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Ukraine's National Anthem Will Protect It from Corona
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EDIT 2020/03/03: Original video deleted – here’s another one.

Винники

После того, как сотрудникам госпиталя в Винниках Львовской области, где планировали принимать эвакуированных из Китая, сообщили о том, что гостей из Уханя ждать не стоит, они спели Гимн Украины. Это, конечно, высший пилотаж! А что по этому поводу думаете вы?Подписывайтесь на наш канал в Телеграм https://t.me/dumskayatvСледите за нашим каналом в Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dumskayatv/

Posted by Думская ТВ on Thursday, February 20, 2020

I try to avoid cheap jokes about Ukraine is like Africa. But I do sometimes wonder.

This is how doctors and nurses at a Lvov hospital reacted to finding out that they wouldn’t be hosting potential coronavirus infectees evacuated from China. By singing the ще не вмерла.

[News sources: Strana.ua; Lenta; TSN.ua; Facebook].

In fairness, you’re probably safer staying at home than getting treated by that crowd.

This is after a group of 70 thugs pelted a bus carrying other evacuees with stones. Actually, scratch this, I wouldn’t even expect this in African villages.

On reading Richard Preston’s The Hot Zone during the ebola crisis that year, many things that are auto-dismissed as “superstitious African” behavior become clear to me. For instance, the suspicion of hospitals – understandable since past cases, hospitals had served as the primary transmission vector. The suspicion towards (and even murder of) medical teams – part of long (and effective!) tradition of villages self-quarantining themselves. There were even accounts of patients displaying erratic behavior (e.g. pissing on nurses), almost as if the ebola was subtly influencing the brain to propagate this gift of Nurgle. Ebola-chan was literally real! Corona is nowhere near as virulent as ebola (~1% vs. ~60% mortality rates). Yet not even African medical teams, so far as I know, were celebrating opportunities to skimp out on the Hippocratic Oath.

Of course, this didn’t stop the usual suspects from dismissing this as a Russian psyop. See also Insomniac Resurrected for some more homegrown Ukrainian examples.

In fairness, though, that’s nothing new, with the West’s Russiagate obsessives having also blaming Russia for promoting anti-vaccines propaganda and creating Ukraine’s measles epidemic (by far the largest in Europe). Even though the measles immunization rate had collapsed during the late Orange era, when the influence of America and the Baptist freaks from Western Ukraine reached a temporary maximum.

Incidentally, this does show to what extent the Ukraine has really “unified” as a country after Russian “aggression” and what Ukrainian nationalism is really worth. It’s all fun and games when larping in vyshivankas and kneeling before funeral processions of ATO soldiers, but as soon as they need to put some skin in the game, all of that instantly dissipates.

***

PS. he Ukraine handed over the operation of its railways to German state operator Deutsche Bahn for a period of ten years, with PM Alexei Goncharuk having remarked back in October 2019 Ukraine’s railway infrastructure is “practically destroyed… due to total corruption.” As far as I know, all East European countries are capable of running their own railways. Why does Ukrainian governance underperform its national IQ level of ~95 by about 1 S.D.? In fact, I think Ukraine might well be the single greatest argument against HBD.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Coronavirus, Russiagate, Svidomy, Ukraine 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. AK remember how you said Ukraine is not collapsing. I would say this is the effect of a collapsed country.

    • Replies: @AP
    Not wanting infected people in the country and trying to prevent them from entering means it is a collapsed country? LOL.

    I wonder if a bunch of Muslim refugees would be treated much better. I suspect not. Self-preservation instinct is strong, even if misapplied in the case of these poor people returning from China.
    , @Korenchkin
    Gabon is not collapsing either, Ukrainians can probably chug along indefinitely
  3. The singing was not predicate (protective). As the facts show it was subsequent (reactive).

    Thus simple Logic 101 unambiguously shows that the anthem had no impact on the outcome.

    Why is happiness about not being subjected to a communicable, potentially lethal disease surprising?

    The anthem would be different, but the scene could have happened just as easily in any rural hospital outside of Sochi, Saint Petersburg, or Vladivostok in relief that Moscow central wasn’t dumping plague on them.

    PEACE 😇

    • Agree: Mr. Hack, AP
    • Replies: @El Dato

    the anthem had no impact on the outcome
     
    We already know that.

    What you mean to say is the anthem was not an outbreak of superstition (protective) but an outbreak of asshattery (I can be an asshole, let's sing a bit). A bit like football.

    ... Unless the hidden meaning is "we stand with our patients" etc. but apparently not.

    , @Alfred
    the anthem had no impact on the outcome.

    This attitude and behaviour by those in the West of the Ukraine (Lvov) proves once more that the Ukraine is not one country. I was told that the aircraft circled for hours before being allowed to land. Those on board were sent to isolation close to Poltava - in the Russian-speaking east of the Ukraine.

    It should be no surprise that the Ukraine will eventually split up into its constituent parts. I suspect Poland is likely to regain Lvov. Those in that hospital will have to brush up on their Polish. Lots of their relatives already work across the border in Poland.

  4. Incidentally, this does show to what extent the Ukraine has really “unified” as a country after Russian “aggression” and what Ukrainian nationalism is really worth. It’s all fun and games when larping in vyshivankas and kneeling before funeral processions of ATO soldiers, but as soon as they need to put some skin in the game, all of that instantly dissipates.

    What exactly do you mean by this, Anatoly?

    PS. he Ukraine handed over the operation of its railways to German state operator Deutsche Bahn for a period of ten years, with PM Alexei Goncharuk having remarked back in October 2019 Ukraine’s railway infrastructure is “practically destroyed… due to total corruption.” As far as I know, all East European countries are capable of running their own railways. Why does Ukrainian governance underperform its national IQ level of ~95 by about 1 S.D.? In fact, I think Ukraine might well be the single greatest argument against HBD.

    It’s “The Ukraine”, not “he Ukraine”. Anyway, though, I wonder if there’s something in the Ukrainian character that promotes anarchism and thus less effective management in comparison to neighboring countries. Honestly, I doubt it, but the success of Ukrainian anarchist Makhno during the Russian Civil War does make one wonder.

    One would think that with the destruction of pro-Russian forces in Ukraine (they no longer have a realistic chance of acquiring power in Ukraine), Ukraine would be capable of being governed more effectively–and maybe this is true to some extent, with the economic growth in western Ukraine that AP sometimes talks about. Still, one does wonder just how long it will take for Ukraine to fully eliminate its governance problems. Here’s wishing them luck on my own part, though!

    • Replies: @Oscar Peterson

    It’s “The Ukraine”, not “he Ukraine”.
     
    An unneeded correction. In any case, it's not "the Ukraine." It's simply "Ukraine." At least that's what Ukrainians prefer. The use of the definite article is seen to convey a more regional or provincial flavor rather than the national identity they obviously wish to assert.
    , @Alfred
    with the destruction of pro-Russian forces in Ukraine

    Are you referring to the ethnic cleansing in the east?

    Israel in Ukraine is entirely out of control Uman August 2016 Video, by Scott Humor

    The only other destruction that I am aware of is the destruction of the Ukrainian economy. An industrialised country has been reduced to a service economy. Millions have fled to Russia and other countries. It has become a basket case. Closing the border with Russia and preventing trade between these neighbours has impoverished Ukraine. Imagine Mexico or Canada declining to trade with the USA.

    I think you are sorely misinformed. The population in the east is Russian-speaking. All educated people everywhere speak Russian. That is what they use in their parliament. Closing down pro-Russian media - TV, newspapers, internet - does not change this reality. As soon as the Americans get tired and their politicians stop using Ukraine as a proverbial milk cow, things will go back to normal.

  5. BTW, Anatoly, what exactly do you think caused countries such as Russia and Ukraine to develop serious problems with oligarchs after the collapse of Communism while countries such as Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, et cetera appear to have managed to avoid this fate?

    • Replies: @jony
    The US completely managed the oligarchy into existence. IMF "loans", plane loads of cash, and Jewish diaspora/mafia made sure that everything was sliced up unequally. Everyone not connected to that was screwed.

    Perhaps both countries were deliberately targeted for destruction because they didn't know which way they would go. Brzezinski had a huge hand in creating the new (completely dysfunctional) Ukraine. I remember he said "we have their money in our banks" in response to the question if oligarchs got out of line. All of this talk of "palace coups" and Maidans flow from that. Oligarchs are a feature, not a side effect, of keeping US control in post-Soviet space. They are always doing the Washington's bidding because otherwise they would be separated from their money.

    In Central Europe this wasn't much of a problem because they already had links to Germany and the West ready to go. They spent very little time under Communist systems.

    , @Brutiss
    The oligarchy of those places is just in W EU & London
    , @neutral
    I need to point out that Hungary does have Soros, one of the worlds most famous Oligarchs.
    , @Beckow
    Some of it is natural resources, oligarchy really thrives when there are easy things to grab. But in V4 people also watch each other more closely and they are (in)famously process heavy with middle-aged ladies in charge of all documents. Those Habsburg-leftover mammas are unmovable, so even oligarchs have to play nice.

    We have oligarchs, you could call Andrej Babis - the current Czech prime minister and the future EU boss - an oligarch. Babis made his billions developing agriculture and fertilizers in the 90's. His insight was that after 40 years of collective farming there was a huge opportunity in efficient production and distribution.

    The real thieves are too scared of the office ladies asking for notarized, translated documents in triplicate, no older than 60 days, and reading 80-page instruction pamphlets written by baboons and posted behind the bathroom on an unknown floor - so they are mostly hiding out in places like Belize and Mali. Could we ship some of these ladies to Ukraine? They don't need German consultants, they need bitter dead-ender spinsters with an attitude and 4-hour week, it would improve both places...

  6. Looking over the Ukrainian national anthem, I think it has a common fault with many other national anthems: it evokes war and battle, but not disease.

    I’m not even kidding. To most people nowadays, the Donbass aside, war is an abstraction. We live under a nuclear umbrella of peace. The threat is not military. It is globohomo, which is more properly labeled a disease.

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    It is also a dull anthem, melodically... one which the lyrics only merely cements ukraine/404 as a loser-mentality nation.

    I am not too keen on the Tryzub symbol either. It is too much like the swastika symbols for Nazis (a Hindu symbol), in other words a religious-connotation symbol from over a millennium ago, used for semi-paganistic reason and no connection to the modern day state at all. Bizarre.

    The black part on the UPA flag made plenty of sense ( fertile black soil of Ukraine) until you realise that Galicia is by far the least black earth region of Ukraine..and that most of the UPA sadist commanders never even saw any of this famous black soil in their pathetic lifetimes.... thus making the decision to have it on the flag a strange one.
  7. Bringing in expertise to help bring Ukrainian rail travel up to European standards by hiring a German consulting firm (I notice that they’re not employing a Russian one) make a lot of sense, as Ukraine’s future is in Europe, not in Russia. Ukraine’s railways are a mixed bag, progress is mixed with stagnation. The main Railway Depot in Kyiv is a beautiful complex, and new railways and trains are being regularly added. It’s a wise country that can admit that it still can stand to improve and goes to the best in the business and get some help:

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    BTW, Ukraine is not "handing over management" to Deutsche Bahn, but only hiring them on for some consulting services, so Ukrainian HBD is still a viable option for Ukraine. :-) :

    Deutsche Bahn denies the statement of Ukraine’s PM Oleksiy Honcharuk on passing of Ukrzalisnytsia (Ukrainian Railways) to its management for ten years, as ZN.ua reported citing Deutsche Bahn Spokesperson Kerstin Eckstein.

    “German railway company Deutsche Bahn will provide consulting services to Ukrzalisnytsia,” Eckstein said.

    There is no issue about management, according to the spokesperson.

    “These services would be provided by DB Engineering & Consulting company, which enters Deutsche Bahn. It will help the Ukrainian company to solve the number of business and technical issues,” he added.</blockquote
    https://112.international/ukraine-top-news/deutsche-bahn-denies-statement-on-giving-ukrainian-railways-management-to-it-47810.html
     


     
    , @Matra
    Bringing in expertise to help bring Ukrainian rail travel up to European standards by hiring a German consulting firm (I notice that they’re not employing a Russian one)

    Now if only Deutsche Bahn would hire consultants from one of Germany's western or southern neighbours perhaps they too could get their rail travel up to western European standards.
    , @Alfred
    Employing German consultants is an expensive business. But all these decisions are political these days. The fantasy of Ukraine joining the European union is manifested by the EU flag flying alongside the Ukrainian flag on many government buildings. Many ordinary Ukrainians have been duped into believing that Ukraine is already in the EU!

    Ukrainian railways have the Russian Gauge. That is never going to change. Obviously, that determines pretty well everything that operates over these rails - engines, carriages, bridges, tunnels etc.

    A visit to any Ukrainian supermarket will confirm that most of the products on sale are either imported from the European Union or are manufactured locally by subsidiaries of EU firms. There was a fire-sale of these assets and the oligarchs grabbed them before selling them to the EU companies at a good price.

    By deciding to sign the agreement with the EU, Ukraine has forfeited its future.

    Auchan is a large chain of French supermarkets. They dominate much of Ukraine. Here is a link to their online offers for cheeses. Hardly anything is Ukrainian.

    Auchan Cheeses (Ukraine)

    EU supermarkets have nothing from Ukraine - a major farming country with far lower wages than in the EU. That is part of the price of the fake admission to the EU.
  8. @Mr. Hack
    Bringing in expertise to help bring Ukrainian rail travel up to European standards by hiring a German consulting firm (I notice that they're not employing a Russian one) make a lot of sense, as Ukraine's future is in Europe, not in Russia. Ukraine's railways are a mixed bag, progress is mixed with stagnation. The main Railway Depot in Kyiv is a beautiful complex, and new railways and trains are being regularly added. It's a wise country that can admit that it still can stand to improve and goes to the best in the business and get some help:

    https://youtu.be/67jF3b0DDVo

    BTW, Ukraine is not “handing over management” to Deutsche Bahn, but only hiring them on for some consulting services, so Ukrainian HBD is still a viable option for Ukraine. 🙂 :

    Deutsche Bahn denies the statement of Ukraine’s PM Oleksiy Honcharuk on passing of Ukrzalisnytsia (Ukrainian Railways) to its management for ten years, as ZN.ua reported citing Deutsche Bahn Spokesperson Kerstin Eckstein.

    “German railway company Deutsche Bahn will provide consulting services to Ukrzalisnytsia,” Eckstein said.

    There is no issue about management, according to the spokesperson.

    “These services would be provided by DB Engineering & Consulting company, which enters Deutsche Bahn. It will help the Ukrainian company to solve the number of business and technical issues,” he added.</blockquote
    https://112.international/ukraine-top-news/deutsche-bahn-denies-statement-on-giving-ukrainian-railways-management-to-it-47810.html

  9. A picture of Ukrainians can be a very effective Rorschach test on Russians. Russians become less guarded and vigilant. They show their ugly and pitiful usually kept hidden feelings. It can be revealing though ultimately sad.

    • Agree: Yevardian
    • Replies: @Yevardian
    It brings out the worst in many commenters here, that's for sure.
    , @Korenchkin
    >The butthurt belter cries out in pain as he insults you
    , @Alfred
    They show their ugly and pitiful usually kept hidden feelings

    At the moment, ordinary Russian feel pity for Ukrainians. Russian TV, unlike Ukrainian TV, invites personalities from all political persuasions to debate. This clever tactic has allowed the Russians to understand that the UkroNazis are vermin who cannot be reformed.

    Here is a recent interview where Putin was asked to comment on Ukraine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=18&v=NG6dxqwxGE4

    Putin says Russia, Ukraine torn apart to prevent major rival from emerging (English subtitles)

    His claim is obviously correct. The UK has been working on it for almost 2 centuries.
  10. AK is mixing apples and oranges. Handing the running of Ukrainian railway over to DB is rational. Say, when you can’t fly a plane, you entrust flying it to someone who can. If you can’t do heart surgery, you also use someone who can do it.

    The reception of Ukrainian citizens evacuated from Wuhan was anything but rational. First, several cities refused to accept them, period. The plane with evacuated Ukrainians landed several times in Ukraine and had to fly again. The fig leaf the authorities used was “refueling”. Finally, the government made it land in Poltava and under heavy armed escort poor people were transported on a bus to New Sanzhary for a two-week quarantine. Despite police protection, on the way the bus was pelted with stones. Several windows were broken. Now locals spread in social media calls for burning down the building where these people are quarantined along with its inhabitants. Comparing this to Africa is insulting: insulting to Africa. Nothing like that happened with compatriots evacuated from Wuhan in any country on Earth. This is the way crazed brainless medieval peasants would meet a load of witches. Most countries left Middle Ages behind. Some didn’t.

    • Agree: Aedib
    • Replies: @Denis

    Despite police protection, on the way the bus was pelted with stones. Several windows were broken. Now locals spread in social media calls for burning down the building where these people are quarantined along with its inhabitants.
     
    Wow, that's kind of barbaric. Isn't the government able to put out a PSA or something? Like, aren't they able to just go on TV and say "assaulting people with coronavirus isn't a good way to stop it from spreading"?
    , @Beckow

    ...The reception of Ukrainian citizens evacuated from Wuhan was anything but rational.
     
    Wrong term. It was not particularly humane, but it was quite rational.

    The media has been screaming about an out-of-control Chinese epidemic, alluding to the Spanish flu and plague. If true, the most rational reaction is to shut the gates, sacrifice the stragglers, and man the ramparts. Not all medieval behaviour was wrong.

    The complicating factor here is that some none-Ukrainians were supposed to be included. That feeds on the idea that Ukraine (or east in general) is seen as a convenient dumping ground and that Kiev elites would agree to it for a few pretty words from their betters in Brussels. That would go along with the eventual relocation of surplus migrants who have no place to go to the very fertile but depopulating Ukraine. Erdogan by himself has around 5 million to share.

    Ukie behaviour showed that they still have some self-preservation and that any long-term plans to repopulate Ukraine might run into some stone throwing. But long-term is 10-15 years and by then not only the railroad will be managed by the friendly foreign consultants. The argument that corruption prevents the locals from managing their own lives can be used for just about anything.

    The sweet fruits of Maidan and the unrequited yearning for dipping toes in the Seine. You can dip, but it will be more expensive than anyone on Maidan could imagine.

    , @anonymous coward
    Please stop insulting the Middle Ages.
  11. @Mr. Hack
    Bringing in expertise to help bring Ukrainian rail travel up to European standards by hiring a German consulting firm (I notice that they're not employing a Russian one) make a lot of sense, as Ukraine's future is in Europe, not in Russia. Ukraine's railways are a mixed bag, progress is mixed with stagnation. The main Railway Depot in Kyiv is a beautiful complex, and new railways and trains are being regularly added. It's a wise country that can admit that it still can stand to improve and goes to the best in the business and get some help:

    https://youtu.be/67jF3b0DDVo

    Bringing in expertise to help bring Ukrainian rail travel up to European standards by hiring a German consulting firm (I notice that they’re not employing a Russian one)

    Now if only Deutsche Bahn would hire consultants from one of Germany’s western or southern neighbours perhaps they too could get their rail travel up to western European standards.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Comparing German railway to the US, I’d say you don’t have much to complain about. Swiss would run trains better, but not Italians. You have to remember that Switzerland and Japan are unique in terms of trains running on time: these are the only countries where if your train is two minutes late, they start apologizing.
    , @Mr. Hack
    I wasn't aware that the German rail system is below European standards? Whatever happened to "German engineering?"
  12. @utu
    A picture of Ukrainians can be a very effective Rorschach test on Russians. Russians become less guarded and vigilant. They show their ugly and pitiful usually kept hidden feelings. It can be revealing though ultimately sad.

    It brings out the worst in many commenters here, that’s for sure.

  13. @Matra
    Bringing in expertise to help bring Ukrainian rail travel up to European standards by hiring a German consulting firm (I notice that they’re not employing a Russian one)

    Now if only Deutsche Bahn would hire consultants from one of Germany's western or southern neighbours perhaps they too could get their rail travel up to western European standards.

    Comparing German railway to the US, I’d say you don’t have much to complain about. Swiss would run trains better, but not Italians. You have to remember that Switzerland and Japan are unique in terms of trains running on time: these are the only countries where if your train is two minutes late, they start apologizing.

    • Disagree: The Wild Geese Howard
  14. So the Japanese not letting anyone off a ship, infecting and many of the passengers unnecessarily, has been more civilized?

    In the USA meanwhile, consumers have stopped going to Chinese restaurants and assault random Asian people:

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/20/us/coronavirus-racist-attacks-against-asian-americans/index.html

    Also in Australia, forcing Chinese restaurants to close:

    https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/australasia/article/3050529/coronavirus-chinese-restaurants-shut-doors-australians-shun

    Shark Fin House, which opened 30 years ago in Melbourne’s Chinatown, shut its doors last week after losing 80 per cent of its customers following the outbreak of the Covid-19 disease that originated in Wuhan.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    I checked the video just to confirm that the assault was a black guy. Unsurprisingly, it was.
    , @yakushimaru
    This world of ours is full of savages. And fools. And charlatans.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    "Doctors" and "nurses" celebrating at not having to do their job =/= implementing quarantines.

    Individual assaults, mostly on Chinese or people who look Chinese =/= a large mob stoning their "own" countrymen. Both are bad, but there's a difference.

    Chinese restaurants seeing a collapse in visitorship - well, I suspect most here are for freedom of association, and if you're an Australian, visiting a Chinese restaurant right now is probably one of the better ways to maximize your chances of getting Corona.
    , @Kratoklastes
    I'll bet they're not shunning Flower Drum or Tea House - both are significantly better places in the CBD - and guys I know who meet every week at Dainty Sichuan (in South Yarra) maintain it's still bustling (as of last Thursday: maybe they're dead now).

    In the 90s the lead-time for a mid-week lunch booking at Flower Drum was two months; it'll be much much shorter now, but not because of some novel flu that will be gone six weeks into the Northern-hemisphere spring, when clickbaiters have to find some other way to get morons to look at ads.

    Hint: if you ever find yourself at Dainty Sichuan, go for the Chongqing Hot Pot (veggie version). Im-pecc-able.
  15. @Dreadilk
    AK remember how you said Ukraine is not collapsing. I would say this is the effect of a collapsed country.

    Not wanting infected people in the country and trying to prevent them from entering means it is a collapsed country? LOL.

    I wonder if a bunch of Muslim refugees would be treated much better. I suspect not. Self-preservation instinct is strong, even if misapplied in the case of these poor people returning from China.

    • Replies: @yakushimaru
    How do you people call yourself a Christian?
    , @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    Lol..... many Russians taken from China to Tyumen to be quarantined...... Zero problem. Nice facilities too, quarantine period already passed, patients released, staff hugging each other and have already picked up their state awards.

    A girl escapes from quarantine in Saint Petersburg, adamant that all tests show she is healthy, but hadn't completed 14 days, even goes out in public to a packed court to fight roszdravnadzor from taking her back.... ZERO problem in terms of aggression to her. Same with all the other civilised and non artificial, nonscumbag countries in the world.

    In Banderastan it seems the myth of "religious, church-going" galicians, spread only by fringe-Losers, has again been exposed for the nonsense that it is. These hell-driven useless sociopaths show what they are made of.... to their own countrymen! Almost certainly an I secure its a manifestation of West vs East Ukraine with these cretins basically thinking it is acknowledgement of Galicia being a sh*thole, wasteland that it was selected for being in 2 of the 3 initial regions to keep these people(all from the useful parts on ukropia that do useful things I. E not Galicia) - and thus indulging in massive whining.

    On the other hand, I have to apologise to you in face of yet another "peremoga" for Banderastan. I said integration with the west would be minimal... but here we have Hollywood relocating to Ukraine to film scenes in Tsernopil and Lvov for the sequel film, Deliverance 2. LOL

    I wonder if your pitiful response, is again partly driven by the fact you can't speak a word of the language
    , @Dreadilk
    Yes civilized countries lack instinct of self preservation due to times being good. No surprise in Ukraine there is a panic.

    Also this with the measels outbreak indicates unhealthy information environment.
  16. @Mr. XYZ
    BTW, Anatoly, what exactly do you think caused countries such as Russia and Ukraine to develop serious problems with oligarchs after the collapse of Communism while countries such as Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, et cetera appear to have managed to avoid this fate?

    The US completely managed the oligarchy into existence. IMF “loans”, plane loads of cash, and Jewish diaspora/mafia made sure that everything was sliced up unequally. Everyone not connected to that was screwed.

    Perhaps both countries were deliberately targeted for destruction because they didn’t know which way they would go. Brzezinski had a huge hand in creating the new (completely dysfunctional) Ukraine. I remember he said “we have their money in our banks” in response to the question if oligarchs got out of line. All of this talk of “palace coups” and Maidans flow from that. Oligarchs are a feature, not a side effect, of keeping US control in post-Soviet space. They are always doing the Washington’s bidding because otherwise they would be separated from their money.

    In Central Europe this wasn’t much of a problem because they already had links to Germany and the West ready to go. They spent very little time under Communist systems.

  17. @AP
    So the Japanese not letting anyone off a ship, infecting and many of the passengers unnecessarily, has been more civilized?

    In the USA meanwhile, consumers have stopped going to Chinese restaurants and assault random Asian people:

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/20/us/coronavirus-racist-attacks-against-asian-americans/index.html

    Also in Australia, forcing Chinese restaurants to close:

    https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/australasia/article/3050529/coronavirus-chinese-restaurants-shut-doors-australians-shun

    Shark Fin House, which opened 30 years ago in Melbourne’s Chinatown, shut its doors last week after losing 80 per cent of its customers following the outbreak of the Covid-19 disease that originated in Wuhan.

    I checked the video just to confirm that the assault was a black guy. Unsurprisingly, it was.

    • Replies: @AP
    Barbaric Italy:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/02/coronavirus-prompts-hysterical-shameful-sinophobia-italy-200218071444233.html

    he deadly outbreak of a new coronavirus in China has triggered a "hysterical" and "shameful wave of Sinophobia" in Italy, according to members of the Chinese Italian community and a rights group, with Italians and tourists of Chinese and Asian origin reporting acts of violence, discrimination and harassment.

    The incidents include assaults, calls for sexual violence, insults and boycott of businesses.

    "What are you doing in Italy? Go away! You're bringing us disease," a 15-year-old Chinese Italian boy was told before he was punched and kicked in the face in the northern city of Bologna on February 2, the Bologna Today newspaper reported.

    Days later, in the southern city of Cagliari, a hospitalised 31-year-old Filipino man told La Nuova Sardegna, a local newspaper, that he had been attacked by a group of young men who thought he was Chinese and accused him of "bringing the virus" to Italy.

    In Milan, Hongqin Zhou, whose family migrated to Italy's financial capital more than three decades ago, said a taxi driver refused to drive her, telling her he feared she may have the coronavirus.

    In the central city of Florence, 22-year-old Monica Wang said she received a message on Instagram from an account she did not recognise wishing sexual violence upon Chinese people. "You Chinese are destroying the world, I hope your daughters are raped and raped again so you can learn to stay wherever you came from," said the screenshot of the message Wang received on January 30.

    Meanwhile, some public officials have asked students of Chinese and Asian origin to stay home

    In one incident, the director of Conservatorio di musica Santa Cecilia, a famous music school in the Italian capital, Rome, said lessons for all "Oriental students" including those from China, Korea and Japan would be suspended because of the "Chinese epidemic". They would only be allowed to return after a health check, he said.

    The viral outbreak has also added fodder to a long-running anti-migrant campaign by Italian far-right groups.

    Matteo Salvini, former deputy prime minister and leader of the far-right Lega Nord, called for the closure of all Italian borders on January 31, saying: "We need to stop all travel connections with China, it should have been done long ago."

    In the northern towns of Como, Brescia and Varese, posters proclaiming: "Coronavirus? Buy Italian. It's a moral duty" were plastered to the storefronts of dozens of Chinese Italian owned businesses in late January. The posters carried the logo of the far-right Forza Nuova group.
  18. @AnonFromTN
    AK is mixing apples and oranges. Handing the running of Ukrainian railway over to DB is rational. Say, when you can’t fly a plane, you entrust flying it to someone who can. If you can’t do heart surgery, you also use someone who can do it.

    The reception of Ukrainian citizens evacuated from Wuhan was anything but rational. First, several cities refused to accept them, period. The plane with evacuated Ukrainians landed several times in Ukraine and had to fly again. The fig leaf the authorities used was “refueling”. Finally, the government made it land in Poltava and under heavy armed escort poor people were transported on a bus to New Sanzhary for a two-week quarantine. Despite police protection, on the way the bus was pelted with stones. Several windows were broken. Now locals spread in social media calls for burning down the building where these people are quarantined along with its inhabitants. Comparing this to Africa is insulting: insulting to Africa. Nothing like that happened with compatriots evacuated from Wuhan in any country on Earth. This is the way crazed brainless medieval peasants would meet a load of witches. Most countries left Middle Ages behind. Some didn’t.

    Despite police protection, on the way the bus was pelted with stones. Several windows were broken. Now locals spread in social media calls for burning down the building where these people are quarantined along with its inhabitants.

    Wow, that’s kind of barbaric. Isn’t the government able to put out a PSA or something? Like, aren’t they able to just go on TV and say “assaulting people with coronavirus isn’t a good way to stop it from spreading”?

    • Replies: @AP

    Now locals spread in social media calls for burning down the building where these people are quarantined along with its inhabitants.

    Wow, that’s kind of barbaric
     
    Some random idiot on social media said to burn down the hospital. People on social media say all sorts of stupid things.

    Like, aren’t they able to just go on TV and say “assaulting people with coronavirus isn’t a good way to stop it from spreading”?
     
    The purpose is to prevent such people from entering the country from China.
    , @AnonFromTN

    Isn’t the government able to put out a PSA or something? Like, aren’t they able to just go on TV and say “assaulting people with coronavirus isn’t a good way to stop it from spreading”?
     
    This might have worked somewhere, but not in Ukraine. The credibility of the government there in the eyes of the populace is not just low, it’s negative. If the government told them “don’t do this”, they would have taken it as solid proof that this is exactly what should be done.
  19. @Matra
    Bringing in expertise to help bring Ukrainian rail travel up to European standards by hiring a German consulting firm (I notice that they’re not employing a Russian one)

    Now if only Deutsche Bahn would hire consultants from one of Germany's western or southern neighbours perhaps they too could get their rail travel up to western European standards.

    I wasn’t aware that the German rail system is below European standards? Whatever happened to “German engineering?”

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    I wasn’t aware that the German rail system is below European standards? Whatever happened to “German engineering?”
     
    The absolutely excellent Chinese high-speed railway system was designed with the help of German and Japanese companies, so technology shouldn't be the issue, yet somehow German domestic trains are lacklustre.

    However, it seems unlikely the issue will be fixed as long as an improper and incompetent government is still in place in Berlin.
    , @utu
    "I wasn’t aware that the German rail system is below European standards? " - No, it is not.

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2017/transportation-travel-tourism-2017-european-railway-performance-index.aspx
    Three groupings of national railways emerged from the analysis:

    Tier One (RPI of at least 6 out of 10). Switzerland, Denmark, Finland, ­Germany, Austria, Sweden, and France.

    Tier Two (RPI between 4.5 and 6). Great Britain, the Netherlands, ­Luxembourg, Spain, the Czech Republic, Norway, Belgium, and Italy.

    Tier Three (RPI below 4.5). Lithuania, Slovenia, Ireland, Hungary, Latvia, Slovakia, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Bulgaria.


    Tier One. The railways in tier one perform well in at least two dimensions, although the results were not uniform.

    Switzerland. With a rating of 7.2 overall, Switzerland has excellent intensity of use, notably driven by passenger traffic. It also has a good rating for quality of service and a very good rating for safety.

    Denmark. At 6.8, Denmark has an excellent rating for safety, a very good rating for intensity of use, and a good rating for quality of service.

    Finland. The country’s overall rating is 6.6. Finland has a very good rating for intensity of use, notably driven by freight traffic, as well as for quality and safety.

    Germany. With an overall score of 6.1, Germany has a very good rating for intensity of use, by both passengers and freight. It has good ratings for quality of service and safety.

    Austria. The country is rated at 6.1, overall. Austria’s excellent rating for intensity of use, by both passengers and freight, is tied for second highest in the index. However, its safety rating of good is among the lowest outside of tier three. It also has a good rating for quality of service.

    Sweden. At 6.0, Sweden has an excellent rating for intensity of use by both passengers and freight and a very good rating for safety. However, it has a poor rating for quality of service, mainly because of lower punctuality than other tier one countries.

    France. France’s rating of 6.0 overall is driven by very good ratings for intensity of use by passengers and for quality of service and safety.
     
    , @Matra
    My own personal experiences have been disappointing compared to all its neighbours. I may have just had bad luck but it also in accord with the experiences of a number of acquaintances.

    We are becoming a joke: Germans turn on Deutsche Bahn
  20. @Denis

    Despite police protection, on the way the bus was pelted with stones. Several windows were broken. Now locals spread in social media calls for burning down the building where these people are quarantined along with its inhabitants.
     
    Wow, that's kind of barbaric. Isn't the government able to put out a PSA or something? Like, aren't they able to just go on TV and say "assaulting people with coronavirus isn't a good way to stop it from spreading"?

    Now locals spread in social media calls for burning down the building where these people are quarantined along with its inhabitants.

    Wow, that’s kind of barbaric

    Some random idiot on social media said to burn down the hospital. People on social media say all sorts of stupid things.

    Like, aren’t they able to just go on TV and say “assaulting people with coronavirus isn’t a good way to stop it from spreading”?

    The purpose is to prevent such people from entering the country from China.

  21. @EldnahYm
    I checked the video just to confirm that the assault was a black guy. Unsurprisingly, it was.

    Barbaric Italy:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/02/coronavirus-prompts-hysterical-shameful-sinophobia-italy-200218071444233.html

    he deadly outbreak of a new coronavirus in China has triggered a “hysterical” and “shameful wave of Sinophobia” in Italy, according to members of the Chinese Italian community and a rights group, with Italians and tourists of Chinese and Asian origin reporting acts of violence, discrimination and harassment.

    The incidents include assaults, calls for sexual violence, insults and boycott of businesses.

    “What are you doing in Italy? Go away! You’re bringing us disease,” a 15-year-old Chinese Italian boy was told before he was punched and kicked in the face in the northern city of Bologna on February 2, the Bologna Today newspaper reported.

    Days later, in the southern city of Cagliari, a hospitalised 31-year-old Filipino man told La Nuova Sardegna, a local newspaper, that he had been attacked by a group of young men who thought he was Chinese and accused him of “bringing the virus” to Italy.

    In Milan, Hongqin Zhou, whose family migrated to Italy’s financial capital more than three decades ago, said a taxi driver refused to drive her, telling her he feared she may have the coronavirus.

    In the central city of Florence, 22-year-old Monica Wang said she received a message on Instagram from an account she did not recognise wishing sexual violence upon Chinese people. “You Chinese are destroying the world, I hope your daughters are raped and raped again so you can learn to stay wherever you came from,” said the screenshot of the message Wang received on January 30.

    Meanwhile, some public officials have asked students of Chinese and Asian origin to stay home

    In one incident, the director of Conservatorio di musica Santa Cecilia, a famous music school in the Italian capital, Rome, said lessons for all “Oriental students” including those from China, Korea and Japan would be suspended because of the “Chinese epidemic”. They would only be allowed to return after a health check, he said.

    The viral outbreak has also added fodder to a long-running anti-migrant campaign by Italian far-right groups.

    Matteo Salvini, former deputy prime minister and leader of the far-right Lega Nord, called for the closure of all Italian borders on January 31, saying: “We need to stop all travel connections with China, it should have been done long ago.”

    In the northern towns of Como, Brescia and Varese, posters proclaiming: “Coronavirus? Buy Italian. It’s a moral duty” were plastered to the storefronts of dozens of Chinese Italian owned businesses in late January. The posters carried the logo of the far-right Forza Nuova group.

  22. @Mr. XYZ
    BTW, Anatoly, what exactly do you think caused countries such as Russia and Ukraine to develop serious problems with oligarchs after the collapse of Communism while countries such as Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, et cetera appear to have managed to avoid this fate?

    The oligarchy of those places is just in W EU & London

    • Agree: mal
  23. To continue the pile-on, barbaric Trump was “furious” that Americans with coronavirus were allowed into the USA:

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/21/politics/trump-coronavirus-cruise-ship/index.htmlPresident

    [MORE]

    Donald Trump became enraged with senior advisers this week when 14 Americans who tested positive for the coronavirus were brought back to the US from Japan after he had been told they would remain quarantined overseas, administration officials told The Washington Post.

    The President was first told that Americans who were aboard the Diamond Princess cruise ship, where the coronavirus has spread, would be flown back to the US on two planes but that patients with the infection or with symptoms would stay in Japan, where the ship is anchored, the newspaper reported.
    However, the State Department and a US health official decided to bring back the infected Americans on the planes and place them in isolation without telling the President, the Post said.
    Administration officials told the Post that Trump learned of the reversal only after the fact and complained that the decision might damage his administration’s handling of the outbreak.

  24. Ukraine is one of the countries where “everyone of value has long since emigrated” is quite true. I had the (mis)fortune of working with some of their developers recently and boy was that a treat.

  25. @Mr. Hack
    I wasn't aware that the German rail system is below European standards? Whatever happened to "German engineering?"

    I wasn’t aware that the German rail system is below European standards? Whatever happened to “German engineering?”

    The absolutely excellent Chinese high-speed railway system was designed with the help of German and Japanese companies, so technology shouldn’t be the issue, yet somehow German domestic trains are lacklustre.

    However, it seems unlikely the issue will be fixed as long as an improper and incompetent government is still in place in Berlin.

  26. @AP
    So the Japanese not letting anyone off a ship, infecting and many of the passengers unnecessarily, has been more civilized?

    In the USA meanwhile, consumers have stopped going to Chinese restaurants and assault random Asian people:

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/20/us/coronavirus-racist-attacks-against-asian-americans/index.html

    Also in Australia, forcing Chinese restaurants to close:

    https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/australasia/article/3050529/coronavirus-chinese-restaurants-shut-doors-australians-shun

    Shark Fin House, which opened 30 years ago in Melbourne’s Chinatown, shut its doors last week after losing 80 per cent of its customers following the outbreak of the Covid-19 disease that originated in Wuhan.

    This world of ours is full of savages. And fools. And charlatans.

  27. @AP
    Not wanting infected people in the country and trying to prevent them from entering means it is a collapsed country? LOL.

    I wonder if a bunch of Muslim refugees would be treated much better. I suspect not. Self-preservation instinct is strong, even if misapplied in the case of these poor people returning from China.

    How do you people call yourself a Christian?

  28. Ukraine handed over the operation of its railways to German state operator Deutsche Bahn for a period of ten years

    Is this (Deutsche Bahn) a good company? During my short stay in Germany, all the trains were late. In Austria, on the other hand, all trains ran strictly on schedule. Perhaps it was better for Ukraine to turn to the Austrians

    • Agree: AP
  29. @AnonFromTN
    AK is mixing apples and oranges. Handing the running of Ukrainian railway over to DB is rational. Say, when you can’t fly a plane, you entrust flying it to someone who can. If you can’t do heart surgery, you also use someone who can do it.

    The reception of Ukrainian citizens evacuated from Wuhan was anything but rational. First, several cities refused to accept them, period. The plane with evacuated Ukrainians landed several times in Ukraine and had to fly again. The fig leaf the authorities used was “refueling”. Finally, the government made it land in Poltava and under heavy armed escort poor people were transported on a bus to New Sanzhary for a two-week quarantine. Despite police protection, on the way the bus was pelted with stones. Several windows were broken. Now locals spread in social media calls for burning down the building where these people are quarantined along with its inhabitants. Comparing this to Africa is insulting: insulting to Africa. Nothing like that happened with compatriots evacuated from Wuhan in any country on Earth. This is the way crazed brainless medieval peasants would meet a load of witches. Most countries left Middle Ages behind. Some didn’t.

    …The reception of Ukrainian citizens evacuated from Wuhan was anything but rational.

    Wrong term. It was not particularly humane, but it was quite rational.

    The media has been screaming about an out-of-control Chinese epidemic, alluding to the Spanish flu and plague. If true, the most rational reaction is to shut the gates, sacrifice the stragglers, and man the ramparts. Not all medieval behaviour was wrong.

    The complicating factor here is that some none-Ukrainians were supposed to be included. That feeds on the idea that Ukraine (or east in general) is seen as a convenient dumping ground and that Kiev elites would agree to it for a few pretty words from their betters in Brussels. That would go along with the eventual relocation of surplus migrants who have no place to go to the very fertile but depopulating Ukraine. Erdogan by himself has around 5 million to share.

    Ukie behaviour showed that they still have some self-preservation and that any long-term plans to repopulate Ukraine might run into some stone throwing. But long-term is 10-15 years and by then not only the railroad will be managed by the friendly foreign consultants. The argument that corruption prevents the locals from managing their own lives can be used for just about anything.

    The sweet fruits of Maidan and the unrequited yearning for dipping toes in the Seine. You can dip, but it will be more expensive than anyone on Maidan could imagine.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    You have to pay for a quality product, right? Or is that something that they forgot to teach you in Sovok school?
    , @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    In the face of actual epidemics in Ukraine of Measles (killed more people in ukropia in the last 1 and 2 years than Coronovirus has to anyone outside of China).... this recent farce is particularly shameful. Arguably in the last 6 years on everything from infrastructure to corruption to health care.... the health department has been the worst sector since euromaidan.... in a crowded marketplace
    , @AnonFromTN
    Some medieval behaviors were rational. However, pelting buses with potentially infected people with stones and breaking windows was totally irrational. It could have only facilitated the spread of the virus.

    However, you can’t expect rationality from the people doing these things. They assume that if their government is doing something, it would harm them. What’s more, they are right about 99% of the time.
  30. @Mr. XYZ
    BTW, Anatoly, what exactly do you think caused countries such as Russia and Ukraine to develop serious problems with oligarchs after the collapse of Communism while countries such as Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, et cetera appear to have managed to avoid this fate?

    I need to point out that Hungary does have Soros, one of the worlds most famous Oligarchs.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    He has lived in exile for decades, though--no?
  31. @AnonFromTN
    AK is mixing apples and oranges. Handing the running of Ukrainian railway over to DB is rational. Say, when you can’t fly a plane, you entrust flying it to someone who can. If you can’t do heart surgery, you also use someone who can do it.

    The reception of Ukrainian citizens evacuated from Wuhan was anything but rational. First, several cities refused to accept them, period. The plane with evacuated Ukrainians landed several times in Ukraine and had to fly again. The fig leaf the authorities used was “refueling”. Finally, the government made it land in Poltava and under heavy armed escort poor people were transported on a bus to New Sanzhary for a two-week quarantine. Despite police protection, on the way the bus was pelted with stones. Several windows were broken. Now locals spread in social media calls for burning down the building where these people are quarantined along with its inhabitants. Comparing this to Africa is insulting: insulting to Africa. Nothing like that happened with compatriots evacuated from Wuhan in any country on Earth. This is the way crazed brainless medieval peasants would meet a load of witches. Most countries left Middle Ages behind. Some didn’t.

    Please stop insulting the Middle Ages.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Please stop insulting the Middle Ages
     
    Fair point. My bad.
  32. @Mr. XYZ
    BTW, Anatoly, what exactly do you think caused countries such as Russia and Ukraine to develop serious problems with oligarchs after the collapse of Communism while countries such as Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, et cetera appear to have managed to avoid this fate?

    Some of it is natural resources, oligarchy really thrives when there are easy things to grab. But in V4 people also watch each other more closely and they are (in)famously process heavy with middle-aged ladies in charge of all documents. Those Habsburg-leftover mammas are unmovable, so even oligarchs have to play nice.

    We have oligarchs, you could call Andrej Babis – the current Czech prime minister and the future EU boss – an oligarch. Babis made his billions developing agriculture and fertilizers in the 90’s. His insight was that after 40 years of collective farming there was a huge opportunity in efficient production and distribution.

    The real thieves are too scared of the office ladies asking for notarized, translated documents in triplicate, no older than 60 days, and reading 80-page instruction pamphlets written by baboons and posted behind the bathroom on an unknown floor – so they are mostly hiding out in places like Belize and Mali. Could we ship some of these ladies to Ukraine? They don’t need German consultants, they need bitter dead-ender spinsters with an attitude and 4-hour week, it would improve both places…

  33. Would not be so sure about real fatality rate being around 1% – even from official numbers there already has been over 25 thousand cases which had an outcome (recovery or death) and official death rate for those finished cases is 10%. The only good thing that it is trending down as two weeks ago it was 19% with over 6000 finished cases but it is still horribly high and just from official data, when we know there are more than plenty of people dying which are not counted anyhow in official stats for this virus.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    Also, some info is begining to seep out regarding the real condition of some those officially “recovered”:

    Hong Kong iCable News: (Translated) Xiao Chow’s father was confirmed on Jan 15 and admitted into a hospital in Wuhan 8 days later. He was later discharged on Feb 11. Shortly after, her father showed symptoms again. On the night of discharge, he was coughing and had breathing difficulties. Three days later, he had a fever. On the next day, he was admitted into another hospital. He is now in critical condition. Xiao Chow told us that her father told the doctor he wasn’t feeling well two days before discharge. “I feel like my father was forced to be discharged because he already told the doctors he had stomach pain, no appetite and felt nauseous, but the doctors didn’t care and discharged him regardless.”, she said.

    According to the latest guidelines, hospital discharge of Wuhan virus patients must satisfy four conditions. One of them being “major improvement in chest condition”. However, Xiao Chow’s father discharge letter reads “minor improvement in chest condition” falling short of the requirement.

    Recently, some Wuhan doctors posted details about the approach China has taken to discharge patients without improvement in order to increase discharge and recovery rates. The post has now been censored.

    from r/China_Flu/comments/f7sknp/china_forces_patients_to_discharge_from_hospitals/

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Would not be so sure about real fatality rate being around 1% – even from official numbers there already has been over 25 thousand cases which had an outcome (recovery or death) and official death rate for those finished cases is 10%.
     
    Correct. However, it's also been increasingly firmly established that only that only 10% of Corona cases are detected. Which cancels out that 10%.
    , @china-russia-all-the-way
    February 23: 19 confirmed cases outside of Hubei. The virus is winding down outside of the epicenter province.

    https://mmbiz.qpic.cn/mmbiz_png/MoyiaicTmjF5iaHCOvfAMqG45ID2w2MUibB5KNtiaXjoKGDkSYoseRaCxKNzFDvmjCrhLZkq1tGzS9USxd9C9tEFUYA/640?wx_fmt=png&tp=webp&wxfrom=5&wx_lazy=1&wx_co=1
  34. This will be ugly, and I suspect not just in the Ukraine. The whole world is unprepared for this. Except maybe Africa, though the outcome won’t be pretty there either (but they are more resilient).

    Italy also locks down towns, but Europe still hasn’t closed air traffic to China, and our leaders still say inanities like “we are fully prepared.” Xi Jinping will not be the worst looking leader here.

    • Replies: @AP

    Europe still hasn’t closed air traffic to China, and our leaders still say inanities like “we are fully prepared.”
     
    Ukrainian villagers have a more realistic, helpful, and healthy response than European leaders.
  35. @Dreadilk
    AK remember how you said Ukraine is not collapsing. I would say this is the effect of a collapsed country.

    Gabon is not collapsing either, Ukrainians can probably chug along indefinitely

    • Agree: Aedib
    • Replies: @Dreadilk
    Gabon does not qualify as a working government in the first place.
  36. @utu
    A picture of Ukrainians can be a very effective Rorschach test on Russians. Russians become less guarded and vigilant. They show their ugly and pitiful usually kept hidden feelings. It can be revealing though ultimately sad.

    >The butthurt belter cries out in pain as he insults you

  37. • Replies: @sudden death
    Now the million dollar question is are those "cured/recovered" still infectious after treatment or simply quite soon reinfected again straight after/during release?
  38. @reiner Tor
    Cured patients are still infectious.

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3051966/coronavirus-wuhan-quarantine-all-cured-patients-14-days-after

    Now the million dollar question is are those “cured/recovered” still infectious after treatment or simply quite soon reinfected again straight after/during release?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    They are still healthy, so either way it’s not a confirmation of the earlier rumor that it’s worse the second time.
  39. @AP
    So the Japanese not letting anyone off a ship, infecting and many of the passengers unnecessarily, has been more civilized?

    In the USA meanwhile, consumers have stopped going to Chinese restaurants and assault random Asian people:

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/20/us/coronavirus-racist-attacks-against-asian-americans/index.html

    Also in Australia, forcing Chinese restaurants to close:

    https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/australasia/article/3050529/coronavirus-chinese-restaurants-shut-doors-australians-shun

    Shark Fin House, which opened 30 years ago in Melbourne’s Chinatown, shut its doors last week after losing 80 per cent of its customers following the outbreak of the Covid-19 disease that originated in Wuhan.

    “Doctors” and “nurses” celebrating at not having to do their job =/= implementing quarantines.

    Individual assaults, mostly on Chinese or people who look Chinese =/= a large mob stoning their “own” countrymen. Both are bad, but there’s a difference.

    Chinese restaurants seeing a collapse in visitorship – well, I suspect most here are for freedom of association, and if you’re an Australian, visiting a Chinese restaurant right now is probably one of the better ways to maximize your chances of getting Corona.

    • Agree: Dreadilk
    • Replies: @AP

    “Doctors” and “nurses” celebrating at not having to do their job =/= implementing quarantines.
     
    I don't know of any hospital staff anywhere who wouldn't be thrilled when getting the news that they would not be exposed to people with a contagious deadly illness.

    They would of course do their jobs and help those people as best they could, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be celebrating if getting the news that they and their families wouldn't be exposed to potentially infected people. In China a lot of nurses and doctors have become infected and some have died.

    As for your quotes around the doctors and nurses there - life expectancy in Lviv oblast is higher than in most of Russia. While lifestyle factors play a large role in this it does suggest that the hospitals aren't worse than Russian ones.

    Individual assaults, mostly on Chinese or people who look Chinese =/= a large mob stoning their “own” countrymen.
     
    Fair point, OTOH in Ukraine several foreigners were taken in to quarantine also. The protests will force the government to think twice before doing things like that. Ukrainian people stand up for themselves even if in this particular case it is rather questionable.
  40. @sudden death
    Would not be so sure about real fatality rate being around 1% - even from official numbers there already has been over 25 thousand cases which had an outcome (recovery or death) and official death rate for those finished cases is 10%. The only good thing that it is trending down as two weeks ago it was 19% with over 6000 finished cases but it is still horribly high and just from official data, when we know there are more than plenty of people dying which are not counted anyhow in official stats for this virus.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    Also, some info is begining to seep out regarding the real condition of some those officially "recovered":

    Hong Kong iCable News: (Translated) Xiao Chow's father was confirmed on Jan 15 and admitted into a hospital in Wuhan 8 days later. He was later discharged on Feb 11. Shortly after, her father showed symptoms again. On the night of discharge, he was coughing and had breathing difficulties. Three days later, he had a fever. On the next day, he was admitted into another hospital. He is now in critical condition. Xiao Chow told us that her father told the doctor he wasn't feeling well two days before discharge. "I feel like my father was forced to be discharged because he already told the doctors he had stomach pain, no appetite and felt nauseous, but the doctors didn't care and discharged him regardless.", she said.

    According to the latest guidelines, hospital discharge of Wuhan virus patients must satisfy four conditions. One of them being "major improvement in chest condition". However, Xiao Chow's father discharge letter reads "minor improvement in chest condition" falling short of the requirement.

    Recently, some Wuhan doctors posted details about the approach China has taken to discharge patients without improvement in order to increase discharge and recovery rates. The post has now been censored.
     
    from r/China_Flu/comments/f7sknp/china_forces_patients_to_discharge_from_hospitals/

    Would not be so sure about real fatality rate being around 1% – even from official numbers there already has been over 25 thousand cases which had an outcome (recovery or death) and official death rate for those finished cases is 10%.

    Correct. However, it’s also been increasingly firmly established that only that only 10% of Corona cases are detected. Which cancels out that 10%.

  41. @Mr. Hack
    I wasn't aware that the German rail system is below European standards? Whatever happened to "German engineering?"

    “I wasn’t aware that the German rail system is below European standards? “ – No, it is not.

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2017/transportation-travel-tourism-2017-european-railway-performance-index.aspx
    Three groupings of national railways emerged from the analysis:

    Tier One (RPI of at least 6 out of 10). Switzerland, Denmark, Finland, ­Germany, Austria, Sweden, and France.

    Tier Two (RPI between 4.5 and 6). Great Britain, the Netherlands, ­Luxembourg, Spain, the Czech Republic, Norway, Belgium, and Italy.

    Tier Three (RPI below 4.5). Lithuania, Slovenia, Ireland, Hungary, Latvia, Slovakia, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Bulgaria.

    Tier One. The railways in tier one perform well in at least two dimensions, although the results were not uniform.

    Switzerland. With a rating of 7.2 overall, Switzerland has excellent intensity of use, notably driven by passenger traffic. It also has a good rating for quality of service and a very good rating for safety.

    Denmark. At 6.8, Denmark has an excellent rating for safety, a very good rating for intensity of use, and a good rating for quality of service.

    Finland. The country’s overall rating is 6.6. Finland has a very good rating for intensity of use, notably driven by freight traffic, as well as for quality and safety.

    Germany. With an overall score of 6.1, Germany has a very good rating for intensity of use, by both passengers and freight. It has good ratings for quality of service and safety.

    Austria. The country is rated at 6.1, overall. Austria’s excellent rating for intensity of use, by both passengers and freight, is tied for second highest in the index. However, its safety rating of good is among the lowest outside of tier three. It also has a good rating for quality of service.

    Sweden. At 6.0, Sweden has an excellent rating for intensity of use by both passengers and freight and a very good rating for safety. However, it has a poor rating for quality of service, mainly because of lower punctuality than other tier one countries.

    France. France’s rating of 6.0 overall is driven by very good ratings for intensity of use by passengers and for quality of service and safety.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack, AP
    • Replies: @Pericles
    God help the other railways if Sweden is Tier One/6.0. The only services that seem to work, with only the occasional hour-long outages, are the commuter lines between Stockholm and nearby cities. Well, perhaps the prestige X2000 Stockholm - Gothenburg line works reasonably well too.
  42. @AP
    Not wanting infected people in the country and trying to prevent them from entering means it is a collapsed country? LOL.

    I wonder if a bunch of Muslim refugees would be treated much better. I suspect not. Self-preservation instinct is strong, even if misapplied in the case of these poor people returning from China.

    Lol….. many Russians taken from China to Tyumen to be quarantined…… Zero problem. Nice facilities too, quarantine period already passed, patients released, staff hugging each other and have already picked up their state awards.

    A girl escapes from quarantine in Saint Petersburg, adamant that all tests show she is healthy, but hadn’t completed 14 days, even goes out in public to a packed court to fight roszdravnadzor from taking her back…. ZERO problem in terms of aggression to her. Same with all the other civilised and non artificial, nonscumbag countries in the world.

    In Banderastan it seems the myth of “religious, church-going” galicians, spread only by fringe-Losers, has again been exposed for the nonsense that it is. These hell-driven useless sociopaths show what they are made of…. to their own countrymen! Almost certainly an I secure its a manifestation of West vs East Ukraine with these cretins basically thinking it is acknowledgement of Galicia being a sh*thole, wasteland that it was selected for being in 2 of the 3 initial regions to keep these people(all from the useful parts on ukropia that do useful things I. E not Galicia) – and thus indulging in massive whining.

    On the other hand, I have to apologise to you in face of yet another “peremoga” for Banderastan. I said integration with the west would be minimal… but here we have Hollywood relocating to Ukraine to film scenes in Tsernopil and Lvov for the sequel film, Deliverance 2. LOL

    I wonder if your pitiful response, is again partly driven by the fact you can’t speak a word of the language

    • LOL: Aedib
  43. @Beckow

    ...The reception of Ukrainian citizens evacuated from Wuhan was anything but rational.
     
    Wrong term. It was not particularly humane, but it was quite rational.

    The media has been screaming about an out-of-control Chinese epidemic, alluding to the Spanish flu and plague. If true, the most rational reaction is to shut the gates, sacrifice the stragglers, and man the ramparts. Not all medieval behaviour was wrong.

    The complicating factor here is that some none-Ukrainians were supposed to be included. That feeds on the idea that Ukraine (or east in general) is seen as a convenient dumping ground and that Kiev elites would agree to it for a few pretty words from their betters in Brussels. That would go along with the eventual relocation of surplus migrants who have no place to go to the very fertile but depopulating Ukraine. Erdogan by himself has around 5 million to share.

    Ukie behaviour showed that they still have some self-preservation and that any long-term plans to repopulate Ukraine might run into some stone throwing. But long-term is 10-15 years and by then not only the railroad will be managed by the friendly foreign consultants. The argument that corruption prevents the locals from managing their own lives can be used for just about anything.

    The sweet fruits of Maidan and the unrequited yearning for dipping toes in the Seine. You can dip, but it will be more expensive than anyone on Maidan could imagine.

    You have to pay for a quality product, right? Or is that something that they forgot to teach you in Sovok school?

    • Replies: @Beckow

    You have to pay for a quality product, right?
     
    That's a weird response. So Maidan happened with an understanding that there will be costs that West will impose? Including repopulating Ukraine, taking its arable lands, etc...? Maybe you are right, one should never underestimate self-loathing in Eastern Europe.

    Or are you just very simple minded and think this is a weekend trip to Ikea?
  44. @Beckow

    ...The reception of Ukrainian citizens evacuated from Wuhan was anything but rational.
     
    Wrong term. It was not particularly humane, but it was quite rational.

    The media has been screaming about an out-of-control Chinese epidemic, alluding to the Spanish flu and plague. If true, the most rational reaction is to shut the gates, sacrifice the stragglers, and man the ramparts. Not all medieval behaviour was wrong.

    The complicating factor here is that some none-Ukrainians were supposed to be included. That feeds on the idea that Ukraine (or east in general) is seen as a convenient dumping ground and that Kiev elites would agree to it for a few pretty words from their betters in Brussels. That would go along with the eventual relocation of surplus migrants who have no place to go to the very fertile but depopulating Ukraine. Erdogan by himself has around 5 million to share.

    Ukie behaviour showed that they still have some self-preservation and that any long-term plans to repopulate Ukraine might run into some stone throwing. But long-term is 10-15 years and by then not only the railroad will be managed by the friendly foreign consultants. The argument that corruption prevents the locals from managing their own lives can be used for just about anything.

    The sweet fruits of Maidan and the unrequited yearning for dipping toes in the Seine. You can dip, but it will be more expensive than anyone on Maidan could imagine.

    In the face of actual epidemics in Ukraine of Measles (killed more people in ukropia in the last 1 and 2 years than Coronovirus has to anyone outside of China)…. this recent farce is particularly shameful. Arguably in the last 6 years on everything from infrastructure to corruption to health care…. the health department has been the worst sector since euromaidan…. in a crowded marketplace

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    I forgot to write Diphtheria too. TB
    , @Beckow

    In the face of actual epidemics in Ukraine of Measles (killed more people in ukropia in the last 1 and 2 years than Coronovirus has to anyone outside of China
     
    You are missing the point. Those two events are not related; you can have the worst internal health system in Europe (probably true about Ukraine), and still stand for your own when foreign plague threatens.

    To you it looks 'shameful' because you are in a mistaken belief that there has to be some consistency or harmony in the world in the way people behave. There doesn't. This is the same problem Kremlin has when they vainly appeal to the West. Until you internalise that there are no rules, no values, and no consistency, they will keep on walking all over you. One of the greatest strengths that West has is the complete disregard for any rules or fair-play. Learn from it instead of failing again and again. Ukies stoning the buses showed some balls, maybe there is hope for them.
  45. @utu
    "I wasn’t aware that the German rail system is below European standards? " - No, it is not.

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2017/transportation-travel-tourism-2017-european-railway-performance-index.aspx
    Three groupings of national railways emerged from the analysis:

    Tier One (RPI of at least 6 out of 10). Switzerland, Denmark, Finland, ­Germany, Austria, Sweden, and France.

    Tier Two (RPI between 4.5 and 6). Great Britain, the Netherlands, ­Luxembourg, Spain, the Czech Republic, Norway, Belgium, and Italy.

    Tier Three (RPI below 4.5). Lithuania, Slovenia, Ireland, Hungary, Latvia, Slovakia, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Bulgaria.


    Tier One. The railways in tier one perform well in at least two dimensions, although the results were not uniform.

    Switzerland. With a rating of 7.2 overall, Switzerland has excellent intensity of use, notably driven by passenger traffic. It also has a good rating for quality of service and a very good rating for safety.

    Denmark. At 6.8, Denmark has an excellent rating for safety, a very good rating for intensity of use, and a good rating for quality of service.

    Finland. The country’s overall rating is 6.6. Finland has a very good rating for intensity of use, notably driven by freight traffic, as well as for quality and safety.

    Germany. With an overall score of 6.1, Germany has a very good rating for intensity of use, by both passengers and freight. It has good ratings for quality of service and safety.

    Austria. The country is rated at 6.1, overall. Austria’s excellent rating for intensity of use, by both passengers and freight, is tied for second highest in the index. However, its safety rating of good is among the lowest outside of tier three. It also has a good rating for quality of service.

    Sweden. At 6.0, Sweden has an excellent rating for intensity of use by both passengers and freight and a very good rating for safety. However, it has a poor rating for quality of service, mainly because of lower punctuality than other tier one countries.

    France. France’s rating of 6.0 overall is driven by very good ratings for intensity of use by passengers and for quality of service and safety.
     

    God help the other railways if Sweden is Tier One/6.0. The only services that seem to work, with only the occasional hour-long outages, are the commuter lines between Stockholm and nearby cities. Well, perhaps the prestige X2000 Stockholm – Gothenburg line works reasonably well too.

    • Replies: @utu
    Didn't they say it: "However, it has a poor rating for quality of service, mainly because of lower punctuality than other tier one countries." - Anyway, I had only very brief experience with Swedish trains and it was over 40 years ago and it was OK in terms of quality but nothing impressive. Not better than Austrian, East German or Czechoslovak trains at that time.
  46. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    In the face of actual epidemics in Ukraine of Measles (killed more people in ukropia in the last 1 and 2 years than Coronovirus has to anyone outside of China).... this recent farce is particularly shameful. Arguably in the last 6 years on everything from infrastructure to corruption to health care.... the health department has been the worst sector since euromaidan.... in a crowded marketplace

    I forgot to write Diphtheria too. TB

  47. @Korenchkin
    Gabon is not collapsing either, Ukrainians can probably chug along indefinitely

    Gabon does not qualify as a working government in the first place.

    • Replies: @AP
    Gabon has a higher per capital GDP than Belarus.
  48. @AP
    Not wanting infected people in the country and trying to prevent them from entering means it is a collapsed country? LOL.

    I wonder if a bunch of Muslim refugees would be treated much better. I suspect not. Self-preservation instinct is strong, even if misapplied in the case of these poor people returning from China.

    Yes civilized countries lack instinct of self preservation due to times being good. No surprise in Ukraine there is a panic.

    Also this with the measels outbreak indicates unhealthy information environment.

    • Replies: @AP
    Given that Russia is in second place regarding the measles outbreak, this is not something for Russians to brag about.
  49. @songbird
    Looking over the Ukrainian national anthem, I think it has a common fault with many other national anthems: it evokes war and battle, but not disease.

    I'm not even kidding. To most people nowadays, the Donbass aside, war is an abstraction. We live under a nuclear umbrella of peace. The threat is not military. It is globohomo, which is more properly labeled a disease.

    It is also a dull anthem, melodically… one which the lyrics only merely cements ukraine/404 as a loser-mentality nation.

    I am not too keen on the Tryzub symbol either. It is too much like the swastika symbols for Nazis (a Hindu symbol), in other words a religious-connotation symbol from over a millennium ago, used for semi-paganistic reason and no connection to the modern day state at all. Bizarre.

    The black part on the UPA flag made plenty of sense ( fertile black soil of Ukraine) until you realise that Galicia is by far the least black earth region of Ukraine..and that most of the UPA sadist commanders never even saw any of this famous black soil in their pathetic lifetimes…. thus making the decision to have it on the flag a strange one.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Does anybody really give a hoot what you're keen on? Even you're fellow Russophiles find your monotonous disrespectful dialogue to be "Bizarre" to say the least.
  50. @sudden death
    Now the million dollar question is are those "cured/recovered" still infectious after treatment or simply quite soon reinfected again straight after/during release?

    They are still healthy, so either way it’s not a confirmation of the earlier rumor that it’s worse the second time.

  51. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    It is also a dull anthem, melodically... one which the lyrics only merely cements ukraine/404 as a loser-mentality nation.

    I am not too keen on the Tryzub symbol either. It is too much like the swastika symbols for Nazis (a Hindu symbol), in other words a religious-connotation symbol from over a millennium ago, used for semi-paganistic reason and no connection to the modern day state at all. Bizarre.

    The black part on the UPA flag made plenty of sense ( fertile black soil of Ukraine) until you realise that Galicia is by far the least black earth region of Ukraine..and that most of the UPA sadist commanders never even saw any of this famous black soil in their pathetic lifetimes.... thus making the decision to have it on the flag a strange one.

    Does anybody really give a hoot what you’re keen on? Even you’re fellow Russophiles find your monotonous disrespectful dialogue to be “Bizarre” to say the least.

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    You're a great guy Mr Hack, comedic but great. You are the embodiment of peace, democracy and human rights,

    So please be honest with me..... when you regularly fantasise about me shirtless, what colour underwear, if any, am I wearing?
  52. @Pericles
    God help the other railways if Sweden is Tier One/6.0. The only services that seem to work, with only the occasional hour-long outages, are the commuter lines between Stockholm and nearby cities. Well, perhaps the prestige X2000 Stockholm - Gothenburg line works reasonably well too.

    Didn’t they say it: “However, it has a poor rating for quality of service, mainly because of lower punctuality than other tier one countries.” – Anyway, I had only very brief experience with Swedish trains and it was over 40 years ago and it was OK in terms of quality but nothing impressive. Not better than Austrian, East German or Czechoslovak trains at that time.

  53. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    In the face of actual epidemics in Ukraine of Measles (killed more people in ukropia in the last 1 and 2 years than Coronovirus has to anyone outside of China).... this recent farce is particularly shameful. Arguably in the last 6 years on everything from infrastructure to corruption to health care.... the health department has been the worst sector since euromaidan.... in a crowded marketplace

    In the face of actual epidemics in Ukraine of Measles (killed more people in ukropia in the last 1 and 2 years than Coronovirus has to anyone outside of China

    You are missing the point. Those two events are not related; you can have the worst internal health system in Europe (probably true about Ukraine), and still stand for your own when foreign plague threatens.

    To you it looks ‘shameful‘ because you are in a mistaken belief that there has to be some consistency or harmony in the world in the way people behave. There doesn’t. This is the same problem Kremlin has when they vainly appeal to the West. Until you internalise that there are no rules, no values, and no consistency, they will keep on walking all over you. One of the greatest strengths that West has is the complete disregard for any rules or fair-play. Learn from it instead of failing again and again. Ukies stoning the buses showed some balls, maybe there is hope for them.

    • Replies: @AP

    Ukies stoning the buses showed some balls
     
    It’s a similar to what was expressed in Maidan. Some Russians hate that about Ukrainians so they can’t help but condemn it in this case also.
  54. @reiner Tor
    This will be ugly, and I suspect not just in the Ukraine. The whole world is unprepared for this. Except maybe Africa, though the outcome won’t be pretty there either (but they are more resilient).

    Italy also locks down towns, but Europe still hasn’t closed air traffic to China, and our leaders still say inanities like “we are fully prepared.” Xi Jinping will not be the worst looking leader here.

    Europe still hasn’t closed air traffic to China, and our leaders still say inanities like “we are fully prepared.”

    Ukrainian villagers have a more realistic, helpful, and healthy response than European leaders.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I bet you dollars to donuts Ukrainian leaders are not any better. Are there still flights to Iran? (I haven’t looked it up.) Or Italy, for that matter? China? (Hungary still has three flights a week, to be reduced to once a week after March 4.)
  55. @Anatoly Karlin
    "Doctors" and "nurses" celebrating at not having to do their job =/= implementing quarantines.

    Individual assaults, mostly on Chinese or people who look Chinese =/= a large mob stoning their "own" countrymen. Both are bad, but there's a difference.

    Chinese restaurants seeing a collapse in visitorship - well, I suspect most here are for freedom of association, and if you're an Australian, visiting a Chinese restaurant right now is probably one of the better ways to maximize your chances of getting Corona.

    “Doctors” and “nurses” celebrating at not having to do their job =/= implementing quarantines.

    I don’t know of any hospital staff anywhere who wouldn’t be thrilled when getting the news that they would not be exposed to people with a contagious deadly illness.

    They would of course do their jobs and help those people as best they could, but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be celebrating if getting the news that they and their families wouldn’t be exposed to potentially infected people. In China a lot of nurses and doctors have become infected and some have died.

    As for your quotes around the doctors and nurses there – life expectancy in Lviv oblast is higher than in most of Russia. While lifestyle factors play a large role in this it does suggest that the hospitals aren’t worse than Russian ones.

    Individual assaults, mostly on Chinese or people who look Chinese =/= a large mob stoning their “own” countrymen.

    Fair point, OTOH in Ukraine several foreigners were taken in to quarantine also. The protests will force the government to think twice before doing things like that. Ukrainian people stand up for themselves even if in this particular case it is rather questionable.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    I don’t know of any hospital staff anywhere who wouldn’t be thrilled when getting the news that they would not be exposed to people with a contagious deadly illness.
     
    Celebrating that looks bad. Celebrating it by singing your national anthem, how should I put it... is the definition of svidomism. Hard to imagine in most countries.

    As for your quotes around the doctors and nurses there – life expectancy in Lviv oblast is higher than in most of Russia. While lifestyle factors play a large role in this it does suggest that the hospitals aren’t worse than Russian ones.
     
    Lvov LE in 2018 (one of Ukraine's near top regions) - 73.4 years http://ukrstat.gov.ua/druk/publicat/kat_u/2019/zb/08/zb_tabl_nar_2018.pdf (pp 57)

    Russian LE in 2018 - 72.9 years (73.6 years in first half of 2019)

    So, almost equal, despite aforementioned factors of Ukrainians - especially West Ukrainians - traditionally having healthier lifestyles than Russians.

    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/russia-ukraine-life-expectancy-1990-2018.png

    Given that Russia is in second place regarding the measles outbreak, this is not something for Russians to brag about.
     
    Doesn't accord with what some quick Googling reveals.

    First, scale is completely incomparable (100x as many cases in Ukraine during the height of the outbreak).

    Second, Russia might have the highest incidence in Europe, but there are several countries that are higher or similar in per capita terms (not even all of them are in Eastern Europe).
    , @Aedib

    this it does suggest that the hospitals aren’t worse than Russian ones.
     
    LOL
  56. @Dreadilk
    Yes civilized countries lack instinct of self preservation due to times being good. No surprise in Ukraine there is a panic.

    Also this with the measels outbreak indicates unhealthy information environment.

    Given that Russia is in second place regarding the measles outbreak, this is not something for Russians to brag about.

    • Replies: @Aedib
    Actually Macri’s Argentina was in second place regarding measles outbreak. The same health policies; the same results.
    , @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    HAHA- is there no end to your mendacious lies and BS

    measles cases in ukraine/404 in 2018: 85000
    Measles cases in Russia 2018: 2500

    LOL 34fold difference despite the 4 times higher population of Russia ( and plenty of those cases brought about by the millions of central Asian immigrants)
    Effectively that means a rate in 2018 of Russians 136 less likely to get measles. I think less cases in Russia than the whole of Gruzia!

    Measles cases in ukrop for first 10 months in 2019: 57000
    Russians in 2019 10 months: 3500
    Increase in russia in line with the increase in the west, ukrop anyway you look at it--a catastrophe, a real epidemic 65 fold less likely in Russia (and I'm sure the remaining 2 months would push the difference over the 100 mark again)

    Of course in Ukraine--many deaths. In Russia? Zero from measles in the last 2 years. Its one of the biggest, from many many things to boast about from Russians over Ukrainians you cret*n. Well,
  57. @AP

    Europe still hasn’t closed air traffic to China, and our leaders still say inanities like “we are fully prepared.”
     
    Ukrainian villagers have a more realistic, helpful, and healthy response than European leaders.

    I bet you dollars to donuts Ukrainian leaders are not any better. Are there still flights to Iran? (I haven’t looked it up.) Or Italy, for that matter? China? (Hungary still has three flights a week, to be reduced to once a week after March 4.)

    • Replies: @AP
    You are probably right. However, popular resistance nay cause Ukrainian authorities to tread more carefully.
  58. @A123
    The singing was not predicate (protective). As the facts show it was subsequent (reactive).

    Thus simple Logic 101 unambiguously shows that the anthem had no impact on the outcome.

    Why is happiness about not being subjected to a communicable, potentially lethal disease surprising?

    The anthem would be different, but the scene could have happened just as easily in any rural hospital outside of Sochi, Saint Petersburg, or Vladivostok in relief that Moscow central wasn't dumping plague on them.

    PEACE 😇

    the anthem had no impact on the outcome

    We already know that.

    What you mean to say is the anthem was not an outbreak of superstition (protective) but an outbreak of asshattery (I can be an asshole, let’s sing a bit). A bit like football.

    … Unless the hidden meaning is “we stand with our patients” etc. but apparently not.

    • Replies: @A123
    I notice you ducked my question. Let me re-ask it.

    Why is happiness about not being subjected to a communicable, potentially lethal disease surprising?

    If you wish to blame the Ukrainian government for deciding to accept communicable disease carriers without a viable plan to house them.... Feel free.

    However, there is nothing untoward about locals celebrating when they beat central government planning. Refusing to accept undesirables, such as Muslim migrants or plague carriers, is a win for people protecting their children from harm.

    Or, do you embrace USSR style central and planning? Obedience to the government Oligarchs is mandatory!

    You sound like a Bernie Bro willing to force harm on other people's children in the pursuit of woke-ness. No sacrifice is too great for someone else to make. Those who refuse government mandated sacrifice must be insulted.

    Did you offer up your local medical facility and house to shelter the disease ridden?

    We all see who is preaching Bernie Bro style asshattery.

    PEACE 😇

  59. @Mr. Hack
    You have to pay for a quality product, right? Or is that something that they forgot to teach you in Sovok school?

    You have to pay for a quality product, right?

    That’s a weird response. So Maidan happened with an understanding that there will be costs that West will impose? Including repopulating Ukraine, taking its arable lands, etc…? Maybe you are right, one should never underestimate self-loathing in Eastern Europe.

    Or are you just very simple minded and think this is a weekend trip to Ikea?

    • Replies: @Oscar Peterson
    This article is a bit over the top. Here is some amplifying information on one of the incidents referenced in the article:

    A plane with 45 Ukrainians and 27 foreign nationals took off from Wuhan early on Thursday, the origin of the outbreak that has infected more than 75,000 people worldwide and killed over 2,100.

    Those evacuated included nationals from Belarus, Kazakhstan, Argentina, Ecuador, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic and Panama.
     

    One has to suspect that people focused on the non-Ukrainians and thought Ukraine was going to be used as some sort of dumping ground for evacuees from China.

    In typical media style, it's almost impossible to find (at least in English) any on-the-ground interview of protestors that would throw more definitive light on the motives for the protests. The media and social media probably distorted what was actually taking place, and some locals got a little crazy.

    The anti-Ukraine tone of the article seems quite unwarranted and almost propagandistic given what took place. There was apparently some sort of protest in Russia about plans to segregate Chinese nationals currently in Russia who tested positive for the virus in a mental asylum near Chelyabinsk. Not exactly the same situation, but a broadly similar psychological reaction.

  60. @El Dato

    the anthem had no impact on the outcome
     
    We already know that.

    What you mean to say is the anthem was not an outbreak of superstition (protective) but an outbreak of asshattery (I can be an asshole, let's sing a bit). A bit like football.

    ... Unless the hidden meaning is "we stand with our patients" etc. but apparently not.

    I notice you ducked my question. Let me re-ask it.

    Why is happiness about not being subjected to a communicable, potentially lethal disease surprising?

    If you wish to blame the Ukrainian government for deciding to accept communicable disease carriers without a viable plan to house them…. Feel free.

    However, there is nothing untoward about locals celebrating when they beat central government planning. Refusing to accept undesirables, such as Muslim migrants or plague carriers, is a win for people protecting their children from harm.

    Or, do you embrace USSR style central and planning? Obedience to the government Oligarchs is mandatory!

    You sound like a Bernie Bro willing to force harm on other people’s children in the pursuit of woke-ness. No sacrifice is too great for someone else to make. Those who refuse government mandated sacrifice must be insulted.

    Did you offer up your local medical facility and house to shelter the disease ridden?

    We all see who is preaching Bernie Bro style asshattery.

    PEACE 😇

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Oscar Peterson

    Why is happiness about not being subjected to a communicable, potentially lethal disease surprising?
     
    What is perhaps surprising is that Ukrainians would sing their national anthem in connection to a group of refugees who appear to be at least majority Ukrainian.

    What probably happened is that the presence of a minority of Belorussians and Latin Americans among the evacuees became a media highlight and the perception that Ukraine was being used as a dumping ground for evacuees of various nationalities took hold.

    Why Belorussians and Latin Americans were being quarantined in Ukraine is a valid question. I assume the answer is that international health bureaucrats suggested it was better to have the handful of Costa Ricans, for example, held with others in Ukraine rather than risk further spread by sending them on to Costa Rica immediately.

    Some element of the Ukrainian government probably agreed to this concept, but it was never properly communicated and explained.

    Where the best place in Ukraine to place Ukrainian nationals in quarantine might be is, I suppose, an open question (as well as whether they should simply have stayed in China.)

  61. @Dreadilk
    Gabon does not qualify as a working government in the first place.

    Gabon has a higher per capital GDP than Belarus.

    • Replies: @Denis
    Well it does in nominal terms, but in PPP Belarus is higher. Neither of these variables really captures that there is a substantial difference between living in Belarus and living in Gabon on their own.

    Belarus is ranked 5oth on the HDI rankings, whereas Gabon is 115th. This suggests that there may be somewhat more disfunction in governance in Gabon than in Belarus, as the HDI measures life expectancy at birth and expected years of schooling in addition to GNI per capita, the former two variables being dependent on publicly regulated services, education and healthcare.

  62. @reiner Tor
    I bet you dollars to donuts Ukrainian leaders are not any better. Are there still flights to Iran? (I haven’t looked it up.) Or Italy, for that matter? China? (Hungary still has three flights a week, to be reduced to once a week after March 4.)

    You are probably right. However, popular resistance nay cause Ukrainian authorities to tread more carefully.

  63. @Beckow

    In the face of actual epidemics in Ukraine of Measles (killed more people in ukropia in the last 1 and 2 years than Coronovirus has to anyone outside of China
     
    You are missing the point. Those two events are not related; you can have the worst internal health system in Europe (probably true about Ukraine), and still stand for your own when foreign plague threatens.

    To you it looks 'shameful' because you are in a mistaken belief that there has to be some consistency or harmony in the world in the way people behave. There doesn't. This is the same problem Kremlin has when they vainly appeal to the West. Until you internalise that there are no rules, no values, and no consistency, they will keep on walking all over you. One of the greatest strengths that West has is the complete disregard for any rules or fair-play. Learn from it instead of failing again and again. Ukies stoning the buses showed some balls, maybe there is hope for them.

    Ukies stoning the buses showed some balls

    It’s a similar to what was expressed in Maidan. Some Russians hate that about Ukrainians so they can’t help but condemn it in this case also.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    It is not the stone-throwing that I object to, I like that part. It is that they don't seem to know what to do after that...
  64. @AP
    Given that Russia is in second place regarding the measles outbreak, this is not something for Russians to brag about.

    Actually Macri’s Argentina was in second place regarding measles outbreak. The same health policies; the same results.

  65. @Denis

    Despite police protection, on the way the bus was pelted with stones. Several windows were broken. Now locals spread in social media calls for burning down the building where these people are quarantined along with its inhabitants.
     
    Wow, that's kind of barbaric. Isn't the government able to put out a PSA or something? Like, aren't they able to just go on TV and say "assaulting people with coronavirus isn't a good way to stop it from spreading"?

    Isn’t the government able to put out a PSA or something? Like, aren’t they able to just go on TV and say “assaulting people with coronavirus isn’t a good way to stop it from spreading”?

    This might have worked somewhere, but not in Ukraine. The credibility of the government there in the eyes of the populace is not just low, it’s negative. If the government told them “don’t do this”, they would have taken it as solid proof that this is exactly what should be done.

  66. @Beckow

    You have to pay for a quality product, right?
     
    That's a weird response. So Maidan happened with an understanding that there will be costs that West will impose? Including repopulating Ukraine, taking its arable lands, etc...? Maybe you are right, one should never underestimate self-loathing in Eastern Europe.

    Or are you just very simple minded and think this is a weekend trip to Ikea?

    This article is a bit over the top. Here is some amplifying information on one of the incidents referenced in the article:

    A plane with 45 Ukrainians and 27 foreign nationals took off from Wuhan early on Thursday, the origin of the outbreak that has infected more than 75,000 people worldwide and killed over 2,100.

    Those evacuated included nationals from Belarus, Kazakhstan, Argentina, Ecuador, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic and Panama.

    One has to suspect that people focused on the non-Ukrainians and thought Ukraine was going to be used as some sort of dumping ground for evacuees from China.

    In typical media style, it’s almost impossible to find (at least in English) any on-the-ground interview of protestors that would throw more definitive light on the motives for the protests. The media and social media probably distorted what was actually taking place, and some locals got a little crazy.

    The anti-Ukraine tone of the article seems quite unwarranted and almost propagandistic given what took place. There was apparently some sort of protest in Russia about plans to segregate Chinese nationals currently in Russia who tested positive for the virus in a mental asylum near Chelyabinsk. Not exactly the same situation, but a broadly similar psychological reaction.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    You can't interview those guys as they are throwing stones, they might kill you. For them it is very simple, and for once I am very sympathetic. This is also a preview of coming attractions in Ukraine, big guys with anger issues who think everybody is out to screw them. This will be entertaining. Zelensky better have his plane engines running.

    But from who was on the bus, I see what's possibly going on: there were Dominicanas, Ticas and Portenos on that bus, Latin scum who used to wash dishes and other things in Wuhan (what else do you think they would be doing there?) A profession that Ukies have a monopoly on in these parts, so the pimps struck.
    , @AP

    One has to suspect that people focused on the non-Ukrainians and thought Ukraine was going to be used as some sort of dumping ground for evacuees from China.
     
    If 70 evacuees needed police protection to avoid being harmed, do you think anyone would be able to protect lots of Syrian or African migrants if they were brought to Ukraine?
  67. @Beckow

    ...The reception of Ukrainian citizens evacuated from Wuhan was anything but rational.
     
    Wrong term. It was not particularly humane, but it was quite rational.

    The media has been screaming about an out-of-control Chinese epidemic, alluding to the Spanish flu and plague. If true, the most rational reaction is to shut the gates, sacrifice the stragglers, and man the ramparts. Not all medieval behaviour was wrong.

    The complicating factor here is that some none-Ukrainians were supposed to be included. That feeds on the idea that Ukraine (or east in general) is seen as a convenient dumping ground and that Kiev elites would agree to it for a few pretty words from their betters in Brussels. That would go along with the eventual relocation of surplus migrants who have no place to go to the very fertile but depopulating Ukraine. Erdogan by himself has around 5 million to share.

    Ukie behaviour showed that they still have some self-preservation and that any long-term plans to repopulate Ukraine might run into some stone throwing. But long-term is 10-15 years and by then not only the railroad will be managed by the friendly foreign consultants. The argument that corruption prevents the locals from managing their own lives can be used for just about anything.

    The sweet fruits of Maidan and the unrequited yearning for dipping toes in the Seine. You can dip, but it will be more expensive than anyone on Maidan could imagine.

    Some medieval behaviors were rational. However, pelting buses with potentially infected people with stones and breaking windows was totally irrational. It could have only facilitated the spread of the virus.

    However, you can’t expect rationality from the people doing these things. They assume that if their government is doing something, it would harm them. What’s more, they are right about 99% of the time.

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @Beckow

    ...It could have only facilitated the spread of the virus.
     
    Not if they killed them and burnt their bodies - in a proper medieval way :)...

    The local Ukrainians saw their government possibly helping the world by increasing chances that they will get hurt. It fit well into their deep suspicions. So they attacked. The mentality is exactly what you say: a total distrust of their government.

    What's encouraging is that as this unravels at least some of them will go down fighting. Maidan was an emotional outburst of mayhem, it will end with more of the same. That's the Ukrainian way, and I wish 'chlopci' all the luck. They will need it. And Russians are least of their problems.

  68. The performance of the southern 3 states of Brazil is an argument against determinism based on HBD.

  69. @anonymous coward
    Please stop insulting the Middle Ages.

    Please stop insulting the Middle Ages

    Fair point. My bad.

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    Yes, one reason the world sucks so bad is because we left much of the good of the Middle Ages behind us.
  70. @Mr. XYZ

    Incidentally, this does show to what extent the Ukraine has really “unified” as a country after Russian “aggression” and what Ukrainian nationalism is really worth. It’s all fun and games when larping in vyshivankas and kneeling before funeral processions of ATO soldiers, but as soon as they need to put some skin in the game, all of that instantly dissipates.
     
    What exactly do you mean by this, Anatoly?

    PS. he Ukraine handed over the operation of its railways to German state operator Deutsche Bahn for a period of ten years, with PM Alexei Goncharuk having remarked back in October 2019 Ukraine’s railway infrastructure is “practically destroyed… due to total corruption.” As far as I know, all East European countries are capable of running their own railways. Why does Ukrainian governance underperform its national IQ level of ~95 by about 1 S.D.? In fact, I think Ukraine might well be the single greatest argument against HBD.
     
    It's "The Ukraine", not "he Ukraine". Anyway, though, I wonder if there's something in the Ukrainian character that promotes anarchism and thus less effective management in comparison to neighboring countries. Honestly, I doubt it, but the success of Ukrainian anarchist Makhno during the Russian Civil War does make one wonder.

    One would think that with the destruction of pro-Russian forces in Ukraine (they no longer have a realistic chance of acquiring power in Ukraine), Ukraine would be capable of being governed more effectively--and maybe this is true to some extent, with the economic growth in western Ukraine that AP sometimes talks about. Still, one does wonder just how long it will take for Ukraine to fully eliminate its governance problems. Here's wishing them luck on my own part, though!

    It’s “The Ukraine”, not “he Ukraine”.

    An unneeded correction. In any case, it’s not “the Ukraine.” It’s simply “Ukraine.” At least that’s what Ukrainians prefer. The use of the definite article is seen to convey a more regional or provincial flavor rather than the national identity they obviously wish to assert.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    Do the Dutch view themselves as regional or provisional as a result of the "the"' in "the Netherlands"?
  71. @A123
    I notice you ducked my question. Let me re-ask it.

    Why is happiness about not being subjected to a communicable, potentially lethal disease surprising?

    If you wish to blame the Ukrainian government for deciding to accept communicable disease carriers without a viable plan to house them.... Feel free.

    However, there is nothing untoward about locals celebrating when they beat central government planning. Refusing to accept undesirables, such as Muslim migrants or plague carriers, is a win for people protecting their children from harm.

    Or, do you embrace USSR style central and planning? Obedience to the government Oligarchs is mandatory!

    You sound like a Bernie Bro willing to force harm on other people's children in the pursuit of woke-ness. No sacrifice is too great for someone else to make. Those who refuse government mandated sacrifice must be insulted.

    Did you offer up your local medical facility and house to shelter the disease ridden?

    We all see who is preaching Bernie Bro style asshattery.

    PEACE 😇

    Why is happiness about not being subjected to a communicable, potentially lethal disease surprising?

    What is perhaps surprising is that Ukrainians would sing their national anthem in connection to a group of refugees who appear to be at least majority Ukrainian.

    What probably happened is that the presence of a minority of Belorussians and Latin Americans among the evacuees became a media highlight and the perception that Ukraine was being used as a dumping ground for evacuees of various nationalities took hold.

    Why Belorussians and Latin Americans were being quarantined in Ukraine is a valid question. I assume the answer is that international health bureaucrats suggested it was better to have the handful of Costa Ricans, for example, held with others in Ukraine rather than risk further spread by sending them on to Costa Rica immediately.

    Some element of the Ukrainian government probably agreed to this concept, but it was never properly communicated and explained.

    Where the best place in Ukraine to place Ukrainian nationals in quarantine might be is, I suppose, an open question (as well as whether they should simply have stayed in China.)

    • Replies: @A123

    I assume the answer is that international health bureaucrats suggested
    ....
    Some element of the Ukrainian government probably agreed to this concept, but it was never properly communicated and explained.

     

    That sounds about right.

    Elite, Ultra Left, Globalist bureaucrats in Brussels & Berlin decided it was a good idea to place Ukrainians at risk. The weak Ukrainian government, craven before their Globalist masters, obeyed.

    Of course, there was no way for the Ukraine government to publicly sell this indefensible decision to serve foreign masters at the expense of the Ukrainian people. Presumably the EU Elites and Ukrainian government conspirators planned on dumping the infected on an unsuspecting facility in the dead of night. Fait Accompli. When the facts leaked out before Berlin's servants could achieve the dump-&-run, the whole plan unraveled.

    The relief and celebration of those who successfully resisted Globalist tyranny is understandable and in many ways desirable. They proved that you can beat Mutti Mullah Merkel and her Globalist system.

    PEACE 😇
  72. @AP
    Given that Russia is in second place regarding the measles outbreak, this is not something for Russians to brag about.

    HAHA- is there no end to your mendacious lies and BS

    measles cases in ukraine/404 in 2018: 85000
    Measles cases in Russia 2018: 2500

    LOL 34fold difference despite the 4 times higher population of Russia ( and plenty of those cases brought about by the millions of central Asian immigrants)
    Effectively that means a rate in 2018 of Russians 136 less likely to get measles. I think less cases in Russia than the whole of Gruzia!

    Measles cases in ukrop for first 10 months in 2019: 57000
    Russians in 2019 10 months: 3500
    Increase in russia in line with the increase in the west, ukrop anyway you look at it–a catastrophe, a real epidemic 65 fold less likely in Russia (and I’m sure the remaining 2 months would push the difference over the 100 mark again)

    Of course in Ukraine–many deaths. In Russia? Zero from measles in the last 2 years. Its one of the biggest, from many many things to boast about from Russians over Ukrainians you cret*n. Well,

  73. Ukraine’s effort to quarantine more than 70 people evacuated from China over the new virus outbreak was plunged into chaos on Thursday as local residents hurled stones at buses carrying the evacuees and engaged in violent clashes with police.

    The vehicles were finally able to reach the designated place of quarantine after hours of clashes. The masked evacuees, exhausted by the long journey, peeked through shattered bus windows as they drove slowly under heavy police escort.

    Not sure how the logic here worked.

    “Hey, there are people with deadly plague on that bus and we are upset about that! Lets break the windows of their bus with stones so they can sneeze on us through the openings and infect us all. Winning!?”

    I mean, even in Hollywood movies with scary zombie outbreaks, people hide from zombies behind quarantine glass. People don’t break the glass themselves to allow zombies easier access. When zombie apocalypse arrives, Ukraine is screwed.

  74. @AnonFromTN
    Some medieval behaviors were rational. However, pelting buses with potentially infected people with stones and breaking windows was totally irrational. It could have only facilitated the spread of the virus.

    However, you can’t expect rationality from the people doing these things. They assume that if their government is doing something, it would harm them. What’s more, they are right about 99% of the time.

    …It could have only facilitated the spread of the virus.

    Not if they killed them and burnt their bodies – in a proper medieval way :)…

    The local Ukrainians saw their government possibly helping the world by increasing chances that they will get hurt. It fit well into their deep suspicions. So they attacked. The mentality is exactly what you say: a total distrust of their government.

    What’s encouraging is that as this unravels at least some of them will go down fighting. Maidan was an emotional outburst of mayhem, it will end with more of the same. That’s the Ukrainian way, and I wish ‘chlopci’ all the luck. They will need it. And Russians are least of their problems.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN

    I wish ‘chlopci’ all the luck.
     
    ‘chlopci’ are gullible fools. Their oligarchs rob them blind since 1991. Yet their aggression is so easily deflected toward Russians (“moscali”), Donbass people ("sovoks"), and now those unfortunates who happened to be in Wuhan at the wrong time. From my perspective, they demonstrate that every nation has the government it deserves. This is sad. Being from Ukraine, I am ashamed of them.
  75. @Oscar Peterson

    Why is happiness about not being subjected to a communicable, potentially lethal disease surprising?
     
    What is perhaps surprising is that Ukrainians would sing their national anthem in connection to a group of refugees who appear to be at least majority Ukrainian.

    What probably happened is that the presence of a minority of Belorussians and Latin Americans among the evacuees became a media highlight and the perception that Ukraine was being used as a dumping ground for evacuees of various nationalities took hold.

    Why Belorussians and Latin Americans were being quarantined in Ukraine is a valid question. I assume the answer is that international health bureaucrats suggested it was better to have the handful of Costa Ricans, for example, held with others in Ukraine rather than risk further spread by sending them on to Costa Rica immediately.

    Some element of the Ukrainian government probably agreed to this concept, but it was never properly communicated and explained.

    Where the best place in Ukraine to place Ukrainian nationals in quarantine might be is, I suppose, an open question (as well as whether they should simply have stayed in China.)

    I assume the answer is that international health bureaucrats suggested
    ….
    Some element of the Ukrainian government probably agreed to this concept, but it was never properly communicated and explained.

    That sounds about right.

    Elite, Ultra Left, Globalist bureaucrats in Brussels & Berlin decided it was a good idea to place Ukrainians at risk. The weak Ukrainian government, craven before their Globalist masters, obeyed.

    Of course, there was no way for the Ukraine government to publicly sell this indefensible decision to serve foreign masters at the expense of the Ukrainian people. Presumably the EU Elites and Ukrainian government conspirators planned on dumping the infected on an unsuspecting facility in the dead of night. Fait Accompli. When the facts leaked out before Berlin’s servants could achieve the dump-&-run, the whole plan unraveled.

    The relief and celebration of those who successfully resisted Globalist tyranny is understandable and in many ways desirable. They proved that you can beat Mutti Mullah Merkel and her Globalist system.

    PEACE 😇

  76. @Mr. Hack
    I wasn't aware that the German rail system is below European standards? Whatever happened to "German engineering?"

    My own personal experiences have been disappointing compared to all its neighbours. I may have just had bad luck but it also in accord with the experiences of a number of acquaintances.

    We are becoming a joke: Germans turn on Deutsche Bahn

  77. @Oscar Peterson
    This article is a bit over the top. Here is some amplifying information on one of the incidents referenced in the article:

    A plane with 45 Ukrainians and 27 foreign nationals took off from Wuhan early on Thursday, the origin of the outbreak that has infected more than 75,000 people worldwide and killed over 2,100.

    Those evacuated included nationals from Belarus, Kazakhstan, Argentina, Ecuador, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic and Panama.
     

    One has to suspect that people focused on the non-Ukrainians and thought Ukraine was going to be used as some sort of dumping ground for evacuees from China.

    In typical media style, it's almost impossible to find (at least in English) any on-the-ground interview of protestors that would throw more definitive light on the motives for the protests. The media and social media probably distorted what was actually taking place, and some locals got a little crazy.

    The anti-Ukraine tone of the article seems quite unwarranted and almost propagandistic given what took place. There was apparently some sort of protest in Russia about plans to segregate Chinese nationals currently in Russia who tested positive for the virus in a mental asylum near Chelyabinsk. Not exactly the same situation, but a broadly similar psychological reaction.

    You can’t interview those guys as they are throwing stones, they might kill you. For them it is very simple, and for once I am very sympathetic. This is also a preview of coming attractions in Ukraine, big guys with anger issues who think everybody is out to screw them. This will be entertaining. Zelensky better have his plane engines running.

    But from who was on the bus, I see what’s possibly going on: there were Dominicanas, Ticas and Portenos on that bus, Latin scum who used to wash dishes and other things in Wuhan (what else do you think they would be doing there?) A profession that Ukies have a monopoly on in these parts, so the pimps struck.

    • Replies: @Oscar Peterson

    Latin scum who used to wash dishes and other things in Wuhan (what else do you think they would be doing there?)
     
    I doubt that labor costs have risen high enough in China--especially in the interior--for Caribbeans/Central Americans to go there to wash dishes or do similar low-end work.
  78. @AP

    Ukies stoning the buses showed some balls
     
    It’s a similar to what was expressed in Maidan. Some Russians hate that about Ukrainians so they can’t help but condemn it in this case also.

    It is not the stone-throwing that I object to, I like that part. It is that they don’t seem to know what to do after that…

  79. @sudden death
    Would not be so sure about real fatality rate being around 1% - even from official numbers there already has been over 25 thousand cases which had an outcome (recovery or death) and official death rate for those finished cases is 10%. The only good thing that it is trending down as two weeks ago it was 19% with over 6000 finished cases but it is still horribly high and just from official data, when we know there are more than plenty of people dying which are not counted anyhow in official stats for this virus.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    Also, some info is begining to seep out regarding the real condition of some those officially "recovered":

    Hong Kong iCable News: (Translated) Xiao Chow's father was confirmed on Jan 15 and admitted into a hospital in Wuhan 8 days later. He was later discharged on Feb 11. Shortly after, her father showed symptoms again. On the night of discharge, he was coughing and had breathing difficulties. Three days later, he had a fever. On the next day, he was admitted into another hospital. He is now in critical condition. Xiao Chow told us that her father told the doctor he wasn't feeling well two days before discharge. "I feel like my father was forced to be discharged because he already told the doctors he had stomach pain, no appetite and felt nauseous, but the doctors didn't care and discharged him regardless.", she said.

    According to the latest guidelines, hospital discharge of Wuhan virus patients must satisfy four conditions. One of them being "major improvement in chest condition". However, Xiao Chow's father discharge letter reads "minor improvement in chest condition" falling short of the requirement.

    Recently, some Wuhan doctors posted details about the approach China has taken to discharge patients without improvement in order to increase discharge and recovery rates. The post has now been censored.
     
    from r/China_Flu/comments/f7sknp/china_forces_patients_to_discharge_from_hospitals/
    • Replies: @sudden death
    Would be really glad if this indeed reflected the real situation, but criteria for confirmed cases appears to be changing very quickly in China - at first they removed infected, but non symptomatic cases from confirmed count, then added CT diagnosed cases which led to nearly sevenfold increase in one day, then quickly removed CT cases from confirmed criteria again without returning asymptomatic cases to overall count... So this constant fudging only obfuscates the real scope of the spread there.
  80. @AP

    “Doctors” and “nurses” celebrating at not having to do their job =/= implementing quarantines.
     
    I don't know of any hospital staff anywhere who wouldn't be thrilled when getting the news that they would not be exposed to people with a contagious deadly illness.

    They would of course do their jobs and help those people as best they could, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be celebrating if getting the news that they and their families wouldn't be exposed to potentially infected people. In China a lot of nurses and doctors have become infected and some have died.

    As for your quotes around the doctors and nurses there - life expectancy in Lviv oblast is higher than in most of Russia. While lifestyle factors play a large role in this it does suggest that the hospitals aren't worse than Russian ones.

    Individual assaults, mostly on Chinese or people who look Chinese =/= a large mob stoning their “own” countrymen.
     
    Fair point, OTOH in Ukraine several foreigners were taken in to quarantine also. The protests will force the government to think twice before doing things like that. Ukrainian people stand up for themselves even if in this particular case it is rather questionable.

    I don’t know of any hospital staff anywhere who wouldn’t be thrilled when getting the news that they would not be exposed to people with a contagious deadly illness.

    Celebrating that looks bad. Celebrating it by singing your national anthem, how should I put it… is the definition of svidomism. Hard to imagine in most countries.

    As for your quotes around the doctors and nurses there – life expectancy in Lviv oblast is higher than in most of Russia. While lifestyle factors play a large role in this it does suggest that the hospitals aren’t worse than Russian ones.

    Lvov LE in 2018 (one of Ukraine’s near top regions) – 73.4 years http://ukrstat.gov.ua/druk/publicat/kat_u/2019/zb/08/zb_tabl_nar_2018.pdf (pp 57)

    Russian LE in 2018 – 72.9 years (73.6 years in first half of 2019)

    So, almost equal, despite aforementioned factors of Ukrainians – especially West Ukrainians – traditionally having healthier lifestyles than Russians.

    Given that Russia is in second place regarding the measles outbreak, this is not something for Russians to brag about.

    Doesn’t accord with what some quick Googling reveals.

    First, scale is completely incomparable (100x as many cases in Ukraine during the height of the outbreak).

    Second, Russia might have the highest incidence in Europe, but there are several countries that are higher or similar in per capita terms (not even all of them are in Eastern Europe).

    • Replies: @AP

    Celebrating that looks bad. Celebrating it by singing your national anthem, how should I put it… is the definition of svidomism. Hard to imagine in most countries.
     
    I suspect you would be pleased if Russians were so nationalistic that when they celebrate they sing the Russian national anthem.

    Lvov LE in 2018 (one of Ukraine’s near top regions) – 73.4 years http://ukrstat.gov.ua/druk/publicat/kat_u/2019/zb/08/zb_tabl_nar_2018.pdf (pp 57)

    Russian LE in 2018 – 72.9 years (73.6 years in first half of 2019)

    So, almost equal, despite aforementioned factors of Ukrainians – especially West Ukrainians – traditionally having healthier lifestyles than Russians.

     

    So it's doubtful that the hospitals are a lot worse than in Russia.

    First, scale is completely incomparable (100x as many cases in Ukraine during the height of the outbreak).
     
    I stand corrected. Looks like Serbia is in second place:

    https://www.who.int/csr/don/06-may-2019-measles-euro/en/

    Ukraine (n= 53 218), Serbia (n=5 076), Israel (3 140), France (n=2 913), Italy, (n=2 686), Russian Federation (n=2 256), Georgia (n=2 203) and Greece (n=2 193).

    , @Dmitry

    Celebrating it by singing your national anthem
     
    Yes it's true and a little amusing if they are supposedly wanting to be "21st century Europe", although in a more rational context this patriotism would be something noble and attractive.

    But if this is not too much of a strawman I thought one of (a bit idiosyncratic) arguments of this blog, is that we should support especially caveman nationalism, because it could help to prevent one of the dangers of 21th century developed countries - arrival of unfiltered, unskilled economic immigrants that will later increase damage the economy as welfare dependents?

    So to make something consistent with your argument, Ukraine is "well protected", and you should be happy about the attitudes there.

    Where I would reply

    1. These "differences in rates of caveman nationalism" are more inevitable effect, rather than some interesting or useful cause - usually they are the natural human effect of unpleasant living situation (economic crisis, political crisis and a low quality of propaganda consumption).

    It's why it could have been predicted - is not some coincidence - that the poorestcountry in Europe, and one with a civil war, Ukraine, is now the most nationist, racist, etc, country in Europe. Or in local Russian politics, why you can predict years ago, how money turned Moscow to a city of gay hipsters,* while the politics of wagon makers in Tagil is less sympathetic to vegan burgers and Scandinavian interior decoration.

    If in a different possible world, Ukraine becomes as rich and peaceful as Norway, then after 1-2 generations, there will be something like "English gentlemen behaviour" becoming universal in the population.

    2. Low income countries like Ukraine don't need caveman nationalism to protect them from economic immigration. In modern immigration – income is like an inverse of topographical gradient or slope, and immigrants behave on average like water in relation to it. Nobody wants to immigrate to Ukraine, where you can work as a slave for 3 months, for the price of a single iphone.

    -

    *i.e. It is in wealthy hipster countries where anti-immigration could have been useful, as all the world wants to live in them. Ukrainian style of skinheadism is not going to be popular in wealthy, stable, hipster countries, but more likely to weaken support for filtered immigration policy from a large part of the bourgeoisie.

    Actually for wealthy hipster countries, anti-immigration policy will be probably be more successful from gay liberal people like Pim Fortuyn, who have rational ideological reasons, or alternative some money saving reasons which will be presented in countries like Switzerland.

  81. @china-russia-all-the-way
    February 23: 19 confirmed cases outside of Hubei. The virus is winding down outside of the epicenter province.

    https://mmbiz.qpic.cn/mmbiz_png/MoyiaicTmjF5iaHCOvfAMqG45ID2w2MUibB5KNtiaXjoKGDkSYoseRaCxKNzFDvmjCrhLZkq1tGzS9USxd9C9tEFUYA/640?wx_fmt=png&tp=webp&wxfrom=5&wx_lazy=1&wx_co=1

    Would be really glad if this indeed reflected the real situation, but criteria for confirmed cases appears to be changing very quickly in China – at first they removed infected, but non symptomatic cases from confirmed count, then added CT diagnosed cases which led to nearly sevenfold increase in one day, then quickly removed CT cases from confirmed criteria again without returning asymptomatic cases to overall count… So this constant fudging only obfuscates the real scope of the spread there.

  82. @neutral
    I need to point out that Hungary does have Soros, one of the worlds most famous Oligarchs.

    He has lived in exile for decades, though–no?

  83. @Oscar Peterson

    It’s “The Ukraine”, not “he Ukraine”.
     
    An unneeded correction. In any case, it's not "the Ukraine." It's simply "Ukraine." At least that's what Ukrainians prefer. The use of the definite article is seen to convey a more regional or provincial flavor rather than the national identity they obviously wish to assert.

    Do the Dutch view themselves as regional or provisional as a result of the “the”‘ in “the Netherlands”?

    • Replies: @Oscar Peterson

    Do the Dutch view themselves as regional or provisional as a result of the “the”‘ in “the Netherlands”?
     
    No. Nor do Americans vis-a-vis the United States. Same for the United Kingdom, the United Arab Emirates, the Philippines, the Maldives, and the Seychelles. All these plus the Netherlands are collective constructions that group together political or geographic entities and use the definite article in the colloquial names of the countries.

    Ukraine is in another category. The Ukraine is evocative of Ukraine as part of the Russian Empire and USSR. Similarly, it is Gambia and no longer the Gambia which evokes its colonial status as part of the British Empire. And likewise Sudan, not the Sudan and Lebanon, not the Lebanon.

  84. @AP

    “Doctors” and “nurses” celebrating at not having to do their job =/= implementing quarantines.
     
    I don't know of any hospital staff anywhere who wouldn't be thrilled when getting the news that they would not be exposed to people with a contagious deadly illness.

    They would of course do their jobs and help those people as best they could, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be celebrating if getting the news that they and their families wouldn't be exposed to potentially infected people. In China a lot of nurses and doctors have become infected and some have died.

    As for your quotes around the doctors and nurses there - life expectancy in Lviv oblast is higher than in most of Russia. While lifestyle factors play a large role in this it does suggest that the hospitals aren't worse than Russian ones.

    Individual assaults, mostly on Chinese or people who look Chinese =/= a large mob stoning their “own” countrymen.
     
    Fair point, OTOH in Ukraine several foreigners were taken in to quarantine also. The protests will force the government to think twice before doing things like that. Ukrainian people stand up for themselves even if in this particular case it is rather questionable.

    this it does suggest that the hospitals aren’t worse than Russian ones.

    LOL

    • Replies: @AP
    While some Lviv oblast hospital well outside the city is worse than Moscow, I doubt it is worse than some provincial rural Russian hospital.
  85. @Mr. Hack
    Does anybody really give a hoot what you're keen on? Even you're fellow Russophiles find your monotonous disrespectful dialogue to be "Bizarre" to say the least.

    You’re a great guy Mr Hack, comedic but great. You are the embodiment of peace, democracy and human rights,

    So please be honest with me….. when you regularly fantasise about me shirtless, what colour underwear, if any, am I wearing?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    I've never fantasized about you shirtless Ms.Karlin-Gerard, but since you insist and have learned to express yourself in more of a genteel fashion, I'll try and oblige you - I hope red is your favorite color. :-)

    https://media.pri.org/s3fs-public/styles/story_main/public/story/images/RTXZ5Z8.jpg?itok=CjUXOTLk

  86. @Beckow

    ...It could have only facilitated the spread of the virus.
     
    Not if they killed them and burnt their bodies - in a proper medieval way :)...

    The local Ukrainians saw their government possibly helping the world by increasing chances that they will get hurt. It fit well into their deep suspicions. So they attacked. The mentality is exactly what you say: a total distrust of their government.

    What's encouraging is that as this unravels at least some of them will go down fighting. Maidan was an emotional outburst of mayhem, it will end with more of the same. That's the Ukrainian way, and I wish 'chlopci' all the luck. They will need it. And Russians are least of their problems.

    I wish ‘chlopci’ all the luck.

    ‘chlopci’ are gullible fools. Their oligarchs rob them blind since 1991. Yet their aggression is so easily deflected toward Russians (“moscali”), Donbass people (“sovoks”), and now those unfortunates who happened to be in Wuhan at the wrong time. From my perspective, they demonstrate that every nation has the government it deserves. This is sad. Being from Ukraine, I am ashamed of them.

  87. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    You're a great guy Mr Hack, comedic but great. You are the embodiment of peace, democracy and human rights,

    So please be honest with me..... when you regularly fantasise about me shirtless, what colour underwear, if any, am I wearing?

    I’ve never fantasized about you shirtless Ms.Karlin-Gerard, but since you insist and have learned to express yourself in more of a genteel fashion, I’ll try and oblige you – I hope red is your favorite color. 🙂

  88. Karlin, cmon. Please free Gerard2 and all the other sock puppets. The persecution has gone on too long now.

    Ma nishna, Tolya.

    ( some random yiddish I picked up in order to further ingratiate myself to you)

  89. @Aedib

    this it does suggest that the hospitals aren’t worse than Russian ones.
     
    LOL

    While some Lviv oblast hospital well outside the city is worse than Moscow, I doubt it is worse than some provincial rural Russian hospital.

  90. @Anatoly Karlin

    I don’t know of any hospital staff anywhere who wouldn’t be thrilled when getting the news that they would not be exposed to people with a contagious deadly illness.
     
    Celebrating that looks bad. Celebrating it by singing your national anthem, how should I put it... is the definition of svidomism. Hard to imagine in most countries.

    As for your quotes around the doctors and nurses there – life expectancy in Lviv oblast is higher than in most of Russia. While lifestyle factors play a large role in this it does suggest that the hospitals aren’t worse than Russian ones.
     
    Lvov LE in 2018 (one of Ukraine's near top regions) - 73.4 years http://ukrstat.gov.ua/druk/publicat/kat_u/2019/zb/08/zb_tabl_nar_2018.pdf (pp 57)

    Russian LE in 2018 - 72.9 years (73.6 years in first half of 2019)

    So, almost equal, despite aforementioned factors of Ukrainians - especially West Ukrainians - traditionally having healthier lifestyles than Russians.

    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/russia-ukraine-life-expectancy-1990-2018.png

    Given that Russia is in second place regarding the measles outbreak, this is not something for Russians to brag about.
     
    Doesn't accord with what some quick Googling reveals.

    First, scale is completely incomparable (100x as many cases in Ukraine during the height of the outbreak).

    Second, Russia might have the highest incidence in Europe, but there are several countries that are higher or similar in per capita terms (not even all of them are in Eastern Europe).

    Celebrating that looks bad. Celebrating it by singing your national anthem, how should I put it… is the definition of svidomism. Hard to imagine in most countries.

    I suspect you would be pleased if Russians were so nationalistic that when they celebrate they sing the Russian national anthem.

    Lvov LE in 2018 (one of Ukraine’s near top regions) – 73.4 years http://ukrstat.gov.ua/druk/publicat/kat_u/2019/zb/08/zb_tabl_nar_2018.pdf (pp 57)

    Russian LE in 2018 – 72.9 years (73.6 years in first half of 2019)

    So, almost equal, despite aforementioned factors of Ukrainians – especially West Ukrainians – traditionally having healthier lifestyles than Russians.

    So it’s doubtful that the hospitals are a lot worse than in Russia.

    First, scale is completely incomparable (100x as many cases in Ukraine during the height of the outbreak).

    I stand corrected. Looks like Serbia is in second place:

    https://www.who.int/csr/don/06-may-2019-measles-euro/en/

    Ukraine (n= 53 218), Serbia (n=5 076), Israel (3 140), France (n=2 913), Italy, (n=2 686), Russian Federation (n=2 256), Georgia (n=2 203) and Greece (n=2 193).

    • Replies: @utu
    When did British cinemas stop playing the national anthem at the start and/or end of shows?
    https://www.quora.com/When-did-British-cinemas-stop-playing-the-national-anthem-at-the-start-and-or-end-of-shows

    Until the latter part of the 20th century, theatre and concert goers were expected to stand while the anthem was played after the conclusion of a show. In cinemas this brought a tendency for audiences to rush out while the end credits played to avoid this formality. (This can be seen in the 1972 Dad's Army episode "A Soldier's Farewell".) - Wiki
    , @Denis

    I stand corrected. Looks like Serbia is in second place:

    https://www.who.int/csr/don/06-may-2019-measles-euro/en/

    Ukraine (n= 53 218), Serbia (n=5 076), Israel (3 140), France (n=2 913), Italy, (n=2 686), Russian Federation (n=2 256), Georgia (n=2 203) and Greece (n=2 193).
     
    Come on guys we can beat the Ukrainians for first place!
  91. @Oscar Peterson
    This article is a bit over the top. Here is some amplifying information on one of the incidents referenced in the article:

    A plane with 45 Ukrainians and 27 foreign nationals took off from Wuhan early on Thursday, the origin of the outbreak that has infected more than 75,000 people worldwide and killed over 2,100.

    Those evacuated included nationals from Belarus, Kazakhstan, Argentina, Ecuador, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic and Panama.
     

    One has to suspect that people focused on the non-Ukrainians and thought Ukraine was going to be used as some sort of dumping ground for evacuees from China.

    In typical media style, it's almost impossible to find (at least in English) any on-the-ground interview of protestors that would throw more definitive light on the motives for the protests. The media and social media probably distorted what was actually taking place, and some locals got a little crazy.

    The anti-Ukraine tone of the article seems quite unwarranted and almost propagandistic given what took place. There was apparently some sort of protest in Russia about plans to segregate Chinese nationals currently in Russia who tested positive for the virus in a mental asylum near Chelyabinsk. Not exactly the same situation, but a broadly similar psychological reaction.

    One has to suspect that people focused on the non-Ukrainians and thought Ukraine was going to be used as some sort of dumping ground for evacuees from China.

    If 70 evacuees needed police protection to avoid being harmed, do you think anyone would be able to protect lots of Syrian or African migrants if they were brought to Ukraine?

    • Replies: @Oscar Peterson

    If 70 evacuees needed police protection to avoid being harmed, do you think anyone would be able to protect lots of Syrian or African migrants if they were brought to Ukraine?

     

    Possibly not but what are you getting at?
  92. @AP

    Celebrating that looks bad. Celebrating it by singing your national anthem, how should I put it… is the definition of svidomism. Hard to imagine in most countries.
     
    I suspect you would be pleased if Russians were so nationalistic that when they celebrate they sing the Russian national anthem.

    Lvov LE in 2018 (one of Ukraine’s near top regions) – 73.4 years http://ukrstat.gov.ua/druk/publicat/kat_u/2019/zb/08/zb_tabl_nar_2018.pdf (pp 57)

    Russian LE in 2018 – 72.9 years (73.6 years in first half of 2019)

    So, almost equal, despite aforementioned factors of Ukrainians – especially West Ukrainians – traditionally having healthier lifestyles than Russians.

     

    So it's doubtful that the hospitals are a lot worse than in Russia.

    First, scale is completely incomparable (100x as many cases in Ukraine during the height of the outbreak).
     
    I stand corrected. Looks like Serbia is in second place:

    https://www.who.int/csr/don/06-may-2019-measles-euro/en/

    Ukraine (n= 53 218), Serbia (n=5 076), Israel (3 140), France (n=2 913), Italy, (n=2 686), Russian Federation (n=2 256), Georgia (n=2 203) and Greece (n=2 193).

    When did British cinemas stop playing the national anthem at the start and/or end of shows?
    https://www.quora.com/When-did-British-cinemas-stop-playing-the-national-anthem-at-the-start-and-or-end-of-shows

    Until the latter part of the 20th century, theatre and concert goers were expected to stand while the anthem was played after the conclusion of a show. In cinemas this brought a tendency for audiences to rush out while the end credits played to avoid this formality. (This can be seen in the 1972 Dad’s Army episode “A Soldier’s Farewell”.) – Wiki

  93. Ukraine’s National Anthem Will Protect It from Corona

    But will it be enough to protect Ukraine from Russia’ greedy clutches?

    I’ve often stated within this blogsite that Russia without Ukraine is just a large and rambling country full of natural resources, to the chagrin of many devoted readers herein. With Ukraine under its thumb, however, it truly reemerges as a superpower. And to prove to you, that Putler listens to me as well as to Karlin on weighty issues, and understands this, allow me to quote our fearless leader from just two days ago:

    Russia could regain its status as “a global rival” for Western powers through some degree of “integration” with Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in a newly released interview. “Some like dividing Ukraine and Russia. They believe it’s a very important goal,” Putin told TASS, a state-run media outlet. “Since any integration of Russia and Ukraine, along with their capacities and competitive advantages, would spell the emergence of a rival — a global rival for both Europe and the world.” Putin made the comment while reiterating his belief that Ukrainians and Russians are “the same people,” a claim widely perceived as a means to justify Russian influence over former Soviet nations. His reference to “integration” is even more unusual, and incendiary, according to Western analysts, given that the two countries have been locked in conflict since Russia’s annexation of Crimea and invasion of Ukraine in 2014. “Putin is careful with his language, so this is a startling statement,” the Atlantic Council’s John Herbst, a former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine who previously was stationed at the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, told the Washington Examiner. “One should not rule out that ‘integration’ means exactly what ‘integration’ suggests, which is a close, internal relationship between the two countries and the two peoples.”

    Putin, a former KGB officer, maintained that the Ukrainian national identity came about because Russia’s rivals wanted to “divide and rule” the Eastern power. “As a result of people sharing the border with the Catholic world, Europe, a community of people feeling to some extent independent from the Russian state began to emerge,” Putin said. “How should we feel about that? I have already said: We should respect that. But we should not forget about our shared community. … We should understand where we are now but not forget who we are and where we come from.” Multiple Western analysts noted that Putin has been pressuring Belarus to form a new political union with Russia, a political shift that could enable him to remain president of the expanded Russian state. That effort is anchored in an ambiguous 1998 political agreement between the two countries. Ukrainian authorities never signed such a deal, and the current conflict has alienated the two peoples despite Putin’s long-running effort to deny that Russian military forces invaded Ukraine. “The Ukrainians understand now that the Russians, particularly this group in the Kremlin, are no longer their brothers,” another former U.S. official familiar with Russian-Ukrainian issues told the Washington Examiner. “From the Ukrainian standpoint, it’s ludicrous to even contemplate.”

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/the-inner-putin-coming-out-russian-president-touts-integration-with-ukraine

    At this point, it’s hard to see how Putler’s dream will ever come true. If the Russians had only ever learned to implement the carrot strategy and build upon the goodwill that Ukrainians had of Russians prior to 2014. An all out war today, between the two countries would be a certain road to third world status for both for a long, long time.

    • Replies: @Dreadilk
    Look at the history of the region. Ukraine has been someone's bitch all of its history. I don't think Putin gives a flying fuck when Ukraine reintegrates. If he did not bite in 2014 he is more than ok letting someone who replaces him to finish the job.

    Edit: it's hilarious to see American diplomats commenting on how Ukranians feel.

  94. @Mr. Hack
    Ukraine's National Anthem Will Protect It from Corona

    But will it be enough to protect Ukraine from Russia' greedy clutches?

    I've often stated within this blogsite that Russia without Ukraine is just a large and rambling country full of natural resources, to the chagrin of many devoted readers herein. With Ukraine under its thumb, however, it truly reemerges as a superpower. And to prove to you, that Putler listens to me as well as to Karlin on weighty issues, and understands this, allow me to quote our fearless leader from just two days ago:


    Russia could regain its status as “a global rival” for Western powers through some degree of “integration” with Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in a newly released interview. “Some like dividing Ukraine and Russia. They believe it's a very important goal,” Putin told TASS, a state-run media outlet. “Since any integration of Russia and Ukraine, along with their capacities and competitive advantages, would spell the emergence of a rival — a global rival for both Europe and the world.” Putin made the comment while reiterating his belief that Ukrainians and Russians are “the same people,” a claim widely perceived as a means to justify Russian influence over former Soviet nations. His reference to “integration” is even more unusual, and incendiary, according to Western analysts, given that the two countries have been locked in conflict since Russia’s annexation of Crimea and invasion of Ukraine in 2014. “Putin is careful with his language, so this is a startling statement,” the Atlantic Council’s John Herbst, a former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine who previously was stationed at the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, told the Washington Examiner. “One should not rule out that ‘integration’ means exactly what ‘integration’ suggests, which is a close, internal relationship between the two countries and the two peoples.”

    Putin, a former KGB officer, maintained that the Ukrainian national identity came about because Russia's rivals wanted to "divide and rule" the Eastern power. "As a result of people sharing the border with the Catholic world, Europe, a community of people feeling to some extent independent from the Russian state began to emerge," Putin said. "How should we feel about that? I have already said: We should respect that. But we should not forget about our shared community. ... We should understand where we are now but not forget who we are and where we come from." Multiple Western analysts noted that Putin has been pressuring Belarus to form a new political union with Russia, a political shift that could enable him to remain president of the expanded Russian state. That effort is anchored in an ambiguous 1998 political agreement between the two countries. Ukrainian authorities never signed such a deal, and the current conflict has alienated the two peoples despite Putin’s long-running effort to deny that Russian military forces invaded Ukraine. “The Ukrainians understand now that the Russians, particularly this group in the Kremlin, are no longer their brothers,” another former U.S. official familiar with Russian-Ukrainian issues told the Washington Examiner. “From the Ukrainian standpoint, it's ludicrous to even contemplate.”
     

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/the-inner-putin-coming-out-russian-president-touts-integration-with-ukraine

    At this point, it's hard to see how Putler's dream will ever come true. If the Russians had only ever learned to implement the carrot strategy and build upon the goodwill that Ukrainians had of Russians prior to 2014. An all out war today, between the two countries would be a certain road to third world status for both for a long, long time.

    Look at the history of the region. Ukraine has been someone’s bitch all of its history. I don’t think Putin gives a flying fuck when Ukraine reintegrates. If he did not bite in 2014 he is more than ok letting someone who replaces him to finish the job.

    Edit: it’s hilarious to see American diplomats commenting on how Ukranians feel.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Putin takes a long view. A lot longer than most people, including the majority of Russians. He takes that long view from the position of strength: Russia is a great power w/o any sidekicks, especially ones of dubious, ever diminishing value. He waits for the Europeans to pay his expense of reintegrating economically and socially degenerated Ukraine. This will happen after a major disaster: a new Chernobyl on one of aged Ukrainian nuclear power stations or a similar disaster on one of the remaining Ukrainian chemical plants. Either will seriously affect Europe, forcing it to see the light. After a major disaster the EU will pay Russia to take the hand grenade from the monkey and will agree to cancel or pay off Ukrainian debts. Putin knows that an attempt of any Russian president to pay anything for Ukraine would result in that person losing power. Whatever his faults, he is not a fool. So, he has no intention of spending Russian resources for the sake of this dubious acquisition. The downside is that the people of Donbass will suffer their semi-hot war for years yet. However, Putin is the president of Russia, not the president of Donbass. From this perspective, his position, however inhumane, is understandable. He is playing a big game, where both Donbass and the rump of Ukraine are no more than low value chips.
  95. @Dreadilk
    Look at the history of the region. Ukraine has been someone's bitch all of its history. I don't think Putin gives a flying fuck when Ukraine reintegrates. If he did not bite in 2014 he is more than ok letting someone who replaces him to finish the job.

    Edit: it's hilarious to see American diplomats commenting on how Ukranians feel.

    Putin takes a long view. A lot longer than most people, including the majority of Russians. He takes that long view from the position of strength: Russia is a great power w/o any sidekicks, especially ones of dubious, ever diminishing value. He waits for the Europeans to pay his expense of reintegrating economically and socially degenerated Ukraine. This will happen after a major disaster: a new Chernobyl on one of aged Ukrainian nuclear power stations or a similar disaster on one of the remaining Ukrainian chemical plants. Either will seriously affect Europe, forcing it to see the light. After a major disaster the EU will pay Russia to take the hand grenade from the monkey and will agree to cancel or pay off Ukrainian debts. Putin knows that an attempt of any Russian president to pay anything for Ukraine would result in that person losing power. Whatever his faults, he is not a fool. So, he has no intention of spending Russian resources for the sake of this dubious acquisition. The downside is that the people of Donbass will suffer their semi-hot war for years yet. However, Putin is the president of Russia, not the president of Donbass. From this perspective, his position, however inhumane, is understandable. He is playing a big game, where both Donbass and the rump of Ukraine are no more than low value chips.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Russia is a great power w/o any sidekicks...So, he has no intention of spending Russian resources for the sake of this dubious acquisition...He is playing a big game, where both Donbass and the rump of Ukraine are no more than low value chips.
     
    Janissar, get a grip on man, everything that you state is completely contradicted by what Putler is quoted as saying:

    “Since any integration of Russia and Ukraine, along with their capacities and competitive advantages, would spell the emergence of a rival — a global rival for both Europe and the world.”
     
  96. @AP
    Gabon has a higher per capital GDP than Belarus.

    Well it does in nominal terms, but in PPP Belarus is higher. Neither of these variables really captures that there is a substantial difference between living in Belarus and living in Gabon on their own.

    Belarus is ranked 5oth on the HDI rankings, whereas Gabon is 115th. This suggests that there may be somewhat more disfunction in governance in Gabon than in Belarus, as the HDI measures life expectancy at birth and expected years of schooling in addition to GNI per capita, the former two variables being dependent on publicly regulated services, education and healthcare.

  97. @AP

    Celebrating that looks bad. Celebrating it by singing your national anthem, how should I put it… is the definition of svidomism. Hard to imagine in most countries.
     
    I suspect you would be pleased if Russians were so nationalistic that when they celebrate they sing the Russian national anthem.

    Lvov LE in 2018 (one of Ukraine’s near top regions) – 73.4 years http://ukrstat.gov.ua/druk/publicat/kat_u/2019/zb/08/zb_tabl_nar_2018.pdf (pp 57)

    Russian LE in 2018 – 72.9 years (73.6 years in first half of 2019)

    So, almost equal, despite aforementioned factors of Ukrainians – especially West Ukrainians – traditionally having healthier lifestyles than Russians.

     

    So it's doubtful that the hospitals are a lot worse than in Russia.

    First, scale is completely incomparable (100x as many cases in Ukraine during the height of the outbreak).
     
    I stand corrected. Looks like Serbia is in second place:

    https://www.who.int/csr/don/06-may-2019-measles-euro/en/

    Ukraine (n= 53 218), Serbia (n=5 076), Israel (3 140), France (n=2 913), Italy, (n=2 686), Russian Federation (n=2 256), Georgia (n=2 203) and Greece (n=2 193).

    I stand corrected. Looks like Serbia is in second place:

    https://www.who.int/csr/don/06-may-2019-measles-euro/en/

    Ukraine (n= 53 218), Serbia (n=5 076), Israel (3 140), France (n=2 913), Italy, (n=2 686), Russian Federation (n=2 256), Georgia (n=2 203) and Greece (n=2 193).

    Come on guys we can beat the Ukrainians for first place!

  98. @Mr. XYZ
    Do the Dutch view themselves as regional or provisional as a result of the "the"' in "the Netherlands"?

    Do the Dutch view themselves as regional or provisional as a result of the “the”‘ in “the Netherlands”?

    No. Nor do Americans vis-a-vis the United States. Same for the United Kingdom, the United Arab Emirates, the Philippines, the Maldives, and the Seychelles. All these plus the Netherlands are collective constructions that group together political or geographic entities and use the definite article in the colloquial names of the countries.

    Ukraine is in another category. The Ukraine is evocative of Ukraine as part of the Russian Empire and USSR. Similarly, it is Gambia and no longer the Gambia which evokes its colonial status as part of the British Empire. And likewise Sudan, not the Sudan and Lebanon, not the Lebanon.

  99. @AnonFromTN
    Putin takes a long view. A lot longer than most people, including the majority of Russians. He takes that long view from the position of strength: Russia is a great power w/o any sidekicks, especially ones of dubious, ever diminishing value. He waits for the Europeans to pay his expense of reintegrating economically and socially degenerated Ukraine. This will happen after a major disaster: a new Chernobyl on one of aged Ukrainian nuclear power stations or a similar disaster on one of the remaining Ukrainian chemical plants. Either will seriously affect Europe, forcing it to see the light. After a major disaster the EU will pay Russia to take the hand grenade from the monkey and will agree to cancel or pay off Ukrainian debts. Putin knows that an attempt of any Russian president to pay anything for Ukraine would result in that person losing power. Whatever his faults, he is not a fool. So, he has no intention of spending Russian resources for the sake of this dubious acquisition. The downside is that the people of Donbass will suffer their semi-hot war for years yet. However, Putin is the president of Russia, not the president of Donbass. From this perspective, his position, however inhumane, is understandable. He is playing a big game, where both Donbass and the rump of Ukraine are no more than low value chips.

    Russia is a great power w/o any sidekicks…So, he has no intention of spending Russian resources for the sake of this dubious acquisition…He is playing a big game, where both Donbass and the rump of Ukraine are no more than low value chips.

    Janissar, get a grip on man, everything that you state is completely contradicted by what Putler is quoted as saying:

    “Since any integration of Russia and Ukraine, along with their capacities and competitive advantages, would spell the emergence of a rival — a global rival for both Europe and the world.”

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Politicians are saying a lot of things, the great majority of which aren’t true. Putin is a politician, in case you did not know.
  100. Ukrainian politologist Mikhail Podolyak makes extremely pessimistic conclusions from what happened in New Sanzhary with those evacuated from Wuhan. According to him, total ineffectiveness of the state in combination with general rottenness of Ukraine that was hiding behind pseudo-patriotism became apparent.

    For those who can read Russian:
    https://znaj.ua/ru/politics/296219-biynya-u-novih-sanzharah-ta-koronavirus-v-ukrajini-zelenskiy-otrimav-zhorstku-vidpovid

    Here he says that Ukraine got a new holiday: the day of the dead state:
    https://glavred.info/opinions/10151567-35-krugov-ada-ili-kak-ukraincy-poluchili-novyy-prazdnik-den-mertvogo-gosudarstva.html
    Translation of the first sentence: we needed just one day to cross ourselves out of civilization and commit an incredible reputational suicide”

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  101. @Mr. Hack

    Russia is a great power w/o any sidekicks...So, he has no intention of spending Russian resources for the sake of this dubious acquisition...He is playing a big game, where both Donbass and the rump of Ukraine are no more than low value chips.
     
    Janissar, get a grip on man, everything that you state is completely contradicted by what Putler is quoted as saying:

    “Since any integration of Russia and Ukraine, along with their capacities and competitive advantages, would spell the emergence of a rival — a global rival for both Europe and the world.”
     

    Politicians are saying a lot of things, the great majority of which aren’t true. Putin is a politician, in case you did not know.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    In this case, Putler makes sense and is something exactly what the great American strategist Zbigniev Brzezinski told us over a quarter of a centrury ago, in his seminal and influentual monograph, "The Grand Chessboard"

    Let's see, shall we take the word of Russia's leader for the past quarter century about what Russia's geopolitical goals might include, or take serously any mutterings of an old sovok loyalist, a "biologist" stuck in a bottom feeder institution that nobody's ever heard of?

    Stick to dusting off you chemistry tubes, "Professor". :-)

  102. @AnonFromTN
    Politicians are saying a lot of things, the great majority of which aren’t true. Putin is a politician, in case you did not know.

    In this case, Putler makes sense and is something exactly what the great American strategist Zbigniev Brzezinski told us over a quarter of a centrury ago, in his seminal and influentual monograph, “The Grand Chessboard”

    Let’s see, shall we take the word of Russia’s leader for the past quarter century about what Russia’s geopolitical goals might include, or take serously any mutterings of an old sovok loyalist, a “biologist” stuck in a bottom feeder institution that nobody’s ever heard of?

    Stick to dusting off you chemistry tubes, “Professor”. 🙂

    • Replies: @Beckow
    When you run out of arguments you always go for ad hominem attacks. Try to see how pointless that is in a virtual discussion and how weak it makes you look.

    Great Zbigniev was not that great. His main strategic idea was to use religious Moslem fanatics in Afghanistan and elsewhere to weaken his bete noire, Russia. We see how well that has worked out with 911 and the slow colonisation of Western Europe and unleashing terrorism. Brzezinski other obsession was to shrink Russia - and enlarge Poland - that is also an unfolding disaster. All it does is to make the countries stuck in the middle suffer and develop less. Russia is still there. An old adage about not striking a king unless you are able to kill him applies.

    The greatness of countries is not binary, it is a continuum. Russia has resources and nukes, it is one of the 4-5 countries around the world that are truly independent. We can argue that it could be 'greater' with Ukraine, or maybe it would be more vulnerable. That changes nothing about the status of an independent great power. Do you know how you can tell? It is conceivable that US would bomb Ukraine or even Sweden - just for the kicks, or maybe some LGBTQ outrage. It is not conceivable that it would bomb Russia. That is how you define greatness.

    , @AnonFromTN
    Dream on. Doctors say that good sleep is very important for your health. Sweet dreams!
  103. @AP
    So the Japanese not letting anyone off a ship, infecting and many of the passengers unnecessarily, has been more civilized?

    In the USA meanwhile, consumers have stopped going to Chinese restaurants and assault random Asian people:

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/20/us/coronavirus-racist-attacks-against-asian-americans/index.html

    Also in Australia, forcing Chinese restaurants to close:

    https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/australasia/article/3050529/coronavirus-chinese-restaurants-shut-doors-australians-shun

    Shark Fin House, which opened 30 years ago in Melbourne’s Chinatown, shut its doors last week after losing 80 per cent of its customers following the outbreak of the Covid-19 disease that originated in Wuhan.

    I’ll bet they’re not shunning Flower Drum or Tea House – both are significantly better places in the CBD – and guys I know who meet every week at Dainty Sichuan (in South Yarra) maintain it’s still bustling (as of last Thursday: maybe they’re dead now).

    In the 90s the lead-time for a mid-week lunch booking at Flower Drum was two months; it’ll be much much shorter now, but not because of some novel flu that will be gone six weeks into the Northern-hemisphere spring, when clickbaiters have to find some other way to get morons to look at ads.

    Hint: if you ever find yourself at Dainty Sichuan, go for the Chongqing Hot Pot (veggie version). Im-pecc-able.

  104. @Mr. Hack
    In this case, Putler makes sense and is something exactly what the great American strategist Zbigniev Brzezinski told us over a quarter of a centrury ago, in his seminal and influentual monograph, "The Grand Chessboard"

    Let's see, shall we take the word of Russia's leader for the past quarter century about what Russia's geopolitical goals might include, or take serously any mutterings of an old sovok loyalist, a "biologist" stuck in a bottom feeder institution that nobody's ever heard of?

    Stick to dusting off you chemistry tubes, "Professor". :-)

    When you run out of arguments you always go for ad hominem attacks. Try to see how pointless that is in a virtual discussion and how weak it makes you look.

    Great Zbigniev was not that great. His main strategic idea was to use religious Moslem fanatics in Afghanistan and elsewhere to weaken his bete noire, Russia. We see how well that has worked out with 911 and the slow colonisation of Western Europe and unleashing terrorism. Brzezinski other obsession was to shrink Russia – and enlarge Poland – that is also an unfolding disaster. All it does is to make the countries stuck in the middle suffer and develop less. Russia is still there. An old adage about not striking a king unless you are able to kill him applies.

    The greatness of countries is not binary, it is a continuum. Russia has resources and nukes, it is one of the 4-5 countries around the world that are truly independent. We can argue that it could be ‘greater’ with Ukraine, or maybe it would be more vulnerable. That changes nothing about the status of an independent great power. Do you know how you can tell? It is conceivable that US would bomb Ukraine or even Sweden – just for the kicks, or maybe some LGBTQ outrage. It is not conceivable that it would bomb Russia. That is how you define greatness.

    • Replies: @AP

    Great Zbigniev was not that great. His main strategic idea was to use religious Moslem fanatics in Afghanistan and elsewhere to weaken his bete noire, Russia. We see how well that has worked out with 911 and the slow colonisation of Western Europe and unleashing terrorism.
     
    Supporting Afghan resistance, thus helping in some small way to topple the Soviet system (it was rotten and likely would have collapsed on its own, but this may have been a small straw to break the camel's back) and opening one's borders are two different things caused by different political actors at different times. It is silly to conflate the two.

    Brzezinski other obsession was to shrink Russia – and enlarge Poland – that is also an unfolding disaster. All it does is to make the countries stuck in the middle suffer and develop less
     
    Countries in the middle are developing quite well. Is your Sovok nostalgia now leading you to claim that you were better off under Soviet rule?
    , @Mr. Hack
    Calling a commenter what he is (in this case a college professor) isn't an "ad hominem attack." If you're referring to my calling him"janissar", well, in my opinion anybody that continuously mocks and denigrates his own (in this case Ukrainian) people, is just that - he seems to be exclusively working for a country that has historically served to try and destroy the language and culture of the Ukrainian people. I would never call you a janissary (I might call you a Ukrainaphope), for as far a I know, you're Slovak and not Ukrainian. I'm just trying to be accurate. :-)

    As far as arguments go, I think that mine, in this case. is quite strong. Although I'm not at all suggesting that our professor should not be allowed to hold any opinions that he feels dear to his heart, I am cautioning other readers to not buy it. He's trying to dismiss the opinions of two heavyweight political strategists that even happen to be on opposite ends of the political spectrum whose opinions just happen to coincide: With Ukraine, Russia becomes a superpower, without Ukraine, Russia remains only a regional player. I'll side with the two heavyweights here, and leave the professor to his biological experiments.

    , @AnonFromTN
    Let the Ukie show his/her/its true colors. I believe this is at least as informative for the readers as meaningful comments.
  105. Why does Ukrainian governance underperform its national IQ level of ~95 by about 1 S.D.? In fact, I think Ukraine might well be the single greatest argument against HBD.

    Because the Ukrainian government is filled with you know who and is more dominated by them than are its neighbors. I am not criticizing the Ukraine, of course – as an American, after all, I’ve had to watch the appalling spectacle of (((Alexander Vindman))) pretending to be an honorable American military officer – and getting away with it!

    And certainly few private Americans would have the balls to demand their government stop bringing in Chinese evacuees. I give Ukrainians credit for that!

  106. @AnonFromTN

    Please stop insulting the Middle Ages
     
    Fair point. My bad.

    Yes, one reason the world sucks so bad is because we left much of the good of the Middle Ages behind us.

  107. Stranded because of coronavirus-caused travel ban at my company. Gave me a lot of time to re-read all the comments and find that many of the excellent commenters are still around.

    How about Thorfinnson? What happened to him?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    I think that he's secluded himself somewhere, and he's finally taken up writing "the great American novel."
  108. Tracking with Ukraine’s economic improvement, Ukrainians’ happiness index has shown huge improvement since the last time it was measured, in 2017, from 8% to 33% considering themselves to be happy.. Ukrainians are now happier than Russians (24%) and tied with Brits:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=913&page=1

    Happiest people in Eastern Europe are Poles (51%). If you include the Balkans – Romanians (63%).

    • Replies: @AP
    Small clarification-index is more happy than unhappy
    , @Dmitry
    Aside from that there might be cultural differences in how this question is viewed in different countries - it looks like support of the "hedonic treadmill" theories, and probably why polling people about happiness, is not a good way to know how well or badly the net situation is in different countries.


    If you know usual "hedonic treadmill" presentations are about things like this i.e. it responds more to recent events, and it varies around only the same level (happiness follows a common kind of homeostatis, as I guess you would expect considering the mechanisms which cause good or bad emotions in the brain are also following homeostatis):

    https://miro.medium.com/max/1024/1*b4vJ7GaD-Hj8EOgKgzVHAQ.jpeg


    https://positivepsychology.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/the-hedonic-treadmill-graph.jpg

    , @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    LOL-
    All you have done is overlapped the end period of desperation at the catastrophic state of the country under Poroshenko..... with the same period of artificial optimism directed to a pseudo-messiah, stemming from the campaign and then election success of Zelensky becoming president you idiot!
    There is absolutely nothing in terms of improvement in prosperity that has generated "happiness".

    You have deliberately lied about the fake study (kiis surveys people around the world? LOL) . Even more bizarre considering just how unlikely it is and how badly Zelensky and his government, and the "state of the country" ratings are doing from all those polls released in the first 2 months of the year. Not just a lowering but 30-40% decreases.

    As you well know, the only answer actual study of happiness, the UN happiness report, listed ukropia as a disastrous 132nd out of 156 states! That is literally worse than most of the African shitholes. If I had to guess I would never have thought that this dump would be THAT low ( not because what I see in ukropia is not a disaster - but that there are so many countries I've not been to that I assumed must be worse), but no.

    Like with the measle thing (deliberately lying about Russia so as to paid troll deflect from Ukraine cesspit perfornance), like with the coronavirus thing (again BS), and even more ineptly with this "happiness" you are deliberately lying. It is time Karlin developed or proves he has some male- reproductive organs and eliminate garbage commentators as you, Instead of working in this nonsense tag-team and blocking me after you beg him all the time. Different view's fine, bias fine, outright premeditated sociopathic lying to spam( real overtime in last 2 blog posts-lol-pathetic) and waste time- not fine.

    Imagine already knowing ukropia is listed 132nd (of course Russia significantly better with identical culture and thinking relating to the polling), .... yet STILL mendaciously vommitting this garbage on here

    AK: AP never asked me to block you. I block you because your posts mostly consist of boorish, often scatological insults and are negative value added to discussions. Your latest sock was doing more or less OK until of late... but this post is an edge case. Continue in this manner and you'll have to crawl back under another sock before too long.
    , @Alfred
    Ukrainians’ happiness index has shown huge improvement

    Sure Ukrainians became much happier when Poroshenko lost the election. They had great hopes of Zelensky stopping the civil war and its associated ethnic-cleansing. They wanted to recommence trade with Russia. A constructive and mutually-beneficial relationship like before.

    Sadly, Zelensky merely continued the same failed policies of Poroshenko. In fact, he tried rewriting the Minsk 2 agreement that was signed by Poroshenko. The government made changes on its website. When the Russians pointed out this farce, they quickly reinstated the original.

    the Ukrainians insist that those in the east must disarm and that the Ukrainian army should seal off the border with Russia - so that the ethnic slaughter might recommence. Obviously, the people in the east will have none of that.

    The fiction that Ukraine will join the EU (like Turkey) is steadfastly maintained in the media.

    Ukrainians are gradually realising that they have been duped once more by (((you know who))). Almost all the government is composed of members of that tribe.
  109. @Beckow
    When you run out of arguments you always go for ad hominem attacks. Try to see how pointless that is in a virtual discussion and how weak it makes you look.

    Great Zbigniev was not that great. His main strategic idea was to use religious Moslem fanatics in Afghanistan and elsewhere to weaken his bete noire, Russia. We see how well that has worked out with 911 and the slow colonisation of Western Europe and unleashing terrorism. Brzezinski other obsession was to shrink Russia - and enlarge Poland - that is also an unfolding disaster. All it does is to make the countries stuck in the middle suffer and develop less. Russia is still there. An old adage about not striking a king unless you are able to kill him applies.

    The greatness of countries is not binary, it is a continuum. Russia has resources and nukes, it is one of the 4-5 countries around the world that are truly independent. We can argue that it could be 'greater' with Ukraine, or maybe it would be more vulnerable. That changes nothing about the status of an independent great power. Do you know how you can tell? It is conceivable that US would bomb Ukraine or even Sweden - just for the kicks, or maybe some LGBTQ outrage. It is not conceivable that it would bomb Russia. That is how you define greatness.

    Great Zbigniev was not that great. His main strategic idea was to use religious Moslem fanatics in Afghanistan and elsewhere to weaken his bete noire, Russia. We see how well that has worked out with 911 and the slow colonisation of Western Europe and unleashing terrorism.

    Supporting Afghan resistance, thus helping in some small way to topple the Soviet system (it was rotten and likely would have collapsed on its own, but this may have been a small straw to break the camel’s back) and opening one’s borders are two different things caused by different political actors at different times. It is silly to conflate the two.

    Brzezinski other obsession was to shrink Russia – and enlarge Poland – that is also an unfolding disaster. All it does is to make the countries stuck in the middle suffer and develop less

    Countries in the middle are developing quite well. Is your Sovok nostalgia now leading you to claim that you were better off under Soviet rule?

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Supporting Afghan resistance, thus helping in some small way to topple the Soviet system (it was rotten and likely would have collapsed on its own, but this may have been a small straw to break the camel’s back) and opening one’s borders are two different things caused by different political actors at different times. It is silly to conflate the two.
     
    Perhaps, but you ignored the part where Zbigniew's heroic Afghan resistance became the same people to launch massive terrorist attacks against America.

    Of course this is a very shady part of American history, seeing as how even Congress admitted that, at a minimum, the 9/11 hijackers had Saudi state financing. And if they were financed by one of America's (and Israel's) closest allies, what does that say? What does it say that a bunch of ex CIA assets were backed that way? It says that the rabbit hole is very deep with the CIA and its evil.

    And I'm telling you Ukrainian nationalists this - the CIA has been oppressing America, helping to feed us consumerism in exchange for our lost liberty, and you will lose your own souls if you allow such people to be your "friends."
  110. @AP

    Great Zbigniev was not that great. His main strategic idea was to use religious Moslem fanatics in Afghanistan and elsewhere to weaken his bete noire, Russia. We see how well that has worked out with 911 and the slow colonisation of Western Europe and unleashing terrorism.
     
    Supporting Afghan resistance, thus helping in some small way to topple the Soviet system (it was rotten and likely would have collapsed on its own, but this may have been a small straw to break the camel's back) and opening one's borders are two different things caused by different political actors at different times. It is silly to conflate the two.

    Brzezinski other obsession was to shrink Russia – and enlarge Poland – that is also an unfolding disaster. All it does is to make the countries stuck in the middle suffer and develop less
     
    Countries in the middle are developing quite well. Is your Sovok nostalgia now leading you to claim that you were better off under Soviet rule?

    Supporting Afghan resistance, thus helping in some small way to topple the Soviet system (it was rotten and likely would have collapsed on its own, but this may have been a small straw to break the camel’s back) and opening one’s borders are two different things caused by different political actors at different times. It is silly to conflate the two.

    Perhaps, but you ignored the part where Zbigniew’s heroic Afghan resistance became the same people to launch massive terrorist attacks against America.

    Of course this is a very shady part of American history, seeing as how even Congress admitted that, at a minimum, the 9/11 hijackers had Saudi state financing. And if they were financed by one of America’s (and Israel’s) closest allies, what does that say? What does it say that a bunch of ex CIA assets were backed that way? It says that the rabbit hole is very deep with the CIA and its evil.

    And I’m telling you Ukrainian nationalists this – the CIA has been oppressing America, helping to feed us consumerism in exchange for our lost liberty, and you will lose your own souls if you allow such people to be your “friends.”

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    the CIA has been oppressing America, helping to feed us consumerism in exchange for our lost liberty, and you will lose your own souls if you allow such people to be your “friends.”
     
    It's not the CIA, but that large electronic glass box that is turned on 24 hours a day in so many Americans homes that's been spewing out the glories of mass consumerism that has ended up placing so many Americans into a cycle of continuous debt. My remedy is for them to turn the box off, pick up a book and start reading, or start listening to ad free music more ("no skips" though). :-)
    , @Hyperborean

    Perhaps, but you ignored the part where Zbigniew’s heroic Afghan resistance became the same people to launch massive terrorist attacks against America.
     
    In hindsight, it is darkly amusing.

    https://compote.slate.com/images/63bdde23-e176-4688-80aa-5f7d5abf7f36.jpeg

  111. @Beckow
    When you run out of arguments you always go for ad hominem attacks. Try to see how pointless that is in a virtual discussion and how weak it makes you look.

    Great Zbigniev was not that great. His main strategic idea was to use religious Moslem fanatics in Afghanistan and elsewhere to weaken his bete noire, Russia. We see how well that has worked out with 911 and the slow colonisation of Western Europe and unleashing terrorism. Brzezinski other obsession was to shrink Russia - and enlarge Poland - that is also an unfolding disaster. All it does is to make the countries stuck in the middle suffer and develop less. Russia is still there. An old adage about not striking a king unless you are able to kill him applies.

    The greatness of countries is not binary, it is a continuum. Russia has resources and nukes, it is one of the 4-5 countries around the world that are truly independent. We can argue that it could be 'greater' with Ukraine, or maybe it would be more vulnerable. That changes nothing about the status of an independent great power. Do you know how you can tell? It is conceivable that US would bomb Ukraine or even Sweden - just for the kicks, or maybe some LGBTQ outrage. It is not conceivable that it would bomb Russia. That is how you define greatness.

    Calling a commenter what he is (in this case a college professor) isn’t an “ad hominem attack.” If you’re referring to my calling him”janissar”, well, in my opinion anybody that continuously mocks and denigrates his own (in this case Ukrainian) people, is just that – he seems to be exclusively working for a country that has historically served to try and destroy the language and culture of the Ukrainian people. I would never call you a janissary (I might call you a Ukrainaphope), for as far a I know, you’re Slovak and not Ukrainian. I’m just trying to be accurate. 🙂

    As far as arguments go, I think that mine, in this case. is quite strong. Although I’m not at all suggesting that our professor should not be allowed to hold any opinions that he feels dear to his heart, I am cautioning other readers to not buy it. He’s trying to dismiss the opinions of two heavyweight political strategists that even happen to be on opposite ends of the political spectrum whose opinions just happen to coincide: With Ukraine, Russia becomes a superpower, without Ukraine, Russia remains only a regional player. I’ll side with the two heavyweights here, and leave the professor to his biological experiments.

    • Replies: @Epigon

    a country that has historically served to try and destroy the language and culture of the Ukrainian people.
     
    >historical
    >Ukrainian
    >culture
    >language
    , @Alfred
    working for a country that has historically served to try and destroy the language and culture of the Ukrainian people

    Are you accusing him of working for the Germans? the Americans?

    FYI, in Crimea, they teach Ukrainian at school to those who wish to learn it. OTOH, the Zionists and Nazis who have taken over the country have banned Russian TV, local pro-Russian TV, newspapers and many website such as VK.com, Sputnik.com, ok.ru etc.

    Schools in Russia’s Sevastopol begin teaching Ukrainian language

    I hardly need remind you that most of Ukraine's soldiers in Crimea opted to join the Russian army when Crimea was reunited with Russia. :-)

    The reality is that Ukraine has much to gain by cooperating with Russia. The Russians don't need Ukraine other than as a buffer against the ambitions of NATO.
  112. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Supporting Afghan resistance, thus helping in some small way to topple the Soviet system (it was rotten and likely would have collapsed on its own, but this may have been a small straw to break the camel’s back) and opening one’s borders are two different things caused by different political actors at different times. It is silly to conflate the two.
     
    Perhaps, but you ignored the part where Zbigniew's heroic Afghan resistance became the same people to launch massive terrorist attacks against America.

    Of course this is a very shady part of American history, seeing as how even Congress admitted that, at a minimum, the 9/11 hijackers had Saudi state financing. And if they were financed by one of America's (and Israel's) closest allies, what does that say? What does it say that a bunch of ex CIA assets were backed that way? It says that the rabbit hole is very deep with the CIA and its evil.

    And I'm telling you Ukrainian nationalists this - the CIA has been oppressing America, helping to feed us consumerism in exchange for our lost liberty, and you will lose your own souls if you allow such people to be your "friends."

    the CIA has been oppressing America, helping to feed us consumerism in exchange for our lost liberty, and you will lose your own souls if you allow such people to be your “friends.”

    It’s not the CIA, but that large electronic glass box that is turned on 24 hours a day in so many Americans homes that’s been spewing out the glories of mass consumerism that has ended up placing so many Americans into a cycle of continuous debt. My remedy is for them to turn the box off, pick up a book and start reading, or start listening to ad free music more (“no skips” though). 🙂

    • Replies: @Dreadilk
    You really think TV is not fed a narrative from CIA? I my self would blame the CIA only to the point that it serves neocons. Had we had a good ruling class CIA would be curtailed.

    With Trump and now the Bern on the rise I feel that empire is about to see a lot of shrinkage.
  113. @AP
    Tracking with Ukraine's economic improvement, Ukrainians' happiness index has shown huge improvement since the last time it was measured, in 2017, from 8% to 33% considering themselves to be happy.. Ukrainians are now happier than Russians (24%) and tied with Brits:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=913&page=1

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/materials/pr/220201102_happy/2ukr.jpg

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/materials/pr/220201102_happy/3ukr.jpg

    Happiest people in Eastern Europe are Poles (51%). If you include the Balkans - Romanians (63%).

    Small clarification-index is more happy than unhappy

  114. The CIA is cultural poison and a fine example of how the American secret police and other regime institutions “defended” America and her vassals against communism at the expense of their country’s soul.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html

    https://www.salon.com/2012/05/27/exclusive_the_paris_review_the_cold_war_and_the_cia/

  115. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Supporting Afghan resistance, thus helping in some small way to topple the Soviet system (it was rotten and likely would have collapsed on its own, but this may have been a small straw to break the camel’s back) and opening one’s borders are two different things caused by different political actors at different times. It is silly to conflate the two.
     
    Perhaps, but you ignored the part where Zbigniew's heroic Afghan resistance became the same people to launch massive terrorist attacks against America.

    Of course this is a very shady part of American history, seeing as how even Congress admitted that, at a minimum, the 9/11 hijackers had Saudi state financing. And if they were financed by one of America's (and Israel's) closest allies, what does that say? What does it say that a bunch of ex CIA assets were backed that way? It says that the rabbit hole is very deep with the CIA and its evil.

    And I'm telling you Ukrainian nationalists this - the CIA has been oppressing America, helping to feed us consumerism in exchange for our lost liberty, and you will lose your own souls if you allow such people to be your "friends."

    Perhaps, but you ignored the part where Zbigniew’s heroic Afghan resistance became the same people to launch massive terrorist attacks against America.

    In hindsight, it is darkly amusing.

  116. @Guillaume Tell
    Stranded because of coronavirus-caused travel ban at my company. Gave me a lot of time to re-read all the comments and find that many of the excellent commenters are still around.

    How about Thorfinnson? What happened to him?

    I think that he’s secluded himself somewhere, and he’s finally taken up writing “the great American novel.”

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    Thanks for the update. That's too bad, I really enjoyed his comments.

    How is the Russian/Ukraine virtual war going here? Which side is winning?

    Milan is a mess right now.
  117. @Mr. Hack
    In this case, Putler makes sense and is something exactly what the great American strategist Zbigniev Brzezinski told us over a quarter of a centrury ago, in his seminal and influentual monograph, "The Grand Chessboard"

    Let's see, shall we take the word of Russia's leader for the past quarter century about what Russia's geopolitical goals might include, or take serously any mutterings of an old sovok loyalist, a "biologist" stuck in a bottom feeder institution that nobody's ever heard of?

    Stick to dusting off you chemistry tubes, "Professor". :-)

    Dream on. Doctors say that good sleep is very important for your health. Sweet dreams!

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Thanks for your good wishes for my health - I average about 8 hours of sleep per night. My conscience is clean when I think about my Ukrainian ancestors. How about you?
  118. @Mr. Hack

    the CIA has been oppressing America, helping to feed us consumerism in exchange for our lost liberty, and you will lose your own souls if you allow such people to be your “friends.”
     
    It's not the CIA, but that large electronic glass box that is turned on 24 hours a day in so many Americans homes that's been spewing out the glories of mass consumerism that has ended up placing so many Americans into a cycle of continuous debt. My remedy is for them to turn the box off, pick up a book and start reading, or start listening to ad free music more ("no skips" though). :-)

    You really think TV is not fed a narrative from CIA? I my self would blame the CIA only to the point that it serves neocons. Had we had a good ruling class CIA would be curtailed.

    With Trump and now the Bern on the rise I feel that empire is about to see a lot of shrinkage.

  119. @Mr. Hack
    I think that he's secluded himself somewhere, and he's finally taken up writing "the great American novel."

    Thanks for the update. That’s too bad, I really enjoyed his comments.

    How is the Russian/Ukraine virtual war going here? Which side is winning?

    Milan is a mess right now.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Actually, I'm not really sure what happened to Thorfinnsson? I hope that he's Okay and I too always appreciated his input here at this blog. Perhaps, Karlin can give us an update as to his doings, the two of them seemed to be on friendly terms?...

    As far as the "virtual war" that is going between Ukrainians and Russians, I guess it's all a matter of where one stands on the issues to begin with. People tend to see things through their own rose colored glasses.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Hack was trolling you. Thorfinnsson is not currently commenting much - but you should know where to find him!
  120. @AnonFromTN
    Dream on. Doctors say that good sleep is very important for your health. Sweet dreams!

    Thanks for your good wishes for my health – I average about 8 hours of sleep per night. My conscience is clean when I think about my Ukrainian ancestors. How about you?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    As you studiously avoid living in your beloved Ukraine, you cannot be accused of its murder. You are only an accomplice after the fact.
  121. @Anatoly Karlin

    I don’t know of any hospital staff anywhere who wouldn’t be thrilled when getting the news that they would not be exposed to people with a contagious deadly illness.
     
    Celebrating that looks bad. Celebrating it by singing your national anthem, how should I put it... is the definition of svidomism. Hard to imagine in most countries.

    As for your quotes around the doctors and nurses there – life expectancy in Lviv oblast is higher than in most of Russia. While lifestyle factors play a large role in this it does suggest that the hospitals aren’t worse than Russian ones.
     
    Lvov LE in 2018 (one of Ukraine's near top regions) - 73.4 years http://ukrstat.gov.ua/druk/publicat/kat_u/2019/zb/08/zb_tabl_nar_2018.pdf (pp 57)

    Russian LE in 2018 - 72.9 years (73.6 years in first half of 2019)

    So, almost equal, despite aforementioned factors of Ukrainians - especially West Ukrainians - traditionally having healthier lifestyles than Russians.

    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/russia-ukraine-life-expectancy-1990-2018.png

    Given that Russia is in second place regarding the measles outbreak, this is not something for Russians to brag about.
     
    Doesn't accord with what some quick Googling reveals.

    First, scale is completely incomparable (100x as many cases in Ukraine during the height of the outbreak).

    Second, Russia might have the highest incidence in Europe, but there are several countries that are higher or similar in per capita terms (not even all of them are in Eastern Europe).

    Celebrating it by singing your national anthem

    Yes it’s true and a little amusing if they are supposedly wanting to be “21st century Europe”, although in a more rational context this patriotism would be something noble and attractive.

    But if this is not too much of a strawman I thought one of (a bit idiosyncratic) arguments of this blog, is that we should support especially caveman nationalism, because it could help to prevent one of the dangers of 21th century developed countries – arrival of unfiltered, unskilled economic immigrants that will later increase damage the economy as welfare dependents?

    So to make something consistent with your argument, Ukraine is “well protected”, and you should be happy about the attitudes there.

    Where I would reply

    1. These “differences in rates of caveman nationalism” are more inevitable effect, rather than some interesting or useful cause – usually they are the natural human effect of unpleasant living situation (economic crisis, political crisis and a low quality of propaganda consumption).

    It’s why it could have been predicted – is not some coincidence – that the poorestcountry in Europe, and one with a civil war, Ukraine, is now the most nationist, racist, etc, country in Europe. Or in local Russian politics, why you can predict years ago, how money turned Moscow to a city of gay hipsters,* while the politics of wagon makers in Tagil is less sympathetic to vegan burgers and Scandinavian interior decoration.

    If in a different possible world, Ukraine becomes as rich and peaceful as Norway, then after 1-2 generations, there will be something like “English gentlemen behaviour” becoming universal in the population.

    2. Low income countries like Ukraine don’t need caveman nationalism to protect them from economic immigration. In modern immigration – income is like an inverse of topographical gradient or slope, and immigrants behave on average like water in relation to it. Nobody wants to immigrate to Ukraine, where you can work as a slave for 3 months, for the price of a single iphone.

    *i.e. It is in wealthy hipster countries where anti-immigration could have been useful, as all the world wants to live in them. Ukrainian style of skinheadism is not going to be popular in wealthy, stable, hipster countries, but more likely to weaken support for filtered immigration policy from a large part of the bourgeoisie.

    Actually for wealthy hipster countries, anti-immigration policy will be probably be more successful from gay liberal people like Pim Fortuyn, who have rational ideological reasons, or alternative some money saving reasons which will be presented in countries like Switzerland.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    1. These “differences in rates of caveman nationalism” are more inevitable effect, rather than some interesting or useful cause – usually they are the natural human effect of unpleasant living situation (economic crisis, political crisis and a low quality of propaganda consumption).
     
    It is getting near midnight for me so I will apologise for not being very cerebral right now, but while I believe materialist rationales shape at least part of people's attitudes, how do you account for the large political differences between similar countries like Italy on one side and Portugal and Greece on the other?
  122. @Guillaume Tell
    Thanks for the update. That's too bad, I really enjoyed his comments.

    How is the Russian/Ukraine virtual war going here? Which side is winning?

    Milan is a mess right now.

    Actually, I’m not really sure what happened to Thorfinnsson? I hope that he’s Okay and I too always appreciated his input here at this blog. Perhaps, Karlin can give us an update as to his doings, the two of them seemed to be on friendly terms?…

    As far as the “virtual war” that is going between Ukrainians and Russians, I guess it’s all a matter of where one stands on the issues to begin with. People tend to see things through their own rose colored glasses.

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    It's one white-on-white wars that look absolutely tragic to the outside observers. WW1 certainly looks like that too, in retrospect at least (whereas the actual participants did not think that way for sure).

    Yes, it would be great if Anatoly could give us some updates about TF. I hope he's alright.
  123. @Dmitry

    Celebrating it by singing your national anthem
     
    Yes it's true and a little amusing if they are supposedly wanting to be "21st century Europe", although in a more rational context this patriotism would be something noble and attractive.

    But if this is not too much of a strawman I thought one of (a bit idiosyncratic) arguments of this blog, is that we should support especially caveman nationalism, because it could help to prevent one of the dangers of 21th century developed countries - arrival of unfiltered, unskilled economic immigrants that will later increase damage the economy as welfare dependents?

    So to make something consistent with your argument, Ukraine is "well protected", and you should be happy about the attitudes there.

    Where I would reply

    1. These "differences in rates of caveman nationalism" are more inevitable effect, rather than some interesting or useful cause - usually they are the natural human effect of unpleasant living situation (economic crisis, political crisis and a low quality of propaganda consumption).

    It's why it could have been predicted - is not some coincidence - that the poorestcountry in Europe, and one with a civil war, Ukraine, is now the most nationist, racist, etc, country in Europe. Or in local Russian politics, why you can predict years ago, how money turned Moscow to a city of gay hipsters,* while the politics of wagon makers in Tagil is less sympathetic to vegan burgers and Scandinavian interior decoration.

    If in a different possible world, Ukraine becomes as rich and peaceful as Norway, then after 1-2 generations, there will be something like "English gentlemen behaviour" becoming universal in the population.

    2. Low income countries like Ukraine don't need caveman nationalism to protect them from economic immigration. In modern immigration – income is like an inverse of topographical gradient or slope, and immigrants behave on average like water in relation to it. Nobody wants to immigrate to Ukraine, where you can work as a slave for 3 months, for the price of a single iphone.

    -

    *i.e. It is in wealthy hipster countries where anti-immigration could have been useful, as all the world wants to live in them. Ukrainian style of skinheadism is not going to be popular in wealthy, stable, hipster countries, but more likely to weaken support for filtered immigration policy from a large part of the bourgeoisie.

    Actually for wealthy hipster countries, anti-immigration policy will be probably be more successful from gay liberal people like Pim Fortuyn, who have rational ideological reasons, or alternative some money saving reasons which will be presented in countries like Switzerland.

    1. These “differences in rates of caveman nationalism” are more inevitable effect, rather than some interesting or useful cause – usually they are the natural human effect of unpleasant living situation (economic crisis, political crisis and a low quality of propaganda consumption).

    It is getting near midnight for me so I will apologise for not being very cerebral right now, but while I believe materialist rationales shape at least part of people’s attitudes, how do you account for the large political differences between similar countries like Italy on one side and Portugal and Greece on the other?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Is there so much difference in immigration attitudes between Italy, Portugal and Greece?

    I didn't know in detail, but I thought the public in these countries have generally a much more hostile to immigrants orientation compared to the liberal attitudes of certain too successful and stable European economies?

    On the other hand, it's just too bourgeois in those countries, to create the large numbers of Ukrainian style of ultranationalist, skinheads, etc, in the population.
  124. @Beckow
    When you run out of arguments you always go for ad hominem attacks. Try to see how pointless that is in a virtual discussion and how weak it makes you look.

    Great Zbigniev was not that great. His main strategic idea was to use religious Moslem fanatics in Afghanistan and elsewhere to weaken his bete noire, Russia. We see how well that has worked out with 911 and the slow colonisation of Western Europe and unleashing terrorism. Brzezinski other obsession was to shrink Russia - and enlarge Poland - that is also an unfolding disaster. All it does is to make the countries stuck in the middle suffer and develop less. Russia is still there. An old adage about not striking a king unless you are able to kill him applies.

    The greatness of countries is not binary, it is a continuum. Russia has resources and nukes, it is one of the 4-5 countries around the world that are truly independent. We can argue that it could be 'greater' with Ukraine, or maybe it would be more vulnerable. That changes nothing about the status of an independent great power. Do you know how you can tell? It is conceivable that US would bomb Ukraine or even Sweden - just for the kicks, or maybe some LGBTQ outrage. It is not conceivable that it would bomb Russia. That is how you define greatness.

    Let the Ukie show his/her/its true colors. I believe this is at least as informative for the readers as meaningful comments.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Whimper...whimper....
  125. @AP
    Tracking with Ukraine's economic improvement, Ukrainians' happiness index has shown huge improvement since the last time it was measured, in 2017, from 8% to 33% considering themselves to be happy.. Ukrainians are now happier than Russians (24%) and tied with Brits:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=913&page=1

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/materials/pr/220201102_happy/2ukr.jpg

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/materials/pr/220201102_happy/3ukr.jpg

    Happiest people in Eastern Europe are Poles (51%). If you include the Balkans - Romanians (63%).

    Aside from that there might be cultural differences in how this question is viewed in different countries – it looks like support of the “hedonic treadmill” theories, and probably why polling people about happiness, is not a good way to know how well or badly the net situation is in different countries.

    If you know usual “hedonic treadmill” presentations are about things like this i.e. it responds more to recent events, and it varies around only the same level (happiness follows a common kind of homeostatis, as I guess you would expect considering the mechanisms which cause good or bad emotions in the brain are also following homeostatis):

    • Replies: @AP

    Aside from that there might be cultural differences in how this question is viewed in different countries
     
    Correct, however it shows dramatic improvement in Ukraine relative to before and Ukraine's results can be compared to those of other nearby countries.
  126. @Hyperborean

    1. These “differences in rates of caveman nationalism” are more inevitable effect, rather than some interesting or useful cause – usually they are the natural human effect of unpleasant living situation (economic crisis, political crisis and a low quality of propaganda consumption).
     
    It is getting near midnight for me so I will apologise for not being very cerebral right now, but while I believe materialist rationales shape at least part of people's attitudes, how do you account for the large political differences between similar countries like Italy on one side and Portugal and Greece on the other?

    Is there so much difference in immigration attitudes between Italy, Portugal and Greece?

    I didn’t know in detail, but I thought the public in these countries have generally a much more hostile to immigrants orientation compared to the liberal attitudes of certain too successful and stable European economies?

    On the other hand, it’s just too bourgeois in those countries, to create the large numbers of Ukrainian style of ultranationalist, skinheads, etc, in the population.

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    FWIW- the last 2 times I went to Barcelona, the main street Las Ramblas ( like Champs-elysees in Paris, or Regent Street, London) was lined throughout the centre with African prostitutes.

    There must be a decent market for them among the locals because in this very busy area nobody was bothering them. I only feel sorry for these people, but I emphasise that on Las Ramblas they were all African, not Romanian, Ukrainian or from the middle east.
    , @Guillaume Tell
    I can respond to that. In Italy attitudes are on average much less pro-immigration than in Northern European countries (that's an average of course).

    And I would not that if it were not for Bergoglio and his rump modernist church, the attitudes would be even more hostile. In fact the single most pro-allauakbars force in Italy is the (nominallY) catholic hierarchy and its affiliates.
    , @Hyperborean
    So unemployment (https://www.statista.com/statistics/268830/unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/)

    Greece: 17%
    Spain: 13.8%
    Italy: 9.5%
    Portugal: 6.2%

    GDP (PPP) per capita (2019, International Dollars, wikipedia):
    Greece: 30,522
    Spain: 42,120
    Italy: 40,737
    Portugal: 33,409

    It seems in terms of national identity Greek respondents are a lot more hawkish than I expected considering their election results in recent years (Syriza, followed by a return to New Democracy).

    Italians are more dovish than Greeks (though still high by average Western European standards).

    Portugal and Spain are rather liberal (on average, it varies slightly by the question)

    https://www.pewforum.org/2018/10/29/eastern-and-western-europeans-differ-on-importance-of-religion-views-of-minorities-and-key-social-issues/

    Opinions of non-EU immigration Very/fairly positive (+) Very/fairly negative (-)

    December 2011

    Greece: 23%+ 74% -
    Spain: 48% + 42% -
    Italy: 18% + 75% -
    Portugal: 48% + 42% -

    June 2019

    Greece: 29%+ 68% -
    Spain: 64% + 27% -
    Italy: 37% + 55% -
    Portugal: 56% + 29% -

    https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/Chart/getChart/themeKy/59/groupKy/279

    2018 "When children today grow up, will they be better off financially than their parents?"

    Better off

    Spain: 24%
    Greece: 18%
    Italy: 19%

    Worse off

    Spain: 72%
    Greece: 69%
    Italy: 61%

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/database/indicator/74/

    So while there is some connection between feelings on immigration and economic welfare, it seems like the correlation is stronger inside countries than it is necessarily between countries (once one accounts for Iron Curtain, etc.).
  127. @Dmitry
    Is there so much difference in immigration attitudes between Italy, Portugal and Greece?

    I didn't know in detail, but I thought the public in these countries have generally a much more hostile to immigrants orientation compared to the liberal attitudes of certain too successful and stable European economies?

    On the other hand, it's just too bourgeois in those countries, to create the large numbers of Ukrainian style of ultranationalist, skinheads, etc, in the population.

    FWIW- the last 2 times I went to Barcelona, the main street Las Ramblas ( like Champs-elysees in Paris, or Regent Street, London) was lined throughout the centre with African prostitutes.

    There must be a decent market for them among the locals because in this very busy area nobody was bothering them. I only feel sorry for these people, but I emphasise that on Las Ramblas they were all African, not Romanian, Ukrainian or from the middle east.

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    Please note that Barcelona is in Spain, a country that was not part of OP 's question.

    Catalans are a at the absolute extreme of European leftism and dhimmism. Most of them will prefer speaking Arabic than Castillan.

    , @AnonFromTN
    Last time I was in Barcelona (August 2019), I did not see too many African prostitutes on Las Ramblas. However, overall the impression was rather depressing: too many halal shops, too many women in burkas, etc. I did not see any of that in Barcelona before (early 2000s). It appears that Catalonia is succumbing to the globo-homo even faster than the rest of Spain or Portugal (I was in Valencia and in Lisbon in 2018).
    , @Dmitry
    Well, in Spain, and the richer part of Spain.

    And prostitution seems one of the mainstream and dominant hobbies in Spain (along with casinos, tapas, football, etc), so you see some crazy things in the streets there.

    I saw in some quite small cities in Spain, walking in the street - suddenly you can see bars full of dozens of blonde (Polish?) prostitutes standing outside in lingerie.

    I mean, everyone knows extreme it is there - that in the most central and important (and tourist) of street of Madrid (Gran Via), in front of an official Nike store - the street all full with prostitutes standing lined on the pavement in daytime.

  128. Such a gross video. Over 50 years old farmer wives, their sagging flesh jumping with each note of some soviet-era anthem sung in schadenfreude over not having to host sick countrymen in a hospital. The latter looking like pure sovok, claustrophobic, dim lights, kafkian architecture blending into the mass of biomatter.
    One of the women is even crying out of happiness!

    This is some Wild Nineties shit, rumors, conspiracies, fear mongering, frenzied crowds xenophobic against anyone outside of their shitty frontier settlement.
    Does anybody think this is good optics? Is this a place you’d want to be in (as outsider or part of the mob)?

    Try to set your midwit ideologies aside and see how absolutely disgusting this whole thing looks.

  129. @AnonFromTN
    Let the Ukie show his/her/its true colors. I believe this is at least as informative for the readers as meaningful comments.

    Whimper…whimper….

  130. @Mr. Hack
    Actually, I'm not really sure what happened to Thorfinnsson? I hope that he's Okay and I too always appreciated his input here at this blog. Perhaps, Karlin can give us an update as to his doings, the two of them seemed to be on friendly terms?...

    As far as the "virtual war" that is going between Ukrainians and Russians, I guess it's all a matter of where one stands on the issues to begin with. People tend to see things through their own rose colored glasses.

    It’s one white-on-white wars that look absolutely tragic to the outside observers. WW1 certainly looks like that too, in retrospect at least (whereas the actual participants did not think that way for sure).

    Yes, it would be great if Anatoly could give us some updates about TF. I hope he’s alright.

  131. @Dmitry
    Is there so much difference in immigration attitudes between Italy, Portugal and Greece?

    I didn't know in detail, but I thought the public in these countries have generally a much more hostile to immigrants orientation compared to the liberal attitudes of certain too successful and stable European economies?

    On the other hand, it's just too bourgeois in those countries, to create the large numbers of Ukrainian style of ultranationalist, skinheads, etc, in the population.

    I can respond to that. In Italy attitudes are on average much less pro-immigration than in Northern European countries (that’s an average of course).

    And I would not that if it were not for Bergoglio and his rump modernist church, the attitudes would be even more hostile. In fact the single most pro-allauakbars force in Italy is the (nominallY) catholic hierarchy and its affiliates.

  132. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    FWIW- the last 2 times I went to Barcelona, the main street Las Ramblas ( like Champs-elysees in Paris, or Regent Street, London) was lined throughout the centre with African prostitutes.

    There must be a decent market for them among the locals because in this very busy area nobody was bothering them. I only feel sorry for these people, but I emphasise that on Las Ramblas they were all African, not Romanian, Ukrainian or from the middle east.

    Please note that Barcelona is in Spain, a country that was not part of OP ‘s question.

    Catalans are a at the absolute extreme of European leftism and dhimmism. Most of them will prefer speaking Arabic than Castillan.

  133. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    FWIW- the last 2 times I went to Barcelona, the main street Las Ramblas ( like Champs-elysees in Paris, or Regent Street, London) was lined throughout the centre with African prostitutes.

    There must be a decent market for them among the locals because in this very busy area nobody was bothering them. I only feel sorry for these people, but I emphasise that on Las Ramblas they were all African, not Romanian, Ukrainian or from the middle east.

    Last time I was in Barcelona (August 2019), I did not see too many African prostitutes on Las Ramblas. However, overall the impression was rather depressing: too many halal shops, too many women in burkas, etc. I did not see any of that in Barcelona before (early 2000s). It appears that Catalonia is succumbing to the globo-homo even faster than the rest of Spain or Portugal (I was in Valencia and in Lisbon in 2018).

    • Agree: Guillaume Tell
    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    That is a real shame to hear(globohomo,not the disappearing African prostitutes! ).
    Last time I was there was 2014. For pure enjoyment ( second trip didn't involve the beach at all) we enjoyed visiting Barcelona more than places like Paris, Athens, London, Milan, Madrid and Copenhagen.
    , @Dmitry
    That's nothing special for Catalonia.

    All the rich parts of Spain, have quite a lot of Muslim and African immigrants, some probably are illegal immigrants (although the numbers can see overestimated by tourists, because they flood around some centres of cities, and where tourists visit).

    (And also Spain has millions of South Americans, but they are from years past).

    the globo-homo even

     

    Well, Muslim population in Spain, will be some of the only groups against homosexuality.

    Mainstream attitude of Spain has been liberal about sexual topics for many years now.

    Something like the 1960s in London, was the same time in Spain, but more like an underground social change with Franco. And when Franco goes, then Madrid of 1980s, has a cultural movement openly like 1960s London.

    http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20190816-the-explosion-of-colour-that-followed-a-dictator
  134. @AP
    Tracking with Ukraine's economic improvement, Ukrainians' happiness index has shown huge improvement since the last time it was measured, in 2017, from 8% to 33% considering themselves to be happy.. Ukrainians are now happier than Russians (24%) and tied with Brits:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=913&page=1

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/materials/pr/220201102_happy/2ukr.jpg

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/materials/pr/220201102_happy/3ukr.jpg

    Happiest people in Eastern Europe are Poles (51%). If you include the Balkans - Romanians (63%).

    LOL-
    All you have done is overlapped the end period of desperation at the catastrophic state of the country under Poroshenko….. with the same period of artificial optimism directed to a pseudo-messiah, stemming from the campaign and then election success of Zelensky becoming president you idiot!
    There is absolutely nothing in terms of improvement in prosperity that has generated “happiness”.

    You have deliberately lied about the fake study (kiis surveys people around the world? LOL) . Even more bizarre considering just how unlikely it is and how badly Zelensky and his government, and the “state of the country” ratings are doing from all those polls released in the first 2 months of the year. Not just a lowering but 30-40% decreases.

    As you well know, the only answer actual study of happiness, the UN happiness report, listed ukropia as a disastrous 132nd out of 156 states! That is literally worse than most of the African shitholes. If I had to guess I would never have thought that this dump would be THAT low ( not because what I see in ukropia is not a disaster – but that there are so many countries I’ve not been to that I assumed must be worse), but no.

    Like with the measle thing (deliberately lying about Russia so as to paid troll deflect from Ukraine cesspit perfornance), like with the coronavirus thing (again BS), and even more ineptly with this “happiness” you are deliberately lying. It is time Karlin developed or proves he has some male- reproductive organs and eliminate garbage commentators as you, Instead of working in this nonsense tag-team and blocking me after you beg him all the time. Different view’s fine, bias fine, outright premeditated sociopathic lying to spam( real overtime in last 2 blog posts-lol-pathetic) and waste time- not fine.

    Imagine already knowing ukropia is listed 132nd (of course Russia significantly better with identical culture and thinking relating to the polling), …. yet STILL mendaciously vommitting this garbage on here

    AK: AP never asked me to block you. I block you because your posts mostly consist of boorish, often scatological insults and are negative value added to discussions. Your latest sock was doing more or less OK until of late… but this post is an edge case. Continue in this manner and you’ll have to crawl back under another sock before too long.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    My two cents in defense of freedom of speech.
    I don’t think that Ukies should be banned. What they post here is very revealing, a lot more revealing than they think. Let them show their true colors for all to see.

    As to happiness, Ukrainian PM Goncharuk recently said on live Ukie TV (for those who understand Ukrainian, YouTube version here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFa8AvRX_lo&feature=youtu.be)
    that to pay their mortgage Ukrainians need to sell drugs or weapons and promised (promises, promises…) that his government will work hard to reduce mortgage interest to below 10% annually.

    , @AP
    My stalker got triggered into a flood of nonsense. The only relevant thing written is here:

    You have deliberately lied about the fake study (kiis surveys people around the world? LOL)
     
    Thanks for showing you can't read Cyrillic script.

    I linked to the study:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=913&page=1

    KIIS was collaborating with Gallup and did the Ukrainian part of the international poll:

    Дослідження, про яке йдеться, проводиться асоціацією незалежних дослідницьких агентств Gallup International з 1947 року в 46 країнах світу, зокрема певний час і в Україні. На усьому пострадянському просторі представником цієї асоціації є дослідницький холдинг Ромир, а в Україні дослідження проводив Київський міжнародний інститут соціології (КМІС).

    To be sure, Ukrainians are still among the least happy people on the planet. But they have improved a lot since 2017 and are now less unhappy than are Russians.

    Happiest and least happy countries:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/materials/pr/220201102_happy/3ukr.jpg

    Ukraine improvement:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/materials/pr/220201102_happy/2ukr.jpg

    This poll simply directly asks people if they are happy/satisfied with life. The happiest country in the world is Columbia.

    In contrast, the UN "Happiness" poll includes variables such as corruption, GDP per capita, "freedom to make life choices", etc. Using such variables, the happiest country in the world is Finland. Yet out of 183 countries, "happiest" Finland has the #32 highest suicide rate in the world:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate#List_by_the_World_Health_Organization_(2016)

    (Columbia is #119).

    So think to yourself which poll is a more valid measure of "happiness." The UN report seems to measure how nice a country is by modern standards, and conflates with this happiness.

  135. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    LOL-
    All you have done is overlapped the end period of desperation at the catastrophic state of the country under Poroshenko..... with the same period of artificial optimism directed to a pseudo-messiah, stemming from the campaign and then election success of Zelensky becoming president you idiot!
    There is absolutely nothing in terms of improvement in prosperity that has generated "happiness".

    You have deliberately lied about the fake study (kiis surveys people around the world? LOL) . Even more bizarre considering just how unlikely it is and how badly Zelensky and his government, and the "state of the country" ratings are doing from all those polls released in the first 2 months of the year. Not just a lowering but 30-40% decreases.

    As you well know, the only answer actual study of happiness, the UN happiness report, listed ukropia as a disastrous 132nd out of 156 states! That is literally worse than most of the African shitholes. If I had to guess I would never have thought that this dump would be THAT low ( not because what I see in ukropia is not a disaster - but that there are so many countries I've not been to that I assumed must be worse), but no.

    Like with the measle thing (deliberately lying about Russia so as to paid troll deflect from Ukraine cesspit perfornance), like with the coronavirus thing (again BS), and even more ineptly with this "happiness" you are deliberately lying. It is time Karlin developed or proves he has some male- reproductive organs and eliminate garbage commentators as you, Instead of working in this nonsense tag-team and blocking me after you beg him all the time. Different view's fine, bias fine, outright premeditated sociopathic lying to spam( real overtime in last 2 blog posts-lol-pathetic) and waste time- not fine.

    Imagine already knowing ukropia is listed 132nd (of course Russia significantly better with identical culture and thinking relating to the polling), .... yet STILL mendaciously vommitting this garbage on here

    AK: AP never asked me to block you. I block you because your posts mostly consist of boorish, often scatological insults and are negative value added to discussions. Your latest sock was doing more or less OK until of late... but this post is an edge case. Continue in this manner and you'll have to crawl back under another sock before too long.

    My two cents in defense of freedom of speech.
    I don’t think that Ukies should be banned. What they post here is very revealing, a lot more revealing than they think. Let them show their true colors for all to see.

    As to happiness, Ukrainian PM Goncharuk recently said on live Ukie TV (for those who understand Ukrainian, YouTube version here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFa8AvRX_lo&feature=youtu.be)
    that to pay their mortgage Ukrainians need to sell drugs or weapons and promised (promises, promises…) that his government will work hard to reduce mortgage interest to below 10% annually.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Your battle here is with Putler, not with any rambunctious Ukies, Herr Professor. He's the one not able to see Russia's destiny in the sun without the Ukrainians. Perhaps, he's right, maybe Russians really do need Ukraine's "capacities and competitive advantages" in order to thrive and succeed. He certainly sounds a lot smarter than you, and he stayed home to lead his nation, and you?

    Looks to me like you left home in order to teach mountain crackers and other assorted globo-homo (with no good restaurants in sight!). :-(

    , @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    I think he's running before he can crawl there...... they practically don't have any mortgage market to talk about! No large-scale series of property development throughout the country. From the little that is offered there - 30 to 40% interest is what you're more likely to come across.

    Russia in the last 4 years have rapidly improved on this. Obviously massive areas of new housing projects and interest now about 9 to 10%- from millions of new mortgages taken out.
    The 1% interest of europeans on mortgages a long way away, but it it is improving nicely.
  136. @AnonFromTN
    Last time I was in Barcelona (August 2019), I did not see too many African prostitutes on Las Ramblas. However, overall the impression was rather depressing: too many halal shops, too many women in burkas, etc. I did not see any of that in Barcelona before (early 2000s). It appears that Catalonia is succumbing to the globo-homo even faster than the rest of Spain or Portugal (I was in Valencia and in Lisbon in 2018).

    That is a real shame to hear(globohomo,not the disappearing African prostitutes! ).
    Last time I was there was 2014. For pure enjoyment ( second trip didn’t involve the beach at all) we enjoyed visiting Barcelona more than places like Paris, Athens, London, Milan, Madrid and Copenhagen.

  137. @AnonFromTN
    My two cents in defense of freedom of speech.
    I don’t think that Ukies should be banned. What they post here is very revealing, a lot more revealing than they think. Let them show their true colors for all to see.

    As to happiness, Ukrainian PM Goncharuk recently said on live Ukie TV (for those who understand Ukrainian, YouTube version here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFa8AvRX_lo&feature=youtu.be)
    that to pay their mortgage Ukrainians need to sell drugs or weapons and promised (promises, promises…) that his government will work hard to reduce mortgage interest to below 10% annually.

    Your battle here is with Putler, not with any rambunctious Ukies, Herr Professor. He’s the one not able to see Russia’s destiny in the sun without the Ukrainians. Perhaps, he’s right, maybe Russians really do need Ukraine’s “capacities and competitive advantages” in order to thrive and succeed. He certainly sounds a lot smarter than you, and he stayed home to lead his nation, and you?

    Looks to me like you left home in order to teach mountain crackers and other assorted globo-homo (with no good restaurants in sight!). 🙁

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Wow! That’s new. In their attempts to deny the reality Ukies are even prepared to praise Putin, who they usually accuse of everything, from cold winters to their own shameful behavior towards those poor souls evacuated from Wuhan.
  138. @AnonFromTN
    My two cents in defense of freedom of speech.
    I don’t think that Ukies should be banned. What they post here is very revealing, a lot more revealing than they think. Let them show their true colors for all to see.

    As to happiness, Ukrainian PM Goncharuk recently said on live Ukie TV (for those who understand Ukrainian, YouTube version here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFa8AvRX_lo&feature=youtu.be)
    that to pay their mortgage Ukrainians need to sell drugs or weapons and promised (promises, promises…) that his government will work hard to reduce mortgage interest to below 10% annually.

    I think he’s running before he can crawl there…… they practically don’t have any mortgage market to talk about! No large-scale series of property development throughout the country. From the little that is offered there – 30 to 40% interest is what you’re more likely to come across.

    Russia in the last 4 years have rapidly improved on this. Obviously massive areas of new housing projects and interest now about 9 to 10%- from millions of new mortgages taken out.
    The 1% interest of europeans on mortgages a long way away, but it it is improving nicely.

  139. Nothing of particular substance but I’ve noticed investments / participation by Chinese companies in developing wind farms in Ukraine.

    SyvashEnergoProm achieved financial closure for the windfarm’s first phase worth €155m ($175m) in January 2019.

    POWERCHINA and its subsidiary Powerchina Fujian Electric Power Engineering was awarded the engineering, procurement and construction (EPC) contract by NBT to build the windfarm in September 2018.

    https://www.power-technology.com/projects/syvash-onshore-wind-farm/

    China State Grid and Norwegian developer NBT said they’ll build a 750MW wind farm in Ukraine at a cost of €1bn ($1.1bn), in what the former hailed as a landmark of energy cooperation between China and Norway.

    China Power Technology Equipment, unit of State Grid, and NBT said the Zofia project in the Zaporozhye region of Ukraine will be fully developed by the end of 2021 as one of China’s ‘Belt and Road’projects.

    https://www.rechargenews.com/wind/china-and-norway-link-to-build-1bn-wind-farm-in-ukraine/2-1-693192

    Representatives of the Chinese company confirmed their interest in taking part in several renewable energy projects in Ukraine. The announced 500 MW wind farm in the Mykolaiv Oblast would be only a pilot project.

    https://eurasianetwork.eu/2017/07/25/chinese-investors-will-build-the-largest-wind-farm-in-ukraine/

    • Replies: @A123
    Wind farms are an ecological disaster.

    The blades have to be incredibly durable and are thus non-recyclable. They pile up in land fills so rapidly. There soon may be no affordable place to dump end-of-life Greta blades. (1)

    [T]he Argus Leader reports that more than 100 wind turbine blades measuring 120 ft long have been dumped in a Sioux Falls, South Dakota, landfill, but there’s a problem: the massive blades are taking up too much room, according to local City officials. …

    A wind farm near Albert Lea, Minn., brought dozens of their old turbine blades to the Sioux Falls dump this summer.

    But City Hall says it won’t take anymore unless owners take more steps to make the massive fiberglass pieces less space consuming.
     
    https://i1.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2019/09/crushed-wind-turbine-blade-60-ton-truck.png

    Worse yet -- The bird species extermination is drawing the wrath of environmentalists. (2)

    ... planned extension of the wind farms by another 15 turbines. The group has launched a lawsuit against the plan, claiming the new installations would be built too close to the village of Falkenrehde, situated only 600 meters (656 yards) away, and that the turbines would threaten the red kite raptors breeding in the area.

    Legal actions against German wind energy projects have multiplied in recent years, leading to a dramatic decline in the number of new onshore wind farms.
     
    Onshore wind power is effectively a dying, zombie industry. It will only last as long as the subsidies prop up the corpses. Expect abandoned eyesores to be the norm.

    PEACE 😇
    _______


    (1) https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/09/the-environmental-fiasco-of-wind-energy.php

    (2) https://m.dw.com/en/german-wind-energy-stalls-amid-public-resistance-and-regulatory-hurdles/a-50280676
    , @Alfred
    Nothing of particular substance but I’ve noticed investments / participation by Chinese companies in developing wind farms in Ukraine.

    Kiev airport is full of publicity about wind farms. A more useless way of producing electricity, it is hard to imagine. These wind farms are rated at 500 and 750MW. But that only happens when the wind is not too slow and not too fast. It is useless for most purposes as an equal backup using fossil/nuclear fuels is required to be available at all time.

    Because electricity consumption in Ukraine is 30% below what it was in 1990, and even though Chernobyl is no more, there is no shortage of electric generation capacity.

    Even the Germans admit that fake renewable energy is a failure. Without electricity from France (nuclear), Poland (coal) and Switzerland (hydro), Norway(hydro), the German grid would collapse. When the wind is just right, and it is in the middle of the night, Germany generates too much electricity and it has to exported (for free) to Norway so that they can pump water back uphill. It is an absolute nightmare to manage.
  140. I rather interest stay high. Low interest rates lead to overpriced housing.

  141. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    FWIW- the last 2 times I went to Barcelona, the main street Las Ramblas ( like Champs-elysees in Paris, or Regent Street, London) was lined throughout the centre with African prostitutes.

    There must be a decent market for them among the locals because in this very busy area nobody was bothering them. I only feel sorry for these people, but I emphasise that on Las Ramblas they were all African, not Romanian, Ukrainian or from the middle east.

    Well, in Spain, and the richer part of Spain.

    And prostitution seems one of the mainstream and dominant hobbies in Spain (along with casinos, tapas, football, etc), so you see some crazy things in the streets there.

    I saw in some quite small cities in Spain, walking in the street – suddenly you can see bars full of dozens of blonde (Polish?) prostitutes standing outside in lingerie.

    I mean, everyone knows extreme it is there – that in the most central and important (and tourist) of street of Madrid (Gran Via), in front of an official Nike store – the street all full with prostitutes standing lined on the pavement in daytime.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    They'll be Ukrainians. Possibly a few Belorussians as well these days, sadly.
  142. @AnonFromTN
    Last time I was in Barcelona (August 2019), I did not see too many African prostitutes on Las Ramblas. However, overall the impression was rather depressing: too many halal shops, too many women in burkas, etc. I did not see any of that in Barcelona before (early 2000s). It appears that Catalonia is succumbing to the globo-homo even faster than the rest of Spain or Portugal (I was in Valencia and in Lisbon in 2018).

    That’s nothing special for Catalonia.

    All the rich parts of Spain, have quite a lot of Muslim and African immigrants, some probably are illegal immigrants (although the numbers can see overestimated by tourists, because they flood around some centres of cities, and where tourists visit).

    (And also Spain has millions of South Americans, but they are from years past).

    the globo-homo even

    Well, Muslim population in Spain, will be some of the only groups against homosexuality.

    Mainstream attitude of Spain has been liberal about sexual topics for many years now.

    Something like the 1960s in London, was the same time in Spain, but more like an underground social change with Franco. And when Franco goes, then Madrid of 1980s, has a cultural movement openly like 1960s London.

    http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20190816-the-explosion-of-colour-that-followed-a-dictator

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    That’s the irony of it all, or you can call it poetic justice. Muslims will not only destroy Europe, as intended. They will make it vehemently anti-homo and vehemently anti-Semitic. Talk of unintended consequences.
  143. @Mr. Hack
    Your battle here is with Putler, not with any rambunctious Ukies, Herr Professor. He's the one not able to see Russia's destiny in the sun without the Ukrainians. Perhaps, he's right, maybe Russians really do need Ukraine's "capacities and competitive advantages" in order to thrive and succeed. He certainly sounds a lot smarter than you, and he stayed home to lead his nation, and you?

    Looks to me like you left home in order to teach mountain crackers and other assorted globo-homo (with no good restaurants in sight!). :-(

    Wow! That’s new. In their attempts to deny the reality Ukies are even prepared to praise Putin, who they usually accuse of everything, from cold winters to their own shameful behavior towards those poor souls evacuated from Wuhan.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Like I said, even Putler seems a lot smarter than you! :-)
  144. @Mr. Hack
    Thanks for your good wishes for my health - I average about 8 hours of sleep per night. My conscience is clean when I think about my Ukrainian ancestors. How about you?

    As you studiously avoid living in your beloved Ukraine, you cannot be accused of its murder. You are only an accomplice after the fact.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    The only ones murdering Ukrainians are the Russkies in Donbas, so as long a I avoid living there,I'll be okay. I wonder why you didn't sign up with the separatists and help defend your land? Instead, you chose teaching at some hillbilly college (with no good restaurants in sight!)? You're the one that ran away - I was born here! :-)
  145. @AnonFromTN
    Wow! That’s new. In their attempts to deny the reality Ukies are even prepared to praise Putin, who they usually accuse of everything, from cold winters to their own shameful behavior towards those poor souls evacuated from Wuhan.

    Like I said, even Putler seems a lot smarter than you! 🙂

  146. @Dmitry
    That's nothing special for Catalonia.

    All the rich parts of Spain, have quite a lot of Muslim and African immigrants, some probably are illegal immigrants (although the numbers can see overestimated by tourists, because they flood around some centres of cities, and where tourists visit).

    (And also Spain has millions of South Americans, but they are from years past).

    the globo-homo even

     

    Well, Muslim population in Spain, will be some of the only groups against homosexuality.

    Mainstream attitude of Spain has been liberal about sexual topics for many years now.

    Something like the 1960s in London, was the same time in Spain, but more like an underground social change with Franco. And when Franco goes, then Madrid of 1980s, has a cultural movement openly like 1960s London.

    http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20190816-the-explosion-of-colour-that-followed-a-dictator

    That’s the irony of it all, or you can call it poetic justice. Muslims will not only destroy Europe, as intended. They will make it vehemently anti-homo and vehemently anti-Semitic. Talk of unintended consequences.

  147. @AnonFromTN
    As you studiously avoid living in your beloved Ukraine, you cannot be accused of its murder. You are only an accomplice after the fact.

    The only ones murdering Ukrainians are the Russkies in Donbas, so as long a I avoid living there,I’ll be okay. I wonder why you didn’t sign up with the separatists and help defend your land? Instead, you chose teaching at some hillbilly college (with no good restaurants in sight!)? You’re the one that ran away – I was born here! 🙂

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Donbass freedom fighters manage just fine w/o me. They beat Ukie military many times. But Ukie army had unrivaled success in robbing, torturing, and raping unarmed civilians in areas it controls. You should be proud of them. Це перемога! (For those who don’t read Ukrainian, this means “It’s a victory!”)
  148. @china-russia-all-the-way
    Nothing of particular substance but I've noticed investments / participation by Chinese companies in developing wind farms in Ukraine.

    SyvashEnergoProm achieved financial closure for the windfarm’s first phase worth €155m ($175m) in January 2019.

    POWERCHINA and its subsidiary Powerchina Fujian Electric Power Engineering was awarded the engineering, procurement and construction (EPC) contract by NBT to build the windfarm in September 2018.
     
    https://www.power-technology.com/projects/syvash-onshore-wind-farm/

    China State Grid and Norwegian developer NBT said they’ll build a 750MW wind farm in Ukraine at a cost of €1bn ($1.1bn), in what the former hailed as a landmark of energy cooperation between China and Norway.

    China Power Technology Equipment, unit of State Grid, and NBT said the Zofia project in the Zaporozhye region of Ukraine will be fully developed by the end of 2021 as one of China’s ‘Belt and Road’projects.
     
    https://www.rechargenews.com/wind/china-and-norway-link-to-build-1bn-wind-farm-in-ukraine/2-1-693192

    Representatives of the Chinese company confirmed their interest in taking part in several renewable energy projects in Ukraine. The announced 500 MW wind farm in the Mykolaiv Oblast would be only a pilot project.
     
    https://eurasianetwork.eu/2017/07/25/chinese-investors-will-build-the-largest-wind-farm-in-ukraine/

    Wind farms are an ecological disaster.

    The blades have to be incredibly durable and are thus non-recyclable. They pile up in land fills so rapidly. There soon may be no affordable place to dump end-of-life Greta blades. (1)

    [T]he Argus Leader reports that more than 100 wind turbine blades measuring 120 ft long have been dumped in a Sioux Falls, South Dakota, landfill, but there’s a problem: the massive blades are taking up too much room, according to local City officials. …

    A wind farm near Albert Lea, Minn., brought dozens of their old turbine blades to the Sioux Falls dump this summer.

    But City Hall says it won’t take anymore unless owners take more steps to make the massive fiberglass pieces less space consuming.

    Worse yet — The bird species extermination is drawing the wrath of environmentalists. (2)

    … planned extension of the wind farms by another 15 turbines. The group has launched a lawsuit against the plan, claiming the new installations would be built too close to the village of Falkenrehde, situated only 600 meters (656 yards) away, and that the turbines would threaten the red kite raptors breeding in the area.

    Legal actions against German wind energy projects have multiplied in recent years, leading to a dramatic decline in the number of new onshore wind farms.

    Onshore wind power is effectively a dying, zombie industry. It will only last as long as the subsidies prop up the corpses. Expect abandoned eyesores to be the norm.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/09/the-environmental-fiasco-of-wind-energy.php

    (2) https://m.dw.com/en/german-wind-energy-stalls-amid-public-resistance-and-regulatory-hurdles/a-50280676

  149. @Mr. Hack
    Calling a commenter what he is (in this case a college professor) isn't an "ad hominem attack." If you're referring to my calling him"janissar", well, in my opinion anybody that continuously mocks and denigrates his own (in this case Ukrainian) people, is just that - he seems to be exclusively working for a country that has historically served to try and destroy the language and culture of the Ukrainian people. I would never call you a janissary (I might call you a Ukrainaphope), for as far a I know, you're Slovak and not Ukrainian. I'm just trying to be accurate. :-)

    As far as arguments go, I think that mine, in this case. is quite strong. Although I'm not at all suggesting that our professor should not be allowed to hold any opinions that he feels dear to his heart, I am cautioning other readers to not buy it. He's trying to dismiss the opinions of two heavyweight political strategists that even happen to be on opposite ends of the political spectrum whose opinions just happen to coincide: With Ukraine, Russia becomes a superpower, without Ukraine, Russia remains only a regional player. I'll side with the two heavyweights here, and leave the professor to his biological experiments.

    a country that has historically served to try and destroy the language and culture of the Ukrainian people.

    >historical
    >Ukrainian
    >culture
    >language

  150. @AP

    One has to suspect that people focused on the non-Ukrainians and thought Ukraine was going to be used as some sort of dumping ground for evacuees from China.
     
    If 70 evacuees needed police protection to avoid being harmed, do you think anyone would be able to protect lots of Syrian or African migrants if they were brought to Ukraine?

    If 70 evacuees needed police protection to avoid being harmed, do you think anyone would be able to protect lots of Syrian or African migrants if they were brought to Ukraine?

    Possibly not but what are you getting at?

  151. @Beckow
    You can't interview those guys as they are throwing stones, they might kill you. For them it is very simple, and for once I am very sympathetic. This is also a preview of coming attractions in Ukraine, big guys with anger issues who think everybody is out to screw them. This will be entertaining. Zelensky better have his plane engines running.

    But from who was on the bus, I see what's possibly going on: there were Dominicanas, Ticas and Portenos on that bus, Latin scum who used to wash dishes and other things in Wuhan (what else do you think they would be doing there?) A profession that Ukies have a monopoly on in these parts, so the pimps struck.

    Latin scum who used to wash dishes and other things in Wuhan (what else do you think they would be doing there?)

    I doubt that labor costs have risen high enough in China–especially in the interior–for Caribbeans/Central Americans to go there to wash dishes or do similar low-end work.

  152. @Mr. Hack
    The only ones murdering Ukrainians are the Russkies in Donbas, so as long a I avoid living there,I'll be okay. I wonder why you didn't sign up with the separatists and help defend your land? Instead, you chose teaching at some hillbilly college (with no good restaurants in sight!)? You're the one that ran away - I was born here! :-)

    Donbass freedom fighters manage just fine w/o me. They beat Ukie military many times. But Ukie army had unrivaled success in robbing, torturing, and raping unarmed civilians in areas it controls. You should be proud of them. Це перемога! (For those who don’t read Ukrainian, this means “It’s a victory!”)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Aw c'mon Janissar, don't be so modest, of course the "DumbAss Freedom Fighters" need your talents back home. One of their many Russian imported "leaders" just yesterday was featured on 60 Minutes,
    where they reviewed the final verdict of the Dutch court that has conclusively assigned guilt to Russian military units in the downing of civilian flight MH17 over DumbAss. General Girkin sure looks like a cowardly dupe, running around freely on Moscow streets. Not a very bright "leader" and an awfully stupid operation there run by your boys. I'm sure that a high IQ individual like you could do a much better job running the show back home.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-flight-17-ukraine-298-killed-russians-trial-march-60-minutes-2020-02-23/
  153. @AnonFromTN
    Donbass freedom fighters manage just fine w/o me. They beat Ukie military many times. But Ukie army had unrivaled success in robbing, torturing, and raping unarmed civilians in areas it controls. You should be proud of them. Це перемога! (For those who don’t read Ukrainian, this means “It’s a victory!”)

    Aw c’mon Janissar, don’t be so modest, of course the “DumbAss Freedom Fighters” need your talents back home. One of their many Russian imported “leaders” just yesterday was featured on 60 Minutes,
    where they reviewed the final verdict of the Dutch court that has conclusively assigned guilt to Russian military units in the downing of civilian flight MH17 over DumbAss. General Girkin sure looks like a cowardly dupe, running around freely on Moscow streets. Not a very bright “leader” and an awfully stupid operation there run by your boys. I’m sure that a high IQ individual like you could do a much better job running the show back home.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-flight-17-ukraine-298-killed-russians-trial-march-60-minutes-2020-02-23/

    • Troll: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Dreadilk
    Someone is triggered.
    , @jony
    60 Minutes story and fawning over Elliot Higgins's Bellingcat is completely contradicted by recent reports.

    http://johnhelmer.net/open-seasame-nato-military-intelligence-agencies-repeatedly-reported-in-secret-there-was-no-evidence-of-a-russian-buk-missile-in-eastern-ukraine-or-firing-on-mh17/

    This may be based on US satellite surveillance - the most important piece of evidence ever in this case, which is not getting released by US officials.
    , @Aedib

    the “DumbAss Freedom Fighters”
     
    Butthurt
  154. @Guillaume Tell
    Thanks for the update. That's too bad, I really enjoyed his comments.

    How is the Russian/Ukraine virtual war going here? Which side is winning?

    Milan is a mess right now.

    Hack was trolling you. Thorfinnsson is not currently commenting much – but you should know where to find him!

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    @AK : lost my password due to change of phone.... :(
  155. @Dmitry
    Well, in Spain, and the richer part of Spain.

    And prostitution seems one of the mainstream and dominant hobbies in Spain (along with casinos, tapas, football, etc), so you see some crazy things in the streets there.

    I saw in some quite small cities in Spain, walking in the street - suddenly you can see bars full of dozens of blonde (Polish?) prostitutes standing outside in lingerie.

    I mean, everyone knows extreme it is there - that in the most central and important (and tourist) of street of Madrid (Gran Via), in front of an official Nike store - the street all full with prostitutes standing lined on the pavement in daytime.

    They’ll be Ukrainians. Possibly a few Belorussians as well these days, sadly.

  156. @Dmitry
    Aside from that there might be cultural differences in how this question is viewed in different countries - it looks like support of the "hedonic treadmill" theories, and probably why polling people about happiness, is not a good way to know how well or badly the net situation is in different countries.


    If you know usual "hedonic treadmill" presentations are about things like this i.e. it responds more to recent events, and it varies around only the same level (happiness follows a common kind of homeostatis, as I guess you would expect considering the mechanisms which cause good or bad emotions in the brain are also following homeostatis):

    https://miro.medium.com/max/1024/1*b4vJ7GaD-Hj8EOgKgzVHAQ.jpeg


    https://positivepsychology.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/the-hedonic-treadmill-graph.jpg

    Aside from that there might be cultural differences in how this question is viewed in different countries

    Correct, however it shows dramatic improvement in Ukraine relative to before and Ukraine’s results can be compared to those of other nearby countries.

  157. @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    LOL-
    All you have done is overlapped the end period of desperation at the catastrophic state of the country under Poroshenko..... with the same period of artificial optimism directed to a pseudo-messiah, stemming from the campaign and then election success of Zelensky becoming president you idiot!
    There is absolutely nothing in terms of improvement in prosperity that has generated "happiness".

    You have deliberately lied about the fake study (kiis surveys people around the world? LOL) . Even more bizarre considering just how unlikely it is and how badly Zelensky and his government, and the "state of the country" ratings are doing from all those polls released in the first 2 months of the year. Not just a lowering but 30-40% decreases.

    As you well know, the only answer actual study of happiness, the UN happiness report, listed ukropia as a disastrous 132nd out of 156 states! That is literally worse than most of the African shitholes. If I had to guess I would never have thought that this dump would be THAT low ( not because what I see in ukropia is not a disaster - but that there are so many countries I've not been to that I assumed must be worse), but no.

    Like with the measle thing (deliberately lying about Russia so as to paid troll deflect from Ukraine cesspit perfornance), like with the coronavirus thing (again BS), and even more ineptly with this "happiness" you are deliberately lying. It is time Karlin developed or proves he has some male- reproductive organs and eliminate garbage commentators as you, Instead of working in this nonsense tag-team and blocking me after you beg him all the time. Different view's fine, bias fine, outright premeditated sociopathic lying to spam( real overtime in last 2 blog posts-lol-pathetic) and waste time- not fine.

    Imagine already knowing ukropia is listed 132nd (of course Russia significantly better with identical culture and thinking relating to the polling), .... yet STILL mendaciously vommitting this garbage on here

    AK: AP never asked me to block you. I block you because your posts mostly consist of boorish, often scatological insults and are negative value added to discussions. Your latest sock was doing more or less OK until of late... but this post is an edge case. Continue in this manner and you'll have to crawl back under another sock before too long.

    My stalker got triggered into a flood of nonsense. The only relevant thing written is here:

    You have deliberately lied about the fake study (kiis surveys people around the world? LOL)

    Thanks for showing you can’t read Cyrillic script.

    I linked to the study:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=913&page=1

    KIIS was collaborating with Gallup and did the Ukrainian part of the international poll:

    Дослідження, про яке йдеться, проводиться асоціацією незалежних дослідницьких агентств Gallup International з 1947 року в 46 країнах світу, зокрема певний час і в Україні. На усьому пострадянському просторі представником цієї асоціації є дослідницький холдинг Ромир, а в Україні дослідження проводив Київський міжнародний інститут соціології (КМІС).

    To be sure, Ukrainians are still among the least happy people on the planet. But they have improved a lot since 2017 and are now less unhappy than are Russians.

    Happiest and least happy countries:

    Ukraine improvement:

    This poll simply directly asks people if they are happy/satisfied with life. The happiest country in the world is Columbia.

    In contrast, the UN “Happiness” poll includes variables such as corruption, GDP per capita, “freedom to make life choices”, etc. Using such variables, the happiest country in the world is Finland. Yet out of 183 countries, “happiest” Finland has the #32 highest suicide rate in the world:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate#List_by_the_World_Health_Organization_(2016)

    (Columbia is #119).

    So think to yourself which poll is a more valid measure of “happiness.” The UN report seems to measure how nice a country is by modern standards, and conflates with this happiness.

    • Replies: @Dreadilk
    I don't consider either a valid measure. But one can make the argument that if you are surrounded by happy people you would be more likely to off your self since you can't find anyone who might be as miserable as you.
  158. @Mr. Hack
    Aw c'mon Janissar, don't be so modest, of course the "DumbAss Freedom Fighters" need your talents back home. One of their many Russian imported "leaders" just yesterday was featured on 60 Minutes,
    where they reviewed the final verdict of the Dutch court that has conclusively assigned guilt to Russian military units in the downing of civilian flight MH17 over DumbAss. General Girkin sure looks like a cowardly dupe, running around freely on Moscow streets. Not a very bright "leader" and an awfully stupid operation there run by your boys. I'm sure that a high IQ individual like you could do a much better job running the show back home.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-flight-17-ukraine-298-killed-russians-trial-march-60-minutes-2020-02-23/

    Someone is triggered.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    https://youtu.be/wDedUcmvgL8

    The horse's name is Trigger...
  159. @AP
    My stalker got triggered into a flood of nonsense. The only relevant thing written is here:

    You have deliberately lied about the fake study (kiis surveys people around the world? LOL)
     
    Thanks for showing you can't read Cyrillic script.

    I linked to the study:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=913&page=1

    KIIS was collaborating with Gallup and did the Ukrainian part of the international poll:

    Дослідження, про яке йдеться, проводиться асоціацією незалежних дослідницьких агентств Gallup International з 1947 року в 46 країнах світу, зокрема певний час і в Україні. На усьому пострадянському просторі представником цієї асоціації є дослідницький холдинг Ромир, а в Україні дослідження проводив Київський міжнародний інститут соціології (КМІС).

    To be sure, Ukrainians are still among the least happy people on the planet. But they have improved a lot since 2017 and are now less unhappy than are Russians.

    Happiest and least happy countries:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/materials/pr/220201102_happy/3ukr.jpg

    Ukraine improvement:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/materials/pr/220201102_happy/2ukr.jpg

    This poll simply directly asks people if they are happy/satisfied with life. The happiest country in the world is Columbia.

    In contrast, the UN "Happiness" poll includes variables such as corruption, GDP per capita, "freedom to make life choices", etc. Using such variables, the happiest country in the world is Finland. Yet out of 183 countries, "happiest" Finland has the #32 highest suicide rate in the world:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate#List_by_the_World_Health_Organization_(2016)

    (Columbia is #119).

    So think to yourself which poll is a more valid measure of "happiness." The UN report seems to measure how nice a country is by modern standards, and conflates with this happiness.

    I don’t consider either a valid measure. But one can make the argument that if you are surrounded by happy people you would be more likely to off your self since you can’t find anyone who might be as miserable as you.

  160. @Dreadilk
    Someone is triggered.

    The horse’s name is Trigger…

  161. @Dmitry
    Is there so much difference in immigration attitudes between Italy, Portugal and Greece?

    I didn't know in detail, but I thought the public in these countries have generally a much more hostile to immigrants orientation compared to the liberal attitudes of certain too successful and stable European economies?

    On the other hand, it's just too bourgeois in those countries, to create the large numbers of Ukrainian style of ultranationalist, skinheads, etc, in the population.

    So unemployment (https://www.statista.com/statistics/268830/unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/)

    Greece: 17%
    Spain: 13.8%
    Italy: 9.5%
    Portugal: 6.2%

    GDP (PPP) per capita (2019, International Dollars, wikipedia):
    Greece: 30,522
    Spain: 42,120
    Italy: 40,737
    Portugal: 33,409

    It seems in terms of national identity Greek respondents are a lot more hawkish than I expected considering their election results in recent years (Syriza, followed by a return to New Democracy).

    Italians are more dovish than Greeks (though still high by average Western European standards).

    Portugal and Spain are rather liberal (on average, it varies slightly by the question)

    https://www.pewforum.org/2018/10/29/eastern-and-western-europeans-differ-on-importance-of-religion-views-of-minorities-and-key-social-issues/

    Opinions of non-EU immigration Very/fairly positive (+) Very/fairly negative (-)

    December 2011

    Greece: 23%+ 74% –
    Spain: 48% + 42% –
    Italy: 18% + 75% –
    Portugal: 48% + 42% –

    June 2019

    Greece: 29%+ 68% –
    Spain: 64% + 27% –
    Italy: 37% + 55% –
    Portugal: 56% + 29% –

    https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/Chart/getChart/themeKy/59/groupKy/279

    2018 “When children today grow up, will they be better off financially than their parents?”

    Better off

    Spain: 24%
    Greece: 18%
    Italy: 19%

    Worse off

    Spain: 72%
    Greece: 69%
    Italy: 61%

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/database/indicator/74/

    So while there is some connection between feelings on immigration and economic welfare, it seems like the correlation is stronger inside countries than it is necessarily between countries (once one accounts for Iron Curtain, etc.).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Compared to Italy and Greece; Spain and Portugal might be a bit modified culturally by their imperial history.

    For example, in Spain they absorb all these millions of Latin Americans, who seem to be like a part of the scenary now. And Spanish media reports in a much more detail about Latin American politics than sometimes about Europe.

    So that Spain's dual view of itself is not just like a small European country (although EU is also a strong part of their identity), but also as a cultural centre and key representative of the 500 million people Spanish speaking world.

    And I guess Portugal might have some similar (although I know a lot of Brazilians don't like them) through Brazil. So it's not just a 10 million people in Portugal, little country which the more powerful countries of Europe are almost unaffected by - but also they have a another identity as part of a 230 million world of people with Portuguese mother tongue.

  162. Hmm, the EU is still keeping the borders open with Italy, even though it is spreading there like wildfire. They can still close the external ones. There are so many Ukrainian gastarbeiters in Polund, and Ulyana Suprun has neoliberalized the healthcare system so much, the country is on the verge of another disaster.

  163. @Mr. Hack
    Aw c'mon Janissar, don't be so modest, of course the "DumbAss Freedom Fighters" need your talents back home. One of their many Russian imported "leaders" just yesterday was featured on 60 Minutes,
    where they reviewed the final verdict of the Dutch court that has conclusively assigned guilt to Russian military units in the downing of civilian flight MH17 over DumbAss. General Girkin sure looks like a cowardly dupe, running around freely on Moscow streets. Not a very bright "leader" and an awfully stupid operation there run by your boys. I'm sure that a high IQ individual like you could do a much better job running the show back home.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-flight-17-ukraine-298-killed-russians-trial-march-60-minutes-2020-02-23/

    60 Minutes story and fawning over Elliot Higgins’s Bellingcat is completely contradicted by recent reports.

    http://johnhelmer.net/open-seasame-nato-military-intelligence-agencies-repeatedly-reported-in-secret-there-was-no-evidence-of-a-russian-buk-missile-in-eastern-ukraine-or-firing-on-mh17/

    This may be based on US satellite surveillance – the most important piece of evidence ever in this case, which is not getting released by US officials.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    You need to inform the Dutch court, that has spent an inordinate amount of time and resources in coming to their conclusion, that they've been duped and manipulated by Elliott Higgins. Russia needs to appeal the decision. Of course, the Dutch claim that Russia has been very uncooperative up to this point in trying to help them with their investigations?...
  164. @jony
    60 Minutes story and fawning over Elliot Higgins's Bellingcat is completely contradicted by recent reports.

    http://johnhelmer.net/open-seasame-nato-military-intelligence-agencies-repeatedly-reported-in-secret-there-was-no-evidence-of-a-russian-buk-missile-in-eastern-ukraine-or-firing-on-mh17/

    This may be based on US satellite surveillance - the most important piece of evidence ever in this case, which is not getting released by US officials.

    You need to inform the Dutch court, that has spent an inordinate amount of time and resources in coming to their conclusion, that they’ve been duped and manipulated by Elliott Higgins. Russia needs to appeal the decision. Of course, the Dutch claim that Russia has been very uncooperative up to this point in trying to help them with their investigations?…

  165. The Dutch court reminds me of that judge in the US who keeps ruling for multi-billion dollar judgements against Iran for 9/11, even though the 9/11 terrorists belong to a sect that is hardcare anti-Iranian, which is funded by their mortal enemy.

  166. @Mr. Hack
    Aw c'mon Janissar, don't be so modest, of course the "DumbAss Freedom Fighters" need your talents back home. One of their many Russian imported "leaders" just yesterday was featured on 60 Minutes,
    where they reviewed the final verdict of the Dutch court that has conclusively assigned guilt to Russian military units in the downing of civilian flight MH17 over DumbAss. General Girkin sure looks like a cowardly dupe, running around freely on Moscow streets. Not a very bright "leader" and an awfully stupid operation there run by your boys. I'm sure that a high IQ individual like you could do a much better job running the show back home.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-flight-17-ukraine-298-killed-russians-trial-march-60-minutes-2020-02-23/

    the “DumbAss Freedom Fighters”

    Butthurt

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    They go together, don't they? :-)
  167. @Aedib

    the “DumbAss Freedom Fighters”
     
    Butthurt

    They go together, don’t they? 🙂

    • Replies: @Aedib
    I think you are unable to accept the results of the Debaltsevo battle.
  168. @Mr. Hack
    They go together, don't they? :-)

    I think you are unable to accept the results of the Debaltsevo battle.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    The Ukrainian side still commemorates the deaths of 168 of their very best. At least these heroes received proper Christian burials, not like those on the other side that have to have their dead incinerated so as not to betray their Russian citizenship.

    https://youtu.be/Vybra8zMlE4
  169. @Aedib
    I think you are unable to accept the results of the Debaltsevo battle.

    The Ukrainian side still commemorates the deaths of 168 of their very best. At least these heroes received proper Christian burials, not like those on the other side that have to have their dead incinerated so as not to betray their Russian citizenship.

    • Replies: @Aedib
    Still Donbas arises as the victorious side after the Debaltsevo battle.
  170. @Mr. Hack
    The Ukrainian side still commemorates the deaths of 168 of their very best. At least these heroes received proper Christian burials, not like those on the other side that have to have their dead incinerated so as not to betray their Russian citizenship.

    https://youtu.be/Vybra8zMlE4

    Still Donbas arises as the victorious side after the Debaltsevo battle.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Ukies are so butthurt about Donbass that they want to ban the word:
    https://ria.ru/20200225/1565189138.html
    https://lenta.ru/news/2020/02/25/o_donbasse/
    https://regnum.ru/news/2867591.html
    And it was said not by some certified lunatic asylum patient, but by Ukie secretary of the national security and defense council Alexey Danilov. Funny, to put it extremely mildly.
  171. @Aedib
    Still Donbas arises as the victorious side after the Debaltsevo battle.

    Ukies are so butthurt about Donbass that they want to ban the word:
    https://ria.ru/20200225/1565189138.html
    https://lenta.ru/news/2020/02/25/o_donbasse/
    https://regnum.ru/news/2867591.html
    And it was said not by some certified lunatic asylum patient, but by Ukie secretary of the national security and defense council Alexey Danilov. Funny, to put it extremely mildly.

    • LOL: Aedib
  172. @Hyperborean
    So unemployment (https://www.statista.com/statistics/268830/unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/)

    Greece: 17%
    Spain: 13.8%
    Italy: 9.5%
    Portugal: 6.2%

    GDP (PPP) per capita (2019, International Dollars, wikipedia):
    Greece: 30,522
    Spain: 42,120
    Italy: 40,737
    Portugal: 33,409

    It seems in terms of national identity Greek respondents are a lot more hawkish than I expected considering their election results in recent years (Syriza, followed by a return to New Democracy).

    Italians are more dovish than Greeks (though still high by average Western European standards).

    Portugal and Spain are rather liberal (on average, it varies slightly by the question)

    https://www.pewforum.org/2018/10/29/eastern-and-western-europeans-differ-on-importance-of-religion-views-of-minorities-and-key-social-issues/

    Opinions of non-EU immigration Very/fairly positive (+) Very/fairly negative (-)

    December 2011

    Greece: 23%+ 74% -
    Spain: 48% + 42% -
    Italy: 18% + 75% -
    Portugal: 48% + 42% -

    June 2019

    Greece: 29%+ 68% -
    Spain: 64% + 27% -
    Italy: 37% + 55% -
    Portugal: 56% + 29% -

    https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/Chart/getChart/themeKy/59/groupKy/279

    2018 "When children today grow up, will they be better off financially than their parents?"

    Better off

    Spain: 24%
    Greece: 18%
    Italy: 19%

    Worse off

    Spain: 72%
    Greece: 69%
    Italy: 61%

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/database/indicator/74/

    So while there is some connection between feelings on immigration and economic welfare, it seems like the correlation is stronger inside countries than it is necessarily between countries (once one accounts for Iron Curtain, etc.).

    Compared to Italy and Greece; Spain and Portugal might be a bit modified culturally by their imperial history.

    For example, in Spain they absorb all these millions of Latin Americans, who seem to be like a part of the scenary now. And Spanish media reports in a much more detail about Latin American politics than sometimes about Europe.

    So that Spain’s dual view of itself is not just like a small European country (although EU is also a strong part of their identity), but also as a cultural centre and key representative of the 500 million people Spanish speaking world.

    And I guess Portugal might have some similar (although I know a lot of Brazilians don’t like them) through Brazil. So it’s not just a 10 million people in Portugal, little country which the more powerful countries of Europe are almost unaffected by – but also they have a another identity as part of a 230 million world of people with Portuguese mother tongue.

  173. @A123
    The singing was not predicate (protective). As the facts show it was subsequent (reactive).

    Thus simple Logic 101 unambiguously shows that the anthem had no impact on the outcome.

    Why is happiness about not being subjected to a communicable, potentially lethal disease surprising?

    The anthem would be different, but the scene could have happened just as easily in any rural hospital outside of Sochi, Saint Petersburg, or Vladivostok in relief that Moscow central wasn't dumping plague on them.

    PEACE 😇

    the anthem had no impact on the outcome.

    This attitude and behaviour by those in the West of the Ukraine (Lvov) proves once more that the Ukraine is not one country. I was told that the aircraft circled for hours before being allowed to land. Those on board were sent to isolation close to Poltava – in the Russian-speaking east of the Ukraine.

    It should be no surprise that the Ukraine will eventually split up into its constituent parts. I suspect Poland is likely to regain Lvov. Those in that hospital will have to brush up on their Polish. Lots of their relatives already work across the border in Poland.

  174. @Mr. XYZ

    Incidentally, this does show to what extent the Ukraine has really “unified” as a country after Russian “aggression” and what Ukrainian nationalism is really worth. It’s all fun and games when larping in vyshivankas and kneeling before funeral processions of ATO soldiers, but as soon as they need to put some skin in the game, all of that instantly dissipates.
     
    What exactly do you mean by this, Anatoly?

    PS. he Ukraine handed over the operation of its railways to German state operator Deutsche Bahn for a period of ten years, with PM Alexei Goncharuk having remarked back in October 2019 Ukraine’s railway infrastructure is “practically destroyed… due to total corruption.” As far as I know, all East European countries are capable of running their own railways. Why does Ukrainian governance underperform its national IQ level of ~95 by about 1 S.D.? In fact, I think Ukraine might well be the single greatest argument against HBD.
     
    It's "The Ukraine", not "he Ukraine". Anyway, though, I wonder if there's something in the Ukrainian character that promotes anarchism and thus less effective management in comparison to neighboring countries. Honestly, I doubt it, but the success of Ukrainian anarchist Makhno during the Russian Civil War does make one wonder.

    One would think that with the destruction of pro-Russian forces in Ukraine (they no longer have a realistic chance of acquiring power in Ukraine), Ukraine would be capable of being governed more effectively--and maybe this is true to some extent, with the economic growth in western Ukraine that AP sometimes talks about. Still, one does wonder just how long it will take for Ukraine to fully eliminate its governance problems. Here's wishing them luck on my own part, though!

    with the destruction of pro-Russian forces in Ukraine

    Are you referring to the ethnic cleansing in the east?

    Israel in Ukraine is entirely out of control Uman August 2016 Video, by Scott Humor

    The only other destruction that I am aware of is the destruction of the Ukrainian economy. An industrialised country has been reduced to a service economy. Millions have fled to Russia and other countries. It has become a basket case. Closing the border with Russia and preventing trade between these neighbours has impoverished Ukraine. Imagine Mexico or Canada declining to trade with the USA.

    I think you are sorely misinformed. The population in the east is Russian-speaking. All educated people everywhere speak Russian. That is what they use in their parliament. Closing down pro-Russian media – TV, newspapers, internet – does not change this reality. As soon as the Americans get tired and their politicians stop using Ukraine as a proverbial milk cow, things will go back to normal.

  175. @Mr. Hack
    Bringing in expertise to help bring Ukrainian rail travel up to European standards by hiring a German consulting firm (I notice that they're not employing a Russian one) make a lot of sense, as Ukraine's future is in Europe, not in Russia. Ukraine's railways are a mixed bag, progress is mixed with stagnation. The main Railway Depot in Kyiv is a beautiful complex, and new railways and trains are being regularly added. It's a wise country that can admit that it still can stand to improve and goes to the best in the business and get some help:

    https://youtu.be/67jF3b0DDVo

    Employing German consultants is an expensive business. But all these decisions are political these days. The fantasy of Ukraine joining the European union is manifested by the EU flag flying alongside the Ukrainian flag on many government buildings. Many ordinary Ukrainians have been duped into believing that Ukraine is already in the EU!

    Ukrainian railways have the Russian Gauge. That is never going to change. Obviously, that determines pretty well everything that operates over these rails – engines, carriages, bridges, tunnels etc.

    A visit to any Ukrainian supermarket will confirm that most of the products on sale are either imported from the European Union or are manufactured locally by subsidiaries of EU firms. There was a fire-sale of these assets and the oligarchs grabbed them before selling them to the EU companies at a good price.

    By deciding to sign the agreement with the EU, Ukraine has forfeited its future.

    Auchan is a large chain of French supermarkets. They dominate much of Ukraine. Here is a link to their online offers for cheeses. Hardly anything is Ukrainian.

    Auchan Cheeses (Ukraine)

    EU supermarkets have nothing from Ukraine – a major farming country with far lower wages than in the EU. That is part of the price of the fake admission to the EU.

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    Not taking sides here, but just making the observation that the following argument:

    Ukrainian railways have the Russian Gauge. That is never going to change. Obviously, that determines pretty well everything that operates over these rails – engines, carriages, bridges, tunnels etc.

     

    does not support either side. Indeed, Spain and Portugal have the Iberian gauge, which did not prevent either of them from becoming EU members almost 40 years ago.

    Conversely, the Swiss Confederation (mostly) uses the Standard gauge, and yet has never joined the EU.

    Therefore one shall not deduce anything related to EU memberships (nor prospects thereof) based on rail gauges.
    , @AP

    Many ordinary Ukrainians have been duped into believing that Ukraine is already in the EU!
     
    Can you possibly be that dumb to write this, or assume that readers are that dumb?
  176. @Anatoly Karlin
    Hack was trolling you. Thorfinnsson is not currently commenting much - but you should know where to find him!

    @AK : lost my password due to change of phone…. 🙁

  177. @Alfred
    Employing German consultants is an expensive business. But all these decisions are political these days. The fantasy of Ukraine joining the European union is manifested by the EU flag flying alongside the Ukrainian flag on many government buildings. Many ordinary Ukrainians have been duped into believing that Ukraine is already in the EU!

    Ukrainian railways have the Russian Gauge. That is never going to change. Obviously, that determines pretty well everything that operates over these rails - engines, carriages, bridges, tunnels etc.

    A visit to any Ukrainian supermarket will confirm that most of the products on sale are either imported from the European Union or are manufactured locally by subsidiaries of EU firms. There was a fire-sale of these assets and the oligarchs grabbed them before selling them to the EU companies at a good price.

    By deciding to sign the agreement with the EU, Ukraine has forfeited its future.

    Auchan is a large chain of French supermarkets. They dominate much of Ukraine. Here is a link to their online offers for cheeses. Hardly anything is Ukrainian.

    Auchan Cheeses (Ukraine)

    EU supermarkets have nothing from Ukraine - a major farming country with far lower wages than in the EU. That is part of the price of the fake admission to the EU.

    Not taking sides here, but just making the observation that the following argument:

    Ukrainian railways have the Russian Gauge. That is never going to change. Obviously, that determines pretty well everything that operates over these rails – engines, carriages, bridges, tunnels etc.

    does not support either side. Indeed, Spain and Portugal have the Iberian gauge, which did not prevent either of them from becoming EU members almost 40 years ago.

    Conversely, the Swiss Confederation (mostly) uses the Standard gauge, and yet has never joined the EU.

    Therefore one shall not deduce anything related to EU memberships (nor prospects thereof) based on rail gauges.

  178. @utu
    A picture of Ukrainians can be a very effective Rorschach test on Russians. Russians become less guarded and vigilant. They show their ugly and pitiful usually kept hidden feelings. It can be revealing though ultimately sad.

    They show their ugly and pitiful usually kept hidden feelings

    At the moment, ordinary Russian feel pity for Ukrainians. Russian TV, unlike Ukrainian TV, invites personalities from all political persuasions to debate. This clever tactic has allowed the Russians to understand that the UkroNazis are vermin who cannot be reformed.

    Here is a recent interview where Putin was asked to comment on Ukraine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=18&v=NG6dxqwxGE4

    Putin says Russia, Ukraine torn apart to prevent major rival from emerging (English subtitles)

    His claim is obviously correct. The UK has been working on it for almost 2 centuries.

  179. @AP
    Tracking with Ukraine's economic improvement, Ukrainians' happiness index has shown huge improvement since the last time it was measured, in 2017, from 8% to 33% considering themselves to be happy.. Ukrainians are now happier than Russians (24%) and tied with Brits:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=913&page=1

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/materials/pr/220201102_happy/2ukr.jpg

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/materials/pr/220201102_happy/3ukr.jpg

    Happiest people in Eastern Europe are Poles (51%). If you include the Balkans - Romanians (63%).

    Ukrainians’ happiness index has shown huge improvement

    Sure Ukrainians became much happier when Poroshenko lost the election. They had great hopes of Zelensky stopping the civil war and its associated ethnic-cleansing. They wanted to recommence trade with Russia. A constructive and mutually-beneficial relationship like before.

    Sadly, Zelensky merely continued the same failed policies of Poroshenko. In fact, he tried rewriting the Minsk 2 agreement that was signed by Poroshenko. The government made changes on its website. When the Russians pointed out this farce, they quickly reinstated the original.

    the Ukrainians insist that those in the east must disarm and that the Ukrainian army should seal off the border with Russia – so that the ethnic slaughter might recommence. Obviously, the people in the east will have none of that.

    The fiction that Ukraine will join the EU (like Turkey) is steadfastly maintained in the media.

    Ukrainians are gradually realising that they have been duped once more by (((you know who))). Almost all the government is composed of members of that tribe.

  180. @Mr. Hack
    Calling a commenter what he is (in this case a college professor) isn't an "ad hominem attack." If you're referring to my calling him"janissar", well, in my opinion anybody that continuously mocks and denigrates his own (in this case Ukrainian) people, is just that - he seems to be exclusively working for a country that has historically served to try and destroy the language and culture of the Ukrainian people. I would never call you a janissary (I might call you a Ukrainaphope), for as far a I know, you're Slovak and not Ukrainian. I'm just trying to be accurate. :-)

    As far as arguments go, I think that mine, in this case. is quite strong. Although I'm not at all suggesting that our professor should not be allowed to hold any opinions that he feels dear to his heart, I am cautioning other readers to not buy it. He's trying to dismiss the opinions of two heavyweight political strategists that even happen to be on opposite ends of the political spectrum whose opinions just happen to coincide: With Ukraine, Russia becomes a superpower, without Ukraine, Russia remains only a regional player. I'll side with the two heavyweights here, and leave the professor to his biological experiments.

    working for a country that has historically served to try and destroy the language and culture of the Ukrainian people

    Are you accusing him of working for the Germans? the Americans?

    FYI, in Crimea, they teach Ukrainian at school to those who wish to learn it. OTOH, the Zionists and Nazis who have taken over the country have banned Russian TV, local pro-Russian TV, newspapers and many website such as VK.com, Sputnik.com, ok.ru etc.

    Schools in Russia’s Sevastopol begin teaching Ukrainian language

    I hardly need remind you that most of Ukraine’s soldiers in Crimea opted to join the Russian army when Crimea was reunited with Russia. 🙂

    The reality is that Ukraine has much to gain by cooperating with Russia. The Russians don’t need Ukraine other than as a buffer against the ambitions of NATO.

  181. @china-russia-all-the-way
    Nothing of particular substance but I've noticed investments / participation by Chinese companies in developing wind farms in Ukraine.

    SyvashEnergoProm achieved financial closure for the windfarm’s first phase worth €155m ($175m) in January 2019.

    POWERCHINA and its subsidiary Powerchina Fujian Electric Power Engineering was awarded the engineering, procurement and construction (EPC) contract by NBT to build the windfarm in September 2018.
     
    https://www.power-technology.com/projects/syvash-onshore-wind-farm/

    China State Grid and Norwegian developer NBT said they’ll build a 750MW wind farm in Ukraine at a cost of €1bn ($1.1bn), in what the former hailed as a landmark of energy cooperation between China and Norway.

    China Power Technology Equipment, unit of State Grid, and NBT said the Zofia project in the Zaporozhye region of Ukraine will be fully developed by the end of 2021 as one of China’s ‘Belt and Road’projects.
     
    https://www.rechargenews.com/wind/china-and-norway-link-to-build-1bn-wind-farm-in-ukraine/2-1-693192

    Representatives of the Chinese company confirmed their interest in taking part in several renewable energy projects in Ukraine. The announced 500 MW wind farm in the Mykolaiv Oblast would be only a pilot project.
     
    https://eurasianetwork.eu/2017/07/25/chinese-investors-will-build-the-largest-wind-farm-in-ukraine/

    Nothing of particular substance but I’ve noticed investments / participation by Chinese companies in developing wind farms in Ukraine.

    Kiev airport is full of publicity about wind farms. A more useless way of producing electricity, it is hard to imagine. These wind farms are rated at 500 and 750MW. But that only happens when the wind is not too slow and not too fast. It is useless for most purposes as an equal backup using fossil/nuclear fuels is required to be available at all time.

    Because electricity consumption in Ukraine is 30% below what it was in 1990, and even though Chernobyl is no more, there is no shortage of electric generation capacity.

    Even the Germans admit that fake renewable energy is a failure. Without electricity from France (nuclear), Poland (coal) and Switzerland (hydro), Norway(hydro), the German grid would collapse. When the wind is just right, and it is in the middle of the night, Germany generates too much electricity and it has to exported (for free) to Norway so that they can pump water back uphill. It is an absolute nightmare to manage.

  182. @Alfred
    Employing German consultants is an expensive business. But all these decisions are political these days. The fantasy of Ukraine joining the European union is manifested by the EU flag flying alongside the Ukrainian flag on many government buildings. Many ordinary Ukrainians have been duped into believing that Ukraine is already in the EU!

    Ukrainian railways have the Russian Gauge. That is never going to change. Obviously, that determines pretty well everything that operates over these rails - engines, carriages, bridges, tunnels etc.

    A visit to any Ukrainian supermarket will confirm that most of the products on sale are either imported from the European Union or are manufactured locally by subsidiaries of EU firms. There was a fire-sale of these assets and the oligarchs grabbed them before selling them to the EU companies at a good price.

    By deciding to sign the agreement with the EU, Ukraine has forfeited its future.

    Auchan is a large chain of French supermarkets. They dominate much of Ukraine. Here is a link to their online offers for cheeses. Hardly anything is Ukrainian.

    Auchan Cheeses (Ukraine)

    EU supermarkets have nothing from Ukraine - a major farming country with far lower wages than in the EU. That is part of the price of the fake admission to the EU.

    Many ordinary Ukrainians have been duped into believing that Ukraine is already in the EU!

    Can you possibly be that dumb to write this, or assume that readers are that dumb?

    • Replies: @Alfred
    Can you possibly be that dumb to write this

    It is the truth. The fact that you don't like it suggests that liking the truth is not your strongest point. :)

    People who revert to ad hominem attacks are generally losers.
  183. @AP

    Many ordinary Ukrainians have been duped into believing that Ukraine is already in the EU!
     
    Can you possibly be that dumb to write this, or assume that readers are that dumb?

    Can you possibly be that dumb to write this

    It is the truth. The fact that you don’t like it suggests that liking the truth is not your strongest point. 🙂

    People who revert to ad hominem attacks are generally losers.

    • Replies: @AP
    Prove the dumb claim that Ukrainians think Ukraine is part of the EU. You mostly write nonsense but this was extra-nonsensical.
  184. @Alfred
    Can you possibly be that dumb to write this

    It is the truth. The fact that you don't like it suggests that liking the truth is not your strongest point. :)

    People who revert to ad hominem attacks are generally losers.

    Prove the dumb claim that Ukrainians think Ukraine is part of the EU. You mostly write nonsense but this was extra-nonsensical.

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