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The Karabakh War, Now and Then
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I’m not a huge YouTube person, but this genre of “day by day”‘s for various historical events has become a popular genre and one of my favorites. Certainly a useful visual guide to reading about it. And in this case useful as a comparator to what’s happening today.

First observation – Armenia started off in a much worse position geographically. Indeed, as late as the start of May 1992, Artsakh had been a complete exclave with no physical connection to Armenia.

Second observation – initial Azeri successes in both wars. In June 1992, the Azeris successfully captured large parts of the northern and east-central parts of Artsakh. But then they stalled, and after see-sawing back and forth, the Armenians would be making constant advances from April 1993 until Azerbaijan was reduced to “human wave” tactics by early 1994 and a ceasefire in May 1994.

Now with Hadrun having fallen, the Azeris having seized a large part of the Artsakh-Iranian border, and with Fuzuli, in all likelihood, fated to fall sometime soon, we can say the Azeris have at the very least replicated their first month success in the previous war, with a far better kill ratio so far (perhaps ~1,000 Armenian KIA / 6,000 total during 1992-94 vs. ~2,000 Azeri KIA / 25,000 total during 1992-94). But will this hold? It did not, after all, during the first war.

We could take a point by point look at the reasons for the Armenian advantage during the first war and how it compares to the situation today:

(1) Strong defensive positions /// Perhaps the one thing that significantly privileges Armenians more, they’ve had decades to study their map out their lands to the finest detail, presight all the artillery, construct fortifications, etc. Verdict: Gain to Armenia.

(2) Higher morale of Armenian soldiers due to fighting a defensive war, though only became marked in 1993 and disastrous by early 1994 /// Can’t say it should be very different today – IF the conflicts lasts that long. However, Azerbaijan’s ability to weather losses is now higher due to more favorable demographics than Armenia, even relative to 1992. (Population gap has widened from 2.5x to 3.3x). They have also been inculcated with anti-Armenian propaganda over the past generation, as opposed to early 1990s era Azeris who grew up on Soviet “friendship of peoples” propaganda (though it never percolated deep in the Caucasus). I think the average young Azeri will be more committed than his counterpart a generation ago. Verdict: Minor gain to Azerbaijan.

(3) The Azeri Army being a bunch of unprofessional volunteers in 1992 and demoralized conscripts in 1994, the higher officer quality of the Armenians (in large part thanks to the Azeris’ own animosity towards the Soviet regime), and having a similar pool of post-Soviet military equipment stock /// Well, need I really repost my CMP and military spending graphs for the nth time. Verdict: Major gain to Azerbaijan.

(4) Likely higher human capital of Armenians per se /// Probably remains true, yes, it’s sometimes hard to believe seeing the videos of them clustering three trucks and 50 people besides a cliff, or camouflaging a tank like a big bush in an open field and not even clearing the tracks behind it. Then again, in such cases we are seeing a selection effect where clustered Armenians get blown up, we don’t see those cases – the vast majority – where they are dispersed and the Azeri drones either don’t shoot, or expend their munitions – or themselves – for nothing. Probably in net terms the Armenians remain innately higher quality soldiers as suggested by respective national IQs (~3 IQ point Armenian advantage over Azeris?) and past experience, but will be harder to translate into success for the same reason Germans rolled over the French and British in 1940 but couldn’t cope against the Western Allies’ much greater relative materiel superiority come 1944 (pertains to previous point). Verdict: No change.

(5) Motivated Armenian diaspora fighters vs. Shamil Basayev’s Chechen jihadists who did not like fighting for secular Shi’ites and were soon on their way out. /// Armenian diaspora patriotism is certainly still a thing, Kardashian aside, the Armenian community have already contributed more than $100 million to Armenia, that is not an entirely negligible sum – that already constitutes almost a fifth of annual Armenian military spending. But the Azeris now have access to Turkish-provisioned jihadists, they might not be any more enthusiastic than the Chechens, but they are paid generously for it and as such will not be as ready to desert as Chechens. Though, they’ll be less effective. Verdict: No change.

(6) In political terms, both Armenia and Azerbaijan were chaotic, unstable democracies in the 1990s /// Today Armenia is a democracy and Azerbaijan is an authoritarian dictatorship. The latter has distinct advantages in terms of more leeway over repressing anti-war agitators (not that Azerbaijan seems to have any problems with that… yet) and censoring information (e.g. casualties). Democracy, as well as the Armenian Genocide, might garner the Armenians some global sympathy – and the Armenians have been successful at getting their genocide recognized by more and more countries. But I don’t think that’s going to play a role outside Reddit. Verdict: Minor gain to Azerbaijan.

(7) The Turks did not interfere beyond a blockade and arms aid, with Russia providing arms to Armenia. Turkey is still oriented on joining the EU and avoiding a clash of civilization, with Turkish PM Demirel in 1992 explicitly opposing an open military operation in order to avoid a “greater Muslim-Christian conflict”. /// Turkey is now led by Erdogan, who has converted the Hagia Sophia into a mosque, thinks of Turkey as the budding core of a neo-Ottoman civilization, and is lighting brush fires on at least four different fronts (Libya, Greece, Syria, now Karabakh). So a significantly greater chance of overt intervention.

This is a highly relevant point. For instance, see that southern salient the Azeris have carved out in the last couple of days, advancing along the plains where the Armenian defensive advantage is weakest? In classical military terms, that’s a highly risky operation, at least without total air superiority. Azeri air power is quite limited, and can be checked by Armenian air defense and its four Su-30SM. But if the Turks join in as well, then its chances of success fall to zero. Verdict: Minor to potentially critical gain to Azerbaijan.

Physiognomy never lies: Abulfaz Elchibey; Nikol Pashinyan.

(8) Finally, relations with Russia – the ultimate key potential arbiter.

The President of Azerbaijan at the outbreak of the “hot phase” of the war was a guy called Abulfaz Elchibey. A former Soviet dissident, like many non-ethnic Russian “dissidents” he became an ultra-nationalist as soon as his tribe gained its independence, with the large-scale assault on Artsakh beginning within days of him coming into office in June 1992. At the same time, he thought it very Big Brained to follow an ultra-svidomist policy towards Russia:

During his one-year rule, Azerbaijani–Russian relations were damaged, with his politics being described in this regard as “Anti-Russian.” He was noted for using an interpreter when speaking to Russian figures, despite being fluent in the Russian language as he was educated in the USSR. Often teasing the Russian leadership, once declaring that among the Russian men who did the greatest services to democracy Tatar President Mintimer Shaimiev, saying in a congratulatory telegram sent in connection with the adoption of a new Tatar constitution that “the heroic Tatar people” have contributed to the “awakening and revival of the Turkic world”.

(Nor did his calls for a Greater Azerbaijan endear him to the mullahs. Of course, not that Iran loves Aliyev either, but at least he got a productive relationship with Israel out of it.)

Anyhow, he was ousted in a coup a year later and replaced by Aliyev (the father of the current one), and spent the rest of his life as an opposition figure until his death from cancer in 2000.

Remind you of anyone? At least Pashinyan, to his credit, is aware enough to realize that continuing to countersignal Russia – see his record of jailing pro-Russian politicians, refusing to integrate air defense systems, and announcing that Russia “cannot be considered a real guarantor of Armenia’s security” (careful what you wish for) – at a time when his country is at war with its sworn enemies and Russia is it’s main hope of averting disaster, isn’t the Biggest Brained idea. To that effect, during this conflict he has made some moves towards rolling back its previous personnel decisions (e.g. dismissing the anti-Russian head of the National Security Service, the 29 year old (?) Argishti Kyaramyan, who had only been appointed this June).

But unfortunately for Armenia, Aliyev is far smarter than either of those Big Brains. He has maintained non-hostile relations with pretty much everyone apart from the guys he actually wants to displace: Armenians. Critically, this includes Russia. Even as Azerbaijan participated in various Euro-Atlantic groupings and voted against Russia on some of its critical issues in the UN, it avoided loud criticisms of Russia and continued to buy arms from it.

(Amusingly, this even included Azeri gutter media and Azeri netizens spreading fake news and doctored photos of Pashinyan meeting up with Soros – the irony being that, while Pashinyan might or might not be a “Sorosoid”, there is at least no photographic evidence that he ever met up with him, whereas Aliyev himself did in fact meet up with Soros at the sidelines of a Davos Summit. Anyhow, when you’re accused of having met Soros and most of “Based Twitter” believes you, while having met Soros yourself and nobody batting an eye about it apart from Armenian Twitter wailing about the hypocrisy of it all… well.)

Verdict (on Russia relations): Potentially major gain to Azerbaijan.

Out of these eight factors that will determine Karabakh War II, Armenia has grown stronger only in one of them, while Azerbaijan improved its position on four. So I wouldn’t bet on the Armenians reversing their territorial losses, as they started doing in earnest around April 1993. Probably best case scenario is a proper ceasefire after the capture of Fuzuli (though why would Azeris stop, short of UN sanctions pressure?), or a stabilization of the frontlines leading to Azeri war weariness and Aliyev getting out while it’s still lower than the popularity boost from the current victories. Worst case scenario, which unfortunately can’t be completely excluded, is the complete conquest of Artsakh and the ensuing ethnic cleansing of Armenians from that region, following what happened in Nakhichevan a century ago.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. CM says:

    And what is Russia’s position on Azerbaijan using Syrian jihadists from Idlib (which Russia has been bombing), and Azerbaijan potentially becoming a Turkish client-state? Is Azerbaijan not alienating Russia, and potentially Iran?

    • Replies: @128
  3. Very thoughtful analysis. To be blunt, I hope the worst case scenario comes true. This isn’t because of any animus I have towards Armenians but rather it would bring a finality to the situation and further undermine all the pieties that buttress liberal hegemony. Watching the Armenians get ethnically cleansed a second time will further disenchant everyone.

    Are there any first hand accounts inside the conflict zone by third party observers? There is actually a Chinese man in Yerevan of all places stuck there because of flight cancellations with a newborn infant and his Armenian wife on Chinese Tiktok uploading videos, but it’s all slice of life stuff and no real analysis. Did mention that his brother in law’s family had evacuated out of the conflict zone and the empty streets.

    • Troll: LG
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    , @Chuck
    , @LG
  4. This isn’t because of any animus I have towards Armenians but rather it would bring a finality to the situation and further undermine all the pieties that buttress liberal hegemony.

    Why is Armenian hold over Nagorno-Karabach is now considered as some cornerstone of “liberal hegemony” in Chinese imagination? Since when support of Christans over Muslims have become trademark of such hegemony when that “liberal hegemony” was constantly supporting Muslim side (Bosniaks/Kosovars) in Yugoslavian conflicts against Christian Serbs?

    Or there is something else in mind when talking about “all the pieties that buttress liberal hegemony”?

  5. TheIdiot says:

    Looks like this analysis is a bit too late
    The war is as good as over: see the actual MAP @ 3:05:

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  6. 128 says:
    @sudden death

    Russians love shawarma.

    • Replies: @4Dchessmaster
  7. It’s totally irrelevant whether Pahinian met Soros. If not, it only means that Pahinian is not important enough for Soros to bother meeting him in person. Fact is, he placed a lot of anti-Russian sorosoids in positions of authority and blocked Russian TV broadcasting in his Bantustan. Looks like he understands that he lost the only defense his Bantustan had, Russia. Too late. He is playing loser’s game now, asking whether NATO authorized the use of Turkish weapons, including drones (where many parts are produced in other NATO countries) against Armenia. By the time he gets an answer, Azeris would take the whole of Karabakh. Subsequent inevitable brutal ethnic cleansing would draw a reaction from the Empire and its vassals: lots of stink and no action. Welcome to the “free” world!

    • Agree: Felix Keverich
    • LOL: El Dato
    • Replies: @LG
  8. Anon999 says:

    You haven’t touched on the more important point that the Azeris have completely shifted their loyalties to the Turks, to the point where they have completely ceded control of their still-incompetant military to the Turks and violated a Russian and French brokered ceasefire. Its the Turkish drone operators that are inflicting significant damage on the Armenians, not the Azeri infantry.

    If the Armenians are defeated, 5-10 years down the line the Russians are going to find that they are sitting on a huge smelly kebab stretching all the way from the Aegean to the other side of the Caspian. And lets not forget their co-religionists in Southern Russia/Dagestan. But I’m confident the real Russian military strategists are seeing beyond keyboard Russian nationalists’ obsession with Pashinyan and at the bigger picture.

    Aliyev is not very smart, because he is the fall guy in this war. Although Azerbaijan is roughly equivalent to North Korea in terms of press freedom and repression of dissent, surely the death of thousands of soldiers and billions in military equipment will have consequences internally. He’s even foolishly announced the capture of villages that haven’t even been captured. If the Azeris get pushed back, he’s a dead man.

    The smart one is his big brother Erdogan who will egg him on and win either way.

    • Replies: @128
    , @Mikhail
    , @Blade
  9. 128 says:
    @CM

    How much is the credited amount to Putin’s bank balance?

  10. 128 says:
    @Anon999

    But Russians like eating kebab…………………….. 🙁 And the Sultan is willing to give them 50% discounts in bulk on Angus beef kebabs.

  11. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Anon999

    Aliyev is not very smart, because he is the fall guy in this war. Although Azerbaijan is roughly equivalent to North Korea in terms of press freedom and repression of dissent, surely the death of thousands of soldiers and billions in military equipment will have consequences internally.

    Not even close to the DPRK. A matter of comparing bad and worse.

  12. Anon999 says:

    They have also been inculcated with anti-Armenian propaganda over the past generation, as opposed to early 1990s era Azeris who grew up on Soviet “friendship of peoples” propaganda (though it never percolated deep in the Caucasus). I think the average young Azeri will be more committed than his counterpart a generation ago.

    They have been so successful in instilling anti-Armenian sentiment that Azeris regularly behead captured/injured Christian Armenian soldiers. They even post pictures of beheadings online. Not to mention their use of cluster bombs on civilian areas.
    It seems to have made them more committed to savagery, but its questionable if it leads to military competence given how little they achieved during their blitzkreig.

    For the Russian keyboard nationalists that think this is an unimportant war and that Russia should stay out of – if NK is taken, then in a couple years Armenia proper will be next. And you’ll miss the Armenians when these lovely Turks/Azeris are at your door.

    • Agree: LG
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  13. @Anon999

    And you’ll miss the Armenians…

    LMAO. Not likely!

    Frankly, my sole concern about this conflict is that [more] Armenian scum will arrive to Russia as “refugees”. There is already more Armenians in Russia, than in their supposed homeland.

    • Troll: LG
    • Replies: @Anon999
    , @Dmitry
  14. Anon999 says:
    @Felix Keverich

    I’m sure you’ll enjoy the beheading professionals as your new neighbors.

  15. Dmitry says:

    air power is quite limited, and can be checked by Armenian air defense and

    Armenia’s air defense in the area seems to have been significantly suppressed by Azerbaijan in the early stages – and now including destruction of S-300 complex inside Armenia itself.

    Here was apparent incompetence of the people operating them.

    For example, Pashinyan (Prime Minister of Armenia) was boasting about how they had shot down “Azerbaijani planes”.

    Armenia had shot down pilotless agricultural bi-planes that Azerbaijan had converted into decoys. The purpose of decoys is to reveal positions of the enemies’ radar and air-defense. Azerbaijan flies them over Armenian territory, to trick Armenia to shoot them, and reveal the position of their air-defense.

    If Armenia didn’t shoot these, then they could cause diplomatic problems for Azerbaijan, as they would fly into neighbouring countries. These bi-planes are just sent up to fly in a straight direction until they use up all fuel. So Armenia is not just falling into a trap, but also helping Azerbaijan to avoid diplomatic problems.

    Apparently NATO exercises, had not occurred yet, that could teach Armenia about these decoys, and they were boasting about shooting down the An-2s, when they were falling into SEAD trap (of revealing the position of the defenses by shooting down decoys).

    So Armenia’s YouTube was boasting about falling into the SEAD trap of targeting the decoys. There was 7 examples where Armenia has posted about shooting down the An-2 decoys.

    • Replies: @Anon999
    , @Avery
  16. Azerbaijan has kept warm or neutral relations towards Russia only because of the unsolved status of Artsakh. Its membership in GUAM, its warm relations and close cooperation with Turkey and Israel, show where its heart truly lies. When Azerbaijan will get Artsakh, then, only then, it can become openly and unabashedly anti-Russian like Georgia and Ukraine. Armenians made a mistake with Pashinyan, out of frustration with corruption and economic situation, but their nation is long term loyal ally and friend of Russia, such momentarily relapses should be forgiven, but not forgotten. Actually such short term mistakes can be beneficial in the long run. It will leave an imprint in the political memory of the Armenian nation.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    , @Yevardian
  17. Anon999 says:
    @Dmitry

    If Armenia didn’t shoot these, then they could cause diplomatic problems for Azerbaijan, as they would fly into neighbouring countries. These bi-planes are just sent up to fly in a straight direction until they use up all fuel. So Armenia is not just falling into a trap, but also helping Azerbaijan to avoid diplomatic problems.

    Many have already flown into neighboring countries, Georgia and if I’m not mistaken Iran and Dagestan.

    For example, Pashinyan (Prime Minister of Armenia) was boasting about how they had shot down “Azerbaijani planes”.

    The Armenians did shoot down an Azeri SU25

  18. Karlin, stop shilling for Azerbaijan. You’re not a Jew and won’t ever even be a shabbos-goy.

  19. Dmitry says:
    @Felix Keverich

    already more Armenians in Russia, than in their supposed homeland.

    This war won’t have a significant effect. Armenian citizens’ immigration to Russia was already increasing in recent years – so they are now the second most common nationality applying for Russian citizenship.

    This is much more caused by choice of Putin in the last decade, who has further increased the open borders structure, so Armenians do not even need to register for work permits since several years ago, and can effortlessly build up enough time living in Russia (including to apply for the Russian citizenship).

    But Armenians don’t just go to Russia. From the Armenian protests, it seems there are Armenians dispersed all over the world.

    An irony of Armenians protesting and blocking roads in distant countries, is that the real threat for Armenia is not Azerbaijan or Turkey, but their own mass emigration to those distant countries, that results in the continuing collapse of country’s young population, and is therefore the main constraint to its economic viability.

    Over 70% of Armenians don’t live in Armenia. So they are protesting about how the countries they emigrated to don’t rescue Armenia in its controversial border disputes, without realizing that the reason their country is economically and military weak is primarily because they themselves are emigrating from it and do not live there.


    I feel some irony looking at Armenians protesting in places like Paris, without noticing it is they themselves which have created demographic collapse in Armenia by refusing to live in their homeland. Of course, it’s normal that they will prefer to live in developed countries (people always go where there are higher incomes), but then – the argument of the protesters itself is a little undermined by their own priorities.

    Somehow, even in Kishinev in Moldova, nowadays, there has developed both an Azeri and Armenian diaspora, which seem to think that public opinion of Moldovans will be somehow relevant to their border dispute.

    At the same time, their refusal to live in Armenia, means that Armenia has a falling proportion of workers, and is increasingly outnumbered by neighbours. https://i.imgur.com/Z57lfDH.jpg

    • Replies: @Anon999
    , @Avery
    , @CM
    , @Yevardian
  20. Avery says:
    @Dmitry

    { and now including destruction of S-300 complex inside Armenia itself.}

    And your proof is ?

    {Armenia had shot down pilotless agricultural bi-planes that Azerbaijan had converted into decoys}

    Again, shows us your proof/sources of this claim, if you would.

    {These bi-planes are just sent up to fly in a straight direction until they use up all fuel. So Armenia is not just falling into a trap, but also helping Azerbaijan to avoid diplomatic problems.}

    Yes of course.
    Armenians are so dumb, that they can’t distinguish a bi-plane from a UAV/drone or fighter jet.

    [Armenian Military Reveals Downed Israel-Built Azerbaijani Drones]
    https://www.defenseworld.net/news/27485/Armenian_Military_Reveals_Downed_Israel_Built_Azerbaijani_Drones

    And…..

    [Armenia Army downs $30 million Elbit Hermes 900 belonging to Azerbaijan Forces]
    (Jul 14,2020)

    That flying thingee in the video sure looks like a biplane, doesn’t it?
    Sure don’t look like a Hermes 900 UAV

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Jazman
  21. Dmitry says:
    @Avery

    That claim made by Armenia in June about shooting down that drone, looks like it was a false claim, considering the video they uploaded.

    It reminds us of certain claims of Armenia made this month, like trying to involve in Russia by claiming that Turkish F-16 has shot down their planes.

    That looks like a small business jet plane in the video, it does not look like the expensive (propeller powered) UAV in the picture – look at the angle of wings. It looks like a typical small business jet that is flying over the area.

    Also

    To begin with, the silhouette of the aircraft shown in the video is most likely a twin-engine, narrow-body passenger jet, not a UAS. The silhouette is definitely not the Hermes-900 Armenia claims to have shot down, since it lacks distinctive elements, such as a slender fuselage, large V tail, and a nose bulge, containing the drones’ SATCOM terminal.

    Strategic UAS like Hermes 900 fly on reconnaissance missions as far as possible from the front line, in what is known as ‘standoff range’, out of the range of air defenses. Although Armenia possesses significant surface-to-air missiles such as the S-300, engagement by such assets would have been taken at a great distance from the launch site, which wouldn’t make such a visual record possible. An intercept by a closer range weapon, such as the new Armenian TorM2MK (effective 15 km would be visual, but unlikely as a Hermes 900 flying a stand-off mission would not fly into Thor’s kill zone.)

    The third problem in the video is the explosion. The video shows a perfect circle done with a simple visual effect. A more convincing view would a blurred image of a terminal effect of a warhead, followed by the remains of the target descending to the ground (the Hermes typically flies above 15,000 ft, which provides plenty of opportunities to show a drone, its wings and other parts descending down in flames.)

    https://defense-update.com/20200723_fake-or-true.html

    • Replies: @Avery
  22. Anon999 says:
    @Dmitry

    The primary reason Armenians emigrated is because of the corruption of the previous Russia-friendly politicians. It leaves no choice but for bright kids with college degrees to emigrate.

    After Pashinyan, the number of re-patriates back to Armenia increased significantly.

  23. Avery says:
    @Dmitry

    The picture in the video is so grainy that it is impossible to tell if is a Hermes 900 or isn’t.
    Therefore, the defense-update’s so-called “analysis” has no foundation.

    And since you failed to provide sources/proof that Armenians supposedly have been shooting down bi-planes instead of drones, I will take that as proof that you were lying or making things up.
    Same goes for your claim that an s-300 complex was supposedly destroyed by Azerbaijan inside Armenia.

  24. Avery says:
    @Dmitry

    {Armenia in its controversial border disputes, without realizing that the reason their country is economically and military weak}

    Compared to what?

    Armenia’s monthly average is greater than Azerbaijan.

    Considering that Azerbaijan gets $10s of billions of income from its oil and gas sales, its people should be swimming in cash. Armenia definitely has problems, but Azerbaijan is far worse.
    It is run by the Aliyev crime family who wastes $ billions annually on weapons purchases. What is not wasted, is skimmed off the top by the Aliyevs, and sent to offshore accounts.

    Azerbaijan’s oil is running out. When it does, their entire population will migrate to Russia to ward off starvation. There are about 3 million Azerbaijan citizens in RF today.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
  25. Juri says:

    The problem with those high tech gadgets is that they are very expensive and because of that, supply of high tech is normally limited.

    Let`s wait few weeks when both sides running out their most advanced whatever and when the good old school war starts then we see, who is really winning.

  26. CM says:
    @Dmitry

    The large Armenian community in France mostly didn’t emigrate from Armenia. They’re descendants of genocide survivors from what’s now Turkey and Syria that settled in France in the 1920s. Their families never lived in the area that now comprises Armenia.

  27. Given that this is all about undercutting Nordstream 2 and cutting Russia out of supplying energy products to Western Europe in general and Germany in specific, shouldn’t someone in Europe ask if it might actually be more dangerous to make Western Europe and Germany more reliant on energy products that flow through Turkey? You may believe Erdogan wants EU membership, but I’d posit he’s playing a bigger game: Having pre-positioned masses of “troops” in Germany, all he needs to do is cut off energy product and demand surrender. Uncle Sam has already demonstrated it cannot keep its “puppet” under control. This might explain why France is willing to send it’s navy into the fray with Cyprus and Greece, though it could also be to ensure Total gets a piece of the action.

    Bottom line is that anything coming out of this conflict should not be used as a reason to torpedo Nordstream 2, though it could provide a further diversifying source of energy product to Western Europe.

  28. I could hardly imagine anything more suicidal then anti-Russianism in Armenia
    This isn’t a matter of getting what you like, it’s a matter of survival

    Reminds me of Serb retards who think we’re in any position to make demands from the US/EU or worse, fight and win a war with NATO

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  29. @AltanBakshi

    What will Aliev gain by becoming openly and unabashedly anti-Russian? Azeri pipelines pass in the range of Russian artillery. Embracing the West means embracing Western NGOs, which in due course will try to engineer color revolution in Azerbaijan.

    • Agree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Denis
  30. China should support Armenia. Even though the South Caucus is the biggest backwater in Eurasia in Chinese foreign policy and very little has been invested in any Belt and Road projects or corridor through the region, there are still two good reasons for taking an interest and Armenia’s side in the conflict.

    Russia’s sphere
    What’s good for Russia is good for China. That should be the general mentality of alliance partners.

    Pan-Turkism
    In 2014-15 Turkey enabled Uighur terrorism in China by supplying thousands of fake Turkish passports to ex-filtrate Uighurs. It was part of a plan to recruit fighters in Syria. Currently, one of the four main jihadist groups in Idlib is Uighur. The Kunming train station attack in 2014 that killed dozens was done by Uighurs who may have wanted to but were stymied in following the Turkish directed flow to Southeast Asia. A Turkish bomber killed several Chinese tourists in an attack in 2015 in Bangkok in retaliation. Turkey is a clear and present danger to China. If Turkey succeeds against Armenia it will fire up Turkish visions of pan-Turkic grandeur and prove the model of dropping in jihadists from Syria. Xinjiang could one day be a destination.

    • Agree: LG
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  31. LOL at all these Armenoids in the comments (and walking broken clock “anonymous coward”) attaqing me as a pro-Azeri shill for… not being a total pro-Armenian shill in an analytical article.

    When my actual positions are well known: https://www.unz.com/akarlin/russias-options-in-artsakh-war/

    But this behavior and amazing chutzpah does help explain why many Russians do feel about Armenia and Caucasoids in general, what Bismarck felt about Pomeranian grenadiers and the Balkans.

  32. @Anatoly Karlin

    I’ve already replied above; wittingly or unwittingly, you’re translating Jewish bullshit (a.k.a. chutzpah) here in the article. Shame on you. I’ll assume you’re acting in good faith, so please vet your sources better. The Internet is owned by ((the usual suspects)), with the usual results.

    • Replies: @128
  33. @Korenchkin

    Reminds me of Serb retards who think we’re in any position to make demands from the US/EU or worse, fight and win a war with NATO

    The comparison is somewhat off.

    The problem is that Serbia’s geo-political circumstances have more in common with Azerbaijan than with Armenia.

    The difference is that Russia treats Azerbaijan far more fairly and respectfully than USA/EU/NATO treats Serbs. Russia also artificially props up Armenia to a far lesser degree than USA/EU/NATO relentlessly and pathologically support Albanians and Bosniaks in the Balkans. Russia just lets Armenians and Azeris have as close to a “fair fight” over Karabakh as possible, while being open to either nation owning it or whatever compromise they may agree to. Bosnia and Herzegovina and “Republic” of Kosovo literally can’t exist at all without US military occupation (no other NATO member besides potentially Turkey can seriously project military force in the Balkans) and the threat of overwhelming force being used against Serbs.

    An important point is that although Serbs can’t fight and win a war against NATO, in the 1990’s Serbs managed to not lose decisively (hence why there is still struggle over the status of Kosovo and Republika Srpska) which is important because that means things still aren’t over.

    Also, Turkey and Azerbaijan’s “two states, one nation” attitude is somewhat similar to the nature of the relationship between Russia and Serbia (at least as it should be ideally), except that Turkey and Azerbaijan’s is far stronger and far more realistic for obvious reasons (very close distance, deeper ties, etc).

    As for the EU, the only reason it matters is because it could potentially impose seriously damaging sanctions, since unfortunately, most of Serbia’s trade and diaspora is geared in that direction. Vucic has done good work in gearing Serbia’s trade as much as possible to China, Turkey, and Russia (trade with Hungary being in top 5 of Serbia’s imports/exports matters as it’s a less hostile and significant neighboring EU state) but there are limits to how much that is possible due to geography.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  34. @china-russia-all-the-way

    good reasons for taking an interest and Armenia’s side in the conflict.

    You remind me of the Duke I once knew.

    You would probably be less amused if you knew which injustices I had in mind Turk. My enmities are a little more primal and ancient than the mere opium wars which were a farce. I am a Han racialist and not a Chinese nationalist. Oh I have no love for the perfidious Albion and am smirking at the prospect at her being annihilated by self inflicted barbarian hordes. It’s just that given the option I’d rather have the road from Xian to Constantinople lined with gibbets filled with your kinsmen, the stinking degenerate steppe nomad.

  35. @Anatoly Karlin

    It was easier to support the Armenians when they weren’t poasting on the Review. Charm-free chutpatz.

  36. Yevardian says:
    @AltanBakshi

    Of course, it’s blindingly obvious this is exactly what will happen, I’m getting really tired of these retarded pseudo-vatnik posts, because of course Russia and Turkey have always been the warmest of neighbours. Not to mention the disaster this will have on the Armenian economy isn’t exactly going to curb further youth emigration to Russia… then there’s also Russia’s relations with Iran (a far more reliable partner than Turkey) to consider.

  37. 128 says:
    @anonymous coward

    Someone who works in the US as a research scientist for money and a standard of living, when he could have done the patriotic thing and stayed in Russia, should be the last person on this Earth to criticize Armenians for going elsewhere for money and a higher standard of living. Is it not the height of chutzpah to argue for Crimean annexation on the basis of self-determination while arguing against NK’s right of self-determination in the same sentence?

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  38. 128 says:

    And some citizen of the world/rootless cosmopolitan who spends half his time outside Russia criticizing Armenians for seeking work elsewhere, and also slandering them for leaving Armenia like rats deserting a ship when they are actually exiles of genocide, without actually bothering to verify facts when they are just an internet search away.

  39. Yevardian says:
    @Dmitry

    The vast majority of Armenians have lived outside of the Caucasus for hundreds of years. Also a highly ironic criticism coming from a Jew.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  40. Armenian diaspora patriotism is certainly still a thing, Kardashian aside, the Armenian community have already contributed more than $100 million to Armenia

    [MORE]

    Armenian citizen Dan Bilzerian wanted in Azerbaijan over weapons violations

    Towards the end of August, poker player and “King of Instagram,” Dan Bilzerian became an Armenian citizen, along with his brother, Adam. Of Armenia descent, and given his preference for being out of the ordinary, it shouldn’t be too surprising that he would not only seek an Armenian passport and enlist in the Armenia Armed Forces. What came next shouldn’t be too surprising, either. Bilzerian is wanted by the police in Azerbaijan for weapons violations.

    It only took a week as an Armenian citizen for Bilzerian to be wanted by the copsSubsequent to his being sworn in as a citizen in Armenia, Bilzerian supposedly took off to neighboring Azerbaijan for a little celebration. As he’s prone to do, he published his antics on social media and was seen firing a variety weapons and driving armored vehicles. He posted the photos with a title of “First day as Armenian citizen,” but the activity reportedly actually took place in Nagorno-Karabakh, a disputed area between the two countries that is recognized internationally as belonging to Azerbaijan.

    Thanks to his antics, the Prosecutor General’s Office of the Republic of Azerbaijan is seeking an Interpol arrest warrant and has accused Bilzerian of “illegally acquiring grenades, a gun and other firearms and demonstratively opening fire” within the boundaries of the disputed region.

    In normal diplomatic fashion, Bilzerian responded to the allegations, saying, “If these inbred goat fucking Azerbaijani officials get Interpol to arrest me, make sure to smoke my weed.” Perhaps, instead of throwing models off of rooftops, he should have allocated that time to reading, “How To Win Friends and Influence People.”

    The Consulate General of Armenia in the U.S. is working with Interpol and trying to convince them to dismiss the Azerbaijani case.

  41. Avery says:

    There are many reasons RoA’s population emigrates to Russia or the West: blaming previous administrations for this or that serves no purpose. Previous admins did a lot of things right: the high tech industries which produce #2 income for RoA, for example, were pushed by Kocharyan and Sargsyan admins. Pashinyan has done some things right, and some things not so.

    Right now every Armenian needs to unite to defeat this latest attempt by nomad Turks from Uyguristan to wipe out indigenous Armenians from their homelands.

    There are also many reasons people emigrate from former USSR to the West.
    The Baltic republics, arguably well run countries free from corruption, and not facing any threats of war or invasion by their genocidal neighbors, are rapidly depopulating. You know why? Because their young people want better job opportunities in wealthier EU states (e.g. Germany).

    The lure of the wealthy, advanced West is irresistible.

    Russians too: many would emigrate to the West if they could.
    [Record Number of Russians Want to Emigrate – Gallup]
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/04/record-number-of-russians-want-to-emigrate-gallup-a65092

    “A record one-fifth of Russians would like to leave the country if they could, a threefold increase from five years ago, the Gallup pollster said Thursday.” (as of 2019)

    [More Than Half Of Young Russians Would Like To Emigrate, Survey Finds] (2019)
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesrodgerseurope/2019/12/01/more-than-half-of-young-russians-would-like-to-emigrate-survey-finds/#378b210c538e

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  42. @sudden death

    It’s not, whether the Armenians slaughter the Azeries or vice versa is irrelevant to me, just so long as there is an ethnic bloodbath. Each added atrocity is simply another hole in the human rights mythology and the fact that the Armenian diaspora is prominent is an added benefit. I have no love for the Turks, but I don’t have much sympathy for the Armenians either. Per Karlin it is likely they are going to lose, if they were going to win, I would hope they ethnically cleanse that Azeri pocket and merge NK with Armenia altogether entirely as one continuous whole. It just doesn’t seem realistic at this point while the Azeri plan is much more probable.

    The Armenians wanted to play both sides of Russia and the US off each other but found out that in an emergency, having one foot in each camp is unstable footing. That fault is on them and to castigate Russia for sitting it out is quite frankly insulting. Should ask fat Pompeo and Trump for aid.

    • Replies: @sudden death
    , @Meena
  43. Yevardian says:
    @Avery

    The Baltic republics, arguably well run countries free from corruption, and not facing any threats of war or invasion by their genocidal neighbors, are rapidly depopulating. You know why? Because their young people want better job opportunities in wealthier EU states

    The Baltics are also run by the most extreme neoliberal self-cannabilising regimes of anywhere in Europe.

  44. @Avery

    No chance that is true for Krasnodar – it is much higher. Same thing for Stavropol, although particularly Krasnodar as it is one of our better performing regions, developing economically very well. Average salary ( officially) in Russia is about 47000 Roubles per month, and Krasnodar is definitely above average. Also need to look at which countries are giving gross salary and which are doing net (i.e after tax , pension contribution etc)

    But as you are hinting at, in view of Gruzia blocking rail cargo from Armenia to Russia, and the long term disputes with relatively rich neighbours Turkey and Azerbaijan eliminating huge, billion dollar amounts each year of trade, investment and tourism in Armenia, not having great reserves of natural resources, or after end of USSR have anywhere the near the levels of developed, high-skilled industries as Ukraine in 1991 ( or being a prostitute supported by the west like Banderastan, of who Armenia is significantly richer than anyway)….then Armenia’s economic development should be viewed as, if not a success, then respectable.

  45. @Duke of Qin

    Thanx for explanation, now it’s more clear to me, but it is rather dubious that the very fact of ethnic genocides is somehow weakening the idea of “human rights” or the need/call to enforce it. Do not see how Serbian cleansing efforts in Srebrenica or Tutsi/Hutu wide scale quick massacre made it less relevant, on the contrary it served as impetus to establish more institutionalised supranational justicial bodies like International Criminal Court.

    Of course, any laws or rights, no matter international or domestic, can be effectivelly enforced only when there is enough brute force to back it, but unless I’m really mistaken, “human rights” doctrine is not disputing this objective fact of life.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  46. @sudden death

    Serbian cleansing efforts in Srebrenica

    Is this why more Bosniaks live in Srebrenica than Serbs according to the 2013 population census?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica#Ethnic_composition

    Bosniaks : 7,248 (54,05%)

    Serbs : 6,028 (44,95%)

    Otherwise, I’ll just quote the Serb mayor of Srebrenica, Mladen Grujicic, responding to the political propaganda campaign of “Srebrenica Genocide”:

    “It is an imposed story and it will fall sometime. No Serb and most Bosniaks living here believe in the Hague farce. Bosniaks who say that there was no genocide are even declared insane.”

    • Replies: @sudden death
  47. Dmitry says:
    @Yevardian

    Armenians are immigrating into Russia from Armenia with increasing numbers in recent decades. In favour of this community’s consistency, few of these recent Armenians in Russia, seem to be waving the flag in the streets.

    But if other Armenians emigrated from the Caucasus centuries ago, now live in white peoples’ countries? It’s not less ironic for the Armenian nationalist protesters in those countries – these nationalist protesters have voted with their feet in support of the main depletor of the homeland’s power: the fact Armenians do not live in Armenia, which suffers primarily not from its border conflicts, but from the depopulation of its workers.

    I’m not saying Armenians should be nationalists and live in Armenia (I wouldn’t if I was Armenian), but that these diaspora nationalist protesters undermine their nationalist cause in the most ironic way. The main cause of Armenia’s current problems, is lack of Armenians living in Armenia, and yet these people seem to not notice the irony of waving the depopulating homeland’s flag in distant countries.

    Also a highly ironic criticism coming from a Jew.

    I’m Jewish by a grandfather’s mother. So – imagining I was a nationalist who is motivated by some kind of loyalty to ancestors – if I lived in Israel, it would be nationally consistent for the blood of one greatgrandparent and ironic and sunburning for the blood of the others.

    But there is net immigration flow of Jews into Israel for the last 150 years, despite Jews being a mostly artificially constructed nationality derived from a secularizing religious separatism (unlike Armenians which are a real nationality); nationalist Jews have been mass repatriating to Israel, which what nationalist Armenians should be following the example of. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah

  48. 128 says:

    Armenia has a population density of 107/sq kilometre, about the same as that of France, considering its terrain which is mostly mountains, I will not call it underpopulated at all. Azerbaijan has a higher population density but has a higher ratio of plains and lowlands to population size. And countries with better economies can support a larger population and a larger number of immigrants, poorer countries have to export people in order to earn remittances, like look at India or Mexico.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  49. 128 says:

    Richer countries (relative to their neighbors) will attract immigrants due to having more economic opportunities than their poorer neighbors. Possible that even with a falling population Armenia is already near its carrying capacity with respect to its amount of fertile and habitable land, plus the capacity of its economy to accommodate an increase in population. Someone raised the issue here had if Russia had free movement or a Schengen arrangement between it and the EU it would also see a massive emigration of its work force and large scale brain drain, as its talented people go abroad to seek better economic opportunities, like some posters here.

  50. 128 says:

    Also Armenia is much smaller than it was in the year 1900, which accounts for its diaspora.

  51. Dmitry says:
    @128

    In relation to the current border dispute of Armenia with Azerbaijan – likely more than oil, the growing population divide is the main cause of the changing balance of power between the two parties. (Azerbaijan’s “total fertility rate” has been usually around 0,1-0,3 higher than Armenia in the postsoviet era, and is now the same).

    poorer countries have to export people in order to earn remittances, like look at India or Mexico.

    Immigrants on average always try to flow from the poorer countries to richer countries.

    With open borders formalized (and made even more open in the last decade) between Armenia and the Russian Federation – the continuation of immigration flow from Armenia to Russia has been inevitable (and the leadership in both countries apparently not concerned).

    My point is not to say that there is anything surprising or unique about Armenian’s emigration, but that there is an irony of Armenian nationalist-motivated protesters, showing so passionately their patriotism in blocking roads in such distant countries, while living thousands of kilometres from the demographically depleting country they claim to support. The fact Armenians are not living in Armenia (whatever the cause and rationality of doing this), is part of the main reason we saw increasing power imbalance that country has with the rival country they have border wars with.

  52. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    One of the possible explanations could obviously be that Serbs at that time just were not good enough at genociding properly, IIRC, they just rounded up mainly military aged men there and shot them in ditches.

    As far as modern genocides go, the golden standard arguably was set up by Einsatzgruppen in 1941 when in many towns ALL Jewish population, no matter the sexes and ages – from newborns to grannies, were rounded up and shot in ditches.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  53. Jazman says:
    @Avery

    Turks using AN-2 to expose AD positions they lost already more then 30 AN-2

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  54. SIMP simp says:

    For now Azeris have been successful only in the southern plateau of NK but if they can continue their successes there they could be in position to harass from both south NK and Nakhchivan the supply route connecting Armenia proper and Iran, route which is Armenia’s lifeline.

  55. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    If nothing else, this war shows our recent investments into drone technology were wise

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  56. @sudden death

    Look up the Croatian Operation Storm for the more likely scenario of Artsakh falling into Azeri hands, though the Armenians there have far more support and are far more united then Krajina Serbs were

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
  57. joniel says:

    If Turkey says they want Jerusalem, and Israel continues to sell Turkey weapons for this war, then I would agree that Turks deserve to have Jerusalem.

  58. @joniel

    There was this joke in the USSR during 1967 Arab-Israeli war.

    At the front both sides are shooting. Then, all of a sudden, shooting from the Arab trenches stops. Israeli soldier shouts: “hey, Mustapha, why did you stop shooting?” “I ran out of ammo”. “I can sell you some”.

  59. @joniel

    I would certainly support an accomodation with Turkey where they get Jerusalem and we get Tsargrad.

    • Agree: Not Raul
    • Replies: @Barr
    , @Blade
  60. Barr says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Yes that can be arranged provided Crimean Tartars could return and claim their stolen lands .

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Znzn
  61. Dmitry says:
    @joniel

    Turkey already has almost a moral or populist control in East Jerusalem.

    If Turkey would invade it – they would probably civilize the area, or at worst there is no so much for them to decivilize.

  62. Meena says:
    @Duke of Qin

    As World War I threatened and the Ottoman Army mobilized, Armenians who should have served their country instead took the side of the Russians. The Ottoman Army reported: “From Armenians with conscription obligations those in towns and villages East of the Hopa-Erzurum-Hinis-Van line did not comply with the call to enlist but have proceeded East to the border to join the organization in Russia.” The effect of this is obvious: If the young Armenian males of the “zone of desertion” had served in the Army, they would have provided more than 50,000 troops. If they had served, there might never have been a Sarikamish defeat.

    The Armenians from Hopa to Erzurum to Hinis to Van were not the only Armenians who did not serve. The 10s of thousands of Armenians of Sivas who formed chette bands did not serve. The rebels in Zeytun and elsewhere in Cilicia did not serve. The Armenians who fled to the Greek islands or to Egypt or Cyprus did not serve. More precisely, many of these Armenian young men did serve, but they served in the armies of the Ottomans’ enemies. They did not protect their homeland, they attacked it.

    “In Eastern Anatolia, Armenians formed bands to fight a guerilla war against their government. Others fled only to return with the Russian Army, serving as scouts and advance units for the Russian invaders. It was those who stayed behind who were the greatest danger to the Ottoman war effort and the greatest danger to the lives of the Muslims of Eastern Anatolia.

    It has often been alleged by Armenian nationalists that the Ottoman order to deport Armenians was not caused by Armenian rebellion. As evidence, they note the fact that the law of deportation was published in May of 1915, at approximately the same time that the Armenians seized the City of Van. According to this logic, the Ottomans must have planned the deportation some time before that date, so the rebellion could not have been the cause of the deportations. It is true that the Ottomans began to consider the possibility of deportation a few months before May, 1915. What is not true is that May, 1915 was the start of the Armenian rebellion. It had started long before.

    http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~dwilson/Armenia/justin.html

    Until Armenians come clean of the roles they played in destruction of Ottoman empire and until they admit of their perfidy , it is impossible to accept the BBC/Guardian slants or as take even superficially positions of France America or Canadian or Armenia which are colored by the alleged victimhood of 1915 .

    • Agree: A.R.
    • Disagree: 22pp22, Colin Wright
    • LOL: Yevardian
    • Troll: Belarusian Dude
    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  63. Dmitry says:
    @Jazman

    Azerbaijan had prepared more than 50 An-2 decoys at the start of this war. It seemed like someone didn’t explain to Armenian air-defense (or leadership) that shooting them down was a trap, and they uploaded 7 videos of them shooting them down.

    Here they were seen in Yevlax airport

    Another controversy – when Azerbaijan was allegedly hitting Armenia’s S-300 complex with rocket artillery, after they apparently discovered its positions: whether this was inside Armenia’s official border.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  64. @Meena

    Without a doubt the stupidest post on this website ever.

    • Agree: 22pp22
    • Replies: @Meena
    , @Wielgus
  65. Aedib says:

    Seizing a large part of the Artsakh-Iranian border with sausage-like gains to seal the border with Iran (without air dominance) is a very risky scenario for Azerbayan. Remember how Ukrainian forces advanced along the border between the Donbas and Russia just to be later cut in minor sausages that were wiped out from both Donbas and Russia. Yeap, Iran may not intervene to help Armenia but it can seal the border in case Armenia cut the sausage and make the western sausage boil in a cauldron.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  66. @Barr

    Yes that can be arranged provided Crimean Tartars could return and claim their stolen lands .

    Why not the people they stole the lands from? Crimea was settled for millennia before militant nomads Turks (Crimean Tatars) conquered it fairly late.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    , @Blade
  67. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Azerbaijan using drones for the suppression of various Armenian air defense components.

  68. Chuck says:
    @Duke of Qin

    Nope. “Liberal” hegemony is really Jewish hegemony. It has nothing to do with facts on the ground. Like Christianity, it’s a psychological weapon.

  69. Meena says:
    @Agathoklis

    Liars will keep on lying –
    whether it’s 100 yrs or 30 yrs old , really doesn’t matter to their apologists .

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    , @22pp22
  70. Znzn says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Crimean Tartars are mostly indigenous with some Asian admixture right?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  71. @Znzn

    Crimean Tartars are mostly indigenous with some Asian admixture right?

    They are indigenous, but not in Crimea. Same as Turks, who are indigenous, but not in present-day Turkey.

    Crimea was fairly densely populated in the 1st millennium BC, when the ancestors of Turks and Crimean Tatars did not come down from trees yet.

    • Disagree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Znzn
    , @AP
  72. @Meena

    The Ottoman/Kemalist genocide against Anatolian Christians started way before WWI.

    The Thirty-Year Genocide Turkey’s Destruction of Its Christian Minorities, 1894–1924

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Meena
    , @Meena
    , @KA
  73. Denis says:
    @Felix Keverich

    There are several dictatorships similar to Aliyev’s that are very much within the western sphere, such as Saudi Arabia, so I don’t think colour revolution is really enough of a concern to push all dictators away. As for the Russian military threat, this hasn’t prevented Georgia from becoming very friendly with the west, and I don’t see why it would prevent Azerbaijan.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  74. Znzn says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I mean the admixture of Asians in Tartars is fairly small, so they can be considered largely of native blood.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi, AP
  75. Largely agree with this post. I was for some time drawing a parallels of the Nagorno Karabakh wars to the Chechen wars. A larger, more powerful entity in both cases fails to retake its rebellious provinces due to internal issues outwardly manifesting as corruption, incompetence, low morale, disorganization, poor maintenance, etc. leading to disastrous result. However in both cases the superior party manages to fix its many problems by the time of the second war and reverse its previous humiliation. I’m still skeptical the whole of Artsakh will be retaken but I’m certain approx. 25% will be if not more

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    , @Aedib
  76. @Denis

    I don’t think colour revolution is really enough of a concern to push all dictators away.

    Americans only tolerate dictators, where popular revolution would produce anti-American government. They generally prefer “democratic” form of government in their clients, because it gives them greater control. The list of autocratic leaders, who thought they could partner with US, and got backstabbed is long.

    So Aliev should at least consider it a threat. I’m counting on him having more sense in his head, than the Georgian politicians.

  77. 22pp22 says:
    @Meena

    I hope to God you aren’t typical of Turks. What a truly loathsome individual. Truly the scrapings from the bottom of the barrel of humanity. I hope the Armenians hold the line in this conflict. Nothing could be worse that being ruled by people like you.

    • Replies: @Meena
    , @A.R.
  78. Blade says:
    @Anon999

    This is the problem with small nation nationalists. They think countries like Russia, Turkey, Germany etc. pay much attention to them and that they will get into conflict for their sake. It is 2020, land isn’t as valuable as it was 300 years ago. Russia isn’t going to fight for Armenia and Turkey isn’t going to invade Caucasus. I will however say that it was very foolish of Iranian mullahs to side with Armenia. Once this war is over, what will they do if Turks in Iran start questioning Persian regime’s behavior? After all almost half of Iran is Turkic. It seems like they want another 1000 years of Turkish rule in Iran.

  79. @Belarusian Dude

    Belarusian Dude, what’s your take on Zmagaromaidan? Would you agree that in the long run your country will go the way of the Ukraine?

    • Replies: @Belarusian Dude
  80. Blade says:
    @joniel

    Erdogan was intentionally mistranslated. It was a figurative expression. Like a Christian saying Jerusalem is the capital of Christianity or an Indonesian Muslim saying Meccah is our city. It is his opinion and valid as far as Islam is concerned, educated Turks don’t care for cities in the deserts and some of the uneducated think they care because they have never been to one, not realizing Jerusalem, Meccah or Damascus wouldn’t even compare to many second tier Turkish cities. Aside from that recently French state TV was caught translating his speech completely wrong. Ever since NATO coup failed he is being treated as devil incarnate by the independent and free Western media. While I don’t like him because of his Islamism, I don’t see journalist butchers or terrorist supporters from Gulf or KSA getting much criticism. Wonder why?

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
  81. Blade says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Crimea was populated by Turks before Crimean Khanate; Huns, Bulgars, Pechenegs etc. have all lived in nearby areas. Actually it is true for pretty much all Russia, Russians are relatively newcomers compared to Turks. Haven’t they migrated from Baltic region? I think Russians have more “Turks” among them than they realize. Of course I am talking of ancestries and blood connections.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Gerard.Gerard
  82. Blade says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Lol. All of Israel + Arabian peninsula wouldn’t worth trading for one neighborhood of Istanbul. Thanks to Greek culture destroying once strong Roman character, we have this queen of cities, and thanks to Greeks’ attempt to take back Istanbul we wised up kicked them out. So there is no negative Greek influence that could cause us to lose it until eternity. Hopefully it will be even prettier and greater in the future. But you are always welcome as a tourist, you can also offer your loyalty to the patriarch in Istanbul.

    If you actually want a fair trade you can have Antalya for all of Russia’s black sea regions combined, I think Russians would love that deal (but not the nationalist Russians). 🙂

    Actually on a second thought, it still isn’t a good deal for Turks. So you keep it.

  83. @Aedib

    Well yes, I point that out here, but also noted that the prospect of Turkish air power coming to bail the Azeris out might have made them bold enough to do things like that.

    In any case as it turns it’s an immaterial issue, the Azeris have since seized the outlying territories to the north, nullifying any such Armenian threat. Fuzuli is also pretty clearly now under Azeri control, a week ahead of when I expected it to happen.

    Poor performance on the whole from the Armenians. I suppose that’s what happens when you play at democratic politics while the other side prepares for a serious war.

    • Replies: @Aedib
    , @Yevardian
  84. Aedib says:
    @Belarusian Dude

    I bet Azeri would retake most of all lowlands but highlands are outside its ability, even with an obscene use of drones and Turk supplies. The easy part is almost done but the hard one just will bleed them.

    • Agree: Belarusian Dude
  85. Aedib says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    An open Turkish aerial intervention is a mayor escalation. Will the Sultan try to do this? I think just in case the things start to evolve really wrong for Azerbaijan.

  86. Annatar says:

    The situation on the ground has massively deteriorated for the Armenians in the past few days, in the south the Azeri army is almost all the way to the Armenian border, the Armenian forces in the south seem to have collapsed completely in the face of the Azeri army, it is clear the Armenians of 2020 are not the Armenians of 1992-1994, plenty of videos now of Armenian troops running away from their positions online, no evidence Armenians are willing to stand and fight to the end for their land like they keep claiming.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Yevardian
  87. Meena says:
    @22pp22

    The scourge of the world represented by unreformed France ,the historical Czarist Russia ,and colonial British whose vestige still is palpable need to be removed and chastened further respectively .

    Did France support disintegration of Ottoman?
    Did Russia support disintegration of Ottoman and Turkey proper ?
    Did colonial Britain support destruction of Ottoman?
    Did those support include the historically established long term citizen of Ottoman Empire who happened to be ethnically Christian and known as Armenian ?
    Did Armenian kill local mayors police officers merchants ambassador chief of the state ,soldiers and expel local Muslims ?
    Did Armenian diaspora of Europe and Czar Russia
    with citizenship of Ottoman Empire form political parties with assassination murder extortion and treason as main mechanisms of operation etched into religious ethnic national languages into its political souls?

    What a bunch of thugs !

    Now they want money , and recognition of genocide !, may be they should get it from disturbed narrative of Benn Morris who under force changed his own account on different occasions .

    Time to remove France as a free country on the world map . It should be given same treatment Vietnam,Algeria got under it for a while .

    That bastard still talk of false Armenian genocide when that son of a bitch country has not admitted it’s own culpability in manufacturing few and inability to rid itself of greed ,tendency to steal, penchant to keep occupied and maintain exploitative repressive serfdom in sub Saharan Africa.

  88. Meena says:
    @Agathoklis

    .

    Genocide of the magnitude perpetrated by European power has yet not been written . We can start with attacks on N Africa and slowly go down to Congo Belgium Chad Niger CAR and then come to Haiti , and Ottoman provinces .

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    , @EldnahYm
  89. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    They are indigenous, but not in Crimea. Same as Turks, who are indigenous, but not in present-day Turkey.

    Both Crimean Tatars and Turks are indigenous to their regions because they are both mostly descended from the pre-Turkish populations. In the case of Crimean Tatars, this is largely Greek in the coasts and Gothic in the highlands (the East Gothic language survived in Crimea as late as the 15th century IIRC). Crimean Tatars may be more non-native than Turks, something like 40% IIRC.

    An analogy would be mostly-Indian by descent, exclusively Spanish-speaking Catholic Mestizos from Central America. They are natives to their lands.

    • Agree: Rattus Norwegius
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    , @AnonFromTN
  90. @Meena

    Speaking of scourges, you can still see the borders of the Ottoman Empire by looking at HDI, GDP and other indexes on a map, wherever the Turks were present these stats nosedive

    Here is another, though now less relevant example

  91. @Meena

    Although you are a crazy and deluded maniac, still its true that France committed a genocide or multiple genocides in Algeria during the 19th Century, but now France suffers from those crimes of past. In the end French did not successfully colonize Algeria and Maghreb. but Algeria and Maghreb successfully colonized the France. Yes there was once a time when 1/8 of the population of Algeria was European, in the early 20th Century, cities like Algiers, Constance had a European majority, even Tunis and Casablanca had almost half of their people from Europe. Courts of law, police, land, was controlled by Europeans. Thus goes the pendulum of history.

    Most Turks that I have met, have been very conscious about the Srebrenica and various other Serb war crimes against Muslims in the former Yugoslavia. Okay maybe Srebrenica is true, maybe Serbs killed 10-20 000 Muslim civilians in the area of Bosnia, so by Anatolian “turkish” logic it was a big enough reason for Bosnians to lose their loyalty towards the Yugoslavia. Right? But what about then Armenians, who were already killed hundreds of thousands in the Hamidian massacres of the 1890’s, why would anybody be crazy enough in such a situation, that they would later support those who have killed and persecuted them?

  92. @Felix Keverich

    I’ve given my opinions on this elsewhere so I’ll just give quick thoughts here: Its a distinct possibility that we will end up in the rotten pit Ukraine is in, but for now it seems that we are going to stay in the rotten pit of our own especially since snow already fell in my home of Homel and will soon start to disperse the protests I believe.

  93. A.R. says:
    @22pp22

    Your words to Meena shows pretty clearly who is ” a truly loathsome individual ” here. Despicable comment.

  94. @AP

    I agree with you, but Crimean Tatars have different groups by origin about 20% of them are descended from the Nogay Turks, who have quite much Central Asian Turkic or Mongolian genes, but rest of them are mostly by descent, Turkified Greeks, Goths, and when Mongols came there, most of the population of the Crimean steppe was Kipchaks, Cumans and Pechenegs, the Turkic history of Crimea is very old, at least from the 6th or 5th Century, when the Bulgars came, probably even before, for its very probable that some of the tribes of the Huns were Turkic. So I would say that there is minority of Crimean Tatars who have some Turko-Mongolian blood from the Golden Horde and the Mongol Empire, but most of them are almost completely descendants of before mentioned populations.
    The Crimean Tatars themselves by the way divide their population into three groups, one of them is Nogais, who exclusively lived on the steppe regions of the Crimean Khanate and share their origin with the Nogai Turks of old Astrakhan Khanate and the Nogai Khanate of Western Kazakhstan.

    By the way Crimean Gothic was definitely spoken till 16th Century.

  95. Meena says:
    @AltanBakshi

    “ Although you are a crazy and deluded mania”

    Don’t post your selfie here .

  96. I find it surprising that a Christian nation is giving a Muslim nation a run for its money militarily and in terms of fighting prowess, especially one with a much smaller population.

    The typical Western “counter Jihad” view is that Christians are extremely passivistic and non-violent people who would be pulverised by a much more aggressive and violent Muslim army.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  97. @Blade

    Einstein was not comprehensive when he said “only two things are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity; and I am not sure about the Universe”. Human ignorance is at least as vast as human stupidity. The claim that Slavs came from Baltics has about as much merit as the claim the Brits came from the Moon.

    FYI, the great majority of Crimean Tatars now live in Crimea, only a small fraction ran away in 2014. Even the parents of Jamala, who Ukies like to push forward after her “win” at Eurovision, refused to move from Crimea. Crimean Tatar language became one of the official languages in Crimea only after Crimea returned to Russia in 2014.

    Modern Russians have a significant admixture of Tatar genes. Tatars speak Turkish languages, but they do not consider themselves Turks. Modern Russians also have a significant admixture of Ugro-Finnish tribes that lived side by side with Slavs for centuries. Russians are a good example showing that pure nations exist only in sick imagination of tribal nationalists, not in reality.

    • Replies: @Gerard.Gerard
    , @Blade
  98. @AP

    There is no doubt that modern Crimean Tatars are a mix of many original nations/tribes, the ones you listed and others. They are a good example showing that pure nations exist only in sick imagination of tribal nationalists, not in reality. History that is considered Tatar proper is usually started from 1233, when the Golden Horde conquered Crimea, but Turkish-speaking people were in Crimea long before that. Later Crimean Khanate was one of many shards of the Golden Horde.

    • Replies: @Aedib
  99. Aedib says:
    @AnonFromTN

    What about Crimean Italians and Crimean Greeks? How much are they Genoese, Venetians and Athenians?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AnonFromTN
  100. @Blade

    Crimea is where Vladimir was baptised….. so it is the birthplace of Russian civilisation you dimwit.
    Russians have lived there for over a millenium and it is integral to our defence for over 200 years, home to 2 of our hero cities, noted place of many Soviet summer childhoods and critical stone of modern Russian state because of wars there against Turks, Germans, British and French

    • Replies: @Blade
  101. @Aedib

    They were all part of the mix. In fact, several Orthodox Christian states in Crimea survived the fall of Byzantium. I think Theodoro Principality (twelfth century AD) was the last of them.

  102. @Aedib

    An interesting historical vignette. Russian tsarina Catherine the Great encouraged Crimean Greeks to move to a new place in the Russian Empire, which is now called Mariupol. As Greeks and Slavs were the backbone of productive populace in Crimea (Khanate-affiliated Tatars were only good at fighting), this crashed the Khanate economy and speed up its downfall.

    • Thanks: Aedib
  103. Dmitry says:

    Armenian soldiers seem to be clustering into still larger groups now, and the Bayraktar drones to kill them more conveniently. What are they doing at all these times like 2:50 or 4:07 climbing on top of each other.

    It seems like the soldiers have not allowed to access the internet by their commanders or have not watched the drone videos and they don’t understand the danger they are facing.

    Not only in how they don’t understand the An-2 decoys, but also in not showing any defense against threat of drones, (even to an armchair general) there seems surely something delayed or inflexible about the Armenia’s military planning (for example, the soldiers lying in trenches).

    Turkey’s Bayraktar drones were raping the Syrian army in January in Idlib and uploaded on YouTube.

    We would assume everyone interested in military was watching all of the infamous videos of the Syrian army being hit by the Bayraktar drones – was 9 months ago. Apparently, Armenia’s commanders have not planned tactics of defense while operating under the drones, despite these videos which were shown on YouTube in January.

    • Replies: @Дима Трамп
  104. @AnonFromTN

    Jamala’s parents refused to move from Crimea

    Same thing with Klimkin, clumsy thug dirtbag ex Ukrop Foreign Minister – his wife’s parents live in Crimea and his father in-law is in the army and received an award from the Russian state for his actions during the reunification.

    I think his parents may have also been living in Russiain 2014,though this is unclear. So in a position where his kids can’t see their grandparents!

    Poroshenko’ s son is married to a Russian (her parents living in Saint Petersburg).

    As is the reality for all these Ukrainian “nationalists”…. there is a significant chance that both Klimkin & Poroshenko/Valtsman have Russian citizenshipd also!

    On the issue of this garbage Eurovision contest…. Ukrop hilariously failed to select a candidate for the last competition, because all of them were too Russia connected or refused to agree to never tour Russia (a suicidal option for any Ukrainian performer,

    • LOL: Yevardian
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  105. @Korenchkin

    Do you think that Turkey will accept Vucic’s offer to buy some TB-2 Drones?

    I’d personally be surprised if they do.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  106. @Gerard.Gerard

    As is the reality for all these Ukrainian “nationalists”…. there is a significant chance that both Klimkin & Poroshenko/Valtsman have Russian citizenshipd also!

    I am not sure about Klimkin – he is genuinely dumb. But I wouldn’t be surprised about Porky – he is a wily bastard. You have to be to get that rich having a convicted criminal father and having organized your brother’s murder to avoid sharing the loot.

  107. @Korenchkin

    The Ottoman Empire truly was quite bad and atrocious for all its Christian inhabitants from start to finish. It’s extremely obnoxious how Liberals and Islamists are relentlessly trying to whitewash and distort its historical record.

    As far as Serbs are concerned, the only reason why Serbs don’t complain a lot about the Ottoman Empire is because WW1, WW2 and the 1990’s proved to be even worse (although the Ottoman Empire was the single worst thing for Serbs at the time during most of its existence) …

    • Agree: Дима Трамп
    • Replies: @Blade
  108. Blade says:
    @Gerard.Gerard

    And how does that conflict with anything that I have said?

  109. @Meena

    Thanks for the reminder that, at the end of the day, Turkroaches are still < Armenoids.

  110. Meena says:
    @Agathoklis

    The book says “ we have incontrovertible evidence of anti -Armenian genocide by Ottoman during the period of 1915-1916”
    Nobody is trying to airbrush this entirely .Question is what’s happened before 1915.

    The book also say how prominent Greek and Armenian were in the offices , banking , shipping , manufacturing and administration of the Ottoman Empire starting from at least 18 th century .

    The Armenian attempts to break the country apart with helps of foreign enemies like Czar’s Russia from 1880 get not much attention .
    Russia was already occupying core areas of Turkey ( not the empire, we are talking of Turkey proper ) Armenian and Czar Russia started the process of disintegration thinking it would be cost free and cakewalk .

    What would USA do if in about 200 years from now , after enjoying the social political status Cuban – American decides to secede from USA and join Cuba or form an independent country with help of Chinese or Venezuela using terror against civilians .

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  111. @Dmitry

    There was an ANNA News report that showed that the AN-2 UAV carry warheads so they are not entirely decoys. Not sure where the idea of decoys came from – all the videos of them getting hit show large explosions.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  112. Blade says:
    @AnonFromTN

    It has been long since I’ve read Russian history. I thought they came from Baltic Sea region, and originally Scandinavian. Regardless, pretty sure most of modern Russia was populated by proto Turks, and related groups Finns, Magyars etc.

    I just had a historical claim / question, not really interested in issues beyond that. Agreed that pure races or nations don’t exist except in isolation. But it was also you who claimed Turks were living on trees in 1000 BC while Russians themselves were not an inch more advanced than those proto Turks, in fact even much later they converted to Turkic lifestyle and formed Cossacks, no? I also think that Russian culture is influenced by Turkic cultures more than people realize, including love of authoritarianism and expansionism. Weren’t they more democratic (not in modern sense) initially?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  113. @128

    I have no idea what or who you’re referencing here.

    All I can say is that Jews are shilling hard now on the side of Islamic jihadists, as indeed they have always done throughout history.

    At least the shabbos-goy get paid. Repeating Jewish chutzpah like an NPC just because it’s circling around the interwebs is much sadder and much more lame.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  114. Blade says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Nonsense. You know zero history and you just proved it. If Turks were so atrocious how come they were a minority by the collapse of the empire? In fact, Turks were too tolerant to the point of fault. If Turks were like most other nations, there would be zero Christians left in most of East and Central Europe.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  115. Barr says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    “In short, it seems like the usual pattern of Communists not understanding things but issuing “strong” top-down directives to appear competent and decisive. It can certainly be expected to beat the sheer incompetence and dysfunction you’d see in responses to an epidemic in the Third World. But I expect Western Europe and the Anglosphere to perform better.”

    Chinese Response to Corona Nothing to Write Home About
    Anatoly Karlin • January 29, 2020
    • 300 Words

    Didn’t you write something like this that Russia should recognize Israeli sovereignty over Golan in exchange for Crimea?

    Now you are calling people cockroaches.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  116. @Anatoly Karlin

    Russian ambassador to Turkey killed in targeted attack

    When some Iraqi guy tried to kill Israel’s ambassador to the United Kingdom back in 1982, the Israelis pinned the blamw on the PLO and absolutely lashed out, launching their war in Lebanon, when will Russia finally do the right thing?

  117. Blade says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    You caught my interest with that argument you just made. Could you make a comparative list of following nations with the names you made up for them. Americans, Africans, Turkroaches, Armenoids, Chinese, Russians, Ukrainians, Germans and Jews. Could you make a list from best to worst, I think we all could benefit from knowing where we stand in the hierarchy of supremacy.

  118. @Blade

    First Russian rulers came from Scandinavia (Rurik), not the populace.

    You are right, in the 1st millennium BC Slavs were likely no more advanced than Turks (although there is scarce evidence to go by in either case).

    Cossacks were a mixed bag. Zaporozhian Cossacks were culturally Turks: salwar pants, as well as their haircut with shaved head and one long tuft of hair are decidedly Turkish (no matter what Ukies pretend to believe). Don, Siberia, and Urals Cossacks were quite different, culturally Russian, nothing Turkish about them.

    Expansionism: British Empire expanded much more than Ottoman or Russian. Would you blame that on Turks?

    Authoritarianism: today’s Russia is more democratic than self-proclaimed “democracies” of the West. There is much greater difference of viewpoints in MSM (including TV), much greater responsiveness of the powers that be to the populace. In fact, the uniformity of “opinions” in MSM in today’s West was matched only in Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s USSR (at about the same time). Would you blame Turks for today’s Western ills?

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Blade
  119. @Blade

    I am curious whether AK would respond and what he’d say. If I try to do it, I’d come up with very different rankings for peoples vs the policy of their governments. To give an example, I’d say that the phrase “every nation has the government it deserves” should be considered rabidly anti-American.

  120. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I think they might, atm we’re not in any direct conflict with their interests (key words here being “at the moment”)

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  121. Aedib says:

    According to Colonel Cassad, the Azeri have retaken almost all the Artsakh-Iranian border.

  122. @Blade

    Lak-chads at the top of tree for esoteric racism.

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
  123. @Anatoly Karlin

    Honestly, as someone of Armenian origin, the nation that we ought to be mad at is Georgia. I don’t hate them, but they have allowed jihadists and weaponry to fly over their airspace for weeks now. This prolonged war is partially because of them. When we confront them over that, they don’t even bother doing the whole “it is our government, not us Georgian people” schtick, but rather go as far as to justify it by saying, “you helped Russia in 2008.” Shocking, considering it is only a matter of time before these jihadists would start harassing them as well.

  124. @128

    Shawarma is Levantine, not Caucasian. I think you mean Kebabs.

  125. Max Payne says:

    Look at this stupid shit. No one has any under-camo thermals standing out like targets relative to the ground. Armenia must be the only state in the world not to have Chinese thermal blankets in stock. Paramedics in Armenia must protest about this immediately.

    Just WEAR UNDER YOUR CAMO you cheap fucks!

    And what is this? What asshole moves units in a line like that in the open? Are they moving to contact? Is that how you do it in modern operations? You drive up a shitload of guys with your highly visible trucks, cluster them as they idle with their noisy hot suet emitting engines on, wait for an entire company to get into formation, and then u-turn to get more meat for the grinder?

    Troops at this stage should not be visible, especially when I hear Armenia itself is firing tactical ballistic missiles regularly (so the level of action has escalated). I don’t know how prepared Armenia and this NK region was but if they didn’t spend that time digging tunnels, bunkers and IMPORTANTLY military roads (not on any civilian map, hidden by foliage, meant to allow quick unobserved usually out-of-the-way transportation for heavy vehicles ie SCUDs, etc.) then they didn’t appreciate their situation.

    What’s the point of motor transporting infantry to the front rapidly just to have them slaughtered? If there is no system to move soft targets such as infantry from AO to AO (hill to hill, town to town, whatever) you’ve failed to plan appropriately to your situation. If you need infantry to assault over open plains or hold the lines in open areas you’ve failed to understand basic science.

    After three weeks of consistent bombardment no one in middle to upper command said “hey… maybe we need stop nursing our thumbs with our assholes and change our SOP when it comes to moving in formations… you know… because we’re dying out there”.

    Then again, in such cases we are seeing a selection effect where clustered Armenians get blown up

    How many Turk/Azeri/Mohammedan faction drones are in the air in this operation to allow hand selected footage to trickle every 2-3 business days?

    In that video alone an entire company (60+ men) just got wiped out in a single attack. Does no one in command react to this? That company is out of the commission, men with no legs or vision may not be added to the death count but they sure as shit are out of the fight.

    I’d be less disappointed if Azerbaijan committed some hot-shit elite operation using airborne divisions and mountain troops in some blitzkrieg-like deep battle maneuver holding critical junctions followed by a huge frontal all-or-nothing mountain armor assault…. but no… just deploy your foreign bought drones from Amazon, pay the subscription satellite bandwidth fee and shoot retardedly at retarded targets. Once in a while assault as retardedly as your opposition. Rinse. Repeat.

    It’s like watching the AI fight each other in Operation Flashpoint Cold War Crisis. Pure slapstick.

  126. @Max Payne

    What’s up with the lack of air defence on Armenia’s part? One would expect Third World insurgents to be victims of such drone strikes as opposed to professional armies with radar systems and SAMs, yet as you say, these videos of Azeri aerial slaughters against the Armenians slaughters are released over and over again.

  127. utu says:

    Thermal blankets work only for a limited time. They eventually heat up and produce thermal signature. Then they keep moisture in so you are wet.

  128. @Meena

    The slaughter of Armenians started from around 1895. Greeks and Armenians were in prominent commercial sectors of the Ottoman economy but that changed around the 1890s. This process accelerated in the early 1900s as the Ottoman state and later the Kemalist state could not accept ethnic/religious minorities in Anatolia.

    The comparison with the US is facile. The Ottoman empire was not a nation-state but an empire. Also, you fail to mention that the Ottoman empire began to conduct progroms, including massacres, against the Armenians and later the Greeks and Assyrians, so the hypothesis of Cuban-Americans enjoying social political freedom is not comparable.

    • Replies: @Meena
  129. KA says:
    @Agathoklis

    Interesting book . Lest look at Greek . From 1 consulate, the country known as Greece established 20 consulates by 1904 in Ottoman spreading ideas of greater Greece ,Greek nationalism ,and cultural superiority among ethnic Greek living in Asia Minor ,borders town near Macedonia and was openly talking of having Istanbul as its future capital known as new Constantinople .
    Soon the Greek king was declared King of Hellen whose manifest ideas was that this meant Greek leader was the leader of all Greeks living outside Greece . To Greece , the 1830 establishment of Greece was temporary territorial arrangement with provision for expansion .

    Ottoman tolerated it .

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  130. Meena says:
    @Agathoklis

    Long before 1895, Armenian returning from abroad with help of America ,Russia ,Switzerland and France was trying to establish a state within a state . The year was 1855.

    Empire was the norm and was not exception. Those arguments are like playing with words . Florida was never part of Europe ,was never part of 13 colony .

    Long before pogrom, anti nationalism was evident in Armenian movement powered by European empires .

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  131. @KA

    Yes, this was a particularly fruitful period for Hellenism. God forbid people trying to liberate themselves from the scourge of Ottomanism.

  132. @Meena

    These countries were trying to break up the Ottoman empire because it stank of backwardness, under-development and institutionalised racism. It was a sh#thole.

    • Replies: @Meena
  133. @anonymous coward

    Identify exactly what I said that qualifies as:

    you’re translating Jewish bullshit (a.k.a. chutzpah) here in the article. Shame on you. I’ll assume you’re acting in good faith, so please vet your sources better.

    (In your opinion).

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  134. Meena says:

    Only juxtaposing Syrian situation of last 20 years agonist the historical developments of Ottoman starting from 1775 when Czar forced on Turkey to be given the power of protection over all orthodox Christian within Ottomna empire ,we can understand the preying on Ottoman by the combined foreign empires and the 5 th column within the nation of Turkey .Internal and external forces started destroying the nation from within and from outside .
    Armenia was one of those forces working from Inside .
    Apparently Turkey was supposed to accept the plans hatched by Europeans thugs . Syria didn’t do . Turkey had no reason to oblige .

    Putting the cart before the horse or effects before the causes will not help understand the heavy handed approach of Syria and neither will help understand the so called Armenian genocide .

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    , @Agathoklis
  135. @Barr

    Didn’t you write something like this that Russia should recognize Israeli sovereignty over Golan in exchange for Crimea?

    I don’t recall doing so, and apparently, neither does the UR search engine: https://www.unz.com/?s=golan&Action=Search&ptype=all&commentsearch=only&commenter=Anatoly+Karlin&sortby=latest

    • Replies: @Barr
  136. Meena says:
    @Agathoklis

    Now you are showing your inherent inadequacy with reason and facts but also as expected you are exhibiting supremacy of certain types which Turkey doesn’t give a toss to.
    Reply to 134 and 135 .

  137. @Blade

    Ask Hakan, I am but his disciple.

    • Replies: @Blade
  138. @Max Payne

    I don’t know how prepared Armenia and this NK region was but if they didn’t spend that time digging tunnels, bunkers and IMPORTANTLY military roads (not on any civilian map, hidden by foliage, meant to allow quick unobserved usually out-of-the-way transportation for heavy vehicles ie SCUDs, etc.) then they didn’t appreciate their situation.

    I don’t think they did, from what I’ve seen on videos the quality of Armenian military fortifications leaves much to be desired.

    And, it can’t be blamed exclusively on Pashinyan. He’s only been in power 2 years.

    How many Turk/Azeri/Mohammedan faction drones are in the air in this operation to allow hand selected footage to trickle every 2-3 business days?

    Well I’m not defending Armenian competence, just saying they are still exceptions rather than rules. But those exceptions are happening too fast. 50 men lost per day as I pointed out in an earlier post is comparable to the UK in WW1 as a share of the population per unit time, these easy to avoid fish in a barrel shootings are contributing a large share of that.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  139. Aedib says:

    The performance of Armenian electronic warriors have been dismailing. They were completely unable to deal with drone attacks. Syrians (may be with Russian help) seems to have been much better in the subject.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  140. @Aedib

    Syrians (may be with Russian help)

    Are you too young to remember a joke from the period of Vietnam war? Vietnamese delegation comes to MO, and the head says: “we liked very much your surface-to-air missiles. We want to purchase surface-to-airplane ones now”.

    • LOL: Aedib
  141. @Meena

    Again, the Ottoman Empire was not a nation. It was an empire of which Sunni Muslims, later to be known as Turks, were only a part. Therefore, there could not have been a 5th column within the nation of Turkey because that so-called Turkish nation did not have a state.

    It is very simple to grasp.

  142. @Meena

    You seem to have this impression the Ottoman empire was one big happy family and we should all have been grateful to accept dhimmitude and live under the Sultan. Of course, 20 years of Erdogan propaganda does this to illiterate people.

    • Agree: 22pp22
    • Replies: @Meena
  143. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Zaporozhian Cossacks were culturally Turks: salwar pants, as well as their haircut with shaved head and one long tuft of hair are decidedly Turkish

    If clothes define culture, any non-European in a suit is culturally a European.

  144. Meena says:
    @Agathoklis

    No point to discuss with you.
    Accept the responsibility of bringing the responses of Ottoman upon yourself .
    You had it good for centuries . Hatred and bad influence from fellow Christian exposed your nightmare what you thought would be a sweet dream .
    Now your illiteracy being exposed by the very book that you refer to .
    What can you?
    Write a book and sale it to other illiterates .

    • Troll: AltanBakshi
  145. Sure, now run back to your yurt.

    • Troll: AltanBakshi
  146. Dmitry says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    From the videos, it seems that Armenia are losing a lot more than 50 soldiers each day. Try to count the soldiers in drone videos uploaded each day (I tried with one video and it thought it was something like 100-150 figures on the screen who could be killed).

    Also I’m not sure why you say it is fault of the soldiers, or claim it is selection. The responsibility is with the Armenian politicians and military commanders, not 18-19 year old conscripts.

    War is not an academic test – students of Harvard University if conscripted, would also group close together, if they were propagandized everyday by their leadership to believe they were winning the war, and did not understand the danger to their life from the air.

    If the soldiers are only allowed to be exposed to their own propaganda, and were not watching or shown Azerbaijan’s drone videos – then they are (as it seems from the videos) unaware of the threat they are facing.

    The fact the (albeit a small third-world) country’s leadership should have been for years to train for fighting against drones Azerbaijan is parading, and it became especially acute in January this year with videos from Idlib.

    During the war itself, they should have been honest to their own soldiers, about the real situation and that they are being watched and killed from the air, rather than promoting to soldiers grandmother’s tales to boost their mood.

    Armenia were digging their trenches, when Azerbaijan is parading their drones. There was no secret for Armenia, but some kind of inflexibility and lack of preparation for this threat.

    At 1:02:00 – in 2018 Azerbaijanis even add drones on back of cars, and drive them around Baku Apparently Armenia, had little plan to manage this danger, or even inform their soldiers.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  147. Dmitry says:
    @Max Payne

    Azerbaijan is a small “lower second world economy”, whose main export is oil; Armenia is a small, “upper third world economy”, whose main export is Armenians.

    The income and population difference results in Azerbaijan having around 4 times larger GDP (depending on things like currency rates) in the last two decades.

    As a result of the financial difference, there developed disparity between the two countries in terms of what technology they could afford to import (although Russia has tried to boost Armenia’s military equipment, allowing them to purchase them loans which are later forgiven); above all the disparity has developed in terms of drones and guided weapons.

    This is no secret for Armenia’s leadership. Azerbaijan boast about every weapon they import, and parade it around Baku once a year. Azerbaijan has guided artillery and drones.

    We can see news reports of earlier this year, explaining that Azerbaijan was purchasing of the Bayraktar drones. It required approval of Turkey’s parliament, so was not some mysterious secret that Armenia could not plan for.

    Azerbaijan Military May Soon Get Famed Turkish-Made Drones

    Azerbaijan is expected to import brand new Turkish-made military drones, following the parliament’s ratification of a military-financial agreement between Baku and Ankara for the purchase of defense products worth 200 million Turkish lira, or nearly $30 million.

    The deal that was signed during Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s visit to Baku on February 24 has passed the endorsement of Azerbaijan’s parliament Milli Majlis on May 31. Head of the parliament’s defense and security committee Ziyafat Asgarov said the document serves to strengthen the mutual military cooperation even further and contribute to the development of the Azerbaijani army.

    The document outlines the conditions for using around $30 million, which is equivalent to a total of 200 million Turkish lira, for purchasing goods and services for military purposes from local enterprises engaged in 100 percent domestic production in Turkey, primarily at will.

    https://caspiannews.com/news-detail/azerbaijan-military-may-soon-get-famed-turkish-made-drones-2020-6-7-16/

    Armenia’s leadership should have been studying drone videos the day and night, and training their soldiers for this threat. Turkey uploaded so many videos of drone strikes against Syria’s army, in Idlib, earlier this year, so the viewpoint of the drone operator was not secret to anyone who has YouTube.

    But Armenia seems to be preparing for a 20th century war. If we look at 0:05 or 0:17 or 1:20 – they are clearly building fortifications and digging holes for equipment, as if there was going to be tanks running against them laterally, instead of drones above them.

  148. Dmitry says:
    @Дима Трамп

    When Armenia engages them with SAMs, it means that the radar “lights up” and it would be possible for Azerbaijan if it is monitoring, to know the location of Armenian SAMs are. The best defense for SAMs is for the enemy not to know their location.

  149. @Korenchkin

    ‘Speaking of scourges, you can still see the borders of the Ottoman Empire by looking at HDI, GDP and other indexes on a map, wherever the Turks were present these stats nosedive…’

    One reason for that — although admittedly not the only reason — is that in many areas the middle and upper classes tended to convert to Islam and become ‘Turks.’

    This happened in the area you map. When the Turks left, so did much of the upper strata of society. What was left was disproportionately a land of illiterate peasants.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  150. Yevardian says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Poor performance on the whole from the Armenians. I suppose that’s what happens when you play at democratic politics while the other side prepares for a serious war.

    Incidentally, there were recently (a few weeks before the war) moderate-sized protests and local unrest regarding the discussion of a large open-pit (recently discovered) gold mine (the company was ‘Lycia’ or something similar, iirc, it was in Armenian news, I don’t know if it was even reported in any other language) around Yerkut. People were saying that Pashinyan didn’t have the right political image to openly crush it like Sargisyan would have done. I didn’t think anything of it at the time, but that might also have something to do with your ‘now-or-never’ conjectures regarding the timing of the roach invasion.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
  151. Did anyone discuss what Israel’s current relations are with Azerbaijan?

  152. Yevardian says:
    @Annatar

    it is clear the Armenians of 2020 are not the Armenians of 1992-1994, plenty of videos now of Armenian troops running away from their positions online, no evidence Armenians are willing to stand and fight to the end for their land like they keep claiming.

    Well, the Azeri military is now far better equipped and led (there are actual Turks-proper coordinating them this time), and in face of marked numerical inferiority, retreating to more defensible highland positions make sense. Considering the current situation, buying time and holding the corridor, until hopefully international displeasure at Azeri aggression forces a peace, whilst minimising manpower losses is probably the best strategy.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  153. Yevardian says:
    @Meena

    France and Britain actually fought Russia in a brief but bloody war, to save the Ottoman Empire from disintegration, you retard. Not to mention threatening Mohamad Ali’s Egypt with invasion if he continued beating the Turks, all the way to Anatolia (imagine your Empire being overthrown by an Albanian).

    • Replies: @Meena
  154. LondonBob says:
    @Yevardian

    Lydian, who are now being wound up, although maybe someone else will take on the project, it is big one. Polymetal sold their small gold mine in Armenia to Chaarat in 2018. Lydian would have brought much needed revenue for Armenia, can’t understand countries who block these developments. The two countries I have had most trouble with are Argentina and Greece, no coincidence both have been basket cases in recent years, although looks like Greece might finally grant Eldorado the license for Skouries, the new Greek government are a cut above the Syriza loons previously in power. Canada, Russia, Brazil etc., you apply for a mining license and you always get it. Even Azerbaijan lets Anglo Asian mine in their country.

    • Replies: @Znzn
  155. @Europe Europa

    You are consistently wrong.

    Christians are often passive and nonviolent (especially the non religious variant, which is not very Christian to begin with), but historically Christian peoples have always been much better in military prowess. In fact, Muslim militaries are usually known for their remarkable incompetence.

  156. @Dmitry

    Also I’m not sure why you say it is fault of the soldiers, or claim it is selection. The responsibility is with the Armenian politicians and military commanders, not 18-19 year old conscripts.

    1. The selection in question refers to only videos showing successful hits being shown. Also far from all the people in drone strikes get killed or in some cases even seriously injured.

    2. Correct, it’s the responsibility of the officers. Assuming officer IQ is 15 points above average IQ, by the same token you still can’t expect of 108 IQ officiers what you would of 118 IQ officiers, so the point stands either which way.

  157. @Blade

    Nonsense. You know zero history and you just proved it.

    I know zero history about what the Ottoman Empire did to Serbs which is why hundreds of thousands of Serbs fled the Ottoman Empire across hundreds of years because it was so great and wonderful …

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs

    You should also drop the whole having your children be kidnapped by Turko-Muslim invaders and then “educated” as Janissaries was a privilege shit, because literally no one in the Balkans (besides Bosniaks and a few Albanians) buys it at all.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Mihailovi%C4%87

    This is of course only a small product of arbitrary Ottoman Turko-Muslim invasions, pillaging, rampages and aggressions against Christians for literally no other reason than their primitive instincts and Islamic religious fanaticism.

    It includes “small” things like the sacking and burning of Belgrade in 1521 and relocating all of it’s Serb inhabitants to a suburb of modern day Istanbul to serve as Rayah slaves.

    Even in peacetime the Ottoman Empire was literally a system of Islamic supremacy over Christians and “infidels” rigged to have a parasitic Muslim oligarchic elite exploit large masses of Christians.

    The Jizya tax was not actually just a “tax” at all but instead a system of ritual humiliation of Christians by Muslim occupiers. It included not just higher monetary taxes but Christians needed to constantly bow their heads when a Muslim passed, were not allowed to own guns, horses, did not have a right to protest or legally challenge an abuse or injustice by a Muslim against them according to the rules of Islamic Sharia Law (as in, a Christians word was always worth less then a Muslim’s in an Ottoman court and mostly overridden by Muslims regardless of anything) and etc.

    Seriously, read some Srdja Trifkovic to educate yourself about the realities of the Ottoman Empire:

    https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/blog/reflections-on-the-tragedy-of-the-hagia-sophia/

    https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/blog/the-ottoman-zenith-/

    https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/blog/back-to-the-mosque/

    Oh and btw, I personally wasn’t really bothered by Turkey despite Erdogan’s bizarre “Alija Izetbegovich bequeathed Bosnia to me on his deathbed” and “Kosovo is Turkey, Turkey is Kosovo” remarks until Erdogan converted Hagia Sophia into a mosque this year. I even actually thought about visiting Turkey as a tourist, but I believe I’m now firmly in the “fuck Turkey” camp, and I’d be personally safer and better off not visiting a place I have a few negative opinions about, especially not to end up like Andre Vitchek or anything …

    If Turks were so atrocious how come they were a minority by the collapse of the empire?

    Maybe because Turks aren’t even a real nation at all?

    Turkic is a racial category, while “Turk” is an Islamic millet category of the majority population of the Ottoman Empire. Most Turks aren’t actually Turkic at all (Azeris are also mostly Iranic/Persian and Tatars) but instead a bunch of Turko-mutt rapeseeds of conquered Christian sedentary populations or Christian converts to Islam across centuries from among Armenians, Georgians, Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians and etc.

    So when Turks where supposedly a minority in the Ottoman Empire, they weren’t even actually Turks at all, but the Muslim population millet which was not a minority at all (especially after independence of Balkan states) …

    Also, even some Muslim minorities and populations strongly dislike and hate the Ottoman Empire. They include groups such as Arabs, Alevis, Alawites, Shias and some others that have a history of suffering injustice, being massacred and engaging in many wars and rebellions against the Ottoman Empire.

    If Turks were like most other nations, there would be zero Christians left in most of East and Central Europe.

    You’re ignoring the fact that the Ottoman Empire’s borders in East and Central Europe were a constant battlefield with frequent border changes, mass migrations of Christians fleeing the Ottoman Empire, wars and even during peace treaties constant raids by Ottoman horsemen with counters by Christian cavalry and border guards (mostly Krajina, Vojvodina and Banat Serbs in the case of the Habsburg Empire).

    Also, even deliberately not exterminating an entire Christian population in order to keep it alive as a Rayah to bleed and abuse in an arbitrarily subhuman fashion with the assistance of Jewish tax farmers does not count as some form of “mercy” or “lenience”. Not to mention the assumption that compared to the Ottomans other Empires apparently exterminated their non-conformist minorities is factually wrong (especially in the case of the Russian Empire).

    Finally, congrats, you managed to reduce Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians to a non-existent statistical error in Asia Minor and Anatolia without being properly punished. Just don’t expect to try similar things again, and pursue Turko-Islamist aggressions and expansions without facing lots of backlash and vomit from many nations and religious groups across the world (it’s friendly advice you know) …

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Meena
    , @Meena
    , @Meena
    , @Meena
  158. Wielgus says:
    @Agathoklis

    Well, it is up against some fierce competition but it is certainly competitive.

  159. Znzn says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Maybe they are recycling videos? Btw the Armenians seem to be better at shooting down drones lately? Help from up north?

  160. Am surprised to not seeing here any mentioning of the Grand plan that seems pretty obvious:

    – Turkey and Russia have secretly agreed on strategic partnership, as both countries are locked out of the EU membership for any foreseeable future, and both are former empires longing for the large swath of controlled land they had lost. Putin and Erdogan are the two leaders best suited for the mission of preparing for the Grand unification. In fact, only such unification can guarantee survival of either country in the post-USA world dominated by China and, eventually, India, with the EU gradually disintegrating, losing on its way international power and cultural appeal.

    – As the current weights of the two countries are so different (but not altogether incommensurable), Turkey’s goal is to improve its standing to reach the status of an equal partner with Russia in this unification. This explains the rather friendly competition in Libya, Syria and NK, with the absence of direct confrontation and with lots of ongoing cooperation. If you think that Russia and Turkey are enemies, then please explain why Russians are still allowed (by both sides) to visit Turkey in droves as tourists (www.dailysabah.com/business/tourism/turkish-mediterranean-gem-antalya-expects-high-number-of-russian-visitors-through-december).

    – As part of the Grand deal, Turkey and Russia are currently clearing up the mess created by their respective previous governments. In particularly, they are now dividing the spheres of influence in the Caucasus. Apparently, solving the NK riddle is part of the agreed-upon deal. I dare not predict the endgame in this conflict, but the final solution is very likely to see both Russia and Turkey as strong guarantors of the post-war settlement. Armenian EU and NATO aspirations will be curtailed, and Azerbajdzjan will recognise both Turkey and Russia as strategic partners (already done, I think).

    – If this picture is correct, Turkey will strive to obtain nuclear weapon and develop its own strategic delivery system for them, as this is one of the cornerstones of the equal partnerships with the nuclear Russia. It is not unlikely that Russia will secretly help Turkey in that, e.g. by sending Ukrainian nuclear scientists that still have the relevant expertise. Sending Ukrainians will provide the necessary level of potential deniability for Russia.

    – Armenia.. Oh yes, Armenia. Well, a small potato, a mere chip in this big game. Who cares?

    Don’t fear, and don’t expect, a war between Turkey and Russia any time soon. Ain’t gonna happen!

  161. Znzn says:
    @LondonBob

    Because the byproducts of mining operations are poisonous?

  162. @AltanBakshi

    Most Turks that I have met, have been very conscious about the Srebrenica and various other Serb war crimes against Muslims in the former Yugoslavia.

    It’s good that you’re highlighting their vicious Islamist hypocrisy but I don’t think they really care.

    Okay maybe Srebrenica is true

    The “truth” about the Srebrenica massacre of July 1995 is that a few thousand Bosniak-Muslim ARBIH (Islamic Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina) POW’s were executed by certain elements of the VRS after Srebrenica was captured but it’s still a mystery as to how and why it really happened. Some of the executed POW’s were legitimate military targets because they were executed between Srebrenica and Zvornik since some POW’s attempted to escape and join a large armed column of Muslim males that was heading out of Srebrenica towards Zvornik. The VRS defeated this Muslim bands advance towards Zvornik and it then turned direction towards Tuzla just fine where they made it completely safe. The column/convoy/band was an obviously legitimate military target which is even acknowledged as such by the ridiculously anti-Serb ICTY and Hague joke.

    It’s also truly hypocritical for Bosniaks to complain and whine so much about the treatment of their POW’s by Serbs considering the fact that Izet Nanic literally impaled Serb POW’s on pikes and roasted them alive in Buzim and near Bihac not to mention all the other horrors even surviving Serb POW’s of Muslim camps went through (and yes, Muslim and Croat camps where far worse than all the lies and distortions about “Serb camps”).

    This is by far the best article I’ve read that comprehensively debunks “Srebrenica Genocide”

    https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/article/srebrenica-as-holocaust-trifkovic-the-genocide-denier/

    “Srebrenica Genocide” is ultimately a myth based on a lie.

    maybe Serbs killed 10-20 000 Muslim civilians in the area of Bosnia

    The problem is that Bosniaks deliberately fudge their military to civilian casualty ratios and numbers through all sorts of dirty tricks and are actively aided in this by international “western” liberal groups and organizations. Hence why many of their civilian casualties are actually males of military age. The overwhelming majority of Bosniak-Muslim casualties during the war is soldiers and military personnel.

    This also ignores the fact that Croats and Bosniaks also went to war with each other from 1992-1994 and there were a whole bunch of atrocities and casualties from fighting there that constitute a significant part of Bosniak casualties.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croat%E2%80%93Bosniak_War

    so by Anatolian “turkish” logic it was a big enough reason for Bosnians to lose their loyalty towards the Yugoslavia. Right?

    The problem is that SFRY (Communist Yugoslavia) treated Bosniak-Muslims as an artificially privileged “nation” with the Croat Tito promoting them on the backside of Serbs since at first they were literally acknowledged as Serbs of the Muslim faith, then Tito turned “Muslim” into an ethnic-national category. The term “Bosniak” was implemented for Bosnian Muslims in 1993 literally as a PR stunt for Western audiences by Izetbegovich to pretend that there’s nothing seriously Islamist or Islamic among Bosnian Muslims.

    The even bigger problem is that it was the Bosnian Muslims that started the Bosnian War (which is really just 1 war in the 4 Defensive Fatherland Wars that the Serb nation had to fight from 1991-2000) with clear incitement by the USA and support from Croats and Germany to do so. The overwhelming majority of English language historiography about the Yugoslav Wars is a bunch of complete lies, half truths and lies by omission.

    Alija Izetbegovich reneged on a pre-agreed secession of Bosnia and Herzegovina from Yugoslavia (Carrington-Cutiliero Peace agreement) because US ambassador Warren Zimmerman promised him an Islamic State (this is obvious if you research enough no matter how much apologists try and obfuscate this) though the USA was apprehensive to provide direct military support until 1995.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_plans_proposed_before_and_during_the_Bosnian_War#Carrington%E2%80%93Cutileiro_plan

    Seriously, CNN blatantly lied about the Sarajevo attack on a Serb wedding procession by Muslims, it falsely swapped the roles (a complete Orwellian spin). The first larger massacre of the Bosnian War, the Sijekovac massacre of Serbs in Posavina by join Croat-Muslim forces, simply could not be distorted in such an Orwellian manner so it was ignored altogether and like a very large and lost list of crimes against Serbs in the 20th century, a conspiracy of silence to pretend it never happened exists. That’s only the tip of the iceberg for the whole narrative of “Serbs bad”, “Serb aggression and genocide” crowd of cancerous Slovenian, Croat, Bosniak-Muslim, Albanian, Liberal, Islamist and Judeo-Zionist criminal hypocrisy and conspiracy against the Serb nation …

  163. @Korenchkin

    we’re not in any direct conflict with their interests (key words here being “at the moment”)

    I simply can’t shake off the feeling that Turkey wants to project military force into the Balkans in the future.

    After all, if they can project military force into Libya, why not into Bosnia and Herzegovina or Kosovo?

    Although obviously, there’s no reason for Serbs to go out of their way to pick a fight when they don’t need to.

  164. Meena says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    The Mohammedan Slave Trade
    The Journal of Negro History
    Vol. 13, No. 4 (Oct., 1928), pp. 478-491 (14 pages)–
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/2713844?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3A0012f62703413d9a337b23641470e187&seq=6#page_scan_tab_contents

    Public slave market in Milan Genoa Pisa and Verona were visited by Russians, Tartars, Tueton,Slaves Greeks and Bosnian. Muslms sold slave to Christians and Christians sold to Moslems .The Genoses obatined permission from Michel Paleoque Constantinople 13 13th century to ship slaves through Bosphorus –

    Eastern Emperors made alliance with Turk in the war of successions .
    They sold the inhabitants of Macedonia and Greece to Turks when the treasury became empty as a reward for the military aid
    .
    Later Turks made independent slave raids .

    Warring Christian lords of Northern Italy and Southern France made similar arrangements with Moslems brigands of Spain traded the local inhabitants to slavery for military aids .

    Frankish monks used profit by engaging into castration young children eunuchs and sell them to the Moors .

  165. Meena says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    11th century saw revival of piracy in Mediterranean mainly as a result of crusade .Even Malta was not spared by the Christian corsairs .

    Maltese corsairs preyed on Turkish and on Moorish commercial ships

    Piracy by Maltese cornuted after even expulsion of Muslim .By 10 th century Maltese shared being the worst of the fraternity of piracy with Sardinian and with Genoese .

    Even the nobles conducted piracy because of the lucrative nature of the bounty and the opportunities of capturing Muslims as slaves .

    By 1371 Maltese pirates were even attacking Christian ships of Genoese .By 15th century Maltese pirates were swooping down on ships of Christian owners from Cyprus Sicily and Rhodes island .

    Wealth was soon so immense and so important to the states ,that countries and Islands started validating the piracy it with seal of approval –issuing letter of marque from 1605 in Malta.

    Corsairs were authorized to hoist Christian Flags (order of St John of Jerusalem) and raid only Muslim ships .

    Maltese continued to raid until the end of the 18th century .

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/25016674?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3A41717da67e21d6810d85c8d624464fa8&seq=18#page_scan_tab_contents

  166. @Anatoly Karlin

    Assuming officer IQ is 15 points above average IQ

    20-30 points

    Average IQ of Marine Corps officer entering The Basic School was 122 in 2014. In 1980 though it was 131. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2015/07/24/understanding-the-steady-and-troubling-decline-in-the-average-intelligence-of-marine-corps-officers/

  167. @Anatoly Karlin

    I believe what anonymous coward means by accusing you of translating “Jewish bullshit”/chutzpah is that he means that you’re writing with the relentless and pathological pro-Muslim bias that Judeo-Zionist elites have against Christians which is why they always relentlessly and pathologically support Muslims against Christians, despite the Israel/Palestine issue.

    Israel running a continuous military supply chain to Azerbaijan during this war against Armenians in real-time is a clear and direct example of the pathological Jewish hatred of Christians and relentless pro-Muslim bias.

    Also note this Jewish “war hero” on Azerbaijan’s side during the first Nagorno-Karabakh war:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Agarunov

    There is a very large amount of examples of this throughout history. The privileging of Jews in the Ottoman Empire to tax farm Christians, Jews being privileged in the Islamic Caliphate to exploit Christians as personal slaves, Jews always defecting from Christian states to Muslims from the first Islamic conquests of the Middle East, infamous welcoming of Muslims into Iberia, opening the gates of Sofia to the Ottomans, etc.

    There is a reason why the Spanish targeted Jews so much during the Reconquista …

    The amusing and tragi-comic thing for Jews is that Islamic religion dictates religious hatred towards Jews as an exceptionally evil and vile form of infidels (are they really wrong though?) hence the quote from Prophet Muhammed himself “O Muslim, O servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”

    https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/fikraforum/view/dealing-with-hate-sermons

    Still, that won’t stop vile Jewish parasites and conspirators like Oliver Kamm to relentlessly shill for Muslims in Bosnia …

    https://www.thejc.com/comment/opinion/dangerous-lies-that-spread-from-auschwitz-to-srebrenica-1.33112

    The especially noteworthy part :

    “During the [Bosnian] war, prominent Jews did their best to urge a change in Western policy. In a speech at the Holocaust Museum in Washington, Elie Wiesel turned to President Clinton and implored him to protect Bosnian civilians [ read – violent Islamists and Jihadists]. After the revelation [read – fabrication] of the Serb camps, three American Jewish groups lobbied for “every necessary step, including the use of force” to stop the atrocities [ read – make an Islamic state in Bosnia using the false pretext of supposedly “exceptionally evil” Serb atrocities] . It was not their fault that their words went unheeded.

    Jews have a particular interest in helping to ensure that the human costs of what followed are accurately recounted. [read – upholding the false “Srebrenica Genocide” narrative to maintain the continued supremacy of Jews and Muslims over Christians]”

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  168. Meena says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    1 T Western Responses to the Current Balkan WarDavid Riesmanpp. 350-358 (9 pages)FROM THE BOOKThis Time We Knew: Western Responses to Genocide in Bosnia Thomas Cushman Stjepan G. Meštrović1996 NYU Press https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qfngn.16

    2 Past as Preface: Civilizational Politics and the ‘Third’ Balkan WarLene Hansen Journal of Peace Research Vol. 37, No. 3 (May, 2000), pp. 345-362 (18 pages)

    3 JOURNAL ARTICLEThe Balkan War’s Shallow, Deadly Root The Wilson Quarterly Vol. 17, No. 3 (Summer, 1993), p. 129 (1 page) by William Plaff
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/45267609

    Serbs after 19th century basically controlled Balkans and felt entitled to an elevated higher privileged position compared to Croatia and Bosnian .They institutionalized later further with more ferocity in post WW2 Yugoslavia. Serbs did not see the writing on the wall after Slovenia left but instead started emphasizing the Serbian supremacy on Croatian and Bosnian

    When Bill Clinton or George Kennan in 1993 were cautioning against getting involved in Serbian attacks on Croatia and on Bosnia ,they had the old ancient 1300 AD in mind , the ancient hatred in their thought , historical narrative from 1900 , the past on mind , not the need to stop Serb from carrying out systematic reengineering of the society in their (Serb) favors .
    Croatia fought back Soon Montenegro left . Bosnian was seen as unwanted muslim !
    Serbs initiated the fight. To some among these authors ,the situation was comparable to the attacks on Christian by Muslim in Nigeria when Nigeria gained independence

    • Disagree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  169. Meena says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Share your agreements with these uneducated rabid religiously oriented ultranationalist authors distorting the facts , you are so fond of citing . Tell him how the southern Europe was castrating their own boys and selling them to Ottoman ,how the brave Knights of Malta was nothing but highly skilled pirates flying Christian flags and how Balkans were run by aristocrat Serbs torturing their own people in pre Ottoman era.

    Tell him how Greeks and Armenian thrived for 200 centuries until 1915 and how they survived 1915 genocides in the cities .

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  170. @Yevardian

    until hopefully international displeasure at Azeri aggression forces a peace

    International displeasure is only meaningful when it translates into action. It is obvious that the US and the EU will limit themselves to raising stink. That won’t stop Azeris. Russia is the only actor who can potentially stop Azeris (Iran won’t do it for numerous reasons). Wily Aliyev chose the timing just right: for a few years Armenian sorosoids managed to do everything possible to make Russia reluctant to take the Armenian side. Now the only solution is some kind of compromise: Azeris get Azerbaijani parts and grant some kind of autonomy to the Armenian parts of current Karabakh under their official jurisdiction. The alternative is prolonged bloody war, which neither side can afford.

    • Replies: @4Dchessmaster
    , @Yevardian
  171. @Meena

    Greeks and Armenian thrived for 200 centuries

    Simple math: 200 centuries means 20,000 years. Are you counting from the last Ice Age? Have to disappoint you: at that time there were no Armenians, Greeks, or Turks. Armenians and Greeks formed as nations ~3,000 years ago, while modern Turks are the product of no more than the last 300 years.

  172. @AnonFromTN

    I would think giving the Soviet era part of Karabakh, along with a small corridor attached to Armenia, the best option for Armenians. The other parts can be reclaimed to Azerbaijan. However, Aliyev has been reluctant to do anything of the sort. He seems to insist that ALL of what is now The Republic of Artsakh should be under Azeri control. Although he promises to treat Armenians respectfully, most of us know better than to trust him.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  173. @Meena

    Serbs after 19th century basically controlled Balkans

    Wrong.

    Kingdom of Yugoslavia and SFRY don’t weren’t dominated by Serbs because Serbs were subverted and sabotaged relentlessly by Croats and Slovenes in both unions (unfortunately the fault of Serbs to a degree), especially in SFRY.

    felt entitled to an elevated higher privileged position compared to Croatia and Bosnian

    This implies that “Croatia and Bosnian” were or are even real things that deserve to exist. They’re nothing more than regional names for provinces in the Balkans that were inhabited by Serbs out of which fake and artificial nations were created that are called Croats and Bosniaks (A combined product of the Habsburgs and Ottomans).

    They institutionalized later further with more ferocity in post WW2 Yugoslavia.

    Wrong.

    The exact opposite happened in SFRY (Communist Yugoslavia).

    AVNOJ borders from the Communist meeting of Croat and Slovene delegated in 1943 in Jajce in Bosnia basically did a Triannon of Serb ethnic lands and territories to create anti-Serb internal borders of SFRY that are current state borders of all “Former Yugoslav” countries in Balkans to screw Serbs over. It’s clear that Tito is an ethnic Croat-Slovene who screwed Serbs over to fulfill Croat and Slovene national interests.

    There are many other examples how SFRY and Tito screwed Serbs over notably including the case of Kosovo and Metohija were policies until Milosevic’s time from 1945-1980 were pursued to deliberately de-Serb Kosovo in several forms (including even bother to change the name Kosovo and Metohija to just Kosovo).

    Serbs did not see the writing on the wall after Slovenia left but instead started emphasizing the Serbian supremacy on Croatian and Bosnian

    In 1991 during the so called “10 day war” Slovenia began a campaign of armed and violent separatism against SFRY. In this campaign the JNA garrisons (in particular on the border with Austria) were attacked and ambushed by “brave” Slovene separatists going at young JNA conscripts from behind their backs and even shooting them from behind. This matters because most of the conscripts were ethnic Serbs. It was the Croat leader of the SFRY Presidency Ante Markovic that ordered reinforcement JNA soldiers to be sent to Slovenia, hence why the JNA experienced such a debacle there.

    JNA was a multi-ethnic army with large numbers of Croats and Bosniaks, hence why it performed so badly (since they all defected and even became leaders and prominent separatists and anti-Serb fighters). Croatia and Slovenia teamed together btw and it was obvious that Croats and Bosniaks were going to jump to steal land from Serbs and SFRY when they were backed by the EU and USA in doing so.

    Croatia fought back Soon Montenegro left

    This is an excellent sign you have no idea what you’re talking about (The common one is someone calling Slobodan Milosevic an evil Serb nationalist aggressor or whatever).

    Croatia seceded with armed and violent separatism from SFRY in 1991 while Montenegro left the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro in 2006. You literally have no sense whatsoever of the timeline of Yugoslavia’s breakup which means you’re literally full of shit when you talk about basically everything else on the subject matter.

    The way you write makes people wonder whether you’re mentally retarded or mentally deformed btw. My average IQ probably falls just by interacting with you.

    Bosnian was seen as unwanted muslim !
    Serbs initiated the fight.

    Wrong.

    Alija Izetbegovich wrote an Islamic Declaration in which he stated that “There can be no peace or coexistence between the Islamic faith and non-Islamic societies and political institutions”.

    “The Islamic government should and can start to take over power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough to be able to overturn not only the existing non-Islamic government, but also to build a new Islamic one.”

    Plus a bunch of other wonderful quotes.

    Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic are Serb heroes that saved Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina from a brutal Islamic onslaught and attack. That’s why they have to be imprisoned by NATO and so relentlessly spat upon and unjustly vilified although they did have certain flaws (Karadzic more so than Mladic).

    No matter how much you, among many others, try and whitewash this or bury it and pretend it never happened, the truth is still there for anyone willing to bother and remotely research it.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1992/08/25/the-muslim-contribution-to-bosnias-war/3ee6aac4-6ea6-490b-8a92-4822519da555/

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180115160418/https://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/20/opinion/l-in-former-yugoslavia-enough-blame-for-all-the-islamic-republic-781492.html

    Btw, the evidence is literally clear how Muslims attacked Serbs in Bosnia from each local region, municipality, town and even in some cases villages throughout 1992 and began the war.

    A detailed and in depth account of how Bosniaks began the war in Visegrad through persecution, terror and then attacks and cleansing of Serbs from 1990-1992. Most infamous of this are Murat Sabanovic’s statement of the Bosniak Patriotic League Paramilitary stating “Leave this unit if you’re not ready to slaughter any and all Serbs”. Also the flooding of the Visegrad damn (ordered by Izetbegovich to Sabanovic) to terrorize Serbs out of the town and municipality and taking Serb hostages in the damn control facility.

    http://dengalnaserben.weebly.com/history-1990-to-1999/1991-bosnia-visegrad

    Birth of an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina in Maglaj by Bosniaks burning the local Serb-Orthodox Church and ethnically cleansing Serbs out of Maglaj:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihtkl6eArC0&ab_channel=%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%99%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B01

    Birth of an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina in Mostar where the Serb Orthodox Church of Mostar was burned by join Muslim-Croat forces with the expulsion of all Serbs from Mostar and its surroundings since Croats and Muslims were a majority there:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaAppuaB7Jc&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%99%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B01

    I’m not going to bother responding any more to someone mentally challenged like you because I don’t have all the time in my life for it (I’ve already wasted too much time imo), but the facts and evidence I’ve presented are quite clear enough for any observers that are honest with themselves and interested in objectivity.

    At any rate, arguing with some mentally deranged and retarded Turko-Muslim online is a massive waste of time when the biggest problems that Serbs face right now are unfortunately internal (the degraded character and state of most of the Serb nation, a massive, large, treacherous and ruinous 5th column, etc) despite the interests of many forces and powers in keeping Serbs down and destroying Serbs as a nation.

  174. barr says:

    1 In 1946 the People’s Republic (from 1963, Socialist Republic) of Bosnia and Herzegovina became one of the constituent republics of the Federal People’s (from 1963,
    . Bosnia and Herzegovina was particularly affected by the abolition of many traditional Muslim
    However, a change of official policy in the 1960s led to the acceptance of “Muslim” as a term denoting a national identity: the phrase “Muslim in the ethnic sense” was used in the 1961 census, and in 1968 the Bosnian Central Committee decreed that “the Muslims are a distinct nation.”
    . In the 1991 census Muslims made up more than two-fifths of the Bosnian population-https://www.britannica.com/event/Bosnian-War

    2 Bosnia’s Serbs, led by a man named Radovan Karadzic and backed by Milosevic, resisted and threatened bloodshed when Bosnia proclaimed its independence in 1992. The Serbs wished to remain part of Yugoslavia and create a nation only for Serbians.- https://borgenproject.org/cause-of-the-bosnian-war/

    3 The war was part of the breakup of Yugoslavia. Following the Slovenian and Croatian secessions from the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1991,
    Political representatives of the Bosnian Serbs boycotted the referendum, and rejected its outcome. Following Bosnia and Herzegovina’s declaration of independence (which gained international recognition) and following the withdrawal of Alija Izetbegović from the previously signed Cutileiro Plan [12] (which proposed a division of Bosnia into ethnic cantons), the Bosnian Serbs, led by Radovan Karadžić and supported by the Serbian government of Slobodan Milošević and the Yugoslav People’s Army (JNA), mobilised their forces inside Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to secure ethnic Serb territory, then war soon spread across the country, accompanied by ethnic cleansing.

    4 After a day and night of heated debate, the Bosnian Serb parliament voted overwhelmingly early Thursday to let the people decide whether to accept peace or to continue Bosnia’s bloody ethnic war.
    The vote was, in effect, a rejection of the UN peace plan already accepted by Bosnia’s Muslims and Croatians.
    Deputies scheduled a referendum for May 15 and 16. Whether that will forestall military intervention by the U.S. and its allies is uncertain.
    Some viewed the assembly’s decision as an act of defiance that may amount to “suicide.”
    The vote was 51-2, with 12 abstentions
    Russian Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev found virtue in ambiguity as he publicly urged the the Serbs to ratify the peace treaty without specifying the consequences if they do not.
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1993-05-06-9305070003-story.html(May 1993)

    5 The original Carrington–Cutileiro peace plan, named for its authors Lord Carrington and Portuguese ambassador José Cutileiro, resulted from the EC Peace Conference held in February 1992 in an attempt to prevent Bosnia-Herzegovina sliding into war. It was also referred to as the Lisbon Agreement (Serbo-Croatian: Lisabonski sporazum). It proposed ethnic power-sharing on all administrative levels and the devolution of central government to local ethnic communities

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  175. @4Dchessmaster

    If I were an Armenian, I would not trust Azeris an inch. If I were an Azeri, I wouldn’t trust Armenians, either. Azeris and Armenians hated each other for centuries. Only heavy-handed Soviet rule kept them both in check. As soon as Soviet grip loosened, even before the USSR was dissolved, Karabakh war (which involved ethnic cleansing of Azeris from areas surrounding Karabakh proper), as well as brutal anti-Armenian pogroms in Sumgait and Baku ensued.

    Thus, Armenians would agree to Karabakh autonomy inside Azerbaijan only if neutral troops protecting them are stationed there on semi-permanent basis. Previous experience in Bosnia and Ruanda shows that troops from any NATO country are totally useless for this purpose. That leaves countries that have no history of betraying civilians they are supposed to protect, such as Russia, China, possibly India, Iran, and Turkey. My guess is, to get the agreement of both sides, an international force would be required. Bug question is, who would participate.

    Both Pashinian and Aliyev accepted Putin’s invitation for talks in Moscow. I wonder what Putin has up his sleeve, and whether he is willing to strongarm them into some kind of compromise.

    We’ll see soon enough.

  176. @barr

    Bosnia’s Serbs, led by a man named Radovan Karadzic and backed by Milosevic

    Wrong.

    Serbs were seriously disunited on many levels. Karadzic and Milosevic strongly disliked each other, to say the least. Milosevic is on record literally calling Bosnian Serbs “shit” and saying “I can’t stand them”. Milosevic once slapped Ratko Mladic in front of UN “peacekeepers” and told him to “shut the fuck up”.

    Milosevic even put sanctions on Republika Srpska and cucked the Serbs of Krajina and Bosnia for the sake of “Muh international community” despite their crippling sanctions on FRY and hostile actions against the Serb nation.

    It’s clear that Milosevic was a retarded cuck and that Serbs suffered seriously from national disunity meaning that only people who don’t care about facts can believe in retarded “Serb aggression and genocide on Bosnia” narratives.

    resisted and threatened bloodshed when Bosnia proclaimed its independence in 1992.

    Stop pretending this happened magically out of nowhere. Again, Alija Izetbegovic’s Islamic aggression was literally coming from a mile away while Croats where already moving HOS and HV military units into Herzegovina and Posavina to attack and terrorize ethnic Serbs together (with a notably large number of Muslim HOS members) from the start of 1992.

    Alija Izetbegovic bided his time until he got Warren Zimmerman’s support by forming up armed paramilitary Muslim groups from his SDA Islamist party.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Berets_(Bosnian_paramilitary)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swans_(special_forces)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotic_League_(Bosnia_and_Herzegovina)

    Such groups are clearly formed to attack Serbs and commit armed and violent separatism against the JNA and SFRY.

    No one had to be a genius to predict that “there would be bloodshed”.

    the Bosnian Serbs, led by Radovan Karadžić and supported by the Serbian government of Slobodan Milošević and the Yugoslav People’s Army (JNA), mobilized their forces inside Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to secure ethnic Serb territory, then war soon spread across the country, accompanied by ethnic cleansing.

    Wrong.

    The JNA withdrew from Bosnia where it experienced a debacle for the 3rd time after Slovenia and Krajina-Slavonia from Croat and Bosniak armed and violent separatists. Especially infamous are Bosniak-Muslim paramilitary bands ambushing columns of JNA troops retreating from Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Tuzla column and Volunteer Street of Sarajevo atrocities against Serb conscripts.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Yugoslav_People%27s_Army_column_incident_in_Sarajevo

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Yugoslav_People%27s_Army_column_incident_in_Tuzla

    These were not incidents, but Muslims deliberately attacking pre-agreed peaceful withdrawals of columns of Serb JNA troops retreating from Bosnia to murder and torture them in cold blood because that’s what their Islamism teaches them to do to infidels …

    The JNA was withdrawn from Bosnia and Herzegovina by Milosevic under pressure by “the international community”. True, the JNA did leave most of its equipment to the VRS to continue the defense of the Serb nation in Bosnia, but that was the least that could be done and little more was done by Milosevic besides that, unfortunately.

    After a day and night of heated debate, the Bosnian Serb parliament voted overwhelmingly early Thursday to let the people decide whether to accept peace or to continue Bosnia’s bloody ethnic war.
    The vote was, in effect, a rejection of the UN peace plan already accepted by Bosnia’s Muslims and Croatians.

    I assume this refers to the Vance-Owen Peace Plan which Serbs rejected?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_plans_proposed_before_and_during_the_Bosnian_War#Vance%E2%80%93Owen_Peace_Plan

    First version of the Vance-Owen plan, which would have established 10 provinces
    Bosniak province
    Croat province
    Serb province
    Sarajevo district
    Dayton Agreement border

    Rejecting this is clearly in hindsight a good move by Serbs as the current borders of Republika Srpska from the Dayton Peace Treaty are much better than the ones contained in that plan.

    Russian Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev found virtue in ambiguity as he publicly urged the the Serbs to ratify the peace treaty

    Andrei Kozyrev is a man who stated that “Russia has no national interests”, meaning that he had no interest in championing Russian, let alone Serb, interests which makes his opinions worthless. The pathetic state of Russia and Serbia in the 1990’s is something rather well known, hence Andrei Kozyrev.

    The original Carrington–Cutileiro peace plan … It proposed ethnic power-sharing on all administrative levels and the devolution of central government to local ethnic communities

    The fact that Alija Izetbegovich and the Bosniak-Muslim side rejected this agreement tells you a lot about them and the fact that they were the ones that really started the war Bosnian War with the backing of the USA.

    Still, I think this is enough for today and it seems like Turko-Muslim Unz commenters are either retarded and unhinged or just a bunch of bots run from some troll farm somewhere given how wierdly they spam random shit without seriously even trying to engage or segment their thoughts, although I wouldn’t be surprised if you guys are legit people …

    • Replies: @Meena
    , @AltanBakshi
  177. EldnahYm says:
    @Meena

    French colonialism ensured a permanent stop to North African slave raiding. Every single French atrocity in north Africa was good, and anyone who disagrees is a cuck.

    • Replies: @Meena
  178. Blade says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Expansionism: British Empire expanded much more than Ottoman or Russian. Would you blame that on Turks?

    Theirs was a different kind, they never considered colonies as their own country unlike Russians. It was a purely extractive expansion.

    Authoritarianism: today’s Russia is more democratic than self-proclaimed “democracies” of the West.

    Debatable; democracy isn’t necessarily listening others’ opinions any smart government does that regardless of the way of government, but that aside, a democratic leader can still be authoritarian.

    I don’t blame Turks or anyone else, these are just observations.

  179. Blade says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I don’t know Hakan or any Twitter bots. Why don’t you try answering the question that was asked, there are other people on the thread wondering the answer as well, come on do us a favor.

  180. Meena says:
    @EldnahYm

    Piracy in Mediterranean or later in Indian ocean or in Atlantic was European in origin . Britsih while allowing Drake to loot Spanish ships and cargoes in and around new world , nonetheless put an end to the piracy of the Knights of Malta.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  181. Meena says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Serbian ethnic pride and hatred did not allow a solution and progress to a multi ethnic country when one was possible. It thought that it can fight its way . It could have won through the atrocities of it’s militia if west did not intervene. Rest are hand wringing, blame game and entitlement based on something that happened in 14 the century .

  182. Dmitry says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    that you’re writing with the relentless and pathological pro-Muslim

    Karlin is unlikely to be Jewish and his views are pro-Armenian, and he said that Russia should intervene to save the Armenians if they start to lose territory. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/russias-options-in-artsakh-war

    In the USA it might be different. In Russian media, the non-Armenian people I noticed which support Armenia in this conflict are some of the most infamous “annoying media Jews” – i.e. Solovyov, Echo of Moscow, liberals etc.

    Well, Zhirinovsky at least has a kind of neutrality on this topic: he wants to invade Armenia and Azerbaijan at the same time (and Belarus as well).

    Karlin is the first non-liberal non-Jewish media person I saw, who supports Armenia.

    Karlin’s pro-Armenian views are against 92% of Russian populations’ opinion. Karlin is somewhere in the 8% of pro-Armenian people in Russia.

    Karlin’s positions would fall somewhere in the 3% +2% who think there is some obligation to help Armenia from Russia for geopolitical reasons (although the rational reason is because of the Turkish intervention in the region, which is Karlin’s view).

    Also note this Jewish “war hero” on Azerbaijan’s side during the first Nagorno-Karabakh war:

    President Aliyev’s family are actually married to Jews, in Russia. His grandchildren are part-Jews, living in Moscow.

    The ruling elite of Azerbaijan are atheist nationalists, who originated from the KGB and Soviet power structures. The rulers live half-way between Baku and Moscow. The presidents’ children are mostly living in Moscow, they invest their money in some of the largest construction companies.

    This KGB peoples’ connection to Islam is less religious, than in the sphere of “culture-nationalism”. Their attitude to Islam has characteristics more like a Japanese belief in Shintoism. They also love to promote multireligion and secularism, to the extent it supports their power and alliances.

    you’re writing with the relentless and pathological pro-Muslim bias that Judeo-Zionist elites have against Christians

    Aside from Jews’ position, it’s difficult to give a religious-ideological dimension to such a nationalist and tribal conflict: i.e. Russian Orthodox Church’s branch in Baku are Azeri nationalists.

  183. Meena says:

    Stories States Tell: Identity, Narrative, and Human Rights in the Balkans
    Jelena Subotić

    Slavic Review
    Vol. 72, No. 2 (SUMMER 2013), pp. 306-326

    p 312 Serbia portrayed in 1993 the fight with Croatia as continuation of fight from 1525 AD

    p 313 – killing of non-Serbs by Serbs in early days of Nazi occupation

    p 314 Serbian attempt to rehabilitate the fascist Chetnik leader DD Mihajlovik who was sentenced to death in 1946 ,later in 21 st century

    p314 Serbian monarch signing pact with Hitler

    p 315 on 11 th July 1995 R Mladick announcing to the serbs that time had come to take revenge (against 14 th century’s Turk ) through attacks on Muslim on this Holy Day

  184. Dmitry says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    A stereotype of intellectuals (i.e. “higher IQ” or more academic people), is doing things like walking in front of autobuses*, and general incompetent relationship to physical reality, and susceptibility to physical accidents. .

    So I’m not sure that if we had only “high IQ” officers from MIT and Harvard University, this would guarantee greater situational awareness and less grouping of personnel under drones, by itself.

    I agree that the Armenia’s leadership seems to be both incompetent in its geopolitical and military preparation, and that this can reflect the country’s lower development level (and latter can correlate to the IQ measurements and education level).

    Although we can remember that Germany and Japan had wildly incompetent political and military leadership decisions at various times, despite having some of world’s most educated and intellectual populations, and excellent organization and planning in some areas.

    *Well, intellectuals in the clouds when walking in the streets, not always just in cartoons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Barthes#Death

  185. EldnahYm says:
    @Meena

    The vast majority of Barbary pirates were north Africans(obviously). That some British or Dutch pirates taught north Africans about sailing at some point doesn’t change that. British certainly weren’t the ones running Muslim slave markets where captured Europeans were sold. I’ll repeat what I said, French colonialism put a permanent stop to north African slave raiders, and all French atrocities against north Africans were good. In the future I hope French north Africans are subject to violent atrocities. As criminal and terrorist scum, they deserve it.

    • Replies: @Meena
  186. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    I had a classmate in university (in the USA) from the Aliev clan, indeed they are very secular. His nationalism was quite sincere and he had as a teenager been in the protests throwing rocks at Soviet tanks. Ironically while a student he was friends with a couple of Armenians at the school. He had a funny experience when trying to get a driver’s license – the clerk didn’t want to list his race as Caucasian (he could pass for a darker Mexican). He incredulously told her – “if I’m not Caucasian, who is Caucasian?”

    He is now a government official. Very nice guy, like almost all Azeris I have happened to know or interact with. Maybe I’ve had bad luck with Armenians, the ones I’ve come across have often been unpleasant (though not all of them).

    • LOL: JL
    • Replies: @Justiana
  187. Aedib says:

    An Armenian counterattack toward the Iranian border has failed. The southern Azeri offensive toward the proper Armenia is gaining momentum.

    • Thanks: LondonBob
  188. Meena says:
    @EldnahYm

    Piracy was given papal blessing in the decades following Portuguese arrival in India . It was codified by both religious and secular powers . Other royal forces and business communities of India had to pay ransom and money for protection – protection form seizure harassment and enslavement – for sailing to local costal pilgrimage centers, for conducting short distance maritime business between coastal states and between India and Iran , between Sri Lanka and India .
    You can search JSTOR for primary references about Portuguese invention of the sea as the Christian domain in 15 th century

    Once I get the article written by Dr Naylor form university of Montreal on Mediterranean piracy roles of privateers ( piracy essentially ) and role of European in addition to American on Barbary piracy , I will post it

    ( old archives of UNZ might still have it )

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  189. Yevardian says:

    Pashinian is rapidly approaching becoming the most despised Armenian leader in history, there’s now talk on Armenian social media of him losing the war on purpose (the core of his opposition comes from Artsakh, as did the previous PM Sargisyan himself). I’m thinking official recognition should be done at this point, things can’t get much worse at this point, Turkey is already practically intervening, it would at least raise awareness internationally.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AnonFromTN
  190. @Yevardian

    there’s now talk on Armenian social media of him losing the war on purpose (the core of his opposition comes from Artsakh, as did the previous PM Sargisyan himself).

    I wouldn’t put it past him. Sorosoid is sorosoid. Godfather of his ilk Soros was selling out his Jewish compatriots to Nazis.

    • Replies: @Aedib
  191. @Dmitry

    ‘…Although we can remember that Germany and Japan had wildly incompetent political and military leadership decisions at various times, despite having some of world’s most educated and intellectual populations, and excellent organization and planning in some areas.’

    Well, not really. It’s more a matter of the side with the big battalions wins, and that obscures their errors.

    One sees this with the history of the American Civil War, where Grant is ordinarily described as a military genius, although he was often murderously incompetent. In fact, he came damned near losing the war for the North in 1864. It was Sherman who saved the day, by taking Atlanta before the election.

    Ditto for the Second World War. Russia, Britain, and the United States committed some staggering blunders. But they won, so it’s not so obvious.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
  192. Yevardian says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Azeris get Azerbaijani parts and grant some kind of autonomy to the Armenian parts of current Karabakh under their official jurisdiction.

    This was the status-quo during the USSR, Armenians suffered constant petty discrimination and persecution, whilst Azeris were given encouragements and incentives to settle there in large numbers at their expense. Its why the region declared independence in the first place, it would have gone the way of Nakhichevan, with 2000 years of history blown-up and vandalised. And this was still under a nominal ‘Soviet Brotherhood of Peoples’, you can see how Turks behave when given free reign.

    In the end Azerbaijan’s loyalties are firmly with Turkey, whilst Armenia has no real alternatives than Russia. Do you really think all these invited jihadis are going to quietly go home after this? Bordering Dagestan is still barely kept under control, and Georgia is still eager for an opportunity to spite Russia.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Agathoklis
  193. @Yevardian

    I’m thinking official recognition should be done at this point, things can’t get much worse at this point, Turkey is already practically intervening, it would at least raise awareness internationally.

    Armenia should have recognized Artsakh from day one. After all, Turkey recognized Northern Cyprus, and it did not hurt anyone, even though nobody else recognized it. But in fairness, this is the question to previous Armenian leadership, not to current sorosoids.

  194. @Dmitry

    ‘…The ruling elite of Azerbaijan are atheist nationalists, who originated from the KGB and Soviet power structures. The rulers live half-way between Baku and Moscow. The presidents’ children are mostly living in Moscow, they invest their money in some of the largest construction companies…’

    All that suggests that it might not be so great if they lost their war with Armenia, since that would discredit secular rule in Azerbaijan, possibly leading to an Islamic fundamentalist revolution.

    That in turn points toward a series of unappealing scenarios. Certainly from the point of view of Russia, there’s much to be said for a modest Azeri success, cementing the authority of the current ruling elite.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  195. @Yevardian

    This was the status-quo during the USSR, Armenians suffered constant petty discrimination and persecution, whilst Azeris were given encouragements and incentives to settle there in large numbers at their expense.

    That’s why I think this is not possible w/o a significant outside military force present in the region on a semi-permanent basis. The reality is, neither side can win, and neither side can afford a protracted bloody war. Neither side can afford to lose face, either. So, some compromise is inevitable. If Aliyev has any brains (which appears to be the case), he must understand that Erdogan uses Azerbaijan for his purposes and does not give a hoot about Azeris, who will be the first to suffer from imported jihadi bandits.

  196. Yevardian says:
    @Meena

    p 313 – killing of non-Serbs by Serbs in early days of Nazi occupation

    The Germans brought out the ‘best’ in people in whatever country they occupied, there is nothing particular to Yugoslavia here.

    p314 Serbian monarch signing pact with Hitler

    Yugoslavia was not even obliged to join any war in that ‘pact’, it was simply realistic given the international situation at that time. Even Bulgaria refused to send any troops to the Eastern Front and used the war only to take land disputed with Yugoslavia. Anyway, the treaty so disgusted the Serbian population that Peter II was overthrown by the army in a coup with overwhelming popular support.

    Turkey was flirting with Germany during the entire war, they only ‘joined’ the allies during the very final days of the war without firing a shot, entirely so they claim protection from the US when the USSR made noises about the return of Armenian territories lost in WW1.

  197. EldnahYm says:
    @Meena

    You’re changing the subject. No one said anything about India, not even you. You were talking about alleged European genocides in Africa, starting in north Africa.

    • Replies: @Meena
  198. Dmitry says:
    @Colin Wright

    Azerbaijan’s elite were born from the KGB, and people who were trained in the KGB are usually good at strategy.

    We can see careful thinking in Azerbaijan’s friendships – they show how to do multi-vector external policy, despite their limited options (as dictators, they can never be popular in “civilized” Western countries – so they focused mainly on building relations with “uncivilized” non-Western countries).

    Azerbaijan didn’t waste too much hopes on the West, and instead invest in building relations to countries like Russia, Turkey, Israel, Belarus, Georgia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Pakistan.

    Azerbaijan focus on friendship to non-Western political regimes, which don’t care that they are undemocratic. (Although they did make unsuccessful effort to become friends with Trump in 2016).

    Another area Azerbaijan’s multivector strategy, is using of religious politics in the cynical style.

    They invited Evangelical Christian churches to establish in Azerbaijan, so American Evangelicals do not choose sides against them.

    Azerbaijan also bring in the Russian Orthodox Church to build new temples in Azerbaijan, and their branches have now become Azeri nationalists.

    Patriarch Kirill visits Azerbaijan once a year and there are speeches where he talks about his love for Azerbaijan.

    Then they bring on American Evangelical Christian leaders to build churches there. And they charm the small Catholics there.

    Azerbaijan also focuses a lot on building alliance with the Mountain Jews. (Who are wealthy and powerful in Moscow).

    So Mountain Jews have their own mountain town in Azerbaijan.

    Mountain Jews live in some barren city forgotten by god. But now Azerbaijan brings in investment from Mountain Jews in Moscow. They build Mountain Jews’ museum, etc.

    Going through Mountain Jews, to create an alliance to Israel, is one of the most successful of their religious strategies, as they secure SEAD drones from Israel. (Azerbaijan would not be able to buy these from Western countries – Israel was the key in the lock).

    The blindspot of Azerbaijan, is in its negative attitude to Mormons. This is probably legacy of the KGB attitudes to Mormons – in Soviet times, Mormons were believed to be connected to the American security services.

    Armenia should probably focus on charming to the Mormons, in response.

    • Thanks: Colin Wright, AP
    • Replies: @Justiana
  199. Aedib says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I know you despise Pashinian, but, I think, is not a wise option just to let Transcaucasia become a backyard of Turkey full of moderate headchoppers. Russia should covertly send some Wagnerites and Cossack and Orthodox “volunteers” jus to bleed the “rebels” and brake the Azeri-Turk offensive.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  200. @Yevardian

    ‘Turkey was flirting with Germany during the entire war, they only ‘joined’ the allies during the very final days of the war without firing a shot, entirely so they claim protection from the US when the USSR made noises about the return of Armenian territories lost in WW1.’

    Turkey was flirting with everybody during the entire war; they actually played their hand brilliantly.

    …what always amused me was the story of their ‘trade deals.’

    Basically, to get what you wanted out of Turkey, you had to buy something. So in the very early going, when Britain was trying to get Turkey on side, they had to buy some huge quantity of Turkish tobacco. It was all very expensive, as the British didn’t smoke Turkish tobacco. They smoke Virginia tobacco.

    So they had no use for all this Turkish tobacco at all. But they still had to buy it.

    Then around about 1943 or so, Germany wanted more Chromium. Well, fine — but you have to buy our hazelnut crop as well…

    Mountains and mountains of hazelnuts. One gets this vision of the Wehrmacht — subsisting for the last two years of the war entirely on Nutella.

    And they got sixty brand-new Fw-190 A-8’s out of Germany. Well, Britain and the US got wind of that, and found it upsetting.

    So Turkey had to get rid of the sixty brand-new Fw-190 A-8’s. But of course, as we see to this day, if there’s anything minor powers lust after, it’s the real good fighters of the day. Turkey’s got those sixty brand-new Fw-190 A-8’s, and she doesn’t want to turn loose.

    So she buried them. Of course, as time passed, their existence could only become a greater embarrassment. You were taking arms from the Nazis?

    Gasp.

    Supposedly (at least, I like to think so) the sixty Fw-190 A-8’s are still there, wrapped in a great deal of grease paper or something, hidden under the ground, waiting for der Tag

  201. @Yevardian

    Turks and their cousins never ever honour agreements. A state and its people would be insane to think otherwise.

    “Do you really think all these invited jihadis are going to quietly go home after this? Bordering Dagestan is still barely kept under control, and Georgia is still eager for an opportunity to spite Russia.”

    This is one of the main reasons, not some brotherly love for Armenians, why Russian inaction and nationalist Russian Turk-worship is so mystifying.

    • Replies: @Blade
  202. @Aedib

    That seems to make too much sense to anyone but a Russian nationalist. Better to think about cheap holidays in Antalya.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Blade
  203. @Dmitry

    A stereotype of intellectuals (i.e. “higher IQ” or more academic people), is doing things like walking in front of autobuses*, and general incompetent relationship to physical reality, and susceptibility to physical accidents. .

    Of course, this is stereotype that originates from few anecdotes and persists because it gives dummies easy feeling of superiority (hurr durr, these eggheads so dum)

    In reality, life is an IQ test, and high IQ scores correlate with all kind of positive results in life, including avoidance of accidents.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4170759/

    Intelligence in early adulthood and subsequent risk of unintentional injury over two decades: cohort study of 1,109,475 Swedish men

    Background
    There is growing evidence of an inverse association between intelligence (IQ) and unintentional injuries.

    Methods
    Analyses are based on a cohort of 1,109,475 Swedish men with IQ measured in early adulthood. Men were followed-up for an average 24 years and hospital admissions for unintentional injury were recorded.

    Results
    198,133 (17.9%) men had at least one hospital admission for any unintentional injury during follow-up. The most common cause of unintentional injury was falling, followed by road accidents, poisoning, fire and drowning. In addition, 14,637 (1.3%) men had at least one admission for complications of medical care. After adjusting for confounding variables, lower IQ scores were associated with an elevated risk of any unintentional injury (Hazard ratio (95% confidence interval) per standard deviation decrease in IQ: 1.15 (1.14, 1.15)), and of cause-specific injuries other than drowning (poisoning (1.53 (1.49, 1.57)), fire (1.36 (1.31, 1.41)), road traffic accidents (1.25 (1.23, 1.26)), medical complications (1.20 (1.18, 1.22)), and falling (1.17 (1.16, 1.18)). These gradients were stepwise across the full IQ range.

    Conclusions
    Low IQ scores in early adulthood were associated with a subsequently increased risk of unintentional injury.

  204. Dmitry says:
    @Agathoklis

    What is the relation to “Russian nationalists”?

    It’s not necessarily good that brown nationalities might seem to expect that white people need to intervene in their conflicts with other brown nationalities.

    Intervention by more powerful nationalities, could reduce the inbuilt natural peacemaking incentives between the parties, or results in freezing of a conflict, and lengthening conflicts artificially.

    There was misperception of negative incentives in Armenia’s case, when they rejected Lavrov’s phased peace plan for Nagorno Karabakh, apparently expecting that Russia will rescue them if they reject it.

    Despite that there is a real cynical self-interest of Russia’s government for frozen conflict, weapons sales, – there cannot be denied that has been a genuine and fair attempt (and subsidization of millions of dollars of conferences) to make a peace settlement, in which Armenia will withdraw in a phased approach.

    Retrospectively, it’s becoming clear that Lavrov’s plan for Armenia to withdraw in some kind of phased, coordinated steps, in exchange for peace with Azerbaijan, could have saved thousands of lives, saved Erdogan from the satisfaction of victory and drone testing, and the end result will be the same.

    From the Russian perspective, it is refusal to accept Lavrov’s plan which has provided the Turks the opportunity for their military intrusion into the area.

    This was in April.

    And a response of Pashinyan’s administration in April had been

    Lavrov Calls for ‘Liberating’ Lands, Yerevan Says ‘No Concessions’
    April 23, 2020

    Mnatsakanyan said that Lavrov, in his remarks, had made references to myriad documents “including documents which were discussed during the last two years. These approaches came up in 2014 and 2016 and they are unacceptable for the Armenian sides.”

    “There have not been and will not be concessions. The Armenian sides will never exercise that approach,” added Mnatsakanyan.

    https://armenianweekly.com/2020/04/23/lavrov-calls-for-liberating-lands-yerevan-says-no-concessions/

    The latter response could have seemed rational if Pashinyan has an excellent military strategy to defend the territory. But apparently now – there are going to be thousands of dead young people, with the end result not better than would have been achieved through accepting of Lavrov’s plan.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  205. Justiana says:
    @AP

    Never met Azeri. Only Armenians and ALL of them have this aura of superiority. Similar to Americans. And all them a filthy rich over here. I supprised that Armenia is poor country.

  206. Justiana says:
    @Dmitry

    Mormon= CIA. Come on. Everybody knows this. Even Mormons humble brag about it.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @AP
  207. Blade says:
    @Agathoklis

    I love how Greeks think they are being smart trying to stake Turks and Russians against each other. I mean, how obvious you can be? Don’t worry for Russians, I am sure they are smarter than Greeks. Besides, no one takes Greeks seriously because everyone is so used to you claiming Turks are a threat to China, Russia, India, Arabistan, Europe, USA and Nauru simultaneously. 😀

  208. LondonBob says:
    @Colin Wright

    JFC Fuller has a very different take on Grant, frankly I agree, Grant was much Lee’s superior and probably Grant is the finest general the US has produced, Jackson never really took command of whole armies.

    True, Japan and Germany started wars they could only lose, relied on the element of surprise and a quick win that didn’t happen.

  209. Blade says:
    @Agathoklis

    You are confusing Turkey for your country. Turkey honors every single agreement and does everything according to book. Which is why you hear all this noise from Europe but no real action, because they also know it, but they have to pretend to be angry so that you Greeks shut up about Turks once in a while. You are like the crazy ex-girl friend who constantly shit talks her ex boy friend and doesn’t leave him alone. Meanwhile we are sitting here, playing with our mustaches and drinking coffee while watching the beautiful sunset over Bosporus in this wonderful former Roman capital named Istanbul (aka Nova Roma).

    • LOL: Yevardian
    • Replies: @Sher Singh
    , @Sher Singh
  210. @Blade

    Mustaches are against Islam why don’t you come back to Dharma?

    https://images.app.goo.gl/k6X1EKmN8s8MqVxd9

  211. @Sher Singh

    Hey Sikh Bhai, I once saw a long time ago, nice painting of Sikhs protecting Brahmins against Muslims, but sadly I cant find it from google, maybe you could find it?

    Have you been in Rewalsar or Tso Pema? Nice place, been there many times. So nice that we Sikhs and Buddhists have common holy places. Many Buddhists even believe that Guru Nanak is a emanation or reincarnation of the Buddha Padmasambhava himself. Truly without you Sikhs Aryavarta would have been lost to Mlecchas!

    I dont understand how there are still Sikhs in Pakistan, how they survive!?

  212. AP says:
    @Justiana

    Mormons do missionary work and take it seriously; they put real effort into learning local customs and languages. Once on vacation in Utah, in some small desert town I met a Mormon who spoke quite decent Russian. He had done missionary work in the former USSR. Mormons also don’t drink or use drugs and are very conservative and patriotic in a 1950s sort of way. Polite and friendly, they are also well-armed and know their way with weapons. Altogether, these attributes probably make them ideal CIA operatives, though I’d suspect they let others do dirty work.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  213. @Dmitry

    Of course they are Azeri nationalists, just like Patriarch of Cpole keeps Ataturks portrait in his office and prays for the success of Turkish army in Syria or Kurdistan. In such countries if you dont toe the party line, theres soon mob coming for your head, literally! Plus couple Pogroms! Such naivety from you, or is it something else?

    Hmm Iran has good or at least amicable working relations with all its neighbours, except Azerbaijan, a strong and secular Azerbaijan can be a way to break the ethno-religious unity of the Iran. I dont believe that it succeeds.

    • Replies: @128
    , @Dmitry
  214. @Dmitry

    If Russian nationalist are happy to have Syrian jihadists a mere 150km from Dagestan, then whatever makes them happy.

  215. 128 says:
    @AltanBakshi

    Well Armenia also has 1000 muslims with their blue mosque in the middle of Yerevan and nobody is closing them up last time I heard.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  216. @128

    In such countries like Turkey and Azerbaijan, I did not mean Armenia.

  217. @AltanBakshi

    Pakistan probably isn’t anywhere near as bad for minorities as some people (mostly Hindu nationalist types) claim.

    This kind of makes sense, as Pakistan is overwhelmingly Muslim and there is institutionalised Islamic supremacy, so Muslims have peace of mind in that Pakistan is their country and the law won’t allow minorities to gain disproportionate control, hence they don’t feel the need to persecute/humiliate the minorities that much.

    Pakistan also opened a corridor to the birthplace of the founder of the Sikh religion a while ago, for Indian Sikh pilgrims.

    India-Pakistan corridor set to open for Sikh pilgrims

    although I think there is probably an ulterior motive to this rather than pure goodwill.

    Kartarpur and Khalistan: Why Pakistan Army has been so eager to open corridor with India

    Perhaps Sher Singh could comment on the state of play in regards to Khalistan?

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  218. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Kalmyk white guard refugees build a Buddhist temple in Belgrade in the 1929. Imagine any Muslim country allowing building of pagan temple in the 20s! In Europe it was the first Buddhist temple outside Russia. A true sign of magnanimity and tolerance of the Serbian people.

    Many Kalmyks worked in the brickworks owned by the industrialist Miloš Jaćimović (1858-1940) and soon he became a major benefactor of their community. In 1928 he donated the lot on which the temple was built and also provided the building materials, bricks and roof tiles. That same year, Kalmyks were granted permission to build the temple, given to them from both the political and Serbian Orthodox Church authorities. King Alexander I of Yugoslavia also helped them financially

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgrade_pagoda

    Catholic Church of 20s or 30s, or even 50s would never have given such permission, and Islamic authorities still do not, even though Persian Gulf countries have sizable Buddhist minorities…


    There was even Kalmyk language school in Belgrade.

    http://www.thetravelclub.org/articles/traveloscope/762-kalmyk-community-belgrade

    Seems that Orthodox Christians are totally different from the rest of the Abrahamic gang?

    • Thanks: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @AP
    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
  219. 128 says:

    And I think those muslims are actually azeris.

  220. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I have understood that large Shia and Ahmadiyya minorities live in constant fear and terror there, and that for Hindus its even worse. There still is over two million Hindus there, many are practically bonded laborers/slaves of Muslim landholders.

    • Agree: AP, Vishnugupta
  221. Meena says:
    @EldnahYm

    European piracy started in Mediterranean
    got bolder and acquired strong religious colors between the sea lane from India to Portugal .
    It really got out of control in the water adjoining America .

    India was another victim
    That’s it .
    But you don’t get the entire picture of European piracy sometimes described as privateering and you don’t understand the philosophy until you see the documents used by Portuguese Spanish and Papal authorities to sanctify the burgeoning theft looting and the violence
    Just search JSTOR
    you will find what’s happening in Indian Ocean in 15 9r 16th century .

    • Troll: EldnahYm
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  222. Meena says:
    @Yevardian

    “ Turkey was flirting with Germany during the entire war,”
    Innuendo, confusing ones desires with other’s prerogative and biased conjectures start this way
    Then it becomes received divine truth .

    Just like that book by Morris
    His facts don’t support the headings of the books
    but the conjectures , self – anointed roles of hedging the motives , obsession with repeated attempts to ignore the destructive treasonous inimical foreign and domestic forces and delegitimization of the normal resultant Turkish responses do converge to one thing – blaming the atrocity on Ottoman

  223. @Meena

    Dutchmen and especially Englishmen were notorious pirates in the Early Modern Era, but they mostly targeted Spanish, French and Mughal shipping. Theres a difference between privateering and piracy. Privateering was is just one form of warfare and happens only when there is a state of war between countries.

    Barbary states on the other hand lived from the trafficking and selling of human beings, disgusting and not anyway comparable to privateering, which still is loathsome, but not as much. But there are so many lies in your ramblings, Christian monks through centuries gathered funds so that they could buy slaves and give them their freedom, although its true that some kings of the Early Middle Ages sold people to Muslim slavetraders, but such things were not committed by Christian monks.

    Why we need to search JSTOR, you are yourself perfectly capable to cite your sources.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Meena
    , @barr
  224. AP says:
    @AltanBakshi

    In Europe it was the first Buddhist temple outside Russia.

    An earlier one was opened in Berlin:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Buddhistische_Haus

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  225. Meena says:
    @AltanBakshi

    Privateering had many facets . Privateering soon was adopted to conceal illegal seizure of non combatants and above all seizures of the much less powerful and of the non commercial local boats who were engaged into local trades across African coast ( East and north ) and western Indian coasts with the blessings of the European royals who then took a cut from the ‘ business model ‘

  226. @AP

    Debatable, in my opinion it was not a Buddhist temple, monastery, Vihara or Datsan etc, in the 20s and 30s, there were no monastics, it was more like a hobby project for the enthusiastic amateurs.
    Practically just a house for German lay Buddhists, in the 1957 it became a real temple with monks.

    “Das „Buddhistische Haus“ war gedacht als ein Platz für die innere Läuterung, soweit man dies erreichen kann in einem Kompromiss zwischen dem Leben als buddhistischem Mönch und den westlichen Bedingungen. Es konnte kein Kloster sein, denn die materiellen und spirituellen Voraussetzungen waren nicht ausreichend. Dafür war es eine Mittelwegs-Lösung zwischen einem Kloster und einem Aufenthaltsort für Laien. Die „Fünf Regeln“ waren die Mindestanforderung an das Verhalten der hier Wohnenden.”

    Yep it definitely was not a temple. Buddhist temple or monastery always needs Buddhist monks or priests. Although there are ruins, still if someone would build a “church” and there would be no priests, presbyters or preachers, it would not be a church, at least in my opinion. Hmm still debatable…
    There were German Buddhist monks in the early 20th Century, but they all stayed rest of their lives in Asia, mostly in Sri Lanka.

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Thanks: AP
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  227. @AltanBakshi

    But yes very open minded of Germans, still Berlin was probably more atheist and secular than the rest of the Germany in the 20s, Berlin was heavily socialist after all.

  228. @Meena

    Yevardian is right. Turkey spent a lot of time flirting with Germany during the war as well as providing them with raw materials. When The Soviets won WW2, the Turkish foreign minister sent a congratulatory letter to Stalin detailing his commitment to working with him. Stalin in response sent him a one line letter in response, LOL. Even Stalin, who tried to appease the Turks in 1921, was sick to death of them by 1945. This is why he made claims to eastern Turkey and invited 150,000 Armenians to resettle in the Soviet Union. I’m sure he, just like nearly every leader who has dealt with Turkey in the last 100 years, regretted appeasing them early on.

  229. @AltanBakshi

    Kalmyk white guard refugees build a Buddhist temple in Belgrade in the 1929.

    I actually read about this a few months ago but I’ve probably lost track of the link or didn’t bother saving it. Kingdom of Yugoslavia accepted a significant amount and proportion of White Russian refugees fleeing from the Communist victory and Soviet Union. Most famous was Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel among many others, including Buddhist Kalmyks.

    Your images unfortunately didn’t load, btw.

    A true sign of magnanimity and tolerance of the Serbian people.

    Yes, Serbs are unfortunately overwhlemingly too tolerant, naive and dumb for their own good …

    This is reflected in the current treatment of all of Serbia’s current ethnic minorities. Most of them are fine (about 28 minorities in total I believe) and some even genuinely loyal with a positive contribution overall, but Albanians, Bosniaks, Croats and Roma (most, but not all members of these groups) are actively hostile or a serious harm to Serbia and Serbs, yet they are entitled to ridiculously generous rights, subsidies, privileges and etc. Of course, trying to change that could in some cases potentially entail a pretext for US and EU sanctions against Serbs, or worse …

    Seems that Orthodox Christians are totally different from the rest of the Abrahamic gang?

    Definitely.

    Orthodox Christians are the original Christians anyway. All the others are literally heretics one way or another, although Coptic/Apostolic Christians are the least heretical while Catholics, Christian Zionists/Evangelicals and some other bizarre sects are the most heretical imo.

    I could state much at length about this subject matter but I don’t feel expert enough to go into religious faith in depth, and my practice of Serb Orthodox Christian principles is not perfect (a post-modern, liberal and so on environment does a lot to weaken religious faith), so I would do well to work on improving it instead of lecturing others about their supposed commitment or devotion to religious worship and faith.

  230. @Meena

    blaming the atrocity on Ottoman

    happened in 14 the century

    how Balkans were run by aristocrat Serbs torturing their own people in pre Ottoman era.

    Tell him how Greeks and Armenian thrived for 200 centuries until 1915 and how they survived 1915 genocides in the cities .

    Bosnian was seen as unwanted muslim !

    Accept the responsibility of bringing the responses of Ottoman upon yourself .

    we can understand the preying on Ottoman

    LOL.

    Thanks for teaching me that anyone who refers to the Ottoman Empire in 2nd person compared to the usual 3rd person in English language such as “on Ottoman” or “of Ottoman” has below 90 IQ and is mentally retarded.

    Still, I find it interesting that Turks and Serbs commonly seem to have no true friends/brothers in the world besides ethnic-racial-religious kin (or conceived as such) Azeris and Russians respectively. Maybe one of the few things I will probably actually ever understand about Turks.

    • Replies: @A.R.
    , @Meena
  231. @Dmitry

    Karlin is unlikely to be Jewish

    I know lol. I was a bit tired and restless when I was writing yesterday.

    My point was that anonymous coward was accusing Karlin of buying into Jewish/Zionist pro-Muslim narratives in conflicts of Muslims against Christians. Karlin did that to a degree, but obviously the accusation is a bit exaggerated because Karlin writes with a considerable degree of attention to objective facts and when giving his opinion usually does so rather clearly.

    Btw, are you actually Jewish as is claimed?

    In the USA it might be different.

    It absolutely is.

    The extent to which Jews have power in the USA is literally an open secret.

    At any rate, as a goyim I’d like to ideally not have to even think about whether Jews exist or what they’re up to and plotting, but the reality is that they’ve done Serbs very dirty in the 1990’s (still not over) and other unpleasant things to Serbs in previous centuries.

    What happens in the world on a global scale also doesn’t make sense without understanding the role and power of Jews/Zionists, so no matter how much suppression of open discussion is used on this subject matter, it will always attract overwhelming amounts of universal curiosity, interest and discussion. To a degree I’m not entirely sure what to think about Jews/Zionists, but my opinion is mostly inclined in a negative manner besides a few small positive exceptions.

    President Aliyev’s family are actually married to Jews, in Russia. His grandchildren are part-Jews, living in Moscow.

    Well you’re just confirming what I was getting at with my comment.

    Aside from Jews’ position, it’s difficult to give a religious-ideological dimension to such a nationalist and tribal conflict

    For Armenians and Azeris their ethnicity and nationality definitely matters more in their mutual enmity (although religion still should not be discounted), but for many outside observers the religious dimension is very important and noteworthy.

    My point was about Jews in particular, and for them religion and Zionism is obviously extremely important (aside a few hardcore Liberal Jews).

    • Replies: @another anon
    , @Dmitry
  232. @AP

    ‘…Mormons also don’t drink or use drugs and are very conservative and patriotic in a 1950s sort of way…’

    An amusing aspect of that is that the early Mormon settlements were probably one of the more successful realizations of socialism ever seen. The Mormon ethos can be seen as still being very socialist. You can have what’s yours — unless the community needs it.

    ‘From each according to his ability; to each according to his need.’ Now where did I read that?

    Oh yeah — Red Star over China.

  233. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Karlin is unlikely to be Jewish

    But we must be still wary. There is no such thing as not enough vigilance, comrades!

  234. @Colin Wright

    in many areas the middle and upper classes tended to convert to Islam and become ‘Turks.’

    I wonder how much that happened. Some Hungarians, whether elite or not, did convert, but not many, and being a “törökös magyar” (Turkifying Hungarian) was an absolute shame and they were shunned as much as possible. Unlike Turkish prisoners, these Hungarians, when captured, could expect to be killed in short order. It is a certainty that most of the elite (including all of the nobility) fled Turkish rule. I’m also pretty sure that a lot of Serbs etc. fled to Hungary earlier. Probably a lot of them assimilated there. So maybe what happened was that a lot of the elite fled from the Turks rather than with them.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  235. @Meena

    Stories States Tell: Identity, Narrative, and Human Rights in the Balkans
    Jelena Subotić

    Jelena Subotic.

    LMAO.

    This is literally some fat Liberal NGO bitch that is only from Serbia but only an ethnic Serb in name only and is in reality a piece of worthless biomass, Yugoslavian, political Croat or Crypto-Croat.

    What she says is actually worth less than your retarded “on Ottoman” takes (at least they’re funny) and she’s even more harmful to Serbs than 1,000 retards like yourself imo.

    There are still a few important things to debunk in your comment though:

    p 312 Serbia portrayed in 1993 the fight with Croatia as continuation of fight from 1525 AD

    So history being relevant and important is a bad thing?

    You most probably wouldn’t be commenting at all on Unz Review if you didn’t think history was very important and strongly dictates the present world (like something that happened yesterday), same for nearly every single Unz commenter.

    p 313 – killing of non-Serbs by Serbs in early days of Nazi occupation

    More Orwellian spinning of history, truth and basic facts.

    German occupation brought this to Serbs:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Serbs_in_the_Independent_State_of_Croatia

    In fact, just yesterday was the 69th anniversary of German occupation soldiers executing thousands of Serbs civilians by fulfilling their threat of “retaliation” for Serb resistance in the Chetnik and Partisan movements along the lines of 100 dead Serbs for every dead German soldier, and 50 dead Serbs for every wounded German soldier:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kragujevac_massacre

    Independent State of Croatia (ISC) literally had race laws that dictated extermination, assimilation/Croatization and/or expulsion for all ethnic Serbs meaning that regardless of what they did, their destruction was guaranteed. Bosniaks also massively collaborated with the ISC and Ustashe in slaughtering Serbs by the thousands and even had their own SS divisions doing the same since they were unhappy with Croats claiming them as Croats of the Muslim faith. Albanians meanwhile burned several Serb villages on Kosovo and expelled tens of thousands of Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija. Albanians and Bosniaks even grouped together to do the same and similar to Serbs in Raska/Sandzak and Novi Pazar but this didn’t go further than 1941 because Chetniks effectively fought back.

    In the face of such an onslaught, it’s harder to imagine anything more dystopian and gaslighting worthy than accusing Serbs of “killing non-Serbs” and outsiders conferring morally damning judgement in such circumstances.

    p 314 Serbian attempt to rehabilitate the fascist Chetnik leader DD Mihajlovik who was sentenced to death in 1946 ,later in 21 st century

    The more I see pathological and relentless anti-Serbs attack Chetniks and Draza Mihailovich, the more I like them and feel inspired by some of my Chetnik ancestors (some of them were actually somewhat close to the great man Draza himself but I won’t state anything else about that obviously) compared to my tragically disappointing Communist Partisan ancestors.

    In some ways Milan Nedic was actually a greater Serb hero than Draza because he saved the lives of more ethnic Serbs than Draza, but that’s not worth getting into with people like you.

    p314 Serbian monarch signing pact with Hitler

    This is just a ridiculous no context statement.

    The reality is that nearly all WW2 “Serb Axis collaboration” (often falsely made up) narrative that’s being un-ironically pushed as part of anti-Serb historical revision was a result of overwhelming coercion and German military force being used against Serbs, not much different from a subject like “Serb Ottoman collaboration” or “Serb NATO collaboration”.

    p 315 on 11 th July 1995 R Mladick announcing to the serbs that time had come to take revenge (against 14 th century’s Turk ) through attacks on Muslim on this Holy Day

    Ah yes, the evil and big bad Ratko Mladic!

    How dare he liberate Srebrenica (!?), an ancient Serb town well renowned for Silver mining from the Nemanjic dynasty period when it used to be 100% Serb for many centuries until the Ottoman-Muslim invasions.

    Also lol, Ratko Mladic literally gave a direct and personal guarantee to confirmed Muslim civilians (mostly women and children) that they would be unharmed and they’re even seen smiling and waving at him.

    Mladic interacting with Muslim civilians with English translation (a bit imperfect):

    Mladic and Muslim civilians on buses parting. Again, they’re smiling at him and wishing him all the best and him doing so in return as well:

    There’s even video footage of Mladic handing chocolate to a Muslim child and patting it with the child smiling at him in the same time period although I can’t find it from a quick search at this time.

    This importantly makes it obvious that Mladic clearly did not order the execution of Muslim POW’s in the surroundings of Srebrenica since it would be a massive prestige blow and dishonoring of his public promises and statements. A part of the real mystery of how and why Srebrenica happened is who actually ordered it on the Serb side (since the whole incident was done in collusion with Clinton and the Muslim side).

    As for attacking on Holy Days, Muslims are infamous for doing that to Serbs throughout the centuries and especially in 1993 on 7th January (Serb Orthodox Christmas according to the Gregorian Calendar) Naser Oric’s Bosniak-Muslim terrorist band burst into the Serb village of Kravica and slaughtered every single living thing (mostly with cold blunt weapons and I don’t think they even spared the village’s animals):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kravica_attack_(1993)

    Never mind the Wikipedia text trying to whitewash this horrific Muslim crime against Serbs (although it puts Srebrenica in the appropriate context), of course …

    Still, although attacking infidels on religious holidays is a Muslim habit, Serbs did learn and adopt some of it throughout the centuries.

    There is much that Serbs can learn from Islamists, most especially their understanding and interpretation of Jews and Zionists in my opinion …

    • Replies: @barr
    , @barr
  236. barr says:
    @AltanBakshi

    The birth of Military -Industrial Complex America’s First Terror Wa r By RT Naylor Professor at Mcgill university Canada

    Counterpunch May 1-15,2007 Vol 14, NO. 9

    CONTROL OF THE SEAS: THE HISTORICAL EXEGESIS OF THE PORTUGUESE “CARTAZ”
    Proceedings of the Indian History Congress
    Vol. 72, PART-I (2011), pp. 476-484

    Ruby Maloni

  237. barr says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    .”The reality is that nearly all WW2 “Serb Axis collaboration” (often falsely made up) narrative that’s being un-ironically pushed as part of anti-Serb historical revision was a result of overwhelming coercion and German military force being used against Serbs, not much different from a subject like “Serb Ottoman collaboration” or “Serb NATO collaboration”.”

    May be it is now ‘largerr Serb -smaller Serb” coalition under religious pressure. May be “Old Serb – New Serb Coalition ” to gain some sympathy and legitimacy.

    Rest is waiting for Wikipedia revision and false citation .

    Did Serb offer a way out of impasse ? Yes that was total surrender of Croatia Bosnia and Montenegro

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  238. @Yevardian

    The Germans brought out the ‘best’ in people in whatever country they occupied

    True, although this seems like you’re buying into Serbs bad narratives.

    That wouldn’t be surprising coming from someone who thinks that Kosovo belongs to Albanians.

    At least you get the part correct about the pact between Paul and Hitler.

  239. Even if Karlin was partially jewish, why would that matter? Dmitry is partially jewish and is one of the better posters here. AaronB is jewish, and despite the hate he gets here, I always found him to more original/willing to take an unconventional position than most folks here. People have such a reductivist and myopic PoV.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  240. barr says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    1 As president of Yugoslavia, Milosevic presides over the two republics of Montenegro and the larger Serbia, where the Kosovo province is located. The death of Yugoslavia’s Communist leader Marshal Tito in 1980 offered an opportunity to Milosevic, a rising politician who became leader of Serbia’s Communist Party in 1986. Milosevic capitalized on Serbian resentment toward ethnic Albanians. When Milosevic became Serbian president in 1989, he stripped Kosovo’s autonomy and later forced Albanians from their state jobs, shut down their media and suppressed the Albanian language. He also dismantled the legislative assembly after ethnic Albanian legislators declared independence. Croatia, Slovenia, Macedonia and Bosnia quit the Yugoslavia federation between 1991 and 1992, leaving Serbia and Montenegro to form the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The breakup allowed Milosevic to appoint his cronies to the federal presidency and defense ministry, and he effectively became ruler of the new Yugoslavia. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/balkans/who.htm

    2 In 1989, Slobodan MILOSEVIC became president of the Republic of Serbia and his ultranationalist calls for Serbian domination led to the violent breakup of Yugoslavia along ethnic lines. In 1991, Croatia, Slovenia, and Macedonia declared independence, followed by Bosnia in 1992. The remaining republics of Serbia and Montenegro declared a new Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) in April 1992 and under MILOSEVIC’s leadership, Serbia led various military campaigns to unite ethnic Serbs in neighboring republics into a “Greater Serbia.” These actions ultimately failed and, after international intervention, led to the signing of the Dayton Peace Accords in 1995.—- https://www.indexmundi.com/factbook/compare/macedonia.serbia

    • Disagree: TheTotallyAnonymous
  241. The New York Times – the house organ of the US deep state – has published a completely one-sided pro-Azeri article yesterday. There seems to be remarkably little lack of support for Armenia in the élite papers in the Western discourse. Why?

    My guess: Armenia’s attempt to get a bit closer to the West regardless, the fact is that Russia has more influence there. Azerbaijan is extremely close to Israel, and it’s said that they’d allow Israeli jets to bomb Iran in any future war. I think this is a key issue to understanding the refusal to support Armenia. We can dispense any propaganda about justice or fairness. Jihadists in Syria were vigorously supported, despite that most of the public hates these types (which is why the media never told the truth).

    When it comes to the actual war, it seems like the armenoids are getting steamrolled. I personally don’t have a side I’m cheering on. I’m guessing Putin has a gentleman’s agreement with Aliyev that NK is basically his if he can take it but Armenia proper is a no-go.

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @barr
  242. @barr

    Did Serb offer a way out of impasse ? Yes that was total surrender of Croatia Bosnia and Montenegro

    Wrong.

    Serbs were more than willing to let Croatia leave, but without RSK (Republic of Serb Krajina). Tudjman and Croats knew this, and that they could’ve negotiated secession if they were willing to compromise on land but they started a war as Tudjman himself explained because they wanted all the land.

    May be it is now ‘largerr Serb -smaller Serb” coalition under religious pressure. May be “Old Serb – New Serb Coalition ” to gain some sympathy and legitimacy.

    There’s actually some truth here.

    Relentless religious (and ethnic) pressure from Muslims, Jews, Liberals and some Christian heretics explains why it’s actually so difficult to be a Serb in this world (throughout most of history as well) and why many Serbs struggle, crack, break, fold and capitulate under the overwhelming pressure turning into former Serbs or assimilating and being exterminated out of being Serbs.

    I’m going to try my best not to respond to some retarded bullshit in comment 247 but I’ll see whether it’s worth even replying to some other time.

    • Replies: @barr
  243. @reiner Tor

    ‘…Probably a lot of them assimilated there. So maybe what happened was that a lot of the elite fled from the Turks rather than with them…’

    Maybe…but the Turks only ruled Hungary for a hundred years or so. Serbia was part of the Ottoman Empire for more like five hundred years.

    So by the nineteenth century, who had or had not fled back in the fourteenth century was all water under the bridge. A whole new society had grown up — and in that society, the higher echelons would have been disproportionately ‘Turks’ — upper and middle class Serbs who had found it expedient to convert over the centuries.

    As ‘Turks,’ they left when the Turks did — and what was left behind was not a complete society.

    An analogy to Hungary versus Serbia could be drawn from India versus Mexico.

    The British left India after a hundred-plus years of dominance — and although India was certainly affected, it had some ideas concerning what it had been before, and could reconstruct that identity to some degree — see Bollywood!

    But Mexico? The Spanish came in the sixteenth century, and in many important senses, are still there today. However much there may be an independent Mexico, it can never seriously look back to the Aztecs. They’re simply an irrelevance.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
  244. Dmitry says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    you actually Jewish as is claimed?

    I have verified Jewish roots to the third generation. I have “Jewish roots”; I never claimed to be Jewish (this in real life either), as it would be stealing real Jewish peoples’ identity to claim to be Jewish.

    I mean maybe I should start to publish Yiddish soup recipes in Jewish cookery books like Elizabeth Warren does with her Cherokee roots ( https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2146092/Elizabeth-Warren-claimed-Native-American-heritage-1984-cookbook-called-Pow-Wow-Chow.html ).

    But I can claim of having small but authentic Jewish roots (the parents of the mother of a grandfather ‘ had documentation really written in Hebrew language; we have such authentic old Jewish documentation in our family).

    President Aliyev’s family are actually married to Jews, in Russia. His grandchildren are part-Jews, living in Moscow.

    just confirming what I was getting at with my comment

    To my perception, it shows where Azerbaijan’s presidential family’s real priorities are – it’s difficult to see some kind of Islamists, when his grandchildren are secular, multinational Russian citizens – i.e. typical of elite in Moscow. Not sure how they could escape to Istanbul anytime soon either. The presidents grandchildren will probably live in Russia most of their life.

    I’m not saying Azerbaijan leadership are “good people” – Azerbaijan is clearly a highly cynical dictatorship.

    When I look at videos of Azerbaijan – it looks usually in my superficial perception civilized and less Islamist than London or Stockholm

    On the other hand, some Azeri immigrants that settle in Russia, have become Islamist terrorists. ISIS is in cities like Ekaterinburg (in Russia) mainly because of a formal and informal open borders immigration policy.

    3 terrorists who were killed in this operation in April, one was an Azeri immigrant, one is Russian (convert to Islam) and a man with Russian name although Central Asian appearance.

    • Thanks: TheTotallyAnonymous
  245. @Colin Wright

    I mostly agree with you, except with your Mexico analogy, Mexicans dont have any surviving institutions from Aztec times, but Serbs have their church and faith, which kept their historical memory alive. Their saints, kings, monks and churches, they have a continuous tradition from the times before the Osman came, a connection with their forefathers. Mexicans dont have anything similar. Maybe Albanians and Bosniaks would be a better comparison with the Mexicans? Mexican history is not familiar to me, but there were many different tribes or nations there, than just the Aztecs? Mayans and the rest.

    Hungary is a very different case from Serbia, westernmost so called Royal Hungary, Upper Hungary and Eastern Hungary/Transylvania and Partium, were never under a direct Ottoman rule, so Hungarian nobles could easily continue their national traditions in those lands.

    Isnt it a strange coincidence that almost at the same time when Christians gained Iberian peninsula, they lost the Anatolia?

  246. Dmitry says:
    @AltanBakshi

    Russian priests, employed in the Russian Orthodox Church, appointed by Patriarch Kirill who visits them every year, and is friends with the presidential family in Azerbaijan. They are not going to be pogromed even if they didn’t say that.

    Of course, they promote an Azerbaijan nationalist position, as they want to increase their influence and popularity in Azerbaijan. On the other hand, Aliyev promotes Russian Orthodox Church and invites them to build the church, because he wants to increase his influence and relationship to the Russian government.

    We here saw just Azerbaijan’s typical multivector external policy, using some mask of religious diplomacy here.

  247. barr says:
    @Thulean Friend

    There is either total silence or misinformation Kind of a overage which doesn’t do justice to the people stuck (on both sides ) A political solution involving land and population transfer or a new republic of NK with full participation of both sides and return of refugees should form the foundation Any lingering grievances will give rise to future war and future involvement of foreign countries including of covert Israeli support even to the opposite side for right price .

    BBC CNN or FOX dont talk about this war -I guess its less much less serious than Borat’s movie or of Iran’s sending e mail to Democrats asking them to vote for Trump ( so that Trump can impose more sanctions . Apparently Iranian is asking for more pain . CNN and FOX believe Iranian are extreme masochistic! WTF? Possible, but most likely these platforms are pure shit hole who has no respect for human life or dignity or respect for truth or any sense of responsibility )

    Some lawmakers have urged restraint of Turkey . It is like them asking Iran to halt enrichment of fossil while flying to Dimona for reorienting the US supplied missile to Syria and Iran.

  248. @AltanBakshi

    ‘I mostly agree with you, except with your Mexico analogy…’

    Yeah. I agree it’s not perfect. I was merely trying to illustrate how different the case of Hungary would be from that of Serbia.

  249. @AltanBakshi

    “Mexicans dont have any surviving institutions from Aztec times,”
    The Catholic Church remains 😉

  250. LG says:

    The azerbaijanis, the turks, and their terrorist allies have been at war with Armenia/Artsakh for nearly one month. What major gains do they have to show? How many billions in eqiupment have they lost? What about the fact that azerbaijan is now known to have paid jihadists to fight for its cause, this being confirmed by French, Russian, and American government sources. How does it look on the international stage for a country to sponsor terrorism? Outside of the USA and some of its allies, its a big no no.
    Karlin’s coverage has been the same tropes over and over again. For Armenia this war is existential, for their enemies it is not. This is all one needs to ponder to realize why Armenia will win the war.

    • Replies: @4Dchessmaster
  251. LG says:
    @Duke of Qin

    I can not imagine you are this much of an ignorant chink to post what you just did. Troll much?

  252. LG says:
    @AnonFromTN

    LOL you still at it with your anti-Armenian comments?
    Russia provided Armenia with $2 billion worth of armaments’ in the course of the past few weeks. Perhaps the Kremlin knows something that you sitting in Tennessee do not. Just a quick thought.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  253. @LG

    I agree, but there is some nuance to this. The advantages that the Azeris have over the Armenians, listed by Karlin, are correct. Armenians are good fighters, but unfortunately Azerbaijan’s effective use of drones, massive media propaganda campaign, support from Turkey, the world being distracted by political and economic turmoil are all playing to Azerbaijan’s advantage. Azeris are definitely better prepared than they were in 1994. However, I agree with you that us Armenians will not simply quit because of minor setbacks, and nowhere in this article is it claimed that Azerbaijan will win. This article only lists what could POSSIBLY put Azeris on a path to victory, not that they will win.

  254. The Armenians need a new, more secure homeland.

    Expel the Turks from Europe, and give the Armenians a new homeland in East Thrace with Constantinople as the capital.

    • Troll: 4Dchessmaster
  255. Meena says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    About 50 or less in IQ that I don’t use , is enough to make you feel a genius .

  256. @LG

    Perhaps the Kremlin knows something that you sitting in Tennessee do not.

    I sure hope so. What’s more, they apparently know something that 92% of the people living in Russia do not know, either. As Russia does not have “seventeen intelligence agencies”, like some pompous clowns, they have a chance to know the reality, rather than get their own lies coming back to them.

    BTW, the game is changing. The Empire appears to be taking the side of Azeris (judging by what the US ambassador to NATO says and what NYT is publishing). Thus, it is in Russian best interest to support the other side.

  257. @AltanBakshi

    It is called ‘Āryāvarta’ because the Āryas are born there again and again, and the Barbarians, though attacking it, do not remain there long.

    https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/manusmriti-with-the-commentary-of-medhatithi/d/doc145598.html

    Singhs survive or thrive due to the Maryada, without it they are mere men;

    [MORE]

  258. Why is everyone getting excited about those videos of drone strikes. How do you know that most of those targets are not dummies and fakes purposely placed in the open to draw Azeri drones and waste them? So those claims of Armenian losses could be meaningless. Maybe it is the Turks who are stupid and not the Armenians. And how do you know most of the Armenian hardware isn’t safely inside caves and tunnels dug in the mountains? As if they’d tell you all.

  259. @Thulean Friend

    Even if Karlin was partially jewish, why would that matter? Dmitry is partially jewish and is one of the better posters here. AaronB is jewish, and despite the hate he gets here, I always found him to more original/willing to take an unconventional position than most folks here. People have such a reductivist and myopic PoV.

    It’s fun to highlight the complete reversal of your old comments and your new 120% improved Soylent Blue-and-Yellow comments:

    Rothman is only in favor of classical liberalism when he is in the minority in the diaspora.

    Don’t expect him to advocate classical liberalism for Israel, which would necessarily mean that Israel moves from an ethnocracy to a genuine democracy where there is no discrimination on religious or ethnic grounds on immigration policy.

    Why are so few people pointing out the hypocrisy of these Jews in the mainstream press?

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/invade-the-world-invite-the-world-conquer-the-us/#comment-2236203

    Don’t be a coward, Steve. That is like using “globalists”. Mounk is driven by the same desire as many other “liberal” diaspora Jews: ethnic interest.

    Fundamentally, he wants to live in a society where he is not the outsider, because that goes against his ethnic interest. In a society where everyone is the outsider is far more preferable to his ethnic interests. At the same time, he wants Israel to remain ethnically Jewish.

    It is true that there are also white liberals who hold these beliefs, but you should always
    look at people in their home country. The amount of open borders liberal Jews in Israel is a tiny fringe, a true reflection of their genuine liberalism. In the diaspora, they don’t identify with the native majority, so their politics will naturally shift in a direction to maximise suppression of native interests.

    White people is the only group which have large amounts of these types of beliefs among the native population when we are in a majority. Looking at other groups – in their own home country – you don’t see this at all. Certainly not among Jews. Diaspora “liberal” Jews would be ardent nationalists in Israel. The mistake white people make is that many assume other peoples are as invested in political principles as they are. Whereas most people are just interested in their own ethnic interests and those will shift depending upon if you’re in the majority or in the minority.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-people-vs-democracy/#comment-2245236

    Jewish media nepotism is a good example of why you shouldn’t buy Jordan Peterson’s bullshit theory of why Jewish overrepresentation is solely due to IQ differences. As Kevin MacDonald has pointed out, there will be 7 whites for every 1 jew at IQ over 130.

    INB4 “well smaller IQ differences turn out very large at the extreme ends”. With all due respect to elite journalists, you don’t need a 160 IQ to be a newspaper reporter, so that argument is BS, too.

    Jewish overrepresentation, whether in the media or in hollywood or in elite Ivy league admissions, is largely due to nepotism and not talent. Period.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/bullseye/#comment-2390877

  260. Meena says:
    @Yevardian

    Listen moron , it was British and French who destroyed Ottoman once they felt they could ,promised freedom to Turk, Armenian remaining Greek ( who were planning greater Greece ) and the Arabs Then they reneged to further their own nests whose effect are still being felt in ME

  261. barr says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    From 1992 NYTimes—–The State Department official who managed the United States’ day-to-day policy toward the Balkans said today that he resigned in protest over what he called the Bush Administration’s “ineffective” and “counterproductive” response to the fighting in the former Yugoslavia.
    “What’s going on in Bosnia is genocide, and the U.S. had a moral obligation to stop it,” the former official, George D. Kenney, said in a telephone interview. “The Administration is not dealing seriously with the Yugoslav crisis. The things we’ve tried up to now haven’t worked and we need to try some different approaches.”
    Mr. Kenney resigned from the Foreign Service on Tuesday
    Mr. Kenney said that “the risks of a Vietnam quagmire in Yugoslavia are vastly overblown” and that the United States and its Western allies should arm the poorly equipped Bosnians so they can reclaim territory lost to Serbian attacks. He also recommended air strikes against Serbian positions.
    “In the short run, it would increase the violence, but in the long run it would decrease the violence,” Mr. Kenney said. “It’s more destabilizing to allow the Bosnians to be murdered.” Limits of U.S. Involvement

    President Bush has pledged American air support, if requested, to help deliver relief supplies to Bosnia and Herzegovina, but he has repeatedly ruled out punitive air strikes against Serbian targets or sending American ground forces to the region.
    Mr. Kenney predicted that an international conference under way in London to discuss the Yugoslav crisis would most likely fail without strong pressure against the Serbs, including the threat of military action.
    “After 12 years of the same kind of Republican administrations, the senior levels of the career officers have been so well trained in political obedience that no one wants to rock the boat,” said Mr. Kenney, who said he last registered as a Republican.
    There were indications that other career Foreign Service officers, including some middle-level officials above him, sympathized with Mr. Kenney. Indications of Support
    “A lot of people share many of his views, particularly on the lack of action in response to this growing crisis,” one State Department official said. “But many people also feel that it is naive to place the blame on career State Department officers who are carrying out the President’s policy.”
    The State Department issued a short statement today in response to Mr. Kenney’s resignation, but did not address his policy criticism.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/27/world/us-aide-who-quit-calls-yugoslav-policy-ineffective.html

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  262. @barr

    George Kenny is famous/infamous for doing a complete turnaround on his views about the Bosnian War and the breakup of Yugoslavia into a pro-Serb attitude after his resignation (as a result of his visit to the ground that he made by an invitation from UN official Satish Nambiar).

    Try better next time.

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