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Of being breeding stock to foreigners. Except now they’re doing it of their own volition.

46 babies stuck in a Kiev hotel because the foreigners can’t collect thanks to Corona-chan and something like 500 in the country as a whole. So it seems to be a substantial “industry”.

Since they’re apparently happy to abase themselves so regardless, perhaps it can be productively exploited.

Maybe Russia could order and buy up all these ukrobabies (volume discounts?) in lieu of iron wombs to solve the demographics problem. Once they come of age, they can be offered arms, munitions, and the opportunity to liberate Ukraine and string up the subhumans who sold them.

There is really something extremely sordid about renting out your women’s wombs for foreign currency. I don’t have a particularly high disgust or moral sensitivity, e.g. I’m indifferent to things like e-thots, Only Fans, etc. that elements of the Alt Right are obsessed with. But this phenomenon, which was also prevalent in 1990s Russia, triggers it hard.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. Founder of the / bio tex clinic/ albert totchilovsky

    >Totchilovsky Genealogy
    The vast majority of Argentine Jews are descended from immigrants who arrived from Europe. These ashkenazic Jews migrated from small towns or shtetels of Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Germany, Romania or Ukraine, leaving behind most of their Jewish relatives. After two or three generations, those Jewish families lost track of their relatives, having been saved from the war, emigrated to other countries like USA, England or Australia.

    WE MUST EXTERMINATE THEM EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM

    NO MERCY

    • Troll: Mr. XYZ
    • Replies: @paranoid goy
    , @Dumbo
  3. I’m guessing that you need a white surrogate mother for a white baby (since the head is too big for other races of women, same reason that black women having half white/black children are especially at risk of complications). So it’s natural that the Ukraine, as the white country with by far the poorest and most desperate population, is the centre of this industry.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Daniel Chieh
  4. The Tartars were infamous for raiding and carrying off the beautiful young Slav women and selling them into the harems of the Turks.

    • Replies: @Alfred
  5. “There is really something extremely sordid about renting out your women’s wombs for foreign currency.”

    When the Russian began to hate.

  6. melanf says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    since the head is too big for other races of women

    As far as I know, the largest cranium has a Mongoloid race (namely the Mongols and Kazakhs)

  7. @German anon

    German anon, thank you for reminding me why I don’t have comments on my site…..

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
  8. @melanf

    I was also surprised reading about this; I know that NEA have the largest heads, however Asian women also have smaller pelvises than White women, which is why WM/AF babies are much more likely to need Caesarians than vice-versa. Maybe they come out smaller but then grow bigger?

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    , @JohnPlywood
  9. WHAT says:

    AP will proclaim this yet another peremoga, any minute now. 😀

  10. I wonder how the try to avoid FASD for those babies. Even when its their own child many women can´t resist, the motivation to do so when it is not own baby has to be much lower.

  11. Beckow says:

    …subhumans who sold them

    Careful. It is the uber-humans and comprador class in Kiev who sold them, most Ukrainians just try to survive. This is a tip of the iceberg, an ugly one, but the dysfunctions among desperate Ukrainians are very deep. I am sure they are selling a few organs here and there. A pure human material that offered itself on Maidan to their ‘betters’. And followed-up with offering their earth.

    I can’t wait for AP-Mr.Hack brigade to tell us about the Lviv cafes full of brilliant engineers answering phones all day for their Western masters. That’s ‘Europe’, they are fully Europeanised, and as in the past they know their place. And so do their masters.

    • LOL: WHAT, Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    , @AP
  12. 216 says:

    I don’t have a particularly high disgust or moral sensitivity, e.g. I’m indifferent to things like e-thots, Only Fans, etc. that elements of the Alt Right are obsessed with.

    It’s a generational thing. I don’t have the intuitive market knowledge beyond North America, but the rise of the “Tinder System” has resulted in a devaluation of large numbers of ordinary men here.

    And part of the rage is realizing that many of us are addicts in recovery.

  13. @Beckow

    Extremely on topic: http://haritonov.kulichki.net/stories/llife.htm

    A short story by the late Mr. Krylov, the subject of an obituary in a previous post.

    It’s his most famous work and talks of Ukrainians selling their bodies for ‘Europeanisation’.

  14. Mr. Hack says:

    This is actually one of the stupidest posts that you’ve come up with in a long time, Mr. Karlin. If you were trying to elicit some kind of sympathy and score some political points here, I think that you’ve failed miserably. The problem of infertile couples wanting to adopt children is something that is dealt with similarly around the world. The video shows quite a clean and loving environment and hopefully this damn pandemic will soon abate so that these babies can be united with their new families. Only an insensitive “nationalist” would parry this situation as an opportunity for Russia to create even more
    jannisaries to help fulfill Russia’s role as the “third (and last) Rome.”

    • Disagree: YetAnotherAnon
  15. AP says:

    Offering wombs for infertile couples who otherwise wouldn’t have children is neither sordid nor evil and is better than offering bodies for sex as is common among Donbas women.

    As of 2014 Russia was still a major source of surrogacy, Although America itself is #1.:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-28679020

    Experts say that countries popular with parents for surrogacy arrangements are the US, India, Thailand, Ukraine and Russia.

    Mexico, Nepal, Poland and Georgia are also among the countries described as possibilities for surrogacy arrangements.

  16. AP says:
    @Beckow

    A pure human material that offered itself on Maidan to their ‘betters’. And followed-up with offering their earth.

    Land reform means Ukraine, like almost every other country, allows its citizens to sell land. It’s the end of Sovok-era restrictions based on collective farms. Land still can’t be sold to foreigners.

    answering phones all day for their Western masters

    The Slovak goatherd doesn’t know the difference between programming and R & D, and answering calls.

    But you had to meet your quota for lying in every post. In this case, one lie per paragraph.

  17. Epigon says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Homos, deviants, degenerate women who want to offload pregnancy on others are far more frequent than sterile couples, in this business.
    The fact you try to spin your supposed compatriots sale of bodies to affluent degenerates in the West demonstrates your true opinions and allegiance.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  18. Epigon says:
    @AP

    Are you really trying to push the narrative that the clients are overwhelmingly couples who have functional sperm and eggs, but are unable to carry the pregnancy?
    Are you for real?

    • Replies: @AP
  19. Svevlad says:

    Was there a “stolen babies” thing there too?

    There was here and it’s a hidden controversy that I guess isn’t being pushed because we’re short on medical professionals, but this shit has been going on for a long time (before Tito died).

    Basically baby is born perfectly healthy, declared dead, and sold. The doctors were also corrupt as fuck and for example wouldn’t do C-sections unless you bribe ’em (happened to my mom)

    I’d have ’em publicly executed for this but that would require a North Korea style isolation combined with a human resources Ahnenerbe to track down medical professional emigrants and bring em back

  20. AP says:
    @Epigon

    Tbh I haven’t researched this. The only couple I know who used a surrogate was one in which the wife could not carry a pregnancy and I assumed this was typical.

    Edit: According to this, normal families are fairly typical:

    https://information-on-surrogacy.com/surrogate-parents

  21. @AP

    As of 2014 Russia was still a major source of surrogacy, Although America itself is #1.

    Yes, it’s disgusting – though I am surprised about the US being #1 (this makes it all the more degenerate, given US wealth). Any self-respecting state would have the people who organize these services shot.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AltSerrice
    , @JSQ
    , @Peter Frost
  22. I wonder if the inverse of Hack’s Law is equally true ?

    “As a comment thread about Ukraine in Karlin’s blog grows longer, the probability of the discussion deviating to another topic approaches zero”.

  23. Dmitry says:

    Interesting story to discuss, but what is the idea for “sordid about renting out your women’s wombs” about surrogacy.

    I assume you don’t have some kind of “promoted content” about Ukraine, so what are your reasons to dislike surrogacy? I imagine it would be your favourite industry, considering your other beliefs about promoting our birthrate. You think there needs to increase birthrates and that white race are intelligent than the brown ones on average, and there need to be need artificial wombs, etc.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  24. @Dmitry

    If you don’t find the concept of renting out your women’s wombs to foreigners innately disgusting, then I can’t help you, sorry.

    Though it’s strange that one would then have any complaints about Turkish or Arab sex tourists…

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  25. Dmitry says:
    @Epigon

    women who want to offload pregnancy

    This is why they do surrogacy some actresses like Elizabeth Banks, that don’t want to damage their bodies.

    But probably mass popularization of surrogacy would be the best way to raise fertility rates for such wealthy women.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  26. @Dmitry

    People should be making their own kids rather than using their body for others

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  27. @Kent Nationalist

    Eh, there’s always the Cesarean Section.

  28. Dmitry says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Sex tourists and prostitution, does not have much relation to fertility treatments and surrogacy.

    For example, do you think when a family adopt a child, they are having some kind of relationship with the woman who gives birth to this child?

    Obviously, there can be problems to be sure the family that adopts the children, will be a kind and sympathetic family for the children. With a third world country like Ukraine, they are unlikely to interview the candidates to make sure they will be good parents. Although generally in developed countries, the rates of child abuse are lower. And kind of parents in this case, will be older and more middle class ones.

    Children from surrogacy seemed to view the arrangement positively.
    https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/29/1/90/630815

  29. Mr. Hack says:

    BTW, I see that surrogacy services are available in Russia too, and:

    Local surrogate programs are accessible for foreigners.

    https://www.growingfamilies.org/surrogacy-in-russia/

    There’s absolutely no need to look to Ukraine to find ideas for your strange and fantastical posts. Also, I find it incredible for somebody who puts himself forward as a transhumanist to hold such archaic ideas about surrogacy? Surrogacy = sex trade with foreigners? Really? You can do better that this Anatoly.

  30. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It’s not a surprise that America is number one. America is still more of a pro-natalist country. For example Americans promote adoption of unwanted children while ex-Soviet countries preferred abortion. Better to kill the unborn rather than “abandon” one’s child. Note that countries banning surrogacy are sterile Western Euro ones that import non-Europeans.

    Providing nice affluent (thus high-functioning, with good intellectual genes) couples with biological children they otherwise would not have is not the same renting oneself out for others’ sexual pleasure.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  31. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    I was just about to click “Agree” for your comment above, but saved myself when seeing you wrote the typical nonsense claims about Donbass (almost the most productive and successful region of Ukraine before 2014).

    Of course, surrogacy can be – assuming strong regulation which is unlikely in current Ukraine – a sympathetic and beneficial arrangement, where women who enjoy to be constantly pregnant, are helping families that will not have children if surrogacy did not exist.

    In Western Europe and America, there are few orphanages, and opportunities for local adoption of children. In Russia and Ukraine, there are orphanages with abandoned children, but a large part of the children have fetal alcohol syndrome, and most families sadly do not want to adopt such children (which are often from mentally ill and alcoholic mothers).

    Also considering this forum’s usual interest in inherited characteristics (when not fallen into Ukraine derangement syndrome), then surrogacy and fertility treatment is the best way to help the kind of middle class woman at the opening scene of the film “Idiocracy”. The children will be from the middle class people’s genetics, and less likely to have alcoholic/mentally ill mother than if they are adopted from the orphanage.

    • Replies: @AP
  32. Dmitry says:
    @Belarusian Dude

    If there is evidence that having a small number of women working as surrogate mothers (usually the women that enjoy being pregnant and already have their own children) – has an effect to reduce birthrates of native children in the country, or even for the women themselves, ceteris paribus.

    But it’s more likely not. Surrogacy will be an easier job, in places where being constantly pregnant is socially accepted. In countries where women are more rarely pregnant, then the culture will be more difficult one to work as a surrogate mother. Probably it would be easier to work as a constantly pregnant surrogate mother in a country like Israel or Sweden, where pregnant women are culturally idealized, than in somewhere like South Korea or Singapore, where women are most rarely pregnant.

    The problem in Ukraine with this surrogacy will likely just be a lack of regulation, as in many areas of life in third world countries. Although – without reading about it first – there is a possibility (like with coronavirus) Ukraine might have a strict regulation in the area.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  33. This somehow reminds me of the great Russian film Ярик, which starts out as a traditional New Year’s melodrama and ends with the motherless (and very cute) little boy being sold to an Austrian clinic and killed for body parts. I see it’s on YouTube with English subs:

    Anyway, I’m happy that this nasty business is banned in Sweden. Russia and Ukraine should go the same way.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  34. Dmitry says:
    @Swedish Family

    B-films aside –

    What is the reasoning in the Swedish public, for why the country is against surrogacy and criminalize it? Outside Sweden, it is also illegal in much of the most advanced Western European countries – Finland, France, Germany, Iceland et al.

    Currently, surrogacy is accepted in Russia, and there is not any public debate or controversy on this topic (for now). Both Ukraine and Russia is apparently one of the most common destinations for “surrogacy tourism” from the West. The argument against this, and it seems quite a possible negative aspect, is that due to low incomes, some women could be economically coerced into surrogacy, rather than doing it because of vocational reasons.

    On the other hand, in a wealthy country like Sweden there would not be such an issue of economic coercion, as women would only become surrogates for vocational reasons (i.e. because they enjoy being pregnant constantly, which is not a common desire in the total population – but one that some women have, and which surrogate mothers report).

    If the women are vocationally oriented to be surrogate mothers, what is the reason that countries like Sweden will ban them.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  35. IMO this just shows how Ukrainian “statehood” is an abomination, whose sole idea is selling out to the West: selling out our land, Orthodox religion, our common cultural heritage, even our women.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  36. Dmitry says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Even if this was an argument against surrogacy (which I do not see, beyond the fact Ukraine is poor and suffers the normal economic exploitation of third world countries in the relation to the West with such services), then Russia is one of the world’s most common destination for surrogacy tourism from the West.

    Surrogacy (and surrogacy tourism) even looks more regulated in Ukraine, than in Russia. In Ukraine, surrogate mothers need to have their own children before they are allowed to work, and they ban single parents (as well as same-sex couple, etc) from the service – while in Russia, I could not find this in a quick search of regulation in this area.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  37. @Dmitry

    …usually the women that enjoy being pregnant and already have their own children.

    Holy cow, you’re either absolutely insane or 14 years old.

    In either case, you’re not allowed to post here.

    • Agree: Felix Keverich
  38. @Dmitry

    Could be because such activities are illegal in Russia, while in the Ukraine they built a “national industry” out of it.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  39. Dumbo says:

    Despite its ethical dilemmas, surrogacy can be useful for sterile couples.

    But for those who are not in that case, what are the chances of finding a pretty Ukrainian lady who wants to come to the West, marry and have babies? Would that cost more or less than surrogacy?

  40. Dumbo says:
    @German anon

    “WE MUST EXTERMINATE THEM EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM”

    LOL. “German anon”, you should come discuss at the other thread at Linh Dihn’s blog, there’s some people there saying that no German ever wished for any extermination of Jews, and that in fact they actually treated them always very well, even during the war.

  41. Dmitry says:
    @Felix Keverich

    activities are illegal in Russia,

    Can you not read? Surrogacy and surrogacy tourism is legal in Russia, and surrogacy tourism from the West has more regulations in Ukraine than in Russia.

    In Russia, (while this particular thing is illegal in Ukraine), single parents are coming for surrogacy, and the agencies are advertising abroad about this to Western customers.

    In Russia like Ukraine, – obviously the motive (especially when the clinics are trafficking in Central Asian workers to do the job) is usually for money.

    View this post on Instagram

    Родители, которые не могут естественным путем зачать и выносить ребенка, мечтают, чтобы у них этот ребенок был. И медицина дала им такую возможность. Ну, а суррогатные мамочки решают какие-то свои, материальные проблемы. Все получают то, что им нужно» #суррогатнаямать #суррогатнаямама #суррогатная_мать #суррогатная_мама #суррогатноематеринство #суррогатное_материнство #суррогатноематеринствомосква #суррогатная_мамочка_с_опытом #суррогатное_материнство_тюмень #суррогатноематеринствоновосибирск #суррогатноематеринствовкраснодаре #суррогатноематеринствоевропа #суррагатноематеринствововсеммире #суррогатноематеринствокитай #суррогатноематеринствоукраина #суррогатнаямамановосибирск #донорыооцитов #работа #казахстан #россия #кыргыстан #санктпетербург #мечтысбываются #суррогатноематеринство_питер #санктпетербург #деньги #хочумиллион

    A post shared by Svetlana (@surmamochki_donori_oocitov) on

    you’re either absolutely insane or 14 years old.

    In either case, you’re not allowed to post

    A proportion of surrogate mothers are not even paid, and that is the only kind that is allowed in most Western countries. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6537344/

  42. @Dmitry

    B-films aside

    Visually, yes, but also one of the top 250 films on Kinopoisk, which tells you more about what filmgoers actually like.

    I’m sorry if I ruined the film by giving away its ending. Part of its magic is that it feels like a pleasant Home Alone 2 kind of film until those devastating last minutes. This is very Russian, by the way. In Soviet times, genre cinema was seen as inartistic and bourgeois, and that legacy still lives on — sometimes for good (Займемся любовью — won’t spoil the ending again, but this is a great and very true teen flick) and sometimes for bad (Солнечный удар and many others).

    What is the reasoning in the Swedish public, for why the country is against surrogacy and criminalize it? Outside Sweden, it is also illegal in much of the most advanced Western European countries – Finland, France, Germany, Iceland et al.

    English Wikipedia curiously leaves out much of the criticism of surrogacy. Swedish Wikipedia has this to say:

    A 2011 resolution of the European Parliament says that surrogacy is a serious problem that abuses women’s bodies and reproductive organs

    A UN special rapporteur on child trafficking and sexual abuse toward children presented a report on surrogacy in January 2018. The report says that violations of surrogate mothers and children are well documented. Violations are especially common in commercial surrogacy.

    “Surrogacy, in particular commercial surrogacy, often involves abusive practices. Furthermore, it involves direct challenges to the legitimacy of human rights norms, as some of the existing legal regimes for surrogacy purport to legalize practices that violate the international prohibition on sale of children, as well as other human rights norms. Moreover, many of the arguments provided in support of these legal regimes for commercial surrogacy could, if accepted, legitimate practices in other fields, such as adoption, that are considered illicit. Thus, if this type of governing legal regime becomes accepted, whether as international or national law, or through recognition principles, it would undermine established human rights norms and standards.”

    Surrogacy is banned in Sweden. The public inquiry “Different Paths to Parenthood” finds that neither altruistic nor commercial surrogacy should be legal in Sweden. Arguments against surrogacy include that it isn’t in line with policies of other EU states, that it sits ill with existing bans on trade in women and children, and policies along that line. Arguments against altruistic surrogacy center on the great lack of knowledge of how these children are faring and the risks of implicit pressure leading to stealth commercialization and lack of free will.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @AP
  43. Dmitry says:
    @Swedish Family

    hidden commercialization and lack of free will.

    Surrogacy tourism grows in Russia, Ukraine, et al, because of a ban on it (even the non-commercial, altruistic surrogate mothers), in Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Germany, France, et al.

    So Sweden has offshored the service to other countries. I’m not sure it’s such a virtuous proposal, even if you oppose surrogacy (which I wouldn’t).

    Sensible ethical policy would be to legalize surrogate mothers, but with a strong regulation framework (which includes investigation of families who will use service to assure they would be adequate parents).

    In Russia currently there is likely too little regulation (with even clinics boasting about trafficking women from Central Asia to do this work), while about Ukraine – who knows if we can believe them? Ukraine has a low state capacity usually and third world behaviour in many areas – on the other hand, they claim to have strong regulations about this.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @216
  44. Exile says:

    Agree 100% AK. A “nation” selling its progeny in bulk is hardly worth the title.

    Neoliberal narcissism and libertine liberty are the most anti-natal forces yet developed.

    Ex-Warsaw Pact nations should keep this in mind as muh West seeks to embrace them and their own children.

    On the plus side, at least these kids were not simply aborted as they would be in America and Western Europe (if only because they are worth more to their debased biological contributors alive).

    • Replies: @AP
  45. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    I was just about to click “Agree” for your comment above, but saved myself when seeing you wrote the typical nonsense claims about Donbass (almost the most productive and successful region of Ukraine before 2014).

    I did not mention Donbas in the post you replied to, but my descriptions of that unfortunate region are more realistic than are your references to Ukraine as a “third world country.”

    Donbas was blessed with natural coal deposits and as a result had a large steel making industry, making it a major source for export dollars; as a result, although it had 10% of Ukraine’s population it produced 20% of the country’s GDP and had the highest salaries outside Kiev. However it was otherwise an ugly cesspool of crime and all sorts of social ills (HIV, abortion, low fertility rate and high out of wedlock birth percentage, prostitution, drugs, etc.). You posted a nice article about Donbas once – but the article IIRC was written by some Donbas business group.

    In Russia and Ukraine, there are orphanages with abandoned children, but a large part of the children have fetal alcohol syndrome, and most families sadly do not want to adopt such children (which are often from mentally ill and alcoholic mothers)

    In Russia and Ukraine there is a strong social stigma about giving a child up for adoption but less stigma for aborting a child; in America it is vice versa. I would be very hesitant about adopting a child in Russia or Ukraine.

  46. AP says:
    @Exile

    Do you know what surrogacy is?

    • Replies: @Exile
  47. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    English Wikipedia curiously leaves out much of the criticism of surrogacy. Swedish Wikipedia has this to say:

    A 2011 resolution of the European Parliament says that surrogacy is a serious problem that abuses women’s bodies and reproductive organs

    In the progressive West women have the freedom to rent their sexual organs to debauched men for purposes of sexual pleasure, and they have the right kill unborn undeveloped children within their bodies. But renting out their wombs to infertile couples wishing to have families is considered to be “abuse” and is banned in progressive western countries.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Mr. XYZ
    , @Denis
  48. @Anatoly Karlin

    I don’t think there’s anything inherently disgusting or evil about surrogacy. Certainly the way it’s being run in Ukraine is pretty vile and appears to be exploitative, but in general I don’t see the problem. My main concern would be around severing the bond between the woman who carried the child and the child itself, that deserves more thought.

    However, it’s a simple fact that some women’s wombs cannot support pregnancy, for a variety of reasons. A rather common and poorly understood one afaik is endometriosis. Yes, there’s IVF, there’s donor eggs, etc. But in some cases surrogacy is the only option.

    Should those couples who find themselves unable to reproduce naturally for reasons beyond their control be unable to have a child of their own blood? In my view, denying them that is the true evil.

    • Replies: @utu
  49. Moral outrage should be tempered by commiseration. Renting out wombs to produce other people’s babies is a sure sign of desperation. That’s exactly why it was prevalent in Russia in 1990s and no longer is. Ukraine did not emerge from 1990s, it’s living in a “1990s forever” nightmare.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Ms Karlin-Gerard
    , @AP
  50. @Kent Nationalist

    No, East Asian women have wider pelvic inlets than White women. You are quoting from some abatract from a shitty source that cited nothing to support that idea. Asian women in general have more c-sections than other races, out of choice. In China ~90% of births are by c-section.

  51. @melanf

    Mongols and Kazakhs don’t have the largest craniums; that’s a load of shit. Japanese have way larger cranial capacities than them.

  52. JSQ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It doesn’t surprise me that America would be “#1” in surrogacy by some measure. Probably we are #1 in total number of surrogate births, not number of women serving as surrogates for foreign couples as my guess is that ours is mostly a “local” industry. From what I can tell opposition to surrogacy comes from 3 main sources:

    1) The Catholic Church, which is a marginal political force in the US
    2) Hardline feminist activists, who contra the stereotype don’t have any significant power in the US as feminist activism in the US is completely beholden to the larger goals of the Democratic party and the cultural left in general (the association between surrogacy and gay couples alone would be enough to destroy any anti-surrogacy feminist activism in the US as feminism is subordinate to pro-gay activism here)
    3) Anti-colonialist and nationalist political movements, which don’t exist here

    As far as commercial surrogacy, it’s more than a little grotesque but I can’t summon up any great outrage. Would you be more comfortable if it was limited exclusively to citizens? As Dmitry said, responsible but lower-IQ women serving as incubators for the genetic material of higher-IQ women seems like exactly the kind of thing you would support.

  53. @Kent Nationalist

    No. East Asian infants have larger heads at birth than white infants:

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.489.6530%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf

    East Asian and Native American women have the largest, roundest, and obstetrically-efficient pelvic canals:

    https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2018.1807

    (Sorry for double post, forgot to add links).

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
  54. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    is a sure sign of desperation. That’s exactly why it was prevalent in Russia in 1990s

    How does this argument make sense, when surrogacy tourism is common to Russia now in 2020, and surrogacy tourism customers are now coming to Russia from China?

    It is a result of the regulatory framework. In Russia, there is one of the most liberal legal regimes in relation to surrogacy and fertility treatment in the world, so it has in recent decades been a centre of surrogacy tourism.

    This is because in Russian law, you can record the name of the people who donate gametes as legal parents, instead of the birth mother. http://www.consultant.ru/document/cons_doc_LAW_8982/062dc2e007c56e8d7bef623d85e867a4b0e99a1d/

    In recent, Ukraine there has been an intentional attempt to aggressively attain market share from Russia, after they legalized it in 2015.

    This market exists, because Western European like Sweden, have banned surrogacy (including non-commercial altruistic surrogacy).

    In addition, there is now booming surrogacy tourism from China to Russia. Again, due to having one of the world’s most liberal framework in Russia in this issue.

    However, Chinese are sometimes getting scammed in Russia.
    https://www.kp.ru/daily/27069/4138796/

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  55. @AnonFromTN

    It was prevalent in Russia in the 1990s and no longer is. Ukraine did not emerge from the 1990’s,it’s living in a “1990s forever” nightmare

    No joke….. literally I was going to type EXACTLY the same comment about 404 – except maybe I was going to say “1997 every year”, just for extra flourish.

    Sadly it is now cementing a status as a unique sewer for exploiting and testing all evils be it in human trafficking,selling organs, anything requiring a loss of dignity. Shocking data came out last year about US biolabs in Gruzia killing hundreds of people,they have alot more of these facilities in ukraine (3 in Lvov, LOL) so I would expect, eventually, the truth of something even more shocking coming from Ukraine. Its now making Albania or Kosovo a thriving hub of European civilisation by comparison

  56. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    West women have the freedom to rent their sexual

    Western countries are not homogeneous in their attitude to prostitution, and have more diversity in this than certain other blocs.

    In Western countries like Sweden, (most of) USA, UK and France, etc, prostitution is criminalized and seems quite a marginalized phenomenon.

    On the other hand, in countries like Spain, Germany and Netherlands, prostitution is legal and part of mainstream culture, and dominating sectors of the cities.

    In Russia and Ukraine, prostitution is legal “grayzone” – where it is less open than in Spain or Netherlands due to nominal illegality, but in reality, it is a many billion dollar industry, and occasionally can seem quite brazen (for example, huge posters advertising “erotic massage parlour” i.e. – brothels) were in the centre in Ekaterinburg (a large city in Russia) some summer ago, and the authorities seemed to not react. Perhaps the authorities might have soon removed the advertising, but their legal situation is clearly liberal enough that the owners of such enterprises do not fear advertising like that.

    In Japan, China, India, etc – prostitution is probably quite open and mainstream from what I can read. While in the Middle Eastern and North Africa, it is criminalized.

    • Replies: @216
    , @Europe Europa
  57. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    It appears that Karlin also wasn’t aware that surrogacy services were viable and currently offered in Russia. He states above:

    Any self-respecting state would have the people who organize these services shot.

    I hope that he hasn’t switched from swords to firearms? 🙂

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  58. Ano4 says:

    I am surprised that as a transhumanist Anatoly would care about surrogacy at all.

    I mean transhumanists believe that cloning humans is okay.

    So why is surrogacy worse?

    I am sincerely puzzled…

    Maybe Mr. Karlin could explain to us why he finds surrogacy so shocking…

    • Replies: @utu
  59. utu says:
    @AltSerrice

    “Should those couples who find themselves unable to reproduce naturally for reasons beyond their control be unable to have a child of their own blood? “YES

    • Disagree: AltSerrice
  60. utu says:
    @Ano4

    Mr. Karlin is becoming human. This is a very good news.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  61. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Land still can’t be sold to foreigners.

    Do you approve of this?

    Also, what are your thoughts on Ukraine being incapable of actually holding a census in 20 years? I recently read that they’re not going to be able to do it in 2021 either:

    https://112.international/politics/no-population-census-in-ukraine-in-2021-official-50699.html

    Kind of sad, if you ask me! 🙁

    BTW, care to make a guess as to just how many Jews Ukraine will have at the time of its next census, as well as the year of this next census?

  62. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    If a woman in poverty needs the money from womb rental, why not allow her to do it? Sure, it’s coercive in a sense due to her being desperate, but nevertheless, the government isn’t going to be giving her that kind of money for free, so what else is left for her? Ditto for prostitution.

  63. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Ukraine did not emerge from 1990s, it’s living in a “1990s forever” nightmare.

    The only one who has not emerged from the 1990s when it comes to Ukraine is you.

    But this is a myth Sovoks console themselves with.

    Per capita GDP in constant 2010 dollars:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?locations=UA

    1998 $1,686 (low point)

    2018 $3,110

    GDP PPP per capita, constant 2011 dollars:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.KD?locations=UA

    $4,451 1998 (low point)

    $8,666 2020 (a little better than 1992)

    I guess you can say it is still lower than 1991, before it collapsed completely. But it is not the “90s.”

    As a comparison, Russia did not exceed 1991 until 2006. So relative to the post-Soviet collapse Ukraine now is about where Russia was in 2004 or 2005. It is 15 years behind Russia, thanks to having been ruled by southern and eastern Ukrainians.

  64. LOL. As others said, the sound of transhumanist, who was for his whole life boosting genetic engineering, cloning and artificial wombs, parroting religious talking points about “sanctity of life” is so funny.

    Especially when the same person, in the same post, advocates for war.

    Maybe Russia could order and buy up all these ukrobabies (volume discounts?) in lieu of iron wombs to solve the demographics problem. Once they come of age, they can be offered arms, munitions, and the opportunity to liberate Ukraine and string up the subhumans who sold them.

    Let say that the child says:
    I do not want any arms, I do not want any munitions. I will not go to any war, because war is dangerous for human life. I prefer to stay in my room and play video games.

    What will you do? Will your respect his bodily integrity and sanctity of life?

    • Replies: @Anonymous (n)
  65. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    It is 15 years behind Russia, thanks to having been ruled by southern and eastern Ukrainians.

    Do you believe that Rukh or someone like them would have made better post-1991 managers and stewards of Ukraine? Serious question, BTW. I’d have probably voted for them over the Commie Kravchuk in 1991.

    • Replies: @AP
  66. If we take “trad” perspective, surrogate pregnancy would be indeed utterly disgusting and horrifying – just like all modern medical procedures.
    Go and research what trad people said about surgery, anaesthesia, blood transfusion, IVF, organ transplants etc.. when they were first introduced.

    Imagine explaining modern health care to your peasant great-great-great-grandpa.

    “Son, what are you going to do? You are sick, and instead of praying like good Christian, you pay some Jew to cut open your belly with knife? Are you completely insane?”

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    , @Ottman
  67. songbird says:

    Why not turn the African tsunami into a Russian one?

    • Replies: @Ano4
  68. @Mr. Hack

    Mr Hack/Elephant man,

    Why, in line with typical Banderetard stupidity are you trying to distort logic here?

    The issue or source of ridicule from Karlin is not for the people wanting to get a child you cretin…….it is for the people poor and desperate enough in 404 to risk their health in short and long term to give birth to a surrogate child.

    Its like if the US wanted to expel all of its pedophiles to Ukraine. That would be good for the US to be free from paedophiles…… but only a severe cretin would think it good for Ukraine, or argue the good for US as if it was the “good” for Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  69. Ano4 says:
    @utu

    Godspeed to Mr Karlin then.

  70. Ano4 says:
    @songbird

    Russians are tired.
    They had a tumultuous XXth century.
    They need some rest.
    Some peace and quiet.

    • Replies: @216
  71. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Yes, because:

    1. They would have done what Poland and Romania did and push for integration with the EU from the beginning. All countries that did this from the beginning did much better than did Ukraine (and Belarus).

    2. These people were actual patriots, not comprador elites.

  72. Mr. Hack says:
    @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    I’m curious whether or not somebody like yourself, that has undergone a sex change operation from a male to a female, would now be able to perform the biological functions of a surrogate mother?

    If so, you could perform the important function of a surrogate mother, of course only to those of an upper socio-economic class. Here’s your chance to finally be able to do something meaningful with your life.

  73. @AP

    Lol, further confirmation of what a demented fantasist you are

    Anyway, I guess that’s another 10 years to add to the “15 years behind”, making it 25 years, given that an East Ukrainian a Southern Ukrainian and another East Ukrainian have been the rulers since the coup you muppet. Don’t know where the catastrophic Yushchenko’s presidency features in there.

    More chance of a jew becoming Ayatollah of Iran, than a Galician – the poorest, most disillusioned, dumbest and worst infrastructure region of Europe’s poorest country…… becoming President of Ukraine – as it is there might now be more Russians and Russian born people in top ruling positions in Ukraine, than Galicia BS!
    The few west Ukrainians there – head of national Bank, zelensky’s ex chief of staff Bogdan and Denis Schmygel (Lev Bronstein?) all got there because they were prostitutes of 2 Eastern oligarchs, the first case replacing an Eastern Ukrainian (going along with the fake, insidious term you are using just for continuity of the post) who fell out with this trash Kolomoisky so needed to be replaced by somebody compliant with him, until situation so desperate/IMF blackmail for beggars loan – he also will become expendable.

    Because you have never been to Ukraine and are a fantasist in anything you claim…. you are a conveyor belt of ignorant drivel.

    • Replies: @AP
  74. 216 says:
    @Ano4

    Give us credit, our instability in America means that we never grow tired.

    We’ve had only the “Era of Good feelings” and the brief Harding “return to normalcy”.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  75. 216 says:
    @Dmitry

    In Western countries like Sweden, (most of) USA, UK and France, etc, prostitution is criminalized and seems quite a marginalized phenomenon.

    If you mean a “street prostitute” yes. The same goes for anyone that operates as a pimp or runs a brothel.

    But de-factor prostitution: porn, OnlySimps and Seeking Arrangement is widespread. Many of the women in strip clubs also perform “extras” upon request.

    It does seem like a fig leaf, but there’s a lot of emotional dignity tied up in said leaves.

    The more relevant factor is that most men don’t use the services, because there’s no emotional validation. There’s also marginal stigma and loss of social face, as you are viewed as incapable of attracting an actual woman.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  76. 216 says:
    @Dmitry

    Sensible ethical policy would be to legalize surrogate mothers

    The sensible policy is to abolish feminism, so women marry at earlier ages, rather than needing mad science to reproduce.

    Our Blue Banana rose to dominance on the back of the WEMP, with ages of male 25 and female 23 as the average.

    We brought the light of civilization to all, but in the process squandered our own values in the darkness.

  77. @AP

    So, Kravchuk (president 1991-94) born in Veliky Zhytyn, Rivne region, Western Ukraine, or Kuchma (president 1994-2005) born in Khmelnitsky region, Western Ukraine, or Yushchenko (president 2005-2010), born in Sumy region, Northern Ukraine, are from Eastern and Southern Ukraine? That covers 20 out of 24 years of pre-Maidan Ukraine. You sound like you studied geography in Ukrainian school, where they tell kids that polar bears live in Antarctica. LOL.

    • LOL: Jazman
    • Replies: @AP
    , @Beckow
  78. AP says:
    @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    given that an East Ukrainian a Southern Ukrainian and another East Ukrainian have been the rulers since the coup

    Sovok “engineer” doesn’t know geography.

    Poroshenko was born in southern Ukraine and spent part of his childhood in Moldova but moved to Kiev at age seventeen and has been based mostly in Kiev and Vynnytsia (west of Kiev) since then.

    Did you know Kiev is not in southern or eastern Ukraine?

    Poroshenko’s first PM was from Chernivtsi in western Ukraine and his second one was from Vynnytsia in west-central Ukraine.

    Zelensky is from Kryviy Rih in the western part of Dnipropetrovsk oblast (so SE Ukraine, though on the edge of it). His first PM was from Vynnytsia, second from Chernihiv (northern Ukraine, near Kiev) and third from Lviv.

    Speakers of parliament after Maidan have been from Lviv and currently from Zhytomir.

    ::::::::::::::

    So essentially the people not from Eastern or Southern Ukraine have been fixing the mess caused by Sovok comprador elites from SE Ukraine. It is as big mess, cleaning up after those thieving Sovok apes will be a long process, but it is being done.

  79. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    So, Kravchuk (president 1991-94) born in Veliky Zhytyn, Rivne region,

    Correct. However he was a lifelong Communist Party man.

    Kuchma (president 1994-2005) born in Khmelnitsky region, Western Ukraine

    He moved to Dnipropetrovsk at age sixteen or seventeen and built his entire life and career there, and was therefore a Dnipropetrovsk man.

    And he was born in Chernihiv region, northern Ukraine. You don’t know facts.

    Yushchenko (president 2005-2010),

    Yes. Remind me where his PMs were from? Dnipropetrovsk (Tymoshenko) , Kiev (Yekhanurov), and Donetsk (for awhile he was stuck with Yanukovich as his PM).

    And you forgot to mention Yanukovich.

    So of the 23 years between independence and Maidan, Ukraine had as president people from the SE from 15 years, and almost every PM has been from Ukraine’s south or east (Azarov, actually, was a Russian immigrant who came to Ukraine when he was in his thirties).

    These are the thieves and apes who ran Ukraine into the ground. The cost of easy independence is that the ones in charge were the same compradors who had ruled during Soviet times. And most of this sort of scum were from the south and east.

  80. I find it bizarre how a lot of right wing Westerners look up to places like Ukraine as “strong Christian nation”, and yet they have this sort of degeneracy going on. Not exactly consistent with “strong Christian values” is it?

    • Replies: @another anon
  81. @Dmitry

    The idea that “The West” (meaning Anglo countries clearly) has a more permissive attitude towards prostitution than Russia/Eastern Europe is laughable. Prostitution in the UK is rare and when it exists it almost always involves Eastern Europe or some other immigrant women.

    Eastern European women are much more likely to sell themselves than Anglo women, so the claim of some posters here that Anglo countries have looser sexual mores than Eastern European countries is highly questionable.

    • Agree: Kent Nationalist
  82. @another anon

    What a shitty strawman you have created here. Karlin clearly stated his objection stems entirely from the humiliating nature of renting out your people’s women to foreigners, nothing more. The moral bloviating about the “sanctity of life” is entirely of your own creation and has nothing to do with his stance. One can be entirely ok with prostitution but still object to the notion of his own sister becoming a whore, only a simpleton would find anything contradictory about any of this stuff.

    I’ve found that one of the weirder and rather exploitable characteristics of whites (which I assume you are) is their rabid insistence on adhering to ideological absolutes rather than reacting rationally to circumstances. Your attitude here is a prime example of this and the usual suspects have weaponized this against you.

    • Replies: @another anon
  83. Pericles says:
    @216

    From what I read in Sweden, street prostitution is dead. There is, however, this new thing called the internet. A recent twist is to set up a brothel for the weekend via AirBnB.

  84. @Europe Europa

    “strong Christian values”

    In times of “strong trad christian values” noble and rich women who could afford it handed children immediately after birth to wet nurses and servants. No one protested that it is somehow “unnatural”, “degenerate” or “ungodly”, least of all the church.

    If pregnancy surrogacy was possible in the good old trad times, do you really think that noble women wouldn’t push their pregnancies to serf girls?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  85. @Anonymous (n)

    renting out your people’s women to foreigners,

    If you feel so very strongly that they are “your women”, what have you done to them, in concrete terms, to find a better way to make a living?

    One can be entirely ok with prostitution but still object to the notion of his own sister becoming a whore

    If your sister lives on the street and have no other choice than prostitution, and your only reaction is to curse her and call her whore, I would rather doubt you are as loving brother as you imagine yourself to be.

    • Replies: @Anonymous (n)
  86. @Dmitry

    “some actresses like Elizabeth Banks, that don’t want to damage their bodies”

    Maybe husband Max Handelman didn’t want her body “damaged”. Still, they have two children, so there’s that. Hollywood and the music industry are demographic sinks for pretty women.

  87. @another anon

    You’re not replying to the point I was making but merely taking sentences from my post and making unrelated assertions about them, so there is no ground for further discussion.

  88. Ano4 says:
    @216

    in America means that we never grow tired

    .

    Americans are a young nation.

  89. @Europe Europa

    There are large numbers of Eastern European prostitutes in Western Europe, America (NYC&LA), the Middle East (especially Dubai), East Asia, and even India (Bollywood film/modeling industry).

  90. @another anon

    Actually, they did complain about the practice(which is why you know about it). That’s why Empress Alexandra is considered as a virtuous for raising her own children; not that it made her very popular.

  91. Beckow says:
    @AnonFromTN

    There is a hint of desperation in AP’s demented writing. I have pinned him down as a quasi-autistic emigre completely lost in the history of the region. He tries to overcome that with passionate cherry-picking, endless name-calling, and optimism. I actually support his optimism, I wish Ukraine the best – they are our neighbours and most people who came from Ukraine are wonderful. Needless to say, they don’t share AP’s optimism, they want to forget their past. But without some optimism Ukraine won’t be able to turn itself around.

    I have suggested to AP before that Ukraine has consistently made bad strategic choices, it has the worst elite in Europe, and miracles simply don’t happen. Now he says that Ukraine is roughly where Russia was in 2005-6. Even if that would be true, what is different today is the coming economic retrenchment in Europe. Maybe it’s bad luck, but even talk about ‘Ukraine in EU’ has completely ceased. There is no interest in EU to fund Kiev much longer. That leaves the repo man – and Kiev is slowly starting to sell what’s left, at bargain prices.

    This is not about east or west, Galicia or Dnipro – most Ukraine rulers are, like everywhere, simply striving opportunists living in the capitol. Ukraine is ruled by Kiev. This is not about to get better, Germany or France, even Poland, can take the coming economic dip. Can Ukraine? The stars are not aligned, it is time to stop hallucinating about 1991 or 2014 and face that reality.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
    , @AnonFromTN
  92. BB753 says:

    Well, at least the Euromaidan coup was worth it! Now Ukrainian women can rent out their wombs for their barren globalist overlords.. err, overladies! Ain’t democracy grand?

  93. @JohnPlywood

    Wider heads at birth is correct.

    However, Europeans are closer to Americans than Asians are in the pelvic canal shape according to your second link.

  94. AP says:
    @Europe Europa

    Prostitution in the UK is rare and when it exists it almost always involves Eastern Europe or some other immigrant women.

    You mean there is no demand from Westerners? Prostitutes debase themselves for money, often because they are in desperate circumstances. Customers pay to debase themselves. Which is worse?

    Divorce rates, children out of wedlock, STD rates (although this may be moderated by access to condoms) and number of average sexual partners are better indications societal sexual morality that a few thousand prostitutes abroad.

    Divorce rate:

    Spain: 56.8%
    Denmark: 55.6%
    Finland: 55.6%
    France: 54.4%
    Russia: 52.2%

    Italy: 47%
    Sweden: 44.4%
    USA: 42%
    Ukraine: 41.8%*
    UK: 40.9%
    Germany: 40%

    Bulgaria: 39.5%
    Hungary: 37.7%

    Austria: 35.5%
    Croatia: 34.7%
    Poland: 33.3%
    Slovakia: 30.9%

    Serbia: 25.5%
    Romania: 22%

    Percentage of birth outside of marriage:

    France: 60%
    Bulgaria: 59%
    Estonia: 59%
    Sweden: 54.5%
    Denmark: 54%

    UK: 48%
    Slovakia: 40%

    Germany: 35%
    Romania: 31%

    Poland: 24%
    Russia: 22%
    Croatia: 20%

    HIV rate:

    Russia: 1.2%
    Ukraine: .9% *

    USA: .3% **
    Italy: .3%
    Sweden: .2%

    Serbia, Croatia basically 0%

    Average number of average sexual partners (I could only find data for 2005):

    Finland: 12.4
    Norway 12.1
    Sweden: 11.8

    Ireland: 11.1
    USA: 10.7 **
    Serbia: 10.1
    UK: 9.8
    Czech Republic: 9

    Croatia: 7.5
    Poland: 6
    Germany: 5.8
    Slovakia: 5.4

    ::::::::::::::::

    Overall pattern across Europe: Scandinavia and to a lesser extent Russia most libertine, Visegrad and Balkans most moral. Germany and UK in the middle.

    *Ukraine’s average is not a unitary construct because eastern Ukrainians are like Russians, but worse, and western Ukrainians are like Poles, but worse

    **Mostly driven by high black rates

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  95. AP says:
    @Beckow

    There is a hint of desperation in AP’s demented writing

    Your projection and bitterness at having been correctly and publicly identified as a serial liar.

    Ukraine has consistently made bad strategic choices

    Correct. Until 2014.

    Now he says that Ukraine is roughly where Russia was in 2005-6.

    Relative to the 1990s, Ukraine is where Russia had been in 2004-2005. This isn’t “he says” it is the per capita GDP (both nominal and PPP) in constant dollars.

    This is not about to get better

    Beckow, 2016:

    “There will be no growth in Ukraine for years. What would the economy grow from?”

    Reality: in 2016 Ukraine’s GDP per capita grew 2.855%, in 2017 2.916%, in 2018 3.86%, in 2019 will be also a little below 4%:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD.ZG?locations=UA

    Ukraine’s economy, like that of the rest of the world, will shrink in 2020 due to the virus and rebound in 2021.

  96. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Surrogacy tourism is a profitable and growing industry in Russia, with clinics advertising around the world. Largest market for surrogacy tourism in Russia is Germany and the most growing market for this service is China. Russia has one of the most liberal surrogacy laws in the world.

    Russian law is not difficult to understand, so I don’t understand the post above at all which claims it is something in the past tense.

    The industry grew in the last 20 years (not in the 1990s, as such clinics and treatments are only just beginning at that time). Basically Ukraine has copy-pasted Russian laws in this area, and legalized it since 2015, in order to aggressively try to attain some of the market share.

    Also the comparison to sex tourism, is not a very sensible one. Surrogacy has not relation to prostitution – it is a fertility treatment, to help women who cannot get pregnant themselves to still have a child.

    The reason Western and Chinese couples to Russia/Ukraine for surrogacy tourism, is not because of poverty in Russia/Ukraine – but because it is illegal in their countries, and legal in Russia/Ukraine (i.e. it is a result of different legal regimes).

  97. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    Germany or France, even Poland, can take the coming economic dip. Can Ukraine? The stars are not aligned, it is time to stop hallucinating

    More gloom and doom offered up by our resident expert in such matters, like a broken record. Believe me, Ukrainians have been through so much that another economic dip is not going to be the one that blows the castle down. As long as they have enough to eat and a roof over their heads, they’ll manage and persevere. There’s plenty of work that needs to be done within Slovakia to help its urban poor, and no need for you to lose sleep over neighboring Ukraine:

    Sleep where you can, roam the streets, take drugs – this is life on the outskirts of Bratislava, captured here by the photographer Peter Dobis

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2015/oct/02/peter-dobis-street-photography-bratislava

  98. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    As I’ve already mentioned, I think that Karlin, for some odd reason wasn’t aware that surrogacy clinics are to be found in Russia too. Unfortunately, I think that he jumped on the “opportunity” to try and besmudge the less than pure image that he thought Ukraine needs to maintain in order to fulfill his sense of morality? Or maybe, as you’ve suggested he really does ” have some kind of “promoted content about Ukraine” Who knows, what really lurks in the minds of men? 🙂

  99. @AP

    LOL infinity! What a sick animal you truly are.

    I said before that a single Russian mother can earn at least 5-6 times more than the average person in ukropia , paid by the state, just for having a child. That incentive should be sufficient for Tsernopol or Lvov whores to at least halve their prostitution hours, come to Russia and earn, by comparison to their current nightmare, “Garden of Eden” levels of prosperity……and reduce the desolation levels forcing them to become surrogates/trafficked as is now occurring.

    Offering wombs for infertile couples who otherwise wouldn’t have children is neither sordid or evil

    LOL- you’re that desperate for attention, the next fake garbage you are spontaneously spamming is that these woman are charitably minded and part of a charity!!! The ” he walked into my moving fist” type of disingenuous, retard argumentation – ridiculous when what we have here is a desperate, exploitative situation typical of a failed third world country like Ukraine.

    A women forced to risk social judgement from her friends/family, risking her health in the short and long term, guaranteeing several months of pain and nausea, knowing that if a C-section birth from this then chances of her having some of her own children are reduced ( in the worst health care system and infrastructure of any white country in the world, lowest gdp percentage spend on health… and of course probably by far the highest stillborn rate)……. is not good! Arguing as if they are the buyer/parent is beyond idiocy. P. S. I expect plenty of western faggots to have had their “children” by Ukrainian surrogate women already.

    .. and is better than offering bodies for sex, as is common among Donbass women

    HAHAHAHA – as you are a demented, creepy fantasist who has never been to Donbass, Kiev, New Karabulak/Lvov or anywhere in ukraine ( Wikipedia doesn’t count), I can’t think of any anecdote, statistic or general reality this dumb lie could be it’s based on. I already mentioned Lvov whores deserving their own category in Banderastan’s much reduced export category, there’s the well established ritual of Galician prostitutes descending permanently into Kiev, Kharkov, Donetsk,Odessa etc to practise their “trade” over the last 30 years. Women going the other way has been practically zero over the last 29 years LOL. Its an established fact given that since Maidan, “Ukrainian prostitute” has taken on a unique, sad, aura of its own worldwide – thanks to the “help” of these swine North American Banderetards.
    EU countries offering rare non-slavery-like jobs to Ukrainians are invariably giving them to Eastern Ukrainians, or non-Galicians, after all these are the qualified people who can work skilled jobs–hence why they have been far more populated and richer than derelict Galicia over the last few decades.
    Is it based on you being that dumb to falsely read a map, and your writing showing a clear inability of understanding difference between HIV and AIDS? – wouldn’t be a problem….. except if you weren’t fantasising about being a medic!

    As of 2014,Russia was a major source of surrogacy, although America was number 1

    Hours of “research” leads you to some article from. 6 years ago(LOL), almost certainly based on data from 2010,2008 or some other previous date (figures for that type of thing not collected annually you muppet)….. in order to make a cretinous false equivalence between a highly successful on every social parameter in the last decade country like Russia….. and a disastrous, permanently in the 1990’s banana Republic like Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AP
  100. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    HIV rate:

    This another idée fixe that I already explained is nonsense – between country HIV rate does not correlate to “sexual liberalism”.

    Countries with the lowest HIV rates in the world, can often have the most sexual liberalism (i.e. Australia, Netherlands, etc).

    On the other hand, within Russia, the more productive and hard working people, cities like Ekaterinburg, can have some of the highest HIV rates, because of the silk road, and opium routes from Afghanistan in combination with the city people having had higher incomes.

    Again- these can be more hard working cities (which continued to generate income during economic crisis), which were for the same reason more attractive markets for opium. This is the city with more “moral virtue” (hard working), for the same reason became a more attractive market for opium. While cities with greater unemployment, had not been as targeted.

    As you see now with coronavirus, epidemic spread differences between countries does not follow according to simple political concepts, or moral concepts either. Thucydides wrote this already in the 5th century Bc.

    • Replies: @AP
  101. AP says:
    @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    The trans stalker was triggered.

    I said before that a single Russian mother can earn at least 5-6 times more than the average person in ukropia , paid by the state, just for having a child

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    Average wage in Russia is 499 Euros, in Ukraine 311 Euros.

    I expect plenty of western faggots to have had their “children” by Ukrainian surrogate women already.

    According to Dmitri, Ukrainian law bans homosexual parents from getting surrogate children from Ukraine. Russian law does not, so such people go to Russia rather than Ukraine for surrogate children.

    “and is better than offering bodies for sex, as is common among Donbass women”

    as you are a demented, creepy fantasist who has never been to Donbass

    I haven’t. But those who have write stuff like:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/im-shocked-shocked-to-hear/#comment-757678

    “If you want to get laid, go to Donetsk. The women have no morals, prostituting yourself is just what women do. In Lwow people still get married and value families. That alone explains why so many in the “manosphere” side with East Ukraine.”

    I can’t think of any anecdote, statistic or general reality this dumb lie could be it’s based on.

    I’ll help you:

    https://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/hiv-eastern-ukraines-silent-crisis

    HIV: Eastern Ukraine’s Silent Crisis

    Prostitution:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Ukraine

    According to the Ukrainian Institute of Social Studies in 2011 there were 50,000 women working as prostitutes with every sixth prostitute being a minor.[6] The organisation claimed the largest number of prostitutes were found (in 2011) in Kiev (about 9,000 people), then in the Odessa area (about 6,000), about 3,000 could be found in Dnipropetrovsk and in Donetsk, in Kharkiv 2,500 and 2,000 were said to have worked in Crimea

    Per capita, despite Kiev being the capital and richest city, Odessa easily leads in prostitution. Donetsk ties it. Bandera-country, Lviv, isn’t even on the radar.

    Hours of “research”

    Sovok civil “engineer” doesn’t even now how google works. Thinks it takes hours to find stuff.

    Now we know why Sovok infrastructure was so terrible.

  102. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    This another idée fixe that I already explained is nonsense – between country HIV rate does not correlate to “sexual liberalism”.

    If no one had sex outside of marriage HIV would be limited to drug abusers and their spouses. So there does exist a correlation.

    On the other hand, within Russia, the more productive and hard working people, cities like Ekaterinburg, can have some of the highest HIV rates

    HIV rate in the USA is highest among African Americans. HIV rate is higher in Africa than in Europe. Hardest-working, most productive, and wealthiest? LOL.

    because of the silk road, and opium routes from Afghanistan in combination with the city people having had higher incomes.

    These are excuses. There is practically no HIV in Poland and Poles are hardworking. It is all about a combination of willingness to use hard drugs, impulsivity, and promiscuity. And heroin is cheap.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    , @Dmitry
  103. @AP

    Actually I have read some more about it, it is legally impossible for a *foreign* citizen to buy a Russian womb.

    So no, Russia is not like the Ukraine in this respect.

    • Replies: @AP
  104. I have often thought that Ukraine is like a world of the Imperium of Man that has been occupied by the forces of Chaos.

    This would be the Daemonculaba.

    • Replies: @AP
  105. @Dmitry

    Don’t be ridiculous Dmitry. There is no comparison between the scale of this in Ukraine, compared to Russia. In the 90s-2000 decades there certainly was, but ukropia is worse than stagnant

    You can’t talk of equivalence, when there are far more occurences of this in Ukraine against our border with China and massive population plus :

    1. 1-2 million Chinese visiting Russia, and vice versa every year….. against practically nill between China and Ukraine

    2. Russia having one of the most pro-maternity policies on the planet, non-comparable to Ukraine

    I can still remember a time when an alarming number of parents I knew, even though they loved and fully looked after their children, were openly talking about wanting their child, on a school exchange trip to the US or Europe or even young adult son/daughter of theirs on a University course abroad…… to get the “wonderful chance” to be adopted or have a family from there as legal guardian. That’s due to the situation the country was in then…… near impossible to hear it now

  106. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    So where does Dmitri come from when he writes:

    Surrogacy tourism is a profitable and growing industry in Russia, with clinics advertising around the world. Largest market for surrogacy tourism in Russia is Germany and the most growing market for this service is China. Russia has one of the most liberal surrogacy laws in the world.

    Russian law is not difficult to understand, so I don’t understand the post above at all which claims it is something in the past tense.

    The industry grew in the last 20 years (not in the 1990s, as such clinics and treatments are only just beginning at that time). Basically Ukraine has copy-pasted Russian laws in this area, and legalized it since 2015, in order to aggressively try to attain some of the market share.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  107. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I have often thought that Ukraine is like a world of the Imperium of Man that has been occupied by the forces of Chaos.

    Ukraine is often the source of Russians’ worst projections. I haven’t read Jung in about 20 years but it must serve as a “shadow” for Russians.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  108. @AP

    I’m surprised that the HIV rate in Italy is the same as the US, considering the much higher percentage of blacks in the US. Suggests a significant percentage of the Italian population are highly degenerate.

    I’ve heard one of the main ways HIV spreads throughout a population is through bisexual/”down low” men, something the African-American population has quite a lot of apparently.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  109. @another anon

    …surrogate pregnancy would be indeed utterly disgusting and horrifying – just like all modern medical procedures.

    There’s nothing modern about selling babies to slavery. If anything, it’s the oldest and vilest trick of ‘traditional’ culture.

  110. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Russia has comparative advantage in surrogacy compared to Ukraine, because there is more liberal legal regime. Russia law is all available to read on this topic, as is Ukrainian law. Stop being lazy and read the law.

    And this is part of the rivalry in the surrogacy tourism industry between Russia and Ukraine.

    E.g. a clinic in Peter advertises – note the rivalry with Ukraine in advertising.

    Compensated surrogacy is totally legal

    No adoption nor court decision is required, except single intended parents

    The surrogate’s name is never listed on the birth certificate

    The surrogate irrevocably loses all rights to the child

    No requirement for the child to be genetically related to at least one commissioning parent as in Ukraine.

    The law in Russia doesn’t set any age limit for Intended Parents. All ages are welcome

    Patients infected by HIV, Hepatitis B & C can legally parent a child in Russia through surrogacy given the following conditions:

    Therapy to reach min./not detectable virus load in blood;

    Sperm wash;

    Voluntary informed consent of the Surrogate for her participation in a gestational surrogacy program with infected patient

    https://www.avapeter.com/structure/surrogacy/

    And foreign citizens are the customers – you can see the customers discussing on internet forums how the service was in Russia. And there’s documentaries about foreign couples who come to Russia for surrogacy, etc. Social media groups with testimonials, etc.

    • Thanks: AP
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  111. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    And foreign citizens are the customers – you can see the customers discussing on internet forums how the service was in Russia. And there’s documentaries about foreign couples who come to Russia for surrogacy, etc. Social media groups with testimonials, etc.

    Your point of departure seems to be with Karlin, not with AP:

    Actually I have read some more about it, it is legally impossible for a *foreign* citizen to buy a Russian womb.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  112. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    no one had sex outside of marriage HIV would be limited

    HIV rates do not correlate with “sex outside marriage” rates when comparing populations. So you can’t use it is as some source for trying to infer “sex outside marriage”, when you don’t have a more direct source.

    USA is highest among African Americans. HIV rate is higher in Africa

    What is the strange inference here to African American?

    In Russia, economically productive cities have an HIV crisis – this is one of the features of the HIV crises in Russia known by epidemiologists.

    The relevance for the discussion is that you can’t infer something terrible about Donbass, from its HIV rates. As we know often, hard-working, successful, productive cities can have the worst HIV crisis, while relatively unproductive cities without excess income could often avoid such an epidemic.

    There is practically no HIV in Poland and Poles are hardworking

    No-one is saying that to be hardworking is a sufficient condition for HIV infection.

    The point is inside Russia, there is not a correlation between “moral virtues” of cities, and where there is an HIV crisis or not, (and it will be similar in Ukraine, as it also is between countries).

    Also internationally, there is not a correlation between “sexual liberalism” and HIV. ( E.g. some of the most sexually liberal countries with the world’s lowest HIV rates). HIV epidemic is because of the opium trade route, combined with incompetent government/authorities’ policies.

    • Replies: @AP
  113. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    AP can research and study Russia’s and Ukraine’s federal laws himself, from the official government sources, instead of relying on a forum hearsay.

    As for Karlin – we are guests in his home; so it’s his prerogative if he invited us here to show some anti-Ukraine leaflets.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  114. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    I’m not aware of any “anti-Ukrainian leaflets” that Karlin, you, I or anybody else has presented here. If you’re referring to this thread then as far as I can see his blog is an open forum, and as such is therefore open to criticism?

    The issue at hand, that I tried to present and contrast involves your own opinion that foreigners indeed have the ability to avail themselves of surrogacy services offered within Russia and Karlin’s opinion that they do not. If I’m wrong in presenting this dichotomy, then I wish that somebody would pull out their very sharp razor blade and point out to me where I’ve gone astray?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  115. Ottman says:
    @another anon

    Surgeries existed in the time of your peasant great-great-great-grandpa, they just weren’t available except to the rich.

    • Replies: @another anon
  116. EldnahYm says:
    @Europe Europa

    Doesn’t Italy have a fair amount of African prostitutes as well?

  117. @AP

    OK, you (and Dmitry) are right, I relied on a bad source.

    This reinforces my point that the RF needs to be exterminated just like the UkSSR.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  118. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    My point comment was to AP – who is one of my favourite people to argue with -, can research themselves (from the real sources), rather than relying on a forum hearsay, even my own one. Go to primary sources for something like legal knowledge.

    A few months ago we had an argument about Indian vs Ukrainian computer scientists. I was saying to AP that India produces a lot of intelligent people in this field. And AP said that the Indian one is bad because that it what people said in the Steve Sailor forum. Well, what people said in the Steve Sailor forum – village gossip.

    I’m not aware of any “anti-Ukrainian leaflets” that Karlin, you, I or anybody else has presented here. If you’re referring to this thread then as far as I can see his blog is an open forum

    Karlin has a negative opinion about Ukraine and that is his prerogative. He is open for discussion and corrections, but his overall view of Ukraine is a negative one. I similarly won’t go to Varlamov (a very popular blogger in Livejournal, who dislikes Putin) for a sympathetic assessment of Putin. Or do you read New York Times, for knowledge about Donald Trump? Not really – you go to New York Times for classical music reviews. You go to Varlamov for beautiful photo stories, rather than balanced views of Putin. You go to Karlin for “Age of Malthusian Industrialism”, and why aliens will try not to crash the computer simulation they share with us – not for kindly takes on Ukraine.

    • Thanks: AP
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  119. Ano4 says:
    @AP

    I believe you are right.

    But the opposite is also true: for many Ukrainians, Russia is the absolute Mordor.

    I think reasonable people should abstain from exaggerated claims about countries where they haven’t had an opportunity to live for at least a couple of years.

    • Replies: @216
  120. Ano4 says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    This reinforces my point that the RF needs to be exterminated just like the UkSSR.

    It might be a little too radical as approach, but you are right on one thing though: RF and Ukraine are apples from the same tree.

  121. @Ottman

    Surgeries existed in the time of your peasant great-great-great-grandpa, they just weren’t available except to the rich.

    Traditionally, surgery meant setting broken bones and amputations of limbs. Chopping the human body open was unthinkable.
    Remember that Hippocratic oath forbids “cutting for stone”, because this procedure was nearly always fatal.

    Modern surgical methods are very recent.

    https://timelines.issarice.com/wiki/Timeline_of_surgery

    1883 Scottish surgeon Lawson Tait removes the fallopian tube of a woman suffering an ectopic pregnancy.
    1884 The first successful removal of a brain tumor is reported.
    1885 The first successful appendectomy is performed, in Iowa.
    1895 Norwegian surgeon Axel Cappelen performs the first successful cardiac surgery.
    1925 English surgeon Henry Souttar performs the first open heart surgery.

  122. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    Dmitry, you’re a good guy and even more importantly, a loyal friend. You’re still not willing to go into how Karlin is wrong and you’re right regarding the ability of foreigners to access surrogacy services within Russia, after I’ve tried to lay the bait three times now! No reason to fret, as Karlin himself has come clean. I’ve always maintained that being honest is one of Karlin’s greatest virtues.

    Of course he has the right to dislike Ukraine (and now even Russia!), but he should find better reasons to fault it than this flimsy escapade. 🙂

    Yes, AP is a great debater, and usually does his own homework, nobody is perfect though. 🙂

    Love your comments regarding city planning, architectural style and culture. You add an interesting and flavorful top-note to this blog.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  123. @Europe Europa

    There is another angle to this you are overlooking: to sell your body, you must have willing buyers. Eastern European women tend to be prettier. Remember baroness Ashton? I am not saying that all Anglo-Saxon women are that ugly, but…

    Besides, they are likely cheaper. E.g., Russian prostitutes complain that their Ukrainian colleagues undermine their business by offering their services for less.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  124. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    HIV rates do not correlate with “sex outside marriage” rates when comparing populations.

    The Catholic Church’s attempts to support monogamy in Africa (where it is traditional to have multiple sex partners) has reduced HIV rates. Somewhat counterintuitively, this has been more effective than handing out free condoms.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/2009/03/aids_expert_who_defended_the_p.html

    The pope was right about condoms, says Harvard HIV expert

    the Pope said that the distribution and marketing of condoms is not the solution or the best solution to African Aids; rather, it is monogamy and faithfulness. And the evidence is so clear about partner reduction. If you promote monogamy and faithfulness what you get is a reduction in the number of partners and concurrent partners. We haven’t mentioned concurrency: we are finding that if you have partners, ongoing relationships that overlap, these are particularly effective in transmitting HIV. The evidence is so clear about that, that one of the reasons I stuck my neck out, knowing that I would get into a lot of trouble with my peers and colleagues, is because the Pope didn’t repeat the usual condoms-versus-abstinence but instead mentioned fidelity and monogamy.

    In Russia, economically productive cities have an HIV crisis – this is one of the features of the HIV crises in Russia known by epidemiologists.

    Moscow is hardworking and productive. Does it have a higher HIV rate than Yekaterinburg?

    The point is inside Russia, there is not a correlation between “moral virtues” of cities, and where there is an HIV crisis or not, (and it will be similar in Ukraine, as it also is between countries).

    There are man ways of HIV transmission: IV drug use, and promiscuity. These things are connected to moral virtues.

    And so we have other connections. In addition to having a high HIV rate, Donbas also has a high rate of unwed mothers (that is, both parents not taking responsibility for their children and raising them as a married couple) and the highest rate of abortion in the world. It also has high crime rates.

    Also internationally, there is not a correlation between “sexual liberalism” and HIV

    Of course there is. HIV rate is highest in Africa. Within the same country, less sexually liberal regions (such as Donbas) have a higher rate than more conservative ones. However, it is moderated by other factors that in the civilized West make the HIV rate very low (but note it is still higher in Sweden than in Poland).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  125. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    .

    Russian prostitutes complain that their Ukrainian colleagues undermine their business by offering their services for less

    You’re speaking from experience, right? 🙂

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  126. @Mr. Hack

    Sorry to disappoint, I never had any interest in prostitutes, cheap or expensive. But Russian prostitutes are pretty vocal on social media. They can’t officially demand government action, though, as prostitution is illegal in Russia.

  127. @Beckow

    Here is a recent Ukrainian joke.
    – Show me a person who benefited by Maidan!
    – I did.
    – Are you stealing IMF money?
    – No.
    – Marauding in Donbass?
    – No.
    – Taking bribes at a blockpost?
    – No.
    – How did you benefit, then?
    – I live in Crimea.

    • LOL: Jazman, Blinky Bill
  128. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    My point comment was to AP – who is one of my favourite people to argue with -, can research themselves (from the real sources), rather than relying on a forum hearsay, even my own one.

    You are consistently honest so I am comfortable taking your claims at face value. And it looks like AK confirmed that you were indeed correct.

  129. Peter Frost says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Any self-respecting state would have the people who organize these services shot.

    It’s legal in Canada and fairly common. There are restrictions on the reasons for reimbursing the mother, but that doesn’t seem to be the main deterrent. The main deterrent is the high cost.

    I have no moral objections to surrogacy.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Exile
  130. utu says:
    @Peter Frost

    “I have no moral objections…” – Spoken like a true Darwinist. Morality is not part of language, not part of discourse. Morality does not exist.

    • Replies: @Ottman
  131. Ottman says:
    @utu

    I believe Frost is also one of these “round-Earthers.”

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  132. Ottman says:

    Much like with abortion and prostitution, this comes down to whether or not you regard the women doing it as a random sample of the nation. I as a white American man would not care if some Arab oil prince flies to Las Vegas to indulge his fantasy of dominating a white American woman through prostitution. Because he’s not dominating a random white American woman, he’s dominating a broken white American woman. But if ordinary white American girls were talking about prostituting themselves to Arab oil princes as if it was a legitimate career path, I’d find it a lot more disgusting.

  133. @Ottman

    I believe Frost is also one of these “round-Earthers.”

    That’s a serious accusation. Maybe he even believes that 2×2=4? That would be totally unacceptable. Just ask Federal Reserve.

  134. Exile says:
    @AP

    Yes. I’ve dealt with the moral, social and legal wreckage of surrogacy before. “Seller’s remorse” and “she signed the contract” are very ugly concepts to argue in a legal case when the “res” in dispute is a human child.

    What is your point?

    Don’t waste my time with any Talmudry about how “surrogacy = adoption,” either. Surrogacy is child-selling and womb-rental. It’s much closer to slavery and prostitution than it is to adoption.

  135. Exile says:
    @Peter Frost

    Then you have no moral objections to slavery or prostitution. Spoken like a true scion of lolbertarian-liberal NuCanada.

    Surrogacy amounts to slavery/identured servitude with a provision for manumission at the age of majority. Parental power over the surrogate child is more comprehensive than the power Confederate planters had over their slaves.

    • Replies: @Ottman
  136. 216 says:
    @Ano4

    I think reasonable people should abstain from exaggerated claims about countries where they haven’t had an opportunity to live for at least a couple of years.

    Without exaggerated claims, it would be hard for me to poast anything here. I tend to play the character of an American jingoist to the East Europe audience, you can find my mundane and informative takes on the Sailer/Audacious blogs.

    Is it the rootless cosmopolitan whom gives the character? Nay, I say, it is the provincial rube that makes each patch of land different from the others.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  137. Denis says:
    @AP

    For your information, I have never met anyone who considers either prostitution or commercially renting out wombs for surrogacy normal. I’ve met many who consider surrogacy to be a good option if natural birth is unavailable for whatever reason, but usually, the surrogate is viewed as a volunteer of sorts, and the entire option is viewed as something like adoption.

    Not that this comes up in daily conversation or anything, but there you go.

  138. Ottman says:
    @Exile

    lolbertarian-liberal NuCanada

    The f*** are you talking about?

    Parental power over the surrogate child is more comprehensive than the power Confederate planters had over their slaves.

    The same logic would apply to any parent-child relationship

  139. So who was/is the original cause of all this then??

    surely not the russians who invaded and turned a quarter into smoldering ruins and are waging an economical(and all kinds of other) wars on us. And russia trying every way possible to sabotage. In their eyes if i cant have it neither can anyone else.

    While what i see in this video is disturbing and is of course quite unfortunate the good thing is that we are slowly turning the screws on you russians still left in ukraine.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  140. Alfred says:
    @Jon Halpenny

    The Tartars were infamous for raiding and carrying off the beautiful young Slav women and selling them into the harems of the Turks

    The fact that Turkish men and women don’t look at all like their Ukrainian counterpart is proof that they were genocided once they reached their “sell by date” 🙁

    Guess who the middle men were on each side of the Black Sea? Yes. You guessed correct.

  141. Mr. Hack says:

    Karlin’s revulsion of the idea of surrogacy would benefit from a more detailed explanation (after all, he’s the one that has opened up this Pandora’s box). He recently underwent a one week complete fast (what must be an extremely arduous task) which he dedicated to “Our Lord Jesus Christ”. Perhaps, Orthodox Christian sensibilities have penetrated more deeply his thinking processes? Here’s a concise and articulate explanation of the Orthodox Church’s stance on surrogacy, I recommend reading the whole short piece:

    If a married couple conceive through IVF or otherwise and then have the embryo transplanted to a surrogate, they bring a third-party into the most intimate dimension of their life together. The problem is that the one flesh union of marriage is between one man and one woman. Our children are the fruit of our bodies, of the intimate “one flesh” union of two people. To bring someone else’s body into the picture is a form of adultery.
    Orthodox Christians, and others with good moral sense, will see that adoption is a far better solution for the childless than is the scandal of surrogacy. Children without parents are already living human beings in need. To provide them homes and families is entirely virtuous. Instead of perpetuating practices that risk disaster for all concerned, our Church and our society should do all that they can to promote adoption.

    http://easternchristianinsights.blogspot.com/2012/06/orthodox-response-to-surrogate.html

  142. Karlin’s revulsion of the idea of surrogacy would benefit from a more detailed explanation

    He explained it well.

    There is no humanitarian faggotry, no concern for wellbeing of the women and children – he explicitly wishes to use the children as cannon fodder in future patriotic war.
    It is pure patriotic rage at foreigners taking advantage of “our women” (it is well known that AK sees Ukraine as rightful Russian land that will be reunited, sooner or later).
    If the customers were Russians or Ukrainians of pure Slavic descent, AK would be completely fine with the whole business.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  143. Ano4 says:
    @Svidomyatheart

    Sure, everything bad that happens in Ukraine is Russians’ fault.

    Nothing to do with the brain-dead zombie Ukrainian nationalists and their greedy and immoral Jewish oligarch best buddies (an anomalous relationship, but hey this is Ukraine!).

    Nothing to do with US / NATO using Ukrainian nationalists as anti-Russian proxies since 1945.

    Just like the Austro-Hungarian Empire did before 1918.

    Nothing to do with 5 billion $ of US taxpayers’ money funneled into anti Russian propaganda since Ukrainian independence.

    And of course nothing to do with Victoria Nuland and the likes of her.

    Everything outlined above is irrelevant, it’s all “Putin did it!!!”

    When are you people be adults enough to own the consequence of your actions?

    Go jumping higher!

    Ridiculous.

    Pathetic…

    • Replies: @AP
  144. @Mr. Hack

    WTF Mr Hack /Elephant man?

    It’s easy, despicable and sadistic to argue with empty, stupid platitudes of “Ukrainians have been through so much that another economic dip is not going to be the one that blows the castle down.”……. when you are a North American Banderetard 1000s of kilometres away who has obsessively argued (without any money or practical help, of course) retarded anti-russian policies over the last 30 years that have prematurely killed, massively depopulated and impoverished millions of Ukrainians you dimwit.

    How cruel are you?

    After recently experiencing a fatal, catastrophic double digit recession only a few years ago….. it is about to suffer another double-digit recession disaster (much worse than Russia lol)… having not even shaken off the 2008 crisis….. and still living in the disastrous 90’s…. not even close to its end of USSR period much higher levels of wealth and prosperity.

    It got destroyed in the 1990s and then started to recover, as Russia was recovering under Putin . It started to reach a crescendo but then had its throat slit with the catastrophic Yuschenko presidency, Yanukovich came in and at least stopped some of the bleeding…… then the country died by 10 bullets to the face from a shotgun, got reincarnated as a slug…. then the slug of Ukraine died by getting incinerated on a nuclear explosion…… although I’m happy to report that the slug was wearing a vishivanka at the time of its incineration

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  145. @Mr. Hack

    Shell……..I was debating which weapon, forgot the ammo! …. although poison, suicides would be equally suitable comparisons.

    You obviously have never been to Slovakia….. it is a very successful country, that runs itself very well and has made a positive impression on West European tourists

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  146. On Ukraine and tradition. Recently on some other thread I joked about a preposterous statement by a Ukie lunatic saying that he/she/it likely learned geography in Ukrainian school. I did not even know how close to the literal truth I was.

    Ukrainian Ministry of education recommended geography handbook for the 8th grade (authors – Maslyak and Kapirulina) that states quite a few curious things. It claims that ancient Indian language Sanskrit is close to Ukrainian. It says that geographic names Galatea, Galilee, Gallia (France), Galicia in Spain, and even Portugal indicate that Jews, Turks, French, Spaniards, and Portuguese descended from migrants from Ukrainian Galicia. As a cherry on the cake, it claims that Russians, Belarusians, and Bulgarians are not Slavs.

    If you don’t believe me, you can see for yourself, just purchase this masterpiece here:
    https://4book.org/uchebniki-ukraina/8-klass/2312-geografiya-8-klas-maslyak-2016

    There are photos of relevant pages from it here:
    https://rusvesna.su/news/1589701270

    For those who read Russian or Ukrainian, here are the links to comments:
    https://www.ntv.ru/novosti/2053062/?utm_source=yxnews&utm_medium=desktop&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fyandex.ua%2Fnews

    In summary, if there were Madhouse Press, this handbook would have been its proud achievement.

    However, I would like to point out that not all Ukrainians are Ukies. One of the first people who poured ridicule on these ravings was Ukrainian journalist Manchuk.

    • Replies: @AP
  147. Mr. Hack says:
    @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    I’m sure that the Slovak girl in the photo would show you a fine time! 🙂

  148. Mr. Hack says:
    @another anon

    it is well known that AK sees Ukraine as rightful Russian land that will be reunited, sooner or later

    How’s this project coming along, anyway? It looks like it’ll be much longer from where I’m sitting. It couldn’t be done during Tsarist times, maybe some future oligarch will finish the job?…

  149. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Friendly reminder that AnoninTN is a gullible boomer who believes anything he reads online. For example he claimed this onion-esque joke cafe was real:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/iran-escalation/#comment-3273676

    Evidence:

    https://dyvys.info/2016/12/08/skandal-u-merezhi-chy-isnuye-persha/

    PR project for ad agency:

    https://zaxid.net/persha_lvivska_hvoydarnya_viyavilas_prproektom_reklamnogo_agentstva_n1412580

    He also claims some interesting things about the USA, where he has lived for 30 years:

    [MORE]

    “Funny when people who know nothing about the US use it as an example. There is NO official federal language in the US, period. NO official language in any state. ”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States#Official_language_status

    … 32 states of the United States, in some cases as part of what has been called the English-only movement, have adopted legislation granting official status to English.

    You live in Tennessee, one of the states that has English as an official language:

    http://www.languagepolicy.net/archives/tenn.htm

    English is hereby established as the official and legal language of Tennessee. All communications and publications, including ballots, produced by governmental entities in Tennessee shall be in English, and instruction in public schools and colleges of Tennessee shall be conducted in English unless the nature of the course would require otherwise.

    ttps://www.unz.com/akarlin/donbass-or-death/?highlight=cars#comment-2499199

    “Isn’t it curious that only Japanese (Toyota), Korean (Kia), and German (VW) cars are now assembled in the US, whereas “American” cars are now assembled in Mexico? ”

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/donbass-or-death/#comment-2499610

    Everybody assembles in Mexico, but very few assemble in the US. There are no American car makers among these few.

    Meanwhile in Tennessee:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_Hill_Manufacturing

    General Motors looks to expand the plant’s facilities and influence in the North American and Global Auto industries, and is currently the company’s largest plant in North America/

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  150. @AP

    I take it you have nothing to say on substance, relevant to this moronic handbook approved by equally moronic ministry of education. I would be surprised if you had.

    • Replies: @AP
  151. AP says:
    @Ano4

    Sure, everything bad that happens in Ukraine is Russians’ fault

    Is this different than Russians blaming the 90s on the West? Ukraine was, at least, actually ruled from Moscow for decades and inherited a ruling class who were those rulers’ locals proxies.

    Just like the Austro-Hungarian Empire did before 1918.

    Before 1918, Austrian-ruled Galicia may have been the most prosperous and educated region in the East Slavic world. Its serfs were emancipated about a generation earlier and it achieved full literacy of students a generation earlier than across the border.

    Nothing to do with 5 billion $ of US taxpayers’ money funneled into anti Russian propaganda since Ukrainian independence.

    This included all funds, including Chernobyl containment, hospitals, etc.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  152. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I would need to see it myself. As we have seen, you believe any nonsense written online so I won’t take your word for it or the word from the Russian nationalist blog you linked to.

    The excerpts from NTV ( a relatively legitimate news source) were not as bizarre as you claim them to be:

    https://www.ntv.ru/novosti/2053062/?utm_source=yxnews&utm_medium=desktop&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fyandex.ua%2Fnews

    The authors of the textbook argue that the Ukrainians gave the world “bread”, which now “feeds the whole world”, and “the most melodic folk songs in the world” – they are performed everywhere, “from Poland to Russia, from the USA to Japan.”

    :Well, agriculture was developed early in Ukraine and Ukraonians settled agricultural lands in Canada. Carol of the Bells is a beloved song known around the world.

    In addition, according to the authors, Ukrainians love space, so they “developed and implemented the theory of space flights.” “Our nation has given Wings to humanity,” say the creators of the textbook. Moreover, Sergey Korolev and Igor Sikorsky are called as examples of Ukrainians who gave the world “wings”.

    :Well, Korolyov was a Ukrainians, Sikorsky was not but he was from Ukraine.

    Overall, it’s patriotic boosterism for 8th graders, not fully accurate, but not as bizarre you you make it seem.

    Is the self-hatred in modern Western textbooks any better? That is much worse to do to one’s kids.

    I heard they will be teaching the infamous 1619 Project in American schools. Ukraine is far better than that, at least.

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
  153. @AP

    It’s the end of Soviet-era restrictions based on collective farms

    You are that clueless you don’t even know that majority of complaints about this illegal reform…. have been from West Ukrainians (from 90s era restrictions) you idiot!

    One of the key points of the anger to these laws is that it infringes on the myths of this artificial country about their “ancient” and special connection to their agricultural land, more so than any other country… “interrupted” by Russians/USSR and the “sacrilege” of this law.
    The one thing this law isn’t, is “anti-soviet” you dimwit

    like almost every other country, allows its citizens to sell land

    Errr… Slogan you have copy and pasted of the Internet with zero prior knowledge or interest in the law (and of course, language)

    Land still can’t be sold to foreigners

    LOL- absolutely nobody in Ukraine, even dumb, useless, US funded Galicians, believes that is the truth – the exact opposite of course, particularly as it is the whole point of these laws to get this foreign investment and ownership (except from Russians who, naturally in this bastard state, are the biggest FDI state in Banderastan) !

    The credibility of that BS lie becomes even less than zero when seeing near identical laws manipulated to the point that a load of bastard Americans, Lithuanians and Gruzian. citizens have been running the country, appointed to key positions in the last 5 years…… and this with, as is totally normal LOL, American Jew Vindman getting offered the job of ukrop Defence Minister, twice.

    It’s done solely for getting the IMF beggar credit you cretin. Ukrop corrupt elite couldn’t get it done based solely on their disastrous economic situation…. they have had to exploit the coronavirus situation to push it through, whilst the country is in lockdown. NOT because it is a domestic policy of ukrop government – Zelensky said nothing about it in his election campaign of course. Mentioned it when he got in power, then buried it….. then exploited the coronavirus for this already hopeless, foreign run experiment.

    I’m still getting over the laughter from your disastrous, cretinous “being born and raised in southern Ukraine does not make Poroshenko from South Ukraine” retard lie after myself and AnonFromTN exposed your nonsense yet again (fake arguments and zero ideas where anybody from Ukraine is, and where east and west are LOL), pathetic.

    • Replies: @AP
  154. AP says:
    @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    The one thing this law isn’t, is “anti-soviet”

    Freeing individuals to buy and sell farmland is anti-Soviet.

    Land still can’t be sold to foreigners

    LOL- absolutely nobody in Ukraine, even dumb, useless, US funded Galicians, believes that is the truth – the exact opposite of cours

    https://en.hromadske.ua/posts/the-who-what-when-and-how-much-of-ukraines-new-land-market-reform

    Who can buy, and who can’t

    Only Ukrainian citizens can buy agricultural land (during the first stage of the reform) and Ukrainian companies (form 2024 onwards.)

    Banks will also be able to own land, but only for short periods of time. Banks can seize land if it was seized as collateral for a loan. However, banks are required to sell any land obtained this way within a two year span at auction.

    Foreigners, people without citizenship, foreign companies, and companies whose ownership is impossible to determine (for example, shell companies registered in offshore zones) will not be able to purchase land.

    Only an all-Ukrainian referendum can allow foreigners to purchase Ukrainian agricultural land.

    being born and raised in southern Ukraine does not make Poroshenko from South Ukraine”

    Poroshenko was born in South Ukraine, spent part of his childhood in Moldova, but came to Kiev in 1982 at age seventeen and since that time has lived and built up his businesses in Kiev and Vynnytsia (in central-west Ukraine). He is not a Southern Ukrainian politician.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  155. Ano4 says:
    @AP

    Before 1918, Austrian-ruled Galicia may have been the most prosperous and educated region in the East Slavic world. Its serfs were emancipated about a generation earlier and it achieved full literacy of students a generation earlier than across the border.

    Before 1914 the whole of Ruthenia Halychina included, was the poorest region in the entire Europe driving hundreds of thousands of Ruthenian emigrants into exile.

    In Halychina proper, nearly 85% of the arable land belonged to Polish nobility or Jewish landowners making the Ruthenians indentured servants of these ethnic minorities.

    Poles in Lemberg actually did everything possible to prevent the Ruthenian population from living in the city.

    The Ruthenians were a minority of the Lemberg population.

    One should add to this grim description the continuous discrimination against the Orthodox Church to which a considerable proportion of the Ruthenian population still belonged in 1914 despite 500 years of religious oppression on the hands of the Roman Catholic church and their Uniate henchmen.

    During the WWI, the first concentration camp in Europe was built by Austro-Hungarian authorities to house Ruthenians who resisted the politics of Ukrainisation that were enforced by the Uniate Church and the political authorities.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalerhof_internment_camp

    • Replies: @AP
  156. @AP

    Not as bizarre as you make it seem

    “Ukrainians are Slavicised Germans”….. I don’t think even prisoners trying to get off execution anywhere on the planet by faking insanity have been able to come up with retardation as bizarre as that. A true life-saver of a statement

    Was it a case that you deliberately missed that out (no need, because everything else is equally stupid) because you are an insidious maniac?…….. or did you accidentally miss it out because you literally can’t speak a word of Russian, your Google translate stopped-and you are an insidious maniac?LOL

    The one bright spot that, though, atrocious,….. it’s nowhere near as bad as your Polish, Chechen, Austrian amalgamation cesspit identity that you have faked in your own head.

    Sikorsky was a member of Russian nationalist association in Kiev. Korolyov was Russian you idiot, in addition, given ukrop authorities paranoid lunatic sensitivity around Russian heritage and the banning of a multitude of things connected with the Soviet Union, and the paranoid lunatic mentality being the whole reason this disturbing textbook was produced in the first place…… to call this an attempt at playful Patriotic boosterism is idiotic in the extreme

    To use any of them would be like Nazi Germany shamelessly teaching their schoolchildren that Albert Einstein was a great German scientist.

    This is a fake state in which many of even the current Presidents films are banned too

    BTW….. where are the Galicians in this you pitiful maniac? LOL

    Ukrainians gave the world bread…. which now feeds the whole world….. Agriculture was developed early in Ukraine……..they settled agricultural lands in Canada

    China has rivers……. China gave rivers to the world. That is the level of cretin ism we are dealing with here. I won’t bother lowering my dignity with your “addition” to that already stupid point in the book. Needlessly to say even the potato is an entirely russian world phenomonen for ukrops

    Carols of the bells loved all over the world

    South Africa are going to be p”ssed off at not being able to claim – they have the “most melodic folk songs in the whole world” with ladysmith black mambozo, ukrop has the 758th most popular Christmas song in the world, an entirely Russian world one, composed by a guy trained in Russia, song originally promoted by Russia and reffered to as Russian by westerners for a century. But, OK, in a normal country that would be a normal proud, oatrioticything to include. I could see it being the only non-psycho point in the book, harmless, understandable….. if I hadn’t remembered that Ukraine banned itself from participating in the dumb, childish Euro vision Song contest (so perfect thing for kids to talk about) precisely because they were unable to find anyone in this “most melodic nation in world” without any good ties to Russia or refusing to tour there.

    Self-hatred in modern Western textbooks….. Ukraine is far better than that, at least

    LOL now you are into full occupying your non-life mode, drivel. “Slavicised Germans” , promoting Russian nationalists and the key guy in the greatest post-war achievement and good PR image in the name of the Soviet Union…. is as self-hateful and schizo as it gets.
    US and other western States can at least get their own countryman onto their banknotes LOL.

    • Replies: @AP
  157. AP says:
    @Ano4

    Before 1914 the whole of Ruthenia Halychina included, was the poorest region in the entire Europe driving hundreds of thousands of Ruthenian emigrants into exile.

    It was the poorest region in the Austrian part of Austria-Hungary (actually, tied with Dalmatia) and poorer than anywhere in northern or western Europe. But its was richer than the Russian Empire, the Balkans, and Portugal. It was about the same as Slovakia.

    In 1890 the per capita product, in 2010 dollars, for Galicia was $1,947 (it was actually lower in Ukraine in the 1990s)!

    At that time, it was higher than Portugal ($1,789), Bulgaria ($1,670), Greece ($1,550), Russia ($1,550), and Serbia ($1,295).

    Of course UK was $6,228.

    In Halychina proper, nearly 85% of the arable land belonged to Polish nobility or Jewish landowners

    Not all nobles were Polish.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_nobility_of_Galicia

    My great-grandparents had hundreds of acres of land outside Lviv. They were Russophiles and hosted Brusilov (or governor Bobrinsky, I’ve forgotten the detail) at their house during the Russian occupation. They were both almost shot when the Austrians returned.

    Poles in Lemberg actually did everything possible to prevent the Ruthenian population from living in the city.

    The Ruthenians were a minority of the Lemberg population.

    Yes, as they were in cities in the Russian Empire. Ukrainians were a rural people, like Finns, Balts, Slovaks. Ukrainians were a larger portion of Lemberg’s population than Lithuanians were of Vilnius or Slovaks of Pressburg. Kiev wasn’t much more Ukrainian than was Lemberg.

    One should add to this grim description the continuous discrimination against the Orthodox Church to which a considerable proportion of the Ruthenian population still belonged in 1914 despite 500 years of religious oppression on the hands of the Roman Catholic church and their Uniate henchmen.

    The Orthodox Church was fairly rare in Galicia and was often the Church of recent, pro-Russian, converts. The Uniate Church had become the national Church of those people.

    During the WWI, the first concentration camp in Europe was built by Austro-Hungarian authorities to house Ruthenians who resisted the politics of Ukrainisation that were enforced by the Uniate Church and the political authorities.

    One of my great-grandfathers ended up there as did numerous relatives. The victims were part of the approximately 10% minority of Galicians who were pro-Russian and suspected of supporting Russia while Austria was at war against Russia. One can’t blame the Austrian state for interring such people. About 30,000 people were interred. Death rate was about 10%; it was shut down by Karl I.

    • Replies: @Ano4
  158. AP says:
    @Ms Karlin-Gerard

    “Ukrainians are Slavicised Germans”

    It said “some German historians think”

    «Среди некоторых немецких историков бытует мнение, что украинцы являются славянизированными германцами.

    I guess you missed that because you don’t read Russian?

    Sikorsky was a member of Russian nationalist association in Kiev. Korolyov was Russian

    Yes, I said Sikorsky wasn’t Ukrainian.

    Koloyov was born in Zhytomir and raised in Ukraine. His mother was Ukrainian and his father was Russian, but his father abandoned him when he was little and he was raised by his Ukrainian family. He studied university in Kiev before transferring to Moscow.

    The bottom line is that Ukrainian kids are learning some glorifed history of their people while Western ones are learning that their history is evil and built on slavery, exploitation, etc.. Which is worse?

    • Replies: @Ms Karlin-Gerard
  159. Cyrano says:

    The gravest mistake that the Ukrainian nationalists make, is their belief that survivability of Ukraine depends on whether the Americans “love” them or not.

    Here is my take on the situation: Americans don’t love anybody. They are not in the business of “loving” people. They are in the business of using people. They call a big chunk of their own people “deplorables” – and they gonna love the Ukrainians?

    Sure, maybe if you put some more make-up in some strategic places, you might make yourselves more appealing to the Americans.

    The survivability of Ukraine – demographically, ethnographically and maybe even pornographically – depends on whether the Russians love you or not, not on some wet dreams of being love by the ones who don’t love anybody.

  160. @AP

    Only Ukrainian citizens can buy agricultural land (during the first stage of the reform) and Ukrainian companies (form 2024 onwards.)

    If you believe this, you are even dumber than I thought. The whole point of this law, which was demanded by IMF and pushed through by the parties of Porky and Soros-controlled clown (with vehement opposition from everybody else, even Timoshenko’s party) is to attract investment. Dirt-poor Mykolas and their cheap prostitute wives are not in the position to invest – they have nothing. However, they, and “Ukrainian” shell companies created for the purpose, would be “official” buyers for a small consideration, serving as fronts for real buyers who have real money, practically none of whom is from Ukraine.

    Only an all-Ukrainian referendum can allow foreigners to purchase Ukrainian agricultural land.

    Keep dreaming. They won’t need any referendum, they will buy Ukrainian lands at pennies per dollar, exhaust them in in a few years using cheap local labor, get a good return on their investments, and then abandon exhausted lands to the idiots who sold them.

    Anyway, Ukraine insists on committing suicide, so who am I to oppose it? RIP, non-brothers. As Russians joke now, it’s good that we are not brothers – we would be ashamed to have brothers like that.

  161. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    There I was praising AP’s optimism, and all you can come with are pointless pictures of urban human misery that any child can take in 5 minutes in literally any city in the world? Have you been to London, Paris, LA or New York? Have you seen Zurich street kids shooting it up? You need to do better.

    You miss my point about doom and gloom: timing in life matters and Ukraine is about to mis-time its journey to Europe by a few decades. We are all about to see a major economic retrenchment, but not all of us have been anticipating a major EU aid and support. That’s the tragedy in Ukraine, and yes, they will eat well, it is a rich land. They might even make some pocket change by selling their youth, their women, to creepy foreigners. But how is that ‘Europe’? You might as well live in Guatemala or Philippines.

  162. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Well if you disagree with Karlin completely, you should probably close the browser and just go to different blogger. However, he doesn’t have such option to easily change his readers – so readers who stay with a blogger for a long time, should make effort to be supportive and polite of their chosen blogger (as football fans who choose a team to watch every week).

    As for the actual situation around this:

    1. Surrogacy is an arrangement to help women who couldn’t succeed to become pregnant, to still have children. It’s difficult to present this as “immoral” – considering its helping people to form a family, and that a large proportion of surrogate mothers in the West are even working without payment (i.e. some women enjoy to be surrogate mothers or think it is rewarding).

    2. Surrogacy corresponds to natalism policies, which is usually supported on this forum.

    3. There is no evidence surrogacy, would reduce fertility rate of the surrogate mother in having their own children (possibly the opposite), and statistically it will be impossible to achieve an effect on national birthrates in either direction (it seems like around 1 in 100000 women are working as a surrogate mother in a particular year).

    4. “Moral reasoning” of the advanced countries like Sweden, Finland, Germany, et al – to ban surrogacy, is from the feminist view that it could create commercial arrangements relating to women’s bodies. This is ironic, considering their policy to ban surrogacy in their home countries, is the reason their citizens are responsible for the surrogacy tourism to Russia, Ukraine, Thailand, et al – where the legal regime for surrogacy is liberal. In other words, these countries have “offshored” surrogacy to countries with less strict regulation.

    5. Criticizing surrogacy tourism to Ukraine, is not useful from a Kremlinbot perspective, as Ukraine just recently copy-pasted the surrogacy tourism industry from Russia. Moreover, law in surrogacy (and surrogacy tourism) is more strict in Ukraine than in Russia.

    Russia has maybe the world’s most liberal regulation in relation to surrogacy and surrogacy tourism – as the parents of the surrogate child can even use gametes which have no connection to either parent. There should be an adjustment to less liberal laws in Russia, as this latter (being able to create a surrogate baby with gametes that have connection to neither parent), is moving away from helping parent’s with fertility difficulties, to something more like allowing the creation of “designer babies”.

    Ukraine has a slightly less liberal regulation around surrogacy than Russia. However, with low state capacity in Ukraine, it’s natural to be skeptical they successfully enforce laws.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  163. @AP

    LOL – because you have no knowledge, Language ability to fall on….. BS, misplaced pedantic and further lies are all you can do.

    “Among a few German historians” is done to give this despicable retard theory some respectability you idiot.
    Of course that’s because even the dumbest US funded Banderetard “historian” wouldn’t risk their career by putting their name on this psychopathy. Maybe you can petition them to put “a few Russian” or polish historians, lol?

    “Slavicised Germans” LOL WTF? My suspects for this BS are:

    1.Austrian secret service of 1920’s
    2. You, occupying your non-life with Wikipedia edits that ukrop education department got tricked by ( most likely scenario)
    3. The “a few German historians” is in fact this nobody, oligarch prostitute PM, Denis Schmigl. I thought there was another Lev Bronstein thing going on there, maybe I was wrong and it’s all German.

    As for it being some friendly, harmless thing for the children – because you have no knowledge of Ukraine or its education system, you don’t know of the many famous mathematicians, composers, scientists, actors etc. who have effectively been erased due to this paranoid Nazi security state. I could go on- but can’t be bothered.

    BTW, Karlin, why for this clown does the 3 comments limit not seem to apply?

  164. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Moscow is hardworking

    Moscow is the centre of sexual liberals and sexual minorities in Russia, and yet it has one of the lowest HIV rates in the country.

    things are connected to moral virtues

    In complicated ways which perhaps great philosophers and writers can elaborate, at least in their fictional situations and characters – and omniscient God, or wise Gods, could judge; not people who try to infer them simplistically from HIV rates in different regions. And with latter, especially since HIV rates seem to be inversely correlated in many of the most “morally loose” – in conventional meaning of these words – areas of the world.

  165. Ano4 says:
    @AP

    Interesting.

    Thanks.

  166. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    I feel that you’re overreacting in response to my negative comments to Karlin within this thread. I’ve also been complimentary here too, but it looks like you’ve somehow missed those remarks in your haste to somehow try and lecture me about civil discourse.

    I couldn’t disagree with you more when you try to draw and analogy between the “Karlin brand” as a blogger of Russian information and a sports team that draws fans of many different stripes that become fans that are loyal to their team, no matter what. If you can’t see the difference between a blog, such as the one created here and a club of loyal and often brainless cheerleaders for a sports team, well then we have a sharp difference of perspective.

    An interesting blog should allow its followers to express their opinions even if they differ markedly from the author of the blog. I’ve always tried to show respect for Karlin and follow the loose and generally gently applied rules that he’s put forth to help keep things running smoothly here. With close to 4,000 comments made herein, I’ve only been warned once to limit the “srach” and tone things down. I’m sure that I haven’t broken any records in this regard.

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