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Data from European Social Survey Round 8 (2016) via Alexandre Afonso (h/t Emil):

poll-immigrants-different-race

In ordered form:

poll-immigrants-different-race-ordered

Russia might not as hardcore as Czechia or Hungary, but it’s still way more skeptical of alien immigration than the European average. Israel, Poland, Italy, Estonia, and Austria round off Europe’s based leagues.

Meanwhile, all the usual suspects are also where they should be… down to Sweden Yes “surpassing” everyone else.

This is encouraging, since it shows that implicit ethnonationalism is as much of a trend as in any other random East European country. If/when competitive politics return to Russia, the result will be an Orban, a Zeman, a Netanyahu, a Salvini, not some Sorosite cuck that neoliberalism.txt hopes for.

There are a few reasons why I wanted to highlight this poll.

First, polls in which Russia can be compared to other European countries in detail are relatively rare. For instance, Russia doesn’t participate in Eurobarometer.

poll-east-europe-diversitySecond, commenter Polish Perspective has been latching on to one particular PEW poll [1, 2, 3] in which Russians say they “are better off living in a diverse society” (as opposed to Czechia, Poland, Hungary, who prefer a “homogeneous society”) to argue that Russians are “more cucked on immigration/diversity” than Visegrad.

But this poll confirms melanf’s counterargument: “For Russia this is a completely false interpretation of the survey about “diversity”. In Russia a strong anti immigrant mood, but absolutely normal relations with indigenous peoples, Finno-Ugric, Turkic, etc. origin. As an analogy – imagine that the feelings of the people of Berne to the people of Geneva will be interpreted as love Swiss to African migrants.

And as I have argued in numerous posts, these “based” sentiments in Russia are almost certainly stronger amongst youth than amongst the elderly (nationalist share of the vote rises, communist share of the vote falls with decreasing age). This would also reflect Polish Perspective’s observation on trends in Poland.

So I suppose this is a whitepill of sorts.

 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Immigration, Opinion Poll, Russia 
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  1. @Anatoly Karlin
    And as I have argued in numerous posts, these “based” sentiments in Russia are almost certainly stronger amongst youth than amongst the elderly (nationalist share of the vote rises, communist share of the vote falls with decreasing age). This would also reflect Polish Perspective’s observation on trends in Poland.

    There is a similar trend in France too, where younger voters are more likely to support “nationalist” politics than older voters. This is even though the younger cohorts of France are less ethnically French. I wonder how the politics of ethnic French and non ethnic French youth in France differ?

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/05/le-pen-national-front-macron-france-election/525759/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/nearly-half-young-french-voters-marine-le-pen-emmanuel-macron-french-election-2017-a7723291.html

    https://www.ft.com/content/5119f9ac-08cb-11e7-97d1-5e720a26771b

    http://www.businessinsider.com/front-national-is-no-longer-taboo-for-french-youth-2017-3?r=UK&IR=T&IR=T

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/france-far-right-youth-voters_us_58f4dea7e4b0bb9638e5394e?guccounter=1

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Marcus
  2. If/when competitive politics return to Russia, the result will be an Orban, a Zeman, a Netanyahu, a Salvini, not some Sorosite cuck that neoliberalism.txt hopes for.

    As a Russian, I’m not so sure. Russia’s key distinction is its size, meaning it would take a lot of money to run a national campaign and access to television will be crucial.

    Just like in the US, politicians with the best ability to fundraise will dominate competitive politics. These politicians will serve the needs of Jewish oligarchs, and at the same time Jew-controlled television will work to supress any populist voices, just like they do in the US, just like did in Russia during 1990s.

    Personally, I think Russia can exist as an Autocracy or a (Jewish) Oligarchy, but Orban style populism isn’t viable here, due to the country’s diversity and size.

  3. DFH says:

    Why is Denmark so pozzed when their politics and migrant policies seem to be fairly based?

  4. Bsh says: • Website

    Will political violence against liberal personalities and their supporters be useful in stopping liberalism?

  5. @DFH

    Yes, this is odd. Even the Social Democrats in Denmark are now onboard with immigration restriction. Worth noting that Danes are renowned for their guile, trickery, and deceit.

    Sweden doesn’t have based migration politics…yet.

    Sweden Yes! aside, the Swedish result is odd in light of the fact that the Sweden Democrats are now the most popular party in the country are for the first time out-polling the Social Democrats…and I don’t think any party has out-polled the Social Democrats in the past century (the three center-right governments which have held power since the SocDem monopoly began in the ’30s have all been coalitions).

    This might be a case of Scandinavians faithfully repeating the sacraments of bioleninism, but then adopting “common sense” to politics. Of course we love diversity! But we simply can’t have returning ISIS fighters importing child brides from Pakistan!

    On the flip side Russians are based but they keep approving of and voting for the mass-immigrationist Putin regime.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @Mishra
  6. LH says:
    @DFH

    Denmark was not included in this survey. The DE means Germany.

    http://www.europeansocialsurvey.org/about/news/essnews0038.html

    • Replies: @Mishra
  7. @Thorfinnsson

    Also worth noting the poll was conducted in 2016, but detailed results published a week ago.

    Putin’s regime isn’t exactly mass immigrationist, at least by the standards set in the West, though obviously much less based than Orban, etc. There are reasonable grounds to hope that most of the Central Asian guest workers will go home permanently once conditions in their countries will improve. It is also worth nothing that the first liberal to entertain some degree of ethnonationalist rhetoric, Navalny, was also the first liberal to go from their usual margin of error support levels to something noticeable (27% in the 2013 Moscow mayoral elections). Then ofc he upended all his political capital by supporting the Ukraine in 2014.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @Anonymous
  8. The German result in that poll is of course extremely depressing, but I do have to wonder how accurate it is. There was a poll in 2016 in which 53% of surveyed Germans were in favour of stopping ALL Islamic immigration:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/most-europeans-want-muslim-ban-immigration-control-middle-east-countries-syria-iran-iraq-poll-a7567301.html

    There has also been a poll in Germany about the question “Does Islam belong to Germany?”, with a majority of somewhat over 60% saying “No, it doesn’t” (although unfortunately the youngest age cohorts are tending more towards “Yes”):

    https://www.cicero.de/innenpolitik/gehoert-der-islam-zu-deutschland-umfrage-insa

    Still, the differences to Eastern Europe and Italy are certainly real, for whatever reason there’s a very large and influential segment of society that holds strongly multiculturalist views.

    • Replies: @whahae
    , @utu
    , @RadicalCenter
  9. Gerard2 says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Navalny, was also the first liberal to go from their usual margin of error support levels to something noticeable (27% in the 2013 Moscow mayoral elections)

    “something noticeable”…..like his 2% in Kostroma election in 2015.

    Liberast idiot voters in Moscow are in the 10-12% region, consistently throughout the Putin leadership ( I don’t use false insulting terms like “regime”). There was a 34% turnout for the Moscow Mayor election and it must be assumed that , literally, 100% turnout for Navalny hamsters in this election. If we assume a normal election would get 60% turnout, and a 100% turnout of Navalny supporters as here…….then the Navalny result is about 15%, for a city that has immeasurably improved in the 5 years afterwards.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Felix Keverich
  10. whahae says:
    @German_reader

    I know German boomer conservatives who would support all banning all Islamic immigration but are mostly fine with “based” black African Christians. This might explain the seemingly contradictory poll results

  11. Beckow says:
    @Gerard2

    Anyone running ‘against the system‘, anywhere in the world with reasonably open elections will get 20-25%. You can check elections that run ‘outsiders’ of different types, they always score in 20% range, sometimes cumulatively. That’s the built-in rebel or malcontent support.

    The issue in many Western elections is that most outsiders are managed out of the system. There is always some method that prevents them from running: internal party controls, qualifications to run, money and media, and last-minute demonisation. Access to ballot is always regulated (it has to be), and obviously the system group tries to make sure those who are listed are manageable and managed.

    Navalny helped himself with his nationalist rhetoric, but protest candidates have a built-in support and 27% is only slightly better than one would expect when you add up the hard-core, the malcontents, and the unhappy.

  12. utu says:
    @German_reader

    Still, the differences to Eastern Europe and Italy are certainly real, for whatever reason

    Public opinion reflected by various polls is not a function of actual reality on the ground. Different realities may lead the same outcome in public opinion and similar realities may lead to different outcomes. The ‘whatever reason’ can be very easily manufactured.

    • Troll: manorchurch
  13. @Gerard2

    Liberast idiot voters in Moscow are in the 10-12% region, consistently throughout the Putin leadership ( I don’t use false insulting terms like “regime”)

    It’s a highly personalistic system of government, to the point that insiders within the Putin regime claim, that there can be no Russia without Putin, hence the “regime”.

    • Replies: @DreadIlk
    , @AnonFromTN
    , @Gerard2
  14. Well, Russia is not unique in this: Hungary and Czech Republic are even ahead of Russia in rejecting immigration, while Poland, Israel, Italy, and quite a few others are not far behind.
    Unlike suicidal Sweden and Germany, Russians don’t want to feed parasites. That might be the legacy of Soviet Union failed “internationalist” policies. Russians are OK with migrants who work and earn their keep, but not with the parasites seeking payments for nothing, like the scum flocking to Germany or Sweden. Overall, this is a good sign: Russians won’t let their country be destroyed by migrants from various “whateverthefuckistans”.

  15. DreadIlk says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Not true. If you look around that is about how any collection of humans works. This is why average IQ is better predictor of success than anything else.

  16. melanf says:

    It should be noted that the largest group of immigrants in Russia are Ukrainians. For this it would be better to clarify (in the survey) what kind of immigration is in question.

    Foreign citizens residing in the territory of the Russian Federation, 2014-2017. Blue – Ukraine, Red – Uzbekistan, Green – Tajikistan

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    , @DNC
  17. @DreadIlk

    Where are you from, DreadIlk? As a Western man you may be having difficulty picturing what traditional autocracies are like, since you never lived in one.

    I assure you that Russia not like USA. There is certainly no “Trump regime” in America. I would go so far as to say that the American system is anti-Trump.

    • Replies: @DreadIlk
  18. @melanf

    It should be noted that the largest group of immigrants in Russia are Ukrainians. For this it would be better to clarify (in the survey) what kind of immigration is in question.

    The survey does that. It asks about immigrants “of different race/ethnic group from the majority”. Ukrainian people is really a variation of Russians.

    • Agree: melanf, RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @RadicalCenter
  19. DNC says:
    @melanf

    What is happening to the Germans? There were almost 394k self-identifying as such in 2010 census and there seems to be a good bit over 300k in early 2014 in that graph. The rate of decline doubled?

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  20. @Felix Keverich

    There can and will be Russia without Putin. Contrary to the claims of current propaganda in the US and EU, the West will rue the day when Putin is gone: he is the most pro-Western leader Russia would tolerate under current circumstances.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  21. Mr. Hack says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Ukrainian people is really a variation of Russians.

    Well no, not really. A Ukrainian would have exhibited greater writing skills and have written:

    The Ukrainian people are not really a variation of the Russian nation. :-)

    You guys (some Russians – nationalists?) must really have a low self esteem, if you continuously need to incorporate the Ukrainians into your own national mythology! :-)

    Can’t you stand on your own two feet and go forward?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @A.A.
  22. @AnonFromTN

    It’s possible, but not a foregone conclusion. After Putin is gone, the country could conceivably revert to an oligarchic system of government it had in the 1990s. The West will certainly like that.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  23. @Mr. Hack

    Hate to disappoint, but the prevalent feeling in Russia is that they don’t want Ukrainian “brothers” (basically, because with brothers like that, who needs enemies). Even though in reality Ukrainians and Belorussians are in many ways Russians, prevailing current attitude in Russia is that the people consider Ukrainians as something different, something that they despise.

    The opposing view comes mostly from Ukrainians. Rostislav Ischenko, who worked for the Ukrainian government and ran away to Russia after the coup in 2014, said that anyone who is good for anything and has a chance to compete considers himself Russian and competes in Russia. The ones good for nothing count themselves as Ukrainians and are proud to be the biggest frog in a pathetically small puddle. He should know, he was there 1991-2014.

    • Replies: @AP
  24. @Felix Keverich

    Highly unlikely. Too many people still remember the horrors of the “liberal” 1990s.

  25. @DreadIlk

    Can you clarify what do you mean?

  26. A.A. says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Well no, not really.

    Sure, but the discussion here is about Ukrainian immigrants to Russia. Ukrainians are not Russians, but they are very easy to assimilate into Russians. That’s what makes them such convenient migrants for Russia, the fact that that they (or their children) will quickly become ethnic Russians.

  27. @A.A.

    Probably a quarter to a third of Russians have close relatives in Ukraine. My wife’s parents do. I don’t live in Russia, but did until 1991. I was born in Ukraine (in Lvov, of all places) and have an aunt and a cousin living in Ukraine (my other cousin and the children of both of these cousins ran away from Ukraine, some to Russia, some to the Netherlands). Some of those Ukrainian relatives went mad, thereby reinforcing the impression of Russians that a Ukrainian is something contemptible and generally retarded (which would explain downward trajectory of that unfortunate entity from 1991 to this day).
    However, after a move to Russia most Ukrainians become quite human and easily assimilate. BTW, there are schools teaching in lots of languages in Russia, even Armenian and Georgian, but there isn’t a single Ukrainian school: minority-language schools are created on the request of parents, and most Ukrainians living in Russia prefer to pretend that they have nothing in common with Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AP
  28. I have some Vietnamese acquaintances who lived in Russia, as well as South Korean and Chinese aquaintances who studied there or traveled extensively.

    Their opinion:

    1: Russians are pretty hospitable in general. Just dont be a dick.

    2: East Asians are seen as outsiders, but have a bit of a model minority status.

    3: The South Korean eventually walked around with a South Korean flag pin, improved many things. He was occassionally mistaken for a Central Asian or Buryat, being seen as South Korean was an improvement.

    4: Other acquaintances were quite harmless looking girls. This probably improved their reception.

    5: Generally speaking, East Asians have a migrant hierarchy themselfs, and arent particularly shocked to encounter one.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Daniel Chieh
  29. @AnonFromTN

    I should have mentioned that this was so even before 2014 coup. The “progress” of Ukraine is best described by the promises of its contemptible “leaders”. The first president, Kravchuk, said in mid-1990s that in five years Ukrainians will live, like in France. The second president, Kuchma, said in early 2000s that in ten years Ukrainians will live, like in Poland. A few years ago Saakashvili (Odessa governor back then, failed Georgian president before that) said that if Ukraine develops successfully, in 20 years Ukrainians will live like under Yanukovych (the last legitimate president, deposed by 2014 coup). Some progress, wouldn’t you say?

    • Replies: @AP
  30. Dmitry says:

    Post-Putin government, will be in a similar political territory as the Putin government just with some with some different idiosyncrasies.

    And Putin’s agenda itself is not so idiosyncrasies – he is experimenting a lot of the time to try to follow, as much as shape, the national mood.

    As for immigration. I think it is simply that from a distance everyone can see how suicidal the situation became in countries like Netherlands or Sweden – so countries in East Europe, or poorer countries in total, had an advantage of some years of being able to watch the countries in Western Europe stupidly flooded with incompatible economic immigrants, and Western Europe has in this topic helped to show the rest of the world everything to avoid in life.

    For the government, this situation also was used (not for any special ideological reason) as part of the propaganda against the decaying West – so that the government itself unintentionally helped to reinforce the idea that the Western example is bad in this area, and correctly in this area (although uncorrectly in others).

  31. Anonymous[146] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    There are reasonable grounds to hope that most of the Central Asian guest workers will go home permanently once conditions in their countries will improve.

    TJ and KG will remain poor.

  32. @Mightypeon

    Naturally, a Korean would be considered way above Central Asians, who mostly hold jobs that do not require any qualification in Russia (like street sweepers). Quite a few Russian guys like Asian girls. Quite a few Russian women like Chinese husbands. There is a lot of inter-marriage in Russia, and a lot less racism than in the US or Europe. That’s probably because of centuries of co-existence with Asians and people of different religions in the Russian Empire.
    BTW, how many people in the West know that Russian defense minister Shoigu is from Tuva? His father is Tuvan (FYI, Tuvans are Buddhists) and his mother is Russian.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Dmitry
    , @Hyperborean
  33. DFH says:
    @AnonFromTN

    There is a lot of inter-marriage in Russia, and a lot less racism than in the US or Europe. That’s probably because of centuries of co-existence with Asians and people of different religions in the Russian Empire.

    Based Civic Imperialism!

    • LOL: Thorfinnsson
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  34. Dmitry says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    And as I have argued in numerous posts, these “based” sentiments in Russia are almost certainly stronger amongst youth than amongst the elderly (nationalist share of the vote rises, communist share of the vote falls with decreasing age). This would also reflect Polish Perspective’s observation on trends in Poland.

    I think old people seem more personally “racist” than young people.

    Question in the surveys is about immigration policy, which is a different topic. There would be various correlations, but you will find there exist racist people in underlying views, who support internationalism (even the kind of idiots who established “People’s Friendship University”). At the same time, many people who are not in racist, but would prefer not to have flooded with e.g. random African immigrants.

    You might visit Turkey every summer for holidays and be a fan of Turkey, but it does not imply you want your home city to be flooded with Turkish cattle and all their criminal elements (as actually happened in Germany).

    This is surely a rising fast demographic in educated Western populations (including many scientists, engineers, managers, etc) at the moment – people who oppose mass immigration, not through uneducated prejudices towards the world, but from a simple rational understanding of the unpleasant consequences of these policies.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  35. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    BTW, there are schools teaching in lots of languages in Russia, even Armenian and Georgian, but there isn’t a single Ukrainian school: minority-language schools are created on the request of parents

    Ukrainian community in Moscow were complaining that the government refused to allow a Ukrainian school in the city.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  36. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    A few years ago Saakashvili (Odessa governor back then, failed Georgian president before that) said that if Ukraine develops successfully, in 20 years Ukrainians will live like under Yanukovych

    Western and Central Ukraine are ahead of where they were in 2013, under Yanukovich. The country as a whole should pull even by the end of the year.

    You are just gloating at the expense of the more pro-Russian eastern Ukrainians.

    More info:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/ukrotriumph/

  37. @DFH

    Then so-called multiculturalism is Civic Imperialism, too. One of the key differences between Europe and Russia is that Russia is doing, whereas Europe is mostly preaching (largely on the principle “do what the priest says, not what the priest does”).

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  38. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Even though in reality Ukrainians and Belorussians are in many ways Russians, prevailing current attitude in Russia is that the people consider Ukrainians as something different, something that they despise.

    I was in Russia in April, spoke a lot of Ukrainian to my kid on the streets, never experienced any rudeness. Russians are not you.

    • Agree: Marcus
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Gerard2
  39. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    BTW, how many people in the West know that Russian defense minister Shoigu is from Tuva? His father is Tuvan (FYI, Tuvans are Buddhists) and his mother is Russian.

    Shoygu – just a bureaucrat/functionary that kissed the right asses, now owns mansions. Not the samurai warrior he appears from the face.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  40. @AP

    Ukrainian stats? Sure, sure… If Ukraine is so successful, why about a 100,000 people leave Ukraine every month, so that even some members of the Rada got worried that there would be nobody to pay taxes 10 years from now? Why there were 54 births for 100 deaths in 2018?

    • Replies: @AP
  41. @AP

    Unlike some people, Russians (with the exception of a few retards) never make these things personal. In fact, that’s what they have in common with Americans.

  42. Mitleser says:
    @Dmitry

    Not a samurai warrior, but a Samurai Lord.
    With fitting mansions.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  43. @Mitleser

    Well, I found reports about that in The Telegraph, Daily Mail, and on the website of Radio Free Europe/ Radio Liberty. All referencing Navalny as the source of info. Considering that Navalny is a well-known liar and thief (Gucci handbags of his wife clearly show how “clean” he is), Radio Free Europe/ Radio Liberty is directly funded by the US government well-known for spreading numerous improbable lies that were later debunked, and British newspapers, including The Telegraph and Daily Mail, also have a stable reputation for lying (Skripal affair is the latest example), could you please indicate a reliable source? I am not saying that it cannot be true, I just want to get it from a source not known for habitual lying.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @Dmitry
  44. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    If Ukraine is so successful, why about a 100,000 people leave Ukraine every month, so that even some members of the Rada got worried that there would be nobody to pay taxes 10 years from now

    Because Ukrainians make as much money in Poland as Poles do (that is, several times what they make at home):

    https://www.unian.info/society/10142516-ukrainians-in-poland-receive-almost-same-wages-as-poles-study.html

    a lot of Ukrainians go to Poland for 6 months and come back. This has basically wiped out Ukraine’s real unemployment rate.

    If Ukrainians had the opportunity to work in the West as easily under Yanukovich as they do now there would be no difference in such behavior.

    Why there were 54 births for 100 deaths in 2018?

    Check the geographic distribution. It is largely Sovoks dying out. Lowest birth rates and highest death rates are in the East. Highest birth rates and lowest death rates are in the West and in Kiev.

    Economically and demographically, your gloating comes at the expense of the pro-Russian part of the population.

    :::::::::::

    BTW, 3.1% GDP growth in first quarter 2018.

    • Replies: @AP
  45. Mitleser says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Meh, it would not bother me if it was true.
    Someone who has spent the last decades in various cabinets of a major country should be able to afford a bunch of nice villas.
    His Singaporean counterpart earned S$1.76 million per year.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  46. @Mitleser

    I am not saying it cannot be true, but are there no other sources of this info except proved liars?

    BTW, I once saw a military parade in Singapore, likely involving most of its armed forces. The spectacle was rather pathetic. If someone with an army (Malaysia, which allowed it to break free?) wanted to attack Singapore, they would have little problem conquering it. On the other hand, if no one plans to attack, why does Singapore waste resources on something as useless as its army? I don’t know the answer to this question. I am sure Singaporean government can’t supply it, either.

    BTW, I am not trying to belittle Singapore. Its government seems very sensible: they have four official languages, every sign everywhere is in these four languages, so that nobody feels alienated. I think some countries (naming no names) would be wise to learn from them, rather than pushing primeval tribal nationalism and a single official language. Fools never learn, though.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @Daniel Chieh
  47. AP says:
    @AP

    Check the geographic distribution. It is largely Sovoks dying out. Lowest birth rates and highest death rates are in the East. Highest birth rates and lowest death rates are in the West and in Kiev.

    Details here:

    https://ukrstat.org/en/operativ/operativ2018/ds/pp/pp_e/pp0318_e.html

    For every 100 deaths in Luhansk oblast, there are only 36 births.
    For every 100 deaths in Donetsk oblast, there are only 37 births.
    For every 100 deaths in Kharkiv oblast, there are only 47 births.

    For every 100 deaths in Lviv oblast there are 66 births.
    For every 100 deaths in Rivne oblast there are 86 births.
    For every 100 deaths in Kiev City there are 103 births.

    Compared to other countries:

    For every 100 deaths in Lithuania in 2017 there were 68 births.
    For every 100 deaths in Hungary in 2017 there were 70 births.*
    For every 100 deaths in Belarus in 2017 there were 78 births.
    For every 100 deaths in Russia in 2017 there were 93 births.

    *probably lower for ethnic Hungarians than for gypsies

    • Replies: @neutral
  48. Israel, Poland, Italy, Estonia, and Austria round off Europe’s based leagues.

    Israel’s not European.

  49. Mitleser says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Malaysia, which allowed it to break free?

    They were expelled for not accepting Malaysia’s “primeval tribal nationalism”.

  50. Mr. XYZ says:

    @AP: Russia, Rivne, and Kiev really do perform relatively well in regards to this.

    Also, as a side note, I’m unsure that you should celebrate the demographic decline of eastern Ukraine too much. After all, the less people that eastern Ukraine will have, the easier that it will be for Russia to occupy it if Russia will decide to do so.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @AnonFromTN
    , @AP
  51. neutral says:
    @AP

    Do you honestly think any of this matters? You are probably aware of the “most important graph in the world”, Ukraine is already at deaths door, it has become another puppet to the international jew and thus will be accepting mass third world immigration eventually. I recommend you look at fertility rates of places like Nigeria and Afghanistan to see what the future of Ukraine holds, dumb cucks are not the future of any nation.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  52. Mr. XYZ says:

    : Does this mean that Russia doesn’t want a lot of Chinese immigrants either?

    Indeed, I was thinking about the idea of having Russia gradually accept 10 or 20 million Chinese immigrants in order to increase its population a bit (accepting more than that would probably be too much for Russia to swallow). Also, these immigrants could replace the Jews (whose numbers are rapidly declining and have been declining since the 1960s) as Russia’s cognitive elite.

  53. Mr. XYZ says:

    @neutral: Poland has a declining population and yet refuses to take in a lot of Third World immigrants. Why exactly would Ukraine be any different?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Mitleser
  54. @Mr. XYZ

    Poland retained some sovereignty, whereas Ukraine has none.

    • Replies: @AP
  55. Mitleser says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    AP is not a Ukrainian cheerleader, he is West-Ukrainian cheerleader.
    Reducing the influence of the East is what he wants.

  56. Mitleser says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Poland’s population is stagnating, not declining.
    At least officially.

  57. @Mightypeon

    The South Korean eventually walked around with a South Korean flag pin, improved many things

    Awesome.

  58. @Mr. XYZ

    To retain popular support (which Putin appears to like nowadays) Russian government can accept Donbass (Donetsk and Lugansk regions, that did not accept Nazi coup in Kiev in 2014), but nothing else in the rest of Ukraine. To the best of my knowledge, even in Donbass, where Ukrainian Nazis are universally hated, the opinion is split: about half wants to join Russia, whereas the other half wants to remain independent.

    It is curious to see how Ukrainian population basically falls into two categories: some expect the West to solve their problems, whereas others believe that Russia should solve them. The fact that those who believe that Ukrainians themselves should solve the problems of Ukraine is so small explains the pathetic failure of that would-be country.

  59. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    It’s the youngest daughter they focused on.

    His kids are 1/4 Tuvan and 3/4 Russian… so I guess it is truly the Russian-samurai race.

    When she was 22 years old, in 2013, she created the “race of heroes” project. And now she is boss of “race of heroes” as her main job.

    But for a girl to start in 2013 at age 22, (and now she still runs) a nationwide project of this scale as the “race of heroes” – she must be “lucky”.

    Anyway she gives talks on how to become an entrepreneur.

  60. @AnonFromTN

    Its mostly to stop paramilitary NGOs according to my friend in Singapore. So it is supposed to be capable of stopping,say, ISIS but nothing more than that.

  61. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Also, as a side note, I’m unsure that you should celebrate the demographic decline of eastern Ukraine too much.

    I don’t think it’s something to celebrate. It would be great if Sovoks stopped being Sovoks and became Ukrainians, or (in the case of Donbas especially) Russians. But choosing to disappear by not reproducing is a lesser evil than imposing themselves upon non-Sovoks.

    the less people that eastern Ukraine will have, the easier that it will be for Russia to occupy it if Russia will decide to do so

    1. Russia’s population, though stable, is still declining and not expanding.
    2. The fewer of them, the less chances they have in elections.
    3. Sovoks might be inclined to become 5th columnists. Better a small aging population.

  62. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Poland retained some sovereignty, whereas Ukraine has none.

    …Which is why Ukraine’s government has blocked corruption-reform efforts demanded by the West.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @AnonFromTN
  63. @Daniel Chieh,

    according to the South Korean, South Koreans actually have the best standing in Russia (compared to other east asians) because of:

    A) Not much of a history of hostility or a feeling of being threatened (China)/inferior in living standard (Japan)
    B) Koreans were already a bit of a model minority in Czarist times
    C) South Korea is now somewhat hip
    D) Visa free travel in both directions. One could argue that South Korea is the most modern country for which Russians do not need a visa.
    E) No “little brother” thing like with the Vietnamese.
    F) Korea is like, one of the very few/the only countries which border Russia and which never invaded it.

    But in general, Russians are easy to get along with. Be respectful, flatter them a bit and dont do stupid shit. Same procedure works nearly everywhere.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @Dmitry
    , @Philip Owen
  64. Mitleser says:
    @Mightypeon

  65. Dmitry says:
    @Mightypeon

    Also Korean is an indigenous, if rare to find, nationality in some places of Russia.

    But really, Japanese have a higher cultural status (image of the country in people’s minds), as Japanese have in almost every country in the world.

    -

    On the other hand, Russia’s image in Japan – it’s an area for economic improvement. Japanese tourists are flooding London and Paris in large numbers, seen on every street with shopping bags.

    Whereas in Moscow and Saint-Petersburg the numbers of Japanese arriving are multiple times lower, despite being cheaper for them, and now with visa-free entry.

    Currently, there are not even direct flights between Saint-Petersburg and Tokyo

    -

    Eccentric ideas this week to get more Japanese visiting the far-east.

    http://www.zrpress.ru/business/primorje_19.06.2018_89691_v-trende-katastrofy-rasstrely-i-voennye-bitvy.html

    • Replies: @utu
  66. utu says:
    @Dmitry

    On the other hand, Russia’s image in Japan – it’s an area for economic improvement.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/15/world/nemuro-journal-the-russians-have-come-and-they-re-welcome.html
    ”The reason those other towns are barring Russians from baths and snack bars is because Japanese don’t like being around Russians,” Mr. Suzuki said. ”When we began targeting the Russians, we feared that our customers would feel the same way. But we found that the people of Nemuro don’t harbor any revulsion for Russians. We want to have good relations with them. Who knows, one day it may even help us recover our lands.”

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2001/02/21/national/otaru-racism-controversy-lingers-on/#.WyxBNmaZOu4

    https://apjjf.org/-Arudou-Debito/1743/article.html
    In September 1999, we came on the scene. Several multinational families (German, American, and Chinese, all with Japanese spouses) and I dropped by as customers at the original exclusionary Otaru onsens. The managers only refused entry to the Caucasians in our contingent. Reason given? “Russian sailors disobey our bathing rules. They drive away our Japanese customers.”

    “But we are not Russian sailors,” we replied. “Also, we have lived here for more than a decade each. We have Japanese families. We know how to take a bath.”

    “Doesn’t matter,” they retorted. “Refusing only Russians would be blatant discrimination. So we refuse all foreigners equally.”

    “Including our Chinese friend you just unwittingly let in?” we asked. Quick to admit their “mistake”, they tossed her out too.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  67. BlackFlag says:

    Americans didn’t want them either but they still got them.
    What could make a difference? The internet maybe. I’ll believe it when I see profitable anti-invasion watchdog groups being formed.

  68. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    [MORE]

    …Which is why Ukraine’s government has blocked corruption-reform efforts demanded by the West

    LOL you dumb prick…”the west” has no interest in whether Ukraine is corrupt or not…..it’s existence now is solely as a Anti-Russia, prostitute, parasite state.

    The west long ago accepted, despite all their blather, that before and especially since Maidan, Russia has become a far far more sucessful country than Ukraine in fighting corruption and pretty much everything else….. hence why there is almost no talk before of how Russia was always considerably less corrupt ( despite the ethnic , extreme cold, daylight issues), and has become significantly less corrupt and better run than Ukraine after 2014. Any focus on corruption, democracy an so on would only invite a comparison with Russia’s performance.

    This is a country controlled by Lithuanians, Gruzians, Chechens, Poles, Canadian nutjob Banderatards and ….of course….Americans. A prostitute state in every sense of the term. Gas policy, infrastructure policy, budget policy, Cabinet, PM, Foreign policy are all decisions made from outside of Ukraine you idiot.

    Rather amusingly it has become more oligarchised after the fake “revolution of dignity”

    This is a beggar country with no sovereignty to speak of

    I would have thought, even for a shameless retarded excrement as you, that after the Ukraine life expectancy at 71 ( while Russia’s goes to 72.5) you would cease with these attention-whore, idiotic, lies…..but alas….useless freak

  69. Gerard2 says:
    @Felix Keverich

    It’s a highly personalistic system of government, to the point that insiders within the Putin regime claim, that there can be no Russia without Putin, hence the “regime”.

    WTF does this “personalistic style of government ” BS mean? Sounds like the drivel Bershidsky comes out with

    Most of the laws that western ignorant dipshits have ( response to Magnitsky, fag propaganda and so on) have almost had almost no relation to Putin in their formulisation or implementation….except that he has the consitutional authority to reject or accept them

    Why have so many critics of Putin come up in high positions like Rogozin, Glazyev, Milov, Pamfilova ….do you actually think Putin is desperate for Chubais to control Rosnano ( and f**k it up?). Why did he even have Kasyanov as PM?

    insiders within the Putin regime claim, that there can be no Russia without Putin

    Because he is so good at his job…and any idiot knows that the threat of the west against Russian culture, Russian economy, Russian politics…is very much real.

  70. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    [MORE]

    I was in Russia in April, spoke a lot of Ukrainian to my kid on the streets, never experienced any rudeness. Russians are not you.

    As has been proven numerous times…..you are a fantasist, POS liar with extreme mental problems…..and who certainly can’t speak Ukrainian. So this scenario is one a tramp as yourself has invented for some perverted reason.

    But not to worry…….when your period-related problems start to surface again…….there’s always this Russian video to spell out a few more home truths to a freak like you…..

    or maybe those Yushchenko ones thrown in as well

    • Replies: @AP
  71. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    [MORE]

    Ukrainian community in Moscow were complaining that the government refused to allow a Ukrainian school in the city.

    Apart from being a fake story ( why would they only be interested in setting it up now you idiot?) it wouldn’t be a culturally “Ukrainian” community doing this…..just a bunch of bored liberast cretins.

    …and Yes Anon is right in that whereas there is very much a Armenian and Georgian culture that has manifested itself in those living in Russia with regards to events and schools ….there is none of this for “Ukrainians” in the far east, north or big cities because they view themselves as Russian, or Russians/Ukrainians as same people….which is obviously true

    • Replies: @AP
  72. Dmitry says:
    @utu

    Sure, but everyone’s sailors, probably can make a bad impression – I doubt American sailors are more popular.

    Also this article is extremely old and is from the New York Times.

    Japanese culture is very popular in Russia, but with a specific people, i.e. polite geeks who want to transform into characters from Nintendo games.

    A lot of tourists going to visit or live in Japan nowadays are these people. Japan welcomes eccentrics and will probably think they are cool, and so they’ll contribute to improving relationships when they visit Japan.

    -

    Japanese-Russia relations reached a new level this year, after skaters were being welcomed as honorary almost Japanese

    Zagitova at least looks Japanese.

    And Medvedeva can dance like them.

    • Agree: utu
  73. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    you … certainly can’t speak Ukrainian

    The fact that you keep posting a Ukrainian-language video and insist it is in Russian suggests that you can speak neither Ukrainian nor Russian. Ukrainian or Russian speakers feel free to confirm.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  74. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Japanese culture is very popular in Russia, but with a specific people, i.e. polite geeks who want to transform into characters from Nintendo games.

    A lot of tourists going to visit or live in Japan nowadays are these people. [b]Japan welcomes eccentrics and will probably think they are cool,[/b] and so they’ll contribute to improving relationships when they visit Japan.

    Ok some of those might frighten even the Japanese..

  75. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    it wouldn’t be a culturally “Ukrainian” community doing this

    I went to the cultural center on Arbat during a meeting and they were complaining about it. This was about 15 years ago. It still wasn’t done.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  76. @AP

    For a fan of late unlamented Ukraine you are remarkably ill-informed.
    Ukrainian Rada adopted a bill on establishing High Anti-Corruption Court
    Read more on UNIAN: https://www.unian.info/politics/10161143-ukraine-s-rada-adopts-bill-on-establishing-high-anti-corruption-court.html

    • Replies: @AP
  77. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    Japanese culture is very popular in Russia, but with a specific people, i.e. polite geeks who want to transform into characters from Nintendo games.

    Japanese culture is popular in Russia also among normal people, only other areas of culture. Here is a Park in St. Petersburg:

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Dmitry
  78. @melanf

    Japanese culture was popular among normal people even in the USSR. I read Akutagawa ans Natsume Soseki way back then, in excellent Russian translation.

  79. @AnonFromTN

    There is a lot of inter-marriage in Russia, and a lot less racism than in the US or Europe.

    It seems difficult to compare, given the difference in ethnicity.

    I don’t think people in USA or West Europe mind East Asians that much. Vietnamese people in France seem integrated and I think ethnic French have a positive view of them. Similarly longer-established East Asians in the USA have a not so low intermarriage rates with Anglo-Americans.

    Probably comparing East Asians with say, Middle Eastern Muslims or Africans or Amerindians would produce the wrong impression regarding inter-marriage or racism.

    • Replies: @melanf
  80. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I’m well aware of that. And it is full of loopholes. West isn’t pleased but can’t do anything about it:

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/01/18/now-world-bank-slams-poroshenkos-anticorruption-court-bill-800-mn-in-the-air/

    Ukraine will happily take IMF money but it is no longer dependent on it, as in 2014. It paid back more than it took in last year:

    https://www.uawire.org/over-the-year-ukraine-paid-more-to-imf-than-it-received-from-it

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Marcus
  81. melanf says:
    @Hyperborean

    n Russia, the same situation with the Koreans. They are perfectly integrated, and (in the eyes of the population) make up a very different category than the inhabitants of Central Asia. Usually (in Russia) in a group of students in 20-30 people one student has an East Asian appearance, and this student with 95% probability is Korean. Or here are the winners of the competition (among schoolchildren) for knowledge of Russian literature on Sakhalin.

    Confucians strong

    • Replies: @Mightypeon
    , @Zhukov1945
  82. Mishra says:
    @LH

    Well that’s what we call good information.

  83. Mishra says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Sweden must be the most disgraceful (formerly-) white nation on earth. And, sadly, there’s stiff competition for the title. I’ll remember this the next time something awful happens there: they want it.

  84. @melanf

    That is in Kazan though ;:)

    • Replies: @melanf
  85. @Mr. XYZ

    What a strange idea.

    1. Urban Chinese salaries are now comparable to or higher than Russian ones. Few Chinese have ever emigrated to Russia (Russian nationalist and Western neocon autistic screeching about them taking over Siberia regardless), and today there is no longer even any economic incentive for them to do it. I suspect there are more Russian expats in China than the inverse.

    2. “Also, these immigrants could replace the Jews (whose numbers are rapidly declining and have been declining since the 1960s) as Russia’s cognitive elite.” And this is a bad thing, why? Why on Earth should anyone want to have foreign ethnicities constitute their cognitive elite?

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/limits-to-cognitive-elitism/

    Especially when the world is probably near the technological verge of allowing countries to create their own cognitive elites at will (via genetic IQ augmentation).

    In any case, the Chinese are not going to fulfill that function anyway. East Asians are too conformist to constitute a cognitive elite.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Dmitry
    , @Mr. XYZ
  86. @Mishra

    Now former Swedish ‘conservative’ PM in 2006:
    ‘The ur-Swedish is merely barbarism. The rest of our development has come from abroad.’

    https://www.dn.se/nyheter/politik/reinfeldt-det-ursvenska-ar-blott-barbari/

    Even though he didn’t intend it, I found the double entendre interesting.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  87. Mitleser says:
    @Dmitry

    Japanese-Russia relations reached a new level this year

    Well, 2018 is supposed to be the Year of Russia in Japan.

    https://static.vl.ru/news/1527897234063_default

    https://www.newsvl.ru/vlad/2018/06/02/170793/

  88. Marcus says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    It was a Communist Party official who recently made news for saying that local women shouldn’t fraternize with foreigners during the World Cup.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  89. Marcus says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Chinese factory workers at the much-derided “sweat shops” for companies like Apple do pretty well, certainly better than the Russian average

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  90. @Marcus

    Does Russia have live-in positions for factory workers?

    • Replies: @Marcus
  91. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    Japanese culture is popular in Russia also among normal people, only other areas of culture. Here is a Park in St. Petersburg:

    Sure any normal people can a Japanese garden.

    But I was talking about these polite geeks in the new generation who became obsessed with Japan anime, and almost believe they are Japanese, and these guys are spreading in every city.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Daniel Chieh
  92. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Kind of people even go to events of Hatsune Miku in Tokyo, dressed as Hatsune Miku.

    Japanese seem flattered though (she says they take photos).

  93. @Dmitry

    Japan Civilization is putting more specialists into Culture production for a long-term plan to flip Vladisvostok.

    Its always been interesting to me how much art output Japan creates, and it should be noted that its not really designed for export. The -chans board within Japan are extremely active and productive, and doujin(independent comics) are popular enough that people can make a living off writing them. “Web novels” or blogs of fiction/episodic content can be popular enough that it can be adapted into anime for a general audience, and so on. IIRC someone mentioned that the much smaller population of Japan on one of the chan boards created almost as much material as American DeviantArt.

    Would be interesting if that was analyzed someday, and filtered for “high quality” art akin to high quality science.

  94. Marcus says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    No idea, but they have the lowest minimum wage in Europe (or close to it)

  95. Dmitry says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    And this is a bad thing, why? Why on Earth should anyone want to have foreign ethnicities constitute their cognitive elite?

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/limits-to-cognitive-elitism/

    Especially when the world is probably near the technological verge of allowing countries to create their own cognitive elites at will (via genetic IQ augmentation).

    There is no lack of clever people now, – the issue is just also having no lack of idiots who lower the average.

  96. @Daniel Chieh

    To give one example: Re: Zero is an incredibly popular anime adapted from the web novels of Tappei Nagatsuki, who is in real life, was a butcher working full time(he might be working part time now). So he essentially wrote material worth millions(and attendant soft power, if you care) in his free time after cutting up meat. Despite owning all that IP now, he continues to work as a butcher.

    Maybe if he quit, he’d be more productive like GRR Martin.

  97. @AP

    When the fact that the thieves are refusing to fight corruption is the sign of sovereignty, that tell us all we need to know about the country. I am glad that I don’t have Ukrainian citizenship: I’d be ashamed to acknowledge it otherwise.

    • Replies: @AP
  98. Dmitry says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Its always been interesting to me how much art output Japan creates, and it should be noted that its not really designed for export.

    This about food as well.

    Some cultures (Japan, Italy) are obsessed with food, with endless distinctions in taste, and where every different village has a special recipes, and there’s an endless creatively in this area.

    I was shocked changing television channels in Japan by how their television was at least half of it about food.

    Other cultures like France have very overrated cuisine, with little creativity – but at least it is important for them that food is at a common standard.

    And then other cultures almost just do not care about this area by comparison.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @utu
  99. Marcus says:
    @AP

    Happily?? Tell me the Ukrainian elite isn’t that dumb/corrupt

    • Replies: @AP
  100. @Daniel Chieh

    Its always been interesting to me how much art output Japan creates, and it should be noted that its not really designed for export.

    It is interesting, Korean pop culture is much more export-intended than Japanese culture yet Japan and Korea still have relatively similar pop cultural influence on each other and on foreign nations.

    Perhaps Chinese pop culture would become more popular abroad if there was a greater push towards making it export-friendly?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @DFH
  101. @Dmitry

    Well, my wife is French so I’m going to have to object to the notion that French food is overrated. French food is probably one of the most scientific and well-organized systems of culinary elegance, but that said, many of its ideas have since been adapted into other forms of cultural cooking by now. But consider, for example, the French theory of sauces which is well-organized and modular, as compared to how Italian alfredo sauce was made with just empirical knowledge.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  102. Mitleser says:
    @Marcus

    She was not talking about fraternizing, she was talking about not creating children who would be abandoned.

    https://govoritmoskva.ru/interviews/2248/

    • Replies: @Marcus
  103. @Felix Keverich

    With the exception of far western Ukraine around Lviv, right? My understanding is that many people’s genetics there are substantially Polish, and to a much lesser extent Slovak. Add Hungarians in the oblast Zakarpattiya.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Felix Keverich
  104. @Hyperborean

    I don’t have a lot of flattering things to say about Chinese artistic scene, beyond hard sci-fi, but I also don’t have a lot of familiarity. I think the censorship has its toll.

    Maybe someday.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  105. Mitleser says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Japan Civilization is putting more specialists into Culture production for a long-term plan to flip Vladisvostok.

    They are not trying hard enough. ;)

  106. Marcus says:
    @Mitleser

    Ok, but my point was that the communist generation (and communist voters of any age) isn’t likely to be less nationalistic/conservative than the youth.

  107. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I’m just pointing out what is happening.

    So, according to you –

    - If Ukraine cracks down on corruption that benefits its local elite, something the West wants – it is a puppet, it is bad

    - If Ukraine’s local elite successfully resists these reform efforts demanded by the West – also bad.

    - Reform efforts and anti-corruption pressure from within Ukraine are mostly coming from western Ukraine and its nationalists (interestingly, Poroshenko is allied with the eastern Ukrainian Opposition Bloc party to stifle reform efforts*). So if Ukraine reforms because of nationalist pressure – I’ll bet you would think this is bad, also.

    So no matter what Ukraine does with reform, it is bad according to you.

    *One factor that would motivate Poroshenko to try to retake Donbas would be to add Opposition Party voters to the electorate. This would kill attempts at limiting corruption in the country.

  108. DFH says:
    @Hyperborean

    Even pre-19th century, my impression is that Chinese culture was very sub-par compared to Japan

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  109. AP says:
    @RadicalCenter

    With the exception of far western Ukraine around Lviv, right?

    Ukrainians are fairly uniform genetically. Ethnics Ukrainians even from Russian territory (Belgorod) are more similar to ones from Lviv than they are to their Russian neighbors:

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.3103/S0095452715040106

    Ukrainians as a whole are genetically closest to Belarussians, followed by Slovaks, followed by Russians.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  110. AP says:
    @Marcus

    They aren’t dumb at all, but they are corrupt. The best hope is that they figure out what Russia’s no-less corrupt elite did and opt to at least reform and fix the system enough so that common people live better lives and don’t try to overthrow them.

  111. @DFH

    All almost major Japanese ideas had Chinese origins, however, Chinese artistic output plummeted at some point and was actively attacked for various ideas by the early 1900s(consider the fate of the shenmo stories) and so on.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  112. DreadIlk says:
    @Felix Keverich

    @Daniel Chieh

    No there is no Trump regime. For now. But there is a neocon regime. And each neocon before Trump put his flavor on it. Under each president the machinery of state changed to look like the president. I only remember the last two before Trump. They were weak and let cancer of incompetence and corruption to spread through out the system. On top of it they abused their power.

    So yes the regimes in US are highly personal and you can see it in how the state functions under each president.

  113. Marcus says:

    Yes Greece had very different socioeconomic structures, but they also had much better living standards on avg than Ukraine at the time of their crisis, and we can see how chicanery with the IMF and EU destroyed the mainstream parties’ credibility with the populace.

  114. @Daniel Chieh

    China has vibrant classical culture, which is the basis of Korean and Japanese culture. However, after the fall of the Song dynasty to Mongols in the 13th century, China in general and its culture in particular was in decline. Economically it turned the tide in the last few decades (thanks to boundless greed of Western corporations), but it still does not generate much culture, serious or popular. That might be the reason Russian songs are so popular in China ever since 1960s. They translated these songs, and it is very funny for anyone familiar with them to hear Chinese singing Russian songs in Chinese (they do sing well – Chinese language is tonal, so everyone has a good ear for music).

    • Replies: @DFH
  115. @AP

    Ukrainian science is amazing. If you want to prove that 2×2=5.5, ask a Ukrainian scientist, preferably a member of their Academy of Sciences (yes, they do have that Academy, even though they have no science to speak of).

    • Agree: melanf
    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @AP
  116. DFH says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Chinese language is tonal, so everyone has a good ear for music

    Then how do you explain Peking opera?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  117. @DFH

    I have to confess that I’ve never heard Peking opera, even though I was about a week in Beijing. I know that pretty much all Chinese and Vietnamese (two nations that have tonal languages) sing very well, which is not true for any other nation. I am a good example of that: I like good (complex, like classical) music, but I cannot sing at all, so I consider my refraining from singing as a service to the society.

  118. melanf says:
    @Mightypeon

    That is in Kazan though ;:)

    All-Russian literature Olympiad in Kazan. Medalists from Sakhalin Alexander Kim and Maria Kim http://ujnosahalinsk.bezformata.ru/listnews/prizerov-finala-vserossijskoj-olimpiadi/66152326/

  119. utu says:
    @Dmitry

    I do not think you know much about food and certainly you do not understand it.

  120. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    I went to the cultural center on Arbat during a meeting and they were complaining about it. This was about 15 years ago. It still wasn’t done.

    This is almost as bad a dumb , retarded lie as the one about why Yuschenko’s “Ukrainian” is in fact Russian

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  121. Gerard2 says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Ukrainian science is amazing. If you want to prove that 2×2=5.5, ask a Ukrainian scientist, preferably a member of their Academy of Sciences

    All the serious and talented Ukrainian scientists left for Russia years ago

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  122. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    [MORE]

    The fact that you keep posting a Ukrainian-language video and insist it is in Russian suggests that you can speak neither
    Ukrainian nor Russian. Ukrainian or Russian speakers feel free to confirm.

    I think we both know you can’t, whereas Ii can you projecting c*nt.
    LOL, that video is as clear a proof as any ( not from the tv host you stupid twat) that to call “Ukrainian” a separate language is beyond stupid

    The fact that the story is one in which an identical story happened in Russia weeks before * that, and 90% of the comments in Russian, as usual for a ukrop video), speaks volumes….and in Rivne as well

  123. Mr. Hack says:
    @Gerard2

    This is almost as bad a dumb , retarded lie as the one about why Yuschenko’s “Ukrainian” is in fact Russian

    We’ve been through this before, and Yushchenko was speaking in Ukrainian (in a 3 minute clip he included one discernible Russian word). It’s obvious that you’re fixated on your own past bloopers. Get a life, or better yet, get a brain! :-(

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  124. @Gerard2

    Many left for Russia, but many moved to the US, some even to Europe. We have a few faculty members from Ukraine here, and we are consistently in the top 15 US Universities. The main fact is correct, though: people with a brain left (which partially explains current political landscape in Ukraine, where the speaker of the Rada, Andriy Parubiy, is a certified retard).

  125. My own hypothesis is that, for various reasons cultural closeness being one of them, Ukrainian brain drain towards Russia was more significant then Ukrainian brain drain towards the west. What I mean is that Ukrainians who move to Russia become Russians (somewhat) which is less the case for Ukrainians moving to the west. Prio to Maidan, migration towards Russia was also much simpler.

    I think that the negative effect of the brain drain struck the Russophone parts stronger then the pro western ones. Ukrainians who liked Russia could easily move there, significantly improving their security and their earnings in the process, and pretty much stay there. Ukrainians who strongly disliked Russia would not migrate there, had frequently less opportunities to migrate west, and thus stayed and “stewed” in their own anger.

    Recently had an expat event with an Ukrainian lady (not fully Maidan but pretty certain that Ukraine is not Russia) and some Thais. The Thai got a bit drunk and was asking about how that whole thing actually happened. I kind of tried to make an equivalence between the Thai-Viet and the Russo-Polish rivalry, with Ukraine/Cambodia in the middle and getting dunked on by everyone. The Ukrainian lady made an impassioned plea to Ukrainian rebelliousness, aversion to authority and spontanity. The Thai was like “ah, so you basically Ukrainians are like Russians but less organized and thus less good at violence?” . I chuckled a bit too loudly and thus didnt get laid.

  126. @Dmitry

    Fairly famous, but worth sharing. She put in quite a bit of effort to capture the “feel” of the main character as well and was trying to replicate the first episode.

    IIRC it was an exhibition match, so there was nothing to win or lose, so might as well mess around and have fun.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  127. @Mightypeon

    The Ukrainian lady made an impassioned plea to Ukrainian rebelliousness, aversion to authority and spontanity. The Thai was like “ah, so you basically Ukrainians are like Russians but less organized and thus less good at violence?” .

    Epic self-pwn.

  128. @Mr. XYZ

    It seems like all of your posts start with a colon. Is that something specific to your mobile that you’re writing in?

    Also, these immigrants could replace the Jews (whose numbers are rapidly declining and have been declining since the 1960s) as Russia’s cognitive elite.

    I think China needs a Russian artistic elite more than Russia needs a foreign cognitive elite.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Mr. XYZ
    , @melanf
  129. @Daniel Chieh

    China mostly needs Russian advanced weapons, as their limited creativity gets in the way of producing their own. They copy-catted a lot of Soviet and Russian military hardware, but ended up making inferior copies. That’s why China bought many C-400 systems from Russia: they need something that actually works right now. In fact, Chinese authorities got wise to it: China is actively wooing scientists (Chinese and non-Chinese) with the record of generating real science that reflects the reality, rather than just pleases the boss. In that they are in a better position than Russia: China has a lot of money to invest. What Russia needs from China is mostly money, and that’s what it is getting: Chinese financing grabbed the market share that was previously occupied by Europeans, who shot themselves in the foot by sanctions, and are now complaining that it hurts.

  130. melanf says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Japan Civilization is putting more specialists into Culture production for a long-term plan to flip Vladisvostok.

    Such a area culture as anime/manga represents a Japanese kowtow before Europeans. Japanese art where the characters are exclusively anthropological europids (even if they are Japanese in the story) – this is a very strange psychological anomaly.

  131. @melanf

    I’m of the belief that they don’t really see the characters as “European” in large part because Golden Time’s writer, for example, wrote the heroine basically as a self-insert, but her self-insert would come off as much less Japanese by appearance than herself. As for why the dissonance, I can’t quite say why. Occasionally they seem to acknowledge it.

    That said, I remember an old and funny conspiracy theory(in the 1980s, when such conspiracy about Nippon Rising was rife) that they portrayed anime with European characters as a future ambition for a world dominated by Japan, with Japanese customs being practiced by non-Japanese people.

  132. @melanf

    I should add:

    Partly, I think its that they see themselves as very, very pale. Europeans are portrayed even paler when they do appear. From Samurai Champloo, consider the contrast between the main characters and the Very Confused Dutchman:

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Hyperborean
  133. @RadicalCenter

    I have argued that Galicians are racially distinct from Eastern Slavs. AP obviously disagrees. :)

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  134. @Mightypeon

    Don’t mix sex with politics, that’s all. Especially when the target is from a nation or a group with severe inferiority complex.

  135. @Felix Keverich

    Galicians are half-Polish (although the nationalistic ones would vehemently deny it, enlisting some “science” produced by quacks; e.g., see AP post #111 above). Poles are supposed to be Western Slavs, like Czechs. Most Ukrainians have a lot of Turkish (possibly Khazar) blood: decidedly non-Slavic dark eyes and black hair is common, like among Bulgarians, for the same reason. People lie, but genes do not.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @AP
  136. melanf says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Partly, I think its that they see themselves as very, very pale.

    The Japanese may have pale skin, but when the hero (Japanese schoolboy) is fiery red – haired and his girlfriend – blonde, its impossible to make a mistake-anthropologically they are Europeans. In addition, the Japanese artists (when they want) draw a definite Mongoloids

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  137. Marcus says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Are you sure? Poles were like a ruling caste in Galicia, even during Austrian rule, doubt they’d intermix much with the lowly Ruthenes

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    , @AP
  138. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Ukrainian science is amazing

    Study is basically a Russian study (look at the authors).

    Author affiliations are:

    1.Karazin Kharkov National University Kharkov Ukraine
    2.Research Center for Medical Genetics Moscow Russia
    3.Estonian Biocenter Tartu Estonia
    4.Vavilov Institute of General Genetics MoscowRussia
    5.Belgorod State University Belgorod Russia

    For someone making such a dumb mistake you probably shouldn’t denigrate any national sciences.

    ::::::::::::::::::::

    So, study confirms that Ukrainians even in Belgorod Russia are genetically closer to Ukrainians in Lviv than they are to next-door Russians.

  139. @Mightypeon

    The Ukrainian lady made an impassioned plea to Ukrainian rebelliousness, aversion to authority and spontanity. The Thai was like “ah, so you basically Ukrainians are like Russians but less organized and thus less good at violence?”

    The Ukrainian lady had a point. While Ukrainian people is a variation of Russians, it is a “Southern” variation of Russians. Like all Southerners, Ukrainians are prone to strong emotions and are somewhat chaotic.

  140. @Marcus

    What makes it so hard to believe? In an age without contraception some Polish noble could impregnate a lot a peasant Galician girls.

    Also, the Jews served as tax collectors in the Polish Ukraine – probably got their share of sexy time as well.

    • Replies: @AP
  141. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Galicians are half-Polish (although the nationalistic ones would vehemently deny it, enlisting some “science” produced by quacks; e.g., see AP post #111 above).

    One of the “quacks” in the study I posted is Balanovsky, one of the most significant Russian genenticists.

    Here is the link to the study:

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.3103/S0095452715040106

    Authors:

    O. M. Utevska rA. S. Pshenichnov Kh. D. Dibirova S. Rootsi A. T. Agdzhoyan M. I. ChurnosovE. V. Balanovska L. A. Atramentova O. P. Balanovsky

    Author affiliations:

    1.Karazin Kharkov National University Kharkov Ukraine
    2.Research Center for Medical Genetics Moscow Russia
    3.Estonian Biocenter Tartu Estonia
    4.Vavilov Institute of General Genetics Moscow Russia
    5.Belgorod State University Belgorod Russia

    Conclusion:

    In general, the Ukrainian and Russian populations of Slobozhanshchina are very close genetically; their set and frequency range of Y-chromosome haplogroups are typical for Eastern Europe. However, a detailed analysis of highly informative Y-chromosome markers showed that both nations retain the ethnic specificity of their gene pools after 3.5 centuries of coexistence in the same historical territory: the Ukrainian populations are similar to the rest of Ukraine, and Russian populations gravitate towards the south of European Russia.

    Most Ukrainians have a lot of Turkish (possibly Khazar) blood

    Genetics contradicts this.* Ukrainians do have some Balkan descent, which likely explains their darker features, and less Finnic descent than do Russians.

    People lie, but genes do not.

    Indeed. You lie, genes do not.

    *There are some local exceptions – near Kharkiv there was some Turkic settlement and local Ukrainians from there show some Turkic descent

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  142. AP says:
    @Marcus

    He is full of nonsense. Just look at his stupid comments about the study I posted. I wouldn’t take him seriously.

    Central Ukrainians and Left Bank Ukrainians actually have more Polish descent than do Galicians. Why? The Polish community there was only about 10% of the population and nearly all were assimilated by the local Ukrainians. The Mazovian peasants who settled there mingled with local Ukrainian peasants, and the petty nobles mixed with local Ukrainian petty nobles or cosack officer families. Gogol, for example, had a Polish grandparent. In the genetic studies Ukrainians from central Ukraine were closer to Poles than Galicians were.

    In Galicia the Polish community (about 23% of Galicia’s population) was never absorbed by the Ukrainians and remained intact until it was killed and deported in the 20th century. There were rare cases of intermarriage but not a population-wide absorbtion.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  143. AP says:
    @Felix Keverich

    In an age without contraception some Polish noble could impregnate a lot a peasant Galician girls.

    A lot of the “Polish” nobles in Galicia were Polonized Rus nobles so it wouldn’t be evident in genetic studies.

    Also, the Jews served as tax collectors in the Polish Ukraine – probably got their share of sexy time as well.

    Almost no Jewish descent shows up in genetic studies of Ukrainians. However a lot of Jews from this region have paternal Slavic ancestry; the serf and Cossack uprisings evidently involved a significant number of rapes.

  144. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    Also it is boring for a comic book artist to paint Japanese externally racial characters – every character would look the same as each other. You can only use clothes then to distinguish between different characters.

    They already had this problem in the film “Akira” (1988). In “Akira” – they paint the characters as realistic Japanese, and I was getting confused between them because all the characters look like the same guy.

    It is ironic that the best comics are made by the world’s most ethnically homogeneous large-population country (Japan). But it is then quite predictable that comics are multinational in a country where the population naturally look almost the same as each other, and the artists will become rapidly bored, and their comics quite confusing, if they painted them as realistic Japanese.

    -
    As for a intrinsic multinational aspect of comics (as a way to reduce the boredom of the artists’ painting every character the same).
    In the (American) television show “Futurama”

  145. Mitleser says:
    @Dmitry

    Same face can be averted by enough artistic effort.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  146. @AP

    Man, do you have any idea what science is and how it operates? A person “Balanovsky OP” has 11 entries in PubMed. Most of my post-docs have more. If that personage is “leading” in anything, my condolences to whoever or whatever he is leading. This is a typical record of a quack, not particularly smart quack at that. Than his conclusions are not surprising. I know people doing total BS science in former USSR who have stronger record in PubMed.

    • Replies: @AP
  147. @Dmitry

    To some extent, the hair colors are supposed to be stylized to have additional, contextual meanings.

    https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Japanese-characters-have-blue-eyes-and-blond-hair-in-anime/answer/Martin-Schneider-2

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  148. @Daniel Chieh

    … beyond hard sci-fi

    Any recs beyond The 3-Body Problem?

    I won’t be making use of it now, but maybe in the future if I get back into Chinese.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @Daniel Chieh
  149. Marcus says:
    @AP

    Yes, my impression is that the Austrian authorities successfully defused any kind of Polish insurgency comparable to what was happening in Prussian and Russian ruled areas, by basically recognizing the nobility’s privileges and ending Germanization. So Poles would have been 1.5 class citizens in the dual monarchy, but Ruthenes would’ve been 3rd class. Ruthenes looked east to help, some to Russia, but most to the emerging Ukrainian nationalist intellectual current.Anyway it really is amazing how Franz-Joseph’s government wsa able to hold A-H together for as long as it did.

    • Replies: @AP
  150. c matt says:
    @DFH

    Well, it was a 2016 poll. A lot has happened since 2016.

  151. @AP

    @AP
    “Almost no Jewish descent shows up in genetic studies of Ukrainians. However a lot of Jews from this region have paternal Slavic ancestry; the serf and Cossack uprisings evidently involved a significant number of rapes.”
    Do you have a source for your claim?

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Marcus
  152. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Just dig your hole deeper :-)

    A person “Balanovsky OP” has 11 entries in PubMed. Most of my post-docs have more.

    Balanovsky is at Vavilov Institute of General Genetics.

    http://en.vigg.ru/

    The Vavilov Institute of General Genetics (VIGG) is the oldest institute of Genetics in the Russian Academy of Sciences

    Balanovsky heads the department of Genogeography at VIGG:

    http://en.vigg.ru/institute/subdivisions/independent-divisions/genogeography/

    Nice to know that Anon in TN considers him to be a “quack.”

    His claims about Balanovsky tells us more about Anon in TN than about Balanovky.

    BTW, the article I linked to was from a normal, peer-reviewed scientific journal.

    See, you mostly write and believe complete nonsense about Ukraine. So when you happen to encounter reality, it seems like quackery to you.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  153. AP says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    These are haplogroups among European peoples:

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

    Ukrainians have basically no Jewish descent. They do have significantly more Balkan descent than do Russians or Poles. This probably is what makes them darker, and may explain their average IQ being a little lower than that of other Slavs, though not as low as in the Balkans (Balkan peoples have the lowest average intelligence in Europe, similar to that of Mexicans).

    Typical Slavic haplogroup is R1A. About 5% to 8% of the Ashkenazi (male) gene pool comes from non-Jewish carriers of this haplogroup.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  154. Marcus says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    Anecdotal, but I’m pretty sure the Klitschko brothers, Petro Poroshenko, and Yulia Tymoshenko all have some Jewish blood. Ofc this doesn’t matter unless you’re an anti-semite of the most autistic variety.

    • Replies: @AP
  155. Dmitry says:
    @Mitleser

    Your picture is also the explanation of how Japanese fashion is unusually weird (cosplay is weird in itself, but in Japan a lot of people do it as their normal clothes).

    In country where everyone looks like they come from the same family and has variations on the same face, then Japanese fashion is understandable way to distinguish themselves like you can in this drawing board.

    It is also specifically designed for racially Japanese girls who have similar faces.

    When Russian girls are trying to cosplay Japanese cartoons – aside from weirdness, most of them are looking like transsexuals.

    These are probably not even bad looking girls outside costume.

    For comparison, on the racial Japanese girls, the costumes is actually designed for them

    • Replies: @Toronto Russian
    , @melanf
  156. AP says:
    @Marcus

    Anecdotal, but I’m pretty sure the Klitschko brothers, Petro Poroshenko, and Yulia Tymoshenko all have some Jewish blood.

    Tymoshenko, yes. IIRC she is 1/4 Jewish.

    Poroshenko, no. There was fake news that his father was a Jew who converted and changed his name but this is false. His family tree, at least back to the early 1800s, has no Jewish people in it.

    I don’t know anything about Klitschko brothers’ background.

  157. Marcus says:
    @AP

    Are Greeks still a distinct minority in Ukraine? The seem to have been the “right kind of immigrants” in the Russian imperial view.

    • Replies: @AP
  158. AP says:
    @Marcus

    Yes, my impression is that the Austrian authorities successfully defused any kind of Polish insurgency comparable to what was happening in Prussian and Russian ruled areas, by basically recognizing the nobility’s privileges and ending Germanization.

    They curtailed Polish noble privileges significantly. They allowed serfs to use neutral Austrian courts rather than ones run by the Polish nobles who owned them, which cut down on abuses significantly.
    They then abolished serfdom in 1848. So the serfs were very grateful to the Austrians for that.

    The Austrians treated the Poles much better than the Russians and the Prussians did, so Poles generally kept quiet.

    So Poles would have been 1.5 class citizens in the dual monarchy, but Ruthenes would’ve been 3rd class.

    This is generally correct, but the reality was more nuanced. It was a conservative regime that favored class and naturally this placed Poles collectively at an advantage. But there were, actually, some Ruthenian/Ukrainian nobles in Galicia and they prospered. One of my relatives, Ludwig-Alexander Sembratowitsch, had attained the rank of Field Marshal Lieutenant (his brother and uncle were heads of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church) and was in the Austrian House of Lords. Not my surname, otherwise I wouldn’t have mentioned it here.

    Austrians also elevated and created an educated class of Ukrainians centered on priests:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Ukrainian_clergy

    So they played a positive role for Ukrainians and earned a lot of gratitude from them.

    Ruthenes looked east to help, some to Russia, but most to the emerging Ukrainian nationalist intellectual current.

    Correct.

    Anyway it really is amazing how Franz-Joseph’s government wsa able to hold A-H together for as long as it did.

    It was the best situation for a bunch of small nations stuck between Germany and Russia.

  159. AP says:
    @Marcus

    I’ve never met one, but they do exist, mostly in southern Donbas like Mariupol. There’s a wiki article about them. Apparently they were Crimean Greeks who were forcibly resettled to southern Donbas by Catherine the Great. They were joined by refugees from the Ottoman Empire over the years.

  160. Dmitry says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    In some anime, they are intentionally portraying Europe. E.g. “Howl’s Moving Castle”.

    Whereas “Spirited Away”, is portraying Japanese characters.

    There is a different in drawing from the same studio (Studio Ghibli) but not so much noticeable.

    In “Spirited Away”. (Japanese character)

    In “Howl’s Moving Castle” (European characters – looking like a Western European country, like the Netherlands)

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Daniel Chieh
  161. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    The city in Kiki’s Delivery Service is based on Stockholm (I am such a hipster that my kids watched Miyazaki and classic Soviet cartoons rather than Disney)

  162. Marcus says:

    Back to topic, Russia has a long history of selecting for the “right” immigrants. This may have been the first modern immigration policy

    http://m.dw.com/en/catherine-the-great-and-the-russian-germans/a-16965100

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  163. @Dmitry

    This is surely a rising fast demographic in educated Western populations (including many scientists, engineers, managers, etc) at the moment – people who oppose mass immigration, not through uneducated prejudices towards the world, but from a simple rational understanding of the unpleasant consequences of these policies.

    Count me as a member of this group, and far beyond mere opposition to immigration.

  164. @AnonFromTN

    He wasn’t criticizing imperialism.

    He was insulting Russians for being insufficiently racist and thus stooping to miscegenation, and not of the respectable #BleachRight variety.

    If your claims are correct that’s a deficiency of the Russian national character and nothing to be proud of at all.

    Not that the West has a leg to stand on these days on this front.

  165. @neutral

    The Ukraine will be much poorer than almost every other white country, including even Balkanoid swine, for a very long time. It’s unlikely to suffer much immigration any time soon.

    I wouldn’t even be surprised if the main source of immigrants now is white men from the West looking for beautiful and (somewhat) more traditional lovers.

  166. @Mishra

    In terms of attitudes held by the population, sure.

    But even they are waking up. The local nationalist party is now the most popular one in the country.

    A fair amount of Sweden Yes! nonsense is also bizarrely driven by petty nationalism. Specifically a narcissism of small differences with respect to Denmark, Sweden’s oldest rival. Unlike those deceitful racist Danes, Swedes are virtuous!

    You can see a similar things in play in Scotland (vs. England) and Canada (vs. USA).

  167. Dmitry says:

    I found this open paper, claiming Japan may not be as completely homogeneous as we perceive, in some ways.

    Japanese north–south gradient in IQ predicts differences in stature, skin color, income, and homicide rate

    Regional differences in IQ are estimated for 47 prefectures of Japan. IQ scores obtained from official achievement tests show a gradient from north to south. Latitudes correlate with height, IQ, and skin color at r = 0.70, 0.44, 0.47, respectively. IQ also correlates with height (0.52), skin color (0.42), income (0.51) after correction, less homicide rate (− 0.60), and less divorce (− 0.69) but not with fertility infant mortality. The lower IQ in southern Japanese islands could be attributable to warmer climates with less cognitive demand for more than fifteen hundred years.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289613000949

    -

    The paper claims Akita region of Northern Honshu island records highest average IQ test scores, while Okinawa Islands in the oceans furthest South of Japan, records the lowest in these test scores.

    However, this tendency was not observed and instead there exists a simple intelligence gradient from south to north. This may be due to an almost perfect admixture within the last 1500 year (about more than 60 generations) as far as genes for taller stature and higher intelligence are concerned, as well as the selective pressures of the last 1500 years of civilization, which have been strong enough to reshape the original east–west IQ gradient into the current north–south cline. This conclusion would be in line with the Hawks, Wang, Cochran, Harpending, and Moyzis (2007)idea of ever-accelerating human evolution. They insist that more and more beneficial mutations swept populations, after the advent of agricultural civilizations with metallurgy, letters and complex hierarchical organizations. The Japanese north–south gradient in height and intelligence can be evidence that modern humans have evolved to higher intelligence within the last two millennia.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @German_reader
  168. @Hyperborean

    Paywall. Worth noting Reinfeldt is an octoroon.

    Most of Sweden’s cultural and political development came from abroad from circa 1000 – 1500 AD or so, and foreigners continued to be important in the development of the nation’s economy for another two centuries. Prior to that Sweden was part of an emergent Viking civilization, but like our cousins the Danes and the Norwegians we threw in our lot with the West.

    And yes, Swedes were largely barbarians before Christianization. Nothing to be ashamed of. Tacitus had mostly positive things to say about the ancient Germans.

    Of course to ignore the past five centuries of indigenous Swedish development, including some very impressive feats in many fields (war, politics, business, science, engineering, etc.) is of course disgraceful.

    And the Swedish barbarians managed to found Russia.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  169. @Daniel Chieh

    I think part of it has to due with the ideal beauty self-conception of Japanese people.

    While there are many Japanese people that look different to each other, the ones who fit the ideal beauty standard tend to look more similar phenotypically to anime style characters.

    If one looks at K-pop singers (who tend to portray the ideal Korean beauty standard) I think their looks are also not that distant from anime characters.

    So artists who want to draw beautifully will also draw beautiful people.

    Which raises the question of how much Japanese beauty standards has been influenced by European looks.

    Although probably there are other reasons as well (e.g. Variety of hair colours – too boring with all black haired people?)

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  170. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    The paper claims Akita region of Northern Honshu island records highest average IQ test scores, while Okinawa Islands in the oceans furthest South of Japan, records the lowest in these test scores.

    With the average IQ score of 108 – maybe Karlin needs to lead a scientific team sent here to measure their skulls.

    According to youtube, railway in the region is called the “Akita beautiful women” railway.

  171. @Daniel Chieh

    Was going to use the “agree” button, but for some baffling reason the use of these buttons is limited to once per hour.

    And yes, the French sauces are the ultimate argument for French cookery. Compare to any other national cuisine. It’s not even close.

    And that’s really just the beginning.

    Italian cuisine, while itself worth of praise, is basically peasant food. Which of course is ironic given the Florentine origins of haute cuisine.

    Americans deserve credit for perfecting the art of steak, incidentally. I was shocked how inferior steak was in French cookery compared to what’s on offer at American steakhouses.

  172. @Dmitry

    while Okinawa Islands in the oceans furthest South of Japan, records the lowest in these test scores.

    Okinawa isn’t “real” Japan as far as I know, wasn’t it only annexed in the 19th century? I think the native islanders there are still seen as ethnically somewhat distinct from mainland Japanese.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  173. @Thorfinnsson

    Of course to ignore the past five centuries of indigenous Swedish development, including some very impressive feats in many fields (war, politics, business, science, engineering, etc.) is of course disgraceful.

    Agreed. Reinfeldt was just being political. I just found it interesting that his statement implied that Sweden’s current state of affairs was not a natural outcome.

    With Germany it is easy to dismiss it as the result of 4-Ds deconstruction and indoctrination but with Sweden it is harder to explain the cause. Even after having lived there for many years I still can’t figure it out.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  174. @AP

    I understand that defending a totally false position is hard, but even lies require some order and logic. You were repeatedly frothing at the mouth claiming that genetically Ukrainians are very different from Russians, and then you say this:

    A lot of the “Polish” nobles in Galicia were Polonized Rus nobles so it wouldn’t be evident in genetic studies.

    Implying exactly the opposite: that Russian admixture wouldn’t be revealed in the genetic studies.
    As they say in modern Russia, you should either take off your necktie, or put on your pants.

    • Replies: @AP
  175. @Marcus

    “On-topic” obsessives are complete swine and a bane on message board culture.

    That sort of immigrant recruitment was quite common in that time period in Europe, and had been at least since Henry VII deliberately recruited Flemish textile workers to England in the 15th century.

  176. @AP

    It is clear that science is not your forte (what is, I wonder). FYI, there are thousands of “peer-reviewed” scientific-looking journals nowadays (personally, I get one or two invitations to join editorial boards of new ones every day, and send them all to hell in polite terms). Some have an impact of 0.02 (meaning that an average paper published there is cited 0.02 times per year, or would have been cited once in 50 years, if the journal lived that long). In practical terms, you get better exposure to the scientific community by putting your poster on the wall than by publishing in journals with impact lower than 2. For comparison, the best journals in biology have an impact in the 30-60 range; anything above 10 is considered reasonably high profile.

    BTW, only hopeless “sovok” would cite this person’s job title as an argument that his science is respectable. As they say in the States, “you can take a boy out of the ‘hood, but you can’t take the ‘hood out of a boy”.

    • Replies: @AP
  177. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    No, the colon is just a part of my writing style. Maybe I should change this.

    Also, having some Russian artists move to China and make Chinese-Russian fusion art there would certainly be very interesting!

  178. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Haven’t some Chinese people been moving to Africa in spite of the lower salaries there, though?

    Also, do you think that large-scale Chinese immigration to the West will stop once China’s quality of life and GDP per capita will reach Western European levels?

    As for the cognitive elite part, does that mean that you think that it was a mistake for the U.S. to import a lot of Jews in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as well as to import a lot of Asians after 1965?

    Also, does this mean that you would have approved of measures in Tsarist times which compelled a lot of Jews to emigrate from Tsarist Russia (such as the anti-Semitic Pale of Settlement and anti-Jewish affirmative action)?

    As for the genetic IQ augmentation part, do you think that we will see significant results in regards to this in our own lifetimes? After all, it would certainly be nice to see a significant increase in average IQs within our own lifetimes as well as to see a massive population boom in underpopulated countries such as Russia within our own lifetimes.

  179. @Mr. XYZ

    Haven’t some Chinese people been moving to Africa in spite of the lower salaries there, though?

    Aren’t a lot of them employed by Chinese companies? I would presume that their salary would be closer to Chinese level.

  180. @Mr. XYZ

    The elites won’t allow people’s IQ to go up: then the people would see that they are cheated, and figure out by whom. That would be the end of the elites, used to rule over stupid masses that believe their MSM, and rob those suckers blind.

    As to increased birthrate, you don’t need miracles or rocket science to achieve that. It can be done by government policies when the government feels the need to increase the population. Apparently, Russian government is not concerned enough about that to do something meaningful.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  181. Dmitry says:
    @Hyperborean

    If one looks at K-pop singers (who tend to portray the ideal Korean beauty standard) I think their looks are also not that distant from anime characters.

    Do you have an interesting explanation why K-pop is so popular?

    For me it always seemed the militarized and Westernized imitation of Japan, and the music sounds itself like American pop in a new language.

    The interest in J-pop is understandable – as it actually sounds musically distinct, with its own melodies – and it reflects Japanese popular culture which is something still original, and product of an unbroken and interesting culture and country.

    The interesting thing in K-pop is the similarity to North Korean culture, with the high regimentation and women selected only for aesthetic reasons.

    With the music videos, some guys are just using it as porn (but even then most of the audience are female, even the youtube comments).

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Hyperborean
  182. @Anatoly Karlin

    The Wandering Earth short stories are pretty good in general. Love the quiet optimism that almost sneaks up on you, very much captures that sense in China. There’s a character who writes down simple goals, starts with “Drink non-bitter water” and update them each chapter. It ends with “Give hope to all humanity.”

    Death Notice is pretty good as well, but did not survive translation too well in my opinion.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  183. @Dmitry

    Might as well post the best swordfight ever.

  184. @German_reader

    Yes, that’s exactly true. And seen as quite distinct, for better or worse.

    Amusingly, they also have a higher TFR than other Japanese.

  185. Dmitry says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Look at her Twitter account – she is definitely much more patriot of Japan and Korea, than of Russia.

    Not saying it as a criticism of her, but with respect at the cultural power and domination of those countries over this generation.

    Can you imagine a reverse? That the top Japanese athletes (and a portion of all the youth around the world) would somehow become obsessed with Russian pop culture and pop music.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @melanf
    , @A.A.
  186. @Mr. XYZ

    Haven’t some Chinese people been moving to Africa in spite of the lower salaries there, though?

    Africa is a high risk, high reward proposition: its a frontier of sorts. Its always interesting that sense.

    But its really, really dysfunctional in a way that any comparison to Russia is laughable; Russia is basically a normal country, not a place where you can summon up a local mob, shoot up the defenders and take control of a mine. You can’t even pay bribes in Nigeria, there’s a severe risk it will be stolen before it reaches the person you were trying to bribe. Its all pretty insane and irrational. It can be fun for the right type of personality.

  187. @Dmitry

    Well, still a distant #2 to the real Cultural War of our game of Civilization: U.S.A.

    Mostly represented by the rainbow flag at present.

  188. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    You were repeatedly frothing at the mouth claiming that genetically Ukrainians are very different from Russians

    I never claimed that, Liar from TN.

    Indeed, I stated “Ukrainians as a whole are genetically closest to Belarussians, followed by Slovaks, followed by Russians.”

    That would make them pretty close.

    Now below you demonstrate low level of thinking ability.

    We can add this to your dishonesty.

    A lot of the “Polish” nobles in Galicia were Polonized Rus nobles so it wouldn’t be evident in genetic studies.

    Implying exactly the opposite: that Russian admixture wouldn’t be revealed in the genetic studies

    .

    Who mentioned Russians? A Rus nobleman in Galicia who got Polonized was originally of similar stock as the Rus peasant in Galicia. Thus, even though the Polonized nobleman was culturally a Pole, the product of his liasion with a Galician peasant would not be half-Polish but fully Rus (which in Galicia would mean a Ukrainian).

    Understand now?

  189. @Dmitry

    Well, speaking of interesting and unusual things that Japan does artistically, there’s this effort to update the puppet/doll show.

    Not really my thing, I only knew of it because I follow the composer of the music, but its an interesting experiment at any rate. I appreciate such efforts.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  190. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    BTW, only hopeless “sovok” would cite this person’s job title as an argument that his science is respectable.

    You cited the proposed nationality of the author as an argument that the science was not respectable. Very “scientific.” But you were wrong – authors were mostly Russian. It follows your pattern of incompetence.

    You then claimed Balanovsky, one of the authors, was a quack. I pointed out that this, in your opinion, “quack”, heads the department of Genogeography at VIGG, the oldest institute of Genetics in the Russian Academy of Sciences.

    I know of a case where a schizophrenic nephew of one of Putin’s cronies got to head a department of a lesser institute, but my opinion of Russia is not so low that I would imagine a “quack” would come to head a department at something like VIGG.

    You are from Luhansk, so by definition – Sovok.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @AnonFromTN
  191. @Dmitry

    Do you have an interesting explanation why K-pop is so popular?

    I was reading a bit and I found this bit about K-pop:

    The qualities that typify a K-Pop song, according to JD Relic, an in-house songwriter and producer for Marcan Entertainment, are more or less universal. “Choruses tend to be a simple, yet with a catchy melody. In Asia, karaoke is so huge. One thing that we’ve noticed is that if you have a song that’s really singable it’s more likely to be a hit, because people can go to the karaoke lounge and sing your song. But if it’s really complicated, it’s harder to sing and enjoy. I think that’s a big aspect of writing songs that are hits.”

    In addition to simple, catchy melodies and a limited repertoire of subject matter, video and choreographed dancing play a huge role in the creation of a song.

    “A lot of K-Pop singles are dance tracks, the majority of them,” Relic says. “So you have to take that into account. Can someone make a good choreography at a song at this tempo? Or the flow? It’s almost like half and half — the choreography and presentation’s equally as important as the song. If one’s not good, everything falls apart. I definitely try to write stuff that lends itself to the choreography.”

    [...]

    Indeed, a K-Pop concert is extremely interactive. Fans will bring balloons and glow sticks to match their band’s “fan color.” Even more impressive are the fan chants. These are complex chants — backing vocals and countermelodies — that the audience sings in unison, along with the band’s performance. As Simon from Eat Your Kimchi explained, “the record labels will actually release a song to the official fan groups before it hits the actual airwaves. The fan groups can memorize a fan chant of a song, so at the actual debut performance of the song they can sing along with it. It’s a crucial part of the marketing.”

    https://www.theverge.com/2012/10/18/3516562/k-pop-invades-america-south-korea-pop-music-factory

    So K-pop’s popularity probably results from a combination of several factors:

    - ‘Simple, yet catchy’ melodies.

    - Importance put on Choreography and presentation. I think I can confirm this; my female (Chinese) classmates sometimes spend hours watching idols sing and dance, even imitating them at times.

    - A focus on projecting a certain brand ex. ‘sexy’ (Stellar) or ‘cute’ (Apink).

    For me it always seemed the militarized and Westernized imitation of Japan, and the music sounds itself like American pop in a new language.

    Korea is interesting; it often seems like a American interpretation of Japan would be like.

    K-pop are often very suggestive. They usually have a lot of hip-swinging and revealing clothes.

    The interesting thing in K-pop is the similarity to North Korean culture, with the high regimentation and women selected only for aesthetic reasons.

    This is also seen to some extent in other countries ex. the Japanese Perfume and Morning Musume and the Chinese offshoot of AKB48 SNH48.

    I think this militaristic discipline allows them to make impressive performances but it is probably not very fun for the singers whose lives are very restricted.

    Probably this trend will become more popular in other countries due to the increasing experience of foreign singers in K-pop as they re-export it to their home countries like Japan, Mainland China, Taiwan, Thailand etc.

    https://m.ranker.com/list/best-foreign-kpop-idols/ranker-music

  192. melanf says:
    @AP

    You then claimed Balanovsky, one of the authors, was a quack. I pointed out that this, in your opinion, “quack”, heads the department of Genogeography at VIGG, the oldest institute of Genetics in the Russian Academy of Sciences.

    This of course is ridiculous, because Balanovsky constantly talks about a very large genetic affinity of Russians and Ukrainians

    “«Славяне» (так же, как и «тюрки», и «финно-угры») – это понятия вовсе не генетические, а лингвистические! …. Пока еще ни один лингвист не усомнился в близком родстве русского, украинского и белорусского языков и их принадлежности к славянской группе.
    Что же до сходства генофондов трех восточнославянских народов, то первоначальные исследования показали, что они похожи настолько, что иной раз и различить-то не удается. Правда, эти годы мы не стояли на месте и теперь уже научились видеть тонкие отличия украинского генофонда. Белорусы же из северных и центральных областей по всему множеству изученных генов пока неотличимы от русских, показано своеобразие лишь белорусов Полесья.”

    And you accused Balanovsky in pseudo-science for his study of genetics North Russian. But now you forget about it, ha

    • Replies: @AP
  193. AP says:
    @melanf

    This of course is ridiculous, because Balanovsky constantly talks about a very large genetic affinity of Russians and Ukrainians

    Correct. And he is right. But he also points out that although Ukrainians and Russians are quite similar, they can also be distinguished from one another, and that Ukrainians even from Belgorod in Russia are more similar to Ukrainians from Lviv than they are to Russians from Belgorod.

    Here is link and abstract:

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.3103/S0095452715040106

    In general, the Ukrainian and Russian populations of Slobozhanshchina are very close genetically; their set and frequency range of Y-chromosome haplogroups are typical for Eastern Europe. However, a detailed analysis of highly informative Y-chromosome markers showed that both nations retain the ethnic specificity of their gene pools after 3.5 centuries of coexistence in the same historical territory: the Ukrainian populations are similar to the rest of Ukraine, and Russian populations gravitate towards the south of European Russia.

    And you accused Balanovsky in pseudo-science for his study of genetics North Russian.

    I’m glad you noticed this discussion. I think it’s very funny that you agreed with Liar from TN whne he claimed Balanovsky’s paper was some kind of Ukrainian pseudoscience:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/russians-dont-want-incompatible-immigrants/#comment-2385155

    I stated that in one of his papers, Balanovsky had an inconsistency between his raw data and chart, and claim in summary. Summary claimed North Russians were Germanic, raw data and chart showed Finnic (not Finnish).

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @melanf
  194. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    “Look at her Twitter account – she is definitely much more patriot of Japan and Korea, than of Russia.”

    “patriot of Japan and Korea” is about the same as a patriot of Israel and Palestine. Or a patriot of England and Ireland. Evgenia Medvedeva is a manga and anime fan, but patriotism has what to do with this hobby ?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  195. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    Also it is boring for a comic book artist to paint Japanese externally racial characters – every character would look the same as each other. You can only use clothes then to distinguish between different characters.

    That’s not so. Here is Yakut manga http://readmanga.me/yakutia/vol1/1#page=1 . The heroes are Yakuts (Mongoloids), but they are easily distinguished from one another

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  196. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    It is mainly posts about manga, anime, kimonos, K-pop, Japanese food, etc. It is not incompatible (e.g. Korea vs Japan – political conflicts are irrelevant for that pop cultural dissemination).

    She’s not so unusual – there is a subculture of people like this (especially people born from the late 1990s).

    It’s not related to political patriotism (a conscious decision), but to culture patriotism. There exist concepts like “Hellenization”, “Romanization”, “Russification” and “Westernization” – but there is not a word developed yet for the East Asian cultural dissemination (“Azianization”).

    -

    What is impressive (from the perspective of East Asian countries’ “soft power”) is how they are successfully disseminating pop culture despite being so linguistically isolated from the other countries of the world.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  197. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    It is a black-white manga, so the visual element is also limited (by comparison with an anime or a coloured manga).

    Also they still use different looking characters for variety:

    -

    There is anime which doesn’t give the Japanese characters different hair colours.

    However, it is interesting they still paint the main heroine with rounded eyes.

    In “Miss Hokusai”, they are keeping dark hair, but they give her (the heroine) round eyes – so she results looking more Arab than Japanese (in my opinion this is just stupid).

    -

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @melanf
    , @melanf
    , @melanf
  198. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    However, it is interesting they still paint the main heroine with rounded eyes.

    In “Miss Hokusai”, they are keeping dark hair, but they give her (the heroine) round eyes – so she results looking more Arab than Japanese (in my opinion this is just stupid).

    There probably also is an necessary aspect in drawing an animated film, in order to show different emotions of the character in motion, that you need to draw characters with large eyes (the eyes of the animation are far proportionally larger than in any real human of any nationality).

    Even in the all-Japanese and historic animes from 1993, they draw overall large and rounded eyes on the main hero.

  199. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    It is a black-white manga, so the visual element is also limited (by comparison with an anime or a coloured manga).

    Well, this is the Buryat color manga (for those who don’t know who the Buryats – a Mongolian people living in Russia)

  200. A.A. says:
    @Dmitry

    Look at her Twitter account – she is definitely much more patriot of Japan and Korea, than of Russia.

    Evgenia is a smart and image conscious girl, though due to her age much of it must have come from her family. Internally she’s been cultivating a very patriotic Russian image for the last couple of years, I suppose one has to follow figure skating to some degree to be aware of the fact. To the outside public and particularly the Japanese, who are probably the biggest figure skating fans in the world, she has endeared herself with her love of anime and kpop. She’s presented a good image for both her domestic and foreign fans alike.

  201. Mitleser says:
    @AnonFromTN

    It can be done by government policies when the government feels the need to increase the population.

    What kind of government policies?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  202. Mitleser says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Well, speaking of interesting and unusual things that East Asia does artistically, there’s this effort to update the puppet/doll show.

    FIFY

    The puppets are from Taiwan.

    In 2014, Urobuchi came across Pili’s exhibition booth within a Taiwanese comic convention while he was invited as the convention’s special guest. He was greatly impacted by their execution of the art form, prompting him to take home a full set of Pili’s puppet show series to share with his associates within the Japanese ACG industry, and was eager to either plan an original story, or license a couple of series with Pili to dub into Japanese. The news of Urobuchi’s interest in Taiwanese puppetry quickly made its way to Pili, which had a decent percentage of staff members who were, according to Nitroplus representative, Digitarou, “anime savvy, Urobuchi fans.” Therefore, Pili International were also actively searching for ways to contact Urobuchi. Both parties contacted each other within a day’s time frame asking if they wanted to create something fun together; after various discussions from both parties, they decided to create an original story that is, first and foremost, “a straight-forward narrative” easy for first-time puppetry viewers and the anime demographic to process and appreciate.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  203. @AP

    @AP
    Perhaps this internecine infighting(Slav vs Slav) is an example of the “Swine Right”? Anatoly has a post on the topic on the “Swine Right”.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/the-rights-human-capital-problem/

    • Agree: Guillaume Tell
    • Replies: @AP
    , @Daniel Chieh
  204. @A.A.

    Is it possible to become Russian without “Russian blood, heritage or ancestry”?

    • Replies: @A.A.
    , @AnonFromTN
    , @melanf
  205. @Mitleser

    Interesting, I did not know. Thanks.

  206. AP says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    It’s older than that. Some people don’t think the territorial boundaries have been settled. Some people harbor illusions about national identities.

  207. A.A. says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    Is it possible to become Russian without “Russian blood, heritage or ancestry”?

    For Ukrainians and Belorussians, of course. The people are close enough to each other, that assimilation works seamlessly. But they also aren’t really considered to be without “Russian blood, heritage or ancestry”.

    For nations which are father away from Russians, this is a really controversial question. One that leads to countless debates in certain circles. My personal opinion is that it’s possible to become Russian if you a) grow up on the Russian culture and genuinely consider yourself Russian. So, no double allegiances or compound identities; b) are considered to be Russian by other Russians. This usually means your looks have to fall somewhere on the phenotypic continuum that Russians consider their own. I know people who fulfil both criteria with no problems.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Zhukov1945
  208. @Dmitry

    Well, there was this article on Radix, though I don’t know how much I give stock to it. Nick Land found it entertaining, though.

    https://affirmativeright.blogspot.com/2018/02/the-asianization-of-west.html

    I’ve had my own thoughts, but its notable that the Gamersgate, which arguably was the first successful rebellion against the zeistgeist and arguably the entire silliness(yet endurance) of the “Anime Right” are all heavily influenced in such themes. Like most things, its survival and spread is because it works to some extent.

  209. @Rattus Norwegius

    No, that would be more akin to Gerald2 becoming a major leadership figure due to some very perverse incentives in “right-aligned” organizations, and then everyone else tries to tote his line until the inevitable implosion.

  210. @AP

    Good – your hysterics show that I am getting under your skin. I always thought that my being born in Lvov is just a random occurrence, but now I believe that it was a gift of fate, so that I can troll Ukie Nazis, make them go green in the face. Mind you, I am not writing for you (Ukies are hopeless, Ukrainianism is an incurable mental disorder), I am writing for the normal honest people who read these comments.

    Out of sheer curiosity, I did further research on “Balanovsky OP” person you seem to be so fond of. First, the study you quoted covered only Slobozhanschina, i.e., Kharkov region. Second, that “Balanovsky OP” person does have only 11 entries in PubMed. For comparison: my grad students (all of whom graduated before they reached 30 years of age) have 22, 10, and 8 papers from my lab in PubMed. Even the current one, who did not graduate yet, already has 5. Third, according to the ISI site, most of his papers were cited once, some twice, mostly by his other papers. In particular, the paper you quoted from (Utevska et al, 2013), even though it was published 5 years ago, was cited only once, again, by another of his own papers (also with Utevska as the first author). For the uninitiated, this means that his peers don’t take his papers seriously and don’t believe a word he is publishing. For comparison, when I was on the Promotions and Tenure Committee in my University, we didn’t even consider people with fewer that 70 PubMed entries and fewer that 2,500 citations for the Associate Professor position, let alone full Professor. So, no matter how you slice it or dice it, in the realm of science that person does not exist, and likely never will. That tells us all we need to know about his conclusions. But for the third-rate people like Ukies third-rate “science” is OK.

  211. @Mitleser

    Mostly economic. Say, a lump sum upon the birth of every child, long-term paid child-care period (it used to be 3 years in the USSR), the availability and affordability of kindergartens, financial help with higher education ( schools are still free in Russia; colleges were free in the USSR, but now they want pay more often than not), etc. Some of these measures helped to turn the tide in the USSR before it was dissolved, similar policies turned the tide in France before it was invaded by Muslims, etc.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  212. @Rattus Norwegius

    As they say, Russian is not a nationality, but a state of mind. This was best expressed by Bezler, former commander of Gorlovka in the Donetsk People’s Republic: “my father is German, my mother – Ukrainian. So, who am I? A Russian!”

  213. @A.A.

    Well, the looks thing is not obligatory. Say, Shoigu or Lavrov do not look Russian, Lavrov doesn’t even have any Russian blood, but both are unquestioningly considered Russian by the majority of Russian population.

    • Replies: @A.A.
  214. A.A. says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Shoigu or Lavrov do not look Russian, Lavrov doesn’t even have any Russian blood

    Lavrov looks Russian enough I’d say. Russians have a broad range of looks really, looking somewhat dark isn’t terribly uncommon for ethnic Russians in the South. Besides, Lavrov is also half Russian ethnically, his page on the official foreign ministry website lists his ethnicity as “ethnic Russian” for that matter.

    • Replies: @AP
  215. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Ukies are hopeless, Ukrainianism is an incurable mental disorder), I am writing for the normal honest people who read these comments.

    For a ‘college professor’, with a severe case of megalomania, you sure know know how to dole out plain old everyday, garden variety Ukrainophobic stupid BS! I mean really, what makes you think that Russianism is any more ‘sane’ than Ukrainianism (you’re a poster child for the first malady)? You sound like a modern day crusading black shirted bigot! Do you hate Jews too?

  216. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    “my father is German, my mother – Ukrainian. So, who am I? A Russian!”

    and what about your own ‘illustrious’ pedigree? Let me guess:

    My father is an alcoholic, my mother was a party functionary. So, who am I?

    A Ukrainophobe!

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  217. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Good – your hysterics show that I am getting under your skin

    Only one showing “hysterics” is you – making silly false claims and dumb mistakes.

    I did further research on “Balanovsky OP” person you seem to be so fond of. First, the study you quoted covered only Slobozhanschina, i.e., Kharkov region.

    It included data from Lviv, Khmelytsky, and southern Russia.

    Second, that “Balanovsky OP” person does have only 11 entries in PubMed. For comparison: my grad students (all of whom graduated before they reached 30 years of age) have 22, 10, and 8 papers from my lab in PubMed.

    1. You are dumb as usual. “Oleg Balanovsky” yields 74 results on pubmed.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=oleg+balanovsky

    2. Utevska has 11 publications on PubMed.

    Out of curiosity, I looked up random professors. Here is a full professor of biology from SUNY- Plattsburgh (Slish DF):

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Slish+DF

    8 results on pub med! I gues by your standards they don’t hire anybody there.

    Head of the department of Biology at University of Rhode Island:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Evan+Preisser

    49 publications on pubmed. Far fewer than Balanovsky.

    Associate professor of evolutionary biology at University of Kentucky:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=David+Weisrock

    25 publications.

    So you must be in a particular field that is a publication-mill, or you are simply lying.

    Third, according to the ISI site, most of his papers were cited once, some twice, mostly by his other papers. In particular, the paper you quoted from (Utevska et al, 2013), even though it was published 5 years ago, was cited only once, again, by another of his own papers (also with Utevska as the first author).

    Why would you expect many citations concerning genetic differences between ethnic Ukrianians and ethnic Russians in Slobozhanschina? Is this a topic that many studies are concerned with? Are you really that dumb that you expect many citations of a study on this topic?

    For the uninitiated, this means that his peers don’t take his papers seriously and don’t believe a word he is publishing

    No, it means that this is a generally obscure topic without a lot of people writing about it, and thus with few citations.

    So, no matter how you slice it or dice it, in the realm of science that person does not exist

    Except he is head of a department at the primary genetic institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences.

    Here he is:

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Oleg_Balanovsky

    4,151 citations.

    By all means, keep digging your hole, Sovok :-)

  218. Mitleser says:
    @AnonFromTN

    All of that combined is very expensive.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  219. AP says:
    @A.A.

    AnonfromTN wrote: “Shoigu or Lavrov do not look Russian, Lavrov doesn’t even have any Russian blood”

    You wrote: Besides, Lavrov is also half Russian ethnically

    You are correct, of course. Perhaps you are starting to realize that AnonfromTN is very clueless about most things.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  220. melanf says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    Is it possible to become Russian without “Russian blood, heritage or ancestry”?

    Artist Alexander Benois wrote in his memoirs “I have not a drop of Russian blood, but I am a Russian painter”. And indeed for Russia he is a Russian artist. There are many such examples. n Russia, nationality is determined by language, culture and self-identification.
    “blood, heritage or ancestry” doesn’t matter.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
  221. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    And yet he’s a (tenured?) professor of genetics, where? Tennessee?? :-)

    • Replies: @AP
  222. @AnonFromTN

    How many of your grad students have emigrated?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  223. @AnonFromTN

    There probably exists different definitions for what a “Russian” is. Some definition may be inclusive of other definitions, while other definitions are exclusionary of other definitions.

    What makes you “Russian”?
    - Ethnicity
    - Citizenship
    - Nationality
    - Ideology
    - Geography
    - Ancestry
    - Language
    - Culture

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Dmitry
  224. @melanf

    Has it always been that way? Being “German” in the past meant ethnicity and blood. Today being “German” means speaking “German” and identifying as “German”.

  225. @Rattus Norwegius

    Today being “German” means speaking “German” and identifying as “German”.

    That’s contested, there’s no consensus on these matters.
    And Russia with its tradition of a multiethnic and multireligious empire (even if with a large ethnic Russian core) isn’t comparable to Germany anyway.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
  226. @Rattus Norwegius

    What makes you “Russian”?

    A Russian soul.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
  227. Mitleser says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    Being “German” in the past meant ethnicity and blood.

    Or not. Many Germans are descendants of Germanized Slavs and Balts.
    Some Germans are descendants of French refugees and captured Muslims.

    Maria Aurora Spiegel aka Fatima

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
    , @DFH
  228. @German_reader

    Assuming that you are a blood German both in body and soul, reproduction must be on the top of your agenda. Does it not?

  229. @Daniel Chieh

    What is a “Russian Soul”?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  230. @Rattus Norwegius

    Something you’d recognize if you’re Russian.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
  231. @Mitleser

    My understanding of German ethnogenesis is:
    Phase 1: Germanic tribes from Scandinavia migrate south
    - Establish themselfes as elite
    - Conquer Celts
    - Language prolification (Germanisation)
    Phase 2: Germanic world meets the Roman world
    - Germanic dominance stops spreading at the Roman border
    - Germanic culture in Roman Germani absorbs Celtic(the more south and west in Germany the higher the Celtic degree of Celtic descent) and Roman(mostly cultural and not genetic) influence.
    Phase 3: Migration Era
    - Germanic warrior elites establish themselfes in Western Europe as the dominant military force. Some swathes of Western Europe also get large scale migration of commoners. Germanic warrior elite merges with the Roman aristocracy creating the Western European aristocracy.
    - German driven from East Germania by Slavs and voluntary migration for better pasture in the west
    Phase 4: Medieveal consolidation of core
    - Germanic dominant minorities have assimilated in Italy, Iberia, parts of Gallia
    - Germanic dominance and culture consolidates in Britain
    - German migration towards the east (Ostsiedlung). Slavs assimilate and intermarry with German migrants.

    A very basic template. Does German Reader agree with my understanding? Or does it need some adjustment?
    @German_reader

  232. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I’m not interested in doxxing people.

    He may or may not be honest about his background.

    He certainly makes a lot of dumb mistakes here, and is unhinged when it comes to Ukrainians, perhaps because Kiev was bombing his relatives in Donbas. So if he is who he claims, his emotions overcome his ability to think. Or, he is simply mediocre but lucky. In the early 90s Sovoks were seen as much more impressive in American academia than they are now and could get decent work based on Sovok credentials, a wave of academic refugees prospered from this.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AnonFromTN
  233. DFH says:
    @Mitleser

    Some Germans are descendants of French refugees and captured Muslims.

    Hence the prevalence of the surname ‘Mohr’ ;^

  234. @Daniel Chieh

    Well, i am completly oblivious to what a “Russian Soul”, but then again i am not Russian. What do you as a fellow non Russian think “Russian Soul” means?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  235. @Dmitry

    For comparison, on the racial Japanese girls, the costumes is actually designed for them

    True – this is the governor of Tokyo in cosplay. 64 and still more fitting for it than Europeans a third of her age:

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  236. @Rattus Norwegius

    An understanding that intangibles can mean a great deal more than an autistic obsession with clarity.

    • Agree: Hyperborean
  237. Mr. Hack says: • Website
    @AP

    I’m actually not interested in doxing people either. My point was that it’s strange (to me at least) that somebody who is supposedly an intelligent college professor in the US has the time or inclination to give vent to his unprincipled Ukranophobic emotions. Comment after comment…blah, blah, blah, ‘Ukrainians are stupid refuse of the world’.blah, blah, blah. :-(

    • Replies: @AP
  238. @Toronto Russian

    Eh. I’ve seen plenty of non-Asian cosplay girls – Bekki Cruel obviously – though I can’t speak to the other Japanese fashions(fairy kei, kogal ,etc). But Sailor Moon itself seems to be worn well by many, it just demands a very specific physique which is more generally Asian. My wife, who cosplays, thinks that most of the outfits basically demand “extremely slightly build w/ small bust.”

    • Replies: @Toronto Russian
  239. Dmitry says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    It’s a little confusing because it’s subtly different to the American system.

    There is Russia – the multinational country.

    All the diverse populations of Russia (they are rossiyane).

    And the population who are specifically Russian by nationality, i.e. the majority (de factor titular) population of Russia (they are russkie) .

    Russia encompasses a variety of different nationalities- all having equal rights and status, and mostly assimilated culturally and linguistically (and through intermarriage, also racially assimilating).

    At the same time, different nationalities are allowed to keep their own nationality status (with designated languages, etc) as they want (however, in Soviet times, native religions did not have this kind of protected status).

    -

    In Soviet times, this bureaucratically fixed by the nationality of the parents. In the case of mixed-nationality marriages (very common), the family/children were allowed to choose whichever nationality of their children they preferred to identify with.*

    Nowadays, it is only in the census (and of course a self-identification).

    -

    So aside from the Russian land and culture encompasses many different nationalities, the Russian nationality itself is gradually absorbing and assimilating many other nationalities.

    For example, Tatars and Jews were heavily absorbed through mixed marriages.

    In Soviet times, this could be measured accurately with data:

    According to the 1988 –89 data, the percentage of mixed marriages among all marriages involving Tatars was 39.0% for Tatar men and even higher — 39.9% for Tatar women; in urban areas such marriages for Tatar women reached 50.5%. It has been estimated that in the mid- 1980s 25.2% Tatars were currently married to Russians (Barkalov and Darsky, 1994, p. 9). Intermarriage has been predominant among Jews. In 1988–89 among all Jews who married, 73.1% men and 62.7% women entered into mixed marriage. In the post-war period rising intermarriage was accompanied by a great increase in the proportion of children born to mixed couples. In 1959, out of all children born to Tatar women, the percentage of children born to mixed couples (we have no data on the number of such marriages) was as low as 8.6%. Twenty years later, in 1979, it was 31.0%, or 3.6 times more. Among the urban Tatar population in 1989 this percentage reached 40.2%. At the same time, in 1989, th percentage of children born to mixed couples among all children born to a Jewish mother reached 59.2%, or 2.2 times more than in 1959. Data on the offspring of mixed Russian-Tatar and Russian Jewish couples show a clear preference for Russian ethnic affiliation of children. Even according to the 1994 microcensus, this was the preference on average for 81% of the children of Russian-Tatar couples, and 89% for those children born to Russian-Jewish couples. The incidence of mixed marriages among Tatars and among Jews reflects their high level of cultural and social assimilation in Russian society.

    .

    As the data from Soviet times shows, the distinct nationalities were effectively being absorbed into the Russian nationality, as the children chose to identify as Russian by nationality.

    In a contemporary generation example:

    Medvedeva – although her father is Armenian by nationality, she is (aside from her status as a honorary Japanese) – actually Russian in all senses (self-identifies as Russian by nationality).

    -
    On the other hand:

    Zagitova – (aside from being honorary Japanese), she is rossiyanka of Tatar nationality –
    i.e. I think she identifies her nationality as Tatar.

    https://pp.userapi.com/c830409/v830409845/10e65e/_P0UF-SCyWw.jpg

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  240. melanf says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    Has it always been that way? Being “German” in the past meant ethnicity and blood. Today being “German” means speaking “German” and identifying as “German”

    In the past, it was necessary to be Orthodox (since the 18th century – Christian) and serve the tsar. The origin didn’t matter. For example, the hero of the Napoleonic wars count Kutaisov was by the origin the Anatolian Turks

  241. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Ok a different photo, if the other doesn’t embed.

    Zagitova – (aside from being honorary Japanese), she is rossiyanka of Tatar nationality –
    i.e. I think she identifies her nationality as Tatar.

    So she is a Russian in the all important sense (while at the same time she can identify as Tatar nationality, if she wants).

  242. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    My point was that it’s strange (to me at least) that somebody who is supposedly an intelligent college professor in the US has the time or inclination to give vent to his unprincipled Ukranophobic emotions.

    Sometimes it’s fun to speculate why people behave oddly or stupidly, as Anonfrom TN does. Well, there are people who left Russia in the 90s and disparage the country they left. It’s a justification, perhaps bitterness, perhaps insecurity. He’s a Ukrainian version of one of those ex-Russians (often Jews) who pour scorn on the place they left. His case is worse because he’s from Sovietized Donbas, his people were being bombed there, or so he says. One can understand his bitterness and rage, which naturally he projects onto others.

    I’m not in academia (pays too little, unless one becomes a master grant-eater) but know people who have gone that route. I know people who left Russia around 1991. At that time a Soviet degree was exotic and valauble and could open doors that the person otherwise would not have deserved to have opened. If such a person managed to avoid screwing up, having gotten through the door he could establish himself comfortably in some academic environment. Sovok system provided a decent theoretical background, after all, compared to the West. Eventually post-doc or grad students do most of the work while the established guy gets his name on publications they work on, expanding his count.

    If he is who he says he is, he probably plays the game well, as Sovok taught people to be cunning and to take advantage of or milk systems. I’ve heard of ex-Sovoks, for example, who had made a lot of money flipping houses in CA during that state’s housing bubble, while being on welfare. Perhaps urban legends but plausible.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  243. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    Also they still use different looking characters for variety:

    Well, this girl from the manga with blue eyes is not a human, but a pagan goddess.

    There is anime which doesn’t give the Japanese characters different hair colours.

    It’s true, but it’s rather atypical for manga/anime. Usually very noticeable Eurocentrism – for example, in “Naruto” the main character has a strong Northern European appearance, but the antipod of a hero similar to the Japanese nobleman.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  244. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    I know a gal here in AZ that emigrated back in the late 90′s with a PhD from Shevchenko University in Biology. She’s really quite gifted and gets invited to Western Europe every summer to take part in seminars and research projects (she’s the envy of her ‘American’ colleagues, no doubt). I’ve often suggested that she parlay her knowledge (proteins, energy producing algaes etc;) into a better paying job in the private sector, but she’s content in her tenured professor’s life. She, is the direct opposite of our friend from Tennessee. She loves her homeland and doesn’t put up with any crap from anybody about Ukraine, whether its her snooty co-researchers in Paris or here at home, even from fellow Ukrainians. Everybody is different. I’m proud of your own efforts to defend Ukraine and its right to develop its own culture and society (like my friend here in AZ). :-)

  245. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    However, it is interesting they still paint the main heroine with rounded eyes.

    Several people (living in China / Japan) told me that round eyes are quite common in East Asia, but just Europeans do not notice because of stereotypes of perception. There are really many photos of East Asians with round eyes, for example:

    but it can be plastic surgery

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Daniel Chieh
    , @DFH
  246. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    It’s true, but it’s rather atypical for manga/anime. Usually very noticeable Eurocentrism – for example, in “Naruto” the main character has a strong Northern European appearance, but the antipod of a hero similar to the Japanese nobleman.

    In relation to the eyes. American artists have treated this theme differently, without “Eurocentrism”.

    In 1998, Disney made “Mulan” (the first American animation with Chinese characters).

    In order to make the heroes look Chinese, the American artists drew the characters with exaggerated wide eyes.

    In some sense, it looks even more unrealistic.

    -

    Now Disney is producing a film version of “Mulan”, and have announced the Chinese actress who will be Mulan.

    Cartoon eyes are about three times larger as a proportion of the face, compared to the real actress who will be Mulan.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  247. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    I think it is true – there is natural variety of eye shape in East Asia (even without plastic surgery).

    The difference in appearance is of course deeper.

    After living in East Asia for some time, travellers’ psychological perception changes and they start to notice more variety in appearance.

    -
    -

    Offtopic.

    Something you can read about Japan, is that bad teeth have been historically and still today, considered beautiful or fashionable.

    I was thinking it is probably why the girl (on the right) is not going to dental surgery.

  248. @melanf

    IMO for artwork, rounded eyes are just going to always be a really popular style, especially if you’re going for “cute.” Even animals traditionally seen as cute, like kittens, are drawn with exaggerated rounded eyes.

    Here, a few years back, there was a little fad of “cute owls” as well for the same reason, even though arguably other birds are a lot more adorable. But big eyes, fluffy goes a long way.

    I actually have round eyes without a slant myself, something that bothered me because to me it actually felt less “Chinese.” I assume that my Mongol admixture has something to do with it, I need to get a proper 23 and Me done someday.

  249. DFH says:
    @melanf

    The girl in the second picture looks very creepy, even more so than ordinary Asian women

  250. @Mr. Hack

    Sorry to disappoint, I don’t hate anyone, Jews and Ukrainians included. As a matter of fact, I am half-Ukrainian ethnically. What’s more, I speak literary (Poltava) Ukrainian better than most Ukrainian “patriots”, and also speak one of the Western Ukrainian dialects, the one spoken around Lvov, where I was born and lived for 5 years.

    FYI, Ukie Nazis or Ukies and Ukrainians are very different things. About 80-90% of normal Ukrainians hate Ukie Nazis and Ukies and don’t buy their lie that Russia attacked Ukraine. The State Department is very much disappointed.

    What you call “Ukrainiphobia” is in fact a sober view of things. Ukie Nazis are trying to create a totally separate nation out of people that can only exist normally as part of common Eastern Slavic community, which includes Russians, Ukrainians, and Belorussians. They are forcing Ukrainian language (now not even real Ukrainian, but their Western dialects, some of which are seriously Polonized, others Germanized) on everybody in that unfortunate country, which the US was trying to use as an anti-Russian ram, only belatedly realizing that this would-be ram is rotten to the core.

    Besides, more than half of Ukraine residents (as tricky Google “non-question” recently showed) have Russian as their mother tongue. There are also people speacking Hungarian, Romanian, Bulgarian, etc., on all of whom the Nazis try to impose “Ukrainian-only” rule. That’s why Hungary is blocking Ukraine-NATO meetings for at least a year now. BTW, there were also people speaking Crimean Tatar, which became an official language in Crimea only after it joined Russia.

    If I weren’t Ukrainian, I wouldn’t give a hoot: who cares when a tribe you have no connection to decides to ruin its country? You see it as a simple Darwinian event: the survival of the fittest among countries, just like among all living forms. However, as a Ukrainian I deeply resent that Ukie Nazis and Ukies turned what could have been a country into a cesspool. They even created negative feelings towards melodious and beautiful Ukrainian language, which the whole USSR used to sing songs in. Today in Donbass you can be punched in the face for speaking Ukrainian. I was appalled to see how people in Crimea recoil when you speak Ukrainian. It is not as bad in Russia, as Russia tends to be non-nationalistic, but I am afraid it might come to that even there.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  251. @Mitleser

    Losing your country due to the loss of population is even more expensive.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  252. @Rattus Norwegius

    Depends what you mean by that. Three of my grad students were born in the USA, one was born in big China, and one in Sicily. All work in the US now.

  253. Mitleser says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Yes, that is why the notion that the government is not concerned wrong.
    There is no easy way to increase population that does not have severe downsides attached to them.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  254. @Mitleser

    A realistic cost for each child in the first world is a quarter million, I remember reading. I don’t see any government willing to pony up that much.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  255. melanf says:
    @AP

    Correct. And he is right. But he also points out that although Ukrainians….. I think it’s very funny that you agreed with Liar from TN whne he claimed Balanovsky’s paper was some kind of Ukrainian pseudoscience:

    Balanovsky specially for you (or perhaps about you?):

    Но как раз эта грань, когда генетический вариант приравнивается к народу. То есть когда говорится, что один генетический вариант — главный, это как бы главный корень, главная нитка, которая нам всe расскажет. А все остальные как бы чужие нитки, которые потом вплелись в этот ковeр. Вот это не просто ненаучный, а действительно лженаучный, как бы теневой взгляд на ту же самую проблему. Как есть реальная картина мира, а есть некие пародии, “Дьявол — обезьяна Бога”, вот такой подход, где вроде бы оперируют теми же самыми терминами, но упрощается до такой степени, что правда становится ложью. Ведь в любой качественной лжи должно быть очень много правды, иначе ей никто не поверит

    https://scisne.net/a-2288

    And this is also Balanovsky

    I fully agree with TN not about Balanovsky, but that Ukrainian “science” is pseudoscience. Of course I don’t mean math or chemistry, but the “national-oriented” garbage

    • Replies: @AP
  256. @Daniel Chieh

    Well, Germany’s government does spend huge sums on certain kinds of “children”:

    https://www.merkur.de/lokales/fuerstenfeldbruck/fuerstenfeldbruck-ort65548/zwoelf-junge-fluechtlinge-und-ihr-schicksal-9965648.html

    It’s an article about unaccompanied “minors” from places like Somalia, Afghanistan, Eritrea etc., with a dozen cases as examples, how they are doing in education/employment (mostly bad), and how much social services have spent on them. In every single case it’s well above 100 000 Euros (in four of the cases close to 180 000 Euros).

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  257. AP says:
    @melanf

    Why do you believe this contradicts what I write?

    I fully agree with TN not about Balanovsky, but that Ukrainian “science” is pseudoscience. Of course I don’t mean math or chemistry, but the “national-oriented” garbage

    All nationalist “science” is suspect, I agree. Ukrainian, as well as Russian, etc. Often Ukrainian and Russian nationalist garbage even follow the same story, such as when the target is Poland.

    The Balkans produce especially funny examples.

    Now, do you have a problem with the conclusions from the paper that AnonfromTN accuses to be pseudocscience?

    I’ll repeat it for you:

    ttps://link.springer.com/article/10.3103/S0095452715040106

    In general, the Ukrainian and Russian populations of Slobozhanshchina are very close genetically; their set and frequency range of Y-chromosome haplogroups are typical for Eastern Europe. However, a detailed analysis of highly informative Y-chromosome markers showed that both nations retain the ethnic specificity of their gene pools after 3.5 centuries of coexistence in the same historical territory: the Ukrainian populations are similar to the rest of Ukraine, and Russian populations gravitate towards the south of European Russia.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Rattus Norwegius
  258. @AP

    I like your fantasies. But, as everything you write, they aren’t true. I came to the States having only 8 papers in PubMed. This was enough to get a post-doctoral position in a good lab. The rest of my 200+ papers, Tenure, Professor, and Endowed Chair were earned here in the US. But keep fantasizing: what else is left to the followers of the losers in WWII? Don’t forget to praise your “heroes” Bandera and Shuhevych, they served Hitler to the best of their ability (which wasn’t much, but they cannot be blamed for that).

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Rattus Norwegius
  259. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    So no answer to your stupidity being revealed when you were trying to disparage Balanovsky’s work. You hide from that discussion now :-)

    Here it is, Sovok:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/russians-dont-want-incompatible-immigrants/#comment-2386541

    Don’t forget to praise your “heroes” Bandera and Shuhevych

    I don’t like either one of them, and never have. How do you like your hero Stalin?

    I like your fantasies. But, as everything you write, they aren’t true. I came to the States having only 8 papers in PubMed. This was enough to get a post-doctoral position in a good lab. The rest of my 200+ papers, Tenure, Professor, and Endowed Chair were earned here in the US

    So you claim. When it comes to verified facts about anything, such as Balanovsky’s alleged 11 publications on pubmed, what language is spoken in Ukraine, Lavrov’s ethnicity, anything at all – you fail.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
  260. melanf says:
    @AP

    I’ll repeat it for you …”a detailed analysis of highly informative Y-chromosome markers”

    I’ll repeat it for you
    “То есть когда говорится, что один генетический вариант — главный, это как бы главный корень, главная нитка, которая нам всe расскажет. А все остальные как бы чужие нитки, которые потом вплелись в этот ковeр. Вот это не просто ненаучный, а действительно лженаучный, как бы теневой взгляд на ту же самую проблему. ”

    I can also “repeat” the picture posted above. You understand what is meant “Ru”, “Ukr”, and “Bel”?

    • Replies: @AP
  261. @AP

    I am ignorant on the subject at hand. Still, do you not think that due to Russians having intermarried heavily with Finno-Ugrics, that Russians appear to be more different than Poles are to Ukrainians? Different as in Russians have intermarried with a more genetically distinct population, something that Ukrainians have not, atleast comparativly. This means that from a point of view of ethnogenesis, that Russians can be more closely related to Ukraians than Poles, even if Poles are more genetically similar to Ukrainians.

    • Replies: @AP
  262. @AnonFromTN

    Maybe USSR won the war. But that is not enough. It is more important in the long run to win the peace. The peace in the aftermath of WW2 was won by USA. This is because the Americans spent the least and gained the most from the war. USSR on the otherhand lost over 20 million people and had karge swathes of it’s territory in ruins.

    • Replies: @AP
  263. @AP

    Unrelated, but what is bad or wrong about Sovok’s?

    • Replies: @AP
  264. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    You know, the more I analyze your Ukrainophobic nonsense, the more I’m beginning to suspect that you’re not really a working biologist at all, but some sort of a semi-sophisticated troll hatched out of a test tube somewhere in St. Petersburg. Your incessant fixation with the dreaded ‘Ukro-Nazis’ is a dead give away. This type of language is starting to disappear with only a few old school Russophiles like the Saker still using it. Even Karlin stays away from using this type of nomenclature, knowing full well that he’d be laughed out of town if he started to use it. You’re probably some sort of elderly ex-biologist who gets paid a pittance, and after a hard day of trolling others about the imaginary ‘Ukro-Nazis’ and your illustrious career as an American biologist, sits on a park bench eating his dried vobla and washing it down with his zhiguli beer. Smachnoho! :-)

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AnonFromTN
  265. @Mr. XYZ

    Also, do you think that large-scale Chinese immigration to the West will stop once China’s quality of life and GDP per capita will reach Western European levels?

    I don’t even have to think, it’s already happening. Vast majority of Chinese students in the US go back to China at the end of their studies. Not the case just ten years ago.

    As for the cognitive elite part, does that mean that you think that it was a mistake for the U.S. to import a lot of Jews in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as well as to import a lot of Asians after 1965?

    If I was a White American living in the US at that time, I would have probably voted against it, if anyone had asked me.

    Also, does this mean that you would have approved of measures in Tsarist times which compelled a lot of Jews to emigrate from Tsarist Russia (such as the anti-Semitic Pale of Settlement and anti-Jewish affirmative action)?

    Not the Pale of Settlement, but yes, I would have supported pro-indigenous majority affirmative action.

    As for the genetic IQ augmentation part, do you think that we will see significant results in regards to this in our own lifetimes?

    People I have talked to who I have cause to believe know what they’re talking about believe that the bulk of the technological problems will be solved by the mid-2020s.

    Of course, there might be unforeseen stumbling blocks. And we have no idea what regulatory policies will look like.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
  266. @melanf

    The enduring popularity of half-Korean Victor Tsoi would certainly speak to this (as well as the general acceptance of Asiatic intermarriage).

    Having married into a Volga-Uralic culture I would say that their racial hierarchy would be: their own, Russians/other Euro whites, Siberians/East Asians and certain (esp Christian) Kavkaz good…and Jews, Chechens, Africans and pretty much everyone else bad.

    Not scientific, just anecdotal.

  267. @A.A.

    As far as I can tell the (more siberian than Finns but still white) Christianized Volga peoples (incorporated into Russia in the 1500s generally) consider themselves Russian, especially the younger generations. They are culturally entirely Russian with the exception of the older folks knowing the native language and singing native songs after drinking.

    Those inexperienced with Russia wouldn’t even be able to tell them apart from Russians as a general matter (I thought my wife was Russian when I married her) to your point.

  268. @Hyperborean

    It’s quite simple.

    Swedes are natural religious fanatics, and the current religion is the poz.

    In twenty years Sweden will be a nazi state.

  269. @DNC

    The Germans still leave for Germany.

  270. @Mightypeon

    The bit of “Russia” that Korea bordered was more generally known as China.

  271. AP says:
    @melanf

    As I already said, I don’t disagree with what you posted. Unlike you I answer questions.

    So you refuse to directly answer my question. Please try again:

    Now, do you have a problem with the conclusions from the paper that AnonfromTN accuses to be pseudocscience?

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.3103/S0095452715040106

    In general, the Ukrainian and Russian populations of Slobozhanshchina are very close genetically; their set and frequency range of Y-chromosome haplogroups are typical for Eastern Europe. However, a detailed analysis of highly informative Y-chromosome markers showed that both nations retain the ethnic specificity of their gene pools after 3.5 centuries of coexistence in the same historical territory: the Ukrainian populations are similar to the rest of Ukraine, and Russian populations gravitate towards the south of European Russia.

    • Replies: @melanf
  272. AP says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    Still, do you not think that due to Russians having intermarried heavily with Finno-Ugrics, that Russians appear to be more different than Poles are to Ukrainians?

    With Russians there are two types genetically: northern Russians are mixed with Finnic peoples, and southern/central Russians are very similar to Ukrainians and Poles. Southern/central Russians are much more like Poles and Ukrainians than they are like northern Russians.

    Different as in Russians have intermarried with a more genetically distinct population, something that Ukrainians have not, atleast comparativly. This means that from a point of view of ethnogenesis, that Russians can be more closely related to Ukraians than Poles, even if Poles are more genetically similar to Ukrainians.

    Yes, this makes sense. IIRC those northern Russians may be more related to Ukrainians more than to Poles, as the non-Finnic component originated from east Slavs (kind of like how Mexican Mestizos are more related to Spaniards than are Italians, although Italians look more like Spaniards). However I could be wrong here, as I don’t have time to review the studies.

  273. AP says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    Plus USSR had an inefficient and stupid system further holding it back. In the early 20th century Russia was poised to eventually become the global dominant power. The Revolution and then Communism was a massive own goal (albeit helped by foreign enemies).

  274. @Mr. Hack

    I have no intention of disabusing you of you fantasy, if it helps you to while away a dreary evening in Zmerinka.

  275. @Mr. Hack

    So, the US Congress must be laughed out of town when it recently banned transfer of US weapons to a neo-Nazi Unkrainian battalion:

    http://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis

    Call them ASAP.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  276. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Well, 3 out of of the last 4 years the Azov Battalion did get funded. Do you have roots in Donbas? You know that the Azov Batallion is famous, for it includes a majority of its ranks from local inhabitants. I’m personally not a big fan of theirs (primarily due to their attachment to Nazi insignia), however, its still not too late for you to sign up. No matter what, it is a local Donbas formation.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  277. @Mr. Hack

    Sorry to disappoint, but the US Congress banned Azov funding more than once because that battalion is openly Nazi

    https://www.unian.info/politics/1907764-us-congress-says-no-aid-to-azov-battalion.html

  278. melanf says:
    @AP

    Now, do you have a problem with the conclusions from the paper that AnonfromTN accuses to be pseudocscience?

    No, I don’t think the article is pseudoscience. But the interpretation of this article in this discussion is definitely pseudoscience (I gave you a quote of Balanovsky on this topic)

    • Replies: @AP
  279. melanf says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I think China needs a Russian artistic elite more than Russia needs a foreign cognitive elite.

    In the St. Petersburg Academy of arts a lot of students from China. Probably a third of all students. Here is their final work (a few of the many)

  280. @Anatoly Karlin

    Not the Pale of Settlement, but yes, I would have supported pro-indigenous majority affirmative action.

    Would you support affirmative action in present day Russia? In what areas of society would affirmative action be usefull?

    Perhaps something similar to BEE in South Africa could be implemented in Russia? It could be called “Slavic Economic Empowerment”.

    Would affirmative action be more detrimental than benefical?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  281. @Rattus Norwegius

    Better to focus on combatting the pernicious influence of oligarchs and organised crime, spheres in which ethnic Russians are underrepresented.

  282. @Daniel Chieh

    You married well.
    Yes, Caucasian girls can be small and thin of course, but the “transsexual” issue is about their faces – too long and angular for super-girly anime dresses. Asian girls are more soft-faced. Audrey Hepburn would possibly wear cosplay well because of her unusually delicate features. She did have a scene in a similar eccentric costume:

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @melanf
    , @melanf
    , @Dmitry
  283. AP says:
    @melanf

    I quoted conclusions and raw data directly. Please address those quotes and data.

    You have a problem with it how?

    In general, the Ukrainian and Russian populations of Slobozhanshchina are very close genetically; their set and frequency range of Y-chromosome haplogroups are typical for Eastern Europe. However, a detailed analysis of highly informative Y-chromosome markers showed that both nations retain the ethnic specificity of their gene pools after 3.5 centuries of coexistence in the same historical territory: the Ukrainian populations are similar to the rest of Ukraine, and Russian populations gravitate towards the south of European Russia.

    Is bolded accurate or not?

    But the interpretation of this article in this discussion is definitely pseudoscience

    You seem to be unaware of my “interpretation” if you make this false claim. Explain yourself please.

    My original statement:

    Ukrainians are fairly uniform genetically. Ethnics Ukrainians even from Russian territory (Belgorod) are more similar to ones from Lviv than they are to their Russian neighbors

    Note the word I bolded. By similarity I referred specifically to genetics. The post I responded to was:

    “With the exception of far western Ukraine around Lviv, right? My understanding is that many people’s genetics there are substantially Polish”

    I corrected that misconception.

    You think my correction was pseudoscience?

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @melanf
  284. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    I don’t think that you need a graduate school degree in biology to understand your response AP, even though your detractors can’t seem to figure it out after several tries on your part to get the message through. :-)

  285. This graph is actually a sad comment on European affairs. Any European country should have at least 60% of resounding NO answers.

    There is something essentially rotten in all this: http://diversitymachtfrei.blogspot.com/2016/05/the-problem-with-feminism-why.html

  286. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    When Russian girls are trying to cosplay Japanese cartoons – aside from weirdness, most of them are looking like transsexuals.

    Here is Moscow cranks have fun (how I can judge this cosplay of anime)

    As you can see, the Europids are quite capable of cosplay

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  287. melanf says:
    @Toronto Russian

    Yes, Caucasian girls can be small and thin of course, but the “transsexual” issue is about their faces – too long and angular for super-girly anime dresses. Asian girls are more soft-faced.

    If by “Caucasian” girls mean europids, then among them there are many soft-faced

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  288. melanf says:
    @AP

    But the interpretation of this article in this discussion is definitely pseudoscience

    You seem to be unaware of my “interpretation” if you make this false claim. Explain yourself please.
    My original statement:
    Ukrainians are fairly uniform genetically.

    uniform genetically? Really? In this case, explain to me, why in these two maps impossible to see the boundaries of the “genetically uniform” Ukraine?

    Or explain the diagram from Balanovsky I mentioned above?
    What you write is the same pseudoscience that Balanovsky so clearly spoke about.

    • Replies: @AP
  289. melanf says:
    @Toronto Russian

    You married well.

    Oh, yeah, I can’t disagree. Really beauty

  290. Mitleser says:
    @melanf

    Looks like integration of Russia into Greater Asia will work out.

    • Replies: @melanf
  291. melanf says:
    @Mitleser

    Looks like integration of Russia into Greater Asia will work out.

    If we follow Gumilev’s ideas, Russia should integrate with Mongolia and (to a lesser extent) with Kazakhstan. According to Gumilev, successful integration with Uzbekistan and Tajikistan is impossible.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  292. Dmitry says:
    @Toronto Russian

    Perfect for cosplay would be French actress Isabelle Adjani (when she was young).

    Or American actress Winona Ryder

  293. @melanf

    According to Gumilev, successful integration with Uzbekistan and Tajikistan is impossible.

    What’s the difference between them and Mongolia/Kazakhstan in his view?

    • Replies: @melanf
  294. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    It’s true, some are successfully looking completely like anime.

    -

    But it’s more common for cosplayer teenagers to look like. However – they’re meeting new friends so it’s still a good hobby for them.

  295. melanf says:
    @German_reader

    What’s the difference between them and Mongolia/Kazakhstan in his view?

    Gumilev divided the world into different civilizations, one of which is a separate “steppe” civilization (i.e. the civilization of the nomads of Eurasia). According to Gumilev, Russia (part of the Orthodox civilization) is ideally “complimentary” to the steppe civilization, but poorly compatible with Islamic civilization.
    Because of this (according to Gumilev) the Mongols are the best friends of the Russians, the Kazakhs are also friends (but worse than the Mongols, because they accepted Islam).
    But the settled agricultural Islamic peoples are poorly compatible with Russia.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  296. @melanf

    Thanks, I hadn’t known that, thought “Eurasianism” was about amalgamation with Islamic central Asia.

    • Replies: @AP
  297. AP says:
    @melanf

    Review what “fairly uniform” means.

    Source for these maps? IIRC you had earlier posted fake maps. I am not stating these maps are also fake, but I would like a source. The maps you posted are discussed here:

    http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5217175/1/

    “These are from a diy blog from observing pictures in google I think.”

    You post dubious maps as evidence, I post an academic paper co-authored by Balanovsky.

    For the fourth time you refuse to directly address the specific statement from the summary I provided:

    “In general, the Ukrainian and Russian populations of Slobozhanshchina are very close genetically; ”

    So, even Russians and Ukrainians are fairly uniform, as I stated.

    Again:

    “their set and frequency range of Y-chromosome haplogroups are typical for Eastern Europe. However, a detailed analysis of highly informative Y-chromosome markers showed that both nations retain the ethnic specificity of their gene pools after 3.5 centuries of coexistence in the same historical territory: the Ukrainian populations are similar to the rest of Ukraine, and Russian populations gravitate towards the south of European Russia.”

    So Ukrainians are even more uniform with other Ukrainians than they are with Russians, though both two groups are very close genetically to each other.

    Agree or will you avoid it again because agreement with straightforward facts is hard?

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @melanf
  298. AP says:
    @German_reader

    Thanks, I hadn’t known that, thought “Eurasianism” was about amalgamation with Islamic central Asia.

    Not with urban settled Islamic central Asia but with steppe central Asia that also includes Muslims (Kazakhs, Tatars, Bashkirs). However IIRC they want a Russian-Islamic alliance against the West.

  299. @Dmitry

    In anime there is a distinction between tsurime (upwards-going eyes) and tareme (downwards-going eyes).

    I think most East Asians are closer to tsuri-style eyes than tareme, but when I see girls with tare-style eyes they tend to look cute.

  300. @German_reader

    The younger age cohorts are substantially non-European and substantially Muslim, increasing as one goes down the age ladder. Therefore, we’d need to know the background of those younger people taking the survey. Of course the Muslim young people living in Germany will say “yes, Islam belongs to Germany.” What do actual German youth — the few that there are — think about it?

  301. melanf says:
    @AP

    Source for these maps?

  302. melanf says:
    @AP

    Sorry, a technical glitch on my computer

    ource for these maps?

    Here is the data on Ukraine (I do not know what data was used for the map, but it is irrelevant, as it is easy to find data on the anthropological heterogeneity of Ukraine). The color of hair and eyes in different areas is different.

    I post an academic paper co-authored by Balanovsky.

    Above graph from academic paper co-authored by Balanovsky.
    As you can see, the population of Ukrainians is closer to the Russian population than to other populations of Ukrainians.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AnonFromTN
  303. AP says:
    @melanf

    You still refused to answer my specific questions.

    The first map is from a 70 year old source. I guess it’s better than your fake maps.

    http://litopys.org.ua/segeda/se03.htm

    Above graph from academic paper co-authored by Balanovsky.

    Link?

    Now for the fifth time, try not to hide from the simple questions:

    From paper co-authored by Balanovsky: “In general, the Ukrainian and Russian populations of Slobozhanshchina are very close genetically; ”

    So, even Russians and Ukrainians are fairly uniform, as I stated.

    Correct?

    Again:

    “their set and frequency range of Y-chromosome haplogroups are typical for Eastern Europe. However, a detailed analysis of highly informative Y-chromosome markers showed that both nations retain the ethnic specificity of their gene pools after 3.5 centuries of coexistence in the same historical territory: the Ukrainian populations are similar to the rest of Ukraine, and Russian populations gravitate towards the south of European Russia.”

    So Ukrainians are even more uniform with other Ukrainians than they are with Russians, though both two groups are very close genetically to each other.

    Agree or will you avoid it again because agreement with straightforward facts is hard?

  304. @melanf

    It makes sense to argue with humans, including Ukrainians, but arguing with Ukies is totally useless, like having heart-to-heart conversation with a lamppost.

    • Replies: @AP
  305. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Your excuse after your idiocy was exposed. Remind us again about your stupid claim about Balanovsky being a quack who writes pseudoscience?

    Here is your failed attempt:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/russians-dont-want-incompatible-immigrants/#comment-2386541

    Second, that “Balanovsky OP” person does have only 11 entries in PubMed. For comparison: my grad students (all of whom graduated before they reached 30 years of age) have 22, 10, and 8 papers from my lab in PubMed.

    1. You are dumb as usual. “Oleg Balanovsky” yields 74 results on pubmed.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=oleg+balanovsky

    2. Utevska has 11 publications on PubMed.

    Out of curiosity, I looked up random professors. Here is a full professor of biology from SUNY- Plattsburgh (Slish DF):

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Slish+DF

    8 results on pub med! I gues by your standards they don’t hire anybody there.

    Head of the department of Biology at University of Rhode Island:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Evan+Preisser

    49 publications on pubmed. Far fewer than Balanovsky.

    Associate professor of evolutionary biology at University of Kentucky:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=David+Weisrock

    25 publications.

    So you must be in a particular field that is a publication-mill, or you are simply lying.

    :::::::

    Sovok doesn’t want to keep digging his hole? :-)

  306. melanf says:

    The first map is from a 70 year old source. I guess it’s better than your fake maps.

    What’s the point?
    I didn’t understand your “answer”. Clear your mind. Do you think that 70 years ago, scientists were not able to determine the color of hair and eyes?

    Link?

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135820

    However, a detailed analysis of highly informative Y-chromosome markers showed that both nations retain the ethnic specificity of their gene pools after 3.5 centuries of coexistence in the same historical territory: the Ukrainian populations are similar to the rest of Ukraine, and Russian populations gravitate towards the south of European Russia.”
    So Ukrainians are even more uniform with other Ukrainians than they are with Russians

    For this chromosome is so, and for other chromosomes is not so (as you can see from the works of the same Balanovsky).
    On specially selected fragments of genes, you can get any map of kinship. Here’s an example: map of the chromosome group of the N. Finns “genetically uniform” with the Chukchis.You are trying to build a convenient for you theory on one fragment, ignoring the other, i.e. doing the same pseudoscience about which said Balanovsky.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @AP
  307. melanf says:
    @melanf

    The first map is from a 70 year old source. I guess it’s better than your fake maps.

    In addition, you ignore the fact that genetics specifically selected for research “pure-blood” people. But on the territory of the former “wild field” the population is obviously mixed.

    also, if Balanovsky for you now authority-declared by you connection of genes and a nationality according to Balanovsky full nonsense.

    Here’s a figure skater Anna Pogorelaya


    - who is she in your opinion, if Anna Ukrainian origin, but does not consider himself a Ukrainian?

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @AP
  308. melanf says:
    @melanf

    By eye color-specially for you

    Ukrainians. .. in a whole differing (from Russians) by more dark pigmentation of hair and eye ….there is also a type (of Ukrainians), characterized (according to Nikolaev) by a very large percentage of light eyes. This type is typical for the Ukrainian population of the northeastern part of the USSR and is similar in a number of ways to the type of Russian from neighboring regions of the RSFSR.

    Рогинский Я.Я., Левин М.Г. «Антропология», 1978

    Well, how do you explain the existence (among the genetically “uniforms” Ukrainians) of the light-eyed population of the northeastern part of the USSR?

    • Replies: @AP
  309. AP says:
    @melanf

    For this chromosome is so, and for other chromosomes is not so (as you can see from the works of the same Balanovsky

    Reread the paper. It was chromosome markers. Plural. It was for gene pools, not frequency of one type of marker. Your map of haplogroup “N” (one marker) is thus not analogous to what was studied. This study looked at ratios of numerous markers. The results of this study, which showed that the ratio of numerous chromosome markers made Belgorod Ukrainians closer to Lviv Ukrainians than to Belgorod Russians was not “pseudoscience about which said Balanovsky.”

    Link?

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135820

    The table you posted was not in this link from Balanovsky’s article.

    :::::::::::

    Once again, I stated that (southern) Russians and Ukrainians are fairly uniform. Do you agree?

    I also stated, based on the paper that Balanovsky co-authored, that although Ukrainian and Russians are fairly uniform, they are also discrete from each other, and that genetically even Ukrainians from Belgorod Russia are closer to Ukrainians from Lviv than they are to Russians from Belgorod.

    This is based on this conclusion:

    However, a detailed analysis of highly informative Y chromosome markers showed that both nations retain the ethnic specificity of their gene pools after 3.5 centuries of coexistence in the same historical territory: the Ukrainian populations are similar to the rest of Ukraine, and Russian populations gravitate towards the south of European Russia.

    Here are details showing differences:

    Despite the general picture of Y chromosome polymorphism being similar, the Ukrainians and Russians somewhat differed from each other in the frequency ranges of major haplogroups (Table 2, Fig. 1). Thus, the most frequent haplogroup R1a M198, which is typical for East Europe [22], occurred in approximately 60% of the Russians, meanwhile its frequency in the Ukrainians proved to be less than 40% (the statistical significance of distinctions is p < 0.001). In comparison with the Ukrainians, the Russians had a twice greater frequency of haplogroup N1cM178 (p = 0.0497), which is characteristic of the Finno Ugric, Baltic, and North Russian populations in the Baltic Ural region [6, 23–26]. Meanwhile, in comparison with the Russians, the Ukrainians proved to have higher frequencies of haplogroups 12aP37 (by a factor of 1.3, p = 0.0374) and E1bM35 (by a factor of more than 6, p = 0.0002), which reach the greatest frequencies in the European space in the Balkans [27, 28]. In addition, haplogroup R1bM269, which has a frequency maximum in West Europe, occurred more often in the Ukrainians (by a factor of more than 2.5, p = 0.0087) [29].

    Figure 2 presents the results of the cluster analysis, which reflect the mutual location of
    the South Russian, West Ukrainian, and East Ukrainian populations depending on their genetic similarity in Y chromosome polymorphism. The dendrogram has two well marked clusters (Ukrainian and South Russian). The Russians proved to be more homogenous in Y chromosome markers than the Ukrainians: the average genetic distance between the indicated Russian populations was d = 0.016, meanwhile it was a factor of 1.5 greater between the Ukrainian populations (d = 0.025). However, the “interethnic” genetic distances (between the Ukrainians and Russians) were several times higher than the “intraethnic” distances (on average, d = 0.062), which resulted in distinguishing ethnically specific clusters.

    So do you agree that genetically, by gene pools, Ukrainians even in Belgorod or eastern Ukraine are more like other Ukrainians (even ones from Lviv) than like their Russian neighbors, as this paper states?

    • Replies: @melanf
  310. AP says:
    @melanf

    It seems that rather than answer simple, straightforward questions you prefer to post fake maps, old maps, and pictures of random people. But I answer all of your questions and concerns. Because I am writing honestly and in good faith.

    you ignore the fact that genetics specifically selected for research “pure-blood” people.

    Well, we are discussing Ukrainians or Russians not half-Ukrainians, are we? But there are plenty of unmixed Ukrainians and Russians even in this region, for there to be a study.

    It’s the same when they looked at north Russians vs. south Russians. They did not select half-north Russians but pure-blooded people. That’s why they took their samples from villages, not Moscow City. So?

    As has been proven, a Ukrainian even from Belgorod oblast, Russia is genetically more like a Ukrainian from Lviv than he like a Russian from Belgorod Russia.

    if Balanovsky for you now authority

    I always considered him an authority. He is not perfect, because on one paper the raw data and table did not match the summary statement. That was sloppy. Perhaps if that paper had undergone peer review this discrepancy would have been clarified. But he is still a good authority.
    You now invent a fantasy that I called him fake or something.

  311. AP says:
    @melanf

    Well, how do you explain the existence (among the genetically “uniforms” Ukrainians) of the light-eyed population of the northeastern part of the USSR?

    Even genetically very uniform people can show differences in eye color. Sibling, or parents and children, are very close genetically but may have different color eyes. My nephew has blue eyes and both his parents have dark eyes despite him getting all of his genes from his parents.

    And you are comparing people of different regions from the nation.

    Meanwhile you ignore conclusions of research paper co-authored by Balanovsky that concludes that Ukrainians are even more uniform with other Ukrainians than they are with Russians, though both two groups are very close genetically to each other.

  312. Gerard2 says:
    @Mr. Hack

    We’ve been through this before, and Yushchenko was speaking in Ukrainian (in a 3 minute clip he included one discernible Russian word). It’s obvious that you’re fixated on your own past bloopers. Get a life, or better yet, get a brain

    It’s obvious you Nazi morons living thousands of miles away in shame from Ukraine……have no idea what “Ukrainian” is.

  313. melanf says:
    @AP

    this graph I mentioned abovejust exactly from academic paper co-authored by Balanovsky.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135820

    (Fig 2. Genetic structure of the Balto-Slavic populations within a European context according to the three genetic systems… c) MDS based on mtDNA data )

    As you can see, the populations of Ukrainians (according to this graph MDS based on mtDNA data from academic paper co-authored by Balanovsky) is closer to the Russian populations than to other populations of Ukrainians.

    ______________________________________________

    I will try to explain “на пальцах” (specially for Ukrainian patriots) why your ideas are pseudoscientific. Here is a descendant of A. S. Pushkin, count Georg von Merenberg.
    As a descendant of Pushkin, he inevitably has genes of African origin. If we analyze these genes (ignoring all other genes), we will find that count Georg von Merenberg uniform geneticalу with Zulus and Yoruba.

    That’s exactly your method. You as obsessed fetishist twenty times in a row post a fragment of the work of Balanovsky (which you think confirms your wet dreams), ignore other data (in particular from the works of the same Balanovsky – for example graph mentioned above), I have already given you a very clear statement of the Balanovsky that this method-pseudoscience.

    • Replies: @AP
  314. AP says:
    @melanf

    this graph I mentioned above

    I wasn’t discussing the graph but the table, that wasn’t in the article.

    Pay attention.

    Fig 2. Genetic structure of the Balto-Slavic populations within a European context according to the three genetic systems… c) MDS based on mtDNA data

    So maternal ancestry. The paper I was discussing was paternal ancestry – y-haplogroups.

    You chose not to post that graph :-)

    Look at graph “B”. Do you notice that Ukrainians all cluster together, and are closer to Belarussians and Slovaks than to Russians?

    Melanf, you post a fragment of the work of Balanovsky (which you think confirms your wet dreams), ignore other data.

    As you can see, the populations of Ukrainians (according to this graph MDS based on mtDNA data from academic paper co-authored by Balanovsky) is closer to the Russian populations than to other populations of Ukrainians.

    Which number was which location on the graph of maternal ancestry?

    As a descendant of Pushkin, he inevitably has genes of African origin. If we analyze these genes (ignoring all other genes), we will find that count Georg von Merenberg uniform geneticalу with Zulus and Yoruba.

    That’s exactly your method.

    Nonsense.

    It is your method when you posted stuff about eye color.

    You either aren’t paying attention or are being dishonest.

    The results indicate analyses of multiple chromosomes collectively indicating paternal ancestry, not one.

    Again,and not a snippet:

    Figure 2 presents the results of the cluster analysis, which reflect the mutual location of
    the South Russian, West Ukrainian, and East Ukrainian populations depending on their genetic similarity in Y chromosome polymorphism. The dendrogram has two well marked clusters (Ukrainian and South Russian). The Russians proved to be more homogenous in Y chromosome markers than the Ukrainians: the average genetic distance between the indicated Russian populations was d = 0.016, meanwhile it was a factor of 1.5 greater between the Ukrainian populations (d = 0.025). However, the “interethnic” genetic distances (between the Ukrainians and Russians) were several times higher than the “intraethnic” distances (on average, d = 0.062), which resulted in distinguishing ethnically specific clusters.

    Note: “markers.” Plural. It is a pattern of several markers.

    Do you understand now?

    And note this conclusion:

    the “interethnic” genetic distances (between the Ukrainians and Russians) were several times higher than the “intraethnic” distances (on average, d = 0.062), which resulted in distinguishing ethnically specific clusters.

    Analysis involved multiple markers indicating paternal ancestry. Belgorod Ukrainians closer to Lviv Ukrainians than to Belgorod Russians on paternal ancestry. Collective paternal ancestry on multiple markers.

    Agree? Yes or no?

    Or will I have to post it a third or a 20th time? Will we have to use our fingers?

    The other chart might mean that in terms of maternal ancestry there is little difference. If so, the full picture would be that in terms of paternal ancestry Belgorod Ukrainians moire like Lviv Ukrainians than like Belgorod Russians, but in terms of maternal ancestry they are more like Belgorod Russians, or equally distant, or whatever.

    Since paternal differences remain constant, it indicates that the populations (at least in rural areas) hadn’t mixed after settlement.

    I have already given you a very clear statement of the Balanovsky that this method-pseudoscience

    No, you have repeatedly dodged the questions because admitting reality is hard for you.

    So let’s try again. Answer each question specifically:

    1. I stated that (southern) Russians and Ukrainians are fairly uniform. Do you agree?

    2. I also stated, based on the paper that Balanovsky co-authored, that although Ukrainian and Russians are fairly uniform, they are also discrete from each other, and that genetically even Ukrainians from Belgorod Russia are closer to Ukrainians from Lviv than they are to Russians from Belgorod, when it comes to paternal ancestry.

    This is based on this conclusion:

    However, a detailed analysis of highly informative Y chromosome markers showed that both nations retain the ethnic specificity of their gene pools after 3.5 centuries of coexistence in the same historical territory: the Ukrainian populations are similar to the rest of Ukraine, and Russian populations gravitate towards the south of European Russia. Do you agree?

    Can you answer simple questions?

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