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Serbia Is Down But Not Out
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Interesting results of some recent polling:

  • 72% Serbs think Russia’s influence in Serbia is positive (+11% relatove to 2017), while 7% think it’s bad.
  • 87% think China’s influence is positive (+30%).
  • 32% think US influence in Serbia is good, while 59% think it’s bad.
  • Of greater relevance, perhaps: 24% think EU influence is good, whereas 68% think it’s bad.
  • 40% consider Russia their best friend, followed by 16% for China.
  • Greatest enemies of Serbia: Croatia (30%), Albania (20%), and the US (13%); The US, England, Germany, France, and NATO combined would add up to 27%.
  • Only a fifth believe that Serbia should harmonize its foreign policy with Brussels.
  • 51% oppose Serbia’s EU membership, while 46% support it.
  • 52% would support Serbian military intervention in Kosovo in the event of a conflict and 47% claim they would personally participate in it.
  • However, 69% were against intervention in Montenegro and 58% in Bosnia & Herzegovina in an analogous scenario.

I gather that young Serbs are more nationalist than their more Titoist/”multinational friendship” parents, and while they have lost considerable numbers of people to emigration to the EU, the drain from Kosovo and Albania (as well as BIH and Croatia) has been much worse.

Things might get interesting when Camp Bondsteel goes.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Opinion Poll, Serbia 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. Hating the US has been a favourite lie for Europeans throughout my lifetime

    Yet our individual and national actions always belie our words. US cultural products could not be more popular. Our dislike is totally fake and a risible cope for our enthrallment

    • Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Yes, they certainly have no problem immigrating to America either.

    , @Europe Europa
    @Not Only Wrathful

    They hate Britain more these days. France/the EU are currently blocking the ports and shipments of food and medicine to Britain right now, because of a supposedly mutated COVID strain that has been found in the UK, that has also been found in many other European countries, yet they are only imposing these restrictions on the UK. It makes no sense other than that they just hate this country and want to make a point about it.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    , @Joe Paluka
    @Not Only Wrathful

    European leftists love American leftists, as you could see the love ins that accompanied Obama wherever he went in Europe. European Nationalists don't dislike the average American person, they just don't like the US government meddling in European affairs. Nato should've been abolished 30 years ago so Europe could build up it's own defence. After Trump cleans up American problems in the next year or so, he can set about disengaging the US from Nato and let the Europeans set up their own defence strategies.

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Not Only Wrathful

    The anti-americanism of European liberals is essentially the hatred of the rest of America that American 'coastal elites' have, except with even more ignorance of what America is actually like. Imagine if all you knew of America came from watching the most extremist libtard propaganda.

    I remember reading about what North Koreans say about South Korea (that it is full of crime, that people are dying in the streets for lack of healthcare, that most children cannot afford to go to school etc.) and it is mostly the same as what Europeans believe about America.

    Replies: @Supply and Demand

    , @Korenchkin
    @Not Only Wrathful

    I don't see how me liking Clint Eastwood movies also means I like my people getting ethnically cleansed

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    , @Bill
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Right. You can't both hate your dealer and be addicted to crack. Because logic.

    Replies: @Showmethereal

    , @Showmethereal
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Western Europe is different than Central and Eastern Europe. Europe has never thought in one accord. As a European you should know that. And do you count Russia as a European nation..? Btw - i love association football (soccer to Americans) and am somewhat fond of cricket. I even like a few British comedies... But that doesnt mean i like British foreign policy nor its history.

    So I dont see what the problem would be for Serbians to have similar thoughts toward the US.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful

    , @Eugene Norman
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Anti Europeanism is more common on the American right and left. The former are just openly anti European, the latter hide it behind anti Eurocentric ideologies. I couldn’t name an anti American politician though. In fact Europe is dominated by American ideologies, increasingly of the left. The AngloSphere being the worst.

    I assume Serbia became pro Chinese during the NATO war against them when China gave aid to Serbia and NATO bombed the Chinese embassy.

    The rest of nationalist Europe should take note.

  3. And yet despite Serbian Russophilia, every time they go to the polls, they elect pro-U.S./pro-E.U./pro-NATO governments (most recently this spring, when SNS won an outright majority because the opposition couldn’t be bothered to participate).

    Revealed preference. Serbs don’t actually care enough to act on their Russophilia. Getting rid of their government would be priority one on this front because Vučić certainly isn’t going to be leading any tank columns into Pristina.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Matt Forney

    Russo-Serbian relations improved greatly under Vučić
    Most obviously there were zero Russo-Serbian military drills before him

    Serbia cannot cut itself off form the EU for the same reason Mexico can't cut itself off from the US, only the imbalance is even worse here

    It was under his rule that the attitude towards the EU, China and Russia shifted

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    , @Denis
    @Matt Forney

    AK: No personal insults.

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Matt Forney


    And yet despite Serbian Russophilia, every time they go to the polls, they elect pro-U.S./pro-E.U./pro-NATO governments (most recently this spring, when SNS won an outright majority because the opposition couldn’t be bothered to participate).

     

    Take a look at a map and see whether Tashkent (capital of Uzbekistan) or Belgrade is closer to Moscow. You'd actually be surprised to know that it's Tashkent ...

    With such a reality in mind (also the fact that Serbia is literally encircled by NATO), the current situation is not surprising. Note: Serbia actually cancelled military exercises with both Russia and NATO for 6 months because NATO/USA/EU threatened serious pressure (economic sanctions at least definitely) against Republika Srpska/Serbia/Serbs this year, because Serbia was supposed to do military exercises with Russia and Belarus at "Slavic Shield" in Belarus, right when they wanted to overthrow Lukashenko (in this way, they felt like Serbia was poking their eyes with its "military neutrality"). NATO/USA also has military exercises planned for 2021 called "Defender Europe" where obviously the primary target is Russia, but this year it's different in that NATO will deliberately emphasize doing larger and more intense military exercises in literally every country neighboring Serbia ...

    Also, if Vucic/SNS were truly pro-EU/pro-NATO/pro-USA why isn't Serbia fully "integrated" into EU/NATO structures even though it's "part of Europe"?

    It's one thing for Vucic to state "Serbia is on the European path" while in reality he is doing his absolute best to maximize Serbia's relationship and closeness to Russia and China. After all, this farce is increasingly coming to an end soon anyway (this bitch partly reacted like this because Serbia voted for Crimea being part of Russia in the recent UN General Assembly vote):

    https://twitter.com/ViolavonCramon/status/1334919419974348805

    Much more importantly, all the pathological Serb haters of the USA (Jews and Liberals) have gathered together to publicly declare their US imperial goals to "finish Serbs off" once Biden comes to power (Amazingly enough it involves getting the criminal Jew bitch Madeleine Albright to replace Richard Grenell as special "mediator" between Serbia and Kosovo, way to get Serbia to recognize Kosovo lol).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdpPWnHLFKQ&list=UUXCjgHrMgPEqDvCmPc9BbJA&ab_channel=HouseForeignAffairsCommittee

    Believe I mentioned it previously, but the most dangerous thing coming for Serbs is in Bosnia-Herzegovina where the Jew Daniel Serwer has stated his plans to end the existence of Republika Srpska (RS) by stationing hundreds of US military soldiers in Brcko (cuck Milosevic surrendered this in Dayton, although perhaps he may not have had any better options during Dayton negotiations in hindsight) where RS could be extinguished following sanctions and splitting RS in half (Brcko is effectively a vital corridor between East and West Republika Srpska), or the USA resorts to raw and overwhelming military force like in 1999 against Serbs or Middle East military invasion/occupation. Once Republika Srpska is eliminated and Bosnia is annexed into NATO, Bosnia will become a fully fledged Islamic State and inhospitable shithole for its Serb and Croat populations whose status will be degraded or they will leave/be forced to because they don't want to live under a full fledged Islamic Caliphate/Sharia for Christians/etc. (Islamic SDA party-Bakir Izetbegovic openly declared earlier this year their party plan to centralize Bosnia into 5 unitary sub regions ruled by Muslims from Sarajevo) All of this will pass of course, without obstacles in Western public opinion because "Serbs are bad", "Srebrenica Genocide", "Bosnian Genocide" and so on. This will all most probably go down like Austria-Hungary's annexation of Bosnia in 1908 where even though the Empire Serbs were up against was seriously divided and clearly in decline, they simply couldn't do anything about the annexation because it was still too large and powerful compared to Serbs ...

    Could be wrong, but I think things will probably be fine in the end for Serbs in Montenegro (they just came to a sort of modus vivendi in this NATO member state where they'll accept the status quo in exchange for not being annihilated in Montenegro and being able to exist as normally as possible here) and Kosovo and Metohija (there's simply no way to force Serbia to recognize and legitimize the theft of Kosovo and Metohija) because, besides the salivating at the prospect of triumphantly eliminating Republika Srpska and fully annexing Bosnia into NATO, the Balkans is simply too low priority for the upcoming Biden Administration.

    What's interesting and Karlin clearly didn't notice is that Sergei Lavrov just finished a visit to the Balkans region, Republika Srpska, Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia. The reactions to his visit are absolutely hilarious. The fact that Zeljko Komsic (Croat member of Bosnia presidency, but a Muslim puppet) and Sefik Dzaferovic (Muslim member of Bosnia presidency) decided to cancel on meeting with Lavrov (supposedly because Lavrov disrespected Bosnia's institutions LMAO) is going to go down in the history books. In reality, all Lavrov did in his visit was reaffirm and openly call for respect of the peace treaties of the Balkans signed in the 1990's by all sides, mostly made and crafted by the USA itself, that is, the 1995 Treaty of Dayton (ended war in Bosnia) and 1999 Treaty of Kumanovo (ended war in Kosovo). Although this is good news because it shows that Serb interests are becoming a higher priority for the Kremlin, I don't think this will be enough to stave off the sinister plans for the abolition of Republika Srpska by the US military coming in 2021 ...

    The big problem here is that the USA has been relentlessly revising these peace treaties to the detriment of Serbs and in favor of Bosniaks and Albanians ever since they were signed. USA is relentlessly pursuing a strategy of aggressive NATO expansion in the Balkans and artificially making serious efforts to privilege and ensure the triumph of Islam in the Balkans because of Jewish and Liberal ideologues fanatically committed to "Serbs are bad" and "Serbs are evil genocide perpetrators that must be crushed no matter what it takes"/whatever narratives ...


    Vučić certainly isn’t going to be leading any tank columns into Pristina.

     

    Wouldn't be so sure about rejecting this possibility (of course, this means full blown Middle East level war with NATO, so Serbia's only option would be maximum all-or nothing escalation in this scenario). Vucic has publicly promised Serbs on multiple occasions that there won't be another exodus/pogrom/ethnic cleansing of Serbs ever again. It's unimaginable for Serbia to simply stand by and again endure something like the March 2004 pogrom of Serbs on Kosovo-Metohija because back then there was a window of opportunity for the Serbian Army to return to Kosovo, but it was missed because Serbia was weak, corrupt and ruled by traitors back then.

    All in all, Karlin knows what he's on about. Serbia is indeed "Down but not out". And it will definitely stay like this for at least the next few years (just look at how big of a stake and obsession so many different actors have in keeping Serbs down, and destroying Serbs if they could ideally), if not even longer.

    Defend Republika Srpska!

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @Matt Forney

    Tank columns are SO 20th century! The 21st century is all about non-recognition.

    , @Roda
    @Matt Forney

    Dominion has an office in Belgrade, right?
    So, polls, elections, democracy... overrated...
    Vučić was elected same as Biden was.
    Media + Domion = pretty election win

    , @Svevlad
    @Matt Forney

    That's because all parties are pro-US pro-EU (cuckoids), even those that aren't

    The shtick is some "oh woe is me" tier propaganda to make the boomers and toothless old people vote for them while pinning all the neoliberal progressive cuck shit on the opposition

    Don't see the solution without an extremist dictatorship that would whip them in line and violently prosecute all traitors

  4. Well if Russia really cares they will sign a customs union with Serbia and a Schengen agreement.

    • Replies: @Rahan
    @128


    Well if Russia really cares they will sign a customs union with Serbia and a Schengen agreement.
     
    A Shoygu agreement, heh.

    Serbia could qualify to be "Belarus 2", if it made its peace with the lost territories, and not be a potential crisis center like Armenia is vis-a-vis Azerbaijan and Turkey.
    Russia could do with another Belarus, but doesn't really need another Armenia, in this sense.

    Or who knows. Maybe it's the opposite. Maybe Moscow will get Serbia to commit to fuse with the Serbian half of Bosnia, and once that's done and Serbia is shunned by "the Free World", then it'll have nowhere else to go but into the Kremlin's brotherly embrace. And Beijing's comradely hug too.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    , @RadicalCenter
    @128

    You’re right, 128, and it seems like Armenia and Serbia would both be wise to conclude such agreements with Russia soon. Perhaps also adopt the ruble as their currency or at least peg their currencies to the Ruble.

    For a more dramatic move, the outright addition of Serbia and Armenia to the RF would not significantly affect the domestic culture, ethnic makeup, or political balance of the Federation: they have tiny populations (2.9 million in Armenia and 3.2 million in Serbia) and fertility rates as low as Russia’s or worse (Armenia like Russia at 1.65, Serbia 1.46).

    Moreover, the median age of Serbians in Serbia is so high, 43.4 years old, that there won’t be many of them left in merely 35 years. Russia had better take the territory before the Turks, Kosovar Albanians, or someone else does.

  5. Is there any SOLID hard to dispute proof that Serbians have an IQ similar to blacks, I mean Nis or Belgrade is certainly a lot safer than Detroit or Baltimore.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @128

    Black violence and dysfunction seems to be a specifically black problem rather than a general low IQ problem, low IQ is just one part of it. Also, black Americans seem to be significantly more violent and criminal than even many lower IQ blacks in various African countries.

    In general many lower IQ countries are not particularly violent, such as places like Morocco, Tunisia, India, Jordan, etc.

    Replies: @Ian Smith, @loren, @Mr. XYZ

  6. If Serbs are cowards for not invading Kosovo, why are Chinese tanks not rolling through the streets of Taipei yet? Maybe everything has a right place and time?

    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @128

    Few have sacrificed over the past century like Serbs.

  7. I love how the EU is less popular than the USA. Really goes to show that having a satanic foreign policy plus being a cuck is such a turn off to most people, unless you’re from the cuck country of Georgia.

  8. @128
    Well if Russia really cares they will sign a customs union with Serbia and a Schengen agreement.

    Replies: @Rahan, @RadicalCenter

    Well if Russia really cares they will sign a customs union with Serbia and a Schengen agreement.

    A Shoygu agreement, heh.

    Serbia could qualify to be “Belarus 2”, if it made its peace with the lost territories, and not be a potential crisis center like Armenia is vis-a-vis Azerbaijan and Turkey.
    Russia could do with another Belarus, but doesn’t really need another Armenia, in this sense.

    Or who knows. Maybe it’s the opposite. Maybe Moscow will get Serbia to commit to fuse with the Serbian half of Bosnia, and once that’s done and Serbia is shunned by “the Free World”, then it’ll have nowhere else to go but into the Kremlin’s brotherly embrace. And Beijing’s comradely hug too.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Rahan

    Someone clearly isn't aware that Serbia signed a free trade agreement with Russia's EEU.

    In fact, Serbia is the only country in the world that has a free trade agreement with Russia, Turkey and the EU.

    So much ignorance and lack of knowledge about Serbia/Balkans in the comments sections. Although that's understandable because most people don't really care and most literally don't bother to do any basic reading whatsoever. Although the problem is when they give obnoxious opinions even though they don't know much of anything. Even worse when these opinions actually matter because they can make the difference whether Serbs get bombed or not, just like in the 1990's ...

    Replies: @Rahan

  9. @Not Only Wrathful
    Hating the US has been a favourite lie for Europeans throughout my lifetime

    Yet our individual and national actions always belie our words. US cultural products could not be more popular. Our dislike is totally fake and a risible cope for our enthrallment

    Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident, @Europe Europa, @Joe Paluka, @Kent Nationalist, @Korenchkin, @Bill, @Showmethereal, @Eugene Norman

    Yes, they certainly have no problem immigrating to America either.

  10. @128
    If Serbs are cowards for not invading Kosovo, why are Chinese tanks not rolling through the streets of Taipei yet? Maybe everything has a right place and time?

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

    Few have sacrificed over the past century like Serbs.

  11. @128
    Is there any SOLID hard to dispute proof that Serbians have an IQ similar to blacks, I mean Nis or Belgrade is certainly a lot safer than Detroit or Baltimore.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

    Black violence and dysfunction seems to be a specifically black problem rather than a general low IQ problem, low IQ is just one part of it. Also, black Americans seem to be significantly more violent and criminal than even many lower IQ blacks in various African countries.

    In general many lower IQ countries are not particularly violent, such as places like Morocco, Tunisia, India, Jordan, etc.

    • Replies: @Ian Smith
    @Europe Europa

    Africans in Africa, the Caribbean, and Europe are just as violent as American blacks, sometimes more so. They also have higher testosterone, so that may contribute.

    , @loren
    @Europe Europa

    Black Americans seem to be significantly more violent and criminal than even many lower IQ blacks in various African countries.

    Rwanda, Darfur, Rhodesia, South Africa? huh.

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @Europe Europa

    I believe that Steve Sailer once said that black Africans are more afraid to murder because they fear that the dead person's spirit will come back to haunt them, but unfortunately this doesn't actually appear to be true for black Americans due to them growing out of their African superstitious beliefs (at least when these beliefs haven't been converted into a belief in a mysterious and all-powerful systemic racism).

  12. @Not Only Wrathful
    Hating the US has been a favourite lie for Europeans throughout my lifetime

    Yet our individual and national actions always belie our words. US cultural products could not be more popular. Our dislike is totally fake and a risible cope for our enthrallment

    Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident, @Europe Europa, @Joe Paluka, @Kent Nationalist, @Korenchkin, @Bill, @Showmethereal, @Eugene Norman

    They hate Britain more these days. France/the EU are currently blocking the ports and shipments of food and medicine to Britain right now, because of a supposedly mutated COVID strain that has been found in the UK, that has also been found in many other European countries, yet they are only imposing these restrictions on the UK. It makes no sense other than that they just hate this country and want to make a point about it.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Europe Europa

    The 'strain' blockade is definitely a negotiating move. But something self-inflicted by our government.

  13. 40% consider Russia their best friend, followed by 16% for China.

    These kind of “opinion polls” are generally – meaningless nonsense. However, Serbian public are clearly very pro-Russian, as we can see from how they behave when Putin visits them on YouTube, that they worship him like teenage girls at the Justin Bieber concert. Serbia is the most pro-Russian Western European country – nowhere else do they support Russia like this in Europe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngOeR5vMg8A.

    The important and concretely realizable thing about Serbia from the perspective of Russian interests is TurkStream 2, and in this Serbia is clearly far more than enough pro-Russia. Public and government opposition against gas pipes only occurs in countries like Poland, where anti-Russian state sentiments reaches a high and almost unopposed level.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    @Dmitry

    Appreciate your points, Dmitry, but when did Serbia move into western Europe? ;)

    In any event, Serbia and Armenia will ultimately be destroyed if they don’t manage to get a formal military alliance with the Russian Federation. That might go together with Armenia and Serbia joining a thorough customs/currency/travel union with Russia (adopting the Ruble as their currency).

    Replies: @Dmitry

  14. It’s good that the Serbs are pro-Russian. But historically their biggest mistake has been that they were (and still are) anti-Bulgarian.

    Instead they chose an alliance with the Croats because they speak the same language. Croats speak the same tongue – but theirs is forked – like the one in a snake. The Serbs could have hardly chosen a worse “ally” then their “brothers” – the Croats.

    It’s never too late to mend historical mistakes. Serbs should make every effort (because it’s up to them) to fix their relationship with the Bulgarians.

    Just to illustrate the nature of attitudes between Serbs and Bulgarians – this is from personal experience. If 9 Bulgarians are in a company of 1 Serb – for a grand total of 10, the 9 Bulgarians will try to speak Serbian – to show how friendly they are to the Serbs, and how appreciative of their culture.

    Serbs are funny people, they have one famous national saying: “Speak Serbian so the whole world will understand you”. I know it sounds funny, but they really meant it – when that saying was created – probably about a century ago. It’s OK to think highly of yourselves, as long as you don’t look down on your fellow Slavs – the wrong ones.

    • Agree: Yevardian
    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    @Cyrano

    Talking about friends and Bulgarians, the funny thing is that Russians have been the best friends of Bulgarians in recent history yet the converse cannot be said to be true. Consider that modern Bulgaria owes its very existence to Russians, having resulted from the 1877 war against the Ottomans, and yet in two world wars Bulgaria sided with Germany, Russia's arch-enemy. In fact the Russians were such good friends of the Bulgarians, who did very little to free themselves from the Ottomans, that they intended to give a huge chunk of the Balkans to Bulgaria, including parts liberated from the Ottomans by the Serbian army.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Bulgaria-SanStefano_-%281878%29-byTodorBozhinov.png

    It was only because of the opposition of other European powers that Bulgaria was cut down to size. If anyone should be a Russophile it should be the Bulgarians but these backstabbers and traitors have always turned against their greatest benefactor. And I suppose they are now in NATO poised to fight on the side of Russia's enemies yet again.

    But other than that I agree that Bulgarians are quite close to Serbs in many respects: culture, religion, language, mentality.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Cyrano, @Humbert Humbert

    , @Gorgeous George
    @Cyrano

    Well I agree that Croats were terrible choice of company for the Serbs but what has been done is done, now the best thing to do is not to repeat similar mistakes. All future relations should be on bilateral basis rather than alliances since those tend to shift rapidly in the Balkans.

    The History is much more complex than the Bulgars or Serbs bad, or even Croats. All people of Balkans should just keep away from empty platitudes and fake well wishes and exclamations of brotherhood. Yes, Serbia and Bulgaria should act more in sync moving forward, but no need for any official alliance, people will tear it to shreds on both sides at first chance. It will be on glass legs. Bulgaria has a huge advantage over Serbia because it's not landlocked and can trade with the world, so in that sense Serbia needs Bulgaria more than the other way around.

    But first and foremost Bulgaria needs to un-recognize Kosovo as a separate state. Call it a show of good will, I know it will be greatly appreciated in Serbia. Also the Bulgarian friends that I have understood Serbian, like they can make it out much better than the other way around. I think that that might be since Serbian is a further evolved language, it had more overhauls and it differs greatly to what it used to be some 200 years ago when it doubtlessly had many more similarities with Bulgarian. So in that sense I think that speakers of an older language can understand the younger one, but the understanding doesn't go in reverse. Also on the language topic there was the cultural influence of Yugoslavia and Serbia in Bulgaria (call it soft power) but not really the other way around.

    Some things that should be common to both countries is the threat of the globohomo movement, the sort of related demographic catastrophe and economic under-development.

    Also both countries owe their very existence to Russia.

    Bulgaria though went full Euro (path to globohomo) and gave up it's sovereignty with EU and Nato membership. This is a huge turn off. So there is really no talk of alliances but there should be real reproach starting with Bulgaria's un-recognizing of Kosovo. After that more can be done with energy, common stance in support of sovereign nations globally, support for each others sovereignty, cultural exchanges in university levels and so forth. Small steps that are basically supporting each owns rights to existence.

    Replies: @Yevardian

  15. Just ask Armenia what being best friends with Russia gets you?

    Letting Turks overrun ancient Christian lands.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Agathoklis

    0.05 Turkish Lira has been deposited to your account

    , @Epigon
    @Agathoklis

    It is only well that Anglos and your servitude to them left you with such a nice 20th century.

    Enjoy your CIA Orthodoxy, Ecumenism and dysfunctional state.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

  16. @Not Only Wrathful
    Hating the US has been a favourite lie for Europeans throughout my lifetime

    Yet our individual and national actions always belie our words. US cultural products could not be more popular. Our dislike is totally fake and a risible cope for our enthrallment

    Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident, @Europe Europa, @Joe Paluka, @Kent Nationalist, @Korenchkin, @Bill, @Showmethereal, @Eugene Norman

    European leftists love American leftists, as you could see the love ins that accompanied Obama wherever he went in Europe. European Nationalists don’t dislike the average American person, they just don’t like the US government meddling in European affairs. Nato should’ve been abolished 30 years ago so Europe could build up it’s own defence. After Trump cleans up American problems in the next year or so, he can set about disengaging the US from Nato and let the Europeans set up their own defence strategies.

  17. @Europe Europa
    @Not Only Wrathful

    They hate Britain more these days. France/the EU are currently blocking the ports and shipments of food and medicine to Britain right now, because of a supposedly mutated COVID strain that has been found in the UK, that has also been found in many other European countries, yet they are only imposing these restrictions on the UK. It makes no sense other than that they just hate this country and want to make a point about it.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    The ‘strain’ blockade is definitely a negotiating move. But something self-inflicted by our government.

  18. @Not Only Wrathful
    Hating the US has been a favourite lie for Europeans throughout my lifetime

    Yet our individual and national actions always belie our words. US cultural products could not be more popular. Our dislike is totally fake and a risible cope for our enthrallment

    Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident, @Europe Europa, @Joe Paluka, @Kent Nationalist, @Korenchkin, @Bill, @Showmethereal, @Eugene Norman

    The anti-americanism of European liberals is essentially the hatred of the rest of America that American ‘coastal elites’ have, except with even more ignorance of what America is actually like. Imagine if all you knew of America came from watching the most extremist libtard propaganda.

    I remember reading about what North Koreans say about South Korea (that it is full of crime, that people are dying in the streets for lack of healthcare, that most children cannot afford to go to school etc.) and it is mostly the same as what Europeans believe about America.

    • Agree: Not Only Wrathful
    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Supply and Demand
    @Kent Nationalist

    You forgot to mention the circumcision cult. I used to work with NorK academics (yes, they exist) when I was at my university’s satellite campus in Dandong. They were horrified that the Americans conned the Southerners into doing genital mutilation — which in ancient Korea was punishment for rape.

  19. @Matt Forney
    And yet despite Serbian Russophilia, every time they go to the polls, they elect pro-U.S./pro-E.U./pro-NATO governments (most recently this spring, when SNS won an outright majority because the opposition couldn't be bothered to participate).

    Revealed preference. Serbs don't actually care enough to act on their Russophilia. Getting rid of their government would be priority one on this front because Vučić certainly isn't going to be leading any tank columns into Pristina.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Denis, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Mr. XYZ, @Roda, @Svevlad

    Russo-Serbian relations improved greatly under Vučić
    Most obviously there were zero Russo-Serbian military drills before him

    Serbia cannot cut itself off form the EU for the same reason Mexico can’t cut itself off from the US, only the imbalance is even worse here

    It was under his rule that the attitude towards the EU, China and Russia shifted

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Korenchkin

    Memories are short and selective :)

    https://i.imgur.com/MZLc8ny.jpg

    Vucic is merely a centrist opportunist who is willing to do whatever to stay in power. He doesn't have an ideological core and you're just wishfully ascribing motives to someone who is an empty shell.

    What has happened since 2014 is that the EU became exposed for being a toothless subcolonial entity of the US empire, whereas the rise of China has been unrelenting. Balkanoid publics have been paying attention to this. Vucic has merely been in power as a structural shift took place, which would happen regardless of who was in his seat.

    There's also the question of emigration. Serbia is seeing the emigration of its relatively more liberal elements, especially at the top end of the cognitive spectrum, and this leads to a political vacuum for liberals. Again, structural forces.

    Finally, China has been showering balkanoids with BRI loans whereas EU grants have been a more mixed bag. But geography cannot be escaped, which is why whoever is in power will appease the US and its subcolonial entity called the EU. Serbia's trade and investment is overwhelmingly coming from there. This is Fatt Horney's point. And he's right just this once.

    Serbia will continue to be on a leash on behalf of greater powers. Insofar as this could change, it will be because of a re-ordering of great powers, not because of anything Serbia itself can do. It will remain what it always was: a passive chess piece of great power politics.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Blinky Bill, @Dmitry, @Korenchkin

  20. @Agathoklis
    Just ask Armenia what being best friends with Russia gets you?

    Letting Turks overrun ancient Christian lands.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Epigon

    0.05 Turkish Lira has been deposited to your account

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  21. @Cyrano
    It’s good that the Serbs are pro-Russian. But historically their biggest mistake has been that they were (and still are) anti-Bulgarian.

    Instead they chose an alliance with the Croats because they speak the same language. Croats speak the same tongue – but theirs is forked – like the one in a snake. The Serbs could have hardly chosen a worse “ally” then their “brothers” – the Croats.

    It’s never too late to mend historical mistakes. Serbs should make every effort (because it’s up to them) to fix their relationship with the Bulgarians.

    Just to illustrate the nature of attitudes between Serbs and Bulgarians – this is from personal experience. If 9 Bulgarians are in a company of 1 Serb – for a grand total of 10, the 9 Bulgarians will try to speak Serbian – to show how friendly they are to the Serbs, and how appreciative of their culture.

    Serbs are funny people, they have one famous national saying: “Speak Serbian so the whole world will understand you”. I know it sounds funny, but they really meant it – when that saying was created – probably about a century ago. It's OK to think highly of yourselves, as long as you don't look down on your fellow Slavs - the wrong ones.

    Replies: @Commentator Mike, @Gorgeous George

    Talking about friends and Bulgarians, the funny thing is that Russians have been the best friends of Bulgarians in recent history yet the converse cannot be said to be true. Consider that modern Bulgaria owes its very existence to Russians, having resulted from the 1877 war against the Ottomans, and yet in two world wars Bulgaria sided with Germany, Russia’s arch-enemy. In fact the Russians were such good friends of the Bulgarians, who did very little to free themselves from the Ottomans, that they intended to give a huge chunk of the Balkans to Bulgaria, including parts liberated from the Ottomans by the Serbian army.

    It was only because of the opposition of other European powers that Bulgaria was cut down to size. If anyone should be a Russophile it should be the Bulgarians but these backstabbers and traitors have always turned against their greatest benefactor. And I suppose they are now in NATO poised to fight on the side of Russia’s enemies yet again.

    But other than that I agree that Bulgarians are quite close to Serbs in many respects: culture, religion, language, mentality.

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Commentator Mike

    In the case of Bulgaria, much of the Bulgarian political establishment shouldn't be confused with Bulgarians en masse who're generally pro-Russian.

    Ever since the Congress of Berlin, when modern Bulgaria gained independence, the West was able to enhance a Bulgarian body politic to at times has taken issue with Russia.

    Over the years, I've personally experienced a noticeable pro-Russian sentiment among Serbs, Bulgarians and Montenegrins.

    BTW, Serbia unlike Bulgaria and Montenegro, voted for the recent Russian sponsored UNGA Resolution condemning the glorification of Nazism.

    , @Cyrano
    @Commentator Mike

    I am typically pro-Serbian (actually I am generally, pro-Slav, unless we are talking about some real morons, which there are plenty among the Slavs), but in this case I am going to have to call it against the Serbs.

    I think that they are the original back-stabbers. In fact, I think that if you look in the dictionary under “backstabber” – chances are, you might see a picture of a Serb. I mean how could you choose Greece over Bulgaria in the 2nd Balkan War? What is wrong with those people?

    The Greeks haven’t done anything useful historically, for almost 2 millennia, and it doesn’t look like they ever will again. And yet, the Serbs choose the Greeks and back-stabbed the Bulgarians. It’s the ultimate betrayal.

    And I think it has haunted the Serbs to this day, because nothing has ever gone right for them historically after that colossal betrayal of their fellow Slavs – the Bulgarians - to make benefit the glorious nation of Greece.

    Bulgarians have one saying: Винаги с Германия, никога против Русия – which translates into: “Always with Germany, never against Russia”. And it’s the Serbs who pushed the Bulgarians into permanent alliance with the Germans, because the Germans were the only ones willing to offer Bulgaria what they wanted – the territories that they lost in the 2nd Balkan war thanks to the Serb’s betrayal.

    Despite their “alliance” with Germany, Bulgaria has hardly ever done anything useful for Germany at the expense of the Russians. There were no Bulgarian soldiers on the eastern front in WW2, Bulgarians fought the Russians in WW1, but not so much in the capacity of German allies, more in capacity of personal benefit.

    On the other hand, Russia has always been more pro-Serbian than pro-Bulgarian, I think the reason being is that the Serbs are more passionate Russian butt-kissers (not that there is anything wrong with it), then the Bulgarians. The Serbs just put so much emotion into it, that they are hard to resist.

    The only Russian (Soviet) leader who has ever made the right call in the Bulgarian-Serbian dispute, was actually Stalin. He said that the territories that Bulgaria lost thanks to the Serbian back-stabbing, logically belong to Bulgaria – but even he didn’t do anything to make that territorial redistribution happen in the Balkans, because he didn’t wanted to offend the Serbs. The bottom line is: The Serbs made a huge mistake in the 2nd Balkan war, and forever screwed up the Balkan dynamics – unfortunately not in their favor, probably not in anybody’s favor, as far as the Slavs are concerned.

    Replies: @Commentator Mike, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Gorgeous George

    , @Humbert Humbert
    @Commentator Mike

    You got it all wrong chap. It was the arrogance of the Russians that soured the relationships between Bulgaria and the Russian empire. Firstly, the will of the newly liberated Bulgarians was to have a republican constitution. Russia (and Germany) rammed a constitutional monarchy instead and we got our first prince/king Alexander Batenberg, a nice Danish guy. Alas, once he tried to lead an independent politics from Russia, the Russian representative started a chain of intrigue that ended deposing Batenberg sending him into exile.

    This was the first big event that showed that the Russian empire was not trying to treat us as independent nation. Later event was the opposition against the unification of the two (out of three) main Bulgarian territories - Thracia and Moesia which further soured the gratefulness towards the Russian army and the assassinated emperor Alexander II (Alexander Nevsky cathedral is the biggest orthodox cathedral in Bulgaria and is built to honour his name).

    The third event was when the Russian army tried to attack us during WW1 even though we refused to participate in the war against them on the Eastern front and fought them at our borders and won.

    We, ordinary Bulgarians are fully aware what Russia has done for us, in fact, we are the only! country in Europe to refuse fighting against Russia(USSR) during both WW1 and WW2 on the grounds that they are our "brothers".

    Now, in regards to the shithead serbians, it was in our first decade of existence as newly independent nation when they tried to expand territorially at our expense and attacked us in something like 2 to 1 advantage, but got their asses kicked back. They are truly the loathsome turds of the Balkan peninsula.

  22. @Not Only Wrathful
    Hating the US has been a favourite lie for Europeans throughout my lifetime

    Yet our individual and national actions always belie our words. US cultural products could not be more popular. Our dislike is totally fake and a risible cope for our enthrallment

    Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident, @Europe Europa, @Joe Paluka, @Kent Nationalist, @Korenchkin, @Bill, @Showmethereal, @Eugene Norman

    I don’t see how me liking Clint Eastwood movies also means I like my people getting ethnically cleansed

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @Korenchkin

    I honestly think anons reads too much into soft power.

    Maybe that is the intent? Mislead others so they would remain truly powerless.

  23. @Agathoklis
    Just ask Armenia what being best friends with Russia gets you?

    Letting Turks overrun ancient Christian lands.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Epigon

    It is only well that Anglos and your servitude to them left you with such a nice 20th century.

    Enjoy your CIA Orthodoxy, Ecumenism and dysfunctional state.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @Epigon

    Typically reflexive pro-Russian view. Neither Russia or the United States are great allies for Serbia and Greece.

  24. @Not Only Wrathful
    Hating the US has been a favourite lie for Europeans throughout my lifetime

    Yet our individual and national actions always belie our words. US cultural products could not be more popular. Our dislike is totally fake and a risible cope for our enthrallment

    Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident, @Europe Europa, @Joe Paluka, @Kent Nationalist, @Korenchkin, @Bill, @Showmethereal, @Eugene Norman

    Right. You can’t both hate your dealer and be addicted to crack. Because logic.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
    @Bill

    But indeed - many hate their dealers. Many hate that they want to get high. Thats what being an addict is.

  25. @Commentator Mike
    @Cyrano

    Talking about friends and Bulgarians, the funny thing is that Russians have been the best friends of Bulgarians in recent history yet the converse cannot be said to be true. Consider that modern Bulgaria owes its very existence to Russians, having resulted from the 1877 war against the Ottomans, and yet in two world wars Bulgaria sided with Germany, Russia's arch-enemy. In fact the Russians were such good friends of the Bulgarians, who did very little to free themselves from the Ottomans, that they intended to give a huge chunk of the Balkans to Bulgaria, including parts liberated from the Ottomans by the Serbian army.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Bulgaria-SanStefano_-%281878%29-byTodorBozhinov.png

    It was only because of the opposition of other European powers that Bulgaria was cut down to size. If anyone should be a Russophile it should be the Bulgarians but these backstabbers and traitors have always turned against their greatest benefactor. And I suppose they are now in NATO poised to fight on the side of Russia's enemies yet again.

    But other than that I agree that Bulgarians are quite close to Serbs in many respects: culture, religion, language, mentality.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Cyrano, @Humbert Humbert

    In the case of Bulgaria, much of the Bulgarian political establishment shouldn’t be confused with Bulgarians en masse who’re generally pro-Russian.

    Ever since the Congress of Berlin, when modern Bulgaria gained independence, the West was able to enhance a Bulgarian body politic to at times has taken issue with Russia.

    Over the years, I’ve personally experienced a noticeable pro-Russian sentiment among Serbs, Bulgarians and Montenegrins.

    BTW, Serbia unlike Bulgaria and Montenegro, voted for the recent Russian sponsored UNGA Resolution condemning the glorification of Nazism.

  26. Serbia has produced a few tennis players; other than that they are nothing. They play no roll in the world. Why write an article about them.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    @Jimmy1969

    They started one world war, or at least are blamed for it. And they got the blame for almost a decade of wars in the 1990s. So that is "nothing"? They still have the potential to start something big that could draw in all the major players. After the Middle East the Balkans are probably the biggest flashpoint in the world, even more so than the Caucasus, and the Serbs always play a big role in setting off that tinderbox.

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

    , @jimmy1969
    @Jimmy1969

    Ancient history...they are nothing today. We are now smarter than we used to be. No one would start a war for them. Nato wiped them out in 2 days in the 90s.

  27. You’ve got a point there. Watching mainstream coverage and reading mainstream newspapers about the US here in Europe is like watching MSNBC on steroids.

    Just the other day, an opinion piece I started reading began this way, “In 2016, America entered the darkest period in its history.”

  28. @Matt Forney
    And yet despite Serbian Russophilia, every time they go to the polls, they elect pro-U.S./pro-E.U./pro-NATO governments (most recently this spring, when SNS won an outright majority because the opposition couldn't be bothered to participate).

    Revealed preference. Serbs don't actually care enough to act on their Russophilia. Getting rid of their government would be priority one on this front because Vučić certainly isn't going to be leading any tank columns into Pristina.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Denis, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Mr. XYZ, @Roda, @Svevlad

    AK: No personal insults.

  29. @Korenchkin
    @Not Only Wrathful

    I don't see how me liking Clint Eastwood movies also means I like my people getting ethnically cleansed

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    I honestly think anons reads too much into soft power.

    Maybe that is the intent? Mislead others so they would remain truly powerless.

  30. 52% would support Serbian military intervention in Kosovo in the event of a conflict and 47% claim they would personally participate in it.
    However, 69% were against intervention in Montenegro and 58% in Bosnia & Herzegovina in an analogous scenario

    Serbian support for intervention in any of these scenarios likely varies quite a bit depending on how confident the people polled are of victory. The most common riposte I’ve observed to revanchist arguments among Serbs is that NATO enjoys overwhelming superiority in the region, and hence Serbia should not take any military action.

    I suspect that this is a primary reason for the regional variation; Montenegro, being a NATO member, may be seen as a tripwire that would invite massive NATO retaliation by the responders, and so they are more cautious there. Bosnia however is not a NATO member, and so they are more decisive in that case, and Kosovo is actually considered a part of Serbia by several NATO members, so they are even more confident in that case. In other words, the perceived likelihood of success probably plays a great role in the responses. (I make no argument as to whether or not this is a reasonable way of viewing things or whether or not the respondents perceive the likelihood of success accurately if my hypothesis is accurate)

    • Replies: @Gorgeous George
    @Denis

    I'm one of the 52%

    The discrepancy in due to likelihood of shit happening and also having a clear "enemy" is also a helpful determinant.

    Allow me to explain. In Kosovo, likelihood of shit going down is low, but much higher then in these other places. Like there could easily be another pogrom like in 2004 and you pretty much know who would be the opposing side. Also last time war had a real outcome, Kosovo was ripped out of Serbia, so basically what's good for them is good for me.

    In Montenegro it will not get any worse than just anti Serbian hysterics with an occasional beating, which is no cause for action. Even that likelihood plummeted with the latest election that the pro-Serbian coalition won.

    In Bosnia you have three entities, Muslims, Croats and Serbs. Likelihood of shit happenig is actually pretty low, it's all down to grandstanding and political gestures that give diminishing returns each time they are played. Republika Srpska also has an army so it's not like this unprotected entity, unlike Serbs in Kosovo. Also the last war there (a real war) really had little outcome. Bosnia is still partiotioned along ethnic lines, just a bit more than it was before. No one really won it all, Serbs have half and Cro-Muslims have half. A re-run might have the same result.

    This is how I see it from the inside.

  31. @Commentator Mike
    @Cyrano

    Talking about friends and Bulgarians, the funny thing is that Russians have been the best friends of Bulgarians in recent history yet the converse cannot be said to be true. Consider that modern Bulgaria owes its very existence to Russians, having resulted from the 1877 war against the Ottomans, and yet in two world wars Bulgaria sided with Germany, Russia's arch-enemy. In fact the Russians were such good friends of the Bulgarians, who did very little to free themselves from the Ottomans, that they intended to give a huge chunk of the Balkans to Bulgaria, including parts liberated from the Ottomans by the Serbian army.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Bulgaria-SanStefano_-%281878%29-byTodorBozhinov.png

    It was only because of the opposition of other European powers that Bulgaria was cut down to size. If anyone should be a Russophile it should be the Bulgarians but these backstabbers and traitors have always turned against their greatest benefactor. And I suppose they are now in NATO poised to fight on the side of Russia's enemies yet again.

    But other than that I agree that Bulgarians are quite close to Serbs in many respects: culture, religion, language, mentality.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Cyrano, @Humbert Humbert

    I am typically pro-Serbian (actually I am generally, pro-Slav, unless we are talking about some real morons, which there are plenty among the Slavs), but in this case I am going to have to call it against the Serbs.

    I think that they are the original back-stabbers. In fact, I think that if you look in the dictionary under “backstabber” – chances are, you might see a picture of a Serb. I mean how could you choose Greece over Bulgaria in the 2nd Balkan War? What is wrong with those people?

    The Greeks haven’t done anything useful historically, for almost 2 millennia, and it doesn’t look like they ever will again. And yet, the Serbs choose the Greeks and back-stabbed the Bulgarians. It’s the ultimate betrayal.

    And I think it has haunted the Serbs to this day, because nothing has ever gone right for them historically after that colossal betrayal of their fellow Slavs – the Bulgarians – to make benefit the glorious nation of Greece.

    Bulgarians have one saying: Винаги с Германия, никога против Русия – which translates into: “Always with Germany, never against Russia”. And it’s the Serbs who pushed the Bulgarians into permanent alliance with the Germans, because the Germans were the only ones willing to offer Bulgaria what they wanted – the territories that they lost in the 2nd Balkan war thanks to the Serb’s betrayal.

    Despite their “alliance” with Germany, Bulgaria has hardly ever done anything useful for Germany at the expense of the Russians. There were no Bulgarian soldiers on the eastern front in WW2, Bulgarians fought the Russians in WW1, but not so much in the capacity of German allies, more in capacity of personal benefit.

    On the other hand, Russia has always been more pro-Serbian than pro-Bulgarian, I think the reason being is that the Serbs are more passionate Russian butt-kissers (not that there is anything wrong with it), then the Bulgarians. The Serbs just put so much emotion into it, that they are hard to resist.

    The only Russian (Soviet) leader who has ever made the right call in the Bulgarian-Serbian dispute, was actually Stalin. He said that the territories that Bulgaria lost thanks to the Serbian back-stabbing, logically belong to Bulgaria – but even he didn’t do anything to make that territorial redistribution happen in the Balkans, because he didn’t wanted to offend the Serbs. The bottom line is: The Serbs made a huge mistake in the 2nd Balkan war, and forever screwed up the Balkan dynamics – unfortunately not in their favor, probably not in anybody’s favor, as far as the Slavs are concerned.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    @Cyrano

    Personally I would like to see all these Balkaners being good neighbours rather than to keep fighting each other over petty disputes that serve foreign powers more than themselves as they have more in common with each other than with those others from further afield that they seek as allies in their disputes. As far as the Second Balkan War goes Turkey was allied with the Bulgarians, or rather the Bulgarians were allied with the Turks, and since the Turks were the traditional enemy of the Balkan peoples they colonised under the Ottoman Empire it is only natural that Serbs should ally with the Greeks. I really don't know how the Bulgarians ended up on the other side; perhaps they wanted all those territories that the Russians proposed to give them at the Treaty of San Stefano and the Congress of Berlin in 1878. All those nations in the Balkans have been pawns of great powers in their disputes, and since Russia had to play the games of war and diplomacy with those other powers at times it couldn't be the good friend of everybody in the region, not even of the Serbs and has let them down on occasion.

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Cyrano


    I think that they are the original back-stabbers. In fact, I think that if you look in the dictionary under “backstabber” – chances are, you might see a picture of a Serb. I mean how could you choose Greece over Bulgaria in the 2nd Balkan War? What is wrong with those people?

    The Greeks haven’t done anything useful historically, for almost 2 millennia, and it doesn’t look like they ever will again. And yet, the Serbs choose the Greeks and back-stabbed the Bulgarians. It’s the ultimate betrayal.

    And I think it has haunted the Serbs to this day, because nothing has ever gone right for them historically after that colossal betrayal of their fellow Slavs – the Bulgarians – to make benefit the glorious nation of Greece.

     

    Let's clear the historical record here once and for all.

    Bulgaria dishonored its treaty obligations towards Serbia in the 1st Balkan War and after it ended.


    - Bulgaria refused to send a single soldier to help Serbs fight against Ottomans in Vardar Macedonia (understandable, but still a breach of pre-war treaty obligations)
    - MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY, Bulgaria refused to honor its treaty obligation with Serbia to defend it against any attack by any foreign powers, be it Ottoman Empire or Austria-Hungary.
    - This is why Albania even exists as a country because Bulgaria refused to go to war to defend Serbia from an ultimatum by all the combined West European great powers to Serbia ordering it to retreat from Albania, that it had to submit to in 1913. In fact, Bulgaria bears a large amount of fault for the fact that Albania even exists as a country at all ...
    - It was Bulgaria that attacked Serbia and began the 2nd Balkan War. Bulgaria attacked Serbia because it thought it could get and even deserves "ancient Bulgarian Macedonia" by attacking its Serb allies army encampment in Bregalnica in the middle of the night hoping to slaughter it's allies while they're all asleep. This failed and Serbs managed to successfully fight back, together with Greece. Bulgarian Tsar Ferdinand I (his Germanic heritage clearly has a lot to do with why Bulgaria allowed Albania's creation) is also on the record as stating something along the lines of "Serbs don't deserve to exist" ...
    - For these reasons Serbs refused to cede Vardar Macedonia that was hard won in many battles against the Ottoman Empire in the 1st Balkan War. True, a breach of treaty obligations by Serbia, although completely understandable given Bulgarian behavior.

    Imprint the above firmly into your head. They are objective truths and facts that Bulgarians are clearly oblivious about.

    Otherwise yes, you are correct about other things. Serbs and Bulgarians shouldn't fight each other, especially when they have so many other much more important problems than each other right now..

    Replies: @Yevardian

    , @Gorgeous George
    @Cyrano

    You're getting things wrong.


    I mean how could you choose Greece over Bulgaria in the 2nd Balkan War?
     
    The 2nd Balkan War wasn't a war of choice for Serbia, Serbia was attacked by Bulgaria. Bulgaria confessed and ceded territory after loosing.

    Not to say that Bulgaria didn't get fucked after the 1st Balkan war, when it was allied with Serbia. What none of the allied Balkan countries (Serbia, Montenegro, Greece and Bulgaria) knew on the eve of the war was that the combined west would insist on the creation of Albania. The pre-war deal was that what became Albania would be split with the north going to Serbia and Epir to Greece. What is today Northern Macedonia was to be split roughly east to Bulgaria and West to Serbia.

    Then the war Happens, Turkey is beat, Bulgaria gains access to Aegean and is right out of Constantinople.

    Then Serbia (and Greece) get screwed out of what became Albania by the combined West. Serbia (a bit butthurt and with claims of Bulgarians negating alliance obligations by not committing troops) then keeps it's gains against the Turks in what is Northern Macedonia. Bulgaria is pissed.

    So Serbia got fucked by the west, fucks over Bulgaria for half of Macedonia.

    Bulgaria then attacks Serbia. Night raid, well documented. Bulgaria rolled that dice, foolishly. Then seeing that Bulgaria couldn't defeat the Serbs and was stuck then it got attacked by Turkey and Greece and Romania. As a result Bulgaria got fucked royally, Turkey regained a foothold in Europe, Bulgaria lost all of it's Aegean coast and it ceded territory to Serbia as compensation.

    Then comes WW1 and Bulgaria then actually backstabs Serbia and does fucked up things to the local population and then does the same thing again in WW2. Long story short Bulgaria attacked Serbia three times in three consecutive wars. Can't really call that Serbian backstabbing. Serbia did fuck Bulgars (which was wrong, even if Serbia first did get fucked out of Adriatic coast by the West) over after 1st Balkan war but fucking over one side and attacking are different things.

    Russia has always been more pro-Serbian than pro-Bulgarian
     
    Not really, San Stefan peace accords are case in point, as well as what you said about Stalin.

    Serbs are more passionate Russian butt-kissers
     
    Being that there would be no Serbia to speak of if Russia doesn't step in WW1 I call Serbian feelings toward Russia simple gratitude and is woefully underdone. Russia literally took a bullet for Serbia (the empire died) and Serbia lived on. Being that Serbia lost like a third of it's population in a war it WON it's safe to assume that there would be no Serbia or Serbs without the Russian intervention.

    Other than that I agree that Serbs and Bulgarians should let bygones be and focus on their respective sovereignty and demographic problems. It would also be nice if Orthodox Bulgaria would not backstab Serbia by recognizing Kosovo, so there's the perfect 1st step on ending broken relations.

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

  32. 87% think chinese influence is positive? WTF. These Serbs need to get their minds right.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Tony

    How about you focus yourself on winning the Senate elections upcoming this January in the USA to prevent Joe Biden's administration from having absolute control over both US internal and foreign policy?

    Or are Trump fans too cucked to be able to even achieve this?

    Replies: @Pericles

    , @Showmethereal
    @Tony

    China was helping them with intelligence gathering when NATO attacked them. They seem to know better than you. In fact part of the reason the US probably still has it in for them was because US intelligence believes that as a reward for helping the Serbs with SIGnals INTelligence they gave China a piece of the stealth plane they took down. That is most likely the reason the CIA bombed the Chinese Embassy in Serbia.
    Friends are not friends in talk - but in deed.

    , @Gorgeous George
    @Tony

    Why not?

    The combined west bombed, sanctioned and ripped Serbia apart three times in the last century, while China held it's back in the UN and helped massively at the onset of Covid.

    I don't see your logic besides that you might hold a grudge with China for taking US jobs or something, why Serbia should care about any of that is besides me.

    Replies: @Tony

  33. Serbia would be well advised to forget about Kosovo except for attempting to arrange for the transfer of some border municipalities and historic sites. When your core territories have a population of just north of 7 million, you don’t benefit from having a glob of 1.8 million discontented Albanians appended to you. A more sensible goal would be incorporating the Republika Srpska into Serbia proper.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
    @Art Deco

    This is what I would say to that: The Ottoman empire lasted 500 years. Second longest lasting empire in history – after the Roman empire - which stands at 1000 years. I am not sure about Egypt, but I don’t think it was competitive with the above 2.

    Anyway, the point is, Serbia outlasted the Ottoman empire, eventually gained freedom - with Kosovo being part of it. I am willing to bet that Serbia will outlast the current “Ottomans”, the ones across the ocean. I don’t see them lasting 500 years, let alone a 1000. I would be surprised if they outlast even Biden.

    The point is, Serbs are patient people, they waited for the Turks to get out of the Balkans – with a little bit of Russian help, and enjoyed some breathing space for a while. The times are calling for patience again, and in a short period of time, things will probably rearrange themselves in the Balkans, maybe even favoring the Serbs a little bit. They deserve a break.

    Replies: @128, @Art Deco

    , @Korenchkin
    @Art Deco

    Not going to happen, and for that matter Russians shouldn't forget about Ukraine either

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @Gorgeous George
    @Art Deco

    Nope, Serbia should never forget about Kosovo. Even if it's 5 million Albanians there, you have to have your myth alive and if you give that up you give your soul up. Basically Serbia that surrenders Kosovo isn't Serbia worth having anymore.

    To the demographic point it's not 1.8 Million Albanians there anymore, it's not 1991 anymore. They have stopped having 7 kids and are currently outbred by Kosovo Serbs. That's not even the biggest thing, the have bled people to Europe in droves in the last 10 years. Once they saw that their Serb free land isn't any paradise, it's not even in the UN, it's hopelessly corrupt, criminal, statelet with no real sovereignty people started to leave. By the hordes. Their true number is now 1.1 million at most and shedding fast.

    Still much more than the 0.2 million Serbs but far from 2 mil. These trends will continue. Serbia just must bide it's time. Republika Srpska can also wait, it's not going anywhere.

  34. @Cyrano
    @Commentator Mike

    I am typically pro-Serbian (actually I am generally, pro-Slav, unless we are talking about some real morons, which there are plenty among the Slavs), but in this case I am going to have to call it against the Serbs.

    I think that they are the original back-stabbers. In fact, I think that if you look in the dictionary under “backstabber” – chances are, you might see a picture of a Serb. I mean how could you choose Greece over Bulgaria in the 2nd Balkan War? What is wrong with those people?

    The Greeks haven’t done anything useful historically, for almost 2 millennia, and it doesn’t look like they ever will again. And yet, the Serbs choose the Greeks and back-stabbed the Bulgarians. It’s the ultimate betrayal.

    And I think it has haunted the Serbs to this day, because nothing has ever gone right for them historically after that colossal betrayal of their fellow Slavs – the Bulgarians - to make benefit the glorious nation of Greece.

    Bulgarians have one saying: Винаги с Германия, никога против Русия – which translates into: “Always with Germany, never against Russia”. And it’s the Serbs who pushed the Bulgarians into permanent alliance with the Germans, because the Germans were the only ones willing to offer Bulgaria what they wanted – the territories that they lost in the 2nd Balkan war thanks to the Serb’s betrayal.

    Despite their “alliance” with Germany, Bulgaria has hardly ever done anything useful for Germany at the expense of the Russians. There were no Bulgarian soldiers on the eastern front in WW2, Bulgarians fought the Russians in WW1, but not so much in the capacity of German allies, more in capacity of personal benefit.

    On the other hand, Russia has always been more pro-Serbian than pro-Bulgarian, I think the reason being is that the Serbs are more passionate Russian butt-kissers (not that there is anything wrong with it), then the Bulgarians. The Serbs just put so much emotion into it, that they are hard to resist.

    The only Russian (Soviet) leader who has ever made the right call in the Bulgarian-Serbian dispute, was actually Stalin. He said that the territories that Bulgaria lost thanks to the Serbian back-stabbing, logically belong to Bulgaria – but even he didn’t do anything to make that territorial redistribution happen in the Balkans, because he didn’t wanted to offend the Serbs. The bottom line is: The Serbs made a huge mistake in the 2nd Balkan war, and forever screwed up the Balkan dynamics – unfortunately not in their favor, probably not in anybody’s favor, as far as the Slavs are concerned.

    Replies: @Commentator Mike, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Gorgeous George

    Personally I would like to see all these Balkaners being good neighbours rather than to keep fighting each other over petty disputes that serve foreign powers more than themselves as they have more in common with each other than with those others from further afield that they seek as allies in their disputes. As far as the Second Balkan War goes Turkey was allied with the Bulgarians, or rather the Bulgarians were allied with the Turks, and since the Turks were the traditional enemy of the Balkan peoples they colonised under the Ottoman Empire it is only natural that Serbs should ally with the Greeks. I really don’t know how the Bulgarians ended up on the other side; perhaps they wanted all those territories that the Russians proposed to give them at the Treaty of San Stefano and the Congress of Berlin in 1878. All those nations in the Balkans have been pawns of great powers in their disputes, and since Russia had to play the games of war and diplomacy with those other powers at times it couldn’t be the good friend of everybody in the region, not even of the Serbs and has let them down on occasion.

  35. @Jimmy1969
    Serbia has produced a few tennis players; other than that they are nothing. They play no roll in the world. Why write an article about them.

    Replies: @Commentator Mike, @jimmy1969

    They started one world war, or at least are blamed for it. And they got the blame for almost a decade of wars in the 1990s. So that is “nothing”? They still have the potential to start something big that could draw in all the major players. After the Middle East the Balkans are probably the biggest flashpoint in the world, even more so than the Caucasus, and the Serbs always play a big role in setting off that tinderbox.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    @Commentator Mike

    Yep, and perhaps mountains contested by China and India are an even more meaningful and dangerous flashpoint.

  36. : A better explanation is that Serbs consider Kosovo as part of Serbia proper while Bosnia was never part of any historical Serb polity.

    As for Montenegro, they have generally had good relations, so there is no good reason to go to war.

    • Replies: @Denis
    @Scotist

    Regarding Bosnia, that is certainly a possibility.

    For Montenegro, I am not so sure. Serbs would probably be reluctant to fight a war against Montenegro, given that most Serbs view Montenegrins and Serbs as being one, and indeed, relations between them on a personal level are good, since so many family ties cross national borders. However, that does not mean the government of Montenegro is seen with the same friendliness. The Montenegrin government is widely, and accurately, seen as an anti-Serb state that is engaged in a campaign of cultural vandalism against the people. Time will tell if this changes with the long-awaited removal of Djukanovic.

  37. @Matt Forney
    And yet despite Serbian Russophilia, every time they go to the polls, they elect pro-U.S./pro-E.U./pro-NATO governments (most recently this spring, when SNS won an outright majority because the opposition couldn't be bothered to participate).

    Revealed preference. Serbs don't actually care enough to act on their Russophilia. Getting rid of their government would be priority one on this front because Vučić certainly isn't going to be leading any tank columns into Pristina.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Denis, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Mr. XYZ, @Roda, @Svevlad

    And yet despite Serbian Russophilia, every time they go to the polls, they elect pro-U.S./pro-E.U./pro-NATO governments (most recently this spring, when SNS won an outright majority because the opposition couldn’t be bothered to participate).

    Take a look at a map and see whether Tashkent (capital of Uzbekistan) or Belgrade is closer to Moscow. You’d actually be surprised to know that it’s Tashkent …

    With such a reality in mind (also the fact that Serbia is literally encircled by NATO), the current situation is not surprising. Note: Serbia actually cancelled military exercises with both Russia and NATO for 6 months because NATO/USA/EU threatened serious pressure (economic sanctions at least definitely) against Republika Srpska/Serbia/Serbs this year, because Serbia was supposed to do military exercises with Russia and Belarus at “Slavic Shield” in Belarus, right when they wanted to overthrow Lukashenko (in this way, they felt like Serbia was poking their eyes with its “military neutrality”). NATO/USA also has military exercises planned for 2021 called “Defender Europe” where obviously the primary target is Russia, but this year it’s different in that NATO will deliberately emphasize doing larger and more intense military exercises in literally every country neighboring Serbia …

    Also, if Vucic/SNS were truly pro-EU/pro-NATO/pro-USA why isn’t Serbia fully “integrated” into EU/NATO structures even though it’s “part of Europe”?

    It’s one thing for Vucic to state “Serbia is on the European path” while in reality he is doing his absolute best to maximize Serbia’s relationship and closeness to Russia and China. After all, this farce is increasingly coming to an end soon anyway (this bitch partly reacted like this because Serbia voted for Crimea being part of Russia in the recent UN General Assembly vote):

    Much more importantly, all the pathological Serb haters of the USA (Jews and Liberals) have gathered together to publicly declare their US imperial goals to “finish Serbs off” once Biden comes to power (Amazingly enough it involves getting the criminal Jew bitch Madeleine Albright to replace Richard Grenell as special “mediator” between Serbia and Kosovo, way to get Serbia to recognize Kosovo lol).

    Believe I mentioned it previously, but the most dangerous thing coming for Serbs is in Bosnia-Herzegovina where the Jew Daniel Serwer has stated his plans to end the existence of Republika Srpska (RS) by stationing hundreds of US military soldiers in Brcko (cuck Milosevic surrendered this in Dayton, although perhaps he may not have had any better options during Dayton negotiations in hindsight) where RS could be extinguished following sanctions and splitting RS in half (Brcko is effectively a vital corridor between East and West Republika Srpska), or the USA resorts to raw and overwhelming military force like in 1999 against Serbs or Middle East military invasion/occupation. Once Republika Srpska is eliminated and Bosnia is annexed into NATO, Bosnia will become a fully fledged Islamic State and inhospitable shithole for its Serb and Croat populations whose status will be degraded or they will leave/be forced to because they don’t want to live under a full fledged Islamic Caliphate/Sharia for Christians/etc. (Islamic SDA party-Bakir Izetbegovic openly declared earlier this year their party plan to centralize Bosnia into 5 unitary sub regions ruled by Muslims from Sarajevo) All of this will pass of course, without obstacles in Western public opinion because “Serbs are bad”, “Srebrenica Genocide”, “Bosnian Genocide” and so on. This will all most probably go down like Austria-Hungary’s annexation of Bosnia in 1908 where even though the Empire Serbs were up against was seriously divided and clearly in decline, they simply couldn’t do anything about the annexation because it was still too large and powerful compared to Serbs …

    Could be wrong, but I think things will probably be fine in the end for Serbs in Montenegro (they just came to a sort of modus vivendi in this NATO member state where they’ll accept the status quo in exchange for not being annihilated in Montenegro and being able to exist as normally as possible here) and Kosovo and Metohija (there’s simply no way to force Serbia to recognize and legitimize the theft of Kosovo and Metohija) because, besides the salivating at the prospect of triumphantly eliminating Republika Srpska and fully annexing Bosnia into NATO, the Balkans is simply too low priority for the upcoming Biden Administration.

    What’s interesting and Karlin clearly didn’t notice is that Sergei Lavrov just finished a visit to the Balkans region, Republika Srpska, Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia. The reactions to his visit are absolutely hilarious. The fact that Zeljko Komsic (Croat member of Bosnia presidency, but a Muslim puppet) and Sefik Dzaferovic (Muslim member of Bosnia presidency) decided to cancel on meeting with Lavrov (supposedly because Lavrov disrespected Bosnia’s institutions LMAO) is going to go down in the history books. In reality, all Lavrov did in his visit was reaffirm and openly call for respect of the peace treaties of the Balkans signed in the 1990’s by all sides, mostly made and crafted by the USA itself, that is, the 1995 Treaty of Dayton (ended war in Bosnia) and 1999 Treaty of Kumanovo (ended war in Kosovo). Although this is good news because it shows that Serb interests are becoming a higher priority for the Kremlin, I don’t think this will be enough to stave off the sinister plans for the abolition of Republika Srpska by the US military coming in 2021 …

    The big problem here is that the USA has been relentlessly revising these peace treaties to the detriment of Serbs and in favor of Bosniaks and Albanians ever since they were signed. USA is relentlessly pursuing a strategy of aggressive NATO expansion in the Balkans and artificially making serious efforts to privilege and ensure the triumph of Islam in the Balkans because of Jewish and Liberal ideologues fanatically committed to “Serbs are bad” and “Serbs are evil genocide perpetrators that must be crushed no matter what it takes”/whatever narratives …

    Vučić certainly isn’t going to be leading any tank columns into Pristina.

    Wouldn’t be so sure about rejecting this possibility (of course, this means full blown Middle East level war with NATO, so Serbia’s only option would be maximum all-or nothing escalation in this scenario). Vucic has publicly promised Serbs on multiple occasions that there won’t be another exodus/pogrom/ethnic cleansing of Serbs ever again. It’s unimaginable for Serbia to simply stand by and again endure something like the March 2004 pogrom of Serbs on Kosovo-Metohija because back then there was a window of opportunity for the Serbian Army to return to Kosovo, but it was missed because Serbia was weak, corrupt and ruled by traitors back then.

    All in all, Karlin knows what he’s on about. Serbia is indeed “Down but not out”. And it will definitely stay like this for at least the next few years (just look at how big of a stake and obsession so many different actors have in keeping Serbs down, and destroying Serbs if they could ideally), if not even longer.

    Defend Republika Srpska!

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
  38. @Tony
    87% think chinese influence is positive? WTF. These Serbs need to get their minds right.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Showmethereal, @Gorgeous George

    How about you focus yourself on winning the Senate elections upcoming this January in the USA to prevent Joe Biden’s administration from having absolute control over both US internal and foreign policy?

    Or are Trump fans too cucked to be able to even achieve this?

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @TheTotallyAnonymous



    Or are Trump fans too cucked to be able to even achieve this?

     

    Depends on whether they are the ones counting the votes, basically.
  39. @Rahan
    @128


    Well if Russia really cares they will sign a customs union with Serbia and a Schengen agreement.
     
    A Shoygu agreement, heh.

    Serbia could qualify to be "Belarus 2", if it made its peace with the lost territories, and not be a potential crisis center like Armenia is vis-a-vis Azerbaijan and Turkey.
    Russia could do with another Belarus, but doesn't really need another Armenia, in this sense.

    Or who knows. Maybe it's the opposite. Maybe Moscow will get Serbia to commit to fuse with the Serbian half of Bosnia, and once that's done and Serbia is shunned by "the Free World", then it'll have nowhere else to go but into the Kremlin's brotherly embrace. And Beijing's comradely hug too.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Someone clearly isn’t aware that Serbia signed a free trade agreement with Russia’s EEU.

    In fact, Serbia is the only country in the world that has a free trade agreement with Russia, Turkey and the EU.

    So much ignorance and lack of knowledge about Serbia/Balkans in the comments sections. Although that’s understandable because most people don’t really care and most literally don’t bother to do any basic reading whatsoever. Although the problem is when they give obnoxious opinions even though they don’t know much of anything. Even worse when these opinions actually matter because they can make the difference whether Serbs get bombed or not, just like in the 1990’s …

    • Agree: Blinky Bill, Rahan
    • Replies: @Rahan
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Vietnam and Iran too; free trade agreements with the Eurasia Union.
    But not a quasi-federation yet.
    It would be fun to see an actual Eurasia Union member to pop up in the Balkans. Or, for that matter, the Middle East...

  40. May not be entirely relevant, but I don’t want to wait for the next Open Thread.

    [MORE]

    Anatoliy does ‘research’ on his topics, and yet he researches topics in such a way that they fulfill his biases – namely those of ‘evil sovok’s’ that ruined russia and killed the Tsar that Did Nothing Wrong. Nevermind the fact that numerous Tsarist contemporaries like the Brusilov, and others where pro-Bolshevik and many White officers ended up supporting the Bolshevik or Socialist cause. Not only that Anatoliy claims the ‘sovoks’ where ‘inept’ compared to the glorious and wise Tsar – and yet totally ignores facts of history – that Russia was woefully unprepared for WW1 and lost TWO armies to the numerically inferior German Army, because it had a lack of supplies, industry and was generally ineffective in war against European powers. This explains Russian war weariness and was a contributing factor to the collapse of the Tsarist regieme in 1917. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_entry_into_World_War_I#Military_weakness) The new Soviet leadership realized that WW1 was unwinnable for Russia (not due to some plot to support Germany as Anatoliy and his cronies believe). In fact the situation was so bad that the Russian Imperial economy had almost collapsed under the demands of the War:

    [quote]
    Russian economy had nearly collapsed under the strain of the war effort

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk
    [/quote]

    Not only could the Tsarist regieme supply troops, It could not feed its population properly – which led to the February Revolution:

    [quote]
    The large numbers of war casualties and persistent food shortages in the major urban centers brought about civil unrest, known as the February Revolution

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk

    [/quote]

    And before Karlin continues to shill for the Tsar, lets look at the Karensky Offensive, which was a disaster and a gross mismanagement of the Provisional government (meaning both the Tsarist Government and the Provisional Government where inept). So that safely disbands the myth that AK propogates of the Soviets being somehow more inept than the Tsarist Imperial regieme (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerensky_Offensive).

    There is also the matter of railways and industry which in the case of the former was woefully underdeveloped, which meant Russian troops from Vladivostok and other parts of the Empire could not reach the front (or had to travel about 6000 kms), and that German UBoats (that Russia could not combat) in the Baltic and Ottoman control of the Dardanelles (which successive Tsarist government could not wrest from the hands of the Turks) prevented raw materials from reaching Russia and feeding puny Russian industry(https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/ztyk87h/revision/4). Not only that, Russia had not modernised its armaments and continued to rely on a feudal system of agriculture that was far behind what was found in the rest of Europe. There was nothing, other than the ineptness of the Tsarist system, preventing Russia’s agricultural modernisation (which ironically was enacted by the Soviets to eliminate all forms of famine thereafter) (https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/ztyk87h/revision/5). In fact, the peasants popularly supported the policies of the Socialist parties, not the policies of the Tsar or the Provisional Government, that they saw as a continuation of Tsarist Conservatism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Provisional_Government#Legislative_policies_and_problems)

    Furthermore, if we assume that the Tsar was effective and ‘great’ and would have led Russia to a bright future unlike the “inept” Soviets, then why was there constant revolutions and revolutionary movements that just kept getting out of hand? Obviously the people where unhappy which led to the 1905 Revolutions (https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zwxv34j/revision/1), the December Revolution, the February Revolutions and later the October Revolution.

    Next, before Anatoliy begins to shill for how effective the Provisional Government was (compared to the “inept sovoks”), lets look at what Harold Whitmore Williams had to say about it: “eight months during which Russia was ruled by the Provisional Government was the history of the steady and systematic disorganization of the army” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Provisional_Government) which ultimately led to the travesty that was the Kerensky Offensive and allowed for the dominance of the Bolshevik’s in the first place. In fact the Provisional Government was so inept, that it was ” The Provisional Government was unable to make decisive policy decisions due to political factionalism and a breakdown of state structures” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Provisional_Government). The Provisional Government waffled on the status of the Tsar compared to that of the Petrograd Soviet, which was seen as a institution fighting for democracy and seen as far more effective than the ‘effective Tsar’s’ (as AK shills). In fact unlike the Provisional government the Petrograd Soviet (and then the Bolshevik’s themselves) recognized that the Russian people where against war, and the idea by the Bolshevik’s to exit the war had popular support (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Provisional_Government#April_Crisis). In fact, the Petrograd Soviet was so effective, it arose as a competing system to that of the Provisional Government and was so effective it soon took control of the railroads, telegraphs, factories, etc and became the de facto ruler or Russia despite not having the recognized power of the Provisional Government.

    Before AK goes, “but if muh lenin never came to power we’d see the Provisional Government lead us to greatness!!1!” The Provisional government itself promoted seperation of Church and State (which would’ve seen a weakning of the Church’s power anyway – as it did under the Soviets), and most of the local Soviets in rural areas, refused to obey many laws the Provisional government passed, so whether the Bolshevik’s came to power or not remains irrelevant as the way the people’s ideology shifted (away from the tenents of Tsarism), would have led to resistance to the Provisional government anyway.

    Another favorite of Ak’s arguments is that “but muh Lenin caused the revolution and he was a Gewrmahn Agent!1!” This is false. Revolution was already brewing (as I showed earlier) in Russia because of the social conditions and general ineptitude of the Tsarist regieme. Lenin himself was caught off guard by the February Revolution. During that time there were many Revolutionary movements in Russia – it was simply the effectiveness of the Bolshevik organization, and the fact that Lenin recognized popular sentiment about ending famine and war that catapulted him to power (https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gj05g6/would_a_russian_revolution_happen_if_germany/).

    Next, the Red Army itself had about 700 Tsarist Generals, and half of its officer corps had served in the Tsarist Army. Some 50,000 to 60,000 Tsarist Cadre ended up working for the RKKA against the Whites. Combined with phenomenal organizational ability of Trotsky this led to victory against the Whites, even in face of external support from Britain, France and USA. If anything this speaks of the incredibly effective Soviet leadership.

    The Soviet leadership itself (Lenin and Trotsky themselves) recognized (as did Marx himself) that Capitalism could be effective and innovative and so implemented NEP in response to that. But also their initial economic goals where modest – namely to reverse the ineptiude of the Tsarist regieme and restore food to the population. They also realized they needed to catch up to the rest of Europe in about 10 years – which led to Stalin’s Centrally Planned Economy (that continues to work remarkably effectively in China with minor modifications – I’d compare it as a fusion of Lenin’s NEP and Stalin’s Central Planning). This further speaks of the Communists effectiveness (https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/j8d8h5/lenins_new_economic_policy_after_the_ravages_of/)

    Another favorite of Ak’s (and his stooges) critiques lies in their screams of “but muh evull bolshevik’s killed people !!1!” – this happened because of the nature of revolution itself and the need to rebuild the entire state and beauracracy from the ground up. There is no compromise, or anything that can convince existing power structures (for the most part) to peacefully obey a revolutionary government. This explains it best: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/jzh0r7/the_communist_manifesto_was_written_as_a_critique/gdexp5s/

    What we saw under the Soviet system was the creation of one of the most effective schooling systems at that time (to be used and improved in modern China leading to incredibly effective middle and high school education) (explained here: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/k3slgh/what_was_education_policy_like_at_the_soviet/).

    The Communists created numerous innovations beginning from making the first records of humanity flying into space, to developing the first computer operated space shuttles, to calculating and producing the first idea of an internet BEFORE it became an idea in the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OGAS), to creating the first LED lights and numerous other inventions. In fact the ‘inept’ Soviets were able to preside over the administration and development of far flung regions (in the arctic or even deep in Siberia), which the current Russian administration cannot do – as we see in the general poverty of Russian provinces. The ‘inept’ “sovoks” had produced some of the greatest scientific works in Russian history as well as had a Scientific output much higher than the current ‘non-sovok’ Russia can produce. Hell, it took the RF 30 years to reach the level of automobile production of the Soviet Union at its peak that had inferior machine tools and processes for production, which is a ‘sad’ state of affairs for Russian capitalism itself. In fact, we can say capitalism in Russia has been a disaster and may end up in the destruction of the Russian state as a whole.

    Another favorite argument of AK’s stooges is ‘muh Robert Conquest told of us the Holodomor’. Never mind the fact that he worked for the CIA and was used to write propaganda pieces for them (as indicated here: http://www.mariosousa.se/LiesconcerningthehistoryoftheSovietUnion.html, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Conquest#Foreign_Office). That should say enough on its own.

    This post is getting long and I’m getting tired. The moral of the story is this – Anatoliy Karlin is an anti-Soviet shill. He likes to pretend that he does research (perhaps he does), but he is entirely biased in his approach to the Soviet period of Russian history (which is not surprising as he was raised on US media and cold war era propaganda – which he has imbibed unquestioningly) (https://www.e-ir.info/2012/08/16/u-s-propaganda-and-the-cultural-cold-war/). So i propose that whenever AK uses the word ‘sovok’ we instantly disregard his post as more american (or anti-Russian) propaganda, because he is entirely not objective on the Soviet period of history, untruthfully glorifies the Tsarist era and produces false narratives and sophistry to describe communism in general (for example citing the Cultural Revolution as ‘communist craziness’ and yet totally ignoring the devotion that Deng Xiaoping (and even XiJinping) had for the Cultural Revolution and the role it played in the creation of the powerful economic beast that is modern China as well as the persistence of the ‘commie’ central planning apparatus in modern china or soviet institutions like the chinese education system).

    So I think we’ve established quite clearly that AK is a shill.

    • Agree: FB
  41. @Art Deco
    Serbia would be well advised to forget about Kosovo except for attempting to arrange for the transfer of some border municipalities and historic sites. When your core territories have a population of just north of 7 million, you don't benefit from having a glob of 1.8 million discontented Albanians appended to you. A more sensible goal would be incorporating the Republika Srpska into Serbia proper.

    Replies: @Cyrano, @Korenchkin, @Gorgeous George

    This is what I would say to that: The Ottoman empire lasted 500 years. Second longest lasting empire in history – after the Roman empire – which stands at 1000 years. I am not sure about Egypt, but I don’t think it was competitive with the above 2.

    Anyway, the point is, Serbia outlasted the Ottoman empire, eventually gained freedom – with Kosovo being part of it. I am willing to bet that Serbia will outlast the current “Ottomans”, the ones across the ocean. I don’t see them lasting 500 years, let alone a 1000. I would be surprised if they outlast even Biden.

    The point is, Serbs are patient people, they waited for the Turks to get out of the Balkans – with a little bit of Russian help, and enjoyed some breathing space for a while. The times are calling for patience again, and in a short period of time, things will probably rearrange themselves in the Balkans, maybe even favoring the Serbs a little bit. They deserve a break.

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @128
    @Cyrano

    Well the Chinese lasted for 4000 years.

    , @Art Deco
    @Cyrano

    Your point is what?

    Replies: @Cyrano

  42. @Korenchkin
    @Matt Forney

    Russo-Serbian relations improved greatly under Vučić
    Most obviously there were zero Russo-Serbian military drills before him

    Serbia cannot cut itself off form the EU for the same reason Mexico can't cut itself off from the US, only the imbalance is even worse here

    It was under his rule that the attitude towards the EU, China and Russia shifted

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Memories are short and selective 🙂

    Vucic is merely a centrist opportunist who is willing to do whatever to stay in power. He doesn’t have an ideological core and you’re just wishfully ascribing motives to someone who is an empty shell.

    What has happened since 2014 is that the EU became exposed for being a toothless subcolonial entity of the US empire, whereas the rise of China has been unrelenting. Balkanoid publics have been paying attention to this. Vucic has merely been in power as a structural shift took place, which would happen regardless of who was in his seat.

    There’s also the question of emigration. Serbia is seeing the emigration of its relatively more liberal elements, especially at the top end of the cognitive spectrum, and this leads to a political vacuum for liberals. Again, structural forces.

    Finally, China has been showering balkanoids with BRI loans whereas EU grants have been a more mixed bag. But geography cannot be escaped, which is why whoever is in power will appease the US and its subcolonial entity called the EU. Serbia’s trade and investment is overwhelmingly coming from there. This is Fatt Horney’s point. And he’s right just this once.

    Serbia will continue to be on a leash on behalf of greater powers. Insofar as this could change, it will be because of a re-ordering of great powers, not because of anything Serbia itself can do. It will remain what it always was: a passive chess piece of great power politics.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Thulean Friend


    Vucic is merely a centrist opportunist who is willing to do whatever to stay in power. He doesn’t have an ideological core and you’re just wishfully ascribing motives to someone who is an empty shell.

     

    Bold statement by someone who clearly knows absolutely nothing about Aleksander Vucic.

    Aleksander Vucic was a hardcore Serb nationalist during the 1990's wars (just take a look at his public statements from this time period). There's also the fact that Aleksander Vucic personally knows the Russian language (demonstrated at his meetings with Putin) and that he deliberately chose to educate his son in Russia.

    Vucic/SNS "pro-Europeanism" has simply been an unfortunate geopolitical necessity for him to even get into power back in 2012/2014 and buy time for Serbia to pursue policies of Serbia's economic and demographic recovery (Vucic's primary goal he openly stated this year in a speech on the 25th anniversary of Operation Storm), strengthening in other categories (e.g military) and survive all the issues Serbs face in the wider region (Kosovo, Bosnia, Montenegro, etc).

    The part about "pro-Europeanism" being necessary for Vucic to get into power in Serbia to begin with back in 2012 is absolutely vital. In 2008 the Serb nationalist SRS (legit nationalists compared to cuck Milosevic) got the most votes in the parliamentary elections and was supposed to get a majority in the parliament. However, the Liberal-Croat Democratic Party led by the ethnic Jew Boris Tadic teamed with even Milosevic's former SPS (Socialist Party of Serbia) to deny nationalists from gaining power in Serbia. Literally, Serbia's government in 2008 was produced in the embassies of the USA, UK and Germany where everything was made so that anti-EU/NATO nationalists would not get to power in Serbia. After this, Vucic led a split in the SRS to create the SNS because his team realized that there was absolutely no other way they would be allowed to get into power in Serbia than by having to pretend to be "Pro-European". Tomislav Nikolic was the leader at first but Vucic replaced him, because Nikolic simply wasn't good enough at hiding his genuine Serb nationalism and publicly swallowing/faking so much EU/NATO/Euroatlantic bullshit.

    Clearly the time of this fakery is rapidly coming to an end, especially as Republika Srpska has already been declared as a red flag to be annihilated for Biden's upcoming administration ...


    But geography cannot be escaped, which is why whoever is in power will appease the US and its subcolonial entity called the EU.
     
    Vucic tried to negotiate a more favorable settlement for Serbs with the Trump administration (all that came out of that was a weird, bizarre and non-binding agreement in Washington) but that's clearly not an option anymore because Joe Biden's administration has very evil plans coming for Serbs. No amount of appeasement will change the desire of Biden's administration to annex everything in the Balkans into NATO, eliminate Republika Srspska and etc.

    It will remain what it always was: a passive chess piece of great power politics.

     

    Although somewhat correct, the "passive" part here is just so dumb one doesn't even know where to start ...
    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Thulean Friend


    Memories are short and selective 🙂

     

    Maybe in Swedecuck/crypto-Indian land, but definitely not in the Balkans ...
    , @Blinky Bill
    @Thulean Friend

    You seem to have spelt the Gentlemans name incorrectly. Correct this error posthaste!

    You're vicious Thulean Friend. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

    , @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend

    Maria Zakharova (incompetent Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman) had created a scandal with the Serbian president based on this photo with Trump, by saying on Facebook that it reminded her of "Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct". Her belief in an analogy of the Serbian president, to the scene in the film, being quite mysterious.

    But what Vucic does with Trump - probably irrelevant to Russia-Serbia relations. At least, outwardly, there was no disagreement about Serbia's decision in Russia.


    https://www.facebook.com/rtklivecomen/posts/1359883844216730

    , @Korenchkin
    @Thulean Friend

    This is not the first Empire to humiliate Serb rulers, it will not be the last
    https://srbin.info/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/1-29.jpg


    Vucic is merely a centrist opportunist who is willing to do whatever to stay in power. He doesn’t have an ideological core
     
    Even if that is true, I'm fine with it since he's still pursuing our national interest (rebuilding the military, fixing the economy, linking up with Serb entities outside of Serbia, reconnecting with Russia, giving greater influence to the SOC, etc.)
    I prefer it to a verbal Nationalist who achieves nothing tangible

    As for the inescapable geography I already addressed that in the post, I don't see why you're pretending that I'm unaware of this fact

    Serbia will continue to be on a leash on behalf of greater powers
     
    Again, never said otherwise, we simply prefer some powers over others
    These great games influence a lot but it's rather obtuse to completely disregard the leadership of statelets, look for example at Montenegro, Albania, North Macedonia or Bulgaria

    The Melians could've avoided their massacre

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

  43. @Cyrano
    @Commentator Mike

    I am typically pro-Serbian (actually I am generally, pro-Slav, unless we are talking about some real morons, which there are plenty among the Slavs), but in this case I am going to have to call it against the Serbs.

    I think that they are the original back-stabbers. In fact, I think that if you look in the dictionary under “backstabber” – chances are, you might see a picture of a Serb. I mean how could you choose Greece over Bulgaria in the 2nd Balkan War? What is wrong with those people?

    The Greeks haven’t done anything useful historically, for almost 2 millennia, and it doesn’t look like they ever will again. And yet, the Serbs choose the Greeks and back-stabbed the Bulgarians. It’s the ultimate betrayal.

    And I think it has haunted the Serbs to this day, because nothing has ever gone right for them historically after that colossal betrayal of their fellow Slavs – the Bulgarians - to make benefit the glorious nation of Greece.

    Bulgarians have one saying: Винаги с Германия, никога против Русия – which translates into: “Always with Germany, never against Russia”. And it’s the Serbs who pushed the Bulgarians into permanent alliance with the Germans, because the Germans were the only ones willing to offer Bulgaria what they wanted – the territories that they lost in the 2nd Balkan war thanks to the Serb’s betrayal.

    Despite their “alliance” with Germany, Bulgaria has hardly ever done anything useful for Germany at the expense of the Russians. There were no Bulgarian soldiers on the eastern front in WW2, Bulgarians fought the Russians in WW1, but not so much in the capacity of German allies, more in capacity of personal benefit.

    On the other hand, Russia has always been more pro-Serbian than pro-Bulgarian, I think the reason being is that the Serbs are more passionate Russian butt-kissers (not that there is anything wrong with it), then the Bulgarians. The Serbs just put so much emotion into it, that they are hard to resist.

    The only Russian (Soviet) leader who has ever made the right call in the Bulgarian-Serbian dispute, was actually Stalin. He said that the territories that Bulgaria lost thanks to the Serbian back-stabbing, logically belong to Bulgaria – but even he didn’t do anything to make that territorial redistribution happen in the Balkans, because he didn’t wanted to offend the Serbs. The bottom line is: The Serbs made a huge mistake in the 2nd Balkan war, and forever screwed up the Balkan dynamics – unfortunately not in their favor, probably not in anybody’s favor, as far as the Slavs are concerned.

    Replies: @Commentator Mike, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Gorgeous George

    I think that they are the original back-stabbers. In fact, I think that if you look in the dictionary under “backstabber” – chances are, you might see a picture of a Serb. I mean how could you choose Greece over Bulgaria in the 2nd Balkan War? What is wrong with those people?

    The Greeks haven’t done anything useful historically, for almost 2 millennia, and it doesn’t look like they ever will again. And yet, the Serbs choose the Greeks and back-stabbed the Bulgarians. It’s the ultimate betrayal.

    And I think it has haunted the Serbs to this day, because nothing has ever gone right for them historically after that colossal betrayal of their fellow Slavs – the Bulgarians – to make benefit the glorious nation of Greece.

    Let’s clear the historical record here once and for all.

    Bulgaria dishonored its treaty obligations towards Serbia in the 1st Balkan War and after it ended.

    – Bulgaria refused to send a single soldier to help Serbs fight against Ottomans in Vardar Macedonia (understandable, but still a breach of pre-war treaty obligations)
    – MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY, Bulgaria refused to honor its treaty obligation with Serbia to defend it against any attack by any foreign powers, be it Ottoman Empire or Austria-Hungary.
    – This is why Albania even exists as a country because Bulgaria refused to go to war to defend Serbia from an ultimatum by all the combined West European great powers to Serbia ordering it to retreat from Albania, that it had to submit to in 1913. In fact, Bulgaria bears a large amount of fault for the fact that Albania even exists as a country at all …
    – It was Bulgaria that attacked Serbia and began the 2nd Balkan War. Bulgaria attacked Serbia because it thought it could get and even deserves “ancient Bulgarian Macedonia” by attacking its Serb allies army encampment in Bregalnica in the middle of the night hoping to slaughter it’s allies while they’re all asleep. This failed and Serbs managed to successfully fight back, together with Greece. Bulgarian Tsar Ferdinand I (his Germanic heritage clearly has a lot to do with why Bulgaria allowed Albania’s creation) is also on the record as stating something along the lines of “Serbs don’t deserve to exist” …
    – For these reasons Serbs refused to cede Vardar Macedonia that was hard won in many battles against the Ottoman Empire in the 1st Balkan War. True, a breach of treaty obligations by Serbia, although completely understandable given Bulgarian behavior.

    Imprint the above firmly into your head. They are objective truths and facts that Bulgarians are clearly oblivious about.

    Otherwise yes, you are correct about other things. Serbs and Bulgarians shouldn’t fight each other, especially when they have so many other much more important problems than each other right now..

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    In fact, Bulgaria bears a large amount of fault for the fact that Albania even exists as a country at all …
     
    Why would you want to rule over so many Albanians in the first place? Let them have it, I don't understand your logic at all.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @TheTotallyAnonymous

  44. @Thulean Friend
    @Korenchkin

    Memories are short and selective :)

    https://i.imgur.com/MZLc8ny.jpg

    Vucic is merely a centrist opportunist who is willing to do whatever to stay in power. He doesn't have an ideological core and you're just wishfully ascribing motives to someone who is an empty shell.

    What has happened since 2014 is that the EU became exposed for being a toothless subcolonial entity of the US empire, whereas the rise of China has been unrelenting. Balkanoid publics have been paying attention to this. Vucic has merely been in power as a structural shift took place, which would happen regardless of who was in his seat.

    There's also the question of emigration. Serbia is seeing the emigration of its relatively more liberal elements, especially at the top end of the cognitive spectrum, and this leads to a political vacuum for liberals. Again, structural forces.

    Finally, China has been showering balkanoids with BRI loans whereas EU grants have been a more mixed bag. But geography cannot be escaped, which is why whoever is in power will appease the US and its subcolonial entity called the EU. Serbia's trade and investment is overwhelmingly coming from there. This is Fatt Horney's point. And he's right just this once.

    Serbia will continue to be on a leash on behalf of greater powers. Insofar as this could change, it will be because of a re-ordering of great powers, not because of anything Serbia itself can do. It will remain what it always was: a passive chess piece of great power politics.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Blinky Bill, @Dmitry, @Korenchkin

    Vucic is merely a centrist opportunist who is willing to do whatever to stay in power. He doesn’t have an ideological core and you’re just wishfully ascribing motives to someone who is an empty shell.

    Bold statement by someone who clearly knows absolutely nothing about Aleksander Vucic.

    Aleksander Vucic was a hardcore Serb nationalist during the 1990’s wars (just take a look at his public statements from this time period). There’s also the fact that Aleksander Vucic personally knows the Russian language (demonstrated at his meetings with Putin) and that he deliberately chose to educate his son in Russia.

    Vucic/SNS “pro-Europeanism” has simply been an unfortunate geopolitical necessity for him to even get into power back in 2012/2014 and buy time for Serbia to pursue policies of Serbia’s economic and demographic recovery (Vucic’s primary goal he openly stated this year in a speech on the 25th anniversary of Operation Storm), strengthening in other categories (e.g military) and survive all the issues Serbs face in the wider region (Kosovo, Bosnia, Montenegro, etc).

    The part about “pro-Europeanism” being necessary for Vucic to get into power in Serbia to begin with back in 2012 is absolutely vital. In 2008 the Serb nationalist SRS (legit nationalists compared to cuck Milosevic) got the most votes in the parliamentary elections and was supposed to get a majority in the parliament. However, the Liberal-Croat Democratic Party led by the ethnic Jew Boris Tadic teamed with even Milosevic’s former SPS (Socialist Party of Serbia) to deny nationalists from gaining power in Serbia. Literally, Serbia’s government in 2008 was produced in the embassies of the USA, UK and Germany where everything was made so that anti-EU/NATO nationalists would not get to power in Serbia. After this, Vucic led a split in the SRS to create the SNS because his team realized that there was absolutely no other way they would be allowed to get into power in Serbia than by having to pretend to be “Pro-European”. Tomislav Nikolic was the leader at first but Vucic replaced him, because Nikolic simply wasn’t good enough at hiding his genuine Serb nationalism and publicly swallowing/faking so much EU/NATO/Euroatlantic bullshit.

    Clearly the time of this fakery is rapidly coming to an end, especially as Republika Srpska has already been declared as a red flag to be annihilated for Biden’s upcoming administration …

    But geography cannot be escaped, which is why whoever is in power will appease the US and its subcolonial entity called the EU.

    Vucic tried to negotiate a more favorable settlement for Serbs with the Trump administration (all that came out of that was a weird, bizarre and non-binding agreement in Washington) but that’s clearly not an option anymore because Joe Biden’s administration has very evil plans coming for Serbs. No amount of appeasement will change the desire of Biden’s administration to annex everything in the Balkans into NATO, eliminate Republika Srspska and etc.

    It will remain what it always was: a passive chess piece of great power politics.

    Although somewhat correct, the “passive” part here is just so dumb one doesn’t even know where to start …

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
  45. @Thulean Friend
    @Korenchkin

    Memories are short and selective :)

    https://i.imgur.com/MZLc8ny.jpg

    Vucic is merely a centrist opportunist who is willing to do whatever to stay in power. He doesn't have an ideological core and you're just wishfully ascribing motives to someone who is an empty shell.

    What has happened since 2014 is that the EU became exposed for being a toothless subcolonial entity of the US empire, whereas the rise of China has been unrelenting. Balkanoid publics have been paying attention to this. Vucic has merely been in power as a structural shift took place, which would happen regardless of who was in his seat.

    There's also the question of emigration. Serbia is seeing the emigration of its relatively more liberal elements, especially at the top end of the cognitive spectrum, and this leads to a political vacuum for liberals. Again, structural forces.

    Finally, China has been showering balkanoids with BRI loans whereas EU grants have been a more mixed bag. But geography cannot be escaped, which is why whoever is in power will appease the US and its subcolonial entity called the EU. Serbia's trade and investment is overwhelmingly coming from there. This is Fatt Horney's point. And he's right just this once.

    Serbia will continue to be on a leash on behalf of greater powers. Insofar as this could change, it will be because of a re-ordering of great powers, not because of anything Serbia itself can do. It will remain what it always was: a passive chess piece of great power politics.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Blinky Bill, @Dmitry, @Korenchkin

    Memories are short and selective 🙂

    Maybe in Swedecuck/crypto-Indian land, but definitely not in the Balkans …

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  46. @Thulean Friend
    @Korenchkin

    Memories are short and selective :)

    https://i.imgur.com/MZLc8ny.jpg

    Vucic is merely a centrist opportunist who is willing to do whatever to stay in power. He doesn't have an ideological core and you're just wishfully ascribing motives to someone who is an empty shell.

    What has happened since 2014 is that the EU became exposed for being a toothless subcolonial entity of the US empire, whereas the rise of China has been unrelenting. Balkanoid publics have been paying attention to this. Vucic has merely been in power as a structural shift took place, which would happen regardless of who was in his seat.

    There's also the question of emigration. Serbia is seeing the emigration of its relatively more liberal elements, especially at the top end of the cognitive spectrum, and this leads to a political vacuum for liberals. Again, structural forces.

    Finally, China has been showering balkanoids with BRI loans whereas EU grants have been a more mixed bag. But geography cannot be escaped, which is why whoever is in power will appease the US and its subcolonial entity called the EU. Serbia's trade and investment is overwhelmingly coming from there. This is Fatt Horney's point. And he's right just this once.

    Serbia will continue to be on a leash on behalf of greater powers. Insofar as this could change, it will be because of a re-ordering of great powers, not because of anything Serbia itself can do. It will remain what it always was: a passive chess piece of great power politics.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Blinky Bill, @Dmitry, @Korenchkin

    You seem to have spelt the Gentlemans name incorrectly. Correct this error posthaste!

    [MORE]

    You’re vicious Thulean Friend. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

  47. @Matt Forney
    And yet despite Serbian Russophilia, every time they go to the polls, they elect pro-U.S./pro-E.U./pro-NATO governments (most recently this spring, when SNS won an outright majority because the opposition couldn't be bothered to participate).

    Revealed preference. Serbs don't actually care enough to act on their Russophilia. Getting rid of their government would be priority one on this front because Vučić certainly isn't going to be leading any tank columns into Pristina.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Denis, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Mr. XYZ, @Roda, @Svevlad

    Tank columns are SO 20th century! The 21st century is all about non-recognition.

  48. @Thulean Friend
    @Korenchkin

    Memories are short and selective :)

    https://i.imgur.com/MZLc8ny.jpg

    Vucic is merely a centrist opportunist who is willing to do whatever to stay in power. He doesn't have an ideological core and you're just wishfully ascribing motives to someone who is an empty shell.

    What has happened since 2014 is that the EU became exposed for being a toothless subcolonial entity of the US empire, whereas the rise of China has been unrelenting. Balkanoid publics have been paying attention to this. Vucic has merely been in power as a structural shift took place, which would happen regardless of who was in his seat.

    There's also the question of emigration. Serbia is seeing the emigration of its relatively more liberal elements, especially at the top end of the cognitive spectrum, and this leads to a political vacuum for liberals. Again, structural forces.

    Finally, China has been showering balkanoids with BRI loans whereas EU grants have been a more mixed bag. But geography cannot be escaped, which is why whoever is in power will appease the US and its subcolonial entity called the EU. Serbia's trade and investment is overwhelmingly coming from there. This is Fatt Horney's point. And he's right just this once.

    Serbia will continue to be on a leash on behalf of greater powers. Insofar as this could change, it will be because of a re-ordering of great powers, not because of anything Serbia itself can do. It will remain what it always was: a passive chess piece of great power politics.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Blinky Bill, @Dmitry, @Korenchkin

    Maria Zakharova (incompetent Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman) had created a scandal with the Serbian president based on this photo with Trump, by saying on Facebook that it reminded her of “Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct”. Her belief in an analogy of the Serbian president, to the scene in the film, being quite mysterious.

    But what Vucic does with Trump – probably irrelevant to Russia-Serbia relations. At least, outwardly, there was no disagreement about Serbia’s decision in Russia.

    https://www.facebook.com/rtklivecomen/posts/1359883844216730

  49. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Tony

    How about you focus yourself on winning the Senate elections upcoming this January in the USA to prevent Joe Biden's administration from having absolute control over both US internal and foreign policy?

    Or are Trump fans too cucked to be able to even achieve this?

    Replies: @Pericles

    Or are Trump fans too cucked to be able to even achieve this?

    Depends on whether they are the ones counting the votes, basically.

  50. @Matt Forney
    And yet despite Serbian Russophilia, every time they go to the polls, they elect pro-U.S./pro-E.U./pro-NATO governments (most recently this spring, when SNS won an outright majority because the opposition couldn't be bothered to participate).

    Revealed preference. Serbs don't actually care enough to act on their Russophilia. Getting rid of their government would be priority one on this front because Vučić certainly isn't going to be leading any tank columns into Pristina.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Denis, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Mr. XYZ, @Roda, @Svevlad

    Dominion has an office in Belgrade, right?
    So, polls, elections, democracy… overrated…
    Vučić was elected same as Biden was.
    Media + Domion = pretty election win

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  51. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Rahan

    Someone clearly isn't aware that Serbia signed a free trade agreement with Russia's EEU.

    In fact, Serbia is the only country in the world that has a free trade agreement with Russia, Turkey and the EU.

    So much ignorance and lack of knowledge about Serbia/Balkans in the comments sections. Although that's understandable because most people don't really care and most literally don't bother to do any basic reading whatsoever. Although the problem is when they give obnoxious opinions even though they don't know much of anything. Even worse when these opinions actually matter because they can make the difference whether Serbs get bombed or not, just like in the 1990's ...

    Replies: @Rahan

    Vietnam and Iran too; free trade agreements with the Eurasia Union.
    But not a quasi-federation yet.
    It would be fun to see an actual Eurasia Union member to pop up in the Balkans. Or, for that matter, the Middle East…

  52. @Cyrano
    @Art Deco

    This is what I would say to that: The Ottoman empire lasted 500 years. Second longest lasting empire in history – after the Roman empire - which stands at 1000 years. I am not sure about Egypt, but I don’t think it was competitive with the above 2.

    Anyway, the point is, Serbia outlasted the Ottoman empire, eventually gained freedom - with Kosovo being part of it. I am willing to bet that Serbia will outlast the current “Ottomans”, the ones across the ocean. I don’t see them lasting 500 years, let alone a 1000. I would be surprised if they outlast even Biden.

    The point is, Serbs are patient people, they waited for the Turks to get out of the Balkans – with a little bit of Russian help, and enjoyed some breathing space for a while. The times are calling for patience again, and in a short period of time, things will probably rearrange themselves in the Balkans, maybe even favoring the Serbs a little bit. They deserve a break.

    Replies: @128, @Art Deco

    Well the Chinese lasted for 4000 years.

  53. Russia’s army did not do too badly against the best army in the world in 1815 even without the advantage of weather. Russia’s army in 1914 was not adequate against Germany (but it would have been a different story if the war had started 2 to 4 years later), but was good enough to get the job done against the Turks, or any other nation in Europe except for Germany.

    • Replies: @AP
    @128

    Correct but Russia would have needed 10 years (at least) to take on Germany, not 2-4.

  54. @Thulean Friend
    @Korenchkin

    Memories are short and selective :)

    https://i.imgur.com/MZLc8ny.jpg

    Vucic is merely a centrist opportunist who is willing to do whatever to stay in power. He doesn't have an ideological core and you're just wishfully ascribing motives to someone who is an empty shell.

    What has happened since 2014 is that the EU became exposed for being a toothless subcolonial entity of the US empire, whereas the rise of China has been unrelenting. Balkanoid publics have been paying attention to this. Vucic has merely been in power as a structural shift took place, which would happen regardless of who was in his seat.

    There's also the question of emigration. Serbia is seeing the emigration of its relatively more liberal elements, especially at the top end of the cognitive spectrum, and this leads to a political vacuum for liberals. Again, structural forces.

    Finally, China has been showering balkanoids with BRI loans whereas EU grants have been a more mixed bag. But geography cannot be escaped, which is why whoever is in power will appease the US and its subcolonial entity called the EU. Serbia's trade and investment is overwhelmingly coming from there. This is Fatt Horney's point. And he's right just this once.

    Serbia will continue to be on a leash on behalf of greater powers. Insofar as this could change, it will be because of a re-ordering of great powers, not because of anything Serbia itself can do. It will remain what it always was: a passive chess piece of great power politics.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Blinky Bill, @Dmitry, @Korenchkin

    This is not the first Empire to humiliate Serb rulers, it will not be the last

    Vucic is merely a centrist opportunist who is willing to do whatever to stay in power. He doesn’t have an ideological core

    Even if that is true, I’m fine with it since he’s still pursuing our national interest (rebuilding the military, fixing the economy, linking up with Serb entities outside of Serbia, reconnecting with Russia, giving greater influence to the SOC, etc.)
    I prefer it to a verbal Nationalist who achieves nothing tangible

    As for the inescapable geography I already addressed that in the post, I don’t see why you’re pretending that I’m unaware of this fact

    Serbia will continue to be on a leash on behalf of greater powers

    Again, never said otherwise, we simply prefer some powers over others
    These great games influence a lot but it’s rather obtuse to completely disregard the leadership of statelets, look for example at Montenegro, Albania, North Macedonia or Bulgaria

    The Melians could’ve avoided their massacre

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Korenchkin


    This is not the first Empire to humiliate Serb rulers, it will not be the last

     

    Just so all the other Serb commenters know what you’re talking about with that image, it depicts Stefan Nemanja (the 1st one), the founder of the Great Nemanjic Dynasty of Serbia being dragged on a chain/rope through the dirt (literally) by the Byzantine Greeks because he rebelled against their imperial authority (I think it happened to him at least a few times).

    I think another good example of a Serb leader being humiliated/degraded is Patriarch Arsenije Carnojevic III being imprisoned by the Habsburgs, immediately after they stopped their war with the Ottomans, in Szentendre/North Budapest because he resisted Roman Catholicism and the stomping of Serb national rights. Fortunately in that case, those were immediately restored by the Habsburgs (although undone on and off again in many different time periods) because they needed Serbs to fight against Rakoczi’s Hungarian revolt at that time.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Arsenije_III.jpg

    Anyway, I think the single most important message to fellow Serbs comes from the great Serb Saint Nikolay Velimirovich (Also based on the issues of Jews):

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/%D0%95%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BF_%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B9_%28%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87%29.JPG/440px-%D0%95%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BF_%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B9_%28%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87%29.JPG

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Ljubomir_Simonovi%C4%87_-_Vladika_Nikolaj.jpg/400px-Ljubomir_Simonovi%C4%87_-_Vladika_Nikolaj.jpg


    “The Serb nation must again become pious, unite, and multiply!” – Saint Nikolay Velimirovich

    Replies: @Commentator Mike

  55. @Art Deco
    Serbia would be well advised to forget about Kosovo except for attempting to arrange for the transfer of some border municipalities and historic sites. When your core territories have a population of just north of 7 million, you don't benefit from having a glob of 1.8 million discontented Albanians appended to you. A more sensible goal would be incorporating the Republika Srpska into Serbia proper.

    Replies: @Cyrano, @Korenchkin, @Gorgeous George

    Not going to happen, and for that matter Russians shouldn’t forget about Ukraine either

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Korenchkin

    Why shouldn't the Russian's forget about the Ukraine? The constituency for annexation by Russia in the Ukraine amounts to 4% of the population, give or take. What's in it for Russia to put such expense into stomping on Ukrainians?

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  56. @128
    Russia's army did not do too badly against the best army in the world in 1815 even without the advantage of weather. Russia's army in 1914 was not adequate against Germany (but it would have been a different story if the war had started 2 to 4 years later), but was good enough to get the job done against the Turks, or any other nation in Europe except for Germany.

    Replies: @AP

    Correct but Russia would have needed 10 years (at least) to take on Germany, not 2-4.

  57. @Europe Europa
    @128

    Black violence and dysfunction seems to be a specifically black problem rather than a general low IQ problem, low IQ is just one part of it. Also, black Americans seem to be significantly more violent and criminal than even many lower IQ blacks in various African countries.

    In general many lower IQ countries are not particularly violent, such as places like Morocco, Tunisia, India, Jordan, etc.

    Replies: @Ian Smith, @loren, @Mr. XYZ

    Africans in Africa, the Caribbean, and Europe are just as violent as American blacks, sometimes more so. They also have higher testosterone, so that may contribute.

  58. @Matt Forney
    And yet despite Serbian Russophilia, every time they go to the polls, they elect pro-U.S./pro-E.U./pro-NATO governments (most recently this spring, when SNS won an outright majority because the opposition couldn't be bothered to participate).

    Revealed preference. Serbs don't actually care enough to act on their Russophilia. Getting rid of their government would be priority one on this front because Vučić certainly isn't going to be leading any tank columns into Pristina.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Denis, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Mr. XYZ, @Roda, @Svevlad

    That’s because all parties are pro-US pro-EU (cuckoids), even those that aren’t

    The shtick is some “oh woe is me” tier propaganda to make the boomers and toothless old people vote for them while pinning all the neoliberal progressive cuck shit on the opposition

    Don’t see the solution without an extremist dictatorship that would whip them in line and violently prosecute all traitors

  59. One of these days, all these lesbo politicians will come together in one country, and they will try to kill all the male children.

  60. @128
    Well if Russia really cares they will sign a customs union with Serbia and a Schengen agreement.

    Replies: @Rahan, @RadicalCenter

    You’re right, 128, and it seems like Armenia and Serbia would both be wise to conclude such agreements with Russia soon. Perhaps also adopt the ruble as their currency or at least peg their currencies to the Ruble.

    For a more dramatic move, the outright addition of Serbia and Armenia to the RF would not significantly affect the domestic culture, ethnic makeup, or political balance of the Federation: they have tiny populations (2.9 million in Armenia and 3.2 million in Serbia) and fertility rates as low as Russia’s or worse (Armenia like Russia at 1.65, Serbia 1.46).

    Moreover, the median age of Serbians in Serbia is so high, 43.4 years old, that there won’t be many of them left in merely 35 years. Russia had better take the territory before the Turks, Kosovar Albanians, or someone else does.

  61. One additional point is that while Serbian demographics are nothing to write home about, it’s relative strength that matters, and they’re doing better than most of their relevant neighbors.

    * Croatia is in freefall due to emigration, has more people leaving for the EU despite a population base that’s almost twice smaller.
    * Albanian TFR is finally crashing, and has ejected all of the gains from it and then some into the EU.
    * Similar picture in Bosnia.
    * Kosovo has almost 2M on paper, but perhaps <1M in reality. I realize it's something Serb nationalists go on about, but looking at Albania, that might not be entirely cope. (There is no good demographics info from Kosovo that I'm aware of).

    The US obviously remains the biggest problem. But if it's attention comes to be entirely occupied with other pressing matters (e.g. China), interesting things could still happen in the Balkans.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Anatoly Karlin


    * Croatia is in freefall due to emigration, has more people leaving for the EU despite a population base that’s almost twice smaller.
     
    This is a popular wisdom that is- wrong. From the date of entrance in the EU, ca. 280,000 Croatian citizens have left (for various reasons, but mostly in "search of a dream"). Counting past 6 months, ca. 30-40% have returned (personally, I know 6 such families). Various rootless cosmopolitans didn't, but they have a different view on life.

    So- nothing of demographic disaster papers have been screaming about. In fact, last local elections in Bosnia & Herzegovina have shown that Croats have increased their presence due to heightened Muslim migration out of B & H (percentage wise, since elections in such circumstances are not more than national head-counting). Serbs have also been emigrating on a higher scale, but I cannot say how much, because I don't care.

    Anyway, there are numerous reasons for emigration to wealthier EU countries, but analyzing it would take us too far.

    , @Dmitry
    @Anatoly Karlin


    has more people leaving for the EU despite a population base that’s almost twice smaller.
     
    But Croatia is an EU member, while Serbia is not. So there cannot be comparison in this measure, as they have a different immigration regime relative to the EU. Croatia has open borders with the EU, while Serbia has somewhat still closed borders regime (Serbians have to attain some kind of working visas to live in the EU).

    If Serbia joined the EU, then open borders would follow within a few years, and we would expect a great increase in emigration. And that potential for loss of the young labour force via emigration to the EU, would be the main argument (from a Serbian national power perspective) against Serbia joining the EU.

    Serbia would have to look at the situation in Bulgaria and Croatia, and balance the economic benefits of EU membership, against the problem of losing national power by increasing emigration.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Anatoly Karlin


    * Kosovo has almost 2M on paper, but perhaps <1M in reality. I realize it's something Serb nationalists go on about, but looking at Albania, that might not be entirely cope. (There is no good demographics info from Kosovo that I'm aware of).

     

    For Kosovo numbers that give more reliable figures are things like number of registered cell phones, number of people that actually voted, and etc. This means that Serbs are at least 100,000 in Kosovo because at least 75,000 are counted in "Kosovo's" own cencuses South of the Ibar River (Serbs to the north deliberately boycott for obvious reasons although their number of voters for the Serb List party is telling) while in the largest Serb exclave/enclave of Kosovska Mitrovica/North Kosovo, there are at least 25,000 Serbs, if not more. From this it means 100,000-200,000 Serbs + anywhere between 600,000-900,000 Albanians in Kosovo (The Albanian figures are the hardest to figure out obviously).

    There is also an interesting statistic (from Twitter that I can't find now) that ethnic Balkan diasporas (in the EU, at least) mostly have significantly higher birth-rates than their co-ethnics at home (like 3+ kids on average). Probably because they have more access to money and income than at home, among other things


    The US obviously remains the biggest problem. But if it's attention comes to be entirely occupied with other pressing matters (e.g. China), interesting things could still happen in the Balkans.

     

    USA will definitely increase its focus on China since it’s clear that China is becoming more and more powerful not just relative to, but literally surpassing USA levels. Still, US imperial priorities are entirely optional and arbitrary (so it's hard to predict with 100% absolute certainty) because USA literally doesn’t have any real/legitimate national interest to concern itself with anything beyond the affairs of Canada and Mexico (and domestic affairs, of course). More US focus on Iran and China would be really ideal. I think USA attacking Iran because of Jewish Zionists is much more likely than USA attacking China (it would be more likely China attacks USA first, after successfully liberating Taiwan, or if USA tries to militarily block the Chinese liberation) because Iran is much weaker and the interest in attacking Iran is much more serious and fanatical.

    Anyway, it's clear that the USA is in irreversible decline and that it's a deeply divided society but one must be able to survive that (Republika Srpska might not be able to possibly) and then think about what to do in a post-USA world.

  62. @Dmitry

    40% consider Russia their best friend, followed by 16% for China.

     

    These kind of "opinion polls" are generally - meaningless nonsense. However, Serbian public are clearly very pro-Russian, as we can see from how they behave when Putin visits them on YouTube, that they worship him like teenage girls at the Justin Bieber concert. Serbia is the most pro-Russian Western European country - nowhere else do they support Russia like this in Europe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngOeR5vMg8A.

    The important and concretely realizable thing about Serbia from the perspective of Russian interests is TurkStream 2, and in this Serbia is clearly far more than enough pro-Russia. Public and government opposition against gas pipes only occurs in countries like Poland, where anti-Russian state sentiments reaches a high and almost unopposed level.

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

    Appreciate your points, Dmitry, but when did Serbia move into western Europe? 😉

    In any event, Serbia and Armenia will ultimately be destroyed if they don’t manage to get a formal military alliance with the Russian Federation. That might go together with Armenia and Serbia joining a thorough customs/currency/travel union with Russia (adopting the Ruble as their currency).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @RadicalCenter

    Armenia is a founding member of the Eurasian Economic Union, and it is also in the most close formal military alliance to Russia ("ODKB"). In addition, Armenia's Southern borders are patrolled everyday by Russian soldiers (which is a kind of subsidy from Russia to Armenia, as Armenia partly doesn't have to pay for defense of its Southern border).

    When we look at what is probably the main cause of the failure of Armenia's national power - it is likely to be its labour market supply Russia. Eurasian Economic Union removed the final bureaucratic barrier for Armenians to work in Russia (need to apply for work permit), and now they can freely go work in Russia, with the rights as local Russian workers, without any paperwork obstacles.

    In this context, Armenia has very high levels of emigration to the Russian Federation, when we consider these numbers relative to its population of only 3 million.

    https://i.imgur.com/HEwWd64.png

    I don't know anything about Armenia first hand, but from what I have read, that in the capital city of Armenia (Erevan), the demographic situation seems completely normal. However, in other cities of Armenia, there is a strong depopulation evident.

    In the individual perspective, depopulation can be very pleasant, as it contributes to less competition for job, less traffic and congestion, more school places, calmer atmosphere, less pollution, and better ecology and natural beauty. But of course, if we were concerned about the topic of national power projection - then depopulation is a disaster.

    This is why the more nationalist leadership of Uzbekistan had been refusing still to join Eurasian Economic Union, despite annual Russian invitation. Like Armenia, Uzbekistan is losing much of its young labour force to Russia, although the bureaucratic barrier gives at least more a temporary nature to Uzbek labour in Russia. Uzbeks have to renew their work permits, and the open borders with Russia is at informal level, rather than the formal open borders with Armenia. Although now Uzbekistan (despite more nationalist leadership post-Karimov) is saying they will also join.


    they have tiny populations (2.9 million in Armenia and 3.2 million in Serbia) and fertility

     

    Armenians are still flooding in Russia and it created usual problems (of open borders immigration) in the areas they settle massively. Although of course, the potential impact is limited by the small population. (Just Salvadoran immigrants cannot create the same impact in USA, as Mexican immigrants, due to the tiny population of El Salvador relative to Mexico.)

    Objectively, the most notable problem Armenian emigration is the reduction of Armenia's national power. Now they have a lack of balance of power with Azerbaijan, as Azerbaijan is losing its labour to Russia at less than three times smaller rates relative to its population than Armenia is.

  63. @Kent Nationalist
    @Not Only Wrathful

    The anti-americanism of European liberals is essentially the hatred of the rest of America that American 'coastal elites' have, except with even more ignorance of what America is actually like. Imagine if all you knew of America came from watching the most extremist libtard propaganda.

    I remember reading about what North Koreans say about South Korea (that it is full of crime, that people are dying in the streets for lack of healthcare, that most children cannot afford to go to school etc.) and it is mostly the same as what Europeans believe about America.

    Replies: @Supply and Demand

    You forgot to mention the circumcision cult. I used to work with NorK academics (yes, they exist) when I was at my university’s satellite campus in Dandong. They were horrified that the Americans conned the Southerners into doing genital mutilation — which in ancient Korea was punishment for rape.

    • Thanks: Kent Nationalist
  64. Imagine what Serbia could accomplish in a 100 years, if it had the same TFR as Niger.

    Would it then be bigger than Russia?

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • LOL: Gorgeous George
  65. @Anatoly Karlin
    One additional point is that while Serbian demographics are nothing to write home about, it's relative strength that matters, and they're doing better than most of their relevant neighbors.

    * Croatia is in freefall due to emigration, has more people leaving for the EU despite a population base that's almost twice smaller.
    * Albanian TFR is finally crashing, and has ejected all of the gains from it and then some into the EU.
    * Similar picture in Bosnia.
    * Kosovo has almost 2M on paper, but perhaps <1M in reality. I realize it's something Serb nationalists go on about, but looking at Albania, that might not be entirely cope. (There is no good demographics info from Kosovo that I'm aware of).

    The US obviously remains the biggest problem. But if it's attention comes to be entirely occupied with other pressing matters (e.g. China), interesting things could still happen in the Balkans.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Dmitry, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    * Croatia is in freefall due to emigration, has more people leaving for the EU despite a population base that’s almost twice smaller.

    This is a popular wisdom that is- wrong. From the date of entrance in the EU, ca. 280,000 Croatian citizens have left (for various reasons, but mostly in “search of a dream”). Counting past 6 months, ca. 30-40% have returned (personally, I know 6 such families). Various rootless cosmopolitans didn’t, but they have a different view on life.

    So- nothing of demographic disaster papers have been screaming about. In fact, last local elections in Bosnia & Herzegovina have shown that Croats have increased their presence due to heightened Muslim migration out of B & H (percentage wise, since elections in such circumstances are not more than national head-counting). Serbs have also been emigrating on a higher scale, but I cannot say how much, because I don’t care.

    Anyway, there are numerous reasons for emigration to wealthier EU countries, but analyzing it would take us too far.

  66. @RadicalCenter
    @Dmitry

    Appreciate your points, Dmitry, but when did Serbia move into western Europe? ;)

    In any event, Serbia and Armenia will ultimately be destroyed if they don’t manage to get a formal military alliance with the Russian Federation. That might go together with Armenia and Serbia joining a thorough customs/currency/travel union with Russia (adopting the Ruble as their currency).

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Armenia is a founding member of the Eurasian Economic Union, and it is also in the most close formal military alliance to Russia (“ODKB”). In addition, Armenia’s Southern borders are patrolled everyday by Russian soldiers (which is a kind of subsidy from Russia to Armenia, as Armenia partly doesn’t have to pay for defense of its Southern border).

    When we look at what is probably the main cause of the failure of Armenia’s national power – it is likely to be its labour market supply Russia. Eurasian Economic Union removed the final bureaucratic barrier for Armenians to work in Russia (need to apply for work permit), and now they can freely go work in Russia, with the rights as local Russian workers, without any paperwork obstacles.

    In this context, Armenia has very high levels of emigration to the Russian Federation, when we consider these numbers relative to its population of only 3 million.


    I don’t know anything about Armenia first hand, but from what I have read, that in the capital city of Armenia (Erevan), the demographic situation seems completely normal. However, in other cities of Armenia, there is a strong depopulation evident.

    In the individual perspective, depopulation can be very pleasant, as it contributes to less competition for job, less traffic and congestion, more school places, calmer atmosphere, less pollution, and better ecology and natural beauty. But of course, if we were concerned about the topic of national power projection – then depopulation is a disaster.

    This is why the more nationalist leadership of Uzbekistan had been refusing still to join Eurasian Economic Union, despite annual Russian invitation. Like Armenia, Uzbekistan is losing much of its young labour force to Russia, although the bureaucratic barrier gives at least more a temporary nature to Uzbek labour in Russia. Uzbeks have to renew their work permits, and the open borders with Russia is at informal level, rather than the formal open borders with Armenia. Although now Uzbekistan (despite more nationalist leadership post-Karimov) is saying they will also join.

    they have tiny populations (2.9 million in Armenia and 3.2 million in Serbia) and fertility

    Armenians are still flooding in Russia and it created usual problems (of open borders immigration) in the areas they settle massively. Although of course, the potential impact is limited by the small population. (Just Salvadoran immigrants cannot create the same impact in USA, as Mexican immigrants, due to the tiny population of El Salvador relative to Mexico.)

    Objectively, the most notable problem Armenian emigration is the reduction of Armenia’s national power. Now they have a lack of balance of power with Azerbaijan, as Azerbaijan is losing its labour to Russia at less than three times smaller rates relative to its population than Armenia is.

    • Thanks: RadicalCenter
  67. @Epigon
    @Agathoklis

    It is only well that Anglos and your servitude to them left you with such a nice 20th century.

    Enjoy your CIA Orthodoxy, Ecumenism and dysfunctional state.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

    Typically reflexive pro-Russian view. Neither Russia or the United States are great allies for Serbia and Greece.

  68. @Anatoly Karlin
    One additional point is that while Serbian demographics are nothing to write home about, it's relative strength that matters, and they're doing better than most of their relevant neighbors.

    * Croatia is in freefall due to emigration, has more people leaving for the EU despite a population base that's almost twice smaller.
    * Albanian TFR is finally crashing, and has ejected all of the gains from it and then some into the EU.
    * Similar picture in Bosnia.
    * Kosovo has almost 2M on paper, but perhaps <1M in reality. I realize it's something Serb nationalists go on about, but looking at Albania, that might not be entirely cope. (There is no good demographics info from Kosovo that I'm aware of).

    The US obviously remains the biggest problem. But if it's attention comes to be entirely occupied with other pressing matters (e.g. China), interesting things could still happen in the Balkans.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Dmitry, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    has more people leaving for the EU despite a population base that’s almost twice smaller.

    But Croatia is an EU member, while Serbia is not. So there cannot be comparison in this measure, as they have a different immigration regime relative to the EU. Croatia has open borders with the EU, while Serbia has somewhat still closed borders regime (Serbians have to attain some kind of working visas to live in the EU).

    If Serbia joined the EU, then open borders would follow within a few years, and we would expect a great increase in emigration. And that potential for loss of the young labour force via emigration to the EU, would be the main argument (from a Serbian national power perspective) against Serbia joining the EU.

    Serbia would have to look at the situation in Bulgaria and Croatia, and balance the economic benefits of EU membership, against the problem of losing national power by increasing emigration.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Dmitry

    Close, but things are more complex. Many Serbians (Serbs from Serbia) would very dearly emigrate to various EU countries (especially Germany, Austria,..) & there was a German-concocted plan to let them in, as skilled work force, with a piece of EU legislature that would let them in. That goes for other non-EU countries in SE Europe. People were jubilant.

    But then- Covid-19 intervened .....

    Karlin & others are mostly wrong. What they write about are 3rd-4th rate issues. The majority of real problems cannot be eradicated overnight (Balkan fake macho mentality, laziness, nepotism, corruption, ...). But Serbians are still afraid, or, they're disorganized, to move against brown trash Vučić & his cronies have been letting in. They're probably corrupt, because even clumsy Serbian police could deal with that scum. But no. This is a problem that will escalate due to incredible ineptitude of Serbian policy. Even Muslims in Western Bosnia are fed up with brown coreligionists & can't stand them (pro-Turkish idiots in Sarajevo, which has become an oriental kasba shithole, are another matter).

    Here, that filth force a Serbian woman to kiss their fucking prayer rug she'd stepped on.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSHe3bMocNo

    Replies: @Dmitry, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Dmitry


    If Serbia joined the EU, then open borders would follow within a few years, and we would expect a great increase in emigration.
     
    Although true, Serbia will never join the EU.

    There will be no EU membership for Serbia regardless of what Serbia actually does. Even ignoring all the specific issues Serbia has (e.g. Serbia’s EU membership is conditioned on recognition of Kosovo, among other things), it’s the fact that most of the EU doesn’t actually want to accept Serbia at all and to a degree isn’t really genuinely capable of it due to its own serious internal problems anyway. France and Netherlands have openly vetoed to block literally any new EU membership (something only Ukrops like AP and Mr Hack don’t seem to understand). The only countries that actually seem to genuinely want Serbia to join the EU are Czech Republic/Czechia and Hungary. Andrey Babis openly expressed such a sentiment, while Orban went so far as to openly state that the EU should just drop its condition of Serbia recognizing Kosovo to join the EU. After all, if Cyprus could join the EU despite it’s issue with “North Cyprus”, why shouldn’t Serbia be able to join when it has a somewhat similar situation with Kosovo?

    Still, looking at everything that’s going on with the EU, all the shit Serbs have copped/still must endure from the EU, and the infinitely long list of reasons why it would be bad for Serbia to join the EU, this is all actually a good thing (provided the EU doesn’t end up imposing economic sanctions on Serbia for whatever reason it fancies).

    Replies: @Dmitry

  69. @Commentator Mike
    @Jimmy1969

    They started one world war, or at least are blamed for it. And they got the blame for almost a decade of wars in the 1990s. So that is "nothing"? They still have the potential to start something big that could draw in all the major players. After the Middle East the Balkans are probably the biggest flashpoint in the world, even more so than the Caucasus, and the Serbs always play a big role in setting off that tinderbox.

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

    Yep, and perhaps mountains contested by China and India are an even more meaningful and dangerous flashpoint.

  70. I get the impression that Serbs hate Croats much more intensely than Albanians. They hate Albanians too, but it’s more of a one issue thing over Kosovo, but they see their struggle against Croatia as a far more existential struggle. Serbs generally believe that the Croats tried to genocide them.

    • Replies: @SveVid
    @Europe Europa


    Serbs generally believe that the Croats tried to genocide them
     
    .

    They believe?...it's a historical fact
    , @Korenchkin
    @Europe Europa


    I get the impression that Serbs hate Croats much more intensely than Albanians
     
    It's untrue, hating on Albanians is much more accepted due them much more different then us

    Serbs generally believe that the Croats tried to genocide them.
     
    >tried
    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Europe Europa

    1. As far as WW II is considered, official censuses from 1931. (the last census in Royalist Yugoslavia) and from 1948. (the first in Communist Yugoslavia) show that there are c. 700,000 more Serbs in all of Yugoslavia- and 3,500-14,000 less Croats, despite annexation of Croatian areas formerly held by Fascist Italy (Istria, Rijeka, 5 islands with exclusively Croatian population).

    So, Serbs who are supposedly the greatest victims in ex-Yugoslavia WW II show a growth in absolute numbers by 700,000 & Croats who are supposedly perpetrators, or lesser victims- are diminished in absolute numbers by 14,000 (despite adding a significant Croatian-only territory)?

    In 1931 census people were counted by religion & language. The South Slavic “language” was a bizarre official combination of the Slovene, Croat & Serbian (no one then, except Croatian linguist Stjepan Ivšić, had recognized Macedonian language). Other languages like Hungarian, German, Italian, Slovak, Czech, Albanian… were clearly the languages of those peoples. So, one could clearly distinguish between Croats, Serbs, Bosnian Muslims .. by simply looking at their religion & mother tongue (in that case, weird “Sloveno-Croato-Serbian”).

    During the Communist census in 1948, people just said what they were, nationally. Catholics- if not Slovene speaking- were Croats; Orthodox were either Serbs, Montenegrins or Macedonians (there were preserved censuses from 1931, so one could monitor county fluctuations of population); BH Muslims were mostly “Yugoslavs undetermined” (some of them said they were either Croats or Serbs, due to political pressures, but in next 2-3 decades were simply written out of this census).

    Also, there were tiny minorities of Catholic Serbs (ca. 8,800) and Orthodox Croats (9,300)- but they don’t mean anything, in comparison with these millions.

    So much about muh genocide

    2. these "most hated" figures seem to have diminished. For instance (Google translate), in 2019: https://www.hkv.hr/hrvatski-tjednik/31492-m-curac-srbija-sve-vise-postaje-drzava-mrznje-srbi-najvise-mrze-hrvate.html

    According to a public opinion poll by the Faktor Plus agency published by Serbia's Blic in early March, Serbs convincingly hate Croats the most - 45 percent of respondents, followed by Albanians with 33 percent. In contrast, the citizens of Serbia prefer the Greeks - 43 percent, followed by Montenegrins and Hungarians in much smaller percentages.

    https://www.b92.net/putovanja/zanimljivosti.php?yyyy=2020&mm=11&dd=20&nav_id=1767508

    Gustav Roster is a YouTuber from Denmark and publishes videos from the countries he travels to on his channel, and he conducted a small survey in Zagreb.

    He stopped people on the street and asked them which country they hated the most, and the Croats showed themselves in the best light and the majority answered that they did not hate any of them.

    Even those who would single out a country that is not particularly dear to them emphasized that it was their personal taste because, for example, they did not like the language or they met some unkind members of a certain nation.

    When he asked what they thought about Serbia, there were some who said that they did not like Serbia, but more people said that they had nothing against Serbia either.

    "I don't like their government, but the people are ok," said one man.

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Europe Europa


    I get the impression that Serbs hate Croats much more intensely than Albanians.

     

    Even if we put the past and history aside, Croats behave like Jews towards Serbs in many ways. In fact, the worst Croats are actually Croatian leftists, liberals, “anti-nationalists”, etc. because they hold exactly the same attitudes, opinions and positions toward Serbs as Croat nationalists but are deceptive, perfidious and purely evil. Croatian nationalists actually aren’t that bad, or at least are less bad, because they are honest in their pathological Serb hatred, and in some cases, this is actually a good thing because they’re a healthy reminder of what Croats are truly like (as Bardon Kaldian has excellently demonstrated in this thread already).

    Croat Jew-like behavior towards Serbs includes an ethnic Croat, Zdravko Ponos, being the General and Defence Minister of the Serbian Army from 2000-2012 where hundreds of tanks of high quality were literally publicly melted in the Smederevo steel mill, and the total army size reduced to numbers less than that of Weimar Germany (Weimar Germany is in fact a somewhat decent comparison of Serbia from 2000-2012). US ambassador to Serbia at the time, Dale Montgomery, even publicly presided over the destruction of the Serbian Army’s military equipment and proclaimed it a “triumph of democracy”/whatever.

    There are also Serbs that are SINO’s (Serbs In Name Only) who are usually and most appropriately categorized as Political Croats because their political behavior is literally identical to that of ethnic Croats (where they deliberately sabotage, destroy, annihilate, pollute and etc everything genuinely Serb), even if they are nominally Serbs (there are also other categories like "Montenegrins", Vojvodinian autonomists, even just "citizens of Serbia" and etc.). In fact, referring to people as political Croats is an excellent litmus test of Serb nationalism. The term Political Croat also comes from the 19th century, at earliest, where the phenomenon of people who were ethnically Serb practically behaving like Croats in harming and sabotaging Serb interests was well noticed, among others by Jasa Tomic (also based on the Jewish issue).

    In Serbia and the sabotage of its domestic policy, Jews are mostly unnecessary because ethnic Croats, political Croats and crypto-Croats play the role just as well, if not even better. Serbia's public library in Belgrade was literally closed down for years and all the precious library books, materials, etc. stolen/sold away because an ethnic Croat bitch called Branka Prpa ran the library. School textbooks in Serbia where literally written by ethnic Croat and HDZ party affiliates for years where they brainwashed Serb children about the wonderful nature of being taken into Janissaries, how Croatia supposedly owned Bosnia in the 9th century (to retroactively justify NDH/ISC borders) and other monstrosities. When Croats slaughtered entire Serb villages in Macva, the southeast near Kosovo and elsewhere in WW1, ethnic Croat governor of occupied Belgrade Stjepan Sarkotic openly terrorized Serbs in WW1, everything in WW2, all the Croat crimes against Serbs in the 1990's, it's no surprise that Croats will behave in this way when they get the chance to hijack positions of power in Serbia (which they did especially well during Comunist Tito Yugoslavia from 1945-1980) ...

    There’s also the fact that the situation of the Serb minority in “Croatia” (the word is literally too cancerous for me to even want to say it) is in many ways arguably even worse than that of Serbs in Kosovo. Their birth rates are lower than Kosovo Serbs, it's much easier for Serbs there to be assimilated into Croats than Serbs on Kosovo into Albanians, Croats also form gangs to beat and attack ethnic Serbs (most infamously so in Vukovar a few months ago) so at least a few times a year there's news that they beat the shit out of some Serbs be they locals or scum that go to Croatia for tourism (the latter group actually sort of deserve it). Ethnic Serbs in "Croatia" also have electricity and water supply in many cases deliberately denied to them in the countryside because they are, well, Serbs. Meanwhile in cuck Serbia, a monument to Josip Jelacic is built in Vojvodina and the crypto-Croat presence is still allowed to fester unpunished. Of course, the fact that Vojvodina even has any autonomy is yet another Croat trick and form of sabotage from 1945 (Also the shit situation of Kosovo is also partly thanks to the Croat Tito).

    I could go on even more but this is literally all I just managed to think off from the top of my head ...

    They hate Albanians too, but it’s more of a one issue thing over Kosovo,
     
    Albanians are just mostly low IQ, tribal-confederated, semi-Islamic primitives in comparison. So literally no one is surprised when they hear that Albanians harvested organs from Serbs, or set fire to Serb churches on Kosovo, or are trying to claim Serb heritage as "ancient Illyria-Dardania-Pelasgia autochtonos!!!"/whatever or retardedly screech on the internet about "Vuciq Miloseviqqq genocid regime!!!", etc ...

    Kosovo is Serbia is much more of a normie position by now (which is obviously a good thing) but a better litmus test of Serb nationalism is understanding all the things Croats have done to Serbs and more simply, opinions on Republika Srpska are the best litmus test of Serb nationalism in my opinion. North Albania is also ancient Serb land as well btw.

    Replies: @Vlada, @Yevardian

  71. @Dmitry
    @Anatoly Karlin


    has more people leaving for the EU despite a population base that’s almost twice smaller.
     
    But Croatia is an EU member, while Serbia is not. So there cannot be comparison in this measure, as they have a different immigration regime relative to the EU. Croatia has open borders with the EU, while Serbia has somewhat still closed borders regime (Serbians have to attain some kind of working visas to live in the EU).

    If Serbia joined the EU, then open borders would follow within a few years, and we would expect a great increase in emigration. And that potential for loss of the young labour force via emigration to the EU, would be the main argument (from a Serbian national power perspective) against Serbia joining the EU.

    Serbia would have to look at the situation in Bulgaria and Croatia, and balance the economic benefits of EU membership, against the problem of losing national power by increasing emigration.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Close, but things are more complex. Many Serbians (Serbs from Serbia) would very dearly emigrate to various EU countries (especially Germany, Austria,..) & there was a German-concocted plan to let them in, as skilled work force, with a piece of EU legislature that would let them in. That goes for other non-EU countries in SE Europe. People were jubilant.

    But then- Covid-19 intervened …..

    Karlin & others are mostly wrong. What they write about are 3rd-4th rate issues. The majority of real problems cannot be eradicated overnight (Balkan fake macho mentality, laziness, nepotism, corruption, …). But Serbians are still afraid, or, they’re disorganized, to move against brown trash Vučić & his cronies have been letting in. They’re probably corrupt, because even clumsy Serbian police could deal with that scum. But no. This is a problem that will escalate due to incredible ineptitude of Serbian policy. Even Muslims in Western Bosnia are fed up with brown coreligionists & can’t stand them (pro-Turkish idiots in Sarajevo, which has become an oriental kasba shithole, are another matter).

    Here, that filth force a Serbian woman to kiss their fucking prayer rug she’d stepped on.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Bardon you often write your posts in a sophisticated way, even illustrating covers of books you read. As a result, I remember that I had imagined that you must be from a country like Germany or England, and I picture you looking down on us from a booked filled room in Heidelberg or Oxford.

    Lol I have to confess I was a little shocked, when you said you are from the Balkans.

    Do you know why there are so many Balkans people here? There's almost none of the great nationalities like Germans, Italians, French, etc; but around a quarter of forum userships seems to be from Yugoslavia. I'm guessing there must be because some counter-intuitive profusion of the South Slavic netizens have developed unusually high English language proficiency in last decades?

    Replies: @AP, @Yevardian, @Bardon Kaldian, @Korenchkin

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Bardon Kaldian


    But Serbians are still afraid, or, they’re disorganized, to move against brown trash Vučić & his cronies have been letting in. They’re probably corrupt, because even clumsy Serbian police could deal with that scum. But no. This is a problem that will escalate due to incredible ineptitude of Serbian policy. Even Muslims in Western Bosnia are fed up with brown coreligionists & can’t stand them (pro-Turkish idiots in Sarajevo, which has become an oriental kasba shithole, are another matter).

     

    The whole Muslim migrants thing in Serbia is somewhat exaggerated (although yes, it is a real issue of course). It’s something that random and “obscure” internet outlets paranoically rant about because there is a significant 5th column in Serbia dedicated to trying to color-revolution/regime-change Vucic out of power which they've been trying to do non-stop since like 2014 (they've clearly lost steam with Vucic's victory in 2020 elections this year). The genuine concern and worry over Muslim migrants is clearly something they’ve managed to latch onto currently as yet another "Vucic is a traitor narrative". The previous ones where "Vucic is trying to sell out Kosovo and recognize it", "Vucic is a corrupt thug", "Vucic is brainwashing Serbs with his SNS sandwich-eater cult", "Vucic authoritarianism" and so on. The claims that Vucic is trying to sell out Kosovo still unironically exists for several years by now and it clearly hasn't happened (nor will it). Even though nearly all these accusations are completely baseless, the Vucic derangement syndrome among some elements in Serbia makes Trump derangement syndrome look small in comparison. It's also in a way had a sort of good effect by shifting the "Overton window" of discourse into serious nationalism with Kosovo is Serbia becoming an openly acceptable normie attitude.

    I personally can't really judge the extent to which the migrant problem in Serbia is bad (Croatia/Hungary deliberately refuse to let migrants pass using Serbia as a dumping ground/buffer zone, like I personally understand Hungary's fence but they just want to keep all the migrants they should've let to pass to Germany/West Europe in Serbia), but the real migrant problem is in Bosnia. The Islamic SDA party deliberately floods in Muslim migrants and Jihadists with SDA minister Selmo Cekotic even bizarrely saying "we need more sexy migrants" (does he want them to breed with the "White Aryan" Bosnian Muslim women?). The problem is that the SDA has already used migrants to flood and drive Serbs out of the few villages where they still exist in the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Clearly no one is happy with Islamic-Arab, Pakistani, etc. migrants (seemingly not even the majority of non-SDA Bosniaks themselves) but this is deliberately allowed and encouraged as part of the agenda of making Islam artificially triumph in the Balkans ...

  72. @Not Only Wrathful
    Hating the US has been a favourite lie for Europeans throughout my lifetime

    Yet our individual and national actions always belie our words. US cultural products could not be more popular. Our dislike is totally fake and a risible cope for our enthrallment

    Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident, @Europe Europa, @Joe Paluka, @Kent Nationalist, @Korenchkin, @Bill, @Showmethereal, @Eugene Norman

    Western Europe is different than Central and Eastern Europe. Europe has never thought in one accord. As a European you should know that. And do you count Russia as a European nation..? Btw – i love association football (soccer to Americans) and am somewhat fond of cricket. I even like a few British comedies… But that doesnt mean i like British foreign policy nor its history.

    So I dont see what the problem would be for Serbians to have similar thoughts toward the US.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
    @Showmethereal

    I'm English. Europe is the land past the Channel. The further East it goes, the less familiar I am with it. France, Spain, Italy and Germany are the main bits, for me.

  73. @Scotist
    @Denis: A better explanation is that Serbs consider Kosovo as part of Serbia proper while Bosnia was never part of any historical Serb polity.

    As for Montenegro, they have generally had good relations, so there is no good reason to go to war.

    Replies: @Denis

    Regarding Bosnia, that is certainly a possibility.

    For Montenegro, I am not so sure. Serbs would probably be reluctant to fight a war against Montenegro, given that most Serbs view Montenegrins and Serbs as being one, and indeed, relations between them on a personal level are good, since so many family ties cross national borders. However, that does not mean the government of Montenegro is seen with the same friendliness. The Montenegrin government is widely, and accurately, seen as an anti-Serb state that is engaged in a campaign of cultural vandalism against the people. Time will tell if this changes with the long-awaited removal of Djukanovic.

  74. The Vucic government is the first truly Serbian government since the time of the Kingdom of Serbia and is generally speaking, balancing quite well under the current constellation of forces. It’s the only country in the region (and wider) with at least a degree of independence & sovereignty.

    All the neighbouring countries (with the exception of Hungary) are full blown protectorates.

    As for it’s relations with Russia, they would be even closer if Russia actually paid a bit more attention to Serbia. Up to now, it’s been a pretty low priority for Russia. I think their only priority has been making sure Serbia stays out of Nato, which is why they’ve been working on establishing military to military ties.

    The Serbian economy is growing significantly in the past few years, yet Russian investment has been limited and is far behind the EU and the Chinese.

    They’re are some promising signs in the last year, with significant Russian investment in the chemical industry. A facilty in Panchevo that was bombed during 1999, has been rebuilt by Russia and a nuclear research facilty is to be established in the near future.

  75. @Europe Europa
    I get the impression that Serbs hate Croats much more intensely than Albanians. They hate Albanians too, but it's more of a one issue thing over Kosovo, but they see their struggle against Croatia as a far more existential struggle. Serbs generally believe that the Croats tried to genocide them.

    Replies: @SveVid, @Korenchkin, @Bardon Kaldian, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Serbs generally believe that the Croats tried to genocide them

    .

    They believe?…it’s a historical fact

  76. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Cyrano


    I think that they are the original back-stabbers. In fact, I think that if you look in the dictionary under “backstabber” – chances are, you might see a picture of a Serb. I mean how could you choose Greece over Bulgaria in the 2nd Balkan War? What is wrong with those people?

    The Greeks haven’t done anything useful historically, for almost 2 millennia, and it doesn’t look like they ever will again. And yet, the Serbs choose the Greeks and back-stabbed the Bulgarians. It’s the ultimate betrayal.

    And I think it has haunted the Serbs to this day, because nothing has ever gone right for them historically after that colossal betrayal of their fellow Slavs – the Bulgarians – to make benefit the glorious nation of Greece.

     

    Let's clear the historical record here once and for all.

    Bulgaria dishonored its treaty obligations towards Serbia in the 1st Balkan War and after it ended.


    - Bulgaria refused to send a single soldier to help Serbs fight against Ottomans in Vardar Macedonia (understandable, but still a breach of pre-war treaty obligations)
    - MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY, Bulgaria refused to honor its treaty obligation with Serbia to defend it against any attack by any foreign powers, be it Ottoman Empire or Austria-Hungary.
    - This is why Albania even exists as a country because Bulgaria refused to go to war to defend Serbia from an ultimatum by all the combined West European great powers to Serbia ordering it to retreat from Albania, that it had to submit to in 1913. In fact, Bulgaria bears a large amount of fault for the fact that Albania even exists as a country at all ...
    - It was Bulgaria that attacked Serbia and began the 2nd Balkan War. Bulgaria attacked Serbia because it thought it could get and even deserves "ancient Bulgarian Macedonia" by attacking its Serb allies army encampment in Bregalnica in the middle of the night hoping to slaughter it's allies while they're all asleep. This failed and Serbs managed to successfully fight back, together with Greece. Bulgarian Tsar Ferdinand I (his Germanic heritage clearly has a lot to do with why Bulgaria allowed Albania's creation) is also on the record as stating something along the lines of "Serbs don't deserve to exist" ...
    - For these reasons Serbs refused to cede Vardar Macedonia that was hard won in many battles against the Ottoman Empire in the 1st Balkan War. True, a breach of treaty obligations by Serbia, although completely understandable given Bulgarian behavior.

    Imprint the above firmly into your head. They are objective truths and facts that Bulgarians are clearly oblivious about.

    Otherwise yes, you are correct about other things. Serbs and Bulgarians shouldn't fight each other, especially when they have so many other much more important problems than each other right now..

    Replies: @Yevardian

    In fact, Bulgaria bears a large amount of fault for the fact that Albania even exists as a country at all …

    Why would you want to rule over so many Albanians in the first place? Let them have it, I don’t understand your logic at all.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Yevardian

    Likely they plan on doing to them what the Armenians did to 800 000 Azeris in the 1990s
    And what the Azeris are going to do to the Armenians in their zone of N-K

    Replies: @Humbert Humbert

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Yevardian


    Why would you want to rule over so many Albanians in the first place? Let them have it, I don’t understand your logic at all.

     

    North-Central Albania is in fact ancient Serb land. Skadar (so-called “Shkodra”) is in fact an ancient Serb city. It is the site of many Serb capital feudal lands and it is the site of the famous tale of “Building the Skadar on the Bojana [river]”. The factual proof that this land is in fact rightfully Serb is very strong.

    Albanians are literally a fake nation. In fact calling them a nation is charitable. They’re more like a tribal confederation composed of at least two different distinctly separate tribes (with even sub-tribe categories), Ghegs and Tosks (they literally speak 2 different languages). The Tosk tribe seems to be less bad than the Gheg tribe, and apparently the Ghegs are infamous for their primitivism and savagery (Ghegs are the ones Serbs mostly have to confront, while the Greeks mostly get the Tosks). Albanians also have sub-tribal blood feuds with unironic Besa oaths of murder/torture/terror and revenge for generations on end not just against non-Albanians (Serbs, Greeks but also against Slavs in Macedonia) but also commonly between each other (apparently at least a few thousand Albanians die every year from blood feuds between each other). Only literal Serb tribes of Montenegro have something remotely similar, although tribalism among Serbs in Montenegro is unique, with only say Krajina and Kosovo Serbs also having a sort of specific regional clan to support each other in positions of power, but nothing of the Albanian tribe sort. Albanian tribalism was most infamously tasted by Kosovo Serbs.

    I sort of can’t be bothered doing the whole factual and even “mathematical” proof that Albanians are a fake nation, but I’ll just generally explain it. Albania is an artificially engineered nation by Austria-Hungary to deny Serbs access to the ancient south Serb lands. This was literally factually proven by the Bulgarian historian Theodora Toleva which is also why she suffered a mysterious death ...

    https://adarapress.com/2019/12/20/albania-a-creation-of-the-austro-hungarian-empire-according-records-discovered-in-the-vienna-royal-archives-by-bulgarian-historian-teodora-toleva-1968-2011/

    This is also a part of why Serbs have good reason to hate Albanians:

    https://adarapress.com/2019/12/24/what-they-dont-want-you-to-know-about-the-nato-eu-us-backed-albanian-leaders-of-kosovo-and-their-links-to-al-qaeda-and-heroin-trafficking/

    The name “Albania” was nothing more than an obscure term till the late-19th century. Modern Albanians were known by many different names including Arnauts, Avranites, Shiptars, Shqiptars, and so on meaning that their current name is actually a plagiarism of the name of the ancient Serb land called Albania. Albanians literally had like 1-2% literacy at the start of the 20th century and their language and national identity was invented by Hungarian count Gyula-Andrassy (also someone who worked on engineering "Bosnian nationhood") among others.

    Enver Hodxha deliberately adopted a policy of de-Serbing the Serb population of Albania by forcibly assimilating them into Albanians, this was especially infamously so for the Serbs of Skadar among whom there are some to this day conscious of their Serb ancestry but have to hide this fact (there is a certain percentage of Albanians that are just assimilated Serbs). Hodxha also deliberately destroyed all the Serb heritage of Albania including the demolition of all the Serb Orthodox Churches in Albania that were clear proof of the ancient Serb heritage there.

    There’s also coastline access across “Albania” as well you know. The Drac (“Durres”/whatever) coastline is especially nice and pleasant because it’s a flat one compared to say, Montenegro’s coastline. Literally though, much of modern day Albania was in fact ruled by Serb nobles in the medieval ages and even Skanderbeg the famed "Albanian" national hero, was actually a Serb (so it's somewhat nice of Albanians to honor Serb heritage by making so many statues of Skanderbeg).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwVRTgtsvIE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8FlfyleeQM

    Genuine peaceful co-existence and integration with some Albanian tribes is possible in my opinion (some Shiptars were reliable subjects of medieval Serb kingdoms and lords, while from the 15th century some Albanians have served as loyal guards of Serb churches on Kosovo from other Albanians and Turko-Muslims), of course the return to the Serb nation of a certain percentage of Albanians, but the rest will simply need to go and return to Thrace in modern day Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey. Inland Thrace is the real original homeland of the Albanians (they might even be some sort of "Bessoi" tribe from modern day Bulgaria) which explains why there is no native word in the Albanian language for naval terms like fish, ships, anything to do with water and so on.

    I hope this makes sense to you and you won't repeat stupidities about things like "Kosovo belongs to the Albanians" and "Albanians are a real and ancient nation" anymore.

  77. Politics is boring.

    Now, this is more interesting: Covid-19 stats. Serbia’s figures are puzzling, to say the least. If you check total Covid-19 cases, then those recovered and still active cases, you will get that ca. 80% had recovered & ~ 10-20% are still active cases. This is the same all over the world (UK, Russia, Switzerland, Czechia,..).

    Only in Serbia, placed at 37, ~ 10-20% are recovered & ~ 80% are still active.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    This is impossible. Technically not manageable.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I have a big Corona post coming up.

    Re-Serbia - has had a very sharp second wave + drastic undercounting of Corona mortality (factor of 5 or more).

    There's a chance the country with the worst Corona mortality will end up being one of the Balkan ones.

    https://twitter.com/volvoks99/status/1337199468190576641

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  78. @Commentator Mike
    @Cyrano

    Talking about friends and Bulgarians, the funny thing is that Russians have been the best friends of Bulgarians in recent history yet the converse cannot be said to be true. Consider that modern Bulgaria owes its very existence to Russians, having resulted from the 1877 war against the Ottomans, and yet in two world wars Bulgaria sided with Germany, Russia's arch-enemy. In fact the Russians were such good friends of the Bulgarians, who did very little to free themselves from the Ottomans, that they intended to give a huge chunk of the Balkans to Bulgaria, including parts liberated from the Ottomans by the Serbian army.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Bulgaria-SanStefano_-%281878%29-byTodorBozhinov.png

    It was only because of the opposition of other European powers that Bulgaria was cut down to size. If anyone should be a Russophile it should be the Bulgarians but these backstabbers and traitors have always turned against their greatest benefactor. And I suppose they are now in NATO poised to fight on the side of Russia's enemies yet again.

    But other than that I agree that Bulgarians are quite close to Serbs in many respects: culture, religion, language, mentality.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Cyrano, @Humbert Humbert

    You got it all wrong chap. It was the arrogance of the Russians that soured the relationships between Bulgaria and the Russian empire. Firstly, the will of the newly liberated Bulgarians was to have a republican constitution. Russia (and Germany) rammed a constitutional monarchy instead and we got our first prince/king Alexander Batenberg, a nice Danish guy. Alas, once he tried to lead an independent politics from Russia, the Russian representative started a chain of intrigue that ended deposing Batenberg sending him into exile.

    This was the first big event that showed that the Russian empire was not trying to treat us as independent nation. Later event was the opposition against the unification of the two (out of three) main Bulgarian territories – Thracia and Moesia which further soured the gratefulness towards the Russian army and the assassinated emperor Alexander II (Alexander Nevsky cathedral is the biggest orthodox cathedral in Bulgaria and is built to honour his name).

    The third event was when the Russian army tried to attack us during WW1 even though we refused to participate in the war against them on the Eastern front and fought them at our borders and won.

    We, ordinary Bulgarians are fully aware what Russia has done for us, in fact, we are the only! country in Europe to refuse fighting against Russia(USSR) during both WW1 and WW2 on the grounds that they are our “brothers”.

    Now, in regards to the shithead serbians, it was in our first decade of existence as newly independent nation when they tried to expand territorially at our expense and attacked us in something like 2 to 1 advantage, but got their asses kicked back. They are truly the loathsome turds of the Balkan peninsula.

    • LOL: Korenchkin
  79. @Yevardian
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    In fact, Bulgaria bears a large amount of fault for the fact that Albania even exists as a country at all …
     
    Why would you want to rule over so many Albanians in the first place? Let them have it, I don't understand your logic at all.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Likely they plan on doing to them what the Armenians did to 800 000 Azeris in the 1990s
    And what the Azeris are going to do to the Armenians in their zone of N-K

    • Replies: @Humbert Humbert
    @Korenchkin

    Loling like an idiot? or do you have anything to say to what I wrote?

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  80. @Bardon Kaldian
    Politics is boring.

    Now, this is more interesting: Covid-19 stats. Serbia's figures are puzzling, to say the least. If you check total Covid-19 cases, then those recovered and still active cases, you will get that ca. 80% had recovered & ~ 10-20% are still active cases. This is the same all over the world (UK, Russia, Switzerland, Czechia,..).

    Only in Serbia, placed at 37, ~ 10-20% are recovered & ~ 80% are still active.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    This is impossible. Technically not manageable.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    I have a big Corona post coming up.

    Re-Serbia – has had a very sharp second wave + drastic undercounting of Corona mortality (factor of 5 or more).

    There’s a chance the country with the worst Corona mortality will end up being one of the Balkan ones.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Agreed about mortality- and Greece, placed at 62, is in the similar position- but I can't understand how these countries can manage Covid-19 crisis.

    Re Covid, all talk is about the number of all cases, new cases - and deaths. I remember when some 6-7 months ago we had a rather strong lockdown & relatively empty hospitals. There was something hysterical about it, but measures were relatively mild. At the same time, Serbia was at the brink of the collapse (number of cases, deaths, full hospitals, ..) - or was it simply an illusion? Was it all an over-reaction?

    I am not a "Covid denier" (nor a believer in some global conspiracy). We can see that world governments are puzzled, frantic, not coordinated, confused, ... But:

    1. all mass testings have shown (Stockholm, Slovakia,..) ca. 1-2% rate of infection.

    2. except in extremely atypical cases - hospitals, treatment, doctors involved, ... were good enough in numbers & services they had to offer. No people dying in the streets; no mass funerals; no skyrocketing death rate; no collapse of health system anywhere.

    Not denying seriousness of the pandemic, aren't most measures just a waste of time? And if Greece & Serbia now, as I write, have such a big number of active cases- how can they handle them?

    Replies: @Dmitry

  81. @Korenchkin
    @Yevardian

    Likely they plan on doing to them what the Armenians did to 800 000 Azeris in the 1990s
    And what the Azeris are going to do to the Armenians in their zone of N-K

    Replies: @Humbert Humbert

    Loling like an idiot? or do you have anything to say to what I wrote?

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Humbert Humbert

    Yes, I want to apologize to Russia for our ancestors convincing them that there was anything worthwhile to be found in liberating Balkanoid swine from the Turks

  82. @Europe Europa
    I get the impression that Serbs hate Croats much more intensely than Albanians. They hate Albanians too, but it's more of a one issue thing over Kosovo, but they see their struggle against Croatia as a far more existential struggle. Serbs generally believe that the Croats tried to genocide them.

    Replies: @SveVid, @Korenchkin, @Bardon Kaldian, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I get the impression that Serbs hate Croats much more intensely than Albanians

    It’s untrue, hating on Albanians is much more accepted due them much more different then us

    Serbs generally believe that the Croats tried to genocide them.

    >tried

  83. @Humbert Humbert
    @Korenchkin

    Loling like an idiot? or do you have anything to say to what I wrote?

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    Yes, I want to apologize to Russia for our ancestors convincing them that there was anything worthwhile to be found in liberating Balkanoid swine from the Turks

  84. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Bardon Kaldian

    I have a big Corona post coming up.

    Re-Serbia - has had a very sharp second wave + drastic undercounting of Corona mortality (factor of 5 or more).

    There's a chance the country with the worst Corona mortality will end up being one of the Balkan ones.

    https://twitter.com/volvoks99/status/1337199468190576641

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Agreed about mortality- and Greece, placed at 62, is in the similar position- but I can’t understand how these countries can manage Covid-19 crisis.

    Re Covid, all talk is about the number of all cases, new cases – and deaths. I remember when some 6-7 months ago we had a rather strong lockdown & relatively empty hospitals. There was something hysterical about it, but measures were relatively mild. At the same time, Serbia was at the brink of the collapse (number of cases, deaths, full hospitals, ..) – or was it simply an illusion? Was it all an over-reaction?

    I am not a “Covid denier” (nor a believer in some global conspiracy). We can see that world governments are puzzled, frantic, not coordinated, confused, … But:

    1. all mass testings have shown (Stockholm, Slovakia,..) ca. 1-2% rate of infection.

    2. except in extremely atypical cases – hospitals, treatment, doctors involved, … were good enough in numbers & services they had to offer. No people dying in the streets; no mass funerals; no skyrocketing death rate; no collapse of health system anywhere.

    Not denying seriousness of the pandemic, aren’t most measures just a waste of time? And if Greece & Serbia now, as I write, have such a big number of active cases- how can they handle them?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian

    People and governments (which are also just people) were just slow to understand basic points about the pandemic. It was like watching a slow version of "deer in highlights". There a lot of confusion and misinformation, and I guess too many people (including many politicians) were not able to filter the noise from it.

    I remember even on this forum, that I (I am not a expert or genius) was posting that the pandemic would be determined by climate, and yet nobody seemed interested. Of course, predictably the waves of the epidemic does follow the weather, and yet half of Europe was recently acting surprised that the second wave arrived even worse than before with the cold weather, and that it is going to be as long as the cold seasons.

    Similarly with all the discussion about masks, and discussion about need for people to secure FFP2, to buy HEPA filters for the office, etc. Where I worked, most people was obsessed about ineffectively cleaning surfaces and washing hands, and nobody knew that we should get air purifiers with HEPA filters.

    On the other hand, there are things we learned only as the year progresses. For example, the relative lack of outdoor transmission, and the importance of climate being mediated by changes in behaviour (for example, U-shaped relationship of transmission rates and UV index - too much sun also causes people crowd inside buildings).


    -
    Still I think that people should wear masks outside, as it likely increases probability they will wear mask inside. Just look at countries like Japan or Singapore - everyone wears mask outside. When the population is just told "Wear a mask!" and therefore wears masks outside, people will clearly be more habituated to wear masks inside as well.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PeHnWIJLNI

    Replies: @joniel

  85. @Europe Europa
    I get the impression that Serbs hate Croats much more intensely than Albanians. They hate Albanians too, but it's more of a one issue thing over Kosovo, but they see their struggle against Croatia as a far more existential struggle. Serbs generally believe that the Croats tried to genocide them.

    Replies: @SveVid, @Korenchkin, @Bardon Kaldian, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    1. As far as WW II is considered, official censuses from 1931. (the last census in Royalist Yugoslavia) and from 1948. (the first in Communist Yugoslavia) show that there are c. 700,000 more Serbs in all of Yugoslavia- and 3,500-14,000 less Croats, despite annexation of Croatian areas formerly held by Fascist Italy (Istria, Rijeka, 5 islands with exclusively Croatian population).

    So, Serbs who are supposedly the greatest victims in ex-Yugoslavia WW II show a growth in absolute numbers by 700,000 & Croats who are supposedly perpetrators, or lesser victims- are diminished in absolute numbers by 14,000 (despite adding a significant Croatian-only territory)?

    In 1931 census people were counted by religion & language. The South Slavic “language” was a bizarre official combination of the Slovene, Croat & Serbian (no one then, except Croatian linguist Stjepan Ivšić, had recognized Macedonian language). Other languages like Hungarian, German, Italian, Slovak, Czech, Albanian… were clearly the languages of those peoples. So, one could clearly distinguish between Croats, Serbs, Bosnian Muslims .. by simply looking at their religion & mother tongue (in that case, weird “Sloveno-Croato-Serbian”).

    During the Communist census in 1948, people just said what they were, nationally. Catholics- if not Slovene speaking- were Croats; Orthodox were either Serbs, Montenegrins or Macedonians (there were preserved censuses from 1931, so one could monitor county fluctuations of population); BH Muslims were mostly “Yugoslavs undetermined” (some of them said they were either Croats or Serbs, due to political pressures, but in next 2-3 decades were simply written out of this census).

    Also, there were tiny minorities of Catholic Serbs (ca. 8,800) and Orthodox Croats (9,300)- but they don’t mean anything, in comparison with these millions.

    So much about muh genocide

    2. these “most hated” figures seem to have diminished. For instance (Google translate), in 2019: https://www.hkv.hr/hrvatski-tjednik/31492-m-curac-srbija-sve-vise-postaje-drzava-mrznje-srbi-najvise-mrze-hrvate.html

    According to a public opinion poll by the Faktor Plus agency published by Serbia’s Blic in early March, Serbs convincingly hate Croats the most – 45 percent of respondents, followed by Albanians with 33 percent. In contrast, the citizens of Serbia prefer the Greeks – 43 percent, followed by Montenegrins and Hungarians in much smaller percentages.

    https://www.b92.net/putovanja/zanimljivosti.php?yyyy=2020&mm=11&dd=20&nav_id=1767508

    Gustav Roster is a YouTuber from Denmark and publishes videos from the countries he travels to on his channel, and he conducted a small survey in Zagreb.

    He stopped people on the street and asked them which country they hated the most, and the Croats showed themselves in the best light and the majority answered that they did not hate any of them.

    Even those who would single out a country that is not particularly dear to them emphasized that it was their personal taste because, for example, they did not like the language or they met some unkind members of a certain nation.

    When he asked what they thought about Serbia, there were some who said that they did not like Serbia, but more people said that they had nothing against Serbia either.

    “I don’t like their government, but the people are ok,” said one man.

  86. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Dmitry

    Close, but things are more complex. Many Serbians (Serbs from Serbia) would very dearly emigrate to various EU countries (especially Germany, Austria,..) & there was a German-concocted plan to let them in, as skilled work force, with a piece of EU legislature that would let them in. That goes for other non-EU countries in SE Europe. People were jubilant.

    But then- Covid-19 intervened .....

    Karlin & others are mostly wrong. What they write about are 3rd-4th rate issues. The majority of real problems cannot be eradicated overnight (Balkan fake macho mentality, laziness, nepotism, corruption, ...). But Serbians are still afraid, or, they're disorganized, to move against brown trash Vučić & his cronies have been letting in. They're probably corrupt, because even clumsy Serbian police could deal with that scum. But no. This is a problem that will escalate due to incredible ineptitude of Serbian policy. Even Muslims in Western Bosnia are fed up with brown coreligionists & can't stand them (pro-Turkish idiots in Sarajevo, which has become an oriental kasba shithole, are another matter).

    Here, that filth force a Serbian woman to kiss their fucking prayer rug she'd stepped on.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSHe3bMocNo

    Replies: @Dmitry, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Bardon you often write your posts in a sophisticated way, even illustrating covers of books you read. As a result, I remember that I had imagined that you must be from a country like Germany or England, and I picture you looking down on us from a booked filled room in Heidelberg or Oxford.

    Lol I have to confess I was a little shocked, when you said you are from the Balkans.

    Do you know why there are so many Balkans people here? There’s almost none of the great nationalities like Germans, Italians, French, etc; but around a quarter of forum userships seems to be from Yugoslavia. I’m guessing there must be because some counter-intuitive profusion of the South Slavic netizens have developed unusually high English language proficiency in last decades?

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry

    He's a Croat. Croatia is Balkan but wasn't ruled by Turks for as long as were the other Balkan countries, and unlike the rest of Balkans it is Catholic. It probably doesn't feel particularly Balkan. Croats (and even more so Slovenes) are probably more like Czechs than like Bulgarians.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    Lol I have to confess I was a little shocked, when you said you are from the Balkans.
     
    Wait, what? I thought he was an Armenian in the US, formerly from the USSR. I only recall because of some post of his Ron Unz referred to regarding Stalin's plans for a post-WW2 invasion of Turkey.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Dmitry, @Blinky Bill

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Dmitry

    Eh...my country is only partially in the Balkans region. Also, you must not forget one thing- people here tend to have not too demanding jobs (some of them), so they have more time to waste. It doesn't apply, of course, to what I call "real work": nurses, a part of scientists (just a part), most MDs, .....

    I am not talking about this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB_d8CmIDq0

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Korenchkin
    @Dmitry

    Balkan states have active territorial disputes and popular irredentist desires, and yes populations with (relatively) high English proficiency
    Changes here depend on the whims of great powers (US, EU, Russia, China) so people here have an interest in keeping up to date, so here we are

    Sadly the comments are of much lower quality then what this blog had years ago

  87. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Agreed about mortality- and Greece, placed at 62, is in the similar position- but I can't understand how these countries can manage Covid-19 crisis.

    Re Covid, all talk is about the number of all cases, new cases - and deaths. I remember when some 6-7 months ago we had a rather strong lockdown & relatively empty hospitals. There was something hysterical about it, but measures were relatively mild. At the same time, Serbia was at the brink of the collapse (number of cases, deaths, full hospitals, ..) - or was it simply an illusion? Was it all an over-reaction?

    I am not a "Covid denier" (nor a believer in some global conspiracy). We can see that world governments are puzzled, frantic, not coordinated, confused, ... But:

    1. all mass testings have shown (Stockholm, Slovakia,..) ca. 1-2% rate of infection.

    2. except in extremely atypical cases - hospitals, treatment, doctors involved, ... were good enough in numbers & services they had to offer. No people dying in the streets; no mass funerals; no skyrocketing death rate; no collapse of health system anywhere.

    Not denying seriousness of the pandemic, aren't most measures just a waste of time? And if Greece & Serbia now, as I write, have such a big number of active cases- how can they handle them?

    Replies: @Dmitry

    People and governments (which are also just people) were just slow to understand basic points about the pandemic. It was like watching a slow version of “deer in highlights”. There a lot of confusion and misinformation, and I guess too many people (including many politicians) were not able to filter the noise from it.

    I remember even on this forum, that I (I am not a expert or genius) was posting that the pandemic would be determined by climate, and yet nobody seemed interested. Of course, predictably the waves of the epidemic does follow the weather, and yet half of Europe was recently acting surprised that the second wave arrived even worse than before with the cold weather, and that it is going to be as long as the cold seasons.

    Similarly with all the discussion about masks, and discussion about need for people to secure FFP2, to buy HEPA filters for the office, etc. Where I worked, most people was obsessed about ineffectively cleaning surfaces and washing hands, and nobody knew that we should get air purifiers with HEPA filters.

    On the other hand, there are things we learned only as the year progresses. For example, the relative lack of outdoor transmission, and the importance of climate being mediated by changes in behaviour (for example, U-shaped relationship of transmission rates and UV index – too much sun also causes people crowd inside buildings).


    Still I think that people should wear masks outside, as it likely increases probability they will wear mask inside. Just look at countries like Japan or Singapore – everyone wears mask outside. When the population is just told “Wear a mask!” and therefore wears masks outside, people will clearly be more habituated to wear masks inside as well.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @joniel
    @Dmitry

    There are still many things we were wrong about re: masks, climate, etc. If the virus's spread is muted except in cold climates, then why is Los Angeles with its perfect weather all year the world's hotspot?

    Masks help, but then the UK mutant strain is a perfect example of the virus's natural ability to evolve when we try to put up barriers.

  88. @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Bardon you often write your posts in a sophisticated way, even illustrating covers of books you read. As a result, I remember that I had imagined that you must be from a country like Germany or England, and I picture you looking down on us from a booked filled room in Heidelberg or Oxford.

    Lol I have to confess I was a little shocked, when you said you are from the Balkans.

    Do you know why there are so many Balkans people here? There's almost none of the great nationalities like Germans, Italians, French, etc; but around a quarter of forum userships seems to be from Yugoslavia. I'm guessing there must be because some counter-intuitive profusion of the South Slavic netizens have developed unusually high English language proficiency in last decades?

    Replies: @AP, @Yevardian, @Bardon Kaldian, @Korenchkin

    He’s a Croat. Croatia is Balkan but wasn’t ruled by Turks for as long as were the other Balkan countries, and unlike the rest of Balkans it is Catholic. It probably doesn’t feel particularly Balkan. Croats (and even more so Slovenes) are probably more like Czechs than like Bulgarians.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP

    Perhaps another difference is that the coastal parts of Croatia and Slovenia was ruled for 400 years by their neighbours Venice, so - maybe coastal parts of those countries still today might bear the imprint of a stronger Italian influence compared to Serbia, which was never part of Venice's territories?

    At various times, Venice had Corfu, Crete, Rhodes and Cyprus as well (a lot of the best real estate of the Mediterranean).
    https://i.imgur.com/3WNQfoC.png

  89. @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Bardon you often write your posts in a sophisticated way, even illustrating covers of books you read. As a result, I remember that I had imagined that you must be from a country like Germany or England, and I picture you looking down on us from a booked filled room in Heidelberg or Oxford.

    Lol I have to confess I was a little shocked, when you said you are from the Balkans.

    Do you know why there are so many Balkans people here? There's almost none of the great nationalities like Germans, Italians, French, etc; but around a quarter of forum userships seems to be from Yugoslavia. I'm guessing there must be because some counter-intuitive profusion of the South Slavic netizens have developed unusually high English language proficiency in last decades?

    Replies: @AP, @Yevardian, @Bardon Kaldian, @Korenchkin

    Lol I have to confess I was a little shocked, when you said you are from the Balkans.

    Wait, what? I thought he was an Armenian in the US, formerly from the USSR. I only recall because of some post of his Ron Unz referred to regarding Stalin’s plans for a post-WW2 invasion of Turkey.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Yevardian

    iirc that was commenter "Avery" you're thinking of.

    @Dmitry


    Do you know why there are so many Balkans people here?
     
    It's mostly Serbs, and a few Bulgarians, from Orthodox nations which have been traditionally pro-Russian. They probably feel ideological kinship with a Russian nationalist like AK. Shared hostility to NATO (understandable in the case of Serbs) is another factor.
    No great mystery here.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    , @Dmitry
    @Yevardian

    Lol Bardon is a representative of the Croatian nationalists, if I remember what he told me.

    , @Blinky Bill
    @Yevardian

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/the-assassination-of-mohsen-fakhrizadeh/#comment-4331784

  90. German_reader says:
    @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    Lol I have to confess I was a little shocked, when you said you are from the Balkans.
     
    Wait, what? I thought he was an Armenian in the US, formerly from the USSR. I only recall because of some post of his Ron Unz referred to regarding Stalin's plans for a post-WW2 invasion of Turkey.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Dmitry, @Blinky Bill

    iirc that was commenter “Avery” you’re thinking of.

    Do you know why there are so many Balkans people here?

    It’s mostly Serbs, and a few Bulgarians, from Orthodox nations which have been traditionally pro-Russian. They probably feel ideological kinship with a Russian nationalist like AK. Shared hostility to NATO (understandable in the case of Serbs) is another factor.
    No great mystery here.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @German_reader

    Oh you're right, somehow that mix-up got stuck in my head. For the better, I felt a tinge of race-shame because he makes so many extremely blockheaded comments, making a ton of cuckservative talking-points in particular.
    Yes, Croatia, the 'country' of stolen-identity that's behavior even made the SS blush, I think I even prefer Albanians, at least they're a real and ancient nation.

    Replies: @German_reader

  91. @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian

    People and governments (which are also just people) were just slow to understand basic points about the pandemic. It was like watching a slow version of "deer in highlights". There a lot of confusion and misinformation, and I guess too many people (including many politicians) were not able to filter the noise from it.

    I remember even on this forum, that I (I am not a expert or genius) was posting that the pandemic would be determined by climate, and yet nobody seemed interested. Of course, predictably the waves of the epidemic does follow the weather, and yet half of Europe was recently acting surprised that the second wave arrived even worse than before with the cold weather, and that it is going to be as long as the cold seasons.

    Similarly with all the discussion about masks, and discussion about need for people to secure FFP2, to buy HEPA filters for the office, etc. Where I worked, most people was obsessed about ineffectively cleaning surfaces and washing hands, and nobody knew that we should get air purifiers with HEPA filters.

    On the other hand, there are things we learned only as the year progresses. For example, the relative lack of outdoor transmission, and the importance of climate being mediated by changes in behaviour (for example, U-shaped relationship of transmission rates and UV index - too much sun also causes people crowd inside buildings).


    -
    Still I think that people should wear masks outside, as it likely increases probability they will wear mask inside. Just look at countries like Japan or Singapore - everyone wears mask outside. When the population is just told "Wear a mask!" and therefore wears masks outside, people will clearly be more habituated to wear masks inside as well.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PeHnWIJLNI

    Replies: @joniel

    There are still many things we were wrong about re: masks, climate, etc. If the virus’s spread is muted except in cold climates, then why is Los Angeles with its perfect weather all year the world’s hotspot?

    Masks help, but then the UK mutant strain is a perfect example of the virus’s natural ability to evolve when we try to put up barriers.

  92. @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    Lol I have to confess I was a little shocked, when you said you are from the Balkans.
     
    Wait, what? I thought he was an Armenian in the US, formerly from the USSR. I only recall because of some post of his Ron Unz referred to regarding Stalin's plans for a post-WW2 invasion of Turkey.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Dmitry, @Blinky Bill

    Lol Bardon is a representative of the Croatian nationalists, if I remember what he told me.

  93. @AP
    @Dmitry

    He's a Croat. Croatia is Balkan but wasn't ruled by Turks for as long as were the other Balkan countries, and unlike the rest of Balkans it is Catholic. It probably doesn't feel particularly Balkan. Croats (and even more so Slovenes) are probably more like Czechs than like Bulgarians.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Perhaps another difference is that the coastal parts of Croatia and Slovenia was ruled for 400 years by their neighbours Venice, so – maybe coastal parts of those countries still today might bear the imprint of a stronger Italian influence compared to Serbia, which was never part of Venice’s territories?

    At various times, Venice had Corfu, Crete, Rhodes and Cyprus as well (a lot of the best real estate of the Mediterranean).

  94. @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    Lol I have to confess I was a little shocked, when you said you are from the Balkans.
     
    Wait, what? I thought he was an Armenian in the US, formerly from the USSR. I only recall because of some post of his Ron Unz referred to regarding Stalin's plans for a post-WW2 invasion of Turkey.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Dmitry, @Blinky Bill

  95. @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Bardon you often write your posts in a sophisticated way, even illustrating covers of books you read. As a result, I remember that I had imagined that you must be from a country like Germany or England, and I picture you looking down on us from a booked filled room in Heidelberg or Oxford.

    Lol I have to confess I was a little shocked, when you said you are from the Balkans.

    Do you know why there are so many Balkans people here? There's almost none of the great nationalities like Germans, Italians, French, etc; but around a quarter of forum userships seems to be from Yugoslavia. I'm guessing there must be because some counter-intuitive profusion of the South Slavic netizens have developed unusually high English language proficiency in last decades?

    Replies: @AP, @Yevardian, @Bardon Kaldian, @Korenchkin

    Eh…my country is only partially in the Balkans region. Also, you must not forget one thing- people here tend to have not too demanding jobs (some of them), so they have more time to waste. It doesn’t apply, of course, to what I call “real work”: nurses, a part of scientists (just a part), most MDs, …..

    I am not talking about this:

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian


    country is only partially in the Balkans region
     
    Lol is this normal for the Croatian nationalists? "My country is only partially in the Balkans". The consider yourselves like a civilized white European people, with only one foot "partially" stepped in the mud of the Balkans - the bottom of the feet blackened like pied-noirs?

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

  96. @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Bardon you often write your posts in a sophisticated way, even illustrating covers of books you read. As a result, I remember that I had imagined that you must be from a country like Germany or England, and I picture you looking down on us from a booked filled room in Heidelberg or Oxford.

    Lol I have to confess I was a little shocked, when you said you are from the Balkans.

    Do you know why there are so many Balkans people here? There's almost none of the great nationalities like Germans, Italians, French, etc; but around a quarter of forum userships seems to be from Yugoslavia. I'm guessing there must be because some counter-intuitive profusion of the South Slavic netizens have developed unusually high English language proficiency in last decades?

    Replies: @AP, @Yevardian, @Bardon Kaldian, @Korenchkin

    Balkan states have active territorial disputes and popular irredentist desires, and yes populations with (relatively) high English proficiency
    Changes here depend on the whims of great powers (US, EU, Russia, China) so people here have an interest in keeping up to date, so here we are

    Sadly the comments are of much lower quality then what this blog had years ago

  97. @German_reader
    @Yevardian

    iirc that was commenter "Avery" you're thinking of.

    @Dmitry


    Do you know why there are so many Balkans people here?
     
    It's mostly Serbs, and a few Bulgarians, from Orthodox nations which have been traditionally pro-Russian. They probably feel ideological kinship with a Russian nationalist like AK. Shared hostility to NATO (understandable in the case of Serbs) is another factor.
    No great mystery here.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    Oh you’re right, somehow that mix-up got stuck in my head. For the better, I felt a tinge of race-shame because he makes so many extremely blockheaded comments, making a ton of cuckservative talking-points in particular.
    Yes, Croatia, the ‘country’ of stolen-identity that’s behavior even made the SS blush, I think I even prefer Albanians, at least they’re a real and ancient nation.

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Yevardian


    Yes, Croatia, the ‘country’ of stolen-identity that’s behavior even made the SS blush, I think I even prefer Albanians, at least they’re a real and ancient nation.
     
    I don't see why you would call Croatia a "country of stolen identity" (unless that's a reference to the weird Ustaša claim that Croats aren't Slavs), as a discernible unit (first as independent kingdom, later as separate part in a personal union with Hungary) it dates back to the 10th/11th centuries after all. This Balkans habit of arguing "Your nation is fake and invented, unlike mine" is really unappealing.
    I agree that Albanian commenters would be a good thing for UR, they could take the entertaining Balkan feuds in the comments sections to the next level. Maybe Ron Unz can run a eulogy of Waffen-SS division Skanderbeg as part of his WW2 revisionism series, to attract Albanian readers.

    Replies: @SveVid

  98. @Bill
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Right. You can't both hate your dealer and be addicted to crack. Because logic.

    Replies: @Showmethereal

    But indeed – many hate their dealers. Many hate that they want to get high. Thats what being an addict is.

  99. @Tony
    87% think chinese influence is positive? WTF. These Serbs need to get their minds right.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Showmethereal, @Gorgeous George

    China was helping them with intelligence gathering when NATO attacked them. They seem to know better than you. In fact part of the reason the US probably still has it in for them was because US intelligence believes that as a reward for helping the Serbs with SIGnals INTelligence they gave China a piece of the stealth plane they took down. That is most likely the reason the CIA bombed the Chinese Embassy in Serbia.
    Friends are not friends in talk – but in deed.

  100. @Not Only Wrathful
    Hating the US has been a favourite lie for Europeans throughout my lifetime

    Yet our individual and national actions always belie our words. US cultural products could not be more popular. Our dislike is totally fake and a risible cope for our enthrallment

    Replies: @Magic Dirt Resident, @Europe Europa, @Joe Paluka, @Kent Nationalist, @Korenchkin, @Bill, @Showmethereal, @Eugene Norman

    Anti Europeanism is more common on the American right and left. The former are just openly anti European, the latter hide it behind anti Eurocentric ideologies. I couldn’t name an anti American politician though. In fact Europe is dominated by American ideologies, increasingly of the left. The AngloSphere being the worst.

    I assume Serbia became pro Chinese during the NATO war against them when China gave aid to Serbia and NATO bombed the Chinese embassy.

    The rest of nationalist Europe should take note.

  101. @Korenchkin
    @Art Deco

    Not going to happen, and for that matter Russians shouldn't forget about Ukraine either

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Why shouldn’t the Russian’s forget about the Ukraine? The constituency for annexation by Russia in the Ukraine amounts to 4% of the population, give or take. What’s in it for Russia to put such expense into stomping on Ukrainians?

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Art Deco

    Because giving up on Ukraine means it has become a dead and stagnant nation destined to enter the dustbin of history like Western Europe currently is
    Ukraine presents their great challenge of the modern time, a smaller then the one they faced when they were just a Grand Dutchy surrounded by enemies or when they had to prepare for a showdown with a Superpower moments after they had finished getting mauled like no other nation in history during WW2
    If there is no way then a way must be found, what is the point of calling Kiev the mother of Russian cities if you just give up on that claim like it means nothing to you

    You've only lost something once you give up on it

    Replies: @AP

  102. @Cyrano
    @Art Deco

    This is what I would say to that: The Ottoman empire lasted 500 years. Second longest lasting empire in history – after the Roman empire - which stands at 1000 years. I am not sure about Egypt, but I don’t think it was competitive with the above 2.

    Anyway, the point is, Serbia outlasted the Ottoman empire, eventually gained freedom - with Kosovo being part of it. I am willing to bet that Serbia will outlast the current “Ottomans”, the ones across the ocean. I don’t see them lasting 500 years, let alone a 1000. I would be surprised if they outlast even Biden.

    The point is, Serbs are patient people, they waited for the Turks to get out of the Balkans – with a little bit of Russian help, and enjoyed some breathing space for a while. The times are calling for patience again, and in a short period of time, things will probably rearrange themselves in the Balkans, maybe even favoring the Serbs a little bit. They deserve a break.

    Replies: @128, @Art Deco

    Your point is what?

    • Replies: @Cyrano
    @Art Deco

    Nothing lasts forever. Even the so called “empires”. There is some empir(e)ical evidence of that.

  103. @Showmethereal
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Western Europe is different than Central and Eastern Europe. Europe has never thought in one accord. As a European you should know that. And do you count Russia as a European nation..? Btw - i love association football (soccer to Americans) and am somewhat fond of cricket. I even like a few British comedies... But that doesnt mean i like British foreign policy nor its history.

    So I dont see what the problem would be for Serbians to have similar thoughts toward the US.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful

    I’m English. Europe is the land past the Channel. The further East it goes, the less familiar I am with it. France, Spain, Italy and Germany are the main bits, for me.

  104. German_reader says:
    @Yevardian
    @German_reader

    Oh you're right, somehow that mix-up got stuck in my head. For the better, I felt a tinge of race-shame because he makes so many extremely blockheaded comments, making a ton of cuckservative talking-points in particular.
    Yes, Croatia, the 'country' of stolen-identity that's behavior even made the SS blush, I think I even prefer Albanians, at least they're a real and ancient nation.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Yes, Croatia, the ‘country’ of stolen-identity that’s behavior even made the SS blush, I think I even prefer Albanians, at least they’re a real and ancient nation.

    I don’t see why you would call Croatia a “country of stolen identity” (unless that’s a reference to the weird Ustaša claim that Croats aren’t Slavs), as a discernible unit (first as independent kingdom, later as separate part in a personal union with Hungary) it dates back to the 10th/11th centuries after all. This Balkans habit of arguing “Your nation is fake and invented, unlike mine” is really unappealing.
    I agree that Albanian commenters would be a good thing for UR, they could take the entertaining Balkan feuds in the comments sections to the next level. Maybe Ron Unz can run a eulogy of Waffen-SS division Skanderbeg as part of his WW2 revisionism series, to attract Albanian readers.

    • Replies: @SveVid
    @German_reader


    I don’t see why you would call Croatia a “country of stolen identity” (unless that’s a reference to the weird Ustaša claim that Croats aren’t Slavs), as a discernible unit (first as independent kingdom, later as separate part in a personal union with Hungary) it dates back to the 10th/11th centuries after all
     
    Most of Dalmatia and Slavonia was added to Croatia relatively recently. They were separate provinces in the Austro-Hungarian empire. And there was precious little ethnic Croats living there. Serbs who were converted to Catholicism between 1400-1800 were declared Croats for geopolitical reasons You can check Austrian census of Dubrovnik for example

    Replies: @German_reader

  105. @Art Deco
    @Cyrano

    Your point is what?

    Replies: @Cyrano

    Nothing lasts forever. Even the so called “empires”. There is some empir(e)ical evidence of that.

  106. @Art Deco
    @Korenchkin

    Why shouldn't the Russian's forget about the Ukraine? The constituency for annexation by Russia in the Ukraine amounts to 4% of the population, give or take. What's in it for Russia to put such expense into stomping on Ukrainians?

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    Because giving up on Ukraine means it has become a dead and stagnant nation destined to enter the dustbin of history like Western Europe currently is
    Ukraine presents their great challenge of the modern time, a smaller then the one they faced when they were just a Grand Dutchy surrounded by enemies or when they had to prepare for a showdown with a Superpower moments after they had finished getting mauled like no other nation in history during WW2
    If there is no way then a way must be found, what is the point of calling Kiev the mother of Russian cities if you just give up on that claim like it means nothing to you

    You’ve only lost something once you give up on it

    • Replies: @AP
    @Korenchkin

    Lol, a Serb commenter wants the East Slavs to kill each other like Balkanoids do.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  107. @Korenchkin
    @Art Deco

    Because giving up on Ukraine means it has become a dead and stagnant nation destined to enter the dustbin of history like Western Europe currently is
    Ukraine presents their great challenge of the modern time, a smaller then the one they faced when they were just a Grand Dutchy surrounded by enemies or when they had to prepare for a showdown with a Superpower moments after they had finished getting mauled like no other nation in history during WW2
    If there is no way then a way must be found, what is the point of calling Kiev the mother of Russian cities if you just give up on that claim like it means nothing to you

    You've only lost something once you give up on it

    Replies: @AP

    Lol, a Serb commenter wants the East Slavs to kill each other like Balkanoids do.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @AP

    They won't have to, if Ukrainians wake up from their delusion
    This goes for overly Ukrainophobic Russians too

    They need to see it as a battle both for hearts and minds and for ports and airfields

  108. @Cyrano
    It’s good that the Serbs are pro-Russian. But historically their biggest mistake has been that they were (and still are) anti-Bulgarian.

    Instead they chose an alliance with the Croats because they speak the same language. Croats speak the same tongue – but theirs is forked – like the one in a snake. The Serbs could have hardly chosen a worse “ally” then their “brothers” – the Croats.

    It’s never too late to mend historical mistakes. Serbs should make every effort (because it’s up to them) to fix their relationship with the Bulgarians.

    Just to illustrate the nature of attitudes between Serbs and Bulgarians – this is from personal experience. If 9 Bulgarians are in a company of 1 Serb – for a grand total of 10, the 9 Bulgarians will try to speak Serbian – to show how friendly they are to the Serbs, and how appreciative of their culture.

    Serbs are funny people, they have one famous national saying: “Speak Serbian so the whole world will understand you”. I know it sounds funny, but they really meant it – when that saying was created – probably about a century ago. It's OK to think highly of yourselves, as long as you don't look down on your fellow Slavs - the wrong ones.

    Replies: @Commentator Mike, @Gorgeous George

    Well I agree that Croats were terrible choice of company for the Serbs but what has been done is done, now the best thing to do is not to repeat similar mistakes. All future relations should be on bilateral basis rather than alliances since those tend to shift rapidly in the Balkans.

    The History is much more complex than the Bulgars or Serbs bad, or even Croats. All people of Balkans should just keep away from empty platitudes and fake well wishes and exclamations of brotherhood. Yes, Serbia and Bulgaria should act more in sync moving forward, but no need for any official alliance, people will tear it to shreds on both sides at first chance. It will be on glass legs. Bulgaria has a huge advantage over Serbia because it’s not landlocked and can trade with the world, so in that sense Serbia needs Bulgaria more than the other way around.

    But first and foremost Bulgaria needs to un-recognize Kosovo as a separate state. Call it a show of good will, I know it will be greatly appreciated in Serbia. Also the Bulgarian friends that I have understood Serbian, like they can make it out much better than the other way around. I think that that might be since Serbian is a further evolved language, it had more overhauls and it differs greatly to what it used to be some 200 years ago when it doubtlessly had many more similarities with Bulgarian. So in that sense I think that speakers of an older language can understand the younger one, but the understanding doesn’t go in reverse. Also on the language topic there was the cultural influence of Yugoslavia and Serbia in Bulgaria (call it soft power) but not really the other way around.

    Some things that should be common to both countries is the threat of the globohomo movement, the sort of related demographic catastrophe and economic under-development.

    Also both countries owe their very existence to Russia.

    Bulgaria though went full Euro (path to globohomo) and gave up it’s sovereignty with EU and Nato membership. This is a huge turn off. So there is really no talk of alliances but there should be real reproach starting with Bulgaria’s un-recognizing of Kosovo. After that more can be done with energy, common stance in support of sovereign nations globally, support for each others sovereignty, cultural exchanges in university levels and so forth. Small steps that are basically supporting each owns rights to existence.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Gorgeous George


    d. I think that that might be since Serbian is a further evolved language, it had more overhauls and it differs greatly to what it used to be some 200 years ago when it doubtlessly had many more similarities with Bulgarian.
     
    Well, of course it depends on how you measure 'evolution', in probably the most important sense, Bulgarian is the most innovative of all Slavic languages as its the only that has dropped grammatical case entirely, replacing them all with prepositions, making it far easier to learn for foreigners.

    In general Bulgarians always struck out as the most civilised of the Balkan peoples (They were the only ones to work out a peaceful resolution with their Turkish/Muslim population; also in WW2 they refused to declare war on Russia, sheltered refugees, and just used the war settle old border disputes, to the great annoyance of Hitler.), if not for the fall of the monarchy and the massive assistance Greece received since it's inception, it would probably be the richest and most functional as well.

    Replies: @Cyrano

  109. @Cyrano
    @Commentator Mike

    I am typically pro-Serbian (actually I am generally, pro-Slav, unless we are talking about some real morons, which there are plenty among the Slavs), but in this case I am going to have to call it against the Serbs.

    I think that they are the original back-stabbers. In fact, I think that if you look in the dictionary under “backstabber” – chances are, you might see a picture of a Serb. I mean how could you choose Greece over Bulgaria in the 2nd Balkan War? What is wrong with those people?

    The Greeks haven’t done anything useful historically, for almost 2 millennia, and it doesn’t look like they ever will again. And yet, the Serbs choose the Greeks and back-stabbed the Bulgarians. It’s the ultimate betrayal.

    And I think it has haunted the Serbs to this day, because nothing has ever gone right for them historically after that colossal betrayal of their fellow Slavs – the Bulgarians - to make benefit the glorious nation of Greece.

    Bulgarians have one saying: Винаги с Германия, никога против Русия – which translates into: “Always with Germany, never against Russia”. And it’s the Serbs who pushed the Bulgarians into permanent alliance with the Germans, because the Germans were the only ones willing to offer Bulgaria what they wanted – the territories that they lost in the 2nd Balkan war thanks to the Serb’s betrayal.

    Despite their “alliance” with Germany, Bulgaria has hardly ever done anything useful for Germany at the expense of the Russians. There were no Bulgarian soldiers on the eastern front in WW2, Bulgarians fought the Russians in WW1, but not so much in the capacity of German allies, more in capacity of personal benefit.

    On the other hand, Russia has always been more pro-Serbian than pro-Bulgarian, I think the reason being is that the Serbs are more passionate Russian butt-kissers (not that there is anything wrong with it), then the Bulgarians. The Serbs just put so much emotion into it, that they are hard to resist.

    The only Russian (Soviet) leader who has ever made the right call in the Bulgarian-Serbian dispute, was actually Stalin. He said that the territories that Bulgaria lost thanks to the Serbian back-stabbing, logically belong to Bulgaria – but even he didn’t do anything to make that territorial redistribution happen in the Balkans, because he didn’t wanted to offend the Serbs. The bottom line is: The Serbs made a huge mistake in the 2nd Balkan war, and forever screwed up the Balkan dynamics – unfortunately not in their favor, probably not in anybody’s favor, as far as the Slavs are concerned.

    Replies: @Commentator Mike, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Gorgeous George

    You’re getting things wrong.

    I mean how could you choose Greece over Bulgaria in the 2nd Balkan War?

    The 2nd Balkan War wasn’t a war of choice for Serbia, Serbia was attacked by Bulgaria. Bulgaria confessed and ceded territory after loosing.

    Not to say that Bulgaria didn’t get fucked after the 1st Balkan war, when it was allied with Serbia. What none of the allied Balkan countries (Serbia, Montenegro, Greece and Bulgaria) knew on the eve of the war was that the combined west would insist on the creation of Albania. The pre-war deal was that what became Albania would be split with the north going to Serbia and Epir to Greece. What is today Northern Macedonia was to be split roughly east to Bulgaria and West to Serbia.

    Then the war Happens, Turkey is beat, Bulgaria gains access to Aegean and is right out of Constantinople.

    Then Serbia (and Greece) get screwed out of what became Albania by the combined West. Serbia (a bit butthurt and with claims of Bulgarians negating alliance obligations by not committing troops) then keeps it’s gains against the Turks in what is Northern Macedonia. Bulgaria is pissed.

    So Serbia got fucked by the west, fucks over Bulgaria for half of Macedonia.

    Bulgaria then attacks Serbia. Night raid, well documented. Bulgaria rolled that dice, foolishly. Then seeing that Bulgaria couldn’t defeat the Serbs and was stuck then it got attacked by Turkey and Greece and Romania. As a result Bulgaria got fucked royally, Turkey regained a foothold in Europe, Bulgaria lost all of it’s Aegean coast and it ceded territory to Serbia as compensation.

    Then comes WW1 and Bulgaria then actually backstabs Serbia and does fucked up things to the local population and then does the same thing again in WW2. Long story short Bulgaria attacked Serbia three times in three consecutive wars. Can’t really call that Serbian backstabbing. Serbia did fuck Bulgars (which was wrong, even if Serbia first did get fucked out of Adriatic coast by the West) over after 1st Balkan war but fucking over one side and attacking are different things.

    Russia has always been more pro-Serbian than pro-Bulgarian

    Not really, San Stefan peace accords are case in point, as well as what you said about Stalin.

    Serbs are more passionate Russian butt-kissers

    Being that there would be no Serbia to speak of if Russia doesn’t step in WW1 I call Serbian feelings toward Russia simple gratitude and is woefully underdone. Russia literally took a bullet for Serbia (the empire died) and Serbia lived on. Being that Serbia lost like a third of it’s population in a war it WON it’s safe to assume that there would be no Serbia or Serbs without the Russian intervention.

    Other than that I agree that Serbs and Bulgarians should let bygones be and focus on their respective sovereignty and demographic problems. It would also be nice if Orthodox Bulgaria would not backstab Serbia by recognizing Kosovo, so there’s the perfect 1st step on ending broken relations.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    @Gorgeous George

    I hope they can get along and cooperate with each other, for sure.

    But there will be no meaningful “Orthodoz Bulgaria” because there will soon be almost no orthdox Bulgarian people of childbearing age and younger in the country. Those who stay do not have children and they are simply going to vanish as a people. From a 1985 peak of 9 million, the population has dropped to 6.9 million and is declining by 50-60,000 people every year. This rate of decline will likely double, then triple, as old people die off and the number of (non-Muslim) women of childbearing age dwindles to almost nothing within one more generation.

    Meanwhile, the Muslims in Bulgaria continue to grow as a percentage of the declining and aging population, approaching 15% and likely to jump in the near future as many orthodox bulgarians die off in the next 20 years with few to no grandchildren left behind (especially actually living in Bulgaria).

    https://balkaninsight.com/2020/02/26/where-did-everyone-go-the-sad-slow-emptying-of-bulgarias-vidin/

    If the Russians don’t start having children themselves and taking control of rapidly depopulating nearby countries like Bulgaria, Ukraine, and Latvia, some other people will — perhaps the Turks or even the Chinese.

  110. @Europe Europa
    @128

    Black violence and dysfunction seems to be a specifically black problem rather than a general low IQ problem, low IQ is just one part of it. Also, black Americans seem to be significantly more violent and criminal than even many lower IQ blacks in various African countries.

    In general many lower IQ countries are not particularly violent, such as places like Morocco, Tunisia, India, Jordan, etc.

    Replies: @Ian Smith, @loren, @Mr. XYZ

    Black Americans seem to be significantly more violent and criminal than even many lower IQ blacks in various African countries.

    Rwanda, Darfur, Rhodesia, South Africa? huh.

  111. @Denis

    52% would support Serbian military intervention in Kosovo in the event of a conflict and 47% claim they would personally participate in it.
    However, 69% were against intervention in Montenegro and 58% in Bosnia & Herzegovina in an analogous scenario
     
    Serbian support for intervention in any of these scenarios likely varies quite a bit depending on how confident the people polled are of victory. The most common riposte I've observed to revanchist arguments among Serbs is that NATO enjoys overwhelming superiority in the region, and hence Serbia should not take any military action.

    I suspect that this is a primary reason for the regional variation; Montenegro, being a NATO member, may be seen as a tripwire that would invite massive NATO retaliation by the responders, and so they are more cautious there. Bosnia however is not a NATO member, and so they are more decisive in that case, and Kosovo is actually considered a part of Serbia by several NATO members, so they are even more confident in that case. In other words, the perceived likelihood of success probably plays a great role in the responses. (I make no argument as to whether or not this is a reasonable way of viewing things or whether or not the respondents perceive the likelihood of success accurately if my hypothesis is accurate)

    Replies: @Gorgeous George

    I’m one of the 52%

    The discrepancy in due to likelihood of shit happening and also having a clear “enemy” is also a helpful determinant.

    Allow me to explain. In Kosovo, likelihood of shit going down is low, but much higher then in these other places. Like there could easily be another pogrom like in 2004 and you pretty much know who would be the opposing side. Also last time war had a real outcome, Kosovo was ripped out of Serbia, so basically what’s good for them is good for me.

    In Montenegro it will not get any worse than just anti Serbian hysterics with an occasional beating, which is no cause for action. Even that likelihood plummeted with the latest election that the pro-Serbian coalition won.

    In Bosnia you have three entities, Muslims, Croats and Serbs. Likelihood of shit happenig is actually pretty low, it’s all down to grandstanding and political gestures that give diminishing returns each time they are played. Republika Srpska also has an army so it’s not like this unprotected entity, unlike Serbs in Kosovo. Also the last war there (a real war) really had little outcome. Bosnia is still partiotioned along ethnic lines, just a bit more than it was before. No one really won it all, Serbs have half and Cro-Muslims have half. A re-run might have the same result.

    This is how I see it from the inside.

  112. @Tony
    87% think chinese influence is positive? WTF. These Serbs need to get their minds right.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Showmethereal, @Gorgeous George

    Why not?

    The combined west bombed, sanctioned and ripped Serbia apart three times in the last century, while China held it’s back in the UN and helped massively at the onset of Covid.

    I don’t see your logic besides that you might hold a grudge with China for taking US jobs or something, why Serbia should care about any of that is besides me.

    • Replies: @Tony
    @Gorgeous George

    "while China held it’s back in the UN and helped massively at the onset of Covid."

    Yeah China helped out with Covid alright. You mean like someone beating the crap out of you and then calling an ambulance for you.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

  113. @Art Deco
    Serbia would be well advised to forget about Kosovo except for attempting to arrange for the transfer of some border municipalities and historic sites. When your core territories have a population of just north of 7 million, you don't benefit from having a glob of 1.8 million discontented Albanians appended to you. A more sensible goal would be incorporating the Republika Srpska into Serbia proper.

    Replies: @Cyrano, @Korenchkin, @Gorgeous George

    Nope, Serbia should never forget about Kosovo. Even if it’s 5 million Albanians there, you have to have your myth alive and if you give that up you give your soul up. Basically Serbia that surrenders Kosovo isn’t Serbia worth having anymore.

    To the demographic point it’s not 1.8 Million Albanians there anymore, it’s not 1991 anymore. They have stopped having 7 kids and are currently outbred by Kosovo Serbs. That’s not even the biggest thing, the have bled people to Europe in droves in the last 10 years. Once they saw that their Serb free land isn’t any paradise, it’s not even in the UN, it’s hopelessly corrupt, criminal, statelet with no real sovereignty people started to leave. By the hordes. Their true number is now 1.1 million at most and shedding fast.

    Still much more than the 0.2 million Serbs but far from 2 mil. These trends will continue. Serbia just must bide it’s time. Republika Srpska can also wait, it’s not going anywhere.

  114. @German_reader
    @Yevardian


    Yes, Croatia, the ‘country’ of stolen-identity that’s behavior even made the SS blush, I think I even prefer Albanians, at least they’re a real and ancient nation.
     
    I don't see why you would call Croatia a "country of stolen identity" (unless that's a reference to the weird Ustaša claim that Croats aren't Slavs), as a discernible unit (first as independent kingdom, later as separate part in a personal union with Hungary) it dates back to the 10th/11th centuries after all. This Balkans habit of arguing "Your nation is fake and invented, unlike mine" is really unappealing.
    I agree that Albanian commenters would be a good thing for UR, they could take the entertaining Balkan feuds in the comments sections to the next level. Maybe Ron Unz can run a eulogy of Waffen-SS division Skanderbeg as part of his WW2 revisionism series, to attract Albanian readers.

    Replies: @SveVid

    I don’t see why you would call Croatia a “country of stolen identity” (unless that’s a reference to the weird Ustaša claim that Croats aren’t Slavs), as a discernible unit (first as independent kingdom, later as separate part in a personal union with Hungary) it dates back to the 10th/11th centuries after all

    Most of Dalmatia and Slavonia was added to Croatia relatively recently. They were separate provinces in the Austro-Hungarian empire. And there was precious little ethnic Croats living there. Serbs who were converted to Catholicism between 1400-1800 were declared Croats for geopolitical reasons You can check Austrian census of Dubrovnik for example

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @SveVid


    Serbs who were converted to Catholicism between 1400-1800 were declared Croats
     
    Maybe a dumb question, but given the importance of confessional identities in the Balkans, did such people even identify as Serbs once they had converted to Catholicism? I've always assumed that Orthodoxy is a very important element of Serbian identity (a lot of Serbs seem to have highly negative views of the Catholic church after all).

    Replies: @SveVid, @TheTotallyAnonymous

  115. German_reader says:
    @SveVid
    @German_reader


    I don’t see why you would call Croatia a “country of stolen identity” (unless that’s a reference to the weird Ustaša claim that Croats aren’t Slavs), as a discernible unit (first as independent kingdom, later as separate part in a personal union with Hungary) it dates back to the 10th/11th centuries after all
     
    Most of Dalmatia and Slavonia was added to Croatia relatively recently. They were separate provinces in the Austro-Hungarian empire. And there was precious little ethnic Croats living there. Serbs who were converted to Catholicism between 1400-1800 were declared Croats for geopolitical reasons You can check Austrian census of Dubrovnik for example

    Replies: @German_reader

    Serbs who were converted to Catholicism between 1400-1800 were declared Croats

    Maybe a dumb question, but given the importance of confessional identities in the Balkans, did such people even identify as Serbs once they had converted to Catholicism? I’ve always assumed that Orthodoxy is a very important element of Serbian identity (a lot of Serbs seem to have highly negative views of the Catholic church after all).

    • Replies: @SveVid
    @German_reader


    Maybe a dumb question, but given the importance of confessional identities in the Balkans, did such people even identify as Serbs once they had converted to Catholicism?
     
    Some prominent members of their community declared themselves as Serbs as late as the end years of the 19th and early years of the 20th century and also, the Catholic Church and Austrian government did have to work for a long time to stamp out various customs and traditions
    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @German_reader


    did such people even identify as Serbs once they had converted to Catholicism?
     
    Yes. The phenomenon of Serbs of the Roman Catholic Faith is a real thing. Matija Ban is the best example of someone that was genuinely a Serb of the Roman Catholic Faith.

    Dubrovnik was literally majority Serb for centuries (with some Italians as well). There were many openly Serb societies in Dubrovnik and clearly distinct markers of Serb ethnic identity. Unfortunately Dubrovnik was lost and Croatized in 1939 when Prince Paul signed the Cvetkovic-Macek agreement and surrendered Dubrovnik to Croats.

    This phenomenon is much more common with Serbs of the Muslim Faith though.


    I’ve always assumed that Orthodoxy is a very important element of Serbian identity
     
    It definitely is (but there’s more to it than just that). However, Slavic paganism causes Serb Orthodoxy to have certain unique traits such as Slava and lighting the Badnjak on Christmas. These things are specific and unique to Serbs even compared to other Eastern Orthodox Christians. Of course, there are also legit Slavic Serb pagans although apart from curiosity and some other things, a dumb motivation for embracing Paganism is the false belief that Christianity is a Jewish scam (Christianity is actually Greek and Jesus was a Greek) and a form of controlled opposition for goyim to have against Jews.

    There's also people who are genuinely Serbs of the Muslim Faith and other religions that consider themselves to be Serbs and they are mostly welcome. Unfortunately, in the past there was a missed opportunity to integrate more Serbs of the Muslim Faith since the Serbian Orthodox Church was a bit too intolerant (when it was unnecessary) towards Bosnian Muslims in certain things (e.g. refusing to acknowledge marriages between Serbs and Muslims) and at certain time periods (e.g. Kingdom of Yugoslavia) in the past.

    Clearly with hindsight, the effort to universalize and de-Orthodox Serb nationhood and "identity" has been an unmitigated disaster with the decision to form Yugoslavia being the single greatest throw and catastrophe possibly experienced by any nation in the world in recorded history. In fact, this struggle existed well before the 20th century (Croat-Vatican-Habsburg peddling of Yusolavism and even supposed "Yugoslav" Croat Strossmayer stating personally "Serbs are my sworn enemies") and only a few Serbs like Jovan Sterija Popovic were wise enough to see what was coming ...


    (a lot of Serbs seem to have highly negative views of the Catholic church after all).

     

    The historical record of the Catholic Church against Orthodox Christians (not just Serbs) is atrocious, so this is with very good reason of course.

    Although in the present day having attitudes exactly identical to those at the time of the 1938 Vatican-Yugoslavia Concordat which was popularly opposed and protested against by the Serbian Orthodox Church and people is a bit unnecessary. The Vatican and Catholic Church (Polish and Croatian Catholic institutions excepted) is mostly a pathetic joke and worthless cuck institution in the modern-day compared to in the past.

    Replies: @Yevardian

  116. @Gorgeous George
    @Cyrano

    Well I agree that Croats were terrible choice of company for the Serbs but what has been done is done, now the best thing to do is not to repeat similar mistakes. All future relations should be on bilateral basis rather than alliances since those tend to shift rapidly in the Balkans.

    The History is much more complex than the Bulgars or Serbs bad, or even Croats. All people of Balkans should just keep away from empty platitudes and fake well wishes and exclamations of brotherhood. Yes, Serbia and Bulgaria should act more in sync moving forward, but no need for any official alliance, people will tear it to shreds on both sides at first chance. It will be on glass legs. Bulgaria has a huge advantage over Serbia because it's not landlocked and can trade with the world, so in that sense Serbia needs Bulgaria more than the other way around.

    But first and foremost Bulgaria needs to un-recognize Kosovo as a separate state. Call it a show of good will, I know it will be greatly appreciated in Serbia. Also the Bulgarian friends that I have understood Serbian, like they can make it out much better than the other way around. I think that that might be since Serbian is a further evolved language, it had more overhauls and it differs greatly to what it used to be some 200 years ago when it doubtlessly had many more similarities with Bulgarian. So in that sense I think that speakers of an older language can understand the younger one, but the understanding doesn't go in reverse. Also on the language topic there was the cultural influence of Yugoslavia and Serbia in Bulgaria (call it soft power) but not really the other way around.

    Some things that should be common to both countries is the threat of the globohomo movement, the sort of related demographic catastrophe and economic under-development.

    Also both countries owe their very existence to Russia.

    Bulgaria though went full Euro (path to globohomo) and gave up it's sovereignty with EU and Nato membership. This is a huge turn off. So there is really no talk of alliances but there should be real reproach starting with Bulgaria's un-recognizing of Kosovo. After that more can be done with energy, common stance in support of sovereign nations globally, support for each others sovereignty, cultural exchanges in university levels and so forth. Small steps that are basically supporting each owns rights to existence.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    d. I think that that might be since Serbian is a further evolved language, it had more overhauls and it differs greatly to what it used to be some 200 years ago when it doubtlessly had many more similarities with Bulgarian.

    Well, of course it depends on how you measure ‘evolution’, in probably the most important sense, Bulgarian is the most innovative of all Slavic languages as its the only that has dropped grammatical case entirely, replacing them all with prepositions, making it far easier to learn for foreigners.

    In general Bulgarians always struck out as the most civilised of the Balkan peoples (They were the only ones to work out a peaceful resolution with their Turkish/Muslim population; also in WW2 they refused to declare war on Russia, sheltered refugees, and just used the war settle old border disputes, to the great annoyance of Hitler.), if not for the fall of the monarchy and the massive assistance Greece received since it’s inception, it would probably be the richest and most functional as well.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
    @Yevardian

    I actually agree with George about the Bulgarian language: It’s the most archaic of all Slavic languages, and as such it is the closest to the old Slavonic language that used to be spoken by all Slavs at one point. I agree that Serbian – and pretty much all other Slavic languages are more evolved than the Bulgarian.

    On the other hand, I think that the Bulgarians are one of the finest Slavs that there are. They are extremely proud of their heritage, and I think that they are probably the most street-smart of all Slavs. They have common sense like no one else.

    I mean look just at this fact: In WW2 they were an “ally” of Germany and yet they didn’t extradite one single Jew to the CC’s. Even Israel commended them for that. You have to be really smart to pull something like that off.

    Replies: @SveVid

  117. @Dmitry
    @Anatoly Karlin


    has more people leaving for the EU despite a population base that’s almost twice smaller.
     
    But Croatia is an EU member, while Serbia is not. So there cannot be comparison in this measure, as they have a different immigration regime relative to the EU. Croatia has open borders with the EU, while Serbia has somewhat still closed borders regime (Serbians have to attain some kind of working visas to live in the EU).

    If Serbia joined the EU, then open borders would follow within a few years, and we would expect a great increase in emigration. And that potential for loss of the young labour force via emigration to the EU, would be the main argument (from a Serbian national power perspective) against Serbia joining the EU.

    Serbia would have to look at the situation in Bulgaria and Croatia, and balance the economic benefits of EU membership, against the problem of losing national power by increasing emigration.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    If Serbia joined the EU, then open borders would follow within a few years, and we would expect a great increase in emigration.

    Although true, Serbia will never join the EU.

    There will be no EU membership for Serbia regardless of what Serbia actually does. Even ignoring all the specific issues Serbia has (e.g. Serbia’s EU membership is conditioned on recognition of Kosovo, among other things), it’s the fact that most of the EU doesn’t actually want to accept Serbia at all and to a degree isn’t really genuinely capable of it due to its own serious internal problems anyway. France and Netherlands have openly vetoed to block literally any new EU membership (something only Ukrops like AP and Mr Hack don’t seem to understand). The only countries that actually seem to genuinely want Serbia to join the EU are Czech Republic/Czechia and Hungary. Andrey Babis openly expressed such a sentiment, while Orban went so far as to openly state that the EU should just drop its condition of Serbia recognizing Kosovo to join the EU. After all, if Cyprus could join the EU despite it’s issue with “North Cyprus”, why shouldn’t Serbia be able to join when it has a somewhat similar situation with Kosovo?

    Still, looking at everything that’s going on with the EU, all the shit Serbs have copped/still must endure from the EU, and the infinitely long list of reasons why it would be bad for Serbia to join the EU, this is all actually a good thing (provided the EU doesn’t end up imposing economic sanctions on Serbia for whatever reason it fancies).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I don't know anything about the region, but it seems to me best strategy for Serbia could be to maintain indefinitely the EU accession talks, , like a woman who tries to get as many restaurants dates as possible from a wealthy man, without sleeping with him.

    This way it would be possible to attain a level of funding and economic support from the EU, but without lifting the EU labour barriers (which could result in mass emigration of the young worker).

    -

    One thing pessimistic though, might be that Serbia (like Armenia and Belarus) is limited in pursuing the fashionable "multi-vector foreign policy", by the fact that it has no access to the sea.

    To some extent, the disadvantages of being a landlocked country were reduced in the 20th century with the introduction of air-travel. However, despite the increased flexibility introduced by air travel last century, it is still seems to be me that the really diplomatically successful multi-vectoring small countries, are those ones which have some kind of access to a sea.

    Well with a possible exception that Azerbaijan is successful at multi-vector policy, and only have an inland sea (the Caspian), but even that inland sea does provide them with some additional projection into Central Asia that failed multi-vector diplomacy in Armenia lacks.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @TheTotallyAnonymous

  118. @German_reader
    @SveVid


    Serbs who were converted to Catholicism between 1400-1800 were declared Croats
     
    Maybe a dumb question, but given the importance of confessional identities in the Balkans, did such people even identify as Serbs once they had converted to Catholicism? I've always assumed that Orthodoxy is a very important element of Serbian identity (a lot of Serbs seem to have highly negative views of the Catholic church after all).

    Replies: @SveVid, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Maybe a dumb question, but given the importance of confessional identities in the Balkans, did such people even identify as Serbs once they had converted to Catholicism?

    Some prominent members of their community declared themselves as Serbs as late as the end years of the 19th and early years of the 20th century and also, the Catholic Church and Austrian government did have to work for a long time to stamp out various customs and traditions

  119. @Yevardian
    @Gorgeous George


    d. I think that that might be since Serbian is a further evolved language, it had more overhauls and it differs greatly to what it used to be some 200 years ago when it doubtlessly had many more similarities with Bulgarian.
     
    Well, of course it depends on how you measure 'evolution', in probably the most important sense, Bulgarian is the most innovative of all Slavic languages as its the only that has dropped grammatical case entirely, replacing them all with prepositions, making it far easier to learn for foreigners.

    In general Bulgarians always struck out as the most civilised of the Balkan peoples (They were the only ones to work out a peaceful resolution with their Turkish/Muslim population; also in WW2 they refused to declare war on Russia, sheltered refugees, and just used the war settle old border disputes, to the great annoyance of Hitler.), if not for the fall of the monarchy and the massive assistance Greece received since it's inception, it would probably be the richest and most functional as well.

    Replies: @Cyrano

    I actually agree with George about the Bulgarian language: It’s the most archaic of all Slavic languages, and as such it is the closest to the old Slavonic language that used to be spoken by all Slavs at one point. I agree that Serbian – and pretty much all other Slavic languages are more evolved than the Bulgarian.

    On the other hand, I think that the Bulgarians are one of the finest Slavs that there are. They are extremely proud of their heritage, and I think that they are probably the most street-smart of all Slavs. They have common sense like no one else.

    I mean look just at this fact: In WW2 they were an “ally” of Germany and yet they didn’t extradite one single Jew to the CC’s. Even Israel commended them for that. You have to be really smart to pull something like that off.

    • Replies: @SveVid
    @Cyrano


    I mean look just at this fact: In WW2 they were an “ally” of Germany and yet they didn’t extradite one single Jew to the CC’s
     
    How little you know...

    What happened to all the Jews from Bulgarian occupied Macedonia in WWII?

    And as far as how civilised they are, read up on Bulgarian massacres in Serbia during WWII

    As for them not really being an ally of Germany, they controlled a large portion of the main supply route to Salonica, ths freeing German forces for the Eastern Front as well as doing a lot of dirty workfor the Germans against resistance forces, thus again freeing Germans for other fronts.

    They conveniently jumped ship right at the end when the writing was on the wall

  120. @Europe Europa
    I get the impression that Serbs hate Croats much more intensely than Albanians. They hate Albanians too, but it's more of a one issue thing over Kosovo, but they see their struggle against Croatia as a far more existential struggle. Serbs generally believe that the Croats tried to genocide them.

    Replies: @SveVid, @Korenchkin, @Bardon Kaldian, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I get the impression that Serbs hate Croats much more intensely than Albanians.

    Even if we put the past and history aside, Croats behave like Jews towards Serbs in many ways. In fact, the worst Croats are actually Croatian leftists, liberals, “anti-nationalists”, etc. because they hold exactly the same attitudes, opinions and positions toward Serbs as Croat nationalists but are deceptive, perfidious and purely evil. Croatian nationalists actually aren’t that bad, or at least are less bad, because they are honest in their pathological Serb hatred, and in some cases, this is actually a good thing because they’re a healthy reminder of what Croats are truly like (as Bardon Kaldian has excellently demonstrated in this thread already).

    Croat Jew-like behavior towards Serbs includes an ethnic Croat, Zdravko Ponos, being the General and Defence Minister of the Serbian Army from 2000-2012 where hundreds of tanks of high quality were literally publicly melted in the Smederevo steel mill, and the total army size reduced to numbers less than that of Weimar Germany (Weimar Germany is in fact a somewhat decent comparison of Serbia from 2000-2012). US ambassador to Serbia at the time, Dale Montgomery, even publicly presided over the destruction of the Serbian Army’s military equipment and proclaimed it a “triumph of democracy”/whatever.

    There are also Serbs that are SINO’s (Serbs In Name Only) who are usually and most appropriately categorized as Political Croats because their political behavior is literally identical to that of ethnic Croats (where they deliberately sabotage, destroy, annihilate, pollute and etc everything genuinely Serb), even if they are nominally Serbs (there are also other categories like “Montenegrins”, Vojvodinian autonomists, even just “citizens of Serbia” and etc.). In fact, referring to people as political Croats is an excellent litmus test of Serb nationalism. The term Political Croat also comes from the 19th century, at earliest, where the phenomenon of people who were ethnically Serb practically behaving like Croats in harming and sabotaging Serb interests was well noticed, among others by Jasa Tomic (also based on the Jewish issue).

    In Serbia and the sabotage of its domestic policy, Jews are mostly unnecessary because ethnic Croats, political Croats and crypto-Croats play the role just as well, if not even better. Serbia’s public library in Belgrade was literally closed down for years and all the precious library books, materials, etc. stolen/sold away because an ethnic Croat bitch called Branka Prpa ran the library. School textbooks in Serbia where literally written by ethnic Croat and HDZ party affiliates for years where they brainwashed Serb children about the wonderful nature of being taken into Janissaries, how Croatia supposedly owned Bosnia in the 9th century (to retroactively justify NDH/ISC borders) and other monstrosities. When Croats slaughtered entire Serb villages in Macva, the southeast near Kosovo and elsewhere in WW1, ethnic Croat governor of occupied Belgrade Stjepan Sarkotic openly terrorized Serbs in WW1, everything in WW2, all the Croat crimes against Serbs in the 1990’s, it’s no surprise that Croats will behave in this way when they get the chance to hijack positions of power in Serbia (which they did especially well during Comunist Tito Yugoslavia from 1945-1980) …

    There’s also the fact that the situation of the Serb minority in “Croatia” (the word is literally too cancerous for me to even want to say it) is in many ways arguably even worse than that of Serbs in Kosovo. Their birth rates are lower than Kosovo Serbs, it’s much easier for Serbs there to be assimilated into Croats than Serbs on Kosovo into Albanians, Croats also form gangs to beat and attack ethnic Serbs (most infamously so in Vukovar a few months ago) so at least a few times a year there’s news that they beat the shit out of some Serbs be they locals or scum that go to Croatia for tourism (the latter group actually sort of deserve it). Ethnic Serbs in “Croatia” also have electricity and water supply in many cases deliberately denied to them in the countryside because they are, well, Serbs. Meanwhile in cuck Serbia, a monument to Josip Jelacic is built in Vojvodina and the crypto-Croat presence is still allowed to fester unpunished. Of course, the fact that Vojvodina even has any autonomy is yet another Croat trick and form of sabotage from 1945 (Also the shit situation of Kosovo is also partly thanks to the Croat Tito).

    I could go on even more but this is literally all I just managed to think off from the top of my head …

    They hate Albanians too, but it’s more of a one issue thing over Kosovo,

    Albanians are just mostly low IQ, tribal-confederated, semi-Islamic primitives in comparison. So literally no one is surprised when they hear that Albanians harvested organs from Serbs, or set fire to Serb churches on Kosovo, or are trying to claim Serb heritage as “ancient Illyria-Dardania-Pelasgia autochtonos!!!”/whatever or retardedly screech on the internet about “Vuciq Miloseviqqq genocid regime!!!”, etc …

    Kosovo is Serbia is much more of a normie position by now (which is obviously a good thing) but a better litmus test of Serb nationalism is understanding all the things Croats have done to Serbs and more simply, opinions on Republika Srpska are the best litmus test of Serb nationalism in my opinion. North Albania is also ancient Serb land as well btw.

    • Agree: SveVid
    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Vlada
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Ponos is not a Croat, he is Krajina Serb.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    , @Yevardian
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    North Albania is also ancient Serb land as well btw.
     
    Serbians arrived from 'White Serbia' to the Balkans in the 7th Century though, so they don't they actually postdate Albanians? I mean, you can call them savages or whatever, but claiming Albanians migrated from Thrace (which was Latin-speaking by late-Antiquity, the original area of Vlachs/Romanians) in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise.. seems pretty weak.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

  121. @Cyrano
    @Yevardian

    I actually agree with George about the Bulgarian language: It’s the most archaic of all Slavic languages, and as such it is the closest to the old Slavonic language that used to be spoken by all Slavs at one point. I agree that Serbian – and pretty much all other Slavic languages are more evolved than the Bulgarian.

    On the other hand, I think that the Bulgarians are one of the finest Slavs that there are. They are extremely proud of their heritage, and I think that they are probably the most street-smart of all Slavs. They have common sense like no one else.

    I mean look just at this fact: In WW2 they were an “ally” of Germany and yet they didn’t extradite one single Jew to the CC’s. Even Israel commended them for that. You have to be really smart to pull something like that off.

    Replies: @SveVid

    I mean look just at this fact: In WW2 they were an “ally” of Germany and yet they didn’t extradite one single Jew to the CC’s

    How little you know…

    What happened to all the Jews from Bulgarian occupied Macedonia in WWII?

    And as far as how civilised they are, read up on Bulgarian massacres in Serbia during WWII

    As for them not really being an ally of Germany, they controlled a large portion of the main supply route to Salonica, ths freeing German forces for the Eastern Front as well as doing a lot of dirty workfor the Germans against resistance forces, thus again freeing Germans for other fronts.

    They conveniently jumped ship right at the end when the writing was on the wall

  122. @Korenchkin
    @Thulean Friend

    This is not the first Empire to humiliate Serb rulers, it will not be the last
    https://srbin.info/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/1-29.jpg


    Vucic is merely a centrist opportunist who is willing to do whatever to stay in power. He doesn’t have an ideological core
     
    Even if that is true, I'm fine with it since he's still pursuing our national interest (rebuilding the military, fixing the economy, linking up with Serb entities outside of Serbia, reconnecting with Russia, giving greater influence to the SOC, etc.)
    I prefer it to a verbal Nationalist who achieves nothing tangible

    As for the inescapable geography I already addressed that in the post, I don't see why you're pretending that I'm unaware of this fact

    Serbia will continue to be on a leash on behalf of greater powers
     
    Again, never said otherwise, we simply prefer some powers over others
    These great games influence a lot but it's rather obtuse to completely disregard the leadership of statelets, look for example at Montenegro, Albania, North Macedonia or Bulgaria

    The Melians could've avoided their massacre

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    This is not the first Empire to humiliate Serb rulers, it will not be the last

    Just so all the other Serb commenters know what you’re talking about with that image, it depicts Stefan Nemanja (the 1st one), the founder of the Great Nemanjic Dynasty of Serbia being dragged on a chain/rope through the dirt (literally) by the Byzantine Greeks because he rebelled against their imperial authority (I think it happened to him at least a few times).

    I think another good example of a Serb leader being humiliated/degraded is Patriarch Arsenije Carnojevic III being imprisoned by the Habsburgs, immediately after they stopped their war with the Ottomans, in Szentendre/North Budapest because he resisted Roman Catholicism and the stomping of Serb national rights. Fortunately in that case, those were immediately restored by the Habsburgs (although undone on and off again in many different time periods) because they needed Serbs to fight against Rakoczi’s Hungarian revolt at that time.

    Anyway, I think the single most important message to fellow Serbs comes from the great Serb Saint Nikolay Velimirovich (Also based on the issues of Jews):

    “The Serb nation must again become pious, unite, and multiply!” – Saint Nikolay Velimirovich

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Krajina (Croatian) and Vojvodina Serbs were the police force in the Austrian Hungarian Empire, weren't they? As such they would have been used to suppress nationalist and social revolutions, such as those of 1848, and maybe this is why they are not particularly liked in central Europe to this day. I know little about this role or how brutal they may have been to the local populations but maybe this could explain some of the hatred as old feeling die hard.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

  123. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Dmitry

    Close, but things are more complex. Many Serbians (Serbs from Serbia) would very dearly emigrate to various EU countries (especially Germany, Austria,..) & there was a German-concocted plan to let them in, as skilled work force, with a piece of EU legislature that would let them in. That goes for other non-EU countries in SE Europe. People were jubilant.

    But then- Covid-19 intervened .....

    Karlin & others are mostly wrong. What they write about are 3rd-4th rate issues. The majority of real problems cannot be eradicated overnight (Balkan fake macho mentality, laziness, nepotism, corruption, ...). But Serbians are still afraid, or, they're disorganized, to move against brown trash Vučić & his cronies have been letting in. They're probably corrupt, because even clumsy Serbian police could deal with that scum. But no. This is a problem that will escalate due to incredible ineptitude of Serbian policy. Even Muslims in Western Bosnia are fed up with brown coreligionists & can't stand them (pro-Turkish idiots in Sarajevo, which has become an oriental kasba shithole, are another matter).

    Here, that filth force a Serbian woman to kiss their fucking prayer rug she'd stepped on.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSHe3bMocNo

    Replies: @Dmitry, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    But Serbians are still afraid, or, they’re disorganized, to move against brown trash Vučić & his cronies have been letting in. They’re probably corrupt, because even clumsy Serbian police could deal with that scum. But no. This is a problem that will escalate due to incredible ineptitude of Serbian policy. Even Muslims in Western Bosnia are fed up with brown coreligionists & can’t stand them (pro-Turkish idiots in Sarajevo, which has become an oriental kasba shithole, are another matter).

    The whole Muslim migrants thing in Serbia is somewhat exaggerated (although yes, it is a real issue of course). It’s something that random and “obscure” internet outlets paranoically rant about because there is a significant 5th column in Serbia dedicated to trying to color-revolution/regime-change Vucic out of power which they’ve been trying to do non-stop since like 2014 (they’ve clearly lost steam with Vucic’s victory in 2020 elections this year). The genuine concern and worry over Muslim migrants is clearly something they’ve managed to latch onto currently as yet another “Vucic is a traitor narrative”. The previous ones where “Vucic is trying to sell out Kosovo and recognize it”, “Vucic is a corrupt thug”, “Vucic is brainwashing Serbs with his SNS sandwich-eater cult”, “Vucic authoritarianism” and so on. The claims that Vucic is trying to sell out Kosovo still unironically exists for several years by now and it clearly hasn’t happened (nor will it). Even though nearly all these accusations are completely baseless, the Vucic derangement syndrome among some elements in Serbia makes Trump derangement syndrome look small in comparison. It’s also in a way had a sort of good effect by shifting the “Overton window” of discourse into serious nationalism with Kosovo is Serbia becoming an openly acceptable normie attitude.

    I personally can’t really judge the extent to which the migrant problem in Serbia is bad (Croatia/Hungary deliberately refuse to let migrants pass using Serbia as a dumping ground/buffer zone, like I personally understand Hungary’s fence but they just want to keep all the migrants they should’ve let to pass to Germany/West Europe in Serbia), but the real migrant problem is in Bosnia. The Islamic SDA party deliberately floods in Muslim migrants and Jihadists with SDA minister Selmo Cekotic even bizarrely saying “we need more sexy migrants” (does he want them to breed with the “White Aryan” Bosnian Muslim women?). The problem is that the SDA has already used migrants to flood and drive Serbs out of the few villages where they still exist in the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Clearly no one is happy with Islamic-Arab, Pakistani, etc. migrants (seemingly not even the majority of non-SDA Bosniaks themselves) but this is deliberately allowed and encouraged as part of the agenda of making Islam artificially triumph in the Balkans …

  124. @Yevardian
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    In fact, Bulgaria bears a large amount of fault for the fact that Albania even exists as a country at all …
     
    Why would you want to rule over so many Albanians in the first place? Let them have it, I don't understand your logic at all.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Why would you want to rule over so many Albanians in the first place? Let them have it, I don’t understand your logic at all.

    North-Central Albania is in fact ancient Serb land. Skadar (so-called “Shkodra”) is in fact an ancient Serb city. It is the site of many Serb capital feudal lands and it is the site of the famous tale of “Building the Skadar on the Bojana [river]”. The factual proof that this land is in fact rightfully Serb is very strong.

    Albanians are literally a fake nation. In fact calling them a nation is charitable. They’re more like a tribal confederation composed of at least two different distinctly separate tribes (with even sub-tribe categories), Ghegs and Tosks (they literally speak 2 different languages). The Tosk tribe seems to be less bad than the Gheg tribe, and apparently the Ghegs are infamous for their primitivism and savagery (Ghegs are the ones Serbs mostly have to confront, while the Greeks mostly get the Tosks). Albanians also have sub-tribal blood feuds with unironic Besa oaths of murder/torture/terror and revenge for generations on end not just against non-Albanians (Serbs, Greeks but also against Slavs in Macedonia) but also commonly between each other (apparently at least a few thousand Albanians die every year from blood feuds between each other). Only literal Serb tribes of Montenegro have something remotely similar, although tribalism among Serbs in Montenegro is unique, with only say Krajina and Kosovo Serbs also having a sort of specific regional clan to support each other in positions of power, but nothing of the Albanian tribe sort. Albanian tribalism was most infamously tasted by Kosovo Serbs.

    I sort of can’t be bothered doing the whole factual and even “mathematical” proof that Albanians are a fake nation, but I’ll just generally explain it. Albania is an artificially engineered nation by Austria-Hungary to deny Serbs access to the ancient south Serb lands. This was literally factually proven by the Bulgarian historian Theodora Toleva which is also why she suffered a mysterious death …

    https://adarapress.com/2019/12/20/albania-a-creation-of-the-austro-hungarian-empire-according-records-discovered-in-the-vienna-royal-archives-by-bulgarian-historian-teodora-toleva-1968-2011/

    This is also a part of why Serbs have good reason to hate Albanians:

    https://adarapress.com/2019/12/24/what-they-dont-want-you-to-know-about-the-nato-eu-us-backed-albanian-leaders-of-kosovo-and-their-links-to-al-qaeda-and-heroin-trafficking/

    The name “Albania” was nothing more than an obscure term till the late-19th century. Modern Albanians were known by many different names including Arnauts, Avranites, Shiptars, Shqiptars, and so on meaning that their current name is actually a plagiarism of the name of the ancient Serb land called Albania. Albanians literally had like 1-2% literacy at the start of the 20th century and their language and national identity was invented by Hungarian count Gyula-Andrassy (also someone who worked on engineering “Bosnian nationhood”) among others.

    Enver Hodxha deliberately adopted a policy of de-Serbing the Serb population of Albania by forcibly assimilating them into Albanians, this was especially infamously so for the Serbs of Skadar among whom there are some to this day conscious of their Serb ancestry but have to hide this fact (there is a certain percentage of Albanians that are just assimilated Serbs). Hodxha also deliberately destroyed all the Serb heritage of Albania including the demolition of all the Serb Orthodox Churches in Albania that were clear proof of the ancient Serb heritage there.

    There’s also coastline access across “Albania” as well you know. The Drac (“Durres”/whatever) coastline is especially nice and pleasant because it’s a flat one compared to say, Montenegro’s coastline. Literally though, much of modern day Albania was in fact ruled by Serb nobles in the medieval ages and even Skanderbeg the famed “Albanian” national hero, was actually a Serb (so it’s somewhat nice of Albanians to honor Serb heritage by making so many statues of Skanderbeg).

    Genuine peaceful co-existence and integration with some Albanian tribes is possible in my opinion (some Shiptars were reliable subjects of medieval Serb kingdoms and lords, while from the 15th century some Albanians have served as loyal guards of Serb churches on Kosovo from other Albanians and Turko-Muslims), of course the return to the Serb nation of a certain percentage of Albanians, but the rest will simply need to go and return to Thrace in modern day Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey. Inland Thrace is the real original homeland of the Albanians (they might even be some sort of “Bessoi” tribe from modern day Bulgaria) which explains why there is no native word in the Albanian language for naval terms like fish, ships, anything to do with water and so on.

    I hope this makes sense to you and you won’t repeat stupidities about things like “Kosovo belongs to the Albanians” and “Albanians are a real and ancient nation” anymore.

  125. @Anatoly Karlin
    One additional point is that while Serbian demographics are nothing to write home about, it's relative strength that matters, and they're doing better than most of their relevant neighbors.

    * Croatia is in freefall due to emigration, has more people leaving for the EU despite a population base that's almost twice smaller.
    * Albanian TFR is finally crashing, and has ejected all of the gains from it and then some into the EU.
    * Similar picture in Bosnia.
    * Kosovo has almost 2M on paper, but perhaps <1M in reality. I realize it's something Serb nationalists go on about, but looking at Albania, that might not be entirely cope. (There is no good demographics info from Kosovo that I'm aware of).

    The US obviously remains the biggest problem. But if it's attention comes to be entirely occupied with other pressing matters (e.g. China), interesting things could still happen in the Balkans.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian, @Dmitry, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    * Kosovo has almost 2M on paper, but perhaps <1M in reality. I realize it's something Serb nationalists go on about, but looking at Albania, that might not be entirely cope. (There is no good demographics info from Kosovo that I'm aware of).

    For Kosovo numbers that give more reliable figures are things like number of registered cell phones, number of people that actually voted, and etc. This means that Serbs are at least 100,000 in Kosovo because at least 75,000 are counted in “Kosovo’s” own cencuses South of the Ibar River (Serbs to the north deliberately boycott for obvious reasons although their number of voters for the Serb List party is telling) while in the largest Serb exclave/enclave of Kosovska Mitrovica/North Kosovo, there are at least 25,000 Serbs, if not more. From this it means 100,000-200,000 Serbs + anywhere between 600,000-900,000 Albanians in Kosovo (The Albanian figures are the hardest to figure out obviously).

    There is also an interesting statistic (from Twitter that I can’t find now) that ethnic Balkan diasporas (in the EU, at least) mostly have significantly higher birth-rates than their co-ethnics at home (like 3+ kids on average). Probably because they have more access to money and income than at home, among other things

    The US obviously remains the biggest problem. But if it’s attention comes to be entirely occupied with other pressing matters (e.g. China), interesting things could still happen in the Balkans.

    USA will definitely increase its focus on China since it’s clear that China is becoming more and more powerful not just relative to, but literally surpassing USA levels. Still, US imperial priorities are entirely optional and arbitrary (so it’s hard to predict with 100% absolute certainty) because USA literally doesn’t have any real/legitimate national interest to concern itself with anything beyond the affairs of Canada and Mexico (and domestic affairs, of course). More US focus on Iran and China would be really ideal. I think USA attacking Iran because of Jewish Zionists is much more likely than USA attacking China (it would be more likely China attacks USA first, after successfully liberating Taiwan, or if USA tries to militarily block the Chinese liberation) because Iran is much weaker and the interest in attacking Iran is much more serious and fanatical.

    Anyway, it’s clear that the USA is in irreversible decline and that it’s a deeply divided society but one must be able to survive that (Republika Srpska might not be able to possibly) and then think about what to do in a post-USA world.

  126. @German_reader
    @SveVid


    Serbs who were converted to Catholicism between 1400-1800 were declared Croats
     
    Maybe a dumb question, but given the importance of confessional identities in the Balkans, did such people even identify as Serbs once they had converted to Catholicism? I've always assumed that Orthodoxy is a very important element of Serbian identity (a lot of Serbs seem to have highly negative views of the Catholic church after all).

    Replies: @SveVid, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    did such people even identify as Serbs once they had converted to Catholicism?

    Yes. The phenomenon of Serbs of the Roman Catholic Faith is a real thing. Matija Ban is the best example of someone that was genuinely a Serb of the Roman Catholic Faith.

    Dubrovnik was literally majority Serb for centuries (with some Italians as well). There were many openly Serb societies in Dubrovnik and clearly distinct markers of Serb ethnic identity. Unfortunately Dubrovnik was lost and Croatized in 1939 when Prince Paul signed the Cvetkovic-Macek agreement and surrendered Dubrovnik to Croats.

    This phenomenon is much more common with Serbs of the Muslim Faith though.

    I’ve always assumed that Orthodoxy is a very important element of Serbian identity

    It definitely is (but there’s more to it than just that). However, Slavic paganism causes Serb Orthodoxy to have certain unique traits such as Slava and lighting the Badnjak on Christmas. These things are specific and unique to Serbs even compared to other Eastern Orthodox Christians. Of course, there are also legit Slavic Serb pagans although apart from curiosity and some other things, a dumb motivation for embracing Paganism is the false belief that Christianity is a Jewish scam (Christianity is actually Greek and Jesus was a Greek) and a form of controlled opposition for goyim to have against Jews.

    There’s also people who are genuinely Serbs of the Muslim Faith and other religions that consider themselves to be Serbs and they are mostly welcome. Unfortunately, in the past there was a missed opportunity to integrate more Serbs of the Muslim Faith since the Serbian Orthodox Church was a bit too intolerant (when it was unnecessary) towards Bosnian Muslims in certain things (e.g. refusing to acknowledge marriages between Serbs and Muslims) and at certain time periods (e.g. Kingdom of Yugoslavia) in the past.

    Clearly with hindsight, the effort to universalize and de-Orthodox Serb nationhood and “identity” has been an unmitigated disaster with the decision to form Yugoslavia being the single greatest throw and catastrophe possibly experienced by any nation in the world in recorded history. In fact, this struggle existed well before the 20th century (Croat-Vatican-Habsburg peddling of Yusolavism and even supposed “Yugoslav” Croat Strossmayer stating personally “Serbs are my sworn enemies”) and only a few Serbs like Jovan Sterija Popovic were wise enough to see what was coming …

    (a lot of Serbs seem to have highly negative views of the Catholic church after all).

    The historical record of the Catholic Church against Orthodox Christians (not just Serbs) is atrocious, so this is with very good reason of course.

    Although in the present day having attitudes exactly identical to those at the time of the 1938 Vatican-Yugoslavia Concordat which was popularly opposed and protested against by the Serbian Orthodox Church and people is a bit unnecessary. The Vatican and Catholic Church (Polish and Croatian Catholic institutions excepted) is mostly a pathetic joke and worthless cuck institution in the modern-day compared to in the past.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    (Christianity is actually Greek and Jesus was a Greek)
     
    The first is arguable (Christianity was essentially founded by Paul of Tarsus and his gentile followers, not Jesus himself or his disciples, nearly all whom got branded as 'Judaisers'), but the second.. well that's definitely new to me. Care to explain this powerful take?

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

  127. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Korenchkin


    This is not the first Empire to humiliate Serb rulers, it will not be the last

     

    Just so all the other Serb commenters know what you’re talking about with that image, it depicts Stefan Nemanja (the 1st one), the founder of the Great Nemanjic Dynasty of Serbia being dragged on a chain/rope through the dirt (literally) by the Byzantine Greeks because he rebelled against their imperial authority (I think it happened to him at least a few times).

    I think another good example of a Serb leader being humiliated/degraded is Patriarch Arsenije Carnojevic III being imprisoned by the Habsburgs, immediately after they stopped their war with the Ottomans, in Szentendre/North Budapest because he resisted Roman Catholicism and the stomping of Serb national rights. Fortunately in that case, those were immediately restored by the Habsburgs (although undone on and off again in many different time periods) because they needed Serbs to fight against Rakoczi’s Hungarian revolt at that time.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Arsenije_III.jpg

    Anyway, I think the single most important message to fellow Serbs comes from the great Serb Saint Nikolay Velimirovich (Also based on the issues of Jews):

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/%D0%95%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BF_%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B9_%28%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87%29.JPG/440px-%D0%95%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BF_%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B9_%28%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87%29.JPG

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Ljubomir_Simonovi%C4%87_-_Vladika_Nikolaj.jpg/400px-Ljubomir_Simonovi%C4%87_-_Vladika_Nikolaj.jpg


    “The Serb nation must again become pious, unite, and multiply!” – Saint Nikolay Velimirovich

    Replies: @Commentator Mike

    Krajina (Croatian) and Vojvodina Serbs were the police force in the Austrian Hungarian Empire, weren’t they? As such they would have been used to suppress nationalist and social revolutions, such as those of 1848, and maybe this is why they are not particularly liked in central Europe to this day. I know little about this role or how brutal they may have been to the local populations but maybe this could explain some of the hatred as old feeling die hard.

    • Disagree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Commentator Mike

    Not sure if you, or anyone else genuinely interested, is still following this thread, but here's a much more relevant problem that Serbs would do well to focus more attention on right now.

    https://twitter.com/BirUlak/status/1342484113123639296


    Kosovo ..

    The TSK [Turkish Kosovo Forces] is carrying out road control and independently patrolling the border with Serbia with the Kosovo police.
     

    With "friends" like Croats and Turks, Serbs really don't need any enemies ...

    It's also clear that Turkey is going to pose a significant problem in the future for Serbs once Camp Bondsteel is gone ...

  128. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Europe Europa


    I get the impression that Serbs hate Croats much more intensely than Albanians.

     

    Even if we put the past and history aside, Croats behave like Jews towards Serbs in many ways. In fact, the worst Croats are actually Croatian leftists, liberals, “anti-nationalists”, etc. because they hold exactly the same attitudes, opinions and positions toward Serbs as Croat nationalists but are deceptive, perfidious and purely evil. Croatian nationalists actually aren’t that bad, or at least are less bad, because they are honest in their pathological Serb hatred, and in some cases, this is actually a good thing because they’re a healthy reminder of what Croats are truly like (as Bardon Kaldian has excellently demonstrated in this thread already).

    Croat Jew-like behavior towards Serbs includes an ethnic Croat, Zdravko Ponos, being the General and Defence Minister of the Serbian Army from 2000-2012 where hundreds of tanks of high quality were literally publicly melted in the Smederevo steel mill, and the total army size reduced to numbers less than that of Weimar Germany (Weimar Germany is in fact a somewhat decent comparison of Serbia from 2000-2012). US ambassador to Serbia at the time, Dale Montgomery, even publicly presided over the destruction of the Serbian Army’s military equipment and proclaimed it a “triumph of democracy”/whatever.

    There are also Serbs that are SINO’s (Serbs In Name Only) who are usually and most appropriately categorized as Political Croats because their political behavior is literally identical to that of ethnic Croats (where they deliberately sabotage, destroy, annihilate, pollute and etc everything genuinely Serb), even if they are nominally Serbs (there are also other categories like "Montenegrins", Vojvodinian autonomists, even just "citizens of Serbia" and etc.). In fact, referring to people as political Croats is an excellent litmus test of Serb nationalism. The term Political Croat also comes from the 19th century, at earliest, where the phenomenon of people who were ethnically Serb practically behaving like Croats in harming and sabotaging Serb interests was well noticed, among others by Jasa Tomic (also based on the Jewish issue).

    In Serbia and the sabotage of its domestic policy, Jews are mostly unnecessary because ethnic Croats, political Croats and crypto-Croats play the role just as well, if not even better. Serbia's public library in Belgrade was literally closed down for years and all the precious library books, materials, etc. stolen/sold away because an ethnic Croat bitch called Branka Prpa ran the library. School textbooks in Serbia where literally written by ethnic Croat and HDZ party affiliates for years where they brainwashed Serb children about the wonderful nature of being taken into Janissaries, how Croatia supposedly owned Bosnia in the 9th century (to retroactively justify NDH/ISC borders) and other monstrosities. When Croats slaughtered entire Serb villages in Macva, the southeast near Kosovo and elsewhere in WW1, ethnic Croat governor of occupied Belgrade Stjepan Sarkotic openly terrorized Serbs in WW1, everything in WW2, all the Croat crimes against Serbs in the 1990's, it's no surprise that Croats will behave in this way when they get the chance to hijack positions of power in Serbia (which they did especially well during Comunist Tito Yugoslavia from 1945-1980) ...

    There’s also the fact that the situation of the Serb minority in “Croatia” (the word is literally too cancerous for me to even want to say it) is in many ways arguably even worse than that of Serbs in Kosovo. Their birth rates are lower than Kosovo Serbs, it's much easier for Serbs there to be assimilated into Croats than Serbs on Kosovo into Albanians, Croats also form gangs to beat and attack ethnic Serbs (most infamously so in Vukovar a few months ago) so at least a few times a year there's news that they beat the shit out of some Serbs be they locals or scum that go to Croatia for tourism (the latter group actually sort of deserve it). Ethnic Serbs in "Croatia" also have electricity and water supply in many cases deliberately denied to them in the countryside because they are, well, Serbs. Meanwhile in cuck Serbia, a monument to Josip Jelacic is built in Vojvodina and the crypto-Croat presence is still allowed to fester unpunished. Of course, the fact that Vojvodina even has any autonomy is yet another Croat trick and form of sabotage from 1945 (Also the shit situation of Kosovo is also partly thanks to the Croat Tito).

    I could go on even more but this is literally all I just managed to think off from the top of my head ...

    They hate Albanians too, but it’s more of a one issue thing over Kosovo,
     
    Albanians are just mostly low IQ, tribal-confederated, semi-Islamic primitives in comparison. So literally no one is surprised when they hear that Albanians harvested organs from Serbs, or set fire to Serb churches on Kosovo, or are trying to claim Serb heritage as "ancient Illyria-Dardania-Pelasgia autochtonos!!!"/whatever or retardedly screech on the internet about "Vuciq Miloseviqqq genocid regime!!!", etc ...

    Kosovo is Serbia is much more of a normie position by now (which is obviously a good thing) but a better litmus test of Serb nationalism is understanding all the things Croats have done to Serbs and more simply, opinions on Republika Srpska are the best litmus test of Serb nationalism in my opinion. North Albania is also ancient Serb land as well btw.

    Replies: @Vlada, @Yevardian

    Ponos is not a Croat, he is Krajina Serb.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Vlada

    There's a reason why the term political Croat exists.

    I wonder what he was up to from 1991-1995? ...

  129. @AP
    @Korenchkin

    Lol, a Serb commenter wants the East Slavs to kill each other like Balkanoids do.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    They won’t have to, if Ukrainians wake up from their delusion
    This goes for overly Ukrainophobic Russians too

    They need to see it as a battle both for hearts and minds and for ports and airfields

  130. @Gorgeous George
    @Cyrano

    You're getting things wrong.


    I mean how could you choose Greece over Bulgaria in the 2nd Balkan War?
     
    The 2nd Balkan War wasn't a war of choice for Serbia, Serbia was attacked by Bulgaria. Bulgaria confessed and ceded territory after loosing.

    Not to say that Bulgaria didn't get fucked after the 1st Balkan war, when it was allied with Serbia. What none of the allied Balkan countries (Serbia, Montenegro, Greece and Bulgaria) knew on the eve of the war was that the combined west would insist on the creation of Albania. The pre-war deal was that what became Albania would be split with the north going to Serbia and Epir to Greece. What is today Northern Macedonia was to be split roughly east to Bulgaria and West to Serbia.

    Then the war Happens, Turkey is beat, Bulgaria gains access to Aegean and is right out of Constantinople.

    Then Serbia (and Greece) get screwed out of what became Albania by the combined West. Serbia (a bit butthurt and with claims of Bulgarians negating alliance obligations by not committing troops) then keeps it's gains against the Turks in what is Northern Macedonia. Bulgaria is pissed.

    So Serbia got fucked by the west, fucks over Bulgaria for half of Macedonia.

    Bulgaria then attacks Serbia. Night raid, well documented. Bulgaria rolled that dice, foolishly. Then seeing that Bulgaria couldn't defeat the Serbs and was stuck then it got attacked by Turkey and Greece and Romania. As a result Bulgaria got fucked royally, Turkey regained a foothold in Europe, Bulgaria lost all of it's Aegean coast and it ceded territory to Serbia as compensation.

    Then comes WW1 and Bulgaria then actually backstabs Serbia and does fucked up things to the local population and then does the same thing again in WW2. Long story short Bulgaria attacked Serbia three times in three consecutive wars. Can't really call that Serbian backstabbing. Serbia did fuck Bulgars (which was wrong, even if Serbia first did get fucked out of Adriatic coast by the West) over after 1st Balkan war but fucking over one side and attacking are different things.

    Russia has always been more pro-Serbian than pro-Bulgarian
     
    Not really, San Stefan peace accords are case in point, as well as what you said about Stalin.

    Serbs are more passionate Russian butt-kissers
     
    Being that there would be no Serbia to speak of if Russia doesn't step in WW1 I call Serbian feelings toward Russia simple gratitude and is woefully underdone. Russia literally took a bullet for Serbia (the empire died) and Serbia lived on. Being that Serbia lost like a third of it's population in a war it WON it's safe to assume that there would be no Serbia or Serbs without the Russian intervention.

    Other than that I agree that Serbs and Bulgarians should let bygones be and focus on their respective sovereignty and demographic problems. It would also be nice if Orthodox Bulgaria would not backstab Serbia by recognizing Kosovo, so there's the perfect 1st step on ending broken relations.

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

    I hope they can get along and cooperate with each other, for sure.

    But there will be no meaningful “Orthodoz Bulgaria” because there will soon be almost no orthdox Bulgarian people of childbearing age and younger in the country. Those who stay do not have children and they are simply going to vanish as a people. From a 1985 peak of 9 million, the population has dropped to 6.9 million and is declining by 50-60,000 people every year. This rate of decline will likely double, then triple, as old people die off and the number of (non-Muslim) women of childbearing age dwindles to almost nothing within one more generation.

    Meanwhile, the Muslims in Bulgaria continue to grow as a percentage of the declining and aging population, approaching 15% and likely to jump in the near future as many orthodox bulgarians die off in the next 20 years with few to no grandchildren left behind (especially actually living in Bulgaria).

    https://balkaninsight.com/2020/02/26/where-did-everyone-go-the-sad-slow-emptying-of-bulgarias-vidin/

    If the Russians don’t start having children themselves and taking control of rapidly depopulating nearby countries like Bulgaria, Ukraine, and Latvia, some other people will — perhaps the Turks or even the Chinese.

    • Agree: Gorgeous George
  131. @Vlada
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Ponos is not a Croat, he is Krajina Serb.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    There’s a reason why the term political Croat exists.

    I wonder what he was up to from 1991-1995? …

  132. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Dmitry

    Eh...my country is only partially in the Balkans region. Also, you must not forget one thing- people here tend to have not too demanding jobs (some of them), so they have more time to waste. It doesn't apply, of course, to what I call "real work": nurses, a part of scientists (just a part), most MDs, .....

    I am not talking about this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB_d8CmIDq0

    Replies: @Dmitry

    country is only partially in the Balkans region

    Lol is this normal for the Croatian nationalists? “My country is only partially in the Balkans”. The consider yourselves like a civilized white European people, with only one foot “partially” stepped in the mud of the Balkans – the bottom of the feet blackened like pied-noirs?

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Dmitry


    Lol is this normal for the Croatian nationalists?
     
    Yes.

    Bardon Kaldian would literally jump right into your face out of the digital screen you are reading this on, and then swallow your dick super deep and hard just so you don't consider him to be "Balkan" and instead think he is "civilized", "white European" and "pure" from anything Balkan.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  133. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Dmitry


    If Serbia joined the EU, then open borders would follow within a few years, and we would expect a great increase in emigration.
     
    Although true, Serbia will never join the EU.

    There will be no EU membership for Serbia regardless of what Serbia actually does. Even ignoring all the specific issues Serbia has (e.g. Serbia’s EU membership is conditioned on recognition of Kosovo, among other things), it’s the fact that most of the EU doesn’t actually want to accept Serbia at all and to a degree isn’t really genuinely capable of it due to its own serious internal problems anyway. France and Netherlands have openly vetoed to block literally any new EU membership (something only Ukrops like AP and Mr Hack don’t seem to understand). The only countries that actually seem to genuinely want Serbia to join the EU are Czech Republic/Czechia and Hungary. Andrey Babis openly expressed such a sentiment, while Orban went so far as to openly state that the EU should just drop its condition of Serbia recognizing Kosovo to join the EU. After all, if Cyprus could join the EU despite it’s issue with “North Cyprus”, why shouldn’t Serbia be able to join when it has a somewhat similar situation with Kosovo?

    Still, looking at everything that’s going on with the EU, all the shit Serbs have copped/still must endure from the EU, and the infinitely long list of reasons why it would be bad for Serbia to join the EU, this is all actually a good thing (provided the EU doesn’t end up imposing economic sanctions on Serbia for whatever reason it fancies).

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I don’t know anything about the region, but it seems to me best strategy for Serbia could be to maintain indefinitely the EU accession talks, , like a woman who tries to get as many restaurants dates as possible from a wealthy man, without sleeping with him.

    This way it would be possible to attain a level of funding and economic support from the EU, but without lifting the EU labour barriers (which could result in mass emigration of the young worker).

    One thing pessimistic though, might be that Serbia (like Armenia and Belarus) is limited in pursuing the fashionable “multi-vector foreign policy”, by the fact that it has no access to the sea.

    To some extent, the disadvantages of being a landlocked country were reduced in the 20th century with the introduction of air-travel. However, despite the increased flexibility introduced by air travel last century, it is still seems to be me that the really diplomatically successful multi-vectoring small countries, are those ones which have some kind of access to a sea.

    Well with a possible exception that Azerbaijan is successful at multi-vector policy, and only have an inland sea (the Caspian), but even that inland sea does provide them with some additional projection into Central Asia that failed multi-vector diplomacy in Armenia lacks.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    Well with a possible exception that Azerbaijan is successful at multi-vector policy, and only have an inland sea (the Caspian), but even that inland sea does provide them with some additional projection into Central Asia that failed multi-vector diplomacy in Armenia lacks.
     
    Armenia's 'multi-vector' policy failed because it turned out Pashinian was a complete imbecile, the local press can barely keep up with the amount of leaks revealing the criminal incompetence and stupidity of the (rapidly bleeding out, but still standing) administration.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Dmitry


    I don’t know anything about the region, but it seems to me best strategy for Serbia could be to maintain indefinitely the EU accession talks
     
    That's what Vucic has been doing so far for the past several years. Still, all farces and fakeries must come to an end, one way or another, sooner or later.

    like a woman who tries to get as many restaurants dates as possible from a wealthy man, without sleeping with him.

     

    Interesting way to describe "non-alignment", geopolitical neutrality and "multi-vector" policy.

    What's interesting about this though is that geopolitical neutrality and careful diplomacy between great powers is a historic Serb tradition(e.g. Despotate of Serbia in 15th century and Principality/Kingdom of Serbia in 19th century), not some kind of Yugoslav Tito "non-alignment" bullshit (Tito Yugoslavia was in everything but on paper a NATO member and non-aligned movement harmed USSR far more than USA).


    This way it would be possible to attain a level of funding and economic support from the EU
     
    More like endure and survive an unfortunate economic dependency on the EU.

    still seems to be me that the really diplomatically successful multi-vectoring small countries, are those ones which have some kind of access to a sea.

     

    I think Serbia under Vucic has been quite successful at "multi-vectoring" (away from USA, EU and NATO unlike Armenia and Belarus that "multi-vector" away from Russia) so far. It should be common sense that sea access isn't decisive in whether a "multi-vector" policy is successful or not. (e.g. Switzerland, but Singapore is a different story).

    Replies: @Dmitry

  134. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Europe Europa


    I get the impression that Serbs hate Croats much more intensely than Albanians.

     

    Even if we put the past and history aside, Croats behave like Jews towards Serbs in many ways. In fact, the worst Croats are actually Croatian leftists, liberals, “anti-nationalists”, etc. because they hold exactly the same attitudes, opinions and positions toward Serbs as Croat nationalists but are deceptive, perfidious and purely evil. Croatian nationalists actually aren’t that bad, or at least are less bad, because they are honest in their pathological Serb hatred, and in some cases, this is actually a good thing because they’re a healthy reminder of what Croats are truly like (as Bardon Kaldian has excellently demonstrated in this thread already).

    Croat Jew-like behavior towards Serbs includes an ethnic Croat, Zdravko Ponos, being the General and Defence Minister of the Serbian Army from 2000-2012 where hundreds of tanks of high quality were literally publicly melted in the Smederevo steel mill, and the total army size reduced to numbers less than that of Weimar Germany (Weimar Germany is in fact a somewhat decent comparison of Serbia from 2000-2012). US ambassador to Serbia at the time, Dale Montgomery, even publicly presided over the destruction of the Serbian Army’s military equipment and proclaimed it a “triumph of democracy”/whatever.

    There are also Serbs that are SINO’s (Serbs In Name Only) who are usually and most appropriately categorized as Political Croats because their political behavior is literally identical to that of ethnic Croats (where they deliberately sabotage, destroy, annihilate, pollute and etc everything genuinely Serb), even if they are nominally Serbs (there are also other categories like "Montenegrins", Vojvodinian autonomists, even just "citizens of Serbia" and etc.). In fact, referring to people as political Croats is an excellent litmus test of Serb nationalism. The term Political Croat also comes from the 19th century, at earliest, where the phenomenon of people who were ethnically Serb practically behaving like Croats in harming and sabotaging Serb interests was well noticed, among others by Jasa Tomic (also based on the Jewish issue).

    In Serbia and the sabotage of its domestic policy, Jews are mostly unnecessary because ethnic Croats, political Croats and crypto-Croats play the role just as well, if not even better. Serbia's public library in Belgrade was literally closed down for years and all the precious library books, materials, etc. stolen/sold away because an ethnic Croat bitch called Branka Prpa ran the library. School textbooks in Serbia where literally written by ethnic Croat and HDZ party affiliates for years where they brainwashed Serb children about the wonderful nature of being taken into Janissaries, how Croatia supposedly owned Bosnia in the 9th century (to retroactively justify NDH/ISC borders) and other monstrosities. When Croats slaughtered entire Serb villages in Macva, the southeast near Kosovo and elsewhere in WW1, ethnic Croat governor of occupied Belgrade Stjepan Sarkotic openly terrorized Serbs in WW1, everything in WW2, all the Croat crimes against Serbs in the 1990's, it's no surprise that Croats will behave in this way when they get the chance to hijack positions of power in Serbia (which they did especially well during Comunist Tito Yugoslavia from 1945-1980) ...

    There’s also the fact that the situation of the Serb minority in “Croatia” (the word is literally too cancerous for me to even want to say it) is in many ways arguably even worse than that of Serbs in Kosovo. Their birth rates are lower than Kosovo Serbs, it's much easier for Serbs there to be assimilated into Croats than Serbs on Kosovo into Albanians, Croats also form gangs to beat and attack ethnic Serbs (most infamously so in Vukovar a few months ago) so at least a few times a year there's news that they beat the shit out of some Serbs be they locals or scum that go to Croatia for tourism (the latter group actually sort of deserve it). Ethnic Serbs in "Croatia" also have electricity and water supply in many cases deliberately denied to them in the countryside because they are, well, Serbs. Meanwhile in cuck Serbia, a monument to Josip Jelacic is built in Vojvodina and the crypto-Croat presence is still allowed to fester unpunished. Of course, the fact that Vojvodina even has any autonomy is yet another Croat trick and form of sabotage from 1945 (Also the shit situation of Kosovo is also partly thanks to the Croat Tito).

    I could go on even more but this is literally all I just managed to think off from the top of my head ...

    They hate Albanians too, but it’s more of a one issue thing over Kosovo,
     
    Albanians are just mostly low IQ, tribal-confederated, semi-Islamic primitives in comparison. So literally no one is surprised when they hear that Albanians harvested organs from Serbs, or set fire to Serb churches on Kosovo, or are trying to claim Serb heritage as "ancient Illyria-Dardania-Pelasgia autochtonos!!!"/whatever or retardedly screech on the internet about "Vuciq Miloseviqqq genocid regime!!!", etc ...

    Kosovo is Serbia is much more of a normie position by now (which is obviously a good thing) but a better litmus test of Serb nationalism is understanding all the things Croats have done to Serbs and more simply, opinions on Republika Srpska are the best litmus test of Serb nationalism in my opinion. North Albania is also ancient Serb land as well btw.

    Replies: @Vlada, @Yevardian

    North Albania is also ancient Serb land as well btw.

    Serbians arrived from ‘White Serbia’ to the Balkans in the 7th Century though, so they don’t they actually postdate Albanians? I mean, you can call them savages or whatever, but claiming Albanians migrated from Thrace (which was Latin-speaking by late-Antiquity, the original area of Vlachs/Romanians) in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise.. seems pretty weak.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Yevardian


    Serbians arrived from ‘White Serbia’ to the Balkans in the 7th Century though, so they don’t they actually postdate Albanians?
     
    There is no evidence of "Albanians" existing in current Albania until the 11th/12th centuries.

    you can call them savages or whatever
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBSPN8FciQQ

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbXWbVRXkAM9X5L.jpg

    Perhaps maybe there's a good reason to call them "savages" (especially the Gheg tribe and Albanian tribal elements facing off against Serbs)?


    but claiming Albanians migrated from Thrace (which was Latin-speaking by late-Antiquity, the original area of Vlachs/Romanians) in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise.. seems pretty weak.

     

    I don't care where they came from (although the inland Thrace theory is strongest).

    The point is that they're clearly not native to modern-day Albania and the neighboring region they live in and they're not some sort of damn "Illyrians" (In reality, all the "Illyrians" mixed into modern-day Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks in varying levels). You can try as hard as you like to prove that they're "native" to modern-day Albania, but they're simply not and you can't find a single fact to prove it. In fact, the proof is there that they're deliberately destroying or appropriating Serb heritage in ancient South Serbia.

    They're occupying land and heritage that rightfully belongs to Serbs.

    Full stop.

  135. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @German_reader


    did such people even identify as Serbs once they had converted to Catholicism?
     
    Yes. The phenomenon of Serbs of the Roman Catholic Faith is a real thing. Matija Ban is the best example of someone that was genuinely a Serb of the Roman Catholic Faith.

    Dubrovnik was literally majority Serb for centuries (with some Italians as well). There were many openly Serb societies in Dubrovnik and clearly distinct markers of Serb ethnic identity. Unfortunately Dubrovnik was lost and Croatized in 1939 when Prince Paul signed the Cvetkovic-Macek agreement and surrendered Dubrovnik to Croats.

    This phenomenon is much more common with Serbs of the Muslim Faith though.


    I’ve always assumed that Orthodoxy is a very important element of Serbian identity
     
    It definitely is (but there’s more to it than just that). However, Slavic paganism causes Serb Orthodoxy to have certain unique traits such as Slava and lighting the Badnjak on Christmas. These things are specific and unique to Serbs even compared to other Eastern Orthodox Christians. Of course, there are also legit Slavic Serb pagans although apart from curiosity and some other things, a dumb motivation for embracing Paganism is the false belief that Christianity is a Jewish scam (Christianity is actually Greek and Jesus was a Greek) and a form of controlled opposition for goyim to have against Jews.

    There's also people who are genuinely Serbs of the Muslim Faith and other religions that consider themselves to be Serbs and they are mostly welcome. Unfortunately, in the past there was a missed opportunity to integrate more Serbs of the Muslim Faith since the Serbian Orthodox Church was a bit too intolerant (when it was unnecessary) towards Bosnian Muslims in certain things (e.g. refusing to acknowledge marriages between Serbs and Muslims) and at certain time periods (e.g. Kingdom of Yugoslavia) in the past.

    Clearly with hindsight, the effort to universalize and de-Orthodox Serb nationhood and "identity" has been an unmitigated disaster with the decision to form Yugoslavia being the single greatest throw and catastrophe possibly experienced by any nation in the world in recorded history. In fact, this struggle existed well before the 20th century (Croat-Vatican-Habsburg peddling of Yusolavism and even supposed "Yugoslav" Croat Strossmayer stating personally "Serbs are my sworn enemies") and only a few Serbs like Jovan Sterija Popovic were wise enough to see what was coming ...


    (a lot of Serbs seem to have highly negative views of the Catholic church after all).

     

    The historical record of the Catholic Church against Orthodox Christians (not just Serbs) is atrocious, so this is with very good reason of course.

    Although in the present day having attitudes exactly identical to those at the time of the 1938 Vatican-Yugoslavia Concordat which was popularly opposed and protested against by the Serbian Orthodox Church and people is a bit unnecessary. The Vatican and Catholic Church (Polish and Croatian Catholic institutions excepted) is mostly a pathetic joke and worthless cuck institution in the modern-day compared to in the past.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    (Christianity is actually Greek and Jesus was a Greek)

    The first is arguable (Christianity was essentially founded by Paul of Tarsus and his gentile followers, not Jesus himself or his disciples, nearly all whom got branded as ‘Judaisers’), but the second.. well that’s definitely new to me. Care to explain this powerful take?

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Yevardian


    Care to explain this powerful take?

     

    Simple.

    Why do you think the Jewish Rabbi's hated Jesus so much and got the Romans to crucify him?

    Because he was simply a "misled" fellow Jew?

    Which banks do you think Jesus burst into and cursed the "bankers" from their ill gotten gains?

    This is also plausible because in ancient times Greeks lived all across the Middle East. For instance, Alexandria is famed for its ancient Greek library. I don't think further explanation of the obvious significant Greek presence in the Levant before the Arab and Islamic conquests of 7th-8th centuries AD is necessary.

    Replies: @Yevardian

  136. @Dmitry
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I don't know anything about the region, but it seems to me best strategy for Serbia could be to maintain indefinitely the EU accession talks, , like a woman who tries to get as many restaurants dates as possible from a wealthy man, without sleeping with him.

    This way it would be possible to attain a level of funding and economic support from the EU, but without lifting the EU labour barriers (which could result in mass emigration of the young worker).

    -

    One thing pessimistic though, might be that Serbia (like Armenia and Belarus) is limited in pursuing the fashionable "multi-vector foreign policy", by the fact that it has no access to the sea.

    To some extent, the disadvantages of being a landlocked country were reduced in the 20th century with the introduction of air-travel. However, despite the increased flexibility introduced by air travel last century, it is still seems to be me that the really diplomatically successful multi-vectoring small countries, are those ones which have some kind of access to a sea.

    Well with a possible exception that Azerbaijan is successful at multi-vector policy, and only have an inland sea (the Caspian), but even that inland sea does provide them with some additional projection into Central Asia that failed multi-vector diplomacy in Armenia lacks.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Well with a possible exception that Azerbaijan is successful at multi-vector policy, and only have an inland sea (the Caspian), but even that inland sea does provide them with some additional projection into Central Asia that failed multi-vector diplomacy in Armenia lacks.

    Armenia’s ‘multi-vector’ policy failed because it turned out Pashinian was a complete imbecile, the local press can barely keep up with the amount of leaks revealing the criminal incompetence and stupidity of the (rapidly bleeding out, but still standing) administration.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Yevardian

    My first intuition (for the little this is worth) when I watched videos of Pashinyan, was that he looked like he is someone with narcissistic personality disorder, and that he reminds us of Saakashvili.

    We saw now some comic evidence that he seems to have some degree of narcissism, with the Facebook play about his wife fighting as a soldier against Azerbaijan, or his anger when protesters stole his perfume.

    Pashinyan also has some similarity to Netanyahu, in his physical appearance and way of presenting himself. Netanyahu is famous for his narcissistic personality disorder, but at least he balances his character flaws, with the confidence of high testosterone and wisdom of decades of political experience. While Pashinyan was in the opposition until 2018, and so had no experience of external policy until recently - he was a beginner in the driver's seat.

    That said, Pashinyan is not responsible for Armenia's weakness in relation to Azerbaijan. He inherited this situation which has developed over two decades, in which Azerbaijan now has more than three times larger population and GDP. Pashinyan poorly managed the relationship with Russia, but even with a different leader the noninterventionalism of Russia in the conflict until the final resolution would have been the same, as the Russia-Azerbaijan relation is considered to be important, and intervention in the conflict would have alienated Azerbaijan from Russia.

    Moreover, unlike Saakashvili, Pashinyan has not begun the conflict. Rather, it was well timed by Azerbaijan.

  137. @Dmitry
    @Bardon Kaldian


    country is only partially in the Balkans region
     
    Lol is this normal for the Croatian nationalists? "My country is only partially in the Balkans". The consider yourselves like a civilized white European people, with only one foot "partially" stepped in the mud of the Balkans - the bottom of the feet blackened like pied-noirs?

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Lol is this normal for the Croatian nationalists?

    Yes.

    Bardon Kaldian would literally jump right into your face out of the digital screen you are reading this on, and then swallow your dick super deep and hard just so you don’t consider him to be “Balkan” and instead think he is “civilized”, “white European” and “pure” from anything Balkan.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Croats are after all the greatest butchers of Balkan! No civilized people would have ever done what they did to their kin.

  138. @Dmitry
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I don't know anything about the region, but it seems to me best strategy for Serbia could be to maintain indefinitely the EU accession talks, , like a woman who tries to get as many restaurants dates as possible from a wealthy man, without sleeping with him.

    This way it would be possible to attain a level of funding and economic support from the EU, but without lifting the EU labour barriers (which could result in mass emigration of the young worker).

    -

    One thing pessimistic though, might be that Serbia (like Armenia and Belarus) is limited in pursuing the fashionable "multi-vector foreign policy", by the fact that it has no access to the sea.

    To some extent, the disadvantages of being a landlocked country were reduced in the 20th century with the introduction of air-travel. However, despite the increased flexibility introduced by air travel last century, it is still seems to be me that the really diplomatically successful multi-vectoring small countries, are those ones which have some kind of access to a sea.

    Well with a possible exception that Azerbaijan is successful at multi-vector policy, and only have an inland sea (the Caspian), but even that inland sea does provide them with some additional projection into Central Asia that failed multi-vector diplomacy in Armenia lacks.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I don’t know anything about the region, but it seems to me best strategy for Serbia could be to maintain indefinitely the EU accession talks

    That’s what Vucic has been doing so far for the past several years. Still, all farces and fakeries must come to an end, one way or another, sooner or later.

    like a woman who tries to get as many restaurants dates as possible from a wealthy man, without sleeping with him.

    Interesting way to describe “non-alignment”, geopolitical neutrality and “multi-vector” policy.

    What’s interesting about this though is that geopolitical neutrality and careful diplomacy between great powers is a historic Serb tradition(e.g. Despotate of Serbia in 15th century and Principality/Kingdom of Serbia in 19th century), not some kind of Yugoslav Tito “non-alignment” bullshit (Tito Yugoslavia was in everything but on paper a NATO member and non-aligned movement harmed USSR far more than USA).

    This way it would be possible to attain a level of funding and economic support from the EU

    More like endure and survive an unfortunate economic dependency on the EU.

    still seems to be me that the really diplomatically successful multi-vectoring small countries, are those ones which have some kind of access to a sea.

    I think Serbia under Vucic has been quite successful at “multi-vectoring” (away from USA, EU and NATO unlike Armenia and Belarus that “multi-vector” away from Russia) so far. It should be common sense that sea access isn’t decisive in whether a “multi-vector” policy is successful or not. (e.g. Switzerland, but Singapore is a different story).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Switzerland has multi-vector external policy with the nationalities it shares land borders with (French, Italians, Germans). During the Revolutionary Wars, a Russian army tried to defend Switzerland from France, but only as a conditional force invited by Holy Roman Empire that shared landborders with it.

    On the other hand, maritime Portugal, could play against local enemies, using support from far abroad powers like Britain and Netherlands, and ally with them independently.

    The invention of air travel in the 20th century, might have reduced the limitation of landlocked countries to some extent, but these countries still have clearly a limited ability to multi-vector with distant alliances, and are more dependent on having good relations with their close neighbours.

    -

    Lukashenko in Belarus has additional problems for his multivector policy of having a not very democratic form of government, which is ideologically embarrassing for the European countries. In this Belarus is in a position similar to Azerbaijan. But Belarus has been trying to have multi-vector policy with those European countries, while Aliev is "multi-vectoring" primarily between Turkey and Russia, which do not feel ideologically embarrassed about his form of government.

  139. @Yevardian
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    North Albania is also ancient Serb land as well btw.
     
    Serbians arrived from 'White Serbia' to the Balkans in the 7th Century though, so they don't they actually postdate Albanians? I mean, you can call them savages or whatever, but claiming Albanians migrated from Thrace (which was Latin-speaking by late-Antiquity, the original area of Vlachs/Romanians) in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise.. seems pretty weak.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Serbians arrived from ‘White Serbia’ to the Balkans in the 7th Century though, so they don’t they actually postdate Albanians?

    There is no evidence of “Albanians” existing in current Albania until the 11th/12th centuries.

    you can call them savages or whatever


    Perhaps maybe there’s a good reason to call them “savages” (especially the Gheg tribe and Albanian tribal elements facing off against Serbs)?

    but claiming Albanians migrated from Thrace (which was Latin-speaking by late-Antiquity, the original area of Vlachs/Romanians) in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise.. seems pretty weak.

    I don’t care where they came from (although the inland Thrace theory is strongest).

    The point is that they’re clearly not native to modern-day Albania and the neighboring region they live in and they’re not some sort of damn “Illyrians” (In reality, all the “Illyrians” mixed into modern-day Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks in varying levels). You can try as hard as you like to prove that they’re “native” to modern-day Albania, but they’re simply not and you can’t find a single fact to prove it. In fact, the proof is there that they’re deliberately destroying or appropriating Serb heritage in ancient South Serbia.

    They’re occupying land and heritage that rightfully belongs to Serbs.

    Full stop.

  140. @Gorgeous George
    @Tony

    Why not?

    The combined west bombed, sanctioned and ripped Serbia apart three times in the last century, while China held it's back in the UN and helped massively at the onset of Covid.

    I don't see your logic besides that you might hold a grudge with China for taking US jobs or something, why Serbia should care about any of that is besides me.

    Replies: @Tony

    “while China held it’s back in the UN and helped massively at the onset of Covid.”

    Yeah China helped out with Covid alright. You mean like someone beating the crap out of you and then calling an ambulance for you.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Tony

    Seethe harder Americuck.

    https://www.beltandroad.news/2020/08/06/chinas-expanding-global-footprint-roils-a-reluctant-nato/

    https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/01/01/serbia-china-s-open-door-to-balkans-pub-78054

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-10/22/c_137549115.htm

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-04/02/c_138941828.htm

    https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/serbia-buys-6-wing-loong-drones-from-china.578830/

    https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25437/Serbia_Buys_Chinese_Wing_Loong_Attack_Drones

    https://www.mpravde.gov.rs/en/vest/20594/iron-friendship-between-serbia-and-china-.php

    https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1201327.shtml

    https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/china-prc-vs-serbia-national-flag-textile-relationship-asian-european-countries-people-s-republic-170582233.jpg

    Replies: @Tony

  141. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Dmitry


    I don’t know anything about the region, but it seems to me best strategy for Serbia could be to maintain indefinitely the EU accession talks
     
    That's what Vucic has been doing so far for the past several years. Still, all farces and fakeries must come to an end, one way or another, sooner or later.

    like a woman who tries to get as many restaurants dates as possible from a wealthy man, without sleeping with him.

     

    Interesting way to describe "non-alignment", geopolitical neutrality and "multi-vector" policy.

    What's interesting about this though is that geopolitical neutrality and careful diplomacy between great powers is a historic Serb tradition(e.g. Despotate of Serbia in 15th century and Principality/Kingdom of Serbia in 19th century), not some kind of Yugoslav Tito "non-alignment" bullshit (Tito Yugoslavia was in everything but on paper a NATO member and non-aligned movement harmed USSR far more than USA).


    This way it would be possible to attain a level of funding and economic support from the EU
     
    More like endure and survive an unfortunate economic dependency on the EU.

    still seems to be me that the really diplomatically successful multi-vectoring small countries, are those ones which have some kind of access to a sea.

     

    I think Serbia under Vucic has been quite successful at "multi-vectoring" (away from USA, EU and NATO unlike Armenia and Belarus that "multi-vector" away from Russia) so far. It should be common sense that sea access isn't decisive in whether a "multi-vector" policy is successful or not. (e.g. Switzerland, but Singapore is a different story).

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Switzerland has multi-vector external policy with the nationalities it shares land borders with (French, Italians, Germans). During the Revolutionary Wars, a Russian army tried to defend Switzerland from France, but only as a conditional force invited by Holy Roman Empire that shared landborders with it.

    On the other hand, maritime Portugal, could play against local enemies, using support from far abroad powers like Britain and Netherlands, and ally with them independently.

    The invention of air travel in the 20th century, might have reduced the limitation of landlocked countries to some extent, but these countries still have clearly a limited ability to multi-vector with distant alliances, and are more dependent on having good relations with their close neighbours.

    Lukashenko in Belarus has additional problems for his multivector policy of having a not very democratic form of government, which is ideologically embarrassing for the European countries. In this Belarus is in a position similar to Azerbaijan. But Belarus has been trying to have multi-vector policy with those European countries, while Aliev is “multi-vectoring” primarily between Turkey and Russia, which do not feel ideologically embarrassed about his form of government.

  142. @Yevardian
    @Dmitry


    Well with a possible exception that Azerbaijan is successful at multi-vector policy, and only have an inland sea (the Caspian), but even that inland sea does provide them with some additional projection into Central Asia that failed multi-vector diplomacy in Armenia lacks.
     
    Armenia's 'multi-vector' policy failed because it turned out Pashinian was a complete imbecile, the local press can barely keep up with the amount of leaks revealing the criminal incompetence and stupidity of the (rapidly bleeding out, but still standing) administration.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    My first intuition (for the little this is worth) when I watched videos of Pashinyan, was that he looked like he is someone with narcissistic personality disorder, and that he reminds us of Saakashvili.

    We saw now some comic evidence that he seems to have some degree of narcissism, with the Facebook play about his wife fighting as a soldier against Azerbaijan, or his anger when protesters stole his perfume.

    Pashinyan also has some similarity to Netanyahu, in his physical appearance and way of presenting himself. Netanyahu is famous for his narcissistic personality disorder, but at least he balances his character flaws, with the confidence of high testosterone and wisdom of decades of political experience. While Pashinyan was in the opposition until 2018, and so had no experience of external policy until recently – he was a beginner in the driver’s seat.

    That said, Pashinyan is not responsible for Armenia’s weakness in relation to Azerbaijan. He inherited this situation which has developed over two decades, in which Azerbaijan now has more than three times larger population and GDP. Pashinyan poorly managed the relationship with Russia, but even with a different leader the noninterventionalism of Russia in the conflict until the final resolution would have been the same, as the Russia-Azerbaijan relation is considered to be important, and intervention in the conflict would have alienated Azerbaijan from Russia.

    Moreover, unlike Saakashvili, Pashinyan has not begun the conflict. Rather, it was well timed by Azerbaijan.

  143. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Dmitry


    Lol is this normal for the Croatian nationalists?
     
    Yes.

    Bardon Kaldian would literally jump right into your face out of the digital screen you are reading this on, and then swallow your dick super deep and hard just so you don't consider him to be "Balkan" and instead think he is "civilized", "white European" and "pure" from anything Balkan.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Croats are after all the greatest butchers of Balkan! No civilized people would have ever done what they did to their kin.

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
  144. @Jimmy1969
    Serbia has produced a few tennis players; other than that they are nothing. They play no roll in the world. Why write an article about them.

    Replies: @Commentator Mike, @jimmy1969

    Ancient history…they are nothing today. We are now smarter than we used to be. No one would start a war for them. Nato wiped them out in 2 days in the 90s.

    • Troll: TheTotallyAnonymous
  145. @Yevardian
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    (Christianity is actually Greek and Jesus was a Greek)
     
    The first is arguable (Christianity was essentially founded by Paul of Tarsus and his gentile followers, not Jesus himself or his disciples, nearly all whom got branded as 'Judaisers'), but the second.. well that's definitely new to me. Care to explain this powerful take?

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Care to explain this powerful take?

    Simple.

    Why do you think the Jewish Rabbi’s hated Jesus so much and got the Romans to crucify him?

    Because he was simply a “misled” fellow Jew?

    Which banks do you think Jesus burst into and cursed the “bankers” from their ill gotten gains?

    This is also plausible because in ancient times Greeks lived all across the Middle East. For instance, Alexandria is famed for its ancient Greek library. I don’t think further explanation of the obvious significant Greek presence in the Levant before the Arab and Islamic conquests of 7th-8th centuries AD is necessary.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Ok, this is an old thread now, so I don't know if you'll see it, but even the most elementary reading of the Bible well establishes that Jesus was a Jew, or at the very least, not 'Greek'. One of the key claims to his being the Messiah is that he comes from the direct line of King David, for Chrissake. All the apostles were also Hebrews, and at once memorable instance (Mark 7:27, Mathew 15:26) Jesus even says, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs" in reference to preaching to gentiles, in this case a Phoenician woman, although he heals her anyway.

    Anyway, in general, if you look at what little we know of the life Jesus himself, he addresses himself almost entirely to Jews, speaks in the context of Hebrew history, etc, etc. Jesus spoke Greek as any educated person of the region would have been able to, which isn't the same as being Greek.
    Unless you're one of those people who draws a hard distinction between the Ancient Hebrews and modern-day Judaism, which really starts with the Pharisees and only developed fully with the codification of the Babylonian Talmud (authoritative over the Palestinian Talmud) in the Sassanian Empire, several centuries later.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

  146. @Commentator Mike
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Krajina (Croatian) and Vojvodina Serbs were the police force in the Austrian Hungarian Empire, weren't they? As such they would have been used to suppress nationalist and social revolutions, such as those of 1848, and maybe this is why they are not particularly liked in central Europe to this day. I know little about this role or how brutal they may have been to the local populations but maybe this could explain some of the hatred as old feeling die hard.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Not sure if you, or anyone else genuinely interested, is still following this thread, but here’s a much more relevant problem that Serbs would do well to focus more attention on right now.

    Kosovo ..

    The TSK [Turkish Kosovo Forces] is carrying out road control and independently patrolling the border with Serbia with the Kosovo police.

    With “friends” like Croats and Turks, Serbs really don’t need any enemies …

    It’s also clear that Turkey is going to pose a significant problem in the future for Serbs once Camp Bondsteel is gone …

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
  147. @Europe Europa
    @128

    Black violence and dysfunction seems to be a specifically black problem rather than a general low IQ problem, low IQ is just one part of it. Also, black Americans seem to be significantly more violent and criminal than even many lower IQ blacks in various African countries.

    In general many lower IQ countries are not particularly violent, such as places like Morocco, Tunisia, India, Jordan, etc.

    Replies: @Ian Smith, @loren, @Mr. XYZ

    I believe that Steve Sailer once said that black Africans are more afraid to murder because they fear that the dead person’s spirit will come back to haunt them, but unfortunately this doesn’t actually appear to be true for black Americans due to them growing out of their African superstitious beliefs (at least when these beliefs haven’t been converted into a belief in a mysterious and all-powerful systemic racism).

  148. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Tony

    Seethe harder Americuck.

    https://www.beltandroad.news/2020/08/06/chinas-expanding-global-footprint-roils-a-reluctant-nato/

    https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/01/01/serbia-china-s-open-door-to-balkans-pub-78054

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-10/22/c_137549115.htm

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-04/02/c_138941828.htm

    https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/serbia-buys-6-wing-loong-drones-from-china.578830/

    https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25437/Serbia_Buys_Chinese_Wing_Loong_Attack_Drones

    https://www.mpravde.gov.rs/en/vest/20594/iron-friendship-between-serbia-and-china-.php

    https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1201327.shtml

    https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/china-prc-vs-serbia-national-flag-textile-relationship-asian-european-countries-people-s-republic-170582233.jpg

    Replies: @Tony

    Hey chinacuck, pack your bags, china awaits.

  149. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Yevardian


    Care to explain this powerful take?

     

    Simple.

    Why do you think the Jewish Rabbi's hated Jesus so much and got the Romans to crucify him?

    Because he was simply a "misled" fellow Jew?

    Which banks do you think Jesus burst into and cursed the "bankers" from their ill gotten gains?

    This is also plausible because in ancient times Greeks lived all across the Middle East. For instance, Alexandria is famed for its ancient Greek library. I don't think further explanation of the obvious significant Greek presence in the Levant before the Arab and Islamic conquests of 7th-8th centuries AD is necessary.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    Ok, this is an old thread now, so I don’t know if you’ll see it, but even the most elementary reading of the Bible well establishes that Jesus was a Jew, or at the very least, not ‘Greek’. One of the key claims to his being the Messiah is that he comes from the direct line of King David, for Chrissake. All the apostles were also Hebrews, and at once memorable instance (Mark 7:27, Mathew 15:26) Jesus even says, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs” in reference to preaching to gentiles, in this case a Phoenician woman, although he heals her anyway.

    Anyway, in general, if you look at what little we know of the life Jesus himself, he addresses himself almost entirely to Jews, speaks in the context of Hebrew history, etc, etc. Jesus spoke Greek as any educated person of the region would have been able to, which isn’t the same as being Greek.
    Unless you’re one of those people who draws a hard distinction between the Ancient Hebrews and modern-day Judaism, which really starts with the Pharisees and only developed fully with the codification of the Babylonian Talmud (authoritative over the Palestinian Talmud) in the Sassanian Empire, several centuries later.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Yevardian

    I meant to state more that Jesus was "culturally Greek" at least and that his environment was predominantly Greek, not necessarily that he would never have had any Jewish ancestors/relatives.

    https://thewardenpost.net/the-orthodox-nationalist-christ-and-christianity-are-greek/

    I think this clarifies much more what I was trying to get at.


    Ok, this is an old thread now, so I don’t know if you’ll see it
     
    I don't mind.

    The subject matter of this thread is usually rare to be material for an actual post/thread not just by Karlin, but by Unz review in general. This stuff is usually for open threads anyway.

  150. @Yevardian
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Ok, this is an old thread now, so I don't know if you'll see it, but even the most elementary reading of the Bible well establishes that Jesus was a Jew, or at the very least, not 'Greek'. One of the key claims to his being the Messiah is that he comes from the direct line of King David, for Chrissake. All the apostles were also Hebrews, and at once memorable instance (Mark 7:27, Mathew 15:26) Jesus even says, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs" in reference to preaching to gentiles, in this case a Phoenician woman, although he heals her anyway.

    Anyway, in general, if you look at what little we know of the life Jesus himself, he addresses himself almost entirely to Jews, speaks in the context of Hebrew history, etc, etc. Jesus spoke Greek as any educated person of the region would have been able to, which isn't the same as being Greek.
    Unless you're one of those people who draws a hard distinction between the Ancient Hebrews and modern-day Judaism, which really starts with the Pharisees and only developed fully with the codification of the Babylonian Talmud (authoritative over the Palestinian Talmud) in the Sassanian Empire, several centuries later.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I meant to state more that Jesus was “culturally Greek” at least and that his environment was predominantly Greek, not necessarily that he would never have had any Jewish ancestors/relatives.

    https://thewardenpost.net/the-orthodox-nationalist-christ-and-christianity-are-greek/

    I think this clarifies much more what I was trying to get at.

    Ok, this is an old thread now, so I don’t know if you’ll see it

    I don’t mind.

    The subject matter of this thread is usually rare to be material for an actual post/thread not just by Karlin, but by Unz review in general. This stuff is usually for open threads anyway.

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