all, "Old People's home" you dummy. Palliative care, for sufferers from diseases and injuries that are not particularly age-biased, nut jobs, drugaddicts, military veterans etcetera

    2. Nursing home is not entirely the same as a care home-LOL

    3. I mixed referring the west and US, without ever specifying the US (just as the post I replied to was not US specific)... You again just wasted your own time giving a dubious BS link. You only projected it because, as with Anon, you are pathetically desperate to find error- probably because of total east-slavic language deficiency . Do you know if there is or what us the ethnic care home data for UK, France, Canada? - of course not.

    4. Basic premise of my point is beyond dispute. Inter-generational living together, and therefore transmission of disease, is much more common in negros and Indian-Asians than it is for whites

    5. Further common sense is that more whites can afford care homes and different generations less inclined to want to live together.... and elderly whites far more likely to be able to either modify their own house (e. g stairlifts, specialised bathrooms) or pay for a carer/nurse to visit their own home- than negros are. Living together for whites very much the lesser option- if those getting treated further deteriorate--they will move to the care home

    As AnonFromTN was hinting at - you can subtract asymptomatic cases from Russia's CV.... and you will still see a much superior recovery:death ratio to the US LOL. Same with most first world country's with testing ratio less or higher than US.
    US deaths now exploding compared to the west European countries that were having a very bad experience for the last weeks. That said, there is no excuse for Spain's recovery to deaths ratio be that much better than the US, fully accounting differences in testing rates...... because they were only 2 days apart in reaching 500 cases.

    On a separate note - I doubt you are even a hospital porter, nevermind a medical professional. Nothing you write suggests differently

  102. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    Projection, Mr Hack? After all, North American Banderetard CIA "help" to ukropia has been some of the best self-sabotage possible. Isn't it established fact that if ukrop authorities had listened to people like Anon over the last 29 years... then they would be multiple times superior to the degrading position they are now in after being manipulated by evil, demented, dumb, Galicia CIA smuggled clowns? Doesn't that ultimately make Anon the bigger patriot?

    The US has gained far more from intellectual Soviet people like AnonFromTN than viceversa

    Here I am trying to gently coax Professor Janissar back to Ukraine, to help right all of the Galician wrongs done to his home country, and you so viciously try to hoist upon me all of your simple memes about secret Banderite enclaves gathered in the West that control all of what goes on in Kyiv? Now where’s the sense or fairness in that?

    You live in Great Russia, where neither a Galician nor a Banderits sleeps safely at night. Can’t you guys help poor Yanukovych out and organize some sort of a military unit to help him reaquire what was so wrongly taken away from him? Don’t waste your time writing worthless propaganda here at this website, do something really useful and help spread the greatness of the “Ruskij Mir.”

  103. @AP

    > “AFAIK not as many Ukrainians, as were killed by Stalin plus Lenin in the 20th century.”

    WW2 Ukrainians killed: 6,850,000 (16.3%).
     

    This is total deaths, it also includes those killed by Communists during the war.

    Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder).

    Total civilian deaths (by killing, famine, and disease) of Ukrainians during World War II was 5.3 million. This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans.

    Stalin starved to death about 3 to 3.5 million Ukrainians in 1932-1933. Another few 100,000s Ukrainians died by execution, dekulakization, deportation during Stalin's rule. So about 3.5 to 4 million total deaths from Stalin.

    Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923.

    So more Ukrainians were probably killed by Lenin+ Stalin than by Hitler.


    All in all, 27 million Ukrainians perished at the Western hands
     
    Try again.

    The USSR prevented the utter annihilation of the Ukrainian population at the hands of the victorious Germans
     
    With no USSR there would have been no Hitler. USSR made Hitler possible. And epic Soviet incompetence during the war provided Hitler with the opportunity to kill millions of Ukrainians. After the Soviets themselves had killed even more Ukrainians.

    the USSR policies led to the highest population Little Russia ever reached
     
    No this occurred in spite of Soviet policies that cost millions of lives. As in Russia. Millions of people who had no children or grandchildren.

    Stalin should be credited with the ethnic cleansing of Poles from East Galicia and Volhynia: 141k Poles resettled as compared to the previous murder of 70k-100k Poles by the Ukrainians themselves.
     
    Stalin also killed about 110,000 ethnic Poles in Ukraine, outdoing Bandera's men:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD

    That number does not include the ones who died while being deported.

    > “Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder).”

    Completely disingenuous. Obviously, the Ukrainians were conscripted to defend their land from invaders.

    > “This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans.”

    Anyone killed in WW2 is on Germany’s conscience. Because Germany started the war.

    > “Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923.”

    Ah, Lenin. The man who defended the Country of the Soviets from foreign interventions. Civil wars are no different from other conflicts which are waged by multiple parties. The casualties of the White Terror are estimated at 100k-300k.

    > “With no USSR there would have been no Hitler.”

    And with no Wilhelmine Germany, there would have been no USSR.

    > “No this occurred in spite of Soviet policies that cost millions of lives. As in Russia. Millions of people who had no children or grandchildren.”

    See, you are denying reality. The reality is that the USSR gave East Slavs the most optimal conditions for procreation they had ever experienced. The West was worse. The westernized East is now worse.

    Obviously, I will not deny that the USSR rotted away and killed itself. That is reality, too.

    But the direction for a better society should be sought not in the realm of even more degeneracy, i.e., the West, but in the extremes of White Sharia and White Juche. We need more GULAGs for traitors and spies, not fewer. Soviet Russia fell because of internal elements which stopped being carted away to Siberia after Stalin had passed away.

    • Replies: @AP
    So you don't know how to use blockquote like a human being?

    > “Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder).”

    Completely disingenuous. Obviously, the Ukrainians were conscripted to defend their land from invaders.
     

    If that were the case, they would have volunteered. They were often unwilling to fight in the beginning, surrendering en masse. Soviets set up special detachments to shoot would-be deserters or those trying to retreat. In your intellectual dishonesty you present these as victims of the Nazis.

    > “This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans.”

    Anyone killed in WW2 is on Germany’s conscience. Because Germany started the war.
     

    So in your world when Communists slaughtered Ukrainians for supposed disloyalty, this counts as death by the Nazis.

    > “Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923.”

    Ah, Lenin. The man who defended the Country of the Soviets from foreign interventions. Civil wars are no different from other conflicts which are waged by multiple parties. The casualties of the White Terror are estimated at 100k-300k.
     

    Sure. I agree - he had to kill lots of Ukrainians in order to establish his rule over them. The point is that when you add up the number of Ukrainian civilians killed in the 20th century by Moscow, whether Moscow was ruled by Lenin or Stalin, this number was smaller than the number of Ukrainians killed by Hitler. You had claimed the opposite, and you were wrong, so now you want to justify the Soviet killings.

    > “No this occurred in spite of Soviet policies that cost millions of lives. As in Russia. Millions of people who had no children or grandchildren.”

    See, you are denying reality. The reality is that the USSR gave East Slavs the most optimal conditions for procreation they had ever experienced.
     

    Russian TFR collapsed under the Soviets:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1033851/fertility-rate-russia-1840-2020/

    https://cdn.statcdn.com/Statistic/1030000/1033851-blank-355.png

    (numbers in link)

    Russian TFR improved to over 7 by 1895 and stayed that high until World War I.

    Ukraine offers an interesting natural experiment showing the lingering effects of Soviet rule on natural population growth: the Russian governate of Volhynia. It was split in 1919, with the western part becoming part of Poland and the eastern part, part of the USSR. These two parts are Volyn/Riven oblasts and Zhytomir oblast, respectively.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Ukraine_natural_population_growth_rates.png/450px-Ukraine_natural_population_growth_rates.png

    Volyn and Rivne had positive population growth increase of .7 and 1.8. Cross the 1921 border and it drops to minus 5.3. Indeed, across you can tell which areas were Soviet the least by the higher natural population growth.

    So the Soviet negative effect on population growth was the "gift" that kept on giving.

    When you consider both the mass killings (and concomitant fewer children grandchildren as well as the victims themselves) and the collapse in fertility under the Communists, at a minimum there are 80 million fewer Eastern Slavs today because of the Bolsheviks, almost a Germany's worth of them.

  104. AP says:
    @Adûnâi
    > "Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder)."

    Completely disingenuous. Obviously, the Ukrainians were conscripted to defend their land from invaders.

    > "This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans."

    Anyone killed in WW2 is on Germany's conscience. Because Germany started the war.

    > "Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923."

    Ah, Lenin. The man who defended the Country of the Soviets from foreign interventions. Civil wars are no different from other conflicts which are waged by multiple parties. The casualties of the White Terror are estimated at 100k-300k.

    > "With no USSR there would have been no Hitler."

    And with no Wilhelmine Germany, there would have been no USSR.

    > "No this occurred in spite of Soviet policies that cost millions of lives. As in Russia. Millions of people who had no children or grandchildren."

    See, you are denying reality. The reality is that the USSR gave East Slavs the most optimal conditions for procreation they had ever experienced. The West was worse. The westernized East is now worse.

    Obviously, I will not deny that the USSR rotted away and killed itself. That is reality, too.

    But the direction for a better society should be sought not in the realm of even more degeneracy, i.e., the West, but in the extremes of White Sharia and White Juche. We need more GULAGs for traitors and spies, not fewer. Soviet Russia fell because of internal elements which stopped being carted away to Siberia after Stalin had passed away.

    So you don’t know how to use blockquote like a human being?

    > “Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder).”

    Completely disingenuous. Obviously, the Ukrainians were conscripted to defend their land from invaders.

    If that were the case, they would have volunteered. They were often unwilling to fight in the beginning, surrendering en masse. Soviets set up special detachments to shoot would-be deserters or those trying to retreat. In your intellectual dishonesty you present these as victims of the Nazis.

    > “This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans.”

    Anyone killed in WW2 is on Germany’s conscience. Because Germany started the war.

    So in your world when Communists slaughtered Ukrainians for supposed disloyalty, this counts as death by the Nazis.

    > “Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923.”

    Ah, Lenin. The man who defended the Country of the Soviets from foreign interventions. Civil wars are no different from other conflicts which are waged by multiple parties. The casualties of the White Terror are estimated at 100k-300k.

    Sure. I agree – he had to kill lots of Ukrainians in order to establish his rule over them. The point is that when you add up the number of Ukrainian civilians killed in the 20th century by Moscow, whether Moscow was ruled by Lenin or Stalin, this number was smaller than the number of Ukrainians killed by Hitler. You had claimed the opposite, and you were wrong, so now you want to justify the Soviet killings.

    > “No this occurred in spite of Soviet policies that cost millions of lives. As in Russia. Millions of people who had no children or grandchildren.”

    See, you are denying reality. The reality is that the USSR gave East Slavs the most optimal conditions for procreation they had ever experienced.

    Russian TFR collapsed under the Soviets:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1033851/fertility-rate-russia-1840-2020/

    (numbers in link)

    Russian TFR improved to over 7 by 1895 and stayed that high until World War I.

    Ukraine offers an interesting natural experiment showing the lingering effects of Soviet rule on natural population growth: the Russian governate of Volhynia. It was split in 1919, with the western part becoming part of Poland and the eastern part, part of the USSR. These two parts are Volyn/Riven oblasts and Zhytomir oblast, respectively.

    Volyn and Rivne had positive population growth increase of .7 and 1.8. Cross the 1921 border and it drops to minus 5.3. Indeed, across you can tell which areas were Soviet the least by the higher natural population growth.

    So the Soviet negative effect on population growth was the “gift” that kept on giving.

    When you consider both the mass killings (and concomitant fewer children grandchildren as well as the victims themselves) and the collapse in fertility under the Communists, at a minimum there are 80 million fewer Eastern Slavs today because of the Bolsheviks, almost a Germany’s worth of them.

    • Replies: @Adûnâi
    > "So you don’t know how to use blockquote like a human being?"

    I believe, my system is neater.

    > "If that were the case, they would have volunteered. They were often unwilling to fight in the beginning, surrendering en masse. Soviets set up special detachments to shoot would-be deserters or those trying to retreat. In your intellectual dishonesty you present these as victims of the Nazis."

    1. You are confusing the start of the war with the latter parts of the fighting.

    2. Surrendering to the Germans often meant death - 3.3-3.5 mil. of Soviet PoWs died.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_mistreatment_of_Soviet_prisoners_of_war

    > "So in your world when Communists slaughtered Ukrainians for supposed disloyalty, this counts as death by the Nazis."

    3. Shooting deserters is what armies and countries do. The difference is the aim of the particular country - the USSR was fighting for the relative well-being of the Ukrainian nation.

    > "Sure. I agree – he had to kill lots of Ukrainians in order to establish his rule over them."

    It was a civil war. The whole of Russia was torn apart. Capitalist lapdogs were advancing from all sides. The German Reich wanted a cut, Pilsudsky's Poland, France, even Japan.

    > "The point is that when you add up the number of Ukrainian civilians killed in the 20th century by Moscow, whether Moscow was ruled by Lenin or Stalin, this number was smaller than the number of Ukrainians killed by Hitler."

    1. Hitler started the war which led to the deaths of 27 mil. Soviets.

    2. No, you are misconstruing my point - I argued for the West as opposed to the East - and that includes the post-1991 ravaging of the lands of the East Slavs, which led to the decrease of upwards to 30 mil. East Slavs (~20 mil. Ukrainians, ~10 mil. Russians).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia#Peoples_of_European_Russia

    3. That you fail to recognize that little historical fact that Hitler lost the war and thus killed fewer Little Russians than he might have is a testament to your dishonesty. The vector under Hitler pointed down, under the USSR it was up.

    > "Russian TFR collapsed under the Soviets:"

    Obviously - industrialization. The thing that prevented the Russian race from being wiped out in the 1940s.

    > "Volyn and Rivne had positive population growth increase of .7 and 1.8. Cross the 1921 border and it drops to minus 5.3. Indeed, across you can tell which areas were Soviet the least by the higher natural population growth."

    That is complicated. You also need to account for the lower urbanization rates of Western Ukraine coupled with higher population density along with higher religiosity (it is a well-known fact that the worship of the crucified Jew correlates negatively with whoredom, unfortunately).

    > "...at a minimum there are 80 million fewer Eastern Slavs today because of the Bolsheviks, almost a Germany’s worth of them."

    Under Soviet-style Socialism, the population of Poland grew from 23.8 mil. in 1946 to 38.5 in 1993. The first time the total fertility rate dipped below 2.1 was in 1989 (2.08). After 1989, it never rose up again. After 1993, the population growth continued until 2002, but never reaching the heights of hundreds of thousands per year, as it had been under the Soviets. Since 2013, the population of Poland has gone into a death spiral, losing 35k in 2019.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Poland

    The population of Hungary increased from 9 mil. in 1945 to 10.7 mil. in 1980. Since then, it has been losing 30k-40k people a year.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hungary

    Based on these data, I would posit that the West is more deadly than Bolshevism.
    , @Dmitry

    TFR collapsed under the Soviets:
     
    Every developed and industrialized country in the world has demographic transition in the 20th century. Well, a few much more advanced countries like France, Great Britiain and Germany, have stages of it already in the 19th century - even before the technology of contraception matches preferences of industrializing countries.

    Nowadays, this is just stable to any external changes. In recent decades, cohort fertility in Russia has been almost unchanging, and is just a little below of replacement for the generation of women who are at more childgiving ages in the 1980s.

    The USSR had slightly higher fertility rates than the most advanced European countries, but the change in fertility rates or demographic transition was simply a reflection of the successful economic development.

    After the collapse of the USSR, cohort fertility rates fall in a few years by 0,2-0,3 to 1,6, where they have likely not changed at all for 25 years, despite years of economic collapse and subsequent years of economic recovery. Fertility rates have likely been continuously at this same level since, regardless of economic vicissitudes.

    So the difference between the late-stage communism and capitalism - is a neglible 0,2-0,3 children fall. And between economic collapse in the 1990s, and economic growth in the 2000s - there is no change in real fertility. It is the "Zeitgest".

  105. @AP
    So you don't know how to use blockquote like a human being?

    > “Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder).”

    Completely disingenuous. Obviously, the Ukrainians were conscripted to defend their land from invaders.
     

    If that were the case, they would have volunteered. They were often unwilling to fight in the beginning, surrendering en masse. Soviets set up special detachments to shoot would-be deserters or those trying to retreat. In your intellectual dishonesty you present these as victims of the Nazis.

    > “This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans.”

    Anyone killed in WW2 is on Germany’s conscience. Because Germany started the war.
     

    So in your world when Communists slaughtered Ukrainians for supposed disloyalty, this counts as death by the Nazis.

    > “Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923.”

    Ah, Lenin. The man who defended the Country of the Soviets from foreign interventions. Civil wars are no different from other conflicts which are waged by multiple parties. The casualties of the White Terror are estimated at 100k-300k.
     

    Sure. I agree - he had to kill lots of Ukrainians in order to establish his rule over them. The point is that when you add up the number of Ukrainian civilians killed in the 20th century by Moscow, whether Moscow was ruled by Lenin or Stalin, this number was smaller than the number of Ukrainians killed by Hitler. You had claimed the opposite, and you were wrong, so now you want to justify the Soviet killings.

    > “No this occurred in spite of Soviet policies that cost millions of lives. As in Russia. Millions of people who had no children or grandchildren.”

    See, you are denying reality. The reality is that the USSR gave East Slavs the most optimal conditions for procreation they had ever experienced.
     

    Russian TFR collapsed under the Soviets:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1033851/fertility-rate-russia-1840-2020/

    https://cdn.statcdn.com/Statistic/1030000/1033851-blank-355.png

    (numbers in link)

    Russian TFR improved to over 7 by 1895 and stayed that high until World War I.

    Ukraine offers an interesting natural experiment showing the lingering effects of Soviet rule on natural population growth: the Russian governate of Volhynia. It was split in 1919, with the western part becoming part of Poland and the eastern part, part of the USSR. These two parts are Volyn/Riven oblasts and Zhytomir oblast, respectively.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Ukraine_natural_population_growth_rates.png/450px-Ukraine_natural_population_growth_rates.png

    Volyn and Rivne had positive population growth increase of .7 and 1.8. Cross the 1921 border and it drops to minus 5.3. Indeed, across you can tell which areas were Soviet the least by the higher natural population growth.

    So the Soviet negative effect on population growth was the "gift" that kept on giving.

    When you consider both the mass killings (and concomitant fewer children grandchildren as well as the victims themselves) and the collapse in fertility under the Communists, at a minimum there are 80 million fewer Eastern Slavs today because of the Bolsheviks, almost a Germany's worth of them.

    > “So you don’t know how to use blockquote like a human being?”

    I believe, my system is neater.

    > “If that were the case, they would have volunteered. They were often unwilling to fight in the beginning, surrendering en masse. Soviets set up special detachments to shoot would-be deserters or those trying to retreat. In your intellectual dishonesty you present these as victims of the Nazis.”

    1. You are confusing the start of the war with the latter parts of the fighting.

    2. Surrendering to the Germans often meant death – 3.3-3.5 mil. of Soviet PoWs died.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_mistreatment_of_Soviet_prisoners_of_war

    > “So in your world when Communists slaughtered Ukrainians for supposed disloyalty, this counts as death by the Nazis.”

    3. Shooting deserters is what armies and countries do. The difference is the aim of the particular country – the USSR was fighting for the relative well-being of the Ukrainian nation.

    > “Sure. I agree – he had to kill lots of Ukrainians in order to establish his rule over them.”

    It was a civil war. The whole of Russia was torn apart. Capitalist lapdogs were advancing from all sides. The German Reich wanted a cut, Pilsudsky’s Poland, France, even Japan.

    > “The point is that when you add up the number of Ukrainian civilians killed in the 20th century by Moscow, whether Moscow was ruled by Lenin or Stalin, this number was smaller than the number of Ukrainians killed by Hitler.”

    1. Hitler started the war which led to the deaths of 27 mil. Soviets.

    2. No, you are misconstruing my point – I argued for the West as opposed to the East – and that includes the post-1991 ravaging of the lands of the East Slavs, which led to the decrease of upwards to 30 mil. East Slavs (~20 mil. Ukrainians, ~10 mil. Russians).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia#Peoples_of_European_Russia

    3. That you fail to recognize that little historical fact that Hitler lost the war and thus killed fewer Little Russians than he might have is a testament to your dishonesty. The vector under Hitler pointed down, under the USSR it was up.

    > “Russian TFR collapsed under the Soviets:”

    Obviously – industrialization. The thing that prevented the Russian race from being wiped out in the 1940s.

    > “Volyn and Rivne had positive population growth increase of .7 and 1.8. Cross the 1921 border and it drops to minus 5.3. Indeed, across you can tell which areas were Soviet the least by the higher natural population growth.”

    That is complicated. You also need to account for the lower urbanization rates of Western Ukraine coupled with higher population density along with higher religiosity (it is a well-known fact that the worship of the crucified Jew correlates negatively with whoredom, unfortunately).

    > “…at a minimum there are 80 million fewer Eastern Slavs today because of the Bolsheviks, almost a Germany’s worth of them.”

    Under Soviet-style Socialism, the population of Poland grew from 23.8 mil. in 1946 to 38.5 in 1993. The first time the total fertility rate dipped below 2.1 was in 1989 (2.08). After 1989, it never rose up again. After 1993, the population growth continued until 2002, but never reaching the heights of hundreds of thousands per year, as it had been under the Soviets. Since 2013, the population of Poland has gone into a death spiral, losing 35k in 2019.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Poland

    The population of Hungary increased from 9 mil. in 1945 to 10.7 mil. in 1980. Since then, it has been losing 30k-40k people a year.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hungary

    Based on these data, I would posit that the West is more deadly than Bolshevism.

  106. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    Projection, Mr Hack? After all, North American Banderetard CIA "help" to ukropia has been some of the best self-sabotage possible. Isn't it established fact that if ukrop authorities had listened to people like Anon over the last 29 years... then they would be multiple times superior to the degrading position they are now in after being manipulated by evil, demented, dumb, Galicia CIA smuggled clowns? Doesn't that ultimately make Anon the bigger patriot?

    The US has gained far more from intellectual Soviet people like AnonFromTN than viceversa

    > “…evil, demented, dumb, Galicia CIA smuggled clowns…”

    Galicians are no different than any other Slav capitalists. They do not bother caring about the survival of their blood. They do not care about their women whoring themselves to Negroes. They have no aspirations to take the means of production back from the claws of the bourgeois Jews.

    I would have admired Galicians if they wanted to ethnically cleanse the Donbass. If the tales are true, my metaphorical uncles murdered 70k-100k Poles in cold blood. But is their deed remembered and praised? No.

    Instead, they are calling the Soviet Union patriarchal and thus evil! Because they are busy taking every latest kind of bullshit from Amerikwa and growing it in our soil!

    Should I be surprised when my countrymen believe in literal magic and witchcraft? The USSR has failed!

    http://archive.vn/ruGpX

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    https://theduran.com/polish-general-encourages-polish-soldiers-to-fight-against-american-occupation/
  107. @AP

    AnonFromTN CLEARLY selected only countries noted for doing a higher rate of tests than the US
     
    A higher rate of testing would capture more mild cases who might not otherwise have been tested, and thus improve the recovery to death ratio, dummy.

    unhinged BS nonsense about negros in care homes
     
    You made the incredibly stupid claim that old black people are less likely to end up in nursing homes than are old white people:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/corona-opportunities/#comment-3837025

    "Care homes in much of the west are more white than the general population, so blacks and Asians are more likely to have their grandparents living with them"

    In the USA, among people age 65 or older, blacks are 9% of the population:

    https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2018/acs/ACS-38.pdf

    However, blacks are 14% of the nursing home population:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/717618/percent-of-nursing-home-residents-in-us-by-ethnicity/

    ::::::::::::::::::

    When you became a trans, "Ms.", did they cut off the wrong head?

    LOL!

    1. Nursing Home is a majority but far from all, “Old People’s home” you dummy. Palliative care, for sufferers from diseases and injuries that are not particularly age-biased, nut jobs, drugaddicts, military veterans etcetera

    2. Nursing home is not entirely the same as a care home-LOL

    3. I mixed referring the west and US, without ever specifying the US (just as the post I replied to was not US specific)… You again just wasted your own time giving a dubious BS link. You only projected it because, as with Anon, you are pathetically desperate to find error- probably because of total east-slavic language deficiency . Do you know if there is or what us the ethnic care home data for UK, France, Canada? – of course not.

    4. Basic premise of my point is beyond dispute. Inter-generational living together, and therefore transmission of disease, is much more common in negros and Indian-Asians than it is for whites

    5. Further common sense is that more whites can afford care homes and different generations less inclined to want to live together…. and elderly whites far more likely to be able to either modify their own house (e. g stairlifts, specialised bathrooms) or pay for a carer/nurse to visit their own home- than negros are. Living together for whites very much the lesser option- if those getting treated further deteriorate–they will move to the care home

    As AnonFromTN was hinting at – you can subtract asymptomatic cases from Russia’s CV…. and you will still see a much superior recovery:death ratio to the US LOL. Same with most first world country’s with testing ratio less or higher than US.
    US deaths now exploding compared to the west European countries that were having a very bad experience for the last weeks. That said, there is no excuse for Spain’s recovery to deaths ratio be that much better than the US, fully accounting differences in testing rates…… because they were only 2 days apart in reaching 500 cases.

    On a separate note – I doubt you are even a hospital porter, nevermind a medical professional. Nothing you write suggests differently

  108. @Blinky Bill
    https://i.redd.it/5kqfmmht01u41.jpg

    One is not like the other?

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument
  109. @AP
    So you don't know how to use blockquote like a human being?

    > “Moreover, it includes military deaths (you want to include those because Hitler invaded? You can just as easily attribute those deaths to Stalin, who conscripted Ukrainians and used them as cannon fodder).”

    Completely disingenuous. Obviously, the Ukrainians were conscripted to defend their land from invaders.
     

    If that were the case, they would have volunteered. They were often unwilling to fight in the beginning, surrendering en masse. Soviets set up special detachments to shoot would-be deserters or those trying to retreat. In your intellectual dishonesty you present these as victims of the Nazis.

    > “This includes civilians killed by Germans and those killed by Soviets. Most were killed by Germans, so perhaps 5 million by Germans.”

    Anyone killed in WW2 is on Germany’s conscience. Because Germany started the war.
     

    So in your world when Communists slaughtered Ukrainians for supposed disloyalty, this counts as death by the Nazis.

    > “Under Lenin there was mass Red terror and mass executions, plus a famine that killed about 1.5 million people in 1921-1923.”

    Ah, Lenin. The man who defended the Country of the Soviets from foreign interventions. Civil wars are no different from other conflicts which are waged by multiple parties. The casualties of the White Terror are estimated at 100k-300k.
     

    Sure. I agree - he had to kill lots of Ukrainians in order to establish his rule over them. The point is that when you add up the number of Ukrainian civilians killed in the 20th century by Moscow, whether Moscow was ruled by Lenin or Stalin, this number was smaller than the number of Ukrainians killed by Hitler. You had claimed the opposite, and you were wrong, so now you want to justify the Soviet killings.

    > “No this occurred in spite of Soviet policies that cost millions of lives. As in Russia. Millions of people who had no children or grandchildren.”

    See, you are denying reality. The reality is that the USSR gave East Slavs the most optimal conditions for procreation they had ever experienced.
     

    Russian TFR collapsed under the Soviets:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1033851/fertility-rate-russia-1840-2020/

    https://cdn.statcdn.com/Statistic/1030000/1033851-blank-355.png

    (numbers in link)

    Russian TFR improved to over 7 by 1895 and stayed that high until World War I.

    Ukraine offers an interesting natural experiment showing the lingering effects of Soviet rule on natural population growth: the Russian governate of Volhynia. It was split in 1919, with the western part becoming part of Poland and the eastern part, part of the USSR. These two parts are Volyn/Riven oblasts and Zhytomir oblast, respectively.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Ukraine_natural_population_growth_rates.png/450px-Ukraine_natural_population_growth_rates.png

    Volyn and Rivne had positive population growth increase of .7 and 1.8. Cross the 1921 border and it drops to minus 5.3. Indeed, across you can tell which areas were Soviet the least by the higher natural population growth.

    So the Soviet negative effect on population growth was the "gift" that kept on giving.

    When you consider both the mass killings (and concomitant fewer children grandchildren as well as the victims themselves) and the collapse in fertility under the Communists, at a minimum there are 80 million fewer Eastern Slavs today because of the Bolsheviks, almost a Germany's worth of them.

    TFR collapsed under the Soviets:

    Every developed and industrialized country in the world has demographic transition in the 20th century. Well, a few much more advanced countries like France, Great Britiain and Germany, have stages of it already in the 19th century – even before the technology of contraception matches preferences of industrializing countries.

    Nowadays, this is just stable to any external changes. In recent decades, cohort fertility in Russia has been almost unchanging, and is just a little below of replacement for the generation of women who are at more childgiving ages in the 1980s.

    The USSR had slightly higher fertility rates than the most advanced European countries, but the change in fertility rates or demographic transition was simply a reflection of the successful economic development.

    After the collapse of the USSR, cohort fertility rates fall in a few years by 0,2-0,3 to 1,6, where they have likely not changed at all for 25 years, despite years of economic collapse and subsequent years of economic recovery. Fertility rates have likely been continuously at this same level since, regardless of economic vicissitudes.

    So the difference between the late-stage communism and capitalism – is a neglible 0,2-0,3 children fall. And between economic collapse in the 1990s, and economic growth in the 2000s – there is no change in real fertility. It is the “Zeitgest”.

    • Replies: @AP

    Every developed and industrialized country in the world has demographic transition in the 20th century
     
    Well, when Russia was rapidly industrializing from 1890-1915 it had a TFR of over 7. It's TFR actually increased in the beginning of this period. Its TFR during this time was much higher than that of pre-industrial Germany and United States (which was around 5 in the year 1800).

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1033102/fertility-rate-germany-1800-2020/

    Moreover, Germany's 5.0 TFR stayed in place until the year 1900, all through much of its industrialization. Russia could have kept its TFR at around 7 for another decade, at least.
    Secularization seems to have been the main culprit for TFR collapse.

    The USSR had slightly higher fertility rates than the most advanced European countries
     
    In 1970 Germany's TFR was 2.36 and Russia's was 2.02. After that Germany's collapsed.
  110. @AnonFromTN

    Without taking into account the extent of testing in each country this is a very dumb claim to make.
     
    My point exactly. FYI, in terms of coverage of the population with testing, the US is way behind SK and Singapore, and even behind Russia. LOL.

    US is currently exactly at the level of South Korea in testing per capita

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Yes. The difference is, SK started mass testing and tracing contacts from the get-go, whereas the US did not get to this point even now. The result: in SK there were 236 deaths per 51.6 million population (4.57 deaths per million), whereas in the US there were 43,006 reported deaths per 330 million population, which comes to 130.3 deaths per million. This is more than 28 times greater. This difference illustrates that everything must be done in time, otherwise it’s like lying across the tracks after the train has passed.
  111. @siberiancat
    US is currently exactly at the level of South Korea in testing per capita

    Yes. The difference is, SK started mass testing and tracing contacts from the get-go, whereas the US did not get to this point even now. The result: in SK there were 236 deaths per 51.6 million population (4.57 deaths per million), whereas in the US there were 43,006 reported deaths per 330 million population, which comes to 130.3 deaths per million. This is more than 28 times greater. This difference illustrates that everything must be done in time, otherwise it’s like lying across the tracks after the train has passed.

  112. @AP
    If language, culture, formation etc. don’t matter as much as time spent under Moscow recently, then Latvia and Estonia should be closer to Russia than to the West and closer to Russia than much of Ukraine is, because they were ruled from Moscow even longer than half of Ukraine was.

    If language, culture, formation etc. don’t matter as much as time spent under Moscow recently, then Latvia and Estonia should be closer to Russia than to the West and closer to Russia than much of Ukraine is, because they were ruled from Moscow even longer than half of Ukraine was.

    Not quite. My assumption is that the near past (the past generation or two, say) matters vastly more than what came before it*, and so it makes sense that the Baltic states, minus perhaps their Russian minorities, after 29 years of independence, should now be more “Western” (loosely put) than Russian. That they were part of Russia in the past matters very little.

    This same dynamic will play out in Ukraine, by the way, if it keeps its “Western” course another few decades. Its people will behave more and more and like the peoples of Germany, France and America, but from recent, not distant, history.

    * You can think of it as a heavily left-skewed distribution, with most of the “cultural mass” lying to the right (i.e. nearer the present time) and the left side — the “long tail” — representing the “cultural mass” of the distant past. Or put in plain English: the past thirty years matter far more than the thirty years that came before them, which in turn matter far more than the thirty years that came before them, and so on.

  113. @AP

    Hitler planned to murder 1/3 of all Ukrainians, send another 1/3 east of the Urals, and keep the remainining 1/3 as slaves under the planned German settlers. If you do — as I hope, and as the historic record shows — would that not make the Nazi-friendly line of the Banderaists an epic self-own
     
    I may be wrong, but the persons with whom I was discussing this seem to have been implying that Ukrainians experienced worse things from the West than from Moscow. The numbers of killed (among other factors) prove this claim wrong. Moreover, while the West has utterly rejected Nazism, Stalin enjoys significant popularity in Russia.

    While you are correct that the plans some Nazis had towards Ukraine, if implemented, were much worse than even what the Bolsheviks did to Ukraine, people didn’t actually live through them. In terms of actual experiences, Moscow killed about half a million more Ukrainians than did Berlin in the 20th century. And of course Ukrainians living in Austria or even Poland had it much better than those living under Moscow.

    You seem to imply that Bandera supported the Nazis unconditionally. He did not. He supported them at specific times when he viewed them as being better for him and for Ukraine. He worked with them in the beginning when they were helpful and before the extent of their murderousness towards Ukrainians was clear, and at the end when they were clearly no longer a threat but could still be useful to his cause.

    Bandera and his movement have horrible crimes to answer for (against not only Poles, but also against non-Banderist Ukrainians), but enabling the Nazi master plan against Ukrainians was not on of them.

    I may be wrong, but the persons with whom I was discussing this seem to have been implying that Ukrainians experienced worse things from the West than from Moscow. The numbers of killed (among other factors) prove this claim wrong.

    The claim that Bolshevism was worse for Ukrainians than Nazism is true in the sense that it lead to more dead bodies than Nazism, but it also missess the mark altogether. No serious analysis of Nazism can avoid the question of what the Nazis would have done to Ukraine if given free reign to carry out their plans, and as I wrote, the plan was crystal clear and would have resulted in the murder or deportation of tens of millions of Ukrainians. Also as I wrote, what stopped these millions of deaths from coming to pass was not the UIA — which were at worst Nazi collaborators and at best useful idiots (they would have been killed off in an instant had the Nazis won) — but the Red Army.

    Moreover, while the West has utterly rejected Nazism, Stalin enjoys significant popularity in Russia.

    This is true and unfortunate, but as our host would be quick to tell you, Stalin is even more popular in his homeland of Georgia, which Ukrainians have no ill feelings toward (at least no one I’ve ever met). These things aren’t strictly logical, then (nor should we expect them to be — people are people.)

    Bandera and his movement have horrible crimes to answer for (against not only Poles, but also against non-Banderist Ukrainians), but enabling the Nazi master plan against Ukrainians was not on of them.

    Again, I disagree with this (see above).

    • Replies: @AP

    The claim that Bolshevism was worse for Ukrainians than Nazism is true in the sense that it lead to more dead bodies than Nazism, but it also missess the mark altogether. No serious analysis of Nazism can avoid the question of what the Nazis would have done to Ukraine if given free reign to carry out their plans, and as I wrote, the plan was crystal clear and would have resulted in the murder or deportation of tens of millions of Ukrainians.
     
    I agree, which is why I had written elsewhere that the wrong side won World War I but the right side won World War II.

    The person I was arguing with claimed that the Nazis killed more Ukrainians in reality, rather than potentially. He was wrong.

    Also as I wrote, what stopped these millions of deaths from coming to pass was not the UIA — which were at worst Nazi collaborators and at best useful idiots (they would have been killed off in an instant had the Nazis won) — but the Red Army.
     
    It's not so simple with UPA:

    1. In the beginning Nazi plans for Ukraine were not apparent. Thus there was nothing wrong with allying with them. The chance of being given a deal as was given to Slovaks or Croats was non-trivial.

    2. When it became apparent, UPA turned against the Nazis. The thousands of Ukrainian police melted into the forests (where they slaughtered Poles but also attacked Germans and Soviet partisans when they persecuted Ukrainian villagers):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army#Germany

    Thus they were neither useful idiots nor collaborators.

    3. When it became clear the Germans were losing and had no chance of winning the war (and thus, of implementing their genocidal plans), UPA once again allied with the Germans, in order to slow the Soviet advance (remember, Soviets were deadlier to Ukrainians than Germans were) and forestall the brutal Soviet occupation. The killed Soviet General Vatutin, commander of the Ukrainian Front. UPA was operating under the mistaken assumption that World War II would end as did World war I, with the two powers terribly weakened. They were hoping the Germans would have bled the Soviets more than they did.
  114. @AP

    Outside of emergency cases, there’s no rule of law or order to speak of.
     
    Must be why Ukraine's homicide rate is lower than Russia's, as of 2017:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

    Or are you implying that Ukrainians are naturally superior and don't need any government to avoid killing each other at a lower rate than Russians do?

    Everybody would be dying of ebola, but the shamans found a way to blame it on the white man, and now it’s a personal struggle that every warlord feels compelled to fight in.

    That’s the impression I’m getting here.
     
    A video of your idea of "Africa", the provincial oblast capital Vynnytsia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=AFB6fbDsVK0&feature=emb_logo

    Its population is lower than Russia’s as well.
    Don’t care about the propaganda much, Cameroon’s space program is powerful too, and they’re a step from economically dwarfing the US and China combined. At least if you ask a Cameroonian off the street, if you can find a street that is.

    And the hard proof that ukraine isn’t africa is two ethots showing off tourist spots. North korea has a bunch of those, even Cameroon probably has a few alleys they cleaned and put a few exotic food stalls to show off to the unaware gringo.
    The part where the starving asian helot and the retarded african tribesman surpass the advanced european not!russian is that they understand a few clean streets and a statue in a big city don’t mean everybody is living in luxury.

    • Replies: @AP

    And the hard proof that ukraine isn’t africa is two ethots showing off tourist spots.
     
    Actually the point of the video was to show the city streets, which it does, not some tourist spots. That city is not a tourist city.

    One can think of Africa in your little mind, or see with one's own eyes what this "Africa" looks like.

    The part where the starving asian helot and the retarded african tribesman
     
    Ukraine has a per capita GDP PPP of $10,130. Camaroon has one $4,099 and North Korea of $1,700

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    Ukraine has the same per capita GDP PPP as Belarus had in 2005 (in current dollars).

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=BY

    You probably weren't born then, but Belarus in 2005 was not Africa, either.
  115. @EliteCommInc.
    Every time I hear or read a story about the US needing aid from anyone,

    the Ukraine . . . or any other state


    I cringe. Just rings as something deeply and fundamentally amiss with our leadership.

    All NATO countries are as bad as the USA. Australia and New Zealand delayed the outbreak because they had Trump-like restrictions on entry and the admittedly inadequate EU levels of testing and contact tracing. When we reached 4 times the Chinese total infected rate per million, we switched to Chinese tactics: more testing and social distancing. That’s the only reason we have done 10 times better than the USA. Ape the winners like the USA is now doing. When all you’ve got is a low tech response, China is better than the USA. How can anybody be surprised? When they were much poorer, they could organise large teams of Africans to build railways and bridges. Now, I’d be surprised if Chinese engineers could do that. [email protected]

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Have you been on a Chinese high speed train? Do you know that the Chinese built the railway link Golmund to Lhassa (1,184 Km in the most difficult terrain) in five years, whereas it took 20 years to build the link between Chatswood and Epping (13 Km)? Mate?
  116. @AP

    you can’t just back pedal any statements as “lol I was being retarded ironically.”
     
    For a normal person (I think the term is "neurotypical") the smiley face at least should have been a dead giveaway. So no backpedaling.

    However while the take is extreme it is not "retarded." The Russian state does use and treat its people outside Russia badly, for its own purposes (as I mentioned before, see: Donbas).

    However while the take is extreme it is not “retarded.” The Russian state does use and treat its people outside Russia badly, for its own purposes (as I mentioned before, see: Donbas).

    Like Kiev regime controlled Ukraine has noticeably treating them any better, which explains why the people there aren’t so gung ho about that political grouping.

    Never mind that no nation (Russia included) recognizes Donbass as being a part of Russia. Data indicates that there’re more ethnic Ukrainians there than Russians. The Russian government presence in Donbass is quite limited. Countries the world over typically consider the concerns of citizens within their actual boundaries first before others elsewhere.

  117. @Donald A Thomson
    All NATO countries are as bad as the USA. Australia and New Zealand delayed the outbreak because they had Trump-like restrictions on entry and the admittedly inadequate EU levels of testing and contact tracing. When we reached 4 times the Chinese total infected rate per million, we switched to Chinese tactics: more testing and social distancing. That's the only reason we have done 10 times better than the USA. Ape the winners like the USA is now doing. When all you've got is a low tech response, China is better than the USA. How can anybody be surprised? When they were much poorer, they could organise large teams of Africans to build railways and bridges. Now, I'd be surprised if Chinese engineers could do that. [email protected]

    Have you been on a Chinese high speed train? Do you know that the Chinese built the railway link Golmund to Lhassa (1,184 Km in the most difficult terrain) in five years, whereas it took 20 years to build the link between Chatswood and Epping (13 Km)? Mate?

    • Replies: @Donald A Thomson
    The Chinese are more advanced than the USA in high speed trains and 5G telecommunications equipment where Huawei holds important patents. That is becoming true in manufacturing in general but the USA still dominates in large aircraft and drugs and medical research. China will concentrate on COVID-19 and may produce a vaccine before the USA. If somebody produces a new drug to treat it, it will probably be the USA. In science in general, China is catching up quickly. I admit my post could easily be read as decrying Chinese technical ability. I meant to stress that, at present, the US strength in medical science gives them no advantage. The greater Chinese organising ability and effort using what actually exists at present gives them an advantage just as they used to have in building railways in Africa employing large numbers of African labourers. I expect that, at present. China would have to bring in Chinese workers experienced in using machinery. If they had no machinery, are there still Chinese engineers who could do the job anyway? As tools improve, people lose the skills that were used previously. They can relearn them but they're reluctant to do so. That's the old-fashioned way. [email protected]
    , @Dmitry

    Chinese high speed train
     
    It depends a bit what you mean by "Chinese". They are trains which have many components built in China, and they are for Chinese use. Perhaps they are built and used very efficiently in China, and that can be impressive. On the other hand, the technology used in those trains is not from China. It is imported and purchased from Japan and Western Europe through various agreements.

    So if you might be impressed by the supercars used in Saudi Arabia, etc. I also think they build highways more efficiently in the Gulf than in countries like Great Britain. Still I find more interesting the country where the technology was developed.

  118. @Adûnâi
    > "...evil, demented, dumb, Galicia CIA smuggled clowns..."

    Galicians are no different than any other Slav capitalists. They do not bother caring about the survival of their blood. They do not care about their women whoring themselves to Negroes. They have no aspirations to take the means of production back from the claws of the bourgeois Jews.

    I would have admired Galicians if they wanted to ethnically cleanse the Donbass. If the tales are true, my metaphorical uncles murdered 70k-100k Poles in cold blood. But is their deed remembered and praised? No.

    Instead, they are calling the Soviet Union patriarchal and thus evil! Because they are busy taking every latest kind of bullshit from Amerikwa and growing it in our soil!

    Should I be surprised when my countrymen believe in literal magic and witchcraft? The USSR has failed!

    http://archive.vn/ruGpX
    • Replies: @A123
    The #1 threat to Poland is Germany. Russia is collaborating with the German aggressor via projects like NordStream 2.

    One has to question if this is an actual General, because he is clearly 100% detached from reality. If he is active duty he needs to be immediately pulled on grounds of disassociative mental illness before he gets a bunch of Polish kids killed for no reason.

    PEACE 😷

  119. @Mikhail
    https://theduran.com/polish-general-encourages-polish-soldiers-to-fight-against-american-occupation/

    The #1 threat to Poland is Germany. Russia is collaborating with the German aggressor via projects like NordStream 2.

    One has to question if this is an actual General, because he is clearly 100% detached from reality. If he is active duty he needs to be immediately pulled on grounds of disassociative mental illness before he gets a bunch of Polish kids killed for no reason.

    PEACE 😷

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    How is he less reasonable than Duda and Tusk?

    He's arguing against Poland becoming an anti-Russian stooge. That article first appeared at a Polish military venue, indicating that he's not alone in his views.
    , @Rattus Norwegius
    Why would Poland join NATO if they don't want to be allied with Germany?
  120. @Autists Anonymous Rehab Camp Fugitive
    Its population is lower than Russia's as well.
    Don't care about the propaganda much, Cameroon's space program is powerful too, and they're a step from economically dwarfing the US and China combined. At least if you ask a Cameroonian off the street, if you can find a street that is.

    And the hard proof that ukraine isn't africa is two ethots showing off tourist spots. North korea has a bunch of those, even Cameroon probably has a few alleys they cleaned and put a few exotic food stalls to show off to the unaware gringo.
    The part where the starving asian helot and the retarded african tribesman surpass the advanced european not!russian is that they understand a few clean streets and a statue in a big city don't mean everybody is living in luxury.

    And the hard proof that ukraine isn’t africa is two ethots showing off tourist spots.

    Actually the point of the video was to show the city streets, which it does, not some tourist spots. That city is not a tourist city.

    One can think of Africa in your little mind, or see with one’s own eyes what this “Africa” looks like.

    The part where the starving asian helot and the retarded african tribesman

    Ukraine has a per capita GDP PPP of $10,130. Camaroon has one $4,099 and North Korea of $1,700

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    Ukraine has the same per capita GDP PPP as Belarus had in 2005 (in current dollars).

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=BY

    You probably weren’t born then, but Belarus in 2005 was not Africa, either.

    • Replies: @Autists Anonymous Rehab Camp Fugitive
    So you're comparing yourself to a 2005 communist economy? That's one lofty goal to aspire to.
  121. @Swedish Family

    I may be wrong, but the persons with whom I was discussing this seem to have been implying that Ukrainians experienced worse things from the West than from Moscow. The numbers of killed (among other factors) prove this claim wrong.
     
    The claim that Bolshevism was worse for Ukrainians than Nazism is true in the sense that it lead to more dead bodies than Nazism, but it also missess the mark altogether. No serious analysis of Nazism can avoid the question of what the Nazis would have done to Ukraine if given free reign to carry out their plans, and as I wrote, the plan was crystal clear and would have resulted in the murder or deportation of tens of millions of Ukrainians. Also as I wrote, what stopped these millions of deaths from coming to pass was not the UIA -- which were at worst Nazi collaborators and at best useful idiots (they would have been killed off in an instant had the Nazis won) -- but the Red Army.

    Moreover, while the West has utterly rejected Nazism, Stalin enjoys significant popularity in Russia.
     
    This is true and unfortunate, but as our host would be quick to tell you, Stalin is even more popular in his homeland of Georgia, which Ukrainians have no ill feelings toward (at least no one I've ever met). These things aren't strictly logical, then (nor should we expect them to be -- people are people.)

    Bandera and his movement have horrible crimes to answer for (against not only Poles, but also against non-Banderist Ukrainians), but enabling the Nazi master plan against Ukrainians was not on of them.
     
    Again, I disagree with this (see above).

    The claim that Bolshevism was worse for Ukrainians than Nazism is true in the sense that it lead to more dead bodies than Nazism, but it also missess the mark altogether. No serious analysis of Nazism can avoid the question of what the Nazis would have done to Ukraine if given free reign to carry out their plans, and as I wrote, the plan was crystal clear and would have resulted in the murder or deportation of tens of millions of Ukrainians.

    I agree, which is why I had written elsewhere that the wrong side won World War I but the right side won World War II.

    The person I was arguing with claimed that the Nazis killed more Ukrainians in reality, rather than potentially. He was wrong.

    Also as I wrote, what stopped these millions of deaths from coming to pass was not the UIA — which were at worst Nazi collaborators and at best useful idiots (they would have been killed off in an instant had the Nazis won) — but the Red Army.

    It’s not so simple with UPA:

    1. In the beginning Nazi plans for Ukraine were not apparent. Thus there was nothing wrong with allying with them. The chance of being given a deal as was given to Slovaks or Croats was non-trivial.

    2. When it became apparent, UPA turned against the Nazis. The thousands of Ukrainian police melted into the forests (where they slaughtered Poles but also attacked Germans and Soviet partisans when they persecuted Ukrainian villagers):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army#Germany

    Thus they were neither useful idiots nor collaborators.

    3. When it became clear the Germans were losing and had no chance of winning the war (and thus, of implementing their genocidal plans), UPA once again allied with the Germans, in order to slow the Soviet advance (remember, Soviets were deadlier to Ukrainians than Germans were) and forestall the brutal Soviet occupation. The killed Soviet General Vatutin, commander of the Ukrainian Front. UPA was operating under the mistaken assumption that World War II would end as did World war I, with the two powers terribly weakened. They were hoping the Germans would have bled the Soviets more than they did.

  122. @Dmitry

    TFR collapsed under the Soviets:
     
    Every developed and industrialized country in the world has demographic transition in the 20th century. Well, a few much more advanced countries like France, Great Britiain and Germany, have stages of it already in the 19th century - even before the technology of contraception matches preferences of industrializing countries.

    Nowadays, this is just stable to any external changes. In recent decades, cohort fertility in Russia has been almost unchanging, and is just a little below of replacement for the generation of women who are at more childgiving ages in the 1980s.

    The USSR had slightly higher fertility rates than the most advanced European countries, but the change in fertility rates or demographic transition was simply a reflection of the successful economic development.

    After the collapse of the USSR, cohort fertility rates fall in a few years by 0,2-0,3 to 1,6, where they have likely not changed at all for 25 years, despite years of economic collapse and subsequent years of economic recovery. Fertility rates have likely been continuously at this same level since, regardless of economic vicissitudes.

    So the difference between the late-stage communism and capitalism - is a neglible 0,2-0,3 children fall. And between economic collapse in the 1990s, and economic growth in the 2000s - there is no change in real fertility. It is the "Zeitgest".

    Every developed and industrialized country in the world has demographic transition in the 20th century

    Well, when Russia was rapidly industrializing from 1890-1915 it had a TFR of over 7. It’s TFR actually increased in the beginning of this period. Its TFR during this time was much higher than that of pre-industrial Germany and United States (which was around 5 in the year 1800).

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1033102/fertility-rate-germany-1800-2020/

    Moreover, Germany’s 5.0 TFR stayed in place until the year 1900, all through much of its industrialization. Russia could have kept its TFR at around 7 for another decade, at least.
    Secularization seems to have been the main culprit for TFR collapse.

    The USSR had slightly higher fertility rates than the most advanced European countries

    In 1970 Germany’s TFR was 2.36 and Russia’s was 2.02. After that Germany’s collapsed.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    when Russia was rapidly industrializing
     
    Look at your use of progressive tense - "industrializing".

    But no, fertility rate in Russia was around 4 by 1915 and falling at a faster rate than at any time after. And average income levels and living standard, were still equivalent of a third world country.


    Germany’s TFR was 2.36 and Russia’s was 2.02
     
    Why would you talk about TFR, when discussing the past? TFR is an irrelevant statistic for talking about the past. It only useful as a very inaccurate forecasting method, whic you use while you wait for data of actual fertility rate, which can be calculated after women are past reproductive age. Germany's actual fertility rate has been equal to or even below replacement for 90-100 years now (recall replacement rate was higher than 2,1 in the first half of the 20th century)

    https://i.imgur.com/e7JHMIS.jpg

  123. @Seraphim
    Have you been on a Chinese high speed train? Do you know that the Chinese built the railway link Golmund to Lhassa (1,184 Km in the most difficult terrain) in five years, whereas it took 20 years to build the link between Chatswood and Epping (13 Km)? Mate?

    The Chinese are more advanced than the USA in high speed trains and 5G telecommunications equipment where Huawei holds important patents. That is becoming true in manufacturing in general but the USA still dominates in large aircraft and drugs and medical research. China will concentrate on COVID-19 and may produce a vaccine before the USA. If somebody produces a new drug to treat it, it will probably be the USA. In science in general, China is catching up quickly. I admit my post could easily be read as decrying Chinese technical ability. I meant to stress that, at present, the US strength in medical science gives them no advantage. The greater Chinese organising ability and effort using what actually exists at present gives them an advantage just as they used to have in building railways in Africa employing large numbers of African labourers. I expect that, at present. China would have to bring in Chinese workers experienced in using machinery. If they had no machinery, are there still Chinese engineers who could do the job anyway? As tools improve, people lose the skills that were used previously. They can relearn them but they’re reluctant to do so. That’s the old-fashioned way. [email protected]

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    When you say that USA 'dominates in large aircraft', you are not referring to Boeing, are you?
  124. @Donald A Thomson
    The Chinese are more advanced than the USA in high speed trains and 5G telecommunications equipment where Huawei holds important patents. That is becoming true in manufacturing in general but the USA still dominates in large aircraft and drugs and medical research. China will concentrate on COVID-19 and may produce a vaccine before the USA. If somebody produces a new drug to treat it, it will probably be the USA. In science in general, China is catching up quickly. I admit my post could easily be read as decrying Chinese technical ability. I meant to stress that, at present, the US strength in medical science gives them no advantage. The greater Chinese organising ability and effort using what actually exists at present gives them an advantage just as they used to have in building railways in Africa employing large numbers of African labourers. I expect that, at present. China would have to bring in Chinese workers experienced in using machinery. If they had no machinery, are there still Chinese engineers who could do the job anyway? As tools improve, people lose the skills that were used previously. They can relearn them but they're reluctant to do so. That's the old-fashioned way. [email protected]

    When you say that USA ‘dominates in large aircraft’, you are not referring to Boeing, are you?

  125. @AP

    And the hard proof that ukraine isn’t africa is two ethots showing off tourist spots.
     
    Actually the point of the video was to show the city streets, which it does, not some tourist spots. That city is not a tourist city.

    One can think of Africa in your little mind, or see with one's own eyes what this "Africa" looks like.

    The part where the starving asian helot and the retarded african tribesman
     
    Ukraine has a per capita GDP PPP of $10,130. Camaroon has one $4,099 and North Korea of $1,700

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    Ukraine has the same per capita GDP PPP as Belarus had in 2005 (in current dollars).

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=BY

    You probably weren't born then, but Belarus in 2005 was not Africa, either.

    So you’re comparing yourself to a 2005 communist economy? That’s one lofty goal to aspire to.

    • Replies: @AP
    Who said the current GDP per capital was a goal? Is reading hard?
  126. @A123
    The #1 threat to Poland is Germany. Russia is collaborating with the German aggressor via projects like NordStream 2.

    One has to question if this is an actual General, because he is clearly 100% detached from reality. If he is active duty he needs to be immediately pulled on grounds of disassociative mental illness before he gets a bunch of Polish kids killed for no reason.

    PEACE 😷

    How is he less reasonable than Duda and Tusk?

    He’s arguing against Poland becoming an anti-Russian stooge. That article first appeared at a Polish military venue, indicating that he’s not alone in his views.

    • Replies: @A123

    How is he less reasonable than Duda and Tusk?

    He’s arguing against Poland becoming an anti-Russian stooge.
     

    He is arguing FOR Poland becoming an emasculated SJW Globalist slave nation under Merkel's rule. As long as Putin serves Merkel's political agenda, Poland must oppose Russia. And, Poland needs the U.S. to stay free from the Dark Heart of Europe.

    Putin would be better off supporting Christian Populists against the SJW Globalists. Hopefully, he will dump Merkel and change sides.

    PEACE 😷

  127. @Autists Anonymous Rehab Camp Fugitive
    So you're comparing yourself to a 2005 communist economy? That's one lofty goal to aspire to.

    Who said the current GDP per capital was a goal? Is reading hard?

  128. @Mikhail
    How is he less reasonable than Duda and Tusk?

    He's arguing against Poland becoming an anti-Russian stooge. That article first appeared at a Polish military venue, indicating that he's not alone in his views.

    How is he less reasonable than Duda and Tusk?

    He’s arguing against Poland becoming an anti-Russian stooge.

    He is arguing FOR Poland becoming an emasculated SJW Globalist slave nation under Merkel’s rule. As long as Putin serves Merkel’s political agenda, Poland must oppose Russia. And, Poland needs the U.S. to stay free from the Dark Heart of Europe.

    Putin would be better off supporting Christian Populists against the SJW Globalists. Hopefully, he will dump Merkel and change sides.

    PEACE 😷

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    Hmm.
  129. @A123
    The #1 threat to Poland is Germany. Russia is collaborating with the German aggressor via projects like NordStream 2.

    One has to question if this is an actual General, because he is clearly 100% detached from reality. If he is active duty he needs to be immediately pulled on grounds of disassociative mental illness before he gets a bunch of Polish kids killed for no reason.

    PEACE 😷

    Why would Poland join NATO if they don’t want to be allied with Germany?

    • Replies: @A123

    Why would Poland join NATO if they don’t want to be allied with Germany?
     
    NATO = US + UK, Germany adds little. Also at the time Poland and Hungary joined, they wanted assurances that a reborn Warsaw Pact would not return.

    With modern day dynamics:

    -- If Poland could be a member of something without Germany they would likely jump at the chance.
    -- If Russia could be convinced to drop Mutti Merkel, there could be a genuine Christian Atlantic Treaty Alliance among Russia, U.S., Poland, U.K., and Hungary.

    The time of anti-Christian Globalism is coming to and end. Ultimately, the SJW Globalist propaganda that keeps Christian America and Christian Russia at loggerheads will fail.

    PEACE 😷
  130. @A123

    How is he less reasonable than Duda and Tusk?

    He’s arguing against Poland becoming an anti-Russian stooge.
     

    He is arguing FOR Poland becoming an emasculated SJW Globalist slave nation under Merkel's rule. As long as Putin serves Merkel's political agenda, Poland must oppose Russia. And, Poland needs the U.S. to stay free from the Dark Heart of Europe.

    Putin would be better off supporting Christian Populists against the SJW Globalists. Hopefully, he will dump Merkel and change sides.

    PEACE 😷

    Hmm.

  131. @Rattus Norwegius
    Why would Poland join NATO if they don't want to be allied with Germany?

    Why would Poland join NATO if they don’t want to be allied with Germany?

    NATO = US + UK, Germany adds little. Also at the time Poland and Hungary joined, they wanted assurances that a reborn Warsaw Pact would not return.

    With modern day dynamics:

    — If Poland could be a member of something without Germany they would likely jump at the chance.
    — If Russia could be convinced to drop Mutti Merkel, there could be a genuine Christian Atlantic Treaty Alliance among Russia, U.S., Poland, U.K., and Hungary.

    The time of anti-Christian Globalism is coming to and end. Ultimately, the SJW Globalist propaganda that keeps Christian America and Christian Russia at loggerheads will fail.

    PEACE 😷

  132. @AP

    Every developed and industrialized country in the world has demographic transition in the 20th century
     
    Well, when Russia was rapidly industrializing from 1890-1915 it had a TFR of over 7. It's TFR actually increased in the beginning of this period. Its TFR during this time was much higher than that of pre-industrial Germany and United States (which was around 5 in the year 1800).

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1033102/fertility-rate-germany-1800-2020/

    Moreover, Germany's 5.0 TFR stayed in place until the year 1900, all through much of its industrialization. Russia could have kept its TFR at around 7 for another decade, at least.
    Secularization seems to have been the main culprit for TFR collapse.

    The USSR had slightly higher fertility rates than the most advanced European countries
     
    In 1970 Germany's TFR was 2.36 and Russia's was 2.02. After that Germany's collapsed.

    when Russia was rapidly industrializing

    Look at your use of progressive tense – “industrializing”.

    But no, fertility rate in Russia was around 4 by 1915 and falling at a faster rate than at any time after. And average income levels and living standard, were still equivalent of a third world country.

    Germany’s TFR was 2.36 and Russia’s was 2.02

    Why would you talk about TFR, when discussing the past? TFR is an irrelevant statistic for talking about the past. It only useful as a very inaccurate forecasting method, whic you use while you wait for data of actual fertility rate, which can be calculated after women are past reproductive age. Germany’s actual fertility rate has been equal to or even below replacement for 90-100 years now (recall replacement rate was higher than 2,1 in the first half of the 20th century)

    • Replies: @AP

    But no, fertility rate in Russia was around 4 by 1915 and falling at a faster rate than at any time after
     
    There was a war in 1915. It was 7.18 in 1910 - a slight increase from 1905. It peaked in 1900.
    Russia's peak fertility rate thus coincided with massive industrialization. During this time, Russia became the world's fourth largest steel producer.
    , @AP

    Why would you talk about TFR, when discussing the past? TFR is an irrelevant statistic for talking about the past.
     
    I'll also add that Russia's birth rate collapsed under the Communists much more severely than elsewhere.

    Russia:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1038013/crude-birth-rate-russia-1840-2020/

    USA:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1037156/crude-birth-rate-us-1800-2020/

    Setting aside the anomaly of World War II, you had a decline in the Russian birth rate from 43 to 26 in 20 years (1930-1950).

    It took America 60 years to see such a decline - from 1865 to 1925.

    So Soviets managed to crash their country's birth rate three times faster than did the Americans.

    As for other countries:

    UK - 85 years. From 1820 to 1905.

    Germany - stable birth rate of 31-39 throughout its industrialization, indeed from 1800-1910. Germany had a higher birth rate in 1900 than in 1855. Its birth rate collapsed during World War I, and never recovered under Weimar or World War II:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1037245/crude-birth-rate-germany-1800-2020/

    And, if we recall, Russia's birth rate had been very stable and very high from 1890-1910, when it was industrializing rapidly.

    It looks like when countries are conservative monarchies they can industrialize without collapsing their birth rate (Germany prior to World War I, and Russia under Nicholas). And communism collapses it faster than does a democracy.

  133. @Seraphim
    Have you been on a Chinese high speed train? Do you know that the Chinese built the railway link Golmund to Lhassa (1,184 Km in the most difficult terrain) in five years, whereas it took 20 years to build the link between Chatswood and Epping (13 Km)? Mate?

    Chinese high speed train

    It depends a bit what you mean by “Chinese”. They are trains which have many components built in China, and they are for Chinese use. Perhaps they are built and used very efficiently in China, and that can be impressive. On the other hand, the technology used in those trains is not from China. It is imported and purchased from Japan and Western Europe through various agreements.

    So if you might be impressed by the supercars used in Saudi Arabia, etc. I also think they build highways more efficiently in the Gulf than in countries like Great Britain. Still I find more interesting the country where the technology was developed.

  134. @EliteCommInc.
    Every time I hear or read a story about the US needing aid from anyone,

    the Ukraine . . . or any other state


    I cringe. Just rings as something deeply and fundamentally amiss with our leadership.

    Some of this is more psychology, rather than capacity. Ukraine had an advantage of being one of the more scared and panicked countries, partly because of they know their own weakness. But panicking is perhaps not a bad thing for epidemics. Ukraine quarantine early, and made everyone wear paper masks. Whether Ukraine’s panicking is successful or not to slowing the epidemic, we will probably know in a few weeks.

    In the UK, they had an opposite psychological reaction, and saw it as some kind of chance to test their healthcare system. Russia – somewhere between the two points. And, America – I’m not sure anyone can make sense of their policies.

  135. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    when Russia was rapidly industrializing
     
    Look at your use of progressive tense - "industrializing".

    But no, fertility rate in Russia was around 4 by 1915 and falling at a faster rate than at any time after. And average income levels and living standard, were still equivalent of a third world country.


    Germany’s TFR was 2.36 and Russia’s was 2.02
     
    Why would you talk about TFR, when discussing the past? TFR is an irrelevant statistic for talking about the past. It only useful as a very inaccurate forecasting method, whic you use while you wait for data of actual fertility rate, which can be calculated after women are past reproductive age. Germany's actual fertility rate has been equal to or even below replacement for 90-100 years now (recall replacement rate was higher than 2,1 in the first half of the 20th century)

    https://i.imgur.com/e7JHMIS.jpg

    But no, fertility rate in Russia was around 4 by 1915 and falling at a faster rate than at any time after

    There was a war in 1915. It was 7.18 in 1910 – a slight increase from 1905. It peaked in 1900.
    Russia’s peak fertility rate thus coincided with massive industrialization. During this time, Russia became the world’s fourth largest steel producer.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    It was 7.18 in 1910
     
    For women who are entering their fertile years in 1910, the fertility rate is between 4-5.

    Demographic transition was determined in this time by urbanisation, and this train has departed from the end of the 19th century - and will be completed with industrialization.


    Russia’s peak fertility rate thus coincided with massive
     
    Fertility rates are rapidly beginning to fall. The first cohort of women who will experience rapid fertility decline are born in the 1880s.

    During this time, Russia became the world’s fourth largest steel producer.
     
    In 1915, GDP had been increasing rapidly - the Russian Empire, particularly Western parts, has recently been one of the world's fastest growing economies. But the majority of the population still receives subsistence income, and then per capita incomes were lower than in India (now the world's second main steel producer) are today.
  136. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    when Russia was rapidly industrializing
     
    Look at your use of progressive tense - "industrializing".

    But no, fertility rate in Russia was around 4 by 1915 and falling at a faster rate than at any time after. And average income levels and living standard, were still equivalent of a third world country.


    Germany’s TFR was 2.36 and Russia’s was 2.02
     
    Why would you talk about TFR, when discussing the past? TFR is an irrelevant statistic for talking about the past. It only useful as a very inaccurate forecasting method, whic you use while you wait for data of actual fertility rate, which can be calculated after women are past reproductive age. Germany's actual fertility rate has been equal to or even below replacement for 90-100 years now (recall replacement rate was higher than 2,1 in the first half of the 20th century)

    https://i.imgur.com/e7JHMIS.jpg

    Why would you talk about TFR, when discussing the past? TFR is an irrelevant statistic for talking about the past.

    I’ll also add that Russia’s birth rate collapsed under the Communists much more severely than elsewhere.

    Russia:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1038013/crude-birth-rate-russia-1840-2020/

    USA:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1037156/crude-birth-rate-us-1800-2020/

    Setting aside the anomaly of World War II, you had a decline in the Russian birth rate from 43 to 26 in 20 years (1930-1950).

    It took America 60 years to see such a decline – from 1865 to 1925.

    So Soviets managed to crash their country’s birth rate three times faster than did the Americans.

    As for other countries:

    UK – 85 years. From 1820 to 1905.

    Germany – stable birth rate of 31-39 throughout its industrialization, indeed from 1800-1910. Germany had a higher birth rate in 1900 than in 1855. Its birth rate collapsed during World War I, and never recovered under Weimar or World War II:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1037245/crude-birth-rate-germany-1800-2020/

    And, if we recall, Russia’s birth rate had been very stable and very high from 1890-1910, when it was industrializing rapidly.

    It looks like when countries are conservative monarchies they can industrialize without collapsing their birth rate (Germany prior to World War I, and Russia under Nicholas). And communism collapses it faster than does a democracy.

  137. @AP

    But no, fertility rate in Russia was around 4 by 1915 and falling at a faster rate than at any time after
     
    There was a war in 1915. It was 7.18 in 1910 - a slight increase from 1905. It peaked in 1900.
    Russia's peak fertility rate thus coincided with massive industrialization. During this time, Russia became the world's fourth largest steel producer.

    It was 7.18 in 1910

    For women who are entering their fertile years in 1910, the fertility rate is between 4-5.

    Demographic transition was determined in this time by urbanisation, and this train has departed from the end of the 19th century – and will be completed with industrialization.

    Russia’s peak fertility rate thus coincided with massive

    Fertility rates are rapidly beginning to fall. The first cohort of women who will experience rapid fertility decline are born in the 1880s.

    During this time, Russia became the world’s fourth largest steel producer.

    In 1915, GDP had been increasing rapidly – the Russian Empire, particularly Western parts, has recently been one of the world’s fastest growing economies. But the majority of the population still receives subsistence income, and then per capita incomes were lower than in India (now the world’s second main steel producer) are today.

    • Replies: @AP

    But the majority of the population still receives subsistence income, and then per capita incomes were lower than in India (now the world’s second main steel producer) are today.
     
    I don't know India, well, but it also seems to be industrializing without secularizing, as did Russia. So decline in fertility is slower than was the Soviet crash.
  138. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    It was 7.18 in 1910
     
    For women who are entering their fertile years in 1910, the fertility rate is between 4-5.

    Demographic transition was determined in this time by urbanisation, and this train has departed from the end of the 19th century - and will be completed with industrialization.


    Russia’s peak fertility rate thus coincided with massive
     
    Fertility rates are rapidly beginning to fall. The first cohort of women who will experience rapid fertility decline are born in the 1880s.

    During this time, Russia became the world’s fourth largest steel producer.
     
    In 1915, GDP had been increasing rapidly - the Russian Empire, particularly Western parts, has recently been one of the world's fastest growing economies. But the majority of the population still receives subsistence income, and then per capita incomes were lower than in India (now the world's second main steel producer) are today.

    But the majority of the population still receives subsistence income, and then per capita incomes were lower than in India (now the world’s second main steel producer) are today.

    I don’t know India, well, but it also seems to be industrializing without secularizing, as did Russia. So decline in fertility is slower than was the Soviet crash.

  139. @AP

    Outside of emergency cases, there’s no rule of law or order to speak of.
     
    Must be why Ukraine's homicide rate is lower than Russia's, as of 2017:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

    Or are you implying that Ukrainians are naturally superior and don't need any government to avoid killing each other at a lower rate than Russians do?

    Everybody would be dying of ebola, but the shamans found a way to blame it on the white man, and now it’s a personal struggle that every warlord feels compelled to fight in.

    That’s the impression I’m getting here.
     
    A video of your idea of "Africa", the provincial oblast capital Vynnytsia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=AFB6fbDsVK0&feature=emb_logo

    Must be why Ukraine’s homicide rate is lower than Russia’s as of 2017.

    That is officially the dumbest comment written in the history if the Internet. LOL.

    9/11 attacks, Oklahoma bombings, jealous lover murders, assassinations, drunk fights or arguments that lead to murder..all terrible acts of homicide… but have NO connection to “rule of law” you absurd cretin.

    Drunk Kiev cops playing a stupid shooting game, killing an nearby 5 year old boy (shot dead in head) them and their superiors then claiming the boy died falling on the pavement… and subsequently covering up the murder…… Now that IS no rule of law. LOL

    Rule of law refers to function of the courts, law enforcement agencies, politicians and businesses working fluidly and consistently in one coherent system –

    It’s why lack of “rule of law” isn’t an argument used against America…. even though there has always been a much higher murder rate in US than in Europe and even Eastern Europe admitted into EU – close to zero.
    Premeditated violent acts of evil or fatal flashes of anger, obviously, have nothing to do with “rule of law”.
    Apart from Russia being lower than Ukraine anyway – how dumb is it to not consider Russia’s multi-ethnic regions , areas of extreme cold. and centre for all ex USSR ethnic mafias making it stupid to make that type of comparison!

    As for the rest of your idiotic arguments- that wikipedia is full of BS. Russia is at rate between 5-6. A miraculous achievement. Ukrop number is a fake that no Ukrainian actually believes- not least because rate involves the denominator being Ukraines official population… and the fake state is FULL of mass death of its population, one of the worst in the world – so they can attach any cause of death in such a rotten system.
    The funniest thing is that because you are a fraud /fantasist…. you are insanely incompetent too…. Absolutely nobody in Banderastan, nobody, claims other than that there is an abject lack of rule of law in the country. This is because personal experience of people living and visiting dominates ahead of fantasies from 10000km away and sick wikipedia self-Edits that you link to. Nobody in ukraine claims they have anything approaching superior “rule of law” to Russia – they just won’t admit that RF is.

    Bribery to the traffic cops is a million times less in RF, same with education, health, business and courts.

    Here is ‘africa’, provincial City of Vinnytsia

    HAHAHA- has any imbecile EVER been convinced by your clueless, dumb, fake video links? Is there the snow covered streets misrepresented as “clean” LOL. Vinnytsia is a dump. I am refusing to watch a time-wasting BS video that can tell with certainly

    1.Shows the opposite of what you claim
    2. Sun out, young women dressed with mentality of African tribe = “not Africa” in your laughable BS logic
    3.entirely meant to timewaste
    4.amusingly the only thing likely to indicate sophistication…. would be any still standing Soviet buildings!
    5. With that inadequate effort you have had to spend 10 hours (in English lol) going through even worse filth confirming the opposite of your BS
    Of course Banderastan is Africa because:

    1. Abysmal level of income in the population
    2. Abysmal roads
    3 consumption
    4. Lack of any rule of law
    5.mass corruption
    6. Large numbers of certain diseases
    7.wasting of Western money
    8. Abysmal levels of governance
    9.Infrastructure
    10. Emmigration
    11. Even the worst African States have higher levels of satisfaction

    • Replies: @AP
    Lol, you were so triggered that more than a week after my post you wrote two long posts of nonsense trying to prove that a country at about the same level as Russia was in the early 2000s is “Africa.”
  140. @AP

    Outside of emergency cases, there’s no rule of law or order to speak of.
     
    Must be why Ukraine's homicide rate is lower than Russia's, as of 2017:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

    Or are you implying that Ukrainians are naturally superior and don't need any government to avoid killing each other at a lower rate than Russians do?

    Everybody would be dying of ebola, but the shamans found a way to blame it on the white man, and now it’s a personal struggle that every warlord feels compelled to fight in.

    That’s the impression I’m getting here.
     
    A video of your idea of "Africa", the provincial oblast capital Vynnytsia:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=AFB6fbDsVK0&feature=emb_logo

    Bi

    Must be why Ukraine’s homicide rate is lower than Russia’s as of 2017.

    That is officially the dumbest comment written in the history if the Internet. LOL.

    9/11 attacks, Oklahoma bombings, jealous lover murders, assassinations, drunk fights or arguments that lead to murder..all terrible acts of homicide… but have NO connection to “rule of law” you absurd cretin.

    Drunk Kiev cops playing a stupid shooting game, killing an nearby 5 year old boy (shot dead in head) them and their superiors then claiming the boy died falling on the pavement… and subsequently covering up the murder…… Now that IS no rule of law. LOL

    Rule of law refers to function of the courts, law enforcement agencies, politicians and businesses working fluidly and consistently in one coherent system –

    It’s why lack of “rule of law” isn’t an argument used against America…. even though there has always been a much higher murder rate in US than in Europe and even Eastern Europe admitted into EU – close to zero.
    Premeditated violent acts of evil or fatal flashes of anger, obviously, have nothing to do with “rule of law”.
    Apart from Russia being lower than Ukraine anyway – how dumb is it to not consider Russia’s multi-ethnic regions , areas of extreme cold. and centre for all ex USSR ethnic mafias making it stupid to make that type of comparison!

    As for the rest of your dumb arguments- that wikipedia is full of BS. Russia is at rate between 5-6. A miraculous achievement. Ukrop number is a fake that no Ukrainian actually believes- not least because rate involves the denominator being Ukraines official population… and the fake state is FULL of mass death of its population, one of the worst in the world – so they can attach any cause of death in such a rotten system.
    The funniest thing is that because you are a fraud /fantasist…. you are insanely incompetent too…. Absolutely nobody in Banderastan, nobody, claims other than that there is an abject lack of rule of law in the country. This is because personal experience of people living and visiting dominates ahead of fantasies from 10000km away and sick wikipedia self-Edits that you link to. Nobody in ukraine claims they have anything approaching superior “rule of law” to Russia – they just won’t admit that RF is.

    Bribery to the traffic cops is a million times less in RF, same with education, health, business and courts.

    Here is ‘africa’, provincial City of Vinnytsia

    HAHAHA- has any imbecile EVER been convinced by your clueless, dumb, fake video links? Is there the snow covered streets misrepresented as “clean” LOL. Vinnytsia is a dump. I am refusing to watch a time-wasting BS video that can tell with certainly

    1.Shows the opposite of what you claim
    2. Sun out, young women dressed with mentality of African tribe = “not Africa” in your laughable BS logic
    3.entirely meant to timewaste
    4.amusingly the only thing likely to indicate sophistication…. would be any still standing Soviet buildings!
    5. With that inadequate effort you have had to spend 10 hours (in English lol) going through even worse filth confirming the opposite of your BS

    Of course Banderastan is Africa because:

    1. Abysmal level of income in the population
    2. Abysmal roads
    3 consumption
    4. Lack of any rule of law
    5.mass corruption
    6. Large numbers of certain diseases
    7.wasting of Western money
    8. Abysmal levels of governance
    9.Infrastructure
    10. Emmigration
    11. Even the worst African States have higher levels of satisfaction

    You are many obscene things, liar on knowing language, visits, “job” as medic….. Until your nonsense about “rule of law” something Americans frequently talk about–I had never considered before that you were not American…..

  141. My mistake – delete 142 Karlin if you want

  142. @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    Must be why Ukraine's homicide rate is lower than Russia's as of 2017.
     
    That is officially the dumbest comment written in the history if the Internet. LOL.

    9/11 attacks, Oklahoma bombings, jealous lover murders, assassinations, drunk fights or arguments that lead to murder..all terrible acts of homicide... but have NO connection to "rule of law" you absurd cretin.

    Drunk Kiev cops playing a stupid shooting game, killing an nearby 5 year old boy (shot dead in head) them and their superiors then claiming the boy died falling on the pavement... and subsequently covering up the murder...... Now that IS no rule of law. LOL

    Rule of law refers to function of the courts, law enforcement agencies, politicians and businesses working fluidly and consistently in one coherent system -

    It's why lack of "rule of law" isn't an argument used against America.... even though there has always been a much higher murder rate in US than in Europe and even Eastern Europe admitted into EU - close to zero.
    Premeditated violent acts of evil or fatal flashes of anger, obviously, have nothing to do with "rule of law".
    Apart from Russia being lower than Ukraine anyway - how dumb is it to not consider Russia's multi-ethnic regions , areas of extreme cold. and centre for all ex USSR ethnic mafias making it stupid to make that type of comparison!

    As for the rest of your idiotic arguments- that wikipedia is full of BS. Russia is at rate between 5-6. A miraculous achievement. Ukrop number is a fake that no Ukrainian actually believes- not least because rate involves the denominator being Ukraines official population... and the fake state is FULL of mass death of its population, one of the worst in the world - so they can attach any cause of death in such a rotten system.
    The funniest thing is that because you are a fraud /fantasist.... you are insanely incompetent too.... Absolutely nobody in Banderastan, nobody, claims other than that there is an abject lack of rule of law in the country. This is because personal experience of people living and visiting dominates ahead of fantasies from 10000km away and sick wikipedia self-Edits that you link to. Nobody in ukraine claims they have anything approaching superior "rule of law" to Russia - they just won't admit that RF is.


    Bribery to the traffic cops is a million times less in RF, same with education, health, business and courts.

    Here is 'africa', provincial City of Vinnytsia
     
    HAHAHA- has any imbecile EVER been convinced by your clueless, dumb, fake video links? Is there the snow covered streets misrepresented as "clean" LOL. Vinnytsia is a dump. I am refusing to watch a time-wasting BS video that can tell with certainly

    1.Shows the opposite of what you claim
    2. Sun out, young women dressed with mentality of African tribe = "not Africa" in your laughable BS logic
    3.entirely meant to timewaste
    4.amusingly the only thing likely to indicate sophistication.... would be any still standing Soviet buildings!
    5. With that inadequate effort you have had to spend 10 hours (in English lol) going through even worse filth confirming the opposite of your BS
    Of course Banderastan is Africa because:

    1. Abysmal level of income in the population
    2. Abysmal roads
    3 consumption
    4. Lack of any rule of law
    5.mass corruption
    6. Large numbers of certain diseases
    7.wasting of Western money
    8. Abysmal levels of governance
    9.Infrastructure
    10. Emmigration
    11. Even the worst African States have higher levels of satisfaction

    Lol, you were so triggered that more than a week after my post you wrote two long posts of nonsense trying to prove that a country at about the same level as Russia was in the early 2000s is “Africa.”

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