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Do you run the bioethicists over and call it a day, or do you use the trolley to send them to Gulag camps where they will have a unique and exciting opportunity to acquire practical experience in their area of expertise?

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Bioethics 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. Can we do both? Or at least feed bioethicists to genetically engineered lions.

    Trolley problem setup is annoying and I don’t quite understand why it should be some sort of utilitarian “greater good” test. I mean, throwing other fat people on the tracks is easy, doesn’t tell much about morality.

    I think proper test setup should have been “would it be morally good for your friend to throw you on the tracks to save trolley people?”. That would be a more revealing moral utilitarian test.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @mal

    Seems harsh.

    Under my plan, the most undesirable are all sent to a tropical island or Africa, depending on their crimes. The gulag is only a holding camp for deportees and incorrigibles who have successfully navigated the minefields and attempted to return.

    Though, naturally, these holding camps would be guarded by de-extincted ice age predators.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    , @Not Raul
    @mal


    I think proper test setup should have been “would it be morally good for your friend to throw you on the tracks to save trolley people?”. That would be a more revealing moral utilitarian test.
     
    Maybe; but I would have reservations about whether most people would answer that question honestly. People are often more heroic in their minds than in real life. Conversely, real heroes are often reluctant to be acknowledged as such.
    , @Wyatt
    @mal

    https://pics.me.me/the-trolley-problem-multi-track-drifting-22049890.png

    , @Kratoklastes
    @mal

    The trolley problem (TP) is just another cartoon first-year undergrad pedagogical example - like the Prisoners' Dilemma (PD) and to a lesser extent the Precautionary Principle (PP).

    Like the PD and PP, half-smart self-promoting fuckwits (HSSPFWs) cite the TP in order to convince neophytes that they (the HSSPFW) are thinking sophisticatedly about some or other issue.

    About 4 years ago the TP was getting mentioned all the time in reference to self-driving cars. Always by bullshit-artists who wanted a ticket into the conversation so that they could get a payday.

    It was lost on the HSSPFWs that any self-driving mechanism that got to the stage where it had to make the TP decision, was already a failure at its main role and ought to have been scrapped. A self-driving mechanism that survived to implementation would never get to the point where it had to make the TP decision, so "Instructions on how to handle the TP decision" are not necessary.

    Corner cases should be associated with dunce caps. People who mention corner cases as if they're relevant to the main game, identify themselves as suffering from Dunning-Kruger (which as I keep saying, is not evidence of stupidity; it's evidence of domain-incompetence).

    Sadly, most people are as ignorant as balls - so there is a market for HSSPFWs. Malcolm Gladwell's entire professional life is a perfect example. That Xendi moron and Tennessee Coates (or whatever their names are)... and on and on.

    Where's an actual lethal global pandemic when it's so sorely needed? The human gene pool needs such a thorough rinse-out.

    Replies: @Marshall Lentini

  3. Not coming up with a counter to the mutational load now accumulating due to the abolition of traditional selective factors is an ethical deficiency. As is cucking – no true bio-ethicist would ever cuck.

    Though, there is a place for bioethics. I don’t think we should build super Nigerians. Can a transhumanist really object to it? I also don’t think we should mess around with deadly diseases, except under the strictest security. No garage experiments with rabies, please.

  4. @mal
    Can we do both? Or at least feed bioethicists to genetically engineered lions.

    Trolley problem setup is annoying and I don't quite understand why it should be some sort of utilitarian "greater good" test. I mean, throwing other fat people on the tracks is easy, doesn't tell much about morality.

    I think proper test setup should have been "would it be morally good for your friend to throw you on the tracks to save trolley people?". That would be a more revealing moral utilitarian test.

    Replies: @songbird, @Not Raul, @Wyatt, @Kratoklastes

    Seems harsh.

    Under my plan, the most undesirable are all sent to a tropical island or Africa, depending on their crimes. The gulag is only a holding camp for deportees and incorrigibles who have successfully navigated the minefields and attempted to return.

    Though, naturally, these holding camps would be guarded by de-extincted ice age predators.

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @songbird

    Ensure that your holding camps do not include a de-lousing chamber, otherwise you are opening yourself up for all sorts of trouble.

    Replies: @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

  5. @songbird
    @mal

    Seems harsh.

    Under my plan, the most undesirable are all sent to a tropical island or Africa, depending on their crimes. The gulag is only a holding camp for deportees and incorrigibles who have successfully navigated the minefields and attempted to return.

    Though, naturally, these holding camps would be guarded by de-extincted ice age predators.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    Ensure that your holding camps do not include a de-lousing chamber, otherwise you are opening yourself up for all sorts of trouble.

    • LOL: Kratoklastes
    • Replies: @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @Kent Nationalist


    Ensure that your holding camps do not include a de-lousing chamber, otherwise you are opening yourself up for all sorts of trouble.

     

    Nor should they include crematorium ovens for the hygienic disposal of bodies...

    Himmler: In order to stop the epidemic, we were forced to cremate the bodies of the many people that died of the disease. That was the reason we had to build the crematoria, and now, because of this everybody wants to tighten the noose around our neck.
     

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/05/23/09/28733270-8350107-image-a-30_1590223941607.jpg

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

  6. First option seems to be the wisest.

  7. @Kent Nationalist
    @songbird

    Ensure that your holding camps do not include a de-lousing chamber, otherwise you are opening yourself up for all sorts of trouble.

    Replies: @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Ensure that your holding camps do not include a de-lousing chamber, otherwise you are opening yourself up for all sorts of trouble.

    Nor should they include crematorium ovens for the hygienic disposal of bodies…

    Himmler: In order to stop the epidemic, we were forced to cremate the bodies of the many people that died of the disease. That was the reason we had to build the crematoria, and now, because of this everybody wants to tighten the noose around our neck.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I have been following with interest the stories from Denmark about the huge issues posed by disposing of millions of mink bodies

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @songbird

  8. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @Kent Nationalist


    Ensure that your holding camps do not include a de-lousing chamber, otherwise you are opening yourself up for all sorts of trouble.

     

    Nor should they include crematorium ovens for the hygienic disposal of bodies...

    Himmler: In order to stop the epidemic, we were forced to cremate the bodies of the many people that died of the disease. That was the reason we had to build the crematoria, and now, because of this everybody wants to tighten the noose around our neck.
     

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/05/23/09/28733270-8350107-image-a-30_1590223941607.jpg

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    I have been following with interest the stories from Denmark about the huge issues posed by disposing of millions of mink bodies

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Kent Nationalist

    https://twitter.com/AlexVanopslagh/status/1331961243989585921?s=20

    , @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @Kent Nationalist

    2001 United Kingdom foot-and-mouth outbreak


    The outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in the United Kingdom in 2001 caused a crisis in British agriculture and tourism. This epizootic saw 2,000 cases of the disease in farms across most of the British countryside. Over 6 million cows and sheep were killed in an eventually successful attempt to halt the disease.
     
    Hmmm



    https://i.ibb.co/MRDmmGg/FM1.jpg

    https://i.ibb.co/cJZxtP6/FM2.jpg

    Replies: @Kratoklastes, @Kratoklastes

    , @songbird
    @Kent Nationalist

    Might make a good camp location for migrants.

  9. Making a running man style reality show out of them would be best. Send them to some pacific island or corner of Africa infested with cannibals and see how long they survive. As per their own theories these tribes are just as smart as any Asian or European 1st world population and since they aren’t held back by racism or oppressive European cultural norms their experiences should be positive and they have no grounds to object. If anything we are doing them a favor by giving them an opportunity to prove just how noble the savages are. For us it would just be amusing to see how fast they end up getting eaten or sacrificed to the rain god or whatever.

  10. @Kent Nationalist
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I have been following with interest the stories from Denmark about the huge issues posed by disposing of millions of mink bodies

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @songbird

  11. @Kent Nationalist
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I have been following with interest the stories from Denmark about the huge issues posed by disposing of millions of mink bodies

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @songbird

    2001 United Kingdom foot-and-mouth outbreak

    The outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in the United Kingdom in 2001 caused a crisis in British agriculture and tourism. This epizootic saw 2,000 cases of the disease in farms across most of the British countryside. Over 6 million cows and sheep were killed in an eventually successful attempt to halt the disease.

    Hmmm

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I bet you could find the BSE mass graves with ground-penetrating radar.

    It's likely that you could find them from high-res satellite imagery, given how good people have become at noticing long-lasting changed to terrain (e.g., the discovery that Mesoamerican cities were 60x as large as initially thought; the location of hitherto-unidentified Egyptian temples).

    Also: the average "Mad Cow" memoir would be more plausible than the average memoir from the camp-based unpleasantness of the 1940s.

    Be fair though: the death toll in the 1940s was paltry compared to the death tolls at ALexandria and Bethar (both mentioned in Gittin 57b). The Nazis wimped it compared to the Emperor Hadrian.

    At Alexandria (just a warmup), Hadrian killed "sixty myriads on sixty myriads, twice as many as went forth from Egypt".

    Being conservative, let's call that 1.2 million (which nicely is 120 × 10,000: a myriad is 10,000). 1.2m is double the 600,000 military-aged males mentioned in Exodus.

    In reality, if there were 600k MAMs, there would have been 2m people overall (women, children, and elderly males). Double that and you're getting towards the pre-revision Auschwitz numbers.

    At Bet[h]ar, though? Hadrian killed the fuck out of people:


    "the emperor Hadrian who killed in the city of Betar four hundred thousand myriads, or as some say, four thousand myriads"
     
    400,000 x 10,000 = 4 billion-with-a-B.

    4,000 × 10,000 =- 40 million.

    Modern translations Jew their way around the Betar bodycount (reducing it to between 4 and 40 million).

    Needless to say: there were nowhere near 4 million Israelites in Hadrian's day (117-138CE), let alone 40m. (Global population was somewhere between 180m and 300m; the Roman Empire only had 45m inhabitants).

    (((Some folks))) are congenitally incapable of 'telling it like it is".

    Replies: @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    , @Kratoklastes
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Also, this is a useful thing to point out: that alarmist prick responsible for epidemiological modelling at ICL - Ferguson - said that vCJD (human BSE, effectively) would have a death toll of upwards of 180,000 over the following years.

    Actual number of vCJD deaths: 247

    Number of deaths that occurred after Ferguson's forecast: 27.


    20 years later, "The Sky Is Falling!" still works like a charm.

    Humans are stupid cunts, falling for alarmist bullshit from charlatans for going on 6,000 years.

  12. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @Kent Nationalist

    2001 United Kingdom foot-and-mouth outbreak


    The outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in the United Kingdom in 2001 caused a crisis in British agriculture and tourism. This epizootic saw 2,000 cases of the disease in farms across most of the British countryside. Over 6 million cows and sheep were killed in an eventually successful attempt to halt the disease.
     
    Hmmm



    https://i.ibb.co/MRDmmGg/FM1.jpg

    https://i.ibb.co/cJZxtP6/FM2.jpg

    Replies: @Kratoklastes, @Kratoklastes

    I bet you could find the BSE mass graves with ground-penetrating radar.

    It’s likely that you could find them from high-res satellite imagery, given how good people have become at noticing long-lasting changed to terrain (e.g., the discovery that Mesoamerican cities were 60x as large as initially thought; the location of hitherto-unidentified Egyptian temples).

    Also: the average “Mad Cow” memoir would be more plausible than the average memoir from the camp-based unpleasantness of the 1940s.

    Be fair though: the death toll in the 1940s was paltry compared to the death tolls at ALexandria and Bethar (both mentioned in Gittin 57b). The Nazis wimped it compared to the Emperor Hadrian.

    At Alexandria (just a warmup), Hadrian killed “sixty myriads on sixty myriads, twice as many as went forth from Egypt“.

    Being conservative, let’s call that 1.2 million (which nicely is 120 × 10,000: a myriad is 10,000). 1.2m is double the 600,000 military-aged males mentioned in Exodus.

    In reality, if there were 600k MAMs, there would have been 2m people overall (women, children, and elderly males). Double that and you’re getting towards the pre-revision Auschwitz numbers.

    At Bet[h]ar, though? Hadrian killed the fuck out of people:

    the emperor Hadrian who killed in the city of Betar four hundred thousand myriads, or as some say, four thousand myriads

    400,000 x 10,000 = 4 billion-with-a-B.

    4,000 × 10,000 =- 40 million.

    Modern translations Jew their way around the Betar bodycount (reducing it to between 4 and 40 million).

    Needless to say: there were nowhere near 4 million Israelites in Hadrian’s day (117-138CE), let alone 40m. (Global population was somewhere between 180m and 300m; the Roman Empire only had 45m inhabitants).

    (((Some folks))) are congenitally incapable of ‘telling it like it is”.

    • Replies: @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @Kratoklastes


    Needless to say: there were nowhere near 4 million Israelites in Hadrian’s day (117-138CE), let alone 40m. (Global population was somewhere between 180m and 300m; the Roman Empire only had 45m inhabitants).
     
    From the comic, Tales of the Holohoax

    https://katana17.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Tales-of-the-Holocaust547.jpg

    I think the following panel was a reference to the Gerstein Report

    https://katana17.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Tales-of-the-Holocaust565.jpg

    Replies: @Not Raul

  13. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @Kent Nationalist

    2001 United Kingdom foot-and-mouth outbreak


    The outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in the United Kingdom in 2001 caused a crisis in British agriculture and tourism. This epizootic saw 2,000 cases of the disease in farms across most of the British countryside. Over 6 million cows and sheep were killed in an eventually successful attempt to halt the disease.
     
    Hmmm



    https://i.ibb.co/MRDmmGg/FM1.jpg

    https://i.ibb.co/cJZxtP6/FM2.jpg

    Replies: @Kratoklastes, @Kratoklastes

    Also, this is a useful thing to point out: that alarmist prick responsible for epidemiological modelling at ICL – Ferguson – said that vCJD (human BSE, effectively) would have a death toll of upwards of 180,000 over the following years.

    Actual number of vCJD deaths: 247

    Number of deaths that occurred after Ferguson’s forecast: 27.

    20 years later, “The Sky Is Falling!” still works like a charm.

    Humans are stupid cunts, falling for alarmist bullshit from charlatans for going on 6,000 years.

  14. @Kratoklastes
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I bet you could find the BSE mass graves with ground-penetrating radar.

    It's likely that you could find them from high-res satellite imagery, given how good people have become at noticing long-lasting changed to terrain (e.g., the discovery that Mesoamerican cities were 60x as large as initially thought; the location of hitherto-unidentified Egyptian temples).

    Also: the average "Mad Cow" memoir would be more plausible than the average memoir from the camp-based unpleasantness of the 1940s.

    Be fair though: the death toll in the 1940s was paltry compared to the death tolls at ALexandria and Bethar (both mentioned in Gittin 57b). The Nazis wimped it compared to the Emperor Hadrian.

    At Alexandria (just a warmup), Hadrian killed "sixty myriads on sixty myriads, twice as many as went forth from Egypt".

    Being conservative, let's call that 1.2 million (which nicely is 120 × 10,000: a myriad is 10,000). 1.2m is double the 600,000 military-aged males mentioned in Exodus.

    In reality, if there were 600k MAMs, there would have been 2m people overall (women, children, and elderly males). Double that and you're getting towards the pre-revision Auschwitz numbers.

    At Bet[h]ar, though? Hadrian killed the fuck out of people:


    "the emperor Hadrian who killed in the city of Betar four hundred thousand myriads, or as some say, four thousand myriads"
     
    400,000 x 10,000 = 4 billion-with-a-B.

    4,000 × 10,000 =- 40 million.

    Modern translations Jew their way around the Betar bodycount (reducing it to between 4 and 40 million).

    Needless to say: there were nowhere near 4 million Israelites in Hadrian's day (117-138CE), let alone 40m. (Global population was somewhere between 180m and 300m; the Roman Empire only had 45m inhabitants).

    (((Some folks))) are congenitally incapable of 'telling it like it is".

    Replies: @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Needless to say: there were nowhere near 4 million Israelites in Hadrian’s day (117-138CE), let alone 40m. (Global population was somewhere between 180m and 300m; the Roman Empire only had 45m inhabitants).

    From the comic, Tales of the Holohoax

    [MORE]

    I think the following panel was a reference to the Gerstein Report

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I never knew that R. Crumb made historical comics.

    Replies: @jamie b.

  15. @mal
    Can we do both? Or at least feed bioethicists to genetically engineered lions.

    Trolley problem setup is annoying and I don't quite understand why it should be some sort of utilitarian "greater good" test. I mean, throwing other fat people on the tracks is easy, doesn't tell much about morality.

    I think proper test setup should have been "would it be morally good for your friend to throw you on the tracks to save trolley people?". That would be a more revealing moral utilitarian test.

    Replies: @songbird, @Not Raul, @Wyatt, @Kratoklastes

    I think proper test setup should have been “would it be morally good for your friend to throw you on the tracks to save trolley people?”. That would be a more revealing moral utilitarian test.

    Maybe; but I would have reservations about whether most people would answer that question honestly. People are often more heroic in their minds than in real life. Conversely, real heroes are often reluctant to be acknowledged as such.

    • Agree: mal
  16. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @Kratoklastes


    Needless to say: there were nowhere near 4 million Israelites in Hadrian’s day (117-138CE), let alone 40m. (Global population was somewhere between 180m and 300m; the Roman Empire only had 45m inhabitants).
     
    From the comic, Tales of the Holohoax

    https://katana17.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Tales-of-the-Holocaust547.jpg

    I think the following panel was a reference to the Gerstein Report

    https://katana17.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Tales-of-the-Holocaust565.jpg

    Replies: @Not Raul

    I never knew that R. Crumb made historical comics.

    • Replies: @jamie b.
    @Not Raul

    Looks nothing like Crumb.

    Replies: @Not Raul

  17. @Kent Nationalist
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I have been following with interest the stories from Denmark about the huge issues posed by disposing of millions of mink bodies

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @songbird

    Might make a good camp location for migrants.

  18. @mal
    Can we do both? Or at least feed bioethicists to genetically engineered lions.

    Trolley problem setup is annoying and I don't quite understand why it should be some sort of utilitarian "greater good" test. I mean, throwing other fat people on the tracks is easy, doesn't tell much about morality.

    I think proper test setup should have been "would it be morally good for your friend to throw you on the tracks to save trolley people?". That would be a more revealing moral utilitarian test.

    Replies: @songbird, @Not Raul, @Wyatt, @Kratoklastes

    • Agree: Max Payne, mal
  19. @mal
    Can we do both? Or at least feed bioethicists to genetically engineered lions.

    Trolley problem setup is annoying and I don't quite understand why it should be some sort of utilitarian "greater good" test. I mean, throwing other fat people on the tracks is easy, doesn't tell much about morality.

    I think proper test setup should have been "would it be morally good for your friend to throw you on the tracks to save trolley people?". That would be a more revealing moral utilitarian test.

    Replies: @songbird, @Not Raul, @Wyatt, @Kratoklastes

    The trolley problem (TP) is just another cartoon first-year undergrad pedagogical example – like the Prisoners’ Dilemma (PD) and to a lesser extent the Precautionary Principle (PP).

    Like the PD and PP, half-smart self-promoting fuckwits (HSSPFWs) cite the TP in order to convince neophytes that they (the HSSPFW) are thinking sophisticatedly about some or other issue.

    About 4 years ago the TP was getting mentioned all the time in reference to self-driving cars. Always by bullshit-artists who wanted a ticket into the conversation so that they could get a payday.

    It was lost on the HSSPFWs that any self-driving mechanism that got to the stage where it had to make the TP decision, was already a failure at its main role and ought to have been scrapped. A self-driving mechanism that survived to implementation would never get to the point where it had to make the TP decision, so “Instructions on how to handle the TP decision” are not necessary.

    Corner cases should be associated with dunce caps. People who mention corner cases as if they’re relevant to the main game, identify themselves as suffering from Dunning-Kruger (which as I keep saying, is not evidence of stupidity; it’s evidence of domain-incompetence).

    Sadly, most people are as ignorant as balls – so there is a market for HSSPFWs. Malcolm Gladwell’s entire professional life is a perfect example. That Xendi moron and Tennessee Coates (or whatever their names are)… and on and on.

    Where’s an actual lethal global pandemic when it’s so sorely needed? The human gene pool needs such a thorough rinse-out.

    • Replies: @Marshall Lentini
    @Kratoklastes

    so thinkful

  20. For a second I thought this article was going to be about supermarkets, a “trolley” in the UK is what I guess most posters here would call a “shopping cart”. A “trolley” in this context would be a “tram” in the UK.

    It’s interesting how simple word differences in the same language can result in quite different interpretations of the meaning.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  21. @Not Raul
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I never knew that R. Crumb made historical comics.

    Replies: @jamie b.

    Looks nothing like Crumb.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    @jamie b.

    Sorry, it was a dumb joke.

    Replies: @jamie b.

  22. @Kratoklastes
    @mal

    The trolley problem (TP) is just another cartoon first-year undergrad pedagogical example - like the Prisoners' Dilemma (PD) and to a lesser extent the Precautionary Principle (PP).

    Like the PD and PP, half-smart self-promoting fuckwits (HSSPFWs) cite the TP in order to convince neophytes that they (the HSSPFW) are thinking sophisticatedly about some or other issue.

    About 4 years ago the TP was getting mentioned all the time in reference to self-driving cars. Always by bullshit-artists who wanted a ticket into the conversation so that they could get a payday.

    It was lost on the HSSPFWs that any self-driving mechanism that got to the stage where it had to make the TP decision, was already a failure at its main role and ought to have been scrapped. A self-driving mechanism that survived to implementation would never get to the point where it had to make the TP decision, so "Instructions on how to handle the TP decision" are not necessary.

    Corner cases should be associated with dunce caps. People who mention corner cases as if they're relevant to the main game, identify themselves as suffering from Dunning-Kruger (which as I keep saying, is not evidence of stupidity; it's evidence of domain-incompetence).

    Sadly, most people are as ignorant as balls - so there is a market for HSSPFWs. Malcolm Gladwell's entire professional life is a perfect example. That Xendi moron and Tennessee Coates (or whatever their names are)... and on and on.

    Where's an actual lethal global pandemic when it's so sorely needed? The human gene pool needs such a thorough rinse-out.

    Replies: @Marshall Lentini

    so thinkful

  23. Solution to the trolley problem: flip a coin.
    Solution to bioethicists: flip a bird.

  24. @jamie b.
    @Not Raul

    Looks nothing like Crumb.

    Replies: @Not Raul

    Sorry, it was a dumb joke.

    • Replies: @jamie b.
    @Not Raul

    Actually, there is this...

    https://www.amazon.com/Book-Genesis-Illustrated-R-Crumb/dp/0393061027

  25. @Not Raul
    @jamie b.

    Sorry, it was a dumb joke.

    Replies: @jamie b.

    Actually, there is this…

    • Thanks: Not Raul

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