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There’s a good chance aliens exist, perhaps including in our galaxy. However, there are reasons – the Dark Forest theory, the Katechon Hypothesis – for why we should expect them to be paranoid about being detected.

In contrast, MIC shilling can be rather open.

It is curious that there’s no media denunciation of this, as is typical with many other conspiracy theories. Public bravado and Woke Mil grandstanding, Chinese military spending is rapidly catching up to the US while PPP-adjusted procurement spending has probably already flipped it as of this year. However, admission and public discussion of this is a no go area, as it challenges the US image of itself as absolute military hegemon. But xenos are a different matter.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. Used to be a very mild cryptid enthusiast when I was about ten, but that was probably because my school did not stock HBD books. Never was crazy enough to believe in UFOs.

    The big question is whether it fits into the diversity rhetoric (“we are all human”) or whether it is because they are so cucked that they want to be dominated by aliens.

    I think also secularization, increasing mutational load, and dysgenics are factors.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @songbird

    In the USSR, the UFO topic seemed to become public in the late 1960s, while in the USA it was already an important part of the 1950s popular culture.

    A main promoter of the UFO topic in the USSR was probably Feliks Zigel.

    You can see an article Feliks Zigel published for the international audience, in "Soviet Life" magazine, of 1968.

    Soviet UFO interest, was perhaps around a decade behind the American one, where the "UFO mania" is associated with the culture of the 1950s.


    https://i.imgur.com/ieKzkUy.png


    https://i.imgur.com/l1Fvcxk.png


    https://i.imgur.com/PkbSOvF.png

    https://i.imgur.com/7kw55m3.png

    Replies: @songbird

  3. UFO topic has been an interesting debate for decades, and there are all kinds of stories and myths, from the Soviet Union, from America and from Europe. In 1959, the topic was important enough, that the psychologist (Freud’s most famous pupil) Carl Jung has published a book on it, claiming that the UFO was a projection of the self that we have lost connection to in modern times.

    But today’s news-consuming or politics-consuming public, seems to be a little uninterested in UFOs.

    News-consuming people today seem to show primarily interest in topics which can be given a partisan aspect, as that allows the story to be related to their sense of personal identity, and the mental conflicts they have already invested in.

    In the American context, if UFOs were involved in opposing “Merry Christmas”, then the Fox News viewers would become emotionally interested in this topic.

    Whereas if the UFO story could be presented as related to Trump supporters, or part of the Russian hacking conspiracy, then the CNN viewers will inevitably become interested.

    One of the criticisms of modern culture, is that we are supposed to have a short attention span, and change our interest from one minute to an other. But problem can be more like the opposite: that the news fans have to be slowly fixated and emotionally invested into a topic over many years, and the interest is only “fired” when it is presented in relation to a rival side, as that strikes their sense of personal or tribal identity.

    Therefore, that mask-wearing became somehow tied to right-wing in the United States during the 2020 coronavirus pandemic. And in response, the left-wing Americans, including much of the country’s media, have become interested in wearing masks. (Yet when we look at videos from CNN, et al, of early 2020, they were also opposing the wearing of masks).

    Only when the topic of mask-wearing could be inserted into America’s pre-existing telenovela or family argument, could it generate serious interest.

    • Replies: @nosquat loquat
    @Dmitry

    I agree, but the idiotic partisanship becomes dangerous when it involves health issues. For example, Trump's initial interest in hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin was due to his learning of the success of French doctor and clinician, Didier Raoult, in treating early Covid patients with them. But as the media establishment associated the issue with Trump, any mention of the treatment was ridiculed by all those who "knew better" and thus deprived people not only of an effective treatment, but of an alternative to vaccination, which was probably the agenda behind the media blitz in the first place.

    It is a sick affair, all round, and the events of the Trump years, coupled with the Covid scam, have succeeded in herding Americans--a great many of whom in the late Naughts had, after it was clear that Obama was a continuation of Bush, come to the realization that the left/right divide was fake and that two-party partisanism a thing of the past--back into their mindless "red" and "blue" stables.

    May they perish in the sh*t endlessly piling up in those precincts...

  4. @songbird
    Used to be a very mild cryptid enthusiast when I was about ten, but that was probably because my school did not stock HBD books. Never was crazy enough to believe in UFOs.

    The big question is whether it fits into the diversity rhetoric ("we are all human") or whether it is because they are so cucked that they want to be dominated by aliens.

    I think also secularization, increasing mutational load, and dysgenics are factors.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    In the USSR, the UFO topic seemed to become public in the late 1960s, while in the USA it was already an important part of the 1950s popular culture.

    A main promoter of the UFO topic in the USSR was probably Feliks Zigel.

    You can see an article Feliks Zigel published for the international audience, in “Soviet Life” magazine, of 1968.

    Soviet UFO interest, was perhaps around a decade behind the American one, where the “UFO mania” is associated with the culture of the 1950s.

    • Thanks: El Dato
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Dmitry

    Wow, thanks! That was really interesting - firstly, I never knew that the USSR put out an English language magazine. I've just been reading about it: part of a bilateral agreement, where America simultaneously put out a magazine in the USSR. As part of the agreement, both magazines were initially restricted to only a circulation of 30,000.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Life

    Very tangential, but sci-fi author Arthur C. Clarke had his sequel novel 2010, which involves aliens, serialized in a Soviet popular mag, but he secretly made the names of his characters into Soviet dissidents, and so they dropped the later installments, but were forced to print a short summery, due to fan support.
    https://www.rbth.com/history/331258-arthur-clarke-ussr-soviet-scifi

    I don't know if it is just a bias of perspective that I have, being in large part ignorant of other cultures, but it seems to me that during the Cold War, the Anglosphere had a special kind of mania for crazy phenomenon, including UFOs. Clarke himself, who some credit with coming up with the idea of the communication satellites, hosted a TV show, where there were interviews of English people who claimed that it rained frogs one day.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke%27s_Mysterious_World#The_Journey_Begins..._%E2%80%93_2_September_1980

    Perhaps, it was all an early sign of wokeness? The ability of crazy ideas to spread and be promoted on the back of capitalism? A kind of network effect of communications before the internet? (testable with ngrams?)

    I had been thinking that the Soviet Union being very secular, and, having similar wide open spaces like the US (which I view as the center of UFO mania), might have been especially susceptible to UFO mania, but that they lacked the commercial apparatus - the gift shops, the Hollywood productions, the comic books, the free press to popularize it to its full potential.

    Replies: @Servant of Gla'aki

  5. UFOs are like SETI: both depend on a 1950s mentality about technological change.

    Any civilisation that develops interplanetary flight, must necessarily first develop generalised computing.

    Generalised computing advances very quickly (at least exponentially, and perhaps in a ‘punctuated double-exponential’ fashion). Thus generalised (strong) AI will predictably happen within relatively few biological lifespans after the development of generalised computing.

    Once a society/civilisation achieves strong AI, it makes ZERO sense to send meatbags across interplanetary space… and even less sense to send meatbags across interstellar or intergalactic space. Most of the cost of manned space missions, is developing and furnishing a housing for the meatbags that will enable the meatbags to survive the launch and the trip.

    By contrast to generalised computing, meatbags evolve slowly – and retain shitty characteristics over very long spans of biological generations. The shitty characteristics with regard to interstellar space flight are things like
    – requirements for food, water, breathable gases, rest and waste disposal;
    – vulnerability outside of very narrow ranges of temperature/humidity/radiation/gas mix/impact-shock;
    – built-in degradation (i.e., short lifespans relative to the length of journey).

    So… it can be concluded a priori that any interstellar visitors to our little wet ball of rock, will arrive as strong AI ‘virtual personalities’ housed in radiation-powered nano-scale devices. They will only need to be O(2) (max 4) biological generations more advanced than the current level of technology in the West, to have the technological prowess to do so.

    And they will be as undetectable to us, as viruses were to the average OrthoHeeb rabbi in a hovel in the 19th century Pale of Settlement.

    Anyone who can’t grok that, does not have the cognitive wherewithal to chide anybody about reluctance to participate in the current global vaccine trial.

    • Replies: @mal
    @Kratoklastes


    Any civilisation that develops interplanetary flight, must necessarily first develop generalised computing.
     
    Not necessarily. I mean, pigeons build and operate highly advanced quantum computers for navigation purposes (we still don't understand exactly how they work, but basic idea boils down to pigeons visualizing planetary magnetic field lines by counting the distribution of quantum entangled electron spin numbers). Here is an article that describes the idea:
    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/birds-quantum-entanglement/

    This tech is far more advanced than anything humans have ever invented. I mean, to this day we don't understand how it works. And i would say its specialized rather than generalized. And supply chain for those pigeon computers is mostly local unlike human tech which literally requires an entire planet to take part in its creation (silicon metal from Brasil, refineries in US and Japan, conductors sourced in Europe etc).

    Earth is weird in a sense that it has high gravity and from evolutionary point of view of multicellular organism it is too costly and not worth it to go to space. But of course, such limitations would not apply to life evolving in the depths of liquid oceans in some moon systems out there.

    So if for Earth, evolutionarily speaking, top technology would be planetary navigation based on pigeon quantum computers, such limitation would not apply to other more permissive environments. Due to lower delta v requirements, moon systems will favor evolving life with far greater technological adaptations than Earth based pigeons. No need for staging means interplanetary travel is possible and relatively easy.

    So i can see moon ocean alien squids evolving quantum entanglement based sensors first, like the pigeons, and then extending technogical leaps even further beyond our human understanding. And becoming interstellar species in the process.

    Replies: @Sick of Orcs, @S, @S

    , @El Dato
    @Kratoklastes

    See also Greg Egan's novel "Diaspora", where most of the population is running on extremely evolved underground BezosBunkers with only a remainder of fleshers still living aboveground.

    How do ensure your security & privacy on a server farm that runs you? An interesting problem, one would have to achieve mandatory pervasive libertarianism first and/or have a REALLY good operating system.

    In the end, the main protagonists manage to travel through through the russian doll structure of universes, but copying themselves from one universe to the next through a noisy channel buried inside each subatomic particle, and they are "online" for one tick whenever a copy has been finished.

    Once you have coma that far, what remains to be done? You have two avenues: either suicide or the joy of digging for new theorems in abstract mathematics. The End.

    I can also recommend:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Names_(2008_story)
    https://archive.org/details/TrueNames

    by Cory Doctorow and Benjamin Rosenbaum

    which is actually great fun.

    It starts like this:

    Beebe fried the asteroid to slag when it left, exterminating millions of itself.

    The asteroid was a high-end system: a kilometer-thick shell of femtoscale crystalline lattices, running cool at five degrees Kelvin, powered by a hot core of fissiles. Quintillions of qubits, loaded up with powerful utilities and the canonical release of Standard Existence. Room for plenty of Beebe.

    But it wasn't safe anymore.

    The comet Beebe was leaving on was smaller and dumber. Beebe spun itself down to its essentials. The littler bits of it cried and pled for their favorite toys and projects. A collection of civilization-jazz from under a thousand seas; zettabytes of raw atmosphere-dynamics data from favorite gas giants; ontological version control data in obsolete formats; a slew of favorite playworlds; reams of googly-eyed intraself love letters from a hundred million adolescences. It all went.

     

    Oh, hooked.

    Replies: @S

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Kratoklastes

    Quotes where I chided anyone for not taking vaccines, or said or even implied that visiting aliens must necessarily be meatbags.

    , @Eugene Norman
    @Kratoklastes


    Once a society/civilisation achieves strong AI, it makes ZERO sense to send meatbags across interplanetary space…
     
    Don’t see why the AI isn’t travelling across space, though.

    AI is not inevitable. Since computers started it’s been predicted in the next generation. Hollywood is all over this from HAL on. And we have Siri.

    If anything the rate of change of computing power is slowing and computing power isn’t enough anyway. To create a conscious machine we have to understand consciousness.

    Replies: @Wency

    , @Joe Paluka
    @Kratoklastes

    Interstellar travel distances will be overcome by the creation of a localized time-space that would surround the vehicle that you would be travelling in. That localized section of time-space would then be travelling at light speed or higher and the person travelling in the localized time space would be on earth time and would age at the same rate as on earth. The journey to other stars would take mere days as far as the earth person would be concerned .

    , @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    @Kratoklastes

    Extrapolating from our limited understanding and filling in the blanks with conjecture about what a hyper advanced society "must necessarily" be like is very trite and unconvincing.

    It always takes the form of:

    I. Any society capable of X will be maximally efficient (obviously false)

    II. Y behaviour is maximally efficient (unproveable and contingent on arbitrary metrics)

    III. Therefore any society capable of X will do Y (dumb!)

    But this is also compounded by taking for granted that speculative technologies just will be "certainly" invented. Just imagine yourself in 1850 speculating on what a society that could edit genes (or any other modern wondertech) would be like, why any society that advanced would certainly be a veritable utopia which had solved all social ills and completely eliminated industrial inefficiency!

  6. Funny how UFOs became a notable phenomenon right around when planes, rockets, and weather balloons became widespread. Today, we have RCs added to that list. As camera resolution grows, UFOs should become easier to identify.

    In any case, if aliens visited Earth, it would be patently obvious, observable by numerous telescopes, satellites, etc.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
    @E. Harding


    Funny how UFOs became a notable phenomenon right around when planes, rockets, and weather balloons became widespread.
     
    No, that's a misconception. There was a big wave of "airship" sightings in the 1880s and 1890s, peaking in 1896-97, but continuing into the early 20th century.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_airship

    Additionally, there are ancient reports of "flying shields" and other such oddities.


    The year is 329 B.C. Alexander the Great is leading his army on a quest to conquer the known world. As he is preparing his army to cross the Indus River to attack the Indian Army, Alexander and all his troops watch in awe as two “great shining silvery shields spitting fire around the rims” seem to emerge from the heavens. These two “shields” dive repeatedly at his army until the war elephants, horses, and men all panicked and refused to cross the river where the horrendous incident occurred. The two “flying shields” disappeared into the sky as quickly as they had appeared.
     
    https://www.123helpme.com/essay/Alexander-the-Great-222118

    Indeed, “flying shields” appear in the ancient folklore of many people, including the American Hopi tribe, and flying objects called vimanas appear in ancient Hindu texts.

    https://runelore.it/en/world-news/791-ufo-shields-hopi.html

    And what really happened at Fatima in 1917?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

    In truth there are many mysteries of the universe, but if you want to set yourself up for ridicule, study or interest in UFOs will get you there.

    Religion is OK of course, because Jesus. I think one recent poll showed over 70% of Americans believe in angels.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-nearly-8-in-10-americans-believe-in-angels/

    I try to keep an open mind and agnostic attitude based on my assumption that our ignorance exceeds our knowledge about the universe and the purpose of life, and my belief that H. sapiens is not a good candidate for being the preeminent sapient species in the universe.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    @E. Harding


    As camera resolution grows, UFOs should become easier to identify.
     
    It is incredible to me that, with the enormously improved and powerful imaging technology available in 2021, it is seemingly impossible for anyone out there to capture UFO images that are orders of magnitude better than those captured in the '70s and '80s.
  7. You guys are coping and scared shitless. The “UFOs” are extremely advanced US time dilation technology that can destroy anything China/Russia has. That’s why they’re slowly “revealing” them as Russia shows off its primitive propellant based rockets.

    Tbe USA probably has a military alliance with whatever extraterestrial society it got the technology from. Meaning that US global hegemony is a done permanent deal.

    • Thanks: mal
    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @JohnPlywood

    Nice thing piling more speculation on top of established speculation.

    , @Mulga Mumblebrain
    @JohnPlywood

    UFOs can't be true because any technologically and morally advanced civilization would reach for the galactic insect repellent on first viewing US politics and culture on radio and TV broadcasts.

    Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected

    , @Pericles
    @JohnPlywood

    In fact developed in SUPER TOP SECRET clearance by Kangz. Project Pyramid.

    , @Sinotibetan
    @JohnPlywood

    Indeed! Why do you think the American ruling elites believe in USA exceptionalism? Not only was there a transfer of advanced technology from these UFO denizens to the American ruling elites, they even transfer ideas of a superior civilization - stuff like LBGTQ(RSTU....Z?), anti-racism, one world government ...Unfortunately these American ruling elites got conned thinking these aliens came in peace . They didn't realize they are like the Borg , they plan to assimilate humans into their borg-like life-forms. Some of the American elites anti-human behaviour meant they are actually aliens who look human by phenotypic mimicry. They cannot have humans procreate and start to become rebellious so that's why they come up with LBGTQ....Z? moreover , the Aliens' main objectives are to use up the Earth's resources and ultimately eat up all the humans before they go on to a wormhole and on to another parallel universe , repeating the whole process in a parallel earth. It's ad infinitum.....

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @JohnPlywood

    Powerful!

    , @Boomthorkell
    @JohnPlywood

    Unlikely it's time dilation technology. Entirely likely it's some form of free-energy/gravity motor. Quite probably so, though, who's to say no one else hasn't as well?

    America was also the first to nuclear weapons (well, in using them), but that Technological Hegemony didn't last long. It's more likely they are torn between showing evidence of technology, and Russia and China immediately emulating the designs/developing their own and reaching parity and the population wondering why they had not benefited from this amazing technology, or keeping it secret and being fully shamed as the Hegemony weakens.

    If this isn't the case, then hilarity ensues as America's empire loses to Hypersonic missiles, railroads, new port infrastructure, and being so terminally gay (pozzed?) it ruins its own special forces.

    Nothing is permanent.

  8. LinkBookmarkThere’s a good chance aliens exist, perhaps including in our galaxy. However, there are reasons – the Dark Forest theory, the Katechon Hypothesis – for why we should expect them to be paranoid about being detected.

    This has always seemed extremely doubtful to me. But an interesting point, I wonder how many people exist, who both don’t believe in God OR aliens? In other words, a blunt acceptance that we are almost certainly the *only* intelligent life in the universe, that *has* ever existed, and likely ever *will* exist?
    The number must be vanishingly, microscopically small.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Yevardian


    But an interesting point, I wonder how many people exist, who both don’t believe in God OR aliens? In other words, a blunt acceptance that we are almost certainly the *only* intelligent life in the universe, that *has* ever existed, and likely ever *will* exist?
    The number must be vanishingly, microscopically small.
     
    Well there's me. Maybe I'm the only one?
    , @Abelard Lindsey
    @Yevardian


    But an interesting point, I wonder how many people exist, who both don’t believe in God OR aliens?
     
    I'm one of these.

    I don't believe in any of the religions/gods and I think the emergence of the Eukayote was such a singularly rare event that it happened only once in our galaxy and possibly the universe.

    https://nick-lane.net/books/power-sex-suicide-mitochondria-meaning-life/

    Replies: @Sinotibetan

    , @Stan D Mute
    @Yevardian


    how many people exist, who both don’t believe in God OR aliens? In other words, a blunt acceptance that we are almost certainly the *only* intelligent life in the universe, that *has* ever existed, and likely ever *will* exist?
     
    I would hope that the number is vanishingly small - if one subscribes to the knowledge our species has acquired, it’s virtually inevitable that intelligent life has evolved somewhere somewhen.

    The critical shortcoming in almost all human thought is the human time scale.

    We are like fireflies trying to define the meaning of the buglight..
  9. Four videos, all from the MIC, all “real”, all “leaked”.
    All from infrared sensors.
    All off the coast of California.

    Not one is a Mk1 eyeball observation.

    If Americans go full arms-race over a bloated fly stuck between pressure plates, a refraction from a distant passenger plane, a meteorite entering the atmosphere on a wide trajectory, and a peregrine falcon then god help us all.

    UFO? More like poor maintenance. Corrective measures towards service crew is required. Not photon torpedoes.

    I can only imagine this to be part of the same CIA program that pushed the flat earth BS online to discredit any form of discussions towards conspiracies.

    “You know that alt-media, with its flat earth and aliens and JFK assassinations, don’t listen to the crazies. Stay on CNN.”

    Even the pilots who claim to have observed a UAO/whatever visually (not through IR or radar echoes) have direct links to organizations or projects that involve military research or UFO study.

    However, admission and public discussion of this is a no go area, as it challenges the US image of itself as absolute military hegemon. But xenos are a different matter.

    The US demonized the Soviet Union to god-like power. US media is strong enough to link these videos (and covid-19 too, why not) to the growing Chinese military, that must be met with $3 trillion dollar budget. When asked how they got so advanced the typical American line is “oh they stole that tech from us”.

    BAM! Biden should hire me to bullshit for him.

    • Replies: @Abelard Lindsey
    @Max Payne

    Good point!

    I was wondering if other people (e.g. Chinese military, Russians, etc.) were also seeing these UFO's or if it was only our military that was seeing them.

    I read somewhere on the net that they began seeing these UFO's after they upgraded their radar/IR hardware in their planes.

    Replies: @Max Payne

  10. S says:

    There’s a good chance aliens exist, perhaps including in our galaxy.

    I think they probably exist, too.

    What’s concerning to me is the context and timing of the recent announcements by the US government about UFO’s. I include in my skepticism the ‘crop circle phenomena’ of the UK of the past few decades as well.

    There were multiple sci-fi TV episodes back in the 60’s in the US that had ‘progressive’ scientists faking UFO alien contact/invasions to help in ‘unifying the Earth’…for ‘everyone’s good’ naturally. One of these sci-fi tv prog scientists, pretending to be an alien, wound up being mistaken as a bear by a rural hunter in upstate New York and fatally shot. I suppose there’s a message in there somewhere.

    Ronald Reagan gave a speech to the UN suggesting how unifying to the world it would be if an alien invasion took place, almost as if he was wishing it would happen.

    There are those on this Earth who will say, do, or attempt anything, to achieve ever more wealth and power.

    • Agree: Yellowface Anon
    • Replies: @Realist
    @S

    See my comment #33

    Replies: @S

    , @Sick 'n Tired
    @S

    Alex Jones has been talking about human hybrid Chimeras for quite some time. Where labs were combining humans with pigs. Take a couple of these hybrids, put them in a fake UFO and drop it from the air around a city and let it crash. With today's cell phone technology, the video would go viral in seconds, and people would think aliens exist and willingly give up whatever freedom they have left to the government. This is why they have been planting these stories in the media for the last year or so.

    Replies: @S

  11. I have read a fair bit about Roswell, and neither DoD nor the scientists can offer a believable alternative to “a flying saucer crashed”. Perhaps the biggest stumbling block is that trivial facts about reports from 1947 are still classified, and when President Carter asked to see the stuff BEHIND Project Blue Book, Carter was told he didn’t have a “need to know”.

    That is, if we’re just talking about weather balloons for a dead end spy project, what is more secret about the “weather balloons” than that they existed, but the project was silly. Among other things, no “weather balloon” could have survived a flight across the Atlantic. And so any real spy balloons would have been launched from Turkey or Finland.

    But I wander. DoD still chases UFOs all over the world, and then marks the reports SECRET. At the same time, NASA wants us to believe that there is life, especially INTELLIGENT life, in outer space. NASA offers no EVIDENCE for what is their RELIGIOUS belief in little green men who do NOT travel in flying saucers.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @VR O'Mahony


    when President Carter asked to see the stuff BEHIND Project Blue Book, Carter was told he didn’t have a “need to know”
     
    Source?
  12. S says:

    Could be, too, that any aliens out there may have some sort of ‘prime directive’ in effect, forbidding interference in other species development.

    Speaking of which, how many noticed the similarities between the US Space Force symbol and the Star Trek symbol for the United Federation of Planets (UFP)?

    The old 1960’s Star Trek series was simply an ideolized ‘progressive’ projection of how they think the United States will evolve in two hundred years. The star ships are simply interstellar ‘aircraft carrier’ like projections of power, complete with the same names in certain instances. NASA has evolved into the United Earth Space Agency. The global capital is at the Presidio, San Francisco, in the old US.

    • Replies: @A123
    @S

    The new Space Force logo is derived from the Air Force Space Command logo and a NASA logo (1)

     
    https://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Logo-mashup.png
     

    The creators of Star Trek used a NASA logo in their Starfleet iconography.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.universetoday.com/144779/okay-this-logo-proves-that-space-force-should-have-really-been-called-star-fleet/

  13. @E. Harding
    Funny how UFOs became a notable phenomenon right around when planes, rockets, and weather balloons became widespread. Today, we have RCs added to that list. As camera resolution grows, UFOs should become easier to identify.

    In any case, if aliens visited Earth, it would be patently obvious, observable by numerous telescopes, satellites, etc.

    Replies: @Sparkon, @The Wild Geese Howard

    Funny how UFOs became a notable phenomenon right around when planes, rockets, and weather balloons became widespread.

    No, that’s a misconception. There was a big wave of “airship” sightings in the 1880s and 1890s, peaking in 1896-97, but continuing into the early 20th century.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_airship

    Additionally, there are ancient reports of “flying shields” and other such oddities.

    The year is 329 B.C. Alexander the Great is leading his army on a quest to conquer the known world. As he is preparing his army to cross the Indus River to attack the Indian Army, Alexander and all his troops watch in awe as two “great shining silvery shields spitting fire around the rims” seem to emerge from the heavens. These two “shields” dive repeatedly at his army until the war elephants, horses, and men all panicked and refused to cross the river where the horrendous incident occurred. The two “flying shields” disappeared into the sky as quickly as they had appeared.

    https://www.123helpme.com/essay/Alexander-the-Great-222118

    Indeed, “flying shields” appear in the ancient folklore of many people, including the American Hopi tribe, and flying objects called vimanas appear in ancient Hindu texts.

    https://runelore.it/en/world-news/791-ufo-shields-hopi.html

    And what really happened at Fatima in 1917?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

    In truth there are many mysteries of the universe, but if you want to set yourself up for ridicule, study or interest in UFOs will get you there.

    Religion is OK of course, because Jesus. I think one recent poll showed over 70% of Americans believe in angels.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-nearly-8-in-10-americans-believe-in-angels/

    I try to keep an open mind and agnostic attitude based on my assumption that our ignorance exceeds our knowledge about the universe and the purpose of life, and my belief that H. sapiens is not a good candidate for being the preeminent sapient species in the universe.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Sparkon


    https://www.123helpme.com/essay/Alexander-the-Great-222118
     
    This appears to be a link to a child's short essay for school. I am confused

    Replies: @Sparkon

  14. @Dmitry
    @songbird

    In the USSR, the UFO topic seemed to become public in the late 1960s, while in the USA it was already an important part of the 1950s popular culture.

    A main promoter of the UFO topic in the USSR was probably Feliks Zigel.

    You can see an article Feliks Zigel published for the international audience, in "Soviet Life" magazine, of 1968.

    Soviet UFO interest, was perhaps around a decade behind the American one, where the "UFO mania" is associated with the culture of the 1950s.


    https://i.imgur.com/ieKzkUy.png


    https://i.imgur.com/l1Fvcxk.png


    https://i.imgur.com/PkbSOvF.png

    https://i.imgur.com/7kw55m3.png

    Replies: @songbird

    Wow, thanks! That was really interesting – firstly, I never knew that the USSR put out an English language magazine. I’ve just been reading about it: part of a bilateral agreement, where America simultaneously put out a magazine in the USSR. As part of the agreement, both magazines were initially restricted to only a circulation of 30,000.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Life

    Very tangential, but sci-fi author Arthur C. Clarke had his sequel novel 2010, which involves aliens, serialized in a Soviet popular mag, but he secretly made the names of his characters into Soviet dissidents, and so they dropped the later installments, but were forced to print a short summery, due to fan support.
    https://www.rbth.com/history/331258-arthur-clarke-ussr-soviet-scifi

    [MORE]

    I don’t know if it is just a bias of perspective that I have, being in large part ignorant of other cultures, but it seems to me that during the Cold War, the Anglosphere had a special kind of mania for crazy phenomenon, including UFOs. Clarke himself, who some credit with coming up with the idea of the communication satellites, hosted a TV show, where there were interviews of English people who claimed that it rained frogs one day.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke%27s_Mysterious_World#The_Journey_Begins…_%E2%80%93_2_September_1980

    Perhaps, it was all an early sign of wokeness? The ability of crazy ideas to spread and be promoted on the back of capitalism? A kind of network effect of communications before the internet? (testable with ngrams?)

    I had been thinking that the Soviet Union being very secular, and, having similar wide open spaces like the US (which I view as the center of UFO mania), might have been especially susceptible to UFO mania, but that they lacked the commercial apparatus – the gift shops, the Hollywood productions, the comic books, the free press to popularize it to its full potential.

    • Replies: @Servant of Gla'aki
    @songbird


    Clarke himself, who some credit with coming up with the idea of the communication satellites, hosted a TV show, where there were interviews of English people who claimed that it rained frogs one day.
     
    It's not really controversial that this happens. It is presumably some uncatalogued meteorological phenomenon, likely related to water spouts, or something similar. About a century ago, a frozen-solid alligator fell to Earth in Massachusetts. It's most definitely a thing. But probably not a particularly mysterious one, albeit still technically unexplained.

    Replies: @songbird

  15. USA and UK seem to be particularly obsessed about UFOs.

    • Thanks: S
    • Replies: @S
    @Shortsword


    USA and UK seem to be particularly obsessed about UFOs.
     
    Yes, and prior to that obsession there was the 19th century obsession with ghosts and 'spirits' (ie spiritualism), in what some describe as an 'occult revolution'. Some have noted a certain overlap between spiritualists and the 'UFO community'.

    The timing of these events is interesting as it occurred roughly just as the US/UK were achieving global hegemony status with their 'special relationship' circa 1900.

    Replies: @El Dato

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Shortsword

    Thanks. Contrary to the "encounter on a lonesome road" stereotype, that visualization certainly suggests that the UFO phenomenon is almost perfectly correlated with population centers (also with English-speaking population centers, but I think that is just because the data source is a US-based English language organization).

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Shortsword

    , @songbird
    @Shortsword


    USA and UK seem to be particularly obsessed about UFOs.
     
    To a certain extent, I would extend it to Australia and Canada. Australia, I believe, was where the idea of crop circles originated - it was reeds and sugarcane, before it was corn.

    It is my theory that the Anglosphere had a special network effect that encouraged "sightings" in each country. Probably an early sign of global poz. I imagine Soviet stories of contact, were less homosexual.
    , @Triteleia Laxa
    @Shortsword


    USA and UK seem to be particularly obsessed about UFOs.
     
    Or super-intelligent aliens chose to visit the superior peoples!
  16. I’m nearly certain UFO sightings (esp. Area 51) are usually cover stories for advanced aircraft/spacecraft testing.

    • Agree: mal
  17. @JohnPlywood
    You guys are coping and scared shitless. The "UFOs" are extremely advanced US time dilation technology that can destroy anything China/Russia has. That's why they're slowly "revealing" them as Russia shows off its primitive propellant based rockets.


    Tbe USA probably has a military alliance with whatever extraterestrial society it got the technology from. Meaning that US global hegemony is a done permanent deal.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Mulga Mumblebrain, @Pericles, @Sinotibetan, @Daniel Chieh, @Boomthorkell

    Nice thing piling more speculation on top of established speculation.

  18. S says:
    @Shortsword
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAopNJMbFEI

    USA and UK seem to be particularly obsessed about UFOs.

    Replies: @S, @Almost Missouri, @songbird, @Triteleia Laxa

    USA and UK seem to be particularly obsessed about UFOs.

    Yes, and prior to that obsession there was the 19th century obsession with ghosts and ‘spirits’ (ie spiritualism), in what some describe as an ‘occult revolution’. Some have noted a certain overlap between spiritualists and the ‘UFO community’.

    The timing of these events is interesting as it occurred roughly just as the US/UK were achieving global hegemony status with their ‘special relationship’ circa 1900.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @S

    Maybe Jacques Vallée's idea of this being some kind of ectoplasmic manifestation of people's inner demons is true.

    No white whine worries -> No UFOs

  19. mal says:

    Most likely, UFO stories are about Military Industrial Complex asking for more money as space race is heating up.

    However, there’s also this:

    Of course, humanity hopes to avoid a surprise like the dinosaurs got 65 million years ago, when a 6-mile-wide asteroid crashed into the Earth. But in recent years, scientists have missed plenty of large, dangerous objects that came close.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/nasa-simulated-asteroid-couldnt-stop-impact-europe-2021-5

    If there are big space rocks incoming, you would need a public space program awareness campaign without freaking people out. So from perspective of our overlords, stories about aliens can do this perfectly – they are exciting without feeling apocalyptic. So large expenditures on space infrastructure can be justified by the need to track the little green men without worrying people too much about incoming rocks.

    • Replies: @Morton's toes
    @mal

    Yes. Key word in the recent publicity is threat.

    The biggest American organized UFO study ever produced the Condon report which said in conclusion not a threat. That was in the 1960's so I suppose 50 years ameliorates direct contradictions if you allow for slop.

    Close enough for government work!

  20. @mal
    Most likely, UFO stories are about Military Industrial Complex asking for more money as space race is heating up.

    However, there's also this:

    Of course, humanity hopes to avoid a surprise like the dinosaurs got 65 million years ago, when a 6-mile-wide asteroid crashed into the Earth. But in recent years, scientists have missed plenty of large, dangerous objects that came close.
     
    https://www.businessinsider.com/nasa-simulated-asteroid-couldnt-stop-impact-europe-2021-5

    If there are big space rocks incoming, you would need a public space program awareness campaign without freaking people out. So from perspective of our overlords, stories about aliens can do this perfectly - they are exciting without feeling apocalyptic. So large expenditures on space infrastructure can be justified by the need to track the little green men without worrying people too much about incoming rocks.

    Replies: @Morton's toes

    Yes. Key word in the recent publicity is threat.

    The biggest American organized UFO study ever produced the Condon report which said in conclusion not a threat. That was in the 1960’s so I suppose 50 years ameliorates direct contradictions if you allow for slop.

    Close enough for government work!

    • Agree: mal
  21. mal says:
    @Kratoklastes
    UFOs are like SETI: both depend on a 1950s mentality about technological change.

    Any civilisation that develops interplanetary flight, must necessarily first develop generalised computing.

    Generalised computing advances very quickly (at least exponentially, and perhaps in a 'punctuated double-exponential' fashion). Thus generalised (strong) AI will predictably happen within relatively few biological lifespans after the development of generalised computing.

    Once a society/civilisation achieves strong AI, it makes ZERO sense to send meatbags across interplanetary space... and even less sense to send meatbags across interstellar or intergalactic space. Most of the cost of manned space missions, is developing and furnishing a housing for the meatbags that will enable the meatbags to survive the launch and the trip.

    By contrast to generalised computing, meatbags evolve slowly - and retain shitty characteristics over very long spans of biological generations. The shitty characteristics with regard to interstellar space flight are things like
    - requirements for food, water, breathable gases, rest and waste disposal;
    - vulnerability outside of very narrow ranges of temperature/humidity/radiation/gas mix/impact-shock;
    - built-in degradation (i.e., short lifespans relative to the length of journey).


    So... it can be concluded a priori that any interstellar visitors to our little wet ball of rock, will arrive as strong AI 'virtual personalities' housed in radiation-powered nano-scale devices. They will only need to be O(2) (max 4) biological generations more advanced than the current level of technology in the West, to have the technological prowess to do so.

    And they will be as undetectable to us, as viruses were to the average OrthoHeeb rabbi in a hovel in the 19th century Pale of Settlement.

    Anyone who can't grok that, does not have the cognitive wherewithal to chide anybody about reluctance to participate in the current global vaccine trial.

    Replies: @mal, @El Dato, @Anatoly Karlin, @Eugene Norman, @Joe Paluka, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Any civilisation that develops interplanetary flight, must necessarily first develop generalised computing.

    Not necessarily. I mean, pigeons build and operate highly advanced quantum computers for navigation purposes (we still don’t understand exactly how they work, but basic idea boils down to pigeons visualizing planetary magnetic field lines by counting the distribution of quantum entangled electron spin numbers). Here is an article that describes the idea:
    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/birds-quantum-entanglement/

    This tech is far more advanced than anything humans have ever invented. I mean, to this day we don’t understand how it works. And i would say its specialized rather than generalized. And supply chain for those pigeon computers is mostly local unlike human tech which literally requires an entire planet to take part in its creation (silicon metal from Brasil, refineries in US and Japan, conductors sourced in Europe etc).

    Earth is weird in a sense that it has high gravity and from evolutionary point of view of multicellular organism it is too costly and not worth it to go to space. But of course, such limitations would not apply to life evolving in the depths of liquid oceans in some moon systems out there.

    So if for Earth, evolutionarily speaking, top technology would be planetary navigation based on pigeon quantum computers, such limitation would not apply to other more permissive environments. Due to lower delta v requirements, moon systems will favor evolving life with far greater technological adaptations than Earth based pigeons. No need for staging means interplanetary travel is possible and relatively easy.

    So i can see moon ocean alien squids evolving quantum entanglement based sensors first, like the pigeons, and then extending technogical leaps even further beyond our human understanding. And becoming interstellar species in the process.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Sick of Orcs
    @mal


    I mean, pigeons build and operate highly advanced quantum computers for navigation purposes (...pigeons visualizing planetary magnetic field lines by counting the distribution of quantum entangled electron spin numbers).
     
    All that biotech just to poop on your car!

    Replies: @mal

    , @S
    @mal


    So i can see moon ocean alien squids evolving quantum entanglement based sensors first, like the pigeons, and then extending technogical leaps even further beyond our human understanding. And becoming interstellar species in the process.
     
    https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_1248,w_2220/f_auto,q_auto,w_1100/v1555439919/shape/mentalfloss/wartop.jpg

    https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/63976/original-war-worlds-illustrations-auction
    , @S
    @mal

    That is an interesting angle.

    Grey whales were making ocean going inter-continental journeys of 10-12 thousand miles between Russia and Baja California well before the time humans could make such trips. Could creatures similarly theoretically naturally evolve to make space going trips, ie initially 'migrations' of some type, perhaps at first to nearby planets like the whales and pigeons do through the water and the air to near by continents, without the need of external craft and protective clothing?

    As far I know in the case of the Earth there is no sign of this occurring, though, I've never really gotten into UFO'olgy. It would be interesting to know just how many of the UFO reports of 'aliens' don't involve external 'space craft', or, 'space suits'.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/whale-migration-2291902

    Replies: @songbird, @Anatoly Karlin

  22. I think Musk has the right idea here.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    @DNS

    Reticulean Uncertainty Relation.

    , @RSDB
    @DNS

    UFO image resolution originates on this graph considerably higher than camera resolution; this is supposed to be an argument against something odd going on? Obviously as the other commenter argues the presence of a UFO places a hard limit on the resolution of photographs or other instrumental measurements.


    Do I have to say explicitly that this is not a serious comment?

  23. @Yevardian

    LinkBookmarkThere’s a good chance aliens exist, perhaps including in our galaxy. However, there are reasons – the Dark Forest theory, the Katechon Hypothesis – for why we should expect them to be paranoid about being detected.
     
    This has always seemed extremely doubtful to me. But an interesting point, I wonder how many people exist, who both don't believe in God OR aliens? In other words, a blunt acceptance that we are almost certainly the *only* intelligent life in the universe, that *has* ever existed, and likely ever *will* exist?
    The number must be vanishingly, microscopically small.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Abelard Lindsey, @Stan D Mute

    But an interesting point, I wonder how many people exist, who both don’t believe in God OR aliens? In other words, a blunt acceptance that we are almost certainly the *only* intelligent life in the universe, that *has* ever existed, and likely ever *will* exist?
    The number must be vanishingly, microscopically small.

    Well there’s me. Maybe I’m the only one?

  24. @JohnPlywood
    You guys are coping and scared shitless. The "UFOs" are extremely advanced US time dilation technology that can destroy anything China/Russia has. That's why they're slowly "revealing" them as Russia shows off its primitive propellant based rockets.


    Tbe USA probably has a military alliance with whatever extraterestrial society it got the technology from. Meaning that US global hegemony is a done permanent deal.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Mulga Mumblebrain, @Pericles, @Sinotibetan, @Daniel Chieh, @Boomthorkell

    UFOs can’t be true because any technologically and morally advanced civilization would reach for the galactic insect repellent on first viewing US politics and culture on radio and TV broadcasts.

    • Agree: Jazman
    • LOL: Realist, dfordoom
    • Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected
    @Mulga Mumblebrain


    UFOs can’t be true because any technologically and morally advanced civilization would reach for the galactic insect repellent on first viewing US politics and culture on radio and TV broadcasts.
     
    lol
  25. @DNS
    I think Musk has the right idea here.

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1374167754404630528

    Replies: @El Dato, @RSDB

    Reticulean Uncertainty Relation.

  26. @S
    @Shortsword


    USA and UK seem to be particularly obsessed about UFOs.
     
    Yes, and prior to that obsession there was the 19th century obsession with ghosts and 'spirits' (ie spiritualism), in what some describe as an 'occult revolution'. Some have noted a certain overlap between spiritualists and the 'UFO community'.

    The timing of these events is interesting as it occurred roughly just as the US/UK were achieving global hegemony status with their 'special relationship' circa 1900.

    Replies: @El Dato

    Maybe Jacques Vallée’s idea of this being some kind of ectoplasmic manifestation of people’s inner demons is true.

    No white whine worries -> No UFOs

    • Thanks: S
  27. @Kratoklastes
    UFOs are like SETI: both depend on a 1950s mentality about technological change.

    Any civilisation that develops interplanetary flight, must necessarily first develop generalised computing.

    Generalised computing advances very quickly (at least exponentially, and perhaps in a 'punctuated double-exponential' fashion). Thus generalised (strong) AI will predictably happen within relatively few biological lifespans after the development of generalised computing.

    Once a society/civilisation achieves strong AI, it makes ZERO sense to send meatbags across interplanetary space... and even less sense to send meatbags across interstellar or intergalactic space. Most of the cost of manned space missions, is developing and furnishing a housing for the meatbags that will enable the meatbags to survive the launch and the trip.

    By contrast to generalised computing, meatbags evolve slowly - and retain shitty characteristics over very long spans of biological generations. The shitty characteristics with regard to interstellar space flight are things like
    - requirements for food, water, breathable gases, rest and waste disposal;
    - vulnerability outside of very narrow ranges of temperature/humidity/radiation/gas mix/impact-shock;
    - built-in degradation (i.e., short lifespans relative to the length of journey).


    So... it can be concluded a priori that any interstellar visitors to our little wet ball of rock, will arrive as strong AI 'virtual personalities' housed in radiation-powered nano-scale devices. They will only need to be O(2) (max 4) biological generations more advanced than the current level of technology in the West, to have the technological prowess to do so.

    And they will be as undetectable to us, as viruses were to the average OrthoHeeb rabbi in a hovel in the 19th century Pale of Settlement.

    Anyone who can't grok that, does not have the cognitive wherewithal to chide anybody about reluctance to participate in the current global vaccine trial.

    Replies: @mal, @El Dato, @Anatoly Karlin, @Eugene Norman, @Joe Paluka, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    See also Greg Egan’s novel “Diaspora”, where most of the population is running on extremely evolved underground BezosBunkers with only a remainder of fleshers still living aboveground.

    How do ensure your security & privacy on a server farm that runs you? An interesting problem, one would have to achieve mandatory pervasive libertarianism first and/or have a REALLY good operating system.

    In the end, the main protagonists manage to travel through through the russian doll structure of universes, but copying themselves from one universe to the next through a noisy channel buried inside each subatomic particle, and they are “online” for one tick whenever a copy has been finished.

    Once you have coma that far, what remains to be done? You have two avenues: either suicide or the joy of digging for new theorems in abstract mathematics. The End.

    I can also recommend:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Names_(2008_story)
    https://archive.org/details/TrueNames

    by Cory Doctorow and Benjamin Rosenbaum

    which is actually great fun.

    It starts like this:

    Beebe fried the asteroid to slag when it left, exterminating millions of itself.

    The asteroid was a high-end system: a kilometer-thick shell of femtoscale crystalline lattices, running cool at five degrees Kelvin, powered by a hot core of fissiles. Quintillions of qubits, loaded up with powerful utilities and the canonical release of Standard Existence. Room for plenty of Beebe.

    But it wasn’t safe anymore.

    The comet Beebe was leaving on was smaller and dumber. Beebe spun itself down to its essentials. The littler bits of it cried and pled for their favorite toys and projects. A collection of civilization-jazz from under a thousand seas; zettabytes of raw atmosphere-dynamics data from favorite gas giants; ontological version control data in obsolete formats; a slew of favorite playworlds; reams of googly-eyed intraself love letters from a hundred million adolescences. It all went.

    Oh, hooked.

    • Replies: @S
    @El Dato


    In the end, the main protagonists manage to travel through through the russian doll structure of universes, but copying themselves from one universe to the next through a noisy channel buried inside each subatomic particle, and they are “online” for one tick whenever a copy has been finished.

    Once you have coma that far, what remains to be done? You have two avenues: either suicide or the joy of digging for new theorems in abstract mathematics. The End.
     
    Hmm, sounds not too far afield from the plot of the 1967 Star Trek episode The Alternative Factor. I always liked the space scientist/'radical' hippy Lazurus character.

    Alas, his one man flying saucer/interdimensional space ship he had constructed, which was kind of cool, had to be destroyed with Lazurus forever being trapped in an 'inter-dimensional corridor', to save the universe. :-(

    https://cache.desktopnexus.com/thumbseg/2559/2559478-bigthumbnail.jpg

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Alternative_Factor
  28. Belief in Aliens has to do with the dawning of the Age of Aquarius. As the vernal equinox moves towards the constellation of Aquarius, images of heavenly ascension associated with the myth of Ganymede start to circulate. People claim being abducted by technologically advanced aliens, Evangelicals await the rapture etc. That is a sign of the times.

    Aliens may be hidden or not, they may reveal themselves, and even save the righteous. But otherwise these unconfirmed rumours of aliens fit well into the mythology of Aquarius, and are in my opinion a rather unconscious expression of our changing celestial alignment.

  29. @Mulga Mumblebrain
    @JohnPlywood

    UFOs can't be true because any technologically and morally advanced civilization would reach for the galactic insect repellent on first viewing US politics and culture on radio and TV broadcasts.

    Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected

    UFOs can’t be true because any technologically and morally advanced civilization would reach for the galactic insect repellent on first viewing US politics and culture on radio and TV broadcasts.

    lol

  30. @JohnPlywood
    You guys are coping and scared shitless. The "UFOs" are extremely advanced US time dilation technology that can destroy anything China/Russia has. That's why they're slowly "revealing" them as Russia shows off its primitive propellant based rockets.


    Tbe USA probably has a military alliance with whatever extraterestrial society it got the technology from. Meaning that US global hegemony is a done permanent deal.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Mulga Mumblebrain, @Pericles, @Sinotibetan, @Daniel Chieh, @Boomthorkell

    In fact developed in SUPER TOP SECRET clearance by Kangz. Project Pyramid.

  31. S says:

    Does anyone recall around 1990 reports in the United States about Salyut 7 Soviet Cosmonauts in 1984 seeing ‘angels’ floating around their spacecraft, and also the Voronezh Park incident of 1989? In the US these stories, though sounding fantastic, were reported ‘straight’ with no indication that it was ‘a joke’ on the Soviets part.

    Seems since that time there’s been some push back at least regarding the Voronezh incident

    How were these stories reported in the old USSR and the post Soviet Russia? Anyone here inside Russia at the time that might care to comment?

    All of the cosmonauts reported seeing the faces of seven angels who were hovering just outside the space station. They told ground control they were humanoid in appearance (faces and bodies looked human), but they had wings and halos. These beings kept pace with the space station for 10-minutes before vanishing.

    https://www.techeblog.com/mind-blowing-story-of-russian-cosmonauts-who-saw-angels-in-space/

    https://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/11/world/ufo-landing-is-fact-not-fantasy-the-russians-insist.html

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voronezh_UFO_incident

  32. @Shortsword
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAopNJMbFEI

    USA and UK seem to be particularly obsessed about UFOs.

    Replies: @S, @Almost Missouri, @songbird, @Triteleia Laxa

    Thanks. Contrary to the “encounter on a lonesome road” stereotype, that visualization certainly suggests that the UFO phenomenon is almost perfectly correlated with population centers (also with English-speaking population centers, but I think that is just because the data source is a US-based English language organization).

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Almost Missouri

    To be fair, "UFO sightings" require an observer to make the sighting, so it is not obviously wrong that there will be more sightings where there are more observers. Still, if there is a map of, say, "Bigfoot sightings", I expect NYC and LA won't be so well represented.

    , @Shortsword
    @Almost Missouri


    also with English-speaking population centers, but I think that is just because the data source is a US-based English language organization
     
    This might exaggerate it slightly, sure, but Americans are no doubt particularly obsessed with UFOs. Area 51 and such.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  33. There’s a good chance aliens exist, perhaps including in our galaxy.

    Agreed.

    I am loath to believe anything the U. S. government promotes. There are two probable reasons the U. S. has a full-court press to promote UFOs:

    1. Instill fear in the populace for purposes of control.

    2. Provide an initiative for an increase in the war budget.

    • Agree: AnonfromTN
  34. S says:
    @El Dato
    @Kratoklastes

    See also Greg Egan's novel "Diaspora", where most of the population is running on extremely evolved underground BezosBunkers with only a remainder of fleshers still living aboveground.

    How do ensure your security & privacy on a server farm that runs you? An interesting problem, one would have to achieve mandatory pervasive libertarianism first and/or have a REALLY good operating system.

    In the end, the main protagonists manage to travel through through the russian doll structure of universes, but copying themselves from one universe to the next through a noisy channel buried inside each subatomic particle, and they are "online" for one tick whenever a copy has been finished.

    Once you have coma that far, what remains to be done? You have two avenues: either suicide or the joy of digging for new theorems in abstract mathematics. The End.

    I can also recommend:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Names_(2008_story)
    https://archive.org/details/TrueNames

    by Cory Doctorow and Benjamin Rosenbaum

    which is actually great fun.

    It starts like this:

    Beebe fried the asteroid to slag when it left, exterminating millions of itself.

    The asteroid was a high-end system: a kilometer-thick shell of femtoscale crystalline lattices, running cool at five degrees Kelvin, powered by a hot core of fissiles. Quintillions of qubits, loaded up with powerful utilities and the canonical release of Standard Existence. Room for plenty of Beebe.

    But it wasn't safe anymore.

    The comet Beebe was leaving on was smaller and dumber. Beebe spun itself down to its essentials. The littler bits of it cried and pled for their favorite toys and projects. A collection of civilization-jazz from under a thousand seas; zettabytes of raw atmosphere-dynamics data from favorite gas giants; ontological version control data in obsolete formats; a slew of favorite playworlds; reams of googly-eyed intraself love letters from a hundred million adolescences. It all went.

     

    Oh, hooked.

    Replies: @S

    In the end, the main protagonists manage to travel through through the russian doll structure of universes, but copying themselves from one universe to the next through a noisy channel buried inside each subatomic particle, and they are “online” for one tick whenever a copy has been finished.

    Once you have coma that far, what remains to be done? You have two avenues: either suicide or the joy of digging for new theorems in abstract mathematics. The End.

    Hmm, sounds not too far afield from the plot of the 1967 Star Trek episode The Alternative Factor. I always liked the space scientist/’radical’ hippy Lazurus character.

    Alas, his one man flying saucer/interdimensional space ship he had constructed, which was kind of cool, had to be destroyed with Lazurus forever being trapped in an ‘inter-dimensional corridor’, to save the universe. 🙁

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Alternative_Factor

  35. @DNS
    I think Musk has the right idea here.

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1374167754404630528

    Replies: @El Dato, @RSDB

    UFO image resolution originates on this graph considerably higher than camera resolution; this is supposed to be an argument against something odd going on? Obviously as the other commenter argues the presence of a UFO places a hard limit on the resolution of photographs or other instrumental measurements.

    [MORE]

    Do I have to say explicitly that this is not a serious comment?

  36. @Kratoklastes
    UFOs are like SETI: both depend on a 1950s mentality about technological change.

    Any civilisation that develops interplanetary flight, must necessarily first develop generalised computing.

    Generalised computing advances very quickly (at least exponentially, and perhaps in a 'punctuated double-exponential' fashion). Thus generalised (strong) AI will predictably happen within relatively few biological lifespans after the development of generalised computing.

    Once a society/civilisation achieves strong AI, it makes ZERO sense to send meatbags across interplanetary space... and even less sense to send meatbags across interstellar or intergalactic space. Most of the cost of manned space missions, is developing and furnishing a housing for the meatbags that will enable the meatbags to survive the launch and the trip.

    By contrast to generalised computing, meatbags evolve slowly - and retain shitty characteristics over very long spans of biological generations. The shitty characteristics with regard to interstellar space flight are things like
    - requirements for food, water, breathable gases, rest and waste disposal;
    - vulnerability outside of very narrow ranges of temperature/humidity/radiation/gas mix/impact-shock;
    - built-in degradation (i.e., short lifespans relative to the length of journey).


    So... it can be concluded a priori that any interstellar visitors to our little wet ball of rock, will arrive as strong AI 'virtual personalities' housed in radiation-powered nano-scale devices. They will only need to be O(2) (max 4) biological generations more advanced than the current level of technology in the West, to have the technological prowess to do so.

    And they will be as undetectable to us, as viruses were to the average OrthoHeeb rabbi in a hovel in the 19th century Pale of Settlement.

    Anyone who can't grok that, does not have the cognitive wherewithal to chide anybody about reluctance to participate in the current global vaccine trial.

    Replies: @mal, @El Dato, @Anatoly Karlin, @Eugene Norman, @Joe Paluka, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Quotes where I chided anyone for not taking vaccines, or said or even implied that visiting aliens must necessarily be meatbags.

  37. @S

    There’s a good chance aliens exist, perhaps including in our galaxy.
     
    I think they probably exist, too.

    What's concerning to me is the context and timing of the recent announcements by the US government about UFO's. I include in my skepticism the 'crop circle phenomena' of the UK of the past few decades as well.

    There were multiple sci-fi TV episodes back in the 60's in the US that had 'progressive' scientists faking UFO alien contact/invasions to help in 'unifying the Earth'...for 'everyone's good' naturally. One of these sci-fi tv prog scientists, pretending to be an alien, wound up being mistaken as a bear by a rural hunter in upstate New York and fatally shot. I suppose there's a message in there somewhere.

    Ronald Reagan gave a speech to the UN suggesting how unifying to the world it would be if an alien invasion took place, almost as if he was wishing it would happen.

    There are those on this Earth who will say, do, or attempt anything, to achieve ever more wealth and power.

    Replies: @Realist, @Sick 'n Tired

    See my comment #33

    • Replies: @S
    @Realist

    Yes, I tend to agree. I would be very weary of these UFO claims by the US government, in particular in regards to their historic geo-political context.

    Replies: @Realist

  38. @Realist
    @S

    See my comment #33

    Replies: @S

    Yes, I tend to agree. I would be very weary of these UFO claims by the US government, in particular in regards to their historic geo-political context.

    • Replies: @Realist
    @S

    Thanks

  39. @Almost Missouri
    @Shortsword

    Thanks. Contrary to the "encounter on a lonesome road" stereotype, that visualization certainly suggests that the UFO phenomenon is almost perfectly correlated with population centers (also with English-speaking population centers, but I think that is just because the data source is a US-based English language organization).

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Shortsword

    To be fair, “UFO sightings” require an observer to make the sighting, so it is not obviously wrong that there will be more sightings where there are more observers. Still, if there is a map of, say, “Bigfoot sightings”, I expect NYC and LA won’t be so well represented.

  40. @S
    @Realist

    Yes, I tend to agree. I would be very weary of these UFO claims by the US government, in particular in regards to their historic geo-political context.

    Replies: @Realist

    Thanks

  41. There are enough reliable sightings or encounters of pilots from backward countries like ex-Yugoslavia that are, for me, proof that some objects of that type did actually visit (or have been intermittently visiting) the earth for decades and, probably, centuries.

    This cannot be reduced to psychological climate or mass hysteria, meteorological phenomena or information or psycho-warfare. Also, it is virtually impossible that any country, now, possesses such a superior technology.

    Simply- the entire world-view that we live in a 3+1 dimensional universe is narrow & obsolete.

    • Replies: @S
    @Bardon Kaldian


    This cannot be reduced to psychological climate or mass hysteria, meteorological phenomena or information or psycho-warfare. Also, it is virtually impossible that any country, now, possesses such a superior technology.
     
    Soooo...I take it you don't believe it's all simply 'swamp gas' then, which was a standard US government response at one time? Duly noted.

    Watch this man! ;-)

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    , @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian

    And military pilots in France had also said they had experiences with unidentified objects. (https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/70/documents/news-features/declassified-documents/ufo/french_gov_ufo_study.pdf )

    So it seems that pilots' experiences with unusual objects can be quite international across the second half of the 20th century - e.g. in USA, USSR/Russia, France, Yugoslavia.

    That doesn't mean that there can't be a psychological or natural explanation. But there is something that needed to be explained.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Bashibuzuk

  42. @Shortsword
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAopNJMbFEI

    USA and UK seem to be particularly obsessed about UFOs.

    Replies: @S, @Almost Missouri, @songbird, @Triteleia Laxa

    USA and UK seem to be particularly obsessed about UFOs.

    To a certain extent, I would extend it to Australia and Canada. Australia, I believe, was where the idea of crop circles originated – it was reeds and sugarcane, before it was corn.

    It is my theory that the Anglosphere had a special network effect that encouraged “sightings” in each country. Probably an early sign of global poz. I imagine Soviet stories of contact, were less homosexual.

  43. Man… in the age of deep fake videos you’d think CIA would throw a few dollars towards something convincing.

    I guess the marketing department spent its budget on all those woke ads.

    Some kids have been out of school for 1-2 years. Youtube is their primary source of education and market algorithms tend to keep them in their own self-affirming bubble.

    When 12-14 year olds (gullible) turn to adults (voting/consent-age) they will form the online flat earth-like cult of Aliens(TM) to distract public discussion with triviality. One of many I’m sure. I’m old bro….

  44. @Almost Missouri
    @Shortsword

    Thanks. Contrary to the "encounter on a lonesome road" stereotype, that visualization certainly suggests that the UFO phenomenon is almost perfectly correlated with population centers (also with English-speaking population centers, but I think that is just because the data source is a US-based English language organization).

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Shortsword

    also with English-speaking population centers, but I think that is just because the data source is a US-based English language organization

    This might exaggerate it slightly, sure, but Americans are no doubt particularly obsessed with UFOs. Area 51 and such.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Shortsword

    It's not only Americans and Western Europeans - it's also part of the pop culture in Russia to watch for UFOs, although it could be a bit regional - for example in Perm region, they have tried to turn some of the sightings like a tourist attraction, and they have UFO conferences there.

    Most of the UFO is "yellow press" clickbait (whether in the USA, in Europe, in Russia) - and already in the 1950s according to psychoanalyst Carl Jung; but there is also more serious layer in the stories of air force personnel and commanders.

    It's with stories of military people, or retired military workers, that makes it seem like UFOs could be a more serious topic than merely pop culture material and mass hysteria.

    In the Soviet times, interest in the UFO topic was led, against ideological resistance, by serious people from the airforce, in Moscow Aviation Institute, etc.

    -

    The topic has such a bifurcation - where it interested the least serious and irresponsible professions (mystics, schizophrenics, clickbait writers in the yellow press, astrological sign readers), and the most serious and responsible specialists (aviators, military commanders). We can bet that it is either very unserious (like astrology) or very serious; but not somewhere inbetween.

  45. I do believe there is intelligent life out there. Whether or not they’ve visited us, I don’t know, plausible, but it’s fun to think about. Having said that, I’m deeply saddened by the recent videos shared by the government acknowledging UFO’s, because everything they do has ulterior motives. Now it leaves me wondering what they have up their sleeve, what false flag is next? Faking an alien invasion has to be a last resort for them. I’m guessing they’re hedging on people uncovering the massive voter fraud; a fake alien invasion would be about the only option left to distract the populace.

    • Agree: Sick 'n Tired
  46. @Yevardian

    LinkBookmarkThere’s a good chance aliens exist, perhaps including in our galaxy. However, there are reasons – the Dark Forest theory, the Katechon Hypothesis – for why we should expect them to be paranoid about being detected.
     
    This has always seemed extremely doubtful to me. But an interesting point, I wonder how many people exist, who both don't believe in God OR aliens? In other words, a blunt acceptance that we are almost certainly the *only* intelligent life in the universe, that *has* ever existed, and likely ever *will* exist?
    The number must be vanishingly, microscopically small.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Abelard Lindsey, @Stan D Mute

    But an interesting point, I wonder how many people exist, who both don’t believe in God OR aliens?

    I’m one of these.

    I don’t believe in any of the religions/gods and I think the emergence of the Eukayote was such a singularly rare event that it happened only once in our galaxy and possibly the universe.

    https://nick-lane.net/books/power-sex-suicide-mitochondria-meaning-life/

    • Replies: @Sinotibetan
    @Abelard Lindsey

    The emergence of eukaryotes would indeed be very rare. However , Japanese scientists did discover a unicellular life-form which may have some"eukaryotic-like" characteristics called Parakaryon myojinensis ( see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parakaryon_myojinensis and https://academic.oup.com/jmicro/article-abstract/61/6/423/1989140?redirectedFrom=fulltext). Too bad they do not have any genetic material from the organism and so far no one has managed to "re-capture" it. If this organism is not an artefact, another endosymbiotic process might have occured to produce a chimaeric life-form analogous to eukaryotes. Perhaps such a life form may exist in these deep ocean trenches.
    Moreover, again another group of Japanese have discovered a lokiarchaeon called Prometheoarchaeum syntrophicum which had a very interesting cellular phenotype for a prokaryote. They came up with the E3 hypothesis ( entangle- engulf- endogenize ; in the original bioRxiv
    non peer reviewed paper, it was entangle- engulf- enslave ,but " thanks"
    to the "outrage" of "anti-racist " scientists, they had to resort to the politically -correct term "endogenize". The power of "peer review"!) to explain the capture of the mitochondrial alphaproteobacteria ancestor. If it's indeed the mechanism, it may be that "eukaryogenesis" is rare but not as rare as we think.see https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1916-6

    To me, what's even more implausible is an abiotic origin of life by totally random chemical reactions. I think an intelligent being/beings "created" , at least the first life forms, then allowed them to "evolve". Whether these are aliens or God/gods - who knows? At least, unlike atheistic scientists, I am open to this possibility. Ultimately all "origins" hypotheses remain hypotheses.

    Replies: @Abelard Lindsey

  47. @Max Payne
    Four videos, all from the MIC, all "real", all "leaked".
    All from infrared sensors.
    All off the coast of California.

    Not one is a Mk1 eyeball observation.

    If Americans go full arms-race over a bloated fly stuck between pressure plates, a refraction from a distant passenger plane, a meteorite entering the atmosphere on a wide trajectory, and a peregrine falcon then god help us all.

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Dsuzb2LELYo/X84xQqy1YRI/AAAAAAAAHD8/NhPA7Llo358alqvY9-vj219NMSm-UrwJgCLcBGAsYHQ/s234/flyturn.gif

    UFO? More like poor maintenance. Corrective measures towards service crew is required. Not photon torpedoes.

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZTVGgLQj-7U/X84xQtPdS4I/AAAAAAAAHEA/Ydvsa68v48owiXyFQefBExxF-LF1eGF3gCLcBGAsYHQ/s727/flyflyfly.png

    I can only imagine this to be part of the same CIA program that pushed the flat earth BS online to discredit any form of discussions towards conspiracies.

    "You know that alt-media, with its flat earth and aliens and JFK assassinations, don't listen to the crazies. Stay on CNN."

    https://i.imgflip.com/29gt2s.jpg

    Even the pilots who claim to have observed a UAO/whatever visually (not through IR or radar echoes) have direct links to organizations or projects that involve military research or UFO study.

    However, admission and public discussion of this is a no go area, as it challenges the US image of itself as absolute military hegemon. But xenos are a different matter.
     
    The US demonized the Soviet Union to god-like power. US media is strong enough to link these videos (and covid-19 too, why not) to the growing Chinese military, that must be met with $3 trillion dollar budget. When asked how they got so advanced the typical American line is "oh they stole that tech from us".

    BAM! Biden should hire me to bullshit for him.

    Replies: @Abelard Lindsey

    Good point!

    I was wondering if other people (e.g. Chinese military, Russians, etc.) were also seeing these UFO’s or if it was only our military that was seeing them.

    I read somewhere on the net that they began seeing these UFO’s after they upgraded their radar/IR hardware in their planes.

    • Replies: @Max Payne
    @Abelard Lindsey


    I read somewhere on the net that they began seeing these UFO’s after they upgraded their radar/IR hardware in their planes.
     
    Pretty much. Around 2003-4ish when the AN/ASQ-228 ATFLIR was deployed in large numbers.

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-y2dl380tgxY/X85C58PoY4I/AAAAAAAAHEg/EtZtkFUjY_oVnrzgs_fFJbP35Z24uGOMgCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/as228.png

    2 of 4 videos were around this time. Training mistakes as personnel learn to service/attach the system. A substantial upgrade rolled out in mid-2010s which brought on the second wave of videos.

    They are all user error, hardware faults or misinterpretations (pilots on go-pills/amphetamines off the coast of California; you know Californians, 7.8 million retards for every 1 intelligent person over there, Silicon Valley vs everyone else).

    A few frames of the GOFAST video:

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MhTxX24iWjw/X84x-t6jtEI/AAAAAAAAHEM/444Fw-BD-hcliaR0kzXII9yMiywRY7a5wCLcBGAsYHQ/s317/GOFAST.gif

    'Go Fast" was a crew flying at 25,000ft tracking a peregrine falcon at 13,000 feet (if the rangefinder is to believed) flying at 70-90 km/h (40-50 knots). The F-18 is turning and the auto-track is rotating creating a parallax like illusion.

    The audio of the footage is what really sells it as "unknown" as the two pilots are in confusion at what they are seeing. Because there is NO WAY US pilots don't know what they're looking at (as every Canadian Armed Forces member recalls the first Canadian causalities in Afghanistan were from a US pilot dropping a JDAM on them).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnak_Farm_incident

    Yet scientists who rely on IR cameras to track birds have already noted IR signatures of feathers to reduce misreadings.

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RSkx6im40e4/X84x96clVcI/AAAAAAAAHEI/FZvk_manLyYXxBbWWr1Fnu2NECHabx5ZQCLcBGAsYHQ/s685/birdfeathers.png

    ALL 'leaked' videos started popping up in 2017-2019 in conjunction with a proposal to replace the AN/ASQ-228 with an upgrade due to readiness rate and sustainable cost.

    https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/us-navy-looks-to-replace-or-improve-f/a-18e/f-eo/ir-targeting-pods/133971.article

    As if there was a plan...

    All other sightings have an obvious reasonable explanation (visual artifacts, sensor echoes, signal lag, debuffering issues, etc.).

    https://i.redd.it/1zmomb9rcaj61.jpg

    So in short there is NO direct evidence of UFOs, aliens, or any other nonsense.

    https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0005515622.pdf

    Even this document, which is INTERPRETED as UFO/alien evidence (hand-delivered artifact from a science department to a director). What one man sees as evidence of UFO, I see someone trying to pitch a new department to promote themselves (constant reminders US has no UFO department; someone above him crossed out words instead of redacting them to reduce this particular language).

    Like the poster on Fox Mulder's wall says "I WANT TO BELIEVE"

    But.....
  48. @Dmitry
    UFO topic has been an interesting debate for decades, and there are all kinds of stories and myths, from the Soviet Union, from America and from Europe. In 1959, the topic was important enough, that the psychologist (Freud's most famous pupil) Carl Jung has published a book on it, claiming that the UFO was a projection of the self that we have lost connection to in modern times.

    But today's news-consuming or politics-consuming public, seems to be a little uninterested in UFOs.

    News-consuming people today seem to show primarily interest in topics which can be given a partisan aspect, as that allows the story to be related to their sense of personal identity, and the mental conflicts they have already invested in.

    In the American context, if UFOs were involved in opposing "Merry Christmas", then the Fox News viewers would become emotionally interested in this topic.

    Whereas if the UFO story could be presented as related to Trump supporters, or part of the Russian hacking conspiracy, then the CNN viewers will inevitably become interested.

    -

    One of the criticisms of modern culture, is that we are supposed to have a short attention span, and change our interest from one minute to an other. But problem can be more like the opposite: that the news fans have to be slowly fixated and emotionally invested into a topic over many years, and the interest is only "fired" when it is presented in relation to a rival side, as that strikes their sense of personal or tribal identity.

    Therefore, that mask-wearing became somehow tied to right-wing in the United States during the 2020 coronavirus pandemic. And in response, the left-wing Americans, including much of the country's media, have become interested in wearing masks. (Yet when we look at videos from CNN, et al, of early 2020, they were also opposing the wearing of masks).

    Only when the topic of mask-wearing could be inserted into America's pre-existing telenovela or family argument, could it generate serious interest.

    Replies: @nosquat loquat

    I agree, but the idiotic partisanship becomes dangerous when it involves health issues. For example, Trump’s initial interest in hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin was due to his learning of the success of French doctor and clinician, Didier Raoult, in treating early Covid patients with them. But as the media establishment associated the issue with Trump, any mention of the treatment was ridiculed by all those who “knew better” and thus deprived people not only of an effective treatment, but of an alternative to vaccination, which was probably the agenda behind the media blitz in the first place.

    It is a sick affair, all round, and the events of the Trump years, coupled with the Covid scam, have succeeded in herding Americans–a great many of whom in the late Naughts had, after it was clear that Obama was a continuation of Bush, come to the realization that the left/right divide was fake and that two-party partisanism a thing of the past–back into their mindless “red” and “blue” stables.

    May they perish in the sh*t endlessly piling up in those precincts…

  49. S says:
    @Bardon Kaldian
    There are enough reliable sightings or encounters of pilots from backward countries like ex-Yugoslavia that are, for me, proof that some objects of that type did actually visit (or have been intermittently visiting) the earth for decades and, probably, centuries.

    This cannot be reduced to psychological climate or mass hysteria, meteorological phenomena or information or psycho-warfare. Also, it is virtually impossible that any country, now, possesses such a superior technology.

    Simply- the entire world-view that we live in a 3+1 dimensional universe is narrow & obsolete.

    Replies: @S, @Dmitry

    This cannot be reduced to psychological climate or mass hysteria, meteorological phenomena or information or psycho-warfare. Also, it is virtually impossible that any country, now, possesses such a superior technology.

    Soooo…I take it you don’t believe it’s all simply ‘swamp gas’ then, which was a standard US government response at one time? Duly noted.

    Watch this man! 😉

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @S

    I take it seriously because serious- although in this case, someone I detest- people like general Zvonko Jurjević, last commander of Yugoslav People Army Air Force in dissolution and a wanted war criminal who still resides in Belgrade (if he hadn't croaked recently), more than a few times has testified that during the 1970s, he personally, as the JNA/YPA fighter pilot, had been mocked by a UFO-like object which, after he embarked on a chase of the object, miraculously appeared before & after his plane, instantly changing positions by suddenly "materializing" and "dematerializing" within his field of vision & earth based radars.

    There are numerous attested examples like this one, and not just fictions about alien abductions, nor sightings from mentally unstable individuals.

    There is enough evidence from professional & mentally balanced individuals, that they had been in close visual contact with flying objects whose dynamic capabilities defy anything we can do. And a common feature is frequently connected with something we could call "higher dimensions", because sudden appearance/disappearance from/to a point implies that a 4-dimensional object- at least, since there could be more dimensions- has somehow "tunneled" form the 4- dimensional space to our 3-dimensional space by manipulating its extra dimension(s) through some technology we could not even think of, as yet.

    Anyway, there is -among numerous others- a watchable video in Serbian (for English subtitles, click on the wheel, right corner bottom & choose the English sub):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9LZimu90ps

  50. I wonder how many who believe in alien visitors are anti-racists or globalists. Pretty high percentage, I would imagine.

    Maybe, it is based on a deep instinct, to transcend borders – those between countries and those between worlds.

    HG Welles possibly did more to popularize aliens than anyone else. He later advocated for global government, a New World Order, and global human rights.

    • Agree: Yellowface Anon
  51. It really feels like this is being released for a reason. In which case…it’s probably fake.

    In the event it’s not fake, I’m really disinclined to believe that anyone is making any interstellar voyages. If we have active neighbors, they’re from the Solar system.

  52. @S
    @Bardon Kaldian


    This cannot be reduced to psychological climate or mass hysteria, meteorological phenomena or information or psycho-warfare. Also, it is virtually impossible that any country, now, possesses such a superior technology.
     
    Soooo...I take it you don't believe it's all simply 'swamp gas' then, which was a standard US government response at one time? Duly noted.

    Watch this man! ;-)

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    I take it seriously because serious- although in this case, someone I detest- people like general Zvonko Jurjević, last commander of Yugoslav People Army Air Force in dissolution and a wanted war criminal who still resides in Belgrade (if he hadn’t croaked recently), more than a few times has testified that during the 1970s, he personally, as the JNA/YPA fighter pilot, had been mocked by a UFO-like object which, after he embarked on a chase of the object, miraculously appeared before & after his plane, instantly changing positions by suddenly “materializing” and “dematerializing” within his field of vision & earth based radars.

    There are numerous attested examples like this one, and not just fictions about alien abductions, nor sightings from mentally unstable individuals.

    There is enough evidence from professional & mentally balanced individuals, that they had been in close visual contact with flying objects whose dynamic capabilities defy anything we can do. And a common feature is frequently connected with something we could call “higher dimensions”, because sudden appearance/disappearance from/to a point implies that a 4-dimensional object- at least, since there could be more dimensions- has somehow “tunneled” form the 4- dimensional space to our 3-dimensional space by manipulating its extra dimension(s) through some technology we could not even think of, as yet.

    Anyway, there is -among numerous others- a watchable video in Serbian (for English subtitles, click on the wheel, right corner bottom & choose the English sub):

    • Thanks: S
  53. @songbird
    @Dmitry

    Wow, thanks! That was really interesting - firstly, I never knew that the USSR put out an English language magazine. I've just been reading about it: part of a bilateral agreement, where America simultaneously put out a magazine in the USSR. As part of the agreement, both magazines were initially restricted to only a circulation of 30,000.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Life

    Very tangential, but sci-fi author Arthur C. Clarke had his sequel novel 2010, which involves aliens, serialized in a Soviet popular mag, but he secretly made the names of his characters into Soviet dissidents, and so they dropped the later installments, but were forced to print a short summery, due to fan support.
    https://www.rbth.com/history/331258-arthur-clarke-ussr-soviet-scifi

    I don't know if it is just a bias of perspective that I have, being in large part ignorant of other cultures, but it seems to me that during the Cold War, the Anglosphere had a special kind of mania for crazy phenomenon, including UFOs. Clarke himself, who some credit with coming up with the idea of the communication satellites, hosted a TV show, where there were interviews of English people who claimed that it rained frogs one day.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke%27s_Mysterious_World#The_Journey_Begins..._%E2%80%93_2_September_1980

    Perhaps, it was all an early sign of wokeness? The ability of crazy ideas to spread and be promoted on the back of capitalism? A kind of network effect of communications before the internet? (testable with ngrams?)

    I had been thinking that the Soviet Union being very secular, and, having similar wide open spaces like the US (which I view as the center of UFO mania), might have been especially susceptible to UFO mania, but that they lacked the commercial apparatus - the gift shops, the Hollywood productions, the comic books, the free press to popularize it to its full potential.

    Replies: @Servant of Gla'aki

    Clarke himself, who some credit with coming up with the idea of the communication satellites, hosted a TV show, where there were interviews of English people who claimed that it rained frogs one day.

    It’s not really controversial that this happens. It is presumably some uncatalogued meteorological phenomenon, likely related to water spouts, or something similar. About a century ago, a frozen-solid alligator fell to Earth in Massachusetts. It’s most definitely a thing. But probably not a particularly mysterious one, albeit still technically unexplained.

    • Agree: S
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Servant of Gla'aki


    About a century ago, a frozen-solid alligator fell to Earth in Massachusetts.
     
    Don't believe I ever heard that story. I'd immediately guess it artificially frozen and thrown onto some street.

    I think twisters throw stuff outward, much more than upward, so that's one reason I'm a skeptic about raining animals. Though I doubt we understand all natural phenomena. For example, I doubt that anyone conceived of limnic eruptions, even fifty years ago.

    Replies: @Ray P

  54. @Abelard Lindsey
    @Yevardian


    But an interesting point, I wonder how many people exist, who both don’t believe in God OR aliens?
     
    I'm one of these.

    I don't believe in any of the religions/gods and I think the emergence of the Eukayote was such a singularly rare event that it happened only once in our galaxy and possibly the universe.

    https://nick-lane.net/books/power-sex-suicide-mitochondria-meaning-life/

    Replies: @Sinotibetan

    The emergence of eukaryotes would indeed be very rare. However , Japanese scientists did discover a unicellular life-form which may have some”eukaryotic-like” characteristics called Parakaryon myojinensis ( see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parakaryon_myojinensis and https://academic.oup.com/jmicro/article-abstract/61/6/423/1989140?redirectedFrom=fulltext). Too bad they do not have any genetic material from the organism and so far no one has managed to “re-capture” it. If this organism is not an artefact, another endosymbiotic process might have occured to produce a chimaeric life-form analogous to eukaryotes. Perhaps such a life form may exist in these deep ocean trenches.
    Moreover, again another group of Japanese have discovered a lokiarchaeon called Prometheoarchaeum syntrophicum which had a very interesting cellular phenotype for a prokaryote. They came up with the E3 hypothesis ( entangle- engulf- endogenize ; in the original bioRxiv
    non peer reviewed paper, it was entangle- engulf- enslave ,but ” thanks”
    to the “outrage” of “anti-racist ” scientists, they had to resort to the politically -correct term “endogenize”. The power of “peer review”!) to explain the capture of the mitochondrial alphaproteobacteria ancestor. If it’s indeed the mechanism, it may be that “eukaryogenesis” is rare but not as rare as we think.see https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1916-6

    To me, what’s even more implausible is an abiotic origin of life by totally random chemical reactions. I think an intelligent being/beings “created” , at least the first life forms, then allowed them to “evolve”. Whether these are aliens or God/gods – who knows? At least, unlike atheistic scientists, I am open to this possibility. Ultimately all “origins” hypotheses remain hypotheses.

    • Replies: @Abelard Lindsey
    @Sinotibetan

    Nick Lane addresses these findings on his website. He says both of these still relied on the envelopment of an oxygen producer and an methanogen, which adds more support for the hydrogen hypothesis of endosymbiosis.

  55. @JohnPlywood
    You guys are coping and scared shitless. The "UFOs" are extremely advanced US time dilation technology that can destroy anything China/Russia has. That's why they're slowly "revealing" them as Russia shows off its primitive propellant based rockets.


    Tbe USA probably has a military alliance with whatever extraterestrial society it got the technology from. Meaning that US global hegemony is a done permanent deal.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Mulga Mumblebrain, @Pericles, @Sinotibetan, @Daniel Chieh, @Boomthorkell

    Indeed! Why do you think the American ruling elites believe in USA exceptionalism? Not only was there a transfer of advanced technology from these UFO denizens to the American ruling elites, they even transfer ideas of a superior civilization – stuff like LBGTQ(RSTU….Z?), anti-racism, one world government …Unfortunately these American ruling elites got conned thinking these aliens came in peace . They didn’t realize they are like the Borg , they plan to assimilate humans into their borg-like life-forms. Some of the American elites anti-human behaviour meant they are actually aliens who look human by phenotypic mimicry. They cannot have humans procreate and start to become rebellious so that’s why they come up with LBGTQ….Z? moreover , the Aliens’ main objectives are to use up the Earth’s resources and ultimately eat up all the humans before they go on to a wormhole and on to another parallel universe , repeating the whole process in a parallel earth. It’s ad infinitum…..

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @Sinotibetan

    Alien depictions and advanced human ethnic groups are typically androgynous and sexually perverted (see Jews and Japanese, for example). If aliens have visited Earth, my money is on them favoring the US-led one world government. Like Jews and Japanese do.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell

  56. I have seen UFOs twice when I was a child. Both times I was with my parents.
    The first time it was a red object with a shape similar to an anvil, it was flying parallel to our car.
    The second time we were at our villa outside the city, I was gazing at the stars and noticed a bright orange star that I haven’t seen before in that place. I called my mom to come see it and suddenly the star started growing and turned into a spinning orange disc, apparently closing in fast.
    I got excited and started waving at the aliens (my childish mind was absolutely certain that this must be aliens), but my mother got really scared and started shouting at me to go inside. As if it heard her, it suddenly stopped approaching and then made a turn north and disappeared over Romania.

    Both UFOs were strange and I can’t find a good explanation for either of them, but the second one especially could not have been a man-made flying object, considering that despite its obviously supersonic speed there was no noise from it at all.

    So while the US government is fishy as always, I know for a fact that UFOs are real. Commenter Sparkon correctly noted that UFO sightings are nothing new and certainly didn’t start with the US military or the industrial age.

    Here is my hypothesis: it’s probably aliens who are pretty advanced and who have some business on this planet, they also observe us from time to time similar to how we would observe animals in the wild and don’t really care that we see them, but nevertheless they usually keep some distance (again similarly to how we observe animals).

    The USG and the other planetary governments simply ignore this or have mostly ignored this until now, because there is nothing they can do and because they don’t want to admit that they are completely helpless and ignorant in this matter.
    As for what is the motivation for the Pentagon suddenly taking about it – it’s probably something bad, like more money/control/whatever. Since the UFOs apparently aren’t a threat, might as well use them in some weird agenda.

    • Agree: Boomthorkell
    • Replies: @Sinotibetan
    @Spisarevski

    Interesting. I find ideas by Erich von Danicken , the so called "discredited" gods = aliens "crackpot" pretty interesting . He was referring to the description of Ophanim and Cherubim in the book of Ezekiel as actually UFO sightings in ancient times. And that giants ("nephilim" described in the Old Testament) as genetic miscreants by rebellious angels (" aliens") union with "attractive" human females. These were reminiscent of divine-human copulations in many myths giving rise to "demigods". We just don't know. I am open to all these fascinating speculations.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Boomthorkell
    @Spisarevski

    Yes. It's probable to there are some "bad actors" amongst the stars with interests in corrupting or altering humans, but being largely advanced and civilized, and with others to deal with, it never goes beyond very, very light interactions (periodic kidnappings, experiments, working with local leaders, etc.)

    My favorite personal interpretation of the old myths is that a group of aliens decided to enjoy some freedom on the fringes, a Bioshock-Paradise of sorts, where they could create a genetically modified slave-race from some local lifeforms (like when we make rabbits glow in the dark, but better), and rule as Gods. Of course, whatever wider power was out there caught on and viciously punished them, thus ending the past "Age of the Gods" however many hundreds of thousands of years ago that was.

    Anyhow, I'm certain our elites are riding this wave as excuse for further centralizing power and a new excuse for keeping the people enslaved and impoverished "for their own well being." Quite probably, they'll also use this as an excuse for slowly rolling out the more advanced technology they have had access to for a while, but refused to share on the basis it would make things just too easy and happy.

    , @BlackFlag
    @Spisarevski

    It seems like the probability of a person seeing a UFO vastly increases once they have already seen one. Even when you account for the place, time, and type of activity they engage in.

  57. @Spisarevski
    I have seen UFOs twice when I was a child. Both times I was with my parents.
    The first time it was a red object with a shape similar to an anvil, it was flying parallel to our car.
    The second time we were at our villa outside the city, I was gazing at the stars and noticed a bright orange star that I haven't seen before in that place. I called my mom to come see it and suddenly the star started growing and turned into a spinning orange disc, apparently closing in fast.
    I got excited and started waving at the aliens (my childish mind was absolutely certain that this must be aliens), but my mother got really scared and started shouting at me to go inside. As if it heard her, it suddenly stopped approaching and then made a turn north and disappeared over Romania.

    Both UFOs were strange and I can't find a good explanation for either of them, but the second one especially could not have been a man-made flying object, considering that despite its obviously supersonic speed there was no noise from it at all.

    So while the US government is fishy as always, I know for a fact that UFOs are real. Commenter Sparkon correctly noted that UFO sightings are nothing new and certainly didn't start with the US military or the industrial age.

    Here is my hypothesis: it's probably aliens who are pretty advanced and who have some business on this planet, they also observe us from time to time similar to how we would observe animals in the wild and don't really care that we see them, but nevertheless they usually keep some distance (again similarly to how we observe animals).

    The USG and the other planetary governments simply ignore this or have mostly ignored this until now, because there is nothing they can do and because they don't want to admit that they are completely helpless and ignorant in this matter.
    As for what is the motivation for the Pentagon suddenly taking about it - it's probably something bad, like more money/control/whatever. Since the UFOs apparently aren't a threat, might as well use them in some weird agenda.

    Replies: @Sinotibetan, @Boomthorkell, @BlackFlag

    Interesting. I find ideas by Erich von Danicken , the so called “discredited” gods = aliens “crackpot” pretty interesting . He was referring to the description of Ophanim and Cherubim in the book of Ezekiel as actually UFO sightings in ancient times. And that giants (“nephilim” described in the Old Testament) as genetic miscreants by rebellious angels (” aliens”) union with “attractive” human females. These were reminiscent of divine-human copulations in many myths giving rise to “demigods”. We just don’t know. I am open to all these fascinating speculations.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Sinotibetan


    giants (“nephilim” described in the Old Testament

     

    This storyarc sounds like the Titans, if we read Hesiod. And ignore the 21st century mythological additions about UFOs.

    There is a lot of the similarity of Old Testament and Greek mythology* - likely explained by a degree of common origin influences like the Hittite mythology. (There has been more and more evidence that the Greeks were influenced by the mythologies of the ancient Near East.)


    -

    * E.g. Another parallel is the story of Pandora in Hesiod, which quite matches the role of Eve in Genesis

    Jung would claim that the similarity of the ancient myths was because of a universal collective unconscious; but perhaps simply geographical proximity and common heritage of the ancient civilizations, can explain a large part of the similarities.

  58. @Spisarevski
    I have seen UFOs twice when I was a child. Both times I was with my parents.
    The first time it was a red object with a shape similar to an anvil, it was flying parallel to our car.
    The second time we were at our villa outside the city, I was gazing at the stars and noticed a bright orange star that I haven't seen before in that place. I called my mom to come see it and suddenly the star started growing and turned into a spinning orange disc, apparently closing in fast.
    I got excited and started waving at the aliens (my childish mind was absolutely certain that this must be aliens), but my mother got really scared and started shouting at me to go inside. As if it heard her, it suddenly stopped approaching and then made a turn north and disappeared over Romania.

    Both UFOs were strange and I can't find a good explanation for either of them, but the second one especially could not have been a man-made flying object, considering that despite its obviously supersonic speed there was no noise from it at all.

    So while the US government is fishy as always, I know for a fact that UFOs are real. Commenter Sparkon correctly noted that UFO sightings are nothing new and certainly didn't start with the US military or the industrial age.

    Here is my hypothesis: it's probably aliens who are pretty advanced and who have some business on this planet, they also observe us from time to time similar to how we would observe animals in the wild and don't really care that we see them, but nevertheless they usually keep some distance (again similarly to how we observe animals).

    The USG and the other planetary governments simply ignore this or have mostly ignored this until now, because there is nothing they can do and because they don't want to admit that they are completely helpless and ignorant in this matter.
    As for what is the motivation for the Pentagon suddenly taking about it - it's probably something bad, like more money/control/whatever. Since the UFOs apparently aren't a threat, might as well use them in some weird agenda.

    Replies: @Sinotibetan, @Boomthorkell, @BlackFlag

    Yes. It’s probable to there are some “bad actors” amongst the stars with interests in corrupting or altering humans, but being largely advanced and civilized, and with others to deal with, it never goes beyond very, very light interactions (periodic kidnappings, experiments, working with local leaders, etc.)

    My favorite personal interpretation of the old myths is that a group of aliens decided to enjoy some freedom on the fringes, a Bioshock-Paradise of sorts, where they could create a genetically modified slave-race from some local lifeforms (like when we make rabbits glow in the dark, but better), and rule as Gods. Of course, whatever wider power was out there caught on and viciously punished them, thus ending the past “Age of the Gods” however many hundreds of thousands of years ago that was.

    Anyhow, I’m certain our elites are riding this wave as excuse for further centralizing power and a new excuse for keeping the people enslaved and impoverished “for their own well being.” Quite probably, they’ll also use this as an excuse for slowly rolling out the more advanced technology they have had access to for a while, but refused to share on the basis it would make things just too easy and happy.

  59. modern UFO skeptics are half correct.

    1) cell phones and security cameras being everywhere have reduced the number of credible UFO encounters to almost zero.

    this is where it should be. credible UFO encounters are extremely rare and the average citizen pretty much never experiences them. the previous decades of reports, from the 1940s to the 1990s, where random people are reporting UFO encounters all the time, were definitely 99% made up BS or incorrect identification of terrestrial events. like hauntings and ghost reports, which in the era of cell phones and security cameras everywhere, have likewise been reduced to nearly zero. they just weren’t happening.

    2) credible UFO encounters are mostly the realm of military operators and civilian aircraft pilots, and those are real, in the sense that they have visual and radar confirmation, and could only be explained as craft of some kind. the origin of the craft is where the debate begins, not whether it was craft or not.

    a lot of the videos being released on the internet are low quality, because military video is usually Gen 3+ night vision, or FLIR. even video cameras have to be ‘rugged’, they aren’t going to be 4K movie cameras or whatever quality of video skeptics are expecting. so the Ramzpaul objection that as video technology improves, UFO video gets worse, is pretty easily explained for military video. the radar (and sonar in some cases) returns aren’t something they’re showing on the internet, but they’re there, even from civilian radar. and military operators have been reporting UFO radar returns going back to the 50s.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
    @prime noticer


    1) cell phones and security cameras being everywhere have reduced the number of credible UFO encounters to almost zero.
     
    Cell phone and security cameras are almost entirely unsuitable (useless) for recording images of anything unless it is up close and personal. You can sometimes get an ID of porch pirates with a security camera, but try using your smartphone to capture an image of a high-flying, fast moving bird.

    Virtually no serious wildlife photographer uses a smartphone for imaging. Rather, these guys invest a few grand for a pro or semi-pro quality DSLR with a long lens mounted, commonly 400 mm, and even then, it takes no small measure of skill for the photographer to get the flying bird framed and recorded.

    Replies: @songbird, @prime noticer

  60. @S
    Could be, too, that any aliens out there may have some sort of 'prime directive' in effect, forbidding interference in other species development.

    Speaking of which, how many noticed the similarities between the US Space Force symbol and the Star Trek symbol for the United Federation of Planets (UFP)?

    The old 1960's Star Trek series was simply an ideolized 'progressive' projection of how they think the United States will evolve in two hundred years. The star ships are simply interstellar 'aircraft carrier' like projections of power, complete with the same names in certain instances. NASA has evolved into the United Earth Space Agency. The global capital is at the Presidio, San Francisco, in the old US.

    https://images.axios.com/d7FfZ7eB_GEHtyygg-cV05aEJXs=/0x0:1920x1080/1920x1080/2020/01/24/1579903031279.jpg

    http://d3p35yrllpoz9p.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/altfactor-052.jpg

    Replies: @A123

    The new Space Force logo is derived from the Air Force Space Command logo and a NASA logo (1)

      

    The creators of Star Trek used a NASA logo in their Starfleet iconography.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://www.universetoday.com/144779/okay-this-logo-proves-that-space-force-should-have-really-been-called-star-fleet/

    • Thanks: S
  61. @E. Harding
    Funny how UFOs became a notable phenomenon right around when planes, rockets, and weather balloons became widespread. Today, we have RCs added to that list. As camera resolution grows, UFOs should become easier to identify.

    In any case, if aliens visited Earth, it would be patently obvious, observable by numerous telescopes, satellites, etc.

    Replies: @Sparkon, @The Wild Geese Howard

    As camera resolution grows, UFOs should become easier to identify.

    It is incredible to me that, with the enormously improved and powerful imaging technology available in 2021, it is seemingly impossible for anyone out there to capture UFO images that are orders of magnitude better than those captured in the ’70s and ’80s.

  62. @Sinotibetan
    @Abelard Lindsey

    The emergence of eukaryotes would indeed be very rare. However , Japanese scientists did discover a unicellular life-form which may have some"eukaryotic-like" characteristics called Parakaryon myojinensis ( see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parakaryon_myojinensis and https://academic.oup.com/jmicro/article-abstract/61/6/423/1989140?redirectedFrom=fulltext). Too bad they do not have any genetic material from the organism and so far no one has managed to "re-capture" it. If this organism is not an artefact, another endosymbiotic process might have occured to produce a chimaeric life-form analogous to eukaryotes. Perhaps such a life form may exist in these deep ocean trenches.
    Moreover, again another group of Japanese have discovered a lokiarchaeon called Prometheoarchaeum syntrophicum which had a very interesting cellular phenotype for a prokaryote. They came up with the E3 hypothesis ( entangle- engulf- endogenize ; in the original bioRxiv
    non peer reviewed paper, it was entangle- engulf- enslave ,but " thanks"
    to the "outrage" of "anti-racist " scientists, they had to resort to the politically -correct term "endogenize". The power of "peer review"!) to explain the capture of the mitochondrial alphaproteobacteria ancestor. If it's indeed the mechanism, it may be that "eukaryogenesis" is rare but not as rare as we think.see https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1916-6

    To me, what's even more implausible is an abiotic origin of life by totally random chemical reactions. I think an intelligent being/beings "created" , at least the first life forms, then allowed them to "evolve". Whether these are aliens or God/gods - who knows? At least, unlike atheistic scientists, I am open to this possibility. Ultimately all "origins" hypotheses remain hypotheses.

    Replies: @Abelard Lindsey

    Nick Lane addresses these findings on his website. He says both of these still relied on the envelopment of an oxygen producer and an methanogen, which adds more support for the hydrogen hypothesis of endosymbiosis.

  63. @prime noticer
    modern UFO skeptics are half correct.

    1) cell phones and security cameras being everywhere have reduced the number of credible UFO encounters to almost zero.

    this is where it should be. credible UFO encounters are extremely rare and the average citizen pretty much never experiences them. the previous decades of reports, from the 1940s to the 1990s, where random people are reporting UFO encounters all the time, were definitely 99% made up BS or incorrect identification of terrestrial events. like hauntings and ghost reports, which in the era of cell phones and security cameras everywhere, have likewise been reduced to nearly zero. they just weren't happening.

    2) credible UFO encounters are mostly the realm of military operators and civilian aircraft pilots, and those are real, in the sense that they have visual and radar confirmation, and could only be explained as craft of some kind. the origin of the craft is where the debate begins, not whether it was craft or not.

    a lot of the videos being released on the internet are low quality, because military video is usually Gen 3+ night vision, or FLIR. even video cameras have to be 'rugged', they aren't going to be 4K movie cameras or whatever quality of video skeptics are expecting. so the Ramzpaul objection that as video technology improves, UFO video gets worse, is pretty easily explained for military video. the radar (and sonar in some cases) returns aren't something they're showing on the internet, but they're there, even from civilian radar. and military operators have been reporting UFO radar returns going back to the 50s.

    Replies: @Sparkon

    1) cell phones and security cameras being everywhere have reduced the number of credible UFO encounters to almost zero.

    Cell phone and security cameras are almost entirely unsuitable (useless) for recording images of anything unless it is up close and personal. You can sometimes get an ID of porch pirates with a security camera, but try using your smartphone to capture an image of a high-flying, fast moving bird.

    Virtually no serious wildlife photographer uses a smartphone for imaging. Rather, these guys invest a few grand for a pro or semi-pro quality DSLR with a long lens mounted, commonly 400 mm, and even then, it takes no small measure of skill for the photographer to get the flying bird framed and recorded.

    • Agree: Easy Pete
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Sparkon

    Night time observations beg the question, what would motivate them to have their lights on?

    Would UFOs most likely be pleasure craft operated by alien drunks or by drugged-up alien hippies? Or the operations of alien nations? If the latter, I don't see why they would keep their lights on. If the former, I don't see why alien nations would not keep the area off limits to pleasure craft.

    Replies: @Sparkon, @Dmitry

    , @prime noticer
    @Sparkon

    "Cell phone and security cameras are almost entirely unsuitable (useless) for recording images of anything unless it is up close and personal."

    what would make you say that? i can easily record videos of human aircraft on my cell phone, or track them with binoculars. i live on a hill where lots of stuff flies overhead all the time. especially when stuff is several miles away, flying at night with lights, it produces a pretty clear video.

    indeed, the CLOSER the aircraft is, the harder it is to get into frame. when it's miles away, flying at 500 mph, it's not hard to track. helicopters and prop aircraft at 1 or 2 miles distance in particular are easy to track.

    i can get military aircraft at 50,000 to 60,000 feet of elevation on video no problem, and have since the 80s.

    Replies: @Sparkon

  64. @Kratoklastes
    UFOs are like SETI: both depend on a 1950s mentality about technological change.

    Any civilisation that develops interplanetary flight, must necessarily first develop generalised computing.

    Generalised computing advances very quickly (at least exponentially, and perhaps in a 'punctuated double-exponential' fashion). Thus generalised (strong) AI will predictably happen within relatively few biological lifespans after the development of generalised computing.

    Once a society/civilisation achieves strong AI, it makes ZERO sense to send meatbags across interplanetary space... and even less sense to send meatbags across interstellar or intergalactic space. Most of the cost of manned space missions, is developing and furnishing a housing for the meatbags that will enable the meatbags to survive the launch and the trip.

    By contrast to generalised computing, meatbags evolve slowly - and retain shitty characteristics over very long spans of biological generations. The shitty characteristics with regard to interstellar space flight are things like
    - requirements for food, water, breathable gases, rest and waste disposal;
    - vulnerability outside of very narrow ranges of temperature/humidity/radiation/gas mix/impact-shock;
    - built-in degradation (i.e., short lifespans relative to the length of journey).


    So... it can be concluded a priori that any interstellar visitors to our little wet ball of rock, will arrive as strong AI 'virtual personalities' housed in radiation-powered nano-scale devices. They will only need to be O(2) (max 4) biological generations more advanced than the current level of technology in the West, to have the technological prowess to do so.

    And they will be as undetectable to us, as viruses were to the average OrthoHeeb rabbi in a hovel in the 19th century Pale of Settlement.

    Anyone who can't grok that, does not have the cognitive wherewithal to chide anybody about reluctance to participate in the current global vaccine trial.

    Replies: @mal, @El Dato, @Anatoly Karlin, @Eugene Norman, @Joe Paluka, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Once a society/civilisation achieves strong AI, it makes ZERO sense to send meatbags across interplanetary space…

    Don’t see why the AI isn’t travelling across space, though.

    AI is not inevitable. Since computers started it’s been predicted in the next generation. Hollywood is all over this from HAL on. And we have Siri.

    If anything the rate of change of computing power is slowing and computing power isn’t enough anyway. To create a conscious machine we have to understand consciousness.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @Eugene Norman

    I generally agree.

    The stat I found, which continues to make sense to me, is that the cost-adjusted productivity of computers has been improving by 2%/year since 2010 or so, compared to 20%+/year in the core years of the 1990s - early 2000s. This seems to make more sense to me than the observation that Moore's Law technically still holds, since my lying eyes tell me that computing devices only marginally improved in the past decade, compared to the amazing advances in the decades before.

    Basically, once clock speed stopped improving, all the various processor features like adding more cores or improving the cache haven't had nearly the same impact, but a lot of people seem to be pretending this isn't true. It looks to me like we're basically approaching an asymptote with hardware in the next two decades or so, where progress will slow until individual computing devices can't really be improved upon in a way anyone would notice (aside from making them more specialized), and the only way to scale up is to spend more money and build ever-larger server farms or supercomputers.

    All that said, computers still seem to be improving a lot faster than outer space propulsion systems, and on that basis, general AI still seems to be the more practical of the two achievements. But I'm leaning towards thinking that both are practically impossible, and that this solves the Fermi Paradox. I'm certainly not convinced by any solution that suggests aliens (or their AI) could have colonized the entire galaxy, including our world, but have chosen not to do so. Sooner or later, something would fill the vacuum, if it could.

  65. @Sinotibetan
    @JohnPlywood

    Indeed! Why do you think the American ruling elites believe in USA exceptionalism? Not only was there a transfer of advanced technology from these UFO denizens to the American ruling elites, they even transfer ideas of a superior civilization - stuff like LBGTQ(RSTU....Z?), anti-racism, one world government ...Unfortunately these American ruling elites got conned thinking these aliens came in peace . They didn't realize they are like the Borg , they plan to assimilate humans into their borg-like life-forms. Some of the American elites anti-human behaviour meant they are actually aliens who look human by phenotypic mimicry. They cannot have humans procreate and start to become rebellious so that's why they come up with LBGTQ....Z? moreover , the Aliens' main objectives are to use up the Earth's resources and ultimately eat up all the humans before they go on to a wormhole and on to another parallel universe , repeating the whole process in a parallel earth. It's ad infinitum.....

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    Alien depictions and advanced human ethnic groups are typically androgynous and sexually perverted (see Jews and Japanese, for example). If aliens have visited Earth, my money is on them favoring the US-led one world government. Like Jews and Japanese do.

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
    @JohnPlywood

    The Japanese, as I recall, were drafted into that. They spent about 66 years trying to escape Perry.

  66. @Servant of Gla'aki
    @songbird


    Clarke himself, who some credit with coming up with the idea of the communication satellites, hosted a TV show, where there were interviews of English people who claimed that it rained frogs one day.
     
    It's not really controversial that this happens. It is presumably some uncatalogued meteorological phenomenon, likely related to water spouts, or something similar. About a century ago, a frozen-solid alligator fell to Earth in Massachusetts. It's most definitely a thing. But probably not a particularly mysterious one, albeit still technically unexplained.

    Replies: @songbird

    About a century ago, a frozen-solid alligator fell to Earth in Massachusetts.

    Don’t believe I ever heard that story. I’d immediately guess it artificially frozen and thrown onto some street.

    I think twisters throw stuff outward, much more than upward, so that’s one reason I’m a skeptic about raining animals. Though I doubt we understand all natural phenomena. For example, I doubt that anyone conceived of limnic eruptions, even fifty years ago.

    • Replies: @Ray P
    @songbird

    The Mad Fishmonger has a cousin who prefers frozen 'gators.

  67. @Sparkon
    @prime noticer


    1) cell phones and security cameras being everywhere have reduced the number of credible UFO encounters to almost zero.
     
    Cell phone and security cameras are almost entirely unsuitable (useless) for recording images of anything unless it is up close and personal. You can sometimes get an ID of porch pirates with a security camera, but try using your smartphone to capture an image of a high-flying, fast moving bird.

    Virtually no serious wildlife photographer uses a smartphone for imaging. Rather, these guys invest a few grand for a pro or semi-pro quality DSLR with a long lens mounted, commonly 400 mm, and even then, it takes no small measure of skill for the photographer to get the flying bird framed and recorded.

    Replies: @songbird, @prime noticer

    Night time observations beg the question, what would motivate them to have their lights on?

    Would UFOs most likely be pleasure craft operated by alien drunks or by drugged-up alien hippies? Or the operations of alien nations? If the latter, I don’t see why they would keep their lights on. If the former, I don’t see why alien nations would not keep the area off limits to pleasure craft.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
    @songbird


    Night time observations beg the question, what would motivate them to have their lights on?
     
    Beats me.

    How could I possibly know what any potential /putative aliens might be thinking?

    Indeed, I can't even figure out what motivates some many humans to do what they do. Why do a few morons drive their cars the wrong way on LA freeways, killing themselves and others? How do drivers manage to crash their cars into buildings? Why do so many people "own" dogs?

    I'll stop there, but what does any of your rather fatuous comment have to do with photography?

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Dmitry
    @songbird

    Light could be caused by reflection from the sun (e.g. why satellites look like moving stars in the night sky) or energy in or around the object caused by its interaction with the atmosphere (e.g. objects entering or reentering atmosphere, including meteors, ballistic missiles, etc), or from witnesses misidentifying ordinary planes with lights, or jets with afterburners, or if someone on the ground is firing a powerful laser into the sky.

    Some of the UFOs could include notknown natural phenomenon such as Hessdalen lights in Norway, which seems to be natural, but is not understood.

    If a UFO was somehow alien technology, then anyone can guess - it would be random speculation from u. But fast movements of the unidentified objects claimed in some reports would require vast amounts of energy, so a release of light could seem to be a physical result of any object which had made such movements, if you will actually believe any such eyewitness reports about such fast maneuvering objects in the sky.

  68. @JohnPlywood
    You guys are coping and scared shitless. The "UFOs" are extremely advanced US time dilation technology that can destroy anything China/Russia has. That's why they're slowly "revealing" them as Russia shows off its primitive propellant based rockets.


    Tbe USA probably has a military alliance with whatever extraterestrial society it got the technology from. Meaning that US global hegemony is a done permanent deal.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Mulga Mumblebrain, @Pericles, @Sinotibetan, @Daniel Chieh, @Boomthorkell

    Powerful!

  69. If you listen carefully to Phillip Corso, he/they (General Arthur Trudeau) were afraid that other people in the government would close down their research and take it away from them.

    The Military was under civilian control and the research was moved out of their hands (the military’s) into OGAs and quasi OGAs. Groups like MITRE and SAIC

    A few years ago government contractors began cutting their ties and reforming away from the old model. SAIC became Leidos and Lockheed Martin no longer keeps the books for the Pentagon, etc. It was a signal that something was changing.

    The US is believed to have reduced-inertia craft like the TR-3B and likely later models. These are some of the triangles people have seen with night visions goggles. (videos no longer available)

    Corso interview:

  70. @songbird
    @Sparkon

    Night time observations beg the question, what would motivate them to have their lights on?

    Would UFOs most likely be pleasure craft operated by alien drunks or by drugged-up alien hippies? Or the operations of alien nations? If the latter, I don't see why they would keep their lights on. If the former, I don't see why alien nations would not keep the area off limits to pleasure craft.

    Replies: @Sparkon, @Dmitry

    Night time observations beg the question, what would motivate them to have their lights on?

    Beats me.

    How could I possibly know what any potential /putative aliens might be thinking?

    Indeed, I can’t even figure out what motivates some many humans to do what they do. Why do a few morons drive their cars the wrong way on LA freeways, killing themselves and others? How do drivers manage to crash their cars into buildings? Why do so many people “own” dogs?

    I’ll stop there, but what does any of your rather fatuous comment have to do with photography?

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Sparkon

    Well, you mentioned DSLR. I assumed that was a reference to night time photography - you can't generally capture lights in the sky accurately with normal cameras.

    Apparently, you were referring to something else. Be that as it may, it seems obvious that most sightings are lights in the night-time sky.

  71. @songbird
    @Sparkon

    Night time observations beg the question, what would motivate them to have their lights on?

    Would UFOs most likely be pleasure craft operated by alien drunks or by drugged-up alien hippies? Or the operations of alien nations? If the latter, I don't see why they would keep their lights on. If the former, I don't see why alien nations would not keep the area off limits to pleasure craft.

    Replies: @Sparkon, @Dmitry

    Light could be caused by reflection from the sun (e.g. why satellites look like moving stars in the night sky) or energy in or around the object caused by its interaction with the atmosphere (e.g. objects entering or reentering atmosphere, including meteors, ballistic missiles, etc), or from witnesses misidentifying ordinary planes with lights, or jets with afterburners, or if someone on the ground is firing a powerful laser into the sky.

    Some of the UFOs could include notknown natural phenomenon such as Hessdalen lights in Norway, which seems to be natural, but is not understood.

    If a UFO was somehow alien technology, then anyone can guess – it would be random speculation from u. But fast movements of the unidentified objects claimed in some reports would require vast amounts of energy, so a release of light could seem to be a physical result of any object which had made such movements, if you will actually believe any such eyewitness reports about such fast maneuvering objects in the sky.

    • Agree: songbird
  72. @Sparkon
    @songbird


    Night time observations beg the question, what would motivate them to have their lights on?
     
    Beats me.

    How could I possibly know what any potential /putative aliens might be thinking?

    Indeed, I can't even figure out what motivates some many humans to do what they do. Why do a few morons drive their cars the wrong way on LA freeways, killing themselves and others? How do drivers manage to crash their cars into buildings? Why do so many people "own" dogs?

    I'll stop there, but what does any of your rather fatuous comment have to do with photography?

    Replies: @songbird

    Well, you mentioned DSLR. I assumed that was a reference to night time photography – you can’t generally capture lights in the sky accurately with normal cameras.

    Apparently, you were referring to something else. Be that as it may, it seems obvious that most sightings are lights in the night-time sky.

  73. @mal
    @Kratoklastes


    Any civilisation that develops interplanetary flight, must necessarily first develop generalised computing.
     
    Not necessarily. I mean, pigeons build and operate highly advanced quantum computers for navigation purposes (we still don't understand exactly how they work, but basic idea boils down to pigeons visualizing planetary magnetic field lines by counting the distribution of quantum entangled electron spin numbers). Here is an article that describes the idea:
    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/birds-quantum-entanglement/

    This tech is far more advanced than anything humans have ever invented. I mean, to this day we don't understand how it works. And i would say its specialized rather than generalized. And supply chain for those pigeon computers is mostly local unlike human tech which literally requires an entire planet to take part in its creation (silicon metal from Brasil, refineries in US and Japan, conductors sourced in Europe etc).

    Earth is weird in a sense that it has high gravity and from evolutionary point of view of multicellular organism it is too costly and not worth it to go to space. But of course, such limitations would not apply to life evolving in the depths of liquid oceans in some moon systems out there.

    So if for Earth, evolutionarily speaking, top technology would be planetary navigation based on pigeon quantum computers, such limitation would not apply to other more permissive environments. Due to lower delta v requirements, moon systems will favor evolving life with far greater technological adaptations than Earth based pigeons. No need for staging means interplanetary travel is possible and relatively easy.

    So i can see moon ocean alien squids evolving quantum entanglement based sensors first, like the pigeons, and then extending technogical leaps even further beyond our human understanding. And becoming interstellar species in the process.

    Replies: @Sick of Orcs, @S, @S

    I mean, pigeons build and operate highly advanced quantum computers for navigation purposes (…pigeons visualizing planetary magnetic field lines by counting the distribution of quantum entangled electron spin numbers).

    All that biotech just to poop on your car!

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @mal
    @Sick of Orcs

    Chad pigeons display dominance over virgin humans.

    Replies: @Tony massey

  74. Here is one of the more interesting videos in recent years. Shot using a telephoto lens instead of a phone. The craft appears alien.

  75. @Shortsword
    @Almost Missouri


    also with English-speaking population centers, but I think that is just because the data source is a US-based English language organization
     
    This might exaggerate it slightly, sure, but Americans are no doubt particularly obsessed with UFOs. Area 51 and such.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    It’s not only Americans and Western Europeans – it’s also part of the pop culture in Russia to watch for UFOs, although it could be a bit regional – for example in Perm region, they have tried to turn some of the sightings like a tourist attraction, and they have UFO conferences there.

    Most of the UFO is “yellow press” clickbait (whether in the USA, in Europe, in Russia) – and already in the 1950s according to psychoanalyst Carl Jung; but there is also more serious layer in the stories of air force personnel and commanders.

    It’s with stories of military people, or retired military workers, that makes it seem like UFOs could be a more serious topic than merely pop culture material and mass hysteria.

    In the Soviet times, interest in the UFO topic was led, against ideological resistance, by serious people from the airforce, in Moscow Aviation Institute, etc.

    The topic has such a bifurcation – where it interested the least serious and irresponsible professions (mystics, schizophrenics, clickbait writers in the yellow press, astrological sign readers), and the most serious and responsible specialists (aviators, military commanders). We can bet that it is either very unserious (like astrology) or very serious; but not somewhere inbetween.

  76. @Sinotibetan
    @Spisarevski

    Interesting. I find ideas by Erich von Danicken , the so called "discredited" gods = aliens "crackpot" pretty interesting . He was referring to the description of Ophanim and Cherubim in the book of Ezekiel as actually UFO sightings in ancient times. And that giants ("nephilim" described in the Old Testament) as genetic miscreants by rebellious angels (" aliens") union with "attractive" human females. These were reminiscent of divine-human copulations in many myths giving rise to "demigods". We just don't know. I am open to all these fascinating speculations.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    giants (“nephilim” described in the Old Testament

    This storyarc sounds like the Titans, if we read Hesiod. And ignore the 21st century mythological additions about UFOs.

    There is a lot of the similarity of Old Testament and Greek mythology* – likely explained by a degree of common origin influences like the Hittite mythology. (There has been more and more evidence that the Greeks were influenced by the mythologies of the ancient Near East.)

    * E.g. Another parallel is the story of Pandora in Hesiod, which quite matches the role of Eve in Genesis

    Jung would claim that the similarity of the ancient myths was because of a universal collective unconscious; but perhaps simply geographical proximity and common heritage of the ancient civilizations, can explain a large part of the similarities.

  77. @Spisarevski
    I have seen UFOs twice when I was a child. Both times I was with my parents.
    The first time it was a red object with a shape similar to an anvil, it was flying parallel to our car.
    The second time we were at our villa outside the city, I was gazing at the stars and noticed a bright orange star that I haven't seen before in that place. I called my mom to come see it and suddenly the star started growing and turned into a spinning orange disc, apparently closing in fast.
    I got excited and started waving at the aliens (my childish mind was absolutely certain that this must be aliens), but my mother got really scared and started shouting at me to go inside. As if it heard her, it suddenly stopped approaching and then made a turn north and disappeared over Romania.

    Both UFOs were strange and I can't find a good explanation for either of them, but the second one especially could not have been a man-made flying object, considering that despite its obviously supersonic speed there was no noise from it at all.

    So while the US government is fishy as always, I know for a fact that UFOs are real. Commenter Sparkon correctly noted that UFO sightings are nothing new and certainly didn't start with the US military or the industrial age.

    Here is my hypothesis: it's probably aliens who are pretty advanced and who have some business on this planet, they also observe us from time to time similar to how we would observe animals in the wild and don't really care that we see them, but nevertheless they usually keep some distance (again similarly to how we observe animals).

    The USG and the other planetary governments simply ignore this or have mostly ignored this until now, because there is nothing they can do and because they don't want to admit that they are completely helpless and ignorant in this matter.
    As for what is the motivation for the Pentagon suddenly taking about it - it's probably something bad, like more money/control/whatever. Since the UFOs apparently aren't a threat, might as well use them in some weird agenda.

    Replies: @Sinotibetan, @Boomthorkell, @BlackFlag

    It seems like the probability of a person seeing a UFO vastly increases once they have already seen one. Even when you account for the place, time, and type of activity they engage in.

  78. @Bardon Kaldian
    There are enough reliable sightings or encounters of pilots from backward countries like ex-Yugoslavia that are, for me, proof that some objects of that type did actually visit (or have been intermittently visiting) the earth for decades and, probably, centuries.

    This cannot be reduced to psychological climate or mass hysteria, meteorological phenomena or information or psycho-warfare. Also, it is virtually impossible that any country, now, possesses such a superior technology.

    Simply- the entire world-view that we live in a 3+1 dimensional universe is narrow & obsolete.

    Replies: @S, @Dmitry

    And military pilots in France had also said they had experiences with unidentified objects. (https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/70/documents/news-features/declassified-documents/ufo/french_gov_ufo_study.pdf )

    So it seems that pilots’ experiences with unusual objects can be quite international across the second half of the 20th century – e.g. in USA, USSR/Russia, France, Yugoslavia.

    That doesn’t mean that there can’t be a psychological or natural explanation. But there is something that needed to be explained.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Dmitry


    That doesn’t mean that there can’t be a psychological or natural explanation. But there is something that needed to be explained.
     
    Sure. But as yet, it wasn't offered.

    In case of UFOs, it is idle to speculate about their motives. It would be like a dog guessing about his owner, human's motivation.
    , @Bashibuzuk
    @Dmitry

    Someone I have known for many years has served in the French Army unit responsible for NBC defense. This guy has told me a few years ago that his friends among the veterans of the same unit were discussing a strange situation where a "UFO landing site" somewhere in France was supposedly inspected by the unit in question before all the findings got confiscated by some "men jn black " types who supposedly were not even French. The whole occurrence got classified with people having to sign mandatory NDAs.

    Accordung to my contact, the French military were not freaking about the UFO itself, but about these weurd "men in black " being imposed in top of them, bossing them and giving them orders how they should take care of the whole thing.

  79. @Sick of Orcs
    @mal


    I mean, pigeons build and operate highly advanced quantum computers for navigation purposes (...pigeons visualizing planetary magnetic field lines by counting the distribution of quantum entangled electron spin numbers).
     
    All that biotech just to poop on your car!

    Replies: @mal

    Chad pigeons display dominance over virgin humans.

    • Replies: @Tony massey
    @mal

    I was swimming in the Caribbean. All the animals were hiding behind the rocks.
    You know what they said? Koi kloi ko...in the water see it swimming...

  80. A lot of the aliens built ancient civilization rhetoric is white Lib retardation (at not understanding cultural continuity/effort) &

    German-Christian cope/seeth/racism at being the Obamas of Europe/world history.

    This also applies to German fans like most Slav nationalists who claim to be Indian while pining for German rape gangs ala Teutonic Knights.

    The worst is those who combine the above with a homosexual fascination of niggers।।

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Strong cope post. Your entire ethnic group was founded by Northern European men "civilizing" Dalit women.


    If there is continuity how come none of you look like your Scythian ancestors?


    Scythian mummy:


    https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzL3NhbHRtYW4taXJhbi5qcGciXSxbInAiLCJjb252ZXJ0IiwiIl0sWyJwIiwiY29udmVydCIsIi1xdWFsaXR5IDgxIC1hdXRvLW9yaWVudCJdLFsicCIsInRodW1iIiwiNjAweD4iXV0/saltman-iran.jpg

    Replies: @sher singh, @Jatt Aryaa, @Kent Nationalist

  81. I’m going to go WAY TF out there and admit that my pseudonymous persona did in fact see something utterly inexplicable:

    [MORE]

    I was around 17-18yo. Out ‘garage-hopping’* at 3am in a suburban golf course neighborhood with a partner in crime. We were walking across the course from one dry well in search for the geyser. We were just walking in utter darkness and complete quiet – this was suburbia circa 1984 – when we were illuminated from above. WTF? No sounds. Utter silence you expect on a suburban golf course at 3am. And yet a bright goddamn spotlight shining down on us like a searchlight normally used to promote a used car sale.

    We freaked the fuck out. We ran in abject terror. I can’t say how far or for how long. When we finally stopped and looked back, there was no sign of anything. Utter silence and darkness. We then spent the next several years asking each other, “What the fuck happened? Did you really see that?” We never spoke about it except with the most intimate friends lest we be thought crazy.

    I have been agnostic/atheist since years before the incident above. I never even suspected a religious cause. But I have always wondered, deeply, about the technology that we possess and whether it could do what I have seen…

    It seems ridiculously improbable that we are alone as an intelligence in this universe. It seems equally ridiculously improbable that such an intelligence might shine a light visible to me and thereby announce itself having demonstrated an ability to get here. The Cartman anal probe episode of South Park seems more probable.

    Anyway, that’s my story and I am sticking with it.

    *garage hopping was a GenX trick where we raided rich Boomers’ garage refrigerators of cold beer. Thanks Boomers!

  82. Anyone who believes ANYTHING from the US government is a simp.

    That, seemingly, is the definitive debunking of the UFO/UAP.

    My comment above notwithstanding..

  83. @mal
    @Sick of Orcs

    Chad pigeons display dominance over virgin humans.

    Replies: @Tony massey

    I was swimming in the Caribbean. All the animals were hiding behind the rocks.
    You know what they said? Koi kloi ko…in the water see it swimming…

  84. It’s impressive how those Brownie cameras were built to last.

  85. Thunderfoot (Philip E. Mason) does a pretty good job of debunking these latest UFO sightings…

    It’s all quite frustrating, since I’m certain that once this bubble of interest finally bursts, it will do long term damage to the reputation of legitimate research like SETI.

  86. Klaatu barada nikto

  87. In 1972 while camping with my family at state campground at Big Sur I got up to go to the bathroom and as I approached an completely naked and very attractive blonde woman with big Ta-tas exited and smiled as she passed. A hippie no doubt. The experience, at the time, seemed about as probable and surprising as I imagine seeing an alien or Columbus arriving would be to the Taino. I quickly raced back to the camper to describe the momentous event to my dad. That’s as close as I’ve come to a near miraculous experience of enormous proportions though I have seen a naked blonde with large breasts since then, just not at a state campground bathroom.

  88. @Jatt Aryaa
    A lot of the aliens built ancient civilization rhetoric is white Lib retardation (at not understanding cultural continuity/effort) &

    German-Christian cope/seeth/racism at being the Obamas of Europe/world history.

    This also applies to German fans like most Slav nationalists who claim to be Indian while pining for German rape gangs ala Teutonic Knights.

    The worst is those who combine the above with a homosexual fascination of niggers।।

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    Strong cope post. Your entire ethnic group was founded by Northern European men “civilizing” Dalit women.

    If there is continuity how come none of you look like your Scythian ancestors?

    Scythian mummy:

    • Agree: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @sher singh
    @JohnPlywood

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2021/05/18/all-the-yamnaya-horizon-zone-people-looked-the-same/


    Bronze Age Europeans were not as “fair” as modern Europeans
     

    Indian cattle migrated all the way to Ukraine. By contrast, there is no sign that Western cattle were brought to India: the Aryan invaders were cowherds without cows.
     
    https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2021/04/ever-closer-to-bharopiyasthan-state-of.html?m=1

    Take the bait circumcised Germano-mutt.
    Punjabis & Brahmins r closer to Tajiks/Anatolians than Gujuratis or Biharis by fair margin.
    Imagine recognizing the female lineage or thinking Blonde hair isn't a function of women/latitude

    >civilization
    >Singhs be on Horseback worshipping Swords

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhk2nvqlDb0

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    , @Jatt Aryaa
    @JohnPlywood

    Continuity? Did I speak of such a thing u Phuddu.
    One Singh is worth ੧,੨੫,੦੦੦ Jatt, Hindu, Aleman
    Jatt might fight Hari as form of Rudra yet
    https://twitter.com/Khalsa_Ak47/status/1389724107877539843?s=20

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @JohnPlywood

    They are eternally mad that we are genetically closer to the people of the Vedas than they are.

    They keep inventing new religions (Jains, Buddhists, Hindus) to cope with the fact that their oldest writings describe Aryans massacring their ancestors. There is a reason why sniping Indians have tried to mock and demean Indra since the earliest times.

    The most pathetic race.

    Replies: @sher singh

  89. who is to say that these UFOs are alien (extrasolar) in origin? this isn’t entirely impossible simply because there is no human-known means of FTL travel; who is to say that our understanding of the physical laws is absolute?

    but what about the possibility that these craft are of terrestrial origin, either from an extremely divergent h. sapiens lineage, or a non-human sapient species from earth? what if they are aliens from inside the atmosphere of jupiter?

    there are more things in heaven and earth, etcetera etcetera

  90. @Yevardian

    LinkBookmarkThere’s a good chance aliens exist, perhaps including in our galaxy. However, there are reasons – the Dark Forest theory, the Katechon Hypothesis – for why we should expect them to be paranoid about being detected.
     
    This has always seemed extremely doubtful to me. But an interesting point, I wonder how many people exist, who both don't believe in God OR aliens? In other words, a blunt acceptance that we are almost certainly the *only* intelligent life in the universe, that *has* ever existed, and likely ever *will* exist?
    The number must be vanishingly, microscopically small.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Abelard Lindsey, @Stan D Mute

    how many people exist, who both don’t believe in God OR aliens? In other words, a blunt acceptance that we are almost certainly the *only* intelligent life in the universe, that *has* ever existed, and likely ever *will* exist?

    I would hope that the number is vanishingly small – if one subscribes to the knowledge our species has acquired, it’s virtually inevitable that intelligent life has evolved somewhere somewhen.

    The critical shortcoming in almost all human thought is the human time scale.

    We are like fireflies trying to define the meaning of the buglight..

  91. @Sparkon
    @prime noticer


    1) cell phones and security cameras being everywhere have reduced the number of credible UFO encounters to almost zero.
     
    Cell phone and security cameras are almost entirely unsuitable (useless) for recording images of anything unless it is up close and personal. You can sometimes get an ID of porch pirates with a security camera, but try using your smartphone to capture an image of a high-flying, fast moving bird.

    Virtually no serious wildlife photographer uses a smartphone for imaging. Rather, these guys invest a few grand for a pro or semi-pro quality DSLR with a long lens mounted, commonly 400 mm, and even then, it takes no small measure of skill for the photographer to get the flying bird framed and recorded.

    Replies: @songbird, @prime noticer

    “Cell phone and security cameras are almost entirely unsuitable (useless) for recording images of anything unless it is up close and personal.”

    what would make you say that? i can easily record videos of human aircraft on my cell phone, or track them with binoculars. i live on a hill where lots of stuff flies overhead all the time. especially when stuff is several miles away, flying at night with lights, it produces a pretty clear video.

    indeed, the CLOSER the aircraft is, the harder it is to get into frame. when it’s miles away, flying at 500 mph, it’s not hard to track. helicopters and prop aircraft at 1 or 2 miles distance in particular are easy to track.

    i can get military aircraft at 50,000 to 60,000 feet of elevation on video no problem, and have since the 80s.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
    @prime noticer


    i can get military aircraft at 50,000 to 60,000 feet of elevation on video no problem, and have since the 80s.
     
    You had a cell phone in the '80s? No you didn't. You were using a video camera, and you're trying to move the goalpost.

    Anyway, you're apparently a practiced photographer with 40 years of experience and some measure of skill who seemingly knows what he's doing, and not your average Tom, Dick, or Harriet with a smartphone.

    I find the design of smartphones is not nearly as good for having a phone conversation as the standard telephone with a handset. In fact, I think the design of the smartphone sucks for that purpose.

    Similarly, the design of the smartphone is not nearly as good as a regular camera (still or video) for taking pictures.

    The same holds true for binoculars, which are vastly better than any telescope for tracking flying birds or aircraft. Sitting ducks, of course, are a much easier target.

    Holding the smartphone at arm's length while trying to track a fast moving object at high magnification is very difficult, particularly if the object is moving erratically.

    Sure, zoomed out, it may not be difficult to get a distant bird or aircraft in the frame, but these kinds of wide-angle shots are not very helpful in resolving the details of "stuff" in the sky.

    The same is true for security cameras, which are almost always recording a very wide angle view.
  92. @JohnPlywood
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Strong cope post. Your entire ethnic group was founded by Northern European men "civilizing" Dalit women.


    If there is continuity how come none of you look like your Scythian ancestors?


    Scythian mummy:


    https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzL3NhbHRtYW4taXJhbi5qcGciXSxbInAiLCJjb252ZXJ0IiwiIl0sWyJwIiwiY29udmVydCIsIi1xdWFsaXR5IDgxIC1hdXRvLW9yaWVudCJdLFsicCIsInRodW1iIiwiNjAweD4iXV0/saltman-iran.jpg

    Replies: @sher singh, @Jatt Aryaa, @Kent Nationalist

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2021/05/18/all-the-yamnaya-horizon-zone-people-looked-the-same/

    Bronze Age Europeans were not as “fair” as modern Europeans

    Indian cattle migrated all the way to Ukraine. By contrast, there is no sign that Western cattle were brought to India: the Aryan invaders were cowherds without cows.

    https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2021/04/ever-closer-to-bharopiyasthan-state-of.html?m=1

    Take the bait circumcised Germano-mutt.
    Punjabis & Brahmins r closer to Tajiks/Anatolians than Gujuratis or Biharis by fair margin.
    Imagine recognizing the female lineage or thinking Blonde hair isn’t a function of women/latitude

    >civilization
    >Singhs be on Horseback worshipping Swords

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @sher singh


    Bronze Age Europeans were not as “fair” as modern Europeans
     
    The Western Steppe Herders who took over Europe were fairer than modern Europeans. As were the Bronze Age Asians in your link (Sintashta) and the Andronovo.

    Modern Europeans are darker than their original forefathers, due to mixture with ENF and WHG. Kind of like how Indians are darker than the original Aryans, and Mexicans darker than the Conquistadors....

    Replies: @sher singh

  93. @JohnPlywood
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Strong cope post. Your entire ethnic group was founded by Northern European men "civilizing" Dalit women.


    If there is continuity how come none of you look like your Scythian ancestors?


    Scythian mummy:


    https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzL3NhbHRtYW4taXJhbi5qcGciXSxbInAiLCJjb252ZXJ0IiwiIl0sWyJwIiwiY29udmVydCIsIi1xdWFsaXR5IDgxIC1hdXRvLW9yaWVudCJdLFsicCIsInRodW1iIiwiNjAweD4iXV0/saltman-iran.jpg

    Replies: @sher singh, @Jatt Aryaa, @Kent Nationalist

    Continuity? Did I speak of such a thing u Phuddu.
    One Singh is worth ੧,੨੫,੦੦੦ Jatt, Hindu, Aleman
    Jatt might fight Hari as form of Rudra yet
    https://twitter.com/Khalsa_Ak47/status/1389724107877539843?s=20

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  94. @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian

    And military pilots in France had also said they had experiences with unidentified objects. (https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/70/documents/news-features/declassified-documents/ufo/french_gov_ufo_study.pdf )

    So it seems that pilots' experiences with unusual objects can be quite international across the second half of the 20th century - e.g. in USA, USSR/Russia, France, Yugoslavia.

    That doesn't mean that there can't be a psychological or natural explanation. But there is something that needed to be explained.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Bashibuzuk

    That doesn’t mean that there can’t be a psychological or natural explanation. But there is something that needed to be explained.

    Sure. But as yet, it wasn’t offered.

    In case of UFOs, it is idle to speculate about their motives. It would be like a dog guessing about his owner, human’s motivation.

  95. @sher singh
    @JohnPlywood

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2021/05/18/all-the-yamnaya-horizon-zone-people-looked-the-same/


    Bronze Age Europeans were not as “fair” as modern Europeans
     

    Indian cattle migrated all the way to Ukraine. By contrast, there is no sign that Western cattle were brought to India: the Aryan invaders were cowherds without cows.
     
    https://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2021/04/ever-closer-to-bharopiyasthan-state-of.html?m=1

    Take the bait circumcised Germano-mutt.
    Punjabis & Brahmins r closer to Tajiks/Anatolians than Gujuratis or Biharis by fair margin.
    Imagine recognizing the female lineage or thinking Blonde hair isn't a function of women/latitude

    >civilization
    >Singhs be on Horseback worshipping Swords

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhk2nvqlDb0

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    Bronze Age Europeans were not as “fair” as modern Europeans

    The Western Steppe Herders who took over Europe were fairer than modern Europeans. As were the Bronze Age Asians in your link (Sintashta) and the Andronovo.

    Modern Europeans are darker than their original forefathers, due to mixture with ENF and WHG. Kind of like how Indians are darker than the original Aryans, and Mexicans darker than the Conquistadors….

    • Replies: @sher singh
    @JohnPlywood

    Contradicts most of the studies I've seen, courtesy of you wignats.
    Is knowing the history of made-up genetic groups labeled by Jews your substitute for tribal history?
    Tribal History -> Nationalism -> 23andme on ur mulatto grandkids
    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/
    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @songbird

  96. There’s a good chance aliens exist, perhaps including in our galaxy.

    If you, or anyone reading these words, actually believe this, then you are a ludicrous fool.

  97. @Kratoklastes
    UFOs are like SETI: both depend on a 1950s mentality about technological change.

    Any civilisation that develops interplanetary flight, must necessarily first develop generalised computing.

    Generalised computing advances very quickly (at least exponentially, and perhaps in a 'punctuated double-exponential' fashion). Thus generalised (strong) AI will predictably happen within relatively few biological lifespans after the development of generalised computing.

    Once a society/civilisation achieves strong AI, it makes ZERO sense to send meatbags across interplanetary space... and even less sense to send meatbags across interstellar or intergalactic space. Most of the cost of manned space missions, is developing and furnishing a housing for the meatbags that will enable the meatbags to survive the launch and the trip.

    By contrast to generalised computing, meatbags evolve slowly - and retain shitty characteristics over very long spans of biological generations. The shitty characteristics with regard to interstellar space flight are things like
    - requirements for food, water, breathable gases, rest and waste disposal;
    - vulnerability outside of very narrow ranges of temperature/humidity/radiation/gas mix/impact-shock;
    - built-in degradation (i.e., short lifespans relative to the length of journey).


    So... it can be concluded a priori that any interstellar visitors to our little wet ball of rock, will arrive as strong AI 'virtual personalities' housed in radiation-powered nano-scale devices. They will only need to be O(2) (max 4) biological generations more advanced than the current level of technology in the West, to have the technological prowess to do so.

    And they will be as undetectable to us, as viruses were to the average OrthoHeeb rabbi in a hovel in the 19th century Pale of Settlement.

    Anyone who can't grok that, does not have the cognitive wherewithal to chide anybody about reluctance to participate in the current global vaccine trial.

    Replies: @mal, @El Dato, @Anatoly Karlin, @Eugene Norman, @Joe Paluka, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Interstellar travel distances will be overcome by the creation of a localized time-space that would surround the vehicle that you would be travelling in. That localized section of time-space would then be travelling at light speed or higher and the person travelling in the localized time space would be on earth time and would age at the same rate as on earth. The journey to other stars would take mere days as far as the earth person would be concerned .

  98. @JohnPlywood
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Strong cope post. Your entire ethnic group was founded by Northern European men "civilizing" Dalit women.


    If there is continuity how come none of you look like your Scythian ancestors?


    Scythian mummy:


    https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzL3NhbHRtYW4taXJhbi5qcGciXSxbInAiLCJjb252ZXJ0IiwiIl0sWyJwIiwiY29udmVydCIsIi1xdWFsaXR5IDgxIC1hdXRvLW9yaWVudCJdLFsicCIsInRodW1iIiwiNjAweD4iXV0/saltman-iran.jpg

    Replies: @sher singh, @Jatt Aryaa, @Kent Nationalist

    They are eternally mad that we are genetically closer to the people of the Vedas than they are.

    They keep inventing new religions (Jains, Buddhists, Hindus) to cope with the fact that their oldest writings describe Aryans massacring their ancestors. There is a reason why sniping Indians have tried to mock and demean Indra since the earliest times.

    The most pathetic race.

    • Replies: @sher singh
    @Kent Nationalist

    Tfw, Punjabis are closer to Uzbeks & Azeri than (((Indians))) (no I didn't make the map nor care how)
    Not that it matters, your race is all the heritage you have: no tribe, patriarchy or Pagan religion.
    The snipes Brahmins take at Indra Dev is the same Gods of War v Gods of Order conflict elsewhere.
    Sikhi is fully on the Chaos/War side but you wouldn't know that, unarmed Anglo that youre..
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/781981619073318943/846343183499919370/main-qimg-64fe04b0a7710527ff80ff5957d531c6.png

    Replies: @DNS

  99. @JohnPlywood
    @sher singh


    Bronze Age Europeans were not as “fair” as modern Europeans
     
    The Western Steppe Herders who took over Europe were fairer than modern Europeans. As were the Bronze Age Asians in your link (Sintashta) and the Andronovo.

    Modern Europeans are darker than their original forefathers, due to mixture with ENF and WHG. Kind of like how Indians are darker than the original Aryans, and Mexicans darker than the Conquistadors....

    Replies: @sher singh

    Contradicts most of the studies I’ve seen, courtesy of you wignats.
    Is knowing the history of made-up genetic groups labeled by Jews your substitute for tribal history?
    Tribal History -> Nationalism -> 23andme on ur mulatto grandkids
    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/
    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @sher singh

    ???

    Sounds like you're imagining things. Literally every study connects the intrusion of light skin and blonde hair to Europe by the bronze age steppe nomads, Western Steppe Herders. Even far off populations like Xiaohe in NW China were consistenly lighter than modern Europeans. Scythians were pretty much the lighest of them all, and their lighter pigmentation increases in frequency, rather than decreases, the more easterly Scythian populations are from Europe.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

    , @songbird
    @sher singh

    HBDChick is occasionally a complete retard, as when she says the below:


    By the 11th century, with the adoption of the so-called canon-law method of computing consanguinity, these proscriptions had been extended even to sixth cousins, including by marriage.
     
    That is not how they calculated consanguinity. Medieval peasants did not know who their sixth cousins were, nor likely did kings - it is ridiculous on its face. We don't even know them now, with better records.

    Seven degrees of consanguinity translates to third cousins, not sixth cousins!

    Replies: @Not only wrathful, @Jatt Aryaa

  100. @Kent Nationalist
    @JohnPlywood

    They are eternally mad that we are genetically closer to the people of the Vedas than they are.

    They keep inventing new religions (Jains, Buddhists, Hindus) to cope with the fact that their oldest writings describe Aryans massacring their ancestors. There is a reason why sniping Indians have tried to mock and demean Indra since the earliest times.

    The most pathetic race.

    Replies: @sher singh

    Tfw, Punjabis are closer to Uzbeks & Azeri than (((Indians))) (no I didn’t make the map nor care how)
    Not that it matters, your race is all the heritage you have: no tribe, patriarchy or Pagan religion.
    The snipes Brahmins take at Indra Dev is the same Gods of War v Gods of Order conflict elsewhere.
    Sikhi is fully on the Chaos/War side but you wouldn’t know that, unarmed Anglo that youre..

    • Replies: @DNS
    @sher singh

    https://i.imgur.com/AwRCfY6.jpg

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

  101. @sher singh
    @JohnPlywood

    Contradicts most of the studies I've seen, courtesy of you wignats.
    Is knowing the history of made-up genetic groups labeled by Jews your substitute for tribal history?
    Tribal History -> Nationalism -> 23andme on ur mulatto grandkids
    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/
    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @songbird

    ???

    Sounds like you’re imagining things. Literally every study connects the intrusion of light skin and blonde hair to Europe by the bronze age steppe nomads, Western Steppe Herders. Even far off populations like Xiaohe in NW China were consistenly lighter than modern Europeans. Scythians were pretty much the lighest of them all, and their lighter pigmentation increases in frequency, rather than decreases, the more easterly Scythian populations are from Europe.

    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @JohnPlywood

    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_culture.shtml#Phenotypes

    My identity isn't based on color so you have way more fucks to give.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/09/12/the-sintashta-were-swarthy/

    You have it backwards, they started off looking like Meds or Afghans and got lighter over time.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/01/10/are-haryana-jats-the-closest-living-descendents-of-our-vedic-forefathers/

    Replies: @Zastavan

  102. @songbird
    @Servant of Gla'aki


    About a century ago, a frozen-solid alligator fell to Earth in Massachusetts.
     
    Don't believe I ever heard that story. I'd immediately guess it artificially frozen and thrown onto some street.

    I think twisters throw stuff outward, much more than upward, so that's one reason I'm a skeptic about raining animals. Though I doubt we understand all natural phenomena. For example, I doubt that anyone conceived of limnic eruptions, even fifty years ago.

    Replies: @Ray P

    The Mad Fishmonger has a cousin who prefers frozen ‘gators.

  103. As soon as I saw that supposed alien craft rotate in place and that didn’t change it’s trajectory, I knew the video was faked.

    Anything that travels in air has to take air resistance into consideration. Nothing can rotate and not be thrown off course by air acting on the object.

    I also watched this video:

    She’s trying to say that the rotating object is in some other dimension. That’s just more bullshit from the same crowd that gets its funding for black holes, neutron stars, gravitational waves, etc. She’s even wearing a JPL shirt.

    This is a scam for more MONEY for the quacks masquerading as scientists and for the MIC.

  104. @JohnPlywood
    @sher singh

    ???

    Sounds like you're imagining things. Literally every study connects the intrusion of light skin and blonde hair to Europe by the bronze age steppe nomads, Western Steppe Herders. Even far off populations like Xiaohe in NW China were consistenly lighter than modern Europeans. Scythians were pretty much the lighest of them all, and their lighter pigmentation increases in frequency, rather than decreases, the more easterly Scythian populations are from Europe.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_culture.shtml#Phenotypes

    My identity isn’t based on color so you have way more fucks to give.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/09/12/the-sintashta-were-swarthy/

    You have it backwards, they started off looking like Meds or Afghans and got lighter over time.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/01/10/are-haryana-jats-the-closest-living-descendents-of-our-vedic-forefathers/

    • Replies: @Zastavan
    @Jatt Aryaa

    No, these blogs are making stuff up to appease their (largely Indian and South-European) audiences. The actual studies say they were light.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Steppe_Herders#Physical_appearance


    The Western Steppe Herders are believed to have been light-skinned and had a variety of eye colors, including dark eyes and blue eyes.[26][27]

    The Western Steppe Herders carried an allele that is responsible for the expression of classical European blond hair. Geneticist David Reich said that this allele first appeared in Central Asia, and that the massive migration of Western Steppe Herders brought this trait to Europe, explaining why there are millions of copies of this SNP in modern Europeans.[28] Gavin Evans has likewise stated that the "all-conquering" Western Steppe Herders were responsible for the transmission of this allele in to the dark haired native populations of Europe.[29] In 2020, a study suggested that ancestry from Western Steppe Pastoralists was responsible for lightening the skin and hair color of modern Europeans, having a dominant effect on the phenotype of Northern Europeans, in particular.[30]
     

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

  105. @S

    There’s a good chance aliens exist, perhaps including in our galaxy.
     
    I think they probably exist, too.

    What's concerning to me is the context and timing of the recent announcements by the US government about UFO's. I include in my skepticism the 'crop circle phenomena' of the UK of the past few decades as well.

    There were multiple sci-fi TV episodes back in the 60's in the US that had 'progressive' scientists faking UFO alien contact/invasions to help in 'unifying the Earth'...for 'everyone's good' naturally. One of these sci-fi tv prog scientists, pretending to be an alien, wound up being mistaken as a bear by a rural hunter in upstate New York and fatally shot. I suppose there's a message in there somewhere.

    Ronald Reagan gave a speech to the UN suggesting how unifying to the world it would be if an alien invasion took place, almost as if he was wishing it would happen.

    There are those on this Earth who will say, do, or attempt anything, to achieve ever more wealth and power.

    Replies: @Realist, @Sick 'n Tired

    Alex Jones has been talking about human hybrid Chimeras for quite some time. Where labs were combining humans with pigs. Take a couple of these hybrids, put them in a fake UFO and drop it from the air around a city and let it crash. With today’s cell phone technology, the video would go viral in seconds, and people would think aliens exist and willingly give up whatever freedom they have left to the government. This is why they have been planting these stories in the media for the last year or so.

    • Replies: @S
    @Sick 'n Tired

    Yes, while as stated, I think aliens probably do indeed exist, within the current context the 'UFO' thing would be a quite useful tool as part of a larger 'bag of tricks' by nefarious actors to 'stampede' people into giving up what little sovereignty they may still have left.

    People should be extremely weary of any such claims by the US government.

  106. Bashibuzuk says:

    “President Obama says there is footage and records of objects in the skies — these unidentified aerial phenomena — and he says we don’t know exactly what they are. What do you think that it is?” a reporter asked Biden near the end of a joint press conference with South Korean President Moon Jae-in on Friday. Biden brushed off the question in his trademark almost-but-not-quite-lucid way with the comment “I would ask him again,” and hustled off the stage.

    https://caityjohnstone.medium.com/everything-keeps-getting-weirder-and-weirder-84452bccee39

  107. S says:
    @mal
    @Kratoklastes


    Any civilisation that develops interplanetary flight, must necessarily first develop generalised computing.
     
    Not necessarily. I mean, pigeons build and operate highly advanced quantum computers for navigation purposes (we still don't understand exactly how they work, but basic idea boils down to pigeons visualizing planetary magnetic field lines by counting the distribution of quantum entangled electron spin numbers). Here is an article that describes the idea:
    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/birds-quantum-entanglement/

    This tech is far more advanced than anything humans have ever invented. I mean, to this day we don't understand how it works. And i would say its specialized rather than generalized. And supply chain for those pigeon computers is mostly local unlike human tech which literally requires an entire planet to take part in its creation (silicon metal from Brasil, refineries in US and Japan, conductors sourced in Europe etc).

    Earth is weird in a sense that it has high gravity and from evolutionary point of view of multicellular organism it is too costly and not worth it to go to space. But of course, such limitations would not apply to life evolving in the depths of liquid oceans in some moon systems out there.

    So if for Earth, evolutionarily speaking, top technology would be planetary navigation based on pigeon quantum computers, such limitation would not apply to other more permissive environments. Due to lower delta v requirements, moon systems will favor evolving life with far greater technological adaptations than Earth based pigeons. No need for staging means interplanetary travel is possible and relatively easy.

    So i can see moon ocean alien squids evolving quantum entanglement based sensors first, like the pigeons, and then extending technogical leaps even further beyond our human understanding. And becoming interstellar species in the process.

    Replies: @Sick of Orcs, @S, @S

    So i can see moon ocean alien squids evolving quantum entanglement based sensors first, like the pigeons, and then extending technogical leaps even further beyond our human understanding. And becoming interstellar species in the process.

    https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/63976/original-war-worlds-illustrations-auction

  108. @Eugene Norman
    @Kratoklastes


    Once a society/civilisation achieves strong AI, it makes ZERO sense to send meatbags across interplanetary space…
     
    Don’t see why the AI isn’t travelling across space, though.

    AI is not inevitable. Since computers started it’s been predicted in the next generation. Hollywood is all over this from HAL on. And we have Siri.

    If anything the rate of change of computing power is slowing and computing power isn’t enough anyway. To create a conscious machine we have to understand consciousness.

    Replies: @Wency

    I generally agree.

    The stat I found, which continues to make sense to me, is that the cost-adjusted productivity of computers has been improving by 2%/year since 2010 or so, compared to 20%+/year in the core years of the 1990s – early 2000s. This seems to make more sense to me than the observation that Moore’s Law technically still holds, since my lying eyes tell me that computing devices only marginally improved in the past decade, compared to the amazing advances in the decades before.

    Basically, once clock speed stopped improving, all the various processor features like adding more cores or improving the cache haven’t had nearly the same impact, but a lot of people seem to be pretending this isn’t true. It looks to me like we’re basically approaching an asymptote with hardware in the next two decades or so, where progress will slow until individual computing devices can’t really be improved upon in a way anyone would notice (aside from making them more specialized), and the only way to scale up is to spend more money and build ever-larger server farms or supercomputers.

    All that said, computers still seem to be improving a lot faster than outer space propulsion systems, and on that basis, general AI still seems to be the more practical of the two achievements. But I’m leaning towards thinking that both are practically impossible, and that this solves the Fermi Paradox. I’m certainly not convinced by any solution that suggests aliens (or their AI) could have colonized the entire galaxy, including our world, but have chosen not to do so. Sooner or later, something would fill the vacuum, if it could.

    • Agree: dfordoom
  109. @sher singh
    @Kent Nationalist

    Tfw, Punjabis are closer to Uzbeks & Azeri than (((Indians))) (no I didn't make the map nor care how)
    Not that it matters, your race is all the heritage you have: no tribe, patriarchy or Pagan religion.
    The snipes Brahmins take at Indra Dev is the same Gods of War v Gods of Order conflict elsewhere.
    Sikhi is fully on the Chaos/War side but you wouldn't know that, unarmed Anglo that youre..
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/781981619073318943/846343183499919370/main-qimg-64fe04b0a7710527ff80ff5957d531c6.png

    Replies: @DNS

    • LOL: Jatt Aryaa
    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @DNS

    In case anyone falls for this, the bust on the left is a reconstruction of a Western Steppe Herder, and the two images of the brown guy are the digital work of a pseudonymous guy (PhillipEdwin) on DeviantArt.com.

    In addition to getting the pigmentation completely wrong (he was blonde and light skinned), he clearly altered the facial features as well, to suit his fetish. Interestingly he seems to acknowledge now that his reconstructions of the Steppe men were inaccurate, albeit in a "save-face" way (he mistakenly assumes any studies ever said the Yamnaya were dark haired).

  110. S says:
    @mal
    @Kratoklastes


    Any civilisation that develops interplanetary flight, must necessarily first develop generalised computing.
     
    Not necessarily. I mean, pigeons build and operate highly advanced quantum computers for navigation purposes (we still don't understand exactly how they work, but basic idea boils down to pigeons visualizing planetary magnetic field lines by counting the distribution of quantum entangled electron spin numbers). Here is an article that describes the idea:
    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/birds-quantum-entanglement/

    This tech is far more advanced than anything humans have ever invented. I mean, to this day we don't understand how it works. And i would say its specialized rather than generalized. And supply chain for those pigeon computers is mostly local unlike human tech which literally requires an entire planet to take part in its creation (silicon metal from Brasil, refineries in US and Japan, conductors sourced in Europe etc).

    Earth is weird in a sense that it has high gravity and from evolutionary point of view of multicellular organism it is too costly and not worth it to go to space. But of course, such limitations would not apply to life evolving in the depths of liquid oceans in some moon systems out there.

    So if for Earth, evolutionarily speaking, top technology would be planetary navigation based on pigeon quantum computers, such limitation would not apply to other more permissive environments. Due to lower delta v requirements, moon systems will favor evolving life with far greater technological adaptations than Earth based pigeons. No need for staging means interplanetary travel is possible and relatively easy.

    So i can see moon ocean alien squids evolving quantum entanglement based sensors first, like the pigeons, and then extending technogical leaps even further beyond our human understanding. And becoming interstellar species in the process.

    Replies: @Sick of Orcs, @S, @S

    That is an interesting angle.

    Grey whales were making ocean going inter-continental journeys of 10-12 thousand miles between Russia and Baja California well before the time humans could make such trips. Could creatures similarly theoretically naturally evolve to make space going trips, ie initially ‘migrations’ of some type, perhaps at first to nearby planets like the whales and pigeons do through the water and the air to near by continents, without the need of external craft and protective clothing?

    As far I know in the case of the Earth there is no sign of this occurring, though, I’ve never really gotten into UFO’olgy. It would be interesting to know just how many of the UFO reports of ‘aliens’ don’t involve external ‘space craft’, or, ‘space suits’.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/whale-migration-2291902

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @songbird
    @S

    Whale migrations are interesting because, in many cases, it appears that they are migrating to the tropics which is an area of less resources, if one eats plankton. Apparently, one idea is that it has something to do with their skin.

    I don't know, if I could see migrating space animals though. Life would probably need to begin on planet, and it would be hard to get off such a planet, where it could evolve. Once you got into space, there would not seem to be much of a seasonal motivation to move.

    In addition, interstellar travel would probably require at least some kind of nuclear fusion and electrical generation. If life is the result of a twister going through a junkyard enough times and assembling a 747, then assembling a cold fusion reactor seems orders of magnitudes more difficult.

    Though, maybe someone could make space animals? But then wouldn't there be a danger of them using up all the resources and wrecking the galaxy for other life? But maybe, something like panspermia could be engineered.

    Replies: @S

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @S

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceWhale

    Replies: @S

  111. Bashibuzuk says:

    The 1989 – 1991 wave of UFO sightings in USSR has coincided with the fall of the Soviet Union. There were rumors of UFOs being able to put down the Soviet air defense radars. Among the most famous of these sightings was the one in Tbilisi filmed by a TV crew which was initially there to film a popular Georgian singer:

    http://www.myvideo.ge/?CIA=1&ci_d=mobile&ci_c=mobile&ci_m=video&video_id=2104247

    BTW, I personally had seen two unidentified aerial phenomena, one in MENA and one in North America. Both times, I was not alone and people who were with me saw them as well and couldn’t explain what was exactly happening. In MENA, we were three people driving in a car and the driver tried to stop to have a better view, other cars around us also started trying to park, so we were not the only ones observing this thing flying above. It all went very fast, I had the impression that the thing was somewhat triangular in shape, hid a kind of flame or very bright light surrounding it and was probably at least as big as our car, although it was difficult to judge how high exactly it was flying.

    In North America, we were four people having a drink outside in the early night hours (around perhaps 10:00 pm), the shining thing changed direction at an uncanny angle, entered a cloud and didn’t reappear. It was clearly flying higher than the cloud.

    For both cases, I have no idea what it was, all I know is that it was rather strange and that people around me saw the same thing I did.

    • Thanks: S
    • Replies: @S
    @Bashibuzuk


    The 1989 – 1991 wave of UFO sightings in USSR has coincided with the fall of the Soviet Union.
     
    Do you happen to recall the 1984 Salyut 7 incident described below, or have any insight into it?

    Around 1990 this was reported in the United States. What was fascinating about it at the time was how this allegedly occurred during officially atheistic Soviet times, but the term 'angels' was consistently used in the news reports.

    The Salyut 7 wiki entry says nothing on it. Did the astronauts ever denounce that it occurred, or, was it all simply fantasy?



    https://www.techeblog.com/mind-blowing-story-of-russian-cosmonauts-who-saw-angels-in-space/

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @Dmitry
    @Bashibuzuk

    It happened when there was a collapse of power, so it likely relates to the openess and visibility of the topic, rather than that was actually more people seeing UFOs.

    In 1960s-1970s, Feliks Zigel had collected hundreds of reports of UFOs, many from military pilots.

    So it has been a consistent reality (the most serious pilots seeing UFOs) for many decades, but the change seems to be more in the visibility of the topic, and that seemed to vary more with the decades and their political changes.


    French Army unit responsible for NBC defense. This guy has told me a few years ago that his friends among the veterans of the same unit were discussing a strange situation where a “UFO landing site” somewhere in France was supposedly inspected by the unit in question before all the findings got confiscated by some “men
     
    This seemed to be a consistent feature of more plausible sounding reports in the Western countries.

    For example, children have seen a UFO in the city Melbourne inside Australia in 1966. In response, the Australian police or military officials, had bullied the children, and told them not to talk about it. The woman said at 9:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPHVvg-dXOs

    This kind of story becomes an increasingly valid mystery with each decade, as 55 years later the most advanced aerospace technology that has been public in Australia is just airforce's F-18 planes.

  112. @Sick 'n Tired
    @S

    Alex Jones has been talking about human hybrid Chimeras for quite some time. Where labs were combining humans with pigs. Take a couple of these hybrids, put them in a fake UFO and drop it from the air around a city and let it crash. With today's cell phone technology, the video would go viral in seconds, and people would think aliens exist and willingly give up whatever freedom they have left to the government. This is why they have been planting these stories in the media for the last year or so.

    Replies: @S

    Yes, while as stated, I think aliens probably do indeed exist, within the current context the ‘UFO’ thing would be a quite useful tool as part of a larger ‘bag of tricks’ by nefarious actors to ‘stampede’ people into giving up what little sovereignty they may still have left.

    People should be extremely weary of any such claims by the US government.

  113. @sher singh
    @JohnPlywood

    Contradicts most of the studies I've seen, courtesy of you wignats.
    Is knowing the history of made-up genetic groups labeled by Jews your substitute for tribal history?
    Tribal History -> Nationalism -> 23andme on ur mulatto grandkids
    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/
    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @songbird

    HBDChick is occasionally a complete retard, as when she says the below:

    By the 11th century, with the adoption of the so-called canon-law method of computing consanguinity, these proscriptions had been extended even to sixth cousins, including by marriage.

    That is not how they calculated consanguinity. Medieval peasants did not know who their sixth cousins were, nor likely did kings – it is ridiculous on its face. We don’t even know them now, with better records.

    Seven degrees of consanguinity translates to third cousins, not sixth cousins!

    • Replies: @Not only wrathful
    @songbird

    I would have to check that my mate was not descended from one of my great great great grandparent's siblings?

    Or we'd have to check all of our 128 ancestors in the line above that to make sure there was no match up...I think

    Lol

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Jatt Aryaa
    @songbird

    I'm a simple man I see something that says honored killing bad, I call it gay.

    The original comment was bait dor Altan & Bashi..

    Replies: @songbird, @Bashibuzuk

  114. @prime noticer
    @Sparkon

    "Cell phone and security cameras are almost entirely unsuitable (useless) for recording images of anything unless it is up close and personal."

    what would make you say that? i can easily record videos of human aircraft on my cell phone, or track them with binoculars. i live on a hill where lots of stuff flies overhead all the time. especially when stuff is several miles away, flying at night with lights, it produces a pretty clear video.

    indeed, the CLOSER the aircraft is, the harder it is to get into frame. when it's miles away, flying at 500 mph, it's not hard to track. helicopters and prop aircraft at 1 or 2 miles distance in particular are easy to track.

    i can get military aircraft at 50,000 to 60,000 feet of elevation on video no problem, and have since the 80s.

    Replies: @Sparkon

    i can get military aircraft at 50,000 to 60,000 feet of elevation on video no problem, and have since the 80s.

    You had a cell phone in the ’80s? No you didn’t. You were using a video camera, and you’re trying to move the goalpost.

    Anyway, you’re apparently a practiced photographer with 40 years of experience and some measure of skill who seemingly knows what he’s doing, and not your average Tom, Dick, or Harriet with a smartphone.

    I find the design of smartphones is not nearly as good for having a phone conversation as the standard telephone with a handset. In fact, I think the design of the smartphone sucks for that purpose.

    Similarly, the design of the smartphone is not nearly as good as a regular camera (still or video) for taking pictures.

    The same holds true for binoculars, which are vastly better than any telescope for tracking flying birds or aircraft. Sitting ducks, of course, are a much easier target.

    Holding the smartphone at arm’s length while trying to track a fast moving object at high magnification is very difficult, particularly if the object is moving erratically.

    Sure, zoomed out, it may not be difficult to get a distant bird or aircraft in the frame, but these kinds of wide-angle shots are not very helpful in resolving the details of “stuff” in the sky.

    The same is true for security cameras, which are almost always recording a very wide angle view.

  115. @VR O'Mahony
    I have read a fair bit about Roswell, and neither DoD nor the scientists can offer a believable alternative to "a flying saucer crashed". Perhaps the biggest stumbling block is that trivial facts about reports from 1947 are still classified, and when President Carter asked to see the stuff BEHIND Project Blue Book, Carter was told he didn't have a "need to know".

    That is, if we're just talking about weather balloons for a dead end spy project, what is more secret about the "weather balloons" than that they existed, but the project was silly. Among other things, no "weather balloon" could have survived a flight across the Atlantic. And so any real spy balloons would have been launched from Turkey or Finland.

    But I wander. DoD still chases UFOs all over the world, and then marks the reports SECRET. At the same time, NASA wants us to believe that there is life, especially INTELLIGENT life, in outer space. NASA offers no EVIDENCE for what is their RELIGIOUS belief in little green men who do NOT travel in flying saucers.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    when President Carter asked to see the stuff BEHIND Project Blue Book, Carter was told he didn’t have a “need to know”

    Source?

  116. @Sparkon
    @E. Harding


    Funny how UFOs became a notable phenomenon right around when planes, rockets, and weather balloons became widespread.
     
    No, that's a misconception. There was a big wave of "airship" sightings in the 1880s and 1890s, peaking in 1896-97, but continuing into the early 20th century.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_airship

    Additionally, there are ancient reports of "flying shields" and other such oddities.


    The year is 329 B.C. Alexander the Great is leading his army on a quest to conquer the known world. As he is preparing his army to cross the Indus River to attack the Indian Army, Alexander and all his troops watch in awe as two “great shining silvery shields spitting fire around the rims” seem to emerge from the heavens. These two “shields” dive repeatedly at his army until the war elephants, horses, and men all panicked and refused to cross the river where the horrendous incident occurred. The two “flying shields” disappeared into the sky as quickly as they had appeared.
     
    https://www.123helpme.com/essay/Alexander-the-Great-222118

    Indeed, “flying shields” appear in the ancient folklore of many people, including the American Hopi tribe, and flying objects called vimanas appear in ancient Hindu texts.

    https://runelore.it/en/world-news/791-ufo-shields-hopi.html

    And what really happened at Fatima in 1917?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

    In truth there are many mysteries of the universe, but if you want to set yourself up for ridicule, study or interest in UFOs will get you there.

    Religion is OK of course, because Jesus. I think one recent poll showed over 70% of Americans believe in angels.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-nearly-8-in-10-americans-believe-in-angels/

    I try to keep an open mind and agnostic attitude based on my assumption that our ignorance exceeds our knowledge about the universe and the purpose of life, and my belief that H. sapiens is not a good candidate for being the preeminent sapient species in the universe.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    https://www.123helpme.com/essay/Alexander-the-Great-222118

    This appears to be a link to a child’s short essay for school. I am confused

    • Replies: @Sparkon
    @Triteleia Laxa

    Yes, it's not a good source, but it gives the outlines of the tale, which should be familiar to students of UFO lore.


    "Alexander the Great was not the first to see them nor was he the first to find them troublesome. He tells of two strange craft that dived repeatedly at his army until the war elephants, the men, and the horses all panicked and refused to cross the river where the incident occurred. What did the things look like? His historian describes them as great shining silvery shields, spitting fire around the rims... things that came from the skies and returned to the skies."
    (Edwards, Frank. Stranger than Science. New York: Lyle Stuart, 1959).
     
    http://deliyannis.blogspot.com/2009/11/alexander-great-and-ufos.html?m=1


    Vallee and fellow researcher Chris Aubeck also delve into longstanding UFO legends that they've excluded from their list for various reasons. For example, take the story about Alexander the Great seeing a flying object that shot out a blaster ray. "We traced the story and discovered it was about the use of gunpowder, not an unexplained flying object," Aubeck and Vallee write.
     
    https://www.nbcnews.com/science/cosmic-log/sleuths-study-ancient-ufos-flna6c10403696
  117. @Shortsword
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAopNJMbFEI

    USA and UK seem to be particularly obsessed about UFOs.

    Replies: @S, @Almost Missouri, @songbird, @Triteleia Laxa

    USA and UK seem to be particularly obsessed about UFOs.

    Or super-intelligent aliens chose to visit the superior peoples!

  118. Bashibuzuk says:

    FWIW, Russian Orthodox Church has published an official guidance on UFOs where it stated two things: A) One should stay clear and as far away as possible from any supposed UFO B) What we today consider Aliens are in fact demons.

    https://ria.ru/20200418/1570246437.html

    Although this opinion of ROC has been discussed recently, the official opinion of the ROC about the UFOs / Aliens has been formulated by the mid 90ies after a large wave of sightings of UFOs in the late 80ies – early 90ies across the fUSSR.

    Today around 45% of RusFed citizens believe in the existence of extraterrestrial life forms, back then it was way higher because the “UFO sightings ” were communicated quite often in Soviet mass media.

    Interestingly, among the major religions Islam believes in a plurality of inhabited worlds/dimensions as does Buddhism which considers that there is a high number of Buddha Worlds inhabited by sentient beings as numerous as “the grains of sand on the Ganges’ riverbanks “. Islam broadly aligns with the interpretation of the ROC because the inhabitants of other “worlds” are Jinns. However, in Islam Jinns are not necessarily all evil. In Buddhism the sentient beings accross the Universe all have the same basic nature. Although I am not that knowledgeable in Jewish tradition, I have read that the Kabbalah also agrees that there are other “worlds” / planes of existence with their own inhabitants either “angels” or “demons”.

    We can conclude that the belief in outwordly “beings” and “encounters ” is nothing new in human mythology. The only thing new is that we now believe that they come from “other planets” and fly in out skies in some “advanced technology ” machines. This is of course simply due to our postmodern technicicist mindset.

    • Replies: @Morton's toes
    @Bashibuzuk

    See Nick Land! Knowledge is foremost the starting block for deeper unknowing and it won't ever end. Demons works as good as any.

    , @Dmitry
    @Bashibuzuk

    Because people often explain things according to the fashionable things of their times.

    For example, Karlin has claimed that reality is a "computer simulation". The reason is because computers were the fashionable new technology that arrived in ordinary consumer hands in the decade of his youth.

    If it was the 19th century, people might say that the reality was produced by some steam-powered machine (or if he was in China - a result of opium).

    That's not to say that the metaphors are not always notuseful ones. For example, electronics and computers are exploits from logic, and logic will also apply outside of human things. So the metaphors from computer science and electronic engineering, can be valid to discuss aspects of the world which are not part of human culture - as it ultimately is talking about formal logic, and logic binds also the nonhuman world as the merely human one.


    belief in outwordly “beings” and “encounters ” is nothing new in human mythology. The only thing new is that we now believe that they come from “other planets” and fly in out skies in some “advanced technology ” machine

     

    There is something new in the modern world, in the revolution of knowledge (adjusting upwards in size and scale). in our understanding of the universe, and our understanding of the lowering importance of man (man's centrality to the universe, being "lowered" with each century).

    That is not to say that modern scientific knowledge is anything very advanced, but it is a new stage in human history, and that we are able to follow to the extent of reducing our egos has been a merit to the modern world (with apologies to Giordano Bruno et al).

    E.g. For many generations, man had a mythological concept of the moon as a god or goddess watching over us. (Although of course thoughtful people in ancient times like Ptolemy have understood that this was not true).

    Until recently, might have imagined that earth was unique, but there are now believed to be perhaps hundreds of billions of habitable planets in a universe.

    While all it speculation, it would seem statistically very implausible that there are not many more habitats, and probably exist species much more impressive than our own one.

    The idea of travel between stars should be implausible under the current knowledge of physics, although the idea of very many existing habitats should be very plausible.

    A last hope that should protect our egos from having to experience a possibility that we are not the height of creation, is the distances involved that should make travel between stars implausible. So assuming there is not a problem with the current understanding of physics (which we can't say certainly), then man's ego should be safe for now from the experience of not being the apex of the animals.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  119. @songbird
    @sher singh

    HBDChick is occasionally a complete retard, as when she says the below:


    By the 11th century, with the adoption of the so-called canon-law method of computing consanguinity, these proscriptions had been extended even to sixth cousins, including by marriage.
     
    That is not how they calculated consanguinity. Medieval peasants did not know who their sixth cousins were, nor likely did kings - it is ridiculous on its face. We don't even know them now, with better records.

    Seven degrees of consanguinity translates to third cousins, not sixth cousins!

    Replies: @Not only wrathful, @Jatt Aryaa

    I would have to check that my mate was not descended from one of my great great great grandparent’s siblings?

    Or we’d have to check all of our 128 ancestors in the line above that to make sure there was no match up…I think

    Lol

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Not only wrathful


    I would have to check that my mate was not descended from one of my great great great grandparent’s siblings?
     
    I think it would be from their first cousins, rather than from their siblings.

    Though, under the real system, you could get dispensations and still marry some of your prohibited relations. Seems like marrying one's second or third cousin was not super rare, though first cousins marrying was kind of rare in most places.
  120. @Triteleia Laxa
    @Sparkon


    https://www.123helpme.com/essay/Alexander-the-Great-222118
     
    This appears to be a link to a child's short essay for school. I am confused

    Replies: @Sparkon

    Yes, it’s not a good source, but it gives the outlines of the tale, which should be familiar to students of UFO lore.

    “Alexander the Great was not the first to see them nor was he the first to find them troublesome. He tells of two strange craft that dived repeatedly at his army until the war elephants, the men, and the horses all panicked and refused to cross the river where the incident occurred. What did the things look like? His historian describes them as great shining silvery shields, spitting fire around the rims… things that came from the skies and returned to the skies.”
    (Edwards, Frank. Stranger than Science. New York: Lyle Stuart, 1959).

    http://deliyannis.blogspot.com/2009/11/alexander-great-and-ufos.html?m=1

    Vallee and fellow researcher Chris Aubeck also delve into longstanding UFO legends that they’ve excluded from their list for various reasons. For example, take the story about Alexander the Great seeing a flying object that shot out a blaster ray. “We traced the story and discovered it was about the use of gunpowder, not an unexplained flying object,” Aubeck and Vallee write.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/science/cosmic-log/sleuths-study-ancient-ufos-flna6c10403696

    • Thanks: Triteleia Laxa
  121. @S
    @mal

    That is an interesting angle.

    Grey whales were making ocean going inter-continental journeys of 10-12 thousand miles between Russia and Baja California well before the time humans could make such trips. Could creatures similarly theoretically naturally evolve to make space going trips, ie initially 'migrations' of some type, perhaps at first to nearby planets like the whales and pigeons do through the water and the air to near by continents, without the need of external craft and protective clothing?

    As far I know in the case of the Earth there is no sign of this occurring, though, I've never really gotten into UFO'olgy. It would be interesting to know just how many of the UFO reports of 'aliens' don't involve external 'space craft', or, 'space suits'.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/whale-migration-2291902

    Replies: @songbird, @Anatoly Karlin

    Whale migrations are interesting because, in many cases, it appears that they are migrating to the tropics which is an area of less resources, if one eats plankton. Apparently, one idea is that it has something to do with their skin.

    I don’t know, if I could see migrating space animals though. Life would probably need to begin on planet, and it would be hard to get off such a planet, where it could evolve. Once you got into space, there would not seem to be much of a seasonal motivation to move.

    In addition, interstellar travel would probably require at least some kind of nuclear fusion and electrical generation. If life is the result of a twister going through a junkyard enough times and assembling a 747, then assembling a cold fusion reactor seems orders of magnitudes more difficult.

    Though, maybe someone could make space animals? But then wouldn’t there be a danger of them using up all the resources and wrecking the galaxy for other life? But maybe, something like panspermia could be engineered.

    • Replies: @S
    @songbird


    I don’t know, if I could see migrating space animals though. Life would probably need to begin on planet, and it would be hard to get off such a planet, where it could evolve...
     
    I see what you're saying.

    Space would be a tough nut to crack. It's probably difficult enough for an earthbound creature to evolve the specialization of flight through air and swimming in water. The vacuum of space, with its extreme environments, may in reality ultimately prove a barrier that is simply too much (generally) for natural evolution to overcome, whatever the creature's planet of origin.

    Humans have done so because we have our minds and can (to an extent) control our environment.

    Replies: @songbird, @mal

  122. S says:
    @Bashibuzuk
    The 1989 - 1991 wave of UFO sightings in USSR has coincided with the fall of the Soviet Union. There were rumors of UFOs being able to put down the Soviet air defense radars. Among the most famous of these sightings was the one in Tbilisi filmed by a TV crew which was initially there to film a popular Georgian singer:

    http://www.myvideo.ge/?CIA=1&ci_d=mobile&ci_c=mobile&ci_m=video&video_id=2104247

    BTW, I personally had seen two unidentified aerial phenomena, one in MENA and one in North America. Both times, I was not alone and people who were with me saw them as well and couldn't explain what was exactly happening. In MENA, we were three people driving in a car and the driver tried to stop to have a better view, other cars around us also started trying to park, so we were not the only ones observing this thing flying above. It all went very fast, I had the impression that the thing was somewhat triangular in shape, hid a kind of flame or very bright light surrounding it and was probably at least as big as our car, although it was difficult to judge how high exactly it was flying.

    In North America, we were four people having a drink outside in the early night hours (around perhaps 10:00 pm), the shining thing changed direction at an uncanny angle, entered a cloud and didn't reappear. It was clearly flying higher than the cloud.

    For both cases, I have no idea what it was, all I know is that it was rather strange and that people around me saw the same thing I did.

    Replies: @S, @Dmitry

    The 1989 – 1991 wave of UFO sightings in USSR has coincided with the fall of the Soviet Union.

    Do you happen to recall the 1984 Salyut 7 incident described below, or have any insight into it?

    Around 1990 this was reported in the United States. What was fascinating about it at the time was how this allegedly occurred during officially atheistic Soviet times, but the term ‘angels’ was consistently used in the news reports.

    The Salyut 7 wiki entry says nothing on it. Did the astronauts ever denounce that it occurred, or, was it all simply fantasy?

    https://www.techeblog.com/mind-blowing-story-of-russian-cosmonauts-who-saw-angels-in-space/

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @S

    No I have never heard about this "angels" story. But I have once had a conversation with an Arab Wahhabi-Salafi imbecile who has quite seriously told me that Yuri Gagarin was killed by the KGB because he supposedly heard the Islamic call to prayer during his flight and converted to the Din. This is of course pure anti-Soviet propaganda of the lowest kind.

    Replies: @S

  123. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian

    And military pilots in France had also said they had experiences with unidentified objects. (https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/70/documents/news-features/declassified-documents/ufo/french_gov_ufo_study.pdf )

    So it seems that pilots' experiences with unusual objects can be quite international across the second half of the 20th century - e.g. in USA, USSR/Russia, France, Yugoslavia.

    That doesn't mean that there can't be a psychological or natural explanation. But there is something that needed to be explained.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Bashibuzuk

    Someone I have known for many years has served in the French Army unit responsible for NBC defense. This guy has told me a few years ago that his friends among the veterans of the same unit were discussing a strange situation where a “UFO landing site” somewhere in France was supposedly inspected by the unit in question before all the findings got confiscated by some “men jn black ” types who supposedly were not even French. The whole occurrence got classified with people having to sign mandatory NDAs.

    Accordung to my contact, the French military were not freaking about the UFO itself, but about these weurd “men in black ” being imposed in top of them, bossing them and giving them orders how they should take care of the whole thing.

  124. @Not only wrathful
    @songbird

    I would have to check that my mate was not descended from one of my great great great grandparent's siblings?

    Or we'd have to check all of our 128 ancestors in the line above that to make sure there was no match up...I think

    Lol

    Replies: @songbird

    I would have to check that my mate was not descended from one of my great great great grandparent’s siblings?

    I think it would be from their first cousins, rather than from their siblings.

    Though, under the real system, you could get dispensations and still marry some of your prohibited relations. Seems like marrying one’s second or third cousin was not super rare, though first cousins marrying was kind of rare in most places.

  125. Bashibuzuk says:
    @S
    @Bashibuzuk


    The 1989 – 1991 wave of UFO sightings in USSR has coincided with the fall of the Soviet Union.
     
    Do you happen to recall the 1984 Salyut 7 incident described below, or have any insight into it?

    Around 1990 this was reported in the United States. What was fascinating about it at the time was how this allegedly occurred during officially atheistic Soviet times, but the term 'angels' was consistently used in the news reports.

    The Salyut 7 wiki entry says nothing on it. Did the astronauts ever denounce that it occurred, or, was it all simply fantasy?



    https://www.techeblog.com/mind-blowing-story-of-russian-cosmonauts-who-saw-angels-in-space/

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    No I have never heard about this “angels” story. But I have once had a conversation with an Arab Wahhabi-Salafi imbecile who has quite seriously told me that Yuri Gagarin was killed by the KGB because he supposedly heard the Islamic call to prayer during his flight and converted to the Din. This is of course pure anti-Soviet propaganda of the lowest kind.

    • Replies: @S
    @Bashibuzuk

    Thanks. Apparently there's not much veracity behind the particular story.

    There are many stories which swirl around the US astronauts, particularly the Apollo Lunar ones. Most of these reports are very questionable. However, amongst a very few of these Lunar astronauts, there is a public acknowledgement of probable extra-terrestrial life, and even that they've seen some odd things while in space, though generally nothing too spectacular.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  126. @Bashibuzuk
    FWIW, Russian Orthodox Church has published an official guidance on UFOs where it stated two things: A) One should stay clear and as far away as possible from any supposed UFO B) What we today consider Aliens are in fact demons.

    https://ria.ru/20200418/1570246437.html

    Although this opinion of ROC has been discussed recently, the official opinion of the ROC about the UFOs / Aliens has been formulated by the mid 90ies after a large wave of sightings of UFOs in the late 80ies - early 90ies across the fUSSR.

    Today around 45% of RusFed citizens believe in the existence of extraterrestrial life forms, back then it was way higher because the "UFO sightings " were communicated quite often in Soviet mass media.

    Interestingly, among the major religions Islam believes in a plurality of inhabited worlds/dimensions as does Buddhism which considers that there is a high number of Buddha Worlds inhabited by sentient beings as numerous as "the grains of sand on the Ganges' riverbanks ". Islam broadly aligns with the interpretation of the ROC because the inhabitants of other "worlds" are Jinns. However, in Islam Jinns are not necessarily all evil. In Buddhism the sentient beings accross the Universe all have the same basic nature. Although I am not that knowledgeable in Jewish tradition, I have read that the Kabbalah also agrees that there are other "worlds" / planes of existence with their own inhabitants either "angels" or "demons".

    We can conclude that the belief in outwordly "beings" and "encounters " is nothing new in human mythology. The only thing new is that we now believe that they come from "other planets" and fly in out skies in some "advanced technology " machines. This is of course simply due to our postmodern technicicist mindset.

    Replies: @Morton's toes, @Dmitry

    See Nick Land! Knowledge is foremost the starting block for deeper unknowing and it won’t ever end. Demons works as good as any.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  127. @S
    @mal

    That is an interesting angle.

    Grey whales were making ocean going inter-continental journeys of 10-12 thousand miles between Russia and Baja California well before the time humans could make such trips. Could creatures similarly theoretically naturally evolve to make space going trips, ie initially 'migrations' of some type, perhaps at first to nearby planets like the whales and pigeons do through the water and the air to near by continents, without the need of external craft and protective clothing?

    As far I know in the case of the Earth there is no sign of this occurring, though, I've never really gotten into UFO'olgy. It would be interesting to know just how many of the UFO reports of 'aliens' don't involve external 'space craft', or, 'space suits'.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/whale-migration-2291902

    Replies: @songbird, @Anatoly Karlin

    • Agree: mal
    • LOL: S
    • Replies: @S
    @Anatoly Karlin

    So, that's where the idea came from for Star Trek IV (The Voyage Home) in 1986?

    The Enterprise crew had to go back in time two centuries to 1986, steal a Humpback whale, and bring it back to the future to save the Earth...ie the whale would soothingly 'sing' to the doomsday machine probe which would then cease its march of destruction across the universe.

    Though it did very well at the box office, of all the Star Trek movie plotlines, I have to say I thought that particular storyline was one of the lamest.

    And, no, I don't hate whales. :-)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_IV:_The_Voyage_Home

    Replies: @Wency

  128. S says:
    @songbird
    @S

    Whale migrations are interesting because, in many cases, it appears that they are migrating to the tropics which is an area of less resources, if one eats plankton. Apparently, one idea is that it has something to do with their skin.

    I don't know, if I could see migrating space animals though. Life would probably need to begin on planet, and it would be hard to get off such a planet, where it could evolve. Once you got into space, there would not seem to be much of a seasonal motivation to move.

    In addition, interstellar travel would probably require at least some kind of nuclear fusion and electrical generation. If life is the result of a twister going through a junkyard enough times and assembling a 747, then assembling a cold fusion reactor seems orders of magnitudes more difficult.

    Though, maybe someone could make space animals? But then wouldn't there be a danger of them using up all the resources and wrecking the galaxy for other life? But maybe, something like panspermia could be engineered.

    Replies: @S

    I don’t know, if I could see migrating space animals though. Life would probably need to begin on planet, and it would be hard to get off such a planet, where it could evolve…

    I see what you’re saying.

    Space would be a tough nut to crack. It’s probably difficult enough for an earthbound creature to evolve the specialization of flight through air and swimming in water. The vacuum of space, with its extreme environments, may in reality ultimately prove a barrier that is simply too much (generally) for natural evolution to overcome, whatever the creature’s planet of origin.

    Humans have done so because we have our minds and can (to an extent) control our environment.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @S

    It's fun to imagine space whales, though. I would suppose that any complex creature that could travel interstellar space on its own would necessarily need to very intelligent. Perhaps, it would also be a sign that it had directed its own evolution, and, if such was the case, perhaps, it would not be completely biological.

    , @mal
    @S


    Space would be a tough nut to crack.
     
    For Earth based animal, sure, but for moon evolved space whale maybe not. They wouldn't need to adopt to an atmosphere - just liquid water of the moon, and vacuum. They would hitch rides on water jets from the ice cracks in the moon surface caused by tidal forces. And they would also write science papers about how life on Earth is impossible because oxygen is toxic, corrosive, and burns everything, and no self respecting animal would want to live there because nobody wants to inhale rocket propellant for a living.

    I guess it would depend on what's easier to repair - radiation damage in space or oxidative damage on Earth.

    One interesting thing we are finding out with respect to space whales is tissue engineering. It appears there is a significant benefit to growing organs in low gravity. So if you are a space whale, you will probably evolve far larger and more complex organs than what is possible on Earth, and will have a much longer lifespan too.

    For interstellar travel, space whales will need new physics, but if you have brains the size of a house and a million year lifespan, who knows what they can come up with.

    Replies: @S

  129. Anatoly, when will you open a thread about the Protassevitch drama and the corresponding Western hysteria?

  130. @Abelard Lindsey
    @Max Payne

    Good point!

    I was wondering if other people (e.g. Chinese military, Russians, etc.) were also seeing these UFO's or if it was only our military that was seeing them.

    I read somewhere on the net that they began seeing these UFO's after they upgraded their radar/IR hardware in their planes.

    Replies: @Max Payne

    I read somewhere on the net that they began seeing these UFO’s after they upgraded their radar/IR hardware in their planes.

    Pretty much. Around 2003-4ish when the AN/ASQ-228 ATFLIR was deployed in large numbers.

    2 of 4 videos were around this time. Training mistakes as personnel learn to service/attach the system. A substantial upgrade rolled out in mid-2010s which brought on the second wave of videos.

    They are all user error, hardware faults or misinterpretations (pilots on go-pills/amphetamines off the coast of California; you know Californians, 7.8 million retards for every 1 intelligent person over there, Silicon Valley vs everyone else).

    A few frames of the GOFAST video:

    ‘Go Fast” was a crew flying at 25,000ft tracking a peregrine falcon at 13,000 feet (if the rangefinder is to believed) flying at 70-90 km/h (40-50 knots). The F-18 is turning and the auto-track is rotating creating a parallax like illusion.

    The audio of the footage is what really sells it as “unknown” as the two pilots are in confusion at what they are seeing. Because there is NO WAY US pilots don’t know what they’re looking at (as every Canadian Armed Forces member recalls the first Canadian causalities in Afghanistan were from a US pilot dropping a JDAM on them).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnak_Farm_incident

    Yet scientists who rely on IR cameras to track birds have already noted IR signatures of feathers to reduce misreadings.

    ALL ‘leaked’ videos started popping up in 2017-2019 in conjunction with a proposal to replace the AN/ASQ-228 with an upgrade due to readiness rate and sustainable cost.

    https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/us-navy-looks-to-replace-or-improve-f/a-18e/f-eo/ir-targeting-pods/133971.article

    As if there was a plan…

    All other sightings have an obvious reasonable explanation (visual artifacts, sensor echoes, signal lag, debuffering issues, etc.).

    So in short there is NO direct evidence of UFOs, aliens, or any other nonsense.

    https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0005515622.pdf

    Even this document, which is INTERPRETED as UFO/alien evidence (hand-delivered artifact from a science department to a director). What one man sees as evidence of UFO, I see someone trying to pitch a new department to promote themselves (constant reminders US has no UFO department; someone above him crossed out words instead of redacting them to reduce this particular language).

    Like the poster on Fox Mulder’s wall says “I WANT TO BELIEVE”

    But…..

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk, mal
  131. @S
    @songbird


    I don’t know, if I could see migrating space animals though. Life would probably need to begin on planet, and it would be hard to get off such a planet, where it could evolve...
     
    I see what you're saying.

    Space would be a tough nut to crack. It's probably difficult enough for an earthbound creature to evolve the specialization of flight through air and swimming in water. The vacuum of space, with its extreme environments, may in reality ultimately prove a barrier that is simply too much (generally) for natural evolution to overcome, whatever the creature's planet of origin.

    Humans have done so because we have our minds and can (to an extent) control our environment.

    Replies: @songbird, @mal

    It’s fun to imagine space whales, though. I would suppose that any complex creature that could travel interstellar space on its own would necessarily need to very intelligent. Perhaps, it would also be a sign that it had directed its own evolution, and, if such was the case, perhaps, it would not be completely biological.

  132. S says:
    @Bashibuzuk
    @S

    No I have never heard about this "angels" story. But I have once had a conversation with an Arab Wahhabi-Salafi imbecile who has quite seriously told me that Yuri Gagarin was killed by the KGB because he supposedly heard the Islamic call to prayer during his flight and converted to the Din. This is of course pure anti-Soviet propaganda of the lowest kind.

    Replies: @S

    Thanks. Apparently there’s not much veracity behind the particular story.

    There are many stories which swirl around the US astronauts, particularly the Apollo Lunar ones. Most of these reports are very questionable. However, amongst a very few of these Lunar astronauts, there is a public acknowledgement of probable extra-terrestrial life, and even that they’ve seen some odd things while in space, though generally nothing too spectacular.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @S

    These stories are clearly of the same grade of veracity as the Hinduist Viamana and the flying "thunder chariot " of the book of Enoch.


    The Sanskrit word vi-māna (विमान) literally means "measuring out, traversing" or "having been measured out". Monier Monier-Williams defines Vimana as "a car or a chariot of the gods, any self-moving aerial car sometimes serving as a seat or throne, sometimes self-moving and carrying its occupant through the air; other descriptions make the Vimana more like a house or palace, and one kind is said to be seven stories high", and quotes the Pushpaka Vimana of Ravana as an example.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimana

    And I lay on my bad sleeping. •And, while I slept, a great distress entered my heart, and I was weeping with my eyes in a dream. And I could not figure out what this distress might be, |nor| what might be

    happening to me. •Then two huge men appeared to me, the like of which I had never seen on earth.



    Their faces were like the shining sun;

    their eyes were like burning lamps;

    from their mouths fire was coming forth;

    their clothing was various singing;

    their wings were more glistening than gold;

    their hands were whiter than snow.



    And they stood at the head of my bed and called me by my name.

    Then I awake from my sleep, and saw those men, standing in front of me, in actuality.

    •Then I bowed down to them; and I was terrified; and the appearance of my face was changed because of fear. •Then those men said to me, “Be brave, Enoch! In truth, do not fear! The eternal God has sent us to you. And behold, you will ascend with us to heaven today. •And tell your sons 〈|and all the members of your household,|〉 everything that they must do in your house while they are without you on the earth.

     

    https://www.marquette.edu/maqom/slavonicenoch.html
  133. Bashibuzuk says:
    @S
    @Bashibuzuk

    Thanks. Apparently there's not much veracity behind the particular story.

    There are many stories which swirl around the US astronauts, particularly the Apollo Lunar ones. Most of these reports are very questionable. However, amongst a very few of these Lunar astronauts, there is a public acknowledgement of probable extra-terrestrial life, and even that they've seen some odd things while in space, though generally nothing too spectacular.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    These stories are clearly of the same grade of veracity as the Hinduist Viamana and the flying “thunder chariot ” of the book of Enoch.

    The Sanskrit word vi-māna (विमान) literally means “measuring out, traversing” or “having been measured out”. Monier Monier-Williams defines Vimana as “a car or a chariot of the gods, any self-moving aerial car sometimes serving as a seat or throne, sometimes self-moving and carrying its occupant through the air; other descriptions make the Vimana more like a house or palace, and one kind is said to be seven stories high”, and quotes the Pushpaka Vimana of Ravana as an example.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimana

    And I lay on my bad sleeping. •And, while I slept, a great distress entered my heart, and I was weeping with my eyes in a dream. And I could not figure out what this distress might be, |nor| what might be

    happening to me. •Then two huge men appeared to me, the like of which I had never seen on earth.

    Their faces were like the shining sun;

    their eyes were like burning lamps;

    from their mouths fire was coming forth;

    their clothing was various singing;

    their wings were more glistening than gold;

    their hands were whiter than snow.

    And they stood at the head of my bed and called me by my name.

    Then I awake from my sleep, and saw those men, standing in front of me, in actuality.

    •Then I bowed down to them; and I was terrified; and the appearance of my face was changed because of fear. •Then those men said to me, “Be brave, Enoch! In truth, do not fear! The eternal God has sent us to you. And behold, you will ascend with us to heaven today. •And tell your sons 〈|and all the members of your household,|〉 everything that they must do in your house while they are without you on the earth.

    https://www.marquette.edu/maqom/slavonicenoch.html

  134. @Bashibuzuk
    FWIW, Russian Orthodox Church has published an official guidance on UFOs where it stated two things: A) One should stay clear and as far away as possible from any supposed UFO B) What we today consider Aliens are in fact demons.

    https://ria.ru/20200418/1570246437.html

    Although this opinion of ROC has been discussed recently, the official opinion of the ROC about the UFOs / Aliens has been formulated by the mid 90ies after a large wave of sightings of UFOs in the late 80ies - early 90ies across the fUSSR.

    Today around 45% of RusFed citizens believe in the existence of extraterrestrial life forms, back then it was way higher because the "UFO sightings " were communicated quite often in Soviet mass media.

    Interestingly, among the major religions Islam believes in a plurality of inhabited worlds/dimensions as does Buddhism which considers that there is a high number of Buddha Worlds inhabited by sentient beings as numerous as "the grains of sand on the Ganges' riverbanks ". Islam broadly aligns with the interpretation of the ROC because the inhabitants of other "worlds" are Jinns. However, in Islam Jinns are not necessarily all evil. In Buddhism the sentient beings accross the Universe all have the same basic nature. Although I am not that knowledgeable in Jewish tradition, I have read that the Kabbalah also agrees that there are other "worlds" / planes of existence with their own inhabitants either "angels" or "demons".

    We can conclude that the belief in outwordly "beings" and "encounters " is nothing new in human mythology. The only thing new is that we now believe that they come from "other planets" and fly in out skies in some "advanced technology " machines. This is of course simply due to our postmodern technicicist mindset.

    Replies: @Morton's toes, @Dmitry

    Because people often explain things according to the fashionable things of their times.

    For example, Karlin has claimed that reality is a “computer simulation”. The reason is because computers were the fashionable new technology that arrived in ordinary consumer hands in the decade of his youth.

    If it was the 19th century, people might say that the reality was produced by some steam-powered machine (or if he was in China – a result of opium).

    That’s not to say that the metaphors are not always notuseful ones. For example, electronics and computers are exploits from logic, and logic will also apply outside of human things. So the metaphors from computer science and electronic engineering, can be valid to discuss aspects of the world which are not part of human culture – as it ultimately is talking about formal logic, and logic binds also the nonhuman world as the merely human one.

    belief in outwordly “beings” and “encounters ” is nothing new in human mythology. The only thing new is that we now believe that they come from “other planets” and fly in out skies in some “advanced technology ” machine

    There is something new in the modern world, in the revolution of knowledge (adjusting upwards in size and scale). in our understanding of the universe, and our understanding of the lowering importance of man (man’s centrality to the universe, being “lowered” with each century).

    That is not to say that modern scientific knowledge is anything very advanced, but it is a new stage in human history, and that we are able to follow to the extent of reducing our egos has been a merit to the modern world (with apologies to Giordano Bruno et al).

    E.g. For many generations, man had a mythological concept of the moon as a god or goddess watching over us. (Although of course thoughtful people in ancient times like Ptolemy have understood that this was not true).

    Until recently, might have imagined that earth was unique, but there are now believed to be perhaps hundreds of billions of habitable planets in a universe.

    While all it speculation, it would seem statistically very implausible that there are not many more habitats, and probably exist species much more impressive than our own one.

    The idea of travel between stars should be implausible under the current knowledge of physics, although the idea of very many existing habitats should be very plausible.

    A last hope that should protect our egos from having to experience a possibility that we are not the height of creation, is the distances involved that should make travel between stars implausible. So assuming there is not a problem with the current understanding of physics (which we can’t say certainly), then man’s ego should be safe for now from the experience of not being the apex of the animals.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Dmitry


    logic binds also the nonhuman world as the merely human one.
     
    This is only true to some extent.

    There is something new in the modern world, in the revolution of knowledge (adjusting upwards in size and scale). in our understanding of the universe, and our understanding of the lowering importance of man (man’s centrality to the universe, being “lowered” with each century).
     
    Yes we know now that Earth is one among many millions of planets in our galaxy and that our DNA is basically the same as the one of the procaryotes. We also know that some of the basic chemical units needed to produce living beings biochemistry are already found in the planetary discs of the nascent solar systems. Despite all this we still believe that we are the pinnacle of creation. That's of course quite parochial.

    OTOH, in very ancient texts such as the Aṣṭasāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra, the Universe is already described as something very large, perhaps infinite, similar to "a flying ship traversing the void" and populated with a great many sentient beings (I cite here the Conze translation). Also in Tao Te Ching the true nature of Reality is described as unfathomable and humans are described as no better than "straw dogs" that were burned as a sacrifice by the ancient Han Chinese. So there were always people who were perhaps a little bit more open-minded that the average naked bipedal ape. Of course, for the average human the saying: "Give a monkey a brain and he will swear he is the center of the Universe " stays true no matter what.

    that we are able to follow to the extent of reducing our egos has been a merit to the modern world
     
    I believe we have not reduced our egos that much, arguably we live in the era of Peak Egotism and Maximum Nombrilisme (French for Navel-gazing). Everyone wants to be original, an individual and to live as long as possible, forever if possible. A lot of people would benefit from reading the Ecclesiastes or any other Axial Age book of wisdom to ground them a bit.

    The idea of travel between stars should be implausible under the current knowledge of physics, although the idea of very many existing habitats should be very plausible.

     

    I am pretty sure there a things in physics that we did not figure out yet that once done will allow us to travel to other stars if not to other galaxies. That is, if we survive as a species long enough to figure out what we are missing in the big picture. But given that we are genetically basically 98,5 % chimpanzee, half Pan troglodytes and half Pan paniscus, I believe it is highly probable that we will f*ck our world and destroy our civilization before we will get to the stars.

    A last hope that should protect our egos from having to experience a possibility that we are not the height of creation, is the distances involved that should make travel between stars implausible. So assuming there is not a problem with the current understanding of physics (which we can’t say certainly), then man’s ego should be safe for now from the experience of not being the apex of the animals.
     
    https://images.eil.com/large_image/FISHBONE_GIVE%2BA%2BMONKEY%2BA%2BBRAIN%85%2BAND%2BHELL%2BSWEAR%2BHES%2BTHE%2BCENTER%2BOF%2BTHE%2BUNIVERSE-697982.jpg

    Yep that's exactly what an upstart ape would really believe: that he's the Ape[x] of the Evolution (until proven wrong)...

    🙂

    Replies: @Dmitry

  135. @Jatt Aryaa
    @JohnPlywood

    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_culture.shtml#Phenotypes

    My identity isn't based on color so you have way more fucks to give.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/09/12/the-sintashta-were-swarthy/

    You have it backwards, they started off looking like Meds or Afghans and got lighter over time.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/01/10/are-haryana-jats-the-closest-living-descendents-of-our-vedic-forefathers/

    Replies: @Zastavan

    No, these blogs are making stuff up to appease their (largely Indian and South-European) audiences. The actual studies say they were light.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Steppe_Herders#Physical_appearance

    The Western Steppe Herders are believed to have been light-skinned and had a variety of eye colors, including dark eyes and blue eyes.[26][27]

    The Western Steppe Herders carried an allele that is responsible for the expression of classical European blond hair. Geneticist David Reich said that this allele first appeared in Central Asia, and that the massive migration of Western Steppe Herders brought this trait to Europe, explaining why there are millions of copies of this SNP in modern Europeans.[28] Gavin Evans has likewise stated that the “all-conquering” Western Steppe Herders were responsible for the transmission of this allele in to the dark haired native populations of Europe.[29] In 2020, a study suggested that ancestry from Western Steppe Pastoralists was responsible for lightening the skin and hair color of modern Europeans, having a dominant effect on the phenotype of Northern Europeans, in particular.[30]

    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @Zastavan

    Light skin is relative Eupedia & Razib isn't brown people fans. OIT is brown people appeasing.

    Your study is saying the same thing as me, Euros have 2 copies of light skin gene we have one. I'm sorry youre retarded but:

    Euro hunter gather = dark skin w/ blonde/blue & the steppe is opposite.

    Keep believing brown steppe people were high minded, women respecters like you. 😂

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

  136. mal says:
    @S
    @songbird


    I don’t know, if I could see migrating space animals though. Life would probably need to begin on planet, and it would be hard to get off such a planet, where it could evolve...
     
    I see what you're saying.

    Space would be a tough nut to crack. It's probably difficult enough for an earthbound creature to evolve the specialization of flight through air and swimming in water. The vacuum of space, with its extreme environments, may in reality ultimately prove a barrier that is simply too much (generally) for natural evolution to overcome, whatever the creature's planet of origin.

    Humans have done so because we have our minds and can (to an extent) control our environment.

    Replies: @songbird, @mal

    Space would be a tough nut to crack.

    For Earth based animal, sure, but for moon evolved space whale maybe not. They wouldn’t need to adopt to an atmosphere – just liquid water of the moon, and vacuum. They would hitch rides on water jets from the ice cracks in the moon surface caused by tidal forces. And they would also write science papers about how life on Earth is impossible because oxygen is toxic, corrosive, and burns everything, and no self respecting animal would want to live there because nobody wants to inhale rocket propellant for a living.

    I guess it would depend on what’s easier to repair – radiation damage in space or oxidative damage on Earth.

    One interesting thing we are finding out with respect to space whales is tissue engineering. It appears there is a significant benefit to growing organs in low gravity. So if you are a space whale, you will probably evolve far larger and more complex organs than what is possible on Earth, and will have a much longer lifespan too.

    For interstellar travel, space whales will need new physics, but if you have brains the size of a house and a million year lifespan, who knows what they can come up with.

    • Replies: @S
    @mal

    For now, all we have is our Solar System to compare things to, and even that has not nearly been completely explored...ie the many 'moons' you write about located in our own system. The other planetary systems we only observe from afar for now.

    If humanity can manage to linger around long enough we may have a chance to see for ourselves just how life expresses itself elsewhere and find answers to these questions.

    Replies: @mal

  137. @Bashibuzuk
    The 1989 - 1991 wave of UFO sightings in USSR has coincided with the fall of the Soviet Union. There were rumors of UFOs being able to put down the Soviet air defense radars. Among the most famous of these sightings was the one in Tbilisi filmed by a TV crew which was initially there to film a popular Georgian singer:

    http://www.myvideo.ge/?CIA=1&ci_d=mobile&ci_c=mobile&ci_m=video&video_id=2104247

    BTW, I personally had seen two unidentified aerial phenomena, one in MENA and one in North America. Both times, I was not alone and people who were with me saw them as well and couldn't explain what was exactly happening. In MENA, we were three people driving in a car and the driver tried to stop to have a better view, other cars around us also started trying to park, so we were not the only ones observing this thing flying above. It all went very fast, I had the impression that the thing was somewhat triangular in shape, hid a kind of flame or very bright light surrounding it and was probably at least as big as our car, although it was difficult to judge how high exactly it was flying.

    In North America, we were four people having a drink outside in the early night hours (around perhaps 10:00 pm), the shining thing changed direction at an uncanny angle, entered a cloud and didn't reappear. It was clearly flying higher than the cloud.

    For both cases, I have no idea what it was, all I know is that it was rather strange and that people around me saw the same thing I did.

    Replies: @S, @Dmitry

    It happened when there was a collapse of power, so it likely relates to the openess and visibility of the topic, rather than that was actually more people seeing UFOs.

    In 1960s-1970s, Feliks Zigel had collected hundreds of reports of UFOs, many from military pilots.

    So it has been a consistent reality (the most serious pilots seeing UFOs) for many decades, but the change seems to be more in the visibility of the topic, and that seemed to vary more with the decades and their political changes.

    French Army unit responsible for NBC defense. This guy has told me a few years ago that his friends among the veterans of the same unit were discussing a strange situation where a “UFO landing site” somewhere in France was supposedly inspected by the unit in question before all the findings got confiscated by some “men

    This seemed to be a consistent feature of more plausible sounding reports in the Western countries.

    For example, children have seen a UFO in the city Melbourne inside Australia in 1966. In response, the Australian police or military officials, had bullied the children, and told them not to talk about it. The woman said at 9:00

    This kind of story becomes an increasingly valid mystery with each decade, as 55 years later the most advanced aerospace technology that has been public in Australia is just airforce’s F-18 planes.

  138. @songbird
    @sher singh

    HBDChick is occasionally a complete retard, as when she says the below:


    By the 11th century, with the adoption of the so-called canon-law method of computing consanguinity, these proscriptions had been extended even to sixth cousins, including by marriage.
     
    That is not how they calculated consanguinity. Medieval peasants did not know who their sixth cousins were, nor likely did kings - it is ridiculous on its face. We don't even know them now, with better records.

    Seven degrees of consanguinity translates to third cousins, not sixth cousins!

    Replies: @Not only wrathful, @Jatt Aryaa

    I’m a simple man I see something that says honored killing bad, I call it gay.

    The original comment was bait dor Altan & Bashi..

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Jatt Aryaa

    They should probably change it. Evidence from Iceland suggests that third cousins are a biological optimum, and result in the highest TFR. And it would be better to resuscitate clans, IMO.

    It is also important for society to have a mechanism for dealing with women like the mothers of Obama and Harris (and Harris herself). I propose sending them to one of the up-and-coming megacities of Africa 2100, to help sort out sewage problems.

    Replies: @sher singh

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @Jatt Aryaa


    The original comment was bait for Altan & Bashi..
     
    Sorry to disappoint you.

    Will do better next time.

    BTW, I agree that Yamnaya were swarthy.

    🙂

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

  139. @Zastavan
    @Jatt Aryaa

    No, these blogs are making stuff up to appease their (largely Indian and South-European) audiences. The actual studies say they were light.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Steppe_Herders#Physical_appearance


    The Western Steppe Herders are believed to have been light-skinned and had a variety of eye colors, including dark eyes and blue eyes.[26][27]

    The Western Steppe Herders carried an allele that is responsible for the expression of classical European blond hair. Geneticist David Reich said that this allele first appeared in Central Asia, and that the massive migration of Western Steppe Herders brought this trait to Europe, explaining why there are millions of copies of this SNP in modern Europeans.[28] Gavin Evans has likewise stated that the "all-conquering" Western Steppe Herders were responsible for the transmission of this allele in to the dark haired native populations of Europe.[29] In 2020, a study suggested that ancestry from Western Steppe Pastoralists was responsible for lightening the skin and hair color of modern Europeans, having a dominant effect on the phenotype of Northern Europeans, in particular.[30]
     

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

    Light skin is relative Eupedia & Razib isn’t brown people fans. OIT is brown people appeasing.

    Your study is saying the same thing as me, Euros have 2 copies of light skin gene we have one. I’m sorry youre retarded but:

    Euro hunter gather = dark skin w/ blonde/blue & the steppe is opposite.

    Keep believing brown steppe people were high minded, women respecters like you. 😂

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @Jatt Aryaa


    I’m sorry youre retarded but:

    Euro hunter gather = dark skin w/ blonde/blue & the steppe is opposite.
     

    Dude, did you even read the quote that guy posted? Here, read the quote again:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Steppe_Herders#Physical_appearance


    The Western Steppe Herders are believed to have been light-skinned and had a variety of eye colors, including dark eyes and blue eyes.[26][27]

    The Western Steppe Herders carried an allele that is responsible for the expression of classical European blond hair. Geneticist David Reich said that this allele first appeared in Central Asia, and that the massive migration of Western Steppe Herders brought this trait to Europe, explaining why there are millions of copies of this SNP in modern Europeans.[28]

    Gavin Evans has likewise stated that the "all-conquering" Western Steppe Herders were responsible for the transmission of this allele in to the dark haired native populations of Europe.[29] 

    In 2020, a study suggested that ancestry from Western Steppe Pastoralists was responsible for lightening the skin and hair color of modern Europeans, having a dominant effect on the phenotype of Northern Europeans, in particular.[30]
     

    European hunter gatherers weren't blond, unless they were mixed with human populations from the Steppe (some were). Steppe groups were light skinned, blond haired, and blue/brown eyed.

    European hunter gatherers were were black haired, brown or black skinned, and blue eyed.


    That's a fact. Northern Europeans are the only people alive today who have the Steppe phenotype, whether you respect women or not.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

  140. Why are people eager to meet alien civilization? What if they treat us like American Indians? Or Belgians people in Africa?

    • Replies: @S
    @demografie


    Why are people eager to meet alien civilization? What if they treat us like American Indians?
     
    Yes, wasn't it Hawkings who spoke out against the 'wisdom' of deliberately revealing your location before knowing exactly what is that's out there? I tend to agree with him.

    Or Belgians people in Africa?
     
    Or, even worse.

    Whatever you do, don't get on that ship!

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Toserveman.jpg

    Soon, humans are volunteering for trips to the Kanamits' home planet, which they describe as a paradise. Kanamits now have embassies in every major city on Earth. With the U.S. Armed Forces having been disbanded and world peace having been achieved, the code-breaking staff has no real work to do, but Patty is still trying to work out the meaning of the text of To Serve Man.

    The day arrives for Chambers's excursion to the Kanamits' planet. Just as he mounts the spaceship's boarding stairs, Patty runs toward him in great agitation. While being held back by a Kanamit guard, Patty cries: "Mr. Chambers, don't get on that ship! The rest of the book, To Serve Man, it's... it's a..."
     
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man_%28The_Twilight_Zone%29
  141. @Jatt Aryaa
    @songbird

    I'm a simple man I see something that says honored killing bad, I call it gay.

    The original comment was bait dor Altan & Bashi..

    Replies: @songbird, @Bashibuzuk

    They should probably change it. Evidence from Iceland suggests that third cousins are a biological optimum, and result in the highest TFR. And it would be better to resuscitate clans, IMO.

    It is also important for society to have a mechanism for dealing with women like the mothers of Obama and Harris (and Harris herself). I propose sending them to one of the up-and-coming megacities of Africa 2100, to help sort out sewage problems.

    • Replies: @sher singh
    @songbird

    So your solution to Nigger misbehaviour is to.. give them women?
    Nationalism = Pagang
    Anyway, unrelated here's my Christcucks are feminist compendium plz comment (links bottom)


    The welfare of the social order, according to St. Augustine (City of God XV.16) and St. Thomas (Suppl. Q. liii, a. 3), demanded the widest possible extension of friendship and love among all humankind, the best interests of society required the unification of the numerous tribes and peoples which had settled on the soil of the Roman Empire. By overthrowing the barriers between inimical families and races, ruinous internecine warfare was diminished and greater peace and harmony secured among the newly-converted Christians.
     

    In other words, the Church promoted consensual and egalitarian marriage relations based on the free will of individual men and women. This is what Siedentop means by the Catholic "invention of individualism".
     

    From as early as the fourth century, it discouraged practices that enlarged the family, such as adoption, polygamy, concubinage, divorce, and remarriage. The church also curtailed parents’ abilities to retain kinship ties through arranged marriages by prohibiting unions in which the bride didn’t explicitly agree to the union.
     

    Among the anthropologically defined 356 contemporary societies of Euro-Asia and Africa, there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages
     
    Bonus:

    https://twitter.com/apex_simmaps/status/1383506501289988101?s=21
    https://twitter.com/GraniRau/status/1392195763640446979
    https://twitter.com/Parikramah/status/1190773771600322560?s=20


    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm
    https://www.eurocanadian.ca/2020/04/kevin-macdonald-hail-catholic-5church-forcing-monogamy-upon-nobility.html
    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/

    Replies: @songbird

  142. S says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    @S

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceWhale

    Replies: @S

    So, that’s where the idea came from for Star Trek IV (The Voyage Home) in 1986?

    The Enterprise crew had to go back in time two centuries to 1986, steal a Humpback whale, and bring it back to the future to save the Earth…ie the whale would soothingly ‘sing’ to the doomsday machine probe which would then cease its march of destruction across the universe.

    Though it did very well at the box office, of all the Star Trek movie plotlines, I have to say I thought that particular storyline was one of the lamest.

    And, no, I don’t hate whales. 🙂

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_IV:_The_Voyage_Home

    • Replies: @Wency
    @S


    Though it did very well at the box office, of all the Star Trek movie plotlines, I have to say I thought that particular storyline was one of the lamest.
     
    People who aren't nerds seem to be drawn more to sci-fi/fantasy that doesn't take itself too seriously and has some comic relief. They also like if it connects to the real-world somewhat (making it more relatable) as opposed to being an entire self-contained fantasy world with its own rules. Star Trek IV was the funniest and the only one that involved the present-day, and so it's no surprise to me that it did best.

    The premise of the movie is ostensibly about the destruction of all life, which isn't funny, but it's by way of whales, which is basically absurd and could be something out of Hitchhiker's Guide, so that takes the sting out of it in a way that, say, a Klingon-led Space Holocaust would not.

  143. “The biggest American organized UFO study ever produced the Condon report which said in conclusion not a threat. That was in the 1960’s so I suppose 50 years ameliorates direct contradictions if you allow for slop.”

    I will skip the politics. What the Condon Study indicates is that upward of 89% of the cases could be explained.

    They failed to account for thousands of others. Ignoring data is not the same thing as explaining it because most of it makes sense. In fact, the meat and potatoes rests in what is not explainable. The very point of the study. It’s finding the gem without knowing it or so dumbfounded, you don’t believe it.

    ——————–

    Many of you are confusing popularity and unpopular with reality. The two can exist at the same time. A lack of popular interest or the reverse has no bearing on the truth of a thing. The Ceoleocanth was never popular, yet it existed. Just because it is not in the news or movies does not make it false.

  144. S says:
    @mal
    @S


    Space would be a tough nut to crack.
     
    For Earth based animal, sure, but for moon evolved space whale maybe not. They wouldn't need to adopt to an atmosphere - just liquid water of the moon, and vacuum. They would hitch rides on water jets from the ice cracks in the moon surface caused by tidal forces. And they would also write science papers about how life on Earth is impossible because oxygen is toxic, corrosive, and burns everything, and no self respecting animal would want to live there because nobody wants to inhale rocket propellant for a living.

    I guess it would depend on what's easier to repair - radiation damage in space or oxidative damage on Earth.

    One interesting thing we are finding out with respect to space whales is tissue engineering. It appears there is a significant benefit to growing organs in low gravity. So if you are a space whale, you will probably evolve far larger and more complex organs than what is possible on Earth, and will have a much longer lifespan too.

    For interstellar travel, space whales will need new physics, but if you have brains the size of a house and a million year lifespan, who knows what they can come up with.

    Replies: @S

    For now, all we have is our Solar System to compare things to, and even that has not nearly been completely explored…ie the many ‘moons’ you write about located in our own system. The other planetary systems we only observe from afar for now.

    If humanity can manage to linger around long enough we may have a chance to see for ourselves just how life expresses itself elsewhere and find answers to these questions.

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @mal
    @S

    I'm 99% certain we will find evidence for life in our Solar System outside of Earth. Even if it is remnants of Earth life blown away in an explosion (such as when big rock killed the dinosaurs).

    If we don't, something is very wrong here, as in like somebody forgot to add object persistence across video game screens.

    And of course, if our probes discover a war raging in the ice caves of Ganymede between native space whales and a surviving colony of Earth T-Rexes, that would be epic :).

  145. @S
    @Anatoly Karlin

    So, that's where the idea came from for Star Trek IV (The Voyage Home) in 1986?

    The Enterprise crew had to go back in time two centuries to 1986, steal a Humpback whale, and bring it back to the future to save the Earth...ie the whale would soothingly 'sing' to the doomsday machine probe which would then cease its march of destruction across the universe.

    Though it did very well at the box office, of all the Star Trek movie plotlines, I have to say I thought that particular storyline was one of the lamest.

    And, no, I don't hate whales. :-)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_IV:_The_Voyage_Home

    Replies: @Wency

    Though it did very well at the box office, of all the Star Trek movie plotlines, I have to say I thought that particular storyline was one of the lamest.

    People who aren’t nerds seem to be drawn more to sci-fi/fantasy that doesn’t take itself too seriously and has some comic relief. They also like if it connects to the real-world somewhat (making it more relatable) as opposed to being an entire self-contained fantasy world with its own rules. Star Trek IV was the funniest and the only one that involved the present-day, and so it’s no surprise to me that it did best.

    The premise of the movie is ostensibly about the destruction of all life, which isn’t funny, but it’s by way of whales, which is basically absurd and could be something out of Hitchhiker’s Guide, so that takes the sting out of it in a way that, say, a Klingon-led Space Holocaust would not.

  146. S says:
    @demografie
    Why are people eager to meet alien civilization? What if they treat us like American Indians? Or Belgians people in Africa?

    Replies: @S

    Why are people eager to meet alien civilization? What if they treat us like American Indians?

    Yes, wasn’t it Hawkings who spoke out against the ‘wisdom’ of deliberately revealing your location before knowing exactly what is that’s out there? I tend to agree with him.

    Or Belgians people in Africa?

    Or, even worse.

    Whatever you do, don’t get on that ship!

    Soon, humans are volunteering for trips to the Kanamits’ home planet, which they describe as a paradise. Kanamits now have embassies in every major city on Earth. With the U.S. Armed Forces having been disbanded and world peace having been achieved, the code-breaking staff has no real work to do, but Patty is still trying to work out the meaning of the text of To Serve Man.

    The day arrives for Chambers’s excursion to the Kanamits’ planet. Just as he mounts the spaceship’s boarding stairs, Patty runs toward him in great agitation. While being held back by a Kanamit guard, Patty cries: “Mr. Chambers, don’t get on that ship! The rest of the book, To Serve Man, it’s… it’s a…”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man_%28The_Twilight_Zone%29

  147. mal says:
    @S
    @mal

    For now, all we have is our Solar System to compare things to, and even that has not nearly been completely explored...ie the many 'moons' you write about located in our own system. The other planetary systems we only observe from afar for now.

    If humanity can manage to linger around long enough we may have a chance to see for ourselves just how life expresses itself elsewhere and find answers to these questions.

    Replies: @mal

    I’m 99% certain we will find evidence for life in our Solar System outside of Earth. Even if it is remnants of Earth life blown away in an explosion (such as when big rock killed the dinosaurs).

    If we don’t, something is very wrong here, as in like somebody forgot to add object persistence across video game screens.

    And of course, if our probes discover a war raging in the ice caves of Ganymede between native space whales and a surviving colony of Earth T-Rexes, that would be epic :).

    • Thanks: S
  148. @songbird
    @Jatt Aryaa

    They should probably change it. Evidence from Iceland suggests that third cousins are a biological optimum, and result in the highest TFR. And it would be better to resuscitate clans, IMO.

    It is also important for society to have a mechanism for dealing with women like the mothers of Obama and Harris (and Harris herself). I propose sending them to one of the up-and-coming megacities of Africa 2100, to help sort out sewage problems.

    Replies: @sher singh

    So your solution to Nigger misbehaviour is to.. give them women?
    Nationalism = Pagang
    Anyway, unrelated here’s my Christcucks are feminist compendium plz comment (links bottom)

    The welfare of the social order, according to St. Augustine (City of God XV.16) and St. Thomas (Suppl. Q. liii, a. 3), demanded the widest possible extension of friendship and love among all humankind, the best interests of society required the unification of the numerous tribes and peoples which had settled on the soil of the Roman Empire. By overthrowing the barriers between inimical families and races, ruinous internecine warfare was diminished and greater peace and harmony secured among the newly-converted Christians.

    In other words, the Church promoted consensual and egalitarian marriage relations based on the free will of individual men and women. This is what Siedentop means by the Catholic “invention of individualism”.

    From as early as the fourth century, it discouraged practices that enlarged the family, such as adoption, polygamy, concubinage, divorce, and remarriage. The church also curtailed parents’ abilities to retain kinship ties through arranged marriages by prohibiting unions in which the bride didn’t explicitly agree to the union.

    Among the anthropologically defined 356 contemporary societies of Euro-Asia and Africa, there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages

    Bonus:

    • Replies: @songbird
    @sher singh

    I'll put my reply underneath:


    So your solution to Nigger misbehaviour is to.. give them women?

     

    They like foul whores; I like minerals and a place to send undesirables. I would also give them treasonous men... ideally so they could marry them to their ugliest, most obese women.

    I suspect that polygamy leads to negrification. Look at the Arabs, who where closest to Africa. Today, technology has closed the distance to the rest of the world, and made it a greater danger. Ditto, for adoption. Meanwhile, society has decayed since divorce was made easier. And guess who lobbied to make it easier?

    You are giving too much credit to Christianity when you attribute the end of clans to it. Ireland was possibly the first country outside of the old Roman Empire in Europe to be converted. Christianity was introduced into Ireland in the 400s (or earlier). Very conservatively, the clan system lasted at least into the 1500s (100% traditional, with derbfines) - though I would say probably at least until about 1600, or possibly even later, really depends on your definition. Families were still acting with their cousins in a military sense in the late 1600s.

    They still had polygamy and divorce until the Normans came in 1169, but, as I said, the clan system continued to survive a long time, and many Normans adopted it. Ireland had some of the most ancient noble families in Europe - until the vast majority were dispossessed in further waves of invasion by the English.

    Ultimately, the clan system seemed to prove a weakness, leading to bloody battles of succession, letting brothers lead in English armies. I wouldn't say that the Church destroyed the system. To a large extent, it relied on the patronage of chiefs. What destroyed it was English power. Those who became retainers, had their land granted to them by the English king, when they died, it returned to him, and he regranted it, for a fee. He also had to be paid when nobles married. Ancient families adopted primogeniture, since it was the English way. When brothers died, this led to sisters inheriting, disrupting the old Irish system that always reverted to male kin and which made people maintain long pedigrees, to record their ancestors.

    And aristocracy went out the window anyway with commercialism. It was Cromwell who let the Jews into England - he was not a Christian traditionalist.

    Replies: @sher singh

  149. @DNS
    @sher singh

    https://i.imgur.com/AwRCfY6.jpg

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    In case anyone falls for this, the bust on the left is a reconstruction of a Western Steppe Herder, and the two images of the brown guy are the digital work of a pseudonymous guy (PhillipEdwin) on DeviantArt.com.

    In addition to getting the pigmentation completely wrong (he was blonde and light skinned), he clearly altered the facial features as well, to suit his fetish. Interestingly he seems to acknowledge now that his reconstructions of the Steppe men were inaccurate, albeit in a “save-face” way (he mistakenly assumes any studies ever said the Yamnaya were dark haired).

  150. @Jatt Aryaa
    @Zastavan

    Light skin is relative Eupedia & Razib isn't brown people fans. OIT is brown people appeasing.

    Your study is saying the same thing as me, Euros have 2 copies of light skin gene we have one. I'm sorry youre retarded but:

    Euro hunter gather = dark skin w/ blonde/blue & the steppe is opposite.

    Keep believing brown steppe people were high minded, women respecters like you. 😂

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    I’m sorry youre retarded but:

    Euro hunter gather = dark skin w/ blonde/blue & the steppe is opposite.

    Dude, did you even read the quote that guy posted? Here, read the quote again:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Steppe_Herders#Physical_appearance

    The Western Steppe Herders are believed to have been light-skinned and had a variety of eye colors, including dark eyes and blue eyes.[26][27]

    The Western Steppe Herders carried an allele that is responsible for the expression of classical European blond hair. Geneticist David Reich said that this allele first appeared in Central Asia, and that the massive migration of Western Steppe Herders brought this trait to Europe, explaining why there are millions of copies of this SNP in modern Europeans.[28]

    Gavin Evans has likewise stated that the “all-conquering” Western Steppe Herders were responsible for the transmission of this allele in to the dark haired native populations of Europe.[29] 

    In 2020, a study suggested that ancestry from Western Steppe Pastoralists was responsible for lightening the skin and hair color of modern Europeans, having a dominant effect on the phenotype of Northern Europeans, in particular.[30]

    European hunter gatherers weren’t blond, unless they were mixed with human populations from the Steppe (some were). Steppe groups were light skinned, blond haired, and blue/brown eyed.

    European hunter gatherers were were black haired, brown or black skinned, and blue eyed.

    That’s a fact. Northern Europeans are the only people alive today who have the Steppe phenotype, whether you respect women or not.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @JohnPlywood

    You just popped his racist world view cherry.

  151. @Jatt Aryaa
    @songbird

    I'm a simple man I see something that says honored killing bad, I call it gay.

    The original comment was bait dor Altan & Bashi..

    Replies: @songbird, @Bashibuzuk

    The original comment was bait for Altan & Bashi..

    Sorry to disappoint you.

    Will do better next time.

    BTW, I agree that Yamnaya were swarthy.

    🙂

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @Bashibuzuk

    You would be disagreeing with the whole of the scientific research, which means only a fool would value your agreement.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Steppe_Herders#Physical_appearance


    The Western Steppe Herders are believed to have been light-skinned and had a variety of eye colors, including dark eyes and blue eyes.[26][27]


    The Western Steppe Herders carried an allele that is responsible for the expression of classical European blond hair. Geneticist David Reich said that this allele first appeared in Central Asia, and that the massive migration of Western Steppe Herders brought this trait to Europe, explaining why there are millions of copies of this SNP in modern Europeans.[28] 

    Gavin Evans has likewise stated that the "all-conquering" Western Steppe Herders were responsible for the transmission of this allele in to the dark haired native populations of Europe.[29]

    In 2020, a study suggested that ancestry from Western Steppe Pastoralists was responsible for lightening the skin and hair color of modern Europeans, having a dominant effect on the phenotype of Northern Europeans, in particular.[30]
     
  152. @Bashibuzuk
    @Jatt Aryaa


    The original comment was bait for Altan & Bashi..
     
    Sorry to disappoint you.

    Will do better next time.

    BTW, I agree that Yamnaya were swarthy.

    🙂

    Replies: @JohnPlywood

    You would be disagreeing with the whole of the scientific research, which means only a fool would value your agreement.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Steppe_Herders#Physical_appearance

    The Western Steppe Herders are believed to have been light-skinned and had a variety of eye colors, including dark eyes and blue eyes.[26][27]

    The Western Steppe Herders carried an allele that is responsible for the expression of classical European blond hair. Geneticist David Reich said that this allele first appeared in Central Asia, and that the massive migration of Western Steppe Herders brought this trait to Europe, explaining why there are millions of copies of this SNP in modern Europeans.[28] 

    Gavin Evans has likewise stated that the “all-conquering” Western Steppe Herders were responsible for the transmission of this allele in to the dark haired native populations of Europe.[29]

    In 2020, a study suggested that ancestry from Western Steppe Pastoralists was responsible for lightening the skin and hair color of modern Europeans, having a dominant effect on the phenotype of Northern Europeans, in particular.[30]

  153. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Dmitry
    @Bashibuzuk

    Because people often explain things according to the fashionable things of their times.

    For example, Karlin has claimed that reality is a "computer simulation". The reason is because computers were the fashionable new technology that arrived in ordinary consumer hands in the decade of his youth.

    If it was the 19th century, people might say that the reality was produced by some steam-powered machine (or if he was in China - a result of opium).

    That's not to say that the metaphors are not always notuseful ones. For example, electronics and computers are exploits from logic, and logic will also apply outside of human things. So the metaphors from computer science and electronic engineering, can be valid to discuss aspects of the world which are not part of human culture - as it ultimately is talking about formal logic, and logic binds also the nonhuman world as the merely human one.


    belief in outwordly “beings” and “encounters ” is nothing new in human mythology. The only thing new is that we now believe that they come from “other planets” and fly in out skies in some “advanced technology ” machine

     

    There is something new in the modern world, in the revolution of knowledge (adjusting upwards in size and scale). in our understanding of the universe, and our understanding of the lowering importance of man (man's centrality to the universe, being "lowered" with each century).

    That is not to say that modern scientific knowledge is anything very advanced, but it is a new stage in human history, and that we are able to follow to the extent of reducing our egos has been a merit to the modern world (with apologies to Giordano Bruno et al).

    E.g. For many generations, man had a mythological concept of the moon as a god or goddess watching over us. (Although of course thoughtful people in ancient times like Ptolemy have understood that this was not true).

    Until recently, might have imagined that earth was unique, but there are now believed to be perhaps hundreds of billions of habitable planets in a universe.

    While all it speculation, it would seem statistically very implausible that there are not many more habitats, and probably exist species much more impressive than our own one.

    The idea of travel between stars should be implausible under the current knowledge of physics, although the idea of very many existing habitats should be very plausible.

    A last hope that should protect our egos from having to experience a possibility that we are not the height of creation, is the distances involved that should make travel between stars implausible. So assuming there is not a problem with the current understanding of physics (which we can't say certainly), then man's ego should be safe for now from the experience of not being the apex of the animals.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    logic binds also the nonhuman world as the merely human one.

    This is only true to some extent.

    There is something new in the modern world, in the revolution of knowledge (adjusting upwards in size and scale). in our understanding of the universe, and our understanding of the lowering importance of man (man’s centrality to the universe, being “lowered” with each century).

    Yes we know now that Earth is one among many millions of planets in our galaxy and that our DNA is basically the same as the one of the procaryotes. We also know that some of the basic chemical units needed to produce living beings biochemistry are already found in the planetary discs of the nascent solar systems. Despite all this we still believe that we are the pinnacle of creation. That’s of course quite parochial.

    OTOH, in very ancient texts such as the Aṣṭasāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra, the Universe is already described as something very large, perhaps infinite, similar to “a flying ship traversing the void” and populated with a great many sentient beings (I cite here the Conze translation). Also in Tao Te Ching the true nature of Reality is described as unfathomable and humans are described as no better than “straw dogs” that were burned as a sacrifice by the ancient Han Chinese. So there were always people who were perhaps a little bit more open-minded that the average naked bipedal ape. Of course, for the average human the saying: “Give a monkey a brain and he will swear he is the center of the Universe ” stays true no matter what.

    that we are able to follow to the extent of reducing our egos has been a merit to the modern world

    I believe we have not reduced our egos that much, arguably we live in the era of Peak Egotism and Maximum Nombrilisme (French for Navel-gazing). Everyone wants to be original, an individual and to live as long as possible, forever if possible. A lot of people would benefit from reading the Ecclesiastes or any other Axial Age book of wisdom to ground them a bit.

    The idea of travel between stars should be implausible under the current knowledge of physics, although the idea of very many existing habitats should be very plausible.

    I am pretty sure there a things in physics that we did not figure out yet that once done will allow us to travel to other stars if not to other galaxies. That is, if we survive as a species long enough to figure out what we are missing in the big picture. But given that we are genetically basically 98,5 % chimpanzee, half Pan troglodytes and half Pan paniscus, I believe it is highly probable that we will f*ck our world and destroy our civilization before we will get to the stars.

    A last hope that should protect our egos from having to experience a possibility that we are not the height of creation, is the distances involved that should make travel between stars implausible. So assuming there is not a problem with the current understanding of physics (which we can’t say certainly), then man’s ego should be safe for now from the experience of not being the apex of the animals.

    Yep that’s exactly what an upstart ape would really believe: that he’s the Ape[x] of the Evolution (until proven wrong)…

    🙂

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Bashibuzuk

    It's possible that for an alien visitor, humans would not be considered the most important or interesting animal here. Just as a gardener, might not consider the most successful and common plant in a garden, to be the most interesting one.

    Moreover, it is probable that humans would not seem significantly distinct from the other animals and plants, as reflects the objective situation - where a human and a hamster are almost biologically the same, and mentally not necessarily that distant.


    upstart ape would really believe
     
    And as primates, our common ancestor had looked like a squirrel - so we had real "lower class" squirrel grandparents collecting nuts, before those more pretentious monkey parents.

    https://i.imgur.com/dO8vumu.jpg


    Everyone wants to be original, an individual and to live as long as possible, forever if possible.
     
    I think this sense that we are original and individual, is not just natural, but also should have been historically accurate for us until quite recently.

    Invention of agriculture, and recent "breakout from Malthusian Trap" in the last few generations - has resulted in our massive reproducibility and devaluation of our value.

    We're not well adapted for our role in a world where there are billions of replicas of ourselves, when for much of human history there might have been a maximum of 100,000 people in the world, living at any single time - and you would have only encountered not more than a couple of hundred of those people in your life, and could have objectively seemed very irreplaceable for your society.


    https://i.imgur.com/Cy7bH5E.jpg

  154. @sher singh
    @songbird

    So your solution to Nigger misbehaviour is to.. give them women?
    Nationalism = Pagang
    Anyway, unrelated here's my Christcucks are feminist compendium plz comment (links bottom)


    The welfare of the social order, according to St. Augustine (City of God XV.16) and St. Thomas (Suppl. Q. liii, a. 3), demanded the widest possible extension of friendship and love among all humankind, the best interests of society required the unification of the numerous tribes and peoples which had settled on the soil of the Roman Empire. By overthrowing the barriers between inimical families and races, ruinous internecine warfare was diminished and greater peace and harmony secured among the newly-converted Christians.
     

    In other words, the Church promoted consensual and egalitarian marriage relations based on the free will of individual men and women. This is what Siedentop means by the Catholic "invention of individualism".
     

    From as early as the fourth century, it discouraged practices that enlarged the family, such as adoption, polygamy, concubinage, divorce, and remarriage. The church also curtailed parents’ abilities to retain kinship ties through arranged marriages by prohibiting unions in which the bride didn’t explicitly agree to the union.
     

    Among the anthropologically defined 356 contemporary societies of Euro-Asia and Africa, there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages
     
    Bonus:

    https://twitter.com/apex_simmaps/status/1383506501289988101?s=21
    https://twitter.com/GraniRau/status/1392195763640446979
    https://twitter.com/Parikramah/status/1190773771600322560?s=20


    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm
    https://www.eurocanadian.ca/2020/04/kevin-macdonald-hail-catholic-5church-forcing-monogamy-upon-nobility.html
    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/

    Replies: @songbird

    I’ll put my reply underneath:

    [MORE]

    So your solution to Nigger misbehaviour is to.. give them women?

    They like foul whores; I like minerals and a place to send undesirables. I would also give them treasonous men… ideally so they could marry them to their ugliest, most obese women.

    I suspect that polygamy leads to negrification. Look at the Arabs, who where closest to Africa. Today, technology has closed the distance to the rest of the world, and made it a greater danger. Ditto, for adoption. Meanwhile, society has decayed since divorce was made easier. And guess who lobbied to make it easier?

    You are giving too much credit to Christianity when you attribute the end of clans to it. Ireland was possibly the first country outside of the old Roman Empire in Europe to be converted. Christianity was introduced into Ireland in the 400s (or earlier). Very conservatively, the clan system lasted at least into the 1500s (100% traditional, with derbfines) – though I would say probably at least until about 1600, or possibly even later, really depends on your definition. Families were still acting with their cousins in a military sense in the late 1600s.

    They still had polygamy and divorce until the Normans came in 1169, but, as I said, the clan system continued to survive a long time, and many Normans adopted it. Ireland had some of the most ancient noble families in Europe – until the vast majority were dispossessed in further waves of invasion by the English.

    Ultimately, the clan system seemed to prove a weakness, leading to bloody battles of succession, letting brothers lead in English armies. I wouldn’t say that the Church destroyed the system. To a large extent, it relied on the patronage of chiefs. What destroyed it was English power. Those who became retainers, had their land granted to them by the English king, when they died, it returned to him, and he regranted it, for a fee. He also had to be paid when nobles married. Ancient families adopted primogeniture, since it was the English way. When brothers died, this led to sisters inheriting, disrupting the old Irish system that always reverted to male kin and which made people maintain long pedigrees, to record their ancestors.

    And aristocracy went out the window anyway with commercialism. It was Cromwell who let the Jews into England – he was not a Christian traditionalist.

    • Replies: @sher singh
    @songbird

    Bashibazuk: It's ok I will too. :)

    Songbird: 10% of Hindu/Sikh were polygamous in 1970s far higher than Sulleh.
    I think deporting traitors just gives enemies a leg up. Anyway, we'll see tnx for response. :)

    JohnPlywood & Astute: Circumcised wiki posting holds no merit.

    https://periklisdeligiannis.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/012.jpg

  155. What I noticed to be funny is that the better cameras we have, with everyone having a mini computer in the form of smartphones with near HD cameras, there is almost no higher quality UFO sighting videos.

    • Replies: @Sick 'n Tired
    @Astuteobservor II

    Same goes for Sasquatch/Bigfoot sightings.

    Replies: @Athletic and Whitesplosive

  156. @JohnPlywood
    @Jatt Aryaa


    I’m sorry youre retarded but:

    Euro hunter gather = dark skin w/ blonde/blue & the steppe is opposite.
     

    Dude, did you even read the quote that guy posted? Here, read the quote again:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Steppe_Herders#Physical_appearance


    The Western Steppe Herders are believed to have been light-skinned and had a variety of eye colors, including dark eyes and blue eyes.[26][27]

    The Western Steppe Herders carried an allele that is responsible for the expression of classical European blond hair. Geneticist David Reich said that this allele first appeared in Central Asia, and that the massive migration of Western Steppe Herders brought this trait to Europe, explaining why there are millions of copies of this SNP in modern Europeans.[28]

    Gavin Evans has likewise stated that the "all-conquering" Western Steppe Herders were responsible for the transmission of this allele in to the dark haired native populations of Europe.[29] 

    In 2020, a study suggested that ancestry from Western Steppe Pastoralists was responsible for lightening the skin and hair color of modern Europeans, having a dominant effect on the phenotype of Northern Europeans, in particular.[30]
     

    European hunter gatherers weren't blond, unless they were mixed with human populations from the Steppe (some were). Steppe groups were light skinned, blond haired, and blue/brown eyed.

    European hunter gatherers were were black haired, brown or black skinned, and blue eyed.


    That's a fact. Northern Europeans are the only people alive today who have the Steppe phenotype, whether you respect women or not.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    You just popped his racist world view cherry.

  157. @Astuteobservor II
    What I noticed to be funny is that the better cameras we have, with everyone having a mini computer in the form of smartphones with near HD cameras, there is almost no higher quality UFO sighting videos.

    Replies: @Sick 'n Tired

    Same goes for Sasquatch/Bigfoot sightings.

    • Replies: @Athletic and Whitesplosive
    @Sick 'n Tired

    Tons of BS out there, but this argument doesn't really convince me because I'm familiar with the "quality" of the average cell phone camera. These pieces of junk can rarely get decent photos of a blackboard across a room with optimal focus, nonetheless get decent footage at 50 yards through brush (if your average stupified hunter had the wherewithal to pull out and focus his camera in the time a hypothetical encounrer lasted).

    The reason why most footage is blurry is because it's zoomed way in on the object of interest and they weren't a professional photographer using a telephoto lens (the same reason security camera footage is grainy, the camera's crummy and the object far away). It could all just be a combination of hoaxes as well as misidentification, but there's no chance everyone's intentionally falsifying their sightings with a shoddy camera.

  158. @songbird
    @sher singh

    I'll put my reply underneath:


    So your solution to Nigger misbehaviour is to.. give them women?

     

    They like foul whores; I like minerals and a place to send undesirables. I would also give them treasonous men... ideally so they could marry them to their ugliest, most obese women.

    I suspect that polygamy leads to negrification. Look at the Arabs, who where closest to Africa. Today, technology has closed the distance to the rest of the world, and made it a greater danger. Ditto, for adoption. Meanwhile, society has decayed since divorce was made easier. And guess who lobbied to make it easier?

    You are giving too much credit to Christianity when you attribute the end of clans to it. Ireland was possibly the first country outside of the old Roman Empire in Europe to be converted. Christianity was introduced into Ireland in the 400s (or earlier). Very conservatively, the clan system lasted at least into the 1500s (100% traditional, with derbfines) - though I would say probably at least until about 1600, or possibly even later, really depends on your definition. Families were still acting with their cousins in a military sense in the late 1600s.

    They still had polygamy and divorce until the Normans came in 1169, but, as I said, the clan system continued to survive a long time, and many Normans adopted it. Ireland had some of the most ancient noble families in Europe - until the vast majority were dispossessed in further waves of invasion by the English.

    Ultimately, the clan system seemed to prove a weakness, leading to bloody battles of succession, letting brothers lead in English armies. I wouldn't say that the Church destroyed the system. To a large extent, it relied on the patronage of chiefs. What destroyed it was English power. Those who became retainers, had their land granted to them by the English king, when they died, it returned to him, and he regranted it, for a fee. He also had to be paid when nobles married. Ancient families adopted primogeniture, since it was the English way. When brothers died, this led to sisters inheriting, disrupting the old Irish system that always reverted to male kin and which made people maintain long pedigrees, to record their ancestors.

    And aristocracy went out the window anyway with commercialism. It was Cromwell who let the Jews into England - he was not a Christian traditionalist.

    Replies: @sher singh

    Bashibazuk: It’s ok I will too. 🙂

    Songbird: 10% of Hindu/Sikh were polygamous in 1970s far higher than Sulleh.
    I think deporting traitors just gives enemies a leg up. Anyway, we’ll see tnx for response. 🙂

    JohnPlywood & Astute: Circumcised wiki posting holds no merit.

  159. There are no aliens.

    If you do the math on 7 million planets, at an optimistic estimate, you may find about 9.5 planets in the UNIVERSE that even have the necessary electromagnetic and average temperature conditions for protein synthesis alone.

    That’s to say nothing of the necessity of an iron core, or oceans, let alone the carbon, sulfur, oxygen, and nitrogen requirements, or the Calcium, Zirconium, Zinc, Chlorine, Magnesium, Molybdenum, Iodine, Sodium, Selenium, Phosphorus, Boron, and Chromium necessary for cellular life.

    And of the 4391 planets confirmed so far, there is only one “terrestrial” or “unknown” planet that is 1) not an ice planet), 2) large enough to have the gravitational force to have an atmosphere, 3) in possession of meaningful amounts of water, and 4) sufficiently dense to have a molten core. That planet is, of course, Earth. That’s just as far as our telescopes can detect; even if (not likely but even if) we aren’t the only planet with what it takes to sustain advanced life, that other planet would be so far away that no spacecraft from there would get here in your grandchildren’s grandchildren’s grandchildren’s life.

    If the columnist here, or any of you, believe in aliens, then you are outrageously foolish. And some of you may be so ignorant that you don’t even know what is necessary for advanced life on a planet.

    • Disagree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @mal
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan


    If you do the math on 7 million planets, at an optimistic estimate, you may find about 9.5 planets in the UNIVERSE that even have the necessary electromagnetic and average temperature conditions for protein synthesis alone.
     
    There's a great deal more than 7 million planets in the universe.
    , @songbird
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    NASA's rough estimate from 2020 is at least 300 million habitable planets in the Galaxy.

    https://futuresciencenews.com/2020-11-12-nasa-300-million-exoplanets-milky-way-habitable.html

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Wency
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    I really don't think that assigning variables to the Drake Equation gives you a definitive answer one way or the other (you seem to be taking the Rare Earth Hypothesis too seriously based on these variables alone, while I think others here don't take it seriously enough and are taking the unremarkableness of Earth for granted). The truth is that so many of the variables are debatable and speculative to the point that the whole thing is basically GIGO.

    I'll continue to stick with what I know: life expands, sooner or later, to fill a vacuum -- no habitable and accessible ecosystem is going to remain uncolonized forever. The fact that alien life has not sought to colonize us almost certainly means that either the aliens don't exist or they can't get to us.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  160. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    There are no aliens.

    If you do the math on 7 million planets, at an optimistic estimate, you may find about 9.5 planets in the UNIVERSE that even have the necessary electromagnetic and average temperature conditions for protein synthesis alone.

    That's to say nothing of the necessity of an iron core, or oceans, let alone the carbon, sulfur, oxygen, and nitrogen requirements, or the Calcium, Zirconium, Zinc, Chlorine, Magnesium, Molybdenum, Iodine, Sodium, Selenium, Phosphorus, Boron, and Chromium necessary for cellular life.

    And of the 4391 planets confirmed so far, there is only one "terrestrial" or "unknown" planet that is 1) not an ice planet), 2) large enough to have the gravitational force to have an atmosphere, 3) in possession of meaningful amounts of water, and 4) sufficiently dense to have a molten core. That planet is, of course, Earth. That's just as far as our telescopes can detect; even if (not likely but even if) we aren't the only planet with what it takes to sustain advanced life, that other planet would be so far away that no spacecraft from there would get here in your grandchildren's grandchildren's grandchildren's life.

    If the columnist here, or any of you, believe in aliens, then you are outrageously foolish. And some of you may be so ignorant that you don't even know what is necessary for advanced life on a planet.

    Replies: @mal, @songbird, @Wency

    If you do the math on 7 million planets, at an optimistic estimate, you may find about 9.5 planets in the UNIVERSE that even have the necessary electromagnetic and average temperature conditions for protein synthesis alone.

    There’s a great deal more than 7 million planets in the universe.

    • Agree: songbird, S
  161. @JohnPlywood
    You guys are coping and scared shitless. The "UFOs" are extremely advanced US time dilation technology that can destroy anything China/Russia has. That's why they're slowly "revealing" them as Russia shows off its primitive propellant based rockets.


    Tbe USA probably has a military alliance with whatever extraterestrial society it got the technology from. Meaning that US global hegemony is a done permanent deal.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Mulga Mumblebrain, @Pericles, @Sinotibetan, @Daniel Chieh, @Boomthorkell

    Unlikely it’s time dilation technology. Entirely likely it’s some form of free-energy/gravity motor. Quite probably so, though, who’s to say no one else hasn’t as well?

    America was also the first to nuclear weapons (well, in using them), but that Technological Hegemony didn’t last long. It’s more likely they are torn between showing evidence of technology, and Russia and China immediately emulating the designs/developing their own and reaching parity and the population wondering why they had not benefited from this amazing technology, or keeping it secret and being fully shamed as the Hegemony weakens.

    If this isn’t the case, then hilarity ensues as America’s empire loses to Hypersonic missiles, railroads, new port infrastructure, and being so terminally gay (pozzed?) it ruins its own special forces.

    Nothing is permanent.

  162. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    There are no aliens.

    If you do the math on 7 million planets, at an optimistic estimate, you may find about 9.5 planets in the UNIVERSE that even have the necessary electromagnetic and average temperature conditions for protein synthesis alone.

    That's to say nothing of the necessity of an iron core, or oceans, let alone the carbon, sulfur, oxygen, and nitrogen requirements, or the Calcium, Zirconium, Zinc, Chlorine, Magnesium, Molybdenum, Iodine, Sodium, Selenium, Phosphorus, Boron, and Chromium necessary for cellular life.

    And of the 4391 planets confirmed so far, there is only one "terrestrial" or "unknown" planet that is 1) not an ice planet), 2) large enough to have the gravitational force to have an atmosphere, 3) in possession of meaningful amounts of water, and 4) sufficiently dense to have a molten core. That planet is, of course, Earth. That's just as far as our telescopes can detect; even if (not likely but even if) we aren't the only planet with what it takes to sustain advanced life, that other planet would be so far away that no spacecraft from there would get here in your grandchildren's grandchildren's grandchildren's life.

    If the columnist here, or any of you, believe in aliens, then you are outrageously foolish. And some of you may be so ignorant that you don't even know what is necessary for advanced life on a planet.

    Replies: @mal, @songbird, @Wency

    NASA’s rough estimate from 2020 is at least 300 million habitable planets in the Galaxy.

    https://futuresciencenews.com/2020-11-12-nasa-300-million-exoplanets-milky-way-habitable.html

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @songbird


    NASA’s rough estimate from 2020 is at least 300 million habitable planets in the Galaxy.
     
    But we still have zero evidence for the existence of intelligent life beyond our own planet.

    Whether other intelligent life exists elsewhere in the galaxy is pretty much irrelevant. It seems a near certainty that we will never have any contact with such aliens so it's pointless worrying about them.

    What's interesting is that so many people just cannot deal with the likelihood that we will never ever contact aliens.

    It's not a case of I Want To Believe. It seems to be a case of I Need To Believe.

    Replies: @songbird, @mal, @S

  163. Everyone is bringing up space whales from Star Trek but no one is talking about a spaceborne crystalline entity.

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Crystalline_Entity

    If there was ever a space capable creature with electron traps. It won’t be no whale.

    • Agree: mal
  164. @JohnPlywood
    @Sinotibetan

    Alien depictions and advanced human ethnic groups are typically androgynous and sexually perverted (see Jews and Japanese, for example). If aliens have visited Earth, my money is on them favoring the US-led one world government. Like Jews and Japanese do.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell

    The Japanese, as I recall, were drafted into that. They spent about 66 years trying to escape Perry.

  165. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    There are no aliens.

    If you do the math on 7 million planets, at an optimistic estimate, you may find about 9.5 planets in the UNIVERSE that even have the necessary electromagnetic and average temperature conditions for protein synthesis alone.

    That's to say nothing of the necessity of an iron core, or oceans, let alone the carbon, sulfur, oxygen, and nitrogen requirements, or the Calcium, Zirconium, Zinc, Chlorine, Magnesium, Molybdenum, Iodine, Sodium, Selenium, Phosphorus, Boron, and Chromium necessary for cellular life.

    And of the 4391 planets confirmed so far, there is only one "terrestrial" or "unknown" planet that is 1) not an ice planet), 2) large enough to have the gravitational force to have an atmosphere, 3) in possession of meaningful amounts of water, and 4) sufficiently dense to have a molten core. That planet is, of course, Earth. That's just as far as our telescopes can detect; even if (not likely but even if) we aren't the only planet with what it takes to sustain advanced life, that other planet would be so far away that no spacecraft from there would get here in your grandchildren's grandchildren's grandchildren's life.

    If the columnist here, or any of you, believe in aliens, then you are outrageously foolish. And some of you may be so ignorant that you don't even know what is necessary for advanced life on a planet.

    Replies: @mal, @songbird, @Wency

    I really don’t think that assigning variables to the Drake Equation gives you a definitive answer one way or the other (you seem to be taking the Rare Earth Hypothesis too seriously based on these variables alone, while I think others here don’t take it seriously enough and are taking the unremarkableness of Earth for granted). The truth is that so many of the variables are debatable and speculative to the point that the whole thing is basically GIGO.

    I’ll continue to stick with what I know: life expands, sooner or later, to fill a vacuum — no habitable and accessible ecosystem is going to remain uncolonized forever. The fact that alien life has not sought to colonize us almost certainly means that either the aliens don’t exist or they can’t get to us.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Wency


    The fact that alien life has not sought to colonize us almost certainly means that either the aliens don’t exist or they can’t get to us.
     
    How can we be sure that we are not already colonized?

    Perhaps, we as a species are a (toxic ?) byproduct of some Alien bioengineering...

    Replies: @Wency

  166. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Wency
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    I really don't think that assigning variables to the Drake Equation gives you a definitive answer one way or the other (you seem to be taking the Rare Earth Hypothesis too seriously based on these variables alone, while I think others here don't take it seriously enough and are taking the unremarkableness of Earth for granted). The truth is that so many of the variables are debatable and speculative to the point that the whole thing is basically GIGO.

    I'll continue to stick with what I know: life expands, sooner or later, to fill a vacuum -- no habitable and accessible ecosystem is going to remain uncolonized forever. The fact that alien life has not sought to colonize us almost certainly means that either the aliens don't exist or they can't get to us.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    The fact that alien life has not sought to colonize us almost certainly means that either the aliens don’t exist or they can’t get to us.

    How can we be sure that we are not already colonized?

    Perhaps, we as a species are a (toxic ?) byproduct of some Alien bioengineering…

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @Wency
    @Bashibuzuk

    I'm not sure if you're serious, but the idea sounds absurd to me. You'd have to expand on it to make it sound credible. To me it's incredible that people make these amazing leaps of logic and yet dismiss the possibility of God (even a deist God!) out of hand.

    If interstellar-travelling aliens are real, here's what colonization eventually looks like: alien breeding pairs land here (you only need maybe a dozen), multiply, fill the world, probably mine the asteroid belt, and eventually start sending out colonization ships of their own. If they're self-replicating robots, they do something not terribly different.

    All it takes is a handful of self-interested agents that like the idea of spreading across the stars and that pass that idea down to their progeny. I don't really buy this idea of an alien 5-D chess plan that perpetually ignores the basic incentives of life. These ideas all seem to assume, rather dubiously, that the aliens have some all-powerful, far-seeing anti-colonization central authority that never cracks or crumbles in millions or billions of years and across the entire scope of the Milky Way.

    Replies: @songbird, @Bashibuzuk

  167. @Kratoklastes
    UFOs are like SETI: both depend on a 1950s mentality about technological change.

    Any civilisation that develops interplanetary flight, must necessarily first develop generalised computing.

    Generalised computing advances very quickly (at least exponentially, and perhaps in a 'punctuated double-exponential' fashion). Thus generalised (strong) AI will predictably happen within relatively few biological lifespans after the development of generalised computing.

    Once a society/civilisation achieves strong AI, it makes ZERO sense to send meatbags across interplanetary space... and even less sense to send meatbags across interstellar or intergalactic space. Most of the cost of manned space missions, is developing and furnishing a housing for the meatbags that will enable the meatbags to survive the launch and the trip.

    By contrast to generalised computing, meatbags evolve slowly - and retain shitty characteristics over very long spans of biological generations. The shitty characteristics with regard to interstellar space flight are things like
    - requirements for food, water, breathable gases, rest and waste disposal;
    - vulnerability outside of very narrow ranges of temperature/humidity/radiation/gas mix/impact-shock;
    - built-in degradation (i.e., short lifespans relative to the length of journey).


    So... it can be concluded a priori that any interstellar visitors to our little wet ball of rock, will arrive as strong AI 'virtual personalities' housed in radiation-powered nano-scale devices. They will only need to be O(2) (max 4) biological generations more advanced than the current level of technology in the West, to have the technological prowess to do so.

    And they will be as undetectable to us, as viruses were to the average OrthoHeeb rabbi in a hovel in the 19th century Pale of Settlement.

    Anyone who can't grok that, does not have the cognitive wherewithal to chide anybody about reluctance to participate in the current global vaccine trial.

    Replies: @mal, @El Dato, @Anatoly Karlin, @Eugene Norman, @Joe Paluka, @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Extrapolating from our limited understanding and filling in the blanks with conjecture about what a hyper advanced society “must necessarily” be like is very trite and unconvincing.

    It always takes the form of:

    I. Any society capable of X will be maximally efficient (obviously false)

    II. Y behaviour is maximally efficient (unproveable and contingent on arbitrary metrics)

    III. Therefore any society capable of X will do Y (dumb!)

    But this is also compounded by taking for granted that speculative technologies just will be “certainly” invented. Just imagine yourself in 1850 speculating on what a society that could edit genes (or any other modern wondertech) would be like, why any society that advanced would certainly be a veritable utopia which had solved all social ills and completely eliminated industrial inefficiency!

  168. @Sick 'n Tired
    @Astuteobservor II

    Same goes for Sasquatch/Bigfoot sightings.

    Replies: @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Tons of BS out there, but this argument doesn’t really convince me because I’m familiar with the “quality” of the average cell phone camera. These pieces of junk can rarely get decent photos of a blackboard across a room with optimal focus, nonetheless get decent footage at 50 yards through brush (if your average stupified hunter had the wherewithal to pull out and focus his camera in the time a hypothetical encounrer lasted).

    The reason why most footage is blurry is because it’s zoomed way in on the object of interest and they weren’t a professional photographer using a telephoto lens (the same reason security camera footage is grainy, the camera’s crummy and the object far away). It could all just be a combination of hoaxes as well as misidentification, but there’s no chance everyone’s intentionally falsifying their sightings with a shoddy camera.

  169. UFO equals idiot psy-op to misdirect and confuse the gullible https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/pentagons-new-ufo-disclosures-75-years-mk-ultra-psy-ops https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2020/08/03/the-pentagons-new-ufo-disclosures-75-years-of-mk-ultra-psy-ops/ https://www.winterwatch.net/2020/09/the-ufo-alien-narrative-is-a-psyop/
    Given how easily deceived the average person is why not have a reprise of Orsen Welles “War of the Worlds”(Halloween of 1938)? An even better template would be “The Day the Earth Stood Still”(1951) with Michael Rennie and Patricia Neal, plus Gort the Robot. It doesn’t matter if the flying saucer is made from Papier-mâché , or CGI, or a hologram, or just a cheap balloon. If anyone dares to criticize you just denounce them as a conspiracy theorist and kick ’em off social media such as Fakebook and Twitter. Michael Rennie will denounce selfish countries such as Venezuela, and of course Russia and call for the entire world to be ruled by a world government of the best, most intelligent and selfless i.e. the WEF(trillionaire rapacious oligarchs). To be fair we need some titillation. Gort would have to get randy and carry off Patricia and a loose skirt showing some pretty female thigh would be appropriate. A good soundtrack is always appreciated as well and Bernard Hermann was one of the best, though I personally liked the music to “Mysterious Island”(1961) better.
    If the good professor Neal Ferguson can reprise his exact rôle in the 2001 Foot and Mouth disease scamdemic in the UK and nobody thinks the better of it then the controllers can accomplish just about anything.
    We could fly to moon on a balloon(with apologies to David Niven 1983) and the honk donky cracker cretin will lap it up. Remember when everyone bought up the toilet paper? Or as Peter Paul and Mary said “where has all the toilet paper gone long time passing”. Actually the elite just ordered the distributors to stop the distribution for a while and then had some actors do the schtick on TV. A crude psychological warfare technique meant to instill fear and demoralization in the mind of the herd and better prepare the hoi poloi for indoctrination.
    BTW which is your favourite robot; Gort or Robbie the Robot(Lost in Space 1965-1968). I personally found Gort rather taciturn. Maybe he was thinking too much about cute female earthlings and not enough about his robotical duties.

  170. @Bashibuzuk
    @Wency


    The fact that alien life has not sought to colonize us almost certainly means that either the aliens don’t exist or they can’t get to us.
     
    How can we be sure that we are not already colonized?

    Perhaps, we as a species are a (toxic ?) byproduct of some Alien bioengineering...

    Replies: @Wency

    I’m not sure if you’re serious, but the idea sounds absurd to me. You’d have to expand on it to make it sound credible. To me it’s incredible that people make these amazing leaps of logic and yet dismiss the possibility of God (even a deist God!) out of hand.

    If interstellar-travelling aliens are real, here’s what colonization eventually looks like: alien breeding pairs land here (you only need maybe a dozen), multiply, fill the world, probably mine the asteroid belt, and eventually start sending out colonization ships of their own. If they’re self-replicating robots, they do something not terribly different.

    All it takes is a handful of self-interested agents that like the idea of spreading across the stars and that pass that idea down to their progeny. I don’t really buy this idea of an alien 5-D chess plan that perpetually ignores the basic incentives of life. These ideas all seem to assume, rather dubiously, that the aliens have some all-powerful, far-seeing anti-colonization central authority that never cracks or crumbles in millions or billions of years and across the entire scope of the Milky Way.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Wency

    Thought it was a reference to the rather horrible movie Prometheus (2011). (prequel to Alien)

    Replies: @Wency, @Bashibuzuk

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @Wency


    interstellar-travelling aliens
     
    We don't know if they are interstellar. We assume that UFOs are ETs, but we don't know.
  171. @songbird
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    NASA's rough estimate from 2020 is at least 300 million habitable planets in the Galaxy.

    https://futuresciencenews.com/2020-11-12-nasa-300-million-exoplanets-milky-way-habitable.html

    Replies: @dfordoom

    NASA’s rough estimate from 2020 is at least 300 million habitable planets in the Galaxy.

    But we still have zero evidence for the existence of intelligent life beyond our own planet.

    Whether other intelligent life exists elsewhere in the galaxy is pretty much irrelevant. It seems a near certainty that we will never have any contact with such aliens so it’s pointless worrying about them.

    What’s interesting is that so many people just cannot deal with the likelihood that we will never ever contact aliens.

    It’s not a case of I Want To Believe. It seems to be a case of I Need To Believe.

    • Agree: Wency, Stan D Mute
    • Replies: @songbird
    @dfordoom

    IMO, space-going aliens would be the ultimate appeal to the authority for the I-effing-love-science crowd. They probably imagine it like Star Trek, where an alien planet had to have world government in order to join the Federation.

    I agree, it is not worth worrying about aliens. If they are motivated to come, they won't need to home-in on old episodes of I Love Lucy traveling through the ether. In fact, it is more probable that that sort of thing would keep them at a distance, so they could study us.

    There could be a lot of bottlenecks to intelligence. For example, suppose you took Earth, went back a million years, and somehow got rid of all the continents except for Africa and Australia, would humans have ever developed spaceflight? I'm not sure that they would have - in fact I think the answer is no. Similarly, there is dysgenics. By 2100, there are predictions that the average IQ of the UK will be 85.

    Though, on the other end of it, there are people who seem to be invested in there being no other life, even simple life, on other planets. I don't get it. I heard an atheist argue once that it would disprove the Bible, if alien life (even simple) was discovered, but I don't believe most Christians are literalists about Genesis.

    Replies: @Wency

    , @mal
    @dfordoom


    But we still have zero evidence for the existence of intelligent life beyond our own planet.
     
    Our observational capabilities are extremely limited.

    We also have no idea what vast majority of the universe looks like, or what truly advanced technology will look like.

    Intelligence is not required for developing highly advanced tech (never met a pigeon with a PhD), so while life is very easy to get going, and therefore should be rather abundant (it took less than few hundred million years on Earth for life to spread), intelligence as humans see it may well prove to be superfluous.

    But its not a closed case - human level intelligence is also easy to develop - it only took a few million years to go from apes to humans, and there are a number of species (octopus, dolphins, etc), that are about at the same level.

    So it is obvious that life and intelligence is very easy to make, and so is advanced technology. Just look around you. The biggest concern is that advanced intelligence appears to be dysgenic, which is puzzling, but it explains why not many species pursue this route.

    Basically, the smarter you are and the more you use the brain, the less you breed, which eliminates you from the gene pool. It is impossible to colonize the galaxy with Japanese people even with perfect technology because the quantity of Japanese is declining.

    If we can colonize 110 million stars with Japanese today (one person per star), in just 50 years this number will drop to like 80 million, and so on. If we don't see intelligent aliens, that's the Great Filter to watch out for. So i guess we will see.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @dfordoom, @sudden death

    , @S
    @dfordoom


    It seems a near certainty that we will never have any contact with such aliens so it’s pointless worrying about them.
     
    Certainly no need to 'worry' about such things. It's not particularly productive, nor healthy.

    As for 'never' have any contact, well, never is a very long time.

    I imagine in the fourteenth century in both Europe, and say, the South Seas, each having society's with (relatively speaking) primitive sailing ships, and changes in design slow to take place, that many thought in their respective cultures that 'contact' with alien people's simply was never going to happen.

    Then came the 15th century revolution in Europe in ship design, the Carvels. Sure, they still had much to be desired, but compared to clinker construction the Carvels allowed for practical and relatively succesful trans-oceanic inter-continental ship travel.

    What followed afterward was the Age of Discovery in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, and the 'alien' European and South Seas' peoples indeed making 'contact'.

    Something like that Carvel revolution in ship design could happen with our primitive space ships of today, allowing for inter-stellar travel.

    And it could happen here (or 'out there') much quicker than we might think.

    Indeed, it may have already happened.


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carvel_(boat_building)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Discovery
  172. @dfordoom
    @songbird


    NASA’s rough estimate from 2020 is at least 300 million habitable planets in the Galaxy.
     
    But we still have zero evidence for the existence of intelligent life beyond our own planet.

    Whether other intelligent life exists elsewhere in the galaxy is pretty much irrelevant. It seems a near certainty that we will never have any contact with such aliens so it's pointless worrying about them.

    What's interesting is that so many people just cannot deal with the likelihood that we will never ever contact aliens.

    It's not a case of I Want To Believe. It seems to be a case of I Need To Believe.

    Replies: @songbird, @mal, @S

    IMO, space-going aliens would be the ultimate appeal to the authority for the I-effing-love-science crowd. They probably imagine it like Star Trek, where an alien planet had to have world government in order to join the Federation.

    I agree, it is not worth worrying about aliens. If they are motivated to come, they won’t need to home-in on old episodes of I Love Lucy traveling through the ether. In fact, it is more probable that that sort of thing would keep them at a distance, so they could study us.

    There could be a lot of bottlenecks to intelligence. For example, suppose you took Earth, went back a million years, and somehow got rid of all the continents except for Africa and Australia, would humans have ever developed spaceflight? I’m not sure that they would have – in fact I think the answer is no. Similarly, there is dysgenics. By 2100, there are predictions that the average IQ of the UK will be 85.

    Though, on the other end of it, there are people who seem to be invested in there being no other life, even simple life, on other planets. I don’t get it. I heard an atheist argue once that it would disprove the Bible, if alien life (even simple) was discovered, but I don’t believe most Christians are literalists about Genesis.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @songbird


    Though, on the other end of it, there are people who seem to be invested in there being no other life, even simple life, on other planets. I don’t get it. I heard an atheist argue once that it would disprove the Bible, if alien life (even simple) was discovered, but I don’t believe most Christians are literalists about Genesis.
     
    I'm not committed to the idea of Earth's uniqueness one way or the other (Rare Earth Hypothesis), but a few thoughts:

    The uniqueness of Earth, if demonstrably true, would be an apologetics point in favor of an intelligent creator, even if its falsity wouldn't refute the existence of that creator. A single instance of a fantastically improbable event might just be the result of chance, but it should also cause people to significantly "adjust their priors" and increase their estimation of the possibility that it was NOT the result of chance. People winning the lottery is not cause for suspicion, but the same man winning *every* lottery should probably make you very suspicious, even if it's not technically impossible that this could happen in a series of fair contests.

    It can be seen as allied to the Fine-Tuning Argument, which argues that the laws of physics are specifically mathematically tuned in such a way as to make life possible.

    But from what I know of Young Earth Creationists (YECists), they're divided on the matter of the possibility of alien life. I knew one personally who was a big sci-fi fan and figured aliens probably did exist, and God created them as well. But others do insist that Genesis excludes the possibility of life anywhere else.

    I'll also observe that the Rare Earth Hypothesis doesn't only appeal to Christians. Some secular scientists do seem to believe it on its merits. And certain techno-optimists/singularity-enthusiasts also believe it more religiously. There's a certain tension within "I effing love science" here. If technology is our salvation and the inevitable result of technological civilization is the Dyson Sphere, interstellar colonization, and practical immortality, then where are all the aliens and their Dyson Spheres? Answer: we're the only ones who have gotten this far, but we'll get there, just you see.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @songbird

  173. @Wency
    @Bashibuzuk

    I'm not sure if you're serious, but the idea sounds absurd to me. You'd have to expand on it to make it sound credible. To me it's incredible that people make these amazing leaps of logic and yet dismiss the possibility of God (even a deist God!) out of hand.

    If interstellar-travelling aliens are real, here's what colonization eventually looks like: alien breeding pairs land here (you only need maybe a dozen), multiply, fill the world, probably mine the asteroid belt, and eventually start sending out colonization ships of their own. If they're self-replicating robots, they do something not terribly different.

    All it takes is a handful of self-interested agents that like the idea of spreading across the stars and that pass that idea down to their progeny. I don't really buy this idea of an alien 5-D chess plan that perpetually ignores the basic incentives of life. These ideas all seem to assume, rather dubiously, that the aliens have some all-powerful, far-seeing anti-colonization central authority that never cracks or crumbles in millions or billions of years and across the entire scope of the Milky Way.

    Replies: @songbird, @Bashibuzuk

    Thought it was a reference to the rather horrible movie Prometheus (2011). (prequel to Alien)

    • Disagree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Wency
    @songbird

    OK, I actually saw that one, and I thought it was alright, not great or horrible.

    IIRC the idea was that aliens seeded life on Earth for some unknown reason and then largely left it be. This seems unlikely to me. But alien explorers dropping some sort of edible plants/livestock that are bio-engineered to dominate native species prior to a larger colonization mission within a few decades or centuries? This doesn't sound totally absurd -- it's much like how European explorers would drop pigs on islands as a food source should they later return. I just don't think there's any reason to think any of this has anything to do with Earth.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @songbird

    Well before any movies our myths accross tribal and ethnic boundaries declared that men met more advanced beings and in some cases that humans were created by them. Many descriptions of humans interactions with "demons", "angels", "gods", "spirits" read as some Close Encounters with non-human intelligent advanced civilizations. Book of Enoch is a good example thereof, but it's not the only one.

  174. @songbird
    @dfordoom

    IMO, space-going aliens would be the ultimate appeal to the authority for the I-effing-love-science crowd. They probably imagine it like Star Trek, where an alien planet had to have world government in order to join the Federation.

    I agree, it is not worth worrying about aliens. If they are motivated to come, they won't need to home-in on old episodes of I Love Lucy traveling through the ether. In fact, it is more probable that that sort of thing would keep them at a distance, so they could study us.

    There could be a lot of bottlenecks to intelligence. For example, suppose you took Earth, went back a million years, and somehow got rid of all the continents except for Africa and Australia, would humans have ever developed spaceflight? I'm not sure that they would have - in fact I think the answer is no. Similarly, there is dysgenics. By 2100, there are predictions that the average IQ of the UK will be 85.

    Though, on the other end of it, there are people who seem to be invested in there being no other life, even simple life, on other planets. I don't get it. I heard an atheist argue once that it would disprove the Bible, if alien life (even simple) was discovered, but I don't believe most Christians are literalists about Genesis.

    Replies: @Wency

    Though, on the other end of it, there are people who seem to be invested in there being no other life, even simple life, on other planets. I don’t get it. I heard an atheist argue once that it would disprove the Bible, if alien life (even simple) was discovered, but I don’t believe most Christians are literalists about Genesis.

    I’m not committed to the idea of Earth’s uniqueness one way or the other (Rare Earth Hypothesis), but a few thoughts:

    The uniqueness of Earth, if demonstrably true, would be an apologetics point in favor of an intelligent creator, even if its falsity wouldn’t refute the existence of that creator. A single instance of a fantastically improbable event might just be the result of chance, but it should also cause people to significantly “adjust their priors” and increase their estimation of the possibility that it was NOT the result of chance. People winning the lottery is not cause for suspicion, but the same man winning *every* lottery should probably make you very suspicious, even if it’s not technically impossible that this could happen in a series of fair contests.

    It can be seen as allied to the Fine-Tuning Argument, which argues that the laws of physics are specifically mathematically tuned in such a way as to make life possible.

    But from what I know of Young Earth Creationists (YECists), they’re divided on the matter of the possibility of alien life. I knew one personally who was a big sci-fi fan and figured aliens probably did exist, and God created them as well. But others do insist that Genesis excludes the possibility of life anywhere else.

    I’ll also observe that the Rare Earth Hypothesis doesn’t only appeal to Christians. Some secular scientists do seem to believe it on its merits. And certain techno-optimists/singularity-enthusiasts also believe it more religiously. There’s a certain tension within “I effing love science” here. If technology is our salvation and the inevitable result of technological civilization is the Dyson Sphere, interstellar colonization, and practical immortality, then where are all the aliens and their Dyson Spheres? Answer: we’re the only ones who have gotten this far, but we’ll get there, just you see.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Wency


    A single instance of a fantastically improbable event might just be the result of chance
     
    All single event situations are extremely improbable, but they happen.
    , @songbird
    @Wency


    Some secular scientists do seem to believe it on its merits. And certain techno-optimists/singularity-enthusiasts also believe it more religiously.
     
    Good point. Kurzweil (who I think is crazy) said he would be surprised if there were aliens out there, just because we don't see any big signs of advanced aliens or machine intelligence.

    Maybe, there are some who don't necessarily believe in the singularity but who would be disturbed by the possibility of any intelligent aliens (even technologically inferior) because it might imply moral limits on our ability to expand - that the good real estate is already taken up, so to speak.

    An interesting sci-fi plot that I've heard once is that aliens haven't contacted us because they are using humans that they collected in the distant past offworld as slaves, bred to task. And they don't want to disturb the wildtype, so they can still select stock from it, if necessary. Possibly unrealistic if you consider advanced economies with fewer resource limitations. But it is still an interesting idea: that they are already studying human beings seized in the past, in depth, off world.
  175. @Wency
    @songbird


    Though, on the other end of it, there are people who seem to be invested in there being no other life, even simple life, on other planets. I don’t get it. I heard an atheist argue once that it would disprove the Bible, if alien life (even simple) was discovered, but I don’t believe most Christians are literalists about Genesis.
     
    I'm not committed to the idea of Earth's uniqueness one way or the other (Rare Earth Hypothesis), but a few thoughts:

    The uniqueness of Earth, if demonstrably true, would be an apologetics point in favor of an intelligent creator, even if its falsity wouldn't refute the existence of that creator. A single instance of a fantastically improbable event might just be the result of chance, but it should also cause people to significantly "adjust their priors" and increase their estimation of the possibility that it was NOT the result of chance. People winning the lottery is not cause for suspicion, but the same man winning *every* lottery should probably make you very suspicious, even if it's not technically impossible that this could happen in a series of fair contests.

    It can be seen as allied to the Fine-Tuning Argument, which argues that the laws of physics are specifically mathematically tuned in such a way as to make life possible.

    But from what I know of Young Earth Creationists (YECists), they're divided on the matter of the possibility of alien life. I knew one personally who was a big sci-fi fan and figured aliens probably did exist, and God created them as well. But others do insist that Genesis excludes the possibility of life anywhere else.

    I'll also observe that the Rare Earth Hypothesis doesn't only appeal to Christians. Some secular scientists do seem to believe it on its merits. And certain techno-optimists/singularity-enthusiasts also believe it more religiously. There's a certain tension within "I effing love science" here. If technology is our salvation and the inevitable result of technological civilization is the Dyson Sphere, interstellar colonization, and practical immortality, then where are all the aliens and their Dyson Spheres? Answer: we're the only ones who have gotten this far, but we'll get there, just you see.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @songbird

    A single instance of a fantastically improbable event might just be the result of chance

    All single event situations are extremely improbable, but they happen.

  176. @songbird
    @Wency

    Thought it was a reference to the rather horrible movie Prometheus (2011). (prequel to Alien)

    Replies: @Wency, @Bashibuzuk

    OK, I actually saw that one, and I thought it was alright, not great or horrible.

    IIRC the idea was that aliens seeded life on Earth for some unknown reason and then largely left it be. This seems unlikely to me. But alien explorers dropping some sort of edible plants/livestock that are bio-engineered to dominate native species prior to a larger colonization mission within a few decades or centuries? This doesn’t sound totally absurd — it’s much like how European explorers would drop pigs on islands as a food source should they later return. I just don’t think there’s any reason to think any of this has anything to do with Earth.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Wency

    IMO, the movie gets kind of pretentious, confused, and even heretical, if you explore all the facets of it, and some offscreen plotpoints, such as Jesus was an alien. Definitely parts of it could be seen as woke, or even more feminist than the earlier entries. For me, I think it was a case of Ridley Scott was getting too old, the writers being hacks, and it is better to leave some things mysterious. Though, I understand it could be seen as a warning about AI or bioengineering.

    I could definitely see life being seeded by aliens. In fact, I could see them even engineering a process so that it happened naturally through panspermia. Panspermia itself doesn't seem so ridiculous if you consider amino acids can be found naturally in space, and there is a large degree of ebb and flow, or cross-pollination in the natural movements of matter in the universe - interstellar objects, stars passing each other.

  177. @Wency
    @songbird


    Though, on the other end of it, there are people who seem to be invested in there being no other life, even simple life, on other planets. I don’t get it. I heard an atheist argue once that it would disprove the Bible, if alien life (even simple) was discovered, but I don’t believe most Christians are literalists about Genesis.
     
    I'm not committed to the idea of Earth's uniqueness one way or the other (Rare Earth Hypothesis), but a few thoughts:

    The uniqueness of Earth, if demonstrably true, would be an apologetics point in favor of an intelligent creator, even if its falsity wouldn't refute the existence of that creator. A single instance of a fantastically improbable event might just be the result of chance, but it should also cause people to significantly "adjust their priors" and increase their estimation of the possibility that it was NOT the result of chance. People winning the lottery is not cause for suspicion, but the same man winning *every* lottery should probably make you very suspicious, even if it's not technically impossible that this could happen in a series of fair contests.

    It can be seen as allied to the Fine-Tuning Argument, which argues that the laws of physics are specifically mathematically tuned in such a way as to make life possible.

    But from what I know of Young Earth Creationists (YECists), they're divided on the matter of the possibility of alien life. I knew one personally who was a big sci-fi fan and figured aliens probably did exist, and God created them as well. But others do insist that Genesis excludes the possibility of life anywhere else.

    I'll also observe that the Rare Earth Hypothesis doesn't only appeal to Christians. Some secular scientists do seem to believe it on its merits. And certain techno-optimists/singularity-enthusiasts also believe it more religiously. There's a certain tension within "I effing love science" here. If technology is our salvation and the inevitable result of technological civilization is the Dyson Sphere, interstellar colonization, and practical immortality, then where are all the aliens and their Dyson Spheres? Answer: we're the only ones who have gotten this far, but we'll get there, just you see.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @songbird

    Some secular scientists do seem to believe it on its merits. And certain techno-optimists/singularity-enthusiasts also believe it more religiously.

    Good point. Kurzweil (who I think is crazy) said he would be surprised if there were aliens out there, just because we don’t see any big signs of advanced aliens or machine intelligence.

    Maybe, there are some who don’t necessarily believe in the singularity but who would be disturbed by the possibility of any intelligent aliens (even technologically inferior) because it might imply moral limits on our ability to expand – that the good real estate is already taken up, so to speak.

    An interesting sci-fi plot that I’ve heard once is that aliens haven’t contacted us because they are using humans that they collected in the distant past offworld as slaves, bred to task. And they don’t want to disturb the wildtype, so they can still select stock from it, if necessary. Possibly unrealistic if you consider advanced economies with fewer resource limitations. But it is still an interesting idea: that they are already studying human beings seized in the past, in depth, off world.

  178. @Wency
    @songbird

    OK, I actually saw that one, and I thought it was alright, not great or horrible.

    IIRC the idea was that aliens seeded life on Earth for some unknown reason and then largely left it be. This seems unlikely to me. But alien explorers dropping some sort of edible plants/livestock that are bio-engineered to dominate native species prior to a larger colonization mission within a few decades or centuries? This doesn't sound totally absurd -- it's much like how European explorers would drop pigs on islands as a food source should they later return. I just don't think there's any reason to think any of this has anything to do with Earth.

    Replies: @songbird

    IMO, the movie gets kind of pretentious, confused, and even heretical, if you explore all the facets of it, and some offscreen plotpoints, such as Jesus was an alien. Definitely parts of it could be seen as woke, or even more feminist than the earlier entries. For me, I think it was a case of Ridley Scott was getting too old, the writers being hacks, and it is better to leave some things mysterious. Though, I understand it could be seen as a warning about AI or bioengineering.

    I could definitely see life being seeded by aliens. In fact, I could see them even engineering a process so that it happened naturally through panspermia. Panspermia itself doesn’t seem so ridiculous if you consider amino acids can be found naturally in space, and there is a large degree of ebb and flow, or cross-pollination in the natural movements of matter in the universe – interstellar objects, stars passing each other.

    • Agree: mal
  179. mal says:
    @dfordoom
    @songbird


    NASA’s rough estimate from 2020 is at least 300 million habitable planets in the Galaxy.
     
    But we still have zero evidence for the existence of intelligent life beyond our own planet.

    Whether other intelligent life exists elsewhere in the galaxy is pretty much irrelevant. It seems a near certainty that we will never have any contact with such aliens so it's pointless worrying about them.

    What's interesting is that so many people just cannot deal with the likelihood that we will never ever contact aliens.

    It's not a case of I Want To Believe. It seems to be a case of I Need To Believe.

    Replies: @songbird, @mal, @S

    But we still have zero evidence for the existence of intelligent life beyond our own planet.

    Our observational capabilities are extremely limited.

    We also have no idea what vast majority of the universe looks like, or what truly advanced technology will look like.

    Intelligence is not required for developing highly advanced tech (never met a pigeon with a PhD), so while life is very easy to get going, and therefore should be rather abundant (it took less than few hundred million years on Earth for life to spread), intelligence as humans see it may well prove to be superfluous.

    But its not a closed case – human level intelligence is also easy to develop – it only took a few million years to go from apes to humans, and there are a number of species (octopus, dolphins, etc), that are about at the same level.

    So it is obvious that life and intelligence is very easy to make, and so is advanced technology. Just look around you. The biggest concern is that advanced intelligence appears to be dysgenic, which is puzzling, but it explains why not many species pursue this route.

    Basically, the smarter you are and the more you use the brain, the less you breed, which eliminates you from the gene pool. It is impossible to colonize the galaxy with Japanese people even with perfect technology because the quantity of Japanese is declining.

    If we can colonize 110 million stars with Japanese today (one person per star), in just 50 years this number will drop to like 80 million, and so on. If we don’t see intelligent aliens, that’s the Great Filter to watch out for. So i guess we will see.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @mal


    Basically, the smarter you are and the more you use the brain, the less you breed, which eliminates you from the gene pool. It is impossible to colonize the galaxy with Japanese people even with perfect technology because the quantity of Japanese is declining.

     

    I think I've heard the argument basically that the more intelligent you are, the more future planning that you do, which means that anxiety accordingly increases. At some point, anxiety becomes too high to take on risks like children.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Triteleia Laxa

    , @dfordoom
    @mal


    so while life is very easy to get going,
     
    Do we really know that? We have a sample size of one - the Earth. Can we really draw conclusions from a sample size of one?

    But its not a closed case – human level intelligence is also easy to develop
     
    Of all the species that have ever walked the Earth just one has developed human level intelligence. I'd say that that suggests that human level intelligence is very very difficult to develop.

    Replies: @mal

    , @sudden death
    @mal


    But its not a closed case – human level intelligence is also easy to develop – it only took a few million years to go from apes to humans, and there are a number of species (octopus, dolphins, etc), that are about at the same level.

    So it is obvious that life and intelligence is very easy to make, and so is advanced technology. Just look around you. The biggest concern is that advanced intelligence appears to be dysgenic, which is puzzling, but it explains why not many species pursue this route.
     
    But it took roughly 4,5 billion years of waiting for the moment when apes appeared on Earth for some reason, that is nearly 40% of all the time whole Universe does exist, it honestly seems unbelievably freakishly slow timeline and more likely confirms the idea that intelligence is very hard and time consuming task to do from the scratch.

    But once it appears, yeah, it seems to be capable to develop relatively quickly.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @mal

  180. @mal
    @dfordoom


    But we still have zero evidence for the existence of intelligent life beyond our own planet.
     
    Our observational capabilities are extremely limited.

    We also have no idea what vast majority of the universe looks like, or what truly advanced technology will look like.

    Intelligence is not required for developing highly advanced tech (never met a pigeon with a PhD), so while life is very easy to get going, and therefore should be rather abundant (it took less than few hundred million years on Earth for life to spread), intelligence as humans see it may well prove to be superfluous.

    But its not a closed case - human level intelligence is also easy to develop - it only took a few million years to go from apes to humans, and there are a number of species (octopus, dolphins, etc), that are about at the same level.

    So it is obvious that life and intelligence is very easy to make, and so is advanced technology. Just look around you. The biggest concern is that advanced intelligence appears to be dysgenic, which is puzzling, but it explains why not many species pursue this route.

    Basically, the smarter you are and the more you use the brain, the less you breed, which eliminates you from the gene pool. It is impossible to colonize the galaxy with Japanese people even with perfect technology because the quantity of Japanese is declining.

    If we can colonize 110 million stars with Japanese today (one person per star), in just 50 years this number will drop to like 80 million, and so on. If we don't see intelligent aliens, that's the Great Filter to watch out for. So i guess we will see.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @dfordoom, @sudden death

    Basically, the smarter you are and the more you use the brain, the less you breed, which eliminates you from the gene pool. It is impossible to colonize the galaxy with Japanese people even with perfect technology because the quantity of Japanese is declining.

    I think I’ve heard the argument basically that the more intelligent you are, the more future planning that you do, which means that anxiety accordingly increases. At some point, anxiety becomes too high to take on risks like children.

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Daniel Chieh

    It is impossible to plan in a manner to fully control reality. The Universe is just too complex and unpredictable. That is why it is sometimes important to play dumb and tell one's intelligence to keep it quiet. If being intelligent means one stops breeding, then it's better to let go of intelligence and keep the genetic lineage going. The future belongs to those to those who survive. No individual survives forever, but a genetic lineage survives for a very long time.

    , @Triteleia Laxa
    @Daniel Chieh

    Yes, this is the case, but you can learn to access parts of yourself other than your anxious thoughts.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  181. “The fact that alien life has not sought to colonize us almost certainly means that either the aliens don’t exist or they can’t get to us.”

    Your conception here ignores choice. Just because can does not mean one will. Whatever issues we has citizens of the US. We could have actually built empires of occupation – we chose not to do so.

    Life goes where it is most suited. Which explains why notions species specific locations. There are ;lots of places parrots could survive, simply don’t. An alien specie(even if human) is not going to occupy said space, if there’s is better or they are satisfied where they are or even adopt a disposition that they have no right to.

    Your binary suggestion is far too narrow view of life and existence.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @EliteCommInc.

    I think you're imagining things in terms of decades or centuries, and not over millions or billions of years, which should be the expected age of any hyper-advanced alien civilization, if it existed -- to be mere centuries or even millennia ahead of us would be an unbelievable coincidence.

    Yes, in the scale of centuries, choice can be relevant and civilizations can live happily and easily well below the Malthusian limit. Aliens could have pursued all sorts of cute projects vis-a-vis Earth in such a time. Studied it, harassed its inhabitants, ignored it, kept it as a wildlife preserve. But to prevent Earth from ever having been colonized and filled with aliens over the vast span of time available (a task that would only have needed a handful of alien breeding pairs and a few millennia at most), you need to assume an all-powerful anti-colonization alien government that successfully enforced its anti-colonization mandate basically for eternity.

  182. @EliteCommInc.
    "The fact that alien life has not sought to colonize us almost certainly means that either the aliens don’t exist or they can’t get to us."


    Your conception here ignores choice. Just because can does not mean one will. Whatever issues we has citizens of the US. We could have actually built empires of occupation - we chose not to do so.

    Life goes where it is most suited. Which explains why notions species specific locations. There are ;lots of places parrots could survive, simply don't. An alien specie(even if human) is not going to occupy said space, if there's is better or they are satisfied where they are or even adopt a disposition that they have no right to.


    Your binary suggestion is far too narrow view of life and existence.

    Replies: @Wency

    I think you’re imagining things in terms of decades or centuries, and not over millions or billions of years, which should be the expected age of any hyper-advanced alien civilization, if it existed — to be mere centuries or even millennia ahead of us would be an unbelievable coincidence.

    Yes, in the scale of centuries, choice can be relevant and civilizations can live happily and easily well below the Malthusian limit. Aliens could have pursued all sorts of cute projects vis-a-vis Earth in such a time. Studied it, harassed its inhabitants, ignored it, kept it as a wildlife preserve. But to prevent Earth from ever having been colonized and filled with aliens over the vast span of time available (a task that would only have needed a handful of alien breeding pairs and a few millennia at most), you need to assume an all-powerful anti-colonization alien government that successfully enforced its anti-colonization mandate basically for eternity.

    • Agree: dfordoom
  183. @Wency
    @Bashibuzuk

    I'm not sure if you're serious, but the idea sounds absurd to me. You'd have to expand on it to make it sound credible. To me it's incredible that people make these amazing leaps of logic and yet dismiss the possibility of God (even a deist God!) out of hand.

    If interstellar-travelling aliens are real, here's what colonization eventually looks like: alien breeding pairs land here (you only need maybe a dozen), multiply, fill the world, probably mine the asteroid belt, and eventually start sending out colonization ships of their own. If they're self-replicating robots, they do something not terribly different.

    All it takes is a handful of self-interested agents that like the idea of spreading across the stars and that pass that idea down to their progeny. I don't really buy this idea of an alien 5-D chess plan that perpetually ignores the basic incentives of life. These ideas all seem to assume, rather dubiously, that the aliens have some all-powerful, far-seeing anti-colonization central authority that never cracks or crumbles in millions or billions of years and across the entire scope of the Milky Way.

    Replies: @songbird, @Bashibuzuk

    interstellar-travelling aliens

    We don’t know if they are interstellar. We assume that UFOs are ETs, but we don’t know.

  184. Bashibuzuk says:
    @songbird
    @Wency

    Thought it was a reference to the rather horrible movie Prometheus (2011). (prequel to Alien)

    Replies: @Wency, @Bashibuzuk

    Well before any movies our myths accross tribal and ethnic boundaries declared that men met more advanced beings and in some cases that humans were created by them. Many descriptions of humans interactions with “demons”, “angels”, “gods”, “spirits” read as some Close Encounters with non-human intelligent advanced civilizations. Book of Enoch is a good example thereof, but it’s not the only one.

  185. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    @mal


    Basically, the smarter you are and the more you use the brain, the less you breed, which eliminates you from the gene pool. It is impossible to colonize the galaxy with Japanese people even with perfect technology because the quantity of Japanese is declining.

     

    I think I've heard the argument basically that the more intelligent you are, the more future planning that you do, which means that anxiety accordingly increases. At some point, anxiety becomes too high to take on risks like children.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Triteleia Laxa

    It is impossible to plan in a manner to fully control reality. The Universe is just too complex and unpredictable. That is why it is sometimes important to play dumb and tell one’s intelligence to keep it quiet. If being intelligent means one stops breeding, then it’s better to let go of intelligence and keep the genetic lineage going. The future belongs to those to those who survive. No individual survives forever, but a genetic lineage survives for a very long time.

  186. @Bashibuzuk
    @Dmitry


    logic binds also the nonhuman world as the merely human one.
     
    This is only true to some extent.

    There is something new in the modern world, in the revolution of knowledge (adjusting upwards in size and scale). in our understanding of the universe, and our understanding of the lowering importance of man (man’s centrality to the universe, being “lowered” with each century).
     
    Yes we know now that Earth is one among many millions of planets in our galaxy and that our DNA is basically the same as the one of the procaryotes. We also know that some of the basic chemical units needed to produce living beings biochemistry are already found in the planetary discs of the nascent solar systems. Despite all this we still believe that we are the pinnacle of creation. That's of course quite parochial.

    OTOH, in very ancient texts such as the Aṣṭasāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra, the Universe is already described as something very large, perhaps infinite, similar to "a flying ship traversing the void" and populated with a great many sentient beings (I cite here the Conze translation). Also in Tao Te Ching the true nature of Reality is described as unfathomable and humans are described as no better than "straw dogs" that were burned as a sacrifice by the ancient Han Chinese. So there were always people who were perhaps a little bit more open-minded that the average naked bipedal ape. Of course, for the average human the saying: "Give a monkey a brain and he will swear he is the center of the Universe " stays true no matter what.

    that we are able to follow to the extent of reducing our egos has been a merit to the modern world
     
    I believe we have not reduced our egos that much, arguably we live in the era of Peak Egotism and Maximum Nombrilisme (French for Navel-gazing). Everyone wants to be original, an individual and to live as long as possible, forever if possible. A lot of people would benefit from reading the Ecclesiastes or any other Axial Age book of wisdom to ground them a bit.

    The idea of travel between stars should be implausible under the current knowledge of physics, although the idea of very many existing habitats should be very plausible.

     

    I am pretty sure there a things in physics that we did not figure out yet that once done will allow us to travel to other stars if not to other galaxies. That is, if we survive as a species long enough to figure out what we are missing in the big picture. But given that we are genetically basically 98,5 % chimpanzee, half Pan troglodytes and half Pan paniscus, I believe it is highly probable that we will f*ck our world and destroy our civilization before we will get to the stars.

    A last hope that should protect our egos from having to experience a possibility that we are not the height of creation, is the distances involved that should make travel between stars implausible. So assuming there is not a problem with the current understanding of physics (which we can’t say certainly), then man’s ego should be safe for now from the experience of not being the apex of the animals.
     
    https://images.eil.com/large_image/FISHBONE_GIVE%2BA%2BMONKEY%2BA%2BBRAIN%85%2BAND%2BHELL%2BSWEAR%2BHES%2BTHE%2BCENTER%2BOF%2BTHE%2BUNIVERSE-697982.jpg

    Yep that's exactly what an upstart ape would really believe: that he's the Ape[x] of the Evolution (until proven wrong)...

    🙂

    Replies: @Dmitry

    It’s possible that for an alien visitor, humans would not be considered the most important or interesting animal here. Just as a gardener, might not consider the most successful and common plant in a garden, to be the most interesting one.

    Moreover, it is probable that humans would not seem significantly distinct from the other animals and plants, as reflects the objective situation – where a human and a hamster are almost biologically the same, and mentally not necessarily that distant.

    upstart ape would really believe

    And as primates, our common ancestor had looked like a squirrel – so we had real “lower class” squirrel grandparents collecting nuts, before those more pretentious monkey parents.

    Everyone wants to be original, an individual and to live as long as possible, forever if possible.

    I think this sense that we are original and individual, is not just natural, but also should have been historically accurate for us until quite recently.

    Invention of agriculture, and recent “breakout from Malthusian Trap” in the last few generations – has resulted in our massive reproducibility and devaluation of our value.

    We’re not well adapted for our role in a world where there are billions of replicas of ourselves, when for much of human history there might have been a maximum of 100,000 people in the world, living at any single time – and you would have only encountered not more than a couple of hundred of those people in your life, and could have objectively seemed very irreplaceable for your society.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Thanks: mal
  187. S says:
    @dfordoom
    @songbird


    NASA’s rough estimate from 2020 is at least 300 million habitable planets in the Galaxy.
     
    But we still have zero evidence for the existence of intelligent life beyond our own planet.

    Whether other intelligent life exists elsewhere in the galaxy is pretty much irrelevant. It seems a near certainty that we will never have any contact with such aliens so it's pointless worrying about them.

    What's interesting is that so many people just cannot deal with the likelihood that we will never ever contact aliens.

    It's not a case of I Want To Believe. It seems to be a case of I Need To Believe.

    Replies: @songbird, @mal, @S

    It seems a near certainty that we will never have any contact with such aliens so it’s pointless worrying about them.

    Certainly no need to ‘worry’ about such things. It’s not particularly productive, nor healthy.

    As for ‘never’ have any contact, well, never is a very long time.

    I imagine in the fourteenth century in both Europe, and say, the South Seas, each having society’s with (relatively speaking) primitive sailing ships, and changes in design slow to take place, that many thought in their respective cultures that ‘contact’ with alien people’s simply was never going to happen.

    Then came the 15th century revolution in Europe in ship design, the Carvels. Sure, they still had much to be desired, but compared to clinker construction the Carvels allowed for practical and relatively succesful trans-oceanic inter-continental ship travel.

    What followed afterward was the Age of Discovery in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, and the ‘alien’ European and South Seas’ peoples indeed making ‘contact’.

    Something like that Carvel revolution in ship design could happen with our primitive space ships of today, allowing for inter-stellar travel.

    And it could happen here (or ‘out there’) much quicker than we might think.

    Indeed, it may have already happened.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carvel_(boat_building)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Discovery

    • Agree: mal
  188. “I think you’re imagining things in terms of decades or centuries, and not over millions or billions of years, which should be the expected age of any hyper-advanced alien civilization, if it existed — to be mere centuries or even millennia ahead of us would be an unbelievable coincidence.”

    my comments require no time reference at all. The choice remains. i would challenge your position further on the matter of vacuum. There’s no rule that dictates empty livable space must be filled with life, merely because that space has an environment can maintain life. The assumption is predicated that life at some point will overtake space — because it must. But there’s no reason to conclude aliens won’t or haven’t met humans even before they experience the need for space.

    And again, even of the need arises, there’s no guarantee the space they desire is yours, even it’s livable, whether that meeting happens in 6 months or 6 trillion years.

  189. @mal
    @dfordoom


    But we still have zero evidence for the existence of intelligent life beyond our own planet.
     
    Our observational capabilities are extremely limited.

    We also have no idea what vast majority of the universe looks like, or what truly advanced technology will look like.

    Intelligence is not required for developing highly advanced tech (never met a pigeon with a PhD), so while life is very easy to get going, and therefore should be rather abundant (it took less than few hundred million years on Earth for life to spread), intelligence as humans see it may well prove to be superfluous.

    But its not a closed case - human level intelligence is also easy to develop - it only took a few million years to go from apes to humans, and there are a number of species (octopus, dolphins, etc), that are about at the same level.

    So it is obvious that life and intelligence is very easy to make, and so is advanced technology. Just look around you. The biggest concern is that advanced intelligence appears to be dysgenic, which is puzzling, but it explains why not many species pursue this route.

    Basically, the smarter you are and the more you use the brain, the less you breed, which eliminates you from the gene pool. It is impossible to colonize the galaxy with Japanese people even with perfect technology because the quantity of Japanese is declining.

    If we can colonize 110 million stars with Japanese today (one person per star), in just 50 years this number will drop to like 80 million, and so on. If we don't see intelligent aliens, that's the Great Filter to watch out for. So i guess we will see.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @dfordoom, @sudden death

    so while life is very easy to get going,

    Do we really know that? We have a sample size of one – the Earth. Can we really draw conclusions from a sample size of one?

    But its not a closed case – human level intelligence is also easy to develop

    Of all the species that have ever walked the Earth just one has developed human level intelligence. I’d say that that suggests that human level intelligence is very very difficult to develop.

    • Replies: @mal
    @dfordoom


    Do we really know that? We have a sample size of one – the Earth. Can we really draw conclusions from a sample size of one?
     
    Well, Earth tells us that very rapid development and spread of life is physically possible. We also know that our galaxy is filled with water and organic molecules necessary for life as we know it. And there's plenty of Earths out there - probably millions of iron core rocky planets within a short distance from the stars in our neighborhood. So Earth is not special, at least we haven't found any magic about it so far.

    So we know its possible, raw materials are abundant, and sites for life to occur are plentiful. I feel pretty confident making a prediction even with a sample size of one.


    Of all the species that have ever walked the Earth just one has developed human level intelligence. I’d say that that suggests that human level intelligence is very very difficult to develop.

     

    Or that human level intelligence is an evolutionary dead end and all animals that tried that route went extinct before they had a chance to make something grand. That would make human intelligence something like a peacock's tail - unique, but not excessively difficult to make. Simply avoided by other animals as excessive baggage with limited utility.

    I had mentioned that idea in some other posts - to test animal attitudes to intelligence, observe them in urban environments. I think cities are the best for maximizing returns on brain development as they operate with very predictable patterns - streets, traffic lights etc. Food is better too. So you should see urban animals outsmart the wilderness ones. But what will happen to urban animal fertility rates? That would be an interesting question to answer.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  190. mal says:
    @dfordoom
    @mal


    so while life is very easy to get going,
     
    Do we really know that? We have a sample size of one - the Earth. Can we really draw conclusions from a sample size of one?

    But its not a closed case – human level intelligence is also easy to develop
     
    Of all the species that have ever walked the Earth just one has developed human level intelligence. I'd say that that suggests that human level intelligence is very very difficult to develop.

    Replies: @mal

    Do we really know that? We have a sample size of one – the Earth. Can we really draw conclusions from a sample size of one?

    Well, Earth tells us that very rapid development and spread of life is physically possible. We also know that our galaxy is filled with water and organic molecules necessary for life as we know it. And there’s plenty of Earths out there – probably millions of iron core rocky planets within a short distance from the stars in our neighborhood. So Earth is not special, at least we haven’t found any magic about it so far.

    So we know its possible, raw materials are abundant, and sites for life to occur are plentiful. I feel pretty confident making a prediction even with a sample size of one.

    Of all the species that have ever walked the Earth just one has developed human level intelligence. I’d say that that suggests that human level intelligence is very very difficult to develop.

    Or that human level intelligence is an evolutionary dead end and all animals that tried that route went extinct before they had a chance to make something grand. That would make human intelligence something like a peacock’s tail – unique, but not excessively difficult to make. Simply avoided by other animals as excessive baggage with limited utility.

    I had mentioned that idea in some other posts – to test animal attitudes to intelligence, observe them in urban environments. I think cities are the best for maximizing returns on brain development as they operate with very predictable patterns – streets, traffic lights etc. Food is better too. So you should see urban animals outsmart the wilderness ones. But what will happen to urban animal fertility rates? That would be an interesting question to answer.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @mal


    Or that human level intelligence is an evolutionary dead end and all animals that tried that route went extinct before they had a chance to make something grand. That would make human intelligence something like a peacock’s tail – unique, but not excessively difficult to make. Simply avoided by other animals as excessive baggage with limited utility.
     
    That seems very very plausible.
  191. “I think cities are the best for maximizing returns on brain development as they operate with very predictable patterns – streets, traffic lights etc. Food is better too. So you should see urban animals outsmart the wilderness ones. But what will happen to urban animal fertility rates? That would be an interesting question to answer.”

    As someone who has lived in urban environments and observed the same — human behavior remains unpredictable, inspite of the rules posted everywhere how one should conduct themselves.

    https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2014.0834

    https://www.datasciencecentral.com/profiles/blogs/predictability-of-life-outcomes-guess-we-can-t-predict-everything

    Furthermore predictability is not a sign of intelligence, nor is linked to developing intelligence. Urban living may provoke intelligence development not from predictable routines, but interactions and scenarios that demand conflict – some stress characteristic that spurs problem solving or stress from desire to solve a problem.

    • Replies: @mal
    @EliteCommInc.


    Furthermore predictability is not a sign of intelligence, nor is linked to developing intelligence. Urban living may provoke intelligence development not from predictable routines, but interactions and scenarios that demand conflict – some stress characteristic that spurs problem solving or stress from desire to solve a problem.
     
    Nah, conflict is ever present and you are probably better off evolving sharp teeth or tiger claws for that.

    I think you misunderstood - intelligence is about recognizing predictable patterns, not necessarily following them. Intelligence is simply an evolutionary tool that lets you predict the future. By definition, that future must be predictable, that is, follow a pattern your intelligence can actually understand. If 'barrier to entry' is too high, and environment is too complex to comprehend, intelligence is completely useless and is a waste of time and energy.

    Imagine we lived in a world where tigers would appear randomly like subatomic particles in vacuum, and they would eat people. To predict the location of next tiger appearance, you would need something like quantum computer and IQ of 300. In this case, intelligence below that level would be worse than useless - Random Tiger would eat your Einstein while he tried to work out some equation helplessly, and then Random Tigers would eat the rest of your people.

    You would be much better off optimizing your breeding rate to that above of the rate of Random Tiger appearance and not worrying about intelligence or trying to predict anything.

    The only reason intelligence has value is because Tigers are not random, they move in a pattern, and those patterns are comprehensible. Higher intelligence lets you spot more patterns. But if there were no patterns to spot, or they were far too complex, it would be pointless.

    Hence my take on the cities - traffic regulations, restaurant garbage bin placement, etc, makes for a relatively dumbed down and predictable environment that makes intelligent pattern recognition worthwhile. Just like science is a dumbed down model of reality.

    So in 50 years, we should see urban rats getting accepted into Harvard PhD programs. :). But they also probably will have smaller families, go woke, and sue humanity for rat genocide, and form Rat Lives Matter movement. Humanity will be forced into bankruptcy trying to pay rat reparations. It will be difficult time.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  192. mal says:
    @EliteCommInc.
    "I think cities are the best for maximizing returns on brain development as they operate with very predictable patterns – streets, traffic lights etc. Food is better too. So you should see urban animals outsmart the wilderness ones. But what will happen to urban animal fertility rates? That would be an interesting question to answer."


    As someone who has lived in urban environments and observed the same -- human behavior remains unpredictable, inspite of the rules posted everywhere how one should conduct themselves.

    https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2014.0834

    https://www.datasciencecentral.com/profiles/blogs/predictability-of-life-outcomes-guess-we-can-t-predict-everything

    Furthermore predictability is not a sign of intelligence, nor is linked to developing intelligence. Urban living may provoke intelligence development not from predictable routines, but interactions and scenarios that demand conflict - some stress characteristic that spurs problem solving or stress from desire to solve a problem.

    Replies: @mal

    Furthermore predictability is not a sign of intelligence, nor is linked to developing intelligence. Urban living may provoke intelligence development not from predictable routines, but interactions and scenarios that demand conflict – some stress characteristic that spurs problem solving or stress from desire to solve a problem.

    Nah, conflict is ever present and you are probably better off evolving sharp teeth or tiger claws for that.

    I think you misunderstood – intelligence is about recognizing predictable patterns, not necessarily following them. Intelligence is simply an evolutionary tool that lets you predict the future. By definition, that future must be predictable, that is, follow a pattern your intelligence can actually understand. If ‘barrier to entry’ is too high, and environment is too complex to comprehend, intelligence is completely useless and is a waste of time and energy.

    Imagine we lived in a world where tigers would appear randomly like subatomic particles in vacuum, and they would eat people. To predict the location of next tiger appearance, you would need something like quantum computer and IQ of 300. In this case, intelligence below that level would be worse than useless – Random Tiger would eat your Einstein while he tried to work out some equation helplessly, and then Random Tigers would eat the rest of your people.

    You would be much better off optimizing your breeding rate to that above of the rate of Random Tiger appearance and not worrying about intelligence or trying to predict anything.

    The only reason intelligence has value is because Tigers are not random, they move in a pattern, and those patterns are comprehensible. Higher intelligence lets you spot more patterns. But if there were no patterns to spot, or they were far too complex, it would be pointless.

    Hence my take on the cities – traffic regulations, restaurant garbage bin placement, etc, makes for a relatively dumbed down and predictable environment that makes intelligent pattern recognition worthwhile. Just like science is a dumbed down model of reality.

    So in 50 years, we should see urban rats getting accepted into Harvard PhD programs. :). But they also probably will have smaller families, go woke, and sue humanity for rat genocide, and form Rat Lives Matter movement. Humanity will be forced into bankruptcy trying to pay rat reparations. It will be difficult time.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @mal

    I think your comment is a little rat-cist.

    (Sorry couldn't skip this one).

  193. @mal
    @EliteCommInc.


    Furthermore predictability is not a sign of intelligence, nor is linked to developing intelligence. Urban living may provoke intelligence development not from predictable routines, but interactions and scenarios that demand conflict – some stress characteristic that spurs problem solving or stress from desire to solve a problem.
     
    Nah, conflict is ever present and you are probably better off evolving sharp teeth or tiger claws for that.

    I think you misunderstood - intelligence is about recognizing predictable patterns, not necessarily following them. Intelligence is simply an evolutionary tool that lets you predict the future. By definition, that future must be predictable, that is, follow a pattern your intelligence can actually understand. If 'barrier to entry' is too high, and environment is too complex to comprehend, intelligence is completely useless and is a waste of time and energy.

    Imagine we lived in a world where tigers would appear randomly like subatomic particles in vacuum, and they would eat people. To predict the location of next tiger appearance, you would need something like quantum computer and IQ of 300. In this case, intelligence below that level would be worse than useless - Random Tiger would eat your Einstein while he tried to work out some equation helplessly, and then Random Tigers would eat the rest of your people.

    You would be much better off optimizing your breeding rate to that above of the rate of Random Tiger appearance and not worrying about intelligence or trying to predict anything.

    The only reason intelligence has value is because Tigers are not random, they move in a pattern, and those patterns are comprehensible. Higher intelligence lets you spot more patterns. But if there were no patterns to spot, or they were far too complex, it would be pointless.

    Hence my take on the cities - traffic regulations, restaurant garbage bin placement, etc, makes for a relatively dumbed down and predictable environment that makes intelligent pattern recognition worthwhile. Just like science is a dumbed down model of reality.

    So in 50 years, we should see urban rats getting accepted into Harvard PhD programs. :). But they also probably will have smaller families, go woke, and sue humanity for rat genocide, and form Rat Lives Matter movement. Humanity will be forced into bankruptcy trying to pay rat reparations. It will be difficult time.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    I think your comment is a little rat-cist.

    (Sorry couldn’t skip this one).

    • Agree: mal
  194. ” Intelligence is simply an evolutionary tool that lets you predict the future”

    Well,

    I appreciate you clarifying the predictability advance. That makes more sense. However, it doesn’t address choice. I have no response to evolutionary intelligence. It has very little relevance to the end game.

    1. Your argument is predicated on a disposition of survival. As i indicate early one. Life expands , but can and is for humans a also governed by choice. It is entirely possible and even likely that life as governed by or in intelligence of human beings will choose not to inhabit a perfectly livable space.

    A person looks to expand their family, they step outside looking for a larger space. In that search they find multiple suitable dwellings. Yet they choose one space over another. In fact choice will even allow them to choose more hostile environments, which life itself is harder. Humans are don’t not at rationally — depending on how one has designed the rational plane.

    Your example of city life — millions of people think it makes no sense to live in the city because as life would have it — people are in fact unpredictable , and the more people one surrounds themselves with increases the in the instances of unpredictable behavior.

    Further complicating your press, the more unpredictable people, the harder it is to determine the predictability of the life one is in. What you are really talking is has nothing to with intelligence development per se, but training, experienced or taught. Someone said or one learned, avoid that street and that person, take the A train instead of the B train. Now if you contended that life struggle or stress in urban life causes one to think more critically and develop intellectually, I would agree. If one dismisses instinct and then there is the possibility of choice.

    2. There is no obligatory vacuum regarding that demands life fill it. Life develops where it can, but there is no over riding urge that one must occupy said space. This is even more the case for intelligent beings. In fact, there are places that invite humans o come live there, but humans choose not to.

    In the end your press that if aliens exist they must meet humans has no standing for t5hose reasons

    1. choice

    2. there is no guaranteed life vacuum as plenty of habital space goes untouched — by humans and i suspect if aliens with the ability to travel via warp speed or bending spatial dimensions, what have you would also experience.

    In short your contend is that if I have not them they don’t exist. bypassing the metaphysical argument, that argument simply false. It is possible they don’t, but it won;t be because one has not met them.

    300 million possible planets

    There are 194 countries on this planet, I have been to I have been to eight if them and each time I returned to one. All throughout human history a desire and need for conquest is not a genetic disposition, even when one can.

    • Replies: @mal
    @EliteCommInc.


    There are 194 countries on this planet, I have been to I have been to eight if them and each time I returned to one. All throughout human history a desire and need for conquest is not a genetic disposition, even when one can.
     
    Well, humans somehow made it to populate those 194 countries. Maybe we will make it to see the aliens as well. :)
  195. mal says:
    @EliteCommInc.
    " Intelligence is simply an evolutionary tool that lets you predict the future"


    Well,

    I appreciate you clarifying the predictability advance. That makes more sense. However, it doesn't address choice. I have no response to evolutionary intelligence. It has very little relevance to the end game.

    1. Your argument is predicated on a disposition of survival. As i indicate early one. Life expands , but can and is for humans a also governed by choice. It is entirely possible and even likely that life as governed by or in intelligence of human beings will choose not to inhabit a perfectly livable space.

    A person looks to expand their family, they step outside looking for a larger space. In that search they find multiple suitable dwellings. Yet they choose one space over another. In fact choice will even allow them to choose more hostile environments, which life itself is harder. Humans are don't not at rationally -- depending on how one has designed the rational plane.

    Your example of city life --- millions of people think it makes no sense to live in the city because as life would have it -- people are in fact unpredictable , and the more people one surrounds themselves with increases the in the instances of unpredictable behavior.

    Further complicating your press, the more unpredictable people, the harder it is to determine the predictability of the life one is in. What you are really talking is has nothing to with intelligence development per se, but training, experienced or taught. Someone said or one learned, avoid that street and that person, take the A train instead of the B train. Now if you contended that life struggle or stress in urban life causes one to think more critically and develop intellectually, I would agree. If one dismisses instinct and then there is the possibility of choice.

    2. There is no obligatory vacuum regarding that demands life fill it. Life develops where it can, but there is no over riding urge that one must occupy said space. This is even more the case for intelligent beings. In fact, there are places that invite humans o come live there, but humans choose not to.


    In the end your press that if aliens exist they must meet humans has no standing for t5hose reasons


    1. choice

    2. there is no guaranteed life vacuum as plenty of habital space goes untouched -- by humans and i suspect if aliens with the ability to travel via warp speed or bending spatial dimensions, what have you would also experience.

    In short your contend is that if I have not them they don't exist. bypassing the metaphysical argument, that argument simply false. It is possible they don't, but it won;t be because one has not met them.

    300 million possible planets

    There are 194 countries on this planet, I have been to I have been to eight if them and each time I returned to one. All throughout human history a desire and need for conquest is not a genetic disposition, even when one can.

    Replies: @mal

    There are 194 countries on this planet, I have been to I have been to eight if them and each time I returned to one. All throughout human history a desire and need for conquest is not a genetic disposition, even when one can.

    Well, humans somehow made it to populate those 194 countries. Maybe we will make it to see the aliens as well. 🙂

  196. @mal
    @dfordoom


    Do we really know that? We have a sample size of one – the Earth. Can we really draw conclusions from a sample size of one?
     
    Well, Earth tells us that very rapid development and spread of life is physically possible. We also know that our galaxy is filled with water and organic molecules necessary for life as we know it. And there's plenty of Earths out there - probably millions of iron core rocky planets within a short distance from the stars in our neighborhood. So Earth is not special, at least we haven't found any magic about it so far.

    So we know its possible, raw materials are abundant, and sites for life to occur are plentiful. I feel pretty confident making a prediction even with a sample size of one.


    Of all the species that have ever walked the Earth just one has developed human level intelligence. I’d say that that suggests that human level intelligence is very very difficult to develop.

     

    Or that human level intelligence is an evolutionary dead end and all animals that tried that route went extinct before they had a chance to make something grand. That would make human intelligence something like a peacock's tail - unique, but not excessively difficult to make. Simply avoided by other animals as excessive baggage with limited utility.

    I had mentioned that idea in some other posts - to test animal attitudes to intelligence, observe them in urban environments. I think cities are the best for maximizing returns on brain development as they operate with very predictable patterns - streets, traffic lights etc. Food is better too. So you should see urban animals outsmart the wilderness ones. But what will happen to urban animal fertility rates? That would be an interesting question to answer.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Or that human level intelligence is an evolutionary dead end and all animals that tried that route went extinct before they had a chance to make something grand. That would make human intelligence something like a peacock’s tail – unique, but not excessively difficult to make. Simply avoided by other animals as excessive baggage with limited utility.

    That seems very very plausible.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  197. “Well, humans somehow made it to populate those 194 countries. Maybe we will make it to see the aliens as well.”

    Or maybe they already have and given the numbers as with countries, some they meet (few) and others they don’t.

    I appreciate the narratives the narratives of some humans who make the claim: George Hall recently poses some interesting thoughts as well as – the actual narrative of Travis Walton, not the movie — though impactful.

    Just because you and I have not met them (or haven’t recognized them – smiling) — doesn’t mean they don’t exist and haven’t visited.

  198. @mal
    @dfordoom


    But we still have zero evidence for the existence of intelligent life beyond our own planet.
     
    Our observational capabilities are extremely limited.

    We also have no idea what vast majority of the universe looks like, or what truly advanced technology will look like.

    Intelligence is not required for developing highly advanced tech (never met a pigeon with a PhD), so while life is very easy to get going, and therefore should be rather abundant (it took less than few hundred million years on Earth for life to spread), intelligence as humans see it may well prove to be superfluous.

    But its not a closed case - human level intelligence is also easy to develop - it only took a few million years to go from apes to humans, and there are a number of species (octopus, dolphins, etc), that are about at the same level.

    So it is obvious that life and intelligence is very easy to make, and so is advanced technology. Just look around you. The biggest concern is that advanced intelligence appears to be dysgenic, which is puzzling, but it explains why not many species pursue this route.

    Basically, the smarter you are and the more you use the brain, the less you breed, which eliminates you from the gene pool. It is impossible to colonize the galaxy with Japanese people even with perfect technology because the quantity of Japanese is declining.

    If we can colonize 110 million stars with Japanese today (one person per star), in just 50 years this number will drop to like 80 million, and so on. If we don't see intelligent aliens, that's the Great Filter to watch out for. So i guess we will see.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @dfordoom, @sudden death

    But its not a closed case – human level intelligence is also easy to develop – it only took a few million years to go from apes to humans, and there are a number of species (octopus, dolphins, etc), that are about at the same level.

    So it is obvious that life and intelligence is very easy to make, and so is advanced technology. Just look around you. The biggest concern is that advanced intelligence appears to be dysgenic, which is puzzling, but it explains why not many species pursue this route.

    But it took roughly 4,5 billion years of waiting for the moment when apes appeared on Earth for some reason, that is nearly 40% of all the time whole Universe does exist, it honestly seems unbelievably freakishly slow timeline and more likely confirms the idea that intelligence is very hard and time consuming task to do from the scratch.

    But once it appears, yeah, it seems to be capable to develop relatively quickly.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @sudden death

    There were several major extinctions before the Apes entered the scene. Imagine if the evolution proceeded straight from the therapsids to the first intelligent species without this unnecessary detour through the dinosaurs' evolutionary territory.

    , @mal
    @sudden death

    In my view, not enough extinction events. Punctuated equilibrium and all that. Extinctions clear up the living space and disrupt established hierarchies, and changing environments force new technology adoption.

    We wouldn't exist without Great Oxygen Holocaust, space rock wiping out the dinosaurs etc. More of those types of events would likely have accelerated things a bit.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  199. @Daniel Chieh
    @mal


    Basically, the smarter you are and the more you use the brain, the less you breed, which eliminates you from the gene pool. It is impossible to colonize the galaxy with Japanese people even with perfect technology because the quantity of Japanese is declining.

     

    I think I've heard the argument basically that the more intelligent you are, the more future planning that you do, which means that anxiety accordingly increases. At some point, anxiety becomes too high to take on risks like children.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Triteleia Laxa

    Yes, this is the case, but you can learn to access parts of yourself other than your anxious thoughts.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Triteleia Laxa

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin_(mental_state)

    Basically, you need to understand that everything might go wrong and keep on living as if you just dont give a f*ck and as if everything will be fine forever (which of course it won't be). One has to accept the non-linear nature of Reality and embrace it.


    Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the Mind

    Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and

    I must feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
     
    And so on, and so forth: "spiral on, keep moving"...



    https://youtu.be/Y7JG63IuaWs
  200. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Triteleia Laxa
    @Daniel Chieh

    Yes, this is the case, but you can learn to access parts of yourself other than your anxious thoughts.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin_(mental_state)

    Basically, you need to understand that everything might go wrong and keep on living as if you just dont give a f*ck and as if everything will be fine forever (which of course it won’t be). One has to accept the non-linear nature of Reality and embrace it.

    Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the Mind

    Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and

    I must feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

    And so on, and so forth: “spiral on, keep moving”…

    [MORE]

  201. @sudden death
    @mal


    But its not a closed case – human level intelligence is also easy to develop – it only took a few million years to go from apes to humans, and there are a number of species (octopus, dolphins, etc), that are about at the same level.

    So it is obvious that life and intelligence is very easy to make, and so is advanced technology. Just look around you. The biggest concern is that advanced intelligence appears to be dysgenic, which is puzzling, but it explains why not many species pursue this route.
     
    But it took roughly 4,5 billion years of waiting for the moment when apes appeared on Earth for some reason, that is nearly 40% of all the time whole Universe does exist, it honestly seems unbelievably freakishly slow timeline and more likely confirms the idea that intelligence is very hard and time consuming task to do from the scratch.

    But once it appears, yeah, it seems to be capable to develop relatively quickly.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @mal

    There were several major extinctions before the Apes entered the scene. Imagine if the evolution proceeded straight from the therapsids to the first intelligent species without this unnecessary detour through the dinosaurs’ evolutionary territory.

  202. mal says:
    @sudden death
    @mal


    But its not a closed case – human level intelligence is also easy to develop – it only took a few million years to go from apes to humans, and there are a number of species (octopus, dolphins, etc), that are about at the same level.

    So it is obvious that life and intelligence is very easy to make, and so is advanced technology. Just look around you. The biggest concern is that advanced intelligence appears to be dysgenic, which is puzzling, but it explains why not many species pursue this route.
     
    But it took roughly 4,5 billion years of waiting for the moment when apes appeared on Earth for some reason, that is nearly 40% of all the time whole Universe does exist, it honestly seems unbelievably freakishly slow timeline and more likely confirms the idea that intelligence is very hard and time consuming task to do from the scratch.

    But once it appears, yeah, it seems to be capable to develop relatively quickly.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @mal

    In my view, not enough extinction events. Punctuated equilibrium and all that. Extinctions clear up the living space and disrupt established hierarchies, and changing environments force new technology adoption.

    We wouldn’t exist without Great Oxygen Holocaust, space rock wiping out the dinosaurs etc. More of those types of events would likely have accelerated things a bit.

    • Disagree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @mal

    I think exactly the opposite. See my comment above. The extinctions have probably delayed the emergence of intelligence. The emergence of intelligence might have been due to an incremental process of the evolution of the CNS. The extinctions squandered the progress achieved and made inevitable a need to restart from a somewhat lower base.

    Replies: @mal

  203. Bashibuzuk says:
    @mal
    @sudden death

    In my view, not enough extinction events. Punctuated equilibrium and all that. Extinctions clear up the living space and disrupt established hierarchies, and changing environments force new technology adoption.

    We wouldn't exist without Great Oxygen Holocaust, space rock wiping out the dinosaurs etc. More of those types of events would likely have accelerated things a bit.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    I think exactly the opposite. See my comment above. The extinctions have probably delayed the emergence of intelligence. The emergence of intelligence might have been due to an incremental process of the evolution of the CNS. The extinctions squandered the progress achieved and made inevitable a need to restart from a somewhat lower base.

    • Replies: @mal
    @Bashibuzuk

    Disagree with you here. Evolution optimizes for a particular environment, and if that environment is static, evolution stops as well. There's no reason to evolve intelligence or anything at all really, if nothing ever changes.

    The more dynamic the environment, the more opportunities to try out new solutions. And of course, old solutions get obsolete. We call this process of obsolescence an "extinction event".

    Mammals were a solution to a dynamic problem of big space rock in the sky. No space rock, why mammals then? Might as well keep dinosaurs roaming the Earth forever.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  204. mal says:
    @Bashibuzuk
    @mal

    I think exactly the opposite. See my comment above. The extinctions have probably delayed the emergence of intelligence. The emergence of intelligence might have been due to an incremental process of the evolution of the CNS. The extinctions squandered the progress achieved and made inevitable a need to restart from a somewhat lower base.

    Replies: @mal

    Disagree with you here. Evolution optimizes for a particular environment, and if that environment is static, evolution stops as well. There’s no reason to evolve intelligence or anything at all really, if nothing ever changes.

    The more dynamic the environment, the more opportunities to try out new solutions. And of course, old solutions get obsolete. We call this process of obsolescence an “extinction event”.

    Mammals were a solution to a dynamic problem of big space rock in the sky. No space rock, why mammals then? Might as well keep dinosaurs roaming the Earth forever.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @mal

    Mammals were not a solution for anything. Nature doesn't have problems and it doesn't have solutions (У природы нет плохой погоды). Nature is stochastic: for whatever reason the mammals survived better the Yucatan meteorite impact. For some other reason dinosaurs survived better the extinction of the Permian fauna.

    OTOH, there is a strong tendency towards the "cephalization" (for the lack of a better term) that is the complexification of information processing in biological systems. That is why I believe that intelligent Therapsids are as much plausible as intelligent octopuses (or is it octopi ?).

    It has probably nothing to do with biology and something to do with the nature of Information itself.

    Bottom line, I am against mammalian chauvinism.

    🙂

    Replies: @mal

  205. Bashibuzuk says:
    @mal
    @Bashibuzuk

    Disagree with you here. Evolution optimizes for a particular environment, and if that environment is static, evolution stops as well. There's no reason to evolve intelligence or anything at all really, if nothing ever changes.

    The more dynamic the environment, the more opportunities to try out new solutions. And of course, old solutions get obsolete. We call this process of obsolescence an "extinction event".

    Mammals were a solution to a dynamic problem of big space rock in the sky. No space rock, why mammals then? Might as well keep dinosaurs roaming the Earth forever.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Mammals were not a solution for anything. Nature doesn’t have problems and it doesn’t have solutions (У природы нет плохой погоды). Nature is stochastic: for whatever reason the mammals survived better the Yucatan meteorite impact. For some other reason dinosaurs survived better the extinction of the Permian fauna.

    OTOH, there is a strong tendency towards the “cephalization” (for the lack of a better term) that is the complexification of information processing in biological systems. That is why I believe that intelligent Therapsids are as much plausible as intelligent octopuses (or is it octopi ?).

    It has probably nothing to do with biology and something to do with the nature of Information itself.

    Bottom line, I am against mammalian chauvinism.

    🙂

    • Replies: @mal
    @Bashibuzuk

    Well, mammals had thermal regulation system and dinosaurs didnt. Thermal regulation is incredibly wasteful in good times, but certainly helps when it gets cold in a space rock winter.

    Like komodo dragons weigh about half as much as a tiger, but they need 10 times less food to survive. So if weather is nice, komodo dragons are the way to go. But if it gets real cold, tigers will survive, but dragons won't.

    But without environmental changes, you won't be able to figure this out. Different environments require different solutions to survival, some move on, others get obsolete.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  206. mal says:
    @Bashibuzuk
    @mal

    Mammals were not a solution for anything. Nature doesn't have problems and it doesn't have solutions (У природы нет плохой погоды). Nature is stochastic: for whatever reason the mammals survived better the Yucatan meteorite impact. For some other reason dinosaurs survived better the extinction of the Permian fauna.

    OTOH, there is a strong tendency towards the "cephalization" (for the lack of a better term) that is the complexification of information processing in biological systems. That is why I believe that intelligent Therapsids are as much plausible as intelligent octopuses (or is it octopi ?).

    It has probably nothing to do with biology and something to do with the nature of Information itself.

    Bottom line, I am against mammalian chauvinism.

    🙂

    Replies: @mal

    Well, mammals had thermal regulation system and dinosaurs didnt. Thermal regulation is incredibly wasteful in good times, but certainly helps when it gets cold in a space rock winter.

    Like komodo dragons weigh about half as much as a tiger, but they need 10 times less food to survive. So if weather is nice, komodo dragons are the way to go. But if it gets real cold, tigers will survive, but dragons won’t.

    But without environmental changes, you won’t be able to figure this out. Different environments require different solutions to survival, some move on, others get obsolete.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @mal


    Well, mammals had thermal regulation system and dinosaurs didnt.
     
    Bird-like dinosaurs did have thermal regulation. All reptiles were not created equal.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaur

    BTW, they survived the dinosaur extinction and still are walking, or rather flying among us, we call them birds. Think about it next time you order chicken nuggets.

    Also Permian therapsids had a lot in common with mammals, they were basically proto-mammals that went extinct. That is why I wrote about them.

    https://www.gazeta.ru/science/2008/06/09_a_2748320.shtml
  207. Bashibuzuk says:
    @mal
    @Bashibuzuk

    Well, mammals had thermal regulation system and dinosaurs didnt. Thermal regulation is incredibly wasteful in good times, but certainly helps when it gets cold in a space rock winter.

    Like komodo dragons weigh about half as much as a tiger, but they need 10 times less food to survive. So if weather is nice, komodo dragons are the way to go. But if it gets real cold, tigers will survive, but dragons won't.

    But without environmental changes, you won't be able to figure this out. Different environments require different solutions to survival, some move on, others get obsolete.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Well, mammals had thermal regulation system and dinosaurs didnt.

    Bird-like dinosaurs did have thermal regulation. All reptiles were not created equal.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaur

    BTW, they survived the dinosaur extinction and still are walking, or rather flying among us, we call them birds. Think about it next time you order chicken nuggets.

    Also Permian therapsids had a lot in common with mammals, they were basically proto-mammals that went extinct. That is why I wrote about them.

    https://www.gazeta.ru/science/2008/06/09_a_2748320.shtml

    • Agree: mal, Vishnugupta
  208. I’ve had a look at The Katechon Hypothesis. I don’t think much of it since it assumes that the universe is pedestrian in nature. I’d say the aliens grow us like grass and are coming in to supervise the harvest of their product. That is to say, those who are left after the apocalyptic purge of the crap inhabit the supernatural universe. The crap is recycled into dust or inherits the earth as may be the same thing.

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