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It seems to be the one *major* country where the more intelligent – on average, and adjusting for the east/west gradient – vote for the “nationalist” candidate, Poroshenko.

And just to be clear, he has for all intents and purposes captured the nationalist niche, however unlikely. His slogan: “Army, Language, Faith.” Meanwhile, Zelensky talks of cutting down the time to start up a business to half an hour.

Apart from a few minor exceptions – the blogger Kireev noted Moldova, Latvia, and Lithuania – this would seem to make it unique amongst the bigger countries.

  • Lower IQ whites vote for Republicans, and especially for Trump (even if this effect is significantly confounded at the national level by greater minority support for Democrats).
  • Lower IQ French vote for Marine Le Pen.
  • Lower IQ Germans vote for the AfD, higher IQ ones vote for the Greens.
  • Lower IQ Britons vote for UKIP and Brexit.
  • Lower IQ Czechs vote for Zeman.
  • Lower IQ Russians vote for Putin and Zhirinovsky, while higher IQ ones vote for liberals.
  • Even Brazil is not an exception, despite even greater racial confounding than in the US (e.g. 64% of atheists supported Haddad).

Now let’s look at the Ukraine, or rather Kiev in particular, to adjust for regional patterns (e.g. country bumpkins from Ivano-Frankovsk are not going to be particularly intelligent, despite voting for Poroshenko; though for that matter, they support him less than do Galicians, and especially Lvov).

In Kiev, Zelensky got 27%, vs. 26% for Poroshenko, 13% for Tymoshenko, and 6% for Boyko.

Here is a map of Poroshenko [blue] vs. Zelensky [green] in first round of 2019 elections via Ukrainian data blogger @polottenchegg.

As one can see, it includes the central areas, more expensive areas.

This can also be confirmed at looking at results from particular polling stations, as Alexander Kireev did.

Poroshenko won outright in Kiev’s most central district, which includes the Maidan of Independence. Only 15% for Zelensky vs. 30% for Poroshenko.

In one prison, Zelensky led with 45%, with Tymoshenko at 31% and Poroshenko at just 3%. (Indeed, Tymoshenko is very popular with cons, like Zhirinovsky is in Russia).

Universities are popular with young people, and Zelensky is MUCH more popular with young people (e.g. one poll: 57% support amongst 18-20 y/o’s, just 22% amongst 50-59 y/o’s). So we should expect to see him dominate in university districts, even in Kiev (where he won overall, if narrowly). But we don’t: In the polling stations serving the (less prestigious) Kiev National University, he only got around ~35% in those districts, relative to Poroshenko’s ~30%. Zelensky did do rather better in the Igor Sikorsky Kyiv Polytechnic Institute: Around 48% to Poroshenko’s 20%.

Finally, just as French expats vote overwhelmingly against the National Front, like Russian expats vote against Putin, like American expats vote against Trump – so Ukrainian expats overwhelmingly supported Poroshenko.

Map of worldwide Ukrainian voting in 2019 elections (first round) via Seva Bashirov. Poroshenko >50% [dark red], Poroshenko wins with <50% [red], Zelensky wins [green], Boyko wins [blue].

The two countries where the pro-Russian Boyko won (in the traditional Party of Regions way of being pro-Russian such as asking for lower gas prices) are Moldova and Estonia. He’d have probably won had Ukrainians in Russia been allowed to vote as well. This can be ascribed to ethno-cultural preferences for Russia. However, there is a clear contrast between Ukrainians in places such as Poland, Czechia, and Slovakia (young, lower educated Gastarbeiters), who voted for Zelensky, and Ukrainians in places such as Germany, the UK, or China (older, better educated expats and professionals).

Hilariously, it looks like the one type of nationalism that intelligent whites will support is Ukrainian svidomism.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Elections, Nationalism, Svidomy, Ukraine 
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  1. Ludwig says:

    Before Russiagate in the US, I too was under the impression that those who fell for the simplistic nationalistic rhetoric of the GOP was because they were less educated and unable to separate emotional arguments from rational ones.

    Then Russiagate happened. And it turned out the majority of intellectuals – many of them from top universities like Harvard – actually believed that Trump was a Putin puppet. A majority of Democrats actually believed that Russia manipulated the votes – something even the rabid anti-Russian intelligence agencies did not conclude. Many of my acquaintances in academia (including IBM TJ Watson and the like) bought the whole Trump as Putin-puppet theory.

    This to me has me one of the most revealing aspects of Russiagate: that partisan hatred trumps education and logic. It’s easy to feel smug about rural rubes falling for Moon Landing hoaxes and the like. It’s less easy to realize the same dynamics apply to those who went through years of formal education and working in technical fields.

    But Russiagate proved that partisan hatred can easily revert man to a primal being bereft of reason and rationality.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    , @Thorfinnsson
  2. It seems to be the one *major* country where the more intelligent – on average, and adjusting for the east/west gradient – vote for the “nationalist” candidate

    Brazil? Though that is seriously confounded by race.

    Reminds me of strongly anti-immigration, pro-Iraq War, pro-Bush Romney doing best in high-IQ areas in the 2008 and 2012 GOP primaries.

    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/dec/02/mitt-romney/does-newt-gingrich-support-amnesty-mitt-romney-say/

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/11/romney.huckabee.immigration/index.html

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Dmitry
  3. AP says:

    More data supporting your post:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=rus&cat=reports&id=850&page=1

    The electorates with the highest % of voters who have a higher education are Smeshko (former SBU head, nationalist) – 54% of his voters have higher education, Poroshenko – 50%, and Koshulinsky of the united Far Right – 49%. Only 17% of Lyashko voters had a higher education. His support peaked among those who didn’t finish secondary school.

    This does not mean that Poroshenko won the educated vote – he lost among all categories, including the educated. But the nationalist electorate was the most educated.

    • Replies: @LatW
  4. Worth looking at the results in places like Scotland and Catalonia to see if this is truly unique.

    My take is that Ukrainian “nationalism” is FUCK YOU DAD! fake nationalism (since the Ukraine is a fake and gay country) like what you see in the petty nationalisms of the United Kingdom and Spain. This attracts people who are ordinarily liberasts.

  5. Also, Taiwanese nationalism (another example of fake and gay nationalism) is more popular, iirc, among the well-educated.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  6. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    My take is that Ukrainian “nationalism” is FUCK YOU DAD! fake nationalism

    Your take is wrong.

    like what you see in the petty nationalisms of the United Kingdom and Spain.

    Ukrainian nationalists beat up some gay parade:

    https://www.rt.com/news/444311-ukraine-lgbt-nationalists-assault/

    Would Catalonian ones do that?

    Russia’s RT hilariously takes the side of the gays here.

  7. songbird says:
    @E. Harding

    Reminds me of strongly anti-immigration, pro-Iraq War, pro-Bush Romney doing best in high-IQ areas in the 2008 and 2012 GOP primaries.

    Romney was a RINO – he was the governor of MA – so you would expect him do do better in RINO states. Any man that has illegals doing his landscaping probably should not be considered strongly anti-immigrant, though I do recall Ann Coulter did support him based partly on that issue.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Thorfinnsson
  8. @AP

    I really, truly wish you people luck in your apparent attempt to be anti-gay and pro-NATO.

    • Replies: @E
    , @Thorfinnsson
  9. AP says:
    @songbird

    Romney was a RINO

    He’s a pretty traditional “country club Republican” who were once popular in the Northeast.

  10. “Romney was a RINO”

    He, untethered from any and all concerns about re-election, has a voting record 24th (out of 53 GOP Senators) in terms of bipartisanship so far this year. Not a RINO, just a political chameleon and overall slimeball (he would have voted far differently had he been Senator from MA).

  11. Dreadilk says:

    It seems large part of high IQ populations tends to be very parasitic. All these voting patterns whether Dems in US or “nationalists” in Ukraine are voting for handouts.

  12. Beckow says:

    High IQ, more educated, big-city residents benefit – or dream that they can benefit – from the globalist, pro-Western policies. In some countries it maps into ‘nationalism’, e.g. Ukraine, Latvia, Catalonia, Scotland. But in most places it tends to be anti-nationalist, e.g. US, UK, Germany, Czechia, etc…Many of those better kind of people don’t particularly like their hoi polloi cousins.

    Self-interest trumps ideology, there is no surprise there. Most globalist people who don’t care for the LGBT excesses or migrants think that those are minor issues, so they disregard them. What they dream about is their well-deserved globalist stuff: visas, internships, dollars and euros, buffets and Hollywood snapshots.

    The Western Ukrainian nationalism is only a subset of the overall Western loving nationalism. There is an almost desperate desire in Kiev and Galicia to be accepted by the West, and further north-west to the West the better.

    It is a submissive nationalism of people with little self-respect who would like to be a part of something better. In their case it was first the Habsburgs, then Germany in WWII, and recently loving Washington with an abandon not seen since Papua natives stared at the sky waiting for the cargo to drop. They also invent myths, blue-blood ancestors, skimp on details of history, and in general lack a rational core. That’s why they will inevitably lose. It could be the clown Zelinsky who will end their dream, or maybe we will have to wait a few more years, but submissive nationalism is an oxymoron. And oxymorons don’t work – they are internally conflicted.

    • Replies: @AP
  13. Dmitry says:
    @E. Harding

    Romney was the most cognitive candidate for American president, we have observed

    In the 2012, President’s debate. Romney was discussing concepts like the importance of diversity of state laws, to enable America to operate as an experiment for discovering the best form of living.

    The difference between him and Trump, was that Romney did not lower his message enough to attract enough of the stupid people in what are described as “swing states”.

  14. AP says:
    @Beckow

    High IQ, more educated, big-city residents benefit – or dream that they can benefit – from the globalist, pro-Western policies

    Ukrainian nationalists – anti-Muslim and attack gypsies and gays.

    Many of those better kind of people don’t particularly like their hoi polloi cousins.

    Ukrainian nationalists – love peasants and glorify them.

    You are wrong as always.

    It is a submissive nationalism

    And yet your people, not Ukrainian nationalists, are the ones infamous for submission – to Nazis, Soviets, whomever.

    You are now eager to submit to Russia. But Ukraine stands in the way, you need the border to be shifted westward. You miss Sovok.

    In their case it was first the Habsburgs

    Provided concrete benefits for Ukrainians.

    They also invent myths

    Your myth about your people being better without Hapsburgs was the funniest one of all.

    blue-blood ancestors

    Um, by dad is still alive, and I knew my grandparents. A small piece of our old lands is still owned by us. So no myths. Ukrainian nationalists don’t like that stuff, however. They glorify peasants. Nationalist nobles were even hiding their origins.

    But you always get things wrong, Beckow. You and Anon from TN are the team.

    • Replies: @DreadIlk
    , @Mr. Hack
    , @Beckow
  15. Dmitry says:

    This is what some Poroshenko supporters in Ukraine were saying on the forums – I read them boasting that higher income and smarter people are supporting Poroshenko.

    But according to a survey, the educational difference is not very wide. 52,4% of Poroshenko voters with higher education, compared to 46% of Zelensky supporters.

    There’s a large generational difference though – with Zelensky much more popular with young people.
    https://nv.ua/ukraine/politics/chey-elektorat-samyy-obrazovannyy-10-vyvodov-o-pervom-ture-vyborov-ot-ukrainskih-sociologov-50015481.html

  16. DreadIlk says:
    @AP

    You are a meme. When we talk about high IQ and nationalists we don’t mean the same people even if there is overlap.

  17. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Ukrainian nationalists don’t like that stuff, however. They glorify peasants. Nationalist nobles were even hiding their origins.

    Sounds like Skoropadskyism (the Hetmanite movement) is totally dead, something I’ve thought for a very long time. Is it some sort of latent socialism that keeps ‘nationalist nobles’ from hiding their origins? I don’t think that in 2019 there could be many around, anyway?…

  18. fnn says:
    @Dmitry

    In the 2012, President’s debate. Romney was discussing concepts like the importance of diversity of state laws, to enable America to operate as an experiment for discovering the best form of living.

    Back during Romney’s youth, discussion of the states as “laboratories of democracy” was standard fare in high school civics classes. I doubt that’s true today, except maybe when it to comes to drugs and immigration enforcement.

  19. E says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    It works just fine for the Gulf Monarchies. It won’t be an issue unless Ukraine geopolitically does something that displeases someone like Max Boot.

  20. Beckow says:
    @AP

    I wrote some of those points as a loosely structured IQ test, you provided the answers one would expect. I am starting to think that you lack even minimal sense of humor.

    The nationalism that dislikes aristocracy used to be referred to as ‘folk movement’ (or Volk among its most enthusiastic adherents in a big country in central Europe in the 1930’s).

    About the LGBT/migrants – I mentioned that among pro-Western nationalists in eastern Europe (Ukraine, Baltics, Poland) those issues get dismissed as not important. When you point out to them that Western globalist liberalism will insist on LGBT and migrants all around, they stick their head in the sand and refuse to think. That’s what I mean by its inherent oxymoron quality – they are internally conflicted: they love the West, but pretend that he Western pathologies will not impact them. Eventually they will have to choose. By now it is obvious that West comes with the liberal-progressive baggage, it is compulsory.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @LatW
  21. R-Unit says:

    Even Brazil is not an exception, despite even greater racial confounding than in the US (e.g. 64% of atheists supported Haddad).

    According to your own link…

    Education: People with primary education favor Haddad by 54%, while HS and college grads favor Bolsonaro by 60% and 61%, respectively.
    Socio-economic status: The poor support Haddad by 56%, while the middle classes and rich favor Bolsonaro by well over 60%.

    So while Haddad might have won the handful of atheists, it seems like Bolsonaro won higher IQ voters if we go off of income and education.

    It seems that, if true, the more educated public is simply more in line with the international US-centered media. In all countries except Ukraine, the nationalists are bad, except in Ukraine where they are good.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  22. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Dmitry

    On foreign policy, Romney doesn’t have a foreign policy that appears better than Obama and Trump.

    Something especially phony about his back and forth stances towards Trump.

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @Thorfinnsson
  23. AP says:
    @Beckow

    I wrote some of those points as a loosely structured IQ test

    So now you claim that when you are wrong it is deliberate.

    When you point out to them that Western globalist liberalism will insist on LGBT and migrants all around, they stick their head in the sand and refuse to think

    They are well aware of that and do not need it pointed out. So you are wrong as usual.

    they love the West, but pretend that he Western pathologies will not impact them.

    They mock the far west. You are too ignorant to understand that. The west they love is some place like Poland, which is relatively free of pathologies.

    • Replies: @216
    , @Beckow
    , @Thorfinnsson
  24. 216 says:
    @AP

    They mock the far west. You are too ignorant to understand that. The west they love is some place like Poland, which is relatively free of pathologies.

    ?

    It would stand to reason that a large number of younger Ukrainians want to follow the path that Poles and other Eastern Euros took, to work in pozzed Western Europe.

    If the US had rubber stamped TPS for Ukrainians on the basis of “war refugees” (some pols want this for Venezuelans), several million probably would have come here.

    To really be anti-poz means adopting Iranian-style solutions, and then accepting the sacrifices as the price of sovereignty.

  25. Why are we talking about voting? Voting does nothing whatsoever. The Jews will run Ukraine as they please.

  26. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …The west they love is some place like Poland, which is relatively free of pathologies.

    Well no. Their love for the West and being a part of the West – they talk about it endlessly – is definitely not about Poland. Actually Poland is not generally considered a part of the West in Western Europe or America.

    Ukrainian nationalism is confused: they want the West, declare themselves to be ‘Europe‘ (meaning really the ‘West’), want to join every Western organization – and at the same time they pretend that the Western pathologies, the Western core way of life that is today a progressive liberalism with open borders and multi-racial society, is not what they want.

    If Kiev ever gets to the point of negotiating with Brussels about EU, they will be dictated a set of compulsory liberal policies as a precondition. You say that you are aware of it, but what is the plan? How are they going to handle this? Ukraine is in a weak negotiating position, whatever Merkel, Macron and Brussels say will have to be done. None of this has been thought through. Or maybe the Ukrainian nationalists are really not all that traditionally European and want the shiny stuff more than anything else. Ready and willing to sell out.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    , @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  27. LatW says:
    @Beckow

    That’s not entirely true. Latvian nationalists fought tooth and nail against the Istanbul convention, as a result it wasn’t ratified. They joined the coalition with the specific caveat that they will vote against the pro-LGBT and against the Jewish restitution. They were able to limit permanent residence permits and payments to refugees. They are very vocal about these issues and have occasionally sided with traditionalist Russophones. They support Visegrad. They point out the difference between Schuman’s Europe and that of Kalergi. Many voted against the EU. They have always supported conscription and are themselves members of militia. If each is focused on himself, Balto-centric and Ukraino-centric, there won’t be need to choose east or west, everyone must fix their own house first.

    I do agree with you about the medieval myths. The nationalists, too, even if they romanticize the country, they romanticize the independent homesteader ideal and they know that the city – country dichotomy is not accurate. There were always Balts in the city, there were Latvian Zunfts, and recently a large Latvian 16th century grave site was uncovered downtown. I agree with you on that narrative (I saw you had a back and forth with AP on another thread).

    On topic: there were no real Western style progressive parties in the Baltics and probably Ukraine. They appeared very recently and have a small following among the artsy types.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  28. LatW says:
    @AP

    Smeshko was a great candidate who did great despite of not being backed by big money. A missed chance for Ukraine.

  29. @R-Unit

    Because whites are far more educated than pardos and mulattos. Adjust for that and it would no longer be true.

    • Replies: @R-Unit
  30. Mikel says:
    @Beckow

    You say that you are aware of it, but what is the plan?

    I think that the plan is very clear by now. They would do the same they have done with the Western demands of putting an end to endemic corruption. Promise to comply and pretend that they are making unrelenting progress while corruption remains as rampant as ever. And the West will not really care. As long as the BBC or Le Monde can show some picture of the annual LGBT parade in Kiev, it doesn’t much matter if participants are beaten up in the evening after the show. It’s not that much about corruption or LGBT rights. It’s about having that country aligned with us against the Big Enemy to its North.

    In any case, everybody but the most enthusiastic Ukrainian nationalists knows that negotiations between Brussels and Kiev to join the EU are eons away. So there’s no need to articulate any plan for that event.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Beckow
  31. Medvedev says:

    People with lower IQ and blue collar in US, Germany, UK are directly impacted by wonders of diversity. In the meantime, more liberal and affluent Whites can hide behind gated communities, afford to pay for private schools etc.
    In general liberal affluent people (either liberals in the US or pro-Poroshenko people in Ukraine) tend to be conformists.

  32. Medvedev says:

    1. Poroshenko gets higher than average support both among nationalistic and liberal people. Doesn’t mean nationalist equals liberal and vise versa.
    2. Current mainstream media, corporate world and politics in the West resemble echo chambers who will oust anyone (like Damore) who dares do disagree with DIVERSITY/PC IDEOLOGY. If it is bad in the US, it is way worse in Canada, UK, France or Germany. Thus, people on top are overwhelmingly liberal or learn to hide their thoughts, and people to the right marginalized as ‘dumb low-IQ idiots’.
    3. Ukraine and Baltic states are among few countries, where person with nationalistic views can reach high position in society, advance his career and keep his views without *constant fear of repercussions.

    * – there is always a possibility that you’ll get into a hot water, just like an uber dumb SJW who commits a felony. But it doesn’t close the opportunity. Just like mad anti-White SJW hatred usually can keep her job or, in the worst case scenario, move to the greener pasture. In the meantime, White person who just dares to disagree will be labeled ‘White supremacist, homophobe, xenophobe etc’ and have career destroyed. Look at infamous example of Iryna Farion

    Also in another case an argument arose between her and a driver of Lviv public transportation (route #54).[10] When Farion asked the driver to turn off the music he refused, when she reminded the driver that there is a prohibition of the local authorities for musical accompaniment in public transportation the latter refused stating that does not care.[10] Some sources state that the driver accused Farion of excessive love for the Ukrainian language. Later the driver was fired, while the Russian speaking mass media was pointing also to the fact that the music was in Russian language

    Just like SJWs in Amurica, she pressures and harasses the driver. As a result the driver is fired and she is treated with impunity.

  33. melanf says:

    Russian expats vote against Putin

    In the last election, Russian expats voted for Putin (80% in Germany, 86% in Israel, etc.)

    • Agree: AnonFromTN
  34. @Thorfinnsson

    The Scottish Referendum demographics broke down quite strangely

    Scotland is odd though in the sense that many of the most intelligent Scots will live in London anyway
    There is also British unionism (nationalism) associated with solidarity with Ulster and opposition to Irish immigration in some working-class areas

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  35. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    You bring up some very excellent points about Ukraine’s infatuation with the West and the fact that its promoters seem to skirt the extreme leftist social issues that come hand in hand with the big prize of inclusion. Poland (and Hungary) of course don’t represent mainstream Western models of immigrant inclusion and wholesale acceptance of a promiscuous homosexual lifestyle – they are both abberations of the basic prototype (France and Germany). I suspect that a fierce war is being waged right now between these eastern recalcitrant models and their Brussels’ masters, that will be addressed more sternly when the Brexit issue has been resolved and left behind. What you seem to ignore is that Ukrainian aspirations to join the European club is motivated equally between perceived and real economic benefits and more traditional Ukrainian needs for independence from its former colonial masters in Russia, that have historically worked against its need to foster its own language and cultural aspirations. The Ukrainians are not really that much different in this respect from their Slovak neighbors, just to the west:

    This is the Achilles heel of European nationalism – we dig through history and don’t see it the same way. But what is the alternative? We cannot accept something that was fundamentally aimed against our culture, language, and national existence. There is also the reality that at the end we won. This is a hornets nest maybe better left alone.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  36. Bartolo says:

    Smart people vote for status quo parties (and liberalism is the status quo in the West) because (a) they do well under the current dispensation and don’t want any experiments and (b) because the press relentlessly tells everyone that nationalist and right-wing people are impecunious, ignorant losers, whereas the cool kids can only be left-wing globalists. Period.

  37. @E

    The Gulf Monarchies are rich. The Ukraine ain’t.

  38. @AP

    Also known as a RINO.

    A fine example would be the 1940 election when those once-popular liberal Northeastern Republicans helped nominate a man – Wendell Willkie – who was quite literally a Republican in name only.

    Been all downhill ever since then.

    They also went well and truly out of their way to purge some of the genuinely principled Republicans who were left in that region, such as Hamilton Fish.

    Now, it might be hard to think that the Northeastern (which mostly means New York) Republicans could sink to a lower level than 1940. But they did, in the form of Nelson Rockefeller’s death. Talk about coitus interruptus.

    • Replies: @E. Harding
  39. notanon says:

    It seems to be the one *major* country where the more intelligent – on average, and adjusting for the east/west gradient – vote for the “nationalist” candidate, Poroshenko.

    in the West the majority of upper middle class people are completely gas-lit by the media over the consequences of mass immigration.

    the people who know the truth are disproportionately blue collar because they’re the ones who disproportionately live with the consequences.

    Ukraine doesn’t have immigration driving nationalist sentiment at the bottom so it’s more top heavy.

  40. notanon says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    they’d be bigger fish in a smaller pond

    • Replies: @notanon
  41. @Dmitry

    The difference between him and Trump, was that Romney did not lower his message enough to attract enough of the stupid people in what are described as “swing states”.

    Wonkishness is fine once you’re in office. To surrender actual campaigning in favor of wonkishness before the election is an act of supreme hubris and stupidity.

    Besides, your “cognitive” Romney’s policies wouldn’t have helped those “stupid” swing state residents any more than Trump.

    Being a Mormon is a sign of cognitive failure at a certain level anyway, since reason dictates that man should follow proper religion. And it’s the only white man’s religion favored by the American empire, which just shows how fake it really is. Just like Mitt Romney himself.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  42. notanon says:
    @AP

    Would Catalonian ones do that?

    are the ones beating up the homosexuals the educated ones?

    • Replies: @AP
  43. Serrice says:

    I’ve always found that it comes down to the simple reality that intelligent people will vote for candidates that they perceive will expand their opportunities.

    Smart people know they’ll do well anywhere, and the more connected, liberal, and globalised the world is – the more opportunities to be successful they will have.

    Why vote for someone who harks back to an time of army, farms, smoky pubs, simplicity, and traditional values when you can vote for the guy who’ll continue allowing you to flit between universities, relationships, jobs, countries, etc at will?

    In Ukraine, Poroshenko perhaps represents that global integration and greater opportunity moreso than Zelensky.

    Of course, the same smart people don’t perceive the unsustainabilty of the system they support and the national/cultural decay it is causing, which will ultimately limit their opportunities.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @g2k
  44. notanon says:
    @notanon

    i don’t think it’s fake nationalism though – people trying to find the right size pond for their demos is part of nationalism whatever the motive imo.

    • Replies: @notanon
  45. @fnn

    The idea of states as “laboratories of democracy” worked before Roosevelt.

    Heck, it could still work, still does work, to some degree, after Roosevelt.

    Things are pretty depressing in this country – I can’t safely say “sodomy is for morons” in public, after all – but some of the basic core of federalism has survived for a surprisingly long time.

    But not for long, not for any real keeps, with a federal government so powerful, so backed up by the power of mass communication, that they can interfere with each and every state. The more “connected” (read: atomized) we are, and certainly the more “diverse,” we are, the more screwed we are. See: ‘Bowling Alone’ by Putnam. Also see: ‘After Tocqueville’ by Williamson.

    That’s not what people like Romney will tell you, though. If Romney is indeed “cognitive,” he knows that the power of capital is presently too big for the states to handle (see: Indiana’s RFRA law, North Carolina’s bathroom law). But he will still slavishly follow their party line even though it means the continued erosion of true “grassroots democracy.”

  46. notanon says:
    @Mikhail

    there’s a consistent pattern of the banking mafia promoting photogenic but sexually submissive puppets: Macron, Romney, Obama, Booker etc.

  47. @Dmitry

    Romney was the most cognitive candidate for American president, we have observed

    Romney is a roving bandit, in that sense it doesn’t matter how “cognitive” his proposals are, just like it doesn’t matter how well mannered Mormons are given that they are enforcers of the empire:

    And according to an analysis by the Wall Street Journal, this was far from an isolated incident. In fact, 22 percent of the companies in which Bain invested wound up either in bankruptcy or shutting their doors entirely, while Bain itself has made billions of dollars for its investors:

    The Wall Street Journal, aiming for a comprehensive assessment, examined 77 businesses Bain invested in while Mr. Romney led the firm from its 1984 start until early 1999, to see how they fared during Bain’s involvement and shortly afterward.

    Among the findings: 22% either filed for bankruptcy reorganization or closed their doors by the end of the eighth year after Bain first invested, sometimes with substantial job losses. An additional 8% ran into so much trouble that all of the money Bain invested was lost. […]

    The Journal analysis shows that in total, Bain produced about $2.5 billion in gains for its investors in the 77 deals, on about $1.1 billion invested. Overall, Bain recorded roughly 50% to 80% annual gains in this period, which experts said was among the best track records for buyout firms in that era.

    Adding insult to injury, Bain would hide its profits in tax havens, not even paying the rate it was supposed to on the profits it made laying off workers.

    https://thinkprogress.org/romneys-bain-capital-made-billions-while-bankrupting-nearly-one-quarter-of-the-companies-it-invested-c01fe0b637f/

    • Replies: @songbird
  48. @Thorfinnsson

    In addition, both Ukrainian candidates seem to be Jews, really hard to see any real “nationalism” in this situation.

    • Replies: @AP
  49. Hilariously, it looks like the one type of nationalism that intelligent whites will support is Ukrainian svidomism.

    Congratulations, Anatoly! Looks like you found your true calling in life. When are you moving to Ivano-Frankivsk?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  50. EldnahYm says:
    @Ludwig

    Intellectual types are often more susceptible to propaganda, as compared with the apathetic masses. This was one of the themes in Orwell’s 1984.

  51. @melanf

    Yes, but in the Far Abroad, still much lower than the national average: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/putin-president-of-londongrad/

  52. AP says:
    @notanon

    They are young people in urban Kiev and their organization is popular among students, so probably.

  53. AP says:
    @anonymous coward

    Poroshenko is not a Jew but your cluelessness is to be expected.

  54. @Curious Person

    We know that young people were much more excited about Scottish independence than younger people.

    Younger people also more likely to have degrees.

    So *adjusting for age*, it would appear that independence was more favored by people without degrees. Moreover, it was only in the most depressed areas of Scotland (e.g. most notably Glasgow) where independence won. This can’t have just been an age effect, because independence decisively lost in Edinburgh – a much nicer city than Glasgow.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @notanon
    , @Curious Person
  55. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Well no. Their love for the West and being a part of the West – they talk about it endlessly – is definitely not about Poland.

    You are clueless as usual. In polls Ukrainians admire Poland more than any other country. Belarus comes in second place. They don’t want to be another Germany or Sweden.

    Ukrainian nationalism is confused: they want the West, declare themselves to be ‘Europe‘ (meaning really the ‘West’), want to join every Western organization

    As usual, you lay your own problems onto others. You are the one who is confused.

    Poland is not trying to get out of NATO and the EU. Neither is Hungary. Yet they deny migrants.
    Are they confused in your mind?

    If Kiev ever gets to the point of negotiating with Brussels about EU, they will be dictated a set of compulsory liberal policies as a precondition. You say that you are aware of it, but what is the plan?

    This point is very far away and everyone knows it. By then who knows, things may change in the West. And if they do not, Mikel addressed this very well.

  56. @Felix Keverich

    Thanks for the compliment, but as I pointed out, if I was partial to svidomism, I would be moving to Lvov, not Ivano-Frankovsk.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  57. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    So *adjusting for age*, it would appear that independence was more favored by people without degrees. Moreover, it was only in the most depressed areas of Scotland (e.g. most notably Glasgow) where independence won. This can’t have just been an age effect, because independence decisively lost in Edinburgh – a much nicer city than Glasgow.

    Yes. And it’s what makes Ukraine different. In the West Lviv would be like Edinburgh, some pretty liberal SWPL city. But instead, it hosts a massive anti-gay march with priests marching in order, the cafes with hipster-looking people are decorated in red and black (one has a shooting range in the basement), summer camps in the woods feature guys with pony-tails playing guitars decorated with mosques being bombed, and most importantly despite appearances the lifestyle is very non-SWPL – people marry young, go to church, etc. A weird experience for some Westerners.

    Krakow has some of that effect too, but not as much.

  58. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Felix seems to be mixing up your non acceptance of Ukie myths where their ancestors were busy building the first pyramids in Egypt with your own ‘saner’ views of a future filled with factories being filled with minimum wage (and ununionized) ‘uplifted’ guerrillas working gratuitously around the clock for their benevolent masters. 🙂

    Besides, there’s plenty of Russian style svidomism too, so there’s really no need to consider moving to Ukraine.

  59. songbird says:
    @Hyperborean

    “Roving bandit” is a pretty good description of him. Just like Hillary moved to NY to become a senator, he moved to Utah to become one.

  60. @AP

    Obviously Ukie far-rightists can’t be accused of being pozzed.

    But what fraction of nationalists are they?

    There’s on article on a foreign language Wikipedia, either Russian or Ukrainian, describing some kind of alleged Russian ideology which claims the Russian state subscribes to the view that it has a special civilizational mission. Unfortunately I don’t recall the details, but since I believe you’re a Russian speaker you can probably find this. It struck me as having been written by a pozzed faggot.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  61. notanon says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Moreover, it was only in the most depressed areas of Scotland (e.g. most notably Glasgow) where independence won.

    There’s a sectarian element in Scottish politics (Catholic vs Protestant)(which is mostly about Irish ancestry) which can create counter-intuitive results if you don’t know about it. West Scotland, particularly Glasgow has a lot of that.

    The conflict between sectarian youth gangs is why Glasgow used to be one of the few places in western Europe there was a non-zero chance of being stabbed in the street by a white person who wasn’t mentally ill – Glasgow cops used to be a fearsome bunch as a result (no guns so they had to be).

  62. @E. Harding

    This one is especially embarrassing since the same Taiwanese “nationalists” are also opposed to conscription and defense spending.

    How do they expect to secure their desired independence? Shooting spitballs across the Strait?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  63. @Ludwig

    I think this lesson is obvious enough to all dissidents, particularly everyone who has discovered HBD and the various “pills” about women.

    More disturbing still is that facts are close to totally irrelevant. You can even force people to admit that what they believe is factually incorrect in some cases, yet they will still profess that these beliefs must be maintained because Reasons.

    The only reasonable conclusion from this is that we must to implement the Normiecide. The Six Million is only the beginning.

  64. @songbird

    Hypocrisy is the price of having standards.

    You can hire illegals to do things while still opposing illegal immigration.

    It’s not a good look for a politician of course since normies struggle mightily with the concept of acting in one’s own self-interest while supporting laws that would prevent it (normiecide NOW).

  65. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    NATO is a military alliance. The “Red Empire” doesn’t care about homo-sexuals.

    The US military certainly doesn’t pressure Poland and the Baltic states to worship homo-sexuals. That’s the Blue Empire (Foggy Bottom, Gayropean Jewnion, etc.).

    From a Ukrainian nationalist perspective participating in NATO but not the EU might be ideal. Though I think Ukie nationalists believe strong Intermarum influence within the EU itself is workable and desirable.

  66. notanon says:
    @notanon

    i don’t think it’s fake nationalism though

    to be clearer i don’t think it’s necessarily fake.

    i think what happens is politicians try to find the right sized pond for themselves to be a big fish in and in the process the underlying borders of a natural demos reveals itself by who is prepared to fight and die for it – or not.

    so time decides if it’s fake.

  67. @Dmitry

    As fnn stated, federalist propaganda is standard fare of the American civic religion. Federalism has long been more popular with conservatives in America as well since historically it has been the central government which has pushed liberalism onto the states. Liberals routinely claim that rhetoric about “states rights” is in fact coded racism, which is in some cases true. Not that there is anything wrong with racism, which is in fact objectively correct and should be supported by everyone.

    In addition to Trump’s skill at communicating with double digit IQ white voters, there’s the simple fact that Trump’s protectionist platform is beneficial to the Midwestern swing states which are economically described as the “Rustbelt”. The Rustbelt is the traditional center of American heavy industry and can be compared with Russian places like Chelyabinsk, Magnitogorsk, Ulyanovsk, Yekaterinburg, etc.

    This part of America has been heavily damaged by foreign trade. Other than total losers like like John “Rock Man” Kasich (aka Zog Gaysick) most Midwestern politicians have traditionally opposed “free trade”. Ohio’s populist Democratic Senator Sherrod Brown for instance has long been a critic of “free trade” for the simple reason that it has been damaging to his constituents.

    If Romney had promoted protectionism (instead of penning the op-ed Let Detroit Go Bankrupt in the Wall Street Journal he too would have done better in the Midwestern states that Trump won.

    Perhaps not as well for the reasons you cite, and running against an incumbent President is always more challenging which is why many ambitious Republicans chose not to run in 2012. Note that Jeb Bush and Donald Trump both chose not to run in 2012, though both were interested in the idea.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  68. @Thorfinnsson

    This topic once came up with a visiting Taiwanese person when I was in Berkeley. He opined that while few in his generation wanted to join China, in practice the entire conscript military would surrender as soon as the PLA landed.

    Sounds pretty honest, and plausible. (Ofc they have dropped conscription since then. Ironically, the professionals might actually fight, as they’d be selected for extra patriotism).

  69. @Mikhail

    R-Money is worse than both Obama and Trump on foreign policy.

    He labeled Russia as America’s “main geopolitical adversary” and criticized Obama for insufficient Russophobia (leading to Obama’s humorous rebuke about R-Money being stuck in the ’80s).

    What motivated R-Money’s traitorous anti-Trump op-ed a few months ago was Trump’s order to Mad Duck Mattis to withdraw from Syria (since successfully sabotaged by Fox Bolton and Mike “Jimmy John’s” Pompeo).

  70. @Anatoly Karlin

    They still have conscription, but only for four months. Makes you wonder why they even bother.

    The sad thing about Taiwan’s defense is that they actually could successfully defend themselves. Amphibious invasions are hard. Tanner Greer penned a good piece about this in Foreign Policy: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/25/taiwan-can-win-a-war-with-china/

  71. @Thorfinnsson

    Third Rome?

    Ironically, the more “based” Ukr nationalists tend to drift back into Russia’s cultural orbit: https://insomniacresurrected.com/2019/03/10/biletsky-the-leader-of-azov-once-said-ukraine-needs-a-confederacy-with-russia/

    Obviously not very relevant today. Might be so in another decade or two.

    Incidentally, I was recently at a talk by the ethnic Ukrainian Russian nationalist Chalenko. According to him, before Crimea, Russian nationalists used to some counterintuitively nice relationships with Galician neo-Habsburgists. Not with Banderists, because they want a *unitary* fascist Ukraine. But neo-Habsburg larpers are good allies of convenience because they also want to dismantle the Ukrainian entity so as to not to have to associate with Donbass sovoks and assorted riffraff. Obviously that became irrelevant after 2014, as they – for the first time – realized that getting the whole pie (or almost all of it) might just happen after all.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @AP
    , @Mikhail
  72. @AP

    Poland isn’t free from pathologies. Plenty of Western pickup artists live in Warsaw and Krakow.

    Roosh has lived in Poland (and the Ukraine), and Krauser routinely spends months living in Poland (and other locations in Eastern Europe).

    Guess why?

    Eastern Europe is just “backwards”. They have the same level of pathology as the West did circa 20 years ago.

    • Replies: @AP
  73. @Anatoly Karlin

    The problem for all Ukrainian nationalists is that while the Kremlin doesn’t agree with your views on the Ukraine, they and Russians generally seem to agree that the Ukraine is fake and gay. Thus the only acceptable relationship with the Ukraine to Moscow is one in which the Ukraine is a submissive client state like Belarus. Or better yet dubious statelets from frozen conflicts under Russian protection like Abkhazia.

    Given a sufficient period of Ukrainian independence this attitude could change. There was a time when most American leaders viewed Canada the same way Russian leaders view the Ukraine.

  74. anon[314] • Disclaimer says:

    Now let’s look at the Ukraine, or rather Kiev in particular, to adjust for regional patterns (e.g. country bumpkins from Ivano-Frankovsk are not going to be particularly intelligent….

    the author has quite a few prejudices

    his columns are tiresome

  75. songbird says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I think it would all be up to the navy and air force – if there was any fighting. Once they actually landed, nearly everyone would throw up their arms – and probably rationally so.

    My experience with Taiwanese-Americans, who perhaps don’t have skin in the game, is that they see it as being part of the same country.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  76. @songbird

    Amphibious invasions are hard.

    The PLA’s own conclusion is that it would need to defeat the RoC army within two weeks or the battle would be lost.

    Think about it.

    If you want to see what a failed amphibious invasion looks like, read up on the Dieppe Raid. Or Anzio (technically a victory but lol).

    • Replies: @songbird
  77. Dmitry says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Trump is clever politically – protectionism was the best strategy to win former Obama vote, in the swing states.

    That said, Trump is not cynical about the topic of protectionism, has talked about it for years (you can see 1980s Oprah video) and is correct in his strategy, if without an ability to explain why. It’s been known for centuries that protectionism and import substitution makes you poorer, other things equal. However, unilateral free-trade, is neither an adequate solution to realize mutual free-trade.

    In the current format, EU and China are highly protectionist – and trying to maximize the benefits of liberal American trade policy, while American politicians were talking about free-trade without ability or will (they were not going to use gunboats to open trade like the 19th century British Navy) to enforce it.

    Trump by threatening protectionism, increases his leverage to create better trade conditions for America, in relation to EU, China, Japan, et al.

    federalist propaganda is standard fare of the American civic religion.

    This is not the only interesting point Romney says in the discussion, which you can see below if you are bored enough.

    Romney’s answers are generally more intelligent and analytical for almost (I watched it more than a year ago, so there could be some exceptions) every question.

    Obama’s answers are some mix of emotional rhetoric and personal attacks, while Romney’s answers were at least sometimes targeted for a more intelligent section of the American population, which still exists. It is not surprising that he received the majority of male votes, while Obama was more popular with female votes.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  78. @Dmitry

    If there is a binary choice between free trade and autarky, then it is true that protectionism makes you poorer.

    It is not necessarily true otherwise.

    There have been many successful protectionist economic experiments, including the United States itself. George Washington made a point of wearing a badly-made American suit to his inauguration rather than one of his many fine British suits to emphasize the importance of developing an indigenous manufacturing sector. His Treasury Secretary and former aide de camp, Alexander Hamilton, famously presented his Report on Manufactures to Congress in 1791 recommending protectionism.

    Abraham Lincoln finally realized Hamilton’s vision and from 1861 to 1945 the United States was an officially protectionist nation. It was during this time that America became the largest and most technologically advanced economy in the entire world. Thanks to the vision of Alexander Hamilton, America surpassed Britain and buried the Axis Powers.

    England was a protectionist nation from the reign of King Henry VII until the ministry of Sir Robert Peel. Even Adam Smith, doyen of libertarian economics, praised the Navigation Acts as creating Britain’s leading role in shipping and shipbuilding.

    Friedrich List, wondering how Germany could strengthen its economy, noted that half of the manufactured goods then consumed in Germany were supplied by Great Britain. He mused that had it not been for the prior English policy of protection, probably the Hansards would still be plying their trade at the Steel Yard and supplying Flemish textiles to British consumers. His recommendations for protectionism were ultimately adopted by Bismarck in 1879, and Germany went on to develop into Europe’s greatest economy.

    Intelligent protectionism is comparable to investment. One foregoes immediate consumption in the present to create more production in the future. It can create industries which otherwise would not exist. There is of course much unintelligent protectionism, and indeed such protectionism is unfortunately the rule.

    It should also be noted that even if the claims of the free traders are true, it does not follow from that that free trade is the most intelligent policy. Remember that free traders claim that free trade makes everyone better off. That is not a desirable objective. The goal is for you to be rich and everyone else to be poor. This is why I hate the American Empire so much, which created the conditions needed for Western Europe and Japan to become almost as rich as us.

    In reading Adam Tooze’s excellent book about the Nazi economy The Wages of Destruction, one discovers shocking facts such as that German manufacturing in the interwar era had 50% lower productivity than American manufacturing. In automobile production American manufacturers were more than four times as productive. German statesmen like Gustav Stresemann and Adolf Hitler both concluded that the reason for this was that American manufacturers could sell their goods tariff-free into the world’s largest market. Both concluded that Germany had to create for itself an equally large market in Eastern Europe. Only their means in how to achieve this differed.

    Today this distinction does not exist. Indeed the idea that the American automobile industry is four times as productive as the German one would invite ridicule and laughter. In order to maintain our pathetic cuck empire of globohomo vassal states, we threw open our markets to European and Japanese competitors. It only took them 30 years to catch up and in many industries even surpass us.

    In a move of incredible stupidity, we then opened our markets to the Chinese. The result of this is that China is now the world’s largest manufacturer and economy in real terms. They are also on track to surpass us in nominal terms.

    Charlie Munger, Warren Buffet’s more interesting partner, had this to say on the subject: https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/03/charlie-munger-ricardo-and-finance.html

    …Another example of not thinking through the consequences of the consequences is the standard reaction in economics to Ricardo’s law of comparative advantage giving benefit on both sides of trade. Ricardo came up with a wonderful, non-obvious explanation that was so powerful that people were charmed with it, and they still are, because it’s a very useful idea. Everybody in economics understands that comparative advantage is a big deal, when one considers first order advantages in trade from the Ricardo effect. But suppose you’ve got a very talented ethnic group, like the Chinese, and they’re very poor and backward, and you’re an advanced nation, and you create free trade with China, and it goes on for a long time.

    Now let’s follow and second and third order consequences: You are more prosperous than you would have been if you hadn’t traded with China in terms of average well-being in the United States, right? Ricardo proved it. But which nation is going to be growing faster in economic terms? It’s obviously China. They’re absorbing all the modern technology of the world through this great facilitator in free trade, and, like the Asian Tigers have proved, they will get ahead fast. Look at Hong Kong. Look at Taiwan. Look at early Japan. So, you start in a place where you’ve got a weak nation of backward peasants, a billion and a quarter of them, and in the end they’re going to be a much bigger, stronger nation than you are, maybe even having more and better atomic bombs. Well, Ricardo did not prove that that’s a wonderful outcome for the former leading nation. He didn’t try to determine second order and higher order effects.

    If you try and talk like this to an economics professor, and I’ve done this three times, they shrink in horror and offense because they don’t like this kind of talk. It really gums up this nice discipline of theirs, which is so much simpler when you ignore second and third order consequences.

    The best answer I ever got on that subject – in three tries – was from George Schultz. [Schultz was an MIT economics professor before becoming Secretary of the Treasury and Secretary of State.] He said, “Charlie, the way I figure it is if we stop trading with China, the other advanced nations will do it anyway, and we wouldn’t stop the ascent of China compared to us, and we’d lose the Ricardo- diagnosed advantages of trade.” Which is obviously correct. And I said, “Well George, you’ve just invented a new form of the tragedy of the commons. You’re locked in this system and you can’t fix it. You’re going to go to a tragic hell in a handbasket, if going to hell involves being once the great leader of the world and finally going to the shallows in terms of leadership.” And he said, “Charlie, I do not want to think about this.” I think he’s wise. He’s even older than I am, and maybe I should learn from him.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
  79. songbird says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    That’s true – the Japanese did not have a lot of real opposed landings. Even Wake wasn’t a cakewalk for them.

    Still, once it becomes man vs. man, there’s psychological factors at play. They would be fighting their own people, and I don’t expect the US would get involved. China is a juggernaut.

    If they were merely opposing hordes of Bantu armed with Chinese weapons, I suspect they would kill them all.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  80. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    But neo-Habsburg larpers are good allies of convenience because they also want to dismantle the Ukrainian entity so as to not to have to associate with Donbass sovoks and assorted riffraff.

    It isn’t larping, because Galicia was a part of Hapsburg-ruled Austria for about 140 years, double the amount of time that the USSR even existed.

    If Yanukovich had managed to consolidate his rule and integrate Ukraine firmly into Moscow’s orbit, Western Ukrainian separatism was an understandable positon to take. Salavage what one can. It would have more quickly joined EU and NATO than entire Ukraine can, and would have been a Visegrad nation of about 10 million people (Galicia + Volyn + Transcarpathia + Bukovyna). Lack of oligarchs, proximity ot the West, and better regional governance (at least in Galicia, which would dominate and set the pace) suggests that this region would have seen really fast economic growth under such circumstances.

    But of course the central Ukrainians joined their western brothers in overthrowing Yanukovich, making all of this unnecessary.

  81. Beckow says:
    @Mikel

    …Promise to comply and pretend

    Well, it is a plan. But Brussels also has a plan. In the case of corruption, Brussels doesn’t care – they might pretend to, but they don’t care, it is just a talking point. In the case of migrants, open borders and LGBT-trans whatever, Brussels cares very deeply – it is actually something that is a core principle for them, what they refer to as ‘values’. They will push those ‘values’ with no compromise.

    The goal is to homogenize the east (from Visegrad to Latvia and Ukraine, Romania, etc…) to be the same as the Western part of Europe. And by homogenization they mean no dominant local national community with millions of migrants who at a minimum dominate the big cities and capitols. And also a slow dissipation of local cultures, traditions, languages to be replaced with a monochrome ‘progressive’ culture.

    Brussels has a plan, and they will enforce it. What Poland and Hungary are going through is a minor version of how this will be enforced on outsiders who want to join EU. The reality that it is eons away, if ever, is actually kind of comforting.

    • Replies: @Mikel
  82. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Poland isn’t free from pathologies. Plenty of Western pickup artists live in Warsaw and Krakow.

    I wrote relatively free of pathologies. Those pick-up artists are seeking heterosexual relationships. Poland still has a very low divorce rate.

    Roosh has lived in Poland (and the Ukraine), and Krauser routinely spends months living in Poland (and other locations in Eastern Europe).

    Guess why?

    I don’t know details about these people. My impression is that they don’t get what they want so much in western Ukraine. I just googled Roosh and Poland and saw this:

    https://www.rooshv.com/bang-poland

    “My method to getting one-night stands in a country where one-night stands aren’t common (I describe what type of venue to hit, when to go out, how to approach, how to maintain a conversation, two moves to help escalate the interaction to a kiss, and four surgical routines that release a Polish girl’s inner sex demon)”

    Eastern Europe is just “backwards”. They have the same level of pathology as the West did circa 20 years ago.

    The difference is that the West 20 years ago could not see what the future would be like. Poland and Ukrane can and do when they look westward.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  83. @songbird

    Forgot about Wake.

    The Japanese were in fact repulsed–the first time.

    Sadly the Japanese returned. Most of the lonely Marines consigned to die for FDR’s demented, evil foreign policy ended up in Japanese captivity and suffered unimaginable cruelty and horror.

    I think the US would get involved in the event of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. Particularly under a “normal” American President rather than Trump (whom the Chinese might be able to buy off with substantial commercial concessions).

    Fighting your own people isn’t necessarily a problem. Look at various historical civil wars, including within living memory in China itself.

    The issue with amphibious invasions is that sustaining combat is an order of magnitude more difficult than in a land invasion. Compare the monumental logistical undertakings required for Operation Overlord to Operation Barbarossa.

    • Replies: @songbird
  84. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    …Ukrainian aspirations to join the European club is motivated equally between perceived and real economic benefits and more traditional Ukrainian needs for independence from its former colonial masters in Russia

    I am reluctant to use the term ‘colonialism‘ to describe the complex and ever-changing centre-periphery relationship among different European nations. It is a polarizing term and it doesn’t fit well in situations were it was mostly the uber-national elites versus peasants of different nationalities. Was Belgium a colony of Holland until 1830? Technically it was. So was Finland of Sweden, southern Sweden was a ‘colony’ of Denmark, most of Italy of Spain, Bretagne of France, Schleswig of Germany, etc…

    The coming struggle over to what extent Brussels will be able to double-down and enforce its values on the east (and a few others, like Italy) will be decisive. I don’t know which way it will go, but the EU central elites are not about to give up – after Brexit is out of the way, the pressure on the east will increase. What we have seen with Poland, Hungary and Italy so far have been just a few trial balloons.

    The globalist side controls almost all institutions: governments, courts, academia, media, culture, big business, and ‘NGOs’. That gives them enormous power. E.g. another well publicised (or even staged) outrage about a suffering migrant child, attack by a ‘nationalist’, external threat (probably from Russia) – can be used to bamboozle enough people to move the ‘values‘ project forward. There are also economic pressures and elite-selection mechanisms that can be applied. Then there is the unrelenting demographic pressure from the Third World – the globalist elites don’t have to do much to facilitate mass migrations, all they have to assure is a level of non-enforcement of border rules and the demography will do the rest.

    EU will not change its ‘values’, leopards never change their spots. It is what they are all about, they have ‘dreams’ too, it is an ideology, they really believe this stuff. All in all, I think it is more likely that Poland (and Hungary, Slovakia,…) will be out of EU, than Ukraine in EU. As so often in the past, we are fighting the last war.

  85. @AP

    I’ve followed Roosh for many years and was once in the PUA community (as a participant, not a blogger).

    He generally does not disclose which cities he lives in for reasons of personal security, but I get the impression that he has lived in Kiev, Odessa, and Kharkov.

    On Poland vs. the Ukraine he describes Polish girls as being easier. Ukrainian women are more beautiful.

    Pickup artists are seeking sex with a variety of women. There are women in Poland and the Ukraine willing to enter into casual sexual relationships with strange men, including foreign men (even Turks, reportedly a problem in the Ukraine). They are not stopped by their community from pursuing casual sexual relationships and do not suffer penalties (other than the pain of heartbreak and the cheap feeling that stems from being sexually used) for having such relationships.

    Most Polish and Ukrainian women have had a variety of sexual partners, and very few enter marriage as virgins.

    They are thus sexually degenerate cultures suffering from pathologies. That they do not worship homo-sexuals (who are completely permitted and tolerated) is cold comfort.

    Poland deserves praise for its low divorce rate, but in light of the fact that most Polish wives are whores they do not deserve much praise.

    Also since this is somewhat cutting note that I mean no disrespect to Eastern Europeans in stating these things. Eastern European countries are all “modern” and thus suffer from the same “modern” pathologies as the West, China, Japan, etc. Only Muslim countries are still holding the line on this (and even they are beginning to fail).

    • Replies: @216
    , @anonymous
  86. @Anatoly Karlin

    Edinburgh also has far more English people than Glasgow (actual Scots voted in favour of independence by a slight margin)

    • Replies: @g2k
  87. Sean says:

    LePen is the leader of a peasants’ revolt against the ruling class of her own state, although they are all about making France strong and see her as the traitor. In a very real sense Western countries are run by the emergent qualities of the state in which the ruling class are for the purpose of increasing the potential military power of their nation state. What is strongest wins and the Western liberal system produces a more powerful economy. Zelensky is a tool of the crook who looted the country of the billions that British have froze in his secret London bank accounts and severely damaged the economy. No (sober) intelligent person would vote for Z, but then the average Ukrainian soldier is constantly drunk, or would be if he was not so accustomed to alcohol.

    Nation states exist to fight one another and nationalism is first and foremost over-against other nation states. The expulsion of the Jews from Spain was because the people were needed to fight the King’s wars. The elite cannot imagine why there should be another major war, but they are all about making the state of which they are part grow in relative power. France has been the most successful in this. The liberal way does dilute the country’s overall genetic quality but it is mainly the workers who are affected and they will always have the ruling class to do their thinking for them.

    The Japanese Kamikaze pilots were children of the elite. Ukraine is under genuine threat from a very powerful foreign country, so the best (the ruling class are superior in every respect) Ukrainian people become rabid nationalists.

  88. notanon says:

    what would happen if you have “free trade” and the critical comparative advantage in 90% of that trade was the price of labor?

  89. @melanf

    Russian expats overwhelmingly voted for Putin for two reasons. First, they liked the way he is confronting the Empire, which lately resorted to shameless international banditry. Second, they don’t suffer from his internal policies, including now notorious robbery disguised as “pension reform”. People inside Russia who feel robbed or otherwise cheated tend to vote for left-leaning parties. This leaves Russian libtards with their standard single digits support on both sides of the border.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  90. 216 says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    A large part of PUA is to leverage the higher income/status from the West to attract women in lower income countries. In other societies they just short-circuit and outright import brides, which is now something of a joke in the West.

    The end of the Great Divergence will accelerate this, as Indian/Chinese men begin importing brides and becoming PUAs.

    If there is an anti-modern solution, it might include ‘arranged marriages’, as a way of limiting hypergamy and putting mate selection powers under a greater degree of parental/community control. LKY in Singapore tried to implement something like this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Development_Network

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  91. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Incidentally, I was recently at a talk by the ethnic Ukrainian Russian nationalist Chalenko. According to him, before Crimea, Russian nationalists used to some counterintuitively nice relationships with Galician neo-Habsburgists. Not with Banderists, because they want a *unitary* fascist Ukraine. But neo-Habsburg larpers are good allies of convenience because they also want to dismantle the Ukrainian entity so as to not to have to associate with Donbass sovoks and assorted riffraff. Obviously that became irrelevant after 2014, as they – for the first time – realized that getting the whole pie (or almost all of it) might just happen after all

    Keeping in mind that the Galician Ukrainian Army en masse came under the command of the Whites during the Russian Civil War. It’s noted that both armies were warmly received by the locals when they initially entered Kiev at about the same time. Upon meeting up with each other in that instance, their initial response was generally one of fascinating interest, as opposed to a knee jerk seeking to fight each other.

    After the Russian Civil War, a number of Galician Army personnel remained in what became Soviet Ukraine. Conversely, a number of Ukrainian Petliura supporters ended up in Polish held Galicia and Volhynia.

  92. @AnonFromTN

    Russian expats in the West (as per data) voted for Putin less than in Russia, with the sole major exception of Germany and Israel.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  93. songbird says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    FDR was disaster. In addition to his poor diplomatic moves, he moved two carriers into the Atlantic. He was warned about positioning the Fleet at Pearl – two many angles of attack, not enough scouting power – but he ignored the warnings.

    Fighting your own people isn’t necessarily a problem. Look at various historical civil wars, including within living memory in China itself

    The way I see it things are different on three fronts:
    1.) China proper is much larger, more intimidating, and politically powerful on the world stage – it is like they already lost the war
    2.) Modern Taiwan probably has softer men both historically and softer than China – and we are talking really low TFR too, so the homefront is more reluctant to see them killed. They have been wussified by prosperity.
    3.) Taiwan is enmeshed in China’s cultural and economic net. This is different scenario than just political factions fighting.

    But, I don’t see them invading, anytime soon. I think the Chinese are content to play the long game, short of any really irrational decisions on the part of the Taiwanese.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  94. @216

    Perhaps someone who lives in Eastern Europe can comment, but I get the impression that in the Visegrad countries at least being a Westerner is no longer a big deal. There’s still an income advantage, but it isn’t what it used to be.

    The main reason PUAs like Eastern Europe is that the women are hotter and less bitchy. Or at least they’re thinner.

    Most PUAs start out in their own countries. Roosh for instance was originally “DC Bachelor”. After he got enough income from his PUA literature he started traveling. First to Latin America, then to Eastern Europe.

    Arranged marriages strike me as a good…arrangement. Young people aren’t known for making good decisions period, and those decisions get that much worse when you add hormones to the mix.

    I don’t think hypergamy per se is a problem, though I’d no doubt feel differently if I were a lower status man. The real issue is that modern romantic relationships are all transient–or can be. No one has any security in his relationship anymore, and understandably people therefore invest less in romantic relationships.

    • Replies: @216
    , @Curious Person
  95. @songbird

    There’s a non-trivial risk of Taiwan electing a FUCK YOU DAD “nationalist” government which thinks virtue signaling is a viable strategy against the People’s Liberation Army.

    That would be a nightmare scenario.

  96. The original paper and the whole discussion are totally meaningless. People express their opinions as if there is any difference between Porky and Zelenski. There is none, zilch, nada. Porky is a thief, while Ze is a front for another shameless thief, Kolomoisky. All oligarchs in all countries, including Porky and Kolomoisky in Ukraine, are the same scum, whose only allegiance is to their own money. Their nationality does not matter. Both Porky and Ze successfully fooled many Ukrainian nationalists simply because it is really easy to fool the fools. Except that Kolomoisky turned out to be more devious than other Ukrainian mega-thieves: instead of running himself, like Porky or the gas princess, he showed the sheeple shiny new face, Ze. Sheeple were duly fooled by this ruse, so Ze is much more popular now. Nothing will change when Porky runs away. Nothing will change even if he is prevented from fleeing and gets the gallows he deserves. The sheeple will be told fairy tales about independence and national pride, while being fleeced by the thieves, like they were since 1991.

  97. Beckow says:
    @LatW

    I didn’t say that the nationalist or traditionalist forces in eastern Europe don’t fight the Brussels migrant-LGBT-etc… progressive policies, they do, from Latvia to Poland, from Hungary to Slovakia.

    But there is a fundamental weakness in the dichotomy that most of them follow: love the West, submit to the West, worship one’s betters in Berlin, Paris, Brussels – and at same time try to limit or resist the policies that current Western elites passionately believe in. So most of the fights are very one-sided, a few symbolic ‘victories’ (really just postponements), but the massive globalist-progressive caravan goes on.

    To contest any ideology and also accept that its bearers are your betters is a losing fight. To argue small things without fully embracing self-interest and standing for it openly is a weak strategy. Brussels sees the current Visegrad resistance as a temporary irritant by primitive eastern people who ‘spent two generations under totalitarianism‘, who don’t know what is good for them. It is a teaching moment – they believe that with proper education the problem will be solved. My point is that by looking up to the likes of Macron, Merkel, Juncker, we are giving them this power.

    When I see the mindless Western worship – most recently on Maidan, no matter with AP tells us about how it is all ‘about Poland’ – I see cultures that are simply not in a position to assert themselves. So they eventually, usually quietly, give in. A more proper way to fight this would be to point out the real situation in the so-called advanced Western countries, and ask them to address it at home before preaching to others. Because if they don’t address it, it will inevitably spread east – whether we take the Third World migrants directly or via a short wait-station in France or Germany really doesn’t make that much difference. When Merkel opened the borders, it was in effect our borders too.

    • Replies: @LatW
    , @LatW
  98. @Anatoly Karlin

    The majority voted for Putin everywhere. The only difference is, how large that majority was in different countries.

  99. anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I haven’t followed Roosh closely but I remembered he had a really tough time getting laid in Ukraine but Poland was very easy. Poland I know is considered a favorite in the PUA community.

  100. 216 says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    How many people actively engage in PUA? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?

    I’m familiar with Roosh, but have no interest in the lifestyle, so I’ve never met a practioner IRL.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @notanon
  101. @216

    Thousands perhaps.

    PUA peaked in the late 2000s.

    Most people in the community eventually become far right and thus develop broader interests.

    The modern alt-right in part developed out of the PUA community. The writer Roissy/Heartiste (https://heartiste.wordpress.com) has been particularly influential.

    The journalist Mike Cernovich was once part of the PUA community as well and made thousands of posts on the Roosh V Forums as Mike CF.

    It has been quite culturally influential despite being a suppressed, underground movement. It was the PUA community that created the concept of the “Red Pill”, and the usage of the terms Alpha and Beta to describe men comes from the PUA community.

    There’s probably a bad Rational Wiki article about it written by weirdos.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  102. R-Unit says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Because whites are far more educated than pardos and mulattos. Adjust for that and it would no longer be true.

    Maybe, but that sounds like a guess rather than something you know for sure. I’ll point out the post originally said that low IQ voted Bolsonaro even with racial confounding, so I think you made a mistake there.

  103. melanf says:

    Perhaps someone who lives in Eastern Europe can comment, but I get the impression that in the Visegrad countries at least being a Westerner is no longer a big deal.
    The main reason PUAs like Eastern Europe is that the women are hotter and less bitchy.

    Those who are specifically looking for brides in Eastern Europe will inevitably attract the bitches or the most stupid girls from white trash. The one who could not find a good girl on his own land, has little chance to succeed in foreign territory. In Russia, by the way, there are also similar men – fans of Thai and Filipino mistresses. I find it hard to imagine who they are to have the money to travel to Thailand, but not to find Chicks in Russia .

  104. notanon says:
    @216

    for a lot of young men PUA was a major gateway into belief in genetic differences (in PUA’s case male/female differences) but as mentioned they’ve now mostly transitioned into various kinds of “trad” ideology as a result.

  105. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Again, Romney, so far, is not a RINO (though we do need about a year’s more worth of votes to be really sure):

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/ukraines-uniqueness/#comment-3164096

    He’s also not all that much more anti-Russian than the GOP consensus (he voted against the Dems re: Rusal sanctions relief this year).

  106. Ukrainian nationalism is phony; should we be surprised this corrupted nationalism yields reversed correlations?

    The so-called nationalists are pro-EU, implicitly pro-sodomy, pro schismatic church, and by extension anti-Orthodoxy. These are classic globohomo positions, the only reason they’re labeled “nationalist” is because Russia is there to be the scapegoat, to distract Ukrainians from the failure of Ukrainianism. The hardcore militias use the same white nationalist symbols, such as the “black sun” that you see on obvious Fed/Mossad-run white nationalist websites. They’re globohomoist assets! Globohomoism is correlated with IQ, the Ukraine is a globohomo vassal, therefor support for this fake nationalistic regime is correlated with IQ. It’s just a result of confused labeling.

    “dumb people believe x, smart people believe y, really smart people believe x” is still true here. Really smart Ukrainians will tend to understand that Ukraine is a natural part of a greater Russian sphere, just as the dumber are more likely to understand.

  107. g2k says:
    @Serrice

    If you’re a smart, straight white guy in angloland, then the ‘progressive consensus’, bioleninism, poz, (call it what you want) is most definitely not something which will advance your interests, yet it’s very hard to find millenials who arent true believers. Not sure how many lectures/courses etc. denigrating the ‘pale male and stale’ or banging on about the ‘pay gap’ they need to sit through before they’ll realise this.

  108. LatW says:
    @Beckow

    I agree with your general assesment. We’re talking about two different nationalists: liberal civnats and real nationalists who are more eurorealist. And even they are confronted by Third way hardliners about “how can you go with the liberals” to which they respond that what little was achieved was achieved thanks to them being in the government.

    As you say, we need to change the narrative. In order to not appear like yo-yo’ing dumbs##its, who changed their mind about the EU so quickly, we need to point out that the West itself now changes its values every 5-10 years. Like, whatever happened to the Europe of nations? That was still a thing just 10 years ago. Quotas for migrants that have crossed 3 peaceful countries and allowing men to play women’s sports is breaking the rules in the middle of the game. For reference see Zoltan Kovacs’ interview with Tim Sebastian, maybe do it a bit more subtly than he did but in that vein.

  109. g2k says:
    @Curious Person

    Glasgow and Edinburgh are ‘different’. Glasgow is considered to be more authentically Scottish whereas Edinburgh is seen as being pseudo-English. Edinburgh is indeed nicer than glasgow, though the latter isn’t unpleasant (boomers tend to hype up how rough it is). A thing to bear in mind is that whilst the uk might, justifiably, be called ‘meme Island’, Scotland is that on steroids, so voting against independence could be seen as a way of ensuring that the Scottish sjwism is diluted within the british body politic thus avoiding being ruled by syriza in kilts.

    • Replies: @Curious Person
  110. LatW says:
    @Beckow

    This also made me think about the urban geography in EE. Unlike in the West where the elites isolate themselves, in the EE they hang out and often live in the city. Ofc there are homes outside the city and in places like lake Balaton, but imagine having to give up one’s favorite restaurants and downtown apartments in jugendstil houses because the urban landscape is changing.

  111. @Thorfinnsson

    The main reason PUAs like Eastern Europe is that the women are hotter and less bitchy.

    Russian women are impossible to have a conversation with.

    • Replies: @melanf
  112. @Thorfinnsson

    Most people in the community eventually become far right and thus develop broader interests.

    The modern alt-right in part developed out of the PUA community. The writer Roissy/Heartiste (https://heartiste.wordpress.com) has been particularly influential

    The main concepts and terms (e.g. hypergamy) came from the white nationalist F R Devil via Roissy

  113. @g2k

    Glasgow is considered to be more authentically Scottish whereas Edinburgh is seen as being pseudo-English.

    Which is strange considering that Glasgow is full of taigs, who are also the most fervent Scottish ‘nationalists’

  114. melanf says:
    @Curious Person

    Russian women are impossible to have a conversation with.

    Today, at least in St. Petersburg and Moscow, a significant percentage of girls can speak English.

  115. Mikel says:

    Today, at least in St. Petersburg and Moscow, a significant percentage of girls can speak English.

    That was already the case last time I visited Russia, around the late 90s or the turn of the century, approx. And they were very friendly too, as usual in Eastern Europe. I don’t know what CP is talking about.

    • Replies: @Curious Person
  116. Mikel says:
    @Beckow

    In the case of migrants, open borders and LGBT-trans whatever, Brussels cares very deeply – it is actually something that is a core principle for them

    I don’t think we’ve reached the point where those principles take precedence in the EU over refraining from shelling your own civilians or torturing them.

    Officials in Brussels can’t possibly ignore the detailed figures the UNCHR has gathered: more than 4 thousand civilians killed in Donbas (the majority of them from Ukrainian indiscriminate shelling) and multiple, documented, cases of arbitrary imprisonment and torture on both sides. But they haven’t moved a finger about any of this. They have actually sided with the Ukrainian side, blamed the Russians for all the deaths and imposed sanctions exclusively on the latter.

    Given all that, I’m skeptical that in the case of Ukraine anyone in Brussels is thinking of going very heavy on the gay-trans or colored migrants issues.

  117. @Anatoly Karlin

    As you know, that is pretty much my opinion as well. Taiwanese nationalism is pretty much begging for master to save them.

  118. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Thorfinnsson

    I thought the “red pill” concept came from The Matrix.

  119. @Mikel

    And they were very friendly too, as usual in Eastern Europe. I don’t know what CP is talking about.

    I have not been to Russia, but with the ones in England it’s like talking to a brick wall; you will ask a question and they will give a one word answer and then just stand there in silence. By contrast, Polish and Hungarian women seem much friendlier.

    • Replies: @melanf
  120. melanf says:
    @Curious Person

    I have not been to Russia, but with the ones in England it’s like talking to a brick wall; you will ask a question and they will give a one word answer and then just stand there in silence.

    Some strange women. I do not know how it is with expats in England, but here in Russia it’s the opposite, the girls are constantly looking for communication (and constantly complain “Why don’t you talk to me!”)

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  121. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    I think he is talking about a real cultural difference, which is not related to gender and women, which is how openly speaking to strange people you don’t know, on the first meeting.

    Poles are usually very extroverted on first meeting, and do not stop talking, especially women. So if he compares with Polish culture, then the first meeting could seem unfriendly for him.

  122. Anon[270] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    If you take into account that Zelensky’s partron is Kolomoysky. It is no surprise that the wealthy and their offspring in universities vote for Poroshenko.

    The proles have nothing to lose from Benya’s rule.

  123. Anon[270] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    Also, ironically, Poroshenko’s profile was not of a nationalist even though he courted the nationalist vote with Tomos and Mova.

  124. nebulafox says:

    I’m not sure having a lower IQ proves much here. It doesn’t take a lot of intelligence for an average working class native French guy to realize that Marine Le Pen is much more likely to enact policies that would benefit him than Emmanuel Macron would.

    Not to get off on too tangential a note here, but I’ve noticed that below-110 IQ people in the West are far more likely to latently recognize the inherent nonsense in a lot of what their elites claim about life: at least when it comes to the indelible stuff like, say, gender relations or supply and demand, the kind of stuff that the usual suspects need to abstract away. It might be on a deep, unstated level, but it is there in a way that it isn’t for people who have the cognitive abilities to rationalize ideas that contradict daily empirical realities. But of course, they also don’t have the ability to express that “the emperor has no clothes” in ways that wouldn’t leave them open targets for mockery by their cognitive superiors. So many will simply shut up and either submerge these thoughts so they can voice the “correct” opinion-aka, they stop thinking at all-or keep them to themselves until they are in the bar or online.

    • Replies: @Logan
  125. Logan says:
    @nebulafox

    It has been well said that some ideas are so stupid only a highly intelligent and educated person can believe them.

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